08-17-88 Agenda and PacketAGENDA
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 17, 1988, 7:30 P.M.
CHANHASSEN CITY HAIL, 690 COULTER DRIVE
CAIL TO ORDER
OLD BUSINESS
Conditional Use Permit to locate a church in the ruraldistrict on property zoned RR, RuraI Residential Dist.rict andIocated on the east side of Hwy. 41 approximately one milenorth of Hwy. 5, Westside Baptist Church.
I
2 Preliminary Plat to Subdivide 76.5 acres into two lots of
and 10 acres on property zoned A-2, Agricultural Estates,located at 775 West 96th Street, Tim Erhart.
PUBLIC HEARINGS
Conditional Use Permit for a garden center on 3.7 acresproperty zoned BH, Highway Business and located on WestStreet just west of Redmond Products, Jay Kronick.
66.5
and
3 of
78rh
4
5. Contlitional Use Permit for a contractors yaral on 39 acres ofproperty zoned A-2, Agricultural Estate anil located on Hwy.
212, )rtsE west of the Assumption Seminary site, Harry
Lindbery.
** ITE}{ #6 HAS BEEN WITHDRAWN **
6 Preliminary plat to subdivide 1.37 acres into 2 single family
lots of 32,822 and 26,663 square feet on property zoned RSF,
Residential Single Family and located at 7301 Minneawashta
Parkway, just south of l4aple Ridge subdivision, James Jasin.
Zoning Ordinance Amenalment to amend Sections 20-572 and
20-574 of the City Code concerning permitEed and conditional-
uses in the A-2, Agricultural Estate District, City of
Chanhassen.
APPROVAL OF I,TINUTES
OPEN DISCUSSION
7
ADJOU RNMENT
,p;)-!
Wetland Alteration Permit to construct a garden center andholding pond within a Class B wetland on property zoned BIl,
Highway Business and located on West 78th Street just r"rest of
Redmond Products, Jay Kronick and City of Chanhassen.
CITY OF
EHINHISSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
. -(. ./ Ci, ir"rlntsttta
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*J:!I:-96--
MEMORANDUM
TO: Planning Commission and City Council
FROM: Planning Staff
DATE: August 10, 1988
SUBJ: Westside Baptist Church Conditional Use permit
The attached proposal was Eab1ed
Conmission meeting. The body ofsented on JuIy 20, 1988, with adation on Page 4.
rhe July 20, 1988, Planninge report is the same as pre-staff update and recommen-
at
rh
new
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CITY OF
EHflNHISSEtrI
P.C. DATE: July 13, 1988.
_ Aug. 17, 1988C.C. DATEs Sepr. 12, 1988-
CASE NO: BE-9 CUp
Prepared by: Olsen,/v
S'TAFF REPORT
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Conditional Use permit for a Church to be LocatedOutside of the Urban Servi.e ai.i--' -- -'
PROPOSAL:
LOCATION:
APPLICANT:
6801 Hazeltine Boulevard
Westside Baptist Church
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
RR, Rural Residential District
10.04 gross 8.42 net
ADJACENT
AND LAND
ZONING
USE:
WATER AND SEWER:
PEYSTCAL CEARAC.:
2000 LAND USE PLAN 3
N- RR; single family
S- RRi single family and vacant
E- RRi vacant
W- RRi Minnerdashta Regional park
NoL available to the site.
The site contains. a Class A wetland on thenorth portion of. the propeity'iii'.In. r,.r. -Ann Interceptor rs rnstalled through thesrre. There is a steep .i;;.-;;";;"southern porrion _of rhe "iiE-"ii"i..i"heavily vegetated.
Residential Lor,v Dens i ty
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Page 2
Baptist CUP
r988
APPI,ICABLE REGULATIONS
Section 20-594 allows churches asRural Residential District.a conditional use in the RR,
Section 20-259 regulates theoutside of the MUSA line:following conditions for churches
a. The location of tlro acceptable drainfield sites must beprovided on the site.
b. The individual sewage treatment system must be in comfor-mance with Chapter 19, Article IV.
c. SchooL and daycare accessory uses are not permittedunless approved by the City Council.
Section 20-258 regulates churches generally requires:
a. The site shall be located on a collector or arterialroadway.
b
d
The structure must be1ines.setback 50 feet from all property
Parking areas sha1l be setback 25 feet from streets andnon-residential property and 30 feet from residentialproperty .
No more than 708 of the site be covered withsurface and the remainder of the site is to"andscaped in conformance with Article 2S.
i mpervi ou sbe suitably
REEERRAL AGENCIES
At tachmen t
At tachmen t
Attachment
Attachmen t
*2
#3
#4
#s
The ap
squareof the
a cceptis adj
from H
plicant. is proposing to construct approximately a 5,000
.r-ooE cnurch on property zoned RR which is located outsideMUSA l-rne. Therefore, the site would have to provide twoable septsic system sites to support the church.' the siie-acent- to State Highway 4I and wiII have one access pointwy. 41 . There is a large Class A r,vetland located in ttre
Building Inspector
Fire Inspector
Asst. City Engineer
DNR
ANALYSIS
Wes ts ideJuly 13,
Page 3
Baptist CUP
1988
northern portion of the site and the Lake Ann Interceptorbeing constructed approximaEely through the center of theThere is a large stand of mature vegetation on the southof the site vrith a steep slope towards the north.
is
s ite.
port i on
The proposed church is meeting the required setbacks for a churchand is providing adequate parking. Although the site is not inan industrial , commercial or multiple famiLy district, staff isstil1 recommending that the parking area be paved with a bitumi-
nous surface due to the high amount of traffic that will be using
t,he parking area. Staff is also recommending that the parking
area be curbed with bituminous curbing rather than the normally
required concrete curb. The applicant has not provided any addi-
tional landscaping to the site other than the existing vegeta-
tion. As part of the conditional use permit, the site plan is
reguired to provide landscaping as stated in Article 25. This
includes perimeter landscaping, interior 1ot line Iandscaping and
landscaping of the parking area and building. Since it is such a
large site with only a portion of it being developed, staff would
agree to landscaping onfy the southerly portion of the site where
the parking and church is proposed. The site plan meets all of
the requirements as far as parking, lighting and lot coverage.
Since the property is located outside of the MUSA line, the site
has to provide two acceptable septic sites approved by the cityrs
soil consultants, Dr. Machmeier and Mr. Anderson. The applicant
has not provided the city tdith two recomrnended septic sites and
the appropriate soil borings at this time. The reason the appli-
cant has not yet provided this information is because Ehey are
pursuing with the Met Council and with the city the opportunity
to hook into the Lake Ann Interceptor which is located through
the site. The applicant wishes to connect to the Lake Ann
Interceptor rather than installing a septic system at this time
and then hooking into the Lake Ann Interceptor in the future.
Before the conditional use permit can be approved there must be
two approved septic sites on the property. In speaking with the
Metropolitan CounciI, it was stateal that a MUSA line amendment to
a11ow the church to hook into the Lake Ann Interceptor would not
be viewed favorably unless the septic system was failing or that
due to the construction of the Lake Ann Interceptor and other
physical features of the site, two septic system sites.could not
be-located. The Met Council is writing a letter to this effect
which will be handed out at the Planning Commission meeting. The
applicant has submitted letters from a soil consultant stating
that there are no acceptable sites for a septic system on the
property. Staff has visited the site with Mr. Anderson and has
touna tfrat there are areas outside of the construction limits of
the Lake Ann Interceptor and located in the tree area south of
the church that coul-d be used as septic sites. Stsaff is
Wests ideJuly 13,
Page 4
Baptist CUP
1988
requesting that the applicantsites can be provided. Staff
acceptable sites and that theseptic system.
provide information showing whereis not convinced that there are no
church cannot be supported by a
Drainaqe , Gradinq and Utilities
PLANNING COMMISSION ACTION
STAFF UPDATE
As stated in the body of themeeting the set.back, height,
recomrnended tabling the con-applicant provided staff
tero acceptable septic sites.
The Planning Commission unanimouslyditional use permit review until thewith proper soil- dat.a which locates
On August 8, 1988, Drs. Machmeier and Anderson visited thewestside Baptist church site to determine the suitability of twoseptic sites. The appricant provided data on a site loclted bec-ween the church and wet]and and on a site rocated in the forestedarea south of Lhe church (see amended site pran). Drs. Machmeierand. And.erson have verbally confirmed that the two sites areacceptable and that additional areas for septic sites areavailable. They have provided a letter with their corunents (seeAttachment *14).
staff arso visited the site hrith rhe DNR Forester to determinethe impact of locating a septic system within the forested. area(Attachment #12)- Aran orson staled that the woodrot was in needof thinning and that removing some trees for a septic site wouldbe beneficial. MnDor reviewed the site plan and itated that anaccess permit from the Highway Departmenl would have to bereceived prior to installing the proposed driveway (Attachment#13).
previ ou slighting report, the
and parking applicant isrequirements of
In his attached memo, the Assistant City Engineer covers grading,drainage and other engineering issues for the proposed church. -
RECOMMENDATION
Until the applicant submits the proper soil information regardingsoil borings and septic site locations, staff cannot recomfrendaction on the conditional use permit. Two acceptable septicsites must be provided before the site can be p-rmitted to bedeveloped. Therefore, staff is recommending that the planning
Commission table this item until the applicint provides thereguired soil boring data locating two lcceptable septic sites onthe property.
Wes ts i deJuly 13,
Page 5
Baptist CUP
1988
the zoning Ordinance. The parking area is recommended to belined with concrete curb (see Engineer's report). The applicantis also reguired to provide screening between the vehicuLar
access areas and right-of-way (Section 20-1190, Zoning Ordinance).
Since it has been confirmed that the site has tvro approved septicsites, the ccnditional use permit meets t.he specific conditionsfor churches and churches outside the MUSA line (see ApplicableRegulations). The location and activities of the proposed churchwill not negatively impact surrounding uses or traffic patterns.
The use meets the standard conditions for conditional use per-
mits. Staff is recommending the Planning Commission adopt the
following motion:
"The Planning Commission recommends approval of
Permit *88-9 for a church to be located outside
the following conditions:
1. The two approved septic sites must be stakedprior to receiving a building permit.
Conditional Use
of the MUSA with
2
3
4
and preserved
Provide a landscaping plan which provides screening between
the vehicular access areas and abutting right-of-way as
required in Section 20-1190 of the Zoning Ordinance.
The applicant sha11 receive an access permit from MnDoT prior
to installation of the church driveway.
A fire lane must be installed for the entire length on either
the east or west side of the building. The fire lane, at
Ieast 20 feet in width, must comply with the City of
Chanhassen's requirement for an all weather surface meeting
urban standards. Whichever side is chosen, a clear access
must be maintained by tlesignation of a "Fire Lane".
The main driveway shall have "No Parking Fire
instaLled.
Lane" s igns5
6
7
9
The applicant shall provide a revised grading plan with
sewer ialculations which verify the preservation of the
developed runoff rate and aIl storm sewer capacities as
of the final review Process.
The developer shall obtain and comply with all conditions of
the Watershed District Permit.
Wood fiber blankets or equivalent shal1 be used to stabilize
alI disturbed slopes greater than 3:1.
The developer sha11 be responsible for daily on and off site
cleanup caused by the construction of this site.
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pa rt
8
Westside Baptist CUpJuly 13, 1988
Page 6
ATTACHMENT S
10. A11 erosion controls sha1l be in place prior to the corunen_cement of any grading, and once in placl "t,iri-r".lii"ir'place throughout the duration oE coistruction. tt"-d"rr.rop..shalr be responsibre for periodic crrechs of the ;;;"i;;-'controls and shall mak_- aII repairs promptly. A11 erosioncontrols shall remain intact untit an esiaoi i s nea -".g" E.i irr.cover has been produced.
11. A revised plan which showssha11 be submitted as part bituminous parring and curbi ngot the final review process.
1. Sections from City Code.2. Memo fron Building Department dated ,fune 15, 19gg.3. Memo from public safeiy oir""toi-jIred July 8, 1988.4. Memo from Assr. city rigine.i-J"tfi'.rrry 6, 1988.:. DNR response dated iune-Zf, -igBS.'-
9. l:::.. from applicant aatea jrr"'rS, I988.t. LeEcer trom Dona1d Schneewind dated June 27, I9gg.9. Letrer ro Ehe Mer council aai"J-j"n. 20, 19g8.9. Application.10. Letter from Metropolitan Council dated July 1, 19gg.1L. planning CommissiLn *inutu" -J.aia*5rrv 13, 1988.l-2. Letter from DNR Forester a"c.a-J"fi- 27, jjBB.13. Lerrer from MnDor aut.J-.l"ii-zsl-iiea.14. Lerrer from Machmei".Tana.il";-6"i:; Aususr 9, 1988.15. Plan sramped,'Received a"g""r"r6l"iiae".
I 20-257 CHANHASSEN CITY CODE
Sec. 2O.257. \fiholesale nurseries.
The following applies to wholesale nurseries:
(l) The site must be on a collector street or minor arterial as identified in the compre-
hensive plan.
(2) The minimn'" lot size is frve (5) acres.
(3) All storage and yard areas as well as buildings must be setback one hundred (100)
feet from public or private road rightof-ways and five hundred (b00) feet from an
adjacent single family residence.
(4) The site must be located along a co ector or minor arterial as identified in the
comprehensive plaa.
(5) All outdoor storage areas must be completely screened by one hundred G00) percent
opaque fencing or berming.
(6) Hours of operations shal be from z:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., Monilay through saturday
only, work on Sundays and holidays is not permitted.
(7) Light sources shall be shielded.
(8) No outside speaker systems are allowed.
(Ord. No. 80, Art. V, $ 9(5-9-1(6), 12-15-86)
Sec. 20-25& Churches-Generally.
The following applies to churches inside:
(1) The site shall be located on a collector or arterial roadway as identfied in the
comprehensive plan or located so that access can be provided without conilucting
tralfrc through residential concentrartion-
(2) The structure must be set back frfty (50) feet from all property lines.
(3) Parking areas shall be set back twenty-frve (25) feet from streets and nonresidential
property and thirty (30) feet.
(4) No more than seventy (70) percent ofthe site is to be covered with impervious surface
and the remainder is to be suitably landscaped in conformance with article XXV.
(Ord. No. 80, Art. V, S 9(5-9-1(7), 12-15-86)
Sec. 2G259. Same-Located outside MUSA line,
Ttre following applies to churches located outside the Metropolitan urban services Area
line:
(l) The following must be provided for review:
a. Location of two (2) drainfield sites.
b. Two (2) soil borings on each &ainfield site for a total of four (4) soil borings.c. No percolation tests for drainfreld sites where the land slope is between zero and
twelve (12) percent.
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zoNING $ 20_263
d' one (1) percolation test per drainfield site where the land slope is betweenthirteen (13) and twenty-five (2b) percent.
(2) Areas where the land slope exceeds twenty-five (25) percent shall not be considered as
a potential soil treatment site.
(3) The sewage treatment system must be in conformance with chapter 1g, article tv.
(4) School and day care uses accessory to the church use are not permitted unlessapproved by the city council-
(Ord. No. 80, Art. V, S 9(b-9-1(Z), 12-15-86)
Sec. 2G260. kivate stables.
The following applies to private stables:
(1) Stables shall comply with chapter b, article III.
(2) Stables must be located a minimum of two hun&ed (200) feet from wetland areas.(Ord. No. 80, Art. V, $ 9(b-9-r(8), 12-15-86)
Sec. 20-261. State-licensed day care centers.
The following applies to state-licensed day care centers:
(1) The site shalr have loading and &op off points rresigned to avoid interfering withtralfic and pedestrian movements.
(2) outdoor play areas shal be located and designed in a manner which mitigates visuarand noise impacts on adjoining residential areas.
(3) Each center shall obtain all applicable state, county, and city licenses.(Ord. No. 80, Art. V, $ 9(E-9-r(9), 12-18-86)
Sec. 2G262. Ilospitals and health care facilities,
The following applies to hospitals and health care faeilities:
(1) rhe site sharl have direct access to collector or arterial streets, as defined in thecomprehensive plan.
(2) Emergency vehicre access shal not be adjacent to or located across a street from anyresidential use.
(Ord. No. 80, Art. V, $ 9(5-9-1(10), 12-tE_86)
Sec. 2G,26It. Recreational beach lots.
Ttre following minimum standards apply to recreational beach lots conditional use inaddition to such other conditions as may be prescribed in the permit:
(l) Recreational beach lots shall have at least two hundred (200) feet of lake frontage.
1175
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MEMORANDUM
TO: JoAnn O1sen, Assistant City planner
FROM: Steve A. Kirchman, Building Inspector
DATE: .Iune 15 , 19 8 8
SUBJ: 88-9 CUP (Westside Baptist Church)
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
CITY OF
CHINHISSEN
\ar.
Assuming R & D Soils Consultants' (Don Schneewind) site eva-luation is correct, a building permit can not be issued without aIetter from Metropolitan Waste Control Commission authorizingconnection to existing sewer 1ine. The usual SAC determinationletter from Metropolitan Waste Control Commission i"riII also berequired.
Erosion control- measuresoutlined by appl icant .
to protect nearby vraterways should be
t--r
CITY OF
EHINHISSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX .I47 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
MEMOR AND UM
TO: Jo Ann Olsen, Assistant City Planner
FROM: Jim Chaffee, public Safety Director
SUBJ:Westside Baptist Church
July 8, 1988DATE:
I have reviewed the site plan for the proposedBaptist Chulch and the following items will be
Wests i de
requ i red:
I A fire lane must be installed for the entire Iengthon either the East or West side of the building.
The fire lane, at least 20 feet in width, nust
comply with the city of Chanhassen's requirement foran a1I weather surface meeting urban standards.
Whichever side is chosen a clear unobstructed accessmust be maintained by designation of a ,,Eire Lane".
The rnain driveway shall havesigns i ns ta11ed."no parking fire lane"
Please contact me if
requi rements.
you have any guestions regarding these
*e
EHINH[SSEI{
MEMORANDUM
TO: Planning Commission
FROM: tarry Brordn, Staff Engineer
#,DATE: July 6, 198I
SUBJ: Conditional Use Permit
Planning File No. 87-5
for Westside Baptist Church
CUP, Westside Baptist Church
This site is located on the east side of State Highway 41approximately one mile north of State Highway 5. The 8.42 actesite is composed of a rolling topography with a grove of maturetrees along the southerly border of the site and various scat-tered mature trees throughout the entire site.
Sanitary Sewer
Municipal sanitary sewer service is not available to the site.
The plans accurately show the Metropolitan Waste Control
Commission 36-inch diameter interceptor going through this par-
cel . The plan proposes a sanitary sewer service hook-up to thisinterceptor. This site is outside of the Metropolitan Urban
Service Area boundaries which were set by the Metropolitan Waste
Control Commission (MWCC). At the date of this report, no evi-
tlence was given by the applicant that would permit the applicant
permission from the MWCC to connect into the interceptor. It is
assumed at this point that the site will have to be served by aseptic system. Because the location of the septic sites may
change the entire plan, the septic system sites should be ana-
lyzed prior to preliminary approval. Staff is therefore recom-
mending that this item be Labled until this issue can be
resolved. The septic system site should be reviewed by the
City's consultant , Mr. l4achmeier.
Watermai n
l4unicipal water service is not available to the site at thistime. Therefore, the applicant shall have to develop on-site
sources.
#+
CITY OF
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
P
J
P
slanninuly 6,
age 2
Commission
1988
Roadway
The applicant has sho$rn the driveway access for the proposed
parking 1ot consistent rdith the suggested alignment for the
suggested future extension of Lake Lucy Road. It should be notedthat the extension of Lake Lucy Road may be hindered due to theprotected DNR wetland adjacent to the suggested right-of-way for
Lake Lucy Road.
The applicant sha11 submit for approval by the City Engineer aset of calculations verifying that adequate sight distance existsfor the access onto State Highway 41 prior to final site plan
review. An access permit by the State of Minnesota will berequired prior to the coru[encement of any construction on site.
Due to the anticipated traffic volumes from the site, it is
recornmend.ed that the parking area be paved and lined with a bitu-
minous curb as a minimum.
Gradinq and Draina ge
Similarly, erosion controfsrevised submittal.should be addressed as parL of this
ff the Planning Commi ss ionfollowing conditions apply
chooses to approve the site, the
Recommended Conditions
I The applicant sha11 provide a revised grading plan withseh,er calculations which verify the preservation of thedeveloped runoff rate and aII storm sewer capacities asof the final review process.
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part
2
3
The developer shall obtain andthe Watershed District permi t .
comply with all conditions of
Wood fiber blankets or equivalentall disturbed slopes greater than
sha11 be used to stabilize
3:1.
The grading pl-an shows a minimal amount of grading along thesoutheast side of the parcel to create the proposed church pad.
The proposed grading will require the removal- a portion of theexisting grove of trees which borders the southerly propertyboundary. The proposed grading plan does not address on-siteretention. A revised grading plan and calculations which verifythat the predeveloped runoff rate has been maintained should besubmitted to the City Engineer prior to final site plan revielr.
Erosion Control
Planning Commi s s ionJuly 6, 1988
Page 3
4
5
The developer shall be responsible for daily on and off sitecleanup caused by the construction of this site.
AII- erosion controls shall be in place prior to the cornmen-cement of any grading, and once in place sha1l remain inplace throughout the duration of construction. The developershaIl be responsible for periodic checks of the erosioncontrols and shaIl make all repairs promptly. AII erosioncontrols shall remain intact until an established vegetativecover has been produced.
6.A revised plan which shows bituminous parking and curbingshal1 be submitted as part of the final revie$, process.
To G*rn O/*,,":.- -r: -ii+ 1 ! a',+,-,f--
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Westside Baptist Church
6801 HAZELTINE BOULEYARD
P,O. BOX 63t
CHANHASSEN. MINNESOIA 5S3I7
t6 tzr 474-1419
City of Ctrarrtnssen,
UForr application for Land Lbvelopnent !{+._stside Baptisyour permission to hook-up to the netro waste sewer _l
I,,{herr we r.rere pr:rchas irrg the properLy we !.iere infornerlof l{et Cor"nicil that we eould be considered as a exceptr:p iJ or:r city r.ouJ-d subnit such a request for us.
PASTOE BRYAN PIXE
June 13. 1988
t Ch;reh is reqrjestirg
ine that is n_:rrring rightacross .rul' 1i1l1d. hb l-e ve corrsrrlter-I i.,it.h a Lnst-a11er,/fE_signe_r nane-d ltrrralrl.:ciriii.ewind airnl:t tl:e sibility;-if soil boring_s r-or the tr+c, septi.:_.: sigtrtsrequired f+r this appl ieation arrd have bee-n inforned by him that t,here is riosuitnL,i= Flace to bor-e be-cauee +f ilE dl-str-.rbanee to the proler-ty L_,-v the iretrowast; .ger.rer line tint 1s go ine in and tlie l-r_riJ-d j rre; s ight as well
1*r
ion and a,liowed L: hc.l:k
t{r. .9chneer+rrid Ls willing arrd rsjlf be sendiug }.otr. a letter t_c .:onfirrc t}ieproblem aith a septic 5yste-m on our property.
i ]pr:e i-his lett^-r e>^?J-aj:-.:s riiiv l',e have rr:'t suhrnit+,*rl the septic requ*=-;+,s i:ythe city ard if you hal,e ary que-stjons pLease coD.,act ue.
=.in,^rlaIr:
P'ry-.m Piiie. Pastor
6
11J8J 110th Street
Cologne, lN 55322
June 27, 1988
Pastor Brial Pike
P.0. Box 6J1
Ghanhassen, lfi{ 55317
City of Chanhassen
Re: hoperty at 5801 Hazeltine Blvd
Dear Sirs,
R & D SoiL Consultants was retained. by Westside Baptist Church to
cond.uct soil borings and percolation tests to i-nstaLl an onsite
sePti c systen.
spe ful
.i-/-
onal-d A.ewind
R&DSoilConsul-tants
After reviering the site plan ard ar:chitects proposed. site for thesysten, it lras aletelrnined that the sites that were previously selectedhave been comlEcted by vehicle traffic and no 1on6er suitabll for theseptic systen.
Ue nere al-so infoltrled that extensive sewer work is bei-ng d.one in thearea and the renaining sites avai-Iab1e woul-d be excavated..
R & D Soil Consultants feels that the site renaining north of theproperty is not suitabl_e because of the high rater leveL and theexisting pond. The property to the south of the proposed buildinshas too great of slope for a nound systern (app,rox. L6%)
Ttre Chanhassen City Ordinance 10-B requires two suitable sites foronsite septic sewage treatnent and with the inforrnti on given thereare not two sites avai-labIe.
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
RECE!",==
JUN 2 '' i!'
CHANHASSEN PLANNING DEPT'
7
f
({CITY OF
EH,tNH[SSEI{
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
June 20, 1988
On June 13, 1988, the City received an application for a con-ditional use permit to permit the westside Baptist Church toconstruct their church in the rural district off of Hwy. 41 (seeAttachnent *1). Pastor Brian pike has been in contact with youdiscussing the possibility of hooking inro the Lake AnnInterceptor which runs through the church property. The reasonfor this request is to permit him an alternat.ive Lo two septicsystems on the lot. Due to the alteration of his Iot from rheconstruction of the Lake Ann fnterceptor and construclion of thechurch and parking lot, it may be difficult for him to locate twoacceptable septic system sites. Attached is a 1etter from pastorPike stating that a consultant, Donald Schneerl,ind, has reviewedthe site and determined that two septic sites are not possible
because of the ilisturbance to the property. pastor pike istherefore requesting that the chuch be allowed to hook into tsheLake Ann Interceptor.
Pastor Pike has stated that in his discussions with you that ithas been stated thats there is a possibility of the church hookinginto the take Ann Interceptor. To proceed with the conditionaluse permit application, the city needs to have confirmation fromthe Metropolitan Council that this in fact is true and whether ornot we should initiate a land use plan and MUSA line amendment.
Please contact me as soon as possible with your comments andplease feel free to call if you have any questions.
Sincerely,
Jo Ann olsenAssistant City planner
EJO:v
Ms. Pat PahlMetropolitan Councilllears Park Center Building
230 East Fifth StreetSt. Pau1, MN 5 5101
Dear Ms. PahI:
LAND DEVELOPIiENT APPLICATION
CITY OF CEANEASSEN
690 coulter Drive
Chanhassen, MN 55317(612) 937-I900
APPLICANT : WESTSTDE BAPTTST CHTTRCH OWNER:
ADDRESS e 6801 Hazeltine BIvd.ADDRES S
TELEPIIONE (Daytime )
REQTJEST:
Zip Code
414-1419 TELEPHONE
Zoning District Change
Zoning Appeal
Zoning variance
Zoning Text Amendment
Land Use Plan Amendment
Conditional Use Permit
Planned Unit Developnent
Sketch Plan
-
Preliminary plan
Final Plan
Subdivi sion
_ Platting
_ Metes and Bounds
Street/Easement Vacat ion
lietlands Permit
1p code
ite Plan Review
I.JESTSIDE BAPTIST CI{I]RCH
PRESENT I,AND USE PLAN DESIGNATION
REQUESTED LAND USE PLAN DESIGNATION
PRESENT ZONING K .IL
REQUESTED ZONING
USES PROPOSED c\'.rrc1 site
SIZE OF PROPERTY ^ross - 10.04 AC.'ret - 8.42 AC.
LOCATION '?O l 'iazeltine alvd hanhassen, ::n.
REASONS FOR THIS REQUEST To Bulld a C'hurcir..luild r-ng.
LEGAL DESCRIPTION (Attach lega1 if necessary)
#7
Chashassen l.ln. 55 317
PROJEC? NA},IE
This application must be completed in fuLl a1! be typewriLten orclearly printed and must be iccompani"a-oy aII information and
iiri:: liii':i"ir":Ei::i.it: * ji,:;:j:;::"_l#i;i:u,,"rk:.to cletermine the soeciti.'"iai"""iI iii'p.o.e.urar- requiremenrsapplicable to your application. ---' -"-
City
Land
Page
FILING INS TRU CTIONS:
FTLING CERT IF I CATION:
sisned a" /tl--*oA
of Chanhassen
Development Application2"
The undersiqned reoresentative of the applicanC herebvthat he is faniliai *iir.,-fr."'p.;;";;;"ir..quirements lfapplicable City Ordinances.
Ap lican
/2. t /.-^*-",
Fee wne r
certifiesall
.L Date 6-B-7U
by the
thei r Planning Commiss ionl
The undersigned hereby certifies that the applicant has been:::::ii:;: ro make tt,L" "ppri"".i".-r"r"the properry herein
Signed By 0/",-^.,r-Date 6 -t5- X{
Date Application
Application Fee
City Receipt No.
Recei ved
Pai d
r This Application rvill beBoard of Adjustments andmeeting.
cons idered
Appea.Ls at
. {:*,.", -
r_....-....--
-.--.------...-.
That Prrt of the xorth!!tt 0urrtcr
S.ctlon 1. Ioxnshlp ll6' Rrog! 21,
desc r I h!d rJ fol loi3:
of the
Carrer
Comnenclng rt tha northQ!st cornaa of sald llortherst
Ourrtrr of thr Southarst 0uart"ri th?nc? South 0l dcgre?3
0l ilnute3 05 seconds Elst.. l!sunted bctrlng. 'along th?
.art I lna of 3.ld llorthe.st 0llrlt?a of thr Solrthe!st
0u,rrte'r i dlstincr of 52t.15 fret to th€ polnt ot
hegl,!nln9 ot thc l.nd to bG dcscrlbed; thancQ Iorth 89
,leqrees 6l nlnutes 05 ieconds tlett. r dl3tinc? of 311.21
t..t to r I ln? hcretn!ftar rlferrad to rs I lnr A; thence
routhresterly rlonq srld Lln? A r dlst.nc€ of 896'18
feet to the touth llna of srld tlorthcist 0u!rtcr of the
Souther!t 0urrter; thence eastGrly rlonq 3.ld 3outh I lnr
to th? sorrthcr3t corn?r of s.ld l{ortheist 0uirter of thc
South.rtt 0utrteri thencr northerly rlong slld last I lne
to thr polnt of b?.linnln9.
l-lne A ls de!crlb?d rs follois:
South€.3t Qulrter of
Countr. l,l I nnatot.,
utlllty
Th? ccrt?r
Reglnnlnq.t. polnt on th" rorrth lln? of srld llorth!ast
0rrirter 6t ttrc southerst 0u!rter dlst!nt 685.3, f!ct
rest?rly lroil the southc!!t corncr of 3ald llo?thertt
0u.rtrr ol tha South?l!t 0u!rtari th?ncc norther3terly'
i dlrtince of 206{.9/t ftrt. to r polnt on thc "lst I ln?
of 3.ld Southe!!t 0u.rter of the ltorth?.3t 0urrter dlst'nt
5nr.?5 f?ct northrrly f.on the !outherst corn?r of sald
Sorthe.st 0urrtcr of thG tlorth€.3t Ouart!r rnd 3!ld I lnc
thrr? trrnl n.t I ng.
SuhJ?ct to ! 50 foot per anent !tsGlnant for 9tr.et rnd
pr.po..s orer tnd rcro39 the aborr de3crlbGd parcel.
I lne ot 3.ld Ga3enrnt ls drscrlbad .s tol lor,t:
Coonqnclng at the southeatt corn?. of thc Northetst qulrte|.
of th. Southcast 0uarter of S"qtlon 3, Iornihlp ll6,
Rinq.23, Crrver Collnty. lllnnGsot.; thanc? llorth 0l
degierr 03 lnute3 05 tecond! Le!t, rs3unad hc.rlng'
rlonq thp crst I lne of 3cld llorth"ltt Qu.rtar of the
Sollther3t 0uarte.. dl3t.nce of 80.00 fcrt to the polnt
of h.qlnnlng ol th. cc.lter I lhe to be d?!crlbcdi th.ncrnorthvpit?.ly r dl!t.oc. ol 10r.54 feet rlong.
nontrngcntlil curye conclY! to tha northea!t, havlng t
r,idlus of 292.0R feet rnd ! centrrl rnglr ol 2l d?gree5
05 rnlnut..i a6 seconds, thc chord of sald curvG hlvlng t
horrlng of llorth l5 deqr?e3 l3 nlnuta3 l2 secondr yest;
thrn(. tlorth 35 d.gr!e! l0 nlnuta! 24 s?condt l{ctt
trnq.nt to lrtt curvc I dlstlnc? ol 122.20 faat; th.ntr
northne3terly a dlstrnce ot 21r.96 fc?t along. tlngentltl
cUrve conc.ve to th" southresti hivlng i r.dlut of 38l.ll
f.ct rnd . cent rt l tngl e of 35 dagree! a6 nl nutrs 22
seconrls: thl. nc e llorth ,0 d!9ree3 56 ntl nute3 a5 3?cond3
Iest r dlsLance of 190.00 f"rt ,'ld tald centcr lln.
th?.? ternlnatlng.
SubJ.ct to ?.3?lnent lot St.tc Hlghi!, t{o. al.
lta
I
Gn0ss ARtAntI ARti .ft.,t.10.0{8.t2 AC.
AC.
,l'i v:_
I
I
137.21, sq.
365,905 3q.
METROPOLITAN COUNCIL ruean m* centre, 230 F,,st F{th &rea, St. paut, MN. sslot 6t2 29t-6359
Jo Ann olsen
Assiatant City Planner
City of Chanhassen
690 Coulter Drive, P.0. Box 147
Chanhassen, Uj,nnesota 55317
Dear l,ls . 01sen:
As you la:ow the site of the proposed church is located oubside the Metropotitan
Urban Service Area and is covered by the Lake Ann facili.ty agreaent.
Therefore, it will not be brought into the MUSA. In Pat's conversation lrith
Pasior Pike, the pastor asked about the possibi,lity of a future connectlon to
the interceptor. She indicated that sonetime in the future this Hould be
possible. She did not know the church was intending to proceed in two months.
llhen she learned about it, she called Pastor Pike and informed hitr that the
connection at this tine would not be consistent with the Lake Ann agreement.
The Counci,l has no evidence lhat an onsite systen could not be installed to
serve the church and an exception will not b€ granted al this tine.
A possible solution is for the church to proceed with the installation of an
onsite system. If the systen fails in the future, the church could hook up to
the Lake Ann interceptor at that ti.me. If the city ordinance requires two
onsite systen locations and only one can be sited, Lhe city might consider a
variance and require only one.
I hope this is helpful and apologize for any confusion that might have
occurred.
Sincerely,
[1r
Roger Israel
Director of Research and Long nange Planning
RI/pb
cc! Pastor Brian Pike .,--;i'.r,:D
JUL 121988
CITY OF CHANFiASSEN
bto
July 1, 1!88
l an responding to your letter to Pat Pahl of our staff on the request of
Pastor Pike for the l{estside Baptist Church to connect a proposed church to the
Lake Ann Interceptor. Pat has taken a position as deputy director in another
departnent a! the Councll and, I am sorry, is no longer handling these issues.I, however, had an opportunity to talk with Pat regarding her conversation with
Pastor Pike.
2r---!
{
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMI SS ION
SPECIAL MEET I NG
\ JULY 13, I988
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Batzli and David
Ladd Conrad,
Head.I a
Annette Ellson, Steven Enmings, Brian
STAEF PRESENT: Barbara Dacy, City planner;
Planner and Larry Brown, Asst. City Engineer
Jo Ann Olsen, Asst. City
Conrad moved, BatzIi secondedvoted in favor and the motion
to table thiscarried.item untj.I July 29, 1988. AIl
(PUBLIC HEARING:
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO LOCATE A CHURCH IN THE RURAL DISTRICT ON
PROPERTY ZONED RR, RURAL RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT AND LOCATED ON THE EAST SIDEOF HWY. 41 APPROXIMATELY ONE MILE NORTH OF HWY. 5, WESTSIDE BAPTIST
CHURCH .
Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report.
Headla: You say they lookedthat just an opi n i on?
Public Present:
Name
Brian Pi ke
Jim Da lhar t
Emmings: Is the appl icantthis t ime?
Address
westside Baptist ChurchArchitect for AppI icant
at Ehe site. Did they take borings OT IS
Olsen: We did not take borings al that tjme. There was a bigdug with the Lake Ann Interceptor so he did get an idea of whatwere like and then the topography. There was area to work, itthat vre had not been given any information to prove there was asite out there-
hole beingthe soils
was j ust
boring
(here aod does he want to make a presentation at
btt
Vice Chairman Emmings called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m..
MEMBERS ABSENT: .tim Wildermuth and Tim Erhart
PUBLIC HEARING:
SUBDIVISION OE 7 ACRES INTO TWO LOTS AND ONE OUTLOT AND TO CREATE A NEW
54TH STREET CUL-DE-sAc oN PROPERTY zoNED RsE, RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY
AND LOCATED AT THE souTHwEsr coRNER oF WEST 64TH STREET AND HwY. 41, REEDADDITION, GARY REED AND HSZ DEVELOPMENT
{
Brian pike: yes, I have aone soil boring. Actuallyhere isn't it? Doesn't it
few things to say about t.his.tlro that are in this area. The
come across this way?
OIsen: It comes along the bottom.
Brian Pike: So is this I50 setback correct with this pond over here?
Olsen: Yes.
Brian pike: we gave her two in this area and she's asking for a secondsite. This serrer that,s coming through right through h;;; i" goi.,g-d;r,52 feet and the man some time ago astea roi permission to-move their dirtover this rine down into this area over here-. we hal qiven himpermission to do that so when r brought, you see a retter in there fromMr. schneewind from R & D soir consurtants. He said this area, it rookedlike the water table, and he arso rooked at this hore thatrs right here,and the r./a ter tabre he said looked too low for over here. Then he saidthe _only other spot is up in this forest area which is a mature forestrand and we have done everything we courd to keep them from knocking thosetrees down with this septic line coming through. rn fact, the forest randllra! y9u see right here used to go out to her6 and they t;ok out stuffthat they told us they were not going to take out. th6y;re going tosupposedry compensate us for that. we,re trying to sav6 these trees andshe's asking us to put' to do a soir boring up in tere. we,re saying thatwe donrt want to put it up in there. r'v6 s-ought some advice and somecounsel from other folks and they say that it is a possibility up herealthough schneewind said he thought tnat tne grade was too steep so wedidntt pursue this. Also, because we were se6king, as the appricationsays, an opportunity to hook up to the Metro Waste Sewer line thatrsrunning right through the middle of our property. originarty when itbecame clear that they were going to come right- througfi the miadle of ourproperty, we said at that time we would like to hook up. I spoke to alady named Mi.ss pahl . That h/as some time ago. Not two months as theletter states. when r spoke with her she said there could be somethingconsidered called an exception. That's the first. time I heard of anexception. To get an exception she said you had to go through your Citybut it wonrt be Iikely that yourll, get this exception untj f it'l p.olr"r'that you've actually purchased the property and you're getting ready tobuild so we waited because we did not know how fast we were golng tibuild. How fast we were going to grow. How soon we needed to move fromthe location that $re needed to move from here in chanhassen. so we waitedand it began to look like, as we did some searching and research, that wecourd build. we found someone that was willing to finance and we found abuilder that thought thaE we could put the buildi.ng up so we plan onproceeding. Slow but sure and we're ready, at least it looks Iikefinancially, and the builder has desj.gned this design for us. Thjshooking up to Lhe sewer line is the onry thing that's holding us, iE lookslike to us. for us to put a septjc system up in this tree growth, itmeans knocking out some mature trees that are not going to be replacedvery easily. When we know we're going to hook up to the sewer line inmaybe 1995r is what Miss pahl first said to us because it's 2ag6 beforethey open up to anybody outside the sewer line. Is that correct?
t{e I ve
pond
given heris over
L
Planning Commission Meet i ngJuly 13, 1988 - Page 2
(
Planning
July 13,
Commission Meeting
1988 - Page 3
{
rL
Brian Pike: she mentioned to me 1995 and again, it seems to us that withthis thing going right through the center oi our property, that we shouldbe an exception to this rure. we discovered that *e-*ooid use ress thanone household, one residential household. The urban sewer line is justthe other side of the pond from us. werre not real far from that sewerrine and there isn't anyprace that's undisturbed except that rittle r50foot stretch she shows there between the construction rimit and the pond.Again, that is row land over t.here so it would probably require a moirndsystem.which again Eo us is a little bit more money for a temporary systemthat will. hold us until the yeax 2A06.
Emmings: I guess the point is that if the Metropolitan Councilwritten us a letter that says they,re not going to allo$, you asexception. They're not going to let you hook up.
Brian Pike: The Metropolitan Councila position to me.
has not relayed exactly that firm of
Dacy: At minirnum.
Enmings: Let tel lme
I've
Brian Pi ke:saying they
has
an
I've got a letter dated July 1, 1988.
got same letter right here.
You r
theBrian Pike:
Brian Pike: About Met Counci.1?
Hnmings: Right.
Ellmings: To do vrha t?
Emmings: rt says i.n one paragraph, the Metropolitan council has a letterthat says an outside system could not be installed to serve the church andan exception wirr not be granted at this time. we can,t get, the planningcommission is not going to get in a wrestLing match betwe6n yo., and theMetroporitan council or bet$reen you and tne itaff. you,re going to h^,,reto satisfy our staff _that you've got some way to dispose of-thii ""r"g"..tf Vog can hook up, fine. It makes sense bul if you-canrt, we're goiig tohave to have the on-site. septic systems. There cin't be any two wiys -
about it. There's no third alternative that r can think of and.= i". usa1l' the stuff you've tord us so far, this is alr how, the probrem" yo",""had getting the Metropolitan councir to see the Lighi to d'o what yoi ,u.,ito do and that realry doesnrt concern us. There's nothing we can do aboutthat.
Brian Pike: Well Met Council has mentioned another option to us thathasnrt been mentioned. rn here therers no menEion of our other soilborings that's given to you. I,m having a struggle definitely and I donrtfeel like rrm having a struggre so much with lrei-council. ttel council istelling me that it's up to thj.s staff.
To recommend to them or not to recommend to them and they,recanrt recommend because of those two possibirities that tlrey
(L
Pl ann i ng
JuIy 13,
Commission Meet.ing
1988 - Page 4
disagree with Mr. Schneewind about as being possibilites.
Enmings:. we hire professional consultants because we donrt know aboutsewage disposal and we rely on them for their technicar exfertise and ifit comes do$rn to a showdown between Mr. schneewind and our'city retainedexperts, traditionally we folrow what our experts terr us. That's what wehired them for. I have to ask the staff if ihis Mr. Machmeier and...
Olsen: Jim Anderson.
Emmings: And have they said thathave two on-site systems?
Olsen: Right, but i{e need the
one way or the other.
they think it's possible that they can
information, the soil borings, to prove it
Emmings: And who do you get that from?
OIsen: The appl icant.
Brian Pike: we gave them the two. We haven,t heardthe two because theyrre still waiting for the otherSo r.rhen it comes down to thaE subjective of being inthat makes the determination on whether or not thosethat you? Them? Us or the Council or who?
any comments about
ones up in the trees.the trees, who istrees come out? Is(
Emmings: I suppose if thatts your alternative site, there wouldntt be anyreason it wourd have to be disturbed. rf you could use the primary sitevrhere there are no trees, you may never need the secondary site. you maynever need it at arr or you may never need it until yourll be abre to ho6kup into the Lake Ann Interceptor. There's no reason to think right offhand that yourre ever have to take out a tree if your primary site isbuilt correctly and maintained correctly. That r^rould be what I would say.
Olsen: And Mr. Anderson commented that they wouldn,t be clearcutting ahuge area.
Enmings: llhy do they have to cut anything?
Olsen: They donrt. Tha E rs just an alternate site but if they do.
acceptable s j.tes, at least that's the $ray weBrian Pike: So you saj.d two
were reading the site.
OIsen: Receive the so j.1 bor j.ngs.
Brian Pike: So they need soil borings in the trees.
which we wouLd be tabled and stopped at this point?Is that an issue by
( Emmj ngs: we canrE process your appl jcati.on. I think what sEaff is saying\. to us is we can.t process this apptication without having all theinformati.on in. The information isn,t in.
(
Pl ann i ng
July 13,
Commission Meet i ng
198 8 - Page 5
{
Brian Pike: So two soil borj.ngs?
Emmings: I donrt know. Whatever they require.
Brian Pike: Two soil borings. The other soil borings, lretve neverthem mentioned in atl of this. were they not acceptibie? Have theychec ked ?
we need are the two sets of soil borings erithwhich you have not done. you havenrt ieallyborings that were taken previously.
had
been
Olsen: What
on the plan,are two soil
Br ian
PIan.
the site shownshown. Those
Olsen: Right. What we need
where that site is proposed.srte so the soil consuLtanEs
Brian Pike: We showed where they rdere on the site plan.
is to have on the site plan to shord the area
We need to have that area staked out on thecan 90 out there and see exactly where it is
Pike: But r^re did give you two and we did nark those tvro on the site
(
Hnmings: That.'s not what she said.the site plan an outlined area r./hereshow them where the borings are and
Brian Pike: We did that didn't we?
she
you
tha t
Ann?
borings shown.
therers a communication problem
and just said, herers our plan.our appl ication?
said she needs to have defined onplan to bui).d your drainfield andand then show the alternative.
Emmings: Have you seen it Jo
Olsen: Werve gotten two soil
Hnmings: It sounds to me likeyou come into the staff officedo you need so $re can complete
Brian Pike: yes.
&rmings: Have you done that?
Brian Pike: yes.
here. Have
What more
Olsen: He's been explained lrhatr s needed.
Brian-pike: _ Itrs just been this issue about the ttees. I guess Irvetarked to other peopre in. the city, on In. city councir and they berievethat up in those trees, those tre;s snoutan't Le taken down so I,ve beenhedging and saying that this i" un "i""ptio.r. r want my cit.y to make anapplication. Met council. says they ".n"t do anything uitil 0u, city staffnakes an application to lhem.
Enmings: whaE rs your understanding?
Olsen: Whatrs happened is that there has been a...
t
Plann ing
JuIy 13,
Commission Meeti ng
198I - Page 6
(
Olsen: A communication block. What I've been saying is we need,to go to Met CounciL, the.only way that they're going to accept iLand use Pran Amendment, is if there's no wiy ttrit rre can providesites so rrve asked the appricant some inforiration to confirm it.been under the opinion that maybe we donrt even need to do that.
Emmings: Itts pretty clear to me though, lrhat needs to be done here isyou have to identify the two sites that you propose for the septic. Getyour soir borings in so the staff can ro6x a[ ti:em with our consultantsand we can make an informati.ve decision then as to whether or not $rervegot sites here that can be used for the septic system or not.
Batz1i: I think what hers trying to say is he submitted one set ofborings and if that area is not acceptaLle, he doesn't want to have to goand take a second set up in the trees. r think what. he's actuarly tryiigto ask the staff is, have they examined those soil borings so is itrere a[Ieast one primary site available.
Brian Pike: A block -
Brian Pike: Werre asking to go hook up tosaying that the septj.c sites to us aren't
necessary because, as we Iook at the sitethe site, it is a site that is a hardship
as an exception.
the l,letropolitan Counc j.1. wer re
necessary and theyr re not
and as she went and looked at
case and it woul,d be considerd
for ust, that
sept i c
He has
Brian Pike: Because Met Council says if therers not tvro, then we are ahardship case. They've also mentioned anot,her thing to us about a land
r swap that they're willing to do and that hre weren't informed of untit just
L the other day.
Emmings: It seems to me that all this stuff ought to be done before welook at it. It seems to me that that canrt be resolved at the planning
Commission. Ladd, I'm going to ask for your guidance oo this. It r^rould
seem to me that werre looking at issues that we don't normally look at.This stuff usually gets ironed out before we get it and thatts furtherevidence to me that the thing ought to be tabled until everybody has theiract together and then we can look at it. what do you think?
Conrad: Yes. We need the two separate sites.
Enrnings: But then go convince them that you should be hooked up and thenbring your plan back and thatrs fine. We rrron't worry about the septicsites.
Brian Pi ke:Convince who?
Metropol,itan CounciI.
It's Ehese tvro that I have to convi.nce.
Ernmings: The(
Brian Pike:
Planni ng
JuJ.y 131
Commission Meeting
1988 - Page 7
(
Emmings: Okay, staff first and then Metropolitan CounciI. you,lIdo that but we can,t do anything. Thatrs lreliminary to coming in
Headla: Yourve got to do step 1 before you move to step 2.
Dacy: The soil borings need to be done period.
have to
here.
at all
Conrad: We don'E kno$, if the first borings are good or bad and yourresaying that you don't want to do the seco;d ones until the first ones arei.n and r think we need to see both. we can go to Metropolitan council andsay it's.a hardship. r guess r vrourd have a hard time laying that therersa hardship if you have to take down a tree and r think werre as sensitiveas any community in the T!.rin cities when you tark about taking down trees.we want to preserve trees rike you do but- if you $rere aski;; ie ir taiingdosrn r or 2 trees or something is a hardship it.t ,u"orJ-i.lii.. us t;;;'to Met councir and say this is a real hardship, r think r iourd have ahard time- saying that. If you said we have to level 4 acres of property,that may be a hardship but i'm not hearing that. you're not giving usenough information to make any kind of deiision. you're not pioviaingstaff with the minimum that our ordinances require for us io p.o..".anything so I think it's just best, before we set direction and say weagree with you that it-is a hardship or we disagree. r think you iearryhave to get all sets of j.nformation into us.
{Brian_ pike: I guess when they asked us forthe disturbed property from Metro CounciI,scouldnrt see two sites and so that was theCouncil for a variance.
Conrad: Our staff istheyrre saying therewhoever's helping youyourve got to narrow
saying there are. With their technicalare two sites so I think betvJeen you and
.do the engineering and the city ;taff,in on that.
two sites and we looked
1i ne going through, vrebasis for applying Eo Met
adv i ce
your ,I think
I couldnrt find in theneed city approval toanswered that you l ook
Jim Dalhart: I,m working $rith the church.ordinance but I believe it does say that youtrees in the forested areas. you Lasical.lyacres as Iarge quantities?
zon r. ng
remove
at 4
Conrad: No. I made that_stuff up. Don,E hold me to the actual wordsthat r used. The key, and we =p"-nt som" time mat<ing suie ttrat in theunsewered area we_donrt want to pollute. Thereforel oui n", ordinance,and it's relatively- new, requirei two alternative sites. A primary siteand if that one fails somewiiere down the Line, we want to know thatthere's a secondary site. we donrt want to encourala porrrtion. vrhetherit be from a house or a church or industry. That,s the reason for thatordinance and it's rerativery new and we'ie a"i"i tr,i.is that r thinkdeserves the environment thal your church would iike uia tn" communi.yrikes. That's $rhat chanhassen is asking fo,-;ig;;";oil- w. have to knoe,( if there are those alternative sitei. Once r,re know thaE, then we canL proceed. rf we knor,, that there'!s not a secondary site availabr.e, we canreact to that but right now we donrt know ano tnltis-*r,y ,.'re saying wecan't even provide you any advice right. now. we need t6 know if there,s a
Pl ann i ng
July 13,
Commission Meeting
1988 - Page 8
r
secondary site.
through with our
again.
That I s sort ofstaff and your
the next step that
engineering people
yourve got to go
and come back to US
Jim Dalhart: Part of the church's concern is simply...unit building and a site in the trees they lrould have toto it. That's another reason the church was relunctant
Emmings: You have to only identify it on the site.it but you have to identify it.
This
Punpto go
look at
read on
site, r
is the firstprobably upthat way.
fai led .
it if our
that letter?
believe that
Brian Pike: According to l.te t Council, then tfirst system fails. Is that right? Is that
You dontt have to use
Conrad: But you would be forced to use it if the first system
Olsen: If your system fails and there's anthey would $rish that you use that.
hey would
what you
alternate
Enmings: You donrt know how they're going to be looking at that. MetCouncil doesn't exactly stay constant on issues either and you get I0years down the road and you have a failure in your septic system, they mayhave a whole different idea that yes, they would accept you as anexception at that time. Maybe at time you'd be pushed out even furtherbut therers just no way to know.
Headla: Why are we spending so much time talkj.ng about Met Council? wearenrt even part of it. Until they satisfy the staff requirements, youdonrt do anything so listen to the staff and then theyrre going to workwith you and if there isn't a site available, then yourve got their totalsupport in going to Met Council. But by doing an end run on them, I thinkyoutre just delaying the activity.
Brian Pike: Sir, r^re're not trying to do an end run on them.
Headla: ThaErs what it appears when they say yourve got to do these
thi.ngs and Met Council says yourve got to have their support.
Brian pike: The way this thing proceeded vras, I was told to come up with
a letter from a soil consultant that said there isnrt t.wo sites. I went
and brought a soil consultant out there. He looked and he said, well
there isn't. So I sent the }etter in and they she went out there with theCity Engineer and they looked over the pEoperty. They didntt do I believe
any !est. No tests so on his opinion, it came down to two opinions and I
can understand taking the City opinion. I wasnrt trying to do an end run.
The guy, my person that I was willing to pay to do the soil borings said
there aren't trdo sites out there. You said your City Engineer said there
are.
-(
Emmings: Did he his opinion on
it upon, no.
ba se
ba sedBrian Pi ke: He
borings?
Planning
JuJ.y 13,
Commission Meeti ng
1988 - Page 9
(
Emmings: You can hire an expert to say anything.
Brian Pike: We hired him to come out and do soilwhere? ne said all of this is disturbed land -
borings and he sa id
Emmings: Maybe
can identi fy the
Cornmun icate wi th
Brian Pike:your guy andlot of this
by coordinating with our consultants and staff, maybe theylikely sites and your man can do the boringsthe staff and get them what they want.
We did and she said probably the end resultour guy going out there on the property andconmunication has been in the tast week-here.
of thislook it is hav i ngover. A
Emmings: Itve got one question on this. From time to timeabout the extension of Lake Lucy Road out to TH 41. Wherein relation to this property?
Commission
boring data
C j.ty Staf f .
Irve heard
does that come
table this item
I oca t i ng t!.roAlI voted in
Olsen: we have only an approximate location.
Brian Pike: Nothing's been set in stone from what we've been told.
Olsen: The approximate location is in here.
{ Batzli: Are you going to be reserving the right_of_way?L Olsen: As an easement? We are reserving it at this time but therersnothing to prevent them from building on it aE this time.
Jim Dalhart: The church couldn't build on there?
Olsen: Not if we don't have an official right_of_way.
Dacy: We wouldn't recommend it.
rmmings: First of all, does anyone erse have any other comments on thisor is there a motion?
Conrad moved, Batzli seconded that the plaoninguntil. the applicant provides the required soilacceptable septic sites on the propJrty to thefavor and the motion carried.
Headla: Do you know what the Met Council is doing? They just keepplaying hardnose? rt seems like this rrould be an idear situation.
Dacy: The Lake Ann Facirity Agreement has a roE to do with that. To- alror,, one_ property
-
to . hook up, you can have a rot ot-implications fromr Met council's standpoint for arl of trre properti""-.r..i the MUSA line\ there- Number one, therers no acreage availabre to land si{ap. Numbertwo, the City has to do a-ea.g9l by parcel analysis of the entireMUsA tine if we $rant to add additionir u.r.i!"-in-=o-it;" going to be a
the
Planning
JuIy 13,
Commission Meeti ng
1988 - Page I0
(
tinely process
Headla: So it
that affect it?
with no guarantee for
isnrt just the aye or
any applicant to get acreage added.
nay, therers a lot of other things
Dacy: Yes.
PUBLIC HEARING:
REPLAT OF LOT 6 OE
ACRES) ON PROPERTY
OF THE CUL-DE-SAC
AUDUBON ROAD, ROD
SUN RIDGE ADDITION INTO TWO LOTS (2.5 ACRES AND 39.8ZONED A-2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATE AND LOCATED AT THE ENDOE SUN RIDGE COURT, L/2 II.ILE NORTH OF LYMAN BOULEVARD ON
GRAMS .
Barbara Dacy presented the staff report on this item.
Emmings:
the 40, he
correct?
just one question.
only put two houses
Barb,
can
If he
on all
add theof that 20
6g
acres outacres, is there to
tha t
hearing. All voted in
was closed.
{
Dacy: Thatrs correct. Therets one existing house here so herd be arrowedone here and then one still on the big lot.
Emmings: He could divide it up anyvray he r.ranted to but. . .
and thaErs it.Dacy: He gets two more unit.s
Emmings: Is the applicant present?
Dacy: I donrt kno!', what happened to him. Although he does, he is theanchor for Channel 9 so he's probably at work.
Emmings: Are there any members of the public thaE are here to comment onthis. It is a public hearing.
Batzli moved, Ellson seconded to close the public
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing
Headla: Therers a driveway coming off of
map where that would be there?
Audubon. Can you show me on the
Dacy: As part of the original plat approval, I think that was right here
between these tvro lots. The road entrance is just to the north of that
and there is a driveway to an existing house to the north of this site.
Headla: There's a couple of homes there isn'E there?
Dacy: Yes. The existing house here. Therets thatbeing constructed here and then this tot is built on
huge house that's
and this one too.
(
STAIE
hUtrS
OF
@TA
DEPARTMENT OF NATURAT RESOURCES
219 E. Fncntage Rd.
Waconia, I4:r . 55387
442-2317
Jo Ann Olsen
City Planner
690 Coulter St.
Chanhassen, l4::.
7 /27 /88
55317
Subject:
Church site on Hwy. 41
use of the !,roodr,ot for a sewage systen drain site. The trees focated just
south of the the building site has been suggested as a possible drain site.
this would be possible if the tnees were thi.nned out in order to make rDom ror
the drain fiel-d. The tree roots lrould have a tendency to grow into the tile
lines that raould nrake up the drain fieId. rher€ is also a problem cf chemical
damage to the trees from a drain field especially i.f softened n ater is needed
at the site.
Trees would need to be r€moved i, order to place the system. The trees that
are leftfrom the removal operation wourd benefit because of freedom frorrr
competition that exi,sts now. The Non^ray pine trees shouLd have been thir,red
ten years agc in order to maintain a healthy growth pattern. They atso neecto have sonie of the conrpeting hardr^I.od trees removed from around the pines.
the health of the stand would be improved from a thinrrirrg operatiorr and a
drain system could be located in the directi.on ol the r^r.oodlot.
Alan E. OLson
DNR-Forester
Waconia
a
.?,z//Z^O
AUG (] 1 ]9BB
CITY OF C}{ANI.ASSEiI
. wAIERs, SOllS, ANDPATKS ANO RTCIEAIION
ADMINISTNAIIVE SERVICISGAME ANO fISH MtNrIats . IANOS ANO TORtSTtY. TN'OTCI'TCNT AND
'IE1D SEIVICE
*/)-
rffi
(6r2) 59s- 8403July 25, 1988
!ts. JoAnn olsen, Assistant City Plannercity of chanhasseo
590 Coulter Drive
P.o, Box 147
chanhasseo, llirmesota 55317
In Reply Refer To: 315
s. P. 1008 TH 47
Plat revieu of t{estside Baptist Church located
E. of TH 4L, 314 mi. S, of TU 7 in
city of Chanhassen, Carver corrnty
Dear Ms, Olsen:
I,le are in rceipt of the above referenced plat for our review in accordance
with lliffresota Stalutes 505.02 and 505.03 Plats and Surveys. t.Ie find the
plat acceptable for further development with consideragion of the follot -
ing conments:
Dimensi-ons betHeen the exist.ing highway centerline and the adjacent
plat boundary should be shoum on the PIac.
It appears thaE the proposed entrance is designed so that a future
street sould be constructed at this location. l'ln/ DoT currently owns
access control in this area which will be the determining factor in
the Iocation of the proposed entrance. .{o entrance permit must be
applied for and approved before any coflstruccion within the highway
right of r.,a-v may begin. When aPplication is made, the specific
location and design of the entrance will be determined.
It appears that a Riley / Purgatory / Bluff Creek Watershed permir will
be required, as well as a DNR Permit. Drainage appears to be away
from the highway.
If you have any questions in regard to this revieu please contact Evan
creen at 593-8537. Thank you for your cooPeration in Ehis matter.
sin re
M. Craw o P,E
District Engineer
Steve Keefe
lletropolitan Counc il
Roger Gustaf son An Equol opportu lta Emplowr
Carver Co. Publ ic Works
-,----:l'i;;D
JUL Z719BB
CITY OF CHANI.'ASSEII
cc:
Minnesota
Department of Transportation
District 5
2O55 No. Lilac Drive
Golden Valley, Minnesota 55422
RESOURCE ENGINEERING
Roge r E. Machmeicr. PE.
29665 Ncal Avcnuc
Lindstronr. MN 55045
(6t2) 257-2Ot9
Janrcs L. Andcrvrn. C.P.S.S.
3541 Ensign Avcnue. Nonh
New Hopc. MN 5542/
(6t2) 593-5338
EVALUATION OF SITE AND SOILS DATA
FOR
ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT SYSTEU
FOR
PROPOSED WESTSIDE BAPTIST CHURCH
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
by
ROGER E. UACHIIET ER, P.E.
JAMES L. ANDERSON, C. P. S. S.
August 9, 19gg
SPECIALISTS IN ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT
EVALUATION OF SOILS AND SITE DATA FOR
ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT SYSTEM
FOR PROPOSED WESTSIDE BAPTIST CHURCH, CHANHASSEN
On uonday, Auqust 8, soil borings were made to verify
solls data collected and submitted by R & D Soil
Conaultanta. $le made a soil boring approximately nidway
between borings B-I and B-2 and found the soil textule to be
a sandy loam to a depth of 12 inches which changed to a loam
texture with mottling indicating seasonal saturation at a
depth of 24 inches. The soil data as submitted for this
particular site appeared to be reasonably accurate. From
the topography. it appears that the proposed Bound area
could be reoriented so that the long axis sould be
approximately parallel with the I50-foot aetback from the
pond. The top of the knoll area is relatively flat and
there apparently are other portions of the area that nay be
suitabLe for the installation of a sewage treatment mound.
The Iso-foot setback distance needs to be firmly established
and field staked by that authority responsible for the
setback so that there is no future arqument or discussion
about the setback location. The 1so-foot setback must be
staked before any further site and soils investigation for
the design of a nound on the location designated rPrimary
septic Area. "
We then moved to an area along the
lot rrhich had also been investigated by
Consultanta. A soil boring in the area
south edge of the
Bs D soi I
of B-4 encountered
Westside Baptist Church Page 2 of 6
The soil texture in the boring hole which we made
appears to be suitable for the installation of drainfield
trenches. however, additional borings will need to be taken
to a depth of at least 3 feet deeper than the bottom of the
proposed trenches. The area is covered with a planted grove
of red pine varying in diameter from 4 to g lnches. The
tree rows are not on the contour so that if drainfield
trenches were installed, a number of the trees irould have
to be removed. Thinning, howeverl rnay be beneficial to the
stand of trees. The slope of the area delineated by borings
B-3 and B-4 is approximately 20 percent as measured with an
sandy loan to a depth of 8 inches where clay loam texture
eraa encountered. This boring hole nas stopped at a depth of
about 20 inches because of an obstruction. Another boring
hole ras made apptoxinately 12 feet weat of B-4. SoiI
texture graded from sandy IoaD to loam wlth no evidence of
nottling at 16 inches as the consultants indicated for
boring B-4. The soil taE a dull color and there were some
variations in color but none of which indicated seasonal
saturation. At a depth of 33 inches, the texture changed to
a silt loam but rrith no evidence of mottling which would
indicate seasonal saturation. The soil texture changed to a
loan at a depth of 4 feet without any evidence of seasonal
saturat i on.
Westside Baptist Church Page 3 of 6
Abney hand level.This slope is
is suitable for
somewhat steep for mound
construction but trench lnstallation.
The tocation as Proposed for the church building would
apparently change the existing contour lines according to
the map dated 7-26-88. The natural contours must be allowed
to remain if the sewage system is installed in the area of
the red pines on the south portion of the ProPerty. rt may
be necessary to readjust the location of the church and
parking area to the north if the area amongst the existing
pine trees is used for the soil treatment system. There is
also considerable area along the south Property line to the
rrest of the proposed church location that should be
Before any further site investigations for a sewage
treatment system on this property, an estimate should be
made of the maximum daily sewage flon rhich would be used
for sizing the septic tank or tanks and an average daily
aewage flow which rrould be used for sizing the soil
absorption unit. This infornation iE necessary so that the
6ite evaluator identifies an adequate area of soil suitable
for the soil absorption unit. The estinate of seeraqe flow
should include the days xhen the congregation is present for
either services or fellowship activities plus the day-to-day
sewage flow for staff who are on the premises. A design
rate of sewage flow is necessary for the design of either a
trench or mound system.
Westside Baptlst Church Page 4 of 5
investigated as far as soil suitability for an onsite sewage
treatment system. There is a natural drainageway fron the
gouth leading onto the property and this eould need to be
considered when deeigning the seirage treatnent system.
There should be, however, an area approxinately 60 feet wide
by several hundred feet long that could be investigated for
the suitabtlity of drainfield trenches. such trencheE can
be installed in forest vegetation and the major trees
allosed to remain.
There is another potential site for a drainfield in the
southwest portion of the property. There are arso some red
Pines ohich have been planted ln this area along with other
wooded vegetation. Again, if the soil is suitable,
drainfield trenches could be installed on the contour with
the major trees being allowed to remain and the area allored
to return to its wooded vegetation. Effluent ldould need to
be pumped to the area from the sewage source. This is true,
however, of the other sites nhi.ch nere also investigated on
the property.
Drainfield trenches can be located in wooded vegetation
saving those trees which are located betlreen the trenches.
While.the construction is somewhat rnore difficult irith the
trees present, the renaining trres erill likely have no
adverse effect but rather a beneficial effect upon the
operation of the system. with drop box distribution. only
Westside Baptist Church Page 5 of 6
those trenches which are needed to hydraulically accept and
.treat the septic tank effluent will be supplled with
effluent. If effluent is ponded in a trench, roots will not
grow into this oxygen-def ic i ent septic tank effluent but
wiII grow to the net soil surrounding the trench where
oxygen is present, thus increasing the effectiveness of the
sewage treatment system during the growing season. Those
trenches which do not receive effluent wilt be dry and there
will be no attraction for the roots to grow tolrard or into
these trenches. This condition will be true hrhether
gravel-fi).led or gravelless trenches are installed.
Gravelless trench consists of a corrugated plastic
tubing surEounded by a geotextile fabric and eliminates the
need for rock or gravel in a drainfield trench. The
advantage of the gravelless trench is that construction
activity is considerably less since no trench rock need to
be distributed on the site. The gravelless trenches are
carried to and placed in a 24-inch wide Ievel trench
excavation by hand. Gravelless trenches installed in the
wooded area vrould minimize the amount of trees that rrould
need to be removed and would minimize the amount of
construction activi.ty necessary.
It is important to note that surface drainage will have
to be carefully assessed and evaluated when this property is
developed. There is drainage from the proPerty immediately
Westside Baptist Church Page 5 of 6
to the south which is wooded at the pre8ent time. If the
abutting property is developed and the wooda Eemoved. there
may b9 conslderably nore runoff onto the property being
evaluated. Provision should be made to direct all runoff
through the property without causing any damage or
inconvenience.
I hereby declare that I am a certified SiteEvaluator and Onsite Sewage Treatnent System
Designer (Certificate No. 845) as designatedby the lrlinnesota Pollution Controt Agency
and that this site investigation !{as
conducted by me or under my direct
supervis ion.
J s L. Anderson,.P.S.S.
I hereby certify that I am a RegisteredProfessional Engineer in Minnesota (Reg. No.6745) and that this site investigation wasconducted by me or under my directsupervision. I also declare that I am acertified Individual Sewage Treatment SystemDesigner and Site Evaluator (Certificat- No.
53O) as designated by the MinnesotaPollution Control Agency.
'[h
Roge
REM/j jm
L
E. Mach meler, P.E
E
CITY OF
THINHISSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
MEI4ORANDUM
TO: Planning Commission and City Council
FROM: Planning Staff
DATE: August 10, 1988
SUBJ: Tim Erhart ProDosal
The attached proposal was tabled at the July 20, 1988, Planning
Commission meeting. The body of the report is the same as pre-
sented on July 20, 1988, with a new staff update and recommen-
dation on Page 3.
CITY OF
EHANIIASSTI\I
STAFF REPORT
P.C. DATE: July 20; 1988
C.C. DATE: Aug. 3, I988
CASE NO: 88-18 S0B
Prepared by: Olsen,/v
Fz
()
=(LL
ko
lrtha
Preliminary Plat to Subdivide 76.5 Acres Intoa 10 Acre Parcel and a 66.5 Acre parcel
PROPOSAT:
LOCATION:
".:.-J/t{/P(-
775 lrlest 96th Street
Tim and Dahrne Erhart
775 West 96th Street
Chanhassen, MN 55317
A-2i
76.s
Agricultural Estate
acre s
N-
s-
E-
w-
A-2;vacant
single
single
vacan t
A-2i f ami 1y
family and open space
agriculturaJ.
A-2i
A-2i
I{ATER AND SEWER:Water and sewer is not available.
PEYSICAL CHARAC. :Open area
Agricultural
agricultural.
'-t/--
j.-, -: '.---.- ,- --
APPLICANT:*-Jtz-a/t" --
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENSITYs
ADJACENT ZONING
AND LAND USE:
2OOO tAND USE PLAN:
F
UJ(r(,
Q\I EVA R t8
L:*r"., q yz-c**r-r.t
SoOoNlc-Lc\_l I
SF
POt +\l
a--'d--J C3
I
t
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t
PUD-
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biot
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I
Erhart Subdivision
,ru1y 20, 1988
Page 2
APPLICABLE REGULATIONS
The Subdivision ordinance
rural- area which cannot be
platting of any lot in the
subdivided.
requl resfurther
Rural
and a
lot regulations
maximum densi ty
requi res
of I unit a minimum lot area of 2.5 acresper 10 acres.
Each created 1ot must provide two acceptable septic sites.
REFERRAL AGENCIES
Public Safety Director
Asst. City Engineer
ANALYSIS
Att ac hment
ALtachmen t
#2
#3
The applicant is proposing to subdivideparcel. The remaining 66.5 acre parcel
not proposed to be developed.
10 acres from a 75.5will remain as is and
ac re
Parcel A meets all of the requirements of the rural lot regula-tions and of the A-2 District. Parcel B also meets the minimum
requirements of the rural lot regulations and the A-2 District.
As the preliminary plat is now, both Parcel A and B will becomeplatted l-ots. It was the intent of the applicant to only plat
Parcel A and leave Parcel B unplatted. The plat should be
amended to show Parcel A and maintain the remaining acreage as a
metes and bounds description.
The applicant had soi]. borings performed on Parcel B but two
approved septic sites have not been confirmed. Since the pro-perty is being split Parcel B will have a separate 1egal descrip-tion and coutd be sold and developed as a single family 1ot.Therefore, staff is recommending that the applicant provirie the
necessary information locating tvro approved septic sites onParcel B.
Streets
fn the attached memo, the Assistant City Engineer addressesstreet right-of-way. The Assistant City Engineer is requesting a30 foot roadway easement along the south bound.ary of the subjectsite. The land south of the subject site is already plaLted
( Pioneer Hil-Is) or cannot be subdivided. Therefore, it r.riLl oedifficult to obtain the remaining 30 foot easement necessary for astreet. Staff is recommending that the applicant provide a 30foot roadway easement to the Worm property and a 60 foot roadway
easemenE. west of the Worm property (Attachment #4).
Erhart SubdivisionJuly 20, 1988
Page 3
RECOMMENDAT I ON
Planning staff recommends the Planning Commission adopt thefollowing motion:
"The Planning Commission reconrmends approval of Subdivision
Request *88-tB as shown on the plat stamped nReceived June 30,
1988" and subject to the following condition:
I. Prior to final plat approval, it sha11 be shor,rn that Parcel B
has two acceptable septic sites.n
PLANNING COMMISSION ACTION
The applicant requested that the Planning Conmission table the
application until additional information on septic sites' roadway
easements and Park and Recreation action could be provided.
STAEF UPDATE
2. The applicant sha11 provide a 30 foot roadway easement alongthe southerly boundary of the subject site to the westerly
boundary of the worm property and a 60 foot roadway easement
along the southerly boundary of the subject site west of the
Worm property.
On August 8, 1988, Drs. Machmeier and Anderson visisted the sub-
ject site and determined that there is area for two septic sitses
ihould the 66.5 acre parcel be developed (Attachment #6). The
Park and Recreation Commission reviewed the proposal on August 9,
1988. Attachment #7 reviews the action taken by the Park and
Recreation Commission.
The applicant met hrith staff to discuss the recommended 60 foot
roadwly easement along the southerly boundary of the property.
It was discussed that a future street through the subjecE pro-
perty, which would connect with Pioneer Hills to the south, would
not be located in a straight line between the two properties due
to the Eopographical restraints. Staff had recommended the 50
foot easement Lo preserve an access for future road connections.
Because there are many outstanding issues which impact the u1tsi-
mate location of a road through the subject property, the City
may wish to wait until the 66.5 acre parcel is proposed to be
subdivided before reserving a roadway easement. If and when the
65.5 acre parcel is subdivided (platted), the city has the right
to acquire road right-of-way as part of a plat.
The applicant is willing to provide a 30 foot easement up to
Flintlock Trail for future road connection to Pioneer Hi1Is.
If only a 30 foot roadway easement is provided, the city rrould
have to acquire the additional 30 feet necessary from the DeJoode
property and Lot 4, Block 1, Pioneer Hills for a road to be
installed.
Erhart Subdivision
JuIy 20, 1988
Page 4
The Planning Commission and City Council should determine whetherthey feel a 30 foot roadway easenent to Flintlock Trail is ade-quate or if the full 60 feet should be reserved. The subjectparcel developed (55.5 acres) can be subdivided at this time.The DeJoode and Pioneer Hills property cannot be subdivided unt.i1serder and water is available and they can meet the ZoningOrdinance requirements.
RECOMMENDATI ON
Planning staff recommends thefollowing motion:
Planning Commission adopt the
"The Planning Commission recommends approval of SubdivisionRequest #88-18 to plat one 10 acre parcel and maintain a 66.5acre parcel as a metes and bounds description with the followingconditions:
I The applicant provide an amended platacres) as Lot I and maintaining parcel
metes and bounds description.
creat i ngB (66.5 Parcel
acres )
A (10
as a
2
ATTACHMENTS
The applicant provide at least a 30 foot roadway easementalong the southerly property line up to Flintlock Trai1.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7I
Excerpt from City Code.
Memo from Public Safety Director dated July 6, 199g.
Memo from Asst. City Engineer dated JuIy 13, L988.Plan showing proposed roadway easement.Application.
Report from Machmeier dated August 9, 1999.
Memo from Lori Sietsema dated August IO, 1999.Reduced preJ.iminary pIaE stamped ',Received June 30,1988".
$ 18-36 CHANHASSEN CIT' CODE
DIVISION 2. PLATTING PROCEDURES
Sec. l&36. Generally.
Notice requirement and procedures set forth in this chapter in excess of those required bystate law are directory. Fa ure to comply with such procedures will not invalidate theproceedings.
(Ord. No. 33-D, $ 4.3, 2-25-85)
o
o
Sec. l&37. Exemption.
(a) The city clerk shall certify that the following couveyances are exempt from platting ifthe new and residual parcers meet the minimum requirements of the zoning ord.inance for a
buildable lot and are on an existing pubric street- The appricant shall furnish the city a s,rveyprepared and signed by a registered land surveyor for review:
(1) Dividing a platted lot to add a portion of the lot to an abutting lot;
' (2) Dividing a metes and bouuds parcel to add a portion of the parcel to an abutting
parcel;
(3) In areas outside the Metropolitan counc 's lgg0 urban service area, the separation
of a parcel into two (2) or three (3) parcels if all resulting parcels are capable of being
further subdivided into buildable lots under the zoning ordinance.
(b) The city council may approve a metes and bounds subdivision ofa platted lot into two(2) lots in areas inside the Metropolitan council's 1990 urban service area if both resulting
lots meet the minimurrr requirements of the zoning ordinance and abut an existing public
street. To the extent possible, the new boundary line shall be parallel to a previously existing
lot line. The city council shall hold a public hearing on the proposed subdivision after notice ofthe date, time, place and purpose of the hearing has been pubrished once in the officiar
newspaper' and a proposed development notification sign has been erected on the subject
property by the applicant, both at least ten (10) days before the date ofhearing. Written notice
shall also be mailed by the city to the applicant and all owners of record within live hundred
(500) feet of the outer boundaries of the subdivision. Failure to post a proposed development
notilication sign or to give notice or defects in the notice shall not affect the validity of the
proceedings. At least three (3)
'veeks
prior to the hearing the applicant shall submit to the
city:
(1) A survey (prepared and signed by a registered land surveyor);
(2) A list ofproperty owners within five hundred (b00) feet ofthe boundaries ofthe parcel
to be subdivided;
(3) Except as waived by the city, all information required for plats.
(Ord. No. 33-D, $ 4.2, 2-25-85)
1000 F)
CITY OF
EHINHISSEN
ME MOR AND UM
TO:
E'ROU:
SUBJ:
DATE :
Barb Dacy, Planning Di rector
Jim Chaffee, Public Safety Director
Planning Case *88-18 SUB
July 6, 1988
I have reviewed the above plan from a public safetyperspective and at this tine I have no input. It appearsthat three (3) dead end streets will be available to servicethis piece of property. Hoi{ever, a change in presentaccessibility is not indicated and therefore, public safetyresponse wilI not be significantly altered if at aI1.
ilz
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O, BOX I47 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
CITY OF
EHINHISSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
MEMORANDUU
IO: Planning Commission
FROM: tarry Brorrn, Staff Enginee
DATE: JuIy 13, 1988
This site is located
Area (MUSA) and does
'd!
SUBJ: Preliminary Plat Review for 775 West 96th Street
Planning File No. 88-18 SUB, Tim Erhart
This 76.5 acre site is located at the westerly entl of West
Street and is composed of a rolling topography with mature
tation scattered throughout the site.
Sanitary Sewer
96th
veg e-
outside of the l"letropolitan Urban Service
not have access to municipal sanitary sewer.
.l{aterma in
Municipal water service is not available to
existing residence is presentJ-y served from
the site.
a private The
well .
The existing resiilence receives access from a long driveway which
extend.s to west 96th Street. If Outlot B is ever subdivided,
access should be acquired from Flintlock Trail or Homestead Lane.
On JuIy 6, 1987, the City Council approved the final plat for the
adjoining Jeurissen subdivision contingent upon Jeurissen de'li-
cating to the City a 30-foot roadway easement along its north
boundiry. This easement ',roulal help facilitate the extension of
West 96th street to the west should the need occur ( refer to
Attachment I). It is likewise recommended that a 30-foot roadway
easement also be dedicated to the City along the southerly boun-
dary of the Erhart plat to facilitate the future extension of
l{est 96th Street.
Acces s
Gradinq and Drainaqe
The plans do not propose any grading or drainage changes to the
site.
F
Planning Commi ssion
July 13, 1988
Page 2
At t achmen t
1 Location Map of Jeurissen Subdivision.
It is therefore recornmended that the preliminary plat for theErhardt Subdivision dated nReceived June 11, 1988" be approvedupon the following condit ions:
I. The applicant shall provide the City rdith a roadway easementalong the southerly 30 feet of the entire Erhardt plat priorto final plat approval.
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I.AND DEVBLOPI{ENT APPLICATION
CITY OF CEANEASSEN
690 Coulter Drive
chanhassen, MN 55317(612) 937-1900
I r- f ny.an(a./-+-APPLICANT:
ADDRESS !c^t_
OWNER:
ADDRESS -)t u96 1u s4
CL r^\t -'te . ltr ^ u-t^ll
z rp code Zip Code
TELEPHONE (D Y Limel t-l)n- llt
REQTIEST:
Zoning District Change
Zoning Appeal
Zoning Variance
Zoning Text Amendment
Land Use Plan Amendment
Conditional Use Permit
Site Plan Review
PROJECT NAME
TELEPHONE Vvf zJ"rq
Planned Unit Development
_ Sketch Plan
_ Preliminary plan
Final Plan
Subdivi s i on
\. Platting
Metes and Bounds
Street/Easement Vacation
Wetlands Permit
PRESENT I,AND USE PLAN DESIGNATI
REQUESTED LAND USE PLAN DESIGNA
PRESENT ZONING
ON
TION
A-r
A
REOUESTED ZONING A-t
USES PROPOSED
SIZE OT' PROPERTY 1.q a;aa t
LOCATION
REASONS FOR THIS REQUEST
k5
A..
LEGAL DESCRIPTION (Attach legal if necessary)
l)r
Date t /,
,1 5+V\JCi.ty o
Land D
Page 2
f Chanhassen
eveLopment. Application
This application must be completed in fuLl and be typewritten orclearly printed and must be iccompani"a-oy all information andptans required bv roplicabie-;;r;';;;i;"nce provisions. Beforefiling this aootie"ii?!, you shoitd confer with the City plannerto deternine iire soeciri.'".airir';; ;;;'p.o"edurar requiremenrsapplicable to your applicat ion .
-.'-- -"-
FI L ING INS TRUCT IONS:
applicable Cit
The undersilned rthat he is fami Ii epresentative of the applicant hereby certifiesar.rdith the procedurur' i"quii"*.iiI-it'Ittrdinances -
I
The undersigned hereby certifies that the applieant has been:::::ii:;: to make ttris appiic"ti".,-i"r..the properry herein
Signed By
App r I Car
Signed By
Fee Qwn
Date Application Received tu-)t-B
Application Fee paid d
r
Date
')i\
:1
,n
+l,u Lir,',?, .... \. .,|.L.
:, -., ;.-l
ca
City Receipt no! 9.L}t.a .,4LU a.f 1-!r i.'-,?li-
This Application will bBoard of AdjustmenLs anmeeting.
ons ideredppeals at by
r.h
theeir
ec
dA Planning Corunission,/
FTLING CERTIFICATION:
---
RESOURCE ENGINEERING
Roger E. Machnreicr. P.E
29665 Neal Avenuc
Lindstrom. MN 55045
(6t2\ 2s7-2O19
James L. Andcrson- C.PS.S
3541 Ensign Avcnuc. Nonh
Nc\v Hope. MN 554,
(612) 593-5338
EVALUATION OF SITE AND SOILS DATA
POR
ONSITE SEY{AGE TREATI,IENT SYSTEU
POR
TIM ERHART SUBDIVIS ION
CITY OE CHANHASSEN
by
ROGER E. MACHMEIER' P. E.
JAMES L. ANDERSON, C.P.S.S-
August 9, 1988
SPECIALISTS IN ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT *b
EVALUATION OF SOILS AND SITE DATA EOR
ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT SYSTE}i
FOR TIM ERHART SUBDIVISION, CHANHASSEN
Erhart owns a total 80 acre parcelr 10 acreg of which rrilI
be subdivided off sith the existing house and buildings. In
order to conform with Chanhassen Subdivision Regulations, teo
suitable sites for an onsite sewage treatment systen need to be
identified on 70 acres. n soil boring wag made on a knoll
approximatly 5OO feet west of the house. Texture in the top
foot was loam, grading to a clay 1oam soll. Due to the recent
ralns, the soil moisture yras present to a depth of
approxiurately 24 inches. Belos this depth the tdxture was a
loam or clay loam. Some mottling may possibly be present
although this condition was difficult to detect because of the
dry soil conditions. The entire knoll appears to be of the
same land forn and there is eaeily area available for tuo soil
treatment units for an onsite sesage treatment system for an
individual home site.
The purpose of our site investigation was to determine
only that tlro potential sites for a sewage treatment system are
available on the 70 acres. Should this total area be
subdivided in the future, it will be necessary to provide
additional soils information for each proposed 10t.
.Some soil data were subnitted which were collected in
1985. These d.ata did not seem to correspond with the data
plotted on the urap which was sent to us since boring numbers
and identification did not natch. The 1985 soil data should
Tim Erhart Subd ivi s ion
not be conaideEed suitable for any
area nor Ehould the eoil data which
for the design of an onsite sewage
Page 2 of 2
future evaluation of this
we col, Lected be suitable
treatment system.
On the test portion of the 7o-acre tract, there appears to
be a lo, area, possibly a wetland. There are also a number of
drainageways on the acreage in which the soil is likely mottled
at shallow depths. On any future propoaed eubidiviElona the
area wilL need to be carefully J.aid out so that each of the
proposed lots does have two sites which are suitable for the
installation of an onsite seirage treatment system.
J es L. An erson,.P..s.
I hereby certify that I am a Registered
Professional Engineer in Minnesota (Reg. No.
6745) and that this site investigation was
conducted by me or under my directsupervision. I also declare that I an acertified Individual Sewage Treatment System
Designer and Site Evaluator (Certificate No.
530) as designated by the Minnesota Pol,lution
Control Agency.
/ t{^e^""-
tyh
Roge r
REM/j jm
['lachme er, P. E.
I hereby declare that I am a certified Site
Evaluator and Onsite Sewage Treatment System
Designer (Certificate No. 845) as deslgnatedby the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency andthat this site investigation was conducted by
ne or under my direct supervision.
CITY OF
EHINHISSEN
MEMORANDUM
TO: Jo Ann Olsen, Assistant
FROM: Lori Sietsema, Park and
DATE: August 11, 1988
SUBJ: Erhart Subdivision
City Planner
Recreation Coordinator
The Park and. Recreation Commission recently reviewed the sub-division proposal submitted by Tim Erhart. The Commission hasidentified natural trail segments within this subdivision alongthe south and. east sides, and across the northwest. corner.
Mr. Erhart, rlrho has been very instrumental in identifying naturaltrail segments within the southern part of Chanhassen, has askedthaE the acquisition of these trail easements be postponed untilthe time of development. Two of the sections of trail identifiedare located along a field road and a driveway. Mr. Erhart feltthat acquisition of the easements woulai be more appropriate rrzhen(,re know exactly how the property $rould develop.
In the meantime he plans to continue to maintain the trails andallow pedestrians to use them.
The Park and Recreation Commission unanimously voted to recomneodthat park dedication fees be acquired in l_ieu of parkland andthat the trail easements along the south and east sides, andacross the northwest corner be required at the time of develop-
ment .
b1
690 COULTER DBIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 553'17
(612) 937-1900
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CITY OF
EHINHASSEN
STAFF REPORT
P.C. DATE: Aug. 17, L988
C.C. DATET Sept. 12, 1988
CASE NO: WAP 88-8 and
cuP 88-13
Prepareil by: Dacy/v
Fz
()
=LL
ko
hJFa
PROPOSAL: 1) Conditional Use Permit for a Garden Center
2) Wetland AlteraLion Permit to Create a Stormwater pond
inaClassBWetland
LOCATION: North of and adjacent to West 78th Street,the Dakota Avenue/TH 5 intersection
just east of
:,--r :,, i-. i,-riistr:tot
v'
APPLICANT: .Jay Kronick
1609 Marshall AvenueRockville, Maryland 20851
E'o
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DBNSITY:
ADJACENT ZONING
AND LAND USE:
WATER AND SEUIER:
PEYSICAL CEARAC.:
2OOO I,AND USE PLAN:
N-
S-
E-
w-
BH, Business Highway and IOP, Industrial
Office Park Di strict
3.7 acres
R-12, multiple family & Eden Prairie
BEi vacant commercial
IOP, Redmond Products
BE; chanhassen office Building
Available to site
The site is flat and contains a wetland.
Commercial and Industrial
r:tt -87-
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-770O
- 8200RSF
-86OO
Garden
Augus t
Page 2
Cen ter17, 1988
REFERRAL AGENCIES
Engineering Department
Army Corps of Engineers
BuiLding Department
Public Safety Department
Park and Recreation Coordinator
B ACKGROUND
The City Council at the June 13, 1988, meeting, approved thezoning ordinance amendment request to amend the BH, Business
Highway District to aIIow garden centers as a conditional use.The City Council tabled action on the land use plan amendment andthe rezoning reguest for the easterly half of the property from
IOP to BH until a site plan is submitted (see attached minutes).
The applicant has prepared the wetland alteration permit and theconditional use permit applications to comply with Council direc-tion.
?he applicant had made a previous application in l-987 for a gar-
den center in the RR, Rural Residential District. The Planning
Commission on September 9, 1987, recommended deniaL of therequest and the City Council at the October 5, 1987, meeting alsodenied the request to allow the garden center in the RR District.
The City Stormhrater llanagement Plan, prepared by Barr Engineering(dated September, 1987), identified the necessity for a storm-water pond within Lhe subject property. Because wetland vegeta-tion exists throughout the property and because the city hasidentified an overall storm$/ater management need, the wetlandalteration application is proposed as a joint application r^riththe appl icant.
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT
ANALYS IS
The applicant is proposing a garden center including construction
of a l-,200 square foot sales building, a I,200 sguare foot
greenhouse, outd.oor display areas and associated parking facili-ties. The following conditional use standards are reviewed indi-vidually against E.he proposed request (Section 20-232)z
Attachment #1
Attachment #4
I. Will not be detrimental to or endanger the public heal-th,
Attachment #2
Attachment *3
The applicant will need topay park and trail dedicationfees at time of building permitapplication.
G ar den
Augu s t
Page 3
Center
17, 1988
safety. comfort, convenience or
borhood or the city.
general welfare of the neigh-
* The proposed use does not generate the type of impacts
which would endanger the health, safety or welfare of thearea in which it is located. It is well separated fromthe multiple family residential site to the north and islocated betseen an existing office building on the west
and an office and distribution facility on the east.
wiLl be consistent with the objectives of the city's compre-hensive plan and this chapter.
*The western half of the property is designated on the landuse plan as commercial and is zoned BE, Business Highway.
The proposed construction is located on this portion ofthe property. The easterly portion of the property iden-tified for future expansion is guided as industrial and
zoned industrial . The City Council will act on therequest to ledesignate and rezone this portion of the par-cel to conmercial when the application is submitted to the
Counci I .
Will be designed, constructed, operated, and maintained so tobe compatible in appearance with the existing or intendedcharacter of the general vicinity and will not change theessential- character of that area.
3
One of the impacts from the proposed use is the outdoordisplay of plants, shrubs and outdoor storage of fer-tilizer and mulch materials. The applicant has indicatedthat a two foot berm will be located along the front pro-perty line along West 78th Street planted with flower! toprovide for an initial "edgen to the front of the displayarea in front of the sales building. A shade lattice willalso be located on the west side of the proposed salesbuilding. While the outdoor display of materials is anessential part of a garden center use, it also needs to beproperly contained so as not to present a haphazardappearance. Staff reconmends installation of a two foothedge along the east side of the display area in front ofthe sales building to contain the display area and toscreen the structures used to hold the potted materials orthe base of balled and burlapped trees.
To the rear of the building, the applicant hasappropriately locat.ed storage of the bags of fertilizerand mulch. This area woulal also be a display area. Afterconferring with the applicant regarding the iecessity ofscreening, the applicant has indicated that he wouldconstruct an enclosure for the bags of fertilizer andmulch.
Ga rden
Augus t
Page 4
Center17, r988
The proposed greenhouse, although sma11 in size, will bereadily visible from TE 5 and adjacent properties. Uponconferring with the applicant regarding the necessity to
minimize its visual impact, the applicant has agreed to
install a six foot evergreen hedge or similar material
along its south, west and north sides.
The greenhouse will also be shifted ten feet to the eastto comply with the comments of the Building Inspector.
The retail sales building does not have to be sprinklered
because it is below the minimum threshold for sprinklering.
Will not be hazardous or disturbing to existing or planned
neighboring uses.
* The proposed garden center does not pose hazarilous or
disturbing impacts that would adversely affect existing or
adjacent uses.
Will be served adequately by essential public facilities and
services, including streets, police and fire protection,
drainage structures, refuse disposal, water and sehler systems
and schools; or will be served adequately by such facilities
and services provided by the persons or agencies responsible
for the establishment of the proposed use.
4
5
wi 11 not create excessive
and services and rvill not
welfare of the communitY.
The parcel will be served by water and sewer and
by the West 78th Street frontage road. west 78th
will ultimately connect to a full intersection at
Road/l84th Street and TH 5 and the new TII 101/TH
section r.rest of Dakota.
is served
Street
De I1
5 inter-
See Engineering report for grading anal drainage issues-
requirements for public facil-i Eies
be detrimental to Ehe economic
The proposed use will not
lities or services which
welfare of the communitY.
additional public faci-
detrimental to the
requ i re
would be
will not involve uses, activities, processes, materials,
equipment and conditions of operaE.ion thats wilI be detrimen-
til- to any persons, property or the general $,e1f are because
of excessive production of traffic, noise, smoke, fumes,
glare, odors, rodents, or trash.
The major external impact resulting
aesthetic appearance as described in
applicant has properly addressed the
from this use is the
standard *3. The
necessity for a trash
6.
7.
Garalen
Aug us t
Page 5
Cen te r17, I988
enclosure. No fumes or odors (other than the sme11 orflowers! ) will be generated from the site. The trafficgenerated by the use can be acconmodated by the existingstreet system.
WiIl have vehicular approaches to the property which do notcreate traffic congestion or interfere with traffic orsurrounding public thoroughfares.
*
8
9
One driveway access to the site is proposed. The siteprovides for a stand ard, 24 foot wide driveway.
Not.e that the applicant is also proposing instalLation ofa gate at the entrance to the site for security reasons.
The applicant has indicated that it would be woodframeconstruction of 4 to 5 feet in height. The Public SafetyDepartment indicated that the gate should be locked by achain instead of another locking mechanism so that thechain can be severed in an emergency.
WiII not resul-t in the destruction, Ioss or damage of solaraccess, natural , scenic or historic features of majorsignificance.
* The wetland alteration permit application addresses the
changes to the naturaL features of the site. The city has
worked with the applicant to a11ow construction on theproperty but maintaining an area on the rear of the pro-perty to comply with U. S. Fish and Wildlife guidelinesfor wetland configurations as well as creating a storm-water pond.
The applicant is proposing the display of plant materialswithin the 75 foot setback. The setback pertains tostructures. The proposed structures exceed the setback.
10. Will be aesthetically compatible with the area.
The reconmendations identified in condition #3 also applyto this standard. The proposed retail sales building isof rdoodframe construction with cedar lapped siding. Thegreenhouse is approximately 12 feet in height and will beconstructed of the typical plastic material used forgreenhouses (refer to page 4 of the plan packet). Whileadjacent structures are of concrete block construction,the woodframe building will not deter from the generalcharacter of the area. The greenhouse structure, however,is made of a material that is not typically found in com-mercial districts. The additional screening discussedearlier will minimize the view of the greenhouse.
11. !fi11 not depreciate surrounding property va.Iues.
The proposed site improvements and construction are suchthat it is not believed that the use will depreciate
surrounding property values.
No specific conditions were established for this use.conditional use permit application adequately addressesthe impacts from the proposed use.
*The
Summary
The proposed site plan meets the standards for parking, site
coverage, and the lot and structure requirements of the BHDistrict. As to the lighting standards, a high pressure sodiumwall light is proposed on the east side of the building. An
existing street light exists at the proposed entrance from West
78th Street. No other lighting i.s proposed.
The additional plantings discussed in standard #3 should help to
define the display areas and screen the greehouse. Staff would
also recommend that the permit be reviewed again in one year to
evaluate the effectiveness of the screening proposed and to
determine if additional screening is necessary.
The City will also join the applicant in a subdivision applica-
tion to plat the property to convey the wetland area to the city
and to retain the necessary utility and drainage easements.
RECOMMENDATfoN - Conditional Use Permit
Planning staff recommends the Planning Commission adopt the
following motion:
"The Planning Commission recommends approval of Conditional Use
Permit RequesE #88-13 based on the site plan stamped "Received
July 26, 1988" and subject to the following conditions:
1. Installation of a 6 foot evergreen screen along the south,
hrest and north rrralls of the greenhouse and installation of a
2 fooL hedge along the east side of the display area in front
of the sales building.
2
3
Approval of Wetland Alteration Permit Request #88-8.
The applicant shaIl file a plat application in conjunction
with the City of Chanhassen to reserve the necessary utility
easements and to properly convey the northerly portion of the
site to the City.
Garden Center
August 17, 1988
Page 6
12. WilI meet standards prescribed for certain uses as provided
in this article.
G arden
Augu s t
Page 7
Cen te r
r7, 1988
The site sha11 be reviewed in one year to evaluate the effec-
tiveness of tshe screening.
The applicant shall enter into a ilevelopment contract with
the City and provide the City with the necessary financial
sureties to guarantee the installation of these public
improvements.
The sanitary sewer service sha11 have a sand trap prior to
discharging into the public sanitary sewer system.
4
6
7 Details for the installation and conneccion of the
sewer and water services shall be submitted to the
Engineer for approval prior to final approval.
A check valve sha1l be instal-led on the sanitaryvice prior to discharge into the public sanitary
system.
s an i tary
City
I
9
sewer ser-
s ewer
10. A revised grading, drainage and erosion control plan shaLl be
submitted to the City Engineer for approval as part of thefinal review process.
11. The proposed water service connection sha11 be "wet tapped"in accordance hrith the latest published version for the
Standard Specifications for Utility Installation from the
American Water Works Association (AWWA).
12. Details for the service connection to the l0-inch diameter
watermain should be submitted to lhe City Engineer for appro-
va1 prior to final approval .
WETLAND ALTERATION P ER,MIT
The proposeil utility easements shal40-foot wide utility easement whichexisting and proposed utilities.
1be revised to include asha1l cover all oi the
of
be
City staff inspected the site with Jim Leach on May 72, 1988.majority of the site contains type 2 wetland vegetatsion. Theprimary wetland vegetation is reed grass, although t.here arepockets of cattails. Mr. Leach reported that the wetland wasmarginal quality and a creation of an open water area incompliance with the U. S. Fish and Wildlife conditions wouldbeneficial in restoring the eretland to a better state.
A
As mentioned in the Background Section of this report, theStormwater Management PIan for the city identified this area asneeding a stormwater management pond (refer to Engineeringregort). Mr. Leach advised us at the time of inspection that an
Ariny Corps of Engineers permit would be required. The city inconjunction with the applicant applied for a permit. A copy ofthe permit is attached. The Army Corps conditioned approvll ofthe permit subject to the standard six conditions of lhe u. S.Fish and Wildlife Service. The proposed design of the pond has afree form to it and has shallow embankments to encourage growthof emergent vegetation for refuge for wi1dlife. the permit alsoaIlo!,rs the excavated material to be placed toward the front partof the site as fill material . The soils consist of sandy andsilty clay material . It should be noted that the runoff from theproposed garden center improvements are not directed tor^rard thewetland but to the ditch along West 78th Street.
Because the design of the wetland will meet UWildlife standards, the project will not onlyof the r,retland in this area but also provide
ment function.
. S. Fish and
improve the qual itya stormwater manage-
RECOMMENDAT ION Wetland Alteration Permit
Planning staff recommends the Planning Commission adopt thefollowing motion:
"The Planning Commission recommends approval of WetlandAlteration Permit *88-8 based on the plans stamped "Received July26, 1988" and subject to the foJ-Iowing conditions:
1. Approval of Conditional Use Permit Request #88-11.
2. Compliance with the Army Corps of Engineerr s conditions of
approval .
ATTACHMENTS
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
Memo from Larry Brown dated August 10, 1988.Letter from Army Corps of Engineers dated August 3,
llemo from Steve Kirchman ,3ated August 8, 1988.
Memo from Jim Chaffee dated August 3, 1988.City Council minutes dated June 13, 1988.
Planning Commission minutes dated June 1, I988.
Plans stamped "Received July 26, 1988" .
1988.
Manager ' s Comments :The proposed use is one \,Jhich can easily
become uncontrollable. A Lyndale Gard.en type of operation lrou1d
be devastating tc the "tanqle tor.r,n" intersection of Dakota/TH 5/
TH l-0I,/frontage road. Parking sEandards could prove to be ade-quate or tot.ally inadequate. This office wouLd recommend that,if approved, that City Attorney's office clearly identify each ofthe permissions being granted to insure that storage/sa1-es/
s creen j.ng/parki ng,/etc . are defined and controlled.
Garden Center
August l-7, 1988
Page 8
TEISNH[SSEN
690 COULTEH DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
MEMORANDUIV1
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SUBJ:
Planning Commi ss ion
Larry Brown, Staff Enginee
August 10, 1988
This site is located on West 78th Street approximately 1300 feet
east of State Highrray 101. This 1.7 acre site is composed of anexisting wetlanal with a grove of tf,ees located on the westerlyportion of the site.
Sanitary Sewer
The intended use has a high potential to generate damaging wasteflow if not treated properly. existing 18-inch d.iameter sewermain to protect tne -ity's d.ownstre.^ iift station from sand orother particulate matter.
The plans propose the connection of the 4-inch diameter sanitarysewer service to the City's existing trunk main. Due to thelarge capacity of the trunk sanitary sewer main versus the minute
volume of storage capacity for the 4-inch diameter service, it is
recommended that a "check valve" be installed on the service toprevent any back-f1ow conditions into the building. With thepotentially large volumes of flow from the trunk sanitary sewerIine, a back-flow condition would be devastating to the building.Precise details involving the connection of the sanitary sewershould be submitted to the City Engineer for approval prior tofinal approval.
CITY OF
Conditional Use Permit anal wetland Alteration Permit for
Kronick I s Retail Garden Center
Planning File No. 88-13 CUP and 88-8 wAP, Jay Kronick andthe City of Chanhassen
Municipal sanitary sewer is available to the site by an existing18-inch diameter sewer main rrhich has been extended from thesouth side of West 78th Street to the north side of the railroadtracks located immediately north of the subject parcel. Theplans propose a 4-inch diameter service from the proposeil struc-ture to the trunk main.
Planning Commission
August 10, 1988
Page 2
Water Service
Municipal water service is
10-inch diameter wat ermainIine referenced above.
available to the site by an existing
which paralfels the sanitary sewer
The proposed water service connection shall be "wet tapped,' in
accordance with the latest published version for the StandardSpecifications for Utility Installation from the American Water
lvorks Association (AWWA). Specific details which address theservice connection to the 10-inch diameter watermain should be
submitted to the City Engineer for approval prior to final appro-
va1.
Access
Access for the subject site has been provided for by a 24-fooL
wide driveway onto llest 78th Street. This plan is acceptable.
The plans also propose a curb cut on the north side of theparking 1ot and an 8-foot wide gravel access road from the northside of the parking Iot to the ponding sites. This access isintended for the City's use to maintain the ponding sites. A 25to 37-foot (varies) utility easement is shown on the plans forthe existing utilities and to serve as access to the pond. This
proposed easement does not cover alI the existing utilities. Theapplicant has been notified that the City is requesting a 4O-foot
wide utility easement to cover the existing and proposed utili-ties. In addition, the City is requesting an access easement for
the driveway / parking area such that access can be gained to main-
tain the ponds as necessary.
The 8-foot -vride gravel access road will be installed as part of
the Cityrs pond project.
Grading and Drainage
The northerly portion of the site exists as a wetfand. This
application has been filed as a joint effort between Jay Kronick
and the City of Chanhassen such that the requirements of the
City's storm water management plan dated September of I987, pre-
pared by Barr Engineering, can be accomplished (refer to attach-
ment 1). The storm hrater management plan calls for the
construction of a retenLion pond as proposed by the applicantr s
grading plan.
The proposed plan cal1s for the construction of a sedimentation/
retention pond on the northerl-y third of the site. This storm
water retention pond receives runoff from a r.ratershed which
measures 55 acres. ?he City's goal is to maxirnize the amount of
retention within the ponding area such that the needs for the
Plann ing
August 1
Page 3
Commission
0, 1988
entire 65-acre watershed are met. Staff has requested that
l{illiam Engelhardt and Associates review the proposed ponding
site and storm sewer system to ensure that the system has the
potenti,al to serve the entire 65-acre watershed. The watershed
District!s Engineer, RoberL Obermeyer, has also been involved
with the preliminary design for the ponding sites.
This pond will discharge to the drainage swales immediately south
of the proposed parking area. The runoff will then flow along
the northerly side of ilighway 5 and eventually cross underneath
Highway 5. The Minnesota Department of Transportation will be
reviewing the storm water runoff such that the flows can be
accommodated with the anticipated Highway 5 improvements.
Erosion Control
The plan does not address erosion control . A revised plan which
addresses erosion control shoulal be submitted to the City
Engineer for approval as part of the final review process.
Recommend.ed Condi t ions
The applicant shal1 enter ioto a development contract withthe City and provide the City with the necessary financialsureties to guarantee the installation of these public
improvement s.
The sanitary sewer service shal1 have a sand trap prior todischarging into the public sanitary se$rer system.
2
3
4
Details for the installation and connection of the
sewer and water services shall be submitted to theEngineer for approval prior to final approval .
A check val-ve shall be installed on the sanitaryvice prior to discharge into the public sanitary
system.
The proposed utility easements shatl be revised40-foot wide utility easement which shall coverexisting and proposed utilities.
sanitary
City
sewer ser-
sewe r
5
5
to include a
all of the
A revised grading, drainage and erosion control plan shall besubmitted to the City Engineer for approval as part of thefinal review process.
The City has already received approval from the Army Corps of
Engineers Office for the proposed ponding site ( refer to attach-
ment 2). This application will also require approval from the
Watershed District.
1
Plannin
Augu s t
Page 4
Commi ss ion, r988
g
10
7 The proposed water service connection sha1l be ',wet tapped,'in accordance isith the latest published version for the
Standaral Specifications for UtiliLy Installation from the
American Water Works Association (AWWA).
8. Details for the service connection to the t0-inch diameter
watermain should be submitted to the City Engineer for appro-val prior to final approval.
Att achmen t s
1 Storm Water Irlanagement Plan excerpt.
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DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
ST. PAUL OETBICT- CONPS OF ENGINEEFS
II21 U,S, POST OFFICE & CUSTOM HOUSE
SI. PAUL. MINNESOTA 55T01.1'79
Augus u 3, 1988
Construction- Operations
Regulatory Functions ( 88 - 2290N- 74)
Ms. Barbara Dacy, Planner
City of Chanhassen
P. O. Box 147
Chanhassen, MN 553L7
Re Filling for Jay Kronick retail nursery and City of Chanhassen stormwater Pond;
unnamed wetland;
Sec(s). 7, T. 116 N., R. 22 !J.; Carver and Hennepin County, !IN.
We have reviewed the infornation provided us about your project. The
work is authorized by a nationwide Department of the Army pernit, prowided
the enclosed conditions and rnanagement practices are followed.
This determination covers only the project refereneed abowe. Should
you change the design, locaEion, or purpose of the work, conEact us to make
sure a violation would not occur- Our telephone nr:mber is (6L2) 220-0375.
It is your responsibility to insure that the work conplies rrith the
terns of this letter and the enclosures. PLEASE NoTE THAT THIS CONFIRUATION
LETTER DOES NOT ELIMINATE THE NEED FOR STATE, LOCAL, OR OTHER AUTHORIZATIONS.
This authorization expires on January l-2, L992.
questions, please call Vern Reiter at (6L2) 220-0363
If you have any
Sincerely,
trZ"
Enclosure ( s )Wopa
f,gulatory Functions Branch
truction- Operations Division
j
JI I'Y OF CI-IANI-;ASSET\
Design suggestions to optir0ize wildlife habitat benefits of the stormwater
pond are also enclosed. We recoeEend that these guidelines be followed as
much as is feasible at this site.
Copy furnished to Mr. Jay Kronick, 1509 Marshall Avenue, Rockville, MD 20851
,Be nff;
#d--
Deterxoination: Title 33 Code of Federal RegulaLions 330.5 (a) (26) AUG 0 5 l.,qBB
(
lll}{XESOIA
luthorlty for the follovht rctlvttle! la glvca at ,, code of leatcral
Bc8ulatloBs (C'I.B):
fX !ro.5(a)(26) Dtacharges of &ratteit or ft1I !3tEr1.1 lDto the satera
llltcat 1u D.ragrapbs (e)(25)(t).!d (11) of th1. !!ctlo! ctcePt tbo3e Yhlch
caule the 1o!! or aubrtaDtld aalverlc loallflca,tlotl of lO acrcs or lore of
rucb yr.ter! of tbc U!,ltcal Strtes. lDclualla ?ctlllalt. lor dltch.lgcr Yblch
ctule thc lols or tubste.atlal' lalvcFrc toal1f1catloa of oBr to tett rctca of
auch rrtcr!. lEcludlD€ vctlald!. notMc!t1o! to thc dlltrlct cEtlEe"r 1s
scqulrcd la.,ccordr,Ecc Ylt! Ercttotr ,ro.7 ot thl! .cctloa' (8cct1ou 4o4)
-llpoErfuclt!'
rrtrr!.
(1) fou-tle-: tltclt, .trc.I!!, .!d thllr l.Ier .n
1aclud:1a6 r.U acelt Ycth,Dd! ' that arG f'ocrted rbovc the lead
)
--.,//ft r-l tra-1or I tY of th" Pr o:l rct Rc o ulr .s Stat ! PerD lts ..!d./or ADE rovala
lai perroa ,.lt'oitlDt to dllcbrttc abedteit or 1111 Etar18l, 1oto f,lE rerota-
acifgB.tca .protectc6 Yrterrr .hi1l Jgb1it a3 tPPlLcrtloE to th! IlEllaota
Dcpertraeat of rttursl Bllource! (f,DllR ) belore be61E!183 Iork. lctlvr.ti.es
gl rutborlzed rottcr tht! lrt1olvl4c Prrdt rttcr the aPPllcl.t obteltls
rll rppllcaDlc tlD.trelot!, DcPlttEElt of 'rturtl -Beaourcc! (HD[R) &d/or
tfaaeiotr Pollutlo! Coatrol lgeacy (XPCI) PErElts r.!d approvala. Vork Eay
procced upoE tecelPt of all 8PP11c.!1e trDlIR r'Bd/or }{Pcl PalElts l!.it
rpproval!.
Othcr gtat! r,Ed local' rutborlratlotll lr;r be rcqulred'
IhlB atllcbarte ol &catSeal or f111 laterlal vould cause thc loas or
lubatalltlal ldv?r3e EodlfLcr.tlo! of :
. t-l Le!! tha.a oE? .,cre of ettcrtt of tbe Lllted s;'te!
tX Eetveen t uat lo rcFe! of Y8ter8 of the t'Eltcd State8
&cl I (6e" revct.c llalE - )
. (11) Othrr aoa-tfdaf vetrrt o! thc Ealtrd Strt!8
lDcludl'llt rdj r,celtt vctl'&ats . tLat atc lot D:rrt of a surtrcc trlbutat,
ryateu t- 1otcrstetc ,,atcr! or 'Yl'8ablc vatcr! o! tbe g'ltcd Etatcs (1'c"
kol.teal eaterr ) .
R!rloDr.l CondltloEs
2
fh" project ,.lvolvet l, d,l.cL.!gc of dlcdgeit or till !.t.rhl ltrto tb!fotloYht rrEa( ! ) :
t_l tBogt EftaA S - t!. !cr.d rr,terr ( rJrd. rd.J rclat vcth.uatr ) ..ad thetrlbutr.rlc! (rEd .,dJ rcclt retlrlAr ) of the.c ttrllla.
I_l IEDEB.IT YILD lf,D EgEtIC BfyERS (Er. CBOIf BIVER ) - rtt Lc!,il uater!(.Ed r(r&eBt y:tle.sits ) of tLc.e rt!c!r!.
I_l rtrs/gEIIIfDS LlEcEB +rrrl tO ICBES -.U urtlrlat! r{l rcclt to tb"seh!'d ylte! l.lc! ud rGtlr.aal!. tbcls arer,! arc 1acltlltcd D, tlDXB ou thclr'Publlc grtcrr/Yctltaal! IEvcatorr. r3p!.
I_l ErAIts PRoTEqTED YTIER.S L BGEB IEIII rO ICBES - vcthrd!rdJ.cc!.t to thcrc ,,.olrted elter.. th!.E lrler r'e !.de!,titlca bt E}IR o!thelr'Publ1c frt!!!/Yctlr.Bd.! I!vE!.torr. !8DS.
//A
Realottal CondltloEs ( contftlued )
X lhJorltrr of tbe Prolect Does llot Reoui.r" Etatr Pcrtllta ud/or Approwals
Iblr latlolylale prlllt 1! lubJrct to Bcgr.oEal Coadltlolc that .llov oalyproJccts tbat youlal dr.,ltr. fll.l. or llrEdatc .! lrc8 of &ESS IEAII IO,OOO
aQulRE FEEI of yrter! ot tle ualtcd st!.tes.
i
ttr f ol lor ln; SIACIIL (DXDlf l(llll torG h tollorrd lo ordr: tor thr n.tloDrld' plrrltr to bo vrlldl
rt.G .rt' dhch.l3. of drodjrd or llll ..t.rl.l rl[1 not occur ln th' ]losl'lt, ot r gubtlc rrtcr ruPPl't.
lht.I. t
2.rt.trnydlrchrrjroldrrdSrdotltllretrrlelrlllnotoccurla.a.r,otconc.ntr.tGdrhclltlrhProductlon
unlrrr thr dpchrrjr lr rtlrrctly rrlrtrr! t" . tfr.iiiiti brwrrtlnj 'ctl'lt, 'uthoslt'd by perrjrrph (r)(ll ot thlr
r.ctlont
t.tt.tth.rctlrltyrlllnottroprtdlrr.thr..t.n.(totrn&n3rrottrpoclrr..ld.ntltl.dunrlrrthrlndrn3crrd
sP"cr; r"i- o.- i.rt.or ol .cr..r.fy iori ry tte ctltlcd h.blt.t ol ruch rprcl.r
t. Thrt th. .etlrlG, rhdl noc rljnttlclntly dltsupt- th' IC..'nt of thot' rprclor of 'qu'tlc tlfr lndl3rnour
to th. r.t.tbooy {untrrr itrr
- g"lttty Pu-rPor' of itr fffi fu to l'Poud r't'r)l
,. Thrt .rt dlrchrr3r of drodjrd ot tllt latarl't rhell conrlrt of rultrbk rrtotful lrro lror torlc Pollb-
t.nt! ln totlc alounttl
6. llrrt rny ttrucGua. ot flll rutborlt.d .hrll bl proporlT rrlntilnra
t. rt.t th. .cthtt, rlll not ociur ln . GaDon'nt ot -th' tLtlo:trl llld lnd Sconlc llrrr 8'rtcrt nor ln I
tlvcr of tlcrrlly dcrr3nr?r;'# #":.;;.-..-';;..;f,;i;;.1-ti. po.rtulo lncrurlon rn the rvrt,. rhllr thr rlrrr lr
ln rn ofltcld .tud, rt'tull
S.rt.tth..Gtlvlt,rhdlnotG.u!..1!rnrccoptrblrlntlrtrtrncorlthrrrl3rtlot
9. Ilrrt. ll th. .ctttlt rry rrtrrrrly rthct hktotlc proprttlor rhlch th' irtlonrt ?erl 8rnlcr hrr llrtrr!
on or dotrtrlnrd rllglbli r-oi iiitl.r3 on tre r.t-ti-nrt-;ii; j. ot $lr.tortc Dtlcrr. th. p.rrrtt.. r'l notrrT thr
Dlrtslcr !n.ln,r. II th. g.rrttt.. ..ncornt...;;i;;t[ ,ttp'r-qr t-h't hr' rot born llrtrd or drtrrrlnrd llrlblo
tor rlrtrn3 on tr,. rrtron-.f i"ir;;... rot ,lr.t -.if u -.rri.'r. tit lrrttnl or th. *.r1...t rr3lrter. hc/rho rlll
notlf, th. Dt.lrlct ln!ln..r'
lo ?b.t th. con.tructloo o3 op.r.tloi ol th. .ctlrlS rlll -not l.p.lr rlrorred Gtlbel tl;htr. lncturtln!. but
$ot llrlt..t to. ,..".r.-crrirr rrrttr .nd tf..t7 tlrhlnj rnd huntlnl lltht.t
l|. tlrrt ln c.rt.ln tt.t... an lndl'lldull tt't' r't'r quel lty cortlflcrtloo rutt h obtrlned or rrlvrdt
12.Th.tlncortrfn.t.t...rnlndlrlduel.t.t.Go..t.l'on.I.n.3.r.ntGon,l.tnrc,GonGUrr.nG.ru.tb.
obtrlncd or rrlvcd3
lr. tt.t th. .ctlrlr, rul corplT rlth 3.tlon.l condttlonr rhlch rry lrrrr bron rddrd Dy thr ltlvlrlon lnlln"tt
ll.lh.tth!I.n.8GrGntPr.ctlc.'rhrllbrtollcrrttoth...rl.ur.tt.otPt.ctlc.bl..(Scrrrvrrrrrldll
ttltllllllll ttttttl
I
Thc loltorln3 HA
^cillE||r
ln^crlcls .h.ll b. lollorcd. to th. trrhur crtant pr.etlc.bl..- ln ordcr to rlnhlre
thc advcrrc .Ifact, of tmrc dtrchrr3cr on tha qu.tlc crrrironrcnL ?rllurc to Go'Pl, rlth thcrc practlcrt "t be
ciur. fol th. Dtrtrlct zn3rnccr io i."o...na. oi thr Dlvtrlon ln3lnoor to tat.. dherrtlonlry tuthorlt, to tetul't'
ita rcttvlty on rn lndlrliurf or rr3lonrl brrlr Pur.u.nt to Scctlon !!O.8 oI thl' g'rt
t. Dltchrri.' oI drcdgert or tllt rrtrrlrt lnto r.t.ta of th. Unlt.d tt.trt .htll bo anoldcrl or rlnlrbrd
throulh thG u.. of oth.t Pr.ctlcrl .lt.rn.tlrat
,.Dlrchrr3crlnrprrnln3rrrrrdurlnjrprrnln3...ton.rhrltblrroldcrl
3. Dl'ehrr3cr rhtll not r.rttlet ot hpedr th. aorrr.nt of rqurtlc rprclrr firdl8rnour to thc 'rt't! or thc
prr.rte of norrrl ot crpoctcd hl3h tlorr ot G.uta thr rclocrtlon ol th. ritrr (unlcrr thr prherT purpolc of tha
tlll ir to hpound rrtatr).
t. tt th. dlrch.rS! cteatar rn hpoundrcnt of l.tcr, rdYcrrc l.Prctt on th' t{u'tlc ryrtcr crurcd by thc
.ce"lar.tcd p.r.tg,c of ratar tnd/ot thr rortrlctlon of ltr llc rhrll bo rlnhlrrrl
5. Dlrchrr3c ln r.tl.nd rrcrr rhltl br rroldcd'
5. HervT cqulprant rorl.ln! ln rrthnrtr rlrrll br Pl'ccd on r'tr'
T.Dlrchrt3alntobrccdln3.r...torrlsretorTlrt.rfollrhellberroldo.L
8. All tcrporrry tlllr rhrll br tclorcil ln thclr cntlrctr'
lletlonrldc pesrltt do not otrlrtr thr nccd to obt.ln other tcrtorrl. 't't' or loed 'uthorl'rtlonr rcqulrod by
lrr, do not gr.nt .n, propart, rl6htr or crclurtte ptitllcac.. lto not ruthorgo.rrT lnJ u.ry to thc PropGrtt or rlghtr
oI oth.r., nor do thr, .ulhor-1," Intrrtorrncr rlth eq, crlittnj or proporrd trdirrl proJ:cL
l{odlIlcrtlon.Surpenrlon or Rcrocotlon o[lhtlorlIld. Pcrrltr t
Tha Chlel ol En8lnceia tey rodlly. rurpcnd. or rrrolc nrtlonrldr Pct.ltt ln rceordrner Ilth thr r"lT''nt
proeadupr of 3l CFR 125.7. Such ruttoittT i,retrlc..-but l. not ltrtt;d tol rrtdln! lnrtlrldual' rrSlonrl' 'or
nctlonvlrle conditionr: rarollng .uthorlt.tlon r".-.'".i.r".r of .ctlrltl.r or r c.ilory or r'ter' b7 rrqulrlng
lndividual or tagionrl p"r!lr.t or raollng .. ..ai"ii".liol or. . ....-'t7-"it.-hr:fJ ^ittt-r ruthorlty lr not llrltcd
to concern, Ior the iqurtlc .rwlron.cnt rr lr thr dlrctctionrrT authorlt, ln rctlon 3tC8'
I I I I I
C E)r=E A! DESlGi- CONSIDIB.ATI0NS lli CE:Ail|'*C
ALTI F1 Cl..A.t !Ti-A-his roE u Ii-D:: rE
1.
,:
fbe bcst aolutloo to EsiD!a1nlDg rdcquett vcthod rceourcer 1l to
prcv?s: dltturbaDcG to cxlrtlDt urtural bellae' L'heo thlr 1r
uoavoldablc' hovcvq;, lors of qrturrl vctl'!Dd br!1D' c.lD b' rt lcrsl'
prrr1.ll, of!ret or colrPcD5!ted fol b, coD!t'rirctloD o' rrtltletL
Lrras. lar-cd oa oul r.ldee of rescDt lltctaturc oo th' 'ubJcct' vc
!csoErcDC thit the tollcn'1ng Scucrel dGsltn tsaturrD bc l4lcEcDtcc'
to tbe crtcnt posrlb1c, rrhc: coustructlBt ..u rrtlflcr} YGthDC br31D:
I. Thc vctlaod barlo cao bc rchtLvaly rg11 (0'5 rerc) txr t '' ff. !t !11 posslblc. lhould be !t J'east l'0 rcre 1n r1:e'
2. A rrrlable (lssbcr th!! !a Gvau-lldcd) rborellac rbould ba
'coBrtructcd l'! rt all Poss''b1e 31Dce 1G YlLl-1Ee!cs3e lbe
lEouDt of rhorelloe Pcr uElt r!c! aDd lacreere tbt
. Y:terfo\r1 ueaga by provlClag lgolated areas {or {ecdlng a::d
loa! j'tr8 '
3.rhcbottofcoDtou!sbouldbcugeveaagd!o111D8ghlc!v11f
' produce ! ?erlabJ'e v!!er.daPlh lad !11ov for clcrgent
- vcgciltlgn 8:onth oD shailov r!3as throuEhout tbc brslD'
t'ricr depth 1a rballog rterr should b' 'bout 12-18 lgE}tcs
ead about 3-4 fccl lE thc dcePeit lreaE' The 'horc].1Deerea sho:ld havc a geutle (lO:1 to 20:1) rlopc Eo Prorlde
for rd:qgetc Y.8eta;lva Efovth, b:r also crl b€ vrrllble ro
prowlde. i;at1 rfserrrlve'flasers- lad on3n.]ba1t-' ::1-tl;srrc adge. legeiarlo: StonlEg 1E tbeoe aballover ar'as ol
t5e basla ehouid groducl vtgeiatloe lcLaads aod rhcreby
lsclease 1:tcrrpcirlon or cdge h!b1t!t' r{ 50i opea vetcr
aad 5?i rc8elltloE cotcrrge of the rcrl:ad (lDcludlDt lbc
cr:tclt t.g.i.ali' lrouD; lh' rborelhe) v1![ Prot.ldG tbc
gt..i.rt.Pccics rl chDt'3 lBd d1vc161Et'
l. aht ve:Lad rhould hevc r Sood cLy real to PteYeEE
1erla3e. lt .iii,r'",-"t ittoo"oi tb!l toPcoll be-phccd
oE th? bortoE-oi-attt Lrla to provld: e lore rultrblc
tubsttr!. for equatlc vaSetrlloB Sroglh vhl ch v111 rrc
qulckly .rt"utiiu t dctritu: food chalo eqd lavcrtcbretc
ebu:carce' st;i;'; itslie 11nrd oDl' r'1th clry aonelly
produce l.ra ".5t"t:los, fevc: LDvcrt-cbtate! auC lovcr
ErrEbc:! or ,"..i!*r tbin tbore !(D!c Yltb botb clay ead
t op! 01)..
2
q
6
OD proJectr vhcrc crlstlDt rctl.Ddr rrc uDnvoldrbly
ftp"ctIa, .Dd Yhco tcrrlblc, ErcI froE .!'rt1D8 v'iLDd'
rhouLd bc puccd 1o thc borloE of tbc Dcvl, crclttd b6t1D'
Thls vould Plorldc thc brtlD vlth t Drturallt occurrlDS
rccd banl etd othcr Eatc!1!l o! h18b ostrBlc coDteDt'
it uy t dcri,rtSlc to coustruct cDG or tvo rlall errtbcro
lslaois v1!h1D .oEc o6'l't crsEed vethDd br31Dt to'1oclc8'c
dlecr!1t, and Pro\'1C. !o offthorc ueEtlDS arc'a lor
Y6t c rf orrl aod othcr v1lC11Ic.
8.
Aftcr coa!t!1rctlo!, t !-aycr of Drtural or doErtlc b!,
rtrc.rld be plac€d o! Ehe vcshDd tr:brlltc Yblcb rll1 e].lon a
dcrrllus fooC clalo to b.cor ettsbll,bcd fora lEPlalr'
laettabllrhlug aoC nr1:ta1ulDB l! uPkDd tt8Gt!t1Yc buf{c!
rrar arouad :hc PG:1-tc! of lbe !.Y1, cacalrd vctkDd
Dasla r/-1I pror--dc DerrlDB babltlt rDd helP lo cE3ure
optlEr: rrrt;r:orrl productlou occu$ oo thc!G rrcrt' If
aov1a5 oi Ehc wctc:!:13a r=ouDd thc tctbDd brrla Lr
u.".ri.r7, 1t .hould bc de)-ayad EeEl1 3Jter Augutt 1 lJ sE
al1 porslble to arold dlsru;Saacc to vrterforrl, up!-r.ad grrc
blrCs eud o:her YlldLlt€, durhS thc !etE1a8 !'!to!'
. .'j
. :-.-
General S?ecif ica'-'irns fo!' :onstructicn cf Idetland for tilClife
The wildltIe pond should have:
freeform (not eve;:-sided) sha:e to increase shore'l j !'re
length and prcvjde isolated areas for feeding and
res tl nE bi rds l
shal'lor erbanknEnts HJth s'lopes of 10:1 - 20:1 for at
Ieast 301 of the shore'line to encoura-oe gr*th of
erErgent yegetatlon rs refuge and food for rild'l ife;
uneven, rol'llng bcttom contour for variab]e rater dep'!hto (a) provide foraging areas for species of rildlife
feeding in sha'llor xater (0.5 - 3.0 feet) and (b)
encourage grffth of e[Ergent vegetation in areas of
sha'l lor Hater and thereby increase in..erspersion of
open ra',er ri th emrgent vegetati on;
layer of topsoil (muck frorn an existing re+-iand beingfil]ed) on bo+,tom of basin and the slopes to pr:vide a
su i tab le substrate for.aq-at'- yegeia'rion;
:a+,er 'level control (culverts, riser plpe, etc. ) to
minimjze d{st.irrbances cf rildlife using the retlano;
fringe of strrubs on up]and surrounding the basin to
minirnize disturbances of rildlife using the r€tland.
T
fl/'trr':
rtrtil\\}tr
t/tlllltt'
illl h tl(lrtr
lllttt
rflitll
il/l/rr
1,11'ltt'n"
l'
-..i...\--
->
5jI
8
I
u
rl
ll
lll
FIGURE I
WILDLIFE POND DII\GRA}Iltttllttttt
* or flaEter s lope
tttr
!
CITY OF
EHINHISSEN
I\,IEMORANDUM
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SUBJ:
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
Jo Ann Olsen, Assistant City Planner
Planning Case 88-13 CUP and 88-8 WAP (Kronick)
Jim Chaffee, Public Safety Director
August 3, 1988
/=
\
Fire Chief DaIe cregory and I have reviewed the conditional usepermit and wetland alteration permit for a garden center and
holding pond. At this time, we have no input or suggestions con-
cerning public safety.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask.
MEMORANDUM
TO:
FROM:
DATE :
SUBJ :
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
CITY OF
CHINHISSEN
Jo Ann olsen, Assistant City Planner
Steve A. Kirchman, Building Inspector
August 8, 198I
Planning Case 88-13 CUP and 88-8 WAP (Kronick)
\ur
The greenhouse shown on the plan appears to be 20r x 60r or 1200sq. ft. If the building is over i000 sq. ft., it is no longer an
M-1 occupancy but a B-2 occupancy. As a B-2 occupancy, all wal-Isless than 20 ft. from the lot Iine must be one hour walIs.
44
2&.y courci f lteering - June 13, 1988
!,rhatever .
JAY KRoNrcK, PROPERfY tocArED bloRTH oF AND ADTACENT ro WEST TBTH srREsr, 1000FEET EAST OF DAKOIIA AVSIT'E/III 5 INTERSECTION:
A. ZOTIING ORDINA}CE A},IEIIDME\II TO A}IBID SMTION 20-71-4 TO PERMIT RETAIL GARDEN
CENTERS AS A CONDITIOIRL USE IN THE BH, BUSINESS HIGH9BY DISTRICT.
B TAIID USE PTAN AMEbIDI,IE.II TO A},ISID TIIE YEAR 2OAg TANO USE PIAN TO RMESIGIiRTE1.7 ACRES OE INDUSTRIAL TO COIO,TERCIAL.
c. REZONE 1.7 AcREs FRol'r roP, rllDUsrRrAL oET'rcE PARK DrsrRrer ro BH, BUsrNEss
HIGHIqY DISTRICT.
Mayor Handlton: Jayt s probably still in l{ashington right?
Barbara Dacry: Ib couldnr t make it to the meeting but tE still rould like the
Counci 1 to go ahead ard act on it.
lrayor Hanilton: I think it,s a good idea for that area. Eobably fits pretty
good but I just didnrt ri,ant to rezore tle v*role thirg.
Barbara Dacy: l'la)&e i{e shourd take each issue at a time because t}re conmissionraised those traffic ard lard use concerns with itqns B ard C. They really had
no problem with tie garden center use in the district as a l*role.
Councilman Horn moved, @urci lman Geving secorded to alprove Zoning Ordinance
Amen&nent Request *88-7 to anrerd Section 20-7L4, Corditional Uses in the BHDistrict as follor.s:
(5) Cnrden Centers.
A1I voted in favor ard the motion carried.
B. t At\D USE PIAN AMEND,IENT TO N,lEllD THE YEAR 2g6q LprD USE PIAN T,O REDESIGATE
1.7 ACRES OF INDUSTRIAL 1O COI'}IMCIAL.
Barbara Dacy: Yes. the total parcel size is 3.7 acres as nor., zond and on t}leIard Use PLan, tlle west half of that is zoned BH ard the east half is IOp. The
applicant $rantd the entire piece zoned as B.lsiness Highway nunber one to lookat sqne siEe plan designs for his proposed garden center ard nunber two, hestill Hants to reserve ttre possibility of creating another ccnmerciaL lot in
that total 3.7 acre site. I should note that the northerly half of that site,
the City is looking at retaining an eassnent for a retention pord to be
consistent with tlre Barr EXg ineering storm vrater report so the affected use of
the protErty is probably about 2 L/2 to 3 acl..es.
Counci lman Horn: Why do r€ need l,tet @uncil approval on that?
t
L
66
)-- c
t
Councilman Geving: Couldn't rre get t$ro Iots out of that?
203
r Barbara Elacy: Because the [ard Use plan is approved by the lEtropolitancourcil. rt's a minor amerrlnent. rtrey're noC goirg ti rnve . prlbt-n with it.
courrci lman Johnson: rs this parcer o$rDed by the sarne person ard his parcel issprit half roP ard hal.f, this is rrhat, arout ttre secord third time: -tt= .oto*ryig: came up.this year. !b matter wtnt seerns to go to tfris properiy tfreyq,ant it ei ther irdustrial or ccnmercial.
Barbara Dacy: Ihe auto service proposal eEnted to keep basicatly bothirdustrial ard ccnmercial zonirg designations on it but just iiii iiop it uotafter lre strowed tlem our storm v,rater manags[ent report trr"t saia trrat rre shouldcreate a pord in ttE back of the property, that kiued that idea as r.rerr as tlleOourril did not anerd ttp ordinance io atlow mini_r.rarehouse in IOp.
Counci lman. BoyE: l,taybe you can o<plain the difference between (b) ard (c) ardhow. they fit together. t urderstand the land use plan arrl r.,t,"t're,re rearrysayirg is Htet re taking sore of that lard that is atreaalz zoned cronmerci.f u.nr.e're proposing to zone 1.7 additional acres of cqrmercial.
Barbara Dacy: The west half is zoned business hrgh,'iay ard itrs designated onour tarxl use pran as cpnmercial. rhe east harf i; de-signated u. inaGtiiur una
?9ned IoP so what they want to do is take tte irdustriai, the rarE use pran, tte
.roP-""q the zoning pran ard change tl't ar1 to BH and cormercial. Just the €sthaLf of the site.
City Courcil !4eeting - June 13, 1988
@unci Iman Boyt.: Ard both (b)
Barbara Daqa:
consistent .
Thatrs correct.
ard (c) then address that one issue?
So that ve have our tard Use plan ard Zoning Map
I
{
IL
councilman Boyt: okay. !.row rerre at the heart of the issue to me. rf r might,r think Brian Batzri on the pranning conmission made a good point in that itmakes sense to have this be a]r o1e zoning district but r.re tirr. "oo. leveragewhen it cqnes to charg irg zonLng in terms of the kird of devo.ogneni ti,"t,,.allow in. that lre rose orEe re grant this. rtrs sort of playiig bacl<wards withthe -$r9fe arrangsnent but it.s reality. I'm a littLe .o*u.n-.A, -.rren
ti,ougnstaff has indicated to us that _their itudy shorrs there's no traitic imfict uyLtEt ure do. That's a very difficult corn6r to manip:.rate ard this uni'iown r.7acres out here of additional rot, $re don,t know if it,s going to be a iast foodrestaurant. A gas station. There's any nrlnber of possi6ifiiies. r;m wary otallowing the r.ihore situation to be deali with l,hen ne donrt know about that r.7.r-think a garden store fits there nicely arri r,d like to "". iii. poi-it'tn"...rf
.
r.te can arrange it so he can do that arri stilr retain maximun.int."i o.r",this unused Lard, I,d like to see us work that out-
counci rman Horn: tbw ',,,urd r.E do that? with a c.onditional use urder that zone?
Councilman. Bol.E: Once v,E grant ttre zonirg to the whole piece, itrs myurderstarxiing that v,er re governed by our own ordrnances.
Counci lman Horn: Irm sayirg as an alternative ltouLd !€ want to go witl1 acorditional use for that piece instead of a total rezoning?
67
Barbara hcy: I think qtat g. Batz1i -was suggesting is, you,ve no$, approvedthe ordinancre amen&nent to.arlow a graden ."n[6i .= a corditional use in thefirst.prace so his suggestion was n6ra orc o"
-tr,. r.na use plan anendnent arrlRezonirs untir he fires t,is corditional o* p".*it "rerGti;;. -ffi**'[o *uraact on ttle vfiole ball of elax together.
courci lman Horn: crant a corditional use permit rather than rezone it?
Barbara Dacy: you r,rould have to really take those actions simultaneously.
ccuncilman Bolt: Hoe, do 1€ -dear wittr this dangl ing 10t that he donrt knorclftatrs going to be developed on that one?
Barbara Dacy:. rtE appricant is requestirg that you have the whole thinq rezonedto B:siness Hishway comerciar. rri order-to a;i;; ;;'trlJl.r"iilnf'llL .r,"councir bas to feel satisfied that arr or tre-u=es i, ti=-a""ir;;"Hiiii"vDistrict, you feel is appropriate for ttrat Estern half of the property. If yourezone it to-pH, you can expect ue courd have an apprication ioi-aiv-#nnitteause in that district or pot-ntia1 application ior a conAitional use.
counci lman Horn: rsnrt this the sefie thing r,.e ran into wittt }4cDonards? I€ vrereconcerned about a stlip food area but r,e r6zoned a larger area trran rr,rt tt.yhad requested so in effect rne have a whole aoaar"r don, there that was rezoned?
9Qr€*ty Courcil l,teeting - June 13, 19gg
Barbara Dacy: fhankfully I rrasn r t here for that aplication.
Councilman Geving: Ies, r€ split it into just that one lot.
l,Iaycr lhnilton: lib just o1fil that one Iot.
Courci lman Horn:
dangl ing portion?
@uldnrt he do scrnething similar here? Get rid of the
t-
L
t
ol,
Barbara Dacy: It's already, the !€stern half is already zoned as BH and whatyour re saying is you would prefer not to act on the rezo-ning for the easternhalf until you. . .
@unci lman Horn: Irnti I $Ie know r,rhat that use is .
Barbara Dacy: rn effect what the councfl is doirg roourd be tabling action onthe t-and Use pLan and the Rezoning.
@uncilnan Geving: lb stiu could go ahead with his garden center. tb,s gotaPprovel for doirg that Barbara. ihere's already a z6nirg ordinarre anendnentto permit ttle garden center.
Barbara Dacy: yes, he can.still go ahead. tb is in the process of preparingthat site plan- r think his preflrencre was Eo tly ard qei ttre wtrole- siL zonedso he could possibry rnt Bu:.to be bound by that zoning district line runningrlght through tt= middre of his property ani issues aboit setbacks ard parkin{area and so on.
l''ayor Hamilton: r'd rather see him come in erith a pran tien so v,e have scrneidea of vrhat he's doing. tE don't tnve any ij* ,n"t he,s doing.
City Courcil l,reeting - June 13, 1988
Courrci lman Geving:sit doh,n ard ta1k.
I€ talked to Bob one evening and he r,ould very much like to
@urcilman Johnson: Dare_ ard_r nreet monthry with two rnsnbers of the chaska city@urciI because lget re on the Southwest l,Gtri transit Board.
Councilnan Hrcrn: Iftro are tlrey?
Courcilalan JohrEon: Tte rnayor ard...
Courcilman Ceving: Gayle Kincaid.
ltayor tlmilttrt: Sheis not on the Courcil.
courcilnan ceving: ert Bob eras the one that nrentioned that he h.uld rike to sitdorm on a IErsorEl basis. r think the l,tayor should be in""r".a-it-"il' or ti=courcilmqnbers.
courci Lnan Johnson: rhe ttayorrs previor:s arri r donrt know if crrrent tusiness
f,_ counci lman Geving: th r.,ants the utmost frexibitity but at t]le sanre time he
| !r.ants. to be- able to berd that prolErty to his liking ard rnaybe r.re won,t 1ikeI $,trat he I s planning to do.
ltayor tlamilton: Since re havenit even seen a plan Ird rnove tttat ve table itqns15(b) ard (c) until a plan crfiies in to us.
ANNHBTION/DEANNDGTION REQUEST, MERLE VOLK.
Don Ash$,orth: staff is recormerrling ttlat tre counciLnsnbers frqn ttre chan city
P"*i} be given an opportunity to rneet with tr,vo mernbers of the chaska cityoourcil to discuss ttris issue. _I lave a feer ing that they ta"e pretty muctrdetesnined what they'd rike to do ard r see thii trpe of i meetiiq us'ueirg "r,olportunity for each of the
-
t{o sides to say r.rtrere- they are ard ii trrere ii anyhope for salvation, it rrculd cqne out of ttrat tylge of i*ring. ottrerwise, r thinktheir coarse of action is pretty r.lr ser in taiiing vrith ;heir ;e.ini"[ruto..
Counci lman Horn: Do you know who their representntives are?
Don Ashr*orth : tib, I do not.
cor:rcilman ceving : r tiink. it'i s the r,tayor . r tarked to him brief ly, Bob onenight ard te was very much in favor. wisn,t it your impresii.; t;';.y?
Courrcilman Johnson: yes.
L
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29
l'rayor Hamilton moved, counci lman Horn secorded to table the land use pran
Anen&nent to amerd the year 2agg Lard use pran to redesignate r.7 ecrei as acorditionar use in the BH, Busine_ss Highrday District ard to table rezoning ofl.7.acres frcrn rop, rrdustrial office talk to BH, Business Higt*y oiitrictuntil a site pran is suhnitted. Ar1 voted in favor ard the rnotion carried.
Planning Commission
June I, 1988 - page
Meeting
9
PLAN AMENDI{ENT TO AMEND THE YEAR 2Oq6 TO REDESIGNATE 1.7
INDUSTRIAL TO COMMERC IAL.
(
f
PUBLIC HEARING:
JAY KRONICK, PROPERTY LOCATED NORTH OF AND ADJACENT TO TO WEST 78THSTREET, IgOO FEET EAST OF DAKOTA AVENUE/TH 5 INTERSECTION:
A. ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTION 26-714 TO PERMIT RETAIL
GARDEN CENTERS AS A CONDITIONAL USE IN THE BH, BUSINESS HIGHWAY
DI STRICT.
tl LAND USE
ACRES OF
REZONE 1.7 ACRES
BUSINESS HIGHWAY
FROM IOP, INDUSTRIAL OFFICE PARK DISTRICT TO BH,
DI STRICT.
Barbara Dacy presented the staff report.
Chairman Conrad opened up the public hearing.
Dacy: Unfortunately the applicant,s in Maryland.
Conrad: Did we send out notice for the public hearing?
Dacy: Everybody within 500 feeL.
Conrad: And to the owners of the Chanhassen Office building have notcalled you nor Redman Products?
Dacy: No.
Batzli moved, Wildermuth secondedin favor and the motion carried.
Eo
The
take them one at a time inat your end and talk about
BH district.
close the public hear ing.public hear i.ng was closed.
A11 voted
Conrad : I guess we' IIwerll start Dave, downconditional use in the
terms of our comments.garden cenEers that is a
Headla: Really the only comment
center, the whole bit. Irve got
this, for a garden center, I don
centers. unless we. . .
f like the idea of a gardenthe unknor,rn. If we say yes to
v/e can control other garden
I have isa fear of
I t see how
Conrad: It is a conditiooal use. The point in this district is to makeit a conditional use which means rre see it. It gives it the opportunity
to occur. It doesn't give it the total right. It does have to come inhere and we can apply whatever standards we want to it. Do we have
standards in here that would help us review LaEer? A center would meetcertain conditions?
( Dacy: For garden cenEers specifically, no we don't.
conrad: So typically I like to see conditions. If ituse, what are we looking for to guj.de us in granting it
conditionala conditional
is a
as
*b
Planning Commi ssion
June I, 1988 - page
Meeting
Lg
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(
Conrad: So I think Dave, erhat ere're saying, that,s the district and werresaying it now can, it's not permitted, it'i now possibre to have gardencenters but itrs not automatic. They have to coie in and tark to us. wedon't have any standards to evaluate whether it's good or bad but it's aquestion right now. The-concept in my mind about iighway businessdistrict was quick in and quick out, iow intensitv. -tt"'.oi""pt ,"" ,r.had linited traffic. we hrd timited road use in tnose areis ana we $rantedIg h91p the highway traffic through gas stations or restaurants get in butthe idea lras not that that patter; wis to go through the rest of thechanhassen- rt vras to help cars going on iH 5 fin6 services that theyneeded. Maybe chanhassen residents could out there too but it r"" r"lrlykey that we didn't have real great traffic handling ro.a=-.t that time solve werent t looking for rear intensive uses. we weie realry saying this isa district that services cars that are going out onto TH i-for whateverthe basic needs are. whether a retail.- weive got retair down thereobviousry so thaErs not a probrem. rt'|s just wiether you berieve. rn myllld,.to telr you where r'!m at right now, it's whether we berieve thatthis is a,traffic generator, that it's going to go. fs it iiXe ttreGardeneer? rs it rike a Frankrs? rs ii going t6 generate traffic that wecanrt handre in that area and in my mind,-thai's tfre question thaE isstill open.
Dacy: In comparison to $rhat is.already permitEed, fast food restaurants,financial institutions, automotirra ""aii"" centers, retair shops, riquorstores, motels and hoters'_r thi.nk garden center, even a Franki"'llua6aay,because it's so speciarized, r'm poiitive that the trip generation ..loii.for a garden center are rower thai those types of uses- tiat are arreadypermi tted .
BatzIi: Except on Saturday morning.
Wildermuth: - - Thatrs part of the advantagepressure will be on rreekends rather thaigood intersection there.
of having
during the
a garden center.week. That 's not The
a
Conrad: These are a1l independent actions that r"re're taking. We can makeit a conditional use. This particular application may ;;a ;" appropriatebut if we feel that it's appiopriate in lhat area, thin ," ""n make it aconditionar use for busine!-s h-ighway and.thatrs the onty district $/ervegot. That'|s the only business highway disErict going iiong-tH 5 thatwe've got in Chanhassen.
HeadIa: I feel comfortableinputs.right now but Ird like to hear $rhat the other
stay bus i nes sbut I guess IcenEer. 1.7
office.
can I t comeacres is
wildernuth: I $rould Iike Eo see Ehat parcelrather see another office building tnei"...l.rith a good reason why...a nursery or garden
r rd
up
g":? Staff hasnrt prepared thaE. Maybe what r4re can have input on butit's only, how many BH districts do we have, t$ro?
Dacy: The BH district is rocated primarity along TH 5. rt stretches from -the Hennepin County border then r^,est to the end of West 79th Street.
(
Planning Commission
June 1, 1988 - page
Meeti ng
I1
doesnrt own the land at this point does he? The
(certainly adequate size. I don't know how big Frankrs is...
Batzri: r guess two questions came to my mind. why are we rezoning anddoing this thing, wouldnr t that normally be part of the process of aconditionar use permit? when we see whit thi guy has pui together ratherthan rezoning it to suit a conditionar use periit apprication that we maynot even approve?
Dacy: Trdo reasons. Number one, the appricant has a purchase agreement onthe property and wanted to pursue this application to see if th6 Citywourd even consider rezoning the entire thing to business highway. Numbertwo, _yes you do have_a specific request that you can pretty well bank on aconditionar use permit apprication for a gardEn centei at this rocationbut tonight you're basically being asked, are you comfortable withrezoning this particular parcel , in total, to Lusiness highway? Are youcomfortable with all of the uses in that district to remoie tLe splitzoning on the property to entirely business highway? If you just wantedto act on the Zoning Ordinance Amendment and vrould prefer to postpone theother two applications, that's certainly within your power.
BatzLi: I guess from my own point of view, I don't know that a gardencenter is any more intense than these permitted uses. In fact, if it,sgoing to be a conditional use, I think r,re are going to take a look at itto make sure iErs appropriate. As far as rezoningr I don,t know that I'mcomfortable rezoning this not knowing why Iim rezoning it.
Dacy: Again, the applicant doesn,t rvant to have the parcel split by bothzoning districts. He vrants one consistent zonj.ng for the ent j.re parcel.Thatrs the reason for the rezoning.
-(
Batzli: But he
applicant?
Dacy: No, he has
Ellson: He'1I buy
Dacy: Right.
Batzli: I guess Ird prefer
I understand but thatrs just
a purchase agreement.
it contingent on all this happening?
see i ng
what I
ei ther
wou 1d
the lando$rner andprefer.the appl icant.
Dacy: The landowner did consent to the application and Jay hadthe decision of which meeting he had to come up to. Either the
Council, meeting or the Planning Commission for flight schedulesso he opted for the City Counc j.l.
to make
Ci ty
and so on
EIIson: I donrt see any problem i^rith a garden center. I think we'd be introuble if we tried to say no in the business highway. Especially r.rhen
19u're saying outdoor display of merchandise, screened outdoor storage...Whether I vrant it or not isn,t really erhat I get to chose. It doesnitIook like it would fit in here aod according to some of these ot.herthings, I donrt see ho!., we can no to a garden center. Irm kind of on theside of Brian. wetre zoning this just because some individuar srants it
L
Planning Commission
June I, 1988 - Page
Meeting
l2
t zoned that way and I guess I donrt see a whole good reasoning on that. Inthe staffrs report you're basically saying... \^ri1l not have a significant
impact on the availability of industrial. I guess I can go along if you
feel that but I just don't feel strongly that there are some really good
reasons. Some guy would like alL of these things, so okay then we'll
rezone it just for one individual.
Emmings: Do you only want us to comment
we started with one
now
but
on the . . .
that...Conrad: AII three.
Emmings: I don't have any problem
]-0]-. Does any configuration of TH
aLL?
with rezoning... Irm curious about TH
101 potentially involve this land at
Dacy: Itrs too far to the east.
Batzli: They're not planning on putting a stop
though are they? At that service road there for
r.rhere I'm talking about? When they realign, therealignment, r^ras there a stop sign there or didroad back?
sign at that interchange
TH loL? Do you know
Last time I saw the
they move that serv ice
{
Dacy: TH
West 78th
sign?
101 wi 1I be
street wi Il
realigned. There
"T" into that and
will be a nedian
continue on. So
in Dakota and
where's the stop
Batzli: WilI there be one where the access is currently?
Dacy: Here?
Batzli: Yes.
Dacy: Yes.
Erhart:
at TH 5.
Did that
Dacy: No.
Erhart: The las tsti ll alive?
What has happened? Werre now J,ooking at TH I01 being realigned
The last time we talked about it lre were...of the industrial .go through?
I heard it was kind of a dead issue. Apparently it's
Dacy: Yes, the City j.s st i11 gojng to try and pursue it because itrs avital part of the transportation system. So one means of doing that wasthe tax increment district but there are other financial means available.
Erhart: So l-992 E.hat witl include...
Dacy: Werre going to try as hard as
Erhart: On the other place where wedistrict?
we can to achieve that date.
allow garden centers now is in the BG
(
Planning Commission
June 1, 1988 - page
Meeting
I3
correct.
that I s essentially the downtown?
Dacy: That's
Erhart: Then
Dacy: Thatrs west
James property.of the downtown area. On the Burdick property and the
Erhart: What dogeneral businesswith TH 5?
you see as the differencedistrict and the business
between the intent of thehighway? Is it somethi.ng to do
Dacy: Yes. The general business district permits much greaterintense variety of uses. The Chairmanrs description eariier ofof the business highway district r.ras accuEate. The listed useszone are specifically oriented to the traffic flow.
and more
the i n tentin the
Erhart: Even when you go downtown you almost have togo across the street. where the bakery was.
get into your car to
Dacy: Right. There are some similarities and there are some differences.
Some of these in the BG district would need a much larger land area
whereas a business highway district primarily consists of smaller , 2 to 3to 4 acre parcels so there are some differences betr.{een the thro.
I Erhart: On thateast, your route
east?
access road,
back to TH 5
say you come out of this nursery andis what? Can you get back onto TH 5
you go
going
Dacy: At the
full movement
PresenE time, no. When TH 5 is four lane,
intersection at Dell Road and TH 5.
there wi 1I be a
coming from the direction as Dell Road, they come do$rnErhart: So someone
78th street and. . -
Dacy: Right.
Erhart: Most
TH 101 exit. . .
likely the traffic Aoing into that area would take the
Dacy: That's another point as far as
Itrs the type of use as opposed to a
marketing standpoint, a garden center
d j.rect access as where this property
restaurant because of it's location.
the garden cenEer is concerned.fast food restaurant because from ayou real}y don't need that immediatecould be a prime site for a fast food
Erhart: Fast food restaurants
area?
are allowed? Thatrs a permitted use in the
Dacy: Right.
Erhart: The problem is, itrs more of a problem up there with streetIayout. Given, I guess I'd agree with other commissioners, given theother uses that are already allowed as a conditional use in this area, it
L
Planning Commission
June I, 1988 - page
Meeting
L4
(wourd almost be senseless to...garden centers in this area... r'd be infavor of -adding that as a condiiional use. As far as the zoning isconcerned, I guess my history of being on- the planning Commissi6n is youcan try to accomodate peopre who o$rn ihe land if it d6esnrt otherwise-cause an intrusion on grho abuts, I guess I,m in favor of it...
conrad: r donrt have a problem with the zoning ordinance amendment tomake it a conditionar. use-_ philosophicarly though, r rike the gardencenter- Therefore, the other. two things r don,t-mind. rn this pariicutarcase r rearry $rould rike the industrial use. r rdourd prefer to see a planto persuade me that this garden center wirl add to the area and until rsee that pran, even though it's more concrete than, rrd Like to seesomething concrete before r rezone the property. r have to be persuaded.rim not at this point in time. r'm conierned with traffic. r donrt havea problem with graden centers in the BH districts.
Headla: Are you...or against this? Therers a rot of council memberstalki.ng about beachlots. ...where a contractor.
Conrad: It may actual-ly work in that area but I justright nov, to rezone it just because sornebody'" u"[i.rgthink we.can 9er him the philosopic t""iing'thaa-t;;;zoning district.
donrt knoe, enoughto rezone it. Iit could work in the
(Headla: Letrs talk a littlepossibilities can it be? Ifindustrial?
that. Because it doesnrt, ho$, manyit, do you prefer to see it more
bir
we
about
re zone
conrad: yes, r think so- r see an office buirding on one side and r seeRedman on the other- That's kind of the way r thought that area wourddevelop. Therers some good rationare for putting a garden center in heremind you because the in[.ensity wourJ ue-on a saturday-sunday and thereforesomebody.courd persuade.me thit just because of trafiic patterns andthings like thaE, that iE could 6e " Uenefit in terms of overaLlChanhassen. I donrt know_ that right now. I donrt know what they,repranning. r don't knoh, what they;re tninrinq auout trow lo-ieverop ttratl3F' so phirosophicalry r woulin't do it uut ir-s"*euoiv gu"" me, inthis one case, if somebody gave me a concrete example of $rhat theyr rethinking of, I might be tempted to change the zoniig for tf,"m.
Headla: what if somebody came in and s/anted to use that for fast food?
Conrad: I r^rouldnrt do that.that would be bad all the time.
I think thatis just a traffic generator
Emmings:
EIlson:
HeadIa :
beca use
Conrad:
But they could do Ehat.
It's legal.
They can have tha tit could be a whole
and
lot
You're right.
maybe we
worse.
should go for the garden centert
r
L
Meeting
15
The best of a1I viorlds would be an office or distribution
Ellson: Thatrs not saying it never can be by having
Planning Commi ss ion
June 1, 1988 - page
Wildermuth:
center . . .
Conrad: I think we did put
Whatrs the differnce between
Headla: How is that gardenthey had any problems there
Dacy: I donrt know.
Headla: If you donrt know,
Dacy: I wouldn I t knoer.
Tim Erhart asked a question
the
an
auto serv i ceauto ser v ice
a garden center.
in there didn r t we?
and a garden center?
in Eden prairie? Have
center
cen te r
center workingdo you kno$r?
out over
it probably isntt a problem.
that couldn't be heard on the tape.
Dacy: The best that I can say that, typicallyIines are drawn...boundaries. Thj.s pai-ef waigoes right through the middle of this parcel.a split as two zoning districts.
when the zoning district
overlooked unfortunately it
The parcel is operating as
z Erhart: So it makes sense to zone the whole thing?
Dacy: One way or the other.
Erhart: Most of this 1and...
Dacy: with the office use you are going to get more peak hour traffic,morning and afternoon and that's goj.ng to exasperate the trafficsituation. With a manufacturing faciiity, the same thing.
conrad: rt courd by chance be quite comprimentary to the area. Then onthe other hand it's a little bit out of sync with $rhat's there. rs thera motion on the zoning ordinance amendment to permit garden centers as aconditional use?
Emmings moved, Erhart seconded that the pranning commission recommendapproval of Zonj.ng Ordinance Amendment Request #88-7 to amend Section26-7L4, Conditional Uses in the BH District as follows:
(5) Garden Centers.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
(
Emmings moved, wildermuth seconded that the planni.ng commission recommendapproval of Land Use plan Amendment *88-3 to redesignate 1.7 acres ofindustrial to commercial subject to the approval of the MetropoLi.tancouncil - Alr voted in favor except Batzli and Erhart who opposed and themotion carried with a vote of 5 to 2.
PJ. ann i ng Commission
June 1, 1988 - page
Meeting
15
t
Erhart: Why do we need approval from
Dacy :
a minor
Because werre changing our Land
amendment through their office.
Metropol i tan
Use in the
Council on
Comp Plan.
this?
I t $rou Id be
ElIson: How did
would never have
one owner land?
it get split like this in the first place? Normally wedone this sort of thing? This was always a one person,You're saying this was just part of an oversight?
Dacy: Right.
Batzli: By voting for this, what we're going to do is move the BH rineover.
Erhart: Or you could go the other way.
Conrad: Your reason Brian? (for voting in opposition)
Batzl i :
they I re
Erhart:
to have
Conrad: Br ian,
BatzIi: pretty
convinced tha t
Ird Iike to see something in writing, more concreteproposing to do with this property prior to changing
I want to add my vote to opposing also. The reasonjust a Iittle better ana1ysj.s...
as to lvha tthe land use -
I would like
{
Emmings moved, wildermuth seconded that the pranning commission recommendapproval of Rezoning Request #88-3 to rezone 1.7 acres of property fromroP, rndustrial office park to BH, Business Highway Distriat lubject toapproval of the Land Use plan Amendment by the City Council and theMetropolitan county. Hnmings, Erlson, Headla and lrlildermuth voted infavor of the motion. Batzli, conrad and Erhart voted in opposition of themotion. The motion carried with a vote of 4 to 3.
your rea son ?
much the sameit shouldn ' t be
reason as well as
rezoned enti rely the fact that Irm notLo I OP.
Conrad: Tim you voted.
Erhart: Same reasons I stated before.
Conrad: My reasons, I would like to see a concrete proposalus. Irm extremely concerned about the traffic probl;m ihatgeneraEed with the new realignment of TH I0I.
1n
may
front of
be
t Emmings: ...I think you told me that $re can't proceed that way. we canrtconsider rezoning, $re canrt demand they have u ptu., taken into account inthe anlysis of whether or not we're willing to i"ro.,".
Planning Commission
June 1, 1988 - page
Meeting
I7
a
Dacy: Irm still conferring with my previous opinion. what yourredeciding on the rezoning iisue is ir'yooi i"-t"i"iiv"..ti=ii*r erith alr ofthe uses in that district being appliSd to thut parcelr y€sr you may havea specific- site pran that's coming- in at the .a*l ti.e'u,rt you,ve got tobe aware that that specific site !ran, that he deverope, .o-ota carr. it aP.rrf"l:, the property is sord and you'could be rookin! at another use forthat district. you just can't bas6d your approvar on the rezoning sorelyon that site plan.
Batzli: I would like to state that I don,t think thereanalysis of what that property could be zoned. ShouldWhat should it be there? We were presented this as ifgarden center. There was no anlysis of what the use ofsite should be.
{
Conrad: That's would be appropriate.Steve, yourre absolutely right. This itower non-specific but nobody, s persuad
can go either way and the only way I castuff and the real stuff is not here.staff investigation of what's the bestbeing here, I don I t r^rant to change the
was any realit be zoned I Op?it's going to be athat par ti cul ar
item that vre'redeciding whether itfurther along than we
Emmings: Except harf the site is arready exactly the zoning we gave thewhole thing so I suppose to the extent that the..
Batzli: r know but itrs arbitrary on which way you erant to make the wholelot. I think we,ve should just look at that.
Enmings: r guess the answer to that would be, either one didnrt have...
Dacy: We can certainly do that anaLysis for the Council.
I think they would appreciate that.s philosophy here. This is ivoryed me that we should change it. In go either way is to see the realIn the absence of a real thoroughand in the absence of the applicantzoning.
Emmings: Mymulling over
would be t terare now.
thinking ontonight is,
to be BH or
that issue, this particular
you could spend four years
IOP and we woul,dnr t be any
Conrad : Right. Butbe able to make somesit here tonight.
the applicantpositions but
they had a plan, we mightapplicant doesn ' t want to
if we saw
real good
and
the
PUBLIC HEARI NG:
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO26-795, AND 20-815 TO PROVTDE
FOR LOTS ADJACENT TO RAILROADS
CHANHASSEN.
Al"lEND SECTTONS 20_695, 2A_7L5, 2g_774,
FOR MINIMUM BUlLDING AND PARKING SETBACKS
AND RESIDENTIAL ZONING DISTRICTS, CITY OF
Public present:
Name
DarrelI Fortier
Add ress
Architect and Land planner for Frank Beddor
(
CITY OF
EIIflNHfiSSE}I
P.C. DATE: Aug. 17, 1988
C.C. DATE: Sept. 12, 1988
CASE NO: CUP *88-11
Prepared by: Dacy/v
ko
lrlF
U)
PROPOSAI,:
APPLICANT:
- -tE
TH
of
2L2
the
adjacent to Chaska
TH 101 and TH 212
North of and adjacent to
Boundary - One Mile West
Intersection
Harry Lindbery
6901 Maloney Avenue
Hopkins, MN 55343
,ict.oi b1 Cli/ Adnhlsltlhr
i:!.rt','a y'
*'ti-6
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENSITY:
ADJACENT ZONING
AND LAND USE:
WATER AND SEWER:
PEISICAL CEARAC.:
2OOO LAND USE PLAN:
A-2, Agricultural EstaLe
40.48 acres
N-
S-
E-
w-
A-2;
A-2i
A-2i
city
Hesse Earm
single family residences
Assumption Seminary
of Chaska - Vacant residential
Not available to the site.
The site is traversed by a
Minnesota River. Existing
located along TH 212.
tr i bu tary
f arms tead
to t
is
Agricultural
STAFF REPORT
Fz
()
=LL
Conditional Use Permit Request for a contracto!rs
Y ard
LOCATION:
-__JLf'l
I
t
,t
._ t:
i
A2
roP ,)--i. .:
G
oo!
l
ooI
I
I
a
dr
FA
Llx-ryd.J- q
YA({J2
sco TT
,
,.-.!
I
(
Lindbery CUP
August 17, 1988
Page 2
Engineering Department
Building Department
Resource Engineering
Public Safety Director
Minnesota DNR
Attachment *l
Att.achment # 2
Attachnent lt 3
Attachment *4
The proposed driveway across the
creek will require a DNR permit.
ANALYS I S
Existing Conditions
The site contains an existing single family home located near TH2L2. The site is traversed by a creek which is tributary to the
llinnesota River to the south. Along the creek are extensive
stands of matsure vegetation. To the north of the stand of trees
is open field and orailic stands of trees.
Proposal
The applicant is proposing a contractor's yard including
construction of a 7,000 square foot truck storage building and a
1r200 square foot office immeiliately attached to the t.ruck
storage building. OutCoor storage areas are also proposed along
the northeasterly side of the building. The applicant is pro-
posing to serve the site by a gravel driveway matching Ehe loca-
tion of the existing driveway. The proposed building is to be
consEructed of 26 guage steel sheeting to be painted a sand/earth
tone co1or. The proposed roof pitch would be 1:12. The proposed
building is a wedgecore building (see Attachment #5). The truck
storage area will contain 4 to 5 bays for maintenance and for
storage. Eight to ten vehicles, includings pick-ups and semis
will be generated from the site. The applicant estimates 15
trucks at rnaximum for future expansion. Two or three employees
will be located in the office building during the day.
Approximately 8 to 10 employees would be entering and leaving the
site.
The applicant indicaces that his contractor work includes
tsransportation of sand, gravel and other excavation material.
also contracts with ut.ility companies such as NSP and Minnesota
Va1ley Electric to transport and install utility po1es. Theapplicant also indicated his business also includes shippingmaterials for various companies. For example, the applicant
He
REFERRAT AGENCIES
grould. arrange to have trucks transport materials from onenation to another. The materials would not be stored atposed building site but the arrangements would be made atoffice to arrange for the shipping activity.
Also proposed is outdoor storage of railroadgravel which would be located in the area totruck bay and storage building.
desti-the pro-
the
ties, timbers orthe rear of the
The applicant is also proposing to install an underground dieseltank to service the trucks at the site. The applicint hasalready conferred with the public safety oirec-tor regarding thismatter.
The applicant is aware of the need to sprinkler the building andwilI comply with that requirement. The applicant tr"" .ona"6t"asoil borings and percolation tests in comiiiance with the septicsystem ordinance. The applicant has also agreed to install aholding tank from the waste generated from [.he truck stoiig" por_tion of the bui lding.
Contractor's Yard S tandard s
section 20-255 of the Zoning ordinance establishes g conditionsfor contractorts yards in the A-2 District. tt"-""Ui""I-siteexceeds the lot size. requirement, the proposed storaie and yardaleas meet the building setbacks from road right_of_iay" anisingle family homes, ana the site is located ilong a mirro.arterial .
No screening, hovrever, of the outdoor storage area is proposedalong the north side-of the proposed parkin! area. existLngtrees on the site wirr serve as-a goo& buff6r to shierd trre'usefrom traffic on TH 212; however, tfie view to the north from theHesse Farm lots needs to be addressed. The ordinana" ..qrir."that a1I outdoor storage areas must be completely screened by100t.opague fencing or-berming. It is recommend;d that theapplicant install a 6 foot fence around the perimeter of theparking area on the north side of the buiriling. the soils in thearea are very sandy and may not be suitabte f6r certain speciesof_ evergreens. rf the applicant can propose a landscapini -if".
which can completely screen the outdoir storage area, such wouldbe acceptable.
This contractorrs yard is located in excess of one mile of theclosest contractorr s yard which is the Admiral wa.te lai"igementsite at fH 272 and TH 101 (it is our understanding, horer6i, ttr.tsite may not be developed for that use).
limited to
on Sunday
Hours of operation according to the ordinance must be7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.n. ttondiy through Saturday. Work
Lindbery CUP
August 17, 1988
Page 3
Lindbery CUP
August 17, 1988
Page 4
and holidays is not permitted. No lighting is indicated on che
site plan, however, if such is proposed it. must be shielded and
the glare directed on the parking area. Outside speaker systems
are prohibited by the ordinance.
Conditional Use Standards
Section 20-232 establishes 12 conditions for a contractor's yard.
1. Will not be detrimental to or endanger the public health,
safety, comfort, convenience or general welfare of the neigh-
borhood or the city.
* The proposed location of the contractorrs yard is well
secluded to the rear of the property. l{hile there may be
no direct inpacts from the proposed use at this proposeil
location, other factors such as the access to the site irill
be discussed in another standard. The proposed number of
vehicles and employees are similar to other applications
approved by the city such as Admiral waste Management t
Merle Volk, R & w santitation and Gardeneer.
2. will be consistent with the objectives of the cityrs compre-
hensive plan anil this chapter.
* Contractor's yards are currently permitted as a conditional
use in the A-2 District. The Planning Commission and City
Council are currently considering amending the ordinance to
eliminate contractorrs yards as a conditional use. Because
the applicant has filed this application prior to this
ordinance action taking place, the use will be grand-
fathered in. Eowever, if the ordinance is passed to elimi-
nate contractorr s yards, expansion would not be permitted
beyond what i{as approved in this application.
3. will be designed, constructed, operated, and maintained so to
be compacible in appearance with the existing or intended
character of the general vicinity and erill not change the
essential character of that area.
* The site is bounded by the Assumption Seminary to the east,
several single family homes along 'IE 2L2 to the south and
vacant residential land on the west in the City of Chaska.
Besides che Assumption Seminary, the general character of
the area can be described as rural with a handful of homes
along TH 212 before entrance into the conmercial area in
the aity of Chaska. The secluded location of the building
would not change the general character of the area.
Lindbery CUP
August 17, 1988
Page 5
Wi 11 not be
neighboring
hazardous or
uses.
4 disturbing to existing or planned
5
* Because of the parcel size and the secluded location, theproposed use will not be hazardous or disturbing toexisting uses. If_the outdoor storage areas ar; properlyscreened this would minimize the visual effect frorn Lhe -
Hesse Farm area or the Land area in Chaska.
Wil-1.be served adequately by essential public facilities andservices, including streets, police and fire protection,drainage structures, refuse disposal , grater a-nd se*er systemsand schools; or will be served adequately by such facilitiesand services provided by the persons or igencies responsiblefor the establishment of the proposed use.
* The site will be served by a septic system for the employeebathroom and a holding tank for the wiste from the trick-storage and bay area. The septic sites nust be protectedduring constructj.on. Resourci Engineering also ilasspecific design recommendations regarding t.he septicsys tem.
The applicant has provided an on site retention pond totrap the runoff from the proposed site.
The applicant is proposing a gravel roadway and parkingarea. Although not zoned commercial and therefoie not-required, staff would recommend that the driveway andparking area have a paved bituminous surface beciuse of theheavy truck traffic entering and leaving from the site andto minirnize the washout of Lhe gravel iito tne retentionpond and creek. Eaving a bituminous surface will also helpfinish the site and inprove its appearance.
Will not create excessive requirements for public facilitiesand services and will not. be detrimental to the economicwelfare of the community.
* The proposed location will not create the need for publicfacilities and services not already anticipated.
t{i11 not involve uses, activities, processes, materials,equipment and conditions of operati;n that will be detrimen_tal to any persons, property or the general welfare becauieof excessive production of Lraffic, ioise, smoke, fumes,
* There will not be excessive amounts of noise, smoke, fumesor odors, rodents or trash eminating fron the si!e. Thetraffic issue is discussed in the next standard.
6
7
Lindbery CUP
August I7, 1988
Page 6
8 Will have vehicular approaches to the property which do not
create traffic congestion or interfere with traffic or
surrounding public thoroughfares.
* MnDOT has advised staff verbally that at minimum a right
turn lane will be required into the site. Secondly,
depending upon the amount of eastbound traffic turning leftinto the site MnDOT rnay require a left turn lane. This
would mean at minimum restriping of TH 2L2 in front of the
proposed driveway entrance. TE 2L2 in this area carries
approximately 10,000 ADT. The addition of 10 to 15
vehicles, while not an excessive amount, will cause an
additional interuption on the stream of traffic.
Therefore, it is imperative that the right and left turn
lane if required is installed.
will not result in the destruction, loss or damage of solar
access, natural, scenic or historic features of major
s ignificance.
* The proposed contractorrs yard will not result in any loss
of solar access, natural or scenic or historic features of
najor significance.
10. will be aesthetically compatible with the area.
* If the site is properly screened on the north side and
because of its secluded location, there should not be any
adverse impacts as far as aesthetic compatibility (note:
the city is working with the orrners of the AssumPtion
Seminary property to improve its appearance).
11. wiIl not depreciate surrounding property values.
Its is not anticipated that the proposed use would depre-
ciate surrounding property values .
I2. will meet standards prescribed for certain uses as
in this article.
prov ided
See previous discussion in report.
9
Summary
Staff meE with the applicant and made clear that the ordinance
only permits contractor's yard activities as a conditional use.
The-applicant indicated that a portion of his current business
does include shipping activities. The applicant stated he.would
comply with a conaition thats would prohibiE shipping activities
occi,rring on the site, i.e. materials that are shipped being
Lindbery CUP
August 17, 1988
Page 7
stored on the site and the site.becoming used as a shipping faci_1ity. The Commission and Council shouli ue awaie, tr"rEi.ii tt.tsygh ? condition praced on the conditional use specifyi"t-inuu noshipping activities rvould occur wourd have to moiitorSa ieiy cro-sely and would more than 1ikely be difficult to enfoic; .;#_:i:1fy in.the.Iong rerm. The 6xtent of rhe propo"ud ."nirl.to,acErvrEy ls srmrlar to those that have been previously approvedby the city. _This application has met the standardi ioi-iocationof contractor's yards with conditions of approval regaraing-access to the site and screening the northiir portion of it6 ""t_door storage area and building.
RECOMMENDATION
Planning staff recommends the planning Commission adopt thefollowing motion:
"The. Planning commission recomrnends approval of conditional usePermit Request #88-I1 subjecr ro rhe iottowing """diai;;;;-l. AI1 outdoor storage areas must be completely screened by l00topaque fencing, f.TTinq or.Iandscaping. A proposed screeningplan shall be submitted prior to iisuince oi a'bui1di"9-p".-mit.
Hours of operation shall
Monday through Saturday.permitted.
Light sources shal1 be shielded.
No outside speaker systems are a11owed.
Compliance with the conditions of MnDOT includingtion of a right turn lane and a lefi iurn tane ifI{nDOT.
2
fnstallation ofloading areas.
Protecrion of theconstruction.
Conpliance with the condit.ions ofwritten in their memo dated August
be from 7:00 a.m. toVlork on Sundays and
Re source
9, 1988.
6:00 p.m.
holidays is not
installa-
required by
Engineering AS
3
4
5
6 bit.uminous driveways, parking areas and
two septic system sites during
9. fnstallation of a holding tank.
I0. The building musE. be sprinklered.
lI. Provision of one handicap parking space.
7.
8.
Lindbery CUP
August 17, 1988
Page 8
12. Contractorrs yard activities only as definedordinance, are permitted. There shall be noother non-contractor I s yard activities.
in the zoning
shipping or
13. The applicant shall obtain and comply withthe permits from the Department of Natural
Watershed District permi ts .
14. All the existing buildings shalt be trucked
disposed of properly.
all conditions of
Resources and the
off-site and
15. The erosion control plan shall be revised to include check
dams at 100-foot intervals in all proposed drainage slraIes.
17. The pond outfall shall be revised Eooutlet detail in place of the wooden
subme rged
ATTACHMENTS
Memo f rom Larry Bro\,en dated AugusL I0, 1988.
I*lemo from Steve Kirchman dated August 3, 1988.
Memo from Resource Engineering dated August 9, l-988.
Memo from Jim Chaffee dated August 3, 1988.
Rendering of proposed bui lding.
Letler from w. H. and Kathy DahLke dated August 8, 1988.
Section 20-255.
Site plan stamped "Received August 10, 1988n.
include a
skimmer.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
15. The plans sha1l be revised to include erosion control
measures for the proposed const.ruction within the immediate
area of Bluff Creek.
CITY OF
EHINHISSEN
690 COULTER DBIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
!,IEMORANDUM
To: Planning Commi ss ion
FROiq: Larry Brown, Staff Engineer
DATE: August 10, 1988
SUBJ: Conditional Use Permit for Contractorrs Yard
Planning File No. 88-11 CUP, Harry Lindbery
This site is located on to the northeast of the intersection ofState High\^ray 2l-2 and Stoughton Avenue. The 39 acre site is com-
posed of a gentle rolling topography with mature groves of trees
and Bluff Creek which traverses the site in the east-west direc-tion. The site is bordered on the north by the Chicago &
Northwestern Railroad.
Sanitary Sewer
This site is outside the Metropolitan Urban Service Area (MUSA).
l4unicipal sanitary sewer is not available to the site.
The plans indicate the location of the proposed septic systemsites. The applicaot should be aware that the proposed grading
completely surrounds the proposed septic systems. Ext rerile careshould be taken to protect these sites from ANY constructiontraffic, These sites should be staked and roped-off prior to the
conunencement of any grading.
The applicant has indicate<i that the proposeci building will- beused for maintenance of the vehicles. The volume and type offlow dictates that a holding tank be located prior to discharginginto the proposed septic system sites. The building officialswill approve the design of the septic system sites and holdingtank as part of the building permit application process.
Water Service
Municipal water servicesources will have to be
is not avai lab1e
developed by the
to the site.applicant.
On-si te
.bl
Planning Commi ssion
August 10, 1988
Page 2
Access
The plan proposes to access State Highway 2L2. The applicantwill be required to receive a permit from the Minnesota
Department of Transportation prior to final approval.
The Cityrs most current traffic counts show that this portion ofState Highway 212 maintains an average daily traffic (ADT) volumein excess of 1I,500 vehicles. The intended use of this applica-tion does propose semi-trailer traffic from the site. Thecurrent volume of traffic warrants the construction of a right-
hand turn lane and. possibly a bypass lane for eastbound traffic
on State Highway 212. Staff has received verbal confirmation
from MnDOT regarding the righL-hand turning lane, however, MnDOTis going to send written confirmation regarding the bypass Iane.
The existing roadway has a center island striped which may accom-
modate a left lurn lane, however, further analysis will berequired by MnDOT.
The plan proposes a gravel driveway and parking 1ot. The pro-
posed entrance grade is 4.6 percent. It is recofiunend,ed that the
driveway and parking lot be paved to prevent the transport ofsilt from the proposed surface into Bluff Creek.
Grading and Drainage
'Ihe plan calls for the construction of an entrance road fromState Highway 212, across Bluff Creek and to the proposed
building pad. The installaLion of the culvert and proposed road-
way across Bluff Creek hrill require a permit by the Department of
Natural Resources, DNR, and the watershed District.
The maximum proposed ilriveway grade is 4.6 percent. These grades
are acceptable. The grading plan also shows a drainage swale
along each side of the entrance road. The southerly drainage
swale may dictate the removal of the southerly building. It is
recommended that all the existing buildings be demolished,
trucked off-site and disposed of properly.
The plan proposes the construction of a storm water retention
pond. This pond has been sized to accommodate the 100-year fre-
quency storm event an<i maintains the pre-developed runoff rate.
It is recommended that the proposed pon<i have a submerged outletstructure. The proposed skimmers that have been installed in the
past have proven to be an on-going maintenance problem. Several
of these wooden structures have been destroyed by vandals and
routine maintenance proced.ures of cleaning the pond. ?he City
will be reconmending this type of outlet structure on all of the
future applications where applicable to prevent the transport of
floating oils and alike from the ponding siLes to the surrounding
water s.
Erosion Control
The plan shows that Type II erosion control is to be installed onthe doienstream side of the proposed ponding site. This plan
needs to be revised to include check dams at 100-foot intervals.In addition, proper erosion controls for the proposed construc-tion within the immediate proximity of Bluff Creek needs to be
addressed.
Recomrnended Conditions
1
2
3
4
The applicant shall obtain and comply with allthe access permit as requiretl by the Minnesota
Transport at ion.
conditions of
Department of
The applicant shalI obtain and comply r.riththe permits from the Department of Natural
Watershed District permits.
all conditions of
Resources and the
All the existing buildings shatl be trucked off-site anddisposed of properly.
The erosion control plan sha1l be revised to include check
dams at 100-foot intervals in aII proposed drainage swales.
The plans sha11 be revised to include erosion
measures for the proposed construction withinarea of Bluff Creek.
controlthe immediate
6 The pond outfall sha1l
out let detail in place
be
of
revised to
the wooden
include a
skimmer.
s ubmerged
Planning Commi ss ion
August 10, 1988
Page 3
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
Jo Ann Olsen, Assistant City Planner
CITY OF
EHINHISSEN
N-+r
I*TEMORANDUM
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SUBJ:
Steve Kirchman, Building Inspector
August 3, 1988
Planning Case 88-11 CUP (Lindberg)
I One handicap parking space is reguired, SBC i340.0300,
Subparagraph 5.
2. Building must be sprinklered, SCB 1300.6905(c).
# v--
RESOURCE ENGINEERING
Rogcr E, Machmeicr. P.E.
29665 Ncal Avcnuc
Lirdstronr. MN 55045
(6t2\ 2s1-2O19
Jamcs L. Andcrson. C.PS.S.
3541 Ensign Avenue. North
New Hope. MN 554,
(612) 593-5338
EVALUATION OF SITE AND SOILS DATA
EOR
ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT SYSTEU
roR
88-1I CUP ( LINDBERY)
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
by
ROGER E. MACHMEIER, P. E.
JAMES L. ANDERSON, C. P. S. S.
August 9, 1988
SPECIALISTS IN ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT #3
EVALUATION OE SOILS AND SITE DATA EOR
ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT SYSTET.T
-FOR 88-11 CUP (LINDBERY), CHANHASSEN
The conditional use permit is proposed for a coDtractor's
yard. We visited the site on l,londay, August 8, 1988 and located
the flagged soil borings made by Larry van De veire. we made a
soil boring near percolation test hole number I and found 15
inches of sandy loam beneath which a coarse sand was encountered.
The soil boring we made next to boring B-4 showed 18 inches of
:,
sandy loam, 6 inches of sand and then coarse sand and gravel.
The two percolation tests reported by Larry van De veire were
performed at depths of 18 inches and both showed p6rcolation rates
of 9 minutes per inch. From the soil boring data as reported and
from our borings made on August 8, it is likely that the coarse
sand and gravel underlying the sandy loam layer would have
percolation rates faster than O.1 minute per inch, thus making
this soil layer unsuitable for the adequate treatment of sewage
and unsuitable for the rock layer of a drainfield trench to be in
contact wi th it.
A number of factors need to be considered in the design and
construction of the sewage treatment system for the proposed
facility. Eirst of aII, the bottom of the drainfield rock must be
in contact lrith the sandy loam layer amd not in contact with the
coarse sand and gravel. This means that trench excavations cannot
be made deeper than 18 inches maximum. Trenches will be necessary
in this area since there are elevation differences of l to 2 feet.
This elevation difference would mean that a seepage bed cannot be
88-11 crJP (Lindbery)Page 2 of 4
installed in the natural soil since the botton of the seepage bed
muat be leveL in all directions. Thus, shallo!, trenche6 would
need to be installed using drop box distribution, since all of the
trench bottoms cannot be at the same elevation. Since the toP of
the trench rock will be at approximately the existing ground
elevation, fill of approximately 12 inches of topsoil will be
needed over the top of the drainfield trenches. Unless tbe source
of sewage is located at an adequately high elevation, a punping
station will be necessary to lift the septic tank effluent to the
Ievel of the drainfieLd trenches.
On the map rrhich was provided to us of the proposed
improvement, the tt,o proposed drainfield areas are bounded by some
proposed streets or drives. It is extrenely likely that the
proposed locations for the drainfield wiLt suffer damage from
construction activity unless they are fenced off and adequately
protected against any type of construction traffic. Experience
has shown that sandy loam soils such as are present on this site
will be severely compacted by any type of vehicular traffic. If
the proposed sites for the drainfields are damaged by construction
activity, it should be noted that there likely are additional
suitable sites for onsite sewage treatment systems on the acreage.
Additional site evaluation will be necessary, however, and a nerr
sewage Eystem design must be submitted if the system location is
changed. :
Page 3 of 4
The sewage system for which we have evaruated the site and
soirs information should handle only domestic-type irastes, that is
from toilets, showers, kitchen facilities, etc. If there is a
servicd bay for vehicres which are lubricated and washed with the
wastes flowing into a floor drain, this type of liquid rraste
absolutely must not be discharged into a subsurface seirage
treatment system or subsurface drainage system. Any r.iquid vJastes
associated with se!vicing vehicles or the washing of vehicr.es must
be discharged into eratertight holding tanks. This liquid t aste
must then be removed from those tanks in a proper. manner and
transported to a waste treatment site operated by the Metropolitan
waste Control Commiss ion.
The reason for this recommendation is tbat irhen trucks or
cars are washed or are in a service bay, theEe is likely to be
used engine oi1, hydraulic fluid and other petroleum-based
products containing hazardous wastes introduced into the drainage
system. These materials will not be filtered or removed by the
soil, and if they flow into a subsurface soil treatment system,
they will percolate downwatd with the water through the soit and
be a potential hazard for groundwater contamination. Many
Petroleum products contain pCB's and other toxic chemicals, which
must be .handled and treated in a manner that srill. prevent their
introduction to the environment. The soil evaluated on this site
is particularly susceptible to potential groundwater pollution
because of the coarse-textured underlying material.
88-1I CUp (rJindbery)
88-11 cUP (Lindbery)
In addition to the service bay drainage and Petroleum
ploductB, lt is llkeIy that during the winter, road chemicals will
be washgd from vehicles and introduced to the floor drain system.
If these conpounds are discharged into a subsurface absorption
system. the soil i i11 not adequately treat these water-aoluble
chemic-als and they will also move downward with the percolating
water and be introduced to the groundwater.
I hereby declare that I am a certified Site
Evaluator and Onsite Sewage Treatment Syste$'
Designer (Certificate No. 845) as designated bythe Minnesota Pollution Control Agency and thatthis site investigation was conducted by me or
under my direct supervision.
btwtl-t
J s L. An erson,D
S, ha.L^att,
Roge
REM/j jm
E. Mac eler,P.E.
Page 4 of 4
L
I hereby certify that I am a Registered
Professional Engineer in Minnesota (Reg. No.
6745) and that this site investigation was
conducted by me or under my direct supervision.I al,so declare that I am a certified Individual
Sei{age Treatment System Designer and SiteEvaluator (Certificate No. 530) as designatedby the l.linnesota PoIIution Control Agency.
CITY OF
EHINHISSE![
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
MEMORANDUM
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SUBJ :
I would
because
P 1ea se
i tem.
Eire Chief Dale Gregory and I have reviewed the conditional usepermit for a contractors yard, your case file 88-11 CUp(Lindberry). Appendix E requires that the 70 ft. x 100 ft.building be sprinkled with monitoring by a central dispatch
s ys tem.
Jo Ann 01sen, Assistant City Planner
Jim Chaffee, Public Safety Director
August 3, 1988
Planning Case 88-1I CUP (Lindberry)
al-so like to suggest some type of security lightingof its out-of-Lhe-way location.
let me know if you have any questions concerning this
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Strucrural lraming memb€rs. rcol and well panob,
bmcing m6mbsrs, laslsnsrs and bolll, 3oalan|s,
llashing and olh6l parls rcquir€d lor a @mplelo
building s)€t9m, Pl6aso note lhat homs Imboddod ln
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Specifications to deslgn the most economical utility building to a commercial
showplace or industrial complex of unlimited size.
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Optional:
Framed overhead door openings and
Personnel Doors
Translucent Panels
Full selection of sheeting colors, galvanized and
galvalume are standard. Trim is galvanized or Polar
White. Other trim colors are available by special
request.
Wedgcor Steel Buildings can be enhanced with
stone, brick, wood, glass and olher exterior lascia
materials to create an attractive cuslom appearance,
unique to your building.
Choose From Two
Sheeting Styles:
Rugged all-steel components help assure long service
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Standard Root
Pitches
Standard:
26{auge steel sheeting in architectural or commercial
high-rib corrugation. Self-drilling color coated
Iasteners with neoprene washers.
- Easy-to-understand construclion helps cut costs.
- '-\_ Engineer certified live loads/wind loads.
Catalogue of sizes: Ouality, precision-engineered
designs lrom small shops to huge industrial
complexes.
14 to 16€auge steel purlins and girts, in accordance
with design loading.
Complete weather-prooling package: upper and lower
closures, sealant lape, sheeting notch trim and
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ZONING $ 20-256
(2) The structure must be in compliance with local building and Iire codes
(3) The site will be reviewed annually through a public hearing process.
(4) Septic systems must be in compliance with chapter 19, article IV.
(Ord. No. 80, Art. V, $ 9(5-9-1(2), 12-15-86)
*c. 2E?5'4. Commercial kennels, stables aud riding academies.
The following applies to commercial kennels, stables and riding academies:
(l) the structure must be in compliance with chapter b, article III.
(2) The site must be located on a collector street-
(3) The structure must be a minimum of two hundred (200) feet from wetland area.
(Ord. No. 80, Art. V, S 9(5-9-1(3), 12-15-86)
Sec. 2G255. Contractor's yard.
The following applies to contractor's yards:
(1) fire minimum lot size is hve (5) acres.
(2) All storage and yard areas as well as buildings must be set back one hundred (100)
feet from public or private road right-of-ways and five hundred (500) feet from an
adjacent single-family residence.
(3) The site must be located along a collector or minor arterial as identified in the
conprehensive pl.an.
(4) All outdoor storage areas must be completely screened by one hundred (100) percent
opaque fencing or berming.
(5) No two (2) contractor's yards shall be located within one (1) mile of each other.
(6) Ho,rs of operation shall be from 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m-, Monday through Saturday
only, work on Sundays and holidays not permitted.
(7) Light sources shall be shielded.
(8) No outside speaker systems are allowed.
(Ord. No. 80 , Art. V, $ 9(5-9-1(4), 12-15.86)
Sec. 2G256. Commercial communication transmission towers.
Commercial communication transmission towers not designed to collapse progressivel v
be set back from all property lines a minimum distance equal to the height of the(Ord.No. 80, Art. V, S 9(5-9-1(5), t2-18,86)
7773
tower.
#7
CITY OF
P.C. DAIB: Aug. 17, I988
C.C. DAIE: Sept. 12, 1988
CASE NO: 88-12 ZOA
Prepared by: Olsen,/v
STAFF REPORT
Fz
()
=(LL
ko
IIJFa
Zoning Ordinance AmenCment to amend Sections 20-572
and 20-5?4 of the City Code Concerning permitted
and Conditional Uses in the A-2, AgriculturalEstate Di strict
PROPOSAL:
LOCATION:
APPLICANT:
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENSITY:
ADJACENT ZONTNG
AND LAND USE:N-
S-
E-
w-
WATER AND SEWER:
PEYSICAL CHARAC. :
EHANH[SSEII
zOA in
Augu s t
Page 2
District
1988
A-2
17,
B ACKGROU ND
On June I, 1988, the Planning Commission discussed proposed
amendments by Commissioner Erhart to the A-2, Agricultural Estate
District (Attachment #1). The Planning Commission agreed that
the issues brought up by Commissioner Erhart should be reviewed
and moveC to have the item sent to the City Council for their
comments and direction (Attachment *2).
On June 27, 1988, the City Council reviewed the recommended
changes to the A-2 District and also agreed that staff should
make reconunendat ions and proceed with a public hearing
( Attachment #3 ) .
The items recommended for change in the A-2 District by
Commissioner Erhart are as follows:
ELIMINATE !-ROM A-2 DISTRICT ADD TO A-2 DISTRICT
Temporary retail nurseries
Chur che s
Recreational beachlotsGolf courses
Group homes for 7 -16PubIic buildings
ANALYS I S
Iterns Proposed To Be Eliminated
Contractor I s Yard.s: Io 1984, the City Council approveC a zoning
ordinance amendment to permit contractort s yards as a conditional
use in the agricultural district (At.tachment *4). The purpose ofthis amendment was to accommodate existing contractor's yards inthe rural area and to establish conditions for irhich to controlexisting and proposed contractorr s yards. One of the conditionsfor a contractorrs yard is that it cannot be located closer than
one mile to an existing contractor's yard. Attachment *5illustrates existing contractorrs yards and shows that there islimited area remaining for future contractor's yarals to belocated within the A-2 District. There is a current applicationfor a contractorrs yard on TH 212 which meets the one mile
radius .
Staff agrees with the Planning Commissionrs concerns aboutcontractorrs yards in the agricultural district. With each newapplication there is rnore of an i ndus tr i al/commerci aI use pro-posed than an existing business run out of a home by thehomeowners. In researching contractorr s yards in other cities,it was found that they are either not permitted at all or elseare permitted as a ',ma and pa operationn to accommodate smallercontractorrs yard operations run by a famiLy from their property.
Contractor I s yard
Bed and breakfast establishmentsMineral extraction
The condition of the one mile separation between conlractorrsyards can enable the Planning Commission and City Council to denyfuture requests for contractorrs yards and aIlow existing
contractorr s yards with a conditional use permit to remain as a
conforming use. One of the main reasons for the 1984 anendment
has to remove the non-conforming status of existing contractorrsyards. If contractorrs yards are eliminated as conditional usesin the A-2 District, existing legal contractorrs yards in the A-2District would become non-conforming uses.
Staff recommends the Planning Commission determine rrhether
contractor's yards should be eliminated and create non-conforming
uses or if they should remain as a conditional use with the small
chance Ehat future contractorrs yards could meet the one mile
radius requirenent. The Planning Commission could also reguest
staff to research more restrictive conditions.
Bed and Breakfast Establishments
on January 7, 1985, the City Council approved bed and breakfast
establishments as a conalitional uses in the R-la Districts
(Attachment #6). For the zoning ordinance amendment, staff
researched bed and breakfast regulations throughout the country.
It was deEermined that the majority of bed and breakfasts
establishments are located in rural areas through the conversion
of farm homes and older country homes.
Staff established certain condiEions that a bed and breakfast
must meet prior to receiving a conditional use Permit approval.
These conditions essentially limited the size and type of bed and
breakfast so that the use would not be too intense for a rural
area. The conditions for a bed and breakfast limit the number of
rooms for rent to five or less and requires the establishment to
be olrner occupied with no more than one employee in addition to
the residents. The conditions also requires Ewo off street
parking plus one additional space per rental room to accommodate
parking needs and that a room shall not be rented for more Lhan
seven consecutive days to Ehe same person to prevent the home
from being used as a boarding house.
Staff feels that the conditions for a bed and breakfast con-
diEional use permit can prevent too intense of a use being
Iocated in the rural area while allowing a compatible use of a
rural residence in the rural district. Staff feels that bed and
breakfast establishments with the conditions established in the
ordinance should be maintained as a condiEional use in the A-2
District.
Mineral Extraction
The mineral extraction section of the Zoning Ordinance pertains
not only to tshe removal of sand and gravel but also to gradingproperty. The onry instance of mineral extraction in the city is
ZOA in the A-2 District
August 17, 1988
Page 3
ZOA for A-2 District
August 17, 1988
Page 4
Summary
the Moon Va11ey Excavation area. Removing mineral extraction asa conditional use in the A-2 District hrould make the existing usea non-conforming use. At this time, staff does not have infor-mation available which could provide to the Council as to whetheror not. this would impact Ehe operation or would imoact otherareas in the city. It should be noted that because this ordi-nance pertains to grading of properties, ere do not rdant to remove
Ehe possibilty for a farmer or property owner the ability tograde property. In fact, there are sections in the mineralextraction ordinance that could be further investigated by thePlanning and Enqineering Departments as to format and languageregarding grading permit procedures. Therefore, staff would
recommend that we would be directed to analyze Article 27 of theZoning Ordinance regarding proced.ures, language and applicabilityin certain areas of the city.
In summary, staff feels that. concerns about contractorrs yards inthe A-2 District by the Planning Commission and Council aievaIid. The condition of a contractorrs yard not being locatedcloser than one mile from an existing contractorrs yard couldprohibit future contractor's yards in the A-2 District. Staffrecomrnends that the Zoning Ordinance be left as it is so that theexisting contractorrs yards, that have received conditional usepermits, can be maintained as conforming uses. The planning
Commission may also want staff to research more restrictive con-ditions.
Recommended Additions to the A-2 District
Tempor a r y Retail Nurseries
In 1984, the Planning Commission and City Council reviewed azoning ordinance amendment to permit wholesale and retail nur-series in the R-1a District as a conditional use (Attachment #7)-The Planning Commission approved allowing wholesale nurseries asa conditional use but did not recommend ipproval of allowingretail nurseries as a conditional use. thl planning Commisiionwanted to distinguish between and operation that caEers to thepublic versus a wholesale operation where goods are sold tolicensed nurseries in bulk orders. It $ras felt thats a retailnursery would be too intense of a use for the rural area and thata wholesale nursery would be more compatible with the agri-culturar district. The city Council ir"o .."o*.ended to allow
Staff feels that bed and breakfasts are Iimited by the conditionsin the zoning ordinance and are a compatible use in the A-2District and that they should remain permitted as a conditionalusein the A-2 District. The recommendation to remove rnineralextraction from the A-2 District should be further studied todetermine the impacts of removing it as a conditional use.
zoA in
Augu s t
Page 5
the
\7,
A-2 Dist.rict
1988
just wholesale nurseries as a conditional use in the R-1aDistrict. In I987, it was again discussed by the planning
Commission and City Council $/hether or not to a1low a retail nur-sery in the rural area concerning the Jay Kronick application fora reE.ail nursery on Highway 5. Again, it r^ra s f elt that the usewould be too intense.
It has been recommended by Commissioner Erhart to amend the A-2District to a1low retail nurseries as a temporary use. It wasfelt by Commissioner Erhart that if a temporary retail nursery isnot permitted to construct permanent structures, or if the areasurrounding it becomes resiilential then it can no longer remain,then the impacts to the area would be minimized and that it. couldbe an appropriate use in the agricultural district.
Currently, there are no "retail uses'r allowed as a permitted or aconditional use in the A-2 District. Staff feels that allowing aretail nursery in the A-2 District could result in traffic, noise
and activity impacts that would not be compatible withsurrounding uses in the A-2 District.
As far as allowing a retaiL nursery as a temporary use, t.he CityAttorney has stated several- times previously that temporary uses
cannot be regulated. Once a use has been allowed as a con-ditional use on a site, it runs with the land. The city cannotlimit the conditional use for a certain number of years or untiL
development around the site takes place.
If the intent of the Planning Commission and City Couocil is tolimit the scale and intensity of the retail activity so that it
could be compatible lvith the A-2 District, staff is reconmending
that other devices should be used rather than using the term Lem-porary. Specific conditions would have to be established vrhich
would limiE the size of the retail center and require improve-
ments to the site which would accommodate the activity associatedwith a retail center. If the Planning Commission anal Council-feels that a retail nursery is suitable in the A-2 District, then
they should direct staff to establish conditions to limit the
scale and intensity of the reEail activity rather than al1ow it
as a temporary use.
Churches
In 1986, the City Council amended the zoning ordinance to allow
churches as a conditional use in the RSF and R-I2 Districts and
outside of the MUSA line (Attachrnent #8). The zoning ordinance
amendment provided specific conditions which a church must rneetprior to receiving the conditional use permit to permit a churchto be located outside of the MUSA line.
ZOA in
Augus t
Page 6
the
L7,
A-2 District
1988
The current zoning ordinance al1ows churches as a conditional usein the RR District but does not allow them in the A-2 District.It lrras the intent of the zoning ordinance amendment in 1986 topermit churches outside of the MUSA line Lo be permitted as aconditional use. The conditions for a church in general and spe-cific conditions for a church outside of the MUSA line willcontrol the location and suitability of the site so that it r.rould
be compatible with other uses of the A-2 District. Staff recom-
mends that the zoning ordinance be amended to allow churches as aconditional use in the A-2 District.
Recreational Beachlots
In 1987, the Planning Commission and City Council approved the
zoning ord.inance amendment to a1low recreational beachlots in therural districts (Attachment f9). The purpose of the zoning ordi-
nance amendment was to accornmodate a proposed recreational beach-lot as part of Lake Riley Woods Subdivision and to establishconditions for rural beachlots as part of Iarge lot subdivisions
which could be subdivided when sewer and water becomes available.
Currently, the ordinance only allovrs recreational beachlots as aconditionaf use in the RR District but it was the intent of the
ordinance to a11ow them as conditional uses in the A-2 Districta1so. Therefore staff recommends that the zoning ordinance be
amended. to aIlov, recreational beachlots as a condiEional use inthe A-2 District.
GoIf Courses
It has been recommended that golf courses be allowed as a con-ditional use in tshe A-2 District to accommodate the Bluff Creek
Go.Lf Course located rcest of Hwy. 101 and south of Pioneer Trai1.Prior to making a recommendation on amending the ordinance to
a1low golf courses in the A-2 District as a conditional use,staff is recoru[ending the Planning Commission and City Councilgive direction as to the intensity and size of a golf coursefacility they feel wouLd be appropriate for the A-2 District.Staff can provide specific conditions which woutd accorunodate theBIuff Creek Golf Course and future proposals similar the Bluff
Creek Gol-f Course or conditions which would allow a larger faci-1ity ( "country club" ) .
The Planning Commission and City Council shou.Ld determine if theyprefer a smaller club house with a sma1l cafeter ia,/lounge faci-lity and locker rooms versus a large country club which would
accorunodate possibly a swimming poo1, $redding receptions, etc.Therefore, staff recommends that no action be taken yet ongolf courses until the city establishes hrhat type of golf course
and club house they feel is appropriate for the a-2 Dist.rict forsLaff to establish specific conditions to accornmodate that use.
ZOA in
August
Page 7
A-2 Di strict
1988
the
17,
Group Homes
In 1985, the Planning Commission and City Council amended thezoning ordinance to allow group homes for 7 to 16 persons in theR-la District (Attachment f10). The city established specificconditions for a group home in the agricuttural district for 7 to16 persons. The current zoning ordinance does not allow group
homes for 7 to 15 persons as a conditional use in either the RRor A-2 District but does permit them in the A-1 District. Theintent of the ordinance amendment in 1985 was to a1low them asconditiona] uses in the agricultural district. The conditionsestablished would allow group homes for 7 to 16 persons in boththe RR and A-2 District to be compatible with those districts.
Staff is recommending that the zoning ordinance be ameniledpermit group homes for 7 to 16 persons as a conditional usethe A-2 and RR Districts. Staff will have to advertise fcrpublic hearing to amend the RR District.
toin
a
Public Bui ldings
It has been recommended to add public buildings as a conditionaluse in the A-2 District. Currently, the zoning ordinance doesnot have a definition of a public building and the only districtthat allovrs a public building is the A-1 District as a con-ditional use. Staff has no objection to permitting publj.c
buildings as a conditional use in the A-2 District. Staff recom-
mends that the Planning Commission and Council direct staff co
create a definition for public buildinqs, establish conditions
deemed necessary for public buildings as a conditional use and to
determine in which zoning district public buildings would be
appropriate.
Summary
Staff feels that temporary retail nurseries should not be added
as a conditional use in the A-2 District. Staff agrees that
churches, recreational beachlots and group homes for 7 to 16 per-
sons should be added as a conditional use in the A-2 District.
Staff is also recommending that golf courses and public buildings,
as a conditional use in the A-2 District, should be further
researched to determine appropriate conditions.
RECOMMENDATION
The Planning Commission should direct staff to further research
eliminating mineral extraction as a conditsional use in the A-2District and research conditions for adding golf courses andpublic buildings as a conditional uses in the A-2 District.
ZOA in
Augu s t
Page 8
A-2 District
1988
the
17,
Staff recommends that temporary retail nurseries not be atldedas a conditional use in the A-2 District and recommends not eli-minating bed and breakfast establishments as a conditional use inthe A-2 District. Staff also recommends t.hat contractorrs yards
be rnaintained as conditional uses with the possibility of adding
more restrictive conditions.
Planning staff recommends the Planning Commission adopt thefollowing motion:
"The Planning Commission recommends adding churches, recreationalbeachlots and group homes for 7 to 16 persons as conditional usesin the A-2 District. "
ATTACHMENTS
Letter from Tim Erhart dated May 27 , 1988.Planning Commission minutes dated June 1, 1988.City Council minutes dated June 27 , L988.Information on contractor's yards.
Map of one mile radius of contractorr s yards.Information on bed and breakfast.Information on retail nurseries.Information on churches outside of the MUSA line.Information on recreational beachlots.Information on group homes .
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
IO
Tim A. Erhart
775 West 96th Street
Chanhassen, li'li nnesota 55317
May 27, 1988
Pl ann i no ommt sston
Subject: Land use in A-2 Districts of Chanhassen
l,le have recently reviewed a number of proposals raising the question: Hhatis proper land use in Chanhassen's A-2 Zoning District? The proposals we,veseen include batting facilities, miniature goif courses, produce stands,retail nurseries, contractors' yards, garbage truck storage and cieaning,
etc .
tle have attempted to use our zoning ordinance as a guide in approving
denying these requests. In general our new ordinance is consistent in
assignment of compatible uses in the various zoning districts.
exception is the A-2 distrjct where the allowed uses are incompatibie
some cases. As a result, I have become increasingly uncomfortable with
recommendations that the commission has been forced to make following
guidel ines of our zoning ordinance.
In analyzing this problem we should review the first stated "Purpose" of our
zoning ordi nance:
l-21 - "Protect residentiai, commercial , industrial , andinstitutional areas from the intrusion of incompatible uses."
Applying this goal as the basis for determining acceptabie uses in aparticuiar zoning district we must decide which uses are compatible and
which are intrusive within any particular district.
The titles of the districts, to a great degree, tell us what the intended
uses are. For example, the intent statement for the A-2, Agnicultural
Estate District states "Preservation of rural character while respecting
developrnent patterns by allowing single family resjdential development". In
general , those uses which are compatible w'ith intent of the A-2 district
are those associated with raising crops and cattle. In addition, things
found in residential areas such as swimming poois, tennis, day care, and
home occupations would be compatible in this area by definition. One cangenerally conclude that uses re1 ating to agriculture and listed in the A-1,Agricultural Preserve district as well as those uses generally re1 ated to
Residential and found I isted in the RSF, Residential Single Family district
should be allowed. This anaiysis is stra'ig ht forward and one might concludethat a method for creating the list for the A-2 district would be to simplylist ail those allowed in both A-1 and RSF districts. For the most partthis has been done as the following chart shows.
t
((
or
i ts
The
in
the
the
H7
a (
Permi tte Uses A-I RSF A-2
Agri cul ture
Publ ic & private parks & open space
Si ngl e family dwellings
Uti I ity services
State licensed day care centerfor twelve or fewer children
State licensed group home servingsix or fewer persons
Temporary real estate office and
model homes
Arboretums
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
xx
x
x
xY
x
x
x
Permi tted A ccessorv Use s A- I RSF A-2
Agri cul tural buildings
Garage
Private stab l es
Swimming pool s
Tenni s cou rt
Signs
Home occupati ons
One dock
Road side stand
Private kennei
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
X
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
Conditi onal Uses A-RSF A-21
Publ ic building
Temporary mobile home
Group home for 7-10 persons
Churches
Pri vate stabl es
Residenti al beach I ots
Commerci al kennel s, stables,riding academi es
x
x
x
x
0
x
0
x
2
x
x
x
x
C
Notably absent from the list in the A-2 area are: public Buildings,churches and Beach Lots. I suggest we reviei{ the absence
'oi iti".J'rr",since .it appears we are acting as if some or tneiJ are- r nii-uo-ea asallowable uses in the A-2 area.
In .analyzing this, you can see that to a great degree, the A_l and RSFdistricts are-inherently compatible as we see- that ali most all oi thJ rr.,rrsf,eo are allowed in both districts. Note that industr.iai and commercialuses however, are not allowed in either area.
There are three other major categories of uses which keep coming to theconmission as a desired use (by applicants) in this distiict. tome u."incompatible uses and shouldn't be iilowed yit are found I isted as alioweo.
Some uses are probably compatible, but are not allowed.
General Use Cateoori es D i scu s sed
OPEN SPACE RECREATIONAL
SALE OF UNPROCESSED AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS
INDUSTRIAL/NON-AG COMI4ERC IAL
I believe we must carefully analyze these uses and eliminate those which arecurrently al.lowed which are intrusive. I'le should also review some useswhich I believe should be included in the A-2 district but are not.Completing this task would el iminate the contradiction in the I ist ofallowed uses and better help guide Chanhassen,s growth. In addition, we can
avoid_some of the problems we now experience su-ch as contractor,s yards inan RSF district which become permanent, neighborhood fixtures.
OPEN SPACE RECREATIONAL
Oefinition:
Open space recreational can be defined asparceis of inexpensive land for outdoor
Examples: Golfing, hunting clubs, stables,
those uses which require large
sporting or cultural acti vi ty.parks, arboretums, zoos.
Analysis:
These uses already exist within the A-2 district of Chanhassen and aintrusive with the rural nature of the area. Some of these actirequire buildings or equipment which may be intrusive, however in allthe structure is accessory to the primary use, that being use of the I
re not
vities
cases
and .
2
(
SALE OF UN PROC ES S E D AGRI CULTU RAI P RODUCTS
This is a busjness whose major
unprocessed agricultural products
nursery stock.
activity is selling or
such as vegetabl es, fruits,di stri buti ng
flowers and
Defi n ition:
Anal vsi s:
Our current ordinance allows both road side stands and wholesale nurseriesin the A-2 districts. The road side stand is retail, wtriie itre wtroiesatenursery' vhich_ by definition, is not. Our ordinanie does not iestrictactivity to sales of only those items grown on site. sales of aqricuituratproducts-by local growers have long bein associated wrfh ih" "uiii-settingll9...t_]9lg .r^ the sales are reitricted to unprocessed materia.ls-e.g.,rrurt'- pran-ts' trees, etc. I believe this activity in fact compiiments lheagricultural nature of the district.
Should we allow retail Nursery sales in the A-2 area? I believe we should.ue--currently .have two nurseiies within our A-2 district. Halli Nurserysells retail because it is.grandfathered. HorthwJst Hr"ierv *ii,ii i'ii" toseil. retail, but is restriited to wholesale at this time] Like Halla,Northwest grows some of its material on site.
I suggorst that if retail sales occur on site that we limit those sales tomaterials grown on site or.on surrounding properties. This would, in fact,encourage owners to maintain current farm Iand in some kind of productionrather than sub-dividing. In effect atiowin! retaiiing oi ;t,i*. -s"orrn,'
products. can actual ry aslist the city in maintiining our -op.n spaie ai tongas poss i bi e.
I also believe we should make the retair sales of agricurtural products atemporary one. This would prevent op"i.toi, fro"m UuifAing 'perrinent
:l:Y:!yI?:, .rd prevent in_comiatibir itv' iiier, when a hish"er' densityresldential use occurs. These build.ings must be removed ind the usesuspended when an A-2 (or RR) area becomes-resid-ential on1y.
4
((
IN DUSTR I NON.AG C IIMERC IAL
There
There
Noth i n
Buildi
L/
Definition:
An industrial or commerciar use can be defined by an_ activity involvingemployees, equipment and t?rehousing *tre"ebi i product is manufactured or aservice is rendered- The. primaiv raiiiiiv' .of an l"ar;i;;;r-'xin-ngzcommerciat use is the buirdinis ,;d-equlil;;-i whereii tne lano'J..o,i., .naccessory. This cornoares to farms, nuiseries ana outaooi- ,.i"..[ion"'*r,...the Iand is primary and the it"ultri.il,ij'eiu-ipment are accessory.
AnaI vs i s
Somehow, in the A-2 dist-rict_, . we have come to accept the idea that anindustriai use is comDatibie within di,"ir.li''."tting. 'I .inroi-iir.ili' unvarsument for concrudino ilrai iuiii a;;; i;';i iii compauure with the slate<rintent for the A-2 oiitrict.--.10*Jr,.:r,-r'iiii u,if-inor.trj.j.i.j.Jr_ngcommercial uses are the most i ntr*il ve ' uies 'co'nce
i vaul e wnen
-yori.'ionl
I a."the type of buiidinos. ahai, ;;;;;;n..,'ir,J".qripment, and the tyoe ofi:::r,r, including n[m6rous .rpfoy..i,' ..e ie-ntrat to the purpose of,this
No different than those .businesses which occupy our industriar zones, acontractors, yard, is an inousiitii-ri..''" --""'
. JI,..g are employees who live off_site. tne Dusiness is housed in an industriai building. [,lill:1. is used ror iiie iir;;;;' ;i ionjucting commerciar
'i s
is9i
ngs
warehous i ng
payro l I
s grown on the site which contributes to the businessare permanent
It is obviously more economicar to put a contractor,s yard on a farm sitewhere land is cheaoer than ln in'liarri.i'Ji parf. Due to the ctoseproximitv to the metro area and tt. iiii-larirtage compared to industriardistricts, we are seeing a growing n*u." #-r"quests for conditionar usepermits for contractorri,yar-ds. it ipp.i.i'that chanhassen is one of thefew remaini.ng suburbs a 6ning .on*..i'o"r;-v..a, in its Rural Residentia.lareas' lle have worked h,a rd
. to- aeve iop
-piiis ini orarnances which assure theorderlv deverooment or chanhaisen '.,"J'l,l't;i;]rr;''its n.turar beauty and smailtown image. (uickry our reiuiliur il#;;;i', are rurning into industriarsprawl as contractors, yards pile ,p G'f,lif "r. storag-e garages, equipment,mounds of barren dirt, "i,ttlng'irio"i .n'j'"lr'r=ti'ns st""r.
l,lhen..a conditional use permit is aoorovpdpennit goes with the proierty- n. l'i..irit.rnls use when residentiai density increases,
5
for a contractor,s yard, thetre cannot seem to elirninateas it certainly will, in this
((
area. Lastly, historically the city has been unable to enforce
regulation which appl ies to contractor's yards. As a result,
contractor's yards tend to grow and become increasingly unsightly
intrusive.
Foilowing is a list of uses allowed in the A-2 district which are ne'i
agricultural1y reiated or residentially related, nor are they allowed in
purely agricultural area (A-1) or the purely residential area (RSF).
one exception is Bed and Breakfast.
Conditional Us es A-t RSF A-2
the
the
and
ther
the
The
Bed and Breakfast
lli neral extracti on
Cemetery
Contractor's Yard
Commercial commun i cati ons
I'lhol es al e nursery
Electric Sub- stati on
x x
x
x
I.
x
x
x
One might argue that the A-2 area is uniquely.suited to serve some of these
uies s-uin as- commercial communicatjons arid sub-stations. The remaining' I
bel ieve, are incompatible and should be removed as permitted or
conAiti6natty permitted uses in the A-2 district. For example, I must
ouestion wtrittr'er mineral extraction is still compatible considering the
irii.iii.s popuiation densitv in our A-2 district. Bv lis-ting "bed and
Uieaiiisii,'ddes that mein we-want someone building a new hotel in our rural
area?
The most gross intrusion however is the contractor's yard'.. Contractor's
vards hav6 noth.inq at all to do with agricultural acti.vity. Ttey_ are
1;;;;r;ilbl. wiit' ietlaential and agricultuial settings' Thev are, in. fact'
;";iliii' i; tt,. ,lrgi.-.r.nity whi-ch Chanhassen resldents value most when
asked-- our remaining open and wooded areas.
ue must be careful not to confuse a landscape contractor with a wholesale
nursery. Landscape contractors are industrial . They do not grow anything
and thtrefore canhot be considered agricultural . 1l;e must be sure that the
language of our ordinance properly separates landscape contractors from
nursery operators.
lle have had an opportunity recently to observe first hand the results of
allowing contract6is' and
-landscapers' yards within Rural and Residential
areas d'f Chanhassen. After studying the issue, I have concluded- that
allowing contractors' yards outside -an industrial zone goes compietely
against-the purpose and objective of our zoning ordinance. liorst' it is a
giowing b1 ight 'to our community. Lastly, we are creating probiems- which
ire noi eas! to solve in the future as we have seen in the Lowell Carlson
property case.
6
({
Recommendati on
I recornmend that we el iminate contractors' yards, bed and breakfastestablishments, and mineral extraction as ailowed- usei in tne n-z a"eii. Ialso recommend that we add temporary retail nurseries, churches, beaitr-lotsand golf courses to the lisd of -conditionally allilwed uses'in- ttre n-zdistrict.
7
Planning Commission
June l, 1988 - page
Meeting
3g
{
Dacy: I just said that. I
Batzli: Can we take abouttry to draft something?
Portion.
break here and just get together and
said this
a 5 minute
Conrad: I don't think we need to. I think we haveprefer not to draft wording to an ordinance by theIt's just not appropriate but the intent Barblra, Iagree with what Steve is saying. I donrt know thataspect to Chanhassen in what yourre saying.
given Barbara... IrdPlanning Commission.guess vrerd have to
there I s a practical
Emmings: Where there's a railroad or a road, yourve got the distance.
Now werre concerned about the screening. so werre noi so concerned aboutsetbacks except in so far as screening takes a certain amount of rand.
conrad: Does everybody agree with what steve said in terms of philosophy? -Barbara, if we agree philosophically with Stevets, if that's agreeingvrith some kind of an intent, what would you prefer to have us do? wecanrt make a motion on absolute words because theyrre not there yet.
Dacy: I would recommend that you move to amend the Section as listedpage 3 of the staff report. State your intent and then I'1I get withCity Attorney to drafE the language. As a matter of fact, what I'II
have the Attorney review verbatim Minutes to make sure.
on
thedo isr
Conrad:
weeks?
Dacy: I
having to
don I t t.hink
review the
so it could
it cou 1d
Mi nutes
Do you have a reason to move it through the City Council in two
Conrad:be back
Dacy: so if you wanted to table
to Council by the 13th anyway with himit would certainly be on the 27th.
for our
it until
next meetinq?
9etbut
here
the next meeting. . .
Emmings moved, Wildermuth seconded to table action on the zoning Ordinance
Amendment to amend Sections 20-695, 2g-715, 2g-755, 2g-7'74, 20-795 artd
2A-8L5 untiL the next meeting. AII voted in favor and the motion carried.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Emmings moved, Erhart seconded to approve theUinutes of the planning Commj.ssion meeting dated May Ig, I-988. A1l votedin favor except Conrad and Headla who abstained and the motion carried.\L- --\1 .-/fr.oenu Dr scus s r oN:7t<
/j\ / \ \
Conrad: LeE me introduce E.his. Commissioner Erhart would like the( Planning Commission to discuss the attached at wednesdayrs meeEing. Tim,- I Ehink as I said before the meeting started, this is really a niceanalysis. You did a real nice job of reviewing the siEuations do\.rn t.here.I appreciate that. That's really terrific. sLeve, did you have any
fl-
PLanning CommissionJune I, 19gg _ page
Meeting
,l
r
recommendations that you eianted to give?
Enmings: yes, r just think too, Tim has made a very compelring case here.Both from the wav vou handle contiactoiis yards when they,re moving intothe A-2 disrricr "ia r tnink rhi;-;;;;; to so Eo staff aid rhey shourdgive us their inpur ., rrn.['rin-;r;";;;p."ed here and we shourd considerrt as an amendment to our Zoning Orainaice.
Conrad: I guess we could go over this tonight Barbara, verbatim or Timcourd give us an overview 6t it.- iI;" iear understandabre. r'm not surethat he needs to do that. wt,"i-st.r"-i!-saying herd like staff to reviewit and comment on the specifics .i-it ..a terr us where stait feers it is;ff:rili:t::.i:.*::.r.i-*,"-i.Jpr,.i"i".. rook ror ah; ;;;;o." not to
Dacy: we have reviewed it and give the approach as similar to the onethat you took $'ith rhe.BE ai"t.iii] 'tiut m"yue we shourd send this tocouncil. rf the elannins a;;i;;i;" !ii5o.""" it, sive ir to councir asdiscussion item. say this is ,n"i" 'tt'e*ntanning
commission !,rourd rikehead on a porenriar ;"ni;; ".ai.ii"I.'Iieooment issue.
a
to
Enmings: The choice. between letting them have a firstopposed to sending them specifi. -i"igr;i. ro change the
Iook at it as
ord i nance?{Dacy: IE might be good thisernere the planninE Comm iss i on
wayis so that the Council can get a feelcoming from as a whole on tfri".---for
Erhart: Except the tast paragraph, I think therers onLythat's missins. Rarher. th;;-j;;;";.;";;n, you say here,pass it to Council- I think iu,= i".ti"hiIe having Comrnon some of these items beforu "" pu.! -;; on. I agree thtry to creaEe lanouage here at lf,i"-i.i.a and get to thethink in rhis kind.i rr,i.g,-ih;;^;"fii; need ro took atthe Comm i ss i oners .
TTinSs : I don't agree wi rh youotten pass them something thai,s
Conrad: It's real logical.
the simple reason thatthoroughly expla i ned -
one pa rag raphs a greaE idea andi ss i oner I s commentat vre shouldn r tspeci fics but Ithe comments of
we don't veryfor
SO
I t.hink that, s a goodcomment that we thinkthe zon j. nq ordinance.
27th. Kind of reserve a
I:l:..:- so you're basicarry,$rrth aII of it?Your comments are that you,re
t Emmings: Idell, werll talk about that.
for. from the Commission is9or.ng Eo the City Council.
Emmings: I think what. we,re saying,up. to Ehe. Counci] just maybe wiit a'Enls we should make some changes to
Dacy: lve could schedule iE for the
idea to pass itthat based on
special area.
in agreement
ErhaEt: So whatwe, re generaIly . you ' re Iookingln tavor of tha t sayrng Eo them,
Planning Commi ssi on
June l. 1988 - Page
Meeting
2'
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Emmings: Do they vrant usbring the zoning ordi nancediscussing.
to basically look at the zoning amendments toin line with a lot of the things that yourre
conrad: rs there anything in here that somebody wourd like to bring up assomething we wourdn't want councir to see? something that we don't-agieewith in Tim's analysis. rs there something thaiis i6"ii-v-oul"ctionabie?
Therers one thing that occurred to me asout there? Almost everything is alreadyin addition to letting in A-2 would be toyard...in A-1.
I read it. ...theis A-I and one ofrequire that the
A-1 and A-2.
Wi lderrnu th :
A-2 d i str ictthe things,
contractor I s
Erhart: There is a substantial difference between
Wildermuth: But in your olrn table analysis here.
Erhart: There is on lot size and so fort.h.
Dacy: The A-1 is 40 acres and thaE's specifically
Erhart: you eliminate A-l and there are onLy twocity in A-1.
for ag
parcel s
Preserve.
in the whole
(
Dacy: l,ty point was that four years ago Ehe Coucnj.l spethe agricultural disEricE at Ehat time to include contrthis amendinent would go back and exclude them. Removecondj.tional use so I'm saying that four years is relati
. span and I talked about this wj.th Tj.m and that might be( !9. some of the Council members. Thatrs Ehe reas6n why\- discussed though.
Dacy: The only staff comment is on the contractor.s yard. That might bea littre poriticarry messy because four years ago the council went ihrougha process to amend the agricultural distr j.cts at that time to allowcontractor rs yards so now you have a process four years later that'sproposing to eliminate them and Tim and I have talked about that.
Dacy: We canrt eliminate A-1 because Stat.efor a zoning district to allow it.Law says we have Eo provide
Wildermuth: That was just a thought that occurred.
Wildermuth: This is a different Council.
Dacy: Exactly and thatts another reason t.hat I think it would be goodhave the Council discuss this thoroughly before you start notifyingproperty owners and conducting a public heari.ng.
Headlas What was your point?
!o
cifically amended
actor's yards. No$,them as a
vely a short t imepolitically messyit should be
Planning CommissionJune I, 1988 - page
Meeting
33
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Conrad: What we,d like to do then, if we send this up to Council fortheir discussion and tireir airect;;.-;o'sraff.
E.hart: Are lre arl saying generarry favorable direction on this?
Conrad: I,ve got sorne small nit picky things.
Erhart: yourre using just the Minutes to support that?
Conrad: I think in our motion lre can...
Erhart: yourre looking for a motion?
Conrad: yes.
Erhart: Okay.
conrad: And send this to city councir to provide staff lrith the directionand r think under that motion we ."., "o,ir"nt t.hat the pranning commissionendorses this parricorui p;;;r.- il".iJ'i". a motion?
{
Erunings moved' wilderrnuth- seconded to send Tim Erhart,s memorandumdated May 27, rg88 onto. the citv-councii ror ttrem-I.-Ji.".i""raff and thePlanning commission witrr regaiJ'a.'-iii"^..ntent and further action on it,noting rhar rhe prannins
';il;;"i;"-iiia"
tr,is ro be rogicarrv exprainedand an arr around good idea- ;ii-;";;"rn favor and rhe moEion carried.
Emmings
and the
moved ,
mo tion ALl voted
9: 50 p.m. .
in favor
Ellson seconded to adj ourncarried. The meeting hras
the meet j.ng.
adjourned at
Submitted by BarbaraCity pLanner Dac y
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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City Courcit !,teeting - ,u,l ,r, ,r4 t
Councilrnan Hrcrn moved, O::ai:S FV?T ceving seconded that the City Councilinterds to parriciDare in tn6 runaing-"i?;;;;"ling project witi carvercounty for 1989 in-an anounr of uppiS*ir*t&'\\r,rar.rr. A1I voted in favorard the motion carried.
B. RETCLING: ClNtsSIDE PICK-T'P.
courcirrnan Horn moved, oouncirman Johnson secorded the authorization to create a:#i5:, cormi*ee for curbside pi;i_,rp. fii'iot"a in favoi uJ-tL iotion
Acting l4ayor Gevinq 3 t€'ve going to quit the deba Ee and werre going to voEe.There is a motion on tt'e *o5i. ''ri,""["vJ, "*iikr ana thant< you very much Rick.rtere is a rnotion on the trooi-#';#.:"i"':^Lona ro lErticipate in rhefurding of tlre proiect tor rgsg-ii ii'Im"i.a',ind r,m going Eo put in a dorlarfigure of Stg,aOS.sg as.our participation foi'rga,.
-o,t "n kE get to the budgetrc wirr set ro hard donars.'E;;;ffi;;:r;iri,rrr.r, so when r.re eet ro Don,shldget $e can put the figures in. enltoAy nave a problem with that?
councilfian Bolt: r have a problen with ccnmitting to a budget ,*e haven, t evendrscussed yet. r think tle-intent. Gv?-iii."u to fund it.
Acting tEyor @ving: Itrat rrould be fine.
Acting !,rayor Ceving: This might Eake sorne time. I hope rire can limit it.Again' r think r*:'re ar1 famiiia*ith-th; ni.'i"i."g conmission notes. lve,veread your letter Tim. I alill at this poi"t-#'aon,t need your cqrmenls,r donrt believe Barbara- tet's go .igtri-;-eiJ"ning conmissions conmenls frcrnTjrn. Slnak briefly.
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Counci lman Boyt: Vittat about t&o.grant monies?
Do t€ need to authorize the application for
Acting t4ayor Geving:part of the first one-
Nl. That r,ras just the cr:rbside. !€ did that. It,s aII a
CourEi]trlan Boyt: So your notion included both?
courcilman Horn: Yes.
DISCUSS' PTAMIING CO{,IISSION RECO}MBIDATION ON AMENDT,TENIS TO BF AND A-2 ZO}IING.DISTRIqT. I - aNr',, a-z o -
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Acting l4ayor Gevinq: r€t's.go ."ri th the BE- The reconmerxlation are amendnenEs:il:i".f,Ly a_2 Zondine Di;ari;a;. -"i"i'.ish;=iu.r ;il-E;;;;ItTi".v
Tim Erhart: cr the B:siness Flinge, r think the cqrmenEs you made tonightearlier, if r.e have a dangerous situation, I iilinx we,re obligated to do
Tim Erhart: I wilt.9ihich one do ]rou qang to take first?
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City Council t4eeting - tne 27, 1988
ff:T3,TI!:.SXlH; .tr""inffi ffi f::?.1?: theTrannins cqrmission ronisht?
TiIn Erhart: I think so.
Barbara Dacy: rtre pranning cqrmission has endorsed this.
Tim Erhart: ?hat,s my comnents on the BF.
ft:'"4:il::.Tl;"' should rne take rhe BE firsr and just kind of krark throush
fftr;H"J:tll'l**'"9 l:k" !o. see sqne nunbers. r think i,s a proposar weorri"u,'piJpl.;;:""::":i:itff iffiffI;, .HL,fl ;.E;i:iJ l:.*:ps;,:rould be, as far as what !ou.r.!p.r;i;"-;;"i:i;r;s are-arrJ sraff. ThaE,s nor thekird of stuff vou wanr ro grbri;i, .*i i-r"iii#'y:tg be crienr privledsedrnrormation, whatever but to. rEke at.a-o."i=i"i r think r*e have to rook at thetrnanciar side of it- r,a.rik" a;;-;il;^,i]*".*.. r,d tike Eo be abre rodo that because f aoree with. you on tUl'uiI.. That parE of Ehe BE, weIIintentioned as it ds r^hen. it- uas cr;;;;:'T; used ro be a business rr'e area
:'t" i i-Lti H= ii.ffi'{U"il tfl,
;., y;:"1 t :,[ HT: jili.'#:.ff,"rnto. Sone concepEs ,*l_:r::,.- .tn*,y., iirj out. ttut those lit[re concepts
ffi ff'::'.ilit'#:.:'i};'H#r:.HF i;'J;' ;"" ni.e i" l-iir i i".?ir*-
:fftfi::.tYf"ilr"jrllin!-ye \ve a-verv danserous siruarion down in thar
or rusiness i di;."i-#*_:i!?'fi1r3ilrffi:: H: r"ffi::T.t"'::il:Il"t*l
)rou can see what the sDeeds are. rt;" jr"t a""sn'E make any sens"-. llow we,vegot lots of land in erinhassen. !{e,ve ;;t-.-;ig ccnmercial irrlustrialdeverognenr just outside ti* .i*"t"iI :; ;";"".-" doentor,,n v,e,ie-iiying tosupport, r.re reallv don ' t neeal . to pr*ot.- "*,iercial develognent in thil ur.uwhere r.,e're not pioviding, t""iriti." "i"-"ri*.i ,a. r think itis veryctangerous. Secordly is that I t'ink ,* t"i!,-.S.in having enough arei forcqrmercial anl irrlustrial here, f Oi.f. ;'il;'this area ro' p""pi" *,o rive in-eruiias;"':;G::"i.ffi*:"tg ff.nffi:ix"crty gers deveroped ard rre have zsldii-;;i;"t,E Fi" "*,. "pi"1,.Tru'" .*iiJ "&ilI;=ri::i: lT;X"ffi:""li, lflf;n"**tied together, to me it's the tir,= to.ir.df Eir"ron on this. trte can do ittoday ard preserve *t. 1..-.u. slnprv uy'coi.ria-il9 -it ao A_2 without a lot offffffi :il.t$*t[:. ttrink your';fo;;I';; -"Lr5. i3 rhe corEem trrat' r*e have*,jkf nff:fr;.t8":Ti:F":i Etr,i:,:ili,Tfi"#Si;::T"iili*.=
r,. not - i_'r;,;^ &i"il; ili:l' 1il.3!l"il.3x, lf "i., l::":"iffi ::,ff:.:htodav considerins the ni."-r::I.rt "il".Iii'ilI!."""" in that area. rn sqnecases, wer ve made a biq investnent t..u in-tu-iowntor.,n area. In fact tre runrnro a situarion where scneboav n.*tJ-io^ili=; on.it in-conveiiini-it"to e_2,look at wtraE it r,yould cost to caopensaiJ ffii;, might conside. es, r tninkit's rcrth ir for rhe ruture of.olail;;J;; ff."..u. thar area and toeriminate, r think a rear bis rrJirilv p."ii"il
i'05
I
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i06 . !-'{.City Council t4eeting _ June 27, 1988
Acting !,layor Gevinq: p ,t-rt you,re saying Jay,. you suggested thaE Ehe Attorneyrook inro some of fure ]eqa] r"i,iii."tili"'Er"iooxi's in rhis direcrion ardconverting that Eo real 6ollars? $t;t; Jir tinanciat liability as v€II?
Councilman Johnson: Right.
Acting Mayor Geving: rs that a fair question Roger? can this be done?
Roger l(nutson: sure. ...tt. uncertainity that someone else rmuld concrude.
Acting l'€yor Geving: B.rt itrs a fair ccnment that lou can take...
Roger Knutson: It might !,Drk for tlE City appraiser for exanple.
courcir'man Johnson: B-rt by him doing it for us, rde're obtaining regal advicejhr"itr"if"s"Tl ff citv eppiiili -ti-ioir,t-r;; ; ;;^fi *lii o..o.n"v
flinS qVgr -@ving: Itlere,s no question tiat the basis for r,rttat lDurverecqmenred frcEn the prannirq cqnnission J;;r;-;;-;#il:i; i#* .. ,ir.,is opening our e,'es to the -wfrore ";;;
-;;;-#;..
r,raybe rc made sqne moves withappl icants that carE in ard had u gooa iJLII-u. tirr= ard rEt be the Councilconsidered it ard said- yes. that ao""n,t.-".n-Iike such a bad place for thatkird of business not recognizing th. iong-Ie-in vieupoint ard wttat this r,Duld doif we con.inued ro prorif6rut..- i'ri,iiii'voii't.,,'n"nrs are very apgrropriate. rapgrreciated readino rhn ard I know it to6f.l iot of thought on your part ardcErtainly the pru.,iino cormission h";-.ili.i irris ana given us their considered;3i:tl:til' You'r6 speakine r"i ti,*lt-r-.ur, ." that, r think you did
Counci lman Horn: lthen I. read everything that Tim had [xtt together, it e,asn,Every crear in mv mirrl . - - then r reai th;';il i.port ".ri thought back to h,try weestabr ished it in the first prace .td; b"r il; it q.s estauiisrrJ-as J pranninglssue or a zoninq issue lrsfqgs r"e had any appticants that came in. There, s alogic there thaE rnakes sense too. rt'= *ouing it to areas lhat created lesstraffic than what was arready p"i rn-tir..J'inE r u9.." with you, r donrt thinkany business like the type. thai h"; g;;-in;wn rhere in the pasr rike the usedcar sales ard sqne of tii lusine;-a;-l;-;";Il"r puuric, are reasonabre at arr.rt t€s the intent, as I recalr as Barb *"'.*fiui.ing iE to us for the businessfringe, that thev rrou ld be the row trarfic aE' ., thirgs. where you go downthere and operaE6 ,o"r uuiires=-urt v."-il"rdIit create publing cuning in andout of there arr tie tine so-r $reigh that wiur what is it taking? what can rnearrow as a reasonabre u": ,{ tt" io9i"-""j"r'ttuc," t}e kind of thing you purin there - sqnethino that rnakes it less or'a'dzara than it r^ras before buE itstill allor.,= thgn slne t),pe of use. f ttrinX-ls far as A_2 goes, you can farmit or put a house on it. obvio".ry tnut i.na il not rarmaure or a very snarrporEion or ir is rarmabre. As far as zurti.g r-t"r""-i"#"ii.I!,'.i!il "." "coupre of houses dosn rh:_.. ::I it'" rii-r".| rttractive to have your drivewayccning riqht out on Hiohe,ay_ 2-r2 so *v ttinxiig;us kind of ccrne around backsaying what staff recqinenaq r9r ti,lu *.i"'"1# ."n". r,m stirr corcerned*:! alr:* saf€Ey issues anc rhar. ttrevi'i;-n*- .na". r,m trying to find areasonable middle orourd where- r.re ".n ao U"itr. - Itrs going to take, as Jay said,a lot of wtra. the ittorney tells us, i" .iiJrinq a reasona.ble use going to rnakethat happen? r suspecE l6oking ,a ic-n.r,-iJ v;urd have been in a-mucf, stronger
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City Courcil Meeting - j-.re 27, 1988 aa 18?
I
position to go to A-2 or to Ieave it A-2 than having now gone to this change, totry ard go back, it nrakes it a lot tougher.
Tjm Erhart: I think t}le. i:ten!. of converting to A_2 lias sftnply trying to reduceIlg *u!! of develolment in either the rExt 20 years or until- suci: time tnecity realry r',ants, at some. time to acquire itlni mare " p.;i-.;;-tr; the staterdanEs. to make a... By making it A_2 you can reduce the aiount of a6vefognentard also reduce the acnount oi traffic that passes there.
Courrilman Horn: I think the thing that broke the logic string for me v,,asalrowing a nursery in there recaus6 that Joes-c?ter m6re to a luur ic irce tiringand that's the one, as r think about what ,* t.i"a t. a., -it ail"ii ,iir" ""n"".lt.t's where r think tue uent across the line in rrhatis reasonabre. the others:::-*t much traffic generaters but tbe nursery r think G b"yo; -"h.t
r,,e had inmlncl.
courci lman Botrt: ltre pranning cqrmission Minutes of !,tay lgth, Barbara made thecqrments that there are severar possibilities hare which certainly rmking atthe Zoning Ordinance is a good o-ne. Ar" oi-ti," best things the City can do iss_et apg*opriate zoning. she also menrionJ ti,oogt th"i--rEt,Jloi"iiJ'oti,oapproaches to sqne of the notivationar issues treie in tt. ,oningl--ili arurri.issues for instance- !€ have o".u"ronuriy-i"uia ai"o="i";-"b.il u'iion*g.road. rs rhat ever rearistic? How .r"t -i"--it'goin9
to -"""r ii;i;'; frontageroad? rt sesns to rE r've. ireara tiguies oi sig,aas.ss for a frontage road atscrne Eime. rs ir conceivabre rhat ;-;;-il;il"i-ir,.t-u" In-.ilJII.ir", rguess
'm sayir', even if $re rezone it n:'re "L, "t .x-*iti, .-rrl'"';."b,r*thaE r'rerve already got in the "*""rt-or"ir.iri. ti,ut goes through that dangeroussection of highway. Are r"re. better "ri-to-.p""-.ur pers6rctive a little bit ardrook at how do ue resorve the issues ti,J G_;rr.ntry have and does that set usup for a better future? I u?I-
-
ritf, V.".
--y."
talk a 1ot about the oature ofthat strip of property and-ail r'nr ."xing'i= ^tn*ut o,t.n r.e 100k at our report,consider the possibirity_of l3nins it "ri"-oti,.. 20ne Ehan whaE it curientty is,let's rook at other options ttrat iouta be-sorne--sort of a IErrnanent fix.
Tjm Elhart: I think Barbara had in her report suggesting about $56l,g6q.gg.
counci lman Boyt: @ardress of the cost, r think we need to have tiat kind ofinformation. As Barbara menEioned, may# *,.". properEies don,t have thecapability of paying off that sort of ir.".=.".,t- uri roe neea to know-thatbecause I think tlrat has an impact on what f<iJ ot zoning is permissible. IE,srather inappropriate ro encourage any kind of business i; ; i;;;^;;iii'.,".r..going to be able to resolve the-trafiic p.oUi-n.
Barbara Dacy: Decide to build the new TH 2L2.
Counci lman Bo!.L: WeLl, outside of building the new .IH 2LZ.
Acting -l4ayor Geving: I g::":-wtlai yourre saying is thaE he not onLy have, r"recreated the problqn because of sqne of the businesses that se've ret into thatarea but what will haooen in the interim betlreen now and the time that r"e dodecide to take sone aciion arr: ,,\e get 2 o.-i ,noi" alpricants cqning in here?They -have every right in the r"prld to move it"ui in that business irinqe areaard develop. r'm nor an advocare of moratorirrni ill-;.IEi;i;'riiilli. ,...us to have a coupre more appl icanrs cqre in i.n the ."", -i;il;;-Lril-L g".
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tCI9 {-City Courci L teeting _ June 27,
scrpthing in place if our. desire is to prohibit iE. If- r€ really r,,ant to stopthat ard take anorher l":f: * aefiniiei,-wii'ao o" able to put in place sonremechanisn just to hord things as they iil ,.iir'r* can get uEt done.
Tim Erhart: r was stunned $rhen that retail or that rarriscape thing q,ent inl:::: l,sg...d b9ysas aown.trrere q,riiI-.rI". ".a r telr you, yor! so in that::a-1"" station ard try to make a lefl turn io-get back Eo my house, it isscary.
198 8
Acting t alncr Ceving: It,s almost inrpossible.
Tim Erhart: rtrs real scary. r thi.nk if werre goirg to let businesses dor,inthere...
t
Councilman lbrn:irdividual. If
As far as nnking it
you consider what vlasstation, to me those...
v,ork, I think it vas just the lastthere before, a used car dealership, gas
Acting l4ayor Ceving: Ihose rere appropriate though in that area. Iheyrve beenthere for years anl tley're going ii "Ly U,... ror years.
councilman ,icrn: rtts part of r*rat r{e tried to do by resorting $,"s to restrictthat. r think r,Je losr sighr of what lE *.. Jot.g *iEh-ili;;;;y:"
Barbara Dacy: At least you know that thatrs not going to go in there.
courci lman Horn: Therers sti[ a charrce to tighten q). whether r+e change it !oA-2 or even tighten up the business fringe .u.i *." to keep any kind of retailout of there. ...arrl then !,re don't have- the cL.ge of zoning tlpe of takingthat people will ccnplain about.
Barbara Dacy: r think the Attorney r.rourd agree that the moratoriun option isnot a good one for the city Eo puriue ard n6ybe v,e $rour.d need to 100k at thelangr:age for the uses in ttre et' aistri.t. dta*. display of merchandise forsale is a very broad itsn. rt could ue treei, -wiagut.'o- o".a-'..i.-"i^urrvtni.,g.r wilr p.rrsue frorn the council's "o,*."t"-itoi you basicalry concur vrith thePlannirg Cqrmissioo r s recomerrlation.
Acting l,ayor Geving: I believe t.}.,at. rculd be, at least htlat Irve heard here.Jay, do you agree that thaE,s pretty much wtreie r"re're going with trris-gE?Alright' r donrr know what y"o'." iooling"iJi'bnigirt Barbara. Justcorcurrerce on that issue?
Tirn EEhart: r think tt* one question
'd like Eo have ans!,,ered in my rnind...torevert back to the A-2- _WtraE is the real "o.t ot liability? If sonebody is::iH.I cqne in here and say hey, y";;;y;;;.'hkins and-r *inc-t'nJiina= or
Acting }4ayor @ving: Itrs certainly possibJ-e.
Tim Erhart: Because I kind of thj.nk that question, to do it right, I thiokthatrs what it's going to cqne down to. Ij th.re a liability?
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City Council l4eeting - Ji -: 27, 19gg
Acting l4ayor Geving:it on you.
You donrt know if therei s a liability until scmebody lalE
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councirman Horn: you raorder -if it's a regal liabirity and a morar riabirity.what damage are rrre actualry doing to peopie from a la-nd ""ro" "iunapoi.,t ro.instance? obviously that'! not i f.gif i""u. o. may not be a legal issue butitrs a moral issue for us.
f:ing qygr Geving: I don't know if ue made a mistake in rezoning the areaIike ue did but I think r,,e had good intentions. I think ,E had a# U""t otintentions . Based on alr the al".*=i*- on-o*,.." ,"= rrere heading, it probabryseqrcd reasonable. What are you lookirg for tonight Barbara?
Barbara. Ecry: Basically whether or noE lrou concurred w.ith the planningCcrrnission.
Acting l'layor Geving: h -!e BF District, yes. Do !€ want to turn the coinover nor^r ard talk about A-2?
rirn Erhart: Reqardinq the }ong letter on the A-2. r t}ink itrs pretty simpre.r think in 1984 when tL turx"a - uuout conEractor's yards ard contractor;s yardsis rearty the pri:ne issue r'!m trying ro i."i *iti, Ln .". r aon;i-tr,inx anl,rcodyenvisioned in 1984 the deverogneit fu,"t r"e wie qoi.ry to see in ilth'"'Gnnhassen. rn 1984 it r.as_siitl, r thini p"i."i".a-uv *;;t p.dG;n the Citycouncil as agricurturar rarrl.- rtis not agri"uiturar rand today. ,,hat you havethere in south Granhassen is row density iu"iJ.ntiur p".iJ. --'rt
"r"' ui" ar*farmers left in south Chanhassen so I t-nink ,o
-fr.rr" to f irrl scme uses here thatfit row- density residenriar_- EVen if t; Lii";" u,t indusrriar uses isccrnpatible with agriculrurar _rani, iE'3 not aq la*l ."}ril;. a;;t. --if,".. .."houses all over the place and more coming in.-
Acting !4ay. or @ving: And vJe kne$, that Eoo when rae started with scrne of ourse$rer projects and so forth. we knew it was going to a"""r"p. - au.i"Il *"rago.
Tifi Erhart: .But you probably didn'E know how fast iE rrras going to occur withthis change in the 1 in t0 which drove almost everybody to subdivide their rard.
counci lman Horn: rhere was another thinq that r."e tried to do there too and thatwas to protect scme of the snarr businesies. AE Ehat. point the oniv-Jition tr.,*nFi f" to try to renr s[Ece i. th;-ffi;;a;iar- parr< or leave Granhassen and wedidnrt want that to happen. This is an inter jm'tlpe of use to try ard keeppeople in business until. you,re going lo G-ioic.a.out.at some day. rt realryPut people on notice that at sqn" ui.i" your operation is going to'hurJ -to .".."and.te're going to create a use for it -in the' agricul turar area on an interim3:::: That's why they. were aLl conditionat us6s because if rhey be";; .ProDrqn am over intensified, when they cqne up for review...
Acting lrayor @ving: That rnay be true but what qle created was rong term. sftleof these peopre thar roe ttrgugi:t ,or" g"inj io L .n interim sorutiin-just tokeep thsn in business in. chaihassen, ih"t',-a onry n .r" becqr= a business buttheyrve expanded the business into lne
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ing .i".r and r don,t know how youshut thsn down. we regiEimized thsn. r,e r,.a tr-n cqne in ani beccne iorma[y
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{City Counci I |Eeting - June 27, 1988
recogni zed as a business as a- contractor's yard and if you donrE arlow it, rirereare you goirg to put thern? There are.or. l*ing. the-re,s qoing-to-L others.
Courrci lran Horn: !,gE i ve approved every expansion.
Acting l,tayor Ceving: Sure re have.
Courcilman fbrn: BJt he donr E have to. V*ren it becornes an overintensi fication, shut than down.
Acting. t4ayor Ceving: So. people. r.vould _say they belong in the industrial pa.rk.IGep than in the irdustrial park. r donit kn6w if ; ..". -_n;;.
ir-iiouuurvtwice as.rnany construction lErds out there that r€ donrE even know about thatare rorking out of their yards ard garages ard so forth.
Tim Erhart: r t}ink more important is you donrt rs,or{ r*ren they expard. yourvehad 1or 2 cqre in here asking for expa.ision, rrd be surprisea'uec'au* - r tiu.next to .'{o of thsn ard they just sort of expand. Cre year tirey goi u iittf.bigger ard the next year.
Councilrnan Ao1ru: Whatrs the possibility there Roger, if t€ don,t have anaccurate
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means of keeping track of contractorrs yard size, do r"e in effect aftersay theyr ve been that rarge for a year, that $re basicarly granrfatherJ thqn inat that size?
@er ttrutson: !b. rt becqrcs- a matter of proof . you have to prove what theyLook like. What you alproved when you approired than.
Councilman Boyt: Ho$, many trucks Ehey had or wtratever?
Actirg Mayor Ceving: BilI, what you have to do is you almost have to take aPicture- A picture of the busineis as it existed oi a given day. ttre luy owneo3- pick-ups, a Bobcat ard x ounber of roads of rock arc 6irt ard- whatevei ardttnt qas his business.
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Courci lman Boyt l
yards ure now have?
Do we have the capability of keeping track of the contractorrs
Barbara Dacy: yes, by site inspecEion.
council$an Bo!.t: I mean realistically. we can do that?
Barbara Dacy: yes.
CourEi lnan Bol&: I{e're getting better at it?
Barbara Dacy: With the addition of Scott Harr, we are.
Courci lman ttrorn: He has to inventory everyrthing that her s allor,,ed on acordi Eional use perrnit.
courrcilman Boyt: rt seems-to -me that- possibitity the ordinance arready crntainsan effective elimination of additionar- contractoi, s yaras ii it"E"r.ir.i.pr"enforces $,hat &,. have to work with. rf $re've got Ehat hhey canrt be sithin a
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City @unc j.l l,teeting - -L e 27, 1988
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mile of.each other, werve basicarry covered chanhassen right now but do i€ havethe dedication of purpose to enforie that?
councilman Horn: r agree- r think it is controrlabre w.ith what lte have. rf itisn't being controlled, itrs because werre not doing it.
Acting. lrayor ceving: Elt i^rhat about sqne of the planning ccrmission conments onwhat shourd be in arrr what shourd be out? what shourd 6 "*;i;;;;---riJt,s partof Tim's reccnnendation. churches, puur ic uuiiaing"
"toorJ- u"-r;'",i'i" *.,a"certain things out. Do l'ou have anli crcnment on tfrita rt,i.g"1ilt ilni't tit.
Councilman tbrn: f have no prgb-len with doing it. I think that r.,hat ere, retarkinq about here has to do vri th contractor'i yards as a conlitionar use but rthink there are. r ttrink the list h";; ;i";.-r; i" ;;. "pp;6;i#.
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Tim Erhart: I guess the kird of ccnmitsoent r.rer re looking for is the generalcorments, to rook at the uses in the A-2 ani ccrne back... rf there aie a n.mber9.f """:- that you'd like at a contractorrs yurJ to mean...wtry don,t we look atthem all.
courcirman *crn: I might take exception to bed and breakfast though. r kno,therers a proposal for the
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Assunptiln Saninary protErty to make it a bed ardbreakfast ard r think thatrs, r roourd rove to'sL scrne ty[E of good use made forthat protrErty so this might be the excpeption io the rule.
Counci lman Boyt: I think the *ork. you put in on this justifies certainlycarrying it further forward. r thi;k v.e rpould be very fortunate if otherPlanning conmissioners liourd take on other zoning dislricts and do as -dorough ajob as you've done with these. rtrs certainiy . "t"p forward anr to have thatkind of dedication is great- for tle city.- i-ioura support it. i ttin[ yoo,.r.scratched the surface on a lo. of tough issues arrl ,'m not sure that i wouta
19ree yitir everything you r{ant to rsnove should be rqnoved tri r iJ-soie'
"n.mpionyour efforts.
@uncilman Johnson: Irm.in pretty. rell agreement here. Bed and breakfast, Ithink scrne size resrrictions, r tninx ir'i Northfield i.a-.-r., oGli'iir.".ttat have some bed and breakfasts that are pi"tly fu.g.. Iheyr re *fi-not"t"wit)t 2a4a rocms ard sruff like that io ,hJ-;;;r" talking about the lady down:r Pl"ff creek h,ho' s got 4 or 5 rooms or uitratever it is, ihat, s o;-thi;g .Pretty low intensive- r'm not too sure about tsnporary retail ,ro."".i.". rfitrs nor in rhere, r think !€ should h"r;-til fJur i. in the finalrecqmendation. hlblic bui td inqs.
Tjm fhart: [et me exolain that one a little bit. Ihe attanpt there vras toallow enough people lii<e the one t "r" ,i,o -".rr=-in here arrl filed with us.
Acting t4ayor Geving: ttatural creen?
Tim Erhart: yes, the one thaE. q,as going Eo replace. To scrnehov, let thern go inon a tsnporary basis but when it wai coiverted to a trury residential distri.ct,that Ehat permit r.rould be automaticaffy Ue-ianovea. What lrou donrt $ant thsn todo is. Eo go in anj invest in . rot oi-6riiai.q"'.rd permanent sEructures. Eventhough. you might want it noh,. as a good Ehing for the city. Hhat you donrE rantto do is go foE the lErmanent...
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LlZcity Courcil l4eeting _ Jun.\ -:2, Iggg
Acting l,tayor ceving: r don't know how you do that. r donrt know hor., you dothat ' r like tle idea. of tqryorary uut'i aon't rnow now-you *ii.oi-trr.t. rdonrt know if you can 1e9a1ly.
Courcil[En tbrn: Ihat's exactly our intent erith cutractorrs ya.rds.
ti:#: *-. Geving: r think you've heard frqn us tonight. It,s getring on to
councir man Johnson: r donrt ttrink retair, tsnporary or otherw"ise, is good dounther?: .wa say r.re don,t want the book stoie aoi., tr,6r"l -i':."i"i1.;i Lirxretail is good in the A-2. you attract too much traffic.
Actirg.l'Ialror Gvir,g: Rarbara, you heard frcrn the council tonight on sqne of thedirection. rhat rE're basicalry sying, Ti.rn has aon" " i.iiiii.-:oil t*r" .nayou just need to fine tune it arn cqne- uack to us. rlhank you u.r!.r"t Tirn. youdid-a good. job. Ard r would agree $/ith Bilr. r rearly peisonart| iik" tt" id.uof cmrnission mernbers taking on a task. rrve ah,,ays "iii-trril-p*pi!' i,o ,u.rtto. fa|e on a speciar assigrrnent. crark has arways had an interest in ourvehicles for exanple. tb. just digs right into tiose. tt * -...-"p."i"l
assigrnents and Itd like to see people-do ttat.
Barbara. Daqr: r arso think Mr. Erhart's enthusiasn is arso refrected in theCcnmissionts willingness to meet three times in July.
CITY COUIICIL SAT,ARY SURVEY.
Don Ashrorth: you received this frqn the . teague of cities and basica[y r.aouldagk tle city courci1 whether or not you wish io consider tt"t .i-tt i"-iir*. rfttpre I s other information ttEt you 6urd r.ike to have before considering thattytE_ of change. r should note that. any action that the council r.rourd take cannot beccxne effective untir after the. n6xt regurar general election. eguin,there. is no necessity t9 make ccnparisons uul r anlicipated the councii reourdI^rant to so rrve incrr:ded literalry arr size ccnmunitieS. r have also ci.rcreathose ccnmunities that r think ari croser to ourserf as far as the arnount ofe.rk effort that cluncil
-msnbers are_ required to go through. rn other hords,ol9ro.'*{ be rarger but r do not ber ievd ut th. "or..nt time that the toEar work
ff::*a;:":t orono councilmqnber is anltrring cios" to !',haE vou u." going through
Acting !'tayor Geving: or at Eagan or Eden prairie. r think Ealen prairie, theynay be a lot biqeer but r thin[ in terms oi-irr"-
"moont of effort in think intttis Courcil proOabty. An)4,,ay, go ahead C"un.if*rnl"rs, give us your views.
Counci lman Horn: I think the closest cornpar ison qe could come to \rculd bechaska ard hre're riqhE in li.ne wi*r trrern.'--i li!' ,ny ,."o*errlation that qre do notchange.
counci Lnan Boyt: r rike the figures Ebn puued together ard r agree cqnpreterywith Clark. ltc change.
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-esuncil
ueering aususr ff oaa -8-
Counci lr.ruran Srrenson mfved to grant a 1l foot side yard setback variance for eachside of the house,a 50 foot lot width rariance , an 8,658 sguare fmt 1ot areavariance, and 33 f @t shoreland setback varr.ance as reqtested for Lot 26 Block 1Red Cedar poin t, L. O. and !,largaret pars ons, PLanning Case 82-12. Itle ovrners will
Paul 'brchert - rt' would. be my understanding tha. we wourd. agree to enter int! avery orler agreenent with the ciEy oE ctran#ssen that leould basicarly describe theoEher proDerries cemed brl .nem ana state ila-Gey ..vourd agree trrat-io-uu,aing per-nit as rc consrrucrion oi anocher JJiid;;ril i.=**i u"'to -[}"L." property.They would hoce to sorE day itcrove t[-#.=;-i; which Lhey ncar rive and r,,rcufdasslrrE that there would be nc ob;ecticn to uhat because they have all r<in<is ofsquare fmcage.
99!nc:4!prnan s\.enson - should the councir agree.$rith this, r ttrink that the neigh_mrs ano any inrerested people should le at&tea to the i;J tr.,"t ,"-'iJ"r o. .ti:::".,1r:fl;l *fgr_": ilffi:* ;;.;-rh;',* wourd nave very-iiiiie r.s.j.
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enter into an agreenent that states that no building perrnit will be iss ued forconstruction of arother dr*elIi ng on any of their other property.llction seconded byCouncilrnn Geving. Itre follow r-ng voted in favor: r,ra*yor Hardlton,Councilwonan
{Sh€nson and Councilrna,n Geving.Counci.Lnan Horn rroted rD. lrirtion carried.ffi :_ffiffto look ae each lEtition on a case b' case &sis as you !&ur-d for any conciitionaluse. Tt,. city Attornev has recently advise<i nre that- rris t*ii"g-"i'i; abir.ity ofthe councir to deny conditional use- permits was a little uit-aiit"rJ than the pre_ {vious ciLy Attlrney's and my ovm unalrstanainq in that you are nore obrigated to iissue uniess there are rearLy severe .ir"*ij"."=. with thur, i-g*"";t];.L llittle bit nr:re ccrnfortable because yoo .." "t"itinq t" " ".itiir, &1Ji ..,..,.*rrrrgscne industriari zation in the rurar. iesidential areas. r don't think these areaDprcpriate in all rocations. rf you find a location o. " =p""iti" prJlsar that,snoc appropriate uncier the statuLe and uncrer case r-aw the ciiy Aaa;;;;'="y= you candeny it an<i you are not obligated to issue " prl"it.
cglmcilwonan srrrenson - r am c-onfr',qed again. r notice that the nen revised zoninganq sr'rDciivrsion orciir:ance draf t is qr:oied here. r take greai *;"pai;; to uris . ra.n terriblv disturiEd about that. For one thing this ="6i".i r-"-IniI*.11v .*=before Ehe councir as far as contractors v*ar ;a r rsnernber r./hen it lras discussed.there was the possibility of doing this wis nentioned u"a ii-r""}!o- larri".a trrraif it were that it shourd. be -c..nfiryd by *i"i-, acreage so thaL sorebody r,rith anomar platted 1ot srvidenr-y decided to ltart keeping i,i" t ".x= "iJ,ria-""d. run usthrough the situation of hlving to defend our position. It sesns to nE that when weare put in a position to reqrEst a conditionar_ r:se permi t th"a-=6,1"b;; should haveto prove to us tl,t have a right to have it there. not that we should defend ourright. to sav no vou can'r. r could not approve uris wictrour ;;tl;;iil a minimunacreage put in here with or without the c.onditional use perrnit - i,-"ia have to sayit wourd have to be at least a minim.m of five acres to iuo^, for screening of anyequipfip-nt.
90uncilrran t{orn.- Didn't we just hear. though tiat the city Attorney says $re can useour,di'screcion in any way !'/e r,/ant to issue these. screening n.y *"tt L one of theconditions.
LQon Ash..rorLh - We did talk p Roger and as you renErnber, it .came up with NaturalGreeo in terms of c-onditiona]- use. There wis d-iscussion as to hco,'we might anEndthe ordinance at that point in tine. !.Je rooked t! a lot of conditions i. . p"rt of
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Council .\eeting a,.rgo O, fSe+
Do we go back to aLl of these and bring thern intorlotgoln9to. I dontt knc,w t}le effect of this.that we have.
f'lavor l{arnilton - what you are going to do is start driving thgn out of tsrrn.
Councilnan Gevinq - We need scne allowance, sqre permitting process to aLlow thsrt.
Counci lwonlan slEnson - Wtnt will you do with the ones tllat donrt ccrne in and not
the conditional ,se process. we got into a position that even with minim.m sizethat you could have a ccntractorrs yard that- the lrard by itself was five acres andfj-ve _acre minimun re:rIy wourin I t najn anyttrinq ror a uurrer. -R"g;r;; ' ;"ggestionrvas just to leav'e it very. si.:rple and estabrish the ccnditions as y;; ;; the par-ticular application ccnr: in.
if ree adopted scnething like this?coromEnce? you know they areI feel !!e need it for those few
Councilman Ilorn I thirlk the int--nse of the use has scne affect, tco. If a gmy has10trucxs on iive acres it might be worse than one truck on two acres.
Counci I am not so sule I would buy that idea of a rdnimun number ofacres .like the idea of havlng rrDre general guidelines and we can be npreflexible i.n our decisions.
Councilnun @vino What are you going to do even
Councilnran Prn, - I generfl1y favor having things spelled out so ttlat sanebodyccnring in wirL kncrur what to e,eect. r tnink ttr6 ocnaitional use is ""*r.nt .t ot "uniqr:e. device an! naybe that'J why they inc}:de that type ot au"ic" recause ttringscan't be incl:ded but r agree with pacin ordinance geir6ration r like to have thingsvery clear cut and crcncise.
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counciLnen gerg - r agree. r think when you start getting nDre people that donrtco,p]y \^,ith ttre raw than do ccnpry with tire 1aw. o. it 1""it " i;;.-;*"b"r of peoplewho are lot coqlying on an issuel re-evaluate the raw and see if it stilr nakessense and then if it stir-l does nake sense you enforce it and ii it-aoesn,t nrakesense you change it. r agree that hre need to have scne provi-sion for a large por-:i?:_":, these people, !9ain, base<i on no neigirLrnm<i curpJaints and that kind ofthlng that we could aIIow them in.
YgYor Hanrilton - r ihink generally these t}'pes of operations !.ant to be furtherout r.n Ehe country and they are not. try:.ng L disrlpc aIlyircdy,s fives.-
I4ayor Hardrton noved * q1":g on first reading an ordinance amendrent to a110!,,contracror's yards as a conciitional use in th5 n-re zoni.n!-ni"tii.L - r[tionseconded bv counciJ.ran Horn. _rhe forlowing ""tea in-iavoi, --r.v"i "r"ii-",
courcilren Geving and Horn- councilwcrnan Sr"rr"on r,oted no. !"!otion carried.
Councilnan Horn - Are we going to go ahead and police this:
9ouncirran Gevinq - bt': say we pass this and we do have these peopre identified:l"r:.f nothing wrong with sending out a lettei stating that this is the policy ofthe city you now have an opportuniiy to come in ana get a permit and be Eotar.ly1egal with the City ord.inances. I think we need to gj.ve them the opportunity.
lgg Sg{gtth - rt 'rrould establish a nechanisn to n.asure hohr they are ccnplying inthe. futur-e so Ehat if you have .r, upp.orJ piar,- and two years fron rrw you are r,ron_dering if there is three npre trucks- ttrere Lna, there was in 19g4 you have scnr:rtringto go back and look at.
requesE a con<iitional use permr t?
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Council .lbeting Augrusr o I984 o -10-
*.!no.t#.;:;:5r$tr.back b the council and rnake a decision wherher or nor you
ffi ff *H*r#*i*"trHtffi.Tffi ;*sffi :"
;;:il'i%ffi"r#,ffi .Hi#i$1i*&,:r'r1r;;:r,itir.rrk#,i.t. curu Lrer Erve years. In 1991 the council deni&
rrravor llamilton - rhat was mcstly for intensification of the use of the property.sc'ctt l\'lartin - rt never realry was used. *i:_F" l.i4 "r gorten ahead of how theappr.rcanE a,.,ci r had *::gn. ii-;;;;: ,iI^La "r.i.ip.."a-u#,rlJir th. n t*.of this use and also hecause or trre siiius'ir'14" r,..d;;;rtrrtl i*. acted onfirst readins, we canit se! eg ilr;i-;;;;rion ahead or trre oiaitnce. whenthis wenr to rhe pranni"6 c**i""i""'Ta-ffi;ir:: as xi3a of a sketch pran reallv-fr:ffiif-:il'3[ffi*.Ll;i"i"lffilsion, so. that''.v-.i,ii L in*.:-''
Fii':i+ H'"S:'Ii:ffi: Itr't tHffi tr^iffiiits*"':"ie'lT&nsmusaid it rooxs ari iarrt ur" *rv it G?J;*r::,Pt:t like it at arI anci two of-thJreccnnendation frcrn ,Erle etanni'ns-c-ofriir",i.'itlliif:--3_ry! without any clearexrenr or rhe prooosed screeninj ."d-b;;;; "{l$+,irin;T"fi'ff:.:ff;ir*"shourci be <i,onJto-screen .rru "pirut.il-"t"I"&*".rv-*y.r#l]Lrfn i" rhar you
i:&ru: :,T:.ffii.T'.#;-:',i* ffi.gTi 3*" si,r*".. ;d-Jio, tire ae,e-a 1ot nore- iine; iil because as $,e went irrt 's:"t':* ciirection before.tiey spendfff;ff I"f cause lt' wi:.i E-rh; ;il; HL?Hi:.T=:, T"#iffi E:.Affi ;-
**.-"=#=",,StF;rl ff:';r:tff ii,:ri;::=: our citizens to have this ccnre brore
scott l4artin - The planning ccxmission did hold a public hearing on this.
counci r'nan IIf,rn - r have a.real concern about just uncier general irpressions, tfieumeolate erfective screening i. ,,. Goni"o=tiv i,.,crui.a on trEge 5 0f the sraffreport. Itees don,e grow ov6rnigirt. ----'"--,
ffi: ffir; I#HLT"'-lLp.lI-t". telr vou *:!-!!:-n-jecr uncierstandins
ptans' trrat-aie l; i;; :? ;3il"fli=T,3*';i. f"?::'L"*.":;;il*#.1t"*"ov.,ners of Dale creen ccnpany. rhey hive *r"Jtrr" ..,e";y;i";Ufi^# they arerandowners in the citv of. crrantrassll-'irr""ii*.ir
.so fert it worthy of issuinq con_dirionar use permirs i" tr," p"J.--rl=;=: Jilii."a is the proc-essiis of black dirt-rhe site $rourd nor b dl*. i;-G" ;;;;I 5i"il*i"q-",J-[r!,ii"g-d? Jiancrng so,or brack dirt. Access ro_nre siLe I;-;;&;J;ri 6r curpi,..ii"I.*,ilI,"-rase orequiprFnt on the site --rla r"-puitJ HffiL: screened area which wourd be inre_dlately south of the existing u..., ..ai. ^rJ" '.rcn"ar,r"" a berm which woul.l crnearound to the ea.st side .etreen tfr. =..JnJli"".r,a Cnlpin Bhd. Ttre barn isintended to be used for rhe -^ir..i"iI.TiLf,ilr." and c-overing of v.hicles aswerl' The house rvourd be used ro. orii."-"pi! which is mrrh tike the Dar.e creenccnpany currenrry uses.
--The
.o:".t"rr"i!-ilritr"*r this operarion in which isarreaoy a basic Land c'ontirnaci6" *ni"n-,-Irruir*, * to do iuch, nodify it. so tl^rwe have an area that we can h,ork in ana tnen iiLsiry the screening naking it noreappropriate so Ehat v,e are nor adversely "ai.;;i"g the i.nage of the city ofChanhasser .
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EE3fiIflHf,ESEN
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX .I47 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
}lEMORANDUM
TO: Chanhassen planningCommission
: :laclta---
:.t. Subntfi€d le ic;ini,:a,.:i -
FROM: Scott A. Martin, Community Development Oirectorfol\t/( / *./
:a,. - e/' _
DATE:
SUBJ:
The above described zoningthe Planning Conmission aton June 27, L984.
July 19, L984
Proposed Zoning Ordinance AmendmentContractor's Yards as a ConditionalDistrict.
*84-2 to allow
Use in the R-1a Zoning
ordinance amendment was initiated bythe request of The Dale Green Company
The Planning Commission discussed this issue during the prepara_tion of the Revised Zoning Ordinance Draft. fhe C6mmission"decided at that time that i11e9a1 and. non-conforming contractingbusinesses known to exist in tie n-1a zoning oistri 6t -str""ia n.accommodated under the new Zoning Ordinance to the extenLg39silfe, as opposed to strict eiforcement of the ord.inance.'rnls ctecrston was made following the review of a ,,non _conf ormi ngand^iIlegaI land use survey,' pr6pared by City Staff in October,1982 (see attached).
Because of the nature of most contracting operations, the mostappropriate method to.allow_contracting 6""In.""u" -i; ;;; )Iningdistrict is as a conditional "". ;;;ii. rhis "pfrou"r,"iiil" tr,uCity.a great deal of discreti"n ii if."-ievtew and approval ofpermit applications, accord.ing to the City ettorn.V ,' .na-prJrria"sthe city vrith a means- to balaice p.i.vaie business interests vriththe need to proLect the general piUti- -interes t .
Since Contractor's yards.may not be appropriate in a1l- locationswithin the R-Ia zoning-Distii"t, it"-Eiiy mo.t retain the abilityto deny a specific apprication u"."a pii."riry upon tne -stanaaras
for the review of Conaitional use p;.;ii" conLained in Section23.05 of the zoning ordinance t =""- "l-f"Jn"a I .
In the case of Contractor I s. yards, conditional use permit appli_cations should involve con s iderat i"n -"i- ttr" foJ-rowing factors:
1. Size and nature of the operation, including the number ofemployees, type and number of pGces of contracting
aile llrr-1hlld io c!uii::l
o,
nhassen Planning Commi ssionIy 19, 1984
Page 2
equipment used in the operation; hours of operation,proposed buildings and land area to be utilized for thebusiness, traffic aenerated by the business etc.
2. Location of the Business in relation to ma jor thorough-fares, residential uses, and other incompatible land uses(either existing or planned) which may be adverselyaffected by such an industrial operation.
3. visibilir of the o ration from adjoining properties and
and relatedpub I lc s treets. Screening of storage yards
business activities will likely be one of the nostimportant factors considered by the City in the review ofsite plans for contracting businesses.
4 Potential environmental effects of the o peration as it
may lmpac t wetl,ands, shoreland areas, flood plains,
hillsides, air and noise quality, etc.
RECOMMENDATION
Should the Planning Commission decide to recommend approval of an
ordinance amendment to a1low Contractor's Yards as a Conditional-
Use in the R-Ia Zoning District, staff recommends that the
Commission adopt a motion recommending that the following
Ianguage be added to the zoning Ordinance:
Add the following language to Section 4 (Ru1es and
Definitions ) :
CONTRACTOR I S YARDS: An area or use of land rthere vehicles,
equtr;ent d-onsEruction materials and supplies commonly
used by building, excavation, roadway construction,
landscaping and similar contractors are stored or serviced.
A contractorrs yard includes both areas of outdoor storage
and areas confined within a completely enclosed building used
in conjunction with a contractorts business.
Aild the following language to Section 5.04 (Uses by
Conditional Use PermiL - R-la Agricultural Residence
District ) :
13. Contractor's Yard
PLANN ING CO!4MISSION RECOIT1MENDATION
The Planning Commission conducted a Public Hearing on this pro-
posed Zoning ordinance Amendment on July 25, 1984. On a motion
by J. Thompson, seconded by M. Thompson, the Commission voted
unanimously to recommend approval of the amendment as recomrnended
by City Staff (see attached minutes).
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,a -tl-Couoci I Mee ting January 985
l.lavor Hamilton - The preferred plan
xestesn ltlost road alignment.
is the one that lras presented tonight rith the
fl
Randy Herran - t{e still need to
Ihat's lrhqt I am rea.l,ly looking
rhatrs preferable. It'E line.
go through those steps anylray, like BiL.l, said.for tonight anyray is some direction, so e idea of
Xavor Hamilton - Any
Counci Irooan t{atson -
Hsvor Haailton - I.Il. make that molion.
Coun ci.l,, on an }{atson I 'll second.
further discussion.
Aye.
- Aye.
Councilman Horn
sections of the
do the neighbors
All in favor say aye.
Councilrom6n Slrensoo
ounci lman Ho.n Aye.
- Aye.
Aye . 0pposed? otion ca!sied.
Counci I man Gev inq
l{6yor Hani I ton
Councilwooan SHenson - I have a question, in thig particular instance I think He
have somethi,nq that's unique but re do have areas y,here these thj.ngs are appLicable
so ie are not saying no, }le a!e not going to have them in Chanhassen but I have tre-
,reodous reservations about this. If there i9 some lray lre can say yes, this is fine
and not establish a precendent but this is a unique situation, I don,t have any
probleD rith this one. I have a psoblem rith aoending the ordinanceg to permit
these lhi.nqs either j,n the R-IA or thE R-l bEcause I think that re don,t knoY, hon He
ale going to be able to regulate the less than seven days, in any case five roonsiith tlio adults, tre could ralk into a beautiful potential boarding roorn situation
and boarding houseg and re have no vray to ragulate it.
Earbara Dacv - If you desiEe that you nould Ii.ke individualized attentioo on each
bed and breakfast situation tre couLd altlend the ordinance to allow bed and breakfasts
as conditional use3 ingtead of pernitted uses. A9 fer as the enforcement questj.on
thet you are having, the reason yhy re picked five rooos is because that matched the
occupancy threshold in the Uniform Building Code. If it's over five then they have
to fieet those extra requi.reEents for a boardi.ng house and rooning house and, there-
fo.e, there is noae fire lrall requireGents and right on doin the Iine.
Counci lyaoman Snen:jon
T
I viould say one to three rould be aIl tight.
- t think most of my conce!ns ,are covered under the
conditional use perlnit. I did have one other concern
in the area knolr about this?
!ecommended
and that ia,
H Barbara Oacv No.
Counci I nan Cevind
2lz.
It's the only dvelling betlreen the railroad tracks and Highlray
ZONING ORDI]"IANCE AMENDMENT TO ALLOII EREAD AND EREAKFAST INNS AS PERMIIIED USES IN
THE R.I.A AGRICULIURAL RESIDENCE DISIRICI AND AS CONDITIONAL U5E5 IN THE R-I SINGLE
FAMILY 0ISTAICI: Harjo!ie Bush ras p!esent to explain her p.oposal to establish a
Bed and BreakfasL esLablishment at 1161 Bluff Creek Drive.
Ho
:.uncrI lleetinq Janucry 7,-12_
rage J, lik
is a unique
'alue to it
:8ea. I th
'.inde!stand
cevino - I kind oF tike the first part of sooe of these conditions on.e fo. i.nstance, must be ot{ner occupied. I kind of like that idea. Thissj,tuation that Hrs. Bush has here. Itrs an old hone, It has higtorj.c. There aEen't many rike it i.n chanhasseo and itrs not a residentialink re shourd treat it as a condition to the R-lA oistrict. I don,trhy there can be no Dore than one employee.
ro e:
:orJncillnan
Counc i lnan Gevino -
and Lould like to
CouncilHont an Watson
I Like the ideE of
drop the R-l i ssue
oaking this
entirely at
farbara lsg - ri. have addressed the o..ner oecupied issue io the definition at theJoLtom of paqe ). I believe the employee issue, re 9ot reguLations froo Iucson,;!izona, to St. pauL to Savannah, Georgia, and that seened to be a coitnon requlre_nent and I think the intent of that is to allox an operation at least one employeeiut not if they are generating more than one employee then it may b6 construed to beletting a little too conmercial.
a condi tional uae unde! ths R_lAthis tire.
Counci lman Hoan Ihat
agtee.
also putg a cap
Ebout that six
oo the uae.
Counci Imao Gevi nn
feeL',
H o,square feet, could lre mske that fou! squa!e
;lar iorie Sush You have to have something for people to find it.
Councilran Horn A lot of people hav6 signs right out lront of their house indi_catinq thei. name.
ZONIIIG ORD I NANC E AMENOI{ENT IO ALLOl{COI.IMERC I AL NURSERIES AS CO ND I I I ONALR-1A DISIRICI:USES I N THE
I
ayor HaDilton moved to approve a zoning o!dinance a,nendment to arr.or bed and b!eak-iast estabr'ishnents as a conditional use in R-lA Agricurtura.r, Residence District,,ith the conditions:
i. The structure meets all UniforD guilding and Fire Code requiremeots.?. The structure meets aLI requirements of the Minnesota Departnent of Health.t. Iro (2) offstreet parking spaces plus one (l) additional space per rentalroo,[ must be provi.ded.4, 0ne non-il.luminated sign oay be erected on the property, not to exceed six(6) square fee! in srze.5- There sharr be no more than one employee in addition to the residents.llotion seconded by Counc.i.lman Gev j.ng. Ih; foiioring voted in favor: MayorHanilton, councirnornan rarson, councirmen Ho"n "na'iuri;;.
';";;";i;or]no ,""n"onvoted no. ilotion carried.
t
il-
Eatba!a Dacv - rhat i9 before you is another zoning ordinance aD€nd,nent. The recoD-nendation of the Planning cofiDi.sgion """ to onry al,lolr rholesale conmercial nur_selies' rhe com','isSion desifed tha! a cLea! aestinction be oade betreen a rholesarecoilne!cial nuasery and a retail com,rercial oursety Hhich Hould deaL direcLly liiththe public. I tried to, upon thei! recolnmendation, do a little lllore .esea!ch onthis topic and stafr has cooe up tiith the definition that you havo before rhi.chstrictry itandateg that the planLs gronn on-site be sold in a lrholeeale t[anner. I:]:: ltl,'!to out that greenhot ses rere not !eco,n'ended by the comnission to berncluded in the.i,r app!ovaI and fqrthe! oi""r""ion ,ith various nursery groiess in a'holesale operati.on g!eenhouseg are nornal "a""""o", staucture to b6gin theseedr'n9si etc. for trees, etc. and start ttren insiOe and then you Dove the plants
:::.:1" on the grorrng range. Hha! you have befo.e you a.e a couple of opti,ons.rhe orrgrnal application lras fo! co,trneacj.al nurse!ies and greenhoussg inctuding l.ho_
l:::::.::: ret6il. rhe pla^nins Comoission "u.or".no.a only corrDercial rholees.le
(ii[
A
EEIf,NHf,SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX I47 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
STAFF REPORT
TO chanhassen Planning CoNnission
FBOM: Jo Ann Olsen, Asst. City Pranner Jqh\p g,E;11
DATE: December 6, L984
SUBJ:zoning Ordj.nance Amendment to Al1ow Bed and Breakfast
Establishments 1) as a Permitted Use in R-lA, Agricultural
Residence District, and 2) as a Conditional Use in R-l ,Single Family Residence District
PLANNING CASE: 84-6 Zoning Ordinance Amendment
GENERAI, INEORMATION
App 1i cant tttar jorie Bush
Rt. 3, Box 72
New Prague, MN 5607I
Requested Action 1) To amend Section 6.02 of the
Zoning Ordinance to allow bed antl
breakfast establishments as a per-
mitted use in the R-1a,
Agricultural Residence District.
2) To amend Section 7.04 of the
Zoning Ordinance to a1low bed and
breakfast esLablishments as a con-
ditional use in the R-I, Single
namily Residence District.
Purpose The applicant is considering
buying the propertY at 1161 Bluff
Creek Drive on the condition that
she can establish a bed and break-
fast establishment at the afore-
mentioned property.
R-la, Agricultural Res i dence
1t6r Bluff creek Drive ' 1'l5 mile
northrl,est of U.S. 2l-2 and L/LO
mile south of the Chicago &
Northwestern RaiLroad ( see
attached location map).
CITYEOF
Existing Zon ing
Locat ion
I
and Breakfast Es tabl i shment
Decem ber 6, 1984
Page 2
I
Size
Exi s t ing
Ad jacent
Iand Use
Land Use and Zoning
West:
Agricultural; R-laAgricultural; R-1aAgricultural , with singlefamily residencei R-laAgricultural , R-Ia
Adopted Comprehensive Plan
a. Land Use Plan:
b. Transportation !
Zoning History
SPEC IAL IN EORMATI ON
Public utilities
ANALYS IS
The site is outside the UrbanService Area and is designatedAgricultural according to the 1990
Land Use PIan.
The street abutting the property
is designated as a loca1 streetand is unpaved. U.S. 212 whichlies I mile south of the propertyis designated as a minor arterial.
On November 19, 1984, the CityCouncil approved a proposal tovacale a 7.9 foot by 34.4 footportion of the existing home whichextends into the Bluff Creek Driveright-of-way (see Attachment #2).
The site iscipal water
serviced
sehrer .
by mun]'-not
and
The applicant is proposing to open a Bed and Breakfast establishmentin a home located at 1161 Bluff Creek Drive. The establishmentof a Bed and Breakfast is not provided for in the zoninjOrdinance, therefore a zoning ordj-nance amendment is neiessary.The property is zoned n-1a, agricultural Residence and the l-andis surrounded by agricultural uses with no other single familyresidences nearby- The property abuts Bluff creek oiive which isunpaved and designated as a locar street. The horne has three (3)floors, including an unfinished basement, and is made of chaskabrick. The land was homesteaded arond 1g65 and the applicantwill be applying for the property to be put on the ttaiionalRegister of Historic Homes.
.91 acres
Single family residential
North :
South :
East:
e
d Breakfast6, 1984
Establi shment
ber
3
Trro
The
(2) persons per rental room .
bed and breakfast must be owner
${o (2) offstreet parking space plus
room to be rented.
Meals shal1 be served only
The bed and breakfast must
There shall be no mor e
fire
than
ri
occupied.
one (1) additional space per
The property has been inspected by the state Fire !,tarshal, the
Chanhassen Public Safety Director and Building Inspector. It wasdetermined that the home met the NFPA Fire and the Uniform Building
Code requirements with the need for only a few minor adjustments (i.e.
smoke alarms, fire extinguishers and railings on the stairway). Theproperty is serviced by a septic tank rrrhich has the capacity to meetthe proposed use.
In researching the regulations of other Bed and Breakfast establish-
ments throughout the United States, several- requirements and zoningregulations were found.. The zoning regulations of Bed and Breakfastestablishments ranged from no requirements to requiring conditional
use permits in residential areas (see Attachments #4, *5 & #6).
The most common requirements were as follows:
l. Three (3) to five (5) rental
breakfast establishments.
rooms allowed within the bed and
2
3
4
codeA1I building and
shall be met.
to residents and overnight guests.
be within the principle structure.
one (l) employee.
requirements for the level of occupancy
Code, adopted
) rental rooms
definition ofbuilding code
exceedinq six
would thenfire and
as:
According to the Uniform Building Code and the NFPA Fire
by the City of Chanhassen, a dwelling with up to five (5
and less than fifteen (15) non-residents faLls under the
a lodging house. A lodging house has the same fire and
requirements as a single family dwel1ing. Any structure
(5) or more rentar rooms is defined as a hotel'/mote1 and
constitute as a commercial use and. have more restrictive
buililing code requirements.
combining,the requirements of the Building anal Fire Codes of
chanhassen with the requirements contmon to Bed and Breakfast
establishments, the Planning staff is defining a Bed and Breakfast
"An owner occupied principle dwelling in which five (5) or Iess
rooms are rented on a nightly basis for a period of less than
seven (7) days. Meals naY or may not be provided to residents and
overnight guests . "
10
5.
6.
7.
8.
t (l
d Breakfast Establi shments
er 6, 1984
e4
Because of the size of lots and distance bet$/een residences in the
R-Ia district, the Planning Staff believes the establishment of a bed
and breakfast in this district will not have an adverse impact on
surrounding properties. Because it wilL be limited to 5 rooms orIess, the nature of the use is such that it is merely a location forovernight lodging and comparable to a single family residence. Anyincrease in traffic and parking would have minimal impact in the R-Iadistrict. Therefore, staff recommends that bed and breakfastestablishments be allowed as a permitted use in the R-Ia district.
the R-Ia District, should be1Section 5.02, permitted Uses in
amended to read.:
4 Bed and Breakfast Establ-i shments
condi tions:sub ject to the following
I
3.
Sec t ion
amende d
The structure meets
reguirements.
all Uniform Building and Fire Code
The structure meets allDepartmeot of Health.
requirements of the Minnesota
Tr^ro (2) offstreet parking spaces plus onespace per rental room must be provided.
One non-illuminated sign maynot to exceed six (5) sguare
(1) addi tional
be erected on thefeet in si ze.
property,
more than one employee in addition to5?here sha11 be nothe residents. tl
2 7.04, Conditional Uses, in the R-1 Districts should beto read:
13. Bed and Breakfast Establi shmen ts ,'
Bed and breakfast establishments may also occur in the R-1 , Singlenamily Residence Districts. In these cases, a bed and breakfast might
have a greater impact on surrounding properties. For this reason,staff recommends bed and breakfast establishments in the R-1 Districtbe allowed as a conditional use. This a1lows each case to be con-sidered separately and any conditions deemed necessary can beincluded. Applicants for a bed and breakfast in an R-l District wouldhave to prepare a detailed site plan as part of the conditional useprocess.
RECOMI\,IENDAT I ON
The Planning staff recorunend.s the planning Commission adopt thefollowing motion:
"The Planning Commission recommends approval of Zoning OrdinanceAnendment #84-6 to amend the Zoning Ordinance as follows:
Breakfast
6, 1984
0
Establi shments
t
mb
d
ere
9e5
3. Section 4.02, Definitions, should be amended to read:
PLANNING COMMISSION ACTION
STAFF UPDATE
Section 6.02, Permitted Uses
amended to read:
dwelling in which five (5) or lessbasis for a period of less thanmay not be provided to residents and
to recommend
J. Thompson,
Albee and !4.
in the R-la District, should be
rAn owner occupied principle
rooms are rented on a nightlyseven (7) days. Meals may orovernight guests.',
On a motion by J. Thompson and seconded by Merzapproval of the amendment as staff recommended.Merz, Conrad, Ryan and Noziska voted in favor.Thompson were opposed.
on December 12, 1984, the planning commission approved to amend theZoning Ordinance allowing Bed and Breakfast EstaLlishments as per-mitted uses in R-la Districts $rith the following conditions:
I
4 Bed and Breakfast Establi shments
condi t.ions :
subject to the following
The structure meets aLl
requirements.Uniform Building and Fire Code
The structure meets all
Department of Hea]th.
requirements of the Minnesota
Two (2) offstreet parking spaces plus one (1) additional
space per rental room must be provideal.
1
2
3
4
5
One non-illuminated si.gn maynot to exceed six (6) square
be erected onfeet in size.
the property,
There shall be nothe residents. "
more than one employee in addition to
The Planning Conmission also approved to amend the Zoning Ord.inance to
a11or^, Bed and Breakfast Establishments as conditional uses in the R-IDistricts. No specific conditions were recommended by staff toinclude in the R-1 District, as was done in the R-la, in order toa11ow the city flexibility during review of an application. the
Commission, while approving staff's reco(unendation, directed staff toinvestigate and recommend possible criteria for the R-1 District. TheCouncil could adopt the following language amending Section 7.04Conditional Uses, in the R-I Districts of the Zoning Ordinance to
read. :
it
er
Breakfast Establishments6, r984
6
13. Bed and Breakfast Establishmeots
to the following conditions:
I
2
including but not limited
The structure meets aI1
Department of Health.
requirements of the Minnesota
5. There shall be nothe residents . "
more than one employee in addition to
The Planning Cornmission also requested staff to investigate theappropriateness of allowing Bed and Breakfast Establishments in
Business/Comrnerc ial Districts. No cases of such zoning has yet beenfound and staff is further investigating this subject.
REPORT ATTACHMENTS
I
2
3
4
5
6
7I
Location of proposed Bed and BreakfastPhotographs of proposed siteCity Council minutes dated November 19, 1984
PAS memo, Bed and Breakfast, dated October, L9g2Zoning Nelvs, Bed and Breakfast Inns, dated April, 19g4Presentation to City planning Commission, Cily of St.Bed and Breakfast Zoning Text Amendment, datea May 2I ,Planning Commission minutes dated December 12, I9A4Letter from Marjorie Bush, appLicant
Paul,
r984
reg ardi ng
1. The structure meets all Uniform Builtling and Fire Coderequirements.
3. Two (2) offstreet parking spaces plus one (I) additional
space per rental room must be provided.
4. One non-illuminated sign may be erected on the property,not to exceed six (6) square feet in size.
132 O RElAtt,- NUv-'brzt72
Cily Counci 1 t4eeti.ng _ August 3, :_:gll
o
t-
.I
' Eii"ri':i',i"Ts ,"T',.ffJ#TJri;.:i',1.":1?.ri:'sl resardins a requesr by aprorErtv rhar hersiooxrns ,i-i; trrJ il";Ti"11r.T"Jr:*# tr=rtr::" -
west on r}t 5 v,rhich is,-1a9i:r3f C.."" ,i"-.-Sr? As you kno$, Dave Luse, he$'ants to move to chaska or to a differeni-io""tr.oo because he doesnrt haveenough room here' conse-quently t* r,J t"rr; ro Jay Kronick who is herewith us rhis evenino- .rjy f ivls i.'e"riil";", Maryland. qErates abusiness in washirqion o.c
".n- r*ii-rix.,1l=;rr" Eo Minnesora ard have anursery so we have d iscussed ttris ant;;.; tsrrF to Jay many times aboutit ard we wanred ro .iu:l have . di;;"i;; ;iti, tt" councir to see if rhe
[ffi ' l#il'#.ffr#]:"i".*;:jg]:i. h*ilce or chans i ng Eh.
- ioii ng to
he can speak i.i r,i*"Err in u ^inui.ri; ir'ffJ.'v*,rirdnilH B llirffi-ffiproperty. lb would like to grow his ;"t"rl;i" on. the property ard seII themon the pro;Erty. Before he *or". J..i -iiai*'"
-tl,"us
hr' i t'm i;il ;;";..T i a". -i
r
"i,. *i"J,,.
i,, t":fr ,;3 ff J.:ffiI,.i ;"prolErty so he doesn,r 1It -gf q ;;;"';il
".-pr.u". of protrErry where hecan't rearisricalty selt off oi. -;;; ;;; -"i'_u.*
has a whotesaleotrErarion and he has t r:cks and *;;;.i;; i"n'ana out of rhere each day buton a wholesar'e basis' g* t1Y.r."- [.i,t lii nil'materia]s ard rhev haur rhemout for bis iobs. Jav's _wourd u. *or"...i ii"rii" .._i"n"; ;Jr*,JH:*your shurbs for your 'yard or v.ri i"iiiijr.l'1. you. bedd ing plants in thesprrng artd would be tnat tlpe of t .iii"-". dere woutd need to be somelmprovement to the access ii we were t af"*'" burch of use on thatproperty. Both qetting .rn and. getting .;i;;j Jay hasn,t Errsued thatturther because he wanied t" ri.ii.i g'"i8"-'iLri.g from the councir as Eowhere we might stand on consideiatio,i .r iiiila.* so Jay would you rike tomake any addi tional coments?
Jay l(ronick: Ihanks for- the opportuni ty to €peak before. you this evening.I think Tom has qiven vou a good overlJf of rifrac_ f ,m thinking of doingthere. However, -r wouid. nor -inLni -to;;;;-.ii or my own nursery srock. rthink that would be bring a ror of it lil-" ri-i".t a r.ot of it initiauy,rar.srng nursery stock tf,)aes y.u." und ii," =o."tf,ing i ".rfa
-.a*i #;arnto right away but whether it wourd b"-ty".;='or 5 years or r0 before thave anythinq availabre- rt.3 r g.i.;*;.i r,,=?i-.r," up for quesrion ar thi.spoint. The lot is about .a 5 acie p...ti.-m i'irouro propos using at the[?T "i1T"" *;H:...;.:,1 operati'on ."a tr,.r woura G *," p.it-ri"iiiiq *
res i dence il - ;;; ;"i,. y :i:,i :_i!:,3i" fi IIi; ;?:. .T.:." li#;lj,ii{' ".greenhouses back there at the lack ".n 6i tf. i.op..ay. As far as thephysical structures on the property, I don,t rially. anticipate any majorcharges. The old chanhassei- niir.6ja o.p"i-ii-ln ..= property now arrl ifitts a suitabre buirdino, code wise .ni-'..-r..ti and meets my needs as werlr wourd be interested in simpry.*o"inj- it "il".r to tn" road ard usinq thatas a sales area and perhaps ,oo-urng on6 .i tr,"*ii*"r,ouses t]4pe structires ormaybe puttirg anoEher long bur r,ni nor tuf Xi*itort i..i."!i"g "ih""pivl t""fuse. of the protrErry. rhe tuildings il;;;';;e would remain perhaps jusEa lrttle bit of shuffling arourd on the site "o-n"r=t.nt with EIre Iocat
5q
ffi
REC,ARDING WHOLESALE/RETAIL NURSERIES IN THE RURAL AREA, MAYOR
L
t
\}r
18n-la
City @uncil l,leeting - August 3, L}BT
O
I
ordinances ard so forth. r think Tom mentiond that the nature of thetraffic wourd be different than what is presently on that site. certainly rwould acknowredge the need to have a vehicle or t$ro to move materials arourdbut something like what. is existing on the site at present. rhe trafficthat I would anticipate wourf b highly seasonal foi one. In the springcgltair_rly. Eimarily on w.eekends arxl certainly access from the highwaywhich is a busy one ard r know you've got some concerns ard prans aown- theroad, the traffic wourd move -into a parking area on tJ:e property and tJ:eysrould not be movirg arr arourd the property as r s€e iu t wouid interxi toIive on the property. Itrere is a resiaence there arri that needsimprovements which r wourd make once r was assured of being able to proceedwith this ard that,s my intent to live ard work on the sam6 parcel.
Mayor Hamirton: r asked Jay not to bring any slEcific prans. He's dor* afew sketches that rrve seen but r said rearri ii,s a queition of whether ornot the councir would like to see or auow retail saL& on that parcei.- wewould be kind of getting ahead of ourselves. If Jay !,rere to heai somefavorable comments that he thought we might be able to have some retairsales there then te would come back and lhow us how he would .onrigu.u-thuproperty ard charge the bui ldi.ngs arourd.
Councilman Ceving: I think my co*nent would be, some time ago we took DaveLuse to crurt ard negotiatd a settlement whereby he c.ouId sLy on thatproperty for 10 years. rhe r0 years will be up in r believe r-sgs ana atthat time we were hoping that our develognent ot tne city wouia-L ,rro,ri'g tothe west and that there wourd be commerclal development -probably firting inthat area to the west of take Ann ard further west even than that but thatwas why we agreed on a 10 year per iod so r don't know how i perionaiiyleerabout amerding zonirg ard -looking Iong term. I suspect onc€ you moved inthere your intention would be to be in the whoresale/retail &ee businessfor quite a long time.
Jay Kronick: I think it would be the retail end of it and not thewholesale. I would not interd to sal-e wholesale. There are certainlyenough growers in the area who are doing that kind of thing .nJ-rrrur^.'i .u"the market need in this area would basiJally be a retail o!eration.--- -
Councilman Geving: Like a Etankrs.
Jay Kronick: r make a distinction from Etank's in that it wouldn't be quiteon the scale, different quality.
Courcilman ceving: yourre.talking more about landscaping tlpe trees likethey have now out there with the Blue Sp.u"".i--
Jay Kronick: you talk big. trees and then you start tatking about heavyequipment and r'm rooking in more the types or trrirqs no*.""n"i= "- 16*.out and buy themselves. plants in 5 gallon contaiiers. Bedd inq E;";All ttle gardenirg suppl ies.
Councilman Geving: Who owns that prolErty directly r./est? Ooes aoldrodyknow? where you see al1 these trees? ts-thai Gore $rho has put arl those
Ir--
5l
,o
City Council t4eeting - August 3, I9g7
trees in?
I,layor Hamilton: yes.
Counci lman Geving: I don't know.or anybody else could look at this
How is it zoned now?
counc_ilman Geving: okay, so tie area wourd be confined to just the basicDave Luse property frcrn the Ray Kerbers over to core's prop6rty finei:-
Jay Kronick: Yes.
I donrt know how tie planning Commissionin terms of long term plans for the City.
Barbara Dacy: Itrs zoned RR.
c-ouncilman Geving: But wasort it our pran though Barb that someday tlatr,rould probably be cronmercial, along there?
Barbara Dacy: t€t me just say that t}Ie RR district was created, it.sboundary was created consistent with the bourdary of the service area of thetake Ann rnterceptor knowing tl.at that area wourd be served and that therevrould be residentiar develoSxnent. There h:as not been specific prans oiconsideration that r'm aw_are- 9f by the pranning comm iss-ion in rioxing itwhat ty[ES of lard uses should occur where. rri order to accomodate ihetlzpe of retail use that is bei.ng proposed, a zoning ordinance amendment fora garden center !.,ould have to be proposed in the nn district.
Councilman Bo).t: Dale, I'm amazed at your memory about something thathappens. so long ago. If you,re lookirg at 1995, I think what I liear Dalesaying is that in 1995 sornething drmaiicarry different could happen to tnatpiecre of proprty. Is that righa?
Councilman Ceving: yes.
councilman Boyt: so r gather regardless of our feeling about whether thisis a retail possibility right now that everything chang-es 7 years down theroad.
Jay f.ronick: If l4r. Luse continues to own the prolErty.
Rarbara Dacy: The Eerms of the settlemenE agreemenE is that. it can continuethe following described busi.ness operation by the subject property untiiJanuary 1, 1995 or untir the property is sord, whichever first occurs- Nor^rrarriscaping contractor yards are a conditional use in the A-2 district butagain, contractor yards are not corditional use in the RR nor the gardencenter t$)e of usage v;hich he is proposing.
Counci lman Boyt: I think we,ve seen in Eden prairie that a garden centerholds.a piece of ground until it becomes too valuable and th6n lou get ashoppinq center there or $rhatever. We're talking about this being riext topossibly single family residential of some sort, is that right? fol" ..y=conmerciaL develolment but iErs currently zoned for that kird of thing.
t
52
a
I
t
', {-\>-roooo
I
Barbara Dacy: It's for large lot.
Counci lman Bol't: Iarge lot but not cqrmercial.
Barbara Dacy: As an interim basis until the take Ann rnterceptor can behooked into.
Mayor Hamilton: r think you need to consider, it sits on rH 5 and 11{ 5 isgoing to be widened sorneday ard that's ttre tlpe of develo[xneni tirut -itiror=
along the highway is generally not residentG-I right on d.," t igt,,.y.---
Councilman Bolt: Irm pleased to hear you say that TH 5 is going to beyldened someday. r think we're movingi in tnl right directi6n. -r ,ooia "o..rike to hear the issues flushed out on this thirg. r think the pranningcommission is the prace tl't does that. r rearry have no reer toi ttrebackgrourd here. I trust !,rhat Dale has said so i can't give you mucfr-insight about lJtere I would cqne down. rt r s an interest-ing *d;.----
Jay Kronick: Yourre concernd that I move in there, I rdork the property for5 to 10 years and larxl values jump ard r move out arrl put ln a iiroipinicenter?
@uncilman Boyt: tdo, that's. really..not my- concern. Itrat I,m okay with. Myconcern is right, the situation as it stards right now ard is thii somethinithat \^re $rant to do as a city. Actually I don'i know.
Councilman Johnson: I have. thought personally about this area ard future,if and when_ other major nighwayj are buift, ii what we,re ptanninq ----
reasonabr-e for that area ard rve always thought that we s-houLd b6 rookingbetter at what should be going in ther-e. rhe -pryzmus area and Lhese otherareas, he's _trying to get a cofiunercial use into the RR, or not hers acrossEne sEreer trom RR. tb's off in A_2 again but I personally donrt have a Lotof, r think it's a reasonabre use on a -maj or highway. zuti garae' centerup on Galpin or off of 67th- Street or rake tucy- Roa6, o*,". piu.* ,iliiinthe RR districr I think $/9utg n9t be appropriale but off ot [f= *"loi---'highway there, r think rerail is more;;p.:p;l;!". rhere would be somecosts r believe in putting. a-tum rane -om irg on so the roads aren't-siowingdown and stopping on TH 5 before turning in.
Jay Kronick: I had that problem myself when I'm trying to visit theproIErty.
Councilman Johnson: yes, I got rear ended less than a year ago so Irm verycautious about places where you slor^, down in front of $pfe ,ii,o -u." goirrgfast- My EErsonar feer ing ii trrat ,tor" ui". .rong th 5 should be rookedat as to what the near term _ard rong term uses shoirld be. not """.=iiiiryjust.this one protrErty or if we a" i-,""" I
"-nung" to arrow retail businesses$rithin RR districts, that that should be confiriea only to RR districts r,rithaccess. to certain tt/pes of roads so we donrt get a gaiden center oi-a "
convenience store or whatever out on take rr:ci noad-or 6Ttl. street oiTanadoona or someplace like that. rhat's che way r feel. r think it,sappropriaEe at thar area but I agree with Bi1l, i tninX tte pflnnirq - -
City Council tGeting - August 3,L987
,
,l
<1
o oCity Council l4eeting - August 3, 1gg7
Conmission is a good place to look at that.
courrc_i rman ceving: r think eventuarly werre going to have a strip all theway from downtown Chanhassen to tH 41. prettt $rell filleal in witicommercial development. small businesses, offices, whatever. r just thinkitrs going to be a naturar progression. Maybe it wirl work out frdm TH 4rard work backwards, r donrt knovJ but r see that whore corridor as beingbuilt eventually.
Mayor tlamilton: rhatrs true and r like the idea of having a garden store
ir.t town, as Jay kno$rs. We doo,t have a nursery here. We
-t.ve to go
-=o."
distance to buy prant materiars and prants .nd read i.,g prants and !".iyit ingin the sprirg ard r certainly rike to see one in town,- especiarry wherl theperson wtto is going to olErate it is going to rive in youl town iight on tJeproperty. There is also the possibility, if the @uncil or the elinningcommission were not to want to see retiil sales off of there, r think Jiyhas other option to stiu do some growing there ard to live there.ard iohave another location for his retail.
Jay Kronick: Obviously it increases cost to operate tr,,Jo sites at once.
councirman Geving: rt might be a better. alternative though Jay for a shortterm operation. Short term, Ilm always speakirg in terms -of
1O yeu.s.
Mayor llamilton: I guess it's hard to tell the way the town is growing sofast how quickly we're goi.ng to develop tbe area out there. The MUsA-Iinehas to change before we can do anything with it and it's supposed to be theyeax 2400. Whether or not it goes that long, hrtro knovrs. We continue to tryand change that but right no$, it doesn't look too promising but I thinkthatrs a nice use for that lard. He would just be growing plant materialsand plants there, I think it's a nice use of the land.
Jay Kronick: It consistent with the existing use of tt}3 lard.
Counci Iman Geving: It is consistent but I think Bill it right on the head,it's just like Dale Green arxl some of the others that werve !een, when theirprolErties became so valuable to them, it was easier to selL and put a bankbuirdirq in ard move on further west Lhan it was to continue in the nurserybusiness- on the short term, as long as you understand that's the economicsof it ard _someway you could come in, 5 yeJrs from now ard say I,m gettingout of this business, I,ve just moved out. Irm moving onto Cologne.
Councilman Johnson: Could I ask you a question, the lawsuit that youreferred to earlier, what was the basis and what were we trying to stop orprevent? Were we tryirg to prevent retail or what?
@uncilman Ceving: We were trying to prevent the Dave Irse operation from
ex i stence.
Barbara Dacy: At that time contractor,s 14rds were not a [Ermitted use, orI should say a corditional use.t
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54
L
oo
Mayor Hamilton: Eve Luse is, in my opinion a hell of a nice guy and hejust kird of goes along. He's kird of like Etryanus only not as outspoken.lhe rules alply to everldcody else except him and he was a council peison inVictoria for a number of years. I.le started his otEration here ard he just
kind of kept growing with it arxi we would teII him he can,t do it and f,e
yould say oh, okay. The next time you went out there he grew some more soit just kind of drifted on and it got cut of hand ard we -ended up taking himto crcurt a few times. He really is a heck of a nice 9uy, he just cluldnrtstop growing was hi.s problem. tF had a good business and it wis going likecxazy. It still is. I donrt know if that helped you a lot Jay. I h;dholed we would get more specific yes or no. When does the elanning
Conmission meet again Barbara?
Councilman Geving: IE had a different se! of rules too.
Balbara Dacy: lE tEsn't made application.
IEyor Hanil ton: I just asked you when the planning Cormission met.
Barbara Dacy: the secorri ard fourth l&dnesda)'s of every mooth.
lhyor HamiLton: I was wondering what date that was.
Councilman Johnson: Can they consider the same way we considered it?Informally discuss it without an application to give Jay a feel?
Barbara Dacy: yes.
Uayor Hamilton: Jay is going to be here for a couple of weeks so you mayhave the opportunity to get on the agerda ard just discuss iE with them arxlget their feeJ- ings also.
DISCUSSION OE PROPERTY ON THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OE TH 7 Al\D TH -dl iL\YOR
}IAMI LTON.< /-''t I
4N,-Mayor ttamilton: this is a piece of prolErty th3t .re've lccked aE a fewtimes previously at the Council,. The applicant would liile to ievelop theprolErty and the homeowners in tJre area continue to fight ..jre recail
development of the property, in fact, aLmost any i=velolnenE of theprotErty. So I had Eold Tom Wartman and ToCd ,Ilionpson etf,E ..{e would behaptr:;'r to tEve the C.ouncil give their vier.rs cn thf,E :ntsrsecticn .,.r.. -^l^time to see if there is any sencimenE f3r ret.ril ;iic:-l tle,,, are ;;;;:i:rrhat seems to me ro b-- rh.. reason,rbl.-- x:ry t: .i--...: icp -ir;;-:";;_:.:'"ff":t"n,
prgpelEy is currentl./ zoncrJ i:rin;rrr I..' i:r c::r:n..r".ri ,.rr;;;i;;'i:
"i;i".buildiryjs arfl ot::.-r ::u:ji) :;iru--tur!s. ..:: .j:_._.1 :)r,-,:in very ccqr ::n.ror ,.. ,,,:i-..1-, Ir:]j,,;,,- ,;r; j':,,:'-1:.1-::^:t T*ket is not
i,'Jt .'i::;',,,r:. r'. ,', ;'; : :::; :,li ;f ', ;: ":0.-.r .1.
j1,.':: i::+'?H= rT:LlU:Lurlu:n:,; .;.;.,',r;; :,,r.., ,,, ,-',r. ",,..,. ;; ir;1:il il:i:;H$Tl:..do!.s:r': ::!r:n l) r::!r ,:: :ri .r .......r.,, :Jaj lir:.:.; tc L:o ,and,.Irm sure ii doesn,t fortl'.':a u'r.:.:r. ,.) I ::.rl .1r:.;c t:li i'_-:i tittrE'r. ,^.or r.u dlscuss it again ard I
L
55
187 -
City C-ounci I }4eeting - August 3, 1987
1
:JUncrl Yeeting January 7,1e8a
I li,ke the idea of
d rop the R-I issue
o
:iuncil1ran Gevinq - I kind of Like the first part of sone of these condj.tions oo.e fo! instance r must be o|rner occupied. I kind of like th6t idea, Ihj.ssituation that rs. Bush has here. It's an oId hone. It has historic' There aren't nany Iike it i,n Chanhassen and itrs not a residentialink "re shoul'd treat it as a condition to the R-lA Distri.ct. I don,trhy there can be no nore than one empLoyee.
33'ba'a Qs-gr - l{e have addressed the o,.ner occupied issue in the definition at theJoatoo oi page l. I believe the enployee issue, lre got regulations F!om Tucson,;Eizona, to St. Paul to Savannah, Georgia, and that seemed to be a common requi!e_nenl and I think the j.ntent of that j.s to altow an operation at Least one empLoyeeJut not if they are geneEati.ng oore than one emproyee then it may be const!ued to be,letting a lj,ttle too conmercial.
Councilnan Cevino -
and I rould like to
Counci Ivooao l{atson
Councilman Horn That
agfee.
also puts a cap
about that six
=
iE-.I
I
maki ng this
en ti re 1y at
a condi tional use unde ! the R_lAthi s time.
on the use.
squqre feet, could |,e make that four squa!eCounci Inan Gevino
feet?
How
;lar jorie g ush
,:ouncilran Horn
You have to have something for peop.Le to find it.
A lot of people have signs right out Front of their house indi_caCing thej. r name.
ZONING ORO I NANCE AHEND I{EN T TO ALLOl{ CO}.IMERCIAL NURSERIES AS CONDITIONAL USES IN IHE
R - I A D I S IR I C I :
B"beaa 0acv - Hhat is before you i.s anothea zoning o!dioance amendment. The recoflr-..rendation of the PIanoi.ng Commission ras to onLy allol{ r,.holesale eommercial. nur_series. The commrssion desired thaL a clear destinccion be Inade betreen a Hholesa.Leconmercial nurseay and a reLail commercial nursery xhich 1.orJId deal directly lri th
ih. orUti". I tried to, upon thei. recommendatj,on, do a little ftore resea!ch onthis topi.c and staff has come up nith the definition that you have belore rhich'rtcrctly oandates that the plants gro,rn on-site be sold j.n a lrhoresare nanner. Ialso pornted out Lhat greeohouses lrere not aeconmended by the commission to beIncluded in their opprova]. and further discusgi.on ],i th various nuEsery grolrers in arholesale operation greenhouses are notDsI accessory gtructure to beg.i.n theceedlngs' etc. for Lrees, etc. a^d sLart them _inside and then you move the pfantg'lr'tsrde on the grotirng cange. What you have before you are a couple of opLions.r ne ollglnal application v.as for commercial nuase!ies and greenhouses including rho-lesELe and retei.l. The planning Comnission !ecofi ended only comnercisl ihoLeselaiutse!r.rs.
E
irage J, lik
ls J unique
'aIue to i,t
i.ea. I th
'-'noerstand
-12-
lrayor Heoilton moved to approve a zonj.ng ordinance amendment to alloH bed and bteak_iast establ,ishneots as a cooditiooal use in R-lA Agricul,tural Residence District.ri th the condi tions:
i. The strucLure meets aIl Uniforo Building and Fire Code requirements.2- The structure oeets arr requirements of the Minnesota Department of Hea-LLh.t. Ttro (2) offgtreet parking spaces plus one (l) additional space per rental
room must be proyided.
4. 0ne non-iLluminated sign may be erected on the property, not to exceed six(5) square feeL in size.
5. There shaLl be no more than one employee in addition to the residents.Ilotion seconded by Counciloan Geving. The followinq voted in favor: MayorHaDiltoni councillroman riatson, councilmen Horn and ceving. council.,.oman snensonvoted no. Moti.on carried,
H
o o -11-Counci L Neeting January
CouncilHoman Iatson - l{ha t they wao t is strictly a wholesale?
l
larbora Dacy - Yes. The applicant,
norever, in researching this ty pe of
nurseaies can inCI ude l,rholesale and
things?
Hark VanHoff
his
use
intention
oadi.nances
was a rhoLesaLe,
usually coomercial
ftom the standpoint of
has already 9ot a plan
particular
in zoning
3
Councilwoman l{atson There is .etai1 mentioned oo this application.
Barbara Dacv Mr. VanHolf is here and he can address you.
Mark vanHoff - I rould like to only say this, that rhen re visited Hj,th Lhe planning
Comnission they Yere havj.ng a real hard time conceptualizing holr we could },holegale
and not retair. A9 I vi.sited '{ith Barb there is a rear easy ray to get around thatin the nurse!y industry and itrs very coDmon and that i,s you require you! cLient to
h6ve a nu.seryman's Iicense. Thatrs very standard in th9 indugtry. It rouLd be a.equi!ement of ours since both Jin and I a!e currently gelling nursery gtock toretailers and landscapers. To p.otect our selling image and reputation re canrtvery rrell compete !rith the people re are sel,Iing. 0ur operation lrould not be aHalla type nursery. It would not be a Natural G!een type landscape yard. It rould
be Iike a Hartmano Tree Farm if you are familiar rith that rhe.e the product i9gro'rn in the ground. As alluded to by 8a.b,s comnent, it,s an agricultuEal program.
I nould thj,nk it xould behoove the are€ to have a c!op that instead of being har-
vested on an annual basj.s i.s harvested on every four or five year cycle. you haveless equipment around. You have ress fertilize! appricatioa. you have less noise.
You have rtlore aesthetic produc! in the ground.
Counci lnoman l{atson Holr much truck traffic trould you project that l{ould be
generated by your busj,ness?
llark vanHoff - Cutrently, on just a rough estimate, there is probably 10 qarden cen-ters 1n the L{in City area. fhere are probably another a! the most 100 licensedlandscapers of rhich as they are currently doing business with renhoLesalers, rnaybecone io on a once every tro eek basj,s. They come in and pick up their products fora landscape job, the go out and do their job. I can,t reall.y ansrer tha! questionother than you a!e looking at naybe seven or eight customers dropping in a day.
Councildoman l{atsoo
retail.
You don't do any storage of black dirt or any of those kind of
you diq the
H6 needs the
- There ,rould probably be black
t!ees. fhe cus tooer that would
product to put in the ground.
dirt
come
only
to us sold.
Counci li!an
of buj.l.ding
be a sales
particu.l,ar
Gevine - I need to knor more about the stor6qe of vehicl,es and rhat kindyou might put up. I unde.sLood From lrhat I have read that there wou ldbuilding. Could you describe sooe of the buildings thst xill qo on thispiece oF property?
H
Hark vanHofr - currently ' the property that we are looking at has ade.quate bur,rdinqsfor the entire opeEation. That sares building came out of a quegtion Eegardi,ng howare you goinq to sell your product. v{hat He aae going to havs to have a salebuildi.nq. lihat i,t is crr.senLly is the hone. It ,oul.d be an office whete peop.l,et,ould check in and solicit the order, go out, fill the order and then leave.Curre.ltIy the.e is a house. Ihese i9 a brick, I believe it ras an old milk shedused ss a garage noH that can be adequately used as a bui:.dinq for a sal,es office.rhere is a barn and there is three storage qarages xhich courd very easir.y take ca!eof alI of the equipment.
1935
January llu,
- I donrt see ouch
qoes on. Jhey have
off quite as o Ften.
had
the
d i f feaence in
the same type
I thi.nk i.t's
a
this operat.ioo and anyof machinery. In fact
a perfectly acceptable
aouncrl. $ee t ing
aounciln6n Hoan
)peration that
:rke your crop
i_o r ghat area.
-l4-
other fa rn
you may not
type of use
'icuncilrrooen
i certainly n
or hav ing it
d 11. knol{ that
concerned. T
!ain Lha t roa
swenson - I think Dare covered pretty ,,rerr coverecr ne coocerns ,,hich isouldnrt irant to see a fot of equipnent sitting around out in the yardlook like a cont!actor,s yard. I am also verf muctr concerned and youHighway 10I Leaves somethj,nq to be desired as far as the pavement ishe State has qiven us no j.ndication thEt they BiIl do anything to Eaj.n_d. I am csnggl6gd with heavy eguipment going over that road,
Councilman
coofie!ciaI
C ounci lman
l,llatson and
Horn rnoved to approve the zoniog ordinance amendment to allor l,hoLesal.enurse!ies as a conditional use io the R_lA District. Motion seconded byGevi.ng. The folloring voted in favor3 Mayor Hamilton, CouncilromenSrenson, Counci.lmen Horn and Geving. No negatj,ve votes. Hotion carried.
i,I:.{
H
REVIE'd REOUES I FOR PROPO
Barbara 0""" - auro;l;:t"t*"'i5#"###lr#f.'rhe HTc ,pr-out Advisoryccnilittee is proposing to send out to a list of transit consultants to generate someiesponse on r'ocal transit systeo in chanhassenr chaska, Eden prairie,
"io 5h"top"uarea' r am bringing this to your attention just as the other membets of the connit-tee are, so that you are aHare of this comnitteers activities and that you act toaccept and approve the draFt as propoged.
ilayor Haoilton moved to accept and
:ouncil'{oman Watson. The folloring
:{atson and Swenson, Councilmen Horn
as proposed. Motion seconded by
Mayor HamiLton, CounciLwomen
negative vote9. Motion carried.
approve the draft
voted in favot:
and Geving. No
3a'bara Q3S: - M". 1{ej.dnet and Mr. Anderson nade a Dequest to redesign the dol,rnto|{n
':ign that the city has at the corner of Hiqhways 5 and 10r.. city stafF ,rent ahead:ind asked for proposars fEom six sign compani.es and rre have three responses. rhe,'Jordqu.i.st Sign Company, I stilL haveort !eceived thei. proposaL yet. Horevet, whatstaff is recommending is that a special committee of any nuDber of Council membersand inembers of the chanber and these proposals reviered and a !ecofiDendation nrade tocouncil as to go ahead and try to redesiqn the sign or reave it alone or exprore theva!ious options. Their main concern is as Mr. Anderson said, a lot of drnne. theatrecustooers are getting rost. They feer there courd be better signaqe to the doy,ntornarea and the existing sign only has ooe si.de of copy so a redesign may appeatfeasible.
Mavor Hami I ton
g
this seei ng as holr
thought thst the
fun c Li on of that
would get a Littl.e
rea 1I y for Chanber
more active i.n
members.
Chamber
si gn is
Earbara Qj!]L - Ihe have indicated they rill do cost shari.ng.
i'lavor Hanrlton - I had talked wj,th them and said you ought to run this throughChambe. and get some ideas fron the Chanber people. AFter a.LL this sign is tosent the businesses and they should be moae involved than us really. I donrt'lnvbodv from the councit needs to be on that commi.ttee but it r{ourd certainfyre Lhat there should be a li ttle more imaqination shol{n.
the
rePfe-
think
seem to
,il
E
DOIiNTOIiN SICN REOUEST:
Gevinrt - Personally, I would be just as pfeased lrith a nice sign rith s
lli::::":. loqo and it says ,,'relcooe ro Chanhassen,, as anything else. Let,s qer thet.nrriher involved in this one.
((
)
(
P lann i ng
December
Page 5
2. Section
amended
Commission Minutes
L2, 1984
7.04, Conditional Uses, in the R-1 Districts shoulcl beto read:
13. Bed and Breakfast Establishments"
3 Section 4.02, Definitions, should be amended to read:
"An owner occupied principle dwelling in which five (5) or less
rooms are rented on a nightly basis for a period of less than
seven (7) days. Meals nury or may not be provided to residents andovernight guests." .i'...
J. Thompson, lqerz, Conrad, Ryan and Noziska voted in favor.Albee and M. Thompson opposed. Motion carried.
M. Thompson and Albee felt that there were other zones and rami-fications that have not yeL been considered. The changing of theordinance is much broader than just the residenLial disLricts.
ublic Hearin Zonin Ordinance Amendment Re uest #8 4- 7 to al Lor^,
colluner c a1 nurseries as cond tona uses rnIt1 the R-l-aAgricultural R esr dence District, Mark VanHoff,app 1i cant
{
Public Present
Mark vanHoff appl i can t
Dacy stated that the applicant is requesting a zoning ordinance
amendment to include commercial nurseries in the R-la district.
She stated that the ordinance now provides for greenhouses as anaccessory use to a private residential use and prohibits such ause as a principal use of land. She also noted that there was noprovision for a wholesale or retail nursery where goods are soldon the premiese and retail traffic is generated. She stated thatbecause of these provisions llal1a Nursery and the Holasekgreenhouse are considered. non-crcnforming uses. She stated thatcommercial nursery activities may include grovring ranges,greenhouses, a sales building and accessory buildings. Shestated that by allorring conrnercial nurseries as conditional usesthis would require site plan review with a public hearing processwhich would give the City the opportunity to impose appropiiateconditions on the site plan.
Mark VanHoff stated that this is a cash crop meaning it wouliltake less equipment to maintain it and that it would be less ofan eye sore in that it there would be no manure or fertilizers.He stated that it takes from 4 to 5 years to harvest it. He alsostated that he was not going to retail, it would be a growingnursery, and shipped out and sold when the crop was maiure.
Noziska moved, seconded by albee to close the public hearing.
fiflftofkl{ eor +{
dIt
(
Ryan asked what type
operation .
of equipment would be used in this type of
Jim wilson, a partner of Mark VanHoff, stated that he felt it wasvery unusual that they have to go through this process. Ilestated that instead of growing corn, beans or hay they would begrowing trees. Ee stated that basically the equipmenl used wouldbe tractors, cultivator, a mower, a tree spade, and a couple ofpick-up trucks. ., ..
Ryan asked if the
Jin wilson sLated
trees would be
that they will
place .
the trees themselves.
this operation anil
sold in
harves t
between
..!!
-.
Ryan asked whatNatural Green .
the difference is
Dacy stated that Natural Green is a landscaping contractor, s yardactivity and they have a settlement agreement to conti.nue until acertain date in time. She stated that 1andscaping contractorrsyard.s are nor.e allo$red as conditional uses under the definition ofa contractorrs yard that r.ra s recently passed.
Conrad stated that the way the recorunendation reads, cornmercialnurseries and greenhouses, they could carry on sales activities.
Dacy stated yes retail and or wholesale activity.
Conrad asked why should }re aI1or,, that.
Dacy stated that, as the applicant pointeil out, it is an agri-cultural activity and you are more or less just selling the
cr ops .
Llark Vanlloff stated that we are not like the Natural Green opera-tion. Ee stated that there would be no retailing at all. Theylrant a sales building just to have some place for their customersto conduct business.
{
(
Planning Commission Minutes
December L2, 1984
Page 6
Dacy stated that as it exists novr, there is no provision in theordinance to allow for comrnercial nursery and greenhouses. Shestated that this can occur in the R-la area and it can be com-patible to adjacent uses and by amending the ordinance it wouldeliminate the non-conforming status for Halla Nursery and Holasekoperation. She added that then the applicant would have to sub-mit a specific site plan, showinq grading, location of buildings
and where he is going to keep the nursery stock, driveways, and
access .
.{
P lann ing
Decemb er
Page 7
Commission Minutes12, L984
L
The Commissioners felt that they r^ran t it stated inthat they did not want to al1ow future applicantsoperation that would a11ow them to put up a retailwhich would require large parking Iots.
Ryan asked if this ordinance arnend.mentHolasek for a conditional use permit.
the amendmentto carry on ansales outlet
qualifies Ha1la Nursery and
in favor.
establish conditional usesso that the Cily staffacceptable.
t
Dacy stated that the same approach that that was used forcontractor's yards could be used in this cases. she arso statedthat a definition for cornrnercial'nurseries and greenhouses courdbe devised so that retail activity is clearly r61ated to theselling of the product on site.
Albee moved, seconded by Conrad to recommend approval of Zoningordinance Amendment *84-7 to amend section 6.04-of the zoningOrdinance, conditional uses in the R-la District, ; i"ii;;;,
14. Who.Iesale commercial nurseries.
J. Thompson. Merz, A1bee, Conrad and Noziska votedRyan and M. Thompson opposed. Motion carried.
I Ryan stated that the. amendment brings in the category of cornmer _cial into a residential agriculto."i di"tti.t. u6 siated that wecanrt control the size or traffic from it. He stated that therethere are places where. these operations are allowed una tfl.Vshould not be aLlowed in that ione.
M. Thompson felt that we are going tothen we should set up "o." goid.lirr."can determine what criteria would be
Olsen explained that the applicant is submitting for informalreview a proposed four 1ot llanned residential i"""fol^"ni on r2acres now zoned R-la. She stated that the existing siru.ir.""and_ density will remain the same and no additional a.""i"p.""twill occur. she stated that the two family and multipie---"-dwellings were in existence before ttre aaoption of thi zoningOrdinance thus making them non-confomring uses. She added thatthe applicant states that these are now iental prop"rti"s-.naIeants them under individuar ownership for bettei maintenance inthe future. she stated that the it"rir.n-hoo"e wirr be moved ontothe. property where a duplex has been .e.ovea. She added that theeach proposed lot will be serviced Uy iis or,rn septic syten and
t
Sketch Revi ew 84-22 PIann ed1an
su v a re to
wes t an
a Be Inve s t
ir trtson
ca
urarcu ce on
ent ust nort
REGULAR CHANHASSEN
JANUARY 2I . I9A5
l.layor Hsnilton call.ed the
the Pledge to the Flag.
ICIT"i -OUNC IL HEETING (
Deeting to o.der. The oeeting ia9 opened the meeting Hith
I
Councilman Horn, Councillionan llatson
Councilroman Svrenson, Councilnan Geving
D on
BiII
Aehiorth, Earbara Dacy,
Monk, Roqe! Knutson
APPR0VAL 0F AGENDA: Councilromen liatson noved to apptove the agenda as presented
with the sddition of discussion on Council Goala and the Firs Depastnent. Hotion
aeconded by Councilman Ceving. The follolring voted in favor3 I,layor Hamilton,
Councilxomen Srenson end l{atson, Councilmen Geving and Horn. No negative votes.
Hotion car!ied.
C0NSENT AGENDA: Councilosn Horn ooved to approve the consent
the City Manager's rscoDmendations:
a. Zoning 0rdinance Aoendment Alloring Bed and Breakfast Inns
aganda pursuant to
as Condi tional Useg
-t
in the R-lA Dist!ict, Finel Reading.
b. Zoning 0rdinance Amendment Alloring Colt|lt|eEcial llholesale Nurseries aa
Conditional Uses in the R-lA District, FinaI Reading.
c. App.ove Extension of Dyplrick Grading Permit.
d. Resolution Rega!ding Banking Procedures. RES0LUII0N ,S5-
Motion seconded by Mayor H6miLton. The follolring voted in Fevor: }{ayor Hanilton,
Councilromen Swenson and l{atson, Councilmen Geving and Horn. No neqative votes.
Motion carri.ed.
S IGNS. D.J.
to install
instructed
tion.
0N: M!. DuaneAUCTI Harder appeared
a! his pl.6ce of busioess at 57I
the Ci ty Planner and fiLl out
before the Council seeking
l{est 78th StEeet. He xas
the appropriate sign permit
epp!oval
applica-
slgns
to see
PUBL I C HEARING
TRI-PROPERIIES CONDI TI ONAL USE PERHII
HayoE li8milton call.ed the hearing to order. John przymus lraa present.
8i.lI Monk - The condition concerning the ten foot from the creekbed th6t. runs olong
the norlh side oF the prope.ty, that portion of the condition has not been violated
but Lhe condition tha! the |.etLand itself, the lowlands, dorn in the northvest
corne! of the property be nothing nore than nolred and geeded, nhich lras found to be
acceptable by DNR in that Ietter, is the condition that's in question.
-t
Hembers Ptesent
Staff Present
counciloan Gevinq - I was rooking for the DNR letter dated october 25, 1992, thst
lras referred to thEee oE four tillles in the coDaespondence. ! dos't !ecaIl thst
letter specificeLry but I understand it was the basis From rhich ne mad6 one very
iDportant condition to this property. I would like to heve the Letter included trith
our packet because I think it tells u9 exactly what not to do lrith thet retland
area. It ras my understanding that xe had to stsy back from that 6pproximatel.y tenfeet or so, so that we rould not disturb that rretland. I remelnber th6t and I kno|r
it ras bui.l.t into the conditions in mony different places and forits and ooL l se6
that has been violated appa!ently.
L
\
.).
:.uncrl Ieeting Janucry 7 ' 1.98
I lj.ke the idea of raking !his
d rop the R-l i,ssue entirely at
a condi tional use unde r the R-1A
thi.s time.
r (- I2-
:nuncilnan
i)age J, like for instance, must be oline! occupied. I kind of }ike LhaL idea. This
:s J unique situaLion that Hrs. Bush has here. It,s an oId hone. It has historic
,alue to it. There aren't nany like it in Chanhassen and itrs not a tesidentj,al,
:rea. I think re should treat it as a condition to the R-1A DistsicL. I donrt
!.inoetstand Hhy lhere can be no more than one eoployee.
f3.bara q3SI - li. have addEessed the oBner occupied issue in the definition at the
Jottom of page l. I believe Lhe employee issue, re got reguLationa from fucson,
:.izona, to St. Paul to Savannah, Georgia, and that seemed to be a connon require-
ient and I think the intent of that is to al.row an ope!ation at least one emproyeeJut not if they a!e generating more than one employee then it nay be congtrued to be,letling a little too commercial,,
Councildan Gevino -
and Lould like Lo
Cevinq - I kind of like the first part of some of these conditions oo
a9 ree .
also guts a
about that
Counci lman Horn That cap on the uEe.
six square feet, cauld rs tlske that four squaleCounci lnan Cevinq
feet?
Hov
ilarjorie B ush You have to have somethj.ng fos people to find it.
A lot of peopla have signs riqht out F.ont oF thei! house indi-aounci l|,an Horn
catinq their name.
{ayor Hamilton moved to approve a zonj.nq ordinance amendnent to alLoH bed and b!eak-
iast establishments as a conditional use in R-IA Agri.cultural Residence Oistrict
trith the conditions.
1. The s!ructure oeets aIl Uniform Euilding and Fire Code requirements.
2. The strLrcture oeets all requi,!ements of the Minnesota DepartmenL of Health.
,. Tno (2) offstEeet paEking spaces plus ooe (l) additional space pes rental
room Dust be paovided.
4, 0ne non-illuninated sj.9n nay be erected on the property, not to exceed six(6) square Feet in size.
5. There shall be no more than one eoployee in addition to the residents.Motion seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: MayorHaoilton, Councilrorian !latson, Counciloen Horn and Geving. Councilwoman Swensonvoted no. llotion casried.
ZON I NG ORDINANI]F AHEND I.IEN T TO ALLOti COMMERCIAL NURSER IES AS CONDITIONAL USES IN IHE
R - I A D I S IR I C I:
Barbata Dacv - whaL i9 before you is another zoning ordinance amendment. The recoo-.,endation of the Planning coomission ras to only alrow whoresale comoercial nur-se'ies. Ihe commission desired that a ciear destinction be made betieen a rholesaleconmercial nursery and a retail commercial nursery trhich rrould dear directry rith!he pub.lic. r tri.ed to, upon their recoonendation, do a little more reseaEch onthis topic and staff has cone up with the definition that you have before rhj,chst.ictly mandates that the plants qtown on-site be sold in a rholesa.Le manne!. Ialso pointed out thaL gEeenhouses rere not recommended by the commission to betncluded in their approval and further discussioo r.ith various nursery gaoxe!s in aiholesale operation g!eenhouses are nornal accessory structure to begin theseedrngs' etc. for trees, etc. and start theo inside and then you lllove the plantsoutslde on the grorinq aange. lihat you have befoEe you aae a couple of optiong.rhe o'rginal applicEtion was for comltercial nurse!ies and greenhouses including xho-lesrle and rcteil. The Plenning Co,!rj.ssion recom ended only comnercisl rholesol6our9ctias.
l-t:[r
iEf
h
Counci lro,nan Watson - I
E
I
rja
1,,,,oCouncil lleetinq January
Counci.lwomao We t son - l{hat they wan t is strictly a wholesale?
-t)-
l
ria.bara q3SI - Yes. The applicant, his particular
aoyrever, in reseatching this type of use in zoningnurseries can include rholesale and cetail.
intention
ordinances
tias a whofesale,
usuaLl.y cor[mercial
Council\roman l{atson There is reta-il mentioned on thiS applicati.on.
Barbara 0acy Mr. VanHoff is here and he ean address you.
r{ark vanHoff - r rourd like to ooly say this, that rheo ,,e visi,ted with the pranningcommissioo they \'rere having a rear hard time conceptuarizing ho,. re could rholega.r.eand not retail' As I visited ,.ith Barb thefe is a rea.r. easy rey to ge! a.ound thatin the nursery industry and i.trs very co,!mon and that is you require your client tohave a nurserymanrs ricense. That's very gtandard in the induEtry. It nouto be arequirement of ours since both Ji,, and I are currentry selring nursery stock toretailers and landscapers. Io protect our selling inage and reputation ," ""nitve!y well compete rith the peopJ.e re are selling. our operation rourd not be aHalla type nursery' It would not be a Natural Green type r.aodscape yard. rt rourdbe like a Hartnann T.ee Farn iF you are familiar *ith that rhere the p!oduct isgrolrn in the qround. As alluded to by garbrs comment, itrs an agricultutal p!oqram.I would think it rould behoove the area Lo have a crop that instead of being har-vested on an annuar basis is haIvested on every four or five year cycre. you haveless equipnent around. you have ress fertilizer appl,ication. you have ress no_ise.You have more aesthetic product in the ground.
Councilwoman
generated by
}latson - Hon much tauck
your busj.ness?
trafFic Houl.d you project that wou.Ld be
l{ark vanHoff - currentry' on just a rough estimate, there i9 probabry J0 garden cen-ters i.n the Lrin City area. There are p!obabLy another at the nost 100 Iicensedlandscapers of rhich as they are currently doing business with rewholesalers, maybecome in on a once every tro reek basis. They come in and pick up their products fora landscape job, the go out and do their job. I can,t really ansure. that questj.onother than you a.e looki ng at naybe seven o! eigh t customers dropping in a day.
3
Counci L,roman l{atson You don't do any storage of black dirt or any of those kj,nd ofthings?
Iark VanHoff
you dig the
He needs the
Coun ci I inan
of buj.ldi,ng
be a sales
particular
would probably be black
The customer lhat would
to put in the gtound.
from the standpoj.nt of
has al.ready got a plan
- There
trees.
product
dirt
coDe
only
to us
when
soLd.
Cevi.no - I need to know moIe about the storage of vehicles and what kindyou night put up. I understood fEom rhat I have read that there t{ouldbuilding. Could you describe some of the buildings that xill go on thj.spiece of property?
B
l,lark van}lof f - cur.entry' the prope.ty that t{e are Looking at has adeguate buildingsfor the entire ope.atioo. That sales building caoe out of a question regarding hoHare you going to sell your product. llhat l{e are going to have lo have a salebuilding. Ihat it is cuErently is the home. It rould be an olfice rhere peop].erould check in and solicit the order, go out, fill the order and then Leave.currentry there is a house. There is a b!ick, I bel.ieve it r6s an old milk shedused as a gsrage noi that can be adequately used as a buiiding fo! a sales oFfice.rhere is a barn aod there is three storage qarages vhi.ch courd very easiry take ca!eof aII of the equipment.
a!ounctl )leetinq
C cunc i I nen Ho rn
J an u ary t (jes
- I donrt see much
goes on. They have
off qui.te as often.
had
the
difference in
the same type
I think it.s
this operation and any
of machinery. In fact
a perfectly acceptable
other Fa rn
you may not
type oi use
the
rePre-
think
seem to
-I4-
;pecation that
:rke your crop
ior !hat aaea.F
:
E
r-'ounciliroman Swenson - I think Dale covered pretty lrell covered ne coDce!ns l.,hich isi.errarnly wouldn't '.ant to see a lot of equipment sitting around out in the yardor having it Iook like a contractor's yaEd. I am also very nuch concerned snd youJf1 know that High'.ay l0l reaves something to be desired as far as the pavement isconcerned. The state has given us no indi.cation thst they will do anything to mai.n-iain that road. I a,, concerned ]rith heavy equipnent going over that road.
Council an
ccmoercial
Councilman
',{ alson and
Horn moved to approve the zoning ordinance amendment to alloH t{ho.l.esalenurseries as a conditional use in the R-tA DistEj.ct. Motion seconded byGeving. The following voted in lavor: Mayor Hamj.lton, Councillro,ren
S{enson, Councilmen Horn and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried.
REVIEW REQUEST FOR PROPOSAL FOR OPT-OUT PROGRAM. MTC:
Barbara 0acv - Befo!e you is the p.oposed draft that the r.{Tc 0pt-0ut Advisory
Ccrami.ttee is p!oposinq to send out to a Iist of transit consultants to generate sornaiesponse on focar tsansit system in chanhassen, chaska, Eden prairie, and shakopeearea. I am brinqing this to your attention jugt as the other me,nbers of the comnit-:ee are' so that you a!e anate of this coDmittee's activities and that you act toaccept and appEove the draFt as proposed.
ilayor Haoiltoo moved to accept and app.ove the draft as proposed. Motion seconded by:ouncir',{oman '{atson. The follofling voted in Favor ! Mayor Hanilton, council',omen1{atson and Swenson, Councilmen Horn and Gevrng. No negative votes. Hotion carried.
) 0l{N T 0lvN SIcN REQUES]
3arbara Q-qg:. - Mr. i{eidner and Mr. Anderson made a request Lo redesign the do!rntorn:;rqn that the City has at the corner of Hiqh',ays 5 and 10I. City staff ,,ent aheadirnd asked for proposars from six sign companies and we have thEee responses. Theilotdguist sign company, I still haven'it received their proposar. yet. Honever, whatstafl is reconnending is that a special co,rnittee of aoy number of councr.r nenbersand meobers ol the Chamber and these proposals teviered and a recommendation raade tocouncir as to go ahead and tEy to redesiqn the sigo or reave it alone o! expro!e thevarious opLions. Their main concern is as Mr. Anderson said, a fot ol dinner theatrecustome.s are getti ng r.ost. They feer there coufd be better si.gnage to the doHntownarea and the existing sign onl.y has one sj.de of copy so a !edesign may appear
f easibLe.
Mavoc Hamilton I
a
,:nHdf
this seeing as ho,,
thouqht that the
fun c Li on ol that
Chamber
si gn i.s
would get a Iittle more active in
real.I y for Chanbe r nembers.
8arba!a Dacv - fhe have indicated they rill do cost sharing.
I:rvor Hamr lton - I had talked nith them and said you ought to run this throughChaDbe. and get sone ideas fton the Chamber peop-te. After all this sign is torent the businesses and they should be more involved than us really. I don,t'lnvbody irom the councir needs to be on that co,nmi.ttee but it rou]d certain]yie that there should be a .Little oore imagination shoHn.
a nice sign ri Lh a
else. Let's get the
il
f,Gevine - Persona).1y, Lould be just as pteased |rithClrrnnassen logo aod it says ,'welcone to Chanhassen,, as anythingahrl:lher involved in thig one.
o CITYAOF
EEtrffiIfIIf,SSEIil
L
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
STAFF REPORT
PLANNING
GENERAT
Chanhassen planning
Barbara Dacy, City
December 6, 1984
Cornmi s s
P1 an ner
zoning Ordinance Amendment toGreenhouses as a Condi tional
CASE: 84-7 Zoning Ordinance
INFORMATI ON
A1low
Use in
Amendment
Mark vanHoff
10550 Nicollet Ave. S.Bloomington, MN 55420
Conmercial Nurseries andthe R-Ia District.
Appl i can t
Requested Action
Purpose
ANALYS IS
To amend Section 6.04 of theZoning Ordinance to a11ow com-merical nurseries and greenhousesas coadi tiona.L uses.
The applicant is intending topurchase a 40 acre tract as apossible si. te for a comrnercia.Lnursery (see Attachment #2).
TO:
EB,OM :
DATE:
SUBJ:
The applicant is requesting a zoning ord.inance amendment to includecommercial nurseries in the n-la diitrict. The R-la district no\^, pro-vides for greenhouses as an accessory use to a private residentialuse. A greenhouse is defined as a "ltructure used for the curtivationor protection of flowers, vegetables, and nursery stock,l . tfre orai_nance therefore prohibits suih a use as a princiial use of iand.There is no provision as welr for a wholesale or retail nursery r.Jheregoods are sold on the premises and retail traffic is geneiaied.Because of these provisions Harla Nursery and the Irorisek greenhouseare considered non-conforming uses. Laniscaping contractoiis yardactivities are noer allowed ai conaition"t .r.L, in R-1a districts. Thec-3, commerciar service district alrows ,'greenhouses for retail saresonly" as a permitted use and requires a conditional use permit for
oo
"commercial greenhouses and landscaping businesses',. There are onlytwo areas zoned C-3: the area north of Hwy. 212, east of T.H. 101,and the west end of 79th street in the Frontier Deveropment park.
commercial nursery activities may include in varying degrees, growingranges, greenhouses, a sales building, and accessory Uuitaings. Thes19wi1s. of nursery stock in and of iiself is an ',agiiculturaLn acti-vJty (tlre zoning ordinance defines agricurture as Lhe "cultivation ofthe soil and all activities incident thereto,,). Hosrever, it is theretai l/wholesare activity which shoutd deserve more scruiiny inregards to the rocation of buildings on the property and th6ir rela-tion to adjacent property, access, off-streei parkiig areas,screening, and. on site sewage systems. Allowing comierciar nurseriesas conditionar uses wourd_require site plan rerrie* via the publichearing process which wour.d afford the lity the opportunity'to imposeappropriate conditions on the submitted sile plan.- this r-evi ew wiuldassure that a commerciar nursery is compatible in size and intensityto adjacent uses.
RECOMMENDATI ON
CommerciaL Nurseries and Greenhouses
December 6, L984
Page 2
The Planning staff recomrnendsfollowing motion:the Planning Commission adopt the
PLANNING COMIIIISSION ACTION
On
of
a motion by Albee and secondedthe amendment as follows:by Conrad to recommend approval
14. Wholesale commercial nurseries.
J. Thompson, tqerz, A1bee, Conrad and Noziska voted in favor.Ryan and M. Thompson opposed. Motion carried.
STAFF UPDATE
'rThe_Planning commission recornmends approval of zoning ordinanceAmendment *84-7 to amend section 6.04 or the zoning oidinance, con-ditional uses in the R-la district, as follows:
14. Commercial nurseries and greenhouses.',
The-Planning Commission in their recommend.ation to alJ.ow onlywholesale commercial nurseries as conditional uses in the R-IaDistrict was intended to draw a distinction bethreen an operationwhich caters directly to the public (retail) versus a whilesale
:P?:"ti:" where goods are sold to Iicensed nurserymen in usuallybulk orders. Greenhouses $rere not includeal in th;t recornmen -dation because the Commission felt that the establishment of agreenhouse may cause "an intensification of that use in the R-laDrstrict". The Commission also directed the staff to prepareguidelines for Council review of location of these types if uses.
oo
Upon further investigation about the conduct of a nursery opera_tion, it was found that a greenhouse for a wholes"r" nuii.riactivity is considered as i common accessory building. i[-i" .yunderstanding that the greenhouses are used to cultiiate ,'"iioo"species of nursery stock initially and then the stoct is moveaoutside to the growing range. the planning commi ss i on -r.=-"o., -cerned that a greenhouse woufd be confused with a retaii-"to."allowing the public to buy a product grown in ttre greenfrouse.Hordever, in a wholesale operaiion, a lreenhouse is-used stri.ctfyfor the growth of nursery stock on si[.e.
Staff has aLso developed the following definition which canclarify the activity of a nursery.
Commercial Nurseries and Greenhouses
December 6, 1984
Page 3
Nursery:plants grorelated topower equi
impl-emen t s
REPORT ATTACHMEN IJ
An enterprise which conducts the wholesale ofwn on site as well as accessory items directlytheir care and maintenance (but not includin!pment such as gas or electric lawn mowers and farm).
Staff. originally did not recommend any specific conditions forlocation of nurseries in the R-Ia Dislrilt in order to arlow tnecity flexibility in site design and location review, h";;;;;members of the planning Commiision felt that such guiJelinu" *.r"necessary. Upon further investigation, staff recommends thatshould the council decide to approve commercial nurseries as con-ditional uses that it be subjeli to location on a collecioi asdesignated in the Comprehensive p1an. This reconmendat:.on-r.=devised in anticipation of the type of traffic that can begenerated by wholesale commercial nurseries. Much of the trafficconsists of heavy vehicles.
1
2
3
1
Application.
Location map of a possible nurseryExcerpts from Zoning Ordinance.Planning Commission minutes dated
site.
December L2, 1984 -
Pl ann ing
Dec embe r
Commission
Lg, L985 -
Meeti ng
Page 2g
Chairman Conrad stated thaton January lZ, L987.
(AuzzAED o,rfotD, ELIaA
this item would be on the City Council agenda
because the properties are outside the urban service Area, we have toprocess this pran Amendment to incrude the parcels in that. The phoneconversations with Met councir staff, they have indicated that beaause ofthe emergency nature of the request, because effruent in some cases isreaching the surface of the ground, that they wirl authorize extension ofthe lines to service these properties. Typi-alry, in plan amendnents, someof the members recall, you have to swap developJble a6reag" out and swap indeveropable acreage into the MUSA area- -chanhisses just does not have inymore rand availabre to swap. The basis for extending the rine is purely '
because of the potential porlution and safety hazardi caused by the faiiingsystems so in essenc-e- this is, we're going through the formar pro"".s so w6can get Metro Councilrs approval.
conrad: shor., me where the MUSA rine used to be and where is it moving?
Dacy: The MUSA line is this spaced rines here. vertical road cu1-de-sacsalong the rrest' so the MUSA line is outside those properties. Basicarly itruns along the outside boundaries of the lots abutaing osth street and lhenit goes up on Lake Lucy Road so the new line comes frJm Lake Lucy Road andit goes. down Galpin and run arong the south rot rine of the rots alongcrestview Drive and then go back up on the west side here to match thi t1ine.
,Chairman Conrad opeoed the meeting for public comments.
\on rerly: r live at 2801 west 65th street and r,ve spent about an hourhere with the city councir and you may have seen me on rv and read aboutthe things in the newspapers and basiCaIIy, Terry Atherton, my neighboracross the street and r are very much in favor oi ttris and uniess liou havespecific questions or you feel lhat you need more information, I don,tthink that I need to spend any more time.
Emmings. moved, sieger seconded to close pubric hearing. Alr voted in favorand motion carr ied.
Emmings_ moved, siegel seconded that the pranning commission recommendapproval of Land use plan Amendment Request No. g6-2 to include propertiesabutting.and adjacent to west G5th stre;t and crestview Drive inio itreMetropolitan urban service Area and that the Metropolitan Area urbanservice Area line be amended to include said parceis. Arl voted in favorand motion carr ied.
PUBLIC HEARI NG:
ORD I NANCE AMENDMENT TO ORD I NANCE 47-AD TO ALLOW CHURCHES OUTSIDE THE
ME TROPOL I TAN URBAN SERVICE AREA.
\-sen: The background on this is that the members of the westside Baptist.lurch came to staff requesting that they want to move the church on ig nt
Sa
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PJ.ann i ng
Decembe r
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LO, L986 -
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(oi.n is outside the urban service Area and we explained to them thatchurches are arrowed in the R-lA District as a conditional use permit butone of the conditions is that they had to be within the urban service Area.we suggested that if they $ranted to pursue it they courd pursue having anordinance Amendment. They went in front of the councir a-nal the councilsaid that.it is up to the staff to amend the zoning oralnince to arrowchurches in the R-1A District outside of the MUSA line. The zoningordinance was first amended in 1976 to allow churches is i conditional, usein the R-lA District a-nd at that time, Staffrs recommendation r"ras that as aconditional use churches had to be $rithin the tqusa ii;;.--w. went in frontof the Planning conmission and the pranning commission approved theamendment but they wanted that a condition be that they ue on a particularrot outside the MUsA line. It went in front of the corlncir and ihey wentalong with staffrs recommendation so as of today, they are arlowed in theruraL section but they do have to be inside thJ uusa tine. one of the mainconcerns was whether or not a sanitary septic.system is capable ot tranaiinja church with the uses on sunday. staff confirmed it with- ttre cityInspector and Mr. Roger Machmeier that a church actually has less iemand ona septic system than a single family residence and nol, -rith our ne,ordinance 10-B and with the Subdivision Amendment we can regulate that theseptic system will be proper on this site and wirL be abre to handle thecapacity. They are still in the process of accepting the proposedordinance. staff is.recommending that you just imend the lonaition. Rightnow the proposed ordinance stirr has the condition 6 that the property
-must be entirely within the MUSA line. what we are suggesting is' tn.i trr"('ranning commis.sin recommend to amend the proposed ordiiance to change (e)to state that churches outside the MUSA line must provide the following 'for
review. These are the same requirements that we hive in the newsubdivision ordinance for us to determine if the site is capabre ofhand l ing sept ic systems and Ehen they also added 6 that it must be inconformance with ordinalce |0-B. Again, staff is recommending approvar ofthis amendment and we wilr incorporate that into the nes, orainanii.
siegel moved, wirdermuth seconded to close public hearing. Alt voted infavor and motion carried.
Siegel: What specific church is prompting this?
olsen: westside Baptist. They are right now in the High school on TH 41.ActualIy they want to move into the Brian Klingelhutz property.
Conrad: If this church expanded into a church of L6,060 parishers, ourOrdinance will take care of the sanitary sevrage problems?
olsen: They would have to come in with a preliminary saying that they aregoing to expand their amount and we would have the means to say you need toput in another septic system to suit Ehat.
Conrad: what would trigger that Jo Ann, just to refresh my mind? Abuilding permi t?
Planning
December
Commission
Lg, L986 -
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{ r""n,
and they
ActualJ.y, it vrould have to show how much gallons they will be usingwill set the site with the actual...
With a building permi t?
Olsen: With a building permit at that time but when they come withexpansion, they have to get another building permit and it that timeBuilding Inspector can say you need to incrlase your capacity and ifmeans putting in a rrhole other...
Conrad: A lot of churches have schools associated with them-
Conrad:
mmings:
here?
the
tha t
Olsen: We looked into that and they do have classes. In fact, they dohave a service tonight and they do have classes during the certain -ays butthey went through alI the state Regurations and even lhen the capacit-y,they don't have the dishwashers, the shovrers, and the water that-is uiedstill- wouldn't be as much as a singJ.e family home.
Conrad: A school that was operating, not just a church school but areligious, any kind of school that operates five days a week.
Dacy: r think there is a difference though between the church and theschool. The schoor like st. Hubert'!s is day after day after day whereaschurch activities are maybe one night a week or two times a week.
(I think Ladd is saying, what if they decide to have a school
Dacy: No i., remember too that the originar apprication is a conditionar usePermit so they have to submit their proposed designs, site plan capacityand this is what the conditions are setting out t-hat the city wilr-havJtheopportunity to review it and say, !{e are going to base approval just onwhat you have submitted and any increase in the intensitly- use wiir triggeranother Conditional Use permit.
wirdermuth: Letrs say within the existing structure and they decide tohold a dairy schoor. Ho r,, r,rould the city know that they made that decisionor made that change?
Dacy: To be honest, if they did not apply for a buirding permit and therewas not any expansion necessary, we wourdn't know but th;t-'s the importanceof when they initially come in with the conditionar use permit that itspecifies the conditionar use that the city has a right io specify thetypes of uses that occurs so that $re can spell all tfiat out-
sieger: And without facilities to warrant usage other than what you wouldtypicalry find in a church like that, ther-e is only so much capac-ity theycan generate unress they decided to expand physicalry the structur", we -
wouldn't have any reason to rrorry whether they usea it. r think a churchnas a rlght to use their property 24 hours a day if they r,rant to don't they
r iust like anybody erse so r aon'l think you can put any kind of restrictionL
Plann ing
Decembe r Commission
LA, L986 -
Meet i ng
Page 23
( n whether they wanted to use their
day.
Wildermuth: Thatrs just within the
facility 8 hours a day or 12 hours a
existing structure.
sieger: oh yes, but even then there is only so much potenti.ar capacity.Assuming that they are designing their structure to ficilitate a full houseattendance, what would be gained unLess they had something like a gy*n."i".and showers and stuff like this included in the structurei
Olsen: And we would know that from the alesign.
sieger moved, Emmings seconded that the pranning commission move to anendthe p_roposed zoning ordinance by removing condiIion E anil repracing it withthe following:
Churches outside the MUSA line must provide thefor rev iew:
1. Location of trdo (2) drainfield sites.
folLowing da ta
2. T$ro (2) soil borings on each drainfield site for a total offour (4) soil borings.
3. No percolation tests for drainfield sites where the land
{ slope is beti{een zero and 12t.t-
4. One (1) percolation test .oer drainfield site where the Iandslope is betvreen 13? and 25t.
5. Areas srhere the land slope exceeds 25E shaII not beconsidered as a potential soil treatment site.
5. The se$rage treatment system must be in conformance withOrdinance 1g-B.
All voted in favor and motion carried.
wildermuth: r $rourd like to see one thing added to that. considering theoriginal building permit or the original slze of the church, t would liketo see the system design for optimum utilization.
Emmings: Could you say that again?
Siegel: Wouldn't they be designing the structure for maximum?
wildermuEh: r want them to design a structure or design the church to theproperly to be used several nights a week besides one, two or Ehree Sundayservices and as Ehe congregation grows, all of a sudden you have a church'school and a kind of day school arid maybe the congregati6n will grow where
, there are meetings every day of the week.L
Planning
Decembe r
Commission10, 1986 -
Meeting
Page 24
{acy: Ho r,, about something like adding number 7, information as to how thertimate capacity shalr be accommodated. That's kind of a rough languageut basicarry asking them to estabrish vrhat their future plans are and ho$,re they going to anticipate that growth? wourd they need a second systemr.could they just instalt another I,250 gallon tank? Those types of-hings.
sieger: Isn't that what we're doing here is trying to maximize potentialfor growth of this site by putting ln all locations two drainfi"ia "it"",t$ro-so-il borings. In other words, rike you said, arl of your studies andstuff like this have proven that churchei have ress use ti:an a singlefamily home with a septic system primarily.
Dacy: r think the intent though is if they do intend to expand, a numberof churches do kind of submit a phase r and they identiry the possiblephase 2 expansion that with that expansion thai either t-rre- cidv ,"loii"them to come through the process aglin to make sure that there is anotheral'ternate site avairabre for -another system_ or that they submit that tt;;of.information to prove at this time itrat it they do "*i.na, there arealternate sites ava i l able.
Siegel: r guess that's my question. Are we assuming that these conditionshere would be maximum usage of the church and if noti then vrhat Jim said issort of a redundancy to lrhat has been conditioned beiorehand here.
('::I, =_I!_i!"t comes dolrn to- your degree of comfort tevet. If you feel\-nat rs lntended through numbers 1 through 5, then you can recommend thatllrit- is just adopted. rf you want to be more comfoltable $rith it ana-Ll-al j.ttle more specific, you would add number 7.
Conrad: Bob, donrt you see, of course this is an existing congregation.Right nos, they are moving and how many people in that con{regation?
olsen: r think he said Like 200 and some. r berieve they design thesystem, the state standards are by the number of seats in the churchfacility.
u
b
a
o
t
Conrad:
sense.
so the system wirr be sized by the number of seats which makes
siegel: Thatrs why I wonder if werre noE trying to put more into this than,e need to. werre not tarking about thousunas or people here and if werdere, they would have to come in for another strudtuie. in- otner $rords,another buirding permit which we rrourd arso issue another conditionar usePermit. In other words, why put more into this than...
Conrad: ceneralize it for the next church that wanEs tocomes another church with a congregation of zero peopleplan to grow to L.6OA.
t
com e
in it
1n.
no hr
Herebut they
Planning
Decembe r
Commission
LA. t986 -
Meeting
Page 25
f n*irgs: But if it is sized to thethat's what it is.
Wildermuth: The issue is what issize of the facility is fine.
wildermuth3 Thatts true anal throughthere some kinil of design factor that
-onrad: I guess I dontt see a problem
facility, what,s the difference and
the use of the facility. I agree the
Mr. Machmeierts experience, i sn'tthey use in a situation like this?
Emmings: But the best _you can do, if you ask a person what are you goingto use this for in rhe future, the besi they can' do i; ;i;" you a statementof present intent and they can say anything- they wal t'o-re""us" they canchanse thar a half hour liter. r-rhi;k it -shour'd t; =i;;-;" the buirding
3ng- l?t to anybody's plans or anything else. If you .ire-it to thebuir-ding., you know you,re going io be fine. Now, whether the building isused 24 hours per dayr-.se-ven day a week or one day a week for two hoursmakes a heck of a big differenc6 but r don't xnor'rr"* "i. yJ,r.r..9oing toput that in here? r-here is no way yoo..n say that that wirr realrygiveyou an answer.
Olsen: They just follow the State. There is also, if they have sixbath-rooms, then they wirl have an idea but if there are oniy qoing to uetwo bathrooms in the_re, !1"I. is onry a certain amount of u-se-thai is goingto be done. That rearry limits evem the number of people and how many-hours it is being used.
say something like the system would bethe church. It gives it an intent.
if we put in
designed for
i.nt 7 which wou ld
ma x i rnum usage of
apo
the
Siegel: It doesn,t make any difference as far as Irm concerned.
Conrad: Itrs
don rt know how
do you want to
your motion and therefore, if you want Jim'she's going to vote and Irm not sure ho$, Irm
amend it Bob? Itrs your motion out there.
vote,
go ing
I guess Ito vote so
siegel: r think lr withdraw my motion. r'11 let Jim make a new one.
Wi ldermuth:condition 7.
read that.
I move that we
Since you have
adopt the staff recommendation withsomething written down there Ladd,
the
would you
Conrad: Mythe church.intent.
Emmings:
Conrad:
Dac
comments
I donr t say a system
kno e, if those
wi 1I beare the
designed for
r ight r"rords
the
but
maximum usage ofthat is the
y: rs
Maximum potent i a I
Yes.
the intent more
usage, is that the idea?
{L
to try and gage the expansion?
Pl ann i ng
Decembe r Commission
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Page 25
( itaermuttr.r Ng,. r think the intent is that we don,t run into a systemfailure like with these gentLemen here were talking about their pioblem.I'm just trying to avert or avoid...
Dacy: okay, then maybe r compretely misunderstood your intent because...
Wildermuth: Irm not trying to anticipate expansion.
Dacy: okay, because- then the design standarals and how it is instalred,ordinance 10-B and through a conditionaL use permit, we r^rould make surethat they wourdn't undersize the septic system so it vrould accommodate.
Wildermuth: A 2OA seat church used every night of the r^,eek or maybe three
talking about
cover it
the
days weeks as ere1l as two services on sunday.
Dacy: Right. Irm sorry I understood. I thought you wereexpansion and changes of uses.
Emmings: We did. We talked about that too.
Dacy: But as to hor., it is designed and installed, I think we canbetween our Septic Ordinance and the Conditional Use permit.
Wildermuth: Okay, fine. I withdraw my number 7 condition. Letgroposal read as Staff has recommended.{\onrad: - JiT,-q got a dif f erent point than I have. lty concern is growthbe!$rggn building permits. A congregation of 100 gro-wing to L,66a but thebuilding was designed to seat l,Aqq.
Emmings: Because of the State Standards that you have.
conrad: so the state standard says that vre design a system for r,a06. rdon't think we need point 7 then. Do you want [he 9r6ry of yoo, '.otioni
Siegel: You already have my motion written down.
Emmings: And my second.
Hordard Noziska arrived at this point in the meeting.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
Emmings.moved, Siegel seconded to approve theCom:nission meeting dated NovemUer fi, lggG aspage 4 and 22. AII voted in favor and motion
Minutes of the
amended by Mr.carried.
PJ-anning
Emmings on
Conrad: That's it for our agenda items.came out to everybody. I think those that
,. should read it. Any nev, business that wetL
The proposed Zoning Ordi nancearenrt familiar with it, youwould like to talk about tonight?
trrv or
Eiinffiti-[EsEffi
STAFF REPORT
( c. oare: I2-10-96
C.C. DATE: I-19-87
CASE NO: 86-6 zO
Prepared by: Olsen: k
Fz
(J
J(L
(L
ko
hJF
U)
To amend the Zoning Ordinance to Al1ow ChurchesOutside the Metropolitan Urban Service Area.
PROPOSAL:
LOCATION:
APPLICANT:
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENSITY:
ADJACENT ZONING
AND LAND USE:N-
s-
E-
w-
WATER AND SEWER:
PEYSICAL CHARAC. :
I99O LAND USE PLAN:
{
Zoning Ordinance AmenCment I6-6
December 10, 1986
Page 2
BACKGROUI\D
On November 3, 1986, Mr. Frank Clifton of the Westside Baptist
Church requested the City Council to consider allowing churchesoutside the Metropolitan Urban Service Area (MUSA). The CityCouncil was in favor of staff researching the subject anddirected staff to process a Zoning Ordinance amendment(Attachment *1) .
The Zoning Ordinance was amended in 1976 to allow churches asa conditional use in the R-lA District. Staff at that tirne
recommend.ed that a condition be that all churches shall be withinthe MUSA Line (Attachment #2). The Planning Commission votedapproval of the amendment, however, changed staff's condition toread "if the subject property is l-ocated outside the MUSA Linethat it be equipped with an effective sanitation system which
would meet the requirements as set forth by the City Engineer,'(AttachmenE #3). The City Council approved the amendment butmaintained staff's position of keeping churches within the MUSAtine (Attachment #4 ).
ANALYS I S
The proposal is to amend the Zoning Ordinance to al1ow churcheson property outside the Metropolitan Urban Service Area as a con-ditional use in the R-1A District. Since single family develop-ment has been allowed outside the &IUSA Line, there has beenseveral rural residential developments. These and future rural
developments create a demand for churches in the rural area.
The major concern is whether a septic system can support achurch. Staff consulted with Mr. Roger Machmeier, and the CityInspector to determine the impact of a church and its relateduses on a septic system (Attachurent *5). A church actually hasless demand as a septic system than a single family home with ahigh water use from showers, washers, garbage disposal , etc.
Ordinance No. 10-A and the Subdivision Ordinance have recentlybeen amended. and now provide improved guidance from which theCity can regulate the instalaltion of sewage treatment systems.With these new regulatsions the City can better determine if asite is suitable for an Individual Sewage Treatment System andcan better enforce the design and maintenance of the treatmentsystems. Therefore, the City is able to regufate the placementand design of a sewage treatment system and can ensure that itwill accommodate a church aE its peak hours of usage.
RECOllMENDATI ON
With the number of single family developments outside the MUSALine, there is a dernand for churches outside the MUSA Line andthe city is able to ensure the design of an acceptabre treatment
(
a
Zoning Ordinance I5-6
December 10, 1985
Page 3
{
The proposed ordinance permits churches asthe RSF - R-I2 Districts. This ordinanceconditions for churches:
conditional
proposes the
uses infollowing
a The site sha1I be located on a collector oas identified in the Comprehensive plan oraccess can be provided without conductingresidential concentration i
r arterial roadwaylocated so thattraffic through
b The structure must be set back
l ines;50 feet from all property
Parking areas shall be set back 25 feet from streets and non-residential property anal 30 feet from residential propertyt
No more t.han 70t of the site issurface and the remainder is to
conforinance with Article VIII.
to be covered with impervious
be suitably landscaped in
e
f
The property must lie entirely
The property mus t
Land Use P.l-an.
Churches outs idedata for revierv:
the MUSA Line must provide the following
within the MUSA
as res idential
line; and
on the aodptedbe des ignated
Staff is recommend.ing that the Planning Commission move to amendthe proposed Zoning Ordinance by removing Condition E andreplacing it with the following:
1) Location of two (2) drainfield siles-
2l Two (2) soil borings on each drainfield site for a totalof four (4) soil borings.
3)No percolation tests for drainfield sites r^rhere the landslope is bet.ween zero and 12t.
4)One (1) percolation test per ilrainfield site rarhere theland slope is between 13t and 25t.
5)Areas where the land slope exceeds 258 shal1 not be con-sidered as a potential soil treatment site.
6 ) The se\"/age t.reatment system
Ordinance 10-B .
must be in conformance with
system to support a church. Since a church is a conditional use,the City can set standards .,rhich it must meet to make it com-patible with surrounding uses in the rural districts. Therefore,staff recommends amending the ordinance to a1low churches out-side the MUSA Line as conditional uses.
c.
d.
rt
Zoning Ordinance 86-6
December 10, I986
Page 4
ATTACHMEN?S
City Council minutes dated November 3, 1986.
Staff report dated August 23, 1976.
Planning Commission minules dated September 22, 1976.City Council minutes daEed October I8, L976 and Ordinance 47-AD.
Memo from George Donnelly dated December 4, 1986.Current Ordinance 47-AD regulating churches in the R-1ADistrict.
Proposed Ordinance regulating churches as conclitional uses.
{
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Z,za-?Fc.,, Ot
City Counci I l4eetinq _ June I, 1987
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT
IN AGRI CULTURAL otstRrcrs,
Jeff Farmakes: The oresent chain has enough slack where you restrict accessard you can easily p,rr it ,p "J iri"J'."t* 'u'*"rn"uth it ard that,s whatrEplEns when people accessed- i: *t*+ -
";'; got to tighten that chain.ffLi":f:H jil*oi,l:",1 ,* you wourd arso be- resrricrins uc"e"s tJ-tj,.s" a_
l,layor Hamilton: *a ,:-:I.:r_q do is put a gate on there similar to what wehave at the south Lotus .ake ac"ess nor- "o tti. eutu can swirg shut anl ourcity peopre can just open .ir..rri you;fi iiiar ra up or down. you have rorEve a key or a rock to get in. frr"t ,*Lia-*-*r"h more secure.
LoTa
o 93
r
Courcilman Geving: Could I add to your motion Mr. Uayor. I want to qo backto Greenwood shores. r want. to pi"r',rpan-iiJtr. you nentioned three items.I eJant to add a fourth one_ thar ;h..u L;.-;;t launching. rhat we directstaff to meet with carv_e-r c-ounry- ilii.+;;'r;i ard have that area patrolledregularry' rhat somehow we need to clean up the debris- whether we hire itdone or have the Bov scputs a" it ".
-"-Jo'" JIi,i *..n=. Then finally, thelast one that you iraa r .trrinx =r,ouiJ o"" iln
"J."'l,tinrt."
as a motion and that isri instruct sraff ro took at trre;;;J'l.;i*tha t cha i n ana r woura- i i :.. t. -
.ai- -J" ;;.;:tt"" ffJ.rii:;*-:H:. t :ffi:: J :
Mayor ttamilton: Irtl add, them. charg ing the one to say that the policirg ofthe area shourd be done through ii*'cirlrti, "fie n:bric safety Direcror of thecity arrl it should be an enforteuur" lypu- "7 .-nio.o*"nt where if there areviolations, there wirl be tickets G=;td- ;; iJ wouta rike to see the reportsback for review. Eirher here ..;t6;;;iT"'Lr"ay commission so we knowthat it is beinq taken care of ana the pi.UiJ."'i. hopefully being solved.
Mayor Hamilton moved, councilman Geving seconded that the Greenwood shores
=1.-l-.:!
have any pu.kl:l?,.: i5.. rt.-i tr]Jii'L.xi.s sisns on rhe streersremarn as they are. Acc::s to.that beach L"Iuliruur. only Eo city personnerto work at Ehe rif. station and it remain u .ii-ghbornood purx. rhere le noboat launching at Greenwood shores. -i#;;ffid
meet with Jim chaffee ropatrol and enforce violat^ions
.
oc?";.i.q ;1 -i.?.'nro_
shores and the Citvcouncir or pr:bric safetv cnmmis.ion rJ"iLlelorts ror review ard that staffbe instructed to look ai aevisinj-a ;., g.i"
"Irlaem for the entrance intocreenr"rood shores park. AIso, rh;t til; d;;Hach park r,",r. rou. puii.ingstalls insrarred as depicred on rhe pi";-;;il li"-"..I.'.ra'Lii.iu"sill," ..outlined by Mark xoegllr. A1I voted i, f.r.. Ji ,no"ron carried-
,ffi+ffi
=P]grtr
FoR RECREATToNAL BEACHLOTS
Mayor Hamilton: I would just like to make one comment. f agree with the*ll;l#r1?1if:."t*T" reclmmerxlation which woule be the iurar recreatron.r
.st.rrr r ias nor "..r.it'."u"r!'IiH"lil"rli.=:::;::=.t";*1 ?saJii!-iie citv
beachrots' r would like to strixe ;'uny ?ii,i.l" i.a= resurting from subdivisionshalr obtain permission to use the .""i"utionJr reachl0t from the Homeowners
L7
*q
t
)?
,
I-tI
o
City Council Meeting - June l, 1987
May I assume that these lots will be within the original
o
Association.'r The reason for that is if there are additionar homeowners oncethe subdivision takes place, I think that should come to the planning
Commission or to the Park and Rec Commission or to ourselves for review tofird out how many there are that are planning on using it. I don,t think r^rewant to suddenly find outselves doubling and tripling the use.
Counci lman BoyE: I agree with that. I kird of like tlre flexibility. I thinkit might be a way of answering the question without having to get iito that
mudr supervision ard that is that $re've arready indicated that those lot-s cannot be subdivided until the MUSA line goes through at which time that wilr
become an urban area. r think it shourd then farr into ttE urban recreational
tsach19! which would grandfather in people who were in the 50 original lotsbut additional rots would have to confonn to that urban stardard. r thinkthat I s vrtnt r.re uould erxl r4) doing an] ,ray.
Mayor Hamilton: somehow we wourd ne€d to let those peopre know what the rulesare so as the subdivision takes place, if they are going to be a part of it,what rures they need to live by and r think we may be out of it ai that pointbut I vrould r,rant to make sure that they do, through the Association, becomeaware of what the rules are ard how it effects their particular property.
r
Pat Svrenson:
subdivision?
@unciLman ceving: yes. Because they word subdivision throughout this.
Pat swenson: That's right but wetve seen variations of subdivisions beforeand r just vrant to make sure that there isn't going to be somebody ucioss tr,estreet trying to get in on this.
Mayor Hamilton: that's why r wanted to strike the rast sentence from therural beachrot so it crearly states that nobody from outside can be assumed tobe a part.
Counci lman Ceving: If you feel more comfortable about tJrat, we could writethat in as the intent in our Minutes tonight. rhe Minutes do get cairied overfor a number of years and that is out int6nt that it does not incrude anyonewtto is not in the subdivision.
councilman Johnson: r think we may have a problem converting from rurarsubdivision beachlot to an urban recreationir beachrot in that the starrlardfor urban says that at reast 80% of the dwerring units be within 1,000 feet.
I4ayor Hami.Iton: But those that are existirg will be grardfathered in.
Councilman Johnson: Ihose existing -will be grandfathered. Okay, tJ:en you got? L,SSS feet, h,ho gets the other 20t? you see what I mean? fie starrjird, -
r^rhat distance do you use in that conversion to say okay, you are outside lhatbut he says within the L,6gg f*t you still tnve gg? so you can have 20? of itoutside tfle 1,000 feet. tbw do hre divy up that 2OZ thatis within thedefinition?
L
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City @uncil tteeting - June 1, 1987
Councilman Bol.E: Jay, I would prefer to not change the urban recreational
beachLot definition.
Counci lman Johnson: llc, this would be urxier the rule. you would keep theurban as 80t but what I'm saying is you've got a subdivision here tha1,s 2,000feet deep. You're going to convert that from a rural subdivision to an urbansubdivision. At L,gTg feet you now bave a non--conformirg beachlot because g0?of the homes within that new subdivision thatrs been resubdivided, are nolorger within L,bgA feet of the beachlot. So tte beachlot is no longer
conforming to our Ordinance. A sirnple conversion h\cn r t sDrk.
l,layor Hamilton: It's a grandfathered thing. We don't know when that's goingto happen. It may not even be t)7e yeax 2ggg.
Counci lman Ceving: You dontt ever take away a trErson's rights that they've
aLready got. You lrDuldn't deny ttsn of that right.
Counci Iman Johnson: Brt the guy who has a lot 2,OgA f@t away, he subdivideshis lot. The guy who he subdivides it to, he is still within the same
subdivision that has a beachlot.
Councilman @ving: tE r.rould only be able to subdivide if the whole thing
now becornes within tte MUSA lire ard then tlre whole thing is opened up as an
urban subdivision. Itts not urban recreational beachlot.
l,layor fhmilton: I thilrk we may be talking about a moot thing here because the
way this [Erticular development is going to take place, I suspect that it may
never be subdivided.
Counci lman Johnson: this isn't for one particular suMivision.
l4ayor Hamilton: weII, it was certainly directed at one particuLar one ard
there may be others with the same tl4le of thing but it's highly unlikely atthis point since there is no lard left arourd the lakes in the city to build
on.
tb
f,-
l4ayor Hamilton: It,s probably going to be on a first built, first...
counci lnan Johnson r Another method to do it $rould be to, if you take Maz bythe ratios of 8g is equal to \qgT f@t, 100? would be equal io 1,250 feet soany lot more Oran I,250 feet away rarcuId not be eligible for that beachlot.
t-L
l9
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L
Councilman Johnson: Are we interdirg that everybody within ttE existingsubdivision, even if itts 2,gAU feet deep, when they subdivide aII those lots,
are we interding that this $/ill be on a case, the vray I see it, if we convertit ard grandfather it, the LOAO feet no longer counts. Itrs vrhatever the
confines of that subdivision are at that time. If aLl those lots are
subd ivided into two lots, everybody in that subdivision gets to go into t}Ie
beachlot.
oa
City Council },teeting - June l, l9B7
Counci lman Geving moved, Oouncilman Horn seconded to amend Article V, Section9 ( U.) as follovrs:
K.
l=
A recreational beachlot is intended to serve as a neighborhoodfacility for the s.rbdivision of whictr it is a part. For purposes ofthis section, the forrowing terms shalr **n uio". beachrots whichare located either within (urban) or outside (ruraL) the year 2\gqMetropolitan Urban Service Alea bourdary as depicted in tfreCcmprehensi ve plan.
AIso, to anerd the definition of recreational beachlot as follows:
tard abuttirry FlbI ic water whi.ch serves as a neighborhoodrecreational facility for the srrhdivision of *rich it--i" u p.t.
A1I voted in favor ard motion carried.
Urban Recreational Beachlot:At least eighty percent (gg?) of theweIIlng unr E, !,I al{[rtenant rights of access to anyrecreational beachlot,shall be located within one thousard (1,000)feet of the recreati onal beachlot.
Rural Rec reational Beachlot:A naximum of 50 d$relli rl,J units1ncLlng rrparl.an ots)be permi tted apprrtenant rights ofacEess to the recreational beachl ot.[,pon extension of the MUSA 1ineinto a rural area, the urban r ecreational beachlot stardard erillapply.
CONDI?IOML USE PERMIT REQUEST EOR A RECREATIONAL BEACHLOT,NORTHEAST CORNEROE TH lOI AND CR 14,GEORGE NELSON.
Jo Ann olsen: the beachrot proposar includes a sand branket, removar dock, acanoe rack, siltation bas-in ard vorreybarr court. ft" eranning dr;i=Ji* aiaapprove tie conditional use permit toi ttre iecieatronar beachl.t. with tnisthey changed cordition 6 to read tr.r.t ln" ,.lx-r"y shall be bituminous tosiltation basin and from the basin to -tirl't"r.""it
sharl be made of any coarsemateriar. They changed that from gruu"r uJ'E]*y added number 7 .J--6 =ayingEhat a homeo$rners associati.on must- u" ar"ut.a-L maintain and porice therecreational beachrot- Number g statd thailhoura a sirtation basin berequired by staff the exact l.cation i"a a-.Jrsi'of the siltation basin sharlbe submitted. Since the p-lanning C".* ii"io. ,i"eting the watershed Districthas also reviewed rhis and they Lve ;;;ilil; that instead of rhe frumethat is being proposed, there is a rittle iip- t-o tte pathway to direct thedrainage to the sirtation. basin, ti,"v ... "l'.ti"g that that $rirr not work sothey are recommerrlino " "!oII ""r". pip.-aori-io tf," siltation basin. IheapplicanE then stated that. they ,.rri -i."i!i^'to'-n ,r. a coarse materiar, gravermaEerial for the whole oath going down to *re Lte. Staff ard the WaEershedDistricr, asain wourd pierer'tirat ;;; ;;;; iitr*inou.. jusr Eo prevenr anyerosion ard washout from any drainage. W" .a" -ra*rnrerrling again, that thepipinq be instarred and the oath ..i.ln 'uitir.-i*r".
so you wourd be addingthat as number 9 ard then number I0, ,. ,orr.i'ljX" t" -.ad -tn"i-ti"ldii."na
must receive a DNR and Watershed District p";it.
t
2q
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/-+,
May 13, tg8}-rCITY OF Q". ooru,
EIIfiNHflSETN C.C. DATE: June I, 1987
CASE NO: 87-4 ZOA
Prepared by: Olsen/v
STAFF REPORT
Fz
o
=LL
ko
UJF
U'
Zoning Ordinance Amenilment to Article V,
Section 9 (LI) Standards for Conditions for
Recreational Beachlots .iltbn Dv LIty ,ldmlrisrEror
':'rar',.a /
PROPOSAL 3
TOCATION:
5 -!-3_\1_
APPLICANT :/-r_7
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENS I TY :
ADJACENT ZONING
AND LAND USE:
WATER AND SEWER:
PHYSICAL CHARAC.:
1990 LAND USE PLAN:
N-
s-
E-
w-
BACKGROUND
RECOMMEN DAT I ON
Urban Recreational B eachlot:
a
At least eighty percent
\dhi ch have appurtenant rightsbeachlot, shall be Iocated
( 1,000 ) feet of Ehe
t'
The Zoning Ordinance regulates recreational beachlots as a con-ditional use. One of the conditions of approval is that gOt ofthe lots which have appurtenant rights have to be wi.thin 1000feet of the recreational beachlot. A11 existing recreationalbeachlots are within the urban service area $rhiah has a minimumIot size of 15,000 square feet. The city recently reviewed arural subdivision with a proposal for a recreational beachlot.Rural subdivisions have a minimum 1ot size of 2.5 acres and the808 1ot requirement within 1000 feet is almost impossible tomeet. Therefore, the city initiated a zoning ordinance amendmentto differentiate between urban and rurar recieational beachlots.
ANALYSIS
St,af f is proposing to amend Article V, Section 9 (11), Standardsfor Conditions for Recreational Beachlots in agricultural andresidential districts. The amendment maintaini the same require-ments for urban recreational beachlots, but includes a sepaiatecondi.tion for rural recreationar beachrots. Rural recrealionalbeachlots will be Limite<i to 50 dwelling units r,rith appurenantrights and wiII not have an area restri;tion. Any ada-itionaldwerring units resurting from resubdivision wirl lrave to receiveappurtenant rights to the recreational beachlot from thehomeowners associat.ion or desginated governing body of the sub-division.
Planning staff recommends the planning Commission adopt thefollowing motron:
"The _Planning Commission recommends approval of Zoning OrdinanceAmendment #87-4 to amend Article V, Section 9 (11) as follows:
K. A recrearional beachlot is intended to serve as a neigh-borhood facility for the subdivision of which it. is ap3r!-. For purposes of this section, the follording termsshall mean those beachlots which are locat.ed eith6rwithin (urban) or outside (rural) the year 2000Metropolitan Urban Service Area boundary as depicted inthe Comprehensive p1an.
(808) of the dof access to a
welling units,ny recreat ionalwithin at least one Ehousandrecreat.ional beachlot.
2oning Ordinance Amendment,,/Beachlots
May 13, 1987
Page 2
O '{l
Rural Recreational Beachlot: A maximum of 50 dwellingunits ( including riparian Iots) sha1l be permitted appur-tenant rights of access to the recrear-ional oeachlot.
Any future lots resulting from resubdivision sha1l obtainpermission to use the recreational beachlot from the
homeowners association.
PLANNING COMMISSION ACTION
The Planning Commission unanimously approved the amendment to theRecreational Beachlot Ordinance as proposeal by staff and also
recommended that the definition of recreational beachlot be
amended as follows:
Land abuttingrecreationalpart.
public water which serves as a
facility for the subdivision of
ne i ghbor hood
which it. is a
Staff recommends the City Council amend Article v, Section 9 (1I)
as follows:
A recreational beachlot is intended to serve as a neigh-
borhood facility for the subdivision of which it is apart. For purposes of this section, the follovring terms
shal1 mean those beachlots which are located either
within (urban) or outside (rural) the Year 2000
Metropolitan Urban Service Area boundary as depicted in
the Comprehensive PIan.
K
Urban Recreational Beachlot: At least(808) of the dwelling units, which haveof access to any recreational beachlot,within one thousand (1,000) feet of the
oeachlot.
Land abutting public
recreational faci I i ty
a part.
which serves as athe subdivision of
eighty percent
appurtenant rights
sha1l be located
recreat ional
neighborhood
which it. is
Rural Recreational Beachlot:A maximum of 50 dwelling
units ( including riparian lots) shal1 be permitted appur-
tenant rights of access to the recreaEional beachlot.
Any future lots resuLting from resubdivision shall obtain
permission to use the recreational beachlot from tshe
homeowners association.
Staff also recommends the City Council amend the definition ofrecreational beachlot as f ollovrs:
r.rate f
for
Zoning Ordinance Amendment/Beachlots
May 13, L987
Page 3
CITY COUNCIL RECOMI\,IENDAT I ON
(o
Commission Meet i nq1987 - page 36
Jim Winkles: There is a sign band.
Brad Johnson: r think you have to rearize that if peopre go by the color ofili,ii:l;"Ii"::," to rnaie it roox sooil-na yo,;.;U;l;.,ih". brand name
f guess my only concern
. ff there is none, then IEnese guys? If not, then
Conrad:
is any.else of
REVIEW RURAL BEACHLOT STANDARDS.
(o
be signage on the canopy.Irm pretty com fortable.see you back in a couple
annLnqpril 82
wou 1d
thinkwerll
If there
Anyth i ng
weeks -
Olsen: I don,t have much to add. It,s.just ttlat I gave it the 50 dwellinosthat you mentioned tast time- -}I .; rrtorring futur6 rots erith futuresubdivision to stitl r,ur"-1t," .igr,rT # an" beachlot.
conrad: rs that realistic? wirr that be subdivided? More than rikery notso r guess I'm comfortaure wilir-tnJ"liuaiui=i"...ii.t.t..-.il."," my probremwi th how that reads-. rt r.eads ti,ut iJlun c-r_am 350 houses onto one lot andr go back to neiohhors and r go uu"r"io'traffic and r go back to otherthings so .m noi rear "o*ro.iuril"riii at. subdivisioi oi-tnut. rrmthrowing rhar out- r,* "o,oioil;;i"";t; the other stuff.Noziska: you don't think that will police itself?
Conrad: well, it probably erill. sooner or l.ater if you have I50 people whowant to pack rhemser ves into ;;"";';; what is rh.'ordi;.;ce saying? Theordinance is savino tha.t the crii-i? Z"nlnr,u.""n, regardless ot selfporicing' the citv ir cr,a-n-t.sJe,i'.Ji=TIi.r -riEerarly in Ehe rurure when ir;::;T::', Pi',i. i'=,':: Ifj{;i:r=:+,::i. is'u' il',3i1' .;'J";;; *,u t on".. ro t' J.
Noziska: f understand what you,re saying Ladd but...
conrad: we don't have any beachl0t in town right now that is servicing thatIiJl5;""S.:: ","X'.1""..'&J.;.tr""".,,tJ.T.t".:;;" ;i;:i':1"I"."i'si. no,, rr you
Olsen: Why I came up hrith tha t, in speak i ng with the Attorr;;'" i: "'. fl :.1 I ; ;, 3i;J. "1.i,l.",ff l: I i;ix ffi :?'" n r. : ":#, ?# :?,1j:.; ii l. "tuture and keepins Erack..r iii-ti"[.'-'w" i,i"t ..,";-.. ;;; concrusion rhattne easiesr way is jusr to n.irit-r.yuoiy io rrtr.! ;""-;; rhat beachlot.Noziska: And ret those brilliant homeowners take care of Ehe problemsil""Jf."'.1::,?i":;:"o::.v ;;;;;;1:;',::?"'. soine to juni r!? ro.= ,.,orEh or
conrad: The only thing r can see Howie is when developers come in here andEney say' hre'!ve jusE read your orain".rc"' and here is 6ne oui t,".. in the
Comm 1SS10n
1987 - Page
io
Meeting
37
(o
the 50. Maybe there is someone over here who hasto use it and they could sell it somebody else.it to 50 and they could raffle them or whatever
Emmings: Arl of these beachrots r.rill be maintained and run by a homeownersassociation- I agree with you thaE this makes me uncomfortable. That it's- in here. That $rerre saying do it. rt sounds rike we're saying go ahead anddo it. what if we just said, whether or not the subdivided-prop6rty wirl bePermitted a pertinent right of access to the recreationat beichiot tiif :- Ue
- up to the Homeowners Association. why donrt vre let them decide that.
Noziska: so if there is any squabbring, they will do it amongst themselves.
- Emmings: or if they get up to a point where they feel rike they havemaximum use, they can just say we're not going t6 tet anymore peopre. can
_ they have that power?
Dacy: one of the concerns is, with what werre going through now with someof the beachlots, other people down the shore on thL rake tarr up city Harr_ ?td.say, don't_ you have any restrictions or anything that you can do lolimit use on the beachrot down the shore becaule it-,s overised? rt dependson your degree of comfort for how much authority you want the homeowneis tohave and/or the city to have. rn your instancel -you,re rearly giving the- ent i re pol ice enforcement issue over to them and if tha t's whaiyou iant todo.
- Emmings: No. This says if they resubdivide every lot in Gagne,sdevelopment out there, they wift att be able Eo uJe the beachlot eventhough it had gotten over 50 houses and whaL r,m saying is, why don't $rejust say, if somebody subdivides, whether or not the ndw person coming in on- that Parcel will be allowed to use the beachlot wilI be up to the Hom6ownersAssoc i at i on .
I area that says I50 folks can come in. I have a simi Iar type of dealthe urban area and if you can theoreticall y say L5O, then you obviouslyink thatrs right and I say, we must have th ought it was right. WhaE wasthe purpose of restrictin g? The purpose is pressure of neighbors. Irm notworried about the lake to tell you the tr uth Boat access and al1 that otherstuff will be taken care o f through launch sit es and whatever so that's nota concern. I'm concerned with signals to othe r areas and maybe it doesn,tapply. Maybe itrs something real far tan gent. Is there a possibilit y tha twe can leave off that last sentence and a ddress it when it occurs?
- Dacy: So they can have their own little appl-ication process to go through?
Emmings: Or they can sellthe right who doesn't want
We could have still limibthey want to.
the
to
- Head.l.a: fihat do you think if somebody f rom r L/2 nires ahray r.rants to get inout there? Can they go in on it?
- Emmings: No. Because we've gotrecreational beachlot is i ntended
intent
serve
statement up there that says aas a neighborhood facility for
n n 1ng
riI 8,
the subdivision
HeadIa: Okay,
beachlots.
of which
thatrs A
it is a
and then
t(,
Commission Meet i ng
1987 - Page 38
((t
part.
you go down to rural recreational
E$mings: That statement of K governs both of those two.That's the statement of intent.
Conraal: So, if r.re take Stevers comments and weave that backstep after this would be?
Olsen: Bringing it in front of the planning Commission as aon May 13th.
Conrad: And r^rho r,rould vre inf orm?
To me anyway.
Headla: r like that opening statement of K but does that directry apply toboth paragraphs?
Emmings: sure. r don't know if we want to settre it but maybe we shouldinitially and then we can find out rater if it doesn't work and then let theHomeolrners Association manage who gets it.
Headla: I think r.re ought to have no parking.
Conrad: That's already there. Not in this document but. . .
Emmings: That's in the Beachlot Ordinance.
in, the next
public hearing
olsen: Al1 of the Homeowners Associations along the lake and everybodyelse. Itrs a public hearing.
Emmings: Again, isn,t this one of those issues for anybody that lives on alake out to knor^r? I would not get notice of this,
Dacy: I{e have r0 lakes. we courd be notifyi.ng over half the popuration.
Emmings: Does half our population Iive on 1akes?
Dacy: Werve got a lot of lake frontage.
Conrad: It's about 27?.
Erhart: But you're only changing the rural part of it.
Dacy: Yes, but yourre changing the whore ordinance. r don't think it wouldbe appropriate for the city to just notify the rural areas from the pubricperception s tandpo i nt .
Emmings: cour-d there at reast be a speciar notice in Ehe newspaper orsometh i ng?
Commission
1987 - Page
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Meeting
39
a
n nrn9i1 8,t
Dacy: Yes, but
nightmare.
to notify every private landowner on every lake vrould be a
Emmings: I guess the question is how interested arefrom people who are going to be directly affected.
you rn getting comments
_ Emmings: You put
and I didnrt know
I8 townhouses
about it until
assure you
di. rectly init was all
that they
my line of
over.
Dacy: They will be here. I can wi 11 be here.
sight across my lake
Dacy: But I think the
- many years, it's tops.
beachlot issue in Chanhassen has been going on for so
Emmings: But f don't trust people getting it by word of mouth.
and rural ere're limiting it toNoziska: On
a maximum of
conrad: so there
- something thatr s
this beachlot access, for urban
50 dwe).Iing units having access?
- Noziska: Shouldn't we be doing the same rules for both?
Conrad: They are different areas.
Olsen: One is spread out- They are completely different lot sizes.
Noziska: So youtre saying in an urban area, it's within a L,60A feet.
Conrad: The logic goes like this is you are trying to suPport it. Our
current Ordinance says L106A feet contiguous or whatever. So far, using
- that standard, the biggest beachlot group is Iike 44 so that's where the
We said, the L,gOg feet got us to a 44 type of limit so we rounded it off
59.
- Noziska: So they are equal .
is some kind of logic. Not a whole lot but there is
there.
50.to
Emmings: I take
_ sentence too .
it too that you are going to get rid of that second
RURAL STREET STANDARDS.
Dacy: We have real1y come full circle on this issue. The last time we
talked about it there were some good points made about looking at the length
-of the cul-de-sac. Looking at the number of lots to be served. Looking at
the amount of traffic to be used by private drives versus a standard public
- Olsen: Just the rural. Urban still is the sane conditions. 80t within
!,AOq feeE or how ever many are in that subdividioo.
Co.unciI t{eeting, Uarcn f t,i e5
Counci lroran atson trould be abre to ,"r.'"o'nnt
the question up as tortain and fix a fuel_injected
BiII
the
o
,he the r our
engine.
mai n teoance depertngng-/./:,.'-
l{onk repl.ied
vehicle after
Councill[an Horn
longer.
Counci lnsn Horntising.
tha t r.ith soDethe Ha!!anty.school ing there r.ould be no problen in naintainj.ng
felt that a V-5 engine iould be a ouch better vehicle and last
Counciloan Gevj.nq noved to accept the bid fron Thurk Brothers ForStation t{agon in the aoount of ,9,225.0O. ;;;i';rhe rollo,,ins vored i.n r.,""; ;"J::-;::.,.1:tt:" '.aa eeconded by
*arson. coui"rr,"n ;;";";;;;""]:r"i"li]i,lll;rcouncirnao c",ine'
the 198 5 Cetebrity
Mayor Hallti I ton.
and Councilro||tan
requested that the Couocil revie, specifiestions prior to adves_
*:+#**s ii.,, *r@.,,; : : i, : "l : :. : :
"
I : ; : : ff : : :;
"
i i ;
"
:, ; : I i I ; .
.
" T I : " ;: i I
"
: i I ;, " ";:,;:,:1,::,:;;"":.,;;,i;;,1".:l;"j:";iiiJo-.1i,","on, counciroJn,"", "", Geyins.
ffiHxsr-"'.*,T,:;;: t'* To sr x TEEN PERs,irs r! Ar{ R-'IA :q
;:::"1::"i'1.:::.:;::i::::;,;;,",:;:;ii"i;ii:;"i"'l;:.:::'":,":::""i1";:;":""i:;:.,'-
oE othe*ise resurarry ,";;i;;;';""'"1 llil'lll: public or private, rhich ror sain
r::.:;iii'l:::,.i:I;:,"i:ii:::::-,i,,::i;.:":;;::,::i:": ::;iiri"ri;Il.;::;lii::'
r"r:'i;il;",r::.;:i:iif"i,,iil,t;:I;::.,i;,;:":rijiiiii:,"-ii,"il,i,,iii;
IrEternity shelters, qrchildten. , -_oup hones, residential prograEs or schoo.ls for handicappedGroup hones, trhich is 1are. geoerslly lz to lg
subiect for request tonight, are intended for residents rhoprobleos that require ryears of age '.ith behaviorar, "r.a,"n"i,
'lio'zol
r"rirvopen conDunity "uttinoi"tttment'
but aae not s.
r,ieser ,n"-;i,.;;;.;;:;,,1:",:;i::i':;,i:#:li.,ii:":i:i:"1!"':"i::i; i;;:":,::,;"reconnending approval oF rhe regueer; ;;";;;;'l use and a conditionar use. staff is;':il;': iiliil lii;,,0.111"':t ;;;';:. ;;'; ';";:;""'::: lll",li,"'"""i",:: ::':l::;lii
;:;1.;:t:ji :j;;:::,j::ijij';i;"Ij,::i"iilil":,:i:: ;j;;i;j;ii:.1"","i;';-.;;;;;;,
1:":"": of conDunity app!ehension, oany p!oqram in a single fanily neiohborhood.sprrsely popula ted a reaHost of these psrcers "".' 'n the R-tA tl;;;t";" are siting these facilities in
racilities have ro o" ,i::-t:^:t:"' tt"ttt'iilLt' the mininuo lot size is 2l acres'
r{innesota Department ort:un:"0 uy trre Iinnesoi."'n't" lot area ' Thesa type of
Dult nunber of persons or'l"1tn ""' '"""i , ,
"
J I
"
' " ',"
t t ' u n t of Hunan Services ' rhe
state statute, it is "u:-:.0":"
nott "iouii"J.t"t"t'
and HouBinq codes' The rnaxi-
At the planninq corrl""ill"ended that ,n.-""-roi,specifically regulated. To nirror
the ordin6nce Anendoent
on. Heeting, tn" ,r"."r", t"nal use allo', up to l6 persons'
subrect ro rhe folro,"i"l ::lli;:;::.recoi,Dended approvar of
l. Corrpl iance rith stat1. co"pri",,"l ;i;; i;::: l'::1:,"n fequirenents
). AnnusI revie,. local
bui lding "no ri."
"ooJ".:. co,opri""".'Jit;";:;,::-.1..:s.and fire codes.
r. one and ";":;;;r";;i:ance
I0A, Individuar se,! spacing requireDent. '"n" r'eatnent Systeos'
tto
L-
t
-2-.
I
cl(otoc !
TEGULAR CHANHASSEN CIT
r,tARcH Ll, 1985
Hayor Hami l, ton
to the Flsg.
l,lembe rs Present
TOUNCIL
MEEIING
called the meeting to order. The meeting ras opened rith the pledge
o
I Councilnan
CouncilDan
Horn, Council.ronan Watson
Geving
llembe r Absent
Councilraofian Snenson
Staff Present
Don
Bilt
Ashrorth, Barba ra Dacy,
llonk , Roge r Knutson,
APPR0VAL 0F AGENDA: l,layor Hanilton Doved to approve the agenda as presented trith
the addition of Signage and Resiqnati,on discussj.ons. otion nas seconded by
CouncilBan Horn. Ihe folloning voted in favo!: l,layor HaniIton, Councilrooen liatson,
Councilaen Hoan and Geving. No negstive votes. Motion carried.
CoNSENT AGENDA: Councilman Geving noved to epprove the fol,loiring Consent Ageoda
Pu!chaae of CPT Equiprent
Proclama tions, Mayor
l. Nstional Volunteers of Anerica l{eek
2. Al'erican Aasociation of University llooen's Week
iteosr
1.b.
I.c.
I
t Motion l.las seconded by
Haoi I ton , Counci Irolnen
l{otion car!ied.
Counci lvroman l{atson, lhe folloning
liatson, Couneilnen Horo and Geving.
voted j.n favor ! Mayor
No negative vote3.
AWAflD 0F BID5: A
Vac-AIl Uni t, for
thal the purchase
facilities,
brief discussion tras held oo the purchase of the I985 Truck
the Utitity Departnent. The overa.l.l feeling of the Council
ra9 needed to handle energencies and lor futuae expansion of ci ty
RES0LUTI0N I85-09r Mayor Hamil,ton noved the adoption of a resolution accepting the
bid for a Utility Pump Truck from Flexible Pipe Tool Company in the anount of
t4I,986.00 . l{otion tras seconded by Councilrodran l{atsoo. The foltoring voted in
favor3 l.layor HaEilton, Councilrooen l{atson, CouncilEen Horn and Cevinq. No negative
votes . l,lotion carried.
I985 Adlninistrative Vehicler Thi.s i,teI ras tabled at the Februa!y 25, 1985, meeting
seeking clarificati,on of the station nagon bids. The oain question r6s vrhethet it
r,ould bs better to have a V-6 engine versug a 4 cylinder engine. Don Ashlrorth stated
that the dealerships that r.ere contacted did not sholr an interest foE bidding on the
7-pase!nger van type vehicl,e.
Roger (nutson cevietred the specifications on the bids received. His findings ,eEe
that the Council iould have to accept the lol. bid given by Thurk Erothers on the4-cylinder station lragon - 19,?25.OO or seject all the bidE and adverti,se specifi-
cally for a V-6 engine autonobile. Don Ashrorth st6ted that this process r.ould take
around 5 to I ieeks time.
and
rias
I
Council eeting, Ma.ch
Horever,
possible
lesponse
St. Louis
!esearch
district.
fl o1.985 t
gome of the conmissioners vrere concerned that the Council, should be arate ofconditions that you could apply to e group home in the R_IA area. So, into their request, stafF contacted Eden prairie, HinneapoLia, l,linnetonka andPark as they have experience in issuing group hoEe faci,lities. 0urhas indicated that the facility Deets the zoning requireoents in the
Louldn't it
holle ioul.d
Earb Dacy I That may
less is a permitted
Councilman
X nutson I
9o to apeak.
Horn:Councilman
that it should be
Gevinq: l{hy does it have to be at least a number of seven (7)
be possible that oves a period ol !ine iith transfers in andhave J,ess thEn seven (7) at sore particular poiot?
I do not have a probleD l.ith the coDcept ofliDited to ten individuals and not sixteen.
to
out
qual i fy ?
that the
ol
group homes, but I feel
Roqer
no t ,
or may
u3e.
not be possible, but because by state statute, six (6)
If they have one (1) to six (6) ttrey can go in if you like it or
l,lavo! Hanilton. I believe l6 is acceptable if reviewed onhorreve!, I rould .l,ike the annual revie, p!ocess to be ooreconducted by the City Council es a public Hearing process.
an individuaL basis,
specific in thEt it bE
SysteDs.
t
llayor Hanilton noved the passage of the Zoning 0rdinance AoendDent for Group HoEesfor seven to sixteen persons in the R-lA oistrict complying rith the reco,oDendationsof the Planninq Co,nmission, Anendment gequeet g5_l: l. Section 6.04 (Uses byConditional lJse peroit in the R_la, Agri,cultural Residence Distri.ct) for group hooesfor 7-16 personsi and 2, Section 4 (RuIes and Definations) to add the follotring3GrouD Hone: A state Iicensed residentiar faciLity rhe!e pe!son3 feside fo! purposesof r e h a b i I i t a t j. o n , treatment or special case. Such persons Day be orphaned, sufferchemical. or eDotr.onal iDpairment, or suffer social maladjustDent or dependency, andthe Staff.s suggestions, ite,ns I_5:
t.
t.
4.. 5.
Compliance iith state licensing requireoents.
CoEpLiance xith Local building and fire codes.Annual !evier p!ocess, being a public hearing p!ocess.CorpLiance l.ith 0rdinance lOA, Individu"f Su""q. IreatDent0ne and one-halF Ej.le spacing reguisel!ent.
llo ti on tra9 geconded by
llaoi I ton , Councilxooen
ll.o-t i o n carried.
CONDI IIONAL USE PERM
Counei.IDan Geving.
llatson , Counci lmen
following voted
and S6ying. l{o
in fa vor I
negative
llay o r
votes.
I]'O FLYING CL OUD DRIVE.
The
Hoan
HI D-A}IER I CA EAPIIS T SOC I AL SE RV I CES C ORPORAT
GROUP HOME FO R TEN PERSONS,
I0N t
II FOR A
garbare Decv: The site is on the north side of Flying Cloud Drive, or US Hyy Zl2 andthe parcel rotals app.oxi.Dately l0 ac!es!. rn" l."u"piio;_;;r;;;;, is located on thenorth side of Hiqhray 2Iz. The pFoposal is For a q";.o_;";;-;;i.ro oor". The sub_t iect property nor contarns five (5) exist
I structu"" "on,.inrng I bedrooms, 2 full b, 9 structurest Brdq ll: a three-stoEy
t Februsry 8, I985, The public safety 0irec]throo'rs' 2 half-baths' and ' basenent- 0n
I building and deternined that the house ,"lot."no Buildinq Iospectos inspectEd the(- a.r"ctois] r-.;;;;;., snd orhe.rino. ite"i:::;;'..:::,1.";:"i,,:::il:;: ";l;r:';::this is a garaqe, rrhich the roof is fallirrepair rhe uuiiaine. Erde ,r, this is ,,jl_il;rrjl :: ll",::rl::;;,,;"1^::,:"j.0,structurally uosafe. Bldg l4: an old grainery, snd ooy be ugcd to house anilnals
lo
ocrry OF
EH,INIiAESEI[
!". oor., Feb. 27, I98s
\
C. C.. DATE: March 4, I985
!
casE NO.: 85-1 Zoning Ord.
Amendmen t
STAFF REPORT
Fz
OJ(LL
ko
trjt-
U)
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENSITY:
ADJACENT ZONING
AND LANO USE:
WATER ANO SEWER
PHYSICAL CHARAC.:
N-
S-
E_
w-
zoning Ordinance Amendment (Public Ilearing) to allow
group homes for 7 or more persons in the R-la,Agricultural Residence District.
iction by Clty Administctor
Date Submified to Commissio!
Mid-American Baptist Social service -ilt s+.'rttd !'ffiit-
PROPOSAL:
LOCATION:
APPLICANT:
Endor.e
D,
_3 /.?s-
LloditiEd-
Rejs.tec-
I99O LAND USE PLAN:
,/<-
a
Zoning Orilinance Amendment-Group Eomes
February 25, 19 85
Page 2
APPLICABLE REGULATIONS
BACKGROUND
a
Subd. I of the above referencedstatute allows a state licensed"resiilential facility,' for 7 to 16persons as a permitted nulti-family use.
A "residential facility" r irS defined by statute, means:
"Any facility, public or private, which for gain orotherwise regularly provides one or more perions witha 24 hour per day substitute for care, f"6a, foaging;training, education, supervision, habilitation; ;;h;:bilitation, anai trealment ttrey need, but which forany reason cannot be furnished in the person's ownhome. Residential facilities include, but are notlimi.ted to: state institutions under the control ofthe commissioner of public welfare, foster homes, --
residential treatment centers, maternity "r,"if"il,group homes, residential programs, or schools forhandicapped chi ldren. ,, -
"Group homes,' are intended foryears of age with behavioral,that require treatment but arein an open community setting.
residents
emotionalnot so sever as
who are generally 12-18and/or family problemsto prohibit living
ANALYS IS
The number of persons residing in a group home shoulil trigger a dif_ferentiation between a permit[.ed "".-ina a conditional use. As men-tioned earlier, a home ior six or fewei persons is a permitte. singlefamily use by state statute. Homes for seven or more persons is notaddressed bv srarute. in. single familv districts. i;-p5;iti.d througha conditional use, which- dictates siie plan review, ti."r-io. z ormore persons wirl be evaluated in terms'of its :,o.iti"",-rJi ...",access, and suitability of soils for septic systems ;;;'*;ii=.
Althouqh defined as a "group home", the proposed use is essentialry asingle-family use in tnit pirsons t"iii-u" utilizing a singre dwerringunit with single kitchen ficilities.
Minnesota State Statutes ( 462.357,Subd. 7) allows a state licensed"residential facility" as a per-mitted single family use for 6 orfewer persons in single familydistricts.
a 'a
oning Ordinance Amend.men t-G roup Homes
February 25, 19 85
Page 3
It has been the intent of state legislation to locate licensedresiilential facilities in single-family neighborhoods; however,
because of community apprehension, many programs are siting group
homes and other Iicensetl residential facilities in sparsely popu-lated areas to mitigate community concerns.
Much of the R-la district is l-ocated in theWhile the minimum 1ot size is 2l acres, mosttially exceed. the minimum lot area resultingsities.
rural service area.parcels substan-in very low den-
It should also be notecl that these types of facilities must belicensed by the Minnesota Department of Iluman Services, the
Minnesota Department of Health, anil local fire-safety anil housinginspectors.
The maximum number of persons in a group
ca11y regulated. It is recommended thatstatute and allow up to sixteen persons.
hone shoultl be specifi-the city mirror state
It is also recomnended that
Ordinance as follows:
a group home be defined in the Zoning
Group Home :A state licensed resiilential facility where personsreside for purposes of rehabilitation, treatment or special care.
Such persons may be orphaned, suffer chemical or emotional impair-
ment, or suffer social maladjustment or ilependency.
To follow on the agenda is a specific conditional use permitrequest for a proposed group home. If the Planning Commission
recommends denial on the Zoning Orclinance Amendment, the con-ditional use permit request woulal not be consiilered.
RECOMMEND AT I ON
1 Section 6.04 (Uses by Conditional Use Permit inAgricultural Residence District) for group homes
persons; and
the R-1a,
for 7 to 16
2. Section 4 (Rules and Definitions ) to add the following:
Group Home: A state licensed residential facility where
sons reside for purposes of rehabilitation, treatment orcial care. Such persons may be orphaned, suffer chemicalemotional impairment, or suffer social maladjustment or
dependency.
per-
spe-
or
Planning staff recommends that the Planning Commission adopt thefollowing motion:
"The Planning Commission recommends approval of Zoning Ordinance
Amendment Request *85-1 to amend:
o
Amendment- Group Homes
o
Zoning Ordinance
February 25, 19 85
Page 4
The Commissioners unaninously recommended the City Councilapprove the zoning ordinance Amendment is r".o. "nded by staffand in_addition, staff shoula proviae-a thorough ,"port,tI-in.council on any.specific conditions ttral snoura-u"-.IJ.-r"i iti"type of use prior to issuance or " "onaitionar use--p"i.iI. 'tn.motion was made by Conrad .na ""c"nJJi-iy afuee.
PLANN ING COMMI SS I ON ACT ION
STAFF' UPD ATE
Should the Council feelnecessary, the following
As noted earlier in the report,by several state agenci"s-;i;;;these facilities must bewith loca1 approval.
rn an attempt to respond to the comnission,s concerns, staff hascontacted cities with specific Aroup ho*e "*pe.i"rr".. EdenPrairie, Minneaootis, Minnetonki, -iia"ii. Louis park vary intheir regulatiois of group homes. ninieapof i.s has many grouphomes and therefore requiies .onalti"n"i use permits for homesover 5 persons in single family ai.stiicts. r.l-inn""po f i"-.iJorequires a half-miIe lpacing r6srir"-"ii and an annual review ofeach group home througi, . piurid-h;;;il; process. The remainderof the cities foLlow it,. ,!,guiiii"".-ii'"t.te starutes.
As a single familv use, staff feels that group homes shoulilthe zoning requir6ments for the n_i"-Ji"trict just like anysingle family use. therefore, "p""ifii-r"ning requirementsas 1ot size, setbacks, etc. shouid ""i-U" increased for thisof us e.
meet
othe r
such
type
licensed
conditions for group homes aresuggested list:
homes27, L985
thatisa
1
2
3
4
5
lomOliance with state licensing requirements.Compliance with tocal uuiraint'ana=iiiJ'""a.".Annual review process.
Compliance with Ordinance 10A, Individual, Ser.rage TreatmentSystems .
One and a half mile spacing requirement.
Appl i cat ionExcerpt from State StatutesExcerpt from ,,Zoning News" regarding groupPlanning Commission minutes aitea n5Uiuary
i
I
I
1.
2.
3.
4.
REPORT ATTACHMENTS
oa
I{INUTES
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMI\,IISSION
FEBRUARY 27, 1985
Chairman Ryan ca1led the meeting to order at 7:34 p.m.
lilembers Present
James Thompson, Susan
Thompson.
Albee, Ladd Conrad, BiII Ryan, and Mike
Members Absent
/
zonin Orilinance Amendmen t Re uest f85*1 to amend the R-la
A r iculturall.es dence Distr t toa Iow rou homes for 7 orersons as cond.l-tonal uses M id-Am er].can Ba pt j.st, appl ].Can t
1
more
Public Pres ent
Darrell E. Nolden
Ted HassePhil Engh
Chuck Gabr ielson
Joe ElmgrenJustine ehi llips
Roman RoosHarolil Hesse
13 50 Flying Cloud Drive
630 W. 96th Street
Carver County Social Servicesapplicant
I2 2I BIuff Creek Drive52 Von Hertzen Ct.1034I Heidi Lane
Dacy explained that !,tinnesota State Statutes a1lows a statelicensed "residential facility" as a permitted single family usefor 6 or fewer persons in single family alistricts. she statedstate statutes provide for homes for 7 to 16 persons as a permittedmulti-family use. She explained that group homes are inteidedfor residents $rho are generaLly 12-18 yearl of age withbehavioral , emotional and/or family problems thai require treat-ment but are not so severe as to prohibit living in an open com-munity. She stated that a group home should be defined in theZoning Ordinance as a state licensed residential facility wherepexsons reside for purposes of rehabilitation, treatment or spe-cial care or for such persons who may be orphaned, suffer ctremi-ca1 or emotional impairment, or suffLr social maladjustment ordependency. She stated that the intent of state letislation hasbeen to locate licensed facilities in single family neigh-borhoods; however, because of community apprehension, minyprogl?,n: are siting group homes and other l_icensed residentialEacr.J-rtres rn sparsely populated areas to mitigate community con-cerns. She also noted that these types of facilities must belicensed by the Minnesota Department of Human Services, MinnesotaDepartment of Health, and 1ocal fire-safety and housing inspec-tors.
)l-r
Tom Merz and Howard Noziska
PUBLIC IIEARING
Conrmiss ion Minutes27. 1985
o
has been at theproblem $rith any ofthen to bother theopen and coopera-
the public hear ing .
possibly settinqdid not want to bebe researcheil
o
Planning
February
Page 2
Chuck Gabrielson, Executive Director and Administrator ofYid-Anerican Baptist, stated that the ma.in trre -iiciri tv-i"-i"' reparentins ro.nJ"'l= l'";:':.:l:uo:ili.u'"either the parents were uiable or-,ririii:.ng-to--;o;;;;i'.il'i""=and needed more supervision than ttr"y-r"r" getting in the home.Ee stated that the ages range from 13 to fz-veiis,"il ;; ;;"usually 16 to 17 years old.
Mr. Roos asked how many homes like this were in existence and ifthe boys had criminal iecords inJ -trr.-I."er ity of such.
Mr' Gabrierson stated. that armost all 0f them had minor juvenilerecords. IIe stated that they ao n"t-"J!"pt kids ,t,o ii.'"tJmicarlydependent or have osychotic 6"h;"i;;. --ie stated that thes- boyscan Iive in the comminity ;r;-;;;i;-iike a rural setting.
Earold Hesse asked how much control there was to keep the kidsfrom r+alking away from the t""iiiiy. -"--
Mr. cabrielson stated that in the 3| years
lrg*" ol Hwy. 5 and Hwy. 41 he his ""t'i,lathe neighbors and does not see any ."."o.,neighbors. rie stated that he ,.nt.a-tl"u"tive as possible with the ,;igh;;;;: --
Albee moved, seconded by J. Thompson to closeAlL voted in favor and lhe ^"ii"i-""rri"a.
The Commissioners were mainly concerned aboutsome restrictions fol !!ris type ot use. Theytoo restrictive yer rert trrat'iafie-ii'snou:.afurther.
he
onefor
as
Conrad moved, seconded by A1bee to recommend approval of ZoningOrdinance Amendment Requist * AS_i-t"*Ii""a,
I Section 6.04 (Uses by ConditionalAgrrcuLturaI Residence District )personsi and
_Use Permit in the R-Ia,for group homes for 7 to
2.Section 4 (Rules and Definitions) to add the following:
G rou p Home:sons residecial care.emotional im
dependency.
.A state Iicensed residential facility wheretor. purposes of rehabiritation, -iiliiiluit
",such_persons may be orphaned, ""ii"i
-.i"^:.".r
palrment, or suffer soiiat .if"aj"=i.."i ".
16
per-
spe -or
AIso, staff should provide acondrtions should be made forconditional use permit. A1i -
carried.
thorough report onthis use prior tovoted in favor and
what specific
issuance of athe motion
)_CITY OF
EIiA}iIifiSETN
SIAFF R=PORT
P.C. DATE: Jan.
C.C. DATE: Feb. 8,
CASE NO: 88-2 ZOA
Prepared by: Dacy/v
<.
PROPOSAL:To Amend th
Courses asAgricultura ac
1E
oning Ordinance To permit Golfondit.ional Use in the A-2,state District
I >t-D
Fz
()
=(LL
*-
LOCATION:
APPLICANT: City of Chanhassen
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
I)ENSITY:
N DJACENT ZONING
AND LAND USE:N-
s-
E-
w-
ITJATER AND SEWER:
I'IIYSICAL CHARAC. :
]OOO LAND USE PLAN:
ko
hJF
CN
ZOA for Golf CoursesJanuary 20, 1988
Page 3
The Bluff Creek Golf, Course receives access t.hrough a residentialneishborhood on CreekwS:q-Dri;;;-'ii.-iorr course $ras ar rhecenter of the road improvement issue-oi'Creekwood Drive as to howmuch rhe solf course-:t::tq b. ;;;;;.;ibre for payins forCreekwood Drive's improvement. ttr6-iocation of the golf coursewas also a major facror in the .";i.;-;i the Bluff creek creenssubdivision reouesr which was appi"i.a"iy the council in March,+?:!. -rhis re{uest consistea ;F';;";r:"rion of thirteen 2I acreIots along the golf :our:e_ property as welf as the creation ofsix 2i acre rots adiacenr ro pione6r-r."ir. -rn"i:J i""Io"iil""tionthat if rhe Btuff cieek Gorf a;;;;;'";;;rrred an appricariontoday, the citv would requi." Jii"It-II.u"" ao a corrector road-hray instead of gaining access ttrroutfr-J residential development.
The City Council requested the planning Commission to evalute theappropriateness of gorf course" in r-rr.'a-2 District and to pro-vide some guidelines as to their focation. Given Ehe .r.."itstate of the ordinance, the BIuff-a;;;k Greens colf Course isnon-conforming' rf expansion ,.."-iJ-oe proposed or improvementmodifications to be proposed, " "i.i"n"" application would haveto be processed ro airow a ";.:.;;i;;;in9 o". ro expand. rheCouncil adopted rhe plannint-d;i;;i;ii= .""o*.ndarions forstandards for dri.ving ranges. Some of tt,u". .orrJitiJiI..Iri.:o"tas appropriate' Therefore, it is ieclmnended trrit -an""pi.ini.
rgCommission consider amending ar,"-a_i-ii"trict to permit goLicourses subject ro the fo1l6v;ing
"onAiiiorr=,1' Access must be obtaiaed from a collector or arterial streetas idenrified in Arric:-e vi, i".iiJi zs.
Sumna r
Hours of operation shall be from sunrise Eo
go 1f
Cedar
RECOMMEND ATI ON
11"^n^"::: septic sysrem and well facilitiesrn contormance $rith ordinance N". iO:e.-
.1':.' '1 .i n!,t
Provided \i
2
3
sunset.
sha11 be
The Zoning Ordinance already provides for parkingtor a golf course use.requLrements
Because of Ehe land requirements.areas in other communicies. i;;'Prairie is an example.
courses exist in ruralHills 9o1f course in Eden
:liffilfl"";:ff"l:'"*'"nds the Prannins commission adopr rhe
"The planninq Commission recommends approval of Zoning OrdinanceAmendmenr Re6uest es-z to-JiIil";: iISl on.r.urrural EsrateDistrict Uo jaa golf courses as a conaitional use subject to the
ZOA for GoIf CoursesJanuary 20, 19ggPage 4
following standards:
1. Access must be oU!ai1e! from a collector or arterial streetas idenrified in Artici"-vi;' 6"IIii" zs.
2. Hours of operation sha1l be from sunrise to sunset.
3. AdeguaEe septic :yitem and well facil-ities shall be providedrn conformance wilh orainance-i"l-ii,_s -
ATTACHMENTS
1
2
3
4
5
6
Planning Commission minutes dated ApriI 22, Igg7.City Council minutes dated May 4, i6A;.city council minures a"t.J ll"i"n;.;';;', tgg7 .Copy of 19 72 Ordinance.Copy of Ordinance 80-8.Copy of Land Use p1an.
I
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
AUGUST 3, 1988
Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m..
Erunings, Annette ElIson, Ladd Conrad,MEMBERS PRESENT:
James wi ldermuth
Tim Erhart, Steven
and Dav id Head Ia
MEMBERS ABSENT: Brian Batzl i
STAFF PRESENT: Barbara Dacy, City Pl-anner; Jo
City Planner; Larry Brown, Asst. City Engineer
Consul tant
OIsen, Asst.
Ered Hoisington, City' s
CHAPTER OF THE
ACROSS TH 5, CITY
Ann
and
PUBLIC HEARING:
COMPREHENSIVE PLAN
COMPREHENSIVE PLAN
OE' CHANHASSEN.
Publ ic Present:
Name
AMENDMENT TO AMEND THE TRANSPORTATION
TO IDENTIFY THE REALIGNMENT OE TH 1OI
Address
Mark Senn
Rome Roos
Don T. Smi th
Mike Wi ttroc k
Dre$, & Melanie Wr ight
Gene Heikkinen
Greg Gmi terko
Grace Johnson
Jack Atk i ns
cary Di schBill Streepy
El i zabeth KerschJeff & HoIIy Peters
Bruce & Cindy Marengo
Sharon Loeckler
Tom LehmannLarry Guthr ie
Jim Ler"ri s
Jan Coey
Janine Ri ngdahl
B i I l- Dav i s
Ivan C. JohnsonJeffery Cook
Gene BorgUIrico sacchet
Brad Johnson
7800 Park Drive
1450 Park Court
8012 Erie
8922 Dakota Avenue
320 Sinnen Circle
30I sinnen Ci rc le
8I21 Hidden Court
314 3 Marsh Drive
22q west 78th Street
8I7 0 Marsh Drive
321 sinnen Circle
27I Hidden Lane
8120 Hidden Court
8150 Marsh Dr ive
8028 Erie Avenue
330 Sinnen Circle
529 3590 west 8oth, Bloomington
813 3 Dakota Lane
Taco ShoP
8032 Erie Avenue
Minnetonka
7 910 Dakota Dri ve
1800 Meritor To!'rer
90 Lake Drive East
8071 Hidden Ci rcle
7425 Frontier TraiI
Chairman Conrad called the publi.c hearing to order.
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 2
Dacy: staff would rike to present our report in the folrowing manner. rrdlike to have Ered Hoisington, the City's consultant regarding the year
2005 Transportation study make a presentation first to- overview theproject for the Commission and then I'd Iike to follow that up withstaffts recommendation on the comprehensive pran Amendment apllication.
Fred Hoisington: Mr. chairman, members of the pranning commission, it'sbeen qui.te a long time since we were here and discussing the broaden studyarea. A rittle ronger ago than we rearry hoped the interval would be. wehoped we wourd be back much sooner. r know you've had a chance to reviewthat, re-review that again and rrm not going to go over it in detair. Thegood folks who are behind me here have heard it fwice arready so r knowthey aren't interested in hearing me run through the whole piesentationagain. But let me teII you a liitle bit about, first of ali tneobjectives of this pran amendment and TH 101, as we saw it in the broadenstudy area were really three. one, to provide some continuity in the wayof a north/south roadr.ray, major roadway through the City of Chanhassen andas it turns out, TH r01 is piobabry the onry 6ption tna't the city has toprovide that kind of continuity a1r the way from north towards the south.To. provide the acceptable levers of service on TH 5 primarily at theintersections where rre have continued to struggled tirroughouE the courSeof the studies that we've done with trying to get the level of servicedown to the point where traffic could .o,r" in ihe yeax 2005. when we lookat it today, we know of some traffic problems aloni ru 5 but itrs a littlehard to visualize what it will be lika in yeax 2g05 when we have at reasttwice and in some cases 3 or 4 times as much traf f i.c as we,re experiencingtoday. Another thing that hre Spent long hours on because the broadenstudy area was done in conjunction with the downtovrn area, or kind of spunout of the downtown studies, had to do with the separation of traffic.separating through traffic from downtown traffic. Not wanting those whodonrt have to go downtoi.rn, to be forced to go there. so those are rearr-ykind of the broad objectives that this prorposal for a new alignment oi tn101 our i.ntent to keep. rn rooking trrrough- the broaden study area,remember that we had kind of a trs" curve iort of configuration for this,or for TH 101 at TH 5, and that proposal is no longer ialid. We hope youhad a chance to rook at this one. irris ;s almost, r think this is i tr,iiaor fourth generation alternative now in that it is geometrical-Iyconfigured in a manner that takes or goes more throigh the center of theKerr property in the south leg but leaves the north ieg basicalry intactas it.was originarry. proposed. originarry we had hoped that we courd usea portion of Lake Dri.ve East as part of the TH 101 uiign,n"ni. We knowyourve got some concerns about that and the alignment 6xisted but this isa very difficurt stretch to engineer. rn part because of some of the
:li:?: -!1.: the neighbors have told us or expressed concerns over, we haveconE.rnuect to rook at arternati ves and lr lerr you a little bit aboutthose later- But this is the alternative that pi"""n tiy - i. -b"to.. you oris a more detailed version of whatrs before you tonight'in the e/ay of aplanned amendment. Just before ere met with the neigf,uors-'tie rast time vrewere abre to, we received some information from our traffic engineers, JimBenshoof and Associates, having to do with the throujh ,no""*"r,t. that needto be accomodated on TH ro1. Just summariry what ;ii r"Ji."led was thatthere \^rould be about L,2qg to r,230 vehicrei approact i"g-ih.t intersectionfrom the north and south during the peak trour oi tn" J"y, -rni"n is the
Planning Commission Meet ingAugust 3, 1988 - page 3
p.m. peak. Of those, 800 r^rould go through the intersection. Of those,565 originate outside the study area, outside Chanhassen for the mostpart, past all- the way through and go out the other side of the studyarea,. werre tarking about a fairly appreciabre number in the yeax 2oo5 ofpeople needing to pass'through the study area and of course th;t's in partwhat the function of this street is intended to accomodate. on the fiistwe received another report from Jim, we have been trying to get thesepiecemeal as best we could, that dealt with what we term the north 1egoption as an alternative to this approach to dealjng with TH 101 and iH 5.What that north leg option does is uses the north leg and then use thisTH 5 to the h,est and then creat plains or present TH I0l south. So whatit does is puts all, in year 2AA5, al-:- 8OA of those folks that want to gothrough that intersection, on TH 5 and forces it to take both TH 5 and THI0I traffic for that stretch. What Jim has surprisingly concluded,surprising to me because I didntt think we had even a ghost of a chance ofthat working in this case, was that from a pure traffic standpoint, itrsconceivable that we could engineer something that wiII allow that northleg option to work. Herers what it would take. It rrould take two leftturn lanes from the east bound movement on TH 5 to the south bound
movement on Great Plains and two Ieft turn movements on east bound TH 5 tonorth bound TH I01. It hrould caII for the elimination of the right turnIanes at this intersection. The free righE turns because we couldnrtafford to have people weaving across in that relatively short distance,I,ggq or so feet. I wish we could say right now that that rrould work andthat we could get approval from MnDot for that kind of approach. MnDot'sindications have been historicall-y that they would not be interested or
would not entertain that kind of proposal. Hov?ever, we will continue toexplore that with them because we think it is warranted that we continueto Look at that alternative and to look at others. I guess all I want todo is tell you that it's not as clear cut because it does take a complete
Iane from this j.ntersection do$rn through Great Plains in order to
accomodate it and there are some serious questions associated with thatthat only MnDot can... lle know therers a lot of opposition to thisproposal from the folks who live further to the south. This is not an
easy decision and we certainly donrt envy you having to make it or do r^re
envy the Council having to make the decision.
Erhart: Fred, can I ask you a question? On thj.s north route yourre stillproposing to move the intersection that yourve shown. EssenEially to movethe intersection $rhere the proposed...to use TH 5 as designated TH 191?
Fred Hoisington: Thatrs correct- The intersection
r4ra s or it i s.
rrould stay where i t
Fred Hoisington: Where it is right here now, shown here, in the yellow.
The north leg option would do that and then run the traffic down TH 5.
Nov, don't get me wrong, Irm not proposj.ng that. Irm just saying that
wetre still continuing to explore that because we havenrt exhausted it butall indicat j.ons are that r,re may not get it.
Erhart: Is today?
Erhart: Excuse me,out intersection on
then you said
Dakota?
you would eliminate the ri.ght-in/xight-
Fred Hoisington: No, that would stay. What werd be eliminating Tim,would be the south leg. rf we could do that, we wourd take the entiresouth leg off. Oh, excuse me, you see the free right turns, those wouldnot be able to stay if we used TH 5 as TH 101.
Erhart: Where you dontt have to stop?
Fred Hoisington: Exactly becase r.re canmaking those free right turns into thatYou'd have to $/eave across that 1ane offree right turns. We just dontt thinkme, thatrs what we were talking about.
not afford to have those folks
huge volume of traffic on TH 5.traffic if they're able to makethatrs possible to do that. Excuse
Resident: Could you sho$, that on the map?
Fred Hoisington: what h,e're talking about are these turns here. Thesefree right turns here and any down here. Especially this one because whatit amounts to is those vehicles would have to weave into that vorume oftraffic, cross through it and then continue and make a left turn furtherto the. west. Agei!, werre continuing to study what we $ri.lr carr the northreg option and if it's approved by lrnoot and it will probibly take a goodtwo months, we probabr,y $ronrt have an answer until Noirember in that r6gardbut if that proves to.be a viable optjon in thj.s ".=a, ,a-""n aL$raysrevert to that r.re believe and therefore do not have to build the southreg. rn the meantime, we feel that we need to continue to the process.we need to continue it as it's currentry proposed or there are someserious possibirities here that r rrave alirii"rty witr,.--ioo *.y not haveso much difficutt with. we understand, we realiie that the possi.biritiestonj.ght are for you to approve, to tabie, to deny, although I wouldsuppose that deniar might be a littre bit. difficuit uot ii it were to betabled, you wouJ,d run the risk, a couple of serious risks. One, as youllgy, tl 5. is being accererated for construction start-rsss, compretion1991 and that would run out to cR 17. rf we were to go-ii-ite north regoption and have to add an entire lane, that segment w6utj nave to Oecompletely redesigned. rt's arready in the cor]rse of being designed andeverything in transition back to the east and the west or lnat would haveto be redesigned as werr to widened that so rve could accomodate thatadditional rane- rf that happens, we 10se two years. we wirr not be onthe accererated schedure for TH 5 and they r^rirr probably break it at aboutthe city,s limits. Maybe l84th. very close to tgetn *6 tni.,X. Thesecond risk I guess that you run is tlat r^re have a aevefoprnent proposedthat you also have on youi agenda tonight, for the rerr pioperty wrrictr, rvronr t say we've been threatened but obvi.ously there's soie -concern wi.ththe deLays that have occurred here. rf that deray i.s furiher wittrout-anyreal foundation, of course you risk a suj.t in that .u"". -i-donrt
mean tomake that sound too strongli but there are some risks that you have to runand would have to run if we-did not get approval from the eianningcommission and councir. r don't wani to mit<e this too eJsy eitrrer. rt isa tough decision to make but hre did erant you to know what iheramifications of that happen to be. It may well warrant delay to allow
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - page 4
Planning Commission MeetingAugust 3, 1988 - page 5
for further studying. we just simply are suggesting that the outcomethat could be pretty negative as far as TH 5 is concerned and as farthe Kraemer properEy is concerned. With that, I. Mr. Chairman wouldsimply turn back to Barbara and then would answer questions later.
of
asjust
Dacy: Based on that, the application that the Commission is consideringis Iooking at a few pages in the Cityrs existing transportation element ofthe Comprehensive Plan. As the plan is written right now, it makes thegeneral reference to the study that r.ra s done in I98t regarding the fivealternatives regarding TH 101. What the proposed amendment to the
Comprehensive Plan wilI entaj.I is merely adding language describing theproposed project. I'm just showing this not necessarily for everybody toread at this time but to show you that erhat staff is proposing to the
Comprehensive Plan is a written description based on the analysis that viasdone in the Year 2Og5 Land Use and Transportation Study. It summarizesthe objectives of the realignment and the results that were identified inthat study. The amendment would also include a general conceptualrealignment of TH 101. Again, the Comprehensive plan is a planning
document showing proposed corridors and general alignments of streets.
The exact design such that you see on the easel over there wiII be refinedduring the construction feasibil- j ty study process. Staff is recommendingthat the Planning Commission recommends approval of the Comprehensive Plan
Amendment as proposed in the staff report subject to holding a public
hearing at the Planning Commission and the City Council level on the
addition analysis regarding the north leg option is completed. In other
words, to restate r,rhat Mr. Hoisington just reviewed for the Commission, webelieve that the process regarding the PIan Amendment and the official map
should continue so tnat $re reserve, so to speak, an alternate option butreserving the opportunity to go back and re-evaluate the north leg \.rhen weget a response from the Minnesota Department of Transportatj.on.
Conrad: For clarification, by proceeding with the mapping and the
Comprehensive Plan, I'm sure the people who are here are real concerned
with, when you do that that's like casting something in concrete. Yourre
saying that the process is to hold another public hearing when all thedata is in-
Dacy: Regarding the north leg option.
Conrad: Right.. And at that time, rdhat commitments have we made? we have
reserved, we have mapped it, we have amended the Comprehensive Plan to
really position it r.rhere the current proposal i.s. Not the north leg,
Ietrs call it the south Ieg or whatever. What comm j.tment do we have at
that time, does the City have to folLow through?
Dacy: We have merely identified in our plan that this proposed corridor
that the City is evaluating and conducting a feasibility study on. The
official map merely identif ies the center line and the extent of theright-of-way limits such that it puts the property o$rners on notice wherethe official map goes through. That the City is looking at constructing a
road through that area.
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - page 6
Conr ad :at that
At thatpoint?
Dacy: That I s correct.
point mapping can be changed if the north leg is decided
conrad: This is a pubric hearing. That's why we have you here tonight.Again, we have petitions in our packet which we have reid. we have ;ostof the notices that people have sent to city Harl that are in our packets.
hre probably have history on the project for the rast 10, not r0 years butsince we've-been playing with TH 191. Werve read through that. Werreinterested in your comments and werd rike to give you tie opportunity tospeak to us at this point in time so with thaa, as r said b6-fore, if youhave a comment that you think is real pertinent to the issue, we'dappreciate your comments. rrm not going to force you to come up to themicrophone but I v,rould like you to stand up, state your name and youraddress and make your comments. Who erants to be fiist.
uLi sacchet: My name is uli sacchet, r live at Hidden circre, 8071. tetme introduce myself a Little further. r moved into the area about a yearago. r buirt a house there in an area that r considered very desireaLle.very idear to have a family home. r have two littre children. one ababy, the other one 2 L/2 yeaxs ol.d. r chose this area because r felt itwas a good place to _raise a family. I was a littLe dampen when I got myfirst tax estimate for the property coming through but i guess that,s afact that we have the highest property taies in Lhis area-here inChanhassen. However, when I was faced with the proposal that you,recurrently considering, r fert rike stabbed in the blck. rt,s a veryspeciar neighborhood.. rt's amazing that within a few months of livingthere, the neighbors have found a iremendous cohesiveness. Not last,because every house has at least one, if not several children. SmaIIchil'dren. some of them, the radies are still pregnant. rrve never seen aprace that had such a big population of rearry smirr chirdren. And assuch, talking to the neighbors, we decided that this is totallyunacceptabre to us. rrm here.as t!r9 spokesperson of f j.ciarly oi lo peoprethat signed the petition and in additi6n to it a sheet that says r canrepresent them as a spokesperson so rrm not just talking for myseJ.f but rdid take the time to introduce me personarry because I fnow th;t justabout everybody of those 70 peopre that signed their name onto that sheetis in the same situation. Chose ttrat place to have a healthy, sereneprace for their famiry and their littre children. Now, obviously as youcan see, there is a reratively row revel concern here to basicaliy .o-ot. ustreet through our backyard that is supposed to be 3 or 4 lanes, iarrying15,ggg to 2g,g0g vehicres per day. Adding a second freeway inbetweenvrhere our development is and wheie we are. Not to mention that there rrasabsolutery no i.ndication at the time that when we cnose ttrii area to livethat there wourd be such a thing in the $rorks and r can guarantee you thata lot of us r^rourd not have built there. we have made a 6onmitment-to thisgity. we trying to make this city our home and for our ctrlioren and we,rebasical-ly stabbed in the back with the project. rtrs, as--i-said, notacceptable to us for rerativery crose concern. ?he threat of saiety thatit poses to our chirdren. Being cut off from the ciat ;ius alr theenvironmentar erements. The polrution. The noise. ir".iu." that,sconsiderable. Right nor^, we're shierded from TH 5 by ;-hiii: That hirl
Planning
August 3
Commission Meeting
1988 - Page 7
would be basically cut down and not only cut down to TH 5 but would be acrossing. And not only a crossing for that $re hear TH 5 but a crossingthat hrould Iet an equal amount of traffic come north/south that iscurrently going east/west on TH 5. This is to me a very heavy concern andlet me add a few further aspects though I don't $rant to take too much ofyour time because Irm sure some other peopLe want to talk too but talkingfox 7O people I believe I can take a little time. It's going to basically
destroy the desireability of our neighborhood. It's going to decrease thevalue of our properties as such. Already one house at least that I kno$,of has gone on the market because of this proposal and undoubtedly therewiII be more. My basic question is, is this the vray the City of
Chanhassen welcomes a $rhole community, a whole segment of their community
after they come believing that itrs the place they chose and all, of a
sudden they realize they're next to a freeway. Irm very glad that Fred
Hoisington is seriously considering using TH 5 as an alternative because Ireally even have questions about the project overalI. The improvements of
through traffic on the intersections is only marginly improved by this
whole proposal. As a matter of fact, the ma in intersection that werre
dealing with, the intersection of TH 5 and TH I01 is o
an E level to a D/E level. Is this not even a whole s
that worth the cost? Millions? It's going to be seve
dolIars. Probably 3-4. If I understood Fred Hoisingt
nry
tepraI
on
improving from
improvement? Ismillions of
correctly, it
cosls roughly a million just to do the building itself. Itrs going to be
at least 2 to 3 million to get the right-of-way and I understand that some
of these peopLe have to be actually placed somewhere else r^rhich will be an
additional cost. one of the things that was also in the proposal is that
intersections are too close together the way it is right now. If you look
at this drawing, Irm not that familiar wj.th Bloomington but I know about
it and I've heard a lot of people, it's like going through Bloomington.
There's one j.ntersection after another. It's not really improving it much
and the main points of foundation for the whole proposal, the three
points, the continuity north,/south, the intersection improvement, I
addressed that, and the downtown traffic situation. Are we really
responsible as a City to ram the north/south najor traffic corridor
through an area where j.t doesn't fit anlrmore? I'm sorry, this doesnrt
really inspire me in confidence in the planning of the City. You dontt go
plan a major freeway after we have put in major developments for famj.Iies.
A freeway type road like this would be a 3 or 4Iane road. It seems to me
someth ing that should be planned a little further ahead. I do believe in
aII fairness that it's too late to route that now through where this is
proposed because itts my understandj.ng that you are represenEing the
residents of the City and certainly the city Council is. I donrt know
r^rhether we have any City Council members here tonight. I sure wish they
hear this. I would be awfully disappoj.nted to find out that through
traffic interests under some extent, maybe business interest, come first
in this city before the j.nterest of the residents and their children. An
interesting aspecE, just to cl,ose my points here, I donrt want to bore you
too Iong but the proposal calls for TH I01 Eo be classified as a major
arEerial. what is TH 101 nolrr? It's an access road for people who live up
norLh and south to come to TH 5 basically to go into town. Itrs a
coll-ector. Itrs not a major arter ial and to make a major arterial out of
it, to encourage this incredible through traffic volume' what benefit does
that reatly bring to the city? I donrt see certainly any that it brings
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - page 8
to me except a lot of dismayget another house as soon asthank you.
and probably a very good motivation to try toI can. I guess thatrs all I have to say,
Don smith: Irm Don Smith, Irve lived here for 15 years. Irm going toprobabJ.y second his motion but r don't understand and r doubt ieri6ustythat yourre ever going to straighten out rH 1or. rt shoutd have beenstraighten. out 4 years ago but one of the questions that r have to ask is,is this being done in conjunction with the overalr prans of the state tochange TH 101 into a north/south highway? To me thEy should change thisto
_ something further east and the main ioute for norlh and south is eithergoing to be Powers, Kerbers, cR 17 or TH 41. Not the present snake bed wecarl TH 101- r donrt care how you cut the mustard, yol're trying to putin intersections where they donrt berong. yourre talring about trafficinto 2005, that's only 15 years from now. you canrt drive through TH r01now unless yourve got skis or a snohrmobire. I'd like to know at the timewho's going to be paying for alJ, of this. The roads and planningcommission certainry didntt figure the width of the road when they did75th street. rtts too narros, now and r think all. of this came together inmy-mind !'rhen you put rH r0l together and cut out where it shourd have beenand put a courthouse that is now and compreteJ-y eriminated rH r0r and thatdoesn't make sense. They calr it the wizard o? oz pLaza now and t.hat'sexactry what it's turning into. r can't see hov, yo-u're going to punch rHr01 through an existing neighborhood with resicrents in ii where you courduse the railroad access, the farm buildings, the cemetary or the buildingsthat are very rimited there now, go furth6r east and punln it south sothat it rines up straight. so eventuarry r0 to 15 yeari from now when itmight go to the racetrack or get past lhe railroai track at rH 212, thenr'/erve got something to tark about. But north and south on TH t0r, wheredo we go? You donit go anywhere. For two brocks yourre oui or chanhassenso stop considering making this an accessh,ay when it shourd be powers,Kerber, CR 17 0r TH 41. Not rH r01. rt never wirr be. rb's not intendedto be that way unless you rip it up now and make a 5 rane highway. That'sall I have to say.
Mike wittrock: My name is Mike wittrock and r live al goz2 Dakota Avenue.I wanted to inform the City that Irve been going around to ourneighborhood asking peopre vrhat their feeliigs ir" to irr"-pioposed rH 101which has that south reg on it and r've onry met one p"r=oi r.rho didnrtsign _my. proposal . Irm sure if I $rent "roo.16 the comm-unity, everybodywould sign this except for probably L or 2 people that I ?ound out wasreal surprising. pretty much f agiee entir6ly- witn yoo, .o.ro"nt=. I alsothink that this traf f ic that wirl generate on this Like Drive, the way itis proposed, that alr the westbound traffic aoing to ucoonaias would haveto go on Lake Drive creating another busy stieet. arr that traffi" g;i;;back and forth, we don't have an adequate crosswar,k there and r think thatwould be a hazard. I just wanted to mention that too.
evenrng council members, my name is Larryrepresent United Mortgage Corporation andm here is bas j.cally to shohr the support of
Homes who basically sold most, if not allpeople here. They support the residents
Larry Guthrie: cood
Irm an attorney and IHomes. The reason IrMortgage and Rot tl undhouses to most of the
Guthrie.
Rottl und
Un i tedof the
LOOZ in
this in their efforts to change the plan. I support the statements that
have been made prior to my speaking here. Specifically what's before the
committee here is the proposal of the amendment to the Comprehensive plan
and Itd like to direct some comments specifically to that. ComprehensivePIan is the plan that's supposed to be guiding the City in it's
development and that was in effect when United Mortgage started this
development and itrs supposed to be a document that can be relied on bypeople, the developers as well as the homeowners. There r,ras nothing aboutthis proposal at that point in time and it's a major change thattsaffecting the lives of many people and that needs to be considered when
changing the guiding plan to guide the city in the future. The change, if
anything is to be made, I guess I would urge the Planning commission to
consider the north leg option thatrs been proposed and eliminate the south
Ieg. The reason is basically because psychologically and IegaIIy, oncethe Comprehensive Plan is changed and includes this south leg, it's going
to be difficult, I feel , for MnDot to agree and approve that yes, werII
take the north leg option if you've already approved the south leg opt j.on.
The Comprehensj.ve Plan is going to be on the books. Itrs a matter that
has metropolitan significance. It has to be approved by the Metropolitan
Council and if you think you can just change the plan then back to
eliminate the south leg, thatrs not necessarily so. I would urge that you
get legal counsel with respect to your ability to freely do that. I don't
think it's quite accurate that you can say let's adoPt a plan as it is
because we can eliminate that south leg anytirne we want. I donrt think
that's true from a legal standpoint and I don't think j.t's true from a
psychological standpoint. I think j.t would be a much better message and
much better support on the citizens of the community j.f you tell MnDot,
look, the north leg option is the only way. If we can't get the north leg
option than werre not going to do anything at all. I think thatrs the
message you should be sending to MnDot. I think for that reason you
should not even consider taking the south leg option. Thank you.
Jeff peters: My name is Jeff Peters. My wife and r live at 8L26 Hidden
Court in the Brookhill development and the reason I came tonight is not
only to support aII the comments that have been made so far but also to
voice some concerns that I had with regards to the proposed realignment of
TH 101. A year and a half ago when my wife and I decided to purchase some
property in this area, we did so because a similiar in a suburb in
Minneapolis, namely Plymouth, decided to Pull a similiar measure on the
residents of Pl).mouth. It was a very unpoPular decision. There $,ere
almost L,AO0 city residents at City Hal,l the night this proposal went up.
we were members of that 6,ggg and the meeting Iasted until 2:00 a.m. at
which time most of the people had left because most people do work in the
morning. Nothing was ever resolved except for the fact that the City
council decided to ram this through the residents' throats and we decided
to move. lie figured the old adage of not being able to f j.ght City Hall is
so true. The unfortunate part is that a few months after we moved, the
City Council was defeated by the Mayor and the proposal was never adopted.
[{e moved to Chanhassen because we felt it was a beautiful suburb to come
to. It vras a good place to raise our children and in general was the sort
of community vre hrere looking for. When we moved here I didn't make the
same mistake I made in Plymouth- I checked the zoning. I checked it very
caref ulJ-y. Irve been through this three times. Irm holding in my hand a
Planning Commission Meeti ng
August 3, 1988 - Page 9
Planning Commission Meet i ngAugust 3, 1988 - page I0
Conrad: Maybe r^re,1I taLk about that Iaterhear the commission r s comments.
document by the state of l*linnesota showi.ng any deveropment on TH 5 whichconcerned me at the time because they w"re pr6posing to, and stirr are,widened TH 5 extensively. This coveis all Lriige r5placements,intersections modifications and major capacity improvern"nl" urong TH 5 inchanhassen and Eden prairie and nowhere in ttr-i s rlport i" it.." .rrymention 9f ?"y improvement to TH r01 nor was there any mention of it whenI checked with the City planning Cornmission, at that iime, anything likethis.- rf there was, iL was eitier welr hidien or was intenli-on.rrf reriout of any comments. r feer like we were seduced into buying the iropeityin this area knowing furr welr, this councir. knowin! rrii'*"rr, that thiswas going to happen- unfortunatery it doesnrt affe6t uny oi you becausenone of you live south of TH 5. vou alr live north ot ti s. what it,sgoing to do is it's going to_ lower my property value. It,s going to makea dangerous road for- any children presint and heaven help yorl if anychirdren ever get kirled on that r;ad. rt,s just in genl.ii a very stupidthing to do. TH lol.can not be straighten out. Hohr are they possiblygoing to straighten it out at cray's 6aye rherer= no ,uy-fr,ey are evergoing to arrow that to come a"rosi Lake- Mi nne t."r" .
---
r
"rigJ"yoo to stopthis proceeding. To stop further procedure on this modification. Adopteither. the noEth Ieg or can the priposal all together. tH igf is nota problem. It's TH 5 that's the probl"m. Thanl you.
El'izabeth Kersch: r.have a question. Does the council feer that theyhave enough jnformaEion to mjke a decision tonight?
on as vre go around and you can
Elizabeth Kersch: WiLI a decision be made tonight?
Conrad: Werre going to make some decision as to what we wanE to do, yesbut.remember my preface to this meeting. The city councir- makes the finaldecision. Wetre looking at certain criteria. They're looking at othercriteria. we're going to pass arong our recommendation tonight. rt wirrI"u:h. the City Council in lwo weeks and then they'Il make ihe tinatdecision.
Brad Johnson: rrm Brad Johnson, r live at 7425 Frontier Trair. Today rthink r represent the northern iegment of the people hrho are concernedabout rH r0r and the traffic and irso the downaown business interest whichwerve been spending quite a bit of time at. r'm very slmpathetic to whatthe people to the south are concerned about as far as their trafficpatterns are concerned. v,Ie also have a major probrem on the north side inthe area of st- Hubertrs, Frontier tiair, 6t".i plains Brvd. and if the TH10r through traffic continues to go thr;ugh that particurar point, we toohave the same problem with our chirdr;;. we have a schoor there. we havea church there and therefore, I think we talk about the no.ih l.g,something has.to happen on the north side because *. u."'-going to continueto have traffic probrems in that area. r don't know Fred if you,ve doneany studies as to what it needs on that corner but one of the problemswe're having right now is we donrt have the ability, witi, ifr" st.t"Iigh"gy going through there, to put any traffic control at the St.Hubertrs corner because the stati is, i berieve has iiia-io-to any stop
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 11
signs or anything li ke
St. Hubert I s and Great
particular corner. Is that true Ered?that at tha t
Plains?
Fred
Br ad
Ered
Hoisington: Are you talking where the stop signs were before?
Johnson: Yes.
Hoisington: That's what I understand.
Brad Johnson: Because I understand the City has requested and they've
been turned down by the State, therefore we just have a problem that lrillgo on for some time in there. Those of us that have to go to work in that
area are getting caught in stacking. If we are in fact going to have 500,
60q, 769 more cars going through there at peak time, traffic will be
backed all the way up to TH 5 right at that corner. I think thatrs just a
problem you folks in the south should be aware of is that the same problem
does exist on the north. Itrs a conununity problem, TH 101. It's not just
your problem. Ideally probably 5 years ago if this had aII taken place it
would have gone over so r think you should be concerned about that and r
guess itrs kind of funny, I think you come to a couple of other meetings
and everybody's complaining on the north side about what's happened
already. In fact, this is probably the only solution thatts available is
to get the traffic over to TH 5. The other problem that we do have is
that in saying that TH I01 is not going to be a through carrier. I do a
lot of work in downtown. Most people take the shortest distance between
two points to get there. I always use TH 101 when I'm going north. I
do not use TH 5. It just short and it's quicker to go that way even
though once TH 5 is improved. I think a lot of people know thaE. Werve
done some studi.es trying to figure out, because our job is to create
retail traffic into the community from what we perceive to be the targeted
market area whj.ch is over to Excelsior, TH 10I and those Particular areas.
The only road thatts practical for north/south traffic is TH I01 because
there is no interchange in Excelsior at CR t7 currently to get into
dor^rntown Chanhassen. It's another 3 miles past TH 101 to even get to that
interchange. Il]e're blessed with two lakes we can't move. Qne is called
Lotus Lake and one is called Christmas Lake. In real life they do divide
and make impossible that north/south traffic movement. As TH 5 the
corridor is improved, hre are going to be blessed I guess with a lot more
people moving out here who anticipate they'lI use TH 5 to work. Traffic
wiII be coming over on TH 41. Traffic will be coming over on TH 5 and
wetre just going to end up with more and more traffic coming from the
north looking for routes to get through and TH 10I would be one of them.
I don't thi.nk we can do much about that. The other thing we have to face
with is that we are in a school district with Chaska. They do a lot of
things in Chanhassen and during the winter, I live here, I probably spend
at least 5 to 10 trips a day on TH 101 to 90 to Shakopee where our hockey
arena is. You've just got a lot of traffic on TH 10I Ehatrs just going to
be there because jt's the only way as I understand. I understand that you
vrere told last time that Delt Road erould not be a through road and cR 17
has terrain problems as I understand it. Again, most of us, even if the
road was there, rdould not go west to come all the way around and go south.
It's just not the vray people do thjngs. You can't control it. I guess
the message I'm saying tonight is that we should probably, hre've got to
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 12
admit we've got a probrem and obviousry this one situation where we justhave the north reg is one sorution. r don't know erhat the rules are. wealso have spent, the City $SO,0gg.Oq. The communities have spent$259,005.00 trying to accelerate TH 5 to geE it done. We're only IO to 15years behind schedule as it is, to get thit done and most of you take thatto work and r think youtd rike to have that completed just li*e myserf. rguess my message is this evening, Irve been sitting through all thesepublic hearings and I can hear you, what you say. I don'i ttrinf yourregoing to change TH rg1. rtrs going to have traific. rt's the on-ry eray toget to town from my anarysis and r spend a lot of time at that. r thi;kthat-yourre going to have to do is encourage the pranning commission andstaff to look hard at the various sorutions. r don't know how you do thatin the mapping process. There are probably a number of differentcorridors you can figure out still on the south side. r think werve al,lmainly addressed the north side historicarry because we didn't have asmany residents over there and so my commenti are today, r think if wedonrt do _anythingf you're going to have the same probiem or greater on thenorth side. r think.you'd have as many people at the next m6eting lr th;yknew somebody was goiog to say you're going- to run L,aoT more cars downFrontier Trail or in that area. you,d have the peopre here from the otherside of the community. rtrs just that people .rin,i as aware of whatexactly is all invorved _in this meeting so r think everbody is going tohave to work on thi.s and somehow within the time that we nive, wtrich is ayear to try and figure out some type of solutions, that we can maximize.Rather than be totalry negative, ererre not going to change TH 101. rtrsthere. rt's something you just can't change. r think we alr have to worktogether on that and r donrt know hor,, to ao trrat exactly techicalJ.y andstill stay within some type of time table. r think yoo'h.rr" to addressthe,planning staff. something wirr have to be done ind this probably, asFred has sai.d, is the l-ast chance we have. Never the last but one of thelast. Thank you.
Jack Atkins: My name is Jack Atkins and r live at 220 west zgth street,also on the north side there and r guess r'd rike to throw my support withhlhat they say that we shour.dn't alr back a plan that nobody believes injust because it's the most expeditious way io do it. r think vre shouldhave a plan we can arr berieve in that wirl rearly sorve the probremsrather than compound them.
Melanie wright: My nane is Meranie wright and r rive at 326 sinnencircre. r think Mr. Hoisington, what you're concerned about is your MnDotmoney that you wourd get from MnDot to deverop these streets. r thinkanother concern would be the money that it,s go,ng to cost to develop thestreet going that way, the way heis got it plinne6. If it goes out toTH 5, you're not going to have to develop tH 5. Itrs going to bedeveroped so if you do route it on TH 5, it.s going to-cosf the city a lotress money. r think that shourd be taken into-contideration too.
uli sacchet: There are three things that r think in alr fairness have tobe pointed out in order to make sound decisions. r vJanted to justunderrine once more what he just said. r think an attitude of fear, theidea that this is the last chance to do this is solely a very, very badfoundation to make a wise decision. r haven't seen m-any wise decisions
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 13
Mike Wittrock: What I forgot to mention too is that, the way it's
designed here, it has like a hairpin turn up on the top where it meets
78th Street and then they do the same type of turn onto TH 5 and it makes
a real awkward type of intersection. I donrt knor", why they r"rould want to
propose that. Then it was also mentioned about the stop light distances.
where that Lake Drive intersects with creat Plains Blvd., in the future if
you ever put a stop tight there, it's probably too short a dj.stance so you
have those two problems too. Another problem that you have, we mentioned
about this sound barrier. If you have a natural incline in the elevation
above TH 5 there, you'd eliminate any possibility of a walkway if you
removed the elevations there. That wasnrt brought up. I guess that just
about covers it.
Larry Guthrie: Ird
about for the plans,
going to be forwarded
Conrad: we've got it
just Iikeare theyto the
here.
to ask if
a part of
Counc i I ?
HeadIa moved,
favor and the
Emmings seconded
motion carried.
to close the public hearing. A11 voted in
The public hearing was closed.
Conrad: Basically what we do now is we go through Planning Commission
corunents. Comments of the advisors of staff and maybe I'1I start it off a
Iittle bit and preface our comments a bit. I think highway and TH 5 just
is the number one problein that Chanhassen residents experience Iiving in
Chanhassen. without a doubt. when you take a look at the surveys,
everything else is fine compared to TH 5. I thjnk that's number one.
Obviously TH I0I, as we're looking at it todayr has an impact. I think
the other concern, the thing that $rer re looking at as a Planni.ng
Commission is the concern of the entire City. Not only the neighborhood
that gets impacted but also the other neighborhoods that wiII be in here
as we take a look at whatever occurs in terms of highways and we find that
you put the highway, as TH 2I2 comes through, thatrs going to have major
impact on some of the things that we're talking about here tonight.
TH 212 is going to be a major corridor that's going to be linked up to
Chanhassen. There are traffic implicat j.ons and Irm not sure if those have
arisen as you've had your community meetings or not but I think those tvro
based on fear. this thing about the risk werre taking in tabJ.ing this, Ithink that it's a much, much bigger risk that we take if we,re going to beIed to made a decision that is not founded on a complete set ofinfornation. If the information is not present and the research has not
been completed sufficiently, you wiII not be able to make a sound decisionand the risk of that is far greater than having to wait maybe tvJo years
for this stretch of road to be out there. The last point, it wasinteresting in the Iast informational meeting we had here, it was
mentioned that the State really doesn't have an interest in TH I01. They
would Iike to turn it over to Carver County. I think that's in direcontradiction with this proposal of making it a major through trafficroad. Thank you.
the petitjon thatrs been talked
the public record here that's
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - page 14
things are of interest there. of interest to the pranning commission andwe pay attention to those things as we make our recommendttion. Justwanted to give you that little brief introduction. Dave, \4rhat questions,comments do you have?
Headla: Let me start out with a couple of comments. r really take issuewith the gentremen and the 70 peopre who say $re stabbed them in the back,we have low level interest. I think the City has acted with highintegrity- we have a very capable staff thaE has prayed open the wholetime- where r live, my neighbors come in quite frEquentry- to tark to thestaff. They donrt rike what the staff terts them ai timel and r hearabout it but the staff has arways been very open vrith them and they saythis is the way it is. This is the ordinance. rrve never kno$rn them tobe a1y_other way and I reall-y find that hard. I think that's justterrible that anybody wourd say something about the st.aff on that or thecity. Another comnentl a pran we alr believe in, r,ve never seen a pranof any kind that everybody believes in. That just doesn,t happen and itvron't happen here. we can go an easier route but r donrt thi;i that's ourjob-to go the easy route. r think r.re've got to make a good decision.Fred, on that north arm that you're tarking about. rs inat similiar towhere Crosstovrn and 35 meets? Is there a iimiliarity there?
Fred Hoisington: The commons? rf there's a simiriarity, one this wouldbe somewhat diminished from that and that brings in...t-nis wourd probabJ.yless the vorume of traffic but nonetheless the similarities are...twonighways of traffic on one roadway...
HeadIa: The gentleman mentioned about many,southeast corner. In the future if we haveup here, how are these young people going toroute? Have we given that a 1ot of thought?
Dacy: what we have told the folks at the informational meetingas part of the feasibility study process, looking at the desigiwhatever option is chosen, is ttral pedestrian u"ie"s wiff fe aof that analysis. we $rill have to lddress the pedestri.n iirrethe noise i ssue .
many young
c ommun i tyget ac ro ss
people on thecenter or whateverthe highway ei ther
is that,of
major part
as weII as
ToHeadla: rs one way better than the other for this pedestrian access?me that.rs, werre going to have young people and they're going to try tocross that road and either way, there's a- high prouiuiri[y tiat one'wiytheyrre going to do it compared to the other one. f thini we've got t6avoid that. Is there a better route than the other?
Dacy: f agree with your statement on the importance.any type of analysis or recommendation on which optionthan the other at this time. That will be incl-udld asfeasibility study.
We can not give you
would be bettera parE of the
Headla: - The noise generation, r think Brad had some good comments on it.The road, peopre are travering up and down arl along iH roi and...r wouldassume you will address that particularly in thar a;ea. nittrer a noisebarrier or whatever. r guess unless there,s reason to believe that north
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 15
arm route is safer, Irve got to go
to me, makes more sense. It isn'tright decision and a lot of people
thatrs a good decision overall.
with the present plan. It just makes,
an easy decision but I think itrs theare going to be hurt by it but r think
wildermuth: Fred, what would be the distance between the intersection
that would cross TH 5, where TH 101, the north side would cross TH 5 andthe current TH LIL/IH 5 intersection in the north leg option?
Fred Hoisington: Just about L,gTg feet.
Wildermuth: Does MnDot consider that enough stacking distance?
Fred Hoisington: That is going to be part of the problem with MnDot.
That distance they consider rather short. What we have to try to
demonstrate to them, if we really want to pursue hard that north leg arm
option, that is no matter if the spacing is lttUo feet, you can still
accomplish that. We think the numbers suggest that but werre not sure
MnDot philosophically, they don't agree with this kind of proposal because
they've had to Iive vrith the commons and some other areas where this
happened so they have some real struggle with, l,gtg feet isn't enough for
that movement.
Wildermuth: I can see
section between fulI of
through.
\^rhere those two lights are close together and the
traffic, emergency vehicles just couldnrt get
Fred Hoisington: Let me just qualify a little bit more,
intersections there, the one that is being proposed plus
exists there today, that L,6OA foot spacing is also not
betvreen those two intersectioos. In any event, we have
that can only be dealt with through good engineering and
making traffic flow. There is no ideal spacing. lietre
find any ideal spacing up and down this road to do that
suggest to you that the L,ggt feeL won't w,ork because of
the north leg but it wil,l- with the other. That spacing
any case.
if there were twothe one thatat aII idea I
spacing problems
geometrics in
never going to
so I don't want tothe spacing of
is too short in
wildermuth: I wish I could see a win-win proposal in this situation.
There doesn't appear that there is one. Based on the different
alternatives that we have seen and tooked at, I think the proPosal thatrs
being put forward now tonight is probably the best one to carry us into
the future.
EIIson: I'm afraid I like the proposal and I'm sorry Eo say that to the
people. I knov, I would be just like you and I t ould be here fighting it
tooth and nail. I think we're not makjng it a major thoroughway. I think
it already is turning into a major thoroughway and itrs already having
problems and I couldn't have a clean conscience and say well, we're just
going to teII people not to use it anl,more. rt's just not going to be
improved. I can't see that thatrs realistic to exPect people to go down
to TH 4I or even CR 17 or somethlng like that. I think a spacing problem
that you're concerned with would also be a safety Problem compounded if we
didn't do anything. I see a bigger safety problem not fixing the way itis right now. r think_ that t.he pranning staff is entertaining your ideas
9f -t!. north leg. If it $rasntt for you people they wouldnrt even belooking at it. r think that they're showing some lort of compromise orattempt to compromise if possibre and r commend them for even trying thatbecause rrm not sure r wourd because that is a hard pirr to serarlow forsomeone like MnDot- r appraud them for giving it a shot and taking whatthey can and r would see approving with the contingent that if the northreg got approvar that it courd go something rike tfiat but r can,t go alongwith north leg or nothing. r think something has to be done. crantedit's a probrem that shourd have been doae 2q-3a years ago. The fact thatit wasnrt doesnrt mean you can ignore it. rt ju;t .eani the further youput it off the more and more peopl-e who are truit uy the consequences orthe correction if necessary so rrm going to be voting accordirig to thePlanning Staff.
Planning Commission Meeti ngAugust 3, 1988 - page 16
Enmings: I haveIeg option tha t
November. If we
werre present i ng
happen then?
Emmings: And if development went forr.rardbe foreclosed from...
Dacy: Thatrs correct.
a question of Barb I guess. If vre would adopt the norththey proposed and MnDot r.ras to disapprove thal inwere to say we want the north leg option. That's allyou and they disapprove that in November, what would
Dacy: It really depends on what happens on the landsouth leg is being proposed. you do have a shoppingcurrently pending on that piece. The City would haveapplication, approve or denial and would have to lookcondennation proceedings on that commercial piece orthat piece would not be developed.
parcel $rhere thecenter appl icationto decide on thatat either ini tiatingtaking a chance that
on that piece of land we might
Emmings: I think ong.9f- the overriding things here is that, and I guessLadd eluded to it initially, is TH 5 i; just a horrible road. It,swidening -is of great importance to the city of chanhass"n u" "n east/westthoroughfare. r think TH rsl arso is a hoirible road and never wirl befixed up at the crayts Bay end and probably witr never be iixeo down atthe.south end as you get closer to TH 2L2 eith"r but neverthel-ess that isam important north/south route. we've got to have a realignment. r thinkthat the way that TH l0I comes down and goes through the city at thepresent time, throuSh llre dor.rntown city of Chanhasien as j.t -is, isabsorutely horrible. ?hat we can't rive with. r thini tnat tne proposedplan- is not a very good one- rt may meet whatever criterii aesi.gners useto plan curves and intersecti.ons and arr that but it rooks a$rkward. rdonrt rike the rooks of ir. I think that the nortn ret-option is a goodone. r think thar it keeps TH 101 in perspective .o."ihui in that itisn.rt a good street/road but r was grai to hear that Benshoof thought thatmaybe it could work. That gave me i lot. of encourag"."nl Uut again,thatrs onty a mediocre soluiion. r thiok we're aeaii;;";";; with ahorrible situation as it's exists, basicarly a bad prai to ii* it and thenkind of a mediocre option in the north reg iption ui,t tn.t,! sort of the
Planning Commission Meet i ng
August 3, 1988 - Page 17
best one. The one that looks the best to me at this point in time becauseit eliminates the problems on the north side that we heard discussed. Iteliminates the objections of all the people that are here and have spoken.It would also eliminate the need to condemn the shopping center land if we
knew that we could do it. Unfortunately, it looks like we'II have to
condemn that property anyi^ray because we're going to have to preserve thatoption. I guess bottom line for me is this. TH 10I has to be changed.Irm for the north leg option but, I'm strongly for the north leg optionbut if rre can't have the north leg option, than I would vote for thisplan. Irm not comfortable with voting for this plan when I think thenorth leg plan is a better one and I donrt know why we don't do it theother way around. If ot.her people agree that the north leg optj.on is abetter one, maybe $re could have that as our first alternative but make
sure we preserve our options to implement this plan if we can't approvalon the north leg option.
Dacy: If I may add, if the Commission wants on the PIan Amendment
application, as proposed now the language and the nap solely indicates
what you see on the board over there. If the Commission decides to go or
to choose the north leg or both or the south 1eg or any one of the
combinations of the three, we can propose to amend the proposal that you
have before you to talk about both options. To talk about the north leg.
Identify it on the plan. This would also address the concern that Mr.
Guthrie had from the Rottlund Companies so two months from now if MnDot
does say the north leg can work, if they do in fact say that, that you
would not have to come back with another plan. Prepare the plan in such a
manner that it gives the City some flexibility to look at either route.
Erhart: Birst I want to clarify that not everybody on the Planning
Comnission lives north of TH 5. I live so far south that I donrt think it
makes a lot of difference in this case. I think number one in my mind
with the situation we currently have with TH 101 running or designated to
go through the downtown is not tolerable. It certainly isn't tolerable
with the redesign of the do$rntown street plan so I think that has to be a
number one priority to change that. By the same token, I donrt think that
vre can easily go down and basically take what Lake Drive East, which has
been on our plan essentiallyT rnor€ or less as a neighborhood street or
frontage or collector and at this point turn it into a minor arterial or
major arterial, whichever, without going through some very heavy thought
processes and unfortunately I think we haven't done that yet. I have to
agree with Steve that the allernatives certainly aren't fun but Irve got
Eo believe there are more alternatives than what werre looking at and if
there isnrt, we certainly ought to somehow create a way that we can look
at those alternatives at the same time keeping on schedule with TH 5.
Itts a littl-e hard to look at the whole plan and to see that we have
somewhere around an estimated l,ggA feet or more between residential
development on the south of TH 5 than that on the north of TH 5 and we
can't figure out some way to get TH l0l through there without going next
to somebody's existing practically new house. On the other hand, Iquestion the emphasis on conti.nuity traffic through chanhassen because Ithink the emphasis ought to be on, at the same time vre remove the Problemwith West 78th, just put the emphasis on creating better intersections for
those people going from TH 5 to TH I01 north and from TH lot north to TH 5
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 18
as well as those people in the south going from TH I0I to TH 5 and backsouth and not put so much emphasis on the continuity. I find it hard toberieve that even in the next 15 years that a majority of the traffic isgoing to come up TH 101 or going down is going through town. A majorityof the traffic has to be going in and out of Lown. Now you've got somefigures there Fred that indicates that currently, they'16 proje6ting thathalf the traffic would go through. How do you determine that?
Fred Hoisington: what theyive done is to rook at the socioeconomiccharacteristics of the city in the yeax 2065 so they know about what thepopulation estimates or what estimates are at that point. They arso knowwhat the percentage of the through traffic is today and know tiat thetotal sheer vorume wirr go from 49? goes througtr oi tne total volume andthat that wilr reduce to 43t in the future. Just simpry by using theinformation that exists today ?im. BRw transportatioi -st,rai"s have beendone . . .
Erhart:
traffic Do they put pneumatic sensors on the roads to determine thecourt?
Fred Hoisington: No, mostYes, some of it has been...
of the traffic counts have been done by MnDot.
Erhart: How do they know a car coming down ?H r0r from the north ends upgoing south, the same car ends up going south on TH rot 5 minutes rater?Through traffic, how do we know a iar is goj.ng through TH 101?
Fred Hoisington: A11 the way through town?
Erhart: Yes.
Fred Hoisington: They know that from the information provided as far asthe base information from MnDot and from BRw. studies that have been donein the past, they know now based on the counting and alr the studies ofwhat people are coing now and they're forecastiig in the future and sayingthat in addition to the gror.rth in the city of chinhassen, there wiLr aiso-be a grovrth in that volume and those people will continue to do that.
Erhart: r guess r question that data because r feel what we rearly needto-d9--hgr9 is to improve the accesses onto TH 5 particurarry with itt ztzand. TH.5 being improved. I think that's where y6u're going to get theemphasis. Again, one of the things I look at, igain t-hav6n't done a
:Iygy^9n this thj.ng or anything but somehow have we evaluated using west98th street option at atl? r won't even ask for a response but soiehow ingoing through that today, walking through that area, s6mehow itrs in thatI,gOg ox l,5OO foot corridor therers got_to be some other options t;;;a-through there is continuity is even required to the extent in"t r trriitwerre tarking about. rn summary, r guess r'd prefer to rook at some otheralternative. r t.hink we have to make a change. r think the north routeon using TH_5 is preferabte to using Lake Drive East because r think if wedo r think it makes you question our whol.e comprehensive plan and theplanning process. r,lstly, r guess if it comes down to that is the ontything we can do, than r think you rearly have to take care to answer and
Planning Commission Meet i ng
August 3, 1988 - Page 19
spend some of the money that these taxpayers are spending on making somemajor changes in Lake Drive East to make it compatible. The mostcompatibre with the probrem they have including taking into considerationthe noise, environmental issues and how do the children now get over thereto the Q store and into the recreation areas and so forth. I just thinkgrerre talking about, if we have to use that road, we're talking about morethan simply putting up a couple of signs saying this is TH 101. I think
we have to do some major, major, major things if werre forced to do that.Itrs coming down to, what do we do here tonight. Fred, could you repeatto me again, I apologize to ask you this, but why, with the situation with
TH 5, why do we have to make a decision tonight on the mapping and compplan alteration?
Fred Hoisington: Tim, there are a multitude of things that have to occuractually betlr,een now and January when the design of this has to be done
and in MnDot's hands. what they intend to do is if we can stay on this
course for the design that has to be done by our consultantrs, the City'sconsultants, and then hand this package to MnDot in January to simplyinclude it, they would have to review the plans but they could approve it
r^rith their package and admit the whole package. The key thing is that if
we miss that time, then we miss being able to have this included.
Erhart: And that time is what, January?
Fred Hoisington: January, right. Now, if sre go to the north 1eg, we
have a completely different problem because the City has no control overthe design of that leg. MnDot is doing itself through it's own
consultants and they are much slower than we are. If they have to make
that adjustment, they will take, $rhere it would take our consultants maybe
3 months to get the whoLe job done, it will take MnDot a year to get the
whole thing done so that alternative should continue to be explored and Ithink we may come back, could come back at a later date and say listen,
we're going to lose 2 years but it's worth doing to get the north leg
option. In the meantime, the process has to go on. we just can't figure
out another way to do that if r.re don't get this completed and approved.
Fred Hoisington: Yes, r think if rre can convince them that that option is
a viable one and if they can buy into that, then they will do that but
they vrill not do that on this schedule. Theyrll do that on a schedule
that wiII go with begin in 1991 and completion in 1993. In order Tim, toIet the project and I think it's June of 19891 they have to have thoseplans completed in January of 1989 and they can not get this stretch doneby January of 1989 if we change it. It's just a fact of Iife lhat they
can not . . .
Erhart: If we go back and say we want
already redesigning TH 5 anyway, donrt
that with the design?
Erhart : But you r re saying ,intersection is going to be
drawings, or when this goes
proposed location.
the north leg option, and they're
you think they would incorporate
if we want to give them our j.dea of where thistoday and theyrre going to start doing theirto Council, they're going to...based on the
Ered Hoisington: The proposal
which includes the south leg.
is the one we're talking about tonight
Erhart: How is it that the nortb option is so significantly di.fferentthan this? we're basically putting the intersection in the same prace.
Fred Hoisington: That stretch between the north leg and Great plainsBrvd., the TH 5 stretch would have to have a center rane added to it inorder to be able to accomodate that traffic flow and vorume to get thesecond left turn rane incorporated. Their consurtants are Barton Ashmanconsurtants and not ours which are BRw. rn order to make that change ittakes them about 3 or 4 times as long as it takes us to do the one werretalking about so Tim, they can not do the north reg option and get it intothis- construction package. what they wilr do is, ltrey'tr fore96 it and itsimply.won't get done if we do it here or they'll cut it off at rg4th andthey wirJ, do everything in Eden prairie in the first construction phaseand shut everythj.ng down for 2 years and go hrest into chanhassen. rt justcan't be done. rf we had conErol over everything to do the whore thin!,than it wourd be possibre but there are so many inings that are associitedwith that, they can not adjust fast enough
Erhart: okay, so then what are we talking about doing with the northoption?
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 2g
Fred Hoisington: They,re already doing drawings as if we were goingone of two things. Either leave the intersection kind of the way itor, if we can move fast enough to get this done and get it into iheirpackage, then they will accomodate this into this proposal...
Erhart: And if our proposal is the north option...
Ellson: Nor will the widening of TH 5?
Fred Hoisington: Thatts what I'm saying.occur until t99t to 1993 in Chanhassen.
The widening of TH 5 will not
Erhart: Okay, those are my comments.
Fred Hoisington: what rre wilr continue to do with the north option isstudy it and see if it's a viabre option if we can get through MnDot.MnDot says yes, werll come back to you and say okay, now you can makechoice. Which of these tvro options are you going lo porsire and if youchoose the north reg, just understand that ii's not going to be builtuntil 19 9I through 1993.
to dois
bid
toIf
your
conrad: r donrt have a whore rot of new comments and r'll make minebrief- r think everyEime a neighborhood has something new in it there'sconcern because it's a surprise. The concern for saf6ty and werl beingand property varues are understood. r think we,re concerned with thatlrrll stop and ask a question. rs there any benefit, other than routingtraffic to chanhassen in having this addi tional road put through? rs -
there any other benefit other than getting traffic thiough chanhassen?
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 21
Fred Hoisington: Oh absolutely. You mean to create
what amounts to through traffic and do!./ntown destj.ne
a separation between
traffic?
Conrad: Yes. Thatts what I said. Is there any other benefit other thanthat one? Other than eliminating some of the traffic aoing to downtown?
Fred Hoisington: I think so Ladd. In any community that plans, it triesto provide some streets with a degree of continuity so that the trafficthat you want to put on those streets doesnit have to use residentialstreets or streets of lesser classification. We're having difficulty
doing that in Chanhassen because the streets are not a great pattern
necessarily and they wind around so it's not real easy to move from let's
say, off from a major street that's over capacity to one that is purely
residential. In order to handle through Eraffic through the community and
to handle the traffic of the people that are sitting in this roorn right
now who arenrt necessarily going aII the $ray through the City, whether
they're going from one sector of the city to another sector of the city,
they have to have a iray to get there so Ehis not only serves people that
are going some distance but people who Iive here and in addition it
separates traffic according to functions so that People can get to the
places where they want to go and are not forced to go places they donrt
have to go and thatts always been one of our major contentions that TH 101
is doing that. Forcing peoPle downtown that don't need or r^rant to be
there and that's putting an overload on downtown and it's causrng a Iot of
people inconvenience who need to get places that can't do so. by going
down...forced to go dorvntown. I think there are a lot of good reasons why
a city does a plan and tries to establish a network that serves all
traffic according to destination and function and this is just one piece
of that puzzle. we don't have any other options. CR 17 kind of does it
but it doesn't do what TH 101 can do.
Conrad: TH IOI is a pretty lousy road and nobody wants it.
Fred Hoisington: Exactly.
Conrad: werre going to put in probably the best stretch of TH 10I in our
community that's on the whole road from up on TH 55 or whatever. I think
if I saw some real benefits to the overall TH l0l strategy but oo
government body vrants it. I real1y have a probl-em with TH I0l. Irm not
concerned about this through traffic as much as I am as to itrs benefit
for Chanhassen. We've dealt l^rith it so many times and we've really never
come up with a very good solution because there aren't many good
solutions. That's the risk we're go:.ng to take tonight that werre going
to look for some solution and it's not there. I've been around it long
enough to know that we havenrt come up with good ways to solve the traffic
probJ,em on TH I01. Yet again, I don't erant to make Chanhassen the stellar
TH I0I owner when it's of very little benefiE to the community and I
really do mean that. I don't know that there's a whole lot of benefit
here. we do have to solve the downtown problem of traffic. We do.
Therers absolutely no doubt about it. when you're not here in this
chamber, werre hearing other residents talk to us about the really bad
Planning Commissj.on t4eeting
August 3, 1988 - page 22
traffic probrerns. Dangerous today. Dangerous today. you canrt get outon west 78th street. you sit and wait. you've got to run. you got toget out. Itrs a real problem. We, as a cornmunity, have to solve thatproblem. It may come back to your neighborhood, ;ith the land in it,sorving that but r think there may be iome other alternatives and r wourdhope rre can explore those. Therers got to be a better alternative.There's just got to be. We have new TH 212 coming in. We're saying TH101 is going to be our access to downtown chanhassen from TH 2r2. BecauseTH 101 now is playing a more major role in downtown Chanhassen andchanhassen access, rtm wondering how this arl comes into pray. How thecurved rH 101, maybe itis not the beautifui, it is really a pretty Eoad.rt srows people do$/n. rtts just gorgeous going througn ine wetlanas. rrmnot sure that r want to change it yet on the other hand, we have rH 212going through our community. rt's going to be there and people are goingto $rant to use it. rt's going to be a better access for mosl of you-thaiT!-5. We're going to have to get there and we're going to have to get youoff and we're going to have to get you to your hom6s. rrd rike to ieesome kind of pran that shows us if Lhere's any possibirity of making TH101 work from TH 212, r'!m arso interested in how cn 17 ties in beciuse itis a north/south. Hor., does that interrelate with maybe that ner{ accessthat we have planned for the western portion of downiown coming off ofTH 5? There's a right-in/right-out access. r don't know. There's someloose ends here and r don't knov, that r know enough information yet tomake some final decisions yet. we've got to move. As r said beiore, thenumber one problem in chanhassen is ?H 5 and I terr you, werve had so manylobbying efforts and so much, we have to move and make sure that we're notholding things up. Now if we do, itrs going to be by our ovrn decisi.on.rf ere do decide that therers a better solution, r wait to make sure it,schanhassen's decision to deray TH 5 access to ttre community, not MnDot. rwant that to be ours and the community can have some kind -oi s.y on that.Basically, I Like the north option bul r do $rant an option. I;iII 9o tothe south option if we canrt make the north option wo;k. i r.nt to makesure what we do tonight is give that north opiion decent chance of havinga good look at- r donrt want to sorve arl oi the county,s and the statersproblems going north and south. r want to sorve chanhassenrs with thatoption on that north and r think r want to send a signar and BarbaraygY'y" got to help us on that, or if the planning Corimission agrees, rthink we've got to send a signal that r^retre "qual.Iy interested in bothoptions at this point in time. I need J-egal Jdvice or f need somebody,sadvice to terr us how we have that opti.on to go either way and if it comesback_and it says the north option is possibrel it," going to detay ttrings-for 2 years, welr r think that's a chanhassen decision tiat we've-got t6make and that wiII be an interesting one. Then we can weigh thj.n96appropriateJ-y. rf r were to draft 6r make a motion tonighi, r guess itwould be something that woul,d approve e/hat r.ve see in froit of ui in teimsof lhe comprehensive pran Eext amendment but r wourd like staff to bedrafting in the interim. r donrt want to word it, we can't word thingsbut r r.rould like to have staff draft some ranguage that by the time iigets to City Council, that that north option is ,o,r", int6 tfratpossibirity and that those are two equar possibirities at this point intime. Those are my comments. with ihat aside, i.s there anytt ing "rs"z
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 23
Headla: Yes, Iet me
of consideration did
Fred Hoisington:
model when it was
Fred when you
TH 2I2?
were involved
The new route
with this, r.rhat typeof lH 2L2.
ask,
you g 1ve
was considered as part of the transportationTH 2I2
done.
HeadIa: Irm saying,still felt that this
Fred Hoisington:alternative.I
you
ha te
Headla: You had a
did look at it.
to even keep saying
best al ternative?
it i.s the only
lra s
this
the
but
good point there and I just r.ranted to make sure they
Wildermuth: Fred, did you look at the option of follor.ring the railroad
tracks? Picking it up on the current proposal instead of making the crossat TH 5 along the tracks dolvn to Great Plains BIvd. and maintaining the TH
I01 and TH 5 intersection where it currently is?
Fred Hoisington:
what?
Are you saying come down in this fashion and then doing
Wildermuth: Tying into Great Plains.
Fred Hoisington: Someerhere in here?
Wildermuth: Yes. Something like that. You'd end up taking the Hanus
building and probably that car wash if you came south of the tracks.
Fred Hoisington: A couple of problems with this. If $re bring this road
down paralle] to the tracks, then we have to take a real goodwick turn in
order to get it across the tracks at least this angle. That is extremely
difficult to do. He's talking about bringing it down in thj.s fashion and
then coming across in some manner or form like this and then tying in
right through here. The geometrics of what you have to do here makes it
almost impossj.ble. You'd end up with maybe a 10 or 15 degree curve for a
speed of very low speed.
wi ldermuth 3 why
there.
a curve? why not just a right angle? A stop light
Fred Hoisington:
this manner?
You mean just come up like this and then come down in
Wildermuth: Tie right into Great Plains.
Erhart: North or south of the railroad tracks.
Fred Hoisington: WeIL, we did not consider that as
Erhart: Hers saying the same thing I did. Look at
extending that and making that TH Ig1 as an option.
an oPtion.
East 79th Street,
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - page 24
Fred Hoisington: In this manner? That can't be done.
Erhart: For what reason?
Ered Hoisington: Again, you have to get across these railroadif you had to get back,...in this fashion, it simply couldn,tI wonrt say you absolutely couldn't put a right turn but thenthen werre bringing back into downtown or $rhat amounts to...
wirdermuth: At the edge of dor.rntown yourve solved ar1 the problems ofgoing through the neighborhoods on the north side and the school.
Fred Hoisington: There are geometric probrems with that. There arequestions of whether we really solve any probrems at all with respect torelieving pressures on downtown. rt's very much a forced situation to dothat. Let's face it, you can do anything. rt's onry a matter of whetheryou do something that produces the desired results.
Wildermuth: Right, for the long term.
Fred Hoisington: And rrd have to say that that probably, for a rot, ofreasons would not achieve the objectives.
Jeff Peters: r just have a comment. r understand consultants. r workwith consurtants everyday in my business and one thing r know aboutconsultants, there are a lot of them and they arr hav6 different opi.nionsbased on their own biases. rs there any reason hre can,t look at anotherconsultant to give us a second opinion on this? r don,t feeL we have anobjective company here?
conrad: r suppose that's possibJ-e. Mr. Hoisington has worked with thecity. r'm rear confident when he terls us someihing, rrm rear confidentin what he says. rt is.an option as you suggest. we could hire someboJyelse but.he's realry not trying to do somet6ing that's anti-city. uu;i-'$rorked with us many times. He's trying to find the best workab-le sorutionand r think there may be another approach. There may be something that hehas overlooked but I guess want to support what...
Jeff Peters: r wholeheartedly agree erith you but there is one thing thatr have found is that there is never onry one solution. There are aiwaysalternatives. r think it's important that we find something here that isa compromi.se bet$reen the neighborhood concern and the cityrl concern bothon the north and the south side of TH 5.
Conrad: I think wetre all looking for thatattention to your comments.
same solution and we,Il pay
tracks and
be done.
of course,
Emmings: Can I ask a question? In your comments you sai.d somet.hing abouty?nti.ng to identify these alternatives as equar alternatives and r guessm thinking more arong the rines of saying here are tr{o arternatives.The city feels that the north reg shour- ue tne primary arternative.
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 25
Identify it as a primary
reason you donrt vJant to
rather than an
do tha t?
equal alternative. Is there some
Wildermuth: I canr t support that.
to Ladd.Emmings: I'm talking
Conrad: I possibly could support that as long as Irve got the flexibilityto solve the problem if the north leg doesn't work. You've got to solvethe problem so as long as Irm not locked out and the City Council's not
Iocked out from solving the problem.
Erhart: What are your plans, if we
for Lake Drive East? Are you going
are? Put up a barrier?
Fred Hoisington: what they do is
crossing TH 5 vrith turn lanes and
intersection in the short term.
do
to
the south leg, what are the
widened it past where these
they come down from about 4 lanes
aII and so forth down to 2lane
plans
home s
Erhart: So yourre just going to leave it the way it is over by...
Ered Hoisington: No, I suspect there would be improvements all the way
over to Great P1ains Blvd. but because that intersection also has to be
part of this study, the feasibility study will tell us that and I donrt
know yet, exactly what that amounts to. But r.re would have 2Ianes
probably as you come to Great Plains BIvd..
Dacy: Lake Drive East, as a collect.or on theyou're avrare we've done a feasibility studies
west side going through the business park and
a two Iane road section.
Conrad: Have we ever looked into moving the TH
west? where the HoJ- j.day station is and moving
another way to go south on TH I0l further r.rest?
transportation p1an, as
for Lake Drive East on the
that has been identified as
L0l
that
intersection fu r ther
in there. Is there
Fred Hoisington: Ladd, ere are considering something of that nature that
would deal with the Market BIvd. intersection. Because we have to deal
with that whole Market Blvd. thing in 1i9ht of some of the things that are
being considered right now, all I wilt say is yes, r t^rill continue to
consider a 1ot of things here. we don't Iook at this process as being
closed at this point. We look at it as a dynamic one that has to go on
and that it is continuing to change. What vre're trying to do is not
foreclose options too soon also so we can deal with this in the shorter
term. If we dido't have to deal with TH 5 at the accelerated schedule
thaE itts on, $re wouldn't even be here at this point in time in doing what
werre trying to do.
Conrad: Is there a motion?
Headla: No one else picked up on the safety aspect. Any particularreason? when r hear about alr these young peopre over there and the wayr.rerve got these roads going, to me that's got to be one of the centralcriteria we should be looking at.
Emmings: Isnrt the traffic though Dave going to be there. Itrs eithergoing to be TH lgr up here or itrs going to be on TH 101 0ver here. rt isa probrem and r think what rim said did address that. He said if we'regoing to run this road down, werve got arr these neighbors that have justmoved in do$rn there and now theyrve got to cross a busier TH 5 becauseit's bigger and a busier TH l0I because it's bigger. We can't besatisfied with purting up signs like he said. i-ttinr he hit it right onthe head. we're going to have to rook at that as part of the feasiiilitystudy and if we need pedestrian bridges or whatevei to get people saferyacross, we're going to have to put the money into it but t don,t thinkthat rdhat werre doing here is going to affect that that much.
Headla: r think it can in the recommendation that we put forward.
conrad: r think we can do that when we have a route. A specific plan. rthink if we ran it. soutn, we can recommend buffering. we lan recommendsound barriers. we can buird stuff there but r perionarry havenrt gotteninto that detair yet because r don't know where it's goini but r thinkunderpasses, warkways underneath the new TH l0r. rr it nippened to gosouth, r think we courd consider that but we still have the TH 5 probtem.we stilr have that gorilta sitting there and r donrt know how to soLvethat. rt woul-d be nice if we courd get peopre under and over or whatever,TH 5. Itrd be nice but...
Brhart: The count, the through traffic count
Headla: I donrt want to tet this thing 9o by. If one isother, I think we should be looking, I Ehink there shouldfor a decisioo. That traveling criteria should be anotherknow if you people take 52 to get to 35. ThaErs deadly.through here. In 2gg5 I'm going to be 75 and Irm going tothrough here with atl this iratiic mergi.ng?
on
the
was 8gO cars a
both approachesintersection,
better than the
be a criteriaone. I donrt
2005 and we go
go whi zzing
da y?
to thein other
Fred Hoisington: The traffic approachingintersection where it rdanEs to go ttrrougtrwords, straight through going south.
Erhar t : 'las r.rhat? goq?
Fred Hoisington: No, excuse me Tim. That,s the peak hour number.
Erhart: Oh, gqg per hour.
Emmings: At the peak hour.
Dacy: Between 4:30 and 5:30.
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - page 26
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 21
Erhart: There are going to be how many car?
8Ag.Fred Hoisington:
ENnings: Irm going to move that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of the Comprehensive Plan Text Amendment *88-5 as presented in
Attachment #1 with a change that woul-d identify the north leg option asthe primary preferred route for TH I01 and identifying the proposed plan
as a secondary option in the event that the north leg option is not
approved by MnDot.
Erhart: I ' 1l second that.
Conrad: Fred, in tha t
of your being able to.
Ianguage, does that hurt us in any way? In terms
Fred Hoisington: That's a good approach. As l look at it, both of these
have a possibility of being viable options. Excuse me if I said there isonly one option. There isn't but I think thatrs a good approach to
dealing with this whole question. As Iong as we can designate, get on the
comprehensive PIan and do the official mapping and so forth, then werresatisfied.
EIlson: I
would then
decide if
seeing it?
just had
again go
we want to
a question, if that north option were granted, we
to the public and let the rest of Chanhassen helpput off TH 5 for 2 more years? Is that the vray
us
werre
Fred Hoisington: No. If you decide on the north option,
the option but project, TH 5 in Chanhassen is put off for
wiII be no choice there. As long as the City understands
it's decision to make.
that would cause
2 years. Therethat, that t s
Headla: Say that again.
Fred Hoisington: If it becomes the north leg option is the
approves and that's the one that then becomes j.mPlemented.
delay the Chanhassen stretch of TH 5 for 2 years.
one tha t
Then you
MnDot
wiII
Emmings: But TH 5 wil.L be widened up to the chanhassen border?
Fred Hoisington: Probably up
18 4th.
to 184th. Somewhere in the neighborhood of
Conrad: Versus where?
Fred Hoisington:I7 I think.
Larry cuthrie: If
consuLtant's pl an
consu l- ta n t I s plan
Versus all the $ray through to CR
the peopLe who are planning TH
for the cross intersection, why
for the north leg option?
5 vri Il accept our
won I t they accept our
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 28
Headla: I think the north route is veryterm. ...come 2gq5 we,Il have the south
Larry cuthrie: I'm saying, back to something he said, the reasondelay for 2 years was that the consultantrs who planned the TH 5intersection would take probably a year to incorporate this extraWhy couldnrt our consultants do that plan and turn it over to thembeing accepted? The same as they do for across the intersection.
Conrad: The reason for opposition Jim?
Conrad: They just might. They just might. It'swonrt. What is precluded is that if they acceptdon't have TH 5 coming to Chanhassen for 2 years.
Wildermuth: I dontt think the north legbe other solutions other than the southdonrt think it makes any sense, I thinkrouting minor arterial traffic for t,AAOhighway.
Fred Hoisington: rt's a different situation for this reason. when werredealing with TH 101 $re're dealing with different alignments. It is astate trunk highway arignment but at reast itrs not part of onry MnDotdesign at that point in time. They will not relinquish that to ourconsultants. Their consultants wil.l do that on their... al1 theadditional right-of-way as a part of that. Barton Ashman wiLl need 2years to. . .
&nmings moved, Erhart seconded that the planning commission recommendapproval of the Comprehensive plan Text Amendment #gg-5 as presented inAttachment #1 with a change that wourd identify the north reg option asthe primary preferred route for TH lgl and identifying the pioposed pranas a secondary option in the event that the north 1e9 option il not -
approved by MnDot. Alr voted in favor except wirdermuth and Headra whoopposed and the motion carried rrri th a vote of 4 to 2.
not precluded that theythe north opt j.on, you
for
Iane
uPon
the
in.
is viable. I think there have toleg or the current proposal. Iit's poor planning to look atfeet of a very busy state
Conrad :aII for
poor planning in a long rangeroute and. . .decision -
to City Council, on August 22nd. I thank youOkay, this item goes
shot4li ng up tonight.
Public Present:
Name
Senn
Roo s
Address
7866 Park
1450 Park
Mar k
Rome
Drive
Court
PUBLIC HEARING:
CONSIDER ADOPTION OF OFFICIAL MAP FOR THE REALIGNMENT OF TH }01 ACROSS TH5, CITY OF CHANHASSEN.
Planning Commission Meet j. ng
August 3, 1988 - Page 29
Don T. Smi th
Mike wittrock
Drew & Melanie Wr ig ht
Gene Heikkinen
creg cmi terko
Grace Johnson
Jack Atkins
cary DischBiIl Streepy
Elizabeth KerschJeff & Holly Peters
Bruce & Cindy Marengo
Sharon Loeckler
Tom LehmannLarry Guthr ie
J irn Lewi s
Jan Coey
Janine Ringdahl
Bi 11 Davis
Ivan C. JohnsonJeffery Cook
Gene Borg
UIrico Sacchet
Brad Johnson
8 012 Erie
8022 Dakota Avenue
320 Sinnen Ci rcle
301 Sinnen Ci rcl e
812l Hidden Court
314 3 Marsh Drive
220 West 78th Street
817 0 Marsh Drive
321 Sinnen Ci rcle
271 Hidden Lane
8129 Hidden Court
815 0 Marsh Drive
8028 Erie Avenue
330 Sinnen Circle
529 35Og west 80th, Bloomington
813 3 Dakota Lane
Taco Shop
8032 Erie Avenue
I'1i nnetonka
7 910 Dakota Drive
1800 ueritor Tower
90 Lake Drive East
8 071 Hidden Ci rcle
7425 Frontier TraiL
Conrad: Barbara, we don't need any staff report on that.
Dacy: Based
the official
reg .
on your prev ious
map, you should
you make the motion to adoPt
the north leg and the south
moti on,
identi fy
when
bo th
conrad: Technically, should I open thi.s up for Public comment?
We will open it up for public comments. Relatively itrs the same
just talked about. we just have a different step that we have to
through. Is there any comments relative to the mappj.ng process?
Okay.
item we
9o
Larry Guthrie: I have a question, the comments that were
crosstown comments. Is Ehe north leg option suPposed to
would there not be a signal at the north leg?
EIIson: Yes.
made...in the
be utilized,
from TH 101 would not have to merge. They
the stop J-ight and then they could immediate
Larry cuthr ie:
would j ust haveget over to the
So traf f ic
to wait atleft lane.
Conrad: It can be solved that way.
Uli sacchet: I certainly want to take the oPportunity to express that I
believe it is absolutely mandatory from the viewpoint of the people that
live down there Ehat tr.ro options are both fairly accurate- Certainly the
north leg option has an equal value alternative to trhat's currently
Planning Commission Meet i ng
August 3, 1988 - Page 30
proposed. AIso, I'd like to ask a question. It has towould happen at the intersection of Great plains BIvd.comes into it if the current proposal would go through.
Uli Sacchet: Correct. Itrs basically a rT,, intersectionwhich to me seems a very undesirable situation which wouldadditional point for the north leg option the way I feel .
be con s i dered
vrhere the east
wha t
1eg
Fred Hoisington: yourre talking about Lake Drive East west of TH
at this
be an
LSL?
po int
Fred Hoisington: As Irve indicated in the past, I hate to keepthings off on the feasibility study but thaa's what it,s for iswith design problems such as that and to try to determine r.rhatare and so forth so that will be answered. IrlI say again, ifnot...but it is viable solution that can be engineeied.
puttingto dealthe costsit is
conrad: The north route, and r've always been concerned about rearignmentof TH r01 because r want to make it easy access to downtown. rrve aiwaysbeen, r think those of you have been here, rtve always been concerned thatsome of our routing is taking the highvray too far away from downtohrn. rI^,ant to make sure that people who are crose have an option to use ourdowntown services. There is that rittte added benefil in trre north routewhere we haven't routed peopre alr the far. we haven't routed themadditionar distances away from making that alternative choise of going todowntown and visiting some of our businesses which r think is imp6rtait.Just as a footnote, r think that the north route does do that a rittle bitbetter. Any other comments ?
Mark Ei.dem: From what I'm hearing is, what wetre coming up with here is ashort term sorution to a long term problem. The big isiue- here is whetheror not it's goi.ng to cost 3 years of construction time and whether or notTH 5 is done. I guess what I'd like to say is, why not wait to make theright decision and do it right in 2 years. rt's not that much of a waitto do it right and do a long term decision.
Conrad: Yes, and thatts what we like to do on planning Commission. weJ.ike to plan. We like information. If we do our job ;ight, that's whatwerre doing. There are some other issues that are out there that wehavenrt tarked about but there are other issues. This may be our onryopportunity to do something that's kind of good pranning. obviously, fromyour standpoint it's not but from the residentiar neighborhoods inchanhassen, this may be the opportunity to do the 9oo6 planning. r thinkthe forks over here who voted against lhe motion, frrey'ie prouiuly right.Probably the bett.er pran is the south route but in my-mine-, r don,t knowthat we gain a vrhol-e Lot from it. r don,t know that we gain much and rrearly want to pursue some other neutrar solution to the problem at thispoint. r just don't see a rear long term benefit ..,y pu.iicorar directionon this one. TH lgr is just a real probrem. rt may never be sor-ved anditrs one of those things_ you can study it to death and never come up vritha perfect solution and that's what Irm afriad of. as we study it t6death, we may lose the abitity to solve the biggest problem chanhassen hasbased on what everybody terrs us every other week hrhen werre here at the
Planning Commissioo Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 3I
PIann i ng
ignoring
comments ?
Commiss j.on . So anyvray, I
that. Conceptually we've
hear your point and itrs not that we,regot to agree with you. Any other
Resident: Ird just Iike to point out if I could make this document a partof the public record.
Conrad: Sure. Just del iver
Mark Eidem: Is this normalthis with so many. . .
conrad: l.laybe not.
Mark Eidem: With something
Erhart moved , EI L son
favor and the mot ion
then to Barb Dacy here and
procedure where you approve
she can do that.
something Iike
of this importance, how can you approve?
conrad: we're approving some concepts. Actually I'11 take it back. we
do that and when we see new developments coming into Chanhassen, we ask
for sketch plans. We like to see concepts before r,re get into some
details. In this particular case, I think itts prudent to approve some of
these things right now so we have the alternatives because if we dontt
approve them right now, these alternatives may vanish. From a planning
standpoint, yes, maybe we should have more data but from being real wise
about it, r4re are protecting more of our options right now and thatrs
what's important. At least that's what's important to me and maybe some
of tshe members on the Planning Commission tonight. werre asking staff and
consultants to find more information. werre also being forced into this a
little bit prior to when we would prefer to be Iooking at the issue but r,re
see the benefits are there. From a city standpoint, we've got to take a
Iook and wetve got to make sure we're not going to be forced out of having
some of these highvray access problems solved for the entire city of
Chanhassen. we have to make sure that the res! of the community is aware
that if we change this to a north route, the rest of the City is going to
be missing a section of TH 5 for a couple years. They may not be pleased
to hear that but anyway, tonight we're reserving some options. we dontt
have all the data in. We're asking our consultants to get us more data
and we haventt precluded some things also. Is there a motion to close the
public hear i ng ?
seconded to close the public hearing. AII voted in
carried. The public hearing was closed.
to
t r^ro
Erhart moved, Headla seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approve the adopEion of the official Map for the realignment of the
routes as proposed in the Comprehensive Plan Amendment to amend the
Transportation chapter of the Comprehensive PIan of TH 101 across TH
The official map shall be prepared by BRW in time for City Council
consideration on AugusL 22, L988. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
5
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 32
SITE PLAN APPROVAL EOR A 4g,gOO SQUARE EOOT
OF PROPERTY ZONED BN, NEIGHBORHOOD BUSINESS
NORTH SIDE OF LAKE DRIVE EAST, JUST EAST OF
CENT E R.
SHOPPING CENTER ON 4.86 ACRES
DISTRICT AND LOCATED ON THE
Q-SUPERETTE, HIDDEN VALLEY
Dacy: Given the commission's previous action on the first two items, thecity Attorney has made a recommendation as to a motion that the commissionshould adopt. The motion wourd be to recommend deniar to the city councirbecause the location of the shopping center wourd be within the proposedofficial map.
Headla: Since there are al-ternatives, are rre better off tabling it?
Dacy: A motion to table is an option but the Chairman maythat question to the applicant. I really think it,s goingapplicant as to, well, maybe I should pol it this wayl tfreaware of aII the options. He has seen the language in theto pursue the north leg option. He may still want to rtake
and pursue his application...
vrant to pose
to be up to theapplicant is
recommendat ionhis chances"
conrad: r think tabring keeps it away from the city council and r don'tknow that that's the right thing to do either. yet on the other hand rthink staff has made some comments on the plan and the applicant has notincorporate those comments into the plan so r would feer well justified intabling the site plan until r saw the pran. Things rike the two accesseson the site pran. r don'!t feer the appricant has considered what wetalked about the last time when we were here. There were somerecommendations that we made during the sketch plan or whatever we had andr stirr donrt see that incorporated into the prin. r typically rike apran going to city counciL. The one that we iee is the- one r want them toget and r don't see any prans. r don't see any of those modificationsmade on the pran that we got tonight. There's another option. we cantable it until we get those changes. we courd turn it down. we courdapprove it. we courd do anytning the planning commission so desires but rthink there's some rationale for tabring it for reasons other than theIocation and the previous two items. Tim, erhat,s...
Erhart: I'm for denying it. I think it's more consistent with ourprevious action here tonight and basically make a decision to remap itwhich does not arlow this proposar to wori. r guess r wouldntt mindasking the applicaot what he wants to do but...
Conrad: Irm sure they r^rant to proceed. Therersdonrt you take the floor, being that you broughttalk to us.
noit doubt about it but whyup Tim, I'11 Iet him
John cairns: r'm John cairns, 4r5q Multifoods Tower, counsel to thedeveloper- we prefer to see the matter go to the councir. we donrttherers a technical grounds for deniar but yourre the commission andnot and r donrt mean to stand up there and argue with you about thetechnicar grounds. you see the staff report. For your information,
think
werre
we
Planning Commission Meet i ng
August 3, 1988 - Page 33
would consider denial in effect a condemnation of the property. Becauseof the potentially your raising of the second alternat j.ve, the north legis, of course, fine vrith us because a lot of it has to do with what theproperty here can do so I think that is helpful and I think the Council
ought to be the place where ere decide r.rhether or not they $rant to ineffect condemn the property by not doing what we thing the ordinancerequires them to do so we prefer to see you send it ahead and if it's on adenial basis, thatrs the way we will see it go to Council.
Erhart: Yes, except the northern route still has the east Lake Drive
alteration. Could have even if we did do the northern route $rouldnrt it?
Dacy: Irm not sure I know what yourre referring to.
Erhart: If we had the north leg option, you still have to put
intersection where hretre proposing and yourd still be putting,
making a change to Lake Drive East which would cut across this
Either way it significantly affects your property.
rn an
still be
pr oper ty .
John Cairns: No, I don't think that's right.
Dacy: The north
prope r ty .
Ieg option would not have Lake Drive East crossing this
John Cairns: As I understand the north leg option, the south side of the
highhray stays as it is and the north side has a new intersection. Our
property stays intact there thatrs vJhy I'm saying, we think the ordinance
compels the issue for approval of the site plan because werre technically
complying and the effect of saying that therets a secondary option that
may prevent that is in effect saying we can't use our property and we view
it as condemnation of the property. That's really the City Council's
deci.sion, not the Planning Commission decision that's why we urge you to
send it forward and we'lI argue it out there.
Dacy: Dakota Avenue wiII still be closed off
to Lake Drive East in the area the applicant
. There would be no
is proposing.
change
Erhart: Okay, I didn't understand that.
Emnings: I agree with Tim. I just think we should do something thatrs
clear cut and be consistent with what we've already done.
EIIson: If vre deny this, can they come back if the
approved? I guess that confuses me. tf it all goes
Ieq option is the way to go and we've already said,
shopping center there, then they canrt? And it goes
and they also do the same thing, does that nean they
come back?
north leg option is
through and the northno, you canrt have a
to the City Counc i Icanrt or can they
Dacy:
EIIson:
They do
Okay,
have the option
then I would go
to reapply.
along with You.
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 34
wildermuth: I
HeadIa: DeniaI
Conrad: I don't
agree with r.rhat I s been said.
is consistent.
have anything new to add.
Elrson moved, Enmings seconded that the planning commission reconnenddeniar of the Hidden varley center site pran because it confricts with theproposed officiar Map for the relaignment of TH 10r. A1l voted in favorand the motion carried.
PUBLIC HEARING:
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT REOUEST
NEIGHBORHOOD BUSINESS DI STRICT7 AND HWY 4I, SUPERAMERICA.
Public Present:
Betty LangAIlen Putnam
Bob Wagner
Gene Conner
Roman Muel Ier
Bud
Randy Peterson
Roger Zahn
Sandy
Jo Ann Olsen and Larrythe Site Plan Review.
TO PERMIT GAS PUMPS ON PROPERTY ZONED BN,
AND LOCATED AT THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF HWY
Address
253I Forest
6285 Chaska
2 511 Orchard
25 21 Orchard
SuperAmer ica
SuperAmerica
Real Estate
HSZ
Aven ue
Road
Lane
Lane
Agent for AppI icant
Brohrn presented the staff report on this item and
Chairman Conrad called the public hearing to order.
AlLen putnam: r rive at 6295 chaska Road which is just to the east of theproposed site- That just off of the street r live 6n, rH 4r where thetraffic has been getting $rorse there more and more. i beli"*re that gaspumps located on this site, and this site has been b.;";ha before thisbody. in the.past. Traffic was a major concern for this particurar siteand- by putti.ng a 12 outtet gas staElon there, ";"; ;;y gis-station therewourd significant increase the traffic turning orr iH'z-onto TH 4r to comeinto that area- rt would increase the traffii on TH 4r.. There are sixgas stations within a mile of that l-ocation "r.r"niry i, tt," Excersiorarea. Three of them rocated right on TH 7. Because of that, r wourd askthat this body deny the motion to put gas pumps at this Iocation.
cut andthat was
Betty Lang: r rive 2631 Forest Avenue and r thought this was alrdry before when you talked about this cute little shopping center
Name
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 35
going in and nothing to us about a SuperAmerica. For one thing, they haddiscussed before the run-off in which they were going to have a holdingpond. What kind of run-off are you going to have around Lake Minnewashta?
Another thing, ...gas stations have been brought up many times and I donttthink - - .
Brown: Through the HSZ site, because it's fairly cornmon that the parking
Iot is going to pick up from the exhause fumes, etc., part of thestructures that have been proposed here in the storm se$rer system by the
watershed District in trying to maintain the water quality, is a devicethat would skim off the oils that could possibly enter into the ponding
system and the storm sewer system. So that device wiII prevent the oils,the gasolines heading straight through to the lake. AII the water quality
issues have to be addressed through the Watershed District as well.
Conrad: Does thj.s put any new perspective, having a gas station on this
corner versus a restaurant or whatever some of us might have imagined
before, your comfortabl-e that the runoff from the gas station is not goj.ng
to pose any additional problems to water quality because of the skimming
devices that we're talking about?
Brovrn: The natural run-off that we have through any parking lot, whether
it's going to be a gas station or a restaurant is going to be the same.
Itm not going to speak in regard to if there's a major gasoline spill
there. My previous comment regarding the gasoline station may be
corrected that we do have gasoline once in a while that maybe a couple
drops here or there or $rhatever that may come out of the spouts as the
customers fill his car, in that aspect the concent.ration of oils that come
off the parking 1ot could be increased. Thankfully HSz, through their
planning of their parking lot, was concerned about that as the Watershed
District was and they did install, or have proposed to install a skimming
device. That device would in fact take care of not only the HSz proposed
strip center but the run-off incurred by the proposed SA station as well.
Again, this wouLd not Eake care of any unforeseeable event. I canrt
imagine what e,rould happen then but any expected use in this area would be
accomodated for with that skimming device.
AIIen Putnam: Did Chanhassen run the number of cars that would be
expected typical at a SuperAmerica?
Randy Peterson: I rePresenE the real estate investmenE
Randy Peterson. I have here of f ic j.als from suPerAmerica
any of these questions and the design of the buiJ-ding to
model. Would you like that done at this point?
firm.that
sho w
r\4y
can
you
name ls
answer
the
Conrad: co ahead. why not?
Randy Peterson: Also, one other thing that I did in talking to staff was,
we do have a hard time if TH 7 access is cut off. We have a very
difficult time. It may or may not work, Iike I said but vre need TH 7
Conrad: Jo Ann, in terms of run-off?
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - eage 36
Conrad: TelI us a little bit about aa pump, a spill. A major spill. Notidylling and oil and a little bit of
Hor^r erould that affect the particularlooked at?
access if at all possible. That isnrt an issue here really and it,s beingworked on as r understand right now but that,s not on orrr.-.. He asked aquestion on the cars right? This is what itrs going to look like. Romando you want to come up because yourre a rittre bettir advised on this.This is a whore new design thatis coming into the cities. yourre one ofthe first to be seeing this design and i,lr ret him take it from here.
Roman Mueller: Werve aIl met before. Irm Roman MueIIer $rithSuperAmerica. This is our Iatest prototype design that werre proposingfor this area. changes to a more iesiaenii.ar stire than our order fratroof buildings- coing to a righter style brick, sorarium on it. The samebasic entranceway. you see a skyrit area over the entrance. Differentslgnage appearance on the outside of the building with righting up to thise9ge- Putting a stripe trim on it. rrying to .ik. it br6nd better withthe residential locations where we're buirding more often than not thesedays. one thing r'd like to crear up what rdas stated in the report, thereare 6 pumps capabl-e of serving 12 cars. Those are not 12 pumps. ?hereare more than 12 hoses. Each dispenser has 4 hoses on eu"ir side but onryone can be operated at a time giving a maximum of 12 cars to be serviced:r just want to make that very irearl This is tt" iiyre aisfenser we'rediscussing. on the question of traffic that was brotght up', we've donenumerous traffic studies at a number of different rocition-s and each andevery one of these around the country has shown that over goE of thetraffic that draws into our site com-es from existing trarric in the areaso the impact of increasing the traffic flow in the area is not that much.Thatrs the simplest it can be put on the traffic issue. yes, we doincrease the number of turning motions in the area but $rer re notincreasing the traffic. There is some concern about theft in an existingconvenience store and r'd rike to point out one of the differences that wehave between ours and a majority oi other convenience store operations.Thatrs the number of people we have on duty in our shifts. Theyrrerunning 2 to 3 people on duty. using the 6uddy system more often than notversus many of our competitors using a single emptoyee at any particulartime. making them more susceptibre t; theft-bec.ole ih"rers no one there towatch but one person on duty. r think the issue of contamination wai veiywerr handred. rf people reirry rook into the issue or cais driving ;na;-'the area, you'11 find out that actuarry the asphalt is going to be puttingout more contaminates than the cars driving on iE for tie m6st part- in th6initial stage of the project.
d j.saster though. A disaster meanj_ngjust minor stuff. A car sitting .nigas, Irm talking about a major spill.drainage that our engineers have
Roman Muerler: one of the things that is required of us and we do on alrour sites these days is there is a spirt con€ainrnent program establishedfor the store in which the grade in Lh. ur"a, arl aquifiis, arr watersystems are rooked at. The drainage to them. the feopre ihat need to becontacted. to stop any type of a spilr to contain it as it travers.Notification of Fire Marshalls. nverybody we can think of is listed in
Planning Commission Meetj ng
August 3, 1988 - page 37
each store and it goes down starting at the first person to be called on
down so we can control it if it does happen. The potentj.al is al$raysthere. Anytime you have a human working with something that can bespilled, it can happen. We've got an extremel,y good record at our storesto this point in time. Irm not aware of any major spills that we've had.
Werve had some minor ones where a truck driver is not following the rulesand is not watching when hers filling and it will overflow. The
underground tank, we're taking preventative measures now with a systemthat will shut it off in the tank before he can overfill it. That'sagain, a part of the new system $ret re putting in as well as the inabilityfor the gasoline to travel up through the vent pipes and be spiJ,Ied outthrough that area. we are addressing those issues because they are veryimportant to us as they are to everybody else.
Emmings: WiII this store have access to that system?
Roman Mueller: This store will have that system. We are starting as ofthis summer putting that system in every store. What it is, it,s a
containment system at the tank that as you fill it, it begins to slow thefilling from the truck which immediately the tank driver is going tonotice. It begins to slow as it gets tor.rards the top. If it gets to thetop, there's a ball valve in there that shuts it off and then there's a 2Agallon container above the tank that will hold all of the gases in theIine. So if he's standing there, he shuts it off, he hasn't got anything
to do with that 20 gallons in the line, he pulls the hose off. It will
dump into this secondary containment and as the tank is lowered by people
punping gas, fuel will drain back into the tank. So the possibility or
the probability of an overfill is almost non-existeot. At the dispensers
where the gasoline actually comes out of the ground, itrs been required
for years for a valve to be put in there. If somebody drives across andhits the dispenser, knocks it completely off the island, the valve
automatically trips and shuts. It's just a very, very simple trip valvethatrs in there so the gas can't come out of the dispenser then either.
Conrad: Talk to us a little bit about traffic. SuperAmerica is a real
fine operation and Irm pleased to see, it's just a good operation. Itrs
so good that I perceive, I get a problem v'rith what Irm seeing on the
board. Access. I still have the problem now, I have an additional
problem that if we don't have TH 7 access, what that does to traffic
coming in. Itrs like we're begging for another problem here. we not only
have the other HSZ traffic thatrs going to come into the site, we now have
a whole Iot more coming in from possibly one site and location and thatrs
a real concern to me.
Roman Mueller: I think in just a very brief moment I had to read through
the staff r ecommendat i ons , I thought that was pretty well handled in thatif the access from TH 7 isn't allowed, vre don't get building permits.
Also, that issue is primarily something that's been dealt with the Hsz
development. Access, understandably this is operating, we are developing
only the lot area that you see in front of us. The accesses to the area
are whatever HSZ lives with. I didnrt understand that access wouLd be an
issue involved with our conditjonal use permit.
Conrad: WelI, did he reflect accurately the staff's report? My opinionof how I read the staff's report is, we would not deny their ap-priiationgiven TH 7 access. That's the way I reviewed it. you,re asXini for, theappricant shalr not receive a permit until MnDot approves access from TH 7but you havenrt conditioned it on access to TH Z.
orsen: rf itrs found through that access permit to use that site canfunction just off of that one access on TH 4r, that's through r,lnDot, thesite could function separatery. r think everybody is thinking that theTH 7 access vrirr still. be permitted. rf it doesn't r think c[anges willbe made.
conrad: Hor., does this superAmerica affect al1 of the concerns, alr theaccess concerns because it is a high traffic aenerater. rtrs not rike arestaurant where you have turnover every harf hour. rt is a high trafficgenerater every hour. How does that impact what we.ve previously seen
r.ri th this whole site? rn terms of trafiic studies, shoild we refer toLarry?
Brown: Two things, r'd rike to carr your attention to condition 9 ofsite plan. rt states that the appriclnt sharr not receive a buirdingpermit until MnDot has approved access pernits for TH 7 and TH 4I.
Conrad: So if they don't approve TH 7, then what happens?
the
Brovrn:
address
it would have to come back to the planning Commission.second concern, if you're satisfied with t.he first.
Then
your
Conrad: Well, that clarifies that condition.
To
to come back in
though?
Randy Peterson: Say Jo Ann,because just elininating TH
According to thi s
The whole HSz si te
$rould that really take place,doesnrt change our site plan
wil1.
will have to come back.
7
irEl1 son :
OI sen :
Brown! The HSZ site was, correct me if I,m wrong Barb, was approved withthose accesses. unfortunatley your site is u puit of ihat ptat. rf thatplat does not receive approvalr then there is iearry no ie.'sonaule waythat -r',e can proceed with that. The second point ur6ught u! regaraingtraffic, one of the things that staff rookei at wai, i u"iieve tnegentleman from superAmerica brought this up as wer.r, the majority of thetraffic that wirl be serviced by superAmerica in fact is alieady there.Hov, many peopr-e drive 30 miles out of their way to go to the gas station?superAmerica right now is, r think you've heard their indicatlon is,depending on this movement to direcl the eastbound traffic into their siteand in onto the site from TH 41. From a traffic vorume standpoint, peoptewould rather take this free right turn i.f it,s granted by MnDot, riri uiand continue the continous path back out to TH 7 than they woulil coming'here, waiting at the righ!, making this turn, getting int6 superemerici,coming back out and doubling back. rf in fact MnDot comes ba-k and sayithat no access is permitted at this point, more than rikery it's bound to
Planning Commission Meet i ngAugust 3, 1988 - nage 38
Planning Commission Meeti ngAugust 3, 1988 - Page 39
reduce this traffic vo I umethat movement.
here because people are not as willing to make
Conrad: No, I don't agree with that. Yourre absolutely right, yourregoing to do the most convenient thing. That right in access is veryimportant. Itm sure it's very important to SuperAmerica. I don't knowthat theyrd vJant to be in this Iocation if they have, the same logic holdsto get in 3gg feet aeray from a site and try to work your way back to
SuperAmerica is not the most convenient access to a gas station either.Itm really concerned with the overall, traffic. The amount of traffic that
now potentially is in that site. Either coming in right-in or exiting bygoing through the HSZ site. Most of your gas stations are designed, you
get in and you go right back out to whatever highway. Nor^, we're routing
them, therers no right-out. Therers no right-out as we go to the north.
Yourve got to wind through the rest of the site and then we go out to a
congested intersection because the rest of the shopping center is going to
be pulling in some folks.
Roman Mueller: Increasing the left turn off of "lH 7?
conrad: But basically at this point in time Larry, youtre not concerned
about the amount of traffic. The amount of traffic that's coming to that
one intersection, that intersection wiII be able to tolerate in thefuture. Assuming that therers no right-in off of TH 7, you're convinced
that that one access will accomodate all the needs for the HSz site and
the SuperAmerica which could generate, I don't know how many cars an hour
but it would be a significant number of cars because it's a good
operation. It's a natural draw. People are going to go there regardless.
They're going to wind their way through. Not as many as if they had TH 7but they're still going to get there. You're not concerned?
Brown: obviously it's a concern. From staff's viewpoint itrs not a very
good traffic plan as you mentioned here and staff surely would have loved
to have these issues aII cut and dry before we had brought approval about.
Brown: From the HSZ site, HSz I believe, for their main access is going
to depend on this intersection on TH 4I right not^r. I donrt see any real
strong impacts with this. Obviously theyrre not going to have' as
I mentioned before, the entire volume that they would like to see coming
off of TH 7 because some people are going to say, it's more convenient to
keep on going through out to r"rherever but as far as the outlots, yes it
does have an impact because of the rerouting of traffic.
Conrad: what internal , within the Hsz site, r,rhat internal
problems do you see if the TH 7 is not there?
Conrad: How do you merge the shopping center traffic with
traffic? Is there any cross traffic there? It looks like
how do you get the other shopping center traffic in que to
TH 41? I'm directing my comments to our engineer because
tal-k about it but jump in if you've got some answers.
traffic
the gas stationthere isn't butget out onI wanE him to
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - page 4g
Roman MueIIer: One thing I wanted to point out that I don't know iftherers confusion here or what, but the comment about peopre from the sAwandering through the site is somewhat off because thi; i; the access offof the SA site to the service road onto TH 4l at this point. So theyr renot entering anything that is controrled drive. they lre not wanderingt.hrough this area. They do not have to come from this point down and fhenthrough and around. The access is here and the way our islands are raidout, it more or less funnels the people in that diiection.
Conrad: If we lose the. TH,7 site and you've got people coming and goingout and then coming right back dorrn, it's a t$ro way ind the onry aciess-tothe site. Then as you exit, how do you merge that lraffic with the trafficfrom the rest of the site? How is Lnat tinea upz r can't visualize it?How do the parking peopLe at the site get in line?
Emmings: If you're parked in here, how do
Roman Mueller: you,re going to have to go
Emmings: Okay,
there?
so the only way into this,
I get out
north up
you canrt go in anywhere along
approval of the gas pump permitIn other words, you would not
of there?
to the drive -
Roman MueIIer:
SA site and putentire bus i ness
and out of ournot going to go
closely.
Allen Putnam: I have a question. Is theand your convenience store tied together?do one without the other?
Correct. Only at this point. Take off of let's say thea stop sign there... Keep in mind from our aspect, ouris built around convenience. If a person can not move insite with some level of convenience, lre kno$, that theyr rethere. We go through the traffic issues very, very
Conrad: I'm sure you do. Irm sure yourre much more versed in it than I.
Roman Mueller: I,ve never presented that.
All-en Putnam: I assume they're considered as one?
conrad: rtrs kind of confusiog administratively from my standpoint rightnoer. In our public hearing we're trying both together iight now. Interms of how they approach it, a public hearing 6as to be held for aconditional use permit and that's what we,re r6arly going through butwe're really getting into some site plan reviews ,ig6t n5,, whic6 is sortof fogging some of these issues.
I have another question that,s related to, since he broughtrelated to the convenience store and that is, can you teilconvenience stores now, do you have any pornographii
AIIen Putnam:out the model,
me if in your
magazines?
Roman Muel-Ier:
at subs tan t i al
No, we
expense
not. They were pulled out a numberthe company. Bud, do you remember?
do
to of years ago
PJ.ann ing Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 4I
Bud KeIp: Yes, they were pulled out approximately 3 years ago.the convenience chain in the country to pull those books off ofshelves at a cost, profit of over 3 million dollars a year butit.
We were
our
we pul led
AIIen Putnam: And you have no intentions of putting Ehem back?
Bud KeIp: No sir.
Gene Conner, 252L Orchard Lane: In the consideration of the original HSzproposal, one of the prime reasons that came up over and over about the,lrould say, the necessity for a TH 7 access was for emergency vehiclesservice to that area. It hasn't been mentioned here at aII tonight. Iunderstand that the whole thing may not be viable but that was one of theprime reasons, aside from business. Your emergency services are on TH 7
and you put a gas station in there, and l know that they take aII thesafety precautions in the erorld, you are indeed increasing your risk ofthe need for emergency services vrhich I donrt think you can handle
adequately with TH 7 1ost.
I
Roman Mueller: One thing getting back to the TH 7 access, it's really notan issue with our conditional use permit.
Bob Wagner, 25LL Orchard Lane: Vle had a neighborhood meeting last
Thursday and of course some of the questions were addressed and theopinion was asked of how I felt. I said I'Il flow r,rith the feeling of the
neighbors who are closest and thatrs what Irm here to tell you about so
I'm addressing not myself but several people. Werve talked about, and
I'll try to jump over looks quickly, but we talked about cosmetics. LikeI have a mustache and this fella has a mustache, you felJ-as donrt but weall have faces and when we get right down to it, it's still a gas station.
Holrever cosmetic they want to figure, hre have a gas station. That brings,
in my opinion, contamination in several areas. Werve EaIked about thepossibility of contamination of fuel but r'd like to talk about the
intensity. The 24 hour useage. The type of fuel. If $re're goi.ng to have
deisel there, I realize itis not likely but deisel fuel can pull that oddtruck in that's running out of fuel to that thing at 2.AA in the morning.I'm not excited about that. The hours I th ink are a big issue. 9le satbefore this group and said we \rant BN to preserve the integrity and
somethj.ng l-ess than commercial. when I think of commercial, I think ofgas statioos and I think of 24 hours and I think a lot of the things we'relooking at here tonight, which I don't think is the direct j.on that theneighborhood and this group and the group above this one has talked about
Conrad: That is true. Werve merged t$ro issues here. We have and you didit, not me. You brought this up. I was trying to keep the items separatebut you decided to come up and show us this and that is merging site plan
review with conditional use permit request and I was trying to keep them
separate a little bit so we didnrt do what yourre experiencing right now.But anyway, as the Planning Commission operates, we will vote on those, wewill review them separately. Our discussion has merged the two together.It's still a public hearing.
Pl-ann ing Commission Meeti og
August 3, 1988 - Page 42
for 3 years. Traffic pattern has been mentioned and r don't think we needto go into that. The whole area to'me is, is this good for theneighborhood? Is it good for the area? When we talk about people driveby this and theyrre going to get gas if they need gas. WeII, that'sargument is good for people who drive by here and they can live inresidential houses here. people come by here and they could buy ahamburger here if it was something erse. r don,t lean to that argumentvery strongly. r do rean to something much less commerciar however and rthink thatrs been the intent and the integrity that the community and theCity of Chanhassen has worked for.
Gene conner: Arso, itrs been stated that the petition of the superAmericastation, and I have nothing against SuperAmerica. I buy a lot oi gas atsuperAmerica but the addition of a superAmerica station would add noaffect on the volume of traffic along TH 7 and TH 4I, thatrs probablytrue. rt wonrt increase the volume of traffic but therers a helr of a bigdifference between traffic ftowing by on the highway and stopping,starting and the general increasing to the nois6 coitaminati6i:, ii youwant to carr it contamination. r object strenuously to the concept of a24 hour operation out there as Bob wagner said. thit does not fii at alLwith r.vhat I think we were sold in a very fine selting job by HSZcorporation. The concept of a 24 hour iuer operatioi 6oes -not fit at arlwith the neighborhood shopping center and witir adequate berming and allthe rest of that, I think vre were sold a very f ine.-..
Bob Wagner:didn't have
It's not the win-win situation that Mr.last time and. . .
HeadIa thought we
Bud Kerp: My name is Bud Kel-p, r represent superAmerica as well as someof these other guys. one of the things about lhe 24 hour operation, thatis a period of time when rde do a lot of business. our .verige transactionin a 8 hour, 11:OA p.m. lo 7.Og a.m., is approximately 175 vehicles.Between rr:00 and l2a0g we would estimate on an average of maybe 50. Erom6.Ag to 7.gO a.m., on an average of 66. So from midnight to 6:00 a.m.vrerre talking about 65 or 6 1,/2 vehicles per hour. In that period oftime, that is when a rot of cJ,eaning up ii done in the store. stockingthe shelves, some of the paperwork is accomplished and policing of theoutside area. These are things that are done at night. A lot of timesyour tanker comes and drops itrs gas so that they,re not there in thedaytime congesting the driveway, blocking the driveway, whatever. Thequestion was asked how many transactions a day would ive assume we rrourdhave- rle $rould estimate approximatery a total of ggg transactions. Thatwould figure out to be, if they just took it over a 24 hour period, 33 anhour but_there are peak periods obviously. They might doubre that amountbetvreen 72gg and 8:30 in the morning.
Bob Wagner: 860
Bud Kelp: yes.
per day?
24 hours.
many did
Thatfs ia a 24 period.
and 7 z AO?
hour
lltqgBob Wagner: How you say between
Planning Commission l,tee t i ng
August 3, 1988 - Page 43
Bud KeIp: We estimated 175. Thatts an average. That's just bet$reen
11:90 p.m. and 7:OO a.m.. The other thing is that we cater to all people.
We have people going to work, everybody isn,t fortunate that can just workfrom 8:gg to 3.39 or 420A. Werve got people working second shift. We'vegot people working third shift. These people r they purchase gas. Theypurchase food items. They purchase things too. We're there for theirconvenience. It's a lot, we found, safer to be open 24 hours than it isto have an 18 hour. wetve had more incidents when the store closed at acertain given hour, be it llz7T or L2zg0. There srere incidents that
happened where the people were forced back into the store in a safesurrounding. Our crime rate at SuperAmerica is extremely low. We don'teven talk about it because we don,t have a lot of problems. I cantt even
remember, Irve got an area supervisor here that could probably tell theIast time he had a store hold up. I don't knor^r if he even had one.
Area Manager: During my 3 years as an area manager, Itve had one store innortheast Minneapolis that experienced a robbery. Basically my territoryis Burnsville, Eden Prairie, Mound and I've had those stores for the past
3 years, Irve never run into any kind of threatening, life threatening orrobbery or anything like that.
Bud Kelp: I guess what Itd like to sum up is that SuperAmerica wants tobe part of the conununity wherever werre at. we encourage our managers tojoin the local chambers or whatever. The company itself is city minded.
There are many, many things we do for the communities that we're in Iike
what I just did recently was donating of bullet proof vests to Twin Citydepartments. we did that at a cost of half a mj.llion dollars. We didthat in Milwaukee as well as here. Every city, for every store that it
had, received 3 bullet proof vests compliments of SuperAmerica. we just
had the big run for MS. $25g,Ag0.gg was donated. This was sponsored by
SuperAmerica. we're able to do these things, yes we are a big company.
There's no question about that but I think in each community werre small.
we're not big because v,re want to be a part of that community and we viant
the store to be a part of that community. We offer jobs to children. I've
been with the company for 23, going on 24 years and I came through the
ranks. I was a store manager at one point. I t{as an area supervisor at
one point. Today Iim working with the zoning and permit end of it. I've
seen a lot of young people come through our stores and today have very
responsible positions in the community and they're thankful that they got
their start at SuperAmerica. As far as the 24 hour issue, yes itrs
important for us to deal with. It is not mandatory for us. I wouldnrt
want to jeopardize the approvaL based strictly on the hours of operation
because we could compromise there. If it came down to it but there are
many things that need to be done during that third shift period of time.
We certainly wouldnrt I ike that option taken away from us.
sandy: I undersEand that superAmerica has...in the Twin Cities. I dontt
$rhat percentage of them are 24 hour operations but I do know that they
have a store at the corner of Ewing and Lake in downtovrn Minneapolis thatis not open 24 hours and it is in a neighborhood. ...a very cl-ean store.Itrs a nice store, thatrs fine but it is not open 24 hours and it doesblend in with the community. I think having to change...,which you
mentioned yourself during the night hours and my house is right over the
Plannlng Commi ssion l,lee t i ngAugust 3, 1988 - page 44
Roman Mueller: Out ofour site to your home?
curiousity, can I ask you vrhat the distance is from
corner, gearing do$rn and then gearing back up is totally unnecessarycontamination in our community. This is a neighborhood. They shouldconform to the neighborhood hours. They dontt go 24 hours a day. Wesreep at night because we work during the day and r think superAmerica,indeed you arrow them to come in here, even lhough r do not lgree that'they shourd because they have an access problem, they shourd conform tothe neighborhood.
if
Sandy: Oh, r{hat r^rould you say BiII? Itm
Bob Wagner: It,s one of the houses that
are obivously
Gene Conner: About that far -
Roman Mueller: Out of curiousity,
Sandy: My house is right here andher house is right here.
the hill.
development.
$rith the area than I
right over
borders the
Roman Mueller: you fol ksam. About I,5gg feet?more familiar
which side?
my neighbor is sitting next to me and
Roman MueIler: So relatively well blocked by all of
gearing dovrn andSaody: I currently hear the trucks
I can understand that. youtre going
Sandy: Irm going to hear
Roman t"lueller:
highway...
the development.
gearing back up now.
to hear an amount of
Roman Muel-ler: The
go ing i.n and out o f
Sandy: I rm concernedaccess. I rm concerned
you I ve said.
Conrad: Talk to us a littlegoing into this site?
by the 24 hour traffic. Irm concerned by theby the sound contamination irregardless of what
them going into SuperAmerica even more.
wise, you,re primarily concerned by the trucks
bit about trucks, diesel fuel and trucks
noise
there?
Roman Muerrer: currentry it's not planned to have diesel fuer in there.As long as werre looking for a lesson on contaminates, diesel fuel isactualry the least contaminate that you can put products in the ground.Trucks seem to be a concern. The tiucks "oii.rg-up and fuering iitr, --
diesel fuel , currently rrve been taking dieser iuel out of most rocationsthat have dieser fuel in it and it's nat scheduled to go in this locationso it's not going to be drawing the odd truck that com6s in there. A lotof the city trucks run on gasoline anyway. The noise that's in there,there's a condition in here under recomrnendation from staff that the
Planning Conmission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 45
public address system canrt be audible to any residential parcel. That'sin the condition. I believe $re can control that. That's not a problem.
We work with people on that aII the time. Truck noise, I guess lre canrtstop the trucks noise out on the highway and yes, there wiII be automobilenoise in the area no matter what. I would like to point out that ourbuilding separates from the islands to the areas as $relL as the other
developments in the area. The vegetation that Irve understood is going to
be planted in that area, I had one brief glance at the overall vegetationplan so that portion I can't speak for. And if I remember correctly onthe recommendation from staff, theyrre having us plant several coniferoustrees in that area to help block sound, Iight, etc.. We are addressingthat problem.
Gene Conner: Excuse me, this has gotten akin to, it sounds like do we
over here are trying to...SuperAmerica. That's certainly is not the case.
SuperAmerica I think, certainly I would be, SuperAmerica proposes a fine
operation. As service station operations go, I have no objections to
SuperAmerica. The objection that I think we all have is that it does not
fit with what r.re vrere told that this site plan approval for HSz was going
to be. It does not fit the neighborhood business concept of limited time,rather low key, quiet operation. No matter how fine your operation is,
you canrt convince me that itts going to be consistently quiet. It
certainly is going to be bright. It's going to be lit up all the time. I
can understand how they'd be...24 hour a day operation. I doubt if it
would be viable if it was completely limited to the hours that we would
Iike to see if gas tanks are allowed in there. . . . SuperAmer ican but it
does not fit with what we were sold very hard over a very long period of
time. In rezoning that from a single family to residential area all the
way up to a business neighborhood. Itrs exactly what many of us said we
were afraid of years ago. Once you start the commercialism, it is going
to go on and on and uprrard and upward until we lose control of it. we
feel wer ve lost control.
hearing. All voted in
was closed.Headla moved,
favor and the
Conrad :
issue of
separate
through
say?
Ellson seconded to close the public
motj.on carried. The public hearing
As we made comments, we'Il vote on these issues separately. The
the conditional- use and the site plan but I think it's hard to
them as we talk so feel free to address both issues as we go
the Corunission. Dave, start at your end. what do you have to
Sandy: This is indeed an escalation of what we had...
Bud KeIp: I have just presented some pictures that you can look at.
tighting. The type of lighEing that SuperAmerica uses at itrs location.
Downcast lighting. It does not light up the neighbors, especialJ.y this is
ideal, if the closest house is 5gg feet, they are not going to be affected
by the lighting of SuperAmerica. It is not going to shine into their
houses because as the picture illustrates, it's downcast Iighting.
Planning Commission MeetingAugust 3, 1988 - page 46
Headla: I talked to Barb about this.Iike the SuperAmerica at TH 4 and THdifferent hours and I think the homeswould be over here at TH 7 and TH 41.to Eden Prairie people?
I looked at this place as very much5. Irve gone in there at manyare pretty much the same as theyBarb, did you get a chance to talk
see
you
olsen: r discussed whatever issues they had for their Eden prairie site,
if !!gy had any probrems or rdhat good points or whatever. They did have atraffic issue because with the improvements to TH 5 and TH 4, ihe trafficwas going to have to be routed thiough residential streets io that wastheir major issue which was not a concern at this site. The righting,they_ said if they could change it they wourd have the canopy rights ;hichwe already have in a con<iition. The noise, it is also opui- z+ fiours, theyhave not had any conditions placed about that.
Dacy: I asked Jo Ann to contact the staff.
Headla: The 24 hour operation didn't bother them?
Roman Mueller: That weire
one 12r 000 gallon tank.
proposing here? Three lgrgT0 gallon tanks and
get a tankerthe one on
days .
unleaded
olsen: No, they wourd just reduce the amount of right, to receed them forany impacts Eo the surrounding area. The major issie was alain thetraffic, those commerical sites, they have a chiropracter brlsiness therearso, using that residentiar street. That ,as . mllo. issue. other thanthat, they had no real complaints from the neighborf,ood.
Headra: one of the radies that car-led me from that area was quiteconcerned about noise and traffic. Thatrs why r was interested towhat you found on that traffic. How big are those fuel tanks thathave in the ground ?
Headla: So you're bringing in maybe two tankers a day?
Area Manager: Most of our locations that are extremely busya day. For a station of this size, it is more comparable to169 by Flying Cloud Airport and that gets a tanker every twoSometimes one depending on the Eraffi6 but yourre lookiig atevery other day. The same size tanks.
Roman Mueller: And lre can, I should mention, control thedeliver. If therers a problem there at night, we have itto tell them so that can be something to consider.
Headla: So that would be the maximum major truck traffic going throughthere.
hours tha t
wi.thin our
the y
power
Headla: Ird kind of Iike to seejust office building in there andand ere let this other stuff. Nohrnow this thing 24 hours. I don,tpeople. That's nothing, I don't
it qo in there but we started outthen we made the neighbors bucklewe're going one more to gas pumps
knov, how far we should push thesehave anything against SuperAmer ica
wi th
under
and
at
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 47
aI1. I think maybe sretve come to a limit. The only other thing Irve goti.s I see an awful lot of conditions on the recommendations. When I seiall these conditions and it really tells me that your consultants didnrtdeal in earnest with the staff. Revise plan, revise plan. Revise thelandscaping plan. Provide plans. The site plan shall be revised. Revisethe plan. Why didnrt the act get cleaned up before this even came inhere? I just think it's excessive and somebody didnrt sit down and dealin earnest with this ap.
OLsen: A lot of those are just, the landscaping
issues were conditions of staff after it came in.that the applicant didnrt provide it.
Head I a 3 How come so many
you sit down
revised plans?
with the appl icant
the I ight ing
necessarily
and go through all this?
haven't seen them and
through recommendations on the
a motion where there are 8
rssue
Itts
and
not
Erhart: Did
Headla: You
obviously you
talk about revised plans and we
haven I t
what
2, 3,
seen them.
referring to?Roman Mueller:are you
IrmHeadla: I tems 4.on page 5
Roman Mueller: Okay, I guess I was going
Planning Staff. Their recommendations on
conditions on there.
Ernmings: You're Iooking at the conditional use permit. Hers looking atthe site plan.
Roman Mueller: Not having had a chance to 90 through it very well...
Bob wagner: If this is an open hearing, Irve got a few comments too.
Roman Mueller: Most
ordinance questions.
of these appear to be just
These are not a problem.
clar i fications on
Headla: For this size of plan, I think it's an awful lot of conditions.
Witdermuth: We're talking about the conditional use permit first right?
Conrad: I,Ihen we vote we wiII be talking about the site plan and then
condj.tional use but I thj.nk in terms of how we're going through here,
hard to not, the issues are so close that I canrt keep them apart so
I think the comments Jim, can be made regarding anything. site plan
gas station. Conditional use.
theit's
or
Wil-dermuth: I really sympathize wjth the people in the neighborhood. I
certaj.nly would not like to have a service station close by, with in 500
and 6qq feet of where I live despite the fact that. SuPerAmerica isprobably one of the class acts in the business. Irm really concerned
about the traffic, the increase in traffic that.'s going to happen in that
Planning Commission MeetingAugust 3, 1988 - page 48
area from that corner. It just looks l j.ke thatts a corner that rrould lenditself to a small office building. Accounting offices, something Iikethat rather than a relatively high intensity use. It's a confusingintersection to begin with on the north side going into the Shorewoodshopping center and r think this is going to confuse it further. r thinkthat the intensity is too great, too severe for this particular corner.
Conrad: You mentj.oned 800 cars a day, I converted transactions towhether thatts right or not, thatts what it is versus whatever elsegenerated there. 80a is not as many as I thought.
Conrad: So you,d rather table it?
cars,is
Errson: First r wonder why this didn't come through vrith the originarsite pran. r feel badly that maybe this was being discussed and ihe siteplan came through initialty because they thought that would go througheasier and now this is coming in rater. That would make me iearly aigrybecause as I said before, I was telling you people, you know it could-b6vrorse, you could have a gas station on that corner and here a few monthslater comes in that gas station. rn our ordinance erith a conditionar use,it has to meet a rot of different things such as it has to have approachesfor cars that are not going to create traffic congestion. rt's supposedto be compatible witir the surrounding area. Itrs not supposed todepreciate the surrounding property values. r think basEd on theseconditions, it's not going to be able to meet these things so Itd bevoting do$rn a conditional use permit for pumps.
Emmings: r donrt know where you start. r've been here with this propertycoming in front of us a few times and it's obviously a commerciat ior-ner.-There were a rot of people who didnrt agree vrith th;t but at least to meit was arways obvious that it's going to be developed as a commercialcorner. we also went to some real pains to make sure that as a commerciarcorner it would offend the surrounding residentiar neighborhood as rittleas possibre. r don't know exactry where that takes me but now we,re in asituation- where they're asking us to take the second step and rrm sittinghere thinking to myself, are we going to vrind up e/ith a gas station onthat corner and no shopping center because they wind up not riking that?r feer like we're taking step two before step one has iearry been taken.Before we decide on this, r'd really like to go back and look at the Hszthing and see if we \.rant to purr oui approvar of that based on the factthat there is one entrance. r don't think, every time werve got a projectthatts only got one entrance, vre've said no, we make churchei put in inextra entrance to the site because we worry about access for emergencyvehicres. The gentleman out here pointed out the fact tha! rire 6quiimentfor that area comes from the west on TH 7. They rearry need that iight inoff of TH 7- r donrt know why vre,re spending alt trris- time on this untirthat issue is resolved. That kind of botheri me. I don,t know why wehave to rook at this right now. Now r'm going to shi.ft gears and go theother direction for a whiIe.
Emmings: Oh yes. Like I say, I feel like we're taki ng step 2. werre onmushy ground with step r and it's just mushier vrhen you get up to step 2.That realry concerns me because r really think therei s a-possibility -here
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 49
that if a station were suddenly to appear up there on the corner, we maynever see that shopping center back there. I donrt know how committed HSZis to it. r feel like Annette, and I have of course no basis for this,that they were probably dealing with these folks when they brought in thisother proposal. Not I donrt know if they were or not but Irm suspiciousabout it and I donrt like it. I don't like the feeling I've got about it.Thatrs offensive to me. If they had something on an overall plan for the
whole thing, we should have seen that whole thing. Maybe that didnrt
happen that way. Letrs assume it didn't but yourre still stuck with thesituation where we donrt know if the HSz thing should have our approvalanymore. It r^ra s approved with an entrance off of TH 7. That entrance isnot there anl.more and I think $re ought to go back and make sure we know
erhat werre doing there before we look at this one. On the other handthough, I don't mind this particular plan. If therers going to be a gasstation on the corner r I donrt mind this one and I even think that area
down there needs a gas station. Somewhere in that west of Excelsior. I
would say that if they're willing to restrict the hours of operation...
wildermuth: Isnrt there one across the street?
Emmings: No, there r s not.
Vlildermuth: Isn't there one on the frontage road across the street?
Ermings: No. I live down t.here. I have to go all the way into
Excelsior. It's no big deal but I do 9o into Excelsior to get gas. Iftheyrre willing to limit hours of operation, if theyrre vrilling to tell
the tankers when they can come. It sounds like they're willing to be
flexible enough so that we could probably put something together here.
Another thing that I personally don't like is having all that pop and
stuff for sale piled up outside. I would want to impose a restriction on
that. I doprt mind the looks of the building. when you Pile up 432,OAA
cases of pop in front of it, it kind of takes asray from the overall appeal
as far as Irm concerned. Itm uncomfortable, I feel like we've taken a badfirst step and now I think werre being asked to take a second step and Idon't want to do it. I want to go back and look at step 1 before I even
look at this.
Dacy: I can appreciate your concern about the right-in only to the site
and what was originally approved with the HSz. I just vrant to clarify
that $rhen the City acted to rezone the site to Neighborhood Business
District, in that analysis we changed it OI to BN and there's a list of
permitted uses and a ]ist of conditional uses. vihether or not, yes the
shopping center was Proposed as a proposed user of the large Iot but in
rezoning the site to the Neighborhood Business District and making that
decision, the Council recognized that there could be applications for
conditional uses such as convenj.ence stores with gas pumps. Thatrs why
it's a conditional use because it's a different type of use that the
Commission has to evaluate whether or not the applicant is meeting the
standards of the conditional uses in the ordinance.
Emmings: Then, looking at it strictly that !ray, then Ird have to agreewith Annette. That there are several conditions of the requirements of
Planning Comm j.ssion Meeting
August 3, 1988 - page 50
the conditional use permit that this doesn,t meet.
Conrad: Which ones?
Bnmings: She read most of them.
Ellson: Traffic. Congestion.
Conrad: Traffic. Congestion.
Enmings: rt will be aestheticarry compatible trith the area. what is thearea? Are we talking about just the HSz site? I don't think so.
Ellson: wirr have the vehicurar approaches to the property which do notcreate traffic congestion. this is our basis right heie. or interferewith surrounding public thoroughfares.
Dacy: But the commissionrs concern is that you r,rant to make sure that theright-in from TH 7 is there, then that can be a condition of approvar orif you $rant to make sure that's going to be there and table ."lior,, that'sanother issue but when the Hsz prat came in, the traffic analysis ior theright-in off of TH 7 and the furl intersection of TH 41 $ras bised on anyuse that was going to be arlowed in that district could occupy those thieelots. The right-in only and the full intersection on TH 4r il tne restway to serve that center as a neighborhood business user. so are yousaying that the addition of the gas pumps is causing...
Mo re
41 .
congestion because people are stopping and
Dacy: But just recognize that that was the way itwould come in off of TH 7 and go to whatever thoseto be used for and then travel out onto TH 41.
EIlson: More traffic.then going off onto TH
was
two
Emmingss But Barbara, thatts not quite fair because, and IrIl tell youwhy r think itrs not quite fair. itrat ignores the whole history ot iheproperty. That ignores the whore controversy with the neighbori thatwerve heard over the 3 years r've been here ind that had to do hrith thefact that we don't rrant intensive use of this property. rt was a toughvote to get people. once we approved another ihopping center in ther6 andthat ended up not being approved. r made the motion on that. rn factr remember making the motion...lvant to rezone this piece because we knowwhatrs going there. Don'!t ask me to rezone these outlots until r knos,what's going on there and everybody said, oh no. you can,t do that.Thatrs spot zoning or something. r got shouted down on that. No onewould swing with me on that. should have done the sane thing here becausewhat they did is they came in with a pran for a nice rittre low intensityuse shopping center and thatrs what we focused on. werre not focused onthose empty outlots out there. They sord that to us as a low intensityuse that's surrounded by a residentiar neighborhood and we finarry arlagreed to take the step. okay, this is clearly a commercial corner, werregoiog to take this step to this row intensity use. This isnrt the same.This is a nuch higher intensity use and y". -it's recognized as a potential
intended. Tra ff icoutlots were going
Planning Commission MeetingAugust 3, 1988 - page 5l
use under the BN.
Dacy: Dontt misconstrue my comments. What Irm trying to drive at is, tomake sure that the planning Commission fuIIy understands and identifiesvalid reasons for deniar based on the ordinance standards. r just wantedto bring up the history when we looked at this site. That is Z ZT,gggsquare foot shopping center and that in itsel-f does generate a lot oftraffic exceeding the 800 trips per day of SuperAmerica. I just want tomake sure that you're fully aware of alt that.
Emmings: And I guess what $rer re saying is, if we donrt have
TH 7, do we want to have approval of that shopping center?
Dacy: Right. I'm not disputing those comments. If you feelabout that, then you have the option to make that a conditionbut the statements regarding not meeting the standards of theI just $ranted to make sure that yourre aware of all that.
access off of
strongJ.y
of approval
ord i nance ,
Emmings: WeII, do you?
standard, letrs say 8 orwith the area.
do you feel about the general issuing
That it wiII be aesthetically compatibte
Itrs located at
gas station out
and I have said, they
hours of operation
votj.ng for this. l,ty
How
Lg?
Dacy: They have exceeded our standards for construction.a maximum distance away from the neighborhood.
Olsen: ...with the new style of the brick.
Ernmi.ngs: I agree with that. If we're going to put athere, thatrs the spot to put it. I agree with that
seem to be willing to vrork. If they,Il curtail their
and when the trucks come, I could probably be sold onproblem is, without the access issue...
Erhart: The history is certainly a matter in this thing but looking at
$rhere ere are today and that werve zoned this as a business district andknowing quite frankly that SuperAmerica is willing to go in hereconsidering the questionable access, which I do think we ought to spend
more time at, I think we ought to be happy that they're going to take thatoutlot. That particular lot so you don't get a gas station on the lot tothe west because then you are going to have problems. I think what thereal thing you can do is make sure what goes into the oEher outlot is
compatible with the homes. That's it. I think you ought to look for arestaurant and be happy you're getting SuperAmerica as opposed to, I wonrt
mention any other names. That's the only comment I've got.
Conrad: I donrt know what I had envisioned for that lot. I probably
wasnrt thinking gas station at the time. I think if any operator is goingto go in, I'd prefer to have a SuperAmerica than anybody else but I will
echo some of the commenEs on overall traffic patEerns. That it just Iooksreal bad. We are looking at one parcel but as a part of the overall areaand it just makes me reaL nervous. Part of that is due, I think, City
Council- has made some recommendations that may not be the same as what wewould have liked to see in terms of access and at least in terms of r^rhat I
Planning Commission MeetingAugust 3, 1988 - page 52
would rike to see. r'm probabry playing with some ord memories of thingsthat r envisioned differentry with that parcer versus what r'm seeing thearea turn out to be but overarl rrm still nervous with the traffic ftow inthat area. Itrs not the site as much as it is, it's not this particularsite tonight, it's the overall site. Itrs going to be tough for me, Iguess I don't have as many problems with SuperAmerica going in therebecause rrd rather have a fine operator in there than somebody whors notso fine but I go back and I have to relate to r.rhat Steve has iaid. Whatif the shopping center doesnrt go in and I donrt know if that'snecessariry logic that we can use in making our recommendation heretonight but it wouLd bother me if the shopping center didn't go in. you
had a comment?
Roger zahn: I should just clarify this TH 7 access. MnDot had approvedthat right-in onry about a harf a dozen times verbalry at meetingi and acouple of times in hrriting. It wasn,t until last Thursday when ;e got acall from Larry saying that gee, now they may be questioning that iisue.That there might not be access off of TH z. rt came up and obviously weerere a little surprised after having it approved so many times. we have ameeting with l,tnoot on Friday. The resurt of that meeting is that r expectthe approval r^, i II be granted.
Conrad: But. you don't know.
Roger zahn: r can't say before right now so obviousry from my standpointIrd have to do some rethinking if the access wasntt granted... I canttspeak for them. rt certainry would add some issues that were acldressed inthe meeting and with some studies from our consurtants that r really don'tthink it would be a probJ.em so the idea of making it conditional up6napproval of the TH 7 access doesnrt bother me at arr. r would prefer it.
Emmings: Did they at Least tell you $rhen they would
the end of
make a deci sion?
Roger Zahn: I hopeI've heard i nf o rmal
something by the week informal butto hear
before.
conrad: r donrt want to deray this. rtrs getting late tonight. r thinkIrve heard SuperAmerica say things that I,d like to hear. I probablywourd vrant to put them into words or paper but the rimiting oi trre tiucktraffic and the dieseL fuel, aLthough that may be minor, i[ stilf may besomething that I'm concerned with. I,m conceined with the hours ofoperation fitting in. I think that was, the concept of businessneighborhood is just that. rt fits in. other business neighborhoods thatr knoe, of, it fits into the community and r wilr hotd you t5 those types -
of concepts. It fits into the community. werre not fitting into TH'i:wer re_not. fitting into the shopping cenier across the way. we're fittinginto chanhassen and the community ltrat,s right there. r want that to bedone. r think the aesthetics of the buirding is a nice start but on theother hand, there are sone other things that r r^rant to fit in and hours ofoperation might just be one of those things. r'm stilr concerned withdisaster. I heard some good things from SuperAmerica Eonight and Iguess r need those things. in writing. r need to know Ehat our drainageproblems are sorved even in a disaster situation. r want to knov, whai
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 53
they are. I think thatrs the biggest issue. I'm not going to deal- with
concepts and Larry probably, you folks have worked with it so much more.
When we Iook at it, we spend a half an hour looking at papers and r.re don'tget into it that deeply but I want to know that we're covered generally interms of run-off and I think sre are. I think the skimming devices soundgreat but I also need to know that disasters are taken care of too. I
heard those nice words tonight but I just wouldn't feel good about havinga disaster on that site and not having us be able to handle it or have thestorm water system take it right to Minnewashta. I wonrt deal erith thatparticuLar problem. Irve got to know we've resolved it and naybe they arebut I'm not comfortable that they are right now. I guess the traffic andthe circulation of the site remains to be the biggest issue for me. Notonly the SuperAmerica site but the overall site. I guess this adds to
some of these other cotnments that Dave brought up. Should revise and
should revise. I think the revisions are pretty small and Irm not holding
SuperAmerica or anybody responsible. I think itrs just a matter of staff
reviewing them and making those comments. I guess some of those thingsIrd like to have, when it gets to City Council, they should be taken care
of and there shouldn't be that many revisions that have to come. Ird like
to see those back here personally and I guess my idea tonight would be totable this until we can get a better handle on some of the items. Maybe
until we get a better handle on the TH 7 item and that may be very simple.
You may just come back and say it's approved. I guess I have a Lough
time, I'm approaching it from an entirely different standpoint tonight
without the TH 7 access. Irm just really caught up in overall site
traffic. It bothers me that I see some little lines on there that Larry's
telling us that may be an access in there and maybe not through
grandfathering or whatever. I don't know what that means but that bothers
me. It bothers me that we may have only one access to the overall
Iocation and I donrt feel good giving this site the go ahead when I donrt
know that the whole location has two sites so my preference is to table
the item. I'm sorry for the neighbors, maybe r.re do that tonight, maybe we
don't but we bring you in here every 2 weeks and take you through the
exercise but unfortunately when you're in an area that has land in it,
that's wanted, the good news is they're a great operation. The bad ne$rs
is, they're a great operation that vrants to be in your neck of the woods.
I guess the only other comment I have, the only other thing that affects
me is this 866 cax count. I thought superAmerica woul-d pull in more cars
than that. I really did and 800 really seemed, I can almost accept 806 as
not being a major change in intensity because a restaurant might generate
4AA or 5gg. A gas station I thought would pull in a lot more and
especial.Iy the pulling power of SuperAmerica. They're like putting a Cub
in a location where you can pull from 17 miles around versus a couple. so
any$ray, for those reasons I prefer to have it tabled and maybe have it
back here when we have a little bit more clarification on TH 7.
do you people feel about berms between the highway and there?
secure or more secure for you?
Head la :
Is tha t
Hol^r
less
Roman Mueller: We have berms in many, many of
site plans by conditional use requirements such
Iocations put into our
what you I re. . .
our
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - page 54
Roman MueIIer: That doesn't botheroutside displays or sales, that was
Headla: I thought that $ras a good
Roman I'luell,er: It, s not a concern.
Randy Peterson: AI1 Iwith tonight is if at
concerns of yours vri th
recommendations to goa timeframe here. Ird
we I re scheduLed also,
Gene Conner: The subject of conditionalto me I heard Barb's comments impLy thatrequest for a conditional use permit, ifto be accepted.
us. Either does conditions for norequested.
point that Steve made.
was going to say was, what I'd Iike to come awayall possible is to be able to work out thesestaff and get your, if possibl-e, yourto Council wi.th because we are on some little bit ofIike to go that $ray rather than to table it becauseand we can work out those conditions with staff.
conrad: r know you can. r guess r'11 leave that up to whoever makes themotion tonight. we do that occasionally when we w"nt to get rid of anitem. _werll get it out. of our court and werrl kick i.t up to city council.rf we don't want to see it and we want to 1et the neighb-ors have their saywith the City Council folks, we will do that.
Gene Conner: Therers a lot of other concerns being expressed, may IexPress one?
Conrad: Sure.
use permlts came up and it seemsgee, anybody who comes in with ait's a nice plan, it really ought
conrad: r don't think thatts the case. what $re try to do on conditionaluses is detail what those conditions are. The cityis getting much betterat that. rn the past hretd say it requires a conditionir use-permit but wedidnrE have any conditions so they'd come in and say gee, no$, vre get tolook at it but there are no conditions so we might as wei.r grant it butwerre quite a ways away from that in thj.s day aid age, at l6ast inchanhassen and the staff has gone through it, rooke; at the conditions.Made their recommendations to us. we have a disagreement between staffand Planning commission on interpretation. rs th6 noise signiricaniiy-increased? Traffic increased versus what the staff perceiv6d to bepermitted under a conditionar use so r think there's some differences ofopinion but the conditions are stilr there. staff does not normally 90through, staff turns down many things because of conditions.
Gene conner: r think r can assure you that Ehis doesn't fit our idea of aconditional use that should be permitted.
Dacy: My comment vras that this is why it's a conditional use. It,s apubric hearing process r.rith specific ltandards. The applicant has theburden of proof to prove whether or not he meets Ehose l-0 standards.
Head l- a :
goes?
Okay, so that doesn't bother you as far as property or anything
Planning Commission MeetingAugust 3, 1988 - page 55
Yourre saying that they're not meeting those standards. Thatrs fine. TheCommission then has to decide $rhether or not the information theysubmitted about traffic and the lighting and aesthetic quality and noise
and no diesel fuel, if that satisfies those concerns.
Bob wagner: It's just amazing that we're even sitting here talking abouta gas station after the discussions that I've heard the same group talkabout those. I just canrt believe it.
Allen Putnam: Yourve expressed a concern about the 8OO caxs and using thenumbers that you gave me where you indicated from 11:gg to 7:96 you haveabout I75 cars. Thatrs from 1I:90 to L2.0A you said 50 of them... withthose hours being the low hours, if you take the 50 cars per hour and takethe other 16 hours in the day, that adds up to 869 and then you put the175 on top of that from !L.66 to ?.9q, itt s already 975.
Bud KeIp: No, thatrs including that. Subtract the I75.
Allen Putnam: I understand that but Irm thinking the 50 carssaid you had between II:00 and midnight. If you averaged thatdaytime hours, which you indicated were busier hours, just thehours, excluding those 8 hours you have us, would be 800 cars.hours is 800 plus 175.
per hour you
for your
other 15
5g by 16
Bud Kelp: 24 hours time the 800, you,re looking at 33 cars per hour.
Conrad: I think I want to do something here before we all go to sleep.
gas station Iike maybe the Tom Thumb in their business neighborhood on
TH 10I is a Iow intensive gas station use. I think here we do, in mymind, we have a little bit different intensity and it has been zoned
business neighborhood. Itts a real matter of perspective in terms ofintensity. They may get, in that particular Iocation, they may get 4 orcars for gas in an hour and thatrs a whole lot different than 30 or 5A or]-5A. Anyr^ray, my recommendation $ras to table it for a little bit moreinformation and review it again and brjng the folks back but I'II open itup for any recommendation that somebody would like to make.
Anmings: Just as a quick conment, I think that Dave's point is very weIItaken. we shouldn't get these hrith, this will provide you with an
opportunity, instead of having 17 conditions on here, it should come backwith 3 or 4. The rest of this should all be incorporated in the plan. Ithink these are real hard to work on when theyr re this long. Tim,actually brought it to my attention. When we first opened this up hesaid, what i.s this.
Dacy: A lot of these are standard conditions.
Emmings: I under stand
care of even before it
goes to Council.
think a IoE of the
and should be taken
could be ta kenof before it
that but I
comes here
stuff
care
A
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 56
Headla moved, Hnmings
#88-10 and Site Plancarr ied.
seconded to table
Review #88-10. A11
the Conditional Use Permit Requestvoted in favor and the motion
Ellson:. Are }re saying until we know about TH 7 or are $re tabling itindefinitely or having a reason to come back?
Wildermuth: Do you want to put some conditions on the tabling?
conrad: r think we can give staff direction in terms of what werd like tosee them bring back. r think the items deserves attention and hopefurlycan be back here in two weeks so $re donrt destroy a time tabLe. f,d suierike-to see the neighborhood back here again but r think if we can givestaff some direction after this so maybe lire can make the motion and thenteII them what werd like to see. I think basically, traffic to theoverall site is a major deal. I think the pol,lution control or thedisaster issue for me is a concern that Ird like you to work withsuperAmerica on so we know hov, it wourd be handlei and we wourd know ifitrs going to get into the Minnewashta system or not. Hours of operationis probably a concern that we arr have and whether or not thatrs lomethingthat courd be worked in the staff report. steve, yourre concerned withthe...
Emmings: Hours the trucks come
merchandise for saIe.
to deliver and outsjde display of
Wil-dermuth: Also no diesel fuel .
conrad: And possibirity maybe working with the superAmerica forks Eoresolve any of the conditions. rf they have to stay out there, that'sfine- r don't think you need to do exira work to tiy and bundre them inand make them do that additionar work but if they can incorporate them intheir prans and the documents they'!ve given us, it wourd be good to havethat so when it goes to City Council, Council can see everytfiing in anice, neat package. Anything else?
PUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING ORDI NANCE
6 (B) , ACCESSORY
Conrad: I don'tpublic hearing.
AI.IENDMENT TO AMEND
STRUCTURES, ClTY OF
believe that staff
SECTION 2g-994 AND SECTION 2g-6L5
CHANHASSEN.
has to give a report on that. It is a
wirdermuth moved, Emmings seconded to crose the public hearing. ArL votedin favor and the motion carried. The public heaiing hras closed.
Erhart: Page 3, item 5, the way I read this now, it says detached
il qff agriculturaL and residential districts. CLarify- for me, aredifferentiating between detached garages and storage bilildings?
Dacy: We wanted to make sure that a detached garage $ras...
garages
we
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - Page 57
Emmings: But the storage building might be one of those purchased ones.
Erhart: I guess what I was trying to get to and Dave and I agreed on thisone is that on lots of, I guess we settled on 5 but anything of lots lessthan 5, no one could build a building over LIA6A square feet and it had tobe architecturally consistent with the house. Somehow that's not the waythat reads to me. To change it to read that would be, say detachedbuiltlings and storage buildings on lot sizes of 5 acres or less inagricultural and residential districts must be architecturally. The 5acres is gone completely.
Ellson: The little Sears storage building, you
Erhart: On lots of 5 acres or less.
Wildermuth: I don't think you can do that can
Dacy: This is one that we discussed around and
could put in those.
you? Do we
around and
want to do it?
basically you
less,
i t on
proposed it as this way.
Erhart: well, if thatrs what we agreed, thatrs fine. Is that what you
understood Dave?
Headla: I'm not sure when this was here what I understood which one.
Erhart: The way itrs going here now is that on lots of 5 acres or
they can go buy a Sears or a I'lennards building of any size and put
that lot.
Head Ia :
Erhart:
HeadIa:
On5
Yes.
Tho se
acres or less? You can put up a pole barn?
Really anything.
little Sears buildings, therers nothing wrong with them.
Erhart: No, but Irm talking about it could be a La,o6a square foot pole
barn and they could... It says can not exceed 1,906 square feet in the
Rsg and R-4 districts.
wiLdermuth: I don't see hord you can enforce number 5. Architecturally
consistent, what does that mean?
Dacy: We dj.scussed that issue also. we had the concern that the size of
an ag parcel and so on, that there were a number of folks out there that
want to have the hobby farms and so on that would want a Larger sized...
Erhart: I agree. I thought
were talking about.
anything over 5 acres I thought is what we
Dacy: But we were saying for Iots less than 5 acres or if there would be
occurrences of that in the ag area that somebody may want to put up a
1,500 square foot build ing. The Commission talked about that and said,
Planning Commission Meet i n9
August 3, 1988 - page 58
letrs not restrict the ag areas.
Erhart: Is that what we agreed? Is that what you guys erant? Thatrsfine. r thought Dave and r made a good argumeni ttrit on these lot sizesor 2 L/2 and 5 acres that tend to be clustered and they tend to beneighborhoods and people put real nice homes on it and consistentarchitecture. I thought we successfully argued that in thosecircumstances, that they should not be allowed to put these Mennardrsbuirdings on there. 2rggg ox 5,a00 square foot ana it they reatry wantedto do that, they had to buy bigger tfran S acres.
Olsen: A 1ot of those subdivisions, like Lake Riley Woods, the sizeacreage that you're talking about, have covenants that restrict storagebuildings like that. I knor,, that's out of our control.
Dacy: Tim, are you proposing that that would be still, that the parcelsunderneath 5 acres in the A-2 zones wourd also have the maximum oi L,goosquare feet?
Erhart:. I thought thatrs what we agreed but itrs been so long. Moreconcerning than the vray it's written right now is that you say detachedgarages for arl agriculturar. That means you courd trave lgg icres and you$rouId have to have your garage architecturally, unless you,redifferentiating between a deiached garage and-a storage-building.
Dacy: Yes, we are. That,s why we made that clarification.
Erhart: I think you're probably right. It's not worth battling overanymore.
Dacy: If you're going to amend it, number 3 vJould be where you would.
conrad: Tim, you read us on this one. r'm sorry. rrm sort of burned outand I can't help you much.
Dacy: werve got a stacked agenda in two rdeeks on the l7th. If you $rantto table it. . .
Conrad: No, I donrt $rant to table it.
Erhart: Itrs not that important.
Conrad: Are you comfortable with the way this is?
wirdermuth: Yes, as Long as you don't get into storage buildings. on my4 acre rot r want to be abre to put up i uuitaing to store anti{ue ""r".'Yourre going to tell me that it has to be architecturarry consiitent withmy house, Irm going to tell you hey, take a hike. But, i ttrink your lointis that you're talking about garages here right? Detached garages.
Erhart: Maybe Barbts right. Maybe the best sray to handre that problem isto have restrictive covenants in the deveropment. rf the developers saythese are going to be architecturalry consistent, maybe thatrs the best
Planning Commission Meeting
August 3, 1988 - page 59
way itrs handled. Irm will j.ng to believe...
Wildermuth: I think it's going to be tough to enforce.
Conrad: Tim, do you want to change some words here?
Erhart: No, I think
that 3 acres. You're
had anything greater
all understand that?
itrs fine. I think it's fine other than item (c),
satisfied Barb, that's what we understood? If youthan 3 acres you can build a shed on it first. Do we
Dacy: In any residential district or agricultural district, parcels withless than 3 acres. In the ag district.
Erhart: That means to me that anything more than 3 acres you can build a
shed on before you build a house.
Dacy: If the shed or building is storing agricultural equipment or
anything that could be directly related to the principle use of theproperty as ag, than it would be permitted as a permitted use.
Erhart: Then the question is,
residential district?
is it 3 acres or should you remove
Dacy: We want to keep it the residential district part
you donrt want somebody building accessory building and
have a Iot prior to the...
in there because
somebody might
Emmings: If you take out the clause that says, or agriculturalparcels with less than 3 acres and just read around that clauseperfectly good sense from that.
Erhart: Yes, just take out the phrase, or agricultural district.
district
it makes
Wildermuth: Why wou ld
Dacy: It was reducedor 4 acres that are in
you
to3
ag.
say 3 rather than 5?
because there may be parcels that are 5 acres
Erhart: It's f i.ne.
Erhart moved, Headla seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of the following amendments to Sections 20-904 and 20-515 (6b)
and an addition to the definitjon of the City Code as presented by Staff.All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Dacy: No.
Erhart: Isnrt that rdhat it says?
Emmings: No, I'm not saying that. I say leave residential district in
because it makes sense for residential. I don't understand the
agricultural with less than 3 acres.
-
Planning Commission MeetingAugust 3, 1988 - page 60
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Enmings moved, EIIson seconded to approve theMinutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated JuIy 20, Iggg asPresented. AII voted in favor and the motion carried.
Headla moved, Emmings seconded to adjourn the meeting. Alr voted in favorand the motion carried. The meeting was adjounred at 11:35 p.m..
Submitted by Barbara DacyCity Planner
Prepared by Nann Opheim