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04-17-91 Agenda and PacketFiIe AGENDA CHANHASSEN PIANNING COII{I.{ISSION I|IEDNESDAY, APRIL 17, 1991, 7:30 P.M. CHANHASSEN CITY IIALL, 690 COULTER DRIVE CALL TO ORDER PUBLTC HEARINGS OLD BUSTNESS 2 ],. TTEIA ITEU E}8 BEEN TAATED I'NTIL rtAY 1, 199Ir1. Subdivision and lot area variance for property located inCarver Beach zoned RSF, Residential Single Fanily and locatedat 6724 Lotus Trail, Roger and Darlene Byrne. Prelirninary Plat to subdivide 9.14 acres into 14 single fanilylots on property zoned RSF, Residential Single rlrnily anillocated north of Hwy. 5 on T. H. 1Ot, Kurvers point ZndAddition, vanDoren Hazard Sta1lings. Zoning ordinance Amendnent to clarify Zoning Adninistrator asPlanning Director. 4 Amendment to Site PIan Approval anending the signage for thechanhassen Medical Arts Facility located at 4ro West 78thStreet. NEW BU STNESS APPROVAL OF MINUTES CITY COUNCIL UPDATE ONGOING ITEMS ADIqINISTRATIVE APPROVAIS OPEN DI crJss roN 5 Presentation/Sl ide Show on Bluff Creek by perry Dean and EricRoth. 6. Discussion items: a. colf Course Conmittee Update - Joan Ahrensb. City Council Goa1s Session ADfOT]RNITENT CITY OF EHINH[SSEN STAFF REPORT PC DATE: CC DATE : CASE #: By: 4/L7 /eL 5/L3/et 8?-14 SUB olsen/v I Fz () =(LL E tIJFa Prelininary PIat for Kurvers point 2nd Addition toSubdivide 9.14 Acres into 14 Single Fami1y Lots West of Ewy. 1o1 approxinate).y 1 nile north of Hwy. PROPOSAL: LOCATION : APPLICANT: 5 VanDoren Hazard StallingsSuite 104 3030 Harbor Lane No.llinneapolis , Ir{N 55447 -2L75 PRESENT ZONING: ACREAGE: DENSTTY: ADJACENT ZONING AND I,AND USE : WATER AND SEWER: PHYSICAL CHARACTER. : RSF, Residential Slngle Fanily 9.14 acres 1.53 units/acre (gross, 1.77 u/a (net) N - RSF, single fanily S - RSI', single fanily E - Eder Prairie Single Fanily W - I-otus Lake Available to the site. The site contains lakeshore property 'and landthat was used for agricultural purposes. 2OOO I,AND USE PI,AN:Iow Density Residential I Dlelvin Kurvers 7440 Chanhassen Road Chanhassen, llN 55317 ooa o 11 I ooooolal I ooN Yc cAs tL/"c,lsc DE FIO6E COURT AOEolaE sxar cncLE rrEst 6200 llJ tt{lJr ctrLE TAtT O LYFIC CI'CLI 6JOO I oicL 6rloo FOX ltoLLoll on rvE RSF -6700 oo -6600 R12 6900 -7tOO -72OO -7toc acg1gg 4fi(G0 Y*ffi 2Taoo RD I' L OTU8 SHAOOWYERE LAI(E o8ot I J-E t- I { It --J ato oc 7t ST Et _:77OO 6600 -tcoo oolDc I Kurvers Point znd AdditionApriI 17, 19 91 Page 2 PROPOSAL/ST'MMARY The applicant is proposing a prelininary plat to subdivide theremaining 9.14 acres of the Kurvers poin€ suUaivision into 14single fanily lots. This area was prelininary platted in L987along with the original Kurvers point lubdivision ;hich called fora total of 42 lots on 35 acres lrith the first phase containing 27and the renaining 15 lots in the second phase. The first phase ofthe subdivision has been developed and nany of the l6ts havealready been developed. These homes are served by a tenporary cul--de-sac on Kurvers Point Road which connects with Hwy.- 101,,- Theapproved plans ca1Ied for the extension of this cu1-dL-sac with aloop connection back to Hr,,y. 101 in the second phase ofdevelopnent. Normally, .on1y a fina.I .pIat woutd be required to conplete theproject .since .a preliminary plat was ap-proved for tie entireproject including phase 2. Holrever, the developer is proposing asubstantial deviation in the prat that would replace thi ltop roadconnection with a cul-de-sac. There is also a d.ecrease in thenunber of additional home sites fron 15 lots dor.rn to 14. Access was one of the primary considerations during review of theoriginal proposal and_ is one of the prinary issuej today. Staffh?:-me-t with the applicant on several occasions indicatinig that itwill be our reconnendation that the loop road conn"6tion bedeveloped as originalLy approved or that a sriitable alternative, ifpos<ible, that provides this connection be adopted. Our positionis based upon cornrnonly accepted planning -practices iherein,excessively long cu1-de-sacs reduce iccessitility tor residents,increases tirne for .emergency vehicle accesi and presentssignificant problerns in case the road becones blocked- eitherthrough parked cars, douned trees, waternain breaks, or otherincidents. We fulLy understand the validity of this issue and arepresented with a not uncomnon occurrence where residents who havemoved in to the first phase now obj ect to the conpletion of theroad l-oop. The applicant aLso makes a point that hbnes on a cul-de-sac are more desirable than hones on a loop street, a factorwhich staff could not dispute. Lastly, the applicant naintainsthat a loop road connection would introduce a lirge volune of non-neighborhood traffic into this area. Staff finds it inccinceivablethat this is the case in any significant neasure since Hwy. 101 isthe more direct routing and apart fron soneone who is lott, thereis really no reason for external traffic to enter this area. staff finds that we cannot support the appticant.s proposat ioserve the subdivision lrith an overly long cul-de-sac. titostcomrnunities prohibit cu1-de-sacs in excess of 5OO feet. Thechanhassen Code raises concerns rrith over 1ength cul-de-sacs butunfortunately does not provide a specific length at which this Kurvers Point 2nd AdditionApril 17, 1991 Page 3 becomes unacceptable. we have tried to develop a nurnber ofalternatives for consideration. These alternatives are describedin detaiL in this report but it essentially cones down to arelocation of the second entrance onto Kurvers Point Road furtherto the south. This alternative should avoid the sight distanceconstraints present in the original approved proposal and could,with MnDoT's approval, elininate the need to lower grades onnainline Hwy. 101 to nake a safe intersection. The secondalternative concerns the use of a right-in/right-out only for the southern nost loop connection that also avoids the sight distance problerns. Staff continues to have a preference for the originally approved concept. In other respects, this proposal is fairly straight forward. Issues pertaining to grading, drainage and utilities are fairly minor and can be accornrnodated by appropriate conditions. ess Ite ati Since the City Council approval in 1987, the Sosinrs, who livedirectly to the south, have rnoved their driveway to the south sideof their property, which provides separation between their driveway and the subject property. The relocation of the Sosinrs driveway aIlows the aLternative for noving the fu1l access to the south to again be considered. The full access vould have to be at least 30feet fron the south property line. Another alternative is to leavethe access where it was approved but reduce it fron a fu11 accessto a right-in,/right-out only access. lilnDoT has given prelininary approval to allowing a right-inrzright-out at the present location and to not require cutting down the hill on TH 101. Staff did not consider a right-out only and an energency access due to these notresolving safety issues and in fact maybe creating trafficproblems. One final option was to provide a stub to the Sosinproperty for future access whenever that property is subdivided, and provide a tenporary access to TH 101 rrhich uould be renoved when the road to the Sosinrs rras developed. Staff elininated thisoption from consideration r,rhen we reviewed the subdi.visionpotential for properties to the south and found. that a roadextension would not be possible due to the decreased depth of thelots created by the location of Lake Lucy. The current location ofthe Sosin's driveway would better support a joint access betweenthe sosin and Oelschlager properties rather than a frontage streetfrom Kurvers property (Attachnent #4). A summary of the street access options are as follosrs: EXHT ITA (see attached) Provides a fuII intersection and secondary access which staffstrongly recommends. Kurvers Point 2nd AdditionApril 17, 1991 Page 4 o RepLaces fulI intersection with a right-in/right-out atoriginal location.o Does not require inprovenents to TH 1OI.o Provides separation from the property to the south.o Is not as effective as a fuII intersection for traffic andsafety and can result in safety probleurs with drivers abusingthe intersection. EXHIBIT C (see attached) o Relocates fuI] intersection to the south.o Provides ful1 intersection.o Does not require renoval of the hill on TH 101.o Requires a right turn lane and a by pass lane.o Locates street and intersection near another property.o May stil1 be opposed by residents. EXHIBIT D (see attached) Kurvers Point Second Phase cul-de-s ac PIan o Replaces fuII intersection with trro cuL-de-sacs.o Inconsistent with original approval.o Does not provide secondary access.o 41 lots on a 11700 foot long cul-de-sac.o opposed by staff.o Acceptable to residents and applicant. The alternatives shorn on Exhibits B and C nust be approved byMnDOT r./e would like to get the Sosinrs coEments aue -to tfreiiearlier involvenent. Staff is arranging a neeting betlreen I.{nDOT,staff, applicant and the sosinis for their connents. Until thisrneeting occurs and lre receive soDe tlrpe of confirnation from MnDOT,formal action should not be nade using alternatives shohrn onExhibits B and C. If Exhibits B or C are pursued, a revisedpreliminary plat rrould also .be required. If the planning Commission is in favor of Exhibit B or C, a motion should be madeto continue the review until revised plans are submitted. Formalaction can be made on the proposed prelirainary plat rrith the cul-de-sac should the Planning connission so desiie. To make a formal reconmendation at this tine, the balance of thereport contains a review of the proposed prat lrith recoramendations. o fs consistent with original approvaL.o Requires inprovements to TH 101.o Provides separation fron the property to the south.o opposed by residents of Kurvers point and applicant. EXHIBIT B (see attached) Kurvers Point 2nd AdditionApriL 17, 1991 Page 5 As stated previously, staff is not in favor of the proposed plans with the cuI-de-sac and wifl be recommending denial . PROPOSAL The applicant is proposing a prelininary plat to subdivide the rernaining 9.14 acres of Kurvers Point subdivision into L4 singte fanil,y lots. Tlrpicalty, the applicant wouLd have just subnitted afinal plat for the second phase for City Council approval . Due to significant changes to the second phase, the applicant is requiredto go through the prelirninary plat review in front of the Planning cornmission and prelininary and final plat approval by the cityCouncil. The most significant change to the second phase, frorn lrhat was approved with the original prelininary pIat, is the repLacenent of the second street connection to state Highway 101 with a cul-de-sac. Lot confiquration The prelininary plat consists of one block with 14 single fanily Lots. The 1ot sizes range froD 20r350 square feet to 33,225 square feet with an average 1ot area of 24,570 feet. The proposed second phase contains 1 less lot than was approved with the firstprelirninary plat and the proposed Lots contain nore lot area, depth, etc. The 14 lots are located along tlro cul-de-sacs and along Lotus Lake. The lots neet the requireroents of the zoning ordinance. Lots 4 and 5, Block 1 and a portion of the street right-of-way contain existing structures adjacent to Lotus Lake, and a loop driveway with two access points to TH 101. The existing structures and driveway will be renoved as part of the second phase. The Building Departnent requires demolition pernits for rernoval of theexisting structures. Any we11s and septic systens Dust be properly abandoned. Lots 4 and 5, Block 1, which contain the structuresalso have existing accesses to lotus lake. The applicant isproviding staff with a detail plan on the existing lake accessesfor Lots 4 and 5, Block 1. The lots contain steep and vegetatedslopes. Therefore, the exj.sting accesses shall be maintained forthe ne$, hones on Lots 4 and 5, Block 1. New access to Lotus Lakeon Lots l.-5, Block 1 uill not be pernitted. A condition of approval for the original prelininary plat requireda tree removaL plan for certain lots at the tine of building pernitapplication and an overall tree naintenance prepared by the DNRForester. The tree naintenance plan was prepared (Attachnent #5)and tree renoval, plans should still be required for Lots 1-5, 9, 10and 14, Block 1. Kurvers Point 2nd AdditionApril 17, 1991 Page 6 Lot Area I,otidth Lot DeDthw Se Home tback Ordinance BIOCK 1Lot 1 Lot 2 Lot 3 Lot 4 Lot 5 Lot 6 Lot 7 Lot I Lot 9 Lot 10 Lot 11 Lot 1,2 Lot 13 Lot 1.4 .28,975 20,900 20,35O 22,675 33,225 26,500 25, 300 26 ,225 20 ,7 50 22,O5O 24,8OO 23 r750 24 ,4OO 2L,9OO 90 r 125l 30r front/rear 10r sides N,/A160 r 115 r 105 r 115 r. 90r 90r 90 r 95r 2301 180 t 100 r 901 115 r 2201 2701 200 | 150 r 200 r 260. 180 | 155 r 200 r 190l 1{5. 2001 160 r 160 r 150 | According to the approved developnent contract for Kurvers pointAddition (phase r),.rten 21 state! that ,The developei igills thatapprovar and authorization for the prelininary plat and initiationof Phase I of this plat is witl the undlistanding that thedeveloper rril1 connect to TH 101 in phase II, as prop6sed in .the ip!:?":d prelininary ptat.,.by lowering TH 101 -to inlroive the sightalistance in the intersection rocation. This lowering of TH 101will be undertaken at the developerrs sote expensJ ]ri .orpii"rr""with the Minnesota Departnent of r-ransportation' requi."r.rri=J, tir"applicant has deviated fron his condilion by propLsing i aeaa-enacul-de-sac at the end of Kurvers point Road. - tiis nikes Kurvers COMPLIANCE WITH ORDTNANCE - RSF DISTRICT 15, 000 Streets Kurvers Point znd AdditionApril L7, 1991 Page 7 Point Road approxinately 1700 feet long without a secondary accesspoint. The applicant indicates that this new proposaL is in response to honeowners in Phase I lrho are concerned fron a trafficsafety standpoint that a throuqh street will pronote or increasethe traffic volunes. staff feels, however, that traffic volumeswill onty increase proportionately with the number of lots being created in the new plat and not any greater than any otherresidential subdivision in the city. Staff stifl supports the previously approved condition that the street (Kurvers Point Road)be connected to TH 101 as proposed in the initial Phase I preliminary plat including the developer lowering TII 101 to improvethe sight distance at the intersection. At the request of the developer, staff has also reviewed sone alternative street layouts.If the cu1-de-sac proposal is approved, the applicant wilL have to re-appIy for an access permit fron unDoT. The original accessperrnit was granted for the first phase which took into consideration the traffic volumes and turning novenents generated as it currently exists today. The proposed cul-de-sac option will generate additional turning novement at the intersection which nay require additional traffic control devices such as left turn lanes on TH 101. If such traffic control devices are required, the applicant should be required to incorporate these inprovements into the devel,opnentrs construction pLans. MnDoT currently has no plans other than safety related inprovenentsto upgrade TH 101 in the future which suggests the highway nay be turned back to the county or city to contend with. According tothe Eastern carver county Transportation Study, TH 101. has the functional classification of a collector and is reconnended .to be constructed to 4 lanes which requires a rainirnun of 100 feet ofright-of-way. As dedicated vith Phase I, Phase II also proposes an additionaL lT feet of right-of-$ray along TH 101. This r,/ould bringthe total to 50 feet fron the centerline, which would cornply withthe parcel r s dedication requirernents. The proposed pIat, as submitted, provides a 50 foot right-of-wayconsistent with the first phase of Kurvers Point. This, however,is 10 feet less than the ner,, subdivision ordinance requires. StafffeeLs confortable in this situation to grant a variance fron the ordinance due to the anticipated 1o!, trat?ic volunes and to providecontinuity along Kurvers Point Road through the two phases of thesubdivision. The streets are proposed to be constructed in accordance lrith city urban standards with concrete curb and gutter.Street grades range fron 18 to 7t which is acceptable accordinq tocity standards. Depending on which street alignment alternative iselected, UnDOT will need to be contracted for an access permit togrant the second access to TH 101. It should be noted that lilnDOThas approved of this access location due to proposed safetyimprovernents (lowering of the hill) in connection with thisproposed intersection with an access onto TH 101. , Sight distance Kurvers Point 2nd AdditionApril 17, 1991 Page 8 and auxiliary turn lanes will need to be addressed in ac.cordancerrith MnDoT apecifications. cradinq The site consists of Dost1y rolling meadowland, approxinately 7Otmeadow and 30t woods. The rnaj ority of this site iJ proposed to begraded which wirL necessitate some tree reDovaL. en- eaith bern isproposed along the easterly edge of the plat adjacent to TH 101.The height of the benn varies fron 8 feet to 20 feet high with 2zLslopes towards the house pads and 3:1 slopes towards fg fOf. The2:1 slopes are considered very steep and are not recommended froma maintenance standpoint (diificult to now). The developer hasproposed the slope to provide additional backyard =pace-. Theprofile- for the proposed bern closely foJ.lows thd existing profile l]""S_ TH 101. No grading is- proposed. rrithin TH 101 rigfr€-of_way.?he - .developer's engineer shall verify that the pro-posed silegrading vrilL not reduce the anount of giound cover oier'the cityrs12 inch watermain adjacent TH 101. on I,ots 13 and 14, Block 1, the grading plan proposed draining thebackyards very close to the proposed trouie paas. rt is recommendedthat. a drainage swale be constructed along the far northerlyportion of these lots and the final plat- reftect a aiainaq!easenent over the area to ensure the drainage swate witl beprotected. An erosion control protective barrier is proposed along thewesterly perimeter of Kurvers point Road. - flie plans do notindicate the type of erosion contror fence to be instlalred. staffrecommends the cityts Tlpe rrr erosion control fence due to theclose proxinity of Lotus Lake. staff also reconmends that anothererosion control barrier (silt fence - fype f) be installedinnediately after the initial site grading ai6n9 the easterly sideof Kurvers Point Road, south of Balswood- Circl-e, to preven€ soilwashing into streets and stono serrer system. tn addition, it isrecomrended that a 75 foot long gravel construction driveway accessbe constructed at the end of existing Kurvers point Road to helpreduce mud and debris fron being tacked out onto Kurvers poinl Road. Dra inaoe The.pl.ans proposed conveying the surface rrater drainage through aseries of storn seuers and catch basins which corinect to anexisting storm seqrer provided with thE first phase of development.This existing storn seirer outrets into a seriel of retention ionas.These retention ponds have been previousry designed and constiuctedin conjunction with the first phase to adLquat6ly handre the stormrun-off to the pre-developed rate for loo year, ze hour storm. The Municipal water service i.s available to the site from Kurvers Point Road (Phase I) and fron the cityrs existing 12 inch watennainlocated adjacent to TH 101. The plans propose extending a 6 inchD.I.P. watennain fron Kurvers Point Road (Phase I) through the site and connecting to the cityrs 12 inch D.I.P. watermain in TH 101.It is recommended that the connection to TH 101 be a rrwet tap" toavoid interruption of rrater service. As erith the sanitary sewer alignrnent, the developer's engineer should design the watermain to be instalLed within the roadway surface and not under the curb andgutter so as to hefp fron an accessibility standpoint and to reducethe expense of watermain repairs in the future. Park Land Dedication Kurvers Point 2nd AdditionApril l-7, 1991 Page 9 pLacenent of manholes and citch basins should be positioned so thatthe systen is located underneath the roadbed. An additional stonn sewer lead should be extended fron the existing storm sewer in Kurvers Point Road (Phase I) to Lot 14, Block 1, to intercept the backyard drainage prior to reaching the street. Sanitarv Sewer Municipal sanitary serrer service is available to the site fron thefirst phase (Kurvers Point Road). An I inch P.v.c. sanitary seweris proposed to be extended froro the first phase through the site. The applicantrs engineer should incorporate additional manholes to maintain the position of the sewer systen in the center of thestreets. As in the first phase, sone of the parcels (Lots l,-5, Block 1) will have sanitary sewer access available to them in thefront and back portions of their lots. The property currently has an existing farn house, barn, and cabin, which are not connected tothe existing sanitary sewer systen. These structures areanticipated to be denolished or uoved off the site prior toinstallation of utilities. wate rma in The Park and Recreation Commission reviewed Kurvers Point Additionin its entirety (first and second additions) on June 25, LgB7. Atthat tine, the Park and Recreation Conrmission recotnmended to acceptpark dedication fees in lieu of parkland, to request a 20 foottrail easenent along the west side of TH 101 and the constructionof an 8 foot bituninous off-street sidewalk within the streetright-of-way of Kurvers Point Road Ln lieu of traiL dedicationfees. The city Council reviewed the subdivision and adopted thePark and Recreation Cornnissionrs actj.on except for the reguest for20 feet of additional right-of-uay along TH 101. This exception was made as it Lras deduced that the initial 17 feet of right-oi-waybeing dedicated al.ong TH 101 for future road and ditch inprovements r^tou1d acconmodate a trail as we1I. The resulting developnent contract was anended as it related to trails and trail fees. Thevalidity of constructing an 8 foot bituninous trail in the KurversPoint Road right-of-rray was contested resul.ting in an addendun (see memo froD Todd Hoffnan) . As it now -stands, prior to the issuance of building permits forresidential construction, _ the developer shall pay toitie city, tfrepark and trail fees then in force. Kurvers Point 2nd AdditionApril r.7, 1991 Page 10 RECO},IMENDATION Staff recomnends themotion: The Planning connission reconmends deniar of prelininary plat #87-14 for Kurvers point 2nd Addition as shorrn on the ptans dat-a lrlarch18, L99l-, for the following reason: 1. The lroposed plat deviates from the approved prelirninary platand final plat for_the fir.lt phase bliieplaciirg tfr- se-6naarystreet access to TH 1o1 with a cul-de-sic. Should.the Planning Connission reconmend approval, the followingconditions should be part of the approval: L. The applicant shalt request the City Council to remove thecondition requi-ring the second acces! as part or Ltre secondphase and necessary iroprovernents to tx 101 fron thedeveloprnent contract recorded against the property. Lots 4 and 5, Block 1 shall not be pernitted toaccesses to Lotus Lake. The existing accessesrnaitained as access to Lotus Lake. AII private driveway access points onto TH 101 shalt beabandoned and the disturbed areas sha1l be restored within TH101 right-of-rray. rdditional nanholes, catch basins and pipe bends shaLl beincorporated, where appropriate, to install the sanitarysewer, storm selrer and watermain within the roadway area andnot under the curb and gutter. A11 utilities and road!,rays sha1l. be constructed in accordancewith the current edition of the cityrs standard specificationsand detail plates. The erosj.on control barrier line west of proposed NurversPoint Road shall be the cityrs Tlpe III erosi6n dontrol fence. Planning Conroission adopt the following cLear newrnust be 2 3 4 5 6 Kurvers Point 2nd AdditionApril L7, 1991 Page l- l- l-0. 1l- . t2. l-3. L4. 15. 16. An additional silt fence barrier shaII be installed on the east side of Kurvers Point Road lying south of Basswood circle irnmediateJ.y after site grading to prevent soil fron washinginto the new streets and storm sewer systeu. A 75 foot long grayel construction driveway access shalL be constructed at the end of, the pavement on Kurvers Point Roadto help reduce mud and debris fron being racked out onto Kurvers Point Road. AIl disturbed areas sha11 be innediately seeded and Eulched to help reduce erosion. Wood fiber blanket or erosion control blanket shall be used on all slopes greater than 3:1. The applicant shaIl apply for and obtain perrnits fron the watershed District, DNR and other appropriate regulatory agencies and couply with their conditions of approval. The watermain connection at the south end of Kurvers Point Road to the existing 12 inch watermain adjacent to TH 101 shaIl be nrade by a irwet tapl to avoid interruption of urater service. The applicant shaLl enter into a development contract andprovide the city with the financial security to guarantee proper installation of these irnprovenents. The applicant shall extend a storm sewer lead from theexisting storn sewer in Kurvers Point Road (Phase I) to intercept the backyard drainage fron Lots 13 and 14, Block 1. A revised final grading and erosion control plan shall be included and approved as part of the construction plans andspecifications for this proj ect. The developerrs engineer sha1l verify that the proposed sitegrading !ri11 not reduce the anount of ground cover over thecityrs 12 inch waternain adJacent to TH 101. I 9 The existing structures require a dernolition rernoval and any lrells and septic systens nust abandoned. permit forbe properly FuIl park and trail fees shal1 be paid at tine of buildingpermit application. 7- t7. Kurvers Point 2nd AdditionApril 17, 1991 Page 12 ATTACHMENTS L. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. o t0. 1t- . L2. city Council minutes dated JuIy 20, Lgg]-.Developnent contract. coSty of approved prelininary plat.ll81 1987 access options.Exhibit A.Exhibit B.Exhibit C.Exhibit D. Memo from Dave Henpel dated April 11, 1991.Memo fron Steve Kirchman dated Irlarch 25, 1991.Meno from Mark Littfin dated April 3, 1991. Memo fron Todd Hoffnan dated April 2, 1991. I r.02 City Counci I lEeting - July 2g; tgAT 1. Mherence to all corditions as required by Article 5, Section 9(U). 2- The beachlot *ar| ! maintained by a hcneowners associaticn or by anorganization consisting of the subdivision residents. 3. Direct Staff to investigate a slor,, - rD r,rake area. All \roted in favor ard llption carried. Harg-i-e Fiarj alahti: Irm just worderirg if [Erhaps we might lok at thebeachlot will be going close to the eretlands there, t}at we might not be therealso with boats goirg in ard our of the dek... lrayor Hamilton: l{e can c€rtainly request ttrat the DtilR do that. Barbara Daq/: That cruld be includeil under the wetlard alteratim perm it request'. Councitman Geving: Desn.t it belong here rather than rEtlard alteration? !,tayor lbmilton: Yes, I think it beJ.orgs in tlre cord itional use perrnit. PREL]MIMRY PTAT 1O SI'BDIWDE 36.3 ACRES INIO 42 SINGLE EAI'IIL Y TSIS. +./\q 5 J) Barbara Dacy: The Plannirg Commission recommerded appro/af ard added fiveadditional conditions. ltumber 15 was that compliance with the action taken bythe Palk ard Recreation Commission, that the plannirg Commission while it erdorses a trail along IH I01, the applicantrs request for no trail or trailsmaller than 8 feet is a reasonable request for a street trail,. !,lumber 16they require irdividual grading ard erosioo clntrol and tree removal plans forthose riparian 1ots. ltumber 17, that Staff be permittd to meet wit} the.applicant ard MnDot to resolve the issue of some of the access onto Til lOIprior to city Council consideration. If there is a major revision-on the platit shall come back to the planning Commission for revilw. ldmber lg that atimber management plan be corriucted by a DNR forester. Ihe Council is notaware of this but staff has been working rrith ENR on the Shadowmeresubdivision to corduct such a plan ard we think this would be another erementfor the p1an. Finally, that tlle glty g,g inger would review prior to Citycouncil consideration the possibility of linkirg tbe northerJ.y intersection ofm 10I to Cheyenne Trail. -Finally, the planning Commission aaded the armycorps of Eng ineers included with the cordition that the appl icant receive alt9f it's permits. r wourd like to forrow up on some of t}6-se coniitio;;. rhefirst issue r.egardirg the park arri Recreation Commissioo actlon, -1f, -iaiX anaRecreation director advised that as far as tle trail r.rithin the. fOrireis poi.rt Roa-d right-of-way that could be c-onstructed within tlE right-of-way "rn tn"t u6 foot sider{,a1k woutd meet the intent of the recommendatiln. n;a'h";a"commission did require ttre addition of a 2a foot trail easement aronq ffi-rgr's9 they couJ.d begin implementing a trail arong tha r road. rior io- itris timethe overall trair pran vras not put together anl other srbdivisions .io* rx101 do not have provision for a tsrail easement. The issue concern from -tlre a[plicant's stardpoint is whether or nol 2g feet is too restrictive beyord the t *r F B. 5A r03 -l- City Courci I tteeting - July 20, 1987 17 feet that ttrey are propo-sing - to ded icate on the plat as you see tonight.This issue courd be resotv-ed ,i-tr, "onG.llrrg linoot anl determining what theirtlpical improved four rane- roag section isi uruan section and det6rrniningwhether or not the rioht-of-way _that tlE aprLants are providing *itt,- ti.additionar 17 feet "o-uta o.r*-oaate ttre oTr---slreet trair. In any case, ttreintent of the park ard Rec @rnnrissiqr acti;;; to make srre that an off_street trail could be provid,$ bur that part oi rlre city i;-i.ok; ;; ;o,implemenratiorL the secord issue.to f o:. iow-.p- cn is re6u.orrg-G pJ""iur"connection. of. the proposed_ roads into eeyennl trail, tfre "trli to-O.nortlL rhis is Kurvers E\rint noad here afo ct "yo,r= Trair is tocatea iigrrtht?: It is physically possible to .iX" ttri= ""nnection. lb*;;;;; th;appl icant has here tonight a plan that is strowirg that that connectim wilrcreate a ser ies of doubre frontage lots. a10n9 rn 1o1. rt really iii*t" ti,.entirf lot rayout pattern of the-subdivision.'tni" co*inJ-in[!."*ii* tr,*h,ould also provide us ingress,/egress for "pp.o*i..t.iy ;If ;;;;;i?i.oniafcrove subdivision rots rocated to the norti-of that. tti" ."rg itiU wL aaaedby the commission toward tle end or tire aisc,.rssion on ttris ,.it"i.-'rt i" "*to. be considered by the oouncil that these p"olr. in tt coioni"i-cr*.subdivision wourd have to be notified "roof o-i= ctrange in the street pran.However, right rrcw tlE alpl icant does $rant to aaaress Gi"' i-"=L--i"-tr,ii.comments. third is ttp issue about tlre southerry ..."s" or-x,riu*" p"intRoad' r{ r can irdulge t}p -councir to be patien[, there u.. " nu*Li-oialternatives but r hrourd r1k t9 briefly g; thiougtr ttrose ana *i"itr*i":.v rhave to add a Tth as a re$rr.t or a meetir{-tn"t t-x prace out at t}," sosinprolErty with a member of the r,rnDot staff. this was -rate on rriary it[..n*nafter the reports had been distributed. when wL were first pi"pii'g-tLreport prior to the planning Commission .e9!inS, He Lrere.,otitlla Uy"f.r"ootthat this proposed aceess does not have sufficient anount of signJiisiancefrom the crest of tne hill so_ a .nu.be: of oElon= were identified. oxe was tomove this access to tlE top of tlE hi1l. r}iat would ..*fi in "pprJiateLy!9 v??.grades going into tlre subdivision ard when Tfl r0r is i.pi'oui,--.o..than likelv thar hi[ wi[ be frarened aru vou "iI g"t-u ,l*iiiil-ii"pritvbetrdeen tle stleet elevation ard building $J etevations in tlris area. secondoption was regradirg rl'r 1or to r"*ou" tt6 li""[ or the hirr. That optim isvery expensive ard also, involves the cooperation.r *p"rrG o#i"iip, on tr,.other side of the road in Eaen prairie. 'rt= rhil-d;i;;ll-iJiJ'iI uvcreating a. right-in zright-out situation ua that sou€lrerly ;*"; p"j"tHordever, this vras tle item tE! ,- presented to the nfatring -c.di;il. since tt.at time what'|s been addressei of rare is that t},. iiEut-iiil iilr,.acceleration larE $rould conflict with tte e:<isting tocation 5f ti," sosindriveway. r'rnDot was stilr concerned auour trrai 6""rs" "i tr,. iighr;,;i .rdsight d istance frcrn t}e crest of the hill. Fourth optian ,"" to-ii.utJ-it ."right-in only. While this- may be acceptaUfe in tqnDdt's "yo, tt" CitV .,..a"to seriously evaluate whetlrer or not a restrict€d acr€ss ir,o,iia L uiiorarrith no nedian in ttre exi_sting roadlray. ff,ttit".,"t.fy right_in ."r* ;"*:d !y ttre general grbtic. rtrey co-rita cause sqne [rafiic acciaeirts. ttefifth alternative wourd be rp acrels at all ard culae-sacins-io*-iJilintRoad. That erould result in a Z,ggg foot lorE culde_src ""*irq lZ foE. 't,"n.we ger ro opEion nurnber 6 wtrictr wour-.!6 io,o.[ti.g-ril'tti".-"v,tT ""=originalrv shown as a street intersection w6uH be-dedi";a"d ;;ighi;;_r.y.lb.wever, this jog that you. =. here sourd be provided .= " -.a""v'""".lnLt ."a "temporary situation'. until lTt Io1 gets appiored because i;i;;";ilIr" t 5I L04 City Council l4eeting - JuLy 2@, 1987 Mark Koegler 3 First of all I think the information Barb has provided ;ilong with the Minutes that you've got in your packet which are very ex tensive do a good job summarizing the project as a whole ard Irm not going to drag you through that again given the hour. He would like to emphasize the troublepoints, the first one being that the Kurvers ard the Conklins are developing this property ard chose to do so under their own control for the very specific Flrpose of baving more dontrol over what the final plat is going to look like. They chose to do the development rather than sell it so{neorE who rrrould hardleit in that manner. the plan that we bring before you tonight and I guess lrmstartirE to speak to the plat first of all. Irll address scrne of the other comments in a moment but the plan that we bring before you tonight does not contain any variances. It contains lot sizes twice tlre Cityrs normal requirement. We tlink it's a very high $ality develotrment. A unique development for this community that is goirE !o reflect the vegetation that is on the site, the sloPes that are on the site, tlre wetlands arri of ceurse Ltus Iake. A couple of commenLs then I think are appropriate qr some of tle tlansportation issues that we've raised here in the last few minutes ard then a few remarks regardirg the recommerdations of the Planning Commission ard I F 52 t_ likely the crest of ttre hill will be flatened arll the sight distanc€ issue resolved. However, as we all know, whan ard if lTI 101 is going to be atproved could be a matter of 5, Lg, 15 years down the road. this option was recently proposed last week. It does pose some corcerns regardirg itrs locationdirectly adj acent to the existing location of the Sosin driveway. t{nDot has not resporrled in writirg to their position as to this entire situation. Al though tbe existing driveway only serving one house located ttris close to a street intersection, there may be minimal impacts as far as traffic confl icts with a car coming out here ard traffic here. trere is still a lot of clnc€rn regardirg the proximity of these two so direstly close to orE another ard especially in view of itrs relation to the crest of tne hill. this location does resolve the sight d istance corcerns. Hovrever, if you go out there on- site you will rpte that it is.a bad situation. 1\ro srb-options, this option that was posed in tlp staff rE)ort was either the Sosinrs combire their access into the street which l.lrs. Sosin is bere tonight ard will speak that tley are not in favor of that option or number 2 that their driveway be shifted approximately 150 feet to ttte south or toh,ards their southerly lot line. Ort at tlE site on the Sosin prolErty wit}l a representative of tlnDot, the final oplion was created and that was to leave ttris intersection at this point ard create a right-in /right-out $ri$l relocating Llrs. Sosin's driveway doen to tlE south. lterefore, we resolve t}re sight distance issue. We resolve tiis issue but we also create another situation where the Sosin prolErty bas a safer acEess. lbvJever again, the City reeds to consider whether or rDt they should be allowirg a restricted access at this poinL Staff's recommerdation is as Iong as there is an option out there to provide for a full intersection, our recommerdation would be to recommerd that to the @uncil. However, in this case urder I guess you would r.rant to caII it option 6, we would recommerd ttrat this be the recommended alignment ard subj ect to looking at relocating tte sosin driveway 150 feet to the south. MnDot will respord in writing within tlE next tero week period. TfEy wanted to go back ard evaluate aII these opEions ard so on but in the meantime the City needs to clnsider whether or not a right-in or right-in only is even an option with tlE subdivision I think that $,as it. 105 city counci 1 leting - JnLy 2g, t987 t-:*f,f .rri we would apSrreciate some Council consideration on. I,Il take themrn ErE same sequenoe that Barb cqrered tl=n startirE with cteyenne Trail. Asshe indicated in her remarks, we looked at a serieJof td;iy;;;-;-different deverognent scternes for the prop"rq Ltore the final. what rre hadoriginally looked at rras .rn actcess oti of Oe-lrenne Trail tlnt would come iny.iff ano.tfer clnnectirE access to th south aiorrg ru rs]- what tlrat did ardlnrs r_earry can be adapted being discussed because th€ street connection courdbe made down in here maybe in rieu of this or.. tt= problem or" tJ-ii-ti,utbasicatry forced a recoifiguration ot ttre e.iii" ...ii.g.i or e," p"r".r "nathe biggest probrern rde hd was that frqr a aeverognent p.r"p."ii""'r"!-ti*large row of doubre frontage rots tlEt we enaea rfo with-. <iri-pr,iio*pr,y ,r"",* ?l UE.pru" before ]Du, rras to surEh the cul_dl_sacs ao* to -rn iii."o ,.could radiate lots off of tlat thereby diministring tf,e "mooni ; ;ili;frontage rots. we think that's a mor6 sellabre product as werl as beirg moreattractive_to rhe citv. rhis particular pran d&JG;;iu.*irt rluJss orallowing 47 total lots. you r&al1 trrat -we are proposirg nz so aciu'atiy it's:^::::"-i:.::"r': 9_":.lgsr:rt. scheme but simply ,;" j,rde; "! f,i.i *f''oeslrable trqn a lot stardpoint as werl as frcm ttn pori: ing tr,ut i. have anopp_ortunity. to accompristt dl the other pran versus tr,i" t=-r. in teir* ot ti,ermpact on the rdetrard area ard tlE beactrlot itserf. so ror ttrose i.".o* tr,.tparticular alternative was dismissed ard we wourd certainry i.s,.r.t"-["i th.street arrarEement that was laid out in tre prat be tie onE trr.'t -r" ti.'subject of t}e discr:ssions this evening. with regard to tr,. riiu.-oiIrr"southerly access onto ItI l0l, that,s bden an issu6 tlrat obviousfy -h". b...lkicked arourd by a lot of parties and we thini arr of trroe pa-r-t'i"'J-rruG .very legitimate concerns ard issues that have been rais.d. i. -it -*,.Jiop.tv owrer, be it MnDot, be it the City or be it tlre people wtto are actuallidevelopirg L-re_ pro[Erty. . I{e have ionsidered prouuuiy ,;.; rh;-u=-;;.,alt€rnatives tiat were risted. ltroot originaily carie back ard giu" *- ior.ard that srpwballed to seven. At the hasis of tle probrem is tE'tiii.- a, ora meeting that occurred rate this afternoon, literairy oriy; ;,pi;-# nor."before _ the.meeting, the Kurvers decided t.tp best way to aeat wittr- trresituation is to attack tlre probrem. As a resurt or-uat ,rg ln tnlo1.*..with r'tnDotrs originar rec-ommend-ations, wer re proposing *Tp"iJ"iii.L arof ttris project that rr,e'ilr c,t down the hirl irn tH rgi as a fort oi thi;develoExnent ard they wilr absorb the costs for doing that. fi"- tr,inr, -tilt notonry wi-rr resorve making a much better arrl safer inlerseclio'po-iil'#-otviouslvvou've got the prblic arorE-m 101 as werl * ;thi"[;;;x'ii witirMnDot tltat is t}le alternaril_1r_:,"9:rg, like_to Frrsue. we ttrink tf,.t wiff 9otle furthest towards resolving all of the safeqi issues wtrlch'-iil ulJ.J -.rg *"have some cpncerns even about -t.tre right-in /rigtit_out. We h,ould like to see afulr intersection ard that lrourd arlow that. i coupte of conments ,a t rr"then on some of ttte recorunendation aspbcts of tlre ltan. rn reviewing -*r" cityErg ineerrs report, in essense had rrc mlj or probremJ with thaL re siqqest€dmoving of the watermains. . we stard q,iirina toto-tul.- ar6,rg;-dE'e;id.-s4s are short ard we might argrre that it's -not needed an =c.o" o? tlsn it wi 11improve ttre q,ality ot tle syslem tt,"t a*"-g" ,ritr, *= runa. rhere wascorcern on tle fire ac'cess to the ti{o 10ts that are presently serve theKurvers. we r.rould like to look at in conjurction wi-th the a?ea, addinq anadditional hydrant or rerocatirg a hydran[. in this rocaticn to-ir*ia'ri."service to those two 10ts. _we have a hydrant tir.t .iii t=i. iiiti'rr, *wirlow view cove ard if ned be would eit"rt ttrat back to ".,ne ioint *itirin il_ 53 106 Mr. conklinrs prolErty to look at providing the adequate service ttrat tlratwould require so with your g=rmission we wourd like to work wittr the Eog ineerbetween rpw ard tlre finat to insure that those items are @vered. rn 6sence,we're corcurrirg with his recommerdatiors. ItE park ard Recreation commission's reconunerdations r guess a::e another item we wourd like to touctlupon. Barb referenced ard I think tlE Minutes refererced, first of aII Iguess I should state tllat aII pa.rties of ttre developleot are firm bel ieversthat this CiQr should continrE wit} tle trail plan ard tle trail along IH 1gIshould be a part of the City's long range plan. Itle point shere I guess $edifferentiate a little bit is on the lard area requir€d to do that. What $re have shown so far as tIre dedication of an additional t7 feet of right-of-way alorg there, tlE Park Commission came back ard asked for an a&itional 2g feetof easement. We realize tlEt's easement but thatrs still 37 feet of protrErty vrhidt is a fairly healthy chunk that is not useable for certain aspects... kesumably hrhen the rest of the right-of-way is acquired on the otlrer side of IH I0I, that will result in 100 foot wide right-of-way whiclr in our estimationis adequate to clver any improvement to the road ttrey do ard the trail. Ihe problem we have in sayirg back to I'lnDot, rrill this neet you! stardards is thatif you go talk to !,lnDot today they will say werre not going to improve Ttt IgI so terre askirg an agerrl' wtn says ttEyrre not goirg to be a party to improving it to clrunent on it which is kird of awkvrard position. As we allrealize, IH 10I has been an awkward positio for a long time. Unfortunatelywill continue to be so. So for t}tat reason ere would request that the easement not be included in your recommerdation. We would like to use that lard,particularly on $me of these northern lots as part of ttre design. Ihese lots are fairly well shielded naturally. Werve got scrne IoLs cr the northern entrance that we would like to do as much berming as reasonably figured. Ihe secord i tem along the lire of tle Palk Comrnission's discussicr was cn tletrails. It's been recommerded thror:gh Kurvers point Road and not it's been recommerded to be essentially a 6 foot walkway tl4le of siderralk. Thissubdivision obviously cutains g.rbl ic streets. therefore, there are prbl ic access to iL However, the nature of tle develognent ard the nautre of any develoFnent that has a beachlot involved is basically private. Ihat beachlot serves only the 42 homes that are within this. Orr concern wittr emphasizing a publ ic rralkway tlrror:gh there is from a prdctical stardpoint in tlre future of the neighborhood associatidl havirg to police itself ard to limit theactivities only to the residents that are within this develognenL We ale rpttrying to overburden that beachlot. i{e are not trying to overburdsr t}Et lakeard as a result of that we would like dviously to keep the develognent p-rbl icbut not overemphasize if you will FlbI ic access to this. Ttre other iss:e we see is simply the Low in+-ensity develolment. Ihe street EEttern we ttrink very adequately wiII serve tle walkway as it does in f.otus take Estates na(t doorard several other developments tlroughout this area. Itrs a point to rintitem. They're not surrounded by major transportation Vte ar6 not, nolfuffynot at reast, taking another devero;xnent ard dumping their traffic into ttriJard as a result, itrs a project thatrs really f@used dt the 42 lots ardtherefore we would reguest that that no be a trErt of }rour cusideration. Iheonly other point on park ard Recreation is as staff report irdicated there wasa need for L V2 acres of parklani which was met by the proposed beachlot.werre not goirE to stard here tonight ard telI you that thaC beachlot meetsall the recreational needs for those 42 residents. Itat simply is notrealistic. It does however take sqne share of t}e burden oft bf tte city,s t-- t_ 54 t city council !&eting - Jnly 20, Lg87 707 City Council lfeeting - JuIy 20, 1987 r park facilities. rtre beach here for instance will service swinmers as doesIake Ann so there is scrne balance there of trarric tnal is ,;;;i; io rox.ry.Put is staying here. Fbr that we would simply ask tfraf Vor'c"niij.rwhether or not there is.sorne credits ,ppropriiL from tlE o\rerarr park charge.r donrt know wlrat that is. Frflps r.ii rr'""-pu"t precedent. t.!"l&e itrs 25t?:-lhF o it_may be but we thinti "*. "r"aii-*ay go alorry in there. FinalI tem, r guess I need to. sav-e probably for the ,rexi i-t". --tir" "g*,a.. rg"have some corunents on the delage i"'"* -"" ,.ri' but r think trroJ -ii" - rearryreceptive to the next portion. .-Just to iir;rly summari ze, ,e're aiier-u ,ryuni$-E develotment here ard- we have a pran tirat refl.ects that. we think wehave--a pran t]ra! o,ts sgurd s-ite- pr"r,iG. -ili" . plan which t,.,e conkrins ard-tjE.l(u''els, beirE creators- of .the neighfirnoa ir r.r ,iii,--.i.-"ili"it *itr,.Yle t],::'.i: it meets or exceeds.ity st tiias.--ie're excited about it and wourdlike to get in the grourd this rair arg- w-r*r ttrat wouu c€rtainr.y request yourapproval . e€orgette sosin: this is tlre first that l,ve heard of this plan. I docornpliment the deveropers that.they i." t xirg-L *e r.spo'iiuiiitv Ji.really major problem for everl,bodf wfro fives "on m 1g1. we are tdoniyneishbors that are actualrv.ad]acerrt tr tr,l" &"i;d;L"Lli=.#I#'ir .r=road is cut down certainly is iinimatizJ. r m stiu mt sure about r{hen thatis goirg to happen aru whictr or= oi -ti,-.* opt-ions trrat you're choosing soperhaps you could respord to that. Mayor Hamilton: Mark, perhaps. 1rcu could just jot tlrese tlrings down. If ]rouhave other concerns r,"'rl go- thLiougt ti-t,-iJ iiro, i= can address all of t]rem. c€orgette sosin: r need to kpw that for the @ncern tltat r{e have as beingtheir southerly neighbor. rtre other "ora=- ur.t we have, of course -d maiorone was the traffic problem. w9 3,so, by the lray compfimentJ as [u*iaa inyour notes, we think itrs a good devel0pnent ard- we'r6 "*y p1*".i ritr, tr*way. that it has been planned. tbwever, being the southerfy Ligtlor""rJseeing_ the way that this is platted thiough 5* t..o, we are a littleuncomfortable with krrcwing exactry wbat- ihese g=opl.'una tt.i.-p."Jriiigt twant to do witi erhat is their own-visu.: barri& irA prival, t ' thE- -- deveropment. we had requested flom Iorvers cJ uoy " strip of rard as soarr as5 feet that we could at ieast- trlr" p"it.p.-,A to ti".. * i. -uiif-pG"f'evergreens or prant some kind of a visuar barrier. we have *t Li-*y *r.,frqn them on that question we wourd rike to have scme kird of barrier thatwirl insure that these wi be plotected. rhat tlrese ,iri ,="".E-ili ao*ngF *herr they're qt the property lire like that, as you kmw, th.* ;; L .dispute. so those are two- oonc6rns really. witf, ttie ari".rry it LiJt'sourds tike if you can expl.ain a little further has some a i rreieni-iioi -arg the visual barrier. )lark Koegler: rf r unierstood, there.are rearry tlro parts to the drivewayquestion rhere was timirg ard ttren rhere r"" iug".ini- r.t; iiii,Z!! ti=timing issue first. orr intention is to cone in and.deverope. uri" prop"ttvin two phases ard we think. we tnve a very lood jemarxaticn point to do tlEt.Itnt is_specifically the -first ghase wili inclr:de everlzthini **"U"ffV *this side of this lire ard. sould pi.k w vrhatrs now ca,ed Lot,s view tarE soin essence werre going to have a irne tirai ,oora go u.,ia-;tarrd "iiia-' il_ L 55 .iud City Courci 1 !&eting - Jul-y 20, L9O7 delineate Phase I of the north ard ptnse II of the south. Any improvement oftlE street beyord this initial loop which would serve as an initial culde-sac, I think a very natural turnarourd, would be part of phase II so tllat allof the improvenents to IH 101 required for this would be worked out ard wouLd be tErt of Phase II ard obviousty phase II can not procd until you sar,, thathappen The alignment we're taking about .is the aligrnment that is shown on t}re original plat. 'Ihe sttaded area that's dohn to the south, ignore ttnt ifyou will. That was ore of the alternatives that rras addressed. we don'tthink ttrat's t}te best way to hardle it so ere would propose to keep tlle alignment tle way it is shorrn on tte preliminary plat that is before lou tlrisevaning. It provides about 180 feet separation along tltat lot line along TfllSL WitI regards to screening, I am aware that the Sosin's approached t}e Kurvers about Frrchasing some protrErty. that a[proach was made after ttrepreliminary plat rras put together. Frqn what filrvers tell me tley are certainly amenable to looking at splitting off on t}le final plat a portion of that providirg ttprn obviously witi tle c-ost consideratiorrs ard so.forth can be work out and presumably they can be betrreen both EErties to consiiler that request. Tbe Planning Commission did discuss it ard I think agreed with usthat itrs not necessari ly the responsibility of tie developer to screen the driveway. we think realistically tle owners of tots I ard 9 are going to rrantto screen the dlivevray more tlEn perhaps the Sosinrs are going to want to screen the baclqrard but we still urderstanJ their concerns ard wiUirE to lookat that arld tlp [Erties can negotiate. lte plat can acccrnodate ttre sale. Councilman Johnson: I really think this subdivisidt is a real relief to rae. To clome in here ard werve got a develo[Er fixing highway problems is amazing.I would like to hear frcm the Park ard Rec Coord inator or our Chairman of the Conmission on this 2g f@t wide along IH 101. I personally believe tlrat thereis scrne way tlnt we probably can state it to llnDOI to save their face or whatever for them to give us an ansvre!. !'tatrbe not make it specific to this but within such ard sudr tlEE of road arrangernents, how much do we ned to putin a trail ard specifica).Iy give tlrem the dimensions of this. Not rnc€ssari Iy saying this is Tt{ I0I so thayrre answerirg a generaL guestion, not committirg anything to ltl 101. I would like, if they come back and say itrs dequate but 2g f*t seems aqrfully big beyord the 100 foot rride potential right-of-way inthe future. What's the Park ard Rec think? Lori Sietsema: At the time it was presented to the park ard Recreation Commission it wasn't pointed out to them tlat there was 17 feet of right-of- eray there. I feel if we can be reasonably assured that an off-street tlail can be built in there no matter what ha$)ens to that road, tlEt tiey will becfifortable with leavirg it as 17 feet. TtEy rrere very conc€rn€d tfrat fH 1Sfis a major priority to get a trail along tlere because of the traffic thereard if it can be accomodated within 17 feet, I have rp problem. If there is aprobldn with that, tlpn we need the additional easqrstt. llike Llmch: Werre also concern€d about berm ing because a lot of berm ing is .being done inside of those right-of-ways ard as s€en on east side of $t IOI alittle furthe! nortlr in an Eden Prairie development, there is a berm ardtherets 12 feet straight down into a ditch and then thereis IH I0l and there's absolutely no place to put a trail there unless you attempt to ride on top of the berm so we krew tlpre was going to be a berm ard we knew tlpre were i I t 56 109 City Counci 1 lEeting - July 2A, l.:9B7 t-Brobler-n_s goming W with Ifl 101. t{e,re not stuck on a number figure of 20feet, 17 feet, $rhatever it ha$rens to be. we just want to make sure that wecan get into ttEt. courci Iman Johnson: so voulre rrelenrt actualry saying, you had rrc knowledge ofthe 17 so !'ou i{ere goit$ ZO feet frcm tie ro* iight+f{ray? L Mike Lyrch: Fight. Itrs almost tlp same thins as the 17 so stirl t ithin thatright-of-way we wourd rike to see tint i-uerm is const:ucted so rde can stirrget a trail in. Courcilman Johnson: fle berm is rnt going witiin tie 17 feet? Uark Koegler: No, the grading plan requests all of tle bermir,g be totally onprivate proIErty. Counci Iman Johnson: Okay, so-I thinl we can probably modify nr.lnber 15 here.Rather than saying here to refrect the m ld ^Eair wiri e'coora-GiJ wittrrequirements of !'rrDot or sonething rike uris. - u"vn" it wirr be 18 feet orgcrnething. r donrt ',ant - to argre -orer I or 2 feeL Tte other thinq is rmfor tlp inrerior sidewatk, e r6ot siaewirr. -r-urlnr ;;; nn; 6"1t i'i o.dorp.is tut it al.org ttE east side of zu*"r". *G *;;;";:;Ti**now thatis goi,g to be here.. - I r*1 rdhy l.urre p:ttin! ti,ii tr*r.- urf-i tirinr.that, r donrt know if the g:bric sarety'uals saia -ytr,irry about that but lre,vegot a Kerber which r don't ttrink there wourd le any resi6ent" trr.i""Li.rry rourd E f:o1ting dr Kerber Brvd. so if they made i phore ca, in-ail-riaKurver. tbar for ernergency p,:rposes the firi trucxs rion;l ue-t Jiri'i*-[ *,",they should be fr9t' ing easg. .Hav:.r,g ,r.o tf,ui- t"rrlUfy cfose tog,ejt *, itmay not be a probrem but tl,utis ano-ther thing to rook $to. i r*'" -rr,* v".,de\relop your hcmestead you like to put )rou! il.. * it but Itn for theinterior sidewark uecaule -r see rny itr.it dtow many children ale out andpraying in our stleet. I{erve got -one o. t* -..i" parked out there ard it isvery hazardous. r rroutd ratlrer see ure siaewaiL -wrrere ure dpi" goti"g tt.baby lugglE down the street ard. everyoing !i; r dontt think it rdould bethat detractive. r would keep it on'ttre &st side of Is:rver point Road so itis away from tte beactrroL - o.rt of sight, oui oi mira *t ti= u.""t r-"f- rr.kids that are going to fird it from r6"n'nii.i. as werr as anrrthinq tlatrsgoirg -to-be the same problem rith most beachrots is prou.uiv tri-Ha'" -d,i,,g in and whether therers a sidewark or not a siaewalk i"n't !6ing to-"ioi-io*nt$.Iia" very muctr" Ihere,s another point on th" Ueu.t tot-".dit -rG' addition of tlp recreationar beachlot- to me does not ao anyuring-io, ,o! ro,prk credits at aIr. rtp cests of ttE rots an t tus view iire iJ-L.iL'circre ard tlp other lardrocked.rgts ar-e .99in! to reflect t},. .r"irJiritv tothose peopre's recreational beachrots wittiin [te p.i""u tieyre'eJrrg-;; -vard r don't think the deveroper is giving rp anyttring. r tionli irrini 6"r"should be any crdit at a1I given for giving an -amenity that h,;;;ins tmake a profit on. r do want to conrin-ue to-complirneni'hil;; -#;& " gooadesign" A rot of. thorght has gore into this. ihat,s about iL r don['xnowwhat we can do with the trees. r think ttnt's an issue uetween ti--Ji*.=ard the Sosinr s.L 57 City Counci 1 l4eeting - July 201 1987 Counci lman Bolt,: I guess I would start by saying that I'n real impressed that you're willirg to cut tlE hill down just like Jay said. I tlrowht that was an absolutely ridiculous possibility ard driving ltl 191 everlday I'm del ighted that so.neday it's going to be flat. I guess I would like to ask Georgette. isit my urderstarding rrcw t}at ttEt proposal leaves the road situation and your driveway alright? c€orgette sosin: I think it's an improvement for the entire city. Ebr anyHy who dri.ves that ard c€rtainty for us. If that is dore at the tine that he says, tllen I think !{e rould be satisfied. In fact I'm thrilled. Counci lman Boyt: Now I think with tle trees, vrhat I think would be a very easy thing for you to do Mark is just I,tt that in as a covenant as those [Erticular lots or scmeway enter it so that ttey dcn:'t cut tJpse trees. I don't think tlEt's cpsts anybody anything. I agree with 1ou. I think itrs in everybody's interest to keeP tlen there but maybe one lirE like that would save a little money ard get the job done. ltre trails, I wish that Tim Ettlart was here sincra he is c€rtainly closely attach€d to the trail system. I think it's very important that the developrs urderstand tbat Park and Rec hardle the trail matters ard not the Planning Conurission. I think that tlE develo[Er came in to the Planning @nmission with some tlail matters that would have been bette! dealt with at Palk ard Rec ar6 by the Palk ard R€c PeoPIe. I think there is ttre 8 foot wide trail, it remains I guess to see what gets built but I'm interested in consisterry. I think rre ask fo! an I foot wide trail through saddlebrook, several of them and I think if thatrs the standard we're goirg to use in this city thatrs the stardard we're going to use. We're not going to go 5 foot in one Place, 8 in another ard so I would like to see us stay 8 feet. On IH IgI trail situation, we're goirg to have a trail qt TH I0I and I think if we ctnnge t}at to read sufficient room for a trail and the kird of trail I have in mird is, I forget rrhat class you call it, mayb t'talk knows, but it's the one wbere you have se[Erate I=destrian and bike ard whatever room rre need to build thaL I think you all can work that out but that's what I want to see there. fhe park versus the beachlot, Jay has already addressed ttraL I agree witlr him comPletely. Irve got sc[fle questions about tfte grading plan ard are those better kept for another part of this or should $re? l.layor llamilton: Right noer. Council.man Boyt: I tiink itrs important in this situation ard with tire slope ar this lard that we use irhat I think of as 1ytrE II silt containment situations which are haybales plus the plastic sbeeting. Wherever tlrere is apossibility that anything can run into the lake, I suggest we donrt fool arourd with just t}!e netting. lie go with both. Ihe other thing I wouLd liketo see us ard I havenrt looked at the grading plan to know if this is goirg to present even a remote chance but if it does present a remote chance I r{ant to s€e us use tllat floatirE sediment trap in the lake. Basically I rant everything on this prolErty to stay on this Pfoperty. Itve got a corcern about the potential spawning area possibility ard the fact that that hasort been resolved. I think clarkrs probably going to talk to the number of docks$ I wonrt address that. Those co\rer my conceurs. F t_ t 58 L10 111 City Counci I lreeting - Jnly 2g, LggT-f L courci lman. [rorn:. r guess I wasnrt going to comment on t]re nurnber of docks.rt meets tte ordinance ard obvio,sry iJ not part of this. r do have a concernthough just to expard on something tt"t J"y Siia urd that was tt. "LLtnames, I would like tbose to he reviewed Uy tte nrUf ic Safety Direcl; We,vegot two lotusr tere ard a cor4rle other totr;r nearby ard I th-ink ," ,_t tokeq> those fron being confusi. other than ti,.t, f think itrs " looa i"yoot. Counci lnan GevilS: I would li-ke to say this in respect to the lorvers, lttelard Frank, r. think you hav.g made scrne riajor corrcessio* J a.".:.op"i" in trri"plan ard_r ttrank vou for.g.rut.. r txink tle "ity -irr u,"nr. yJ-i;r;;; yo."to cqne because I think this is an excellent pian egain, f'r"p"ut ," -Lr. seen approx im ateLy 2a develognents in the rasi 3 or i weeks "oa' i on tlu yo,that I have not seen a net densier of I.5 units per acre anl ^rhere in months. ftafte. in year-s..so you have ao_nq .3 very, very go& iou "f ptiG-uii"-- !oSgthe_r...Ilike.tle plan. r }ike tG'rori 6e wiy it fiows. -tt=-"ofa._ sacs. I think t}ris rriU. be a very high ameoity ar& for unf.n" rio iryr onof these lots ard I rea'r ry mean tnlt- - r xrew $ur motner v6rry, ,"ri i#- rwould like to say that r tlrink somewhere in tiis plan you *oha-cari one orthose circres Mary circre.or Malyrs view or sco"tii'g iix. trrui. i *"irvliked her and she was a nic-e_ tadi- m r.g-a io somi of ttre q,restio;-ihatMrs. sosin had ard rrm very aelightecr trn[ trrat two issues ai,ii v*-*r]"a9*1Sgtt9 hopefully wilt be resolved. .Ite xr:rvers made a major bn..""iontonight in suggesting that they wourd bear the burden of cos[ ot.eioi"i.,g tr=road issue which of course is t-tre key issue of trris whoie tter.i"p*lii-""a .tcourse secondry if they can resorve tle seconi ore for your vis,','oi -**rr,. tIEt would go a long way ^to 1ak-inq a very halpy *istb"'."?i-ffip""niJ "n"buy these tr'ro rots g ard 9. r donlt ber i-eve -&t r'. very much in favor, infact 'm not in favor of giving any park credit at a1r fo'r tr,. a"".ior^Lt orthe beachl0t. r see no,aavantage -to tt= crty io. 1., to put in a beachrot fo!your residents in this derieloptn-ent and wourd rnt 9i aro.g' ,itt u"v ilJ-"r .beachrot crediL As far as tle tra is corcernea-, tr= "1*.""i ir.r,g-ti.highway has always been a dream of ours going ;av back, to tuiLj ;;ii" - throughout our crmmunity 3q r-9- telr fou Eh.t-r"'re 'goi.g -to-t"".-i-t uir 11olg.SS. entire lengtlr of 1, .10I when_wl put aU trre p-iece's t"g-"il*: idon't ber ieve that we need to have 37 feet.- rhat,s rid-icuror:s utii J.bel ieve ttnt we need enough trair area so we can ."x. a -nnEti* "riL m10r ard whethe! thatrs 17 feet or 20 feeE r donrt care. As far as the on_roadtrails within ttte pLat itseLf, we,ve_ gone to some different lt." .;;;.worked. out where $re've.gorE to a 6 f;t on-road tlpe of a trair. i "oora ur"that where ry iust striIE one side of ttre road anE-peopre -n *.rr. tiiioGn"ot $n nrat .rd -fiE it very comforrabre ro get frcm tLre to ti,..*- rEiii ofeet for any kind of a trair -within trre prat is more than sufficient so'rbel ieve t-hu! ". shourd provide for that. ltE palk .rrd Re" oo-n*iil;"Grecommendation should be carried out. We should have a trail ;;;;;;throughout your develognenL It isn,t.just for lrou! .own resiAenGr --[E peopfewho rike to hike, wark ard r'm sure Erat it wirf again b" ;;;th;".Jiti to,your plat. As fa! as the connectim ro cheyenrp ti tt= "."i, l--OJi,i"ii.t," udr,'rb. idea. r rea[y don't see any value iri connecting trris east;'tr*-'northem most route W to CheyenrE. I donrt see .ury reason to do ttEt. Whenwe. build a development like this, r kird of like to see it as a seirintalneaunit where you have an access ard egress ard people wtro rive -ttrere-L;'; identity. Ib mix tlese with the coioniar aaaiti'on r donrt u,i.r ,.ora-u. 59 1.12 City Counci 1 theting - JuIy 20, 1987 good- pranning strategy. r berieve that ttEre rras a comment from the parkpeople in terms of the I.5 acres of parklard. Again, I 9o Uu"i.-to -tt"i* credit. You have net that of course, I donrt *i, *y problem there. We didhave. historical-l y a lot of drainage probrems from palG of this lard flowing,r trink some of it frows rnostly io the north ara glts into the coroniaiAddition orE t ay or anothe!. Ei ther flor,rs back onto you! prolErty or your Proeprty frords onto the north ard into the Bloomberg aaaition so -r gueis r ammost concerned about item g. rhat a crrlvert sharl be provided urcei trreKurvers Point bad c.onnection to ffi 1ol. Do )'ou see any probrear tiere rGrk? l'talk Koegler: That's rp problenr with us. Courcilnan Geving: Because historically I know when rre worked lrith the BJ'oomberg addi tions itts alwa],s been a problenr for those drainagewalr. Thatconcludes mine, y,ou've done a good job fellas. Mayor lbmilton: I bave a few conments. Again, Iike everlbody else I thinkitrs a teck of a nice pran. I'm reaLry exci ted about it ind i can,t berieveyoutr-e goirg to cut the road down but I think thatrs fantastic if you'rereally going to do that. Itpre's no better rray to solve a problem -ard I hotEyou krrcw what yourre doing. Tte trails, it would be nice to have a trail o; T'H 101 but if the Kurvers are going to dedicate soDe proprty or give an easement for a trail along lTt 101, then I think we ought to go right on dorrnthe:tlget ard get it from the Sosin,s ard get it from tne Gtscnlagers arriget it fron south tptus Lake ard everybody else thatis on the streef which wehavenrt done ard probably never will do. Irm as much in favor of Eails as anybody else but a trail tllat starts in the middle of a street ard stopsbefore it gets to the erd of the street doesntt make a 1ot of sense to me. AnyorE having a trail through the subdivision, to say that they ne€d to zut ina 6 foot or 8 foot or 10 foot or whatever it miqht be, sidewalk through iheirsubdivisioo that starts at orE erd of tle s:bdiiision ard stops ai iE othererd, is only for the residents who are going to be there prirnarily because Icanrt bel ieve that werre going to encrourage people from, I trlean I wouldn't goover tlere ard drive into their subdivision ard stop and park in the streetard then walk back ard fortl on the street, get back in ny car ard go backhome. It doesnrt make a lot_of sense to ne anlnray. l.lat6e some people wou!.ddo that, I don,t kno$r. I think by doing that we,re doing something- that Jaytouched on. we would be encouraging [Eople to cfie into the suldivision anaperhaps use the outrot that they have intended for tle residents who livethere, that we're going to create some parking problems ard werre going tohave the residents back here sayirg we want Do parking signs ard w6 wait thesame t}rlE of probLems that we have in Geenwood Shores arrl we have in carverBeadl so r think rather than creatirg a probrem we,re going to have in thefuture, DaIe touched on it, we can- stripe a part of tlre stieet ard if peoplewisfr to wark their chirdren down the street or wark over Eo tle outret'tleycan use that portion of tle road to eralk on that's been striped for utatFlrpose. I also feel that the connectidt to Cfieyenne Trail is not a reasonabre consideration ard certainly detracts from tlre subdivision ratlrerthan addirE to iL Credit m t.}n park charges, I guess I could 9o eittter wayon that. rt does seem as tiough I think Mark has a good argumeni when he saysthe peopre rrho live here are in facE going to, when they use tre outlot tltat-,sbeing created, certainly in tlre sannmertime, they are going to take some 6s F t_ t 113 City Council !,teeting - Jo]ry 2g, LggT t-pressure off of take Ann or off of lake susan or any of our other palks so rthink we shoutd consider soine epe of a Snrk cred it-. certainry noi rgot uot201 ox 301, ehatever ttrat might-turn out to be. r tiink ttrose'are *tire-extent of ny cr*ments. Barbara you had sonethirg you were goirg to *y-i ,inuL ugo. TrEr:. hcy: y€s, I just wanted to follolr-rp on a coqrle of sugEestions.bS tl,. existirg tlees atong the sosin lot iire. Iits -coutd .s ;-pa.t of th"!ie:- management pran have trre nrn forester look at tiat area as Gir .s ti,"council - lmking at rnakirg it a requirenrent to maintain that existirp - - vegetation as a buffer subject to tle Dr\rR inspecting a";;i" ;;;-.if U,"tt-s ale heartly ard scrne of the good species are iraintained. Thaa "oura u.a furction of tlp forester. Mayor tlamilton: I rras going to comment on it anil I forgot. I guess I uouldLike to krrcw, before r wourd recornmerd anything m the lit r ire -between tretwo protErties r wourd rike to lcrow wher6 the iine is tirsi oi.a[: " -t[t o*Property the trees that a'e there currently are on. rhere are a Lot oi scruutrees in ttrere that courd easiry be u€eded out. t(eep the good ona"-"na-youcould plant inbetween evergreens if thatrs hrhat lou wantd to have in thereard if those trees are on ttre.sosin prolErty tru-n tney ought 6 ;ian[ f,"es to ?3^1*::,?..$^e_?_Io:J1 If it s soirs-to r" o., t}e rew s:rdiviiion prorErtyErEn peopre rrho blry tlEt or perhaps ever ttre deveropers hrourd Frt a f;w treesalong there to screerL r guels r lgreea with the clmment that screeninq ofsomeolels driveway is not somerhi.ng t],at r think i" i tigt prLili;-"rrd-certainly the people wbo are going to live there .r p.rti.$ go:.rrg'to -L .oor"conc€rned about screening t}eir own. bacfard from sorn-ebody-,s Sriv6ray,t.i..-they can see cals going by or traffic. Georgette sosin: r would like to say that rrerre not into doing lardscapingthat rooks like somethink frcrn a Frerch castle ret's say ard that ""r,ir t e.sr hagren to like. r feer stlongry about them as a visr.rir Gr.i.i aill wourarealry lesent sonebody comirg over ard messing arourd witlr wtrat r trrinr is arealry nic.e barrier as it is ard saying tlris is not a speciiiE; il-therefore it should be re-morred. fhe whole point of our-wanting t" Uw tfrutI'and is-to keep it somewhat wird because our tarri is kepL thaiwiy.--ie-aon,thave a lawn. we don't have a lardscaping thatrs not natural ard r lrant thatnatural border ard r tike those scrub tlees so r rdould not think ti,"i 1.r.sugEestion, as werl neant as it was ard r know it was, would be satisf'actoryto us. I donrt lmw if you follow. uayor Hamilton: r follow you. r guess that's fine. rf that,s your droiceard you could plant trees further back on y)ur s,n. counci rman @ving: rhis is a private natter that ttle sosints and the l(rrverscan work out themselves. t€ave it at that because theyrve already maae ivalid offer and let than uork it out. t Mayor tlamirton: r also tlrink itrs important to remenber what Mark suy" us fu.as tle phasing of this. whatever acG ard ccrnes about in t.te southe.i p..t ofthe. subdiv.ision_ is going to be in tlre second phase. rhey,re 9oin9 to do trenorthern phase first, northern hau of tle subdivisicr whictr iiulive tremtime to reduce the hill cn rH ro1 ad make the access useable. rLt,s notL 6t going to happen for a vrhile. I tlink we need to move alorry ard get them started on the northern half of this ard I know thatrs what Malk said that's their phasing p1an. Ihat makes a lot of sense. Councilman Johnson: I would like to correct that I lras for an off-street trail. I personalty believe adding 5 foot to the width of a city street wouLd be a lot more o<pensive to put 12 irctres of sulporting rek ard it Qlits my mind the actual term for that but aU ]Dur support ard two layers of asPhalt ard ever)rthing I bel ieve a 6 foot additim to tbe stEeet would be more expensive than an off-street 6 foot wide, 6 foot wide is a fairly wide sidewalk. My main reason for a sidewalk off the street is for tle IEopIe, the 42 houses that live tlrere ard the geople that ale there for tllem rpt to have to walk in tle street when tley are walkirlg down to tte beachlot o! lrhert they go with their baby stroller down t}le stleet. I have baby stroLlers all over my street all the time ard we aLso have sqne teenage girls at ttp erd of the street so the teenage bop are zooming l.{) the street with babies and strollers on the side of the street so I t{ould rathoJ see ttsn on t}e sidewalk. !,tayor fhmilton: Could lou address tttat lark? ualk Koegler: Eirst of aII I don't think it probably benefit-s any of us to continue arguing whether a sidelral.k fits in here or rpt. Iou have your opinion Councilman Johnson ard we have ours. Tte point I guess I would like to bring out is if you do decide to go with a 5 foot or 6 foot sidewalk ard nost sidewalks are 5 feet historically, we would slggest that you give us the freedom to either include it in the street or include detached. we have located several species of tlees q! that ProtErty that are relatively close to the right-of-!,ray tltat we want to retain. we may in some cases trant to go arourd the tree with tlE sidewalk, if you make us Exrt in a sidewalk. Ttte other thing i{e $rould ask for is if you do t}rat we would }iker therers a staff recoruneDdation that says the trail crealit should be waived in lieu of our trltting this in ard tlEt's fine. we again though get back to we would like an equitable arrarqement of tlE cost. O.l! estimate of the detached 6 foot wide trail. ard that's 6 not 5, is about 98,800.09. Eerk creilit lre r^tould rec€ive is slightly less than $4gg.gg so again we would get back to if ]rou require us to do that r,rould tlrat be reflected as an equitable credit arlong a1I Parties. Counci Iman Johnson: There was scrne otlpr point that we looked at credits. this is not the point to look at utrat negotiating credits. l,tayor tlamil ton : When do hre do that Don? Don Ashworth: Part of t}re develo;xnent clntract. You have in t}te one with Rick Murray before you tonight, that was a very good bid m that. $t1.50 a running foot with that 5 foot. If thatrs the case... Councilman @virg: t€trs just leave that issue. t- t_ Courci Iman Johnson: I think we can look at t}lat a little further. the one other thirg is Mark brought t,P the item $, the extension of tte hydrants ard he brought l4) some changes to it. I was wordering if Cary had any problems witlr his relocation of fire hydrants ard if Gary has a recommerdatidt for how t tL4 City Council I'leeting - JDl-y 20. L987 62 tr5 I City @urcil lteeting - JuLy 20, LggT re reword 5. Gary Warren: we met on a trxeliminary basis to review my interest and theirconcerns ard options ard as a lart oi the final prars afo speciriciiions r.rnsure $e can cqne up with sone neeting of ttp minds on this i""ua. - ----- Counci Inan Johnson: so ql number 5 aould rre say location of tbe fire trydrantsto be negotiated between t+ city oryineer ",a-'trre-I!;;iG; iJ.r,!i'Ir,l"1'u.specifics? rs that what. we're tiri,ir "b""t i; nurt". s ir tre specrii." ormoving it to these locations? Galy walren 3 rt basically i1e".E tlre realignment in generar of hrdlants andin particular the seryie -to ti- c*r.r in pioElty * ti= nortlwest crrner rthink is the biggest challenge on tf,uil councilman Johnson: Ttratrs wbat 1€ were t'ying to get at with nr.unber 5 here? C€ry Warren: Right. counci rman Johnson: so if we said tlre rocation for fire trldrants strourd benegotiated, 1pu think that would be the better way tnan b"i,B ;;p""iil ".we ale right ttere? Is this -wtnt's going t" Gpe"ne Is tttis what you wantLots 6, 9 ard I0, Block I ard all ttris iooa =ti,?ii- -':'r* -* Gary warren: we rEed to address ard r think tlat lrark is agreeabre to clmingrp wit} scrne modified approactr for getting i tvar.nt i. th;;;. I€-p;ni"a orttwo possibre rocations here ard tlE-r,s ,t;t r;il-g"ttirg if *-l It,iI[-"ili*tto ny review ard aFprc^ral, I think that rould iuifi.e. - Mayor rhmilton: Ihere isnrt any disagreement on tfiat issue? Gary Warren: No, ke have to work out the details. I Courci lnan llcrn: you Uant to eliminate 17 then? councilman Boyt: yes, that'is right. r think re have that resolved. Courcilman Johnson: tI] ]rou Hant to indicate how rE resolved ttlat? Courcilman Geving: Itrs not necessary. CourEilman tbrn: Itis showt on the plat. Gary l{arren: fte phasing is tte key part. Barbara Ecy! rt's hooked into ttte gnse 2 construction. rhere should be aclrdition. l'layor Hamilton: rhat's true. rt shourd say as part of phase 2, rlr ror hirlwill be reduced to provide sight d istanc€s iequiied by lhDot.L 63 City Council l.reeting - Jvl-y 29, L987 Councilman Horn: I would like to see you modify number I to include Jay.s cllnment about reviewirg all of the street mmes by the Publ ic Safety. Notjust the ones theyrve irdicated. Mark Koegler: Just one question of clarification, I urderstard the possible confusion trl street rEmes. t$e c€rtainly would defer the RrbI ic Safetyrs opinion on tlat. I think he had reviewed it arrl thatis wtrere tlpse first two charges came from. If you fird Itlrvers Point Road acceptable, I would ask that ttre Courcil acc€pt tlEt. this prolErty has historically been known as Iturvers Point for about I years ard tle fam ily wanted to retain that rEme as the name of the street. lltrught it had a nice ring to it as far as ttre developnent so again, we don't rlant to jeopardize FlbI ic safety but if it's agreeable to ttre H:bI ic Safety Director, would tlte Council a1lohr tllat one to remain. Counci lman Horn:I think ttre question is confusing with Kerber BI:/d.. Itrs Kerber Blvd. ard l(uwers Point Road. I don't think Counci Iman Geving: I don't think tiere is any confusion on my [Ert. I thinkit should be lorrvers Point Road as depictdi dl tlE plan ard as proposed by the developer. theyrve been there foE 80 years, I think this is their develotment ard they have tlp right to have their nanE on tle develogrent. Councilman }lorn: So you donrt r€nt to tear *rat lrrbl ic safety has to sa!? Mayor Hamilton: I think we can simplify it by saying that we're all in favor of Kurvers Point Road remains ard have the F:bI ic Safety Director review tle other ones. @urcilman Johnson: I see our RJbl ic Safety Director over here indicatirq to ttE that he doesn't have a problsn with it. Cour,ci lman Boyt moved, Courcilman Geving secorded to atr4)rove Subdivision Reguest *87-14 subj ect to ttE plans stanped rReceived June 4, I987i' with tlp following corditions: 1. renane totus Circle and Ltus View tane. 2.Additional manholes ard pipe berds shall be utilized where appropriate to install tle sanitary sewer ard watermain witlin the roadway area ard not urder the curb ad gutter. F t_ Eosion control measures shall be provided, especiaUy for the connection to the existing sani taly sewer frcrn manhole 2 to existing manhole *16 arld the beachlot a!ea.t_ 3 64 'i.1C !4ayor tlamiLton: tlere is. Councilman Ceving: !lo. I think tle only reason the F:blic.safety recommerded a change on item 1 is to eliminate confusion on lotus Circle ard Ltus view. Ib me there is no confusim dt Kerber Blrral. ad Kurvers Point Road . t17 -t- City Council lGeting - July 20, 1987 8 o ls. 1I. L2 14. Ihe watermain on totus View tane shall be connected to the existingtlunk iratermain at ffl 10L The watermain proposed for vlillow View- loye stnt] be loop connected to the waterriairi proposed for KurversPoint Road. A mininum 8 irch diamete*ii.rr"'in it.:.r u-u-iiiirJ onthe deadend line proposed for totus Circle. A lraternain extension shall be provided ard a trlrdrant insta[ed to befte lo-grolide- fire prot€c-tion to ttre existinj-er* h"il;;i; ;9, ard Lg, Block L 1te trlzdrant stpwn on Ottl;t A should be.;Jt<>the west -rEar manhole *15 to better *r"i"" tt" area and elitninategaps in fire protection clverage. ltre watermain cqnection at t}le south erd of zurvers point Road tothe existirg 12 inctr nain shatt be mads ti tfe-lnstafi"ti;;-;i;;"gate valve ccnnection ard centered at thi intersection of this - --" roadway. Likewise, the rratermain connectim-fiopos€d for the norttrerd of Kurvers point at m 101 sharr be &nl"i"a- in ttiis- interilrionwith a gate valve. A1r utilities ard loadwalxs shau be c$structed csnsistent with theCity's urban stardards. state De-pt. of ltansportation [Ermits sharr be obtained for tlreproposed connection to IH lg} lnl State requirernents for sightdistance and turnlanes shall be cqnpf iea- witirl-' Culverts- shall be provided urder the Kurvers point Road connectionsto TI.t 10I to rnaintain tlre drainage in Oese aieis. InternaJ. erosiqr cpntrol .measlres, in additio to that proposed,shall be utilized to mitigate off_site transpori of sedinent. Afinal Grad ing ard Elosion contror pran *rari'ue'incrual aJ-apprweoas -part of tte plans and specifications for t}lis project. Al;;grdorse. the use of t1pe rr Lrosion controfi -J'riouiirrg -""ji^.it traps r*Erever appropriate. Irtood fiber blanket. sttall be utilized on all slolEs greater t}an 3:1. storm dra-irEge calcuratirg ard deumentation sharl be suhnitted as apai! o! tie plans ard specifications and irnpacG to t}re wetlardeval uated . IF..ipli"*t strall apply for ard obtain Frmits from tlle l{atersHrJrsrrrct, DllR ard otlEr Alpropriate regulatory agercies ard cmplywith ttreir conditions of ipproval. The aEpl icant shall enter into a deverolment contract ard provide theCity with the finarcial :a,Ie!ies. req,rirk Uy tfris contract for properinstallation of these inprorements. @mpliarce with the action taken by t-tre hrk and EcreationConmission. 4 6 7 t3 15. 65 I a,'1;,\A WEf,IAND. City Counci 1 tEeting - July 20, L987 16. 17. r8. Irdividual grading and drosion c-ontrol ard tree removal plans shall be subrn itted at time of buildirg perm it applicatiqr for Lot 5, Block1, tots l-7, Block 3, tots l and 2, Block 2, Lots 8, 9. Lg, 16, l7ard I8r Block 4. As IErt of the *lase 2 construction tlre bill on IH 10I will be reconstructed to resolve tle sight di stance problgn. Ihere l{iIl be a timber managernent plan by the thIR forester on tlis property payiDg special attention to the area on riparian lots within 75 fe€t of tle high nater mark. All voted in favor ard motion carried. C. WCTTAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO ALLOW CONSTRI'CTION WITHIN 2gg ?W OF A CTASS Barbara Dacy: there were a coqrle of sight visits with Dr. Rockwell to determ irF the edge of the existing $retlards ard that was used to prepare theirsuhnittal. A1so, since the Planning Commission action, the drainage calculation has been reviewed by the engineering office ard has been confirmed that the storm design ard storm rrater run-off calculations meets tbe 190 years storm event in compl iance with the i{etlard ordinance. At this point Staff is stating that the proposed drainage plan is meeting alt the wetlard alteration IErmit guidelines. Technically tle run-off is not within tlE wetlard. However, the rate of run-off will be less than or the same as existing rate ofrun{ff through the devel.ognent. Tte secordary issue is in regards to the docks. Eour lots do clntain some wetlard area. Iots 1 and 2, Block 2 ardLts 1 ard 2, Block 3. The recommerdation was that the wetlard alteration permits be processed prior to final plat approval so that action taken by the City can be recorded alorg with tlE ale€ds at the County. I krpi{ the Council had discussed this issue in a prior application. However, the recommerdation frcm the Planning Commission ard the staff was to cordust that process priorto final. plat approval. that sas it on tlre rretlard application. t !,ta!k Koegler: Just a couple of comments. lfe certainly have m dispute with what is required. It's clear in the ordinance. Itre only tling thatrs notclear in the ordinance is when it has to be done ard by whon. There are twovalid approaches to doing that. Cte Barb summarized. Itre other one we would ask you to consider, really offer as a suggestion, is to al,low the irdividual homeowners when they p.trchase the protrErty to c.ome back ard do that. Ihe reason rre request that is we bel ieve there is a possibilier that each ofthose, yourll erd 14> reviewing applications twice. We will come r4l with aplan if thaE's your direction ard do that before the final plat showing acressto those lots, docks ard so forth. thatrs not to say six rnonths later - when a hcrneowner ccrnes in ard he would want a different configuration. We wouldrather leave it to him to make that determination. If you wiII not [Ermitthat for hrhatever reason, we will take care of it mw. Courrci Iman Johnson: Barb, I see two of these tlrat are affected by the wetlard but what are the other tvro again?t AA 118 r 28 rayor Hamilton movd, courci rnan lrrrn seconied to aEDrove tlle Krrvers point subdivision Final prat aproval. Alr voted in favoi ard motion carried. AppRovel. oE DEVE OpMEhTT CONTRACT, CmNHASSBiI vrSTA 4Tt{_i_ _ADDITION. City Courci I |beting - Septsrber 1.4, I9B7 KURVERS POINI ADDITION:FII.AL PLAT APPROIAL. l{ayor tbmilton: r think Bill you hd tlE same colr[nents there. rt,s a littledifferent develolment contract but 1ou mnted to address tiis one. councirtnan BoyE: or this one, there are trro items that we haven.t d iscussedtonight- Gre of them Don was going to cteck on for me on park trails. A tErktrail arourd Chan t\crd. Don _ Ashworth: yes, I did talk with !tr. Koegler ard he is in tlre process ofrevisirg that prat in aceordance with tle s6Enrent that were r"cE-ry ii.Segal here approx fuiately 2 rreks ago. Counci Lnan Boyt: t{hich means UBt r,]l"n we approve t}ris, ne are approving itgiven that cordition- TtEt the deveroper has- igre€d to live * piipiiv ,rr"..we need it for tlre trail. Don Asttworth: Ihat sesns reasonable. Puncilman Borrt: okay. r wourd rike t}at incrded in uris crontlact. Just toDe aDsor.utely clear. Ard the other thirrg is, Gary I have a questicr for 5puon. rtrere was, r wourd guess, about a tz to 14 i;h diametei E*-*l-i""tweek. Did ]rou give approval for that tree to be cut? Gary l6rren: Ihere rere rDt requests given to ne for tree cutting, no. Councilman Boyt: !G11, rould 1ou follor LE) on it? lGyor Hamilton: lgs it within a pad or just sittirg out in the oIEn? CourciLnan Boyt: Really I clulilnrt teII ]rou where it came fror until I saw ituprootd and it was sitting right off the erd of Etontier 1tail. Councilman Hom: Hardwood? CourEilnan Bo].t: Gk. C'ary l{arren: t}c }rou know approx irnately uhere it carne out? councilman BoyE: r donrt know where it came out of. r krnw ttey prleil it rpby tle house tt't, r courd point it out to you. rtrs probabry s6 i".t" rr"mwhere Erontier currentry erds to the west ard thatrs i; direct vioiatim of. .their existing develolment contract. Cournilman Johnson: yesr_ I i{as going to puII this one m!,self in t}tat I have areal probren approving this deveropnent contract when the aevetoper hainit I L 34 L CITY OF CHANHASSEN DEVELOPMENT CONTRACT(Developer Installed Improvements) KURVERS POINT SUBDIVISION, PHASE I AGREEMENT dated CITY OF CHANHASSEN, a Irlinnesota muni anal FranKlin J. Kurvers and Melvin l, 1. Request for Plat App rova 1 City to approve a plat for Kurver this Contract as the nplat" ) . Th the attached plat, Exhibit nA'. approved by the City Council on J hras approveal by the city council , L987, by and between thecipal corporation, ( "City" ),. Kurvers ( the 'Developern ). . The Developer has asked ehe s Point, Phase I (referred to in e land is legaI1y described on The preliminary plat was u1y 20, 1987. The finaL Platon September 14, 1987. rhe city has apploved the enter into this contract and ity nay refuse to approve the Developer has breachedt been remedied. Developnent For two (2) years from s to the Cityr splacing the plat in the controls shall apply to ort size, lot layout or required by state or the City and the DeveloPer.this Contract to the by state law, the City ncs to the Cityr splatting or dedicationthis Contract. plat on condition that the Developer furnish the security requireil by it. multiphased preliminary plat, the C final plats of subsequent phases if this Contract and the breach has no 3 Phased Development.If the plat is a Phase of a 2. Conditions of Plat A prova I . Effect of S ubdivision Approval. te of this Contract, no amendment hensive P1an, except an amendment t urban service area, or official the use, development densitY, 1o tions of the aPproved Plat unless 1Iaw or agreed to in writing bY fter, nothri ths tanding anything in ry, to the full extent Permittedquire compliance $ith anY amendme hensive PIan, official controls, enents enacted after the date of 5. Development Plans. of subsequent phases may not proceed until DeveloPment Cqntracts for such phases are aPproved by the City. Charges and special assessments referred to in this contract are not being imposed on outlots, if any, in the pl,at that are designated in an approved preliminary plat for future subdivision into lots and blocks. Buch chargEs and assessments will be calculated and imposed when rhe outlots are final platted into lots and blocks. 4. rhe da Cornpre c ur ren a ffect dedica t edera Therea c on Era may re Compr e requir dance with the following PIato this Contract. If the Plthis Contract, the written t Plan A--Final Plat dated by Schoborg Land Ihe plat shalI be ileveloped in accor-ns. The plans shall not be attached ans vary from the nritten terms of erms shalI control . The pJ.ans arer , 1987, prepared Inc.Surverying, 4g- PLan B--Plans for public improvements dated August 1987, and Specifications ddtetl September 3,prepared by VanDoren-Hazard-Stall ings , Inc. 31, 1987, 6 . Improvernents.consistent with the development plansdescribed in paragraph 5 of-this Contract, the Developer shallinstall and pay for the following: A. Sanitary Sewer SystemB. Water SystemC. Storm Sewer SystenD. StreetsE. Concerete Curb and GutterF. Street Signs (City installs)c. Street Lightsn. Site clading and PondingI. Underground Uri 1it iesJ. Setting of Lot and Block MonumentsK. Surveying, Staking and Inspection The improvements shall be installed j.n accordance with City urbanstandards, ordinances, and plans and specifications nhich haveDeen prepaled by a competent registered professional engineerfurnished to the City and approved by the City Engineer. TheDeveloper shall obtain all necessary permits from theMetropolitan Waste Contlol Commission, the Minnesota Departmentof Health, the Minnesota pollution Control Agency, the iileyPurgatory Bluff Cleek lrlatershed District, and other regulatoryagencies in whose jurisdiction this plat lies before pioceedingwith construction. fhe Developer sha11 instruct its engineer toprovide adequate field inspection personnel to assure an accep-table leve1 of quality controL to the extent that Ehe Develop-r,sengineer wilI be able to certify that the construction work neetsthe approved City standards as a condition of City acceptance.In addition, the City may, at the Cityr s discretion and at theDeveloperrs expense, have one or more City inspectors and a soilengineer inspect the lrork on a ful1 or part-tine basis. TheDeveloper or his engineer shall schedule a preconstruction meeting at a mutually agreeable time at the City Council charnberswith all parties concerned, including the City staff, to reviewthe program for the construction irork. All material used in thepublic improvements and all of the work perforned in connectiontherewith shal1 be of uniformly good and worknanlike quality. Ifany material or labor supplied is rejected by the City as difec-tive or unsuitable, then such rejected material sha1l be removecl and replaced with approved material, and rejected labor shall be done anew to the satisfaction and approval of the City at thecost and expense of the Developer. $lithin thirty (30) days afterthe completion of the improvementa anal before the security isreleased, the Developer sha1l supply the City with a complete setof reproducible iAs Built' plans. 7. Time of Performance. A1l.public improvenents shall becompleteil within two (2) years of the plat filing. The Developermay, however, reguest an extension of tiure fron the City. If an -2- extension is granted, it sbaI1 be conditioned upon updating thesecurity posted by the Developer to reflect cost increases and Ehe extendeil completion date. Upon completion of the public improvements, a representative of the contractor, and a represen-tative of the Developerrs engineer wilI mak6 a final inspectionof the work with the City Engineer. Before the City accepts lhe inprovements, the City Englneer sha1l be satisfied that aII workis satisfactorily completed in accordance irith the approved plans and specificationsi and the Developer and his engineer shall sub-nit a written statenent attesting to same. Final applova1 of the public improvenents sha11 take the form of a Resolution duly passetl by rhe City Council. 8. License. The Developer hereby grants the City, its agents, E !I6!6es, officers and contractors a Iicense to enter the ptat to perform all work and inspections deemed appropriate by the City in conjunction with PIat development. 9. Elosion Control. Before any site grading or utilicy construction is commenced or build ing permits are issued, the erosion control p1an, P.Lan B Sheet 3 anal 4, shall be implemented by the Developer and insPected and apploved by the City. Silt fences, hay baIes, erosion control check dams, sedimentation ponds, floating siltation traps, and all other erosion control measures shohrn on PIan B and required by the City and the hlatershed District, shall be installed before grading. the city may impose additional reasonable erosion control requirenents duiing- the course of the construction if they would be benefi- cial. A11 areas disturbed by the excavation and backfilling operations shall be reseeded forthwith after the comPletion of the work in that area. ExcePt as otheririse provideil in the ero- sion control p1an, seeil shall be certified to provide a temporary ground cover as rapidly as possible. AlL seeded areas shaIl be iertilized, mulched, and disc anchored as necessary for seed retention. The parties recognize tha controlling erosion. If the Develope erosion control plan and scheilule or received from the City, the CitY may appropriate to control erosion. The the Developer 72 hours in advance offailure of the City to do so t ill not ine is of the essence in oes not comply irith the plementary instructions e such action as it deensy will endeavor to notify proposetl action, butfect the Developerr s and daily clean streets,that has resulted from agents or assigns. ttrd sup cakcit any afcityis rights or obligations hereunder. If the Developer does not reimburse the City for any cost the City incurred for such work within ten (10) days, the City Bay draw down the financial security as provided by the Developerr to pay any costs. No development will be allowed antl no building pernits will be issued unless the plat is in ful1 compliance with the erosion control requirements. 10. Clean Up.The Developer shall on and oEE- sfte, of all dirt and debris construction rrork by the Developer, its 1I. ownershi of I rovements.Upon acceptance of the work and construction required by th s Contract. the iBprovements lying within public easements shall become City property without further notice or action. -3- Sanitary Sewer Wa terma i n On-Site Storm SeiderStreets, Including Curb & GutterErosion Control/Seed i nglGradi ngEngineering, Surveying, andConstruction Inspection Total Estimated Construction Cost I 13. Securi ty.To guarantee compliance with the terms of this agreement ( "securityn ) for $The amount of thee estimate ford in paragraph 12 of securl ty eras calculated based on 110E -E th as provide $ s $ $ $ $ The Developer shall provide the City with copies of theContractorrs contracts, including the accepted bid proposal form,before the initiation of construction. Agreement, payment of the costs of aIl public improvenents, andconstruction of .a11 public improvements, the DevEloper shail rur-nish the City with a letter of crealit, cash or alteinative loan The cost breakdown is for historical reference; it is not a resrric-tion on the use of the security. The City may requj.re the amountof security to be adjusted in accordance with the adoptedconst.ruction bid proposal . The security shall be subJect to theapproval of the City Manager. Ihe security shall be ior a termending December 3I, 1"988. In the aLtelnative, the security maybe for a one year terur provided it is autonatically renewaLle iorsuccessive one year periods from the present to any futureexpiration dates with a final expiration date of Decenber 31, 199g,unless sixty (50) days prior to an expiration date the bank noti- construction of the improvementsthis contract. fies lhe City that it elects not to renei,period. The City may draw down the securi Ehe terms of this Contract or upon receivisecurity will be allowed to lapse before DCity will endeavor to notify the Developer advance of its intent to draw down the secthilty (30) days remain to expilation, in r an additionalfor any violation ofnotice that the ember 31, 1988. Theour (4) days inity unless less thanich case no notice foty n9 ecf ur wh need be given. If the required public improvements are notcompleted at least thirty (30) dtays prior to the expiration ofthe securityr the City may also draw it down irithout notice.With City approval , the security uray be reduced from tine to timeas the Developer completes anal pays for improvenents so long asthe Developer is not in defiult of this Agieenent. i{. Claims. In the event that the City receives claims fromlabor or materialmen that work required by this Contrct has beenperforrned, the sums due then have not been paid, and the laborers . -{- L2. Cost of Improvements. The cost of the phase I improve-ments as specified in paragraphs 5 and 6 of this contract, isestimated as follows: or materialmen are seeking payment out of the financial guaran- tees posted with the City, and if the claims are not resolveo atleast sixty (60) days before the security required by paragraphi3 of this Contrct will expire, the Developer hereby authorizesthe City to conmence an Interpleader action pursuant to RuIe 22, !rinnesota Rules of Civil Procedure for the District. Courts, to draw upon the letters of credit in an amount up to 125$ of theclaim(s) and deposit the funds in compliance hrith the RuIe, and upon such deposit, the Developer shall release, discharge, and dismiss fhe City from any further proceedings as it pertains tothe letters of credit deposited with the Discrict Court, exceptthat the Court shal1 retain jurisdiction to determine attorneys fees pursuant to paragraph 25 of Ehis Contract. I5. Timber llanaqement PIan. Th e Developer shalI arrange for the preparation of a Timber Management Plan by the Deparlment of Natural Resources Forester for this property, paying special attention to the area on riparian lots within 75 feet of the high water mark. 16. Trails and Trail Fees.The Developer shall grade and install a trail along the Kurvers Point Road right-of-way to its connection with TIt 101. The Developer shall submit q. plan for approval by the City Council prior to construction of the traiI. Compensation for installation of the trail shaIl be determined by the City Council at the time of Trail PIan approval . i8. Parkland Fees. Prior to the issuance of building per- mitsits t hen City or res f dential construction within the plat, the Developer, successors or assigns, shaII pay to the City the parkland fee in force pursuant to Chanhassen City Ordinance and relevant Council resolutions thereafter. i9. Landscapinq. The Developer shall plant one (1) tree on every 1ot in the plat that does not already have a tree in the front yard setback. The trees shal1 be selected flom among the f ollow:.ng species; varying the species within the subdivision: Maples (including Norway, 'Schwedler", and Sugar) Linden, American ( Basswood ) Linden, Littleaf (and varieties 'Greenspire" and "Redrnond') Green Ash (and varieties 'Marshalls' and tSummitr) Honeylocust (and varieties 'Irnparial', 'Skyliner, andr sunburst" ) Hackberry Oak The ninimum tree size shal1 be two inches caliper, either bareroot in season or balled and burlapped. The trees may not beplanted in the boulevard. The Developer shall sod the drainagesirales. AlI trees, grass, antl sod, shalL be warranted to bealive, of good quality and disease free at installation. Alltrees sha1l be warranted for 12 months after planting. -5- 20. I,elljlans. Prior to the issuance of building permits f or LoEs f-a-iE-fIS f ock 1; Lots I and 2 , Block 2;Lots L, 2,8,9, and 10, Block 4i an acceptable Grading,Erosion Control and Tree Removal plan sha1I be submitt6d for the1ot-for review and approval by the City Engineer. Each planshall assure that drainage is maintained away from buildings andthat tree lemoval is selectively alone consistent hrith the City,sShoreland Ordinance. 22. Existinq Assess men t s/Connection Charqes.exist against the plat from the East Lotus assessnentsirith Citylevied as take Inp wi 11 be s tandards .a part of As ses smen ts rovement respread Trunk con-this earlierd rratermain Project 75-10. These existingagaiDst the plat in accordancenection charges have aLso been improvernent project and thereforetrunk charges have been satisfied.sanitary sewer an A. Easements exist along the rrestern portionof the p1at. These drainage and utitity easements shal1 be!etained and recorded with the p1at. B. Outlot A and B of the platfor drainage purposes prior to theCityplat 23. Utility and Drain aq e Easements. 24. Street Liqhtinq. shaIl be dedicatedCity executing the to the f inal energy for street I ighting Developer for the first 2rttion of the street lightinof the building lots haveresidences theleof, whiche 25. Street Siqns.by the City as a part nished and installed Developer. The expense of furnishing electricalpurposes shall be assumed by themonths after completion of installa- 9 system, or until fifty percent.(50$) been inproveal by the construction ofver is first to occur. All street natne and traffic signs requiredof the public improvements shall be fur-by the City at the sole expense of the 2_6. I,larrantv. The Developer irarrants aII work required to. beperformed by it against poor material and faulty workmanship for a- period of one (I) year after its completion and acceptancl Uythe City. The Developer shalI post naintenance bonds 6r othersecurity acceptable to the City to secure the warraDties. Thewarranty period for all public improvements shaLl comnence on thedate of acceptance by the City Council. -6- 2I... Tfunk Hiqhlvav ]01, phase If Connection. The Developeragrees.that approval and authorizaiion for ttre preliminary platand initiation of phase r of this plat is nith Lhe undersia-ndingthat. the Developer will connect to TH I01 in phase II as propos6din the _approved . prel iuri nary plat by lowering TH IOI to imirove thesight distance in the intersection location] ?his roweriirg of TH r0rwill be undertaken at the Developerrs sole expense and in - compliance rrith Minnesota Depart;ent of Ilansiortationrequirements. 27. Resp onsibility for Costs. A. The Developer shal1 pay a]l costs incurred by it or Ehe City in conjucntion yeith the development of the p1at, including but not limited to a charge egual to 3t of the cost ofthe insEalLation of public improvements to cover the Cityrs cost of administration and inspection of the improvements. Before the City signs the final platr the Developer shall deposit with the City a fee based upon construction estimates. After constructionis completed, the f ina). charge shall be determined based upon actual construction costs. B. The Developer sha1l hold the city and its officers anil employees harmless from claims matle by the Developer and ttrird pariies for damages sustained or costs incurred resulting from plat approval and developrnent. The Developer sha11 indem- nify lhe City and its officers and employees for aI1 costs, dama- ges, or expenses which the City pay or incur in consequence of such claims, including aEtorneyr s fees. c. The Developer sha1l reimburse the ].ncurred in the enforcement of this Contract' neering and atEorney's fees. D. due, hnd in assessments City for costs including engi- k to be performed by it hereunder, erform the work and the Developer The Developer shalt pay, or cause to be paid when any event tefore any Penalty is attached, all special referred to in this Contract. E. The Devetoper shaIl pay in fuII all bills submitted to it by the City for obligations incurred under this Contract *i.thin itirty t3b) days afler receipt. rf the bills are not Paid on time, the City may halt all plat development work and construction, inlluding but not limited to the issuance of ouilding permits for lots which the Developer may or may not have sold, until the bi1ls are paid in full. BiIIs not paid within rhirty (30) days shall accrue interest at the rate of 8t per year. ailalition to the charges referred to herein, other imposed such as, but not limiteal to, selter availa- ("SAC,), and building permit fees as alloweil byc harge s bility c law. F. In may be harges 28. Develop er's Default. In the event of default by the Developer as to any of the wor the City may, at its option, Pshall promptly reimburse the City for any expense incurretl by the City, provided that except in an emergency the Developer is first given notice of the work in default, not less than four (4) days in advance. This Contract is a license for the City to act. and permission to enter the 1and. Irihen the City does any such worR, Ehe City may, in addition to its other remedies, assess the cost in whole or in part. -7- 29 . Miscellaneous. shall besold to C. Breach of the terns of this Contract by the Developergrounds for denial of buiLding permits, including lotithird parties. E. If building permits are issued prior to the comple_tion and acceptance of public improvements, the Developer aisume"all liability and costs resulting in delays j.n completion ofpublic improvenents and damage to public improvemei:ts caused bythe City, Developer, its contractora, subcoi:tractors,materialmen, employees, agents, or third parties. No one mayoccupy a building for which a buirding peimit is issued on e-ithera temporary or permanent basis until the streets needeil foraccess have a stable base approved by the City Engineer. F. The DeveLoper shall be responsible for aII streetmaintenance until streets within the subdivision are accepted bythe City. warning signs shal1 be placed by the Developer whenhazards develop in streets to prevent the public from iravelingon same and directing attention to detours. If streets becoueimpassable, the City nay order that such streets sha1l be barri-caded and closed. The Developer shall uraintain a smooth roadwaysurface and provide proper surface drainage. The Developer lnayrequest, in writingr that the City plow snow on the strelts priorto final acceptance of the streets. The City shall have comlletediscretion.to approve or reject the reguest. The city shall notbe responsible for re-shaping or damage to che atreet base orutilities because of snow ploiring operations. The provision ofCity snow plowing service does not constitute final acceptanee ofEhe streets by the City. G. Placement of on-site construction trailels and tem-porary job site offices 6ha11 be approvedl by the City Engineer asa part of the pre-const.ruct ion neeting for installation of publicimprovements. TlaiLers sha1l be removedl fron the subject prop-erty.within thirty (30) days following the acceptance-of tlrepublic improvements unless otheririse approved bt the CityEngineer. -8- - A. The Developer represents to the City, to the best ofhis knowledge, thar the plat cornplies with .a11 -ity, seungy,netropolitan, state, and federal laws and regulations, includingbut not limited to envilonmental regulations. If the City deter-mines that the plat does not comply, the City may, at its:option,refuse to aIlow construction or developrnent work- in the plaluntil the Developer does comply. Upon the City's denand-, theDeveloper shall cease work until there is compliance. B. Except as otherwise proviileil herein, third partiesshal1 have no recourse against the City under this Cootiact. - D. If any portion, section, subsection, sentence, 91gys9, paragraph or phrase of this Contract is for any reasonheld invalid, such decision shall not affect the vaLidity of theremaining portion of this Contract. H. The Developer sha1l provide for the maintenance of postal service in accordance vrith the loca1 Postmasterrs request. I. The action or inaction of the City sha11 not consti- tute a waiver or amendment to the provisions of thls Contract. To be binding, anendments o? waivers shall be in writing, signed by rhe parties, and approved by written resolution of the City Council. The City's failure to promptly take 1ega1 action to enforce tbis Contract shall not be a waiver or release. J. The Developer represents to the City to the besc of rts knorrledge that the Plat is not of 'necropolitan significancen and that an environmental impact statement is not requireil. If the City or another governmental entity or agency determlnes that such a ieview is needed, however, the Developer shall Prepare it in compliance with lega1 requirements so issuetl from the agency. The Devel,oper shaII reimburse the city for aL1 expensesr. including ltaff time and attorneyrs fees, that the City incurs in assisting in the preparation of the review. K. This Contract shall run with the land and may be recorded against the title to the property. After the Developer has compleled the work required of it untler this Contract, at Ehe Developlr's request the City will execute and deliver to the Developer a release. L. Developer shall taxe out and naintain until six (5) months after the City has accepted the public improvements, public liability and Property damage insurance covering Personalinjury, incluiling death, and claims for Property damage e,hich may arise out of Developerrs work or the rsork of its subcontractors or by one directly or indirectly employed by any of them. Limiis for bodily injury and death sha11 be not less than $500r000 for one Person and $1r0001000 for each occurrencei limlts for property damage shall be not less than 9200,000 for each occurrencei or a cornbination single limit policy of S1r000,000 or more. The City shall be nameil as an additional insured on the policy, and thi Developer shal1 file with the City a certificate ividencing coverage prior to the City signing the p1at. - The cer- tificate sna1l provide that the City must be given ten (I0) days advance $rritten notice of the cancellation of the insurance. The certificate may not contain any disclaimer for failure to give the required notice. u. Each right, power, or remealy herein conferred upon the City is cunulative anal in addition to every other right, po$er, or remedy, express or implied, not{ or hereafter arising, lvailable to the City, at law or in equity, or under any other agreement, and each and every right, power and remealy herein set f6rth or othererise so existing nay be exercisetl from time to time as often and in such orde! as may be deemed expedient by the City and shall not be a waiver of the right to exercise at any time thereafte! any other right, powe!, or remedy. -9- N. The Developer nay not assign this Contract withoutthe written permission of the City Council. The Developerrsobligation hereunder shall continue in fu11 force and eifect evenif the Develope! sells one or more lots, the entire pIat, or anypart of it. 3 0. Notices.vrriting, anddelivered tothe DeveLoPer Developer: Notice to the Cdelivered to thregistered mail address. City: ( SEAL) ( SEAL ) Melvin M. Kurvers 7240 Chanhassen Road Chanhassen, tlN 553I7 Chanhassen City Ha1lAttn: City Uanager 690 Coulter Drive P. O. Box 147 Chanhassen, Uinnesota 55317 CITY OF CHANHASSEN By: Thomas L. Eamilton,llayor By: Don Ashworth,City Manager DEVELOPER By: Uelvin !1. Kurvers shaIIthe Dbyr itv eC in Reguiretl not.ices to the Developer sha11 be inbe deened to havd beeh received if either handeveloper, its employees or agents, or nailecl toegistered maiL at the following aildress. shall be in wliting anil shall be either handity Uanager, or mailed to the City bycare of the City ltanager at the follor*ing FrankLin J. Kuivers By: -10- STATE OF UINNESOTA)) ss COUNTY OF CARVER ) on this daya notary publlc rrr Eh ,'n Thomas L. Hanilton and being each by me duly s the Mayor and iity uana the foregoing instrumen instrument is the corpo and that said instrunen municipal corporation b Thomas L. Hamilton and!o be the free act and of and for said County, Don Ashworthr' to me p worn did say that theger of the t{unicipalt, and that the sealrate seal of saiil munt was signed and sealy authority of its Ci Don Ashrrolth acknowle deed of said municiPa , 19_ , before me,personally appeared ersonally known, iehoy are respectively corporation named in affixed to saidicipal corporation, ed in behalf of saidty Council and said dged said instrunent 1 corporation. Notary Pub lic COUNTY OF The foregoing instrument was . 1987, acknowledgeti before me this byday of a nil developer s of this property. Notary Public Drafted by: City of Chanhassen 690 coulter Drive P. O. Box 147 Chanhassen, I{N 553I7 ( 612 ) 937-1900 -11- STATE OF MINNESOTA )) ss ) CONS ENT Rosemary smith (xurvers ) and Robert R. conklin, fee owners of allor part -of the subject property, the development of which isgoverned by the foregoing Development Conralt, affirm and consentto the provisions thereof and agiee to be bound by the provisionsas the. same may apply to that portion of the subjlct pr;pertyowned by them. Dated this day of 1987. By: Rosemary Snith ( Kurvers ) By: Robelt R. Conklin The foregoing instrument was acknowLedged before me thisday of t 1987, by Rosearary Snith (Kurvers) anEl66EitR. Conklin. Notary PubIic -12- STATE OF ITIINNESOTA)) ss COUNTY OF ) KURVERS POINT LEGAL Qct att tot !y lt|tsE ?t[sE s: th.t thlvtn i. trlTrr ]i.tc.qrllm D. flrwcr ' hrbard trd-rlfr, fe orre, rd bt Plrr lEtrr.' 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I I 1l: -- --a\ .o\...o \.. oro |.-- (\J o.ro.N o lh t &o' olo co-I I \ I|\'N v A ).. o% |/ I I I I L q\ o tr E.r o. o oo oo.? co r (7) f- o /_OE 1' oooo I I I I t I I ,l 1 I lill T rI{3 lzEXHIBIT "A" l) I I ) I ! l o 7 n E\ o --.1 P )os 0sgf 2x( /Or o p II I I rflx --LIE -{ tEI 19,O0O s oo t_ --tI ft r-:-e lr KURVERS POINT 2ND ADDITTON sq \ -1 t20,7 + 7,750 sq \.-_J 8,3O0 sq ft, gto t- 1 15:1 + eSe r- HILL lZ-> I I I I I I I I t I t' I I I I I I I .t 31,2 +q IlurIJl--o- I I R]GHT IN - RIGHT OUT ONLY /l/LJ la / I \' \ o \ \ \ o NJ L 5oA o 3f--)\ / \_0 p 9 u'n'''po It--' I I 8 J I I I I l -t'----a I 2mx -Iratr -{ toI I lsa-4 -+--.,..' ll4t ..-/ '_\--- I -_--'- mF n ( N n './' n .oq' jtr J 9s9 7 - l7->-rllKURVERS POINT 2ND ADDTION:- oElrl tr,Y 'R.O.W T.H. 101 94 5.6 I t_ Ft , ir :i ,i. 'o '1. l) l,o <-\dr : 1 I I i I J I zoFoo ozN Fz 6 o- U)trt! trlY I il \:l l1 I .t 4 )- ) / /' ! F: a -'l .-; .li. llil \, I I \ \ I \.L5 .6 _)_ i)I I_-\-.t__-_ A€S 0 -! j CiI)r<L mlrll,l L-..'.....\ 'r1? ./ lo I I --l I ^.-!'_t :r -.,$ lrt"/ I I I I ,/ 7 5'Typ.tt tO'TtDaal -:__- a r'.-'','l,-": I n I L 14 P' 20'uta, L 10 I I I I 11 e53 \ \t-1 r63 2 + i--\ J a tl L l. I _--_-..r .,r 0 I EXHIBIT "D" \- 1 I I 't t r=- _-\ LI c. I I I I ) I I I I I ) I BLOCK 1 .9 r\ I I I I I I I I I I I I i fr5 T.H. 101 @m.ll o,m B $ L. \} onZ P 7 (' o $-\ L lZ-r>- ttl ,,,, .t x{'t.. 't i,; t i, .:t. ',it': ,d ,:(.'d;' I a ( {, ,.t J KURVERS POINT 2ND ADDITION CITY OF EH[[IH[SEEN 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM TO: FROU: DATE : SUBJ: STREETS Jo Ann Olsen, Senior planner Dave Henpel, S!. Engineering Technician April 10, 1991 (urvers Point 2nd Addition - project No. 91-U 1g:?I9inS to the approved Development Contracc for Kurvers pointAddition (phase I ) Item 21 statei rhat nThe developer .oi.." tnutapproval and authorization for the preliminary pfat ana' --- initiation of phase r of rhis plat is wittr ttrl indersiinding thatthe developer will connect to irunk Eighway 101 in phase II asproposed- in the approved_ preliminary piat -uy for"rinj-ii"niHighway 101 to improve the site aislairce in- rhe ina;;";;ai;,location. This lowering of Trunk Highway 10r will oe unaeilaxenat the deveropers sole expense in cornplilnce with the MinnesotaDepartment of Transportation requiren6nts.n rhe applicini-t""deviated from this condition by proposing a dead .'ni ."i1a.1.""at the end of Kurvers point Road: ttris iates ior""i"-poini noaaapproximately 1700 feet long without a secondary .""-""-l"int.The applicant indicates that this new proposal i" in re"ionse tothe homeowners in phase r irho are concirnid from a ar.iii;---safety standpoint that a through street wirr piomot.- ii - ii....="the traffic volumes. Staff feels however, th;t traffic volumeswill only increase proportionate).y with the number of loti-beingcreated in- the_ new plat and not any greater than any otherresidential subdivision-in. the city.- Staff sti11 .ipp"it" ttr.previously epproved condition that the street (xurveii point Road)be connected to Trunk Highway 101 as proposed in the iniiiaiPhase Ir - preliminary pI?! including the developer lowering-frunkHighway 101 to improv- the site di6tance at thi intersection. Arthe request of the developer, staff has also reviewed somearternative street layouts which Jo Ann orsenrs report-wiil describe. The proposed plat as -submitted provides a 50 foot right_of_wayconsistent nith the first phase of Kurvers point. Tf,is however,is 10 feet less than the niw subdivision "rai"i"ce iJe"fi"!.Staff feels comfortable in this situation to grant a ,lariancefrom the ordinance due to the anticipated 1ow traffic vorumes and fi7 Jo Ann Olsen April 10, 1991 Page 2 to provide continuity along Kurvers Point Road through the two phases of the subdivision. The streets are proposed to be constructed in accordance with city urban standards vrith concrete curb and gutter. Street grades range from 1$ to 7$ which is acceptable accoraling to City standards. Depending on whichstreet alignurent alternative is elected, the ttlinnesota Departmentof Transportation (MnDOT) will neeil to be contacteil for an access permit to grant the second access on to Trunk Highway I01.It should be noted that MnDOT has approved of this access Iocation due to proposed safety improvements (lowering of thehill) in connection with this proposeil intersection with an access onto Trunk Highway I01. Site distance and auxiliary turn Ianes wilt need to be addressed in accordance with UnDOT Specifications. GRAD ING The site consists of mostly rolling meadonland aPproximately 70t meadow and 30$ woods. The majority of this site is proposed to be graded which will necessitate some tree removal . An earth berm is proposeil along the easterly eclge of the plat adjacent Trunk Highway 101. The height of the berm varies from 8 feet to 20 feet high with 2:1 slopes tohrards the house pads and 3:1 slopes tolrards Trunk Highway 10I. The 2:I slopes are considereil very steep and are not recommended from a maintenance standpoint(difficult to mow). The developer has proposed the slope to provide additional backyard space. The profile for the proposed berm closely follows the existing profile along Trunk Eighway101. No grading is proposeil within Trunk Eighway 101right-of-way. The developerrs engineer sha1l verify that the proposed site grading will not reduce the amount of grountl cover over the Cityrs 12 inch watermain adjacent Trunk Eighway 10I. On Lots 13 and 14, Block 1, the grading plan proposes draining the backyards very close to the proposed house pads. It is recomrnended that a drainage swale be constructed along the far nortsherly portion of these lots and the final plat reflect a drainage easeoent over the area to insure the drainage swale will be protected. DRAINAGE The plans proposetl conveying the surface water drainage through aseries of storm sevrers anal catch basins which connect to anexisting storm sewer provided with the first phase of development.This existing storm sewer outlets into a series of retentionpontls. These retention ponds have been previously designed and constructeal in conjunction with the first phase to adequatelyhandle the storm run-off generated from the second phase. withthese previously constructed retention ponds the developer hasmet the Cityrs criteria to restrict the rate of post develomentrun-off to the pre-developed rate for 100 yeat. 24 hour storm. Jo Ann OlsenApril 10, 1991 Page 3 The placement of manholes and catch basins should b€ so that the systen is locateil underneath the roadbed. pos itioned AN Municipal sanitary sewer service is available to the site fromthe first phase (Kurvers point Road). An 8 inch p.V.C. sanitarysewer is proposetl to be extentletl from the first phase through thesite. The applicant's engineer should incorporale additionilmanholes to maintain the position of the sewer system in thecenter of the streets. As in the first phase, some of theparcels (Lots 1-5, Block 1) will have sanitary sewer accessavailable to them in the front and back portions of their 1ots.The-property currently has an existing farm house, barn andcabin which are not connected to the existing sanitary sewersystem. These structures are anticipated to be demolished ormoved off the site prior to installation of utilities. TTATERI{ATN Municipal water service is available to the site from KurversPoint Road (Phase I) and from the City.s existing 12 inchwatermain located adjacent to Trunk nighway 101. The planspropose extending a 6 inch D.I.p. watermain from Kurvers point Roail (Phase f) through the site anil connect.ing to the City's 12inch D.I.P watermain at Trunk Ifighway 10I. ti is recomme-ndedthat the connection to Tlunk Eighway I01 be a "wet tap" to avoidinterruption of water service. As with the sanitary seweralignment, the developers engineer should design the watermain tobe installed wit.hin the roadway surface and not under the curband gutter so as to help from an accessibility standpoint andto reduce the expense of iratermain repairs in the future. EROSION CONTROL additional storm sevrer lead should be extended from the existingstorm sewer in Kurvers Point Road (Phase I) to Lot 14, Block 1,to intercept the backyard drainage prior to reaching the street. SANITARY SEIIER An erosion control protective barrier is proposetl along thewesterly perimeter of Kurvers Point Road. The plans do notindicate the type of erosion control fence to be installed.Staff recommends the Cityrs Type III erosion control fence due tothe close proximity of Lotus take. Staff also reconrmends thatanother erosion controL barrier (silt fence - Type I) beinstalled imureiliatety after the initial site grading along theeasterly side of Kurvers Point Road south of Basswood Circle toprevent soil washing into streets and storm serrer system. Inaddition, it is recommended that a 75 foot long gravelconstruction driveway access be constructed at the end ofexisting Kurvers Point Road to help reduce mud and debris frombeing tracketl out onto Kurvers Point Road. 4 Jo Ann OlsenApril 10, 1991 Page 4 RECOUIITENDED CONDITIONS I. Additional manholes, catch basins antl pipe bends shall be incorporated where appropriatse to install the sanitary sewer, storm sewer and watermain within the roadway area and not under the curb anil gutter. 2. All utilities anal roaditays shal1 be constructed in accordance with the current edit.ion of the City's Standard Specifications and Detail Plates. 3. The erosion control barrier Iine west of proposecl Kurvers Point Road shall be the City's Tlr1>e III erosion control fence. An additional silt fence barrier shal1 be installed on the east side of Kurvers Point Roail lying south of Basswood Circle iurmediately after site grading to prevent soil fron washing into the nes, streets and storm selrer system. A 75 foot long gravel conslruction driveway access shaIl be constructed at the end of the pavement on Kurvers Point Road to help reiluce muil and debris from being tracked out onto Kurvers Point Roail. A11 disturbed area shall be imnediately seeded and mulched to help reduce erosion. Wood fiber blanket or erosion control blankdt sha1I be used on aI1 slopes greater than 3:1. ?. The applicant shall apply for and obtain Permits from the Wateriiretl District, oHn and other apPropriate regulatory agencies and comply with their conditions of approval . 8. The tatermain connection at the south end of Kurvers Point Road to the existing 12 inch watermain adjacent Trunk Highway 101 shall be made by a "wet tap" to avoid interruption of water service. 9. The applicant shall enter into a Developmenc Contract and provide the City with the financial security to guarantee proper installation of these improvements. 10. The applicant shall extend a storm sevrer lead from the existing storm seirer in Kurvers Point Road (Phase I) tointercept the backyard drainage from Lots 13 and 14, Block 5 6 11 . A revised final Grading and Erosion Concrol plan included and approved as part of the construction and specifications for this project. shall be plans L2. The developerrs engineer shall verify that the proposed grading will not reduce the amount of ground cover over Cityts 12 inch watermain adjacent Trunk Itighway 101. site the rap MEMORANDUM TO: JoAnn 690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 Olsen, Senior Pl annen Bui lding Of f icial CITY OF EH[NH[SSEN &rr.FROM: DATE : SUBJ: Steve A. Kirchman, March 25, l99l Pl anni ng Case SUB *87-14 (Xurvers Point 2nd Addi tion) I 2 Demol ition permi ts requi red for existingof State permit for well abandonments. ifbe provided. Septic systems, if present,by t i censed contractor. structures. Copy appl i cabl e, must must be abandoned trto Erosion control should be relocated to rear yard setbackIines to prevent erosion damage after house excavation hascommenced. \ CITY OF CH[NH[SSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (51 2) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM TO: JoAnn Olsen, Senior FROM: Mark Li ttfin, Fire DATE: April 3, 1991 SIIBJ: Subdivision of 9.14 P I anner Marshal Acres. Kurvers Point 2nd Addition Comments and recommendat ions: A second access off TH 101 should be provided for emergency vehicle access. It is my understanding this was delermined some tine ago, frn CITY OF CH[NH[SSE[I It{EMORANDUM TO: JoAnn Olsen, FROM: Todd Hoffman, DATE: April 2, 199I SUBJ: Kurvers Point Thank you for allowing me to comnent ondivision. The Kurvers Point Addition inAddition and p36p6sgd 2nd Addition) wasRecreation Commission on June 25. L987.resulted in the following action: 690 COULTER DRIVE. PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 Senior Planner Park and Recreation Coorilinator 2nd Addition the above mentioned sub-its entirety ( lstreviewed by the Park andDiscussion that evening Schroers moved, watson seconded that the park and RecreationConmission reconmend to accept park dedicati.on fees in lieuof parkland, to request a 20 foot trail easement along therrest side of TH 101, and the construction of an g foo[.bituminous off-street sidewalk lrithin the street right-of-wayof Kurvers poinE Road in lieu of trail dedication f6es. Allvoted in favor and the motion carried. The City Council reviewed this item a,- their July 20, 1982 CityCouncil meeting. The Council approvecl the subdivision with oneof the conditions of approval being comoliance with action takenby the Park and Recreation Commission except for the reguest for20 feet of additional -right-of-way along TH tO1. This dxceptionwas made as it rras deduced that the initial 17 feet of right-of-way being dedicated a1on9 TH 10I for future road and ditcfiimprovements would acconmodate a trail as welI. The resulting Development Contract ras then amended in Decemberof 1988 as it relateil to trails and trail fees (Section 16 of thecontract). The validity of constructing an 8 ft. bituminous trailin the Kurvers Point Road right-of-way was contested, resultingin the attached addendum being executed December 30, I989. Therefore it now stands that prior to the issuance of buildingpermits for residential construction within Kurvers point Subilivision, lst and 2nil Additions, the developer, itrs suc-cessors or assigns, sha1l pay to the City the park anal trail feesthen in force. Furthermore, the developer must comply i{ith thestipulations outlineal in Addendum "Ai Kurvers Point Development in regard to Section 16, Trails and Trail Fees. fftz v( AGREEMENT dated OF CHANHASSEN, , 1988, by and between the AM nnesota mun cipal corporation, ('City" ) ,Franklin J. Kurvers and Melvin M. Kurvers (the "Developern). WITNESSETH, that the City, in the exercise 6f its powers pur- suant to l'1SA Section 462.358 and other applicable state 1aws, and the Developer, in considelation of the mutual covenants herein contained, recite and agree as follows! Section 1. Recitals. The approveC Development Contract dated Octobet 20, 1987 for the plat of i(urvers Point, recorded August 12, 1988 as Document No. 98321 \'rith the Carver County Recorder shal1 be amended to read as follows: Section 16. Trails and Trail Fees. In the future the City may con.scruCt a tra n the plat along the Kurvers Point Road right-of-*ay to its connecEion erith Trunk aighway 101. The Developer sha1l inform, in writing, each Iot buyer of this planned trail construction. Before a building Permit is issued for a lot, a trait fee shaIl be paid in accordance r.ri th the fee schedule that exists at that tioe. rhe trail fee, howeve!, inay be prepaid at any tirne in accordance erith the fee scheiiule that exists at the time of payment. CITY anal rN virrNESS WHEREOF, said City Addendum to be executed as of the and Developer have causeil this date noted above. ( SEAL ) By: 8y: CITY O ANHASSEN sL Hami otrr Mayor Don Ashworth,Y !{anager -1- CITY OF CHA}iHASSEN DEVEI;OPI{ENT CONTRACT XURVERS POINT ADDENDUM NAN DEVELOPER ,4J .-< /).+r, 21 /L<,tA..t 2,1..:( SEAL ) STATE OF I.{INNESOTA STATE OF MINNESOTA couNrY or CAR\eP By Melvin M.Kurvers By: Fra n ln J1 urve r s on this 3Od day ofa notary public within and Thomas L. Eamilton and Donbeing each by me duly sworthe rilayor and City llanagerthe foregoing instrument,instrument is the corporatand that said instruRent wmunicipal corporation by a Thomas L. Hamilton and Donto be the free act and dee Ashworth, to me personally known, whon did say thaE they are respectivelyof the l,tunicipal corporation named inand that the seal affixed to saide seal of said municipal corporation,as signed and sealed in behalf of saiduthority of its City Council and saj.dAshworth acknowledged said instrument , 1988, before me,or saL d County, personally appeareal d of said munici pal corporation. otary I ss ss The foreq .}8+hday 5 : ..fr.i.; K':,t T. t,.EUU,:::Er; : +=..:ir: liC;A3i r.rnrtC. r;:..:,:SOTAt ,ir:-t.?' CARVEB CoUrlTyi *-s' Hy C::::,:s.o. tupl'es May 29. ,992xlrwww.v gvY-!wfl rgYwYwtvvwwww n g instrunent was acknowled ged before me this f , 1988, by Franklin. J. Kurvers andMelvin M. Kurvers, developers of this ploperty. XA]lArl,..iAl4AAa.fr A.,. ! ..i A!:ti L t t r a;:, i X _I I I Notary P Drafted by: City of Chanhassen 590 Coulter Drive P. O. Box 147 Chanhassen, MN 55317 ( 612 ) 937-1900 -2- COUNTY OF CARVER ) l('^-ri J f":.'.D ' rli lioii'.i FU:_:l: - I _ fTA cAe ,'in c. ;Yft q.nriLlqr !rt._e! 1a.1641 Kuners Point - Second Addition When the Kurvers family decided to develop their land in 1987, they made a conscious decision to create a unique neighborhood area ofhigh quality homes, natural and landscaped open spaces and resident amenities. The original site plan was designed to meet these goals while respecting the landforms and vegetation patterns on the site including exiting wetland areas and l-otus l:ke. The Second Addition of Kurvers Point is now being presented. Phase two retains the original goals but also reflects four years of market and development experience. The second phase now represents the addition to an existing neighborhood rather than the creation of a new residential area. Hence, the knowledge and experience gained from phase one is being applied to phase two resulting in an enhancement of the overall project. The original site plan called for 15 lots in phase two with an average lot size. of 23,090 square feet. In response to the market, the second phase as now proposed features larger lots with an emphasis on the creation of lots with the potential to construct walk-outs on the lower levels. As presented, the Second Addition now contains 14 lots with an average lot size of 24,680 square feet. In addition to reacting to market concerns, the new plan also reflects the concerns of the existing residents who have constructed homes in phase one. The Kurvers Point Homeowners Association has provided input into the planning process for phase rwo. Their primary concerns revolve around safety and traffic issues. Correspondingly, the local road system has been changed to establish two new cul-de-sacs. Consistent with phase one, the Second Addition of Kurvers Point is being presented without the need for any variances or modifications from minimum zoning standards. The project continues to vastly exceed all minimum zoning criteria in pursuit of the creation of a high amenity, high quality residential neighborhood that will further enhance Chanhassen's reputation as a great place to live. CITT OI CEDIETSSEII 590 GOULIEN, DRIVE cEltIEtaSEI, tlt{ 55317(612r 937-1900 AppLICANT : VanDoren-Hazard-Stal1 ings OWNER: Melvin Kurvers ADDRESS: 3030 l{arbor Lane No. llt04 ADDRESS: 7440 Kurvers polnt Road Mpls., MN 5544 7 Chanhassen, MN 5 5317 TELEPHONE (Day tine)553-1950 TELEPHONE: 934 -8967 nlQI'E8I 0 conditional use Pernit - $150 0 Interin Use Pernit - S15O 0 Land Use Plan Anendnent - S1OO _ 0 PLanned Unit Development: - Sketch Plan - S2O0 - Prelininary Developnent plan $3oo + S15 acre - Final Development plan - S2Oo - AmendDent to Final DevelopnentPlan - $3OO + S15 acre IIOEIIJ PT'D 0 Subdivision: PreliDinary Plat: - Sketch Plan - 5200 - Create less than 3lots - S1O0 L create rnore than 3 lots - S1OO + 915 acre + 95 per lotLot created - Fina1 Plat - 91oo - Dletes and Bounds - $fOO - ConsoLidate Lots - $1OO TOIAL SUADrVrSrOf, s307.10 0 Site Pl.an Review - $150 0 Adninistrative Site PlanReview - $150 0 Vacation of Utility orStreet Easenent - $100 0 variance - $?5 I Zoning Appeal - 9?5 0 Zoning Ordinance ADendment -No Charge l liBt of all proporty orD.r! rithla soo f.et of tb6 boundarieg of tbeproperty Dust b6 iacludcd rlth tbe rlrpllcatlotr. SueDty-six. full sizc foldod coplca of tLo plrps lust bc auDulttcd. r NorE- - whe_n nultiple app).ications are processed, the appropriate fee sharlbe charged for each applicatlon DEYEIPPTETT RSVIEI9 IPPLTCITION 0 l{etl.and Alteration pernit: - Individual Single FanilyI6ts - $25 - AII Others - 5150 0 Rezoning - S25o Kurvers Point 2nd. Add it ionPROJECT NAI,IE IOCATION West Side of T.H. 101 3000 Ft. North of T.It. 5 Outlot C and Outlot D Kurvers Point RSFPRESENT ZONING RSF PRESENT I,AND USE DESIGNATION Resldential Low Density REQUESTED I.AND USE DESIGNATION Residential LoL, Denslty REASON FOR THIS REQUEST Second and final phase of Subdivision This application Dust be conpleted in fult and be typewritten or clearly printeit- and must be accompanied by all infomation and plans _required by ipplicable city ordinance provisions. Before filing this. application, _yousirtuld confer with the ilanning DepartDent to detemine the specific ordinance and procedural requirenents applicabfe to your application. This is to certify that I aD Daking application for the described action by the City and that I arn responsibLe for coDplying nith a1I City r-equirenents with regard to this requesa. This application should be processed in ny nane and I in the party irhon the City should contact regarding any natter pertaining to th-is application. I have attached a goPy of Proof of orrnershiP-(either copy of Ownei's Dupticate Certificate of Iitle, Abstract of Titfe or purchase agreement), or I arn the authorized person to make this application and the fee owner has also signed this application. P. Adf Hdlri elrslal signature of Applicant Date b-*1.[";0 )),,",*-^ siqneEure oE'FEIoGer.J Date LEGAL DESCRIPTION REQUESTED ZONING I will keep rnyself inforned of the deadlines for subnission of naterial and the progrels ot ttris application. I further understand that additional fees nay be charged for consulting fees, feasibility studies, etc. uith an estinate prior to any authorization to proceed uith the study. The docunents and inforuration I have subDitted are true and correct to the best of ny knowledge. I also understand that after the approval or granting of the pernit, such pernits shall be invalid unless they are recorded against the title to the property for which the approva],/pernit is granted vithin 120 days with the carver county Recorderrs office and the original docuDent returned to city HalI Records. _J .te.vet f .vz DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS 320 Woshington Avenue South Hopkins, Minnesoto SS343-9469 PHONE: FAX TDD: Aprll 10, 1991 Prul Xrruss, AICP Dl rcctor ol pl annlnoClty of Chinhassen 610 Coulter Drl veP.0. 8ox 147 ChlnhrssBn, t{N Sb3Ll Drar Pau'l: - In response portlon of T concernlng athls tl me, rtransfer of (612) e30-2500 (612) 930.2513 (6121 930-26e6 l{e RE: Propos?d plat _ Kurvers polnt 2nd Addt on ;3,i31,.ffi'1.:1ffi.:31[?lll.l.Jri ioo'iJii"!o,u, or r(urv?rs pornt Road Th.nk you For sendino the Kurvers pornt 2nd Addition prrt to us for revrey.revteved this plat aid naye u," ioiiorini"ioiliJ,iis: to your inqutrv on the stetus ol. the Jurisdic on exchlngc ol thlsH r0l. Hennepin cornt, l?: lot rrio-aiy';i;;;;;;^ y,rth r,ril/Dorn exchange sihce ttre oi.vtous Jurtsorctron-iilrir.r. tn r98g. Atfr.i3r.3jrilrifl.fr,lrl., or scuiiron-riir,'iiNii,6il'ro|. thc JurrsdrcHon - Thr proposed orat' shovs d?dicatine 50 feet or rlght of ray rrom lnd arong thr THl3|tff3t:ill:il .?|i!l on trarric'vii'iil".ni lfe,nnortaicc or ?H roi rn thcoi';;;;bi;;iiil ; li';ffi';;';il Blil?;ll,.l'l|o'i!!l;.:'ri,;i:il,li 'Vi,,."riilnt - The developer should rcmov? the tro cxlsHng drlverays to TH lO1, on thr southp.rtton or the prat, ano ,cs[oie-[;.-;i;;;;BJ eree rlthin Tr{ rol rrght or y!y. iffiJ! l!illrl'Y^t;;,:n:r;?portunrtv to revr?r thrs pr!t. r hope our conmEnte Slncerely, Dennls L, Hans?n. p, E.Trrnsporta on p'lanni ng Engi nerr oLH/08N: gk HENNEPTN COUNTY HtNNtPIN on cgoot oppotunfy Cmplol,., I t , t I ..;i.. o(t \.: )I t I , taoro tr F I ot ol Eaoo('- co 'l c,oqo o e II rtrI t .i o oo 6 oooI lLlIlrr-... 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E! 9i": i st: Ea:E: iiiE! !rEt:it;=E aI s\ '):4, \<CF- ..- -..|-,,/ -./..- g. 111 iIt 95 |) iI!I 3 f.r ,\ a.s"ssl sEt $x$ a t '\-.: 'l iii !r i; 0t .D-- . l-a. n tharL. *.Ei5.f!- XT,FVtE P(''T d E'ITTol.t{s*r --*rtllttEart i.at lL..ir k r rD.,4 u4) *ttu, rf- 1" t _) i\ 't @ 8OT t :-" '1 "-----' : -_ .n -4--'" i I i N - l:\ \. {E .:I a I II ! \.' \\\ I iiP n :t9 >t;: ; !i. !!i9 rl: \L\r \ I -;.jg' 1- I I t_ i'l i t I It'l'- i iI I I .r' .. 1 ---- -a-.+-- *[€ 5s" il$s" s'B ! Y 'I olot J \ CITY OF EH[[IH[SSE[I 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN; MINNESoTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 o FAX (612) 937-5739 UE}.{ORANDI'M TO: Planning CoDDlssion FRoM: Paul Krauss, planning Oir""to0k- DATE: April 10, 1991 SUBT: chanhassen Uedical Arts Buildlng Signage The applicants made a reguest to revise the sign package for theMedical Arts Building to expand the size of - a -grounld Dountedmonument sign over the approved plans and to add tenant signage tothis sign which was. originally restricted to a 6uiiaingidentification . sign. It also nade a uinor request to uarginall!increase the size of a directory sign 1ocated at ttre rear of thebuilding. staff originally had selious reservations with thisproposal. we have not made a secret of the faet that we believeour sign ordinance is inadequate Ln terns of achieving welldesigned, functional- aesthetic sign packages and in additidn, thebackground on this iten is extreneLy conplex. The building wasrequ j,red, as a condition of si.te plan appioval, to get a sign-pIanpackage. approved by the planning Cornnission, which superseded thelimitations of the sign ordinance. Last year an aroendment to thesign package was approved to give additionil tenant signage. staffhas had reservations with. the - potential of indiscrininatelyincreasing the signage on this building each tine a tenant nakes Irequest because of its visual and aesthetic inpact on both theelevation of the Medical Arts Building and on the Chanhassen CBD ingeneral. We therefore opposed the requests as they uent before thePlanning Cornnission on Uarch 2Oth. The_Planning Conruission discussed this uatter at length, ultirnatelyvoting 6 to 1 to recon:nend denial of the sign package tfrat had beensubnitted. The planning Connission was -concerned with theincreasing number -of sign requests related to thls building and thelack of coordination belng shorrn. Houever, Dost of the mdnbers ofthe Planning Conrnission did support looking into an alternative ofadopting a revised sign pa-ckage. As genLrally outlined by thePlanning Comnissioners, this ievised sign pacfage rrould incluileadditional sign bands on the front of th; building to acconmodateone or two nore tenant signs. After this, there would be no noresignage allolred on the building and disiribution of signage to ltedical Arts Building SignageApril- 11, 1991 Page 2 individual tenants uould be the building ownerrs responsibility. The monurnent sign, which had been proposed for an increase in area and to acconmodate tenant signage, uas to go back to its original proposed use as a project identifier and size. Iastly, covenantslrould be developed pertaining to the building and rrould ultinatelybe recorded against the property. This uas offered as analternative to the developer but was not further pursued after the neeting. Staff net with the appli.cants after the Planning Conmission neetingto work out a conpronise approach to signage as outlined by the Planning Conmissionersr conments. A sign package has been prepared and is attached to this report. Essentially, what it does is modify the nid building sign band to increase its height from 2 to 4 feet to acconnodate different tlpe styles and logos. The single sign panel has been broken up into 3 distinct sign areas so that anadditional 2 tenant signs results. The sign package furtherprovides that all renaining front and rear elevation signage will be uniforn with white Letters, sinilar to those which exist on thebuilding at the present tine. The GoId Star llortgage sign, $/hich deviates fron this standard, would be converted to the white letter standard at such tine that a new tenant occupies the space. Sign covenants have been developed that detail allocated sign area andsize liniting the use of logos to the center sign panel . we reviewed the concept with the Planning Conmission infornally atlast wednesday's neeting. They appear to support the concept but objected to the increased size (fron 2r wide to 4r lride) of theniddle sign panels. They also objected to the proposed use ofnulti-colored panels in this area given the uhite signage elsewhere. Staff is supportive of the concept that has been developed. Webelieve it achieves the ain of the applicants in providingidentification for the tenants without significantly disturbing thefront building elevation. we share soDe of the flanining Comrnissionersr concerns regarding the size and coLor of the newpanels but believe that this is getting into a subj ective areawithout having strong guidelines to fo1low. The sign covenants arealso reasonable. We question #H uhlch states that auxiliarysignage such as that used for grand openings and sales shall besubject to approval by the landlord. We wlsh to have anodification inpfenented in the covenants which state that thereshal1 be no signage posted in windows, nor shall there be ground mounted or other ternporary exterior signage utilized for thisbuilding. We believe that both are inconsistent with the signpackage and with the offj.ce orientation of the building. we wouidalso recornnend that the sign covenants be required to be recordedr4'ith the property so that they are part of the pernanent recordpertaining to this building. Medical Arts BuiLding SignageApril 11, 1991 Page 3 The council Day rrish to approve the package as descri.bed lrithconditions. However, you may also wish to consider approving theconcept and returning it back to the planning Connission for iinalapproval . we Dake this proposal because while the planning Conmissj.on outlined this sort of a conproroise, it nay be useful toallow then to have final approvaL of its details since they havealready devoted extensive tine to the slgnage for the luilding.Staff has prepared tuo actions for your review that vouldacconmodate either option. The city Council reviewed this iten at their April gth neeting.staff related Planning coronission connents that were informarlyreceived at the previous planning Conmission meeting on this itemto the council for their consideration. The counail ultirratelyremanded this proposal back to the planning commission for finairecommendation prior to their acting fornally on the request. As with the Planning Conrnission, the Council was sonewhat split onexactly what should be done, however, they did indicate a leneralacceptance with the sign panel arranger[ent as proposed thai. wouldresult in 3 additional tenant signJ. They tlso indicated somereceptivity to the introduction of color in tfris portion of thebuilding. The prinary iten being questioned is Ltre additionalwidth of the niddre sign panels wtrith were increased fron 2 feet onthe previous reguest to a naximum height of 4 feet with thisproposal. In our opinion, the sign proposal has considerably inproved overthe original request and nost aspects of it are supporteid by staff.we are becorning somewhat reluctant to give deiinitiverecomnendations on sone_ aspects of the sign since-this is enteringinto a highly subj e.ctiwe analysis within insufficient guidancebeing.provided by existing ordinances and prior discussioni by thePlanning Corornission and Council.. CTTY COUN IL ACTION severar points lrarrant further exanination. staff has recommendedthat the covenants be designed to prohibit tenporary signage and webelieve that this is reasonable pollcy. ttowever, we- alio agreewith -the applicant that tenporary leasing signage ior space in thebuilding, as appropriate, nay Ee consi-dered icceptabie and arewilling to work with .then to provide suitable language in thecovenants. Leasing signs should be reLatively snaf 6ontainingonly such information as is necessary and strouLa be used for ilirnited duration. ReLative to the sizL of the new, centraL signs,in discussions with the applicant, it is our understandinq that-theuse of the terro sign panel as such in this area is iicorrect.Unlike the panel arrangenent that exists on the balance of thebuilding, the I signs allocated in this area will be free standing MedicaL Arts Building SignageApril 11, 1991 Page 4 letters that are r,rall nounted. The naximum height of these lettersand logo rrould be 4 feet, as proposed. We believe the covenantsshould be urodified, nhichever height is accepted, to ensure thatthe width of the signs are acceptabLe and consistent. Sinplydividing the available space lnto thirds could uind up with signlbeing extrenely different in terns of visual inpact. For exarnple,you couJ.d wind up with a sign that Is 4 feet high and 19 feet longbeing next to a sign that neasures 2 feet by 6 feet. Signcovenants, in our opinion, should be nodified to ensure that thesignage in this area is consistent to a conmon standard. The Arnerican Fanily sign illustrated on the subnittal has a Length ofapproxinately 12 feet and lre believe that this is consistent withan egual distribution of spaces in this area. STAFF RECOMMENDATION Staff recommends the following motion: trThe Planning Cornnission reconmends approva} of site Plan Amendment #88-17 to anend the signage plan for the Chanhassen liledical Arts/Ridgeview Medical Arts Building subject to the followingconditions : 1. The sign height in area C-3 be detennined by the Planning Conmission. 2. The sign fength in area C to be no Dore than 12 feet per sign. 3. The sign covenants strall be revised to prohibit tenporarysignage, either HalI nounted or ground mounted, exceptingtenporary lease signs for nhich criteria vill be establ.istiedby staff. 4. the sign covenants shall be revised to incl.ude a statementthat all signage uust be approved and pemitted by the city.rt ATTACHI,TENTS 1. Signage covenants for building.2. Planning coDmission DLnutes dated t{arch 20, 1991. 3 . Staf f report dated lllarch 20, 1991 .4. Revised p1ans. 1-L1ni EXTERIOR 8TGIIIGE CRITERTI Tenant signage at the building exterlor sharl be allowedoutL ined : RIDGEVIAI' UEDICIL IRTs BUILDTNG eEINEASSEN, XINIIESOIA as A Signage_ Area ,A, - Tenant signage aha11 consist oftenant identification on1y. co-py i= ilstricteJ G- ttr! T::::t,-=_g_o_p_er .n3ne or -servi66 offered. cJrp"ril.roqJos, eDDJ.eDs, shields and sinilar identifying dlvicesare not pertritted. letters shal1 be or, " 3in{fe-Ii;;:Style of letter shall-be y"if9fT, ,upf"r.care-, whii;;individual and be confined within tiri srgnage panel.A11 signage nust be approved by the G"alo;-a. - axi=ti"osisnase nor in confotriance ,iy u. ;;Gi;;; ',,ifir'tii:Tenant Leaves and/or vishes to -cfrang- tn" !E"il-e.- -.'- signage- Area ,8, = Tenant signage shall consist oftenant identification on1y. copy -G ie=trictea io tfte T:::lt,-=_lr-oper .name or -servidd offerect. corporiterogos, ea.btens, shields and sinil.ar identifying aiv:.cesare_not permitted. -Letters shaIl be on . 3in6f"-ii;;:Style of letter shall -be 1nifo54r ,pj"r.ca=e-, uhii;;individual and be conf ined vithiir t'tr-e srgnage panel.All signage Dust be approved by the Gnaf or-a. Signage. Area ,C, - Tenant signage ahaLl. consist ofTenant identlfication on1y. cdpy -G i"=t.i.tja t" tt.Tenant,s -Drope! n?Ee or -senriie- offered. c;rp;r;[;logos, eableIs, shields and sinLlar iaentftyinfa;;i;;;a-re penai.tted, but Day not extend nore.tfr.r, six-i".t ""above or bel.ow the Letters unl.ess the ,1ogo, i"a;;:porates the Tenant identlf.ic.at-io:r signage. Iltters uaybe on two lines, but the total heiglit Jf tfre two :.inelnay not exceed three feet. Single ilne letter= nav-""[exceed one foot four inches. style or lettei ,friif- 1,"uniforu,_ -upper or lower case, fuidiviaual, ffruninitEaor non-illuoinated and be. confined in in area proposedfor such signage as shown. b c I C?a 3-ze-l t l{onunent Sign - A single sided monument sign for build-ing identification shal1 be placed j.n the south yard betireen the building and the sidewalk. The tbp of thesign shalJ. be four foot and the total signage areashal.l not exceed trro feet high and ten feet long (20 sguare feet). The 'copy' shal1 have a DaxiDuD Letterheight of ten inches and be internally illuninated. E. Directory Sign - A single sided directory sign for' tenant identification shall. be placed in the North yard adjacent to the west entry. The top of the sign shaI1b be ru*e feet and.-the total signage area shal,l be -ci5( 3foot wide and +i-:t" f oot si+irashee high. B{rilffiAEn- anC six feet nide ('9 equare feet', E€iant-identifi=a-- i{tg i+Iuti+ate'+. No signage shall be perEitted on the exterior of thebuilding or within the building visible to the exteriorother than what is descrlbed above. A11 exterior Tenant signs nust neet the fo).1owingcriteria in accordance with the attached Ridgevie!, I'Iedi-cal Arts Building Tenant Sign Criteria: 1 13Mlt neon tube ilLunination v/60 ui1li1anp trans- forners . 1/8r' thick rrplexiglastr face. The returns and back to be .032 aluninunpainted to match the signage panel . shop 4. 5-l/2n thick letters exactly, face to back. -b F 2 3 5. 5. Single letters no higher than 36r. If Etackedwords, no higher than 36tr total.. No ringle lettershal1 exceed 16n if words are stacked. A singlero!, naDe of equal height letters Eay be 36tr high. Signs shall. be centered on horizontal center lineof fascia. Signs sha11 be confined to spaces and sizes shownon drawings and approved by the LandLord. 7 Lc?3 D. G. 3-rq-q I 8 Sign instal.Ler to provide and install wire toJ-box providgd by others, near back of sign. Wireshall be suitable for installation in return airplenun space. H 9. No racelrays are alloned. 10. 11. 12. 13. All exterior signage voltage sha]I be verifiedwith existing pohrer. 111 signage shaLl be constructed per aboveihowever, each Tenant will be alloved ttriir orn lei-ter style for signs in area ,Cr. Signage contractors gust include in their pricingthe cost to review the criteria with each ienantldesign the_ actual copy, create the shop drawing oieach for fabrication, and include thJ cost oi anacquisition of the signage pernit or pernits toi.each and/or all signs. Tenants shall subuit to ovner and to tie city otchanhassen for approval. 3cC3 I. Auxiliary signage, such as that used for grand openingsand sa1es, shall be subject to appioval iy ttieLandLord. Anchor tenant signage shall be as agreed upon betweenanchor tenant and Landlord. l,ocation of signage areais restricted to tlre designated area on tlie iig".g"band provided. .Ieera-e@e_ji€':.-s.i48ag€t.{Ft|\€lE-than en-+}t?-,ireeto,..:F€+gn- eg- rt S,E- Krauss: Hr. Chairman, I'm comfortable with the conditions. The plans for the restaurant are pretty straigh! forward. The only thing that we uould Iook for is that there not be a- major addition of a bar or something that h,e didn't anticipate and that's not the case here Emmings: AIright. tle've got a motion and second. Erhart noved, Batzli seconded that thc Planning Commission rcconmend approval of Conditional Use Permit 191-1 for Happy Grrdens II Rcstrurantrith the following conditions: 1. All trash shall be stored internally. Prior to issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy, the applicants shall comply with all conditions previously attached to other aPProvals on this site. 2 5 The restaurant voted in favorAII PUBLIC HEARING: AI.IENOIIENT TO SITE PLAN APPROVAL AI.IENDING THE SIGNAGE F OR THE CHANHASSEN is and only permitted one walI sign. the notion carricd unaninously. '1 I,IEOICAL ARTS F ILITY LOCATED AT 47O IIEST 7 ATH STREET .A a Public Present: Name Addre ss Bob Cope I a nd Brad Johnson 7625 llelY o BIvd., Suite 155, Edina Lotus ReaIty Sharmin AI-Jaff presented the staff report on this item. Chairman Emmings called the public hearing to order. Bob Copeland: l.1y name is Bob Copeland. I'm one of the ouners of the building. If I may, I'd like to revieh, briefly with you what this is a]l about. This is the Chanhassen Medical Center. It's bee.n called various other things. Ridgeview Medical Center most recently. This is the parking Iot side and this is the strc'et side. The tuo signs that are in question here, this is a directory sign. This is the proposed location of that and I don't think the location is at question. I think the issue there is that the sign that we'd like to put in place now is 5 inches higher than what u,as apparently previously approved. So that's the issue as far as I'mconcerned. So it's 6 inches higher. So that's one of the r6!sons'u,e'rehere. The other one is that Lhis sien, this is the location of the.pylonsign. It's the 78th Street side and theie are two things related to that sign. According to staff, Chis sign is that we're proposing is 4 feet wider than approved by Council - And also according to staff, they don't like the idea that ue ulould say th,o things on the sign. As you can see inyour packet there that ue would say on one part of the sign ue say Planning Commission l.teeting March 20, 1991 - Page 4 h,* Ridgeview Center and on the right hand side we would say the name of thetenants, American Family Insurance. Now first of all let's maybe just takethese things one at a time if ure may. I think that the directory signs, weagree uith the staff that we are changing ohat we like and we,d Iike tohave it 5 inches higher now and we don't think that's a material change andule don't think that's really worthy of much conversation and hope thai youjust go arong with the sign. l.te think the proportions are better and we,djust like a 6 inch higher sign. on this pylon sign, we disagree with thestaff. tle maintain that this sign was approved at 14 feet wide and thereason h,e say that, to document that if you turn to the very last page ofyour packet. 39. Page 39. About 3/4 of the way down you see somecomments made by me on June 4th there and it says, I said that it's not amassive Amoco type sign. [.,e h,ere talking about this very sign. It'sapproximatelv a foot and a half high. r didn't have the drauings so rh,asn't sure about that dimension but it's 14 fcet side. Then there wereabout 2 or 3 other comments and that was approved. so we don't think ther..lidth of the sign is an issue. Ue think that it's 14 feet side and that'su,hat was approved. Now as far as whether the sign can say one thing or twothings on there, I would suggest to you that there are many, many signs inthis communitv and most other communities ulhere these pyron -signs ="i ,oi"than one thin9. I call your attention to the Fire Department sign. Thatpvlon sign out there that has the name of the Fire Dcpartment and then italso has a message on the same sign. The sign for Tor.ln Square. Itidentifies Town square. rt has a message related to some sales and thingsand then it also mentions the name of one of the tenants. The Brooke'sFood Market is mentioned again on the pylon sign as uell as on thebuilding. I think there are other instances of that too. The Countrysuites sign, pvlon sign. rt tells you that it's country suites but it alsohas another sign urhere they can change the wording and i think today ithappens to sav ulelcome. But it says two chings on the same pylon sign. soue feel that our sign is in keeping r.rith the other things that have beenallowed here. hle don't see anything in any ordinance that prohibits this.tlhen the council last time talked about not more than one tenant on.a sign,that u,,as regarding the uall. signs. Not Lhis pylon sign and there wasn'tany discussion of whether there could be one or thro things put on thispylon sign. So we think that Ee ere, our changes are minor. The)z aretotallv r.rithin the ordinances and r.re suggest that you should vote favorabryon them. Just for your information, on our nalr signs H€ are at about 30*of what we're allowed in terms of arca. on our business directory sign,we're at 222 of the size allowed, cven with our 6 inch lncrcase in height.On the business pylon sign, ere,re at 45* of thc allowcd square footage.Even uith the so called incrcase. If you buy the incrcase line ofreasoning. Over aII, ue are at 3OZ of our alloned signage related to thisbuildine. tle don't see anything rdronE uiLh what ue'rc proposing to do hereat all and we see it as very minor differences, if any in sone instancesfrom uhat was approved before. So that's aII wc havc to say. If .you haveany questions, I'd be happy to ensh,er them. Emmings: AIright, thank you. her e? If people have questions, you're going to be Bob Copeland: one additional I'll stickthins if I around. Oh wait.may. Just so you I'm sorry. Let me point out have the proper perspective. Planning Commission Meeti ng tlarch 20, 1991 - Page 5 Planning Commission l.1eet i ng Harch 20, 1991 - Page 5 This drawing shows the street elevation of the building and the proposed sign so that's the side. And this side shows the parking lot side of thebuildine and the directory sign. That is 6 inches increased in height.. Emmings: As far as American Family is concerned, urill they also have a band on the bui Idi n9? Bob Copeland: No. They will not. Emmings: That uould be their only eign? Okay. Bob copeland: They want identification on the street r,lhich I think )zou can probably understand. Erhart: tJouId you explain that? I don't understand that. 8ob Copeland: on the 78th street side? Erhart: tlhy not, as opposed to a band? 8ob Copeland: Eecause the bands are taken. There's no band to be able to Fut it on. I took a picture today and I also cut out that little square and tried to shott you the aPProximate size of the ProPosed sign. This is the pylon sign. So you might iust pass this around and see down there. The color would match the sign bands but that's the size of thts Pvlon ue're tal king about . Erhart: You mean gold? Bob Copeland: Pardon me? No, it's going to match the deeP burgandv color. Conrad: It's not a waII mouneed? Bob copeland: That's corrcct. l.le have all thc urall mounted signs that there's room for and that r.re've asked for and ue're not dlscussing waII nounted signs at this time. Erhart: Is the sign going to face directly into the strect? Bob Copeland: correct. Erhart: How far auay from the building? Bob Copeland: I don't knou that prcciscly but it's within 5 to 10 fcet of the building. Erhart! Okay. And what's thc distance bctuccn thc sidewalk and the building in that spot? Bob Copeland: Approximately 20 feet. Erhart: okay. and that's 9oin9 to be grass? PIanning March 20 Commission Neet i ng !997 - Pase 7 Bob Copeland: Don't hold me to that exact dim6nsion. I don't knor.rexactly. Erhart: And that's grass in there? Bob Copeland: .It's grass. From thc building out there.s a landscaped area$rhere there are chips and some sort of shrubbery and that kind of thins andthen sod from the sideuralk. Conrad: ts it i I lumi nated? Bob Copeland: This sign would be illuminated, yes. The directory sign. Conrad: Backlit or i I lumi nated? Bob copeland: rt would have a right inside so r guess backlit is the term-It's a box. It's an aluminum box. Burgandy color and the letlering isr.rhite - conrad: Hor^, come you have it facing straight out vcrsus facing the trafficflow? Bob Copeland: I don't think it wil] fit on the prop.rty. Conrad: The 14 feet wouldn't fit, no. Bob Copeland: No. Erhart: If you had a prefercnce of having one morc band. Bob Copeland: I don't think there's an adequate placc for one. Erhart: ttel] the center band is in the csnter of thc building and thenthere's tuo blank spots on cither sldc of lt. Bob Copeland: l.lell you uouldn't xant to add just onc more. Then you'd Hant to add two more. Erhart: tlell, we could movc one ov6r. fn othor rords, get 6 bands. Emmings: But you did sly that American Family has cxprcssed a prefcrencefor having it? Bob Copeland: No, thcy hrven't necessarily exprcsscd rn int.rcst, Theyuant good signage from the 78th Str6ct sidc. l.lc havcn,t discussed thatwith them so I'm not rcally sure. Erhart: I mean, ue had onc rneeting t.lheri you spcntspent a bunch of time and uent from, f guess ue clar band signs. l.taybe Nhat you really need ,.s 6. tlhat months from now another trnant will come along and s uas 7? r bunch of money anified that we needetells you today tha ay uhat f rcally ne dwed5t5 eded Planning Commission lteeti n9 Harch 20, l99L - Page I Bob Copeland: t,e]l I don't know. If ure're back here again next time,you'd have to reconsider it then. Brad Johnson: I'm Brad Johnson, I live in Chanhassen. I.think basically trhat ue're, from a conceptual point of view as far as signage is concerned, - we have probablr 3 types of tenants on main street. You've got the retail tenant such as Erooke's Superette or you know people that provide products to the customer and r.re're sort of used to seeing them have signs. You have -what is calIed retail service which this building and the additionalbuildins that will be built there are designed for. Primarily. RetaiLservice means I have a service such as insurance in this case or I'm adoctor or I'm a lar^,yer or whatever and I'd like the public to come to my office and know that I'm there and I like to publicize that. So ure have aretail service sector. If you look at your SIC codes in your book someday, SIC. you'lI find that about 5oz of all businesses that are retail oriented are considered to be retail and the balance are service oriented. You knoul service type of clients that are Looking for. Those types of peopLe are the type of people that would hrant to be in the downtoun generally. You then have the type of tenant that does not need to be knourn that he's there or she is there or the business is there. That would be like another one of our tenants in that building called Thies and TaIIe. They have nothing to sell to the public. They don't care if the public knows they're there or not and so they're not interested in signage. They could 6e in the industrial park and that's the primarily place where you'd normally find them. They happen to be an owner of the building so they happen to be in this building but that would be a typical tenant that you'd find in the classic of f ice bui lding r.lho didn't care r.,hether anybody knew Ehey were there or not. So you have three types of tenants. Your downtown location is attracting primarily service oriented retail. Insurance, doctors, lawyers and real estate type of companies and retail retail who do need signage. Now when we designed this building, we put in a sign band along the top that I guess fil]ed with. ue had tb,o Lenants or uhatever. ].Jeprobablt hit about 5oZ or 5OZ of the maximum in your sign ordinances r.rhich I checked today to see if they'd been modified since 1986 urhen they uere adopted. It simply says in the CBD district you're alloued 152 of the -building wall signage. You're al]ou,ed a tenant identification sign of uP to 80 square feet and you're allowed a pylon sign of approximately 64 square feet, none of r.rhich should be higher than 20 feet. That's quotinE out of your ordinances. tle've desiEned aII of these to be much lower and much smal ler because they r.rouldn't f it. I think in anst^rer to your question, oe've nou, gone through the uhole process of signing that building and it kind of balances. Okay? And it's true He could move one of those Ietters back and forth but just to move the letters is $1,5OO.O0 or !l2,OOO.OO. Those letters are very difficul.t to install and so in addition to that, in this particular case the tenant, American Family has sort of a logo. It's that little house that goes over it's name which would bedifficult to add to, from their point of view, to the sign band. They could have the name American Famil.y but the logo's important. end so for their point of vietr they uould Iike to be urhere they are. It uorks outnice, As you say, He haven't really talked to them about the other one butin mentioning it but, so you have 3 types of signage. In another toanother question, uli]I we ever be back? I guess rs long as we are belowthe amount of signage allowed and therc's a public hearing process, because PIanni n9 Commission l.1eet i n9 t4arch 20, 799f - Page 9 we're not just applying for a permit, I guess we have the right to comeback and request that the signage be changed if it,s in properly goodteste. And that's a right that we have. So as I said, the people thatdrive this are the people that pay the ient and the other alternative isthey just have vacant buildings and that's not our goal. That's uhat I'vegot to say on that particular concept. Thank you. Emmings: Go ahead . Krauss: Town Square has a sign covenant package. Each tenant is entitledto one and there is some size restriction but there's a difference that we've tried to maintain all along and that's that Tourn Squarq is a retailbuilding. It's people selling pizzas and gasoline and restaurants. l.,e'retalkins about an office building here. tle're talking about a heavily signed office building. There isn't an tenant in the world, not many thatHon't take a sign or won't ask for a sign and if they could get one they'dlove it. But you know when you go past the IDS building you don't see 45different signs for whichever law firms are inslde. They have a lobby sign and that's just the fact of life that they deal r.rith. Another factorthat's not coming out here is that r^rhen this project u,as approved, as acondition of approval they were required to get sign plan approval . Thatsign plan deviates from the Code. Er hart: From the L,hat? Krauss: From the Zoning Ordinance and Sign Ordinance. In some areas it's more restrictive and in some areas it's less but it Has part of thearchitectural package that was approved h,ith this building. Nor.l what ue'regetting is playing turo sides of the coin. Yes t.te have our sign package butthe sign ordinance also allows us more theoretically so let's get that too. You know, when we argue about a sign being 6 inches taller, that is trivial.. It really is. f don't know where to draw the line. If it's 6 inches or a foot and a half or 3 feet. I mean somcplace in there I supposeit becomes more significant. t.,e're not trying to be contrary h,ith this. Itjust seemed to us that here we had a plan that r.las approved. Here we've Eot a request for additional siEnage. There's no guidance as I uou.Id have liked to have seen I suppose in a sign covenant that reslricted siEnage toprimary tenants. That's something that Ne asked Market Square to do. l'larket Square has signs of different size in the sign package that r.,as approved and it's by the size of the tenant. Only the major tenants has a right to be on the pylon siEn which basically r.riII have the Shopping center name and the supermarket. l.le're comparing a fot of apples and oranges wit Erhart: Can f continue on u,ith the point I h,as tr),ing to make there? Erhart: I wasn't trying to be critical at aII. I'm trying to establish analternative thought that I had and that b,as, you 've got a commercialbuildins, multi-tenant. l.Je've got one across the street over here in TownSquare. You have a sign band. I assume, I mean do we limit the number ofsigns on Toh,n Square building or do ue limit it in terms of how long thesign, the minimum lengLh of one sign is or do we have any limits at all onthe sign band on that building? Planning Commission Heet i ng l.larch 20, 1991 - Page 10 this one and it makes us uncomfortable. tle don't know where to draw theIine basical Iy. Krauss: No . Emmings: Or is that something neN? Krauss: NeII I guess the way I interpretted urhat happened last summerthat the attention was focused on the sign bands themselves. How many bands should be approved. There was no request. No neu, information.discussion apart from Hr. Copeland's comments in the Minutes that I canreca.Il on the staff report relative to those signs except for the factit may have been noted that they were there. Emmings: No. I don't remember it at all either. So there wasn't,there any drauings or anything shouing this, how should I refer tosign in the front there? Monument? brer e that Erhart: Identi fication sign. Krauss: Yeah. Is there any neb, information on that? To the best of my knowledge, no. was sign No that Emmings: Are you aware, ispresenLed back at that time there anything on those drawings that wereor weren't there any? Al-Jaff: No, there weren't any. Bob Copeland: That's not, pardon me. If I'm understanding your question,that's not an accurate ansr.,er. I think if )zour question was, h,as a pylon sign ever approved in any form. Is that your question? Krauss: No. Bob Copeland: Then I don't understand. Emmings: I'm ulondering if we have, I know that we talkedbands and a directory sign in the back. f don,t r€membera sign in the front of the building on the ground. about the sign ever consi der i ng Krauss: That's true. One was approved. Back up a year further to theoriginal sign plan that Has approved. There xas a sign in this location.It's smaller than the one being requestcd now and it only had the namc ofthe buildine on it. Emmings: Let me ask you something here PauI . The sign in the front of thebuilding that they're proposing, what u,as it? That uas approved along with -the rest of the signage? The bands on the building and so forth? Ahrens: tle didn't discuss that at all. Bob Copeland: ttell there r.lasr one hras approved and it's just a qulstion now of what size it is and what it says. Planni ng Commission l,leeting March 20, 199\ - Page 11 Emmi ngs: That's at that time what what ula s I was going goi n9 to be to on ask. If iL? it was proposed, did they say AI-Jaff: This is what uas approved. Brad Johnson: That's a building identification sign but that's not eventhe name of the building. Emmings: tlell, the name of the building has changdd but so then you don'tneed any sign at a]l maybe huh? Okay. Alright, ule've still got a public hearing open here and ]et's see if there's anybody. Have you saideverything to us that you'd like to say at this point? Ne may have morequestions for you later and r.le'I1 give you another chance to talk. Bob Copeland: Thank you. Emmings: Is there anybody else here tJho h,ants to talk? Brad Johnson: I'd like to say something because...and I object to thisbeing cal1ed an office building classification and the signage different.There's nothing in your ordinances to say signage office, it doesn'Ldelineate the difference. It just al.lowed signage in the CBD district and ure built, we've got the Bloomberg building which is an office building. l.Je've got signs all over that. l.te've got, not that I think they look verygood but there is no delineation. As an office building, this is a serviceretail building. I was trying to point out that re do have retail typecustomers like an insurance agents, doctors, chiropractors, ulhich r.riII soin a retail building just the same, all of which need signage. And one ofthe reasons that tJaconia Hospital located at that location is that they knew they could have signage. One of the reasons all of those tenants you see on the front located at that location is because they h,ere looking fora high traffic area with signage. l.le recently leased some additional spacein this community to St. Francis Hospital. If you go dourn on l,lest 79!h,not that I agree with how the signs look but they have the standard signpackage for an office building in that retail look. If you want to look atthat, they've got a pylon sign and a number of different siEns which thestaff just approved and I Houldn't say it looks good. You can't see theletters on it but that's office building signs. That's.all the samecharacteristics of this particular building. Not in the CBD district. Thesigns over there don't rcstrict it. I think that that's rhat you have torealize is that the precedence has been set. l.le have some ordinances thatare here and they approve them as they go along. Ahrens: tlhen American Family noved lnto thc buildins, did they think theyuere going to get a sign on thc front? Brad Johnson: They will not move in the building unless they get a sign.I'm saying my business is leasing space and I'm in town hcre to make surethat the people who Iease space from us make moncy- Ahrens: l.Jhat's the occupancy rate of the buildine right now? Krauss: Yes . Planning Commission Meeti ng Harch 20, 1991 - Page 72 Brad Johnson: 9OZ . Ahrens: It's 9OZ occupied? Brad Johnson: Yes . Ahrens: And there's right now you're only advertising 5? Brad Johnson: I have tr.,o more tenants in there and we're having a hardtime because, r.,,e h,ent to American Family and they said look. They hadother places to go potentially and ue had to present to them that they could have a sign. Ahrens: So you're doi ng other tenants don't car e this all for American Family because all thoseif they're advcrtisi ng? for the next tenant in line. The next tenant the same thing. his si €,n? 3 we had Brad Johnson:is a doctor who Ahrens: LJher e I'm doing it will ask me r^rill you put He may not get one. he move into the building if I don't knour. But right nouIast meeting r as you recall. Brad Johnson: Ahr ens: l^Ji I I Brad Johnson: agreed at theper. O kay? he doesn't get a sign? we knouto so to that originally5 signs and one Emmings: Yep. Brad Johnson: And reduce the total number of potential tenents. At time tre had all the spaces leased. Since that time we've had turo tenants faII through and that's wh)z we said, we felt comfortable. AI] the space was leased and right nob, L,e've got two spaces in there to lease but I thinkit's a matter of principle. tle're dealing in retail locations located inthe dourntor^rn area. l.,e're dealing uith the standard. [,Je come back ulith thenext building you'd better believe is Eoing to have a lot of signs on it and they'II meet code. I don't understand when things meet code and ue'renot asking for variances why we have this kind of problem. I don't understand that problem. Bob Copeland: The building we're in right noul has 3 wall siEns sayingvirtually the same thing on three sides of the building and it has thepylon sign or urhatever you'd call it out here, announcing that it's CityHalI again. So I mean i!'s very common and we'rc not strctching things tothe limit at all with this 3O? of what's allowed. Ahrens: Can I ask a question? Emmi ngs: Sure . Pl a nni n9 Harch 2O Commission Heet i ng 1991 - Page 13 Ahrensr In the staff r-eport it says, on page 3, the second paragraph. Staff originally revieued the signage plan for the Hedical Arts Building asa package and did not hold the project to a strict interpretation of thesign ordinance. The ordinance does not allobr low profile identification signs in the CBD. Back up to the first sentence. I realize there's somewhat of an exaplanation here because you thought that it would be okayto have these kinds of signs on this building because of the nature of thebuilding. The way !^,e envisioned signage to be in the central businessdistrict. Is that right? Is that r.rhy you didn't make them comply strictlyrdith the sign ordinance? Krauss: I think there's a couple of reasons for that. It predated both ofour tenures here but in going back through this ule had a prcmiere buildingbeins built in downlourn. It was built with participation of the City. It was held to something of a different standard, They ulere required by thePlanning Commissj.on to come back in for a signage p.Ian approva.l because6pparentlx the Planning Commission and City Council felt stronsly enoughabout it that it L,as an element that you wanted to have some additionalauthority to control t"Je're willing to abide by Lhat commitment and infact that commjtment as redefjned lasL year and again, I don't know ulhereto drar^r the Iine on these things. Hhen ule have a sign plan that's approvedfor t'larket Square for exampLe. That package of sign covenants, it's almostIike a PUD for signs. That becomes the ordinance for that site. That u,asthe sign plan approval. They do have the right to come back as they'redoing to request modifications to that but again, then to say that chere'san entitlement because the ordinance which is a notoriously bad ordinance,gives them something more, f have a Lough time digesting that. Bob Copeland: In what way didn't the original package meet the ordinance?That's what you say there. You say ure're not allowed a Lor.l sign? you have them a]l over the ci!y. Krauss: Not in the CBD. Bob Copeland: You don 't? Krauss: They're actual Iy illegal conforming ones or grandfathered Brad Johnson: l.,elL the point being $,ritten in there, it does no! allor^, cannot exceed 20 feet in height. Not, ure may have some non-in the CBD. ones . Bob Copeland: tlhere does it say you're not allowed them? Emmings: I'm going to caII an end to this argumenL. is that in the Citya low profilc. AII ordinance, and it'sit says is that it Bob Copeland: I *ould think a lor.rer sign uould you presented to us what you r.,ant be bettcr to present to us at thisEmmings: Have po i nt? Brad Johnson: Yep. Emm i ngs : issue? Alright, is there anyone else here who uants to talk on this Emmi ngs: Alright, Joan. Brad Johnson: I think the point is that we are allouJed. One thing Iobject to this whole discussion is your job, as I understand it. is tointerpre! the ordinance. AII I'm hearing so far is personal opinions.you uonder why ule wonder r.Jhat's Eoing on. You hevc an ordinance and allhear when I come Lo these things is ue should stick by the ordinance.You're supposed to interpret those. And I Ahrens: I think the City Eenerously didn't ordinance to begin with so ne're in kind oftime. make you comply with thea different situation at this Brad Johnson: In h,hat way? Emmi ngs: Okay . have , to express Brad, you've had your shot and it's time for her noh, toher opinions. Go ahead. Planning Commission t,leeting Harch 20, 799! - Page 14 Erhart moved, Batzli seconded to close the public hearing. All voted infavor and the motion carried. The public hearing xas closed. Ahrens: It seems ure've been discussing these signs ad nauseam or r^re didlast spring. tle never discussed and if lhere uas a discussion it tookplace before I came here but I don't remember any discussion of anyadditional signs besides the 5 bands, If you say they uere approved, ofcourse I believe you. I didn't like the 5 bands. I had a real problem with those to begin uith. I thought they looked bad and I think they dolook bad. I think there's no conformity at aII in the letterins or in thesize or the style and to add another sign on there advertising one moretenant in a way that's complele]y, I'm looking at this picture. fn a waythat's completely different from the rest of them, I think will detract from the building. On the other hand I have a real problem with how this urhole thing was approved to begin with. It seems to me that they r.rere tolda varjety.of things as to what would fly sign wise and I'd hate to thinkthat we're just making up the rules as we go along but it kind of Iookslike that to me. I hate the idea of they said the applicants'would come inrepeatedly if necessary to keep asking for signs. I think that's a -terrible idea . I think it r.ri]1 make the building look terrible. I r.Jastold in the beginning, I think we were all told this uas 9oin9 to be aprofessional buildi.ns. Now it's going to be a retail building. I don't know what our expectations are of uhat the appearance of this building isgoing to be. This additional picture that hras presented of, where is this?St. Francis Physician? Oh, okay. I don't think that this is reallyrelevant as far as comparing it with the signage on this other building. I -think the signs on this building look a uhole Iot betLer than the signs onthis retail building. Brad says that the second buildins that's going tobe built is going to be loaded r.rith signs. I think Lhat sounds terrible.I hean it sounds hideous. It sounds. Planni n9 Commission Heet i ng l,larch 20, f991 - Page 15 Emminss: Okay. Jeff - Farmakes; tje]l a lot of the comments that she made I think are relevant towhat u,e're talking about here. I think this uas a problem before it ever came in front of us here. Although I r.rill agree that a matter of personal opinion does get into some of this when you're interpretting these things.Your comment is that's not what we're supposed to be doing but I do thinkthat that we should make commenLs that reflect the overall look of ourcity. I think that's part of, or at least that hras part of the questions Iulas asked when I intervieued for the Commission. tlhen it comes to signageI question two things and I've heard this comment made over and over again.The difference between a retail building and a commercial building. If thepurpose of the signage is identification, as some of the comm'ents that you made was to identify the tenant, but hotr does one distinquish between whereyou've been identified and where you're advertising? For instance, you have 3 signs on the original building that have the same type face. - They're a dark band and they have white type. Then you've got a centersign that's in a different type face and a differeht color coordination. Brad Johnson: Temporary, Farmakes: Okay. And you've got this gold one over here in a differenttype face again. I believe the American Family logo is in red is it not? Brad Johnson: No. Farma kes: But thesign but this logo type I believe is in red. You have the base backgrounditself is in red. Brad Johnson: Not in the sign ue're proposing. Farmakes: Not in the sign you're proposing? So it'd just be in black? Brad Johnson: Like ...plate. It's a backlit sign. The American Family isa standard red, The one that they currently havc ovcr on 79th Street is abacklit sign xith three colors. This one nill be one color. fr.,o colorsactuaIIy. It's r.rhite plexiglass uith aluminum over it. The aluminum isthe color of the sign band rnd then they've cut thc aluminum to show uhatthe sign, that's hotr the lieht comes through. You have a layer of aluminumthat's going to be, what color? Bob Copeland: Burgandy. Ahrens: I don't see that, I don't know why they're going through thisprocess for. I agree,6 inches to increase a sign seems ridiculous. Idon't even know uhy they're going through this process to increase a sign 6inches. I don't know what benefit that has. The outside sign, if it r.Jas approved and if it uras allor.led by the oidinance, I think maybe we shouldapprove it. I don't think that the size. I think the size is an issue andI think it should be approved as presented with just the name of thebuilding, whatever that is now in front of it and not to have additionaladvertising for tenants inside. That's it. Planning Commission l.leet i ng Itarch 20, 1991 - Page 16 Brad Johnson3 Burgandy. And then they put a white plexiglass behind thatso it shows through. And behind that they. light it. Farmakes: So the definition ofplexiglass, it's burgandy? ),our character is if you have a white Brad Johnson: There's white plexiglass and burgandy in the Iittle Iookthat you see there. It's just the reverse of what you print. Brad Johnson: It's burgandy on white. You have tothat's confusing.see a sign and I agree, Farmakes: The point I'm trying to make here I guess is that there seems to be some sort of attempt here to stand ou! from the other signs. tlell, Goldstar Hortgage versus the Business Health Services. Farmakes: I think the end purpose of uhat I'm trying to get at here isthat r.rhenever you have an issue or you have a client coming in, I'm surethat subject to their interpretation, their franchise or uhatever, they'regoing to urant the most identification that is possible under thecircumstances. And brhen you're interprettj.ng these ordinances as to r.,hattype of sign you can build, I'm sure on one hand you Eant the best Iookingbuilding possible. On the other hand, you urant the client. So when we Iook at these type of things, it certainly isn't enhancing your building.I think you'd admit that. You made the comment. Brad Johnson: The gold? Farmakes: l.lell, the gold one or adding onthat you are doing as a matter of economic cl ient . these signs. These are issuesnecessity. Correct? To get the Brad Johnson: The current trend is, if you look at Town Square, there isno consistency to the Iettering and there's a sign band that'sapproximately 2 feet high. l,laybe it's 3 feet high. That runs acrdss thetop of that buildine. And you crn any, because this is erhat is nec.ssaryin order to attrect a tenant, and it can have a Logo. They can hayevarious colored signs and there's no consistency to the lettering. 'Noul He may have made a mistake on this buildine by having too narrow of a sign band and we've identified it so much that we didn'L get the free kind ofspirit that u,e have over at Town Square. I think h,e'lI say that's true.In addition to that, our first two tcnants ulere the same tenanLs and theyput in the same type of sign to balance out. One was on one hand in the Farmakes: Okay, so we have white letters on a burgandy background? Or you have a white background r.lith burgandy letters? Brad Johnson: We probably uill admit at this particular poinL that thatuas a mistake. I nohr knob,, that. It just got through the whole process and_it r.ras in the lease that the tenant required that he have gold Iettering. And we've gone back to him and suggested, because rle agree it does lookkind of funny, that he change it but that was approved both by us and theCity. PIanning Harch 20 Commission Meet i ng 1991 - Pase 17 left and you've got the, r^rhat do you cal.l it? fhe Business Health which is...the standard Iettering... Nor.l Harket Square, the neu one, hasapproximately the same thing as Tourn Square has. It's got a band. It uillhave free form letters. I don't know what I,m trying to get to. tJe reallydon't feel that an American Family 1o9o up on a sign band at this point inIife is a good idea the uay that is set up and that's our decision. Farmakes: But rdhy is that? Is that your client or is that you? Brad Johnson: That wouLd be me. Farmakes: So you feel that...appearance of the building? Brad Johnson: . ..yellor.r sign, I'd have to live r.lith a logo thatprobably look out of place. It'd be different if everyone had atry to balance them ourselves. Farmakes: Now the star next to the Goldstar l,lortgage. is that? Brad Johnson: would Io9o.tJe Farma kes: That Brad Johnson: sign band . That's is a Yeah. a logo, ] ogo? That's a permitted use in the downtown area on the Farmakes: But you don't feel, that would look good say in that center the American State Farm Insurance Iogo ar ea? Bob Copeland: That's strictly just a matter of opinion. It's veryinteresting this r.rhole conversation because I can remember being over hereat City HaII urith the previous Planner and the consultant to the City urherethey told us r.lhen this project uras sLiII on the drawing board and tsheysaid, ure don't hrant a plain building. You've got to get some signage inthere. They've got to be multi-colored. tle rant it close to the road. Hewant exciting. tle urant some interest. And that's uhat they said. That r.,as the tone of the project. And that's the Hly it l.as set. Now you people look at things diffcrcntly. tlell you'rc certainly entitled to but . . . Farmakes: You're misi nter pretti n9 . Bob Copeland: ...there uas a different tone sct carly on for this. Farmakes: You're misinterpretting my question. l,ly question to you !.,es, r^rhat uas the motivation for the story here as to how these signs, lhat wasthe history behind these signs being different? Brad Johnson: AII those signs fit in the sign band. And that, fro. our.point of view, woul.d have been okay and from the Cit),, 'e point of view. tle approved the signs and the City approved the signs. Once the band has beenset. The same for Toh,n Squarc. I Dean oe could have had the same signsfor ToHn Square as we had harc. Pl,anning Commission l.teeting Harch 20, l99L - Page 18 Farmakes: tlelI, I'm stiIl. unclear. l,laybe I'm not Iistening to you correctly but I am unclear as to the motivation hlhy you don't want to put it up on that sign band? l.,hy your client doesn't or if your elient isconditional as to it being in that corner down in the way it's beingproposed her e? Brad Johnson: t"le had heard the last meetins five. tJhen h,e came out ofthis last meeting five tenants on the sign band. One sign per Little stepin and out. Five signs. That's what we heard. So bre never presented to them that they could do it any other uay. I don't think r.re could do theIo9o. tJe could say American Family Insurance. Farmakes: So the size urould be too small if that roof was up and abovethere for the type size is r,lhat you're saying? Farmakes: Now do you interpret that or does your client as to how big? I mean is there a certain point size on that type? Brad Johnson: The cI ient . Farmakes: The client does? Brad Johnson: If ue're 9oin9 to do the logo, you have to do... Farmakes: No, I'm talking about the size of the sign fortype. The size of the type as it's read from the street.the size of the Brad Johnson: They have a sign standard that says American Family Century 2L ot any of those places. There's a certain relationshipthey have said in their franchise and whatcver and you just try tothat as much as possible inLo the ordinances. The scale of that... orthat wor k Farmakes: I guess that ansr.,ers as many questions rs I have. ryou to some extent that that ordinance is vague and I hope thatcan rectify some of that in the future here. a9r ee maybe ui th HE Farmakes: I feel it serves it'sr.rith it. I don't have a problem Batzli: Directory sign in the have every right to be looking PUTPOSe.on the o back, thumbs up for me. I think thatat this hon ne'rc looking at it given guess I don't see a problem side of the parking lot. I Lhcr l.re the Farmakes: tlhy is that? Brad Johnson: It's just not wide enough. Brad Johnson: You can't go outside the sign band to actually accomplish l^that I think their logo does... Emmings: Do you have anythinE on the directory sign in the back? Anyfeelings about it one l,ay or the other? Emmings: Okay, Br ian? Planning Commission Meet i ng t'1arch 20, 1991 - Page 19 way the building was developed and the conditions and everything else. Asyou'll remember from the last time, I thousht that this building r.ras kindof the equivalent to a do!,ntown Excelsior area. I liked the signs. I hatethe t"ray the appli.cant keeps on coming in here and I would say let,s do thisone but kind of a read my lips. No more signs. I can't believe tha!they're obviously in here. They urant another tenant and for economicconsiderations they're going to come in and try and brow beat us and r kindof resen! that attitude. Emmi ngs: Annette? Ellson: r don't have a problem r.rith the directory sign. r agree r,,ith Bradthat there's differences in the SIC codes and things like that. I keptthinkins to mvself that the difference r always see with Town square andaII these others is that thev actuallv people drau people in because of thesign. You're going to go and buy something and would an insurance sign make me stop and say, gee honey let,s go in and talk about insurance r.rhiler.le're driving by. You know it's these types of businesses aren't thatkind. You're Iooking them up in the YeIIor.r pages and a lot of people saythings like r.re are in the tledical Arts Building or they say things likethat simplv because thev're that type of business chat still draur people and they don't have all the signage. I think that they don't have nearlythe drop-in traffic that Town Square type of take-out chow mein r.rould andthings )ike that. But if the ordinance allows th6m to have that, I'dprefer it be up on the uaII. It's funny, I uould rather give utr anotherspace on thet ..JaII and make a small American Family in the band then to putit on the ground there. But if the ordinance allows it on the ground,then I urould r,lant to take away 6 inches and make it as small as possible. That 's it. Emm i ngs :Ladd? Paul, there In our an identification sign. l.lhat, other than Krauss:ordinance? Conrad: Kind of like what can 9o on? Conrad: size , are Conrad: So name of theThat's not the standards for sta ndar ds? it's no bui Idi ns a unique unique.or the thi ng? This is not a precedent xhere you have the name of the group of offices plus a tenant? Krauss: No. And that's why ue've rcsorted to basically sign covenants onthe neuer developments becaus. not only docs it oftcn not give thedeveloper what they want, which isn't thc case herc, but it docsn't achieve what the City uants. Now for cxample Town Centcr, or I'm sorry. Harket Sguare has signage that's guided as to type. I mean I think it,s all Iikethe backlit individual letters. The size of the sign area is regulated. The size of the sign area relativc to the t.nant and the prioritization ofthe tenants is regulated. l.lithin those gr.ridelines thcy have a lot dfIatitude. They can do different colored signs and that can lookattractive. Krauss: l.leII, it's not uniquerelunctant to rely on our past in Chanhassen to date and I'm real exper ience . Krauss: That they should identify they u,ant to identify a tenant, it the property, should be the the building itself and if major tenant. Conrad: signs? But your preference uroul,d probably not be for 10 foot high pylon Krauss: No, that's a quirk in the ordinance and I brouldn't defend that. That's wrong but that's the way it is. conrad: Do you have a vision? tlhat you just gave me uould be a vision. Shorter signs. ReaIIy to get rid of some of the clutter or the ugliness of the Sinclair sign or a gas station sign, we really don't want that in downtoun. Are there other characteristics to these signs? They Iiterally have to be Iit at night to be of significant use but is there anything else? And we're gelting off a little bit Brad. I'm just kind of curious. Krauss: tJe don't mind monument signs beins lit or being prominent but whenyou're monumenting something you're sticking it out by the right-of-way. It's 10 feet back from the strcet. It's a different kind of sign than a tenant sign. I was jusL talking to Sharmin and I was saying somewhatfacetiously what if this was a 5 story buildins or 4 story buildins? l",e'd had 3 sign bands. I mean the issue. Conrad: You like your identification signs to be kind of classy don't you? Krauss: Yes and often times they're landscaped. They're Iit. They'repretty expensive things for a developer to do. And frankly bre, at a staff level , ure like the Brooke's pylon sign. tle think that hrorks pretty well. It identifies the center and the primarily tenant. conrad: tlhen the City Council alloured the 5 bands on the front and the back, what was it that, you knou originally there xere only 5 bands to be allowed and then some of us decided that it Has appropriate to have the 5in the back. l.,hat ordinance were we conccrned with? Hhat guideline were ue concerned with r.lhen we granted the 5 on the back as weII as the 5. t^lasthere something? Was it common sense typc of issue or h,as therc a one signper building? tlas it a one siEn per street frontage type of dcal and the back side uasn't on the street frontage? Krauss! To be honest I don't knou. l.,e didn't support that. Conrad: f know you didn't. You and Joan were in thc aame camp. l.lhen, Idon't u,ant to belabor this and I'm sorry. You believed you had a sign agreement and Lherefore your inflexibility on this one. Is that the rieht?Basically them came in under signed in terms of r.rhat rould be permitted and maybe ue went and alloued some things that typica]1y our ordinance mightnot have granted but I'm just kind of curious about the fact that they Planning Commissior MeeLing March 20, 1991 - Page 20 Conrad: Tell me if you had )rour druthers, uhat r.rould you do with pylon signs? Planning Commission Meet i ng Harch 20, !997 - Page 21 could come back because they still have some liberties. They still mayhave some more tenants and r think that the future is a rittle bit unclearto me as to hor^r we control this one Pau.l . But your interpretation is onceyou have a sign package, that's it and no changes unless you 9o through aprocess right? Krauss: That's exactly the case. ToaPproving an architectural plan for athat that happens. us that's building. no differentl.le're there than you to make sur e conrad: so it's not Iike we had the perfect package before? rt uas thereand now we're going through the process? Okay. Just a few things.Personal opinion. I don't care if it's retail sales or .service sales.This countrv is reallv, vou know this is the same spiel r gave you the rasttime. Businesses need signage. They absolutely have to have it and Ithink we, vou know r think signage can improve the looks if it's done weIIand r just don't have anv problem at all making sure that there,s signage.r don't care if it's an office building or a retail center r.rhere you-buyproducts. I think signage has to be. The question in my mind is hoNtastefully it's done. I think our sign ordinance is the biggest pain because you can never, they're always 50 pages rong and theyire just a realtough thing to develoP standards for. There's aII different €ituations butanv*av ' r don't have a problem at aLl with the directory sign in the back.r think when vou take a Iook at it, common sense tells you that it's fineand to add a few inches here or there, there's just no problem. As r lookat the informational sign or the identification sign on the front, weprobablr approved something before. I wouldn't design it this way. Ithink this is low impact visibility the Hay they're doing this. This isnot what r would be doing but this is what their decision is as to hol^l todo it. And again, I think it's lor.l impact. Ehen you take a Iook at it, Idon't think it's, I just believe it's not doing, it's noL hurtingChanhassen's aesthetic appeal in downtoun by allowins it. Hy concern isthe future. l.1y concern is we don,t have standards really for nhat theseinformational or identification signs should be. They can be reallyprettv. Thev can be a corner stone. And r lookGd at this and rm not sureurhat ae can do where they need signage. I. just don,t know that He couldput up something that's really significant in that little arca that'sthere. so basicallv mv biggest concern riEht now is that whatever they putin aesthetically fits, and I don't know that right now. The quality ofuhat's been presented to me tonight doesn't tell me anythinS and so I don,thave a problem with the bands and the signage up there. Therc's a feruIittle problems here and therG but I don,t see that a biE deal but I docare about the quality of the signs that's golng in. Thcy havc to relate.I heard the words but I would have to make sure that staff. I don't urant agrotesque sign coming out of there. I really don,t and uhen you startplayins with illumination, I get a llttle bit concerned. So I don,t have aproblem with what's being requested tonight. I do have a problem B,ithmaking sure that it's aEsthetically pleasing and again rs I say, this isnot the sign the way I'd solve the problem but that's the h,ay they o!^,nerswan! to solve it. That's okay. The only other thing I think ue shoultalk about.is what if they comc back again. Arc hle going to go throug same thing? Do we have a package deal? The applicant says no. Ue dohave a package deal - l.,e may xant to come back. l.re may have additiona dht n rt I he Emmings: Can I in the front of sign? ask, do I hear you the buildins as it'saying you s ProPosed Planning Commission Meet i n9 ilarch 20, 7997 - Page 22 need and maybe we have to decide whether Ne this is it or we'II entertain other signage have a package deal tonight and changes . That's aI I I 've got . don't mind the idea as long as it's not if it's k nowI guess of an a slgn uglv conrad: Aesthetically pleasing. It should fit in with tuhat the signage elements that they've already got. It sounded Iike they have those. I'm not convinced. You know I haven't seen the hows. Hoh, they're going to do it here. I just really have to be comfortable that it's not a glaringly different appearing sign than ahat's there. That's my biggest concern. Conradr l^lould I want to see it? Somebody should. I don't care staff, Cily Council. I don't knor^r that I need to give mv. You everybody's got their own personal oPinion of uhat beautv is and I'd prefer somebody has to do it. Erhart: Paul you mentioned the word, you mentioned that we had a covenant with Town Square signage? Krauss: Yes. Erhart: Do we hal,e a covenant with the owners of this building? Krauss: tJeII, you know I don't think the terminology was as sophisticated then but essentially ),es. You had a site Plan Nith some sPecific signage requirements that were conditions of aPProval. I consider that the same as a covenant. Erhart: trhat's the, with Toun Square lrhat's the, in your mind uhat's the form of covenant there? Al-Jaff: ft was designed by Fred Hoisington. Brad Johnson: The difference betueen the tr.ro Projects is that this is not a PUD. ...PUD by definition. You can vary from the ordinances but you have to have a pack urhen it's all over uiLh. And the CBD because you don't need the PUD benefits in order to do a building on a small lot... Krauss: The question here though becomes one of isthe sign covenant that's recorded Eith the ProPerty accepted and has some Icgal sLanding. there a document ca I ledthat the City's Er hart: we have that with To!.rn Square? Krauss: There is a separate document ulibh Tor.rn Square, This one no. This one, when you approved the building you conditioned it on a sign plan approval . .You then approved that sign plan. It became a portion of the site plan at that point. I sort of regard the two as the same but administratively they're a IittIe different f guess. Emmings: So t"rould you t.tanL to see that before we acled on it? PIanning Harch 20 Commission Heet i ng 799t - Page 23 Erhart: If you were, ifLet's say it b,as a flatfeel , I sense that you 1., Has a new project today Krauss: That's correct. Erhart: t,h ich? Krauss: That we'd want this building, if this. r.ras going to come Piece of ground today and they came in andould waint to have a separate sign covenantor did I misinterpret. in. you if this a separate document that hras recorded that had somebetter legal standi n9. Erhart: Alright, and that's because you feel the ordinance is too vague? Krauss: Yeah. Erhart: or do you just think that,s the way signs ought to be managed? Krauss: ttell in my ourn personal opinion, this goes beyond r.rhat theordinance is telling us. Yes, I think it,s better for al] concerned tohave a sign package that's consistent architecturally with the building.That the City buys into. The devel.oper buys into that guides, you knourtenants wil) come in and ask for the stars but you Iay a covenant out andyou say this is all you can get. Erhart: Do other cities do it that uray? Krauss: Oh sure. Erhart: You've got a situation here whcre you've got a no win situation.Lle can talk about urhether you Iike signs or whether you don,! Iike signsbut that changes every minute. Every tenant the situation's going tochange. You're going to have the building owner Hanting t,o have anothersign for every tenant that wants the signs bigEer. Brad you mentionedthere's E l foot height limit on that sign. uhere is that? ff there's nocovenant, then uhy is there a 1 foot heieht limit on the band? Brad Johnson: t^le have a sign band that we crcated. Erharti So it's )zour own deal . So if you Eent to DuL e l !/z American Family sign up there, that has noLhing to do r.rith the Krauss: Except that the sign band isthat r^ras approved with the building. part of the architectural elevation foot city. Erhart: But b,hat I'm hearing here is that someone's arguingfor that day but they can come back anytime and change it to band because our ordinance allows it, Krauss: I think that's sort of r.Jhat you're hearing. that thata2foo.t Erhart: But that's not right or what? hras sign Planning Commission l,leet i ng Harch 20, 1991 - Page 24 Batzli: That's not the City's it xas PosiLion . granted once.Conrad: The City said Erhart: But what I'm sensing here is that, and maybe I'm misreading the Planning Commission, is that we're kind of 9oin9 along. And maybe I'm misreading the group here a little bit. It just bothers me that I guess that we're going to have to go through that. First of all what bothers meis that the appLicant expects to geL this through. I think you do and at Hhat poi nt do you stop - At r.Jhat poi nt do h,e stop havi ng meetings? At r.Jhat -point, you know BiIl Boyt talked about a 14 foot sign and everything, or 10or anything and somebody expected that b.le uere going to have a 10 foot sign and we spent a lot of money getting this into a document and hor.r long does that 9o on? I guess the other side of that is I gues6 the whole band looks - terrible today. tlhatever you guys came up with for an approach, didn't nork. I think Brad...says it doesn't uork. I guess I'd like to see ifue're right out on a limb, negotiate a covenant so r.re don't have to come back here Nith another meeting and spends hours and thousands of dollars of city money on another meeting and money from these guys and Iet's negotiate a package. Make a covenant that's going to end it. I personally think at this point, I think the band around Town Square looks better than the signs on thi s building. Erhart: The suggestion that I would have is,'in the first place I think it's kind of ridiculous to make the identification sign two purpose. If it's identification sisn, make it the title of the building and negotiate, make a continuous band around the buildins. I think it looks better if you -have logos up there in multiple colors and put some character into it. Ifyou're going t,o have signs, then Iet's put some character into iL a.nd negotiate a covenant to give them the signs they need. Keep some consistency so the identification sign is the identification sign. Not something else that they'11 come back and say nob, I rlant American Family on this side and another one on this side because ure don't have the band space and it's 9oin9 to 90 on and on and negotiate a covenant. Erad Johnson: The original plan on this Has to havc a band like you suggested u,ith as many tenants as r.re wanted. l.re came back and somebodysaid ueII you can onl.y have 5 tenants. l.le don't have this kind of problem b,ith i,larket Square because, over here at Town Square because if we expandto 7 tenants or 10 tenants, there's no limit as long as their sien is inthat band. And this particular one, bccause you }imited the number that can be in the band, somebody has limited it. I also think, and I told Bobthis, the band is a little narrow and wc made that decision by about afoot. And Lhat's because we put that burgandy thing in thcre. It's'aIitt]e narrow to accomplish urhat 9re have over there. It's an architecturalthi ns . Erhart: In summary, f guess I don't care about the 6 inches on thedirectory sign. I don't think it makes sense to have both an occupantadvertising sign and buildine identification sign on one sign and I think Brad Johnson: ...Tor.,,n Square and the lead tenant chose small signs, small, -you know what you see. Planning Commission Heet i ng l.larch 20, 1991 - Page 25 ue should, I'd Iike to see this 9o back and negotiate a covenant that gives them a whole fresh look at that band. l.lhere you allow them to have adequate signage up there for occupants. Conrad: tJe've got 6 different approaches here. Emmings: I don't know. I guess where I come down on this is, I don'tthink we're really got, I don't have any problem with sayins to Brad adeal's a deal. They made a deal uith the city here and I don,t care whatthe ordinance says, they made the deal and we certainly have every right tomake them stick r.liLh it if ure Eant to. Having that said, I also don,t haveany problem with them coming back and asking for modifications. I thinkthat's the uray the system's got to work a little bit. That doesn't mean uehave to give it to them. And I really, I don't think it's fair, I don'tIike the position that Brad took that because the ordinance allot"rs it that somehow we have to give it to him. That simply is notas f 'm concerned. I think uhat they r.tere alloured, ifthe beginning, r.,as certainly clarified last year when And so I think the),'ve been treated fairly and a deal'extent. The directory sign in the back, if they wanthave absolutely no problem with that. That,s fine. T ir we sit he that's wrong as far uras ambiguous in looked at this.a deal to some6 inches bigger , Isign in the front, our I agree uith Tim' ought to be a building identification sign and shouldn'thave anybody on it other than the name of the building. American FamiIy,if they're going to 9o in that buil.ding, is going to have to have a.signand I have no idea on how you're going to accomplish that. I don't haveany suggestions for you but I don't hlant to see it down on that sign. Idon't know what eLsb to say. Somehow American Family needs a siEn and you may r.rell have to come back and do h,hat Tim suggested and start a process torethink aII of the signs on the buildins and we'II have to look !t itagain. I don't think that the, I personally would not like to see.the American family Iogo up on the sign band but I might change my mind onthat. Those are my comments I guess. Do you have anything else you Hantto add back there? Bob Copeland: I have one thing that we're not here tonight because ofdesire to... The only reason ue're here is because the staff wouldn'tapprove, they didn't consider this minor cnough to approve it at theirIevel. In other words, r.re didn't u,ant to have this public hearing. Ueresisted it. . . Emmings: I don't have any probl.em with you coming in herc and asking foranything. I really don't. I think that's the uay we'rc set up to work soI don't resent or think there's anything wrong uith you coming in andasking for anything you Hant. Brad Johnson: probably the way to solve the problem is a little bit like b,hat you're saying, what Tim says and t.that evcrybody clse says. Get thesigns on the sign band and originally u,e didn't have a Iimit. ].le just knew we had a limited amount of space but not limit the number of tenents which, see Mar ket Square if you had gone in and said, okay. You wouldn't eventhink this uray but you can only have sign for 5 tenants. You r.,ou Id have Emmings: Okay. I agree wiLh everybody. Is there a motion? Planning Commission Heet i ng Harch 20, 1991 - Page 26 heard us scream and holler. l.le knebJ we were. going to have more. So if r.recould just Iimit ourselves to a sign area there, I don't think ure'd have haLf this discussion and that's originally hou we started out. At someperiod of time somebody said, r.re only want, r.,e trant to do the cookiecutter. There's 5 spots. That's what eJe h,ant and that's where h,e put them. tle possibly made a couple of mistakes in the design of the sign band because we Nent in and really made it narroq by paintins those little stripes on that you see on the, they're architectural stripes. t^le said that's r.rhere the signs are going. You don't see that on Town Square There is no point and ue can come back and talk about that and that misht be the solution. Because then it's our job to just kind of kGeP it balanced. Risht now it's so tight that if we 9o beyond that, it looks funny and everybody's designing their signs to fit into those Iittle sPots. I think you're right about that. Emmings: tJould you have any feeling about whether you'd h,,ant us to act on this or whether you'd want to table it while you trv and cork somet.hing ouL for us to look at agein? Erhart: t,e could move on the directory sign tonight and table the front. Ahrens: tlell the sign in front isn't goinE to go the way r 5e.'re not going to approve that it sounds like anyway... Emmings: I think you're right, Brad, I'm uaiting for you Brad Johnson: I'm talking to the owner of the building and he feels that r.re shou Id go ahead . Emmings: okay. Alrisht, does anyone else have any comments about this? If not, is there a motion? Erhart: tlell I'1I just move to say the Planning Commission recommends denial to the signage change I ouess. conrad: Do you want to approve the directory sign and deny? Erhart: tlell I knour the applicants Just asked us, uould you uant us to separate the tbro issues? Brad Johnson: tlell it Hould help. Bob Copeland: If you're not going to recommend approval for both, then recommend approval for one. Erhart: Okay. I'll move to approve the change to the directory sign as requested by the app I icant Emmings: And by the directory sign lre're talking about the sign bchind the buildinsu Okay. Alrishi ue've got a motion. Is there a second? Krauss: Ouestion. Did you Nant to includc in the motion yout guidance as to the suggestion about resubmitting something around thc sign band? Emmings: No. I think the Hinutes are clear on that. Is there a second? Conrad: Second. Emmings: Is there discussion on the motion? conrad: Basically what we ulould entertain. No. That's not part of themotion. Basica]Iy Tim is not saying anything about what ue do from here.Just the fact that we're looking at, we approve the directory sign and trehaven't 9.iven staff direction uith this motion. Erhart: [.le're only asking the 6 inches. 5 feet. That,s aII. conrad: And so it's up to us whether xould want,applicant to carry this through to City Council orto the particular identification sign. Emmings: Or how to change all of the signagedifferent kind of concept or uhatever. on the building to maybe a well it'd be up toto come back with the regard Conrad: You know just out of curiousity, are u,e open towe're sending some signals here and I think regardless ofare, I think the signals are real important. Are ete openthat ba nd? looki ng. You know wh€it are moti onsto looking at Emmings: Let's do this, Let's call a question onIet's discuss. Give them rdhatever direction people.if they haven't already done it in their comments.discussion on the motion? Let's calI the question. the motion and then f eel Ii ke they r.rant to ,Is there any other signs and I Erhart moved, conrad secondcd that the planning commission recommend toamend the site plan for the l{edical Arts Building to approv. thc dircctorysign as proposed. All votcd in favor exccpt Brian Batzli rho opposed andthe motion carried r.lith a votc of 6 to 1- Emmings: Okay, Brian tell us ulhy you're opposed. Batzli: I r.lould make it a condition that they don,t get any moreafter this. This is it and this i.s the fuII and final agrecmentuould also vote to approve the siEn they've got in front. Emmings: Okay. Now as far asyou uant to?any direction to the applicant. Ladd, do Erhart: Do you want to vote on the othcr one first? Emmings: t,hat? Conrad: That's not part of your motion. you didn't include that. Planning Commission Meeti ng l.larch 20, 1991 - Page 27 Erhart: Do you want to vote on the front sign first? Before we givedirection to the applicant so ue know where the vote is. Planning Commission l''leet i n9 Harch 20, 1991 - Page 28 ELlson: You can only have one motion. Emmi ngs: No . l.lhat I understand h,e've done here , approved the sign on the back of the property and we've denied r^rha! they're asked f or . just to r ecap . [.Je ' ve that's all . otherwise Erhart: okay. I thought specifically tde u,ere going to take a vote on the denial of the rest of it so it uas clear in the l'linutes. Emmings: No. That's done r.rith t.lhat we did, as far as I'm concerned. Now is there any direction? I think Ladd wants to ask if there's sentiment uP here if people would Look at. conrad: Changing the sign band. Yeah. But Tim you obviouslv feel it's. Erhart r You've got mine. Emmi ngs: tjould you Ladd? Conrad: Yeah. Emmings: Yeah, I would too, Annette? I don't know. Haybe it'.s not to 5 or do we feel open t6 multi Brad Johnson: The tenants do. Conrad: And the tenants aren't really going to 9o out and Bay oh boy, let 's change our signage. Brad Johnson: tle could come back uith signage... I've got the middle Ieft. There is no sign there. If we come back and handle that and then as u,e add the other ones. They were limited to 5 total tenants on the front and we've got a problem. Let us kind of handle that area, ue're okay. conrad: The question really isthat bis of a deal. Do we feel as long as it's designed well? here, and comm i tted Brad Johnson: l'1y point is I think we hlcre e little bit overly rigid on how I Iistened to you and look !t ToHn Square and I keeP saying what's the difference. L,e h,ere very rigidly dcfined on our oh,n, not by you, on uhcre ure could put the band. It doesn't look... Erhart: I thought Steve that you wanted to vote on both the'front and the rear and then give. If that gets denied, then give our opinion to the appl icant EIIson: If it Nas tastefully and aethetically done h,elI. IL's hard to sav across the board. It could come in 10 feet tall and then you said, nour you said the sign. . Conrad: I don't realistically you're not Eoing to change what you:ve got up there. You've got a lot of money into your signage riEht nou don't you? You're not going to go out in the next. Planning Harch 20 Commission Meeling 1 991 - Page 29 Ahrens: f guess I have troubleue have very little control overreason Goldstar looks the way it eJanted it to look is because it They got a sign and they enteredthe sign the uay it is and they opening up the band issue. f! seems to methat anyway. Brad's saying that thedoes, which is not the way we would haveslipped through the cracks of the lease.into an agreement with the tenant to have SoL i t that r.ray . Brad Johnson: One of theother signs are white. reasons it doesn't look very good is all the Emmings: RiSht. Ahrens: tiel I yeah . t^thatever the problem is. uror k .Brad Johnson: It just didn't Ahrens: tlell r.,hat I'm saying is how you got to the problem.the problem because everything slipped through the cracks.He had control over the method. You got toIt's not like Emmi ngs: That's fair. Conrad: t^le love it don't we lrhen it gets arbitrary like this. Emmings: No, but I think this is fair. They talk about bringing inanother building and we're getting a ]ot of practical experience on howthat other building's going to look. grad says it,s coming back with a lotof signage and I think we're going to be real fussy. If they get thatbuilding, there's going to be a lot of fussiness with signs anJ we'rl havelparned a lot from this. I don't want to get into the specifics. Ahrens: I don't urant to talk about that either but h,hat my point is isthat we're talking about having control over what it's going to loo likeover urhether it's going to look nice or bad according to whitever standardsu,e use but do we reallv have any contror if this is something that thetenant decides anyway in a lease? Conrad: It's real interesting- !^le're getting into some aestheticjudgments here but just out of. Emmings: ]^tell we could, I suppose, Nhen we limited them to 5could have said they'II all be the same color. There r.till bemean there are whole bunch of things we could have said. sign bands no Iogos. h,e I Ahrens: I don't think r.re need to do that- I think they may nced to beapproved by the staff or something. Emmings: Risht, but there are ways you c;uld limit that if you ,u"na.O ao. Ahrens: Oh sure. Sure. Are we looking for multi-colored signage on this buildinS?that. I'm just 9oin9 to tell you another personal... Conrad: hear i ng I'm Planning March 20 Commission Heeti ng L99l - Page 30 conrad: Yeah, I guess Tim. It's probably Tim. Erhart: I'm color bIind. conrad: Tim's whispering in my ear and I'm assuming that he's looking for everybody. The signage that is there is really lor.l imPact right now folks. It really is. tjhen you get white on a burgandy at a foot hieh, hre're not talking about breaking anybody's eyeballs in terms of gaudiness. You mav be reacting to, I'm not sure what everybod)"s reacting to aesthetically here but again, so I just don't want to send a signal that says we want flashy. I think signage on this kind of buildins should be verv Practical . It should identify who's there but I just don't feel it should be literallv -the backlit, multi-colored logoish that we put on a retail store because that stuff can be very attractive on a retail center. I don't know that it fits on this particular. I knou it doesn't fit on this Particular buildins -so again, jus! from my personal standPoint, I don't uant the flashy stuff and I think they've got practical si.gns that work really weII to help people identify uhere services are. They're not going to stoP you in your tracks. I don't mind what we really have here other than the gold color but again Ahrens: I think we need some design standards. tle obviously don't have any. tJe have 7 people up here with different oPinions. Conrad: You're right. tle'd all be in a different boat. f igure it out Joan, r,re'd aII be dif f erent. If ure were to Richard t^Jing: My name is Richard tling and I'm going to sPeak as a resident. Joan has commented on the gaterday aPPearance of our city. You come in on TH 1o1 and we go through the Arnoco station and ue 9o through a Valvoline oil change. Norl even though it's going to be the best d€signed place uhich I think we can take pride in. And as we come into Chanhassen' both the Mayor has commented on the gateHav affect of our city. The biggest buildins and the largest building, the most significant building in our gateuJay is the building we're discussing here and I'm e6ing to just urge you to be very conservative and if in doubt, to Grr on the side of being conservative because that is a gatcu,a)', building. I uould like to see it as a professional buildine. I think I uould like to see it classv. I don't b,ant to see a mass of color - That's a classy buildine right now and as I'm ]ooking at these plans, I think there's a trend to gct away from that classiness. So if in doub!' my personal feelings are that you err, if you have to make a decision, err on a conservative side and let's worry about this in the future. I would have a real hard time dressing thet building up uith signs. That is a gateway building. That is a naior impact visually coming into the city and I think ue have to trcat that with special care. It's a very unique locatioh. Emmings: Alrisht. Unless somebody's really burning to make more comments on this, let's have an end to it. Does anyone else want to say anything? Emmings: t"JeI I Tim . Planning Commission Meet i ng t'larch 2O, f99L - Page 31 Conrad: Ah yeah. Signage is just so much fun. This is really great. Itrould like to, and I speak for myself. I don't knou Steve where you'regoing. If there's a motion coming here.or if we're just going to let it sobut I think as we look at that band, the challenge should be for, you knowas we open, as ..re may give more fl.exibility to that band, I'd sure like tosee a better sign for the uhole building. In other uords, uhat ue ueretalking about identification sign, I think that's soins to make thebuilding seem that much more significant. If ue talk about it, uelIpersonally I'd Like to see that identification sign as a significant. goodlooking sign versus putting advertising messages on it. Emmings: I agree. Okay. Brad Johnson: Can I ask one quesLion? Emmi ngs: Yeah. Brad Johnson: That's my ou,n. The owner doesn't agree with it. If we uereto kind of dress up the band. Try to figure out some flexibility that Hedon't have, would you guys go along uith that? Is that what I hear yousaying? As ]ong as we come with some consistency and it k6eps the buildinglooking o kay? Emmings: Yea h .uith the staff I think that's whaton Lhat . l.le 're not i n . . .have Bob do that. I think that's what we're saying.the bus i ness But you'Il have to uorkof designing bands. Brad Johnson: Emmings: Yeah.I hear too. APPROV AL OF HINUTES:Chairman Emmi ngs noted the tlinutes ofas presented.the Planni ng Commission meeti ng OPEN DISCUSSION: dated April 6, L99L PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPI{ENT ORDINANCE AIIENDI{ENTS/DTSCUSSION OF PUD'S AND PROPOSED PUD ORDINANCE BY JOHN SHARDLOII OF DAHLGREN. SHARDLOII AND UBAN AND TERRY FORBORD OF LUNDGREN BROTHERS CONSTRUCTION. Paul Krauss geve a short presentation on the background of the item andthen introduced John Shardlow and Terry Forbord who cach gave slidepresentations on proposed amendments to the Planned Unit Oevelopment Ordi nance . Emmings: I don't know if this is to6 obvious a question. itaybc I'm just not getting it but in a lot of ways it would acem to me to be simpler for a developer to just make one of those good.old fashion subdivisions uhere youput in blocks of lots. tlhaL's in it for a developer? t,lhy are the PUD'sdesireable for a develoPer? Is it basically the flcxibilitv so they're not confronted with rieid standards or that thcy can make a higher quality development that nill be better in the marketplace? What's the advantagefor the developer? EHANHISSEN rC DATE: CC DATE: CASE #: By: 3/2o/eL 4/8/et 98-17 site PlanA1-Jaff/v STAFF REPORT Fz o =L(L { E LrJF v, Amendnent to the Signage as part of the Site Plan Review Approval for an Identification Sign and a Directory Sign Northwest corner of creat Plains Boulevard and west 78thstreet Intersection PROPOSAL: LOCATION: APPLICANT:Bob copeland 7625 Uetro BIvd., Suite 155 Edina, l{N 55435 PRESENT ZONING: ACREAGE: DENSTTY: ANACENT ZONING AND I,AND USE: CBD, Central Business District N - PUD, S - CBD, E - CBD, W - CBD, I{eritage Park Apartnents connercial cornrnercial conmerc ia1 WATER AND SEWER:Available to the site. PHYSICAL CHARACTER. :The site contains the existing Medical ArtsBuilding and is a fairly 1evel site. 2OOO I.AND USE PIAN: JITY.OF Corunercial Medical Arts Site Plan Signage Anendnentllarch 20, 1991 Page 2 BACKGROUN D/SI'M},IARY ol Uay 3, 1989, the City Council approved tlre preLininary plat andsite p1an. reviev/ for the uedicar-Arts buildiig lattactirndnl #r1.Included in the site plan revj.ew was a final iacia, signage andglllrnal lighting based on the plans stanped received iprif ra,1989. .The-sign.plan was requi.red since the existing sign o-rdinanc"did. not adequately provide for this builating. fir ad-dition, theproject was developed with HRA assistance aid it nay Ltreieior",have been considered to be reasonable for the city to eixpecC a rrighstandard of design. on },lay 30, 1990, the city Council approved an amendnent to thesignage pran for the rrredical arts guirhing to alrow a totar of 10wall signs on the building, 5 on the north elevation and 5 to thesouth el,evation. This amendnent was requested after staff found 2sets of plans dated April 14, 1989 and ipril 18, 1989. The 2 setscontained rnany differences as far as Jignage'pIan is concernea(Attachnent #2). There. are 2 proposed signs currently being reviewed. The firstsi.gn is one free standing identification sign, lrith an area of 20sqruare feet to be l0cated at the southwest ctrner of the building.The sign s/as proposed to be 3r6x in height. tne appiicant isrequesting that the area be increased to 2d square fee€,^ the rridthbe increased fron 10 feet to 1416r' and the nain board to contain zsigns instead of one. The second sign is a directory =iqr, -to l"located on the back side of the buirding. rhe fiee itanaingdirectory sign was proposed to be 4retr higli and 3rel across, Theapplicant is requesting the height be- increased to i feet(Attachnent #3). Approxirnately 2 nonths ago, I!tr. Brad Johnson net hrith staff anddiscussed the signage plans that were subnitted. rar. ionrr.ortindicated that there hid been a discussion between it.-iorr..Planning Di.rector, Steve [anson, and hirnself regarding the sitnage.staff found two sets of prans in the fire. one set wis dated-apiit14, 1989 and one dated April X8, 1989. The only difference betweenthe. two plans is the size of the sign. The April 14th planindicated a sign siz-e-. of 1or x 3t6n,;hi1e the aprif ieih if."indicated a 20r x 316, sign. Mr. Joh;son believes'tfrat ine-piansthat were subnitted on April 18, 1989, are the plans that rrereapproved by the Council. There is no nention whatsoever,throughout any of the reports, nor the nLnutes of Council orPranning cornmisslon of the revised signage p).ans. The r.ast reportthat discussed the signage was submittea Uiy 3, 1989, to the aitycouncil. one of the reconrnendations of approvai was that trre city Medical Arts Site Plan Signage Anendnent Uarch 20, 1991 Page 3 Council approve the revised site plan and final facia signage andexterior liqhting based on plans stanped received April 14, 1989. on February 5, 1991, the appticant subnitted a revisedidentification sign. The sign renained at 3.6 feet in height butthe width of the sign increased to 141 feet fron 10 feet. The second revision is that it is no longer an identification sign forthe building but rather identifies the'building on one-half and hastenant signage on the second half of the sign. The directory signnaintained the 3.5 foot sign width but the height of the sign increased from 4.6 feet to 5 feet. Staff originally reviewed the signage plan for the lledical ArtsBuilding, as a package and did not hold the project to a strictinterpretation of the sign ordinance. The ordinance does notallow low profile identification signs in the Central BusinessDistrict. Staff made j.ts reconnendation for the signage plan forthe building by keeping the design of the' building in nind and recornmending approval of a signage plan that would be consistentwith the city's expectations of its downtor{rn. A buildingtsidentification sign should not contain another tenantrs sign on the same board. This building has nore than sufficient waIl rnounted signage for tenants where this sort of identiflcation function can be accommodated. Another issue which staff took into consideration was that when the City Council approved the uall business signageplan arnendrnent on llay 30, 1990, one of the conditions of approval $ras that tvro businesses nay not share the sane band. Staff istreating the identification sign with the sane type ofconsideration to give the building signage a unified look. Staff nust also point out that at the June 4, L99O, City Councilrneeting, Councilnan Workman asked the applicant, I'If you have a dernand for nore than 10 signs, are you going to be putting noresigns up?tt The applicant replied, trNo, welre quite comfortable. Wer11 have 5 rnajor tenants.rr (Refer to notation on page 37 of theJune 4, 1990, city council rninutes. ) Staff believes that theoriginal plans that were subnitted on Aprii 14, 1989, and as anended Last year, provide an adequate and possibly generous signpackage. I{e are therefore reluctant to recornrnend approval offurther increases in signage and are recoramending that the proposed arnendnents be rejected. The applicant would thus be alloued toconstruct the identification sign ninus the tenant board and thedirectory sign, in conforoance with previously approved ptans.. Medical Arts Site Plan Signage Amendment March 20, 1991 Page 4 RECOMIi'ENDATTON staff recommends that the pLanning conmission adopt the fotrowingmotion : nrhe -Planning commission recoDmends deniar of the site plan reviewamendment to amend the signage pran for the Medicar ArtiBuildin;.;i ATTACHMENTS 1 2 3 4 6 7 6 Merno frora Steve Hanson dated Uay 3, 1989.Staff report and city Council ninutes dated Irray 30, 1990.Reduced signage pLan dated April 14, 1989.Reduced signage plan dated ApriL 18, 1989.Approved Location of.signage as part of site plan review.Proposed directory sign. Proposed identification sign.City Council minutes dated June 4, 1990. tr1-CITY OF EHINH[SSEN UEUORANDUU TO: Don Ashrolth, SROlt: Steve Eanson, DAIE: Hay 3r f989 SUBJ: 690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.o. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 City Hanager Planning Director Tbe Planning Courmission at its April 19, 1989 neeting approveil tbe preliminary plat for. the north Eide parking 1ot subject to the plans stampedl 'Received April 14, 1989'. Regardling the site plan approval , the Planning Conmission recom- mended approval of the revisedl Eite plan anil final faciar signage antl exteiior lighting based on plans staurpedl rReceivetl April ltl ,. 1989' subject to the following condlitions: No business nay have Eole than one wall sign. No unpaiDted aluminun shall be alloued on the extelior. Traffic engineering 6hou1d revien eideralk location on the east portion of the parking lot for srfety with the Posslbi-lity of realigning the sidleiralk and addling stop 6igns. Prelininary Plat Approval and site Plan Review of Final Facia, Signage, Exterior Builtling Lighting and Revised Siilewalk anit Parking Layout Configuration for chanhassen Professional Bui ldli ng t n dt 9tI 1. 2. 3. Ihe Planning Connission discueslon Dn the aite plan cen three issues. the fir6t of those rag the eidewalk exte Eeritage Park Apartmenta across'tb€ parking lot ln theof the clock to$er. Generallyr;the Comtiagion felt thational signage or tlefinition of thls pedestrian crosgin the parking area shoulal be addedl. ConcerD i3 that 8ma1 l. Revien the eest cntrance af eccegs to the north parking lot. This notion uas approved on a 4 to 3 vote. ereil on ding frout i rection atttli- throughchlldren using the crossl'alk roultl not be vlsibte due to cars parked oneither side of the crosswalk. They reguestedl that this be lookeilat closer by traffic engineering. Therefore, I have contactedl BRW anil reguested that they be in attendance .t the Council &eeting on tlay 22, L989 to ldldress this Particular iesue. The second item of concern deals with the entrance and the adjusted parking configuration by the Riviera. There was a pre- ference expressed for the access as it comes in to al1ow a lightturn into the first bay of parking along the professional building rather than having to go all the way to the back of the parking lot to get into that parking. Ihe ailjusted configuration was arrived at after neeting with the Kruegers, owners ofRiviera. A coneeting is att should be notein Phase II anparking config The thiril iss same concern Commission pr uest of Great py of acheild thail theurati uet heh evi o Pla a memo from Fred Hoisington sunnarizinto this lremorandum (Attachnent 16). It this particular adjustnent to the par approval. at this tine wouldl be for the on for Phase I. hat $as raised by Conmissioner Batzl ad raisetl when this iten ras beforeus1y. Ihat issue is the need for thins Boulevard on West 78th Street. hethis ing is i was the the Planning e accessEis f eeJ.ings Dg it to f Lovr at the t ot k are that this access should be closed and that r11owi remain in this vicinity only complicates the trafficintersection by the clock to$er. Recommendation Staff recommends that the City Council approve the preliminaryplat for the north side parking 1ot based on plans stamped 'Receiveil April 14, 1.989". Further, staff reconmenils that theCity Council approve the revised site plan and flnal facia, signage and exterior lighting based on plans s tanpedl rReceivetl April 14, 1989" subject to the conditions of the Planning Commission. Attachrlents ApriJ. 19r 1989 Planning Conrmission ninutes.Prelininary plat for the north side parking 1ot. Revised parking 1ot layout.Final facia and signage plans.April 19r 1989 staff report. Memo from Fred Boisington dateA Hay 8, 1989. 1 I 3 1 5 5 Don Ashworth Irlay 3r 1989 Page 2 TY OF EHANHIESEN n-Lu'cn-)L. -ATE: Uay 5, \99O V CC DATE: Uay 30, 1990 CASE #: 90- Sign STAFF REPORT Fz oJLL ( B UJh U' PRoPosAL: 1. sign ProPosal for Chanhassen Professional Building 2. Site Plan Anenctment rner of Great Plains and West 7{+r.,., FtI€etI,OCATION: a/tr' !; ti Jl.:: B:.:.u' APPLICANT: BTad JOhNSON Lotus Realty Box 730 Chanhassen, l{N 55317 a.z 5:i!a!::.: i. Northwest co Intersection p-v:? PRESENT ZONING: ACREAGE: cBD, central Business District DENSITY: ANACENT ZONING AND I,AND USE:N - PUD, S . CBD, E - CBD, W - CBD, Heritag6 Apartuents coEnercial connercial coDnercial I,IATER A}ID SEWER: PHYSICAL C}IAR'ACTER. : Available Property fs level and developed. 2OOO INND USE PI..AN:Conmercial l{edical Arts Cent.rr Sign Request llay 2, L99O Page 2 BACKGROIJND On l{ay 22, 1989, the City Council approved the prelininary plat andsite plan ?pproval for the MedicaL arts Suitaing (Attachn;nt #f).The site plan review was approved rrith the revised slte plan andfinal . facia, signage and external lighting based on planJ EtanpediReceived April 14, 1989r. one of the co;ditions of- approval irast|?i lg business 4ay have more than one uall sign as il- regulateduith the Sign ordinance. The approved final ficla lnclua6a tivebacklit sign bands, 3 on the south and 2 on the north side of thebuilding (AttachDent t2). ANALYSIS The applicant is requesting approval. to al1ou tenants in theChanhassen Professional Building nore than one wall sign. Theappricants are not requesting any additional sign bands befond whatwas approved with the original plan but are requesting €hat z otthe sign bands be used for 1 occupant. The uedi-cal Arti center isoccupying the easterly portion of the chanhassen professionarBuilding. .They are reguestlng a certificate of occupancy onFriday, April 2ztb, and nill be opening for business ori ioniday,April 30th. The tenants are reguesting trrat they be alrowed to usethe- sign band on both the sou€h and north sidE of the buifding.Technically_,- the sign ordinance allovs an occupant of the buildiigonly one uaII sign per street frontage. The subJect eite has onl!one- stree.t frontage along West ZSth Streetr. but access to thebuilding is prinariry fron the north side wherl the parrin! aiea islocated. Staff ori.ginally ^uas reguiring t}re app).icant to go through avariance to the sign ordinance -and an iiendnent to €he site -plan for the chanhassen professional Building. In Deeting uith theapplicant, it was found that the applicant uas only reqriestlng theabi).ity-!9 rl=e the.approved sign binils as designed Uyitre tenant.since ldditional signage uas nbt requested, sfaff ii contortaurevith allowing tenants of the building to use the nuDber of approvedsign bands on both the north and iouth slde for ttreii ri'sinessidentification. The intent of the ordl.nance requirinq businessoccupants. to not have uore than one vall slgn per-streei frontagewas to linit the anourt of slgnaEe on Uultaings. Again, sin6eadditional s-ignagg wilL not resuit by the applicant;s rlquest,Etaff is confortable uith ?I]-oiring tlen to uEe tio of the fiv6 slgirb-ands for -one occupant. staff Dade it clear to the appllcant thitthis would- be -onIy allowed ulth the understanding thit additionar.wall sign bands would not be perDltted Ln the fiiture should theyaIlolr both sides of the slgn bands to used by the larger occupantiand not have ualI aigns left for snaller tenints who ient spate ata later date. The applicant agreed to this condition. In sunnary, appl.icant is staff feela that shat has been propoeed by theconsistent uith the zonlng ordinan6e ind site- plan lledical Arts center' Sign Request Uay 2, 1990 Page 3 Nunber of Sion Bands The site plan that uas approved by the Planning Coumission and Citycouncil uas the plan dated April 14, 1989. The6e plans show 3 sign bands on the south side of the building and 2 sign bands on the north side of the builiting. Ihe Planning file aIEo contains plans dated April 18, 1989, and these plans alrou 5 sign bands on the south side and 5 sign bands on the north Blde of the bul1ding. The Aprj.L 14, 1989, plan is the one tbat sas officlally approveil by the Planning Connission and city Council and is 6tar0ped the xofficial copy,t. In discussions with the appllcant, it becane apparent that they uere under the iupression that they had approval for 5 sign bands on both the north and 6outh sides of the building. staff reviewedthe reports going to the Planning Counission and council and all the corresponding uinutes. The report that rras presented to the Planning Conrnission by steve Hanson referred to the Aprl1 14, 1989, plans as did the City Council report. There is no nention in anyof the reports or other information in the file of the site plan being approved for the 5 Elgns on both the north and south sides. what has been a coDmon occurrence with the developnent dormtor.rn, such as eith the hotel site, ls that plans are Eubloltted after approval that have changes within then that have not been brougltto staffrs attention. The applicant believes that Etaff uas alrareof the change for 5 sign bands on both sides of the building andthat the Planning Conmission and or City Council did approve ofthis change. Again, staff cannot finil any Dention where it was brought up that the nuEber of sign bands changed from a total of 5to a total of 10. In the April 19, 1990, Planning CoDnission rninutes, there is sone nentlon of the nunber of sign bands needingto be discussed but this was not done. The applicant (Arvid Ellness) Dentioned plans Eubnitted on Friday which uas Aprll 14, 1989. obviously, the applicant feeLs that the 10 61gn bands were approved and that is uhat they wieh to install lnto the facade of thebuilding. Staff feels that the 5 slgn facade that had been approved is what shoul.d be raintained. In revlewlng elevatlons of both pl.ans, staff feels that the 3 elgm bands on the aouth and the2 on the north slde are Dore appropriate for an office bulIding. The eLevation showing 5 sign bands on both the north and south aideuhich provides slgnage alDost directly across the total facade ofthe building is Dore appropriate for a shopplng naII but not for anofflce bulldlng. PIANNING COM}'IISSTON ACTION Ihe Planning Conraission, on a vote of 4 to 3, approved 5 signs onthe north side and 5 signs on the south eide of the bulldlng, fora total of 1O signs for the Chanhassen Uedical Center uith the liledical Arts Cent-r Sign Request ltay 2, 1990 Page 4 condition that there ban. be no Dore than one business nane per sign STAFF UPDATE - ltay 25, 1990 The applicant has subnitted docurentation vbich shows that anendedplans were subEitted to staff uhlch had shorm 5 waJ.I signs on boththe north and south side of the bullding (Attachnent #B). Duringthe Planning Counission neetlng, Ladd Conrad (Chairnanj recalledapproving 5 uall signs on both the north and south side.Therefore, it appears the arnended plans nay have been rhat rrasapproved by the Planning Conoission and City Council. Since the ninutes and staff report do not speciflcally address theplan-with 5 _w?ll signs on the Couth and north side of i,he buildling,staff wanted the Planning connission and city council to understandr{rhat lras being proposed and to verify this is vhat vasland isapproved. RECOI.IMENDATION The city- council must decide rrhether or not the 3 sign bands on the -south and th: 2-signs bands on the north should be the nunber of signbands naintained. shou-ld the city council feel that they uourd pref6rto have the 5 sign bands on both the north and south siEes, their they :!""19 fomally approve the anended plan as shown on plans dated Aprii18, 1989. ATTACHMENTS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Staff report dated April. 19, 1989.Planning conmission Einutes dated April 19, 1989.Ileno fron Steve Hanson dated Uay 3, 1989.City CounciL uinutes dated llay 22, te}9. Reduced copies of site plan dated April 1/t, 1989.Reduced copies of site plan dated Aprl1 19, 1989.Planning Corurission minutes dated uly 2, 1990.L€tter fron Anid Elness Architects dated Uay 4, 1990. EHAI\IHISEEI,I Prelininary plat Applova1 Site Plan Review of Final FaciBuilding Lighting and nevisedtLayout Configuration :ITY OF . DAIE: C.C. DATE: CASE NO: 89 Prepared by: April I9, 1989 tlay 8, 1989 Banson/v ignage and Exterioresalk and parking PROPOSA.Ls A)I t_ t- L as sidFz C) =(LL B) TOCATION: APPLICANT: Lotus Realtyp.O. Box 100 Chanhassen, MN 55317 L ls llJt U) PRESENT ZONTNG: ACREAGE: DENSIIY: ADJACENT ZONING AND IAND USE: CBD, Central Business District x- s- E- w- R-12; proposed Eeritage part Apartments C8D; CBD; CBD; connercial uge comnerclal uae connerclal uge WATER AND SEIIER:Itunlcipal serviceg are avallable PEYSfCAL CEARAC.!Site is level 2OOO LA}ID USB PI.IN:Couunercl.al STAFF REPORT North of t{est ?8th Street and East of ago West ZgthS tree t . North Sidle Parking LotApril 19, J.989 Page 2 The site plan has beenperty on the west end n done in order to improvRestaurant. In adlditio on the east end of ttreIt was felt the best althe apartment bu i ldingclock tower. Ihen also The site plan for this area, which is the location of the ChanhasseD Professional Bui.lfing was approveil by the City Councilat the February 2?. L989, meeting. That approval eas subject tothe following conditions s l. Platting the area. 2. Submittal of final facia, signage and exterior buildinglighting for Planning Connission approval prior to issianceof building pernits. 3. Traffic engineering shou}d review siderralk location on theeast portion of the parking 1ot for safety, with the possibi-lity-of realigning the sidewalk and adding atop signs orspeeil bunps to naximize accessibility. 4. Direct staff to have the consultants review the intersectionto see if there is any possible alternatives and if possiblehave a noilif ieil alternative by March I3th. Since that time lhe plat has been prepareit forplat creates two building sites arounil t{est 78toutlots generally to the rear of those two builparking areas that ei11 serve these buildings. amendetl to modify the location on the pro-ear the Riviera. These amendments werL the hS dab P!operty. rhetreet anille lots for the the parking situation for the Rivierathe sidewalk locations were evaluatedoposeil Chanhassen Professional Building.rnative was to allgn the sideralk fron-a generally direct alignnent with thepedlestrian llnk ras made fron that areaover to Colonial Center. In evaluating neans for naking thepedlestrian crossings through the parking area visible, it ,asdetermineil the best solution was Eo put in large crosi ralkpainteal areas lineil up- with- landscaped feature; between parking6talls. It was felt that the use of _speedl bumpe in the larkinilot rould not improve the situltion for these iross acceis uaysanil that stop signs would be lnappropriate ln theEe locations.Peilestrian signs could be adliledl to enphasize where the crossnalks are. lhe City Councll asked staff to evaluate the rcceB8 at the lnter-Eection of West 78th Street andl Great plains Boulevard. Inlooking at this, no othe! alternatives rere faeniitiia - other thanelininating. this partlcular access. Ihis access rrs a negotiateqitem uith the property owners in the area !s part of the 5verall'redevelopment of this entire area. The Eneineelinc DeDartnenthas indicated this access, while not the nost idteai siiuationr isacceptable fron an operational standlpoiDt. e Ill Prtein a North April Page 3 side Parking Lotr9, 1989 The applicants have sumitted facia, signage and lighting f Posing one be locatedl or Planning Commifree stancling idat the southrrestwill be 316'in h f theith os. T nce f ted o ssion review. The apentification 6ign of exterior buildlingplicants arepro- 20 square feet to ng in Phase I.ide a free igh and 3 | 5' gn bands are p!o- quare feet inof the same aize nage proposedthat no occupant prel ini naryplans stanpedl This s ign stanaling alacross. O posetl over corne! oeight. O pr oposed size. on the south elevation another siis shorn in the middle of the buildling. e e e k a s bui lcti back E fthnthtob bac ese building rances th irectory sign is n the face of the three of the ent tlr6" hlit sire36s n banfl The sig conplies rrith the zoning requilenents, Providledlnay have nore than one wa}1 sign. The plans note only one light to be located in the Patio area. No other exterior lighting is proposed on the exterior of thebuiltling. The othe! site lighting is part of the parking 1ot inprovenents being done by the city. Ihe proposed facia o shakertown sidingr w teh entrance feature Previously the entra colors have been 1is Ihe Planning Commission reconmends approvalplat for the North Side Parking Lot subject 'Receivedl April 1{, 1989'. building is to be noodlap anil rnanental grille sork and railings on he roof is to be asphalt shingles. eatures were goint to be brick. No n the plans. The door ancl Pindow naterials are not noted. These thoulil not be aluninum finlsh. RECOI,IMENDAIION Planning staff recornmends lhe Planning CoEtnission adopt thefolloring uotion: the the ofto plan andl final facia, signage anal exterior lighting basedl on plans stamped 'Receivedl April 14, 1989' aubject to the following conalitions: Ihe Planning Cornmission leconmends approval of the revisedl site l. llo buBiness nay bave Dore than one sall aign. 2. llo unpaintetl aluminum ahall be alloredl on the Gxterior. 3. Pedlestrian 6lgns be ailded to croes ralka ln parklng lot. ATTACHUENTS I 2 3 4 Preliminary plat. Site plan for nolth side parking lot. Site plan for Phase I Chan Professional Buildling. Elevations for Phase I chan Professional Buildting. Planning Commission l,leet i ng April 19, 1989 - Page 29 sotnething like this as a possible pUD? that yes, thatrs a pUD? EIl, son 3 I can Conrad: Steve, Anything that irould make you think tha tI Batzli: I think if they rrere to...Lot 1{ and get Bome nore 6pen areauay and decrease the density a !.ittle... I think parklngra a ploblem.rike that they are actuarly saving all the trees eien th5ugh ii,s on aslope . . . plcture it... can you get into a rituation rhere you rould paaa ttrls? 've heard that we havenr t ruled the pUD out. Thereo the ploperty that I think you could persuade me on.in cases look really great to rne. f c-ould go rlth auess what werre saying, the consensus rould-be, other lleaalla! Ird like to Bee the portion... conrad: I think that neans ue ahould tabre it and see if ctty staff canouddre through some of the connents that ee Daale. nork rith you andt aeeif you can come back with us rith a revleed slte pran. lnothcr conceptpl!n that tnight encour.ge ua. Bltzli noved, vfirdernuth secondea! that the plrnnlng conElsslon tablelction on PUD 189-1 Concept andl Development plan tor Oak Vier Helghts sothey can uork with city strff. All voted Ln favor .Dd the ootl on-carr ieit . Conrad: I guess are aome amenitie ?he numbers in ce PUD. Therefore, than Dave. PUBLIC HEARING: NORTH SIDE PARKING LOT ON PROPERTY ZONED CBD AND LOCATED JUST EIST OF I8gNEST 78TH STREET, CITY OF CHANHASSEN: .I. PRELII.IINARY PLAT APPROVAL.B. SI?E PLAN REVIEW. youstrtaI9 steve llanson presented the staff report on this iten. tuings: yes. conrad: And those are...what you di.scussed? fuings: Yes they are. Conraal: ...you donrt think the developer could never actrieve? Erunings: r' would llke to Eee them Dove tbis project... rf Lot l{ doesn,thave-any development. rf re lower some densily.- r donrt knoe ?hat can benoved... Tbe onry thing that 8ti1l. Eticks a little bit rith ne is therize of the apartment building. rrn not Eure you can put that big of anrpartment building on there and stirl 6.tisfy Ene... i ttrint r courd beconvinced Brad J here fif youin the Tben P Part o PLanning Commission l,leet i ng lpril 19, 1989 - Page 2I Chairaan Conrad called the public hearing to order. address, the signage issue I guess I sant to talk rbout too. Th are kind of... We need the signs perEitteal by tbe ordinance...tit. Itrs that ban, rrhat do you call it. If you look at 3onethi Gelco. That sign. That kindl of sign that serve got a dark oPagu rnd the letters are cut into that opague. lrvid can address faci gives us the opportun i trbat the signage said.. rays re could do it onthat it sas because Parrell controlled. . . col or soure backing. Then ititrs aort of designed a ohnson: I rant to just say a couple comments then Arvid Elness is rom Arvid Elness and Conpany. This rilI be tbe first, I don't knol, guys have seen the color rendlering. This ls the aPartrnent building ere.re as to b e d e back and that's the...serre proposing on thls Part right hase 2... At the request of the City re droppedl Phase 3 hf our progran... That gives you an idea. I've askedl Arvl yto .ue'aPrtof ban Eor tndi EIt ng e a. igns 's backIike feel ing Arvid Elness: IrIl just make a couple Points. This is the soffit Plan. Tuo things that rrere addressed here... we did a nunber of studies anil I guess our feeling architecturally had to do...one is a tnatter of... The iecond is the fact that these elements .re standing out in fEont of this building and I feel personally that they shouldnr t be distinguishedl as a feature or element that ls different than the nain building. I think tt - uill look like a simple building uith some l.arge brick higb risgrs here etanding and the facade standing out in front of lt uith a change of 'raterial. I notice the material used qn that free standing elenent that Btand out in front of it will characterize the tbetoe of rhat should have pEoper naterials and should feel like theyr re integratedl in the design so our thinking is to take the same materials that uerre uslng...so this elenent here looks like a part of this building lnal not distinguish it as sornething different. In doing that, the rnaterials of the rnain buildingrle like lap siding. They're cedar lap siding andl cedar chakes oD the upper part and then our color ban that rill rrap around the building. Soin dloing that we just brought those materlals foreard andl Put then on the front hlre...because this is really a free standing sort oi spacial form out in front and it creates a thadlow. Creates gone interest anal alsoput aone identificatlon on there. Bradt askedtre talking lbout. ne didt sone studies as to ofessional type building and I think the...sas the dealgn of the builtling lntegrat€al and rasof the building or could be used to lntroduceof looked like part of the archtectural... 8o ntegrated lnto the bullding and to have...as opposed to ! more commerclal type brackets of 3ignage rhere therG'8 ! cert.in anount of fEeedlon through the aignage to create rn identlty lndl nark...Eo I think r,e're confortable that slth tlre bann.ge ryaten thlt goes .bove the entry at eye 1eve1... The probleu ulth the drawlngs ras th.t ue subnitted Friilay sithout identlfylng ehat ue had rgreed to rs the guentity of the potential site... 8o the tro issues I have I guess are the cbolce of.materials on the exteElor of the building lnd I think that'B ln character with xhat Iin aeelng in Chanhaseen .t thls Point rndl rhatr 5 aappening arounil town. These are Baterlals that are very conmon Pl.ce... Bradt Johnson: what about the lighttng? I Pl ann i ng April 19 Conmission ueeting 198 9 - Page 22 voted inEnnings moved I E11son second to close the public hearing. Allfavor and the rnotion carried. The public hearing ras closed. Headla: I foresee th the ska teb signs or p have no problems with the signage. ...The sidewalk there. Iat to be a... Thatrs the $ay I look at it. Iim concerned aboutoards coming down tbere, whatever. Are se putting up trafficarking si gns? H.nson: No. l{etre not proposing to put speed linit signs. Conrad: I think everybodyrs going to have the sane klnd of questions. Steve, maybe you can help us on this, or Braal . The last tine this uas .in,re uere concerned where the sialeralk ran across the traffic... we talkedrbout speed bumps. Ite talked about signs. Iou elininrted the Bpeeitbumps. you eliminated the signs and basically uhat yourve done ls paintedthe ralk so can you give u6 nore rationale for that? Hanson: I personally donrt aee that a8 a problem...look at fron a trafficstanilpoint and their reconmendation rsas striping ras more than aatequate... Speed in the parking lot is not that badl and se ahould be able to...bringing those islands out and creating parking rtaIlB lets you knowthere'a something happening there and re can put ln pedestrlan crossingrigns. In ny opinion, ttratrE rttrt re cln do lnd thatrs... Conrad: Are they going to, the pcdestrlan trafflc, .!e they golng to 90through this or ale they 9oin9 to 90 around? Are there other Bidesalksthat theyrre going to use? H.nson! I think lone of the treffic ulll go .round that ray. The otherquestion, if somebotlyrs ralklng, rhy are they ralking ln there? I can 6eetheE ualking...Kennyr6 lt rket to buy grocerles and ttren caEry tbetn back... Heatlla: Irn not concelned about peopl.e carrying gEocerle3. IrD concernedtebout young. people on Ekateboards .ndl bicycles. If youtve ever haat anoffice by a uindow on the aecond or thlrd rtory or hlgher lbove r parkingIot. llaveyou ever noticed those lpeeCters ln the parklng lot? ttrs.trocioua the say they can 3peed. Itve been hit in a parklng lot... It Arvid Elness: Then the City has some lighting plans that re looked at forour standard ones that were goinE on the street... The lighting for theparking is taken care of on tbe plan. What ee tried to do beyond that isbecause this element lrhich Etands out in front of the Eain building hasEort of a void, a space betreen itrs...ee put stanilard lights on the backside of these high risers that stanil out here so at night each one ofthese nain areas will be lit indirectly to the back side so theyill glowuith itrs own light. Then the city standards out tbere with tha light...So rerll do some architectural lighting as ue call it in these areas andevery place they refer arounil the buildlng. werll probably put some lightin the cupola on the roof up here... Those are the lighting- ideae that wehave. Signage Irve explained. the sign ban... Conrad: Anything el se? Planning Conmission l,lee t i ng April 19, 1989 - Page 23 tlilderrauth:I had a problen sith the aideraIk... I niss sonething o! isnrt the lighting of the building goingBatzli: Didlto be...? Erail Johnson: Itrs all provideil by the City as prrt of the parking lot aoItrs part of your site pl.n. Hanson: The other Iighting uas what the arcbitect hail nentloned . . . the lighting plan isBrad Johnson: I donrt have a lighting the parking lot plan that BRw put out. plan because Batzli: The access here, the left area...access east... That'a the one I talked about last tine... EIIson: I donrt like the...parking...juts around. I agree uith Dave. I'think the thing tttat bugs ne nost about rll this is, Be naturally think...tben:ight thr oug on thi s si dethe s idewal k I... and I dl aigns. . . ith an andison't stops and then yourve got this distance open but this goes d there are parking places on this side and parking places therers a sidewaLk in the niddle. Nornally a person on hidden behind trro cars until they get out ln there antllike that. I think there should be Bpeed bumps, Btop Emmings: I have the same reservation. I essentially feel that... I don't have any problem witb anything except the aideeralk directlngtlaffic... l{hat Dave says about kids on Ekateboards and little kidsralking, they can walk out betireen two parked cars. tf they're 3 L/2 feetor shorter, the driver doesn't have a chance to Bee them andl they dlonr t have a chance to see the car. Yourre creating a situation rhere I thlnkitrs;..driving down streets, you're alrlys thlnking about kids coning out betseen cars. Itrs happened to De. I didntt hit theD but other people have and werre creating that rituatlon. I think oaybe uidening lt out.Elininate some of the parking 3paces on each side of that lldteraIk...:ightlines, that uould help. Having a painted croesualk I think sould be, Ithink that's ehat we asked before. To De thlt.E essential. Ird put stop aigns there. ...atop at that sidesalk !t lrast until I sas absolutelyrlti8fied through iti6 use that the traffic on the aldeualk didntt rrrrantstog aigns. Ird atart uith that anil then Eake then prove that lt uaanrtDecesaary. Then eerd ju6t have... TiE Erhartrs dliscussion could not be heard'on the tape. Conr.d: ...yet fron the lpartment building rtandpoint, theyrre going!o... Itrs probably going to be there. Itr! falrly stralght. I.d haveto go llong rith Steve. I think it nay be . llttle blt of overktll but Ithink it strould have aone kind of algnage. Ihat'r ny only comnents. Illke the lighting. I like the Bignrge. Ia there a Dotlon? I guess ee happens. A1I the rationale says it ahouldn't, there .re speeilers... Isinply can Dot believe... I eant to see aonething to make that. sidewalk safer. Planning Co:urnission }teetinglpril 191 1989 - Page 24 have to cl,ose Dotion? the public hear ing on the preliminary plat. Is there a ElIson Doved, Bat zl i secondedprelininary plat. AIl. voted hearing ras closed. to close the public hearing on thein favor and the motion carrieat. The public Enrrings: I guesspreliminary pl.at? I uas a little confuseal about...sidewaIk i ssue . l,hat exactly. .. yas the issue is part of the 6ite p1an. That ras the firstHanson: The sidewalk document . . . Batzli uroved, ttildermuth seconded that the planning corunission recomnendapproval of the preliminary plat for the North slde parking Lot subject tothe plans stampted "Received Aprll l{, I9g9r'. AII voted i; favor aid theDotion carried. Conrad: Is there a tnotion for the site plan? Ileadla: ...1989 irith the following recomnenda t i ons . The three listed.The first tuo. pedestrian signs be added to croaswalks. I.d like to goto nunber 3 on the opposite page. Traffic engineer ahould review eidewalklocation on the east portion of the parking lot for safety, elth thepossibility of realigning the sidewalk and adding stop eigns or apeed buurps to oaximize accessibility. Conrad: Is there a secondl? The notion failsthere another motion? for Lack of second. Is EEhart: I'II nake a notion that the planning Conmlssion reconmendapproval of the revised site plan andl final facia, signage and ertcriorlighting based on the plans atatnped iReceived lpril l{, 1989" rith theconditions, nunber 1 !s iB. Nunber 2 as ls. Nunber 3, diit you start outby raying uhat? Headla: Itrs on the opposite page there. Xunber 3. Erhart: Trafflc engineerlng Bhouldl revlen rldlewalk location on the eastportion of the patking lot for safety, rith the poBsibllity of rcallgningthe sidewalk and addlng atop siEns. Andt lten number a, to levler therest access to increase access to the area for... To tevieu tbe restentr.nce of access to the north plrklog lot... Hanson3 Is the intent to try and get the acceas coning back torardts -the...? I'n just trylng to clarlfy that. ' Annings: Did tbe Public Safety Director and Fire Department revlcc thisplrn for the rccess? They dtid? . Conrad: Is there a aecond! to TiEra notlon? Planning Commission ttee t i ngApril 19, 1989 - Page 25 Ellson: IrlI seconal it. Erh.rt noved, El1son secondedl that the Planning Comnission recommendl approval of revised site plan and final faciar signage and exteEioE Iighting based on plans stamped nReceived April 14, 1989n subject to tbe following conditions: I. No business nay bave more than one ral1 aign. 2. No unpainted aluninun ehall be .Lloned on the extelioE. 3. Traffic engineering should review sideiralk location on the eastportion of the parking lot for aafety, sith the possibility of realigning the sidewalk anil ailding BtoP 5i9ns. {. Review the west entrance of access to the north Parking lot. Erhart, Ellson, wilderrnuth and Headla voted in favor of the notion. Batzli, Conrad and Emmings voted in oPPosition to the notion rnd the notion carried rrith a vote of { to 3. fatzli: uy reason is, I stilt don't like the eastern entrance to the 60uth. The eastern nost southern entrance. Enunings: rt just emphasizes the the rray it is. sidewalk issue. I canrt approve the plan PUBLIC HEARING: COUNTRY SUITES HOTEL, LOCATED AT THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF WESI 78TH STREET AND IiARKET BOULEVARD, BLOOMBERG COI,IPANIES: T. PRELII.'INARY PLAT TO REPLAT LOTS 1 AND {, BLOCK I, CHANHASSEN }IALL,. INTO TWO COMMERCTAL LOTS ON PROPERTI ZONED CBD. B. REZONING A PORTION OF BG DISTRICT TO CBD DISTRICT LOCATED BETT{EEN I{ARKET BOULEVARD AND LOT " CHANHASSEN }IALL. C. SITE PtAN REVIEW FOR AN 8S UNIT HOTEL. Jo tnD Olsen presented the staff report on the above three ltems. Cbairnan Conrad calledl the public heariog to ordcr on the Prellninlry Plrt rndt Rezoning igsue. furings noved, Erhart seconded to cl,o8e the publ ic hearlng. All voted in favor andl the notion carried. The publlc hearing uas closed. Enmings noveil 7 Wildernuth seconded that the Pl.nninE Cormisslon reconmend approval of PreliEinary Plat 189-7 aa ahown on the plat stanped rReceived tpril 11r 1989n sitb the fo1loriDg conditlonss EHINHISSEN TIEUORANDUU IO: Don Ashworth, FROM: Steve Eanson, DATE: [tay 3, 1989 SUBJ: 6s0 couLrER DRrvE . P.o. ,?J;ilr;-,iJltNHASSEN, MTNNESoTA ss317 City Hanager Planning Director Prelininary Plat Approval aDil Site plan Review of FinalFacia, Signage, Exterior Building Lighting andl ReviseilSidewalk anil Parking Layout Configuration for Chanhassen ProfessionaL BuiJ.iling The Planning Conmission at its April 19, 1989 neeting approvedthe preliminary plat for the north side parking lot subject tothe plans stamped "Received April l{, 1989.. . Regartling the site plan approval, the planning Conmission recon-nended approval of the_ revised Bite plan and iinaL facia, 6ignageand-exterior lighting-based on plans stanpedt .Received April-l{,,1989' subject to the folloring conilitions: l. No business nay have nore than one ra11 rign. 2. No unpainted aluminun shall be allowedl on the exterior. 3. Traffic engineering shouldl revies sidtewalk location on theeast portion of the parking lot for Bafety with the possibi-lity of realigning the sidewalk and adding stop signl. {. Revien the uest entrance of lcccla to the oortb parking lot. Ihis notion eas approved on a { to 3 vote. The Planning Connission discusslon in thc Eite pl.n centered onthree issues. fhe first of tho3e ras the sidewalk extendinq fronEelitage Park Apartnenta acroaa.the parking tot in the dire6tionof the clock tower. Generallyr.the Cosurlssion felt that addi-tional signage or definition -of -th is pedestrirn crosslng throughthe parking area should be adldled. Concern 1B that anali childtienusing the crosswalk uould not be vleible due to cars parkedl oneither side of the crosssalk. Ihey requestedl thrt thie be lookedlat closer by traffic engineerlng. Ehereforep I have contactedl BRW andl reguestetl that they be in attendlance at the Councilneeting on Uay 22, L989 to addless this particular issue. CITY OF Don Ashworth May 3, 1989 Page 2 Attachments April 19, 1989 P1a Preliurinary plat f Revised parking 1o Final facia andApril 19, 1989 e tlemo froD Fredl B g Commission minutes. he north side parking lot. yout. e p1ans. ePo!t. ton datedl llay 81 1989. I 2 3 1 5 6 nninorttla signagtaff r oising The second item of concern deals with the entrance and the adjusted parking configuration by the. Riviera. There was a pre- feience eipressed for ihe access as it comes in to allow a. right turn into Lhe first bay of Parking along the professional buildling rather than hiving to 90 aII the oay.to the back of the parking-lot to get into th;t parking. The adjusted configuration ias ariived at ifter neeting sith the Fruegers, owners of the Riviera. A copy of a memo irour Freil Boisington suuuarizing this neeting is attlchedt to this uremorantlum (Attachnent l6). It shouLd-be noted that this particular adjustnent to the parking is in Phase II and the approval at this tine wouldl be for the parking configuration for Phase I. The thirtl issue that ras raised by Cournissioner Batzli sas the same concern he had raiseil when this item was before the Planning Commission previously. That issue is the neeil for the access west of creit plai ns- Boulevaril on west ?8th street. Eis feelings are that this access shoulil be closed and that alloning it to renain in this vicinity only complicates the traffic flow at the intersection by the clock tower. Reconmenda t i on Staff recommends that the City Council aPProve the prelininary plat for the north side parking lot based-on plans stanped .iReceiveil April 14, 1989-. Further, 6taff recontrlendls thlt the City Councii approve the reviseil site plan and final facia, sigirage and exilrior lighting baseil on plans stampedl 'Receivedllpiil-11, 1989" subject to the conditions of the Planning Conmission. City ourcil lEeting - ! 22, LgBg 7. Eovide the addition of 2 rDre Linden trees on the lardscape plan. All voted in favor ard the notion carried.r Roger Knutson: irclude d(2). E(cuse c Halor. ' [E rction rBs EEcif ica].ly d(1).Did rDt q w H. }IORIII SIDE PARKII\E t,r I}{PRo\/EMEM PRCIi,EI 87-17. courcilfian l{orlsran: r bel ieve ttre rast ti'ne t}ut e discr:ssed this as a courEil.the.prirnary @!!c€rn that l€ had r.s tle south exit onio rtr igi *-r*"t: ietl.ccrning.our by. the clock tgrrr. I did talk to cary toaay UrGi:.y. i-g,*i. f::ld j::11i!e.to brir, it rp before rtre courcill r #D{, cary';,'it,il-u..ar'so. rEryDe get sc(rE t00re cqn0ents. rtE planning &rmission didn,t 100k atthat aspect of it again? Brian Batzli: r nade a cqrment but eveq,orE erse Eeened sati sfied ."ith it. Furci lfia! tsorro''n ! r gruess I'id like cdrnents fror the 6,,Ei1 ttren as far ashow tley feel tlat souttr exit is. }lalIor Ctmiel : of tlDse I ard ;: *" * uderstanding covering as it Es Ertioned uking btj, Oourritnan BoyE: I rpuld agproval of iten d(2). ourrilnan Johnson: Irll *cord that. 6unci lnan Johnson: r,l1 atart on riat. rr l!, basicaLry nake t},e EarE oqm=nt rnade last ti$e. As lrou can read in here, tlny aia a iol of ,efifaticn rri tlr theproper ty offi,ers tlat are Fa)nDg for tiese j-oprovsrents, that aie ueiDq .ss;J-for their inprovsi€nts ard ttr- only ,oy ttEy irirl "rur,i t E iirirrg trat pEoIErtyto rleir, it's rleir proIErty. !,ey orn it. rtrey are g"i"g-ti-iea it b thecitv at rD cost art trren-trrey,re.going to pay- to.fove-ii-ud;; at their ostand t},ey need tj,st rcess according 6 tbeir hrsinesses. Gre trnt.ccess ..€y,tteyr re goirg to retlact their off& to sglf us the Lanit, ii* ,.t t I red here.lheD lE'!ve got m Flking rot. rb nEdical buildirE. ro'oeviiognert. CourEilnan t{brlsnan: Are )rou sayirg ttry're threatenirg us Ja!r? @urrirman Johnson.! rhat,s the tone t get out of here. they didn,t urre.ten.rhat'|s basicarry tlE agresnent E fiEde rith them for thls pirirg rot .rd if rEchange trte agresrent,9o back on t}e.rgresEtt, they UrE i*-'i'iEni;;;t;: I ri ::'11 p:"_!o go inro cordgrnarion to co.rrsnn ir=ir r.r,a i"i o,rv rr fEnrI thsn to do the sane thirg. rn condsnnatim they nay nin the sarE .rgunerrBL anl f,ay. 15 courri lnan Bolt npved, GuDcikian Johnson secoDded to at?rove site pran Reviei{for a 6 ard 8 unit toe,nhcme buirdirB for south r.otr:s viiias rurr.,t *.". -- i[voEed in favor ard the 691i9n carriea. City Cor:ncil lGeting - l,r- U, I9g9 ., councilnan trtorlsnan: so Jay tlen 1ou're saying 1ou're furly in favor of thisegress at least canirg out at that intersection: oourrcitoan Johnson: r ber ieve tlrat for tlE people stro'have been trere,businessneo in our conmunity for a 1on9 tire, they deserve ttrelr pariir,g rot tobe convenient for t}eir businesses. rhey rculd llke a fuu rigtrt- trrrn,' rertturn. Iits negotiatd dorin to a right furn in anit right tum ouf onry. tt.s notthe best thing in tlE sDrld h,t tne engineers say if,s eafe ard ttii a iotbetter than it is nor because rrn ltrs ridicuroG because peopre try to't"r.that left turn ln ttpre. tbw tJEy rtrrrt be able to tlrrn Gft- into -tJrat rc it,sgoirs !o be an iaprovanrent orer ttn cirrrent sltuatian but iiis r.i g.irrg t" b.as good as r Fant it. rhatts Hhat r tiink is the mst reasonabt e, itre iestccrq>r,,ri se to do. lib have to live vith tlpse busiresgnen to. hi carr,t lust!r:t thsn otlt of hrsiness. so tllat's *rere r sit. .rB that it.r a reasonableocr4lr.,ni se. llalor Grniel : tEsula? ourcihsnan Di-Eler: I donit have any @[Eerns. Corrnciinan Boyt.: I fird it interestirq tDe, rE get ourselves into theseaituations of rihere eE, on the ore hard rr have business lnterests r*ro very ouchr{?n! that ray in ard out of their property. Cr the other hard eE have ttr-citiuns Hho are going to_ drivi thlough tJrat intersection .rri rD just qrle they.'re -not goirg to be preasd but r ttrink as Jay Hrtioned, itrs kird of partof. the. deal -ard. tlough rE rEy Dot be happy witll il, I think e riff be h.Fpysi th the nedical arts center. So although I r,as oI?osed to this, t,n wiliifo to -accept it. I think it,s tle best cqnprcEise e,re-going to get. l'byor cnrier: Basicarly lrgm what boti of 1pu have said .rd r Eort of agreewith each of those. I think tlle ae=essibil,ity ras to be t}ere too for tlEbusinesses. we rnay not be hapry witlr irhatrs there but r think itrs the -best thing re can have right mw. I tlrink BilI lentioned that. Courcilman iforlsnan: dray, I . guess I,d just like to say I ,m totaUy for thebusinessnan in t}e city. r in no Ey, shaEE or fo.r nant to, as rive saia-before, t},elers many otlrer optioBs fo! IEpJ,e to sperd their-rcrey ratlnr-tt ndountom chanhassen r'd rather see tcre. tg in t-}p Pas! have ruai a aiJtaxe rthink sr that corner b.y ttE ct ek torrcr ard r think in,re ading a iiiiie uituore of a nistake to it. lf e have rn olportunity to fix it. -r sirreiery*ti*-" th.t i! is goirg to create a problen tf th6y & r,t h.ve trut-.o..ttlere bJt r trink rDnetheless and r gr-ss r ent to- go on record "s-"ayirE IUrink itrs goirg to create ! probla there. f knorp that IH 1Sl iB soiil to b.Doved aratualry so traffic etroutd be reduc€d ln t}lrt alea but r ctiu Lve@rEerns. ourilnan Johnson mved, orrrri Lnan Boyt secorrded to approve the tbrth stdePalkirE tot lrnpro\rgrent project 187-17: :. tseriminary plat .nd site plan Approval for the tedical Arts Eri ldlir,gb. Esolution *gg_7s.. Iuprove prans .nd specific.tio.s arg luttpiire-lLMvertising for bids. AII voted in favor ard the motion caEried. t t. ! l6 I lllE!li!Iillifitr litilt; $i r c- '+- 1 t:-fi* r lb.r t* t t I .i! Irl'I '| Ir I a J N t I I I I I I I I I I t * .l'.li .,1 ,Ct ' IEtr t t II l oII t ffimpfr Hi,fiflil1 #:$tfr,i#frir!l[.]' ;iall.xrl,hl F: Il lllrffiiiil r.:r f,.i!].i!u!l, l,]1 l-ii::rE-rr:lilIE; 'i"j'iilFri'Hi *.III:IE itltil.rfld;;i. rfl + E tE EE q E q g q q j a tl! aII i I i!I IJI Ei F-lE-lF- EI lilII ! II I ! IcI t ita:t li!: I,{ I I a I lxi: l= l li I l=I H E o E I I (--\i\ {" t I -\ =tr { a o o o c € ( & $"EI .$e @ t 't !i 4:i!. :. -r(.: 113.-: -' *.,.t o o o oI I oI It o I II I tr oI I q I iI e il il E fl lli I it8t-l E--J fil II tstfl l}aa l*= E I - IoI Ti I l{ I I I a JI q I ! Ior 7I tI E E q m m ff E EE E H II- aI:I!I- t '1 : .I i( *Hg 'lfu.:'E !i I .J I I I I It I 1I 1 ai I I I .t I I I .t a-'l -.{I I I lli.:a,I ... I o rIE tr I I I II I II i II I II I I I I I I I I I I I I I i , ! 1 1$ I { I II I I I I I I I t I I i I I I I I f l I-Jt ras- 0 ir tI t I I-{ I I -'! - I .J ;l it t_ i. t' II t t -a I I ;T I I I r!l. I I iil I I tt I t t o o @ o I oI @ o h!t *i oI lE; uralrulsnflm E: =:iIIEMiltqt.llnmril-:Iil=-r --.=lil:=liiim{lfinurE] ==IINN=.m iftltrmrili :!ilI mEilE=l ilt T ltlt r==[a tni! EE![ za q q I I ll I3I IJt IeI I rl T I BI i - r E mt o[! = !E E F! El E E E ! ! ! :I ; I !iII i I - l fl 'ai. x E li5l# LI il .f, il @ I T ( I ET' E:f '. T .d ,I I' H!3 v. € r-tr l+=: il!$[! :ar:g:-t I I I T J $ I I ri iis ifr @ t,, E E [il trl @ tr l',. ti t I L I !t '!l t 't I I ! !til tt I{t I s tt {} f o,.l tr_ a J s I I I I I I I I I I r t_ l, I t I I $" E.:$l @ tI I -l II -{ .t I I I I t --1 --{ I ri rl :tltlt -rl EIE t I o o o ot I oI @ o o e t I t \ I i oI oI E] I I t :EEE=l I E E I 9 IoI EI = IItaE EE If!II I!I i I i EE E =, !FliE-l ItrII I q I i , i I I I'I I I i I I I II I I I I I I I I \ lel CHANHASSEN PLANNING COi{I,IISSION REGULAR }IEETING IIAY 2 , 1990 Chairman Conrad called the neeting to order at 7:35 p.m.. ;iEi{BERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Steve Emmings, Annette ElIson,Brian Batzli, Jim l.lildermuth and Joan Ahrens l Ladd Conrad, Jo Ann Olsen, Se ni or PUBLIC HEARTNG: J- VARTANCE TO THE SIGN ORDINANCE TO HAVE 2 UALL SIGNS AND SrTE PLAN AHENDT4ENT a. IgR THE CHANHASSEN IiEDICAL CENTER LOCATED AT I|ESI 78TH STREET. BRAD JOHNSON. Publ ic Pregent: Name Address STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss, planning Dircctor;Planner; and Sharmin Al-Jaff, plannine Intern Brad Joh nso n Bob Hithune John Jacobson , Vice Pres.of Professional Services Oan Anderson Applican!, Lotus Realty Deve I oper Ridgevier.r Medical Center l.lanager, Chanhassen Hedical Center Chairman ConradJo Ann olsen presented the staff rcport on this iLem.called the public hearing to order. Brad Johnson: I g uas eddressing wathe PIanni ng Comm ,neet i ng Nhere the records othing we' because astaff. S I PME .I v n uess what I'd ]ike to address is the things that Jo Annprimarilr that this plan had not been approved by eitherssion or the City Council yet 3 of us h,ere at thisapproved it including Arvid Ellncss and ue've gott of plans to herc on the 17th to Steve Hanson. The only9 is Steve Hanson because he,s not here to deal uith itme ..re eJerer'r't dealing wlth this particul.r people on theen our feeling from the vcry beginning and until uhat,of last ueek that 5 signs had bccn approvcd on bothind of surprised. Secondly thcn I think uc'd just liked upon lt's merit and you can rcconsider it so that ..,e'llnce more and hopefully it comes out okay. So that'slike to approach it. lle have John Jacobson and...fromob Hoveland uho uorksd r.rith us on the original rcvieur.erc the signs uould be locatcd first. Thls ls kind of aowntoun... To gct . llttlc history on uhy the bulldinging is so they'll understrnd. This ls r totll irlan forSitc plan. f sh re m tth o it issinat ti's beFriday or Thursdaysides. So ure're kto present it basepresent our case oprobably hor.r ue 'dthe Clinic. . .and BLet us show you xhbig plan of what dls where the bui Idthe downtor.rn area. Bob Hithune: Hopcfullv vou're all orientcd so Just bricfly, this is theKenny's and so on, strip ccntcr right hcrc. This ts the nct{ - professlona Icent.r, office building and this is thc cxisting lawn sports lnd theRiveria over here. And th. Heritagc park apartments are right here. Brad Johnson: Right behind it. ( Planning Commission i.leet i n9 nay 2, 1990 - Page 2 Bob tlithune: originally our first plans that ue submitted this buil the Ci ty number on tlhat 's th ding di dn e, iat c back here. Risht along here and alI the Psrki't Hant that. And the City didn't want it I 9uust like uhat is going on over on this side of aIled? to th ng in ess b the R e City hadfront but eca u se iver ia . Brad Johnson: Town Square. Bob t'lithune: And similar to this development rnd Eecondly, they thought this urould be more like a building in a city. Dob,ntob,n city that's right up close to these sidenalks. So ue Hent along r.rith that and lrhat that resulted in is a buildins with maybe 2 fronts. I think that's importlnt for consideration. Brad Johnson: And uhere do ue place the signs... Bob t4ithune: tJell ue uanted 5 signs located t, 2, 3 this side, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. 4, 5 and again on Bred Johnson: Nor.l if you're looking at the building, you can look at zoning dountor^:n and you can have 15 signs from the cBD district on the the only buildins in tor.rn that woul entrance on the parking lot side an calculation and ure are using 5? of he front of a building can betreet...!uro fronts. This r+ill beactually two fronts. It has an the other side so ue did a quick -ont of this building so we're trell the would be on the buildins and ue'vebelow the al lor.red amount of signage Zoft main s the fr that d have d then trsded, if you read all your ordinances, they trant to have a new proposed sign ordinance. I don't think uhich has passed. They prefer to have a sign b some c over t this i an on the building cith a limit of height and everything so you have ontrol as to uhere those signs ui]l be so they'rc not plasteied all he SA uilding so they have some consistency uith the buildins. And r building in downtoun, ue've always been stuck to that concept ould have a sig was the opi nio hould have some n varyinE color d si gns , r.rou I d hat discussion b n ht i et - that ure sthere. I buildinslouId be ncon bac k remember n ban. It rlso gives us control over uhat is n of Fred Hoisington I belicve that also thiscolor .nd he fcl.t thc additlon of signs Hhichs potcntially, thc neon aigns, they basically are add to thc intcrcst in the buildinc itsclf. I canwith Frcd. So basically ue havc thc 5 signs oncy'rc thcrc to advertlso thc tcnants. This is notthink of it !s. profcssional acrviccs building both sides. EasicalIy th an office building as oe is ifgh traffic arca. So then the eecond problem you havejust in thc front and none in the back, pcoplc can'tthey'rc supposed to go ln and rclate to lrhet it is sosically our prcsentrtion. Eoth sides are using about rontage for signs, Thsy're on . sign ban. Thcy're b rsquirements. It is thc only building like thls in tthe available fyour ordi nance rhere you'll have insurance rgcncy and your rcal Gstatc pcopla, mysclf, rdho- xant to advertise the fact that thcy'rc in the bullding and thcy'rc not,aort of passive. One of the rcquircments of all our t.nants tncluding thedentist is that thcy have somc kind of ldentlflcation on thc buildine because that'srealize it's hyou have signsidentify dhere guess thet's b one of the reasons they uint this locatlon is bccause they t-6t of alou own and -c Etuff t a finally, rr.s approved once to our xay of thinkine bccause t.l€ Bcnt th t ( Planni n9 Commission tleet i ng Aay 2, 1990 - Page 3 over here and I was standing meeting. EverYbodY nas i ntcreI think you remember that. Ssaid that, he used to sit rig xas the only comment they sai here. It just wasn't an issue at thatd in the control bumps and the traffic, Just bsaid t and u UP steoI htda oth owned signage o Ser eul nha in9 cfalt atc n93r as vices, uhich are businesses that Medical center, to place high qua ssen Professional Building. As B ler.r riEht by and Headla he signs look fine and thathy did }le uant... I'11 r rnd I did urant to takethe clinic manager at incd us and I should say is our Busi ness and operated by n both sides of irst floor betuecn theh Scrviccs. tle fcel it Eign.gc on cither side of theis e hieh cu!Iity, individuallycfcrrcd to as clarcd on- bold.ln height and we anticipate the think itthere, he bout signsleave it to your discretion. Oo you from the cllnic uant to say anythingas far as the need of signs? There seems to bc 6ome concern herc thatbusinesses don't need signs such as yourself. John Jacobson: These are not lll comments that I have. I did have acouple handouts. f.1y name is John JProfessional Services at Ridgeviewthe opportunity to introduce Dan An Chanhassen l'ledicaI Center. Dan jus doing a very excellent job, particu cLinic moved into a new location.opportunity tonight to appear befor cobson. I'm Vice Prcsident of requesting is allowing the Chanhassen l.ledic a tl d tII e edical erson ht recentarly th Bant t you . Cente ho isly Joe laso tha As Bral Ceare blityrad s getting the mmission for theted, uhat u,e ere t ueek innk the cord suggesnter and Health Ridgevithe Cha r equest uggested, ue're reallythis for a couple of reasons. First of all, rs Brad did eludeto, r.,e really feel that this building does have turo fronts and signage isimport8nt on both sides. The street side from an et4arcness perspective. The fact that Business Health Services is there. fhe Chanhassen t,tedical Center is there and then on the parking lot side, to identify lrhich entrances people should go in. As Bob indicated. if the parking were infront of the bu j.ldins, this uould obviously not bc an lssue. lte uould bevery satisfied with signrEe on one side of thc building. Secondly. if you look at the building design ltself, the northeast corner is really only forthe Chanhassen Hedical CentGr and peoplc cannot get from that northe!stcorner up to the second floor so lre Hant to bG sure that ..,e havc ver), clear6i9nE9e. The only e,ay thc)r can really get to the second floor on the northcide is on the northuest sidc and not the northc.st 6idc ao He uant to have signage that makes that vcry cl.ar. Thirdly and pcrhaps most inportantly, rde feel and if I could paraphrasc John Dcvins uho's thc Prcsident of Ridgeview Medical Centcr uho could not bc hcrc thls cvening and asked me totalk in his stead. He fcels very rtrongly that rGrlly as . major tenant inthe building, xe rcally do heve the entir Chanhassen l{edical C€nter end Business Hc extremely important thet }lr havc appropribuildins. The signage thlt uc're proposl illurninated signs Eith a typc style that.' The letters r.rill be approxim.tcly 10 lnch signage to be very professional looking and rcally cnhance the looks of thcbuilding. Those are Jry commsnts. If anyonc has any qucstions or thoughts, I'd be more than happy to cntertaln thcm. I anyone is curious, copics of thc specs on cxectly xhatsbout. It gives you r littlc blt of a focl for thc siz and the type of the lettdrlne thlt x"'rc trlklng ebout. do have, in clseIt is r4e're talkingc of the I etter i ng Thank you. I Conrad: Any other comments?. I ( Conrad: Any hear i ng? other comments? Is there a motion to close the public Batzli moved, tlildermuth acconded to close the public hcaring. All votedin favor and th€ motion carried. The public hcaring ras closed. Conrad: Joan, &,e'l.I start down at your cnd. Comments. euestions. Recommendations. Ahrens: r knou verv Iitt1e about this buildine. rs there a lobby inside? Brad Johnson: Yes. On one cnd ther.'s a... The nay this rorks is there's-a lobby comi.ng in on the north therc. On this end there's a lobby that'sfor the upstairs and do*nstairs... This is the north side. so you come inhere and you 9o upstairs to the tenants that are on the second floor andvou'd also go to Business Health services uhich is located on lhe firstfloor. If you Hant to 9o to the iledical Center...you 9o in this door. Ahrens: Because there's no! an interior halltray? Brad Johnson: No. That's r.rhy they just take the whole floor and so thisentrance is only for the medical center. That's r.lhat John uas saying. Ahrens: r assume there r"rill be some tvpe of a signage inside the lobbythat tells vou where the location of t.he offices inside so people who comeinto the lobby will know where to go. Brad Johnson: Oh sure, But not for the medical center. Ahrens: Right. rn the staff report, there's a statement in the backgroundstatement that says one of the conditions of approval uas that no businessmav have more than one rall sign as rcaulated *ith the sign ordinance.tlall sign refers to the ban also? Is that lrhat? Okay. i assumc thcrc'sgoing to be more than, how many tcnlnt3 arc aoing to be in the.building? Brad Johnson: t,tajor tenants, probably about S or 6 and thcn tmell, 10. Ahrens: So ban sign? you Hant to advertiss the najor tenants in thc bullding like a Brad Johnson: Yes. That's basicallv rhv rc havc thc s on both cidcs. Ahrcns: Eut thcre uill be aorc than onc :ign for the mcdicar t.nent rieht? Brad Johnson: I think that's uhat'a bccq rccommended and t think the staffsaid that 's fine. Brad Johnson: Two bans for the two major Then one for the balance of the...tcnlnts rhich arc hsrc toniCht. Planni n9 Commission t,teet i n9llay 2, 1990 - Page 4 I l Ahrens: so !,hat you uantcd 2 bans for cach major tcnrnt? rs that Fhat you ra nted? ( Planning Commission Heet i ng l4ay 2, 1990 - Page 5 Ahrens: So you uant 5 in the front and S in the back? Brad Johnson: okav, there will be 5 in the front and 5 in the back r.rithl'ledical Health services having 2. or urhat do you calr it, Business HealthServices. And the lledical Center having 2 because they take up a goodshare of the building and that uiII eive direction as to uhere pcopleshould go and identification. The balance of the tenants probably'ruou]d have one. As r read the staff report, uhat they r.Jere concerned a6out r.rasnore not brhether you rcally had one or tbro signs but that there h,ere nomore signs than allowed. Is that right? Olsen: Than r.lere originally approved, yes. Ahrens: The plans that were submitted on April 19th, thplans or uhatever. I don't know hou many plans they sub Brad Johnson: t^,e submitted the second plans on the 17th. Ahrens: .Oka),. So those are the plans that you rcferred to as Aprilplans?19t h e second set ofmitted. 1., ha t Olscn: 18th, yeah. Ahrens: 18th? Okay. At r.,ho,s request h,ere thosc plans submitted?uas the purpose of havinE those cxtra plans submitted? Brad Johnson: Steve Hanson, l.l i ldermuth : l.te can blame it on Steve . Brad Johnson: Oh, Just bccausc th and I and the ouners of the buildi Brad Johnson: No, no. He submitted a set of plans and they h,ereincomplete relative to the signaEe so He submittcd thogc on Friday andHondav we came back. rt hras a site plln that had the 6i9n on it and theelevation that had the signs on it ucre incomplete. Ue caught it r.rhen wereceived it and we said to the rrchitcct rrhy did you do thai and that rlaslike on a Thursday. So on Friday ne shlpped ovGr thc balance of theplans...and then we colored thcm up and presentcd them this uay. Ahrensi t^rhv would thc first sct of plans havc s signs indicatcd on themand the second set of plans havc 10? e archltcct hadn't coniultcd nith us, Bobng as to rhet kind of sionage we uanted.n rc got thc plens and r.le said, heyit . l.le clearcd it verbal ly with Steve That uathat's Hanson. . Sowecight and ws just not aught lt rrhe submittcd here . s allnot r He' e Ahrcnsr with 10 signs to the planning commission? Ahrens: So you're saying that the City. Stcvc Hanson, approved 10 signs? Brad Johnson: The Planning Commission, 9,e say. but th€rc's no rccord of itbut ue presented this plan. t Brad Johnson: And it ulasn't even an issue at the meeting. Basicall.ythat's less signage than we could do just by ordinance. The ordinancepermits 15? which this is less signage. Emmings: Yeah, is that 152 is the maximum? Brad Johnson: Yeah. Emmi ngs: You You're sayi ng get hrhst thi ngs a gets approved. You don't automatically get 15?.little. . . Brad Johnson: I!'s a good argument. Emmi ngs: Yea h . Ahrens: l',1y impression is thet a lot of illuminated 6i9ns on the front of abuildine does make it resemble a strip mall It seems that if the CityCouncil had wanted, there r.las a desire to have the building moved to thefront of the property so that it uould be more like a downtown type ofbuilding and that it wouldn't look ]ike a strip mall. So it seems to methat if you put that kind of signage on the front of the buildins, it kindof defeats the purpose of moving the building to the front of the property and having it look like a regular downtoun building. Brad Johnson: There was this building. . . no discussion about that. l.le alulays presented Ahrcns: t,lell, they may not have thought about that but I just thought ofit. Bob Hithune: tlell there uas discussion but not part of the City Council and that's r.that the planners at that time nanted. Ahrens: They wanted the building moved to the front of the lot. Bob Mithune: And they Bantcd a lot of colorful signs. Ahrens: A lot of colorful signs? tlell, I cln't tmegine that uould lookvery good. That's ,ny or.rn personal oPinion. That a lot of colorful signs onthe front of the building is going to make lt look l,lke a rcal profcssional buildins. Brad Johnson: t,hat is a rGal profcssional bulldinc? Ahrcnss l.lell, one r.rith less illuminated. aicns ill over the front. 'Lots of -colorful signs. That's my pcrsonal opinion like I said. I think it'ssubjective. There's no objcctive standard for uhat a profcssional buildine should look like but if it'E moved to the front of the proparty where it's -supposed to look likc a regular officc buildinc in a downtown arca, f don't see the purpose for that qnd f thlnk that lf therc ts signage in the insideof the building r.,here peopl., lt's not that bie a bullding uherc people xould get lost trying to find. t Planning Commission l.leet i n9 |1ay 2, 1990 - Page 5 I I PIanni ng Commission tleeti ng ay 2, 1990 - Page 7 Brad Johnson: It's a very large building when it's all completed. Ahrcns: tlell I've been by it. It's not r hugc building Brad Johnson: No, thcre's another uholc winE that gocs uith thisgoes on all the way down to the Riverla. Ahrens: It's not built yet? Brad Johnson: No. conrad: You're only looking at half hcrc. Brad Johnson: You're only looking at half the building. thing. It Ahrens: tJell, I think that signage inside a building up there is ato direct people. I mean it's not a huge office building.I obby Brad Johnson: I appreciate what you're saying but this is not an officebuilding. It's a professional servicc building which is like retail. Thetenants that we put in there expect signage Ahrens: t,elI r think there's a big difference bctueen a retail buildingand a professional building... Brad Johnson: l'1v tenants' point of view. r'm the one...they uant signs orthey r.rouldn 't be here Ahrens: ttell okay. I mean I don't brlnt to argue with you. I'n giving you my opinion and that's the purpose of having our rcport right now. f don'thave any more comments at this tine. lJildermuth: l.tould you have morc than one ten.nt on a sign bar? On asingle sign bar Brad? Brad Johnson: Hore than one tGnent on a singlc? Thc ban could handle liketwo probably. Each one of thase bars. l.lildermuth: Thcn you lould plan to do comethinc like that? t nc.npotential ly? Brad Johnson: Thcy have to comc back cach timc pc do e slgn. .lte havecnough siEn space hcrc sc thlnk for our tonrnts... llildcrmuth: HoN manv tcnants potcntirlly rill you havc in the bullding? Brad Johnson: You'vc got to talk about major tcnants and minor. Ue'retalking about 6 maJor tcnants. Llildermuth: Just total . Brad Johnson: lle could have about 30. I i Planning Commission Heet i ngllay 2, 1990 - Page I t,ildermuth: Okay, so there are quite a number that r.ron't have sign r epr ese nta t ion? Brad Johnson: uho ure real ly That's right. It's mainly the ones like...doctor or dentistare concerned about. l.lildermuth: [.Jell in al] honesty, I'm not very impressed with the appearance of the buildins to begin r.lith. It seems to me that the frontthe building probably ought to have a single sign ban and maybe the back could have 3. Something like that but I'm not in favor of illuminatingsigns and I'm certainly not in favor of 5 sign bans in front and 5 sign bans in back. The Southdale l,ledical Building for cxample doesn't have signs. of the - any tli ldermuth: I understand. John Jacobson: I think part of our objective here is that the Chanhessen l'ledical Center is going to be attracting people from a fairly geographic area and they're going to be coming into tor.Jn. They'11 know of the Chanhassen Professional Building. They're going to perhaps see that main signage and yet there's still going to be some question. tJe just have aninterest in being sble to be visi.ble from both sides of the building if you-uill. Really for tuo different purposes. The front side beinE thelocation of uhere the Business Health Services is located 1n the Chanhassentledical Center and on the back side, the different cntranccs, I mieht addthat there is not a r.,ay in from the lobby arca into the Chanhassen tledical - Center on the north. ehrens: f understand that. John Jacobson: You eluded that perhaps thcrc should be Iobby area and peoplc could elo in that ray. They can't from that door. signage in Cet to the theclinic Batzli: f lssume that, if f rcmembcr, Phlse 2 thc buildings king of tie in and I assume !t that point you uould uant signs up and doun thc froht .nd back of Phase 2. The th,o buildings tic lnto one another. Brad Johnson: That's rlght and it'a a retail bullding. Conrad: Anything clse Jim? Erian? Batzli: Jo Ann, in the report I think you Bald that you didn,t have aproblem uith the same tenant advertising on both thc front rnd the b.ck. That no variance would be rcquired- And no variancc uould be requircd ( Brad Johnson: That's a different . . . l,Jildermuth: How do you see that Brad as a different kind of building? ' Brad Johnson: John, maybe you b,ant to addrcss marketing of health services because this is not, I'm dealing with what the tenants require. Not so much. - - ( ( Planning Commission Heet i ngj4ay 2,1990 - Page 9 additionally if Lre approve the.10 signs here correct? Because they're notover the maximum limit? I guess I was kind of looking at this a little bigdifferently I think than Jim and Joan. I uas picturing this as more of a downlown buildine. More retail likecluster of different buildings, Eacindicating urho uras in that. Henness knour, Excelo Bakery and so r.,hen f Haif this is the type of building ue uthe signs so that's kind of how I ua celsior it uould be arould have their ourn signices. Ben Franklin. Youhis, I r.las picturing it asdo, ue should give themit and I don't have a sEx them Ser vngt 9toat e sign in the front and they made the decision that they r.rantedre. I don't think if they uent in the rrong door in the back,they'd only do it one time and they'd probablv never make thatn. Number tb,o, I think they've nade the decision that they'rein there based on ulhat the front is so I don't think the back see thin the ifhoy1 sP eresl it ua ne of ravel i ctur itryin oo ki nEproblem with giving them the 10 signs. Ellson: f sat down and thought of it in terms of if I r.ras the tenant. Theycould t o go numbe mi sta goi ng nee ds the apar tmenis es import can dc it ad Emmings: I Looked at this the uay Brian did basically. I don't reallyhave anvthing to add besides that 60 Id be comfortable uith the 10 myserf.A couple other things, comments I'd have is, if this is the ChanhassenProfessional Building and if there winds up beinE 6 najor tenants and 15small ones, it trould seem to me you sould want that name on the building somewher e . Brad Johnson: It's on the pylon. Emmings: Okay. That's in front. Okay. That tskcs caie of that concernlnd then the only other conccrn I'd havc ls having nore than onc name on asign. I'm not real comfortable r.lith that and f don.t knox if it means thatthe Iettcring gets smaller. If you uind up trylng to put 5 pcople on oneof those bans. I think it ought to be limit.d to, lt probably should belimited to one tenant per ban. That's all I'vc aot. Erhart: I think the medical industry has changed signtficantly and. uhat ue used to think of as a professional bulldlng years r9o or cven 10 years .9o, a dentist and f do. I go to l4ike Leonard ovcr in the building ovcr Road there and he's havinc a hard time getting 9oin9. There's noout there. r one, ke aga ito go to hev e haveoffica strfirst bee n traff decidlike eet and time I e quite as many. Then I thought about, what does my doctor'sor rhat does my dentis! have end my dentist is right up againsthe's got it in front but he doesn't have it in back. Thewent in there I went in the urong door but ever since I,vento the right door so I can't see that many. I think that thet going to be in the back, The people go in the back have're going in there because they're going to park. tt's nottraffic area that's Eoing to draw people in unlcss thcy,re int building or somethins like that so I don't see that that sideant to them as the front str€et and I think the front streetequately r.rithout having the back. So that's my comments. l goi ng iic isn' ed they a hish today has become much norc compctitive and thercforc I think today aprofessional building needs that signagc to attract customers. I knor.l ifIgoto by DeII signage ( Plannlng Commission l,leet i ng ?1ay 2, 1990 - Page 10 Brad Johnson: He's moving. Guess uhere he's moving? Erhart: Here? Brad Johnson: Guess urhy he's movi n9 . him a sign?Ellson: Because you promised Brad Johnson: No. He's in a building that does not or hasn't set it upIike thjs. t,e're recognizinE the necds. tle also have another dentist moving because of that Conrad: The 15? but fiotion? r.te can have, okay. Those arc my commcnts. Any Emmings: I'll move that thc Planning Commisslon recommcnd approval of thesign proposal allowing 5 signs on thc front and 5 signs on the back'for atotal of 10 signs and recommend approval of the site plan amendment diththe condition that there not be more than one business name per sign ban. Batz I i 3 second. Enmlngs movcd, Batzli r.condcd th.t th. Plannlng Commicslon raconn.nd .pproval of tho sign propo3rl 5 alcns on thc north sldc .nd 5 .lgns on thG Erhart: Yeah, I asked him if he uas and he hadn't decided yet but anyb,ay, -I think it's real competitive out there and I think they need the signageto get going so I'm in favor of the signage. Conrad: okay, thanks Tim. ft's real clear to me, I believe I approved Nhat I see here. lly memory fads through time. In fact, over 24 hours it fades but I do believe that this is urhat I sat.r and it didn't raise any concerns L,ith me then and it still doesn't because it still looks tasteful .:I think i!'s critical in retailing, and I think as h,e develop dor.rntown Chanhassen, it's just really critical that we give people the signs thatdrive folks into, that help people get to the riEht building. It's part of my business - I see it all the time. Signege is extremely important. One,-ue kind of impose the problem on the building. The city imposed it. Still, regardless of whether the City moved it foruard or back, I think thebuilding has th,o fronts and the consumer has the right to find thebuilding, the office that they h,ant to 90 to. I think the siEns add some excitement to it. It is, as somebody clse said, it is retail space. It's more than a professional office buildins like xe're used to. The business -has ehanged. Like Steve, I agree. I don't think se should allor.r multi names on one ban. f don't like that. The only other thing that bothers me, the only other thing that bothers me is uhat thls. If our ordinancedidn't allor.r us to allor.r 5 front and back signage, r.rall 6igns, f uould tant-to revisit the ordinance. It docs so ue can do this and therefore ue'renot setting a precedent. l.le lre rcsponding to ! situation that isjustified. At least in my mind ls Justificd so ue arcn't setting a -prccedent. Olsen: As long rs they'rc below. { ( Planning Commission l,leet i n9 i4ay 2, 1990 - Page 11 south side for a totaL of 10 signs for the Chanhasscn itcdical Ccnter xiththe condition that therc bc no more than one busincss nlme per sign ban.All voted in favor Gxccpt Ellson, Uildermuth rnd AhrGns sho opposcd and therotlon carried uith a vot. of /t to 3- Conred: Annette r any summary for why you votcd rcainst it other than your comme nts? Conrad: The same? I sould imagine the samc.l.lotion passes. Goes to Council? May 3oth? V.ry str.ight forsard. Okay. Olsen: I don't knor.r if that's right. It's the ttednesday after... PUBLIC HEARTNG: NORTHL.IEST NURSERY LOCATED AT 7801 GREAT PLAINS BOI'LEVARD JUST SOUTH OF LYhAN BOULSVARD: A. I.IETLAND ALTERATION PERI4IT FOR THE ALTERING AND FILLING OF A CLASS B I.IETLAND . B. CONDITIONAL USE PERI.IIT FOR THE EXPANSION OF THE UHOLESALE NI'RSERY. Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report. Chairman Conrad called the public hearing to order. Hark VanHoef: I'd Iike to shou some slides, Obviously all the. drawingsare a little cumbersome to work trith sof what ure're reall have a few slides t make some commentsrrea to the south oplsnting screen of oas to ru neighbor' Fi nger 'sanything. OI iehtJ tchhh Y looo kin as tof the8to king at that md of compl imen some of her e entrance uhic thought if I showed some picturcst be somcwhat helpful . I just o Ann's prcsentation and then I'lIes or akctchings. This is theas alrcrdy been bermed and 10 foot Austrian Pines have bcen put in. Theproblem that Jo Ann cluded to and sone of you rcmcmbcr, lte eere hcrc lastfall- This area right h.r! Has thc only ditch iatch arca for any of thelrater. And uhen ue irrigatcd the holding area, that rater thcn roul rop, thc holding crop thlt Hc had in therun into thia ditch and the only outletbcginning of our drivcray onto ourroPerty. lt crGatcd Eome problems. The c d c Pt a d hlt n e o ht nt SP EPP U hrough a culvcrt et throperty, thc Fing6r's roached us. Ure ucren'e contacted l,lnDot lnd really In a posltion ut that timc xcrG told t He rercn't a l lowc as brought ln fron h the Clty and uha, this is not thc holding .rca that e could dohat that pas the make any changcs.the City and cxisting drainflor.r or watcrflow an So the problem continued untll tt l,'lnDot came bac k out . tre uor kcd $i shor.r it in the next picture, Aeai dor.rn the ditch area but this is th screen or that pLanting scrcen. Hplanting screen that goes across tnaterial uras stored on that the ua re's TH 1O1 right hcre and here'se high*aY 80 thls i3 the sraa thatcr runof f r.r!s crcrti n9 ! problem . nd dtotoft r.ra ncx tis I ngui th P T s donc, endpicturc eroibehind that can elanthisis teken early this spring lfter xe dtd do sonc arading lest fall toalleviate the drain problem. l.rhrt bre rcally acconrplichcd hcrc is a ncr,r ElIson: No, nothing other than the comments f 'vc had. I {iii:iii:iiiri,R-'.ffi Arvid Elness.{rclrilects Inc mav o? tgg3 CffY OF CHAI\|-IAo)EN 04 May 1990 Ms. JoAnn Olsen City of Chanhassen 690 Coulter Drive Chanhassen, Minnesota 5531? Dear JoAnn: A.RVID ARCHITECTS, INC. Arvid Elness, AIA PresidenUCEO Butler Noxh Buildin8. Suite 200 610 FiEt Arrnue North Minneapolis,Minnesota 55403 TelephoDe 612.339.5508 I have been asked to review our file on the approvals grantcd to the Chanhassen Professional Building as related to exterior sigaage. I attended the meeting at City Hall in which the attached plans were presented by Brad Johnson and myself. I personally described and discussed the sigaage on the plans 17 April 1989 and recall them being approved aller Brad explained the necessity in order to attract profeesional service organizations. In regard to the above please find copies of our transmittals to Steve Hanson dated 14 April 1989 and 17 April 1989. The description and remarLg deesribe tlre eigaificance ofthe plans. The plan sheet A5 dated 17 April f989 was labeled eity eubmittal and was used on or about the day it s'as transmitted. I hope this might assist in clariffing this matter. Thank you, and if you have furtler questions, please contact me. Sincerely, I*tter of Trans, .ttal ll.' al DATE: 11 , LA.u, fr JOB NO: /,lr,^tlar/*t Ffue*r*g iErrqzr.rat Arvid Elness.drcrlitecrs Inc Butler North Building, Suite 200 610 First Avenue North Minneapolis, Minnesota 554 03 Telephone 612.339. 5508 RE i[lIlITmTrnn rlllllIltt TIfiI alaaillj-rq Tir: )le-t *^..raol P,-r"rSrr.pt *a, C-r*< q CtL+!*+e*l llrt ue rcrrling 1ou ;ttuthcd: E Shop Dravings E Copy of larcr E Spccifrc.rrions )( Prinrr D Plans E) Chlngc Ordcr COPIES lo E For epproal !,Forpurur E As rcqucsrcd REMARKS: DESCRIPTION Orfc ?,,*o, t&, hsv:rtl,J, E Approrrd as submhrcd 0 Apprcrtd rs norcd ! fur rwiryrrd commnt E Ohcr - E hr )our infornurrion E Rcvirc rnj rcrubmit E Subnrir -cooics for dirlribstion' DATE +.t7.m tu Ate* tl.r4 nAe ,mr, t..l,r{rrrd,l | €.+r be *Etae FrrJrgsfg6, tE\^BNl. TE sG-r.Lara tcj AIr,Jd,W ?b4 +l+,r4 €t**t]F,rtu. 6t;rt?'Earr Eala' crr -Cc. tgeral a*t- qro,aA F. -\.,,frr{, I breac*aA trrtL +tarJ tl*l tc-+l. Vtatr.r'a,glg,a ttJ .3t=,&. CoPYlo: Fd tAr"rsure SIGNED )z-;\-2,,-=,- NO, At, A9 I*tter Transmutal DATE: tft, La,'u, /l ,OB NO RE d*tbr/-.J ft4e.a*-';ta,t- l};;'a**1 rl., al Arvid Elness /rchrrecrs Inc- Butler North Building, Suite 200 510 Firsr Avenue North Minneapolis, Minnesota 55403 Telephone 612 .339. 5508 ;rllTtTl-tffITl'fIT)!!t_r_utlila!.!_ rtta.,tllrmtrmr lir: ?Te*- 4^soo., 7,-r^rurxrt Cr*1 q tu &4.aa*, We arr lrcldin8 )ou anachcr, O Shop Drawings E Copy of Lcucr E Spccilicutions )(Prim. Ll Plans C Change Ordr'r- coPlEs lo REMARKS: One Fr"l,s, tfua. ?-usJ-+cJ? E Apprcrcd as rubmincd tr Approrcd es notcd X hr lpicrr rndcommn El For lour infornrarion _ E Revise anJ resubmit D Subnrit -copics br di$ributon DATE NO +r+n AI, AE lfu. ?rfla Lrar,lrrr6rf t 'l4J he e*1uatar fE+rr9{63 tsvrEv. COWTO:34 1ilr.z"rde SIGNED I \-c,* Q For approral !, For pur usc E As rcqucsrcd DESCRIPTION fl Orher - + I v.a Srau 2 t Z.b I ---..r Wl Ct Uj ?AJfop tl.cE &,aool}" '' --...-- FLlrgl, vra nt, tr.LuFrrlAl ?1t.6 i I 4-- \, na' ! LrrSrt /.?a&aea3 t !fi I I t I I I +L I i I! L/ J 1 I II+i I-+ ------- O CA &uat ?J*nca+) d^orclaaltlo 7ur3l. M{l?a rrtfaEa, pa{rr-,5 -1o+r,?co. l-l ! I i II i II 1/zA 5ra u\Aa- t i3naXe Flan ata"npeJ OIAItUSSB,I tk- PROESSIOa.IAI- X,lDif,{- n ,"* j i - -r- I I oi f.lJ- a .T-:----r'. + 2t.o a It' rO { + $ J| +LJ I I I i II *o w.haatb -..--r fLr,rgl. lvr{rrE , fLLrrr.tl!.LfB:r z)^tolvra tiltaf- I r ut. Srcu 2 I t'" -.,t Srau 1 -- t*E ;t-,.t i'I1a*) },*ar.,,.,re- irrrol, wn,fl, t faFr ,: ' , - a. -.4-C.tl.,rr?. ?tal a I I I I J.' t I II 3i3naXe Pton tlo*npeJ Qp. tB . rq Bq G*r+rsBl nmslo.ill'qrnr.E ]l.tat aDrFi -- GSirLi I nI PA,EI - ei +, ,zcot 4 I I .tl tlrl lll.l oTY (I o{x{ ssEtt T{ORTH SD€ R.BLIC PAE(NG LOT s|lt PIAN I hl U O 1,or& Itr? (D€Lr\.to.(D tlt\aloa EI{.Id 3 u i h.to.?, i. ,ir aIEI Ii- cG.a. !-'- -.t-_lrrtit-. tttl! EXHIBIT 4 Locdbq I t' ETII. E MI E IOrrSo II foClD-slgn slr€ti t of -l--- - D !r!l I letrl^(E PASi( ^PAAlliExl B-Cfl 0111il+il].1++1111fl IIIIIIIIIIIIIt *l ?-'- a'/L l'i -1'l; Jhrt Ridgeview Center 470 W.78th Sr. E,raYril.t : i F-:t . n-.(ij- Bkr r! Iz. r.lAr<-x f(,i .--(, a-tr.-r, D. c.,r,I ts !,rr?i v.|: i- _:Yr- 5-rLt .t' Ic-\2 11 C:a v\f. sar..' EC-5 5" .h'arrD -'}E 5r./LE (E Br1-rop\ '5 $ll'LVG.T rr-ji r,\aJ, C-+),j tryc:-r'; r..le.J -rE, 't sa-^.-c. i' . l'- o Business Health Services Thles & Talle Chanhassen Dental Dr. Fiedler, Orthodontist Goldstar Mortgage .6iro',,"tr.* |.- ,r; ,,."..,.,*-t -A z ::o .i "l - z < -- o a. -oo r lil 2 -'.; W ! t c ( oi c ti 1EtI5 6'1 9lzittl :E$$ ,i ,* I f d ID il,J2 3_1\.5B ruat r€n ProPoeql I 5 -112 I - D Ccc)orr rrl i li ,, i W: 0"n i E :r !i i:,:! , :3!.i:t - :l <q t < -: cr.rroo r 3i! o l- OrJz i:_r I a 3 ')2,JEElt t;] ,J 4 > 1--ad12lIrX 1r 5s!P sIi r{ow Si 3 n Pro 5 _11 ! {4)AL 5'frral--+-- ga.rAa\ 2r o',lrya\7t' 3'4 I -----+€414/ A}.€i:E +.r r,r*tLy r.Err,Jcr< Ertsnnlq S.f, Sl.\, A'C./\aaeT rrct-ro tetE}"or,e l\..1!, illit.c-eD U- (aI s..FEa-ErE F^ccs _ s.,r.JJ E^ruT -6 F\^'ra.r+ Fdr z c..5 $rr..J!s, \/ uJ{rrsa4}}t u,lLr:a (,t <qUr6t sPec'G,ei> ^lo'rel eEiaJe? r.\u6.r Bq cur a.r 'roP q !A]rrcr,\ A'r sE^ r\ ,-,...r:-'r rle! rAr :nidgeView Center- 470 W. TBth Sr.Aru! ER ICAN FAM'l ItY srA,( rdc.(^fTBL t-vas .o.! AJJ|n, elcx€R U€Lbeslo e- s,ne Arb ATlacH<D '16 ? .r's€ \-/-e _ 5il<gtEJ-". r<q lr(r*r Ls\ts Cr:to.rrS eurn. uJ -vJuteeFl.'lrrstlt.rpc€' r 5 Elrsn B6)( !rrq CDFJ ,{ V|NJLraJRqJ\Jq \o Y^.rcp I!.rrteo ,tLS ^l-un. LJ- \^JFtt (oFl'\Dr 3nLt.1 .oP!riiA :a1\ r5L6 z a) P$a)t;p,'ca} ian) I ' City Council ltleting - rc {, 1990 tX- '-r-- snE pLAx HtExDnExr ff{o srolAGE nEvrEu, onlonssEx paorEssrilAl urrLDr{G, gEsr 78TH STREET, 8OB COPELltilD ilID SNAD JO{IISOI{. Jo Ann OLsen: fha rhola rlason u!!r! brlnging this back tn front of you is thatthe applicant first ues cooing thrOugh rith e sign veritncc to rllor onc of thetlnants to have aora than one rall sign. than rc lootad ovar through ihe filcsrhat the sign plan that res epprovcd. rc found that thlrr rer! tro diffcrcntplans. One had 3 signs on the aouth tidc rnd A on th! north end thcn there rasrlso a plan that thored 5 tigns on both :idas. fhts ls rtght ln thc rlddlc ofrhere...plannars changad tgain rnd it,3 not real clcar tn th: rcport or thellinutes th.t this is tctually thc rign proposel thrt lrs rpprovcd by thc Citycouncil and Planning coraission. ta did get r llttcr froe thc rpplicrnt shouing correspondancc scnding thc plrn rlth thc s rigns on both rldcr end the plenning Coraission Chairorn Ladd Conrad rcrarbcrcd epproving S on both sides. So r?'ra Just tind of bringing it back ln tront of you to vlrlfy thrt thls la rhat rasrpproved. Not to hava hie prove rhrt rc lcel that Jr r!nt. fhc plenning Coonisslon reconncnded thc 5 on both sldcs. Councihorran Dialer: llhera did the confusion cone in? llayor Chaiel: Uas this . dr.ft pl.n or e fineliuad plrn? Jo Ann 0lsen: No, thcy had to 90 through en officiel tignzfacir phn. Thcconfusion ras that thrr! r!r? plans tubrittcd end thc rcck baforc the prrnning coohission packet rnd thln ther! rera plrns subliltcd the rrak of tha prrnninl Connrission packet .nd I balicva nhat heppcncd ras the plrns that rcrc brought bythe developer shor,rn during the discussion hrd tha s signs on both sides. i just don't knou if it ras avar reallv clcarlv pointcd out i; th! rrport th.t thrt raslhat ues being approvad. I,! not doubting that lt usn't rhoun. It.s just enrof those things that right hava bccn riesed elong thc rly ao r! Just rant to 9:tverification. Councilaan Johnson: A typical l3th hour tuboission. Uhcn rftrr thc prclcts hava gone to Planning coanission, thcn r nar act of pl.n3 cole in. rirrt nau tetof plans. Parsonally I don.t rcoarbcr the 5. f r:leeb:r thc 3. 3 on onc cidernd 2 on the other sida. I thoucht it rec tind of unusurl thay didn,t put 3 onboth sides. r don't rcneabcr lhe 5 rDd 5 but r don't hrva r pioblcr riitr s rno5 rctual]y. r'rv r?norv rcaanbcrs th! 3 and 2 but that rrs r long tli! ago to tryto raoeaber. itlvor choiel.: lf lt gocs to thlt s. rakr aurr thrt thcrr'r rro ror! i,han onrbusinass nlnr plr .ign on th!r! .3 th. plannlng comlcsion rccorrcndid er rcll. I councilaan Johnson: 3o thet rerns hr crn only hrvs s burtnasla ln thrtbuilding ,hich is . prcttv big bultdiag for only s buslnesrcr. ea to;; .s thraqu.r! lootro! ts not ovcr our, r don't hrvc e problcr rlth 2 n es pci rlgnprrsonallv ei,thcr rs long eg rc tnor cxrctly thr circ of tho3! rignr'ind-ril oft. rudden u? don't 9.t ron! la foot trll by 20 foot rldc rtgn. fl-t ii;r-l[ornthare ere nicc ltttlc rlgns. tlrvor choiel: Do!3 lt rprll out thc txact rlre of thoec clgnr? r'vc rud thir. Councitaan Bo),t: 12 lnch l.tt!r3 rer ln thb. 28 ) a City Council fieeting - ! {, ltgo councilnan Johnson: As frr rs the cl:rrncss of it, hou you b.cklight thasesigns too aakes a lot of diffcrcnce. r lsrn you cen put'ln rona quirti iictt"back there you knotr rnd lrou.cln rard 100 yrrds ar.y. you cln rcad at nict,iuith. I'd.rant these sisns.for the night tiaa cidc of lt vcry iiiiiifii'O."tfitto uhere the/ rre raadablc but-not glaring. Soeahou ra.va goi io "pecify tf,.tpart of it becruse you c.n rcally thror r lot of lrtt.g! Oc[fnO ttcii-ini Ocvcry txcessive. Itayor Chniel: Ue havr to ba tansitivt to thc rerid:ntirl pcopl:. Councihrn Johnson: tspecirlly on thr north .idc. Iah. Councilnrn Boyt: If rc trkc thc lightr rcrort hcrc tn thc rett thopping c!nt!r,or-the signs. thlt signag! rtkcs tcnsc. tt,. aot over bcrrtng Uut ii-iiinforrative. Yrt lt's set, Oosh rhrr lr tbt. tOO feet off tlr-iirciti- t5 fretoff the strr.t? t{or r.,r. trlting ZO f.rt dff thc .tr..t or tesi to-iitint.rrstld ln hor you,rc aolng to hndlc thet. councilrrn Johnson: r'. v!r, tntlrastad ln your calrlng thb e rctrll. r.vcrluavs thought of this rs r -profcssionrl bullding rherc-yeu - l1-t.ri-cnein.rr".nd dentists rnd doctors rnd rtuff llt! thtt. .I totrlly rgrcc. Counciluoarn Dioler: Proftssionrl, buildlne? Councilran Boyt: llaybc rhilc ),ou guys erc looking at it t can rtetc I fcu concerns end then Brad-or aonlone crn rr3pond to. Lilc mny thlngs dorntoun, once vou sr! theD it alrrys r!!rs .s though thcrc,r aorr aort of rurprisc ebouthou it looks. t rcnenber telking about tha n!!d to put this ro elosc to thcroad uhen re built it. Uhen f sre it therc, onc of r), conclrns is thrt rhcn reput sisns on it, it's 9oin9 to look cvan closar to thc rord ro rd like to t.uiyou talk .bout that . linut. rhcn you 9!t up to rddrcss &rucs. fhc othcr oncis, as r rhat r vould think of rs e prof:ssional building in torn, in driving byprofessional buildings norrallr rhet r cec thrr. is e nrie for ttri Ugitaing ina'r don't see arch individual trnant listcd. And r knor you'r! not gotng te-1!"{each one. You're anticipating 30 t.n.ntr in therc end ihcrc,s no iay you'rc 9oin9 to get that aany on there. so t sr! a conc.rn rnd you've refarrtd to itor sonreirhere staff did thlt this ras a rctail office ccntir sort of thing is-versus e prolessional building. I,i Dot quitc sura rhat tha diffcrcnce is inthat. I can tell ),ou th.t ey cxpectation! .re . littte bit diffcrcnt than rhatI'a seeing shape up in teras of tha signs. I,l e littla t gucss tha closenessto the road gives that building . tr.rendous irp.ct on the icst of dorntoun andIo rondering if signs don't rate it r rittla !or! epparrnt ,!t than it rlraadyis. -r understand vour tenant'6 dcsirc to hrvc their nrres out in front of I peop]e. r'h iust Dot rlal coofortable uith lt so rd ouri like to scc if you've, 90t anv artist randerings or rnything thet llll eake this r lttttc rorc cliar.I I'd sure ]iLe to see theD. 29 L Councihan Johnson: Ue havc aorc prlnt3 Dor. Councihonan oioler: Ihis is thc officiel? Councilmn Johnson: Ihis ls the 3 rnd th. 2 vlrsion. + I ag City Council lleeting - -r : {. ll90 Councilran Johnson: Yca h. Councihonan Oi.ler: fhat ras thc mac of tha projcct. Councilran Johnson: Ihis is thc first t.lk I'v! haerd of rlt.il. tt'd bcinterasting your coDoents tftcr€. Brrd Johnson: lly n!D! ls Brad Johnson .nd I tiv! .l ?4?S Fronticr frail. tthink first of ell for thc record f r.nt to polnt out thrt tt,r our fcaling thrtthis perticular progrli has baen rpprovld rnd r: hevc r nurbrr of pcopl: that havc bccn through this recting rnd htve vlrifild thc ftct thrt tlpsc phnr rcre subhitt?d both to the Plrnning Corlission end to thc City Council ud rerc epprovad rt that ti.e. It's elso our f:cling thrt thls rhould :trnd on thclr oun but in case ge do hrve a problra herr. thcn rc'Il probrbly hrvc to tppcal becruse re fcel thrt th?), lcrc lpprovcd. l{.vr gonc ehcrd rlth our ghns for thcbuilding. Ue've gonc rhctd besed upon thrt rpprovrl tn attracting our tlnantslnd re've included that in our lcrscr for our tanrnts tnd thtt ir eort of rhcrc ue're at. I believe you hava llttrrs froi th? rrchit:ct thlt thrsr plens, you received tha original pl.ns on Frlday. 0n fionday rc had rdditlonal slt ofplans. As the planner thrt rlsn,t hcrr thet hrndlad those phns, h! crn't rnsuer that. Ue cerried those plens through. C! did not lnor thcy r?rc not inyour packet but re suboittad thao lach tire r! prlslntld th:r rnd thay rer! not an issue at that tine. Ihat's kind of rherc u! r!r! vcry :urprlscd but t could understend hou it could happcn thrt for rore raeson thay nrvrr got into thapackets because thay rcr. herc fror day one. 0n friday thc l{th. Th! nlxt tlonday they uere hara. fhey rara in Stcve's hrnds. ?hrt rack r. 3ubrtttld 10. There's a receipt seying that th?y r!r! hcrc prior to thc p!,tnnlng Corrl*ion Beeting lhich is easily 30 days beforc thc Council trlting. |lou rhy lt didn't cnd up in ),our prcket I don't tnou. ?ou knor rc don't grt thrt part of th!packet. All re do is get the lettlr. So thrtrs kind of rhcrr re erc. Rrlrtiveto uhat the signs uill look likc, I.d like to hrve Bob Coprhnd tddress thrt issue and then nuarber ?, rhy is this building or docs tny butlding today nead signs end ue're actually crlllng it I profcssional rarvicc ccntcr. I,d llkc to have the lolks that ara thc t?nlnts of that bulldine exphln thrt tnd t?,v! got Oan Anderson rnd John Jacobscn hcrc to cxphln thc nccd ln today.t trrkotlnguorld uhy this type of building nceds this ttpr of signs. f elso rent to point out that rny building ln thc dorntorn district hrs thc rlght to have ISI of lt'sfront of it's building in signs. fharc lt no rcstrlction rclrtivc to bclng Iprofcssional building or rhatcver lt 13, you havr a right to htvc I c:rttlnrrount of signs and up to l5l of thc front of thc butlding tnd thrt.r ln your ordinrnccs. fhis partlcular bulldlng 13 ,.5t of thc front of thc buildtni lnsigns. As to lhy thc buildlng lr clo:c to thc rord ta lt tr. thrt rrs ercquirelcnt of thc City durlng thtt ttre. ff you look rt eny of our prcvtour auboissions of tha.trpa of buildlng rc nntcd to con3trucl. rc hrd tt-brck rmyfroo thr strlrt .nd tt'r just thcrc end thrt rr3 rcqulred bt thc Glty rt.ff orphnngrs. At thr tlr! thlt rr rent through thb proccse, thty tndicitcd thrt rerhould rdd cotor to tho bullding rnd rtgns. ft'. not thcsc 2 p.opl! her.. thrtsigns uould be vcry .dvrntrgrouE to thlr bullding bcclusc tt rould rdd rorecolor. rhe signs thrt rc'rc thlnkrng rbout uslng erc ldcntlcrl to rhlt .rG lnfoyn Squ.re. fhay'r! not thr bie rhltc llght brck llt oncr. fhcy're Indtvlduellrtters. Sonc yill bc colorcd rnd If you lool et tt clorcly...to livcn lt uplnd thrt'3 rhere "e rr!. Bob. do ,ou rent to dcrl rlth th. rign iasui ticctfz 30 : t a a City Council tleeting - 're l, 19t0 Councilaan Johnson: yeah, f'd think you'd u.nt it uniforD. llayo:' Choiel: I'd essune that thcy'd .lso go off rt e :paelfic tlac in thcavening. I' Bob copeland: Lct ae just try to clarify rhlt r!'r? rerlly trlking ebout herc because it doesn't sound likc cvcrybody understends ell thc lssucs, .t lcast therav r do. re hav! tro closely ralatrd issuas that ra'rc rsking foi. one is thenunber of signs- ue rant 5 on lrch tide of tha bullding. rhai rould rive us,as Brad said' 7-5- r guess ve calculrted it vest2rdry. rt's Just r little bitunder 6t of the face of the side of thc building so rgain re lrnt st. ltc alsoDant the abilitv to allol ! t?nrnt rnd tharc !rc tro tlnrnts that rent to havo one sign on the louth sidc end one on the north sldc. llor thasc rigns, you cannot ph,,sicrlly saa thcsa rigns rt thc aar! tire ro thly f.c! opposii:-dircctions. so those arc thc tro lssucs. l{or thc phnning corriision celdokay. You can do that. Thcy tlso rddad thrt thcy didn't itnt to heve ror: thrnon! trnant on r sign band rnd re 9o elong rith thrt. fhrt's otay. So that,sbasically the issue. ltor,, thlsr tign ptnib rr: Z fcat high, Zd icct long rndthe nunber of lctt:rs and.thc.rount of thc .ign prncr thit-is tercn up iepcndsoh the tlnant. Tharc right be a tenant rith r four lcttcr nrre or thiic rightbc sonre that hav. tan), lcttrrs lite Chenhrsrn ttcdicel C.nter. ftc iinant ifftdecide vhether it's lit or not lit but rc understrnd thrt ra havr to tireindividual Ietters lhich la,rc rilllng to... councilaan Johnsonr Id think ,ou'd rrnt thcr rll lit or nonc ol thcl lit. Counciluonan 0inler: Absolutaly. ft has to be uniforl. I Bob CoPeland: Ue could rrr.nge that. Councilnan Johnson: Is thera going to bc r letc hours out prtirnt llth Chrnlledjcal event ua] I y? Bob copeland: r think if vou hold that qulstion. thclr rcprls?Dtltiv: cln giveyou the lnsuer. Councilnan Johnson! Bacausr thcn turning tt off my not you knou. llavor choiel: r hrve e qucstlon. uc trvc onc of th. rcrbarr of thc plennlng coonission here. Brirn. do vou rcrclber dircussion at th.t prrt tcuiri-itrt rng.nd r'o rcading son?thing hcrc fror-thc phnning colairlon icctinc-or nay andrnd Ennrings aovcd tha phnning Coooission rccomend rpprovrl ot ifri ifsi-ellouing 5 signs on thc front end S rlgne on thc btcl for . tot.l if-i5 :fcnslnd racolncndad rpproval of thc srte plrn A.rndllnt rlth th; conditlon thatthrr! not be rore thrn l.businc.s nr.r p.r algn brnd. ft aty. hcrc you'iccondcdit. Do you r:cell thrt ditcu:rion? Brirn Brtzli: ycrh. The dlscurcton res thtt thcy dldn.t croud nuacrout nlrlrLnto crch individurl sign rls th! ltt.nt of th.t condltton. rt thc tiic r don'tbeliava Brad or enyonc else hrd r eroblcr rlth thtt. lla),or Chniel: Is thcre rny othar discu*ton? 3t Eity Council fieeting - nr ar tgt0 Councilran Boyt: llell yaeh. I think tha ride of thc building thlt frccs ihe.partrent building, rhan thosc busiocsscs .r. clot.d, that light thould bc off. Counciluooan Dialcr: f agr!.. tlayor Chaiel: Yeeh, thet r.s thr point thrt I brought up. Councilhan Boyt: fha onas ftcing raln Dtralt, f guess I don't brva ruch of a conccrn lith that or !s ruch of a concarn bcctusc th! onrs oerr h2rc f bclicve.r. on rvery tira I9o by ao that could bo Just prrt of rrin atra?t. llayor Chriels fhcy'rc rll golng to br thc a.!! 5 tcn nts in th|t gerticular buildine. Thay rould noraall), hrva those .yncronfu.d onto . ttilr rnd thcy could split it but it's probtblr bcttcr off tf th!), hed thcr both eolng off et a spccj fic tile. Bob Copeland: Could I arka I point hcrr? I don't think you quita understrnd uhat ue're talking about. fhcrc lrc trro tcn.nts noy thlt havc :rid thcy mnt to hrve signs on both sides. Nou th! rar.inder of th? tanrnts rill probably only have one sign cach. Eithcr on thc north sldc or thc touth sida to rc'r! toingto have aore than 5 tlhants. elright ro Dr. HaIl ls r dantist for:xeeple end lr..- he has signe side ort he goi ng to r,ra n uhere his pl t hese ne dica da ot hetit ace lbu Icase end hc's going to hav! ona rign. Only onc algn on oncr. And ha's problbly 9oin9 to rrnt it lit and he's probablyIit into thc avcnings ro Propb rill drivc b,, .nd sc!'thrt,sof business is, I think if you trke a close look rt .oee ofildings, this is not only e redicrl building but lf you loot at thetu, you can see aany 6i91s ldcntifying othcr businas3as.nd things that 90 ort. Councilnran Johnson: So if he ulnts it lit hc should bc on thc .trrlt sids because at night ther!'s not thlt lany ploplr running through thc prrting lot. Bob Copeland: Corrcct. 8ut r? only hrvc flvc on tha atraet aldr ao not everyone's going to bc rble to bc on th? atrclt aldr. Councilhan Eoyt: tlell you'va ccrtrinly arcn aorc of thasc bulldlngs than Ihrve. The oncs f.v! r!an, thc profasslonll .rts bultdings hava noi hrd lttsigns that .re 2 f.et high end 2a leet long on thr front of th4. Uruelly you have to 9o through soD? sort of cantral antrrnc! lnd ln thrt cntrrncc is adiractory and it rlll hlvc roor tO3 rnd rhoevcr'a atra la tiGra. Bob Copeland: Ar! you frattltr rlth Southdrb ttldlcrl buildtne? Councilarn 8oyt3 Urll I hrvrn't b;cn tlrcrr ta qrltc a tong ti.r. 8ob Copeland: Th?r!'D r florrl thop. Drug Stor!. tlt thorc burlncr: hrv:signs outside. llor llso. our .lgns ron't D!c.!s.rlly ba 2{ fcct rldc. Thrt trthr lidth of tha sign prnal. rhc becklng boerd thrt thr l.tttr. rtll bc rountld on. councilhan Bovt: okrv. A! t right rn the undcrstrnding th.t th! llttlr. ron;tcxcaed 12 inchcs hieh? 32 ?+aLi : It City Council iceting tune a, 1990 8ob Copeland: No. tc don'l lnor rhare thlt rcstriction cela up. tc,rc lioitedby the height of tha penel. couhcilian Bovt: Brad rnd r rourd disegrce rbout lhc point of rhy the buildingis sjttins so close to the.rord.. uc cri :iy-iiit." thc city rcquircrent rnd reuess.r'tl accept rhat prrt-of ii. ria pari thit r hva ao;.;iiii;iii,ith isrhy did the.Cit,, requirc t-his. It'r baciusi iii" too. .p.rt*nt bulldingsitting back bahind it rnd b!tr!.n ttris-Uuiiaiig,c ptrking nccds end the.partDent building's prrking nccds, you couldn,I pui It eiyrhaii if"".-- Bob Copeland: fhat's not corrcct. Councilnan Eoyt: okry, tcll .! rhy thet bu[dlng,r out closc to the front? Bob copeland: r'lr tall-vou. Tha rcrson tt's out clos! to thc front tr bacrusethe City staff end thc Ci.ty consultenilpiainiig-icqu"stcd that it be out n.xt tothe road and rhe reason didn't.r,"r. rnyiiioe-i; l; ;iih-;"i'iiic-itiliii.n u,.ydid not sant to see c.r3 parkcd in rroi.,t oiitis-briiii.l;;;ut.ir..j, on781h. They did hot r.nt lo fiava r rt reat rcrpc-i hat ,.a cars ln vier ell th:tine and thcn the buildiogs bect rrey f;;a-a[; iir..t. rhcy u.nt.d to hrve astreetscape that is siailer to lrn), dountorns-rherc ttrc Ouiiair9.-iri-ri9 t r upnext to the road. In this ctse itis tbout 30 i."t_eray. ft,t not right up nextto the road but rhey untad ir rtghr up-io iic'pirrine'i. ii ir,.-io.ii',iio.screened fron 78th. rhet's tha rtason. rc ua'prins'"iit-ir,J'ipiilii.]]. Cornciliian Boyt: Uell f rant to foLlon up on that tn r rinutc but rho,s JohnJacobson? John Jacobson: Right hcre. councilhan Bovt: 0kav. t'rr.-Jacobson. rh! rlttlrs l r be epproxirrtcrv t0inches in height and rc enticiprtc ah. .i;r;;;'io uc vcri-pioi.l.iiiii-ioori.g. John Jacobson: ...lould hrva l0 inch latttrt. councilaian govt: end so rs Ursulr acntioncd,.you,rc thcn ilplyrng thlt r! a.yhrve sone t0 inch lattcrr ud torra il iii,f, lctiars. John Jacobson: IaIl you ron't bc tblc to grt . a{ Inch l.ttcr. Councilnrn Bo,,t! lB inch lcttcr, rhrtcvcr.. fhir is rully rhrt ,ou rrnt to do?you uant to hevr that ltnd of vaihncc rn ah.-[[r;;;;iilii"". Brrd Johnson: rhat's cxrctly rhrt re hlvr_on rorn squrrr rnd tt,s lx.ctryuhet...on *nv of tha prcsrniationr thii anu ric-irrl-I;;il; iienncrr did onsigntge tor tha dorrntosn coltunity. Councll.rn Boyt: Right, I rcteaber thosc. B.d Johnson: rhay lantcd...rnd thcn tore vlrrlncc rn th! latt?r. rnd thltraI bccone ! st.nderd. rf you diivJ 6i-tiiiiif. illc...hrvc rll thorc rlsns endI !|,:r"c in rhc proclss.it cr,"icini't'iii-io et4 thc bugdins I tltttc btt aorcI rifc. That's th! trlnd rn tieniel.-'-ii,r .re"tty th. prlslnt.tron thlt Brrb 33 tity Council ll..ting - .n! d, l99O Dacy rnd the prst phnners did ud ra'va tria bands. Ue don't hava signs 9oin9 .ll over .n rnd logos uithin that standrrd. o atry rith consistcnt rign hen tha ability to havc color dtdt Counciloan Soyt: Uell if you'rc tclling .. lt,s golng to be llkc rhat.ua seeover here. Bred Johnson: tle hop! it is. 2 f cet dor,rn to 6 inchas. Councilaan Boyt: Tel cirrute because f'v building and up in fI rearerlber. I 've hea rcnenber tha consult spots and this is uh get therl is by creat nou this gentlerran i rcoeober? ll oe ebout tha position of tha bullding. tf rc'vc aot just e just had !y concept bloun out of thr r.tcr co hor did ihisront of thr strllt. B?crus! I rarrcrber, a!! fodd rhatrd that I't rrong but t,ll tcll tou rhat I rr.cnbcr. Irnt coring !n hcre end nying r! n?.d this rrny parking at I haard ao lt .ust htvc bccn rrong. The only rry rc canine one lrrge prrking lot betrcen thrs? tro buildings rirds coaing brck end saying thst's not tru. ro rtrrt do you Todd Gerha rent i.n fi already se the ltedica not L'or k u building i nale any slot inbetu t or,rards t h parking fo Point you 3 Ther? ras r varicty of thims. I rltn th! rplrtrlnt building and then tha lledicrl Arts building.nd rlth thc eprrtaent buildingn place, you have to rork off of thet. fhcra ras telk of puttingrts building brck tnd the parking lot in the front but that louldthe people in the lpartnent building looking out thsir rindou to aheir front yard par se of thc rprrtn.nt building. It Just didn'te so jt flip floppad back the oth.r uay rnd you hrve tha prrklng the tuo structurrs. end it got pushcd .n additional tS fret oadray to rllou for rnothar drivc lene back thcrc rnd rcduco thchat access. You have 2 drive lenes rround tha prrklng lot. At oney had one. CourrcilDan Eoyt: Uhat I don't r!D.ib!r coalng out of tt us the city strffsaving that ue uant this to sit up nlxt to thc roed io lt rill chrngi the l.y. Llest 78th Straat looks. Councilaan Johnson: Acturlly I do rcaaabcr thrt but f thlnl th.t ltsjustification :ftcr thc fect. Such rs tha crookcd old ctty hrll. I think thcycrre back rnd said valh. U!'ve donc rhrt r! crn. llor lct'r thtnk of rlrsonsthat it looks good. r think thrt'. rhrt the consultent dtd tn thrt crsr uh.n hec.De out srying this. I res kind of 9oin9 rh huh enyuy et thrt. polnt. Srad Johnson: Jrv, tha origlnrl dorntovn pl.n dr.ftrd ln tt8s, or lt8a, prtorto us doing this aodcl had thrt rholc ridc -of th! rtr.rt rith thc buudings.pu]lld to the strcrt. nnd thrt r!. thr plrh rt th.t tlra.nd th. pfiincrr ttttrcra lnvolvcd ln that rlrrys rrntcd it to be thtt rry. fhcn ra erit beck enddacided that rr had r tenant for thrt .r!r. ..lnl, 6r. Jecobson rnd thi cllnlc.nd th! hospitrl tnd our orlginrl proposrl rls to d!.tgn r buildine iiiit rryrora in th! niddl! end rrn nortVrouth. 8lctutr of thc tnablltty iftcr . yctr.ol us to build on thet sit! bacrusa ro could nit relocrti i;:-ii;;;-;;i b...r..ra could not relocatc fir. torln Andcrron end e rholc bunch of other riaions thrthrc nothing to do rcallv rith thc rtrff. ra flnrlly thrcu our hends up .nd 3ridrhy don't you eut/s tcll us hor rc crn do It end if you toot rt thc dciign of 31 idt rst1iIA ithnt ens eenerrt onl -l Thlt's rxaclly our 9oal. Thosc lcttars vary frorr City Council llr?ting - ne {. 1990 ; tlis particular building, lt ras dcsignrd rround llr. ,lrnson ro rc could buildI right over hio bccrusc re rnticipirtcd th!t, rnd hc,c stlll there. This is houI oany y?ars !90 did re sign th! llrsr? ? ye.re? Z tn t..r. ,go. Ihay'rc Justroving in. rle'rc rbout to lose tfir pr.s.ncc of our min tcnrnis rnd ticy riicJust going to go alseuhere end rc rould not thcn bc rblc to corrplatc thc dourntosn and so finally, I think corrcctly ro. thc rteff cuc brck ritt thisplan because re rere unablc to butld thc phnncd buitding thrt rc h.d rcconnrended originally rnd thrt,r rcelly rhy lt lrrppencd. It,r nobody,t frult.xcept that lrnd rcquisition l,n donntorn rraas 3oa!ti.!s 9o rlou rs you 9u)r3 rrctuarc of . Counciloan Johnson: So thera,s r lot of yrrlous rlaaonr that thir hrs occurrcdrnd it has nothing to do rlth th..i9n3. g!,r. hlrc to telt ebout the rlgns.-- Brrd Johnson: lJe'ra hrppy rith thc my lt loots. Councilnan Boyt: It hasitting there nour and a debated by Brad to chanlo be very consarva t iveput lit signs on therc, thc right ansuer is but signs are not glaring r s lots to do rith thc tigns bactusc thc building's onehol re'vc coDe up rith tho opportunity, rlthough9! thrs! signs end .y point rould be, I rant thcsi signsbacruse tha building ls elrardy obtrusivc rnd rhcn riit's 9oin9 to br !v!n aor€ ao. 6nd so I don.t tnor rhatI knou prrt of th.t rnstar hls got to ba thrt thasettr.ctions to thrt building. l'iayor Chniel: llhat you'r! saying ls you r.nt consistency lithin those rignsBill uhether t2 inch or 16? CouncilDan Boyt: I think f rant thlt. Brad Johnson: Defining th!t, tr hrvc I sign brnd of 20 incher. f think oursign band on the bal.nc! of tha bulldings dounrorn tr roic tiil z-ti i--i.!t rndsohetines it runs as hlgh !s s frlt. gr'v! cut thls brck rnd rcitcd it i..t.Tha reason that the hospitrl hrs t0 tnchas rlgns t3 bacrusc if,ii-[rr-i iot ofletters. Rieht? so you Just c.n't b! hieh rnd lone et aia si; iii..- ir,"r.aay ba sonebody uho just.unts to ba DDS you knou rnd rr.ra only iiiiinc'i[ortfivc particuhr tenrnt. but thosc tcnrnts cltl not .lgn tcrsiJ-ifi[-u".'uiffr,ot oove in thrrc unlass thay hrv: ldrnttlicrtlon brciurc thet his becooa ttratev to aarkating. r think t'rr. Jlcobson,nt3 to spcrk to rrt iuoui-trou'iaportant it is to thc radlcrl prof:rsion todey thet thcy hivc iie*g.-i...r".that's the nrae of thr 9.n.. ft,. corprtltlv.. gler: tiying to-itii riit,in,ue'va acaled doun fror l3r doun ro ? ln rnd rc rcrlly don't-hrvc e ioi-otriens. Councilean Johnson: For on! othlr purpos! t rant to Jurt my onc thlng. ForPublic safcty Purposes rnd pcoplc drlvlng .long thc rord, I.d hrtr to iivc thcrlgns uhere vou hevl to look for thli too hrrd. ?hc rlgnr hevc to ui iuirucrrecnough to rhere thcy ctn be qulckl, rcan bccturc othcrrirc you,re aiiviig ltiethis uhich soac paoph do rnvrey-but no urc alving thcr ruc-h .orc iriton. thcy John Jrcobson: ,rv nrn! lr John Jrcobcon. r'v: vicc prosident of Ridgcvicutledical cerrtar end rs Brrd has cludcd, rc rrc thc mJor tcnani on i["-iri"tfloor rhich consists of thc chanhrs:cn Hedicrl c:ntci rhlch rs oi courei or. 35 + o a : City Council ficeting - .n. a. tgr0 David hccollun end the rssociltcs th.t rc'r! bringing on rith Dr. ttccolluD rndEusiness Health sarvices. r think thc rrsucs hrvc bccn rcll dircussed thiscvcning. I find the definition batrscn rotril rnd prof:ssion lntriging ln theslnse that I't not surc that th2rc's auch rcperrtcnas3 an),!ora betraen retallrnd professional. ln herlth crre, rt trast ln thc hst 10 ylrrs in health crra,narketing has becota, rhcthar thet,t good oi b.d, It,r bccorc thc rcality of thifield. It's crrtrinly .orrt hing that t!'r! sensitiw to. es r tlttrr of frctthat's the rason lr'r! ln chrnhesscn l. bccruse ra'r! vcry arerc of our aarvicelrca lnd the oppgrtunitias thtt this partlculrr corrunity prlsrnts to us. Intcrrs of thc sign.ge itsclf, rr fccl vcry rtrongly thrt r: need to lrevc rignaga on both sides of the building. Rcally on tha routh ridc or on tha str:ct rid!for identification of thc businces .nd on thc north :lde for rhcrc thoscparticular buslncsses arc locrted. Drn lndrrson rho'; the cllnic lrnrgcr Juststertad a couplc aonths brck Just dcscrlbad to rc. ,csterday thcre ras tnclderly rooan that inrdvlrttntl), nttcd tn th! rrong door bectusa rc don't hrvethe signage, th? .ppropriltc algnrgr up ,at. t thtnt for corpatitivr purposcs,for oarketing purposes, for visibility purposls, for rducltionrl purposes, refeel verv stronglv th.t u. r.nt to hrvc rignrga on both rides of thc buitiing. Ue also are planning on cvening hours. Uc rould crrttinly, our prefcrcnca rouldbe that the si9na9e, particulerll on tha atrcrt cldc, go into thc rv€ning, llrthink it's inportrnl th.t rs p:oplc corc to lhc chrnhrssan Dinncr rhcrtai thrtthev beco*! auar! thet ra hlva thc chrnhrssen llcdicrl center thcrc rnd gusincss Health services th.re. A lot of our cltcnts colc fror outtida of thc colnunityof Chanhassen and rs:ll of ur erc euarc in tarkctlng todry, you nrld to crratr.n a!,JareDess tnd rr naed to heva visibllity and paoplc n*d to b. arar! thrtre'rc here. Councilnan Uorkoln: tlr. tle),or? tly aailbox reclly t think hrs rril fronsouthdal.e, st. Frrncis rnd Uaconie end ttcthodist end ao thay,rc rll rarkcting'for ny sickliness in ry housa rnd rc arr dcnying thco vcry rcl,l. But Iunderstand the idaa of larkcting end trying to .arkrt. r think rc'rc ltnosteuibbling a little bit v.rsus 3 on thr front varsus 5 on thc front rnd 2 on theback. r rB conclrnld about tha ncighborr thEt arc 9oin9 to colc ln fror thatrplrticnt complax. rhav're-going to hrvc rorr gloring tigns in tharc. lr! Ju3thad sonre neighbors cooplrlning tbout plttrs dorn tt fH 7 .nd TH al cooklngpotentielly rnd so pcoplc aat cxcl.t:d rbout corothing thlt .tybr chtngcs. tdon't knou if the third floor of th.t thlng'. full yct or not. Brrd Johnson: ft'. full. councilaan uorkarn: rs lt? Tha rtgne rs r largined th!D, t'r on pu6lic rccordrs srvirrs r think thls bulldlng looks batter thrn r thoucht rhcrc it ti rnd lltup rt night rnd sooa of rha trry tonas rnd thc liehtlne end rtuff. rt rould.ppler to re froa thcsc slgne rnd rh.t fu potcnttrllv iroposad thrt tt lsn't 9oin9 to aaka lt look rcrlly tny blttrr but t'r golng to tau: thrt io ihcounars and potlntirllv th? t.nrnt.. oon't r: hrvc lllurlnrtion rtrrrderd. aa frrrs hou bright rnd nron v.rsu. rnything clra? Don.t r! htvc enythlng? Paul (rrsss: Thc ncu sitc alen ordlnrncc docs regulrtc thc &ount of footcrndlcs that cln rppllr rt th. proplrty linr to hrlf e foot ctndle. fou itrit'snot very bright but ,ou c.n sce rorcthlng euitc r uyr off thrt,r bclor thrtcutoff. 0f couro! r sign l. not rhialdld. tt'3 Just designcd to projcci out ro .J 36 tf'3 -J .. crty council l,teeting - ]ln. a, 1-90 it can pcet that half a foot crndle ttrndard and stLll ba found t o bc ennoyingto sorebody rho's trying to 6hep. x Brad Johnson: I think the lnsyer to thrt onc...concrrncd thrt ra riaply turnoff the back signs rhcn the business ir done .t thr .nd of thc diy-rfiiii, to,lrte rould you guys possibly ruh? John Jacobson: Typicrllt utr cvcnlng hours rill and at g:OO but rc erc... Councilean lJorlaan: fn tha turler Arobably not tt rll. Brad Johnson: Not rt rll in thc evenlngs. lllyb! t:oo or to:oo rnd rc courdjusr ir up for rhar rholc...rnd Just .l[c thet i rcaulatio; rik.-;; triri'r rotof ot her rcgu lat ions. councilaan norkaen: Ar! you lorving this thcn at s on cech ride and th.t's it? llayor Chnicl: Yes. Councilaan tlorknan: Okay, is that e prrt of one of thc rtipulations? Brad Johnson:. ue're Just 3aying that,s rhrt rc thought it ras approvcd andue're coning back tnd rrguing the point mying... coun:ilr.an-uorkman: rf ),ou hrva a dcnand for lorc thrn ro trgns erc iou goingto be putting oora signs up? Brad Jchnson: No- lre'rr quit! colfortable. ue'll hava 5 arjor tlnrnts. tlayor Chaiel: f don't knor,r rhcre they'd put thrh lnyiora To!. Councilaan Johnson: In their rindous. Brad Johnson: ...look Like-rlso. !le'r! going to hrvc E ttgns. ta do notrnticipatc, ue't.I probrbly heva ebout lo icnrntr in ti.-UuiiJiig. eir'i of tncDljor tenahts, the second l.rgest trnent in tne luffiing-tl-iii'i"iie-io-hera rsign rnd that's th! ouner. councilnan lcrkaran-: r gurss and r doD't rnor. le crn rll try to trrgina ho,this 9oin9 to all look, ctc. but. Brad Johnson: Rcaanbcr rc hlvc to core brcl :rch re rc do do e rren. u!.rcbrck to scc thesc folks right? .you,v! oot your it.ii. gI,Ji iitil ;rif..re.gcroit. Ihcrr's rll llnds of checks rnd btj,ancct. Councilaan ltorklrns lta litcuhit !e.re 9oin9 to recoaplir Prns out. I don't tnor. It'rebility to proDot! ttself rndfilling the rcquireaant. Hr1 rnd so I think ue lcnt e long love rpproval. to- rce thcr 8red. But f 3ua3a t don.t tnor rcrllyh-by 3 on th: front vcrrui s on th: froni-ini-."- ftthc rhol: mrlctlng qucrtlon rbout r turinlss,-- -obvioucly thry hetr ths rteht. fhcy;ii-noi-cvanf of thclr.rcqutrercnt for ihe rtcn-iquiri-iooi.s.u,, tround thc block on thir one end -l,d llka io 37 I t I city council tt.eting - rc t, 1990 CounciLonan Dirler: lJall I hrvc e fer things thrt I'd likc to lay too. Iguess ry riain concern is that beause it is ro vcry vlsiblc, t don't .ind 5signs on aither side. r roul,d like to sae uniforeity houcvcr rnd if that peans uniforeity on lettcr .izc, t gurss I rould rt 1..3t on the 28th slde. f rouldpr.fer to see it not lit up ln tha brck tt rll. t don't rind tiEhting in thefront because I can s.e, you &nou re cln hrve rcauhtions that siy otiy they have to be off by 8:00 but thcra's invarirbly 9oin9 to bc r brcal in that tndre'Il have thr apartrlnt peoplc ln tcrc corphinlng. Brad Johnson: Raoenbcr Ursula that rhole beck prrking lot,s lit. fhet'e e rclllit back prrking lot. Councitean Johnson: than the sign light s. Strcet lights in thc back p.rtlng lot trc aotng to be corse Counciluooan Ditler: And thcy'll bc in hcrc corplrlning. Bi'ad Johnson: Uell that's r rlquirclant th.t th! City had th.t lt bc vcry rrllit so ue didn't have criae in tha back. John Jacobson: It's.lso vcry lrtc. 8), a:30 in th: cvcning In thc rlntcrtincrnd if re'r: opcn until 8:00, r! c!n't. Brad Johirson: The rcal problca ls pcoplc finding thrir r.y to tha proper phce rnC there's z or 3 plrc?s in thare thrt trc going to be opon in the ovdning.Prilt:a:'ily the clinic is one rnd thc hcrlth scrviccs. Thos! ar! tuo. fha othcronei i Ccn't think.,. Counciluonan Dioler: tthat ar! you going to do rith thosc pcoplc coolng? Ccunciloan Johnson: Are thcy golng to heve separetc entr.nccs? Br.d Johnson: Yes. There trr diffarant lntr.nces. fl.yor chhiel: I think if la hrve for thosr atgns to 90 off rt r 3prclfictire, I think that rould tllcvlrt. that. Errd Johnson: t think by l0:OO or t;OO or soaathlng titc that. It ts 9oln9 tobc uell lit. t lern th!r!.r golng to bc e lot of cendLc ponar beck thcic Justfroo the lights in thc ptrktng lot. Don Ashi,orth: fhcrc tr uniforlity ln tcrrs, rhcn re had firrt ttlkcd tboutrignagc ue rer! concarnad r thlnk rtth thc polnt thlt Gounclhcebcr 0tllar.a.ttrDpting to bring up rnd thrt's tha unlforrity. rhe lly thrt I!3 built ln rlsin thc sign bands thcasalvcs ro thlt'r e vcry dirtrnct, cr.ct araa. llr'vc urcdthrt s.tr! conccpt rith the R.tril Urst trct rnd elto rlth f.nny.3. Ior rlthinthosc bands though you c.n glt diffcrent rlgnr rnd r lot of thit depcnds rgatn,rs thcy brought out, thc nulbcr of lettcrr tn the buslnc$. So Xcnny'r rfff Uir different siza end I think your Hour Gless clcrnerr 9oc3 on for to fclt or'3oirethihg lika thrt. vour llrj.stv's. But rgrln. th:y rrc rtl controlled toutthin those sign band ercrs. -J 38 City Council lleeting - -,nr {. 1990 Councilnan Johnson: Probrbly diffcr:nt ritcs. having flashing? lc thcrc rny rcrtrlctlons on ilayor Chaicl: Thcsc rre ioing to bc Just ltt.:trongly to t hrt.lo flrshing. Ycrh, f'd objrct John Jacobson: l'ly organizttion, thcy rtll not bc fhshing signa. councllaan uortran: ltcll !d rgrln rovc epprovrl rlth the rtipuletion that th?ybe off in th! rlrr oncc hours lre ou!r. Solebody fllp off thc rlgns. llayor Chaiel: 0kay, therc'r a aotion on thc floor. t: thcre r 3ccond? Councilaan Boyt: f'll 3lcond that. I'er iot r qucrtion. llayor chaiel: Go rhrad. tsk your qucatlon BIll. Councilhan Boyt: Uhert rrc you going to put th. pylon sign? 6s long ls r!,retalking about .igns, ra aight rs rcll flgure out rhcrc ttrit,t going.- -- Bob copeland: uell thrt hrs bccn on the slta plen rnd th!r!'a ncvcr bccn rnyquestion about thEt just to rcfrcsh your ...orr. rhc pylon slgn lt ,igit tt.... Councilnan Uorknan: By tha proposed drivcrry through th?re? Bob Copeland: fhat's corr.ct. This rould br th. proposad drlvcray. And that ras hor high? Jurt off hend. grs th.t frir!,y closaCouncilBan Boyt:to the grou nd? Eob CoPel.and: ft's under 5 frat. Councilaan Johnson: 0h, that'r r ground algn tftcn? Bob Copeland: 0h ycs. Counciloan Johnson: tt's not r pylon tlgn. Bob Copeland: ft'E not r tlsstvr Aroco Otl type ttgn.foot rnd a half htch. t{ fclt utde end... councilDan Boyt: ghlt's golno to bc on that? Bob Copehnd: gr don't tnor yct. Ilayor Chaial: 0kry, re hed e rotlon on tha floor rtth e recond. councrlrrn tlorlran- rowd, councrlren - loyt arcondcd to approt r thr erandrd 3lt:Phn er chorn 6n thc ptens drted tprll t8, tt8t rlth tht'condtiioo ttit itc-tightr on th! rrlr of the butldlng torrrdr th. rp.rtr.Dt Uffdfne bc iurner, offrhen busincss hourr lrc ovGr. lll votcd tr frvor end thc rctlil-;;iaasnanirously. 39 I l= a-t. It'. .pproxi.rtcly r -l CHANHASSEN PLANNING COHI{ISSION REGULAR I,IEETING |iARCH 20 , t99L Chairman Emmings called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m. - IIEI{BERS PRESENT :Tim Erhart, Ladd Conrad, Annette EIIson, Steve Emm i ngs ,Brian Batzli, Jeff Farmakes, and Joan Ahrens PUBLIC HEARING: CONDI TI ONAL USE PERMI OR THE INSTALLAT ION OF A 70 SOUARE FOOT SIGN ON PROPERT Y ZONED BH LOCATED AT 7910 DAKOTA A VENUE . SINCLA R OIL - Sharmin Al-Jaff presented the staffcalled the public hearing to order. report on this item. Chairman Emmings Conrad moved, Erhart secondedfavor and the motion carried- Emmings: Does anybody havethere a mot ion? to close the public hearing. All voted inThe public hearing rras closed- anything to talk about on this? If not, is Batzli: I'lI move that the planning CommissionConditional Use Permit Request *91-2 for one 70the conditions set forth in the staff report. recommend approvalsquare foot pylon of sign with Conrad: Second. Emmings: It says that one of the conditions is thatsubmit an application for a sign permit. Now isn'tThat just sounds peculiar to me. I thought they hadapplication before that issue comes up. the applicant mustthat what this is?to give you an Krauss: Commissioner, no. ActualIy what they,ve appliedconditional use permit beLween you and the City CounciI.need the permit to construct the sign. for now is the They actua I ly Emmings: Okay. Oo they ordinarily do that at one time? Krauss: No. Emmings: Okay. Krauss: They actually doto put the thing up. Emmings: Okay. that if they have apprcival and when they're ready Batzli moved' conrad seconded that the planning commission recommendapproval of conditional use pernit Requ€st *91-2 for one 70 square footpylon sign with the follor*ing conditions: STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss, planning Director i and Sharmin Al-Jaff,Planner I Planning Commission l.leet i ng March 20, 199L - Page 2 The sign may not exceed The area of the sign may The sisn shaII mai ntai n 20 feet in height. no! exceed 72 square a minimum setback of feet . 10 feet from aII property 1 2 3 4 AlI lines. The applicant must submit an application for a sign permit. voted in favor and the notion carried unanimously. PUBLIC HEARING: CONDITIONAL USE PERHIT FOR A RESTAURANT TO BE LOCATED ON PROPERTY ZONED BH AND LOCATEO AT SEVEN FORTY-ONE CROSSIN G CENTER. SANG CAI{ KY. HAPPY GARDENS II . Pub1ic Present: Clem Springer, Lleis Asset PauI Krauss presented the 3501 Mi nnesota report on this Drive S11O, Mp.ls, MN 55435 item. Mgmt , staf f Emmings: Is the size changing? Krauss: No . Clem Springer: Approximately the same size... Emmings: t"lhy don't you come on up to the podium. Paul , does that conclude the staff report? Okay. CIem Springer: Exhibit A, you can see that it was originally down in the end of the center and now it's in space 1o9 and 111. AIso we have the pl.ans as requested by the City of the design of the restaurant here. Emmings: okay, and what is the difference in size? How big are Lhose two spaces together? CIem Springer: 2,600 - Emmings: Alrisht. Is there anything else you'd Iike to Present to us at this lime? Cl.em Springer: No. tle accept the conditions from staff. Thank you. Emmings: Alright, thank you. This is a public hearing. Are there anv members of the public, anyone here that wants to comment on this? Conrad moved, Erhart s€conded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed- Planning Commission Meeting March 20, !99f - Page 3 Emmings: Tim, have you got anyLhing on this one? Erhart: Just what's the status of the landscaping? Krauss: The Iandscaping was completed Iast faII. Erhart: And the applicant is aware that Ne,re basically saying one wallsign as opposed to trdo? Clem Springer: That is moved in the interior...one sign. question.Erhart: That's my only Conrad: Nothing. Emmings: Annette? Br ian? Batzli: In condition 2. comply with? Hho are wethe wording of that. Are !.re tryi ng to say that the appl icant shaltrying to get to comply? I uas just confused I on Krauss: The owners CUP . of the shopping cenLer. They're co-applicants with the Batz.L i : shal I be compl i ed Krauss:plan fora chance her e? Okay. I guess I'd prefer that it read, cross out t.he words therecompliance with and say applicants shall comply with or shall havewith. That's it. Emm i ngs: Jeff? Farmakes: I have no comments. Emmings: Joan? Ahrens: No comments - Emmings: AIright. Does anvbodv have anvthing else they want to talk abouton this one? If not, is there a motion? Erhart: I'I1 move that the Planning Commission approve Conditional UsePermit *91-1 for Happy Gardens. Is there a date on that paul? t^lith somedate with the conditions as stated in the staff report with number 2 toread, prior to issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy, the applicants shallcomply brith all conditions previously attached to other approvals on thissite. BatzIi: Second. PauI is there anything, since you uJere just presented withthe restauranL, is there anything that should be added toto review that or are you comfortable with the conditions a newgive you that are PLanning March 20 Commission Meet i ng 1991 - Page 4 Prior to issuance of a CertificaLe of comply with aIl conditions previously this site. Occupancy , the applicants shall attached to other approvals on Krauss: Mr. chairman, I'm comfortable with the conditions. The plans for the restaurant are pretty straight forward. The only thing that ue Hould Iook for is that there not be a major addition of a bar or something that we didn't anticipate and that's not the case here. Emmings: Alright. We've got a motion and second. Erhart moved, Batzli seconded that the Planning Commission reconmend approval of Conditional Use Permit *91-1 for HaPPy Gardens II Restaurant r.rith the fol lor.ling conditions: AII trash shalI be stored internally.1 2 3. The restaurant AII voted in favor is only permilted one wall sign. and the notion carri€d unanimously- PUBLIC HEARING: AHENDMENT TO SITE PLAN APPROVAL AI.IENDING THE SIGNAGE FOR THE CHANHASSEN MEDICAL ARTS F ACILITY LOCATED AT 47O ],IEST TATH STREET. Public Present: Name Addre S Sharmin AI-Jaff presented called the publ ic hearing 7625 neLro Blvd., Suite 165, Edina Lotus ReaIty the staff report on this item. Chairman Emmings to order. Bob Copeland: l.1y name is Bob CoPeland. I'm one of the owners of the building. If I may, I'd like to review briefly with vou what this is all about. This is the Chanhassen Medical Center. It's been calIed various other things. Ridgeview Medical Center most recently. This is the ParkingIot side and this is the street side. The tr.,o signs Lhat are in question here, this is a directory sign. This is the ProPosed location of that and I don't think the location is at question. I think the issue there is that the sign that we'd ]ike to put in place now is 6 inches higher than what was apparently previously approved. So that's the issue as far as I'm concerned. So it's 5 inches higher. So that's one of the reasons we're here. The other one is that this sign, this is the location of the pvlon sign. It's the 78th Street side and there are two things related to that sign. According to staff, this sign is that u,e're ProPosing is 4 feet wider than approved by Council. And also according to staff, they don't like the idea that we urould say tulo things on the sign. As you can see in your packet Lhere that we hrould say on one Part of the sign we say Bob Copeland Brad Johnson Planning Harch 20 Commissi.on Meet i ng 1991 - Page 5 Ridgeview Cenler and on the right hand side we would say the name of thetenants, American Family fnsurance. Nord first of all Iet,s maybe just takethese things one at a time if we may. I think that the directory signs, weagree with the staff that we are changing what we like and we'd like tohave it 6 inches higher now and we don't think thaL,s a materiaL change and we don't think that's realIy worthy of much conversation and hope that youjust go alons with the sign. tte think the proportions are better and we,djust Iike a 6 inch higher sign. On this pylon sign, we disagree with thestaff - tle maintain that this sign was approved at 14 feet wide and thereason we say that, to document that if you turn to the very Iast page ofyour packet. 39. Page 39. About 3/4 of the way down you see some comments made by me on June 4th there and it says, I said that it,s not amassive Amoco type sign. [.le w6re talking about this very sign. It,sapproximately a foot and a half high. I didn't have the drawings so Ih,asn't sure about that dimension but it's 14 feet side. Then there wereabout 2 or 3 other comments and that was approved. so we don't think thewidth of the sign is an issue. Ue Lhink that it's 14 feet side and that,swhat was approved. Now as far as whether the sign can say one thing or twothings on lhere, I would suggest to you that there are many, many signs inthis community and mosl other communities uhere these pylon signs say morethan one thing. I ca]I your attention to the Fire Department sign. Thatpylon sign out there that has the name of the Fire Department and then italso has a message on the same sign. The sign for Town Square. Itidentifies Town square. rt has a message related to some sales and thingsand then it arso mentions the name of one of the tenants. The Brooke'sFood l',1ar ket is mentioned agai n on the pylon sign as uel I as on thebuiJ.ding. I think there are other instances of that too. The CountrySuites sign, pvlon sign. rt telrs vou that iL's country suites but it alsohas another sign where they can change the wording and I think today ithappens to say welcome. But it says turo things on the same pylon sign. Sowe feel that our sign is in keepi.ng with the other thinss that have beenallowed here. t^le don't see anything in any ordinance that prohibits this.tlhen the council last time ta] ked abouL not more than one tenant on a sign,tha! was regarding the r.rall signs. Not this pylon sign and there wasn'tany discussion of whether there could be one or th,o things put on thispylon sign. So u,e think that we are, our changes are minor. They aretotally within the ordinances and ure suggest that you should vote favorablyon them. Just for your information, on our waII signs we are at about 3OZof Nhat we're allor.red in terms of area. On our business directory sign,He're at 222 of the size allowed, even ulith our 6 inch increase in height. On the business pylon sign, we're aL 4SZ of the allowed square footage.Even with the so called increase. If you buy the increase line ofreasoning. Over aII, we are at 3OZ of our allowed signage related to thisbuilding. tle don't see anyLhing wrong with what we're proposing to do hereat all and u.re see it as very minor differences, if any in some instancesfrom what Has approved before. So that's all we have to say. If you haveany questions, I'd be happy to answer them. Emmings: Alright, thank you. If people have questions, you,re going to be her e? Bob Copeland: one additional I'Il stickthins if I around. Oh wait.may. Just so you I'm have sorry. Let me point outthe proper perspective, Planning Commission Meet i ng March 20, l99]- - Page 6 This drawing shows the street elevation of the buildine and the proposed sign so that's the side. And this side shows the parking lot side of the building and lhe directory sign. That is 5 inches increased in height. Emmings: As far as American band on the bui Idi ng? Family is concerned, wiII they also have a Bob Copeland: No . They will not . their only sign? okay. identification on the street which I think vou can Emmings: That would be Bob Copeland: Ihey wantprobably understand. Erhart: t,ould you On explain that? I don't understand that. Bob Copeland:the Tath Street side? ErharL: You Bob Copeland: mean gol.d? Pardon me? No, it's going to match the deep burgandy co]or. Conrad: It's not a wall mounted? Bob Copeland: That's correct. t,e have all. the waII mounted signs that there's room for and that we've asked for and we're not discussing waII mountbd signs at this time. Erhart: Is the sign going to face directly into the streeL? Bob Copeland: cor r ect . Erhart: How far away from the building? Bob Copeland: I don't know that precisely but it's within 5 to 10 feet of the bui Idi ng. Erhart: okay. And what's the distance between the sidewalk and the building in that spot? Bob Copeland: Approximately 20 feet. Erhart: Okay, and that's going to be grass? Erhart: tlhy not, as opposed to a band? Bob Copeland: Because the bands are taken. There's no band to be able to put it on. I took a picture today and I also cut out that little square and tried to show you the aPproximate size of the ProPosed sign. This is the pylon sign, So you might just Pass this around and see down there. The color would match the sign bands buL that's the size of the Pylon we're taI ki ng about . Planning l.1ar c h 20 Commission Meet i ngl99f - Page 7 Bob Copeland: Don't hold me to thatexactly. Erhart: And that's grass in there? Bob Copeland: IL's grass. From the where there are chips and some sort Bob Copeland: It would have a lightIt's a box, It's an aluminum box.white. conrad: How come you have it facing exact dimension. I don't knor.r then sod f rom the sider.lal k . Conrad: Is it illuminated? Bob Copeland: This sign r,rould be illuminated, yes. The directory sign. conrad: Backlit or illuminated? building out there'sof shrubbery and that inside so I guess Burgandy color and a Iandscaped areakind of thins and backl it is Lhethe letter i ng term -is straight out versus facing the trafficflow? Bob Copeland: I don't think it will fit on the property. Conrad: The 14 feet wouldn't fit, no. Bob copeland: No. Erhart: If you had a preference of having one more band. 8ob Copeland: I don't think there's an adequate place for one. Erhart: WeIl the center band is in the center of the building and thenthere's two blank spots on either side of it. Bob Copeland: l,Je]l you wouldn't Nant to add just one more. Then you'd want to add two more. Erhart: t^lell, we could move one over. In other words, set 6 bands. Emmings: But you did say that American FamiIy has expressed a preferencefor having it? Bob Copeland: No, they haven't necessarily expressed an interest. Theywant good signage from the 78th Street side. tte haven't discussed thatwith them so I'm not really sure - Erhart: I mean, we had one meeting where.you spent a bunch of money and uespent. a bunch of time and went from, I guess we clarified that we needed 5band signs. Haybe what you really need is 6. tthat tells you loday that 6months from now another tonant will come along and say what I really needed was 7? Planning Commission MeeLing Harch 20, !99f - Page I Brad Johnson: I'm Brad Johnson. I Iive in Chanhassen, I think basically bJhat we're, from a conceptual point of view as far as signage is concerned, we have probably 3 types of tenants on main street. You've got the retail tenant such as Brooke's Superette or you know PeoPIe that provide Products to the customer and we're sort of used to seeing them have signs' You have what is called retail service tlhich this buildins and the additional building that will be built there are designed for. Primarily. RetaiI service means I have a service such as insurance in this case or f'm a doctor or I'm a lawyer or whaLever and I'd Iike the public to come to mv office and know that I'm there and I Iike to publicize that. So we have a relail service sector. If you look at your slc codes in your book someday, slc. you,II find that about 502 of aII businesses that are retail oriented are considered to be retail and the balance are service oriented. You know service type of clients that are looking for. Those tyPes of PeoPIe are the type of people that would r.,ant Lo be in the dountown generally. You then have the type of tenant that dbes not need Lo be known thaL he's there or she is there or the business is there. That would be like another one of our tenants in that building called Thies and Talle. They have nothing to sell to the public. They don't care if the public knows they're there or not and so they're no! interesLed in signage. They could be in the industrial park and that's the primarilv Place where vou'd normallv find them. They happen to be an owner of Lhe building so they haPPen to be in this building but that urould be a tvPical tenant that vou'd find in the classic office buildins who didn't care whether anybodv knew thev were there or not. so you have three Lypes of tenants.. Your downtourn location is attracting primarily service oriented retail. Insurance, doctors, Iar,ryers and real estate type of comPanies and retail retail who do need signage. Now when He designed Lhis building' we Put in a sign band along the top that I guess f illed wi!h, we had t!.,o tenants or whatever . t',e probably hit about 5oZ or 60>. of the maximum in your sign ordinances which I checked today to see if they'd been modified since 1986 when thev urere adopted. It simply says in Lhe CBD district vou're allowed 152 of the building wall signage. You're allowed a tenant identification sign of uP to 80 square feet and you're allowed a Pylon sign of aPProximaLely 64 square feet, none of which should be higher than 2o feet. That's quoting out of your ordinances. We've designed aII of Lhese to be muc.h lower and much smaller because they urouldn't fit. I think in answer to your question, ue've not^t gone through the rehole Process of signing that building and it kind of balances. Okay? And it's true we could move one of those IeLters back and forth but iust to move the Ietters is $1 '5OO -OO or $2,oOO.oO. Those letters are very difficult to install and so in addition Lo that, in this particular case the tenanL, American Family has sort of a Iogo. It's that little house that goes over it's name which would be difficult to add to, from their Point of vier.r, to the sign band. Thev could have the name American Family but the logo's imPortant. And so for their point of view they tlould Iike to be ulhere they are. It r^,or ks out nice. As you say. we haven't reallv talked to them about the other one but in mentioning it but, so you have 3 tyPes of signage. In another to another question, will we ever be back? I guess as long as we are below the amount of signage allowed and there's a public hearing Process, because Bob Copeland: WeIl I don't know. If we're back here again next time,you'd have to reconsider it then. Planning Commission Meet i ng tiarch 20, 1991 - Page 9 r^,e're not just applying for a permit, I guess Ne have the right to comeback and request that the signage be changed if it's in properly goodtaste. And that's a right that we have. So as I said, the people thatdrive this are the people that pay the rent and the other alternative isthey just have vacant buildings and that's not our. goal . That's what I,vegot to say on that particular concept. Thank you, Erhart: Can I continue on with the point I was trying to make there? Emmings: Go ahead . Erhart: I wasn't trying to be critical. at all. I'm trying to establish analternative thought that I had and that uas, you 've got a commercialbuilding, multi-tenant. l.re've got one across the street over here in TownSquare. You have a sign band. I assume, I mean do r.le limit the number ofsigns on Tourn Square buildins or do we Iimit it in terms of hou ]ong thesign, the minimum length of one sign is or do we have any limits at aII onthe sign band on that building? Krauss: Town square has a sign covenant package. Each tenant is entitledto one and there is some size restriction but there's a difference thatwe've tried to maintain aII along and that's that rown square is a retairbuilding. It's peop!.e sellins pizzas and gasoline and restaurants. l.Je'retalking about an office building here. t^le,re talking about a heavilysigned office building. There isn,t an tenant in the world, not many thatwon't take a si.gn or won't ask for a sign and if they could get one they'dIove it. But you know when you 90 past the IDS building you don't see 45different signs for whichever law firms are inside. They have a lobby sisnand that's just the fact of Life that they deal with. Another facLorthat's not coming out here is that when this project was approved, as acondition of approval they u,ere required to get sign plan approval . Thatsign plan deviates from the Code. Er hart: From the nhat? Krauss: From the Zoning Ordinance and Sign Ordinance. In some areas it'smore restrictive and in some areas it,s Iess but it u,as part of thearchitectural package that bras approved with this buildins. NoN what we'regetting is playing tulo sides of the coin. yes we have our sign package butthe sign ordinance also al.Iows us more theoreLically so let's get that too.You know, when we argue about a sign being 5 inches taller, that istrivial. It really is. I don't know where to draw the line. If it's 6inches or a foot and a harf or 3 feet. r mean someprace in there r supposeit becomes more significant. t^,e're not trying to be contrary urith this. Itjust seemed to us that. here we had a plan that was approved. Here we'vegot a request for additional signage. There's no guidance as I would haveIiked to have seen I suppose in a sign covenant that restricted signage t'oprimary tenants. That's something that we asked Market Square to do.l.larket Square has signs of different size in Lhe sign package that urasapproved and it's by the size of the tenant. OnIy the major tenants has aright to be on the pylon sign which basically will have lhe Shopping Center name and the supermarket. l.re're comparing a ]ot of apples and oranges wit this one and it makes us uncomfortable. [.le don't know where to draw the Iine basical Iy. Emmi ngs : buildingthe r est Let me ask you something here Paul. The that they're proposing, what was iL? That of the signage? The bands on the buildins sign HAS and in the front of the approved along with so for t h? Krauss: No . Emminss: or is that something new? Krauss: t"lell I guess the way I interPretted what haPPened Iast summer that the attention was focused on the sign bands themselves. How many bands should be approved. There tlas no request. No new information. discussion apart from Hr. CoPeland's comments in the Minutes that I can recalI on the staff report relative to those signs except for the fact it may have been noted that they were there. was sign No that Ahrens: t^Je didn't discuss that at aIl. Erhart: Identification sign. Krauss: Yeah. Is there any new information on that? To the best of my knowledge, no. Emmings: Are you aware, is presented back at that time there anything on those drar^rings that Nere or weren't there any? A1-Jaff: No r there weren't any. Bob Copeland: That's not, Pardon me. If I'm understanding your question, that's not an accurate answer. I think if your guestion was' was a Pylon sign ever approved in any form. Is that your question? Krauss: No. Bob copeland: Then I don't understand. Emmings: I'm wondering if tle have, I know that we talked bands and a directory sign in the back. I don't remember a sign in the front of the building on the ground. about the sign ever consider i ng Bob Copeland: tJell there uJas, one was aPProved and it's just a question now of what size it is and what it says. Krauss: That's true. one Nas approved. Back up a year further Lo the original sign plan that t{as aPProved. There teas a sign in Lhis Iocation. It's smaller than the one being requested now and it only had the name of the buildins, on it. Planning Commission HeeL i ng March 20, L99t - Page 10 Emmings: No. I don't remember it at all either. So there wasn't' were there any draurings or anything shouring this, how should I refer to Lhat sign in lhe front there? Honument? Planning Harch 20 Commission Heet i ng f997 - Page 11 Emmi ngs: That's at that time what what uas I r"ras going goi ng Lo be ask. i,L? to on If it was proposed, did they say Krauss: Yes. AI-Jaf f : This is r.,hat was approved . Brad Johnson: That's a building identification sign but that's not eventhe name of the building. Emmings: Wel.l, the name of the building has changed but so then you don,tneed any sign at aII maybe huh? Okay. AIrighL, He've still got a publichearing open here and let's see if there's anybody. Have you saideverything to us that you'd Iike to say at this point? t^te may have morequestions for you ]ater and we'II give you another chance to talk. Bob Copeland: Thank you. Emmings: Is there anybody else here hlho wants to talk? Brad Johnson: I'd like to say someLhing because...and I object to thisbeing called an office building classification and the signage different.There's nothing in your ordinances to say signage office, it doesn,tdelineate the difference. It just allowed signage in the CBD district andwe buiIt, ue've got Lhe Bloomberg building which is an office buildins.Ne've got signs al, I over that. [.le've got, not that I think they look verygood but there is no delineation. As an office buildins, this is a serviceretaiL building. I was trying to point out that we do have retail typecustomers like an insurance agents, doclors, chiropractors, which wiII soin. a retail building just the same, aLl of which need signage. And one ofthe reasons that t"laconia Hospital located at that Iocation is that they knew they could have signage. One of the reasons all of those tenants you see on the front Iocated at that Iocation is because they were looking fora hish traffic area r.rith signage. l.le recently leased some additional spacein this community to St. Francis Hospital. If you 90 down on ttest 79th,not that f agree with hour Lhe signs look but they have the slandard signpackage for an of f ice buildins in that retail look. If you r,lant to look atthat, they've got a pylon sign and a number of different signs which thest.aff just approved and I wouldn't say it looks good. You can't see theIetters on it but that's office building signs. That's all the samecharacteristics of this particular building. Not in the CBD district. Thesigns over there don't restrict it. I think that that's what you have torealize is that the precedence has been set. l.le have some ordinances thatare here and they approve Lhem as they go along. Ahrens: tlhen American Family moved into the building, did they think theywere going to get a sign on the front? Brad Johnson: They will not move in the building unless they get aI'm saying my business is leasing space and I'm in toun here to makethat the people who lease space from us make money. Ahrens: Hhat's lhe occupancy rate of the buildinS right now? sign. sur e Planning Harch 20 Commission Meeti ng 1991 - Page 12 Brad Johnson: 9Q"". Ahrens: It's 9OZ occupied? Brad Johnson: Yes . Ahrens: And there's right noN you're only advertising 5? Brad Johnson: time because,other places could have a r have t.wo more tenants in there and we're having a hard Ne Hent to American Family and they said look. They had 3 to go potenti.ally and we had to Present to them that Lhev sign. Ahrens: So you're doi ng other tenanLs don't care this alL for American FamiIy because aII those if they're advertisi ng? tenantBrad Johnson: I'm doing it for th€ next tenant in line. The next is a doctor who wiII ask me the same thins. Ahrens: tlhere wiLl you put his sign? Brad Johnson: He may not get one. Ahrens: t,ill he move into the building if he doesn't get a sign? Brad Johnson: I don't knour. But right noh, we know that originallv agreed at the last meet.ing' as you recall, to go to 5 signs and one per. O kay? we had sign Emmings: Yep. Brad Johnson: And reduce the Lotal number of Potential tenants. At Lime we had all the spaces leased. Since that time we've had two tenants fall through and thaL's why we said, we felt comfortable. AII the sPace h,as Ieased and right now we've got ttdo sPaces in there to lease but I think it's a matter of principle. tJe're dealing in retail locations located in Lhe downtown area, t^le're dealing r.lith the standard. tle come back utith the next building you'd better believe is going to have a ]ot of signs on it and they'lI meet code. I don't understand trhen Lhings moet code and tle're not asking for variances why we have this kind of problem. I don't understand Lhat problem. Bob Copeland: The building we're in right now has 3 wall signs saying vi.rtually the same thing on three sides of the buildins and it has the pylon sign or whatever you'd caII it out here, announcing that it's City Hall again. So I mean it's very common and r.le're not sLretching things to the limit at al] with this 30? of what's a]Iowed. Emmings: Sure - Ahrens: can I ask a question? PIanni ng March 20 Commission l.1eet i ng199! - Page 13 Ahrensr In the staff report it says, on page 3r the second paragraph.Staff ori.ginally revieh,ed the signage plan for the l,,ledical Arts Building asa package and did not hold the project to a strict interpretation of thesign ordinance. The ordinance does not aIlow row profile iaentiricationsigns in the CBD. Back up to the first sentence. I realize there,ssomewhat of an exaplanation here because you thought that it r.rould be okayto have these kinds of signs on this building beciuse of the nature of thebuilding. The way u,e envisioned signage to be in the central businessdistrict. Is that rig,ht? Is that why you didn't make them comply strictLywith the sign ordinance? Krauss: r think there's a couple of reasons for that. rt predated both ofour tenures here but in going back through this we had a premiere buirdingbei.ng built in downtown. ft uras built h,ith participation' of the City. Iiwas held to someLhing of a different standard. They were required by thePlanning Commission to come back in for a signage pi.n approval becauseapparentrv the Planning commission and city council felt strongly enoughabout it that it Nas an element that you uanted to have some addiLionaiauthority to control . [^le,re willing to abide by that commiLment and infact that commitment as redefined last year and again, I don,t knoul whereto draw the line on these things. Hhen ue have a-sisn plan that's approvedfor Market Square for example. That package of sign-covenant=, iL's almostIike a PUD for sisns. That becomes the ordin.n"" io. ihil-site. That u,asthe sign PIan approval . They do have the right to come baci as they,redoing to request modifications to that but again, then to say that there'san entitrement because the ordinance which is a notoriously-bad orainance,gives them something more, I have a tough time digesting iiat. Bob copeland: rn what wav didn't the original package meet the ordinance?That's what you say there. you say we,re not allowed a Iow sign? you havethem aII over the cily. Krauss: Not in the CBD Bob Copeland: You don't? Krauss: They're actuarly irlegal in the cBD. Now we may have some non-conforming ones or grandfathered ones. Bob Copeland: tlhere does it say you,re not allowed them? Emmings: I'm going to call an end to this argument. Brad Johnson: WelI the point being is that in the City ordinance, and it'swritten in there, it does not allou a Iow profile. AIi it says is that itcannot exceed 20 feet in height. Bob Copeland: I would think a lower sign.would be better Emmings: Have you presented to us what you Nant Lo present to us at thispoi nt? Brad Johnson: Yep. PIann i ng March 20 Commission Meet i ng t99l - Pase 14 Emm i ngs : i ssue? Erhart moved, Batzl i favor and the motion to close the publ ic The public hear i n9 hearing. All voted in was closed . A]right, is there anyone else here uJho wants to talk on this seconded carried. Emmings: Alrisht, Joan. Ahrens: It seems we've been discussing these signs ad nauseam or we did Iast spring. t^le never discussed and if Lhere uas a discussion it took place before I came here but I don't remember any discussion of any additional signs besides the 5 bands. If vou sav thev were aPProved, of course I believe you. I didn.'t ]ike the 5 bands. I had a real problem with those to begin with. I thousht thev Iooked bad and I think thev do look bad. I think there's no conformity at all in the lettering or in the size or the style and to add another sign on there advertising one more tenant in a way that's complete.Iy, I'm looking at this Picture. In a wav that's completely different from the rest of them, I think will detract from the building. on the other hand I have a real problem with how this whole thing was approved to begin with. ft seems to me thaL they were told a variety of things as to t,hat would flv sign t^lise and I'd hate to think that we're just making up the rules as we go along but it kind of Looks like that to me. I hate the idea of they said the aPPlicants would come in repeatedly if necessarv to keeP asking for signs- I think that's a terrible idea. I think it will make the buildins look terrible. I !^,as told in the beginning, I think we Here all told this uras going to be a professional building. Now it's going to be a retail buildj.ng - I don't know whaL our expectations are of what the aPpearance of this building is going to be. This additional picture that was Presented of, where is this? St. Francis Physician? Oh, okay' I don't think Lhat this is really relevant as far as comparing it with the signage on this other building. I think the signs on this building look a whole Iot better than the signs on this retaii. building. Brad savs that the second building that's going to be built is going to be loaded ulith signs, I think that sounds terrible. I mean it sounds hideous. It sounds. Brad Johnson: I think the poin! is that we are allotled. One thing I object to this r.rhole discussion is vour iob' as I understand it' is to interpret the ordinance. AII I'm hearing so far is Personal oPinions. you wonder why we wonder urhat's going on. You have an ordinance and al] hear when I come Lo Lhese things is we should stick by the ordinance. You're supposed to interpret those. And I Ahrens: I think the Citv generouslv didn't ordinance to begin with so Ne're i.n kind of time - Brad Johnson: In what way? make you comply with the a different situation at this Emmings: have , !o Okay. exPress Brad, you've had your shot and it's time for her not.t to her opinions. Go ahead. PLanning Commission Meet i ng March 20, 1991 - Page 15 Ahrens: I don't see that, I don'L know why they're going through thisprocess for. I agree,6 inches to increase a sign seems ridiculous. Idon't even know why they're going through this process to increase a sign 6inches. I don't know what benefit that has- The outside sign, if it wasapproved and if it was aLlowed by the ordinance, I think maybe ..le shouldapprove it. I don't think that the size. I Lhink the size is an issue andI think it should be approved as presented with just the name of thebuilding, whatever that is now in front of it and not to have additionaladvertising for tenants inside. That's it. Emmings: Okay, Jeff . Farmakes: tJeI] a rot of the comments that she made r think are relevant touhat we're talking about here, r think Lhis was a problem before it evercame in front of us here, Although I wiII agree tha! a matter of personalopinion does get into some of this when you're interpretting these things.Your comment is that's not what ule're supposed to be doing but r do thinkLhat that we should make commenLs that reflect the overall look of ourci!v- r think that's part of, or at ]east that was part of the quesLions rwas asked when r intervier^red for the commission. tJhen it comes to signager question two things and r've heard this comment made over and over again.The difference between a retail building and a commerciar building. ri thepurpose of the signage is identification, as some of the comments lhat you made was to identify the tenant, but how does one distinquish between whereyou've been identified and where you're advertising? For instance, youhave 3 signs on the original buildins that have the same type face.They're a dark band and they have white type. Then you've got a centersign that's in a different tvpe face and a different color coordination. Brad Johnson: Temporary . Farmakes: okay. And you've got this gold one over heretype face again. I believe the American Family logo is Br ad Johnson: No . ln IN a differentred is it not? Farma kes i But thesign but this logo type I believe is iniLself is in red. red. You have the base background Brad Johnson: Not in the sign we,re proposing. Bob Copeland: Burgandy. Farmakes: Not in the sign you're proposing? So it,d just be in black? Brad Johnson: Like ..,prate. rt's a backrit sign. The American Family isa standard red, The one that they currentlv have over on 79!h StreeL is abackl.it sign with three colors. This one will be one color. Two colorsactualIy. It's urhite plexiglass with aluminum over it. The aluminum isthe color of the sign band and then they've cut the aluminum to show whatthe sign, that's hotr the light comes through. you have a layer of aluminumthat's going to be, what color? Planning Commission Meet i ng Harch 20, 7991 - Page 15 Brad Johnson: Burgandy -so it shows through. And And then they put a white plexigLass behind that behind that they light it. Brad Johnson: There's white plexiglass and burgandy in the Iittle look that you see there. It's just the reverse of uhat you Print. Farmakes: okay, so we have uhite letters on a have a r^rhite background uriLh burgandy Ietters? burgandy background? Or you Brad Johnson: It's burgandy on white. You have to see a sign and I agree, that's confusing. Farmakes: The point I'm trying to make here I guess is be some sort of attemPt here to stand out from the other Goldstar Mortgage versus the Business Health Services. that there seems to signs. WeII , Brad Johnson: tle probably r,liII admit at this Particular Point that that was a mistake. I nou know that. It iust got through the whole process and it was in the lease that the tenant required that he have gold Iettering. And we've gone back to him and suggested, because we agree it does Iook kind of funny, that he change it buL that was aPProved both bv us and the city. Farmakes: I think the end purPose of what I'm trying to get at here is that u,henever you have an issue or you have a client coming in, I'm sure Lhat subject to their interPretaLion, their franchise or whatever, thev're soins to r.rant the most identification that is Possible under the circumstances. And urhen you're interPretting Lhese ordinances as to what type of sign you can build, I'm sure on one hand you wanL the best looking building possible. On the other hand, vou want the client. So when we Iook at Lhese type of things, it certainlv isn'L enhancing vour building. I think you'd admit that. You made the comment. Brad Johnson: The sold? Farmakes: 1^1e1.1, the gold one or adding on that you are doing as a matter of economic cl ient . these signs. These are necessity. Correct? To issuesset the Brad Johnson: The current trend is, if you Iook at Town Square' there is no consistency to the Iettering and there's a sign band that's approximately 2 feet high. llaybe it's 3 feet high. That runs acrdss the lop of that building. And you can any, because this is uhat is necessary in order to attract a tenant, and it can have a logo. They can have various colored signs and there's no consistency to the leLtering ' Not'l ue may have made a mistake on this building by having too narrou, of a sj.gn band and we've idenLified it so much that we didn't get the free kind of spirit that we have over at Town Square. I think we'II sav that's true. In addition to thaL, our first ttro tenants were the same tenants and thev put in the same type of sign to balance out. One was on one hand in the Farmakes: So the definition of your character is if you have a r.rhiteplexiglass, it 's burgandy? Planning Commission Meet i ng March 20, 7997 - Page !7 Ieft and you've got the, urhat do you ca]l it? The Business Health which is...the standard lettering... Now Market Square, the new one, has approximately the same thing as Tor^,n Square has. It's got a band. It r"lill have free form Ietters. I don't know what I'm trying to get to. tle reallydon't feel that an American family Iogo up on a sign band at this point inLife is a good idea the way that is set up and that's our decision. Farmakes: But why is that? Is that your client or is that you? Brad Johnson: That would be me. Farmakes: So you feel that.,.appearance of the buildins? Brad Johnson: ...yellow sign, I'd have to Iive with a logo thatprobably look out of place. It'd be different i.f everyone had atry to balance them ourselves. Farma kes: Now would logo.[..1e Brad Johnson: Farmakes: That the star next to the Goldstar Hortgage, is that? That's a logo. is a logo? Yeah, That's a permitted use in the downtown area on theBrad Johnson: sign band . Farmakes: But you don't feel that the American Statewould look good say in that center area? Farm Insurance I ogo Bob Copeland: That's strictly just a matter of opinion. It,s veryinteresting this whole conversation because r can remember being over hereat City HaII with the previous Planner and the consultant to the City wherethey told us when this project was still on the drawing board and theysaid, ure don't want a plain building. You've got to get some signage inthere . They've got to be multi-colored. t^le Hant it close to the road. t^tewant exciting. l.Je want some interest. And that's what they said. Thatwas the tone of the project - And that's the uray it uras set. Nou youpeople look at things differently. trell you're certainly entitled tobut... Farmakes: You're misinterpretting. Bob Copeland: ...there was a different Lone set early on for this. Farmakes: You're mi si nter pretti ng my question. My question to you t,as,uhat was the motivation for the story here as to how these signs, uhat uasthe history behind these signs being different? Brad Johnson: AII those signs fit in the sign band. And that, from ourpoint of view, would have been okay and from the City's point of vier,l- t^le approved the signs and the City approved t.he signs. Once the band has beenseL- The same for Toh,n Square. I mean we could have had the same signsfor Town Square as we had here. Planning Commission Meeting March 20, f997 - Page 18 Farmakes: NeII, I'm still unclear - Haybe I'm not listening to you correctly but I am unclear as to the motivation why you don't want to put it up on that sign band? tlhy your client doesn't or if your client isconditional as to it being in that corner down in the uay it's being proposed her e? Brad Johnson: He had heard the Iast meeting five. tlhen we came out of this last meeting five tenants on the sign band. One sign per IiEtIe step in and out. Five signs. That's what we heard. So Ne never Presented to them that they could do it any other uay. I don't think ule could do the logo. We could say American FamiLy Insurance. Brad Johnson: It's just not wide enough. Farmakes: So the size would be too small if that roof was uP and above there for the type size is what you're saying? Brad Johnson: You can't go outside the what I think their logo does... sign band to actually accomPlish Farmakes: Nor^, do you interpret that or does your client as to hot^, big? I mean is there a certain point size on that type? Brad Johnson: The cI ient . Farmakes: The cl ient does? Farmakes: No, I'm talking about the size of the sign for type. The size of the type as it's read from the street. the size of the Brad Johnson: They have a sign standard Lhat says American FamiIy century 21 or any of those places. There's a certain relationship they have said in their franchise and whaLever and you iust try to tha! as much as possible into the ordinances. The scale of that... Farmakes: I guess that answers as many questions as I have. I you to some extent that that ordinance is vague and I hope that can rectify some of that in the future here. agr ee maybe or t hat wor k with WE Emmings: Do you havefeelings about it one Farmakes: I feel it serves i!'s with it. I don't have a problem Emmings: Okay , Br ian? anything on the directory sign in the back? Any h,ay or the other? purpose. I guess on the other side I don't see a problem of the par king lot. BatzIi: Directory have every right to back. thumbs up for me. I think thatat this hor"r ue're looking at it givensign be in the Iooki ng we the Farmakes: t^ihy is that? Brad Johnson: If we're going to do the logo, you have to do'.- Planning March 2O Commission l,4eet i ng 7997 - Page 19 way the building was developed and the conditions and everything el^se. Asyou'Il remember from the last time, I thought that this building was kindof the equivalent Lo a downtown Excelsior area. I liked the signs. I h.atethe way the applicant keeps on coming in here and I trould say'Iet's do thisone but kind of a read my lips. No more signs. I can't believe thatthey're obviously in here. They want another tenant and for economicconsiderations they're going to come in and try and brow beat us and I kindof resent that attitude. Emmi ngs: Annette? EIIson: I don't have a problem with the directory sign. I agree with Bradthat there's differences in the SIC codes and things like that. I keptthinking to myself Lhat the di.fference I always see with Town Square andarr these others is that they actually people draw people in because of thesign. You're going to go and buy something and would an insurance sign make me stop and say' gee honey ret's 9o in and talk about insurance whilewe're driving by. You knou it's Lhese types of businesses aren't thatkind. You're looking them up in the YeIIow Pages and a lot of people saythings like we are in the l.ledical Arts Building or they say things likethat simply because Lhey're that type of business that still draw peopleand they don't have aII the signage. I think that they don't have nearlythe drop-in traffic that Town Square type of take-out chow mein would andthings Iike that- But if the ordinance allows them to have that, I,dprefer it be up on the waII. It's funny, I would ralher give up anotherspace on that wall and make a small American Family in the band then to putit on the ground there. But if the ordinance allows it on the ground.then I would wan! to take avlay 6 inches and make it as small as possible.That's it - Emmi ngs: Ladd? Conrad:size, are PauI , the standardsthere standards? for an identification sign. tJhat, other than Krauss: In our ordi nance? Conrad: Kind of like what can go on? Krauss: No. And that's why we've resorted to basicall.y sign covenants onlhe newer developments because not only does it often not give t'hedeveloper what they want, which isn't the case here, but it doesn't achievewhat the City b,ants. Now for example Town Center , or I 'm sorry . l.,tar ketSquare has signage that's guided as to type. I mean I think it's aII ]ikethe backlit individual Ietters. The size of the sign area is regulated.The size of the sign area relative to the tenant and the prioritization ofthe tenants is regulated. t^lithin those guidelines they have a lot ofIatitude. They can do different colored signs and that can lookatLract ive . Conrad: So it's no name of the bui Idi ngThat's not a unique unlque.or thethi ng? This is not a precedent urhere you have Lhe name of the group of offices plus a tenant? Krauss: tJeII, it'srelunctant to rely conrad: Te 11. me if s i gns? Kr auss : they want signs? Krauss: No,That's wrong not unique on our past in Chanhassen to date and I'm real exper ience . you had your druthers, what would you do ttith pylon That they should identifyto idenLify a tenant, it the property, should be lhe the buildins itself and if major tenant. be for 10 foot high pylonConrad: But your preference would probably not that's a quirk ih the ordinance and I wouldn't defend that. but that's the way it is. conrad: Do you have a vision? t^lhat you just gave me trould be a vision. Shorter signs. ReaIIy to get rid of some of the cluLter or the ugliness of the Sinclair sign or a gas station sign, we really don't want that in downtown. Are there other characteristics to these signs? They Iiterally have to be lit at ni.ght to be of significant use but is there anvthing else? And we're getting off a little bit Brad. I'm just kind of curious. Krauss: Ne don't mind monument signs being Iit or being Prominent but whenyou're monumenting something you're sticking it out by the right-of-way. It's 10 feet back from the street. It's a different kind of sign than a Lenant sign. I was just talking to Sharmin and I was saying somewhaL facetiously what if this uras a 5 story building or 4 story building? tle'd had 3 sign bands. I mean the issue. Krauss: Yes and often times they're landscaPed. They're lit. They'repretty expensive things for a develoPer to do. And frankly we, at a staff Ievel , we Iike the Brooke's pylon sign. t^le think that uorks pretty well. It identifies the center and the primarily tenant. Conrad: l.lhen the City Council allowed the 5 bands on the front and the back, what was it that, you know originally there were only 5 bands to be allowed and then some of us decided that it was aPProPriate to have the 5 in the back. l.lhat ordinance were we concerned with? t^lhat guideline were we concerned trith when we granted the 5 on the back as weII as the 5. t^las there something? Was it common sense type of issue or was there a one signper building? tlas it a one sign per street frontage type of deal and the back side wasn't on the street frontage? Krauss: To be honest I don't know. t e didn't supPort that. Planning Commission Heet i ng Harch 20, 7997 - Page 20 conrad: You Iike your identification signs to be kind of classv don't vou? conrad: I know you didn't. You and Joan were in the same camp. tlhen ' I don't want to belabor this and I'm sorry. You believed you had a sign agreement and therefore your inflexibility on this one- Is that the right? Basically them came in under signed in terms of what would be permitted and maybe we went and allob,ed some things that typically our ordinance might not have granted but I'm just kind of curious about lhe fact that they Planning Commission Meeti ng March 2O, 1997 - Page 27 could come back because they still have some more tenants and I thinkto me as to how we control this oneyou have a sign package, that,s itprocess r i tht? have some liberties. They still maythaL the future is a IiLtle bit unclearPaul. But your interpretation is onceand no changes unless you go through a Krauss: That's exactly the case.approving an architectural plan forthat that happens. To us that'sa building.no differenttle're there than you to make sure conrad: so it's not like we had the perfect package before? rt was thereand now we're going through the process? Okay. Just a few things.Personal opinion. r don't care if it's retail. sales or service sales.This country is really, you know this is the same spiel I gave you the lasttime. Businesses need signage. Thev absolutely have to hive ir and rthink we, vou know r think signage can improve the looks if it's done welrand r just don'L have any probrem at arl making sure that there's signage.r don't care if it's an office buildins or a retair center urhere you-buiproducts. r think signage has to be. The question in my mind is howtastefully it's done. I think our sign ordinance is the biggest painbecause you can never, they're al.ways 50 pages long and they,re just a reartough thing to develop standards for. There's aII different situations butanvNav, r don't have a probl.em at all with the directory sign in the back.r think when vou take a look at it, common sense tells yo,, ihat it,s fineand to add a few inches here or there, there's just no probrem. As r lookat the informational sign or the identification sign on the front, weprobably approved something before. I wouldn't design it this way. Ithink this is low impact visibilitv the way they're doing this. This isnot what r would be doing but this is what their decision is as to hou todo it. And again, I think it,s lou impact. When you take a Iook at it, Idon't think it's, I just believe i!,s not doing, it,s not hurtingChanhassen's aesthetic appeal in dou,ntown by allowins it. My concern isthe future. My concern is we don't have standards realry for what theseinformaLional or identificalion signs should be. They can be realIyprettv. They can be a corner stone. And r looked at this and rm not surewhat we can do where they need signage. r just don,t know that ure couldput up something that's reallv significant in that rittle area that,sthere. so basicarly my biggest concern right nour is that whatever they puLin aesthetically fits, and I don't know that right now. The quality oiwhat's been presented to me tonight doesn't teII me anything and so r don'thave a problem with the bands and the signage up there. There,s a fewlittle problems here and there but r don't see that a big deal but r docare about the qualitv of the signs that's 9oin9 in. They have to relate.r heard the words but r Hourd have Lo make sure thaL staff. r don,t Hant agrotesque sign coming out of there. I really don't and wh6n you startplaying with illumination, I get a little bit. concerned. So I don,t have aproblem with what's being requested tonight. r do have a probrem withmaking sure that it's aesthetically pleasing and again as I say, this isnot the sign lhe way d solve the problem but that's the way they ob,nerswant to sorve it. That's okav. The onrv other Lhing r think we shourdtalk about is nhat if they come back again. Are we going to go through thesame thing? Do-ue have a package deal? The applicant says no. t,e don'thave a package deal . !^,e may h,ant to come back. t.Je may have additionar PIanning Commission l'leet i n9 Harch 20, 799f ' Page 22 need and maybe we have to decide whether we this is it or we'II entertain other signage Emmings; Can I ask, do I hear you saying you in Lhe front of the building as it's ProPosed sign? Kr auss : Er hart: Krauss: the sign ac cep ted have a package deal tonight and changes, That's all I've got. don't mind the idea as long as it's not of an a sign us Iv Conrad: Aesthetically pleasing. It should fit in r.rith what the signage elements that they've already got. It sounded like thev have those. I'm not convinced. You knou, I haven't seen the hotts, How they're going to do it here. I just really have to be comfortable that it's not a glaringlv different appearing sign than wha!'s there. That's my bigges! concern. Emmings: So would you t.tant to see that before we acted on it? Conrad: tJould I Nant to see it? Somebodv should- I don't care if it's staff , C.ity Council . I don't knor.r that I need to give mv - You know everybody:s got their or.rn Personal opinion of what beauty is and I guess I'd prefer somebody has to do it. Erhart: PauI you mentioned the word, you mentioned that Ne had a covenant with Town Square signage? Krauss: Well, you know I don't think the terminology was as soPhisticated then but essentially yes. You had a site PIan b,ith some sPecific signage requirements that were condiLions of aPProval . I consider that the same as a covenant. Erhart: t hat's the, with Town Square what's the, in your mind what's the form of covenant there? AL-Jaff: ft was designed by Fred Hoisington. Brad Johnson: The difference between the Lwo Proiects is that this is not a PUD. ...PUD by definition. You can vary from the ordinances but you have to have a pack urhen it's aII over with. And the CBD because you don't need the PUD benefits in order to do a buildins on a smal] Iot... Yes. Do we have a covenant with the owners of this buildins? The quesLion here though becomes one of is there a documen! called covenant that's recorded with the ProPertv that the Citv's and has some IegaI standing. Erhart; l.Je have that with Tor.,n Square? Krauss: There is a separate document with Tot^rn Square. This one no- This one, when you approved the building you conditioned it on a sign PIan approval. You then approved that sign Plan. It became a Portion of the site plan at that point. I sort of regard the two as the same but administratively they're a Iittle differenr I guess. Planning Commission Meeti ng March 20, 7991 - Page 23 Erhart: If you were, if this building, if this was going to comeLet's say it uas a flat piece of ground today and they came in andfeel , I sense that you would want to have a separate sign covenantuias a neur projecL today or did I misinterpret. Krauss: Er har t 3 That's correct. tJhich? Krauss: That we 'd wantbetter Iegal standi ng. a separate document that taas recorded that had some in. you if this Erhart: Kr auss r Erhart: Alright, and that's because you feel the ordinance is too vague? Yeah. Or do you just think that's the wa)r signs ought to be managed? Krauss: t^lell in my own personal opinion, Lhis goes beyond uhat theordinance is telLing us. yes, r think it's better for aII concerned tohave a sign package that's consisten! architecturally r.Jith the buildins.That the City buys into. The developer buys into Lhat guides, you knowtenants will come in and ask for the stars but you ray a covenant out andyou say this is all you can get. Erhart: Do oLher ciLies do it t.hat way? Krauss: oh sure. Krauss: I think that's sort of what you,re hearing. Erhart: But that's not right or what? Erhart: You've got a situation here where you've got a no win situation. [^le can LaIk about whether vou Iike signs or whether you don't like signsbut that changes every minute. Every tenant the situation,s going tochange, You're going to have the building ou,ner Hanting to have anothersign for every tenant that wants the signs bigger. Brad you mentionedthere's a 1 foot height limit on that sign. Uhere is that? rf there's nocovenant, then why is there a l foot height limit on the band? Brad Johnson: t,le have a sign band that u,e created. Erhart:. So it's your own deal . So if you Nant to put a 1 l/2 fooLAmerican Family sign up there, that has nothing to do with the city. Krauss: Except that the sign band is part of the architectural elevationthat was approved with the building. Erhart: But what rm hearing here is that someone's arguing that Lhat wasfor that day but they can come back anytime and change it to a 2 foot signband because our ordinance allor.ls it- Planning Commission lleet i ng March 20, 7991 - Page 24 Batzli: That's noL the City's position. conrad: The City said it was granted once. Erhart: But what I'm sensing here is that, and maybe I'm misreading the Planning Commission, is that we're kind of going along. And maybe I'm misreading the group here a little bit. It just bothers me that I guess thaL we're 9oin9 to have to go through that. First of aII what bothers me is that the applicant expects to get this through. I think you do and at what point do you stop. At what point do we stoP having meetings? At what point, you know BiIl Boyt talked about a 14 foot sign and everything, or 10 or anything and somebody expected that hre were going to have a 10 foot sign and we spent a lot of money getting this into a document and how long does tha! go on? I guess the other side of that is I guess the whole band looks terrible today. t,hatever you guys came up wiLh for an approach, didn'L work. I think Brad...says it doesn't work. I guess I'd like to see if we're right out on a Iimb, negotiate a covenanL so we don't have to come back here h,ith another meeting and sPends hours and thousands of dollars of city money on another meeting and money from these guvs and Iet's negotiate a package. Make a covenant that's going to end it. I Personally think at this point, I think the band around Town Square looks better than the signs on this buildins Brad Johnson: ...Town Square and the lead tenant chose small signs, small, you know what you see. Erhart: The suggestion that I would have is,'in the first Place I think it's kind of ridiculous to make the identification sign two PurPose. If it's identification sign, make it the title of the building and negotiate, make a continuous band around the building. I think it looks beLter if vou have logos up there in multiple colors and Put some character into it. If you're going to have signs, lhen Iet's Put some character into it and negotiate a covenant to give them the signs they need. KeeP some consistency so the identification si.gn is the identification sign. Not something else that they'II come back and say now I want American Family on this side and another one on this side because we don't have the band space and it's going to go on and on and negotiate a covenant. Brad Johnson: The original plan on this was to have a band like you suggested with as many tenants as we wanted. t^,e came back and somebody said weII you can on.Ly have 5 tenants. t^le don't have this kind of problem with Market Square because, over here at Tourn Square because if we expand to 7 tenants or 10 tenants, there's no limit as long as their sign is in that band. And this particular one, because you Iimited the number that can be in the band, somebody has limited it. I also think, and I told Bob this, the band is a little narrow and ue made that decision by about a foot. And that's because we Put that burgandv thing in there. It's a litt]e narrow Lo accomplish what we have over there. It's an architectural thins. Erhart: In summary, I guess I don't care about the 6 directory sign. I don't think it makes sense to have advertising sign and buildins identification sign on i nches both an one sign on the occupa nt and I think Planning Commission l'1eet i n9 March 20, l99l - Page 25 we should, I'd like to see this go back and negotiate a covenant that gives them a whole fresh look al that band. tlhere you allow them to have adequate signage up there for occupants. Emmings: Okay. I agree with everybody. Is there a motion? conrad: tJe've got 5 different approaches here. Emmings: I don't knou,. I guess where I come down on this is, I don'tthink we're reaLly got, I don't have any problem with saying to Brad a deal's a deal . They made a deal with the City here and I don't care what the ordinance says, they made the deal and we certainly have every right to make them stick r^rith it if we Hant to. Having that said, I also don't have any problem uith them coming back and asking for modifications. I thinkthat's the way the system's got to work a little biL. That doesn't mean we have to give it to them. And I really, I don't think it's fair, I don't Iike the position that Brad took that because the ordinance allows it that somehow we have to give it to him. That simply is not, that's ulrong as far as I'm concerned. I think what they were allowed, if it was ambiguous in the beginning, was certainly clarified Iast year Nhen we ]ooked at this. And so I think they've been treated fairly and a deal's a deal to someextent. The directory sign in the back, if they u,ant it 6 inches bigger, I have absolute.l.y no problem with that. That's fine. The sign in the front, r agree with Tim, ought Lo be a building identification sign and shouldn't have anybody on it other than the name of the building. American FamiIy,if they're going to go in that building, is going to have to have a sign and I have no idea on how you're going to accomplish that. I don't have any suggestions for you but I don't want to see it down on that sign. Idon't know what else to say. Somehow American Family needs a si.gn and you may weLl have to come back and do what Tim suggested and start a process to reLhink aII of the signs on the building and we'll have to look a! it again. I don't think that the, I personally would no! like to see the American Family Iogo up on the sign band but I might change my mind onthat. Those are my comments I guess, Do you have anything else you want to add back there? Bob Copelandr I have one thing that r.le're not here tonight because of our desire to.., The only reason ue're here is because the staff wouldn'! approve, they didn't consider this minor enough to approve it at theirIevel. fn other words, we didn't want to have this public hearing. tle resisted it. . . Emmings: I don'L have any problem with you coming in here and asking for anythins, I really don't. I think that's the uay we're set up to work soI don'! resent or think Lhere's anything wrong Nith you coming in and asking for anything you u,ant. Brad Johnson: Probably the way to solve the probl.em is a little biL'like what you're saying, what Tim says and what everybody else says. Ge! the signs on the sign band and originally we didn't have a limit. tje iust knew we had a Iimited amount of space but not limit the number of tenants t^thich, see Marke! Square if you had gone in and said, okay. You wouldn't even think this b,ay but you can only have sign for 5 tenants. You would have Planning Commission l,teet i ng March 20, 199]^ - Page 26 heard us scream and holler. [.le knew we were. going to have more. So if we could just limit ourselves to a. sign area there, I don't think ure'd have half this discussion and that's originally how we started out- At someperiod of time somebody said, we only want, ue u,ant to do the cookie cutter. There's 5 spots. That's what we want and that's where b,e put them. tle possibly made a couple of mistakes in the design of Lhe sign band because we went in and really made it narrow, by painting those ]ittle stripes on that you see on the, they're architectural stripes. tle said that's where the signs are going. You don't see that on ToNn Square, There is no point and ue can come back and talk about that and that might be the solution. Because then it's our job to just kind of keep it balanced. Risht nou it's so tight that if we go beyond that, it Iooks funny and everybody's designing their signs to fit into those Iitt]e spots.I think you're right abou! that. Emmings: Would you have any feeling about whether you'd this or whether you'd want to table it while you try andfor us to look at again? Erhart: tle could move on the directory sign tonighL to go theAhrens; t^lell. theto approve that it approve the directory sign applicants just asked us, wa nt uror k on out us to act somethi ng front isn'L soi nsIike anyway. . . and table the front. way , we're not goingsrgn rn sou nds Emmings: I think you're right. Brad, I'm waiting for you. the building and he feels thatBrad Johnson: I'm talking to the owner of we should go ahead. Emmings: Okay. AIright, does anyone else have any comments about this? If not, is Lhere a motion? Erhart: tJeIl I'lI just move to say the Planning Commission recommendsdenial to the signage change I guess. Conrad: Do you want to and deny? would you uant us toErhart: tlelI r know the separate the two issues? Brad Johnson: tleII it would heIp. going to recommend approval for both, thenBob Copeland: If you're not recommend approval for one. Erhart: Okay. I'Il move to approve the change to the directory sign as requesLed by the appl icant . Emmings: And by the directory signbuilding? okay. Alright we've got we're taLking about the sign behind thea motion. Is there a second? Krauss: Question. Did you want to include in the motion to the suggestion about resubmitting something around the guidance as ba nd? your sign Planning Commission Meeti ng March 20, f997 - Page 27 Emmings: No. I think the Minutes are cLear on that. Is there a second? Conrad: Second. Emmings: Is there discussion on the motion? Conrad: Basically what ue would enLertain. No. That's not part of themotion. Basically Tim is not saying anythj.ng about what we do from here.Just the fact that we're looking at, !a,e approve the direcLory sign and wehaven't given staff direction with this motion. Erhart: [^le're only asking the 6 inches. 5 feet. That's all. Conrad: And so it's up to us whether would want, weII it'd be up toapplicant to carry this through to City Council or to come back withto the particular idenLification sign. the regard Emmings: Or how to change aII of Lhe signage on the buildins to maybe adifferent kind of concept or whatever. Conrad: You know just out of curiousity, are we open to looking, You knowwe're sending some signals here and I think regardless of whaL are motionsare, I think the signals are real important. Are He open to looking atthat ba nd? Emmings: Let's do this. Let's call a question on the motion and thenlet's discuss. Give them whatever direction people feel Iike they want to,if they haven't already done it in Lheir comments. Is there any other discussion on the motion? Let's calI Lhe question. Erhart moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission recommend to amend the site plan for the l.,ledical Arts Euilding to approve the directorysign as proposed- AII voted in favor except Brian Batzli urho opposed andthe motion carried with a vote of 6 to 1- Emmings: Okay, Brian teII us why you're opposed. Batzli: I would make it a condi.tion that they don't get any moreafter !his. This is iL and this is the full and final agreement would also vote to approve the sign they've got in front. signs and I Emmings: okay. Nou, as far asyou bJant to? any direction to the applicant. Ladd, do Erhart: Do you Hant to vote on the other one first? Emmi ngs: t^Jhat? Erhart: Do you want to vote on the front sign first? Before wedirection to the applicant so we know where the vote is. grve Conrad: That's not part of your motion. You didn't include that. Planning Commission Meet i ng Harch 2O, 1997 - Page 28 EIIson: You can only have one motion. Erhart; I thought Steve that you rear and then give. If that gets appl i cant . wanted to vote on denied , then give both the front our opinion to and the the Emmings: No. t^,hat I understand we've done here, just Lo recaP. tJe've approved the sign on the back of the property and that's aII. Otherwise we've denied what they're asked for. Erhart: okay. I thought specifically we ulere 9oin9 to take a voLe on the denial of the rest of it so it was clear in the Minutes. Emmings: No. That's done with Hhat we did, as far as I'm concerned. Now is there any direction? I think Ladd raants to ask if there's sentimen! up here if people would look aL. Changi ng the sign You've got mine. l^lou I d you Ladd? Yeah. band. Yeah. But Tim you obviously feel it's. Emmings: Yeah, I would too. Annette? Conrad: Erhart: Emm i ngs : Conrad: EI lson: If it uas across the boar d . said the sign. . . tastefully and aethetically done weII. It could come in 10 feet tall and then It's hardyou said, to noH say you conrad: I don't realistically you're not up there. You've got a lot of money into You're not going to go out in the next. conrad: The question realIy is that big of a deal. Do we feel as ]ong as it's designed welL? to change what you've got signage right now don't you? going your Brad Johnson: The tenants do. conrad: And the tenants aren't really 9oin9 to go out and say oh boy, Iet's change our signage. Brad Johnson: l.le could come back with signage... I've got the middle Ieft. There is no sign there. If we come back and handle that and then as we add the other ones. They r.,ere limited to 5 total tenants on the front and we've got a probLem. Let us kind of handle that area, ue're okay. here, and I don't know. committed to 5 or do we Maybe it's no!feel open to multi Brad Johnson: My point is I think we were a ]ittle bit overly rigid on how I listened to you and look at Tor.,n Square and I keep saying what's the difference. t^le u,ere very rigidly defined on our own, not by you, on where we could put the band. It doesn't look... Ahrens: r guess r have trouble opening up the band issue. rt seems to meure have very little conLrol over that anyway. Brad,s saying that thereason GoLdstar rooks the wav it does, which is not the way we wourd havewanted it to look is because it slipped Lhrough the cracks of the lease.Thev got a sign and they enLered into an agreement with the tenant to havethe sign the way it is and they got it that way. Brad Johnson: One of theother signs are white.reasons it doesn't look very good is aII the Emmi ngs: Right. Ahrens: WeII yeah. tlhatever the problem is. Ahrens: ttell what I'm sayingthe problem because ever ythi ng we had control over Lhe method is how you got to the problem. you got toslipped through the cracks. It's not Iike Conrad: It's realjudgments here but interesting. t^,e're getting into some aestheticjust out of. conrad: t^le love it don't we when it gets arbitrary like this. Emmings: No, but I lhink this is fair. They talk about bringing inanother buiLding and we're getting a l-ot of practical experience on hot^rthat other building's going to look. Brad says it's coming back with a rotof signage and I think we're going to be real fussy. If they get thatbuilding' there's going to be a lot of fussiness with signs and w"'lI haveIearned a lot from this. I don,t want to get into the specifics. Emmi ngs: That's fair . Ahrens: I don't brant to talk about that either but what my point is isthat we're talking abouL having control over what it,s going to ]oo likeover whether it's going to rook nice or bad according to whatever standardsL,e use buL do we really have any control if this is something that thetenant decides anyHay in a lease? Emmings: tJe]l we could, I suppose, when we limited them to 5could have said they'Il all be the same color. There ulill bemean there are whole bunch of things we could have said. sign bands no Iogos. NE I Ahrens: I don'L think we need to do that. I think they may need to beapproved by the staff or something Emmings: Right, but there are ways you courd limit that if you wanted to. Ahrens: Oh sure. Sure. Conrad: hear i ng Are hre looki ng that. I'm just for going multi-colored signage on this building?fo teII you another personal...I'm Planning Commission Meeting Harch 20, 799]^ - Page 29 Brad Johnson: It just didn't work. Planni ng Commission l,teeti ng March 20, l.99l - Page 30 Emmi ngs: t^leI I Tim . conrad: Tim's whispering in my ear and I'm assuming that he's looking for everybody. The signage that is there is reallv Iow imPact right now folks - It really is. When you get white on a burgandy at a foot high, we're not talking about breakins anybody's eyeballs in terms of gaudiness - You may be reacting to, I'm not sure what everybody's reacting to aesthetically here but again, so I iust don't want to send a signal that says we want flashy. I think signage on this kind of building should be verv Practical . It should identify who,s there but I iust don't feel it should be literally the backlit, multi-colored logoish that we put on a retail store because that stuff can be very attractive on a retail center. I don't knor,r that it fits on this particular. I know it doesn't fit on this particular building so again, just from my personal standPoint, I don't u,ant the flashy stuff and I think they've goL Practical signs that work reallv r'rel] to heLp people identify where services are. They're not going to stoP you in your tracks. I don't mind what we real]y have here other than the gold color but again Ahrens: I think we need some design standards. t^le obviously don't have any. t^le have 7 people up here t{ith different oPinions. Conrad: You're right. t^le'd aII be in a different boat. figure it out Joan, u,e'd aII be different. If Ne were to Richard tJing: My name is Richard tJing and I'm going to sPeak as a resident. Joan has commenLed on the gatewav aPPearance of our city. You come in on TH 1O1 and we 9o through Lhe Amoco stetion and we go through a Valvoline OiI Change. Now even though it's going to be the best designed place which I think we can take pride in. And as Ne come into Chanhassen, both the l'1ayor has commented on Lhe gateway affect of our city. The biggest building and the Iargest buitding, the most significant buildins in our gateuay is the building we're discussing here and I'm going to just urge you to be very conservative and if in doubt, to err on the side of being conservative because that is a gate[ay building. I would like to see it as a professional building. I think I would like to see it classv. I don't want to see a mass of color. That's a classv building right now and as I'm Looking at these Plans, I think there's a trend to get away from that classiness. So if in doubt, my Personal feelings are that you err, if you have to make a decisionr err on a conservative side and Iet's worry about this in the future. I would have a real hard time dressing that building up with signs- That is a gateh,av building. That is a major impact visually coming into the citv and I think we have to treat that with special care. It's a very unique ]ocation. Emmings: AIright. Unless somebody's realIy burning to make more comments on this, Iet's have an end Lo it. Does anyone else want to say anything? conrad: Yeah, I guess Tim. It's Probably Tim. Erhart: f 'm color bIind. Conrad: Ah yeah. Signage is just so much fun.' This is really great. Iwould like to, and I speak for myself. I don't know Steve urhere you'regoing. If there's a motion coming here or if r.le,re just going to let it gobut I think as we look at that band, the challenge should be for, you knowas we open, as we may give more fLexibility to that band, I,d sure Like tosee a better sign for the whole building. In other words, what we weretalking about identification sign, I think that's going to make thebuilding seem that much more significant. If we talk about it, weIIpersonally I'd like to see that identification sign as a significant, goodIooking sign versus puLting advertising messages on it. Emmings: f agree. Okay. Brad Johnson: Can I ask one question? Emmi ngs: Yeah . Brad Johnson: That's my own. The ouner doesn't agree with it. If we wereto kind of dress up the band. Try to figure out some flexibility that wedon't have, wouJ.d you guys go along with that? Is that what I hear yousaving? As rong as lJe come Hith some consistency and it keeps the buildingIooking o kay? Emmings: YeahuiLh the staff I think that's whaton that. [.le're not in . . .have Bob do that. I think that's t^rhat we're sayi ng.the busi ness But you'IL have to workof designing bands. Brad Johnson; Emmings: Yeah. APPROVAL OF HINUTES:Chairman Emmi ngs I hear too. noted the l.linutes of the Planningas presented.Commission meeting dated April 5, 1991 OPEN OI USSION : Emmings: I don't know if this is too obvious a guestion. Maybe I'm justnot getting it but in a lot of brays it wogrld seem to me to be simpler for adeveloper to just make one of those good old fashion subdivisions where youput in blocks of lots. tlhat's in it for a developer? t^thy are the pUO,s desireable for a developer? Is it basically the flexibility so they're notconfronted h,ith rigid standards or lhat they can make a higher quality development that wilI be better in the marketplace? t,,hat,s the advantagefor the developer? Planning Commission Meet i ng March 20, 7997 - Page 31 PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPI{ENT ORDINANCE AHENDHENTS./DTSCUSSION OF PUD'S AND PROPoSEO PUD ORDINANCE BY JOHN SHARDLOII OF DAHLGREN. SHARDLOI.I AND UBAN AND TERRY FORBORD OF LUNDGREN BROTHERS CONSTRUCTION. PauI Krauss gave a short presentation on the background of the item andthen introduced John Shardlow and Terry Forbord who each gave slidepresentations on proposed amendments to the planned Unit Development Or di nance . Planning Commission MeeLing March 20, !997 - Page 32 John Shardlow: t^le]l I would say it depends on the nature of wha! you're tryins to develop. t^lhat Terry was talking about, when he showed vou some examples of reduced front yard 'setbacks, reduced side yard setbacks. tJhat you L,ere geLting in exchange for that were maybe some enhanced Ponds and some other design features so the overall affect of it was still positive with the trees, open space and so forLh. But the flexibilitv aIlows them to get more density and reduce their development costs on the residential side . Emmi ngs: Andshorter front ElLson: tJas that the 9,OOO? f was real impressed with those slides. I thought those yards didn't offend me any. Emmi ngs : Iike that myse 1f . even in LhoughL lhe 9,ooo.they l oo ked 9,OOO, preLLy small Iots i mpr ess i ve Yeah, and I r didn't know we hadgreat. I think it's Emmings: Yeah, sure. Terry Forbord: I'm Terry Forbord. The benefit to us is that it a]lows us to do different things. I'm not necessarily going to say you make more money doing a PUD because the costs are more. The most money bre could make is if we went in there with a grid system and cut down everv single tree and leveled that site so there was no grade to it. That's how you make money and you see some people that do that today but for us' I mean this is our life- t^le do this because we like to do it too. It's not that we'rejust trying to make a living at it. But it reallv makes something nice and we don't have to cut down trees and we can enhance a wetland that's already there and u,e can provide a housing tyPe that somebody t^touldn't normally be able to afford if I had to Put them on a 15,OOo or a 2O,oOo square foot lot. So aII of a sudden, instead of just one housing Product tyPe ' f can maybe have 4 and so I'm meeting a more diverse grouP of PeoPIe who want to come and move into a community. As you know, because I heard each of you talk about it during the process of the MUSA exPansion, there u,as no MUSA capacity so aII of a sudden Lots in Chanhassen were aII $5O 'ooo.oO and uP and so lhat's the only kind of housing you could get. Now with more capacity and more Iand available, you'II sLart seeing more creativity hopeful.Iy from the develoPment community. Emmings: John, when you lalked you talked about the fact that we should, you don't think, zone areas into PUD. tle should leave underlying zoning and then let people, that would leave peoPle uith the oPPortunitv to either come in under some kind of a standard subdivision or go PUD. If ue want to encourage that PUD, how do we get them to do that? John Shardlow: That's a really good question. There have been some cities that have come up with planned residential district zoning. Planned industrial district zoning. Not, at one Point one of the northwest communities had a planned industrial district aII along one of the freeuays- The idea was there Lhat sorL of come in and we']] tell you r.rhat Terry Forbord: can I ask you a question? Planning March 20 Commission Meeti ng f997 - Page 33 you can do with your land you know and that's illegal. t^lhen you get right down to it, the City has the authority to adopt an ordinance and setstandards. And if you're going through -planned unit development, it gives the opporLunity !o negotiate differenL standards bu! when you boil it aII down to what you have the authority to enforce, you have the authority toenforce an ordinance. And is.it reasonable to have an ordinance that sortof makes up the standards as you go along? Of course not. So how you encourage people to go planned unit development is you first of aII have areasonable process so it's not some convoluted deal that takes forever. You don't know what you've got until the building's done if you wiII. Emmings: And also not to, I suppose taI ked about . to demonstrate the attitudes that you John Shardlow: Abso]utely. And if the attitude isn't right. who's going to do it? I mean the developer's aren't stupid for the most part... Butthe fact of the matter is, people aren't going to go through a planned unit deve.l.opment process if they can 9o through. If you're in a confortational mode with the city and you have a piece of property and you want to developit, you're going to say okay, [^le're zoned R-l, single family residential.I'll plat my land and f want to plat it in the number of lots that I canget based on the ordinance and your subdivision regulations and that's anadminstralive approval . They come in with a plat. They meet your standards. They get the approval. If you get more of that Emmings: tlhat if we jack up our minimum standards? John Shardlor^r: t^lell there's something to that. I think you have to lookat aII of that but I think more importantly than that, making the planned unit developmenL a win urin and obviously that's a uhole discussion that hasto go on and it's your responsibility to articulate what your vision is forthe community. tlhat do you Nant to be and what are the elements of beingthat kind of community. l,Jhether that's preservation of trees, preservation of topography, provision of innovative housing types. l^lhatever that is and Lhen you have to articulate that in your plan too]s. You have to representthat in the information that the staff tells the people because myexperience with developers is for the most part they don't u.lant to fight.For the most part they'd much rather spend the time, energy, and moneyputting together a package that's going to be accepLable to the extent thatthey obviously have a product that they want to market as urell. But people I've found will go a ]ong ways if they just knou what it's going to take and if they know what the standards are to a certain extent, Emmings: They need some clear signaLs? John Shardlow: Exactly. Conrad: So John, I guess I misinLerpretted you thought you said that you should go in and zonebasically that's not true? in the begi nni ng .certain things PUD I but EIIson: But that's what we're concerned about.than the kind we'd Iike to see. Planning Commission Meet i n9 March 20, 7991 - Page 34 Erhart: No. Conrad: There are certain areas that shouLd be but you're saying He can't. John Shardlow: t^lhat I'm saying is, the tool. The planned unit develoPment ought to be a floating zoning district that is available to be applied for anywhere in the city. So I understand that you should zone planned unit deveLopment but you shouldn't go out on your official zoning maP and Pre- designate sites planned uni! development. conrad: Because you can 't? John Shardlow: Because you can't in my'opinion. conrad: And your opinion- John Shardlow: That's based upon long conversations with. conrad: Yeah, but there xould be certain parcels and if we're environmentally sensitive, there are going !o be certain treed areas, certain sloped areas, cerLain Iarge parcels that should be developed PUD but basically you're saying we can't do anything about it. It's pretLy much up to the developer to come in and talk to us. l.le can't forecast those areas and say we really think that these areas need a different touch and we would like them to come in PUD? Basica]Iy you're saying that's going ta be a negotiation stage and really, if a develoPer comes in and has a subdivision, we may have even gone along with it. John Shardlow: certainly you have to Iook at your design the board and are you preserving and protecting trees and thi ngs . standards across those sorts of Conrad: But r,Je can be aggressive . aggressive and you're teIIing me we I m saying John, !.re could betJhat can 't John ShardLow: I'm telling you can be aggressive in terms of encouraging. In every comprehensive plan that I've ever worked on over the last 5 or 5years, we've had very clear in terms of encouraging Planned unit development and encourasing flexibilities in planned unit developments. I mean your policy documents can be very clear about encouraging uhat the. Conrad: But and say these appropr iate . agressl.Ve In my are the areas The whole TH 5 uay of Lhinking would be we look at the areas that we think really a PUD is reallycorridor for commercial . John Shardlor^r: There's no...in saying that. Designating it in your comprehensive plan as an area Lhat you think should be a planned development district but that's different than from going out and saying. conrad: And zonrng ir. John Shardlow: t,e zone it planned unit development- Planning Commission l'leet i ng March 20, ].99L - Page 35 Conrad: So it could be in the comprehensive plan, not in the zone. John Shardlow; In that particular area. Emmings: Is it alright to think about this in terms of here we have oursubdivision ordinance and our standards and you can either do this or lhe PUD as an alternative to any of our subdivision regulations or standardsthat we set where you can come in and basically negotiate a different seLof standards. A different set of rules. Krauss: That gets Lo the heart of one of thebringing up is that our current way of lookingeverything and gives no guidance at all. I'mhere. issues that I 've beenat PUD's t hr ours outIooking for a middle ground Ahrens: t^lhv can't our subdivision regulations or ordinances be good enoughor strong enough and have high enough standards so that it doesn,t matterif somebody comes in ulith a PUD or a standard subdivision, we get the samehigh quality result? t^lhy does it always have to be, you know eithbr you have a hish quality r4ith a PUD or you have to faII back onto thesubdivision. John Shardlow r Subdivision regulations have to be in order to be developed and focus on what size do the parcels then zoning regulations focus on Emmings: He made it clear to me and I thought it was a good point that thesubdivision rules, the standards that are over here are baseline and we,regoing to work our way up from there in our negotiations but what we mightwant !o do to encourage a PUD, it would seem to me is to lay down somestandards regarding things that are very important to us that wiII be hardto meet under the subdivision ordinance to encourage them Lo come in andnegotiate under a PUD. Is that getting grabby? Is that displaying thewrong attitude? I don't know, Krauss: To the extent that you're achieving appropriate goals. I mean tothe extenL that we are protecting mature stands of trees or wetlands,orrequiring buffers or adequate setbacks and adequaLe parking and adequateIandscaping and everything else, it's perfectly Iegitimate to have a verytight ordinance that if you go straight zoning it says exactly what thoushart do. And if Lhat becomes a problem or if there are more creative waysof doing it, our a.l.ternative is to go pUD. tJe,ve spent the last 2 yearstidving up aII sorts of sections of the straight zoning ordinance and we,Ilcontinue to do that. r think the ground urork is set for us to be using thePUD quite a bit more. Hy statements to you last meeting Loo were that whenwe're looking at what's going to come down the pike on TH S, ure've got somevery large tracts of ground, several of which are ouned by some verysophisticated developers or wouLd be marketed to those people and r thinkour expectations for it are somewhat similar. Terry doesn't do pUD's outof altruism. He might feel better doing a quality development than hewould otherwise but it meets a market. Terry finds those Iots to beeminently more marketable than cornfielb development. It works for aIlconcerned. So there's IoLs of angles to play with these things and themore sophisticated developers understand that- what standards have to be met on at the who.Le parcel and developsparcel irrespective of lot size. considerations between bui Idi ngs completely different fr amewor k . Ahrens: It's developed come back in at anytime that lot. Planned unit developments look and plans for r^rhat's best for the whole I mean obviously you still have setback and so forth but you start with a Ahrens: But the results would be the same with the same high quaLity? John Shardlor.r: tlell, I'd argue, If you have a large area that is Parceled off in strange configurations uiLh different toPograPhy and different trees and you put minimum standards that are rectalinear. Rectangular. And different owners and it's going Lo develoP over time. Be marketed Lo differenL people, It could still be an attractive building. It could stilI be an attracLive building. It could still save some trees. I'm just telling you, iL's not going to be as attractive as if it was Planned as a t^rho1e. Ahrens: BuL not alI subdivisions have to have rectalinear lots. Krauss: No, but a good examPle of what John is saying is Lhe Chanhassen Business Park which is not a bad straight zoning tvpe of industrial park. But had that been Laid out, and ue still have the odd lot. Everv lot is sold off, It's sold off to an individual . oPus originallv developed a bunch of them but then they're iust Placed on Lhe market. Anybodv that comes douln the pike who meets the site Plan review standards gets to PUL uP a building. And again, it's not a bad proiect but I think had we had an overall development scheme, had we had an overall lighting and architectural theme, had ule had a better handle on being able to Preserve areas of open space . r mean r.re are reduced to argui ng over i'rhether or not a given oak tree should be preserved and it's sitting smack in the middle of the remai.ning lot where that's the onlv Place to build the buil^dine - I mean your hands are tied at that point. You don't have the ability to make any creative judgment. The die is cast. Ahrens: But even if you had the ability to make a creative judgment' if the developer in a PUD said I don't urant to do that. That's not the Nay I Hant to develop it, even though there's suPPosed Lo be give and take in negotiation between a city and develoPer. And I'm not saying they get to the point where they're in an adversarial relationshiP but Lhere's not the give and take that there should be and the develoPer savs, I want to do it this way in my PUO. They still get their own wav right? John Shardlow: No. If it's inconsistent with the development Plan' vou can't do it that way because you rePresented to us that you urere going to save that tree and these other trees because that was the basis for giving you an increased intensification of deveLopment on this site. so the point is that it is planned as whole and lhat significant tree thaL Paul was calling out for, was shown in the Exhibits that j.dentif ied the inventory analysis and the constraints and so forth initially. as a whole in the beginning but the develoPers can and say. Planning commission l.'leet i ng March 20, 199! - Pase 36 Pl anni n9 March 2O Commission Meet i ng 1991 - Page 37 John Shardlow: But it's subject to rezoning and you can say no. That'sthe key difference Ahrens: Yeah but is it...over a barrel at that point? I mean can they.sayno? If a developer comes in and says I don't want to build apartmentbuildings. I don't h,ant to build townhouses. I want to build singlefamily homes because that's what the markeL has now. The City's not going to step back and say no. John Shardlow: You can say yes but that doesn't mean that you're going togive Ehem the authority to cut that tree down- You see the difference? EIIson: You still have some give or take yes but now let's Iook at what. Emmings: You can impose conditions on the rezoning I suppose. Ahrens: I get the impression that the push is to have everything PUD and maybe that's good- I don't know. EIIson: I think so. Ahrens: I don't know. Ellson: But l don't see thaL we have a whole Iot of groups of property owners Lhat are big enough either. Emmings: It could just be a lot. Terry? Terry Forbord: l,ly name is Terr), Forbord. I think that. BatzLi: Force of habit. Terry Forbord: I'm just used to doing it because of the record. I always want to get everything on the record. Personally there's situations that I've been in where I would have just as soon not done a PUD. I mean I could go in and accomplish. tle do certain things, our firm does in every subdivision no matter b,hat - t^le have, like I say our formula and if I find that it's easier for-me and less hassle and Iess meetings, because it's more of a procesi with the PUD process, that I can accomplish the exact same thing going through a standard subdivision, then I'II go the standard subdivision and I'Il still put in aII the neat things that we do anyway because we found that that's the formula that u,orks for us. And I have been in a position where I have gone to a city and I've said here's what He're proposing to do. That particular city was lhe adversarial Lype of city. They pounded their chests and said, weLl nhen you come into our town, we exact a pound of flesh from everybody t^rho comes in here and if you don't do this, blah, bLah, bl.ah, then you're not going to get a PUD approval. Then I said, well fine. I won't do a PUD. I'll just do.a standard subdivision. It doesn't make an} difference to me. I don't want to sit and argue and have you be unreasonable trith me so I mean it gets into a situation where the objective may be able to be met without using the PUO. But the PUD tool can be a benefit to both parties. Easily. You certainly, if I was a Planning Commissioner. I no longer am but when I was Planni n9 Commission |.leeting March 20, !997 - Page 38 a planning commissioner, I wanted them to do a PUD because then I had some say. I had some ]egislative say over what was going to be done because in the community, in Shakopee where I was a planning commissioner, we didn't have the benefit of having a Iot of first c.Iass developers. t^Je had guys that wanted to come in and rape and pillage so that gave us a little authority uhere ue were able to do, have some control . Kr auss : Er hart r Kr auss : Lhere's Yes . We do do that? Erhart: I'm talking about the overall density. Yeah , you more homes Iook at Pheasant HiIls or someplace Iike that. Sure,in there than there could be in a straight zoning. Erhart: I items that guess I'm geEting the impression that that's not one of theyou're looking for. You're Iooking at a different h,ay to do the John Shardlow: I think you always have to be, conLinuously Looking at how you can improve your standards. And I work with communities aII the time where how can Ne tighten up our signage standards? How do we require sign criteria for the urhole development? Hotr can we improve tree preservation? And how can we get better building materials in our commercia.L district? Those sorts of things. You need to keep elevating the base but I submit to you tha! you're always going to be in a siLuation where you can set a performance oriented standard Iike hish quality buildins materials of consistent quality and someone can put a white brick building on this buildins and a gray brick building here and a striPed brick bui.lding here and so forth and I'm saying to you, if it's designed as a whole, you've got the ability through planned unit development to have an enhanced design framework ulhere you can have a comprehensive landscape plan for the ulholecorridor. A comprehensive Iishtins plan for the whole corridor. A comprehensive signage scheme for the whole corridor. And if you develop those parcels as parcels, you're never going to be able to do as good a job of tree preservation or as good a job of developing and preserving aetlands. You're just not because design, if you Iook at land design,you've always got, the more land you've got to uork with, the better job you can do. Erhart: I've got 3 things- One is, the sense that I've heard here, when ure talk about PUD's is that somehow Lhere's a feeling that we've giving, ulhen you get a PUD somehow the City is negotiating a way, increase density for something in return. Yet Lhe ones that I've Iooked at and what I'm hearing tonight, it comes out. You've got 1OO acres and you h,ant to put 2OO lots in. I've not heard anybody say we're looking for increaseddensity. It appears to me NhaL you're looking for is a different r^ray to do -those 2OO lots. I mean have we ever in a PUD here, residential PUD, have we actuaJ.Iy increased the density versus what the ordinance would requirefor a standard subdivision in that ar6a? Krauss: You did do that here. The h,ay you changed the ordinance to have a 12,5OO square foot average minimum now sort of minimizes that, PIanning Harch 20 Commission Meet i ng 1991 - Page 39 2OO lots. John Shardlow: IL might or might not be. In some instances, increaseddensity might be whaL the developer needs to do. In other situations iL mig,ht just be the flexibility to do some shared walL or common wall development and others it might Erhart: tJell when you get into increased density then you're the situation where you're doing negotiating and trading yet Ithe opportunities are in the way of how you do the 2OO ]ots.Lhink you should focus on that. really i ntothink moref guess I Conrad: It's a real interesting thing and Terry maybe it's a good one foryou. How do you maintain your quality sLandard yet preserve the thingsthat you're going after? And let's say it's open space just for the sakeof argument. Typically if you say, weII instead of 1OO acres of singlefamily residential , ure want 70 acres of that and 30 acres open space andtypically the developer wiII come back and say weII I,m going to have toput my units on smaller lots and typically they come in with a rr,orseproduct. They're going to come.in with a cheaper product or whatever sowe're moving from, in many cases, we're moving from a sinsle family tobasically a multi-family complex. And we don't even know if that productselIs. You found that product doesn't sell so that ulhole area gets realconfusing to me. Terry Forbord: You knoN when we LaLk and uJe use these buzz words. Densityand units per acre and dotrnsizing and open space. I mean I hear open spaceeverywhere I go to the point where, weLl what is open space? f don,t evenknow if I know what that means and I've been doing this aII my life. Idon't know what open space is. I've been in projects that h,ere 2O unitsper acre that felt like more open space than the Near l.,lountain subdivisionthat we've done just because of the way it uras done and the creativity andcertain elements and things or a Hater element or a view corridor so I meana ]ot of it really comes down to creativity and I'm not going to be able togive you a rock hard answer on that because the density thing I uouldencourage people to not get too hung up on that because I know, even as aprofessional I could go through 10 projects and I probably wouldn't be ableto Look at you and accuralely say weII thj.s one is 2 unit per acre and thisone's 5 because they feel, if lhey were done right, they'd feel in such away that.you probably wou.Ldn't feel the impact of the density. And I knowJohn's worked on projects that are like that so I think the densityLransfer issue that you r.lere talkj.ng about is important because I think,for the City to have a PUD ordinance uhere they're going to be in sensitiveareas or in areas where we're Lrying to provide alternative type product orhousing or whatever, there's going to need Lo be some mechanism, this is mypersonal. feeling and John is certainly more eloquenL about this than I am-There's going to be a need Lo be able to transfer density somehow andincrease densities in certain areas but sometimes you can take 2 acres of "open space' and it can feel like it's 10 acres. So the density thing, aIot of it just depends on who the people are and how they're doing it. Erhart: Okay, I've got . . . P Ianni n9 Harch 20 Commission Meet i ng 1991 - Page 40 John Shardlow: I've got a real burning resPonse to that. If somebodv comes in and does a single family residential plat, do you review buildingplans? You can in a PUD. If someone's coming in to do a Planned unit development and they want to do an increase in density, you can look at their building pLans. Part of the negotiation can be Nhat's the nature of the woodwork and you can get into that kind of thing in a Planned unit development and you can say no. I guess that's the key point. And mavbe density transfer doesn't work on a PUD projecL but I guess before you focus so much on what you're giving uP, I'd ask you to look at it from the standpoint of what you're getting. t.lhat you have got in terms of a tool and you don't have to use it. You know you don't have to use it buL in Eagan we did a planned unit deveLopment when Northwest Airlines wanted to expand because they needed to do a full blotrn environmental imPact statement. They needed to build a new interchange on the freeway and one of the only way they were going to be able to get the amount of develoPment on the land that they wanted Lo was to be able to do traffic demand management. That's where everyone staggers !heir work force at different hours and so forth. How in the world is the City going to enforce that? Through a planned unit develoPment is hot"t they're going to enforce it- The City of Burnsville r^re had a very difficult area but multiple ownershiP which some people had narrow ownershiP, Iong rectangular parcels and some had deep parcels r.rith no frontage. The Planned unit develoPment gave them the opportunity to maximize their develoPment and Potential of their property by working together with those Iot lines. It's an extremely flexibLe tool and f guess Iook at it. from that standPoint of Nhat it gives you in terms of the ability to achieve your goals as oPPosed to what we're going to be giving up. conrad: But it's aIl developer initiated John. and urhen lhey apply, when Lhev Nant the PUD it's mee! our standards. The developer 's coming in because Lhey don'L want to Krauss: No, thaL's not true. Conrad: They don't want to meet a Particular density or whatever - Krauss: tlell, I'II grant you this though Ladd. Our experience with how it's been used in downtown Chanhassen falls into that sPector. ThaL somebody couldn't meet the hard surface coverage so do it like a PUD. t^lell, we changed a lot of thinking about PUD's r.lith the Harket Sguare - t're made them buy into a development contract. I think you might recall them arguing thaL we didn't have the right to tell them what could go on the outlots in that project and I said that's garbage. tle do have the right- You're signing a contract. DeveloPers understand contracts. l^le're going to teII you architecturally t^rhat can go on that. tle're going to teII you ulhere you can access and phere you're going to Park and they kicked and screamed about that but the Council ultimately aPProved it that way and those are the kinds of advantages that come out of this. Also, in terms of a developer dictating things, I guess uJe try to be as oPen with the Planning Commission as we can but it's hard to relate to you the number of contacts and meetings Ue have with people before they ever shotr up here and we have a great deal of ]atitude in pushing them one Nay or the other. You kno$,, most developers don't come here trying to bumP heads - They come here Planning March 20 Commission Heeti ng 7991 - Page 41 Lrying to come up with something that's mutually acceptable - tlhen they sit down with us and we say that's a sensitive piece of ground. ft's on a highway corridor and we really Eant to treat this as an overall project. Get as much Iand locked up as you can and come up with an overall designconcept, more than half the time they'Il do it because we basically laid itout as a reasonable premise. Conrad: Then that Ieads me into another guestion. Same thing paul .You're doing the negotiation. Plannins Commission doesn't have a clue.Basical]y you're negoliating and we sit here and we say we don't knor., ifyou negotiated a good deal or a bad deal. l^le don't know what Lhe developersaved. t^Jhat the utilities and all the special , all the things that theyhad, that they benefitted from versus what they negotiated so the question becomes, wha!'s the role of the Planning Commission? EI lson: t^le set the goals f or them . Krauss: Yeah- I think that's very true Annette thaL there are goals thaLneed to be set. Possibly we do need to do a better job of conveying thesorts of trade-offs that are in there but Ladd ]ook at the inverse of whatyou're saying. A lot of developers take the mind set that I'm going to come to the city wiLh I, you knoh, I'm going to over the units by 3OZbecause I knou the City's going to dump aII over me. I'II come up with aIousy ]andscaping scheme so I can buy, you some give them something back.Ihat's Lhe flip side to your argument and ulhat we try to do is avoid thatconfrontational aspect altogether if we can and work that out hopeful-Ly, Conrad: But how does the Planning Commission get involved in this? Hedon't know what's being negotiated, Krauss: But you see the end product. Conrad: l^le see the end product so therefore we see it. And the end result is only ast^l e the Ahrens: good as don't know ulhat the options are.planning staff. John Shardlowr tJeII the process that I outlined in my slides called for,obviously people are going to, you don't want people to come to se6 thestaff and if nothing else to find out what the procedures are and get thepolicy documenLs and so forth but one of the key aspect of that process wasthe sketch p.Lan. l^lhen they come to you and convey the basic idea and you can ask thdm those hard questions. You can ask them what's in it for you and what are the savings and you can talk about those sorts of things and Conrad: I've gone through a lot of them PauI and I'm just telling you, fdon't have a clue urhether it uras a good deal or a bad deal. I never had aperspective of what should have been done to that property. Not an idea" The developer knew trhat they wanted to do. I didn't and so I'm sittinghere saying, weII gee. Do I want another 15 square feet for thatplayground and was the 5 yard, did the 5 foot change in the setback make any difference? And I don't know- And I say why am I looking at this because f don't have a clue. Planning Commission Meet i ng March 20, 1991 - Page 42 you can get very detailed. Very detailed at the concept stage aPproval before you recommend approval of the zoning, So there you've got a very reaL role, You've got the opportunity to ask alI the tough questions and know all of the information that you want to know short of ProPrietory information about what's in it for them and what's in it for you. So I mean again, I haven't reviewed the ordinance that PauI's puL togeLher in detail but every planned unit develoPment that I've worked with has got that sketch plan approval and it's got that concePt stage aPproval and that's exactl.y the kind of role you Play in the process. EIIson: ...when PeoPIe do that we usually say, I can't decide wiLhout a plan. That's usually what we end uP coming back wiLh. conrad: John, you mentioned performance slandards and ule have a couPle in our o]d ordi.nance and we had some, we don't know if our old ordinance motivated anybody to do anything. Have you like, you can go doNn to 12,ooo square foot tot sizes and that's another issue. You know we iust don't know if it's doing anything because PeoPIe aren't coming in and demanding that. t,e just haven't seen a lot of requests for that but performance standards in general. Should He, that's one uay of having a formulated approach to !his but do you recommend !hat we have performance standards? Hou do we'find them? How do we make them fair? John Shardlow: t^lel] again, that's almost a subject for a whole other nighL's discussion and I've got LNo other carousels of slides to talk about performance standards but to me, Performance standards again are anolher way of achieving your goals while providing the develoPment community with flexibility. Because you're saying what we want is for rooftoP utilities to be totally screened from off site view and ue strongly encourage you to do that with an extension of the Parapet waII. f mean what it's saving is this is the objective. Heet it anvHav that it makes sense in the total context of your project. So from that st.andPoint, you're accomPlishing your objective and you're not saying aII screening shall be done wiLh wood picket fences. No more than, you know you're not creating a standard that is so rigid as to deny a flexibilitv on hour it's achieved. So should vou have performance standards? As a designer and as a Planner ' I think it's a much better way to 9o than any rigidly construed set of how to's that gets incorporated into a zoning ordinance. Erhart: John, what did you mean when you said Eden Prairie doesn'L give you zoning until they see the whites of )zour eyes? John Shardlow: In the CiLy of Eden Prairie it is their Practice to Ieave Iand zoned agricultural until they review a specific develoPment proposal at r^rhich time they uill zone in accordance urith their comPrehensive PIan. Erhart: Okay. And I'II tell you, I sat there and listened to that whole. I Iistened to your uhole Presentation and I'Il 9o back specifically to the development that we had for these high densitv aPartments up here and they come in. You've got your ordinance that allows tlhat, R-12 or something. tle look at it and ure aII sav it's craPPv. It's too dense and not enough open space and I look at that and I go, tlhv do He zone it R-12? t^lhv don't you start ou! with either something lower or just go single family Planning Commission Meet i n9 March 20, f99t - Page 43 residential and then and say yeah , really Erhart: My quest ion R-r2? go back and encourage somebody to come in with a PUD deep down ule do urant some apartments up there. is, r.rhy do we have anything in the zoning map that's Krauss: ThaL shows one of the other advantages of a PUD. I meanunfortunately that was a pre-zoned piece of property where yor,i had adeveloper who said, I'm going to cram as many units as I can in there andI'm going to do the absolute minimum your ordinance requires, But weplayed that game with him. Every time he quoted something out of theordinance, we quoted something else that was in there and it got to be avery uncomfortable contensious situation. Krauss: First of aI1Place. one of the th somebody did have a r , had we never pre-zoned that thing, in the firstings I like about a PUD is if you came along, sayroject you found acceptable. You approved it as aPUO. For r^rhatever reason the project never goes. you,re not Ieft with apiece of R-12 zoning sitting around uaiting for something bad to happen.You've got a piece of property with the only thing that,s approved on it isthat project that you Ii. ked and anybody that h,ants to do anything else has!o get a compretelv new zoning which gets back to the additionar authoritythat John touched on. rL's one of the enhancements Lo the pUD that it'sthere and it's added protection for the city and for the residents. Erhart: I guess whal I'm saying, in conjunction with this pUD I thinkought to Iook at some of these zoning areas and say hey, Iet,s give ourseLves a little control on this and let,s back off on some of thiszoning and at the same time encourage to come in and make a pUD so weget some control over it. fJe can John Shard.low: Yeah. Please don't hear me saying that pUD,s is the cureaII because it isntt. You still have to look at all your standards and youstill have to scrutinize aII of the land in your community to find if it'szoned and guided the right ulay, There's no question you still have to dothat but maybe if you ended up with a schlocky multipLe project, yourstandards in the multiple family district aren't strong enough. Emmings: RiSht. Conrad: I don't know, I like PUD's but you know I'd rather have,back to if you bring in the right developer, you're going to haveproduc! and j.f you get a bad deveLoper you're not 9oin9 to and I'that our PUD ordinance is going to make a big difference. As bigdifference as having the right developer come into town. it gets a better m not sure a EIIson: Yeah, but if you have a bad developer, you have more control overthem with a PUD. That's why I'd try to go out and get more pUD's but likeyou saidr uJe can't zone it that uray. How.can we aggressively encour-age it?Just state it everywhere? Erhart: You're right. YouIot of work. It appears to can i ncrease me it's a lot performance standards buteasier to douln zone your it's a areas PIanni ng March 20 Commission Meet i ng !99! - Page 44 that you'd like to have PUD's. EIlson:Then what? Then force the But how do you developer to come in. telI a deveLoper you're thinkins of changing that Er hart : EI Ison: o ne? John Shardlow: You're entering inLo a whole different discussion in terms of your philosophy and your attitude and vour relationship with the development community, That's something you have !o work out for yourself. r mean the role that vou play and the uray in which your community represents itself to the develoPment community is something that you have to decide philosophically. obviously Eden Prairie feels that that way of approaching it is better. If push came to shove in my honest opinion, I think it's illegal what Eden Prairie does but they've never been chal lensed . Emmings: It's Iike spot zoning. they're refusing to zone in accordance wilh theirJohn Shardlow: t^le I I comprehensive plan. Krauss: trhi ch makes sense toto do. do here. and unti IuJe do I also told them ue're challenged that i!'s a little on it, that's what iffy but it ue i nte nd Erhart: I know but there's nobody forcing them to zone a specific high density. Hultiple housing high densitv. Krauss: No, and we don't have an intention of Pre-zoning any more other than the new MUSA land. You know the new MUSA is sort of advantageous in a lot of urays. It's raw land. It's aII zoned ag- starting urith a clean slate out there. It gets a lot tougher uhen Erhart: tJe're not looking at any high density? Krauss: t^le've got some continue to be zoned ag neu, that are guided high density but thev spot pr oper ty l.,e'reyou're - new areas Erhar!: t^lell what I would suggest, when we get Lo the zoning map is we make everything RSF. John Shardlow: tle've done exactly what you've said in the city of Burnsville where in the multi-family residential district you're allowed to 9o up to something like 12 units per acre and then over and above that, if you go lhe planned unit development route, you can get up to 26 units Per acre if you do underground parking and other things like that. So that idea of saying you have a right based upon the underlving zoning to 9o to 12 and you 90 beyond that but the only way we're going to allow you to do that is to go through Planned unit development. But again I'm going to caution you that your standards still. need to be reasonable and what you PLanning Commission Meet i ng March 20, !99]. - Page 45 exac! out of the process still has to be reasonable because youget auay from the ability or the responsibility of being held to can never that. Conrad: So what encourages a developer to ask for a pUD? John Shardlow: In uhich circumstance? I mean rea1Iy, you keep pinning me down and it really depends on the specific project. In the event of NearMountain, they needed, they wanted the flexibility to develop some smallerlots. Some lots closer to the ]ake. Some more flexibility in terms ofside yard seLback. In the case of the development along TH S, there,s aLot of constraints out there. There's a lot of wetlands. There's a lot ofwoodlands. There's a lot of topography Lo be dealt wiLh. It could providethe opportunitv to be more efficient in the development while stilr savingmore trees and being able to preserve those features. Batzli: But how do you encourage sroup of property owners? that a]ong TH 5 if there's a multiple John Shardlow: I could have swore we proposed it. BatzIi: Excuse me? John Shardlow: I said I couLd have suore we proposed it. Batzli: t^lell yes, granted but Iet's say but now that you've proposed ithere's nothing that says the people are actually going to do that. Ihow do r^,e encourage that in other areas? you proposed it in thatparticu.Lar area but I mean is there something that we as a city canproactively do to go out and get property owners in corridors Logelherdo something like that? t mea n to John Shardlow: The City of Burnsvill.e did a Highway 13 corridor studywhere they got alI of the Iandowners to participaLe in the process andplan. They had a task force and they did some short term goals and somemid term goals and some long term goals and adopted some goals andobjectives for the corridor and established some specific policies. Thingsthey were going Lo try and accomplish over time and one of the things thatkept coming back into that was encouraging the development of the corridorthrough lhe planned unit development process. Again, you can do a IoL toencourage. AlI I'm saying is you can't go ouL and say you're zoned plannedunit development and Lhe only Hay you can develop your property is by coming in here and negotiating with us and we'1I tell you Nhat you can dowith your land. And that's an attiLude thaL's out there and as long asyou're aware of that, you can encourage it in your plan. In your comprehensive plan. You can do corridor sludies. you can adopt policiesin your comprehensive plan. You can adopt standards in your ordinance thatsays if you want to do beyond Lhis level of intensity, Lhe only way r,le'Ilallow tha! is through planned unit devel,opment. There are some uses in somecities where I consult which can only be approved in the city Lhrough theplanned unit development. It doesn't exist as a permitted use orcondiLional use in any zoning district in the zoning community. One ofthose that comes to mind is a marina. In the City of Rosevi]le they had anexisling marina and they ulanted Lo alloul it to expand. It didn,t show up Planning March 20 Commission Meet i ng f99L - Page 46 as a conditional or permitted r-ise in any zoning district- They didn't want to make iL a conditional use in the R-1 disLrict because they didn't want any olher marinas in the community. So He developed a Planned unit development so that it allowed you that flexibility. Extremely flexible too 1 . chairman Conrad:meeting is Emmings: No, I'lI just turn it over !o Tim if you guys want ta]k. This is reaLly interesting. I h,ant to thank both of and talking to us. Ellson: l.le could have Emm i ngs :The The Emmings: 'okay, As far as, there's a Iandscapi ng issue can we push those over? put in the testing slati.on that way. has an announcement he'd Iike to make. I'm leaving. cIosed, to you stay andfor comi ng Erhart: t^,,hy don't you close the meeting and we can keeP going. Krauss: oh yeah, no problem. Emm i ngs : motion to okay. So then that concludes what's on our close the meeLi ng? couple of agenda items that, pending wetland Iegislation update, agenda. fs there a we 've PaPer got a and a Farmakes moved, Conrad seconded to adjourn the meeting- AII voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting uas adiourned at 11:15 P.mr. Submitted by PauI Kr auss Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim CHANHASSEN PLANNING COHHISSION REGULAR HEETING APRIL 3, 1.99I Chairman Emmings ca]Ied the meeting to order aL 7:35 p.m t,IEHBER S PRESENT: Brian STAFF BatzIi, PRESENT: Tim Er hart Farma kes ,Jeff Pau 1 Planner ; and Sharmi n OPEN DI SCUSSION: Ladd Conrad, Annette and Joan Ahrens EIIson, Steve Emmi ngs, Krauss, Planning Director; Jo Ann Olsen, SeniorAI-Jaff, Planner I PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPHENT ORDINANCE AHENDHENTS ,/DISCUSSION OF PUD'S FOR RESIDENTIA L DISTRICTS. Emmings: r guess what m going to propose that we do here is take them inorder and spend no more than 45 minutes per topic unless someone reallyfeels a burning urge to talk after that. Or maybe lre'lI spend 45-SOminutes on each one maximum and then come back to any one that peopre feerwe're not done with. So let's try to just focus and do that and get out ofhere. I don't know exactly. Conrad: ...good job but you Steve. I can see through the just Lold us r,,,e'd get out of here by 11:OOscreen. Emmings: No, I'm looking at the clock. Ahrens: Do we have Iimits on houl long each person can talk? Emmings: Let's not talk about it otherwise we'll burn up our 45 minutesestablishing a procedure. r guess r don't think paul needs to introducethis. I don't know what the best l.lay is Lo 90 through this. I,ri open tosuggestions but otherurise r think maybe we ought to go section by sectionthrough the stuff that PauI's written and then see what comments peoplehave. The other thing I wanted Lo ask paul , as far as r^,hat you,ve draftedfor revisions to lhe PUD ordinance, do you think that !^rhat's here is, youwrote this before we heard the presentations by shardlour and Terry Forbord. E.llson: They did a good job by the way. Emmings: Yeah. Did someone get them a Ietter and thank them? Krauss: I haven't but I could. Emmi ng5: Yeah, I spend their time.as background. think it would And I thousht Emmings: Yeah. Or to talkto get to what he's talkingreally good but I was going beir a good idea. It was nice of them to was kind of useful although it r^ras good about how !.le can put language i n our ordi nanceabout because what he's talking about soundedto ask you if you thought that what you 've Conrad: As primer - I wish we had more time to talk real issues. PlanningApril 3, Commission Heet i ng 199! - Page 2 written here and the direcLion that you're heading in revising the ordinance is going in that direcLion or is going to get us to where h,e can use the PUD ordinance in Lhe ways they were talking about? Krauss: Yeah. I think basically what we have drafted is consistent wiLh the model ordinance that John gave out. f mean the model's not revolutionary. t"Je've been, in Professional circles we've been seeing these things circulating for some time. fn terms of his intent or the intent statemenLs about achieving the kind of goals that were outlined when you reviewed the different types of developments, I also think that's in his document. one area though of the draft that I think warrants change has to do with single family development. Since the single familv chaPter of the PUD u,as so new and since Lhe experience in Chanhassen, or what we thought our experience in Chanhassen largely was with PUD's, aPPeared to be so unsaLisfactory, f didn't propose any changes !o our current PUD sLandards for single family. But I think that growing ou! of ParticularlY feYYY Forbord's commenLs or his illustration of what things can Iook Iike, I believe there's a 9,8O0 square foot lot, I think we may want to rethink our approach to those districLs. The way our single familv section is handled right now, it's basically designed to Prevent all the abuses that Ne experience but it doesn't give anybody any design guidelines or flexibility. Hence it wil] never be used. I think that that.can be rewritten to allow much reduced lot sizes in exchange for architectural and design standards i.n exchange for different but regimented setbacks. That in exchange for guarantees that plans wi]I come in with decks on them so we don'! have the variance problem, A variety of things that we can do. It wouldn't be too hard to tinker with thaL along those Iines and I didn't have a chance to do it before tonight but I really think Lhat vou should Iook at reLhinking the single family section. I found Forbord's comment, Terry on that pretty persuasive. And I think you're all aware that we in the planning department have been stung rePeatedlv with abuses of the PUD and even ure didn't want to touch it until we rethought the issue having heard urhat Forbord was saying so I think you can consider that. Emmings: Let me ask you this. Terry showed us pictures of verv small ]ots with houses with very small front yard setbacks. Do you think bv Iooking at someone's plan for a PUD that had those kinds of characteristics, do you think you could look at the PIan and teII hott it wound up Iooking so nice on the slide? Do you know what I mean? Krauss: Yeah, and I don't think you can because the shots, t*lhat makes the shots very pretty are the background of the mature trees that werepreserved. The high end architecture. The hish end landscaPing and those kinds of things are sort of market driven. tlell actually, some of that you can. Ellson: t,ell tree preservation would certainly be a good trade off. Krauss: Right, tJhen you think about it, the PUD ordinance for single family can mandaLe those sorts of things. One of the issues I raise in the Iandscaping paper is that aII our IandscaPing standards comPletely ignore single family development which I think is uJrong. But certainly in a residential PUD you can demand a landscaPing budget for each house. You can demand higher level of tree preservaLion and those sorts of things soyou do have that authority. You do have the architectural ability to havearchitectural control . One of the things that r^rould happen in the pUD andwhat didn't happen in our old PUD's was that there would be a set ofcovenants or development contract would be filed against the property thatwould have very specific guidelines that every buyer would know going intothis. Any buyer that uses an attorney which should be anybody these days.ThaL lay out exacLly what the flexibitity and responsibilities are. Wenever had that with Pheasant Hj.LL. I mean the developer just said okay,we've got 1there was a setbacks burestriction o,oooIittt thesat square foot lots. Go do whatever you 're going to do andIe bi.t of flexibility on some of the setbacks, side yardy just went off without any IimiLations or direction oraII and I think Ne sah, the result. But b,e can easily IS rework this section to outline what we wan! in exchange for thisflexibility. And I'd be happy to tackle that if the planning Commission was. Emmings: t^te]l as long as Ne're on this subject why don,t we, page 13the single family detached PUD ordinance. Maybe we ought to just lookthat first. I guess my concern is this. I wonder if it's possible towrite an ordinance so we wind up with something that's going to be aseffective)y done as what h,e saw in those slides. I don't know if it'sstandards you write in Lhat give you that or if it,s jusL the qualitythe builder. the of ElIson: He's basically saying Lhat you can ask for more quality it soundsIike to me. Let's say they're not that caliber but they uJant a pUO. tlecan then impose to make them a higher standard. Maybe aIl his deveropmentshave been Iour end kind of siding or whatever. tle can nou say because you have the PUD, you can't do what you did in Brooklyn park. you've got to doone step better. t^le'd have more flexibility that way. Krauss: r think that's quite accurate. l^le don't !.rant !o have an ordinanceIoose enough thaf 's dependent upon the whim of the individual developer.Exactly what we'd want to do is be sure that we have a set of minimumstandards that say, you urant this flexibility. you Hant to achieve thistype of thing, you're going to have to basically buy it. Here,s how youbuy it. You give us the architectural standards. you give us Lhe designperameters. You give us the Iandscaping and tree preservation otherwiseyou don't get it. Go build your 15,OOO square foot IoLs. E]lson: And hopefully the trade off is good enough on their side too sothey can have more units in a smaller area or something Iike that. Krauss: Save on streets and save on utilities. Emmings: tliLh what's uritten here under (a) regarding aIIdeviations from the minimum ]ot sizes and so forth, wouldof aII of that? the minimums andyou just get rid Krauss: You'd want a mi nimum completelypossibly.that, yes. I thinks another thins you you'd sti I ] shou Id have Iot r ewor k There to size Planning Commission MeetingApril 3, L99! - Pase 3 PIanningApril 3, Commission Meet i ng l99l - Page 4 consider. t"lhen I wrote this housing uhich is a different I raised the potential of zero IoL line anima I . Emmings: tlelL this is the deLached section though. Krauss: I know but that's housing is often detached. on the property line. gets confusing because zero lot Iine has one wall of the building that sitswhere itIt just Emmings: So then this is real. incomPlele for what we're talking about now. Krauss: Yeah. Now I have drafted ordinances dealing urith zero Iot Iines and I eluded to that in this thing but I didn't give it to vou. I can do Lhat very quickly but yes, Ne comPletely have to drop or redo the standards pertaining to single family. Now for strict single family neighborhoods, you probably still want to have a minimum Iot size' You might weII consider that 5,OOO square feet is just absurd because that's a Minneapolis Iot and no matter what you do to the building, no matter what you do to landscaping, it's going to look like a MinneaPolis lot. But we sa!4 in thepicture that someLhing under 10,OOO square feet seemed to work so maybe you Hant to establish the minimum at 9,OOO. t,le can research Lhat a little bit. But you very clearly want to state what the trade offs are. Ellson: Now he didn't have a whole lot of 9's though. Ahrens: He jusL had a few and he was Positioned wiLh a pond behind them with mature trees. That makes a bie difference rather. ElIson: Right, versus the whoLe thing turning into a cul-de-sac - Krauss: You give them the flexibility and then they come to you with the design so we don't have to do that. Ue just have to critique it. One other thing that we've never done in PUD's that this ordinance does and we shouLd do in single family is, I've altravs firmlv believed that within a PUD you give lots of flexibility. tlhere that PUD bumPs inLo traditiona] development, you're very careful to insure that that outside blends- ThaL alon9 the perimeter you've established sufficient setbacks that Iooks like the development next door. befor e?Emmings: Sounds Iike a blending ordinance. EIIson: Ne threw that away a Iong Have we Don't a Iot bee h bring here t hatLime this 490 . needs UP agarn. Are peopleEmmings: tlell are people, I think interesLed in zero lot lines? of revision. Erhart: How do you maintain the HaII that's adjacent to the next guy? Krauss: Covenants . Erhart: Doesn't the roof have to cover both of them? PlanningApri] 3, Commission MeeLi ngl99t - Page 5 Krauss: No. Most zero lot lines, there's different kinds of zero lot.Iines. A townhouse could be zero lot line but that's zero Iot lineattached. Physically the walls are attached. They have, they call them z.Iined or zero Iot Iine where they have relatively small building area and one exterior wall of that detached home is shoved onto or virtuallyadjacent to one of the property lines and lhen the open space that they have is generally courtyard type concepts, Very highly landscaped. fntenseutilitization of relatively smaII areas and usually enclosed by privacy fence or hedges or somethins Iike that. Erhart: So the buildings aren't next to each here and other? Krauss: No . scattered. They could be one over then one over there. Just Ahrens: Aren't those houses on Hinnetonka Boulevayd zeyo lot lines? Krauss: Yep - ExacLIy , Krauss: I haven'L been over there to see how thatordinance I wrote for Minnetonka for zero lot linespecifically to allow that project to go ahead. Lurned out but the homes was wr itten Ahrens: They're almost aIl buiIt. Krauss: Bu! there are additional trade offs that you Nant to insure withzero IoL Iines that you don't normally do with small lot single family. Because what happens with zero ]ot ]ine is you're so close to the otherParty that you have to have sLrict architectural controls to make sure thatthe bathroom window of this house doesn't look into the living room windowof the next house or that the air conditioner compressor isn't under thekitchen window of the next house. You know-..Iocation of util.ities is realimportant. Ahrens: And there's obviously no decks. Krauss: They actually put their design in from the outseL because I remember going through some models over there that they do have decks inthe back. In fact zero lot line traditionally, what they use for openspace is you have very small private open spaces adjacent to the buildingbut they open up onLo common spaces that they have Iandscaped greenways that run down kind of a central court behind these units and that they openup onto it and you restrict fencing that would cut tha! up into littlepieces so it becomes an amenity. It's a different animal though again Lhan smal I Iot single family. EIlson: The benefit is what? It's giving peopl.e affordable housing? Krauss: tlhat you find, yeah. Terry made a Iot of comments about buildingfor specific markets. Demographers will have oodles of information showing Ahrens: They're across just west of City Hall on the south side of Minnetonka Boulevard. PIanningApri] 3, Commission Meet i ng !991 - Pase 5 you the aging of the baby boom, the aging of society and whaL not. People looking to get out of traditional single familv homes have often traditionally looked to get into townhomes. Tom [.lorkman's neighborhood is virtually entirely seniors at this Point because of the housing stvle Lhat he's in. Zeyo ]ot line homes tyPically are kind of move out housing for middle and older aged folks. Ellson: Empty nesters? Krauss: Yeah, exactly. Because it's no! cheap housing. It's oftentimes quite expensive. There's economies in doing it that tray but you can build to different market segments but there's very IittIe Private maintenance required. Because of the close proximity lhat you have, you have maintenance, cooperative maintenance for building exteriors- You have cooperative maintenance for landscaPing areas and private streets. 5o a Iot of that stuff as in the Lownhouse is taken care of by an association ' You may have tennis courts, pools, those sort of things too. Emmings: So where are we? As far as the section has to be rewriLten and anything it would always be a PUD? single family detached, that to do with zero Iot lines I take Krauss: Yes. Emmings: tJe wouldn't treat that under any other. Krauss: WeII there's really no other uav of effectively doing it. i mean I suppose if you had, weII even that, there's no standards district that could accommodate it because you basically have condominium Iots on those things. It doesn't fit in any d.istrict. Emmings: Risht. 5o that would be Part of this secLion or part of this ordi na nce? Krauss: And if, it sounds Like you're somewhat interested, I've got a lot of research information. Planning magazine articles and stuff on that tyPe of development. Emmings: Let's ask if people are interested in having him move thaL uP to take a look at it. Is anybodv not interested? Balzl.i: I think it'd be fun. I don't know if there's a mar ket in this community for that yet. Emmi ngs: l^,e can get ahead of that maybe . Farmakes: There's a lot of seniors. Emmings: You're the one who's always talking about being Proactive. Batzli: okay, Iet's be proactive. EIIson: Proactive. Go for it. PlanningApri] 3, Erhart: You're asking about the zero Commission Heeti n9 199f - Pase 7 tlel I yeah. Reworking this up so Ne can look at it. They've aII see in those Iot Iine? section and including having him draft to i nvi!e happen. And if it's done to a Emm i ngs : something Emm i ngs : Iike you go. Emmings: Is this something that you've essentiallv got? Krauss: Yeah. It's something that, I don't want to mislead you - I'm going to puII it off the shelf and revise it to fit this context so iL's not a tremendous amount of wor k. Emmings: Does that change your mind? Erhart: Do you think you're inviting, bv putting it into the ordinance, are you inviting that kind of develoPment? Krauss: I honestly don't believe a citv has the ability something. If the market's not there, it's not going to it's done in a manner that makes sure that if it happens standard that the community finds accePtable. Emmings: You know what it sounds like? It sounds like a great kind of development to do around a golf course. BatzLi: It does. Ahrens: Yeah it does, El Ison: Truthfully you're right. course. That is how they back uP to a golf goL their own little golf cart right in their garage places down souLh and they just drive right over and Krauss: One of the things Hinnetonka did too which heLps to avoid some of the direct impacts in single family neighborhoods is thaL they restricted zero lot line type development only to those areas that urere guided for medium to high density housing. t^lhen you're develoPing at thaL intensity, you're no ]onger within the o to 4 density range and ne shouldn't mislead anybody to think they can get that in there unless there's a tremendous amount of open sPace. Emmings: okay. Let's mavbe go back to the intent section then. 2O*5o1 ' El lson: tjhere are you? I 'm sorry . Erhart: f guess given the list of work items we've got and thequestionability of whether there's a market for that here, I guess I would prefer the approach that Minnetonka had and that is, if someone comes in and wants to do a development, then develop an ordinance around that. To have them work on this is taking something else. PIanning April 3, Commission Heet i ng 799f - Page 8 Emmings: [^Je're on page 3 in the stuff that PauI gave us. from the back.Krauss: If you work your packet Emmings: Yeah, I'm looking at that. E].Lson: It's page 3 if you work from the back? Batzli: t^Jhat are He doins? Emmings: I thought hJe'd just 9o through this section by section, unl.esspeople u,ant to do someLhing else.. -but maybe we could just, if you lookfrom the back and 9o into the packet to page 3, that's trhat Pau.l's writtenhis intent statement. He's redrafted Section 2O-5O1 . I don't know ifpeople have any comments on that. It's very similar to what we hadoriginally. Batzli: That's a l.ot of stuff. To me it Looks like our comprehensive plangoals. I read this and I thought, Hom's Apple Pie ParL II. Emmings: 'Yeah, it'smeans. It's vague. Batz] i : I'd ratherit actuaIIy. hard to comment on it whenI don't know what else you don't know what it do. you can hold off on the intent until we go through the rest of Emmings; Anybody else want to comment on the intent section? Ellson: I like it and I was thein the comprehensive plan in case So I like it. It speLls it out. one who a].L for com i ng the fr om was are Hom the and Apple Pie olher side.peop.L e Emmings: A).right, le!'s go on to 2O-5O2 then. The proposed 2O-5O2. Batzlir You know, I guess if, Iet me make one comment on the intentsection. I remember, unfortunately, that we were talking about this in thecontext of residential and PauI kept saying, you know u,e want to do Lhismore in an industrial selting. I don't know. Uhen I read this, all Ithink of is residential. And whenever we tark about it and even the peopleue had here didn't, they talked about it a little bit, integrating officewith maybe some higher density uses but they really didn't talk about i.t Ithought in Lhe context that you were trying to push the pUD. I mean that,sthe feeling I get. I don't know if I'm misreading where you were going orno! . Krauss: I asked them to touchthat John showed in his slides developed as PUD 's . on the range of things and some of thewere Iike industrial office parks Lhat stuff wer e Batzli: I Nent by one the other day. I checked it out.SouLhdale. I think there uas one that they had showed.really nicely. I think it was Southdale. It u,as on the The one over by That was donenorthwest. It's Planning Apri] 3, Commission Meeti ng 799! - Page 9 conrad: They did the Eden Prairie one. I wasn't sure what was PUDish about that - Krauss: t^Jel.I ones that I'm directly famiLiar with. The Carlson Center in Minnetonka is a PUD. MinneLonka CorPorate Center on the Crosstown is a PUD. In Edina, the whole Edinborough comPlex is a PUD. Coincidentallv, I think you may recall that the 137 acr e area outside of Timbert,ood r,ras left residential but there were some guidelines put in Lhere that is somebodv wanted to do non-residential, the City mav consider it. If it tlas done as PUD subject !o some very strict guidelines as to quality of develoPment and buffering and preservation and school site and everything else. It took about, well a month and we already have a maior Twin Cities industrial developer who's talking to us about coming in under those guidelines, and is very comfortable with the PUD. In fact, prefers to do it that way. Ellson: A good one? Kr auss : Erhart: Yeah. Develop what? Krauss: Basical I y an offic understand the r equ ir ements for preservation of natur a I don'L know if that antidota of lhe handiest places to u comments on allowed uses, w about and that I'd like to specific " Right now if You housing, you can have a hig that mix of flexibility thaget an effective large scal small percentage, 252 of Lh uses if it's consistent Nit developing 137 acres or som density residential . TheY There's a lot of varieLies ark. Off i ce,z i ndustr i a I park. But they r hish end architecture and for buffering and atures and it's fine with them so far. So I geLs to your issue but that's probablv one it. Now when we get onto this Page 5 with my et to one of the things that John was talking in here is that our PUD ordinance is verv ve an area that's guided for high densitv ensity PUD. Nothing else. It's not all'owing real important as Part of a trade off and to evelopmen!. t^,lhat we've Proposed is tha! a UD could be used for non-disLrict designated he plan. Now if somebodv's ]ooking at ortion of that, they may utant to have high want to have a small service commercial . things that Lhey may want to consider and you ep fo fe I Iy eg see ha hd t'sed ePhr EP may of may want to give them that flexibility. The way the ordinance is reworded here gives that flexibility that doesn't Presentlv exist. Emmings: ooes anyone have other comments on either the, are you satisfied you got your question answered? Batzli: No but we'1l come back to it though. Emmings: Okay. On 2O-5O2. Any comments there? Batzli: Does it have to be consistent with the comprehensive I don't understand. In (a) it savs if it's not designated in comprehensive plan if the Citv Councit finds that use, during plan? I mea n thethat process on the west side of it I think. I was confused because I was coming at it from north to south. Krauss: I think if I may. 5O3 gets to the point where we startthe water out urith the bath water. Ue say that you,ve got to becoordinated with subdivision regu).ations and that,s fine but itnothing that you have to coordinate with wetland or shoreland orstandards or site plan review or anything else. Emmi ngs: tlel I that's 504.IN t' hat Krauss: I wiIIIi ke the Nay we Iet Jo Ann explain do it. gross and net. I don't particularly Jo Ann olsen: The 5 acres? Emmi ngs: The 5 net. throwing saysparking Krauss: tJe get i nto later but the issue is raised there. Emmings: t^,eII I'm going through looking at the proposed. I don'tIook at the old one, or at least for a format for getting throughIooking at what you proposed. The 5 net acres, minimum irea 5 netHow do you arrive at a figure of that 5? r4a nt to here I'm acres. Jo Ann Olsen: tle've just a]b,ays, thatsubdivisions where we'd always, are you came in taI ki ng with the wetlands about net versus and other 9r oss? Krauss: Uh-huh. PIanning Commission Meet i ngApril 3, 1991, - Page 10 do we have to change the comprehensive plan then? Krauss: It actua.Ily depends. It's one of those things. If it's asignificant amount of deviation that it trips a l.letro Council review,you'II have to change the comprehensive plan. But r,Jhat this is doing, thisis my opinion and this is how I've done it in the past is that, if you,vegot a hundred thousand square foot of development and 75,OOO square foot ofit is exactly what you said it was going to be and 25,OOO square foot isrelated, although somewhat different, you're being consistent with theintent of the plan and that's what the premise of this is and that youshouldn't have to go through a comprehensive plan amendment to achi.evethat. Now if you're talking about mega-miIlion square foot development,then the Metro Council's going to ask you Lo 9o through a revieta becauseyour impact on roads and what not and the sewers are going to be different.Keep in mind too we don't need to put in a specific slatement here thatsays development has to be consistent with the comprehensive plan becausewe did thal for the entire zoning ordinance. Emmings: It's in another place in this proposed ordinance too isn't it? Krauss: That may have been redundant. Ellson: I think it's in the intent thing that development which isconsistent with the comprehensive plan. Under inLent number 11. Emmings: Anyone else have comments on 5O2? Hour about 5O3? Planning Apri] 3, Commission MeeLi ng 1991 - Page 11 Jo Ann o]sen:net acres and tlhere one part of Lhe then the comprehens ive zoning ordinance it referred to it asplan referred to gross. Emm i n9s: No ,I knour Nhat the net means. I think I do" You're talking about r.,hy 5?Jo Ann Olsen: Emm i ngs: Yeah . Krauss: 5 in particular? BatzIi:Tag, Yeah.Emmi ngs :If it's a uord she does it. If it's a number he does it. Krauss: I wish I had a great reason for you but I don't know. older ordinances used to have much larger minimum lot areas for PUD's and the premise was that PUD's are something to be feared. That this flexibility,if it backfires so you've got to make it big enough so that your problems can be buried in the middle someplace. But there's something to be said for having a minimum ]ot size I believe for a PUD. Our current thinking in PUD's is that, here you have this envelope where you've approved andthere's a big blank space and anything goes within that. I think that's the wrong impression to give that you have to define what you're going toget in there but you are giving a lot of flexibility and I have difficulty with the premise that you can take a ! L/2 acre parcel in the middle. of a single family neighborhood, designate i.t a PUD and do an adequate designjob that not only meeLs that PUD but blends into the surroundings. Ellson: But you know, I got that out of hi.s Presentation that even a single subdivision could be done creatively and that's exaclly why I had aquestion. And he was talkins about that exact thing. Abou! you couJ.d save that grove of trees and let the Person move it aII to one side, Lherefore I liked the idea of either taking off the restrictions or making it rea]Iv small so it sounded Iike you could be as creative on a single Iot as you could 5 acres and I question the numbers. UeII more from what he sold me on last time. Krauss: I remember his comments and I honestly think he oversold it at that point. And there's some flexibility in here too. It's 5 acres minimum but there's 3 options here that may aIlow something different. If you have unusual topograPhic conditions. Maybe you have a peninsula surrounded by a wetland and it's got a very sma]I buildable area and the only thing you can do is unique and interesting and comPlex on that finger of land. Then you can determine, you and the City Council can make a determination that it fits that criteria and you don't even need to give it a variance. BasicalLy you just ascerta.in that it meets that criteria and you can 9o wi.Lh a 3 acre PUD or 2 acre PUD. If it's adiacent to another PUD, you may find that a small. one is consistent with whaL's across the street so it's okay and that's another oPtion. And the Lhird one, and it's one that I've used periodically is that you mav have a very tough site that's in the transition area and you really r.lant to'do something sPeciai with it. Something that's on the fringe of the downtown commercial area or PlanningApril 3, Commission Heet i ng f99L - Page !2 Batzli: By making it smaller would you open yourself up to having builderscreate otheruise unbuildable Iots and then trying to have them designated as PUD'S? Krauss: I wouldn't put it past them. Conrad: I like 5 acres. Emming5: Okay. Anyone else have comments on that section? l"lell andI guess what I hear you saying is for Lhe developer to get what he wants and for the City to get something out of it and to also take intoconsideration what's surroundins it, it takes some, usualLy it's going totake a fair amount of ground. It's not going to be a singLe lot. Otherwise somebody's going to get short changed. Krauss: Right. Emmings: That makes sense Lo me I guess. Then on the proposed 5O4. I was wondering why, and if you look over at, on page 11. It's the new 2O*5O5 and under (j), it says requiremenls contained in Supplement Regulations,off-street parking, Iandscaping and those others aII may be applied by theCity as it deems appropriaLe. Then (i) it says, signs shall be restrictedand I'm wondering why in 5O4 when we're talking abouL coordination withother zoning regulations we don't have those over there and why we don,thave a broad statement that it has to be coordinated uith essentially aII.You know all of those specific ordinances because I guess what I'm thinkingabout is if this is going to apply to office and commercial , the signordinance is always going to apply at least as a minimum kind of standardand if they uiant to deviate from it, they're going to have to win some kindof special approval . And if after this is passed He pass the bluffordinance, u,e hrant to be sure that r^ras caught here or the landscaping ord i nance . something that backs up to, well I've got a good for instance. In fact it came out of the discussions with Lhe develoPer on that 137 acYe tract. Do you recall that there's a very difficult hillside east of Timberuood where a power line runs jusL west of where the creek is that nobody can figure out how to get to, much less deve.Iop. This particular. developer, you know I uas talking about trying to buffer Timberulood and I said, this parcel's difficult to set to, especially from Audubon Road. It's going to be difficult to serve. It's going Lo need bridges - There's some environmental impacts and you're not going to be able Lo do a whole heck of a lot when you get up there anyway because we have homes over the ridge. That I think you should ]eave thaL residential and we'Il access it somehow from the west. Aehind Timberwood. That might be an ideal candidate for residential PUD and I don'! know how large that is because remember, it's just a littlebit of buildable ground and then it drops off into the creek. That's atransition area. So you could designate a 3 acre PUD up on that hilIside. So I think you've got some flexibility built in but by establishing a minimum you avoid somebody real schlocky trying to push through somethingin the middle of a single family neighborhood where it really doesn't belong. PlanningApri] 3, Commission Meeti n9 199t - Page 13 Krauss: A couple things. I think ure possibly can combine some of thesethings so they read betLer but when we're asking for coordination uith other zoning regulations, right now it !,as never clear that once you had a PUD that you had to have a site plan approval. I mean even. a separate application, a separate process. In a PUD you may do it all at the same time. Market Square is the buildins at the same time you're doing a PUD but when we have a Iarge scale PUD over 90 acres or 1oo acres, you're going to first approve the plan and then over a 5 year oy 7 yeay period they wiII have individual buildings that come in- Each one of those individual buildings should be required to be subjected to a site plan review and should be, you know under the parameters established by !hat develoPment contract which may deviate from the ordinance but Lhat's okay becauseyou've laid it out. Then what we're trying to get into, I don't know if Lhat jibes all that well urith what's on page 11 but that's basically saying that we have standards that are in these sections. There's no other P]ace. For example, when we approve Market Square, the way the ordinance is drafted right now, every other section of the ordinance urent out of the window. There urere no parking standards to review t'larket Square against. Emmings: tJell, maybe I'm looking at this wrong. The way I ]ook at this is this. If .somebody comes in and says they're interesLed in doing a PUD on a piece of ground, ule say Iook at aII of our other zoning ordinEnces because this is what we regard as, I don't knout, normal or desireable or whatever. And you can propose what you want buL be aware that this is what we regard as what we like in the city and you can deviate from that if you've goL a reason or you give us something else. Krauss: Right . Emmings: So l don't know why that wouldn't be true of virtualLy our whole ordinance or cerlainly more sections than, I don't know whv these are listed here. I'd be happy if there was iust some kind of a catch all and I don't care if these are listed but there ought to be some kind of a catch all thal would catch not only other Parts of the ordinance but new Parts of the ordinance as they come on line in Lhe future. Krauss: I'Il take a look at that. There's some Parts of the r^rouldn't want to lrip occasionally like if something is a CUP district but you've permitted it under. ordinance you in the BH Emmings: ,..jargon so I won't knour what the heII he's talking about. Krauss: t^iell a conditional use Permit. Emmings: That much I got. Kraussr In the business highr.ray district. If something is like a gas station. If it's a conditional use Permit in a commercial district, you don't want to then aulomatically make it a conditional use Permit in the PUD. You've already approved it in the PUD. You don't want to be forced to apply that section. You shoul.d make it go through a site Pl'an review so that as a specific PIan for that gas'station inside the PUD's developed' you've reviewed it and you've confirmed to your satisfaction that it met PlanningApril 3, Commission Meet i n9 7991 - Page 74 Is our procedure written nou, to do what you for a site plan on each individual buiLding the design standards you approved in the development contrac! - Now that may mean it met the parking standards in the site plan ordinance or it met somelhing that you found more Suilable. But at leasL we can refer back to that section and get some parameters to deal uith Emmings: them bac k Krauss: Emmi ngs : Kr auss : Emmi ngs : Krauss: And whencontract on a 1OOof approval stateprocedure. No. Is that 9oin9 to That's why I caII Okay. Okay. be redrafted out the site just that said? comes To get r n'? along with this revision? plan revieu section under 20-504. you do a development contract, if we do a developmentacre site, the development contract will as a condition each building shalI be subject to a sile plan review Emmings: Okay. Does anyone else have anything on 5O4? Conrad: tlelL r,:hat are we saying about the standards? tlhat directionyou heard about some of the standards that h,e have in lhere? SLipping, 12,OOO or 13,OOO or 9,OOO. Have He commented on that? Emmings: You mean on the single family? The 5O5? Conrad:I'm looking 5O5 wi]l be at 504 , required standards. Batzli:his new required standards. have to Krauss: The 5O4 weordinance. The 5O4 re just talking about now is the 5O4 in the rewrittenyou're referring to is the oLd ordinance. Confusing. Conrad: t,e're not at, okay. Emmings: Let's go onto lhe proposed 5O5. Now r,.Jhat Nasdid you r^rant to ask PauI there? I didn't understand iL your comment? tlhat Conrad: tJhether ble believe in the standards that we set in the previousordinance. Uhether they uere, and that's what we rea]Iy didn,t get fromlast week or the previous week's meeting. tlhether ke hrere encouragi.ngPUO's with r.rhat we could offer which uas we do see Iot sizes below the 15,OOO square foot standard. Emmi ngs: I tracking that. L.t lson: 1 'm not dor 't either. Emmings: I thought, first of aII I thought that issue was covered in SO5.In the proposed 5O5. And I thought we talked earlier about Lhe fact Planning ApriL 3, Commission l.,leeting 7991 - Page 15 that, PauL's going to rewrite that and he might be cutting it doh,n to something eIse. Conrad: Yeah I guess, okay. Let's ulait until we get to 506. Emmings: Okay. f guess as far as 5O5 is concerned, I don't understand (e) under hard surface coverage and floor area ratio. Those things mean nothing to me. I don't know where they come from or u,hat it would urind up. See it's like I said before, I don't know when I read these things what the developmenl's going to wind up Iooking like if it's Lhis number or another number. Krauss: HelI that's where there's an educationaL process that's required. Hard surface coverage you're familiar uJith I think. [^ie have that standard in each distric! right now. The hard surface coverages in here I think are roughly comparable Lo what we have in individual districts and Lhat's kind of interesting because again, going back to Mar ket Square. one of the primary premises for Harke! Square 9oin9 as a PUD was because they couldn't meet hard surface coverage requiremenLs. I think that's okay to a degree but again, don't throw the baby out urith the bath water. You don't tlant to have a 99:a hard surface coverage site. You can't do that and be compatible with the PUD's. So this is now puLting in some minimal hard surface, max hard surface coverage requiremenls tha! would apply to PUD's as we]l as they apply to non or regular district development. EIIson: But where'd the number come from? I agree with Steve. It doesn'tpicture anything to me that, you knott u,e're putting a stake in the ground yet I don't see Lhat's where the stake should be anymore than. El Ison: Yeah. Kraussr tlell if you have 5oz hard surface coverage on a 10 acre site,5 acres of it can be paved or buildings. Emmings: I don't know what that makes the Place look like but I guess maybe you don't know that until you have a PIan. Krauss: This isn't lhat different from what you have riShL now. sur faceEmmings: I'm not as uncomfortable with the imPervious requirements. Floor area ratio. t,Jhat does that mean? Krauss: Yeah, floor area ratio becomes imPortant if you geL multi story development. Primarily. And maybe it's Premature in Chanhassen, I don't know, Basically what floor area ratio is if you have a floor area ratio of l and you have a l acre site, you can have a l acre building. tlell that might be a 10 sLory buildins with each floor is 4,3oo square feet. okav? It ties into the gross sile area. It's a ratio between the gross site area and how much building you can have on it. If downtown HinneaPolis has fLoor area ratios of 30 or 40. You knor., the IDS building vou have, I don't know how many acres of building on a relatively small site. It's a Krauss: tlhat, the percentage? Planning April 3, Commission Meet i ng 799t - Page 15 guideline for intensity of development basically, of a 1.8 building or 1.5?EIIson: t^lhat's an examplea 2 story building? Is lhat usually Iike Krauss: No, you'd have to have more. First of all, if you have site, you can only develop I L/2 acyes of it so and then you haveparking and what not. That might be a 4 story office building. to, I can probably give you some real examples. a 10 acre surface ff we want Batzlir Is the floor area ralio calculated on the net though? Because the hard surface coverage is calculated on the gross isn't it? Or net? Do you exclude wetlands on the hard surface coverage? I don't remember anymore. Krauss: tJeI I Lo exclude it Batzli; also on I guess yeah - If we so back to can clarify that the uray the ordinance is writLen right now, we'd have conrad: ShouId exclude it, Okay. So that's on the net. And the floor area ratio then isthe net? Krauss:yes. t^le !he but earlier section of the ordinance I would say yes . Emmings: I think uue need some examples of what we're talking about lhere. Number one, do we need it at all? And number two, whaL does it mean? Idon't know how you're going to give us a feel for that but I think we needit. Kraussi f 've goL some books that give illustrations of what it relates to.f can give you that. Again, it may be premature in Chanhassen. I don't know when we're going to see. tlhere it rea]Iy comes into play is if you'vegot a high end office park with tourers. Primarily. Then it really comesinto play. Because it gets to building massing. You know, do you want ablock of buildings that block out the sun or do you b,ant, I mean if you'regoing up, then it's got to be narrow because the building can only occupyso much space. There's a trade off that the designer has to go through. So it may be premature in Chanhassen. Conrad: Currently PauI the low density hard surface coverage, I,m skippingfrom floor area ratio, I don't realLy know how important that is but wehaven't had that standard. tJe have had the hard surface coverage standardsrig,ht? Let me bounce back to that. The low density hard surface coverageunder a subdivision. That tras Iike 3O2? Krauss: That's cur rent? Conrad: Yeah current. Krauss: I don't know. Planning Apri] 3, Commission Heet i ns 1997 - Page 77 Yeah, so I think you bounced them up. I is let us, and it may make sense. We jusL make sure that that's what we r^lant. Conrad: I Lhink it's Iike 3O% so basically what Paul is suggesting is bumping iL up to 5O2. And I think, high densily's probably the same.you bumped up the other numbers here too? The office, commerciaL,industrial? Have those gone up a Iittle bit? Krauss: I'd have to check Commissioner. olsen: They're usually 60z, 652" and 7OZ - Ha ve Conrad: say i ng Iike to guess wha! steve have to see what Emmings: And maybe teII us what the pros and cons are, conrad: Yeah. t^lhen you go from, in your residential neighborhood, when you go from a 3OZ coverage to a 5OZ, that's a lot of coverage. Again, if it looks okay and it makes sense, we should do iL but so far we haven't had a problem.in the residential areas uith that. If it encourages something we like, it shoutd do it. It's sort of tough to deal with right now in terms of ratios. Krauss: Hell I must admit, I've used these ratios before but I never had a development come close Lo them so they probably sat somewhat hish and give them some flexibility. On the other hand, it's a minimum and ue've had exampl,es of people trying to push the minimum and you may want to have something that you can faII back on and say you've got to have at least this. Batzli: f! seems that our numbers are ordinance aIlor,rs this. tlhy won't you Krauss: tJell we'lI get you some more usual Iy usedgive it to me? information on Emm i ngs : !^le I I a nd see how they we've been doing in the Past. compare to what we've Batzli: I guess I'm just kind of stunned bv the floor medium densily residentia] as being o.5. If you had apreLty small lot, I would think that would be more of had a 2 story townhouse or something- agai nst us . Your both of those. already got and what area ratio of the tohrnhouse on a a problem, If you Kr auss : Batzli: kind of Olsen: BatzI i : tJhat 's the a lot do you minimum need? t^Je I l if you have a 2 story townhouse . square footage for a townhome for a lot? What Is there any mi nimum? 20,ooo. Is it 20,OOO? Okay. Krauss: WeI I currenLly there establish a new minimum. But if you go r^rith a PUD, you'd have had a 1o,ooo square foot Iot and to thereLsifbu! you isiL Iooks PlanningApril 3, Commission Meet i n9 1991 - Page 18 was an FAR of O.5 and you square foot of the lot onyou'd only have a quarter BatzIi: Emm i ngs : BatzIi: Emmi ngs : with 506. had two oft 2 stor y floors he lot building, and that's occup i ed , you'd only have 2,5OOa pretty big unit. But Batzli: True. I take it aII back. Strike that from the record. Emm i ngs :- Any other . Inane comments? Thoughtless comments on section 5O5? I'm sure I'II have some if you give me a minute. l.le're reaching our time Iimit here- 506? Ladd's got something Conrad: For the last two sections I've had something with 506. Just te]l me urhich dection we're talking about. Emmings: NelI 5O5. It's time Ladd. Conrad: UiII you play back the tape that I had a few seconds ago Nann?Basically iL's just, I'm interesLed in what PauI feels are standards thatwe'II be encouraging. It's obvious that we haven'L done a great deal withthe standards to date. I haven't seen too many coming in saying I want totake advantage of that. It's so attractive. I want to apply for a pUD soit just tells me that u,e haven't been right for a PUD or the standardsdon't encourage. I guess I'm tempted to go dot^rn to 9,OOO and have us takea look at that even though, when I say those things it means I,m reallyIooking for something in return and the 9,OOO is just noL to pack inaddiLj.onal ]ots. I think 9,OOO can be handled effectively but again, remember what Lundgren had when they were playing Hith when they put themon the 9,OOo square foot lots. They had a lot of trees. They had ahilIside. They had some variety already built it. you can't do that realeasily on a f lat piece of land. tJe wouldn't be happy r.lith that so Lundgrenhad some advantages. El]son: Plus, he had some.. -a certain ones but it wasn't across the board. percentage were the reaLLy smaII Emmings: It r^rasn't really very many. Ahrens: I Honder 9,OOO square foot if we lots?should talk about putting a certain percentage ofI don't know if that's even workable. Krauss: There's one item you might uJant to consider and it doesn't onlyapply here but it applies probably in regular subdivisions too. He have a15,Ooo square foot sLandard lot requirement. There,s nothihg that says houJbuildable that 15,OOO square feet has Lo be. f mean ure try to make ananalysis of fitting a normal house on a lot l.rhen h,e approve a subdivision EIIson: Risht. but there's nothing that says 9,OOO or 5,OOO has to be buildable or itcould be all wetland or whatever as far as the ordinance is concerned.They're covered by setbacks. You may want to at least establish, you knowif you're going to a 9,OOO square foot lot, that it has to be 8OZ useabl.eground or some standard Iike that Lo make sure that you're getting space. ReaI space and not fictional space that causes us problems. I guess too,the 9,OOo sticks in my mind because Ne saw an example of that being used.Right nor^r we have an average requirement that you've got to be at 13,5OO.I mean why 9o through this for a net density increase of 1,5OO square feeta lot? If ure get it doun Lo 10 or 9, !,e're giving a 3OZ reduction in Iotsize and that's a pretty hefty number and you ought to be abLe demand something in return for that. Conrad: So let's take that further. [.le're decreasing the lot requirement by a third and based on costs, based on development costs, how many dollars does that equate to out in Chanhassen? Is that a $5,OOO.OO benefit to the builder? Krauss: It's tough to guess. If you're just 9oin9 on a square footage per dollar or dollar per square footage requirement and a lot's $45,OOO.OO or 55O,OOO.OO, you know a 3O% reduction in ]ot area is pretty hefty, But asignificant percentage, if you've got a $5O,OOO.OO lot, maybe $15,OOO.OO ofit is utilities and streets. Nor^, that percentage reduction dgesn'L equatedirectly to that but still. If you have a $5O,OOO.OO Iot and you're being able to knock off $1O,OOO.OO of it or a fifth of lhe cost or a fourth ofthe cost, that's a pretty significant reduction. Conrad: So what would the Planning Commission Iike to see done with that money that the builder just saved? Brick exterior? Ellson: Yeah. And give more have gotten quality of Landscaping per Iot. Conrad: tle could that maybe in the firsL... Emmings: It's thethe two keys? buildins and the Iandscaping. Aren't those Conrad: Open space is something else, yeah. Ue'd want, Nhat t^,as the number we might have saved? $5,ooo.oo. Krauss: Pr obabl.y . conrad: tlhen you negotiate, is that how you think as a planner? Ah, wejust gave him !s5,oOO.OO worth of value. Should I try to get that? Again, I don't care if we're going dollar for dollar. That's really insignificant in my mind as long as, if we're searching for our goals and if our goals only cost a buck and the developer makes $4,999.Oo, that's okay with me but how do you negotiate PauI? tlhat is it that guides you? Krauss: t^lel] we usually, and speaking for myself and maybe Jo Ann has a comment on this too. I don't normally, I mean the developers wilI aluays PIanning Commission Heet i ngApri] 3, 7997 - Page 19 EIIson: Open space. Planning April 3, commission Meet i ng 7997 - Page 20 throur numbers at you. This is going to cost so much and you can't do iL because of that. Our reaction typically is, tle don't care. We're not here to make you a profit or to guarantee you that you're going to do this. I know that's why you're in business but we're here to insure that certain standards are met and you're going to do that. I think it's useful for your thinking though, hourever, in this kind of a forum to sav if this guv's going 9o save $5,ooO.OO to lElO,ooo.oo on a lot, then at a minimum he should be putting in $2,OOO.OO or IE3,OOO.OO Lo make sure we've got a Premium building exterior and another couple thousand dollars so that we have premium landscaping and maybe another thousand dollars so the common sPaces in the development are dressed up aIa Lundgren with entrance monumenting and boulevard landscaping and those sorts of things. You know the developer is still getting something back here. These are not dollars he's throwing into a pot that the City's going to go buy a fire truck with. These are dolLars lhat he's getting a premium development with that wiIl help him seII it. Emmings: Is anybody, going back raised . t^lhat i f we saw someone square foot? Ellson: Yeah, lhat's the big Emmi ngs: t^lou Id we even want the Joan's, I think the point that Joan in with a big development of aII 9,Ooo to come scare r ight there, to Iook at something Iike that? density sLandards? t,e're not giving in on lhe Conrad: t^lel I yeah , Krauss: You don't have to. Keep in mind our lor.r density standards lhough are zero Lo four and Lhe traditional densiLy we develop at, we found in the comp PLan is 1.7. I mean that's an acre so there's a lot of flexibility inthere to get more homes in wiLhout busting through our density cap, conrad: So the zoning density or the guide plan density would still apply? Erhart: density Emm i ngs : big chunk Krauss:put roads t,lou 1d Lhey meet sta ndards . So if you had a development likeof open space, that, you'd wind up t^rith some Conrad: That's what you're hoping to do. never get to wetlands and that. The reason being that you've got tothere's inef f iciencies. But in you and Erhart: I'm under the impression thaL that's not a. Krauss: You aLso get more homes. I mean bethJeen that 1.7 and 4 there'sclearly a lot of flexibility but you may weII trind up with a lot of open space too. That's the intent and we can write that into the intent. Erhart: In low density you say b,e can go to 4 units per acre uith a 1O,OOO square feet average? PIanni ng April 3, Commission Meet i ngt99t - Page 2! Erhart: So the net is, what do you think the number is? If it's not 4what's the net? streeti and that kind of sLuff?Krauss: If you did Erhart: HelI ulhat Krauss: Well yeah, nor ma I Iy see . we'd norma]Iy see is 1.7 Batzli: And engineer, I love it. A slide rule would have been better. Bu! see, they don't own the whole lot because the City's going to own aIL the streets and so if you're trying to figure out what their lot size is. Krauss: That's the gr oss square foot Iot. amount of space required to creale a 15,OOO grid we 'd wha t Er hart: 7 7 gross, so I guess the net was asking is, 15,OOOI what uas net? square foot Iot. That's what you windKrauss: up wilh. Erhart: I guess what I've always been thinking aII a).ong herewhile someone may come in with a big development and have some 9,OOO square feet, when on the average lhey've still got to be square feet. I guess Lhat's the way the old ordinance reads. is that Iots at 15,OOO El1son: Emm i ngs : Kr auss : EI lson : Emmi ngs : Erhart: conr ad r BatzIi: Erhart: Conrad: maybe I'm That's up f or debate in a PUD. [.Je're allowing - The average was 13,500 wasn't it? Yes . In the PUD " In the PUD. Could be. Minimum average. But let's back up one step for just for a minute. Including open spaces, we actually Iet the average fall. So right now the average development, subdivision in Chan. mixing what Lundgren said. What's the average density? HeI I 2 point someLhi n9? Krauss: 7.7. Outside of Lundgren. I mean we r6viewed about 12 or 15traditional plats that you've approved. Emmings: Those are subdivisions, not PUD's? Planning April 3, Commission Heet i ng !991 - Page 22 Krauss; Right. conr ad : 90 up tostill be Right. So there's !,7 and wha! ue're saying right now is 4 because that's the eilent of our regulations. Basically Iow density at 4 units per acre. I a.Iways thought it uras weir 3.7 can can Krauss: If r^re establish a minimum lot size of 9,OoO, you'Il never get 4units an acre because of park requirements, street requirements, because of inefficiencies. You never lay ouL a grid. It's not efficient. The closest you're probably going to get is 2-7-2.a. Something like that. Conrad: So uJe're urill allow a more maki.ng iL more dense. Basically what we're saying is we d PUD in exchange for brick exterior.e nse andEl Ison; open space maybe man made ponds. conrad: tJe didn't get the open space because, we clustered the open spacebut we're not getting more of it. El.lson: We're not guaranteeing. Idon't .l-ike it. t^le haven't given it mean lJe can ]ook at it and say, we uP yet, Emmings: The problem is, you don't know what it's going mean that's why I asked when we start out with. Lookingtell if you're going to look as nice as Nhat they showed Paul said no. Batzli: rf you ]ooked at different streels in that all Iook as nice as the one in the norLheast corner to Iook like. I a plan , can you on the slides. development , they don 'tthat he showed us. Batzli: But those particular lots are very sma]I and when you walk around them, I mean you don't have a yard in those lots. Krauss: If I could clarify my commenL earlier. If somebody bringsplat cold can I tell them I'm going to geL the quality. The ansb,erBut when I take them through the development process and we develop standards, or in this case PUD contract standards and conditions andoutline all this stuff, Nhen we're done I can teII you exactly whatgoing to get because we'II have it on a piece of paper. tomeais no. we 're Emmings: Okay. You just raised another point and something that struck meas, and this is totally unrelated and I knoul ure're over ou!- time but I'vegot to bring it up before I forget it. l^lhen I drove down TH 5 the othernight and I was looking at aII the buildings ouL in the industrial area outthere and wha! struck me is that there are a whole bunch of tall structuresbesides the buildings. Big tanks of things. I don't knotr r.,hat's in thembut you know what I'm talking about? And I would bet a million dol]ars,welI $9OO,OOO.OO, that when they showed us eLevations of those building and we approved those plans, there was not one of those tanks on there. Emmings: t^lell no and rhen you take the picture you stand in a place whereit looks nice from. Planning April 3, Commission Heet i n9 !997 - Page 23 Erhart: Uhich buildins are you-referring to? Emmings: I don'! know. There are several . There's tanks that go uptaller than the buildings and it seems to me we're getting hosed on this. tlhen they give us elevations, that elevation of the building, I naivelybelieved in the pas! that ure were seeing Hhat that was going to Iook Like and it's a joke. [.le've got to do something. I'd ]ike you to make a nole thaL something has to be changed so when Ne see an elevation, we seeeverylhing tha!'s going to be on that site. Now I don't Lhink theyprobably, I don't know tlhether they intended to deceive us or not and f have no comment on that but maybe it's just naivety on my part. Maybe when an architect thinks of an elevation, it's just the buildins. But ifthere's going to be bis tanks, you know because we talked to them about dhat they're going to put on top of the buildins and b,here it's going to be visible from but they don't show us those great big tall tanks. Krauss: tJell we attacked that issue probably about a year ago I think. Emmings: Oh. t^lhere was 1? Krauss r l.Jhat we started doi n9 is !.Jhen, I mean they would come i n f or heating and ventilation permits to put bright, shiny chrome ventilators on top of a building that you can see from 6 miles auray and we started intervening in the building permits saying that's exterior architectural el.ements and you're not going to be allowed to do that. If you are going to put something up there, you're going to have to do it flat. You'regoing to have to screen it. You're going to have to be compatible becauseyou're busting Lhe integrity of the site plan thaL was approved by t'he City. And we've managed to do that several times. Two additions to buildings thaL were afterthoughts because they didn't know about it at the time though is one that's on the Press building and then Instant t^lebb and that's pollution conLrol equipment that they uere required to install lastyear and I think I brought in some sluff to show you the screening that went on one building and then at Instant tJebb there's virLually nothing you can do over there. t^le have trees being planted around it. Emm i ngs : r emember But I see i ng know Rosemount has big tanks out there too and I don't those. Olsen: That was shown. Emmings: That one I wasn't sure about but there's another building down that way wiLh bis, taII green tanks and I never saw anything I on plans and I remember when that building was in here. further i ke that EIIson: I can't picture uJhat you're talking about. Tanks? Emminss: Wel I it's Iike. Emmings: Yeah. It's on Lhe other side of the railroad tracks. Right as you go down, well I don't knour. Ahrens: Are they in Chanhassen? PlanningApril 3, Commission Meeti ngl99t - Page 24 Krauss: Oh, you know where it is. It's the plastics company. Empak. Erhart: Those tanks were on the plan. Emmings: Do you remember that? Okay. Batzli: f don't think they were on the elevations. I think they were shown on the other. Emmings: They weren'! on the elevations. I don't remember them. Olsen: They're not on the elevation. They were on the site plan. It hasjust a litlIe circle there. Emmings: Yeah, you're looking down at a circle Lhere. tllel I you know ifthat circel's 50 feet taII, I Lhink we ought to know about it. Anyvlay,let's go back to 506'" You're going to rework that. Is there any otherdirecLion from the commission to PauI on that one? This is a critical one.I'm not sold on 9,OOO square foot ]ots. I don't think it's impossible. Ithink I'd want to limit it maybe to a percentage but I'm not sure, becauseI don't know what it would mean to have a big developmenL. Ellson: Yeah, I'm Ieaning toward that kind of thing too. I'd hate Lo seea big one come in. Krauss: Let us take a crack at it and bring it back to you. Batzli: My comment is potentially if there's not enough difference between 15,OO0 and 13,5OO, our only option isn't necessarily to loh,er the 13,5OObut it may be to raise the other end. Emmi ngs: tJhat? Say more. Batzli: f'm saying that maybe 15,OOo is too lor"r. Maybe you want Lo raisethat instead - Emmings: In the subdivision ordinance too? BaLzIi: Yeah, raise that one. If ure're not comfortable with dropping to 9,OOO but He want to encourage people to go PUD. Emmingsr Oh. So in the subdivision ordinance raise the minimum? Batzli: Yeah. Just a thought. Emmings: To encourage people to use the PUD. Conrad: If I've got 40 acres of land and each acre can have 3 houses on itand we use density transfer to free up 20 acres. l',love 50 houses over tothe other 20 acres. Basically is it still a low density development orhave I moved it into a high, because nou, I have 6 unit per acre, how isthis categor ized? P.Lanning April 3, Commission Meet i ng 1997 - Pase 25 Krauss: It's figured on that gross site and subtracting the wetland. Conradr If they look like apartments, is it still lowyou can't do it. I don't know urhat I'm designing but, density? And maybe Conradr See you're reading me the wrong way. I don,t mind Lhat. I justlove, if ue have a situation of opening up space, I don,! mind what they doas long as the neighborhood doesn'L. As long as it fits into theneighboring community, I don't care if they,re stacked 2,3 oy whatever.That particular situation does free open space and can protect a loL of thestuff so where I'm coming from on that one paul is I like it. I like to dothat. I want to encourage thaL. I think developers should have, if theycould build a house over here and lhey can cluster them, they can stackthem, they can make a higher density and as Iong as we feel comfortable.Boy, that lo me is a good PUD. ElIson: Like his first example whenyou could do that one. he kept showing all the different ways conrad: Right. And I was worried about some of our guideLines. Haybe itjusl kicks into a different zoning category or a different guide plan. Krauss: Well that transfer of density is fundamenla1 to the whole conceptof a PUO. And Lhe higher Lhe lot size, minimum lot size, the more you undermind Lhat abiIiLy, Lhat flexibility. And right nor^, bJe,re a! the point where Lhe development that's alloured under the residential pUD is going toIook exaclly the same as the development that's traditional . Maybe lhey,1Isqueeze in the odd lot here or Lhere that's a little different butbasically you won't telL the differences. There's just not. enough f Iexibility. Emmings: And how are you going to get that? How are you going to changethat to set thaL? Krauss: By Iowering the minimum lot size and putting specific requiremenlsfor quality of product. Emmings: Okay. ALright, we're an hour and 10 minutes. Hy plan is totallyout. Let's get through this. 2O-5O7 - I have a question on that one. Proposed 2O-5O7. In (b) it says after the certificate of occupancy has been issued and I was wondering why it t^rould be after the certificate of occupancy and not after the development plan is approved. Kr auss :I'm sorry 2O-5O7 on Steve. t^lhere are ure at? Emmi ngs :page 14. Your proposed (b). Krauss: could theoreticallv be. t hen you're talking just about a densityparameter, r mean if you have a 40 acre site you can either have 1 buirdingon each acre or you courd have a 1o story hish building and stirl have thesame density. But I think Annette pointed out a very good point. As arezoning option, you've got a Iot of latitude not to buy it and ue,re goingto have parameters in here that ]imit lhose kinds of abuses Planning April 3, Krauss; ohl tjhy is it worded that way? BatzIi: tlhc checks it? Emmings: No. I'm talking about let's say Krauss: oh, after the fact. I Lhought it fact you get back to the issue that we've administralively because it applies to any approval-. If someLhing deviates from thatsignificant way. Commission Meet i ng t99t - Page 26 l.l e do. So you three go out and check? ue've got the thing in place. u,as two phased. Bu! afLer lhe been trying to addressbuilding that has a site plan siLe plan in any kind of Emmings: t]hy is it afler the certificate of occuPancv? I don't know why iL wouldn't be afLer the PIan is aPProved you can't make changes - Krauss: That's a good poin!. I think it should be changed. Emmings: Does anyone else have anything else on that one? Then the Iast thing I've got is Lhis. t^lhen Terry and John Shardlow, t*hen they were here Iast week, they were talking about the fact that one of the big advantages is that you plan the whole ProPerLy and then as each ProPerty comes in, it has to meet those overall goals and restrictions. Hy question is, what if somebody doesn't? t^lhat enforcement tool do we have, (a) to make sure it's done in conformity with the PIan in Lhe firsL Place? And (b), to make sure it's not modified later? Outside of being in conformiLy with the PIan. Do we have an enforcement mechanism where we say eiLher you straighten it out ard do iL right or we're going to come in and do it and we're going to assess it to either that property or to the whole develoPment? Do we have any effeclive tooLs to do that? Krauss: As to the first part of the guestion, what do you do if something deviates from the plan? That's easy - Reiect it. Krauss: BatzIi: Krauss: t^JeI1 , no. I bui.l"ding permit, the evaluation. t's easier than that -somebody appl ies for aover to us and we make anbuilding permits are t^l he n cyc I ed Batzli: Okay, so in aluminum siding up. the plan it says redwood t^Jho would caLch it? tlho siding and they're putti ng would Ioo k? 0]sen: The building department would usually catch that. Emmi ngs: f nspecLors . Balzli: So it's up to the inspectors and you guys don't look at it? Krauss: No, we do. Sharmin really handles our permit revieu program Sharmin goes and digs out the development contracts where necessary. knows most of them by now and the conditions that urere specific to it. and She Planning April 3, Commission Meet i ng !991 - Page 26 Krauss: Oh ! Emmi ngs: Whyit urouldn't be Kr auss : deviates {nhy is it uorded that way? is it afLer the certificate of occupancy? I don,t know whyafter the plan is approved you can't make changes. Krauss: That's a good point. I Lhink iL should be changed. Emmings: Ooes anyone else have anything else on that one? Then the lastthing I've got is this. t^lhen Terry and John Shardlow, when they were herelast week, they were talking about the fact that one of the big advantagesis Lhat you plan the whole property and then as each property comes in, ithas to meet those overall goals and restrictions. My question is, what if somebody doesn't? tllhat enf orcemenl tool do we have, ( a ) to make sure it ,s done in conformity with the plan in the first place? And (b), to make sureit's noL modified later? Outside of being in conformity with the plan. Do ure have an enforcement mechanism hhere He say either you straighten it outand do it risht or we're goi.ng to come in and do it and we,re going toassess it to either that property or to the trhole development? Do we haveany effective lools to do that? As to the first part of the question, what dofrom Lhe plan? That's easy. Reject it. you do if somethi ng Emmings: No. I'm talking about Iet's say Krauss: Oh, afLer the fact. I thought itfact you get back to the issue that we'veadminislratively because it applies to anyapproval. If something deviates from thatsignificanL way. Kr auss : BatzIi: t,le do . So you three go out and check? Krauss: hlelI , no. It's easier than that. tlhenbuilding permit, Lhe building permits are cycled evaluation. we've got the thing in place. u,as Lwo phased. But after the been trying to addressbuilding that has a site plan site plan in any kind of somebody applies for aover to us and we make an Batzli: Okay, so in aluminum siding up. the plan i! says redwood t^lho would catch it? l^lho siding and they're putti ng would look? Emmings: Inspectors. Batzli: So it's up to the inspectors and you guys don't look at it? Krauss: No, we do. Sharmin really handles our permit review program Sharmin goes and digs out the development contracL6 r.Jhere necessary. knows most of them by now and the conditions that $,ere specific to it. and She BatzIi: t^lho checks it? O1sen: The building department brould usually catch that. Emmi ngs: So she looks in conformance but if Lhan lhey have on the inspector to catch it? Emmings: hle]l I don't know if Lhey're about Iandscaping, t"Jhen you're talking at the plan and then she can see whether the they go out and do something different on the pLan, then you expect the insPector, building if a lreeattention plan's site dies and caIIed Batzli: So the inspector knows the entire development? Krauss; tJe.II we approve a set of Plans. tle sign off on the set of Plans. The building inspecLor knows that and if a two slory building appears where a one story buildins was approved- O.Lsen: But they're lalking about Iike. Krauss: More minor things. minor. about, f guess I don 't when you're tal ki ng know. tJhatever . Krauss: I can't teII you it's a perfect process. I somebody doesn't replace it, we're not going to have to it but if a massive amount. mean our Emmings: I 'mare you going thaL if we do Bat-zlr:place to not askingto do when catch them, how you we you're going to catch that. catch them? Do we have the can do something about it? I'm askins what tools in place so Krauss: Yeah. Batzli: I'd rather knour how we catch them? ElIson: It's no different than any other subdivision or ordinance or any other landscaping thing. This is maybe it's goL to be enforced the same uray as the other ones. more strict and ue don't have a method in any other more strict but That's the poinL. It 'scatch it. Emmings: But it's easier caught by an inspector and caught by a complaint of a neighbor. otherwise it's if it's not, then it's not. Olsen: l.lell we do inspect, for commercial sites before we sign off on the CO. we do inspect those sites Emmings: Then what you do about it is r,Jhat? Krauss: If they deviate from, well one that did. The hotel across thestreet - They relocated their trash dumpsLer. I!'s supposed to be up against the building and aII of a sudden it's an 8 foot monsLer that's outin the parking lot made out of tacky siding. olsen: There was actually nothing ue could do. Let's not get into this. Planning Commission Meet i ng April 3, 199). - Page 27 Emmings: Okay. Kraussr Yeah, unfortunately there Nas nothing we could do about putting itback to where it should be but iahat we made them do is, we said if you'regoing to keep it on lhe parking lot, you're going to desisn it to ourstandards or we're going to take you back in front of the Planning Commission and Counci I . Krauss: tJell this is rea]Iy, i! gels fairly complex bu! the CiLy wasinvolved in installing utilities in there because it's a tax incrementproject. It was the coordination, or lack of coordination between thedeveloper building the building, the City putting in the utiliLies and thesite plan being approved that some watermains got put right where the dumpster was supposed to be or the shut off valve so they just arbitrarily moved il without telling anybody. So that was the developer's problem. I mean lhey just went and unilaterally did it. [,le caught it and sent them some letters and said if iL's going to have to stay. FirsL we asked themto move it back. They said they couldn't. t^le said alright, Iet's work out something.and working it out was to cut it down to a 5 foot height, side itin siding that's the same siding the hotel's made out of and landscape around it- 5o we did catch something as minor as a dumpster. The solution wasn'L identical to the approved plan but it was acceptable. Emmings: Let me ask you another exampLe. Let's say that we do a lot of, or that we're very concerned about landscaping on a site. Let's say likethe Valvoline site bu! let's say it's a PUD and Ne've got sLandards inthere for ]andscaping the enLire PUD. Let's say that they do it right inthe first place and that weather condiLions caused a whole bunch of trees, or something Iike that and they die. Can we go back and tell them, now this year it isn't, it doesn't look like it's supposed to. Can we go back in? It's 5 or 10 years after the whole thing's developed. Can we go backin and say this isn'L looking like Nhat Nas in the PUD and we want you tobring it back up to Lhe standard? Krauss: Yeah. And iL's always been, it's frankly something, I'II sound Roger Knutson out on it because I r^tant his confirmation on this but I've always gone after people, no matter how long. As long as they have an approved site plan and it's of record, I've aluays treated it that they have a permanenL obligation to mainLain the property at least in that condition as a minimum and if they don't, we go after them. Occasionallyyou find things coming back Iike Nhen a building transfers and the morLgage company hJants you to sign off on something that says everyLhing is hunky dory and the City's approved the buitding. You ito ou! and inspect i! andfind some trees have died, I'm not going to sign off on this thing untilyou've reinstalled this stuff. There's ]ots of ways ure catch these things. Planning Commission Meeti ngApril 3, 199t - Page 28 Ahrens: Why wasn't there anything you could do about it? Olsen: But if they had refused Lo do Lhat, we didn't have a letter ofcredit to cover. The CO had already been signed so it was one of thosethat ure didn't have. Krauss: It was an older project. l^le've done things differently since then " Planning April 3, Commission Meet i ns 7991 - Page 29 0lsen: The site plan too. Krauss: Okay, Jo Ann's quoting 2O-72O. Maintenance of Site. It shaLl be the obligation of the owner Lo mainLain the site in the manner consistent r^rith the approved site plans and building plans. UnaPProved alterations are in violation of this divisi.on so it's a violation, direct violation of the code. Emmings: And every developed lot or siLe in the PUD wiII have a site plan that's separately approved? Krauss: It will now, yes, Emmings: From noN on? Okay. I don't have anything else. Does anyone have anything else on Lhis one? conrad: Brian menLioned intent. He wanled to get back Lo that. BaLzIi: I don't know. conrad: I have a problem uith the intent section. Batzli: I don't like the intent section but I don't know whaL I don't Iike. Conrad; I have a reaL problem withcan't fix it. It's sort of Like we myself and I sat here and Ithings but it's not. the ura nt i ntent nice LllSOn:giving know when they come through. It's basically Conrad: It's a real general type of intent and as a developer, you could say they're Iooking for a betLer quality house, And you knour, I guess I'mno! sure, we have building codes and I'm not sure that Lhat's the priority that I have and I'm jusL picking that ouL as one thing- t"lhy do f grant a PUD? It's for a1l of these reasons but for some reason I'm noL comfortablewith hor^r they're worded. I want to encourage certain things. Betterquality and I'm willing to give up some things but I haven'L been able togeL my arms around how we do that to make it real clear what we're lookingat. Kr auss : beef up I think ure can be more emphatic about the trade-off. ThaL b,e canthe Ianguage. But r^re'I l 1et you us that latitude. Emmings: t^le] I but you know, that's jus! do. Lle shouldn't say what are we going approach it that uray even though. what Shardlow saidto geL out of this.we shouldn't t^le shouldn't EIIson: I say Ieave it open so it is flexible. Emmings: Haybe we do want to say that but you know, what he's saying isyou've got a subdivision ordinance. If the developer uanLs to do somethingolher than the subdivision ordinance, then he ought Lo come into the City PlanningApril 3, Commission Meet i ng f997 - Pase 30 and he ought to say I've got a different kind of idea and enler intonegotiations with the City to do something that's other than b,hat thesubdivision ordinance already al I or,ts . Batzli: But see I'd raLher have an intent statement that says that. Emmings: tje]l maybe wha! Ne're saying is, is just Lhat. As analternative, and here are some of the things that r,re in the City of Chanhassen value. t^ie value open space. tJe val.ue high cualityconstruction. We value Iandscaping of a certain kind of whatever andit go aL that. I don't know. conrad: tjeII that's getting closer to whaL I'm comfortable u,ith. Iet Kr auss l flipped i nte nt . tJe'I] be happy to take a shot at that. through his model ordinance though just I just feel kind ofto see whaL they had I for Emminss: It's jusL Iike this. Krauss: But it's briefer. Emmings: Yeah. No, I compared Lhe two and I r.ras surprised at that becauseulelL. I uras surprised. Ellson: So uJe're basically saying, don'! bother unless you can juslify on one of these grounds, at Ieast one? Emmings: Except that's an aggressive statement and I don't think we wantto do that. Ellson: WelI not i.n so many words, you're right. Conrad: But you also want to telI the developer something. In other words, to leave i! fosgy doesn't help anybody because then it gels in here and you're going to be sayins that's not a PUD and that's fair either.Staff has to know whaL we're talking about. Emmings: It's easy to say, why the heII didn't you tell me? conrad: Absolutely and we'11 be down, we'11 havewe'II say, uell we're not getting anything out of a couple of meetings andthis. Ahrens: I don't think the intent stalement though wiII ever enough to really address all those. I mean uJe're jusL going vague in a different kind of way. be to specific make it Emmings; It could be more focused I Lhink. This is whaL tre would hope to have in any subdivision. These things. Even a straight subdivision you'd hope to have these things- Ahrens: Right. I know.of Chanhassen thaL we have I know nice that but if architecture uJe just say we have a vision and good. PlanningApril 3, Commission Meet i ng 7991 - Pase 31 Emmings: I don't think you'd hJant to say nice what archiLecture. you lJer e sayi ng . saying somet h i ngto a developer. Ahrens: WeII I mean, f was paraphrasing Emmings: tjeII quality construction isI think. I think Lhat means something Ahrens: But I think most developers substandard quality construction. would come in and say I'm putting in a Iittle different I don't know. Emmings: You're right- Unless somebody else haslet them take another crack at it. PauI te]Is me agendas are going to get busier on real projects. calls on people Nanting !o develop. something burning, by the way that our He 's getting a Iot Iet's of Erhart: A lot of these things are in the extended MUSA line... Erhart: You're going to handle those anyway? Krauss: Yeah " Ue might as r"lell because had we not proposed to move Lhe MUSA line, they would have come in with a request to concurrenLly move the MUSA Iine and do their subdivision anyulay. [,le've already got that process underway. Krauss: No, people are underslanding that it's starting Lo make requests in thecontingent upon the MeLropol itan the noL that large. neh, MUSA line Council approval. Erhart: t^ie could end up with a lot Krauss: t^lelI, hopefully the window Erhart: Are you feeling good aboutyou heard anythi ng? Krauss: Yeah. I do have some ner4, of Lhese things contingent upon Lhat. MUSA Iine expansion today? Have information on it- Do you want that now? Emmings: No. You've only got 5 minutes left out of the landscape. Ahrens: Yeah, IeL's go. Emmi ngs: t^Je 'I I get to that . Krauss: I've got some updaLe items. LANDSCAPI NG SSUES PAPER. Emmings: Okay, let's shift gears inLo the ]andscape ordinance then. fguess this one is not even, it doesn't seem to me anyu,ay. t^lait a minute.Is this the one where you asked us some specific queslions or was tha! thebluff one? Or there's the bluff one. Okay. t^lhat can we do on this one toge! it going? ft's a litt]e hard to know. I guess one of the major thingsyou t,Janted us to look at r.Jas the goal section huh? P.Ianning April 3, Commission Meet i n9l99t - Page 32 Krauss: Yeah. This is more of an issue paper. Before trying to draftordinance I think we need to know what we're trying to achieve. And forthat to happen, I tried to pull together all the various sections in theordinances that we have that peitain to landscaping and there's a lot ofbits and pieces here and lhere and you reallv need Lo ]ook at it in anintegrated way. Emmings: Is the thought here that there will be one and aLl the other sections will reference it? Iandscape or di na nce an Krauss:that you Lhat. T hat have would ideal, The structure of the ordinanceto have a separate one. Subdivision code if is probably suchyou go with Emmings: t^Jhy? Kraussr It's in a whole different section of the ordinance. It's not inthe zoning ordi nance - Emmings: tJe]L you could do it by reference. Should Lhat be the goal? fsthat something that would be desireable? Krauss: t^Jel1 I think it is. You want a legible understandable ordinance- NoL something Lhat the Lhree of us understand because ure uork with thisthings for years and we've finally figured it ou! but nobody elseunderstands it because it's in all different sections and it'scontradictory or whalever. Ideally iL will be in one spot andunderstandable. One of the comments I have is that the standards that ue develop have to be understandable by reasonabl^y intelligent people who arenot necessarily professionals. I made Lhe point about percent opacity. Idon't know what it is. Emmings: tJel] and there's another, I know f 've been a! a couple of City Council meetings where they've said, and ue've talked about it here Loo- The fact that ure've got now in the subdivision ordinance one tr-ee per loLrequirement. I know that Dick l,Jing on the City Council, in fact he called me last night and again just said, he wants and thinks he has support for on the City Council an ordinance that would caII for 3 trees per lot. That sounds good to me but we have olher things in here that say, or on some applications it's l tree per 40 feet and I think he thought that was kind of silIy. Those are some of the things that I know have been molivating the City Council. is just the part that applies to subdivisions and just generally wanting heavier Iandscaping. Krauss: You knob, I think the review of the Jiffy Lube or whatever. Rapidoit. Krauss: Valvoline, Focused in on what kind of standards we have. For example, the landscaping standards we have for Iarge parking Iots in termsof percent that have !o be landscaped and aII of that are quite good. I mean thaL's a good section of the ordinance but Lhen when we ge! to the Emmings: VaIvoI ine . PlanningApril 3, Commission Meet i ng 1997 - Page 33 But maybe the goaL isn't to screen the parking lot but to break up perimeter of the parking IoL and !^le ge!, well you have !o have l tree every 40 feet. tlell what does that do? And He basically have to find ways to misinterpre! or reinlerpret the-ordinance to get r^rha! we want because if we're he.ld strictly !o the minimum requiremenLs as true minimums, it doesn't work. I think more of what you wanted to do was establish goals in the ordinance saying that you wanl to establish Iandscaping inside theparking loL. You want to estabLish buffer screenings around the more obnoxious sections. You Hant to establish perimeLer landscaPing and I like the idea of saying the minimum you'1I spend is lied Lo the buiLding costs but you're going Lo achieve these goals and if it's going to cost more than thaL, LhaL's fine because those were only minimum numbers. One lree per 40 or other ratios in my mind don't get at the real issue and that's the goal. Batzli: the. Krauss; BatzLi: break up Krauss: El Ison : Risht. So maybe t hatthe monotony I'm not 4C feet meets the goal . One tree per 40 feet could easilyof looking at a parking lot. sure that i! does. i nbet ween? Batzli: tlell they t^ron't be 2 1,22 inches. I mean granted whenplant them but eventually they're going to grow. The question you require and when they do get big, what's it going Lo Look Krauss: You have a 2 7/2 inch uide tree every 40 feet. conradi Not in your lifetime it won't be screened. you Iike? first Nhat can Batzli: No, but that's my point, If the intent isn't to screen whenyou're to plant a lree that's going Lo get to be 40 feeL ta]I in 25 years. Krauss: That's where you've got to focus your goals. Brian, if you're Iooking at the perimeter of a parking ]ot, the Harket Square parking lot. . The intent of that is not to screen it so that nobody knows there's anycars in there and there's no life in there, It's a retail cenler. It's supposed to be a busseling hub type of activity. If it's not, it's notlookins right. But on the other hand, it's a tremendous expanse ofasphalt,. one of the most hideous examples I know of is on TH 12 inSt. Louis Park behind Fuddruckers or whatever it is where they just kindof, there's an office buildins with just a big slab and from the highwayaII the way to that thins it's just black. The only thing that breaks itup is trhite lines. You really want to avoid that kind of, you actually have micro climates you develop in these places. The winds urhip around inthere and you get dust devils and it's hotter in the summer and colder inthe wjnter. You want to avoid that. So on the perimeter of those parking Iots you want asethetic plantings. You're not Iooking to obscure Lhestuff's that in there but you're ]ooking to break up the monotony and setapart that this is a public street, Here's a boulevard and here's a Planning April 3, Commission Heet i ng 1991 - Page 34 Erhart: So are you able to write that ordinance? Emmings: I hope so. Erhart: To screen commercial and. , . in a better hray than !.,e've got nor,J? Krauss: 0h yeah. That's not hard. Erhart: Yeah because I think the 40 feet, while yeah maybe 50 years from now it might be good. Ihe other approach to that is make it 2O feet or they come up with an alternative. Emmings: t^lhy do you want to talk about trees? t^lhy don'L we talk about thetall shrubs and everything else? Erhartr I think that's been said? Emmings: HelI it isn'L though. Right now al] we've got are trees. Ahrens: ...minimum standards? Is that what we're trying to talk about? Emmi ngs: Yeah. Ahrens: t^lel I , how do you even set those? Emmings: I guess PauI wants to say do it with cash and then see how farthe cash carries you and see if that does the job. And if it doesn't, you require more. Krauss: Hore because you're required to meet the goals. By the way, againI didn't develop Lhat cash ratio but it's one I've worked with for probably about 12 years. Emmings: Does it wor k? Krauss: Yeah, it works very weII. I've only had one building that uras proposed in Opus, but not by Opus on property that had been sold. The standards appeared not to t,ork. It was a 10 story office building they'reproposing. The Iandscaping was hideous and they claimed that it exceededour minimum expenditures and I couldn't make them spend anymore because that ordinance didn't have goals in there to compare it to- t",eII to make a Iong story short, I found out the deve.Ioper was lying about the building cost and when you actually put in the true cost of the building and got that ratio up to uhere it should be, it uorked. private parking lot and Nant to obtain that. You do that typically lhroughrolling berms. Through lower scale plantings. Through scattering of overstory trees. Then if you've got something you rea.Lly want to screen, likea tower or garage doors or something else, Lhat's r,rhen you do the heavyconifers or you require that they bring a wing wall out and other things" So that's why I'm trying Lo get you to focus in on, what do you b,ant toget . PIanningApril 3, Commission Meet i ng l99l - Page 35 Erhart: tlhat would happen if the 1ot was complelely wooded? AII you've got to do is preserve. Erhart: In this dollar approach it counLs? Emmings: Uell I don't know but there's a provision in here that says that. Erhart: In the do]Iar approach? Emmings: UelI how do you figure Lhat ouL then? Yeah. Krauss: I don't know. There's not a direct trade off.placed on a 30 inch oak over a 4 inch birch or anythingcould clarify that because I knora it's in here but it'sthere either. There's no valueIike thaL. Ue not directly in Erhart: One of the things, if you're buying a wooded ]ot, this applies to industrial/commercial . He's paying for the wood already and it seems kindof redundanl to have to put in another $5O,OOO.OO r.,orth of landscaping because it's wooded. EIlson: IL would ]ook nice though u.rouldn't it? Krauss: But even on a wooded lot, I mean what's the machine shop? Behind Lhe Press. That's on a very nicely wooded lot and they did a halfwaydecent job of preservi.ng a lot of the trees, except the front end of thatis very intensively Landscaped around their parking lot. Farmakes: Ver-Sa-TiI? Krauss: Ver-Sa-Til. And I could take a look and see if it conforms butI'II bet you that that's pretty, r^,hat they put in front Has pretty consistent. If we have some flexibility to make a value judgment, say wellyou saved 3O oak trees out back and that's horth something so therefore, aslong as you've achieved the goals up front, we'1I let the minimum dollarsyour spend slide. That's Lhe flexibility you have too. Emmi ngs: Right . Youadequate. Then theythe construction. sayjus t Erhart: Back to the Dick tting thing here. Are u,e discussing that rightnow? The idea of having. Emmi ngs: Anything you wan!? can may t.his is r^,hat you have to do unless, that it's have to focus on the areas that disturbed by His proposal deve I opme nt Erhart: tte're just open here? Great. t^lhat about football.is that what? t^Je require thaL the builder in at Lhe time ofput 3 trees on every lot instead of 1? Emmings: No, it says thaL in here. ThaL counts. t^,hat exists on the siLe counts toward the requirements. PIanning April 3, Commission Meet i n9t99l - Page 35 He's talking there specifically I think about the subdivisionthat now requires 1 tree. Di.ck's tal.ked to me about it quite a bit, I don,t h,ant to speakbut I think I know where he's coming from. Right nou,t aII wefor landscaping is that you seed or sod any disturbed area.you've graded on the property needs Lo be seeded or sodded. BatzIi: Since when? Erhart: so he thinks tha! we should puL i.n 3 not knowing urhere the guy'sgoing to put his drivewav and realIv what the general. Iandscaping isi ooue know where lhose 3, are those 3 going to be right at the curb? EIIson: Oh, we're not designating uhere I don'L think. Emmi ngs : ordinance Krauss: for him require Anythins Ahrens: Krauss:for the Ahrens: Batzli: Ellson: That's not t^,le I I ,Yes . Iast 2 true, it's been true for 10 years but it's only been enforced It hasn't been enforced for 2 years. may , continue.Be that as it Start call.ing. Krauss: Yes. TelI Sharmin about it. t^le,ve been takins escro!,,...butanvu,av. so iL requires that prus it requires the installaLion of one treein the front yard area if Lhere's not already trees present. So if youbuild in a wooded lot and you have a tree in your front yard, there,s norequirement. Now what Dick was asking for, he came through a couple ofversions of this uas that you have maybe two trees in the front and one inthe back and a couple wourd be hardr.roods at the very ]east because we'velost so much of the hardwood forest. Dick actually started out wantingmore than that and r said werl, tie this into cost a Little bit too becauseue're assuming for our escrowing of funds, that each tree has a value of $25O.OO so 3 trees, you're adding a cost of !D75O.OO to the lot. Emmings: t^lelI, but now a developer is buying large quantities of Lreesisn't going to pay that kind of money for them is he? Krauss: Nerr often times what happens with the rarger developers is theygive, they cut deals with the nursery and they give them certificates tobuy this stuff over there. So yes, there's other ways of doing it. Isupport Dick's suggestion buL I guess in my opinion it doesn't 9o far enough. Emmi ngs: That won't make him unhappy. tJeII I'm not sure that you Hant a regimented l tree here,2Krauss: Yeah .trees there. Planni ngApril 3, Commission Meet i ng 7991 - Page 37 Farmakes: tlhy can't you take an amoun! or Percentage? I mean when we built our house they also, I mean you've got that in here but the builder does that. They sit down and they say, they take a Percentage of Lhe home that's being built and that's always ate into it at the end. tlhen vou get a]l the overhead costs and then you start choPPing into that landscaping budget at the end. That's r.rhy a lot of People have dirt out in the back of the house. Krauss: WeII the reason for the seed or sod is not onlv aesthetic, it's erosion control . There's a valid reason for that beyond the aesthetic issue. I guess my ou,n personal belief is that yeah, a lot of PeoPle have landscaping budgets built into the thing so you've got $5,OOO.OO to sPend or whatever it is with your home. A lot of builders don't do that. I'd rather no! see the city in a position of aPProving a mulberry bush over here and hackberry bush over there and that kind of thing. I mean we clearly have an interest in over sLory type trees because that's the view you get as you're going doun the neighborhood. Is this a cornfield thaL has some houses plopped into it or is this a boulevard? The thing when you go with just limiting yourself to the three trees or however many trees you settle on, what that doesn't address is what is the overall plat look Iike. And what we don't have in our subdivision code now is an overa.II Iandscaping plan requirement. Not, Jo Ann required Klingelhuti to Put in a landscape berm along the highway and in a couple of other Places with Lake Riley Hills. Strictly speaking we exceeded, if you strictly interpret the ordinance, we exceeded the bounds of what the ordinance says. But we wan! to have that legitimized and we'd like Lo be able to do lhat more. Then if you have lhat overall landscaping scheme where you can have boulevardplantings. You have the more obnoxious things screened off, then if you're requiring additionaL ! or 2 trees per lot in an appropriate place and then you've got a pretty nice package. Then the icing on the cake Jeff is what you would do with your landscaper. Haybe the first year, maybe the thirdyear when you can afford it. Batzli: No. No. Batzli: No. tlalk through my neighborhood and you get some people Hho either transitory or single for one reason or another and Lheir home is stark as the day they bought it 6 years ago. are AS Ahrens: I think 3 Lrees is a good idea. I mean it's a sood idea. are very few lots, veyy few houses that are built on }ots that don't trees. I mean maybe in lhe very expensive areas uhere the IoLs are compleLely r^rooded but that's not the majority of lots in Chanhassen. There need 3 I El Ison: ExactIy. Emmings: But any homeowner, I think it's real important to get those trees in there by the developer because any homeowner is going to take care of his yard and he's going to take care of foundation plantings and shrubs and things Iike that. Emm i ngs: No? Planning April 3, Commissi.on MeeLi ng 1997 - Page 38 don't thinkthat.3 is unreasonable at al]. fn fac! most need a lot more than Farmakes: My point, rather than taki.ng a number t^ras if you took apercentage of what they uere spending on the house. t^Jhether it's commercialdeveropment or residenLial and they brought in a plan as to how they couidbest utilize that money in that particular lot. Let,s say the lot couldonry reallv accommodate 2 trees? Then they could put it into other areasof shrubberies or hedge or whatever. Krauss: That's essentially what we do for everything except singlefamily. There's a philosophical question I think you might want to thinkabou! and I've got some personal beliefs but that,s irrelevant here.Single family home, I mean the home is your castle type of thing. The Cityhas some certain vested rights. r think Ne have a right to have acceptablelooking boulevards. Attractive Iooking boulevards. I think we have aright to not destroying whatever naturaL forest we have left and makingsure that things are put back, But I really tend to trend very lightly inLerms of going beyond what, an individual homeowner can do on theirproperty. If you asked us to do Iandscaping plans like that per house, I mean we can certainly administer t-hat. tlle do i! for everything else rightnobr. It's a lot of work because we have more single family developmentthan anything else. I'd personally be relunctanl to do it. Emmings: I don't think we should. I don't thinkregulating foundation planni ng. we should get i nLo Batzli: I don't think so either. Emmings: For example, when we talk about Lrees, Ahrens: I don't foundation plantings either1. I don't know where 1 came up. I think we should. trees. tle already requ irebut Emmings: And Jeff I Lhink too, if you've got a smaller lot where 2 trees,or where it's a requiremenL to have 3 trees and 2 h,ere going to fit, youdon't have to think of it alL in terms of maples and oaks. You can think ofit in Lerms of maybe they plant 2 crab apples or a hah,thorne or somethingthat's. . . Erhart: Let me offer another idea here. I'm adamantly opposed to gelting into putting trees, being involved in putting trees on people's lots-Another approach to this, I know what Dick's trying to get to and I think we aII urant to get to, and I think PauI's saying it without really getting himself clear. t,hat you really want is boul.evard trees. And instead oflooking at it as per lot, Iet's go back to Nhat He've got and let's vieur itas, let's require the developer to put in boulevard trees every x amoun! offeet and they have to be this kind of a tree. And the tree has to bewithin so many feet of the curb because I'lI tell you, anything beyondabout 4 feet is, to me that's the homeowner's property and ure don't screu,rwith that - PIanni ngApril 3, Commission Heet i ng 7991- - Page 39 Batzli: t^lelI that's the interesting thingnot in the boulevard right-of-way. I mean it's clearly in the homeowner's ]ot. Erhart: IL is but rea1ly, I mean there is a certain almost pseudo public, the first few feet and I don't is. Take an approach to require the developer to put many feet apar! and so far. is they put Lhe boulevard trees they require boulevard trees but area k now in there that is what that number boulevard trees so BatzIi: Bas.ically within the right-of-way. ErharL: Yeah, I guess iL could be within the right-of-way. Then you aren't messing around with those loLs and see Lherefore you avoid theproblem with some guy's ]ot is 150 feet wide and the next guy is 3O feel wide and where do you put the trees? You avoid aII that and you just puL in boulevard trees. I think it accomplishes what we want withouL gett.ing into this individual - Batzli: They'd better be salt hardy. Erhart: But isn'L that what Emminss; But it sounds like Emmings: tJeII I don't know. you're going to you want? I don't knoH. Lucy Road where t,lhere would you an easement there forI imagine anytime, see a tree. Ahrens: .Tim, I live on Lake along the si.de of the road.there's a trail easement. Ahrens: Because there'scould come and dig it up Krauss: The first 10 feettaken. That what you want There's a problem. I think your point is wellis boulevard trees - there'sput Lhe a 2O foot Lrees? I easeme nt mean if Erhart: l,lhy wouldn't you put the tree between lhe trail and utilities- I the str eet? mean they EIIson: Not necessariLy. Krauss: t,lel] part of what you u,ant to achieve is streets that ultimately have tree Iined streets. I think the idea of having a tr6e in the back yard isn't a bad one if Lhere isn'L any back there buL there's a problem puttingthe tree in Lhe boulevard itself. I know you caII it a boulevard planting but our mainlenance foLks, first of all they plow snow up and theyoccasionally go up on the curb. The cable TV company comes in and putstheir stuff in. The first 10 feet back from the right*of-way is oft.en usedfor utility work plus you do have saIL intolerate trees and that kind ofstuff. But I don't know, do you rea]Iy hrant it regimented up and down? Ellson: No. I think that's what we want to get auay from. Planning April 3, Commission Meet i ng 1991 - Page 40 Krauss: The way we've done itit's in the front yard and they whatever way it fits for them. norJ, can granted it'sintegrate it tree but we Iandscapi ng saidplan in only 1 into a ElLson: I prefer variety of trees also. I don'L thinkthat that should be a sugar maple or whaLever. we should regulate Emmi ngs: t^lhat if someone want it complete.Ly out in wants a swimming pool or tennis court and theythe sun? suPpose . Krauss: That would be in their back yard anyway. Batzli: But once they move in, they could cut it down I Emmings: That's another issue jusL Iike we were talking we're going to require them up front, do they have to be Farmakes: The trees that are on CR 17, those that were by New Horizon over there. Krauss: The ones that are dead? Farmakes: Yes. The intent of those boulevard treesbit. I believe if people put the stuff on their own have a better chance of reaching maturity. about before. Ifthere later on? planted over ther e I guess worry me aproperty , that they Olsen; That was on privaLe property. That's not a boulevard tree. Krauss: But they don't perceive it that uray. Far ma kes: It up in a rou. sure looks like the intent, I mean the way they're all lined Krauss: Typical]y, if you get a tree in your maintain it. I mean somebody might decide to but most people would take care of it. front yard, you're going to chop it doun or Iet it die tr ees , ob ject E]lson: I don't feeL that I need boulevard trees so I don't agree with that it has Lo be a boulevard tree. Erhart: Those things aren't boulevardreferring to a boulevard Lree that theyears, shade the stree!. Emmings: That's the kind of street the boulevard and the trees and lhe down. that's a screen. I'm is to shade, ultimately in 40 I grew up on. street. There There'd be the sider^ral k, were elms aII up and Ahrens: I bou Ievards thinkk LhaL ]ooks real nice but I'm just wondering where the are. Erhart: [^]e have to define that but I guess. Planni ng April 3, Commission Meet i ng 799t - Page 41 Ahrens: There are easements that are constanlly being Lorn up by the City. At least out where I live they are. Emmings; Somehoh,, I think everybody agrees !^Je want more trees or we'd to see more trees. You may not ulant to see more trees on every single but genera).ly want more trees and I don't know how you're going to. Emmi ngs: t^,lhy don'! r^re I i ke Iot conrad: I like a couple of things that have been said and they aII make sense. I think ue need a minmum for lots in new subdivisions and whelher that's 1,2 oy 3, we've got to figure thaC out. I think we need an overall landscaping plan for, and that's r^lhat Paul and Jo Ann have said. So for a subdivision that makes sense. And I really agree, I'm on everybody's side here. I reaLly agree with what Tim said. I care about boulevards and entryurays to Chanhassen. I care about the major arteries. I guess f really don't care what somebody does to their own property. That's their business. I do believe that there should be minimums. otherwise we could,I think ue have to reforest what was taken down. tjas farmed. So I think there are minimums. I don't care if it's 1, 2 or 3. t^le'II f igure thaL out but I do like things ]ike some standards. Like ahen ue have the neur highuray, 212 coming through. Do r,Je care about the entryt{ay? Do we care about, are we an enlryway to the Arboretum? Do hre care? Do we care how TH 5 is landscaped aII the way down from Chanhassen to the Arboretum? Could be pretty if we real,ly planned it. On the other hand, maybe iL's Loo comprehensive. Too comp].ex. Maybe ure can't do that. You know, i do care about an entry way to a new development. I do care about the boulevards inthat once you get off into some of the feeder streels, I don't care anymore. Ail of a sudden you're back into individual properties. So I think I've taken a liLtle bit of everybody's approach in residential. areasbut for Chanhassen I think. Do we care how TH 5 is landscaped? It slinksright now. Just absolutely stinks and we're talking abouL, you know we've had some opportunity to work on one property but do we care? Do we care about sugar maples? Annette said no. Sugar maples is not a big deal in Chanhassen . Do we care about greenery? I n the wi ntertime . Do r,,,e careabout, i.s that just something Lhat, do we on.Iy care about greenery in the,you know we've got 8 months of bad weather here where trees don't real.Iygroh,. Do we really care what it looks like those other 8 months? I think Ne, you know I'm talking some very philosophical things and maybe we can'ttake care of TH 5 and maybe we don't care how the Arboretum really fits in and if we should reinforce it as a major theme. But on the other hand, maybe there is an opportunity to look at some of those. Emmings: I think iL's a great idea and I never thoughL of it. Because when we do the corridor study on TH 5, why don't we develop a landscapeplan and each property as it comes in is going to have to conform to that. Conrad: See that ma kes sense to me. do that? Conrad: I don'L know. Erhart: NeIl we are doing a landscape as part of the TH 5 Ahrens: Emmings: doing it? Krauss: tJe're doing it- It's downtou:n Chanhassen, there are monuments at each i nterchange, some special Iighting. an HRA project. As TH 5 comes throughpaving treatments, there are IandscapedI think there's even possibly going to be Isn't the SLate contributing? Yeah, but are they doing it the way we want to do it? t^Jho's Ahrens: He means all the way down, Emmings: Yeah. What I see Ladd talking about is really a lot more global than that. And maybe it's clumps of evergreens h,ith here and there withapple trees going doun that bloom in the spring or something like that. EI.lson: I think that Lake Drive...on the Klingelhutz development there.It's just greak with aII that pine and stuff like that. That sort ofthi ns . Emmings: You know what? I wonder if Ne Arboretum with expertise to landscape.our i nter dst? couldn't, there are people at t^lhy wouldn't they do that for the us in Conrad: tJell Peter olin, if you'Il recall, came in here and suggested that we. Erhartr I'lI go beyond !hat. Dave Headla and Barb Dacy and I had lunch with Peter OIin one time...at the direction of the,Planning Commission... Very nice lunch and he made it quite clear to us that Mr. O.Lin was available on a consulLing basis and the City of Chanhassen... Emm i ngs : things, Yeah. He told us u,e were slupid but he didn't tell us.how to do that NasErhart: EMM I NqS : Ahrens: lot of Emm i ngs : that have ...but Okay. t^le just What bee n [^l e can the way it ended up- do it ourselves. He's not that imporLant, 90 out to the Arboretum and look around. There'strees out Batzli: Just 90 out there with a shovel . conrad: That's real tacky. You knour Peter was in here complaining about how we're doing the comprehensive plan because we didn't care about the Arboretum. How we're going to divide 41 and some properties that abutted to him and didn't want to sell and wanted to turn it into green space for him and m real surprised that we couldn't get some interest. have to there. can h,e do to get Paul. goi ng said here tonight? to take inLo account the things Planning Commission l.leetingApril 3, 7991 - Page 42 Planni ngApril 3, Commission Mee! i ng t99l - Page 43 Krauss: I don't know. tlhen I laid out the goals did I say anything that people don't agree with?that should have been incorporated? 1 thru 7, page Did I over loo k 1 and 2, somethi n9 conrad: t^Jell you've got the words there. I think under poinL 5, to be investigated. Absolutely and that probabLy interests me a great deal . When you use the word boulevard, I'm really looking at TH 1O1 . I'm Iooking at TH 5. I'm looking at major entrances and exits. Major places uhere we can have a very definite impact on, visual impact on our obln residents and on people that are driving through. I think that's really critical . Ithink we can do something more significant than !he archiLectural standardsthat we've been talking about. This is a really positive thing in terms ofgreenery and what we can do both for winter and summer. That number 5 is broader for me and I Iike that one. I think that's really significant. Emmings: An example of what you're maybe talking about is TH 41 between TH 7 and TH 5. It has a very, especially on Lhe TH 5 side, has a verydistinctive feel of iL's ouln from aII Ehe pine trees planted in there andthere's no reason ue couldn't do that on a lot of the major roads. That's areal good idea. 50 one goal would be, weII I don't know if this is a goal. I think one thing I hear everybody saying is we want an over, in thesubdivision ordinance we want an overall plan for the subdivision that r.r i l. Itake into account Lhe.boulevard and things like that and then'we'd want toset minimums for each lot. t^le've already got it covered in the PUO becausethey have to have a landscape plan so that's a separate item I guess. tle want to take account of major entrances into the City and the major thoroughfares. Krauss; That is something that is valid and needs towouldn't be in the ordinance because Lhese are pubLic so the way we insligate. be done but improvement ir p r o jects Emmings: Do they have to be? If we have an overall plan for what TH 5'sgoing to Iook Like, at least as far as the landscaping along the highwaygoes, then r^rhen thal property is developed. It's sort of like, that's whenit gets done by the developer, Krauss; There are two things to that. tlhen TH 5 is expanded, we're going to Hant to have a landscaping plan within the right-of-way at majorintersections of what we do. Then beyond that you're going to r.,ant to have some sort of a Iandscaping theme ideally in a corridor whereby adjacentproperties, when they're developed, reflect that theme. I'm not prepared to do that par! of it in a Iandscaping plan yet until we've gone throughthat corridor analysis and we've deveLoped some specific standards. BuL Idon'L think thaL should stop us from going ahead and getting a landscapingplan in place tha! deals with development throughout the city right now. conrad: t^Jhat did you just saybefore e,e do the plan? PauI? You want the standards in place first Krauss: place in tJeIl, we need the general standards that apply to everything everythe city. PlanningApril 3, Commission Meet i ng L997 - Page 44 No. t^Je don'! b,ant to do that until we do the, that's part of the study as I see it. Conrad: Like on the individual lots? Krauss: Yeah. As Ne go lhrough a corridor study on TH 5, you may well develop specific standards for properties adjacent to the TH 5 corridor andthen have specific requirements built inLo the ordinance someplace !hatgets you hrhat you're looking for. BUL I'm not prepared to make those kindsof value judgments as to r.lhat you hrant to see in a corridor study until we do it. Emmi ngs : cor r i dor Conrad: Nhat I see, what I need to know from PauI is what are b,e about here? I'm throwing some things out and I really don't know talking about in lerms of the overall Chanhassen pJ^an. Again, t.,e Iooking at TH 41 and we're looking aL TH 2L2 and we're ]ooking at The major arteries. l,Jha! is it that we could do and how do we do some guidance. Do we have a chance to do something there? Is it that is so costly that we can't do it? tal ki ng what I'm 're TH 101 .it? I need somethi ng Emmings: I think you're talking about something different here. To me what Paul brought in front of us is an ordinance that says, what do peoPle do when they develop property and what you're talking about is, what does Chanhassen do, number one in it's own, in lhe righ!-of*way Lo make lhe City Iook the way we Hant it to? And number tuo, maybe to require develoPments adjacent to that. conrad; That's the key right there- If we new development comes in and they know whatgot a plan that says for TH 5 corridor this have the plan in place when the they have to do because rete 'veis what you've got to fif into. Krauss: I think that's going to come. tle're just not PrePared Lo do that unlil ure develop those standards as a part of the studv. Now the onlv corridor He committed to studving specifically is TH 5 and I don't know that we can devote a specific amount of study to each one. HoNever, the TH 1o1 relocation study, when Fred Hoisington did that, has a landscaping design element embodied into il. So u,e do these things as the projects come along. Batzli: But it seems to me he really toned that down due to constraints imposed by HnDot based on curves in the road. Krauss; MnDot makes it very tough. Emmings: You've got to keep the trees auay so the cars don't hit them. Krauss: HeII basically with the landscaping we were doing on TH 5, MnDot won't let anything happen in their right-of-way but Paving treatments and any of the landscaping and the monumenting we're doing, He're doing on land we e.ither own or buying jusL outside the HnDot right-of-way. Batzli: So realistically then, how much like that? ...sumac on the slopes. Iandscaping can ure do on a Project PlanningApril 3, Commission Heeti ng 1991 - Page 45 Erhart: Does the risht-of-way include the side slopes or doesn't i!? Krauss: It depends. Some places yes. Emmings: Right now should Paul's focus be on number one, pul.Iing everything LhaL relates to .landscaping into a Iandscaping secLion in the ordinance? Number two, dealing with the general requirements? Landscaping requirements for developers in the city and maybe this other thing is another step. Is that the .,ray you see it? So the first step is to geL thegeneral stuff aII pulled together in one place and find out what it is. Find out what Lhe requiremenls are. Conrad: I see this step as being relatively, you know we can make this are).atively simple sLep. l^,lhether we're talking one tree or 3, and Lhere's some other things. Obviously I'm simplifying that. I guess my onlyperspective is if we really talk about wha! Dick tJing is saying, I don'tthink 3 trees in a Iot is going to make a difference. Emmings: tJeLl and I don't think thaL's t"rhat Dick is saying either. He'sgot the step. Conrad: Risht. He's saying, that's a real easy, we can change a numberfrom 1to 3 and we're going Lhe righL direcLion but I think the overallcity planning is really whaL can make a difference in landscaping and the sooner ure get to it, the more chance we have of getting something done as we develop because there will be, as soon as the HUSA starts going in,we're going to have some pressure to develop. Batz]i: But I think we disagree from the standpoint of I lhink 3 trees is an enormous step forward for a lot of us Iiving in cornfields and don'tunder estimate allowing people to put a couple of trees in their mortgagerather than going out and purchasing them later. Farmakes: A IoL of Lhat land is cornfields, BatzIi: Yeah. Ahrens: I deve I opme nt Lake, Emm i ngs : Krauss: Er harL: there. Ijust addCity may I don'tI mean He ulher e most developing of the much around Lotus agr ee . is. understand. . . Thatre not going in and Do somethi ng . Okay. I've got just one small item. On page 6. 2O-f779, item (3) down 've always felt that the City had too much...replacing.. If you a statement that said, where existing tree cover is minimal , therequire the replacement of removed trees - Emmi ngs: t^thich number? Oh I see . PIanni ngApril 3, Commission Meet i n9 1997 - Page 46 Erhart; (3). tlhere there's a few trees but it's not ain and require them to replace cut down trees. That atIittle bit of guidance Nhen you can apply Lhat and wheniL's essentially at your discretion. forest, you Ieast gives not. Right can go usa now Krauss: Jo Ann and I u,ere just talking that tae need to look at the uholetree preservation program. Tree replacement program with Lhis. One of thethings that hopefully t:e'II have reaL shortly but I'm not counting on it,is the DNR reforestation thing where, I'm not sure how I,II bring that inbut they may designate a stand of Lrees of being particularly importantinLact so there maybe more value placed on that. EI lson: ft says may. Erhart: f understand it says may but it ]eaves it entirely up to thediscretion of the city and I'm just saying we can put a little bi.t ofdireciton into it by saying where existing tree cover is minimal , h,e can make them replace trees but right now could we just say, weII gee. You'vegot to take out trees because you're go.ing to put a house pad there.Therefore, f want you to put. Olsen: We can put in urording that allows for the housepad and driveway improvements but beyond that. Krauss: Eden Prairie which has received some acclaim forpreservation ordinance. I don't like it because it's so do build on a forested 1ot and you have to remove trees,to replace it and you may have no place to put it. Olsen: I think that gels to, it's Lheir private property. once it gets to that point. That might have been, is thatcouldn't do anything? their sever e you 've tr eethat if you obl i gated Erhar!: That's not right and that's uhat I'm trying to avoid by just giving a Iittle bit, by adding a phrase to give direction here because f know thal's not our intenL. Batzli: Jo Ann? I recall this year then too, i.t seems Lo me we had somebody subdivide a ]ot not too long ago and he sold it to some guy who'sgoing to build a house and then clear cut the Iot and we couldn't do anything about it. Is that sti]I possible under, I don't remember h,hat we were going to do about that to fix that loophole where a person subdividedthe lot and then they sold the lots to someone else to build. t^,,hat why I do WE t hey said Batzli: I don't think so. But it r,rasn't really, they hadn't gone the construction process yet but they stiII uere able to clear cutto build a house. It seemed like a mishty simple way to avoid aIIregulations on doing this type of thing. throughthe lotof our Erhart: f undersLand but I'm just saying, if you get a complete).y woodedIoL and he's got. PIanni ng April 3, Commission Meet i ng 1991 - Page 47 Batz]i: How do you tie that into the conLractor house that might maybe buys it as a spec lot and You have somebody comes in and he's got a piece into 3Iots and sel]s it to contactor A, B and c Olsen: Like Triple Crown. That's the one rightVista. Used to be covered with vegetation. Emmings: But if you have an overall plan for emcompass bolh Lree preservation and planting Emmings: But I knour he stood there and said,preserve these trees and he said do you thinkpreserve every tree I can because people wiII sense to us so we didn't put any restrictions bulldozer and made it flat. EIlson: Maybe we should have a hate Iistjust pass them around. And then just say, landscaping restrictions and penalties. that's going to build a he's going to, you know. of property. He divides it on Kerber. North of Chan said, are you going Lo ctazy. I'm going to more for that. It made it and he just took a the and t^le I'M Pay on subdivisionyou get a.L I that would the people. Krauss: You record a development contract against the property. If there's specific conditions, that uilI 9o along with the title which we used to not do very effectively but ure have been for the last year. Olsen: And if there is a significant amount of trees, there would have been a tree removal plan required. tjhen the building permit comes in, they show what trees will be preserved and how they'II be preserved. So then, and that's happened since then. t^jhen we've been better at this, where they'll still cut down more trees than that. t^Je've been able to go back out there and say no. This is the p]an. It shows this and you have to replace those. Again, you're just getting little trees instead of a big huge oak but we've been able to have them repLace them. Emmings: ft sounds like the abuses have comef guess that's where we need that.in the subdivisions and Krauss: I don't Lhink we'II ever be able to stop individual abuses. Exceptthat 952 of the Lime common sense is going to dictate that they're going topreserve what gives them some visual pleasure. t^,hat adds value to the lot and developers aren't as dumb as they used to be. Emmings: No. They come in Iie. On that very one I think Brian's talking about, the guy stood right there and said, do you think I'm stupid. I wouldn't cut down these trees because f can get more for the lots with trees on them and then he went and cut down every damn tree. for those ki nds make sure he's of peopLegot a lot and of Emmings: That 45 minuLes was an hour 1ong. BatzI i : t^Je're getli ng belter . Planning April 3, Commission Heet i ns 7997 - Page 48 Emmings: PauI had some specific questions on the summary on page 5 of hisreport here. Or Jo Ann. f'm sorry. Krauss: Do you taant to start this now given the time? won't take Lhat long. Yeah, I think weEmmi ngs: I have ought to do it. a feeling this one Erhart: Yeah. I've got some issues on it. Emmings: The only one I've got, since I've got the floor, was when you talk about the bluff impact zone wiLhin 20 feet of the top of the bluff.just wonder why it isn't a bigger number. The bluff impact zone talksabout, page ? is, I don't know why it's not 1OO feet? Erhart: tlhat L jne are you on? BIuff Impact Zone .Emmings: Page 2 EI Ison: Second major paragraph . I Erhart: Under item 1? Emmings: No above lhere where it's defined. OIsen: AcLualIy Lhey're finding the opposiLe, ThaL the def ini.tion ofbluff is where it has to be 30% for a certain amount and then if it levelsout, then the sleep slope or it's not a bluff so actually, the way bluffsusually are, is tha! there will be a steep slope and then you'll have itleveling out but Lhat still, the top of this is still, or the top of thebluff so you acLually already have a prelly decenL amount of area levelingout from the bluff before you do take that 2O feet. Batzli: I thought the bluff, the only part of the bluff Nas the part that was over 30%. That's where I was confused- olsen: But the top of the bluff is So you've got 30? and then you could considered part of the bluff. h.igher poi.nt. . . .segment with have anything with 182. That's a laz.StiII Erhart: 50 foot? Olsen: In fact, I don't know that you need more is what I'm geLting at, The oNR finds that Lhe 2oZ might even be... Emmi ngs: Let me tellbluff impact zone butstructure only, what? you , welI okay. a building only But you've needs to be restrictions on back 30 feet. A got set the Erhart:bring up You're getti ng here and that i nto the broader question but I want to Hy impression of this, f guess I've comment , to bee n BLUFFLINE PRESERVATION ORDINANCE. PIanni ng April 3, Commission Meet i ng 199! - Page 49 pushing to try to Preserve this bluff and everything like that from commercial development. On the other hand, I guess I'm a Iittle awesLruck by this whole thing is that one of the things I'm trying to Preserve is so people can build houses on top of Lhe bluff and overlook it and I guess my reaction is, I'm concerned we're being too restrictive in terms of the guy who wants to build his house and have a deck that is uP essentiallv to trhat you call the top of the bluff and have it essentia]ly overlook the valley and stuff. A lot of urhich those existing houses are there. You're applying standards which really aye, there's aII kinds of houses there now which would not meet this sLandard and I reaLly question why we're trying !o do lhat when I thought what we were trying to do was Protect the bluff from development right essentially down in the valley and Lhat area there. My concern is now, that's one concern. It kind of goes against whatyou're. Emmings: Yeah, because I'm including the top of the b1uff. Erhart: value ofir. Yeah, I jusL the bluff is Emmings: But you don't want to do you? Erhart:I think that's r.rhat's Right up to the edge tJel l the deck . Emm i ngs : it. To me that's part of the bis build on i! and take advantage of build at the top of a steep slope like that valuable about the land. of it though? don't undersLand thaL someone can Emmi ngs : ought to I don't mind be set back a them building houses on top of it but l think they ways . Erhart: Second concern of the whole thing is the way this reads it wilL not only just apply to bluffs but I'Il tell you. There's a lot of hills inlhe city of Chanhassen that this thing will make practically unbuildable. Batzli: l.Je can limit it to the BF Oistricts. Erhart: Because I'II telL you, and the reason I ask- You're taking thisout of the DNR shoreland ordinance and you talk about 25 feet above theordinary high water and then you're just taking that number and applying itto number one. And you're saying that a slope rising at least 25 feet above the toe of the slope, not the high water mark and I think that number's Loo smalI. I Iike the overall thing. I really like it butI think where it's getting too broad and we're going to be applying thisLhing to hills. As a result, you're going to have a major impact on howthings will get done and I don't think that was our intent. I have a lotof hills on my property that are over 25 feet taII. Emmings: tJith slopes Iike these? Erhart: Oh yeah. Erhart: PI anni ngApril 3, Commission Heet i ng!99! - Page 50 Emm i ngs : where you And you don't worry about having a deal like in California heresliding ab,ay down the hill. Ahrens: go oh In Eden Prair ie , Ellsonr those. . . Or Eden Prairie jus! during that 1OO year storm there were some of Erhar!: In the firs! place you've got 50 feet of an 18 foot slope and thenyou've got another 3O feet of the setback. You're talking about restricting a lot of land from use by Lot owners. EIIson: It was for impac! wasn't it? ft wasn'! to save a bunch of decks on top of the bluff. You're preserving how nice it looks. Ahrens: I thought this will alI about protecLing bluffs, not Proteeting them for the development of houses on the top of them. Erhart: I understand Lhat but there has to be a Point where you draw line. I mean if people want to build houses, why don't we just sav vo a u can't see a and I are a build houses on lakes because I don't want to drive by in my house and you wouldn't have a house - So there's a practical think we've gone, what scares me is apparently some of these lready incorporated into the DNR ordinance. boat and limit number s Olsen: [^,e 'r e Ordi nance . going to be having Lo adop! these with our Shoreland Erhart: 25 feet is, that's nothing. That's a hill here in Chanhassen. There's a lot of places that are hills that have nothing to do with what we're talking about bluffs that will fall into this regulation. Emmings: They did say, somewhere in here thev told us t,hat you thought would actually be protected here. I don't know. I can't get too excited about a hiII. I don't knour exactlv urhat a hill is I guess- Olsen: It's steep slopes development of that. was what maybe you.'re picturing and you do allor,r Erhart: That's what I'm saying but I think with this ordinance ke're not going to anymore. Olsen: Yeah. Emmings: Remember Tim uhen ure talked about the land that went by the golf course and somebody wanted to build a house Lhat was kind of going to hang out over the bluff almost and r think u'le were arl real opPosed to that' Both because it imposed on the creek there, the valley that tras there and it didn'!, weII I don't know. I remember thinking it didn't sound safe to me in addition. Emmings: That's what I thought this was aII about. PIa nni n9April 3, Commission Meet i ng 199L - Page 51 Erhart: But Steve, there's a difference between 8o foot setback. You have 18? slope Emm i ngs :tlhy are you saying 80? Because you have 50 feet of 18?. You've go! 50 feet going what direction? Back from essentially where the 3OZ slope is. 182 slope and then you've got another 30 feet Erhart: Emm i ngs : Then you have 50 of setback. That's Erhart:feet of 8o feet. Emmi ngs : Erhart: From what? From what I would consider realIy where Look at this the bluff diagram. star Ls . Look at this oneEmm i ngs : I lm - I don't agree with that. Erharl: The toP of the bluff means. EIIson: There's a picture of it. It's described here. Emmings: A picture's r.Jorth a thousand words. Erhartr I've got it. Let me read it for you. The top of the bluff meansthe higher point of a 50 foot setgment with an average slope exceeding 182. Conrad: okay, and that's this part. Erhart: No, that's the 3OZ. I'm reading Lhe ordinance to you. Olsen: The top of the bluff is where it Ievels out... Emmings: Put this one up. Erhart: I know but that doesn't agree with what it says here. Emmings: I think you're reading steep slopes. Isn't thdt the steep s I opes? Emmings: I Iike t.hat better. Erhart: It's Nhere your 30? is. Then you have another 50 feet where itdrops down to 182. I'm just saying, so then you finally get to the top andthen you've got another 30 feet so your house is 80 feet back from where. Olsen: The steep slope is kind of betlreen these areas and that,s r.rhereCeiI was saying that either 20 feet...and then in the area of 18*, then youhave. This would be the top and then you'd have 20 feet setback from here. PIa nni ng April 3, commission Meet i ng 199L - Page 52 tlell you wouldn't bui'Id a house in Puerto Rico. Nobody would ]ive Puerto Rico if you couldn't build a house on a 3oz slope. Emmings: Haybe uJe ought to step back because I thoughL what we uere tryingto do here was keep development off the top. The edge of the slope. t^ledon't want to see deve).opment on the slope itself and basically from theriver to the top of the slope a little Nays back we didn't want to see any development. That's where I thought we Nere coming from. Ellson: So nature wise it just looked like 1OO years . . . so r.,hat did you have i nEmmings: tJeIl mind? you're the one who proposed this Erhart: f never had in m.ind tha!- I was trying to get rid of the development actually dor.ln by the highway. This is aII kind of shocking to me. I'm not opposed to me because I think it wiII work but I'm just saying,there's got to be really, He really need to define what our goals are here.f guess I don't have any problem with the houses way up there that have decks that come right to the edge because they like to Iook over thevalley. I really have no problem with that. It's no different than other houses around. Housing on lakes. It's an amenity that those people u,ant and it's really not that intrusive. Emmings: And residential development like that aL the top of the bluff doesn'! bother you but you wouldn't wanL to see any other kind? Erhart: I don't want Lo see commercial,/industrial development in the valley or situations. tJe don't uJant houses on 3OZ slope. I absolutely agree with that because of the erosion problem - And the thing is, that sounds good here but there's a ]ot of places in the Norld where houses arebuilt on 3oZ slope as a rule. Emmings: And they wash out into Lhe lake. Conrad: They shouldn't be there. Er hart : there in conrad: Let me follow up.erosion? t^lhen ure had that olsen: The DNR's big Agai n, this ordinance The 20? reason for the setbacks Jo Ann would be for Lhing is more visual . They t^,ant to keep things.is for the shoreland ordinance so it's bluffs along Emmirrgs: In that peculiar case yeah but urhat about here where you've got no 18 at al.L? It goes up 30 and then it starts to level off- Erhartr If you go walk Lhose Hinnesota River bluffs, it's far more common,in fact you have variations aII the way up Iike Lhis. It doesn't go up andjust stop like that picture. That's not the way that Minnesota Val.IeyLooks. In fact I'm not even sure, urell. I quite frankly think iL's goingto get a hard time. It's going to get so restrictive because the fact thatit dips back down. It's pretty idealistic. Planning April 3, Commission Meeti ng 199I - Page 53 the lakes so they don'l want it cleared completely the home. The setback is for visual but also for right up so you can see erosion. conrad: I just kept thinking that Tim, if you put a house right on the edge of the bluff, you've goL a Iot of ldater coming off your roof and itjust seemed, you know for a rain storm, it just seems like you're accentuating lhe erosion. That's how I interpretted the ordinance. If you keep your house back a litt]e bit, you're reducing the erosi.on. Maybe that's not a big deal but that was my interpretation of the reason. Mine wasn't vi sua L , Ellson: PIus not al. I the decks are good looking and Lhings like that. Ahrens: It's too windy to have a deck up Lhere anyway. Erhart: This can be applied, unless I'm reading it wrong, to a lot ofhills in the City Lhat have nothing to do with bluffs- 252 rise. Krauss: That's a question we have when ule Iooked at starting to put together a map of where these things occur, It's not only the MinnesotaRiver bluff lines. It's around Lotus Lake. It's in some different areas and there are more than I think ure would have thought. You're raising avalid point. On Lhe other hand, I think there's a problem with alloroingpeople to clear cut 30 foot openings in tree cover because they want toIook at the Minnesota River - Erhart: I have no problem with that. Krauss: hle've been talking to a couple of guys who are amateur naturalist who grew up in this area and have been walking Bluff Creek foy 20 years and would like the City to be more active in preserving the natural areas ofBluff Creek around the golf course. And they've offered, I think tre'regoin9 to probably try to schedule this for May sometime- They're going toconduct a tour, a walking tour of the area down there and I Has going toinvile you and the Park Board and whoever Nanted to go on the City Council.But they poinLed out, there's a neul home being bui.It and it's by one of the Redmond son-in-laur's on an 80 acre tract of ground pas! the golf course onBluff Creek Drive. You can go to see it. t^lhere they met our setbackrequirement from Bluff Creek. The creek itself but they chopped, I meanit's a very steep bluff t^rhere they built and they chopped, clear cuL thetrees so that their home could be hung very dramatically. It's aspectacular home. Hung dramatically out over this pristine valley. Andthese guys said they were horrified. They were uralking through there andhere's this area that no intrusion has ever been in and now you walk upthere and you see this thing over hanging the valley. Now they may own it.They do own part of it but should they have been allowed to intrude in thaturay? I haven't seen that aspect of it but the spector of it I findtroubling. Erhart: I agree and maybe what ue have to do is find out what areas hrewant to protect in this manner. l.lhere you don'! want Lo see anything andprotect those areas. On the other hand you 've got a guy who owns a lot onLotus Lake and you've got 1,OOO houses that are parked right up to the edge PlanningApril 3, Commission Meet i ng t997 - Pase 54 of the cliff, and now this guy just becauseyears, now wants to build houses, his housefurther than aII the existing houses? he hasn't built on it has got to be 80 feet for 3O bac k Emmings: No he doesn't because isn't there a regulalion that saysyou're coming inLo an established neighborhood you can vary, or you so you're building up at the level of r{here the existing homes are? ifbuild Olsen: we can but that's something that Kraussr Also, it should not apply. I mean if you've got rolling terrain, u,e're in marin country here. The glacier stopped here and dumped out piles of rocks a]l over the place and now some of them have trees on it orthey're steep. Those kinds of things are sort of abberations on the landscape and just because they're steep, you're right. They shouldn'tautomatically trip this regulation necessarily. That's in the Shoreland Ordinance itself apply to this ordinance. Emmings: I don't Lhink that's our intent. Conrad: t^lhat you jusL said about building on a lake and steep 6lope. There's jr..ist no way it should be done. Just absolutely no way so I don't care uhat the previous residents did. There should be no building on a steep slope going to the lake. There's no way they can prevent erosiongoing in there. There's absolutely no way. Erhart:Are t^le I I I'm Conrad: Lrhart: Conrad: But Steve don'! believe that making a poinL and I should be done. you talking aboul steep slopes? 3OZ oy 18?z? nol disagreeing with that Ladd. But what we was making a 've got cou nter here. point.Iwas that Erhart: Again, my concern is that you've got 8o feet of 182 that Ne're also restricting and again while it may be appropriate for the, you know the Bluff Creek thing by the golf course is the classic case. It's level and man it drops but most other areas don't quite fit the classic case. I think ule'v got to put some more thought into this. Ellson: No. In fact I'm only looking at one place in all of Chanhassen. Emmings: I was thinking Hinnesota River VaIley. Krauss: You knour but it's across Lake Minner^rashLa from Tanadoona where those homes are perched up on that bank Emmi ngs: l^le I IThere's arou nd you. IL's off t hat Lhere's two places by the lake. There's Minnewashta.in that little bay where there's some houses high on the Emmings: I don't think anybody sitting up here had hills in mind when we started aIl this. Planning April 3, Commission Heet i ng 7997 - Page 55 hill and then there's that old Governor's in this. There's a real steep hiII there, mentioning. It's righ! on the Tanadoona call it. That's risht on that property. that probably would f it think is the one you're or Tuna NoodLe as we manston which I pr oper ty . Conrad: But if we're looking at bluffs, I guess h,e've got to be looking at bluffs regardless. Emmings: Ne don't have to, Conrad: Don 'L we? Emmi ngs: [^le don 'L have to do anythi n9. Define ourEr har t : [^le don 't have to .goa I s of r.r hat - bluffs.Conrad: So the goal is to preserve the ErharL; tle]I initially the goal was to preserve Lhe Hinnesota River Valley and I think we should include Bluff Creek and some of those other ravinesthat feed into the Minnesola River. I Lhink we've got to decide whether we're trying to preserve bluffs on Lotus Lake and Minnewashta. conrad: t^JeIL if it applies, I think we should. Erhart: Maybe rewri.te it so it doesn't apply. Emmingsi See on Minnewashta and Lotus I would expect that the Shoreland Ordinance will apply and take care of that- I don't think wegot to worry about that. ["le've already sot something that covers Lhat. me this was, and I agree with Tim- The idea was the Hinnesota RiverVaIIey. The creek beds that come down to it and I don't knou, maybe uespecify where it appl ies . To can If weKrauss 3 tJell you couId. can agree on uhere those designate that. You could dothings should overlay distr ict .are found, ue can this as be found an or Olsen: It's going to be tough. t"le know certain bluff areas like you're saying urhere you Hant Lo protect them but Lhere might be a bluff area thatmeels the 3OZ slope that we don't know about but should still be protected. IL'd be hard to determine, how do you know uhat's a bluff and what's not abluf f . Emmi ngs: Olsen: I Emmi ngs : Aren't there topographic maps that you can look at? started to have one of our engineering technicians try to. I suppose you 90 crazy Iooking at them. O.Isen: He goes crazy because like you say, it's bluffs but the same, untilthat development comes in, then they would be required to show us what's Planning April 3, bluff would Krauss3 I guess I don't think,'yeah I agree with Joprobability exactly delineate r.rhere this happens butof box in areas where this ordinance applies. Erhart: Is that what Eden Prairie does? Krauss: I don't lhink they do. ordinance that applies wherever slope ordinance. It's not the b Commission Meet i ng f997 - Page 56 and what's steep slope when they come in trith their plan. Then we know. Ann. what can't can do al I sor t [.,1e HE ).n IS Iirlu think they just have a standingoccurs. In fact it's called the steepffline Batzli: f agree urith Tim. I think the original intent of this was toprotect something that, I mean we have a major thoroughfare through the city and we u,ere trying Lo avoid having it all commercialized and ruin thebluff in the meantime but I guess I'm not adverse to where it's going a little bit. I don't know that somebody, I guess I would raLher see somebody have to have a setback off the top of the b]uff. I think that's a reasonabLe requirement I guess. I like the direction of it and I guess I don't mind applying it to other places in the city. conrad: So far I agree with that until I can get a better feeling of what we're talking abouL and hor^r it would restrict development or hurt people. I Iike the seneral direction. I don't think ure're talking hills. As much as I'd like to preserve hil]s, I don't want to bulldoze Lhem but I don't know that this, that that's the point of this ordinance. Olsen: I think. . .definition of bluff. It might be steep slope but that allows alteration with certain conditions which would be nice too - again, to have Erhart: consider Maybe what I can do is show uJere the areas of concern. Krauss: There's actual.I y Farma kes: t^lou]d that be you some areas of r^rhere I would Maybe I misunderstand. a little bit of a bluff there. considered a bluff? IL seems to make this grade. enough distance though to meet this definition. topo . back to you with some more information. t^le'll thi ngs . Krauss: Let's go out in and someday and see if it applies. Olsen: Or come Iook at the topos and figure out where it is, Olsen: It might noLtje'd have to look at have the Krauss: Uhy don't we come follow up on some of Lhese Farmakes: Would the area inbetween Lake Ann Park and Greenwood Shores Park, there's a steep slope area there off of the Eckankar ProPerty. It overLooks Lake Ann. Planning Apri] 3, Commission Heet i n9 l99t - Page 57 CalI it a steep slope ordinance. Now you know why they went with we have a mowing ordinance here that if you don't mot,t the City Ellson:that. Er hart: Do comes out? Emmi ngs: You can call it a bluff but maybe you don't want it a hill. you the specifics that it has to be... Haybe that couldOlsen: It sives be a steep hill. Erhart: I think the number that really hit me was the...in Chanhassen isjust nothing. If we had picked enough. IL could be just a hiII and whereyou have development, you may have one street on the top of the hill and houses up there and then another level of the street. ThaL's real common throughout our city. The number I would have picked for that was 50. Ithink would have then defined it more as a really big change in elevation. 25 feet in Chanhassen is nothing. This room is 10 feet high. Thedifference between different neighborhoods is 25 feet. You're chewing up 8O feet potentially of making land unuseable. That's where I was going. Ithought the number ought to be 50, t^lhat's concerning me is that apparentlythey've already adopting 25 in the shoreland ordinance. Houever, it onlyapplies Lo shoreland areas so if we want to pick that number, I'm just trying to point out that it's going to be applied to a ]ot of places that we hadn't considered - Emmings: Alright. Paul's got I think the next thing we ought to do isPaul's goL some news about various things. Oh, I have to go back to the Iandscape ordinance for one minute. Here's a folder I'm going to give toPaul. It's from the Minnesota Native Plants Society. It's about nativeplant enthusiasm and it's called Ethics and Consideration. f know we'vegot an ordinance that says you can't let areas grou, wild and have weeds andall that and I also know that there's, it's getling to be more and more common and it's promoted by this Minnesota Native Plant Society and otherprivate concerns to ).andscape using natural prairie grasses and otherthings that are not mowed. I even saul a booklet out at the Arboretum when I was out there one day that had a proposed ordinance in it which Imeant to copy and forgot about but I'lI get a copy and get that in. But Ithink we ought to, basically this thing said if peop].e want to try andconvince the City and their neighbors that what they're doing isn,t just Ietting their yard 90, they've got to do things like keep track of theexpenditure and the effort that urent into Iandscaping with natural plants. Make sure they're keeping just common weeds out of it and making an effortto maintain it, even though that doesn't include motding. I don,t know. IIike that idea. I think it's appropriate. I thought about doing it in my own yard. Letting some areas go natural. Emmings: Yeah, you can be tagged. Emmings: t^le]I the definition of bluff includes a hill so you're going to have to so you're going to have to. PIanning April 3, Commission Meet i ng 7991 - Page 58 Krauss: [.Je have a noxious weed ordinance, But the uleeds have to meet the narrow definition of being noxious and there's a defined Iist. So you may be able to get away with doing this right now. You may get complaintsbut I'm not sure the City could do anything about it assuming that you're actually achieving that type of a yard. Emmings: Okay. t^iell I would just hate to see that kind of Iandscaping foreclosed because I think iL's kind of interesting. If you don't thinkour ordinance does that, then I'm not going to worry about it. OtherwiseI'11 bring in Lhat ordinance that I saw. Krauss: I'd be inLerested in taking a look at it. Emmings: Okay, I 'II do that. Ahrens:grasses. It's Iandscaped around Lhe University of Minnesota with prairie Emmings: l^lher e? Ahrens: Around, it's been so many years I can't remember the name of the bui Idings. Emminss: l,Jhich campus? tJhich State? Ahrens: Yeah. It's around Northrup Auditorium and around the, they've landscaped these beautiful areas and they have planters wi'th natural. grasses around the archiLecture building. Around aII the older buildings in there and it's just beauLiful . But you know those are hard to find. The seeds and stuff are. Emmings: There's a private, Prairie Restoration is a Private company that deals in these kinds of seeds. Erhart: It sounds Iike you're trying to screen the Electrical Engineering Building. I can understand that. Batzli: t^le]l they built a new one you know, Emmings: It's 1o:2o and it's time for PauI's News. Krauss: Now for something really different. tle have a new Metro Council representative. Bonnie Featherstone who resides in Burnsville. I can tell you that that raised a few eyebror.rs amongst a number of People that, Dakota County has three representatives because of a quirk of how Lhe districts Iay out. And there was concern that if somebody isn't truly from the western suburban area, is he or she going Lo be represenlative. I don't know how lhat's going to turn out buL I got in contact r^rith her vesterdav, or today. I can't recall, and we had a 45 minute conversation and I found her to be very receptive !o having an oPen mind and she's going lo come out here and meet with us. The Mayor and the City Hanager wiII take her to lunch and show her the community and fiII her in on the ComPrehensive PIan. She says that she's not territorial. She doesn't have a political agenda - Planning April 3, Commission Meet i n9 l99t - Page 59 That she's receptive to making the Melro Council more resPonsive to local government and thaL's one of her issues which is great. So we're trying to open up lhe lines of communication with a new person and we're very hopeful that that wiII be successful and I'lI keep you posted as to how that's 9oin9. The other thing with the Hetro Council is they have had our plan since February 28th or whenever it uas, and they have set up a meeting that f have Lo go to tomorrow morning where they're going to have about 6 of their staff people who reviewed our plan and who have questions about various aspects of it. tlhat I'm hearing is thaL nobody's coming up with any bj.g bombshells at this point. That basically they're Iooking for refinements and some additional information. I understand that Michael Honson agrees that his population projections u,ere wrong. I guess it's big of him to finalLy agree to that but he still won't agree to Nhat's right. He apparently feels that we should wait a year until he gets around to redoing his numbers which is a position I find ]udicrous. But I believe that Lhe rest of the Hetro Council staff is 9oin9 to find a way around it. Nor^r this has been one of the key issues since the get go on this. I don't know what else we could have done. I mean Mike's numbers are so far out of whack that I don't understand why he has any credibility }eft at aII, but he apparently does. I wiII also keep you posted on that. I'm taking Mark Koegler down there. t^ie also retained the firm of Bonestroo, Anderlik and Rosene to assist. us in representing some comprehensive plans, sanitary sewer issues before the Metro Council. The reason for tha! is we don't have a City Engineer and the fellow that we're using at Bonestroo, Bob Schunicht was the project engineer, consulLing project engineer for the Metro t^Jaste on the Lake Ann IntercepLor so he's very familiar with thisarea. But again, I'II keep you posted. Eastern Carver County Transportation Study. The City basically adopted this because we stuck itin the Comprehensive PLan which was approved and I think you're somewhatfamiliar hJith it. We've never had a chance to get a speci.f ic discussion onwhat's in it and what are the implications and what else needs to be done. There was a meeting held in late December, early January in Carver Countythat ure couldn't 9o to because we had a City Counci] meeting that night but whaL we had decided to do was the same thing LhaL Chaska did urhich Has to have Roger Gustafson, the County Engineer and Larry Da]lam, who is theconsultant project manager, give us a talk about it and respond toquestions. And through schedul.ing conflicLs of one sort of another, wehaven't been able to arrange it until recently. We're going to be holdingthat discussion at the City Council meeting on Monday. tle'II be giving you and the HRA agendas. If you could make it, Lhat would be great. tle don'! have a real big Council agenda so I don't think it's the kind of thing that anybody's going to have to sit around until midnight to hear this. ButI'll get you the agendas out and it should be an informative discussion Ithink. Medical Arts Building or Ridgevieu Medical Arts Building I guess isthe current name. I met with them after the Planning Commission meetingand basically, you outlined some parameters for an alternative plan thatwould achieve some additional tenant signage. Basically leaving that monument sign out front the way it uas approved and tinkering uith the sign bands as a part of an overall sign package. l.le]l, they've submittedsomething that r^re thi.nk is consistent with what you blanted to see. Nor^,there may be some deLailed questions but basically you can see what it doesis it wipes out that middle sign band that r^ras the Lemporary sign- It saysDental Office and instead replaces it r.rith larger, 4 foot w.ide instead of Z Planning Apr.il 3, Commission Meeti n9 199! - Page 60 foot wide sign band. And in that sign band would allow murti-colored signswith logos. AII the other signage on the buildins is supposed to be thewhite letters that are up there now. The Goldstar Mortgage, there's apror,,ision in the sign covenants that when that tenant changes, they'II haveto bring their sign into compliance. As I said, the monumept sign outfront is back to whaL it's supposed to be. I guess 10 square feet or 10feet wide or whatever it was. Emmi ngs: t^lhat does it say? Krauss: It just says lhe building name. Emmi. ngs: Okay. Conrad: Made out of r^rhat? Did they do any, is it a simple? Krauss: I think it's an internally lit, it's a ground mounted sign wiLhplastic cuL oul... Lexan cut out type of thing. Olsen: There's additional wall signs if you want to point that out. Krauss: Yeah, there's basically two new tenant signs. Olsen: So they added the . . . Emmings: AII in lhe middl.e? Yeah. Batzli; Is this on boLh sides of the building or just the one side? Krauss: No. The back stays the same as it r,ras . Farmakes: So there's one additional sign on top of the tHo? The one wasthe dentist sign? Is that correct? Krauss: Yeah. tjhat they did is, I don't think they showed that. Farmakes: J see three in the middle there. Krauss: This one now says Chan Dentist. Farmakes: And what's the one on your left? Kr auss : Far ma kes : It says . . . So there is an additionaL sign then? Krauss: Risht. There's a total of two more tenant signs with this. They've given us a set of comprehensive covenants which I think are okay asIong as they're relying to this kind of package. There are some addilionalprovisions on L,hat I've Lrritten in there Like this building should not beallowed to have any portable trailer mounted signs out front or banners.It's still an office building. It shouldn't have any paper signs in the windows or anything else. This should be a sign package. PIanni ng Apri.l 3, Commission Meet i n9 1997 - Page 6t WelI, but when ue say this is what you get, do we also have to don't get anything else? Emm i ngs : say you Krauss: Olsen: BatzI i : of plans sca.l^e as I think you do. You already said that. Krauss: tJelL, we now have iL in a covenant package that we f i.le with theproperty. Now what we've done thus far is we've uritten it uP to the City Council and said that the Planning Commission denied lheir aPplicalion but. that you seem to indicate that this uas along the lines of what you wanted to see. tJe told the Cily Council that you have th,o oplions. You can either interpret what the Planning Commission said and approve this or you can appro\/e it in concept and send iL back to the PLanning Commission for deLailed review and approval. I guess I'd like your feedback on what you'dprefer. Getting it back here for your final review, Is this realLy consistent with what you urere thinking? Conrad: Did you say tha! was a 4 foot strip in the middle versus a 2? Krauss: Risht . Emmings: It looks smal]er, not bi.gger on this drawing. Ahrens: That's done on purpose. Krauss: t^lel I no, I corporate logos andbuilt around that.that long stream of think what they're showing is they tend to be a Iittle more They've got Lhe width so theyletters. you're goi ng with your compact and dense anddon't need the length for All I can say is when we get the stuff, make surewith one date and aII the dimensions on the plans what they say. You knou, this is just incredible. there'sare the one set sam e a way Conrad: Do we like the two different size of bands? I guess little bi! of a problem. I didn't think it was going to come and I know some of us said we Iiked taller. I'm hav i n9 back t hat Ahrens: I didn't think it was going to come back multi-colored. Iguess I'm a little confused PauI when you said the next tenant who replacesthe Goldstar Mortgage sign is 9oin9 to have to bring the sign into compliance because it's not in compliance now because it's noL whiteletLering but we're going to a}Iow colored signs in the middle. Thatdoesn't make any sense to me. Krauss: That's where it gets, that's where it becomes subjective and aIittle different. I wasn't sure wheLher that met the criteria that you were talking about or not. But what Lhey're talking about is the whitelettering on the outside urings and on the portico's. The only othervariance to that would be the colored signs with logos in Lhe middle. Farmakes: These are backlit after hours right? After business hours? Planning Apr i I 3 , Commission Meet i n9 7991 - Page 62 Ahr ens : Conr ad : I don 't I don't like that . Iike it. Ahrens: I think it should aII look the same. most the time but I think on this buildins iLattractive a bui ldi ng. I mean I needs it. hate confor m i tyIt's not Lha t Conrad: Yea h - Krauss: NeII, I can convey those comments to the City Council. But inprinciple, is this concept, whether or noL you agree with the actual signage, is the concept particular with the sign bands? Emmings: Oh yeah . That's fine. Conrad: I think them having that middle sign band. They can put three names out there. I just don't feel, from u,hat I see, that it's aesthetically what I thought rrre ulere trying to encourage. Krauss: Why don't I try to encourage the City Council to concept and we']I bring it back to you for final acLion. make the final decision on lhat. accept the Tha! way you can Emminss: [^ie don't make final decisions. You oh would if the Council allows you to. Emm i ngs :real I y? That's real power man. Conrad: Just so you're communicating at least what I Lhought we were to do is give them a 2 foot band just ]ike the rest and it was going look very similar to the balance. I really didn't care if they had 3 in there oy 2, I just Has going to give them a band in the middle. Emmings: And you were pro color. Conradr I made that speech but I don't know that I made it, 90rn9to name s Batzl i : You 're renigging now. know that think Tim Conrad: I don't developments. Ithe ]oso stuff. I made it for thaL buildine. made Lhe speech for color and I like Iogo . on other Iiked it He Erhart: I do but that's, I mean you've got some of it color and then some of it r^rhite . It doesn't make any sense at aII . conrad: f guess against the wood exterior, I just don't think that this is an effective design. I like the practicality. t^lhat He're doing is Ietter people know that they're there. It's a quasi advertising deal but it's more of a, in my mind it's more of just saying, hey they're here and PlanningApril 3, Commission Meeti ng 1997 - Page 63 helping citizens find r^rhere they're located more than a glaring advertising sign. Batzl i : is that So if going they made all three of them the same as the outbound ones, to be okay? Conrad: Then comfortable with Lhat. Emmings: And 2 foot band. We don't have to go to 4 feet. I,M the Krauss: I'11 convey that, Interestingly enough Ijam in Phoenix IasL week and I looked up and I saur on a single story office service buildins and theexactly like Lhat but it uras white. Emmings: Okay. Did you take a picture of that? was the sign, stuck in a traffic American Family sign Lhe logo I oo ked Krauss: No . Erhart: I still Lhink BaLzli: But, would as the other signs? Krauss; I wil] try to you allow white tlou Id you let convey your they shou I d with the logo if it r.ras the same color them put their logo up there? comments to the City CounciL take the signs off the porticos. Conrad: Of f of tahere? Erhart: Off the porticos. To me that's what kills the building. Thoseporticos should have remained undecorated and the signs could be in thebackground. See to me that's the whole pountinance of this. Krauss: I'lI try Lo convey the sentiment I think I hear to the Council butyou may !.,a nt to contact them individually. Theoretically they could just approve it this way and that's the end of it. So aII I can do at thispoint is convey...thoughts and I'd be happy to do that. Last couplethings. Briefly. The surface water utility district. t^te've sent outrequests for qualificati.ons on about 17 firms. Emmings: You also sent out bills and I got one. Krauss: l^,le've gone through a uhole billins cycle. tJe'vecomplaints. t^le've had some questions and some were valid some adjustments in the billing. had some and we've made Emmings: I didn't mean urhat I said. Krauss: Oh, we didn't adjust yours. But by and large the concern that, uesent out 5,OOO bills and we maybe had 20 people caII up about it so itwasn't a great number and I think we've been able to resolve any issuesassociated with that. Anyway, by Friday afternoon we wiII have gotten backinitial proposals from consultant teams on doing the three phased study forus, Lhe wetLands, the storm water and water quality. t^,hat He are proposing PlanningApril 3, Commission MeeLi n9 1997 - Pase 64 to do at that point is, I've talked to the Mayor about this, is with an in- house committee is review those things, those 17 or however many we get, and come up with a short list of maybe 5. Then ask those 5 firms to prepare detailed responses, Nor4 I've asked the Mayor to sel uP a task force, or to se! up people to sit r,lith us and intervietr Lhe 5 because u,e don't want to make that decision. This is a long term relationshiP. l^Je think it HarranLs having some Council representation and some Planning Commission representation on that review committee. I'd also Iike Lhis committee to work on setting up a task force to work with whoever we pick over the next probably, it's about a 2 year Program to develoP this stuff because it means some changed ordinances. It affects ProPerties. There's a lot of policy things. I honesLly don't specifically see it as a sole P]anning Commission responsibility. I Iike the idea of having some Council representation- Some Planning Commission rePresentat.ion and some Lake Associations. Some interested individuals working together on this so we get more of a cross section of people, Possibly a developer if that's appropriate. But we'I1 keep you tracking on this and I'II ]et you know when this is coming up. I'm asking the Council to think about this on Monday so they can give us some names to work with. The last thing we have is we have another requesL for proposals out on doing a comprehensive sewer and water plan in the new MUSA area. t^Je've had some significant interest raised on differenL properties in the neuJ HUSA area and the first question is always, where do you hrant us to hook up to water and sewer? tlhere should the City trunk lines be and the answer is, we don't know. [.le've only got vague ideas but never laid them out so we took some initiative and we put out proposals to get some folks to work with us and work up that plan. I'It be taking that to the City Council in a couple weeks ' HopefulLv ure can get somebody on board and get thaL study out by early summer 'so people have better information to wor k with. But there is a lot of interest out there. I think that does it for me. Emmings: Okay, Does anybody got anything else? Batzli moved, Erhart seconded to adjourn the meeting- and the motion carried. The meeting was adiourned at Submitted by PauI Krauss PIanning Di r ector Prepared by Nann Opheim AII voted in favor 10:37 p.m. - EH[NH[SEEN 690 COULTER DRIVE. PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSENI MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 At the April taken:. 1 2 8th City Council meeting, the following actions were Zoning ordinance amendments concernlng definitlon ofstructures and accessory structures nas given final reading. Conditional use pernit for the installation of a 70 squarefoot sign for Sinclair Oil at 7910 Dakota A.venue was appiovedon the consent agenda. Conditional use pernit for Happy Gardens II Restaurant in theseven Forty-one Crossing center uas approved on the consent agenda . Amendnents to the site plan approval concerning signage for Chanhassen MedicaL Arts Buildinq, 47O west ZSth Stieei, forRobert copeland, was reviewed by the City Council. This itemis scheduled for concurrent hearing by the planning Comrnissionand details are provided in an attached staff report. TheCouncil renanded this natter back to the planning Comnissionwith sone new direction. 4 Presentation of Eastern Carver County Transportation Study.Roger Gustafson, County Engineer, and Larry DaIIam, HNTB -project consultant, gave the Council an overviel, of theEastern carver County Study. As the planning Cornrnission is ar,rare, this docunent rras adopted by the City as an appendix tothe comprehensive Plan, however, due to tine constraints therewas never any fornal presentation specifically on this planitself. The Council appeared to be cornfortable with rnost ofthe pLan reconmendations and encouraged the County Engineer,in conjunction with city Staff and other participlnts-in theworking group who prepared this study, to undertake and CITY OF I{EII{ORANDUU TO: Planning Connission FROI,!: Paul Krauss, PlannLng Director DATE: April 11, 1991 SU&r: Report from the Director 3. t ReportApril Page 2 from Director11, 1991 coordinate neetings with Uetro council ,surrounding comnunities to ensureTransportation Study is naximized. Hennepin Countythat use of and the 6 Surface Water Utility Task Force. Staff has requested theCity Council to approve the concept of the creation of aSurface Water Utility Task force lrork group. The firstresponsibility of this group will be to assist staff ininterviewing and selecting finalist firms and project teamsrelative to retaining a consultant to rrork with the city onpreparing the water Quality/Storm Water Management and wetlandProtection Plans. The Council has agreed that this group willinitially consist of trrro to three Council people and tlroPlanning Cornmiss j.oners. I woul.d ask that the Conmissionselect tlro members who would be willing to serve in thiscapacity. Uftinately, the task force will be expanded toinclude at large ci.tizens, who ideally have some knowledge andinterest in this area. fn particular, lre will try to getrepresentation from lake homeolrner associations andindividuals familiar with environmental. issues. A devetopernight also be represented. It is initially believed that thisgroup will ultirnately consist of approxinately 1O to t2people. Those interested should be aware that are view thisvrork program as a relatively Long terD cornmitrnent. It isestimated that the planning efforts will take fron 18 to 24rnonths. Occasional speeial neetings lrill be required. ft istoo prernature to set up a schedule but we will of course tryto be as accommodating to everyones schedule and timeconstraints as possible. COMPR EHENSTVE PI,AN The l.{etro Council has had our Conprehensive plan since LateFebruary and the 90 day revie!, period expires Uay 24th. OnThursday, April 11, 1991, we had our first informal review withMetro Council Staff. I gTuess that I would have to say that there v,ras good news and bad nerrs growing out of this. The good nevs isthat everybody seems to be relatively confortable with the plandocunent itself. we received a lot of cornplinents for the qualityof the plan and in particular, we were conplinented on Chanhissenricutting edge position on virtually all environmentaL issues. Thebad news is as so often the case, tlike Munson, who is the IrletroCouncil denographer. I an sure the planning Commission can recallmy occasi.onal bitterness rrhen relating conversations with l{r.Munson and his regional nodeling efforts. Mr. Munsonrs model isthe one that told us we would have 2OOO fewer people and 15OO le;sjobs in the year 2OOO than lre do today. While Munson adnits that his model uas significantly in error inChanhassen and several other conmunities like us, he maintains thaton a regional basis, it is fairly accurate. He is unwitling to Report from DirectorApriI 11, 1991 Page 3 revi,se the nodel and forecasts until some tine in 1992 or 1993 whenhe is able to obtain all the pertinent census data. A11 he iswilJ.ing to do is recognize the nid-tern projection efforts that were undertaken for the Highway 212 Environmental Impact Statementwhich indicated growth below what is being forecasted by the citytoday. In addition, the TH 212 forecasts were only for population and households and did not recognize any enployroent growth. Mr. Munsonts position will only be of academic interest but for thecurious l[etro Council phenornena, whereby they apparently try to change reaLity to fit the regional nodel rather than ensure thattheir nodel is based on reality. At this point in tine, there are sorne Metro Council staff menbers insisting that the Highway 212forecasts, which are shown in our plan as the low range of the lownid-high range categories, are aII that they are wiLling to acceptfor land consumption forecasts. IIr. Uunson even had the audacityto suggest that hre should only get a }{USA line amendrnent with abouta yearrs worth of growth until he can rerun his nodel. fn nouncertain terms, T told hinr that this r{ras conpletely unacceptabl-e. We in Chanhassen did the responsible thing which is to revise our Cornprehensive PLan in a reasonable and rational manner and it is aten year plan plus a 5 year overage with nothing else beingacceptable. I also pointed out that we gave him our populationforecasts in December of 1989. Frankly, I also believe it is a breach of contract. The city entered into the Lake Ann Interceptor Agreement in 1986 with the lr{etro council which indicated that wewould not undertake a l,tUSA line arnendment without a concurrentredraft of our Comprehensive Plan. No where in the contract doesit say they uouLd not review our Conprehensive Plan for 6 or 7 years . I do not want to ninihize the probLens that are occurring rightnolrr, however, they were not unforeseen and lrere discussedfrequently throughout our planning process. I have nade a numberof phone ca1ls and found that the l,letro Council has approved atleast 4 conprehensive plans over the past year r{rhich haddevelopnent forecasts significantly in excess of the regionalmodel. There is also ongoing discussion with lletro. Councit staff on this matter and the city is preparing itself to bring whateverpressure is necessary to prevail. I will be neeting again srithMetro Council staff on Friday, April 12th and will report to thePlanning Commissj.on on the outcoDe of this meeting verbalLy at thenext neeting. The uayor, City Manager and myself are also meetingwith Ms. Bonnie Featherstone, who ls our new lletro CouncilRepresentative. we are going to give her a tour of the conmunityand explore this issue in detail lrith her. In a related matter of interest, WCCO TV has contacted me severaltimes over the past few months. They are planning to do a story onfast growing coruDunities and based upon discussions lrith peopte Report from DirectorApriI 11, 1991 Page 4 around the Twin Cities and revieu of census data, they haveselected chanhassen to represent the southern side of the netroarea and Andover to represent the northern side. On Wednesday,April. 10, 199L, Irlike walsher interviewed Uayor and myself for thestory. l{r. walsher rras really quite acconrnodating and allowed usto get our point across that while rre are very excited about our cornrnunity t s potential, that Chanhassen is not into grorrth forgror^rth sake. We were given an opportunity to point out that we aredeveloping a vision for our connunity that includes strongneighborhoods, a rnix of land uses and preservation of our wetlands,water guality and tree cover. I am hopeful that these cornnentswill renain when the story is aired some tine around uay 8th. Ifthe story does air on l{ay 8th, the tining could not be better sincethis approxiurately the sane tine that the Metropolitan council wiIIbe review j-ng our p1an. REVISED APRrL 11, 1991 Adoption by cc L/27/9t -Delivered to Metro Council 2/25/9L . In review with Council staff. on Met 3. 1995 Study Area (South) OTHER ITEMS 1, Blending ordinance 3.*Bluff Protection ordinance 4. * sign ordinance 1995 Study Areas - Work effortto begin after adoption of newcomp P1an. Council is requesting that this be conbined rrith a Ilr,ry. 5 corrj.dorstudy deveLoped by a joint PC/ CCrl res ident/develoPer task force. Joint P?/?C/HKAcorridor Bus Tour to be scheduled June, 1991. Inactive staff directed to develop scenarios - Iow priority Staff directed to draft apotential new zoning districtordinance. Fish & Wildlife and DNR have agreed to expand refuge boundary to include all land lying south of Hwy. L69/2L2. sunmer, 1991/position paperreviewed by Planning Conniss ion. has requestedof work on new Tree Protection ordinance Mapping of significant vegetative areas un'DNR undertaking accelerated napping progran and will workwith city to develop. Newordinance/spring/sunner, L991 5 ONGOING ISSUES Comprehensive Plan fssues 1.* conprehensive Plan 2.., 1995 Study Area (North) and Hwy. 5 Corridor Study 2.* Rezoning BF Dist. to A2 STATUS Inactive/CC acceleration ordinance. 6. Rezoning 2l Acre Lots to RR 7. wetland ordinance 8. * Definition of structures 9. Shoreland Ordinance 1,0. :tf'lood Zone Ordinance L2.* Zoning ordinance Amendnentfor satellites onRecreational Beachlots L3.Structures below OHIiM nusthave a city pernit. ordinances pertaining toantenna torrers. agenda Budgeted noney for update 2year tinefrane or storn waterutility fund - Reguests forProposals uere sent toconsultants on ![arch 18, 1991. Expect to have a contract by June to initiate progran. Ordinance change adopted by Ccon April 8. In January we receivednotification from the MnDNRthat lre are a priorityconntunitywitha2year deadline Approval byofficially Currently active. l,tnDNR and pub l ished. L6. Landscaping standards PUD ordinancecontaining inprovedstandards 19 91l inactive Issues roemo presentedPC - llarch, 1991 Consideration by pC llarch, 1991 Inactive City request to elininatenininun lot size reguirenentshas been subroitted to MetroCouncil. Approval is expectedby late April. Ordinancerevisions required. PC review 3/6 - to CC forreview on 4/22/9t. 14. 17. to L1. Group home ordinance Schedule futureSpring, 1991 15.* Rural Area poLicies -ordinance changes stenming 18.Pc input in Downtolrn Planning and Traffic study l-9.Review of Architectural Standards to Pronote High Quality Design. * change in status since last report L99L/ongolng 19 91 CITY OF EH[NH[SSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE . PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739 },,EMORANDIN,I TO: Planning Cornrnission FROl,l: DATE: SUBT: PauI Krauss, Planning Director April 11, 1991 Presentation on the Bluff Creek Corridor Perry Dean and Eric Roth grew up in this area and over the years became intirnately faniliar with the BLuff Creek Corridor. Theyhiked the corridor on numerous occasions each year and have done sofor a number of years and have becone extremely knowledgeable aboutthis sensitive and irnportant natural resource. They approached Todd Hoffman and lnyself recently inquiring as to the possibitity ofcity involvenent in protecting the corridor. we informed them thatthe City Conprehensive Plan does indicate a goal of creating anatural trail corridor in this area and inforned then about whichIand had already been obtained. They offered to qive apresentation and slide show to both the Planning Commission andPark and Recreation connission on the corridor and ultinatelyconduct a walking tour for those who are interested. Given the Planning Conrnissionrs recent discussions on blufflinepreservation, the Minnesota Va11ey Wildtife Refuge and open spacepreservation, I believe their presentation is quite timely. After discussing the matter with Todd, I hrould hope that we could arrangefor a walkj.ng tour on Saturday, l{ay 4th, if this date works out for everyone . CITY OF CH[NH[SSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739 },IEMORANDI'M TO: FROI'I: DATE : SUBJ : Planning Conmission Paul Krauss, Planning Director April 11, 1991 City Council coal Setting liteeting on saturday, April 6th, City Council net with staff to undertake afairly rrfree-fomrr discussion of goals and start work on creatinga vision of directions that the City should be moving in. I haveattached the information packet that rras given to the Council forthe neeting. Staff was asked to focus on 4 or 5 goals out of thosewhich department heads had prepared at the beginning of the yearjIn addition to goals that I have drafted for the city, I tooi theliberty of giving the city Council a copy of our ongoing issues1ist, Connission Chairnan Ennings was aLso in attendance. My opinion is that the neeting was highly successful in that itallohred good productive discussion in many areas. we hope thatthis is the beginning of an ongoing process there natters can beraised and discussed and thought through outside of the normalfonnalized neeting set up. The Council is highly supportive of thecreative undertakings that the Planning Commission has embarkedupon over the last two years. If anything, the word was toaccelerate our work wherever possible. councilnan Workman requested that the planning Corunissionaccelerate its efforts on developing a ne!, sign ordinance. He has become intinately faniliar vith the sign ordinance issue since onecurrent proposal involves his own business, however, he is also a downtor^rn business person and has been contacted by several othersv/ho have raised concern over signage. I fu1Iy agree that a nelrsign package is definitely required since our current ordinancegenerally raises nore questions than it answers. It is also a realfailure at ensuring that we get quality signage in our cournrunity.I do have a concern however, that staff is getting stretched fairlythin in our ability to take on major projects. Since we are notlikely to be able to put additional staff on given the currentfinancial situation, our tork program will have to be a juggling -Goal Settihg SessionApril l-1, 1991 Page 2 act. r would ask that yoi consider this linitation when we aretrying to layout our rrork progEam. The council is also very interested in pursuing the Hwy, 5 CorridorStudy. Councilnan Wing rnet lrith people in the Urban Design Studioat the University of Minnesota who proposed some j,nnovative concepts and expressed a willingness to work with the connunity.Staff is also working with the firn Barton Aschnan on design plansthat are going to be coordinated for the Chanhassen CBD $/ith Highway 5 construction and lre rrould like to involve the designer,Barry Warner, in this process. We agreed to organize a bus tour ofthe corridor whereby we can spend a norning driving up and down andwalking around sites lrith some design professionals. We would then come back to City HaIl and essentially try to develop a vision ofthis area which could then be sketched up and ultimately, put intoan ordj.nance. I will keep the Planning Comrnission posted on thismatter. CITY OF CH[I{H[SEEN 590 COULTER DRIVE. PO. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN; MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDT'I.{ TO: Iitayor and City Council FROM: Don Ashrrorth, City Manager DATE: April 4, 199L SUBJ: Goal Session, Saturday, April 6, See you Saturday. This past week, I sent out the proposed agenda for saturdayrnornj-ng. The Mayor had temporarily borrowed ury departrnentalrevie{goa1 fil-es and the following enclosures rrere not lbJe to beput into that packet. I apologize for the short review tirne thatthe Council will have. Fortunately, Dost of the departments willbe walking do$/n through these as a part of their individualpresentations. The Mayor had asked.that each departrnent rank theirgoals showing what each departnent considered to be their mostirnportant goals. The first sheet in the attachnent represents thatcombined list. Behind that sunmary is the conplete list asoriginally subrnitted by each departnent. ft is impbrtant to notethat these are tentative goals as seen by each department. Thepurpose of this meeting is to ensure that these goals coincide withthe goals of the City Council. 19 91 . AGENDA CITY COI'NCII, GOAL SESSION SArURDAI, APRIL 6, 1991, 7:30 A.U. CHANHASSEN PIRE STAAION, 7610 IAREDO DRTVE (USE REAR ENTRY} 8:15 .- 10:30 a.n. 10:30 a.n. 10:30 - 12:OO P.D. 12: OO p.D. rake-up Breakfast/Coffee (qptional) llayor t Evlanager ' E G/erniew: - obJ ective of GoalB l{orksession - Tinetable - ProceEs - Ranking* Whenr nhere Presentation of Prel luinary DePartnent Goa1s (ParkE,/Engineerlng/Etc. ) Break Iong Range coala, Ranking & hrture Agendds Lunch (optional) t ,: I t E.fI --..- - - 7:30 a.n. 8: 00 a.Il. 1 3 4 1991 PRIORIITY GOALS BY DEPART}IENE"ttARcE, 1991 ENGINEERTNG Surface water Utility: Proceed t ith consultant selection andirnplementation of the \rater quality and Chapter 509 Surfacewater Management PIan eLements of the utility district.Support Finance in calculation of fees for inclusion in thequarterly bill-s and review any appeals. Pavement Manaqement: conplete processing the results of the pavement inventory which was conpleted in 1990 and prepare forCouncil approval of a funding scenari.o and rehabilitationstrategy for all city owned paveDents. Uniform Traffic Control Instal-lation: Institute and promotea policy of uniform traffic control installation includingsignage and pavement rnarkings as governed by the ITIMUTCD. conpLete a city-hride sign inventory and make necessary changesto comply with the l,llIUTCD. Plattinq/Developnent Support: I{ork uith the Manager's officeand Planning Department to provide engineering input onprelininary pl-at and site deveLopnent proposals in a tirnelyfashion. Revamp the policy for the use of consultants onprivate developrnents, i.e. go to a pool concept wherein thecity Engineer's office deternines a list of acceptable consultants for developers to use. Any consultant not on thislist would not be aIlolred to do uork in the City (public or pr ivate ) Downtown Traffic: Complete and inplement the approved reconmendations for resolving the downtown traffic issues,i.e. signals at creat P1ains Boulevard and Laredo Drive. Public works Public Relations: Continue the public alrarenessprogran to pronote citizen awareness of public vrorksactivities and services, perhaps by holding a public worksrodeo in concert rrrith the state and/or other local event inconcert with National Public Works Week. PARK AND RECREATION DE PARTI,TENT Coordinate the design and construction of the Lake Ann park Pi cn iclRecreation Shelter. Conpletion of the Lake Susan Park inprovenent prograrn. 5 1 2 3 Coordinate the first phase of construction at Herman Field Park. 6. 4. Coordinate the initiaL phase of park construction at Outlot G, Lake Susan Hi1Ls. Pl-an for the tinely developnent of the rernaining outlots E, F and G. 5. Pursue outdoor recreational grant programs and other available sources of natching funds to augment the park acquisition and developnent fund. PUBLTC SAFETY 1. continue developing effective delivery of aninal controlservices to the neighboring cities pursuant to the animalcontrol contract. 2. Provide community education in such areas as crime prevention,drug prevention, traffic safety and fire safety. 3. DeveLop my cornrnitnent to effective communication uith the CityManager, Mayor and City council, Public Safety Comnission and . city staff. 4. Provide opportunities for E\rblic Safety staff to continue todevelop in the areas of professional growth, includingaddressing the issues of enforcenent style, knowledge oiapplicable 1aw, and abil.ities to lrork with City personnel andcitizens. PLANNING DEPARTUENT 1. Complete the Conprehensive plan approvaL process by gainingits adoption by the Chanhassen City Council and ty theMetropolitan Council . Begin plan inplernentation. 2. Initiate work related to the Surface l{ater tlanagenent progran. 3. Establish the Chanhassen Senior Conmission and begin work onsenior issues. 4. Inprove code enforcenent on zoning related issues. 5. Initiate Highlray 5 Corridor Study as required by City Councilcondition to Conprehensive plan approval. : - FINANCE DEPART}TEIIT 1. obtain and install a new payroll system that will be moresuitable to our needs. 2. Finalize systenatizing of network syster and conpleteconnecti.on for all working departnents 3. Conplete instaLlation of property inforrnation manager0entsysteu. 4 5. Investigate processing alternatives for the financial accounting and utility bi11in9 systens in an effort to reducethe current vulnerability Ieve1s. Establish tighter collection procedures for delinquent utilitybilIs to protect the city fron further losses to bankruptcies, etc . CITY OF EH[I{H.[$SEN UEit{ORANDUU TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager FROM: cary warren, Public works Director DATE: December 19, 1990 SUBJ: 1991 Goals and ObjectivesFile No. PW-221 L4J- The following Iist highlight.s the goals and objectives for thePublic Works Department for 1991: 1. Surface water Utility - Proceedl with consultant selection andimplementation of the water quality and Chapter 509 surfacewater management plan elenents of the utility district.Support Finance in calculation of fees for inclusion in thequarterly biL1s. 2. P4verqent Management pa veme nt lnven tory w - Complete processing the results of thehich was completed in 1990 and preparefor Council approval a funding scenario and rehabilitationstrategy for all City-owned pavements. C ompr ehe ns i ve Plann i nq - Support the Planning Department withthe completion of the Cqnprehensive Plan upilate. 4. Computeri zation - Assist with bringing on line and debuggingthe Cityrs new SCADA system for the UtiJ.ity Departnent. Continue to press for the conputerization of the Engineering and Public works Departments, especially as it relates toinfrastructure mapping (G.I.S.) and data recording/retr ieval . 5 . State-Aitl lli lea Reimbursements - Work with MnDOT tors M.S.A.allocate unus State -A dm Ieage to the Citysystem. Further, see to it that all State-Aid reimbursementsaremaximizedandreceivedfromthestateinatime1yfashion. I lr-+ 690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX I47 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739 3 Don Ashlrorth December 19, 1990 Page 2 6. Plartin g,/Development Su ppor t - work with the t-lanager , s of f iceand Planning Department to provide engineering input onpreliminary plat and site alevelopment proposals in a timelyfashion. Update the City,s stanaard specifications anddetail plates. Revamp the policy for Lhe use of consultantson private developments, i.e. go to a pool concept $hereinthe City Engineerrs office detirmines I tist of icceptableconsultants for devetopers to use. Any consultant not onthis list would not be allowedl to do work in the City (publicor private ) . 7. Staffin /s ce Allocalion - Prepare five-year spaceutilLZationtransit i onis hired. plan for the Engineering Departnent. provide support in the interirn until a new City Engineer 9. Interdepartment C ommun I c ation/Cooperat ion -atmosphere of support and cooperation withdepartments.Encourage the "TEAU" concept. 11. Crack SeaI i n q Pr oqr am 10. Trunk HiqhEaf 5 ImpTovemenls - Review anil arrange for Cityapproval of Trunk Highway 5 improvements frorn Einnepin Countyline to_County Road- 17. A1"o,-arrange for City appio"ai ofthe staff-approved layout for Trunk nighway S iurpilvenentsfrom.County Road 17 to frunk Highway 4i. -OUtain-ttre-- ---' remaining right-of-entry forms in time such that the nextphase of Trunk Highway 5 can tre "let. on March ZZ, Lg9i. Foster anthe various City annual crack seal i ng 12. Water Util it - Acguire equipurent anil inltiate anprogram for the Cityis streets. and construct ltell No. 6 and1991. - Designfall ofservce by the place ln Ir.rf iltration/Inflow proqratn - Implement the third year of theCity's annual infiltration/inflow removal grogr:rm. Test thewaters concerning the ultinate elimi nation- of - clear watersources (sump pumps and foundation drains ) from the Cityrssanitary serrer system per Ordinance No. l9-130 and the itwCc'.waste water treatment anal handling implementation plan ().990- 2010). Continue to provide input to the }iWCC,si ncenti veldi s i ncenti ve I,/I polici. proceed with set ertelevising of the Cityrs trunk sanitary sewers lying in closeoroximity to the lake areas and other luspecti nf i l tration,/inflow areas . 8. 13. Roqdway Signage - Initiate an inventory system for documenting aII City-owned roadway signage. Work hrith pubLic Safety to sponsor a roadway signage workshop incluiling theCity Attorney's office to educate the pubLic Safety Commission and the City Council to achieve a uniform roadsigning policy in the City. 14. Downtown Traff ic - Complete and implement the approvedrecommendations for resolving tshe downtown traffic issues,i.e. signals at Great Plains Boulevard and Laredo Drive. 15. Pro'ject Mana geme n t - Specific projects which will beadministered from this office which are known at this timeare as follows: A. MnDOTts Trunk Highway 5 improv€ments, Hennepin Countyline to County Roail 17 and County Road 17 to Trunk Highway 41. Negotiate details of the cooperative agreements for the respective projects irith MnDOT tomaximize State participat.ion. B. Entrance monumentation and organization of the Trunk Highway 5 improvements between Great plains Boulevard andcounty Road 17. C. Trunk Highvray 101 Realignment, phase II (North Leg) -Design,/property acquisition. D. Lake Drive East from Dakota Avenue to DelI Road - Final . project closeout and assessnent. E. West 78th Street Detachment Project - construction. F. Minnerdashta Parkilay feasibility, design anil construcLion. c. Property acquisition antl design for 200,000 elevateilstorage tank located on Forest nidge Circle. H. Various private developnrent subdivision projects. 16. Accounts Payable - Process accounts payable in a tinelyfashion within 30 days of receipt. Review al1 invoices foraccuracy and appropr iateness . Don Ashworth December 19, 1990 Page 3 Don Ashworth December 19, 1990 Page 4 17. Proiect Assessments - Arrange for the adoption of assessment in time for the October 15,rolls for .the foLlowing projects I9 91 levy: A B c D Audubon Road South Project No. 89-18Frontier Trail Project No. 89-10 Country Hospitality Suites project No. Lake Drive East Project No. 89-6 89-25 18. publ,ic works public Relations -Continue the public a\dareness ktm c: program to promote citizen awareness of public worksactivities and services, perhaps by holding a public worksrodeo in concert with the State and,/or other local event inconcert with National public Works Week. Charles Fo1ch, Assistant City Engineer Dave Hempel, Sr. Engineering TechnicianKim Meuwissen, Engineering Secretary 1 Park and Becreation coordinator 1991 Goals January, 1991 Coordinate the design and construction of the Lake Ann ParkPicnic/Recreation Shelter. 2. Conpletion of the Lake Susan Park inprovement progran. 3.Coordinate the first phase of construction at Hernan Field Park. Facilitate the adoption of a master park plan for the Pheasant Hi11s area park. Coordinate the initial phase of park construction at Outlot c, Lake Susan Hi11s. Plan for the tinely developrnent of the remaining Outlots E, F and G. 5 4 t2. 13. 14. 15. 10. 11. 6 I 9 Coordinate the conpletion of the revitalization of Carver Beach linear park. Finalize the design and irnplernent construction of a pedestriantrail through the wooded region of Lake Ann Park. Tdentify land parcels west of Lake Minnewashta r.rhich would besuitable for neighborhood park purposes. Pursue outdoor recreation grant prograrns and other available sources of rnatching funds to augment the park acquisition and development fund. Create an rradopt a parkrr program rrhich Dutually benefits theCity and the organization adopting a park. Work with School District 112 in designing a naster park planfor City Center Park and coordinate the inprovement progran approved for this park as part of the 1991 budget. Facilitate a comprehensive study of all park facilities andcoordinate the repair, removal or replacement of itens foundto be unacceptabLe. Establish a play eguipnent inspection system for aII play areas or^rned and/or operated by the city. Develop and inplement a dedication cerernony for Lake susan Connunity Park. Assune a leading role in the preservation of the cityrs water resources. 7. 15. L7. 18. 19. 20. Nurture long range plans for the developrnent of a middleschool campus in Chanhassen. fncrease involvernent by civic organizations in special eventscoordinated by the departnent. Realize professional growth in the areas of providing guidanceto the Park and Recreation Cornmission, presenting park andrecreation items to the City Council and addressing the needs and desires of residents. cultivate departnental relationships to ensure the accurate and tinely delivery of agenda items. Provide the Recreation Supervisor and seasonal staff withleadership, direction and support. I 2 Increase NYSCA Clinics - more certifie(l . Continue to put out quatity brochures by contacting the necessary alepartments, civic aroups and athletic associationsin enough time to submit their information for publication. Provide umpires rrith more information on handling an eligi-bility protest at che fie1d. work with Don Schwartz in developing antl implementing the Umpire Coordination position for the 199I softball season. Develop a better understanaling with the Industrial League regarding the eligibility of players and the eligibility ofIaid-off workers. Develop a n er., rule making it mandatory for the umpire in a Co-Rec softball game to holtl onto the "other" softball rrhen it is not in play. 3 4 5 6 7. Create new features New social programs activities the 4th of pre -sc hool elernentary for for for JuIy antl a9e celebration. teenagers. children on their days I 9 Incr ea se of f . Design new activities for Discovery Playground. Improve ItliIfoil Education Program for gate attenilants through educational handouts and seminars. Develop open gyms for junior high ageil kiils. Increase involvement irith MRPA by reading 'Keepinq Upn antl volunteering for some special event. Implement nRookie League" Baseball Clinic. Implement after hours phone line for reference about scheduletlactivities; softball games, etc. L2. 13. RECREATION SUPERVISOR I99I GOALS 10. 11 . 14. 15. CITY OF CHANH.[EEEN 690 COULTEB DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 5531 7(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDLTM TO: Don Ashworlh. Ci ty FROM: Scott Harr. public DATtj: No v enrbe l jO, I$90 SUBJ: Goals & Ol:jectives This memo is to fol low upobjectives. I arn pleasedsuccessfully met and I am 1990 coals Manager Saf ety Di rector on our discussion regarding goals &to report that lgg0 goals have beenvery enlhrrsed to embark on lggl goa l .:. A1 tactrr:d pl ease f i rrd a copy of mybrief comnrents on each individual 1990 i t em: goals. Following are Our i:ode complainl & response procedures are runningbetter tlran ever. The ne* forms, record keeping, wir.k_ing ui tlr the Cily Atlorney, and computerization io tlreextet)t possible ulakes this system work consistentlywe I I . 2 Mark l-ittf in has more lhan met thetransi t ion to the posi tion of Firetinues to develop his knowledge andcombine to provide the City with aFi re Inspect i on,/prevent ion program, cri teria to make theMarshal. Mark con- confi dence, uhi ch mos t professional J Even vith a personnel change within the Building Inspec_tion.Department, we have met our goals of conti;"i;;'i;provide quality i.nspection ser.vicis to the comnuni t!.Each of the inspectors has grown pnofessionally, "nithis has evidenced itsel! Uy tfre iuality and quantityof work being accompt ished by them. Personnel issues continue to be addressed with allPubl ic Safety personnel. Departmentat meetings, educa_tional seminars, and in-house training opportunities arebeing used to improve the professionalism of the depart_men t . 4. .D0n Ashworth November .30, 1990 Page 2 Efforts to work with the Southwest Metro Drug Task Forcehave paid- off. tremendously. Because I har. spent theyear as the Administrative Liaison for aII of the citiespart i cipat ing in the Task Force, together wi th CarolDunsmore's wi l r ingness to provide s!cretarial "".ri."" tothe Task Force, there i.s no doubt it.i-in. City ofChanhassen has had a great deal of attention from theTask Force. 6 1991 1991 promises to be an excitirrg y."" because all factors are posi_t i oned to enabl e us to provide*qi.raiitV-p"Uf ic safety senvicesmore effieienrty and positively'tfran lvlr before. ;.;;;.uoi" 'n,departmental organizaiionat plln ""il.iii.a-i;";;; ":::;irJl",n"Public Safety Department i= ."t *f,"i-i-i"r r"r" to be ,,fullstrength". while r prepared the issi [Jac"t .or,r.I""iir.tr. , aol:ii:,. rhar we witl-have th.;;";;;;eI-a"ailable ro do th; job 7 Personnel growth- and development have been imporlantissues that have received significant aitentionr p&r_ticularly during the pist 4 ionths. Altitudes,'siyles,techniques and knowl edge are areas thai have beenaddressed, wi th successful results. The -communi ty Service officer program has arso continuedto develop, and can be said to be a fully acceptedProgram now. In fact, it was interesting to note thatwhen one CSO was ciut for some time, we actually receivedcomplaints from the Sheriff's Departmeni b"."ri" theyhave become increasingly reliant on it"'".""ices ourCSOs provide. la, i th the resignation of Jim Chaffee, efforts have been T.d:- tg address al I duties that had'previously beenhandled by both of us. In addition,'i have sought todevelop an organizational .pp"o."h'it.t"*ill permit tlreconsol idation of t.hese_positions. A departmental planhas been submi tted to the Ci ty Manager]'"1tt, a revisetljob description for public saietj n?i"lto" having beendeveloped. .Ds.n Ashworth November 30, 1990page 3 I WOUI-D LIKE TO SUBMIT THETIVES FOR THE NEW YEAR: FOLLOWING SPECIFIC GOALS AND OBJEC- 1 Development of an emergency management plan for lhe Cityof Chanhassen. The emphasis will be on developi,ng asy-stematic approach to effectivery utirize the services.l t!: various agencies that provid" prbtic safety tothe City. I witl be working ctosely ritn tf," Fire Chiefto-develop a plan that will develop thiough thef ol lowing stages.: De ve I opmen t Cooperal ive Planning Coordinat ion Educal i on of Those Involved Practice Impl ementat ion Response tt a t( t This emergency management planning will include not onlydefining the roles of City Staff ind political ".p".".n:tat ives, but will also include the development of for_mats that will enable these individuals to maintain anawareness of their responsibirities. AIso incruded wirlbe the development of a complete listing of resourcesthat could be called upon to respond in t iure of need. I will not ignore the,.f act that this Depariment will continue tohave to "prove itself ',. Frustraii"""-iL=ufting from variousfactors have made things itifficuii-;;"'us all. Theref or.e, aprimary goal will be to build upon it" po=itiue, address-it'redif f icul ties, nhi l e emphasizing' the -"oop"".tive spi ri t in meet ingour work ass i gnment s. 111:1," have.a,f ready been made to reprioritize issues and tolncrease positive communication. Hopefully, the "or,"oiia.iio., ofthe positions of Director and Assitant oi"Lcto".f t;;ii"-i"r"tv,together with my active. support of ir,e police contract, -iii resultin many of tbe issues that caused aiif i'cutties in the past simplybeing el iminated. Don Ashworth November 30, 1990 Page 4 Continue consolidation of the Assistant Di rector/Di rectorresponsibilities. This nill include relying on stafflo a greater degree in order to meet such goals asthose surrounding code enforcement programrning. I plan to be building a relationship with the FireDepartment that has not been accompi ished to the pointthat I think it should be. I nitl be developing aworking involvement with the Fire Departnent, ai uellas providing tnope availablility to City HalI for them,while developing incneased coumunicat ion uith them.Attendance at deparlmental Deetings, frequent Deelingswith the Fire Chief, and involvemint nith the depart:ment are critical aspects of this goal. Cont inue developing effective del ivery of aniroal controlservices to the neighboring cities puisuant to the animalcontrol contract. Provide in-house training to staff in such areas asfi rst aid and providing inforoat ion to staff on lrow toprovide information to the authorities in the evLntthey witness an accident or see something suspicious. Schedule meetings with the various agencies that providepublic safety services to Chanhassen in order to a.r"iopcommunication, clarify needs and expectations, and help'individuals become betten acquaintea between agencies. J *4 5 Provide vention, safety. comnuni ty education in such areasdrug prevent i on, traffic safety as and crioe pr e-fire *8 10. Develop my commitment to effectivethe City Manager, Mayor & Counci I Commi ss i on and Ci ty Staff. communi cat ion wi th and Publ i c Safety Safety Staff to con-profess ional growth,of enfo.ceEent s tyl e,abilities to worl with public commun i ty Depar tDen t Prov i de opportunities for publictinue to develop in the areas ofincl uding addressing the issuesknowl edge of appl icable la*, andcity personnel and citizens. Assist in increasing the awareness ol theregarding public safety resources in theirthrough the Public Safety Open House, FireOpen House and Metro Public Safety Day. z b. r( 7. * 9. 11, Continue to respond to the public safety needs of thisgnowing communi ty, as well as to respond to the direc_tives of the Ci ty llanager.. * These are items that.I think would be particularly appropriate toaddress at a council/staff rorkshop. CITY OF CH[NH[SEEN 690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 }.{EMORANDT'III TO: FROU: DATE: SUE]: Don Ashvrorth, City tltanager Paul Krauss, Planning Director December 17, L99O 6L 1991 coals for the Planning Departnent fn formulating the Planning Departnent rs goaLs for 1991, Iconducted a review of goals that lre had established in 1990.followi-ng constitutes a review of these goa1s. Complete the Cornprehensive Plan, hearing process and subnittal .to the Uetropolitan Council for review. first The 1 Work on the . CoDprehensive plan involved an extraordinaryamount of tine on the part of staff and the planning Conmission. The tine rras spent not only in drafting of theplan, but in an extensive round of meetings rrith individuals,developers and neighborhood groups that culninated in thefinal public hearing that was held in earLy Novenber, 1990.As you are alrare, the plan is going to be presented to theCity Council on January 7, 1991 and it is our -expectation thatit would be forwarded to the Uetropolitan Council shortlythereafter. Work on the plan took sonelrhat longer than we hadanticipated, largely due to the tirne required to obtain publicinput. However, f believe that the docunent is a go6d oneand, perhaps more iurportantly, it appears to have beenaccepted by the !0any individuals rrho have been involved in theplanning process. Embark on a coordinated wetlands protection prograrn. Staff set this goaL in 1990 recognizing the need to inrproyeour wetlands protection efforts. During the course oi theyear, tlro significant factors occurred. ihe first was that itbecane clear that rrater quality is a grohring issue for ourconnunity-. Not only do we want to naintain water guality forour residents, but it has becone a prinary issue foi theMetropoLitan Council and other state agLncies-. The second was 2 Mr. Don Ashworth Decenber 17, 1990 Page 2 that there would be benefits accruing if the storm uaternanagement elenents being considered by the EngineeringDepartnent could be coordinated with the uetlands and wateiguality prograDs that were being discussed by the planningDepartEent. Throughout the course of 1990, planning andEngineering Departnent staff worked together to formula-te anapproach to these issues. This approach culninated in theproposal and adoption of the surface r.rater utility district.!{e believe that this district represents a highly- innovativeand cost effective neans of approaching this issue that wi1lput chanhassen j.n the forefront of environmental and waterguality protection. I have also interacted extensively withthe !.tetropoli.tan Council, the DNR, pCA and other ag6nciesrelative to water quality issues stemming fron probleis vithlhe l{innesota River. This has culminated -in ny beingappointed to a Hetropolitan Council Task Force designed t6investigate hrater quality issues in the Hinnesota- niverwatershed and develop a comprehensive plan for improving the.aquatic envj.ronnent. I beiieve ttrat tuis lrork tias ..€ tn"stage for some compLex, but neverthel,ess exciting andL'arranted work in 1991 and 1992. 3 Continue to respond to needs tothe Zoning Ordinance.upgrade, revise and improve conplete the changeoverrecycling.to hauLer sponsored curbside During 1990, staff developed a nurnber of new ordinances thathave been revj.ewed by the pJ.anning Connission, Board ofAdjustments and Appeals and City Couricil, most of which havebeen refined and adopted and are currentiy in effect. Anongthe nore significant ordinance amendm6nts includej ;comprehensive redraft of the c.ity's parking requirements, acornprehensive redraft of the city,s site pt-an r6view ,itir'"nernplasis on -improved quality of d6velopnent, a new gradinq andIlling ordinance drafted in . conju-nction wittr - iire 'ci[vAttorney, the interin use pernit oidinance designed to aeiiwith uses of a temporary nature, an'ordinanci aurenanenidealing with provision of access to lots by private d;i;;;;t;;and a nes, approach to_ reviewing variancei irrat is baaee ui,;;neighborhood standards. fn fict, over the course of fgio.nuch of the_ ci.tyts approach towards variance proceauier-tri!been revised lrith the result that the planning'a.rri;;i;; ;;;city councir now review and approve varianc-es .o"-"-.-.Ea -Io developurent proposals and the goird of ldjustnents;;tGG.i;considers variances dealing prinarily -wittr- sinli; -';il;i; hones. we have also iurproved internil proceduris for thLreview and tracking of developnent proposils. 4 The changeover uas conpleted in April of 1990 and has provento be highly successful. Uost of the credit foi tfre-s-tr"ng" Ur. Don Ashrrrorth Decenber ].7, l99O Page 3 5 staff support the Recycling Conroission has given should go toJo Ann O1sen and Shanoin Al-Jaff. partj,cipation in recyclingcontinues to inprove rrhiLe direct city costs for sponaorin;recycling have significantLy decreased as a result of the useof hauler based recycling collection. Continue to reorganize progrrams and procedures tocoordination with PubIic safety, Engineering andRecreat ion . Staff has spent considerable tine undertaking tasks relatingto this goal . I believe rre have established an excellentworking relationship with staff of both departments. One areathis is made evi.dent is the strong coordination between theEngineering and Planning Departnents in enforcing the newgrading and nining ordinance. Continue to be responsive to the needs of the City Council,Planning cornrnission, Housing and Redevelopment AutLority andBoard of Adjustnents and Appeals. inprovePark and on an 6 I believe that this goal has been reached and sril1 continue tostrive to do so. A nunber of new initiatives have beenoriginated by these bodies and have been foLlowed up by ourstaff and I hope that there is a high level of satisfactionthat staff has been responsive to these concerns. Initiate cornputerization of departrnental functionsincremental basis. 7 I elthough ue. have received hardware in 1990, the need tocoordinate acguisition of softrrare and netrrorking capabilitiesrequired to inpleneht this goal have lagged. we aie lookinqforward to working rrith the Data Processing Coordinator during 1991 to undertake this inportant rrork and improve utilizationof staff and equipnent. Adopt anendnents to shoreland and fLoodplain ordinances inresponse to new DNR regrulations. Staff has prepared a revised floodplain ordinance and hasrecently discussed it with the Planning Commission. We expectto bring it to the Planning Comoission and City Council- forfontra1 adoption in ;fanuary, 1991. The DNR shorefandregulations have proven sonewhat nore involved than originaLlyanticipated. The DNR has not yet set a date for Chanhassen tocomplete their updates, although we believe this procedure isironinent. The shoreland ordLnance is somewhat nore involvedand affects a nueber of properties in our corununity. t{e lrou1dIike to work rrith DNR to obtain substantial changes in the Mr. Don Ashworth December 17, l99O Page 4 existing .ordinance that reflect Chanhassenrs devel.opmentpattern. The following are the 1991 goals for the planning Departnent. 1 Complete the Comprehensive Plan approval process by gainingit's adoption by the Chanhassen City counciL and by theUetropolitan council . Begin pl.an inplenentation. Work on the plan is now drawing to a cLose and it is expectedthat the City council will .authorize sending it to theMetropolitan council in January. We have alwafs naintainedthat . the Metropolitan Council approval process couldconceivabJ.y be as difficult as the plan developnent r^rasinternally since there are a nunber of technical and politicalvariables that nay crop up. I have spent an vast imount oftine over the last 1t years worklng extensively hrithMetropolitan Council staff to uncover any problens bef6rehandand hopefully work then out, but it is difficult to say withany certainty that this is in fact the case. As a foLlor.r-up rrork effort, the planning cornnissi.on hascomrnitted to undertaking an analysis of the -two rstudy areasfidesignated by the p1an. These studies will essentially benini comprehensive planning efforts. l{e.are not certai-n iftime will allow starting this prograr0 in 1991, but the workwill need to be initiated in fgge at the latest. Initiate work related to the Surface Water }tanageDent progran. ..Staff has- been very active i.n developing the cityrs surfacewater utility ordinarce and progran. No; that rre -have gottenover. that hurdle, RFps need to be developed and consuitantsretained so that ue nay undertake the planiing portion of iniiwork. It is envisioned that an RFp witl be- d-eveloped ana iconsultant selected durJ.ng the first quarter ot 1991.Although further discussi-on is reguired, it is f.ik;Iy ah;isubconmittees or task forces nay need to be as=enUitaconprised of City Council, planning Conmission ""d ;;aG;;irepresentatives to undertake and complete these studies. it i"is viewed as an extensive work efto-rt that wili;;;;;;;";-';i.least-the next tuo y?:rsr. wittr lnplenentation t.gfir6;ilth.second year and following yearl. staff has -courmiftEa -io giving ltq city council.- annuar reporti ;; ;;;;-.;-..;;gpportunities to revieir annual work piograns to iolicit theirinput. Establish the Chanhassen Senior CoEnission and begln rork onsenior issues. 2 3 4 Mr. Don AshvJorth December 17, L990 Page 5 5.'Conputerize Planning Departnent functions. In 1990, staff contracted and completed rrork on the CDBGfunded senior needs study. As a result of this study, thecity Council created the Chanhassen Senior Conrnission inNovenber, 1990. During 1991, it is staffrs goal to establishthis commission as a functioning entity, develop an agenda andundertake yrork related to senior needs in our community.Exactly what focus this wilL take is uncertain at this pointin tine. fmprove code enforcenent on zoning related issues. In the past. code enforcenent relative to zoning code relatedissues has been difficult to undertake due to excessive work1oads, prior staff comlitments and the fact that there weresirnply too nany other brush fires to put out. public Safetystaff has atteupted to fill this void in part with mixedresults. - The process whereby planning staff often vrorkingwith Engineering staff spends nonths hrorking on an issue onlyto then transfer it to another department for enforcernent ha!proven to be unrilieldy and difficult to undertake. tle findthat the process and not the individuals involved hasoccasionally resulted in I'the ball being dropped'r or erraticenforcement procedures. Therefore, I have discussed thismatter with the Public Safety Director and the City Managerand would anticipate setting up a procedure whereby ttre publicsafety system of nonitoring cornplaints is adhered to foradninistrative purposes, but that pl-anning staff beconesdirect).y responsible in all stages of code enforcementrelative to issues pertaining to our departnent. 6 Staff continues to have a goal of cornputerizing staffdepartnent functions to prornote efficiency and bettei use ofresources. Our ability to do this is sonewhat hampered by theneed to coordinate these prograns effectively with otherdepartments and with the city's Data processing. Coordinator.There is also a cost involved that may ba significant,however, this is not clear at this point since rnuch of thehardware. already exists. Staff will continue to push forconputerization of property records and other elenen€s of useto departmental functions. Continue to respond to needs to upgrade, revise and improvethe Zoning Ordinance. This is an on-going goal that I an sure will not be eliurinatedin the near future. The planning Cororaission has establishedan. on-going issues list that I have attached as back up tothis rne:no. Itens that they have asked us to undertake in iggo l'1r. Don Ashworth December 17, 199 0 Page 6 incl,ude: 1) researchiitg rural area zoning standards includingpossibly lowering lot sizes to one acret 2) wetlands ordinanceredrafting in conjunction with the surface water utilityr 3)shoreland ordinance i 4) review ).egislation and poslibleordinance amendroents pertaining to group honesi 5) revier{,ordinances pertaining to the BF district which occurs onHighway 169 near the [innesota River. The planning Conmissionis considering revising or elininating this district toprotect the sensitive environmental features of this area.work on this progran was initiated under the cornprehensiveplan rev j.ew progran. 7 Staff would like to initiate a cornprehensive redraft of thecityis PUD ordinance. We believe that the current pUD ordinance provides frankly too huch latitude for developersand not enough standards or g,uarantees for the conmunity-. Continue the cityls active involvement in transportationLssues. The Planning Department provides staff support forMetro Transit. We expect to continue to do this indo not envision any significant additional workloadarea. We would like to vork with Southlrest Metro tpark and ride facilities in our co'rulunity. Southwest L991,, buts in thiso improve Planning and Engineering staff have been working with aconsultant to undertake a revj.ew of dorrntorrn translortationissues. we expect to conplete this report in iggf andundertake an inplernentation progran that is phased in-accordance with its recornmendations. staff worked with Carver County and other cornmunities on theEastern Carver County Transportation Study. This work hasbeen completed in 1990i holrever, there is a need to continuethe transportation focus and respond to issues that becaneknown and understood during the study. Staff will be workingwith the.county Engineer and other n6ighboring "o..""iii..-"ithese natters in 1991. Continue to refine and inprove our city recycling prograR. The -Recycling Conmiss_ion has reached a point where they are inneed of renewal and focus. During- 19s0, the co:rnmitteeundertook substantiaL work and acconplished a Iot with thesr./itch over to hauler based recyclinf. In 1991, there is aneed to focus on the recycling oi additional"l"riif "including.plastics and s_preaEing itre benefits "r i."V"ii"g-tonulti-fanily housing and conmertial properties. a Mr. Don Ashhrorth Decenber 17, 1990 Page 7 9 Continue to refine and iroprove city procedures relatj,ve todevelopuent. Strive to naintain and improve Chanhassenrs iuage as a progressive coumunity tbat sets high standards fordevelopnent. Maintain good uorking relationships trithdevelopers and brokers and ensure that residentrs concerns areheard in the review process. In 1990, staff proposed and had approved an ordinancerequiring the posting of notification signs on sitesundergoing review for developnent. This vas done to inprovecoronunication with area residents ai to r.rhat the city wasreviewing. Staff is on the verge of acquiring these signs andlrill undertake the establishnent of a progran for their use bydevelopers in 1991. The City CounciL has asked staff to undertake an analysis ofthe potential of charging developers for staff time undertakenin review of their developnent apptication. I have developeda questionnaire uhich has been nailed to a nunber of aieacorumunities to find out their policies in this area. I expectto be able to corne before the city council with areconmendation to investigate the adoption of these fees j-n 1991. In a related natter, it is also necessary that the citj,review and update the fee structure for all planning retateiactivities. f have noted a problen in the filing of p1ats, conditions ofapproval, variances, hretland alteration pernits and relatedmatters at Carver County. Our procedures to this pointgenerally place full reliance on filing of the appropiiate-docurnentation by the applicant. This has resulted in lack ofcity control of many of these aspects and a lack ofcoordination where easeDents and other require:nents that wereintended to be filed against the property ultinately were not.Most communities assume responsibilities for filing of thesedocunents to ensure conplete control over this aspect of thereview. procedure_. Staff has spoken to the City Councilregarding this lssue in the past and in 1991 eipects toestablish a procedure whereby the City Attorneyrs ofiice wi1l be held responsible for these activities. The City Attorneyrstirne to undertake these procedures wilt be billed back to Lheapplicants in the forn of a revised fee structure. 2 3 ONGOING ISSUES A,Dendrents to IIIUSA Boundary Future Use for Areasoutside the HUSA Boundary Zonino Code Amendnrents 1. Blending Ordinance 2. Rezoning BF Dist. to A2 Sign Ordinance (1ow priority) REVISED DECEMBER 5, 1990 STATUS' Staff directed to deveJ.opscenarios - Iov priorlty Scheduled Discus s ion/S ta f fdirected to draft a potential new zoning district ordinance -ulnter, 1991 Reconnended for approval by pC on lo/24/9o - Adoption by cc12/90 - FuI1 inplenentationSpring, 1991 Adoption 12190 1995 Study Areas - Work effortto begin after adoption of new CoEp Pl.an Inactive Inactive agenda Ongoing - CUptE conpleted l{inter, 3 4 ( Tree ordinance - Drapping ofsignif icant vegetative areas -Rezoning 2l Acre Lts to RRDistrict Other ftens 1. colrputerize land use files,pemits, conditlons andexpiratlon dateB on aparcel by parcel basis Staff processlng a posltionPaPer to revier, wetlandordl,nance and enforcenentBudgeted Doney for update 2y.ear tiuefraEe or stofu waterutillty fund 3 Definition of structures Shoreland Ordinance 1991 19914Sprlng, Conprehenslve Plan fssues 1. coDprehensive plan Update Schedule futurellinter, 1991 2.Reappraisal on yetland i.ssues, ordinance andnapping in conJunctionwith storn water DanageDent and uater quallty plan CITY OF CH[NH[SEEN 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN;M|NNESOTA5S3.lT (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 ME},IORANDUI,' DATE: February 5, 19 9L TO: Don AshHorth, City.l1anager FROM: Jean l,leuwisseD, Treasur er 2 3 fi1/ u 21il /11 4"""-,j f'-r'' 9* iL ^.r / Tom Chaf fee, Data processin Coordinator SUBJECT: 1990/1991 coals and Objectives Revrewing the immediaLe past year always provides enlightenmentsometimes even a little humor. ]990 his provided us qrlte a. bitthe former but as usua}, not a lot of the latter. a"'".-u*p""t.the leqislature continued to play games with our taxing .liiitymost importantly made nearly unreasonable schedule deminds on usregarding the budget process and truth i.n taxation. continued psonal medical problems added to our problems in 1990 u"l iis"enl ightened us of the importance of having and maintainrng-gooarecords and procedures as well as sharing responsibilitiel . oveaIl, 1990_was fairrv successfur but still Iu.re" i"o*-ioi-i.p.ou Tel!. Referring to our 1990 goais and objectives, we offer thefol l owin9 .status update: and oi d, but er- r e- s 0"h'r '?r^' ,)-1. I4e have established and are maintaiBing an excellentworking relationship and rapport with th" ,r"ro audiiorsand f inancial advi s ors . about thefund. Atthan this 2 possibility this time we and have tem- He held several meetings with our auditors and an outsideconsulting firm regarding a fixed asset managemeDt systembut re-prioritized the item because of time d-emands i"i.fi"eto more urgent projects. We have done Iittle more than talkof implementing a central serviceshave more items of higher priorityporari I y tabled further action. Don Ashworth, Ci ty l.lanager February 6, 19 91 Page 2 We managed tobut, when theplan effective system. ignore the rumblings about a Cafeteria plantime came to act, we implemented the currentJanuary 1, 1991 , using our existing payroll 4 As interest rates began to fall after the Middle Eastproblems started rn August, we decided to diversifyour i.nvestments and try to extend some better yieldsfor a hedge against possible recession and lowlr short-term yields. Using some valuable advice and guidancefrom our local bank, several brokerage houses andnumerous associates in the financial world, as well asour City Auditors, we have expanded our i.nvestmentportfolio and diversified our instruments. The endresult should return us close to 9t earnings on ourinvestments in 1991 when, at this writing, the short-term Treasury Bill is producing a net yitld of Iessthan 5t. The cfoA Distinguished Budget Award still is a desirablegoa1, however, not a high priority item. 5 5 We have gathered some informationmanagementi/retention but have yet regarding rec ordto activate procedures. 7 9 The Of f i.ce Automation System is in place at this writingal though not operational . Late in lggo we were able tocrack the nut related to file sharing with Carver Countyand subsequently converted valuable lroperty tax andvaluation data files i.nto usable ma cli.nl- reidab I e formats.Subseguently, we have established a link r.,ith our citi uii_lity billing file and have been using the combined data tobuild our files for billing related [o the newly cre;t.a ir._face Water Management District. Efforts are co;tinuing inthis area with the ultimate objective of creating dorniloadable files for use on our pC network by alt iepariment. The level- of sanity we have maintained is questionable. Theon-going blue smoke and mirrors game that ihe leglslature -- continues to play r.rith property taxes and local iou"i".."taids is about to come. to an abiupt and localfy a6".ri.fi"gend. Facing a potential deficit of in excess of $I billi6nat the state level is naturally going to place ,or. a.rn"ra"on us at the local level to reduce costs or increase taxes.we intend to continue to rnonitor regislative i"ti"iti."--i"'this area and even become more vocal, if possible. aboutfinancing at the state level that creates a potential threatto us and our citizenry. o. I Don Ashr,lorth, City UanagerFebruary 6, 19 91 Page 3 obtai.n and install a new payrollmore suitable to our needs. Comp I et e sys tem. Improve accurate years. Continue to monitor legislative actj.onsgovernment financing i ssues . Investigate processing al ternatives foraccounting and utility billing systemsthe current vulnerabi I ity levels. system that will be wi th remains dea I the financialin an efforL to reduce controls f or regarding I ocal Train and establish solid working relationshipyet another new auditor. (The city audit firmthe same however. we have personne-l changes towi th. ) Finalize systematizing of network system and compl eteconnection for aII working departments. installation of property information management Establish arbjtrage rebate/reporting system. annual budget process to provide more timely,projections of current year as well as future Establ j.sh and maintain more timely budgetaryalI ci ty departments. Establ ish tighter collectionutility bills to protect thebankruptcys, etc. procedures for del inquentcity from further losses to 1. 2. 4. 5. 7. 8. 9. 10. 19 91 coALS AND OBJECTIVES 1. Hwy. I01 1991 ADMINISTRATION GOALS ( COORDINATED WITH OTHER DEPARTIIENTS ) Relocation - Reach property owner agreements on acquisitions - Complete modification to Comprehensive Plan/Zoni.ng - Establish Highway Beautification Project (Hwys. 5, Lake Drive ) - Develop park plans - South LoCus Park with grading 101 I01 , ancl of Hwy. 2. West 79th Street Construction - Review Plans and Specifications for Uarket and Great Plains Entrances - Crossroails National Bank - request for extension of purchase agreement - Ha nus /Red-E-lt{i x,/Redeve lopment Con s i dlera t i on s 3. Downtown Objectives - Start construction of grocery/retail mall- Bus shelter location and drive lane expansions - Demolition of Chanhassen Lawn & Sports- Review overall transportation study for the downtown- Examine redevelopment efforts on $lest Village Heightsproperty, Burdick Palk, ward parcel , West 79th Street east of llwy. 101, and the Pauly/Pony/Pryzmus area- Redeveloping the south sicle of the Dinner Theatre 4. Finalize 1990 Goals (see attacheil accompl i shments ) . Examine the idea of a central park. Examine banner ilesigns, Christmas lights, etc. for downtown,City Ha11, major entrances, etc. Consider consEruction of a ner, l ibrary,/acqui s i tion of niddle school site. Make application for the NAHRO Agency Award of Merit in housing and community development. 5 6 7 8 February, l-99L TASKS COORDTNATED BY ADMINTSTRATION WITH ALL DEPARTMENTS 1990 ACCO PLT SHMENTS Successful Re fund incr . Savings 5600,000 Short terlIr. Est. Flexibility - 2.4 yti lr1id-tern 94-96 c1 ean A dit (Mai or tlork Effort - Ne w PeoDIe) Identifv Potential Budqet ShortfalI Earlv . No mass firings. No uprisings. No problerns following us into 1991 I'lai or Construction Year All projects closed onlbe1ow budget No surpr j.ses No bus iness/ne ighborhood uprisings Assessrnent hearings conformed to predictions, few conplaints P1a nninq Process s owed bv Ext a Plannino omnission He arl,nqs Public perceived Planning Comnission action positivelyFew'traiLroadtt conplaints PJ,anning cornrnission felt good, City Council felt good.Staff provided strong, but non-oveibearing gruidance. Personne 1 Pol icv Completed in-houseTypical consultive charge S2O, OOOAccepted by enployees 19 91 Budoet to S30,000 (saved) . More Council involvernent. Glitches resulted fron stupid laws, yet.. No najor uprising occurred.. Less than 5 people at final hearing.. No tax increase goal Det. Chanhassenrs strength lies in its future, i.e. no actions takenthat rtsaved face t-odayr, but at expe"=e'"f iir;'Hfi;"- -* Public Safetv . Suicessful transformation. Jints deceptions being disnantled - Health Coveraqes - Iinance .. Incl.usion of all.. Cornputer generat Expansion of mailin(assmt. hearings, p Via-Net hardware sp HRA . State 1aw requirements net. Typical.ly, this arena is a najor war.. Fights over Agent of Record.. I{hois low - Whors best!.. Enpl oyerlernpl oyee controversj.es.. Generally a lose/lose.. our win/win is now a nodel. State 1aw requireDents net. 9ity and enployees put S8,OOO each into their pockets (City'shigher recognition in-house acct. - see belowt Park and Recreation . Potential political problen de-politicized. Hoffnan doing great. Except for cannibal ization, departnent will becoroe the envy ofour neighbors. Lake Ann Expansion: Looks great. Lake Susan park Expansion: Looks great All bil}ings, reports, budgets, etc. stayed tinelyInproving investment yields a priority - which wa-s netConversion of County record.s to locaI-pc net (najor accompl i shnent )Cafeteria Plan adninistration taken on in-house (savings of$4,000 to $6, Ooo) No consultive payments made, yet major progranning changesoccurred, including:.. Autonated up/down loading of budget.. Accorurodation of new standards - arbitrage.. Changes in medicare deductions.. New requirenents on 1099rs parceLs - Water Surface Usageed biJ.lings - I{ater Surface Usageg address listing - all departnentslanning hearings, etc. )ecrd and purchasedG.L. process rnodified - Cafeteria plan Payroll process rnodified - Cafeteria pl.an County Record Conversion conpleted (ninj.num $3O,O0O savings -soL eLy) Pauly acquisition completed Ward property acguired (Uarket Roger Pauly acquired (building Loren Anderson noved (building North parklng 1ot constructionPryznus acquisition conpleted Blvd. ) denol ished) denol ished) - 90t coBplete on schedule.. 16 prop. right-of-entry.. Red-E-Mix, apartnent, Taco Shop acquisition on schedule - Hiqhway 212 . on schedule - Utilitv DeDartnent . Telenetry systen nearing courpletion. well No. 5 in operation.I&I.. 1990 contracted work conplete.. In-house correctj.ons conplete. Fet rrWater Banrt complaints - other Aqencies Sheriff's Departnent - Honelmoon Time! ! With Chaffee gone, even the police dog grins Minnetonka Conmunity Schools - Approxinately 1OO programs conpleted without problens (beach and soccer to be nonitored more carefully in 1991) Fire Departnent - See trsheriff ts Departnentl . Retirenentbenefit increase in 1991 needs significant attention. city Attorney - No conplaints. Strong dedicated staff r{ithapproxinately 6 professional attorneys doing the tork behindRoger. (Property acguisition/Abstract - Jin; Trial Lar,, -E11iott, Gary, Campbe1l, Ton [each having their ovnexpertisel ). This arena can best be Liken to nedicalprofessionals-hire a neuro-surgeon when you need one, but donrtput hin on your staff. Chaska Connunity Schools.. Major work effort required to provide equal access Hiqhwav 5 construction (184th to Dakota; Dakota to 17t L7 to 41) 690 COULTER DRIVE . PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739 MEI,lORANDT'III TO: llayor and City council FROl.l: Don Ashworth, City lIanager DATE: April 4, 1991 SUBJ: Other Itens for Discussion on Saturday, April 6, 1991 Eckankar Apple Va1ley Red-E-Ir{ix Water Service, Expanded MUSA Area 1991 Budget Cuts CITY OF EH[I{H[SEEN 1 2 3 4 The following items are anticipated to be discussed at Saturdaynorning's goal session. The enclosures show the same nunber aslisted below: -}r- (t*l*,-',t/'lL .. 1> {';7ir6 - //1 Da,t4,-// /ri.CI // zz'Ob*< {-g*-";-E-.?)6r Ft"r-l ,'tz/ ),.; ,r'Z/J.kl / /rr.,. Crn"z 4Z:; /c-le Mr%/) /*%z I ('7"**'r ,/ ' //2'1,.-- lo r&/4 47,az) 4{'o<,ru o /74 A x /r/ Z/" = 3/5 5aZ 7 / ,'L, ,r50-z' "=- 137 i,z,^a .. i7 //4 ,x /Zz4/- -rZ;_-*2,-, /-^_ / ?r') Qlt/ APPLE VALLEY RED-E.MIX 1. NEED DIRECTION FROM COUNCIL 2. HGI CHARGE - WORK WITH AVR . WILL WANT TO REMAIN 3. LOOKED AT 5 SITES/BURNSVILLE PLANT 4. PRELIMINARY CONCLUSION - PROBLEMS .RESIDENT OPPOSITION.ACCESS 5. ALTERNATIVES CONSIDERED (ADVANTAGES & D ISADVANTAG ES) 6. IF ''DO NOTHING" - ACCESS SOLUTIONS 7. CONTINUE STUDYTO RELOCATE? HOISINGTON GROUP INC. e / DYA 7 r L.: ,.9 \:, 5 it- a )o J.. oof}ol oor0 I) Y.\ Et IEaEoEEC,. itlrlE -t LLnI l i. !.lr rr lr _t_L f,o 9OOO _- ./- Elec. Substation '-r--:.o (' 7^ , I,, o -o \I \-lERIE AVENUE , 1 1I t \ a) z m- F - 1. \ oa C]TY OF CHANHA: c, =t4 OE oc -.{ro -l T xF] ov m m a{oo- =q (r1 c)at)7 7 T c) I I )r o 1 I\s-J-{a r I I I I I L\ 1/ It,. ,t:lN 8 N oC'I (D o Lg-l trl E ---) ( Jo oc -.{t-o-t m N ! APPROACH TO ACQUISITION ATTERNATIVE ADVANTAGES DISADVANTAGES - 1. ASSIST WITH RELOCATION MINIMAL FINANCIAL POSSIBLE RESIDENT OPPOSITTON EXPOSURE (X) 2. CONDEMNATION/ NO RELOCATION NO BESTDENT OppOStTtON MAXTMUM F|NANC|AL EXPOSUBE (>2X) 3. DO NOTHING NO IMMEDIATE COST FORACQUISITION CONTINUING VISUAL BLIGHT ACCESS CONFLICTS AT TH 101' .U TURNS .SAFETY -oR- POSSIBLE COSTLY ACCESS SOLUTTONS (.5X) HOISINGTON GROUP INC. I I 't I I I I I I I I I I 1 I t I I I I 3 CAMPBELL, KNL]"TSON, SCOTI & FUCHS, P,A. Attcrrrys at Law Thomas J. Gmphell Roger N. Knuts'n Thomas M. &on Gary G. Fuctr Jamcs R \Ihlson Elion B. Kncrch Grcgor' D L.wrs Dtrnis J. Unget RNK: Ern 16121 1569539 Fzx (6121 1%-%q2 lloveober 1, PeterJ ohn Declaratlon ofConditions, and Reatrlcti RE l{r. Gary l{arren Chanhassen City HaU 690 Coulter Dr5.ve, Box 142Chanhagsen, llinneeota 55312 Dear Gary: 1. fgmore the covenants and proc€ed *nowlng the rl.sks. 2. Pursuant to Article XfI of the covenante, aeek to havetheD anended to allou the uBe. Thl.e rould requl.reapproval of 9Ot of thc lot ourera. 3. Use the Cltyrs etrinent doual.n pouera to elluinate thecovenantB. you asked ne to revleu the above covenants to detemine ifthe'City could conEtruct ! vater atorage tank on properttgoverned by the coveDant8. Artlcle VI of the cove;anls piecludesyour proposed use of the property. ,Ihe City has threealternatives ! t , scgEl : .- .: t- III r-t & BY: .4. lf. Xnut8on cril0r#imssril Nov 0 3 t990 ffi0ilttn[{o DIPL Yankee Square Otrice Ill . Suite 202 . 34@ V/adringtcr Drive . Eagan, MN 55U2 l I ; 690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739 CITY OF + CH.lI{H[ESEN >* fi*t^*'*'tl'f 2 UE!,IORANDt,!,l To: llayor and city council FRoM: Don Ashworth, City lt[anager DATE: April 4, 1991 SURT: 1991 Budget Cuts The first reduction in our cityrs state aids/honestead credittotalled S56,000. The best guess is that a secondary cut t ill,occur before year end of approxinately the sanl anount.Departments have tentatively identified appioxinately g115,000 inbudgetary cuts. Each departmentrs present-Jtion of rs-9t goais wirlinclude anticipated reductions within their indiviaual -oleiatint area . \ UEIMANDOII{ !O: Don Ash{orth, City ltanager FRSI: Charles Folch, Assistant City EngirEet DATE: February 1I, 1991 SUBJ: 1991 Budget Orts CITY OF EH[NH[SEEN w dI70 4310 4370 4530 4703 {705 2,500 1,500 4,200 800 2,000 2,O00 -r,500 -1,000 -2,200- 300 -1,500 -1,215 -7,7L5 4,172 -7 t7l5 l,btor Fuels t Ilbricants Telephone Travel t Training Repair & l,laintenance, Equip. Office Equigent Othe! EquiIrEnt ,000 500 ,000 500 500 785 $115,725 I 2 Total Engineeringfotal l,let. Change llanago-r I s Reguired Ort llanagert s Preferred G.rt Total Engineering Assistant ineerr s CcftrrEnts ! Flrrd: General DepartrErts Public tbrks Function: I32 - Street ltlaintenance $123,440 Ihis was a challenging aclcount to try ard nrake a large share of the uonies allocared for thisthe 58 cuts , prunarl function are involved in prwiding city services and nEint€nanc.e reE)on-sibilities which city residents, the Mayor and @:ncil urembers eryect to beperfonEd. Second"ly, a nurber of the accounts have been bJdgeted to cperate at arDunts less than what $as operdea in 1990. I have discussed this rEtte! ingreat detail with Street Superintendent ilerry Schlerk. After extensive oon- sideration, r,e have fornulated a prqosal to rrEet the required 53 cut. ttte pri- ttEry Source for the furriing cut inrrol\res elirninating the proposed n€r'e, hiring in 690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937.5739 As requested in your nellD dated January 25, 1991, I offer the folloring reccrF Ilr3nded budget srts. ( Please note only the adjusted aclmunts will be listecl. ) Furri: Gerreral DepartrErtt: Public l{orks Function: I31 - Ergineering 1991 r{er 1991Ac.count Description Budqet Chanqe Re-EgtinEte the Street DepartrEnt for the ydar 1991. Funds allocated for the saLary ard benefits for this position totalled $32,L72. Yor will note that this is alpro:dfiate1y S7,500 rDre tltan that is required to be cut frcrn the hdget. Therefore, sore nonies have been atlded back in trc lrportant acclunts in orderto prinarily provide for the dust ctating service which rdas not perfonred during the year 1990. Account Account 4120 4260 4110 4030 4040 4050 {l-50 4300 ,000 ,600 ,000 ,000 39 22 2L 90 00 47 163, 061 20,178 20,0?g 22,5!0 35,000 8,547 Description Salaries & wages, Regular Coneributions, RetirsrEnt Contributions, Insurance WorlsrEn's Cotp. Irlaintenanc€ Materials Fees, Sewice Description Supplies, DguiFmert SnaU Iools t EquiFent Furd: General DepartrEit: Public t{orks Function: 137 - City Garage 1991 Budqet -22,4 - 2r7 - 3r9 - 3r0 + 5r0 + 2rs 24 25 30 6 1991 Budqet 185,500 22,900 2,000 2,500 Net Change $467,875 1991 Re-Estirat€ 1,500 2, ooo Total Street l,!a i ntenance Total l\iet Change Managerr s Required Cut Total Street !'ta intenanGg AccounE !ota1 Street Lighting E Sigrnals Total Net Change Managerrs Reguired Cut Total Street Lighting & SigrEls -24,525 -24,625 E\rrd: Geleral DepartiEnt ! Public Works Funstion: 135 - Street Lighting and Sigrnals 1991 Budqet t€r Chanqe 4L20 4300 4s50 4560 8, ooo i|,000 1,500 800 5 5 -) -$ - 4,000 - 1,000- 500 - 315 tibt Chanqe 81 81 5 5 $110,lt85 500 500 l{r. Don AshhDrth February 11, 1991 Paqe 2 r991 Re-Estinate 1991 Re-EstirrEte {,000 3,000 1,000 485 492,500 Description Supplies, EquiFEnt Fees, Servic€ Repair E Maint., Utility Signs E Signals $116,300 !,tr. Don Ashworth February 11, 1991 Page 3 F unction 137 - City Garaqe, Continued 4320 4350 4510 4s30 4705 Utilities Cleaning & Waste Rsoval Repair, l,laint., Blclg & Grd. Repair & Maint. EquigrEnt Other EguiFEnt - 2,000 - 1,500 - 500 - 1,000 - 1,000 I0,000 4,200 1,000 1,200 6,000 12,000 1991 Budqet llet Chanqe -s7,000 -$6,940 1991 Re-Estirate 5r 700 r,500 2,200 7,000 $r38,800 $131,800 Ftrd: General DepartrEnt: Pulclic hbrks Function 138 - Park llaintenanc€ Assistant City Engineer I s CcfirEnts: Ttris again was another very difficult areato determine wttich acclunts to decrease to trEet the required 5t cuts. orre of the problens erith this budgec is that nearly 80t of the total hldget is allo- cated for erployee salaries antl benefits. Assurring that there will be no IEr-sonnel changes in this departrEnt, re realistically have only 20t of the actual budget in which to make the necessary cuts. A 5t cut afil)unts to approxilately one-fourth of the actual rDrking budget area. Ihe inpact. to this fund is in a sense a 25S cut. Nevertheless, an effort nas nade to trlr and accorplish these cuts within the working 20S. This $as found to be a nearly fuipossible task sinc.e rnany of the accpunts have a 1991 hrdget less than that uas actuauy spertin 1990. At this point, I rrDuld like to present a prq)osal to ueet the 5S budget cut, which ancunts to appro:rimately $9,250, by shifting 20$ of DaLe Gregory's salary and benefits to the Park DevelogrEnt Furd 410. ltris aSpears to be it least a plausible apgrroach since DaLe does- spend an accountable airount of tfute working in the park develc[xEnt area. Bq€ver, I am crertainly not in t]leposition to detemdne the fj.nancial status of the t\:rd 410. Therefore, if thisis not an appropriate prqnsal, I rcu1d certainly be interestsed in ertertaining your thoughts on other nays to reet the required cuts for this lerdget iteur. Additional Revenue: city Engineer's salary (approximately 6 months) - $3o,ooo cc! Jean li€uwissen, Treasurer Jerry Schlenk, Street Super intendent Dale Gregory, Park Foreman Account Description Total Cj.ty Garage Total Net Change Managerrs Reguired Cut Total City Garage CITY OF EH[NIIIESEl{ 690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O, BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (512) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 ME}.TORANDI,Iil TO: FROM: DATE: su&f: Don Ashlrorth, city uanager Paul Xrauss, Planning Director February 19, 1991 00 Response to 1991 Budget Cut lIeDo The Planning Departnent often takes on new functions ulthoutnoticeable .increases in staffinE or expendltures. In the caae ofthe creation of the Senior Connission, ny origlnal budget requeEtto the Councll included a 53,000 annual allocatLon to iupport theSenior comnission. This uould be used to obtain periodi.ials and ure:nberships as approprlate Ln adctittoh to paying ior things likethe creation of neeting ninutes, nailings, etc. The City Councll appeared to be receptive to providing the requested S3TOOO niniDunexpenditure rrith the Uayor notJ.ng that this uas consistent with expenses for runnlng other connissl.ons. However, t[y final budget The Planning Departnent covers functions in the areas of Couununity Development, Recycling, Senior Conmission, Stom water Utility Program and Housing and Redevelopnent Authority. Unl.ike nany other departments, Lre have Little or no expenditure on eguipnent ogrnaterials. Virtually our entire budget is reLative to peopJ.e, witha rninor amount of funding allocated to support of these peopld. Therefore, naking cuts in a budget such as this is a fairlydifficult process. It is nade nore difficult by the fact that Ey 1990 budget was inadequate to Deet the needs of the departnent. fdid not have an opportunity to provide significant input into the 1990 budget and it rras based on a tlro person departDent rrlth theresult that in nany categories our 1990 budget was over apent. We note that simple things like office supplies and salaries rrere n6tfuIly allocated during 1990. it i= aitticult to qain a conprehensl.ve overvj.ew of the Planningbudget. we are attributable to a nunbe! of.prograns lncluding the HRA, surface l{ater Utility District and Recycllng funding. I onlyreceive conputer prlnt-outs of direct erpenditures under planning categories and thus aD not able to actively participate under theother headings. llr. Don Ashworth February 19, 1991 Page 2 included no designation for the Senior Connission and I an unsureas to where to place expenditures. This infornation is being reiterated to indicate that although IfulLy understand the need to cut expenses in light of the currentbudgetary situatlon, that I do not have a lot ol opportunlty to doit if we are to continue to assune the responsiiitities dhat wehave. As you are aware, I just got City councll authorization t-osignificantly increase our pemit fees for all sorts of developnent rev j.ew. Although actual developnent actlvity ls low at this point,the increase in fees will assure that rre viII obtain a reasonableanount of new funds that rrould otherwlse have been lost and vhichare directly attributable to projects. Proposed Buddet Cuts Revenue Oooortunltles During the early part of this year, ataff has undertaken tr,rosignificant initiatives that are designed to generate new revenuesfor the city. The first is that the Surface Witer Utility Dlstrictis now up and running and generating funds. In addition toacconplishing the goals estabfished for the district, the districtis going to absorb a percentage of staff tiDe that would otherwisehave been llsted as general expenditures. True, this reans thatstaff LrilL be undertaking adititional sork assignnents, but to datelre have not tried to expand the departDent staffingi so at thispoint it qua). if ies as ner., incone . Pund. 15J- - Plannino conhission: Virtually theCornraission budget Is used for paylng Ninntsexpenditures related to officlal publicationnaterials related to developDent revieus. Areguest of 9385 haB been nade as folloss: entlre PlannlngBalaty and forand nailing ofbudget reduction Fund 1991 Budoet $ 2oo 2.2OO Proposed Reductlon Edd B-&4 te reua ln low.shortfall Day 4300, 4340,S loo 285 Total Xeduction S 385 This reduction assurnes that developneit review reguesShould actlvity pick up later this year, a fundingexist. Se!:vice FeesPrinting t RrbliBhing S roo '11915 Fund 4130, 4370, 4703, Progran SuppliesTravel & TrainingOffice Equ lpnent Total Reduction 1991 ProposedBudoet Reduction $4,000 s3,ooo4,500 7501,000 5OO i4,25O Ed.d A&eL s1,000 3,750 500 Dlr. Don Ashrrorth February 19, 1991 Page 3 FUnd 152 - Plannind ACFini_stfation: Again, this is a categoryuhere approxinately 84t of the total expenditure is tor fixelsalary and benefit expenses. I do not viltr to cut out Dy traveland training budget entirely, aince I believe lt ls lnperative thatny-staff and f stay inforaed as to current prograDs and techriiques .affecting our departne4. ^ In adtdition, ry Eravel and trairiingbudget is not large. fbe S4,5OO which ias -been allocateil in the1991 budget equals approxiuately {t of roy overall budget ln thiscategory. f aD therefore propoil.ng the fbllowlng cutsi CITY OF EH[NH[EEEN 690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN; MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739 ME!,{ORANDT'III TO: Don Ashworth, City llanager FRoM: Todd cerhardt, Assistant Clty ltanager DATE: February 25, L99L SUBJ:- 1991 Budget Cuts Listed below are the proposed 1991 Budget cuts for Administration: 112 - Administration Proposed Cuts 40r.0-4050 437 0 113 - Finance 4300 114 - Leqal 4302 117 - Citv Ha11 Fees for Service Fees, LegaL Telephone I{aste ReDoval Insurance, cent. LiabilityRepair & !talnt., Bldg & GrndsRepair & uaint. , Equipment Repair & llaint., Radios Added Revenue froD Liquor Licenses Salarie Travel Benefitsraining s& &T $2, ooo S16, ooo 4310 4350 4483 4 510 4530 4 531 S1, ooo $1, OO0$ 5oo$ sooS 600 $ 4oo + s2 . 500 Total Proposed Cuts 930, 503 s5, oo3 $1, ooo CITY OF CH[NH[SEEN 690 COULTERDFTIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317' (612) 937-1900. FAX.(612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager FROM: Scott Harr, Public Safety Director DATE: February 5, l9 91 SUBJ: 1991 Budget Cuts Following please find ny 1991 budget cut recommendat ions: 126 -AN IMAL NTROL /C .s.o. Requi red cut ! REGULAR4 011 OVERT IME, SUPPLIES, OFF I CE SUPPL I ES, EQU I PMENT SUPPLIES, VEHICI,ES MAINTENANCE MATERI ALS BOOKS & PER I ODI CALS UNIFORMS & CLOTH I NG 4l 10 4120 4140 'l 150 12tO 4240 200 50 150 25 100 250 $ 3,59? 99? 1 ,000 50 25 200 100 200 100 100 50 t[300 /13 10 4330 4340 4360 4370 4440 4520 {531 FEES, SERV I CE TELEPHONE POS TAGE PRINTING AND PUBLISHING SUBSCRIPT. & T{EUBERSH I PS TRAVEL & TRAINING LICENSE & REGISTRATION REP. & AINT., VEHICLES REP. & MAINT., RADIOS 123 PUBL I C SAFETY I 3,597 COMMI S SION 4110 43?0 SUPPLIES, OFFI CE TRAVEL & TRA I N ING Requ i red cut: 3 55 100 _ 100 3 200 I r The additional 1145 cut from 123 - public be applied to 121 - Police Adoinistration.Safety Coomi ss ion ri I I Page 2 4703 OFFICE EQUIPMENTCarry over from Publ ic Commission's deduct i ons 121 POL I CE SUPPLIES, VEHICLES MAINTENANCE MATERIALS BOOKS & PER IODI CALS FEES, SERVICE PRINTING AND PUBLISHING TRAVEL & TRAINING REP. & MAINT., EQUIPMENT REP. & MAINT., RADIOS S IGNS AND S IGNALS DMINIST RAT I ON Required cut: a 22,477 The obvious difficulty with reducing r26 - police Administnationby 5* is that 3358,600 of this budget represents the contractfees we are required to pay to the Carver County Sheriff,sDepartment and the Southnest Metro Drug Task Force. Therefore, Ihave reduced the remaining portion of izr - porice Adninistrationby the required 58. Adjusted cut: I 4,sif 8 4140 4150 4210 100 500 100 4300 4340 4370 4530 4531 4560 1,255 300 1,{00 100 48 100 Safety 500 1{5I 4,548 125 CODE ENFOR EMENT This budget code section is difficult to meet the toter 5% cutbecause of the 1299,?00 pensonal services section (salaries,retirement, insurance, *orkers comp, ete.). I have, however, cut10% as opposed to the required st frou ari of ttre reoainir,t- tirr.items in 125 - Code Enforcement. 4110 4L20 4130 4140 42tO 4240 1 ,000 6G I .000 3 2,666 SUPPLIES, OFF I CE SUPPLIES, EQUIPIiIENT SUPPLIES, PROGRAIII SUPPLIES, VEHICLES BOOKS & PERIODICALS UNIFORMS & CLOTH ING ,13 00 FEES, SERV I CE43{O PRINTING AND PUBLISHINGiI37O TRAVEL & TRAINING 100 100 100 100 100 100 CITY OF CHANHASSEN 1991 BUDGET FUND : DEPARTMENT : FUNCTION : GENERAL PARKS 6 RECREATION1{5 - RECREATION PROGRN{S 19 90 BUDGET I9 91 BUDGE? 21 ,050 1 ,000 25,000 2,700 3,200 I ,5s0 SALARIES + I{AGES, OVERTIUE, REGULAR SALAR I ES + I{AGES .CON?RIB., RETIRE. CONTF.IB. , INS. }IORKMENS COUP. REG. TEI.IP. 0 750 33 ,500 1,800 0 0 * ?OTAL PERSONAL SERVI CES 35,300 36,050 5{ ,500 412 0 {130 4240 * TOTAL MA?ERIALS + SUPPLIES FEES, SERVICE ?ELEPHONE UTILITIES POSTAGE FRINTING AND PUBLTSHING TRAVEL + IRAINING I{ I LEAGE 1,500 6,500 a0o r,500 5,500 400 {300 {3t0 4320 {330 tl340 437 0 {380 l2 ,000 ?00 500 800 8,000 250 400 8,400 8, {00 12,000 650 ,300 ,875 ,750 0 0 It 11 12 ,000 ?500-2,ofr)r 13,000) \250 L 250I TOTAL CONTRACTUAL SERVICES 28,250 '4('rdz- t4\ t u(! (0 Tffi8 /. 6a '%ur-- 4 9I ,150 I -44- q I I I I I ACCOUNT DESCRIPTION j 19 90 1I:3!1131" 4010 {0I1 4020 4030 {040 {050 0 1,000 33,500 I ,800 0 0 s0 1,500 5,500 400 I I SUPPLIES, EQUIPXENT SUPPLIES, PROGRA}., UNIFORMS + CLOTHING 8, {00 *T TOTAL RECREATION PROGRN{S rrtL t76 tzo 22,650 27 ,575 67,350 72,025 t?c rb 70