08-7-91 Agenda and PacketFile
AGENDA
CHANHASSEN PIANNING CO!.{MISSION
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 7, 1991, 7:30 p.U.
CTTANHASSEN CITY HALL, 690 COULTER DRIVE
CALL TO ORDER
PUBLIC HEARINGS
1. Lundgren. Bros. /ortenblad/Ersbo, property zoned RR, RuralResidential and RSF, ResidentiaL Single faniLy located east ofPowers Boulevard and south of Lake Lucy Road:
a. Prelininary plat to subdivide 30+ acres to create 37single fanily lots.b. Wetland Alteration perrnit to alter/fi1l Class B wetlands.
2 KRJ Associates for Americana Connunity Bank, located on OutlotA, Market Square, property zoned pUD and located at thesouthwest corner of the intersection of W. ZSth Street andIlarket Boulevard:
a. Replat a portion of Outlot A, !,larket Square.
b. Site PLan Review for a 7,74O sguare foot building.
3. zoning and subdivision ordinance anendment to anend sectionsregarding landscaping and tree preservation requirenents.
NEW BUSTNESS
APPR AL OF MI
CITY COUNCIL UPDATE
ONGOING ITE}{S
ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVAI,S
OPEN DISCT'SSION
4. Sign Ordinance Work program.
ADJOURN}{ENE
CITY OF
EHANH,[SSEN
PC DATE: July 17, 1991
CC DATE:
CASE #:
Augiust 12 , ]-991
91-9 SUB, 91-2 REZ91-4 WAP
STAFF REPORT
Fz
C)
=(LL
Prelininary Plat to subdivide 30.3 Acres into 3? SingleFanily Lots
Wetland Alteration Pernit to Fi11 Class A and B Wetlandsand Develop Within 200 feet of a Class A tletl.and
Ortenblad/Ersbo Properties located south of Lake LucyRoad, approxinately I nile rrest of County Road 17
2)Rural Residential to pUD,
IOCATTON :
APPLICANT:
PROPOSAL: 1)
Wa zata MN 553 91
Rezoning of property fron RR,
Planned Unit Developnent
Lundgren Bros.
935 E. wayzata B1vd.
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENSITY:
ADJACENT ZONING AIID
IAND USE:
T^IATER AND SEWER:
PHYSICAL CHARACTER. :
2OOO I,AND USE PT,AN:
RR, Rural Residential
30.3 acres (gross) 26.3
L.22 rt/a (gross) L.4 lt/a
acres (net)
(net)
Fi Curry FarnsFi Greenwood ShoresF; single fanily residence, single farnily residence
Is available to the site.
Low Densit Res ident ia1
The site contains two single farnily residences(the Ortenblad and Ersbo hones). The sitealso contains one large Clas! A - uetlandprotected by both the City and DNR and severalsmaller Class B rretlands protected by the9ity.. The site contains sone steep stop6s andis heavily vegetated.
N-s-E-w-
RS
RS
RS
RR
E
UJFa
3)
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 19 91
Page 2
PROPOSAL,/SU}O,IARY
The applicants are requesting approval to subdivide a 3O.3 acresite into 37 -ingle fanily 1ots. Tlro of the lots will be occupiedby existing hornes with the renaining nade availabl,e for ne!,construction. After extensive di.scussion vith staff, followed by
discussions with the Planning Conrnission at the July 17th neeting,it was detennined that this plat should be vieved as a PUD request.
At the present tine, the site is zoned RsF and RR. A large portionof the area was located outside of the UUSA line until the recent
IIUSA expansion that rras approved by the Metropolitan Council inMay. Related requests include subdivision/p1at approval and
approvaL of wetland alteration perroits.
Staff has worked extensive].y with this applicant over many months
to develop this plan. The level of effort here is sonewhat unusualfor relativel.y s:na11 singJ.e faurily developnent, however, the needfor this work stems from a conplex set of variables that needed to
be worked with. of prinary concern was the nany uetlands that are
located on the property, while other issues related to access and
tree preservation. The wetland issues have received probably the
nost attention. of the wetlands contained on this property, the
largest is a water body that is also protected by the DNR. The
applicantrs design staff has done extensive study of the condition
of wetlands on this property and has found that they are generally
poor and in particular, the najor DNR wetland suffers frorn
degradation due to nutrient Loading and lack of stable rraterIeveLs. This area was farmed extensively up until the nid-1960rs
and has had its drainage patterns altered. It uas also clear that
in laying out the requested loop street systen, that it would not
be possible to avoid impacting sone of the low guality and snaller
vetland water bodies. In cases such as these, the city typically
allows relocation and inprovenent of wetland values elsewhere onthe site.
The current proposal results in a rather detail.ed plan to not onlynaintain and increase the surface area of rretlands but also tosignificantly improve both water quality and rretland/wildl ifevalues on this site. The proposal utilizes the latest technologyto capture much of the nutrients that have already danaged the nainwater body as well as to inprove the quality of runoff that wouldbe related directly to this proposal. Flexibility provided underthe PUD ordinance is also being utilized to ensure that not onl.ywill adeguate setbacks be provided fron the uetland but also thatthere will be a protected rretland fringe which will also improvewater quality and wetland values. In short, we believe thisproposal is representative of the type of dleveLopment that is goingto be dernanded by the city in the future as a result of our ongoingsurface water nanagement planning effort.
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 1991
Paqe 3
RE ZONTNG
Design of the street was also of critical interest. Flexibility instreet design rrras required if wetland inpacts were to be nininized
and tree loss in areas where significant areas of nature trees arelocated was also to be roininized. The applicant has uorkedextensively with city staff to rrork out an acceptable conpronise onthe street standards that should yield significant inprovenents inenvironmental protection without courpronising safety:
The use of the pUD ordinance to regulate this proj ect is soroewhat.unusual but rre believe a valid concept. In the past, the pUD
Ordinance was often used to allow for the coistruction ofsubstandard sized lots -on the presurnption that lower cost housingwould result. In reality, the price of thls housing was notneeeurably rower than anything else avairable in the comiunity anda .large number of problens resulted frora r.ariance situaiionsarising f.rorn undersized rots. rt nust be stressed that the use of
il,g PU.D in this project is a -cornpletely different proposal. Inthis instance, the -pUD i. 1" "q way teing .r=.i €o supportundersized 1ots. In fact, the lot size averageJ over 30TOOO squarewhich is rnore than tlrice the nornal RsF disi.rict stintaia. whatthe _PUD is being used for, however, .is to al1ow fot' a Doresensitive design of streets as welr as to pronote the clustering ofhornes in areas of high ground where tiey can be .."orroa.t"awithout irnpacting the wetland. As a resurt of ttris piin,-Jrt "tthe site will be set aside. as pernanently protect"d';pa; ,p."".Private yard areis are not included in this iotar ana ,iii """"pynuch of the renaining area. Thus, the puD is being used io piornot"higher quarity and nore sensitive design which is 5"t;i it "-"t.t"afundarnental purposes of the pUD District.
while this proposal is a fairly cornplex one, rre believe that it isquite well developed. - The dev;1opei, r,undgi"r, aro.., t.=-i =trorrgtrack record of developing desi.able and sensitivL resiaentiaiprojects elsewhere in our. cornmunity. They have worked extensiv-iywith city staff and have invested i Large -arnount of tine and effortinto. developing . a ptan - for f,rhat we elxpect uould become a highquarity residentiaL neighborhood. t{e conlinue to work uith the DNRand lratershed districts to refine the uetland plan. t{e believethat the use of the pUD district will not only result in asensitive project but also one that is of higher qr;ality than onenonnally expects. . ^Conditions of approval noE onl! nandateenvironrnental protection efforts but alL-o extensive landicaping.
Based upon the foregoing, 6taff is recornnending approval of thethree requests.
fron RSF,to PUD-R,
The applicant is proposing toResidential single Fa:oily and
rezone the propertyR, Rural Residential
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 19 91
Page 4
Planned Unit DeveLopnent-Residential. The site contains nanyphysical features which restrict the developnent of the property.
There are six wetlands located on the site. The largest uetlandcontains 5.3 acres and is a Class A uetland protected by both theCity and the DNR. The remaining five wetland areas are C1ass Bwetlands ranging in size ftoB 2.2 acres to .06 acres. The Class B
wetlands are protected by the city. The site also contains heavilyvegetated areas, steep slopes and two existing singJ.e farnily'
residences.
As a result of the existing features of the site, it rras found thatit would be unusually difficult and probably inappropriate toattenpt to develop the site under noraal RSF standards. Rezoningthe property to PUD nill provide flexibility to nodify streetright-of-way, front yard setbacks and wetland setback standards sothat the home sites can be developed in an envirorurentallysensitive nanner. The flexibility provided by the Pt D rrill be usedto louer the rear yard r.retland setback standard to decrease the
streejt right-of-way and front yard setbacks to move the home sitesfurther fron the wetlands than what voufd be possible under nornal
zoninq requirenents. The intent of the PUD district is to enlranceflexibility to develop a site through the relaxation of most nornalzoning district standards. Planned unit developnents are
encouraged to provide preservation of desirable sitecharacteristics and protection of sensitive and environmental
features including steep sJ.opes, Dature trees, creeks, vetlands,
Iakes and scenic views. PUDs should also provide a high guality of
design and design cornpatibility vith surrounding land uses. The
use of the PUD for this project lras explored with the Planning
Conmission on July 17.
Justification for Rezoning to PUD
The PUD ordinance allolrs for enhanced fLexibility in developing asite by the relaxation of nany nornal district standards. In
exchange for this flexibility, the city expects to actrieve a higherquality project that is nore sensitive to neeting the community t sgoals which include iroproved design and enhanced environmentalprotection. The applicant is proposing to reduce the road right-of-way fron 50 feet to 50 feet and to reduce the pavenent uidthfron 31 feet to 26 feet-. The applicant is also proposing to reducethe front yard setback fron 3O feet to 25 feet and a reduction ofthe wetland setback for str:uctures on some of the home sites. Itis alnost as important to note what the appllcant is not aslqingfor. Unlike several residentlal PUDrs in the past, there is norequest to include underEized lots. In fact, the reverse is true.
Average 1ot size of 30,900 square feet is double the l5rOOO aquarefoot RSF standard. Given this fact and standards that would beincorporated into the PUD agreement, there should be no repeat of
Lundgren Bros.JuIy 17, 19 91
Page 5
the numerous setback variance situations which have surfaced in
these ol.der PUDS.
The proposed reductions in right-of-way, street sidth and setbackswill raininize iurpact to wetLands, vegetation and slopes found onthe site. Essentially, they al.Low the disturbed area to berrcl.usteredr tiqhtly around the streets to ninirnize inpact of
devetopnent. The applicant has uorked on several alternatives to
the street design, specifically at the uest access point and where
the road is close to the class A wetland on the east side of theproperty. By reducing the street right-of-way and road uidth, nanyof the nature trees Located i.n the rrestern corner of the Eite are
being preserved, r.rhere as if a full street right-of-way and road
pavenent width were utiJ,ized, the trees uould be renoved. By
reducing the street right-of-way and pavenent yidth on the easterly
edge of the Class A wetland, the applicant is able to ninimizeinpact to the Class A rretland. The stands of mature trees willthat wiII be preserved on the site are being protected rrith avegetation preservation zone. In the past with other subdlvisions,staff has required tree preservation plans for each 1ot at tine ofbuilding pennit on sites where there are stands of trees that
should be preserved. We have found that rrhen the tree preservationplan comes in, the building pad is shoirn renoving sonre of the nostsignificant trees and then we are Left to argue with the builder
and horneowner over redesigning their home. tihat the applicant isproposing to do is to preserve the significant stand of trees uith
an easenent so that it is clear that those trees are protected andcannot be removed. In addition, staff rril1 be requestingrepl.acenent of trees with an inproved landscape plan and theprovision of three trees per Lot versus the reguired one tree perlot.
The site contains both Class A and Clas6 B wetlands of which sonewill be altered as part of the developnent. The Wetland Ordinance
al1ows the city to pernit alteratioh to wetLands upon receiving a
wetland alteration pernit. Qpically, a wetland alteration pernitis permitted if the wetland is replaced with one of equal orgreater size and guality. With the enforcement of the wetland
ordinance, staff has found areas rrhere the ordinance is lacking inactual protection of wetlands. With this project being proposed asa PUD, staff has been able to L'ork extensiveLy with the applicant
and their wetland consultant to cone up with creative ideas which
would resolve sone of the problens rre have extrreri.enced in the past.
These include the following:
1. The plan is proposing the creation of both trWalker Pondsrr andwildlife wetland areas. The rrWalker pondstr will be used forstorm water detention whlch will remove sedinentation andnutrients fron storn water prior to it entering the rretlands.The trwalker pondsrr are designed to NI,RP (Nationa1 Urban
Lundgren Bros.JuIy 17, 1991
Page 5
Runoff) standards which are nor., being used as best manageEentpractices for developnent of Bites. NtRp ponds have beendesigned to remove the highest anount of nutrients froD stomrrater runoff. This technologry represents a significantimprovenent in nater quality than has teen produced by typicafsedimentation basins used elsewhere in the connunily.- - Theapplicant has taken the fita]ker pondir one step further bymaintaining the design of the NURP ponds but also nodifyingthe design around the boundary so that it wiII appear is irretland and not sinply as a stono rrater holding pond. Thesite is also creating two wilillife wetland areas, which arewetlands being created solely for the enhancement of wildlife
and not used for storD vater detention. fn the past, such aswith the Curry Farns subdivision, ue have found that replacingwetlands with a conbination of wetland/storn rrater pond wainot successful . This resulted in an area being designed toneet wetland standards but which was actually used forretention of storn water. The large deposit of sedirnentationeventually kiIIs the rretland and it does not serve asbeneficial to wildlife t ith the high arnount of balance in thewater level . The proposal to establish wildlife areas asdrafted will avoid this problen.
2 Another problem that we have seen in the past rrith theprotection of our wetlands is that the rretland ordinancereguires a 75 foot setback for all structures fron the edge ofa wetland but does not prevent alteration up to the edge ofwetland. Therefore, although a structure nay have to be 25feet from the edge of a wetland, the area between thestructure and the rretland could be sod, seed, rock, etc.without a buffer strip the wetland is exposed to direct iurpactfron fertilizers used on the lawn, infringernent of the wetlandvegetation fron rnowing and roaintaining the adjacent lawns. Toresolve this issue, the applicant is providing a preserrrationstrip around alt of the wetlands which sill be niintalned inits natural state. The buffer strip ranges in depth fron 10feet to 25 feet in width and sill not be petmltted to bealtered. This strip is provided in addl€ion to wetlandsetbacks that are established on a 1ot by lot basis. Thepreservation strip will further protect the rretland fronfertil.izers off the adjoining 1awn ind shall provide a naturalarea for wild1ife. The preservation strip should also helpwith uraintaining the distinct look of a wetiand ana preventin|removal of vegetation and alteration to ttre vLtlana bfresidents in the future.
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 1991
Page 7
Sect ion 2 0-5o 5a
Transition Area Function
One of the possible uses of the pUD is to help create a transitionbetween differing. land use and levels of dCvelopnent intensity.This issue was raised..gt the Jul.y,17 planning Connission neetin!.we rrant to point out that tbe entire area is zoned and guided forsingle farnily uses ryith a nininun Lot area of 15,OOO sqrlare feet.we are hesitant to estallish .a precedent of requiring larger Iotsi.zes or higher housing price! through the -use 5e tnL puD.
However, we belleve this proposal does provide a good transitionbetween an area of RSF and an area of RR developnent to the rrest.
The curry Farrn subdivision to the north has an average lot size of20,562 square feet and a net density of 2.13 unias/acre. Theproposed subdivision has an average rot size of 3or9oo square feet.There would also Iike1y be an increase in hone varues nioving froneast to rrrest along Lake Lucy Road.
section 20-505 of the zo1i1-v ordinance provides required generalstandards for a pUD. While nost of these standirds ap-p:.y toindustriar or conmercial puDs, some of the nore general. st-alndardsalso- apply to a residentiar puD. The stan-ttards wtricir areapplicable are as follows:
a) The city shall .',onsider the proposed pUD fron the point ofview of alL standa-rds and purposes of the. comprehensivE randuse plan to coordinate between the proposed developnent thesurrounding use. The city shall c-onsider the loiation ofbuildings, cornpatibility, parking areas and other featureswith response to the t_o-pography- of the area and existin!naturaL features,- the efficiency, adequacy and safety of theproposed layout of streets i_ the adequacy and location -of greenareasi the adequacy, loeation and screening of non-conpatibleland uses and parking areas.
The proposed single farnily subdivision is consistent with theComprehensive L,and Use plan which designates this area asResidential Low Density. The ConprehensivL plan designates IowDensity as 1.2 to 4 units per acre. The proposal reJults in agross density of L.22 units/acre and a ne1 density of 1.4units/acre lrhich is at the lou end of the a11owab1e aensity range.Data produced for the Comprehensive plan update indica€es thatnormal RSF developnent averages 1.2 units pei acre. The proposedlots are being located around the existing tetlands ina tneproposed street design is nininizing alteration to the existingwetlands, nature vegetation and slopes.
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 19 91
Page 8
The PUD is also providing a transitional area bett een existing andfuture developnent.
Section 20-505 b.
conprehens ive
Plan Desiqnation
Lorr, or mediun densi.ty
res idential
Sect i on 0-505 f
Hard surface
Coveraqe (tl
30t
The proposaL has 8.5 acres of lretland out of 30.3 acres. The 9.6acres of wetland wiLI be protected as pernanent open space. Inaddition to the wetlands, 3.8 acres of additional ]and rril.l bepermanently protected as open space through preservatLon areas overvegetated areas and the wetland buffer strip. Therefore, a totalof 12.4 acres of permanent open space will be naintained on thesite. The 12.4 acres of pernanent open space is 41* of the whol.esite and this does not include open space found in the lawn areas.
The setback for all buildings within a pUD fror0 any abuttingstreet line shall be 30 feet for l6caL streets aria sO tee€from railroad lines for collector or arterial streets, asdesignated in the cornprehensive plan, except that in no casesha1l the setback be less than the height ot ttre buildi.ng up
f)
b) The applicant sha11 denonstrate that the PUD plan offers thecity higher guality architectural and site design,Iandscaping, protection of wetlands, creeks and nature treesand bufferihg for adjoining properties that represent
inprovements over norroaL ordinance standards.
The applicant is proposing that the material that is used with theconstruction of the hones niLl be of high guality, including wood
and brick, etc. The site design is providing a buffer strip aroundthe wetlands to protect the rretlands once the developnent has beenconpleted and is also providing state-of -the-art upland ponding
areas to further protect the wetlands by renoving sediments priorto storn rrater enterinq the wetlands. The applicant has changed
the design of the streets several tirnes to provide the least inpactto the existing wetLands, trees and slope preservation. The trees
being preserved are contained f,rithin a preservation easement sothat the trees wiff continue to be protected once the developnent
has been conpleted.
Section 20-505 e.
e) Hard surface coverage shall be linited as follows:
to a nraxirnun of 100 feet. The setback for all buildings fronexterior PUD 1ot lines not abutting a pub).ic street sha1l be30 feet except that in no case shalI the setback be less thanthe height of the building up to a naxinum of 1Oo feet.Building setbacks from internal public Etreets shall bedeterrnined by the city based on characteristics of thespecific PUD. parking Lots and driving lanes shaLl be setback at least 20 feet fron all exterior 1ot lines of a pUD.
The proposal uiIl be naintaining a 30 foot setback frorn theperineter lot lines of the pUD. A conditlon rrill. be added torequire a 50 foot setback fron r,ake Lucy Road whlch is designatedas a collector street.
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 1991
Page 9
Se ction 2 0-5 5 h.
h)
Section 20-505 i.
At the.time PUD approval is sought fron the City, aII DroDertvto be incLuded vithin a puD shalI be under u'ifi"d "il.i=nii,br control or subj ect to such 1egal restrictions o. "or"rr.rri'=as nay be n-ecessary to ensure .compliance with the .approved
master develo-pnent plan and final site and buildinj-pfan.After.approval , parcels nay be sold to other partie= -wilnout
restriction, however, all parcels wil1 renain'sulje-t a; ii;PUD developrnent contract that wirt be recorded in iach crrain-of-tit1e.
The subject site contains two individuaL properties nhich are nowunder control of the applicant.- As part oi ttre pUD approval, a pUDagreement lrith all of the conditionl of approval wiii le EcoraedaSalT:! each- .property. This will guaiintee that aI1 of thecondlrrons hrhlch are set forth to ensure the protection of theynigug site features will be valid and enfo-rceable ior "."hindividual lot.
The proposal is cornbining the.Ersbo and Ortenblad property and bydoing so is renoving an existing plat. on the Ersbo pr^"p"rty. ThaErsbo property is being better utilized when courb-ine-a vfttr tueOrtenblad property.
i) Signs sha1I be restrlcted to those which are pernitted in asign plan approved by the_ _c.i!V and shall be- regulated bypermanent covenants, established in the pUD O-evelopnenLContract.
The PUD agreernent will .also include a sign plan which wil.l dictateexactly that type of signage is permitted on the site.
Section 20-505 k.
k) The uniqueness of each PUD reguires that specifications andstandards for streets, utilities, public faciLities andsubdivisions nay be subject to nodification from the cityordinances ordinarily governing then. The City Council naytherefore approve streets, utilities, public facilities andland subdivisions vhich are not in conpliance with usual-specifications or ordinance requirenentJ ie it finds thatstrict adherence to such standards or requirenents is notrequired to neet the intent of this or to protect the health,safety or welfare of the residents of the PUD, the surrounding
area or the city as a who1e.
The proposed PUD is providing street right-of-way of 50 feet versusthe required 60 feet, a reduced paved street of 25 feet versus thetypically required 31 feet, and reduced front yard and wetland
setback standards to further renove the hones and street sectionfron the sensitive features of the site including the existinglretlands, steep slopes and yegetated areas. The PUD aflorrrs thetypical city code standards to be nodified if the city finds thatthe strict adherence to such standards is not required to neet thej.ntent of the PUD or to protect the health, safety or welfare ofthe residents of the PUD, the surrounding area and the city as a
$hoIe.
fmproved pretreatment of stonn rrater
Irnproved conditLons of existing wetlandsFurther protection of wetlands with buffer strip and
easements
fncreased landscapingProtection of vegetation sith easenents
Increased architectural standardsProvision of transitional areaclustering disturbed areas away frorn sensitive featuresof the site
a
a
a
Lundgren Bros.
JuLy 17, 1991
Page 10
Sumnarv of Rezonino to PUD
Rezoning the property to PUD-R provides the applicant uithflexibility but allows the city to request additional inprovenentsand the siters unique features can be better protected. Thereduced standards allow the disturbed areas to be further renovedfron the unique features of the site. In return for reducihg thestandards, the city is receiving:
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 1991
Page 11
PRELIMINARY PI,AT
S treets /Access
The appl icanr. is proposing to subdivide 30.3 acres (Ortenblad andErsbo) into 37 single fanily lots. The net acreage of the site is26.3 acres after reuoving street right-of-rrays and uetland areas.The density of the proposed subdivision is 1.22 units per acregross and 1.4 units per acre net. Both the Ortenblad and Ersboproperty contain single fahily residence which wiII be uaintainedas part of this subdivision. The fots all exceed the nininum15,000 square feet of area sith an average lot size of 3O,9OOsquare feet.
The subdivision is being serviced by one J.oop public street off ofLake Lucy Road. The subdivision also contiins one cul-de-sacservicing 7 single fanily lots in the southwest corner of the site.The city Code requires a street right-of-way of 50 feet and apavement width of 31 feet. As part of the pUD, the applicant isproposing to reduce the right-of-nay width fron 60 feet- io 50 feetand to reduce the pavement width fron 31 feet to 26 feet. Theapplicant is proposing to do this to reduce the irnpacts to thevegetation, steep slopes and wetlands located on the site.
Staff strongly supports the use of a street loop rather than thealternative of serving the site by an over-length or several cul-de-sac_s. . Staff originally developed a sinilai conceptual streetplan. during the review of the noit recent frsbo plai. We havereceived a tequest fron a property orrrner to the elast to provideaccess to. his parceJ. through this ptat. We found that it w-ould bedifficult to provide, would elininate a potential honesite and isnot needed since access to this parcel is availabLe fron powers
Boulevard.
Tle City Code rras recently arnended to increase urban street right-of-way standards fron 50 feet to GO feet so that right-of-way wouldbe consistent throughout the city. we aLso note tlrat the pUOordinance specifically encourages the relaxation of streetstandards when safe but r0ore sensitive projects can resuLt. Thenajority of subdivisions located rrithin the urban area ofchanhassen contain only a 50 foot right-of-way. Therefore,although the reduction in right-of-t ay fron 50 to 50 feet is notconsistent with the city code, it uiII actually be consistent rrithwhat exists rrith other street right-of-ways in the urban Eection.The City Code specifies a standard of 31i for urban low volunestreet. The applicant is proposing a 2G foot wide street. Staffhas concerns with the reduction of pavernent lridth but believes thatit can be accomrnodated if carefully designed. The EngineeringDepartment has stated that if a pavernent width of 26 feet waiaccepted, the street would have to be signed for no parking. It is
Lundgren Bros.JuIy 17, 1991
Page 12
inevitable that there will be parking on the street when a resident
has conpany. As a conpron j,se, the city is suggesting that the 31foot uidth be used except for the westerly access nhere the standof trees is located and east of the Class A uetland rrhere the sharpcurve is located. fn these tuo areas, the road width will be
reduced to 26 feet in width. To acconmodate pedestrian traffic
where the road lridth j.s reduced, staff is requiring installation ofa 6 foot wide concrete sidewalk along the boulevard. In these
areas, the streets uiLl be signed to prohibit parking. This should
work ve1l since there wiII be little or no denand for on-streetparking in these areas since they are not near any residential
driveways .
There is a sharp curve on the easterly side of the class A wetland.
The sharp curve has been designed into the street so as to rninimize
inpact to the class A wetland and the steep slope located on the
Ersbo property. The loop street does not neet the minimum design
standards for a 30 n.p.h. roadway. staff is requesting that the
developerrs engineer provide curve design speed infornation toverify that the proposed curve will meet the safety standards. A
reduced speed linit to 10 n.p.h. and rrsharp curverr signage will be
required as a rninimum. we note that the street cannot be nodifiedto open the curve without significant environnental danage.
Further, rre note that it is unlikely to be used by anyone notfaniliar with the area since it does not serve through trips.Therefore, rre are reconmendj,ng that it be allot ed with signsposting an appropriate speed and curve notice.
The plan proposes an 8* sLope on one of the curves located east ofthe CLass A wetland. The City Code a1lows a naxinun of 7t grade.
Again, these set standards of the City Code can be nodified withthe approval of the PUD rrith specific conditions established that
would giuarantee that safety standards are still maintained. ftshould be pointed out that the city has often approved street
slopes in excess of 7t grade when it has reduced irnpact to existingsteep grades and vegetated areas.
The most easterly access is located directly across froD Arlingtoncourt in the Curry Farms subdivision. The westerly access isoffset fron a cul-de-sac in Curry Farns to the northrrest. Theboundary of the subject property is such that an access could notbe located directly to the south of the existing cul-de-sac. Theaccess is at an angle so that lights fron traffic leaving the siteshould not have too great of an inpact on existing homes to thenorth. To further rninirnize any inpact fron traffic leaving tbesite to existing hones to the norti;,' staff is reconrnending thateither a berm and/ or landscaping be provided on the right-of-way orprivate property, if possible, north of Lake Lucy Road-. Staff;11Iwork with the applicant to cone up with an appropriate Landscapingand grading plan.
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 1991
Page 13
Landscapinq and Tree Preservation
The site contains sone areas with significant vegetation. The mostsignificant stand of trees is located in the northwest corner of
the site where the applicant is proposing the westerly access and
a ponding area. The proposed street and ponding area will renove
several of the trees. The applicant has worked with the design of
the street to try to mininize the inpact to the existing vegetationas best possible: As'a result, sone of the Large trees arepreserved on both sides of the street. Originally, the plan showed
sone of the trees only being preserved on one side of the street.The applicant has added a retaining rrall to the design of thestreet to lessen the amount of grading and as nentioned before,they are also proposing to reduce the right-of-way and pavenentrridth which will further reduce the irnpact to existing trees. Theapplicant is preserving the renaining trees with a treepreservation area.
Page 5 of the attached plans shows the areas designated for treepreservation. In addition to these areas, staff is reconnendingthat the trees located on the Ersbo property also be included inthe preservation zone (Attachnent #1). The applicant has provideda landscaping plan as shown on Page I of the subrlitted plans.
Since the applicant is requesting rezoning to a PUD and there are
sorne significant trees that are being rerooved as a result of thesubdivision, staff is recomnrending that the landscaping plan beincreased. Specifically, staff ls reguesting that landscaping beprovided on the north side of the right-of-way on Lake Lucy Road,just north of the rrresterly access point and along the rear of lotsadjacent to the Class A DNR protected wetland (Attachoent #2).Although the Class A rretland will be surrounded by a vegetationbuffer strip, staff feels that it is necessary to have additional
landscaping in the forn of trees to further reduce the visuaLinpact of the rear lots facing out onto Lake Lucy Road. Staff isalso requesting that trees be pfanted along the south side of the
boulevard betrreen Lake Lucy Road and the Class A uetland. The thro
landscape benns proposed along the easterly access sbould be
expanded to the easterly lot line on Iot 1, Block 1 and to thebuffer strip on the rresterly side of Lot L, Block 2. The
landscaping areas shouLd also be increased on the sides of thewesterly access point. fhere is a 2 to 1 slope between the
proposed road and the wetland across from the Ersbo residence.Staff is reconmending that the applicant provide details on honthis will be stabilized and landscaped. The final landscaping plan
and budget should be provided for revien and approval prior toobtaining final PUD approval.
The city is currently in the process of revising landscapingregulations. Currently, the City Code requires one tree per lot aspart of a subdivision approval. The ne!, landscaping ordinance will
Lundqren Bros.July 17, 1991
Page 14
require placement of 3 trees per Iot. The 3 trees are proposed toinclude two hardwoods and one evergreen or ornanental tiee. Staffis reconroending that the applicant be required to provide 3 treesper 1ot as p-rt of this PUD. If the appl.icant can show that 3trees already exist on the 1ot, and that ttrese trees will not berenoved with the construction of the slngle fanily residence, therequirenent of the 3 trees per 1ot could be rraived.
Gradino. Drainaqe and Utilities
Grading on the site is proposed to be kept to a ninimurn in aneffort to preserve the trees and other natural elenents of thearea. The grading plan indicates that the najority of the Elopeswill be 3:1 or flatter with the exception in the northwest corner
and east of the largest rretland. Slopes in these areaa appear tobe 2:1. It is irnportant to note that the steepness of these sideslopes does not pernit nornal rnaintenance operations. This Ehouldbe considered when detennining seeding material and slopestabilization nethods. Wood-fiber blankets will be required forall slopes steeper than 3:1.
The drainage plan is a highly conplex one due to the water quality
irnprovement goals that have been established. A prelininary reviewof the plans indicates that it should exceed all storn waterretention requirenents due to the need for increased retention tineto improve water guality. Natural drainage flows rril} renainundisturbed. Since the site flows into tno watersheds, both RileyPurgatory and Minnehaha Creek watershed Districts should beformally required to review and/or approve pernits for the project.
The City Engineer has raised a concern over the proposed raising ofthe main wetland gater level by 2 feet. The concern relates to thepotentially poor quality of the subgrade under the street and thechance that higher water levels could cause a problen. Hisdepartment is researching this question at the nonent but furtherinvestigation and possibly planning for remedial neasures nay berequired of the applicant prior to flnal approval.
A sanitary sewer extension is proposed to the southwest corner ofthe plat for future service of the. property to the west. Sanitarysewer and watermain will be acquired fron the nainLines on fakeLucy Road. However, sewer and water lines and/or associatedeasenents should be investigated to provide future service tolandlocked parcels east of this p1at. A rffitten request has beenrnade by the Ravis property to the east.
Lundgren Bros.JuIy 17, 1991
Page 15
Ea s enents
On th
be in
e final p1at,
dicated:
the following easenents and right-of-way shall
1
2
3
4
Dedication of aII street right-of-rray.
Conservation and drainage easenents over all protected wetlandand ponding areas.
Access easements as required to servl,ce the ttwalker pondsr.
Utility easenents. over all sewer, uater and storn sewer lineslocated outside public right-of-way.
conservation easements over aII designated tree preservation
areas .
COI{PLIANCE WITH ORDINANCE PUD
1,ot
.A.rea
6
7
I,ot
widrh
Lot
DeDth
Front
Setback
Wetland BufferStrir:setba k
Ordinance
BIOCK 1
Lot 1
Lot 2
Lot 3(Existing Hone)
15,000 90 r
18,300 124.
18,200
93,100
135 r
450 r
125 |
139 r
201r
30 t
25t -W
50r-N
251
25.
751
N/A
N/A
N,/A
N,/A
N/A
N/A
Lot 4 19, 500 135 r 2L6.N,/A N/A
Standard drainage and utility easenents.
Provide a conservation easenent over aLL established rretl,andbuffer areas.
Park and Recreation
On JuIy 23, l9g:-, the Park and Recreation Cornnission reviewed theproposed p1at. After discussion the Cornmission reconmended thatthe city Council accept fu1l park and trail fees in lieu of landdedication and trail construction for the ortenblad and Ersboproperties.
N/A145 r
25.
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 1991
Page 1,6
Lot
Area
Lot Lot
DeDthwidth
front
setback
Wetland BufferstriD -etback
Lot 5
Lot 6
Lot 7
Lot 8
Lot 9
Lot 10
Lot 11
Lot 12
Lot 13
L'ot 14
Lot 15
Lot 15
Lot 17
Lot 18
Lot 19(Existing Hone)
Lot 20
Lot 21
Lot 22
Int 23
BLOCX 2
Lot 1
15,
L6,
54,
42,
36,
36,
20,
28'
27'
22,
17,
24,
23,
19,
31,
080
800
400
400
400
100
900
200
s90
700
800
100
400
500
400
118
80
50
80
89
91
178
90
92
111
51
80
90
97
103
155 r
L42l
2451
353 t
378 r
385 t
2481
289.
303 i
220.
L621
L52l
L72l
l79l
2231
251
251
251
25.
251
25.
251
25.
251
25.
25.
25)
25.
251
251
18 r 200
26,OOO
a7 ,2OO
32,800
110 i
941
87 r **
6281
N,/A
N/A
751
65r
751
40i
40t
45r
40 r
40r
N/A
N/A
40r
401
100 t
50 t
N/A
N/A
251
251
251
10 r.
10 1
10 1
10r
10 1
251
251
10!
10r
N/A
201
251
201
*
2421
2651
209.
L29l
3'15.
**
**
**
**
**
**
251
251
25.
251
751
751
901
751
54,500 138 t 251-E
50r-w
151
Lot 2 35,8O0 .105 r 384 r 25.65r 20j
Lundgren Bros.JuIy 17, 19 91
Page 17
Lot
Area
Lot
widrh
Lot
DeDth
Front Wetland
setback
Buf ferStrioSetack
Lot 3
lot 4
Lot 5
Lot 6
Lot 7
Lot 8
Lot 9
Lot 10
Lot 11
Lot 12
Lot 13
Lot 14
*
**
***
75r 000
29,2OO
2l,2OO
20,800
23 ,5OO
23,100
23 , 600
23 , 600
25,7OO
22 ,5OO
27 ,lOO
83,900
46s'.
432.
140 |
80 r **
87 r **
91r
95!
105 r
941
111r
88 r **
2681
300 r
2041
227'.
2691
301 r
3261
343 r
353 r
359 r
267 |
37L.
335 '
251
25.
25.
251
25.
251
251
251
251
251
25.
251
251
10r
10r
251
251
251
251
251
251
251
25.
15r*
50 r
40.
40r
?5.
751
751
75.
751
75.
751
751
50r
See Tree Survey for Preservation Area
Below 90 r Requirement
Nonna1 RSF side yard and non-wetland rear yard setbacks shallapply where applicable. AII lots subj ect to nonoal RSFaccessory structure standards.
WETLAND ALTERATION PERI'{TT
Due to the sensitivity of the site, the applicant has gone to greatlengths to have the vetlands analyzed by professional. biologistsand chernists. This lrork yielded the conclusion that the conditionof the wetlands, most notably the nain DNR protected water body, ispoor. This area was actively farrned until the Eid-1960s and hashad its drainage pattern altered. Due to high levels of nutrientsflowing into it and the lack of adequate water volune, the wetlandis in poor shape and does not support the many species of aninal
and plant life that should be in a healthy hretland. Uncorrected,this problem would only becorne worse. These problerus also haveimpact on downstrean water bodies like Lake Lucy and ChristnasLake. Elsewhere, two of the srnaller Lretlands found near Lake Lucy
Lundgren Bros.JuIy 17, 19 91
Page 18
Total Area of Existing Wetlands 8.3 acres
Total Area of Wetlands Altered/r.illed
Tota1 Area of wetlands Enhanced
Total Area of Wetlands to be created
Total Area of Unaltered lletlands
Total Area of Wetlands After Completionof Proj ect 8.6 acres
Net increase in wetland area o.3 acres
The applicant is proposing to replace the rretland areas that arebeing altered with the creition of two ,walker ponds., two wiiatitewetrand areas, the enhancement. of the criss A' wetrand andenhancement of a portion of the large class B wetland r.ocaied Lnthe southeast corner of the site. Tlie ,walker pondiri;";-d;=i;;e
!: I"I"": a high am-ount of sediurentation fron ,iorr r.i.i piior toi.t entering the wetland. -ar9a.s-. The a;.::licant is also adClini to tliedesign.of the ponds so that they looLiixe a natural wetland and anextension of the existing wetlands. The applicant is arso creatingtwo ner4' wetland/wi1dIi fe- area_s-. The appl ii-ant is arso frop-=:.ng t5enhance s-48 acres of wetland by - raising the ii[6i- rever
Road rrere created by the construction of driveways which bl.ocked!,rater flow.
ft is virtually iurpossible to develop this site without directlyirnpacting some of these tetlands. Due to the planning that hasbeen done, ve believe the net result of this proposal will be anirnprovement in wetland and water quality, expanlion of wildlifehabitat as well as an increase in the total surface area ofwetlands found on the site.
The city Code requires a wetland atteration pernit for anyalteration to a Class A or C1ass B wetland and for any developnenLwithin 200 feet of a Class A hretland. There are 6 wetlands lolatedon the site. The largest wetland contains 5.3 acres,is a Class Awetland and is protected by both the City and DNR. The renaining5 wetland areas are class B wetlands ranging in size fron 2.2 acresto .06 acres. The applicant is proposing to completely fiII 2 ofthe class B wetland areas and to partially fill the rernaining ClassB wetlands. There will also be a srnall area of filling in theClass A rretLand. Sheet 5 illustrates the wetland areas which arebeing altered, enhanced and created and the following table liststhe areas:
.7 acres
5.5 acres
1.0 acres
2.0 acres
Lundgren Bros.
July 17, 1991
Page 19
approxinately 2 feet in the large C1ass A wetland, by enlarging theClass B wetland located in the southeast corner of the site.
The wetlands that are being created will be protected frominfringement through a preservation strip located around theboundaries of the rretLands. The preservation strip ranges froE 25feet to 10 feet in width. The preservation strip will uaintain avegetative area betrreen the deveLoped area of the Iot and the ClassA and B rretlands.. The vegetative buffer will .be preserved by an
easement and by the PUD agreenent which will be recorded againsteach Iot. Alteration to the buffer strip wiJ.l not be peraitted.
The width of the preservation zone for each 1ot is located in the
cornpl iance .
ft was not possible for the applicant to provide the required ?5foot setback for structures fron the edge of the wetland. Theproposed wetland setbacks range fron 75 feet to 40 feet. Staff
worked with the appticant to establish the reduced setbacks so thatthey would aIlow for the Location of a sing1e faniLy hone and ausable back yard vhile providing adequate protection for thewetlands. As stated previously, the additional protection is beingprovided through the buffer strip which will prevent any alterationoccurring to the edge of the wetland. The required ninimun rretlandsetback established as part of this PUD is shown in the conpliancetable which t iIl, be recorded with the PUD agreement. To ensurethat staff can locate the edge of the buffer strip to establish thesetbacks, the applicant will be required to pLace L inch by 18 inchiron pipes at the edge of the buffer strip along each lot 1ine.
The CLass A wetland is protected by the DNR and anyalteration/enhancenent proposed must be approved by the DNR. The
DNR has initially denied any proposeit filling to the C1ass Awetland for the construction of the street. Staff, the applicant,
and DNR have met on the site to detemine the actual extent of DNRjurisdiction in relation to the linits of construction for theroad. It lras detenrined that the DNR would have to have the
wetland surveyed to deternine the actual ordinary high water Dark.
If construction is beyond the ordinary high water nark, then DNR
approval is not necessary. If construction is within the ordinaryhigh water nark, the DNR nould have control over pernitting thealteration. Any filling of rretlands reguires a pernit from the
Corps of Engineers. The applicant will be requi.red to subnit the
appropriate pernit application. A prelfuninary letter fron the DNRis attached to this report. It should be noted that these connents
were based upon an earll.er version of the pLan. Current plans havebeen revised to address these and other concerns and rre are
continuing to work uith DNR staff to refine this proposal.
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 19 91
Page 20
The Engineering Department has stated that there uray be a probler0nith raising the irater level of the Class A wetland due to the typeof foundation under Lake Lucy Road. The applicant will work withthe Engineerrng Departnent to verify that there will either be noimpact to Lake Lucy Road or to deternine uays of avoiding theinpact.
staff feels the addition of new rretLands, the enhancenent ofexisting wetlands' through increased uater capacity and renoval ofsedirnentation and the protection of the netlands uith the bufferstrips are a fair trade-off for the rretland area rrhich is being
rerooved .
RECOl.fl"lENDATIONS
REZONTNG
Staff recornnends
motion:
the Planning Coro:nisBion adopt the following
t
I'The Plannj.ng Coronission recomnends approval of Rezoning .#91-2property RSf and RR to PUD-R rrith the following conditlon:
The applicant sha1l enter into a planned Unit DevelopnentAgreenent containing all of the conditions of approval forthis project and sha1l subroit all required - financialguarantees. The PUD Agreenent shall be recorded against theproperty.
2
3
Conpliance with setback standards established in theConpliance Tab1e.
The applicant shall neet all conditions of the Subdivision#91-9 and Wetland Alteration Pernlt #91-4.tl
PRELU{INARY PLAT
Planning Connission adopt the following
rrrhe-Planning commission recohnends approval of subdivision *91-9as- sholrn on the- plans dated July 29, 1991, and subject to thefollowing conditions:
1. where the proposed Etreet is reduced to 25 feet, there 6hallbe rrno parkingrr signs posted and a G foot iride concretesidewal.k sha11 be provided over the boulevard. The sharpcurves located in the loop street sha1l be 1iurited to a 1brtr.p.h. speed lirnit and shal1 have trsharp curverr signage.
Staff reconnends themotion:
Lundgren Bros.July 17, 1991
Page 21
A revised
following:
landscaping plan shaIl be subnritted providing the
Landscaping on the south right-of-way of Lake Lucy Roaddirectly north of the Class A wetland.
Landscaping along the rear lots adjacent to the Cfass A
wetl and.
Landscaping along the 2:1 slope adjacent to the Class Awetland.
Additionalpoints.berming and landscaping along the access
Three treesper Iot.(2 hardwoods and 1 evergreen or ornarnental)
'f. A landscaped berm shall be provided on the north right-of-way Lake Lucy Road across fron the westerly access toprovide screening fron traffic to existing hones.
The applicant shal1 subnit a cornprehensive drainage anderosion control plan prior to final plat reviet. Wood fiberblankets shaIl be required for all slopes. steeper than 3:1.
The applicant shaIl work with staff to investigate theprovision of future services of sewer and rrater to adjacentparcels. The applicant shall subnit final road, drainage andutility plans and specifications for revier{ prior to finalplat review. The applicant shall also work with the City
Engineer to address concerns vith Lake Lucy.Road subgrade.
The applicant shalL enter into a developnent contract andprovide the necessary financial security.
The applicant shall acquire all necessary agency pernits.
The appticant sha1l provide fu11 park and trail fees in lieuof land dedication and trail construction.
8. Provide the following easenents:
a
d
e
J
4
5
6
7
b.
Dedication of all street right-of-uay.
Conservation and drain.g" !.""."rrts over aII protecteal
wetland and ponding areas.
Access easements as required to service the rrwalker
pondsrr.
c
b.
Lundgren Bros.JuIy 17, 19 91
Page 22
10.
11. The applicant sha11 neet aI1 conditions of the WetlandAlteration Pernit #91-4 and Rezoning #gL-2.n
ITET&AND AIJTERATION PERI.iIII
Staff reconmends the planning Connission adopt the followingnotion:
trThe
.
Planning cornrnission reconnends approvar of wetland AlterationPernit #91-4 with the following condi€ions:
1
d Utility easenents over aII serder, uater and storn sewerlines located outside publi.c right-of-vay.
Conservation easenentspreservation areas.
over all designated tree
Standard drainage and utility easenents.
Provide a conservation easenentrretland buffer areas,
over all established
The applicant sha11 indicate the allotable type of dwe1llng,the house pads and the lowest floor eLevation on the gradingpIan.
by
be
are
The existing hydrant betrreen Lots 2 and 3, Bfock 1 shall berelocated 75 feet to the south. The Fire Departnent nustapprove street nanes and a 10 foot clear space nust beprovided around fire hydrants. Additional hydrants are neededat the intersections of Lake Lucy Road and the proposed publicroad.
All wetland areas will be protected dlrring constructionType III erosion control. The erosion control shallmaintained in good condition until the disturbed "rti.stabil i zed .
The proposed wetLand setbacks and buffer strip shown in thecompliance tabr.e for each r.ot wirr be recorded as part oi [rrePUD agreenent. No wetland setback less than eo f6et rriir ueperuritted and the buffer strip nay not be less than fO iettwide. The buffer strip will 6e pfeserved by an "i"enE"t.---Alteration to the qretlands must occur nhen it resurta in theleast inpact to the wetland and not during breeding ,.iJ"". -
The rrl{a1ker pondrr and wirdrife wetland areas must be designedto.the standards proposed in the.applicantts subnittai p;;katdated JuIy 30, 1991.
e
f
s
9
2
3
4.
Lundgren Bros.July 17, l99]-
Page 23
5 The applicant shall rrork lrittr the Engineering Departnent toguarantee that increasing the water level of the CLass Awetland will not affect the stability of Lake Lucy Road.
The appJ.icant sha1l receive perrnits fron the DNR and Corps of
Engineers .
The applicant shaLl roeet all conditions of the Subdivision
#91-9 and Rezoning *9L-2., .
ATTAC}IMENTS
Additional tree preservation areas.Additional Iandscaping.
rom Charles Folch dated JuIy 30, 1991.ron Todd Hoffnan dated July 31, 1991..ron stewe xirchnan dated July 3, 1991.ron lIark Littfin dated June 28, 1991.fron DNR dated July 10, 1991.fron lIN Soil and water conservation District dated JuIy
6
7.
1
2
3
4
5
5
7
8
1.
Memo f
lleno f
Memo f
Memo fLetterLetter1, 199
o
10.
11.
L3.
L4.
16.
Letter fron Corps of Engineers dated July 15,Application.
Uemo to Planning Connission dated JuIPlanning Connission minutes dated Ju1Letter from Joe Morin dated July 18,Applicant Subrnittal packet dated JulyPlans dated July 29, 1991.
1991.
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yL7
1991
30,
1991.
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1991.
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CITY OF
EII,Tl{tI[EEEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
MEMORANDUM
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SUBJ:
Jo Ann Olsen,Senior Planner
City EngineerCharles
July 30,
FoIch,
19 9I
ry
Lundgren Bros . /Ortenblad/Ers bo
Review of PUD,/Prel imi nary PlatFile No. 91-10 LUR
In accordance with revieht of the above -referenced PUD,/prel imi nary
p1at, r offer the following conments for consideration:
1. The proposeil street width is shown as 26 feet wide. City
ordinanle specifies a stanilaril urban low-volume residential
paved streel widttr of 31 feet back-of-curb to back-of-curb.
Staff has discussed this matcer rrith the developer. An
acceptable alternative has been reached specifying fuII City
standard width (31 feet back-of-curb to back-of-curb) through
the resialential area with a transition to 25 feet at the two
critical areas near the wetlanils. No Parking woulil be
allowed in these two reilucetl width areas.
The preliminary plat subnittecl shor,rs a road right-of-way
width of 50 feet and a cu1-Cle-sac radlius of right-of-way of
50 feet also. City ordinance calls for a 5o-foot
right-of-way and a 50-foot cul-de-sac radius of right-of-way.
Given the wetland constraints and the fact that this is a
PUD, staff is agreeable to the retluced right-of-way proposed.
From preliminary staff investigation, it is apparent that two
horizontal road curves on the easterly leg of the street loop
do not meet mnimum design standarals for a 30 I{PE roadway.
One of these sharp curves iE introduceal on an 8t downgrade.staff has some concerns for the safety aspect6 of thisilesign. A reduced speedl limit to 10 MPE antl isharp curve'
signage will be required as a minimum.- The 8t grade appears
warranted in an effort to reduce the impact to the adjacent
I4tetland.
3.
Jo Ann Olsen
JuIy 30, 1991
Page 2
ktm
A comprehensive drainage and erosion control plan needs
submitted for the final plat review. The drainage plan
should be accompanied with design calculations verifying
ponding storage anil runoff rate calculations ancl designfor each of the corresponiling storm sewer pipe segments.majority of the runoff from the site is proposed co be
directed via storm sewers to clarification ponils for
pretreaEment prior to discharging into the wellands.
to be
thefI ows
The
Grading on the site is proposecl to be kept to a minimum in aneffort to preserve the trees and other natural elements of
the area. The grading plan displays that the majority of the
slopes will be 3:1 or flatter with the exception in the
northwest corner anil east of the largest leet1and. Slopes in
these areas appear to be 2:I. It is important to note that
the steepness of these siile slopes does not Prmit normal
maintenance operations. This should be considered when
iletermining seeding material and slope stabilization meehods.
lilo6d-f iber blankets wilI be required for aII slopes steeper
than 3: I .
Drainage and utility easements shall be provitled on the finalplat for all utility infrastructure outside of the normal
road right-of-way and for all detention ponils and
corresponding access points for which City naintenance wilI
be required. wetland areas shall- also be encompassed in
appropriate drainage easements. The developer sha1l confer
with staff to determine proper easement widths needed.
A sanitary sewer extension is proposed to the southwest
corner of the plat for future service of the property to the
hrest. SaniLary sewer and watermain will be acquired from the
mainlines on Lake Lucy Road. However, sewer and water lines
and,/or associatecl eas;ments should be investigated to provide
future service to landlocked parcels east of this plat. A
written request has been made by the Ravis proPerty to the
east.
6
8 Prior to final plat, the developer shall submit to the
Engineering Department final plans anil .specifications for
review and city Council approval , provide the necessary
information, security and letter of cretlit to enter into a
corresponding development contract for this improvement
projecl. The Developer shalI acguire all necessary agency
permits
Paul
Dave
Krauss,
Hempel,
Planning Director
Sr. Engineering Technicianc
4.
5
7.
CITY OF
CH.[I{tI[$$EI'I
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (512) 937-5739
UEMORANDt,I,l
TO: Jo Ann Ol.sen, Senior' Planner
FROM: Todd EoffDan, Park and Recreation Coordinator
DATE: July 31, 1991
SULT: Site Plan Review - Ortenblad and Ersbo properties -Lundgren Bros. Construction
The Park and Recreati.on Connission reviewed the above nentionedprelirninary plat on July 23, 1991. Mr. Terry Forbord of.LundgrenBros. was present at. the meeting. A copy of the staff relortpresented to the Cornrnission is attached for your review. Hinutesof the meeting are currently available.
Discussion that evening centered on rrhether or not a snall park,less than 1.5 acres, would be desirable in this subdivisi6n tosatisfy the needs of the persons residing in the 37 proposed hones.The potential of a traiL connection to -Greenwood s-rroies rras alsodiscussed. It rras the consensus that other parks in the area, withCurry Farns Park being the Dost accessible, woul.d satisfy thi parkneeds of this subdivision. The Cityis compreheniive planclassifies. a .neighborhood park as one w-t ich =eives popuiationsresiding uithin a I nile radius of the site. rue orteirbiad-ErsroproFerty is centrarly located within the service areas of pheisantHill' Park, curry Fam, carver Beach prayground and Greenrrood shoresl".Ir. Rema.ini-ng at issue uas the aesiie to investigate possibletraffic control or warning signs to be posted in cr"i-sin! -ai"is otLake Lucy Road.
upon concrusion of their discussion, the park and RecreationConrnission recornrnenda.d the. City Councii accept fuLl park ana-traiffees in lieu of land dedication and trair'consir"-"ii"" -ii, tt.ortenblad and Ersbo propertLes.
CITY OF
CII[NH[S$EN
690 COULTER DRIVE . PO. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MTNNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
I,IEMOP.{\DI-M 3
To3
FP.OTI:
DATE:
Jo Ann OIsen, Senior Planner
Steve A. Kirchman, Building Official
July 3. 1991
SI BJ:Planrring Case 91-9 SUB & 91-4 WAp
l,undgrerr)
I have reviencd Jortr requesl for comments onpl anni nE case. and have sone i tems I feel
condi I ions of approval.
(Or t enbl ad, Ersbo
tbe above referenced
shoul d be added as
l11a |5.1i s:
Tlre prel inrirrary plat indicates mosl lots have narroL front footage,so most lromes nill be close together at the side Iot Iines. Ttris[la]' cause drainage problems from lot to lot. A S, drainageeasement at each side property line with a drainage swale betweenadjoining lots uould Irelp prcvent problems from occurring.
Topograph1' throughout the proposed subdivi sion var ies considerably.I'uture grading and drainage problems can be avoided jf futureo$ners and contractors are made aware of the type of home permittedon each Iot. R (rambler), SE (split entry), RWO (rear walkout),
SEIIO (split entry nalkout), or TU (tuck under) should be indicatedin the outl ine of the proposed house pad. The lowest floorelevation should also be shown in the house pad outline.
Inclusion of these conditions r.ri I I accomplish a great deal inpreventing drainage problems and homeo$ner complaints.
R e c ontnr c rrdalions:
I recommend the fol lowing three conditions be included in the
cond i tions of approval.
M+
Baclpnound:
Jo Ann OlsenJul1 3. 1991
Page 2
1 Provide a 5' drainage easement
and indicate drainage suales inplan.
at each side property line,
these easements on the grading
dwelling in the hours pad
the house pad oul l ine
2 Irrdi cate the al Iowable type ofoutline on the grading plan.
Indicate the lowest floor elevation inon the grading plan.
J
CITY OF
EHINH[$EEN
690 COULTER ORIVE. PO. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
Senior Pl anner
Fi re Mar sha I
9I -4 WAP
Powers Blvd)
Requi renrer,ts from the Chanhassen Fire Department:
MEIIORA\DUITT
TO: JoAnn
FROI,I: ltlark
DATE: June
SUBJ:#91-9
(Lale
Olsen,
Littfin,
28, 1991
SL'B and
Lucy &
1 Addi l ional h.1-drants needed at the intersectionLucy Road and proposed public road. One neededsoulh,/east corner, east entrance. One needed acornel', rest etrance
of Lake
at thet south/east
2
4
Relocale existing hydranl bet$een Lots 2 & 3, Z5' south.
Fire Department must approve proposed street names.
10 fool clear space must be maintained around firehydrants, (i.e, u t i l i t i e s r . s t r e e t Ianps, landscaping).
ffi STAIE OT
hgtrS@TA
EPARTMENT OF NATURAT
}IETRO WATERS, 1200 Warner Rd., St.
RESOURCES
PauL, lilN 55106
FILE NOPHoNE No. 772-79LO
JuIy 10, 19 91
Jo Ann OlsenCity of Chanhassen
690 coulter Drive, P.O.
Chanhassen, l{N 55317
Box 147
Protected wetland 10-1311{ (6 acre, t}T)e 4) is on the proposedsite. Any activity betow the ordinary high water (OIiW)elevation which aLters the course, current, or cross sectionof protected waters or wetLands is under the jurisdiction ofthe DNR and nay require a DNR protected hraters pen0it. Noofficial OHW has been established for 1O-131W. please contactthis office if there is any question about whether proposedactivities rrill be Lrithin protected wetland 1O-131W and wL cannake arrangenents to estimate or officially deternine, ifnecessary, the OHW.
..lul 11 ilil
The proposed plans for this developnent show that this wetlandis to be fiiled in several spots for the construction ofi'PubIic Street'r. The fiIling. of a uetland for roadwayconstruction is pernitted only lf: 1) the pubtic need ruleiout the no build alternative, and 2) it is the 1east inpactalternative. If it uas necessary to fill into wetland 1o-i31win order to construct ,'public Streetl the City t ould have toapply.for the DNR protected rraters perDit. iou are advisedthat it would be highly unlikely that the DNR rrould issue aperlit- for.roadway fill ln a situation like this, since itrrould be extrernely di.fficult to argue that the public need forthat particular residential streLt rules oua the no-buildalternative. The only public that .would benefit fron thisroad are the developer and those who buy the hones on thatstreet.
Dear Ms . ol,sen:
We have reviewed the site plans (received July 1, 1991) for the
above referenced project (NE 1/4, SI{ 1/4, Sec. 2, T116N, R23W). Ingeneral, we see najor problems with the current proposal,particularly the road placenent. Specifica).1y, lre have thefollowing comments to offer:
1
2
AN EOUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER
RE: PRELTUINARY PLAN, ORTENBLAD/ERSBO PROPERTY DEVELOPIT{ENT,
PROTECTED WETLAND 1O-131W, CITY OF CIIANHASSEN, CARVER COIJNTY
c:'i \,' c:: ci.i,^.1:Pr.!r,-
1,1s. OlsenJuly 10, 1991
Page Trro (2)
The proposal to renhancel rretland 1O-131W by controlling thewater level should be conmented on by DNR Fisheri""- .naWildlife staff. A DNR protected watirs permit
",o,ria
-i.
required; - houever, the wlter Level changei woura nJi ueauthorized unless the DNR Division of Fish i wifafile ;;";";; -that the changes would benefit rrildlife
rt appears that nost of the stormlrater is routed throucrhsettling basins, whi.ch is good. We rrould oUjeci toG"i;;;i;stormrater routed directly to this wetLand.
A portion of the site is in the Lake Lucy shoreland district;tf:I.fgrg, t-he city shoutd ensure ttre froiect-i" .;;;f;;;;iwlEn EheLr shoreLand nanagenent regulationi.
Portions of the site. appear to be very steep and are.therefore, not appropriata-buirding sites.' w. "na-"rr'ii"a-ii!ctEy Ls hrorxj.ng-on a bluff/steep slope protection ordinance.Relevant provisions .of the city-r. prlpoiea orainince-iil--a;;JuIy 3, 1989 version of th; sdate shoreland ,;";;;r;;iguidelines should be. consuLted in ensuring that "acU i5i tasan appropriate building location.
Should a variance to the cityrs requirenent for a 75 footsetback fron wetlands be cons-idered ihe ci[y stroufa ;;s"i;;that a buffer strip of natural vegetatio-n Ue ,ainiiineaadjacent to protected vetland areas. fhis brff"r =dit-;h;;i;be preserved rrith conservatLon easenents, covenants or deedrestrictions for the properties adjacent the wetland ;r;;;:This would also h.91p to ensure tha€ the property. olrners are
?rlT..that the clty-, DNR and U.S. corpj of rnlineeri rriv-lur:.sdrcti.on over the wetland areas and that ahe r{retlandscannot be altered without approprJ.ate pernits. . -- --
Appropriate erosion control Deasures should be taken duringthe construction period. The Minnesota Construction Sit6Erosion and sedi,ent contror planning Handbook (Board of water& soiL Resources and Association ot Irletropoiitan sol1 i"aI{ater conservation Districts) guidelines, or iheir equivllen[,should be followed.
ff construction involves dewar=ring in excess of lOrOdOgallons p-er. day or -1 nillion gallons per year, the contraitorr.rtJ.J. need to obtain _a DNR appropriations pernit. you areadvised .that ir. typice,Ity -tlxeJ approxirna'te1i-io J"G -t"
process the pernit application
4
5
7
6
9.
3.
6-
Ms. OlsenJuly 10, 1991
Page Three (3)
Thank you for the opportunity to conment. Please contact ne or
Ross Toepel at 772-79LO should you have any questions regardingthese connents.
Sincerely,
C;-t
ceil strauss
Area Hydrologist
Carver SWCD
UScoE, Vern ReiterRiley-Purgatory-Bluff Creek WSD, Bob Oberneyer
wayne Barstad, Ecological Services
Lake Lucy file ( 10-7P)
Chanhassen ghoreland file
CARVER SOIt ANO WATER CONSERVATION DISTRICT
MINNESOTA
SOIL ANo WAT=R CONSERVATION DISTRICTS JUL C 8 i99i
clt I vr vr'? rrtAssLN
JuIy I, 1991
Jo Ann 0lsen
Senior Planner
Planning DepartDent
City of Chanhassen
690 Coulter Drive
P.0. Box 147
Chanhassen, UN 55 317
RE: Pl&nning casc - 91-9 SUB and 91-4 t{Ap
Jo Ann 0l sen:
2t g Esst FDntage noad
W&on6. Mnncsot. 55387
TeLphone (6!2t aa2.5lOi
RE0Etviti
The proposed plat and wetland alteration have been reviewed by thisoffice. The following is a list of concerns relating to the ibovereferenced planning case.
*Block I, lots 10, 12 & 13 and Block 2, lot I each has an area offill oaterial within the construction rindor shorn on theengineer's drawing. This office is concerned rith the potentiaLfor structural danage to foundations placed rithin this laterial.Settling of the fill laterial and the raterial associated rith theorigional Hetland bottou is one reason for thie concern. Another
reason for concern i6 the potential for problels associated rithfluctuating ratertables. Care should be tEken to ensure thebotten elevation of baseoents and foundations is above the
seasonal hiEh *atertable.
Caution should be taken rith regard to the possible existaDce of
seasonal watertables in the area around the retlands. Seasonal*atertables can fluctuate based on cllDatic factors. placing
foundations or baseoente in areas rith knonn seasonal ratertables
Day create costly, Iong tero structural probleae.
Slopes found rithin. the indicated building sites range froo 4 to
16 percent. An erosion and sedinent eontrol plsn is needed prior
to the construction phase of this developoent. Specific leasureB
such as the location of Bilt fencinglr rood fiber blankete,
Dulching, seedlng retes and planting dates, etc... need to beoutlined in thiB plan. A Eaintenance echedule should also be
included to ensure that the outlined practices are functioningproperly. Erosion & sedinent control planning assistance iaavailable at the Carver Soil & Tater Conservation District.
*
*
AN EOUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER
Block 1, Iot 3 is shown to require rajor regrading on exibit c.
Slopes in this area will aost likely require erosion control
practices such as wood fiber blankets in addition to reseeding as
soon as grading is conpleted. Nerly constructed road ditches
should also be seeded for erosion control as aoon as grading is
coupleted.
The engineer's drawings did not include 8 coDplete surfgce pater
plan. No drainage easelents rere indicated in the areas of
storEHater detention ponds or along property line6.
t{ildlife habitat is another concern. It is realized that the
developer is planning to increase and enhance the Hetland erea on
this parcel. Howeverr this office nould support these leasures
only if approved by the llinnesota DepartDent of Natural Resources
and/or the U.S. Fish & Hildlife Service. If these or8lanizations
deteroine this alteration & enhancerent a desirable litigation
this office would recognise and approve of this plan accordingly.
Each of the above uentioned concerns should be addressed by a quailified
engineer or professional specializing in the area of concern li8ted.
The infornation enclosed rith the request for our revier indicated alist of firns & individuals retained for this project. Thie Iist
appears to contain the expertize needed to address our concerns.
Enclosed you *ill find a couputer generated soils nap of the parcel and
soils data relating to building site suitability. If you have questions
or concerns relating to this letter or the enclosed oaterials please
contact this off ice.
Sincerely,
*
t\-x,
Daniel J. Kane
District ltlanager, CSI{CD
encl.*
*
*
*
c
conputer generated soi !.e lapsoil interpretation sheets
Lundgren Bros. Construction, Inc.District Fileg
*
PAGE 1 OF 2
I N TRODUCT I ON
This soil survey contains information that can be usedin land-planning programs in the county. It containspreoict-ions of soil behavior for seLected land uses. The surveya]so highlights limitations and hazards inherent in the soil,improverrents needed to overcome the limitations, and the impactof selected Land uses on the environment.
Press <space bar> for next p a9e
<esc> to exit <P> for hard copy <enter> for page one
This soil survey is designed for many different users.Farmers, ranchers, and ag.onomists can use it to evaluate thepotential of the soil and the management needed for maximum foodand fiber production. planners, community officials, engineers,developers, builder:s, and. home buyers can use the survey-to planland use, select sites for construction, and identify specialpractices needed to insure proper performance. conse rva ti onists ,teachErs, students, and specialists in recreation, wildlifemanagement, waste disposal, and pollution control can use thesurvey to help them understand, protect, and enhance theenvi ronment -
es can .".,"'iiin?nolno7.distances. Some soils are seasonatly hret or subject to floodin9.some are too unstable to be used as a f oundati.on for buildings orroa!-ls. Clayey or wet soils are poorly suited to use as septictank absorption fields. A high water table makes a soil poor).ysuited to basements or underground installations.
These and many other soil properties that.affect land useare described in this soil survey. Broad areas of soils are shownon the generar soil map. The location of each soir is shonn onthe detailed soil maps. Each soj.I in the survey "i.. isdescribed. rnformation on specific uses is given for Lach soir..Herp in using this pubrication and additionar information areavailable at the local office of the Soil conservation Service orthe Cooperative Extension Service.
o
OEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
ST PAUL DISTiIC'. COFPS OF €I{GITEEFS
ra2r u.s. PosTolFtcE t cusloM HousE
ST- PAUL. MIN ESOTA 55IOI.T'?O
July 15, 1991
Enclosure (s)
Cons Eruction- Operations
Regulatory ( 91-447S - 75 )
SUBJECT: IJetland Alteration, Ortenblad/Ersbo Property DevelopEent, Clty of
Chanhassen, Carver County, l,[tnnesota
City of Chanhassen
Jo Ann Olsen
590 Coulter Drlve, P.0. Box 147
Ghanhassen, Hinnesota 55317
We have learned lhat you are considerlng conductlng the activity
referenced above. It eF?ears that you wlll need a DepertDent of the Arroypernit for thls work. IJe are enclosing application uaterials. lile can process
your application rnore quickly lf you fill ouE the appllcatlon coupletely and
speciflcally. Also include several color photos of the yorkslte.
Cornplete the needed lnforEatlon as soon as you can. Because rre Dust
obtain recommendacions fron several agencies, our processlng for Eost
individual perEits takes about 50 days.
The temporary placenent of fill Daterlel lnto any uaterbody/uetland for
purposes such as tenporery strean crossings, bypass roads, cofferdam
construction, or storage sites t0ay requLre a Departnen! of the ArEy perEtt.
If your project will, or rnay, include any tenporary placernent of f111
naterial, please include that infornatlon in your perEit application.
Since issuance of a Federal pernlt may require state review or approval,
lt is inportant thaE you ploEptly provide the State enough infornation to
evaluace your appllcatlon. You nay also need corr.nty and/or clty perDits. It
would be advisable to nake lnqulries early ln your planning process.
If you have eny questions, call Yvonne Berner at (612) 220-0355.
fr 4h,,*a**-
fn wopat
0thief , negularory Branch
Const:uctlon Operatlons Divlslon
,Qi.[i[:iir t!r
.1u_ .t , !':i
LliiY .'i i.i:' ,' '':
"-
r'
Ra.ipt # 35t00
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
690 COULTEB DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
(612) 937-1900
DEVELOPMENT REVIEW APPLICATION
OWNER : Rich ard C. Ersbo Ri chard C. 0rtenbl ad
19pp699.1211 Lake Luc Rd 1351 Lake Luc Rd.
tJayzata , l,!i nnesota 55391
an assen,an assen,
5s331I'lN 55317 MN
TELEPHONE (Day time)47 3- 1231 TELEPHONE:(evenin sI 44s-827e
'1. _ Comprehensive Plan Amendment 11. -X_ Subdtuision
2. _ Conditional Use Permh 1Z X Vacation ol Row/Easements
3. _ Grading/Excavation Permit 13._ Variance
4. _ lnterim Use Permh 14. X Wetland AtEration Permit
5. X Nolificarion Signs
6. _ Planned Unit Development I6._ Zonlng Ordinance Amendment
7. -f Rezoning 17. _ Filing Fees/Atromey Cost
8.Sign Permirs 18._ Consullant Fees
9. Sion Plan Revlew
10. Site Plan Beview
perty ovrners within 500 teet of lhe bour.:!:ie3 ol the property must
he appllcatlon.
Twenty-six lull slze fotded coples ot the ptanr musl be submltted.
8y2'X 11' Reduced copy of transparency lor each phn .heet.
A list ol all pro
lncluded with t
r NOTE ' When multiple applications ate processed, lhe approprhte fee shall be charged lor each appticatior1.
Terry ll. Forbord, Vice President
APPLICANT: Lundqren Bros. Construction, Inc.
ADDBESS. 935 E. l,layzata Boulevard
15._ Zoning Appeal
TOTALFEE3 1,905.00
PBOJECT NAME
The
Ortenbl ad Ersbo
Property abuts the 50uth side of LaTe fuc I{-oad and is approxima tely 500
LOC 4T1gp feet l,lest of Powers Boulevard (County Road 17 in No rth ern Chanhassen.
v
)
LEG AL DESCRtpTtoN The East Three Quarters (3/4).of the Northeast Quarter (NE 1/4) of the
Southwest Quarter larver County, Hi n nes ota ,
EXCEPTING THEREFR0I4 Ersbo Addjtion, accordin to the recorded pl at thereof o n fi le and ofts 1 and 2,rec0r in t ff ce of t e o unty ec0r 8rr a rver 0un 'I nnes o ta and Lo
B'lock l; Lots 1, 2 and 3, Block 2; and Outlots A and B, Ersbo Addition, according to
the recorded plat thereof on fiie and of record in the office ot t he County Reco rde r
Carver County, Hi nnesota.
P.BESENT ZONING RSF and R.R.
REOUESTED ZONING RST
PBESENT LAND USE DESIGNATION Res i denti al - 1ow density
HEOUESTED LAND USE DESIGNATION Res identi a l - 1ow density
BEASON FOB THIS BEOUEST For the devel op ment of a new Neighborhood Cormunity.
This application must be completed in full and be typewrinen or clearly printed and must be accompanied by all information
and plans required by applicable Cily Ordinance provisions. Before tiling this application, you should confer wilh lhe
Planning Department to determine the specilic ordinance and procdural requirements applicable to your application.
This is ro cerlify that I am making applicarion lor the described action by the City and that I am responsible tor complying
with all City requirements with regard to this request. This application should be processed in my name and I am the party
whom the City should contact regarding any matter perlaining to this applicalion. I have attached a copy o, proof of
ownership (either copy of Owner's Duplicate Certiricate ol Title, Abstract of Title or purchase agreement), or I am the
authorized person to make this application and the fee owner has also signed this application
I will keep myself informed of the deadlines for submission of material and the progress of thls apdication. I tunher
understand that additional ,ees may be charged lor consulling fees, feasibnity studies, etc. wtth an estimate prior to any
aulhorization to proceed with the sludy. The documents and information I have submitled are true and cortect to the best
of my knowledge.
I also understand that after the approval or granting of the permit, such permits shall be lnvalid unless they are recorded
against the title to the property for which the approval/permh ls granted within 120 days with the carver county Recorder's
Otflce and the original document returned to City Hall Records
rd, Vice Pres i dent 6177 lS7
Signature ot Applicant Date
e.AJ,/
Ba rha ra 0rtenhl ad &chard C. Ersho ! 6/17/9)
Signature ol Fee Owner
Application Received on Fee Paid
DatE
$l ,905 .00 Receipt No. _
This application wlll be considered by the Planning Commisslon/Board of Adiustments and Appeals on July 17, 1991 -
CH.[NIIIE$El{
690 COULTER DBIVE. PO. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(512) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
II{EMORANDI,'!,I
TO: Planning Conrnission
FROM: Paul Nrauss, planning DirectorJo Ann Olsen, Senior planner
DATE: July 12, 1991
SURT: Lundgren Brothers/Ortenblad/Ersbo Proposal
PROPOSAL
The.applicant is proposing to subdivide 30.3 acres into 32 singlefanil,y lots. The net acreage of the site is 26.3 acres afterrernoving street.right-of-way and wetrand areas. The density of theproposed subdivision.is L,22 units p€r acre-gross and 1.4 uiits peracre-net. The applicant is proposing to suuaiviae the Ersbo lndOrtenblad -property. _ Both the Ersbo and Ortenblad property containa :119+e. farnily residence which will be rnaintain"& ai pait of thesubdivision. The lots 32 will be serviced by one i"o! f*f i"street and one cuI-de-sac. The rots ar1 exceed ltre nininrdn is,ooosquare feet of area with an average lot size of 30,9OO. square feet.
The site contai,ns nany physical features rrhich restrict thedevelopment of the property. There are seven wetlands located onthe site. The largest wetland contains 5.3 acres and is a class Awetland protected by both the City and the DNR. fhe rernaining awetland areas are Class B wetlands ranging in size from 2.2 acresto .06 acres. The site also contains heavily vegetated areas,steep slopes and, as p-reviously neationed, existing- ling1e fanilyresidences. As a result of the existing features o1 the-site, thLlocation of the public street and lots resurts i.n several variancesto the 75 foot setback from the wetlands. The Dajority of thevariances to the 75 foot setback are located along t'he so-uth sideof the cul-de-sac and the south side of the large class A rretland.The applicant is proposing to completely fill bne of the Class Bwetlands for street irnprovernents, to fill a portion of the otherwetlands to allow for the creation of lots and buirdable areas andfill a portion of the C1ass A wetland to allow for the Location ofthe public street on the east side of the Class A wetland.
CITY OF
Lundgren/Ortenbl adlErsbo ProposalJuly 12, 1991
Page 2
PROJECT DISCUSSION
Staff has been working intensively vith Lundgren Bros. Constructionto develop and refine plans for this subdivision over a period ofnonths. The design process for this site is unusually conplexgiven the difficult terrain, presence of numerous uetlands, desireto protect existing homes and incorporate thern into the plat and adesire to remain sensitive to the environnent and tovard creatinghigh guality residential hone sites. The design process
accelerated recently vhen it became clear that Lundgren had a needto create these lots as soon as possible and are striving to have
hone sites available prior to the end of the 1991 construction
season.
Prior to the submittal of this proposal for review, staff and the
developer had a long discussion as to rrhether or not this should be
brought in as a straight subdivision or as a PUD. At that time, we
believed it would be highly desirable to develop this as a PUD
since the flexibitity that would be provided could be used to neetthe goals described above by providing flexibility in setbacks,street widths, etc. However, as you are aware, staff is workingwith the Planning Conroission to develop a new PUD ordinance. The
new PUD ordinance has been adopted and is in place, except for thesection with deals specifically with single farnily residential
development. Given the uncertainty of the status of the ordinance,staff reluctantly advised the developer to bring this proposal in
under straight RSF standards. The developer did rrhat he rras
requested to do and applied for a subdivision. It nas only after
rre lrere able to review the finaL proposal that we concluded thatprocessing the request as a straight subdivision would raise
nunerous issues. These issues are described further beloht.
Holrever, at the eleventh hour, after extensive discussions, we
concluded that this reaIly shoul.d be brought fonrard as a PUD but
lre wanted to provide the Planning comnission uith an opportunity to
review the proposal and digest the issues involved in an infornalnanner. Thus, we deterroined that rre would keep this iten on the
agenda as a discussion matter wherein the conplex issues pertainingto the design of this proposal can be explored and the Connission
can obtain infornation fron the engineer and wildlife biologist whoparticipated in its design. We therefore, took the action ofnotifying the neighbors that the official public hearing is goingto be rescheduled to Auqust 7th and the JuIy 17th neeting wou).d beheld for informational purposes onIy.
WETI,AND ISSUES
The location of the wetLands and desire to protect and irnprove thenis reaIIy the driving force behind nost of thls discussion. As youare aware, there is a large class A DNR protected wetland locatedinmediately south of Lake Lucy Road that is highty visible. What
Lundgren/ortenblad/Ersbo ProposalJuly 12, 19 91
Page 3
tnay not be as clear is the fact that there is also a large C1ass Bwetland on the southern part of the property rrhich extends northfrorD Lake Lucy, plus several snaller wetLands and wetland fringesthat are scattered throughout. The ultinate result of thesevetlands is that it is virtually inpossible to develop a reasonablesubdivision on this property witfrout soroe trade-offi. ?he trade-offs as envisioned by staff include protection for the DNR wetLand,nitigation for the olher crass B wetiands provided ersewlere on trresite in the for:Itr of ner.r'uetland expansio-ns and improvenents. Inprincipal, this is not Duch difierent fron nolrnal practice,however, the realit-y is somewhat different due to the nag-nitude oithese requests and the issues involved. To his crldit, thedeveloper retained professional assistance in designing this pran.The design goal of this effort was to provide inpr-oven'ents to theDNR wetland and inprove -watsr qu-aIity of others bLfore dischargingdown stream. Evidence obtained during this analysis indicated thatthe .1arge DNR rretla-nd is- actually seriousJ.y darnaged by highnutrient roaded runoff. chenistry ltudies of the waier iiaicai,ethat it is virtuarly devoid or dead of Eost life forros it should besupporting to have a fu1l diversity of wildlife. The proposalca1ls not only for pretreatnent of rrater prior to dischaige- intothe wetland, but also raising the rsater level of the wetiand toal.low rnore biological diversity to occur.
staff is reasonably confortable with the trade-off concept proposedby the appricant in principal and ne berieve that this iuu-aivisionwould be a hiqhly desirable project. Houever, there are severalpoints that are being refinet at tfre .present. tine and hopefullyrrill be resolved before this natter i! brought back to fou toiformal action. The first matter is that there -is an intrusibn intothe DNR wetland for the public street. Although this is beingconpensated, staff is asking that every atternpt be nade toelininate this intrusion. The intrusion of the roid in this arearesults fron a desire. to protect a wooded hillside and a belief bythe applicant and his consultants that the net affect of theiroprovements that are -being Eade for this netlanit wirr be positive.Holrever, upon reviewing the plans, we have concluded €hat thisintrusion can likely b? significantly reduced and possiblyeliminated and lre are asking that this bl done.
The second uratter concerns the wetland trade-offs. Normal practicein ttle past was to create sedinentation ponds and balsins asphysically separate ent.ities which then discharge uater into thewetlands. These ponds have not proven as effeCtive as we trouldlike in rernoving nutrients fron stbrn water and there are neir ponddesigns- thet ar-e supposed to be doing a better job. The currentproposal carrs for use of ponds able to renove noie of the nutrientIoad. The proposal being worked on by the applicant rrould havetlese-ponds actualLy be constructed as what wouid functionatry andvisuarry be part of the wetrand system. The appricant,s consurtant
Lundgren/Ortenblad/Ersbo ProposalJuIy 12, 19 91
Page 4
wj.1l be on hand to discuss this further but it is their opinionthat this can produce a higher quality of stom vater runoff than
has previously been the case. Staff is excited by this concept butis in the prouess of getting more infornation to 6ee how these look
from a visual standpoint, if they will in fact be functional partsof the wetland and can be counted towards the no-net-loss
require:nent or if they would be counted as retention basins as they
have been in the past.
PUD
VARIANCES
Although extensive atteurpts have been Dade to elininate then, there
are variances that result fron this proposal. Use of standard RsF
setbacks has produced a series of variances for setbacks on a
number of lots. In spite of the fact that these lots are generally
oversized, with an average Iot area of 30r900 square feet(including rretland areas platted onto the lot and protected by
easernents), the variances result fron the large nunber of wetlandsthat make it irnpossible to develop this site without being infairly close proxj.nity to then. By the applicantrs count, there
Lrere 11 J,ots having setback variances. we believe that this nurnberis actual-Iy somewhat higher since the applicantrs engineer figuretl
wetland setback variances frorn the existing wetland areas and not
frorn the expanded wetland that will result fron the raising of the
DNR wetland by 2 feet or fron the rretlands that vill be created asmitigation strategies. At this point, it is unclear as to what thetotal number of variances vilI be but it is clear that there is asufficient nurnber of then that ue are unconfortable rrith this being
reviewed as a straight subdivision. It Dust be stressed, houever,that these variances do not inply that this project has excessivedensity or that it is poorly desigmed. In fact, rre believe thereverse is true. The density is guite 1o!,r and the design is
extreneLy sensitive to the goals that have been established forthis site.
Having reached this point in our analysis, it vas clear to staffthat this project j.s one that is ideally developed under the pUD
ordinance. The PUD ordinance will give us flexibility to nodifystreet right-of-way, front yard setbacks and rretland setbackstandards so that a reasonable nu0ber of hone sites can bedeveloped in an environrnentally sensitive nanner. In someJ.nstances, the flexibility provided by the pUD t ould be used tolower the rear yard wetland setback standard. In other6, thestreet right-of-way and front yard setback would be decreased to
nove the home further from the wetland than rrould be possible undernormal zoning requirenents.
Lundgren/Ortenbl adlErsbo ProposalJuly 12, 1991
Page 5
The wetland enhancement progran being developed for thisproject is one of the rnost advanced, if not the n-ost aavancea,we have dealt with in Chanhassen to date. They are not onlylooking to avoid the rrretlands directly or to piovide no-net'-loss- for any intrusions but they are also ltoking to makesignificant irnprovenents into the quality of the weflands andhave invested in the studies and planJ required to do so.Under the PUD, hre ui11 be varying sohe of the rear yardsetbacks below normal requirenents where necessary froh adesign standpoint. Houever, in return we wiII be iequiringthat a natural strip be naintained around the perineter of th;rretland so that soA larrns are not created iight up to thewetland fringe. As a philosophical point at a staff ievel, wehave often discussed the validity of a 25 foot setback or anyother setback for that natter if at the sane tine we allow.lproperty owner to put a sod 1a1"'n adjacent to the wetland.W!:l- !!i= is done, . there is no fringe vegetation to supportwildli_fe and organic lawn debris and cheiicals run air-eltfyinto the lrater body without any filtration. The pUD gives u's
2.
Since r.re are in the niddle of developing a ne!, pUD ordinance, itrrould be worthwhile to look at the inplications of using. the pUD
ordinance as currently drafted at thia tine. The secti5n of theordinance that originally. dealt specifically with single fanilydevelopment has been eliminated and not yet replaced, while allother sections of the ordinance are in place at this tine. Uponcloser- exarnination, we do not believe that this in anyway affectsour _ability to use the pUD ordinance on this proposal, evln thoughit is single farnily developnent. We say this- since the fornerSection 20-504 was specifically designed to deal with lots beint'created under 15,000 square feet in area. As noted above, th6average Iot size of 3O,9OO square feet on this proposal is overtwice the usually standard. Furthernore, we 6el iieve that theimproved PUD ordinance as it exists gives us'sufficient flexiuiriiyto handle this developnent as a puD and creates such standards a!we feel appropriate.
While we clearly believe handling this project as a pUD is anappropriate .way- to go, the question wiLl- inLvitably be asked bysome -rrwhat is the city getting out of this?rr f ha-ve never beeirentirely cornfortable rrith.this -question being posed in this ,.rrrr"r,however, there are a series of direct reneiils that uould accruefron handling this project in this Danner.
1. Lundgren has a .justified reputation as being a high qualitydeveloper creating projects that are environrnelntally- serisitiv!and excellent residential neighborhoods. We have first handexperience in our comrnunity oi this expertise and we believehaving thern do additional projects in our comrnunity is adirect benefit.
we nust continue to stress that the purpose of this PUD is notto support undersized lots. Rather we are getting oversizedlots. Houever, we are also getting a nodicum of clustering
stenming from the deviations fron nornal setback standardsthat would be allowed under the PUD. By this we nean that the
disturbed areas used to acconrnodate a house, driveway and larrn
areas will be sonevhat lrore compacted than what would be the
case with nornal zoning and conpliance with normal setback
standards. For example, if we utilize a snaller street right-
of-way and a reduced front yard setback, the disturbed areawill be clustered cl.oser to the paved street than would be the
case with a fuI1 size right-of-lray and full size setback.
The subdivision ordinance is in the process of being nodifiedto require inproved landscaping, however, this is not yet inplace. Lundgren typically does an adnirable job of
landscaping their projects and has indicated to staff that
they intend to do so on this site as we11. However, the PUDdoes give the city the flexibility to require these
irnprovernents as part of the developnent contract which vouldprovide assurances that the city is in a position to review
and approve what is ultinately placed on the property.
5
6 The Ersbo plat does not represent an optinal subdivision inspite of having been revised twice. The short stubby cul-de-
sac with lots fronting directly on Lake Lucy Road, abutting upagainst a sharp hill line will result in lower quality lots
and the placement of a road or private driveway iurmediatelyadjacent to a rretland. The Lundgren proposal wouldsignificantly improve this situation by incorporating thisarea i.nto a high quality subdivision, locate the road furtheraway fron the rretland and provide an inproved design forsediment and nutrient reduction of storn water fl.owing intothe wetland.
SI]U},TARY
In concLusion, it is our opinion that the city would best be servedby having this development. pursued as a pUD iather than a straightsubdivision. We are seeking planning Cornmission coDDent on tiismatter as well as your comments on the developnent proposal itseLf.
Lundgren/Ortenbl adlErsbo ProposalJuly 12, 19 91
Page 6
the flexibility to deal with.this issue up front.
3. Tree preservation will be enhanced above rrhat wouid nornally
be expected in a typical subdivision. We believe rre normallydo a fairly good job with preserving trees in subdivisions,
however, ue uould be able to use the flexibility of the PUD
ordinance to help work around tree preservation areas that are
des ignated.
Lundgren/Ortenblad/Ersbo ProposalJuIy 12, 1991
Page 7
In our opinion, the current. proposal cones very close to being anoptinal design for this site. rnprovenents and nodificationssuggested by staff are not naj or deviations fron this proposaL anddue.to the co*rperative relationship we have with this alplicant, webel,ieve a very high quality developrnent will result.
PIanni n3
,luly 17,
Commission Heet i n9
7997 - Page 24
PauI Krauss presented the staff report on
Emmings: Does the applicant want to make
Ter r y?
this item.
some kind of pr esentati on?
Terry Forbord: M)' name is Terry Forbord with Lundgren Bros.,935 EaFt
l^layzal"a BIvd. in tlayzata, Hinnesota. t,ith me this evening are a number of
people who will help me hopefully answer some questions for you and for
anyboCy else who may be here to hear what we have to say. Mr. Rick Sathre, -our consulting eng.ineer , Hr. Frank Svoboda, tJildlife Biologist and l'1r .
Roger carpenter urho's a Limnologist. They are with the firm Braun
Intertec. PauI pretty much has said a lot of the thinss that are relevant
to this proposal so I t,on't get too much into those things because I would -
like the people lhat are here with me this evening who are very weIIqualified to deal with the specific issues ' talk to you a Iittle bit and
then hopefu]Iy you'll have some questions or if there's anv other
discussion we can answer your questions. But I tlould Iike to just touch
upon a couple things briefly. You may recal] a number of months back I uras
before you with a gentleman named Mr. John Shardlow. tle talked a lot about -PUD's because I know the City of Chanhassen was ]ooking very strongly at
amending their Code and their ordinances relative to PUD's. If you recall
in that discussion there was a lot of discussion over what is a PUD and
what is it for. Typically there's a misconcePtion of what it is and what
it js ueed for. It doesn't necessarily always primarily have to do with
density or Iot sizes or things like that. However, it may and it doesn't
necessarily have anything to do r.rith trade-offs or anything else. However, -it may. tjhen we first met with the staff many, many months ago, even
before we secured the development rights to this property- tJe've had
numerous discussions about this because ue kneur it r^ras a very, very
sensiLive area but that's why r.re had selected it. l.,e've }earned over 22years that our customers like to live in areas ulhere there is uetlands andthere's wildlife and there's neat things to look at so lre typically try tofind the most beautiful sites b,e can and then do the best we can u,ith them. -And so in working brith staff it was very evident to all of us. staff and
ourselves and our consultants that this u,as a classic piece of property to
be developed as a planned unit development. But because of the things thecity uras going through in redeveloping their ordinance and because -of the
various timeframe that hre were on and thE: timeframe has only to do |riththe fact that the ueather in HinnesoLa g-.es you only about 5 months of
h,uildable season. It was mutually agreed upon, relunctantly by all of us
that maybe the best thing to do was to proceed under standard subdivision
regs which PauI has already described. That b,as a dismay to all of us
because this is a classic piece of property for a Planned Unit Development. -Because it has natural amenities that should be treated very carefully.
INFORI'4AL DISCUSSION :
LUNDGREN BROS .,/ORTENBLAD,/ERSBO . PROPERTY ZONED RR. RURAL RESIDENTIAL AND
RSF. RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY.LOCATED EAST OF POI.IERS BOULEVARD AND SOUTH
OF LAKE LUCY ROAD:
A. PRELIi.IINARY PLAT TO SUBDJVIDE 30+ ACRES TO CREATE 37 SJNGLE FAI'.IJLY
LOTS -
B. I.IETLAND ALTERATION PERHIT TO ALTER,/FILL CLASS B I.'ETLANDS.
Planning
July 77,
Comm i ss i on l.1eet i n9
1 991 - Page 25
But uncer standard subdivision regs you can't. rt's literalty i.mpossibleto do it. Unless you come in and ask for numerous variances which kind offlies in the face of xhat everybody's really trying to do- So after !,,e
made an hones! effort to make this t^ror k with standard regs, it becameevident that He should withdraw. tJe should reconsider and then come beforeyou and recommend that this taould be a Planned Unit Development becausethat will allor,r us to bury things like, it's not so much clustering as itis maybe varying a front yard setback. Varying a street r^ridth here and.there because it may save a significant tree or it may save from filling ar.retlanC urhich would be al.lowable under the DNR and the Army. Corps.Hopefully Lre can modify some of those things by varying some of the strictthings that are normal.Iy required under a standard .subdivision regulations.
So that's *hy we have pursued it. And I've attended enough meetings thatvou've had relevant to those discussions that it seems ljke this is verymuch in the spirit of things I've been hearing from the planning commissionand the City Council and staff for years here. And f must say, because fknow staff is too modest to admit it, but I must say that they,ve beenvery, very interested in this and helpful to us trying to solve problems.
They haven't in any way tried to impede us. They've said here's someprobJ.erns, uhat can b,e do to fix it and they've been very helpful in that.Because it's such a sensitive site and because we're not experts at thesemany things Iike wetlands and uildl.ife, we pursued to find the best peoplewe could in the region to help us and assist us. And so we have hired thepeople that are here tonight to do that. Through the process ofresearching this site we found out some things that were someb,hatsurprising to us. That the ma jor r^,etland that is on that site is, and lruse it in lay terms but it's very close to death because of very manythings nhich thev r^rill address. so thdt kind of changed our course of whatL,e Here tryjng to do. We realized not only .dere LJe 9oin9 to be coming inhere and trving to creale a sensitive development. A nice place to live.
[.Je were going to have to do some fixing of what man had al:-eady damaged andman ulas the problem here. over the Iast 3o-so years. l.that man has donehas been very damaging to that site and we're going to try to fix that. Atthis time I'd like to introduce Hr. Rick Sathre, He's the consultingengineer and planner on this proposed neighborhood community and he cangive you a Little background of the proposal. And this is conceptual only-This js not with the items that Paul has tal ked about. Reduced front yardsetbacks and the reduced street ulidths. Those things, those arerefinements that would be made in our submission of the Planned Unit
Development documents but it would look very similar to idhat you're seeinghere.
Rick Sathre: Good evening. The red blob on here is the site. This isLake Lucy Road along the northern edge of the site. This is County Road 17or Por.Jers Blvd. to the east. Lake Lucy and Lake Ann. It's about a 30 acresite. Just slightly over thaL. Looking a little closer. Zooming in alittle closer to the site you see again the property's bounded by the red.
The Ersbo parcel is at the northeast corner. That's on the Ersbo property,
on the half section maps right now appears the first plat that the Cityapproved. SubsequenLly there ulas a second plat r.tith a different streetconfiguration approved. The Ortenblat property, the soulhr.resterly property
of this land is still without. any division. t^le're combining the Lwo. Youcan see to the west the larger rural parcels and to the east and to thesouth and to the north the urbanized subdivisions around Lhe siLe. This
Plannir,3July !7,
C o,mn'i ss i o n Meet i n9
799r - Fage 26
isn't the world's best graphic but this is the City's aerial photo Hithcontour.s overlaid on it. The blue boundary is the approximate si.teboundary. Here on toF of a hill is the Ersbo home and farther to the
soulhuresL is the Ortenblat home. Here's the Ortenblat driveuay. Long,long driveway coming back to this house. The Ersbo driveway doesn't ihow'up nearly as r.rell but it follows this path. In the north central portionof the site there s a large open water wetland area. That's the DNRwetland that you see from Lake Lucy Road. t,ay down in the south portion ofthe property and straddlins the southerly boundary is another Class Bwetland in your ordinance that appears on this site. There are severalothers. Four other small wetland bodies aLso, This is a copy of the
boundary survey of the parcel and it shor^rs again the houses. The telo
houses are in red on this drawing. The large green boundary here is thatnortherly wetland and this one is a southerly wetland. There's also, thereal constraining thing about this property is that the wetlands are spreadout so much. If it was all one big body, it'd be easier to uork around.But besides the two wetlands that have always appeared on your maps, thereare four other small ones. There's a finger of uletland south and east ofthe Ersbc horne. Another one due east and then tr.lo small little pockets upat Lake Lucy Road which are separaLed from this main body by the drivewaysinto the two hones.
Erhart: Rick, does the water flow from one wetland to the other?
Rick 9athre: Yes. On the ground ue've found a shallotJconnecting this one !o this one. The southerly uetland
r"rould guess it's 5 or 6 or 7 f eeL. This one's Louler.
ditch right hereis lor.rer by, I
Erhart: In a storm, where does the water go in that uret I a nd?
Rick SeLhre: Right now, before Lake Lucy Road or before there was a cityproject to upgrade Lake Lucy Road we believe that the water drained to thesoulh out of this ditch. tlhen the Lake Lucy Road uras upgraded there was apipe put under the street up here. Catch basins in the street and a pipeunderneath. Right noH water could go out to the north or to the south andI thi nk it does.
Erhart: And you're proposing to raise the h,ater level of that pond?
Rick Sathre: Yes.
Erhart: t^lell obviously you're going to build up the south end. Am Igetting ahead of you a little bit here?
Rick Sathre: htell you're getting a little ahead of me but b,e're talkingabout taking the water out of this wetland to the south but ue're talkingabout in effect damming the wetland up by filling this ditch or eliminatingthe ditch and plugging the northerly outlet so u,e can hold more uraLer. inthere. Get more voLume in the wetland. H:i;e water volume for severalreasons.
Emmings: Okay, how will the Nater then 9o to the south?
Planning
Ju)y 77,
Cornmission l'4eetin9
t99l - Page 27
Rick Sathre: lt would drain through a series of storm sewers and wetlands.The existin3 r.r:tlands and ones that we're proposing to create or enhance.
Terrv Forbcrc: There's qui!e an extensive comprehensive system that we'vedeveloped to accomplish aII those things and we can get into that ingreater deatil if you'd like.
Rick sethre: This just recaps basically urhat ure're doing. l.Jhat we uJereProposing to do if it hadn't been recommended noH that we go back and lookat PUD. t^Je had been thinking that we uould do an RSF subdivision uriththese standard setbacks. 30 front, 30 rear and 10 side and the lanJ rgnds'itself well to creating 37 single famiry lots on tittle over 30 acres r.riLhan average lot area of about 30,OOO square feet or over 3O,OOO square feet.The density of that is about 1.2S units per acre. This is the concept planthat we're working on refining right now. rf you'.lI remember the ErsboPlats that vou've reviewed in Lhe past in this corner had different streetconfisurations. The significantly different thing about uhat ue're doingnow is t:='re trving to get a street that aligns uith nrlingion court rbelieve it is on the north side of Lake Lucy Road to come into this siteand go through the site past the Ersbo home to provide a large loop throughboth properties. The difficultv here, one of the things r.re,re working onnow is trving to r.ror k on the curvature of this street ind tishtenins i]p thealignment of the road. Haybe working on Darrowing the road ior a distanceto sneak through or sensitivelv pass between the iteep hilr and thewetland. That's one of the major things that we're uorking on right now.Trving to cio that sensi.tivelv. over here in this portion 6f th" propertithere's sorne beautiful trees and here to we'd like to find a sensitive traythrough that tree stand with the road so we,re r.lorking on, through the pU6provisions we'd be working on some refinements to this plan to sensitively9o through that area as r^rell. once you get back into tire southerly portionof the property, we don't have steep slope constraints anymore. r.Je don'thave tree consLraints anymore but uhat we have down there is wetlands andthev're constraining as r.rell. Here's a graphic that shours ihat subdivisionsuperimposed on the existing lotting pattern in the area so you can get anicjea, f eel f or how the streets line up r.,ith streets "lse,.lr,ere and how thelots would back up towards other parcels. I guess you'd have to study thatone for a while to see the real important features of it. .This is agraphic that shows, the red boundaries on this plan are the uretlandboundaries. Braun rntertec, their technicians h,ent into the fierd andphvsically staked the boundaries of the six u,etland areas. our surveyorsat sathre-Berquist went out behind them and located the stakes and thenr.le've drawn them on the plan. Drawn the rines. connected the dots if youwill and so those red lines rePresent those boundaries of the r.retlands asthev exist. The blue areas are upland areas noul uhich we would propose toturn into wetland. some of these areas r"rould be, this rittle blue area andthis one are brand new wetland areas tha! uould be used for sedimentation.They'd be water treatment basins. Trying to trap some of the nutrients andthe sediment that was heading tor.rard the large r.letland. He,d also be usingthis area on the northr.rest corner for the'same. purpose. To trap as much aswe can of the bad things in the water before it gets to the r,uetiand. Thisbasin on the Lrestern boundary of the site and alio this new blue area plusthis portion of the existing wetland, ule,re talkins about, we'reinvestigating the logistics of creating new wirdtiie ponds. New wetlandsthat have a very diverse character. Have a varied edge to them and a nice
PIanni ng
July 77,
Cornmission l.,leet in9
7991 - Page 28
bottom topography so we encourage different plant grouJth. So three of thewetlands that we would be draining actively through r,lith storm ser.rer , we'd
have a ljttle djfferent character. These would be very natural looking
wetlands we hope. tluch better than urhat. the site has right now and the
sediment ponds would be more of a functional , a man made treatment system.
Rick Sathre: Here? Or there?
Erhart: Both places. That's
gradual ly. It 's al I goi ng to
just shows r.,here Lhe edge is or is it
be one?
Rick Sathre: I guess the ulay I see iL, and I think we're stil] tlorking on
how it should look but around the periphery of this DNR L,etland there is a
fairly gradual slope. A lot of the slope it's very gradual. So the trav I
see it, that edge would continue up and once you got beyond the uretland
boundary, then there'd Le a rolled slope back down.
Erhart:3o you see those being seParate from the existing wetland then?
Rick Sathre: weII we need to sepaYate them Physicallv because of the
function that we're trying to Promote in these. tle're actually trying to
use them to trap the sediment. So ue don't want to intermingle them.
Erhart: HoH is tha! different from what ule've done in the Past?
Kraussi ThaL's Lhe thing. I think there's something that needs to be
touched on here and possibly it's something that Frank Svoboda can touch
on. Functionally there needs to be a seParation for the flow between the
t!.ro areas for this thing to work. visually ure want this to work as a unit. -
It-'s going to be so close and. . . indicated, there's some design where the
barrier is at the u,rater level . We can have wetland vegetation on the
property. There's not going to be a urall. so it would look like a...sort -of wetland with different areas when it's al] said and dona. It's not
9oin9 to be this standard, uniform, recLangular, excavated retention Pondoff in the corner someplace. It will look from a distance or look from
being there as though you're talking about a single wetland.
Erhart: Okay. l.lhy is this
uJhat you just descr ibed?
9oin9 to work better to clean the water than
Erhart: Rick, car' you throw that back up again. It looks like there's a
high ground betr.reen your sediment pond and the existing C]ass A or is it in
real ity
Terry Forbord: You're raising really good questions and part of thepresentation, it's a step by step process, as ue uraLk through that you'Il
hear answers to that. Just one more item to address that. The
conservation districL, the conservation zone that PauI spoke of thit would
surround that wetland is going to be somewhere between 10 and 2O feet.
Right not^r uhat we're determining is Hhat is the optimum amount. That's
very hard to measure because that depends on the plant types and things
like that but because of that'and emergent vegetation that r.riII occur in
the wetland area, you won't even be able to see that. It will look ]ike... -wetland.
PIanning
JUIY )/,
Comr,ission Meet i n9
7991 - Page 29
Rick saLhre: I susFect you'd see a change in plant Iife. you'd have adifferen! pIanI- species there than you r.lould inside this area or justinsice l-,e:e a little t,it. I gupss as ]ong as I,m on this, I didn't talkabout, a minute ago about uhere we,re intruding on the r.retlands and Ishould do that. starting up here, in order to get a road into the site r.reneeded to impac! unfortunately either this b,etrand or this little tiny one.[.Je're making a consci.ous decision that if Ne had to choose that we shou]dbe impacting this small littre basin. Not this one. so ure're showing af j.Iling of about half of that little area which is a very small area. Atenth of an acre or less than that. AIso up here in the northeast cornerthere's a small Iitt]e wetland area. r think Frank uirr talk about r.rhxthev're there- But anywav we're talking about eliminating that onealtogether. As uJe are proposi.ng to eliminate this basin which is straighteast of the ortenblat home and ure're also showing some encroachment int6fingers of this southerlv wetland. An item of mijor interest and majorwork has been the effort to minimize or eliminate the impact on the largewetland bv this road. As r said before, we,re working to try to minimiieor Leseen anyi,Jay the impact on the upland grading heri. There's steepslopes and trees in the upland. Trying to ba],anie that out r.riLh someintrusion Perhaps into rhe reed canary grass that surrounds the open braterr^retlanci. tle're r^rorking on the logistics of that. I guess the graphic Iillshare with you right nox is the topographic map. The significait t..; - --
areas on the site- North of the Ersbo home on this northerly,facing slopethere are a grea! many dead elms unfortunately. There,s also otherspecies. As vou get east of the Ersbo home and then down in the southerly,southeasterlv part of the site there's mature trees. t^re'd ,ant to preserveas man.y- cf those as we can. East of the ortenblat driveuray next to theuetland there are significant trees as urerl as jusL north of the ortenblathorre. Eut the absolutelv best trees on the siti are *uy up here in thiinorthrrest corner. Large oaks and other rarge trees. one of the things thePUD will let us do r hope is lessen the right-of-way width and even lessenthe pavenent uidth PerhaPs for a uays to get throusir that aiea and minimizeour disruption. t^,ith that I'd like to turn it back to Terry.
Terry Forbord: Let me just touch upon a coupre of things here before rintroCuce the next individual . probably the easiest thing to do as far asthe development of these tuo combined sites trould be to cut alr the treesdoxn and lhen grade the entire site flat and we uourdn't have to worryabout any of the things we,re talkins about here tonight. Obviously thatmav be the most efficient thing but it certainly doesn't fit the spirit ofwhat we're all trying to achieve. The other thing that $Je,re trying toachieve here that we have consider obviously are the people who live therealready and who's property it is. Mr. Ersbo. he's Eoing to stay in hishome and he's going to live here so obviously ue have to be sensitive tohis wishes because he's going to be there. The same uiLh the ortenblats soall the phvsical constraints that exist on the si,te plus protecting theprivate propertv rights of lhe individuals so they can enjoy their quietenjovment of their propertv, made it a difficult site of where to put theroads anc deal r^rith all of these issues but r think as you can see by justthis exhibit right here, the different constraints were enormous in Lriingto make this work. At this time ld Iike to introduce Roger carpenter.He's a Limno].ogist and when we took Frank out as a consuliant to tell usabout these r.reLlands and what ue should and shouldn't do, the first commenthe made was, we.Il l1 tell vou right now this thing's real sick. He sa),s
Planning
Ju)y 77,
Commission Heeti n9
L997 - Page 30
there shc,uld be these types of vegetations around it. There should bethese types of vegetations in it. And that thing, for uhatever reasons is
cJ>'irE cr' \'er)' close t(, death, So we decided u,e'd better get somebody inwho's an expert at understanding why that occurs and take some tests. Have
them analyzed by an independent laboratory so h,e 're able to make some
recommendations and part of this development process will be able torestore the vitality that that wetland probably at one time had. Roger.
Frank Svoboda: Thanks Roger. I guess I've been, Terry's been houses
almost as long as f 've been in the business of doing wildlife management
and weLland studies. Over Lhe course of that time r.rhat l've learned is
that L,etlands are really a reflection of u,hat goes on in the surrounding
landscape so that the wetland is sort of a mirror or reflection of what
actually goes on in the upland that serves as a drainage area to feed that
uretland and provide it urith Hater. So the first thinS that ue always do
when we come up r.rith a situation like this, urhat may be some circuqstancesthat we don't really understand is that u,e take a look at the Iand ugehistory of a particular parcel of land ar': u,hat we discovered in this case
was that by goins through or going back and looking at the aerial photos,
the earliest one being 1937, r^re discovered that from 1937 through
approximetely sometime between 1937 and 1963 this area, the Iarge uretland,
tJetland {1 or the Dl'lR },etland had been croPped that entire period of time
and that's consistent wi.th this shallow hand dus ditch that connects this
Roger Carpenter: I'd just like to explain basically r.rhat I did to try !o
take a looL at the situation as it exists now and try to make someconclusions. tle went out and ue took some uater samples and had them
analyzed at a certified independent laboratory for a number of different
parameters that ue would normally look at in a urater body. The main thing -that came back was that it was extremely high in nutrients. Mainly
phospherous and nitrogen are the tulo that ure uould be cbncerned ulith. The
phospherous is the most important because that's a controlling factor for
algae growLh in lakes. So after takins a Iook at the results of the trater -
analysis, everything kind of fell into place and it kind of explained what
we ,Jere seeing there which was basically as Terry mentioned, the absence of
any emergent or subn,ergent type of plants. The entire uater surface is
covered with a mat of a very small plant called duck ureed and that's again
characteristic of an over enriched tyPe of environment that you would see
where one type of plant is able to dominant the situation to the exclusion -of other types of plants. The adverse effect of this is that we aren't
able to, or again the emergent tyPes and submergent tyPes of plants like
cattails or bullrushes are not able to gain a foothold. This mat of duck
weed thai covers everything shades out the other tyPes of Plants and it
also reCuces, L,ecause of the shade reduces the oxygen so that different
types of anirnals are not abundant in the hrater. The advantages of having
these ciifferent types of emergent and submergent tyPes of Plants is that
they are able to bind up this phospherous and nitrogen urithin the plant
body. tlithin the roots and the part of the plants that are slicking out of
the Hater'. It's able to reduce the nutrient loading that's in the water
and reduce the amounL of nutrients that are able to leave the site also so
that a more desirable type situation would be to have these, a more diverse
type of situation with the different types of plants ue're talking about so
with that I think I'll introduce Frank Svoboda urho urill talk about some of -the dj.fferent things that can be done to enhance this uretland area.
Planning
JUty )/,
Conrnission Meet i n9
1991 - Page 31
wet-Le:-ci Lasin ui jth this basin. And again this is a fairly commonoccurrence in the urbanizing areas uihere in the past farmers uranted to useperl-,a:s ti-,is rJetland for hay or for pasture and what they would do is lookfor e nearby wetland thal uras l6wer in elevation and then they'd dig ashallow ditch connecting the two r.retlands together. In fac! they may be insome insLances r^re've seen just a series of these shalloul interconnectingditches. Typically you'lI see these ditches are someuhere in theneighborhood of a couple of feet wide and 18 inches to 2 feet deep. One ofLhe things r.re did that we looked at for this particular ditch, collected asediment core. A soil sample to see how much sediment had accumulated inthis ditch and what we discovered was there was about 6 inches of sedimentthat had accumulated over the years and as'a resurt it acted as a dam andgraduallv because the water couldn't drain in this direction, it graduallyuater would start accumulating in the wetrand. t,hen we had the meetinglast ureek, one of the individuals that attended that meeting indicated thatas recently as L974 they actually had corn planted in this Netland and thatbefore thev could get in there to harvest that corn, this basin filred upwith *-ater because of heavy fall rains so they were unable to harvest thatcorn crop 1s 7974. so in effect what might appear to be a wetland that mayhave been around since the ).ast glacier came through in fact has beenmodified in the past. Has been exposed to agricultural activities. Landuse activilies that have changed it's character and in fact that activitytook place as recentlv as !974. l^lhat r ].rould like to do now is to jusibrieflv shcx vou some color overheads and ural k you through the r.retlinds onsite. ulctland x1 is the big DNR wetland to the north. Iake t_ucy Roadextencs righL in front of these houses and at the north end of thisrn'etland. l.Jetland fl1 , and these classif ication systems, even though theyIook Iike they're i ncomprehens ib le , they represent a hierachical codethat's d:veloped by the Fish and tJildlife Service for their nationaluer-land inventory. I won,t go into all the particulars "nd d"t.ila of thatclassification svstem other than it arlows fairrv detaired descriptions oij.ndividual u:eLland basins so that for example the Ot.l, ihe p-stands forpolestrian. That means it's a wetland. The oU stan;s for open h,ater. Gindic;,tes that it,s generally flooded. The EH stands for emergent. Thatmeans it hes emergent vegetation that actualry breaks above th! surface ofthe Hater. And this means that it's persistent. rt continues to stand. rtdcesn't fall down. The F indicates that it's general).y semi-permanentlyflooded representing this edge. And then the D indicaiei inat iL,s beenditched. Each of these classifications arlow that sort of ievel ofdescriptive detail. t^,e're basicalrv standing at the south end of ther.retland looking north. This fringe of vegetation around.the edge isprimarilv canarv grass. one of the things that r look for to indicatewhelher a wetland is healthy or not is the amount of vegetative diversitythat you observe. And I like Lo compare this to for eximple anagricultural cornfield. Agricultural cornfield has only one species on it.corn. And that's not very productive for urildlife. one of the theories orI guess it's more than a theory. A proven fact is that the morevegetative diversity you have the more productive a particular community isand that also applies to wetlands so the greater diversity of vegetationyou have, the more aquatic species and terrestrial species that you can geLutilizing that particular r.letland. so this uJas one of the factors thatindicated to me that there was something not quite right here- The otherthing uras that as I looked at that r.retland, there should have been moret:ildlife species present and certainly there were frogs present. t,e,ve
PIanrin3
JUJY !/,
Conrnission Heet i n9
1997 - Page 32
observed some jndividual mallards using that wetland. Occasionally
muskraLs ha,",e been observed ou! there but again as one of the residentsindicated at the meeting Last week, an individual who has lived in thisarea for 26 veays, he said over the Iast several years the productivitx ofthis wetland has declined. And he said in fact several years ago it wasnot at aII uncornmon to see numerous broods of ducklings on Lhis uretland and-
no!^r lAre ciid not se, a brood of ducklings or any broods. t,lhat r.le did seewere some individual birds. so u,e've had some verification as to uhat myoriginal hypothesis was and lhat uas that there was something not quiteright with this basin and that uas further confirmed uhen Roger r.tent outand did the r.rater chemistry analysis. Hetland 32 is the other large basinto the south and again supporting a monotypic stand of reed canary grass
and literally no open Eater in this basin uJhatsoever so it has limitedvalue as far as wildlife is concerned and one of the things ure would liketo do to this r.retland is create some open urater adjacent to it to improveit's diversity. I think uhat I'll do quickly just Lo. get you oriented touhere these differen! basins are as ue're tal.king about them is to put oneof the previous overheads up so that you can get your orientation. Okay
l.Jetland f 1, the DNR r.retland. The one with Lake Lucy Road in the
background . t,letland S2 is the large r.retland to the south. t^leLlands X3 and -*4 er€ Ne'. lanCs that €ssentially formed as a consequence of these two
driver^rays that were constructed. This is not at aII an unusual occurrence
uhen you har,,e road construction because either culverts start filline int:ith dirt and the drainage starts getting altered or else maybe elevationsaren't s.et rjght to begin with or just as a result of the construction ofthe ditch you start getLing some minor accumulation of water in these
road:ide ditches, The reason that these are called tretlands houever isthat they do satisfy the national criteria for delineating wetlands. That
is they have to have aquatic vegetation. They have to have hydric soils
and they have to have hydrology. And certainly these tuo basins do meet
those criteria but in terms of origin and function, they are really
marginal in terms of wetlands. Then the other tulo remaining u,etlands, Lhisis a basin just to the east of the Ortenblat residence. This one is
somehhat, actually topographically it's quite a bit hieher than t^,etland S2
and is connected by an overland drainage swale urhere after the brater
reaches a certain elevation in this wetland it kind of spills over and
seeps overLand into this basin so it's connected. This area that's shown
here is just an overland spilluay. So keeping in mind Lhen that t,letland S3is east of the Ersbo driver.ray. That l.letland S4 is h,est of the Ortenblatdriveway. *5 is east of the Ortenblat residence and then *6 is connectedto tJetland fl2. As I mentioned previously the ditch that was connecting
Uetland $1 and S2, the hand dug ditch, the ditch itself does not shou up
here at all because it is so shallow but there is some trees on either side_of the ditch and in places there urill be some canary grass and goldenrodbut basically it's very shallow. In fact on the one instance when Ivisited the site taas afLer quite a heavy rainfall and in spite of the facLthat we had probabl.y over an inch of rain or better, there ulas just some
seepage collected in the bottom of that C:jch and t^rithin 2 days when-Ireturned to the site, the bottom of that c.itch was entirely dry so thatditch is just marginally functional . tletland $3 is the one 'that r,ras eastof the Ersbo driveway. Again mostly canary grass. Some box elders aroundthe edge. Just basically a fairly marginal wetland. *4 is the r.,etland tothe west of the Ortenblat driveway. This wetland is a few feet higher thanthe main DNR wetland and again the canary grass surrounded by some box
Plannin.r
July 17,
Ccmrnission Meet i ng
1997 - Fage 33
elders b.:rt basjcelly jus! a relatively small, small basin. tJetland t5 hadsoi're r^ra!er standing in it. Had various weLland type shurbs. some uretlandtr€e3 ar,3 agairr the canary grass. Finally u,etland fl6, Basically verysimilar !o wetland 15. Some shurbs. tnetland type shurbs. Box elders andagain canary grass. so that's an introduction overvieu to .the wetlands onsite and what we're proposing to do as a result of the development, uhatthe det,eloper's proposing is that there wiII be more than just no net loss.In other uords, there wiII be more than an acre per acre replacement ofu,etlands impacted relative to the r.letlands replaced. So u.le'reaccomplishing a couple of things in this design. one is to deal uithimprovenent of two of the wetlands to create more wildlife habitat on lhesite and for three of the uretlands, as Rick indicated earlier, to use ihose!'ret.lands as Hater quality enhancement pools and that would be the wetland.PartiaIIy filled wetland west of ortenblat's driveway. The larger uretla;;to the east of the DNR uretland and uhat appeared as a square r.retlandstraddling that drainage ditch between *1 and *2. tJhat,s illustrated hereis the concept cal led the t^la L ker mode] and Dr . l.lal ker is a researcher whospecializes in urban storm water quality. urban storm water management andactually he djci some of his developmental wor k in the City of VandaisHeishts where this particular concept was tesLed out and applied. Thispond calleci the tJalker pond is actuallv, if you look at it'irom a plannedvier., , IooL: almost Iike a triangle. The u,ater comes into this triangle atthe shal lor,; end and ureaves at the wide end. Then it has a
-tepch at iheshallor,r end and then gradually gets deeper trith Lhe maximum dipth beingsome*here betr.reen 4 to 10 feet. And there's some fairly a variety ofmathesratical formuras that vou go through to calculai.-i,"* uis this pondis. Ho,. deep it's supposed to be and urhat size it needs to be in order toperform the water quality function. I ulon't get into that because that,snot mv area of expertise. There's other, Roger knor.rs tne-aetaits of thaibut basicatlv wha*- r do want to emphasize heie is that a slug of braterrenains in this pool and it remains in this poor ror-a ."ii"in minimumperiod of ti.rne. Long enough for the sediment pirticfes-to lettle outbecause rnost of the nutrients come into a body of water, -ihe phospherousParticularly comes into a wetland attached to particle. -"f
="ii're;;:
---
That's a primary means of transport. So if you ".n pi""io" a means forthose sedirnent particles to settle out. rf you ".n "ars. ihis uacer to sithere and remain calm and allou those small parti"i."-["-=.it1. to tt"bottom, then the next-lime vou get a major itorm ""eni-.nJ-i", get a ne!4s1u9 of water coming in, it pushes this cleansea "aiei ori in. outlet endand brings in a neur, or the u,ater that's in here now is Jiriy .o to speakand then again the process repeats itself. And depenoinJ-upon the size ofthe pond, treatment efficiency can var), from 4Ot tt AOi inJ'it yo,., pui t.oof these in series, one ahead of the other, you can increase the treatmentefficiencv bv a little bit. LJhat r^,e're proposing is to uie these assingle celled ponds to reduce the nutrient toading before it gets into theDNR uletrand. Then the other element of this pran, because ule recognizethat the DNR u,etland has deteriorated in quality,'"";i"-piop"sing to raisethe !.later level in that HeLIand to incre:,se the volume of r.later ihau,s inthere. so by increasing the volume of wa'-.er, h,e can increase the dilutionf actor of the nutr ients. So besides pre-treilins sor" ot-tr.," t^,ater that . .runs into the wetland, we'll al.so be holdins mor! water there so that thenutrient load r.rill be diluted and the other part of that is ir-we-can -'-
reduce the nutrient load, increase the water l.evel , we're expecting thature'II get a vegetation response in that basin that -once
ure "i",.ns. ihe water
Plenninf
July 77,
Co;inission Heet i n9
f997 - Page 34
chemietry and the soil chemistry r.rhjch are basi.cally the main parameters
thai- lir..it t-he kind of vegetation you have. If r,re can alter Lhat, then theveget-a::on r.:i1.1 respond because different birds, different animals wiltbring the seei in so we're not worried- too much about the seed source.
tJhat we need to do is work uith the chemistry of the basin. Change thoseconditions so the seeds that do come in can then respond. For example what-
happens r.rith the mat of duck weed that covers that basin, it cuts out thesunlight from penetrating down to the bottom of the r^,etland so these other
more desireable species can germinate and as a resu.l.t of that, we end upuith this sterile pool and with monotypic fringe of canary grass. So tle'retrying a number of things which have been studied from a scientific sense.
tle're applying those principles and expecting a positive resPonse.
in attempting this type ofEmmi ngs: Have
restoraLi.on in
had any exper i ence
past?
you
the
Frank Svoboda: f guess in terms, this is a fairly neu apProach and the
reason I say it's new is because only recently has anyone recognized and it
was just rnentj.or,ed quickly in Passing earlier - The idea of using wetlands -to manage storm water quantity has always taken Precedence and Lhe uraterquality aspect has kind of taken a back seat. If you're follor^ring any of
the liLerature, or I shouldn't say the literature but the news accounLs
about oifferen! r.lriters or different PeoPle that are intervieped talk about-
the benefits of tretlands and quite often thev'Il sav ue need to Preserve
wetl.arrds because uJe can use wetlands to enhance water quality. Well'
that's only pert of the storv because if you're using a wetland to improve -wa+-er quality in a lake, stream or river, obviously if the uater quality
improves there, iL's soing to have to deteriorate someHhere else. So the
idea of, well the recognition that if you use a r.letland for water quality
treaLment PurPoses, vou are going Lo sacrifice other functions. That is an-
inevitable resul.t. PeoPle aren't Pointing that out- That's only coming
about just very recently. And so the reason this ltasn'! been done is
because people really haven't recognized that this is a Problem and so what -i^:e're saying here is yes. In fact this is a problem- It's not all that
uncommon in urban areas and uhen you make a deciSiOn about using a Hetland
for u:eter quality or uJater quantity treatment, that decision has to be made -consciously on the basis of facts and information. So that if ure choose to
use big uretland for water quality PurPoses, tle're going to sacrifice
something in the way of r^ritdlife habitat. Now h,hen that decision is made
consciously, thaL's fine. So the resPonse is ule're basically on the
cutting edge here because no one is thinking about wetlands in these terms
and so it really hasn't, the question hasn't surfaced. NotJ in terms of a
more general sense, having done wetland mitigation in the Past, there's a -project that I urorked on several years ago near Forest Lake where t.le took a
Type II sedge meadour and converted that to a TyPe III uetland. I would
guarantee f could take anyone from, who didn't knou the history of that
xetland that's a biologist for a PubIic agency. I could take them-to that -
weLland and they urould not know tirat that uas a modified b,etland. 'I ulas
out there one spring. There ulere three sPecies of frogs. A Great BIue
Heron. Several ducks on that t,etland so there was iust a tremendous -respcnse in ternrs of wildlife diversity. The other thing that that proiect
did was not only did it enhanie, change. the character of that TyPe II
wetland. It also provided some surrounding uPland habitat as well so ue
actually desisned a r,ri ldlife habita! area. And that Proiect uas extremely
Planning
July 77,
Commission Meet i ng
1991 - Page 35
Frank, uhat's the average depth of that pond now?. The Class a
successful. Successful to the point where both people from the DNR and theCorps of Engineers poinL to that project as one of the classic examples ofHhat can be done if the job is done correctly. As I said, someone could 9oout there and thev would not kn6h, that that Nas a r.retland that was created.There's rro indication that it uas ever ingineered or anything like that. rtjust looks verv natural. so in one sense He're doi.ng some pioneering uJorkhere. rn another sense, other aspects of this work has been done before.
Emmings: Given the wetland, the big wetrand. The DNR, what ure'ie callins11, the condition that it's in today. To get it be what you describe to bea healthier uretland. one with more diverse vegetation and so forth, isthat a difficult .thing? Easy t.hing? rs the tiansition from a poor 'reiland
to a good uretland going to take a year or 10 years or 20 ),,ears?
Frank Svoboda: In some respects it,s 9oin9 to be I wouid say that h,,hatue're doing here perhaps is somewhat, I r.,ouldn't say it,s entirelyexperi,rental but to some extent it's a consequence of how much damage thatwetland has suslained i.n the past because as r indicated previously, theli.miting parameters are water chemistry and soil chemistry- So uhat we,retrying to do is improve the quality of the water thatis-eniering thatb'etland i.n two wavs. pre-treating the water and also increasing thevolume. Now we've talked Lo numerous experts at the university and someother Limnolosists and aIl indications are that tr,e appioaci that we,reproposins here is in line r.rith the scientific knowledge i"-it .*i"ts today.so on the L'asis of r^rhat the experts are telling r", *J-thini it'.9oin9 touork but L,e're not going to know if it's 9oin9 to r.rort ;;;ii ," actually 9oout and modifv the, increase the water leveL ina pre-ire"i-!or. of theurater that's 90in9 in there. But the best indicalions .i" ." far thatue're reasonabrv sure of success - But "s" i n ,
-[ i" -r'.ll.ia-uJ=i
ness , somepeopJ.e r'riII sav it's a science. certain aspects of it are scientific butmuch more of this craft so to speak is art rather than science. you applyprinciples and then vou ulait for natuie-to respond to tne-aJprication ofthose principres. So there's a sood deal of.it in""rr.J iI tni= as urerr.Try and apply hrhat you know in a creative r.tay and predict a certainr esPonse ,
Frank Svoboda: t,el] , f rom h,hat h,e can tell and the reports ..re,ve gotten is2 years ago rhis basin uas completely dry. Although *L-aiJn',t actually goout into the center of it, our expectation is it;s-proUaUii"sor.rnur.between a foot to 2 feet deep. probabry more in tnl neignLornood of a footto a foot and a half-
Er har t:
pond.
Erhart: But ifthey're dead?
Erhart: Do cattail.s grow in areas that aren't permanently uJet?
Frank Svoboda: CattaiIs, dependi nggrow in areas anywhere from 6 inchesfeet deep.
on the species of ca!of water al I the r^ray
tail,
up to
they will
water 3
it gets dry they won,t grou,? Every year it gets dry
Planning
July 77,
Commission l,leet i ng
1997 - Page 36
tsrhart:
that you
you ta ke
4 years,
Frank Svoboda: Right. AIthough.
I guess what I'm saying is, what makes you thi.nkonly get canary grass is this'is a non-permanenta field, a filled field like this and dry it outyou're not going to have cattails.
Erhart: Yeah,
shor e I i ne?
that the reason
uJater area. ff-
every 3 years or
At the design level , erhat are the sloPes going to be at the-
Rick Sathre: They're prettY fIat.
Erhart: Pretty flat, yeah. So you'Il be able to
consistent shoreline assuming you don't have any
Ievel.
maintain a
leakage at
Pr ettyyour higher
he]p you a lot in maintainingjust by having a consistent.
that doesn't move around on
Er har t :cattails
Haintain
If you can do that, that will
and more traditional shor el i ne
a consislent water level . One
the
Terry Forbord: The interesting part of
probably the, of aI] the municiPalities
this is because Chanhassen
in the metroPolitan area '
)'ou .
is
Frank Svoboda: Actually there were cattails in there because when Roger
r.las out on the site he did find the residual remains of cattails along the -fringe and what happened was when the pond dried up a couple of years ago,
then the cattails died back and it r^ras replaced by canary grass. Eventually
that cycle will iepeat itself but the other part of the equation is
hydrology. CIearIy if you have a drainage area that's small relative to
the wetland, then you're going to get these fairly severe fluctuations in
water. Now by redirecting some of the runoff on the site and ettemPLing to
capture more u,ater, r.lhat we'll try to do is kind of reduce the extent of
those fluctuations. So tlhere it might dry out nou during certain Periods
of time, we might have 6 inches of uater in it urhere in the Past it was
complete dry. So we're also doing some work uith the hydrological Part of -the equation and trying to bring more r.,ater in there.
Erhart: tJhaL'S going to be the final depth? t^lhat's Lhe control structure -you're 9oin9 to use there?
Rick Sathre: [.Je're ta]king about a pipe outlet that would be up Probablv
about 2 feet higher than the ditch outlet now. I would exPect you'd ge!
the very center there could be water aPproaching 4 feet I would think.
Rick Salhre: on the western edge next to the woodlbnd, next to the
Ortenblat driveway I Hould say Lhe sloPes are Probably beLween 3 and 5 to
1. Something like that. on the eastern Side, the eastern shore the sloPes
are probably more like 10 to 1.
Erhart: So in any case, whereas the sloPes nou, of the shoreline is
probably more like 20 to 30 to 1.
Rick Sathre: That's a concern too. The soil is pourous enough in some
places uhere r.re probablx t,ill set some seePage.
Charrhasserr probably is more interested in this Lyce of thing than anyone Ican think cf. Plvmouth is also somewhat interested but chanhas="n .pp""i.-to be more c,r, the cutting edge of understanding, or attempting toundersLand it. And u:hen for us, uheri we realized the problems here andrearizeci that the do nothing approach. rf we don't do anything, what r;vebeen told by Frank and Roger is that that existing uetland, and even theother smaller ones, r.rilI continue to decline in quality just because ofHhat msn has alreadv done. Because right now it's in an-uncontroriea-environment for it. rf you slart contro]ring the environment, controllingthe amount and the flow and the types of runoff that goes into themc)eansing the runoff that goes into them, that yor..n attempt to bringthem back. So that's become.an interestinS part of our proposal.
Rick Sathre: Did you want to talk about that...
Frank svoboda: r,^,hat He uould like to do r.rith the tr.,o ponds that r^re talkedabout for r^riIdIife habitat - Typica]Iy the idear ,irarii.-p.nd has a ratioof emergent vegetation. vegetation tiat grows above the u,ater. The r.,ater,it's a ratio of about 2:1- That is roughiv 332 open ,.i.i-.na about 672vegetaLion. The other thing that you try and accomplish is not to have aIIthe open Hater in one spot-. nll ti-re vegetation ln .noitri-"pot. Is to tryand create some variation in the rocatiin of thai . i, -"i-".s.tat
i on andHater. so what we're proposing for those t!.ro ponds is to cieate a wetrandthat has an irresular. meandered edse to approximate " n"iri.r condition andthen from the uprand here and trre i:.rsi several feet of the- wetrand,designing the bottom at a ratio of rousnly fO,i to-iOii ="-it,s fairlysteep here. Then as you get into the Jeeper brater, this edge being O to 1ginches deep. Getting into the deepei *ut"r, 18 to 36 inches deep andmaking the bottom flater. something rii<e zo:1 to so:r here and then in themiddle havins pockets of open urater-tnit would stay-op.n-r!t", permanently.So here you'd have water preferably 3 feet and deeper'. fn-cross section itIooks like this. tjhere vou have tfie deep pocket h6re. Then this kind ofhump which would be the la to 36 i;;h =o you get some vegetation maybestaying below the surface or breaking through the s,rrf..J. So you have abottom. that's irregular and vou tr"ve-an eage tnai'.-iii"eur.r. That istvpicallv when vou see a naturar wetland tnat wis i"ii.J-iy'gr.aciation,that is the kind of pattern it has. So that'= *[rt-r";ie iroposing to doin these two wirdlife wetrands at the south end oi tr,e sit!. The one r.rhichwould be excavated from upland and the-second one which would be acombination of upr.and excavation and some modification oi-ih" existingcanarv grass wetland. so this is our concept here anJ ir,ii'i., as rmentioned to vou, the uretland at pioneer point in roiesi ilte. rrrris-is ttretvpe of approach that b,e used there and it works veiy-*.ril"
Terry Forbord: Frank, uJhat types of vegetation r.rill be introduced in thistype of b,et I a nd?
Frank svoboda: Uell preferably uhat we like to sed in addition to thecattail are things Iike pickerel weed and bullrush. O.p"nJins on the u,aterqualitv, ure would like to get some bullrush estauii sr,eJ .
- "sor. of the otherL,etIand srasses besides canarv grass. r.retland h;;b; iii. =r".p-riiri.;;.'-'There's literallv hundreds of wetland species ana . g""J-h.urthv r.retland,the healthier the wetland Lhe more variation v"u h."I-in fil.s.t"tion.Generally a sood indjcation of a wetland thatis =rii;ri;S-;;", ;;;;a;i;;,
P).anning Commission Meet i ngJuly !7, 7991 - Page 37
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Commission Meet i ng
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be jt Foor water quality or some sort of problem regarding soil chemistry,you tend to end up with a wetland that's fairly 'monotypic. Either canarygrass,, cor-,ti nuous stand of canary grass or continuous starrd of cattails and-Iittle else. Nhat ure like to do is try and vary !ha! diversity and againthe two things that r.re have to work with are the soil chemislry and the
water chemistry because my feeling is if you get those things in balance,
if you get those 'hjngs corrected, then these other plants will start
show i ng up .
Erhart: l,^Jhere are you going to do tha!? Is that the C.lass A wetland or
the other ones? Is that the one on the u,est boundary?
Frank Svoboda: Okay, it r.Jould be these two. It trould be
this part of the wetland which is excavated out of uPland
would extend to this part of the existing S2 wetland.
this basin plus
and then which
Erhart: Okay. To set bullrush and swamP milkweed and aII that, do vou
have to plant those or wiII they show uP naturallv?
Frank Svoboda: There a:-e tulo schools of thoughL. In fact there's been
established nursery business in wetland Plants. There's a couPle of
nurseries in tjisconsin and there's several nurSeries on the east coasL. l''ly
feeling is if you bring the soil chemistry and the water chemistry into
proper balance, the other species wiII come in. In many instances there is
a seed bank r.:ithin the wetland that is lying dormant and it just takes the
proper conditions in order to invigorate that. In other cases or in
addition to that, ducks travel numerous wetlands and seeds wiII stick to
their feathers. stick to Lheir feet. They'II consume seeds of other
plants and those will be Passed in the excrement and the seeds get
introduced into the wetlands. Plus some of Lhe seeds are wind born so
there are numerous mechanisms for Producing a seed bank. One of the things
that led me to this conclusion uas that reading through the historical
records when the land nas first settled, we had numerous wetlands around
here that had urild rice Present yet He no longer see any wild rice here. I
believe if we look a! the type of [ater chemistry that wi]d rice requi.res
in the r^:ild rice beds farther north urhere the uater quality is much better, -if we looked at the uater qualitv there and compared it to the water
chemistry we have here, r.le,d understand urhy ue don't have wild rice any
longer is because of the effect of agriculture and various land use
practices that changed the ulater chemistry. So that's urhy I'm such
strong believer j.n getting those two elements back into ProPer balance
because then the rest of the community, the ecosystem is going to resPond.
And certainly I'm not going to tel] you that 5 years from now this is going -to look the !^ray it was in 1750 because f don't think that's possible.
That's Iike saying that you could go out and recreate a native Prairie in
an agricultural field by seeding Big Elue Stem and Indian Grass and a few
othei things. Certainly you've re-established the native Plant species blit -
it stitl isn't the ProPer mix of all the elements of r'rhat the native-
prairie once Has. So I'm not going to st;l:rd here and tell you that this is
9oin9 to look like it did in 17OO but what ue're trving to do is make it
better than it is today.
Emmings: !.lhen you're creating these wetlands, I read about how when
l00sestrife is introduced to these areas it takes over. How do we know
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July 77,
Comrnission Heet i ng
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lJe're not just reallv iust creating a happy home for some loosestrife?
Frank Svoboda: There is an element of risk urith that, particularly sinceloosestrife is established immediately across Lake Lucy Road. t^lhat happensis *hen you disturb an area, create an open soil condition,. then tnai;s' i -
rear optinral situation for purple loosestrife to get estabrished. And sothere's going Lo have to be some dirigence, some care taken initially toprevent that from being established there during those first couple ofyears when that soil is raw and exposed.
Emmings: tJill it become any less a problem thereafter?
Frank svoboda: once you get a good tight vegetative cover established,it's less apt to invade. The most vulnerabLt time is when it,s firstdisturbed but certainly there's numerous cattair r.retlands aiound themetropoljtan area that had no disturbance and they're full of purpleloosestrife. So that,s cerLainly a factor that has to U.-r."ognized. Ibelieve that there mav be a few scattered indiviarit ptiits-that came inthe south side of Lake Lucy Road probably as a consequence of thereconstruction of that road and the exposed soil that was there at thetime,
Terry Forbc,rdi Are there any otherrelative to the ispects of the pUD
have more wetland questions, that'sthings that you.
on
questions ure can answer fgrproposal other than wet I a ndsfine but maybe there's some
you
or if you
ot her
Joe Mor i n:
development.
My name is Joe Morin and I live directly to the west of this
Emmings: The properly neighboring it to the west? Right riext to it?
Joe Morin: The next door neighbor is Ted coey. He has a 20 acre parceland m next door to Ted. r have a s acre parcel . Basical.ly r have a fewcomments to make about the work that the staff did. This is a difficultsite and thev're to be commended for the r^ror k that they've done up untilnow. I think Lheir report is h,ell done and it's sensitive to theenvironment in the area but r do have six concerns that Ia iiie-to ortlin"briefrv in the interest of saving some time. rt's getting rate and tu{oproposals that rd Like staff to look at. Hy first concern is basicallyr.,ith the transition of this type of development into the surroundingdevelopments. If you look to the south jn the Greenwood Shores area youcan see that the lot sizes are much larg.--. . A.nd if you look to the uest ofthis der,,elopment, the existing homes in t,nat area are higher valued bv .considerable amount than are the value of the homes proposed for thisdevelopment. It's my understanding that part of what you're doing isstruggling aith developing a pUD ordinance at the same time r.re're trying tounderstand this particular development so the comments that r make are
Emmings: tJell yeah, we've spent a lot of time on this sinsle aspect. fguess evervbodv's pretty interested in it. Are there othei people here uhohave questions or comments about, r see other people have-come. rf you,dlike to ask your questi.ons or make your comments, this might be a good limeto do that.
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relati,,,e to both. t^lhat I would like to see is a future kind of ordinance
and elso the problems that I see in this proposaL. The second concern thatI hai,e is the exiting of this road. There's two major problems with that. -
The first of course is the impact of that road on the residents across thestreet. It comes out right about at their front door. And the second andvery serious concern I have is that it goes right across the top of that
knoll where all ti,ose beautiful oak trees are. There's a huge beautiful
mature oak tree and also birch and aspen and it's just a gorgeous area. I
think that there are some things that can be done to bring that out at a
different location. The third concern that I have is the view from Lake
Lucy Road looking into that high density development. l.lhat you're looking
at is the back yards of a urhole Iot of houses. That's not a real, I don't
that's I think something can be done to mitigate that as well.
understand there was a problem wiLh that on Lake Riley HiIls develoPment
and some work was done to mitigate that concern. I'm not fu]Iy
understanding what they're saying about this holding pond. To me it
appears that aII of the surrounding homes are draining into that C]ass A
wetland and all that fertilizer and stuff going in there is going to make
that a lot urorse. There's this tiny little holding Pond at the exit of
that Class A r^retland th-t's suPPosed to Protect Lake Lucy and I'm not real
confident that this exper imental projec! is really going to do that. So
I really feel that with 37 homes on a site that small u,ith that much
wetland and with Lake Lucy, the headtraters of the chain of lakes doulnstream-
that t.le need to take a stronger ]ook at that. That l,Jalker Pond concePt
sounds interesting but it's certainly not doing anything to Protect that
class A wetland. I just uant to make sure that's understood. AIso the
deve.Ioper,
Emmings; Uhat do you mean it's not doing anything?
say it was going to do something. I uonder Ehat you
I understood them to
mean.
Joe l,lorin: Risht. That's what forms the Class A uretland. The reason itls-
dead now and has a lot of duck ureed in it is because of all the fertilizer
that the farmers put on the cornfield. All that stuff uas already there.
All that phospherous was in there and what this does is it simply adds more -nutrient loading into that area. Now as I understand it, maybe I have it
wrong but there's a little pond here where this thing is flouing out.
::::,:":^""::;:':^::": ::.:,=.:". is rhar the r^rater thar rhey corlecr from
other parts of the site, storm water and so forth will be going through the
pond that's going to be built to the east of the wetland
Joe Morin: This one uP
That 's
here?
Emmi ngs: Right .urhat I thought they r.rere tal ki ng about .
Joe Horin: Here's wha! I'm trying to say, You have al] these homes here
trith fertilizer on their Iawns draining directly into this Class A wetland. -There's nothing stopping that excePt hopefully there r.riII be some buffering
in there
Erhart: Joe, if you don't have it draining in there you tr6n't have the
pond .
PlanningJuly 17,
Comrnission t{eetingt99l - Page 4!
Joe Morjn: ...but none of
bei ng buffereC at aII.this other stuff that's flowing in there is
Emmi. ng=: f understand.
Joe Morin: And perhaps the storm sewerthat a tlal ker pot,J down here?
coming down here, I don't know is
Rick Sathre: Let me address this.is a tlaI ker pond . That's a t^lal kerdirected through one of those three
bretl.and
This is a tlalker pond, thisof the street runoff urould begoes into the Class A
This one?
Pond. AII
before it
Emmings: No. It's going
Rick 9,athre: The uater's
Joe Morinr BuL you have
Joe Horin: l^lelI yeah butthe only way to come out
Rick Sathre: t,eII but itpipe thal takes it out.
aIl of this going
the other tray.
goin9 in through
the proposal isis this way.
uron't go through
through that.and then going in.
this into there.
to block the exit to the north so
this Little basin. ..a separate
Joe l'1or i n: t^lhat does it drai n into?
Rick Sathre: It will come down to this wildlifeLhere end then it uill discharge into this area.
pond after it's stored in
Joe Morin; These hold the storm sewer runoffs but they don't hold runoffsfrom alI of the surrounding properties and they don't do anything toprotect Lake Lucv from al] the runoff... And even if they did, looking atthe size of the relative size of that area and in effect Lh.t thi= i" inexperimental project, r don't have a lot of confidence in the fact thatthat's going to be protected. That's my concern. The other thought I hadis I knour that this is weII within the guidelines proposed 'in theComprehensive Pl.an in terms of density but that isn't really a zoningrequirement in that we still need to look at those as guidelines. nieas inthe hish terrain area surrounding the north side of Lake Lucy. the areasthat primarilv drain into the Lake r berieve should be rooked at as largerlot kinds of homes than uhat is being proposed here. AIso for all theother propsrties to the west that haven't been developed yet, incruding myourn. And I guess my final concern is ulhat a horrible precedent ue'resetting here. There's 11 variances that are proposed on these lots.That's someihing that really troubles me a lot. That's my final concern -Hv two recommendations that r think could be studied. r'm not a civilengineer or anvthing but it looks to me like the impact on this knolr couldbe mitigated bv coming out through the area where the existing driver"rayexits rather than coming across this knoll and certainly that uould have animpact on this wetrand someurhat. But in terms of the overall environmentthat this knoll and the trees surrounding it and this area are far morevaluable than is a tiny section of this uretland area. So one of theLhoughLs nright be to redirect this road to follou closer to Lhe wetland
Planning
July 77,
Commission Heet i ng
7997 - Page 42
ar-ea arrd then nrove the homesites to the other side, That would put thefront yarde visible from Lake Lucy Road rather than Lhe back yards and it
would conform to the terrain of the properties I think a lot better. Theother thought I had was in looKing at this area here, in order to reducqthe total number of variances required, 11 here, perhaps by combining someof these Lots. Instead of having Lwo small lots, make them one Iarger lot
and instead of having a road in here, you could service four of these Nitha private driveway which would bring the homes further from the wetland
area and I think would make a more suitabl.e development for this
environment ulith aIl it's amenities. I think maybe it's not economically
feasible to put $3oO,0oo.oo homes in there today but it r.ras 5 years ago. It
may be again 5 years from now so I'd hate'to have the economi.c conditions
at this moment in time ruin what could be potentially a very beautiful
area. For all of Chanhassen.
Emmings: Thanks. Is there anybody else who has comments
Eric. You'rei a notoriously long speaker. Have you got a
where you can just hit us bing, bing, bing?
on thi s?list Iike O kay
Joe
Terry Forbord: That's correct. A very small amount of it, if any, runs
north at Lhis present time. The r.ratershed district boundary is on thecenter line of Lake Lucy Road so everything north of Lake Lucy Road is
supposed to 9o norLh, Everything south is supposed to go south. ft.'s the
conclusion that it would best be served t: run it south.
Eric Rivkin: By deepening the erater, increasing the water holding capacity
of this whole site, and when you have big storms, you're going to haveflushing of nutrient rich r.rater going into Lake Lucy. I'm concerned about
that. tJhat guarantees do we have that the ulater quality is going to be
Eric Rivkin: I'm also historically improving my' cut doun on my. I just
want to say j have some concerns. f'm not going to repeat h,hat Joe has
said. I do agree in spirit to what Joe has said although the solutions may
not always L,e there. f anr concerned abouL the trees on the northwest
corner of the lot being destroyed. There is a very high knoll there and it
would reall)' tear into that I think in a urong way. To add a benefit to
Joe's proposal of moving the street around to where the existing driveway
is, I think the benefit would be to take the runoff, nutrient rich runoff
from the backyards of those things and then it wiII be intercepted bv a
street. Then that would also guarantee that a true nature buffer area
between the road and the pond exj.sted rather than have an artificial one
only 10 or 20 feet *ide created by a back yard conservation easement. f am
concerned that not aII runoff is redirected to be so cal]ed cleansed, I
think that should be mitigated in some bray so that the spirit of this, so
that this experiment could work. Given a chance to uork. I think that
developr,enLs like this have Lo move in this direction where urater quality
is put a front seat to u,aLer quantity and so I think it should be mitigated
in some Hay to guarantee that aII the runoff is redirected to be cleansed.
And if that means laying it oul again, 60 be it. I'm also as Co-chair ofthe Lake Lucy Homeowners Association I'm concerned about any Nater that
enters Lake Lucy watershed. I understand from talking to Terry yesterday
that, am I sLiI] correct in assuming that this, all the urater is now going
to be running into Lake Luc), r.ratershed and not inLo Christmas Lake
water shed?
Planni n3
July 77,
Commission HeeLi n9
f997 - Page 43
impror.,ed c)ver what it is notr at least and are there any h,ater qu6lityguidelir,es that could be proposed to say okay, we are going after this muchlevels c,f phospherous or whatever and try to set some clear cut goals andsome ways of meeling them and gr.iaranteeing that they be put in piacethrough conditions on the pLat. Another condi.tion that r saw kind ofJ.ooming on the horizon here uas uhat is 9oin9 to fund the nutrientharvesting in those catch basins? rn order to prevent phospherous frommoving down the t^ratershed and ruining wetlands downstream as ourLimnologist said here, the phospherous has to be removed every so often. Hesaid, did he Paul said that the City is responsible for harvesting those?Cleaning those basins out every once in a while.
Krauss: l.JeLI yeah. Ue have a number of sedimentation basins existingaround the community. They have a service life that var-ies depending onhow much erosion is getting into it and what not. Ue have an obligaiion tomaintain those things and thev're in every subdivision and that's irimarirythe reason u:hv we've steered plans to having essentially focused collectionpoints. You know instead of having g or 9 small ones around, have 2 or 3that we can fnanage. The fact of the matter is though is most of thesethings are still relatively new given the timeframe of development ofChanhassen. To the best of our knowledge they haven't failed yet, at leastfrom the sedirnentation basins. tJe need to start structuring, end charleswould be able to take this one, but ue need to start structuiing amaintenance program for our sedimentation basins. .Now uJe are siarting touse these basins in an expanded mode to also improve r.later quality. tf.will need to rxaintai.n them probabry more frequently than had been the casewhen it was just for water volume for the water quality aspect. In somecases it's weed harvesting. In some cases it's sediment removal that willhave to be done. certainlv 9oin9 to be coming in and taking out the finesthat have settled out- otherwise it uon't function. up to this point wehaven't had an active effort to do this because (a) it hasn,t beennecessarv and (b) we haven't been able to afford i!. That's one of theprimary reasons (,Je got into the surface water utility. tJe nou, have asource of revenue that in part is going to be used for the planning effortto geL our water quality Program or our storm tlater management and uletlandseffort on track buL that's only about a fifth of the funds that h,e'll begenerating over the next 5 years. The rest of it is for land acquisitions.It's for maintenance programs. It's for- street sweeping. It's for goingin and dredging these things out on a more periodic basis so it issomething that we're responsible for. It is something that Ne're gettingup and running no!.r so r.re'Il be ready to do that yes.
Eric Rivkin: Okay. t,lel} my concern is that the guarantees will be inpl.ace forever basically because that's r.,hat you're creating here. Alsowith the people that are Living there got these basins in their back yards.
Does that mean a truck from the City is going to be driving through theirlots to clean these basins out at a time r.rhen wildlife is trying toestablish itsel.f? I mean the timing is important in this. Itaybe thebasins ought to be moved closer to the road so people don't fe61 , and thewildlife aren't going to be encroached on at the same time. It's athought. It's an environmental, issue and it's also I'm sure the people
that are soing to be living there, it's going to be an issue -
Planning
July 17,
Comrission l'leet i n9
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Charles Fo]ch: yeah, typically uhen u:e revieu a development proposal wetake a lock aL hor,r we are going to access these 'ponds. [^le norma]ly require-an access eaEement to get to the pond. LJe try to control the steepness ofthe grades to get dor.rn there. Certainly there is going to be somedisturbance when we have a heavy piece of equipment going in there anddoing the dredging uork and cleaning it out but hopefully with the methods -that we're learnir,g here as far as our revegetating of these wetlands, wecan implement those same procedures Lo help restore any disturbance thaL
occurs r^:hen ue do go i n and do mai ntenance
Emmings: I think tonight and given that it's almost 11:OO, Hhat we're
9oin9 to do here is I'd like to get the concerns folks have out on thetable and not to respond to them so everybody gets a chance to say theirpeace and get everything out on the table. Because they're going to be
9oin9 back to r.,or k on it and there urill be anoLher public hearing urhere ue
can maybe budgeL more time for this. So.9o ahead Eric.
Eric Rivkin: Right. That's al] I have. Thank you very much.
Mark Sanda: Hi. Hy name is Hark Sanda and I live just to the west of JoeHorin about a quarter mile or so. I just wanted to state that I agree with_Joe's points and I feel. they're very important. The slide to me that isthe most tellins one is the pl,at map that shor^ls this new development inrelationship to the plat maps of the other developments and it just istaking a littLe bit awav from the area. t"le're trying to shoehorn a few too-many homes into a Iimited space. A very valuable space and ure can't losesight of the bigger picture of how close this development is to the shoresof Lake Lucv. flany of you have sat here for many hours as we've debatedour problems with Lake Lucy and the declining r,rater quality there and uereally have to be mindful of hoh, this devel.opment, even though Lake Lucy isshown as littre tinv corDer on these macg_, is-very, very cloie. rt's just -a few hundred yards auay. That's basically all I tranted to say.
Emmings: Thank you. fs there anybody eli= that !,ants to put anything onthe record here tonight? I think maybe r.re oubht to, I don,t know ifanybody else has comments they want to make at this stage of things. Ithink we ought to give some direclion in terms of whether or not ue thinkthis ought to be done as a PUD as opposed to a straight subdivision,especially in Iight of the fact that ure don't have an ordinance to guide ud
Eric Rivkin: I didn't expect any ansr^,ers nour, f guess also, is the 2O
foot wild easement around the backs of these lots, is that consistent with -the diversiLy of vegetai.ion concept or re-establishing wildlife? I don'!
need an answer but I don't know ulhat the ideal conservation easement is
goi ng to be here
Krauss: Keep in nrind the wetland body itself is going to be protected. I
mean Lfie re's no question of that and we're talking about it as an uplandarea beyond the wetland. In the past when we've had a setback, ule've had a-75 foot setback requirement but you could sod basically up to the r.retland
and we've become convinced that trhether it's 75 feet, 35 feet or uhateverit ic, unless r.re have a fringe of natural growth, ue've got a significantproblern because anything that's pul on the lar.rn, any grass that's cut onthe lawn just flushes right into it and Lhe idea is to keep it up there.
FIanning
July 77,
Cornrn i ss i. o n Meet i n9
1997 - Page 45
in this. That dcesn't seem to bother paul , r.rhich IDces anybody have any comments they want to make?
guess, I don't know.
Erhart: r tl-rink vou're doing the right thing by raising the urater level ofthat pond. r guess r tend to believe that will do more for wildlife thin-anv sing]e thing. r mean ducks just don't breathe in 6 inches of water.They'II rest there and move on so r think increasing the h,ater level therewill heve a dramatic effect on the value of that weiland so r think we'redoing all the right things there. ue're mitigating, we're moving thingsaround because vou have to on roads. And the fact is that we're replaiingurith more and trving to allou people some live there r think islgo;4.--i "
.tfink sometimes we tend to think that when we do subdivisions that somehowaliens are movins in from Hars to Iive as ne i ghbo;;- bui -i"J "ino* these arePeople that are going to live here. rt's a growing popuiation and we,vegot to make room for them in a manner that,s consiitenl. The other peopleare already there but He try to make, u,e try to accommodate them the bestt^tay u,r e can and I think for that reason ue have to, as much as I don,t liketo move r.:et]ands, sometimes vou have to do that to make it sense for peopieto have homes and enjoy the uetlands Like so many of us do now so. I thinkit appears as though we're on the right track heie. rnterested in r thinkit uas Joe's comment. The idea of puttins the road next Lo the pond likethsv used to do in the ord davs. you know they put the road next to thelake and hcve the houses face the pond. rt just sort of hii mv curiousitythere. I cJon't think anybody's used that approach for years but r justwonder r,.rha t the impact of Iot prices would be if you ,.leie-to do that.
Terry Forbord: i.Jou I d Iike me to respond?
Erhart: I don't knour.you have a quick answer?
you
Do
Terry Forbcrd: I have a couple
ure can address them later. If
happ>' to clo that.
answers for that but ifyou'd Like me to address
you would
them nou,
like me,I'd be
Erhart: I thought jt r^ra s an interesting question.
Terrv Forbord: t^JeII there's a number of things. First of .alr you have torenrember in loday's lifestyles that people have, they don't spend a lot oftime in their front vards. r mean if vou think about r.,hat you do day inand dav out bv enjoyment of your private propertv, the majoiity of t'hattime is spent in the rear yard area u,ith your family or just trying to getauay. f4ost peopLe don't ]ike to watch the cars go by. At one point in-time it was exciLing mavbe when the vehicle r.ras the biggest thing around,that was something people riked to do. From a design siandpoint, r thiniif one !^,as just to 90 out and look at this property, you can see veryeasily where people would like to enjoy their particular homesites. Thaturould be looking at the habitat ure've already discussed. From an economicstandpoint, it r^rould prohibit the values of the site just because-..
Erhart: tJeII you could only get IoLs on lne s'ide of the street.
Terry Forbord: The think that occurs, see one of the problems is wefocused entirely on uretlands and r.Jhat we've done, r mean we've focused onthat because we know it's a serious issue in Chanhassen. l.le've focused on
Flanning
July 77,
Comnr i ss j. o n Heeti ng
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that a little bit tonjght. one of the things we al] forgot to do here js
that )'ou have to look at the uhole equation. Do you urant to urorry about,
clo yo:: ura-,,t to grade the site a lot? So in other words you have to cut
down alI the trees so you can move the'dirt different places to put
hornesites somewhere else so we took not just trees into the equation. t,etook not just r+etlands. Not just urildlife but we took people r.rho live
there. L,e took e\erything into consideration. Nor.J there r.iere a lot of
very good points raised by every speaker tonight. Every single one of thern
ulas taken into consideration into the design. The key. is the balancing
act. Ljhere is the fine line where the ultimate balancing act is so the
optimurn is created with the least impact on the entire site. Is it uorth
fillins a good large portion of a welland to save one tree? That's th'e
balancjng act we have to do. l.le've done that over and over again.
Erhart: Okay. Just the last item. There's one reoccurring theme I hear
here from Joe and Eric and the other individual here was a great concern
for that northwest corner. I think maybe what ue need to do in the nexL
meeti ng js, Rick you kind of stated you had a good reason to move it to the
left instead of the right. Maybe r,rhat ue need to do is.have a good
explanation when your fjna] decision for everybodv to understand why you
picked that particular site and not get into it tonight. I think that
would be helpful for everybody.
Terry Forbord: Actually r.re'Il address each concern that uas 'raised bv aII
the inclividuels tonight and explain in detail r.rhy we chose Nhat r^re did'
Because like I say, you have to take the whole equation to understand. -.
Emmings: t^,hat do you think
as a straigh'- subdivision?
about doing it as a PUD as opposed to doing it
Erhart: I think if time permits, that's obviously the way it should be
done because you avoid setting the Precedent of alf the variances. So if
the developer is willing to do it as a PUD ' I think we ought to do it that
waY .
Emmings: Yeah, and so do I. Go ahead.
BatzIi: can you put the overhead back up urhich shows the development in
the context of the surrounding development? My general philosophical , twoquestion philosophical questions. One is, it appears to me that there is a-
higher density here obviously than the areas directly surrounding it and it
appears as though some of the problems r.rith setbacks and looking at iL as a
PUD is in part because ure are shoe horning a lot of thinEs in there
Compared to the surrounding properties. I mean I think they're nice sizedlots but you look at r^rhat's around it and the)z are smaller. I'd like toI guess see maybe feurer lots put in there personally. The other Lhing is
addressed to our planning staff and that is, Paul . Has there been anythought as to how the properties to the u,est are going to develop ind theeffect of placing the road that close to the boundary line and would it
make more sense Lo try and stub something off on the side or has there been -any thought on that?
Krauss: f n
been napped
fact there's been a fair bit of thought on that. It hasn't
out but the Lundgren proposal uras originally, I don't know if
it xas inLended to but they intended to work out an arrangement with theadjoining property owner, Coey. Bring that into the plat and it had somenice adr.'anLage s. Unf ortunalely they ueren't able to do that . So r.re'relef t to deaL r^riLh what ure can. 't^,le have looked at that area to some extent.For exar,rp)e we know that there's no uay to provide sewer into this areawithout a lift station. The lift station that Lundgren is proposing, we'rehaving a stub go rut to the coey property so that can be extended aiong thelake as property owners need it. In my view it's unfortunate for bothproperties that the Coey property r.Jasn,t brought into.this at the same time.because thaL's going to be very.difficult to develop by itself
Batzli: It's going to be impossible almost from looking at it
Terrv Forbord: Mav r just address that? Because r think r can answer manyof the questions immediately on that. There's some natdral features ofthis area that if things r.,ere on an ideal situation, uould dictate thatsome properties be incorporated with other properties. There's 4.g acresof the urestern, excuse me the eastern section tt tf,. Coey property thatlends itself to being incorporated with the ortenblat property. primarilybecause there is a ravine, there's a knoll, there,s a r.retiand and thenthere's another u,retland- so in actual configuration would 9o somethingIike this.. Doxn like this and then back dourn rike that and it,s about.4,4!/2 acres. Not very ).arge piece of property. It should be incorporaied'uith this. There's no uay you can make a link of a streei t"'iiri, i"-ritor serve just those 4 acres. rt would have to be incorporated here andthis street r.rould have to be servicing it. ue looked at that. The onlyway for Mr. Coev in the future, if he ever chooses to develop that part ofhis site, uould be to have to cut aII the trees down and fill in the ,"uin.with some kind of a mass grading on that piece of piopeity-io connect itHith anoLher road. He told us it didn't make any difierence because hedidn't r,.rant to develop it anyulay which is a rishi that he certainly has andso ue did research alI those different components and met r.rith staif andtried to see what could be done and actually the best way to serve theproperty would be off of Lake Lucy Road at this point in time on the Coeyproperty. And getting back to the other question, the property is zonedRSF. rt meets the rand use guide plan and arl the criteria of the existingcomprehensive plan. I believe that RSF zoning classificati.on is a 1.4dwelling units per acre and this is 1.2.so it's armost at the very ror.restdensity that is alloued in that particular zoning district.
Batzli: r understand that. r tried to preface that by saying r perEonallywould like to see that. r understand that it meets criteria ind comparedto my postage stamp sized lot, these are mammoth but that,s another issue.PauI, has any consideration been done? Granted the gentleman who owns thepropertv to the urest doesn't currently u,ant to develop but for example whenwe b,ere looking at Vineland and some of those other things, we hadengineering look at how the heck are ue going to service these things ifthey der,relop. Has any thought, has our engineering department or htve youguys looked at it?
Krauss: ue have. tle've done it in house. |.Je haven't gotten it formaLlydone up for you and frankly the thought of not connecting up to Lake Lucyat this time and leaving a leg to be connected across the coey property inthe future did occur to us. tte didn't pursue it at great length. you know
Planni n3 Commission l{eet i ngJuly 17, 1991 - Page 47
Planning
Ju)y 77,
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199f - Page 48
if you had your druthers as 1"1r. Forbord's saying, if the road would
come out over there. tle could still force it that way but that's anlong deaci e:'rd c.ul-de-sac that would exist for an indeterminant time.could look at Lhat a little further if 'you'd Iike
have
awfu I
[.,,e
Batzli; f don't know. It just seems, I have to 9o out and look at thatsite too because I didn't recognize that it'd be that tough to stub
somet hi n9 out.
Batzli: Yeah.
Joe Hcrin: If Ted says he doesn't want to ever develoP, that'd be just
great urith me because I don't uant to develop either. 5o that property
would etay just like it is for the next few years.
Terry Forbord: I think it r.rould be, ure've actually laid out that whole
area. t^le've done 3 or 4 concepls trying to figure out...as you suggested
and the Lopography, if you saw a topography map of the area and then 9o on-
the site, it'd be easier to understand why that link between these two
can't be made. I believe r.re submitted to the staff, the engineering
department those ]ayouts so they can see those. I'm sure they'lI share them
with the Planning Commiss.ion at the next meeting so they can understand.
Krauss: Uell let's focus a little bit on the experimental issue a littlebit and maybe Frank could expand on this. tJe like to think ure're on thecutting edge of a ]ot of this stuff and. I think t.,e are in terms of ule wantto use this stuff in the real uorld and do this. .The concept of theseponds has existed for quite a while. The State Board of Soil and trater
Conservation Service has published a manual on hoL, to do this a couple ofyears ago. The Metro Council required that uJe do these kinds of things asa matter of police as a condition of approval with our Comprehensive PIan.
They required the same thing of Eden Prairie and everybody else that comesbefore them. It's calIed Best Hanagement Practices. tle are tryinE to
break some ground here but r.Je're not, this is not an experimental programthat has a high risk poLential that Hon't u,ork. I mean the science behindthis is pretty clear. The designs of the=e things are pretty cleai.- l.,hereI think trhat Frank uras touching on r.lhere ine art comes in is how you put
tog€ther all these elements to achieve Nhat you really b,ant to in ther^retland. IL's clear to anyone Lhat looks at this that u,e'rb doing a muchbetter job r,rith this one that 'has been done in the past. The degree ofeffectiveness is something that you have to see so I shy away from the
Joe Horin: Can I say something?
Batzli: t^JeII yeah I recognize he doesn't want to do that nou but in 20
years when he does develop it. Anyway, enough of that.
Batz]j: The question about looking at the back yards from the road I
though! r.ras an interesting one but I think as Lundgren's pointing out, they-
really, you want to put lhe back yards around that wetland so that's an
interesting observation to kind of make. From Lake Lucy Road h,hat are you
going to be seejng? That's interesting. t,hat does the DNR think of these -experimental ponds? Have you guys had an opportunily to talk to them?
trlannir:!
July 77,
Ccmmission Meet i ng
1991 - Fage 49
se rra nt i cs. ofthe case.
caLling it an experiment. I really don't believe that that's
Frank 9vo!,cda: L,hen I spoke about it being experimental I wasn't talkingabout the water ponds. That concept has been around for quite some time.The experimental or trial aspect of this is a question of Nhat's 9oin9 tohappen when we trv to alter the urater chemistry of the uretland thit's beendesraded. That's where the results of that aren't unclear. cu;i;inIy-;r;intent is we're trving to take, ure know what the condition of the ulaterquality of that wetland is today. Even if we improve that 252 above uhereit is notr, we've made some marked progress so that's uhat the trial ."p..iof this is. rf we improve that water quali Ly 2oz, how is the vegetationand hour is the wi ldl if e going to respond? That's the part of r.rhit I r.rasdescribing that's a trial aspect. so the storm Nater ponds, the Nalkerconcept has been around for quite some time. In fact that concept has beenadopted by the NUR program. National Urban Runoff program and this ponddesign is actually incorporated into those standards so that part is notexperimental.
B6tzli: And one final question if r could for Terry. can r ask lhat yourrange is going to be for the homes in this? your kind of tirget range.tJhat yor're thinking right now.
Terrv Forbord: That's an excellent question. sorry r didn't address thatearlier. The price range of homes in this area in ioaay;i dollars would besomewhere o1' about 9150,ooo.oo to !i22o,ooo.oo-!E21o,ooo.oo. That's what ourprel ir" j nary est!r-ateS are.
Emmi ngs: That 's the home or home and lot?
lot.Terry Forbord: Home and
Erhart: tlhat are the lots 9oin9 to run?
Terry Forbord: The lots, again this isknow until you're all done. I u,ouldn't
belr.reen S4O,OOO.OO and $65,OOO.OO.
real preliminary because you don'tbe surprised they're somewhere
Emmings: Thanks.
Farma kes: In your
r ight?
development if you sell the lot, you do the devel^opment
Terry Forbord: Right. Lundgren Bros. primaril.y develops real estate forit's own benefit. Over the years, the 22 years that we,ve been inbusj.ness ' periodica].Iy some of the larger scale neighborhood communitiesLhat Ne've developed, we've alloured a feu builders ihat we,ve done-businesswith and that are friends of ours to come in and build a home here andthere. This particular neighborhood community is quite small. rt's only35 hornes that ere foi sale and the intent is for Lundgren Bros. toconstruct all of the homes in. this particular development.
Far nra kes : There r.ras verythat borders this area up
little said tonight in regards to the wetlandin here. It's a different type of uetland.
Piannlr3
JU)Y )/,
Comrnission l'lebti n9
I 991 - Page 50
Basjcally I beljeve the u,ret.Iand picks up a majority of aIl these lots hereand thcn it g:es up into there. The southeast Corner of that. I'd Iike to
se€. mcr€ jnfornration on that wetl.and. At least as rnuch as you have on the -
Class A welland up above where it's mark€d fl2. The majority of thediscussion that Ne had there was in regards to that Hetland. Your property
and your development also borders that lower one. I'd like to hear moreinformation in regards to how that would be effected. The type of wetlandthat it is and so on.
Terry Forbord: tJou]d you like to hear that tonight? The reason we focused-
on the other one is because.that one is...
Farmakes: f understand that. I r.ras just wonderins, I'm assuming that one -is in better shape. That is the last one I believe before it gets into the
lake?
Terry Forbord: Frank's more qualified to discuss that than I am.
Emmings: ft's just getting too late. I Lhink t^rhat he's saying is he's
interestecj jn thdt and ue're going to be asking you about it when we do
have the public hearing.
Farnrakes: f h.ave just a couple more quick things. If we can put that
other schemaLic up.
Emrnings: Take uhatever time you want. If you want him to answer it now. -
Farmakes: No, I just r^,ant to list it as a question. I don't need a
response right now but I would like to hear more about that. The schematicthat you had up prior to that.
Terry Forbord: This one?
Farmakes: Yeah. f guess I don't have any problem that you made a
conserted effort to deal wiLh the barriers that you could to the south.
There is a large wetland there and a lot of those lots look a lot Iarger
than they realIy are in the Green!.rood area. Greenwood Shores area. To thenorth there's the highway there separating the two. I'm concerned to the
urest and I'd like Lo see the proposed plan, the Coey development, that
topography as it goes r^rest is pretty dramatic. There's a lot of hills and -vallei,s and terrain is pretty severe topography. I urould like to knotr, I
know that you're not going to develop the property to the ..,est at leastright now urith this proposal but I'm concerned about r.lhat type of bufferspotentially could be there betpeen homes in the 3250,OOO.OO or $21O,OOO.OOrange that )zou said or the S15O,OOO.OO to $21O,OOO.OO and the types of
homes that 9o to the L,est- That really hasn't been addressed in these
schematics - I'm a little concerned that that housing density goes righL up-to the u:est there and I think there are s..ne natural buffers to the oorth
and to the south. To the uest there's thc' hishway there. Or excuse me, tothe east. So in general I like the fact that'it seems Like a natural thing -for a PUD. At least the criteria that ure discussed. I support that it'sbeing done that uiay. But f do have concerns about the density of it inrelationship to how it uould uork west. And that's it. That's the end of -my comments.
Plannin;
July 17,
Com,'nission
1991 - Page
Heet i n9
1
Emmings: And if you don't haul that vegetation away, it
Frank Sr.u oboda: It f alls down and dies so itsystem and continue to add more nutrients...
recycles?
recycles in theconstantly
Emnings; r can't tell from looking at the drar.r.i ngs that are in front of ushor'r much actuel area there is on a lot of these lots. on the Exhibit r,once voir set the r.retland in there and r assume that the purple line thai'son there is the wetland at the higher level that it's designed to bd ai- _after it's deeper - And then you get the wetr.and setback aiea. There's nota whole Iot of, it doesn't look Iike there,s a lot of room on the lot anJ--m going to be interested to see what kind of ground He've got there. rthink it should be done as a puD. r think you'Je obviously Jone atremendous amount of work trying to put something toEether that'sapprotrriate for the area. r don't think r have a probler with the density.but like Jeff mentioned, there's a Lot of those tols look ieal big;;J:;i'bourse Lhev're goin9 to be, €heire's a lot of uretrand area. ert-i-tiiik'itshould be developed as a puD. Just one other question r have. There was acomment made over here that, I don't remember who made it nora. Haybe itwas Eric. But someone said that the problems r.rith tne imouit of nutrientsth6t are in that area at this time is a vestige of it's use as anagricultural area- rs that right? can you maybe answer that one quick?rs the problem that there were a lot of iertilizers "i-="r.thins on that atone time that's still makins that nutyient rich? fs tf,ii iiue:
Frank Svoboda: That certainly, what happens is there's only tu,o u,aysnutrients can Ieave a wetrand. Either it's frushed ;ra ;i;; ;;4";-;;"nit's suspended or else uhen it,s tied up in the ""s"iiii;n. you come inand cut the vegetation and haul it away.
Emmjngs: Is there something you can do about that before you put this alIpermanently under water?
Frank Sr,,oboda: Uell r.le were somewhat facetiously talking about this theolher dav. The suggestion came up to drain it and pui-.irn-"n it for about3 or 4 vears and don't put anv fertirizer on it. rare att.tne vegetati;;--off and you take all the crop off and basically the "on."qu.n".s is you tiethe nutrients up in the growing materiar and tiren yo" r,i"r-it out of there.And thev've done this r.rith cattails for example in some insiances wherethev've allowed the cattails to reach a certain stage of nutrientconcentration and then come in and cut arl the catt;ils off and haul themaway.
Emmings: You said facetiously right?
Frank svoboda: r^lell the answer is you're not going to or you can't turnthat into a corn field anvmore because it's a protected weliana. Theconcept is that vou do something like thei. you raise a crop, r.rheth'er it'scorn or cattails or Lrhetever. That is really.the only wa), to get rid ofthat nutrient accumulation. you get it suspendea in Lhe waier-and flush .itout or tie it up in...and harvest it.
Emmings: So r.that's your plan then? Uhat are r.re doing u,iLh that?
Planni ng
July 77,
Comrnission tleet i ns
7991 - Page 52
Frank Svoboda: The third alternalive is to add more r^,ater uith less
nutr ients i n it .
Frank Svoboda: If you reduce orenter into the system, then over
those levels t,;iIL diminish.
stabilize the
some extended
amount of nutrients thatperiod of time , gradually
Emmings: Alright. and what about it continuing to be fed by back yard
runoff from the use of fertilizers? -
Frank Svoboda: That's one of the benefits of the PUD is that you can
increase that setback in Lhe backyards and then you have that striP of
natural vegetation betu,een the cultured laun and the edge of the wetland.
So that standing vegelation that remains natural urould catch, will
intercept any nutrient rich runoff before it gets into the wetland. So by
going to the PUD concept you've accomplished two things. One is thatyou've minjmally reduced the amount of area that's cultured grass and is
subject to fertilizatio,, across the entire subdivision. Secondly, you
uould have this natural buffer that will pick up any of the nutrient rich
urater and retein the nutrients there in the upland and hold it.
Ernrnings: !.Jhat's going in this natural buffer area? Is it trees? Shurbs?
Grass or aII three or urhalever? tlhalever happens to grow there?
Frarrk Svoboda: l.,jel I primarily right now, depending on urhere
it's either trees, variety of species or mostly grown grass.they're at.
Emmings: So you're just 9oin9 to ]eave what's there? Is that the idea?
Frank Svoboda: Right. And the other thing is, Terry's ansuler was, if we
raise the water level . we're going to increase or shift that zone of
saturation so now it's canary grass and cattails and grown grass uilI turn
into canary grass or something else. In terms of I think a couple of
spoLs l4e did talk about introducing some other vegetation.. One location
was here where we have this curve in this public street and the idea was to
steepen this slope 2:1. Hake it 2:1 slope to minimize uhat encroachmentthere might be into that wetland. Then the other offsetting factor r.loul d
be some habitat landscaping
Emmings: I can tell you one thing that's going to be of interest to us iswhat kind of, how is that we're going to keep people from pushing their
Iawn mowers into the conservation area. Is there goin9 to be a siren thatgoes off r^rhen they do that because thaL's going to happen. It's happened tous over and over.
Terry Forbord: I'll just touch upon that briefly because that is somethingthat Lhe City should deal r.rith. Not just nour but also in the future andwe've alreacly dealt with that in a couple of areas. Some of them right
here in Chanhassen and very recent in Trapper's Pass 4th but in another
example r.rould be in a neighborhood community that we've recently developedin PlymouLh called Bay Point on Mooney Lake. There's a number of things
Emrnings: And then over time the hope br. the plan is that that r.rilI what?
Planning
Ju)y !7,
Cornnission Meet i n9
1991 - Page 53
you do. Deed restrictions on each lot. Easements thatand enf c,rce enL aspects that the municipaLity has.
run with the ]ot
Emmings: I think we've talked from time to time here about havingsomething that marks it on the property. r think that should be ihere.visjble reminder +-o each property o*ner that uJhat's beyond that point intheir yard isn't just theirs.
A
Terry Forbord: Additi.onally you know and this was raised at theneighborhocd meeLing. I haven't shared urith you any of the discussion thatoccurred at that. rt r^,as about a 3 L/z hauy meeting. r considered it.veiiprodttctive. One of the people r^rho Live north of Laie Lucy Road in CuriyFarms sharec r.rith me afterwards, they said one of the things that r.Jasfrustrating for them Has that lhere was never any informatlonal packetgiven to thern so they knew uhat uras occurring the day that they Lought thehouse. uelI in aII of our neighborhoods an informational packet is-part ofthe purchase agreement as an exhibit that goes into detail all theeasemerrts tha! exist on their particular Iot. uhat they can and they can'tdo.
Emni ngs :
end.
Terry Forbord: But that doesn't suggest thatjcb and ure 're looking at that and ule're tryingthe very things that you raise Steve so those
maybe we can't do a betterto find Hays to accomplishare good poi nts.
Farmakes moved, Batzli seconded to adjourn the meeting. Alland the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:30
Emmings: Does anybody got anything else or can ue .leave?
Subnitted by Paul KraussPlanning D i r ector
Prepared by Nann Opheim
voted in favor
P.m. -
Give them the packet and then tell them there's a test at the
Gty of Chanhassen
590 Coulter Drive
P.O. Box 147
Chanhassen, MN 55317
July 1$ 1991
Letter to:
Planning Commission Members
Paul Krause - Planning Drector
Jo Ann Olsen - Senior Planner
Dear Planning Commission Members and Staff,
The purpose of this letter is to outline my concems and recomrrendations with res?ect to the proposed Lundgren
brotherc developnrent on l.ake Lucy Road. I feel that the staff has done good work in bringing the proFrt to this
point. The site is very difficult to develop due to the wetlands, valleys, and mature trees on the site; and due to
the impact on hke Lucy downstream.
I also feel that the plan can be improved by addressing the oncems and recomrnendations outlined below. I
understand that the PUD guidelines that will apply to this and to future developments are being worked out as
this proposal is being reviewed, so my comments apply both to the proposed development and to provisions that
might be contained in the PUD guidelines.
1. Blendinp with adiacent neiehborhoods. There are two Droblems in this reeard with the DroDos€d olan. The
lots are too small, and the price range of the proposed homes ($150K to $210K) is too low. Homes on the west
side of the development should be on larger lots, and be priced in the $250K to $350K rante to be compatible
with existing homes along the shore of Lake Lucy to the west. [.ots on the south side of the development
should be larger to blend in with the Greenwood Shores neighborhood. The overhead slide used by the
developer (in the informal presentation to the plannint commission) that shows the platting of the proposed
development alonS with the platting of existing neighborhoods graphically illustrates the severity of this
problem.
Recommendation: Eshblish guidelines that provide for reasonable transitions between a new development
and existing homes to protect the invesEnents that people living in the community have made in thefu homes.
2. Impact of the road (west exit). The road on the west side is shown cutting through valleys, hillt and stands of
mature trees ... rather than following the natural ontours of the property as does the existing driveway. It
also exits on Lake Lucy Road at a point that impacts the enky-way of the existing home across the street.
Recommendation: The road should be noved to exit in the location of the existing driveway to save the
mature oaks, birch, aspen, and other rrature trees on the beautiful knoll on the northwest corner. The existing
driveway Iocation does not impact the home across the street. Moving the road to the east may have a slitht
impact on the wetland to the east, but it will eliminate the impact to the wetland on lhe west, and prev€xrt
the knoll from being destroyed. This is a sensible tradeoff, as it prcserves features far more valuable to the
environmmt.
3. Visual imPact of'backyards". The view from lake Lucy Road would be into the backyards of the proposd
sites. This is a layout that community planners have worked hard to eliminate in other developments... the
Iake Riley Hills development is a recent erample.
Recommendation: It is recommended in item 2 (above) that th.l road be moved to the east in tfre region of Ure
exit to Preserve the knoll and wetland to the west. Moving e!! or most of the road up to the boundary of the
Class A wetland, and creating fewer (larger) building sites on the south and west side of the rrettand rvould
eliminate a great deal of this problem. It would also eliminate the need to completely fill wetland #5 as is
proposed. Normally it is not desirable to locate a road between the site and a natural amenity; however, lhe
rolling hills,valleys, and wooded areas behind these sites are also beautiful natural amenities that can be
enpyed from backyards. This layout would cuform to the natural terrain, and would allow homes to be sited
in beautifu! locations with minimum disturbance to the environment.
4. Impact on the Class A wetland and L:ke Lucy, There ard two related concerns in this regard.
lI1, the prgposal to rais€ the level of water from one foot to 2-3 feet is a step in the right direction.
Unforhrnately, this mayrot be enough ofa change to promote diversity of ptint life ani maintain op€n water.
One concern is that the fertilizer from backyard runoff and the natural-pro&s of eutrophication wili promocthe creation of solid cattails and purple lo6sestrife in this area within i short period oi time. Also, there isnolhing in the proPosal to Tarooe.th€ Phosphorus pollutants deposited by 20 yean of farming this area. Thesepollutans will continue to be carried into.Gke Lucy. ffris prop6sl aoes f,g iirprove tfre wett--and, but only
makes it worse as the pollutants ftom an &crssive numuerbf developed tots ftoi,v into it
Second, the runoff from the prorysed_37 siEs drains dtuectly into the wetlands. The derreloper baflled many ofus with the len_8thy dirussion of the nVaker model" hotding pond concept, and their concim for theenvironment. However they. did not show how the. concept;tley talked ibout fit into an overall drainagesystem. Because of the terrain and the location of the hotding ponds, only a small percentage of fe*ilizfrlawn runoff *'ill be carried by storm sewers into the tryo hordlng ponds. Fertilizer ana otler'polutants fro-the 37 lawns drain directly into the wetland. For example, thelillutants ftom the 14 siresaround the Class Awetland drain directly into it. These pouutants then flow from'the Oass A wetland through a piF to tredePosited directly into the Class B wetland downstream, and from there into kke Lucy. fiea"y iains *,iucSrrylhese Pollutants directly into the Class B wetlands ... creating a "shock" loading on the environmentthat kills wildlife.
Recommendations: First, the nutrients contained in the Oass A wetland should be removed. The developertalked about growing com and removing the corn plants each year for a few years as a possible method. A morelastlng imProvement would be made by removing the nuEients by excavating the Chsi A wetland to rernovethe nutrient rich soils at the bottom of_the pond. -This would not only remov! the polluants, but would create adeeper pond which would sustain a diversity of plant life and w d-life for decad'es.
Second, the holding ponds should be incorponted into an overall drainage system design that msures thatmost of the flow into Lake Lucy from this d_evetopment passes thrcugh ti'emi One idea"mght be to locate themsouth of the Class A wetland so that the pouulants flowing from this-wetland would be buifered by the trroholding ponds before entering the Class B wetland. Also, iroving the road to the boundary oi rtre weuana(recommended in #3 above) would ensure that most of the lawn rinoff would flow into stoim sewers rather thandirectly into the wetland.
5. Excessive number of variances. The proposal calls for eleven variances for wetland setbacks, complete fillingof two wetlands for the sole purpose of makhg more loti, and partial filling of four other wetland areas. Ttn
lorr.tmunity simPly cannot allow this kind-of precedent to be seti We cannot-send out a signal to developers thar"8oint the PUD route" is the way to avoid Chanhassen's enforcement of wetland ordinarices.
Recommendation: The main problem with the Ersbo/Ortenblad proposal is that the developer is proposing to
Put too rnany lots into this delicate mvironment. If all of the sit* w-ere as large as the Esbro site ind'Ortenblad site the Problem would be less severe. This is compounded by the-fact that the developer feels rhat
.
he is operating within city tuidelines.
During the public.hearings for the gmprehmsive plarl there was much dirussion by the planning coimission
and-city council about the density of divelopment around Lake Lucy tnd L:ke Ann.' City officialJcalmed thepublic concern by sa)4ng that these ar! 9_nlftle1iae1i1gl ... not actuat "zoning" requirem6nts The problem is
that.there is-no density tuideline established that falls between the rural (tdacre minimum) and'the singtefamily low density (1.221o 4 homes per acre) guidelines.
A zoning guideline in the neighborhood of one to two acre minimum should be estabtislEd. This zoning should
be applied to all existing lots in the steep terrain on the north shore of lake Lucy where drainage flows into
the lake. This will promote sensible long term development of this area that is sensitive to the environment,
rather than implementation of hastily planned proposals sensitive only to the economics of the moment.
I appreciate your consideration of these ideas. I am confidmt that the plaming commission and staff will work
with this developer to creete a development plan that is suitable for this arca.
Sincerely,
Morin
Irl4l Iake Lucy Road
Chanhassen, MN 55317
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Pc DATE: 8/7/91
CC DATE: 8/72/9L
CASE #:89-2 PUD,
-3 SITE
1-8 SUB
91
9
STAFF REPORT
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Southlrest corner of the intersection of Market Boulevardand West 78th Street
PROPOSAL:1)
2)
3)
LOCATION:
APPLICANT:
55356
for an 8,355 Square Foot Bank
Bank Building to Uarket
Lon Lake, !O{
Site Plan RevlewBuildirig,
PUD Amendnent to Add asquare Shopping Center
KRJ Associates
P O Box 635
PUD, Planned Unit Development
40, OOO square feet
N.
E-w-
or and CBD
vacant
, Fillyrs and Hotel
BG,
CBD
BG
WATER AND SEWER:Available to the site.
PHYSTCAL CHARjACTER.: A level parcel.
2OOO I,AND USE PI,AN:Cornrnercial
Replat a Portion of Outlot A, t[arket Square
fntg -a 40, OOO Square Foot Ipt and a 39-, EOO SquareFoot Lot
CITY OF
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENSTTY:
ALTACENT ZONING AND
I,AND USE:
Americana Community Bank
August 7, L99L
Page 2
PROPOSAL,/STJ],IMARY
on october 8, 1990, the City Council approved the final PUD planfor a shopping center subject to conditions described in the
attached report. The site included 3 outlots containing a proposedveterinary clinic and a cleaners and one vacant outlot (Outlot A)with an area of 79,945 square feet. The shopping center remains
undeveloped due to financing difficulties, however, these are in'the process of being resolved and construction is 1ikely to startin September. The current request is for the construction of a
8,365 square foot bank building on the north half of Outlot A.
The site plan is rrell developed. The architecture of the bankbuilding attenpts to reflect the shopping centerrs use of stucco
accent tiles, columns and gabled entries as well as the roof lineof the Country Suites Hotel. This type of architecture isconsistent lrith the rest of the shopping center. Staff is
proposing that the roof Line of the bank be revised to accentuatethe gables and to ensure that the shingles are of the type used onthe Country Suites Hotel which resembl.e uood shakes' fron adistance. one highly attractive feature of the site is theinclusion of a pedestrian pJ.aza at the intersection of west 78thStreet and Market Boulevard. A four lane drive-thru is provided tothe south of the building. Car stacking for vehicles waiting to go
through the drive-thru wil] be on the south portion of the site
away frorn West 78th Street. The location for the drive-thru isappropriate as it places car stacking away fron west 78th Street.
The drive-thru is screened by the bank building fron west 78thStreet. Upon review of the drive-thru by the Engineering
Department, it sas found that the proposed turn radius for thedrive-thru exit was inadeguately sized. Alternatives to addressthe problen and acguisition of additional land to the south orreversing the turn Lane direction of flow should be subnitted. Thesite landscaping is generally of high quality due to the attentionthat r,ras paid to this issue by Etaff and the applicant. Additionallandscaping is being reguested north and west of the site acrossfron the parking area.
Sj,te access has been a major concern of staff through the design ofthis proposal. The applicant originally requested two accesspoints, one via Market Boulevard and the second through West TgthStreet. Staff strongly opposed the li[arket Boulevard curb cutnoting traffic safety concerns and the fact that this entrance uasspecifically prohibited by the PUD agreenent. After a nunber- ofrneetings rrith the applicant, the Market Boulevard curb cut vaseliminated and the curb cut on west Tgth Street was refined to
a11ow a right turn lane only for traffic eastbound and a nedian cutallowing left turns for traffic westbound. A traffic studyconducted by Strgar, Roscoe and Fausch, Inc. has been subrnitted to
Arnericana cotnnunity Bank
August 'l , L99l
Page 3
the City in support of thi's curb cut and new nedian cut on west78th Street.
S TTE PI,AN IEW
The bank representatives berieve that the l{est ?8th street curb cutis critical to their operation. Fron a design standpoint, webel.ieve this change is not likely to undernine th6 effectiveness ortraffic flow on west ZSth Street-. Horrever, it is necessary to notethat the City Engineering DepartDent iontinues to trive sone.reservati.ons with the nedian cut. staff notes that the west 78thstreet curb cut does not specificalry ser:ve the bank but ratherrrould connect to the nain driverray for the shoppl4g center. I{ey"!ld. strongly reconmend . against any nediari - bliaks eervingindividual sites. _ Ultinately, the p-lanning conmi s sl on-,
- ciayCouncil and HRA will need to nake a detetiination if it i;acceptable on aesthetic grounds. Since at least part of theland-'caped rnedian would be rost if the nedian cut is .!pro.r"a. rfit_ is approved, the bank should pay for all assoc'iltla -"o=t"
related to studying, designing and Lonstructing this curb cut.
rn an acconpanying s'tdivision request, the outrot is being dividedinto two lots, one of rrhich nirl iontain the bank u"iiaii.,6 iia tu.second of which wirr be reserved for future devel0pneit. rn"subdivision reguest is a reratively straight forward iJti"n. Theplat shour.d be corrected as reguirLd to ieflect an additiJnal rofeet- of _right-o-f-way arong west z8th street that has ueen i"quireaby the City under the Developnent Agreenent.
:i::g_!??l the foregoing, _sraff is recommending that the planningconni-ssi-on approve the site pran, subdivision and planned unitdeveloprnent anendment requests for this proposar wittr allrtpriateconditions.
General Site PI an./Architecture
The buirding is situated at the southwest corner of t{est 78thStreet and Market Boulevard. Access is galned off of a proposedcurb cut on west Tgth street. staff will discuss in de€ail theaccess aspect later in the report. parking is located to the westof the proposed building. vehicle stacking is located south of thesite and the building so that direct dlstint vlews fron west TBthstreet, to the north of the site wilr be nininized. Direct vierrsof -the stacking lanes wlll be screened by the bullding andlandscaping fron the norttr of the site. rhe architecture oi thebank building refrects the shopping centerrs use of stucco accenttiles, columns -and gabled entriCs. - colors and nateriaf iypes neeato be specified for staff approval . Iow gabled roofs and'i strongmasonry base comprete the bankrs image for the prorninent cornersite. The applicant has failed to shon a root top equipurent
Arnericana connunity Bank
August 7, l99L
Page 4
screening plan. Such should be subnitted prior to the City Councilneeting. The applicant is showing the trash enclosure screened by
a masonry waI1 using the Eane naterials as the building and locatedon the southeast corner of the buildling. Etro electric boxesoperated and maintained by NSP, as nel.l as an air conditioningunj,t, are located to the southeast corner of the site. These unitsare screened by a bern and landscaping to the north, east and
south.
While we are generally satisfied with the building architecture and
note that the applicant has uorked extensively on this project, wedo have several main concerns. These incLude the illustratedbuilding addition on the north side of the building paralleling
west 78th Street, the incorporation of what appears to be an
extended canopied entrance into the plaza area, and the buildingroof line. As to the first issue, a building addition has beenillustrated on the north side of the structure. This had been
incorporated into earlier plans and was intended to representpotential future expansions of the bank facility. Upon review ofthe pLans, staff concluded that there was insufficient parking to
support a building addition on this site and believed we had coneto an understanding wherein the addition was to be deleted fron theplans. We wish to uake it clear that this building addition is not
supported by staff and we do not believe we rrill be in a positionto reconmend approval of it in the future. we are therefore
recommending that it be deleted fron final plans for the project.
The site on which this bank is situated is a highly visible one atrrhat is highly likely to become one of the Dost inportantintersection in the chanhassen eBD. Setting an architectural
standard for this bank is difficult in part due to its Location.
The PUD approval requires architectural consistency with the nain
shopping center building. Houever, at the sane time, this site isessentially the transition point fron the shopping center site intoarchitecturaL styles found elsewhere in the CBD. Therefore, webelieve that the architectis intent to conbine the style of theshopping center building, along nith other dolrntown buildings suchas the Country Hospitality Suites, is a sound one. t{e continue tohave sone concerns over the visual massiveness of this building andits proxinity to the Etreet. fn part, these concerns will beaddressed by ensuring that the buililing naintains a 25 foot aetbackfrom the publi.c right-of-way required elsewhere in the shoppingcenter as well as by the taking of an additional. 10 feet alonq West78th street lrhich will be reserved for the inclusion of a iecondthru-lane when it is needed in the future. However, we continue tobe concerned about the massiveness' of the rooi Line and theinclusion of retatively dininutive dorners to break this up. Wewould p.ropose that the dormers be increased in size to break up theroof line or that sone other structuraL design for the roof beconsidered. I{e believe a peaked roof is essential on this
Arnericana conmunity Bank
August 7, L99L
Page 5
structure but are requesting that the applicantrs architect besoner.rhat nore creative in addressing tlris concern. How thisconcern is addressed siII also have soue bearing on our issueconcerning the HVAC screening nentioned above as nL1I.
The third concern pertains to the.pIans for a canopled entrance onthe northwest corner of the building. staff supports the inclusionof a highly accentuated nain entranle .but wantJ to ensure a 25 footsetback fron the right-of-way is naintained fron all structuies andwe define the canopy as part of tbe structure. The D]ans aresoEelrhat n-isleading on this point since it appears- as ihough thecanopy r{rould extend out over a portion of the patio area. 6ue tothe Lack-of tine, we hav€ not had an opportunity to explor- thisnore fu11y uith the project architect -but are iertain-that thisnatter could be resolved in the final plans.
Pa rki nql fnterior Circulation
The Cityrs. parking ord-i-nance requires one parking space per 2OOsquare feet of gross floor area. The nunber of- pa-rking'spacesreguired is 34 and the .applicant is providing 35 iarfini "iu..=which satisfies the requirenents of th6 ordinanie. rr.iri"- rirr u.directed via west 78th street 5unning paralrel to the ".=t.riv .aq.of the site then headed east into the bank site. Traffic eiitiigthe site rrould either use an exit located at the southtist - cornerof the site or utilize the sane entrance located to the east of the
iit::. A stop sign is proposed at that location t- Egtrf atetra ffic.
rn general, the interior circulation and entrances are reasonablein. our view. The proposed exit along the south property line isintended to- becone part of the entrante/exit to w'rratlvei aeveropson.the southern portion of outlot A. The renaining area of outlotA is unlikely-to be able to support any other entfances and exitsapart fron this one. A cross acceds eisenent running in favor ofb-oth lots being created, fron Outlot A, over this driv-evay and overthe northern 30 feet of the lot to be created Eouth of the bank,will be required.to ensure that this element can be incorporated.However, during review- of the access proposal by the engineeringDepartroent, a- problen has surfaced. When turning tenplites wereput on the drive-thru lanes, it becare clear that tars Lxiting thesite lrould be unable to conplete the turn requlred to transitioninto the exit lane. Again, this problen surfaced too late to beable to discuss it more fu11y with the project designer. There areseveral possible rrays of addresslng this iLsue. Th; first would beto incorporate-a l.arger radius turn shich would require the takingof additional land off of the southeast corner of ihe site or thereversal of traffic flow through the facility. There nay in factbe other alternatives and we wourd be open to suggestioni fron theproject designer as to how to resolve €tris issu6.-
Arnericana Conmunity Bank
August 7, l99l
Page 5
Access
There are tr,ro sets of access points requiring discussion. Thefirst is the internal access onto the shopping center drivewaysystem. The second concerns proposed revisions to the shoppingcenter access fron West 78th Street. As to the first question,there are trro access points being proposed off the internaldriveway systen. The northern nost access is the roajor site
entrance which rill serve the parking lot and the drive-thrufacilities as proposed. In discussions rrith staff, rre found soDedifficulty in providing safe access to this site since ue rranted toprovide the maxinun offset separation betereen this site entrance
and the najor shopping center entry point on West 78th Street. webelieve the current proposal is acceptable and resoLves this
concern.
The second entranct= point is the proposed exit ]ying adjacent tothe south edge of the site. As proposed, this vill serve as theexit to the drive-thru 1anes. In the future, this exit would be
shared with a new entrance to serve lrhatever is to be located onthe reroaining undeveloped area on Outlot A to the south. Staff
supports this option noting that, due to the reLative linited sizeof the newly created lot on the south portion of Outlot A and itslocation adjacent to the nai.n entrance to the shopping center frontlarket Boulevard, this future connon entrance point, ehared withthe bank, is likely to be the only Deans of entering and exitingthis site that can be allowed. Staff is reconmending that cross
access easenents be established in favor of both the bank parcel
and the future Iot to the south to guarantee that the Ehared access
arrangement can rrork in the future.
One of the najor points of discussion betlreen staff and theapplicant on this proposa). concerned external entrances into thesite. The applicantrs original position was that they rrantedentrances to the bank fron both West 78th Street and fron llarketBoulevard. staff noted that any additlonal curb cuts into theMarket square site are specifically prohibitett by the approved pUD
p1an, however, at the applicantts request we did have the cityrstraffic consultant, Strgar, Roscoe and Fausch prepare an analylisof both proposed curb cuts. Their report is attached to the staffreport. Essentially, they agreed with the cityrs original positionthat a Market Boulevard curb cut into this site is unacceptablefron a traffic safety standpoint. There are siroply too nanytraffic novenents occurring with southbound cars -on MarkeLBoulevard a!.tenpting to decelerate and Dove to the right to turninto the main shopping center entrance and cars froro making a Leftturn to Market from West 78th Street accelerating. A final problenoccurs with the proposed signalization of the intersection West78th Street and Market Boulevard that is currently underconsideration by the HRA and City Council. The sRF study concludes
Amer j-cana Connunity Bank
August 7, 1997,
Page 7
that the stacking of vehicles waiting for the light to turn greenhrould extend beyond the point at ,hich the curb cut had beenproposed.
Discussion then focused on the proposed north nedian cut into theshopping center fron west ?8th Str;et. A right-in/right_out onlyentrance to the n-ain shopping center drive Uda ilways beenincorporated- into pla_ns at inis -point. The bank r s requ-si larreafor the inclusion of a median tut so that westbo""& w".t -ieih'
street traffic could turn into the shopping centei site.Representatives from the bank believe that this e-ntrance is vitalto their operation. The sRF study indicatea trric trrls "orrra u.incorporated fron a traffic safety -standlpoint. ri ueJine iiear tostaff that the only rrpy rre could support itris was that tire sfroppintcenter entrance continue to be struttured aa a right-in/rijrrt-outon1y, thus traffic would be unab]e to exit trre srropiing Eenl3r siteat this point crossing zSth street median to nake-i 16ft turn ontowestbound west 78th street. westbound traffic on weit-isitr-streetwou1d,, however, be able to turn into the Dlarket Square site.
Staff would never tant to be in a position of recoranending'a nedian
:::__t:_=_:Te -a specific site. we beLieve it wouta i. irigirrilnappropriate to do so since this would in essence estabr.ish a newturning nove:nent to the benefit of a singl" pi"p.rty io thedetrinent of arr traffic flowing t-hrough the d-ownt6nn I rojr"r"., ,"berieve this request is sornewhai diffelent. iri= ,.di.n-irii'wouranot specifically serve the bank but would directry se-rve -ttie rnainshopping center driveway systern. Fron the studiei irrii-t.". r.."done, ue believe that it could probably be fncorporitea in anacceptabre manner fron.a traffic slfety slandpoint. 'w- nust pointout though that in spite of the sRF study, itre city -rnjineiring
Departnent continues to have sone reserva€ions witu tuis'ieguest.The ultimate decision as to rrhether or not ttris snouta-uE r"Er.rra.atruly rests in the hands of the comnission, city co,-ci1 -i"a trr"HRA. lluch of this decision nirl rest on an aestheiic aetErninationas to whether or not the_ city vishes to see landscaping in tt"center rnedian island a1q bg conpronised to soDe aegree' to- supportthe turning novenent. Final designs of this curb cu-C tir" ,roi r".r,developed and there is sone expectatlon on the part oi stiii tuatwe wourd be abre to salvage Duch of the landseaplng that occurs inthis area. I{e are currently in the process of -asliinq SRF to lookat -possible de-signs_ for this curb cut in conjunctidn -ritrr-trrer.
work on signalization of the dorntown inteisections -wrrictr iscurrently in process. Should this curb cut be approvea, as calfedfg.. _or this site plan, staff is recoromending '€nat iire tanf leliabre for ar.r costs associated with tne -tritt1"-.t"ay andconstruction of the curb cut.
Arnericana Conmunity Bank
August 7, l99L
Page 8
Landscan ing
Staff rrorked closely with the applicant to design the landscapingplan. Benning is proposed along the northeast and westerly portionof the site. Staff is reconmending additional screening along thenortherly edge of the site to block the parking lot area fron views
frolo t{est 78th Street.
Although the landscaping plan appears to be generally reasonable,
we do have several revisions to request. The first is that theplan does not specify tlrpe or size of all naterials. Final plans
should be developeCl that incorporate this and the size of aIL
rnaterials nust meet or exceed normal city standards. Secondly, a
hedge and bern is illustrated along the west 78th street exposure
rrest of the building. Grading detaiLs do not show a bern in thisarea and staff does not believe a significant berl[ can beincorporated, given the linited size of this area. We are
requesting that detaiLs of this area be provided for staff review.In addition, two additional over-story trees should be incorporateain this area.
Liqht ino
Lighting locations are illustrated on the pLans. Two light poles
are proposed. Only shielded fixtures are al.lowed and the applicantshall dernonstrate that there is no nore than .5r candles of lightat the property line. Plans should be provided to 6taff forapproval. Fixtures should natch those being used elsewhere in the
shopping center.
s iqna('e
The applicant has subnitted a signage plan. One nonumentidentification sign is proposed at the westerly entrance to thesite. The area of the monunent sign is 70 square feet. Theapplicant is also showing three 4-foot high wall nounted signs on
each building elevation.
Staff has sone concerns over the signage proposal. Although it isattractive, we believe that the nunber and size of the sJ.gns areexcessive rel.ative to other buildings in the shopping center asrrelL as other buildings in the CBD. The normal provisions of thesign ordinance are not applicable within the pUD and aII
deveLopment within it are subject to covenants approved by .thecity. we note that the 3 rraIl nounted signs appear appropliategiven the multiple exposure thls building has but note thit the
Chanhassen Bank has one najor !raI1 mounted sign even though itoccupies the entire south end of a city block. Having said that,lre are not sure which sign to recomnend be deleted since they eachappear to be appropriate given the design and location of the
Americana Colununity Bank
August 7, 199)-
Page 9
building. we are, however; going to reconmend that the size ofthese signs be reduced to a naxinum height of 3 feet which isconsistent with. -approvals granted for thJ MedicaL arts auifaint,which.was recentry considered by the pl.anning commission anal cii.iCouncil. civen the nunber of signs on the- building, we cannotsupport the currently proposed 4 foot height.
There is an additional _zo square foot monument sign proposed at thesoutheast corner of the- site adjacent, to the intirnir suoppint'center driveway. we_find no justification for this sign since trrebank brilding and a1I wa1l. nounted signage will be Ui6fr:.v visiUfefrorn this rocation. we are reconmendiig ihat trris si'g;;-J creieted.
]1_ its place, there shourd be diiectional "ig";;;
--iearry
illustrating the appropriate bank entrance and dfive--thru exitlanes.
Grad inq/ Dra inaoe
specific_ grading and drainage plans were not prepared for thissubnittal . Given current conditions on the srti aria-irre.liip"."asite p1an, grading activity is expected to be rniniro.i. - sib-r:n-""r".connections into the shopping center systen are iLlustriied inconcept, _bu-t prans have not been- developEd. we do not anticipai-any. signif icant probl.ens in this- rega-rd but f inai g;ding ""adrainage plans should be prepared foi approval by ttie cit!, inaddition to subnitting stor, wlter carcurations toi'ro-ina -tot y..,stom events. watershed District- approval of this pfi" uii U"required, although they have already -r:eviewed tfr" Joiping;-enterpLans.
Util ities
city utilities are available to the site. Final prans for utirltyconnection should be prepared for approval by st;ff.
Park and Trail Dedication
The Park and Recreation comrnisslon acted to recomnend that the cityaccept full park and trail dedication fees as part of thildevelopment. rees are paid at the tine of the buirdiig pe:mits arerequested.
Arnericana Conrnunity Bank
August 7, l99]-
Page 10
COI{PLIANCE TABLE WITH PUD ORDINANCE
As a PUD, nost of the usual ordinance
dirnensional criteria are waived.
provisions pertaining to
Building Setback
Required
251
N/A
34
Proposeal
251
73$
35
Hard surface coverage
Parking sta11s
SUBDTVI S I ON
The subdivision proposal is a relatively sinpLe request that will
serve to split the 1.6 acre outLot into two lots. The northerlylot wiII have an area of 4Or000 square feet and will be occupied bythe bank bui1ding. The southerly 1ot is vacant and there ls nodevelopnent proposed on the site at this tine. The final plat
needs to be revised to provide the additional 10 feet of right-of-
way along West 78th Street that ls being reguired by the City. Thefollowing easenents are either illustrated on the plat or should be
required:
Standard drainage and utility easenents around the perineterof both lots.
A utility easehent running in favor of NSP, located to thesoutheast corner of the buil.ding, 1Or x 30t.
The final plat for the entire llarket Square shopping centernust be subnitted to staff for'approval and filed with CarrrerCounty. The pLat needs to be revised, as does thiB requestedlot division to acconmodate the additional 10 feet of right-of-way along West 78th Street that is being reguired by thecity.
Cross access easenents need to be provided over the southdriveway and northern 30 feet of the newly created parcelLocated south of the bank on Outlot A.
1
2
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4
PLANNED I'NTT DEVE LOPMENT AII{ENDI,TENT
This application is consistent wlth the overall planned unitdevelopnent concept for Market Square. The only changL is the curbcut and rnedian cut access point off of West Tgth Streat. As stated
Arnericana Connunity Bank
August 7, 7991
Page 11
before, a study tas conductedsupporting this anendment.
by strgar, Roscoe and Fausch
While we beLieve that this proposal is consistent with the pUDguidelines established, ve note Etrat at the tine of writing the pUDagreenent, developDent contract and final. plat for Marked Square,they have not yet been finalized or recorded. A condition itroutabe added that no construction is to occur on the bank propertyuntil this docunentation' has been conpleted to the satisfa-ction ofthe city and a conEtruction tirne table has been established forinterior streets and utilities on the tlarket square.site ttrit wirrbe necessary to support the bank.
STAPF RECOMMENDATION
Staff reconmends theEotion:PJ.anning Conmission adopt the following
of Site PIan Revier,,
1991, subject to the
Site PlaD Revier
rrThe PLanning commission reconnends approval
#91-3 as sho$rn on the site plan dated .fu1y ZS,following conditions:
1
2
3
The applicant nust obtain a sign pernit prior to erectinq anvsignage on site. sigr plans stroufa be ievised to efininil3the nonurnent sign, reduce the waLl sign height to 3 feet andincorporate requested directional sigiage.
Additional landscaping shalL be provided along the north edge
".f !lr" site. as proposed in the staff report.- fhe applicaitshall provide staff sith a detailed cost estiiite oflandscaping to be used in calculating the required financialguarantees. These guarantees must be posted piior to buildinqpernit j.ssuance. provide a plant schedule lndicating the siz6and type of a1l pLant naterials for staff approval.-
The applicant shall enter into a developnent contract rrith thecity and provide the necessary financial securities asrequired. If the West 78th Street curb cut is approved, theapplicant sha1l be required to coropensate the iity eor attcosts related to its design and construction.
Revise architectural plans as follows:
. Incorporate dolTers of increased size or other acceptablemeasures to enhance the design 6f tne roof line.
. Provide detaiLs of HVAC screening.
Americana Conmunity Bank
August 7, L99l
Page 12
Incorporate the use of Tinberline or siroilar quality
shingles that provide an inage of a cedar shake ioof. -
Prcride details of building exterior treatnent indicating
consistency with shopping center construction.
Elininate the proposed building addition from the plans
since adequate parking cannot be provided on site.
. Revise plans as necessary to ensure that a 25 footsetback is provided to all portions of the building,including the entrance canopy.
Revise the plans as required to ensure that room is providedfor safe turning Dovements for cars exiting the drive-thru
1anes. rr
Park and trail dedication fees shallbuilding pennits are requested.
1
b
c
Standard drainage and utility easements around theperineter of all lots.
A 10' x 3Or utility easeDent located to the southeastcorner of the bank buil.ding running in favor of NSP.
The final plat for the entire li[arket Square shoppingcenter nust be subroitted to staff for approval and fileilwith Carver County. The plat needs to be revised, asdoes this requested lot division to acconmodate theadditionaL l0 feet of right-of-way along West ZBth Streetthat is being reguired by the city.
cross access easenents need to be provided over the southdriveway and northern 30 feet of the newly created parcellocated south of the bank on Outlot A.r
d.
PlaDDedl UDit DevelopEeDt lnandtDeDt
rrThe Planning Comrnission reconnends approval of an arnenduent to pUD
#89-2 as shown on plans dated July 29, 1991.n
5.
'rThe Planning conmission recohmends approval of Subdivision *91-8as sholrn on the plat dated July 29, 1991, with the foll.owing
conditions:
subalivisioD
be paid at time of
2. Provide the following easeroents:
Arnericana Community Bank
August 7, L99l
Page 13
ATTACHMENTS
1
2
3
4
5
Staff report dated tO/8/9O.
Memo from Park and Recreation Coordinator dated JuIy 29, Lgg]-.Arnericana Connunity Bank Traffic Study dated June-S, iSel.Project statenent.
Plans dated July 29, 1991.
lo,CITY OF
STAFF REPORT
(:'\ 89-2 ND .n*: Xrauss/v-UF-
PC DATE:
CC DATE:
cAsE #
By
to/8/eo
Fz
C)
=LL
E
trJFa
Amended Site Plan for PUD Development Stage Approvalfor Conmercial Planned Unit Development, t{arket Square
Southrrest Corner of llarket BouLevard and West 78th Street
PROPOSAL:
I,OCATION:
APPLICANT:
i.i::. r:,.- rar?
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENSITY:
PUD
12.1 acres
l -r :---- . . --.---
lir'J:.:------- -jr.. t " /{. 17 "__
D.:. Ssb"it!.:.j :f i .-.::
D.i3 Sgb'r:r:a r: :
ADfACENT ZONING AND
I,AND USE:N-
s
E
w
IO and CBD, Chan Bank, Realtor/Dr. Office- BGt vacant
- cBD, Flllyrs and Countly Suites Hotel- BG; Chaska Tool/Vernco
WATER AND SEWER:Availabl.e to the site
PHYSICAL CHARACTER. :Currently, a leve1 parcel
2OOO I.AND USE PI"AN:Cornmerc ia1
EHAI'IHISSEI[
Market Square Partnership
5775 Wayzata Blvd., Suite 820St. Louis Park, l,lN 55426
PROPOSAL/SIJ}IMARY
On October 23, 1989, the City Council approved the DevelopnentStage Plans for PUD *89-2 for Uarket Square subj ect to theconditions described in the attached report. Since that tine, asthe Council j.s aware, developnent has not yet been initiated andthe proj ect has gone through. an evolutionary process uhich is.concluding with the anended site plan being ieviewed i.n this
Ieport. The site plan anendments is focused on the change fron a20,000 square foot Super Value with an 8,OOO square foot expansionto the present plan which proposes a 35,OOO square foot FLstivalFoods llarket offering an additional 1O,OOO sguare foot buildingaddition. In the process of naking these uodifications, th;ultinate size of the nain shopping center building has increasedfrom. 91,134 square feet to 97 1954 square feet.- Sone of theoriginal retail space offered for general tenants has been replacedby the expanded market. The primary purpose for requesting anarnended -site-pIan_ approval at this tine is-so that the developerscan concluded their final leasing arrangenents with Festivar Fo-ods,lock in their financing package and iniliate construction within atine frame acceptable to the City.
Most of the changes to the site plan are relatively ninor and forthe nost part involve the area located in the vlcinity of thesupermarket site. The generaL site plan layout, parking lotdesign, and access provisions have not been chan-ged i; anysignificant rra-y !y the proposeq amendnent. In a slniiar loanner,site grading-, drainage and utilities renain unchanged. The parking1ot- design has been revised to increase the ntfrber ot iarXinista11s commensurate with the increase in the size of the sloppinicenter. This vas achieved by using 9 foot wide parking sLlfflinstead of the 10 foo!, wide plrking EtaLls on the -originit ptan.Since this plan was originally approved, the City parkin! ordinancehas been changed to allow parking stall width aown to B| feet, thusthe- rerrised palking plan -exceeds City standards. AlI originalsetbacks offered by the oliginal plan are naintained by the cuirentproposal. In sunmary, it. is our belief that the ievised planresults in no najor new issues for consideration by the eityCouncil. If the revisions uere Dore substantialf ve wouldrecommend that this iteu be referred back to the planning
Commission for reconsideration, however, we do not believe this iithe case.
There are, however, severaL ninor issues that we believe should beaddressed in new conditions appended to the original conditions ofapproval . These include the following:
1. A revised landscaping -plan should be subroitted illustratinglandscaping of the building addition area for Festlval FoodE.
Market squareSite Plan Amendnent
October 8, 1990
Page 2
Market SquareSite PIan Amendment
October 8, 1990
Page 3
2
At a mininum, this area should be sodded or seeded andprovided with sufficient trees to nake this an attractivesetting until it is built upon.
A raised concrete display platforn has been incorporated infront of the Lar{n and Sports Center. Staff obj ects to theproposal to a1low exterior display of merchandise for sale infront of the shopping center 'believing that if such isalloued, it would be very difficult to control it and linit itto this site. In addition, outdoor display of.merchandise isnot pernitted throughout the comnunity in spite of tlroexisting examples that currently exist along West 78th Street.with the opening of ltarket Square, the two businesses whichcurrently have exterior storage of materials for sale viII be
moving into the shopping center and it is hoped that thisproblen could be eliuinated. Therefore, staff is reconmendingthat the raised concrete display platfoms be renoved.
Revised buiJ.ding elevations should be subroitted for staff
approval . A good deal of tiroe and effort was expended by boththe Planning Co'nrnission and City Council to ensure that this
shopping center is an attractive addition to the Chanhassen
CBD. We believe that the approved architecture vas of veryhigh quality and that this should not be lost through the
redesign process. The appLicant has assured staff that it istheir intent that the Festival Foods be designed to
accommodate the architectural thene that was adopted for thebalance of the center and sinilar to one which uas used forthe previously proposed Super Value Store. However, they notethat the final design has not been drafted and that theelevations will need to be revised due to the differentbuilding footprint and store entrance locations being proposedfor the gaterray store. If staff is given the opportunity toreview these p1ans, ue would do one of the following:
a. If the plans are believed to be consistent vith thearchitectural thenes approved with the orlginal sitep1an, rre wouLd authorize itrs construction.
If, holrever, there is a substantial question as tolrhether or not the architectural goals have beenachieved, rre rrould return the building elevations to thePlanning Commission and City Council for review.
STAFF RECOMMENDATION
J
b
Based upon the foregoing, staff is reconnending approval of the
amended final developrnent stage slte plan for l,[arket Square subjectto the following conditions:
llarket SquareSite Plan Amendment
October 8, 1990
Page 4
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3
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5
Subrait a revised landscaping plan illustrating plant Daterialin the future expansion area of the Festival Foods Store andof the revised parking 1ot island configuration.
Subhit final building elevations to staff for adninistrativeapproval or, if detemined by Etaff to be inconsistent rriththe original p1an, to be returned to the planning Connissionand city Council for review.
ELininate the outdoor display area from in front of the Lawnand Sports Center. ALL outdoor display of nerchandise in theshopping center is prohibited. I{erthandise contained inscreened outdoor storage areas is exempt fron thisrequirernent.
Enter into a PUD contract with the City that will contain aIIof the conditions of approval. and which vill be recordedagainst aII.lots platted in the project. fhe pUD agreenentshould provide for a landscape bond as outlined in the staffreport.
The final plat sha1l reflect a 20 foot utility easenent forthe proposed City water line over the southerly portion of thesite.
The applicant shal.l enter into aprovide the necessary security.developnent contract and
confirn that the Vet Clinic niII havenorth and rest elevations i
windows on the
The applicant shall enter into a pUD contract with the City.
Enter into a developnent pontract rrith the City that requiredfinancial sureties with construction plans to-be approfed by
!h. city Engineer and city councit for aii publiij.nprovenents .
Revise architectural plans as needs to:
7
8
o
trash enclosures are to be constructed fron rock facedblock conpatible with the main building;
rel.ocated the trash enclosure serving the dry cleaner tothe nest side of the building or incorporate it into thestructure i
ogtdoor storage areas are to be enclosed by a rock facedblock uaII,
6.
llarket SquareSite Plan Amendment
October 8, 1990
Page 5
10.
the trash coEpactor is to be provided l,ith a rock facedblock screen uall and relocated to the north to providea 24 foot wide drive aislei and
the addition of any drive-up windows will require siteplan approval wherein lt ui1I be the applicantrsresponsibility to denonstrate that internal circutationpatterns and parking provisions will not be inpacted.
Outlot A is required to have buildings designed to utilizearchitecture conpatible uith the shopping center. Noadditional access will be provided to serve Outlot A. OnIy
one additional nonument sign is to be allowed with the outlotis developed. The site nust be identica} to monument signage
allowed elsewhere on the PUD. Until developnent occurs, the
or.rner shal1 establish ground cover over the site and keep itin a maintained condition. Parking requirements for theoutlot should be satisfied on it.
11. Uodify and/or regulate access parking as follous: '
provide a triang"ular traffic islandStreet curb cut i
in the West 78th
delete the sidewalk south of the crossrralk that connectsto the sidewalk in front of the supernarket. Apedestrian crosswalk sha1l be installed on l,larket
Boulevard at a location deternineil by the city Engineer.
The crosswalk shall be painted and signed in accordancewith the requirenents of Minnesota llanual on Trafficcontrols.
elirninate the nine (9) northern stalls located on the
east side of the supernarket e:<pansion and nodify the VetClinic parking area to provide a turning space at the endof the aisle;
alL leases for the uain building should require that
ernployee parking be located at the rear of the center;
any restaurants proposed in the center are subj ect to asite plan review procedure. ft will be the appllcantrsresponsibility to denonstrate parking adequacy if lt isto be approved. The restaurant spaces illustrated in thetwo northern tenant spaces in the nain building are
exempt froro this requirenent i and
all parking lot curbing shall be B-6/L2 concrete.
12. The landscaping plan should be nodified as follows:
- increase the size of conifers along the south propertyline from 6t to 1O-12ii
- retnove the snow storage area along Uarket Boulevard andlandscape the. Epace;. and
- cooperate with City staff in providing a reLocation planfor the existing landscaping along Uarket BouLevard andWest 78th Street.
13. Provide- final. grading and drainage plans for approval. Theplans should incorporate the follbwing:
- storn selrers shaLl be sized for a ten (10) year storn.Revised drainage calcuLations shalL fe iOhittea io tfre' City Engineer for approval;
Market Squaresite Plan Amendnent
October 8, 1990
Page 5
14.
- the 72rr storm sewer is to be installed by the developer;
- installation of the line should be covered by thedevelopnent contract. The City can reasonably a1lowbuilding pernits to be issued witir the unaerstanai"td;ithe 72r' storD serrer, together with other pubJ.ic roaawiy.ld utility inprovenents, viIl 6e instaiieisinultaneously with- the construction of tt. U"iiai"lr;-
- _!h.^ exir.ti-ng catch basin adjacent to trlanhole #21 inMarket Boulevard should be relocated into the new cuiUradius ;
- project approval by the Watershed District is requiredprior to building peruit issuancei and
- an erosion control plan acceptable to the city should besubnitted prior to requesting builcling perni€s.
Provide final roadway .and utility plans for approval Theexisting, :.orr pvc sanitary sewei lhall be piicea in -in
oversized ductile l.orl casing acceptable €o the City.Existing waterroains to be abandoned sirall be removed. tireapplicant wl1I subnit detailed construction plans ;;dspecifications for approval by th9 city Engineer a'nd pr"rria"as-bui1t nylar plans upon completion of thi construction.
Provide written and graphlc sign covenants consistent with thedescription in the .o-ctober 23, 1989, staff report. ft.covenants ,i1r be fired with the pranned unit beveropn-ni
15.
lilarket Squaresite Plan Amendment
October 8, 1990
Paqe 7
16.
Agreenent.
Review (OR RSVISE??) the site
ornanental fixtures east of the
trro llarket Boulevard curb cuts.
lighting pJ.an to use the
supernarket and between the
17.
18.
1,9.
city council ninutes dated october 23, 1989.original staff report for llarket square.
Amended site plan.
AII conditions Dust be conpleted as a part of the general-
construction of the project and shalL not be Left to tenants,i.e. rear outdoor storage areas, etc.
The bus shelter and concrete curb located on }larket Boulevard
should be changed/noved to another location in order to
accomnodate future traffic on llarket Boulevard. The
developer, at itis expense, strall acquire and convey to the
city a perpetual easenent for a bus shelter along Market
Boulevard. The location of the bus shelter sha1l be
determined by the staff of the southwest Uetro Transit
Commiss ion.
The developer Ehal1 construct and dedicate trails/sidewalks
along west 78th street and Market Boulevard in accordance with
plans and specifications approved by the City Engineer. The
trail s,/sidewalks shall be constructed when street inprovernents
are constructed. rr
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2
3
ATTACHMENTS
3
CITY OF
EHINH[SSEN
tI{EllIORANDUM
TO: Don Ashrrorth, City Minager
FROU: PauI Ktausb, Director of Planniirg
DATE: October 18, 1989
SUBJ: Rezoning to PUD 189-2 Development Stage Approval,Preliminary Plat fo! Uarket Square
PROPOSAL/SUMMARY
The revised plan aildresses anal responds to these concerns byrelocating the Vet Clinic to the northwest corner of the sitecreating a new free staniling building to house a dry cleaner.Both builalings have frontage along West 78th anil will help toprovide consistency with other development along the street.
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX I47 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
4 rez:;>'
lll / t. ';\
The City Council last revieweil this item on September LI, 1989
when it. was submitteil for concept review. The Planning
Commission revieweil plans for the PUD Development Stage on
September 20, 7989. Staff supported the proposal and had recom-
mended approval subject to a number of conditions antl modifica-tions. The Planning Commisssion discussed the plan extensivelyanil ultimately recomrnendled approval with several revised con-ditions. Since that time the plans were extensively revised torespond to the issues that were raiseil. Many of the revisions
were minor plan details but the most significant changes were toarchitectural design, building place'ment and access a1on9 West78th Street. The Planning Commisssion hail raiseil concernsregarding the projects lack of consistency rrith the balance ofthe CBD rrith regard to building placement anil guestioned the lackof compatible architectural design on the northern end of thesite. The project vras focuseal internally rathe! then having anorientation along West 78th Street. At the same tine staff
wanted to restrict Outlot A to use of existing curb cuts to pro-vide adequate levels of traffic safety on surrounding stleets.
and
The
The applicants are requesting approval to construct a 94,I58square foot shopping center at the intersection of west 78thStreet and Market Boulevard. The Center would be anchoreCl by aSuper value supermarket. The PUD contains a two acre outlot thatwould ultimately contain additional development that is plannedin a manner consistent with the balance of the pUD.
West 78th Street curb cut is adjacent to Outlot A and providesimproved access and internal circulation. As a result of thesechanges the size of the center has decreased slightly to 94r15gsquare feet but the size of the supermarket has been increased to20,000 sguare feet with an 8,000 square foot expansion area.
Staff is satisfieal that the current plan isacceptable subject to appropriate conditionsbalance of the report.
The Preliminary Plat i
account for the final
mending that the City
can be reviewed at an
well designed anil isdetailed in the
The project is being reviewetl as a PUD which offers the developera relaxation of normal development standards in exchange for ahigher quality p1an. Staff supports the use of the pUD notingthat normaL ordinance requirements are aften inadeguate indealing with large, multi-tenant projects such as this. We notethat the plan takes advantage of the relaxation of normaldistrict standards in several areas incluiling harit surfacecoverage, parking and setbacks. The current plan offers much inexchange including higher quality architectural design,landscaping and signage. It alsq provides for consistent andwell planneil deveLopment of trdo free-standing buildings anilultimately of Outlot A. The pUD plan also offers the City addi-tional control over the site since it is applied as a zoningdistrict and any significant change requires that the CityCouncil approve a rezoning.
BaseC upon the foregoing Staff isgiven Development Stage Approvalconilitions.
recommencling that the PUD besubject to appropriate
s in the process of being revisetl tosite plan. Consequently, staff is recom-Council table acting on the plat until it
upcoming meeting.
APPL]CABLE REGULATIONS
Section 20-518 defines the development stage of a pUD. pollowinggeneral concept approval of a pUD the applicant shall submit thedevelopment stage application, prelirninary plat and fee. Thedevelopment stage shall include but be limiLed to preliminaryp1at, site plan information including location, ty-pe and size ofall graphics and signage and any additional inforirition reguesteirby staff, Planning Commission of City Council.
BACKGROUND
On August 2, L989, the planning Corunission reviewed the pUD con-cept plan for the Uarket Square commercial shopping center(Attachment #1). The planning Commission agreLd tf,at the siteshould be developed as a pUD and that the concept plans r^rere
Rezoning for Market Square
October 18, 1989
Page 2
Rezoning for Market Square
October 18, 1989
Page 3
moving in the right directiQn but that more amenities needeil to
be provided to the site such as additional architectural design,
landscaping, etc.
The City Council reviewed the concept plan on August 28, 1989(Attachment *2). The City Council also agreed that the PUD was
the proper way to review the site. Since the August 28, L989,
Council meeting, the applicant presented a revised set of plansfor staff revier* to proceed with the development stage (plans
dateil August 17, L989). 'Staff had sev'eral concerns with therevised plans and met with the applicant to review the issues(Attachment #3). The applicant has submitteal another revised setof plans dated Septenber 11, 1989. Although there are still someissues unresolved, the plans are complete enough to proceed withthe development s tage.
The Planning Commission revieweil the PUD for Development Stageapproval on October 9, 1989 (minutes attached). Staff had recom-
mendeil approval subject to 25 contlitions. The Conmission indi-cated some initial concern over the number of stipulations.Staff stated that the number of stipulations ilid not reflect fun-
damental problems with the proposal but iuere rathe! indicative ofits complexity and handling as a PUD.
The most significant conditions includeil:
limitations on additional access to Outlot A.
rejection of a drive-up window at the north enil ofthe building due to traffic safety conflicts.
clarification that the developer is responsible forthe cost of installation of a 72 inch storm set er over the
south edge of the site and inproved screening and
lantlscaping around the rear of the building.
The Commission discussed the proposal in great detail. They
generally agreed at staffrs recommenalations but ailded several
modifications and new contlitions includings
1. The design and materials used on any structures on Outlot Awill be compatible with the shopping center building and the
veterinary cl inic.
2. The development contract will require financiatr sureties and
construction plans to be approved by the City Engineel anil
City council for all public improvements.
3. The developer shal1 proviile the atldlitional width for the
entrance lanes off of uarket Boulevard as requireal by staff.
6
Rezoning for Market Square
October 18, 1989
Page 4
Outlot A, untilkind of a ground
appearance.
it is developed, should be planted in some
cover and maintained so that it has a good
Revised ar--hitectural plans shalL be submitted to reflect
the design that was shown at the Planning Commission meeting
tonight should be submitted to the City.
To respond to these concerns the Vet Clinic has been relocatedthe northrrest corner of the site. In addition to the size of
main building was reduced and a seconil free standing structure
has been proposed along lilest 78th. This will be occupied by adry cleaner and contain a covered, drive-up,/ilrop-of f area. Th
7. The retaiL store on the northwest end of the center shall be
architecturalty designed to have three fronts.
The Planning Commission also proposed allowing an additional
monument sign for Outlot A, and asked the Engineering Department
to assess eiactly when the 72 fooE storm sewer must be installed
and to equip the ouilot t{ith a skimmer device. In addition,
rehile they understood staffrs concerns regarding the proposeil
drive-up window they were willing to allow the developer to make
his case through a formal site PIan submittal.
GENERAL SITE P LAN,/ARCH I TECTURE
The site plan and architectural design have undergone extensive
changes ai a result of reviews by staff and the Planning
Commission. Size of the center anal accessory buildings has been
decreased s1ightly, fron 99,415 square feet to 94,158 sguare feet
including future expansions of the super market (8,000 square
feet) and drug store 12,500 sguare feet). At the same time the
initial size of the suPer market has grown frour 16r000 to 20r000
square feet.
The most significant revision of the site plan occurs at the
norther exposure along Wes! 78th Street. The Planning Commission
hail raised concerns regartling views of the site fron west 78th.
The concern vras that the site plan turned away from the streetfor an inward focus that ilid not fit well into the balance of the
CBD's streetscape. The lack of architectural detailing on the
north elevation was also questioned. At the same tirne, staff
raised' significant concerns with the future access to Outlot A.
We believed that the outlot should be accesseil internally andthat ailditional access points on west 78th or Market would be
hazardous.
to
the
4
5
No regular display or sale of merchanilise outside will be
permi tted .
Rezoning for Market Square
October 18, 1989
Page 5
two buildings $rou1d becone a part of the CBDrs streetscape sincet.heir visual orientation is toward the street even through theare accessed internally. Sidewalks are incorporated to invitepedestrians to enter from West 78th.
The north end of the main shopping center buililing will become athree sided space with windows facing north, east and west. ftis designed to be occupied by a restiurant or frozen yogurtstand. This avoids the visually "deailn eLevations of-tie origi-nal plan. Staff raised concerns with a drive-up window that wasitlustrated on the origi'nal p1an. It is not now shown althoughthe. applicants have indicated their desire to keep open theoption to have one. staff cannot support the reqiesi since we donot believe it can be accommodated siiely. Turning movements andstacking areas related to the window would cause a traffic hazardand contri.bute to confused access and parking provisions. ThePranning commission recornmendeil that any drive- through be subjectto the. site plan approval. Staff is nol opposed to i.tris a1th5ughwe doubt that ne urould ever be able to rec6irmend its approval. -
The west 78th street entrance has been realigned slightly to theeast. ft now offers improved access into Ouilot A a;d a;tua11yprovi.des for a cleaner traffic flow through the site.
we believe that the proposeil revisions have accommodateil staff'sconcerns in this area. A draft of the revised concept loas alsoinformally shoqrn to the planning Commission and. they ,.r. ,.."p-tive to the concept.
Architectural plans have benefitted from continued ref inernent.Detailing has been revised since the city councir last revieweilteh plan with additional irnprovements in-orporated since thePlanning commission hearing. The main building now incolporateshighly detailed gable sections over major entrances. Thesegables are used to provide detailing to break up the rqof 1ineand to conceaL HVAC equipment. The balance ot itre ITVAC equipmentis buried behind a 3 foot high parapet. SmalLer and lessdetailed gable sections are iouna on the rear of the building tohelp improve off-site views. Staff had hoped that the gablescould be connected to avoid creating false- fronts similir to amovie set. Iloi'rever, the architect does not believe this isfeasible. Instead, the front gables will be 24i deep while therear will be 12r deep. Neir elevations have been prepared for thebuilding. After reviewing them ere are satisfied ttral ttrebuilding offers a high degree of architectural ilesign. Theseare large enough to be architecturally significant but the largegap betr4,een the gables wiIl be visible from some elevations(refer to attached illustrations). Exterior materials includerock faced block base with single score block wa1Is. Wooi1 sidingwill be used above the snaller tenant spaces with stucco useal onthe gable sections. the rear of the building will utilize rockfaced block and single score block with addiaional rock faceddetai led -
The vet CIinic remains architecturally identical to the original
proposal with a rock faced bfock bdse and brick walls. Details
are not provided on the northern and irestern elevations. We t{ant
to confirm that they will be built of similar materials. We also
believe it is important to have winilows along West 78th Street
and along Monterey Drive since blank walls are not consistent
with the CBDrs streetscape.
The ne$, free standing cleaners building is an attractive struc-
ture that utilizes a rock faced block base with wood sicling wa1ls
and a standing seam metal roof. Architectural detailing promotes
a visual idenaification with the main shopping center buililing.
No details are provided for builclings on Outlot A at this time
although it is a part of the PUD. Staff expects to use the.PUD
designition to insure that when a buililing is proposed, it is
architecturally compatible with the shopping center. An
appropriate stipulation is provided.
Staff had requested additional trash enclosures to facilitate
ease of usage. The plan has been revised accordingly. In.our
experience wood trash enclosures are often ilifficult to maintain
anb rapidly require repair. we are recommending that they-be
made oit oi roCk faced block to be similar to the main buildings
on the site. In additional the trash enclosure that serves the
cleaners is inappropriately located in a highly visible area near
the west 78th Stieet entrance. It shoul'il be relocatedl to the
r4,est side of the building or preferrably be contained within the
structure.
As requested by staff, the outdoor storage areas located at the
rear of the main building are to be built of rock faced block.
we are also requesting that the trash comPactor for the supe!
market be provided wiih a rock faceil block screen wall of suf-
ficient si?e to eliminate all views of the compactor- In adali-
tion the entire compactor and screen wal1 shoulil be shifteil to
the north to provide the reguiredl 24 foot wide drive and to a1lowfor trl,o way t raff i c.
Rezoning for Market Sguare
October 18, 1989
Page 6
ACCES S,/PARK I NG/I NTERNAL C I RCULATI ON
As we noted earlier access provisions have been revised flon theoriginal City Council presentation with the most significantrevisions occurring with the relocation of the west 78th Street
curb cut.. A aleceleration lane and right turn lane from West 79thstreet to Market Boulevartl that were requested by staff have also
been incorporateCl. Staff has also requested that a triangulartraffic islanil be installed in the curb cut so that trafficexiting the site is oriented in the correct easterly direction.
The north entrance from !,tarket Boulevaril has a single lane inwith two exiting. We believe that this will probably work in the
Rezoning for Market Sguare
October 1E, 1989
Page 7
short run but when Outlot A is developed a second entrance lanewill probably be required. Access to Outlot A has been the sub-ject of a good deal of discussion. Staff believes that addi-tional access points woulil represent a traffic hazard on adjacentstreets and shoulil be prohibiteil. With the realignment of the
West 78th Street curb cut, Outlot A has direct frontage on the
two main site entrances and can be served very adequately frominternal drives. A stipulation prohibiting additional accesspoints has been proviiled.
Pedestrian ciiculation has been revised in accordance nithstaff's recommend.at ions with sidewalks extended arounil the entireWest 78th Street and Market Bouldevard frontages and. with connec-tions to internal walkways. The Engineering Department has re-evaluated the Market Boulevard sidewalk issues and now believesthat the sidewalk should terminate at the crosswalk over theparking lot that connects into the sidewalk in front of the supermarket. A painteil and signed pedestrian crosswalk should beiDstalled. The goal is to bring the sidewalk over to the eastside of the street to reguire only one pedestrian crossing of therailroad tracks. The development contract should clearly statethat construction of the siilewalks and crosswatk is the developerrsresponsibility. In the long term, the Engineering Departmentbelieves that a pedestrian activateil flashing signal may berequired to maintain safety.
Internal circulation has been improveil. The south drive aisle atthe rear of the building has been widened anil adeguate truckturning areas are now illustratetl. The realignment of West ?8thcurb cut improves internal circulation by straightening a naindrive aj.sle. Circulation patterns at the north end of the siteare a little confusing due to merging traffic. Staff has workedlrith the applicant to redesign parking 1ot islanils to betterdirect flow and to incorporate stop signs as neeiletl. Each siteexit is also requipped with a stop sign.
Due largely to the redesign of the riorthern end of the site,there are now fewer parking sta1Is being proposed then would nor-
ma1ly be required by typical orilinance standarals. The code nor-
ma1ly reguires one sta11 for every 200 square feet of gross floor
area in a shopping ecenter resulting in a need fot 47J- stalls
when both expansion areas are included. The present plan wiIlultimately provide only 454 stalls.
The PUD orclinance al1ows the city to create standards suitablefor the individual project, thus no variance is reguired. Thereal issue is not one of code conpliance but rather of satisfyingactual demand. Staff has ilone extensive research into shoppingcenter parking demands and found that a ratio of 4.5 stalls per
1000 square feet of gross floor area is adequate to accommotlatecenters of this size. Uniler this guideline, a requirement for
424 stalls results which is in keeping with the 471 stalls thatwill be provided.
Rezoning for lrlarket Square
October 18, 1989
Page 8
However, we a!e concerned with
regards to parking for seveial
aspects of the center with
as follows:
several
reasons
grocery stores can generate unusually high parking demanil.
if restaurants occupy signficant areas of the buililing,
parking reguirements could also jump, and
there are two areas where the parking provisions should be
revised in a way that will unfort,unately eliminate severalstalls. The parking area serving the vet Clinic is a deail
end aisle that requires provision of a turn a!.ound areathat will eliminate two stalls. uost of the 13 stalls that
are illustrateal on the east side of the future grocery expan-
sion are hazardous. Cars backing out of thern will back intodrive aisles that have several turns and poor sight 1ines.
while staff believes that parking provisions could be made to be
adequate, we feel that several contlitions are required to provide
adequate assurances. These incLude:
1. All leases should require employee parking to be located atthe rear of the building.
Site plan review should be required for any restaurants pro-
poseil to be located in the center. A parking analysis will
be required before approval can be required. The 2r284
square foot restaurant space located at the north end of the
center is excluiled from this requirement.
Parking calculations do not include reguirements for Outlot iAr
sj.nce no uses have been proposed. It is expected that parkingprovisions for Outlot A will be consistent with ordinance
reguirements whenever a site plan approval is requested. For the
center to function properly, cross access and parking easements
should be filed over the shopping center parcel and Outlot Arunning in favor of each 1ot.
LANDS CAP I NG
The landscaping plan has been revisedl extensively to comply withprevious recommendations and is generally acceptable. Staff hasonly two modifications we would like to see incorporatetl.
1. A continuing concern throughout the design process has beenthe rear view of the center from Hwy. 5. The lear elevationqhave been improveil but we remain c'cncerned with the 1eve1 ofscreening provided to avoid direct views of loaiting docks,truck parking and trash stolage areas. While the lantlscapingplan has been improved in this area, ee believe that theinstallation of 6 foot high conifers in this area is inaile-quate. we are recommeniling that the height at installation
should be 10-12 feet.
2
Rezoning for Market Square
October 18, 1989
Page 9
2 A snow storage area is illustratedthe site along Market Boulevard.inappropriate considering that thewould have upon entering the cityThe designation should be ileletedcompatible landscape material.
at the southeast corner ofIle believe this isfirst view many peopleis a pile of dirty snow.
and the area filLed with
Unlike most metro area conmunities, Chanhassen does not now havea requirement for financial guarantees for landscaping improve-ments. staff has raised .this concern .to the plann ing - comiriss ionwho indicated a deiire to have the ordinance amended to coverthis omission. Staff is recommending that the pUD agreementinclude a reguirement that a financiil guarantee be .irovided toinsure that landscaping is properly ins[.a1red in a timely .inn.r.The guarantee should eguat ltOi of the estimated cost of'thematerial and be valid for one fult growing season past the dateof installation.
The site will drain. into a storm sewer system that outlets into
3 city owned pond located to the south. The 72" storm sewer willbe installed by the developer and the development contract shouldclearly state this requirement. The pond wai designed to performas a retention pontl for the downtown irea. Thus a skimmer'deviceas requested by the City Council is not required. Drainage calcu_lations have- been provided and are currentiy being revie*Ea uy tt"ci!y's consultanr. The existing catch basii adja6ent a; ninnore#21 in Market Boulevarcr should be rerocatea int6 ttre new cuiuradius. Project approval by the Rirey creek watershed District isrequired.
G RAD I NG,/DRAI NAGE
Prior to issuance of anycontrol plan acceptablesha1l be prepared.
builcling permits, a detai 1edto the city and the Watershed
eros i on
Di strict
UT]LITIES
The existin
an overs i zefeet beyond$rith manholaccess. Th
i n the iluct
Final utility plans shoulil be prepared for approval by theThe sanitary sewer plan requires that an exiiLing lOi-1inebisects the site be located under the new buildiig. Staffsupport the proposal only if it is constructed as follows:
g J.0 inch PVC sanitary sewer shaIl be placed ind ductile iron casing which clearly extends IOthe Limits of any building footings or siaterralkes built at each end of the casing to providee sewer main must be properly blockeil and encasedile iron casing, i.e., grouted or pea rock.
city.
tha t
wi 11
Water plans are generally acceptable with some rnodifications.The existing wat.ermain to be abandoned should be removed from the
Rezoning for Market Square
October I8, 1989
Page I0
site. Since the existing public utilities are proposed to be relo-
cated and turn lanes constructed, the applicant shall submit
detailed roadway and utility construction plans and specifications
for approval by the City
should comply with the C
built mylar plans will a
construction.
S IGNAGE,/LIGHTING
er. Roaalway utility specif ications
chanhassen's specifications. As-
required upon completion of the
Engineity of
1so be
As with other aspects of'the proposal, signage has been modified
from the original plan. The current plan ca11s for a total of 3
monument signs. One on West 78th, one on ltlarket Boulevard and,
based upon ilanning Commission recommendation, a third monument
will be reserved for Outlot A. Although no details are provideil
for the Outlot A sign, it should be iilentical to the others. The
monuments are 14' tall with 4I squale feet of sign area per face.
The signs are attractively designed to reflect the architectural
design of the shopprng center.
All other site signage is to be located on the buildings. Front
elevation signs use 2 foot high lighted letters with sinilar
signage in the rear elevations anil both ends of the buildling.
St;ff-has discussed allowing larger signage of similar tlesign for
major shopping center tenants. We betieve it is reasonable to alo
so and are- recommending that letters up to 5 feet in height be
allowed on these stores having gab1ed entrances and rear eleva-
tions. These stores shoulil have their sign boards restricteal to
the gable areas with signs on other elevations prohibited. - No
details are provideil for the free standing vet Clinic and dry
cleaner buildings but they should be restricted to 2 foot high
lighted signs on the north and south elevations. Super Value has
seiarate sign provisions in recognition of their being the major
tenant.
The ordinance does not provide standarils for PUD signage as such,
however, it allotrs the city to establish suitable requirements.
We believe the illustrated site plan is acceptable with the nodi-fications proposed above and are lecommencling that they be prepareil
as sign covenants that will be attached to the PUD agreement.
Lighting details were recently provided for staff review and area
acceptable with some modifications. staffrs original intent rrasto have the lighting be as compatible as possible with other CBDlighting. Two types of fixtures are proposed. The first is a 17foot high ornamental type offering an antique appearance. ?he
second is a 321 foot high box fixture designeil tso light largeareas. It is our desire to have lighting,on the project's
exterior use the lower sca1e, more compatible fixture. Thus we
are recomrnending that the 3 fixtures located east of the super
market and one located between the two Market Boulevard curb cuts
be exchangeil for the ornanental 1ights. We believe that the
reviseil overall li9htin9 scheme will provide adequate coverage.
Rezoning for llarket iquare
October 18, 1989
Page 11
SUBDIVI S ION,/EASEMENTS,/RIGHT-OF-WAY VACATION
The applicants are requesting subilivision approval and vacationof excess right-of-way along lilest 78th Street antl the Planning
Commission recommendeil approval of the preliminary plat.
However, the plat is being revised to comply with previousstipulations and anil is not available for eview at this tine.Staff expects to bring the revised plat to the City Council at an
upcoming meeting.
The plat will illustrate the following:
I
STAPF RECOMMENDATION
Staff recommends that PUD Development Stage approval for Market
Sguare be approved subject to teh following conditions:
Enter into a PUD contact hrith the city that will contain allof the conditions of approval and which will be recordedagainst a1l lots platted in the project. The PUD agreement
should provide for a landscape bond as outlined in the staffreport.
Obtain final plat approval for the site prior to requestingbuilding permits.
2
3 Enter into a ilevelopment contract with thefinancial sureties with construction plans
the City Engineer and City Council for alL
ments -
city that reguiresto be approveal bypublic improve-
4 Revise architectural plans as need to:
- confirm that the vet Clinic will have windows on the north
and west elevations i- trash enclosures are to be constructed from rock faced
block compatible with the main building;
- relocate the trash enclosure serving the dry cleaner to the
r.rest side of the building or incorporate it into the struc-
ture i- outaloor storage areas are to be encloseil by a rock faced
block walI;
- the trash compactor is to be provided wi.th a rock facetl
block screen wal1 and relocated to the north to provide a24' wide drive aisle; and
- West 78th Street vacation of excess right-of-ray. The citywi1l. seek to maintain an 80 foot wide right-of-way.
- Easements for:opublic utilities and drainage improvements
"public s idewalksocross access and parking for all lots, and
- Division of the site to separate lots and Outlot A.
Rezoning for uarket Square
October I8, 1989
Page 12
- the aildition of any drive-up windows will require site plan
approval wherein it will be the applicant's responsibility
to-demonstrate that internal 'circulation Patterns and
parking provisions will not be imPacted.
5. Outlot A is required to have buildings designed to utilize
architecture compatible h'ith the shopPing center' No-ailtli-
tional access wiit Ue provideil to serve outlot A' only one
additional monument sign is to be alloweil shen the outlot is
developed. The sign mist be identical to monument signage
allowed eLsewhere on the PUD. Until development occurs, the
owner shall establish ground cover over the site and keep it
in a maintained condition. Parking requirenents for the
outlot should be satisfied on it.
6. Modify and or regulate access and parking as follows:. -_ p.ovid. a triaigular traffic island in the west 78th street
curb cut i_ delete ti:e s.idewalk south of the crosswalk that connects to
the sialewalk in front of the super market' A pedestrian
,crosswalk shall be installeal on l{arket Boulevaril aila jacent
to the bus shelter. The crosswalk shall be Painteil. anil
signed in accordance with the requirements of Minnesota
Manual on Traffic Controls i
-eliminatethegnorthernstallslocatedontheeastsideofih. =rp"t market expansion and modify the vet Clinic-
parking area to provide a turning sPace at the enil of the
aislei- all leases fo! the main building should require that
".pf"y"" parking be locatecl at the rear of the center; anil
- any rlstaurants - proposed in the center are subject to-a
sii" pf un review- pr-oceilure. rt ldi1l be the applicantr s
respoirsibility to demonstrate parking adeguacy-if it. is to
be ipproved. The restaurant spaces illustrateCl in the two
northern tenant sPaces in the main buililing are exempt from
this requirementi and
- all parliing lot curbing sha1l be B-5/L2 concrete.
7
8
The landscaping plan should be moilif ied as follows:
- increase the size of conifers along the south Propertyfron 6r to 10-12'i andl
- remove the snold storage area along Malket Boulevard and
landscape the sPace.
Proviile final grading and drainage plans for approval. The
plans should incorporate the following:-- the ?2n storm seirer is to be installed by the developer;'
Installation of the line shoultl be covered by the ilevelop-
ment contract. The city can reasonably allow building per-
mits to be issueil with the understantling that the 72' storm
sewer, together with other public roadway anil utility
improvements, will be installed simultaneously with the
construction of the buildings;
l ine
Rezon].ng
October
Page 13
for Market
18, 1989
S quare
9
- the existing catch basin adjacent to l4anhole #21 in Market
Boulevard should be relocated into the new curb radiusi
- project approval by the lvatershed District is requiredprior to builcling permit issuance; and
- an erosion control plan acceptable to the city should be
submitted prior to requesting building permits.
Provide final roadrcay anal utility plans for approval. Theexisting 10n PvC sanitary sewer shal1 be placed in an over-
sized ductile iron casing a'cceptable to the city. Existing
watermains to be abaniloned sha1l be removed. The applicantwill submit detailed construction plans and specifications for
approval by the City Engineer anil provide as-bui1t mylar plans
upon completion of construction.
10. Provide written and graphic sign covenants consistent with
the description in the October 23, 1989, staff report. The
covenants will be filed with the PUD contract.
j
11. Review the site lighting plan to use the ornamental f ixt.ures
east of the super market anil between the two Market
Boulevard curb cuts.
ATTACHIT{ENTS
1. Market Square Plan Package - Sheets P-l - P-C dated October13, 19892. Market Sguare Site Phasing PIan - P-8 dated October 17, 1989.3. Update Market. Sguare Rendering.4. Updateil memo from the Engineering Department dated October 19,
1989.5. Planning Commission minutes dated Septenber 20, 1989.6. Previous staff reports.
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CITY OF
EHINHISSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900
I{EI'lORAN DUIU
TO:
FROU:
DATE:
SUBJ:
Paul Krauss,
Dave Herpel ,
October 18,
Planning Director
Sr. Engineering Technician
1989
Review of Revised Plans for tlarket Sguare
File No. 89-16 Lanal Use Review
Upon review of the reviseil plans for uarket
dated october 13, 1989 prepared by AuCoN, I
comments and recornmenclat ions:
Square alevelopmentoffer the following
1
Site Plan ( Sheet P-l )
The plans propose a right-of-way of approximately 70 feet for
Hest 78th Street and reducing down to approximately 60 feet
at !'lonterey Drive. The City desires to maintain a uniform
80-foot wide right-of-way throughout West 78th Street as pre-
viously preserved in the ilowntown redevelopment project.
The plans shall include a concrete islantl meilian at the
access point to ltlarket Square from west 78th Street as Pre-viously agreed to.
2
5
3. The location of the trash compactor behind the grocery store
Iimit-s the traffic lanes behind the shopping center to 20feet wide. The trash compactor needs to be rnoved towarils thebuilding to give ailequate traffic lanes of 2{ feet.
The plans sha11 include B-5I2 concrete barrier curb con-sistent with City Ordinances.
6
<h4
4.Appropriate traffic signage should be installed on the one-
way streets together with island delineators at the accesspoints to the shopping center.
This site will generate considerable pedestrian traffic to
anil from the site. From a traffic safety standpoint, it isdesirable to install a pedestrian crossing on I'lalket
Boulevard in the area of the bus shelter. The pedestrian
crossing should consist of the typicatr signage and striping.In the future, when traffic voLume dictactes, the City will
need to address installing peCles tr ian-activated flashers atthis location.
I
Paul Krauss
October 18, 1989
Page 2
Civil Plan ( Sheet P-2)
The existing watermain to be abandoned sha1I be removed fromthe site.
2
3
4.
The existing public utilities are proposed to be relocatedand turn lanes constructed. The applicant shall submitsepalate from any buililing p1ans, detailed roadway and uti-lity construction plans and specifications for approval bythe City Engineer. Roadway and utility specificllions shouldcomply with the City of Chanhassen's specifications. As-built mylar plans will for all public utilities shall also beprovided upon completion of the construction.
BRW wiIl be reviewing the stolm sewer calculations submittedto determine adequacy in the system and compatibility withthe downstream ponding facilities.
The existing catch basin adjacent to manhole *21 in uarketBoul,evard should be relocated into the new curb radius at theentrance to IUarket Sguare.
5. The applicant sha11 enter into a development contract iriththe City and provide the City with the necessary financialsureties to guarantee the proper installation oi these publicimprovements. The 72-inch storm sewer, together with rLadwayand utility_improvements, shall be installed simultaneouslywirh the initiation of any buitding constluction on the sife.
Erosion Control
An erosion control plan for the development wasreview. A detailed erosion control plin shouldthe City Engineer for review and appioval.
not included
be submi tted for
to
1. the applicant sha11 receive Watersheal Districtbefore the issuance of any building permits.
c: Gary Ehret, BRWcary warren, City Engineer
app!ova1
CITY OF
CIIINH,[$$EN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
ME}IORANDI.]M
TO:
FRO}I:
DATE:
SUR':
PauI Krauss, Planning Director
Dave Henpel., sr. Engineering Technician /W
July 31, 1991
PUD A$en&0ent, Replat and Site Plan Review for
Americana Bank, Outlot A, lilarket Sguare
File No. 91-11 LUR
Upon review of the site plan Prepared by.IGU Associates daded June
ti-, tgg:- , revised lury 26, rggr, r offer the following comnents and
reconmendations:
TRAFFIC
The site does not pronote a snooth transition for traffic exiting
ifre drive-thru to {et back to the nain thoroughfare. The rarrius is
too tight to accorniodate turning Dovenents for Passenger vehicles.
an additional 15 feet would bJ required to accommodate vehicles
rnaking such a turn.
The plans propose a new curb cut to alIow left turn Dovement from
westiound fresi Zeth Street into this development. A recent traffic
study prepared by the Cityrs traffic engine-ering consultant
repoite-d such a ctrb cut could be acconmodated i however, staff
still tras reservations allowing such an access Point. Staff
reconnends that this new curb cut proposal be deleted to avoid
additional traffic congestion at this intersection- ft is
recornmended that the right-in/right-out only be allowed along
eastbound west 78th street as previously proposed with the llarket
Square plat.
GRADING AND DRATNAGE
No plans or drainage calculations rrtere subrnitted wlth this
subrnlttal . It is recbn'''tended that the appl icant subrnit a grading
and drainage plan nith storro water calculations for a 10 and 100-
year storn event.
Paul KraussJuly 31, 1991
Page 2
UT] LTTIES
Again, no utility plan wassanitary seter and waterrnainapproxirnately 2o0 feet southwater service would have toservice this site.
subnitted for review. Municipalintersect the plat of uarket squlreof this site. Sanitary sewef and.be extenaed fron the trunk mains to
I,TISCELI,ANEOI'S
The_ -sit-e i-ncorporates an 8-foot wide bituninous path along thenortherly lot line of the Eite. A pernanent traiL- easenent overthe proposed bitunrinous trair should be conveyed to the city toinsure maintenance and usage rights for the geieral p"Uii".-
The site plan has been revised incorporating a so-foot wide radiusalong the northeast quarter of the site to accomnodate future turnlanes along west TBth street. Horrever, the p!.at attacrrea -to trresubmittar package has not been revised to acco-mmodate this so-footri.ght-of -r{ay. In addition, the plat has not been revised toincorporate the additi-onal. lo-foot -rigtrt-ot-way trr. city r-.q.,ir".along the south side of west 78th streel to acconnodate videning ofWest 78th Street.
As a part of the downtown devel0pnent, numerous trees and Ehrubsutere. planted .a10ng the southerly bouievard of west 78th streetrri.thrn the cityrs right-o_f-vay. The proposed devel0pnent willrequired renoval and relocation of -thise pfantin!!.- Thislandscaping relocation process wil.l be incorpora€ea into- irre cityi;tlest 78th street Detachnent project.
RECOMMENDED CONDITTONS
2
1. Delete the proposed left turn lane and curb cut on westboundWest 78th street and return the right-ln/right-out only fronthe site.
The parking lot layout should be revised to accommodateturning novements fron the drive-thru te11ers.
The applicant shal1 subait a grading, drainage and utilitypfan for revielr and approval by the City Enginler.
The applicant shatl convey to the City a trail easenent alongthe northerly 10 feet of the site over the bituuinous path. -
3
4.
PauI KraussJuIy 31, 19 91
Page 3
ktm
charles Folch, city Engineer
The final plat of llarket Sguare shouLd be revised toincorporate the additional 10 feet of right-of-way requiredalong the south side of west 78th Street and the so-footradius at the northeast corner of Outlot A.
5
!.{E},lORANDI,M
TO3 Sharnin AI-Jaf?, planner I
FRoM: Todd HoffDan, park and Recreation Coordinator
DATE: JuLy 29, 1991
SURT: Site PLan Review - Americana CoDmunity Bank
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(512) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
CITY OF
EH.[NH[$$EN
4/
On July 23, 1991, the park and Recreation Cornmission reviewed theabove nrentioned pUD anendment/site plan revj.ew. The reportpresented to the Comnission is' attachled for your ,..ri.r. Uponconclusion of discussion that evening, the pirk and Recreat-ioncomrnission acted to recommend the city council accept fuIl park andtrai1dedicationfeesaspartofthiideve1opnent
vtCITY OF
EHAI\IH.TSSEN
PRC DATE:
CC DATE:
EOFFUANSK
7 -23-9t
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PROPOSAL:
I,OCAT ION:
STAFF REPORT
PIrD lleldDeDt, Replrt rDd alte DlaD Rovior - Replat apoltloa of l{artet Squaro PUD aDal ilto plaD Cox t 7 r?losq. ft. bulldiag oD ploperty toDsa DUD aDd located ia tba
Boutbsest colDer of tha fe3t 78tb Street rDal llartet
Boul.evard iltalsection, llericaaa BalI
IDtersectioD of tlest 78th str.st aDd llarket BoulevarA(see LocatioD !ap)
enericana coEEuni ty BaDk
300 !{aia stleet fest
8leepy Eye, t{inDesota
E
IJF
U'
PRESENT ZONING !PUD
AL'ECENT ZONING
AND LAND USE:
CO!{PREIIENSIVE PI..AN :
CO}{PREHENS IVE TRAIL PLIN:
of f ice,/Inalustri!l Dtatrl,ctcenaral BusiDeB! Diatrlct, Central BusLnese Dtstrict
Genaral Eugl.aeeg Dlstrlct
It-8-E.r-
OI,
BG,
CBD
BG,
lhla property llea rlthh th. serirrt co area ofClty cetrter.Ptrk.. tcqul8ltloD of adtdltioDalparklaDA fron thir parcel Le aot reasoaablc ordeslrable.
Tbl.s property lles sltbia the dorrDtorrrbusLness dtistrlct auat, .s La thsteuaiade-r of tbs atot'atoya, pedestriaDvalkrays' are to be lnstalledt. Walkraygare deplctbd oa the proposedl pIaD,however, bltuniDous naterial igspeclfietl. 111 ralkways Ln th€ dlowntorDdlistrlct aro to be constructadt o!
t
L
L
LAPPLICINT:
ADericana Eanl(July 23, 1991
Page 2
RECOTO'{ENDATION:
ATTACEI{ENTs3 -.
1. LocatioD Erp
rt is reconneDdeal that tie park aDd B€cr.atloa counlesioa rcconnend thecity- counclr acc.p! fulr park aDd trail fees !3 Irart of thisdevelopueat. n tlail t€e cr€alt for coDstructl.oa ot raixrays is -lot
dee'ed Decessary as ao creaits bava been glvca la aay licvlour crses ofdevelopneDt i! thc tax lacrcueDt dllrtrictl Buglaegaii locattag rr itiealistrict are to pqy fuU atevelopEeDt faea.
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STRGAR-ROSCOE-FAUSCH, INC.
CONSULTING ENGINEERS
TRANSPORTAT1ON t CryIL ! STRUCTURAL t PARKING T LAND SURVEYORS
SRF No.0911540
MEMORANDUM
TO Paul Krauss, AICP
Plannine Director
City of Chanhassen
Dennis R. Evler, P.E., Principal
Jeffrey R. B,!dnar, Senior Trlffic Specialist
June 5, 1991.
AMERICANA COMMUNITY BANK TRAFFIC STUDY
FROM:
DATE:
SUBJECT:
As vou reouested. we have completed a traffic study and review of the proposed site plan-for the
A;.;[;il Communiry Bank (iee Figure ]). Bas6d on. this review ahd hnalysis, we offer the
following comments arid recomhendations for your consideration:
1. Traffic forecasts used for this analysis are based on the forecasts develop^ed for the City of
Chanhassen Cenrral Business Disirict Traffic Study, dated April 10, 1991, and PrePared
by SRF, Inc. (see Figure 2).
2. Peak oeriod average queues were estimated for the Market Boulevard and West 78th
str..f iniiri..tion'apiroaches based on these traffic forecasts and assuming a -trafficionlrol sisnal would fii installed at the intersection of Market Boulevard and 78th Street.
Irwas ais6 assumed that both West 78th Street and Market Boulevard woqld oPerate as
four lane roadwaYs.
3. The resulrs of this queuing analysis (see Figure 1) indicate.that the ProPosed,site driveway
on lr{arket Boulevdrd wo-utd b; blo;ked o-n a regular basis by queuer developing on the
norrhbound Market Boulevard approach to West 78th Street. To prevent a traffic
ooliuiions ,nA accidenr problem fidm developing at this location, it is recommended that
nb access from Market Boulevard be provided to lhe ProPosed site.
4. The queues developing on the eastbound West 78th Street approach to Market Boulevard
would not, howevei, bjock the access to West 78th Street rihich is west of the proposed
bank site.
5. Since oueuing will not be a problem on West 78th Street at the access serving the west
side of'the bink site, consideration could be given to opening the median on West 78th
Street and providing a westbound left turn lane at that location. This median opening and
turn lane wbuld allo-'w left turns to be made from westbound 78th Sueet into the bank site,
and from the site to westbound 78th Street
Based on these findings, it is recommended thal the City and developer. consider
reorienting the site to elm'phasize the access on West 78th Stieet at the weat side of the
srte.
6.
Suite 150, One Cartson Parkway North, Minneapolis, Minnesota 554J7
612/475-0010 FAX 6121175-2429
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CIry OF CHANHASSEN
PROPOSED SITE PLAN
SRF NO. (rrrsrm AMERICANA COMMUNITY BANK TRAFFIC STUDY
FIGURE
1
W. 78TH STREET
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PROJECT STATEIIENT
July 28, l99l
RE: Anericana Conmuni ty Bankllest 78th & llark:t Boul tverd
Ctanhassen , l.li nneaota
The Site for thG Aaeri cena Co.lruni ty Brnk lr I octtrd .t the'Northeagt Corner of thc proposed llark:t Equerr Stropping CentcrDevelopoent. The .rchitectur! o+ thc Brnk building rcflrctrthe shopping center'B uBG o, 3turcot acc:nt tiles, columr,.nd gabled entries. Lor g.bled roofs and . 3trong raronry b.3ecomplete the Bank'r ir.gG for the prooin.nt corner ritt. In-tegrated signage, generou! l.ndicapr.ng rnd a crnrr p1.2. vlBu.tlyand functionally integrete the bank yri th the Ctranhasren Comunl ty.The site access fror thc He3t lrt3 tr.{+ic flol direetly intothe drive thru I ancE rithout unneEGrt.ry turnlng ud any potentirlstaEkup is handled on sltr. The cooaron 3harcd road on th: 6q-rthof the site provides .cceB5 to the tst to the Bor.rth end ud.llors the drivc thru traffic .n exlt. The building h.r barndesigned to accoooodatc the necds o+ thr B.nk todrys end tnthe future through the propoied rddltiqr.
LONG LAKE, MINNESOTA 55356 6't2t473.1208P O BOX 635
CITY OF
EH,[NH,{ESEN
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
I,IEMORANDIn{
To: PlannlnE Conmlssion
FROU: Xathy Aanenson, planner rI
DATE: July 31, 1991
SuBf: Landscaping Ordinance
On June 5, 1991 the pLanning Con:nission held a hrblic Hearing toamend the sections of the zoning and subdivisl;n --oiai.rurr""
regard.ing- landscaping and Tree prese*ation nequi.ernlnts. -piisuant
to this Hearing staff has addressed trre co'nmenis -i"i
iiipo=.achanges. The reconmended changes to the ordinance t uar" l-aan n"aaare shown in the attached ordiiance. edditions .;":;h;;-I. uo1aand underlined, deletions are shown rith ii""=-tt,i"";;-ii.-"
In Sunmary the rnajor changes include:
1. spacing of trees along open area of a site rocated adiacentto public right-of-way is now 30 feet i"=i".a-oi-ao-f3!t.
2. The type of naterial acceptabre for screen fences for outdoorstorage areas, has been changed to exclude irood.
3. Trees in the public right-of-rray shal1 be trimmed or removealto prevent blocking and diseaseld or danaged trees -strit-i
uerernoved only if they can not be Eaved.
4- rn the subdivisi-on ordinance, 3 trees wirl be required witheach. byilding lot, 2 deciduous and f ..r.rqra"rr-.-- TheCornnission stated a preference for having a"""i;p"i= choosefrom two lists of trees. one list wouid be t6. a..ia,ro,r=trees and one for. evergreen trees. Because the cily iscurrently working with the DNR to do a tree stuay ina ,iff b.receiving species recommendations fron the study.' siiri r""rareconmend defer .Iisting any specific species'"t tfrl, iir.until the study is conpletei.
A few otherfollo!, up on.
issues were raised during the hearing for staff toThese issues incl.uded:
tf>t,PRINTEO ON REC\CLED PAPER
Landscape ordinanceJuIy 31, 1991
Page 2
1. Staff was asked to ta1k to the City Attorney regarding thecity's ability to regulate the polrer conpanyis authority toclear cut on utility easenents.
The city Attorney has stated the City has the ability to pass
an ordinance regulating the power conpanyrs ability to coroe in
and clear cut even in an easenent area.
2. A question 'uas taised regarding the relation of the
cornprehensive P1an, buffer requirernents and the proposed
ordinanee.
In the Land Use Element of the Goals and Policies section of
the Comprehensive PIan the following goals and policies state:
coAL: Achieve a nixture of developrnent which will assure a
high quality of life and reliable tax base.
PoLIcY: The city will seek opportunities to provide transition
between uses of different t)rpes, the Eore inconpatible
the neighboring uses, the nore important the transitionzone. for example, natural features rnay provide good
transitions betrreen incompatible uses or uses of
noderate intensity and can provide transitions betueen
high intensity and low intensity uses. The Land Use Plan
also seeks the establishnent of buffer yards whereappropriate. These buffer yards represent areas of
increased setbacks hthere a developer will be reguired to
install landscaping and beming to offer inproved
separation of inconpatible uses.
3. There rras some discussion as to the width of streets and theireffect the width has on the ability to get a canoPy fron the
streetscape.
we also note that pavenent width required by suburban
communities varies widely and chanhassents requlrenents appearto be at the high end of the range. Street rridth has a dlrect
and often adverse impact on environmental protection. If the
Planning conmission nishes to have this Datter investigatedfurther, we wouLd recornrnend you ask the city Engineer to
investigate the matter and report back to you.
RECOMMENDATION
Staff recomrnends the Planning Comrnission adopt the following
motion:
ItThe Planning commission reconnends approval of the Landscape
Ordinance as shown in Attachnent #1.rr
LandscapeJuIy 31,
Page 3
ordinance
19 91
ATTACI{MENTS
1. Proposed Landscape Ordinance.
Article XXv, Landscaping and Tree Renoval .
DIVISION 1. GENERALLY
Section 2o-LL76. Intent, scope and conpl iance.
(a) The intent of this article is to iroprove the appearanceof vehicular use areas and property abutting public rights-of-Iray,to require buffering between non-conpatible land usesi and toprotect, preserve and pronote the aesthetic appeal, character and
value of the surrounding neighborhoods; to pronote public health
and safety through the reduction of noise pollution, air pollution,.
visuaL pollution and g1are.
(b) This article does not apply to single fanily detached
residences in the Al / A2 /Fe/P.sF Districts which are regulated by
landscaping requirenents contained with the Subdivision ordinance.
(c) No new site developrnent, building, structure or vehicuLar
use area is allowed, unless landscaping is provided as required in
this article.
(d) No property lines shall be altered nor shall any
building, structure or vehicular use area be expanded, ultless the
minimurn landscaping required by the provisions of this article is
provided for the entire proPerty.
(e) The landscaping standards shaLl provide for screening for
visual. irnpacts associated with a given use, including but not
linited to:
o truck loading areas io trash storage io parking 1ots, interior lot areas and perineters io Large unadorned building nassing;o garalre doors associated with auto oriented uses; ando vehicular stacking areas for drive through uses
(f) Buffering shall be provided betrreen high intensity and
1ow intensity uses and between a site and rnaj or streets and
highways and in areas where buffering is required by the
Comprehensive Plan.
(S) Boulevard and streetscape pl.anting shall be pursued by
the city.
(h) Mature stands of trees shall be preserved.
(i) Reforestation shall be pursued as appropriate.
Section 2O-LL77. Plan Subnission and appioval .
1
- The property owner -or developer shall prepare a landscape plandrawn by a registered landscape architec€ oi other profeisi6natacceptable to the city for - review .by the city. The city shallapply the following conditions in approval oi disapproving theplan:
(1) The contents of the pLan shalL include the following:
a. plot plan, drar,rn to an easily readable scale,showing and labelling by nane and.dinensions, al1existing and proposed property linesr. easeuents,buildings, and other. ltructuies, vehicular useareas (including parkiirg stalls, aiiveways, Ervlceareas, !{uge footage), water outlets and landscapenaterial,. (inclrrrring botanical nane and connon name,installation size, on center planting air""si"niwhere appJ.icable, and quantities for- all plantsused) .
b. Typical -elevations and/ or cross sections as nay bereqr.ired.
c. Title block with the pertinent nanes and addressed(property ouner, person drawing p1an, and personinstalling landscipe naterial) ,- siar"' aiie,'nortrrarrorr - (generally orient plan so that north is totop of plan), and zoning aistrict.
d Existing landscape naterial shal1required plan and any nateriatcondition. may be used to satisfylrhole or in part.
be shown on thein satisfactorythis article in
.(2) . where land:caping is required, no building pernit shallbe issued until the reguiied landscaping p1i;-;;; -;;;;
subnitted and.approved, and no certificaie of 6"."p.""y =tiiibe issued untir the randscaping is cornpreted as cErtiiied bvan on-site inspection by tle Luilding inspector-,--u-n-I-e1-s- iiirrevocabr.e letter of crldir from a uinxinj 1"=1it"il"il-rrl'"been subnitted.
ISI When. screening, .lan.r.scaping or other sinilar inprovementsto property are requ5.red by this ordinance, a lettei ot creaiishalL be supplied by the owner in an anount equal to at ieis[one -hundred ten (110) percent of the value of .s""t,
="i"""i"g,landscaping or other inprovenents. ttre secuiitt-;Ga-';;satisfactory to the- city and shal1 be conaiiitnea -
"p.nrej.mbursement of all expenses lncurred by the ciiv l"iengineering, 1egal or othel fees in connectlo'n ;ith ;ii"q-;;completing such lrnprovements. The. guarantee shali l" pi"Jia.aprior to the issuance of any uuiiaing permit ""a JnEi-u.valid for a period of tine -equal to-oie (1) i"if- gi""ing
2
season after the date of instalLation of the landscaping.city nay accept a letter of credit or cash escrow. In
event construction of the project is not cornpleted withintime prescribed by building pernits and other approvals,city nay, at its option, complete the uork required at
expense of the olrner and the surety.
The
the
the
the
the
The city nay allot an extended period of tiroe forcornpletion of all landscaping if the delay is due to
conditions which are reasonabl.y beyond the control of the
developer. Extensions which nay not exceed nine (9) nonths,
roay be granted due to seasonal or weather conditions. when an
extension is granted, the city sha).I require such additional
security as it deeros appropriate.
(4) Requests for use of alternative landscaping
are justified only when one or Dore of the follolrlng
apply:
a. The site involves space linitations or
shaped parcels.
provisions
condit ions
unusual ly
b Topography, soil, vegetation, or other siteconditions are such that full conpli-ance is
inpossible or inpracticabl.e.
Due to a chanqe of userequired buffer yard
provided, and
an existing site, thelarger than can be
ofis
d. safety considerations are involved.
DIVISION 2. TREE REMOVAL REGUIATTONS.
Section 2o-]-L78. Generally.
(a) It is the policy of the city to Preserve natural woodland
areas throughout the city and with respect to specific site
development to retain as far as practical, substantial tree stands
which can be incorporated into the overall landscape plan.
(b) No clearcutting of woodland areas shall be permitted
except as approved in a subdivision, planned unit developnent orsite plan appl ication.
(c) The following standards shall be used in evaluatingsubdivisions and site plans:
(1) To the extent practical, site design shall preservesignificant rroodland areas.
3
(2) Shade trees of six (6) inches or nore caliper atfour (4) feet in height shall be saved unl.ess itcan be deBonstrated that there is no other feasibleway to develop ttre.site.
(3) The city nay require the replacement of renovedtrees on a caliper Lnch per caliper inch basis. Atnininun, however, repla-enent trees shall confornto the pJ.anting requirenent identified in Division3 of this article.
(4) During the tree renoval process, trees sha1l berenoved so as to prevent blocking of public rights_of-way or interfering with overhLad utifity tines.
(5) The reDoval of diseased and danaged trees ispernissible.
DIVISION 3. I,ANDSCAPING STANDARDS
Section 2O-7L79. Iandscape Budget.
(a) There shar.l be provided landscaping neeting the nininunlandscaping budget providLd in the table 6el5w.. '
_ (d) Tree renoval not pernitted under subdivision, plannedunit developnent or si.te pran review sharr not b" ai1;;;a iittroutthe approval of a tree rernovat plan by the city councir.--- Treerenovar plans shatr incrude the content ieguirenenls as-aiEatea inSection 20-1177 and -identify reasons for- tree removal fhe p:,ansha1l be subnitted tl'ree (3) rreeks in advance of the city c-uncirDeeting at which it is to be considered.
(hcluding building construction,site preparatj.on, and site inproveuents)
Below Slr00OrOOO
$1,000,001 - s2,ooo,ooo
PROJECT VALUE
s2 , 000, 001 s3,000, 000
}TTNIM(,M IANDSCAPE
VALUE
2*
$20,000 + 18 of
Proj ect Value inexcess of
$1 , O00, 0oo
s30,000 + 0.75*of Pro j gct
Value in excessof $2,OOO,OOO
4
s3,ooo,0o1 - s4,o0o,ooo 937,500 + 0.25tof Pro j ect
Value in excessof $3,000, O00
(a) Any visual inpact, including but not linited to, truck
loading areas, trash storage, Parking lots, interior lot areas andperineters, large unadorned building nassing, .garage doors
associated rrith auto oriented uses and vehicular stacking areas for
drive-thru uses shall be screened or buffered whenever located in
any residential, cornmercial or industrial zone except sing).e fanily
residences in the A1, A2, RR and RSF districts. Structures nay be
grouped together, however, screening height reguirenents will be
based upon the tallest of the structures.
1) Required screening or buffering for any visual irnpact nay
be achieved with fences, walIs, earth berns, hedges or
other landscape materials. A11 walls and fences shall
be architecturally harnonious with the principal
building. Earth beras sha1I not exceed a slope of 3:1.
The screen shall be designed to enploy naterials which
provide an effective visual barrier during aLl seasons.
2)AI1 required screening or buffering shall be located onthe lot occupied by the use, building, facility or
structure to be screened. No screening or buffering
sha11 be located on any public right-of-way or withineight (8) feet of the traveled portion of any street or
highway.
3)Screening or buffering required by this section shall beof a height needed to acconpLish the goals of thissection. Height of plantings reguired under this sectionshall be neasured at the tine of installation.
5
Over $4, OOO, O0O lt
Tree preservation Ls encouraged and may be applled to existing
vegetation on the site.
section 20-1180. Visual fmpacts.
(b) The following uses shall be screened or buffered in
accordance rrith the requirenents of this subdivision:
1) Principal buildings and structures and any buildingor structure accessory thereto located in anybusiness, industrial or planned unit developmentdistrict containing non-residential uses shall bebuffered frop lots used for any residentialpurpose.
2) principal buildings and structures and any buildingor structure accessory thereto located in any Rl ,R8, R12, R1G District or planned unit developnentdistrict containing residential developnenl atdensities exceeding 4 units per acre ;ha1I bebuffered fron lots located in any A1, A2, Rh or RSFDistrict.
3) Additional buffer yard requirenents are establishedby the city courprehensive plan and listed inindividual districl standards.
4) outside Etorage in any district subj ect to these-provisiona and allowed by other provisions of thisordinance, shal1 be screened fron- a1t public ri.r=.
Section 20-1181. Vehicular Areas.
^_...^.(':l_ ::Tkil? l.t.periroeters where vehicuLar areas, inctudingdrrveways and drive aisles, are not entirely screened "i="iify Uian int-ervening building or structure frou any abutting riqht_of_lray, there shall _be provided randscaping cresig:ned i"- urir"i'Ii"".tvlews of cars and hard surface areas. The goir of this section isto break _up expanses of hard surface areas, irefp to visuaity ietinebouLevards and soften direct views of parxLng areas.
(b) Interior Landscaping for vehicular Use Areas:
1) Any open vehicular use are (excluding loading,unloading, and storage areas in fo-p lna BGDistricts) containing- nore than six thousana(5,000) square feet of area, or twenty (20) or norevehicular parking spaces, -sha1l pro'vihe 'in[er:.or
Iandscaping in accordance with dhis aivision inaddition. to rperinetertr landscaping. -- ' -t-nErior
landscaping nay be peninsular or ista-na ty$;.
2) For each one hundred (1OO) square feet, or fractionthereof, of vehicutar use lrea, fivi 1sf iquarefeet of 1andscaped area shalL be' provided.'
3)
4)
The nininum landscape area pernittedsixty-four (54) squire feet, with aninimum dinension to all irees fronpavernent where vehicles overhang.
shall befour foot'edge of
In order to encou_rage the required landscape areasto be - p-rgp-erl_y dispersed, no required lindscapearea sh^]l be.Larger_ than three hundred fifty (35t1)square feet in vehic-.:ar use areas under - tliirdithousand (30rOOo) sguare feet. In both cases, thileast diurension of any required area shall be iour_
6
5)A niniroun of one (1) tree sha1l be regui.red foreach tuo hundred fifty (250) square feet orfraction thereof, of reguired landscape area.
Trees shall. have a clear trunk of at least five (5)
feet above the ground, and the renaining area shall
be landscaped with shrubs, or qround cover (not to
include rocks or gravel), not to exceed trro (2) 'feet in height.
6)Parked vehicles nay hang over the interior
landscape area no nore than two and one-half (21)
feet, as long as a concrete curb is provided to
ensure no greater overhang or penetration of the
landscaped area.
(c) where undeveloped or open areas of a site are locatedadjacent to public right-of-way, the plan shall provide for
overstory boufevard trees. A roinirnun of one (1) tree for everythirty (30) feet of frontage is required. The City nay approvealternatives if it neets the intent of the ordinance.
Section 20-1183. Landscaping Materials.
(a) The landscaping naterials shall consist of the following:
(1) walls and fences. llaIls sha1l be constructed ofnatural stone, brick or other appropriatenaterials. Chain link fencing will be pernitted
7
foot nininun dinension to aLL trees fron edge of
pavernent nhere vehicles overhang. Iandscape areaslarger than above are pernitted as long as theadditional areas are in excess of the reguired
ninirnurn.
7) A11 landscaped areas shall be protected by concrete
urbing.
Section 2o-LLa2. Foundation and Aesthetic Plantings.
(a) Landscaping plans shall provide for an appropriate mix ofplantings around the exterior footprint of all buildings. The
intent of this section is to improve the apPearance of the
structures and, where necessary, break up large unadorned building
elevations. These plantings are not intended to obscure vier,rs of
the building or accessory signage.
(b) A11 undevetoped areas of the site, excluding protected
wetlands and tree preservation areas, shalL be seeded or sodded.In addition, an appropriate nix of trees and other Plant naterialshall be provided to create an aesthetically pleasing site.
(2)
(3)
only if covered with pLant haterial or othererisescreened (refer to Section 20-1180 [1]).
Earth berns. Earth berns shal] be physicalbarriers whlch block or screen the view siiiiar toa hedge, fence, or wa11. Uounds sha]l beconstructed with proper and adeguate plant materialto prevent erosion. A diffeienc'e in elevationbethreen areas requiring screening does notconstitute an existing earth mound, ind shall notbe considered as fulfilling any screenin!requirenent.
Plants.. .A11 plant materials shall be living plantsan9 artificial plants are prohiblted. plantrnaterials shatl Deet the follo;ing r'equirenents:
a) Deciduous trees. Shal1 be species having anaverage nature crotn spread of greater thanfifteen (15) feet and -having trink(s) whichcan be naintained nith over iive 1Sj feet ofclear wood in areas uhich have 'visibility
requirements, except at vehicular use areaintersections uhere an eight (8) foot elearwood requireraent wil1 control. Trees havin!an,average nature spread of crown Less thaififteen (15) feet nay be suUstltutla ---Uy
grouping of the sane so as to create th6equivalent of a fifteen (15) foot crolrnspread. A rnininun of ten (10)' feet overallheight or mininum ca).iper '(tiunk aianeiei,neasured six (6) inches ibove'ground for treeiup,to four (4) inches caLiper) of at least tvoand one-haIf- (2\) incheJ inrnediately afterplanting shall be required. Trees of -species
whose roots are known to cause danale topublic roadways or other public works -shall
not be placed closer than flfteen (15) to suchpublic works, unless the tree root systen iscompletely contained within a barrier forwhich the nlninurn interior containinldinensions shall be five (5) feet sguare anifive (5) feet deep and' for wtiich theconstruction reTrirenents shall be four (4)inches thick, reinforced concrete.
Evergreen trees.nininun of six (6)caliper of one andplanted.
Evergreen trees sha11 be afeet high with a nininumone-half (11) inches vhen
8
b)
c)Shrubs and hedges. Deciduous shrubs shaIl beat least two (2) feet in average height whenplanted, and shall confora to the opacity andother requirements within four (4) years afterplanting. Evergreen shrubs shall be at leasttwo (2) feet in average height and two (2)feet in dianeter.
d)
e)
f)Retaining ualls exceeding five (5) feet in
height, including stage ualls which
curaulatively exceed five (5) feet in height,
nust be constructed in accordance with Plansprepared by a registered engineer or landscapearchitect.
DTVISION 4. }IAINTENANCE AND INSTALI.ATION.
Section 20-1184. Generafly.
The ovner, tenant, and their respective agents shall be heldjointly and severally responsible to naintain their property and
landscaping in a condition presenting a healthy, neat and orderly
appearance and free fron refuse and debris. Plants and ground
cover which are reguired by an approved site or landscape plan andwhich have died sha1l be replaced r,rithin three (3) nonths ofnotifications by the city. However, the tirne for conpliance Day be
extended up to nine (9) nonths by the director of planning in orderto alLow for seasonal or weather conditions.
Vines. Vines sha1l be at least twelve (12)
inches hiqh at planting, and are generally
used in conjunction uith walls or fences.
crass or ground cover. crass shal1 be planted'
in species normally grolrn as pernanent lavns,
and may be sodded, plugged, sprigged, or
seeded; except in swales or other areas
subject to erosion, where solid sod, erosion
reducing net, or suitable nulch shall be used,
nurse-grass seed shaIl be sorrn for irnnediate
protection until conpl.ete coverage otherwiseis achieved. Grass sod sha1I be cLean and
free of weeds and noxious pests or diseases.
Ground cover such as organic material shall be
planted in such a manner as to present a
finished appearance and seventy-five (75)
percent of conplete coverage after two (21
complete growing seasons, with a naxinun offifteen (15) i.nches on center. In certain
cases, ground cover also may consist of rocks,
pebbles, sand and sinilar approved uraterials.
9
SUBDTVISION ORDINANCE
Section 18-61. Landscaping and Tree preservation Requirenents.
(a) Required Landscaping/Residential Subdivisions
1) Each 1ot sha11 be provided with a uininum of three(3) trees, two (2) trees 6ha11 be deciduous and one(1) a coniferous tree (the city will provide a listof species). Coniferous trees nust be at least 6feet high and deciduous trees nust be at least 2linches in diarneter at the tine of installation. A[least one (1) deciduous tree nust be placed in thefront yard area. Trees Dust be installed prior toreceiving a certificate of occupancy or financialguarantees acceptable to the city nult be providedto ensure tinely installation. This reqirirenentnay be uaived by the city lrhen the applicant candernonstrate that suitable trees having a roinirnumdianeter of G inches and 4 feet above the groundare Located in appropriate locations on the Lot.The lraj.ver shal1 be applied for each existing treeagainst each required tree on a one-for-one 5asis.
(2)
(3)
(4)
All areas disturbed by site grading and,/orconstruction nust be seeded or sodled inteaiatlfyupon conpletion of work to ninirnize erosion. Wheicertificates of occupancy are reguested prior tothe satisfaction of this requir6nrent, financiaLguararltees acceptable to the city, nust beprovided.
No dead trees or uprooted stumps sha11 renain afterdevelopnent. On-site burial is not pernitted.
Landscaped buffers around the exterior of thesubdivision shaII be required by the city when theplat is conti.guous rrith colGctor or- arterialstreets as defined by the Conprehensive plan andwhere the plat is adj acent to nore intensive landuses. Required buffering shall consist of bernsand landscape naterial consistlng of a mix of treesand shrubs and/or tree preservation areas. Whereappropriate, the clty nay require additional 1otdepth and area on lots containing the buffer sothat it can be adequately acconmodated and thehomes protected fron impacts. Iot depths and areasmay be increased by 25* over zoning districtstandards. The landscape plan must be developedwith the prelirninary and fi;al plat subnittals iorcity app,roval. eppropridte financial guaranteesacceptable to the city shaIl be required.
10
b) It is the policy of the city to preserve natural woodlandareas throughout the city and rrith respect to specific site
development to retain as far as practical, substantial tree stands
r,rhich can be incorporated into the overall landscape p1an.
c) No clearcutting of woodland areas shaLL be pernitted
except as approved in a subdivision, planned unit deveLopment orsite plan application.
d) The following standards sha1l be used in evaluating
subdivisions and site plans:
1) To.the extent practical., site design shall preserve
significant woodland areas.
2) shade trees of Eix (5) inches or more caliper atfour (4) feet in height shall be saved unless it
can be denonstrated that there is no other feasible
way to deveLop the site.
3) The city nay reguire the replacement of renoved
trees on a caliper inch Per caliper inch basis. At
nininum, ho$rever, replacenent trees sha11 conforB' to the planting requirenent identified in Division
3 of this article.
4) During the tree removal Process, trees shalL be
trinroed or rernoved so as to prevent blocking ofpublic rights-of-way or interfering with overheadutility lines.
5) The removal of diseased and damaged trees, trees' that cannot be saved, is perroissible.
e) Tree renoval not pernitted under subdivision, planned unit
deveLopment or site plan review shall not be alloHed without the
approval. of a tree removal pfan by the city council. Tree renoval
plans sha1l include the content requirenents as dictated in Section
2o-L177 and identify reasons for tree renoval The plan shall be
subnitted three (3) weeks in advance of the city council neeting at
which it is to be considered.
REFERENCE SECTION 20-1184, Generally.
REPEAL SECTION 20-117. l,faintenance of site and landscaping AIID
SECTION 2o-L19, Landscaping financial guarantee required.
11
CITY OF
EH.[NH[E$EN
590 COULTER DBIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 .
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
MEMORANDIJI{
TO: Planning Cornnission
FROI!: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior planner
DATE: Uay 22, 1991
SUBT: Landscaping Ordinance
on April. 3, 199.1, the. planning cornnrission revierded the existinglandscaping ordinance to comrneit on what needed to be a:nended andupdat.ed. staff presented conaents on_ the exi=Cing -i.ii=..p"
ordinance and proposed changes. rne tolrowi"s ;ia-i";;ri.-.i.i:.."t=staffrs proposed anendnents to the landsc-:pe r6gulations i.=trrti'gin a higher standard of developn;a il €rre city. --rir.-lropo".a
changes include:
1. Additions to the intent statenent on visual inpacts, bufferingand tree preservation.
2. Changing the letter of credit fron 12Ot to 11Ot to beconsistent wirh other letter of credii ;quir;;en1;-." '
3. Alternative landscape provislons.
4. Landscape budget.
5. standards for screening of visual iupacts.
6. Foundation and aesthetic plantings.
7. subdivision regulations for landscaping singre fanily rots andsubdivisions.
Article X:fV, LaBdscapiDg and Tr€€ ReEovaI.
DIVISTON 1. GENERALLY
Section 2o-1L76. Intent, scope and conpliance.
(a) The intent of this article is to inprove the appearance
of vehicular use areas and property abutting public rights-of-way;'to require buffering between non-conpatible land usesi and toprotect, preserve and pronote the aesthetic appeal, character and
value of the surrounding neighborhoods i to promote public health
and safety through the reduction of noise pollution, air pollution,
visual, pollution and gIare.
(b) This article does not apply to single fanily detached
residences in the A7/ A2/RR/PSF Districts thich are regulated by
landscaping requirenents contained with the Subdivision ordinance.
'(c) No new site development, building, structure or vehicular
use area is al.Iowed, unless landscaping is provided as required inthis article.
(d) No property lines shall be aLtered nor shall any
building, structure or vehicular use area be expanded, unless the
rninimum landscaping required by the provisions of this article is
provided for the entire property.
(e) The lantlscapiug standlardls sball providle for acreeniag forvisual inpacts associated rith a given use, including but Dotlinited to:
truck loadiDE areasitrash storage iparking lots, interior lot ar€as ana perinaters;
large unadlorned buildiag nassing;
garage doors associated ritb auto oriented usesi aDAvehicular stacl(iDg areas for drive through useg
o
o
o
o
o
o
(f) Buffering sball be provided bettreeD bigh iatensitylon intensity uses aDal betreeD a gite aud najor stleetghighraye aDd ia arsas rbera bufferiag is requl.red by
ConprebeDsivs PlaD.
(S) Boulevardl andthe city.atreetscape plaDtlDg shall. be pursuedl by
(h) llature stands of trees shall be preservedl.
(i) Reforestation shalI be pursuedl as appropriate.
aDd
aDd
the
Landscaping Ordinance
Vlay 22 , L991
Page 2
Landscaping Ordinance
YIay 22, 799L
Page 3
Section 20-:j|77. plan Subnission and approval.
- T!. proFerty orrner _or developer shall prepare a landscape plandlranD - by a registeredt landtscapo arcbitec€ oi otber proiJi"i"aaracceptable to the city for.review by the city. The- city shaIlapply the following conditions in approval oi ai=approving theplan:
(1) The contents of the plan shall include the following:
a. plot p]an, drawn to an easily readabLe sca1e,showing and labelling by nane a-nd ainensions, affexisting and propo-se-d property rinei, easEnlnts,buildings, and ottrer ltructuies, vetricui"i ,.r"areas (includilg parking stalls, driveways, serviceareas, square- footag-e) , water outlets an& iandscapenaterial. (inclrrding botanical nane and "omron ,rara,instal.lati_o:r sizef on center pfanting -di.en=ions
where applicable, and quantities for- afi -fiants
used).
b. Typical -elevations and/or cross sectj.ons as nay bereguired.
c. Title block with the pertinent nanes and addressed(property owner, perton drarring plan, and p"..oninstall_ing landscape naterial),- "tii.' aite, -nortt
arrorJ - (g-enerally orient plan 'so that north is totop of plan), and zoning district.
Existing landscape naterial shallreguired plan and any materialcondition. nay be used to satisfywhole or in part.
J?) .P"r: land.scaping is required, no building pennit shal1De Lssuecl until the- required landscaping plan has beensubmitted and.approved, and no certifica€e oi "1."p.""y =tiiibe issued until the landscaping is cornpleted as c6rtiiiea uvan on-site inspection py tfre Luilding inspector,
"n1-"-== ii@ irrevocabre le{ter of credit frorn ibanking institution, has been p*,id subrnitted.
d be shown on thein satisfactorythis articte in
(3)
Landscaping ordinance
Ylay 22, l99L
Page 4
(3) fheD acreeDiag, laodscaping or other siEilar inproveuentsto propelty are tequireal by thi8 ordiDaDca, a l€tter ot cradit
sha1l be suppliedt by the osDer iD aD aDouDt €qual to at lerst
one buDdlreal teD (110, percent of the valuo of auch acreening,
laailscapiDg or other inproveneats. lfbe Becurlty Dust besatisfactoly to tbs city rDal shall De conditioaed upol
reinburseneut o! all expeDs€s incurred by tbe city for
engiueering, l€gaI or otb€r feeg. lr connectl.oa with nakiag or.
conpletiag auch iDproyoDeitB. The guar.nte. sball be providedtprior to th6 issuaDce of any buildiug pernit aDd ahall bevalid for a perioal o! tine ogual to oDe (1, full groring
seasoD after the date of iastallatioD o! the landscapiag. The
city Eay accept ! letter of credit or cash escror. IE tbe
event constructiol of tbe Proj€ct ig lot coDPletad sithia the
tine prescribed by buildling peraits aral other approval's, the
city nay, at its optiou, coBpl6t6 th€ rorl( r€qulred at the
expense of the orner aDd the sur€ty.
' The city nay a1loy aE exteDded period of tLne for
coEpletio! of atl landscaplag if tbe delay is. due to
coDditions ubich are reasoaably beyoDd the coDtrol of the
developer. Extensions rhlcb uay Dot exceell Dlne (9) DoDths,
lray be glantedl due to seasonal or reather conditioas. nheD an
extension is granted, the city ahall require sucb additional
security as it deens appropriate
(4)
e+an--=etrier-1lre'ees+r
({) Requests for use of alterDative landlscapiDg provisiors
are justifiedt oDIy rbeD on€ or Dole of the folloriug condltioag
APP1Y:
a.The site Lnvolves
shaped parcals.space liDitatl.oac or uDusually
b Topograpby, BoiI, vegetatioa,conditions aEs guch tbat fullinpossible or J.npracticable.
oa otber Bit6coDpll.alc. ia
Due to a change of use ofreguired buff€r yard 1gprovidled, aad
aa eriatiag sl,te,larg€r tba! can
the
be
d. Eafety considlerations are involved.
Landscaping 0rCinance
May 22, L991
Page 5
DIVISION 2. TREE REiIIOVAL REGULATTONS.
Section 20-L178. ceneralLy.
(1)- It is the policy of the city to preserve naturaL uoodlandareas throughout the city and wi€h r-spect to specific sitedevelopment to retain as far as practical, lubstantiai tr;; standswhich can be incorporated into €he overail fanascape pi;;. -
(b) No clearcutting of uoodland areas sha]l be perDittedexcept as approved in a subdivision, planned unit tevlfSpr"nt o,site plan application.
(c) The foll.owing standards shall be used in evaluatingsubdivisions and site p1ans:
(1) To the.extent pr-acti-cal, site design shall preservesignificant yoodland areas.
(2') Shade _trees of .six (6) inches or nore caliper atfour (4) feet in height sha1l be savea unilis itcan be demonstrated that there is no other iLiiiU:."hray to develop the site.
(3) The city nay require the replacenent of renovedtrees on a caliper inch per caliper incfr Uasis. Atnininrrnr- however, replaEenent trees sha,l contornto the- planting reguirenent identified in Oivisioa3 0f this articlo.
(4) During the tree renovaL process, trees shall berenoved so .as to prevent biocking bt-p"lii" -ri-q}rt=_
of-rray or interfering vith overhlad utifity iir,...
(5) The renoval ofpermissible.diseased and damaged trees is
(d) Tree renoval not pernitted under subdivision, plannedunit developnent or site plan review shaIl not ue airoweh iitiroutthe approval of a tree rernoval plan by the city councif. Treerernoval prans shall include the content iequirenenis as diEated insection 2o-Lr77 and identify reasons for- tree renovar trrJ pransha1l be submitted tlree (3) ueeks in advance of the city -ouncrr
meeting at which it is to-be considered.
Landscaping Ordinance
Vay 22, 7991
Page 6
DMSIoN 3. IANDSCAPING SIaIIDARD8 M.
section 2O-LL?9. Landscape Budgat.
(a) There shall be provided laadlscaping D€etilg the EiDiEuD
landscaping budget providled ltr tbe table belor.
PRoirEcr yNJUE ltlNlusr{
VIL,UE(IDcluding buildiag coDstructr.oD,site preparatioD, aDA site Lnproveueats)
IJANDSCAPE
Belor, $1r000r000
$1r ooo r o01 - 92rooorooo
$2r000r001 - $3,000r000 930,000 + 0.75!tof ProJsct
Yalue La excessof 93roo0rooo
S3r00OrO01 - $il,OO0r0O0 9371500 + 0.25tof ProJ oct
value iD excessof $3r000r000
Over ${ r 000, O0O 1t
fhe nininun landlscapo value reguired nay be flexible lf treepreservatioa is apptied to existing vegetation oa the sl.te.
SectioD 20-1180. visual IEpactB.
(a) Any sesriee+trueture visual inpact, incluitiag but Dotlinited to, truclc loadiDg areas, trash storage, parkiDg 1ots,interior lot areas andl perineters, large uuadtornedl buildliagnassing, garag€ doola associatedl rith auto orieDted uses aadvehicular stacking ar€as fo! drl,ve-thru uses sha1l be screened orbuffered whenever Located in any residential, connercial orindustrial zone except slagle fallily resl.dences LD the A1, 12, RRand RSF districts @. Structures nay begrouped together, however, screening height requirements wiII bebased upon the tallest of the structures.
1, Requiredt screening or buffering for any visual iurpact naybe achievedl with fences, t'alls, eartb berDs, hedg€s or
2*
920r000 + :'t of
Proj ect value iDgxceaa of
slrOO0rO00
Landscaping Ordinance
Ylay 22 , l99l
Page 7
other lauilscape uaterl.alg. l1l ralls aDd foDcas shallbe architecturally barnoaious rith the priucipalbuildiDg. Earth ber 3 ahall aot erce€al a alopi oC s:f.lfbe scr€eD sbaIl be desigD€dl to eEploy uaterials rhichprovide an effective visull barrief auiiag all ieasons.
2l All requir.d screeniag or buffering shalt be locatear oDth6 lot occupieat by th€ uge, bufdiag, taciiity or.Btructure to be acreened. No acreenia! or buE;ri.;shall be l-ocat6A_ og uy public rlght-of--vay Ji-rtttta€igbt (8) f€€t of the tiaveled portioa ot iu:y etreet orbighway.
3) screeniag or buffering requrredt by thia section sharr beof a height neeatedt to icconplilh the goafs oi tlissectiotr. Eerght o! plaDtiDgs r-equrred unae-r irrs-s;ctionshal1 be Deasur€at at the tine oi iagtaltatlon.
(b) The folloning -u'es sbalr be gcreened 0r buffe!.dt rDaccor.lancegiththerequireneatso!thissubd1visioa
1) priDcipal. bulldings aDd structures aDd any buildiagor structut€- accessory theroto locate-d ia aDybusiness, iDdustlial oi planned unit aevetopnentdistrict coataiuiag non-risLdteatiaf uses '"l"ff
U"bufferedl flon lots used for aDy residentiaf
PurPose.
2,) principal buildtings aDd atructures and any buildiugo" .il].tlfe accessory thereto located in aiy nr,R8, R12, R16 Dlstrict or -planaed unit aevei-pueutdistrict containing resitential aeveiopneat atdlensities exceediag a uDits p", a"r" --"liir l.buffered fron lots located tn aiy 11, 12, nn or nefDi stri ct.
3) AatditioDal buffer yardr requirenents ars estabrishedtby tl. City conprehensive plaD aDd listed inindividual district ataDdtards.
a) outside storag6 il aay dLstrict Bubject to theseprovisions and allowed by other proviilons Lt tnt,ordtinance, shall b€ screened frod'all p.rliio-vf.r.r.
SectioD 20-1181. yehicular Ar€as.
.__,..1?l_ -P_1I-I_ll_S-
lot perineters uhere parJsi*gi vehicular areas,lncrudr.ng driveways a'd drive- aisIes, aie not- entirely screenedvisually by an interv-en-ing buildi-ng or structu.re from any abuttingright-of -way, there sha1l be providtd ra"as""pin! ;;;";=..h_=""
Landscaping Ordinance
Ylay 22, 1991
Page 8
deslguedl to buffar alirect viersof cars andl bard surface !!eas. ltbe goal of this aectioa Ls tobreak up expaDses of bard surface ar€as, belp to viaually deflDe
boulevards aDd aoften dlrect vlers of parkiDg areas.
(b) Interior Landscaping for Vehicular Use Areas:
1) Any open vehicular use are (excluding Ioading,.unloading, and storage areas in IoP and BGDistricts) containing nore than six thousand
(5rooo) square feet of area, or tuenty (2o) or morevehicular parking spaces, shall provide interior
Iandscaping in accordance with this division inaddition to rrperiDeterrr landscaping. Interior
tandscaping nay be peninsular or island types.
2l For each one hundred (100) square feet, or fractionthereof, of vehicular use area, five (5) squarefeet of landscaped area shall be provided
3)The rnininun landscape area pernitted shall besixty-four (64) square feet, with a four foot
minimun dinension to all trees fron edge of
pavenent where vehicles overhang.
4)fn order to encourage the required landscape areasto be properly dispersed, no required landscape
area shall be larger than three hundred fifty (350)
square feet in vehicular use areas under thirty
thousand (301000) square feet. In both cases, theleast dinension of any reguired area shal1 be four-foot nininum dinension to a1I trees froro edge of
pavenent where vehicles overhang. Landscape areaslarger than above are pernitted as Long as theadditional areas are in excess of the required
rnininum.
s)
5)
A rnininuu of one (1) tree shall. be required foreach two hundred fifty (250) square feet orfraction thereof, of required landscape area.Trees shall have a clear trunk of at least five (5)feet above the ground, and the renaining area shallbe fandscaped with shrubs, or ground cover, not toexceed trro (2) feet in height.
Parked vehicles Day hang over the interior
landscape area no Eore than two and one-half (2*)feet, as long as a concrete curb is provided toensure no greater overhang or penetration of the
landscaped area.
Landscaping ordinance
YIay 22, l99l
Page 9
7) A1I Landscaped areas.shall be protected by concretecurbing.
Section 20-1182. FouDdtatioD .Dd testh€tlc plaDtlDg3.
- !.1 LaDdlscapiag plaDs €hall Providte for aD appropriate nir ofplantiDgs arouDdt tha . erterl.or fo-otpriat of aII -iutiatags.
Theintent of this section lg to irirov. the ap;,."raa"J it tu.structules andt, rhere !€c..sgrry, bre-al up large u-n-aaoi"ea u"irar"gel.ev_ations. rhese plrDtings ara aot t nt-enared to obscure vi€rs otthe buitding oD acc€ssory iigaage
(b) A1I undteveloped areas of tbe aite, excludiDg plotectedwetrandls. aDd tree praBervatio! areaa, Bbalr bs seeded-oi aodat€d.r:r addition, an appropriate nir of trees and other lrini-niterrarshalI be provided to create an aesthetlcally pleasiig eite. -
(c) wher€ unatevslopsd or open areas of a site are locateaadjacent to public
-
ri9lt-of-ra1i, the plan stiif- pr""ia. foroverstory bourevardr tree8. l aiaiu,n oi oae (r) tre--e cor lveryforty (a0) feet of frontage is requLred.
Section 20-1183. Landscaping Materials.
(a) The r.andscaping rnateriars shalr consist of the forrowing:
(1) Wa11s and fences. WaIIs EhaII be constructed ofnatural stone, brick or artificial uaterials.Fences shall be constructed of wood. Chain linkfencing will be pernitted onty if covered wiifr vooastrips or plant rnaterial.
(2'l Earth berns. Earth berns shall be physicalbarriers lrhich block or screen the view siiiiar toa hedge, fence, dr wall. llounds shall beconstructed uith proper and adequate plant naterialto prevent erosion. A diffeience- in elevationbetween areas .requiring screening does notconstitute an existing earth nound, ind shall notbe considered as fulfilling any screeningequipnent.
(3) plants. At,r: plant naterials shal1 be livingplants. artificiat plants are prohibited and shallmeet the following requirenents:
a) Declduous trees. Shal1 be species having anaverage nature crown spread of greater lhanfifteen (15) feet and having trrink(s) which
Landscaping Ordinance
Ylay 22, !99L
Page 10
b)
c)
d)
e)
can be'naintained with over five (5) feet ofclear wood in areas which have visibilityrequirements, except at vehicular use areaintersections where an eight (8) foot clear
wood reguirenent rrilI control. Trees havingan average nature spread of croun less thanfifteen (15) feet may be substituted bygrouping of the same ro as to create theequivalent of a. fifteen (15) foot crown.spread. A mininun of ten (10) feet overallheight or DiniDuE caliper (trunk di.aneter,
neasured six (6) inches above ground for trees
up to four (4) inches caliper) of at least t$ro
and one-haIt (2'a) inches irnnediately afterplanting shaIl be required. Trees of species
whose roots are knorrn to cause danage topublic roadlrays or other public rrorks sha1l.
not be placed closer than fifteen (15) to suchpublic works, unless the tree root systen iscompletely contained within a barrj.er forrrhich the nininum interior containing
dirnensions shall be five (5) feet sguare andfive (5) feet deep and for which theconstruction requirernents Ehall be four (4)
inches thick, reinforced concrete.
Evergreen trees. Evergreen trees shall be anininun of six (6) feet high with a mininumcaliper of one and one-half (1*) inches nhen
planted.
shrubs and hedges. Deciduous shrubs shal1 beat least tiro (2) feet in average height whenplanted, and shall conforn to the .opacity andother requirenents sithin four (4) years afterplanting. Evergreen shrubs shall be at leasttno (2) feet in average height and tuo (2)feet in dianeter.
Vines. Vines shall be at Least twelve (12)inches high at planting, and are generally
used in conjunction with walls or fences.
crass or ground cover. Grass shall be plantedin species nornally grown as perruanent 1awns,and nay be sodded, plugged, sprigged, orseeded; except in swal.es or other areassubject to erosion, where solid sod, erosionreducing net, or suitable mulch 6haII be used,nurse-grass seed sha1l be sown for inrnediate
protection until conplete coverage otherwiseis achieved. crass sod shaLl bL ctean andfree of weeds and noxious pests or diseases.cround cover such as organic material shall beplanted in such a Danner as to present afinished appearance and seventy-iive (25)percent of corplete coverage after two (2jcornplete growing seasons, with a naxinum offifteen (15) incbes on center. fn certaincaiei, ground cover aL-so nay consist of rocks,pebbles, sand and sinilar approved nateriaLs.
Retaining uall3 exceediag five (5) feat lnbeightr - iacludiug atige ra-rie rrhichcuDulatl.vely exceedt five (S, feet ia heigbt,nust be coDstructed Ln accordance rith pianiprepareal by a registered engLneer or landscapearchl.tect.
DIVISTON 4. I{ATNTENANCE AND INSTALI.ATION.
section 20-1184. Generally.
The orner, tenant, aDd their respective ageDts shal1 be LeIdjointry andr severarly- r-esponsibl€ to naiatarn'ilei'-iiie-"iiv ."alandscaping ia a condition pr_esentiDg a heartry, neit-in-a-iiaerryappearance andl free fro[ r€fuse aDA debris. - -plauts aud qfroundcover vhich are requi_r_ed-by aD approved site or r"-"o=".p" ptln anarrhich have died shall be repfi-ceit yithiD thres tri- no-n1is otnotificatioDs by-the glty. Eoievar, the tin6 roi-coniri"i."i"y l.extendeat up to nine (9) nonths by the diractor "r pf "iroiog-ialraerto allorr for seasonal or reathei condlitious.
Landscaping ordinance
May 22, 1991.
Page 11
f)
SUBDIVISION ORDINENCE
i€n_
n*rg r
Landscaping Ordinance
YIay 22, L991
Page 12
(e) €onsistent y*th Fpproved grad*ng plans e'risting treesshal+ 'e preseffed rithin anl. n:ght ef yalr yhen €hey are -E:tably
t ^^-.l-^t ^-l : - -^^t L^^t .LL.
Yvw rrEur Lrr.
eeve+epnent=
SectioD 18-51. LaDdlscapiDg and lfre€ Pressrrratiotr Requir€n€Dts.
(a) Regulled LaDdscapiDg/ResideDtial Eubdivigioas
1) Each Iot shal! be provlded yith r riDinu! of three(3) trees. coDiferous treea Eust be at least 6feet high and decl.duous trees Dust bE at least 2t
iaches ia diaEeter at the tine of iDstallatioD. lt
least oDe (1) declduous tree Dust be Placed iD tbe
froDt yardl area. Tleeg Eust b6 lnstalled prior to
receiving a certificats of occupaDcy or fiaalcial
giuarantees acceptable to tho city Eust be providedl
to etrsure tinely iDstallrtlolr. Ihis requirenant
nay De ralved by tbe city shen tbe applicaat can
denonstrate that sultablo tre6E baving a nininun
di,tneter of 5 lDches ardl { f€Et above th€ grouDd
ar€ tocatedt la appropriate locatioDs oD the lot.
The rraiver shall be applied for eacb existlag tree
against each requf.red tree oD a on6-for-oue basis.
12, 111 areas alisturbed by sit6 grading anayor
constructioD Dust be seeded or sodlded innediately
upon cot[plotlon of uork to Diainize erosioa. Irhe!certificates ot occupancy are lequested prior toth6 aatisfactioD of this requirenent, flnanclalguaraDtees acceptable to th6 city, luat beprovi ded.
(3) No alead troes or uplooted Btunps ahall renalD afterdevelopBeDt. OD-site burial le aot pernltteit.
(f, Landlscaped buffers arouDd the exterl.or of th6subdlivision shaIl bo raguLr€d by the clty rhe! theplat is contLguous t Lth. collector or arterl.alstreets as defined by the coEpreheDsl,v€ plaa analwhere the plat is adjaceDt to nor6 intensive laaduses. Requiredl bufferiDg shall consl.st of berag
(e) *11 d*stsur'ed areas sha*} be Eeeded er sadded to preven€
eresior
aDdl laDalscape naterial coDsistiag of a Dir of treesaDd sbrubs tDdr/or tro€ preservatioD areas. fbereappropriata, tha city nay reguire addlltioDll lotdeptb a[d arar oD lota contaiDiag the bulfer Bothat it can be adequately .ccoEBodated aDA th€boEes protected lroD inpacts. Lot depths rld areasEay be l,ncreased by 25* ove! zoniag dlBtrictstandlardls. -T!e- laDdlscape plaa nust be develop€drlth tbe prellniaary anO fiaal plat subnittals ior.city rpp_rovaI. Appropriat€ fiuancial grualaDteesacceptablo to ths city Bhall be requiredl.
b). - It is the policy o! th6 city to preserye Datural roodlaDdareas tbroughout the city snat viil respect to specific sitedevelopnent to retain as fcr as practical, lubstanttai trei atandtsrhich can be iDcorporatedl iuto the overail fanAscape pi;. -
c) No crearcuttiag of. roodrlaDdt areas ahalr be pernitt€dtexcept !s approved iD a subarivisLon, planDed unit dever6pnent orsite plan application
d) The followiDg standarats sha1I be usedt in evaluatingsubdlivisions andl site plaas s
1) To the_.exteDt practical, site design sball preservesignificant soodlaDd ar€as.
Landscaping Ordinance
Ylay 22, l99l
Page 13
2',)
3)
.)
s)
shadle trees of sl.r (6, iDches or Dor6 caliper atfour (t, feet Ln teight shrll be eaved uullss itcaD be deEoastrated that tbere lg Do other feasibleYay to develop th6 8its.
The city nay requira the replacenent of reEovedtreeg oD a callper inch per caliper iuch basie. ltnininun, horrever, repla-enent tiees shal1 coDfo:rto the plaDtiDg requirenent ldlentifiedt in Divisiol3 of this article.
During the tr6e reEoval process, trees 8ha1l berenovedl so -as to pravent blocf,ing of public rlghts_of-way or iuterfering uitb overheadt utiftty liaes.
The renoval of diseasea aDd lta.uaged tr6es igpermisslble.
e) lrree renoval Dot pernitted ulzer subdtivisron, plannedt unitdevelopEeDt or site plan review shal.l Dot be arlowedl -nithout th€approval of a tree removal pla! by th€ city council. free renovalprans shall inctude th6 coDtent requirenents as atictatedl ia iectioa20-LL7z and idrentify reasoDs lor tree reuovar rue priu snirr r"
Landscaping Ordinance
Yray 22, 199!
Page 14
subnitteal tbre6 (3) re€ks ia aalvaDce of th6 city couDcl.l neetiDg at
t hich it is to ba coasidered.
REPEAL SECIION 20-117, Maintenance of site and landscaping AND
SECTION 20-]-19, Landscaping financial guarantee required.
CITY OF
cHINH[SEil{
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O, BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAx (612) 937_5739
MEIIIORANDII!.{
To! planning Commission
FRoM: paul Krauss, pianning Director
DATE: February 26, Lgg!
sUBf: Issuepaper/LandscapingOrdinance
BACKG ROUND
Recently there has been considerable discussion concerning the:ia,'=_1._llscaping ordinance ana inliovenents ttrat ,.v i.'i.a. torE . hprovements that rrould result in a higher tt.rra.ia ofdevelopment in' the city have ueen estauli=t.a-i=--" gJii-iy tt.PLanning cornnission and sinilar sentinent has been "6troEa-ty utI'east several rnembers
^of- the city counciL. rrris ieport lifl.,t..a"ato give an overview of the p,r.p&" u"tri"a ranascipint Lt."i"ia. .=well as current ordinancesl r-eviewing irr.ir p-o-=-iti"'. -.-JpJJi. ..,ashortcomings. your response to this infornation rrirr be -qiven torconsideration for inclrlsion in any "-;-;;;i;;;";"-if,; "r'J,ira u.devel.oped.
GOALS
A discussion of the .landscaping standards should beqin withagree-ment on goars as to what is to re achieved lv ttr. -oia-i".rr...
rhe fotlowins. soa1s. are presented for di;;"s;l;' il;;"-.-;' rhePLanning cornrnission i.s encLuraged to redefine, add oi -"-,iu-t-.-.1 tro,this list as appropriate.
1. The . randscaping standards should provide for aestheticplanting of site-s and buildings. trr6se pianting= JiJ,;ra u.designed to add color, natiral grortli, as ir"f i--"" anintroduction of the natural environmlent into sites. - -
2. Landscaping standards should provide for screening for visualimpacts associ.ated nith a giv:en use, -i""f"ai"Ji
o truck loading areas,o trash storage,o parking lots, interior lot areas and perineters,
Landscaping Ordinance
February 26, l99l
Page 2
large unadorned building massing (reference the recentsite plan approval for l,Icclynnrs that used landscaping to
miniurize the visual inpact of high, blank walls,
garage doors associated with auto oriented uses, and
vehicular stacking areas for drive through uses
o
o
3
4
5
6
7
Buffering between high intensity and low intensity uses should
be outlined as to where this is reguired and what constitutes.
a suitable buffer.
Buffering of a site for najor streets and highways relative to
noise and visual inpacts.
Boulevard or streetscape planting should be investigated.
Boulevard and streetscape planting typically takes place off
site and is often not the direct responsibility of a
developer. At the present tine, the City is working with
MnDoT on a Highway Beautification Progran for the new section
of Highway 5 through downtown chanhassen.
uature stands of trees and natural areas such as rretlands
should be protected. Protection of existing features and
their enhancenent where possible shoutd be the prinary focus
with replacernent being considered only after alternatives are
reviewed and disnissed.
Reforestation should be considered uhere appropriate.
ORDINANCE P ORMAT
The ordinance should be conprehensive covering aII sorts of
developments. At the present tine, the ordinance is effectiveonly under site plan reviews. Regulations affecting
subdivisions are handLed elsewhere in the ordinance and areLess effective. P.U.D. t6 do not have any specific
requireroents.
The ordinance should provide aurple gruidance as to what thecityts design expectations are without unduly liniting designflexibility. fn our opinion, there are a nunber of
landscaping ordinances that becone so reginented in their
approach to defining landscaping standards that you wind upwith a cookie cutter approach to landscaping design. IdeaIIy,
1
2
The following constitutes our understanding of what needs to be
incorporated into an effective landscaping ordinance. Theseguidelines, plus any others proposed by the Planning Commission,
should be used to critically review any ordinance anendnents that
we wish to consider.
Landscaping Ordinance
February 26, L99]-
Page 3
(b) This article doesresidences.not apply to single fanily detached
the ordinance rrould aLlow a good designer to refLect thedemands of the site and the se€ting it il p).acett in.
3. Minirnun standards should be provided to ensure that a baselineLevel of guality is achieved.
4. The ordj.nance should be relatively easy to interpret andenforce. There are a nunber ot orainarices that fr-u"" U.."drafted- that pronote higlr .guality desiga but ;;; "o-t-orpr"*that only a landscape afchitect c-an re1iably interpi.i then.we shourd strive to have an ordinance that ir ""d;;=a;ndableby 1ay people as well as professionals. fnforceneni snoutaalso be taken into accounl. For exanple, .r, o"ainirr"" ,.yrequire r.B0t opacit:,l,,- ir.g landscape scieen betueen a partcinf1ot and a residential site. rn iy opini"",- ttiE'is'atno=timpossibre to enforce since it is aitriturt il, a.ri"J-rir.t eo*opacity actually- nea-1s and then get a reliabll -i-nGrpreiation
of this out in the fietd.
CURRENT I,ANDSCAPTNG REOUIREMENTS
The following is a revj.ew of the various landscaping reguirementscontained in our current ordinances. randscaping '"i.-rr=d.id" .."found in several different portions of the orailnan-ce.
Article Xxv, Landtscaping and !!ree ReEovaI.
DIVISION 1. GENERAI,LY
Section 2O-L176. Intent, scope and compliance.
(q) The intent of this arti.cle is to inprove the appearanceof vehicutar use areas and property auutting lGii" iigirrS:ii_r"y,to require buffering between no-nconpatibi"' i;;d -"-;;;; -"-"a t"protect, preserve and prornote the aesthetic appeal, cfraiacter anavalue of the surrounding neighborhoods i to piinota puuric -ieartrr
and safety through the reduction of noise poliution, "1i p"iruti."",visual pollution and glare.
(c) No new site development, building, structure or vehicularuse area.is arlowed, unless landscaping ii'proviaea-as-i"q"ii"a i.nthis article -
. Iat No property lines shall be altered no shall any building,structure or vehicular use area be expanded, unless tlhe -nin:.rnun
landscaping.required by the provisions'ot tti! ".t-i"L rs-piiviaeafor the entire property.
Landscaping Ordinance
February 26, L99L
Page 4
CO!{Ii,ENT: The intent section is good to have although guitepossibly lre uould consider expansions to better define theCityts purpose in landscaping. The exclusion of single faroily
development is noteworthy. Single fanily developnent does notundergo site plan review, therefore, the only effective
ordinance that comes into play is the Subdivision Ordinance,
No. 18. This wi}l be connented upon later. We also note that
due to the Ianguag€ of the current PUD ordinance, PUDrs arealso exenpt fron provisions of the Landscaping code.
Section 2o-LL7?. PIan Subnission and approval,.
The property owner or developer shaIl prepare a landscape plan
for review by the city. The city shalI apply the following
conditions in approval or disapproving the plan:
(1) The contents of the plan sha11 include the following:
a. Plot p1an, drawn to an easily readable scale,
showing and labetling by name and dinensions, aI1existing and proposed property lines, easenents,buildings, and other structures, vehicular use
areas (including parking staIls, driveways, service
areas, square footage), irater outlets and landscapematerial (including botanical nane and conmon nane,installation size, on center planting dinensions
where applicable, and quantities for aII plants
used) .
b. Tlrpical elevations and/or cross sections as nay be
required.
c. Title block with the pertinent nanes and addressed(property owner, person drawing p1an, and personinstalling landscape naterial), scale date, northarror, (generally orient plan so that north is totop of plan), and zoning district.
d. Existing landscape roaterial shalI be shown on therequired plan and any naterial in satisfactorycondition Day be used to satisfy this article inrrhble or in part.
(2) Where landscaping is required, .no building pernit sha1lbe issued until the required landscaping plan has beensubnitted and approved, and no certificate of occupancy shallbe issued until. the landscaping is conpleted as certiiied byan on-site inspection by the building inspector, unless a
Landscaping Ordinance
February 26, 199\
Page 5
COMMENT:
sonewhat
materia I
has been
Cornrniss i
perfornance bond, or irrevocable letter of credit. from abanking institution, has been paid
(3) If necessary, the city Day require a letter of credit tornsure proper installation of landscape naterial as withconplete cost of all vork certified by iandscape contractor,lrith the bond anount to include the aciual cosf plus t; aioipercent. The bond sha1l be released upon satisfactorvconpletion of the work as determined by the city
(4) where unusual site conditions exist where strictenforcement of the provisions of this article woufa ciuse-ihardship or practical difficutty, the planning .orri.=io" i"Jcity council uray waive the requirenents as plrt ot ttre siieplan review process.
Plan subnittal guidelines Day need to be fleshed outto give staff and the planning Conmission sufficientto review. Iten #3 pertaining to a letter of creditsuper_sed.ed by Section 20-119 approved by the.planningon and city Council last year.- -
Section 20-1179. Landscaping for service structure.
. (a) Any service structure shall be screened whenever locatedll_uny residential, conmercial 0r industriar zone -G"..pt-in .naRSF zones) . structures p-a-y b-e grouped together, trow"verr--scrllnintheight requirernents wirl be- ba3ed uion the talrest of thestructures.
(b) A continuous planting, hedge, fence, wall or earth noundshaI1. enclose any service st-ructuie- on ari sides unresi sucnstructure rnust be frequentry noved, in shich case screeninq or, .rrbut one (1) side is required. The average height ot trre -s6r"enin!
materiaL sharr be one (1) foot nore than ihe height ot itrJencroseastructure, but shall not be required to exceed-eight (8) feet inheight. whenever a service strutture is rocated neit tdi uoirairrgva1l, perirneter landscaping naterial, or vehicular "=a arealandscaping naterial, such wirls or screeni.ng naterial nay iurtillthe screening requirenent for that side of th6 service strtcture irthat wa1l or screening nateriar is of an average heighi suiiicientto meet the height requirenent set out in thii section. wt.rr".r.tservice structures are screened by piant rnaterial, iuctr rniieri.armay count toe/ards the furfi_rlnent of riquired interior or perimeterlandscaping. No interior randscaping srratt be required iiitrin ""area screened for servi,ce structures.
Landscaping Ordinance
February 25, L99l
Page 6
(c) Whenever screening rnaterial is placed around any trashdisposal unit or r.raste collection unit which is enptied or renovednechanically on a regularly occurringr basis, a curb to contain theplacenent of the container shalL be provided within the screeningmaterial on those sides where there is such Daterial. fhe curbingshalL be a least one (1) foot fror the naterial and shalL be
designed to prevent possible danage to the screening when the
container is enptied.
co!{l*IENT : This section is a good exaurple of a highly detailed
standard that is specifically designed to deal with one issue,in this case, service structures. This type of standard
should also be developed for each of the goal statenentsidentified in the beginning of this report. Eowever, I notethat from a design standpoint, there does not appear to be
much flexibility in terns of design creativity in this
section.
section 20-1179. Tree renoval regulations.
(a) It is the policy of the city to preserve natural woodland
areas throughout the city and with respect to speeific site
development to retain as far as practical , substantial tree stands
which can be incorporated into the overall landscape p1an.
(b) No clearcutting of woodland areas sha1l. be peluitted
except as approved in a subdivision, planned unit developnent orsite plan application.
(c) The foLLowing standards shall be used in evaluating
subdivisions and site plans:
(1) To the extent practical, site design shall preservesignificant woodland areas.
(21 Shade trees of six (6) inches or Dore caliper shallbe saved unless it can be denonstrated that thereis no other feasible way to develop the site.
(3) The city may require the replacenent of renovedtrees on a caliper inch per caliper inch basis. Atninimum, horirever, replacernent trees shatl conforDto the planting requlrement identified in division4 of this article.
(4) During the tree removal process, trees shall be
removed so as to prevent blocking of public rights-
Landscaping ordinance
February 26, L99l
Page 7
of-way or interfering with overhead utility lines.
(5) The renoval of diseased and danaged trees ispernissible.
. (d) Tree renoval not pernitted under subdivision, plannedunit development or site pran review shatl not be alrowed iritno,rtthe approval of a tree renovaL plan. by the city council. Treeremoval plans shall incrude the conterit iequirenenis as dictated insection 2o'Lr77 and
-
identify reasons for tree reuoval trre pranshaI1 be subnitted three (3f weeks in advance of the clty Eouncirat which it is to be considered.
couuENT: This section is ve.ry good fron an intent standpointalthough it needs to.be signiflclntly inproved ana rlvirniea tobecone truly effective. Also note the exclusion gra-niea tosingle and t:,.o fanily lots of record. As the- iianningComrnission is aware, ltaft is working with the- Drgn-ir, "r,experimentar prograro relative to identification of er"nents orthe urban forest warranting protection as we-fi--as areforestation p1an. This section should probably ue reviseabased upon the outcome of this progran.
DIVISION 2. PERII,iETER I,ANDSCAPING REQUIREI,IENTS
Section 20-1191. cenerally.
. (.1 Where parking areas are not entirely screened visually byan intervening building- or structure from a-ny abutting ;ight-or-way-, the-re sharr be provided l.andscaping betweEn such ariJ iia ,,rctright-of-way as follows:
(1) A strip of land. at least ten (10) feet in depth locatedbetween the abutting right-of-vajr and tfre veiicuiir o""area which sha11 be -l.ardscaped to include an aveiige ofone (1) tree for each forth (40) linear feet or fra6tionthereof. Such trees shall be located Ueiwiln theabutting right-of-way and the vehLcular u"" """.r.-(2) fn addition, a hedge, rrall, bem, or other opaque durablelandscape barrier of at least tro (2) teit-in heightshal1 be placed along the entire lengttr of the vehicularuse area. If 6uch opaquq durable bariier is of nonlivingnaterial, a ihruf or vine shall be planted .i""! tn"street side of said barrier and be llanted in such amanner to break up the expanse of the wal.l. A tuo_footbern nay b, -e. t1se9, . howewir, additional lanascaling atleast one (1) foot in heighL at tLne of prantinj -Jf,if f *
Landscaping Ordinance
February 26, l99L
Page I
installed. The r'enainder of the required landscape areasshall be landscaped vi.th grass, ground cover, or other
Landscape treatnent.
(b) This division applies to perineter landscaping.
COUI,IENT: This section deals specifically with .landscaping
around the perirneter of parking lots and fron an intentstandpoint, this is an acceptabl'e thing to do. However, the
standard of 1 tree per 40 linear feet is frankly, archaic and
does a disservice to the design standards whiclt already existin the city and vhich are likely to be inproved as a result ofthis analysis. In addition, the standard bern around the
parking lot does not lend a large anount of creativity. We do
note, however, that this standard has been nodifled sonewhat
by nehrly adopted regulations using a perfornance standard to
aIIoLr the property orrner to achieve reductions in parking Iot
setbacks.
litrNI[gl.t
VAIJUE
L}NDSCAPE
2*
$20,000 + lt of
Proj ect VaLue inexcess of
$1, OOO, bOO
s30,ooo + 0.758of Projects2,O00,0o1 - $3,000,o00
one of the nost noterrorthy things about this and. relatedsections is that there is a cohplete lack of nininum
landscaping standards for the site itself. fn other words,
there is no minimura aEount of planting that nust be done on a
given site which leaves staff in a position of using sections
such as this to in essence, coerce a legitinate landscapingplan out of a developer. Staff can think of several erays to
address this. one technique that I have used in the past isto establish a nininurn landscaping budget that utilizes aformula of linking project developnent costs to nininum
landscaping va1ue. The table used in the l,[innetonka Ordinanceis provided below as an appendix.
PRGTECT YAIJUE
(Including building construction,site preparation, and site
irnprovernents)
Belou S1,000,000
s1,OOO,0O1 - s2,000,000
Landscaping ordinance
February 26, L99l
Page 9
Value in excessof $3,000,000
$37,500 + 0.25tof Pro j ectValue in excessof $3 , O0o, ooo
over S4 ? 000, ooo 1t
(b)
areas .
This division applies to interior landscaping of such
r ::: i.":o_:1 1?r,^ ^R..qi-.ed_
1 and scap i ns ad j acent to interi or prope rtyJ.1nes, sectron 20-1193, Conbining with easements, and Seclion zO_1L94, Existing landscape nateriai
. (gl Where parking. areas abut property zoned or, in fact, usedprinarily for residential or instiiution.i ;".p;".;, A";;Jil;of such area not entirely screened visuarly tiy an rocat.a-=t-roctrr".or _e-xi-sting confonai-ng buffer fron an alUu€ting p."plrry-, -tfr.""
shaIl be provided a landscaped buffer which srotra t-"-,"'i'"t"i""aand replaced as needed. suLn randscaped buffer stair consist otpLant.naterial, walr or other durable birrier it r".=T =i*'iZj' r".tin height neasured fron the nedian ereva-t-ion-Jiii-.-p-.?i"i """.cl'osest to the cornnon 1ot 1ine, and be r.ocated betwee'n tue 6onnonlot line and the off-street parking areas or other vehicurar usearea exposed to the abutting. property. Fences sha11 be constructedaccording to the standards -in sicti6n 2O-1o18-
CguYENt: Again, I beLieve the intent is good but that bettermininum standards offering design flexibility-are wairint"a.
DTVTSION 3. INTERIOR IANDSCAPII{G FOR VEHICI'I,AR USE AREAS
Section 2O-1211. Generally.
(a) Any open vehicular !!e ?re (excluding loading, unl.oading,and storage areas in rop and BG Districts) containing itre ttran siithoysand (6,0O9) square feet of area, or twenty (20) oi ,o""vehicular parking spaces, ^slarr provide interior' ra'ntJcaping rnaccordance with this division in addition to ,'perineter.landscaping- rnterior randscaping nay be peninsular 'oi-istana
types .
Section 20-12]-2. Landscape area.
$3,000,001 - $4,OOO,OOO
Landscaping Ordinance
February 26, l99L
Page 10
(a) For each one hundred (100) square feet, or fractionthereof, of vehicular use area, five (5) square feet of landscaped
area sha1l be provided.
(b) The minimun landscape area pernitted shall be sixty-four(64) square feet, with a four foot minimum dinension to all trees
frorn edge of pavenent where vehicles overhang.
(c) In order to encourage the required landscape areas to beproperly dispersed, no required landscape area shal1 be larger than
three hundred fifty (350) square feet in vehicular use areas underthirty thousand (3o,ooo) square feet. fn both cades, the least
dimension of any required area shall be four-foot minirnurn diroensionto all trees frorn edge of pavenent where vehicles overhang.
Landscape areas larger than above are permitted as long as the
additional areas are in exeess of the required Dininun.
section 2o-!2L3. llininun trees.
A mininurn of one (1) tree sha1l be required for each two
hundred fifty (250) square feet or fraction thereof, of required
landscape area. Trees sha1l have a clear trunk of at Least five(5) feet above the ground, and the renaining area sha1l be
landscaped with shrubs, or ground cover, not to exceed tlro (2) feetin height.
Section 2o-]-2L4. Vehicle overhang.
Parked vehicles nay hang over the interior landscape area no
more than two and one-half (2'.r') feel, as long as a concrete curb isprovided to ensure no greater overhang or penetration of the
Landscaped area.
CoUttENT: In general, I believe that this is a very good
section and deals with a scenario that nany ordinances tend tooverlook. Large expanses of blacktop are not only unsightly,they actually change weather conditions in the innediatevicinity. In addition, large unbroken expanses of pavernentcreate a more difficult drainage problen. This section notonly establishes the intent but al.so nininum standards in whatare generally effective uays.
DrvrsroN 4. rnNDscAprNG I.{.ATERIA1S, EIC.
section 2o-l23l, cenerally.
(a) The landscaping rnaterials shall consist of the following:
Landscaping ordinance
February 26, ]-99!
Page l.1
(1)
(2)
(3)
Walls and fences. walts shall be constructed ofnaturaL stone, brick or artificial naterials.Fences shaLl be constructed of wood. Chain linkfencing will be permitted only if covered witfr wooastrips or plant material .
Earth nounds. Earth nounds shall be physicalbarriers which block or screen the view siiliiar toa hedge, fence, or vaL1. Mounds shall. be-constructed with proper and adequate plant naterialEo prevent erosion. A difference in elevationbetlreen areas .requiring screening does notconstltute an existing earth uround, ind sha1l notbe considered as -fuIfi11ing ant ="r."rringequiprnent.
:i:l::. _ i}-r: .pl-anr narerials shart be livinsplalt:-, artificial plants are prohibited and shalineet the following requirenent!:
(a) Quality. plant naterials used in coirformancewith_ provision of this divisior, "frifr confornto the standards of the American Association
?I__I:I::ryr.n and _ shall have passed anyInspecttons required under state regulations-.
(b) Deciduous trees. Sha11 be species having anaverage nature crown spread of greater fhanfifteen (ts) feet arrd -having ir,1"i1.1 ,fri"i,can be nraintained with over ?ive 1sj ieet ofclear wood in areas which have'"iriuiiityrequirenelts, except at vehicuLar use arealnEersections uhere an eight (8) foot clearwood requirernent will contlol. Trees havingan-average mature spread of crown tess thaififteen (19) feet Day be substitutea b,tgrouping of the saDe so as to create theequivalent of a fifteen (15) foot crown6pread. A ninimun of ten 1i.Oi teet overaLLheight or nininun caliper 'ltiuni afaneieilneasured six (6) Lnches above-ground for treesup to four (4) inches caliper) of at least twoand ore-hal f- (2\,t incheJ irnnediately afterplanting shal1 be required. Trees of -species
whose roots are knorrn to cause danale topull-lc roadhrays :.r other public works shallnot be placed c1o-ser than fifteen (15) to suchpublic. w-orks, unless the tree root iysten iscompletely contained within a barr-ier forwhich the urininun interior containing
Landscaping Ordinance
February 26, l99l
Page 12
dinensions shall be five (5) feet squarefive (5) feet deep and for which
construction requirenents shall be four
inches thick, reinforced concrete.
and
the
(4)
(c) Evergreen trees. Evergreen trees shall. be a
nininum of six (6) feet high with a nininumcaliper of one and one-haff (11) inches when
planted.
(d) shrubs and hedges. Deciduous Ehrubs shall beat least tlro (2) feet in average height when
planted, and shall conforn to the opacity and
other reguireDents within four (4) years afterplanting. Evergreen shrubs shall be at Leasttwo (2) feet in average height and two (2)
feet in dianeter.
(e) Vines. Vines shall be at least twelve (12)
inches high at planting, and are generally
used in conjunction with rralls or fences.
(f) crass or ground cover. Grass shall be planted
in species nornally grorrn as pernanent lawns,
and Bay be sodded, ptugged, sprigged, or
seededi except in srrales or other areas
subj ect to erosion, where sotid sod, erosion
reducing net, or suitabl.e nulch shall be used,
nurse-grass seed shall be sown for inmediateprotection until cornplete coverage otherwiseis achieved. Grass sod shall be clean and
free of weeds and noxious pests or diseases.
Ground cover such as organic naterial shall beplanted in such a manner as tq present afinished appearance and seventy-five (75)
percent of conplete coverage after tlro (2)
conplete grouing seasons, with a maximum offifteen (15) inches on center. In certain
cases, ground cover also may consist of rocks,pebbles, sand and sinilar approved naterials.
coMuENI: I will be honest to state that while this section
appears to be rrell thought out, that I do not clain to be a
landscape architect and quite possibly the standards ahould be
re-examined by an appropriate professional . The requirenentfor having minimum 5 foot height of evergreen trees and 2tinch caliper for deciduous trees is standard and uniforrnacross the Twin Citiesr conmuni,ties.'
Landscaping OrdinanceFebruary 26, L99t
Page 13
Section 2O-L232. I.Iaintenance and instaLlation.
co NT:
SUperSe(re
sect i on,
This section is fairly goodd by better language locatedSection 20-117.
but has been sinceunder the site plan
section 20-1233. Required opacity.
cor.{!.IENT: This is- _a perf ect exanple of an ordinance that isvirtua-Lly irnpossible-to understana, nuctr less enforce. Notonly does it differentiate betwe"r, SOt ana ZOt -op".ity .tdifferent times of the year, but it afso iequii.=-ti-.i or,.project forward four yeirs of gro,ing tine t6-unae.i.i" tt.analysis.
Section 2O-t234. Curbing.
COUUENT: This section ls fine nithout change.
Section 20-11,45. Landscaping and screening.
CoUUEN!: This section, which is locat_ed in the parking
::::l:I3:, resuires.that ar1 berths iroiorng areas) requirescreenLng. As such, it is a good concept Uut js p,r-oii"drafted. rt should also dealitt -""iJ5;, -;;r;.t:;^{
sinilar nanner.
Section 20-695, 2O-7L5, ZO-735, 2O-?55, 20-774 and 2O_815, parkingSetbacks and Buffer yards.
Col{MEN!: These sections are new and we beLieve ttren to begood fron a conceptual point of view. setbackJ f"i paifinglots are establ ished- us-ing. a perfornance type of standard,i.e. the better the.buffering, the smaller tir" "Etl."t. rnaddition, the creation ot. briiter yards arouna i"""rpitiur"Iand.uses, as illustrated in the Co:nprehensive plan, will bea rnajor long tern benefit for the ciit. _------ --5"' --r
Landscaping Ordi.nance
February 26, L99t
Page 14
Section 20-117. Maintenance of site and landscaping.
COUI{EHI : This was a section added by staff to the site plan
ordinance Iast year that more specifically requires the
rnaintenance of all landscaping in accordance with site plan
approvals.
Section 20-118. Retaining walls.
COUMENT:This section provides a necessary tie in with the
use of safe and effectivebuilding code to support the
retaining wal1s.
section zo-L]-g. LandscaPing financial guarantee required.
'couUrtlr: This section was instituted by staff last year to
nore specifically require the dePosit of a landscape Euaranteewith elch site plan. Prior to the drafting of this section,
no such requirenent existed and enforceDent was often
undertaken on a hit and rniss basiE.
Section 18-51. Tree renoval and conservation of vegetation.
col'oIENT: This section is the only reference to tree rernoval
and landscaping contained within the Subdivision ordinance.
As such, it is the only regulation that is applied to single
farnily developnent. staff belleves that this is highly
inadequate and needs to be addressed in a Dore significant
nanner.
SLN'!,IARY
Staff is seeking direction fron the Planning cornrrission on how to
proceed with developnent of a revised J.andscaping ordinance. your
comments on the rnaterial outlined above are essential if we are tobe able to prepare a code revision that adequately neets your
needs .
PI=nnin3 Comrnission
June 5,, 1991 - Page
Meet i n9
10
ame
Richard Ui ng
Emmings: Jo Ann, is there anything you prepared
Olsen:
thr ough
Emm i n3=
h,ants airitc it
I was just going to kind of
whar- we changed if you aant
to present?
take commenLs.9o
me
through orto do tha!.
Ckay', thatsteff repor!then. LadC?
tJa s
on
indicated pretty cIearIy.this? Alrisht. Okay, then
I can go
Is there anybody thatIet's just get right
Conrad: I don't have.
Emrnings: Oh, e>:cuse me. This is a public hearing and maybe, weclosei th.- p.-,rlic hearing and I know Dick, you uanted Lo addressdidn't >ou? MayL,e trow would be a good time. f'm sorry.
haven 'tthis
Richaro t'ring: r'rn Richard t^lins of 3491 shore Drive, Hinnewashta Heights.r ettendeci a seminar with staff some months ago and they discussed, weLlone of the panels at the end of this, if you recall, ue had someder,,eLcpers. one was a developer, it was a panel an; the panet members Herea grcup llrat did strip malls, a Vice president from a rarge merchandisestore, chain in the Tlrin cities area and the olher on" wai a developer ofsingle residential homes which had done work in chanhassen in the past.And as this debate got on and they were talking about ordinances andIandscaping and so on, the seminar had to do with parking lots and hourthey've got to change and just to pave over with impervious surface isn'tdoing the job anymore. But at any rate, one of the questions Ispecificallv asked r^ras would this deveroper, uho kept bragging about hisqualitv of homes in the development he uas putting in, he r.ras tarking abouthow they were taking soybeans and cornfields and turning them into thesewonderful housing projects, and r sort of said r.rell good for you. Theirentrvwavs were Landscaped rather elaborately, primarily for advertisingpurposes and then we brent beyond that and there uras nothing. r said wouldvou ever put in or ever put back. rt used to be a hardwood forest, wou]dyou ever put anything back if it wasn,t required? He said, ueII ygu ineanbevond the 1 FHA obligaLed tree? And he said no. r said, well hoi wouldwe ever encoL,rage that. He said trelr the cit)/ ordinance would have torequire it. r said that's fine with me and that's when r brought this upto PauI specifically so my comments I Hanted to make on the landscapeordinarrce is extrernely narrow:and I'1I apologize for that. f mean this ismuch broader and much more comprex but on page 12, under section 1g-61.Required landscaping for residential subdivisions. [.le now require 1 tree
PUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING AND SUBDIVIS]ON ORDINANCE A].IENDHENT TO AI.IEND SECTIONS REGARDING
LANDSCAPING AND TREE PRESERVATION REOUIREMENTS.
Public Present:
3481 Shore Orive
Planrii rrg Ccnnis=icn
June !,, 79?i - Page
Meet i ng
11
Richard t^ling: I guess I'm looking for a shaded appearance. PauI's
comrnents about the trees 6-7 months out of the year are. bare and these Pinetrees, or the coniferous trees if you will. That's the only trord f can
remember , provide more body throughout the year and f'm not opiosed to that
but the effect I'm looking for is the hardurood forest. The Bluff Creek
corrjdor if >'ou urill or the city boul.evards in Minneapolis where at one
Lime were heevily elnns and noh, they're Pretty much putting back maPles. I
suess J look et yarde that have a variety of trees and I find the yards
with the shade trees !o have more aesthetics personally and that's what I
ar.. L'. 1 =: -: r.:l +- 1.. F.a\'6rrent if you wilI, durirrg election tirne and went
thro-gl', !he s:bjivisiono that hid been cornfields and soybean fields, they
wer€ ta;ribl:- stsrk and no landscaping except the 1tree that was required
and th6t's a li+.tle 2 7/2 inch tree sitting there. I just feLt we could do -rnore. I f el.t that the new people coming into Chanhassen for a real minimal
impact- on their pocketbook could contribute a Iittle bit more and the
developer could be pushed to maybe to contribute a little bit more so I
specificallT requesLed th6t our l tree upped to 3 and the City Council was
f airl.y receptive. You knou we tossed numbers back and forth and I would
have liked 6 bu! that's imprictical so 3 u'as someHhat picked arbitrarilv. -But I would request your suPport on and what I'm asking for just as a
resident of the community, and I'm addressing you just as a resident, is
that r.re 9o r.rith the 3 trees. But I 'd Ii ke to see rather' than just the 3
trees Iisiec, r'd like to see specificallv 2 deciduous trees which is kind -of r,r gc.al. Faul has some good comments about why we u,ant to put in the
pine trees an jn niy discussions with him I don't disagree with that but I
would s:ecifically request this Section A(1) to require 2 deciduous lrees
anij tc prevent a develoPer from coming and just buying green ash or an
apFrovci tre. cr the;.,'1g also very cheap and he could come in and just
blankc-t e n:ichborhoo.C with green ash. I would like to require 3 trees but
specifically 2 be deciduous and out of that, I'd like one to stick with our -
namesahe of the Citv of chanhassen, the maPle Ieaf, or the maple tree and
the enrL,ler, b.ehind you again is the maple ]eaf so I don't think it's asking
Loo much thar- one of the deciduous trees be required Lo be maPle. The
other thir,g I'n, concerned about was, mv initial thoughts were that we try
to creil.i ri.cre cf a boulevard effect and lhat 2 of these trees be in the
front- IarC. : think this is someHhal of a difficult question. I don't
knorr if I r.rcirLd even put that because many PeoPIe want tight control of
their .iarrdscatring as they buy lhese homes. But if I was to have mv choice
f u.rould lequire 2 of the trees be placed in the front yard and then 1 in
the back )'ard, if it's even Practical to determine a Placement. So I would -
Iike to bring up at a future time the aPPointment of a shade tree
commitLee. Other comrnunities do have lhis and one in Particular has been
quite successful to the point urhere they're now even getting money from the -City Courrcil to go out and buy trees to specifically place trees in certain
areas in the city but that's a little bit ahead of the game at his poinL so
my only comments tonight were, I'd jusL ]ike your consideration and suPPort
on A(1). I'd like to see the 3 trees maintained and f'd ]ike to see a
minimum of 2 Ceciduous and I think the locations of those trees are worthy
of some discussion.
Batzli: uJh>' do you want 2 deciduous as opposed to coniferous?
Plannin;,Ccr.:::ission
i9i1 - F^.'eJUNE
Meet i ng
72
ng h€r'e. I thj.nk that f or the summer shade and for u.;hatohplish for the clean air and the environment., there rraybe a little more the goal I'm after. I.guess I'nr ..
the hardwood forest and the reforestation of the hardr^roodI am the pine trees but that's certainl,y a reasonabletaking and I'd be happy r.rith anything r.le got.
r^rou l.: b:
I ' ri !- :' ;'.i. n
ciec i d: c l-,:r
tryi n-: toforesl mcposition
Batz I i :
su99e9:'9oi ng t
s -rftrorti
t rees a
r-e than
Paul is
tlhen y
i ng t he ',-o te bac
ou're talking about establishing the boulevard,you put these in the right-of-way of the roadk off the street 2O feet?
Richard !ing: I think the trees are going to be part of a person,spurchese. 'ihev're going to be on their plrsonaL property and anothercouncilnan pointed out, he wourd r^rant total contror or "[.ie they wourd goanci the c,r'ciinance allowe that. rt gives them a year r.,ith-clrtif icaLes topurchsse r.rh:'. tre€s they want and put them where tfrey r^rant. I guess ifI hai a chcice, r woulci har,re the ordinance state that 2 of the trees *ouldbe in th-, f ro.', po:-f,iorr of the house. Houever you urant to def ine thai.uhe tl-,€: il ste.teo' in the middre of house front o; i;;; ii.-.orn.r" of thehous: out'. The Dt.lR has recommendations for planting ii..=-to best suit thehouc: i;r r'ri nLer and summer in terms of the shade anJ ir,.ii ,." and r thinkthe;' 1;".r i- l-r', Lreetern side and the southwest .orn.i ii-i'rlr.moer thatarticle. PLrt I'm not rea.l knowledgeable on that so I don't, ttrat,s just myo!'r.-: trerscrl::l crinion. r'c like to see more trees in the front v.rJ io-- 'cr€at. e. .l.ittIe bit more of a shaded boulevard effect
Emrnings: Thanks Dick. There are no other members of the publ.ic here. fsthere a n,ot jon to close the public hearing?
are you
there are is
hearing. All voted inwas closed.
the subject that Dick waswith Dick and felt thatI felt , boulevard trees.
Erhart moved, Batzli seconded to close the publicfavor and the motion carried- The public hearing
Erhart: Okey, well why don't we just start h,ithon. Th€ l.st tinre I :-emernber, I somewhat aglreedthe tr':es that uJe're going to require should be,
Emmings; tJhen you say boulevard, what do you mean?
Erhert: r mean deciduous trees uith the intent at maturity they trirl hangover the street and provide essentially both a scenic and Lhe shade for tf,epublic area of the subdivj.sion which is the street and sidewalk, if there'sa sider^reL k. On the flip side of that is I have a hard time going in andessentiallv requiring a deveroper to go in and do uhat r consider thepersonal landscaping of a lot which is putting in the evergreens and thestuff in the back vard and then bushes around the house. i m"arl that,ssomething that's left up to the individua. homeowner. Those are not publicareas of the lot. That's an individual :: f agree and I would even 3uggestto carrv it cr,e step further saying that .-.I the trees that are required,and if 3's Lhe right number, that,s fine. They aII be deciduous and thatthev should be somehow defined to be planted somewhere along in thevicinit> of the street. so that they're planted for the intended purpose ofboulevard '.rees. so rd go one step further. The other thing is r agree
may have deleted Lhat section.Krauss: I think
lrn-i:::
ent:-"1. i-lat -,. n.-.re than.:c tre€ shc,uld be a green ash. A green asr,r.rhil:::':: vc:-y culable tree, it's not on the highest quality tree. Itgre€r: Jp la+-. and lc'ses jt's leaves early and doesn'! have much color. lthink requiring l tree to be a maple makes sense. I suggest that maybe
r.rhat we c,ught to do is, jf we want to pursue this is to Provide a Iist of
apprcvej L:'ees and put some control on what they should be. One of thc-
notes I hacj here, soflrewhere in my notes here is that we only require
deciduous tree to meet a 15 foot ultimate heishL. To me a 15 foot ultimate -
height is not a tree- That's a bush or a shurb and so, I mean they cogld-put in Canadian Red Cherry in there which is a tree....more than 15 feet.
That's nct a bou.levard tree so there's something uJrong here I think
ui3
:c:'s see I've got
onc of those
it mar ked .
Iandscaping slandards. On Page 10?
think there's also a concern though. There's a
e\/er grol.l more than 3 or 4 inches that are kind
Erhart: F,age 9. l-act s.errtence. Deciduous trees sha]I be species having
aIi a jti:'::. r,aLure crown sPread of greater than. Oh, that's a cror'rn spread.
Otra;, I :::re..d th:.'.. I ririsread that, I take that back. So. anyurav, goin9 -becl: i: t 1..?: one, a3:in it's like Dick states. It's kind of a Personal
thing. That's what I see and it's like when you Put trees in the back
yard, i'-': 9:t:ing ir:to someone's own Personal taste for landscaping. f
like'. I'.e 3 '.re€-e. I have a question in that Paragraph though. Are He a
I::'-I-, ir:oi-:i:'.-.ni when uJe say, if you put in lhese 3 trees they have to
be ? 1.,'? j nc-l', c al iper yet to use an existing tree it has to be 5 inch
calip::. Ti':: Cr=en't seern righ!. To qualifv not to have to put in a neu, -tree, )-.ur c> je'.ing tree has to be 5 inch caliper. That doesn't seem right
to m.:. ft saer. s to rne if there's a 2l/2 inch tree that meets the
crdina;ic tha','s existing, then that ought !o qualifv as one of the trees.
olse:i; I thirk the reason r^re're doing that is to be consistent because
throughc,.rt the ordinance we're saying that anything that large with a 5
inch celipc:- can't, r^rouLd be considered clear cutting and you need to
repl.ace j! if you do have to.cut it down. I think we're just trying to be.
Krauss: It trips the tree preservation requirements over that width.
Richard l,Ling: It may not be transplantable either. A 2 l/2 inch tree can
be transplantei easily and grows fast. A 6 inch would take a tandem truck.
Erhart: I understand that. I'm saying, .Iet's say you have a 5 inch tr€ethat's on the boulevard. Let's say a 3 inch tree is on a boulevard at just
exactly where you would plant one of these 2 1/2 inch trees anyeay. tlhy
wouLdn't tha+- qualify as one of those trees? To me it just doesn't seemfair. If it's an existing tree that's got...
Krauss: Ith=t don't
lot of treesof junk.
Erhert-: Oh, okay. Alright, Iet's say lhat it's a 3 inch tree.
PJ.e r.ni r,; Cc;:iis=ion HeetingJure 5, l.';:1 - Fig€ 13
Heet i ng
74- Pa 9e
aFFr- oved'-a gto i.litl:.;,3i]1 Iis"..
Erha:t: I 'r,t- got
One of ther, , that
a lot of thinss soucrd there in th6t don't try
paragraph
all of them here.
same page it ea>.s -
tc a nswer
1 on that
Emr,i r,9:
Far.-graph 1. It
Pa ge?
r€ on page 1.2. Section 18-61 in the subdivision ordinance.:ir,.3 there. tJhere it says 5 inches, is that supposed to betated in the following page? -Just look at that Jo Ann_
Er hart :
Jus: f r:or ag it
Erha:t:
and.
t-Ja-
and
olsen: tJhere are you at nouJ?
would be that twelfLh line down where you use
ano A feeL above the ground?Cl:: r :
Erh::'t: P..ause on the following page you
i rrc l,e s
ASches
the t"rord or I !hink.
Krauss
use
theneasured 4 feet above gr ou nd.
Erha:.t' l.:.-,1l, en),!.Jay. DetaiIs. The last sentence on that paragraF\h saysa r',.r:i'- e : :':ll b: a=;lied for each exisling tree against each required treeon, l a!e:. t.h.i's okay. I guess noH as I read that, that,s clear. Let'ss..:. a.: -::: as !.re're on the subdivision ordinance. I talked to you todayeLto(r: i-'',i: ,ri. th" Fi.',one Pau.l. and Lhat is, utility companies coming in andr th:us:t )'gur r'rc,rd today was perfect. Using Agent orange to essentiallycle:l- :'-.:, '::' tr=ir po:rer lines. r had my personal expeiiences urith thai.anC i',': r,e :,-- up.etting and I know .^,e as a City have had one lrpeii"nce-orton l'1ir-,r:.:,.rs.ht; ouL there. r'11 tell you, r read this and it telrs me thatthe;' ca:' 't come in and do that. The probrem is, r donii-tirinr they r.rouldagre: t --, Lha',. r guess rd Iike to get the other commissioners feelingsab-out thie. r think we ought to, you know this is not New Gern:any andsom..thing out next to a cornfield urhere there's box elders growing up intotheir lincs. r mean the trees that they Agent orange mine. r plantedthose trees. Those uere ash and sugar maple and a variety of trees andthey came along with their big guns and trucks and boom. They were gone,
anC they Eeren't underneath the power line either
Ahrens: l.lho did that?
Erhart: Hinnesota vatlev Power. Minnesota Varley Electric. And of courseI calleC the guy and he pulls out his easement and says hey man, f 've got40 fee'! and f can do anything I erant to. Don't bug me- Those treesweren't boLhering his lines. r was doing some reforestation and r guess,vou know r r-rncerstand. They have a right, we have to rnaintairi the linesbut trhet t-hev did uias nonsense. The lines u,ere so feet up in the air andthe trees were 3 feet high and they,re ZO feet off to the side. Andaeain, I reac' this and it appears to me that they have to come in and geta, Fer the text, a pernit to do this or they have to do somelhing. Do youread i.'- that r,:ay?
PIanriing Comnission
June 5, 1991 - Page
Meet i ng
15
Kraus:: iielI, I'd like to interpret it that uay. It,s beerr my experience
over- tire yea: s Ll-rat highway com-panies, railroads and the University ofMinneeota are not part of this earth. They're kind of forces ontothemselves and managed differently. Ue can ask Roger if there's something
r^,e can dc, with that but when you get into a State approved franchise
agreemenr-s that give them certain authorities, usually they're beyond ourcontrol . Hohrever, we do make them get permit approval to constructbuildings and sub-stations and those kinds of thines.
Emmings: But a guy ulho has an easement on my property doesn't have rightsin excess of uhat I have on my own broperty and I b,ouldn't be allowed to dothis under this ordinance would I?
Krauss,: AII I can say is.
Emmings: This is worst than clear cutting.
Olsen: Anci we had them plant other trees. Revegetate as I recall.
Erhart; LJell you know, I read this and it says no clear cutting in wooded
areas shall be permitted except as approved in Lhe subdivision, planned
unit development or site plan application. Item (e) it says tree removal
shall not bc permitled under subdivision, planned unit development or siteplan revjew shell not be allowed h,ithout the approval of a.tree removalplan by the Citv Council. I mean that covers it.
Emmings: You know Joan, you do real estate stuff and a Iandowner can'tgrant, grants an easement to the power company to maintain their Iines buthe can't give lhem more rights than he himself has can he? A grantor of an
easeme nt?
Ahrens: No, but most of the time the easements allow power companies to douhatever they Hant to that land that's within the confines of the easementto enable them to carry on Hhatever business they're entitled to do on thateasement. t^lhether it means clear cutting trees or uthatever. They cangenerally, the easement a.llous them Lo do that.
Conrad: The Landowner can do it.
Krauss: Yeah. There's nothing in our tree preservation section, as I read -it, that precludes a homeouner from chopping dohrn a tree.
Emmings: l.lo. And I'd be against it if there were. tle're talking here
maybe about clear cutting though and we do have restrictions against that,
don't we?
Krauss: Theoretically we do. I believe Jo Ann was once involved in a
situaLion r,Lhere a homeowner near, I think it was Lake Riley did clear cut.
AfLer tl,e fact clear cutting of property and we did. pursue that.
Emmings: But if the Iandowner couldn't do it and he's the grantor of the
eaeement, can the person holdins the easement still do it?
PIanni ng Conmission
June 5, !9.?1 - Page
Meet i ng
lb
Emmi n93 : ke I I me >,be .
Erhart: !.that I 'm driving at.
Emmings: And maybe not.
conrad: uhv not? Because this is not covering what an individuar can do.
Emmings: tJell I don,t know.
Olsen: t^re do have a Liee reriovalfact this was taken sLarting at Iremoval section which is back atgeneral tree removal section.
section that goes for everything. Inthink (b) on down is actualLy the treethe sLart. On page 5 so ue do have a
clear cutting of woodland areas shall bea subdivision, planned unit development orpretty br oad .
no
s
Batzli: \'e6h but this is for a, isn't this a subdivision section?
Olsen; .or, page 5 we have the general tree removal regulations. tJesame thing urrder subdivision and under the zoning ordinance. t,re'vesubdiviciorr orciinance and the zoning ordinance,
Emmings: It says over here,permitte'J ex.ept as approvedsi Le F,lan epplication. That'
Emmi.ngs: tie're kind of steppingbut does thet apply to me on myin a subCivision?
your toes here a littleor does this only apply
Put
90t
the
the
onlot bi! here Timto a devel oper
Olsen: The general tr eethe city with everyone.
removal , I apply that. 1.,e. apply that throughout
Krauss: Lre do but r wourdn't r.,ant to stand here and tell you thatconclusively that uJe prevent clear cutting on lots. Homeowners don,t knowthe requirerrents. t^te don't know that they're out there cutting. There'sno obligaLion that they come ask.
Ahrens: PIus public utilities, they,re.
The City of Chanhassen doesn,t have to goevery time they move dirt around.
They're guasi -gover nmenta I uni ts.in and ask for a grading permit
Krauss: And power companies I believe alsodomain and they didn't buy these easements
Ahrens: That's right.
conrad: okay, I'm really confused.
Ahrens: I wouldn't urant to take that court
Erhart: This easement was purjchased.
have the right ofnecessarily. They
emi nent
took them.
I'II teII you.
Planni;'rg
June 5,
Commi ss i on
19<i1 - tr6ge
l.leet i n9
t7
Ccn:ao: 4.. l. :', this Iandscape. Tree removal..
not appl)' to sing]e family detached resi.dences.
ft says this Article does
Krauss: You've got to separate the two. There are tbro ordinances in thispacket. One is the site plan review ordinance, which you're looking at on
page 2 and that does not affect single family homes by ordinance. Siteplan review doesn't. The one that does affect single family homes is the
one at the end which goes into the subdivision section.
Conrad: But that's the one.'
Krauss,: That is newThat's a good poi nt .
subdivisions that are subject to that requirement,
Emmjngs: Except they do cross reference each other because down here it
says, under (e) on the bottom of page 13 it savs tree removal plans shall
include the content requiremenls dictated in Section 20-7!77 so some of the
provisions are the same. They do reference each other but lhey're not.
conrad: Eut I €iuess I find no security in that fact. I guess the problem
thaL Tim is bringing up, I see no security in thinkins that the Power
compan),. I think it'd be foolish to think that the Pob,er comPan), wouldn't
come in and thst we have any kind of control over it.
Erhert: I'!,e gct arr idea. Here's my idea. Hy idea is to take and urrite
the F,:irer compenies a letter saying that it's our intent to regulate clear
cutting and spraying, clear cutting either by ax or by chainsaw or by
spra;'ing. Here's a copy of a new ordinance that we're discussing right now -in a put,I jc heering that nill cover that ordinance and r.rhat we're trying to
do is not prevent you from clear cutting ulhere required but to reQuire you
to 6Fpl7 for a permit just like everybody else. And we invite you to
respond to this, Let's get the thing aired because I'd like to hear their 'I gue3s I'd ]ike to hear r.lhere their views are. Notr maybe there's some
comtrromise uje can come to that we can all be haPpy and get what ure qant. I
hope you're buying into what I'd like to see but I'd like to see them come
in anC if they lant to do clear cutting..in uhatever form they use, they get
a permit just Jike everybody else. The place to start is just to
communicate that intent and draut them in. Now it might be surprising the
outcome but I don't think we're going to accomplish anything just bXputting out the ordinance urithout getting them involved in the process.
Emmings: Maybe even the step before that h,e've got to check ulith Roger and -
see if ule've got any leverage to bring these people, somehour I think do you
ultimately urant to go a step beyond that and have them make sure thatthey're not just 9oin9 out and killing everything in a certain swath buLdoins this with some kind of a reasonable approach to mdet their ends?
Erhartr I want make sure that there's a reasonable approach. If tre can do -trimnring. If we can accomplish as much with trimming and surely sometimesyou're gcing to have to do some clear cutting. f'm sure there's times it's
appropriate to spray. Risht now it's not reasonable. I think ure all hope
ue aII... And I think just the fact that they would know that He're
PIanni ng Commission
June 5, 1991 - Page
Meet i n9
18
Ahrens: t^tell yeah, Bis, mature, beautiful trees.sorts of real. nice trees. I would have gone acrossthem. Put tl-,em in my yard. The City did that. Itproperty that Lundsren Brothers urants to develop on?out irr front that says the ponderosa.
Krauss: OrLenbIat.
Bj.rch and pine and aIIthe street and saved
was on the, what's theThey have a big sign
l^le 've f ound our guys outYou try and communicatethis particular issue on
Ahrens: Ortenblat property.
Krausr.: I dorr't knour. tJe're not pure inon backhoes and we,ve gone out and stoppedson;e Lei,eL of sensitivity to them _ I don'this one but I wouldn't be surprised.
lhis.
them.t know
Emmings: Sensitivity and chainsaws don,t usually go together.
Conrad: One real good example is !,hat we talk ebout on the southeastcorner of f1innewashta and the power company h,ent down. r know r^rhen TimFoster uas in here and thev iust took a, r couldn't berieve the path thatthey carved. It uJas just incredible.
Emmings: tjas it 40 feet or SO feet?
Conr6d: It was mammouth. It's just hard to bel,ieve.
Krauss: It uras so largeAnd it led us to believe
Crimson Bay.
it made a roadthat you coul.d
where there never used to be
nour run a road down the hill one .
to
Conrad: But anyway,any 9l immer of, thisordinance, This is ado wiLh r.rhaL somebody
I still don't undergl-:nd why Tim you feel that there'sis in the back 18-61. This is a subdivisionsubdivision amendment ordinance. It has nothing todoes on your property.
f,atchi '.,3 and Ne're int€rested. Right today, I don,t think, and IikeMinnesc:: VaIlei- Electric. They're in New prague and LeSuere I think it.is- Thev're i:-, the frame of mind that this is just like Lesueie iro yo"expect to drive along the country road and spray box elders from yourtruck. That's just the way it,s done and I just think we've got tocommunicate that's not the uray you do it in Chanhassen.
(There was a tape change at this point. )
Ahrens: Yes they do. They live right across the street from me. They cut'a huge area of trees doun. rt h,as quite a r,arge area. They cut somereally nice trees down because they thoughL th6y misht put-some kind ofpiPe in the road but they changed iheir minds so aII these irees lrere cutdown and they just walked away from it. fnis frappen.J"i".t-=r*."r.
Erhart: Bi9 trees?
P).annin9 Ccrnr i. ss i o n
June 5, 1991 - Page
t1eet i ng
!9
t, then I suggest that we change it or have 6nothermail them .
this doesn't, this would not be applied
Erhar'-:
ordinan:e
Erhart:
agai nst
7r i t i sn '
!,i a ca n
You agree with Ladd that
evist ! n9 subdivisions?
sf
Ol.sen: I was going to say, this tree preservation section, both the onethat's in the subdivision and the one that's under the general
requirements, u,,e are going to be changing. I had a note to that in herebut that's out. But ue're working with the DNR Foreslry Department. Idon't knc,w if you saw that memo. tJe're getting the mosaic this Friday andthey're geLting, they've mapped all the trees in the City and they're
.working with us as a piLot pr.oject,i As part of that r.re're going to be'
amending our ordinance. Our tree preservation ordinance ulorking ulith them
with ref orestat-ion. tlith what the City is. l.Jith r.rhat thev'vi: lost and
ulhat we need to do but as a part of that we can, tle're going to be drafting
a whole nei.r section. This whole new section and then as Part of that we
can look at doing existing lots and single family Iots and existing
commerc,ial lots and things Iike that,
Emminge: Yes ;.,6tl agree or?
Olsen: J a!:ee it doesn't.
Ahreno: I think we should ask Roger.
Emmirrgs: !'.lur,.ber one we ask Roger and number two, maybe that's Part of a
separate ordinance in addition to what ure've got in front of us.
Kreuss: As Jo Ann points out, there's been a lot of ground work. Jo Ann's
been spending a Iot of lime uith the DNR. I think you're atlare that we're
a special project for them. They're using us as an experiment in forestry.
tle felt r.Je were clearly under pressure to get betLer landscaping standards
up and runnins now. Much the same reason as ue did the PUD ordinance lasttime bu! in discussins this Jo Ann and I didn't know, I mean r^re clearly hadnot clapped out a new and improved tree preservation section so rather thankind of slapping something together, ue said let's just roII over urhat we
have nor.r and as Jo Ann said, there was a note that was dropped out of herethat said we will be proposing significant modifications to )zou I wouldguess r^rithin the next few, up to 5 months from now.
Olsen: Yeah.
Krauss: It's an experimental program. It's a' littleit's going to develop but they are presenting us withinformation on Friday and they do have somebody who's
Ann on developing a new ordinance.
tough to
Lhe basegoing to
knour how
mapp i ng
wor k with Jo
Erhart: LJeI I tl'er' urould, alright let's 9o this way. tjould you agree it's
time to h,ring Lhe power companies into this discussion and let our
intentjons known so hre get a Productive?
Plarrn j ng Carnmission
Jurre 5, 1991 - fage
l'1€ et i ng
20
Er',ari n:': Ltell I guess r had proposed that Ne concentrate on Hhat's here.thinL ii'= an impc.tanL issue that we should check r.rith Roger and see ifdo h=,.,e, ui,at we need to get a handle on this and maybe propose, Iet himPropose or you could draft an ordinance br another part of our Iandscapeordjnance that wor. ld address how utility companies maintain theirright--of-way for 'heir easements for their power lines. Okay.
I
we
Erhert; I'r.,e got some more here. On paragraph 4 there on page 13. Under(d)(4)- r guess d sav' during the tree iemoval process, ir".. shalr betrimmed and if requ.ired, removed as to prevent blocking oi public rights-of-way and interferring urith overhead utility lines. ieL's try to make itas restrlctit,e as possible. Then on item 5 agai.n, removal of diseased anJdama,oeci trees. I don't know. A guy goes up and puLs one hachet in thetree and says, oh. It's damaged. Cuts it off. Maybe we ought to changethe r^ror-dins a Iittle bit to make it a little bit, tire inteniion is if i[can't be sa\,ed cr something like that. That one is smal]. i tninx number4,7'd like to see that changed if nobody has any objection.- Let,s startin the be.gi n;ring of the. I bet you all thought yo, ,ir. soing to get out ofhere at 8:30. In the Iandscaping ordinance. Let,s 9o to pale number 6.Dealins uri+-h fences and walIs. Again, in general r pe=onatti think thatthe r,ralle re hsve in town, wood ulalls we hive in town suck.-'
Petzli: Tel I hc,w you really feel .
Erhsrt: Every one of them that I can think of is falting down. It,sugljer than if j.t wouldn,t be there at al],I h,ould ventJre to say in somecases en. I really have to question whether ure really encourage uroodenfences. lf re are, boy get this thing nailed down more than this. Becausetr'ro of the things that strike me. one is that something trrat's 90in9 tokeep ther', from ]eaning over after 5 years or faster. -iJine-a"ayed arl orrerthe place anci the second thing is that r think if =oruon.;I going to usewaLls or fences for buffers, that we ought to require intermittentlandscapin3 o;: the public side of those walls. an example *oufa be like 35S,oing do!.rntown where every 1OO feet you've got a planting oi =or.evergreens and things to break up this r.la l. l. I think a waII's ugly. Jreally do. !,Jooden walls particularly after a few yeari gei",rrify ,sfv.And reinforcements and to require additional landscaping adjacent to thewall' I think ought to be required if that's going to oe useo as a screen.
Krauss: r d--'n't think we have a problem with it being masonary. That,spretty rruch, I mean uhen h,e say architecturall)z harmonious, that'stvpical. Iv what. rf we're talking about screen structures rike HarkeLsquare where thev wanted to have Lhe outdoor storage for Laun and Sports.mean He made them do a masonary wall that r^ras identical to the rear waIIthe bujlding.
I
of
Erhart: Let me pin this down...areas like in the industrial park I 'm tal kins
down there -
Kr auss The dock p1ace.
about enclosures for par ki ng
Planni n3 Comn,ission
June 5,, 7991 - F'age
Hee I i ng
1
Er.hir:: 'l'..= c:ck place. The one up here between the cement factory, anclthe Hanu-= t.uiI;ing. That would meet the ordinance.
OI sen :
have to
ErhaYt:
Batzli:
L]e cen edd that if they use retaining walls or fences that they
be screened. I mean landscaped,
9c'rre kinC of landscaping.
For example the lumber company that put up the wooden fence,
Olsen: t.te
Batzli: It
required them to screen, fandscape.
wculd have to be landscaped around.
Krauss: In fact that's an examPle of a fairly well maintained wooden fence
but it's probably the excePtion to the rule.
Erhart; As jong as that ouner's there and profitable it ui]l be
maintain€C. I have a question on Page 8, ParagraPh 5 where we say the
treed area.l r"itl^'in parking lots will be landscaPed with shurbs or ground
cover. Does ground cover include rocks or what is ground cover in this
or di na nc e?
Olsen: l^t.,. It has to be, I r,louldn't corrsider ground cover rocks.
l(rau:l : Ll., cc-':: j def i ne it .
Erl'art: A ccir Ic,t parking lot is rocks.
Kralrsr: No, I think we mean things ]ike Enslish Ivy and Ground Vetch and
th6t kind of gLuff.
Olsen: lle'1. I see if that's defined though.
Erhart: r clon't know, you may urant to look at design. The. other thing on
page 9. I think we discussed this the last time but item 1. t^lalls should
be constructed of natural stone, brick or artificial materials.
Krauss: I tSought we had gotten at that. So what we've. done is, on the
landscaping naterials, we have refined what you were getting at on page 7to state that j.t musl be masonary. Oh, I'm sorry.
Olsen: No, fences must be wood.
Krauss: [,J e need to def ine r^lhat's a urall. and ulhaL's a fence. A screenwa]I.
O.lsen: And then add that they always have to be landscaped.
Erhart: oka/, then on page 9 there. Did He set the Iast time thisartificial rnater jals jn paragraph l there it says walls shall be
PLanni ng Corrrise ion
June 9, 1991 - Page
Heet i n9))
cc,n9+-rLi +!e--l of iatural
aryb-r.r t hangi n! at al I
stone, brick,or is it just artificial meter i a Is.
mb?
Does that leave
Olsen:
Conrad:
Olsen:
ConraC:
ErhaY!:
a fe',rce
ArLificial
ria yt\e?
Batzl i : Uhere r^rere you? I 'm SOrry. page 9
Conrad: t^,hat is, yeah r.rhat's artif icial?
paragraph 1 under.
be constructed of natura Iand if it turns out that someparticular project, He can
It'e somthing that's aluays been there.
It's not biojegradeable.
Plastic?
I ilo nl--+ i^,
Krausg: Actuallv you hesitate to say that but noul there's companies thatare F\r-ocessing recycled plastic into some pretty nice, heavy duty fencing.Screen fencing that,s supposed to be much more durable than'wood.
OLseir; l'1a.r-be r^J e
consi st ent wi th
materials designed for the purpose of use in a ualI or
s.houLdn't be so specific and just say it has to bethe building material Iike r,re did the. . .
e.lready in here isn't it?
the front.
the same section. t^,ell, it's jusl.one section down.
they come in with something outrageous, can,t you deny
Batzl i : That's
Olsen: It'e in
Batzli: It's In
if
Krauss: [^re ] I you do have a I ittle bit ofview. tJe do not attempt nor do we thinkexplicit in a site plan review. There isyou ujant to encourage some creativity onreview it on yours.
Emmings: t]hy don't we just say r.lalls shal.lstone, brick or other appropriale materialsartificial material is appropriate for someapprove it.
Erhart: That's all I have.
Emmings: That wasn,t too bad. Ladd?
discretion. This is a site plan
we should be terribly, completelyan art to doing these things andtheir part and some flexibility to
and walls.
Lhat a lot
what we 're
Conrad: f agree with a lot oi Tim's comments relaLing to fencesThe Iandscaping to break up fences and those. I realiy believeof things that we'r,e required can make it look ug]y, ,gfiui-th.n
Ahrens: tJe I Ithat 6 nyway?
Pla nni ng Commission
June !,, 19c1 - F'age
Heet i n9
23
tr; j:-.j '-. c( -{i ui. J'm not cont,inced that a fence and a wall, is asoluLicn. I Lhink there's some 'real natural ways to solve some of our lessattractive cornmercial enterprises. I guess I don't have a solution tothaL. In facL, I thought about it. Should we force people. I couldn't
come utr with a different solution than what's recommended in the staffrepori so I'm 9oin9 to go right beyond that, other than the fact that on
Iong tyF'e of walls or fences, I think we need the landscaping to break that
up. on page 8. tJhere did those standards come from? They. kind of make
sens€ but dici we pull those from?
Olsen: The old one.
Conrad: And that rneans we believe that they're r ight?
urell. tle usually get Pretty goodOlsen: They,'ve been working reallr
lookino par hing lots from that.
ConlaC: Okay, So that came from here. I'lI leave that.
Land:c.:pins n,aLerial.s under Section 20-1183, Paragraph 1.
strip:. H.:\'e r,re seen urood striPS Lhat are attractive?
Pa9e
-^: !
Ahren"; I thinl., they're uglier than chainlink.
OIs:r: 1,iq.'ve tal.ke.j abouL that before. They're real ugIy.
conrad: 9o basically what we've done is screen something that's uglv lith
somethin3 tl'r.:t's uglier . I have a Problen with that. Nor., somebodv could
tell n'e that there are attractive wood striPs and fencing but I'm just,
again 1';n no'. convinced that yeah, I guess I'd like to see that out unless.
Krau.s: Yc)u kncw where the problem comes abou! is that when you have
somebodlr Iike Redmond uhen they were looking to build their new facilitv.
They ha.,e a conrpound of active area tha! includes, I don't knor.r, 15-20
acres. Nor.J on their plans, and they have security concerns. On their
F.lens, r.Ll-rich never went anyr.rhere but what we got them to do was to use
wrought iron fencing along the street b<lulevard but internally thev wanted
to 9o h,ith chainlink for cost and for security you know because you can put
the Iittle pokey things up on the chainlink and they didn't particularly
want to do a wood fence that you could just rip apart or.climb over.
Olsen: It r.ras inside and it was screened.
Krauss: Yeah, it !.ras a concealed location.
olsen: l'laybe just say per imeter f ences?
OnIt
9 u nder
r^lood
Krauss: It ldasn't on a public right-of-way. It was an internal area ifI recall.
Conred: Lo when you say interior, their interior fences, ,.'.L not on theside yar d?
Fl ann! nq Commission
Jurre 5, 19c..1 - F'e9e
Meeti ng
24
tr"-r.:.: I:.,:-:,:-
Kraugg: -c.c'lirewhere
;;:aning?
t,lithin their site.
Erhar!: That,s a good question.
fenceg beturee n property lines?
r i 9 ht*of- wa ys .
Are we going to requireI guess. . .thinkj.ng of the
Iandscaping of
ones a] ong public
Conrad: Yeah, that's what I'm thinki.ng.
Krauss: t^:e]I, Iet's Iook at one where r don,t think it .,as done which isthe little s.hopp.ing center right over here. rn" "air-in;t-r;= built backthere r'rhich has been a real contentious item for. i"t -"i -l,"meowner
s . rdon't t,el jel,e uLe landscaped behind it or.the detreloper Iandscaped behindit.
Ol.sen: Yeah we did.
Krauss:
Olse;: tl= adceC a ]ot.
very c lc:
T!-,:t's a f ence that's in closei to a single family home.
proyimity. It's a screen fence in
a resu-lt of, because there uas a lot of concern about that.
Kraugs
Erhart:
reqr,rire
Emm i ngs :
Pr oPer Ly
Kraus3: tj: l.) even if they weren't existing.PresumFtion that if you,re the applicant who'suse, ),oL! h. \/e an oh,ligation to screen existingu3es or, the facility. It,s the cost of doins
Emrni ngs: Ncr..r urhaL are you going to do? tJe,refence has to b.e covered with plant materials sogroxing ivy on it or somelhing like that? Some
AnC t he), r"rer e ex isti ng whenthat. . .for special reasons.
Krauss: Yeah, probably.
Emmi ngs: You can,t putof it. You can'1 plant
they came in r.rith that. . .so we could
I think there's alurays t.heProposing a higher i ntensityor propose lower intensitydevelopment in the city.
talking about chainlinkyou're talking about likevi ne?
of it.
PeoPIe are going to
Krauss: Or putting a row of coniferous trees in front
Emmings: tJell but anybody uho wants to put it up, somet",ant to put it up on their properLy line.
Krauss: This doesn,t affect homeowners.
No.
line?
But won't there be businesses that u,ant to put it up on the
it up on the property line and screen the outsideyour trees on somebody else's property.
P I a n n i rr.: C omr,ri. s: i o n
June 5, 1991 - Fage
Meei i ng
E3::;.:
Emni ngs: F'r i rrce has t hem
could C.: vines.
Kraussi /ino keep in rnind, while a fence can 9o on next to a propertv line,there's still requirecj setbacks for parking and buildings and everything
else so there invariably js a green strip there and if their concern is
securit:', they can always move that fence back within that setback area.
Put +.heir landscaping on the outside and not really lose anything in the
proce=.:.
'Emmi ngs: Okay.
Olsen: thould r.Je say that chainlink
security ree:on=? f mean do ue want
fences are only allowed if for
to just make that ah excePtion?
Ernmi ng-.: Ar,J they 'l I just say it's
problen;s r.:ith chainlink fences?
for security. Does anybody have
Ahrena: I don't think they're so bad. I mean there are black ones nour
th=t are kind c.f nice.
around his property and around this
a public right-of-way it should be
out up here.
Iandscaped fErhart : Ag:ir, if it's on
think rea.Lly trel ] .
ccxrad: Eut Ie*.'s tall' at'out seParating tI,Jo businesses. Do uJe care if
there's a chainl j.rrk fence between two businesses? Don't you?
Erhart: lf you're talking about two comlrercial type, retail?
ConraC: Tr,lo commercial. Indus!riaI/commercial.
Emmings: You're talking about down in the industrial park?
Conrad: Ri9ht.
Krauss: Don't we have a chainlink fence around our maintenance building?
OIsen: Pr obab I y
Batzli: Yeah, there is one doun there.
Conradr And it's a sood rationale for security reasons to do that.
They're ugly.
Batzli: Chainlink around lhat substation I think. Doun south. tlith a lot
of pointy thinss on top I think.
Kraus3: I don't think we just uJant to say for security reasoDs because
that puts it in the context of do you reallv want this for security or is
there ;.rcther reason? To define the motives of who's ever proPosing it.
Plsn
June
ni r,3
E
Comnis:ior
I ?91 - Pa ge
l',.3.- t i ng
2f,
Ahre:-r:,:
ConreC;
Ahren=:
Batz I i:
Ahrens:
TFa'-, -:r l-.6
I think . re
oh, I think
You do?
,jrn':- thi nk they're .always ugly.
n_l.ce -
one around Prince's place looks fine.
that one sticks out.
Batzli: It's such a narrouJthoushl it just looked like
somet h i n9 .
around that bui I di ng.
keep the vandle hordes
enc I osur etrying to I alwaysout or
Erhart: It's nct normal tobuildins. Houlever, if you
reeuirir,gr then ),ou have tothe er:cEpt-ion, then I gl.ess
brea ki ng it ur,.
put a chainlink fence around your commercialwant to I guess is there any problem inbreak it up r.Jith some landscaping? If that'sit urould seem to me reasonable to require
ConraCi
colorec?to pL, r sue
f,o yoLt want, does jt make sense to force the chainlinkA:-.- )'ou com.fortable with the galvanized chainlink? Ithjs too far. I don't have answers on this. I realiy
tobeadon't wantdon't.
Ahrer,s:j:,:k= better than tilting uooden fences.
conr::: cbscl'Jtely.
Erhart: F.arr-.j.cuIarly .if they're broken up uJith Iandscaping.
Bat:li: The onc r think actually is the one around Eden prairie,s HighSchool with all of the vines on it. That doesn't look bad.
Olsen: Dc you want to take out the wood strips and just keep only ifcovereci r..ith plant material?
Conrad: Yeah.
Emrn j ngs: Cr otherHise landscaped.
Conrad: Yeah, Iet,s justify my last 15 minutes of conversation by..-
Batzli: 90 vou wouldn't alror.l something like the lumber yard where theyput the wood fence on the outside of the chainlink?
Conrad: Yeah, !hat's i. n.ter esti ng .
Olsen; Lle required that.
Batzli: Thev had to cover the chainl.ink. They wanted the security of thechainlink eo ur: made Lhem put the other fence around it.
Planni n;
iur,e 5,
Co:nmission
<ral - C!:-a
Meet i ng
27
CI::-: : :a r -.. :: L.: tDLa.l 1y screeneci .
Ahre:-,s: Ti-re r a t.rick r,,Jal1 on the outside.
Ernrnin3s: Coniferous trees and then deciduous
Batzli: 9c, )'ou wouldn't allow that? I don't
Conrad: [,Jou]dn't allou the.
BatzIi: uoulcin't allor.r a situation where you
the chainlink?
tr ees .
know.
put fence on the outside of
Ernnings: It sayg here they can have fences.
EetzIi: fi.,
a wcoc f ence
Or o*- hr':'w i se
Kr6uss: 9,e 3
f rorn TH 5. if
dif f er ent .
brt you r^rouldn't aIIow them screening
t,ecause here it says you have to have
1a ndscaped .
the chainlink fence r.rithplant mater i a I right?
In thatbut it
Olserr: Pu.L r:e're aciciing, even the Nood fence would have to be landscaped.
Building Components has a sLorage yard there that's visible
ths>, didn't build that r.:all so the purpose is 6little bit
Olsen: Tl',at Has part of the CUP.
Emmings; t,lh.-i woulC make them landscape a wood fence?
olsen: I thought that we were going to add that in this section.
other sec!:ion t:here it talked about fencins, it:s not just a fence
also has to have some landscaping.
Emmi ngs: Okay, so that
wood and chainlink.
wiII apply to r.ralls, It urill apply to fences, both
Krauss: I think the place to do that is in 20-1182 on page 9.
Olsen: That 's r,rhere ue are.
Krauss: Okay. I'm behind the I ball on this- I thought I had some
inforrnation.
Olsen: t"le r,rould al.so put it I think on that page 6.
Emmings: t^lhere on 6 Jo Ann?
Olsen: on 1 at the boltom there and then at the top of page 7 where
talking about screening. I think both spots.
Batzli: These are the same.
neH
it's
Planrri n,- Cclr:issi on
Jurre 5., 19'y1 - Page
Meet i n9
Krau.s: The d!fference here from what we had before is, you've establisheda crite:i: thet- they have to meet. Before we had to do'thai first and ahe;tel I them u:hat we thcught r.,as acceptable and lJe lJeren't bacied up by anordinance that said vou must do something. r think we,ve got a big leg upon it nc,r.r because it does say that.
recommendation. Do
Conrai: Lte're not coming up r.:i.th absolutes here.
Emmings: I asree. t^lhile we're right there. In (a)(3) where it saysplants. rt's at the end of that sentence. rt says artificial plants areprohibited and shall meet the following requirements. So r think you'vegot to put a comma after the uord prohibited.
OIsen: L,Jher e are you?
Emmings: WeIl, you say it
Erhart: I think staff hasyou ;:eed to get specific or
Emmi ngs: On 2O-1183,prohibited real bad-
anyway you Hant to.
to kind of come up with acan you leave it general?
pase 9, (aX3). you
Do you find it?need a comma after the word
Olsen: Yeah f see it but just a comma?
Batzli: After the uord prohibited
PIants to be deciduous trees. It'scatch.
so you donft require thea picky thing that only
artificial
Steve r.lou I d
Krauss:
rnater i a I
If you put
sha I L meet
a period after prohibited andthe following requirements.say a new sentence, plant
ils*:,: l.ri ll r-:e'll f igure it out. t'leybe ree'II just break it out completelyand make. iL ciearer or something. Ue'11 look at it.
Batzli: r guees r would have just in section 2o-lla2, or 20-1183 r guessin (ax1). Even if vou just refer back to that previous section so it ullties together. I'd hate,- otherwise i.t's just going to get long if "e X"epon saying the same thing over and over.
olsen: Anc s'teve, urhen you said or other, you said plant material orother ?
Emmings: I just said or otherwise landscaped.
olsen: ctherwise landscaped. so do r.re need to explain what that means?
Emrings: I C:;:'t krrou. I like to Leave things kind of open.
o.Isen: tJe have to argue what it means. Like r,rell r don't know urhaL itrreans. Ycr're talking about broken up? or otherwise screened withIandsceping:? Like that?
Pl a nni n9 Ccrn j.ssion
Junc- 5, 19c1 - P^9€
Heet i ng
.)
Emrning:: Then really you shculd have aartificial !f you really uant to do it.
separate tHc sentences by a comma.
semi-colon after plants, bef or eI can't help it. You can't
Olsen: I u:as Coing an and not a comma. Can't you do that?
Conraci: Jo Ann, all I'm trying to do is get some quality, I'm trying !o
build some cuality into this. If that's ih an intent statement or if
that'e irr some words in here, I think that's better than some of the
absolutes because I can't come up with the right ones. .Okav, moving on.gti]l my turn. ?age 72, under Subdivision Ordinance. I guess I do agree
t:ith the 3 trees. I do Iike, and I'm trying to think if ure're being naive
on this one b,ut I do ]ike the one maple and I do ]ike the 2 deciduous. I
Iike 3 Cecidulu=, L coniferous tree. one of the deciduous of which being a
rnarle. J egree r.rith Tim's comment on Page 13 under (4). Page 13. t^,e
don't har,'e a maintenance section. So in other words, .in a subdivision vou
can corie in, plant it ancj we don't harre, u,e haven't said anything about
replz,:inJ enC I r.rould think r.re r^rouLd treat the subdivision iust Iike ure
wo-ld tl-,e oLher districts. tlhy wouldn't we talk about rePlacement? And
again, I cjon't know uhat u,e can require in terms of rePlacement.
Olsen: l^.:r.'ve gct n,aintenance in Lhe other section but I don't know if
that's supplying, r+e don't have it referring to this one,
Batzli: f, as a new homeowner. Well, new in a subdivision of this city'
required that the cieveloper give the first purchaser of the property a
certain year guarantee on the trees. Let the homeowner have the ammunitionto go after them because most homeowners will. If it dies, they're the
ones who are going to Nant to replace it.
Wel I yeah , that's true .Krauss:
Ahrens 3
Batzli:luck. It
Krauss: tJeII see we do require that theythey've giving us a urarranty for a year.
back ur,til the stuff's survived the first
I bet most of them do that.
r.Jell you knour you 9o back to the developer and they say, toughdied. Sue me.
guarantee that the tree,
tle don't give them lheirful I growing season .
I mean
mo ney
Ahrens: ThaL's already in here?
OIsen: .', r.: e:tif icial?
Krauss: It beco:',es :'eal. difficult in subdivisions. There's nobody out
there, there's no single unified property ou,ner or controlling Partv to 90after. Yc,u r..;ind up having to go after individuaL homeowners saying your
maple tree ,jied. You or.re us a neu one. Or even you know we're now
recujrir: b.uf f erin9, landscacing and to some extent boulevard Plantings in
a subdivision. tJe're requiring lhe developer install that at Lhe outset
but if a tree cjies 5 years from now, who do we go after to rePlace it?
June 5,
Con;,i==icn
I9'r1 - F.age
Ol sen:
BatzLi:
olsen:
Batzli: But this issubdivision one?
Meet i ng
30
'l':-,:i-': r-: l-,e ! we do with the Iandscaping.
a s..rL.C:l,ision.-:t
That's under the general , That's under the other Articles.
T he: 's not residential subdivision.
That's Ijke saying we should have referred it.
t.lell for us.Krauss: Yeah, Iet,s add in because it r.ror ks realFundarirentally that's r.rhat Ne've done anyr.ray.
Ahren=: I think L year is the maximum.
Emni ng:s: P'-rt this is realry critical . This is all the more reason torecuire more cjeciduous trees and fewer coniferous because those trees haveto ric..€ j ntc, rrinter, especially when they're young they;re-sensitive to thesuri. Nhc-n thev set o-Ider thev're not. Evergreeni. A;d they have to go-into r'rinter r'Lell watered and unless, you know a rot of first timehorn..,cr.:ners F.?)' or mey not know that. ' It takes a Iot, tney;ie. a lot fussierthan c: :ici;ou: .-rees.
Conrad: I L,uy whet Dick said in terms of the appearance. The largeraFFesr'en.e ' r cio Iike coniferous trees. tle are without leaves on ourLre:: irr 7 r.nths a yeay. p.nyway, so I Like the mli-"na-i-Suess in lhisc6ee I thinli tr'et the two deciduous is the right proportion tut r rike theniii: . t,je ri:,ec' the greenery or anything to breik ,i t'f,. ;;;;.;, in thew j nterr-ii:i: . 9,o I li ke that. My last comment was something I said lasttime anc' rcre than rikelv m stirr concerned au"ri ,"s"i'iigh*"r". Thesubdi'" isi.on oiciinanc.e misht pIay, might reeo inio-i"IiI-.rv-you,re backingup to TH 1o1 or to TH 41 with a subdivision. Do ue want to iequire on ourmajol. highr.ra)'s cr- arterials to have any kind of i ncr easeO
-if. iiiis.
Emming=: A h,uffer zone. l.le've been calling it a buffer zdrne.
Conrad: yeah.
Krauss: It 's 1B-51( a ).
Conrad: okay.
only 1n the, isn't this one in a residential
Olsen: Yes.
Emrni ngs: Hor^r deep isstill have a minimumarterial?
Paul? Is there d ny extra depth).ot right up to that street?there? Can you
That collector or
it
size
Olser: ft sa),s that they can be, the steps can be increased-
Emini n3s : Bec a ua:€
depth Con'l you ?
a bort -
Krauss: Yeah. L6ter on in there
be increa-.eC bv ZS"-. over district
more
talking
r.,e say that the lot depths and areas may
standards
if you're
I mean it 9oi ngjust to do mor e
seems to me.
Iandscapi ng you need
That's what you 're
Emmings: r:lright. I like it.
.Krause: In looking at.the develoPment along Audubon Road and over the
comp plannins process really hit home that, and that's clearly an area
r.:h=:'e this needed to be done and wasn't and Lhere's going to be heII to Pav
as soon as we have the industrial. project across the street being Proposed.
Emiring3: !,JelI r+e 're going to trind uP imPosing it on Lhem right?
Nay , that's one ofKraus::
the sites
Y€. E -r.rith
Rya n
the buffer requirements, And bv the
Development is working on .righL noul .
Conrad: I 'rr cJone.
Emmi ng=: Okay. Br ian?
Batzli: I'm confused about the solution to Ladd's Problem so I might as
we]I Eiert oui NiLh that since ure're right there' It was my undersLanding
that t-he re Liere tr.,,o sections to this. one aPPIies.to industrial,zoffice and
one applir.: to detached single family. Is that true or not true?
Kraus:: one is locjged in the s.ite Plan review section which only applies
to nor,-s j.ngle family develoPment, The other is in Lhe subdivision code.
to everything eJse? SiteBatzIi: Soplai reviei;
Krauss.:
BatzIi:
No.
tnen
Uell
I thought ure were
too?
js the subdivision stuff applicable
why are we doing it that way?
you have to do it that way.Krauss:
B3tzli: But we have things in one section. Like for example the buffer
along the major arlerials/collectors ulhatever. That's only in the
subdivision, not in the site plan revieuJ. Is that risht?
Krauss r t,ell yes but, the reason why it's in the Subdivision Code first of
all, it app,lies to s.ingle family development which only has to jump through
that hoop. In that case you're trying to screen residences from the
freeway
BatzI i :
through
trying to make it nice and pretty to drive
PIanni:',2 C crr.nr-i s:;i on Meeting
June i,19?1 - fag.31
t
tr I a :.rni n-r Cr)frtn iSS i On
June 5, 1?91 - PE.9€
Heeti n9
because
PIar,:?
Er'-,lt c.nl y
you 're not
on I i ke
going
every other lot as you 90 throughto be covering the things that are
the Cityjust site
Emnings: gee if vou go r.rith Ladd's notion that as you drive down TH 5 asan eiamtr].e - That it ought to be attractive and that,s..going to beacccr,p]isht-cj bv open space and landscaping, he's asking are we going to beable to applv. You knoul here we've got residential ard *e know we can geta Iittle more space with this sectioi. tJhat about on the commerciar andindustr iaI properties?
E:iii:g:: I think r,ihat he's saying, if our standard for residentialapplie= to colLectors and arterials, why doesn't our standaid here?isn't- it in the same ranguage so it's clear that ue want to make sureour li^-'- 16';,1: ::jce and ure have buffering betr^leen them,
Krauss: c)kav. it's treated a little differentrv but on zo-rraz on page 9where u:e talk about foundation and aesthetic plans. ura.i i"l. ureii-iiistof all rre reeuire that the site, not only thai you landscape parking lotsanc =:reti tiash enclosures but that vou have lindsi.Jing-ri"rnd buildin;perimsters, b.reak up building wa]Is and ultimately =.i."i iun..". And thatall uncjeveloped areas of the site be landscaped. 'A;; ih"n i.) wheie- - --
rrnde'"e-lcped cr open areas of the site located adjacent to p.ruiic right-of-i':e )' , the'n ue go bec k to that standard that u,e've always r,ab-inat yo,] hareto put in at least I tree for every 40 feet of frontase.
Emmings: Eut Hny isn't this, I think what and I,m sorry to butt in but.
Eatzl i : N. . please , you ,re doi n9 a good job.
t lhy
that
Ah:'e r.= : trariicularly
r.rhi c h could happen.
if they're across the street from a residential area
Krauss: tJeIl, I guess the problem is you're talking about two differentclasses of use generally. Now this couid cover mulii-famili housins ast+ell but vou are often talking about uses that lrant the visiUility irorn thehighxa;'. If vou're talking about industrial park or a rarset or whateverelse' thev're not looking to be screened or buffered. t mian we're goingto trv to get them to do that to some extent but they're }ooking for thaivisibili+->,. You don't Nant to shut off that view.
Emmings: tJell, ue don't give them a lot of visibility. If youindustria.l park here from TH S., except for one ]ittLe buildinsabout, they're not depending on any visibilitv from TH 5.
lookI can
at the
think
Krauss: That
l'lcGIynn's issite becausegoing to r.la nt-for it.
's
chirt
true but you look at the 35 acres in front of McGlynn's.arging a premium for that and it's considered to a premiere's on en intersection on TH S and it's for a company that'so be prominent and r.rant the visibility that is going to tray
it- r.,:cuId accomplish both those purposes.
Planrri ng Comrnission
June 5,, 1991 - Page
MeeL i n9
Batz]i: I 9ues9 it depends on what we're trying to do here. Are ure trying
to mek€ th.= comn,ercial people happy or are we trying to, I thought Ladd's
idea w.zs h,e're trying to make the highr.,ray look nice. And nour if you wanL
to encoura?e the people to clutter and high visibility, then ule go to t{hatyou're seying. tle're saying fine. tJe'II give you high visibility. tle're
going to iet you have 494 strip.
KTAUSS: No,
thi ngs .
I don'! think so. I think what we're saving is two different
Batz]i: But we're going to have l tree everv 40 feet. You're going tg
-have them high visibility.
Kraues: uell, firsL of all that's a mi.nimum. Secondlv, if thev have a
parking lot th6re they trip a whole different section of the ordinance
which requires screening of the parking lot. If they have a buildjng
there, there are sections that require landscaPing around the building. If
they are across the street or adjacent to lower intensity uses, they triP
the buffer standards that are in the comp plan that are nou in ordinance
here. I mean we're getting at this Nith a 4 or 5 Prong aPProach. It's
just thc 1 tree per 40 feet at all. In fact that 1 tree Per 40 feet is
just the i'nf i]l. If you don't have a Parking lot, vou don't have a '
buitding and you don't have some other kind of area there, you're going to t
have to cjo this on toP of everything else.
Erhart: This is almost ]ike an outlot situation. Unused area that will be-
used sometime later on.
Kraues: Jf you look a! the Dalaserv site, ute have a large lawn area there,
t^JelI urrder- !his regulation, that large Iaurn area uould have scattered
aesthetic plantings throughout and it would have boulevard trees-
Erhart: Are you saying Paul that 40 feet is
for a mature boulevard tree? Is that 40?
the ideal location for sPacing -
Krauss: eil, it'd probablv be more around 3O
not
foot center..
of this. From Dick to thatErhart: That's the solution. tJhat's
wall there is about what ' 30 feeL?
Batzli: 35.
Krauss:
tend to
BatzI i: I don'tlengthy but only
with Lhe mi ni mum
size.
!he width
Yeah, the 30 foot cenLers i.s r.lhere the crowns for a mature tree
come together.
know. I always thoughL the 40 feet uras a little bit
because uhen we see it, r.re tend to see people. They go
they can put in and they put in trees that are minimum
KrauSS: TrUe.
PIanninS Ccrnission
June 5, 1991 - Page
Meet i n9
34
Batzi-i: Anci in 25 years it may look great but until thatlike :cu've gc,t- dinkv Iittle trees 40 feet apart.
time, it looks
Krauss: LJeII uJe'd be happv to decreasd that dot^ln to 30 or 2s or b,hateveryou r.rish. I don't think we should overlook the fact though that the majorchange here is that the old landscaping ordinance only required, it did;,trequire anything except l tree for every 40 feeL
Emmings: And l tree per lot in the subdivision and that r.ras it.
Batzli: Okay. tJeIl , .anyway..
Krauss: 5o should we look at knocking this doun to 25 or 3O feet?
Batzli: I would like to see that_
Emmi ngs: The
Not^r if people
them dc that?
here I guess,
and thaL 's all it says t hatthey want to
mt nlmum
are we
poi nt
c ome IN
the
do,
is 40
9oi n9
feet.to Iet
Krauss: t"tell you have some f]exjbility. If there's nothing there behindthere rhat rhe)'re obLigated to do more landscapins, ,;;';;-probabry in atough spct. But they also now have a minimum they-have to-spend and theyhave to demonstrate that they're spending it and if they fuiiif t tne:.rother requireflrents and. still have fundins left over, you .in for"" them todo whatever you uJant them to do.
Emmi ngs: Okay ,
Conrad; Brian, do you have a vision forterms of uhat they should look like?arterial and collector streets in
EaLzli: I don't know. I ]ook at the TH 1O1 south of TH 5 that Ioriginalll' envisioned and it would have been nice to have-tind of moreof a boulevard approach. I don't knor.l . Sumac. l4ap]es. tJho knor^rs buL itwould be nice to do something like Lhat and if we oniy iequire tteresidential subdivisions to do it, you're going to have a 'noase podge ofthis stuff down the street and everywhere else-you,rr have ihe ao foottrees and parking ]ot stuff in front of it. And maybe that is r.rhat h,e Hant.Maybe it's better to break it up.
conrad: rf vou ]ook at the TH 5 corridor, that wilr be, the landscapingrequirements on that could be interesting. I think as you talk to peteiolin out at the Arboretum, there courd be some fun things-tJ ao on thatparticular entryHay. I guess variety is kind of neat too so I kind ofhesitate when r said before r rike the 2 deciduous and the i being a maple.r think there are a lot of, you can have some flowering tiees trrat.arerather neat- r think we should be thinking in essence that ihere is adoorwav to the Arboretum and we courd set it if *" wanteJ io and theArboretum could help if we didn't have to pay a consul.tant to help us outr.rith that. But again, I think the TH 5 section might be taken care of aswe ]ook a'- that or TH 41 buL r think r just r.rant to charlenge us all to
Planni ng Comnrission
-'Iune 5, 1991 - Page
l'1eeti n9
start thjnking. There can be some neatarterial s'.reets. 8ut f 've got to have
whether iL's irrdus!rial or resiiJential ,of this and a little bit of that unless
alternatives on
kind of a master
it's just going
PauI and Jo Ann
nra jor
PIanto be
can.
collector
other w i sea littIe
and
bit
Krauss: Uell there's another element that's coming into the mix whenyou're talking about something like TH 5. For those of you who are going
to be able to come a]ong on Saturday, I think you'Il get a feel for some of
that. The HRA has, we've got plans that have been approved by the HRA and
City Council to do a design element plan along TH 5 as it's rebui]L. It
includes Iandscaping,' It iricludes special. pavement trealments. It
includes monumenlation at the entrances to downtoern. The whole key to, I
think special Iighting. The urhole idea of the thins is.to let People knohr
who are traveling through on TH 5 that they've just come' into a different
community and one that cares about itself and what it looks like. HnDoL is
kind of tough to work. They have a lot of, veYY ]imited flexibilitv within
their right-of-way buL we've acquired land outside their right-of-u,av to do
these things and we have every intent of working, probably trith the same
individual as TH 5's expanded out to TH 41 to do a similar design effort.
In fact that jndividual is going !o be on the bus on Saturday and can give
an ide a.
Emmi ngs: tJho 's that?
Krauss: Earry t^rarner from Barton Aschman. He'lI give you an idea about
urhat's already been approved and uiII be develoPed over the coming vear and
hopefull>, uhat dj.rect jons we might be able to 9o in in the future. So the
TH 5 streetscape is an element onto itself and it's bevond something that
indjvidual cjevelopers can or should exert control over. Now what we're
going to r,Jant to do is build upon that and make sure that landscaPing Plansare complinrentary to that as they border that area.
Emmings: tlell it r.rill be nice. If we have something like a successful
vision arrd plan for TH 5 and then Ne can always Point to that as something
we uJent to emmulate in other parts of the city so that uould be nice to
conr ad :It's lough to, you know ue're babbling here.
f 'r,, not .Emmi ngs :
Conrad: You are too. You're saying nice things Steve. You're saying it
would be nice but if there's that vision and maybe you're risht. Maybe thevision comes out of what we learn on TH 5. I don't know ulhat it is. LikeBrian said, I thought our connection to TH 2f2 and the entryway to
Chanhassen, I thought that r.ras our chance for a grand entryway but budget
and a lot of things sort of interrupted that. tlhat are. you doing? Do you
want to talk?
Er hart: tJhe n you're done. I'd just kind of encourage you to get done.
I 'm encouraged.Conrad: O kay ,
PIanni nJ Commi ssi on
-'Iune 5, 1991 - page
Meet i ng
36
Erhart: Lei-'s just offer a proposal to change it to 30 feet. At somepoini ths:,-- tf.ings do cost money but I think 40 feet is from that waII tothat wa.Ll . -Ihat seems to be a long uays and then add a sentence that says,alternative, well staff can make up something that invites afternaii".I-il'this if it meets the intent which allows us.
Emmings: We should always have language Iike that. Letwith a better idea and let's be open to it r.rhen it cotmesable to say no.
somebody come upand let's also be
the3 lots
a
'Batzli: Yeah, good idea_ Section.2O-fl7Z on page 3. l.,e,re going torequire that the plans are drawn by a Registered Landscape erchitect orother professional. acceptable to the City. I don't knor,l . I read that andI wondered why you uere requirins that and I started thinkinS of goofysituations like what sort of professional .
Krauss: t^,hatever we I i ke .
Batzli: Yeah.
Kr6uss: The Furpose is, we've seen too many plans that are drawn up byPeople who are not landscape designers and frankly it doesn,t. cost a wholeheck of a lot rnore to employ the proper professionai a.i"g it. But you,llhave enginee:s who decide that lve designed the pipes in the street,hittins) it with a tree stamp a couple times is no, L".V. Or arcnitects doit. They think they have a better sense of design Sri'i."iiy they,retrying to make thejr building stand out and theii priorities'are a littledifferent. This is not a professional r.andscape architeci employment actbut it's a desire to 9e! appropriate pror.=iion.t= J"irg-"hit tr,.y shouldbe doing.
olsen: rt's allowed to-ret like landscaping contractors to do the planstoo Iike people from HaIIa or something.
Batzli: r guess r r,rourd agree uith this as long as it is rimited to, r.rel]see I think this gets back to my original problem of what does, r.rhichsection applies to what type of development. r think that this shouldapply to most commercial devel.opments. Not the ma ana pa-srOOivision butthe larger subdivisions. There's a lot of oiffereni q".=ti"n= about uhoshould this realIy apply to and it's clear that this snouia-appfy to themajor subdivisions but I don't knoru that it does.
orsen: r did have something in there where it r.las like referring tocommercial inside plans and then I also had something like if it wasor less vou don't but if it's a larger subdivision ii does have to bepr of essi o na L
Batzl i: tJhere is that?
Olsen: I had somethi n9bigger ones had to have
there Iike that.
and the smal ler
lnir It broke it down to where the
ones.
Plann:' r.3 Cc'mi ission
June 5, 19?1 - Page
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37
Krauss: L.re cen go b,ack to that. I think ule lost it when Lre got away f rom
more cjetaileJ Iandscaping requirements -
Olsen: !,leLl we got away from it with this dealing with residential too and
then when we took out the residenLial.
Batzli: That's my biggest problem r.rith the current organization of it. I
like a lot of whaL's in there but I'm confused as to u,hich apPlies to r.rhat.
Which sectjons apply to residential . which apply to in general and there
are some good provisions in each and should they apply to both. I think we
have to resolve those issuesi . Most of comments are picky things becau3e I
take after Steve, Buffer yards on page 4. It's the neu ParagraPh 4. You
reference it here. a(c)- Due to a change of use of existing site, the
required buffer yard is larger than can be Provided. t,lhat kind of buffer
yard r.roulci thet be? I thought ue defined buffer yard in the comPrehensive
plan as.
Krauss: l,l€ did and this is that ]anguage but.
Olsen: Thet one is again, I think
deteiled ihose t,uffer yards but we
t hose .
So init.
uhat u:e did was took out a Section.lhat
forgot to take out this reference to
adjacent to Bluff Creek urith the powerjust north of that littIe development
Batzli: I cJidn't know Hhat that meant.
Olsen: 9c t^re should maybe just take that one out.
Eatzli: But if we jump ahead to page 7 momentarily, to Paragraph (b)(3)
where r.'e talk about additional buffer yard requirements are established by
the City Comprehensive PIan as Iisted in individual district standards.
Are kre going to do that? Are these really the buffer, buffer yards that we
estab I i shcC?
Krauss: That's a]ready done. If you look up the individual district
slandards , it's in there.
BatzIi: Ol,.ay.of the name of
a buffer yard for example the one that's, can't €hink
Krauss: Around T i mber r,lood .
Batz]i: I r.ras thinking of the one
substation. There's a buffer yard
there. Sunrise Court.
Krauss : Su nr i dge Court .
Batzli: so in somewher eto do in the buffer yard
OIsen: That's goi n9
maP.
there 's a standard
that 's 9oin9 to go
that tells them u,hat they have
over the pipeline?
to be on the Comp PLan. It's on the Land L,se Plan
Pls nni:rg Cornmie:ion
June 5, 1?91 - Page
Mee t i n9
38
Kraucs: trigh!. And it's on each individual district.
F:+-'r - 't+ :-'>
Olsen: i^Jell the buffer, the perimeter buffer yards are aren,t they? Likeon tJilliam's Pipe'ine, I don't think.
Batzli: f 'nr talking abou! the special buffer yards that we crealed.
Krauss: Delineated in the Comp plan, yeah.
Batzli: yeeh.
Krauss: That Has Hritten into the ordinance a couple m5nths, or aroundChrisLrnas actually.
Batzli: I djdn't remember that. Did you remember that?
Emni n3:: Of course .
Batzl i: So a!-,:t it,d say?
Emmings: I'm the Chairman and you're out of order.
Krauss: It irasn't Lreen codified yet. It's a xerox insert into the thingand.I aclually had to have lhe original pulLed out so t coulO find it
Batzlj: Is it good stuff? Does it accomplish urhatwe're cioing in here? I don't remember it all.
Ernmings: f Cc,rr 't either. Do youthis thir,3 is going to have to be
Batzli: Yeah.
Krauss: EelI in fact that remindsit's attached to the back where ueperlaining to landscaping from aII
think it would be
come back agai n .
we bJant to do what
usefuL if , obviously
Does everybody agr ee?
Emmings: And when it comes back, we should probably, it should either comeback r^:ith everything else out of the ordinance that applies to landscaping.All the buffer vard material and everyLhing else so we've lot eveything ina package thot u,e can look at it all and see how it fits t6gether. or ifthat's toc, big a job, then at least give us reference to th6se other placesso r4e can f i nd them easi Iy .
we gave you,
regu Iations
Emmings: Okay but I guess maybe paul what's got to be done is it's allto be pulled tc,gether and you've got to be satisfied that it aII fitstogether. And there may be changes to those other ones that will benecessarv as a resuLt of what we've taLked about tonight. But r thinkure've goL to have it all pulled together in one packet so we know what
me. Thetried to
over the
first memo that
compile aII the
or di nance .
90t
Plannin3- Comn'ri ss i on
June 5,, 1991 - Page
Heeting
39
because it's real confusing right now I think. At lesator t hc other pe.ople .
the Chairperson,
record he was pointing at Tim.
ure're lcc,l:r!, at
iL '-= c,:,nfu-.i n;- f
Batzl i: Nc,.. f or
Conrad: For the
Kraugs: Her e
20-e95, blah,buffer yards.
'decrease the.
's the insert right here. It'blah, blah and all the othersft was the same time r.re gave
s Ordinance No. 135 amending
regarding parking setbac ksthe flexibil ity for Redmond
and
to
Batzli: I don't recall what we did in the buffer yard.. In any event,
okay. Moving back to page 5, 20-1179, paragraph (a), tne last sentence.
The minirnur, landscape rralue required may be flexible if tree preservation
is applied to exisLing vegetation on the siLe. I guess I didn't like it
because c,f the r.:ay it was worded. I think we're trving to encourage tree
pres*rvation and it looked like it was saying weII, vou can do this if you
do thet. The !ntent seemed muddled up there. That tree Preservation is
encourageC and I don'! know. I don't know if anybody else had a Problemwith that'.but jt looked to me like we were stating .it negatively tlhen.it
should somehox be more positive. Any$ay
conracj : Eut the intent I assume was that existing vegetation could satisfy
some of th= financial requirements?
Eatzli: Right.
Emming=: Eut I think you could say it this uray. You could. say tree
prese:-vation i= encouraged and can result in a reduction of the amount thatyou're requived to spend so it encourages Preservation. That's the idea.
Batzli: In section 20- 1142
end phrase, the. L,ui]ding on
on page 9, paragraph (a). The very last' tail
accessory signage. Is it or accessory?
) then
the
Olsen: Yeah, or accessory.
Batzli; I had a question about how far back in that paragraph
where the overstory boulevard trees planted. Are they plantedpublic right-of-way and how far back are they planted?
(c
in
Krauss: They're never planted in the public right-of-way.
Batzli: tJhy do they do that in l.linneapolis then? They have thesebeautiful arching trees over the roads and we can't do it?
Krauss: They aLso have sidewalks and curbs that burst out. I don't have agreat ansu,er for it. Unfortunately modern suburbs seem to be designed bythe guy who drives the snohrp.l.ow more often than not. They cause you
probLems from the standpoint of utiliLy maintenance. They cause you
problems fronr the standpoint of installing things like cable TV lines.
They cauee you problems in that they bust up the pavement and they look
Planni ng Commis=ion
June 5, 1991 - Page
Meet i ng
40
awful pre+,ty. I guees there's a trade-off but this is much thethaL Mna'oL doesr,'t aIlow us to do anything in their right-of-r.rayand ra j;1i,6 r:iT-rC€ reasons, or very Little in their right-of-way.works people and engineering staff balli at the planting of largein ruhat they t,elieve to be their right-of-Nay.
Erhart: uhat isright-cf-wa;,?it, a 32 foot wide street typically with a 5O foot
same r.Jayfor safety
Our publ i ctrees that
Krauss;ea f ooL .
Erhartr Now ure're asking for 6O-
Krauss: uhich tends to, we just sent to sharmin to a conference u,here,they rightfullv say we have absurdry r.,ide streets and rights-of-uay,r mean it's designed so the guy that's turning the snowplow around can360 with ons hand. t^lell, do you realry hrant to design your city to tha
Erhart: tJc've got absurdly wide streets?
and
doa
L?
Kr6uss: Lle jl we have wide streets. I don't hrant to classifyabsurdly wide. I've seen wider in some communities but you'verecogni.-e that there's positive standpoints from doin€t that.maintenance and design. The down side is you have awiul Iaige
Batzli; Large dead zones?
Erhart: Ar,,'f ul large asphalted areas,
t hem
90t
Fr om
dea d zones.
AS
to
Krauss: tJelI either thev're asphalt or they're just going to have sodbecause you don't allow anything else- There are so*. brihes. Nor,i intvpical residential neighborhood vou have the, is ii 28 o; i2 do *. r="there? 28 I think for the paved area on a street and the right_of_wayindistinquishable from somebody's front yard.
Erhart: tlhy did we 90 to 60 feet?
Olsen: To be consi stent -
Batzli: t,e just did that a couple years ago too-
Olsen: No, we iust did it in December.
Emmings: Consistent h,ith Hhat?
our
tn
Olsen: They needed it for the, to contain the sidewalks that we're nowrequiring and for the utirities and we u,ere finding that Ne were having theroads and utilities and the sidewarks on the private land. Having to eetaddiLional easements. rt al.l comes down to the size of the street. TheasFhalt part of it. Because of the size of the street we need thatr ight-of-way.
Plan;ri n3 Ccrn:n j.ssicn
June 5,, 1991 - Fase
tleet i n9
4t
ErharL: fsn't it possible, getting back to this, isn't it poqsible to sayokay th. tre--3 can not be planted within 10 feet of the curb instead oftryirrg t c-, ci:f ine it in terms oflpublic right-of-way r.rhich you don't know
where it starts and stops. Uhy don't we, can you find a number?
Krauss: Keep in
corners on them.
and stops ,
nrind that these are new lots and they've all got
They should know exactly uhere the righL-of-way
sta kedstarts
Erhart: well yeah I know but if you've got a 60 foot right:of-way an,Cyou've got a 28 foot r,lide st.reet, that's 1.2 feet on either side.
Ahrens: I think a lot of them don't though. tlhere thei.r lot ends andthe right-of-way begins and they're different within a subdivision.
Erhart; Here we're talking about the developer.
Kreuss It's not uniform.
AhrenS: 9c, you
Lucy. You he ve
or t,,Jhat eve r tha!
Emmi ngs: TraiI?
Ahrens: Trai I easenrent. 15
trees in. The>"d be sitting
or 20. Huge.in the ce nter
my poj.nt. It doesn'L seem to me they'reputting them 20 feet off the boulevard.
You could never put boulevard
of people's yards.
have, along some streets you may have, well like along Lake
a 1o foot utility and a 20 foot or 15 foot walkway easement
is.
EatzIi;
uhen you
boulevard
Th
en
,s
UPd
boulevard trees
They're really not
trees.
Kr6uss: But they're not, I mean Lypically they're going to be, you know ifyou put t.hem right on the edge, they're 10 or 12 feet back and a tree crou,nwill extend well beyond that when it matures out.
the utiliLy lines all run a.long there too and get cut offAhrens: And
anYbtaY .
Krauss: AII utilities are below grade
subdivisions. The only thing that areIines.
now.
above
t hat
ma Jor
l^le require
grade are
in all
di.str ibut io n
Batzli: Okay, keep moving here.sentence. Last phrase. Is that
understand that.
2O-1183, paragraph (aX2). Last
screening requirement? I didn 't
In
any
Emmings: I can't find where you're at.
Batzl i : Page 9. 2O-1183stole your thunder there.
(a)(2). Earth worm section, yeah. Sorry, I
The required opacity, opacity. However you say
Plsnni ng Comn,issicn
June 5, 19?1 - Page
l''1e et i ng
42
that. The section that's gone
9'1 =.-,ti
._ -- ! a ._ c-- ? I. didrr 't see it now. Is that needed for anything? Did that
Olsen:'s gone.
Batzli: It's totally gone. Did we need it for anything?
Krauss: L^leII you've established uhere you urant screening, you saidphzsicallv thou shall do it in these areas. rn these instances. Therequired opacitv uJas an unenforcable standard. rt uas a criteria that was.open to different determinations by anybody urho,s doing it and ;;k;J-;il-t"think forward 10 years from now and see what percentase of ihe vietr ,rorid--be obscured and there's really no hard and fast criteiia that you canuniformily applv for that that makes sense. so r think r"rhat ure,re going tobe resortins to is sort of a more touching feeling way of Jemonstratingthis. Lle're gring to go telr the designer the neirest home is over here.You show us what the view,s going to bi lit<e from tn"i f,ome. Do aperspectiv.r.
Batzli: Eut isn't this goingcould have told the registeredshootj ng for, Now you,re just
screen it.
to be more subjective? AtIandscape architect , thiskind of giving him touchy
Ieast before youis what you'fe
feely sayi ng
Krauss: l',ro ' it's no more subjective than the other one uas in that it'snot coua-he d behind a pseudo scientific standard that u,as meaningless. ithink instead of doing that it says L,e want to accomplish this goal.Demongtrate horJ you,re going to do it.
Batzli: I don't know. Haybe we need more intent then of what thescreening is supposed to do. I mean I think you,ve got a good intentsection a)readv' and the rrew ]andscaping standards seition. r don't know.I'm an =nginecr. I Iike Lhe pseudo scientific stuff. I like the twocleciduc,us, trees. I lhink if one's maple that's great. f ihlnX thet if youhave a waiver hor.:ever, you should still require i in aII insLance. That,sjust r.,e. I just look at the dying forest and I say prt.i ieast r new treein. And I say that because my folks have 60 year old elms and oaks andmaples and thev're all going to falr to the ground and they-haven't plinteda neuJ tree and it's going to look rike a cornfield in about 3 yearsprobably. So I would say you can do it on a 1to l basis but you stillhave to put 1 in. r like the fact that you're going to have Lo seed or sodimmediaLelv. And mv last question is, r think we need to siy something inhere about Iandscaping non-buildable outlots and subdivisi.ons. Ue have todo something to take care of that somehow. I happen to live in asubdivision r.rhere Lhe entry lot uas landscaped kind of and then reft by thedeveloper. There's no association. The City doesn't own the land. f-hedevelopnrent doesn't own the land. Nobody owns the Iand.
Batzli: Fox Hollou. And we have to getNhether it's jn another section ulhere you
here aboutassociation that .that owns
somethi ng
require in
an
Krauss: Are you in Pheasant Homes?
Pla nr'i ir3; Cor,miseion
June 5, 1991 - Page
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43
the prc,perty ancj they have to take care of jt, or in this section if you'reg:i;r: t: build an outlot that's not buildable or Ieave an outlot, you'vtgot to tale care of jt. You knou something that they take care of thesethi ngs .
Emmings: lJell somebody owns it. ft can't be not owned.
BatzIi:
care.
so who
ueLl that's the point though. TheThey're not part of the development.
takes care of these things?
person who owns it doesn't
They're not part of anything
KrauES:
usually
Batz I i :
ouJn it.
Batz} i : No.
who or"rns it.
comments.
lJeI I if an outlot !,as truly created r.rith no
deeding it to the City or maintaining it for specific purpose,
drainage.
It sits t,asically for drainage at this point but the city doesn't
Krau=:: 9.-e t.he city took, in Pheasant Hi]I we were supposed to take
poesessi.n of I think 7 outlots and because bJe didn't have our attornev
doine the filing of the subdivision, the guy never gave it to us- Therr we
found cur, they, were gcing tax forfeit 5 and 7 years later and they hadn't
been r,ain'-air,ecj at all. If b,e tske title to them, we maintain them but
they etill should be Iandscaped so they don't just be kind of'a treedy sump
because our guys don't go out there t'o moLr these things. tle don't have the
manpcw.r to do that so it should be some sort of a self maintaining type of
landgcapi ng ar ound that .
OIsen: Uas it bought recently?
Rottlund doesn't or^rn it. Not the developer. I don't know
Ladd owns it? In any event, that's it. Those are my
tJe]l most of the comments that I had have already been touched
sure.
Emmi ngs :
Farma kes :
upon I'm
Ahrens: 10 or 12 times.
Farmekes: I still am not total]y, although I..think 3 trees are fine, I'msti1l noL convinced that there's any carved in stone reason for ulhy it's 3
and not 4 and not 5 or as Councilman 1.lin9 said.6 but he thought that would
be too much. I wish there was a better guide as to what it is attainable
Batzli: It's part of the subdivision process where we have to fix it but
there are in:Lances in the city uhere you end up kind of screwy like these -two situat.icns. Fox Ho1low and the other one. It can be an eye sore. I
happen to Iive in a neighborhood where a group of people banded togeLher
and e couple r-inr6s a year they go down there and clean it up a little bit
buL thsi''re spending a lot of money on this guy's property who I don't even -
know urho the heck he is. In any event?
Planni r,:
June 5, L
C -'';iin i ss i o n
991 - Pas€
Meet i ng
44
or Lll.t r.,e shoulcl be asking for rather than 3's 3 more than we ask for now,F.rh'.i: n?,|,n some of these design people that are going to be here thisu.;ee i.::ri, r,:);€ Art'c,j-etum peopld or something. But is there someexFe.'-et ic.' cf r^rhat this is going to be with the sizes that we have hereand the amcunt of trees that we're requiring as to r.lhat we,re going to have5 veers from now ^- 10 vears from now or how long it's going to take beforethose trees become a rear viabre forested area. r'm kina 6i getting theimpreseic,n th;L what we,re doing is upping uhat we,ve got or condensing thedistance of the plantings o, upping the fisure wjth, r:uisi we had someidea in mind of uhat we r^rere going to have in the.na,"=rit, or how Longit uras soins to take to get those areas reforestea. -coupriig tn"t with theONR report of what He've got now and what our intent *.='oi pf.n *".. t^thatwe !,jere going to urind up r.lith in the year 2OOO o;2010.
BetzI i : It's interesting.Edina Lc trlaces urhere theyneighborhoods and tell the
That's an excellent point butdeveloped in the 6O,s, you canneu from the oId neighborhoods.
if you go
still go
to
to
Farmar'c=': yoJ bet. u,e used to live there and the Harriet Manor Addi.tiondown bv the river rhich.is.right or.r -ui xerxes which borders r,rinneaporisand t:at r.:as cier,,eLoped in.'4g. If you go through there, there,s just atremendous dive;-siLy in the forestated ir"rs. These are mature trees nowanC eve:-y ;-e:r has 4 or 5 different types of trees. in.r.-i" no smatteringof elrns or of maples or whatever. f frere,s just really a diversity in thaturbar, f ores*.. It really is quite beautiful and qujte thick. I mean it,scertairilv. r don'L know. t^jhat's '4g? rt isn,t t[ii-r."g-.g". 30 years.Put th:+- t,r: ners r,e to ancther point that hle were talking about. If werequire that 3OZ of aII the trees that u,ere planted are-a-particular genusof trees, and I,m not against that. i can understand your reasoning behindit. I r.:ould Iike to get maybe .oru pioi."sional input'is'to wnetfrer that,sa uise !ce,a L.ecause 70 yeats ago r,m sure there *i= "-.orriJsion inMinlre:pc]is tnat thought that "fr" ,ui" a good tree to pt.nt .na a majorityof the Plantings in Minneapolis. were a-pariicular tree.'-;;J it didn,t turnout tr t'a too trise vears down the rine and m not ="i. ii"ioz is overplanting of one tree or not. r can see uhere we i"q"iir-i lertain type ofqualjty of tree but I'm not sure it's a good idea to g.i onJ particulartype of tree for that high of a requirement. That,s it.
Ahrens: As Dick t^ling's recommendation, I like 3 trees. An), number h,e comeup with wou]J be arbitrarv !o Te. d, ), a urourd be gi..t urt developersaren't goi n.o to do that. They're just not. Especially when ,^re,rerequi.ringr them to, which r think is a good idea, to "ul,a--"i'""a arl of theIots. I mean a lot of developers won,i do that'becaus.-it;a- expensive.They'll give you a sod allowance.
Krauss: Bv the r.rav that's an existing requirement. ThaL's not a new one.
Batzl i : Si nce when?
Krauss: I don't !^rant to tell you how 1ong. I mean it's been on the booksfor yeers. !.J e only started eniorcing it a year and a half ago.
PIanni
June 5
- a^--i^-i^^
1 991 - Page
Meet i n9
45
it on there in '86?
KraugE:Cl, yeah.
Emmi ngs :
Bstz I i :
Ahrens:
EatzI i :
Ahrens:
Ahrens: Inot done.
Is this getting personal?
Yeah.
I spent
live
a lot
Yeah, I in a subdivisjon right now that.
can tell you what happened before. ft wasn't done. Absolulely
of money. sodding my yaYd, tt ice.
It's 2 years old. Not even 2 years old I don't think.
Krauss: Undoubtedly the developers built that cost into the cost of the
houge hut Lre went through a process where PeoPIe h,ere comPlaining about
this a couple of years ago. tle knew this r^ras on the books and that it
hedn't been enforced and it real.Iy becamea nightmare because it r.ras in the
subdivision code but ure couldn't afLer the fact enforce it because it
r.Jasn't written jnto the development contracts which were recorded with theproperty a.nd in several. instances r.rhere it was written against the
devel.otr::,crrt contract, the engjneering dePartment I think unkngwingly, who
adminietered those contracts, reaIIy only cared about gelting 'the streets
and utilities built and as soon as they were done, they cancelled out
responsibiljt>' for the contracts and voided them so uue had absoLutely no
teeLh to go after these people- tle've since revamped our procedures so
thaL a;e:'yih.ing we've approved in the Iast year is Permanently Hritten into
the clei,eloEment contract. tJe only give partial relEases uhen we keepgetting calls from aLlorneys who trant to have clear title Pass6d along.
You krrcw r.Le only release those elernents that have been taken care of and
some of these requirements are permanent, Sharmin administers a Program
Lrher€ url-,en soineL,ody comes in f or a building permit, we give them a handout
that says, thj.s is what your obligations are. Sign off on this so you
understand. I can't answer for what happened before but that's what
they're dci ng nor.r ,
Batzli: The/ sodded the right-of-r.ray basically is what .they did.
Ahrens: As a matter of fact they came in our subdivision and said, you
have, I don't know. It h,as a minimal amount of sod and they said you haveto use this first in the right-of-way. I said forget it. We ulouldn't let
lhem do it. tJe Hanted to put it in our yard and let the right-of-way.
Krauss: That's because the developer was tr)zing to get
requirement Nhen we accept a public street they have to
have to sod the right-of-way.
out of ourlandscape. They
Ahrens: Yeah, but ue have whole areas of our yard. The yard
and a hslf, tJe had most of it unsodded and unseeded and a lot
is an acre
of the other
FIen;r:.r2 aCt.'
June 5 , 799L - Page
Meet i n9
A6
-- l,: sr5ci'ivisi.on have
t:-=i j jr-'s nc: only
areas that are st j.ll just weeds,lo*-s i:-r
Ahrer,=:
Ahrens: LJe I I
t hat : cf t!-redifferent andthsn other lo
more appr opr iis gre :t- b,utyears. AII tdecen: t >.;: e c,
maple tre3 i{c
a visual problem. It,s also a l46ter quality
Yeah and aL] these lots drain into a wetland in the sumrner.
f! never said Lhat the whole lot had to be sodded.
Krau.s: It said all disturbed areas had to be sodded or seeded.
eatzli: t'iy Hhole Iot tras disturbed.Lotus. That's why the brater quality
develcpra:rr'- were disturbed for years
swa mF,). erc there.
AhrenE,: trtC our lots drajntl'rcy't a. h:.. in3 there -
Our whole development drains inLois so poor. A lot of the lots in ourand they drained right dor.rn into the
into Christmas Lak6 and it's one of the problms
Kraus5 Again, we c:an't address those past but we did correct it so.
t
I
+-S
at any rate. I think that I,d hate to see a requirementrees have to deciduous because I think every lot isthink even though some lots that are maybe more exposedshould have the right to have coniferous trees. It rnay bee f or that lot. I think Lhe idea of having tf.r. ,"pt. ii"u-egree. tlho knows if a maple tree worm wili get us jn io--naple trees wiII be gone. I think as long as they'retrees, I don't care what they are. Is theie such; thjng asa
'r
he
f
rm
Bstzli: I Con,t know
Ahrens: r cjon't have anything erse. Everything erse has been brought upand hashed and rehased.
Emmings: r don't know if rve got maybe r.lhat r uant to say. oh! First onpage 6. Eelow !s1 ,OOO,OOO-OO is 22.
Krauss: r know. I was just looking at that. The middle one doesn,t h,ork.If you look at the formula, it doesn,t track well. i"r;""-Sot, in thesecond one you've got 20*. Betr.reen a million and 2 million you,ve got92o,ooo.oo plus 12 of the project varue in excess of l million dorrirs.
Batzli: It should be $1o,OOO.OO shouldn't it?
Krauss: Then does the math work when you get up to 30? you,ve got$3O,OCO.OO in the next one plus .7SZ of project value in excess of 3million dollars but the range.js only 2 to 3 million dollars.
Planni rr3 Coi:',nissi on
June 5, 1991 - Page
tleet i ng
47
be in excess of 2 million.
Belor^r a million aL 2Z and
t^Jhat 's the million dollars?
and site improvements, all.
requirement for the I ot?
Emmi ne.::.: It Ehould
nea'js Ltr t- c -.:r,gsd.
value is il ?".. of?
and oit€ preparation
do you determine the
That h,asn't my point but jt
urhat is the vaIue, whatIt's building constructionof that? So at !,hat point
Emmings: I.Jhat they're planning on spending?
Krauss: Risht ,
Emmings: You uce their numbers?
Kraues: tle 1I, yeah. Unless they typically, well I'm not going to say
typica] Iv Iie. f nrean I only caught somebody lying in a ma jor r.rav once.
They w:re so cbvious about it and it uras a 10 story office building that
you can get jt very easily. Typically the People who are doing these Plansare f:irl;, re:ponsible on this. They are again registered professj.onaLs
and if they bolci face lie, you can report them to their society and to the
State Cornnri.sa ioner of whatever.
Emmings: And jt's something you can check against, you can check uP on
them.
Kr6uss: tie do. You take a Bachman's
lanciscape !alue. uhen you get, there
construct i on F,er square fooL.
catalog 6nd you see, in lerms of
are some ballpark figures for
Krauss: lt's hard for me to ansh,er that except that this ordinance, that
secticn, I probably shouldn't admit it but it goes back to something that
ERt., developed about 15 years ago and it uas written into a series of
ordinances that BRtl staff people did for various communities. I worked
with this san.e standard in Oakdale and from Minnetonka and I can't tell you
why but f know it works.
Emmings: Okay. That's what I wanted to hear I guess. That there's some
experience with it that will tell you Lhat it wiII put enough money into
landscape materials to make the kind of impact t.,e r,Jant to see.
Krauss: Keep in mind it's a minimal too. You set standards.criteria that people have to adhere to. If they have to spendthat to achieve it, that's just the way it is.
You set
more than
Emmi ngs: And then
Am I gc-tting rnixed
Jeff 's comment on the trees made me uronder,
up between, yeah I am. No I'm not I guess.
let's see .
The 3 trees
Krauss: The uay I've administered this in the past is you give them a
urorksheet uith the Eite plan review packet. It breaks out these items and
asks them.
EmniinJs: ok3y. And then my only other question was, where does the 22
come from and r.rhat is that 9oin9 to mean in terms of, is there anything
like a Lypical? I tras trying Lo figure out trhat it meant.
trI a n:,i:-,3 Ccri:,ission
June 5, 19?1 - fage
Heer- i ng
r.;ould L+ rer':ired cn, for example our minimum 1S,OOO square
r.r e se. 3 ic.t- cf subdivisions where they,ll be 15,OOO squareth€ s.r. subdivjsjen will have a lot in it that's 35,OOO orfeeL. I. it the same requirement there? t,ould it make anyrequire 1 tree per 5,OOO square feet of lot?
foot lot. And
f oot I ots a n,j
40,,OOO sguar e
sense to :
there should be 3I think it will be
be deciduous and
You knou I
Ahrens: Yaybe sonre people don't urant that many trees in their yards.
Emni ngs: yeah, that,s right.
'Krauss: I think Jeff raised some real. val,id comments about, is this justan incremental approach, particularly trith the sinsle i;;ii; and the answeris ves it is. you asked is there a vision as to w[at thi;-is going toachieve in e single family neighborhood? No. There isn't. rt,s a fairlyblunt ap;;'oach. It tries to set urornd too much of, f mean r.re can envisionall we wani but in this. ca"e ,isioning means imposing the City,s will on anindi'idual's decision about their proi.ity. And e*r.i I, I-;;;"-"-i;n;" '"time dcing that urith singl.e family homeowners. I don,t have any problem atall Ccing it to anybody who,s developing commercial property or retailPr-cpert;J cr multi-farnily or anything liie that. f "ie*' in.i in a totallydifferent.'coitext. If you're going to refine tnai any fu;a;.r, we,re goingto have to be rnore explicit as to iou,ve got to have, we Hant. floweringshurhs over here and we want someti'rins else or"r in.i.".nJ-i'. ,.rvreluncte.L to co th6t. r think r.rhat ihis is going t" s"i-ri with kind of arreat a): aF'prc,ach is the Joe MiIler tvpe of coinf iil.d dEvelopment. rtserves a p'Jrpose because Lhe value's there in the housing but it's prettyuglv. You g:r b,ack to...town 40 or so years after and it starts to looknice bacause peopre sort of did this tiring over the last 40 or 50 years.l.iha t r're 're trvinsi to do is make sure that the Joe Miller's of the future dothis up front. That there be some modicum of development-in there. AndErian in your deveLopment, people have paid .norgh f;r-;;r;; that they,regoing to do this on their own bv and large. Thia is a smair percentage of*hat's soing to ultinratejy be there. f lon't knor.l if,.t-tn"i,s the case inthe Jo: f{iILer development.
Batzli: But there are lots,haven't done anything more tone boulevard tree. Some of90 out and buy $1OO.OO treespurchased the horne and theytheir mortgage over 30 yearsit. They -iust don't want toAnd sorie of them just, theyof a tax shelter and they'redon't uant to do anything tobut I thi nk it r.rould have imminimums in the number of tr
there are homes in my neighborhood where theyo it than uhat u,as done which means they havethe people did that because they don't ..rant toand I think, now this gets back to if they hadhad had the option of puttjng the trees in, they would have done it. No question about90 out and spend $1SO.OO on a good sized tree.have homes for other reasons. It,s just kindliving there for a couple of years ind theythe yard. There are those kinds of peopleitooproved the neighborhood had there been higherees .
Ernrnings: I guess for myself I,l.l say tha: I think thattrees. f'nr comfortable going to that as the next step.an ir,provement hcwever arbitrary. I think that 2 shouldthe>. should be in the front yard but I don't case where.
rioulCn't care, I con'! care that they're not rnoved to
boul=vald or r.rl.ai-ev'er . I don't care where they are.thir,k r.re i,ai,e to l-,ave this co[re back. Dick?
the
And
front on thethat's al I and I
Richard tJing: JLrst a quick comment as I've Iistened and you use the wordtre€s. In th€ ordinance jt specifies several types. Shade trees,
ornamenLal trees, coniferous trees and...and when we're !alking about trees
f or, I'm -los:ng my trai.n of Lhought here. t,lhen we talk about this 18-61,
the residenLial lots, ute're sPecificallv talking about shade trees and
they're the elms, the ash, the lindens, maples and so forlh. They're the'towering broad trees. .Those-.are Iisted specificaLly but if we just sav
tree, +-hat may be able to be interpretted as ornamental tree also.
EinninS=: I think uhaL I hear is, I think taI ki ng about shade trees.
Ne'll just
a motion to
He're
needsRicha;cj tlin3;: Right but I mean I think it to be specific.
Ern;,i n.;: : LleI I I Lhink we're going to get even mcre specif ic than that .
I thirl. r.rl-rat I've heard uP here is that hJe want Lo have, maybe have sorne
Ii:L= enJ iL nay be a situation r.lhere vou teII them, you're going to have 2
dec jd-:us'si,.ci. trees and we L,ant you to Pick one out of Column A and one
out of Column B. Column A mavbe we PUt a lot of common trees.. Haybe the
ashes enci maytre even maples and other things. I don't know but in the
othei cn" r;)be put some oLher trees like hackberry and kinds of trees that
people dorr't conrrio;'rly plant to try and encourage some diversity in uhat we
hav.,- . I C.i't knor.: but there are things you could do like thaL too
T e,'---:r
Erhart: l-iave one colunrn as the real high value. You could just sav one of-
then h:: '-a be either a sugar maPle or a red oak. That's the highest value
tree. Th.1t rna)' it avoicis the thing of having every third tree 6 sugar
maple. I: n:.ans you'll get some r^rill be red oak and some wiII be sugar
maples but require one to be of the real high vafue and the other ones in
Colurr.n B . I Lhi nk that's a good idea.
KraueE: tlel1 that's n:aybe a question tre can raise with Alan Olson. You're-
looking for specimen tr ees?
Emriings: Yeah, that's right. In the front yard. Go ahead Dick.
Richsrd tjing: Any time tree is mentioned, I Lhink ue have to specify in
this case we'lI call them shade. In other sections it was the boulevard.
I think we're still talking shade Lrees...fences, ornamental trees would bealright. I just think we need to...specify what level of tree r.,e're
tal king about .
Emmings: Okay. Do we have to do anything formal on this?
table it or conLinue the public hearing? Okay, do ue have
Batzli: So rloved. I think we already closed it. Should we reopen it?
PIanni r^,-- Corna,iseion 1leeti ng
June 5,, 1991 - Page 49
Plsr,n!r:;
-'Iu ne f,, l
Conmission
Qc1 - E =aa
Meet i n9
50
fIeJ:.: .'.-: c:n jugL conLinue action on the item.
OLsc ' : :-. ,.i.l I te La.:k
Emr.ings: Eu: uil. l it be back as a public hearing?
Ctlsen; Lle cjon,t have to.
KrausE: llot unless you want to re-open it as such.
Conrad: It L,a. published this time and nobody carne.
Emminge: Alright. So do ue have a motion or !Jl-rat?
Batzli: tle moved to table.
Conr'aC: Sec o nd .
Batzli moved' conrad se:onded to table action on zoning and subdivisionordinance Amendment ro amend sections regardine l;;J;;pi;; ind treepreservation requirements- Alr voted in-favor-anJ ah;;;;i"i carried-
APPROVA'. O 9 MINUTES:Chairman Emmings noted the Hinutes of1991 as presented.the PlannjngConmission meeting dated Hay 15,
CI TY CO UNCIL UPDAT E:
Emm i ngsthet ev
There's
: tiey.t is a long report from the planning Director. Let,sc-:'ybody read it. Is.there someLhing in-here paul on item 2sor'ethi n9 that could potentialrv go to her" on June 12th.
a ssu me
Krau3=: yes, in fact there was a handout that r^,as on your desk tonight.[,,]e are to the pojnt where we are going to, we short ]isted the number ofconsultanLs ue urant to use, or considJ. r"r irr. *ri"i-q"iiiiy program.
Emnings: That's the next item. That,s.item 3. Go ahead.
Krauss: Okay, I see peter Olin. I'lI Sut to that too. Anyway, we,relooking to, r.Je've agreed to a proceJur! with the Hayor and the councilurhere we're going to try to set up a review ""rrifi". ""rJ.i=ua of some ofyou and some of the City council. Ir's not clear h;; ;;;;.- At this pointm going to sav whoever wants to come. tJe realize it,s a morning thatsomebociv has to give up but this is a pretty important J."i"ior,. Not onryis this 9oin9 to cost a lot of money, 6ut more importaniii it,s soing tohave a major bearins on water quarity and envi ron;; "a; r
';;
";ection issuesfor a good Iong time in the community and we,d like i"-s!i-i|." best crosssection of opinion on who's the best candidate to ""ii iiir.r-"". Ne thinkof the s firms thar ue selected, short listed, ttrei-can'ai'i oo tne job butthe questic,rr is, is there a good fit wirh the'"ip.ftiti""i-aie for thisuork product. Is there a good working re lati onsi.ri p
-th"i "y"I:
=.. . It,s ani nterview.
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COI/II.IISSION
REGULAR IIEETING
JULY 17, 1991
Chairman Emmings called the meeting to order at 7:40 p.m
Tim Erhart, SLeve Emmings, Brian Batzli and Jeff Farmakes
Ladd Conrad, Annette EIIson and Joan Ahrens
P.l.anner; Kathy
PauI Krauss, Planning Director; Jo Ann Olseh, SeniorAanenson, Planner II and Charles Folch, Asst. City Enginber
HEtlBERS PRESENT :
I,IEMB ERS ABSENT:
STAFF SENT:
Jo Ann
pub l i c
Olsen presented the staff
hear i ng to order.report. Chairman Emmings ca]Ied the
Batzli moved, Erhart secondedfavor and the motion carried-
to close the public hearing_ All voted inThe public hearing was closed.
Emmings: Jeff, do you have any comments on this?
Farmakes: I have no comments on this.
Emmi ngs: Alright. Brian?
Batzii: Jo Ann, can you poinL again exacLJ.y whereputting the deck.
Olsen: I!'s going to be on the east side...through
they're goins, to be
the wetlands here. . ,
Batzli: JusL from a philosophical standpoint, wiII ue be encouragingtraffic throL'sh the wetland? r mean obviousry your intent is to ieeipeople on the superdeck but will there be more trash? people jumpingthe deck? l.,hatever into the wetland areas,
mor e
off
Olsen: t here they have these elsewhere in Carver Beachthat hasn't been, except with the Hennepin County park
those and they haven't stated that was a problem. Thatin favor of these because of aII the people that reallyvegetation. If anything appreciate uetlands more. Aswe don't have a concern about that-
and the Arboretum,
Preserve that hasthey've been reallyget in and see thefar as staff. No,
Batzli: r guess r tend to think of the Arboretum, for exampre there's veryf eur kids that go in there but we're going to have here a playground typearea that I think it wiII be frequented more by kids r,rithout adultsupervision. Mv onrv concern is that bre get a bunch of kids throwing stuff
PUBLIC HEARING:
IETLAND ALTERATION PERI.IIT TO PERHIT INSTALLATION AND CONSTRUCTION OF A'9UPERDECK NATURE l.lA!Kl,AcRoSS THE IIETLAND To CoxNecr lnr ruo xreH enees rNHERMAN FIELD PARK LOCATED SOUTH OF ORCHARD LANMCITY OF CHANHASSEN .
PlanningJuIy L7,
Commission Meeting
1997 - Page 2
into the wetland and tooling around in the wetland. tJe might be
encouraging it a little bit is my only concern. I think you're right.
Iike to see us have more access 'to the wetland. Have peoPle be able to
appreciate it and go through there but I think that's a concern that I
don't know if it's been addressed or if it's something we need to talk
about or even consider.
I'd
Batzli: No maLter what vou build, thev're going
it. If it's a sign, it will probablv encourage
not supposed to do it. Great, let's do it-
olsen: I guess I don't know what you could do to Prevent tha! '
Ol sen : t^,lhat we coul d maybe
the Park and Rec Commission
be happening next year that
have like something so Lhe
wetland.
olsen: No, that's not Part of the Park.
borders it. That's the Ziegler ProPertv.
Zlegler
do is to, I could bring that concern back Lo
and maybe., again if there's anything going to
they can look at what, signage 6r maybe even
kids can't climb from the boardwalk inLo the
toir.be able to climb over
They'I I say oh ue're
Batz]i: I don't knor^,. My only concern is by putting the deck through
there that you,ll be encouraging traffic through the wetland in ways that
you don't anticiPaLe right now ' otherwise I'm in favor of it'
Emmings: Tim?
Erhart: I think the concePt's just fine. t'Jhat's Andv's Acres up there on
the drawing? My drawing says Andy's Acres. where you said outlot B, mine
says Andy's Acres. t^lhat is that?
olsen: That's the Ziegler ProPerty and that's like Andy's Acres is a
real ly old subdivision.
Erhart: okay, so now it's just Part of Lhe park?
The park is right here. It
It's the daughter of Delores
Er hart:
have we
Erhart: 0h I see. Down onlocation of LraiI a Iter naLe
right into the wetland. Is
west of that it says Minnewashta Park so what
kind of sticks in the whole area then.
the Iower right hand corner you see aPProximate
1. tlhat is that all about? The arrow points
that just the arrow's not comPlete?
okay. Then to thegot? One Iot that
Krauss: There's actually tr.ro subdivisions north of the park. One being
MinnewashLa Park and the other being Andy's Acres.
Emmi ngs: It says it over here too.
confusing but that I'linnewashta Park is the name of theKrauss: t^Je I I it's
next subdivision.
PlanningJuly U,Commission tleet i ng
7997 - Page 3
Olsen: They've got it set up into the different stages andphases. The only trail that wiII be going into the Hetlandsuperdeck traiI.
differentis that
you caII it a superdeck?that thaL's just the terminology that they used.
Er hart: That's common terminology?
Olsen: For the wood part.
Erhart: tlhy doO.Lsen: I thi nk
Erhart:
Before itgoing to
Ol sen :
wouldn't aI low
Okay,
To the
Er har t :
OIsen:
Erhart: To thconstructed of
OIsen:
You show up here on the east side of the superdeck, okayhits the dots but yet that,s uithin the wetland limits.be fill? The east end of the superdeck it shows a blue
so blue,Is thatIine.
Krauss: The jagged blue line?
Erhart: The straight blue Iine.
Olsen: Yeah I don't know if that,s just they exLended their...
Erhart:The
Risht
west.
I see that. The superdeck would all be the bo;r dwalk. Ueany f illins.
so the superdeck goes all the way back.
edge.
e edge of the wetland. What,s the superdeck going to be2
Erhart:
ol sen :
Erhart:
OIsen:
with the
Some say
knou .
ft's wood.
Treated?
The details on
I don't know.
l.lell it depends
boarduaIks intreated wood i
that, I believe that.
lot ofThere's been a adverse data coming out.
on what tyPe ),ou use. Yeah, we looked into thatCrimson Bay and some say yes. TreaLed urood is bad.s, actually I don't know exactly what. If they even
Er hart: I
research .
Erhart:
There's
A I thoughjust been
I don't knora-
a lot of data
guess I would just suggestI don't mean spec ifical Iy.that maybe you do a ]ittle bit of
O]sen: Nhen they put out for bid for it?
I supposed there's a lot of docks.
coming out IateIy about !reated wood.
Planning
July \7,
Commission Meet i ng
7997 - Page 4
Emmings: Dave Headla brought that up a long time ago. l.lere you here?
that time.Erhart: Yeah, I remember that and ever since
Emmings: My recollection is that we talked to somebody from the State
about that and they said they didn't think it Has a concern. I haven't
heard anything about it since that time.
Erhart: Okay. t,lell there might be instances. I think thaL's the onlv
thing t had on it. Like I say, it looks ]ike fun.
Emmings: I don't have'any additional comments. I think it
reasonabLe proposal . Unless anvbody's got any, does anybody
else they ulant Lo say on this? Is there a motion?
Iooks
have
Iike a
anythi ng
Erhart: I move that the Planning Commission recommend aPProvaI
Alteration Permit *9L-2 Lo allow construcLion within 2OO feet of
wetLand and the installation of a superdeck Per staff's ProPosal
conditions arfd the plan shown dated, what's Lhe date on this?
Emmi ngs: June 13th -
of Wet I and
a class A
and
Erhart: 13th. Okay.
Emminss: I'Il second it. Is there any discussion?
Batzli: I urould just Iike the city to consider the issue of encouraging
people into the wetlands. I would encourage them to move sl.owly and see'how this one works out before they Plan a lot more of these'
Erhart moved, Emmings seconded that the Planning commission recommend
approval of l.tetland Alteration Permit *9L-2 to allow construction within
z'oo feet of a class A wetland and the installation of a suPerdeck nature
trail throush a Class A wetland as shot|,n on Plans dated June 13' 1991 urith
the folloui ng conditions:
1. Type III erosion control will be placed betHeen aII construction areas
and wetland limits.
The super deck nature trail cannot be installed during waterfowl
breeding season and shall be located as to minimize the imPact on
vegetation.
There shall be no
wetlands.
filling or dredging permitted uithin the class A
2
AII voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously-
PlanningJuly 77,
Commission Heeti ng
7997 - Page 5
Public Present:
Nam e Arirlr ess
Harge Shorba ' Hwy . 1O1
Jo An Olsen presented the staff reportcalled Lhe public hearing Lo order.on this item. Chairman Emmings
Marge Shorba: I just have a question.
Emmi ngs: t^lou I d you please stand up and identify yourself.
Harge shorbs: Mv name is Marge shorba. l.Je oh,n property on Hhry 101 south.Right after vou 9o over the bridge to the left- r'm just not quite surewhere this is with our property. r guess what r want to make sure that itis far enough east because the frontage road wirr now be runnlng in frontof our property. The new highway running directly behind it. At one ofLhe other meetings they had promised us that they wourd build a dirt soundmound adjacent to our property for the noise of the ner^r highway.
Olsen: Those plans are still
PUBLIC HEARING:
I.IETLAND ALTERAT ION PERMIT FOR THE REALIGNMENT OF HI.IY 1O1 ( SOUTH LEG ) AND
ALSO THE I.IEST 78TH STREET DETACHMENT AND THE ].IITIGATION OF APPROXIMATELY2.5 ACRES OF I.IETLAND. CITY OF CHANHASSEN.
Marge Shorba: Okay, I just wanted to make sure that this wouldn't betaking any, that there still would be room for that mound.
olsen: oh veah. Actuallv this is part of with that design of the street.This is not.
Marge Shorba: Nothing else then?
Olsen: I think it's pretty well south of you where the creek?
Harge Shorba: Okay, we own property right after you cross the creek.
Olsen: Oh okay, to the south? It shouldn't.
Marge Shorba: [.,e own two Iots there .
Emmings: Is there anyone else who has any questions or comments on this?
Erhart moved, Batzli seconded to clo6e the public hearing- AII voted infavor and the motion carried. The public hearing ras closed-
Emmings: Tim, have you got any comments on this proposal?
Erhart: No, I don't have any on this one.
Planning
July \7,
Commission Meet i ng
7991 - Page 6
Emmi ngs: Br ian?
olsen:
yar ds .
Yeah, Lhey'd be getting into that. Thev'd be over 1,Ooo cubrc
BatzIi: t^le can't do that administratively?
Krauss: [,le can. PubIic projects aie exempted from that requirement.
Batzli: Okay. Good. That's al] I have.
Emmings: Jeff?
Farmakes: I have no further comments.
Emmings; I don't either ' Is there a motion on this?
Batzli: I' move lhe Planning Commission recommend approval of t,etland
Alteration Permit 91-3 shown on Plans dated Julv 2, f99L with the
conditions set forth in the staff report.
Erhart: Second .
Batzli moved, Erhart seconded that the Planning commission recommend
approval of !{etland Alteration Permit *91-3 as shoun on Plans dated July 2
1991 and with the following conditions:
1. The wetland mitigation area tlill be increased to 1-65 acres and be
designed to meet the six Fish and t"Jildlife criLeria-
2. Type III erosion control shall be installed between the existing
wetland area and aII disturbed areas-
3. AII disturbed areas shalI be spread with topsoil/muck from the Proiect
to revegetate the area with existins vegetation.
4. No alter at ion/construction shaII be allowed during traterfowl breeding
season.
5. No direct storm water discharge into the wetland will be Permitted.
6- The storm water pond shall be seeded with HnDot roadside mix for steeP
slopes ( clover ).
AII voted in favor and the motion carried unaniitously -
Batz]i; Is an earth work permit going to be required to do this? Is that
going to be brought in separately? Are they going to have to move a Iot of
dirt for this?
P UBLIC ARING:
ORDINANCE AMEN H T ARIFY BED
ESTABLISHMENTS.
Jo Ann 0lsen presenLed the staff
publ. ic hearing to order.
report. Chairman Emmings ca]Ied the
Erhart moved, Farmakes seconded to close the public hearing.favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was clostd.All voted in
Emmings: Does anybody got anything they want to
Erhart: Yeah. t^lhat in our ordinance says Lhatto have running water or insulation or heat?
tal k about?
this bui lding's even going
Olsen: t^JeII for it to get anthe Building Department.
occupancy permit. You'd have to go through
Erhart: f t's aIl clear?
Emmings: Isn't this also a conditional use?
Olsen: Or i nter im use .
Emmings: So if anybody's going to bring one of theseable to see it. It's not just a permitLed use.,-so wethings like whether or not the accessory structure fitone that we looked at did. t^tas it compatible uith theso forth.
in, we're goi.ng to be'd be able to judge
in in a way like theother building and
Erhart: I missed lhat meeting.this garage? t^Jere Lhey going to
Hor., Nere they goi ng to
have a bathroom in the
put plumbing in
r oom?
OIse]]; You mean the one we jus! processed?
Erhart: Yeah -
O]sen: Yeah, they were even adding a new septic site.
Erhart: Oh they were. See on this condition use permit, ue have toalmost, r mean we have to show a reason to deny a conditiona.L use if it's apermitted use. That's why r'm saying, if there's sorne other ordinance thatalso ties into this that requires it properly constructed for humanoccupation,
Olsen: The Building Code requires that.
Erhart: Okay. If ue're soing to do this, I like the idea of making iLbroader to accessory buildings because if you say garage then it ]ooks ]ikewe're doing this for one particurar individual. The other comment r hadwas on your second page there. on owner occupied single famiry home whichnot more than 5 rooms and so forth and so far. seven or Iess consecutivedays urith the same person. Let's say a couple rents this thing. Theycourd alternate back and forth one week renting one and the next week
Planning Commission Heet i ngJuly 77, 7991 - Page 7
Planning
July 77,
Commission Meet i ng
1997 - Page 8
renting to the other person. Refer this to the attorneys here. If you
change that to same person or Persons, I don't knou if that would have any
effect bul it's possible with that Ianguage that somebodv could rent it on
a monthly basis. If anybody cares.
Olsen: Person or persons.
Batzli: r was kind of leaning towards I didn't know if anvbodv cared -
Erhart: The scenario that I could see hrppening is if the place gets run
down and it could very easily turn into a boarding house. l.lhere somebody
would start using it as a more Permanent rbsidence. That does haPPen-
Batzli: I guess I still think of bed and breakfast in Ergland where they
were permanent residence. I didn't know why it matters
Farmakes: I stayed in some in California where you have a limit of 2 davs
that you can stay there and it was a local ordinance.
Emmings: And was it enforced in your experience? Did the PeoPIe that run
them.
Farmakes: It Has in the literature and I asked about it. She just said it
was a local ordinance. I imagine for tlhat you just talked about. There uas
a limit. I didn't get inlo it any further than that but that's how they
qualified as a bed and breakfast.
Batzli: Nhy do we care?
Erhart: Because I don't think we want to turn it into a hotel . I thought
Lhe intent r.ras.
Olsen: This gives us enough that if it did become a ProbLem we could bring
them in and say it's noL meeting the interim use Permit or conditional use
permit.
Krauss: I think the reason for it though is boarding houses have
tradiLionally had the potential , if not -the reality of causing neighborhood
problems. There's a different element that lives in a boarding house. A
transient as opposed to somebody tlho's Iooking to get au,ay for the weekend
with their wife or sPouse or [hatever
Erhart: That's what I had.
Emmings: Okay, Br ian?
Batzli: I think that makes sense to make the change that b,e're talking
about there. The interesting thing I thought the detached accessorv
structure, do you feel comfortable that since iL's a conditional use that
we'd have enough leverage over it or do you t{ant to Put some sort of intent
to 9o along with when we would allow the accessorv structure. Like
provided that such deLached accessory structure fits in r,lith the character.
t^,hatever we h,ant to put in there - Do you Hant to Put something in there?
Planning
JuIy 17,
Commission Heet i ng
7991 - Page 9
Emmi ngs: Sure . That's a
Balz I i r
for that Otherwise I agree
one . . .
Erhart: Should u,e even
has to already exist.
good idea "
that r,re're looking Ii ke we're kind of doing this
9o farther than that? Say the existing structure
Batzli: So they don't. build another one?
That it has to be at Ieast 10 years old or 50
BaLzli: t^JhaL,s the difference?
O.Isen: Yeah.
Farmakes: That's when the walkway, just build a wal kway out to it-
OIsen: tle discussedyears o).d but lhen.
that.
Olsen: I think it,s probably a good idea to dojust built to similar architectural? See that'sit was rea]Iy hard to pinpoint. I think we aIIhard to explain.
somethi ng
what, we
know what
Ii ke that . . So
discussed it andue mean but it's
Emmi ngs :property.
but -
t,e]I it should be compatible withI don't know f suppose compatible
other buildings on thea uord that's aurfully broad
theis
Erhart: Something with the style and nature.
Krauss: t^le're comfortable with compatible. It,sglinches a little bit but just simply because itbe able a little inconsistent with it. But we'vei n the ordi nance .
the City Attorney thatgives us more IaLi tude
used that same term a
toIot
Emmings: Okay, r,re'LL do that.
have.BatzI i: That's all. I
Emmings: Jeff .
Farmakes: Evervthing has been discussed up until this point. The onethins that r had brought up right now is the issue that if, as r understoodit if they built a warkway out to that gatehouse, they would have conformedto the existing sLructure. It r.lould have made it attached right?
Olsen: Right. tJell iL had to be a tealkway brith a roof .
Farmakes: Right buL r berieve that, a friend .of mine just built a houseout in Afton and did not Nant a detached garage so he just built a walkway.rt's just a little stick roof with sort of a dock type floor off to it. soit got around the ordinance in that way. I'm just wondering if somebodywished to Lurn a barn inlo a rentable situation or something other than a
Planning
July 17,
Commission Heet i ng
!997 - Page 10
carr iage house, to
do it? If that's
qualify for that do they
an existing structure.
this you would be abLe to
r.,hat's considered attached
just have to build a walkway to
use that barn.
then righL? You can just
for, and I believe we ]imi! the
Olsen:- WeIl with
Farmakes: That's
build a wa.I kway .
Batzlir But they do have a conditional use
number of rooms.
Farma kes: It Has 5
would
wasn't it?
BaLzli: They have to come back in, Yeah.
Emmings: t^Je could simply define, we could define attached
that shares a common wall tlith the principle structure or
that and that would eliminate that problem.
Emmings: Yeah, once it's attached because they've already got the maximum
numbei of rooms in the main building. Just by attaching it they can't do
anything because that uron'! geL them anything extra- I suPPosed you've got
control that way. The other thing we could do I suPpose, if this
situation, I don't know hor.t often attached structure is used in our
ordi.nance but do ue have any requirement in attached garages in anything?
I don't think so.
Kr auss :
gar ages -
Actually we do have one style of housing that requires attached
Emmings: Okay, so if attached is sharingprinciple structure, would that eliminate
]i ke it would.
structure is one
something Iike
a wall in common with the
these problems or no!? It seems
Krauss: In facl that,s something that ure need a little clarification of.
l.,e've had a couple of inslances where if you have an accessory structure
you have one sj.de yard setback. Detached. If you're having attached' it's
a different standard and we've had.some people Lry Lo play with that ]ack
of a definition to get the best deal on puLting the building in the side
yar d -
Krauss: Lrell actually I'd like to be able to bounce it off the building
official because Buildins Code and Zoning ordinance tends to differ in
intent and the results we get on that Particular issue. I think we need to
work out something that works urith boLh.
Emmings; okay why don't you, there's something we can head off maybe.
Erhart: Can these rooms be in the basement?
Emmings: Theoretically but again it's got to meet Code.
Olsen: And have the windows and egress.
PlanningJaly 77,
Commission Meeti ng
1991 - Page 11
Erhart: t^lindows, that's aII staLed?
Krauss: Realistically r don't know how much we're going to see of this. tleonly have one in toHn nou,. There's a potential with the seminary Lhat theymay develop the two homes as adjunct kind of accessory guest houses butwith the development Lhat we've seen and then with the rural. development upon the bluff, there's just no place else for it to go.
Erhart: Is something happening.urith the seminary?
Krauss: NelI it's kind of an ongoing odyssey. t^le've been talking to theiame individual for about a year nowl
Erhart: But nobody's putting money into it yet?
Krauss: tlelI they claim to be on the verge of submitting an application.
Farmakes: I have no further comments.
Emmings: okav- r agree that it should sav structure rather than garage,Otherwise .everything f 've got has already been discussed unless anybodyelse wants to do anvthing further, is there a motion on Lhis? Brian wirydon't you do it?
Batzri: r move that the planning commi.ssion adopt amendments to the citycode as set forth in the recommendaLions of the Jury 10, 1991 staff reportwith the folrowing changes, rn section 1 where it says person. rt wouldread person or persons. And at the end of section 2, paragraph 4 it wourdread, provided that such detached accessory structure is compatibLe r.riththe existing principle structure. Now r say that and I didn't include theword architectural . I almost wanted to compatible arcnitecturally with theexisting principle structure and compatibre with the bed "nJ u.".kt.=t tiJeuse. Somethi ng Iike that.
Olsen: But the one h,e just did Nasn'turote architecturally too but the one
Chaska brick.
, when I was drafting this
ure just did had barn .siding
too f
VET SUS
Batzli: I don't think we're looking architecturally.Iooking more that it fits inLo the bed and brbakfastmakes it tough to put into,
I thi nk
concept.
we'reThat's what
Emmings: f 'II second your motion. Is there any discussion?
Batzli: I'd like Jo Ann to think about it a
comes up with something better before it getsthat .
little bit more and if sheto City Council, recommend
Batzli moved, Emmings seconded that the planning commission recommend toadopt the amendments to the City Code as follows:
SECTION 1-Sect i on 2O-l of the Chanhassen City Code is amended byof "bed and breakfast" to read:amending the definition
Planning
JuIy 17,
Commission Meet i ng
7997 - Page 12
An owner occupied single family home in Hhich not
rooms are renLed on a nightly basis for a period
consecutive days by the same Person or Persons-
be provided Lo residents and overnighL guests.
more than five (5)
of seven (7) or Iess
Meals may or may not
SECTION 2.
read:
Section 20-252( 4) of the chanhassen City Code is amended Lo
(4) Not more than five (5) rooms may be rented. AIl rooms must
be located in the pr i nc i pa l ' dule l l i ng excep! that one room may be
located in a detached accessory. structure, Provided that such detaohed
accessory structure is comPatible nith the existing PrinciPle
structure.
AII voted in favor and the motion carried-
olsen: His driveway. tJell it was going to be adiusted because of the fire
hydrant.
Emmings: No, but I thought he was actually
one meeting. At one City Council meeLing it
Council meetings or one?
to,
has
90r ng
tas,
when I was
he been at
here at
two City
APPROVAL OF HINUTES: The Minutes of the Planning commission meeting dated
June 19, :r991I were so noted with one excePtion. commissioner Batzli noted
that under Members Present it ]ooked as though he, along h,ith Annette
EIIson had arrived late, He wanted it clarified to show that only Annette
El Ison had arrived Iate.
CITY COUNCIL UPDATE.
Krauss: There,s acLua]Iy a couple interesting things in there I think. one -
minor one. The Roger Byrne plat, the one that ue discussed here ulith
whether or not the dr iveway shouLd be paved. tJe were directed to go, the
deLermination Has not to Pave the drivet"ray because the sLreet wasn't but we -
were directed to go talk to the City Engineer - See if there's a way to
minimize erosion problems. After the meeting rae did si! doun with Lhem and
they told u6 there really wasn't a good way of doing that. ThaL paving the -thing is really the only way of dealing urith it. so we urent back to the
city council with the recommendation that the thing be Paved but it not be
paved to the 20 foot Hidth. That it be paved to a width thaL's consisLen!
t:ith the fact that there's a fire PIug on one side and there Nere trees and -
that garage pad area on the other . Ultimately that r.ras the r.ray the counci I
approved it so it wiII be a paved drivewav. It's kind of a modified
pavement. I believe the B),rne's found that acceptable as a comPromise-
Emminss: I thought he had decided to Put his road in a different Place-
Am I Hrong about that?
Krauss: Just Lhe one.
Emmings: Didn't he talk about actuaLly putting his driveway in a different -
place alLogeLhe)'? Okay, I made it up.
Planning
July 77,
Commission Meet i ng
199f - Page 13
Batzli: I t hought
somethi ng too . Is
somebody got a variance tothat a different guy?
bui.ld their driveway or
to be shared and so he was going to move his so they'dit urasn't going to r.,or k that they would be shared .
Ol.sen: It
be sepa r a te
was goi ng
because
Emmi ngs: Risht .
bai li ng me out.
dr i veu.ray .
Maybe that's what I'm thinkins
And why is that road not paved?
of. Okay. Than k
The road iLself.
you for
Not the
Krauss: chairman Emmings, you're dealing with a neighborhood where thereare no good answers. The road doesn't go anyurhere out it sort of does. Itactually is a thru road nou if you wind back up the hilI. I thinkultimately we're going to find that the surface water management plan, thewater qua).itv element in terms of Lhe list of things that it's going toPrioritize to do is going to teII us to do things iiLe that for thai reasonalone- over time ve got to believe all the roads in the city that aren,tpaved, and there's very few of them right now HiIl be paved becausemaintenance cost gets pretty excessive - But it,s just one of those things.There's no good reason. Anolher action that was tiken, the Kurvers point2nd Addition, Final plat Lras approved. trre did meet wiih tlnDot. There wascontinuing concern but it was concluded that they would go urith, they'd beallowed to 9o with a.cur-de-sac. There was a concern or our concern washow do we upgrade Lhat existing curb cut to make it safe. Ue,ve had a longstanding concern that MnDot really doesn't have a very high standard theyenforce on TH 1o1 . And frankly we sLiII have that "on".ri because MnDotdoesn't see themselves maintaining the road for very long but ue did meettrith MnDoL at the site. Jo Ann was out there r^rith 6ave iempel from ourengineering department and there are some improvements that are goin9 to bemade to the accel and decel Iane. They're not major improvements but itwill make for a safer intersection. And the finai plat was approved withthaL condition. The other items that uere taken by the councii are verystraight f ortrard. rn your packet r gave you some information abouL Kati-ryAanesin our new sLaff member uho you,ve ,net. tle,re expecting real goodthings from Kathv and are very excited to have her woriing *ith us. Kathywas brought on board, as you read for a couple of reasons. our work roadcontinues to increase and Jo Ann has asked to go on a 4 day work week andule needed to ba.lance those Lu,o out. tle think Kathy,s experience is goingto be realrv ideallv placed here and one of the things we'lr be working 6nright away is a sign ordinance and a lot of the code enforcement typestuff. some of the projects that wirl be coming along so you'II be' seeingher come before you with some project revie*s in the near future. Thesurface t^,ater Management program conti.nues to progress. Jeff say in on theinterview panel that we had approximatery 4 weeks ago. t,le intervier.red Sfinalist firms and most of the city councir was there. The Hayor and Hike,Tom tlorkman and ursula. rn fact r think the entire city councir was there,This was a whittling down process. He started with 16 f i.rms to respond toa preliminary request. t^,e got it down to 5 and the group was verysupportive of, well basicallv it came down to a primary discussion bet!,reentwo firms. And the Bonestroo firm was ultimately ar.larded Lhe contract andwe're finaling up the contract language Nith them right now. Bonestroo hasbeen doing some very good work for us Iately. Bonestroo is the firm thatwor ked with Eagan on their water quaLity pran which is really the one thatpeople look at. Thev're working urith Maple Grove on a combined projecL
Planning
July 77,
Comnrission tleet i ng
f997 - Page !4
that is similar Lo ours, They pitched in at the last moment and really
helped us out on the ComPrehensive PIan. Trying to smooth out the issues
before they came up at the Metro Council and right now we have them doing
our, what we call our Comp Sewer and tlater studv. It's a study of how we
actually bring service to the area that we expanded and now we can Provide
service to. So Ne've got a good working relationship uith them and we hoPe
to have them under contract in the next few weeks and get together the task
force and start work. So I think vou'Il be seeing results of that Pretty
soon. Things are also starting to come together on the TH 5 corridor - As
you're aurare, working on the TH 5 corridor and determining what should be
in the study area. was a mandated of Counci.I when they adopted the
Comprehensive PIan. You had already made that recommendation as weII and
aboul a month and a half ago we did have a tour. Bus tour of the TH 5
corridor. Ue had along BiII l'larsh from the university as trell as a
Iandscape archilect from Barton Aschman urho's helping us right now in
downtown design project. There }.as a Iot of excitement generated by that
bus tour and is a fo1low up to that, we've been negotiating to Put together
u p.og.., that wiII combine the talent of the, primarill of the Universitv.
The University Urban Design Center has a lot of comPuter modeling exPertise
and they're very inLerested in doing sort of an experimental Project. sort
of how do you envision Nhat's going to hapPen here and then you can PIay
with it. I mean it,s actually urhat they caII an CAD CAM system and you can
set up different scenarios and see what they'II look like. The Arboretum
interestingly enough is also going to be participating in this uith us.
causing me a little bit of trepidation, I'd like to see their role a little
more defined because of meetings I've relayed to you out Lhere but I lhink
it,s good that we,re bringing them on the inside instead of bumping heads
on the outside. So hopefully again you'II be seeing something dotln the
pike in the not loo distant future with that. The HRA is going to look at
this program tomorrow night. tle're using HRA funds to pay for the city's
share of doing the sludy. I've got to sit down with the city Hanager and
clap out the work program but iL's our anticipation that the work effort
itself as far as it has to be coordinated obviously with Lhe city council
arrd Ll,e HRA but Lhe primary dialogue. to get Lhe stuff together and off the
ground would be with the Planning commission. so you'Il be getting exposed
io that in depLh as that comes Logether. I had a few oLher things. oh'
one thing l threw in there and it's Peri.pherally related to the surface
urater and to lhis design study and it gets a little esoteric but we've been
Iookirrg into getting a geograPhic information system. The GIS- It's a
buzz word a lot of lhings around the city and they're fairly exPensive to
get into but now that we're able to piggyback it on two major Proiects ' the
cost goes down considerably. The GIS system is a comPuter generated data
base of a]I city functions and it's based uPon a series of layers based
upon the city map. The layers could include the utility svstem. The city
topography. You could put variances. You could put where you have
complainLs. You could put building Permits. You couLd Put zoning
violations and you can layer this thing altogether and it really
facilitates manipulating the data. Making it available to us uhen we're
writing reports. Making things available to citizens brhen they want to
check on a properLy they're Iooking at buying.
Emmings: You put aII your overlay districts on there. All the mapping
that you've done urith trees.
Pl a nni n9JuIy 17,
Commission Meet i ng
L99L - Page 15
Krauss: Or wetlands. Information and you can generate any kind of may you
want to out of this and it's a centralized. Right now this information isgenera).Iy available in 3 dozen draws and 4 offices. you've got to put ittogether and iL's not exact and it's difficult to update because there,sdifferenL bases. It's really a wonder u,,hat you can do with this stuff.ft's somethi.ng tha! we've looked at trying Lo budget for the last couple ofyears and real]y it's very tough to bite lhat big a bullet but now we'regeLting as a part of the storm waLer plan, we,re getting a Iot of the Cj.tybase mapping done in digiLized format anyway. It doesn,t cosL them anymoreto do it the old fashion h,ay on myrars than to do it off of a computer workstaLion. end we structure the program in such a way that we're gettingenough product ouL of that arld out of the TH s study that we,ve really gota significant percentage of what we need to get this system off the ground.Hopeful Iv in the not too distant future vou'Il be seeing the benefiti ofthat- r hope our information for you wilr be more precis". our ability tofolIow up on things will be greater, our responsiveness should be betterso that wirl be an interesting thing to forrow. t,hat r have attached he;-eis a report that Nas prepared by Hartley Associates trho's a consultantwho's wor ked wilh the city on our computer needs. The person who's helpingus tie aII this together. rn your packet r threw in an item on r.loon varlei).itigation. It Nas dated June 2oth and there's since been some updaLesfrom this. As vou're aware, we developed a new grading and mining andearth work permitting process Iast year. rt was done partially in responseto Hoon Valley but it was also done guite legitimately to respond to anarea that r^re had very Iittre in the way of regulatory contror. Moon Valleywas involved, as you recall in there from the start. They pa:-ticipated.Thev had copies of alI the ordinances. Their attorneys were at all themeetings. ttell the ordinance once it uras adopted gave them 6 months toapply for a permit. Moon Val.Iey in spite of being reminded by registeredretter several times to appry, refused to do so. At the time the 5 monthswas up, when r.re were on the verge of taking action against Lhem, theypre-emptivelv filed suit against us claiming ure had no right or authorityto regr-rlate in rhis case. The Judge, Judge cannins ,,o*n in chaska saidLhat that rdas wrong. ue did have the right to reguiate. Gave them anaddilional 30 davs to make application to the city- They have retained aplanning consultant who both Lhe City Attorney and I are famliar ulith overthe vears and who is a tegitimate and responsicle professional. He came inand said he'd only been given, this tras virtually the ureek that the Judgehad said vour sluff was due. He came in and said they were just giren iheauthority to r,Jor k on the project and that he needed enough time to get ittogether. rn the interest of trying to be cooperative and since noihir,guas going on out there at the moment that ure felt ule had to react to, u,egave him an additional 30 days which r.ras up until the end of June. And wehave retters from our Attorney 9oin9 back and forth confirming that. t^lerlthat time period passed and r got a call from the planning consultant onMonday indicating Lhat there's much more data that Lhey need that theyhaven't acquired vet and they want to do soil borings and other sort ofresponsible investigation. r said thaL's fine. r undersLand t^rhy you needthis stuff but whv wasn't it done 8 months ago and he's craiming that heneeds anoLher 1to 2 months to prepare the application. f think forobvious reasons m growing increasingly frustrated with their whoremanner in handling this and I don't how much of it frankly is due to theowner of the property who you've met, Tom Zwier or his attorney but inspeaking to our atLorneys, t^re already unilaterally extended Judge canning's
Planning
July 17,
Commission Meet i ng
f991 - Page 15
The weather station would be
on submitLing plans for a PUD
order for them to comply in the interest of being cooperative. They busted
that deadline. [^le are now going back to the Judge and saying that thev're
in violation of his order and asking him to shut them down. Now whether or
not he'II do that is open to some question but ue really want to keep the
heat on this. I think they're making a good faith effort, or at least the
consultant is to comply but I'm not sure that he has the backing of the
property owner and again we want to keep the fLame to their feet. We'lI be
Ietting the City Council know this action on Monday so they can confirm
that they Nant us to Proceed along this route. But that's where it stands
right now, At this point I don't expect to see anything in our hands until
sometime in SePtember. .
Batzli: So you've already done that or you're going to ask the City
Council?
Krauss: t^je're going to ask the City CounciL for authorization to handle it
ln.i ,r.v or jusi baiicatly teII them we're in the process of doing this.
Let us know if this is a problem - Anytime we oPen the ciLy to Iitigation
we,d like the blessings of the council. At least to have them fully
informed but this is pretty much consistenL urith what we've been doing all
ilong. t^le have been as patient as I think anybody coul.d possibly be on
this.
Emm i ngs :AIr i ght .
I noticed in lhe
Ryan.
Ryan announced.
Er hart :newspaper this week, was it opus that announced?
0lsen:
Er har t :t^thich sections are those?
Krauss: tlell there's two. Ryan is looking at Lhe siLe
railway tracks off of Audubon Road north of what's his
Rod Gram's property. The triangular piece kind of dourn
Erhartr okay. Is that b,eather station still active?
Krauss : Yes i t is . t^le met with them .
Erhart: That's next to that then?
south of the
name's property.
in the valley.
Kr auss :
wor ki ng
Erhart: Are both sites south of the railroad?
Krauss:
r,r i th the
r.rith thein there
roIIing.
No. The other one is the one north. l.le've advised them to go
site south first since that is somewhat cleaner. It's consistent
Comprehensive Plan and there's some ppssibility. Getting services
is a fairly complicaLed matter but ure want to get Lhe baII
The other one that they're doing'
contained within it. They are
on that site -
Erhart: Is that ser ious?
Planning
JuIy 17,
Commission Heet i ng
1991 - Page 17
Services?
The whole project, Is Lhis project serious?
Krauss:
Er hart :
Krauss: Oh they're quite serious, yeah. The other project. is in the
Timberwood area, You knou you armost don't want to kick this one so soonafter going through the whoLe thing but when the Comp plan uas adopted, weshowed the residential uses around Timberwood but you'11 recarl r told youthat the citv council, after a rot of discussion came off r,rith an alternate-scenario that could, or may be eonsidered in that area around Timberulood.
Emmings: You're talking about the
Krauss: Right.
Olsen: By the school -
Emmings: Yeah, the school site.
area between Timberwood and TH 5?
Krauss: ExactIy. And there were 8 conditions that uere set before thecitv would consider a non-residential use there. r don,t remember exactlywhat they lrere but one uras preservation of Lhe schoor site. Another liaspreservation of the creek corridors as recreational areas. Estabrishmentof buffer. BasicaLly brick or better with primarily office construction. Areallv class A type of project. Higher architecturar standards. HigherIandscaPing standards. The works. Ryan understands that and believJs thatthe site is a worthwhire one !o pursue. The premise thaL we'd be bringingthis back to vou with is that they meet those 8 cri.teria. Now that one isjust not as straight forward as the southern one for obvious reasons.
Erhart: Do you feel, you're thinking about thaL kind ofsouthern one as weII? Is it an office or industrial?
quality on the
OIsen: Industrial .
Krauss: The southern one, yeah. They,re looking for buildinss thatmore similar to what we have in the existing industrial park. Thatof.
are
kind
Erhart: Like our yucky building.
Krauss: That kind of a mix you know. rn fact they saw the higher qualitybuildings going up near Audubon. Then as you 90 back down in the valleyand you're near the railroad tracks, there it probably.is going to be thetip up panel type. Very small office component. And which we have a needfor. t^le have no space virtually for any of rhis anymore in this city.That's a real out of the way place. So I expect you').I be seeing someapplication for that within the next couple months. Ue're proceeding todeal with the school site. tje wanted to keep thaL alive and it was alwaysclear to us from the time that the Mayor and City Hanager and I and Tom
[^lor kman met urith them a year and a ha]f ago, that if we wanted a school tohappen there, it's something that the CiLy's going to have to work to makehappen. The fellow that we dealt with a! lhe School District has sincelefL and become the Superintendent for Shakopee I believe. Ue had a
Planning
JuIy 17,
Commission Heet i ng
1997 - Page 18
meeting with the Superintendent of the Chaska Schools 3-4 weeks ago. He
tells us that they're stiII very interested in the site. That they
sincerely believe, or he's speaking for himseLf you know. He sincerely
beLieves that they need Lo expand and that Chanhassen is the Place to do
it. L,e were working under the assumPtion that this would be a middle
schooL. It's a very touchy issue because of the old Cha nhassen/Chas ka
competitive espirit I guess but there's a possibility that it may be more
cost effective for them to convert lhe Chaska High School to a Hiddle
School and build a new high school here. He in no way committed to either
option. He has informed us that he is convening some sort of a building
and facilities committee to look at exPansions and to make these decisi.ons
and I believe I'm supposed to go over Lo the school Board at the end of
this month to give them an overview of the comPrehensive PLan and what we
see happening around there. so ule're trying to keeP the ball rolling wiLh
that. There's a very good potential that, again this is very Preliminary
but if we,re able to put LogeLher a package with Ryan on the area in front
of Timberwood, that it would be done with some sort of a redeveLoPment
disLrict. t^l e could then free up the money to be able to secure the land
for the school district. 5o these things are aII in the works and I can
keep you posted a! this point.
Emmings: 'Is there enough sPace there for a
space you need by a high school for sPorts
activities and also for lhis business Park?
high school and all of the oPen
and other e x tr acur r icu lar
Kr auss :
schoo I .
t^lell keep in mind we set aside a 4O acre chunk for the middle
Emmings: Alright and how much ]and is in that chunk north?
Krauss : t^le I I there 's L37
of which we assumed would
acres, about 40 acres, 40
industrial use ada jacent
divide that so at dispute
that goes.
acres that's been considered for sale. 40 acres
be school . Of the rest, of the remaining 1OO
or so is in an area that ule designated for
to the Mcclynn. There are two creek systems that
is that the middle 5O-5o acres. So u,e'll see how
shou Id
in
Emmings: ...ordinance is going to be on in August huh?
olsen: Yeah, we just sent out the letter with the ordinance and it
be in the second meeting in August. tJi]I be in the second meeLing
August .
OPEN DISCUSSION:CONFORHING USES.
Olsen: The non-conforming use, that one came about when there's been
requests for variances in Carver Beach where a house might already be 25
feeL from the front yard lot Iine but they urant to make an expansion. Like
in the back it still meets aL) the requirements but technically you'd have
to go through the variance procedure because it's a non-conforming
structure. So what this is meant to do is allow us to stilL Permit that
expansion so much as it's not exPanding the non-conformity. It's the house
is a permitted use but it iust doesn't meet the setback and the
non-conformity isn't increased. So it allows us to do that. The wav the
Pl.anningJuly 17,
Commission Meet i ng
1991 - Page 19
ordinance is stated right now, it's a litlle confusing, you can kind ofread it. It gets into use and then structure. It,s confusing so whaLwe're trying to do is make it clear that you can add an addition to your
home as long as the setback's not being.
Emmings: And then Roger, what Roger has written here is suppose to clearup that confusion?
0l sen: Ri9ht.
Emm i ngs: Okay .
Batz]i: I must be sicker than I thought. f understood it.
Emmings: tJeII, Roger's the guy who eventually has to enforce these things.If this makes him happy, I,m not going to complain.
olsen: rt was a request from us. The olher one really gets into a lotmore discussion.
Emmi ngs: t^,e I I let 's not go onto those . t^lhat do you r.,ant us? Is this anews i tem?
O]sen: Yeah. tje thought we'd throw iL on .
Emmings: Sounds Iike a good idea to me. Does anyone go! any comments onthat?
BatzIi: I don't like it.
Emmings: l,lhy?
Batzli: tJho's deciding whether it exaccerbates the non-conforming problemor nof ?
Olsen: tjelI if the problem's the setback and they,re not.
Batzli: But this will cover other instances. It's not Iimited to just
Lha!.
O]sen: No. It's lhe non-conformity so if it,s a duplex that is in asingle family district, they cannot, tre have another section. you can'tmake it into a six unit. tJhaLever that non-conformily is, you can'tincrease thaL.
Batz]i: Yeah. But there may be instances when you don't know uhethertechnically what the non-conformity may brorsen
Krauss: t^le have surveys submitted in support of the building permit.
[^le're able to tell from that.
Emmings: t"le l. 1 that's where it's going to come up is r.,hen people come in.
PIanni ng
JuIy t7,
Commission Meet i ng
l99l - Page ?O
Olsen: It's just we've had a couple of cases and I don't know. It's one ofthose, maybe it doesn't need to be fixed but it's the way the ordinance is
nouJ, we had to take people throqgh a variance procedure which ne're a]l
actually in favor of. tlhere they'd actually be improving the home in an
area that needs !o be improved.
Batzli: It's basically making them go through an expense that they
probably shouldn't have to go through. Going down to the county and
getting the names of aII the people and addresses.
olsen: Yeah, it's expensive so it gives us a little more flexibility.
Things really aren't going to be changing that we don't uant to be
cha ng i ng.
Olsen: The purpose of this is each summer we realize that the recreational
beachlots that have been grandfathered in are actually increasing their
use. They're expanding the docks. They've exPanding the number of boats
being moored and it's one of those how do we address that. It gets dourn to
proving Hhat was there versus uhat is there now. That's tough because
we've had three different surveys in the Pas! 10 years bJhere we can maybe,
the survey's urill show there's only 2 boats on that recreational beachlot
and maybe 2 of lhem were out on the lake ulhile we u,ere out there. It's
going to be hard for us to prove ulhat uras actually grandfathered in. So
one of our options was trying to do kind of like what we did with
contractor's yards with conditional use permits. Hake them all come in andget a permit to document what was there when the ordinance Has in effect.
For us all to come to an agreement that that was u,hat t,as grandfathered in
and tha!'s all that's there so we have a legal document from which to work
with. So if next year we found that Lhey were permitted to have 4 boats
and next year they have 6, He have something Ne can enforce. Right nowit's really not enforceable. TroIIs GIen is going lhrough a difficult
situation where actually the Homeowner's Association, the people within it
are suing each other over the use of Lheir beachlot.
Batzli: Is that the one where
lot? Or is that another one?
they couldn't get the two boats off the
Krauss: No, that's a different one.
Emmings: Okay. Anythins else?
Batzli: No. I'd rather talk about the trees than this stuff.
Emmings: The trees?
Batzl i : l..leI I her Ietter .
Emm.ings; No, no. That's not next.
Batzli: r know but I'm saying, I'd rather talk about that.
Emmings: You're going to have to wait.
NON-CONFORMING RECREATIONAL BEACHLOTS.
Planni ngJuly 17,
Commission Meet i ng
199r - Page 2L
Emmings: That's a different one. Trolls Glen is on the southern end ofLake l'linner^:ashta and it's a real nasty.
Olsen: And in that one we're being, the City's being pulled into tha!because iL is our ordinance to be enforced and the two people who arebringing the case against the others say.ing that they can only limit thenumber of boats out there. rs requiring the city to enforce the ordinanceso it might go to court. And again, we're jus! going to have a tough timeproving what was there and who has the right to what. So this is one waytha! r.re think we can get a hold on it. It doesn't solve the problem.
Emmings: I think this is redl important to do because I've been onHinnewashta for 7 vears and it's absolutely obvious to anybody that thebeachlots Lhat have docks and boats, there are many more. The docks getlonger and the boats are more and r think it's important as part of thispermitting structure too. Haybe Lo ge! a permit they have to tell us, weought to have a description of the boats and their license numbers and whothe owners are. The boats tha+- are out there at the ti-,e they apply forthe permit, I have no doubt in my mind Lhat there are boats in front ofsome of these beachlots for people who don,t five in the area. They [sl6ngto other people. r don't know if that matters or not. rt may matter to ussomet i me
Olsen: Or we could make it so that we do checks. lre can check theI icenses .
Emmings: rl wiII never happen. t^,e don't have the people to enforce that.
olsen: But if you have a homeowners association with 5o lots and they,reonlv allowed 4 boals, thev do a rotation system so Lhat might be kind of.
Krauss: tlell if we had annual renewal though like we have for the toirets.
Emmings: I think the thing is though, is just to cap their growth is themost important thing. I Lhink it's critical to do.
Batzli: rt's nice to do it this way because you're forcing them to bringin. You're 9oin9 to make them do the work.
Olsen: They misht come in saying that they had the right to 15 boats andwe know LhaL that's not so it's still going to be difficult to bring themdown to urhat actually did exist,
Emmings: Going back to the one that had the pontoon boat out in front ofit where there shouldn't be a boat. You're pursuing that separately. Thatwas removed as a condition by the City Council and you,re just soins tohave the City Attorney pursue that?
Krauss: t,le're still trying to do that in-hous.e. l.,hat u,e try to do andit's a procedure that uas developed primarily'in public Safety but b,e agr.eeteith. You try to do these thihgs diplomatically at first. I don'tbelieve, when you're talking abouL somebody,s boat, it's like talking abouttheir dog or their kids. They feer very possessive about it. r doubt thatit's going !o work but maybe we can work out something. Faiting that, u,e
Planning
July 17,
Commission Heet i ng
7997 - Page 22
have the ability to issue citations or ask the Ci.ty Attorney !o take ]ega]
action. [^le're hoping that this one's a little more clear cut than most of
these issues seem to be. Oftentimes when you look at the information as
I indicated to you earlier, you're just relunctant to put yourself in theposition of standing in front of a judge and saying.
Krauss: This one is one of lhe more blatant ones.
Emmings: Yeah. I thifik theie's a second boat out there at this time.
Kr auss: They acknowledged it.
Emmings: Oh they have?
olsen: Isn't it in fronl of the Lund's proPerty?
Krauss: L,Jhen we were out there this morning, yeah and it uas.
Emmings: You didn't look at my dock did you?
Krauss: No , there was another boat . . .
O]sen: So we're going to bring it back for a Pub].ic hearing and that
also include notifying alI the recreational beachlots. The legal and
non-conforming ones and it's really going to oPen up everything again
think it almost has to be done.
will
but I
Emminss: Oh yeah. I think it's imPortant to do'
Olsen: TroIIs GIen uill also, we had discussion last week with the
homeowners association and rather than the City pursuing our action against
them to bring them into conformance, they have agreed to make application
for a conditional use permit for a variance or even to request the
ordinance Lo be repealed. So no matter what it's coming back. The
recreational beachlot ordinance for it's annual visit, So hopefully b,e can
kind of get everything aII together and address everybody's issues. ShouId
be fun
Emmings: okay, Brian wants to talk about trees.
Batzli: I didn't know urhat Lhe Urban Tree l.'lanagement Program u,as. I
didn't know we had one. I didn't know ule Here working on it so I didn't
know r^re could compleLe it.
olsen: It's a piloL project with the DNR Forestry Department. tle don't
have anything yet. [^1e've got a preliminary, the aerial and we've got aplat showing the trees and so Ne are pursuing that so we can.
Batzli: Is this our tree overlay?
Olsen: Exac!ly.
Emmings: But this one, as I recalI was specifically granted urith no docks,
no boats.
Planning
July 17,
Batz I i ;
over Iay ,
Olsen: tlell there's none available right now so wethe DNR with some of their interns to work uith it.can probably get an intern but ule,re going to stillordinance part and have it in place and once we dopreserve , we'l I map it .
Commission Meet i ng
t997 - Page 23
I didn't know we had a name for it. If she had said treeI uouId have understood.
O]sen: Tree overlay? I urouldn't know what you were talking about.
Emmings: Tree i nventory .
olsen: But it's arso going to incrude the new ordinance. so it's stirl inthe r^ror ks .
Batzli: So have we hired a student worker?
might be ulorking with
Or else in the faII ue
move ahead uith thefind out what we want to
Batzl i : Ken Holman
O.Lsen: They're DNR .with the ordinance.
and Jonathan
They're in
SteigIer?
the St. PauI office and they work more
Batz]i: So there is nopet project for them?
current model ordinance? t^te're going Lo be like a
olsen: Exactly. And there's a couple of new ordinancesIot of recognition but our's will add to those. And alsobeen contacted by the Builder,s Association of Minnesotaget involved to make sure Lheir interests are met.
that are getting aue've already
and they hla nt to
Emmi ngs: L.lhat are their i nterests?
Olsen: I think that they just want to make sure bJe don,t make itprohibitive to build. I don't know exactly. [.le haven't sat down andtalked with them. They just want to come and I said that's fine.
Batzli: That sounds good.
Emmings: Ne've stalled as long as we can. l.le've been fooling around uphere. tihat can we do? t,lhen do you expect whoever's coming?
Rick Sathre: tJe were expected to show up at 9:OO.
Emmings; Okay, Iet's take a break until 9:OO and see who shows up.
Plannins
JuIy 77,
Commission l'4eeL i n9
7991 - Page 24
INFORMAL DISCUSSION:
LUNDGREN BROS .,/ORTENBLAD/ER5BO , PROPERTY ZONED RR , RURAL REJIDENTIAL AND
RSF. RESIOENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY LOCAT D EAST OF POI.'ERS BOULEVARD AND SOUTH
OF LAKE LUCY ROAD:
P RELIi'IINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 30 + ACRES TO CREATE 37 SINGLE FAMILYA
B
LOTS .
tIETLAND AL TFRAT T ON PERHIT T o AL TFR/FTI I CL ASS B T.IETLAN DS
PauI Krauss presented the staff. rePort on
Emmings: Does the appLicant h,ant to make
TeYry?
this item.
some kind of presentation?
Terry Forbord: My name is Terry Forbord b,ith Lundgren Bros-, 935 East
l,layzaLa BIvd. in uayzaLa, Hinnesota. With me this evening are a number of
people who wiLl heIP me hopefully answer some questions for you and for
anybody else who may be here to hear urhat tle have to say. Mr. Rick Sathre, -our consulting engineer, Hr. Frank Svoboda, tJildlife Biologist and Mr.
Roger carpenLer who's a Limnologist. They are with the firm Eraun
lnierlec. Paul pretty much has said a lot of the things that are reldvant
to this proposal so I won't get too much into those things beeause I uould
like lhe peopLe that are here with me this evening who are ver)z well
qualified to deal with Lhe specific issues, talk Lo vou a IiLtIe bit and
then hopefully you'Il have some questions or if there's any other
discussion ure can answer your questions. But I would Iike to iust touch
upon a couple things briefly. You may reca).I a number of months back I was
before you with a gentleman named Mr. John Shardlow. We talked a Iot about -PUD's because I know the City of Chanhassen was looking very strongly at
amending Lheir Code and their ordinances relative to PUD's. If you recall
in that cliscussion there was a lot of discussion over what is a PUD and
what is it for. Typically there's a misconcePtion of what i! is and what
it is used for. It doesn't necessarily always primarily have to do with
density or lot sizes or things like that. However, it mav and it doesn't
necessarily have anything to do t,ith trade-offs or anything else. However, -it may. t^lhen we first met Hith the staff many, many months ago, even
before we secured the development rights to this ProPerty. t^le've had
numerous discussions about this because we kneu it uas a very, very
sensitive area but that's why we had selected it. Lle've learned over 22
years that our customers like to Iive in areas tlhere there is wetlands and
there's witdlife and there's neat things to look at so we typically trv to
find Lhe most beautiful sites we can and then do the best we can with them. -
And so in working with staff it was very evident to all of us, staff and
ourselves and our consultants that this r^tas a classic Piece of ProPerLy to
be developed as a planned unit development. But because of the things the
city Nas going through in redeveloping Lheir ordinance and because of lhe
various timeframe that r.,e urere on and that timeframe has only to do with
the fact that the weather in Hinnesota gives you only about 6 monLhs of
buildable season. It Has mutually agreed upon, rel.unctantly by all of us
that maybe the best thing to do was to proceed under standard subdivision
regs which PauI has aLready described. That was a dismav to al] of us
because this is a classic piece of property for a Planned Unit DeveloPment. -
Because it has natural amenities that should be treated verv carefully.
PlanningJuly 77,
Commission Meeti ng
7997 - Page 25
But under standard subdivision regs you can't. It's Iiterally impossibleto do it. Unless you come in and ask for numerous variances which kind offlies in the face of what everybody's really trying to do. So after we
made an honest effort to make this work urith standard regs, it becameevident that ue should withdraw. tJe should reconsider and then come beforevou and recommend that this r.,ould be a planned Unit Development becausethat wilr allow us to burv things rike, it's not so much clustering as itis maybe varying a front yard setback. Varying a street width here and.there because it mav save a significanL tree or it may save from filrine au:etland which would be allowable under the DNR and the Army_ Corps.Hopefu]ly we can modify some of those things by varying some of the strictthings that are normally required under a standard subtivision regulations.so that's why we have pursued it. And I've attended enough meetings thatvou've had relevant to those discussions that it seems rjke this ii verymuch in the spirit of things rve been hearing from the planning comr_,.issionand the city council and staff for years here. And r must sa,.. because rknow staff is too modest to admit it, but r must say that they,ve beenvery, verv interested in this and helpful to us trying Lo solve probrems.They haven't in any way tried to impede us, They've said here,s someproblems, what can we do to fix it and they've been very helpful in that.Because it's such a sensitive site and because we,re not experts at thesemanv Lhings Iike r,retlands and wirdlife, we pursued to find the best peoplewe could in the region to help us and assist us. And so we have hired thepeople that are here tonight to do that. Through Lhe process ofresearching this site we found out some thi.ngs that kere somewhatsurprising to us. That the major wetland that is on Lhat site is, and lruse it in lay terms but it's very close to death because of very manythings which thev wirl address. so that kind of changed our course of whath,e were Lrying to do. ue realized not only Nere Ne going to be coming inhere and trving to creaLe a sensitive development. A nice place to IiJe.
[.,1e were going to have to do some fixing of what mar had a]ready damaged andman was the problem here. over the Iast 3o-so years. Uhat man has Jonehas been verv damaging to that site and we're going to try to fix that. Atthis ti.me I'd like to introduce Mr. Rick Sathre. He's the consultingengineer and planner on this proposed neighborhood community and he cangive you a Iittre background of Lhe proposal. And this is conceptuar only.This is no! with lhe items that paul has talked about. Reduced front yardsetbacks and the reduced street widths - Those things, those arerefinements that would be made in our submission of the planned unitDevelopment documents but it would rook very similar to r,rhat you're seeinghere.
Rick Sathre: Good evening. The red bLob on here is the site. This isLake Lucy Road along the northern edge of the site. This is County Road 17or Powers Blvd. to the east. Lake Lucy and Lake Ann. rt's about a 30 acresite. Just slightly over that. Looking a Iittle closer. Zooming in alittle closer to the site you see again the property's bounded by the red.The Ersbo parcer is at the northeast corner. That's on the Ersbo property,on the half section maps right now appears the first plat that the Cityapproved. subsequentry there was a second plat uriLh a different streetconfiguraLion approved. The ortenblat property, the soulhwesterly propertyof this Iand is still wit.houL any division. tte're combining the turo. you
can see to the uJest the larger rural. parcels and to the east and to thesouth and to the nor!h the urbanized subdivisions around the site. This
Planning
July 77,
Commission Heet i ng
799t - Page 26
isn't the world's best graphic but this is the City's aerial photo with
contours overlaid on it. The blue boundary is the approximaLe siLe
boundary. Here on top of a hiII is the Ersbo home and farther to the
southwesL is the ortenblaL home. Here's the Ortenblat driveway. Long,
long driveway coming back to this house. The Ersbo driveway doesn't shor,t
up nearly as urell but it fol.Iows this path. In the north central Portionof the site there's a ]arge open Nater wetLand area. That's the DNR
wetland that you see from Lake Lucy Road. tlay dourn in the south portion of
the property and slraddling the southerly boundary is another Class B
weLland in your ordinance that apPears on this site. There are several
others. Four other sma}I wetland bodies also. This is a coPy of the
boundary survey of the parcel and it shows' again the houses. The two
houses are in red on this drawing. The large green boundary here is that
northerly wetland and this one is a souLherly uretland. .There's also, the
real constraining thing about this ProPerty is that the wetlands are spread
out so much. If it was all. one big body, it'd be easier to work around.
But besides lhe tHo wetlands thaL have al.ways apPeared on your maps, there
are four oLher small ones. There's a finger of wetLand south and east of
the Ersbo home. Anolher one due east and then th,o smal} Iittle Pockets uP
at Lake Lucy Road which are separated from this main body by the driveuays
into the two homes.
Erhart: Rick, does the urater flou from one wetland to the other?
Rick Sathre: Yes- On the ground we've found a shallow
connecting this one to this one. The southerly wetland
uould guess it's 5 or 5 or 7 feet ' This one's louer.
ditch r ight
is lower by
her eI
Erhart: In a storm, urhere does the water 9o in that wetland?
Rick Sathre: Right now, before Lake Lucy Road or before there was a city
project to upgrade Lake Lucy Road we believe that the water drained to the
south out of this ditch. tlhen the Lake Lucy Road tlas uPgraded there ulas a
pipe F,ut under the street up here. catch basins in the street and a PiPe
underneath. Right nour water could go out to the north or to the south and
I thi nk it does.
Ei-hart: And you're proposing to raise the hrater ]evel of that Pond?
Rick Sathre: Yes.
Erhart: tlell obviously you're going to build up the south end. Am IgeLting ahead of you a little bit here?
Rick Sathre: tjell you're getting a Iittle ahead of me but we're talking
about taking the water out of this u,,etland to Lhe south but we're talking
about in effect damming the wetland up by filling this ditch or eliminating
the ditch and plugging the northerly outlet so rde can hold more uaLer in
there. Get more volume in the wetland. More water volume for several
r easo ns .
Emmings: okay, how will the Nater then go to the south?
PIanni ngJuly 77,
Commission Meet i ng
f997 - Page 27
Rick Sathre: It wouLd drain through a series of storm seb,,ers
The existing uretlands and ones that we're proposing to create
and wetl ands .or enhance.
Terry Forbord: There's
developed Lo accompl ishgreater deati I if you'd
quite an extensive comprehensive system that we'veaII those things and we can get into that inlike.
Rick Sathre: This just recaps basically what Ne're doing. t,hat b,e ulereproposing to do if it hadn't been recommended now that ere 90 back and lookat PUD. t^Je had been thinking that we would do an RSF subdivision withthese standard setbacks. 30 front, 30 rear and 10 side and the land ]endsitself raell to creating 37 single famiry lots on little over 30 acres ulithan average .Iot area of about 3o,ooo square feet or over 3o,ooo square feet.The density of that is about 1.25 units per acre. This is the concept planthat we're working on refining right now. If you,lI remember the Ersboplats that you've reviewed in the past in this corner had different streetconfigurations. The sig,nificantly different thing about what we're doingnow is ue're trying to get a street that aligns with Arlington Court Ibelieve i! is on the north side of Lake Lucy Road to come into lhis siteand go through the site past the Ersbo home to provide a Iarge loop throughboth properlies. The difficulty here, one of the things ue,re working onnow is trving to work on the curvature of this street and tightening up thealignment of the road. Maybe working on narrowing the road for a distanceto sneak through or sensitively pass between the steep hill and theuetland. That's one of the major things that He're Norking on right now.Trying to do that sensitively. Over here in this portion of the propertythere's some beautiful trees and here to we'd like to find a sensitive waythrough that tree sLand ulith the road so we,re working on, through the pUDprovisions we'd be working on some refinements to this plan to sensitivery9o through that area as r^lell. once you get back into the southerly portionof the property, we don't have steep slope constraints anymore. t^je don,thave tree constraints anymore but what we have down there is raetlands andlhey're constraining as welI. Here's a graphic that shows that subdivisionsuperimposed on the existing Iotting pattern in the area so you can get anidea, feel for how the streets line up wilh streets elsewhere and how theIots would back up toulards other parcels. I guess you,d have to study thatone for a while to see the real important features of it, This is agraphic that shows, the red boundaries on this plan are the wetlandboundaries. Braun fntertec, their technicians went into the field andphysically staked the boundaries of the six wetland areas- Our surveyorsat Sathre-Berquist b,ent out behind them and located the stakes and thenwe've drawn them on the plan. Drawn the lines. Connected the dots if youwill and so those red lines represent those boundaries of the r.retlands asthey exist. The blue areas are upland areas now which we would propose toturn into wetland. Some of these areas worlld be, this little blue area andthis one are brand new wetland areas that would be used for sedimentation.They'd be urater treatment basins. Trying to trap some of the nutrienLs andthe sediment thaL uas heading Loward the large wetland. He'd also be usingt,his area on the northwest corner for the same purpose. To trap as much as
we can of the bad things in the water before i't gets to the wetland. Thisbasin on the western boundary of the siLe and also this new blue area plusthis portion of the existing wetland, we're talking about, ure'reinvestigating the logistics of creating new wildlife ponds. Nehr wetlandsthat have a veyy diverse character. Have a varied edge to them and a nice
Planni ng
July 77,
Commission Meeti ns
7991 - Page 28
bottom topography so we encourage different plant growth. So three of the
wetlands Lhat we would be draining actively through wiLh storm sewer, we'd
have a Iittle different character. These would be very natural looking
wetlands we hope. Huch better than what the site has right now and the
sediment ponds would be more of a functional , a man made treatment system.
Erhart: Rick, can you throw Lhat back up again. It Iooks like there's a
high ground between your sediment Pond and the existing Class A or is it in
real i ty .
Rick Sathre: Here? or there?
Erhart: Both places. That's just shows where the edge is or is it
gradually. It's aII going to be one?
Rick Sathre: I guess lhe u,ay I see it, and I think t'le're still working on
how it should look but around the periphery of this DNR wetland there is a
fairly gradual slope. A lot of the sloPe it's verv gradual . So the way r
see it, that edge would continue uP and once you got beyond the wetland
boundary, then there'd be a rolled slope back down.
Erhart: So you see those being seParate from the existing wetland then?
Rick Sathre: t^lell we need to separaLe them Phvsicallv because of the
function that we're trying to Promote in these. t,e're actually trying to
use them Lo trap the sediment. So ue don't wanL to intermingle them.
Erharti How is that different from what we've done in the past?
Krauss: That's Lhe lhing. I think there's something that needs to be
Louched on here and possibly it's something that Frank Svoboda can touch
on. Functionally Lhere needs to be a separation for the flow between the
t!^ro areas for this thing to work, Visual]y we want this to t^ror k as a unit-
It's going to be so close and. . . indicated, there's some design b,here the
barrier is at the water level . t^,e can have wetland vegetation on the
property. There's not going to be a waII. So it would look like a...sort
of wetland with different areas when it's al] said and done - ft's not
going to be this standard, uniform, rectangular, excavated retention Pond
off in the corner someplace. It will ]ook from a distance or look from
being there as though you're talkins about a single wetland.
Erhart: okay. tJhy is this
whaL you just descr ibed?
going to work better to clean the water than
Terry Forbord: You're raising really good questions and part of Lhepresentation, it's a step by step process, as h,e walk through that you'Il
hear answers to that. JusL one more item to address that. The
conservation disErict, the conservation zone that PauI sPoke of that would
surround lhat wetland is going to be some$rhere. between 10 and 2O feet.
Right now what we're determining is urhat is Lhe oPtimum amounL. ThaL's
very hard to measure because that depends on the Plant tyPes and things
Iike that but because of that and emergent vegeLation that wiII occur in
the wetland area, you won'L even be able to see lhat. It wil.l look ]ike...
r^retIand.
Planning
July 17,
Commission MeeL i ng
7997 - Page 29
Rick Sathre: f suspect you'd see a change in plant Iife. You'd have adifferent plant species there than you would inside this area or just
i nsicle here a little biL. I guess as long as f'm on this, I didn't talkabout, a minuLe ago about r^rhere ure're intruding on the wetlands and Ishould do that. Starting up here, in order to 9e! a road into the site weneeded to impact unfortunatelv either this wetland or this iittle tiny one.[.le're making a conscious decision that if we had to choose that we shou]dbe impacting Lhis small little basin. Not this one. So we're showing afilling of about half of lhat little area which is a very small area. Atenth of an acre or ress than that. AIso up here in the northeast cornerthere's a small littte wetrand irea. r think Frank will talk about whythey'.re there. But anyuray r^re'r.e talking about eliminating that onealtogether. As we are proposing to eliminate this basin which is straighteast of the ortenblat home and we're also showing some encroachment intofingers of this soulherlv welland - An item of major interest and majoruork has been the effort to minimize or eliminaLe Lhe impact on the iarger.retland bv this road. As r said before, we're working to try to minimiieor lessen anvwav the impact on the upland grading here. There,s steepslopes and trees in the uprand. Trying to balance that out wilh someintrusion perhaps into the reed canary grass that surrounds the open waterwetland. tJe're working on the Logistics of that. r guess the graphic IIshare with. you right nou is Lhe topographic map. The significant treoareas on the site. North of the Ersbo home on this northerly facing slopethere are a great many dead elms unfortunately. There,s also'otherspecies. As vou get east of the Ersbo home and then down in +.he southerly,southeasLerly part of the site there's mature trees. t^le,d want to preserveas many of those as we can. East of the ortenblat driveway next !o thewetrand there are significant trees as urell as just north of the orLe:trla!home. But the absolutely best trees on the sile ar'e r.ray up here in thisnorthwest corner. Large oaks and other large trees. one of the things thePUD will let us do r hope is lessen the r"ight-of-tray width and even ltssenthe pavernent widLh perhaps for a ways Lo get through that area and minimizeour disrupti.on. Nith that I'd f .ike to turn it back to Terry.
Terry Forbord: Let me just touch upon a couple of things here before rintroduce lhe next individual . probabLy the easiest thing to do as far asthe deveropment of these two combined sites would be to cut alr Lhe treesdown and then grade the entire site flat and we wouldn't have to worryabout any of the things we're talking about here tonight. Obviously thatnray be the most efficient thins but it cerLainly doesn't fit the spirit ofwhat we're aIl trying to achieve - The other thing that we,re trying toachieve here that ue have consider obviously are the people who Live therealready and who's property it is. Mr. Ersbo, he's going to stay in hishome and he's 9oin9 to live here so obviouslv we have to be sensitive tohis wishes because he's going to be there. The same uith the orLenbrats soalL the physical constraints that exist on the site plus protecting theprivate property rights of the individuals so Lhey can enjoy their quietenjoyment of their property, made it a difficult site of where to put theroads and deal urith aII of these issues but r think as you can see by justthis exhibit right here, the different conslraints tJere enormous in triingto make lhis work. At this time I,d like Lo introduce Roger CarpenLer.He's a Limnologist and when we took Frank ouL as a consu.Itant to tell usabout these urellands and r,rhaL tre should and shouldn'L do, the first commenthe made r.ras, well I'1] tell you right nor.l this thing's real sick - 'He says
P I ann i ngJuly 77,
Commission Heet i n9
t991 - Page 30
there should be these types of vegetations around it. There should be
these types of vegetations in it. And that thing, for whatever reasons is
ciying or very close !o death. So h,e decided we'd better get somebody in
uho's an expert at understanding why lhat occurs and take some tests. Have
them analyzed by an independent laboratory so we're able to make some
recommendaLions and part of this development process wiII be abLe to
restore the vitality that that wetland probably at one time had. Roger.
Frank Svoboda: Thanks Roger. I guess I've been, Terry's been houses
almost as long as I've been in the business of doing wildlife management
and wetland studies. over Lhe course of that time what I've learned is
that wetlands are really a reflection of what goes on in the surrounding
landscape so Lha! the wetland is sort of a mirror or reflection of what
actually goes on in the upland that serves as a drainage area to feed that
uleLland and provide it with water. so the first thing that we alulavs do
when we come up with a situation like this, what may be some circumstances
that ule don't really undersland is that ule Lake a look at lhe Iand use
history of a particular parcel of land and what ue discovered in this case
uras Lhat by going through or going back and looking at the aerial Photos,the earliest one being !937, we discovered that from 1937 through
approximately sometime beLween 1937 and 1963 thi.s area, the large wetland,
!.Jetland +1 or the Dl,lR wetland had been cropped that enLire period of time
and that's consistent with this shallow hand dug ditch that connecLs this
Roger carpenter: I'd just like to exPlain basicallv t^,hat I did to trv to
take a look at the situalion as'it exists now and try to make some
conclusions. t^Je went out and ue took some r.rater samples and had them -
analyzed at a certified indeperident laboraLory for a number of different -parameters that t4e would normally look at in a r.later body. The main thing
that came back was that it was extremely high in nutrients. Mainly
phospherous and nitrogen are the two that we would be concerned with. The
phospherous is the most important because that's a controlling factor for
algae growLh in lakes. So afLer Laking a look at the results of the water
analyeis, er,rerything kind of fell into P]ace and it kind of exPlained what
we were seeing there which was basically as Terry mentioned, the absence of -any emergenL or submergent LyPe of PLants. The entire water surface is
covered with a mat of a very small plant called duck weed and that's again
characteristic of an over enriched Lype of environment that you would see
urhere one type of plant is able to dominant the situation to the exclusion
of other types of plants. The adverse effect of this is that Ne aren't
able to, or again the emqrgent types and submergent types of Plants like
cattails or bullrushes are noL able to gain a foothold. This mat of duck
weed that covers everything shades out the other types of Plants and it
also reduces, because of the shade reduces the oxygen so that different
types of animals are not abundant in the water. The advantages of having
these different types of emergent and submergent tyPes of plants is that
they are able to bind up this phospherous and nitrogen r,rithin Lhe plant
body. l,Jithin the roots and the part of Lhe Plants that are sticking out of -the Hater. It's able to reduce the nutrient loading that's in the water
and reduce the amount of nutrients that are able to leave the site also so
thaL a more desirable type situation would be to have these, a more diverse
type of situation with the different tyPes of Plants we're.talking abouL so -trith that I think I'lI introduce Frank Svoboda who wiII talk about some of
the different things that can be done to enhance this wetland area.
wetland basin with this basin. And again this is a fairly commonoccurrence in the urbanizing areas Hhere in the past farmers wanted to useperhaps this L,etland for hay or for pasture and what they would do is ]ookfor a nearby weLland thaL was louer in elevation and then they,d dig ashallow ditch connecting the two wetlands together. rn fact they may be insome instances we've seen just a series of Lhese shallow interconnectingditches, Typically you'll see these ditches are somewhere in theneighborhood of a couple of feet wide and 18 inches to 2 feet deep. one ofthe things r.re did that Ne ]ooked at for this particurar ditch, collected asediment core. A soil sample to see how much sediment had accumurated inthis ditch and what we discovered was there was about 5 inches of sedimentthat had accurnulaled over the years and as. a result it acted as a dam andgradually because the water couldn't drain in this direction, it graduarlyuater uJould sLart accumulating in the uletrand. Uhen we had Lhe meetinglast week, one of the individuals that attended that meeting i:-:..r:.ated Lhatas recently as L974 they actually had corn planted in this wetland and thatbefore thev could get in there to harvest that corn, this basin filled upwiLh urater because of heavy faII rains so they trere unable to harvest thatcorn crop is 1974. so in effect what might appear to be a netland that mayhave been around since the last glacier came through in fact has beenmodified in the past. Has been exposed to agricultural activities. Landuse acLivities that have changed it's character and in fact that activitytook place as recentlv as 1974. t,hat r would like to do now is to jusibriefry show vou some coror overheads and walk you through the uetrinds onsite. wetland #1 is the bis DNR wetland to the north. iake Lucy Roadextends right in front of these houses and at the north end of thisuetrand. tJetLand *1, and these classification systems, even though theylook Iike thev're incomprehensibre, they represent a hierachical codethat's developed bv the Fish and tJildrife service for their nationalwetland inventory. f uJon't go inLo all the particulars and details of Lhatclassification system other than it allows fairly detailed descrip!ions ofindividual uretland basins so that for example the oH, the p stands forpolestrian. That means it's a wetland. The oH stands for open r.rater. Gindicates that iL's generarrv flooded. The EH stands for emergent. Thatmeans it has emergent vegetation that actualry breaks above thi r::rface ofthe water. And this means that it's persistent. rt continues Lo stand. rLdoesn't faLl down. The F indicaLes that it's generally semi -per manent I yflooded represenLing this edge. And the.n the D indicates that it,s beenditched. Each of these classifications allow that sort of level ofdescriptive detail. tje're basically standing at the south end of thewetland ]ooking north. This fringe of vegetation around the edge isprimarily canary grass. One of the things that I look for to indicatewhether a wetland is healthv or not is the amount of vegetative diversitythat you observe. And I like to compare this to for example anagricurtural cornfield. Agricultural cornfield has onry one species on it.corn. And that's not very productive for wirdlife. one of the Lheories orI guess it's more than a theory. A proven fact is tha! the morevegetative diversity you have the more productive a particular community isand that also applies to Netlands so the greater diversity of vegetationyou have, the more aquatic species and terrestrial species that you can getutilizins that particular wetland. so this uras one of the factors thatindicated to me that lhere was someLhing not quite right here. The otherthing was that as r looked at that wetland, there should have been morewildlife species present and certainly there uere frogs present. He've
Planning Commission Meet i ngJuly 77, 7997 - Page 31
Planning
Ju)y 77,
Commission Meet i ng
7997 - Page 32
observed some individual mallards using that wetland. occasionally
muskrats have been observed ou! there buL again as one of the residents
indicated at the meeting ]ast week, an individual who has lived in this
area for ?6 yeays, he said over the last several years the Productivity of
lhis tretland has declined. And he said in fact several years ago it was
not aL aII uncornmon to see numerous broods of ducklings on Lhis wetland and
now we did not see a brood of ducklings or any broods. l.Jhat we did see
were some individual birds. So we've had some verification as to what mv
original hypothesis was and that Nas that there was something not quite
right r^rith this basin and that uas further confirmed when Roger u,enL ouL
and did lhe r,Jater chemistry analysis, tletland *2 is the olher Large basin
to the souLh and again suPPorting a monotybic stand of reed canary grass
and ]iterally no open uJater in this basin whatsoever so it has limiLed
value as far as wildlife is concerned and one of the things we would Iike
to do to this r.retland is create some open water adiacent to it to imProve
it's diversiLy. I think r^rhat I'll do quicklv just to get vou oriented to
where these different basins are as r.re're talking about them is to Put one
of the previous overheads uP so that you can get your orientation. Okay
t^Jetland #1, the DNR wetLand. The one with Lake Lucv Road in the
background. t^tetland *2 is the large ureLland to Lhe south. tleLlands s3 and
fl4 are wetlands that essentially formed as a consequence of these two
driveways that uere consLructed. This is not aL aIl an unusual occurrence
when you have road conslruction because either culverls start fj. lling in
with dirt and the drainage sLarts geLting altered or else maybe elevations
aren,t set righL to begin with or just as a result of the construction of
the ditch you start getting some minor accumulation of u,ater in these
roadside clitches. The reason that these are called weLlands however is
that they do satisfy the national criteria for delineating wetlands. That
is they have to have aquatic vegetation. They have to have hydric soils
and Lhey have to have hydrology. And certainly these tr^ro basins do meeL
those criteria but in terms of origin and function, they are really
marginal in Lerms of wetlands. Then the other tr^,o remaining wetlands ' Lhis
is a basin just to lhe east of the ortenblat residence. This one is
scmer,rhat, actually topographically it's quite a bit hisher than t,etland *2
and is connected by an overJ.and drainage swale where after the l^rater
reaches a certain elevation in this wetland it kind of spills over and
seeps overLand .into this basin so it's connected. This area that's shoun
here is just an overland spilluray. so keepins in mind then that tieLland *3
is east of the Ersbo driveway. That tJetland *4 is west of the ortenblat
driveuay. *5 is east of the Ortenblat residence and then *6 is connected
to Netland *2. As r mentioned Previously the ditch that was connecting
tletland s1 and $2, the hand dug ditch, the ditch itself does not show uP
here at all because it is so shallow but there is some trees on either side
of the ditch and in places there will be some canary grass and goldenrod
but basically it's very shallow. In fact on the one instance tlhen I
visii:ed Lhe site was after quite a heavy rainfall and in spiLe of the fact
that we had probably over an inch of rain or better, there was just some
seepage collected in the bottom of that ditch and t^tithin 2 days when I
returned to the site, the bottom of that ditch was entirely dry so that
ditch is just marginally functional . t,letland *3 is the one 'that Has east
of Lhe Ersbo driveway. Again mostly canaYy grass. Some box elders around
the edge. Just basically a fairly marginal wetland. *4 is Lhe t^retland to
the west of the ortenblat driveway. This wetland is a f et: feet higher Lhan
the main DNR welland and again Lhe canary grass surrounded bv some box
PlanningJuly 77,
Ccmmission Meet i ng!99! - Page 33
elders b,-rt basically just a relatively small, small basi.n. t^tetland #5 had
some r.rater standing in it. Had various wetland type shurbs. Some uretlandtrees and again the canary grass. FinalLy r.retland S5. BasicaIIy verysimirar to wetland *5. Some shurbs. t^letland type shurbs. Box elders andagain canary grass. so that's an introduction overview to the wetlands onsite and what we're proposing to do as a result of the development, u,hatthe developer's proposing is that there witl be more than just no net loss.In oLher words, there will be more than an acre per acre replacement ofwetlands impacled relalive to the wetlands replaced. So we,reaccomplishing a couple of things in this design. One is to deal uithimprovement of two of the wetrands to create more xildrife habitat on thesite and for three of the wetlands, as Rick indicated earlier, to use thoseuretlands as Hater quality enhancement pools and that would be the.wetland.Partially filIed wetland west of Ortenblat's driveway. The larger wetlandto the east of the DNR wetland and Nhat appeared as a sguare wetlandstraddling that drainage ditch betu,een s1 and *2. t^that's ilLustrated hereis lhe concept called the tJalker model and Dr, l.JaIker is a researcher whospecializes in urban storm water quality. Urban storm HaLer management andactual.Iy he did some of his developmental work in the City of VandaisHeights where this particular concept t^ras tesLed out and applied. Thispond calred the Nalker pond is actually, if you look at it from a plannedview, Iooks almosL Iike a triangle. The urater comes into this triangle atthe shallow end and Heaves at the wide end. Then it has a bench at i l,cshallcr.r end and then gradually gets deeper with tshe maximum depth beingsomewhere bet'een 4 to 10 feet. And there's some fairly a variety ofmathematical formulas that you go through to calculate how big this pondis. How deep it's supposed to be and what size it needs to be in order toperform Lhe water quarity function. r won't get into that because tha..,.:not mv area of expertise. There's other, Roger knows the details of thatbut basicallv what r do want to emphasize here is that a slug of waterremains in this pool and it remains in this pool for a certain minimumperiod of Lime. Long enough for the sediment particles to settle outbecause mosl of the nutrients come into a body of water, the phospherousparticularly comes into a wetland attached to particles of sedirnent.That's a primary means of transport. so if you can provide a means forLhose sedirnent particles Lo settre out. rf you can cause this water tc silhere and remain calm and allow those small particles to settle to thebottom, then the next time you get a major storm event and you get a neHsrug of water coming in, it pushes this cleansed h,ater out the ouLlet endand brings in a new, or the uater that's in here not"r is dirty so to speakand then again the process repeats itself. And depending upon the size ofLhe pond, treatment efficiency can vary from 4OZ Lo 602 and if you put twoof these in series, one ahead of the other, you can increase the trealmentefficiency by a little bit. tlhat ure,re proposins is to use these assingle cerled ponds to reduoe the nutrient loading before it gets into the
DNR r.,etland. Then Lhe other element of this plan, because ue recognizethat the DNR wetland has deteriorated in quality, we're proposing io raisethe water lever in that b,etland to increase the volume of water that's inthere. So by increasing Lhe volume of water, we can increase the dirutionfactor of Lhe nutrients. so besides pre-treating some of the water thatruns into the wetland, we'11 also be holding more r.,ater there so that thenutrienL load urill be diluted and the other part of that is if tre canreduce the nutrient load, increase the water leve] , bre're expecting thatue'II get a vegetation response in that basin that once ule change Lhe water
Planning
July 77,
Commission Meet i ng
1991 - Page 34
chemistry and the soil chemistry r.lhich are basically lhe main Parametersthat limit the kind of vegetation you have. If ure can alter that, then the
vegetat ion r.riIl respond because different birds, different animals wiII
brins the seed in so we're noL uorried too much about Lhe seed source.
t^Jhat we need to do is work with the chemistry of the basin. Change those
conditions so the seeds that do come in can then resPond. For examPle h,hat
happens r.rith the mat of duck weed tha! covers that basin, i! cuts out the
sunlighl from peneLrating down to the boLtom of the uretland so Lhese other
more desireable species can germinate and as a result of that, we end uP
r,rith t-his sterile pool and with monotypic fringe of canary grass. So we're
trying a number of things whlch have been studied from a_ scientific sense.
tle're applying those piincipies and exPecting a Positive' resPonse -
Emm i ngs: Have
restoration in
you
the
had any exper i ence
pa sL?
in attempting this tyPe of
Frank svoboda: r guess in terms, this is a fairly new apProach and the
reason I say it's new is because only recently has anyone recognized and it
was just mentioned quickly in Passing earlier. The idea of using wellands
to manage Storm water quantity has always taken precedence and the water
quality aspect has kind of taken a back seat. If you're following any of
Lhe literature, or I shouldn't say the literature but the news accounls
about different r.:riters or different PeoPIe that are interviewed talk about
the benefiLs of wetlands and quite often they'II say we need to preserve
wet)ands because we can use wetlands to enhance water quality. t^lell,
that,s only part of the story because if you're using a wetland to improve
urater quali!y in a lake, stream or river, obviouslv if the water quality
improves there, iL's going to have to deterioraLe someuhere else. so Lhe
idea of, weII the recognition that if you use a wetland for r.rater quality
treatment purposesr you are going to sacrifice other functions. ThaL is an
inevitable result. Peop]e aren't pointing that out. That's only coming
at,out just very recently. And so the reason this hasn't been done is
because people really haven,t recognized that this is a problem and so what
we're saying here is yes. In fac! this is a Problem. It's not all that
uncommon in urban areas and when you make a decision about using a wetland
for r,rater quality or r^rater quantity treatment, that decision has to be made
consciously on the basis of facts and information. 5o that if we choose to
use big reetland for uater quality Purposes, we're going to sacrifice
something in the way of t^ritdlife habitat. NoN when that decision is made
consciously, that's fine. So the resPonse is we're basically on the
cutting edge here because no one is thinking about wetlands in these terms
and so it really hasn't, Lhe question hasn't surfaced. Now in terms of a
more general sense, having done tretl.and mitigation in the Past, there's a
project that I worked on several years ago near Forest Lake where we took a
Type II sedge meadoru and converted that to a TyPe III wetland- I uould
guaranLee I could take anyone from, who didn't know tshe history of that
wetland lhat's a biologist for a public agency. I could take them to that
wetland and they would not know that that r.ras a modified weLland. I was
out there one spring. There were three sPecies. of frogs - A Great Blue
Heron. Several ducks on that wetland so there was iust a tremendous
respcnse in terms of wildlife diversity. The other thing that that proiect
did was nol only did it enhance, change the characLer of Lhat Type II
r^retland. ft also provided some surrounding upland habitat as well so we
actually designed a trildlife habiLaL area. And Lhat Project was extremely
PIanningJuly L7,
Commission Meet i n9
1991 - Page 35
Frank, what's Lhe average depth of that pond now? The Class A
successfu]. Successful to the point where both people from the DNR and the
Corps of Engineers point Lo that project as one of the classic examples of
Nhat can be done if the job is done correctly. As I said, someone could 9oouL there and they wou.Ld not knou, that that was a uretland that was created.There's no indication that it was ever engineered or anyLhing like that. Itjust Iooks very natural . So i.n one sense He're doing some pioneering workhere. In another sense, other aspects of this urork has been done before.
Emmings: Given the wetland, the big netland. The DNR, what ue're calling*1, the condition that it's in today. To geL it be uhat you describe to bea healthier wetland. One with more diverse vegetation and so forth, isthat .a difficult thing? Easy t.hin9? Is the transition from a poor wetlandto a good weLland going to take a year or 10 years or 20 years?
Frank svoboda: rn some respecls it's going to be r would say that urhatwe're doing here perhaps is somewhat, I wouldn,t say it,s entirelyexperimental but to some extent it,s a consequence of hor^r much damage Lhaturetland has sustained in the past because as r indicated previously, theIimiting parameters are u,aLer chemistry and soil. chemistry. so what we'retrying to do is improve the quality of the water that's entering LhaLwetland in two ways. Pre-treating the water and also increasing thevolume - Now ure've tarked Lo numerous experts at Lhe University and someother Limnologists and aII indications are that the approach that we,reproposing here is in line with the scientific knowledge as it'exists today -so on the basis of what the experts are te11in9 us, we think it's going towork but we're not going to know if it's going to work untir ne actuariy goou! and modify the, i,ncrease the water level and pre-treat some of thewater Lhat's going in there, But the best indications are so far thatwe're reasonably sure of success. But again, the wetland business, somepeople wiII say it's a science. certain aspects of it are scientific butmuch more of this craft so to speak is art rather than science. you applyprinciples and lhen you wait for nature to respond to the application oithose principres, so Lhere's a good deal of art involved in this as urell.Try and apply what you know in a creative way and predict a certain
r esponse .
Frank Svoboda: NeIl, from what we can terl and the reports we've gotten is2 years ago this basin uas completely dry. Although we didn't actually 90out into the center of it, our expectation is it's probab).y someuherebetween a foot to 2 feet deep. probably more in the neighborhood of a footto a foot and a half-
Erhart: Do cattails grour in areas that aren't permanently wet?
Erhartr
pond.
Frank Svoboda:grow in areasfeet deep.
CattaiIs, depending on the species of catlail, thev willanywhere from 6 inches of trater all the Hay up to Naler 3
Er hart: But ifthey're dead?
it gets dry they won't grou,? Every year it gets dry
Planning
July 77,
Commission Meeti ng
1997 - Page 36
Frank Svoboda: Right. Although -
Erhart: Yeah.
shore] i ne?
At the design level , urhat are the sloPes going to be at the
5to
slopes
Rick SaLhre: On the western edge next to the woodland, next to the
Ortenblat driveway I t^rould say the slopes are Probably between 3 and
I- Something like that. on the eastern side, the eastern shore the
are probably more Iike 10 to 1.
Erhart: So in any case, whereas
probably more like 20 to 30 to 1
Lhe sLopes noul of the shor'eline is
Rick Sathre: They're pretty flat.
Erhart: Pretty flat, yeah. So you'Il be able to
consistent shoreline assuming you don't have any
Ieve I .
maintain a
leakage at Pr ettsyyour hi gher
R-ick Sathre: That's a concern too. The soil is pourous enough in some
places uhere ure probably wiII get some seepage.
Erhart: If you can do that, that will help you a lot in maintaining the
cattails and more lraditional shoreline iust by having a consistent -
Haintain a consistent water leve] . one that doesn't move around on you.
Terry Forbord: The interesting Part of this is because Chanhassen is
probably the, of aII the municipalities in the metropolitan area,
Erhart: I guess what I'm saying is, what makes you think that the reason
that you only get canary grass is Lhis is a non-permanent water area. If
you take a field, a filled field like this and dry it out every 3 years or
4 years, you're not going to have cattails.
Frank Svoboda: Actually there were cattails in there because when Roger
uas out on the site he did find lhe residual remains of cattails along lhe
fringe and what happened uras when the Pond dried up a couple of years ago,
then the cattails died back and it was rePlaced by canary grass, Eventually
that cycle will rePeat itself but the other Part of the equation is
hydrology. Clearly if you have a drainage area that's small relative to
the wetland, then you,re going to get these fairly severe fluctuations in
water. Now by redirecting some of the runoff on the site and aLtemPLing to
capture more water, what we'11 try to do is kind of reduce the exLent of
those fluctuations. So where it might dry out now during certain Periods
of time, we might have 6 inches of water in it where in the Past it was
complete dry. so we're also doing some work with the hydrological part of
the equation and trying to bring more b,ater in there.
Erhart: what,s 9oin9 Lo be the final depLh? tlhat's the control structure
you're going to use there?
Rick Sathre: Ne're talking about a pipe outlel that wouLd be uP probably
abouL 2 feet higher than the diLch outlet noH. I would exPect vou'd get
the very center there could be water apProaching 4 feet I would think'
PlanningJuly 77,
Commission Meet i ng
1997 - Pase 37
Chanhassen probably is more interested in this type of thing than anyone Ican Lhink of. PIymouLh is also somewhat interested but Chanhassen appearsto be more on the cutting edge of understandi n9, or attempting tounderstand it,. And urhen for us, when we realized Lhe problems here andrealized that the do nothing approach - If we don't do anything, what I'vebeen told by Frank and Roger is that that existing wetland, and even theother smaller ones, will continue to decline in quality just because ofwhat man has already done. Because righL now it,s in an uncontrolledenvironment for it. rf you start controlling the environment, controllingthe amount and the flow and the types of runoff that goes into themcleansing the runoff that goes into them, that you can attempt to bringthem back. So Lhat's. become an interesting part of our proposal.
Rick Sathre: Did you want to talk about that...
Frank svoboda: t^lhat we would rike to do with the turo ponds that we talkedabout for wildlife habitat. Typically the ideal !.rildlife pond has a ratioof emergent vegetation. vegetation that grows above the water. The urater,it's a ratio of about 2:1. That is roughly 332 open water and about 67?.vegetation. The other thing that you try and accomplish is not to have aIIthe open water in one spot, ALl the vegetation in another spot. rs to tryand create some variation in the location of that mix of vegetation andwater. so Hhat we're proposing for Lhose two ponds is to create a uretlandthat has an irregurar meandered edge Lo approximate a natural condition andthen from the upLand here and the first several feet of the wetland,designing the bottom at a ratio of roughly 1o:1 to 20:1 so it's faiilysteep here. Then as you get into the deeper u,ater, this edge being o to 18inches deep - Getting into the deeper water, 1g Lo 36 inches deep indmaking the bottom flater. Something like 2O:1 to SO:1 here and then in themiddre having pockets of open urater that urould stay open Hater permanently.so here vou'd have water preferably 3 feeL and deeper. rn cross section itlooks Like this. trhere vou have the deep pocket here. Then this kind ofhump which would be the 18 to 36 inch so you get some vegetation maybestaying below the surface or breaking through the surface. so you have abottonr that's irregular and you have an edge thaL's irregular. That istypicarly when you see a naturar uetland thaL was formed by glaciation,that is the kind of patlern it has. so Lhat's what we're proposing to doin these two wildl.ife wetlands at the south end of the site. The one whichwould be excavated from upland and the second one which would be acombination of uprand excavation and some modification of the existingcanary grass r.letland. So this is our concept here and this is, as Imentioned to vou, the wetland at pioneer point in Forest Lake. This is thetype of approach that we used there and it works very well.
Terry Forbord: Frank, what types of vegetation wirl be introduced in thistype of uet I and?
Frank svoboda: NelL preferably wha! we Iike to see in addition Lo thecattail are things rike pickerel weed and burlrush. Depending. on the watercuality, we would like to get some buLrrush established. some of the otherwetland grasses besides canary grass. t^letland herbs Iike swamp milkweed.There's riterallv hundreds of wetland species and a good healthy wetland,the healLhier the wetland the more variaLion you have in the vegetation-GeneralIy a good indication of a wetland that's suffering from something,
PlanningJuly 17,
Commission MeeL i ng
7997 - Page 38
be it poor water quality or some sort of problem regarding soil chemistry,
you tend to end up with a u,etland that's fairly monotypic, Either canarv
grass, continuous stand of canary grass or continuous stand of cattails and
little else. t^Jhat ure like to do is try and vary that diversitv and again
the two things that we have to work with are the soil chemistry and the
water chemisLry because my feeling is if you get those things in balance,
if you get those things corrected, then these other P]ants will start
showi ng up .
Erhart: hlhere are you going to do that? Is
the other ones? Is that the one on the west
Frank Svoboda: Okay, it would be these twb. It would be
this part of lhe wetland which is excavaLed out of uPland
would exlend to this part of the existing s2 wetland '
that the class A u,etland or
bou ndar y ?
this basin plus
and then which
Erhart: okay. To get bullrush and swamp milkweed and all that, do you
have to plant those or will they show uP naturallv?
Frank Svoboda: There are tuo schools of thought - In fact there's been
establ ished nursery business in wetland plants- There's a couple of
nurseries in t^lisconsin and there's several nurseries on the east coast. l'ty
feeling is if you bring the soiL chemlstry and the water chemistry into
proper balance, the other species will come in. In many instances there is
a seed bank wilhin Lhe r,:etland that is lving dormant and it just takes the
proper conditions in order to invigorate that. In other cases or in
addition Lo that, ducks travel numerous Netlands and seeds will stick to
their feathers. Stick to their feet. They'II consume seeds of other
plants and those r^rill be passed in the excrement and the seeds get
introduced into the wetlands. Plus some of the seeds are wind born so
there are numerous mechanisms for Producing a seed bank. One of the things
that led me to this conclusion was that reading through the historical
records when the land was first settled, we had numerous wetlands around
here thaL had wild rice present yet r.re no Ionger see any wild rice here. I
bel iei,e if we look at the type of urater chemistry that wild rice requires
in Lhe wild rice beds farther north where Lhe water quality is much beLter 'if u:e ]ooked at the Nater quality there and compared it to the water
chemistry we have here, ue'd undersLand why t'le don't have wild rice any
Ionger is because of the effect of agriiulture and various Land use
practices that changed the water chemistry. So that's why I'm such a
strong believer in getting those two elements back into ProPer balance
because then Lhe rest of the communiLy, the ecosystem is going to resPond.
And certainly I'm not going to LeII you that 5 years from now this is going
to look the uay it uras in 1750 because I don't think that's possible.
That's like saying that you could go out and recreate a native Prairie in
an agriculLural field by seeding Big BIue Stem and Indian Grass and a fete
other things. certainly you've re-established the native PIant sPecies but
it sti]I isn't the ProPer mix of aII the elements of t^rhaL the native
prairie once was. so I'm not going to stand here and teII you. that this is
going to look like it did in 17oo but what tre're trving to do is make it
better than it is today.
Emmings: tlhen you're creaLing these wetlands, I read about how when
loosestrife is introduced to these areas it takes over. Hot] do we knoul
Planning
July 17,
Commission Meet i ng
799! - Page 39
we're not just really just creating a happy home for some Loosestrife?
Frank Svoboda: There is an element of risk with thaL, particularly sinceloosestrife is established immediately across Lake Lucy Road. Uhat happensis when you disturb an area, creaLe an open soil condition, then that,s areal optinral situation for purple roosestrife to get established. And soLhere's going to have to be some diligence, some care taken initially toprevent that from being established there during those first couple ofyears when tha! soil is raw and exposed.
Emmings: UiIl it become any less a problem thereafter?
Frank svoboda: once you get a good tight vegetative cover established,it's ]ess apt to invade. The most vulnerable time is when it,s firstdisturbed but certainly there's numerous cattail r^retrands around themetropolitan area that had no disturbance and they're fulr of purpleIoosestrife. So that's certainly a factor that has to be recognized. rbelieve that there may be a few scattered individual plants thit came inthe south side of Lake Lucy Road probably as a consequence of thereconstruction of that road and the exposed soil that was there at thetime.
on
Terry Forbord: Are there any other questions we can answer forrelative to the aspects of the pUD proposal other than wetlandshave more wetland questions, that's fine but maybe lhere's somethings that you.
you
or if you
ot her
Emmings: tle).I yeah, we,ve spent aguess everybody's pretty i nterested
have questions or comments about, fIike to ask your questions or maketo do that.
of time on this single aspect. fit. Are there other people here ulhoother people have come. If you,d
comments, this misht be a good time
Iot
in
your
Joe Morin: Yy
developmenL.
name is Joe Morin and I live directly to the west of this
Emmings: The property neighboring it to the Nest? Right next to i.t?
Joe Morin: The next door neighbor is Ted coey. He has a 20 acre parceland I'm next door to Ted. I have a 5 acre parcel . Basically f have a fewcomments to make about the work that the staff did. This is a difficurtsite and they're !o be commended for the work that they've done up untilnow. I think their report is well done and it's sensitive to theenvironment in the area but r do have six concerns that rd rike to outrinebriefly in the interest of saving some time. rt's getting rate and twoproposa).s that rd like sLaff to rook at. Mv first concern is basicallywith the transition of this type of development into the surroundingdevelopments. rf you look to the south in the Greenwood Shores area youcan see that the lot sizes are much larger. And if you look to the west ofthis development, the existing homes in that area are higher valued byconsiderable amount than are the value of the homes proposed for thisdevel.opment. It's my understanding that part of what you're doing isstruggling with deveroping a pUD ordinance at the same time ure're trying tounderstand this particular development so the comments thaL r make are
Planning
July 77,
Commission Heet i ng
799t ' Page 40
relative to both. t"Jhat I would like Lo see is a fuLure kind of ordinance
and also the problems that I see in this ProPosal . The second concern that
I har.,e is the exiting of this road. There's two major Problems with that.
The first of course is the impact of thaL road on the residents across the
street. ft comes out right abouL at their front door. And the second and
very serious concern I have is that it goes right across the top of that
knoll xrhere a]l those beautifut oak Lrees are. There's a huge beautiful
mature oak tree and arso birch and asPen and it's just a gorg'eous area' r
think that there are some things that can be done to bring that out at a
different location- The third concern that I have is the view from Lake
Lucy Road ]ooking into that high density development. tJhat you're looking
at is the back yards of a urhole lot of houses. That's not a real , I don't
lhat's I think something can be done to mitigate that as well' I
understand there was a Problem with that on Lake Riley Hills develoPment
and some work was done to mitigate that concern- I'm not fu]ly
understanding what they're saying about this holding pond ' To me iL
appears that aII of the surrounding homes are draining into that cLass A
wetland and aII that fertilizer and stuff going in there is going to make
that a lot worse. There,s this tiny ]ittle holding Pond at the exit of
that class A wet.Land that's supposed to Protect Lake Lucy and I'm not. real
confident that this experimentaL proiect is rea]Iy going to do that. so
I really feel that t^rith 37 homes on a site that small with that much
wetland and with Lake Lucy, Lhe headwaters of the chain of ]akes downstream
that we need to take a stronger look at that. That tlalker pond concePt
sounds interesting but it's certainly not doing anything to Protect that
class A wetland. I just Hant to rnake sure that's understood. AIso the
developer,
Emmings: L,hat do you mean it's not doing anything? I understood them to
say iL was going to do something. I wonder what you mean-
I'm trying to say. You have aI] Lhese homes here
Iatrns draining directly inLo this Class A t'leLland.
that except hopefully there will be some buffering
Joe Mor in: Here's wha!
r.r i th fertilizer on their
There's nolhing stoPPi ng
in there.
Er hart:
pond.
Joe Horin: Right- That's what forms the class A wetland. The reason it's
dead now and has a lol of duck uleed in it is because of aII the fertilizer
that the farmers put on the cornfield- AII that stuff was alreadv there.
AII that phospherous was in there and uhat this does is it simply adds more
nutrient loading into that area. Noh, as I understand it, maybe I have i!
wrong but there's a little pond here where this thing is fLotring out.
Thal's the tJalker pond proPosal.
Emmings: okay, what I understood is Lhat the water that Lhey collect from
other parts of the site, storm water and so forth will be going throush the
pond that's going to be built to the east of t'he wetland.
Joe Mor i n: This one uP
That 's
her e?
Joe, if you don't have it draining in there you won't have the
Emmi ngs: Risht .what I thought they were talking abouL.
Planning
JuIy 17,
Commission Meet i ng
7997 - Page 41
Joe Morin: ...buL none of
being buffered at all.this oLher sLuff Lhat's flowing in there is
Emmi ngs: I understand.
Joe Hori.n: And perhaps the storm seh,erthat a t^lal ker pond down here?
coming doun here, I don't know is
Rick Sathre: Let me address this. This one?is a tJal ker pond . That's a t^lalker pond. AIIdirected through one of those three before itqlet I and
Joe Horin: But you have
Rick gathre: The Nater,s
Emmings: No . It's going
aII of this going
the other way .
going in through
the. proposal isis this way.
won't go through
This is a l.lal ker pond, thisof the street runoff would begoes into the Class A
through that and then going in.
this into there -
to block the exit to the north so
this little basin. . .a separaLe
Joe
the
Mor i n: tlel I yeah butonly way to come out
Sathre: tlel I but itthat takes it ou!.
Rickpipe
Joe Morin: t^Jhat does it drain into?
Rick Sathre: It wiII come down to this wildlifethere and then it wiII discharge into this area.
pond after it's stored in
Joe Morin: These hold the storm sewer runoffs but tF,r.. don't hold runoffsfrom alI of Lhe surrounding properties and they don't dc anything toprotect Lake Lucv from alr the runoff... And even if they did, iooking atthe si.ze of the relative size of Lhat area and in effect that this is inexperimenlar project, r don't have a rot of confidence in the fact thatthat's going to be protected. That's my concern. The other thought I hadis I know that this is welL r.rithin the guidelines proposed ,in theComprehensive PIan in terms of density but that isn.t realIy a zoningrequirement in that we still need to rook at those as guidelines. nieas inthe hish lerrain area surrounding the north side of Lake Lucy, the areasthat primarilv drain into the Lake r believe shourd be looked at as largerlot kinds of homes than what is being proposed here. AIso for all theother properties to the west that haven't been developed yet, including myown. And I guess my finaL concern is what a horrible precedent we'resetting here. There's 11 variances that are proposed on these lots.That's something that reaLry troubres me a lot. That's my final concern.My th,o recommendations that I think could be studied. I'm not a civilengineer or anvthing but it looks to me like the impact on this knoll couldbe mitigated bv coming out through the area where the existing driveurayexits rather than coming across this knoll and certainly that uould have animpact on this wetland somewhat. But in terms of the overall environmentthat this knoll and the trees surrounding it and this area are far morevaluable than is a tiny section of Lhis wetl.and area. So one of thethoughts might be to redirect this road to forlow closer to Lhe wetrand
Planning
July 77,
Commission HeeLi n9
i99f - Page 42
area and then move the homesites to the other side. That would Put Lhe
front yards visible from Lake Lucy Road rather than the back yards and it
trould conform to the terrain of the properties I think a lot better. The
other thought I had was in looking at this area here, in order to reduce
the total number of variances required, 11 here, PerhaPs by. combining some
of these Iots. Instead of having Lwo small lots, make them one Iarger lot
and instead of having a road in here, you could service four of these with
a private driveway which would bring the homes further from the wetland
area and I think would make a more suitable deve.IoPment for this
environment with aIl it's ameniLies, I think maybe it's not economically
feasible to put !6300,oOO.OO homes in Lhere todav but it was 5 vears ago. It
may be again 5 years from now so I'd hate to have the economic conditi<jns
at this moment in time ruin what could be potentially a verY beautiful
area. For alI of Chanhassen.
o kay
JoeEmmings: Thanks. Is there anybody else who has comments
Eric. You're a notori.ously long speaker. Have you got a
where you can just hit us bing, bing, bing?
on this?
list like
Eric Rivkin: I'm also historically imProving my, cut down on my. I just
wan! to say I have some concerns. I'm not going to rePeat what Joe has
said. r do agree in spirit to what Joe has said although the solutions may
not always be there. I am concerned about the trees on the ngrthwesL
corner of the lot being destroyed- There is a very high knoli there and it
would really tear into that I think in a wrong way. To add a benefi! to
Joe's proposal of movi.ng the street around Lo where the exisLing driveway
is, I think the benefit urould be to take the runoff, nutrient rich runoff
fronr the backyards of those Lhings and then it wiII. be inLercePted by a
street. Then that would also guarantee that a true nature buffer area
betueen the road and the pond existed rather than have an artificial one
only 10 or 20 feet wide created by a back yard conservation easemenL- I am
concerned that not all runoff i.s redirected to be so called cleansed. I
think that should be mitigated j.n some wav so thaL the spirit of this, so
that this experiment could work. Given a chance Lo uork. I think that
developnrenLs ]ike this have to move in this direction where uater quality
is put a front seaL to tJater quantity and so I think it should be mitigated
in some way Lo guarantee that aII the runoff is redirected to be cleansed.
And if thaL means Laying it out again, so be it. I'm also as Co-chair of
the Lake Lucy Homeowners Association I'm concerned about any water that
enters Lake Lucy uatershed. I understand from talking to Terry yesterday
that, am I still correct in assuming that this, all the water is now going
to be running into Lake Lucy uratershed and not into Christmas Lake
watershed?
Terry Forbord: That'.s correct. A very smal.I amount of it' if any' runs
north aL Lhis present time. The waLershed district boundarv is on lhe
center line of Lake Lucy Road so everything north of Lake Lucy Road is
supposed to go north, Everything south is suPPosed to go south- It's the
conc.l.usion that it would best be served to run it south.
Eric Rivkin: $y deepening the u,aler, increasing the water holdins caPaciLv
of this whole site, and when you have big storms, you're going to have
flushing of nutrient rich urater going into Lake Lucy, I'm concerned about
that. t^,hat guarantees do we have that the water quality is going to be
Planning
July !7,
Commission Heeti ng
7997 - Pase 43
improved over what it is nour at least and are there any water qualityguidelines that could be proposed to say okay, we are going after this muchlevele of phos.pherous or whatever and try to set some clear cut goals andsome r^rays of meeting them and guaranteeing that they be put in placethrough condjtions on the plat. Another condition that I saw f:j nd ofIooming on the horizon here was what is soing to fund the nutrientharvesting in those catch basins? rn order to prevent phospherous frommoving dourn the watershed and ruining wetlands downstream as ourLimnologist said here, the phospherous has to be removed every so often. Hesaid, did he Paul said that the city is responsibre for harvesting those?Cleaning those basins out every once i.n a while
Krauss: l.le I I yeah. t^le have a number of sedimentation basins existingaround lhe communitv. They have a service Iife that varies depending onhou: much erosion is getting into it and what not. Ue haVe an obligaiion tomaintain those things and they,re in every subdivision and that's primarilythe reason why we've steered plans Lo having essentially focused colrectionpoints. You know instead of having 8 or 9 small ones around, have 2 or 3that we can manage. rhe fact of the matter is though is most of thesethings are still relatively new given the timeframe of development ofchanhassen. To the best of our knowledge they haven't failed yei, at leastfrom the sedimentation basins. [^1e need to start structuring, and charleswould be able to take this one, but we need to start structuring amai ntenance program for our sedimentalion basins. Nor.r L,e are starting touse these basins in an expanded mode to also improve water quality. r^r.will need to maintain them probabry more frequently than hal been the casewhen it was just for uater vo.l.ume for the water quality aspect. In somecases it's weed harvesting. In some cases it,s sediment removal that willhave to be done. certainlv going to be coming in and taking out the finesthat have setlled out, Otherwise it Non't function. Up to this point wehaven't had an active effort to do this because (a) it hasn,t beennecessary and (b) ure haven't been able to afford it, That's one of theprimary reasons we got into the surface water utility. [,le nou, have asource of revenue that in part is 9oin9 to be used for the planning effortto get- our water quality program or our storm urater management and weLlandseffort on track but that's onrv about a fifth of the funds that we,II begenerating over the next 5 years. The rest of it is for land acquisitions -It's for maintenance programs, It's for. street sweeping. It's for goin9in and dredging these things out on a more periodic basis so it issomething that we're responsible for. rt is somelhing that h,e,re gettingup and runnir,g now so we'lI be ready to do that yes.
Eric Rivkin: Okay. t^tel] my concern is that the guarantees will be inplace forever basically because that's what you,re creating here. AIsowith the people that are living there got these basins in their back yards.
Does that mean a truck from the city is going Lo be driving through theirLots Lo clean these basins out at a Lime when wildlife is irying ioestablish itself? I mean the timing is important in this. Haybe thebasins ought to be moved closer to the road so people don,t fee] , and thewildlife aren't going to be encroached on at the same Lime. It,s athought. It's an environmental issue and it,s also I'm sure the peoplethat are going to be Living there, it,s going to be an issue _
Planning
JuIy 77,
Commission Meeti ng
!99! - Page 44
Charles Folch: Yeah, typically when we review a development proposal we
take a look at how ule are going to access these ponds. t^le normally require -an access easement !o get to thg pond. t^re try to contro.L the steepness of
the grades to get down there. Certainly there is going to be some
disturbance when we have a heavy piece of equipment going in there and
doing the dredging work and cleaning it out but hopefully with the methods
that we're learning here as far as our revegetating of these wetlands, we
can implement those same procedures Lo heIP restore any disturbance that
occurs when we do go in and do maintenance
Emmings: I think Lonight and given that it's almost 11:Oo, trhat we're
going to do here is I'd Iike to get the cohcerns folks have out on the
table and not to respond to them so everybodv gets a chance to sav their
peace and get everything out on Lhe table. Because they-'re going to be
going back to work on it and there urill be another public hearing where we
can maybe budgel more time for !his. So 90 ahead Eric'
Eric Rivkin: I didn't expect any answers nobr. I guess also, is the 20
foot urild easement around the backs of these lots, is that consistent with
the diversity of vegetation concePt or re-establishing tlildlife? I don't
need an answer but I don't know what the ideal conservation easement is
going to be here.
Krauss: Keep in mind the welland body itself is going to be Protected -
mean there's no question of thaL and we're talkins about it as an upland
area beyond the wetland. In the Past when we've had a setback, we've had
75 foot setback requirement but you could sod basically up to the uretland
and we've become convinced that whether it's 75 feet, 35 feet or whatever
it is, unless we have a fringe of natural- growLh, we've got a significant
problern because anything that's Put on the lawn, any grass that's cut on
the lawn just fLushes right into iL and the idea is to keep it uP Lhere.
I
Eric Rivkin: Right. That's alI I have. Thank you very much.
Mark Sanda: Hi. My name is Mark Sanda and I live just to the west of Joe
Morin about a quarter mile or so. I iust wanted to state that I agree with
Joe's points and I feel they're very imPortant. The slide to me that is
the most telling one is the plat maP that shows lhis new development in
relationship to the plat maps of the other develoPments and iL iust is
taking a little bit away from the area. tle're trying to shoehorn a few too
many homes into a limited space. A very valuable space and we can't lose
sight of the bigger picture of how close this developmenL is to the shores
of Lake Lucy. l'lany of you have sat here for many hours as r^re've debated
our problems wilh Lake Lucy and the declining water quality there and we
really have to be mindful of how this development, even though Lake Lucy is
shoun as little tiny corner on these maps, is very, very close. It's iusta few hundred yards auray. Ihat's basically all I u,anted to say.
Emmings: Thank you. Is there anybody else that wants to Put anything on
the record here tonight? I think maybe we oughL Lo, I don't know if
anybody else has comments they urant to make at this stage of things. I
think ure ought to give some direction in Lerms of whether or not we think
this ought to be done as a PUD as opposed to a straight subdivision,
especially in light of the fact that ure don't have an ordinance to guide us
Planning
July 77,
Commission Mee.ting
f991 - Pase 45
Forbord: I have a couple answers for that but ifaddress them later. If you,d Iike me to address
in this. That doesn't seem to bother Paul , which I guess, I don't know.
Does anybody have any commenLs they want to make?
Erhart: I think you're doing the right thing by raising the uJater level ofthat pond. I suess I tend to believe that will do more for wildlife thanany single thing. f mean ducks just don't breathe in 6 inches of *ater.They'II rest there and move on so I think increasing the water level therewill have a dramatic effect on the varue of that wetland so r think r.re'redoins aIl the right things there. t,te're mitigating, ue,re moving thingsaround because you have to on roads- And the fact is that ue,re replacingwitir more and trying to allow people some live there I think is good. ILhink sometimes tue tend to think that when we do subdivisions that somehowaliens are moving in from Hars to live as neighbors but you know these arepeople that are going to live here. rt's a grouring population and we'vegot to make room for them in a manner that,s consistent. The oLher peopleare already there but we try to make, Ne Lry to accommodate lhem the bestway we can and r think for that reason t^re have to, as much as r don,t liketo move wetlands, sometimes you have to do that to make it sense for peopleto have homes and enjoy the uretrands like so many of us do nobr so. r thinkit appears as though h,e're on the right track.here. rnterested in r thinkit was Joe's comment. The idea of putting the road next to the pond liiethey used to do in the o]d days. you know they put the road next Lo theIake and have the houses face the pond. rt just sort of hiL my curiousitythere- r don't think anvbody's used that approacli for years but r justwonder whal the impact of Lot prices would be if you were to do that.
Terry Forbord: ttould you like me to respond?
Erhart: f don't know. Do you hhve a quick answer?
Terry
WC CAN
you would
them now,
Iike nre,rd behappy to do that.
Erhart: I thought it was an interesting question.
Terrv Forbord: weII there's a number of Lhings. First of all you have Loremember in today's rifestyles that peopre have, they don't spend a rot ofLime in their fronL vards. r mean if vou think about Hhat you do day inand day out by enjoyment of your private property, the majority of ti-rattime is spent in the rear yard area with your family or just trying to getau,,ay. Most people don't like to watch the cars go by. At one point intime it was exciting mavbe when the vehicle uras the bisgest thing around,lhat r.ras something people liked to do. From a design standpoinL, r thinkif one was just to go out and Iook at this property, you can see veryeasilv where people would like to enjoy their particurar homesites. Thatwould be looking at the habitat we've already discussed. From;- economicstandpoint, iL would prohibit the values of the site just because...
Erhart: t^Je.l I you could only get IoLs on one side of the street.
Terry Forbord: The think that occurs, see one of the problems is wefocused entirely on wetlands and r^rhat we,ve done, I mean we've focusedthat because we know it's a serious issue i.n Chanhassen. l,Je,ve focused
on
on
Planning
July 17,
Commission Meet i ng
7997 - Page 46
that a little bit tonight. one of the things we all forgot to do here is
that you have to look at the whole equation. Do you r,Jant to tlorry about, -do you want to grade the site a lot? So in other words you have to cut
down alI the trees so you can move the dirt different Places to Put
homesites somewhere else so we took not iust lrees into the equation. l'le
took not just uretlands. Not just wildlife but we took people urho live
Lhere. tje took everything into consideration. Now there uere a lot of
very good points raised by every sPeaker Lonight. Every single one of Lhern
was taken into consideration into Lhe design. The kev is the balancing
acL. tjhere is the fine Iine where Lhe ultimate balancing act is so the
optimum is created with Lhe least impacL on the entire site. Is it worth
filling a good large Portion'of a uetland to save one tree? That's the
balancing act He have !o do. h,le've done that over and over again.
Erhart: okay. Just the last item. There's one reoccurring theme I hear
here from Joe and Eric and the olher individual here was a great concern
for that northwest corner. I think maybe what we need Lo do in lhe nexL
meeting is, Rick you kind of stated you had a good reason to move it to
Ieft instead of the right. Mavbe what ue need to do is have a good
explanation when your final decision for everybody to understand nhy you
picked that parLicular site and not get into it tonight, I think that
would be helpful for everYbody.
Terry Forbord: Actually we'II address each concern that ulas raised by aII
the individuals tonight and explain in detail why we chose what we did.
Becauee like I say, you have to take Lhe whole equation to understand...
Emmings: tlhat do you think about doing it
as a straight subdiv ision?
as a PUD as oPPosed to doing it
the
Erhart: I think if time Permits,
done because you avoid setting the
the deve.Loper js willing !o do it
way.
that's obviously Lhe wav it should be
precedent of aII the variances. So if
as a PUD, I think we ought to do it that
Emmingsr Yeah, and so do I. Go ahead.
Batzli: Can you puL the overhead back up which shot^ls Lhe develoPment in
the conLext of the surrounding develoPmenL? My general philosophicaL, two
question philosophical questions. one is, it appears to me that Lhere is a
higher density here obviously than the areas directly surrounding it and it
appears as Lhough some of the problems wiLh seLbacks and looking at iL as a
PUD is in part because h,e are shoe horning a lot of things in there -
Compared Lo Lhe surrounding ProPerties. f mean I think they're nice sized
lots but you look at what's around it and thev are smal]er. I'd like to
I guess see maybe fewer lots put in Lhere Personally - The olher thing is
addressed to our planning staff and that is, Paul . Has there been any
thought as Lo hor^r lhe properties Lo Lhe u,est are going to develop and the
effect of placing Lhe road that close to the boundarv line and would it
make more sense to Lry and stub something off bn the side or has there been
any thought on that?
Krauss: In fact Lhere's been a fair bit of thought on that- It hasn't
been mapped out but the Lundgren ProPosal was originallv' I don't knor'l if
Planning
Ju)y 77,
Commission HeeL i ng
1991 - Page 47
it r^rae intended to but they intended to Nork out an arrangemenL with theadjoining properly owner, Coey. Bring that into the plat and it had sornenice adrrantages. Unfortunately they weren't able to do that. So He,rereft to deal with what ue can. t^le have looked aL that area to some extent.For example we know that there's no way to provide sewer into this areawiLhout a IifL station. The rift sLation that Lundgren is proposing, r^le'rehaving a stub go out to the coey property so that can be extended along thelake as property ohrners need it. In my view it,s unfortunate for bothproperties that the Coey property wasn't brought into this at the same time.because Lhat's going to be very. difficult to develop by itself
BatzLir It's going to be impossible almost from 1ooking at it
Terrv Forbord: May r just address that? Because r think r can answer manyof the questions immedi.ately on that. There,s some naturaL features ofthis area that if things u,ere on an ideal situation, would dictate thatsome properties be incorporated with other properties. There,s 4.8 acresof the Hestern, excuse me the eastern section of the coey property thatLends jtself to being incorporated with the Ortenblat property. primarilybecause there is a ravine, there's a knoll, there,s a uetiand and thenlhere's another wetland. So in actual configuration r.rourd s; ;;;.ihi;9like this.. Do',^rn like this and then back down like thaL and iL,s about 4, 47/2 acyes. Not very large piece of property. It should be incorporatedwith this. There's no wav vou can make a link of a street to'tiri, t"-iitor serve just Lhose 4 acres. rt wc,uld have to be incorporated here anclthis street would have to be servicing it. t^le looked .t th.t. The onlyway for Mr. Coey in the future, if he ever chooses to develoF, that part ofhis site' would be to have to cuL all the trees dob,n and fiII in the ,"uin"with some kind of a mass grading on that piece of property-to connect ituriih another road, He told us it didn't make any difference be"ause h"didn't Hant to develop it anyway which is a right that he certainLy has andso r.re did research all those different components and met with staif andtried to see what could be done and actually the best way to serve thepropertv Hould be off of Lake Lucy Road at this point in time on the coeyproperty- And getting back to the other question, the properly is zonedRSF. rt meets the land use guide plan and all the criteria of the existingcomprehensive plan. r believe that RSF zoning crassificati.on is a 1.4dwelling units per acre and this is 1.2 so it;s almost at the very lor.lestdensity that is allowed in that particular zoning district.
Batzli: r understand that. r tried to preface that by saying r personalrywould like to see that, r understand thaL it meets criteria and comparedto my postage stamp sized lot, these are mammoth but that's another issue.Paur, has any consideration been done? Granted the gentleman who or.Jns theproperty to the west doesn'L currentry want to develop but for exampre whenuJe r{ere looking at Vineland and some of those other things, we hadengineering look at hor.r the heck are we going to service these things ifthey develop. Has any Lhought, has our engineering department or hive youguys looked at it?
Krauss: t,le have- rJe've done it in house. tJe haven't gotten it formarlydone up for vou and frankly the thought of not connecting up to Lake Lucyat this time and leaving a leg to be connected across the coey property inthe future did occur to us. t^le didn,t pursue it at great length. you know
Planni ng
Ju)y 77,
Conrmission Meet i n9
7997 - Page 48
if you had your druLhers as Hr. Forbord's saying, if the road would have
come out over there. tJe could still force it that uray but that's an auful
long dead end cul-de-sac that would exist for an indeterminant time. t^le
could look at Lhat a little further if you'd like.
Batzli: I don't knour. It just seems, I have to go out and look at that
site too because I didn't recognize that it'd be that tough to stub
somet h i n9 out .
Joe Morin: Can I say something?
tsatzli : yeah,
Joe Mcrin: If Ted says he doesn't want to ever develop, that'd be just
great wilh me because I don't Hant to develoP either - So that Property
would stay iust ]ike it is for the next few vears.
Batzli: tJeII yeah I recognize he doesn't want to do that now but in 20
years when he does develop it. Anyway, 'enough of that.
Terry Forbord: I think it urould be, we've actually laid out Lhat whole
area. tJe rve done 3 0y 4 concepts trying Lo figure out...as you suggested
and the topography, if you saw a topograPhy map of the area and then go on
the site, i!;d be easier to understand why that link between thes6 two
can't be made. I believe ure submitted to the staff, the engineering
department those layouts so they can see those. I'm sure they'll share them
uith the planning Commission at the next meeting so they can understand.
Batzli; The question about looking at the back yards from the road I
thoughL ulas an interesting one buL I think as Lundgren's pointing out, they
really, you h,ant to Put the back yards around that wetland so that's an
intereeting observation to kind of make. From Lake Lucy Road what are you
going to be seeing? That's interesting. t^lhat does the DNR think of these
expeiimental ponds? Have you guys had an oPPortunity to talk to them?
Krauss: t"Jell let's focus a little bit on the experimental issue a little
bit and maybe Frank could expand on this. Ue like to think we're on the
culting edge of a lot of this stuff and I think we are in lerms of we want
to use Lhis stuff in the real world and do Lhis. The concePt of these
ponds has existed for quite a while. The State Board of Soil and Water
Conservation Service has published a manual on how to do this a couPle of
years ago. The Hetro council required that we do these kinds of things as
a matter of police as a condition of approval Hilh our comprehensive PIan.
They required the same thing of Eden Prairie and everybody else that comes
before them. It's called Best Hanagement Practices. tle are trying Lo
break some ground here but He're not, Lhis is not an experimental Program
that has a hish risk potential that uon'! work. I mean the science behind
this is preLty clear. The designs of these things are Prettv cl'ear. l^lhere
I think r.:hat Frank was touching on where the art comes in is how you put
together all these elements to achieve what you really r',a nt to in the
wetland. It's clear to anyone that looks at Lhis that bre're doing a much
better job r.rith this one that has been done in the Past. The degree of
effectiveness is someLhing that you have Lo see so f shy away from Lhe
Planning
July 77,
Commission Meeti ng
7997 - Page 49
semantics of calli.ng it an experiment, I really don't believe that that'sthe case.
Frank gvobcda: Nhen I spoke about it being experimental I wasn't talkingabout the waLer ponds. That concept has been around for quite some time.The experimenLal or trial aspect of this is a question of what,s going tohappen when we try to alter the water chemistry of the wetland that,s beendegraded. That's where the results of that aren't unclear. certainly ourintent is we're trying to take, ue know trhat the condition of the waterquality of that wetland is today. Even if we improve that 252 above whereit is nour, we've made some marked progress so that's what the trial aspectof this is- rf we improve that water qualily 2o2., how is the vegetationand hor.r is the wildlife going to respond? That,s the part of what I wasdescribing that's a trial aspect. So the storm water ponds, the !.lalkerconcept has been around for quite some time. rn fact Lhat concept has beenadopted bv the NUR program. National Urban Runoff program and this ponddesign is actually incorporated into those standards so Lhat part is notexperimental.
Batzli: And one final question if r could for Terry. can r ask what yourrange is going to be for the homes in this? your kind of targe! range.l"lhat you're thinkinE, right now.
Terrv Forbord: Thai's an excellent question. Sorry r didn,t address thatearlier. The price range of homes in this area irr today,s dollars would besomewhere of about $15o,ooo.oo to $22o,ooo.oo-$21o,ooo.oo. That,s r^.hsr- ourprel imi nary estimates are.
Emmings: That's the home or home and lot?
Terry Forbord: Home and lot.
Erhart-: tlhat are the lots going to run?
Te:-;7 Forbord: The lots, again this is rear preliminary because you don'tknow until you're aII done. I urouldn,t be surprised they,re someraherebetween $4O,OOO.OO and $65,OOO.OO.
Emm i ngs : Thanks
Farmakes: In your
r ight?
development if you sell the Lot, you do the development
Terrv Forbord: Risht. Lundgren Bros. primarily develops rear estate foriL's own benefit. Over the years, Lhe 22 years that ue,ve been inbusiness, periodicarly some of the larger scare neighborhood cornmunitiesthat we've deveroped, we've alloured a feur builders that ue,ve done businesswith and that are friends of ours to come in and build a home here andthere. This particular neighborhood community is quite smalI.. It,s only35 homes thal are for sa.Le and the intent is for Lundgren Bros, toconsLruct all of the homes in this parLicular development.
Farmakes: Therethat borders this little sai.d tonight in regards to the wetlandin here. It's a different Lype of uetland.
hlas very
area up
Planning
July 77,
Commission MeeL i ng
7991 - Page 50
Basica)Iy I believe the wetland picks up a majority of all these lots here
and then it goes up into there. The southeast corner of that. I'd like to
see mor"e information on that wetland. At leas! as much as you have on the
class A wetland up above where it's marked *2. The majority of the
discussion Lhat we had there was in regards to that r.retland. Your ProPerty
and your development also borders that Iower one. I'd like to hear more
information jn regards to how that tlould be effected. The tyPe of wetland
that it is and so on.
Terry Forbord: t^lould you like to hear that tonight? ThC reason we focused
on Lhe oLher one is because that one is. . .
Farmakes: f understand that. I
is in better shape. That is the
1a ke?
wondering, f'm assuming that one
I believe befo.re it gets inLo theuJas just
last one
Terry Forbord: Frank's more qualified to discuss that than I am'
Farrnakes: I have just a couple more quick things. If we can Put that
other schema!ic uP.
Emmings: It's just getting too late.
interested in that and we're going to
have the publ ic hearing.
Farmakes: No. I just want to Iist it as a question.
response right now but I would like to hear more about
that you had up prior to that.
I think trhat he's saying is he's
be asking you about it when we do
Emmings: Take whatever time you uJant. If you Hant him to answer it now.
I don't need a
that. The schemati c
Farmakes: Yeah. f guess I don't have any Problem that you made a
conserted effort to deal uiLh the barriers that you could to the south.
There is a }arge wetland there and a lot of those lots ]ook a]ot larger
than they really are in Lhe Greenurood area. Greenwood Shores area. To Lhe
north there's the highway lhere separati.ng the tHo. I'm concerned to the
uest and I'd like to see the ProPosed plan, the Coey develoPment, that
topography as it goes west is Pretty dramatic.. There's a lot of hills and
valleys and terrain is Pretty severe toPograPhy. I tlould like to know, I
knor,r that you're not going to develoP the ProPerty to the west at least
right now r.rith Lhis proposal bu! I'm concerned about tlhat tvPe of buffers
potentially could be there betueen homes in the !3250,Ooo.OO or $21o,OOO.OO
range that you said or the $15O,ooo.Oo to $21O,OOo -oO and the tyPes of
homes that go to the west. That reallv hasn't been addressed in these
schemaiics. I'm a Iittle concerned that that housing density goes right uP
to the west there and I think there are some natural buffers to the north
and to the south. To the west there's the highwav there. Or bxcuse me' to
the east. So in general I like the fact Lhat it seems like a natural thine
for a PUD. At least the criteria lhat we discussed. I suPPort that it's
bei n9 done lhat r^,,a y . But I do have concer ns about lhe density of it i n
relaLionship to how it would work wesL. And that's it. That's the end of
my comments.
Terry Forbord: This one?
PIanni ng
July 77,
Commission l,leeting
799! - Page 51
Emmings: f can't tell from looking at the drawings that are in front of us
hor,: much actual area there is on a Iot of Lhese lots. On the Exhibit I,once you get the r^retland in there and f assume that the purpLe line that'son there is the uretland at the higher level that it's designed to be atafter it's deeper. And then you get the wetland setback area. There's nota whole Iot of, it doesn't look like there,s a lot of room on Lhe lot andI'm going to be interested to see what kind of ground we've got there. Ithink it should be done as a PUD. I think you've obviously done atremendous amount of work trying to put something Logether that'sappropriate for the area. r don't think r have a problem Hith the densitybut like Jeff mentioned, there's a lot of those lots look real big and ofcourse they're going to be, there's a lot of wetland area. aut r think itshourd be developed as a puD- Just one other question r have. There was acomment made over here that, r don't remember who made it now. Maybe ituas Eric. But someone said that the problrms uith the amount of nutrientsthat are in that area at this time is a vestige of it's use as anagricultural area. Is that rig,ht? Can you maybe ansuler that one quick?rs the problem that there dere a lot of fertilizers or something on Lhat atone time that's stil] making that nutrient rich? Is that true?
Frank Svoboda: That certainly, what happens is Lhere's only th.lo waysnutrients can leave a wetland. Either it,s flushed out wit'h water whenit's suspended or else when it's tied up in the vegetation. you come inarrd cut t.he vegetation and haul it away.
Emmings: And if you don,t haul that vegetation away, it recyc Ies?
recycles in theconsLant I y
Emmings: Is there something you
permanently under water ?
can do about that before you put this alI
Frank svoboda: t^JerI we were somewhat facetiously talking about this theother dav. The suggestion came up to drain it and put corn on it for about3 or 4 vears and don't put any fertilizer on it. Take atl the vegetationoff and vou take all the crop off and basically the consequences is you tiethe nutrients up in the growing material and then you haul it out of there.And Lhey've done this with cattails for example in some instances wherethey've all.oured the cattails to reach a certain stage of nutrientconcentration and then come in and cut aII the cattails off and haul them
away .
Emmings: You said facetiously rig,ht?
Frank Svoboda: It falls doun and dies so itsystem and continue to add more nutrients...
Frank svoboda; tlell the ansurer is you're not going to or you can't turnLhat into a corn field anymore because it's a protected wetland. Theconcept is Lhat you do something like that. you raise a crop, uhether it'scorn or cattails or whatever. That is really the only way to get rid ofthat nutrient accumulation. you get it suspended in the uater and frush itout or tie it up in...and harvest it.
Emmings: So r.Jhat's your plan then? t^lhat are we doing with that?
PIanni ng
JuIy 17,
Comrnission MeeL i ng
7991 - Page 52
Frank Svoboda: The third alternalive is to add more !^,ater tlith ]ess
nutr ients i n it -
Emrnings: And then over time the hope or the PIan is thaL that will what?
Frank Svoboda: If you reduce or
enter inLo the system, then over
those .leveIs will diminish.
stabi I ize Lhe
some extended
amount of nutr ients that
per iod of time, gradually
Emmings: Alright. And what about it continuing to be fed bv back vard
runoff from the use of ferti.Iizers?
Frank Svoboda: That's one of the benefits of the PUD is that vou can
increase that setback in the backyards and then you have Lhat strip of
natural vegetation between the cultured lawn and the edge of the wet.land.
So that standing vegetation that remains natural would catch, will
intercept .ny ,rtri"r,t rich runoff before it gets inlo the wetland. so by
going to the PUD concePL vou've accomPlished two things- One is LhaL
ior'r. minimalLy reduced the amount of area that's cultured grass and is
subject to fertilization across the entire subdivision. secondly, you
*orid h"r. this natural buffer that will pick up any of the nutrient rich
water and reLain the nuLrients there in Lhe uPland and hold it'
Ernrnings: tJhat,s going in this natural buffer area? Is it trees? shurbs?
Grass or all three or whatever? tlhatever hapPens to groH there?
Frank Svoboda: tlelI primarily rieht now' dePending on where they're at,
it's either Lrees, variety of sPecies or mostly groHn grass.
Emmings: So you're just going to Ieave whaL's there? Is that the idea?
Frank Svoboda: Risht, And the other thing is, Terry's answer was, if we
raise the water .Ievel , we're going to increase or shift that zone of
saturation so nou1 it,s canary grass and catt.ails and grown grass u,ilI Lurn
into canary grass or something else. In terms of I think a couPle of
spots we did talk about introducing some oLher vegeLation. one location
was here where we have this curve in thj.s pubLic street and the idea was to
steepen this sLope 2:1. Make iL 2:1 slope to minimize what encroachment
there might be into that wetland. Then the other offsetting factor would
be some habitat landscaPi ng
Emmings: I can tell you one thing that's going to be of interest to us is
what kind of, how is that we're going to keeP PeoPle from pushing their
Lawn mowers into the conservation area. Is there going to be a siren that
goes off r^rhen they do Lhat because that's going to haPPen. It's haPPened Lo
us over and over.
Terry Forbord: I't] just touch upon Lhat briefly because that is something
that the city should deal urith. Not just now but also in the future and
we've al.reacly dealt with that in a couple of aieas. Some of them right
here in Chanhassen and very recent in TrapPer's Pass 4th but in anoLher
exarnple r.rouLd be in a neighborhood community that He've recent.l-y develoPed
in PlymouLh called Bay Point on Hoonev Lake. There's a number of Lhings
Planning
July 77,
Commission Meet i ng
7997 - Pase 53
Give them the packet and then teII them there's a tesL at the
you
and
do. Deed restrictions on each lot, Easements that run with the lotenforcement aspects that the municipality has.
Emmings: I think r^re've talked from time to time here about havingsomethins that marks it on the property. I think that should be Lhere.visible reminder to each property owner that what's beyond that point intheir yard isn'L just theirs.
Terry Forbord: Additionally you know and this was raised at theneighborhood meeting. r haven't shared with you any of the discussion tha.toccurred at that- rt was about'a 3 !/z hour meeting. r considered it verfproductive. One of the people trho live north of Lake Lucy Road in CurnyFarms shared with me afterwards, they said one of the tnings that h,asfrustrating for them uas that there was never any informational packetgiven to them so they knew what was occurring the day that they bought thehouse. t^lerl in all of our neighborhoods an informational packet is part ofthe purchase agreement as an exhibit that goes into detail aII theeasemenLs that exist on their particular lot. t^lhat they can and they can,tdo.
Terry Forbord: BuL that doesn,t suggest thatjob and ure're looking at that and ue,re tryingthe very things that you raise Steve so those
maybe we can't dc a betlerto find ways to accomplishare good poi nts.
Farmakes moved, BatzIi seconded to adjourn the meeting- AIIand the motion carried- The meeting was adjourned at 11:30
Emmings: Does anybody got anything else or can bre leave?
Submitted by PauI Krauss
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
voted in favor
P -m. .
Emmi ngs :
end.
EH[NH[SEEN
690 COULTER ORIVE ' P.O. BOX.I47 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
TO
MEMORANDIJI.,I
FROM:
DATE:
SUBJ :
Planning Conmission
Paul Xrauss, PLanning Director
August 2, L99l
Report fron the Director
At the City Council of July 22,
taken:
1991, the following actions were
The City Council authorized execution of the contract betrreenBonestroo, Rosene, Anderlik and Associates and the City of
Chanhassen to undertake work associated hrith the Surface l{ater
lilanagement Plan.
The wetland alteration permit for Herman field park for theCity of Chanhassen rras approved on the consent agenda.
OTHER TTEMS
t
2
Moon va11ev: Staff has attenpted to keep the planning Conmission
and City Council inforned as to the progress, or in this case thelack of progress, on our attempts to have the lIoon ValLey craveloperation comply with conditions of the cityrs grading and niningordinance. You r.rilI reca1l the ordinance which was adopted lastyear requires existing operations to file an application to obtaina permit to operate within six nonths from the date of approval ofthe ordinance. The lloon Valley operator has consistently ignoredthe cityrs requests to respond and is aLso currently in vioLationof a judgeis ruling that an application be filed by ![ay 25th. Thecity has bent over backwards to work t ith this party and we arestill hopeful that some progress may be made in the near future.
we were scheduled to go back to the judgers chambers on Thursday,August lst with a request that Judge Kanning shut dorrn theoperation for lack of coropliance. At the eleventh hour, theconsultant r^rho was recently retained to rrork on preparing pl,ans forthe project net with staff and the city Attorney. He indicatedthat he is working diligently to produce application docurnents. He
sho!,red staff an outrageously bad concept plan for the site whichgenerally shows cutting of the entire bluff line and Lowering it by
CITY OF
Non-Conformincr Beachlots: At the last neetinq, staff discussed thepossibility of nodifying ordinances to require non-conforningbeachlots to come into the city and obtain a pernit. The purposebehind this is that the current beachlot ordinance as it pertainsto non-confonring beachlots is rather difficult to enforce. Thecity has sorne evidence dating fron tiro occasions in the 1980s as towhat we believe to have been present at the site at the tine theoriginal ordinance was adopted and what was present on the sitesfive years Iater. ff we are asked to respond to a conplaint abouta non-conforming beachlot at this tine, this infornrtion is theonly evidence that the city has to offer as to what in fact waspresent and grandfathered in at the tine the ordinance rras adopted.
We have found that in trying to work vith this naterial that thisevidence is less than ideal, particularly if natters are pursued toa courtroom setting. ft is very difficult to docunent rrhat in factwas there at some point in the past, particularly when it conflictswith information, anecdotal or otherwise, that is being offered bypast and current users of the beachlot. Based upon theie concerns,staff proposed and the City Council and planning Cornnissionsupported, the revision of a beachlot ordj.nance to require theseoperations to obtain a pernit froro the city. this pernit couLd beused in two rnanners. rt wouLd be used to docunenf the arlowabreuses on .-he site and would be filed with the title on the propertyand thereby creating a pernanent and enforceabre record -toi trrEcity. It could also provide a forurn in which the city couldproduce evidence we have pertaining to grandfathered uses. on theproperty and an attempt to roll back any recent increases to theactual grandfathered status.
r have asked Kathryn Annenson to pursue this natter. over the nextt\ro nonths, she will be visiting non-conforming beachlots andattempting to document, using photos and video tafe, exactly rrhatis there to date. We wili then be setting ub tneeting;' rrithindividual, associations.to di.scuss the pending 6r,.riga io 1-rr.il""i"gordinance and ask then to produce infornatioi so tirat ,r" ,.y "or"
Planning Cornmission
August 2, L99l
Paqe 2
approxinately 160 feet. 'I believe the city would find thisunacceptable on environmental and visual grounds. He did, however,indicate that he has talked to lrlr. Zweirs and has an aiternativeplan developed which would save large parts of the treed bluff lineand allow 1ow density. residential developnent to occur on the topof the bluff. He indicated that he would be working diligently onthis proposal and would subnit cornpleted application docrinents nolater than Augrust 31, 1991. In discussions with the City Attorney,we decided that we would rnake one last good faith etfort to workwith then on this project. we have cororn-unicated to Judge Xannintthat.we are requesting that the hearing be continued and conveyedto hin our repeated attenpts to be cooperative ori this matter.Staff will keep the City Council posted on developnents as theyoccur.
Planning Conrrnission
August 2, \99L
Page 3
to an understanding as to what is 1ike1y to be reconrnended forapproval under this process. We would anticipate that pubLichearings would be held on these pernits sone tiue during thewinter. It is Likely that since large nurbers of peopte r.rould haveto be notified of these neetings and that this is a highly voLatileissue that these rneetings would be crowded ones. we wiff 1ike1yhave to take each lake on an individual basis to provide the properfocus for these neetings. please let either Kathy or nyselt knowif you have any questions about this process.
Highwav 5 Studv: As the Planning Conruission is aware, city staffis currently in the proces.s of developing a partnership agieenentbetween ourselves, the University of llinnesota and the lindscapeArboretun to do design studies of the Highlray 5 corridor. t{ebelieve that this could be a highly innovative progran that wouldserve as the basis for rojining city ordinancLs 1n areas alongHighway 5 as well as developing an irnplementable corridor plan]which hrould include the 1995 study area located at the interseltionof Highr^rays 5 and 41 .
As it is currently developing, this prograrn is to be a coo'perativearrangement between .these_ groups, the cityrs HRA and nlanningComrnission. At this point, it rernains -unclear how plannini
conmission interaction would be structured and r would welcome yourconments on this natter. There are two alternatives as I see it.This group could work directly with the ptanning cornmission in thenanner in which the. Comprehensive plan wal developed. ?hearternative approach is to create a task force that iricorporateslandowners and residents with significant representation fion thePlanning Cornnission. The City Council and XnA nay aLso wish to berepresented in this vork group. Staff is willing to proceed ineither direction and the final deternination wiif Ue the cityCouncilrs. However, I believe your connents lrould be appreciate&on this matter. If a task force is to be created, this E-r-oup woutdLrork through the Planning Connission to review any conflettd workproducts and it would be your reconmendation that- would be passedon to the City Council for consideration.
REVISED AUGUST 7, L99I
2. 1995 Study Area (South)
OTHER ITEI.,IS
L. Blending Ordinance
2. Rezoning BF Dist. to A2
4.* Siqrn Ordinance
Tree Protection OrdinanceMapping of significantvegetative areas
6. Rezoning 2! Acre Lots to RR
STATUS
Joint PCICCIHRA Corridor BusTour held on June 8, 1991.Entering into contract t ithUniversity of Uinnesota staffto work with city on the study.
Inactive
staff directed to developscenarios - low priority
Staff directed to draft apotential new zoning districtordinance. Fish & t{ild1ife andDNR have agreed to expandrefuge boundary to include allland 'lying south of Hwy.L69/2L2.
3 Draft to
Conmission
June 19, 1991.in Auqiust.
the PLanningPubIic Hearing
Second hearing
Staff is proposing that a workgroup be established by thellayor to begin nork inSeptenber. Progran to beconpleted by early sunmer,
1992 -
5 MnDNR conpleted napping progranand will work with city todevelop. New ordinance laterin 1991
hearing in
Consultant interviewsccnducted. Bonestroo, Anderlikar: Rosene selected. work rrilLbe started this sumner pendingsuccessful contractnegotiations.
7. Wetland ordinance
ONGOING ISSUES
Comprehensive PIan fssues
1.* 1995 Study Area (North)
and H!ry. 5 Corridor Study
Bluff Protection
ordinance
Schedule public
August, 1991.
8. Shoreland ordinance
croup hone ordinance
Rura1 Area Policies -
Pc input in Downtorrn
Planning and Traffic Study
Review of Architectural
Standards to Pronote High
Quality Design
L4.
11. * Landscaping standards
72. PUD ordinance
In January we receivednotification from the tlnDNRthat we are a priority
cornmunitywitha2year
deadline
1991/inactive
City request to elininatenininum lot size requirementshas been subrnitted to MetroCouncil. Ordinance revisions
required.
Planning conrnission 8/7 / 97.city Council adoption early
septenber.
9
l-0.
Adopted by CC.
on Residential
Work continuing
PUD standards.
t5.B1uff creek corridor
Greenlray
15. * Modifications to beachlotordinance - Re: Non-
conforning beachlots
* Change in status since lastreport
19 91longo ing
19 91
t99L/1992
Fall , Lggl/Winter, 1992
13.
CITY OF
EH,lNH[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
ME},IORANDI'M
TO:
FROU:
DATE:
SUB':
PLannihg Conmission
Paul" Krauss, Planning Director
August 2, L99L
Sign Ordinance Amendnents
The Planning cornrnission and city councir have on several occasionsrequested that staff undertake a program to update our signregulations. Over the course of several reviLws, staff hasrepeatedly indicated that our sign ordinance is poorly drafted andin our opinion inadequate to dea] with the kinds of developnentthat we are experiencing. Until recently, I have been somewhatreluctant to start this task due to the cornnittnent and staff tineI believe r ould result fron doing this job properly. However, withthe recent addition of Kathryn Aanenson to our staif, we are now ina position to nove fonard on this uork program. Kathryn hasexcellent experience in preparing ordinances on this topic havingrecently completed one for the comraunity she worked for in Utah.
Attached to this nemo is a prelininary outline and work program forthis project. It anticipates that approximately ten nonths-wi11 berequired to complete the work.
I am currently asking the planning Cornrnission and City Council forsorne direction on how we should organize the group woiking on thisordinance. The nornal course oi action i; for staff to rrrorkthrough the PLanning Conrnission on the drafting of new ordinances.we are willing to do it in this manner, however, we believe theremay be a better alternative for several reasons. First of all, thePlanning Cornmission rrorkload wilL continue to grow over the comingtmonths as the recession eases and people begin to take advantage oithe MUSA line relocation. The planning Conmission also has a-backfog of work tasks awaiting attention. Secondly, sign ordinancesare highly specific documents and we believe that for then to beprepared in a rnanner that adequatety acconnodates the needs of boththe community residents and the busj.ness conmunity, that sone non-Planning Conmission representation uould Ue appropriate.Therefore, I an recommending that a work group Ue estlf:.ished bythe rnayor. We would anticipate reconmending to- ttre nayor that thii
Planning Comnission
August 2, L99l
Page 2
work group include two nembers of the Planning cornnission, one ortwo rnenbers of the city Council, a nenber of the Chanber of
Commerce or other group representing the dorrntolrn business
corarnunity, and possibly a responsible person frorn the signindustry. l{e have several individuats on the Planning Cornrnission
who have a design background which nay prove to be of particularuse in this process. Should the Planning Cornrnission agree withthis work group approach, f would recornmend that you pass along the
nanes of interested individuals and your conments to the mayor forfinal action at an upcoming Council meeting.
HEMORANDUU
I have nade a tentatlve outllne for revrltlng theI feel the uhole process vlll take approxlnatelynlne months to a year. Please let ue knovdirection you vould like to take.
slgn ordlnance.
If this ls the
1
2
Heet clth the Clty Councll and Plannlng connlsslon foE thetr
re conme ndlat i ons for any changes or speclflc areas of coDcern.
Have then nokt the revrlte process.a. Shou shat, EumDarlze, vhat other connunttle8 use for
s lgn standards.b. Brlng in a Professlonal expert regarallng trenils ln theslgn Industry.
Set up a connlttee that vould Inclutle nenbers of the Charnber,CIty Councll and Plannlng Counlsslon (others they Day vant toinclude: people fron the slgn inilustry, retal1lng andconnerclal leaslng) to revrlte the ordlnance.
set up regular vork sesslons vlth the connlttee to get the
ordlnance revrltten. (Approxlnately 6 nonths)
3
4 sollclt connents fron the PublIc antl Prlvateforvard these to the PIannlng Connlsslon andCouncil. (One nonth )
Sector andthe clty
5 Publlc hearlng before the Planning Connlsslon andl the clty
Council and adoptlon of nev ordlnance. (One nonth)
TO3
FROU :
DATE:
SUBJECT :
Paul Krauss
Xathryn .lanenson
JuIy 1?, 1991
Proposal for Slgn Ordlnance Revl8lon
Proposed flork Schetlule for the Slgn ordtnance
Meet ulth Plannlng
Connission and Ci ty
Councll to rtO.K.r
revrite process
Revlev other
coBBunity standards,lndlustry trends
SEPTEMBER OCTOBER
Establ lsh
Connlttee
to revr lte
Ord I nance
NOVEMBER -APR I L
Resrlte dur lng
Breakfast or Lunchtlork Sess i ons
SoIlct comnentsfroD the Publ lc
andl Prlvate Sector
HAY
Plannlng
connlsslon andClty Counc 11Publlc Hear lngs
JUNE
Adotption of
neY s lgn
ord lnance
JULY