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PC 1994 02 16CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING FEBRUARY 16, 1994 Scott ca[lcd thc meeting to order at 7:30 pxn. MEMBERS PRESENT: Joe Sco~ Ladd Conrad, Nancy Mancino, Icff Famud~ and Diane Harberts MEMBERS ABSENT: Matt Ledvina STAFF PRESENT: Paul Kranss, Planning Director, Ka~ Aanenson, Senior Planne~, Sharmin Al-laff, Planner I; Dave Hempel, Asst. City Engineer, and Fred Hoisington, Consultant for Highway 101 ~gnment PUBLIC HEARING: .REVIEW AND SEI,RCT ALIGNMENT OF HIGHWAY 101 FOR USE Wi~.N IT IS WIDENED IN THE FUTURE. APPROVAL OF ~ "OFFICIAL MAPPING" OF THE SELECTED ALIGNMENT. THE SECTION OF I~IGHWAY BEING EVALUATED STARTS AT I~IGHWAY $ AND RUNS SOUTH TO LYMAN BOULEVARD, Public Present: Name Ad~ A1 Klingelhutz 8600 Gre~ Plains Blvd. Fred Hoisington presented the report on thig ~ Scou: Any questions? Mancino: Yes. I have a few questions. Pred, which alive is the most expensive? Have you done pricing on 1, 27 Hoisington: Well we haven't really done Nancy pricing but I can tell you that the two alternatives, the one, 2 and 3. Maucino: Are the most cxpcnsivc? Hoisingtom 4 would be the next. And of course the cheapest one woold be the use of the existing ali~t. Mancino: And are 2 and 3 twice as much as 47 Hoisingwn: No. I wouldn't say they're twice as much as 4. 4 really tak~ a pretty good cut through the topography. There's going to be a lot of cut and fill assodat~ with that but I would say it's twice as much or more than 1. Maucino: And between 2 and 3, do you have an idea which one is more costly? Hoisington: I would say Nancy that they're very close to the same. The difference would be that you're probably taking the two houses would make a difference but we're also leaving right-of-way on the other side of the road so it's kind of hard to say that it would be that, equal to the cost of those two houses. But very close to the same I would say. Mancino: And another question Fred. When we, if we were to go in and do, let's see 2. We would §o into the wetland area which has considerable impact and number 3 would also. Where would the mitigation of the wetland take place7 Hoisington: That's a good question. Paul, have you given any coniddea~ion to where7 Mancino: And is it 2 to 17 Krauss: Oh it's 2 to 1. It may even be higher than that given that, dep~__din§ on how you... It would be easier to answer if MnDot was doing the planning. MnDot has the ability to... this virtually anywhere in the State...Now when we do projects in Chanhassen we have a desire to keep the mitigation within our communities since we want to keep the benefit within our community. We don't know where that would go. I ~ you really have to find out exactly how much it is and then you actually have the obligation to buy up that area and do it. I think that there are going to be opportunities to do that. For example the Bluff Creek corridor where we want to estab~ expanded wetlands anyway. We're working with Diane Mancino: Okay. That's it. Scott: Any other7 Conrad: Yeah. In terms of the wetland imp. act, other than sheer size, at this point in time Fred how can you tell us what it will do to the wetland7 There's a lot of functions to the wetland. Will it, in terms of filiration and what have you, will that function be des~yed? Hoisington: Well Ladd there are a number of ways you can deal with wetlands. Paul and I have talked about the possibility of building a causeway. It's not inconceivable but wou_ld be very expensive to build a bridge. Remember, no matter what you do. Whatever you do with Highway 101, you're going to impact that wetland to a degree. It's only a matter of degree Planning Commission Meeting - February !6, 1994 and allm'natives 1 and 4 both affect it. They don't affect it to the same degree as allmmatives 2 and 3 do. The third alternative, other than a causeway ar bridge would be to simply fil! it. In which case there will be substantial damage to the wetland. There will be no wetland in that location and it will simply have to be moved elsewhere. Conrad: $o the fimction of the wetland right now is what? Krauss: Well maybe I can wuch on that. It's~..fairly good quality wetland. That whole wetland, the Rice Marsh Lake wetland suffers serious problems. There used to be a package, sewage trea~t plan ar smalL.plan back before the metro plans were established. And I also heard there was a, maybe A1 can confirm that but a turk~ farm ar something...with the result being that the sediments at the bottom of the lake are very organic and basicnlly...and it's been a problem far us that every _time it rains, it washes that stuff out of Rice Marsh Lake and into Iatke Riley. So it's a problem that needs to be addressed. We don't have all the answers to this Ladd and I think at this stage it's reasonable not to. When we designed... 1Vfinnewashta Parkway, we don't allow the...and those are the things that can be done. I would say though, you've got to ts_Ire the Rice Marsh l. atke ecosystem in it's whole context. You can't just pull out of the western comer of it and work with that. Because otherwise those problems stay there. We're aware of it. It's probably something we can work out a cooperative project with the Watershed District, which was exhibited a number of years ago. Conrad: It's like I don't mind filling the wetiand. I just mind it if it destroys a fimction that can never be replaced. So if it's habitat, we can create habitat some other place. That's not a big deal. But if it's a filtration that costs...I hear what you're saying. It's sort of liire saying we can solve the problem yet we're going to pick an alignment and one has a rating of, a system of less impact and one has more and it's really subjective. I don't mind the mare imp~ except if it's putting this into a leal bad situation and that's sort of like trust me and I'm not sure because we don't know yet. Krauss: Well one of the things State law requires, and Army Corps is this thing called sequencing. That we go through an alternatives analysis to see if it's possible to do this without impacting the wetland. And the conclusion is, no. It's not possible. There's only a narrow neck of land between the two water bodies. It's already occupied by the road. Yes you can decide to do nothing. I mean that's one of the almmative~s we're obligated to look at. Or keep the fight-of-way right whcre it is fight now, which would severely impact all the homes on the lake and arguably come up, you know if you expand the road in place there, you have just as much hard surfa~ area helping all that much more water into the Rice Marsh Lake ecosystem. We still have to treat it. We don't know the answers to all that stuff fight now and I think it's a substantial design effort... I think it's really beyond the scope of what we intend to do fight now. We approach this as a land use and transportation issue. Planning Commission Meeting - Febmm'y 16, 1994 We also approach it from thc standpoint that there are people out there who's homes and lives are affected by this decision and this thing has been up in the air for a number of years and we thought that we owe them some resolution to that. Conrad: Fred, when you mire. down 79 trees, and again I don't mind taking down trees. What' unless it significamfly changes the charac~. 79 as compared to what? When we taka down some old trees, what are we left with out there? Have we destroyed a large percentage of thc hardwoods? Havc we destroyed a small Imxamtage? What's the chamctm' that has been left as we put this road through? Alternative 3 road. Hoisington: Ladd...in thc course of the former alingmea~t' the alignment further to the north, as you know the vegetation there was impact~ but it was not nearly the quality that the vegetation is in _this corridor. Thi.~ will have a si~ificant impact and I, there will be vegetation elected on the east side. I don't believe there will be anything left. There will be along the existing allot of TH 101, some of the major oaks that are there will be left. Vegetation will frame the road on both sides. As far as the percentage of the total stand there, I'm not sure exactly what that percentage would break down to. All I can say it's a significant loss. I think you have to make the assumption, this assumptiom And Paul eluded to this. That if the road is to be improved, there's going to be a substantial i~ You can't avoid it. There's no way you can avoid it in this case. And if for example you were interested in going with alternative 4, which a~ to have a relatively minor ira?act in comparison to alternatives 2 and 3, you also lose something in terms of the vertical alignment of the roadway. What we're able to do in this case is to main~ a 1, for the most part a 1% grade. There's a little stretch that's a little steeper than that but if you end up u2ring to put that all the way down as low as you can make it so you minimally i ,mpact the wetland, you end up with not the best vertical alignment for the road. I don't think there's any way you can avoid a significant impact there. I just don't know how it would be done. And even if we hadn't used, hadn't moved the road over already and fled in at this point, we'd still have to confront these very same problems. ~: I guess I just have co~ts. Fred kind of touched on it. That this is probably a project that the comxtmnity, in t~rms of the values that we try to bring to commission on the environment. That 101 certainly is going to, is a road that's going to have a major, play a major role in the commnnity, espogialXy in the area of devel~t and from my perspect~e, what L Fred I think you did a very good job. You've certainly been w_orking on this for a while but it's probably one where we reatlly have to look at the role that this roadway will play in the community and in a sense bite the bullet with re~ to some of thc values that we're trying to bring to all of the developmenm I guess I would just encourage this commission, as well as the City Council, to look at the alternative that's going to best serve the need of mobility in this community. Planning Commission Meeting - Fehmm'y 16, 1994 Scott: ~Ieff. Fannakes: I support 2. No further comments. I think the issue, if you want me to make some further corrmaents under open discussion. Farrnakes: This is something that has to be done and as the staff representative here has said, there is no easy solution to this and the issue seems to me, ff it has to be done and we're looking at what's the best way to do it. The way with the least amount of impact does not solve the issue of traffic, which is the reason we build highways because they'ze very expensive and if we build them, we should build them well. I think all of us have seen areas of the metro uaffic system that break down in spots and are poorly designed and the reason for that is, not necessarily that they had the oppozm~ty to design them well. There were extraneous, usually exwaneous guidelines that they had to follow. Either politics or neighborhoods or so on. I think that the issue affords to me the maximum return on the least amount of damage and ff there isn't a cost factor, the diff~mce is wash between 2 and 3, I'd go with 2. Harberts: So your prefimmce is number 2 based on if it's a wash of the complete cost? Farmakes: It seems to me that the ~ees issue is a wash. The environment issue is a wash. It seems to me that between 2 and 3, it has less of an impact and again, if you throw everything up in the air, I see 2 I'd support over 3 but 3 would be a close second. I think it has to be done. Score Fred you were mentioning that by the year 2005 there's going to be 11,000 vehicles per day to 13,000. Hoisingmn: 15,000. Scott: To 157 Could you give us an example of a roadway, it so,_mdg like it's about half of Highway 5. If you cam give us an idea of the roadway here. Are we Utlking Powers? And then if you could tell us also, how much traffic does TH 101 have on it today7 Hoisington: TH 101 as recently as, do you have the current traffic7 The traffic has been growing rather dramafi~y on TH 101. When we first started this study we were only like 2,500 vehicles per day just south of Highway 5. I'm going to guess now. That sounds reasonably that we probably have closer to 4, maybe 5 at this point. Of course we've dispersed that a little bit because we still have existing TH 101 which is the curly Q and we Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 also have Market Boulevard. So we're now divirll.§ that up to a degree so it's kind of hard to say what the uaffic is really there wanting to be in that corddor and once the old road is cut off, how much of it is ac~. ~slly over on the other one. As far as a com!~able sUeet as far as traffic volumes in the city, with 15,000, is there another one? buss: Well TH 101 north of TH 5 operate~.. Scott: Oh okay. And that is kind of 2 lanes, kind of 4 lanes. Mostly 2. Krauss: In that state. Scott: Okay. Also too from a speed limit standpoint, who decides the speed and then how does that work with who pays? Hoisington: Well MnDot has a great deal of contwl over your lives when it comes to setting speed limits but typically the way it's establi~ed, I think it's 80% of, David knows that 80% of traffic should lravel at less than the speed limit that you set because you're going to have a certain number of people that are going to lravel in excess of that speed limit in any case. The problem is if you set it wrong. Let's say you set it at 40 and really it should be 50, then you've got a mai problem in this case and I guess that decision will have to be made laler and if it's determined that it's a 50 m?h roadway, then there will have to be some super elevations. It won't change the alignment or anything loc, it will just simply have a kilt to it. Scott: It will change the cost Hoisington: It will change the cost. Well the cost probably won't be that much different- I wouldn't say there would be that much cost diff-erenc~. It's just a m.__-~_ of tipping it so that people can stay on it. Scott: Okay. And then, let me fl~inir. Also fi'om a waiting standpoint, and I can appreciate where you're coming from and having everything being equal If the other commissioners want to do t~i~, do you feel it'd be appmpda~ to talk a little bit about which of these items should be weighted more heavily than others, if any? Because I took at look at one, I was trying to determin~ what would be at least in my mind the least important and I have to ask Fred a question about, when you talk about the impact on the trail I notice that the third alternative, I think if you took that particular i~ out or if you minimize it's weight, then the alternatives becon~ within 1 or 2 points and it ~ much becottr~ a wash. So if you could please tell us a little bit about your thoughts on impact of the trail and is it a cost item? is it a safety item? Is it both? Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Hoisington: It's a grade sc-paragon situation loc. With alternatives 2 and 3 you actually can run the trail underneath the roadway. With alternatives 1 and 4, you will have at grade crossings. The whole idea was to ~y i .m!'-act the wetland. Get the road down as low as you can get which lrwams you can't pass a trail ~th it without putting a sump pmnp or whatever down there to accommodate it. So it really is a matter of grade separation. That's the whole difference in that. Now, I thinlr that's pretty i .m!xaXant and I would give that some weight but there are things, there are criteria in there that probably are not equal in importance to some of the others in this case and we haven't tried to suggest that one is or is not. In that ease trails is grade separation, that's what the difference is. Scott: Okay. Do any of the other commissioners want to discuss the weighting at all or just take it as is and go from there? Mancino: Let somebody else do it. Conrad: Joe, it's impossible to figure out. Scott: Okay, good. I wants! to toss that out to see if anybody want to go with it. Any other co--ts or questions for city stuff? Conrad: lust one. There is a median in alternative 2 and not in alternative Hoisingwn: Both of them have medians. They're both almost identical roadways Ladd. 24 foot. Mandno: I have a quick question. On page 17 under trails. The last paragraph be/ore the park and ride transit. It says that a recreational lane will be separated from the auto uaffic by a jersey barrier. Hoisington: Yes. Mancino: What's that? Hoisington: Up here on Highway 5, the railroad bridge has a jersey barrier. But I think that one also has a fence above it. The reason it has a fence is because it's so tight to the traffic lane. I believe that's why there's a fence. This one we would not want to see a fence on top of because we think it's ugly to begin with. But it'd be the same jersey ban'ier. Stands about 3 1/2, is it David, feet tall? And it's just one of those things to separate Nancy thc traffic from the pedestrian. Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Maucino: So if I'm looking at Hgure 6, Section B? Or Section C and I go to the right side of the page, where it says proposed 240 feet right-of-way. There is that 10 foot trail. Inbetween the 10 foot ~ratl and the right-of-way is this jersey bazfier? Hoisington: No. No. The jersey barrier we'll only have on the hrkige. The Highway 212 bridge. That's the only place it will be. Mancino: Okay, thank you. Scott: Good. Any other comments? This is a public hearing so ff anybody would either like to speak either for a particular alive or against a particular alternative, please step forward and slate your name and your address into the microphone and if you have any exhibits or anything, we'll try to help you position them so they can be picked up on the video. Al Klingelhutz: I'm Al Klingelhutz. I live on 8600 Gre~ Plains Blvd in Chanhassen. I guess it's just too bad that Highway 212 is being delayed as much because vimmily all of this road would have been built by the State Highway Depaztment because it's going to be a major wad into the city of C~anhassen. A collector street. I'm not going to talk about what Fred mentioned before about the assessments. I think we can talk about that later. But I really think it's time that the ]_snrlowners, and I'm one of them. Keith Bans was ready to sell his property in 1988. A lot of discussion on this road in '89. Where it was going to go. I've got four purchase agreements in my file at the office that were offers far Bans' property at that time and because of the fact the road alignment was never set, they all backed away from it. Today I've got another purchase agreea~t on Barts ~ and I guess in order to make the sale come through we're going to have to have a mapping of that road so that any developer that comes in actually will know where that road's going to go. It's been a problem. I know we've had 2 or 3 neighborhood meetings. A good share of the people at these meetings approved alternate 3. Number 3. I don't think any one of the alternative~, even though they're, put alternate 4 up there once more Fred .... and to me I think alternate 4 would affect the wetland more than any one of the other alternates. It's closer to Rice Marsh Lake and there is more potential for any more wetland in there. HoisingWn: This one you're talking about Al? Al Klingelhutz: The one that swung out the fttrthesL Hoisington: Oh, you're m__lldng about alternative 2? Al Klingelhutz: Yes. Where the road is now is the least amount of wetland and t don't Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 believe that ff the road wasn't there, the~ would be much aifference in the wetlands~ That wetland was filled and the bridge was put through underneath the road at the time and it took away some of the wetland where the road is. You know but I would think, I sure hope that you come up with a final conclusion on it snd I believe allmmat~ 3 that you're recommending and the neighborhood seems to support it the most. There were 1 or 2 against it. I understand one fellow bought the house and one guy in one house just soon get out fight now. And that's...He's as old as I nm. Probably not in quite as good a shape but he'd like to get out so. I didn't like the one where the spread was about 300 feet inbetween. You'd have a row of houses between two roads. In the business I'm in, I know what a problem it is to even sell a lot between two major roads and the type of houses you'll get in there would not benefit the neighbors who live on Laim Susan. Thank you. Scott: Good, thank you. Would anybody else like to address the Planning Commission7 Let the record show that there is no one else~ Can I have a motion to close the public hearing7 Conrad moved, Mancino seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was dosed. Sco~ Ladd. Conrad: I said what I had to say. Scott: Okay. Any other comments? Can I have a motion please? Harberts: I'm not making a motion yet but I would be inclined to go along with staff in thc report in terms of alternative 3 as a preference~ I would just like to have a little dialogue with the other members as to what. I know where Jeff stands or desires in term~ of what was a close call. 2or3. Farrnakes: 2 represents slightly less damage, is the ext~t of the difference. If there's not a price difference, I don't. It's negligible the difference. Just figure the less is more. Scott: And they both have about similar impact relative to the trees and so forth. Mancino: I think one was 79 and one was 74. Scott: Yeah, 74 or something like that. Farwslre~s: What I don't want to see hatrpen is that we con~ up with an alternative that isn't going to work as a highway. Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Scott: That the highway's going to go from a scenic connection between Shakopee and Chanhassen and kind of it local traffic, to now where it's going W be draining toward 212 so. Especially heading south and going north so. I was kind of tossed between 2 and 3. I could suptxm the staff's recommendation- Conrad: I can too. Mancino: I can too and I would say for 3, the reason being is, or the pros that Fred put in his report being that it was good buffa'ing for the homes abutting Lake Susan and that there was wtal use of land between existing TH 101 and the proposed alternate 3. I think those were the strong points for me that were written in the reparL Scott: Okay. Are we ready for a motion? Mancino: I move that we approve Alternate 3 alignment of Highway 101. Scott: Is there a second? Harberts: I'll second that Scott: Okay, it's been moved and seconded that we adopt the staff recommendation- Is there any discussion? Mancino moved, Harberts seconded that the Planning Commission reconunend Alternate ~J for the official mapping of Highway 101 from Highway $ running south to Lyman Boulevard. All voted in favor and the motion carri~ unanimmmly. Harberts: Paul, are we looking at like a 3 or 4 year pedmps actual build time when f~nding can be found, at the earliest? Krauss: It's possibly less than that...As Fred mentioned earlier, what I'm be~nning to believe is going W happen, we may well need to build the temporary i ,mlm~v~ts to serve development in that area long befme anybody is ready to do it. The issue of MnDot funding is a very tough one...fallen another 2 or 3 hundred million dollars behind to committed projects. This is one that they haven't been cxmmtitted to since 1933 so. Harberts: How did that Governor Carison's State of the Address, I can never get it straight. When he somehow found $94 willion for highway. How does that impact 2127 10 Plapning Commission Meeting - February 16, 19o~t Krauss: We're not sure. That was funding that they were reinstituting for projects that they had previous funded but cut. But did that include 2127 Krauss: My guess is that it might but typically what happens is you've §ot to figure on outstate getting 60 cents on every dollar. Harberts: I was just wondering. I hadn't had a chance to check out the nnmhers. Krauss: Well $30 willlon doesn't buy a heck of a lot when it comes to wads. Ha_rbcrts: No it doesn't. Especially when it's...Why is it the...familiar with that key f~mdin§, that perhaps you're not ready to move ahead with this type of thing tlu~ugh the ctmm~ solicitation. Krauss: Well we're not sure which ca~§ory to put it first of all. I mean I see it as a wonderful program but...is also underf~nded. The feds approved it and they funded it at 80% of the level that they approved it at and people at MnDot arc given actually less transportation money throwing...than before. Plus there's more handout for it because communities like Chanhassen can get it for pedestrian bridges, to Southwest Metro and other things. It all used to go to straight highway construction. ~: Well I'm just thinldng with the, looking at the innermotal aspect of this is the trail, the park and ride. I would think that it would certainly be a top candidate. Krauss: Yeah but it nn¢ommately it is ~)m a local sumdpoint and certainly desirable. But it's not a major highway in thc regional system. Hadm'ts: Oh I see. So it's one of those minor arterials type of things? Krauss: Yes~ Hartm'ts: What about with President Clinton's funding proposal, what was it, ~ million in capital fnndin§. I think that came out in President Clinton's budget. Is that an opportunity that ISTEA might be funded at a higher percentage7 Krauss: Diane I don't know but I've heard over the years, I'll believe it when I sec it. Harberts: Okay, thanks. 11 Planning Commission Meeting - Februm~ 16, 1994 Scott: We have a second public hearing tonight and due to the situation of notices, vis a vis the adjoining property holders, we will have a public hearing but we will continue the public hearing until our next Planning Conm~sion meeting which will be on the 2nd of Marc~ Also item number 3, Lotus Realty Services, we will have a public hearing but that public hearing will be continued until our next meeting. So there will be no motions or there will be no action taken on items number 2 and 3 of the agenda until the next meeting. PUBLIC HEARING: CH~gS__.N KINGDOM HALL FOR A SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 3JJO0 SQUARE FOOT CHURCH TO BE CONSTRI~I~I'ION ON AN 87~1.]3 SQU~ FOOT PARCEL LO~ATED ON LOT 1, BLOCK 1, CHANHASSEN BUSINESS CENTER~ LOCATED SOUTH OF ~ CHICAGO~ MILWAUKRE~ ST. PAUL AND PA(~IC RAH~ROAD AND WEgF OF AUDUBON RQAD. Kate Aanenson presenmi the staff report on this item. Harberts: Has Public Safety had a chance to look at this with regards to the circulation of cars in the parking area? Asnenson: Ye~ Harberts: And they're okay with they felt that was fine. Har~: What about with regards to public safety. Aanenson: Turning radius of emergency vehicles? Aanenson: Yeah. Harberts: That works? Aanenson: Yep. Harberts: Okay. Was that in the report or it just wasn't... 12 Pl~ning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Aanenson: There wasn't a specific letter from the Fire Marshal but we did look at that. Scott: Any other comments, questions for staff? Mancino: I think I'll wait for their presentation. Scott: Okay, goocC I just have one question, as I recall going through the conditions. There isn't a condition for approval that has to do with thc consuuction of thc berm or surety for that, which we want to add when we do the motion on the 2nd of March. We'd like to hear from the applicant or their representative. If you could please, if you'd like to pl~-~sent, please step forward and identify yourself. Steve Kern: Good evening. My name is Steve Kern at 6540 I)evonshire Drive, Chanhassen. I'm here mostly to answer questions. I think your staff did a fine job of presenting thc whole project pretty well Thc main thing that's been taking place is that if we hear mare input with the approved project, we go along with and add to in a revised drawing. Those two phowgraphs that we showed you are from the Cologne congregation right on the Highway 212 and the purpose of sharing those with you, if you did get those in your marl, was that they help address the...and that top photograph shows a similar view to what we would see on the elevation drawings only about 3 times the dis~nce or 130 feet... And also the other view that we've done, is very similar when you go to the south coming over the bridge. If you look over that nonheasc..where we're proposing to break it up with large trees and break that roofline a little biL The shrubbery as an...all the way around the bnilding...and we're interested in making a real nice site that's going to be very eye appealing to the community. The building itself is identical w these phoWgraphs with a few changes are down inside... Harberts: How high is thc drive thru canopy? How high is that? Maybe the real question is, is it high enough to get a public transit vehicle through there? People that require...service. Steve Kern: Yes. Harbcns: Do we have dimeusious on that? Steve Kern: ...construction drawin8 looking at the top and it actually gives the...Last year we built 200 of these around the world. Those issues arc always add~ssed and being that you've got the handicapped ramp that's presented in thc final drawing that you have right there... We're recogpi~ing small buses and other kinds of bus~ might drop people off for a large event. Thc ramp is there and the height req~C.. Harberts: I think it needs to be somewhere around 8 to 10 feet. 13 Planning Commi~ion Meeting - February 16, 1994 Steve Kern: I'm pretty sure it's taller than that. Conrad: Kate, what's the impervious surface ratio of that'/ Aanenson: 70%. Conrad: It is 70? What if the church grows? Do you ~ on or what happens? Steve Kern: Well, we don't add on....always stay the same. Right now we have an average of 90 people...and my guess is around 150-170 and then they change our mrdWry for maybe some might be asked to go to Shakopee. Some might be asked to go to Cologne if they're not growing very fast. You also have a hall in the Navarre area. Edina...and if 20 years from now they were all full or they didn't whh to particle, we have in the past doubled our meetings so we have a Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday. Tuesday's a large meeting where the hall is 90 or 100 and Sundays is 90 to 100. The Tuesday meeting is one...so what we would do is start a second congregation in Chanlumen and then they would use Wednesday night and Friday night. Conrad: Do you ever have times when you have a lot more people on sim? St~-ve Kera: It would be weddings, which in this particular group they're either very old or very young. I don't see anything coming up. On the average once every 5 years we see a wedding take place. The final drawings we show chair seating, we would put up about 155 chairs to be comf~le. Very extended browsing room in the back but the plan from New York show that you can get 208 chairs in there which the par_Icing was relied on...w come up with 73. So we could expand in a wedding situation-.. Conrad: Kate, do we allow parking on Audubon? Aanenson: No. Conrad: So where do they go when they have those pm'ficulsr events7 Because you're kind of isolated right now. St~'ve Kern: I think that, like right now we're only seeing 30 cars. 35 cars that come with those 90 people and families. And so in a weddin2 per se, would probably bring us into that 73 range. I don't know if temporary pennits are possible. What we sometime~ have done is...a community center or school and get permi~ to use their pafldng and bus people back and forth. 14 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Aanenson: There might be mother user inside the industrial park they can shuttle them back and forth. Scott: Have you got any other questions for the app~t? Farmakes: I don't see any landscaping in fxont of the sign area. I don't see any on the plan, although there's not a detailed. Steve Kern: Yeah being that the signage was drafted here just today I gnets. The plans that you have we have shrubbery around the building. Nothing...but we certainly could add that in thc proposal. We want landscaping. Farmakes: I think that would integrate it better to the building situation if you look at limt. I don't have any further comments on the s~ Mancino: I have a couple comments and questions on the landscaping. In the staff report there seems to be a mixtu~ of Kentucky Coffee, maples, Ginkgo along Audubon. Where are they? I can't. Aanenson: They don't show up on this plam..If you go out and visit the site, they're around there. That was part of the improvement project we did. An the city's right-of-way. What we would want to...They have submitted another landscape plan... Mancino: Okay. Well one of my suggestions would be that if we have boulevard landscaping on Audubon, and let's say the trees are planted every 20 feet apart, etc that when we go in and put thc berm, the 4 foot berm and it is a continuous berm? Aanmson: Well we'd like to see if that.. Mancino: That we use some plant massings instead of doing one every 16 feet or something like that I think that your choice of the lindens, the little leaf one is great They get a nice...tall and have a good span but I would like to see some massing. And maybe some other coniferous flees that will give screening all year. That would be my suggestion to add to that because the main reason for putting that ~1~_ ing, ~ing to Our ordJ/l~lce, is to... parking lots and cars so we would like to do it also you know in a long winter light too. So I'd like to add that w... Scott: Kate, just one question. With the drainage of the NURP pond that either it is built or has yet to be built. Is there going to be repot for the rip rap? Kind of overland drainage or is that just always going to drain over land into the swale by the trae~? 15 Plaoniug Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Hempel: Once we review the final parking lot grading plan from the applicant he~, we'll determine whether or not the velocity of runoff is enough to require rip rap. We may be able to roAiutain a...area for the runoff to go through. Kind of sheet drsin it through the parking lot similar to what we've done in the Industrial Control out on Park Drive. Their parking lot sheet drains... Scott: Drains to the creek, yeah. Hempel: ...so we'll be looking at that in detaiL_We recommended to the app~t that they...to roinimiTe runoff in one direction... Scott: Okay. Any other questions or cormnents? Okay. Seeing none, this item will be continued to the next Planning Commission meeting. Thank you vex~r much for corning in. PUBLIC F~.ARIN~; LOTI, I$ RF. ALTY SERVICES FOR A ~HTE PLAN REVIEW OF A ~0 SOUARE FOOT OFFICE IHi'.TAH. BI, ImI.~G (I~:I)~A _RF. ALTY) AND A 2~533 SQUARE FOOT FAST FOOD RESTAURANT (WENDY'S) TO BE LOCATED ON LOT 4 AND OUTLOT A~ MARKET SQUARE. Sharrnin Al-Jaff presented the staff report on this item. Scott: We'll probably do questions and answers of staff and then have the applicant make their presentation. Do that. Farmakes: The contractual agreermmt the city has on a PUD, what is the time line in effect? Does it go on ad infinitum? Krauss: To the best of my knowledge...d~tm~nination basically what you did back in '89 was dropped the underlying zoning of the ~ and substituted the PUD...I know there is some language that was implemented in the Lake Susan Hill~. Mancino: So many years. Krauss: Yeah. That was an uncommon stipulation and I don't believe th~ put it hc~. Farmakes: How do we apply, what if anything, has been changed in the intrrim of time to consideration of this development7 What was appropriate? 16 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Krauss: Well, this goes into one of those grayer areas whe~ you know, I mean this is a PUD. I can remember sitting in this chair 5 years ago arguing in front of the City Council and the developer that a PUD was a contract and established obligations of both the city and the develops, which the developer objected to strenuously. This was one of the first that established some criteria in that regard. Relative to new criteria that's been developed ~inec then, there's certainly been a lot, from the strict standpoint of the PUD itself, you probably don't have a lot of leverage. From the aspect of any lIRA financial supports they may be receiving...leverage in that area. Farmakes: Is the Highway 5 Task Force recommendations, how do those interplay with this PUD? Krauss: The Highway 5, I guess we haven't reviewed it in detaiL.Highway 5 d/strict would establish the downtown...to the best of my knowledge con,stent with the general p~rameters of that But in essence we have a PUD in place that supercedes it, it's, I don't, the term Fannakes: And that includes four outlots that haven't been built upon yet? Krauss: Yes. Mancino: My question on that is when is an outlot, what's the reasoning for making it an outlot at the time of the PUD versus a lot? A1-Jaff: We speculated that possibly taxes but we really didn't find anything. Mancino: I mean a lot of times we make things an outlot that we're not going to build on_ Krauss: Well a lot of tinw~ you rnak~ things an ouflot that will be platted at a future time. All the future phases for example in Hans Hagen's development are platted as outlots and when they're ready to plat homes on them, they come in and review the outlet smms and do final plat. Harberts: There's a tax advantage to outlets versus...? Krauss: I don't know if there is or isn't but you can bet if there was, that develop~ would find one. Mancino: And I mean who owns right now the land he~7 I mean who owns Outlot A and Lot 47 Who has ownea'ship7 17 Planning Commiea~ion Meeting - February 16, 1994 Krauss: At the present ~ you know it's my understanding that the city owns it and we have a purchase agreement in place, a standing agreement that we will sell it back to the developer for a given price...and that purchase ~t has exismt for a number of years. Mancino: Now we own it, the city owns it. And we have a purchase agreement with another party. What if we don't want to sell it? Krauss: What the City Manager's told me is that the city has the poten~ of exewising an option to keep it. There are additional funds that need to be paid in that ~ and it was his impression...the ag~ement that obligates us to buy all fou~ lots uniformally throughout this site, the office site and the two unbuilt lots closest to the Subway restaurant. We would then own all of those. Mancino: We would own them and could we at a htcr date then sell them to another party7 Krauss: I honestly don't know and there may be some burden placed upon the city if we foreclose upon development. There may be some limitations...I don't know. If you'd like... Mancino: I'd like to know our options as a city, what we can and can't do. Harberts: Is there potential for funding from the HRA involved with this project7 Krauss: Yes. I do know that we do not have the ability to elect to just buy for example Wendy's. Mancino: Part of it. Farmakes: What's thc zone. Has the zoning changed in regards to office retail since '897 Krauss: Well, some of thc PUD conditions have. Farmakes: Is the PUD in regards to the office retail differentiate7 That was before my time here. Are we looking again at a similar situation as down the street here where it's listed as an office building but primarily the lower level, in this case, it's a one story building, is essentially retail. Is that a fielder's choice situation here with this particular development? Or I understand one is a major tenant, is a realty company. Krauss: That's true but I think you're fight. Your characterization as some kind of an 18 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 inbetween type of animal is probably acouate. As I recall, parking will allow ~ane retail use in that bnilding. It probably is going... Farmakes: So we potentially could be looking at ~ signage adjacent to 78th, facing the city? Krauss: No. What you're going to get there. The signage is regulated by the overall PUD agreement. That sign alloc~on was ~lished 5 years ago _n_nd_ they can't deviate from that. Now I don't, and maybe Sharmin can expand on what...~t. Al-la/f: It would allow two signs on two of the... Farmakes: So I assume north and south. Farmakes: So there would be individual tenant signage facing the city and the park. Al-la/f: The more I read the covenants, the more I was picturing the Medical Arts buidling. Harbens: That would be an example. Al-la/f: Yes. The covenant~..or the existing signage on the Market Square. Nm'makes: And the use would be subject to change as the tenants wo_nld change, between Al-Jaff: But then if they change, they would have to meet all the parking criteria and if they can't meet that, then we won't allow the occupancy to take place. buss: But that wouldn't precluse retail use. It would preclude say a restaurant going up Farmakea: The monument signage that we're looking at, are you ~x)mmending that it be the same height as the existing monument signage currently in Market Square? Al-laff: As well as design. Farmakes: Is in '89 the agreanent, that agreement was included in '89 in the PUD? 19 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Farmakes: On the height resffictiom How tall are those signs ctn'rently? Al-la/f: I believe they are 8 feet high. Fannakes: 8 feet. I saw in the agreement that it was higher than that on the ~ Maybe not. Mancino: We don't have any signage... Scott: No, but we have pictuz~ there. Fnrmakes: 14 feet? Al-Jaff: Well that's what it says in the. Farmnire-~: PUD agreement. Fammkes: Which would be substantially higher than any other monument signage that we have. Al-Jaff: Correct There is one monument aignage that is at that height. However, it faces. Farmni~ea: The highway. Scott: Are you talking about Center Drug? Al-Jaff: Pardon? Scott: Are you talking about the teaant in the corner of. Famutk~: Lawn and Sports? Pla~niug Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 AI-Jaff: Yes. Lawn and Sports. There's a 14 foot high monument sign. FarrpAIms: That's a pan of the building though isn't it? A1-Jaff: Yes and no really. Farmakes: That's the overhang corning off that's attached to the sU'ucture of the building. Al-SafE Yes. And I think that's what _this clause was for. But none of the other signs reach Farmakes: So the chuse envisioned it being attached to the boildlng? The structure itself7 So sort of a connected skyway to the pylon sign. A1-Jaff: That's how I in~ it Because otherwise there's really no need to have the clause in there. That would be the only structure that would meet this criteda. 14 foot high~ But in speaking of thc applicants, they indicated that the signs that they are proposing will be...signage that it is out there. The monnment sign that is out there. And that's why we requested that they submit a plan that can be approved by P]snning Commission and City Council and we make sure that they are identical to what's out there. Scott: And we'll see that on the 2nd? Al-$aff: Yes. Mandno: I think when we get these developments, to see the signage at the same time that we look at the site plan would be very advantageous so we can look at thc mA__tea4slS. Wc can look at everything as a unit. I mean as a whole. See how it w~rks together. Harberts: And when you're talking about the matm'ials Nancy, you're also talking colors, things like that? Mancino: Right. The real thing. Farmakes: h would be advantageous to it to look rather than typically how we get a signage direction. We will see a schematic or an elevation drawing and we will see an example on one umant. Truly how you see each, potentially each minimum tenant has a sign so the accumulation of that should be pan of that, even if it's fictional. It should show what the maximum extent of that package would be. 21 Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Harbens: This is a pretty focal point for the community so I have to agree with those A1-Jaff: It would be an anchor building for that ccuner...Mark~t and West 78th. That's going to be a prime area in Chanhassen. Scott: Any other co~ts or questions? Okay. This is a public hearing so if anyone would like to address the Planning Commissio~ please st~'p up. Identify yourselves and we'll be interested in your thoughts. (The following discussion did not get picked up very well on tape as people were not spes_idng loud enough or directly into the microphones.) Vernelle Clayton: Since I recognize the rest of the people as being part of our group... Vernelle Claywn. I'm representing Lotus Realty here tonight. Rather than a free willy montage of facts and figures that you usually get from Brad, he had to be out of town tonight, I'll present the project. However less colodully but hopefully I'll be able to give you some background. Explain to you all, try to get a little bit_and how it got there. And I'm saying that because I understand, although I wasn't there, that that very question was, has been posed to Council and staff by the Council. By legal counsel and staff. By the Chanhas~n Council because there is some confusion I think and lack of underslauding on how we did get to where we are with the project Partly because the project wok so incredibly long to get off the ground. Phase I did. The plan and the Planning Commission stage I'm sure, although I wasn't involved at that point, took place long before probably everybody except Ladd was on the Planning Commission and I guess if you're not on the commission or...HRA, you probably weren't involved...of what went on. I would ~ to say also that I don't want to spend all evening with you reviewing what...thank heavens it's over and...hreathc a sigh of relief but one of the things that occurred was that there was a change in the attitude of lcuders and financing. And in fact we experi~ a change in a lender. One of the other things that. happened, thankfidly, thc city was extremely cooperative and helpful in f~ttiug that gap because they rccogniz~ the need for a shopping center and particularly a grocery store and it was a high priority itrm at that time. So in a nutshell, to summarize what happened in several months and many meetings here, the city, as a way of infusing the necessary additional equity that the more stringent lending requi_relxlents...are dictated, purchased this particular piece of land which is now comprised of two sepers_~ parcels from the Bloomberg Companies. But unlike other purchases that the city, that the HRA. It was at the HRA... but thi~ was the HRA that did it. Not the city itself. The HRA in other cases had purchased land outright and just plain owns it and uses it for development For example there's...that the HRA owns that and can sell it or do whatever they want. They could I suppose if they chose build something on it and manage it and operat~ it. This is Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 19o~t different. This was purchased. They agrced to purchase the lot and in tatum for Bloomberg agreeing to repurchase it. So there was at the time the purchase agreement was signed, an option that was also an option to repurchase by Bloomberg...simultaneously. ~ attached to that document is the purchase agreement that spelled out the tc~ms under which Bloomberg will close on thc land. So that explains where we got, how you got to where you are. How some people say gee, thc HRA owns this land. Why is development being proposed on our land perhaps? ! don't know what all thc decision might be but it was always planned that this project would be developed as a part of biackct Sq~___src and that BI~ would exewise their option when a purchase agreement came, when a purchaser came along for them such as Wendy's. And that's what's occurring now. There is a different agreement on Lot 2 and 3 where tmlike Bloombergs having an option to purchase, they didn't...2 and 3 but I didn't want other mistmderst_~ndings going on here. That agree~tent is with Market Square Associates t.irnited Partnership which is the owner of Lot 1, which is Market Square~ Under that agreement there is no option. There is a requirement that they, the parmership purc~ it. So they're not connected and they're separate agreements with separate entities. Now because Paul remembers it one way and I went..~not having a million other transactions flow across my deak. I can certainly understand how people coming on the Planning Commission who may not have had a, may not have even lived here for all I know at the time ~ was going on, would not have a clear unders_mntling of what those documents say. They al~ in addition to that, a little more con, lex. There is a possibility that the city could t~nrl a third party offer and in that case Bloomberg has the fight to meet that offer. Practically speaking Wendy's wanted to be there and is offering a whole lot more than the city's contract with them says, there is no apparent reason to me why if they came up with a third par~ offer that Bloomberg wouldn't say yeah, I'll match it. Fannakes: Can I ask you a quick question? Vemelle Clayton: Sure. Fro'make: Wendy's has a contract with the city? Vernelle Clayton: Wendy's has a contract with, actually Lotus Realty who is coordinating all of this. Bloornber§ is the one that has the option that can be exercised but in order to transfer all of the...deeper, we determined it would be wise to present one si~ plan for thi~ because two small site plans could lend to not a very good flow of the site. Not coordina~ landscaping. Not coordinated cons~on and we wanted it all coordin~__t_~ So to coordinate it we, Lotus has a purchase agreement with Bloomberg. Bloomberg will exercise their option and then Lotus plans to transfer title to Wendy's as well as to a pai~nership which will be comprised of largely the same parmers that own Market Square I. 23 Plunning Commisdon Meeting - February 16, 1994 Harberts: Vemelle, you commented that when Marlmt Square was being developed or proposed or whatever, that this was always the intent. T~is project with the intent of going forward but because of finandal difficulties or what.er, that's why it's so slow. When you co~ted that _this was going to, this was the inmnt, did that inmnt mean a fast food restaurant and this type of other ~,ilding that's being pmlx)sed or just that some_ type of development would occur? Vemelle Clayton: I said that there were financial problems. It was the whole world you know fell apart for financing any kind of real estate and we had not iniended at that point to be developing these parcels along with Market Square. So they weren't, it's not true to say that these parcels weren't developed then ~ of lack of financing. It was kind of an exlr~ effort on Brad's pan that he was able to fill 80,000 square feet at the time it opened. Any more than that is typically planned when you do, most shopping centers of this size, and parfi~ those that are larger, have a major center and 2 or 3 other lots which...to Nancy and that we apparently call them all outlets and we refer to all of these lot~ whether they're legally Lots 2, 3 or whatever we call them outlets. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's noc..I may have misunderstood your quesfiom But in any event, to answer your question, ye& We thought there was a great ~ood that there would be a fast food restaurant here. We also thought always that there'd be some ~ind of additional retail We didn't think there would be whatever might be proposed on Lots 2 and 3 because at that time, at the time that the whole process was approved, the Council and the Plamling Commission aJao approved a vetrinary building and a drive thru for that site. So you'H see those on old plans when you see old plans... Farmakes: Wasn't there also another proposal of a bank building? Vernelle Clayton: I'm sorry. Farmakes: Wasn't there also another proposal of the Americana Bank building? Krauss: Several years later. Vemelle Clayton: Right. That was several years later. They proposed and that's how this little snaffu with the outlot came about. They originally this whole area was called Outlot A. Everything we're talking about wnight was called Ouflot A. And they went at the time the Americana Bank wanted to be here, they only wanted half the site so they went through most of the approval process for platting that. The bfmutes say it was going to be divided into two lots. Somewhere along the line somebody instructed a surveyor to label it Ouflot A. And that's the best that we can, Sharmin and I have gone through...and can't quite figure out what happened but it was apparently the intent from the dialogue that's recorded that they be two Plav.i.g Commission Meeting - Nebruary 16, 1994 lots. It simply was split into two lots. Hafoerts: He didn't mention how Southwest Metro had control over the old... Vemelle Clayton: Diane and I got to know each other by phone before we met. Harberts: I think I was on board for 2 days. Intemsling project... Vernelle Clayton: So anyhow, that kind of gets to how we got part of the way to where we are. As to why the HRA...fact that thc Bloomberg Companies has a legal interest in the proper~ and...exercising it's option. Under our proposal for Wendy's as I said will be owning a parcel and a pannership, pretty much the same parmersh~ as the one for Market Square will own the Lot 4 and as I sakl...~ to the proposed development...one of the ways to control property is to have or influence developmeat on property is to have a PUD. This is not a bad PUD fi'om your pcrspcctivc...~ wc have always gotten into thc fact that we as a developer and those folks that drafted thc PUD agreermmt as well as other agreements anticipated that there would be additional retail development on that site. And let tnt say there's a need for additional retail There's a need for traffic...for Market Square. I don't mcan to imply that there arc a lot of people that are close to going out of business. That things are so tough down there but there arc a lot of people that go to bed worried every night I can tell you that. These people are all ahead of the time just a little bit. Everybody that's moving into Chanhassen is ahead of time. They're positioning themselves because they want to be here when we arc fully developed and when the market catches up with what we're doing here. There are probably a couple people in Market Square that can't wait that long but it needs the synergy of newer folks out there that generate Raffle. We've spent a lot of money out there generating uaffic...that we have just to get people on site and Wendy's will do a lot of that for us. We don't care particul~ly...that they all go to Wendy's and immediately hop over and...or drop in at thc hardware store but we care that they see it and they see what's there and they can come back and support it. So, there's a development agreement. There's a PUD. A development agreement. A redevelopment agreement. There's a repurchase agreement and even restrictive covenants that restrict thc height of buildings...All of those have a lot of little things that limit what we can do and provide you conu'ol for what we can do. It was dra_eaxl that way so that thi, project would be consistent with what already existed in Market Square and we think that thc project that we're bringing in is consistent with those anticipations. As we go through thc presentation there may be references to those. I think that Sharmin has already made some reference to various rcquirerrgnts that set forth for example signagc, perking, access...As to thc usc of thc properS, as I mentioned, it was rczoncd PUD and thc PUD agrccmeat contains standard language that the standards of the BO, general business district apply to this as if thcy...Uses arc of course retail as we mentioned but we have proposed office and among... Oct~g at Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 uses a little more, we screen uses pwbably as stringently as anyone there because of, although it might be from a different perspective. We're concerned with respect to the mix of tenants at Market Square. We have turned down several proposals from folks who want to be in the area and possibly in the b,_,ilrli,~§ becaume a similar use already exists in Mlu'ket Sq~nre. For example we've had...uses which under the ordinance would be permitted. I really don't think you'd like very much and we would not like very much either on the site. We, in deference to Guy's, although unbeknownst to him, we turned down Taco Bell on the 8nme site that Wendy's is now going on. Even though his lease has no provision to that affect I undersland that he sent you a letter saying a couple firings and I'm paraphrasing if you haven't seen the copy. One of the things he said...is not true and I trust you understand that now that you understand...ownership of the parcel becaune vested in the lIRA and then the~..I need to say also that it is our intent to continue to protect, to protect him and others based on what they were doing when they moved there~..~ he didn't ask them about changing his venue...that became that grill after we were already... Farmakes: Excuse me. When you're referring to he, you're referring to Guy's? Vernelle Claywn: I'm re~g to Guy's. And I don't like any of those mumts over there to be unhappy with what we're doing. I work with them on practically a daily bash. I lalked with Cmy about this and he just sort of shrugged his shoulders. Al~lrently he didn't think I was in any position of authority to do anything about it so he wasn't going to corn?lain to me~..~th respect to this particular proje~ Wendy's began discussions with us last March and one of the specific elements that was irr~, omlnt to them was a site plan so we met with staff and reviewed various alternatives and...which was recommended by the staff. In the next few months...and then we prepared some more formal renderings of the site plan and elevations and presented them to the liRA and the cornm~nm with having preliminary discussion with thew-..pdor to bringing it to Planning Commission and Council and that was in ~ Sept. SOP~ 2.3rd I believe. We then were...and so the site plan and specifically the landscaping plan was used..~ Norby prepared the landscaping plan...as well as through the Tree Board. At the same lime thi.~ was going on, we were ~g elevations and in the case of Wendy's making...elevation~ based on projections by the HR~ We presenlnd the...roughly in December. Anticipal~ Planning Commission public hearing in 1anuary. We all know that the schedules were changed due to the acconvnodation linked to the Highway/5 study. We thought...pedect presemafion and before I introduce the folks that are going to come up and make the presentation, because it is less than pedect, it's because we were trying...but in any event, I think what we have, it might not be perfect or as perfect and colorful in quality and visible. Jess than 24 hours really w get the new site plan attached to your packet together. He has not spent, that was at 3:45... Since then he's had a chance to fine tune it a little bit and you'll see a fine tuned version here which incorporates a few things...by Friday afternoon~ Then on Monday we learned that...'I~ other thing that Bill had 26 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 to do was...Sharmin decided that she wouldn't, suggested we add some relief to the front in the fo~m of bringing forward the gabled portion a foot and that meant that Bill had to go b~w~k to the drawing board,..Monday morning on the elevations. Now all this time Bill had planned to be doing a really nice computer presentation of...the building and so we're without those tonight but thankfully we do have the most recent response to the most recent suggestions and this also left Kevin in a little bit of a lurch since he had oniy I think today to do the revised landscaping... It's my thought that, since you've ~y seen the site plan, we might then look at the landscape plan next since you kind of have those around in front of you and then we'll talk about the buildings. And so, unless you want to see it in a different order. Scorn Go aheacL Vernelle Clayton: I would liire to introduce Kevin N~rby who I think all of you have met in the past and he will mak~...Thank you~ Kevin Norby: Again, I apologize for not getting a copy of this to you but I do have copies I can distribute to you. Scott: If you want, if you can stick that in front of the podium. For the folks at home. Kevin Norby: I guess what we've done hem, I thought maybe Bill would be going first and have an opportunity to explain what changes were made on the site. Staff suggested that this area, which was previously shown and I think is on your copy, shown as 6 foot wide and suggest~ that that be widened to 8 feet to accorr~a_~, the planting of additional green space. We've nctually widened that to 10 feet feeling thnt we probably needed that extra 2 feet to insure that those trees would continue to thrive, Harberts: Kevin, can you just kind of give us a point of re~erence whero West 78th Street is? It's kind of hard. Kevin Norby: Yeah, this is West 78th and north. This would be Market here and of course Festival would be down in here. So this is I guess one of the changes that Sharmin had suggestrd of this beinE widened to 8 feet. We've widened that to 10 feet and incorporated some trees in there. Sharmin had actually asked to have 5 trees planuxi in this median and I was somewhat concerned about salt tolerance and the amount of traffic that runs through here splashing up on the u~es so what we've done is p~ovided 3 frees. We've changed the species a little bit to provide some additional salt tolerance. We've landscaped that area with lower growing, ground cover type material that will take the snow loads and the salt tolenmce. Mancino: What is that? Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Kevin Norby: In this case we've used fleece flower, the ground cover. The trees are hacklxm'y and a.~h and off to the ends we've got maple and linden where we think there's a little more space to accommodate those. We've also got this sidewalk that continues around the site. Part of it exists. That will be extended across West 78th here ~nd the city currently has as part of their West 78th Street project 5 trees which are proposed there~ We have a total of 32 trees shown on the site, 15 of which are required. 15 trees are required as part of your landscupe ordinance. Your parking lot ordinance. Mancino: That's the minimum. Kevin Norby: The minimllm. We've got 17 shown in the _parking lot. We've got another 10 down there provided as far as buffering, screening. Quite a bit ~ that in ail atlm~t m hide things like the trash eilclosures, softt~ the bn_ilding ar~hi~ lind so fo~l. Again the trash enclosure is local~ here. Bill will explain why that is there. It was the request from staff to consolidate the two enclosures ancC..will be accessed from both tenants buildings. I guess in general I'll let Bill cover that sort of stuff but in general what we've done is tried to soften the ar~hi~. Tried to provide 8omc green s~ace. There will be 8ome bea~ming ~ that sort of thing to help break up some of these views along here along West ?Sth and Market. And then we've used again extensively ground covers and shrubs for both buffering and for landscaping around the building& Mancino: I have a question for you. If I'm over at Country Suites and I want to walk across the street and go to Wendy's, and I get on the sidewalk on Market, how do I get to Wendy's in a pedestrian friendly way that I don't go around cars? Is there a pathway? Kevin Norby: The hol~l over here7 Mancino: Yeah. Kevin Norby: You either wolk the sidewalk which will mk~ you to Wendy's...allow annusls around thc buildings. Around the signs we've got more perennials. It will be both colorful and it will provide a lot of canopy cover. Mancino: Is there the use of brick pavers for sidewalk or are we all cement or have we upgraded up to some sort of a brick walkway around the buildings? Kevin Norby: I haven't been involved in those discussions and I'm not sure it's reached that, quite that level of detail here but at this point what we're representing is concrete. Maybe I'll let Bill kind of touch on some of the other changes here. 28 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Vemelle Clayton: ...so do you want to expl~ more about the site plan? Bill Brisley: Most of the changes were driven by planning slaif which you see there. I'm sure there's a lot of rationale that they have that I'm not privy to that_but I certainly would answer any questions on the site plan. Harbens: Well one of the questions I have is with regard to the trash. And maybe it's just my not unders~clin§ the total use of the oth~ bnildin§s but it would seem to me there's more traffic generated potentially by Wendy's so why wonldn't the trash be localnd in the other parking lot where I would _think thg~ would be less Iraffic to deal with. But then maybe I'm just. Bill Brisley: Well here's where Wendy's collects their trash in this area and then directly out that door. And then a hauler would come in here...pick up this dumpster. Harbcrts: Oh because they generate more trash? Vernelle Clayton: Right. They generate more and plus we have several experiences in Market Square where anytime you have large dtunp~, which you want, because you don't want...The hauler has to head in directly back Harberts: They have to back up. Vcrnelle Clayton: Right. And up here they'd have trouble... Harberts: So i~l me how a trash hauler would go in there and do a 3 point turn? Bill Brisley: This is all one way. Harberts: So tell me how. lohn Milga: We arrange the lime for lxash pick up so it just doesn't coum in the middle of the day or when it's busy and quite easily what happens is the trash backs in this way, pulls up here and... Mancino: Are you ~en 24 hours a day? John Milga: No we're not. And we wouldn't anticipa~ toting to be open 24 hours a day. Harberts: Can you describe that location where they collect ~he trash. Is that like an 29 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 enclosed room or so~g? John Milga: Well first of all we comp. act our mish before, we take it out to the dumpster. Harberts: And that's done in that little room. John Milga: Pardon me? Harberts: That's done in that little room that you poinmd out? John Milga: This one here? This is a cooler and freezer and that's all enclosed. And then when they would bring out the trash, they would bring it out here. Harberts: And is that somehow screened? That Uash...or whatever it's called back there? John Milga: Yes. There's very heavy screening all around the trash, except for this little sidewalk here where the ofF, ce people can bring trash in. Al-la:fi: We're also requesting that there would be berming to create an i .mpression...fi-om Market Boulevard as well as... Bill Brisley: What happens is this site steps down...and so where we ~ic~_. up some of the clumge~... Harbens: That answers my questions. Vemelle Clayton: I'd ~ to bring, before we get off the site plan I'd lilm to bring up one of the...Council and you should know about it too. These don't exist down hem. They live currently up in here and if you haven't noticed them, please drive out and talin a look at them. They're inconsistent with any kind of bnilding design...so we're proposing that they be moved. And one of the reasons we're proposing that they be moved, the screen is obviously...and the other is that there's a requirement that there be nothing planted within 10 feet and they're closer than 10 feet to the sidewall You can't shield them/rom the sidewall So we need to address, I don't think you'll find any arguments/rom anybody that they're ugly but we might find an argument that.so we're going to have to work on that So I just wanted to explain that and this will be able to provide screening... Farmakes: What was your motivation in changing tho roof line7 What was it originally7 You discussed some of the changes you made to the main ~ here. Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Vernelle Clayton: To this one? Farmakes: Yeah. Vernelle CLayton: Bill, well we were going to have Wendy's go on next but if you want, why don't you talk about it. Fannnkes: That's fine if you want to come back to that. Bill Brisley: Yeah, I guess I'm... Vemelle Clayton: Okay. I think it would be nice if we did allow John Milga to talk a little bit about Wendy's and he and... John Milga: Well first of all Wendy's is kind of an upscale hamburger chain and most of our customers fit the profile of Chanhassen's population base, Where it's a little more upscale. A little more office related. People are a little more in~ in salad bars. They're good for your product and we kind of emphasize that. Emphasize the adult seating with the movable chairs and tables. One of the things we have to consider is in trying to develop here, what they have a plan that our bnilding would match with the Macket Square building as well as with the Edina Realty building. So one of the congdemtions was to try and get a donner type roof on top of the building and also to match the brick. Now this artist has shaded it in kind of a beige but we're going to rrm_rah the same color as Market Square building which is kind of a grayish color. And at the time we'll use the same materials so we'll have the same brick materials as Edina as along with mall;hing the colors of the Market Square building. Now our logo colors are red and you can use this a little bit because we had the rendering done before we had to make some other changes that Vernelle eluded to but you can see the donner treaurwats here,..~, you know all the colors a little better than I do. Gary: Well we're effectively going to cor~.liment the colors of the shopping center. This dormer treatment...and add some red striping to compliment to the canopies used in the shopping center, which is a burgundy. And brick treatn~nt, as I mentioned being kind of a grayish...This is what you calL.. Hatberts: Is this a, and I don't know if I'm...is this like a franchise store or is this like a corporate store? John Milga: This would be a corporate operated store. However that doesn't rne~ that it would always be a corporate store. We do have flexibility that we can sell stores to 31 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, I franchisees and buy franchise stores. Harberts: Do you have any Wendy's that do not have drive thru or do all your Wendy's all over the place have drive thrus? John Milga: The only place that we don't have drive thrus is if we're in a downtown area like in downtown Minneapolis. Or inside of a shopping center mall Other than that they all have drive thins. And the reason for that qui~ frankly is, about 30% of the _b~n~s comes through a drive thru. Today people do their banking through drive thrus. In fact women are thc primary users of drive thrus because when they drive home and they have little kids, they don't have to take the kids out of the car, or out of the van today. Bring them in somep~ Worry about them ~nning around lind so they ~ have them all contained where th~ can do Fannakes: Your elevation drawing is showing burgundy striping on the building and your sketch drawing is showing a matching red to the sign. What, do you have a sample of what that would be or do you, any exterior samples? Gary: ...on the site7 Farmakes: Yes. Gary: This is just a paint that's psint~! on- The top of the parat~ is treal~ with...What we have shown right now is green..~ and beige. Farmakes: So when you're refen'ing to red, I'm looidng and I'm seeing almost a burgundy red and in the drawing I'm seeing bright red. What is the color? Fammkes: The ~ I see in the Wendy's sign? Mancino: ...fire en~ne red, not burgundy? Gary: Right. No. Harberts: I thought I had heard the comment of your corpora~ logo colors would be. 32 Planning Commission Me,ting - F~bmar~ 16, 1994 Farmakes: I heard the awnings that are currently on the ~ Square development. Did I hear that wrong? Gary: Not a burgundy. It's kind of burgundy red. Sort of... Farmnkes: Well signage reds are colar coded. They're specific. The red that you're using in Wendy's I'd say is a 185 red. Gary: ...Yeah. Thc signagc in thc shopping center are red. Mancino: But I rne~ it's not going to be a subtle burgundy? Gary: No. Right. No, it's going to be red. ,~nd_ this... Mancino: Where else are their signage up on the mansard or whatever you call that part of the roof? I ~ you have a drive up area. Gary: Right. We have. Mancino: In your other Wendy's you have a fair amount of signage. John Milga: ...original picttucs of our "standard building" may give a better ~ You can see there we usually use a brick similar to the hdck that you have in civic center... Scott: And then all your rooftop, your HVAC and all that kind of stuff is going to be screened? Actually contained underneath so it won't be visible at all Gary: Right. Faxmakes: Will the stone and brick that you're using is accented by a rougher stone in the detail work? Gary: Ye~.. Farmakes: And this is the bronze metallic that you're referring to? Gary: Yes. Harbarts: And this site is supposed to have two drive thru windows? Is that righ~ 33 Planning Commi/~'on Meeting - February 16, 1994 John Milgic Yes, That's the smndmd...aud we are chan~ng our signage. We're not going to have Wendy's Oki Fashion Hambul~crs. Wendy's is Wendy's... Farmakes: Okay, so on some of these other buildings where you see chili and frosty, all this auxiliary signage that you're talking about is restrict~ then to your... Mancino: And is it lit, back lit? Gary: Yes. It's lit. Basically this is one of our, what do you want to call it... Vemellc Clayton: When you're talking about Wendy's signagc...but each building is allowed signagc on two sides... Mancino: And that includes the pick up window? Vemelle Clayton: Right. They might choose to have a sign on the side. Mancino: But that's then 3. John Milga: No, we'll have 2 signs and basically the way we go about our signage... Farmakes: I think you're talking about au auxiliary sign for the pick up window here or pick · up here. John Milga: ...directional sign for example, we'll probably have a sign on this side which-.. Fannak~: Sharmin, could I ask you sorrowing in regards to the fast food restamant that has a drive up and in many of these such as McDonalds and so on and essentially they're a monument sign onto themselves. How do we treat that issue in relationship to signage limitations in that PUD? ...we're talking about a limitation of 2 signs, bnileHng si~s on two sides. We're talking about auxiliary si~. Pick up window here. Typically in a fast food there's also a drive up collection. I'm assuming you have a drive up type situation where there's a menu and usn~lly colored pictures and so on. Mancino: Yeah...and also signage in the windows. 99 cents huge which is also signage. Al-Jaff: Currently the ordinance does not allow...I looked at the McDonalds and we did not include that as a part of their signage... Farmakes: I guess my question is, we do have a/tcfia then that regulates the signagc and the Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 placement for auxiliary signage that buildings like these require other than the fact that we do have restrictions when we're talking about the bnilding signs themsSve& For additional obviously signage, do we have criteria that we use for that? I don't recall that... Al-$aff: ...that band then wraps around the bnilrllng... Sco~ So you're saying ff the corporate color is utilized as an accent on the b~ilding, which I remember from thc...corporate accent colors count as signage. Al-laff: Correct. Farmakes: We talked about that fairly exlm~sively...how you ~ined th~ How either aesthetically or in ordinance you determined what effect it has... John Milga: For exan~le Super ~a likes to use a huge America flag to the point it becomes when you see that on the highway, you know it's a Super .aanefica. I don't know of anyone that counts that as a sign. Fannakes: Particnlsr fast food franc~, we could argue that at length but obviously Taco Bell, Amoco, I can list off where the striping is an intricate part of their franchise building. No question. A part of the signage. It's used to catch the eye. But I've seen it done tastef~y. I think Embers does a pretty good job of tasty doing it. I've seen it done pretty garishly. John Milga: Then on the other hand, you take for example McDonalds has the golden arch. Just because they ose the yellow color, you couldn't say well we have to use blue arches. You're causing the corporation then to...in some cases when you start getting into this, you start violating other trademarks and... Farmslres: I think the argument can be made though that red trim on a bnih4ing is not a corporate ID. It's not a trademark. The Wendy's logo and the fact that you're using and so on, that could be... John Milga: I'll give you an example of one that is a trademark...McDonalds..dights on the roof. Their roof design with...lights. That is a Uademark by McDonald,.. Farmakes: I think the McDonalds was built many, many years ago. I don't think that would fly any longer. Harberts: The question I have is with the stacking of cars as they go through the drive thnc.. 35 Planning Commission Meeting - Felxuary 16, 1994 Do you have a ~ procedure where they stack up... John Milga: Okay first of all there's a by-pass lune. to get around the drive thru so if someone was parked in say this parking space, if they want they could have two options...or they could back out and go around the drive thnc..$ome companies do not have that but we provide for a by-pass lane. Stacidng wise you know, the reason we have the double window is to move thc cars through faster. They can pay while they're waiting far the pick-up and then they move on to the pick-up window and...One takes the order and one takes the...so the goals it always to keep...and you could stack up all the way to here. That was one of the features your planners came up with and the way we had it set up before didn't really provide for an emergency that could happen. That wouldn't be an ideal from our perspective to havc a situation like that. But could that happen? Yes, that could happen so we provided for... Harberts: Have you done that type of design before where there could potentially be stacking up in that same place... Scott: Yeah, what's the distance there? John Milga: I mink it's 24 feet. Scott: Okay, and then cars are typically how long? Gary: They're typically 20 foot-..A Submban might be about 20 feet long. Scott: I'm just thinking if you've got 26 feet across that lot and you have two 15 foot cars that are supposed to be parked, and maybe you're not measuxing the distance mis way but I think if you have a car parked there and you have a car parked there, and your stacked 7 or 8 de~, those people are going pretty much going to be immobilized. I mean if you take the length of two cars and the width and you don't have that much space in that parish§ lot... Gary: ...26 feet but the cars are only say 7 feet wide. That's the width that a car would... car was standing here, you still have 19 feet for a park to back out... Mancino: I'm sure you said this before but I can't reme~. How does the brick get to be gray? Is that, do you hnpregnate the color of the hrick?... Harberts: Did Public Safety look at the tra~c flow? Al-Jaff: Well it was betwee~..Dave, and myseff. We looked at the flow of the uaffic and we have not studied this specific plan in detail but this wa~.. 36 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 CFhere was a tat~ change at this point in the discussion.) Farmakes: It's not restri~ to that? Bill Brisley: No it's not. F~: It could be Block Buster Video. Bill Brisley: Right. Hadxrm: Is there a, if the parking lot at Wendy's gets full, will people have the option of parking over in the other side then? John Milga: Well in fact this parcel, and Vemelle you can help us out on this if you want, there is parking on this side. This is parldng that belongs to this land. However we're not even counting that as pan of our required parking. But there was overflow parking ca~'ulated way back when, when it was thought of this as being retail then. Po~ibly a in service restaurant. Vemelle Clayton: We intend to have cross parking easements. There already are cross parking easements in place... Harberts: Would a pick up, no. Let's start over. Would a Suburban with a 16 or 18 foot boat be able to go through that? I mean realisti~y. John Milga~ But the question you raise is the same you have to ask in a bank. If someone were imprudent enough to come with a Suburb~ and a big boat, and that could happen in this area. Someone could be that in'qmutent to do that, do go into a bank, they're going to tear up everything on it just like the church. They did the same thing. If they pull in there. Harbem: So I tak~ it the answer is no. John Milga: No. Probably wouldn't. They probably could get through here because it's wide enough but. Gary: If there were no cars. John Milga: Because with 22 feet, it would work but you know... Harbem: Well we have Lotus Lake right there. We have a lot of Uaffic on 78th Street and I 37 Planning Commit'on Meeting - February 16, 1994 think it's very conceivable and unless this person is ~ enough to park their vehicle outside of that area, I'm just wondering what kind Of traffi~ tie up you could have ill there, inw the s~clring, things like that. Farmakes: Is the street lighting for Market II going to match Market John Milga: Yes, it is the same street lighting. Al-Jaff: We did discuss _this at a meeting with the applicant and we suggested that they use the same ornamental lighting that exists at Market Square right now, and we're hoping with their next submittal that that shows on there. Farmakes: And that will be part of any lighting situation within the lot also'/ Harberts: I'd like to just reinforce Nancy's comet earlier about seeing the colors and the malm'ials at the next meeting. Mancino: And signage and where any accessory signage will be. AI-Jaff: Do you want them to bring in examples? I mean actual pieces. Mancino: Yes. Conrad: Staff report took out sidewalks. I'm ctu'ious why we did that. Hempel: Actually the site plan showed taking out the sidewalk with the gr._ding of the site and did not propose putting it back and that was one of the recommendations staff has, to rnakr sure that sidew~ on Market Boulevard is put back in place. And in fact the West 78th Stat sidew~l~. Vemelle Clayton: If it said that, it was a mistake. It was never intrnded that .we take out the sidewalla.. Bill Brisley: We're not taking out any sidewsl~. They're adding, or the ci~ will be od_ding the sidewalks... Heng~el: Let me clarify for the record as far as the city is going to be extrnding the sidewalk along West 78th Street only. Nothing along Market Square or Markrt Boulevard. There's a 38 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 small se~t of thc sidewalk that was left out of the original Market Square development. We're waiting for the city to put the turn lane in and move the electrical boxes that were on the corner. We've moved them back for a second time now. The location is far enough back to fagilitate the extension of that aidewalk and development of the parcel Conrad: One thing that we hear on this Vision 2002 is, it's always interesting what peop~ focus on and we're trying to figure out what we look like in 10 years or 5, or something like that. We talked about pedestrian traffic and although if Brad were here he'd be telling us how the car moves us around, which is true. But on the other hand, the people that are looking at the city are real concerned with pedestrian tra/~. Staff, you did not want the connection, as originally in our plans, made to these sidew~ll~s on West 78th and Market Blvd based on the staff report saying e'~ them. Is that ~? A1-J'aff: No. AcO_mlly... Bill Brisley: The sidewalk comes here. Conrad: I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about thc connectivity between the Edina and the sidewalks that I perceive to be coming from the sides going out to thc, right there. Yeah. Now my understanding was staff said these pedestrian ramps should be elim/nated. Bill Brisley: Those were ones going across the street. Heng~l: Right. If I could clarify. There were previous on the landscape plan showing two pedestrian crosnings or access points out to West 78th Street and Market in this location and mother one out here to promote crosshg mid block and...We did reque~ that they give us some continuity between the sidewalk on Market and Edina Readty and Wendy's. Conrad: Okay. Then I undcrsmn& And we're going to look at connecting Wendy's to that same Market Blvd sidewalk, right? A1-Jaff: Yes. Conrad: I'm ~y intcrested in connecting everything together. This is a PUD you know and I think that's what everybody has to really refocus on. This is not just a subdivision or a site plan. It's ruffly fitting cvcrything togcthcr. I'm concerned with s/dewalks and accesses to get a, I think the parking lot at Market Square has been a bone of concern for a long time. I hope we're taking that oppammity. I'm not going to get into the business of being an engineer but I really hope we're taking the opportunity to make sure that this thing all fits Wgether, and I'm not smart enough to critique it fight now but I trust staff will do that. I 39 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 also trust staff will do that in terms of the sidewalks. Bven though this little group that's trying to figure out what we look like in 2002 has not come to conclusions yet, there's sure some solid indication of what they're looking for and that should be wrapped into thh. We shouldn't have to wait for th/s document to come farth. I think there's some clear directions on that and this impacts it a little bit. So again, I just really hope between now and then that staff has thought of those issues and making sure this all fits. lohn Malga: Any other questions in regards to Wendy's? Al-laff: I just wanted to add something in regards to the sidewalks. It's true as Commissioner Conrad states that one of thc main conccrns of thc 2002 Vision commission was to connect the sidewalks and we did look at ~i.~ site and what we had suggested was that the sidewalks. This is whcre Edina Re~ty ia The sidewalk would continue along West 78th but at the same time go along the interior and then go to the west until it reaches Subway. The s/dewalk that's fight in front of Subway and I think that would complete limt sidewalk connection- Mancino: But you still can't get to Wendy's on a sidewalk. I mean it's not pedestrian friendly. Mancino: You cannot get from a sidewalk to Wendy's without going through a parking lot and I'm thinking small kids. I'm thinking bikes and all sorts of things. So it doesn't meet those pede~rian friendly requirements. Scorn Well another comment too with the V'mion 2002 that's very obvious in the statement that we all reccived is one of a civic center and obviously we have a civic center beginning with City Hall. Potential City Hall expansion. Library relocat/om Post ~. City Center Park and so forth and perhaps in this particular area, because the ownership, at least at this point in time seems to rest with the liRA, you know they also put some interesting opportunities there to further enhance our civic center. So I had the oppartunity to go to a couple of the ~gs. I know Nancy's probably, I think Nancy and Jeff went. Mancino: In fact I just got a m~iling from the last meeting and I would urge everybody to attend on the Planning Commis~ and one of the things that we're looking at as an ad hoc committee for 2002 is making this area, the city center, and I mean it was even brought up maybe in this particular site is a public library. That may work out. I mean obviously the committee has not come to any conclusions or recomnm~dations but they are in the middle of Plarming Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 doing this. So it might be wise to listen to those much like the Highway 5 task force. To wait until the Vision 2002 committee gets done and makes recommendations to the Planning Commission and City Council because they're going to take the whole central business district as a whole and look at it and do some site analysis. Scott: And also too to say, here's something that's on the table far this particular site. Mancino: Well there are lots of citizens involved. There are professionals involved and I think that the HRA is the one that's funding H~ington to facih'tate all thi,.. So it's a very real thing that's going on right now and it's addressing a central business district as a whole. Scott: And I think we've got a very strong tradition of taking our ad hoc commi~ citizen comrnimms extremely seriously. But then again what we have to do, what I've seen too as when there's an ordinance in the works, we always have wark~ with our applicants to say, it's not here today. We don't know precisely what it's going to be but these are the things we can count on far sure and guide them that way. Any other, anybody else from the audience wish to speak on _this particular issue7 Vemellc Clayton: Did you want to see the elevations? Bill Brisley: Do you want to see something about the other building? Farms~es: Yes. Harberts: But we're done with Wendy's at this point right7 Scott: Yes. Okay, let's move on to Edina Realty. Harbens: Well it's coming back on March 2nd7 Sco~ Oh yeah. We're not going to be making any recommen_ d~fions this evening anyway. Bill Brisley: ...I'm an architect employed Amcon Ccn'porafi~..~ specifically tonight for thc proposed dcvclopmcnt by...I was charged by thc devcl~ to create a modular, highly flexible and...rental space to accomm~ different combinations of retail and offum service businesses over the useable life of this building. Lease tm'ms are relatively short in this market, 3 to 5 years so the design of the b~jlding must accommodate frequent changes as they inevitably occur. At the same time...~ influences in the context of this downwwn area, my mission was also to create an archi~ link between the shopping center, of which this lot is a visible and legal relative, and an emer~ng ~sen city image de~ned 41 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 by the new project such as the Country Suites, Medical complex, the apamnent building behind that, thc bank across from Festival Foods, Brooks, and the older lraditional landmarks such as the steeple church and some of the main street homes further east. The PUD agreement governing this lot also stated that the b~rilrling should be compatible with the Market Square shopping center which, from a massing point of view, was a combination of gable and flat roof systems, What has emerged as it result of these ingredients is a small Chanhassen compatible bn_ildlng with a moderately high pitch, being 8 1/2 to 12. 8 1/2 to 12 pitch hip roof or main roof with 6:12 12 gabled gables punctuating that roof for visual relief and aesthetic interest. The shingles are asphalt type and as used on most of tho buildings or pitched roofs in downtown Chanhas8~ and are to be a green color to mA_w_.h the green used in the shopping center coping metal. Samples of the actual 8hlngles will be subrllitted to staff at the time of construction to verify compliance with expectations of _this concept. The gabled donnel~..adjacent shopping center details. The gray lapped ~rling, white with trim around the windows and dazk gray rock face foundation block 8ills ullder the window8 came directly from the...and are specified to match the materials and colors of Market Square directly. Square punched, four pane horizontal and verticaL..windows on all four sides of the bn|lrling help to cr~te a shop like vernacular as opposed to the typical linear store front kina_:..of most cormnewial strip shopping centel~...On Monday of this week C/mnhassen staff requested that the longitude in the ws_lls be further broken for visual relief and the aesthetic interest by offsetting them outward 2 feet is actually what we came up wiltx Not one. The corregafion with the gables. This effect is apparent in thc enclosed com?ut~ mod¢l of the bp_ilrlin§. If the Planning Commission's reaction is positive to _this, x will be renderin§ a larger version of these pictures with trees, people and cars for the subsequent meeting. Can I answer any questions? Scott: Any questions or comments7 Farmakes: What is the darker gray on the illustration that you passed out is the masonry? Bill Brisley: That's the rock faced masonry. Bill Brisley: The clapboard and the white verticals are the 6 inch trim that goes around all the windows. Mancino: Windows are all the same size7 Bill Bfisley: They're the same size. Fammkes: If we were looking at this building then in it's true form, on two sides of the 42 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 building then would be the sign runners as per I~mt, correct? Bill Brisley: Right. Farmakes: In the smaller area betweam thc roof and the windows? Bill Brisley: Right. That might be Edina Realty..~dght now we're looidng at about three Harberts: For the whole building? Fannak~: In your revised perspective detail, this would be on both the north and the south part of the building that we would be looking at or would it also be on the east and west section? Bill Brisley: The signage you're talking about? Farmakes: Where it comes out a couple of feet7 Bill Brisley: No, no. On the end it cannot do that because we don't have that idnd of slope. Fannakes: Okay. So this would be on the north and south end of the building? Bill Brisley: North and south. More of the gables..a~ctually the gables themselves conM protrude on the end. It's just that the wall can't go out because we're tight against the Fannakes: When the PUD from '89, was the ovea-all covenant that was in place for downtown devel~t, where the..~line, I think it was consistent or...There's a line where the development has to be, I'm forgetting the calch word that's used. Farmu~ms: Compatible, yeah. Is that it7 ~ this PUD, i~n't there also an overall downtown development co:linance that also uses that word7 Al-laff: Yes. And it's basically downtown archit~ure is what it usem Farmakes: Okay, but in the terms then of Mark~ I ond the PUD out of '89 for Market I, ignoring the overall ordinance for downtown, compatible would be same as then as Mark~ I, Planning Commission Me6ting - Febnmr~ 16, 1994 right7 Al-laff: Yes. Farmakes: Okay. So the intent here was to replicate some shape or form of Mad~ I? To a certain exltmt yOU'l~ nod_ding your ~ Was that as pan of the assignment? Bill Brisley: That, was I inl~n_din§ to do that? No I wasn't. I was uldng to pull pm-re. Ingredients as I descrit~ from Mad~t I and downtown. Market I details are kind of diffi~t to put on a very small building. Mark~-t I, a lot of the expression on Market I cntme from the fact that they are very large squatra. Large boxes. And fiat roofs. It would be easy to do if it w~re a flat roof, just pitch up...entryway but. Fannakes: In '89 was the inmt~tation of that line, that the building should be of a like quality within a development or that they physically should represent one anothex. Al-la.fi: We wanted nrchi~-mm~ elnneuts that were similar to the oventll PUD sgreen~nt. The standards that were set for Market Square. Fannakes: Okay, so similar in detailing. Similar in not just cost per square foot but similar in, it looks like an extension of the bnilding in other words? Al-Jaff: Yes. It looks like an extension. It doesn't have to be a duplicate of the existing building but would have to have some similan'fies. Mancino: Then you're just talking about compatibility. Al-$aff: Yes. Mancino: So you're talking about compafi~. It doesn't have to be similar in the ma_Lcrials you use or anything but it has to be compatible with what's in Market Square FI Okay. So we could go to full brick here and not clapboard or otc? I mean we have some versatility? Al-laff: Yes, you do. Mancino: Okay. Vemelle Clayton: Do you want the language? "Designed with proper building m~__tcri_'~ls so as to be architecturally compatible with the shopping center." Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Mancino: So we get compatibility. Richard Wing: What was the dat~ on that? Vcrnelle Clayton: All of these documents were executed on February 28, 1992. Farmulms: Now is thai the ordinance for downtown thai you just read ar is that for Maflmt, the PUD for Market Square? Al-laff: This is Market Square. F~: Okay. Why is that dated '92 and not '897 That's when those documen~ were recorded at Carver County. Farmakes: Oh I see. So the ordinance was recorded at that point, okay. Scott: Any other questions or convnen_ ts7 Okay. Wonid anybody else like to speak about the Edina Realty portion7 Okay, thank you very much. Yes sir. Richard Wing: Can I just make7 Scott: If we can ~ar you. I want to mulm sure we g~ you as pan of the public record. Richard W'mg: Richard W'mg, 3481 Shore Drive, Chanhassem The only thing I wanted to just conunent on, as I listen to the last couple of seconds of ~is was tying this into the existing Market Square. And I remember vividly, not only here but at the Council and particularly HRA, that Market Square caught some real heated demand and we had just started to move into the thinking of the 90's and new development standards and new quality standards and HRA took some heat for just simply running this thing through. There was I think some talk at the very beginning of scrubbing it because let's not make a mistake. And in fact Market Square was built and some of the design standards such as the little pm-apets and so on were added at the last, the last second as a knee jeck reaction to try and get this thing through and the developers were concerned about dollars and we couldn't redesign it but yet we knew we really wanted to redesign it. I ~member distinctly those discussions here. Towards the very end and it went in but the thinking of the 90's stoned to take over and that's been well represented by what's ocan'dng in the city now snd our slandazds are increasing dramatically and we're not even close to being tqnished yet. We should have ordinances on line where we don't even have to discuss these issues. They're just so demanding that as people come into Chanhassen, in this growing market, they're ~ clear Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 cut. Like Highway 5's going to demand glass, brick or better. So I'm very concerned that there's discussion of trying to tie this into what I believe, and I think we documented it, was thought to be a mistake. The old school The old thinking. It's colors. It's awhliectural style. It's roof lines, etc. To tie these buildings into that existing Mag~ Square to me is another mistake that I don't think we need to make so I guess I hope you can start to discuss what's there at Market Square now. I don't want nmre boildings that look like that and I'm going to be very sensitive to those issues. So I think we're on the wrong track desi~ wise for that corner and it's premiere position. But just the history I think on the record with, I think I'll hold my comments. I hope I'm not, I may be talking off the recard but nonefl~ess from the heart and to the best of my judgment that those connnents were ~etty prominent at that time. But I think on the record, I think everybody involved said, well if we could just do this again or if it wasn't so far along...and put a little different coloring on it. A little different architecture and protect it from the highway a little b/t more~ Bill Mordsh kind of came in and went ooh. Just what we're trying to get away from you're doing, but it was done. So let's not do it again. Farmuire~s: What I was trying to ~e here Dick is what commitments the City made in '89 to this pani~ PUD devel~t as an outlot or extemsion before we critique what's before .us here. As I understand it, the city owns the pwpeny and there's a contractual purchase agreement of some sort. Richard V~Vmg: To the best of my ability, from what I've been able to learn, I think there's some knowledge that there was considerable concern at the end of the last Council meeting. And basically what's going on and who's driving and who made these decisions and where are we going and _this is our pivotable comer. I tried to get that out 5 tim~...had to spell it. Pivotable corner. Premiere comer. Extrenwfy sensitive corner. City Hall City Padc Well, you spelled them all out. So you're talking colors and parlring lo~s and whether a boat trailer will fit in there. We're talking land use...who owns it. What's going on and where do we want to go with it. And I think those will be real si~i~cant issues coming up on the 28th at the City Council and probably pan of the planning, a separate plan meeting to discuss these issues. So am I for or against, I wouldn't address that other than there's some very sensitive issues here and it's kind of an all or no_thing situation- Either we let &is go and develop the way it is, or we buy it for public use. I guess as far as, to answer your question Jeff. To my knowledge fight now, we have an option- They have an option or they have a purchase agreement to buy for a private use. If they can find a private use for that land, they have first option, first order to purchase that ~. However, if the city should elect to take it for public purpose, non-defined public purpose, we then would have to come up with another $1.00 a square foot and buy it back, which I believe we have the option to do. There's a major escape clause there for the city to take it for public use. Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 Farmakes: Some of these issues, I'm sure you may know, are covered in some of the work that was done for Highway 5. How they interplay with this particular app~on I think is pretty significant and I'm fairly comforlable that my questions have been answex~ with regards to what was committed in '89 versus now. Although you may take that up in more detail with the Council. Richard Wing: Another option you have is to buy the pwperty so that it's all or, we win. You know we want it all and then say we have a little higher standards than we thought. We're willing to renegotiate this and we own the land now. Very valuable land...for something better or more significant. I guess before I'm willing to get excited here about this issue one way or the other, I really want to know for sure who owns it, whe~ it's going and are there options and what are the land use, the best land uses there. I'm not real impressed with what's being offered considering the knpormace of that comer and the value of that corner. I'm not real im~ with the quality of the buildings, the design of the buildings, and I guess the other issue that came up at Council is fast food location~. We've discussed it. We've been worded about it. We just got done with the automotive issues. So there's a lot of wheels turning here and it's really unfortunate. I think that these people certainly have some rights...I don't want to see this tied into what I feel is sort of a haph~Tant ~ that occured in the 70's and 80's when we got ~ I don't like... Vemellc Claywn: I need to respond to a couple things because he has stated he doesn't like gray. I mean I can say I don't like brown but at this point here...when it gets to the Council it mst-va a difference...We get a lot of comments, very favorable comments of what Mafl~ Square looks like so while there was...example the back side in terms of how that might look and we added exwa trees to hide it, we made some accommodafion~ to the city and the 10t and so forth which everyone, including in the city would know...but we've gotten a lot of very favorable comments on how Market Square looks. And a lot of people really like the gray. Thc other thing is, I think before we start using thc arg,~ment that we can do this with the pr~, meaning the city, or not, you must get clarification fxom the a__nomey because it's very clear in the documents. It specifically says, if the HRA gets a third party offer. In other words, you decided to put something else on the pwtna~...Bloomberg can match it. So it isn't, you can't just say hey, we're going to change our minds here and tell these people they can't do what they want to do with their ~. It's not that ~irr,m, le. The other thing is, you do have to be carefial these days that...do constitute takings and so you need to be thinking about that and you don't, because you don't make_, that decision. I had a third point. Oh, the other thing is is that, I guess I find it a little offensive to say that we had knee jerk reactions. I wasn't directly involved in the architecture. Bill was and he was just shaking his head back there that the parapets that we added were not added at the last minute and were not knee jerk reactions and they were part of what people seemed to like about Market Square. The other thing, and then I won't say any more, is that Paul mentioned to you earlier Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 with respect to the use of thc property and the archi~...were governed by the PUD is a conUact. You have a contract with us and we have a contract with you and that contract says that these buildings will be compatible. So we have to try to do the beat we can under the circumstances and we, I think demonsuated that we're willing to mRke ChBJlges 8Jld thB~ Sort of thin§. All and all, it all comes down to what the public can bear. If you add thin/s that end up costing thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to the building, e/ther it won't be built or it will be built and tenants will come there...and they'll have to pass onto, it's not.., economics but it's very real If a building costs more, the rents are higher and the...We all want something nice here but we also want it to be...i ,mlmct on Market Square. A library just doesn't cut it. You can say for example, you can look, if you don't believe me, that it doesn't bring the I~affic that it needs. Or frankly...I don't think the city, people in C]lanhlL&sen are very excited abotlt coming to a city park that is no activity. If yoll wanted a park without activity, you go to the country. If you go to a city park, you want activity. You want people. You want lights. You want action. That's what we're trying to provide, not only for the whole synergy of the downtown but also for Mad~ Square:..but we think this can be done well We'd like to wodc with you and cooperate with you. Oh I know the point I lost That I share the...library. It doesn't bring uaffic. It's quiet, somber and the proof of the putting is, look at the State ordinance and look at the pafldug requirements. The ones with the most traffic have the most stringent req~ts...1 car for every 50 square feet. Retail is I for every 200. Office is 1 for every 250. I can't remember 1RamT but it's less than all of those. So that kind of wslce, s that point. We need to have a viable downtown and just because.., we'd like a library on our most important corner doesn't mean that that's what the city should...Well I've worn out my welcome so. Sc, om Why don't we in the next 10 minutes maybe give general ~ts for the applicant and then we continue ~ public ~g. Then we can go/rom there but at least give them some formal feedbaci~ Who'd like to start? Well I can. In my mind_; as I mentioned before, I think I'll just quickly summarize some of my thoughts. In my mind, having gone through the Highway 5 task force, I felt that was city non-government at it's best where you have a group of non-elected, non-appointed people in an ad hoc type situation, take an extremely weighty task and coming up with some very viable and well rounded standards that quite fl'ankly, as a Planning Commission we passed on to City Council with a few minor changes but nothing major. I think we have a ~ situation with our Vision 2000 and I think it's important tr, camse of there's the viability of the downtown. There's the view of it, and we all understand what Vision 2000, or at least those of us who are in lira city and have been involved with the process. That's something that I personally take very serimmly and paying close attention to that over the next 3 weeks because obviously we're going to see this again so. I have questions about the property and what it should be used for. I would also want to go on record personally, and if any of the other c, ommi~ioners would like to second thi.% is that if the, if indeed the HRA does own this ~, which I believe they do, that we would: Planning Commission Meeting - F~hruary 16, 1994 I would personally b~ very upset if it clmng~ hands within the next 30 days. And that's my l~rsonal opinion. Anyway, next. Harberl~: Are you insinuating that if there's elected officials on the HRA that they may not want to ca3n.~ider rllnn~g again? Scott: No. I have nothing to do with that. I'm just saying that ~ of tim ~nsitivity of this particular property and the ownership position that tim city has in it right now, that I'd b~ very upset if it changed hand& Farmak~: I'll make a couple of commen~. The reason I was again asking questions in regards to ownership of this property. ~ or not HRA was making a commitment to it. The city's been a parmer, maybe not in the legal sease but. I shouldn't say partner. I should say catalyst would be maybe the correct word to this development from it's ~on. As one of the applicants said, the city in a way took the place of a bank getting this thing off the ground, as a development. Market one. And obviously the~ are some self intm~sts to redevelopment of downwwn at that time. Trying to bring Chanhassen into some form of viable downwwn. In doing that I guess obviously the city becomes a direction or force within that. It seems that at times when necessm'y, the city's a welcome pm'iner and at other times, they seem to be accused of intedefing. I don't think they're interfering with this situation. I think that this junction that we have here is the pivotable area in the city. If the city makes an inve~t to pilatzo or city square or whatever this is in the back ymd here of the City Hall are~ It's obviously going to be a gathering place. A center to gather for whatever city functions we have here. The ~ that we're talking about, as far as the o~ building will be adjacent to that. V~nen I saw the Byerly's development that can~ in here, and I looked at the square foot type of development flint was proposed there. I had to say that I had hoped that that would be the type of quality building that we would see adjacent w that property. Something with stone and something that followed along the lines of wha~ we had been working on the Highway 5 task farce with archit~'an~ requirements and that would be part of that ordinance. I ~nd this parficul~ bnilding lacking in that. I find these gables way disproportionate to the shape of the building. I can see, it seems as ff it's again thrown out as a problem w a solution perhaps in negotiations talking about the function of the building. If I take the dormers away, coinddentally enough, it looks very similar to the church that was proposed for the industrial bnilding. Or industrial zone. Obviously per square foot cost is the way you stm't out a retail building and the problem I've always had with what we do is our office buildings are quasi retail buildings. There's not much of a difference between the two. It could be a doctar's office and it conld be a v/deo, it seems to me as an issue of planning that that's very convenient for the developer but it's not very convenient to plan a city and it seems to me we plan a city beyond 3 to 5 years that was just mentioned for the expectation of a retail tenant. We have to plan for beyond that and Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 although I think that it's true, what we add to these buildings by demanding these things is going to cost money. In the end in any business, that expense is returned to the consumer. That's true. I feel that in the end that's a good investment. It's an investment in our community here. I don't think that having basically an extension of the strip mall adjacent to that comer is what we should do there and I'd rcco~ that the city not l:mrsue that and that they pursuc a quality building on that corner. And if that means $ years from now, that means $ years from now. In going over to the Wendy's building, actually I havc to say I was more impressed with the Wendy's building than I was with the office buildins, which is a surprise that I saw a fast food bnilrling that impressed me more than the office building adjacent to it. There are a couple of things that I would make comments on in that bnilrllng. The red striping I _think is inappropril~ alKl is not oorr.m_._atible with the surrounding development as far as aocentuating the arohi~-tm~ with it. Right atUactive. I understand the reason for it. In a competitive situation where you were sturo~ by 12 other fast food franchises, as they are in the Prairie mall over in, down the street here. You've obviously in a different competition for sight from the streets and from potential consumers. You don't have that problem here. You've got no competition. You've got cars that are going by at 2~ mph and they have stop lights in front of you, or by your operation or where it's proposed. It would seem to me very sad for us to get into a fast food franchise here that would pm,sue bright garish colors as pan of the architecture. It would seem to me to be incon~,atible. I know as a citizen I wouldn't want to see that in our downtown. Now there may be issues of legality here of the gray area between what is signage and what is arohiteomral taste. Again, the Highway 5 ordinance deals with some of that as an ordinance in defining the _difference between them, The actual signage package that you're proposing, it seems to me to be fine. It's a rnod~te package is what we're looking for here. We're not Irying to excl& businesses from having packaging for signage. But we want a moderate proposal. We think that's sufficient. If everybody has a modezate proposal, we think that you'll be seen. Nobody's going by at 50 mph through here. Your position is too far away from the highway to have a reasonable expectation that that brightne~ is going to be seen from the highway a couple blocks away. So I certainly think, if you relooked at that, either as oattying the gre~ to the trim from the gabled or from the pitched roof, or picking up burgundy or something from the Market Square development on it, that would be far more palatable to me.. I like the use of your stone and that looks quite good. So I'm trying to be constmotive here with this plan. I'm not sure that that's the location for a fast food development, although I am not sure also, and the Council may want to look at this, of the viability. That if it's not a small business, what small free standing business outside of that lot is going to be viable. If an office building goes in there, is it going to tak~ up the entire lot versus the split and I'm not sure that that's a feasible market situation. But the city being the owner, they may want to decide whether they want to put their money where their mouth is. I'm trying to come up with something constructive to the office building here. I can't. I think it's, originally the Americana Bank b~_il,~ing was proposed for that m I thought it looked ~ a prison. I Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 _think this looks like thc guard barracks, and I'm not trying to be facetious but I thlnir the same things are in place. It's not trying to be anything more than what it is. It's trying to be a retail extension that could be used as office and that's what we've got hem. We've got a square foot cost for a strip mall ~on. And I think that that's not what that site calls for. That's it Scott: Okay. Ladd. Conrad: Just two comments. One, I think the area does need, or Mark~ Square needs more additional support in t~rns of r~a]l or office. I think that just creates, I think that's imp~r~mt for this arr,. And the other thing is, I just want to mak~ sure we handle this like a PUD. And I made those comments ~y. I want to mak~ sure we're connectr~l. I want to maim sure staff has really thought out all the problems that we've heard of over there in terms of miff, and I assume they have but I just need that sense that we're solving problems. Not ~§ more problems. That's all Harberts: Well I would basically concur with the ~ts of Jeff and Ladd and I have to agree too with regard to, I think I'm heaging there needs to be some kind of trae~ generator. I'm having a real hard time though seeing the, I like Wendy's but I'm just, I'm just not very comfortable that it fits in what's bcing.proposed with this and it's just the whole traffic circulation and I think I would encomage staff also to the pedestrian elements here. That came through loud and clear with the citizen input. But I'm just uncomfortable from that traffic flow so I'm not very content that it's, maybe it's too much with what's being done. I have to agree with Ladd that I think there needs to be another ~ generator there and it's going to certainly enhance the mall but I'll just leave my comments at that for now. Mancino: And I don't have too many new ones. I just want to say again how much I 100% support, I mean I don't know what needs to really go at this corner. I mean I can't tell you whether a Wendy's or an office building doea I do know that I do support what the Vision 2002 is doing and I would like to keep them focused on looking at the downwwn as a whole and getting back W us with their recommendations and that is from thc citizens that are on there, from professionals that are on there and I just know how i~t it was for me, what I learned on the Highway $ task force, and it's a lot of people putting in valuable time and it's not citizens just listening to professionals. It's them asking the good what if questions and saying what they want to see in their downtown and having some input. And if we cut it off now, it's kind of like you know, here you've got me on this committee. I'm giving all my volunteer time and yet you're going to go ahead and just continue developing the downwwn. Can't you wait for us to get done and make recommendations and whatever those reconuncndations are. I don't know what they're going to be but at Mast it gives us, the Planning Commission, which we are supposed to do is planning and we can look over their 51 Pl_n_aaing Commission Meeting - Fe~ 16, 1994 recomngmdations and then go funh~. $o I would, I'm just 100% in support of that. F~: I forgot to mention one thing in my comment. I want to make a constructive criticism on the office building and I forgot to do that. Bm'net Realty is b~_ilding a free st_nnding bn_ilding on Highway 5. The quality of that bnildlng stands out greatly from those around it. I think that the buildings around it are very typical of strip mall type buildings. I think that the Burnet Realty b~jlding that they're bnilding there is not and that's my ex~rr~.le of, you know it's bind of quasi Georgian, classic design. N'~ce ms__u~ials. When you look at that building, it stands out. I think that that's what we're looking for here. That's what I _think belongs there. Scott: This item will be continued at ou~ next meeting. APPROVAL OF MINLrrF~: Sc. om Can I have a motion to approve the Minutes of the last meeting? Mancino: So moved. Scott: Can I have a second please7 Farmakes: I have Minutes of the old meeting. I do have a c, ozrection. They had me saying it cost $18.00 to house an institutionalized...situation. It should be $18,000.00. Scorn That was $18.00 a niuute. Farwnlre~: That's on page, I don't have pages numbered. If you could amend that from $18.00 to $18,000.00. Scorn So noted. Mancino moved, Hnrberts seconded to approve the 1Wmutes of the Plnnning Commission meeting dnted Februnry 2, 1994 ns nmended by Jeff Fnrmnkes, All voted in fhvor nnd the motion cnrried. Scott: Excuse me Sharmin, do we have a City Council upda~? Councilmnr, Wing gave us a bit of an update but I understand that we have a new cowmiasioner, Ron Nutting. I did speak with him last night and invited him to come to our. Yeah, he was the fellow with the finance background and who had some, actually wozked for Trammel Crow for a number of years 52 Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 and so forth. So I called him. I talked to him yes~y and invited him to the next meeting and we're going to get togcther with him, me or whocvcr and go over thc night's packet nmi try to break him in a little bit more. But anyway. Any other items from the last City Council meeting that we need to know about? Okay. Al-Jaff: Other than the one...and that would be in regards to the joint meeting between the Planning Commission and City Council. Scott: Okay, whe~'s that? Al-laff: Thc City Council wishes to have a joint meeting sometime during the month of April and it would be before your regular Planning Commi.~sion meeting. It wonld start at 5:30. You have a choice of either April 6th or April 20th. Scorn Okay. Is that my choice? Well, we'll see who's paying attention. I'll say the 20th and hearing no objections. Does that sound good for you? Harberts: Do we have a Planning Cornmiss/on that nighf? Scorn Yeah. I don't mind doing that. Okay, good. Any ongoing items? No. Administrative appmvat~ Anything you'd like us m talk about. I think we've had our op~ discussion. Commissioner Harberts, may I have a motion to adjourn. Harberts moved, Cmu-ad seconded to adjourn the meeting. AU voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:10 p.m. Submitted by Paul Krauss Planning Director Pr~ared by Nann Ophe~m 53 ! II I