PC 1993 05 19CHRNH~SSEN PL~N~IN~ CO~I~I~ION
REGULAR MEETING
M~Y 19, 1993
Chairman Batzli called the meeting to order at 7:40 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Joe Scott, Nancy Manctno, Brian Batzli, Matt Ledvina,
Ladd ConKad, and Jeff Farmakes
MEMBERS ~ENT: Diane Harberts
STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss, Planning Director; Kate Aanenson, Senior
Planner; and Dave Hempe], Asst. City Engineer
PUBLI~C H~RING:
CHANH~SSEN VENTURE. INC, WHO PROPOSES TO' CONSTRUCT AN 18.522 ~~,=E FOOT
BUILDING. ~N UPPER AIR INFLATION BUILDING FOR L~UNCHIN6 B_~_LOONS. ~ A
FUTUR~ NEXRAD ~ TOWER FOR THE N~TI~ .u!=_AT _HF_R ~E_RVICE ON PROPERTY
ZONED PUD-IOP. PL/~ED UNIT DEVELOPMENT-INDUSTRI/~ OFFICE P~RK. LOCATED
ERST OF AUDUBON ROAD AND E~UTH OF HIGHLY 5 IN THE ~~SEN B~IN~S~
CENTER ,,
Public Preaent:
Greg Doeden
Ross Huseby
Ken O'Konek
Jerry Krieger
Joe Edes kuty
Gay Schmidt
Mark Anderson
8480 Swan Court
1431 Heron Drive
1421 Heron Drive
2800 Wayzata Boulevard
406 Cimarron Circle
8301Gaipin Boulevard
1441 Mallard Court
Kate Aanenson presented the staff report on this item. Chairman Batzli
called the public hearing to order.
Larry Predwick: First of all let me begin by saying that the National
Weather Service is in the process of beginning, or' not beginning but in the
early stages of a rather large scale modernization effort across the entire
country. We're taking advantage of a lot of new technology which is coming
to age right now. We're working our weather service operations into a
format that each office, unlike what we do right now. For example in
Minneapolis, at the airport we have what Ne call a State forecast office.
That State forecast office is basically responsible for the majority of the
forecasts and the warnings, especially for winter events and so on, that
cover the entire state of Minnesota. We've got local field offices, such
as International Falls, up at Duluth, Rochester, St. Cloud and so on that
provide some detailed local services. The organization that we're going
into in the future will result in just about each one of the new field
offices, which in the state of Minnesota will be at Duluth. Will be at
Minneapolis. Then a flank up near Fargo. Or actually Grand Forks. Over
at LaCrosse and down at Sioux Falls. Is that each one of those offices
will, for all practical purposes be equal in the type of service that they
will be providing. One of the corner stones behind this new field
structure is the new radar system that we are in the process of installing.
Planning Commission Meeting
May i9, i993 - Page 2
The Weather Service is already under contract with the Paramax Corporation
to purchase and install this new equipment. It is, to say the least, a
major change in the technology that we're using today. We would be
obligated to go through some sort of a change even if it was not for the
new capabilities of the system, because quite frankly the radar equipment
that we're using today, we number systems. We call them, like for example
you've heard the number BS-D. WSR 88-D stands for Weather Surveillance
Radar, Model 88 Dopier. The reason that the Be is there is that stands for
.the year in which the design was locked into place and started using that
level of technology. The current system that we have today, for example at
the International Airport here, and also at a number of other places around
the country is a WSR 57. Maybe that will tell you at what point that radar
was built. In other words, in 1957 that's the type of technology that
we're using right now and quite frankly we're the only federal agency that
teaches it's technicians how to maintain vaccum tube technology. Because
that's how old this equipment is. So we would have to replace it no matter
what. An important aspect of this technology is, it gives us the ability
to look at the atmosphere, especially storm structure in a manner in which
we've never been able to do before. As best as I can maybe give you an
analogy. If you're familiar with CRT Scan or maybe better correctly an
analogy of an MRI. We can do now to the atmosphere with this type of
technology what an MRI can provide a doctor with being able to look at the
human body in all three dimensions. And also pick out whatever dimension
that they want to look at. So consequently it's important where we place
this particular piece of equipment. You've heard the term an X-ray I've
used and let me begin here by giving you a little quick update on what
these terms Nexrad means. Next generation weather radar. It's going to
provide a continuous scanning Of the atmosphere, contemplation of severe
weather, percipitation estimates and early detection of tornadic storms.
The system is being jointly paid for by three agencies. The Department of
Defense, the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Weather
Service. The primary function of this new particular technology is that
we're going to be able to increase the average tornado warning time,
improve the accuracy and descriptions about the locations and severity of
thunder storms developing a distinction between severe and less severe
storms. And just this whole list of things that you can see here which is
not really possible with the level of technology that we're working with
today. For all practical purposes today, the only thing that our radar can
look at is what we call reflectivity. This particular new piece of
equipment gives us the ability to look at all of these different types of
parameters. And I think out of this whole thing there's about 500 and some
odd different, individual subsets of this that we can look at. These
radars are being placed in a national network. This will give you an idea
of the rough distribution and it's important where we place these things
because what we want to be able to do is to best we can, to cover the
entire United States. This particular slide right here shows the coverage
at 10,000 feet for the country from the network that we're planning on
putting in and with the exception of these places that you see out here,
way out west, which is due to extremely high mountains and so on. And also
there's very, very low densities as far as population is concerned.
There's a few places that we're not going to be able to cover as well as
we'd like. The systems that are going to cover the state of Minnesota are
depicted in this slide. See we'll have one up here. Actually this is a
little town called Mayville. Weather Service office will be located at
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 3
Grand Forks. ~nd then there will be a radar located at Duluth, the one
here in Minneapolis and one at LaCrosse, Quad Cities, Des Moines, Sioux
Falls. This will give you an idea of the approximate level of coverage.
Placement of these is rather important because of the ability to be able to
look at the vertical structure of the storms and the atmosphere. It's the
objectives to place these things in the approach zone of severe weather to
the largest population center that we're attempting to cover, which in this
particular case is going to be Minneapolis. That's why in this particular
slide you see what the approach zone of blizzards is. Frontal systems.
The approach of severe storms, which are also the...producers. So it's
important that we place these radars as best we can in certain geographic
locations. Also to take advantage of certain tor~ographic features which
helps what we call surpress ground clutter. And this is the projected
coverage of the radar located at the site that we picked here. This is
what we see at 2,000 feet or above. 4,000 feet and above and 6,000 feet
and above and the reason that these elevations are what they are, is due to
the earth curvature. Unlike conventional radars, this particular piece of
equipment operates in an entirely different mode and this slide right here
hopefully will give you some idea of what happens. Is that the radar
operates at a minimum elevation of a half degree above the horizontal. It
makes a complete sweep and automatically tilts up to another half degree
and makes a complete sweep. It goes up again and makes another tilt. Makes
a complete sweep and so on. So it goes through 14 elevations in 5 minutes
in this particular mode, what we call volume coverage pattern 21. It will
do it in 6 minutes at 9 elevations and there are several others and so the
end result is, is that we wind up getting a volume coverage of the
atmosphere and this will kind of graphically give you an idea of what that
looks like. From that then we can go back and because of the computer
power that's available today in fairly small and compact systems, we can go
and analyze the atmosphere in a manner in which we've never been able to do
before. The site that we picked is actually somewhat of a compromise
because there are other sites we looked at and the simple fact of the
matter is, this is the best site for the available dollars and cents. And
without going into any more details, here's another couple things here.
Since the last meeting that we were at, ! brought along a couple of
interesting little pictures here that we talked about but I really wasn't
able to show the last time I was here. One of the things that we'll do,
and why we're working with the FRR on this is because the system will give
us the ability to look at the upper part of the atmosphere in a manner in
which we've never been able to do. Every $ minutes we'll get a complete
wind profile. And why the FAA is interested in this is because it also
helps provide input as far as information related to wind sheer. I think
it goes without saying that if we could prevent one aircraft, commercial
aircraft accident as a result of this piece of equl~ent right here, it
would have more than paid for itself a thousand times over. Another thing
we can look at, and this is one that I took off of a radar down at Kansas
City a few days ago where we had a rather sizeable severe weather event go
through. The system can sit there and monitor storms that otherwise we
would have to do manually, and one of the things that you will notice that
this little Juncture right here. See that little circle. What the
computer has done is it has analyzed a spot right there and said that at
this location the computer has identified what we call a mezzlocyclone.
Rnd indeed, because of this particular little indication right here and the
subsequent issuing of a tornado warning, about l0 minutes later a tornado
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 4
did touch down in this location and moved across just to the north of
Kansas City and consequently we were able to provide additional warning
time, lead time that we've never been able to do before. And lastly, this
is a picture that I took off of the radar at, this. occurred last Sunday
night. This is from Wichita, Kansas where we had the system operating.
You'll notice around here in this particular location, correlate this to
the percipttation amounts and what it showed here, which we ,ould have not
seen before, is we detected percipitation amounts in the .6 to 7 inch range
in less than 3 hours. And consequently we were able to put up flash flood
warnings for Coffeeville, Kansas considerably earlier than we would have
otherwise and potentially may have saved a number of lives in this area
because of the indications that we got from here. And as it turned out, we
received an official report, unfortunately had we had to wait on that and
not have this radar picture, that report didn't come in until the next
morning but the report came in, 6.7 inches of rain in a 2 hour period of
time. So as a result of having this kind of technology available to us, we
were able to do a lot better job in protecting both lives and property
within that particular community. And with that, that in a nutshell is
basically what we're going to be doing and some information pertaining to
the radar. The only other thing that I might mention regarding the site
is, is that one other thing that will be going on there, and some questions
had come up about it and that is the launching of a small instrument
package twice a day. What we call an upper air sounding. And I might
point out that the balloon that will be released is about twice the size
of, and by the way this is what will go right here. Will be released twice
a day from a balloon, or carry a balloon that's about twice the size of
this screen and just for informational purposes. Here's an example of the
little instrument package that it will carry. This particular piece of
equipment right here is only a shelter for parabolic reflector in there
that does not have any radiating characteristics at all. Ail it's doing is
it's tracking a little radio signal that comes from this instrument right
here. If you've ever heard of a radio..., that's what it's called. So,
with that I'11, unless you have any questions.
Batzli: What happens to the instrument once the balloon decides to come
down?
Larry Predwtck: The instrument actually is carried aloft, it gets up to
sometimes as high as 50,000 to 60,000 feet. There is ~ parachute that's
connected to it and whenever the balloon bursts, then the instrument is
brought back to ground via this parachute. And normally that's anywhere
from 50 to 60 miles down wind and we get about half of these, not half but
maybe 40~ of these are returned. You'll find on the side of this it says,
Notice to the Finder. This instrument is the property of the U.S.
Government and explains what it is and inside of it there'.s a little
mailing package and we just simply ask people to drop the entire package
inside the mailing package and give it to the postal service and they send
it back. And they're reconditioned and re-released again. The only ones
we generally don't get back are the ones that go into mountains and the
ones that we release off the east coast of the United States. Those we
rarely see. Any other questions?
Batzli: Are you going to address the issues regarding public health?
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 5
Larry Predwick: If you'd like me to do that now, I'd be more than happy to.
8atzli: Why don't you give us an overview.
Larry Predwick: One of the things I think that is a misconception about
the radar equipment that we're using is that, first of all the system is in
what we call a volume coverage type of scanning mode. In other wordm, the
lowest elevation at which the antenna can come down to is a half degree
above the horizontal. And then the majority of the time, approximately 5
minutes out of every 6, the antenna is actually raised looking above the
horizon. The way these types of radars operate is that they emit a short
pulse of energy, literally measured in microseconds. That's a millionth of
a second. Then the radar transmitter turns off and it sits there and
listens and waits for that signal to come back. And in a 24 hour period of
time, the ~adar is in a radiate mode less than 3 minutes out of the entire
day. The west of the time that radar is sitting there listening for
signals to come back. The Weather Service has studied this extensively in
terms of it's health aspects and this particular document right here, which
was issued in April, 1993, is a supplemental environmental assessment of
the effects of electromagnetic radiation from a WSR 88-0. Now I might
point out in here that there are 30 pages of scientific studies that have
been conducted with regards to the bio effects of radiation on the human
body and these are all ~eferree studies ! might point out. And the bottom
line of all this is, is that at the face of the antenna, 20 feet away from
the actual face of the antenna, the average radiation emitted is .9
milowatts per square centimeter. At the ground level it's .000043. The
standard by the American National Standards Institute is set at 5 milowatts
per centimeter. I might point out that that is 8, no. That's 12 times
less than the average amount of radiation that somebody would receive in 6
minutes in the sun. In terms of the system-that we're operating at ground
level, that's 10,000 times the radiation level from that radar unit.
lO,O00 times lower than the minimum standard established by the American
National Standards Institute. Now the reason that we've done a lot of
research into this was because people have asked the questions and also
we've got employees that work there and we're Just as concerned about their
safety as people that are living in the area near this. I think it's safe
to say, no pun intended, it's a pretty safe piece of equipment. Is that
enough, or would you like me to go into more detail?
Batzli= We may have some more questions later. That's fine.
Aanenson: Okay, I think it'd be appropriate then to maybe let Wayne go
through and talk about the building layout itself and maybe just before he
starts. Just to get you oriented a little bit. The access off of Lake
Drive East, as mentioned. The radar, which will be, it's actually from the
top of Audubon Road it will be about 107 feet which is another reason that
the staff felt good about this. This site is actually recessed and it's
lowering the height and the impact of that tower. We'll be behind that
facing, actually facing Audubon..Then behind that, which is closer to
Cluff Creek Estates, will be the upper air inflation building. So I'll let
Wayne walk through all that.
Wayne Perlenfein= Kate has done an excellent job. I'm Nayne Perlenfein
with the architectural firm that's been hired...national standards building
Planning Commission Meeting
Hay 19, 1993 - Page 6
for this use. By way of clarification, there are 3 structures that Nill go
on this site in terms of buildings. Not 2. We have the major building,
Nhich is the research facility for the monitoring and forecasting Of the
Neather... There's about 17,500 square feet. Behind it ~e have a
generator and storage building of approximately 800 square feet and then
out in back Ne have the upper air inflation building, that you've been
speaking about... So there are those 3 major structures. B®Bidee the
and you can ask the question later of Larry, the configuration of the two
toners that sit on the site. One satellite and one...excess radar which is
in the package... The building itself, the major building is a masonry
building constructed of 3 types of brick. We've brought the sample that
the government typically uses for your consideration. A majority of the
building is this, Nith some accent banding and then some 8 x 8 colors here.
The storage building out back is constructed of the same material, the same
colors and the upper air inflation building is a block building Ntth
integral color that compliments it. 10 feet away you wouldn't know it's
not brick and Kate has a picture that she... The building is straight
forward. I might dra~ your attention to the fact that the site plan that
I'm looking at here is someNhat different from the one that you have in
your packet. We had had a conversation ~ith Kate after our submittal to
you Nhere Ne discussed landscaping location in a general sense and also in
the parking...respond very qu£ckly so we increased the parking. And
moved some landscaping...but other than that the site plan is what you have
in your package there. It's a l0 acre site. Approximately 2 acres is
covered by either flexible pavement, asphalt parking or building
structures. We have an open area...The elevation as shown on our draNing
right noN, to the finished floor is at 938 or roughly 38 feet. To the best
of my understanding...given by the PUD people, Audubon Road is about 62.
Okay? So you can see that our building, you're going to look doNn onto it.
The view that you see here, the perspective, is a frontal view. You're
going to be looking at the back and Kate...so the building itself is
nestled, if you will, into the side of the hill. Non-obtrusive. It's down
in the site...Ne're looking at a building height of about 15 feet. There
are projections...so Ns're at approximately, if you stand on the pavement
on Audubon, the top of our building is 10 feet. So it's at about eye level
you're at 15-16 feet above the roof. We believe that the landscaping
provided by the PUD and the park development along Audubon Nill more than
screen the-building. The nexus radar toner, I forget the overall height of
that.
Larry Predwick: Actually the height Nould be about 136 feet.
Wayne Perlenfein: Considering it's location, it's about the size of a
Nater toner and Nill be projecting, because here again the position of the
site, it will be about 20 feet above the tree line. You're not going to
have this symbol out there...That's pretty much it for the building...
8atzli: Kate. Did you have a chance to look at these modified plans?
Aanenson= Yes. We talked about the parking. That's in the report
specifically that Ne had mentioned, the maximum number of employees that
this building, they project to be $0, Nith 36 at one time. Obviously,
there's going to be tours available so Ne felt that, this Code requires 80.
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 7
We felt that was much more than would be needed at the site so we felt that
giving a variance allowing for 52 seemed appropriate for the.'
Batzlt: But have you looked at this plan for compliance with your
additional landscaping and things like that?
Aanenson: No. We've talked about the 52 al~ he m~wed me where he was
going to put them on. I haven't sat and physically tooked to make sure
that's where they are but we talked about it.
Wayne Perlenfein: The plan that you see here is the original plan the
Weather Service presented to you in it's early stages about a year, two
years ago. What we did is we classified the building to a research
facility and did...so once it was reclassified as an office building, and
it kind of falls between the area as to what you want to call it.
Aanenson: Your question is specifically, have I looked at that plan?
Batzli: Yeah.
Aanenson: No, but I told them where we wanted the parking over the phone
so that's.
Wayne Perlenfein: And my answer is yes because this is exactly what was
given to you a year or 2 ago and all we did was put it back on...
Batzli: But this plan comes after the one in our packet?
Aanenson: Correct.
Batzli: And there are other conditions which we're looking at and I'm
wondering if this has satisfied those additional conditions?
Aanenson: No. There's some other ones too. It might be appropriate now
just to go through some of those if you'd like.
Batzli: Well let me ask the architect or the applicant. Have you looked
at our staff report and is there any conditions in there that you don't
agree with at this time?
Wayne Perlenfein: I think that there's a, for lack of a better word, some
tweaking that has to go on. Has to happen. For example, the matter of how
you define the amount of landscaping by your rules and regulations. We ran
the numbers and it depends on, are you counting the development on site as
being site landscaping or is it a separate entity altogether? If it is,
we're overlandscaped so by your formula we don't need any landscaping. If
it is a separate issue by PUD regulations cannot be counted, then we're
under landscaped. That's an issue we want to work with staff on to make
them, we have to meet somewhere. $o that's why Ne have not endeavored to
relandscape the entire site after that submittal because we don't know to
what degree the PUD landscaping is going to count or. ~ualify.
Batzli: Okay. Thank you. Kate.
Planning Commission Heating
Hay 19, 1993 - Page $
Aanenson: Okay. Let me just talk about the concerns. Wayne talked about
the parking issue that we've already addressed. The other issue is the
landscaping. When we put the PUD together, it was a requirement that they
had to do perimeter landscaping and as part of the PUO do some unifying
themes, street lighting, streetscape along that interior street. In
addition, we put a requirement that each site would have to go through and
provide a separate landscaping plan. We feel on this site that additional
landscaping is required and we specifically mentioned again a lot of your
view off of Audubon ts not going to be seen because you're going to be
looking over the top but we felt, looking from the interior of the street,'
Lake Drive, that additional landscaping should be placed on the front of
that building. And we've recommended tree species on that. The other
issue is, we have the requirement for fencing of rooftop equipment. In
this circumstances we felt, it looked a little contrive to put the fence up
there so what we had recommended ie the hipped roof that's over the main
entrance, that that roof, a canopy, be carried over all 4 sides. It'd
probably be easiest just to refer to this. If you look at this drawing,
this element here with the fencing, t~e feel it'd be much more appropriate
to take this feature and put this on all 4 perspectives where the roof
equipment would be. To get the back view, where you're looking from
Audubon. Instead of turning your back to that side altogether...and leave
the fencing off and put the rooftop equipment...nice architectural feature
so the back has a better appearance.
Batzli: Have you taken a look at doing that?
Wayne Perlenfein: The foodchain for this type of building, I can't make
those changes without authorization from the contracting officer or my
employer, Chanhassen Venture. We support, from an architectural
perspective, landscaping the site. We support Kate's analysis of the front
tier look to the front and back. Ne supported the idea of embellishment
and redefining of this front in the areas of development, especially from
the back and we have passed that on. So in the process...based on your
request, will then go to my employer who will then pass it on to the
federal government...and I'll work with staff to achieve...
Batzli: The contracting officer is with which department?
Wayne Perlenfein= The contracting officer is the people.
Batzli: Which is?
Larry Predwick: The Special Engineering Project Office. It's an element
of the Department of Commerce. National Oceanic...
Batzli: So you're getting funds from DOD but we're dealing with civilian,
the Department of Commerce?
Larry Predwick: Cepo does the design work or oversees or monitors the
design work for the National Weather Service for all these agencies. The
tri agencies that are involved, yes.
Batzli: Okay. $o the contracting officer is civilian?
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 9
Larry Predwick: That's correct.
Wayne Perlenfein: Basically, just for general knowledge, the federal
constructs buildings two ways. They own where they come in with Big
Brother and do their thing or they go through a private developer. This is
going to be leased back to them. $o that's why we're getting involved...
But we support it and look forward to being able to make the changes
wherever it comes down to.
aanenson: So just to go along with that, the fact that it's leased is one
of the concerns that the staff had. Originally, when the Weather Service
approached the city is that we wanted a leased building so there will be
taxes paid on this property. It won't be a tax exempt property. Since it
is leased, there will be taxes paid on that. The other issue was, we
talked about the signs. The signs are in compliance. We'll have a
monument sign which is one of the requirements of the PUD adjacent to Lake
Drive. There was the Fire Marshal ~ut in specific conditions specifically
about the upper air inflation building and the fact that there is flammable
materials being stored there. That will have to be constructed per their
specifications. The other condition that we have on here is that around
the bottom of the radar tower for security reasons they do require fencing
around there. Again, more than likely you won't be able to see that
fencing because of the topography but. we do want that. There is a walking
trail along there. We do want that to be a green vinyl type fencing.
Other than that, we feel that' the type, the construction of the building
being all brick. The materials as shown are consistent with the PUD and we
feel it's an attractive building. It will be attractive from the lakeside.
Again, you're not going to see much of it from the Audubon Road view.
Other than that we would recommend approval of the site plan with the
conditions as amended as we've given you. The 15 conditions. We'd
recommend approval.
8atzli: Okay. This is a public hearing. If there's anyone else that
would like to address the Commission, I ask that you come up to the
microphone and give us your name and address for the record. And we invite
your comments if you're here to ask questions or give us your comments
tonight. Is there a motion to close the public hearing?
Conrad moved, Scott seconded to clo~e the public hearing. All .voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was clo~ed.
Batzli: Ladd, I'm going to lead off with you b~t I want to ask one more
question that I forgot to ask of the applicant. And that is, the balloons
are hydrogen balloons, are they not?
Larry Predwick: The gas that we put in them is hydrogen, yes. The
hydrogen is stored in the typical metal cylinders that you find, for
example like a welding shop or anything like that. There's no bulk storage
of hydrogen. And the only amount to be'used would be whatever it would
take to fill a balloon. A few cubic yards of gas to fill a balloon
probably twice the size of that screen right there.
Batzli: So that's stored indoors though?
Planning Commission Meeting
May i9, 1993- Page 10
Larry Predwick: It's stored indoors. It's stored in a specially
constructed facility to protect it from any risk of.
Aanenson: It's stored in this part of the building. Yeah, and here's
where it showed how it's stored.
Wayne Perlenfein: They store 14 cylinders is all. There's very limited
storage. We've given a list of the flammable...
Larry Predwick: It meets National Fire Codes. VtrtualIy all over the
country.
Batzli: And you will have an emergency generator so you will be storing
either diesel or gasoline?
Larry Predwick: Yes.
Batzli: Okay. And where's that stored?
Wayne Perlenfein: It's in a separate building directly behind this
building, away from this...
Larry Predwick: It's right here. The radar has an emergency generator but
it's inside one of the shelters that comes along with the equipment. And
it's self contained and everything in the inside.
Wayne Perlenfein: Next to the, we call it the EGG storage building is
above ground...
Batzli: What kind of volume of diesel do you store there?
Larry Predwick: In the radar shelter there will be, about 250 gallons.
It's enough to get us by for about 3 or 4 days. And in this one, not here.
I'd say it's probably about a 500 or 600 gallon tank.. Just estimating
right now.
Batzli: Okay, Ladd.
Conrad: A few questions. Paul or Kate, who on the staff has signed off on
the health risk? It appears that there's not much but who is? I'm not
going to say it's good or bad or whatever but what person from staff has
read the 3 inch report and said everything's hunky dorey?
Krauss: Well none of us you know is technically competent to sign off on
anything. However we have, it's probably fair to say, skimmed the
documentation. When I first started talking to the Weather Service 4' years
ago, because that's 3 or 4 years ago when it first came up. I asked that
question back then and got a huge presentation on it. A couple volumes of
material. I've also had an opportunity to bounce it off of professional
planning associated...various issues. Ionizing and non-iontzin~ radiation
is one of them. They don't deal specifically with this use but near as I
can tell, the information was consistent with what I was reading. We're
taking the information at face value. We think it was very well put
Planning Commission HeeLing
Hay [9, [993 - Page ~1
together and assembled and we didn't see any glaring holes in it but again
we're not experts in that area.
Conrad: So who signs off and says that there is no health risk?
Krauss: There's no need for anybody to sign off on anything.
Conrad: But I Just.
Batzli: He's using signing off euphemistically.
Krauss: Well, if we're speaking in euphemisms, I mean you're talking about
what in our professional Judgment and good conscience would be acceptable.
Conrad: Well, you"re not a health care expert so I guess I wouldn't ask
you.
Krauss: No. We're certainly not competent to do that.
Conrad= They're presented a deal and I trust that some documentation's
been done and there isn't a risk. ! haven't read it and I just would like
somebody to say, yes. Based on looking at the conclusion, the residents
who are here, that there is not, in our perception.
Aanenson: There was a neighborhood meeting held April 28th.
Conrad.' And I'm sure the neighbors.
Aanenson: And at that meeting there were quite a few other experts,
including a doctor that provided much more detail, technical information.
We didn't have that here at this meeting. That's why we had a separate
neighborhood meeting. So ! think the comfort level of the technology was
increased during that meeting. At least it was for myself too. Going
through and explaining how this works and hazards and that sort of thing.
Larry Predwick: If I could add.something here. This is a document that is
prepared by Stanford Research Institute, which is an organization that is a
branch of Stanford University. And they were hired by the primary
contractors on this project to locate the most desireable sites to meet the
technical standards for siting this piece of equipment. And part of this
document is an environmental impact study and this is done for each and
every site. This one right here happens to be the one for the site off of,
I forgot the name of the road.
Aanenson: Audubon.
Larry Predwick: Audubon Road. And what it confirms is all of the other
studies that have been done is that the radiation level is significatly,
and to the tune of approximately 10,OOO times below the standard. The_
occupational standard set by the American National Standards Institute.
American National Standards Institute called ANSI. Established a level
which they felt was an acceptable level from an occupational risk point of
view. And what the study's in this particular document and the other one
that I brought with me, that's supported by just enormous amounts of
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993- Page 12
research, is that the radiation level, from this particular device, at
ground level, is 10,000 times belo~ that occupational standard established
by ANSI.
Mancino: What happens when you have other radiation coming from TV towers
or radio and you have them ail converging in the same place? Does that
happen?
Larry Predwick= Standing in this room rlght now there's electromagnetic
radiation coming from, if we put a radio receiver down here, we'd probably
pick up a dozen stations from Hinneapolis and who knows ho~ many from
surrounding communities. There's radiation from the atmosphere on a
continuous basis, produced either artificially or natural. Simple fact of
the matter is, this particular type of equipment right here produces what's
called non-ionizing radiation. Which mean~ then that the own net effect is
that if you were to receive radiation emitted by this device, the only
effect is it would heat up the subject in which, that's being radiated.
Maybe I can touch on this. This is how much radiation you would receive
in 6 minutes if you were in the middle of the summertime, under the
sunshine. 80 milowatts per square centimeter in that 6 minute period of
time. The ANS! standard is 5 for occupational safety. New microwave oven
is .0060 lO feet away from it. Cordless telephone .00027 and our's at 85
feet f~om the base of the antenna is .00023. So the point being ! guess
is, when you asked about is this, in relation to the standard that's been
set by the American National Standards Institute, is it is considerable to
the point of lO,O00 times below their standard in terms of occupational
safety.
Conrad: :I'm not trying to turn into an expert on this, because I have to
trust the experts but with those numbers, the only thing that I'm trying to
clarify is a resident may be there for 50 years and this is on 24 hours a
day. And that's the only impact that I'm trying to assess.
Larry Predwick'- But remember, the radar is not radiating 24 hours a day.
The radar is radiating, at the most, only 3 minutes collectively out of the
entire 24 hour period and 80~ of that time it's radiating up into the
atmosphere not even horizontally. The' lowest elevation angle at which the
radar can come to is a half degree above horizontal. It is physically
prohibited by a metal ring from going.below that. It physically cannot do
that. So when you say it's radiating.. Yes, it's radiating but it's
radiating less than 3 minutes out of the entire day. What it does is it
sends out a short pulse of energy for just a few microseconds. That's a
millionth of a second. The rest of that time it's sitting there listening
for that signal to come back.
Batzli= Have you, it sounds and ! don't kno~ if this is true or not. It
sounds like you've perhaps done these presentations to other cities that
have installed these types of radars.
Larry Predwick= We have one in Kansas City that's actually closer to a
residential area than the one here.
Batzli: And in those developments, have those communities brought in
experts to take a look at the findings and say?
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 13
Larry Predwick: Absolutely. Okay, and they were more than satisfied with
them. The City of Pleasantville, Missouri. Which is about 35 miles
southeast of downtown Kansas City.
Batzli: The City brought in someone?
Larry Predwick: The City reviewed these documents, yes. An~ for whatever
it's worth, that is a developing subdivision for which the developer has
indicated that there has been absolutely no impact on the development and
the sale of the property. As a matter of fact, .they've raised the price of
the property and it's still selling. And there have been none of the
residents in the area that have, and quite frankly it's going to be, it's
less landscaped than this particular site here will be.
Batzli: Okay, thank you. Ladd, you know there are EMI, RFI, to use
electro mechanical lingo, type experts in the Twin Cities. And clearly
they'd be able to look at that stuff and say, yeah. This stuff is accurate
or yeah, this is kind of what the power level would be. of a site like this.
I mean are you looking for an expert to be retained by the City for some
money and say, yeah. These studies are accurate. We're aware of them and
this is the fair scoop.
Conrad: It sounds like the problem is so minor. Yet on the other hand,
I'm not sure. And that's why I was asking staff if we had a health expert
or somebody that could look and just come to a bottom line conclusion and
say yeah. Based on what I've read. I don't want to say that it's, I
believe them. I have to believe right now that it's probably pretty safe
but I guess it is a risk.
Batzli: I worked at a company that built monitors for computers and you
know several times a month we'd get letters from people saying, is it safe
to sit in front of this monitor all day. And most of the studies say yes.
A couple of them come out and say no, and what do you do? N~ody knows
what the long term effect of some of this stuff is. They're still studying
it. And if you believe the power levels that they're talking about, then
it's awfully minimal compared to just walking around everyday. But you're
right. We could hire somebody to say, yes. These numbers are accurate.
You know, given the kind of power signal they're generating and their
modulation pulse with or whatever they're-doing there, you know they kick
out a pulse and then sit there and listen for however many microseconds.
And you know, is that what we're going to be looking for? Somebody that
can take a look at that.
Conrad: I don't know. I guess I was looking for a Public Safety Director
to read it or somebody that was on staff but, that just went through that,
not 300 pages but to reassure me.
Batzli: But they don't have anybody on staff that's going to be that much
of a.
Conrad: I'm interested in what everybody else has to say and again I don't
want to react. It just seems like it might be prudent to have somebody
take a look at that... The only other question I have is, the color of the
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 14
dome on the radar. The picture you passed around was white. [s that what
the color is?
Larry Predwick: There are actually 4 different possible colors that could
be used but white is the predominant co[or because I think the architect
maybe can confirm this. But by and large structures of that type are less
obtrusive with that kind of color against the baokground skies opposed for
example, there ts color that's green. The only places where we're using
that is in heavily forested areas that are usually conifers,
Conrad: So what's the color proposed for this site?
Wayne Perlenfein: it's white.
Conrad: It is white. Because?
Wayne Perlenfein: You will notice it less than the other colors.
Conrad: What are the other options besides green?
Larry Predwick: There's a tan and a green. I'm sorry, I should have said
there was 3, not 4.
Conrad: Jeff, what do you think about that in terms of standing out?
Farmakes: Well I usually like my radar towers... I had comments on that.
It would seem to me to be the same as any other water to.er.
Conrad: Well water towers usually stand up. They're atrocious colors
typicalIy and it's like we're trying to make them stand out and not blend
in.
Farmakes: Usually they take a horizon color that minimizes the view under
certain light. Obviously with all the different weather we have here,
you're going to, a light blue water tower is going to stick out on a gray
day. So it just depends on, I would agree that white would probably be the
minimum.
Batzli: Tan is, you've seen Tonka Bay's water tower? Isn't that the tan
one? I mean that thing Just looks terrible sitting there.
Conrad: Yeah. And the blue's.
Batzli: No offense Tonka Bay.
Larry Predwick: I should point out that we are somewhat limited in the
colors we can choose because of the pigments that are in paint can serve as
a reflector of the signal that's being transmitted by the. system so we do
have a Limitation and that's one of the reasons why we just have gone with
those three. In addition is the fact that the aesthetic of any other color
reaLLy we found, from an architectural point of view, don't pan out very
well.
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 15
Conrad: I've always wondered why gray was not a color that is used for
water colors. It's probably not pretty when you see it on a swatch book
but when you think of blending in and not being obtrusive, the gray seems
like it fades in. Why not?
Wayne Perlenfein: Psychologically it's a very drab color. After the
meeting we can discuss the psychology of colors if yc~d'd like.
Farmakes: You're supposed to stay indoors on a gray day.
8atzli: But with the new weather station we're not going to have any gray
days are we. Is that it? Okay, Matt.
Ledvina: Well ! took a look at the information that was provided, and I'm
not expert but !'m comfortable with the. level of' work. that's been done and
obviously they're establishing these sites all over the United States and'
I'm not saying Just because it's been done before that everything is known
but I feel they've obviously had to think this thing through very carefully
in terms of how many they have, whatever hundreds of this things around the
United States. So I guess I'm comfortable with the safety concerns that
may be out there. I was, there's one area that, well actually two areas
that I am concerned about and the first one being the grading plan for this
site. I took a look at the plan and I don't really understand the extent
of the grading. Essentially all 10 acres is graded and I calculate that,
there's 10 feet of soil that's removed from the entire 10 acres. So that's
about 200,000 cubic yards of soil. Rnd [ just, [ don't understand why
that's being done. ! understand that this 'is part of a larger PUD but it's
hard to put that amount of earthwork in perspective when you have Just this
small area here. So I don't know, maybe you could comment on that Dave.
Hempel: Sure. As you previously mentioned, this is only one of the lots
of the overall development. The developer is coming in for a site grading
plan, or permit, excuse me. At the May 24th City Council meeting. With
that I'm coordinating the grading on this site-as well as the remaining
portions of the site. With this particular phase, there is generating
quite a bit of excess material. Proposing to stockpile the excess material
in two locations. One location would be directly southwest of this. I 'do
have an overhead I could put up there.
Ledvina: Are the grades approved for Lake Drive West?
Haspel: That's correct.
Ledvina: Rte they in a conceptual stage or are they in?
Hempel: ...stage at this point. We have already installed a trunk
watermain through the proposed alignment of Lake Drive West so we.
Ledvina: Is that what's happening out there right now?
Hempel: That's correct. The dark shaded area below the building site is a
proposed stockpile area proposed by the developer of than Business Center.
I've put a limitation of height of 12 feet on that stockpile area with
slopes 3:1 off of it. That material will be reused with the second phase
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 16
of the development, as you continue to the west, the site does drop off and
needs to be filled and build up the pads for the ~uture lots. They still
anticipate though that there will be excess, material needed to be hauled
off the site once the overall, both phases are completed.
Ledvina: And I guess that grading plan gets to another question. I don't
know what the value of standing on Audubon Road is and ~eeing the-top of
this building. I don't see the value in that. You know, and especially
when we're taking lO feet of soil off of the site you kno~ overall. I'm
also concerned about how the grades match in on the west side of the
property. Now that's not part of the PUD, am I right?
Hempel: That's outside of the first phase of development.
Ledvina: Okay. Would that area be graded in even to match it because
there's roughly a lO foot drop on, a lO foot bank.
Hempel= On the preliminary grading plan for the whole development they do
kind of show a lot benching approach. It will not be level. It will be
benched so you will have a significant drop for the lots.
Aanenson: Matt, I think some of the confusion is, we're doing the grading
plan for the Chan Business Center, Phase i. And then this grading plan is,
if I understand what your question is, but then there's this grading plan
specifically. I think it'd be helpful if David explained the limits of,
maybe show on here the limits of the grading'for Phase 1 of the, because
they have to put the road in. Lake Drive East so ! think maybe that'd be
helpful.
Ledvina: Lake Drive West?
Aanenson: Excuse me, Lake Drive West. Yes.
Hempel: The first phase of...The t~o stockpile areas I had mentioned, one
was located in this area here. The other small area down here. It's
possible if they have additional users of this property coming up here in
the near future this summer, that they may expand the grading limits
further out in this area as they start working on the cul-de-sac.
Aanenson: We do know the Jehovah Witness will probably be coming through
this summer so that's this corner piece up in here so there may be
additional grading. And they'll have access. That's the only one we've
allowed access onto Audubon so they won't have to grade that whole site.
Ledvina: Could I just stop you? Do we have an overall grading plan for
this development?
Hempel: We have a preliminary grading plan for the overall development,
yes.
Aanenson:
Ledv ina:
We approved with the Chan Business Center, yes.
And that's already been approved?
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993- Page 17
Aanenson: The preliminary one. That's what Dave's saying. This final one
that he's drawing for you right now, that's going to the council on Monday
night.
Ledvina: And then the other area that I'm'concerned with relates to the
landscaping plan. Given the grading plan that we see here, the existing
trees that the developer shows are totally removed from the site. There's
no possible way of saving one of those trees.
Aanenson: The trees along the back fence line? Toward Bluff Creek
Estates?
Ledvi na: Right·
Aanenson: We raised that as an issue that we'd like to see those
preserved ·
Ledvina: This would be to the south then?
Aanenson: Yeah. Straight south along, actually they're in this area right
in here. The tree line back in here.
Krauss: The trees follow the old fence line from the...
Ledvlna: And those trees will be saved?
Aanenson: We'd like to see if we can work around them.
Hempel: We believe the grades can be adjusted to save the stand of trees
along that fence line property.
Ledvlna: And well I guess just in general, I'm concerned about the
landscaping plan. Essentially we really don't have anything and.
Aanenson: Well, they Just submitted what was required under the'PUD, which
we'd already seen. We wanted an additional site plan for this.
Ledv ina:
PUD?
So what we have in this-set of plans is what's required under the
Aanenson: What the, yeah for the perimeter. What Ryan submitted as part
of the PUD requirements.
Ledvina: Okay.
Wayne Perlenfein: If I could clarify that. What we had submitted is our
interpretation of how you guys...putting landscaping on the site. If we
are in error, we will increase it. Or if by...
Krauss: Yeah, I think that's the bottom line here. There's actually two
sets of landscaping. The one we thought the developer was...The other one
was on a site by site basis and...
Planning Commission Meeting
May ~9, ~993 - Page ~8
Batzli: Well in your mind, should the perimeter landscaping count towards
partial satisfaction of what they have to install?
Krauss: No, it does not and in fact the...
Batzll: Okay. Matt, the outcome of this grading. You know, Just grade
the thing flat. Remove lO feet of dirt. [s there something that you think
should be done rather than doing it that way?
Ledvina: Well yeah. ! really think that the landform should be saved as
much as possible here. We're taking, granted it's an open area but we
generally like to see development that's sensitive to the existing contours
and it seems to make sense. We don't like to have our landscape totally
changed as development comes in. And also from the developer, I don't see
the value in moving all this dirt. Obviously if there's additional phases
down the road, maybe that can be justified but it's, as ! look at this as a
single lot development, and Z didn't really have a good handle as to what,
you know how it fits into the grand scheme of things but ! Just don't care
for the way it's laid out. I think there should be less grading.
Wayne Perlenfein= ...the grade elevation of the proposed buildtng...more
than willing to work with staff to accomplish that.
Ledvina: Well I think that would be an important start. There's all kinds
of problems with the way I see the neighboring property lines and
essentially you're digging this thing do~n into this hole and of course to
the north and east, this will open up but still. Just it doesn't look
right to me.
Batz11: Kate, is that current map up there oriented with north up? Before
you just take it down.
Aanenson: I've got a grading one that will give you contours. I think
there's a lot of history that we should talk about before we talk about
changing the grade. I was going to change the contours. This would be
south and this is the railroad tracks. Audubon Road... As you recall, we
put this all slopes towards this Outlet A, which we preserved. That the
City's going to purchase. We changed the flood plain to put in a NURP pond
which we're draining down towards to pretreat the water before it goes into
the flood plain. When we looked at this top initially we knew this would
be one office building, there may be another oriented towards Audubon Road
whore there's higher visibility but we envisioned this park as an
industrial park. When this user is an office use and it's a beautiful
building, it certainly would make sense to look at this. But'if it were an
industrial type building, which a lot of these uses are going to be. An
industrial with an office component, I'm not sure, with maybe larger
spenser of walls, I'm not sure we'd want to be seeing quite that much of
the building. So it's kind of user issue with that too. And raising what
it does to the rest of the visibility. Some of the other sites to the
residents to the south. As far as some of the other utility issues, Dave
maybe can speak to some of those.
Hempel: It was my suggestion in the staff report to raise it up 4 feet or
so just to serve as a sanitary sewer for' Audubon Road instead of waiting
Planning Commission Meeting
Hay 19, 1993- Page 19
for the interior improvements to be done. And in conversations with the
civil engineer, he had some concern with the driveway grade out to the
proposed street of Lake Drive West. They were getting up ¢los® to 7% and
there wili be an occasional tractor trailer entering and exiting the site
and he had some concerns with the driveway grade if we do raise the
building so. The intent now is to bring sanitary sewer in from the west to
be able to serve this building so my concern ! guess was raising the
building has been resolved essentially. Rs far as the grades go out the~e.
I think they are counting on this fill material for future use. I'm not
saying they can't go back to the dra~ing board' because this isn't cast in
stone yet to adjust othe~ grades out there to make up the less cutting.
Ledvina: Well if there's less cutting here, there will be less filling on
another site and maybe that's...that way. I don't know. I guess when I
see lO acres totally graded, it makes me nervous. But again, I didn't have
the perspective of the whole development in that, frankly that happened
before my time so I'm not understanding what all happened back then. $o I
-guess in general I would support an amendment that would raise the grade of
the building let's say 6 feet. I think that's a start. ~nd I think the
soil borings can be adjusted down the road. When the other parcels are
developed.
Batzli: What do you think of staff's argument that we might not want to
look at the building. I mean we're trying to save'landform but maybe
there's a corresponding viewpoint of the neighbors next door that if they
can be dug down into a hollow, great.
Ledvina: Well, I don't know. I'd rather not look at a roof if I was
driving by. I'd rather see the building that's there, and this is an
attractive building.
Wayne Perlenfein: You're going to be hard pressed to see the roof. You're
ZOO feet away. You have to look through the development of a .parkway, bike
trail. You're 15 feet below...and now you want to bring it up to the
roof...
Batzli: We don't have an elevation view from the road do we?
~anenson: Yes we do.
Batzli: Ask and we got tr.
Aanenson: This one, you'll have to put it in perspective. We did this
during the, when we put the Chan Business Center together. This would be
Audubon Road here and this is showing a...kind of give you an idea.
Batzli: This is going to be a one story building?
Aanenson: Yes. So you'd be below that.
Ledvina: What's the distance between the road and the building?
Batzli: In our case Kate. Not in that drawing.
Planning Commission Meeting
May !9, 1993 - Page 20
Aanenson= Oh from this one? Oh, it's 100 feet.
Batzli: How far away from the road is this building?
Aanenson'- I have it in the report here, hang on.
Hempel: It must be about 440 approximately.
Aanenson: Yeah. 300 plus I think is what.
Batz I i: 0 kay.
Ledvina: No further comments.
Batzli: Okay, Joe.
Scott: So what I'm hearing as far as the, Dave you can help me out here.
The grades for the street out in front has already been set. If the
building is moved up 4 feet, that's where you get the 7~ grade from the
street, for the semi's and all that kind of stuff.'
Hempel: That's correct.
Scott: I understand that. We're 400 feet from Audubon. But in my
mind I'm thinking of the nexrad tower is 130 scw~e feet off the ground. Was
there any objection or questions or so forth by the residents in the area,
any questions about that particular visual impact?
Aanenson: There was some and we put a picture in there showing what it
would be in relation to a water tower. Give you scale and Dave had told me
that's a stmilar height to some of the water towers we have in the city.
There was a concern of whether or not it would be lit, and it's my
understanding that there's just a small red light on the top.
Scott: There's a light but there's no beacon.
Aanenson: Right.
Larry Predwick: That may not even be required on this particular tower
because the only requirements are when they're at least 200 feet or higher.
Scott: Okay, that's an FAA requirement.
Larry Predwick: That's correct. Any tower that's over 200 feet are
required to be lit. In this particular case this will not be anywhere near
air space. Controlled air space. We probably will not have any
requirement to light it.
Scott: The only additional comment I'd like to make is, I contacted a
person from Crossroads Medical Center who had a background with the Armed
Services and he had provided me with a huge stack of, you guy's probably
know what the acronym NIOSH is. What is that? NIOSH. I think there's a
National Institute of Safety something or other. But anyway.
Planning Commission Meeting
May i9, i993 - Page 21
Larry Predwick: Oh, ANSI.
Scott: No, it wasn't ANSI. But anyway, some reports that I had read
through and it looked like the Kansas City facility was studied and a
couple of other ones and it was, the findings were the same. The radiation
levels were miniscule and so forth, so I mean personally I don't have a
problem with that. And I really appreciated your comments on the angle of
the beam with regard to the horizon. That was very, very helpful and I
appreciated your efforts in' simplifying this so we could at least get a
grasp of it. z support the project. I don't have any further comments.
Batzli: Okay, thank you. Jeff.
Farmakes: Well first of all, I think I'd like to say that in this world of
change, it's nice to know that the government can still come up with an
acronym for an unbelieveable amount of things. I agree with Ladd to start
out with. I think it would be prudent for the city at least to look into
or follow up where this radar is and in reading the study, or the
information that we have here, it says the general public. Then it
clarifies or quantifies it by saying that, in a few instances some people
have problems with it. What are those problems? People get radio
reception in their fillings or I mean, what is it? It doesn't clarify what
those problems are. Is there a response to that?
Larry Predwick: Are you directing the question to us?
Farmakes: Yes.
Larry Predwick: I think maybe some of this may be due to the fact that
there's been a lot of media attention to some of the aspects of electro
magnetic radiation along high voltage power lines and things like that
this. There's been a fair amount of publicity related to that. And I
think that things have to be put into perspective. This type of system and
the radiation that it emits is entirely different. For example, labeling
the...power line is miles so that the bioeffects are, in other words the
entire area is placed within the effect of that wave. We're talking here
about a wavelength of lO centimeters. Entirely different. We're talking,
there's no way to compare the two in terms of making an analysis between
the effects of let's say, what you may have seen in a lot of unreferreed
science magazines, if you will. As opposed to the type of equipment that
we're operating here. A lot of these type of systems operate in a
continuous radar operating mode. Our radiating mode. Microwave towers for
example that transmit data communications on a continuous basis. Are in a
continuously operating transmit mode. This one is not. It's only
operating in a transmit mode ieee than 3 minutes a day and most of that
time it's looking up in the air.
Farmakes: So there is no substantiated complaints anywhere where this
radar currently operates?
Larry Predwick: There is absolutely no evidence to suggest or to support a
linking between any health hazard with this type of equipment.
Planning Commission Meeting
May [9, [993 - Page 22
Farmakes= Irregardless ! am going to disqualify myself. ! don't feel that
my background qualifies me in any way, shape or form to digest this on a
medical basis. On the face of it, it doesn't seem like it's a problem at
all. They've brought in information and Stanford certainly is a well known
University but ! feel uncomfortable that if ! nod on this thing, yes. It's
not a health hazard and I'm not qualified to say that. I don't know
whether or not the City wants to pursue getting a second opinion of that.
Either going to the University or any of other health people but it seems
to me it couldn't hurt. Although it may cost ua a few dollars. I agree on
the landscaping. It could be more, particularly to the front view of the
building. Break it up a bit more. The other question I have is, are there
any phased additions to this building in the future? These [O acres.
Wayne Perlenfein: No.
Farmakes: Okay. so what we see is what we get here in the future.
Wayne Perlenfein: Absolutely.
Farmakes: I like the fact that it fits tn, as staff has said with the
openness. It seems like, in relationship to the amount of land that it
has, to the amount of building and impervious surface, it should be a nice
addition to Chanhassen. And I'm Just curious. When you refer to your
location, you don't refer to it as Chanhassen. You refer to it as
Minneapolis-St. Paul. Is that, do we get a credit anywhere if this
building goes up?
Larry Predwick: Well ail the documents say Chanhassen on them. This
office is serving the Minneapolis metropolitan area. O'r the Twin Cities.
That comes from being a Kansas Citian and not knowing the local...
Batzli: So when the local weather reports talk about having received a
forecast from the National Weather Service, will they talk about it being
in Chanhassen.
Larry Predwick: Well, in Kansas City they refer to the National Weather
Service office in Pleasant Hill.
Farmakes: Can we then add Beautiful Chanhassen...Those two issues that I
discussed are really the only two that I saw here of any concern. Staff
touched upon the roofline and I'm not going to talk about that further. As
far as that equipment, screening and so on. It would seem to me that based
on City Council reactions to some of the landscaping issues, we should
probably pursue that at least in front of the building where it seems more
opened up. And pursue that a little bit better but again, I don't see that
as being a big problem here.
Batzli: Okay, thank you. Nancy.
Mancino: My only new comments would be, there are two towers. The ton
tower and the NLHRSC tower. What are those?
Larry Predwick: The ones that are identified as a ton tower is only a
small little tower that you might find standing next to a lot of houses
Planning Commission Meeting
May 1~, ~3 - Page 23
with TV antennas stuck on. Really all we're using that for is to get an
anomometer and wind vane up above ground level sensing local wind
conditions.
Mancino: So that's on the ground?
Larry Predwick= The base of the tower is only, it's like about 12 inches
on it's side. And normally they're set in Just a concrete base and they
stick up above the ground about 20-25 feet. Sust to get local atmospheric
conditions at that particular site. The other one, there's a picture
floating around here someplace that shows the other equipment that's there
and that's a small little satellite receiving antenna. Here's a picture of
it, if you want to pass that around. Mould it be a fair thing to say that
it's about my height?
Mancino: And these would be installed right away with the building?
Larry Predwick: Yes, they're part of the operation.
Mancino: Okay. I have no other questions. My Comment about the public
safety issue is that I don't know enough. I'm not qualified to talk about
the safety concerns. I always like to have. a third party, non-interested
expert who will go over the material and give an opinion. $o I would be in
favor of doing that. Landscaping, I also agree that we should do an
individual site landscaping plan in conjunction, in addition with the PUD
plan. That's it.
Batzli: Okay, thank you. I guess my questions have all been answered
through the meeting here. Just to put in my two cents worth as far as some
of the outstanding issues. ! would like to see the change made to the roof
element, as you suggest. And [ don't know what we do if the contracting
officer comes back and says no, there's no money in the project for that.
That's not an acceptable change but that's something I guess we cross.
Aanenson= Then the project doesn't get approved.
Batzli-' Landscaping, [ think there needs to be additional landscaping.
think we should work with the applicant. Maybe, in view of saving the
trees on the southern part, or wherever that stand of trees is and the
general PUD landscaping. I think we look at that' reasonably. ! think the
parking lot issue is fine to give them the variance. I don't see why we
need to make them have 80 spots. It's not truly a variance, is that what
you were saying?
Aanenson: Well it's a waiver...I mentioned that you can give a waiver for
proof of parking so. Technically I guess we should call it a waiver.
Batzli: The color of the bricks, you did get in the new revised one. Is
that right?
Aanenson= Yes. Number 14.
Batzli: Okay. The hydrogen storage and those types of issues are included
in the Fire Marshal memo, right?
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 199~ - Page 24
~anenson= Correct.
Batzli: I think it will be an asset to Chanhassen. It's low intensity
use. I think it's a good use for this type of area in Chanhassen. I'd
aisc recommend that we get an expert, someone like Vern Albertson at
the University of Minnesota who's the assistant head of the electrical
engineering department. Someone like that Nbc can come in and say, yeah.
These levels are accurate and they're well below levels, you know. National
levels is I think all we need. There are other consultants in the Twin
Cities as well that do that exact thing. But someone like Vern Albertson.
He's, obviously at the University of Hinnesota, he's about as neutral as we
can get. Rs far as the elevat£on of the building, I wouldn't be adverse to
having staff work with the architect to look at that but I'm concerned that
if we raise this, we end up raising the other buildings and that's
something we don't want to do. And so I"m not sure what. we do about that.
Do you have any thoughts on that Paul? I mean is this going to be a big
deal if we start raising the elevation of all the other lots in this PUD?
Krauss: I think it's fair to say nothing is as simple as it might seem.
You're dealing with a site that has to balance and it's something that we
can go back and look at. We'll try to work towards that. We understand
where you'd like to go but at the same time we'd like the ability to make a
recommendation to City Council. based on what, we can certainly move in that
direction. That it be looked at.
Batzli: Okay. Those were my comments. Is there a motion?
Conrad: Yes. I would make a motion that Planning Commission recommend
approval of Site Plan #93-4 for the National Weather Service subject to the
conditions listed in the staff report ! thru 15 with'two additional
conditions. Number 16. Staff to review the health issue and seek out a
third party opinion. Condition number 17. Staff to review the impact of
elevating the building site by 6 feet and report the pros and cons to the
City Council·
Batzli: Is there a second?
Mancino: Second.
Conrad moved, ~lancino seconded that the Planning Commutation recoa~end
approval of Site Plan ~93-4 for the National Weather Service subject to the
followt~ condition:
1. The final plat of CBC-Phase I shall be recorded with Carver County.
2. Detailed storm drainage calculations for a 10 year storm event shall
be submitted to the City for review and approval. Depending on the
storm sewer calculations, the City may require additional catch basins
and/or pipe.
·
A revised site grading plan incorporating the final approved grading
plan for CBC-Phase I, including the trail location through the site,
shall be resubmitted to the City for review and approval.
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993- Page 2S
4. The proposed site grading along the south property line shall be
revised to save the existing stand of trees.
·
All landscaping materials, i.e. trees and shrubs, shall be planted
outside the proposed street right-of-way and not over any public
utility lines, i.e. sanitary sewer lines and watermains.
·
The site plan shall be amended to show the additional right-of-way and
drainage and utility easements that will be conveyed to the City with
the final plat of CBC-Phase I (17 feet-of right-of-way and 25 feet of
drainage and utility easement)·
7. The property will be responsible for.its share of the pending Upper
Bluff Creek Trunk Sanitary Sewer and Water Improvement costs (Project
No. 91-17A).
·
Grading and site preparation for the Weather Service will Only be
allowed after the underlying PUD and development contract has been
recorded. Surety will be in place for the grading of both sites.
·
The landscaping between Lake Drive and the NWS building should be a
combination of deciduous and conifer trees, with some ornamental
placed in an informal setting. Additional landscaping for the buffer
strips should be deciduous trees including more Sugar Maples, Lindens,
Marshall Ash and conifers should include more Austrian Pines and
Spruces.
lO. Signs require a separate permit and shall be consistent as shown on
the site plan dated April 16, 1993.
Compliance with the conditions as stated in the memo from the Fire
Marshal dated May 12, 1993.
i2. Compliance with the conditions in the memo from the Building Official
dated May lO, 1993.
13.
The hipped roof entrance canopy shown over the main entrance shall be
placed over the two front entrances. In addition, two hipped canopies
shall be placed on the rear of the building to provide screening for
the roof top equipment.
14. Fencing around the Nexrad Radar shall be green vinyl. The color of
the brick on all of the buildings shall be brown and tan.
15.
A waiv®r to the parking standards shall be given; 52 parking stalls
shall be provided based on the maximum number of employees as 50 with
36 generally working at one time· If the number of employees changes,
the parking will be re-evaluated and more parking may be required.
16. Staff shall revie~ the health issue and ~eek out a third party
opinion.
Planning Commission Heeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 26
17. Staff shall review the lapact of elevatlng the building mite by 6 feet
and report the pro~ and cone to the City Council.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
8atzli: When does this go to City Council?
Aanenson: It will be on June 14th. Based on the conditions. They had
wanted to get on the first one in June. The next one in May but based on
the conditions, we need additional time.
PUBLIC HEARIN6:
U.S, EST FOR A SITE PLaiN REVIEW FOR ~ 16' X 19' ~ITI~ TO ~ EXISTI~
CITY
DE~L~ENT
N~TH ~ HZG~Y ~O~.
(Matt Ledvina did not take part in' discussion or voting on this issue due
to a conflict of interest.)
Paul Krauss presented the staff report on this item.
Batzli: But the City itself, I mean this is an addition to a city
structure but the city won't own it. It will be.
Krauss: No, we do o~n the building. We own the property. It's being
1 eased.
Batzli: Okay. Does the applicant wish to address the Commission at ail?
You're fully invited to if you'd like to do so.
(The applicant made a comment from the audience which was not heard on the
tape. )
Batzli: Have you taken a look at our staff report. There's several
conditions. Now do these conditions, since we own the building, apply to
us or does it apply to U.S. West as the applicant?
Krauss: Well as I understand it, I believe U.S. West is going to be making
the improvements.
Hempel: I believe they're making the improvements.
(The applicant made another comment which was not heard.)
Batzli: We have in, as one of our condition~, a pitched roof shall be used
as shown in Scheme 8.
Applicant: ...the existing building has a flat roof. In Scheme A, they're
adding on to the existing building with a flat roof- B and C is adding
onto the existing building and putting a pitched roof over the Nhole thing.
Planning Commission Meeting
Hay [9, [993 - Page 27
Batzli: Right, and that's the one we're looking at tonight, is the pitched
roof. Okay. Is there any other public comment? Is there a motion to
close the public hearing?
Scott moved, Manctno seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing ~as closed.
Mancino: I agree 100~ with the staff recommendations.
Scott: Let's see, has the annual lease payment amount been determined?
Krauss: I don't believe it has. That's why it was left blank.
Applicant: We haven't determined the lease payment yet and we've been
discussing...
Scott: Okay. No further comments.
Batzli: So the lease was drawn up by our attorneys?
Applicant: No. The least is a lease from U.S. West given to the City
Attorney for review...
8atzl i: Okay. Ladd.
Conrad: Nothing.
Batzli: My only question is, if they're doing improvements on a building
owned by us, and somehow they default half way through. Not that U.S. West
is going to but let's hypothetically say that they lose interest in the
project and we have a half finished building. Then what do we do?
Krauss: That's a question for our attorney to answer in the contractual
arrangements we have with them. Probably require some posting of letter of
credits to insure completion.
8atzli: Yeah, see [ would assume that since they're altering a building
owned by the City, that something would be in there that guarantees that
they finish it, one way or another. And I don't know how ~e do that but it
would seem to me that that would be a prudent thing to say somewhere in one
of the conditions that either, I don't know if they post a bond or what
they do.
Applicant: One of the things we're doing is, the technology is changing so
much right now...going from copper feeders to fiberoptics and what that's
going to do basically in servicing the Chanhassen area, is going to...
Krauss'- I'm certain we can have your concern addressed.
Batzli:
Hempel:
Yeah. The sodding is between the building and the c~riveway?
:
That's correct.
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 28
Batzli= But you're going to bring in a cable into the building. [s that
going to be a regular trencher that's bringing that in with or is it going
to be one where.
Applicant: It will be conduit in the ground. It will be down 15 inches
into the ground. It will be a 4 inch conduit.
Batzli: Are you going to be laying it, slit laying it o~ is there where
you dig it up and you lay it in and then you backfill over it?
Applicant: I'm not certain but normally when Ne put conduit down, Ne have
to dig...but I'm not a cable expert. Normally if you bury...Is your
concern?
Batzli: Just the resodding of that area rather than reseeding.
Krauss: Yeah, you should include restoration of any disturbed area.
Batzli: But the condition here that it's just reseeded rather than sodded.
And if they're going to be digging up a yard wide trench, I'd rather see
them resod it. Those were the t~o items ! had. Does someone have a
motion, unless there's other discussion?
Scott: ! move that the Planning Commission approve Site Plan Review #93-3
as shown on the site plan received ~pril 19, 1993 subJect..to the existing
conditions numbered 1 thru 5.
Batzli: Is there a second?
Mancino-' Second.
Batzli: Okay. Any discussion?
Conrad= Nere your comments incorporated in 3oe's motion?
Batzli: No, they really weren't. I think if you added after the word,
Best Management Practice Handbook, kind of a comma. Except that any
trenching performed shall be resodded. That would take care of one of
them.
Krauss: ! had written in for myself, if ! could suggest a condition 6.
That the City Attorney insure that provisions exist to guarantee U.S. West
will complete the improvements.
8atzli: Okay. That takes care of my other one.
Scott: I agree.
Batzli: Who seconded the motion?
Mancino: I did. ! second that.
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, i993 - Page 29
Scott moved, Mancino seconded that the Planning Commiuion recommend
approval of 51ts Plan Revle~ #93-3 as sho#n on the site plan received ~pril
19, 1993, subject to the following condition~:
Site restoration shall include sodding between the building and
driveway and one ~oil of sod adjacent to the outside edge of the new
driveway surface. The remaining disturbed areas may be reseeded and
mulched in accordance with the Ctty,s Best Management Practice
Handbook, except for any trenching performed shall be e¢~. Ten
coniferous trees shall be added to the w®st of the proposed addition.
The most northerly proposed tree shall be moved further to the west.
The applicant shall consult with B~W while preparing their landscpaing
plan so that planting can be coordinated with the city's landscaping
plans.
2. Extension of sewer and water service to the proposed building will be
the responsibility of the applicant. In addition, the applicant shall
pay the appropriate utility hook-up and connection Gees ($5,850.00) at
the time of issuance of building permit·
3. Erosion control fence (Type I) shall be in. tailed along the south
perimeter of the site improvements.
·
The applicant shall install a 12 foot wide bituminous driveway turn
around per the attached detail in conjunction with the overall site
improvements.
5. A pitched roof shall be used as shown in Scheme B on the site plan
dated April 19, 1993.
6. That the City Attorney in~ure provisions exist to guarantee that U.S.
West will complete the improvement, m.
All voted in favor, except for Matt Ledvina who did not vote, and the
motion carried.
Batzli: And this goes to City Council when?
Krauss: The same date. 14th of June.
Batzlt: Very good. Thank you for coming in.
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 30
Batzli: Next on our agenda, we have an item of new business that I'm going
to kind of insert via Judicial fiat or something like that. Matt, can you
tell me if you gave drafting a letter to the HRA a shot?
Ledvina: I've ~tarted it and I will finish that hopefully this week and
send it out to all of you for your review and hopefully input. And
possibly by the next HRA meeting, which would be in about a month.
Batzli: Because tomorrow they are, HRA's meeting tomorrow or is it next
week on Thursday? And one of the items wiii be an update on the center.
Community center. So I think the quicker, you know I don't mean to push
you but if we do it, we should do it right away so our voice counts.
Ledvina: Right, I understand. And Z will be at the meeting tomorrow and
I'ii let them know that we're going to be sending them a letter regarding
some of our thoughts on the community center.
8atzii: Just so that everybody recaiIs. Matt volunteered to draft a
letter and send it around to all of us for our review, which synthesized
our discussion of the community center that we had at our last meeting and
gave some recommendation and direction.
Mancino: Which it sounds like they're now calling the recreation center.
Krauss: Well, if I could add. You know the name seems to change week by
week. But one of the things we discussed at a staff meeting late last week
Nas how best, what's the best way of carrying this thing forward. How do
we get more of a consensus of opinion? How do we get, I think Jeff's
periodically brought up the concern for, you know what is.the perceived
need for different things. How do Ne bring the community in and I'm pretty
sure it's going to be announced tomorrow but we've pretty much agreed that
what we'd like to do is develop a professional brochure that outlines the
scope of the project. What could, be in it. What it might coat and how
that might be done. Where it might go and do that in coordination with
retaining a firm like Professional Decisions. PDI. They're a survey firm
that virtually every community that has done a community center has used to
not only gardner support but gain a better understanding of what's needed
and what's not needed. So I think that we're moving forward on that front
almost as much, if not more than spitting out additional plans.
~PPROV~L OF MINUTES: Chairman Batzli noted the Minutes of the Planning
Commission meeting dated May 5, 1993 as presented.
CITY COUNCIL U~T~:
Krauss: Well I've got a few things for you in this packet and I've started
to put in an adminstrative attachment. Sort of the same way we do for City
Council so you can be kept posted on a variety of things. Briefly the City
Council did approve Lake Susan Hills 9th and they were quite complimentary
I thought to the work done by yourselves and Jo Ann and I think it was
deserved. We got a pretty dandy project out of that one. We have a
project coming in in the near future. You'll see a subdivision on Frontier
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 31
Trail for Forcier. This was a site that was identified i-n our SWMP program
as being pretty important for water quality improvements. We have a large
area of the area north of downtown Chanhassen that just drains over a hill
and through a ravine and tears out considerable parts of the ravine and
dumps it into Lotus Lake. When we started talking to a developer on this,
Dave and I recognized that we had an opportunity to get a lot of bang for
the buck. In working with the developer and in working to resolve the
SWMP issues at the same time. The long and the short of it is, a project
that Bonestroo was estimating would cost between $100,000.00 to $150,000.00
we think we're going to be able to get it done, achieve probably
of what we need to have done in that area for something on the order of
$30,000.00 with the City's share being about 20. So I think it's a great
example of the return that you can expect for the investment in the SWMP
program. Not only are we going to be offering to mediate a very
significant problem for Lotus Lake, but we're doing it for a third to a
quarter of the money that we thought it should have cost had we done the
project independent of having a plan. In terms of some other things that
are in your packet. I guess Todd threw in a memo from HGR...try to explain
that. ! don't know...There's some real interesting dialogue that I've
started with the Watershed District, Riley-Purgatory. It's rather
involved. ! guess if any of you are Weal interested in that, I'd be happy
to sit down and talk to you about it but the Watershed District, in our
opinion, the relationship with the Watershed District has not been a real
wholesome or successful one of late. Their responsibilities seem quite
redundant. We have expertise that they haven't been employing. We have
people out in the field checking developments. We're going to have a
completed plan that we meets all kinds of new State standards that their'$
does not. And frankly we haven't been getting good communication back from
them on a lot of things. So ! put together a letter that laid out all the
issues and I asked them to respond back and thus far ! haven't heard. It
probably applies to all our watershed districts but most of our interaction
in most of the city is with Riley-Purgatory. So again, if any of you want
additional details on that, please feel free to give me a call and I'll
explain it to you in detail.
Batzli: Was Mr. Ftskness not on our original SWMP committee or he had
started originally attended those meetings?-
Krauss= Conrad was never on it. I notified him and Bob Obermeyer, the
District Engineer, of all of our meetings. Conrad's a resident of the city
and he has attended, I don't know, about a third of the meetings. We did
ask that they send their engineer so that we Could dialogue with him and
coordinate with him and the Watershed District Board refused to do so.
They said it would cost money and they didn't feel like spending it.
Conrad: I think that's a good move on their part.
Krauss: Had some real good news today. Did I ever show you the model?
Batzli: Of the walkway?
Ledvina: The pedestrian bridge?
Krauss: Yeah.
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, i993 - Page 32
Ledvina= I've got it right here. I was going to try to scoop you on that
but, the ISTEA enhancement recommendations that the City of Chanhassen was,
their project is recommended for funding through the State of Minnesota.
Krauss: We Just heard we got a grant for $280,000.'00.
Batzli: That's for the walkway?
Krauss: For the pedestrian overpass. Now it's a project that we designed
to have a 30~ city role. ! mean this was a cost sharing project. The
total cost on it is estimated to be about $400,000.00. That included some
land acquisition. But of course we wanted something more than Just the
prefab bridge. We wanted something that was architecturally significant.
So we were pretty pleased with that. I mean there was.
Mancino: That's great n~ws.
Krauss: They had $77 million of requests for $10 million worth of funds.
And near as we could tell, MnDot ran the program and MnDot kept a line
share of the money for their own projects but of the independent
communities that were funded, we got probably one of the largest
allocations.
Ledvina: We picked the right type of project because there were 28.
Scott: Yeah, the intermotal.
Aanenson= We put it in two categories to make sure.
Scott: I thought maybe you'd get awarded twice then.
Ledvina: 28 of the 34 projects that were recommended related to bicycle
and pedestrian type uses.
Batzli: On an intermotal note, what happened to our, or what's happening
to our bridge for Highway 5 over Bluff Creek?
Krauss: It's still in the process.
Batzli: But that, is it for sure that we're going to get a bridge or is it
still a possibility that we get a 20 foot diameter culvert kind of a deal?
Or is that what we're shooting for at this point?
Krauss: What seems to work best at this point, I don't think the Highway 5
Task Force has an official position on which one is most optimal. It's
clear that we'd prefer a clear span bridge. Everybody would. The cost
gets very, very significant. For a fraction of the cost, a third of the
cost of a bridge, they've come up with an alternative they call a bebo
culvert which is a culvert that's a different shape and it can be 20-25
feet high in the middle and is quite wide at the bottom and. it would be
daylighted in the middle, in the median. And large enough that you're
getting air and light through it and everything else and it's not the
little box tunnel that is in Eden Prairie by Mitchell Lake over there.
Planning Commission Meeting
May i9, 1993 - Page 33
Batzli: Is that for wildlife or people to go through? What do they expect
to go through there?
Aanenson: People.
Mancino: Well the deer ~lll.
Batzli: I always saw deer over the highway there to go down to the lake so
I assumed that maybe they were installing it to try and.
Krauss: Deer will only go under a real open bridge and if you-have some
good clearance. They won't go through anything pretty much.
Scott: What about that impact study that was dealing with, I'll say
frontage roads, although that's not the correct term.
Krauss: Access boulevards.
Scott: I'm sorry. Access boulevards.
Krauss: Politically correct word.
Scott: Well I'm probably one of the least politically correct individuals
but ~hat's the deal on that? Weren't they talking about June?
Aanenson: Yeah, they're still scheduled. As a matter of fact.
Krauss= The environmental assessment. One of the things that's, hasn't
held it up, made it a little more involved is the State Historic
Preservation Office changed the ground rules on what they expected on their
cultural resources survey...indian mounds and historic structures. They're
requiring that a geomorphologist, I have no idea what that is, be brought
into the program. Somebody who can apparently astern what's beneath the
soil structure. That's being done. It added some cost and it added a
little bit of time but we still want to keep on track for having this
document done by the end of June.
Scott: Well how much more?
Krauss: How much does a geomorphologist cost? Apparently $11,353.00.
Scott: Isn't that about a lO~ increase on the
Krauss: That's correct.
Mancino: Who pays for that?
Krauss: We do. The HRA is. Now keep in mind that this whole project is
being done with the understanding that this is going to result in a very
significant cost share by MnDot. In essence we're front ending costs that
they might have done if you gave them an extra 3, 4, 5, 10 years. But
they've agreed in principle to fund the construction of most of the
boulevard and they more recently agreed in principle to fund the
acquisition of right-of-way for a lot of it. Also, with this
Planning Commission Meeting'
May i9, i993 - Page 34
geomorphologist, we're going back in and correcting their environmental
work-up that was done for TH $ a number of years ago. So they can keep
their project on track and they expect, or we expect them to reimburse us
for that when the project comes due.
Batzli: Two comments here quickly. One is, on this HGA letter.-The last
sentence reads, there was a majority vote for proceeding with a recreation
center. I assume from Ladd that he was forced to say majority vote rather
than unanimous because of the no vote that Ladd cast for me at that meeting
when I wasn't there so I appreciate that. Thank you.
Conrad: No Brian, thanks for leaving.
OPEN DISCUSSIOn: AUTO RELATED USES,
Batzli: Blame it on me. And are you going to touch on Highway Business
zoning before we get into the auto related uses here?
Krauss: It's one and the same.
Batzli: Well, the one was to preclude them from every zone and I thought
the other one was going to be, discussion of making it a conditional use.
Or isn't that true. We're going to have to kind of discuss this all as
one?
Krauss: Yeah, let me brief you on what the City Council has asked for, and
I'm not sure how to handle it. I think you're all aware of the bruhaha
that occurred with the Abra/Goodyear stuff and it's not likely to go away.
We don't have that many sites left that are zoned BH. In fact, Kate did up
a map which I meant to take down here but forgot. It's sitting on my desk
but we looked at sites where these things could conceivably occur. There
are at least 2 individuals on the City Council who are quite adamant that
there never be another auto related use ever again in Chanhassen, as near
as I can tell.
Scott: That's Mark and.
Krauss: And Dick Wing.
Mancino: And why?
Batzli: None of us have cars.
Krauss: Well yeah, it's hard for me to be, I'll try and be as impartial-as
I can. I think everybody acknowledges that most auto related uses fall
into the obnoxious category. I mean they're things you tend to try to
screen. They're things that tend to look ugly. They're things that tend
to involve...attract cars and traffic and noise and whatever else. Mark
Senn raised a considerable issue about the location of those two uses which
he perceived to be, I don't know how else to say but on his side town.
Like why is everything being put there. I mean there"s never been an
intent to put it one way or the other. It just kind of happened wherever
the BH district happened to be.
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 35
Batzli: Does he live in that area behind McDonald's there?
Krauss: No, but up TH 101. Coming away from that there was a great deal
of concern expressed and I don't honestly know if it was in the heat of the
moment or what, staff was directed to come back with some analysis of
completely eliminating auto related uses from the city from ever happening
again. I put together a memo which is in you~ packet which inside it deals
Nith that particular question. I t~ied to rephrase the question as to ~hat
exactly do you mean? Drive up banks are auto related uses. The Country
Hospitality Suites is a ~ive thru. Everything is in o~ way, shape or
~orm. Do you strictly mean those things that have drive-~ windows or
those things that cater to automobile service, and it seems that that's
~hat they're focusing on. Those t~o it,s. We had a discussion at a ~ork
session. I was out o~ to~n for that. 3o Rnn covered t~t ~or me. One o~
the things they pointed out is i~ you Just wipe out the auto related uses
from the BH district, which is what some o~ them are proposing, you've just
made every existing one non-conforming which means that ~ they have a
fire, or i~ the businesses they catered ~or a period of time, they're out.
I mean you can't put it back again. It's fair to say there's some
divergence o~ opinion on this, I suppose on the Council. Hike Mason said
he seemed to remember going to a McDonald's-once and he even thought he got
gas once or t~ice a few years ago. ~ if you're building a full service
community and a downtown, it's reasonable to ~ave some variety o~ uses.
~ell the Council, ~e ~ere asked to come back a~ ~ind out if there's a
strategy you can use to do these things. To accomplish this goal. Roger
Knutson wrote back and said yes, you can eliminate all auto related uses.
~hat Roger didn't say, and ~hat the Council, some o~ the rest o~ the
Council kne~ is, is you can't say ~e eliminate all of them except when ~e
~eel something is good about it and when-they demonstrate, and one o~ the
things that came up is, that they should ~mo~trate that there's a need.
I have a personal and ethical question for that. ~hen Little Ceasar's
Pizza opened up, we didn't say demonstrate that there's a need ~or another
pizza place in to~n. ~hat is a need? I mean this o~ntry's based on the
fact that i~ there's a market...and somebody ~a~ts to take a crack at
filling it, it's their business. It's not our ~siness to regulate nor to
create monopolies.
Scott: Nell this is my opinion. My opinion is, is that a lot of this is,
it's masquerading as something else. Someone's making a taste call but
it's masquerading it. So they're trying to make it appears as though it's
something else. It's only my personal opinion it's pretty bogus. [ mean
if someone follows our standards as they exist today, they're
entrepreneurs. I mean they're not obviously throwing their money away. So
they've done their market research and they've figured it out and it's, at
least from what I've seen, a majority of those people have been working
very closely with city staff to make sure that it looks decent. I just, I
think it's inappropriate to try to exclude certain types of services just
because they're not tasteful. ! mean yeah, there's illegal businesses and
all that kind of stuff but if it fits the land use. Personally I just
think that's totally inappropriate for them to be getting involved. Rnd
you're right. Ns'Il let people do, we'll let people conduct certain types
of businesses as long as ~e think it's okay. I mean you're abso[ute[y
right. Your memo raised a good point. 8e up ~ront. Say what you're
trying [o do and then yeah, you can legislate [f you ~[11. But yeah, I
Planning Commission Meeting
May i9, 1993 - Page 36
have a real problem with that kind of thought process. The old gasoline
alley context.
Batzli: Well yeah but, I think there's a valid point to be made here and
that is, let's assume for a minute that the intent is not to completely
eliminate them but to make sure that we either have adequate controls or
that they're going in the proper zones ~here they're not viewed as
potential, I don't want to use the word eyesore but that's the only one
that comes to mind. Because I think typically, or more recently as people
have developed these kind of retail malls, and suddenly rather than retail,
part of the mall you see a Tires Plus and a tune up place and a brake and
muffler place and once one is in, it seems like they kind of feed on each
other. Suddenly you have a Goodyear and Firestone across the street from
each other doing the exact same thing. And you end up with this little
area of all, and I'm going to call them auto related uses but what I mean
is auto service related uses. And I think the residents in that particular
area fear that for one reason or another. And when I look at Eden Prairie,
especially right on the western side of Eden Prairie Center, where the
Tires Plus and I think they've got a Goodyear and they've got all these
things. Ail clustered right in that one area. I don't view it as an
eyesore or as a problem or noxious fumes .or anything else. It's a retail
area and these uses are, actually fit in quite nicely with you know a
restaurant 100 feet away and you've got guys changing tired on the other
side.
Scott: Yeah, and they have architectural standards.
Batzli: Now don't get me wrong. I think that whole area is an absolute
disaster as far as getting around within that shopping area. But that's
not the fault of the people that located their stores there. That's the
developer and the City of Eden Prairie making a rat maze of little things.
Scott: That's going to be downtown Eden Prairie by the way. You're
familiar with the project they're planning for there.
Batzli: Yeah. So, but I don't know. I don't want to eliminate them. If
we don't have the proper controls of they're in the wrong district, let's
talk about that but.
Farmakes: I don't think that any car service place is going to put in an
operation here unless it's adjacent to Highway 5.
Scott: Absolutely.
Farmakes: Or Highway 5 or 4i.
Mancino: What about 2127
Batzli: No, they'll want to put it along 212.
Farmakes: They want the impression~ of automobiles going by on a daily
basis with high numbers that are going to see their signs and see their
services. The reason being is because it's the people who are driving cars
and they're going to need tires and they're going to need service and
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 37
they're going to need gas. Those typical service operations, no. matter
where you go. You go to Rochester, Duluth or New Ulm, those particular
operations are serviced but they're not equated with the quality to the
operation itself. Many of them are like Rapid Oil Change. They're
basically a shell building with a large type signage operation that is
advertising to the highway and they're going to provide service to the.
community but they're certainly not going to provide any architectural
investment in the community and I think that's where the.grade, that's
where we're butting up against. Do we have this vision as to what we're
looking for along Highway 5 is some sort of advertisement for our community
and what the practicality of business is, is that they're trying to sell
tires. Not our community.
Scott: Well, but then we've got hamburgers and we've got gas stations and
we'll have perhaps a full hotel and so forth.
Farmakes: But to a more extent those are more customer friendly operations
in how they look. It's far easier to talk a franchiser operation where
you're going to have people' coming into, sitting down and consuming your
product, whatever it happens to be versus somebody who's dropping their car
off for an oil change. If you look at the type of structures that are
going up, Rapid Oil or Goodyear Tire. You saw the list of the buildings
that we got. There's one from column A, one from column B and virtually
they were essentially all the same thing. They were a square building with
minimum of architectural investment. And that's simply not what they need
to provide for their business. They don't need that and anything that we
ask them to put in addition to that, as an investment to our.community on
Highway 5 is simply not in their best interest.
Batzli: An option then may be, if we don't want a bunch of free standing
square buildings where we have to fight tooth and nail, is to require that
they come in as a retail' block similar to that Eden Prairie one or the mall
over in Hopkins. That type of thing where they come in unified and we get
to deal with them all at once.
Scott: And then you have this big control of signage.
Batzli: Right.
Mancino: And the setbacks from the neighborhood.
Krauss: We tried with Goodyear/Abra to do that and we didn't have any
tools to do it. I guess for us though, it's not so much the use as what
you're going to require them to do. You're going to require them to
perform. I had a guy in here yesterday, in fact it was Russ Pauly,
from Pauly's who's looking to do a car wash in town. Of course my first
reaction was oh geez. I don't feel like getting dragged through another
one right now. But I laid down a bunch of guidelines and they're looking
at a very visible site where it would be with a building, similar, to a
building that was put in Wayzata with pitched roofs. It's in the tax
increment district so we can crank on it pretty well. Earth bermed and
heavily landscaped on the Highway 5 side so you really won't see directly
into anything.
Planning Commission Meeting
May ~9, ~99~ - Page 38
Batzli: Is it brushless?
Krauss: Yeah.
Scott: We'I1 be there.
Krauss: But you're making it perform and once you make it perform, I don't
see what the issue is. I mean it doesn't matter ~hat's inside. I think
the Council, and I think yourselves too where we're put between a rock a
hard place. I mean you had this old commercial area that was it
appropriate or was it inappropriate to be put, for McDonald's to be put
where it is but it was there. You had a neighborhood who reacted, and has
reacted over 10 years, with a good deal of hostility to anything happening
over there that's commercial. We understand that. The reaction's natural
but, and then you have the heightened sensitivity for what we could expect
along Highway 5 and the frustration that the ordinance isn't in place and
it wasn't in the tax increment district so we didn't have any carrots' or
sticks to fix it and at that point you had exactly what Self described and
they said, well this is the standard building we do. And we did make them
change it. I mean I don't think that what was out there, in the
conventional sense, what was approved is half bad. I mean yeah, I would
have liked the tools to do better but the buildings that finally resulted
were better than they started with. Yes, they could have been better yet.
The sites are very heavily landscaped. They're set back far from the
highway. ! mean in the very least theY're going to look a whole lot better
than the Goodyear building in Eden Prairie that we drove past tonight as a
matter of fact.
Batzli: The western set facade wasn't approved, was it?
Krauss: Western set? Oh no. You mean with the little stick thing coming,
oh no.
Farmakes: I think if Abra and Goodyear and iO,O00 Auto Parts, whatever
they were looking at there. We have a finite amount of land there. And
really if it's a given that it's going to be along, that development's
going to be along Highway S, there isn't that much land left there. And if
you get a large block of auto related businesses going on there, you've
really defined the area. I don't think you're going to get a Bachman's
there. I don't think you're going to get other types of developments.
Once you define it, say similar to how Menard's is out there where they
have a large strip of auto related businesses in a row and there's sort of
a wetland and then there's retail continuing farther down. It doesn't seem
like once you lay into that that you're going to get away from it.
Krauss: But there is no more land over there. There's one site left and
it's on Lake Street. Lake Drive. Everything beyond that is part of the
IOP area that DataServ owns. So that's a case in point of, I mean they're
kind of shutting the door after the cow's gone. We bare the one other BH
site is the one next to the Chan motel on Highway $. Another one is the
one the HRA owns next to the Americana Bank. Of course we own it so we can
do whatever we like. Councilman Senn raised some issues with the Target
site plan. That Target site plan which was designed to restrict fast food
operations. Was...to be a detriment because, in restricting it it allowed
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 39
2. You know where it could have originally allowed 5 I suppose. Now it
allows 2, and he raised some concerns with that. Now we share the
concerns. That's why the PUD was structured to require architectural
standards and whatever else. Anyway, what I need from you is some kind of
a sense, I mean fundamentally, is there a sense of the Planning Commission
on auto related uses? I need to go back to the Council with a couple of
different options and say, really what do you want me to do here. Because
I know we're going to get hit up side the head the next time an auto
related use comes down regardless and I don't think it's going to be in the
too distant future.
Farmakes: If there is, if we do have a given, if you agree with the fact
that any type of auto related use is going to be along, development's going
to be along Highway 5, High, ay 7 or 41 or 212 in the future perhaps. If
it's going to be along a highway, how much, say in the near term, $ years.
How much land do you see being developed?
Krauss: There's not a lot, and again if you have a map that shows.
Farmakes: ...auto related use.
Krauss: We have.
Aanenson: There's the Charlie James property.
Krauss: Well, yeah. But that's general business.
Aanenson: A gas station could go there.
Krauss: Yeah. Well, he already had approval for a Quik Stop at one point
there and never built it. You have the James piece. You have the one I
mentioned next to the motel. You have the one the HRA owns and you have
the outlots and Target. That's it.
Conrad: I think we should, let me interrupt you Paul. Just two quick
thoughts. When we designed the BH district it Nas for auto related uses.
Mancino: It was?
Conrad: It was. I was here. That's why we had it. That's where we were
going to cluster everything. That Nas the intent.
Batzli: Highway Business?
Conrad: Highway Business. That was the intent. We could have them in
downtown Chan. We thought let's cluster them out in the highway. Okay, so
now the question is, was that a right or wrong decision? Well, maybe we
should revisit that one. I'm still pretty comfortable with it. eut I
guess what I'd like to see staff do, a~d I don't kno~ what the timeframe
here is. Is for staff to come back and maybe, and show us where, how many.
How much land is left and just have a little map and we can take a look at
it and then we should decide if we have the sta'ndards in place to control
those particular parcels and if we see any changes. That way maybe City
Council will believe that we're taking a look at it from a thoughtful,
Planning Commission Meeting
May Zg, ~993 - Page 40
future perspective. I don't see the problem. I honestly don't. I think
we're doing exactly what we said we were doing and [ really don't have the
same sensitivity to the entrance of Chanhassen that maybe some of the
Council members do.
Farmakes: I think that the retail and the gas is not necessarily the same
type operation that you would get with retailing auto service.proJects,
Tires, parts, things of that nature. It seems like gas is going more and
more crossover retail. They're not just selling tires and they're not
doing car repair. They're selling gas and they're selling milk and so on.
But if you carry, it wouldn't seem to me that the service items would carry
out of downtown but the possibility of the gas and retailing might. We
were looking at that commercial area, yc~J're talking about commercial west
of town on Highway 5. A stop and go type thing or Brooks market type
operation or Total. And if longer term, if they build a 212 or something,
those would be other auto related uses. But that would be a much longer
time frame that we'd be looking at.
Krauss: Well but anything in a longer time horizon on Highway 5, anything
beyond the summer is going to be subject to the overlay district that
you're going to develop. Anything that's not currently zoned BH is going
to be covered by that or be in a PUD and give you a lot of extra control.
All the remaining sites, except for the one in front of Abra/Goodyear,
behind it I guess, is in the tax increment district which typically means
they're going to ask the HRA for the 3 year increment deal which means we
have the ability to ask for improved standards in return. Again, I mean I
want to respond positively to the direction I'm getting from the Council
but I'm not exactly sure what it is. $o that's why I wanted to bounce it
off of you.
Farmakes: In discussing with them really briefly, weren't they concerned
about the fact that they were going to get a car dealership or that sort of
thing going on along Highway 5?
Krauss: It's never been, nobody's ever, well. We talked with one about
3-4 years ago but it's never been broached and there's no sites large
enough to get one.
Farmakes: ! thought I heard the Mayor say something about he didn't want
any car dealerships coming in here. I thought that might have percipitated
but other than that I haven't heard anyone being anti-car.
Krauss: It might not be fair to the Council but I think a lot was said in
the heat of the moment with angry residents and being confronted with one
project after another.
Farmakes: The Chan Estates development over there is what you're talking
about?
Scott: I heard an interesting comment from Gene Borg who built that
McDonald's down there. He said you k~ow it's-kind of interesting is that
when I got that thing in there, people Just raised all sorts of heck and
now their kids work here. From the standpoint of, I certainly don't have
any problems with auto related uses there and also given the zoning. Given
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 4).
the types of uses that we're looking at. It seems like the thing that we
really need to be concerned about is what does it look like, because I mean
there's the gateway ideas that Jeff and I were talking about but it seems
like, from what I've seen of the plans and working with city staff, the
buildings have turned into, oh. It's an Abra but it's a good looking Abra.
Or it's a Goodyear. It's a good looking Goodyear. Personally I think we
should be concerned with stgnage and the visual impact of what it is and in
the grand scheme of things when you're coming in, when you look on the
right hand side and. you see Lotus Lawn and Garden, you kno~, I'd rather see
open space buildings are more particularly attractive to me. However, if
it's an appropriate use for that land, and the architectural police to make
sure that it looks decent, and you follow down the street and you see a gas
stations are uglier than hack. So it's kind of like, I think that's an
improvement over a McDonald's and a gas station. $o personally, I think
it's an appropriate use and we Just police the outside of the building and
signage. That's my simple world that I live in.
Batzli: Paul, don't we have an additional ordinance with respect to
location of gas stations with respect to each other and residential lots?
Krauss: It only pertains to convenience stores and yeah, there is a
setback of gas pumps to residential structures.
Batzli: I thought it was in relation to each other as well.
Krauss: Yes.
Batzli: Does that apply throughout all districts?
Krauss: For that use I believe it does because I think it was'done, if I'm
not mistaken, it was done as a conditional use permit standard. But that
also grew out of kind of, I mean it started before I came here. I finished
it up but it grew out of.
Batzli: Well there was a fear we were going to get one on 4 corners facing
each other and that kind of thing.
Krauss: Right. Gary Brown's proposal.
Batzli: What with the Holiday station and everything else. Ladd, since
you admitted that you were here when you put these various categories, in
general business district one conditional use is major auto repair and body
shops and convenient stores with gas pumps and motor fuel stations. Ali
this stuff. I thought what I heard you say was that you wanted to put it
all in the Business Highway and not in the General Business.
Conrad: We were trying to put highway oriented uses on the highway. So
highway meaning quick in, quick out. And typically that related to auto.
8atzli: But now that our 8G district, if you will, includes Target and
areas like that, is it still appropriate to put those uses there or do we
want to cluster them all in just this one little narrow strip in the whole
city?
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 42
Conrad: I would not like to see, well. I don't like auto related
businesses. They're typically not attractive and I had a concern with
putting them in the downtown area Brian. They are legal to some extent.
I'm not sure.
Batzli: Conditional uses.
Conrad: They just tend to be asphalt. To me they broke up a downtown that
had some continuity. Like a lot of other business, any kind of franchise
type operation tends to divide a downtown area up into parking lot,
building, parking lot, building and I really did, I personally did not want
to see that in downtown Chanhassen.
8atzli: Well let's assume for a minute that the general business district
wouldn't be a good place to put these. And we decided that we wanted to
eliminate them as conditional uses. That would tend to drive-those
businesses even more into the eH district, which is what the residents then
and Councilman Senn are kicking about. I mean if you want to make sure
they all go in that one spot, that's one way to do it.
Conrad: Again, I guess I'm not even sure of the .problem and that's why I
was saying to Paul, I'd Just like to see the spaces that people can move
into. I can't any decisions right now. I"d llke to see staff show us
where they can move in and how many we've got and, we don't have, you know.
We've talked about this before. If your car breaks down, other than Gary
Brown's little place, that's the only service station you can go to right
now to get your car fixed in town. I don't think we really have, I don't
have the impression that we have, I have the i~ression we don't have
enough auto related.
Batzli: Sinclair or whatever that place is, don't they fix cars there?
Aanenson: There's one in the industrial park.
Farmakes: There's a radiator place. That's where they probably should be,
like Lake Susan over there.
Scott: But who else is going to buy that land and build something on it?
I mean you're looking at fast food. You're looking at gas. You're looking
at auto related uses.
Farmakes: I've always thought car repair should go in an industrial area
but it doesn't coincide with their advertising.
Scott: No, because they need that repetitive drive by and then when you
need it, you know where it is.
Farmakes: But no other businesses enjoy that necessity.
Scott: Well like J & R Radiator I think is a really good example because
the only way I found out about it ts I went into Brown's with a radiator
problem and they said, oh we get our radiator's fixed over there, and I
went what? So they do mostly work for gas stations.
Planning Commission Heating
Hay 19, 1993 - Page 43
Farmakes: If you were doing a Nec truck repair, you'd be in an industrial
area. Discernably, as far as what they're doing, it just happens to be a
little larger...
Batzli: Well, it's the advertising drive by. Well Paul, why don't, let's
proceed along Ladd's proposed plan which is, let's take a look and see if
there really is a problem. Now that we've talked about-it for a half hour.
We don't know if there's a problem yet.
Scott: I don't think there is one.
Conrad: Mr. Chairman, could I just go back to an item on the entertainment
complex?
Batzli: Sure.
Conrad: I'm going to say this for Paul's benefit. The memo that was done
from Curt Green, I don't think really says what came out of that meeting at
all. I'm not convinced that Plan 10 was, it indicates that some decisions
were made out of it. Boy I tell you, I don't want anybody to believe that
this is something that ! thought reflected the comments that I heard that
night. It reflects what he heard but.
Scott: Well that's what he wanted to hear.
Conrad: I don't know, you know. It's obviously from memory and boy, I
don't even like it being public record to tell you the truth. It's almost
like it's steering, it might steer somebody who forgot what went on at that
meeting and that is not it. This does not document the concerns that I
heard. The concerns that I heard were, we don't have any plan that's
viable on the desk. The concerns that I vocalized was to have some kind of
an indoor center, or city complex that community could gather in. And I
saw some support. I guess ! wasn't the only one that thought that.
Satzli: When Ladd raised that early on, before I left, there were not only
numerous heads shaking but several people spoke and seconded that idea in
concept and that's nowhere to be found in this memo.
Krauss: You know what? It's like mercury. It keeps dancing all over the
place. I think they're on plan 13 or 14 now and I know the one that I saw
the last time did have a lot of community space. Did have the high open
entrance that made it real appealing and did incorporate I think, some of
the things that they were hearing. Whether it was all of it or it meets
your goals or not, I honestly don't know.
Conrad: Yeah, ! just wanted to make the point. Not to resurrect all the
negatives but Just to say, I don't believe this. And if you're ever in a
position of people asking your opinion of What went on, because that's not
it.
Farmakes: Have you ever seen a development use be so fluid as to what it's
going to be. I mean we've worked on this from the inception of where the
community center's supposed to be now, what' 6-7 years. And yet really no
definitive, hard marketing information for needs analysis has ever followed
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 44
that. I know that the earlier commissions did some but this sort of is
almost, it's a grab bag of possibilities to be used with no hard
information and analysis, any hard information.to follow it at all.
Krauss: I raised, I mean I've heard you say that often enough Jeff and
when we had the department sitting down on this, I kept on belaboring the
point and that's how we sort of, that's how we came around to the idea of
the brochure. What Todd Hoffman will tell you though is, he's got realms
of data about who's using programs. How many people they're turning away
from programs. Per capita rates of how many basketball teams you get and
how many rooms you have to rent and if that's the rate we experience with
14,000 people, what's it going to be when we have 25,000 people. I mean
that kind of stuff he can put together.
Farmakes: Sure, but can it be put together in a logical sequence? That's
a building, a purpose and location for the correct solution to those
problems? Not that it couldn't be but I'm just saying it hasn't been
offered in such a way and I think ho~ many versions has come from this
recently is reflected with the confusion that's involved there. It's
almost like we have a fixed amount of-money. We know we want to put it
there. What the hack do we come up with to figure out to do it? It seems
to me that, if you're looking at a location for that particular service,
you're going to wind up where it fits on a couple really good and the rest
of them are thrown in just to make the tenant list. And that concerns me.
Scott: In this situation, I mean where it's so chaotic and there's no
clear direction, I think this is a great o~ortunity for the Planning
Commission to just say, and this is kind of what you're working on is,
here's the one pager that says this is what...and here are the responsible
parties. Park and Rec should do this and, some people may find that
noviceably offensive but there really isn't anybody who's saying, hey. Do
you know what the problem is. If we don't, here's ~here the data can come
from and so I think what we're driving at is a direction, to give some
direction from this body and them yeah. Put a brochure together and kind
of like they did with the bond referendum. They knew what the problem was.
They surveyed and they found that the people didn't really believe it or
really understand it.
Krauss: That's exactly the kind of brochure and same organization...
Farmakes: There are two types of brochures. 0ns'sells ideas and the other
one forms ideas.
Krauss: Well, and this one doesn't need to sell. The ones that I'm
familiar with and you have copies of them all upstairs, were selling bond
issues. The likelihood here is that we won'd need to sell a bond issue.
We just want to gather a community consensus on whether this is a
reasonable thing to do or not.
F~rmakes: I'm backing up to my earlier community civic center development.
Mancino: $o you're trying to get buy in from the community?
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 45
Krauss: They're trying to get comments and buy in and understanding. And
again, the financing is all open. One of the reasons it's where it is is
because in the tax increment district, you only have the ability to build
it if it doesn't go above a certain number, or out of tax increment funds.
Anyplace else we don't have that ability. And then there was some talk
about doing that for most of it and then going out for a small bond issue.
But the thing ham been fluid. I mean not too long ago it was a conference
center that was being driven by the fact that the hotel wanted to expand,
which was a reasonable idea. Then tacking recreational facilities onto it.
And then when push came to shove, we found out the hotel was a ghost. I
mean they may want to expand but they wanted us to find all the costs and
carry all the charges and they may Kent the rooms from us on occasion. Well
that wasn't going to work. Then there's all kinds of interoations with
Bloomberg and, I mean these kinds of negotiations go on with virtually
every project we do. You just don't normally know about it. And this is a
much more public kind of format. Now ultimately you do hear about projects
but it's when they're pTetty well defined.
Batzli= Do you know what the driving force is to include a pool in the
project? Do you understand that? Because clearly the School District will
build a pool out at the elementary school if it's needed.
Krauss= No. No. That's not true.
Batzli: Well, that was what was said to us at the meeting'was that they
came in and the first thing they said was, are you going to build a pool or
should we at the elementary site? That's what Don said. You're telling me
they said something else.
Krauss: We met with them this morning. The pool wasn't going... I mean
it's conceiveable that a pool could be built out there but it's wholly at
city expense. The school doesn't need one for a grade school.
Mancino: But again, it is a TIF district and there is money to build a
pool there.
Krauss= It is a TIF district out there. We already spent considerably sum
of money to buy the land. Ne want to spend money to build the bridge under
High~ay 5 and various other things..
Batzli: My only point is, the plans that we've seen so far don't include
the rooms that were apparently the initial driving force to this whole
thing. The meeting rooms, that type of thing.
Krauss= The most recent plan, the one that I saw on Monday does include
substantial meeting rooms. It does include a very large multi purpose room
that can be broken up and reassembled. You can' hold affairs there and that
kind of thing.
Batzli: Does it have 2 gyms, 4 racquetball courts and a pool?
Krauss: I believe so.
Batzli: How do they bring that in under $6 million?
Planning Commission Heating
Hay ~, ~3 - Page 4~
Scott= They can't.
Krauss: I think one of the gyms was shown as a future phase. If my memory
serves. Don't quote me on that because I mean, I've seen so many of these
plans I kind of lose track of it.
Batzli.' No, my point was. They keep on including 'the same things and just
kind of shuffling them around like it's a shell game and the numbers always
come up that we can't afford it. And I'm Just wondering why we have this
perceived notion that we have to build a pool in this location. Is it
because this is supposed to be a kid area where, unless there's a pool they
won't come or I mean I guess t don't understand.
Krauss: Well, there's a part of it that ! can't speak to directly but [
think a lot of it's coming from Todd Hoffman and the perception of what
Park and Rec believes is important to support their functions and community
functions based on their day to day interaction with these things. And
I mean Todd and I kid each other about it. I mean he's very single minded
and he is the Park and Recreation Director. That's what he cares about.
mean the rest of it is peripheral'. And when he says well [ want to build
this pool and I've got to get more TIF money and your senior project just
died, I go the hell it did. We're still building a senior project and
we're going to, I mean there's a lot of give and take that goes on. Again,
I think what's different here is you're being exposed to a lot of it. Todd
does have numbers to back up his stuff but we want more than numbers and
that's why we're talking about bringing in Southside Consulting Firm, or
survey firm.
Farmakes: I still, for the life of me can't figure out ho~ they can define
from marketing information how that's the draw for children. Not unless
they have a drivers license. I can't for the life of me. It's inaccessible
for children in t~at location.
Batzli: Paul keeps telling us that our downtown is pedestrian friendly
though.
Krauss= Well, and one of the things that I don't like about this plan, one
of the things I don't like about plan 14 or whatever it is, is because of
the most recent iteration of the deal with Bloomberg, we lose the
pedestrian access to 78th Street.
Batzli: That has to be in there or you don't have my vote on it ever.
Scott= Yeah, you've got to be able to go from downtown.
Batzli: That's ludicrous.
Krauss: Now Bloomberg wants, I mean his component is he wants to keep the
retail a retail space in the Frontier Center so he has leaseable stuff.
He's concerned that if there's an entrance there, that he loses parking.
You've got to make sure that people don't park there.
Batzli: Hog wash. Hog wash. Pure hog wash.
Planning Commission Meeting
May 19, 1993 - Page 47
Krauss: Well, I have the same concern.
Batzli: You have the concern that there won't be parking for the retail?
Krauss: No. I do have a concern. There will be some conflict there. I
think you can sign it adequately and make it more convenient for people to
park around the back.
Batzli: That whole discussion assumes that all the traffic will be coming
from the northeast part of the city which it will not be once the city
develops.
Krauss: You're probably right.
Batzli: And once the city develops and High, ay 5 and you start developing
the southern part of the city, it was all going to come from the south.
There's not going to be a single person dropping off kids on the north side
of the building.
Krauss: Well, I don't think that's true though.
Batzli: No. The entire area north all goes to Minnetonka. You're not
going to see anybody coming from the north.
Krauss: You're going to have, I mean everything north of Highway 5 is
going to feed this access boulevard which is 78th Street.
Batzli: The people north of TH 5, a large chunk of them all go to
Minnetonka. Not one of them is going to go this community center on a
regular basis at all.
Krauss: Where in Minnetonka?
Batzli: Minnetonka School District. They're not going to do this. They're
not going to go to it.
Scott: Well, you could talk about north of Lotus..'
Batzli: They don't go to Chanhassen/Chaska stuff.
Farmakes: I would still define it and I'm almost certain the marketing
information's going to show this, that that should be defined as an adult
recreation center. For the square footage that it is and the amount of
people that it will serve. That's just my opinion. There's Just no way
you can convince me that that's a kids center. ! wouldn't drop my kid off
there.
Batzli: I will maybe. But I go to Minnetonka so I ~ouldn't do it.
Farmakes:
way.
I wouldn't want them walking through a 200 car parking lot. No
Batzli: Well, yeah. I don't know. One final thing, because this is going
to be ongoing obviously. Existing use zoning down in the business fringe/
Planning Commission Heeting
Hay 19, 1993 - Page 48
on the bluffs. Can we put that somewhere? I asked Jo ~nn to put that on
our schedule.
Krauss: Well it's been on our schedule.
Aanenson: That's Jo Ann's project.
Batzli: Yeah, but I don't see it on here anymore. Did it, it somehow fell
off. What happened to business fringe?
Krauss: Did it fall off?
Satzli: I think you bumped it right off of here.
Krauss: It must have been a Freudian slip of the pen.
Batzli: Your list got too long. It fell off onto page 2 or something.
I mean it's been on there for years and suddenly it was gone. It's my one
issue. My one issue that I've been on the Commission now for 5 years and
we haven't been able to get to it.
Krauss: So as long as we keep it off you'll stay on the commission.
Batzli: Anybody else or shall we adjourn.
Scott moved, Conrad ~econded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting ~as adjourned at 10=20 p.m.
Submitted by Paul Krauss
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim