Loading...
PC 1993 09 15CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMIS~ SION REGULAR MF~FING sEFrEMBER 15, 1993 Vice Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m. MEMBEI~ PRESENT: Joe Scott, Ladd Conrad, Nancy Mancino, Jeff Farmakes, Diane Harberts and Matt Ledvina MEMBER8 ABSENT; Brian Batzli STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Senior Planner PUBLIC HEARING: ~[X)N~_IDER AN AMENDMENT TQ Tm~ ~ CQDE REGARDIN(~ TEMPORARY Kate Aanenson presented the staff report on this item. Vice Chair Conrad called the public hearing to order. Conrad: I'm just going to open it up for, I'm not going to go round robin. Ledvina: Is this a public hearing? Conrad: It is a public hearing. We'll note that there is nobody from the public here but I don't. Aanenson: I think when we get a regular ordinances...we did talk with people from Target today who did request pumpkin sales in front of the Target for their grand opening and the Council felt that, was uncomfortable with that. They felt that the pumpkin.~ should be inside the store and not outside. Scott: Say what? Aanenson: I think we need to differentiate because we had this request often times...where they want to have a sidewalk sales and that sort of thing...and maybe that's the _time that we can tie in with...or maybe they're in the Arts Festival or something like that when there...that that would be the appropriate time to have sidewalk sales. Mancino: But wouldn't that almost be used as an interim use? Only because they could plan ahead and do that. You know every year we were going to have a 4th of July outdoor sidewalk sale. Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Aanenson: You could except I think you'd have to, you know get...I'm just looking at if you want to see that, if you establish a criteria and you feel comfortable with limt, then I _think we could go through that perm/t. If it's something you don't feel comfortable with or they don~t agree to tho criteria you've establi~ then I think you do want to look at it. Mancino: Well the only thing I'm not clear about, what is, would be under temporary sales. Whafs going to be under interim use and what's going to be under conditional use? I'm not clear. Aanenson: I think the only one staff is a little uncomfortable with at this time is more on a produce kind of line where it's grown or maybe flowers, pumpkins, Christmas trees. Those sort of things. They're not looking at bringing in merchandise. Mancino: So that's seasonal? Aanenson: Right. Mancino: Because if they have to be grown. Aanenson: Right. Mancino: So does that mean that our definition of temporary sales is temporary seasonal sales? Aanenson: Yeah, thais how the staff feels comfortable doing it Scott: You could maybe call it seasonal agricultural products and th~n we don't have Elvis paintings, I know dam anyway. Farmakes: My worry about that is, what if you, what if you get a bad load of shrimp up here or something? Scott: Well I don~t know if you could, thais not agricultural though. Harberts: It is. Scott: No it's. Had)em: It's regulated under the Department of Agriculture. Planning Commission Meeting- September 15, 1993 Scott: Plant material. Farmakes: For temporary use, what we're saying is...I think they~,e got seasonal shrimp. They have the Christmas tree lot and they have the...or something showing up with a bar-be* que and they sell hotdogs. And on occasion, it seems quite often on occasion, they have truckloads of pop corning in for sale and I don~t know if that's non-profit or if that's part of the supermarket that got a good buy on pop. They have teaser type sales stuff where there will nm an ad at a very low price to get people to come in and do their shopping. So the limitations of doing that type of stuff, does that become. Aanenson: You can see the depth of the problem trying to de~ine. That's one of the other things Target had requested too. Is to put a greenhouse...and you'll notice a lot of grocery stores they try to do that. In the summer there may be overflow parking. In the winter, unless they clear all the snow off, if you want Christmas trees down there, that could be a real problem. So they can really proliferate. Thafs why we need to be careful about what we allow and how many we allow on the site. Farmakes: Do we limit, you limit a site location but do you limit, lot's say for Market Square. You have how many stores there. Do you allow, each store to' 'do a promotion? Or do you limit the numbers or do you just limit it to that site itself? Aanenson: I think we would be saying...because thafs part of an PUD, that whole center. I would say if you say they can have a grand opening or leqs say they tie the 4th of July celebration. That would be the sidewalk sales. Whatever promotion they want to do then. Because with the sign ordinance, we want to allow them 3 times a year to have special signage and I think that's kind of what we would-like to see...and then the seasonal thing...f~ll or summer and winter. Harberts: How would you categorize, I noticed when Festival does a brat wagon. Aanenson: That would fall under, that was idnd of a summer festival idnd of thing. A grand opening. We do allow one grand opening. I-thinl~ thafs what Target was going to do. Harberts: I think I counted it more than once though. Aanenson: They also have requests for Girl Scouts who want to sell cookies o.ut front. It's a never ending thing. I think there's certain things we sort of want to control but do we want to be out there if someone's selling... Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Scott: No, because I think that, I mean I personally don't like to get hassled. Ifs a hassle enough to out and buy something at retail and it's especially bad I think when you have the Nestea Clown out there trying to get you to take a drink of something. So I mean I think if we're talking about, ifs going to be we have the different zoning areas. I think also too when you talk about property owners doing something on their own behalf versus someone getting permission from a property owner, I think we need to be a little bit more restrictive in that sense. I think we should give a fair amount of leeway to non-profits. But the thing I don't want to see is. Harberts: Community based non-profit. Scott: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, community based non-profit. The thing I don~t want to see is, I don't want to see people from who knows where getting permission from somebody and who knows what the heck they're going to sell. Farmakes: Can you target use to industry? I mean you're saying agriculture. Can you do Aanenson: Well I did speak to Roger about that issue and there is, you have to...I did call some other cities and ask what they do. Sometimes they restrict...but then they choose on the other hand, just to ignore the corn huts and that sort of thing. Farmakes: The only thing that worries me obviously, ifs almost that corn or something have a built in protection. There are some perishable type foods. Who's responsible if that's not up to par, and I'm not familiar enough with that industry to know how they touch that or who's legally responsible if someone gets ill. Are those people gone in 2 weeks and back down to Florida? Mancino: I feel I take my chance when I stop at the hot me~ man or the hot shrimp man or woman, and buy something and I don~t know but thafs-kind of my responsibility. Are they going to be there the next day? I doubt it. Scott: Well thafs why I think if we talk about local groups and obviously Christmas trees aren't grown locally but I mean we think about who sells.Christnum trees. We're talidng about the Lions. Well that's what I mean. I think if we're looldng at the local non-profits and limiting it to, as we can legally, but I think wetve got some leeway. I like what you're doing with, if you owned the property or you're something like Market Square. You have 3 of these a year and that's great. I'd actually like to see 4 of them a year so they can do something quarterly but you know, be that as it may. But I think we have to be really Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 careful. I think I know what you don't want. I know what I don't want to see is this random junk. People selling junk. Farmakes: So this wouldn't be for individual stores per se? This would be considered for tho entire development? Conrad: It should be for stores. I think the stores should have the opportunity to do their, if they wanted a truckload sale, or if they wanted a special event. Farmakes: You have individual stores and you've got 16 stores and they each had 4, then you would multiply that times 16. Conrad: You've got that potential. Scott: But it doesn~g I think from a sanity standpoint, what the people tend to do at a shopping mall is that there's usually some sort of a loose association where they say okay. We all want to have this sidewalk sale. Let's all have it at once so the tendency, if you look at Market Square and some of the other places in town, where there's some sort of an association, they tend to do it all at once and it makes better business sense because you want to attract as many people as possible. Farmakes: But that's really a different animal. If you have a sole proprietor, you're not going to have the money to do the type of advertising for special events. So if they go through their association and they advertise an item, thafs one promotion. You have an individual store doing a promotion, it usually has to be a fairly large store to advertise it So you've got Festival say, how do you, does Festival go ahead and take up the 4 _times versus the smaller store that doesn't have the opportunities of being able to do it even once a year. Aanenson: I think we need to break them into two categories. Like to see is one would be, a group that wants to fred a space to sell Christmas trees .... They're not tenants in the city currently. That's. Mancino: They're not owners of property. Aanenson: Then we need another category of people that are in town already doing business that want to have a temporary or a grand opening or a summer sale, whatever. So I think right away I think there are two different types of uses. Farmakes: So do you figure that by how you classify What they're selling as non-merchandise and you do that solely by they're somebody totally 'separate. Say for instance I'm assuming Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 that somebody is coming in as an individual contractor soiling pumpkins at Target. I assume that Target isn't selling pumpkins. Conrad: They could do it either way. Farmakes: That's not their typical merchandise. Conrad: No, but any other season departments, I don~t know what they're doing. Farmakes: Moonlight sale or Crazy Days, thffs getting rid of inventory. Conrad: Actually Target's garden department never used to be thews, and I'm not sure what it is fight now. Aanenson: Yeah, one of the things they requested was... Conrad: But Jeff, it's one of those cases where Target has the responsibility. They are sanctioning that vendor to come in and so you have, on their property, so it's their integrity more than. At least we have somebody to count on to be checking them out. Farmakes: They usually a retailer is going to use them for one of two things. One is to bring people on a teaser item. And the other is, there's usually a section of parking lot thafs dead. it's too far away from the store and it's usually during non-peak hours, it's usually a dead spot and it allows them to get some income out of either a percentage of sales or, it isn't necessarily part of their store. Then the question becomes, as we Were talking before, the difference between merchandising and a seasonal type sales use. Christmas tree versus m.. Scott: How would this also affect Septemberfest, Art Festival, St. Huberfs Harvest Festival? Aanenson: ...the city's really never done anything~ .- Farmakes: Like if you had a flea market on a parking lot Aanenson: Well one of the things we looked at too, if we did a park 'and ride...that'd be a great place for a farmers market and that may be a place where we...but that'd be a great- place to make sure... Scott: So it's kind of what we need to do is to come up with 3 or 2 classifications of things. I mean it's like there's the agricultural stuff. Seasonal agricultural stuff. The local not for pwfit seasonal thing. Then there are, I don~ know if you'd want to call them city sponsored 6 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 or local, a festival sponsored by local organizations. Maybe thafs another little bucket but I think if we can separate these things out and then be able to deal with them individually, perhaps that's because I can see this thing being a huge octopus with all sorts of. Conrad: Well it shouldn't be complicat~,d you know and I thinl~ there's also a trigger if there's, I think the rules will never be right~ Theyql always be, so the rules have to take care of a certain amount of things and if it doesnt, then they kick it into, then it comes to the Planning Commission and we take a look at iL Yeah, and that may take some time and that will discourage some people but that's the way it will have to be. This could be really a fiasco. You can out guess all the things we're talking about here and I'd rather not see a huge ordinance. I think the logic for what we're doing and not have it come through the Planning Commission. If we can come up with the standards that are simple, that are real clear that we know that we're controlling them, then it should be administrative approval. For those things we can't figure out because there are too many variables, they've got to come in to see us. Farrnakes: Then I think you should clarify the intent Of what. we don~t want up' front. Maybe thafs the... Conrad: The only other thing Kate, I think you've got to keep in the back of you mind, you know what other shopping centers and other retailers are doing. I dontt think we're trying to be, well you see what they're doing. The sidewalk sales are very typical. Somefi_'mes thoro are truckload sales, and I think some of those are fun things. I guess I dontt feel that we need to discourage those. I think we're trying to prevent some of this other stuff from happ_ening. Thafs the bulk of this ordinance. Not to keep Target' from having pumpkins out in the front of their store. Scott: Isn't it what we don't want transient for profit merchandising going on in town, unless it's controlled very tightly. Conrad: Yeah, right. Scott: Is that kind of what we're doing? Aanenson: ...temporary sales currently being outdoor storage. Scott: That's like the first two sentences. This ordinance is designexl to discourage the following, you know two sentences. Planning Commission Meeting- September 15, 1993 Farmakes: It would be helpful though if we do get a farmers market type situation, that would be helpful to, so you don't have these kind of location signs all over the city and cardboard. You know, I'm not sure though, can you do an ordinance? I can see that we%e done profit and non-profit for things like in signage. But can you designate that it has to be local non-profit? I've never heard of that Scott: That's the intent but I mean I think. Mancino: Legally, I doubt it. Harberts: No because then you're discriminating. Farmakes: Particularly if you're targeting industries. I'm not sure if the signage I know that if it had to be fairly unrestrictive of industry that was applied across the board. A temporary sign for a house_. A temporary sign for a building. Scott: Or do we grandfather in certain things that we. Farmakes: I noticed that..said it was illegal in the zoning to target, when we were talking about Highway 5, it was illegal to target a specific industry. That would make it more restrictive for hotels. Scott: Or auto related uses? I-Iarberts: I'm guessing Kate that you've talked with other cities or continue to talk with other cities. You know I think that with an ordinance you could, what you don't want to do is get into a checklist situation and I think you have to look at what is your overall goal in terms of what you're trying to, I guess control. Because of whatever reason. If it's public safety related or whatever. I think that really has to be the basis. In terms of the overall goal that you're trying to achieve with the ordinance otherwise you start getting into a checklist and it's almost like you're creating a, I don~t know, maybe to some extent a glass, a bubble around Chanhassen in terms of we'll allow you in or we wont allow you to do this and I don~t think that's really what the role of government is all about. Farmakes: There's one other thing too that we're not, right now we do Oktoberfest and a couple other, two seasonal holidays. Excelsior does a lot more. They draw a lot of people in. Currently we don't really have a location for that unless we use the parking lot or baseball field. If the city does, say finish that park up in front, they may have, or the farmers market there may be an opportunity to have like a citywide type situation for that can be Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 conditions made for flea markets and that type of thing throughout the city. Again, thafd be on a limited basis. I-I~berts: Is there an opportunity to keep the ordinance to some flexibility? You know as maybe Chanhassen matures towards this type of issue, I think there's a lot of what ifs and I think we need to keep that ordinance, or potential ordinance somewhat flexible so we can maybe address those things as things develop here. But I think again the overall goal is to, what are we really striving to do. I don't _think we want to make _things burdensome for anyone but you know there's clearly reasons to regulate difl'erent sales. Temporm3, sales or whatever. Aanenson: In the past we haven't had any large anchors downtown before. So now...and we're not sure if we approve those uses...we want all this stuff outside. And so some of it does...with the community. I guess what we're looking for is... Scott: And if ifs a tenant or a landowner, that's one thing and we can say you can do 4 of those a year. And then if ifs somebody who's temporarily leasing, I think that's a whole other, different use and different type of merchandising and then throw in the non-profit piece so I think those three things, that keeps something fairly simple and you can always amend an ordinance you know. Conrad: Well, do you have enough inpuf? I think thafs pretty good. And I think the intent of this is real important. I think you~,e heard some good commentS from the people here. Ledvina: I have some specifics. I don't know if you wanted to hear. Conrad: Go ahead. Now's the time. Ledvina: Well, I'll just start out and say that just kind of following up on Ladd's idea to provide some guidance on what constitutes an application that would necessitate it coming before the Planning Commission. I think maybe all these things that we've talked' about go in an intent statement and then kind of a little blueprint for an applicant that serves as, if you're going beyond or cannot meet the requirementS that are laid out here and you always have the right to go to the Planning Commission to discuss your proposal. So I think that would be appropriate. On page 4, standards for temporary sales on the bottom of the page. I have a real problem with that language. ~'ust save the clause; including any additional conditions as may be established by the Planning Department I think Diane would say, well enables you to have the flexibility but I don't know. Thafs kind of carte blanche and I don't kind of like that. So take a close look at that. If there's a way of saying it a little bit differently, I would prefer that. Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Aanenson: It's hard to hit all things. Sometimes... Ledvina: I understand the difficulty but at the same time, you don~t want a situation where tho applicant feels that you have the power or you can point to this thing in the ordimmce and say, well we can make you confine your operation to 10 x 30 rectangle or something like that. And that's our condition. I don't know. Maybe that's obtuse but. Aanenson: I can think of a couple ways we can handle that. Why don~t we just say, any other proof that would deemed necessary and then we could put a clause that would say, if staff feels that the information that's been provided is insufficient, then we would request that you come here. It'd be like what you're giving them... Ledvina: That's fine. If we could just take another look at that because. Conrad: And that triggers a thought for things going thro~ here. Is the City Council always the end? It doesn't have to be. Planning.Commission could be the grantor of the permit. A lot of responsibility folks. ~ - · Mancino: My shoulders are heavy. Conrad: That is an alternative to shorten_ ing the process. I think you can make us. They won't is my guess but. Scott: We're usurping their. Conrad: It is a way to shorten it. Aanenson: To shorten the process and that's the parC.. Farmakes: Granting a permit, you don~t waive the rest of the city ordinance? Say for temporary signs. There's a size limitation for temporary signs. They have to conform to that .... Aanenson: ...limiting walls signs and we did... Ledvina: That's another thing. That was my exact next point If you've got the Boy Scouts, they don~t even have a warming shack. I mean if they don~ have, if they're limited to wall signs, then they don't have any signs. Farmakes: Temporary signs don't necessarily have to be wall signs though. Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Ledvina: But it says fight here. Farmakes: What is it, it's 4 x 8? Mancino: I thought they always had a warming shack. Ledvina: Okay, whatever. But I mean, a trash barrel or something. And then if you're saying they have to conform to the ordinance, which is, I think ifs 15% of the wall space in the frontage or something like that. If they got this little bitty trailer, or whatever, they're not going to be happy with a 15% as a sign this big or somelhing. I don~t know. Farrnakes: That formula gives them a minimum they can make. I think that's 4 x 8 on a temporary sign. And they could build that. That formula comes into play when you have massive Targets. Ledvina: I don~t know. I guess I would just like you to revisit that item there. Conrad: Ledvina: Conrad: Can they have banners? They can, can't they? Yeah, I don't know. I don~ care. Streamers, banners. Banners would typically be the way to do it.. Ledvina: Little kids with sandwich signs walking arounc~ Scott: Also too, if there are things like, I get concerned about the temporary food sales. And as part of the permitting process should be anything that's licensed by the Department of Agriculture or the State. The Board of Health or you know, whatever. I don~ know who these authorities are. They should be made to produce a copy of their certificate or whatever that happens to be. I think we should take advantage of work that other governmental bodies have done to regulate stuff and piggy back on that as much as possible. Conrad: What else do you have Matt? Ledvina: And then I'd just like to go on record as saying that I _think Target should have their 4 x 4 bin of pumpkins. Scott: That's all it is? Ledvina: It's 4 x 12, I'm sorry. ll Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Mancino: 4 feet by 12 feet. Ledvina: Yeah. 4 feet by 12 feet. I think they should be able to have their bin of pumpking. Scott: Yeah. I'd go on re, cord as saying they should have their pumpkins too. Conrad: You know if you want to see an affect, Cub effectively merchandises the front of their store in a very presentable way so ifs not tacky. We're uy/ng to get rid of tacky but ifs fun to walk into their store. Sometimes ifs cut case stuff. Sometimes it spells out, you know merchandise that spells out things. Or ifs pumpkin.~. Nice merchandising. Makes it a little friendlier. It doesn't last forever. Gee I'd hate to see us discourage them and become this clinical looking town. Antiseptic type of thing. I don't think we want that Mancino: How long do you think of as temporary? Two months? Aanenson: Well, I think...each type of use. Now you have a produce stand, it may be 6 to 8 weeks. That's something we're going to have to try to establish with each different type. If it's the Christmas tree sales, probably Thanksgiving until the day after Christmas. So I think the one...seasonal. That they're leasing the space and try to give a time line for those. The owner occupied, the guy that owns tho...pot sales, things like that, I think we limit those to maybe a week, 3 times a year or whatever we decide... Scott: You're heading in the right direction. I like that. Aanenson: Because if they do want to sell brats out there once a year... Ledvina: Other than that, I guess I support, generally I support the ordinance and I think it's reasonable. Reasonably good effort. Conrad: Unless there's anything else, Ka~ I. don~t think we need a motion. Just go and do it and then we will, it will be a public hearing when it comes back. Okay. Farmakes: We should be aware too that there's, the Highway 5 situation, the sign ordinance is coming up. The architectural ordinance is in there. They're all sort of merged together. I think it wasn't necessarily planned that way but we have to be aware I think that there may be a perception to the Chamber that we are being anti business on some of these issues. And we should be aware of that potential and try and deal with that through communication. I know the last meeting we had, Brad stood up and said that for instance the parking ordinance was anti business. And you were talking about the signage package and saying, when in fact_It was half of the committee were members of the Chamber but they weren't part of Market 12 Planning Commission Meeting- September 15, 1993 Square. Well, I mean I think we need to be up front with that and let people know and talk about that. Address that every time it's brought up and try to be educational about that. Especially on tho intent statements of what these things you're accomplishing, rather than arguing. No matter how you do it, it's going to affect somobody*s business in some particular way and I think that the perception is that the people who are sitting on the Commission don~ know anything about me trying to make a living in the business world and you're arbitrarily making restrictions on me when I'm trying to make a living and pay a couple of people and pay my bills and pay the taxes and so on and I don't need that type of bureaucracy thrown at me. In a way that's easy to come up and say and the opposite direction is kind of hard for us to come up wi~h these ordinances to make a commullity that we want to live in. Scott: It's an interesting circumstance because I know that on the sign ordinance, even before, I mean when, before things got serious, I got a call from Paul saying Joe, we're going to do this sign ordinance. Can you give me some names of some people on the Chamber of Commerce who'd be interested and that's how Kevin McShane got on there and all those sorts of things. And I quite frankly don't have any sympathy for business people in town who don't get involved in the Chamber of Commerce because Kate sits on our Board. She's at every Board meeting and there are a large number of people who get involved in this kind of input, but I have no sympathy for business owners who don't get involved in the process and make this is a very, this is a commercial for tho Chamber membership obviously. But if they want to get involved and they're members of the Chamber, they'll know what's going on and they will have the opportunity to have input. If they don't, c'est la vie. Farmakes: We're going to have to know that it's in someone somewhere's advantage to put up a 40 foot pylon signs down the main drag of downtown so that they can be seen from Highway 5. It's to someone's advantage and someone's going to want to do that. Who and when we feel we don't think it's fight, you're dealing more ascerteric things. You don't think it's going to look good or I think that every time that comes up, particularly from the developer's standpoint, it's going to make them far more easier to sell a lease if they have that 40 foot sign. Scott: Then you can't, then another thing too is, you can kind of, I take a look at the Target situation is that within probably 2 to 3 months, the way Target markets, within 2 to 3 months of the time they have their grand opening, everybody who could potentially buy stuff there in their market area will know where it is. So a 40 foot pylon sign, you know. And I can see from a developer's standpoint, you know for rents, for leasing and tlmt sort of thing, they have the opportunity to say well we're going to, this is the signage and signage and parking are the two hot things when you're trying to lease property. But then we also have to take it with a grain of salt because obviously they want the world so they can give part of that world to their lessee's. So when I hear business people talk about th/ngs, some of them are very, very 13 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 good at explaining, you know this is what I really need. Very straight forward versus the embellishment and I think as a Planning Commission, we have to see through the embellishment and kind of cut down to what do these people really need. Conrad: You have to give them reasonable exposure. That's a fundamental thing. That's part of the business. It's just where is, what is reasonable and whether it be, I can empathize. I work for a lot of people that depend on signage and Jeff, you know a lot about signage. Farrnakes: But we don't seem to argue the intent. It's just, you know Brad was up here and he's...he wasn't arguing the intent. And that's what really seems that we should be communicating on. What the intent of what we're trying to do. The thing...come back on something that would fit in to how they're doing something, fine. Come forward and say Conrad: But it is, boy these are tough issues. Signage for services. Signage and strip type malls. Compare what's on the Frontier building. That doesn't light up but is relatively ugly. We don't find fault. At least I haven't heard a lot of fault with those signs but they're not attractive. They just don't light up. But we find a lot of fault with the ones that light up. And we find a lot of fault by putting more than 6 per running feet on 100 or 200 foot building. We find a lot of fault there if they're more than 14 inches. But go out and take a look. The signs on the Frontier building are not a piece of art. They're pretty ugly and again, it's tough to come to these conclusions. Or come to, not to a conclusion but come to what's the style for Chanhassen. I don't claim to know it. I just know that reasonable works and if you give them some reasonable exposure, nobody's going to complain and then the standards really make sense beyond that. To aesthetically keep Chanhassen a good looking community. Farmakes: I said the same thing...wo're looldng for a reasonable type structures with reasonable type of quality. Scott: High quality. Conrad: See that's where, I think the high quality is such an important deal. Farmakes: But we still deal with minimums. I mean we're selling high quality. Our ordinances deal with minimum requirements. Conrad: You're fight. Mancino: Well I just want to add one thing, a little bit about the Tree Board. We are doing some new ordinances with landscaping and how much developer's can remove from the lots, 14 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 etc and we invited them to our meeting last Monday night and not one showed up so we are going to hold a second meeting on the 27th of this month hoping that developers will show up because they have a concern about what we're doing for tree preservation. So we're hoping that before we get it into the Planning Commission that we have reviewed it with them and we've listened to them and made some revisions or whatever. So we're very definitely on the Tree Board trying to bring the developers into the process and making sure that we communicate with them before coming here. Conrad: That's good that you're doing that That's the way tho process should work. They shouldn't come to the meeting of the public hearing and raise issues at thst point in time. Okay. CONTINUE DISCI, JSSlQN QF BQULEVARD ALTERNATIVI~ NQRTH QF HIGHWAY Kate Aanenson presented the staff report on this item. Conrad: Any comments? Ledvina: So we have to have, I saw three public meetings. Aanenson: We thought maybe just two meetings specifi~y on the plans and then one public hearing but if we need 3 meetings before we can hold a public hearing to go through the whole document. Ledvina: But how many public hearings do we need? Aanenson: One. Ledvina: One. Aanenson: Specifically we don't need a public hearing on the preferred alignment because that just needs to be an information meeting. We do need a public hearing on the Comp Plan Ledvina: How about the Environmental Assessment? Aanenson: The Environmental Assessment's...We don~t need a public hearing specifically. We just need information which we have held but I think in fairness because of looking at the land use. 15 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Farrnakes: Yeah, I would think that would be a good ide~..with the property owners. Man¢ino: We had a lot of property owners. Farrnakes: Give them an opportunity to come and verbalize. I would like to see an objective presentation bearing in mind that there was disagreement among the group as to some of those issues. Conrad: And who would, Jeff who would present that? Mancino: Barry? Farmakes: Well I'm assoming that Barry and. Aanenson: Barton-Aschman. Farmakes: Yeah but there were three...choices. There was. Scott: You mean Deb Porter? Farmakes: Deb Porter, yeah. It was primarily those three. Aanenson: Deb did a specific function. Environmental Assessment document. First of all we were trying to go with the hurdle that we felt uncomfortable with on the land use and Barry specifically...more than the study itself... Farmakes: There are some issues that are not clear. In other words they were washy. Aesthetically, monetarily and others are very clear as to where the direction would be from cost factor. From environmental factor. So I think the majority of what we disagreed with were issues where they were 6 to 1, half a dozen of the other. We need to go one way up or down and essentially it costs the same amount of money. The EPA is...same and it was more or loss issues of long term use. Conrad: How about the issues Jeff, and the ones that sort of got me going a little bit were when the developers, and it could have been Brad, stood up and said that when tho one alternative that's further away from TH 5, that is restrictive. That is this. That is that. That doesn't help. It's going to hard to sell that property. I need, I personally need some perspective on. 16 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Farmakes: It's long term use. Whether you're medium or high density or, right now the plan it's residential so I mean it's. Mancino: But they certainly didn't want their land divide& They didn't want it divided up so what we needed to see when the northern route was put before us, was how much acreage is going to be here between the northern route and Highway 5. I mean is it a substantial mount? Is it 16 acres? Are we talking about 10 acres? How many acres are we talking about? Because every one of them stood up and said, we do not want our land divided. And of course we know a street, a road is going to have to go in there regardless because youYe going to have to get access. But they want to make the decision of where the land is divided. Aanenson: Just to add what Nancy is saying. We did do, in the study it does show the two alternatives and how the roadway, what size parcels would you have left so. Conrad: And I haven't gone through that yet but what I don~t understand is what they said was, that's not. It is a function of how much acreage but it's also they're saying, hey. We may not be able to sell that. Nobody, there may not be any buyers that believe in this. Farrnakes: You talk about market also. He was talking about marketing for a particular type of house versus another type that the market's out there for. So this is really a microcom of just about everything that we%,e doing here and dealing with the growth issues. Development of retail issues that are coming up on TH 5 and TH 41. With the Mill's property. Small scale commercial. Residential. High density. It gets into the industrial areas. Just everything. It's just sort of everything. It's a complicated long term, lot of information to digest and to look at. And like I said, some things are really clear. And other things are not so clear. Aanenson: As we see it there's really three major components. One is the land use. There were some areas that we thought was inappropriate land use and we recommended a change when you do the Comp Plan. And you kind of tie into that is the setting component. Where should the northern alignment be. And a third point is, we~vo adopted, we're look/ng at really beefed up design standards and...but I think the critical part, as far as the time track that we thought we were on, was trying to get the land use and the road down first but now wehte got the extra time. I think it's going to make sense to go through this in detail and get more public input and not have so much pressure and making good decisions. Scott: You know what would help too I think is a field trip. One of the things I had a conversation with Diane and she just said that Southwest Metro would be more than happy to come with a couple of vehicles. 17 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Aanenson: We'd have to do that with the second meeting in October. The first one in October. Scott: It's like get on the bus and go to this thing and drive up the hill and get out and walk around and say, well ifs going to. And then make sure that someone can say, well the northern route is going to be coming through here. Not around here but someflaing more specific because based upon our. Mancino: I think I brought that up that thafs something that I did. I walked. Scott: I've already been there but it was in the winter on a snowmobile you know. Mancino: ...part of it to see what it feels like. How close to the mad you're going to be on the southern route. How much noise you hear. Just everything. Aanenson: I thought ifd be good just to go over the major goals that we're looking at and try to preserve as much topography and just to get the feel of it. Scott: That would take half a day probably. It took me, a friend of mine gave mo a snowmobile ride up there during the winter and I could only kind of approximate but I was out there for 2 hours. Aanenson: Maybe we could start a little earlier than thac Scott: Guided tour you know. That would be really helpful because I think we could all stand there and see and look around and envision whsfs going on. Conrad: Tagging onto that idea, it's totally different but Brian wanted us to go out to the Arboretum and I think we really should take a look ac That issue's going to resurface and the concern about buffering the Arboretum. Ledvina: For cakes and tea. Conrad: Yeah, we could do thac But I think whether ifs the same thing, maybe that's too much Kate in one day but I thought that was such a good idea of Brian's that we go out there and know as we're putting industrial or whatever it was around their perimeter, what we're doing. And I think it'd be a chance to let Peter Olin lobby us too, which in this particular case I wouldn't mind. I'd like to hear rationale for buffering a buffer, which is always. 18 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Farmakes: One of the most controversial things that we probably did was the Mill's property issue. Or recommending that that... Maneino: But that was pretty much 100%. Farmakes: But what I'm saying is, that particular issue, essentially the City has been avoiding in making a firm decision on and it's sort of converged where that decision then had to be made. Even on the Comp Plan it was a study area and even when the U was loolcing at, how could you put a large scale commercial there and so on. They're certainly trying to do everything to envision as to how that would work if it did and I think 2 or 3 meetings ago we had the Mill's representative here and going over and went through some story about how we were in cahoots with local business owners to keep competition out or something. I never got that impression at any of those meetings. In fact the lawyers were there...as far as I know taking notes and I don't recall one instance where we, we said don~t you have anything to say? Don't you have anything to tell us about when we stood up and said, Fleet Farm is. This is what they are and basically he said, this is what they are and I conveyed that, this is what we will be. And apparently he spent a year listening to us and either he wasn't informed about that or he just knew that it just wasn't going to hat~en and he was just putting in his time. Conrad: Okay. Mancino: Are these going to be separate work sessions or are these going to be part of our planning. Aanenson: ...field trip idea came up. That might bo a good way to kick it off and do a separate meeting. If you want to do it on a Saturday morning or something and spend some time. Or if you want to take a regular Planning Commission... Scott: We can't do it at night. Aanenson: Well, we'd have to start earlier where we had enough light. We'd have to start at 5:00 to 7:30. Scott: Sure, or earlier. Mancino: What time does it get dark now? Aanenson: Or a Saturday morning. 9:00 to noon or something. 19 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Conrad: Ifs almost got to be a Saturday morning. Scott: Early. Farmakes: On the issues...development too, we should probably be kept updated. Scott: Which one? Farmakes: Well, there's a whole slew of them during the year meetings. There's been a whole slew of people who have threatened lawsuits and we should probably be aware of how we should state our opinions or we might need some advice as to how do you respond to that? Or how the city wishes to pursue that...saying things on the record. What positions we should take and shouldn't take. Mancino: Actually they calmed down as the meetings went on but the first few meetings it was like, we're going to court if you put a road through my property. Aanenson: ...make a decision based on Findings of Fact. Farmakes: For instance, as I said with Mill's situation. There was some story there that... Nothing in any of the meetings I was at that they were conveyed at... Conrad: So we have one general meeting first Kate and then go out and take a look. Aanenson: Or maybe go out and look first and then kind of do an introduction of what they...goals and then we can sit down and actually go through the document. I think.., maybe that takes 2 meetings and then maybe 1 or 2 meetings on the architectural stan~& and what we're recommending for additions for design. Farmakes: One thing I'd recommend before we start having...on the presentation go over carefully what the intent. Aanenson: That's why I'm saying. I think we can do that on the field trip and end up at the Arboretum. I think thafd be perfect. Farmakes: Because our meetings got so long and dragged on for so long, I think some of that got a little cloudy after a while. Aanenson: ...well we wrote our own intent statement for the master plan. 2O Planning Commission Meeting- September 15, 1993 Farmakes: Yeah, but we even changed it though. When we started out we kind of went back to that afterwards because it is such a complicated, multi faceted thing. Mancino: I did fred an error in the land use. The color rendering of the land uses. Aanenson: So I'll try to set something up for that in October, If you have a certain date that doesn't work, just let me know. Harberts: First week of October I'm out of town for the entire week. Scott: Is anybody duck hunting?... Ledvina: October 9th? I can't make it. 16th is fine. Aanenson: 16th? Mancino: 16th sounds fine. Harberts: What's our time? Aanenson: In the morning and we're going to be riding on your buses. Harberts: Is that a request or a demand? Mancino: Can't we do horses? Conrad: Do you have an all terrain vehicle? Ledvina: I just scratched the surface of this document but I'm finding it to be excellent in terms of ifs format and the readability and everything. I'm really, I think this is great. Aanenson: A lot of work done by the Task Force. They will be invited to the meetings too. Ledvina: Well I think they should definitely be commended. Hard to say it in just a couple of sentences but it appears to be excellent and complete. Mancino: Both of us, both Jeff and I were on the whole task force and we were both also on the design, architectural design specifications. 21 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Farmakes: ...signage that deal with other problems that we've been dealing with for years I-Iarbe~: Is there a need for the, with all the development going on in the city, that the Council considered accepting this as a preliminary concept? I don~t know if that will help enable to guide that type of development? Aanenson: Well, as a matter of fact, we do have one of the first projects...coming in on the corridor and I gave these documents to them and will be referencing architectural standards as we review that project so even though it hasn't been adopted, we're using that. Harberts: And we can do that? Okay. Aanenson: Ifs going to be a PUD. Harberts: Okay. You're lucky. Mancino: What about being more far reaching on that? I'm thinldng about Highway 101 where we're looking at the Mission Hills PUD with the commercial abutting TH 101 ? Aanenson: Why not?... Ledvina: A question... Aanenson: That would be natural habitat in the future. Ledvina: Okay. But I was just wondering what it is. It doesn't identify. Conrad: Ifs 8:30. Anything else on this issue. Anything under New Business? NEW BUSINESS: Mancino: I would like the staff to look at redoing or amending the ordinance for subdivisions about setbacks between, what is in Galpin Boulevard where we have the new Rotflund subdivision. That first house is so close to the road and I~te talked about this with Kate a little bit. That if we go ahead and expand Galpin Boulevard to 4 lanes, which we would probably do in 10 to 15 years at least. IN, e kind of been told that and I live on Galpin. That that will be so close to the house that there will be tremendous noise and all sorts of stuff going on around there. Is there a way to get more setback between the corner lot on the subdivision and our roads? 22 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Aanenson: Dave Hempel and myself did look at this issue and I think what we would recommend is that when we do have a lot...collectors, we do require larger setback... By the time you get the berm in there, ifs going to be taking up a lot of th~..front and having a narrow lot, we would...lot width on those. Scott: Something else too is kind of not necessarily new business but I had a chance to talk with our forestry intern and I think that person would be a great addition to any Planning Commission meetings where there's any sort of, well actually he should be at almost all of them. It was very educational and I think too, from talking to him and also going about town and looking at developments that are in process, there are few developers that are not taking this tree preservation stuff very seriously and unfortunately I've been contacted personally by people who have purchased homes and I think we all got some letters in one of our packets where, perhaps it's not the developer but maybe it's the builder or someone is, the snow fencing isn't going up. Staff's getting compacted. They're filling things in and I would even go so far as to consider a fee per lot based upon, we're doing tree inventories now. A fee per lot with some sort of a tree evaluation and then some sort of a window where the developer, a responsibility party is financially liable for those trees. Aanenson: That's the ordinance that the Tree Board, Nancy and they're working on right now. That is part of Jeffs duties. Our forester is to go out and go through that subdivision. It's his job to make sure that the fencing gets out in the right place... Scott: And it's great because it's a little something. It's nice to talk and do all this wonderful stuff but if we don't have somebody knowledgeable going out, so I was very, very happy to see that. Aanenson: As far as the other issues, that's part of what the Tree Board is looking at. Significant tree preservation and what we do... Farmakes: There's primarily two things that keep on coming up OVer and over again. One is the trees plant or somebody moves in here and the tree dies back a/ter they~,,e moved in. The other is lake access. You might want to suggest those for the newsletter that the city sends out. An explanation of what lake access really means. And what the city is, you know we get these letters of mediation. What is the fact of...issue between the builder and the person who's buying the home. They should know what the city is responsible for and what we're trying to do and what in fact the builder is not doing. We hear these things over and over again. I don't know how to, they're the same things. The same type of things. Truth in Housing type thing where if these people were educated before they buy, and I don't know if that's the government responsibility really. It would be good not to ask the salesman. 23 Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 Scott: It's a shame to see well educated individuals start a sentence, but the realtor said or but the developer said and you just kind of go, shake your head but then you realize. On the other hand, there are people who are, who's information and expertise are being relied upon by those who haven't made themselves odu~ on those things. Man¢ino: And it's happening from some of our best developers. Thafs what bothers me. Farmakes: 90% of people who buy houses, I can guarantee you believe that the Building Inspector that comes out from the City is guaranteeing that the work is done correctly and that's, that's not what it is. And I don't know whore people get that information, unless it's taking somebody to Court which is always tho most expensive but good information that you can get. But it sure would be helpful I think if we had a primer or something. I don~t know how we'd get it to get people to come. You don~t get a newsletter unless you've moved here. But it sure would be helpful if people knew that. In particular if they purchased lake property or property where they have a beachlot available or whatever. We really need to make these people aware of what they have and what they really don't have. Conrad: It's a good thought. Mancino: I was going to say... Conrad: Yeah, it's how you do it Farmakes: Yeah, that's it. Conrad: You know you feel, they're real naive. We're all naive. Farmakes: And should the government be doing that? I hate to soo these people come in and they're hurt, both financially and they're kind of defenseless when they're in here and they really expect us to do something about it. Conrad: They wouldn't, ,l'off they wouldn't even if we gave it to them. You only get concern when it's negative. When it's happ~ing. You don~t take tho prec~a~ons. Okay. APPRQVAL OF MINUTES: Conrad: Any additions, deletions? Ledvina: I have a correction to make. On page 17. This is regarding the Pryzmus application. We talked about condition nomber 15 and Nancy had made a friendly Planning Commission Meeting - September 15, 1993 amendment to that condition and it didn't really get in hero. And the condition should read, if any of these conditions, number 2, 9, 12 and 13, otc, etc. The any of these conditions did not get in there so if we can make that change. Conrad: That's pretty good Matt. I'm impressed. Any other additions? Deletions, corrections. Minutes are noted. CUFY COUNCIL UPDAT~ Aanenson: Monday night City Council did approve Tower Heights subdivision subject to resolution of Nez Perce and the Shamrock development which is on Audubon, just to the west... Harberts: And what about Colonial? Or was that a discussion point afterwards? Aanenson: ...3 instead of the 8. Conrad: I was real impressed with the City Council. They reconsidered the issue and a 4 to 1 vote they went back. Back to what we recommended, 3. They had gone up to the 8 the first time through. Aanenson: And at the next City Council theyql be adopting Findings of Fact for reasons... Conrad: And this will be in Court when? No, I'm real impressed with the City Council. They did a very nice job of revisiting the issue. Harberts: Did Pryzmus Interim Permit go to City Council? Aanenson: No. That will be on the next City Council. Scott: Has he called or anything? Aanenson: No. That will be on the next City Council, on the 27th. Conrad: Okay, anything else? Scott moved~ Msn¢ino ~eeonded t~ sdjoum the meeting. All vol~i in favor ~md lhe motion csrded. The meeting wss sdjoun~ at 8'.4S p.m. Submitted by Paul Krauss, Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 25