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PC 1993 12 04CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMI~q$ION SPECIAL MEETING DECEMBER 4, 1993 Chairman Batzli called the meeting to order, and then turned it over to Vice-Ch~ $oe Scott at 11:15 a.m. MEMBER~ PRF~ENT; Ice Scott, Nancy Mancino, Diane Harberts, Ladd Conrad and left Farmakes MEMBERS ABSENT: Brian Batzli, and Matt Ledvina STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss, Planning Director;, and Bob Generous, Planner H PUBLIC PRESENT: Bob King Bruce Mattson Dan Beckman lolm Meyers Tony Olgh Tim McCoy Brian Burdick 6122 Arctic Way, Edina 2020 Crestv~w Drive 6895 Chapazral Lane 7171 France Ave, 5437 Grand Ave,, Mpls. Byerly's Architect CONTINUATION OF DIS~SSION ON CONDmON~,I. U~E PERMIT FOIl MULTIPLE BUILDINGS ON A SINGLE P?,R_CI~L AND SITE PLAN Il~NmW OF ,~ 64,132 SOUARE FOQT ~UPERMARIO~.T, A 2~100 SQUARe. FQOT IIETAH. BIJ]LDING~ AND A 7~000 SQUARE FOOT COMMF. RCIAI. BUll.DING ON A 13.11 ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED BG, (~ENF. R~L BU~INF~ D~t~fRICT AND LOCATED ON LOT 4~ BLOCK 1~ WEST V~.LAGE 2ND ~,DDITION~ T.F. JAMF~ COMPANY, Charlie lames: ...Architecture and then went on to get a masters degree in m'chitectm'e from Harvard University. And I'd be happy to...your concerns and answe any questions. We prepared the cross section that you had asked for. I guess one thing that we've thought about at this time is that we are going to, not going to see, we're going to show you how we would propose to handle a pylon or rnonun~t sign but at this time we're not going to, we're going to ask you to assmne, and we're going to nssume that we're going to ~ the ~i. gn oz~Hnance and what we'd like to do is come back in with a conuncun'al agreement. Set of covenants and show you everything in infinite detail of what we would propose to vary from that ordinance. At that point the decision is entirely your's whether you wi,h to do that at that point in time or not. So we thought that might-remove one more cloud of uncertainty plus it gives you something in the future over which you have absolute control on that particular issue. But we can show you the pylons and that sort of thing but at this point I guess I'd like to have Mr. McCoy respo~ w gome of the quegtiong. Mancino: Would that come back to us? If it won't come back to us. Krauss: Sign covenants, yes. That's not an uncommon condition for the Planning Commission to do. Farmakes: Does this also include the..that we're seeing here or the pylon or however. It looks like a monument sign. Generous: Yes. It would exce~ what the code would require. Krauss: But if you would prefer to have the whole package come back before you... Farmakes: I would, I guess at this point, I'd rather see it piecemeaL I don't know about the rest of you. Charlie lames: I guess my thought in doing the sign; and correct me_ if I'm wrong Paul but I read somewhere that aren't all pylons under the proposed ordinance going to be a conditional use or something? I don't know, you gave me some handouts about your, one of the things that you're worldng on a new sign ordinance so we're kind of between the old and the new. That was another reason that we decided, even if we get it uppmved now, you've got a new tmtinance corning in. By the time we get aroond_ tO hanging them on the bnilrllng, or whamver so, but I guess what we wanted to do is the same overall coordination of how we're going to incorporate the same materials and the same design elements in the montunents and pylons as we are in the buildings so the whole project has an integrat~cl feel. We use the same mal~lls out there but as far as the height of the letlx~, we'll come back on that. We'H have a legally binding contract between the city and our firm that you would be able to use, if at that time you had decided that you woulcL..that we were talking alx)ut. What we were going to be looking for is to come in anywhe~ from a fourth to a third of what the allowable area is but we just want one sign that's the Byerly's component to be larger than the maximum. Everywhere else in the center fight now we comply but it's the issue on the Byerly's sign is larger than the 80 square feet that is allowed by code but you...a third or a fourth of what's permitted so it's kind of, it's one of those kind of issues whe~ it's how the code was drafted perhaps and not... Tim McCoy: Good morning. Perhaps it'd be easiest if I set this up on here to show you. Okay, what we have prepared here are three cross sections through the site in the north/south direction. The first cross section shows the entry driveway at Byerly's as it goes all the way through to the townhouse project This is the pmpe~ line at the south out at West 78th Street. And this is approximately thc, I guess it's about a 2 1/'2% slope up to the entry of the Byerly's store. This is drawn at 1 inch equals 50 feet in this scale and I'll probably speak to some of these issues from this lower section because that's essentially a blow up of this back half. That indicates some of the grade elevations that were prepared by J~m Hi]] and Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 Associates and also show some of the relative floor and roof elevations as we've got them designed in the "retail" portion and the Byerly's relative to what the elevations are at ~ floor slabs of the townhouses. Thi.~ particular section is through the center of the retail space. We have a more severe situation to deal with here in term, of variation in grade. Our top of the floor slab in here is at 977 in the reutiL Up at the multiple family housing, we're up at, that's 1005 in there so we're up about 30 feet from the floor slab in here. We're proposing to carry the parapet wall at the back of the retail area up to the level of about 996, which is still about 9 feet below what the floor elevations of the multiple family housing is up on top of the hill, Now one of the potential advantages that we have in the remfl space relative to the Byerly's where we have less flexibility in tenns of where we can locate those rooftop mechanical type nnits, is that if we want to try to locate these, which we do, back towards this parapet wall, it will be a more effective sareening in here partially because we'll have shorter rungs and mare flexibility to locate those where we want. We don't have to service freezers and coolers and all the various functions ~t they've got in the supermark~ So that's one thing that minimizes this greater height diff-erentiafion between the retail space and the townhouse area. And in the Byerly's sta~ once again we do have a less severe condition in m~ns of grade variation to deal with. We're up at 996 at the first floor elevation of the townhouses. We estimated in here that we would be up at about 100/5 at the second floor. Bob Generous gave us these floor elevations of the townhouse project. We're at 982.5 down at the floor elevation of Byerly's but the most imp~t thing here of course is the Wp of the parapet elevation as we're proposing presently. That's at 1002.5, without getting you all confused with all of the numbers here. The Wp of the parapet, at the back of the Byerly's is about 6 1/2 feet higher than what the floor elevation is at the townhouses directly behinrl it. A couple other things that we've tried to do to give us mare flexibility in terms of where we might locate rooftop mechanical equipment is that we're going to be developing a compressor me_zT~in~, enclosed, entirely enclosed over the loading projection at the back of the Byerly's store. I mean that will have louvers which we're certainly going to try to put into the south side of that for air circulation and so forth. The other feature that you probably saw the other night in terms of the raised entry to the Byerly's...is something that we would like to develop some mechanical...house also that would probably have louvers on the back or whatever but nevenheless...a condition where you could enclose some of thi~ rooftop mechanic~ equipment and what would not be screened, and I don't know what that is right now. I ~ it may just be by necessity that we may have to locate some things towards the center of the roof that we would certainly screen with a trellis and type of thing or whatever. And off, times the conditions that we run into is that we'll propose certain equipment that we know is going to have to be screened, will be visible from various surrounding site locations. But after that, typically what we do is we go around with the building o/C:wial and he says, oh. You'd better take care of that one. You can see that one or there might be some condition on the job site where we might relocate it slightly or make some modification relative to what was originally proposed. But if you've got any more questions, which I'm sure you do, relative to thiA I'll Planning Commission Meeting - Decem~ 4, 1993 try to answer those. This, once again, is the top of that mechanical mezzanine that we're proposing to develop on wp of the rear londing nren far the project. Scott: So that's a 50 foot wide section that's right inbetween the two rear most loading areas? Tim McCoy: This? Scott: That piece right there. Tim McCoy: 'I'nis piece? Scott: Yeah. Tim McCoy. That's 26 feet wide and I ~ it's. Scott: Oh, 26 feet deep and 50 feet wide, okay. Tim McCoy: Another thing that we've done and proposed on the site plan, ~ getting feedback from the staff, is to move the trees that were previously shown at the lower portion of the slope up to the upper portion of the slope so that they could be more effective in umns of screening elements. And those are predominantly spruce trees and we do have some deciduous mixed in there also. Fannakes: Is the staged area on the cut away, the side cut away, that's notched as it comes down, is this the ~aining wall that they were disolssing? Tim McCoy: Right in this location? Farmakes: Correct So there'd be two walls then, is that what you're saying? Tim McCoy: There will be probably two walls because you do not want to carry the walls up themselves very high because then we start getting into reinfowing the retainm' g wnlls and so forth and we try to limit those to about a 4 foot height each with a maximum of 3:1 slope so it would require two walls. Fannakes: So the raising of the_would be moved up then to the second tier or what's the, what were you referring to when you're talking about pulling it up? Tim McCoy: When I was talking about pulling up the screening7 Planning Commi~ion Meeting- December 4, 1993 Mancino: Yeah, ~g to this where are, in your original landscape plans, where would the trees be on your... Tim McCoy: Oh, the trees were right down at the bottom in here. In both of these locations. Famudms: I see. So the drawing is showing them ~ pulled up then? Tim McCoy: Right. Fmnak~: I sec. Is thc indication that's shown on the fight of the plans, is that the building plan or the property line? To the adjacent ~. Scott: With the ver6cal line behind the Last tree? Famudc~: It's showing a person there that's shown out. Yes. Tim McCoy: That's the bnse of the townhouse. Parmakes: That's the face. So is that the nctual extent that they can...if th~ have a deck or is that the edge of the Imilding? Generous: They have a 30 foot setback and I believe they're at that. Fro'make: So is that the ime that we're seeing there? That's the setback that they cannot build on? Is thnt correct? Krauss: They also have landscaping up on top that doesn't show on this that's supp~ted too and in that 30 foot area. Fnrmakes: In the 30 foot nrea between the tree and the little person there or to the fight of the individual that's sitting there in the drawing? Krauss: Yeah. Well, it's in this area right in here. Thi~ area. Mancino: Paul, is that the back of the townhouse? I mean I don't know how the townhouses face. Krauss: That's thc back of some of them. It's the side of some of them. I don't have, some of them are turned so that they face an internal courtyard so there's a side wall somew~ Planning Commi~ion Meeting - Decem~ 4, 1993 Charlie James: It's in thc back of the staff report. There's a map on the second to last page of thc staff report. Townho~ I~velop~: The buildlng that you see, tl~se at~ what you would call back to back townhouses~ So each side of the townhous~ is a fi~ont fa~ and the driveways go in on that. This building h~ or that line that you're seeing there would be ~ the end of the building. Krauss: Yeah, they were designed for the most part to face on internal courtyards. Farmakes: So we wouldn't have decks going out to the south? Krauss: No, you're looking at the side walL_but the patio is facing east or v,-e6t. Farmakes: Not north or south? Okay. Harberts: It seems d~se. Fmnakes: Alright I flxink I undentand from this position. Scorn Maybe you can go through. We have the addendum to the staff report. I think that was very neatly, this issue number one. Second issue I think Nancy was one of your areas of concern. About the Vision 2002. Mandno: Yes, and I'm just...I haven't read this yet. Scott: Is there any other discussion of the Planning Comnfission about the view from the north? Has that been answered? Farmakes: The landscaping plan for this. I how that the property changes somewhat, or it raises as it goes to the west I bflieve. The height This type of effect or & notched effect would be continued then behind the property that's currently shows some drawings for potential development? Krauss: Oh you mean as far as...Powers? Famutkes: Correct They did a blank area that's to the left up there. The present drawing that's there. Krauss: Commissioner Fm'nmk~ I mean we honestly don't know what's going to go there but to thc extent that this is in effect n...ycah, ccrlainly. We'll try to do something similar. I Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 think you can look up the hill fight now and see how close the first model home is to the... Farmakes: Yeah, but it's substantially hi~cr too I Mieve. Krauss: And the slopc is stecI~ but it drops down. Farmakes: I have a couple other questions. I don't know if they can answer that in their presentation or not but can you go over a little bit for me the detailing. You're talking about limestone. You very briefly described some of the limestone with the brick and if you can clarify that on some of your drawings. I had a little bit harder time seeing some of the detailing. I noticed that there seems to be more extensive detailing on the cap areas of the building where say the clock tower is as compared to some of the detailing where the liquor, or the drive thru is. It comes out at a greater angle and so on. Can you elaborate on that a Charlie lames: I'll talk a little bit and I'll let Tim carry on here. I guess one d the mission statemeats that I gave the architect was, is that having observed the Target process here, I knew there was a sensitivity towards big blank walls and having read thc proposed draft of the Highway 5 corddor, there was talk in that about trying not to have this big monolithic walls and to have different materials mixed in. So although that hasn't been adopted yet, we*ye tried to anticipate some of those issues and my mission statement to the architect was try to givc us a building that has some variation not only in depth, but also in height and it's volume so wc have nice shadow lines and we create avcry varigated front appearance to the shopping center. So it's just not some long fiat typical retail strip building. And I talked about thc sight from thc hill and I talked about, and I guess the n~horc I used was like a Tuscan, Italian hill town you know where you see, in Italy you see the tall church tower or the clock tower or whatever and I said we want to have some refe~accs to some of the things that had happen~ in town. And so as you go and look at your fire safety and health building, they have the same pattem here and they're using what I believe is the spect~ block. It's a block that has an epoxy coating on it and what we're proposing is, this is limestone and what we're proposing is that all the accents on the building would be., this is a native Minnesota stone. It's kind of a little, Tim learned in architP.~'*P, ffc school about trying to use...so this is a native bfinnesota stone that We're trying to incorporate here into the project and Tim, maybe you can address how this stone relates in the arches and entrances here. Tim McCoy: It's a kasota stone which it would probably be a polished type of finish and we just happen to have a rough type of finish to this. This is the same stone that's used on the Norwcst Bank building in downtown Minneapo~. ldcntic~ kind of buff coated stone. At thc present time, and of course with Byerly's is that typically people associate something Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 that's more or less the monolithic brick building with them so they have not incorporated other rna~ into their buildings locally to date. So we've taken kind of a conservative approach in teaaazs of using stone with the development at the present time. Where we're got it shown right now is in all of the brick's pure and column areas we've got these little space groups between brick coarses and so forth so you have something like a foot of brick in there and then you have something like Ii 4 inch band of tho stono. We've also proposed using it in some upper areas just to give a little accent to some of those areas. And quite frankly, ! ~ we're doing some additional studies rela~ to how else we might be able to treat those and like x say, quite frankly at the present time we would rather come in mad show a more limited or conservative use of this. Or I should say limilp, d use Illld Ildd solxle, for instance, we may find out that we want to do the arch face or something ~ that in stone rather than brick. I mean that's one of the things we're still studying. But rather than come in and show a whole lot of stone in here, and then 2 months down the road or something ~ that say well, I guess we decided that we really didn't want to use that much. So the specific detailing of how it's used is still under study but in general we want to use it down at the pedestrian level where you can get that variation in the material is much more apparent. But right now all of these things have little stone~ horizontal endings in them. Farmakes: $o if I was looking at the verticals coming up on the waJn~oated area down below there, I'm looking at those little vertical directions. The little small square ones then would be the lirnesme, is that corz~? Tim McCoy: These veriticals7 Fannakes: No, on the lower $xea. The wainscoated area down below there. Tim McCoy: All of the horizontals are, if I may bring 'this up closer and it might be a little bit easier for you to read. Right now we have all of the horizontals for the project... Mancino: Oh I see. Now this is limestone? This band is lithe right he~. Tim McCoy: The little tanish colored bands are limestone. Thi, is limesto~. Farmak~: And then this is brick. The vertical brick. Tim McCoy: Right, excuse me. I thought you were referring to the vertical. Fannakes: And the limestone that you're talking about here, when you're talking about arches, would be. Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 Tim McCoy: Will most likely be brick but one of the things that we've done one skelch of is, gee what would it look like if we faced thc arch in limestone or whatever. But this is what we're proposing at the present time. Scorn Is the facade for Byerly's, it kind of looks like it's drawn where it kind of goes back maybe a brick and then out in back. Is that kind of the effect that's going to happen? Tim McCoy: Right. Scott: Is it a cornice then that's kind of coming forw~ out of the Wp? Tim McCoy: Right. That's what we're proposing to do. Is to corble the brick at the Wp so you get a little bit of a cornice line or a crown that goes arouncL Scott: So it'd be kind of a crown not only on the top of the Byerly's...the main enmmce but then also moving out horizontally for the Byerly's. Mancino: But not through here. Fammkes: I noticed you have more ~e derailing on the center than you do on the support nnlts that come out from the side there. So how do you, you don't see any limestone going up to the capping areas or you see those ns detniling on these areas in here? Tim McCoy: Just in some detail at various places that might rehtte to this module stone below. Fro'make: What is thc...made out of. Mnncino: The planter box. Tim McCoy: The plant~r will probably be a brick face and if we can't use a limestone wp, we'll use something like a cap stone wp, which is essentially almost like a concrete product but it's a nicer product. I mean we want to get something that's, it's...impossible out there for the...but you cnn consider it to be brick. Scott: Will there be any sort of seating area design or just strickly planter border7 Tim McCoy: Something that would be low. 16 inches high I think is what we've shown it ns, or something close to that anyway, which is a 16 to 24 for seating height out there. One of the things I should mention also that shows up at lenst on the new site plans that you had Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 there is that we wcnt thmu~ a whole range of different front clevation options with Byerly's in terms of full arcade, no arc. c. arch. no arch. full arch type of designs and this I think cvcrybody would agree represen~ somewhat of a departu~ for the store in terms of what people typically associated with it. We've lined up this feature with the center line of the driveway coming off of the existing...and so forth. We're always limited in terms of the amount of glass we get to work with in a lot of large retail users because they use the wall space for merc~g, so where possible we try to mak~ some type of featured elen2mt out of some of the thin~... Mancino: Now on the restaurant facing 78th, there's no windows thcr~ h's just on the east side. Tim McCoy: Yes, there are windows on thc east side. Around the corner. This is actually Wines and Spirits all the way along here. We do have an elevation...which I think is, if I'm not mistaken John, this will be your first local restaurant with windows in it. ~'ohn Meyers: Correct. Tim McCoy: Cotre~ so. Mancino: Signage wise there is no, is there anything in the ordinance that allows for...open 24 hours? Farmakes: Well, first of all I think that's a different package than the one I've got here on my drawing. So I'm not sure how, we'll be discussing signage at a later date correct7 Mandno: Okay. Tim McCoy: I should go back right here but when I started speaking about the additional drawing ~hes that reflect what we've got in these boards that we're showing the cross sections and so forth, is that what we've finally arrived at in ~m-ms of kind of canopy covered pedestrian way was a situation where we had the coveted drive thru grocery pick up and then we just, this is actually where the drive thru goes into the grocery pick up fight over here. But also on this side of the entry we've got an area that's about 18 feet deep by 50 feet wide that we're proposing be used as the transit stop in there. Put some benches in and so forth. Just a covered waiting area. One of the reasons why we didn't use the full arcade all the way out to the sidewalk line, or on~o line, excuse me, is the fact that because of the drive thru, the entry of the Byerly's store was already so far recessed from the oub line th~ we didn't want to aggen~te that even more. We would try to minimi~,~ that so that's why we essentially cut that, the covered areas to face. 10 Planning Commission Meeting - Decem_her 4, 1993 Mancino: We're going to have buses coming up here? Tim McCoy: No. I should show you in the site plan. What you're seeing here would be arches just st the face here. The face of thi~ comes across and then this little flatlm- portion is just over the driveway but here's the other covered area that I had indicated in here. And in times of really severe traffic or whatever, the day before Thanksgi~ or whatever, they found it desirable to have something that might be a little bit of a pull off in stocking lane in there. Thnt's about...3 cars in thcre...but what's proposed is that the mmsit bus can pull off the driveway that runs to the south, along the south of the center here and that people can sit on benches in there. Tim McCoy: Right. Harberts: The waiting area's covered. Tim McCoy: This area is about 18 feet deep and 50 feet long. Harberts: And you see the Ixnnsit bus...dmpping en~loyees off right here or waiting nrea right over there... Mancino: That concerns me. I mean... Krauss: We're talking about circulator buses here. Like we rode around in this morning. Tim McCoy: Yeah, we're not talking about MTC or anything. But one of the things that we've done also, after consulting. Haflx~: We didn't tell you about psrir and ride on here. Tim McCoy: We did have head in packing right in front of the center section of the retail space that shows up here, which is desirable for running in and out of the video store or whatever it may be but probably not the best thing when you've got a lot of trnffic going in there. So what we had done is combined the pafldng spaces that were located off the loading zone here and taking...little drive thru at the west side of the tmildivg. And we're still proposing to have some type of pull off lane up there where somebody can, whether or not we've got when people stop and... Mancino: Diane, do you have any concern? I ~ I do, and I said it aftgwards at the last 11 Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 meeting. I mcan we have all this parking in thc front and I'm going to walk from my car up to the front door and not only am I going to have people driving up there to get the drop off of their groceries but now we're going to small buses coming in through there. Harberts: Yeah, I guess that's always part of the question. I guess what I look at, from a public transit perspective, is that it's going to be signed. It's going to be designat~ in the sense that we've got where the bus will be laying over so people, when it's on a circulator or somewhat of a schedule, people will start walching for it. Because you know people are going to be exiting and enlm-ing out that same door where the bus is sitting. And so are they going to be in the line of traffic, or cross lraffic? Farmakes: Well they do have the option of walking along the arcade. Harberts: But if they're park~ over here, I rrean I can see people coming from this way and pulling in here and then there. You know people that are coming from this way, maybe...that I would be concerned with from a safety perspective. Mancino: That's what I wean too. Farmak~: I know but you also have, you can go this way as well You don't, yeah I see what you're saying about not having sidewalks but. Mancino: Because you cut, I mean I cut right throu~ the parking lot to get to the front door. don't go up and. Harberm: Well and with a bus too, you know we're talking what maybe, we're probably talking maybe a 2 minute, 3 rninut~ layover depeading if they're, you know if they're someone in a wheelchair, then you're talking ~ 5 or {5 rninul~s to board them and strap % Farmakes: But in the course of the day, how many buses would show up there? Harbe~: Well, if it's on a circulator schedule, it could be twice an hour. If it's demand response, then it's based on the demand of the public. (There was a tape change at this point in the meeting.) Harbem: I'll take the plans back and sit down with my people. Charlie James: We had a second place, excuse me for jumping up here but, on your sit~ 12 Phnning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 plan. We had a second place fight here where we thought that this is kind of the entrance to the shops and I guess.... Harberts: That's where ! was looking at too the other night. Chadie James: ...buses out here and aren't these big MTC things but they're more like a little Metro Mobility, little short thing. Harberts: Wash your mouth out. Charlie Janw~: Is that a bad thing? Well ! don't know. Harbcrts: They're lilre a... Charlie James: In any event what I'm saying is, we provklcd, when staff asked us to tak~ parking out of here, then someone had the idea well geez, mnybe we should have a place out of the ~ lane here where. Harbcrts: But is it covered? Charlie James: It's a drop off place but it's not a covered place to have them to wait. I me~ if they wanted, if the weather was inclem~t, they could wait under here. Harbcrts: And I think at this point the best thing to do, the condition that's outlined in the staff report is just to sit down and wozk with us and we can sit down and chat with these folks and then also bring in public safety. So I think that the condition that's in there is, there's opportunities that are workable. Farrnakes: As to the rehttive location to the grocery pick-up to the entrance. I know Byefly's in Ed!nh for instance has it on the side of the bnilding which is away from it but both our grocery stores, well one in F. Aen Prairie and the other one here in Shorewo~ that both have similar type of pick-ups next to the entry point of the store. I don't really see any danger problems there from a. Mancino: Well I brought it up because I go to the grocery store on Highway 7 that has it like this and I always feel when I'm going to pick up my groceries, that I have to be cardul of everybody going into the front door. Harbcrts: And it might be just as simple as just si~ing on the pavement in terms of a walkway. 13 Planning Commission Meet~g - Decemb~ 4, 1993 Mancino: And it's usually at peak hours, I mean it's not at 11:00 in the morning. It's not 2:00 in the afternoon but at 5:00 in the afternoon you get a long load of people in their cars waiting for pick-up. Harberts: And from our perspec~e, the circulat~ would be there more during the non-peak times. So like I say, the way it's written in the staff report, and the opportunities, it's just a matter of sitting down and flushing out the details. Farmakes: Well out of the lane of u'affic there, the distance scale wise, how many cars would that be7 If they're backed up. If they were backed up. Tim McCoy: It's about 130 feet. But we've got about 60 feet in here because I did scale that. Well I've got a scale here. Why don't I try that. John Mcycrs: Just so you know, you should mention that's double lanes through there also. It's two wide. Fammkes: So you're talking about 20 cars? Tim McCoy: Yeah, we're actually only about 8.~ feet in from the curb there which is about 4 cars and I go w St. Louis Park also. As a mat~ of fa~ I will be stopping there today before I go home. Fmmak~: The St. Louis Park location of Bycrly's? Tim McCoy: Right. On Highway 7. Mancino: Well Highway 7 is a Lund's. Charlie James: Mr. Chairman, motion to strike that. Harbens: Hey, I go to the Bycrly's in Golden Valley. I'm sorry. John Meyers: ...and we have some of them on thc side and quite frankly they'll work either way. The way it is here minlmiz~, we looked at all three sides. We looked at trying...a lot of time and Charlie knows. We drove him crazy with it but we looked at trying to do it here. We also looked at leaving some of the shops off. Pushing them down and putting one in here. Quite frankly this creates, or allows for the least amount of cross movement between cars, people and other cars. If you put it on this side, you're going to have cars stacked on the wrong side of the mad to turn in. This side, at least we're stacked on the right hand side 14 Planning Commission Meeting - ~ber 4, 1993 on the one or two days a year that it actually needs, they stack up. The majority of the time, even on a Saturday, you're not going to have the stack up. If you think of Edina or if you think even of Ridgedale. The Ridgedale Byerly's. Even though the drive thru is on the fight hand side, to pick up the parcel end of it, where the kids stand when they load, will be right at the end. So you really don't pick up substantially more stacking room by siding around to the side of the building. That's effectively what we figured out. And if you put it on this side of the building, they still have to cross through this tra~c again. So quite frankly this allows people to stay on the fight hand side. Right hand lane. They pull in on the fight and they come out and they stay to the fight. And so there's as minimal cros8 tratr~ as you ~ get. So that was one of the reasons that ended up the~. Farmakes: Does that cover your concerns now? Mancino: Yeah, that covers my concerns. And as long as they're going to work with Diane. Scott: We'll see the signs again and we'll see the, also the plans... Farmakes: I would ~ to lalk a little bit about the ouflot, or thc commerdal bnilding that's away from the rest of the development. Can you l~l me at this time is there, what were the restrictions then be on ~ lease for that building, since there isn't a current tenant. I know the plans...Can you go over the zoning reslrictions to that ~ building? Generous: ...con'unerdal, I believe a retail or office. Farmakes: We've had some cloudy interpretations of what retail and office has been in the past and I'm wondering if we have some idea of what's going in there as far as signage requirements. I know that we're not discussing that here and we'll do that at a later date but what are we looking at there? Are we looking at an Arby's or are we looking at a bank bnilding? Am we looking a pair of eye glasses sticking out of the bnilding? What are we looking at thee? Outrlie lames: If I could speak to that a little bit. I guess one of the reasons again, that this building ended up detached, was it's hard to say all this stuff without it just sonndin~...g~if s~ving or something but I mean we have really tried to put our best foot forward here and L..with John and particularly his, the CEO of Byerly's, this building for them represents another step up for them and we had months of discussions on getting them to go with anything that they, they're a very conservative company. So one of the things that we were trying to address here is the idea of the 2000 thing and the pedestrian thing and that's why this in essence, we had no idea that this was a conditional use when we went into this and that, everything that we're doing here and have in front of you today is a permitl~! use on a 15 ~g Cornmi~on Meeting - December 4, 199~ zoned lot and we're not asking for any variances. In the middle of this process we found some, staff found some ordinance smnewhere, buried back in that said you can't have more than two ~ on a loL And what we were ting to do, by putting this bnilding dow~ here. We could easily attach it up here but we think that what we're trying to do is respond to that part of the discussions about the pedestrian element and bringing something down towards the street and that was a trade-off. You know and that unformnn~y got us into a conditional use. But it was trying m, we've got a sidewalk going up here now and there's a sidewalk running along here nnd it was trying to not have everything bac~ from the ~'eet but try to have something that's architecturally integrat~ with the same rna~ and the same designs that will ch-aw thnt project closer to the street And we have two pnrties that we're dealing with on this fight now and one of them is a retniler that would tnk~ the entire spnce and the other one is essentially a service type ofl%e user who would tnke the entire space. As it happens, both of their space requirements nre 6,500 to 7,000 sqmtre feet. So what we were intending to show you here is this is how we had envisioned this coming in and if there's any change to this, we'll come back to you nnd we'H say, you know if it's going to have 3 doors or whatever but we felt that the intent here was to show you that we we~ meeting the ordinance in parking and the setbacks and open space and green area and the whole thing and if this is the best that we cnn say at this time, what this building's going to look like. Again with the stone being brought in nnd the nrches and this sort of thing. But again, the reason for that wns thnt it's sort of i~nL I think ns one of the commission members here pointed out, it's sort of a...peopie that go grocery shopping. They're not, you don't leave your house nnd say I'm going to walk up to. the supermnzket nnd-get $200.00 worth of groceries. I mean people tak~ their cars and so you know we all ~ automobile oriented. Most of us I'm sure came here by automobile this morning but you know I guess we're trying to give you something here you know. We were trying to pull something down and bring an element closer to the sidewalk into the ~ Farmalw. s: My question wasn't in regards to it's location. My question was in regards to what it's use was. Some of that you've answered. Maybe the stuff can answer a question in regards to, whatever goes in there, are they looking at separate pylon signs because it's a separate building now or7 Charlie Janms: No. Krauss: No, we wouldn't even add that as part of the conditions. It's on a shgle lot. As entitled to one pylon and that we would evaluate. In re'ms of uses though. Krauss: The building's not designed for that. I mean the building you're approving doesn't 16 Planning Commission Meeting - Decemb~ 4, 1993 Mancino: What if somebody wanted to change it in 20 years and add on a little drive thru. Krauss: It would have to come back through you, as a si~e plan al~rovsl for an im~msification of use. Charlie James: We're not drawing drive thru lanes. We're not showing gasoline. So if there's a departure from that, it lands us right back here. Harberts: I have a comment. A question. I l/kc the idea about trying to help us focus in on that 2002 vision. Making it more pedestrian oriented. Is there the opportunity to take it maybe, the way I see it, just a little bit further. You know we talk about the sidewalk going up that alley way or whatever. Well, whatever it is. Hey, you called it Metro Mobility buses. I can get tl~ too. But starting at West 78th S~et, there on the comer aud going up. Charlie James: I'm going to put my finger here L-ira1 of like a mouse on a microsoft window. Roll it where you want it to go. Harberts: Come to the im~rsection there. The entrance. Other way. Other way. There you Eo. Stop. Now go up just a little bit. Okay, now go towards thc building. Yes. And connect that sidcwali~ Can we put more sidewalk in there? Charlie James: Sure, we could. The element there is in then you're losing permeable, is that the word? I--IRl'b~: ImpcI'vious. Charlie Sames: Impervious. You're lo~ng green space. Harberts: Unless we put green space someplace else. Fannakes: Or unless you just run it down to the sidewalk instead of along the side. ~ust run it down. Charlie James: Down he~ you mean? Harberts: Right. Just somehow access that sidewalk. 17 Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 Charlie lames: Yeah, we could do that. Harberts: I guess again, I like what you're doing with trying to help us encompass our 2002 vision and I think if we can just put that sidewalk in, it's an element to help. Charlie Sames: Be happy to do that, sure. Haflm-ts: So I appreciate your willingness. Conrad: Is them a sidewalk entirely on 78th? Chaflie Jam~: It runs right along here. Conrad: All the way? Charlie James: Here and here. Down here. We went out and tied in here Ladd so it comes all the way through the project here. And we are anticipating in the future whatever's going to happen here. Believe me. I'm not... Conrad: I know. .. senior stuff down there Charlie. Charlie James: Well, actually the reason that was on there is I was told by some people in the city that by the time I ever got this built, I would be living there. They'd said I'd be...out in my walker. Hatberm: This is on public TV. Charlie lames: So anyway, in response to your question Mr. Conrad. We've shown the sidewalk extending down here so that in the future. Conrad: Yeah, I really like that. Put this back up. I don't know if we're moving into architecture. I've got a whole bunch of questions of staff on architecuu~. Harberts: Can I ask one more related parking question then? Conrad: Oh go ahead. Harberts: On the handicap parking stalls, I'm reading they're 13 feet. What happened to 16 feet? 18 Planning Commission Meeting -Dec, e~b~r 4, 1993 Kmuss: Well whatever it is, they've got to conform to the Uniform Building Code. I don't know what the right dimension is. Haflm'ts: Well I guess from my perspective we certainly see 16 feet because if soraeone has to transfer out of their car into a wheelchair. Can we just ask that you look at that? Look st 16 feet width parking stall for handicap. Otherwise you put 13 feet in and it gets totally Krauss: We can sure look at that. I honestly don't know what the approl~late dlme~_~_~on is. ~: I recall 16/eet so...no it was just my sidewalk and the disabled paddng spaces. Conrad: Yeah, put that back up would you and I'll try w integrate mis and be real quick. The other profile of the main building is mai pleasing. But then when you look, and this when you look at it in relation, it looks great but it's kind of wha~ we didn't want on ?Sth Street. So I'm trying to just challenge you know ev~ that's come up to us that's had a flat roof, we said go back. Now we have some nice buildin~ ms__h~_'~l~ here but I guess I'm real curious~ We've turned down banks and we've turned down a lot of things that l'esJly had a flat roof just like that so Paul, I'm curious. In your interpretation of, well we don't really have architectmal standards as such but how are you feeling comfortable with that design7 Krauss: Well I think it was Commissioner Farmakes who continually pointed out that we do not have, I mean Frank Lloyd Wright, the prairie design. There is no Chanhassen design... desire not to see that. That there's a lot of archil~mml diversity. Now what you're talking about specifically, with the pitched roof is a fa~a~r. And we have m~de developers put those on rather uniformally on small buildings. Conrad: And tell me why. Because it's an easy way to make it look betler? Is that. Krauss: Well it does make a building, well This is subjective but I think there's a consensus that it makes a building look classier but more importantly we have built, such as in the St. Hubert's Church, such as the Dinner Thestre which is a plywood bnildlng but has mansard. There are a number of si,.o~i/icant buildings in town that have in~ that as a design entity. I think Bill Mordsh poinUxi out that you look at Chanhassen from a distance. You see the steep...pitched roof of the St. Hubert's Church sticking up above the oak ~ and it's the kind of thing that we push quite strongly. At the same time, we've acknowledged that you cannot do a pitched roof system on a bi~ box building. ~ Squ~e does not have a pitched roof. Target does not have a pitched roof. Scot~ Market Square does... 19 Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 Krauss: No, Market Square does not either. Market Square has a few design elements that mimic a pitched roof. Farmakes: That's cotrecC..isn't the real asset he~ ofum for some reason we go to a pitched roof when we're discussing these things. When we get a proposal of a square b~jldlng. And really the issue I think the people are talking about, when they glob onto that, they're talking about issues of detailing. So many of the franchise bnildings that we ofam see in retail, and in franchi~ type of operations, are devoid of it. They have little or no detailing, h increases the cost per square foot of putting up a bnilding. It sometimes increases the mainlm~ce issues and they avoid it like the plague. And consequently we get cookie cutter type archit~'mre and we seem to be reacting to that by saying, well put a pitched roof on. Mancino: And it might be equipment on top. Fannak~: Well hiding equipment, sure. And_ a lot of the, I think the tn'ms that we lock into and when we talk about compatibility of archilrcture and so on, I get a little uncomfortable when we use words ~ that because they're subjective to the person who's interpretting them. What's compatible. Does that mean the same mass? Does that mean ~ it? Same color. There is a tendency here I think even to, at one time every building in Chanhassen was going to be gray. Farmakes: When you get locked into trying to put down in words what we're trying to say or think in our minds, we have a tendency to lock into son of a tnnnel vision that everything comes out the same. I understand what you're saying here and in~tion of the out building. It does not have the same archi~ detailing that you're seeing in the larger slructure. Conrad: And it's real clear that the main building is quit~ nice. It's ~ an immedia' to read. You don't even need to play around with that. That is..xeally proud of that But the out building, boy we turned down a lot of stuff that look~ likr that. Farmakes: The...although you can go to Florence and see pitched roofs, some of the angulnr detailing that they're using that con~ some of that And certainly the matm'ials that they're using where they, you don't have one building that's all brown. I mean you've got some nay. ual differences of the mare/al where you have a like color and a dark color and so on. We've seen other retnil areas out on the comer of 394 and 494. The Oxboro development The one in Edinborough. You're seeing some demiling~ These are not buildings n~y that have pitched roofs. In the case of Oxboro, or Edinborough, they Planning Comm/ssion Meeting - Deceml~ 4, 1993 actually did a little pitched roof corning. Thc building's fiat but they hnve it Uttle pitched roof coming out from the side of the building. And the, se are things that create shadowing different times of the dny to give the building depth ancL Conrad: So what do you think about the out building here left? Fammkes: I don't think that it's in line with the quality of some of the direction of the other building. What they're trying to achieve there. I think it could be. Perhaps if they broke up the tangent line across on the roof but again, they don't know who's going even in the building. So that's why I was asking if this building, if we approve this, are we approving this out building as well and not knowing what's going in there. They're going to come back for the sigmtge package but ff we're looking at, you know your comments are valid. It's a square, from the site but it seems to me that incorporat~ some of fl~se other elements that they have perhaps in the enlrance or so on. That they could, some of the corbe~g that came out. They could conform that building with some minor alterations. Scott: Are there some southern, do you have a southern and a western elevation of that smsll building? Mancino: Can the builder respond to this? To left's point of view. Farmakes: Well actually it's Ladd's questions. Charlie lames: I guess I'd just say that I can't bring you a finished building on that because we've got two parties that are vying for that fight now. So what I was trying to say to you, is look at this is my pledge to you. We're going to, this is what it's going to, we're trying to show you that we're concerned. We're trying to get it down to the sidewalk. We're going to try to incorporate the mare/ah. We had a requirement from this one user where they had two separate, they needed two separate en~ and they needed a certain amount of program space, of offices and this son of thing. $o we drew that up but, and so the intent isn't to say gee, this is nbsolutely, positively it. It's to say, whatever we do here is going to happen to signs, to everything down to the level of the street is going to have the same rnate~. The same design elements. The same references to the other pan of town and I'd be happy to come back to you and, ff you have immediate comments right now, and say well we ~ this or we don't like this or could you work on this or whatever, but I mean when we get this thing nailed down, this is the pan of the thing that's a conditional use. I guess is there son~ this is the problem that you get into when, I think you're so used to looking at PUD's and we're probably the first project that you've looked at in a long time and a lot of times in P UD's the city demands all these things and says we want this, We want this. Because we're going to give you something he~. Here we're coming in and we're saying, 21 Planning Commission Meeting - ~ber 4, 1993 we meet all the codes. We don't need any variances and the only condilional use that we're asking is one that came out of a result of us trying to please you with a detached building. But if you have concerns, like this isn't all in one plane for instance. This pulis out just like these purl out. It doesn't read that way but these are comi,~ out just lik~. Let me ut~ you along here. On this building, this is in a plane and then this pops out. Goes across here. Goes back in. Goes here. Turns the corner. Comes out. This is all pulled away from the building in different planes. This is'recess~. Goes along. Comes back out this way. Reads along this plane. This element steps out. Goes across. Steps back. Goes across. Go~ back straight. Goes over here. Comes out. Over. Out. Across. Back. And we've got that same thing happening here and on the corners. Farmnkes: I think that the issue that we're talking about was the tangent line on the roof. Courad: Yeah...Charlie, that's a HUIe. Charlie Jnmes: You'd like to see more of this? Conrad: Probably, yeah. I think that would do it. John Meyers: ...out the entrances. Conrad: Probably would do it yeah. Yeah. I think it's... Scott: A pitched roof is going to look silly. I think by raising them up. Kind of following along that line, it will lie thc two stmcttu~s together and I think you have a valid... Conrad: I really hate to play architect and I always have and I don't like Phnning Commissions to do that but on the other hand, we've gotten used to doing some of that as we monitor what goes in on 78th $ireec The main building just looks terrific you know. As I said before, it's a quick read. The shadows, from a distance you've done all the fight stuff. It's just neat. But then there's the contrast, then all of a sudden I look at the bpilding that you're putting up to make it more of what we want but it's real plain in comparison. And comp~ to the other stuff that we've tried to do in downtown, it's not there and it's Ir. ally d_~llng with the roof line and I really don't need to put on what we've been trying to do. I'd just like to build a ]itl:lc bit more charncter in and some elevation changes in that roof line and then I think you've got it. But my problem is, if I don't make those comments, I don't know that it's coming back Now you know I don't know that I get to see this again and that's my problem Charlie, Charlie J~: Well, here's what I would propose. We will, architects,..you wiIl respond to Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 all of this. We will make these entrances like this. We'll pull these ~ts up and it won't just be a western face, store front either. Okay. But also, if there's anything that isn't the same, I'll come back and see you again. It's kind of hard, it's a com:~t thing. I mean you do concept things in PUD's but I'm tryin8 to say to you, if I get these people in here and if we pull this up, _this is how it's going to look in the site plan and coverage ratio and everything. We'll put the sidewalks in there and then I don't have to come back. But if we change anything or if they say, no. We're only going to have one door or any~ing, then staff is going to kick mc back... Conrad: Well, and I want to reinforce you. I really ~ what you're doing and it's. really nice. Nice quality buildings and pretty and it's different than what we've been doing and I like some of that. But again, I appreciate how sensitive you are trying to be to where we're going Charlie in downtown Chanhasse~ I appreciate that. Charlie lames: Well thank you very much and I want you to know that this hasn't been something that we've thrown together in 2 weeks or whatffvcr. I can tell you that for instance on thc issue of circulation here in Bycrly's. When did we start that? June. I ~ just that issue. I've got a stack of reject drawings at least an inch thick, just on the issue of which side of the btfilding and how do we do that. And then we had to go back to them and say, to John's boss and say, we'd like to do some things a little bit different here and so we have been working on this, I first started working with Byerly's in January of last year. So this hasn't been 8omcthing that we've just kind of, you know thrown a bunch of stuff against a wall We've put a lot of thought and we're trying to put our best foot forward and sincerely bulld something that we think is going to look for 50 years in this community. But as Tim says, one of the things that he's always said to me, he says I'd love to buildings that would be great ruins 2000 years from now. You know. And so we're... Scott: Do we have any other questions from the Planning Commission? Farmakes: I have a couple of questions in regards to the ordinance. We're talking about this as a straight ap and I'm not sure that it is. This is in a downtown area correct7 In the business distfict~ Do we not have an ordinance that discusses the issue...vague, discusses the issue about compatibility issues? And issues of architccttuc. Krauss: Well it's been a long time, and I think Charlic's right, since you've viewed a straight subdivision. It's probably the Almi/Goodyear was the last one. There is an architectural review. And it's fairly vague as to exactly what goals you set for...You are being asked to do a CUP for that building. Now, as we pointed out, the CUP is not for any use, which is typically the case. Uses are fully consistent and permitted. The CUP is the fact that you have two buildings on one lot, which wouldn't have been an issue had it been a PUD but Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 time didn't permit that. But it is a CLIP and you know there's several, you do have some leverage. I think Charlie's indicated a willingness to respond to those issues. You know you can ask for that architecture to come back in front of you. If there's some acceptance particularly that the space where the building is, the space. The location is okay but you want to work out a condition on that parfiaflar aspect of the architecture. You feel comfortable with the Byerly's and the adjacent building and that can go forward. Farmakes: You pulled the building down which made it a conditional use to create a common areas to the left of the development. The retail development, is that ~? Aldght And that would not be built on at a future date, com~? Fannakes: $o if that was at the dty's request, I think we all kind of have that in our minds so what happened there. The other issue of looking at this is, in the future, ar in the imrmxiiate future I believe that this will be going to, not only the City Council for review but also the HRA. So we're not quite sure, usually when we talk about PUD's we know that the city is investing, and we're not sure on that at this point because the applicant has not...the same as we would any other type of development Not granted there's different forms of investment and different interpretations but I believe that the downtown, as I said, there is an ordinance because there's some latitude and I think Paul's reaffirmed that for us to make these comments. I fully encourage everybody to do that. And there is also the issue I believe, in the earlier statement that you're talking about variances in regards to the signage. So it's not like this is a straight application, and so it should be clarified. Scott: Diane, do you have another question? Harberts: I just noted in the staff report with regard to the discussion I had at the previous mecting with oh, semi trucks. Arc we guessing that the semi's will either come off of TH on Powers onto West 78th and perhaps off of TH :5 onto Market? Is the turning radius on Market onto West 78th adequate for large semi's? Audience: It is now. Harberts: Okay. That's what I figured. Kerber, I don't have any problem with Kerber. I guess overall, I know that some of the issues that you brought up Jeff. They certainly will probably be discussed and I guess we're here as Planning Commissioners with responsibility to look at this from codes and so on and then also we're here with our hats on as regdents. I guess overall I'm going to support the project. I think it's going to be a welcome addition to Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 Chanhassen in terms of the way this community is growing. I think what, it mak~ me all warm and cozy I guess to some extent you know with our last meeting with the willingness of the developer. With the players involved with Byerly's. There ~y are issues for discussion and I guess I hope that whatever level that those issues should be raised to, and discussed at, that they look at, you know as we talked earlier, about the vision of what we're trying to establish for our community. And I just offer.those comments to my colleagues here but I ca'tainiy like the project and what's really a welcoming feeling is the responsiveness by the owner/developer to really work with the community. That carries a lot in my feelings here. Scott: Any other comments or questions? Mancino: I just have maybe one nmre counnent and question about parking lot lighting. W'dl we be seeing that? And my comment is, is that I would like to see the lighting in the parking lot no higher than the roof line of the mnin building. And you're going to ask me which roof line. I guess I would say the lower roof line. What I don't want to see is coming south on, as I'm coming south on ~ and I see some lighting higher than the buildings so it becom a beacon in the night of this lighting. I'd like to see a little, not like what we have in front of Target. Generous: You could make that a condition of your recommendation_the illumination off site which is a half foot candle. There might be m building code. Mancino: Well I want to make sure that it _meets public safety, etc. but. Harberts: Has public safety, did they comment on this? I don't have my packet. Generous: They said no co~t at this time. They're most concerned about their access and... Hartm-ts: That's what my, yeah. Generous: As far as the cirotlation, they didq't have a problem. Fanmk~: We're showing a flag pole out in the building. Where are those? Those don't come under signage. I think those come under what? We're seeing flag poles... Well there's one drnwing that has flag poles on it. Krauss: If there is, the position we've taken in the past, and this is somewhat clarified hopefully in the new ordinance...is that if there's a sign up there that says Byerly's...or a flag Planning Commission Meeting - ~ 4, 1993 up that says Byerly's, we would consider that to be a sign. If it's an American flag..2qow this doesn't relate to this discussion here but we know that a _Pcrtdns is potentially looking at the site across the street. And Perkins has a number of issues with their 50 foot flag and most recently I think they turned one down in l~inneapolis. I think th~ were takea to Court and the city won. That that is an over rcpresen~on. That's not necessary to represent the nation and that itself was a sign. But that's not an issue here. Farmakes: So we're talking a flag pole7 It's not a line of flag poles7 Krauss: Well I guess I'd defer back to... Farmakes: We're discussing on the drawing here they're showing flag poles. Is that? John Meyers: If you go by every store that we've got, if you go by all the stores we've got and all of them have...Amcrican flag. Farmakes: So it's a singular7 There's no several flag poles? John Meyers: No. One fiat pole. If you go back to our Edina store that's right out on the corner. Ridgcdale's...I believe but all thc stores have them and it's not something we started in the last 5 years_If you go back to Golden Valley where a 9 inch flag pole has been there forever. It's something that we've always done. Fro'makes: Okay. We'll be looking at the monument sign then at a later date, is that correct? Krauss: Yes. Conrad: We're not commenting. I'm real comforl~le with signage as I see it. Jeff, I think you brought that up. Should we talk about it. Farmak~: No. No. I said they have a drawing here of, that they did for the monu_ment but that we can discuss at a later date when we discuss the signage at that point. Conrad: My last comment, and this is one for staff and it's, it mak~ it tough for me to vote on this conditional use permit. I wish it was just, I wish it wasn't. Because it gets into TIF and it's something that I don't even want to play with. It's not my job. But I'm curious. In the CUP there are two points. It t~ks about will not crea~ and this is something th~ tho HRA has to deal with but two points. Will not create excessive requirem~ts on public facilities. And I'm not sure where that one really goes. And another one. will not Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 smvonnding property values. I really do belicwe that two grocery stores can't sm'vive in Chanhassen based on nH thc stuff, you know over 10 years I've been around and we couldn't get anybody in and now we have 2. So my perception is that Festival will go out of business. My perception is that that will decrease the ~ value over there. Stnff, speak to me about that. Krauss: Well, I think you're reading. .. ~g that we've been drafting up for the last 4 or 5 months with a couple of CUP's and there is some standard language to that effect I guess we need an interpretation from the City Attorney but hone~y that language was supposed to deal with things like a contractor's yard going up next door to somebody's house. You know it wasn't any idea of guaranteeing a monopoly or some sort of b~in_ess sphere of influence. That's not the interpretation of that. We could ask for a clarification of that.. The CUP itself does not relate to the fact that there's a supermarlcc-t there. Doean't relate to it in the least. The only thing that the CUP is talking about is that there's two physical buildings of whatever use on one property and the fact that you have two buildings doesn't do anything good, bad or indifferent to Festival or anybody else. Conrad: I think commission mcrnlx~ I don't think my comments should relate to what we're voting on today actunHy. I'm just real interested in TIN money and, we've put TIF money into Market Square. And we have. It's been rcroutcd to stay in Chanhassen. It's not going to other places basicnHy so we've eannnrked it and so it is an investment in Market Square, right? Krauss: Well ff I could touch on that Again TIF financing is the tip of the iceberg about... The City of Chanhn~en has not invested a penny into Market Square or anything else. What we've done is we've taken the taxes that Market Square would have paid and through TIN re- invested that back in there to make it more am'active for development. F~makes: That's another way of saying the same thing Paul Farmakes: It's money you would have gotten but they get to keep it. Or excuse me, it's makes the...coming back. Krauss: The only thing the city would have gotten if you nssun~ that development would have occurred irregardless. Farmakes: In the first place. Egg and chickcm 27 Plann/ng Commission Meeting - December 4, 1~)3 Krauss: Right. And the presumption is with TIF, is that Mad~ Square wouldn't have happened. I mean you had thi~..This is a philosophical issue that the HRA is into more and more. Just what level of assismnco is actually validated to make things happen. And of course the presumption is that in the interest of moving the,~ funds back in, that thc city ia in a much betl~ position to get a much hi~er tax base in the long run, which benefits everybody. $o that's the simplistic version of TIN. It's also a fact that, and this gets into probably more detail than you want to, but that Festival, the lease on the Festival store was guarantee~ by their parent corporation for 20 years. Whether it's empty or not. I think everybody's hoping that we don't lose Festival. There's no intention to lose Pestival and I think the best of all possible worlds is if Festival decides to expand. Conrad: Well, they're not going to survive. You know Paul, that's really naive. You know they will not survive. buss: Ladd, I honestly don't agree with that. But whether I do or not is indifferent to the fact that you've got a site plan request for today. Conrad: Ah, absolutely. Krauss: The CUP that you're quoting, validly quoting, doesn't refer to the use" It just refers to the fact that there's two buildings. Conrad: Say that one more time. Krauss: It has nothing to do with the use. This is not a CUP for a church in a residential distri~ or a cone's yard or gas station or fast food. This is solely a PUD because you have two physical building footprints sitting on the same lot. That's the only aspect of this that makes it a CUP. Conrad: light I u~h~mnd that Farmakes: I think we touched on this at the last meeting. About being drawn into issues of competition and risk when the city winds up making, or not TIF. Trying to originate some destination for people to come to downtown. Particularly at the be~nnlng. I mean to create a reason for people to drive here. And the question whether or not it's something we should be discussing here, in the issue of planning where it seems to me that thi~ is somewhat more of an lIRA issue. Not to defer the responsibility but it seerm to me that that's something that we, that's not our charge. Conrad: It's not our charge unless, unless point 11. If you agree with the CUP, you have to 28 Planning Commission Meeting - Deceml~ 4, 1990 know exactly what point number 11 really means nnd based on what Paul just said, he probably is saying that we don't need to concern om'selves with point number 11 on the CI~. Famudw~: I'm not sure that _this development needs to be a conditional Conrad: Oh, it doesn't. No, he's only doing it to, because that's how, that's what we want. So you know, developer and Charlie, I'm not even, they're doing what we want in all these Farmakes: But the issue of property values I think is not necessarily the same as the value of your business. The value of thc building and the land that it's on. Conrad: You know but really, if you can't ~l buildings. Fnrmakes: But then they're guaran~g cornpetifion and loss. There's no risk in being in business. And again, it seems to me that it would be a bad thing for the city to get drawn into that argument. That we are in fact business pnrmers. That's, although it sounds good it's not factual. Scott: Are there any other comments before I ask for a motion? Farmakes: I thought this was an open discus~n, or we won't be making statements afterwards as individuals then correct? For the xccoxd. Harberts: That's the way I understood it. Fammk~: Fine with me. Then I have a few more comments. A couple brief comments on the architectmv,. I guess I feel a little uncomfortable, in particular with a development that's usually considerably higher cost per squa~ foot than what we'~e used to seeing on retail Making comments when we don't have the detail, and by the app~t's own admission, those are yet to be worked out. I would like to see some of the details come back here again but I don't think that I would at this point tonight I feel uncomfortable about voting on this. And approving it based on some conditions that I've heard here. But what I would like to see, I'd like the applicant to consider, rather than the smooth facing buildings that are a majority of Byerly's, to cross over between the old and new in Chanhassen. Consider a rough faced limestone. John Meyers: The brick that's used...is a rough coarse brick... Farmakes: The reason I bring that up...is somewhat of an identity o'isis. It thinks of itself as 29 Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1990 a small town that's been here for 100 years, which in fact it has but there's Unfommately not much left of the old town. So you have that mindset but you don't have the physical representation that typically you'd have of an old village downtown. It seems to me that you have an oppommity to do something different from your standard buildings which are very conservative and flat glass coverage to mix this type of, I call it waiuscoating or semi coveting and get the conlrast between the color of dark brown and the limestone. I know the city has an existing slrucmml lixnestone entrance for the Dinner Theatre and so on and it would be nice for the city to work that color in. Chaska now has several buildings, and Shakopee also, with Chaaka limestone. And Kasota stone also is different coloratio~ But to work that in. I think it's perceived as a sign of quality and of heritage here. And I don't know how much limestone they use in Florence but I know that it's...contrast here. I would like to see you use more of it in the detailing that you're using rather than just adding a little color. I don't know what that docs to your cost per square foot but I'd also like for you to consider at the top of the bnilding, on your capping and your corbeling to work some of that in. Or at least look into it. It also would, I think break up the brownness of the building overall and the flatness. It also, I think may be an argnmcnt to some of the proponents of pitched roofs and so on_ Some of the PUD applications that we went ahead with. I think some of the comments that were made by the people at the last meeting and issues of hey, they've got to build the same buiiding we had. Or that we did. So they're talking about physical representations of what they did when in fact those represcntations or things that they did were actually trying to solve a problem, or visual problem. I'm not sure we have to duplicate the same solutions to the problem. Although that problem exists there. Thcre are different ways to approach that and this is one of them. And again I come back to the issue of detailing, h's not something that we see a lot of because of the cost of it. Although when you look at percentage of the building, when you get into aesthetics, it's hard to justify cost and I know we get this with retail buildings all thc time. Particularly franchise buildings. Wc ask for detailing. We ask for these things because it represents character. There's not a lot of character that you're going to get with some of these, use the Ooodyear b~_ ilrllng as an example. You get Option A, B, C and D and thc black asphalt roof and a plain sided bac~ And they come up and th~ say hay, we don't want to put any more money into that because we're not going to make any money off of it, Then the community sits back and says, well we don't want a whole city of that, And this would really, this building would really change that I think, h's a nice building. I'd like to see the details that you have in those insets up above where you have little cross sections to the right of the V~me and Spirits. If you would work in some of that detailing when you come into those tiles on your out building as well as with the pieces that come up. h would take away some of the slab appearance of it and I think again, the issue of slab is another one that keeps on coming back hcre and I think that it's a reaction by thc commission and I think some of the citizens in the city because they see this slab thing over and over again. And since you're in thc business I think you can see the difference between an Oxboro and some of these, I'd say rliffcrent rem~ applications. What 3O Plann/ng Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 you have here and ~ retail building that we oflz~ get. And I think you've designed a pretty distinctive building and I don't know if my cornmen_ ts are co~e but, and I don't know how much that will cost you in additional funds but I'm glad that you preserver~ with coming up with an innovative use for that particular piece of property. I think it will be a nice addition to the city. Mancino: left, when you said you wanmd to see more details, what does that mean? Does that mean you want it to come back? Farmakes: Well the applicant said that he'd be willing to bring the building back, or the out building back again to show. I don't know how we work that in to the conditional use or if the applicant wants that. Mancino: But are you asking also for not just the commercial building but for the main building also with some of thc suggestions that you made.? Farmakes: I think we've made these points. I don't know if that's something that the lIRA and City Council can't hash out. I think what I'm talking about is basically how the material's finished and where exactly it's applied and I'm just critiquing. I don't think, you know unless the city starts investing in this building or so on that there's a question where you draw the line on that. You know either if they built what's proposed here, it's certainly a step up from what we've been seeing. I'm just talking about integration into other things that are going on in Chanhassen. The contrast between the kind of clean linear look that they have on nil their buildings, $omefime~ when you get an...mix going on with some of the older mare/ah and the newer facings, it comes out with a pleasant...I'H leave it at that Maybe we should ¢lal~ from Paul what's coming back and what isn't. Or what the npplicant is bringing back to us. I don't think that the intention is to hoki up this from going to the. Scott: No, and I've noted a couple of conditions. One involving transit and one involving Harberts: I've got 5 conditions. Scott: WeU if you have some conditions, perhaps you'd like to make a motion. Harba'ts: I wilL_if we're ready, let me take a crack at it. I'll move approval that thc Planning Commission recomnvmds approval of the conditional use pemfit/F)3-1 to permit the grouping of buildings on one lot, one building lot and approval of a site plan ~3-7 dated 31 Planning Commission Meeting - Decem~ 4, 1993 Nove~ 18, 1993 subject to the following conditions. Item number 16. That the word bus be struck and inserted with the word transit so it would read, locate a transit stop area. Condition to be added would be 21. The addition of sidcwe_lk connection between the out bnilding down to that sidewalk and staff would work With the applicant to work out thc best location for it. Condition number 22. That With regard to the out b~jlding, that the detailing of that out building, is the word match th~ main building and that that detailing information would also come back to the Planning Commission. Item number 23. That staff work With the applicant with regard to the comments made by Nancy with the lishts in terms of the height. Condition number 24. That the signage package return to the commission for approval. And condition number 25. That the Public Safety provide written concspondence proposed for ~ Boulevard, especially in the 4:00 to 9:30 p~n- times, Monday thru Thursday because of the amount of parking and ~ generated by the park across the street. They should specifically outline what they see, if there's an issue. What the impact is so that thc Council is aware of the impact because of the curb cut. Scott: Diane, did you want to mention the 16 foot handicap parking space? Harberts: Thank you. 26 is that thc _stuff revisit with thc applicamt reviewing the oppommity for a 16 foot disabled handicap parking spaces to provide more fimctional use by patrons that require that type of special need. Is there a 277 Scott: Just a point about, did you make sure the notes are very copious because we have no idea whether, since you're undersupavised on setting up thc video and thc audio and these comments may not be on the public record but if you could take very copious no~s on that to make sure that at least we know precisely what the conditions can be. Is there a second to thc motion? Mancino: I second but I have a friendly amen~t. On l(b), last line. And this has to do with the landscaping between, on the north side between thc development. The last line. I would like to read, the use of more planting materials may be warrant~ to achieve better long screen planning for the development. I would like to delete the words, but smaller. Scott You'll ~t that ~t7 Harberts: Yeah, I guess. Scott: Okay, it's becn moved and seconded that wc accept the matter before us with conditions as stated and a fricndly amendment. Is there a second to thc motion? Mancino: Yes. 32 Planning Commission Mecfing - ~ber 4, 1993 Scott: It's been moved and seconded. Any discuss/on? Harberts moved, Mancino seconded that the Planning Commission reco~d the City Council approves the Site Plan #93-7 dated December 7, 1993 and the Conditional Use Permit ~3-1 to permit the grouping of buildings on one building lot, subject to the following conditions: 1. Th~ applicant shall be required to provide a revised landscape plan for City approval. Thc plan shall include the following: The applicant shall provide interior landsca~ islands in the parking lot areas. In particular, landscape islands measu~g approximately 29n 15 feet by 40 38 feet (two parking stalls wide by two deep) shall be provided for every other aisle of face- to- face parking (minimum of three interior planting islands). These islands shall contain a minimum of three ovcrs~ trees and they shall be alt~nat~ with the tree groupings to be provided at the perimeter of the site. A aea-atio~gation system consisting of pcr~orated PVC pipe or other flexible tubing in a looped system with at least two risers extending above the planting surface shall be designed and inslalled as pan of these planting islands (S~ attached Pigure 11-3). name Quercus macrocarpa) in orcl~r to continue the tree planting theme begun in the Oak Ponds townhouse development locat~ north of this development In order to more effectively screen the development from residences to the north, the trees should be placed closer to the top of the slope, as opposed to near the bottom of the slope where they have virtually no effect on screening~ Spacing of conifers' should be ten (10) feet to allow them to grow together in a more solid mass at a younger age. As at other areas of the site, these tree~ should be placed strategically in groupings to The use of more ~.=t-"?_2~..= planting materials may be warranted to achieve better long-lmm screening for the development Perimeter and parking lot boulevard medians shah be provided with low level shrubs and other plant real,rials to help soften the appearance of the parking area. Evergreen shrubs am great for winter and also add to summer landscape, but use of more flowering shrubs in combination with the evergreen shrubs would be appropriate. The plan should consider the use of more shrubs and pere~mials (such as dayHHes) in important areas of the site. These plants could be used as accents at site entries or 33 Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 Alternate ground cover such as sumac shall be used along the steep grade to the ninth. The steepness of the grade precludes the mowing of this sodded are~ Ornamental trees should be ~n~~l wi~n thc landsc~g boxcs located in front of the b~ld~ng to provide architectural highlighting and to enhance the facade of the sm~cu~. A~_~g ornamental ~ees (~le, hawthorns or j~anese tree lilacs) in planting areas near the building would add interest and color to the expanse of wall, especially at the front of the building. Care should be exercised in selecting plants that do not set fruit (which can be vcry messy in the case of some crabapples) for areas close to pedestrian ways. Are~ near the bnilding would benefit from the introduction of more colorful planting matcflals in the form of flowcring shrubs and A landscape box with shrubs shall be provided to the north of the trash enclosure located adjaceot to the detached comme~ial building to screen this enclosure from view. g~ All landsca~g are, ns shah have thc proper soil ~on to ensure the viability of the vegetation to sttrvive. The landscaping plan shall provide specifications for proper soil preparation. Consideration should be given to placing plant ms__terials together to create a bolder, more in--ting landscape, without excessive allmma~on. Plantings shall be massed, creating a more diverse and dynamic hndscape. Wi_thin massings, similar species Consideration shall be given to maintaining views to the Imi!ding when placing u'ee groupings in the pe~ime~ areas. The plnn does not recognize the sueet tree plantings at West 78th Street nnd Kerber Boulevard where the City has installed, or has planned, for trees at 50 feet on cent~' (West 78th Street) and 35 feet on center (lr,~rber Boulevard). The City's plans for West 78th Street show a l~rman~nt landscape easement (eight foot typical) at several locations along West 78th Sueec The landscape plan for the project should start with the pattern of street tree plantings at the streets, allowing these trees to provide placed in groupings within the setbacks or berm areas of the si~ je The more formal placement of trees along the entry drives works to continue the feeling established by the City's tree plantings at the street. Tighter spacing of trees along the entry drives is desirable. Shrubs along the entry drives would reinforce Planning Comm~ion Meeting- December 4, 1993 e e 6~ views of the building and obscure bumpers and hoods of cars. k. Enlries could be marked at the streets with more colorful plantings, creating a break in the rhythm of street tree plantings and l:WOVit6ng e~q:)hasis for sit~ entry points. L Care should be exercised in spacing shrubs to ensm~ that complete covcr of the planting bed is achieved at maturity. At the po'imet~r of the parking areas, the large expanses of sod from the back of the curb to the ~ line should be planted with uee~ and shrubs in significant groupings. This should also occur between the weslm'ly entry drive and the east side of the detached commercial building nnd at the area west of the retail building. n. Financial guaranUw.,s shall be provided to in_sure installation and mainl~m~ of o. All planting areas must have an irrigation system installed. p. Benches and picnic tables shall be provided in the landscaped area west of the retail The screen wall located at the easlm'n ~ of the building shall be emro:ideal to the beginning of the radius of the curb. A sidewnlk shnll be provided from West 78th Street to the retail center along thc western entry drive, enst of the commerdnffoffice building, into the development. As a condition of site plan nppmval, the applicant shall be required to enter into a development contract with thc City nnd provide the necessary finnncial security to guarantee compliance with the conditions of approval. Thc applicant shall bc responsible for applying and obtaining the necessary pcrmits for the City's Building dcparunent for the installation of thc site i .mlm~vcments. The applicant shah enter into an encroachn~nt agreement with the City for bcrming and lnndscaping over the City's drainage and utility easement nlong the west side of Kcrbcr Boulevard. Thc applicant will also be responsible for adjusting the existing sanitary manholes to the new grades. 35 Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1~3 e The app~t shah remove the fotutecn parking stnlls in front of the retail site directly west of the supcnnnrk~ In orclcr to make up for lost parking stalls ns a result of changes to the site plan, compact parking spaces may be used. 8. The applicant will be responsible for fmaishing and instnlling the approp~tt~ traffic control signs and pavement markings throughout thc site. 9. The mining rnclii at the driveway nccess points along Kcrber Boulevard shonld be expanded to 20 feet. The turning radius for the service drive located in the northwe~ corner of the site should be expanded to accommodntc large scrni-~ accomm_t~lntiom with a wheelbase of 50 feet. lO. The applicant's en~neer shall supply City staff with detailed storm drainage calculations for the entire site. Storm scwc~ shall bc clcsi~ to handle a 10-yc~ storm event. Additional catch basins may be needed after review of the storm wat~ calculations. ll. The retail building site located in the southwest corner of the site plan should be lowcrcd by a minimum of five feet. 12. The applicant shall provide the City with a $10,000.00 financial sccurity to guarantee installation of the curb cuts and boulevard rcstorafio~ ~ security may bc included 13. An erosion control plan shall be developed and incorporated into the sit~ plan and resubmitted for City staff x~zview and approval. Staff recommen~ imp~n~ng the restorations. The northerly back slope behind the building should be restm~ with an erosion control blanket Plans should also employ erosion control measures around proposed catch basins with hny bales or silt f~nce or other approved measures in accordan~ with the City's Best btanagcmcnt Practice Handbook. 14. The final sit~ grades shall be compatible with the final grade of the Oak Pond development directly north of this development. The entry drive from West 78th Street in front of Byerly's shall be revised to a boulevard type separating the major traffic aide from the parking area. (Note: The developer has already agreed to this and revised the plans, however, since they are different from the ones initiafly submitted and provided to the Commission, I thought that I should add thi~ as a condition.) 36 Planning Commission Meeting - December 4, 1993 16. The appflcant shall work with SW Metro Transit to locate a btm tmnsi~ stop area on.site. 17. 18. 19. 22~ There shall be no outdoor storage of goods or materhls after construction Is completed. There shnll be no trash pick. up between the hours of 6:00 P.M. nnd 6:30 A.M. No overnight lmrking of refrigernfion mit tracks nd/or trnllers. No use of trash compaction equipment between 10:00 PM. and 6:30 AJkL A sidewalk ia to be pFovided from WqnPt ?8th S~ to t_he de*_~oeh__-d_ bufldinR~ The aDDrooFiate loeqtkm of thi~. ~idewa. lk is to be work~ out with ~s~n~_ff. The appliennt shnn be _requi _red to nln_teh dMnifinll wprk for .the d~?_¢hed commerei_'n~ brdMing wi~ thnt of the nmin buildin.p. Prior to developme~_, of the outlmildinR, the appfi_enng _shrill ~eo_me _h~.~k to file PIp. nnin.~ ~ommimd__On for nrehiteeturnl revi~ of the bnfldkn~ d.,~___m,- ADDflcant shall work with staff On the 8ire li_ohfina._. Parldn_~ lot li_~httn_~ tony I~ no hieher t~hn~ ~the .1~. in b¥fldin~ The_ si_t, nn_~e ltn_~_kn_~e fQr the developme~__t _~hnll come I~__ek tO the Plnnnln_p Committal_ on for approvnl. The Public Safety Director is to provide specific c0mm~_ ts t9 the City Conn~! 9n the curb cuts and t~ruck traffic on Kerber Boulevard. Partic-Inr m_~Jtion should be nmde of the truck hnp~cts On imj'k tree. between _the hms_rs 9/' 4;I~0 and P.M. ~M6e The applicant is request to rev~i.'t the hnndicn__DD~_ Dn~'kin_~ wi_th Svecifl~y. the aDplic~mt b to look into the oDoort~nlty of Drovidin~_ ~wt~,~ (16) foot handicapped l)nrkinR _n~nll~, AH voted in favor, except Conrad who abstained and the motion carried. Conrad: Just for your note, I abstained. I didn't vote. - Scott: And this is just a comment to the developer. We've had some backgronnd on the 37