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EDA 1995 04 20CHANHASSEN HOUSING AND REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORrI'Y REGULAR MEETING APRIL 20, 1995 Chairman Boyle called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. ~EI~ pRE~ENT; Gary Boyle, Don Chmiel, Mike Mason, Charlie Robbins and Jim Bohn STAFF PRESENT; Todd Gerhardt, Asst. Executive Director APPROVAL OF MlNI, rr~; Chmiel moved, Bohn seconded to approve tho Minutes of the Housing and Redevelopment Authority meeting dated March 16, 1995 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSIDER APPRQVAL QF HRA SUBSIDY T~ ~ SENIQR HOUSINCe PR~. Boyle: Do we have somebody ex)ming Todd, to talk? Gerhardt: I called him and he said he would be here. I told him the meeting started at 7:00... and I told him to be here at 7:00. Bohn: Who is this? Gerhardt: Strsar. Boyle: Off the record then until they get here. Until they get here, well voicing any of the questions or issues I guess might not be appropriate until they get here. The issue on the senior housing Todd, and again off the record while we're kind of in...here. Do you anticipate any issues from the seniors regarding whafs proposed7 Gerhardt: Not from the senior group. The senior group has been supportive of the project whole heartedly. The Planning Commission voted 4 to 2 approval last night on the project. The residents north of the project expressed concerns regarding the height of the building and how the visual impact of that would be viewed from their back yards looking south. Bohn: That was the same problem when Heritage Park Apartment was built. The people to the north of that were objecting to the height of that building and it was built anyway of course but. Chmiel: Mr. Chairman. Todd, I had some discussions with A.~hworth last week and asking whether or not-something could be done to depress that building, more so than what we had Housing and Redevelopment Authority Mooting - April 20, 1995 looked at. Has anything been followed up on that to determine whether or not that could be brought down lower? Gerhardt: Well I mentioned there's a couple things you could do. You could eliminate, the pitched roof and go with a flat roof section. You know, and I said what happens when you do that type of thing is that you get what will look like a big office building. Having a pitched roof is what really gives it a higher height But it also gives it a residential feel when you pitch the roof. That's the commentS we received from a lot of people when they look at pitched roofs in the downtown area~ It gives it more of a residential feel. And I think there may be ways, we're talking 4 to 6 feet above the city limitS that is 40 feel You're right now at an average of anywhere between 44 and 46 feet. And you know, are we splitting hairs on this? I don't know. I would let it go through the process. It went through the Planning Commission. I'd let it go through the City Council to deal with the problem thoro and the ordinance issue, the height and site coverage and setbacks. Mason: Todd, did you say the Planning Commission, they approved it last night? Gerhardt: Yes. I think it was 4 to 2. Boyle: And this will come up in front of the Council at the next scheduled meeting? Gerhardt: The project has already been scaled back from 70 unitS to 63 to meet tho setbacks on it so we have lost approximately 7 unitS from the project Bohn: Why was it done? Gerhardt: The conceptS that have been shown showed 10 and 12 foot setbacks from Chan View and Kerber and that's just not acceptable. Bohn: Chan View? You mean Santa Vora? Gerhardt: Santa Vers~ Bohn: That's a real long setback from Chan View. Chmiel: Total height of that structure, are we looking at four floors, at 10 foot per? Plus the roof and that's pitched. That gives it the additional height. Gerhardt: Well how they determine the height, they're adding the height of all four sides and then getting a mean. So you've got whore on the north side ifs like walkout, which has a Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 higher and you go from the ground to top of the roof and it's higher than what you would have on the south side. So how the planners have always measured roof height is adding all four sides and getting an average or a mean... Chmiel: Okay. And what does that come to? Gerhardt: I heard 44 to 46. Chmieh Okay. Bohn: If we lost 7 units and for the model we were using 70 units, weren't we? How does that affect the financial picture of it? Gerhardt: From what I~,e been told, it doesn't affect the project. Financially. Chmiel: We're still looking at $1.8 or $2? Gerhardt: Million? It's around 5. Chmieh What were we talking the other day? We've got so many projects going, I get confused. Gerhardt: 4.8. Chmiel: 4.8. Ohl City Hall. Right church, wrong pew. That's right, 4.8. Boyle: Well Todd, what do you recommend we do here? Gerhardt: Well, what I would do is recommend approval of the resolution that I handed out, and the subsidy that you would be providing, each year as a part of your budget, you would allocate approximately 19, this number has gone down with the number of units. Approximately $19,000.00 of your annual budget to go into a fund balance for the possibility of rent subsidy for a number of the units. Al'one point we talked about, and Don talked about it in his memo, that we were going to certify a 1% levy against the residents of Chanhassens whereby approximately $85,000.00 to $90,000.00 subsidy for the project. Per units that would cover all the units if somebody wanted to have all the units subsidized. Don states in his memo that he's been bombarded saying we do not want this to be a senior subsidized unit. So now they've gone down to the point where they're only going to subsidize a few of the units. In that case, the lIRA would only have to set aside approximately $19,000.00 a year which would come out of your annual budget This resolution calls for a Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 levy to be certified down at the County but when it would come around August and we have to submit our levy down there, we would not submit a levy. We would, like a lot of our bonds, we have to at least have the capability to levy down there. And that would be a worse case scenario that the apartment buildings sat empty for a long time and that would be used up by our subsidy from the year before... But that's a very worst case scen~o that we would have to do that. Boyle: How long does this subsidy, how long is this subsidy in effect? Gerhardt: In the cashflows we had to show that we would have enough money to, it goes up to the year 2009 but w8 think that. 2009, but we thinl~ that down the line you'll have enough money in there, interest earnings, that they'll close sooner than that. Chmiel: I think some of the discussions that we had on that was about 10 years, wasn't it? To bring it back from where it would be. Gerhardt: I really think that it would be anywhere from '5 to ?... Chmiel: Yeah. At the max, would be the 10. Gerhardt: But when you deal with projects like this ~nd auditing practices, you have to keep fund balances and so it all depends on the interest bearing and the demands but the subsidy. So in the proforma, it's the star or the arrow...which shows k/nd of a block...but it says County HRA subsidy and that runs that all the way out. That's your subsidy. Boyle: Okay. Well we jumped ahead to item number 3. Under old business, which is a little out of sequence here. We'll continue with it, being we've started. Charlie, do you have any questions regarding consider approval of the subsidy to the Senior Housing Project? Robbins: No, just a general with the proforms~ It's more of just a question on the subsidy question. In terms of are we required, back me up. Look on the revenues it shows vacancy loss number you've got in brackets up on your expected revenues each year for the project. Now if by chance there's not a vacancy loss and that number now becomes positive, 'well it would then be at zero or be less than what it's showing. Are we still required to kick in the same subsidy each year, because now we're actually making more than we thought Gerhardt: That's where we were hoping that down the line that you could cut out the subsidy. Robbins: So it could in fact, it goes down a lot faster there than it's showing? Okay. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Chmiel: Let me ask one other question. Gerhardt: They're still going to expect for us to book certain vacancy rates. Even though you may have a waiting list and you may have a full apartment, auditing prac~tic, es always say you've got to take into account worst case scenarios so if you have vacancies, you have to have a fund balance to cover yourself for a certain period of time. Robbins: Now taking the same question one more step. ff in fact we do allocate for the vacancy loss. At the end of the year it tums out then, again it was zero because there was not a vacancy and we've already subsidized. Do we get a rebate for that year or would it be carried forward to the next year or would it just be the back end would be reduced as far as the number of years that we're going to subsidize? Gerhardt: I couldn't answer that. I would hope that we don~ need money because of that But I can check on that. Boyle: Given back to the HRA account. Don. Chmiel: Question, that I have. If there are numbers of vacancies there, what is the break even point for us with this? How many units have to remain full? Have we looked at that7 Gerhardt: ...do you remember what the percentage of vacancies that we put in the proforma7 Sulie Frick: I think...7%. Which is a little bit higher than standard but I do believe it was Gerhardt: So that'd be 5 or 6 rooms per month? Sulie Frick: Yeah. Gerhardt: Probably a few more in the first 3 months. iulie Frick: Of the initial...7 Julie Frick: Yes. I'm not sure exactly what, you know there would be a certain amount of time that it would take to lease that building and there's also a.. Boyle: Okay, Jim. Did you have some questions7 Mike? Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Mason: No. Bohn: What did you say 10%...or 7%? Mason: So we're at 63 units now right? C~rhardt: 63. Boyle: So Todd as I understand it, what the staff is recommending that we take one year at a time. We're looking at 1996 is what we're going to approve at this time. And then in, excuse me, you would come back. Gerhardt: During our 1996 budget process, or during our 1996 budget process, this corning fall, we will be asking for, it would be for '97 because it shows zero for '96. Boyle: '96. So in '96 we would re-address it again for '98 I guess then. Gerhardt: For the first payment, for revenues in '97 of approximately $19,000.00 and that would be needed in 1997. ff you look at our proforma again, we show zero here and... operating year 1996...and then in 1997 it shows the $22,726.00. That number is really 19 based on the number of units that ifs gone down. Boyle: Oh, okay. Julie Frick: I think at the top of that page it should show the vacancy. Gerhardt: Yeah, the dollar amounts... J'ulie Frick: Maybe it isn't. Gerhardt: 7%. Boyle: Okay. Well are there any further questions? And if not, I'm going to ask for a motion. Gerhardt: What this resolution is going along with, this bond sale and you always have the option and if you agree to, if need be, levied to a 1% across the board...for asking for revenues for the subsidy. Boyle: So we're doing two motions Todd? One would be for the initial 22. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Mooting - April 20, 1995 Gerhardt: The only one that you would have to make is the approval of this resolution, which also is concert to say that, I don't want to say you're going to have to approve the subsidy every year when I bring them back during the budget process but if there's some reason that you don't approve the subsidy during our budget process, then we're going to have to find other means to provide that subsidy. Boyle: That same scenario would apply right now, would it not? Gerhardt: Yes. Unless we would have... Botm: I'll make the motion. Mason: I'll second it. Boyle: And the motion reads as what? That we accept the resolution authoriz/ng the levy of the special benefit tax pursuant to Minnesota Statute, etc? Is that? Okay. In the amount of 1%. Question. Robbins: Discussion? Boyle: Discussion. Robbins: On your last paragraph, just so we're clear then. Well probably item number 2 of the resolution dictates it but it says staff will recommend HRA and so forth, from this year's budget but that should, I can say should but ifs really to read, $22,000.00 from this years budget for 1996 taxes. Because the way I read it, it says $22,000.00 payment for '95 but when in fact the resolution, number two says '96. Boyle: Charlie, I don't soo 1995 in there. I was assuming it was for 1996. Robbins: No, the last paragraph of the memo. That's the budget for this year's budget, which is '95. Boyle: Oh, the $22,000.00 from this year's budget to pay for 1996. Robbins: I think that's the way it's supposed to read. Boyle: Okay. Gerhardt: Correct. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Robbins: If that can be modified in the motion. Gerhardt: If you want to make it into one motion for both, that's fine. I see it as being two things. It's one, you're passing a resolution that you will use your levy authority if need be and two, that you are going to allocate the $19,000.00 for budget year 1996. Which again I'll bring back to you during the hearing and budget process this fall. But I don~t know if Den's correct in saying that you need money for 1996...proforma it doesn't call for... Boyle: Yeah, that was my original question. Gerhardt: So I don't think it's key that you do it unless it messes up during the bond sale issue where they want to see everything. Bohn: We could do it just to cover our butt. I'll add that to my motion then. Boyle: What are you adding to the motion? I'm sorry lim. Bohn: The $22,000.00. Boyle: For this year's budget? Bohn: Right. Gerhardt: ...so the be~nning of '97...The only thing I can think of is if we have to' allocate '96 dollars so you have the money there for the beginning of the year '97. Boyle: That's kind of going back to my original statement" Okay. Don, did you have a comment?. Chmiel: Yeah, just a comment that I'd like to make for the record. Senior housing has been something that I have supported, it seems like the last hundred years. But one of the things that was never, ever discussed was the 1% increase that you're bringing up for the levy. Now this would be put back onto every taxpayer within the city, a 1%? Gerhardt: As a third line insurance. Chmiel: We will not activate this until it's absolutely basically needed? Gerhardt: Correct. At one point during other meetings that we had in the senior center, it was brought out at that time that we were going to open up the subsidy for the entire unit. It Housing and Redevelopment Authority Mooting - April 20, 1995 might be a unit...complex, that you were going to need more money to provide that. And the only way of providing more money was to use the option of tho 1% levy capab~ties, which the HRA has powers to do. And that was placed in and then as Don states in his memo, that the seniors expressed concerns and many other people had expressed concerns too that they did not want to see this project fully subsidized, or have the capabilities of getting fully subsidized. So thus...so the 1% levy shows the 85 to 87. That is no longer a mechanism. So with every bond sale, you always have the capability to levy additional dollars to make up those revenue shortfalls. Boyle: So it's required that you, I mean not required. Ifs strongly recommended. Or is it required? Gerhardt: You're going to see a, if you do not approve it, you're going to see possibly a higher interest rate on your bonds. It may be where some people bid on the bonds, you know provide it. Ifs general obligation type... Chmiel: Okay. If this has to be enacted, and brought forward at some time. Gerhardt: You have to approve it. Chmiel: Okay. Alright. Boyle: Thanks for making that part of the record Don. Okay, we have a motion on the floor, amended and discussion. Any further discussion? Bohn moved, Mason seconded that the Housing and Redevelopment Authority approve the w. solution authorizing the levy authority if needed, and allocating $19,000.00 for budget year 1996. All voted in favor and the motion carried. VI~ITQR PRF~ENTATIQN; Boyle: Well we did kind of skip Visitor Presentation. If there's any visitors in the audience who would like to address the HRA, they may at this time. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 REPORT BY STRGAR-ROSCOE-FAIr/~(~3~I REOARDING (~RI~AT PLAINS BOI~ARD AND MARKET BQUI.KVARD GEQ~CS. Gerhardt: Mr. Chairman, liRA members, l~d like to introduce Denny Eyler from Strgar- Roscoe-Fausch. It was a goal of last year to re-look at some of the geometrics of the Great Plains intersection, north and south of the railroad tracks in front of Brown's Car Wash and the entrance into the Dinner Theatre. There's also concerns regarding Market Boulevard, south of the railroad tracks down there. With that staff has asked Strgar-Roscoe to come in and give an analysis of these two areas and formulate some recommendations on how tO gO about correcting the geometrics in this area. And with that, attached to the report...At this time I'd like to have Denny go through that and explain his recommendations. Denny Eyler: Okay, thanks Todd. I think you've all got the figures. I don't know whether it'd be easier to work off the overhead on_As Todd mentioned, we were asked to take a look at the geometric issues on both Market and Great Plains Boulevard between Highway 5 and West 78th Street. This first figure I have up here is the existing conditions on Market, starting with the Highway 5 intersection and then going on up to the railroad tracks and then there's a match line here we picket on and bring it all the way up to 78th Street. On the north end there's essentially one lane in each direction with a left turn lane developed with a signal at 78th and Market Boulevard. Starting from the south end we took a look at the basic operations of TH 5 and one of the first concerns we had was the fact that this free right turn of speeding out into this right hand lane. There are two lanes coming across Highway 5 and this lane effectively becomes a right turn only lane and there's an edge of the roadway that sticks out in the line of this lane. It does force everybody thafs in that lane to turn right. And that's a very short distance for all that to take place. I guess if I was going to go out and design this intersection, I probably wouldn't put that free right in today. I know that's MnDot's style but allowing somebody to come off a roadway this fast and then having to make a decision right there, it's not the best deal. The one thing that's kind of a saving grace is there's no immediate left turn to go across this way. If you had both this and a left turn at this intersection, that's not, I guess I'd put somebody on notice if they're going to develop that, that there might be a problem but, we looked at that and that was one of the problem areas. Then immediately you narrow down and you introduce another right turn lane. There's another island. There's some unusual geometrics in the southbound lanes as you come through here where lanes are introduced and tapers and it's kind of different. Boyle: It's a mess. Chmiel: Dennis, was this is a MnDot design? (There was a tape change at this point.) 10 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Denny Eyler: Yeah, there's an island between, what is it 79th and is that the Americana Bank? Boyle: Yes. Denny Eyler: That would come out and we would, we'd still have space for a short left turn lane into the Americana Bank and then that would continue on as a left turn lane for ?9th Street and then it would start up again after some cross hatching for the left turn down Highway 5. There is enough room across there for 5 lanes. Boyle: So even if you pass 79th Street, there's two lanes going north. Denny Eyler: There's two lanes going north all the way up to 78th Street. Boyle: Okay, good. I thiuk that fulfills the objective. Denny Eyler: Yeah, I was surprised. When I first looked at it, it looked pretty hopeless but then we got in there and blew it up to a large enough scale and started playing around with curves and tapers. Boyle: And there is room to do that? Denny Eyler: There's room to do it without moving the outside edge of the roadway. And we actually used those actual tapers that were in there, we couldn't figure out the first time around. We figured out a way to use them. Boyle: Is there any issues or questions regarding removing the concrete median on Market Boulevard and widening? Discussion on that? Chmiel: And getting back some of those additional figures. Boyle: Right. I thought maybe we'd go through this and then come back to the figures. Chmiel: Well, there's some additional counts that they want to do as well. Isn't that fight? Denny Eyler: Well, we're going to be doing stuff on 78th Stre~ We weren't planning on doing any additional counts down in this ares~ Unless you've got some other issues. Chmiel: 78th Street is what I was referencing. But it's down from that particular area. What is the potential with the Americana Bank being right on 79th, of cutting that comer and ll Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 making it wider? In other words, to the east of West 79th. On the comer where you have left hand, or fight hand turn. Just to make a cut. I don't know what our right-of-way is. I don't know how much is the city's. Would that alleviate any given problems? Denny Eyler: Well, yeah. I know what you're saying. It might pay to make that a bigger raise as we're extending this lane up here. When we get into details, I'll make a note of that. We thought we could make this work. That if you project this line up, that it does form a natural rightage of the roadway. But I'll grant you that if you had a few extra feet in there, and a different radius, it would be better. You're probably being influenced now by the fact that the median's out there. Mason: Well that's true. Denny Eyler: You pick up 6/ll/th by removing the median so. But I mean these are done off of tracings of earlier plans. Until we actually get out there and do our own detail construction plans, but I'll make a note of that. Robbins: The way it's shown on Market, where those hatch lines are~ The solid line. The proposal is a solid, double line yellow...before you get to TH 5. Which is not there now. Gerhardt: There's an existing median here. Denny Eyler: Yeah, the double yellow would be under. Robbins: Yeah, that one. The question I have, because I come that way frequently in the morning from, and making a left turn and fight now there's a lot of traffic that stacks back and occasionally it's through that intersection and you can't cross. You can't get through the intersection to make a fight turn onto TH 5 from there because there's cars stacked all the way back through it. Will that alleviate? To me that would not alleviate that. That would actually compound it by putting cars in the other lane. If in fact you've got that mark as not to park there, or to put a car there. Denny Eyler: The left lane, north of 79th Street, again could be allowed as a left thru and the cross hatching not used. I guess I'm, if the left turn lane fills up and they spill back into the right hand, or the left hand thru lane, through 79th, there isn't a high enough volume of thru traf~c that they can't do fine with the one lane on the fight. Robbins: Well again I'm making, in the morning often times because I'm going west on TH 5 so I'm making a left onto Market. 12 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Denny Eyler: Oh, you're coming off of 79th? Robbins: Yes. I'm making a left turn from West 79th onto Market. And there's always a lot of cars in that left turn now of Market also. I mean there's times when you can't get through because both lanes are filled because the lights are, you're got the left turn filled up and you've got traffic waiting to go through and you can't get across to make a fight turn to TH 5. Well that hatching to me that would confuse it. Denny Eyler: The southbound thru's are also backing up that far? Robbins: Yeah. Denny Eyler: Okay. I wasn't aware of thsc Because we haven't done. Robbins: Again, I'm there in the morning at rush hour frae and maybe an hour either way, one way or the other alleviates it, but at some point there's a lot of volume in the morning fight there. Denny Eyler: Yeah, the other suggestion would be to not have it cross hatched and allow you to continue through in the left turn lane at 79th. Now there's some slight risk there to the driver on 79th not understanding that that vehicle that's in what appears to be a left turn lane at his intersection is in fact going through to the next intersection. That's the risk there. The drivers, if faced with a storage problem, the drivers will drive on that cross hatching. I mean we could leave the cross hatching in. Robbins: No question. Denny Eyler: We could even leave the cross hatching on and still leave the le~ we could even reduce the size of the cross hatching. That's really there to, that's intended as an alert to the driver going southbound that's in the left lane at ?9th, that's what's across the street from him is something different. It's a left turn lane for TH 5. So the size of that is not anything really magical. We would make that as small as possible and then, when push comes to shove, that last driver will park on that if he wants to be lined up. The only way to increase the storage beyond that would be to actually technically extend the left turn lane back north of ?9th Street by using that left turn lane. As far as any phasing changes to the signal at TH 5, that would be pretty dramatic to go in there and try to create a double lef~ turn or have something like that. I don't know how, what duration the problem is. You can turn left on the green after the arrow goes out too. That's what's known as protective permissive left turn. And I guess that was one of the questions I was going to ask. We'll review the storage requirements and again, that's another one of those issues that's...at this point. 13 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Chmiel: Some additional signage could assist. Denny Eyler: Yeah, we'll take another look at those numbers with that specific question in mind and it's just a matter of what our final recommendation will be for striping and si~ming. Physically the island's got to come out of there in order to shave off the east side to get the two lanes going up there and get them lined up to the north so. The removal of the island and how it's restfiped is, that's pretty much the same cost one way or the other...designing so we'll review the storage lanes there and that issue. Boyle: Todd, as the properties e~m or behind the Americana Bank is developed, is there any anticipated need for further improvement to West 79th Street then? Is there going to be a requirement to widen that, or adjust it at that time in any way? Can it handle the traffic that could go in there for additional businesses in that area? Gerhardt: That's something that Denny's going to be working in the area. Boyle: Maybe looking a little bit further ahead. Denny Eyler: You know there's additional empty land back this way that. Gerhardt: Yeah, east of Americana. Americana Bank sits here and this is, this is the concept. You've got two restaurants here. Auto repair and kind of an unknown here type, I'll just call it 2,400 square feet of retail in here. And you've got probably 100 seat, 200 seat restaurants which at peak times would bo in the noon time and probably 4:30 to 8:00. Boyle: I know this is something for future but I'm thinking as long as we're doing this, we might as well look a little bit further ahead before we start making plans on that intersection at 79th and Market Boulevard. Denny Eyler: That's a well taken point. Yeah, we could do, weN, e got the info~on. It should be informational when you get to generate the trat~fic numbers. We may have to make a count then. We don't have them on 79th and Market... Gerhardt: There's total parking of about 205. Denny Eyler: That may or may not mean... Gerhardt: Talked about an Applebees and a Fuddruckers. 14 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Denny Eyler: An Applebees and a Fuddruckers? How has the left turn signal arrangement on TH 5 and Great Plains been working as far as the protected/permissive? Chmiel: I think that works pretty well. Denny Eyler: No accidents or operational problems? Chmiel: We did have one elderly gentleman over in that particularly lane going in the wrong direction but that was understandable. They were trying to get to the Dinner Theatre. Denny Eyler: Well they're somewhat controversial. Hennepin County doesnt like to allow left's on a green after the arrows go out. For a while MnDot was in that mode for a period of time too. But they~,,e loosened up on the slower speed side streets...do like they do here. Chmiel: Yeah. Since we put in those lights, ifs much better. I don't think we~,e had, I don~t know how many, if we've had any really. I can't recall of any accidents... Gerhardt: The biggest concern in getting it adjusted now is that when you're making a left hand turn coming out of Great Plains, if you don~t make the green light behind the person... Denny Eyler: Well, is there anything else on Market? Okay. At Great Plains, before I get into the geometrics issue, I'll talk a little bit about that left turn. We were contacted by several people on the city staff about the operations of this left turn and at Great Plains the left turn signals are protected only. You can only turn on the arrow. Chmiel: Which drawing are you on now Denny? Denny Eyler: This is... Boyle: Figure 3. Chmiel: Okay. Got it. Denny Eyler: The existing, it's existing Great Plains. The left turn arrows on Great Plains are what's known as protected only left turn treatment where you ~ only turn on a green arrow. And this is kind of a strange design too. Generally when you have a double left, the guideline is you have protected only. You don't allow people to turn on a green. Circular green when you have a double left. But then the question is, why do we have a double left for northbound to Great Plains. Even if that was still Highway 101, I can't believe that that left turn was ever that great. I'm not sure why MnDot did that. So we analyzed this. MnDot 15 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Mooting - April 20, 1995 gave us tho volumes. They counted it I believe in December or November. It was a fairly recent count. We analyzed the volumes of several different phasing arrangements. We looked at having a left and then changing tho center lane to a left thru and having whafs known as split phasing where southbound has one phase and you can turn loft and go straight ahead or go right. You stop them and then northbound has a phase where the same thing applies. And that was marginally better, I mean like 1% or 2%, 3% better for a couple of movements, but it also degraded a couple other movements but it did make the biggest improvement on the southbound loft. But that was only for tho morning rush hour and we looked at evening volumes and it was actually detrimental to the evening operation. So then we looked at if we narrow down northbound to one loft turn lane and we went with protected permissive left turn phasing like we have at Market, and that was actually the most efficient operation. That allowed initially a loft turn arrow to clear out whafs accumulated but because northbound thru's a fairly light, particularly in tho morning, then additional loft turners arriving would be able to turn on the green. But that requires a change in tho signal hardware and MrtDot wasn't totally negative on that idea but it was something that they couldn't do fight away. So we're going to keep talking to thom. But in the meantime, what we were able to have them do is to change the order of the left turn arrow to bo a lagging left. Tho older arrangement was a leading left where the two left tums would come up first. In the heavier one will stay on and tho lighter one would go over to the oncoming thru's. Now the set-up is that the two northbound movements, tho northbound loft and northbound thru como up first and as soon as there's a gap on those detectors, those movements end and the southbound movements come up. And what that does for us is it gives any slop in the timing left over to tho southbound movements, including tho southbound lo~ and if there is any back up of tho left's or the thru's where they would interfere with each other, since they now have a common ending of their green intervals, they won't lock up. They'll run over each other detector's and usually extend so it should reduce tho problems back hero at 79th and tho frontage roack Now it's been in for about 2 weeks and I didn't tell anybody about that. I wanted to see if anybody noticed and when I talked to Todd this morning, ho said he hadn't really noticed so, I don't know. On paper it was supposed to do a little better and it didn't cost thom anything. They were able to actually do it from the office over the phone lines. Gerhardt: I very rarely leave Chanhassen. Denny Eyler: So I guess keep your ears open. If you hoar any feedback on it, I'd like to know and we'll keep pursuing the issue of, going to the protected permissive left turn arrangement that we have over at Market. First off we looked at that I parked in the lot the other day when I watched it operate but that was at 9:30 in the morning and there was nobody there. We looked at the need for that double left going northbound...and the other issues along Great Plains, where the extra width apparently exists along here and at one spot just north of the railroad, we actually have 27 feet for one lane and really you only need 24 16 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 feet for one lane, for two lanes, so there's actually plenty of width there. So we tried to do the mirror image of what we did over at Market. I colored the median on this one to make it stand out, and what we're recommending is that starting from south and going north, that the space that's used for the existing island and the second left turn lane be utili~,ed for an island that's shifted over to only leave one left turn lane and to create a small left turn lane, left turn pocket into the Legion club. Now we're not really doing it just for th~ What that also does for us is it gives us a wider throat fight here where this free right comes around and this one lane coming south so it makes it a more forgiving intersection for something happen/ng there and it uses space that really isn't serving any purpose. There's no need for a double left lane. Chmiel: The Legion's going to be gone shortly so. Denny Eyler: If something else goes in there thafs a bigger generator then this will not be, definitely a bad deal in that respect. Moving to the north. We took a look at that 27 feet north of the tracks. There's a narrow spot just south of the driveways here and north of 79th where it was 20 feet and by removing the area that's shown in the yellow here, we're able to get two southbound lanes down here. Now this again is a ~milar situation to what's going on on Market. Whether this lane at this point should be a left turn lane to 79th Street or continue on as a left thru and that's what, I looked at this and I wam't sure whether this was a drafting error. I couldn't find my notes. But this should go on, this probably be a left thru because it isn't thru all the way down here and be a left lane. Must turn left at Highway 5 because that is larger volume and that's what my re, commendation would be. And we can also create a new left turn lane here for this driveway. So that gets rid of those constrictions. I would like to have seen a little widening here just prior to the driveway of the Amoco station but the right-of-way and the landscaping and such there doesn't make that look like that's a real easy thing to accomplish but, and I guess my inquiries with Charles, he said he didn't know that there had been any operational problems but I just looked at it on paper and I've driven it a couple times. It seems like, to make that fight turn into tho Amoco station, you're almost going over the 90 degrees and it should have been a bigger radius or something there. It's just not quite in sync but whether it's worth spending money on it, I guess that's of value to it. And if there hasn't been any real problems there, I would leave that for another time. Boyle: Well there probably has but it wasn't the result of that I don't think. The left turn is a result of the medians there. Denny Eyler: Yeah. And again, I guess if I were desiring this intersection, and maybe I should say if I were designing this intersection today. I was around when the first signal was put in here but this was redone with the Highway 5 reconsm~ction. I wouldn't recommend the free right, just because of the problems you can have with somebody coming off of here 17 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 and immediately making that left. I'd make this a fight turn interse~on. Now in saying that, given the askew angle, making a right turn around tho outside comer of an intersection of that angle would be very tough and still the only way you'd place signal poles so that's a no win situation in that case so you can't be too critical of Mnl3ot in that but, operation of those are a problem when you have those free'rights coming off of a 55 mph roadway and there's an immediate opportunity to hit a driveway. Gerhardt: I don't know of any accidents but with two gas stations and jogging and cruising through there, we're lucky there... Boyle: There really is. I've seen a lot of near happenings. Denny Eyler: Yeah, there's one of those near where I live in Plymouth. There's a Holiday station right there and there's a freeway coming Off Of Highway 55, it's near Medicine Lake. I drive through it all the time. Tried to get MnDot to take that one out when we were doing some work on the intersection and they wouldn't do that. Chmiel: Let me ask one question, direct to West 79th Street. As you're coming from west and going east, and you want to make a right hand, or a left hand turn onto Grea~t Plains. As you all know that there's a building that's set so far and you really have to encroach almost into that intersection to really see those vehicles coming. Denny Eyler: This building up here? Chmiel: Yeah. Show me again? Denny Eyler: In this comer? Chmiel: Yeah, fight there. How can we sign that so, alerting these people as they're coming around, and they can't see that intersection. Denny Eyler: You mean the traffic coming southbound? Chmiol: Tho traff¢ going southbound on Groat Plains, yeah. Denny Eyler: Well there is a blind intersection sign that's kind of a standard that's used. It's a crossroad sign... Chmiel: Yeah. It's really blind. somebody's there. Coming out of there sometimes you start shooting across... 18 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Denny Eyler: Is it, how bad, is it a bad problem for the person sitting there trying to see up the street or is it more of a something unexpected for the Great Plains driver? Chmiel: No, I think it's more for 79th. Denny Eyler: Okay. Boyle: Yeah, 79th. Because he's watching both ways because you~,e got the traffic coming off TH 5. You're looking left but you have to get out. So here's somebody decides to turn left onto 79th, you've got your front end out there quite a ways many times. Gerhardt: There's a 4 to 5 foot grade difference from West 79th Street parking lot to the buildings that are north of West 79th Streec Denny Eyler: Okay, that's where the problem is. Robbins: There's also a tree there too or something. Denny Eyler: I can take a look at that. Chmiel: Yeah, would you take a look at that. Denny Eyler: Sure. Bohn: How much of that land is right-of-way? City right-of-way? Gerhardt: Well it doesn't matter how much right-of-way you've got. Youhte got a grade difference and...parking lot. Chmiel: The grade difference is what makes the problem, right. Robbins: This isn't marked on here but I'd just ask the question. As you're going northwest on Great Plains, you're getting close to where you're going to make the turn by where the old Pauly's/Pryzmus corner is right there. Right now what's starting to happen is that people are in the inside lane whereas right now it looks to be a fight turn. Denny Eyler: Okay, here? Robbins: Yeah, right there. And what they're doing, they're starting to go straight now because of the way that the sign is. Is there anyway to sign that so that the inside lane would 19 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 be straight ahead, I mean actually to mark it formally. In~de lane is straight ahead only and then the outside, well I guess the one toward the right side or the east, is right mm and straight ahead both. Because it does go into two lanes when you go to West 79th Street. Denny Eyler: Right. Tho right hand lane is a right only and the left lane is. Robbins: That's the way it is fight now but people are starting to stack up in the right turn to go straight. Boyle: I think signage and some... Denny Eyler: Yeah, maybe the painfs worn off too and this time of the year that starts to be a problem. But we can certainly make sure to sign it. Again, thugs a similar situation we talked about earlier. Robbins: Yeah, because you see across the intersection you,re got two lanes there and people are just waiting for the light to mm to go straight. Denny Eyler: Yeah, and I guess the volumes have changed since this was designed. We went through an analysis of what was going to shift after Dakota was improved and I have to admit I think we were conservative. We were looking at what was coming down TH 101 and then going on old TH 101 and making this jog here and we said, yeah. When the Dakota's lined up straight across the Highway and TH 101 was put out there, we would get, I think we figured about a 300 car reduction during the peak hour. Not all of that off of TH 101, some of that was traffic that was getting off of TH 5 and going up and making the jog across the tracks at 78th Street and a straight shot. But between tho two of those, we expected to got about a 300 car reduction and I think we looked at our counts, after the dust kind of cleared and Dakota was re-opened and we thought it was more in the order of about 400 cars during the peak hour. And so this, the patterns here which initially looked like, maybe Great Plains should have been left being T into 78th Street or starting to look more and more rational. So the issue of whether this should be two thru's, because this volume now is reduced because TH 101 is out here and Dakota's improved, I have to admit we hadn~ we kind of started our investigation here and went south. Maybe we could do that as part of our updating on tho timing on 78th Street to look at that. I'm not sure, I think that island's still back far enough that, obviously people are doing it but I mean... Yeah, because that right turn has gone down dramatically. When this was designed and we were looking at tho traffic patterns when we first signalized it, that right turn was still a big volume but now they're probably just over on Dakota mostly. 2O Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Mason: You know as long as we're up at that intersection, and Fvo used a now phrase, protected/permissive. That left turn from West 78th onto Great Plains there, can that be protected/permissive? Denny Eyler: Yeah. And again, thafs for the same reason. At one time that was really a bigger movement than it is now and we were leery about making a volume. Well actually we sot the timing up as if that were tho main line and oh by the way, you can go straight ahead and keep going down Great Plains if you want to. It really was set up to favor that around the corner move. Tho continuation of 78th Street. Mason: I mean there*s no reason to not be able to turn there. Denny Eyler: Well, yeah. We*Il have to look at the site distance. You're on a curve. There's a few other things going on there but, the volumes, the speeds are slow enough that that should be, and the volume now dropped again as... Bohn: Also when that, when you come around that comer by Pauly's/Pryzmus. Denny Eyler: This one? Bohn: Yeah. When you're coming around that comer and you*re going to go north on TH 101, and there*s a parking lot across the street from Pauly*s. A lot of cars make that curve and almost do a U turn and they go into the opening to that driveway going to the medical center. Denny Eyler: Oh, around the end of the island? Bohn: Yep. It wasn't made long enough to stop that from happening and about once a month there's a little fender bender, that much, because the people just take their license number and keep on going but they scrape each other's cars .... Why was that median so short? Why didn't they make it further, longer than that? I can't understand that. At the time that was redone, which was what, 2 years ago. I mentioned at that time, and they did make it longer but not long enough. Denny Eyler: I know we looked at that and I can't remember what the space limitations were and what the tums were. If they're doing that, we weren't, that wasn't obvious to us that that could be made I guess, of course people are very inventive about these things. Pm not sure that, I thought we made it as long as we could given some other constraints further to the east but we can certainly review flu~ 21 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Gerhardt: ...the guy making the right...and then the guy on the fight wants to go into the Kenny's parking lot going down Great Plains. Denny Eyler: Well we had looked at when this was, this piece was some re-surfacing done on that. I don't know if MnDot gave you turn back money to do that because that wasn't TH 101 but, we kind of made the suggestion that maybe you have a center, two way left turn lane in that stretch but I see it was a stripe. I don't know if you had some on street parking issues and why he did that but we weren't party to that discussion. But we kind of looked, our project basically ended here and we kind of looked downstream here and said, well maybe you might want to have a left turn...church parking on Sundays or something like that. (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Denny Eyler: ...so you're talking about 18 to 25 seconds of flashing going on, plus 7 or 8 seconds of walk. The new pedestrian signals are of a hand and a man. I don't know if that makes any difference or not. When I was at MnDot we went out and put up decals on poles that said what the walks flashes don't waik...should have been a couple of pages of disclaimers with them. Mason: Taped on the sign. Denny Eyler: Yeah, taped on there. You know I made the suggestion years ago when I first got into this business. I said gee, I've been to Europe and they're stupid over there. They have a red man, a green man and a yellow man. It seems it does the same thing, just like a regular vehicle signal does and they have their own intervals but somebody tried to get by with just two indications and I'm afraid we're stuck with that but we could look at, since we are going to be updating the time and plans anyway from coordination standpoint up and down the roadway, we can look at the split of what's walk and don~t walk. What I've done on a few occasions is I've gone in and made the walks more generous. Make it long enough to get to the median anyway. And then use the bare bones minimum for the flashing go walk that you need to have legally before the lawsuit And say, by the time somebody gets to the middle of the street, they'll keep going. We have been real su~ down on Excelsior Boulevard near Miracle Mile where we had a bus stop and the elderly getting off and they always complained about it and said, I mean we had like 40 seconds but there was this idea that they just got off the curb and got a few feet out in the street and this flashing no walking, well they turn around and go back. So we then made the walk. Mason: 3 days later. 22 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Denny Eyler: Yeah, we then made the walk a lot longer and cut the flashing down...We had a similar problem...like this in Wayzata where...it seemed like about every 3 or 4 years we went out there for a lunch and they'd buy us lunch and have us explain to the seniors how the signals worked because they all walked over to the Colonial Shopping Center there. And I was telling one of the ladies there, I said you know I seem to be coming out here every so often to make this little speech. She says, well the inventory turns over here dearie. Since you were talking about senior housing. Boyle: Okay, that moves us right up to a quick update on West 79th Street land. I. IPDATE ON WF~T 79TH STREET LAND, Gerhardt: ...something the planners will accept~ What wdve got here is approximately 3.9 acres and we've shown interest from Applebees and Tires Plus. This thing's been pushed all over the place but to right now, what the planners like...and things like that They like this longer entrance so people can have options to turn right here, come down here and go here, or go here. So this is the concept that they've come up with. Robbins: Whafs where on the plan? Gerhardt: Oh, Americana Bank sits here. Larry Zamor's hotel sits over here. Cheer's sits over here. Railroad tracks are to the north. And with the concept they laid out a potential access that Americana Bank wants to see an access, or these individuals want to see an access over here. And this would be a Tires Plus. Applebees has shown interest. Dairy Queen looked at this and they just didn't feel that they would have visibility. They haven't completely ruled it out but at this point they are no longer showing interest. The Tires Plus individual said that they would come in and take the entire back piece down and develop this into the future if it meant that this development move ahead. I don~t know if the HRA wants to give up their right to this piece of property, now knowing what it is. Boyle: No. Gerhardt: I think that you can still sell, I think you can still sell half tho site and develop this thing. I think there's enough parking support this half, if for some reason Fuddruckers hadn't really formally committed either, but have shown interest in this area. Mason: I thought Charlie was saying, that fell through with Charlie? Gerhardt: The economics of scales, Charlie has never paid over $1.20 for a piece of property and to pay $8.00, he just can't fathom. Not to say flint he hasn't shown interest but we~,e got 23 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 a concept where each one of the individuals could develop it on their own, there's no need for Charlie and he's not proposed, or offended if he doesn't do it. Bohn: rm not happy with a Tires Plus in there. Gerhardt: Well the option with the Tires Plus again is one where they've sealed up this piece of property over here and then we've kind of levied a 50 cents square foot cost for these people to replace the wetland that sits here, over onto this site and also to preserve this as open space in the future. So the people I talked to felt yeah, it's worth 50 cents to see that kind of benefit. So your dollar amount's gone bom $8.50 and your ultimate purchase price for this piece then ends up being $50,000.00 instead of at least $120,000.00. Chmiel: Plus the fact, would that be a permitted use for Tires Plus over on that other side? Gerhardt: Yes. They have a purchase agreement with Don McCarville. Boyle: Well I would much rather see Tires Plus back there by the railroad tracks then up here. Bohn: But can Tires Plus still build on McCarville's property? Boyle: Sure. If he sold it to him, why couldn~ he. Oh, unless planning... Bohn: I though the Highway 5 thing. Chmiel: Corridor study? Bohn: Yeah. Didn't allow. Gerhardt: From what Kate tells me, they can develop there. As long as they replace the wetland that's on the site. Meet the setbacks. Put the brick on. Bohn: What if they can't replace it? If they don~t have any property across the street, they can't replace the wetland. Gerhardt: The storm water group has spots where you can buy land to replace wetlands in the community. Mason: Then with this bill before the legislature too. About wetlands. That may change too. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Chmiel: Yeah. It potentially could but. Yeah, I'd much rather see Tires Plus back in there. Gerhardt: If this is their concept. Bohn: It's still got a flat roof too doesn't it? Chmiel: Well we can make. Robbins: I guess my only general comment, no matter what the business is, if ifs like Applebees, which are retail oriented obviously, it brings a lot of traffic of people as well as cars and fight now the way this road is constructed now, it's not the best road because of the tums and the bends and if you've got a high traffic on the comer right here, you're going to have stacking in here as well as this way, and it's bad now without that I mean it's bad now. Gerhardt: Yeah, and he is going to have to go through city site plan and the en~neers are going to have to look at everything and Gary brought that up and I will be sending this over to Strgar for them to take a look at. Their may need to be you know a left turn lane here. Luckily we own the land to the south and we can put a by-pass in there... Robbins: Which I think would probably be necessary because of the amount of volume out there. Boyle: Okay, well thank you Todd for updating us. Keep us informed. lIRA PI~F-~. ENTATIQN$; Boyle: Any I-IRA Presentations? Mason: Just real quickly. Soccer season is upon us. The 25th of May I believe is our next HRA meeting. I will not be here that night I coach and I've got a game at 7:00 and the Assistant Coach will be out of town so I can't be here. Unless we want to change the day. Boyle: I would have no problem with going to the 18th, if anybody else. Mason: Well, I've got a game. I have two 7:00 games. All the others at 6:00 and the two of them happen to be on the 18th and the 25th so. I mean I don~t know, do you anticipate a whole lot of stuff going on that night? 25 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Gerhardt: Well the only thing I can thinl~ of is, I don~t know, it'd be nice to go later in tho month so maybe we could get some bids back on the work that was proposed tonight. I don't know if that's feasible or not. Mason: Well that's the last Thursday of the month. Chmiel: 25th, I have a conflict with that as well. As well as the 18th.. Boyle: Yeah, I do too. I mean I could break it. Well what about the first? If we go June lsf? Robbins: Will that take out the meeting for the month of June the,o? Gerhardt: Sure, we could double up. Robbins: Ooh, that's a concept. Bexause I'm gone the third week in June. Boyle: Well what we could do is, June is a five week month. We could actually go Thursday the first and Thursday the 29th, or something like that, of June. If necessary. Mason: And if we do do that, if we could go to 7:30 it would help because I've got a 6:00 game. If you want to go at 7:00, that's fine. Iql get here as soon as I can. On the first Chmiel: It's okay with me. Gerhardt: The only thing that I can think of that's coming up is, they're moving ahead hot and heavy on the movie theater complex and it's on for City Council for the redevelopment plan modification. I'm going to need HRA approval on that one too. Chmiel: Could there be a special meeting called? Gerhardt: We might have to. Bohn: Yeah, like a 5:30 meeting or something. Boyle: And it wouldn't have to be a Thursday. 26 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Gerhardt: Okay, if I have that flexibility. Thafs tho only crucial thing out there right now that we're trying to beat the legislators, July 1 deadline. Boyle: The week of the 7th I'm really out of pocket it looks like. 15th is pretty good~ Mason: Well I'm out of town the 1 lth to the 17th. Chmieh Do we have to publish that for the special mooting? Gerhardt: Not for HRA. City Council you do. Boyle: Okay. Bohn: We'll take June 1st. Boyle: At 7:00. Can we keep it at 7:00? Mason: Well thafs fine. I'll be a few minutes late but that doesn% if the other coach is there that night, I can leave a couple minutes earlier. Boyle: Being it's the summer, ifs kind of nice to get in and get out if we can. Mason: Thafs like I say, just knowing I might be a little late, that's fine. That's fine. Boyle: Okay, we'll accept that. Gerhardt: I'll send you a packet of information of whafs going to City Council for Monday night for Gary and Charlie and Jim. They o~line the subsidies for the movie theater... Boyle: Does that include some of what Pauly's is looking at over there? Boyle: Oh does it. Thafs the whole complex Gerhardt: ...facade and parking lot improvements and a boardwalk area on what would be the south side of tho bowling center and in front of the Frontier building... Boyle: Oh, okay. Excellent. 27 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 Mason: That will look nice. Boyle: Okay, how about bills? APPRQVAL OF BIlJ~, Chmiel: I have a clarification on bills Mr. Chairman. We should eliminate the bottom portion of that. It's repetitious of the one above. Boyle: Oh, I see what you're saying. It sure is, isn't it. Well just so we don't have to pay Gerhardt: Jean brings them to me and Chris brings thom to me once in a while so I put them in a pile and then I just, don't even look at them and I paste them together. Mason: And there you go. Boyle: Well it's nice Todd, you accepted responsibility for that. Robbins: Just a question, while it's not a lot of money but ifs, I don~t think I've seen it on here too often. On the bottom, the 4-10 date. Check ~49950. $45.00, City of Chanhassen, utilities. What is that now? Is that our share of the power and light around here? Because I don't think that's been on here too often. Gerhardt: I will check that. The only thing I can think of might be...but I will check on that one to see... Usually, unless they got me for a storm water one too. I'll check on that. Bohn: I've got one, that BRW, $3,527.00 for the demolition of the PonyfPryzmus building. Boyle: Wasn't that part of the. Bohn: The bid? No. That was for tearing it down. That was separate. Boyle: Well there was a $30,000.00 some dollars I think, if I remember right and I think you raised the issue at that time that you didn't want BRW involved in it. Bohn: It was part of that? Gerhardt: It wasn't part of the bid but at the time I brought them back, and I don't know if it was the specifications or the bids that BRW was, they did the bid work on iL..and I think it 28 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting - April 20, 1995 was $5,000.00 to $6,000.00 for that... And the nice thing about it, the problems that we~,e been having over there, they have a lot of knowledge in this area. They have a lot of records and a question... It's nice to have people who have worked on a project. We had two wells that were not recorded, or the State has no records of. And we... Bohn: What°s the $1,800.00 to Hoisington Group for? Gerhardt: That could be for the parking study. For the parking study with the movie theater Bohn: And one final thing. $12.60 for Don Ashworth. Chmiel: He must have bought somebody lunch... Robbins moved, Mason seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and ~e mo~ion carried. The mee~ina was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt Assistant Executive Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 29