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1993 02 18CHANHASSEN HOUSING AND REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY REGULAR MEETING FEBRUARY 18, 1993 Chairman Bohn called the meeting to order at 7:32 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mike Mason, Don Chmiel, Gary Boyle, Jim Bohn MEMBERS ABSENT: Charlie Robbins PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Executive Director; Todd Gerhardt, Asst. Executive Director; and Paul Krauss, Planning Director APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Chmiel moved, Mason seconded to approve the Minutes of the Housing and Redevelopment Authority meeting dated Sanuary 21, 1993 as presented. Ali voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. UPDATE ON THE PROPO$~p CHANHASSEN CONFERENCE/COMMUNITY CENTER. (Taping of the meeting began at this point in the discussion.) Ashworth: ...I do believe that there was direction given to see if there's a way in which we can assure that'there could be future expansion for this facility, and I think that the work that Todd Hoffman has done in the last 2 weeks, now can provide the impetus back over to HGA to create, I'll call it a new plan that can address this growth issue as well as to address the issue of phasing as well as the issue of insuring that you have quality construction. I see those were the .three primary charges and unfortunately we don't have a plan tonight that we can say, this plan meets those three charges. I think that you can ask staff to proceed with attempting to resolve those three issues and there would be a possibility that we could have a special meeting, because I think Curt should be back by now. Potentially within 2 weeks to see if he could develop a plan which met those concerns. Which then will lead us to the next position which is, if we agree to the concept plan then we can move ahead with what Herb was requesting. Help to insure that the architect of this project is working either in the initial phase with Bloomberg Companies or with'their architect to insure compatibility of the two projects. I hope you followed me on most of that. Boyle: Don, is Curt currently aware of the issues that Clayton raised tonight? I mean is he aware of most of these issues that he can put these into his next plan? Ashworth: He was aware of the comment as they came back from the joint Planning/Park Commission because he was there. He was not aware of the comments as they were made by the City Council as a part of their goal session from a week ago Saturday. We will relay those, if he's back in town yet. Chmiel: Do we get that opportunity to get that insert into the newsletter that I had brought up before? Ashworth: ...is it to bed? Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 2 Gerhardt: No. Ashworth: So we still have an opportunity. Chmiel: What I'm discussing is I'd like to, with the-newsletter that we sent out on a quarterly basis, I'd like to get some input from the citizens within the community to give us some feedback as to what their thoughts about the location yet because it was a referendum before and was defeated in that particular location. And I just thought that that might be just an extra input from community. I don't think I'm asking any more than just that. To at least have another feel of what they think. Ashworth: Hopefully we can maybe get in contact tomorrow so we can come up with. Chmiel: Yeah, I'll be in in the morning. Bohn: Clayton. Clayton 3ohnson: I'm not sure I was specific enough in terms of what I was asking and I guess what i'm asking is to separate the issues. I'm asking the HRA to be committed to a redevelopment on the north side of West 78th Street. South side. Whatever it is. I want them to give staff direction to proceed with that plan of redevelopment consistent with the same kind of financial guidelines we've used in all the other projects. And that the redevelopment take place. Whether or not the civic center or whether or not a convention center is a public facility, that's part of that. I would like to see be a separate issue. Chmiel: Clayton, do you have a full plan all set and ready to go? Clayton 3ohnson: Really we do. Now is every piece in place? No. Was every piece in place when we proceeded with the first project? No. But we have a plan that replats all of our land. That has the HRA participate in removing those uses that are inconsistent with whatever goes down here. The industrial uses that are taking place in this area are no different than the industrial uses that were taking place on the other side of the street, and the plan that we submitted a year and a half ago asked for the HRA's participation in those legitimate functions of the HRA. Which we're to do that. And I guess I'm concerned that we're going to be still here a year from now embroiled with these issues of civic center, convent, ion center, which I don't, I think are totally separate. That's what I originally thought we were on the mission of trying to accomplish and eliminating those uses and those inconsistent uses is dealing with the issue of Filly's and aggressively moving towards that acquisition. And if that means condemnation, you know again experience has taught us a lot. We've been through-every one of these developments and I have-to tell you that there hasn't been one piece of property that we've acquired that we would have been able to acquire had we at least not had the threat of condemnation. And this has been going on now for over a year. Chmiel: And it may be another. Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 3 Ashworth: I think Clayton and I were saying the same thing. Maybe in a different form. My way of putting it is that he would like to take and see us come back to the table in terms of negotiating the purchase of at least what would be the industrial use, which is the'block part of the Instant Webb building and the acquisition of the bowling center property which would include Filly's. And I would anticipate some form of an . option on what might be the remainder. I don't know if from bis perspective if he sees then, we're proceeding without a definite plan. Is there an absolute necessity to acquire the back part of the Frontier building? Building the frontage road, is that? Clayton 3ohnson: I would see the frontage road Don because I really don't see how we're going to be able to do the private or public element unless the determination is made whether or not the-road is to go through. And if the road is to go through, that we provide a buffer for the railroad tracks and that we enhance the parking back there to serve the needs the people in front have. But I can't envision a plan, whether it be public or private development that didn't include making that decision and proceeding. Ashworth: And that means that the first phase, authorization, goal, whatever you want to refer to it, would also include the acquisition of the two existing buildings. I think one is .a metal structure and one is a concrete block structure. Clayton 3ohnson: We're coming to a resolution Don as to how .it would be done and when it's going to be done. Ashworth: I should note that Councilman Mark Senn is present this evening. He did attend the Council goals session. I don't know if I've articulated some of the concerns as he heard them from some of those meetings. I don't know if Mark has anything to say or not. Chmiel: Well, we can either start looking and seeing what's available to proceed, or as Don has mentioned previously, the direction to put us in. And how to accomplish some of the things that we're looking at. And I think we have to really find out, as he mentioned, getting that information back from Hoffman and working with Curt Green and then seeing whether we should have another meeting within a 2 week period. Bohn: Is Curt Green going to be meeting with Hoffman within the next week? Ashworth: The note that I had received said that Curt would be on vacation for 3 weeks. I am not sure as to what the starting and ending dates were there. So I don't know. I would say that's approximately 2 weeks ago but it could have been 3 weeks ago. He should be able to meet with him shortly. Bohn: Dick? Councilman Wing: We keep discussing this community center, and we were hoping to change the name of it...but Don, if your letter's going out and you're looking for community support...some of the problems are going to Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 4 be resolved with Filly's...maybe we're going to pay for half with TIF money. Maybe the other half could actually go to a referendum...make sure that the HRA has exhausted the brainstorming of what might be an alternative use for Phase II of your... Chmiel: And I'm not sure whether the community even wants it there. They may want it some other place. Where that place might be is still in question. Bohn: I think we'd have a hard time getting community money... Chmiel: That's right but I think the main issue of this whole thing is because of what our Highway 5 corridor study has been and what our real intent is in cleaning up the back side of that particular building. Making it something that's aesthetically pleasing as to th~ appearance it is right now. Ashworth: I would be very fearful of a referendum literally occurring at the same point in time that the school is bring back $46.$ million referendum. Chmiel: And I'm afraid that if we went to another referendum and had to go to bonding, that could jeopardize our bond rating as well, and that bothers me. Bohn: What do you want from us at this time Clayton? Can you wait until we get back from Curt Green? Clayton 3ohnson: I felt that a year and a half ago there was unanimous agreement on the part of the HRA that they wanted to proceed with this redevelopment. Nothing happened... Chmiel: Well there are a lot of things really that have been entering into the situation Clayton, as you well know. But I agree, a year and a half is a long time to start some of the things that you want to do. Clayton 3ohnson: I don't think the two are inconsistent. In other words I don't really know why you can't...redevelopment plan for that area without having all of the answers as to what's going to be there. I think everything that we proposed...and tear down Frontier. Or tear down the Animal Fair. That is the... But do you see having, every time I try to rent the block building out, Paul comes over there and tries to stop me...this use as being consistent long term with downtown? Do you want manufacturing over there? I mean these are issues which I don't think have anything to do with the civic center. My tenant just moved out February 28th. I'm looking for a new one...anybody that I'm going to bring over is going to be a problem. We're sitting there paying taxes on it and... Ashworth: I should note that Clayton and Herb have really bent over backwards to insure that they inform us as to what they're doing and how they're doing it. For example, if they were to enter into a 5 year lease with Gedney Pickle for storage of pickle jars back there and we wanted to proceed with a plan, I don't know when we'd finally come to agreement but Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page $ I mean buying out a 5 year lease is very expensive. And Clayton has not put us into that position, although I must say I sense some frustration on his part to the point where he might be just to the point saying, the beck with them. I'm going to go ahead and lease the thing for 5 years if I can. Clayton Johnson: It's been hard. Bohn: Aren't we all in agreement though that we are going to redevelop the back side of the building? Chmiel: Well I'd like to see the decision making that was done before to know what was really done with some of the Minutes from those particular meetings and what directions that was taken. Because there are a few of us that are sitting here now that wasn't here a year and a half ago and I think it would probably behoove us to review those Minutes as well. Bohn: Can we wait until next, until we hear from Green, in what 2 weeks or do we have to wait until the next meeting? Ashworth: The other portion of it would be to instruct staff to pick back up on the meeting in terms of trying to finalize.. We have developed kind of a generic contract as it would deal with the redevelopment but there's a lot of blanks in there as far as amounts to be paid for the actual acquisition of properties. That's another area. Maybe we're a million miles apart. Maybe we're close. Clayton has thrown out some figures which lead me to believe that they will be very reasonable but again, until those blanks get filled in, I don't know. I mean what we could be doing in the next two weeks is assigning the City Attorney to be meeting with Clayton and getting that part of it done. With some of the discussions with the other commissions, we haven't done a whole lot more on the bowling center as well. We did receive a counter from them approximately 2-3 weeks ago and one of the problems bas been catching up with Walston, but we've not made any additional counter back over to them. I mean you could also be asking that we be a little more aggressive in terms of trying to find out whether or not we can reach agreement with them or not. Bohn: So our next step is to have staff look into acquiring the property? Are we under...for the bowling center? Chmiel: No. Boyle: But an offer has been made Don? Is that what you said? Chmiel: An offer's been made and counter offer has not been, come back. We know what we feel the property is worth and go ahead. Ashworth: We had come back to the HRA really with what I'll call an upset number. And the initial offers by ourself have been under that number to give us a chance to continue to make counters. We're still of that position and I would anticipate that we probably could finalize it within the number that you had originally authorized. But we just again, a-lot of the discussions going on, we haven't made that counter offer. Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 6 Chmiel: Let me ask one other question Mr. Chairman. The 79th Street, if that were to go through, how much more area would we lose as far as parking, if any? Within that particular facility. Do we know? Ashworth: You're talking about, what I used to call as 8owling Center Road and I think we renamed it to Pauly Drive. Krauss: Maybe I could. You really don't lose any parking. I mean to get the parking lot serviced, you basically have to build a road anyway. Chmiel: I'm not sure that the proximity where that road is. Is it farther to the south? The back of those buildings and the same proximity that we have that short entrance going in. In other words, there's a partial road that's there now. Krauss: Yeah, all the designs I've seen basically keep it down. Chmiel: Okay, then it really wouldn't affect it. Bohn: I guess the next thing is to instruct the staff to go in and meet with Green and maybe even with Clayton and come back with a proposal, along with costs. Ashworth: Would you'like to shoot for a special meeting within 2 weeks? That's going to be highly dependent upon, is Green back in town or will he be shortly and how quickly can he address what I call the three primary concerns that were expressed by the two commissions and one Council. Chmiel: We'd be talking March 4th, is what you're saying. Ashworth: I don't have a calendar. Chmiel: I have one. That's what I'm looking at. Ashworth: Thursday? Chmiel: Then our next HRA is March 18th. Ashworth: We will notify you if there is any problem with that. If we can hold that schedule or whether or not it will go to the 18th. Bohn: Is that alright with you Clayton? Clayton Johnson: That'd be great. Chmiel: If we can't get that information, if we could get back to Clayton and let him know. PRESENTATION BY Gayle DAVIDG£ ON SENIOR HOUSING FEASIBILITY STUDY. Krauss: To give you a little bit of background first. Four years ago we started actively working on senior needs in the city and I think you'll recall we did a needs study. The number one priority was to develop a senior center. After two years of hard effort and with your support, the Housing and Redevelopment Authority February lB, 1993 - Page 7 doors are now open and it's attendance is growing by leaps and bounds. It's really proven to be highly successful. The second need was identified as cost effective, quality senior housing. We don't have any real dedicated senior housing in our community. Some apartment projects that are older and less expensive that have some seniors in them but there's a large number, or there's a number of our senior community that honestly had to leave town when the~ needed specialized housing.because we didn't offer it, and they live in Eden Prairie. They live in Chaska and what not. We also were aware that there's two kinds of people that are moving into these... People who have grown older living in Chanhassen. And there's a lot of people who are being brought in here by their children who are younger but residents of Chanhassen and they live elsewhere and when they need to have the support of their families, people bring them closer and again, we don't have any housing for them. The need seems to be a growing one and again, with your support using some, very few HRA dollars. In fact I don't think we've used any yet, and using funding with the CBDG funds that we had, we wanted to do a senior housing feasibility study. The study was divided into two phases. First we wanted to ascertain if there was a need. If there wasn't a need, we would end the study right there. If there was a need demonstrated, we would go to a second phase which was to develop some sort of a footprint for the type of housing development we were talking about. Some sort of rough ballpark cost estimates and then look at available sites. The availability of sites is fairly limited. When you look at the parameters being that there's a preference that the, first of all the development has to be located in the tax increment district for it to work. This is not a housing project that the private market's been able to do without some assistance. Not only does it need to be in the tax increment district, but it's preferable that it be within easy walking distance of what. downtown has to offer for obvious reasons. Anyway, we went through an open selection process and had 5 or 6 firms bid on it. The McComb Group, which Gayle Davidge is with, was selected and I think we ran that contract, I mean it was selected by the Senior Commission and then we ran the contract past the HRA for confirmation. Gayle has completed the Phase I analysis. The feasibility study, and that was brought before the Senior Commission a month or two ago. And we had hoped to have some of it, well Barbara Montgomery here tonight. She called up earlier and said she couldn't make it. She's the Senior Commission Chairman. Be that as it may, we wanted to bring this before you so we can keep you updated on progress. What we'd also tike to do is, actually tomorrow morning the Phase II part of this study is going before the Senior Commission so we'll be bringing that to you probably at your next meeting so you can get this in it's entirety. With that, Gayle. Gayle Davidge: I have some handouts here that are just tables that I wanted to, mostly demographics but also a walk through of how we came to the calculations... As Paul was saying, we were hired by the City of Chanhassen to provide the market analysis to determine the Deed for Senior Housing. A need was found to exist and we were asked to recommend the type of project. The size, the unit mix and amenities. The area from which a project attracts residents is called the market area. The availability of health care, shopping and other, churches and community efforts make senior housing very desireable and. Chanhassen has all those properties. As Paul was saying, seniors generally prefer to Stay in or Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 8 near their community or move to where their children or grandchildren reside. The market area was defined based on geography, road networks, neighborhood divisions, and interviews and includes the cities of Chanhassen, Eden Prairie, Chaska, Chaska Township and Excelsior. And that's what's shown by Map 1. Then we analyzed the demographic characteristics of this market area. Table 1 shows the population of the market area and households. During the 1980's, population increased from 33,696 persons to 64,923 persons, or an increase-of over 50~. That's annually. Households grew more rapidly at 7.5~ an'nually. Population and households are anticipated to continue increasing at 3.4~ and respectively. Table 2 presents the market area household incomes, by income range for the 1990 census year and estimate for 1995. Average 1990 household income in the market area is $53,700.00, which is almost $10,000.00 above the metropolitan area average. In 1995 market area incomes are anticipated to reach $64,260.00 on average. That's about $14,500.00 above what the MSA is anticipating too. Chmiel: President Clinton will like that. Gayle Davidge: He would like that. It's an area that has some affluent households. It's a newer growing area. Table 3 shows age by category. A majority of the market area population is contained in t-he two categories of 25-44 or 17 and under in 1990. These two age categories contain 73~ of market area population in 1990. Persons aged 55 or older accounted for about 10~ of the population. Table 4 shows the senior population, i.e. those 65 and over for the census years 1980, 1990 and. an estimate for 1995. During the 1980's the senior population grew by 7~ annually and it is anticipated to continue growing, although at a somewhat slower rate of about 2~ through 1995. The senior population.has also a large...coming behind it of the 55 to 64 age group, which is not shown in this table, and that age group is the one which is going to age in place over the next few years and demand senior housing. Table 7 displays household incomes by age of head of household. This is for the 1990 census year. It's the only year this data's available for. Income is often a determining factor in a choosing senior housing project and as is typically found in the Chanhassen market area, income increases to the 45 to 54 age bracket and then declines. In that 45 to 54 age bracket, 62.8~ of the households have incomes in excess of $50,000.00. By age 65, less than 20~ have incomes in excess. Mason: $o this is just single income? Gayle Davidge: No. These are also dual income households. But it's by the age of the head of household or as shown on the census data when you check the box... (There was a tape change at this point in the presentation.) Gayle Davidge: ...in marketing the finished product to your clients or your senior citizens. Demographic characteristics for the market area and the city of Chanhassen were found to be almost identical. There's very little difference. This cohesiveness will provide the City with a great opportunity to communicate effectively throughout the market area about the proposed project. We looked at competitive units. Table 13 shows the Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 9 senior projects found within the market area. There are a total of 7 projects with a total of 447 units, or enough units-for about 14~ of the senior population. Almost 84~, or 375 units are subsidized which leaves 51 market rate units in the Elim Shores project and 21 assisted living units at Manor House. These are the sole, non-subsidized senior units found within the market. All of the projects reported full occupancy with a waiting list ranging from 3 months at Manor House to 6 months to 2 years in the apartment congregate units. All of the projects, with the exception of Manor House, are apartment or congregate facilities. Manor House is a full service, assisted living facility which provides studio apartments with no kitchens, and a wide variety of amenities and support services and it's not considered comparable to any of the other facilities found in this market. There were no plan proposed or approved for construction projects within the market. Each of the 7 projects is described fully in the full report. I didn't think we needed to go into them in depth here. The strongest interest in the proposed housing will come from current Chanhassen residents, previous Chanhassen residents and seniors who's children or grandchildren live in the community or near-by. Persons in adjacent communities who want to live in a senior housing project but do not have it available will also consider moving to Chanhassen. Table 15 shows the calculations for the Chanhassen market area senior housing demand. The base number is the estimate of senior households in 1995, which is 2,215 units. From this number the subsidized units are subtracted which results in 1,843 non-subsidized senior households. This is the potential for a new market for housing, senior housing. Research and surveys conducted by both the Metropolitan Council and our firm indicate that 15~ to 20~ of total senior population who are eligible and can afford to live in a senior housing project, are interested. Since Chanhassen is located in a section of the Twin Cities where senior housing is well established, it's reasonable to use a factor. In the market that translate to 369 households. Approximately one third of the persons interested in a senior facility will move in the short term, which is defined as a 3 year period. From that long term demand we've allocated one third, or 123 units which represents the current demand. Currently there are 72 market rate units of senior housing which leave an unsatisfied demand of approximately 51 units. That's subtracting the 72 from the 123, which is the total demand. The current unsatisfied demand of 51 units indicates that an opportunity exists for senior housing within the market, provided it is competitive and well located. With a construction start date not yet set, it is anticipated that senior housing will come on line in about 1995. additional 123 units of senior housing could potentially then be absorbed. That level of construction may be aggressive and could result in over building since the time at which seniors decide to move into a project and the time at which they actually move is unpredictable and often delayed as long as possible. Ne have therefore stepped back the number of units that we're recommending for construction. Smaller projects often gain market acceptance more rapidly and this acceptance translates into a shorter lease up and a shorter pre-marketing time. When the project attains full occupancy, and a strong consistent waiting list, it is recommended that it would be appropriate to consider development of additional housing units. In absolute numbers there appears to be current unsatisfied demand for one senior housing project with the option of more developments being absorbed beyond 1995. The ability of the project to meet the needs of the Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 10 population based on geographic location, services, pricing and design will determine whether or not the project will succeed and have a lengthy absorption period. Market trends have shown a shift from the development of owner occupied units to renter occupied units. Rental units appeal to a broader market, both in terms of age and lifestyle than owner occupied units. The slowdown in the appreciation of real estate prices in general has caused housing to be viewed more as shelter than as an investment. Consequently the desire to own property is now motivated by subjective and personal factors more than economic considerations. No rental units specifically for senior citizens exists within the city of Chanhassen. This development will fill a void which currently is in the market. It is recommended that the proposed senior housing be fashioned after the concept of a congregate facility. The distinction and premium value of congregage housing over standard apartment buildings lies in the services, programming and extensive common areas provided to the residents. The target market would be those aged 62 and above. It's recommended that the building be designed along the lines of garden apartments with no more than 3 levels. Elevators, security, extra wide hallways, and generous common areas. The main floor would contain a Service common area which is anticipated to be flexible in nature and allow for multiple use of this space. Other important function spaces will be lounges on the main and second level, and the dining area. A meal program, emergency call system, transportation and staff to assist with activities and program are the key service components. These services and programs may be augmented through outsourcing such as programming in conjunction with Park and Recreation Department, Sojourn, and other senior service providers currently active in this market. Incorporating these services and programs will give the project a marketing advantage over existing competitive developments and will allow for flexibility of the project as the population ages in place. Table 16 shows the units and unit sizes. As I mentioned, it's recommended that 72 units be initially constructed. Approximately 2/3 are recommended as one bedroom units with the other 1/3 as one bedroom den or two bedroom units. Determining the unit mix for senior housing is always difficult in that while interest is initially high at two bedroom units, long term planning suggests that one bedroom units are more viable for most seniors, particularly since they are living alone by the time they choose to move to a congregate facility. Therefore the proposed unit mix appears reasonable as shown on Table 16. Square footages for one bedroom units are recommended between 650 and 700 square feet. One bedroom plus den is 850 to 900 square feet. And the two bedrooms of 900 to 1,050 square feet. It is also recommended that 1 to 4 of the one bedroom units be outfitted as handicapped units with approximately 650 square feet. Unit features should include large in unit storage lockers, french or glass doors for the first floor walkouts or balconies. Kitchen bar or pass thru'area. And in the two bedroom units, it would be nice to have an eat in facility in the kitchen itself. The bathroom should be constructed so that grab bars may be added as residents require them and it would be nice to offer a walk-in shower or a tub shower combination, either preferenced by the ' resident. Those are usually provided in pull out units that can then be popped into the space so you can have either way. Since the development concept for the proposed project offers a high level of services and amenities, it is neither realistic nor necessary'to follow the rent schedule of other units found in the market. However, recognizing that other buildings will be cross shopped is important and addressing the Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 1! difference in this project will be very important in marketing. The compelling reasons seniors elect to move to a senior project is for security, services and companionship offered by in a community setting. Those distinctions must be drawn upon to establish the perceived value of this development. Thank you. Krauss: Could I add just a couple things to tie it together and maybe then we can take some questions. When we started out at looking at this' project, Don and I had a lot of conversations about it and you know in the 1980's there were a lot of very high end senior projects built. A lot of them are still half empty. I mean these are places that are rented for $1,500.00 to $2,000.00 a month. You know they wash your Mercedes in the basement for you every evening. And that appeals to a real limited slice, of the senior market. When Don and I touched on this idea, we knew that the other end of the spectrum was federally subsidized projects. Now there is no federal money out there and hasn't been for a good long time but when there was, and those projects are typically not designed as well as the ones we're thinking of.' They often times had requirements that almost required that the person destitute themselves to qualify. Set rid of your assets you know. It could be a really humiliatin~ experience and we wanted to think of alternatives to that. Other means of providing below market price housing, quality housing to our residents. Well of course you know we have a fundin~ source in Chanhassen that hopefully we use wisely and the idea of usin~ tax increment has always been in the back of our minds, which is why we've been working with you all along. The private sector is not able to provide these units without some sort of public partnership. Now Don and I have talked to a lot of people over the last couple years with different kinds of proposals. Whether this would be wholly owned by the City. Whether it would be developed as a leveraged project with the City owning a part of it and selling off other parts of it to investors who get the tax break because there is a federal tax break for investing in these things. Whether we subsidize a private developer to do it. I think all those things are probably on the table. Once we define the need. Once we define what we think the community should be getting, I think then we want to go talk to the providers. You know we never envisioned managing something like this. There are professional management groups out there that do an excellent job and whether it's Ebenezer or Methodist, there's a number of private ones. Lutheran Brotherhood. There's a whole variety of options, and there's all kinds of people out there waiting to tell us what they can do. So I think the only fair thing to say is the like, well and this is me talking. I hope I'm not stepping on Don's toes but from what we've learned in the last 6 months or so, the likelihood of needin9 to have a project totally financed and owned, dollar for dollar by the HR~, is growin~ smaller. I mean there seems to be all different ways of approaching this and tevera~ing your money and not having as much up front or putting in up front and getting back downstream. I mean there's all kinds of options. The Senior Commission has really been doing a great job on this. I mean we've trucked them all over the Metro area and half the state looking at projects and they love it. I mean I don't like this one. I like this one. And what was a real interesting exercise here was that, when we went into this, staff thought and based upon just a gut level feeling and the seniors thought that what we would come out wanting in here were like cottages. Townhomes. And that turned out not to be the case and I think Housing and Redeveiopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 12 Gayle can tell you, it was a little bit tough'telling the Senior Commission that and we felt, well we became convinced it was for a couple reasons. First of all, we already have defacto senior housing, cottage type development in Chanhassen. We have projects like Chaparral which have turned into, I forget the acronym but housing that turns into senior housing. You know Councilman, or former Councilman now Representative Workman moved out of his townhome. I think it was a senior couple that' moved in and that's fairly common, so there are those options that exist here. But more importantly, I think the Senior Commission came to terms with this and they realized that they'd have to be dragged almost kicking and screaming out of their home. I mean the idea of leaving your home is something that you don't really do, you put it off probably until you have to. Some people would think about it and say it's more effi6ient. It's more effective for my lifestyle and do it, but a lot of people do it when they have to do it. Gayle Davidge: Of their children do it for them often. Krauss: 'And when you have to do it, you're not looking for another free standing residence. You're looking for a community that offers· some level of support and the project that Gayle's described is not a nursing home. It's not a full care type of situation. It's basically a very well designed, attractive apartment building with units that are bigger than normal, with a lot of public space that's designed to accommodate you and your friends as you age in place and more and more services can be provided. I guess that does it for me. I just want to put that in perspective so if you have any questions, we'd be happy to take them. Bohn: Has anybody looked at where they would think about putting one in Chan? Krauss: Yeah, the second phase of the study is looking at 10 or 11 sites. And we'll have that for you in about a month. There's actually more than we thought. When Todd and I and $harmin sat down with a map, we found a lot of them. The problem is, a lot of them you could throw out pretty quickly and the second phase of the study gives, it prioritizes the sites. Chmiel: Yeah, and I think from what Gayle had said, it has to be well located and I think I heard you say that a few different times and I think that's very true and it's a real requirement for a senior center. To be close to shopping, close to the banks and restaurants, if they so choose. And I just heard of another complex that's going in up in Oakdale. Senior housing and it is a subsidized kind of housing as well and these are, for my understandings, sort of like cottages where they have their own front yard, their own grass. It's all maintained with the upkeep with an association kind of thing. They have their own kind of garage and from what I am understanding, and now he said some of the seniors didn't like that kind of approach. . Krauss: Well actually the seniors originally went into this thinking that that's what we would be producing. That that's what the market demand would show and it took a lot of discussion and understanding on 'their part when the information came back and said, well that's not really what you need. Now I've had builders approach me here that are willing to look at Housing and Redeveiopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 13 doing that kind of housing of the public/private partnership. One of the real problems though with that, not only is there not the market demonstrated for it here, but it needs a much larger site. Chmiel: And that's the point I was Just going to bring up here. Your site is going to be conditioned upon it, whereas with the two story or three story can be all within a very close proximity. Somewhere close to right downtown. Boyle: How much property do you estimate would be required to accommodate this type of recommendation? Krauss: I don't remember whatlArVid'Ellness was telling us but it was like a 2 or 3 acre site. Gayle Davidge: 2 or 3 acres, yes. Krauss: Whereas the cottages were 5 or 6 acres. Chmiel: Yeah, and even more because these are put almost like you're talking with Chaparral. They're butted up to each other and it's 4 in a specific location. And these, from what I understand, are anywhere from 700.to 900 square feet. Total. But it's something I'm going to go take a look see at. I'm getting the address of there. I understand there are four different facilities that are being put up on the east side of the city. Krauss: Are these called The Cottages? Chmiel: Yes. They have another name in front of it but I don't recall what it is but. Krauss: In fact I spoke to that fella last week. Chmiel: Did you? Krauss: Yeah. Chmiel: Okay. Bohn: I notice there's 3 or 4 people that moved into Heritage Park Apartments and they all said they moved there because of the location. The one thing they wanted, or required was an elevator because some of them have a problem climbing stairs. But it was mainly the location. Close to their church. Close to shopping. Sayle Davidge: Heritage Park subsidized units are filled by seniors, when I called. A lot of seniors in that building. Bohn: One of them isn't. It's a young couple. Very young, Boyle: I guess I'm kind of surprised there'd be that many locations Paul that you indicated that would fit all these requirements. Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 14 Krauss: Well Gary, you have the w'hole universe of things and you wind up throwing some out. One of the throw aways for exampIe was, we said weII we're buying the Apple Valley Red-E-Mix site and we don't know what to do with it. Would this fit there and the answer came back, welI maybe but it's not a good place for it. So there were a couple like that. We Iooked at some other ones, weII the HRA property on ?gth Street was one. The HRA property at the bottom of Monterey. Down by Rosemount there's a coupie of sites that are in the tax increment district. The better ones, I don't know if I should blow the suspense but the better ones tend to be, and there's some probIems with these too. We Iooked at one across the parking lot here from City Hail, which would involve some relocation of park faciIities, which is the problem. We Iooked at another site over here on the James property. 'Right next to the existing townhouse project which is across the street from the Senior Center. That's probabIy, those are probably the two best ones. Bohn: How about the Schlenk property? Krauss: We looked at Jerry's property and that was one originally high on our list for some things. There are. two things wrong with it. One of the main ones is it's next to the cemetery. Gayle Davidge: I think the Senior Commission just said no to that property. Krauss: Now it has the advantage of being across the street from St. Hubert's which you know. It also didn't-lend itself. It's a real extended triangular piece of property and the building footprint that we're looking at is kind of U shaped and it didn't fit. Boyle: The Senior Commission didn"t like that idea of being next to a cemetery? Gayle Davidge: No, not at all. Boyle: Get up in the morning and look out, I see. Gayle Davidge: That was a no. Bohn: I think probably the best place of course is across Kerber Boulevard from City Hall. That property's a little expensive too. Krauss: Well that's clearly the problem with that site and how can you do that without really intruding into Charlie's development plans. I mean it may Nell be possible but we just wanted to look at all the possibilities and then focus it down a little bit. Bohn: How about the property, I guess it'd be north of the school next to the other apartments. I don't know how big a piece of property was back in there. Krauss: Oh, on the north side of the park. Well that's actually, we didn't look at that because if, what we looked at is where the hockey rinks are now and then buying that other part of it and giving that back Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 15 to the park for the park that they lost, so that gets a little far away from downtown when you're up there. Chmiel: You want it as close a proximity as you can to all these available things they need. Bohn: The next step is looking at sites. Krauss: Next step is looking at sites and then I need to sit down with Don but I think we need to have some, maybe the next step is to look at financing strategies and talk to a range of. Ashworth: Maybe we'll along faster than that...but Todd and I had an opportunity to meet with a group that is currently active in building senior facilities. The type they build is closer to what Mayor Chmiel had noted where you kind of have your own yard and you have the four plexes and they're back to back. But I think in either case, most are predicting that Clinton will be successful in getting in place a bill providing for energy credits associated with housing projects, and more specifically senior and low and moderate income housing projects so those two can be separated. That there will be, that these energy credits are very, very attractive to larger firms such as NSP where they're in a position to-buy those typically for 50 cents on the dollar and which becomes really a bottom line credit for them and supports Paul's position that there are conventional methods of actually financing these projects. So if you've got a $1.5 million project and you were able to generate a million dollars in energy credits that produces $500,000.00 in cash which then means you can walk over to the bank to look for a loan basically as in a 60~ to range. To go one step further, the State of Iowa is so convinced that it will pass on the federal level, that they're already .putting out applications to developers and for projects so they literally can be waiting in line to grab these dollars once they become available. Most experts say that these types of projects will come to the forefront within the next 30 and at the most 60 days and if you don't have your project lined up, you're going to lose out. So I really think that this is an area that we've got to look at very quickly and I'm, I guess the only concern I have of my own mind, well group of them. Should we be looking to solely one type of a project, which I refer to as the highrise which would include the congregate dining. Should you also be looking at some of the other, what I'll call non-traditional type of styles. Then of course the last issue is really one of location, especially as it might deal with a highrise type of facility. If you look around in the downtown area, there's just not that many parcels that potentially would meet all of these needs so. Bohn: Those houses for seniors, I mean there's no way that somebody else could rent them. They'd be strictly for seniors right? Gayle Davidge: Correct. Bohn: Because I know those Heritage Apartments got a few people that weren't seniors originally when they .moved in there. Some just with low income. Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 16 Chmiel: Are there any cities in and adjacent to Chanhassen that is looking at building any senior housing? Krauss: Nell Shorewood is contemplating it. Gayle Davidge: And they're contemplating 24 units in two 12 unit clusters. And they anticipate to sell each unit for $120,000.00 to $140,000.00 each. They're basically small; single level drive-in garage type complexes. They have an emergency call system. There are no other support facilities attached to it. That's the main drawback to cluster housing that we saw was in cluster housing you generally cannot provide the services that seniors need, particularly when they' age in place. Once you move from your house, you don't want to move again. That's one criteria that comes up in surveys over and over.l That moving once is traumatic enough. They don't want to have to move again. And when you have a congregate facility that's very flexible and that allows for multiple uses of the space, you're able to grow with your congregation or your residence. When you have cluster housing, even though you can put in place an emergency call system, you can have Heals on Wheels deliver meals. You can have the Home Health Care Nurse come and do blood pressure checks. It's not on site and that can create some problems. Bohn: Randy? Randy Schultz: Sim, if I can just mention that one of our markets is Sleepy Eye, which is a community of only 3,600 people. About 4 years ago ...a housing project to put in there of 55 units. Reai nice units. Real nice project with apartments and 1 and-2 bedrooms and with garage units and in about 2 172 years they were filled up. They were very successful. Krauss: The Senior Commission's looked at a lot of comparable projects and I didn't get to go on this trip but one of the last ones. they went on was they saw three projects that I think Arvid Ellness designed for the Dakota County HRA. One is in Eagan, one. is in Hastings and one is South St. Paul, or something like that. And these things were full before the doors opened. Sayle Davidge: They were all pre-leased. Boyle: I don't there's a question regarding need. Is there? I mean it's pretty well convinced that there's a need. As Don says, I think we need to find locations and then move. Chmiel: And if there's the availability of dollars, I'd suggest that we'd. pull a rack together and do that filing and see if we can move on those. Ashworth: One of the difficulties at least with, again you're just making best guesstimates as what might occur at federal legislation. Chmiel: Oh sure, yeah. Ashworth: But it would appear as though you would need to take and have the landowners signature as a part of the application. They want to be assured that the land is kind of in place and that might knock out some of Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 17 the potential sites. I know the Mayor and I had talked about the Charlie James property which I think would be very good for that type of use... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Krauss: Don does this to me all the time. We plod along on something and then all of a sudden, well let's do it. Which has kind of made the job. fun but I really think that we're to the point where yeah, we do want to find out the funding strategies. I mean it's long since been made clear to us that we don't have to do a dollar for'dollar investment to get this thing done. There's a lot of creative ways of doing it so what we'd like to probably do is come back with their information on some of those options. Chmiel: Yeah. Do we have any idea as to, and I realize whatever we put into the facility but is there an average cost per square foot for these? Krauss: Well what Arvid has told us is that the, if you want a comparable project, and I've seen the ones-in Dakota County and they look quite nice, they were finished off for between $44,000.00 and $45,000.00 a unit. I think what happened, as Arvid described it is, they were pretty conservative on the first one and then they realized that for a small increment more they can get a much nicer unit so the second one was a little bit more expensive but not much and the third one a little bit again. But it's still a very affordable range. Bohn: Does anybody else have any questions on this? Thank you for coming Gayle. We'll see you next meeting. pRESeNTATION BY FRED HOISINGTON ON HIGHWAY )01 IHPROV[HENT$. Bohn: We'll move onto item 4. Fred isn't here. Krauss: Can I be Fred for the night? I'll put on that hat. We officially mapped Highway, I guess we didn't officially map it but we got a Highway lO1 corridor study done by Fred about 4 1/2 years ago. What that did is it determined the route of 101, basically kind of picked up from the relocated lO1 drop off at Market Boulevard. Figured out the alignment to take it down to 212. Dealt with some neighborhood issues and traffic issues and it was the culmination of a lot of neighborhood meetings that Fred had. And that plan has been in place. We've extended TH 101 south of TH 5 up to Rosemount. Well actually up'to the creek now based upon the plan, and MnDot's bought into it. Well, there's a lot that's happened in the last 4 years. We've been periodically, over the last 2 years I have been working with 3im Curry and A1Klingelhutz-, who are the larger property owners around the 212/101 interchange. Also with Southwest Metro Transit, which is looking to building a Park and Ride facility in the interchange. And what we've been doing is working with MnDot to tinker with the design of that interchange'. There were some of the streets didn't line up down there and the access to properties wasn't very good. And we've got a modified design on the thing. The long and the short of it is, is that because of the modifications we did down here at the interchange and because of where the highway's finished up here at the creek, there's some possibility of changing the alignment inbetween. Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 18 MnDot wants to go into the final design for 212 interchange by summer and they've asked us to make up our minds on exactly where we want this alignment to be. Now there may be some merit moving the alignment a little bit closer to the lake. There's a lot of dead land now stranded between the highway, old 101 and then the lake. $o there's some advantage at looking at that. Additionally, you heard a little bit about the federal transportation bill, this ISTEA bill. Nell the whole environment that highways are planned in is completely different than it was even a year ago. And I think with Highway 5 we've seen the ability to have cooperative relationships develop with MnDot to get a highway design so that it works for us rather than against us. And to get MnDot and the Feds to contribute to things like bridges and better landscaping and access boulevards and all kinds of 'other stuff. Well, what we've done is we've put together a proposal to go back to Fred, since he's got all the information, and first of all look at the possibility. Determine what this realignment should be and we want to work with the neighbors down there. He's already got a relationship with most of them. Determine what that final alignment should be. And then whether or not the alignment moves, the second part of this is almost of greater importance I think to the city and that is to refine the final.design of this highway based upon the new ability we have to use ISTEA funds to make it a better highway connection for us. And hopefully growing out of the experience that we've had with MnDot being very cooperative on Highway 5, getting MnDot to agree to work with us to complete that last section. See MnDot with 212 is only going to build that part of 101 north and south to the first stop light in either direction. The rest of it we've never known what's going to happen. And we'd really like to get'MnDot's, MnDot of course as you know has not thought of putting a penny into Highway 101 since 1935. Which is when they decided it was a temporary highway so why bother. Nell here we are 60 years later and it's still a temporary highway and hasn't had a penny of investment. We think, we hope we can get MnDot to see the validity of doing the whole thing and I guess the Highway-S track reoord is a good one to follow. So we asked Fred to put together a proposal at pretty reasonable costs for us to answer, the question, should we move the alignment. Whether or not we move the alignment and how should the highway be designed and then to work with MnDot to try and get this on their funding program. What he's laid out here is, I think it's a three phase proposal that pretty much follows the way I described it. In terms of funding for this thing, why am I looking at the community center? In terms of funding for it, Fred's outlined the first two phases which are pretty concrete. I mean we know what we're going to do in the first two phases for $14,000.00. The Phase 3 is a little more cryptic because that involves trying to figure out who we're supposed to talk to at MnDot and how we get them interested working with the Metro Council, working with those agencies to get this on their agenda. What I'm proposing is if you would agree to authorize a not to exceed figure of $20,000.00 for all three phases so that we can get this work done as expeditiously as possible. If you do nothing, I mean if you do nothing is okay but if you do nothing what we've, the highway is going to stay where it was, which may or may not be the right place for it. And we're pretty much on our own finishing it. I can't guarantee that MnDot's going to buy into this but it seems a rather small risk to take for the amount of payback that's possible. I mean we've seen that on Highway 5. ~HF~~using and Redevelopment Authority bruary 18, 1993 - Page 19 Ch~iel: Have we had any discussions with MnDot with the proposal that yoQ~'re talking about? To see what their inkle is even. K~auss: I've had several discussions, a number of discussions with Evan .~Teen at the Golden Valley office. Evan's one of the most cooperative /guys you'll ever meet, especially in a State agency. But he's not in a position to say yes or no and we have the change ove¥ from Bi]] Crawford. We're not sure. Chmiel: We haven't had any discussions with Mr. Sigaroot? \ ~ Krauss: No. C~iel: Okay. Bohn: Will that interchange at 101 be stop lights? Krauss: Oh yeah. The way it works is, it's a folded diamond, Just like the cloverleaf is all on one side. And there's a stop light at each end where it can intersect with 101 and then there's a stoplight at Lyman. Then a stoplight at, I forget the name of the street that ultimately feeds it. Well, it's like Tigua Lane, 86th Street that feeds into Lake Susan Hills to the west. And that's the extent of what MnDot's going to build. Bohn: 212 would have no stop lights on it though? Krauss: No. 212 is a favored access highway, yeah. Bohn: So you're asking us for. Krauss: For a not to exceed of $20,000.00 to.refine the alignment and see what we can, see what improvements we can get like the ISTEA program and then to see if we can also get MnDot to come on board and help us finish the thing. Boyle: Jim, it seems to me that this Phase 3 is a necessary addition to the plan. That's my opinion. Therefore I guess if we agree on that, then the issue would be an additional $6,000.00 in the ballpark. Krauss: And if it doesn't, I mean if we run into a brick wall, we'll Just stop it at Phase 2. Chmiel: One of the things I get, I looked at the hourly rate schedule with their principle and professional and technical and secretarial and so on. For the principle they have between $80.00 and $90.00. I'd like to see that as a firm quote, one or the other. More preferably the $80.00. And also on their professional, to be paying $45.00 to $80.00. To me that's a large spread there and I don't know what that really means. So I'd like some firm price quotes for those as they show for the technical and secretarial and so forth. Krauss: We can sure do that. We can have them do that. Also Mr. Mayor, I know you're real familiar, you know Chuck...pretty well I think. Maybe Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 20 as we go into the phases I and 2 and have some information to sit down with him on a preliminary basis. Maybe it's a meeting that you could use your good offices to arrange and we can see how far we can take this. Chmiel: Yeah, I'd be glad to. Krauss: It just seems that, I mean this is a project. This is a road that connects two state highways. It seems almost impossible for MnDot to turn their backs on. Bohn: Does anybody have a motion? Chmiel: I guess I'd move that for the cost of Phase 1 and 2 of $14,000.00 but I'd like to know how the finalized rate that they have is going to effect up to that $20,000.00. It could be less than $20.,000.00. Bohn: Do we have a second? Boyle: I'll second that. Bohn: Any questions? Any discussion? Mason: The only discussion I would have in that is I would hope that if it does look like the whole thing's going to blow up, that we pull the plug on it as soon as we can. I mean I agree. It could certainly be money very well spent but $20,000.00 is $20,000.00. Krauss: Well yeah, I think phases I and 2 have merit under existing programs that we know we can do something with. Chmiel: Hoisington and Koegler have had the working relationship with MnDot regarding TH 101 right? Krauss: Right. They did the original study for us. Chmiel: Okay. Chmiel moved, Boyle seconded that the F~A authorize funding, not to exceed $20,000.00, to the Hoisington-Koegler Group for the proposal to update the Highway 101 Corridor Study. All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVE PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS FOR CHR~flHASSEN ENTRY MONUNENT~. Ashworth: We should have listed that as ancient rather than old. Chmiel: If Clayton was here I was going to say it's probably about 2 years. Ashworth: This project has been onto your agendas for, I'll say like 2 years. But we now have it down to kind of a final position. We followed really the recommendations as provided by 3elf Farmakes. Materials proposed to be used in here are as he had suggested. The lettering is as he has suggested it. Mostly wall details. I did have an opportunity in bringing in Curt Green and Bill Morrish. I mentioned that I had brought Housing and Redevelopment.Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 21 him in to help with the downtown. ! wanted his opinion as to how some of these looked. Using the original scale that had been developed by Jeff, this segment in here was about 8 1/2 feet and it was really Bill's concern that that height sitting out there, $ 1/2 feet gets right up there, you know as far as a wall. $o we brought that back down... If you recall we had looked at a leaf element and that's still possible. I mean it is designed to allow that to go in place. One of the comments made by both Bill and Curt was, is why we proceed with the wall 'installation, you did this out. Now you can get it in and it will be in for this summer. You're going to have to take, if you're going to look at that leaf work, you're going to be looking at some form of an artist and it will not typically be a bid package that would be conducive with the landscaping and the wall type of construction. And they really felt that we might be better off, let's take a look and see what this thing is and they had some real concerns over, before then we would finally go ahead and do the leaf thing, they had some concerns. If you remember it had some curly-q type of things and some of the comments were to, what? What's the word I'm looking for? But anyway, they were concerned about it. 5o anyway what we're looking for is the authorization to move ahead with plans and specifications have been completed. They've been completed based on this particular design and I would hope we could get on with it. - Boyle: Don, would you fill the rookie in as to which location for these monuments? Ashworth: Oh, I'm sorry. Actually there's two walls. One at Market and Highway 5. The secondary one, similar to this only it kind of loses the cap and it's shorter and smaller, over by the Holiday station. The one we're showing here. This one would show, with the total plan. This is also an element that again Bill Morrish and HGA felt was important. Was to maintain a visual corridor through here which then would pick up the church steeple and insure that that sight line was achieved. They went through a number of decisions in terms of, they feel very strongly that the tree elements are really a part of the whole project. That from an architectural standpoint really makes the statement and enhances the wall and it's location. Bohn: I like the design but I still like the maple leaf on top of it. Ashworth: This maintains the position where they do the twinkle light' type of thing during the winter months and they're after green there during the summer. Boyle: What is the cost of this proposal? Ashworth: The wall would be roughly $40,000.00 to $50,000.00, is my recollection. Chmiel: Including the plantings. Ashworth: No. Chmiel: Excluding? Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 22 Ashworth: Excluding. Chmiel: Oh, that's just the cement? Ashworth: Well and the other part was a firm belief that you should put in some trees of a reasonable size and so, by the time'you complete all of the grading, the wall, the landscaping, I would say we would be Close to $100,000.00. Mason: God, that's a lot of money. Ashworth: You want me to stay with the $40,000.00 to $50,000.00? Chmiel: I like that better. Mason: Scratch the last part then. Bohn: What kind of trees are those? ...Are they maple trees? Are they evergreens? Ashworth: No. These are all maples. I mean you've got electrical components going along with this to be able to light up the wall. You've got electrical components as it deals with being able to have electricity through the grove areas. I don't know if they still have any of the. Gerhardt: You've got substantial soil corrections in this area too. I mean this was a lower area and this wall has a footing like you would have in putting up a wall in a house. If it's a 6 foot wall, you have to support it with footings. The soils in this area are poor. Randy took the good piece of land for the bank and he'll tell you that even that piece of ground was wet. And there are some soil corrections that would go along with construction of this wall. And again, you're going to back light it and then put the floodlights in the front to see the name of Chanhassen so you've 9ct to bring an electrician-in. Again, I mean the bidding climate out there, you saw in your packet for the demolition of the Lawn and Sport building was, I mean they left approximately $3,000.00 on the table from the next bid. It's competitive out there right now and you always have the chance to review bids when they come in. I think you're going to get good bids on it. If we stay with the timeframe that I outlined in the memo. But if we delay it another month, YOu're going to be competing with every other project in the summertime. Boyle: So what you're really saying Todd is we open it up for bids. Ashworth: What you're doing is basically authorizing the plans and specifications based on this design and authorizing us to go ahead and take bids and then that's what we would be doing is, the next time you'd see this item, it would be approving the bids for the construction. Chmiel: Or rejecting. Gerhardt: This is a special masonary wall. I mean you're going to have to get a masonary contractor in. This is not going to be a cracked off cinder block, poured concrete wall. This is going to be a very nice wall. Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 23 I mean we're buying materials. That's the way Jeff had hoped and envisioned it. What he felt the concept to the... Chmiel: You know we basically don't have to have a formal motion on the item as it's indicated. Ail they're looking basically is just the agreement to go out to see what the bids would be on this for the locations. $o we're talking roughly $50,000~00 to $100,000.00 and we're talking two different locations of $200,000.00. I think that may be a - little high in total dollars. Gerhardt: Again, the wall over at the Holiday station is smaller than this one. If it's 40 to 50, that one would be more in the 30 to 40 range. Ashworth: And also though, the landscaping costs over there are not there. So no, it will not be $200,000.(>0 for the two. Chmiel: Yeah. That's what I in looking at. Bohn: Are we all in agreement? Boyle: I'm in agreement. Mason: I'm in agreement to take a look at the bids. Chmiel: Yeah. Mason: Remembering we have isome more options yet. I don't know. Bohn: That will be with our next meeting then? Ashworth: No. It takes a 6 to 8 week period of time to advertise and formally take bids, get them tabulated and bring them back. Bohn: Do you have a question? Matt Ledvina: Yeah. Matt Ledvina with the Planning Commission. We had saw some concepts of some monuments very early in '92. The spring of '92 and I don't think we've seen it again and I think we had a desire to see the progression of this and possibly provide some input. I know Jeff has done a lot with this and the specific design but I think there were some others that also we'd like to maybe comment. I don't know if it, who's changing the design at all but at least a progress report as to where we are with it. If Todd can consider talking to us at the next meeting. I don't know if it's a matter of changing the style of the letter, you know that wouldn't represent a huge change order or anything like that... I think they would appreciate some input on it. Mason: I would definitely want Planning Commission input before I made any kind of final decision on this. Chmiel: Absolutely. Gerhardt: I think you're going to have a real fight on your hands if you're going to try to change the letters w'ith Jeff. Housing and Redevelopment Authority February 18, 1993 - Page 24 Mason: Wei1 he' II be there. Chmiel: I think with all the effort that he has put into this, and with the design, and the information that he has provided as to how he has come up with what he has, I agree with him fully. I don't think there's much room for change from what he really has put together. I don't know how many hours he's put in it but I would venture to say that he's probably put over 1OO hours at least. And he does have the background for this as well. Ashworth: Each of those did require then a new change. It's been drawn up at least 3 different times. The consulting dollars we've got into this project far outweigh any other project just because of the number of times we've redesigned it .... problem with taking it back to the Planning Commission but it has been changed a lot of times to get it to where it is nOW . Chmiel: Hasn't Planning Commission seen this at all?- I thought for. Matt Ledvina: We saw it initially in the spring. Have you brought this in since then? Gerhardt: I brought not this concept. The last concept...it was just the wall when it didn't...change where you've got the little step up. They haven't seen that. Ashworth: But they had seen Jeff's right, or not? The drawing that he did. Matt Ledvina: I don't think Jeff made a presentation. We talked about it briefly... Mason: Something that has this kind of. impact on the city I think does have to go to Planning Commission too. I agree with what you're saying too Don about how many times it's been redrawn but I think we've, got to keep everything in line too. Gerhardt: And I think Jeff will be able to persuade the Planning Commission... I would ask him to give the presentation, not me... ~PPROVAL OF BILLS- Chmiel moved, Boyle seconded to approve the Housing and Redevelopment Authority bills as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mason moved, Chmiel seconded to adjourn the meeting. ~11 voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Don Ash~orth Executive Director Prepared by Nann Opheim