1992 07 23CI~SEN HOUSING AND
RED~VELOPHENT AUTHORITY
REGULAR HEETING
JULY 23, 1992
Chairman Horn called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m..
-
NEHBERS PRESENT: Clark Horn, Don Chmtel, Tom Workman, 3tm Bohn and Charlie
Robbins
~T~FF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Executive Dtreotor; and Todd Gerhardt, Asst.
Executive Director
~PPF~/~J- OF MINUTES: Chmiel moved, Workman seconded to approve the Minutes
of the Housing and Redevelopment Authority meeting dated June 18, 1992 as
amended on page 4 to change the statements made by Robbtns to Bohn as
Chariie Robbins was absent from that meeting. AII voted in favor and the
motion carried.
VISITOR PRESENTATION:
CONCEPTLhM. PL~$ FOR ~ LIBIV~ ~ ENTRY HONUNENT 'DESIGN. JEFF Ff~q~KES.
Jeff Farmakes: I'm Jeff Farmakes.
Horn: Are you with the library and entry monument?
3elf Farmakes: I'm not with the library and entry monument. I'm Just'on
the Planning Commission and a citizen of Chanhassen. I've been following
this and I 'ye got a couple of items that are sketches of what' some
verbalization and discussion that you've had and I'm throwing them into the
discussion to facilitate that. From what I've seen, it didn't Seem like it
would hurt at all. I followed this piece Of property on TH 101 and Great
Plains Blvd. and 78th Street since they closed the street down. It 'used to
come down in front of St. Hubert's Church. They made this one piece of
property. Do you remember the road used to come up in. front of the
cemetery and in front ol= the church.. When they closed that down, they got
this sort of triangular piece of property here. It had of course the...
connected out in front of the church. Closing sight line to the old
church. The only sight line we had to the old ohurch-was across, kitty
corner from where that Kenny's development was. What I saw here was the
potential for a specific use that I think is maybe being overlooked. When .
they discussed the library they talked a bit about placing buildings and
where, putting them up in here. Using the same parking lot...and I asked
myself a couple of questions. What type of useage-would be appropriate
here. Next to the cemetery and next to the church. That alone is kind of
difficult to build on that piece of property because there's a certain
amount of stage problems with what you put there. What is relevant ri{iht
there. It seems to me a civic use would be relevant. What !'ye opened up
here is included a garden concept with a water feature. Have it open up
the sight lines from 78th and TH 101 to Old St. Hubert's Church. Where
presently the Old Town Hall and the bars block it off completely. 'When you
enter the east part of Chanhassen to come into the city, you 'see a sea of
impervious surface. You have the parking lot at' the Dinner Theatre. You
have the parking lot at the commercial development on 78th Street here.
You've got a parking lot behind Pauly's and you've got the parking lot over
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 2
by St. Hubert's Church. Basically you have parking lot upon parking lot
upon parking lot. And when you drive into Chanhassen, I've did a work up
up here. This is an overhead positioning of the property. I'll pass it
down there. Presently with what the HRA's owns...additional chunk back in
there that's 300 by 78 feet. That is owned by Al Klingelhutz. There's an
additional room in there by an abandoned rail line next .to that' property.
If the HRA would acquire that property where presently there is a sort of
officized residential single family home that's presently being used as a
real estate office. The potential for additional properties to wrap the
library around into a garden, park area might be feasible depending on what
the final study is on the library.
Workman: Jeff on that diagram, is up we~t?
Horn: Yes.
Jeff Farmakes: This is north. Here's St. Hubert's Church. The present
square would be here which is now Heritage Square. The Old Town Hall which
is now right here be moved over to be part of the facade of an open court
say with the library. Library being back in here wrapped around this end.
That is now parking lot. We have a lot of future garden area. And again,
that pivotal point that people come in, you can see the spire of this
church from the adjacent park. You can see it when you enter from Eden
Prairie. The focal point of the community. Right now it seems that it's
really being under utilized. And it's also one of the few buildings in
Chanhassen on the Historical Register. It would seem to me that the
potential here is for integrating these uses in one piece. That would be a
real advantage to the City. Whereas typically we can handle these projects
separately. The potential here to open this up, reposition Town Hall so
it's not in front of the Church in the trapezoid that we built there. -That
would greatly improve that corner. It also would add a pad of green in the
middle of all those parking lots which would gO a long ways I think to
improve the overall impression of Chanhassen as you drive into it.
Horn: Now Town Hall again is where on your concept?
Chmiel: It's right adjacent to the library. The picture up above in the
upper portion depicts that.
Horn: Oh okay.
Jeff Farmakes: There's a legend on the side.
Robbins: ...perspective of what:s existing now. You .can see where he
takes them out.
Jeff Farmakes: And you can see from'the overhead view, the amount of
impervious surface surrounding it. The only difference, to date the
photograph, the only difference really is the Medical Arts Building that
now is placed there.
Bohn: How many parking stalls do you have?
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 3
Jeff Farmakes: I have 30 some in there. It's overgrown quite a bit so
it's hard to determine. A lot back there is 300 x 78. Then there's an
abandoned railroad line that comes in here. There's probably some
additional footage that could be gotten.
Chmiel: I think the library has looked for 60 parking spaces which on many
Saturdays that I sit out here and I look at the utilization for all the
spots we have now, are never used.
Jeff Farmakes: Another irony of this is, at least this parking lot is not
used very often. And it's really a surrounded parking lot. The question
would be, what is a relevant use of time and when overflow is considered a
problem. But the concept also, if you think of a relationship. If they
build a conference or civic center in-the downtown area, it would provide a
green area, a heritage area where what better place to put a library.
Horn: Might even have room to put a depot in.
Jeff Farmakes: What about the abandoned rail line?
Chmiel: They could also put up, people wanting to go to a library, we have
benches in the outside during the summer. They could go outside and read.
Jeff Farmakes: Have any of you been to the gardens area that's inbetween
Lake Harriet and Calhoun?
Wot kman: Yes.
Jeff Farmakes: There's a formal garden and rose garden. There's a formal
garden after that and then there's a rock garden. The rock garden's would
be very much in tune to the surrounding countryside here. The limestone
and the water feature and perennials. Things of that nature. You could do
something quite unique there. And there really isn't something like that
around here. There of course is landscaping and some gardening on a
landscaping basis but you could do a unique garden here. The'Arboretum of
course...
Horn: Have you talked to the library folks yet on this?
Jeff Farmakes= No I haven't. I was here when they discussed the initial
concept here at the last meeting. It seemed very liquid to me and it
didn't seem to serve any purpose at that point. The library, it seems to
me is an additional part to this. Whether the library is there or not
isn't going to change the difficulty of developing that piece of property.
Obviously a commercial piece of property there next to'the Church and
cemetery, would be a very difficult item and it seems to me that Chanhassen
of course is choosing two strategic areas. Rgain the Market Street and
this particular area could go a long way to soften the effect of having the
large expanse of impervious parking lots. Ne don't have a. main street.
We've got a lot of parking lots as you come into town and having these
greenery spots at the end of Market Street and here would be strategic I
think in adding a softening effect to what we have..
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 4
Horn: We had some discussion after the Presentation last month and I think
it was somewhat of a consensus up here that we didn't think their proposal,
their first proposal was the right spot for a library next to a commercial.
This seems to be much more compatible and it also really does a pice Job of
setting that area apart which is really what we're looking for is somewhat
of a civic area. I really like this concept.
Chmiel: Maybe Don would like to pass that around to 'the, maybe Councilman
Wing would like to look at it.
Morn: I think the obvious next step would be to sell the library group on
this concept. From an aesthetic sense it shouldn't be a hard sell.
Jeff Farmakes: I'd be happy to leave it here... As I said, a lot of time,
I've talked about this...doesn't go very far because one picture is worth
1,OOO words and you can sit down and discuss.
Horn: No, this looks good.
Bohn: Have you talked to Barnes and Klin~elhutz?
Jeff Farmakes: No, no. I haven't gotten, I'm not into any development
here. I'm simply talking an idea.
Chmiel: Jeff came to me last Sunday and we sat down and he brought this
over to the house. We looked at this and I liked the idea of it as well.
So I asked that he be put on the agenda for today so he could present this
and at least give us what the concept could be. He's not trying to sell
anything. He's just more interested in the idea because he lives here. He
resides here. He's also on the Planning'Commission'~s he mentioned. And
like that kind of freshness to come back in.
Horn: I do too.
Jeff Farmakes: I don't think a lot of people realize because it's so
hidden the treasure that that old church is. It's one of the last, it is
the only old building left except for the old Town Hall but it's made of
brick-.
Bohn: We have one other old building.
Jeff Farmakes: We have others...
Bohn: Governor Rice's summer home.
Jeff Farmakes: Yeah. Well there's the...too. My point is downtown here,
we have very little left in the way of old architecture.
Horn: Right. Well that's great. I see you have something on an entry
monument design also. We've not been too impressed with what we'Ve seen so
far so we're looking for a good idea there too..
Jeff Farmakes: I tell you, the monument is also... 'I did a concept
relevant to the monument but backing up and this is maybe more a City
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July 23, 1992 - Page 5
Council feature. Backing up. The issue of identity...and we use several
different logos. And as we're growing and investing in these monument
signs, the idea is to take a look at professionalizing the city image and
tying that together. To give you a couple of examples. This is what
Honeywell does with that. They have a useage book here that is incredibly
detailed. The other end of that, Dick Wing might like this, is Northwest,
although they have a book like this, set up a simplified version. So it
can be done. It can be done without incurring a great deal of expense.
But I addressed the issue here on how the logo is used. The image of a leaf
is used. The image of a boat is used. The leaf changes from yellow to
orange/red to tan. It's kind of all over the place. The...is used from
the old Western development theme, which is really no longer relevant for
what's going on here. It would seem to me that perhaps this should be
reassessed as an overall scheme for the city. The parks', the services, the
water towers, the city itself. Public Safety. I provided the Mayor with-
an article and...same problems as they grew. Different departments went
off and did different things. Different logos and eventually it became
quite a mess. The reason for bringing it up now is it seems it's kind of
pivotal. If we're spending money on some-of these things that we expect to
last many years. We're putting tens of thousands of dollars into this and
should we not look to singling out an image that we're using. Say the leaf
for instance and eliminating the rest. Simplify what it-is we do and
taking into account the useability type...industrial signage. Car signage.
On cars. Things of that nature. $o if you want to pass this around. I've
got two versions of a monument here and as an example ! used a... This is'
called a wood font type face. It comes from when we used to carve letters
in wood. This is an old west font.- The horseshoe type...difficult to
read. I Xerxoed this down to give it proportionage to scale. This type is
actually smaller than this but it's much easier to read. The other issue
on the monument sign that [ saw was the element of type of signage. It
would seem to me that the City would do itself better to use the symbols as
an easier read and then reinforces the type. I've reduced this more to the
shape breakup, the wall...sight line. $o that 'this actually...
Workman: What is that leaf made out of?
Jeff Farmakes= Well ! envisioned this as being like a copper farina.
Green with like a wrought iron black frame.
Workman: I was thinking rust or something.
Jeff Farmakes: Well we had the concern about the...
Workman: See that beast speaks of the more conservative nature. I'm
seeing this thing and not this big.
Horn= ! think we all liked the wall concept. We had-trouble finding some
other structure that would blend in with this. This, I like that.
3elf Farmakes: This would eliminate the stuff behind it. The read.h~re
would be any...stop lights would be anywhere from stationary to 60 mph.
The image would have to be assessesd quickly. This is taller than this.
You would get a greater sight line readout with this, for the distance.
You'd have more read before you get to the type, to identify. Rise, what
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July 23, 1992 - Page 6
pulis your eye to read type? Usually it's a.n image of some sort.
McDonald's uses it. They use the big M first and the McDonald's is
smaller. Images are always easier to assimilate in outdoor situations
where you have about 3 seconds to grasp what it is... The other issue is,
it seems to me that an image also offers some more scale...
Workman: I think for me, and boy I.tell you, the times that we've tried to.
be artists here frightens the beck out of me. But to me that speaks more
of a, you notice it but it's not so obvious that it's not gawdy. And
that's the kind of thing I like about Chanhassen. We're obviously here but
we're not ....
Jeff Farmakes: This is a modification however of this design. The facade
is changed somewhat. It's a little shorter. There's a little bit more
weight around the type. It's still a semilcircular design and as I said
before, it's not the landscaping plan for this is not relevant. I'm
dealing with this through a signage issue. If you read the copy, it's
breaking this out into concept problems with identity. So it's backin~ up
even before the monument sign which is really not the major purpose that I
did this. ~
Bohn: What's to prevent kids from playing on top of the wall?
Jeff Farmakes: Well the wall would be slightly taller than this. But
they'd have to be pretty tall kids.
Bohn: The top one is a lot shorter.
Jeff Farmakes: No, this is relatively not that much shorter. It's just
the centerpiece is a little higher.
Workman: The thing is, I'can't imagine I think we had that discussion
before, a kid, many kids playing there. Stopping or even.
Jeff Farmakes: Well the difference that you're talking about between the
two is this is roughly to scale.
Workman: How tall are they?
Jeff Farmakes: This is not a scale plan but it is relevant to-this scale,
which I'm not sure, this is 60 feet wide. So this is a little shorter and
a little taller to line this up here. If you have'a ruler but right now it
comes to about there. And so you've got that much.
Workman: So it's about 6 feet tall though, the bottom' one?
Jeff Farmakes: It'd be closer to 7 by the time you got to the top.
Gerhardt: The original concept was 6 foot
Jeff Farmakes: Again, what we're doing with that is...does anybody want to
see any of this? These are how other companies manage their identity, and
it can be done quite simply.
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July 23, 1992 - Page 7
Horn: Could we get Don to make copies of that for us? If you could. Well
thanks a lot Jeff. We've been struggling with this for quite a while. We
haven't really come up with anything we like. Any other comments or
questions of Jeff. We really appreciate your work'. It's refreshing to see
something we like on this.
Chmiel: Price is right, thanks. Increase his Planning Commission pay
would you please.
Ashworth: Mr. Chairman, if I may. I have not seen the diagram as it would
deal with the Pauly/pony/Pryzmus area. Todd was just kind of describing to
me. I think that he has presented some very good ideas and we should
follow through on those. The timing is not really overly critical from a
standpoint that the last lease in there is July of i994.' So it's not as
though you're going to rush out and do something really tomorrow. One of
the driving forces in the decision is going to be one that deals with the
location of the library and I think that will become more of an issue
quicker than the actual construction itself. What I would propose doing is
taking what Jeff has presented and making additional copies. Taking a look
at the thing. Hopefully having it back as an agenda item for the HRA for
your next meeting along with again some type of discussion regarding-the
library itself.
Horn: You do want a quicker decision on the entry monument correct?
Ashworth: Yes. I'm hoping, recognizing that Highway 5 is in the process.
of being tore up. The bank is going up. Now is the best time to-carry out
some form of construction. We would still have time at this point in time
if we made a decision this meeting, next one at the very latest, to
complete plans and specifications, have a primary 'structure complete and be
in a position to buckle the thing up, meaning landscaping and what not in
the spring of '93 which would pretty much parallel then the opening of the
rest of the development area. And again I have not seen what Jeff has
presented on that entry monument area so. ~
Horn: Well, let's pass these concepts to the business people here too. I'd
like to get their feedback on it. I think our general comments are, the
consensus is we like what we see. Any other Visitor Presentations?
UPDATE ON BOWLING CENTER/CONFERENCE CENTER/1-1OTEL A, RE.~.
Ashworth: This item was on your last agenda just as a way of back drop.
I think that we've done an excellent Job within the downtown area in terms
of putting together parcels to allow for redevelopment of basically north
side of 78th Street. Market Square is now in place. Americana Sank is
going up. I'm not sure what will happen with Target but you've kind of
given guidelines as to how you want to see tha.t developed. The last piece
in the puzzle is really the back side of the Dinner Theatre, the bowling
center properties. We presented plans as to how that might be
accomplished. How that might meeting the business needs as well as cities.
The HRA generally liked some of the things that it saw but wanted to see
additional cost estimates as to what all of this would cost and how it
would fit together. In an effort to do'that, we did, staff did go back
through and generated cost estimates for each of the elements. But rather
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 8
than simply presenting this is how much. it-costs for this item or another,
we looked at it in terms of saying, let's try to set general goals for what
.
we're trying to accomplish. We have objectives here that we're trying to
read, instruct, hopefully then come to agreement, yes. These are the
objectives and then have staff go back and see whether or not those cam be
met. So in that process we started to lay out what we thought we were
hearing as far as some general goals. We've treated all of this as though
it's a house'of cards. So that if any one major player in. the process does
not become a reality, literally the entire house of cards falls and within,
as we're trying to build this overall structure, there are a lot of
elements associated with each floor. Each particular component. Each wall
in there needs to be structurally sound if it's going to hold the next
floor so again, within let's say the bowling center proposal.. If part-of
that goes awry, it potentially could effect all of the others. Some of the
things that we had presented before regarding the bowling center was
reaching agreement with the owners. If we could literally purchase that
for $550,000.00 to $600,000.00 area. The necessity to be able to audit the
books for that facility to ensure that the City was able to recoup any type
of expenditures it made within a 3 year timeframe. Some of these may slip
off of Target but at least if you set where you want to get to, it's much
easier. Where noted in there reach tentative agreement, not deal killers
as to leaseback. What I'm talking about is the recognition that...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
John Dorek: ...replace it with new equipment, we'd be over $1.1 million.
And the balance of the equipment being purchased such as the, everything in
our equipment and so on, makes that price a very good price, And if you
could buy it let's say. If that is what you were asking.
Robbins: No, I'm Just curious about the valuation of the "equipment" in
terms of whether it's, that includes the flooring. Is that the mechanical
or does it include everything. You say it's bowling has to do with the
flooring, whatever.
John Dorek: It includes everything. I haven't had any offer. Or I
haven't seen the offer.
Horn: Is that your resale value or'replacement value?
John Dorek: The replacement value is what I quoted now.
Horn: Okay, what would resale value be?
John Dorek: Resale?
Horn: Right. If someone were to come in and buy that.
John Dorek: We've been pricing the entire building and business at $1.5
million which is, the market isn't good now but that's a fair price.
Compared to others in this area being sold.
Robbins: Without the equipment in there, assuming Just the building.
What's the market on that building? Assuming it was not a dedicated use
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 9
..
building for bowling. We just had the building, what's the market-on that
bui ldi no?
Ashworth: You've got 40,000 to 50,000 square feet. The MGM building Just
recently sold and that did sell at $60.00 a aqua're foot.
Robbins: And what ts the number of square footage in this building?
Horn: 40 to 50 he said.
Ashworth: So you're at.
Horn: 2 1/2 to 3.
Ashworth: Well, with the equipment in there.
Horn: You said 40,000 to 50,000 at $60.00.
Ashworth: With a specialized use like this where you're saying that that
wasn't in there, it was the whole area.
Clayton Johnson: What's the assessed value?
Horn: That's inflated anyway in this city.
Clayton Johnson: Probably...
Ashworth: Well at one time I think.they had it for about $1.59 didn't
they?
Gerhardt: I think it's down to a million.
John Dorek: That's the building.
Clayton Johnson: So that's $20.00 a foot assessed value. 50,000 feet, a
million dollars.
Ashworth: Again, I think that a fair value might be $1.2 to $1.5 million
but I see the HRA acting almost kind of in a bankruptcy type of a position
where the current owner, if he could get $500,000.00 out of it, he would
accept it.
Horn: Any other comments? Does the HRA generally agree with the goals
presented?
Wot kma n: No.
Horn: Which ones do you disagree with?
Workman: Well I guess I don't know yet what the time line ts on all this.
I do believe the basic concept. I know we've talked about the library
concept. In 1994 in July when the last lease is up over there, it doesn't
seem like a long time for me. It seems like we should be planning now so
that when they tear it down in July of 1994, we're ready to go. And so if
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 10
that is 2 years from now, believe me we could fair that away like that.
This program, are you saying 3 to S years?
Ashworth: No. I would hope that by our next meeting that I would be in a
position to come back saying, all of the owners are in agreement. We've
met the objectives and here are the details associated with that. Within
30 days following that, to enter into the specific development agreements
and construction starting, spring of '93 would probably be the best bet.
Horn: I guess my perception is we're a little ahead of ourselves if we're
going to set a time line before we know, we've even got a concept.
Workman: Well I just got it from the memo. It said a final decision will
not be made for a 3 to 5 year period of time.
Ashworth: That deals with...second phase of the development, area. $o the
first phase, we would be moving on immediately which would be the
conference center section including pool, racquetball,'meeting space,
escalators. Space going up to the hotel. Our construction would parallel
the hotel's construction. We're guaranteeing that we're building our
portion. They're guaranteeing that they're building their's. Second phase
may not occur for 3 to $ years. ~
Workman: Well, my kids will be too old.' My-perverbial kids you know.
Horn: That ruins the whole plan.
Workman: All our kids. The community's children. That's what I'm...
I guess I'd like to see it moving and it sounds .like you're saying it's
going to and I'd like to see Phase 1, Phase 2 move as soon as possible.
Ashworth: If I may add. We haven't heard from the business community
tonight but I honestly think that each of the individuals, whether it be
'hotel, 81oomberg Companies, bowling center, Dinner Theatre, would like to
have seen this happen a month ago. Or two months ago. They don't want to
wait. Bloomberg has to make a decision what should we do at the back end
of that, what's the old City building. They:ye lost a renter. It's money
out of their pocket. If it's going to be converted into something else,
they want to know that. If they need to make a commitment dealing with
knocking down the existing .buildings and building the others one, they want
to do that. The hotel people want-to know that we're for real and that
this is an overall plan and I think that they would be willing to, they're
ready to say that they're ready to do their part if we're-ready to make a
commitment. And the bowling center, John has talked to me a number of
times. They should be working on their fall schedules right now. They
should be out pounding the pavement but he has no idea if the doors are
even going to be open tomorrow. I think John would have liked to have.seen
this done a month ago. Two months ago. I don'.t know where the agenda that
you might like to hear their comments but I think I'm kind of paraphrasing
what you might hear.
Horn: Well I think it would be a little unfair to them to ask them to give
us too much of an opinion on this tonight since they first got the
presentation. What I would like to' see is that by next month you work with
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page ii
them to pound out some of these details and even as far as a time line.
That's going to be dependent on their plans also. But hopefully by next
month wa'il be in a very good position to have this thing pretty well along
and more solidified. I think as a concept, what we're .seeing here seems to
make sense and we saw that. Now we're seeing the beginning of a plan put
in place. Obviously this is catching the business people cold but I think
a lot of legwork has to be done between the next meeting. Between now and
the next meeting to make sure Ne have a solid plan they can live with. If
you have any general comments on this. you know' initial comments we'd
certainly be open to them but we're not going to commit you. pin-you down
tonight to say yes. I agree with every one 'of these goals. Yes Clayton.
Clayton Johnson: Clark, maybe 'just one comment I would make is that I
agree that right now it is a house.of cards but at some point in time I
think that is the role of the HRA is there's going to have to be a
commitment made that all of these things aren't intangibles. We really are
pressed to proceed with the hotel project and I think what we're looking
for is a commitment that Phase 1 is going to happen. The staff plan as I
read it has a few little new wrinkles in it that we did not include in our
plan and one of them is the tearing down of the rear-of the Frontier
Building. I mean that was not considered in our plan. But I guess at
least the commitment to do Phase 1 and sometimes that commitment means a
commitment to condemn and I don't think it's unreasonable to .ask us, the
Bloomberg Companies, to reach an agreement with you on the parcels that
effect us. But I think other than.that, maybe at some point in time we're
looking for a commitment from you that includes the threat of condemnation
if that's what it takes to make it happen.
Horn: I think we've heard last week that as a group we like the overall
concept of what we saw here. I mean this is, we've had a -couple very
difficult areas. This is one of them. Tbs heritage area is one of them.
Our entry monuments has been one of them. Tonight things seem to be kind
of gelling into something that makes sense for all of us. Any other
comments on the concept? You had some concerns earlier?
Robbins: No, it wasn't a concern. It was just on Don's and maybe
Clayton's also stated too about the house of cards. It was just more of
Just a general, because we know a house of cards, when the. cards fall the
deal falls apart. It looks like there's some pieces here that have to alt
pull together. ! guess it would just be a question if all of-a sudden
halfway through it one of the parties says no, I've changed my mind. Wha~
does that do to the rest of it? Does it collapse the whole party or do we
have to go around that or do we have to restructure the deal? I would just
be interested about, not tonight but maybe at the next meeting. Making
sure the players, what's the liabilities I guess if one party backs out.
Horn: Other comments?
Brad Johnson: Clark. The questions...answered, has he even authorized the
purchase of the bowling alley? I. see that as the critical point of this
whole thing. The rest of us are probably going to work with you.
Horn: I think that's one element in the plan. We can't very well go ahead
and authorize to purchase the bowling alley unless we've got a whole
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, i992 - Page 12
concept here to work with.
Brad Johnson: And I would say that will take 2 to 3 months and then he's
not going to be in business. That's how I see it.
Horn: I guess what I'm hearing here is that by our next meeting, those
kinds of issues are all going to be re~olved and-we're going to know
whether we've got a plan or not.
Brad Johnson: But the one element that we're missing is the authorization
to purchase the bowling alley and nobody's here to represent the-bowling
alley...
Ashworth: Staff and maybe to some extent maybe exceeding authority but we
have through our attorney, back to their attorney and realize that they had
first approached us. So when we have made a counter position of the
$500,000.00, we have done that on the basis of starting negotiations. Now
if we get to a point where we feel comfortable in presenting that, whatever
their counter offer might be back to the HRA, it would be at that 'point in
time-that you would be authorizing staff to proceed. But at this point in
time, we have no idea. They could come back and say, one million dollars
and then the deal is off. I think it's important. You make the initial
contacts. We continue to negotiate with them until it comes, down to a
point where let's say we're close. Then ~e present that offer to the HRA
and you make a final decision. Yeah, we. should gO ahead and authorize this
for the amount that Don has brought back. Or no, just tell them that it's
not going to work.
Horn: Do you anticipate being in that position at our next meeting?
Ashworth: Yes I do.
Horn: Other comments or questions.
Chmiel: I guess some of the concerns that I had were some of them
mentioned, if you hadn't already done. 'Some things that you've mentioned
and there still is a lack of that full tying us together. Knowing where
business people are going to go. If they're going to go and whether
they'll go. I know John's in. a very binding position, being with the
bowling alley. Unfortunately, everything has to ~ork as ~ell as with his
and I'd just as soon see that go, if it continues to go. But that's
something I think we have to pull together and that you're going to do.
Horn: Can we get a consensus from the HRA that if we can meet the general
objections that have been outlined here, we' want to proceed?
Workman: Clark, I'd like to better see a layout.of what exactly is Phase 1
and Phase 2.
Ashworth: Phase i is that area on the map identified, let's see. Phase
is, it's the first map.
Horn: It says Phase I on the map. Phase 2 is over here with the community
center.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 13
Ashworth: Right. It's identified as lots.
Horn: This is Phase 2. This is Phase
Ashworth: Right to the right of Lot 6.
Workman: The meeting room is part of Phase 17
Horn: Right.
Workman: The bowling center is part of Phase
Horn: Right.
Wot kman: Cinema, Phase
Hot n: Yes.
-.
Workman: Everything except what ts community center?
Horn: Right.
Workman: Okay, then my confusion 'rests with what then is this community
center mean if convention/athletic facility is in Phase i. What's the
community center in Phase 2?
Ashworth: Well, and there's a lot of discussion that that potentially
could go as a retail area but if you look at the configuration. Let's
assume so that it does become a community center, the one little Jogged
area. That's the two gymnasiums.
Workman: So we wouldn't have gymnasiums in that first athletic facility?
Ashworth: That's correct. And reduction the number of racquetball courts.
There would be, I'm not sure. What was the other elements that were lost
i n that?
Horn: Other comments? Looks like we have a plan starting to form. Yes
Richard.
Richard Wing: Just as a resident, I certainly support this. Unfortunately
the entire complex ~as done at a time when the island concept really was...
$o I'm really enthusiastic about this and I'm really positive. I think the
real danger...but I'm left with one question as it relates to the community
center. We're talking about a new school going in with, it's suggested
anyway with large athletic facilities. Pools and gymnasiums and whatever.
$o I'm not sure how the new school might tie into the community center but
the community center that we talked about, well there's two things. First
of all, an enormous pressure for youth in the city. What are ~e 'doing for
our youth? We want a community center. We ~ant a youth center. So on
and so forth. Then I look at this and I see a real classy hotel and
meeting space, restaurant, bowling alley, cinema. Ail things that I want
to transit. Do business with but then suddenly, right next to it is a
community center. Now if this is a class affair and a dome style
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992- Page 14
center, I think it's compatible. But this is going to become the city's
youth center, youth community center, then I get worried because suddenly
now we're kind of mixing gas and water. $o my concern is the definition of
community center. What are we trying to accomplish? Where's does it leave
the youth and is this replacing the referendum that was turned down?. I'm-
not sure. Are we still going to be looking for a community center
somewhere else in the community? By City Hall o~ wherever it's going to
be. Or tie it to the new school. What is the definition of community
center and what's it's intended use?
Horn: As I recall from last month, this was more of an adult type
community center.
Richard Wing: That's clear then to everybody?
Horn: That's my impression.
Richard Wing: Because I can see others coming out and saying wait a
minute, we've been crying for some youth activities and youth center in
the city and how come the HRA's got money 'for an adult athletic center and
we're... What about the referendum for a community center? Are we-going
to build this and a community center and a school or is this going to
replace the community center that was turned down?
Ashworth: If I may. One of the reasons that it's been drawn kind of as it
has. The first phase would definitely orient itself to more adult
activities whereas Phase 2, which would be closer to community center type
of uses, meaning that the two larger basketball courts, it could be broken
into the four additional locker areas that would' treat more of 'the family
thing. Would be in that Phase 2. If in the meantime one of the schools
develops in Chanhassen. I don't know which one. 'DiscUssions of a high
school, middle school, elementary. And we were able to provide that
expanded gymnasium space adjacent to that facility, then this area here
truly could go as a retail or expansion on this other. If on the other
side of the coin, the school option really doesn't work out and we're not
able to put the youth component as a part of that facility, it could be
developed on this site literally to the east of, what I'll call the adult
type of activities that are being in this first phase. And the highlight
of this first phase is really the conference center component which
includes the auditorium area. It does have the pool along with it which-is
going to be a very nice feature but it's primarily gearing itself to the
business community in concert with adult type of activities.
Horn: I think Dick the thing on here is the .key is the phasing type.
Whereas the second phase we might not know today exactly ho~ that's going
to develop and that may be more dependent on some of the other events that
happen and what we envision today might not be what happens there tomorrow
but it can be, it's got several possibilities .of options we could have
depending on what occurs in the meantime and as Don stated, that would be a
little bit longer term than the first phase. $o I'm not sure we could
really be certain today what that's going to be but we do have options
there and one of those uses should be compatible.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 1S
Workman: I guess.for me, and I hear what Dick is saying and I wasn't at
the last months meeting but I was at the previous one when we initially
talked about this at the Fire Station. I think it was 2 months. What was
appealing to me and why I'm quick to support is because of some of those
other useages. I find it very difficult to support an adult, or perceived
adult only athletic facility and gyms. Gymnasiums. But what makes it
appealing to me is that we can, if we got t~o gymnasium~ in a new middle
school somewhere in town, it would do very, it would start to do something
about the dent in the facilities that are lacking in this area. These two
more would help but we could still use more. $o two gymnasiums don't fix
anything. I've told the boring story about !'m a basketball official. I've
been in every community and just about every gym in the metro and this town
is lacking. More than any other community I've ever been in. And so if
we're directing, I guess being the impatient one on-the Board, my feeling
that we were going to maybe get some community useage out of a gymnasium
instead of gymnasiums, with the rest of this is what was most appealing to
me. I am interested in helping the hotel and I'd like to see a cinema and
I'd like to have a meeting room which would maybe be used'by more people
out of town than even in town but I thought and felt that the community
athletic facility was going to be used for youth in the community and that
was one of the reasons why I was supporting it at the time. I couldn't get
away with supporting a couple of gymnasiums that were going to be intended
for 40 year olds doing aerobics. I couldn't.
Horn: You'll be 40 someday too Tom.
Workman: I know that but we don't have, we just don't have those
facilities in this town. There are going to be a lot of questions, asked
about that.
Horn: Other comments.
Chmiel: Yeah, I 'd just like to chime in on that part of it. When I looked
at this before, I presumed that this was going to include younger members
of our community to provide them with those additional things. And ! think
by Just having tendencies to keep this strictly to adults. I'm n~t in
favor of that either for that portion of it. I think the kids need
something within this community. I think this can be worked accordingly.
I think that's where it should be.
Horn: And i think the right scheduling typically goes with, John I'm sure
is well aware of this since you tailor your programs to the times that they
are applicable to different age'groups. Other comments J If not, I guess,
do you need a motion from us on this or a consensus of where we're coming
from?
Ashworth: A consensus that you ~ould like to see staff meet with the
owners and to determine whether or not the goals and objectives that we've
set in here can be met.
Horn: I think what I'm hearing is, that we'd like to-proceed ~ith that and
hopefully by the next meeting have a general consensus so everybody
involved in it that this is what we want to do. And we're certainly
positive toward the plan. Our only reservation at this point are a fe~
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 16
deatiIs that need to be worked out and maybe the fact that we're not sure
that everybody's on this plan yet. 8ut if we can come back with that next
meeting, I think we can proceed.
UPDRTE ON THE HIGHWAY 5 ~ M~RKET BOULEVRRD ENTRY MONUMENTS.
Horn: We're going to get Option 2 this evening for the entry monument
plan.
Ashworth: I don't know if it would be Option #2. From our meeting, and
believe it was from 2 months ago, actually 3 to 4. months ago, I thought
that we were close to.
Horn: Excuse me Don. Did you have time to comment on the first
presentation that we saw for the entrance monument and the library? Did
you want to make comments on that before you leave?
Herb 81oomberg: Well I think there have been some study on that and I
think that some things are pretty obvious. For instance coming in on the,
across on TH 101 there. The monument is so close to the ground that even
the...and I think it's just one of those things you have to try to think
again... And obviously we'd like something distinctive and unique. The
possibility of getting some volunteer competition on this sort of thing I
think sounds very interesting... Interesting publicity for the city and
also...national basis. So ! think the suggestion is very valid. That if
it can be done without a particular cost...let some of these people pursue
it. Give them some encouragement and find out...national basis. I think
that we've sort of lucked out. I think that the number, the $ Highway, to
the south the way it's going to go to that hill. I remember when that was,
the city when the highway department took it some 20 years ago and we felt
that it was too close then because of...use that land very well between the
railroad tracks and the highway. And as it tur~ed out that was a blessing
because if they didn't want to do it because it would cost more. They've
had to use more fill in order to get to the...railroad and so forth so they
cut through kind of close. But now ! think that our view of out city as
you drive through with the landscaping on both sides and so forth, is quite
beautiful. And our approach for travelers comt.ng on number 5, that we
really have an attractive city approaching from the west or approaching
from the east. So I think...and I'm real pleased. I think this Highway
treatment would be, with the lane on the side for bicycles and walking and
all of that and the landscaping I thir%k is just a real, just a new type of
highway here and it's nice that Chanhassen got to be .the early one in the
Twin Cities.
Horn: Thanks Herb.
Ashworth: Mr. Bloomberg, would you be able to stay to listen or watch some
of the films? We're going to put on a demonstration of what this might
look like. Would you be able to stay to look at it? We're going to do a
video of the entry monuments.
Herb Bloomberg: Oh you mean you have something-now?
Horn: Yes.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 17
Herb Bloomberg: Oh certainly.
Ashworth: I don't know if any of the other business people have left.
You may be disappointed in that you're going to be seeing basically some of
the same things that you"ye seen before but the primary purpose is to
ensure that we get a feeI for the scale of the project and what it's going
to look like from the highway. I've felt that from 3-4 months ago that we
had kind of reached agreement. Yes, we...
(There was a tape change at this point in the meeting.)
Ashworth: ...the only thing I would ask you to consider in looking at this
is, the recognition of the scale of the projects themselves and property is
very low. So if you're going to be able to catch the eye of the passer by,
you're going to have to do something of a relatively large scale. Whether
it be some of the things that you're seeing. The other part of it was
that, when I went back to Gins Bonsignoire who did the work through the
University, she felt that maybe this is her faul that the thing .had gone
down because she did not have an opportunity to, she was in the process of
getting married. She was like 2 weeks before she was going to be married
and flying back to New YoYk. She didn't get an opportunity to'put in some
of the landscaping and the wall conditions that had been recommended
before. And one additional point and that is, we had met with a firm
called Macro Media and they do a similar type of presentation. Not as
happy with what they have completed. Again that's the first one tha't
you're going to see this evening will be the .work that was done by Macro
Media. But it gives you an idea of what it is you might see as you come up
to that monument area from the 4 different directions. $o it's a little
different technology. Barry, did you want to.give any additional comments
before we start?
Barry Warner: Yeah, just a few things. We've been working with this
collectively for about 30 months, to be honest. It seemed 2 l/2 years ago.
is when we collectively started pursuing what Highway'5 would do as a
downtown and try and provide some gateway elements into the downtown area
from a realigned roadway. And ironically you're starting to see the,
somewhat the fruits of your labor because the textured or embossed.
concrete, the poured concrete that's going in in the median, will go io
within the next 4 to 6 weeks. At the. same time, so will the clay bricks
that are going in radius area. So that is, that's really in front of you.
You look forward to that occurring. But I think there also comes with it a
window of opportunity called, let's get this thing wrapped up. Let's get
this thing done. The highway is going to be done this fall and that is
going to leave at the intersections of Market and Great Plains a scar on
those intersections where landscaping and some monumentation should occur.
It's been my impression to date that the HRA has had several consensus that
there should be some type of a radius wall. And there should be some
landscaping. I think what we have to deal with here is should there be a
monument of earth alignment, and if so, what should that be. This started
some time ago and we went...and what's the downtown character now as well
as in the future and I think Jeff also was trying to highlight on that to
some extent by saying, let's look at the logo. And let's have some visual
impression of the community that can be expressed that really makes a
strong presentation. And I think if there's anything we have to come to
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 18
grips with in this meeting is to try and get off dead center. Try to come
to grips with what visual needs you want to present...and let's'go with it.
Because as I said, I think the window of opportunity is right in front of
us right now. From my standpoint, I'd like to make sure that when that
highway opens up...so that monume~tation is in place and when people see we
have a new highway, they also have some very progressive entrances into the
downtown. Not progressive necessarily in terms of being a contemporary
expression but in terms of Chanhassen is.extending it's arms out to Highway
5 and inviting people into the downtown. So that's really where we're at
and as Don pointed out, the visuals that have been prepared are to help us
to visually portray what could occur. And if it's not what you're looking
for, then we need to pose that tonight and try to go where we should be
going as a group. So...
Horn: Okay. I think we all agree with that.
(There were problems with the audio during this portion of the meeting.)
Barry Warner: Mike Niemeyer who is an architect from Campbell-Green who'
also resides in the community, was planning to be here tonisht. You might
remember there were two alternatives that the Council and the HRA had
basically arrived upon some meetings ago-so the videos you're going to see
tonight are two different impressions by two different video artists
represent that more contemporary than the traditional monument. $o those
are the two we're trying to take a look at.
Ashworth: One of the problems I have with this particular one, they have
not quite got the scale correct but the height...higher than it is wider.
It should be wider...
Horn: The other problem is, it's too close. I mean we should be getting a
perspective from the highway. Here you're right there.
Ashworth: One of the technologies...is to look at this from different
angles. Move farther away and then back closer. $o this is like coming...
Market Blvd.. As you're leaving Rosemount. That would be the, now we're
west of the Market 81vd. area looking back to the east. You ~an see where
the bank has just gone. in...
Barry Warner: The only comment I'd have is, consistent with what-Don said.
I think this computer visualization company made the monuments taller than
it would appear. It is not in scale...
Workman: Is it taller than this?
Barry Warner: No. It's shorter than what it's appearing. I took a look
at this yesterday and it looked to me like it was maybe...as they have
portrayed it. In. reality... The second tape you-'re going to see is, as
Don pointed out, the University's Computer Lab. $o they have'taken', they
use a different technology. They take a single vantage point and then
going in with an image. You'll see both different alternatives in here.
Ashworth: They're limited to a singular location. This is basically what
you had seen from before except again, Gina felt bad that she was not able
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 19
to take and soften it the way...These two are to scale...wall is about 6-
6 1/2 feet in height. The monument itself sitting behind that would be
about... The lanscaping, the amount of tree conditions makes a very nice
backdrop... It does provide, it's harder to see the.bank and a lot of the
stuff behind the bowling center and... Here's the other one and I thought
this came off quite well. I would really have been concerned with the
material, especially to use something similar to the old City Hall. But
Barry assures me that...aluminum or the vinyl type of siding, is that from
a distance you really cannot tell any difference between that and like a
cedar. Where some of the brace elements could actually be more solid...
Workman: It appears as though somebody should be buried under that one.
Maybe like a...
Ashworth: Barry, did you have any additional comments?
Barry Warner: I think that what we're presenting tonight are what
Campbell-Green had shown as the two different images. We need, we're
requesting direction from the HRA in terms of what your sense is regarding
either one of those alternatives. 'Whether a vertical element should be
continued to be pursued. Whether you like the'idea of a vertical element
but these are not the two that you like. Or whether we should pursue the
monumentation, the radius wall, taking into consideration Jeff's
presentation tonight and droping the vertical element. So I guess
direction is appropriate at this point and we'll certainly carry forth
whatever your desire is.
Horn: Well I'm not so sure that Jeff's did have a vertical-element to it.
Just the circular vertical element. Maybe not quite as'big.
Jeff Farmakes: Could I make a quick comment here?
Horn: Sure.
3elf Farmakes: My major intent of showing you that was really to address
the issue of identity. I'm sorry this is interferring with time schedules
in what you're doing but it wasn't my intent to... I think this is just
one facet of the problem, the monument. So what do You do on your new fire
truck? What do you do on your water tower?. What do you do on your, there
are a lot of different facets to this, different uses besides this
monument. And then the question becomes what is appropriate and what is
workable to use to differentiate... $o if you do it differently, a
monument or you do it differently on the truck, and you differ too much',
you're losing your overall image...to get back ~0 what you said. Yes, I
do, there is a vertical element on there and I...
Horn: You looked at yours was a maple leaf. This monument had a maple
leaf in it also. Is that the type of identity you're looking at or is it
how you present the identity?
Jeff Farmakes: I would suggest...the maple leaf is unique.to us here...
but it gives us an identity...the city stationary they use a sailboat.
Sailboats are used in Excelsior...and Mtnnetonka. When. we use two
together... But they're directing some of what I did here...
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 20
Horn: Well what's your impression of these? The two types of
presentations of the maple leafs? The one that you have with basically
circular versus the more striking vertical element.
Jeff Farmakes: My first impression is...overkill. Simplify it but that's
a personal opinion and I like the direction. The way he emphasized the
issue of the type. That's what I was struck fi'rst...di~ficult to read,
particularly if you have a heavier version that you use... The fact that
it's there...it's Just difficult type to follow along the baseline...
Horn: That's a good point because that's the thing I noticed about this
first monument is. Chanhassen's kind of sideways, written uP the side
which seems to me to be not very...
Jeff Farmakes: Well let's a reinforcement. They have it horizontally.
You can argue it as a piece of art but what you can't argue is how long it
takes somebody to read type and how somebody reads type. There's a
mechanical science.to reading type. And how long you have to read it, what'
type of sight line it is and those are the things that you can't argue
with. There are some types that are easier.to read than others. And there
are different weights of type.- If you use a heavier weight outdoors, on
stationary you use a lighter on. You have flexibility there-but when
you're directing the overall image away from the type,... 8e it an M for
McDonald's or a Northwest or whatever. It's the image itself and at least
there's...
Horn: Other reactions to the presentation. Either from the Commissioners
or the audience.
Chmiel: I'd like to hear the audience first. Right now.
Horn: Dick, what do you, do you have an opinion on th~s?
Richard Wing: Well I really, Jeff designed the flyer for our...his ideas
for a 5 inch square... I've been here 30 years. To me chanhassen... I
guess my only comment on the mondment is that,'to me'the trees are an
intense part of the central plan. I'think the area and with foliage...
natural background is a critical issue to the monument. And the trees kind
of come around and...they don't hinder your sight line at all... It's very
complex...
Horn: Right. Any other?
Herb Bloomberg: You more or less invited me to stay and see this. I think
about, the thing 'that's gone on here for quite a few years is...events,
occasionally a joke or different things and...comparison. I'm Just talking
about the word attention. In seeing these couple of monuments, the one
that strikes me, and it comes from an old thought I had many years ago. I
like the one with the sort of a windmill, in it or something that would have
a chance to be sort of a living monument. Something' that could be...
decorated or emphasized seasonally...obviously you have the Christmas
season. You could have...the 4th of 3uly or election time. So the people
coming through would, it's going to be prominent enough so you can't miss
the thing. I think that's very obvious that it be large enough so that it
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 2!
would be seen. And I can say something in more of a skeletal frame-to hold
it. I like the motion of the top...and introducing the maple leaf or
whatever we're using in some sense. Haybe that was already in there but
the idea would be the base then that you could use for, to give a story.
And I think that the community has enough organizations at various times to
contribute so that you have sort of a living thing that every, as you drive
through people would really pay attention...worthwhile looking at...maybe
give a little message. It could be of course electrified.
Horn: Clayton or Brad or Jim?
Brad Johnson: I would say actually Herb just right at the very end when he
said electrified. I was going to ask Jeff, not to throw a wrench in. I
think it should also be something that can transform from day to night.
And I don't mean Put floodlights on it. And whatever the essence of this
is going to be during the day, that it's somehow...lighting.
Horn: Okay, commissioners.
Robbins: I guess just on the, it would appear to me that throughout the
theme of the town we've been looking more of the, should we say the gabled
roof. The very traditional type of a building like the hotel is built.
The roofs and then all of a sudden we've got a vertical monument that
appears to be modern and it would seem to be, to me anyway, it appears to
conflict with the theme that we're doing. I do'like the idea of the wall.
! like the trees. I like the word Chanhassen. Whether it be typed, that's
irrelevant. I like the word on there. Whether or not we need a monument,
a vertical, I'm not totally convinced of that. I don't necessarily like
it. It doesn't mean it's not nice. It's just personal opinion. I.like
the more of Just a nice rounded look and the maple leaf look and without
going into the vertical spiral if you will.
Bohn: I think the one that's all three of them. The one that impressed me
the most is the one that Jeff showed us. I think it's the most plain with
maybe a copper or a brass maple leaf.
Workman: I do like Jeff's, after.looking'at them. It reminds me of the,
Jeff. What's the material on which that maple leaf would be made? What
were you saying, brass?
Jeff Farmakes: Pardon?
Workman: Did you say brass? Copper?
Jeff Farmakes: Both. Put a fatina a copper to what's exposed to air.
That could be commercially done. It could be really done. Ih could be
fake. There's several different types of' material. It's basically kind of
a bright, minty green. It's a natural green but it's the kind of green
that you get when you, the roof on the cathedral in town. That's a farina
copper. Channel 4 building has a farina copper roof. It's a natural color
but it's not a dark green.
Workman: One of the monuments that I'm thinking about that I find very,
looks like very high quality, it's kind of stunning. Ii= you've ever been
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 22
the entrance of Deer Run. That heavy steel that's cut out of that steel.
That deer. That's what I thought in that circle, because that deer is kind
of jumping out of that circle.
Jeff Farmakes: Well actua.lly I got the idea for the circle from Excelsior.
If you look at the grates underneath the trees, they're in a leaf motif and
it's a nice, kind of wrought iron imagery. Of course'it's nothing that
you'd want to...but it adds a simplicity to it and let's face it. Our
history here doesn't go back that far and it's simple and like our church.
It's American Gothic type church. It's not a true Gothic. It's been
simplified. It's Midwest. Not the type of cathedral that you're going to
see out in New York. It seems to me that that sort of reflects more of the
history that we have here.
Workman: I guess the green kind of, I guess I'm looking for something
that, in my mind is more natural looking. More of a darker red or darker
reddish rust. Rustic looking, like that Deer-Run.
Chmiel: Well the farina I think is right on 169. That new church that's
at the intersection just prior to 169 splitting off.
Workman: The Wooddale Church.
Chmiel: Yeah. On the side there. And that really depicts the fatina as
to what their tower is. And what Jeff.is saying too, with that green and
with the black or whatever around it, I think would offset-and really give
that a real neat looking appearance really. The only thing I don't know
and it's per scale as to what that would really look like. Those vertical
elements, I've never been really too enthused with either/or. And as Tom
has said, it looks like you should have someone else there underneath the
bottom of it. And then I started thinking maybe a little bit with that big
vertical element with the maple leaf' in there, no pun intended, putting all
these service peoples names on that. Those who have died in respective
wars. Maybe that might, have something ~or us but, it's just something that
came to my mind as to what it tells me. It almost looks like the wall that
they put up for the Vietnam people. And to me it's not warm. It's cold.
It doesn't give me that appeal that I'd like to see. As Barry said, let's
get off dead center with it. I don't disagree with it but I guess from
what I've seen, I don't like. What I've seen tonight with what Jet~f even
showed me last Sunday, I do like that particular portion of it. And I
think if we're to pursue something, I'd like to see us go in .that
direction. And I don't disagree with what Barry's saying either. Having a
taller structure to beckon to those people. I think with this being to the
heights as to what it is and with the wall .going up as shown, I think that
that has a lot more appeal.
Horn: Okay, well I'll be the first to admit that I'm no artist but I did,
Jeff's rendering tonight is the first thing I've seen that I've been really
excited about. And I think we have a consensus from this body that that
concept is something that at least appeals to us. We recognize the need to
get moving on this. However, I think some of us are a little bit cautious
based on maybe somewhat of a lack of enthusiasm ct~ how our clock tower
turned out. But I do like 3elf's concept. I think that's'what I heard
from all the rest of the Commissioners up here also.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 23
Barry Warner: Mr. Chair, might it be appropriate that we would take Jeff's
concept and come back with an illustrative site plan and a series of
illustrations...of that. We'll try to take that basic premise and expand
on it. From a dimensional standpoint make sure that it's...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Horn: ...meets your needs as well. Would you be open to that Jeff?
Jeff Farmakes: I'll volunteer. I'll be happy to serve on whatever.
Horn: I think that's a good-idea. Jeff obviously has a better taste for
these things than any of us do. $o I think that's a good suggestion.
Jeff Farmakes: One thing that I want to make sure that you know, that type
of approach is far more subtler than,, because this isn't shown to scale up
here. These are much more monumental approaches. Just so you know that.
Barry Warner: Well one of the things that we try to do in coming back to
you is preserve the future such that if at some point in the future the
City decided that a vertical monument was appropriate, that we had
allocated space for that so that you could revisit, it at some future time
if something new showed up on the horizon you felt appropriate with. And
we take that into consideration so that we didn't pin ourselves into a
corner and we couldn't back out of it.
Horn: In my mind the best vertical monument you can get is a tree.
Jeff Farmakes: And this is a more subtle approach.. It's not going to
have, like I said, you're going to' see the tree, depending on which angle
you're at. The trees behind it. $o bear in mind that's obviously, you
double that...that's 14 feet or 12 feet. It's not going to be 35 feet.
Horn: Okay. I think we have a consensus and we agree Ne need to move
forward on this and get this done. I like what we saw.
¢ONS~DE8 APPRO¥~ OF THE H~ F~%CILITY PU~SE ~%G~EEMENT.
Ashworth: The HRA had actualiy approved this back in February and as we
moved through the process, actually obtaining an Abstract, there were two
areas that came out that I felt very uncomfortable with that I did not feel
had been relayed by myself to the HRA and it was because I didn't have
knowledge of it. That was, if there was an option in the Brown lease
providing him the option to purchase that portion of the building that he
was basically, currently leasing. It'd be after a $ year period of time.
That type of a condition in there, that type of agreement in my own mind
severely restricted our long term ability to control that propertyl And
accordingly, the last several months have been spent, in terms of
negotiating with Mr. Brown, or basically informing Brad that I did not see
that this could move forward if that stayed in place. Brad has negotiated
with Mr. grown and at this point in time Mr. grown is in agreement that he
would release his option to purchase. The second thing that really came
out in the review was that for both Mr. grown and, I forget the other party
in there.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 24
.Horn: Toll.
Ashworth: Toll, did have a long term lease agreement. 20 years. That's
not necessarily bad. I mean that kind of guarantees revenue streams and
can assure you that the property will continue to make money for you.
However, that's a position that in my own mind was different from what had
been originally presented to you, the HRA. If the HRA believes that you
want to do something with that property ~ithin the next 3 years, $ years,
10 years, then we should not go ahead with the agreement to purchase. If
on the other side, the primary goal is to be able to control what occurs at
that property, and again the property is extensive. It's got a lot of
frontage on TH 5. There's a strong possibility that as an absentee land
owner, and I'm not talking about Mr. Curd. I'm talking about potentially
some other purchaser coming in. You can be assured that that individual is
going to want to use the primary assets that they have which is the highway
itself for advertising. And I mean you're going to have a Winnebago repair
sales. They're going to line the entire highway with Winnebago's or
tractors or whatever it happens to be. $o if the primary objective is
basically to control the property. To landscape it in conformance with
what you want to ensure that what you see along the highway is what you
want, and you're not anticipating knocking the building down within some
period of time, then you should approve the agreement as presented. -'The
actual purchase price is dropped from what'you'd previously seen which was
at I think $837,000.00 to about $725,000.(>0. Mr. Johnson is present. He's
aware of the fact that, well again I congratulate him for getting Mr. Brown
to give up on his option to purchase. Again, if you approved-it, it would
be subject to again Mr. Brown executing that document. He is also aware of
the fact that I felt the necessity to ensure that HRA members knew that the
last time it ~as presented, we had not discussed this long term, these long
term leases. I think Todd, you were mentioning. Anyway, if we end up
having to buy our way out of those leases because we decide Ne want to
knock the building down in a 10 year period of time, it could be ver~
expensive. It could be quite costly to us.
Horn: I don't think that's ever really been in our plan.
Ashworth: I don't think so but I wanted to make sure that you knew that
they were there.
Horn: Any comments or questions? I think we're in a much better position
than we were before. I think this is really ~ood news. Get this thing
moving along as we have. Any other comments or?
Chmiel: Just a quick question that I had. If someone were to come in and
acquire that property, even other than ourselves, are'leases honored from
one point to the other person?
Brad Johnson: Yeah.
Chmiel: Upon purchase of that property?
Brad Johnson: Yes.
Chmiel: Why?
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 25
Brad Johnson: When we sell property it's like a deed.
Robbins: It's law.
Brad Johnson: When I originally brought this in, I Spent 4 years getting'
long term leases.
Chmiel: Let me ask another part of that question. What if that property
owner wanted to do something other than that and wanted to do some
expansions of their own to put their own business in? That's the reason
why they'.re purchasing that building.
Brad Johnson: Well that particular building has 18,000 square feet and
7,000 of it has long term leases and the balance have short term leases.
We've been trying to set it up that way. The banks and everything from a
financing point of view require long term leases because they want to make
sure there's financing. You know there's s.omebody in the building. Just
the reverse of what we're trying, so you've got a catch-22 kind of
situation. Just like you would have to, you'd have to buy out the lease.
These leases renew every 5 or 10 years. It's not as if they go on for,
people's lives do change. People get divorced so whether anybody will be
there 20 years or not, you're not sure. I think when I presented, I was
going to say this. When we presented this, we were glad we had the leases
because we felt from a financial risk point of view for the city, we had
limited it. And the reason we were presenting it to the city is one, if
you wanted to use it for a city purpose in the future, you have about
10,000 square feet there that you could use you know. If you wanted to do
some boat repairs or something like that. Number two, what was number two?
Oh, we really presented it because' I felt that, especially remember the
Highway $ corridor came later, is that I was at wits end trying to
accomplish some of the things you guys wanted to accomplish and the people
upstairs. Because it was going to cost another $80,000.00-$90,000.00 to
accomplish, at a minimum, what you'd like to see happen to that building.
And the way the financing is set up, you can't get the money for it. It
just turns out, the owner here is getting a very good return if you look at
it. He's up around 20~. 20-25~ retur'n in equity which is what you're
going to get and that's not bad in a 3~ and 6~ interest market. But he
needs some cash like everybody that owns real estate does and can't put
anything more in there and we can't find any financing. $o he says yeah,
if you can get me what I have in it, which is about what we're talking
about, that would solve his problem and then we'd turn around, or the city
and fix it up you know and do the landscaping.. We've got a plan that they
like upstairs. We don't have a signed plan yet which we have to work
through with you. And it probably looks like a nice building. It'd
probably disappear you know. But the problem, and that's why I did it.
And later on, if you want to sell it some other time, it's fixed. You
don't have to hang onto it. It's a very good building. It's on~ of the
best building, and probably the best cashflow, from my point of view, in
the whole town. Other than the new medical building.
Chmiel: How many years of that 20 year lease are done now?
Brad Johnson: Three. And the 15th year of this mortgage, the building's
paid for. The first S years you're paying off $100,000.00 worth of
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 26
mortgage. I mean it's not a bad financial deal.
Horn: Charlie, you had a question?
Robbins: I guess just what Don's statement is. Do you demolish or' do
within 3 to 5 years. I'm not sure we can answer that. You know today.
don't know that answer. I don't know whether I'm going to make it home
tonight let alone 3 to 5 years what we want to do with a building. So the
point is that, let's say if we're going to do it within 3 to 5 years, we
should not, or if we do it within 10, we should. Whatever. !'m not sure,
we don't know that today.
Brad Johnson: Well, it'd probably be cheaper~ if you're going to demolish
it, it's still cheaper to buy it today.
Robbins: So that's one statement. And the other is, is it'really the
intent of the HRA to be a landlord? Because I think I mentioned this to
Todd too. And Brad, you're aware of this. True, we've got leases and true
we've got cash. True we've got everything coming in but does, it cashflows
but what is the net receipts after the year? I mean do we make a lot of
money? It is short money? Is it small money or is it.
Brad 3ohnson: I think they presented that.
Robbins: What is the money?
Brad 3ohnson: It'd be about $25,000.00 cashflow plus initially $10,000.00
principle payment so you're $35,000.00 on it.
Robbins: $o we basically net us, the landlord basically nets out
$25,000.00 a year?
Brad 3ohnson: Yeah. Plus the payment on the principle on the loan. And
currently you're investing at about 8~. I mean you've got to remember the
City is investing money all the time and this'is a much higher yield t~an
you're doing right now. And you could turn around and sell it if you
didn't want to be a landlord p~obably at a profit or two, but you'll have
accomplish the other goal which is what really I came here about was to try
to fix up the outside because it ain't going to happen in the next 3 or 4,
5 years.
Horn: My answer to your question is no, we don't wa~t to'be landlords and
as soon as the plan we see is in place, we'll get out of the landlord
business. We're only being a temporary landlord to...
Robbins: I Just bring that up is all.
Brad 3ohnson: Yeah. I think you could Sell this building in a normal real
estate market, very quickly. Okay? If you wanted to.
Chmiel: I wouldn't mind being a landlord 'if' we could get this in our
general fund of the city.
Brad 3ohnson: That's what we're trying to do.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 27
Ashworth: Those dollars would go there.
Brad Johnson: That's where they go. That'is what we're trying. That's the
other subtly of this whole thing.
Workman: They have to don't they?
Ashworth: No.
Chmiel: Not necessarily but you can put them in..
Horn: Nell you know, it's an interesting concept because the traditi.onal
ways that cities have had to make money in the past are just not there
anymore. You almost have to get creative in getting ways to generate
money. You know obviously we have the obvious way of raising taxes, which
is not terribly creative. But if you can get into some of these other
things that supplement the city funds, it's going to benefit everybody. I
don't know that this is the right thing to do but obviously if the payback
is better than we're getting on some of these bonds and things, it seems to
make sense.
Chmiel: Some maybe. Some maybe not.
Ashworth: Well the other thing is, we have reached agreement now with Taco
and so that will not go into court. And he has agreed to move into the
Market Square property. The status of the Red-E-Mix facility, I think that
that probably will go into court. But.the bottom line is, the city, HRA
will have a lot of property ownership to the east of this facility. 500 to -
600 feet, some of which being fairly wide. And the only way you can get
there is literally through this particular parcel. I'm just convinced in
my own mind that if we did not approve this today, sometime within the next
5 years, you would be condemning that property and it probably would be
from an absentee owner who was not as friendly as the current seller. I
mean Mr. Curd is trying to get out of the property with some semblance of
the original dollars he put into it. I think if you put a Mr. Labollo in
there and maybe you can come up with some other names. That they're not
going to look at that in a similar fashion. In fact, they may very well
look at it. I think I should go ahead and purchase that Property because I
know at some point in time the HRA or City is going to need to purchase it
and at that point in time, they'll have you over the barrel and I think
we've been there a couple of times.- I really'think you should do it.
Workman: I move approval.
Horn: Is there a seco nd?
Bohn: Second.
Horn: Further discussion?
Workman moved, Bohn seconded that the Housing and. Redevelopment 'Authority
approve the Purchase agreement for the Hanus Property as proposed. ~11
voted in favor and the motion carried.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 28
NORTH H~[GHWAY 5 FRONTAGE ROAD CONSTRUCTION. CCKJNTY ROAD ~.7 TO HI6Fa4RY 41.
JOINT POWERS A?aREEMENT WITH STATE OF MINNESOTA.
Ashworth: I told Todd that, at the beginning of last week I said boy, this
is turning into the Don Ashworth show for this next HRA meeting. We've had
a number of real big items this evening and !'ye been very happy with the
actions taken through the first part of the agenda and I'm anticipating, or
I'm hoping that this goes well as well. We've had additional meetings with'
the Highway Department in regards to the north frontage road construction
project. And I have been quite surprised at really their openness. I mean
they have literally said, well let's do this. To actually get it done, and
so it would become a part of the main line construction. So when Highway 5
would be built, the north frontage road concept will also be built. What
they are asking for is for us to put together a letter that would outline
what each, what would be the responsibilities of each of the two parties.
We're making a big commitment tonight because if you authorize that letter
to be sent in to them and then they turn around sending back a letter
saying alright, we'll agree to those points. We'll PUt that into a fdrm of
an agreement for your signature. Well, it's ~oing to be hard to turn back
at that point in time. They are buying into the expanded green area which
means a lO0 to 200 foot, 200 to 300 foot distance back from Highway. $ that
would Just be natural. They agreed to the additional plantings in that
area. They recognize that at areas such as at 117, that the frontage road
would actually swing further to the north to ensure stacking distances and
so you'd literally be purchasing like almost all of the mings Golf Course.
They would build the frontage road itself and pay for that as a part of the
Ice Tea dollars. They would carry out the acquisitions for the property
all the way through there. They would carry out the inspections and the
engineering associated with the project. They are very fearful of going
through the Lake Ann property. And it recognizes the funds...standards but
anytime that you become involved with taking of lands that have previously
been acquired using LAWCON or federal recreational dolla-rs, you're going
through a real nightmare in terms of trying to get sign offs from every
agency agreeing to whatever it is that you're proposing to do. They would
propose construction of that north frontage road project from Audubon out
to TH 41, and actually would be willing to carry that further east up to
the Lake Ann property. But they would seek our agreement that, well I mean
that would really be it. They would hope that the City would carry it
from, and I think we have to, from the west side of Lake Ann back over to
17.
Horn: East side.
Ashworth: The west side of Lake Ann Park back east to 17. And again it
just simply recognizes the federal regulations and standards that you'd
have to go through. They're convinced that if we would look to having them
construct through the park area, that the. environmental assessment
worksheet that was previously completed on the main line roadway itself,
would have to be modified to include this and it would actually delay the
main line construction of Highway 5. We assured them that'we do not want
to stop the main line construction of Highway $.
Horn: Don't give them any excuses to stop anythi'ng.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
3uly 23, 1992 - Page 29
Ashworth: I initially felt that we really had a strong support in terms of
the bridge concept and 8ill Crawford was one who kind of bought into that.
8ut there again, they've got some rigid standards. Some of the things that
they're really concerned with is the decking that's associated with that.
Constant maintenance associated with that as Nell as the member,
structurally portion of the bridge itself and they're very worried in that
area. They've come back with a request for us to consider and that would
be a modification where they would install, they used to. go with these 12 x
12 foot culverts and that would then become kind of a pedestrian underpass.
Well 12 x 12 feet, especially if you get it' 50 or 100 feet long, there's no
way that you're going to go in one of those. 8ut they're looking to a
compromise and that is, a 34 foot arch with a 12 foot height. And I think
that that could be, I think that it could really look just like it were a
bridge and it'd actually carry a wall section across the front of it. And
for practical purposes, you would think that it is a bridge. You would not
realize that it's really behind what you see as this bridge construction in
front of you is in fact this arch so I don't think that that's bad of a
concession. They'd be in agreement to actually install 'that. There:s
actually a double installment because you do have a split highway so you're
talking about two bridges. In this case, two arches. Second one that,
well let's see. I made you aware of the fact of Lake Ann Park and the
bridge. Was there a third one that I think was a little 'different than
the, oh. This actually can work back to our favor in terms of monetary
input back from the city because they would actually put those dollars back
towards what I'll call the local share and that is our agreement that Park
Orive would become a restricted right-in/right-out. 'That they would not
have to look to signalizing that particular intersection. I think that
that's good for the community. I mean the fewer signals that you can get
by with, the better and that's one instance where it wouldn't be 'needed if
the north frontage road concept is in fact in place. Where people to the
west traveling eastbound would get off at Audubon onto the north frontage
road and come into the park. And in a similar fashion, they'd have the
choice of going back out that same way or taking the free right and going
back west. Similarly, if people from the community who were on the highway
or maybe even on the other side of the highway, traveling west on 'Highway 5
would have a free right into. the park property. Whereas on the way home,
they would take the north frontage road through the Eckankar property back
to 17 and then to whatever point. Whether it be south of the community or
back into the main portion of town.
Bohn: Wasn't that originally when that was proposed, that was supposed to
be shut off? Park Drive.
Horn: There was concern.
Ashworth: I remember that Commissioner Horn was on the City Council at
that point in time. There was a lot of discussion as to the desireability
of that signal and it was more or less presented as though it has to be' in
there because there is no other option and my recollection is at that point
in time, you were fairly opposed to seeing that signal going in.
Horn: You mean that turn?
Ashworth: Well a signal at Park Drive.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 30
Horn: Right.
Ashworth: Having it as a full interchange and therefore full signal.
Horn: I objected to having a road come out to the Highway 5 and what we
had actually talked about was at the time that 17 got signalized, that that
might be closed off because it does interrupt the flow.
Ashworth: But without like a north frontage road concept, you don't have
any alternatives.
Horn: Right.
Ashworth: I'm very pleased with it but again it does represent, if you
authorize staff to prepare a letter back to the State that would represent
that here is Chanhassen's commitment to, not only the roadway but the north
frontage road and that they agree to enter into an agreement that would
incorporate these points. I think they'll approve it. It will become then
just part of the project. We don't really need to look.to anything more.
.It's a done deal.
Horn: Well that's great. I think you know we:ye honestly, we're very
sensitive to traffic movement here because we've suffered in having under
rated roads for all these years. And now it's becoming especially Pressing
with all the construction going on. So I"thtnk we have to be, we're in the
prime position to be leaders in having a traffic pattern that works because
we've been on the other end of the stick for so many years.
Workman: You know Don, to the west of Lake Ann Park there, the red house,
isn't that a Kerber in there?
Chmiel: Yep.
Workman: And this road would pretty much be going through their.
Ashworth: Their house. Leander I believe.
Workman: Are we notifying them? Are they aware? I've talked to her
before and boy, they don't feel too safe getting mt on Highway $ at that
intersection believe me. So maybe they're thinking that they'd like to
move anyway but maybe those are some people, if there's some people and
some carcasses that are going to be left along the way, we should maybe be
giving them advance notice.'
Ashworth: I do not know about Leander. I do know that the owners of, I'm
not quite sure why the City didn't provide like a life estate for the
elderly woman that owned what was the Lake Ann Farm. There was a little
exception that was-left right adjacent to the highway which is where the
existing residential house is. But under this agreement, the State would
agree to purchase that and turn that property back over to the city. And
that particular owner favors it and has written and asked.
Workman: Yeah, I remember that discussion.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 31
Ashworth:
Wot kma n:
Chmiel:
Wot kman:
Chmiel:
But I do not know about Leander.
Is that Leander, the red house?
Yeah,
! thought it was a Kerber.
It is. Leander Kerber.
Horn: That's got to be the worst place in the world to get out on the
highway because you're just past the stop sign when people are up to full
speed.
Ashworth: The sad part is is that farmhouse, they run a daycare facility
out of there. I can't believe sending your children into the house there.
It's got to be dangerous.
Chmiel: Have we contacted those property owners on that no~th side
informing them as to the positions that we're taking with considerations ol
that north service. Excuse me. We're not calling it a service road.
We're calling it a boulevard.
Ashwo~th: Arboretum Boulevard. So yoU 'Te- asking that staff do that? Is
that what you're saying?
Hot n: Yes.
Chmiel: Making them aware.
Workman: If we approve this, we'~e not ~eally bound to anything?
Ashworth: No, but I think that we would be embarrassed if the State sent
back a lette~ along with an agreement with all of these same points in
there and then we said, well.
Horn: Changed our mi nd.
Ashworth: We've changed our minds.
Workman: Well that can happen but it might have been appropriate' fo~ us to
maybe let them know so they could have been here.
AshwoTth: Maybe before we put this back out, maybe I should go .ahead with
the letters to those owners.
Chmiel: ! think we should. At least making them aware.
AshwoTth: See if we heat anything within, if I basically don't heat
anything within 2 weeks.
Horn: OT personally try to contact them.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 23, 1992 - Page 32
Ashworth: That was kind of one of my questions. Ne 'know Leander and Mr.
Grabrielson but for the most part, and Hr. Pryzmus. A lot of those are
absentee owners. There's subsequent purchase agreements with like what
I'll call a major developer.
Horn: Well see I'd be more concerned about the home owners.
Chmiel: That's my concern. What's in and adjacent to what's there.right
now. I think the vacant land that's there, I'm not too concerned about.
Horn: It's one thing in a business situation but it could be more
upsetting if your home is being moved out from under you.
Ashworth: So what about like Mr. Gorra? He lives back 2000 feet.
Chmiel: He should be notified as well.
Horn: He should be notified but I mean he's not going to .be effected like,
I mean he's not going to lose his house over it.
Chmiel: Give him a safer access into his property.
Norkman: I mean are we officially mapping? I mean we're not really
officially mapping here. We're kind of' laying a concept out. Ne're not
really binding anything. Ne didn't need to have a public hearing. I would
think Mr. Gorra would find this an enhancement to his property. Mr.
Gab~ielson, probably not. Leander, probably great you know.
(The taping of the meeting ended at this point in the discussion.)
Workman moved, Robbins ~econded that the Housing and Redevelopment
Authority authorize staff to place each of the detailed potnt~ pre~ent..ed in
the Barton Aschman letter of July 14th in a letter to MnDot as commitments
of the HRA/Ctty if they would agree to those same-conditions, and would
include the north f~ontage road construction in the main ltne Htgh~ay 5
construction project, and to notify the residents llving in that corridor.
All voted in favor and the motion cazried.
APPROVRL OF BILLS:
Workman moved, Chmtel seconded to approve the Bills dated 6-22-92~ All
voted in favor and the motion ca,tied.
Workman moved, Chmiel seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favo~
and the motion ca~rted. The meeting Has adjourned.
Submitted by Don Ashworth
Executive Director
P~epaTed by Nann Opheim