1991 07 18HOUSING AND REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY
REGULAR MEETING
JULY 18, 1991
Vice Chairman Bohn called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m..
MEMBERS PRESENT: Don chmiei, Tom Workman, Charlie Robbins and Jim Bohn
MEMBERS ASSENT: Clark Horn
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Executive Director; Todd Gerhardt, Asst.
Executive Director, and Paul Krauss, Planning Director
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Workman moved, Robbins seconded to approve the
Minutes of the Housing and Redevelopment Authority meeting dated May 23,
1991 as presented. Ail voted in favor and the motion carried.
CONSIDER APPROVAL OF THE REDEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT FOR MARKET SQUARE.
Ashworth: The HRA did receive a copy of the draft from the attorneys.
Unfortunately we received that last Thursday...in time to get it back out
to the Commission. In reading through that we found that there were
approximately 4 errors that had occurred in drafting that document by the
attorney's office. I don't think that any of them are, well they're major
to the developer and they may be major to the City if they would stay that
way. They are nothing new though. The problem we've had is getting into
writing really what you had approved from 3-4 weeks ago. One, you don't
really have reasonable security associated with the loan. The $180,000.00
that's the purchase of the particular lot. The sale back to the developer.
That needs to be firmed up. We need to assure that the developer will in
fact repurchase that within a 3 year period of time. If not, that there
needs to be an incentive mechanism basically to insure that they do that.
That's not currently in there. The subsidy amount as it is dealt over with
the grocery store itself actually was in error. The amounts that were
shown in your packet were correct. They reflected the higher 32,000 square
foot store. The original agreement talked to a 22,000 square foot store
and accordingly that section was not changed from, that section was left as
it was in agreements i thru 17 and somewhere between 18 and 19 did not get
changed.
· Workman: Do you know what page that's on Don?
Ashworth: The amount is on.
Chmiel: 10 and il...
Ashworth: 10 and 11 represent basically the two sheets with the greatest
number of problems on them. And again the 700 should show the 840. If you
look back in the packet what was presented a month ago, that higher amount
was in there. The $180,000.00 that I referred to is on a Section 3.6(b).
That needs to be firmed up. Right now the take out provision is not really
what we had looked to. We're anticipating that we will be taken out of the
shopping center in a similar point in time as the developers. As it's
currently written, they can give us an option or tell us to basically that
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
3uly 18, 1991 - Page 7
Gerhardt: I asked an architect this week how much it would cost to pitch
the roof up on this building and he said you could put two roofs on this
building for what it would cost to pitch it and you get 40 years of life
out of life of a flat roof. 20 years out of the life of a flat roof.
Workman: Well, if we're going to do that, it doesn't need to be a part of
this agreement right?
Gerhardt: No. It's something that we still have some time and I can get
it on as soon as Todd gets that information. I'll bring a special meeting
in and he can give you a presentation.
8ohn: In other words, this agreement doesn't affect that?
Gerhardt: No.
Chmiel: No. This is just purely the contract or finances as to the cost
and how it's going to be achieved.
Gerhardt: Because I think if you're looking at some facade stuff, the
developers, they can probably absorb a $40,000.00 to $50,000.00 cost but
anything up and above that I think is you're asking too much.
Robbins: The upkeep is going to be less on a pitched roof than a flat.
Heating costs cheaper.
Workman: Well I'd more approval. P$.ggy back on Charlie's. Approval of
this with the four changes noted. Approval of the contract giving Chairman
and the Executive Director, unless an HRA member finds a problem with the
updated draft. I do have my own scribbled notes. They're hardly legal.
RobbinG: I would move to that motion.
Bohn: Second.
Workman moved, Robbing seconded to approve the Redevelopment Agreement for
Market Square with the four changes noted and giving the Chairman of the
HRA and the Executive Director authority to sign the agreement unless an
HRA member finds a problem with the updated draft. All voted in favor and
the motion carried.
Gerhardt: Vice Chairman Bohn, 3ohn Hennessy might want to comment on this
development. He had asked some questions of me yesterday I think.
Bohn: Sure.
3ohn Hennessy: ...this commission is a matter of public trust as much as
the City Council or Planning Commission or any other. I talked to some
other business people in town too and it concerns me from the fact that the
HRA may have several monies available for whatever projects at whatever
costs. I have no idea what those funds are. I don't believe any of you
gentlemen on the Commission are bankers are you?
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 199l - Page 2
they're going to buy us out. It should really be reversed. We should have
that option and we make the determination as to whether or not we want to
stay and potentially gain through literally increasing value associated
with the project itself. In other respects the agreement is really
correct. I'm hoping that I can send you the new copy within one week and
I'll highlight those four changed areas. If they in any way appear
different than what you recall from a month ago or what I said here this
evening, then I would suggest that you contact me and we would call for a
meeting where we could discuss it. Otherwise, since we've really gone
through 19 drafts, I'm hoping when you look at this next one you're going
to say yeah, that firms up that $150,000.00 purchase resale section and
literally authorize the Chairman and myself to sign it.
Robbins: So you're saying that we should make a motion subject to the
correction of the documents then?
Ashworth: Those four sections.
Robbins: The four sections that were saved.
Ashworth: Giving those to you so you can verify that those have been made
and that they conform to what it is that I've said here tonight. If they
in any way differ, if you think that they differ. Any member thinks that
they differ, then call a special meeting to discuss those. Otherwise if I
hear nothing, your motion would literally authorize the Chairman and myself
to approve it.
Robbins: Well I would move.
Chmiel: Discussion yet.
Workman: I guess I would feel comfortable in doing that if I knew
specifically in here which those were. Page. If I can have that. What's
the problem and what the change is. If we could just take about 3 minutes.
Ashworth: Okay. Pages 10 and 11. The Section 3.6. The last sentence.
Lot 1 shall be 840 versus the current 700. The current 700 is based on a
write down of the lease for a 22,000 square foot store. And the developer
makes no additional money off of this change. It does assure though that
the subsidy level versus square foot for the grocery store is consistent
with the change from 22,000 square feet to 32,000.
Chmiel: Now does that also entail the additional, is there any language
that's offered in here with the additional expansion? If they so choose
to go to the.
Ashworth: The expansion lot is shown on the development plan and so the
area is basically being reserved by the developer. It's my understanding
that the agreement between the developer and the grocery sets aside that
area specifically for the grocery store.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 3
Clayton 3ohnson: Part of their lease really anticipates that that plan
sits there idle for that future expansion. You could really say in a
way...that's part of the reason. We have to let that plan set idle for the
entire term of the lease.
Workman: On page 3 it does mention on the very last sentence it mentions
approximately 35,000 square feet.
Chmiel: Yeah. We're at 32,000 right now.
Ashworth: Then the best we can do is go down to Section 3.6(b) and
starting in the last sentence there where it says reconveyance of Lot 3
from the Authority shall be $180,000.00. You would just make an x by that
line because there will be additional wordage added that will, if the
reconveyance has not occurred within a 3 year-period of time, the loan
would be increased by that $180,000.00 amount and literally the title
given.
Workman: To them.
Ashworth: Yes. Correct. My fear is Lot 3, we had originally started with
the Outlot A and then we moved to another lot. This was as security for
this loan and it also recognized that there was more land in the project
than what was needed for the initial phase. So we're literally holding
that land. Driving down the net cost associated with the overall project
with the idea that they definitely wanted that piece back. Well Outlot A
was of a size that would make it very worthwhile for them to want to do it.
It was 200,000 square feet or 400,000 square feet so you're talking about
50 cents or a dollar a square foot. Lot 3 is relatively small and there's
a disadvantage. In other words, when you start getting up to $10.00-$15.00
a square foot, there's not an incentive for them to either market it or to
want to repurchase and there's a potential that it could be sold over to a
third party. Brown's or Brown's Shoes and all of a sudden we're back in
here trying to deal with Brown's Shoes. Why they should pay $180,000.00
for a relatively small lot. So the idea here is to insure that it's
continued to be reflected as an amount as a part of the overall project and
that the prime developers recognize that position. Okay? So again, that
~entence will change. The 5 and 10 rule Section. That was in Section
3.5(b). So page 10. Section 3.5(b)(0). And about all you can do again is
just highlight that whole section and if you wanted to put a note in the
column. It's going to be to the effect that the HRA has certain options in
here as to whether or not we wanted to continue versus whether they're
telling us that they're selling us out. Or buying us out okay? So that
puts the option back to us. The other section, I mentioned there were four
of them. This kind of gets into a technical one but under Section
3.5(b)(a)(i). That whole section. One of the things I talked about was
that as an HRA we make investments in a lot of things. Treasury Bills.
With the idle monies that you have. Excess increments at any one point in
time. We try to do as best of a job as we can for you in terms of those
investments but what we're literally doing as a part of the project in
making this loan is an investment. We're guaranteeing ourselves certain
rights as far as when we want to buy out. The original presentation of
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 4
that was done on the basis that our position is ~ind of a second in here
would be under the same guidelines as that of a first mortgage.
Specifically 30 year note that would balloon after 3, 5 or l0 year period
of time. As it stands right now, they're showing that entire $60,000.00 as
an interest payment on the outstanding balance. That would not be in
keeping with this 30 year amortization issue. The Attorneys are having
some problems in terms of legally can we keep it as a pure note or can we
treat ourself under this amortized basis again the same as the first
mortgage? About all I can tell you is that Section 6(a)(i) will change to
reflect the final decision that Holmes and Graven makes regarding whether
or not that is going to be looked at as a 100~ investment or is it an
amortized loan. The amounts will not significantly change. That's really
it.
Workman: What does that de for us if it's a 100~ investment or an
amortized loan? You had difficulty explaining it.
Ashworth: The developers need to be in part of that discussion because all
of this is driven by cashflow associated with the pro3ect. The overall
amount back to us won't change significantly as with your home mortage
during the first 5 or 10 year period of time. You don't really drive down
the principle that much. Especially on a 30 year note. So the amount of
the outstanding balance, principle balance at a 5 or 10 year period is
basically the same as it was when you started. It isn't really under after
you past that 10th year that you start to drive down that principle amount.
More so than the sum is the legal question as to which of the two this can
be reflected as. I mean basically we're treading on some newer ground
here. I guess the attorneys are kind of wanting to insure that whatever is
done is correct.
Workman: Thanks.
Bohn: How does this agreement affect the architectural review?
Ashworth: I know of no sections in there that.deal with architectural
review. I know that at times you have agreed to special assessment
reductions. It's talking about with other types of businesses.. That
you've looked at that particular site plan at that point in time but this
was a planned unit development and it was brought in. That's been one of
the problems that developer has had. The only thing he's been able to put
onto that site is exactly what he showed the Planning Commission and
exactly what he showed the City Council and so you're aware of the fact
that they've been negotiating for a bank in the front part of that
property. That's been a real concern to the developer because the only way
the bank can go is if the overall development goes. If the overall
development goes, then it's fine. But if it doesn't, then he's got to
start all over again. He would have had to go back all the way back
through the Planning Commission process and City Council process and he
hasn't wanted to do that. It would mean literally throwing away 3 years
worth of work. But the HRA's looked at that and talked about when he
brought in his plans from before. He needs to bring those back in again by
the way because it's been more than 1 year since those were initially
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 5
approved. If you would like, I could have those brought back to the HRA at
that point in time.
Bohn: Is that going to have a flat roof?
Ashworth: Clayton, would you like to respond?
Clayton 3ohnson: I really don't know that much about that part of the
development.
Chmiel: Well wasn't that a part of the review, approval given? What was
existing? Not so much as the square footage but the art deco review?
Krauss: Well yes, certainly it was. The roof line was modified somewhat
in the last stage here and there was additional detailing added. I
remember Councilman Workman was real involved in some of the questions that
led to some of that. Since that time there's been additional questions.
Recently about peaking the roof more because basically it's a flat roof
with some detailing on it.
Clayton Johnson: Well they're not as, actually it gives the appearance.
Robbins: From the front but from the back it doesn't. Ali you did was
raise the parapets didn't you?
Krauss: From the rear it's relatively plain. The rear elevation is the
bottom two on that. Todd and I met with the Todd Kristoferson of Amcon and
their architect to see what would be involved. What kind of creativity
could be added there and to come up with some ideas for cost but we were,
do you know when we're going to hear back from them. on that?
Gerhardt: We met with them I think it was last Thursday and Todd's
comments back to me were that he should have some type of renderings or
ideas and concepts some time next week. I was hoping to get it on for
tonight's meeting. I think this falls back to the TH $ corridor meeting
and the HRA/Planning Commission/Council rode up and down TH 5 and they
stopped up on top of the viaduct and looked down onto what would be the
Market Square site. And were somewhat concerned on the views looking down
on top of that building and some of the questions brought up at that time,
is there any way that we can either peak it or give it some type of other
image to hide some of those HVA systems and to get rid of that flat roof
section.
Robbins: A 5 foot parapet from the back, from the highway isn't going to
cover anything. In fact I don't even know if they were going to put 5 foot
parapets in the back.
Gerhardt: But I know that Todd is working on some concepts and he was
going to give us some illustrations. They have a computer system that they
can give you illustrations of certain levels so I can give them the
contours of the TH 5 bridge and they can put that into the computer and
they will give you a visual image of that building as looking down from
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 6
TH 5. You'll see...what's there. Again, until he comes back with some of
those drawings, I can't say anything more.
Workman: We have another shot at that don't we? If we're going to make
them do anything to the roof, maybe we don't have another shot at it but if
we're going to make them do anything to the roof, the HF~A's going to buy
it.
Gerhardt: Right now if you're thinking about wanting them to put a pitched
roof on that system, you're talking a lot of money.
Workman: How much?
Gerhardt: I don't know.
Workman: How much?
Gerhardt: Todd's putting those monies together. He's doing a cost
analysis so he's doing quite a report. We've asked him to put some figures
together. So he can tell you how much it will cost to pitch it. How much
to put the half roof section on.
Workman: I heard the number $40,000.00. That sounded like a bargain.
Somebody was throwing $40,000.00 around.
Clayton 3ohnson: I think there are two issues. First of all on the small
tenant space where you have 60 foot bays, probably very doable. You're
looking at something like what's across the street. But now imagine a
Rainbow. Okay? 35,000 foot store. How high is that roof going to be. I
don't know.
Bohn: There's one north of Atlanta, George. Shopping center that's got a
store almost as big, it's got a K-Mart in it.
Workman: Yeah but what does it cost?
8chh: I don't know. It's a beautiful looking shopping center.
Gerhardt: If you want to see this building with pitched roofs, you're
talking over $100,000.00. At least. I mean that's the minimum.
Chmiel: I think you're low.
Gerhardt: A lot low.
Workman: When you get into the 35,000 square foot, how do you put a
pitched roof on that?
Chmiel: It can be done.
Workman: Well I mean it could be done but it will be higher than
St. Hubert's church.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 8
Robb i ns: Yes.
John Hennessy: Are you a banker Charlie?
Robbing: Yes.
John Hennessy: Would this project float at your bank?
Robbing: What do you mean would it float?
John Hennessy: If they came to you with the project today and said we need
this financing, would your bank finance this project?
Robbing: I've not seen the loan package. I couldn't give you an answer.
3ohn Hennessy: Yet you're looking to going into a center which probably
doesn't meet the specs that banks have been turning down for 3 years. There
isn't a bank that's taking this project or ground would have been broken at
this time. There is a glut of office, of retail space Tight now. The
center that I'm in over on West 7$th Street, there's always at least one
space available. The center's never been completely full and that's a nice
access center. It's right in the middle of town. It's main and main as
you can get and it just seems like a project that's destined for, I hate to
say bankruptcy but it doesn't look like it's a high success project. A
grocery store would be nice but people in town seem to still be eating and
whether they're going to Rainbow or Driskills or Cub, they're managing
right now. With the glut of spaces. The center over at TH 7 and TH 41 is
a prime example. They don't have 50~ occupancy over there and it's been
that way for over a year now. I looked into moving into this, to leasing
at Market Square over a year and a half ago. I guess I'm glad I didn't
wait but at the time they were asking very unrealistic rents and we go in
with a package when we negotiate leases which is very attractive to a
landlord. When you're looking_at signing a 5 year lease or a l0 year lease
with two 5 year renewals with a concept that brings business into a center,
with an excellent track record. We're one of the top 30 for our type of
businesses in the Trade Magazine of landlords and landlords agents receive.
We're a desireable tenant and we weren't able to negotiate anything that
was realistic. And if I can't, I don't know what a mom and pop
organization, whether it's a pet store or tanning beds or any other 1,200-
1,300 square foot bay user's going to get. I'm just concerned with this
whole project. I'm not afraid of competition. I welcome it. I think ih
my business it's not a concern of mine at this point in time. Are their
signed leases or basically letters of intent on this project right now?
A signed lease and a $1.99 will get you two slices of pizza.
Chmiel: Thick crust.
John Hennessy: Thick crust yeah. With sesame seeds.
Bohn: Would perhaps anybody in the audience want to comment on thts?
Gerhardt: How many signed leases do you have on Market Square?
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 9
Representative from Market Square: Certainly 86~.
3ohn Hennessy: 86~ signed leases?
Clayton Johnson: All of them are contingent on the Gateway lease being
signed.
3ohn Hennessy: So these are not just letters of intent?
Clayton 3ohnson: Oh no. Absolutely not. We wouldn't have gotten through
the midland stage with Lutheran Brotherhood if we didn't have them.
3chh Hennessy: But you don't have a bank that would be willing to take
this project on right now?
Clayton Johnson: Well if you wish I'd be happy to give an update on where
we're at with all of these issues.
3ohn Hennessy: I don't know if the HRA can spend money in some of these
other areas. A couple years ago we had a referendum on the trail system in
Chanhassen which would have been a wonderful project I think and within a
couple hundred votes would have happened. Can HRA money be spent on that?
Ashworth: It can be spent to the extent that it is within the district...
plan through that referendum process. The trails within the district were
proposed to be funded as a part of the district expense. If I could also
comment on some of 3ohn's point and that is that for many, many, many years
this community wanted to see an industrial tax base. Industrial park. It
never happened. The land sat there. One of the reasons that it didn't
happen was someone had to take a certain amount of risk. Each independent
owner couldn't...literally across and going up through your area. You have
a major storm sewer system. You have two new bridges within the business
park. You have a new county road. You have an entire water system. If we
would not have taken a certain amount of risk in going in and making those
improvements and making those lands available for development, we'd be
sitting back as we were 10-~5 years ago saying gee it'd sure be nice,if we
had a certain amount of industry within our community. Where 3Chh is
currently doing business out of, that would still be the gas station over
there. That was a total under utilization of that land and yet there was
not really a mechanism whereby that existing property owner could be paid a
fair return, building knocked down and something else...put back up there.
I mean the full cost of doing all those things would have been passed onto
you. There's no way that you'd be leasing that for $$.00-$9.00, whatever
per square foot. We're still carrying the special assessments that were
originally levied on that smaller shopping center. It's been through a lot
of the initiatives that the HRA has taken that those developments have
occurred. I guess I would strongly state that the bank probably would not
have been there had it not been for your actions. Many of the parcels, you
know talking about market driven, we lost 2 or 3 times in that grocery
store contest you might say and it wasn't until we really started getting
in and analyzing what was happening within the grocery store business and
how it was that we could truly bring a grocery store into Chanhassen that
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
3uly 18, 199~ - Page lO
we were finally successful in getting one. If again we were not willing to
take and go out and try to bring these people in, I don't really think that
it's just going to happen by itself. The other thing I wanted you to know
3ohn is, and you can come in and look'at that report. We employed Deloitte
to some extent you may say it was a wasted expenditure. We sent Deloitte
from here over to Michigan to go through the books of this new Festival
Foods to insure that we were not paying them one more Denny than would
absolutely be necessary so that two things would happen. One, the risk
associated with that grocery store truly would be back with them. They
were taking the major risk. Secondly, that the inducement that we were
providing to them was reasonable and without that, that it would be cheaper
for them to potentially look to build that store somewhere' else along TH 5,
Eden Prairie or wherever the case may be and they did make that statement
to the HRA.
John Hennessy: ...funding of our private industry where I'm not totally
convinced that we have the population base to warrant the entire project as
much as we do a grocery store. That would be the prime thing.
Chmiel: One of the things too 3ohn. It's not just the population base
from within the city of Chanhassen. They have taken a radius of the city
and incorporated that into it. We have a lot of concerns with them on
that.
3ohn Hennessy: I know there's demographics involved here Don and they're
probably similar to my own. I mean I draw from at least...in Eden Prairie.
Over in the Trumpy Home Addition and that...demographics are... I still
don't know that a center of this size is, the grocery store is going to be
a draw but that it's going to support the smaller tenants in that center.
Or are we going to have a merry-go-round space...
Chmiel: Well, there again as I see our city progressing in growth as well
and we're going to see that as we continue. I can't say we're not goin~ to
see that but at the same time I think it's going to be less than probably
what you're thinking. Much less because we're trying to focus the center
location for people to come to and I have had dozens upon dozens upon
dozens and I was just in Eden Prairie the other day. I had a couple tires
put on at Goodyear because that's the only place I can buy the tires or
else I could have gotten them in town. But in acquiring and getting those
tires on, I was standing there and a guy got out of a van and he said,
I remember you. You served me some beer up here on 3uly 4th here up in
Chanhassen. I said I live in Chanhassen. When is this grocery store
going to come in? He said my wife is absolutely disgusted that she has to
go as far as she has to go to get her groceries. He is not the only one
that's expressed that. I've talked to people all over town and everybody.
3ohn Hennessy: They all moved to town knowing there wasn't a grocery
store.
Chmiel: Sure. But they knew this town was going to grow and it was going
to have one. We wanted to focus this as part of community to have that
store downtown.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 11
John Hennessy: I've lived my entire life in Excelsior/Chanhassen. I knew
that it was going to grown when I bought my home in 1982. Nobody, youself
included, expected that we'd go from 6,300 people in 1982 to 12,000 in
1990...
Chmiel: I thought we would. I really did. I've watched Eden Prairie go
through the same process. I really have. For the past 22 years. And
I know from what's happening in town by the total amount of electrical load
growth as opposed to our system wide, company system wide area, where load
growth is basically about 2~ we're here in the City of Chanhasse at 19~ and
it's constant and that's been for the past 5 years. $o growth is here.
Growth is going to come and we need a grocery store.
Workman: And 3ohn I respect your comments because you not only own a
business here but you live here.
3ohn Hennessy: I'm a taxpayer.
Workman: In 1982 I wasn't married. I didn't know a darn thing. Now in
1983 I learned everything. Third kid's on the way, I know it all. I've
definitely pondered the question about if this is such a good deal, where's
all the banks? Where's all this financing? Why isn't everybody jumping in
with us? Why? Why? Why? I know that the tenants, I know and we've gone
over because we're all grocery stores experts now. We know about Gateway
and we're confident about Gateway but Bernie's building is going to come
down. Really Todd, it's going to come down and he's going to be over
there. I've talked at great length with him. It's a good deal for him.
It's a scarey deal for him because it's higher overhead cost and all sorts
of other things but it's a good deal for him. He admits that readily.
Merlin's would be over there. Dinner Theatre in between there, they're
thinking other things going in there. Different kinds of things. So
there's three what I'd call pretty concrete.
3ohn Hennessy: Somewhat anchors yeah. I know Rich Larson's been talking
about putting...
Workman: Yeah. Rich coming up. Now does that leave Lee Miller down
there? I don't know. But I do see it as, I do get an awful lot. of
questions about when are we going to get this and when are we going to do
this? I'm from Chaska originally and nothing against Gary Cooper but
that's a smaller store down there. They're looking for something. Not
that we want to do any harm to him but Chaska people will be coming here to
this thing.
3ohn Hennessy: Some will.
Workman: Yeah. But it's something that I have pondered and I do feel
comfortable. I have certain uncomfortableness with it but I do have
confidence that it's something that can work because it's something that
needs to be filled in. Where Kenny's been here for years, maybe should
have been growing with us, never did. And when Don says it's just not
going to sprout up like that now, it's got to all come in. We've got to
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 12
give somebody some incentive to bring it in and we could have had a 22,000
or so but we said, we weren't interested in some little store where I would
still have an incentive to go to, if I lived on the north side, to go to
Driskills or wherever. We wanted something that was really going to bring
them in. They aren't going to Cub or Rainbow, they're going here and I
think this is it so we've kind of weighed that and it still doesn't make it
not scarey but I do have a lot of confidence in it.
3ohn Hennessy: I have no questions that the grocery store will be a
success...and probably Merlins, MGM, a drug store...small retailers that
generate the smaller base and...success of a center because a lot of times
the small retailers are subsidizing the large ones. I know that Brook's is
here at about $6.00-$6.25 a square foot. I'm at $9.00. A couple of the
other ones with less national affiliation, just independent operators are
$12.00 or $13.00. And it's a fact of life. The small ones do subsidize
the large ones. There's going to be a lot of people in town that are going
to want...
Chmiel: Yeah, hopefully. You're 'on the few business people in this
community that live and work here and have their business here. I've
pounded on all these doors, and Tom here. He just moved into that new low
rent district. But it's true. It's amazing. I was really very shocked
the number of people that are not from town. They don't live here but they
have a business here. I'd like to see that change. I'd like to see that
whole thing turn around.
Workman: And then incidentally, with the rest of the program Bernie needs
a place to go because Bernie can't build a building of his own.
3ohn Hennessy: I did talk to Bernie though and he's concerned about the
use of public money to finance this as well.
Workman: He's got a lot of it.
Chmiel: He shouldn't talk.
Workman: Not to belittle Bernie. Bernie's been I think a beck of a
businessman. $o it's kind of convenient because it is kind of a
reshuffling. Bernie's land with his 3 combined clap board buildings there
are worth very little. When they get this second wing of my building, I'll
call it my building, in there. I mean the tax revenue from that and that's
the whole fountain of youth there but so Bernie does need a place to go
because if we just knock his building over, he loses his franchises and
everything. And that's been the whole thing and he's kind of hung on by
his fingernails. $o he's needed a place to go and eventually Merlin's
going to need a place to go in 3 years maybe now or 2 years. Whatever it
is.
Clayton 3ohnson: It's getting down there.
Workman: It seems like it was 5 years ago just yesterday.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 13
Clayton Johnson: He needs a place to go because he's just simply outgrown.
Workman: So it is kind of a convenience or place for these guys to go and
continue to do business. Or choose to go out of business. So there's all
sorts of things going on. I don't mean to justify or to belittle your
comments either because it's been a real tussle I think for us.
3ohn Hennessy: I'm not squeezing...my concerns. If there's other avenues
for money to be spent...senior facilities. I just wanted to know if these
are ridiculous questions or...
Gerhardt: I think the HRA's working on that one too.
Workman: We're working on the senior. And the number really, if I can say
this, and it's a rather tempting number. By the end of all this in 2003 or
whatever it is. By the end of all this work that Don and Todd and
everybody's been doing, really amounts to about $22 million dollars of
monies that we can use for community centers or senior centers or botchy
ball courts or whatever we need in town so that is sizeable. That's for us
to, or we can return it to the County and lower taxes.
John Hennessy: What a concept.
Chmiel: I like those lower taxes.
3ohn Hennessy: You'll get some support.
Ashworth: And that has been a priority of the HRA. There are programs
that the HRA is looking to in incorporating... Probably senior housing.
Housing is a project that can be taken on by an HRA. Senior community
center. You cannot take on a community center. You previously could not
build a community center. Two years ago there was a change in the law that
said that in all these sections, all the prohibitions and things like
building City Halls were very taboo. All of a sudden mysteriously there
was a sentence that said, that this shall not be construed as to mean that
tax increment money cannot be used for community center or arena. Of
course then they said, how did that get in there? Came in at the very let
hour of the legislature and when they said or arena, they were talking
about the Timberwolf arena and that's how the provision got in there. So
right now there is a small door for community centers as they would deal
either with seniors or on a regular scale.
John Hennessy: Okay, thank you.
Ashworth: If I may for just one minute. I think in my report I noted that
I would ask Clayton or Brad to be present and to comment on where they
stood with the loan process. Both the temporary and permanent and if we
could have Clayton just kind of update us on where that loan is so we know
when ground breaking might occur.
Clayton Johnson: Thanks Don. I'd be happy to do that. I'd also like to
address a couple of John's concerns. First the concer.n of the small tenant
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 14
space. I think everybody's aware as you drive around the metropolitan area
you see a tremendous amount of small tenant space vacant. We recognized
that about a year and a half ago'into the, you know this has been a 3 year
program. We've been working on this thing and I don't know the gestation
period of an elephant's only 29 months isn't it. This has taken, we're in
hard labor right now. 8ut anyway we shrunk the size of the center by
approximately 12,000 square feet. From 22,000 square feet of small tenant
space down to about 12,000 square feet and created an additional outlot
because the one thing that we found as we go through this process, the o~e
thing that's very sellable with the grocery store in place, with the center
in place are the outlots. So I think we've addressed that issue. The
second thing is, why hasn't the center been financed in 3 years? I don't
know. I guess you're going to have to believe whoever you want to believe
but I guess I'd like to think that the center has continually become more
financable and more attractive. But what's been working against us is the
lending climate out there. The lending climate has changed dramatically.
The other thing that I think is note worthy here is that when we, we
couldn't get anybody to put any kind of a grocery store in Chanhassen.
Then we finally talked somebody into it. 22,000 square foot grocery store.
When we had a 22,000 square foot grocery store, we did not have a
desireable location for a drug store. Walgrens is a AAA tenant. Walgreens
won't go in unless there's at least a 35,000 square foot grocery store so
we had to go and attract small tenants. We've gone and gotten the Merlin's
Hardware and the MGM Liquors and the Town Drugs. These are local
merchants. Now these guys have good credit but they are not what are
considered credit tenants. In other words, if you want to get financing at
Charlie's bank, you bring in a Gateway lease, you bring in a Walgreens
lease and you've got a loan. What has been characteristic of this project
is we've had to attract the National tenant for the grocery store but from
there on we have a lot of local merchants who we know have a long history
of being in business. They're successful. We are confident they will pay
the rent but you don't necessarily convince a lender in New York City of
that. But I think that has been characteristic of this project and believe
me it's been a tough 3 years. 8ut here's where we're at very quickly. We
have the, we are before the loan committee at Lutheran Brotherhood on
Monday. 3uly 22nd. We've been through about 3 versions of that loan but I
think the one that we signed last week is the one that will be approved on
Monday. It is very important that the development agreement that you've
been reviewing, that we get that in it's final form before Wednesday of
next week. Wednesday of next week Amcon meets with the construction lender
and we can't keep bringing the construction lender different deals so when
he goes down there on Wednesday, we really would like to have a corrected
version of the development agreement in our hands because we believe that
we will get a nod of the head from them on the 29th which is the following
Monday. The earliest that we could close then would be on August 22nd
which is 30 days from the date of the loan committee meeting at Lutheran
Brotherhood. I think that might be a little optimistic because there is a
significant amount of negotiation that has to go on between the lenders
attorneys. Meaning Bank One and Lutheran Brotherhood. I think there's
some concerns. I asked 3ohn Rice for an update for tonight's meeting. I
didn't get one. Paul, I think he's going to be calling you to see where
we're at in regards to all of the other processes. In regard to the filing
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 15
of the plat and whether or not Todd, whether or not public hearings are
required for the land sale. I think you're under the impression that they
are. We're going to have to make sure we get these scheduled because we
are aiming for a closing on the land. Now the thing that's driving the
land closing is of course the Gateway lease. The Gateway lease currently
calls for construction to commence by September 1 so that means we're on
that type of a timeframe. Any other questions?
Chmiel: I did want to just mention the fact that 3 years ago, I do
remember when you were blond.
Clayton Johnson: When I was blond?
UPDATE ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE DOWNTOWN PARK DESIGN.
Ashworth: You should have received at home a direct mailing from the
architect, Barton-Aschmann. Barry Warner .... continued refinement of the
idea that the HRA had presented oh really just the last several years.
...voiced more effectively here in the last 2 to 3 months. We had about 6
different alternatives previously. Some of the things that you had liked
from the plan and I think he has now more or less incorporated into the
most current plan. A little bit of a backgTound. The HRA has talked for a
long period of time about being able to have a central park within the
downtown area. Something like the City of Chaska has. Somewhere where you
can have community events. Summer bands...sell merchandise, etc.. We
looked at different areas in the downtown have been very different. One of
the areas the HRA has continued to talk about is the piece out here in
front of City Hall. From staff's perspective it's always been really
fearful because it's such a small, thin, narrow piece of property. Where
the thing finally started to make some sense was if you take the street
out. The current street in front. Now all of a sudden that's a much
bigger piece and all of a sudden City Hall becomes a large piece. Many of
the cities will have a county court building in kind of the downtown areas.
Part of that same central park theme. So here were some of the concepts
the HRA appeared in my mind. You liked the idea of the band shell over in
this corner. The idea that that again could be used as a part of summer
band in the park type of thing. Various types of presentations. Public
affairs. We put a plaza in here but my recollection was that you had
wanted to bring this plaza over in front of the amphitheatre area so in
fact people would have, so you would have these concrete areas with
planters with a tree in it. You could sit on there and listen to this and
then there would be concrete around that. Places to throw a blanket down
but also for vendors as a part of Oktoberfest, any of those type of events.
To literally merchandise and for groups to gather in their Oktoberfest or
7th of July. In that process you have liked the idea of a street coming
around. He's shown this as a loop this way and I really' think the natural
touch down for any type of new road would be up in here. If this point
here, you probably have about a 20 foot drop in elevation from this area
here down to the street. As you move up, the two pieces, the street
section and property are about the same. That also would benefit, if this
would ever come up. I don't know what your thought about a turn around
type of thing. In the last one, one of the alternatives was leaving the
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 199i - Page 16
existing street in but kind of having a drop off zone so that people could
come by City Hall. There'd be a drop off so you can pull your car there.
Let somebody out or pick up kids associated with whatever affair or drop
off elderly or whatever. Anyway moving this road up, whether or not you
incorporated the turn around or not I guess is up to you. But would allow
us then to expand this upper parking in here. So I think the potential for
a touch down here. Coming back around again. The turn around I don't know
but that would allow us to expand that parking lot.
Chmiel: How would that effect the ball diamond that's existing now?
Ashworth: Not really. If you go out there, there's a real under
utilization of land as you get way in the back here. You literally moved
everything back. We're in the process of updating that comprehensive plan.
Todd is look at that. He's fully aware of what we're doing. Right now
because we're going to be reconstructing some of those fields at the
current time so this is the time to be rethinking those kind of issues.
Then this was from our notes, the type of sidewalk configuration...an area
where people could potentially maybe go throw out blankets. If you wanted
to maintain a high green type of an image in here. We met with the owners
of the existing old bank building as well as the vacant piece. That's Ray
and Lou Mithune. We showed this to them because we wanted to bring them
in early in the process so if they had any comments or concerns or whatever
that they could make us aware of. They were very supportive. Mr. Mithune
I think, his comment was we purchased the property anticipating that we
would resell it. That it would be some type of a commercial use and we
would make money but we are very open to do things that are good for the
community. If it's the HRA's determination that this is in the long range
best interest of the city, we are very supportive of that concept. Our
primary position is we're supportive of the community and I guess I was, I
shouldn't say I was exactly surprised. He brought up one concern and that
was that parking right now is a concern for the bank. He's basically
saying if you're adding this much additional use associated with weekday
activities so every Wednesday night we have something occurring. Something
through the school. Band in the Park. Is it really logical that you can
get by with exactly the same number of parking lots that you have today are
going to meet the expanded uses that you'll probably will occur as a part
of this property? The fact is, things like 4th of 3uly, Oktoberfest you'd
never build enough lots to accommodate all those. But I think the week
night type of thing in what do they call it in Chaska? Day in the Park?
Music in the Park? Music in the park type of events, we reasonably should
be able to handle that traffic and that parking should be reasonably close
to this facility. I guess it really lends itself to looking to somehow
trying to expand this lower southeasterly lot and I don't know if you would
have some kind of turn around condition where you'd have two additional
bays in here. Two additional, that type of thing so it'd be U shaped.
Literally double the size of that.
Chmiel: Of course the space that we would be putting in or what is
existing once the library moves from this position, the amount of parking
spaces aren't going to be needed as much at that time. So maybe what's
shown now would be sufficient for the long run.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 18, 1991 - Page 17
Ashworth: I tried to go through that issue in my own mind. What it really
comes down to is how are you going to potentially use that space. If that
space becomes expanded for Council meetings, probably the need of the
parking lot would be no more than it is today. The times that we get the
100 people in here like we did on the Minnewashta Parkway issue 2 weeks ago
isn't that often. I mean most the time we've got 10-15 people.
Bohn: People could still park in the shopping center across the street.
The new shopping center.
Ashworth: At one point in time, and I don't know where, it'd almost have
to be there. Especially with this type of arrangement but there was a
concept that basically said as this community grows and as we go past the
6,000 mark to the 8,000 and the 10,000, in fact I think even one of the...
public safety reports picked out that 1,000 number...
(There was a changing of tapes at this point in the discussion.)
Robbins: You know you've got traffic going both ways. I can see that
could be a real interesting with traffic coming both ways and stopping and
starting.., with a circle there of some sort. I'm just in general.
Ashworth: You put a center island in so your lane comes down and then your
lane goes all the way around this way. The other lanes goes...
Robbins: I lived in Europe for 2 years. I know all about those circles.
8ut in general the way it's constructed I'm not saying, the way I like it
is similar to you've got walking trails. You've got trees. You've got a
band. You've got some things in there so it's starting to come along.
Bohn: I'd like to see that plaza.
Robbins: Yeah, the plaza needs to be moved.
Bohn: The band shell all the way over in front of City Hall.
Ashworth: I think that really needs to be done.
Workman: Don, is that seating there or is that? That's seating there
right?
Ashworth: Well the way he has this right now, the grass he was just
thinking for people to bring a blanket or whatever.
Workman: Where would a person speak? Where the band play? Is that a
stage or is that seating for people?
Ashworth: No, this is the amphitheatre itself.
Workman: Oh, so it's a shell?
Ashworth: Yeah.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 18, 1991 - Page 18
Workman: So people would be sitting out in the grass?
Ashworth: Right. But the idea there is, you can still have people in the
grass in this section. Why not bring the plaza type of idea over in here
and then that way, like the Chaska thing, you could have the vending. 3chh
could be over having some pizza sales while people are listening to the
band play.
Workman: It just doesn't seem symmetrical for some reason. What would
this cost?
Ashworth: Well, the sidewalk and grass and those types of things are
relatively... Part of that is going to be what type of construction will
you be looking to. Different kinds of models. Do you really wanted a
stage? Do you want amphitheatres or do you want more like a gazebo type
thing? And again, the big cost is purchasing the old bank. Knocking it
down and purchasing the vacant property. That's the big expense is the
land acquisition. The secondary one is removal of the existing street and
then reconstruction of that. The street though, that's all the sewer and
water and all those things would basically stay in. There's no extensions
and what not. It would be street only and that's not that expensive.
Gerhardt: One of the other things you've got going on is you've got street
construction going on in the community and there is some available dirt out
there. That site out there right now is very low. They are looking for
places for fill so you would bring that entire site up to West 78th Street
level.
Ashworth: The appearance would be really significantly different and again
that's another good reason to remove the street because the street was
actually put in kind of depressed to match some of these others. We had
both sides. The whole thing could be brought up and really could be made
to look, this is one large community park site.
Bohn: What do we have to do to go ahead and purchase that property and the
bank building?
Ashworth: You need to amend your redevelopment plan to show the
acquisition of those two pieces. The plan would have to show not only
cross hatch those parcels but you'd also have to show that on the
expenditure side so you'd have to detail and show those budgets for the
purchase of the land. While you're doing that you'd show a budget in the
amount of money necessary to convert this into a park area. This one link
I think is, except for the amphitheatre and that's again how...
$200,000.00...
Workman: Well you know I've been talking to people like Chris Polster and
Joe Scott and some real active people.in town who are looking for things
like this. We've got the old Village Hall area over there. Now that draws
some criticisms for noise. It's not a very big area but we've got that.
And then just across we're thinking about making the rest, potentially
making a park out of Pauly/Pony/Pryzmus area potentially. Then across the
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
3uly 18, 1991 - Page 19
street next to my building there's a little outlot. They can make a park
there and a permanent Christmas tree and people have talked. You know
we've got this big thing going on at Lake Ann potentially an amphitheatre
or potentialy something out there. Where we do have parking. That's where
this thing kind of starts to I don't know if we're getting too much of this
downtown or we're going to have too much or maybe what we need to do is
look at the long range for Lake Ann and are we going to do something in
connection with the center out there because it would seem natural to do
something out there where you have a lot of room. I don't know, on a non-
softball night. I like the idea of this and as I've talked to 3oe Scott
and Chris Polster, every year I mark down and I find out when's the Uptown
Art Fair down on Hennepin and Lake to go down there. If they had someth'ing
like that. Maybe that can be done. Or is it Lake Ann? Or other type
functions and things. More reasons to bring people into downtown and buy
pizza.
Chmiel: How to stimulate the downtown.
Robbing: But you have to look at the park. This may be a very general
comparison. This appears to be a city park where it's a walking park.
You're not going to be putting up ballfields here. Lake Ann's a drive type
park. You can walk to Lake Ann. Typically most of your traffic in there
is driving in there to play the ball or go swimming or use the boat.
Workman: It's more active.
Robbing: Sure it is. The styles are totally different.
Bohn: It's filled most of the time.
Workman: Right. What I'm saying is, we're building the shetler type thing
out there. Very nice looking thing and a place where people are going to
be congregating for various reasons.
Gerhardt: I see your point about the amphitheatre. Should the
amphitheatre be in the downtown area I think is what Tom is saying or
should it be out at Lake Ann where you can facilitate a larger crowd of say
200-300 where down here you could probably only have...
Workman: Yeah because I can envision something like a Tuesday night
concert series or something. Whatever, or the kind of thing that this city
would eat up personally.
Ashworth: Most of them haven't really been successful. I know from our
own case because we've tried that. We tried to get the band to take and go
out to, the Chaska band to go out to Lake Ann. They really haven't wanted
to do it. The times that we have been, had those types of things, it's as
though the people won't identify with Lake Ann in that type of activity.
Workman: Sure. I understand that.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
3uly 18, 1991 - Page 20
Ashworth: The Chaska one, you know the businesses, for whatever reason
where that is that central park downtown, it just goes. It's a definite
winner. I told Todd Hoffman I can make that go for you. The area over
there by the old church, you're absolutely right. We tried to do little
band things there. We did get noise but that was a two way street because
you're so close to that roadway and that became very difficult to hear
Jerry Carlson sing or whoever else we had over there. It has worked very
well though, and especially if we do move Pauly/Pony/Pryzmus, the library
goes on that site. Expand that little courtyard area. That works great
for the art fairs. For the type of things where they want to be a concrete
area. They want to show off towards the street and again the art fairs,
the Historical Society has been successful in that location. There's a
number of things that work well in again that type of an area that wouldn't
ncessarily work here nor would they work good at Lake Ann. So I really
believe in my own mind that you established different facilities at
different areas for different purposes.
Bohn: 4th of 3uly, Oktoberfest. This would be ideal because of the
parking. People want to be downtown when that's going on.
Workman: I don't know. But we'd be spending an awful lot of money for the
4th of July and Oktoberfest.
Bohn: There'd be more things than that.
Robbins: I see it used daily. If you have it structured like a park
setting, look at the downtown parks. Peary Plaza. Downtown. I used to
work downtown. I used to work in St. Paul so I know where the nearest park
area is. As well as Rice Park. You've got people constantly walking there
every day and the more you build up downtown, you have people coming out of
the hotel. Shopping centers. All of the.
Workman: I'm not against it.
Robbins: I see this as being almost 100~ walking park.
Workman: I'm not against it. I'm just saying we can over do it because we
have all these little parks in downtown Chanhassen for a specific thing.
We're going to have the Christmas tree lighting park and we're going to
have the art park and we're going to have the music park and the walking
park and then we're not going to have any tax base down there.
Chmiel: Then we'll have the clock tower.
Workman: The clock tower light the Christmas tree park. And I need to get
a better concept. I would think that people would want to set up booths
along that perimeter for things and they're very visible. People drive by
and hey, there's a concert going on. Look there's Tom yodeling or selling
or doing whatever. It almost would seem to me to be an even better spot
than down by the old Village Hall because it's open and you drive by a lot
of traffic. People stop in. That's why Chaska's park does so well. And
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 18, 1991 - Page 21
I am reminded that as a youth I was frightened to even walk through that
park. So that can happen too.
Ashworth: Chaska park?
Workman: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean it used to be a hippie park. You
couldn't walk through it.
Gerhardt: That was in the 60's right?
Workman: But I don't know. I need some more input. This is the first
time I've really seen it. I don't know if you guys talked about this at
the last meeting.
Chmiel: Rather extensively.
Workman: I'm not against it. I'm not going to be a stick in the mud but
it is a big, it's grandiose on that scale and that's going to be a million
bucks. Or more. That's a lot of dough.
Ashworth: What staff is suggesting is that we go into a regular formal
hearing process. That we send, I'll have to check with, I think I had that
in my memo to be able to tell you tonight but I can't .... our next
newsletter is I'd like to go ahead and put this in there. This is just
something the HRA is thinking about. Are there ideas for how this can be
used and invite people to come in and talk about it. I'm sure 3ohn has
never heard of this before. If he hadn't just happened to be in here
tonight he would not have known anything about it. I think as a merchant
within the downtown, I'm sure that he'd like to be...
Chmiel: Those are just one of the things you have to look at because once
that parcel is gone or somebody else builds on that, that's the end of it.
So I think what we have to do is look off into the future and how this is
going to affect the community. Not now but 20 years from now or 30 years
from now. And to provide those kinds of aesthetics within the community.
Also draw for the community. I too feel the dollars that we spend is and
should be looked at very closely. And to put a million dollars into
something of that nature is one beck of a lot of money. But you're never
going to have the opportunity to ever do it again either.
John Hennessy: If you did, what would it cost 5 years from now?
Chmiel: That's another aspect.
Workman: Okay, let's do it.
Ashworth: I'd like to hear what 3ohn has to say but assuming that the new
grocery goes in and businesses there, I would see that you would start to
develop more and more of a Downtown Merchants Association and become more
and more active. If you went over to that group and said, can you help us
and we can put on 3 acts per week whether it be music or whatever, would
you help support that? I really think that the business group would love
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 18, 1991 - Page 22
to take and see something going on down in the City Center Park you know 5
days a week. Or 3 nights and the weekends. Just asking your downtown
merchants.
Chmiel: 3ust in having Crazy Days and different situations happening
within the downtown. A good place to come to. To concentrate on. Maybe
even bring some of the businesses down in here.
Workman: Maybe NSP could fire up some cash.
Chmiel: We already did. $234,000.00. We made our contribution.
Administrative instruction that we developed for the community of
Chanhassen.
Bohn: Did you have a question Dick?
Dick Wing: I think we're hearing more and more, as Bill Moresh from the
Urban Science Center from the University was on our highway tour and one
thing he pointed out and specified was that the City Hall is a central area
of downtown. People ought to be able to find it. They ought to be able to
recognize it. It happens to be on the sight line from TH 5 as you come
over the bridge it's very visible. The City Hall is there. It sits really
high. He commented on protecting that sight line and making the downtown,
the City Hall visible to downtown. If somebody comes in and wants to see
the Mayor or City Manager, they don't have to ask where City Hall is. It's
a focal point and I think this really is in line with his suggestions on
that sight line from TH 5. It's sitting, the City Hall on a loop and the
flags. I think it's an excellent proposal. He was mentioning $22 million
dollars. There's a lot of ways you could spend it but this is a way to
address it. This is really a long term...of the city much more so than
some of the other ideas. I support it totally...
Bohn: What's our next step with this?
Ashworth: The formal step is authorizing staff to redraft the
redevelopment plan and get it to the County and the School. Get it to the
point of a public hearing to amend that plan. Staff though is recommending
in the interim, where you have just a general public hearing to get input
from the community. And in putting out our newsletter we try to put it out
through that. If we don't have one coming up, then we would do individual
mailing to all of the businesses and we try to get, normally I think you go
within 300 feet. We'd expand that to somewhere like all of downtown and
Western Hills. Try to get as much input that way. We could also put it in
the newspaper.
Bohn: Do we need a motion for this?
Ashworth: I would prefer a motion that would authorize staff to prepare
the notices for a public hearing on this and to insure that the entire
community is aware of this. I guess that would be the motion.
Bohn: Do I hear a motion?
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 18, 1991 - Page 23
Chmiel: So moved.
Robbins: Second.
Bohn: Any questions?
Chmiel moved, Robbins seconded that the HRA direct staff to prepare notices
for a public hearing on the downtown park design concept. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Dick Wing: Mr. Chairman...fairly informal and I didn't know where to put
in the comment. Number two, the Market Square...
Bohn: Fi ne. Go ahead.
Dick Wing: The pros and cons and the needs and the dollars, financing and
the resources for the Market Square project are really kind of beyond me. I
came into the project very late being newly elected but one thing that does
concern me is the corridor study for TH 5 and what we learned from that.
Jim you have numerous times mentioned and I've heard you kind of quietly be
concerned about the appearance of this Market Square. I just hope that the
HRA's zeal for this shopping center, Market Square. The grocery store,
doesn't allow second best and drop some established design standards which
I think the HRA has established. I hope the zeal for this project doesn't
exceed the best interest and the long range needs and goals of the City of
Chanhassen. Specifically I'm looking at the design standards and the
appearance of the building. From TH 5 right now, as I'm looking at it, it
would be sort of like Target on TH 7 in St. Louis Park. You're going to be
driving massive traffic around TH 7 and we're going to be looking right at
a typical mall. A typical square and I realize the importance for the
project and I support the project but to me to say it's going to cost a
fortune to put that roof on this building, when we look 20 years down the
road it's just irrelevant to me at this point. As Bill Moresh pointed out,
to use that name again, we're moving the entire focus of downtown to Market
Square. All of downtown is going to be focused to Market Square and
everything you're doing with the clock tower and this new prQposal for the
city park is centralizing it right at Market Square and I think it's the
biggest thing that's ever going to happen in the City of Chanhassen. So my
concern is the appearance of that building and the flat roof and I want to
be very supportive of Jim and his concerns and I want to be on record, not
only as a resident but as a member of City Council saying that I think to
go ahead with a flat roof is inappropriate. And even if it costs us money,
I would have to support it because it's such a permanent thing. Once. we do
it wrong, it's never going to be corrected. I'm not sure what the best
roof would be. I agree with a large 30,000 square foot building you do
have problems but I think we can do a better job than we've done. I think
if we don't have the money to do it, if we don't want to spend the money to
do it, then we don't need the project this bad because as has been pointed
out by 3Chh, there's grocery stores all over. Again, I support the project
but I think it should be done right. I think it should be done first
class. I think we should spend, if the money's there and if it's
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
3uly 18, 1991 - Page 24
available, I think we ought to go first class on it. Let me just make
sure, I'm focusing just on the issue of the appearance. Oh, on the sight
line discussion it was pointed out the historic steeple of the church. The
nice job that's been done on the Medical building. The very attractive
roof line on the hotel and the apartment building. All of these are
correcting a sight problem that exists with the bowling alley right now as
you drive down Chanhassen. It kind of looks like you're going through
rural America and there's the bowling alley and the back side of the
buildings and I see you continuing that problem if you go with the existing
design standard. So I think you've created an incredibly good project
downtown with the roof lines you've got and you really have established
something there. I'm almost starting to look at it from the road saying
this is a good looking little town. But it's going to, the entire focus is
going to pull into that building and I think the buiding ought to follow
the current design. Whether you've done it intentionally or not. Whatever
you've done has been very good and I'm hoping that the City Planner will
support this idea fully and so on and so forth. Being a somewhat
progressive in his thinking. Thank you.
Bohn: Thank you.
Wot kman: Liberal.
Gerhardt: Again, if I can expand on Dick's comments. They were expressed
to Paul. Paul expressed those back to me and I mean we did go ahead
without HRA input to meet with Amcon, the potential builder for this retail
center to give us some visuals from the viaduct and to look at figures for
what it would cost to peak the roof and other alternatives. As soon as we
get that information back we will bring you back together and discuss all
those alternatives.
Ashworth: Would it be possible to consider modifying the agenda to jump
down to number 6 while Dick is still here? The Mayor and Councilman Wing
have been very active in terms of this whole project. I would like to see
if Pat is present, to discuss that. Is that possible?
Workman: I would so move.
Chmiel: Second.
Workman moved, Chmiel seconded to amend the agenda to change the order to
discuss item 6 before item 4. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
CONSIDER ENTERING INTO A JOINT pOWERS AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE UNIVERSITY OF
MINNESOTA/LANDSCApE. ARBORETUM/CHANHASSEN HRA FOR THE HIGHWAY 5 STREETSCAPE
PROJECTS.
Ashworth: This is a project I'm really excited about. I don't know if
you've had an opportunity to go through the whole packet but again,
Councilman Wing was very instrumental, since he's been elected he's
continued to say he does not want the west end of TH 5 to look like the
east end of TH 5 looks and I continue to say. We rephrase that to say you
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
3uly 18, 1991 - Page 25
don't want the west end of TH 5 to look like the east end currently looks.
We are at a point in time where we will make more decisions regarding the
imagery that's really along TH 5 and at any point in time in the last
or 200 years or the next 200 years in the future. TH 5 itself is a major
part of the imagery. I mean here we are converting what used to be a black
topped, asphalted 2 lane road coming from Minneapolis out to Chanhassen. I
don't know if you've been out there recently but in the newest contract
meetings into Chanhassen, all the way through Chanhassen, it is going to be
concrete and you're talking about some very large highway. In the area of
Rosemount. You're talking about 2 thru lanes on either side. Dedicated
two left lanes into Rosemount. Dedicated right lane into downtown.
Dedicated right lane on the other. You start counting all of that up and
you count 8 or 9 lanes at that intersection. $o we've done some things,
meaning the HRA...of interest to highlight that roadway and change that so
it's not just a sea of white. And again the image will be entirely
different from that... We are in the middle of purchasing Taco, the
Red-E-Mix. We have a major portion of the Hanus property. The Bongard
east, the most southerly apartment building. 'When TH 101 is redeveloped,
there will be massive open space areas on either side. It becomes
difficult envisioning what is that this is really going to look like.
mean we're talking about controlling right in that area alone almost 3,000
feet of the highway. It will be a 6 to 8 block long length of road. In
the old days what they used to do is stand out with a camera and take like
a 35 mm camera. Take a series of wide angle shots. Blow those up on a
board and put that in front of you and that's what you were currently
seeing. And then you would take an overlay and you would erase out the
Taco and erase out the Red-E-Mix and you'd move the entire roadway out and
you'd erase away the southerly apartment building and the Bongard property
and then you'd repaint in another overlay. The new roadway. The new large
green areas. The new road as it would go into the downtown area. The
signal that would be necessary as a part of that. Well today, and it's
been through some work that Dick has done, all of that can be done through
computers. They basically do the same type of thing. You take the series
of photos but then they digitize those. They scan those into the computer
and you look on the screen and there is that same intersection as it exists
today. But the neat part then is any type of an idea that you might have
or you can use the computer to move things around. What happens if we put
commercial in here? What happens, another good example as you stand out on
TH 5 and look to the south. Right now that's a very positive image. With
Rosemount on the one side and the treed area of what is the Ward property
on the left hand side. There's another smaller piece in there. You could
play a lot of what it type of things. What if they come in and bulldoze
down all of the trees on the Ward property and put in a Winnebago car sales
lot versus what if? You can actually leave a portion of the trees in or
you could put in. Anyway, what we have done is we have met with the
University, with the Landscape Arboretum because they're a player in this
as well. You can stand out at TH 41 and TH 5 and do this same type of
thing. What happens? What is it going to look if Mill's Fleet Farm is
developed on that northeast corner of TH 41 and TH 5? Being able to take
and have a computer show you what that's going to look like and having the
ability to have professions like Bill Moresh help the City in terms of
setting standards for development so that we no longer just have to use an
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 18, 1991 - Page 26
ordinance to say what is it that we want. We're simply relying on our
ability to look and see what is it going to look like from TH $... What
does it look like at TH 5 and Market Blvd.? Right here down by the pond.
Looking into town. Because you do have a positive image of City Hall. Now
what you see is just the vacant land. We can put that grocery store, the
supermarket complex, the Market Square development right onto the screen
and you can see what that...is goin~ to look like versus... You can see
what it would look like if you maintain a green image in front of TH 5 so
you can hardly see City Hall versus what hap~>ens if you allow a larger
apartment structure to be built on this vacant property in front? I think
that it's just a great project. I'm happy with the way we've negotiated it
up to this point. It provides the City. The other side of this.is the
University has been working on this technology, trying to do this for the
last two years. They are literally at a point where they would like to
take and have a guinea pig. Somebody that they can come in. Do this work
for and show that it has real application throughout the State of
Minnesota. So any.work that we would do, I would anticipate is going to be
carried out from city to city to city showing those cities what can be done
in their community. I haven't.done a very good job of presenting this
report...with the Arboretum to develop the computer technology project to
actually give us a visual image of every one of those intersections and to
develop a design scenario for what we want to see happen at Great Plains
and TH 5. Both north and south. What we want to see happen at TH lO1 and
TH 5. What we want to see happen at Dell Road. We took the bus tour and
so many facets of this. Again the momentum came back through work that
Dick had been doing over at the University and through Bill Moresh and it
also dealt with goals process that the City Council had established. Again
this issue of making sure TH 5 west is developed in a very positive
fashion. To have seen that happen, we met on Saturday morning and Jim and
Don joined us for a little bit of time...Charlie happened to stop by just
as we were starting that meeting but we loaded everybody uP on a bus and we
went out and basically looked at all of these points and that was kind of
the start for this program. Now it's progressing down into a specific type
of a task and staff is recommending that you authorize us to move to the
next step which would be to actually bring back a contract that would
represent a 3 way cost splitting on this project between the University,
Arboretum and yourself. Dick, do you wish to say anything?
Dick Wing: No. No, my original comment was slightly flipant and wasn't
intended to be offensive. I guess I speak the way I think and that's not
always... As Paul has pointed out, what was there...in years past is
quickly changing and... So obviously if we did nothing, what's going to
happen on TH 5 west will be dramatically different than TH 5 east in the
past. As long as the Council is aware of this. I'm excited about seeing
TH 5 be something different. I guess that's what...and I live in
Excelsior. I don't ever have to come to Chanhassen the rest of my life
literally but it's such a unique little community. And all these, Paul in
his little getting things together and the HRA has created all these
things...you taking an interest in TH 5, I think that will be even more
interesting. So I just support what you said and... Paul's been
addressing sign ordinances and design standards and lighting standards and
all this, someone has to coordinate it. Whether it's HRA or the Council or
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
3uly 18, 1991 - Page 27
staff. I've said nothing other than I'm excited about it and I hope some
of the rest of you are as excited as I am about the potentially for really
controlling TH 5. Not controlling business. Yeah, that gives us our added
development. Just seeing it done in a unique, very'attractive classy way
such as is occurring downtown right now. What's happening downtown move
toward the west. I guess one comment I would make is that in the meeting
at the Arboretum, which wa~ somewhat controversial, I think it was sort of
decided that the Arboretum would like to see all development center around
the Arboretum and move towards Chanhassen and develop all green but I had
to walk out of there saying who are they? I see the development start
downtown and then move out towards the Arboretum. It's a two way road and
I think we're kind of driving the car and I'd like to stay in the driver's
seat.
Ashworth: I should mention that aspect and that is, Paul has shown concern
and there was debate all the way through the Comprehensive Plan update
process as to is the Arboretum kind of dictating to us or I suppose if
you're Peter Olin, the rest of the facility. In some ways he feels that
Chaska/Chanhassen/Victoria are dictating to him and are they really doing
it in a coordinated fashion. There's a fear in terms of the Joint Powers
Agreement that maybe be brought the enemy into your camp. I look at it the
other way and that is that I'd rather' have him in the camp. I think it's
easier to deal with somebody than to let him stand outside and throw stones
over the top of the walls. We shouldn't create the walls.
Workman: Peter kind of has laid, or dug his own hole I think. The one
meeting I was at the Planning Commission, Wayne Bongard kind of got a hold
of that tail and spun it. I agree with you about bringing him into the
camp. Within my first year and this is taboo because you don't refer to
your spouse on the City Council. Well my spouse thinks, because we had a
Council member who always did. Well my wife thinks that that wouldn't look
too good but my wife asked me a question about the development and you know
I moved into that medical building because it's a classy building and I
really liked it. But the words unique, attractive and classy do dictate to
a business person increased expense. But my wife's original question was,
because she works up in Wayzata and drives through the lake every day and
sees all the decadence and everything else. How come we don't have all
these nice brick buidings and beautiful buildings and great downtown
shopping district and everything else? Well it's a different climate. It's
different money. It's a different market and everything else which she
didn't fully understand and I didn't probably do a good job of explaining.
And so I think this is again, I don't know if we're going to get our
weather station or where that is. Is that?
Krauss: They're still moving forward. Slowly but they're moving forward.
Workman: That excites me. That's a cutting edge thing. I love that idea.
This is a bargain for what we can do truthfully and this is a cutting edge
thing that I would be excited about doing. If this park in front of City
Hall is something that we'd better darn well do because in 50 years we'll
be glad we did, this is multiplied by 100 and has at least a value of times
100 over that. That's a component. This is all encompassing I think. So
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 18, 1991 - Page 28
$20,000.00 is a mere pittance I think and Don, you don't get too excited
about a lot of things.
Chmiel: Except computers.
Workman: Yeah, computers and money. But when you're designing it and if
we can bring a 8MW or a Lexus Dealer in and they do them very nice and
stuffy, and you are the three words that you said Richard. Unique,
attractive and classy. That does dictate a certain clientele and it
dictates a certain type of business owner and so we have Larry's RV Sales
probably won't be in there which we probably don't want anyway. But it
does kind of dictate that. But Chanhassen is a classy community and
deserves things like that and can probably support them. I don't know.
That's a big kind of question I have.
Chmiel: I think that's true. And not only that but we can also apply to
some of the other things we have coming in like Ryan Construction to look
at the potential right along TH 5 to what we want to see there as was
discussed. We have this particular machine within our company that is
excellent. You can't beat it because it gives you ideas and thoughts that
you'd never really think about doing and come up with the appearances that
you really would like to have within and give it the most aesthetic and
pleasing kind of appearance to blend the community in. Now when you use
that word community, because that's really what it boils down to. How can
we make this community something exceptional. The more exceptionalities
that you put into it, the better the business people as we have right here
within this community. We think about those types of things and it's
great. It really is and I support it as well.
Workman: Well we have the wherewithal to get accomplished the long range
and it is truly a lost opportunity if we do not do it. You can talk about
specific programs. You can talk about community centers and different
things. This is something that would be kind of a creeping thing and kind
of be slow and creeping and people probably wouldn't understand that they
got it until it was all done. But something that I know when I'm Don's age
I'll realize that we did it and appreciate it.
Bohn: Can we have a motion?
Workman: A motion to bring the, have staff bring a contract back ~elating
to this or maybe some more details?
Ashworth: You're authorizing us to develop a 3oint Powers Agreement to
show that the HRA expenditure would not be more than $20,000.00.
Robbi ns: Second.
Norkman moved, Robbins seconded that the Housing and Redevelopment
Authority authorize staff to develop a Joint Powers Agreement between the
University of Minnesota/Landscape Arboretum/ Chanhassen HRA for the Highway
5 Streetscape project in an amount not to exceed $20,000.00. Ail voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
3uly 18, 1991 - Page 29
CONSIDER AUTHORIZING STAFF TO IMPLEMENT THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE "CENTRAL
BUSINESS DISTRICT TRAFFIC STUDY" AS PREPARED BY STRGAR-RO$COE-FAUSCH, INC.
Gerhardt: The HRA at our last meeting was presented with the downtown
traffic report from Strgar-Roscoe. In that report they outlined some of
the future traffic patterns as they would be established in the downtown.
Taking into consideration the existing businesses and future business as
the present zoning is outlined. From that report they made several
recommendations for improvements with the current roadway structure as it
is today and into the future. From that report we then never did take any
action after the presentation was taken from the HRA. We took that report
to the City Council. Strgar came in and made that same presentation to
them and City Council directed staff to meet with the downtown businessmen.
From that we had a meeting on 3uly 2nd. We had about 3 businessmen show
up. We went through the report with them. There were several things
discussed about the report and of that I listed 3 of them that they wanted
to see accomplished. One was the reduce some of the median noses to allow
some of the U turn movements and left turn and right turn movements. Make
those a little easier. A second thing was to remove some of the trees for
sight lines so you have better sight line distances. And look at the
possibility of installing right turn lanes wherever possible. I think
number 3 was highlighted in the Strgar report. Paul is here tonight also
to talk about some of the effects of this report and how they outline with
Market Square and some of the activity occurring with those outlots over
there. Do you want to highlight Market Square at this time?
Krauss: Does that fit in right now? That's fine.
Gerhardt: Yeah, why don't you.
Krauss: It's kind of a timely question here. It's arisen because of the
bank. The bank of course is going on the north part of Outlot A and the
Strgar-Roscoe study basically says that long term, you really should be
looking at 78th Street as being 4 lane from Market Blvd. out to the edge of
downtown. Now that actually was a fairly near term improvement. They
wanted, basically they said you can have enough traffic to generate 4 lanes
plus turn lanes. East of that point it was if year. It was in the future.
It was something I think they said you should look at doing by the year
2000. It depended on the growth that might occur. 78th Street is already
designed basically to be two lanes in each direction and the improvement
project from this point to the west. The questionable stretch when we're
dealing with the bank is between Monterey and Market. One of the things
the bank wanted, and this drawing's a little bit wrong because basically
this is the way it looks right now. There's a right turn lane. There's a
thru lane and there's a left turn lane. The right turn lane's going to be
built now. So we'll have basically a 3 lane section through there. The
left turn lane is there now. It's just not shown on this drawing. The
bank, one of the things you should know is the bank wanted a median cut
over here. They wanted a left turn lane and we've clarified at recent
meetings, they're not looking for a full access, they would like to see
simply if you're on westbound 78th Street, there's a median cut that you
can turn left into the shopping center. You know my initial reaction was
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 18, 1991 -- Page 30
kind of two fold. Normally we don't want to have any more median cuts than
necessary. It impacts the landscaping. The turning movements are
dangerous and we don't want to introduce those where we don't have to. The
bank is fairly insistent on it and we wanted you to know about it. The
other side of the coin was though that we have a major shopping center.
This is not a 5,000 square foot vetrinary clinic or something like this.
This is a 100,000 square foot shopping center with several outlots that has
basically one real entrance down over here. If you're coming from some
areas, residential areas in Chanhassen and want to get into this site, it
may be more expedient to turn that way. We asked Strgar-Roscoe to look at
that and there's a report that they prepared and actually the bank
originally wanted to have another curb cut over here which we said
absolutely not but we had Strgar-Roscoe look at where it's safe to
introduce these things and their conclusion was, it's safe to do this.
This is one that could work but it assumes that you're going to have two
lanes in each direction plus turn lanes. Here's where it gets sticky.
Right now we don't have two lanes in each direction plus turn lanes. We
have only enough right-of-way to basically do what's there. What we're
proposing right now which is the right turn lane, the thru lane and the
left. We're looking at ultimately leaving enough right-of-way so that we
have two lanes going to the west on the north side. That we can do. I
mean that's just, we need a little more right-of-way and we can do that.
If we're going to introduce a second thru lane over here, there's not
sufficient right-of-way to do it. There's a need to take another 10 foot,
a 10 foot strip across the entire Market Square. The only reason you would
do this is if you assume, if there's an acceptance with the fact that two
lanes in each direction is required east of Market Blvd.. That's the long
range proposal in the Strgar-Ro~coe report but it's not a certainty. They
were quite clear that you needed the 2 lanes in each direction to the west.
To the east it was probably well, maybe you won't. Now is our chance to
get right-of-way I guess. If we want to bank it, we really need to make
the bank's plans right now conform because if we don't get it now, there's
going to be a bank building 25 feet back from the right-of-way line and
there's not going to be any room to put this in in the future. We've had
discussions in-house and it's a tough thing for us to really advise you
I'll let Don speak for himself. We had a meeting. I'm frankly not certain
that we'll, I mean the implication that we'll a second land or two full
lanes to feed this thing into because unless you have something to feed it
into across Market Blvd., it doesn't make sense to do this. It's tough for
me to visualize tearing that stuff up and putting that second lane in as
you're coming around the Dinner Theatre but it may happen eventually. I
guess we're looking for, and it's a tough question to ask but the bank is
going before the Planning Commission in 3 weeks and this is our shot to get
the right-of-way. In fact it also affects the Market Square plat. We
approved that plat. The Council approved that plat last year but it was
never filed so theoretically you can add a condition to clip another 10
feet off the top. We did bring in Todd Kristoferson from Amcon so he's
familiar with this. It's going to affect the site plan somewhat. I mean
you take 10 feet across the top, you can see how it starts to shoe horn in
these outlots a little bit. Setting this building in is a little tougher.
This building can probably move. The outlot, well the bank has the same
area. They just shift it 10 feet south and the remaining area that
Housing and Redevelopment Authority
July 18, 1991 - Page 31
Bloomberg has to sell is smaller. $o Don, what else should be added to
that?
Ashworth: The history of this is we have gone kind of back and forth and
as of 2 weeks ago when Paul and I were talking, I said I think we need to
go out after that 10 feet. They had recently met again with the bank
people and Paul said, well we've kind of concluded that we take and get the
3 lane condition in there. We can get the left and the thru and the right
and we can do that without requiring any additional land so I think we're
kind of lucky at this point. I said well wait a minute. There's going,
we'll need to look at another thru lane at some time in the future. Well,
you know really Strgar-Roscoe is saying not. That that whole section in
there probably wouldn't need it. I said, you know even though they're
saying that it probably will not be needed, the HRA has been so protective
of trying to make sure that we've got enough right-of-way to have two lanes
in both directions that I feel we've got to take this back to them at their
next meeting. If we allow this to go through, I think we really preclude
the ability to insure that that second lane goes through. And then I went
through with Paul some of the discussion that occurred as it dealt with the
Medical Art and to make sure that that was back far enough so that you
could have 2 lanes through that whole section. Again, I felt compelled to
ask Paul to be here to discuss the issue with you and try and get your
advice and guidance.
Bohn.' Once it's built on, that's it. You can't move it back.
Ashworth: Well understand the bank people are going to take and say, well
you know land's expensive out here. We don't think you're ever really
going to need that so we'd just as soon be able to build our facility up as
close to the walk area as possible. I mean they have kind of a neat little
plaza area.
Krauss: I've got a set of their plans here if anybody.
Chmiel: Wasn't that 10 foot ours before anyway? Wasn't that our
right-of-way?
Krauss: Don you're quite correct. That green dashed line is the original
right-of-way for 78th Street. Now the developers have asked us if we would
approve vacating that again. It hasn't been filed because the plat hasn't
been filed. We're essentially...you selling it to somebody else. So it
was all ours to begin with.
Workman: So the bank just wants a curb cut?
Krauss: No. See the bank's in the middle on this. I don't think the bank
cares whether we have 3 lanes or 4 because they're whole site plan...lay it
flat. Here on this plan, here's our right turn lane okay. Hers's our thru
lane and what he's not showing is actually a left turn lane. There's
enough room for this condition. And there's only one lane over here. The
only reason why this would make sense is if we anticipate that there's
going to be a second lane over here at some point in the future. And the
Housing and RedeveIopment Authority
~uiy ~8, ~99~ - Page 32
bank is squeezed in the middIe. The bank is buying x number of square feet
from Bloomberg or from the developer. By the way, this is an older version
of the site plan. They originaliy wanted a curb cut here. We said if
you're going to take this before the Planning Commission, you'll get thrown
out on your ear. Because this was a condition of the original PUD not to
do that. That's hazardous and they eliminated that but the entire bank
plan, I mean they're buying. Whatever they're buying. If they're buying
an acre, we go to the underlying developer of the shopping center and say
we're clipping 10 feet off the entire top, the bank plan just shifts 10
feet to the south. It doesn't hurt them as much as the developer. This is
the curb cut that they're anticipating coming in with that would have to be
approved by the City. This is the other one, the median break. And what
we're actually looking at here is this would be a left turn only and that
there would be some sort of a traffic diverter here so that you can only
come out this way and you can come in this way. So basically you would
have two lanes coming through here. One would be a right turn lane to the
shopping center.
Workman: Where you going to go on that split then? That split. That curb
cut there.
Krauss: This?
Workman: Median cut.
Krauss: Oh, I'm sorry. It's kind of rounded like that. I extended the
concrete too far. They would be coming in this way. Again, we can make
this fit. Had the plat been filed a year ago, year and a half ago when
this was approved, we would have been behind the 8 ball but it never was
and I think the Council could amend their condition that requires changing
of that to do it. We asked for a lot more details. It looks better than
this now. There's more, the dormers are a little more accentuated.
There's a number of things that are somewhat different. I just grabbed the
plan upstairs and got one of the older versions of it. One of the things
we like about this, and anyway we're shaving this corner a little more too.
That's one of the things that Todd touched on. To free up the bus movement
and stuff through there these corners are being shaved back. But what
they're doing is they're building a plaza on the corner add they've
actually got a fountain on the plaza and the plaza emerges with the
sidewalk so as you enter onto this corner, the bank building's set back
quite a ways and you have a public space on the corner which I think is a
nifty idea.
Robbins: All they have to do is just push everything back lO feet. That's
all it takes.
Gerhardt: Well again, where you're going to hear some hollering and stuff
may be from Bloomberg Companies because again, you're taking lO feet away
from them.
Robbins: No, we're not taking it. They never had it.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 33
Workman: Can the bank and the center survive without all this?
Robbins: Without the additional 10 feet.
Krauss: Well they clearly need the road to serve them. When we're looking
at putting a 4 lane road in on that side of town and Market...those are
clearly necessary for the wellbeing of the center.
Chmiel: What you're saying is extending from the west to east?
Krauss: Yeah.
Chmiel: From Market Blvd. west.
Krauss: If we went in and we took the 10 feet right now, this setback.
Workman: What's going to be here?
Krauss: That's parking. They're providing a 25 foot building setback from
the right-of-way. What would happen is if we reserve right-of-way, that
would wind up being 35 feet because it would be green until. I mean we
would not build this, you can't build this second lane, thru lane right now
because there's no place for it to go. $o basically you just have an
oversized right-of-way and some more green space that you're putting in
your back pocket until it is built.
Gerhardt: I don't know the exact feet but I think it's around 25-30 feet
is how far the Medical Arts is from the curb. To give you an example of
how, I mean you're talking another 2 story building and how close that will
be to the roadway.
Krauss: See this is actually further back from the curb than the Medical
Arts building because we're talking if we do this it will be 35 feet back
from the right-of-way and there's an 8 to lO foot boulevard so it's more
like 40-45 feet back.
Gerhardt: The reason why you're doing this is to allow for the second land
to come here. You've got your right turn lane and you only have one lane
going this way and a left turn lane. To get that two lane of traffic to
go through here, you need that other 10 feet.
Bohn: Which is what we did with the Medical Arts building when we bought
that property.
Gerhardt: For a right turn lane.
Workman: But the SRF report doesn't suggest 4 lanes.
Krauss: Well it does. It was very certain that we needed the 4 lanes from
here to the west in the near term. From here to the east.
Workman: That's from Kerber down? From Kerbe¥ down they suggested?
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 34
Krauss: No, it's from Market.
Ashworth: I don't think that there's a necessity to purchase it. I'm sure
that Clayton may very well be back in and say this is going to squelch
whatever and we'll have to deal with that at that point in time but I think
that if the NRA felt that was important. Make a motion to that effect so
we could insure that as this goes through the approval process, that that
in fact be on as a condition in getting the additional lO feet.
Chmiel: I would move that.
Bohn: Second. There is a motion.
Chmiel moved, Bohn seconded that the HRA authorize staff to include a
condition on the bank's plat for an additional l0 feet of right-of-way as
recommended for an additional lane of traffic. The motion is to be
included in the development contract for Market Square. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
Krauss: There may need to be a City Council action on that as well. I
need to ask Roger. As I read the ordinance, they had 30 days to file their
plat...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Workman: ...I knew July 2nd would be tough. Bernie Hanson, John Roebke
from Ebert., Roebke, CPA firm and Kevin McShane from the bank attended and
we discussed and I thought it was rather helpful because what it proved was
that you're kind of just scratching your head but all agreed that we should
have some more discussion with the business people on what we should do
down there. So if we can get that together.
Gerhardt: I put that in my report that we will be having a second meeting,
or third and fourth meeting with the business people to talk about the
roadway.
Chmiel: That's what I was going to suggest. Is get additional input from
the business people yet. You've had 3 and that's good but I'd to see a lot
more people provide their opinions.
Gerhardt: Paul, can you put that back on? We do have some concerns.
We've got West 78th Street detachment that is coming to Council to go out
to bid here in the near future and if you're going to be getting additional
2 lanes this way, I don't know if it's essential but it's important...this
second lane here in the near future, it's going to play a big role in how
this second lane as it is from Kerber and it goes out to CR 17 is going to
be laid out.
Chmiel: I don't know if that's going to necessitate having to have that
double land on 78th Street going west from Market Blvd. on up.
Gerhardt: Strgar's recommending that you do put it in.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 35
Chmiel: Yeah, but I don't see that need yet.
Workman: But acquiring the right-of-way. Do we have the right-of-way for
it?
Krauss: We may need to nibble a couple more feet on that block where this
plaza's being proposed. There's enough right-of-way for it to the west
because there's no median. The Strgar report though, the recommendation
is, that's something that I've long felt and they kind of confirmed that as
soon as the shopping center opens, the need will be there.
Workman: I spoke to Mr. Burdick who's obviously one of the more vocal
parties down there and he's concerned again about getting the project going
down there. But the idea of the 4 lanes, from him, the opinion I got from
him was that the idea of putting in 4 lanes now would justify delaying it.
At this point. He'd rather see it done now. All done now rather than
doing it later and redisrupting.
Gerhardt: That's what I'm saying here. I'd like to get some direction or
approval of the downtown study so we can start incorporating these into the
plans of the West 78th Street detachment. You know a lot of these
recommendations are what the businessmen had brought up. They wanted to
make sure we had essential right-of-way from what would be Kerber up to CR
17 for 4 lanes. There is enough right-of-way for that and it is planned
for 4 lanes but the segment that I'm concerned about would be between
Market and Kerber and getting that segment into a 4 lane section. And that
it matches with the West 78th Street detachment. If not, if you go ahead
with West 78th Street detachment, you're going to have to put some
improvements in that will have to be ripped out and done over as you do
that segment between Market and Kerber.
Bohn: In other words do it all at the same time?
Gerhardt: Well, it's going to be real difficult to see if you can really
get West 78th Street done this year. You're looking at'an award in August
and September timeframe and how much work can you really get done in that
period of time. And then you're going to have to go back in and rip some
of that back out.
Ashworth: I think it's difficult just from the verbal presentation that
Todd's gone through to really fully see what it is that we're talking
about. I guess what I would like to do is bring back at our next meeting
some initial design concepts for what would be immediately changed in the
downtown. What noses. What will be pulled back and what it will look like
for this particular section to move into a full 4 lane condition. And what
it will look like from Kerber Blvd. on out. So what you're doing then is
bringing back a visual image of what it is that Strgar has recommended.
Something that you can look at and say yeah. Okay. Go ahead and do that.
Chmiel: Maybe if you pull that Joint Powers Agreement together real quick,
you can get it on the agenda. Let's do that. I~d like to see that. I
really would.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 36
Workman: So we approved everything Ne need to approve?
Gerhardt: Right. Unless you want to give us direction to put the visuals
together.
Ashworth: I guess what I'd like to do is, I don't know if it needs a
motion but just agreement. 8ring back a map that shows all of these things
on there. What it is that you would want to move to the next step.
Workman: Well and that's maybe what we should wait for more input from the
downtown business community because that was really, what can we do? How
can we do it? What if we don't have right-of-way here? We don't have
right-of-way there? We need something here but can we and that was kind
of.
Gerhardt: I think it would have helped if we had had visuals for those
businessmen.
Chmiel: Yeah, that's right.
Workman: Why don't we do that?
Chmiel: Mr. Chairman, so moved that we do that.
Workman: Second.
Chmiel moved, Workman seconded that the HRA direct staff to prepare visual
renderings of possible Nest 78th Street configurations. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
CONSIDER CANCELLATION OF THE PURCHASE AGR££M~NT WITH TCNB, INC. AFTER
AUGUST 8, 1991 AND DISCUSS OPTIONS OF REMARKETING THE WEST 79TH STREET
PROPERTY.
Workman: I'd move approval of item 5.
Robbins: Second.
Workman moved, Robbing seconded that the HRA authorizes staff to cancel the
purchase agreement with TCNB if they are unable to close by the August 8,
1991 deadline. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Bohn: Any more discussion?
Ashworth: Mr. Chairman. You should be aware of the fact that in
contacting Dave Weir, informing him that we were considering doing this...
totally in the dark, although he should very well have known what we've
been expecting of him, we were informed by his attorney, Mr. Margoleis that
Mr. Weir is proposing to close on the property prior to the expiration
date. We have been in the process of updating and providing survey map,
etc.. I asked the City Attorney to send out whatever forms of letters, do
whatever work necessary supporting that position. I mean, not supporting
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 37
but moving that along because my number one fear is at this point in time
for Mr. Weir to come back in front of you and say gee, I would really like
another 6 or 12 months. There is no way that, I can't speak for this group
but I really do not think that that would be in any way considered. But if
you would state that you want to close on the property and then simply keep
trying to find reasons for why it can't actually occur. In other words we
didn't provide the survey. We didn't get up to date the whatever. I've
seen situations where a person's been able to effectively draw that out for
a long period of time. And what I've instructed the City Attorney is don't
get us caught in that game. Don't let this thing get drug into a 90, 180
day closing period all on the geise that this is going to be closed because
I don't think it will be.
Workman: Are they going ahead like they're going to be doing something?
Gerhardt: They're going ahead as if they want to close but they're going
to come up with a dozen and a half excuses why the City hasn't been able to
provide certain things that's laid out in that purchase agreement so they
can close. What we're doing right now is preparing everything so they
cannot come back with one thing and say why they can't close.
Ashworth: We don't know that any of that is true. We just simply want you
to be aware of the fact that we've seen that occur before and we're not
going to let that occur now.
Chmiel: Better to second guess than not guess at all.
Gerhardt: Maybe I was premature in looking at trying to remarket this
property. I would leave that until our August meeting to see if '
cancellation has occurred and not talk about any...remarketing it until we
have complete control of the site again.
APPROVAL OF BILLS.
Chmiel: I just have two questions Mr. Chairman. I like the way this thing
is formatted but when these are specifically addressed to Mr. Ashworth for
his travel and training. What did that entail on those check ~043411 and
~0435937 $159.74 and $63.86.
Ashworth: I can tell you in just a moment.
Workman: I was going to ask, what was the American Limosine Service?
Gerhardt: That was the bus tour on TH 5.
Chmiel: I just want to know what it's for. Not that I question his
integrity. I'd just like to know a little more.
Bohn: I have something that has nothing to do with the bills.
Gerhardt: Probably a variety of things.
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 38
Bohn: Has anybody looked at how pedestrians are going to cross TH 5 once
it's completed as far as pedestrians and people on bicycles? Are they
going to cross at those intersections?
Workman: We talked about a bridge overhead from...Htll to Amoco area. It's
high but expensive and tunnels were too unsafe and expensive and now that
TH 5's getting done we probably can't.
Chmiel: That's something we're going to have to look at.
Workman: Eden Prairie was going to do tunnels and they took them out.
Bohn: It was unsafe?
Chmiel: Yep. And they looked at overheads and that was too expensive.
You're talking roughly, you know pretty close to a million dollars.
Bohn: We're building a barrier between the north and the south with TH 5.
Ashworth: Alright, the $63.86. May 15th, Warren, Ashworth, Krauss. TH 5
TID one streetscape. This was the initial discussion in terms of that.
That whole area. The next one was a follow-up with was with Bill Moresh at
the University. Oh this was at the University there as well. Moresh,
Paul, 8arty Warner. We stopped and picked Barry up on the way down and
myself. TH 5 and then parking for above at the U of M. $4.50 for the
total $63.86. The other one, $159.74. That goes back even a longer period
of time. Meeting on February 15th. Holmes, City. Fiscal disparity
legislation. That was downtown Minneapolis. County Auditor TIP. There's
been a lot of work with them. I brought in their entire office. We went
through the existing TIO report. That was $39.47. Fred, Don, AVR
acquisition. That was back on February 25th. That was $14.00. 4/10,
Klingelhutz release HRA funds $16.00. TH 5 Improvement TIP. Parking and
Senior Housing Financing options. Oh, I went over to St. Paul. Met with
Kathy. I think it was Ethel. It's not the way I pronounced it for Todd
but that was $32.00.
Chmiel: Thank you. I just feel when you keep these for so long and the
City's working off your interest on your money. Probably those things
should be brought up on a monthly basis.
Ashworth: And I've got a billfold right now.
Workman: I know when I went out of town this past spring and I submitted a
hotel bill, there was a movie that I had watched. I think they charged me
twice because I fell asleep and I think I watched Kindergarten Cop or
something. But Don brought it up and I never intended that that would be a
part of the City's bill but he brought that up. He's very watchful of
those little things.
Ashworth: Well, I don't want to be in a position where somebody would say
that I included a liquor bill onto whatever or a movie type of thing. I
mean it's not worth it for $5.00...
Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting
July 18, 1991 - Page 39
Chmiel: No. I looked at that one for $150.00 something. $159.00. I
thought it was for a long period of time and the point I wanted to bring up
is hopefully we get them on a monthly so you don't work off the interest or
the City works off the interest of your money. I move approval of the
Bills.
Robbins: Second.
Chmiel moved, Robbins seconded to approve the HRA bills. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Norkman moved, Robbins seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was ad3ourned.
Submitted by Don Ashworth
Executive Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim