1990 05 07CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
HOUSING AND REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY
SPECIAL JOINT MEETING
MAY 7, 1990
Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilwoman Dimler, Councilman
Workman, and Councilman Johnson
COUNCIL MEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Boyt
HRA MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Bohn, Charlie Robbins and Clark Horn
HRA MEMBERS ABSENT: cliff whitehill
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Executive Director/City Mananger, Todd
Gerhardt, Asst. Executive Director/Asst. City Manager, Gary Warren, City
Engineer and Fred Hoisington, Consultant
Mayor Chmiel welcomed the public to the Public Hearing of the Housing and
Redevelopment Authority and Chanhassen City Council.
Don Ashworth outlined the activites that the Housing and
Redevelopment Authority has been involved with in regards to the
redevelopment of the downtown and gave an outlined of the agenda for the
evening's meeting.
Fred Hoisington showed a slide presentation of the downtown area prior to
and during it's redevelopment.
Don Ashworth then explained the Tax Increment Financing and how it relates
to the redevelopment of downtown. The following is the verbatim question
and answers from the public, Council and HRA members:
Councilwoman Dimler: Don, could you tell me who makes the decision which
project is feasible and which one isn't and what criteria do you use to
make that decision?
Don Ashworth: The underlying decision comes as a part of the redevelopment
plan itself. And the HRA then is an implementing body. As I see tonight's
meeting, it is really one of the City Council saying that there's been some
question in the past as to who is making this decision and who isn't and a
decision that the Council wants to take a more active role to insure that
decisions such as the bank are either made by the Council or at least in a
joint fashion with the HRA. Did I answer the question?
Councilwoman Dimler: What criteria did you use to say the Hanson project
would not be feasible on this site and the bank would?
Don Ashworth: The Hanson project was a little more involved than Mary Ann
had discussed. They in addition to needing the entire piece of ground,
which they at one time had hoped to either condominiumize or to be able to
lease a portion of a larger structure out to others and then they would
have one part of the property themselves. Well as financing went along,
City Council/HRA Joint Meeting
May ?, 1990 - PaGe 2
they were not able to really put together that larger facility and look to
a much smaller structure in that process but still wanted the Housing and
Redevelopment Authority to provide the entire piece of land. In addition,
as a part of their own financial analysis, it appeared as though they
needed an additional, and if I remember correctly it was like $70,000.00 or
$80,000.00 from the HRA in addition to what had been agreed to date to make
that project work for them. At that point in time the HRA said this simply
does not make any financial sense.
Councilwoman Dimler: Did we not give them, the bank the land?
Don Ashworth: Eventually the property, at that point in time, I'm trying
to remember. Anyway, the decision by the HRA, the HRA had acquired all of
the parcels down there which included Lots 8, 7, 6 and 5 and the decision
was made that we should look to one larger development for the entire
parcel rather than trying to break the thing up. As it turned out, the
three developers who came before the HRA, two out of the three each wanted
to break the parcel and have two separate developments on them but they
were going to coordinate that development to insure that it would be
aesthetically and planning wise compatible.
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess the reason I'm raising these questions is
because one of the major concerns that I have is that we treat the
applicants equally and fairly. And that we don't do something for one that
we wouldn't do for the other.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Yes, sir. Please state your name and your address.
Bill Jacobson: I'm Bill Jacobson. I'm one of the owners of the West
Village Townhouses across the street and to the north. I'd be interested
in knowing what the status is of the remainder of West Village Heights.
I know what the overall plan was to be and I haven't heard anything about
that for the last year or so.
Don Ashworth: You're talking about the development to the west of yours
which would be.
Bill Jacobson: And south all the way down to 78th Street. The whole West
Village Heights area.
Don Ashworth: Aren't you also talking about, who's the other developer?
Gary Warren: Immediately to the west is Cenvesco with Oak View Heights.
Don Ashworth: Okay. Cenvesco is a residential development. They've been
back'and forth to the Planning Commission. Most of the plans that they
have brought forward have had a number of problems with those and the
planning Commission, Council, I don't think the HRA really has been that
involved with them but have been very concerned with the density that those
facilities have had associated with that development. That's Dean 3ohnson.
Mayor Chmiel: Do you happen to have a map showing some of these areas that
you're talking about so people might be a little more.
City Council/HRA 3oint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Page 3
Don Ashworth: Fred, do we have anything? I know we have the area but I
don't know if we have any buildings.
Fred Hoisington: It's up in this area north of We~t 78th Street and west
of Kerber.
Don Ashworth: Anyway, the property is still planned for higher density
residential on the north half of the parcel of which Mr. 3acobson has
developed the most eastern portion. To the south of that has been proposed
as commercial. I thought I had seen Charlie James. I don't know if you
wish to speak to that issue or not. Mr. 3ames owned all of the parcel
prior to the time that he sold the northeast portion to Mr. 3acobson and
the northwest portion to Cenvesco.
Charlie James: Well basically we've been in a catch-21 out at our end of
town too. We had a development contract with the City that called for West
78th Street to be put in last year and we graded in preparation for that
and it didn't happen. It's probably just as well given the uncertainty
right now but we're also part of this Target scenario, however that may
shake out. It was my observation when we first came in, zoned the land,
that there was no place in the downtown of Chanhassen that was large enough
for the type of facilities that most retailers are building today and as a
consequence we platted the property in exact conformance with the
comprehensive plan and with what the City said at that time that they
wanted to see on that parcel and because of the relocation, the proposed
relocation of West 78th Street that was going to be needed with the TH 5
project, we ended up with the deepest portion of our property at the east
end. So how that plat was determined in the beginning and how we came up
with a rather unusual shape for that lot was that we laid out an 85,000
square foot discount store and a 33,000 square foot supermarket and some
shops inbetween and had a site plan that would work and then we sort of
drew the plat lines around it so we've been sort of sitting in the
background for a number of years and our company is exclusively retail
developers and most everything we do involves grocery store or discount
' stores. We did 7 of them last year in 3 different states. So we were just
content to sit back and wait for the situation to ripen. I had no idea, we
were contacted by the people at Target as well and there was a third party
that sort of injected themselves into the situation and it was proposing
that the City would condemn portions of my property and Mr. Burdick's
property and some other people's property. It came as a shock to me
because we felt that we had a site that was zoned and big enough and ready
to go on the other side of the street and we have submitted 3 drawings to
Target showing them in fact that their project will fit on our property.
We had suggested to them that they allow the Market Square project to go
ahead in it's present form and I've most recently talked to 3ohn Cranky at
Super Value who I know personally as well as in a business capacity and
he's the retail advisor, as I understand it from Mr. Cooper and he tells me
that there's no way Target's going to build a Cub store out here. That
they're going to build a Cub store right across the street from the Target
in Eden Prairie. Just to the north of Eden Prairie Center there and in the
foreseeable future there isn't going to be a Target store here so we still
are hopeful that when the dust settles on this whole thing, we think that
City Council/HRA 3oint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Page 4
the best scenario would be for Target to go on the 13 acre tract that we
have that's zoned and ready to go and it would probably require less from
the City in tax increment financing to make that a reality than assembling
this big tract of land on the other side of the street and putting in all
the infrastructure and everything that would be required for that. So I'd
said they jury is still out on this whole thing. I too have been down to
see Target and know some of the people down there and I think maybe one of
the reasons that they haven't been forth coming lately is I think they're
in the process of reconsidering this whole situation here. So as far as
out little strip center out on the west there, just an update on that.
We'd still like to build that project. Again, I was under the impression
that if Target went in that there'd be additional right-of-way required out
there to handle the traffic and that that would once again force us into
perhaps a replat out there but having gone through two very unpleasant and
very painful situations in Inver Grove Heights and Eagan where we had some
major highway improvement going on simultaneous with two strip centers that
we did, we've vowed we'd never do that again so I guess we want to see
what's going to happen with West 78th Street and what's going to happen
with Target and then we fully intend to proceed with the projects here in
Chanhassen.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Charlie Robbins: Charlie, do you really think Target's serious to be here?
Do you think they're serious about coming here?
Charlie 3ames: Yes I do. This is one of 10 stores that they're working on
in the Twin Cities that's sort of, I don't agree with it but I think that
they're serious about it. We've done a number of stores. Last year I did
3 stores for Wal-Mart which we developed and leased to them and we have a
long standing relationship with them and I've talked to them about coming
into Chanhassen here and I think that's Target's biggest fear. I think
it's this mentality of like the pioneers like circling the wagons when the
indians are attacking and so what Target is doing is they're circling the
Twin Cities with 10 stores in the outer rings and they're going to go
to Plymouth and Cottage Grove and Woodbury and Chanhassen and what were
some of the other ones. Well they're under construction in Shoreview,
White Bear Lake and this is all part of a big strategy to prevent losing
market shares to Wal-Mart. So I think that they do have some interest out
in this area because I think they perceive that they're vulnerable. If you
go into the Eden Prairie Center now, you'll see everybody's in there from
Young America and Cologne and all those towns out that way. They're in the
Target in there and I think this would be a stopper and I think the two can
co-exist. As Eden Prairie continues to grow, I think that Target store
will serve that market just as they had the store in Bloomington and then
they built the Southdale store very close to that. So I think in the long
range this would be a good location for Target and I think it'd be good for
Chanhassen to insure the long term viability of all the businesses in
Chanhassen to have that sort of a draw because as someone here said
earlier, they tend to draw from many more miles than some of the other
businesses.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you.
City Council/HRA 3oint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Page 5
Jim Bohn: Don, I've been on the HRA for 10 years and the HRA has never
been involved with the realignment of 78th Street. When it gets past
Kerber Blvd.. I've never heard about his project with that discount store
or Grocery store in there.
Councilman Workman: Mr. James has information from Target and I think Gary
Cooper has information from Target and Brad does and everybody else does
and yet this board shows up and the Mayor show at 8:00 on a Friday morning.
I would say they're not too serious and they'd better start talking to us
too and letting us know because circling their wagons or whatever, they're
not talking to a player in this thing that want to see something happen for
Bernie Hanson's sake and everything else. I'm not going to worry myself
with Target's market share but I am going to worry myself with how this
downtown is going to pan out for the people we do have here. For somebody
to say they're going to show up for a meeting with me at 8:00 a.m. when
I have better things to do and they don't show up, I think they'd better
'get a new tactic.
Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else?
Resident: I heard the same thing. If Target don't go in here, Wal-Mart
will...
Mayor Chmiel: That's very much of a potential and I think that's why
Target is trying to locate as many facilities within the metro area as they
possibly can to keep them out. That's just my own view of it. Don, you
were going to say something?
Don Ashworth: Well just in response to Commissioner Bohn's point. That is
that Mr. James did get approval for a site plan for a convenience center.
That did not come back to the HRA to the best of my knowledge. Mr. 3ames
was interested in participating in the incentive pro'gram as it deals with
the reduction of special assessments but those really have never come into
place. As he notes 78th Street did not go forward. The plan for the
development has been put on hold. That's the only reason it never went
back to the HRA.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thank you.
Craig Harrington: Craig Harrington. I'm a resident of Chanhassen and just
going to make this kind of brief. First of all I appreciated the slide
presentation. I thought it was really interesting and really see the kind
of progress that's been made in Chanhassen. Also, I appreciate this
opportunity to express my views. Also see a lot of positive things
happening in Chanhassen as far as with the Council and the HRA has been
doing. Not all things I agree with but I think the general scope of things
are headed in the right direction. The only thing that I wanted to bring
up to the Council today as well as to the HRA is that I would like to see,
and I don't know how exactly you go about this but I'd like to see the
possibility of having the HRA being an elected body. How that's exactly
accomplished but I'd like to see something that is where members of the HRA
are directly responsible to or accountable to the public in some sort of
City Council/HRA 3oint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Page 6
way. I think Don's done a very good job and is very knowledgeable on these
things. Of course he's on staff here at the City. Always will have his
input whether he wants to run for election, I don't know but I think and I
don't know if the City Council exactly wants to take on this extra burden
either but that's my view and my opinion and I just wanted to thank you for
the opportunity to express it.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you very much. Yeah Tom.
Councilman Workman: I brought up the point originally to look into the
option of, and I'll back up even further because I'm also a member of the
HRA and member of the City Council which makes me kind of a unique and
somewhat crazy person I guess. And I appreciate being on both because I'm
just nosy enough to want to know everything that's going on but you receive
a lot of concerns in the City about what's going on. Target's a good
example of should we have it or shouldn't we have it and we have a memo
before us tonight from some citizens who say they don't want it. I've
heard a lot of people that say they really want it but generally what, and
the reason I brought up should the City Council also be the HRA or should
they be elected was because the HRA sort of operates, their meetings are by
no means a secret from anybody but people don't get real excited about
what's going on generally. It's fairly technical information and it's
complicated and it probably impacts things in downtown more than the City
Council. But I brought up whether or not that accountability should be
built in there somehow. It's my understanding that an HRA really can't be
an elected body by State Statute. But the point I want to clear up is, I
brought this point up and the newspapers did a good job of talking about it
but I think what they said was, is that I think we should have the City
Council become the HRA. My point was, we should look at that possibility
as one possibility and not the possibility. I think I never intended to
tell the folks who have served on the HRA now and in the past that they're
doing a miserable job and I'd like to see them all jump in the lake or
something because they've done a lot of work and put in a lot of time and I
think that minor variation on what I said maybe gave some people the
indication that's how I felt and it wasn't. I want to clear that up.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thank you Tom. Yes sir.
Don McCarvil: Good evening Mr. Mayor and Council members and HRA. I'm
Don McCarvil from Country Cleaning here in town. I also appreciate the
opportunity to come and speak briefly about what in my case is a very small
issue but I have noticed as I started, well even last week I went to a
meeting. The thing I did notice is that there aren't many of us around
that were here when this all started. I guess that's one of the points
that I'd like to make. Of the businesses that were on main street 15 years
ago, Bernie was there, there aren't many of us left. Now he's having
problems with his situation and I've kind of heard about it and I don't
know how he can solve it. My problem is just a rather insignificant one
but a number of years ago the City was looking to buy my property and
expand some of the buildings that are there now. They decided not to go
ahead with it because of the cost of the land and the building. At that
same time of course I thought they were going ahead and had bought another
piece of property in town but have decided to settle in where I was and I'd
City Council/HRA Joint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Page 7
taave to wait and see what happened in town. But now the development is
going to be taking some of my property where it's at and I guess that was,
I don't know, I can't say it's a complaint because it doesn't do any good
but when the City is taking property, they're going to take it either way.
You can complain or talk about it or whatever but they are still going to
go ahead and take the property. 8ut as I originally started out to say
then, there was a number of us that were on the street originally years ago
and there aren't many of us left and they're starting to chip away at the
last of us. I guess that's really all I have to say. I do have the plats
that are particular to my particular situation. I had to have my lawyer
request them from the lawyer that's working on it this morning because I
did not have those in my hands so I'd even know what I was talking about
but if anybody would be interested I'd be glad to discuss that with them.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you Don. Jim, I think you had your hand up.
Jim Burdick: I just wanted to bring up a couple of points. I guess first
of all I'd better say good evening and glad to be here. I pretty well
agree with what Charlie 3ames has said. And as far as Target, whether it's
largely on my property and on Charlie James', either way is okay with me.
I'll cooperate if they want to be on the south side of 78th Street but
quite frankly I'd just as soon have them, if they come on the north side.
And quite frankly I'd just as soon as Wal-Mart instead of Target too. And
what's been holding it up down there, I've been before this governing body
2,3 and 4 years ago with...very interested but what's holding up from, well
let's say the lonsome pine tree on 78th Street on west is moving 78th
Street. First it was the fear of the unknown and then it was fear of it
being torn up so people couldn't get in and now it's TM 5 moving so slowly.
All of you have helped. All of you have encouraged TM 5 to be built for
the past 10 years just like I have and nearly everyone else here. But
that's the big stumbling block down there. We had somebody quite hot a
couple of years ago and when the partners said well, what's going to happen
to TM 5...
(There was a tape change during Mr. Burdick's comments.)
Mayor Chmiel: Al? Would you like to come up? Maybe you'd like to take a
few of those things down so he can get close to the mic.
A1Klingelhutz: I'm A1Klingelhutz and I'm a Carver County Commissioner.
I'm the liason person for the Carver Couoty Library system and your fort
project really stirred some interest in me Don. It looked to me like, and
I really appreciate the fact that Chanhassen gave more space for the
library. The State says we're supposed to have so many square feet per
person in the municaplity of library space and we're just a bit over half
that space now that the State does recommend. I think we're at .7 per
person, square feet and the State is recommending 3 square feet per person..
I very much like the idea of building a separate library building and I
think the Town Square area is an ideal spot for it. I know that it's going
to take a lot of dollars to build it. I'm kind of thinking of Chaska
building a new community center out of tax increment funds which will
normally come out of the general revenue, tax obligation bonds. I really
believe that what's been happening in Chanhassen, many of our areas are in
City Council/HRA Joint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Page 8
the tax increment district. A lot of our tax base is in there now. That
something should be done to help the general population to alleviate some
of the taxes that are going to have to come when the library building is
going to have to be built by the City of Chanhassen if they want to keep
educating their children and keeping people and the residents of Chanhassen
well informed with what a library can do. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiet: Maybe we can get some money from the County.
A1Klingelhutz: The County does staff the libraries in all the
municipalities in Carver County and that is Carver County funds. We do
supply the books and we do most of the interior work in the libraries as
far as shelving and things like that.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thanks.
comments? Jan.
Anyone else? Anyone else have any
Jan Lash: Hi. My name is Jan Lash and I live at 6850 Utica Lane. I'm not
a developer and I don't own a big chunk of commercial property in town and
I'm not an architect and I'm not a designer. I'm just a lowly citizen who
moved here about 13 years ago into what architects and designers may have
thought looked like kind of a seedy little ~own with a bunch of funky
little buildings but I thought it was cute and quaint and it attracted me
and my husband and I said they're going to have to take us out of here on
gernies. Never in my wildest dreams did I envision some of the changes
that have happened in this town and I certainly never envisioned a Target
or a Wal-Mart moving up the street from my home. I was born and raised in
Minneapolis and I moved out to Chanhassen to get away from the hussle and
the bussle of the big city. I'm very distraught to think that this is now
moving into this town and I realize we cannot stop progress and there will
be changes but I think that we need to stop and give serious consideration
to the residents who have lived here a long time. What attracted us
originally and the businesses that were here and provided us with the
service that they did such as Pauly's, Bernie, Chuck the phamacists, the
dry cleaners. They basically provided us with the services that we needed
close to home and I feel real sorry for a lot of them now because I think
they're basically being forced out of business. And I've heard several of
them speak tonight and that's just confirming my fears. I've seen Chuck
move from the Kenny's area where he was into a much smaller space and now
with the new Market Square thing coming in there's going to be I think a
Snyder's or some large drug store chain coming in and I just can't imagine
how some of those small businesses are ever going to be able to survive. I
guess my heart goes out to them and to the residents who have been here and
why we moved here. I don't have a problem with tax increment financing. I
think that's great to lure industry and business to town. We need that to
help our tax base. What I'm having a problem with is how the money that
the HRA is getting is being spent. I agree with a couple other comments
that I think there needs to be some changes or some options available. I
don't know that I specifically favor the City Council being the HRA. I
think that seems like it's an awful lot of power to a few people but if the
HRA could be an elected body or if they were an appointed body who did not
have the final say but was similar to the other commissions to the City and
then the City Council would have the final say, I think there would be more
City Council/HRA Joint Meeting
May 7, i990 - Page 9
accountability as to how the funds are spent. And I guess my question, I
should have said this before we moved on to the Pauly's site or number 6.
Why did the City acquire Pauly's and the Pony?
Don Ashworth: Both of those acquisitions occurred, as we were going
through the condemnation process for the acquisition...the board, the one
that was way on the bottom. Really two separate issues but the acquisition
for the pony property. This property here actually went all the way on
down almost to the railroad tracks so as a part of this road construction,
the City ended up acquiring most of the parcels. The property owner as we
went through that condemnation really made it clear that he would, the bar
business was not really what he was interested in staying into. He was
looking into different endeavors and is there a way through that
condemnation that the City could actually carry out the acquisition of the
entire business. Which is what we did. So I mean it was really by his own
choice. His own request back over to the City to carry on that
acquisition.
3an Lash: Is this the Pony?
Don Ashworth: Right.
Jan Lash: But not Pauly's.
Don Ashworth: Not Pauly's. Pauly's was a different situation in that as a
part of that acquisition, and again it goes back through the whole court
process but Mr. Pauly felt very strong that as a part of this overall
acquisition or the redevelopment process that the City was going through
that there would be a loss of business payment associated for his
particular business. More particularly, the liquor store operations and
that entire acquisition is really premised on a difference of opinion
between the City and Mr. Pauly as to whether or not relocation or loss of
business payments would be made as a part of the final... Are you
following this? So in other words, here is the parcel itself. That parcel
also and down into this area does not go as deep as the other one but the
City did have to acquire a portion of his property. In going through the
court process, the position that was presented was that the City owned
Mr. Pauly more than just the value of the land in the rear. The City could
also be required to make a payment for loss of business associated with the
liquor store. The Court basically ruled in the City's favor saying that
the City was not required and the court would not consider loss of business
payments as part of any type of a settlement. At that point in time
Mr. Pauly came back to the City saying is there a way that we can take and
work out an arrangement whereby the City would purchase this property but
allow him to stay in there for upwards of a 4 year period of time. And so
again...really is a decision by the owner Mr. Pauly to have the City carry
that out. I should temper that with the fact that his number one
preference would have been simply to be able to receive a loss of business
payment but again the Court did not rule in that direction.
Councilman Workman: Don if I could maybe, I'm not sure if your answered
3an's question quite the way she wanted. But there was the movement of the
road. Ne moved the old City Hall in the middle of Frontier Trail and we
City Council/HRA Joint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Page lO
did an awful lot of other things. Maybe what she's trying to get at is why
did, and you were pointing at the Pony building I believe.
Don Ashworth: I was trying to point at the Pauly's.
Councilman Workman: Okay, why like any other situation, did we have to go
after him and how did that all pan out that he would move? Was it a domino
affect? We ended up at the Pony and we took some of the Pony property
because of the new TH lO1/West 78th. It kind of all didn't fit in the plan
or why isn't Pauly's still in business or going to still be in business?
Don Ashworth: Well, maybe if I begin again. The initial plan as approved
by the Council, the HRA, did not require the taking of those 3 buildings.
The 3 buildings could have stayed. The bars could have stayed in place.
As we went into the actual acquisition itself, the Pony's is basically the
one that came back to the City saying our business is down, and part of
that they were saying because of the relocated streets, we've taken away
parking and other types of things but anyway we would like the City, HRA to
purchase the property. Mr. Pauly was really in the same type of a
position. Mr. Pauly felt that with the changed street conditions, that his
ability to operate and off store liquor store was very much impaired by the
new road configuration, etc.. And again, that is where he had been looking
to a loss of business payment. As the court process went through and it
basically came out that that would not be a part of any final settlement,
Mr. Pauly came back basically with the same type of request. Well what can
you do in terms of a total acquisition of our property.
3an Lash: So basically what it boils down to is, I mean this is what I
thought originally and when I cut through all of that it sounds like the
City basically ran them out of business. And they were trying to cut a
deal to get some money so they can get out and have some money instead of
being able to keep their business. I mean if it goes back to the routing
of the road, why does the road have to be routed so that it disrupts the
business of the old time businesses? I guess what I'm saying is when these
plans are made out, you can't always just look at what looks nice and what
the architects think is going to be a beautiful project in the end.
think there needs to be consideration made to the businesses that are
already in town that have kind of served us. Let's make it nice yeah for
new businesses to come in but who's going to want to come in if they think
10 years down the road the City's going to run them out of business or 50
years down the road, if we want to talk about Pauly's. They've been here,
and I'm not speaking for Pauly's. They didn't hire me to come up here or
anything but it's the one that we're talking about right now and basically
it's just kind of summing up my whole feeling about what's going on
downtown and I think what it takes is a lot of these kind of things to
catch people's attention and I think the redevelopment of downtown,
specifically main street, has caught the attention of a lot of people and
I'm glad to see that these meetings are open to the public so we will have
some input into these decisions and then there maybe won't be so-many sour
grapes after it's already all done. Thank you.
Councilwoman Dimler: Mr. Mayor, may I make a comment?
City Council/HRA 3oint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Page l~
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, go ahead Ursula.
Councilwoman Dimler: I've heard it here tonight and Jan mentioned it too.
Twice it's been brought up about the Council becoming the HRA and I
guess I'd like to just make a clarifioation on that. Jan mentioned that
that gives one body a lot of power and I guess I'd like to say it gives one
body a lot of service. I think all us feel here that we don't necessarily
want to be in a position of power but we are serving the public and so for
that reason too, I'm not real sure whether I want to give that extra
service. I'm not speaking in favor of that but the point is that somebody
has to be accountable and the Council ultimately is accountable anyway. So
basically what's happening is that we're accountable for decisions that
we're not making. We do have some input but we aren't choosing which
businesses are being approved or seem to be feasible. We're not in on that
process. All we get to do is review the site plans and those types of
things so I guess just to clarify that it's a lot of service and also that
we are ultimately responsible anyway.
Clark Horn: Can I comment Don?
Mayor Chmiel: Sure, go ahead Clark.
Clark Horn: I'd like to respond to a couple of Jan's statements. First of
all, before we went through this downtown project we held meetings with all
of the downtown businesses. We had a series of get togethers with them
where we reviewed plans. The ultimate plan was the result of 3 or 4 public
meetings with the business community. There was never any statement made
during any of those sessions that this plan would put anybody out of
business. This plan was made as a result of that. Now if some of the
economic realities of developing anything or that you get a higher value to
your property and the necessity of part of that is if your business doesn't
grow, it's very difficult to stay the same size you were because your
square footage gets much higher in that kind of a situation. But those
hearings were held. Actually we didn't call them hearings, we called them
get togethers and information gathering sessions with the business
community happened before this plan was approved. The other thing on
accountability is the HRA is accountable to the City Council just like any
of the other commissions. The HRA is appointed by the City Council. We
serve at the City Council's request. I think whether you have an HRA as a
separate body is something that each City can decide and I was on the
Council at the time and I was also the HRA member similar to what Tom is
now and that was always a question that came up. Should the HRA and the
Council be the same and there are pros and cons to doing that. It's still
a question in my mind. I haven't formed an opinion as to what works best.
As Ursula said, there are a lot of extra things you have to do if you're
going to do both jobs and either job is tough enough. To give somebody
both jobs is kind of tough and Tom I think can attest to that and I can
attest to that. Pat Swenson was on the Council and the HRA. The important
thing is is that there is Council representation on the HRA and we had a
gap, a lapse in time where we didn't have a Council person on the HRA and I
think that's wrong. There always has to be somebody on there. I was
really happy to see Tom come on and I think he's done a good job
representing the Council to the HRA and the HRA to the Council.
City Council/HRA 3oint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Page 12
3ar, Lash: But you guys ultimately have the power to allocate funds as
opposed to other appointed commissions. They just make recommendations to
the Council.
Clark Horn: We review programs. When it comes to issuing bonds and
everything, that all has to come from the Council. We cannot issue bonds.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any further discussion?
Don McCarvil: I'd like to add just a little insight into this what... A
little further insight into a little bit of the history. Yes,. there were a
number of meetings back then and we were shown what was being done. There
wasn't a lot of input on the businesses part but we were shown a number of
plans and we did go to a number of those meetings. None of those plans
ever transpired anyway. Those plats that we saw 10 years ago didn't happen
anyway so eventually a lot of us stopped coming to the meetings because
whatever we saw didn't happen.
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks. Hopefully that's a good point for everybody to take
note of because of these hearings, is that where it seems like it might
even discourage people to stay away. Keep showing up. The input's needed.
These chairs have to be full in order for us to get direction as to what
you're really looking for. If we don't have the people's input, we move on
our own but I like to get that input as much as we possibly can. I think
that's one of the reasons that we've had this particular meeting and we
will have additional meetings as we progress through the downtown
development and we welcome. I know I do and the rest of the Council does,
welcome your input to what's being proposed and what's being discussed. So
with that, if there is no one else that would like to say something. Todd,
did you want to say something?
Todd Gerhardt: Todd Gerhardt, Assistant City Manager. As one of my roles
for staff I had to work with the existing businesses in town before the
redevelopment was to occur and I'd just like to name off a few of those
businesses that still exist in town and I think we've done a very good job
in keeping those businesses. You've got the bait shop that has moved down
onto West 79th Street. I'm just going to work my way down West 78th and
down towards the east. You've got Staush, the boat.repair, fiberglass
repair. He is down on West 79th Street. You have Scotty's Auto Repair who
was next to Staush. He is also down on West 79th Street. You have
Hendrickson Dry Wall who built a brand new building in the industrial park.
Took advantage of the HRA's program there. Working with Bernie and I'm
trying to think of all the people. Hooked on Classics moved back behind
the Frontier Lumber, old building. And Chan Automotive is in the
industrial park. Working with the two businesses in the Frontier Belle,
Southwest Music is trying to find space and Frontier Belle Beauty Salon is
trying to make a decision on do they want to work part time or full time
and we've looked at alternative spaces in town for them also. I just
wanted to make sure everybody knew that businesses haven't left the
community and that some are still here. Most of them are here.
City Council/HRA Joint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Pa~e 19
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thanks. If there are no further discussions on this,
as I say I want to thank you for coming out and we really appreciate your
input. Hopefully this will give us some direction as to what to look for
and to gee what we can move on to accommodate some of the people within the
community. $o again, thank you very much. Appreciate your input.
Councilman 3ohnson: Don, on area 6 is there anything that staff needs at
this time? What our feelings are on area 6 and whatever? I kind of agree
with A1 a little bit there personally on area 6. I'd like to see the
library and my other thought, which everybody keeps hearing from me is the
senior center. That seems like a natural thing to go together there is to
put this senior center and some community rooms, meeting rooms. Some kind
of community activies there along with the library. If we can figure out
how to utilize TIF to do that. That'd be a great utilization.
Mayor Chmiel: I think that's something we have to look at because of the
cost aspect as to what we're buying and what we're purchasing and to see
what is best situated'for there and I don't know if we're in a position at
this particular time to even come up with any recommendations or
suggestions. I think this has to be looked at a little more so than what
we've done just this evening.
Councilman 3ohnson: Absolutely but that's one of the options that I favor
and I know that that's a money loser in the way it goes we'd have to draw
on tax increment from some other part of town.
Mayor Chmiel: You need spaces for senior citizens too, I agree. You bet.
Councilman 3ohnson: As you get closer, I'm sure.
Mayor Chmiel: Oh, I'm getting there. I'm there already.
Councilman 3ohnson: Did you return your senior citizen survey?
Resident: Don't forget the wheelchair and the handicapped people. They
have to have access. I'm thinking of the apartment building behind us.
They want 503 senior citizens. Hey, they have to have easy access to that.
I am 100~ in favor of a library. I think it's great.
glroy Williams: Parking has to be 2 feet wider than a regular one. And
I just forgot one building. The old City Hall, they have no ramp. Two
steps.
Councilman Workman: I guess the reason I guess I'd like this process to be
open the way we have it here tonight, is because of the question and I'm
not sure that we still have answered sort of this question. I think I know
the answer and I'll keep it to myself but for members of the community and
why we need to have a public hearing in regards to basically the downtown
situation is why did we have to do it? Or why did we do it or why are we
going to continue to do it and how far as we going to do it and that's
where the public opinion kind of sways in between we should never have
started and we should keep going to Target. So we have such a vast array
City Council/HRA Joint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - ga~e 14
of opinions from people who, I grew up in the community just to the
southwest and I remember when, I think you could tie a horse up downtown
and there was a dirt road going through there and I don't think they made
Polaris ),et but I always remember that, the feeling always was, I didn't
even know what a City Manager wam but I knew that they wouldn't, that they
weren't allowing this development up here. There was kind of a lock out
and a freeze out on this development and now it's kind of coming and it's
starting to come and we got a hot shot city manager and he's got a
remarkable mind for doing a lot of this stuff and Don can take a lot of
credit and he takes a lot of heat for doing what he's done. But I think
these public hearings are good for deciding, helping the Council and the
HRA decide how much farther we should go. I don't think anybody agrees
that we should 9o back to where we were 10 years ago with some leaky gas
stations and other but the question of why do we need to increase the
valuations and make our downtown a solid downtown and a good looking place
and everything else with amenities and other factors, but rather a downtown
that the community can be proud of because they can become very negative
feelings towards condemnations and things that were... Polaris is older
than me I guess but anyway. And one of the reasons why I wanted this
public hearing was because people get a little frustrated with an old
business getting thrown out of town and the perceptions of how that looks
and road expansions and traffic and bow's it going to affect my
neighborhood and everything else and these are growing pains that people
want to have a little bit more to do with the decisions so that they can be
proud of the community that none of us are leaving. That we're all staying
here. We can't leave and we signed that agreement when we bought our
house. And so you want to be proud of it. Everywhere I go I Ditch the
City. I'm always saying come on and build a house out in Chanhassen or a
business or something and so that everybody can be proud of it, everybody
should be allowed to help in a little better fashion to make the decisions
and get a little piece and we can't please everybody obviously but so that
we don't get the old part of town nervous about what's going on with what
the new people in town want to do as a city and a community. As I drove by
the other night, that building which we were all so confounded about. How
did that building get so darn close to the road. They painted the thing.
It's lit up. It looked magnificent. I couldn't believe it. I mean much
better than I had been driving by it so maybe things are taking shape and
we're not moving that building but we have to make sure that people are
comfortable with it.
Elroy Williams: We have a Catholic school with no signs at an
intersection. No stop signs down at what is it, 76th Street or Chan View.
Don't the kids deserve a stop sign of some kind at a busy intersection?
Mayor Chmiel: I agree. I agree with that position.
Elroy t4illiams: They have one up at the public school.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, the highway department I think has jurisdiction on TH
101 there.
Elroy Williams: Yeah, but we had 4 of them before. Now we've got nothing.
We ain't even got one down where the kids cross. That don't make sense. I
City Council/HRA Joint Meeting
May 7, 1990 - Pa~e 15
wouldn't even cross up to Go over to Pauly's with a wheelchair. No way.
Councilman Johnson: We have taken some action in that we've asked the
State to reroute TH 101 so it does not run past a Grade school and two
churches and our business center here. To take it down to TH 5 and then
down to Market and reroute it and straighten it out a little bit on the
south side. That's taking a few years to occur but once that does occur,
the City will then again have the authority to put our own stop signs in
there because it will no longer be a State highway. We're pushing hard for
that. We tried to Get the State to put in stop signs and they told us they
wouldn't. They couldn't justify it for their rules. It being a State
highway and ours only being a Catholic School. But there will be. We have
done some changes to the economic development districts out there in order
to get the money to redo the Dakota Avenue intersection so that TH 101 can
go down to TH 5...
(The tape ran out at this point in the meetinG.) Mayor Chmiel adjourned
th~ meeting.
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim