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1990 12 06HOUSING AND REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY REGULAR MEETING DECEMBER 6. 1990 Chairman Horn called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Clark Horn, Don Chmiel, Tom Workman, Charlie Robbins and Jim Bohn STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Executive Dirctor and Todd Gerharc~c, Asst. Executive Director APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Chmiel moved, Robbins seconded to approve the Minutes of the Housing and Redevelopment Authority meeting dated October 18, 1990 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. VISITOR PRESENTATION: Don Chmiel: I'd like to act as a Visitor. Brad has been keeping me comprised of different things that are happening with the store and as you know, we've also got a letter in our packets as well covering Gateway Foods in relationship to what's going on. I have taken off on my own to review a couple of the stores. One being a 3ubliee and the other being a Festival. The one in Andover and the one in Mound. I have their brochures from the store. Knowing what it is and what it consists of and I don't, I'm not too sure whether I would like to see a Jubilee in town. I think if we did get one, I think we would wind up not having as much participation by our people within the community going to this store only because to me it's just another super value period. Brad Johnson: Want me to answer that? Don Chmiel: Yeah. Price wise and different things. I asked my wife to look at these things and she knows prices better than I do. Brad Johnson: The two Jubilee's that exist in the community today are smaller stores and they are remodels of probably old Super Value stores is real life so it's hard to say. Super Value has a conventional store and has a Cub and in the middle is a New Market. Gateway has the IGA stores and then anything that they upgrade is a Jubilee and then they have a Festival which is much bigger than a standard New Market and then they have the Rainbows. The local people that were out here with me and visited with Todd the other day and the people in LaCrosse want to put a Festival in here. Chmiel: Good. Brad Johnson: So that's what they really want to do and that's what they feel that the market would really need and it would work slick. Chmiel: Is that King's position too? Brad Johnson: Yeah. Everybody's position except the corporate guy that has to sign his name to the guarantee. So we took him around and showed him, and it should be kind of strategically become obvious that it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a Festival here. The reason the Festival was turned down here was not because the Andover store and the Forest Lake store and Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 2 the Circle Pines store and soon to be the White Bear store, are not successful in about the same kind of market. The reason it was turned down is because they have 3 unsuccessful stores in Pennsylvannia which projected out to do the first amount of business that we had here which projected out to be a loss instead of a $600,000.00 or $700,000.00 that was projected originally for the Festival a million two. So what they did is they put it on hold and then wanted to have the area resurveyed. And so after Todd and I was done, I mean basically the guys from Gateway are saying to the guy who was here, Kent, this is what should really happen here. So we've got the same consensus from you know everybody. If they do put a Jubilee in, it will be a different Jubilee than the two you saw. It will look and feel like, a little more like the Festivals. The only reason they would go down 10,000 square feet is the numbers just don't work. That's all and it would be expandable to a 45,000 square feet store just, and a Festival just as soon as it was deemed possible because the local guys want to sell groceries and the local guys want to take on I guess Super Value and everybody else but we don't get. You know they don't get to make the choice nor do we over at Super Value. I'm talking to Super Value tomorrow. Gary doesn't get to make the decision. The corporate guys tell them what kind of store they can have based upon how much money they feel they can lose. So I think even though their letter said that they would be considering a Jubilee for here, in real life the person who wrote the letter is pursuing a Festival. What I did not want us to do is get to the point again here about the middle of January and still not have the corporate guarantee we need to get a store done of any kind. Okay? And that's what could happen and then we would be probably stuck for another 2 years and I don't think that's what we want to try to do. Chmiel: I still have some questions. Brad Johnson: See what they're being told. chmiel: Just a minute Brad. As far as I'm concerned in looking at the Jubilee as opposed to the Festival, I see two different kinds of things. One, I don't think they're as competitive by what the prices are. Brad Johnson: Those stores aren't. Chmiel: I'm not sure whether this one would be either as far as a Jubilee and what assurances can we have if they are saying that they will be. How can we be assured that they're going to have the better price arrangement? Brad Johnson: I think we can meet with them. Bohn: I don't know how you can assure it. You can't. Horn: You can't assure it for any private business. Brad Johnson: Their intent is to be competitive and I think we can have a meeting when they get these numbers. I think we're one meeting away. One week away. They're supposed to get the numbers back on Monday and the guy nationally who was here and then they're supposed to come up with their proposals and we decided that was the time probably to have the people from the city sort of pitch the guy from LaCrosse who sits on the committee as to what our feelings are. Generally speaking, you talk to the grocery Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 3 people and they'll say that Chanhassen is 2 to 3 years away, which is what they've been saying for 10 years. Chmiel: Just like Met Council. Brad 3ohnson: Yeah. So you have to kind of deal with that but I think the strategy should be, I mean this is speaking from, if we run into a dead end and nobody will finance anything over a 25,000 square foot store in Chanhassen, we have to sooner or later accept that. Robbins: We can wait 2 years. We don't have to accept it. We can wait 2 years. Brad 3ohnson: See if you wait 2 years it may take a 45~000 square foot store and it may not. See what's happening Jim is you can't really wait because if we wait, Super Value will add capabilities all around Chanhassen and then the next time they do a run. Bohn: I don't buy that. I don't buy that at all for the simple reason they don't have the population. Brad Johnson: They're going to upgrade the two Driskill stores and see each time they add capabilities, they take away from our market. The biggest one that took away from our market is the Cub and the Rainbows. Neither one of which are in Chanhassen. Now there's another Cub proposed. Each of those takes shoppers out of Chanbassen and they go down the road because they look at the total capacity of the area. And if the capacity outside of Chanhassen, around the peripheral is sufficient to handle the grocery needs of Chanhassen, they don't put one in town. And we've only got two grocery store operators. That's all there is and there may be one. Horn: How does the Jubilee price structure compare to the New Market? Brad 3ohnson: That's up to the owner. Oh, to the New Market? Hot n: New Mar ket. Brad 3ohnson: Oh, very competitive. Horn: In my mind that's the question to ask. The options that we had that were real were this one and New Market. We could say we'd like their prices to compare with a Cub but we don't control that. That's not really the real world. We might like that but I think only in Russia can government make that happen. Chmiel: I would just like to see us try to still pursue that Festival aspect more so than going to the Jubilee. Brad Johnson: Well I think you already have the people who you'd like to have doing that doing that. Okay? I just told them, let's be realistic. The second thing is, the plan would be. See the two you went in and I think they're only about 15,000 square feet and 12,000 square feet. Chmiel: Yeah, they're not very large. Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 4 Brad 3ohnson: No, they've just conversions and what they would do is set this up so it was a Festival and all they had to do is move the wall and the pricing would be at least, they say to equal a New Market which is inbetween the two. Chmiel: And I think New Markets are sort of high end too in comparison to Super Value. Brad 3ohnson: According to what I hear is that level, there's a 10~ spread between one and the other. The New Market's supposed to be in the middle. That's the concept but they don't go deep discount on a lot of the high volume items nor does probably the Jubilee. But for that type of discussion and to feel comfortable about that I think we should have somebody from either Gateway or Super Value here explaining that to you. I am meeting with Super Value tomorrow because we've got to kind of keep our ways open of what to do. We've told everybody and I think the paper probably said that today, that the Festival is kind of what we'd like to see and it appears to make the most sense as far as the developers are concerned. It makes the most sense for everybody but I don't know what's involved in the next step. I've talked to, I know I've talked to you about it, is that we probably should plan on having a little meeting with the Gateway folks once the numbers are there and see if there is any other additional input that we can give to them. I'm going to meet with the Super Value guys in the morning and Just see where they're at. They've called me and said they understand that the first deal didn't come through and they're wondering. From the developers point of view, we want to get something built over there. I mean we've got a big investment. See I don't think if we wait 2 years, we probably would have it but we might not. I mean because of this other, people keep building things. They may put a Rainbow finally over on TH 101 and TH 7 because it's on hold for 2 years. They may expand something. You don't know what's going to happen. We're being told now by people that we're trying to bring in town to do other things you know that have nothing to do even with this center. They'll wait until there's a grocery store. Chmiel: I don't expect to see a Rainbow on TH 101 and TH 7. Brad 3ohnson: No, I don't either. I just said they've put it on hold financially at Gateway. I mean it's not going to happen. Chmiel: Right. They can't expand to the size they want with the problems that are existing with that property. Brad 3ohnson: Right. What I'm being told for example on the restaurant for the hotel is that they'll think about it when there's a grocery store in town. I mean those are the kinds of things that you start to hear so we've got to figure out how to get that one. See the town kind of goes dead if you've noticed. Retail wise on the weekends. On Saturdays and after 6:00 at night which the grocery store itself would generate the traffic to. We need to get that kind of done so to make you feel comfortable is the Gateway guys are the ones that are really promoting it. The two fellows that we had. I don't know if they mentioned it. They didn't talk a lot about it when we were going over it with them but they were really hammering away that they think strategically that's what this Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 5 town needs. As I said, the operator does too. I see Bernie's here. I think he's got something to say. Okay? Horn: Let's finish this subject first though. Is there anybody else have any other comments? I'm not sure what we heard here. Obviously we'd all prefer to have the Festival. I don't know if anybody up here is saying that if it's a 3ubilee we don't want it are we? Robbins: I am. Horn: You'd rather not have the project? Robbins: I'll wait. Bohn: As far as I'm concerned, we were willing to have a New Market come in and let's assume that it's New Market or Country Club or whatever, I'm not sure really as a Board, we're really in a position to dictate to a retailer what they should charge for their products. Chmiel: We can't, no. That's right. Bohn: It'd be like telling the hardware store what to charge for them. We're telling Amoco what to charge for gas. In terms of we'd like to see low prices, yeah we all want to see low prices. We're willing to put a New Market in and if we're willing to put in a New Market, we should be willing to put in a store of comparable value, comparable, for lack of words, attractability, etc.. Whether it be Festival or whether it be Jubilee, to me it's just a name. If they're willing to fit the bill and it goes in accordingly and everything words out right, I guess I'm open to either one because they're doing what they're supposed to do and we're doing what we're supposed to do. Robbins: But is it going to survive? Bohn: ! can't speak for that. chmiel: Yeah, we don't know. Robbins: That's not really our consideration whether it will survive or not. Chmiel: Well we want it to survive Charlie. I think we should take a sound position on that to get it to survive. Robbins: Oh, we want it to survive but I guess the point is that we've had other stores come in town that have not survived and they've left. Whether this survives is going to be up to the people that are shopping. Chmiel: Yeah, the point being what I had seen here. There's a vast comparison per item and that's my major concern. I think if we get something in here that's going to be priced competitive with all the adjacent stores that are close to us, I think we can have it survive. Robbins: Okay, what if Lund's came in or Byerly's came in and said we'd like to build a store here? The point is that if a store's coming in. If Housing and Redevelopment authority December 6, 1990 - Page 6 they're willing to do the deal, I guess it's up to us as clients. If we expect the value out of that business, I'm going to shop in town versus leaving to go out of town for groceries. Horn: Tom, do you have any comments? Workman: Nell only that we should talk about the mechanics of grocery stores. Only, that if the store isn't competitive, I'm going to shop there. If it's probably going to be a 3ubitee, I'm going to shop there on the way home from work and get my eggs and milk and my 30 bucks worth but I'm going to still go and drop the big bomb at Cub. Horn: Or Wholesale Club. Workman: Or something. Or Rainbow or whatever and they probably are taking that into account. People aren't going to take two cartloads and their kids and go in there on Saturday morning and pay 20~ to 30~ more for their groceries when 9 miles away there's. Brad 3ohnson: It's not quite that difference but. Workman: Whatever. I mean it can be enormous. Brad 3ohnson: On certain items. Workman: and I know which items they are so I'd rather see the Festival. I don't know, I'd like to see the entire project go through because I think we've got other things to worry about besides the grocery store. Brad Johnson: Well may I suggest, because I think it just would help the Festival people if somebody here would authorize Todd to write a letter expressing your feelings and just get it on record with their, you know thank you very much for consideration of this. We've looked at this and get it on file. Not that you're going to turn one down but from a point of view of the authorizing agency for the assist in this project, you would greatly feel, both from the community's point of view and marketability. You know whatever you want to say. They'd like a letter like that. Horn: I think it'd be appropriate for us to do that. Robbins: I'll motion that we draft or have the staff draft a letter indicating that the Board's are strongly encouraging Festival stores, is that what it's called? Festival Foods store would be the choice. Horn: Is there a second? Chmiel: Second. Robbins moved, Chmiel seconded to direct staff to draft a letter to Gateway Foods indicating that the Housing and Redevelopment Authority is strongly encouraging a Festival Foods store be located in Chanhassen. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Horn: I think that's a more positive approach than going out and telling them that we would certainly deny. Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, ~990 - Page 7 Chmiel: Maybe a good ldea too would be maybe the HRA should take a look at that one in Andover. Horn: Well let's hope we don't have to cross that bridge. Chmiel: Yet. HoT n: Ever. Brad 3ohnson: There is a big difference I think between the 3ubilee you've looked at. The one they're planning here is basically the plan for the Festival and they're trying to sneak it by the corporate guys up there. Bohn: Is Gateway 3ubilee? Brad Johnson: Gateway is 3ubilee, Festival and Rainbow. All they're using is the Subilee name to sneak a store in here that will look like a Festival but from a corporate point of view the difference is 10,000 square feet and as I said, the stores you've looked at, the two you've looked are standard, conventional stores. Probably 10-12,000 square feet smaller even than the Jubilee. Horn: Dick, I think you had a comment earlier didn't you? Dick Wing: I don't. I guess I just wanted to get up to speed on, was HRA trying to fill x square feet in each store or a specific store? ...there's a real need to have a competitive store that can compete with the other lowered priced stores. Horn: We're not really dictating what kind of store goes in there. At least that's been our position in the past. We might give them some strong encouragement of what our personal preference would be but as a Board that's not really our position. Our position is to develop the area. Any other comments or questions? Workman: With quality, viable businesses. Horn: Yeah, right. Chmiel: That will be there for years to come. Horn: Any other visitor presentations? Workman: Would this be an appropriate time to maybe have Bernie? Horn: Well that's what I was asking. Did you bare a Visitor Presentation Bernie? Bernie: Yes I do. Horn: I kind of figured you would. Bernie Hanson: I guess what I'll be addressing which I'm sure all of you are aware. Have gotten letters. I'm referring to the letter I received Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, lggO - Page 8 from Roger Knutson from the City stating that we would be evicted as of December 31st if the Market Square continue so I guess what my questions are, where do we stand? Is the HRA going to assist me to survive until something takes place because I just listened to the grocery store discussion here like everything's still alive but I guess nobody knows exactly when. I guess I sort of turn that back to you to buy time to make this all happen because I've been sitting waiting, I forgot how long already. I wouldn't even try to figure that out. We're ready to go plan specs, financing, everything and we run into these delays with the center so I turn it back to you. What can we do to make this happen? Horn: I guess I'd like to get a staff update on the source of this letter. Gerhardt: Based on the HRA agreement that was formulated this last August when Bernie and Bob Copeland, owner and partner in the Medical Arts Building had discussed through an agreement that the HRA had entered into with the Market Square people, that the Chanhassen Lawn and Sports facility would be gone from that premise by August 1, 1990. Obviously that building has not moved from that date and agreement was made at that meeting to extend for that building to remain on that site until November 1 based on the viability of Market Square going ahead and getting footings into the ground by that time. Footings were not, a building permit was not taken out by the Market Square people so staff followed through with the words that agreement was made into at that meeting and asked Roger Knutson to draft a letter asking Bernie to vacate his premise. From that Bernie had called me and I asked and he said, you know what are the options I have available to remain here until we find out if Market Square is going to go ahead or not? I said that he could come to the next HRA meeting and request of the HRA for another extension and I told Bernie also that I would be inviting Bob Copeland to this meeting because it does impact him. The options available to the HRA at this point would be one to extend to Bernie again a 2 month extension to the end of February and that if a building permit is not taken out by March 1 of 1990, that again a letter be sent to Bernie that he must vacate the premise. Based on the agreement, the default that the HRA is in in that agreement, must have deadlines for Bernie to move out because Bob does have an agreement with the HRA to build the second phase of the Medical Arts facility and once he comes in and wants to execute that part of the agreement, we will be in default again and if Bob feels and has justification for damages, he could come in and sue the HRA for such damages. I don't want to get into that now or even think about that stuff at this point. Basically those are your options and an update on that issue. I stand to answer any questions you may have. Horn: Did we get any response from Copeland? Gerhardt: Mr. Copeland is here this evening. I guess I'd rather have Bob update you as to the HRA's options on that and his feelings. I think Bob is in the frustration that we all are is Market Square going to be a reality or not and that's almost an unknown and lays in the hands of Scribner and their decision of either a Festival, Jubilee or whatever. If that decision was made, Brad has made the case that he would rather see either or a Jubilee or a Festival come in Just to get the project going and that would alleviate and put out there a date that we know that the project is going to go ahead. That footings can be put in the ground and you can estimate construction time. And then that gives Bob a realistic date to Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1<)90 - Page 9 work with. But Bob has been very fair in granting these extensions, not in writing because he doesn't want to give up his options and he has not taken action against the HRA either. I think everybody's been fair and equitable in this deal so far and has been willing to work togethe~ and until Scribner makes a decision on what the future lies for a grocery store in this community, I think we're at their beckoning call on this. Horn: Did you want to comment? We don't want to force you or put you on the spot. Bob Copeland: I guess we just want to be sure that you folks understand our position. We have nothing against Bernie and nothing against the Chanhassen Lawn and Sports. It's just that we have a deal with you folks and he's supposed to be gone on August l, 1990 and he's still there and we're being hurt by that. We're being hurt in several ways. We're supposed to have access to the parking lot right to the west of our building right over his property, or where he is right now. We don't have that access. Further, we have development rights for Phase 2 but we can't really do anything seriously on the Phase 2 because when we talk to anybody about it, we can't talk timing. We have no idea when it's going to be available to proceed so that's hurting us. The other thing is that we're getting continuous complaints from our tenants about smoke from Mr. Hanson's smokestack being drawn into our intakes and our heating ventilating and air conditioning system and some of the people have complained to the point where they've been nauseated and headaches and had to go home. Couldn't complete the day working in that building. Well, I won't get into what it looks like. That's another issue but we are being hurt by this. We understand you have a problem and I don't know how to solve it but we want to make sure that you understand our position on it and that we're not just sitting back and everything's dandy with us. Whatever you do. In other words, we have a stake in the thing and we're not writing nasty letters and we're not threatening lawsuits or anything else because we know you have a problem but we still have a real interest in getting it solved fast. (There was a tape change at this point.) Robbins: ...how it could be the same conversation. Bob Copeland: Well that's right but you see I don't believe it. If there was an agreement or something today that he'd be gone on July 1st, I mean I don't have any reason to believe that. Until he's gone I won't believe it. Do you think ~ should? Chmiel: It's kind of a loaded shotgun, yeah. Workman: Maybe what we need to do, and it's not Brad's fault and not related to your... We're driven by Chis grocery store in Market Square and we've been squirming because we've got all the eggs in the basket and they're sitting rotting. I don't believe you have any reason to believe that Bernie will ever be gone. I think we're all growing old. We have two large tenants who need to go someplace. Potentially large tenants. Bernie and Merlyn's. We need to look at other options for those guys potentially? The Crossroad Bank's site? In relationship to something else to do that? Does that give us better options? Does that drive the market Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 10 from our viewpoint a little bit better so that we can get the thing to move on? I know Mr. Copeland doesn't care where they go. I'd like to see a grocery store. I'd like to see Bernie with the grocery store and I'd like to see Merlyn's in there too. Robbins: Well Merlyn's lease at least doesn't go up for another 2 years. Workman: He's not going to .go into that thing for 2 years? Chmiel: He doesn't have to leave is what you're saying. Brad 3ohnson: He isn't required to move for another 2 years. The other problem is we have considered trying to build this center without a grocery store in it and the financing guys say no. Horn: And as far as other options, you know we looked at one other option in Bernie's case before this. Workman: Bernie on his own but Bernie with other options? I don't know. Horn: We don't make those options. We listen to options that are presented to us. Workman: But we have some direction. I mean we don't have our fingers completely out of the...here I don't think. · Horn: Do you know something I don't? Workman: Well yeah. We're talking about the size a grocery store that you want and what they can do and I mean we have gentle persuasion but if we're only, if we only have one option and that is Bernie either goes into that grocery store and then somebody in Oklahoma's tying that up. If that person says no, the grocery store isn't going up, Bernie is surely going to have to be somewhere else and yet we've gotten into this discussion before that well then we don't have to worry because they've got an agreement and all the agreements are signed and everything else and Bernie's out and we can all sleep at night you know. But that's not the way we'd like to have it happen but that's why I've tried to look for some more options. Robbins: Well Tom I think the option is, and when we've had this discussion before, is that we've got actually two issues here. We've got the issue with Bob Copeland and we've got the issue with Bernie. I think Bernie's indifferent to where he moves to at this point. If in fact there was another site available, he could move there regardless of what Market Square does. That would solve the problem for Bernie and that would solve the problem for the HRA and that would solve the problem of Bob Copeland if in fact there was another site to be available to Bernie to move. So it's not that Market Square drives it. It obviously enhances it but if there was another site that was equal for Bernie, that would solve the problem all the way around. Horn: I think Bernie would have probably been at another site by now if he found something. Workman: I don't think somebody's creatively looking for another site. Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 11 Robbins: We've done it for the last three years. We've been looking for sites for Bernie for the last 3 years. Bernie Hanson: I just want to address that on the Kent with the Hardware store. He approached me and said that, I called him this evening before I came here. That's why I was late. I was talking to him for a couple minutes so I said do you mind me expressing what you said to me before and he said fine. He said if that's all falling apart, what he said was if the HRA would support us in like manner of what they were going to support us in Market Square to move to another site to build, he was interested in joining forces with me and we build our own because I'm locked in a corner. That's the only reason I'm talking about it. My preference is Market Square. I don't want to battle with anybody. I want to be out of that building as everybody knows. I've expressed it many, many, many times so I'm just looking for some other place that has options. And as I said, he expressed an interest if the HRA would support us in the same manner to look at another site because I understand the bank is either in or out. I don't know. You people know that. I don't. So that's our conversation the last time but there's two people, I don't know how many square feet he's talking in Market Square. I never paid that close attention. Is it 10,000 feet? Brad Johnson: The problem simply is we can't define, not you personally but right now unless you've got...the guarantees the bank are requiring on a single purpose building or developers are required for a single purpose building today, I'm looking for a mortgage down there for a building at 12 and I can't get a mortgage on it because it's too small and doesn't have...and it's tough. Like we said, we had a meeting the other day. If we can just build one long arm of the thing over here, let's just do it and nobody was interested. Horn: Well I think it's pretty obvious with what's going on here with the economic situation. Brad Johnson: It's just we're kind of caught in a problem and I think we could work that problem. I told the guys, I said well the solution for Bernie and anybody else, if we just take and move it over to where you suggested okay. And those guys didn't think, given the rents that they're paying, that we could finance it. And with the lack of one good credit tenant. Basically that center has, as tenants, people with good credit but no corporate statement. Therefore you can't get the mortgage today. We couldn't build town square today for example. Today. Chmiel: Right. The ballgame has changed. Brad 3ohnson: It blows your mind. We could build that with 40~ occupancy the first time around. Today we couldn't do it. Horn: And I think the situation today is much different than it was even 6 months ago. Brad Johnson: If we wait until about, at this point a month from now between Gateway and Super Value they will have come up with something or they will not have to come up with something. We're in the process again. Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 12 Horn: The question is what do we do in the meantime. Brad 3ohnson: Yeah. Horn: I guess my feeling is I agree with you Brad that Bernie would have a tough time with a stand alone option anywhere else at this point or even in conjunction with the Hardware. We've seen it in our business. We've seen it in well the bank is in a similar situation and I think that's the reality of our development today. We ran into this what, 5 years ago? And we're seeing it again. Things stop. But we've got a difficult situation to deal with here in the interim and that is, I know that Mr. Copeland's tenants are having problems being they can't stay at work because they have to go home sick. We have to deal with that issue somehow. He can't continue in business that way. I don't have a ready solution at hand but I certainly understand the problem and appreciate it. Chmiel: Bob, are you at full occupancy in your existing? Bob Copeland: We're at 92~. Horn: As I see it, we have two issues tonight that we have to deal with and we have to decide are we going to try to wait out the recession with them or pull the cord at this time and I think that's what we're going to have to decide. Workman: Ride it out. It's just a mini-recession. Chmiel: Yeah, from all the indicators, I think from some of the people I've talked with at the Rotary and other people that I've talked to that they expect to see this come back in the spring again. I think as I see our growth as we've got it here, we're going to still keep growing even though we have a recession. Same thing happened in Eden Prairie in the past recession we had at that particular time. Everybody thought Eden Prairie was going to slow down and it didn't and I've made this comment probably before but being in the electric utility business, our complete company was at about a 2~ electrical load growth. During recession, Eden Prairie was at 21~ and that never was lower than electrical load growth. We still maintain a 2~ load growth so that meant that Eden Prairie was still growing because they were in the next suburb just as we are now to Eden Prairie and that growth is going to be here. It's not going to stop. Horn: Well we have an option. We can let the letter go as it stands or we can move for an extension. Workman: I would move for the extension. Horn: To what date? Chmiel: As Todd indicated, February of 1991 with a potential at that time too. Gerhardt: 28th. Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 13 Workman: I guess I'd rather, just because that's the mid-winter and I don't know if anything's going to happen or not there anyway, I guess I would prefer March 31st. Horn: Is there a second to the motion? Chmiel: ! guess I'd like to just have a little discussion with Bob as well yet. Horn: We should second the motion before discussion. Chmiel: Okay, let me second that motion. Bob, what do you, I know your position is to what you just said but as you said, you don't have anything to really pull together and by March I t'hink the reason Tom made that particular motion was knowing one way or the other whether we're going to have a grocery store here. I think by that particular time we should know one way or the other it being either a Jubilee, Festival or whatever. I think that's really the whole hinging point on this whole thing as you well know. I guess I'm just asking your opinion. Bob Copeland: Can you focus the question a little more specifically? Chmiel: Okay. I guess I'm looking at your concerns. You're still thinking about developing your property and you'd like to have Bernie out of there. Does March 31st still, would that fit in with your potential plans for your expansion or whatever you're contemplating? Bob Copeland: Well it doesn't give us our access. It doesn't answer the ...question. You know it doesn't do anything. We'll just be continuing along the way we are now. Bernie Hanson: I want to address something. I talked with Todd the other day and he said he hasn't been hearing complaints on the smoke situation since a month or 6 weeks ago so I don't know if that should dwell as one Of the big things that's going to turn something here. Chmiel: Are you still burning wood? Bernie Hanson: It's a different wood. Bob Copeland: What's different? Bernie Hanson: Different wood is what the Fire Marshall asked me to do. Bob Copeland: But what was it before and what is it now? Bernie Hanson: It was crating wood and now it's some crating wood mixed with split wood all dry. First quality wood that you could ever use. And we've also been trying to make sure that we don't over load the stove so you don't get that factor. The secret is you keep the temperature up in the stove. Horn: Have the complaints decreased Todd? Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, lggO - Page i4 Gerhardt: I haven't received one in the last month but not to say that Bob didn't get any. I mean I usually get them through Bob and Bob usually filters them, if there's serious ones down to me and ask for action so I can't answer if Bob's taken any in the last month. Workman: People are keeping their windows closed now probably. Horn: Well this came through the ventilation system. Bob Copeland: It's strange. I don't fully understand it because there are some tenants that have noticed a thing. They say, smoke? What are you talking about? What smoke? And then there are the folks primarily in the clinic who just can't, haven't been able to even work in the environment so I don't understand it. Maybe it's just the sensitivity of different people or something. Gerhardt: I think it deals a lot with the temperatures and the direction of the wind and that area back there is very difficult. It's very difficult to maintain that parking lot back there. Snow dumps back there like you wouldn't believe. Comes right over the top of the apartment building and it's just like a little valley back there. Everything just dumps. We're going to have to go in there 2 to 3 times a year to pull snow out of there where we'll take trucks and clean it out so it's the wind direction and everything in that area has changed completely. And adding the fence back there and you know the new construction of all the buildings in there has done something. Bernie's building is very close to the Medical Arts and when he does burn, there are going to be days when that smoke is going to get into the building. I ddn't know. I've talked to an environmentalist that we all know and he had recommended that maybe a 5 foot extension to the smoke stack could potentially solve some of that in getting it up higher into the air. Robbing: Bernie, is the stove you're using when you're burning totally for heating or is it decorative or is it both? Bernie Hanson: It's heating. Robbing: Totally, 100~ heating then? $o if you don't a stove then you're basically not heating the building? Bernie Hanson: I have a furnances in the back of the building but up in the front there isn't and we never insulated that more because it's always been we're going to get out of that place. It's like heating a... You know that's the problem that you've got. The heating bills will drive you right out of there if you try to run the ~urnances. Horn: There are a couple of factors. Bernie's right. If you burn it hotter, you don't have all the smoke. The ot~er issue is that we're coming into a season where the wind, prevailing winds are changing to the north and the northwest which will change it considerably so you might be seeing a result of that even more so than the change... Bernie Hanson: I will address myself personally that we have to watch it closely and don't overload the stove and you can build a hot fire. Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 15 Horn: Right. And I think too, I don't know if you can sort your water or not but on days that you have high humidity and whatever, you can choose to burn the better stuff. Bernie Hanson: And I can assure you that. we're striving to do that because you know, if I can just stay there and keep this thing under control and not somebody complaining at me you know like tbs day the Fire Marshall came in there. It took me 4 hours of wasted time. Well I can't afford that either so I'm trying to see that it works right is what I'm trying to address. Horn: Okay, we have a motion on the floor and a second. Is there any further discussion on the motion? Robbins: That's March 31st for what now exactly? The extension? Horn: The extension. Instead of midnight December 31st, it will be midnight March 31st, 1991. Robbins: What will take place then? Horn: That he will have to vacate the premises. Robbins: March 31, 1991 which is only what? 4 months away? Horn: Right. Unless we have another extension. Other discussion? Bernie Hanson: Isn't that based on the fact that Market Square is underway and we all know what direction was happening? Horn: Right. Robbins: And that's what I was going to get at. Otherwise it means nothing. Chmiel: That's right. That's what it was. Bernie Hanson: Brad, is that enough time you know that we can? Brad 3ohnson: Our current position dates around February 1st. Horn: Other questions? Workman moved, Chmiel seconded to grant an extension to Bernie Hanson, Chanhassen Lawn and Sports until midnight, March 31, 1991 tn which to vacate his premises. Rll voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Horn: And you heard Bernie. He'll do whatever he can to alleviate your smoke problem. Bob Copeland: Oh, it is better. Horn: I think the City should do everything they can in terms of Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 16 assistance to Bernie and methods of allieving it. Bernie Hanson: One thing ! would address, excuse me, address. Maybe Bob as long as you're standing here. [ had the idea the other day, if you gave me permission...this might sound crazy...west side of your wall that would allow me to look at the stack, I know damn well we can control the... because I can look out there and look at the stack and if anything's going amuck, I can change it instantly. I mean it might be God send to keep everybody of~ my butt and I know... Horn: [ don't know what that would do to the eastbound traffic when the sun is setting. Bernie Hanson: Well I don't think, I mean if you look through our office window, it'd be straight up. I just happened to look at that the other day and think, I just had that brainstorm and I didn't know how I could mount anything... I'd have to have a periscope or something in order to do something on our building. Something to think about. Gerhardt: Clark? Put an extension on it tomorrow? Look at the option of adding an extension to it tomorrow. Horn: To the stack? Okay. I think we have another item of a similar vein that we got a letter on today that we should address during the Visitor Presentation and that is the request by Woodbridge Corporation to extend their agreement date and also to amend the requirements. I had a meeting with Mr. Weir today and he explained the situation to me. The things that he explained seemed to make sense in terms of the current business climate. I guess has everyone had a chance to read that letter at this point? Both he and Mr. Mork could not make the meeting tonight and they asked that we would address this issue. Chmiel: Neither nor. Horn: Right. Chmiel: In lieu of what's here. Gerhardt: If the HRA would want me to just briefly go through what the letter is as outlined as you're going through it. Basically the letter is requesting the HRA to extend the Crossroads National Bank purchase agreement to August 1, or to August some date of 1991. 5 month extension. In lieu of that time Crossroads National Bank would be looking to either going ahead with their present facility or giving them additional time to work with other banking agencies to develop on that site. The second area that he is requesting that his purchase agreement be modified to extend the 2 year period which is lapsing to develop a facility and to extend that out to a 5 year period. Basically that is the agreement as it stands. He's not asking, or go ahead Clark. Horn: The rules of, in terms of any other part of the contract stay the same and the reason behind the first request is obvious. That they're still trying to get things in place. The reason for the second question as I understand it is that they feel that due to the changing climate of the regulatory agencies, that they're getting so much more skeptical now that they would not look with favor on putting an obligation to expand which may Housing and Redevelopment Authority December 6, 1990 - Page 17 put the institution beyond a good financial condition in 2 years. I guess from our perspective, we're kind of looking at a situation Iike we were here tonight. If we ieft it at 2 years, at the end of 2 years when we force them into doing something, what do we gain by forcing them out of business which wouId realIy be our option? Which is still the option we have after 5 years of Ieaving it the way it is so from that perspective I'm not sure what puts us in any worst condition. The only thing that I can see that would be better than the agreement we have here £s if we could, if we had another person who couId come in and somehow give us guarantees that they could beat these dates or have a higher vaIued building. Robbins: I guess Clark, with regards to that and again I'll'just draw up on my banking background as such. Assuming that that Woodbridge was to cash out now, I mean literally today or tomorrow. If in fact you're looking at another banking organization, they would be confined with the same reguiations anyway. It doesn't matter who's coming in. It would be, you're still looking at the same situation. The same regulations. Things are pretty much comparable. Bohn: Wasn't Norwest supposed to expand out here? Horn: That would have to go through the same charter. Robbins: It would have to go through the same process. Whether it be First, whether it be Norwest, whether it be out state, whether it be in state, the process remains the same. You're still looking at a similar structure here in terms of you've got to go through the charter process. You've got to spend some money and then secondly, you have to look at putting up a buiIding. I mean that's just about the bottom line. And aiso what's not mentioned in this letter, and this is effective now in 1990, the FDIC has come in now and the FDIC is saying that in case of, if you wiII, a failed bank or one that's in Jeopardy, the FDIC has the right to come in and cancel all leases. So whether it be 5 years or 2 years or l0 years or whatever, the FDIC can take that over at any time anyway. Bohn: If Norwest came in, they wouldn't have...I presume? Robbins: We don't know that. We have no idea of knowing that. Bohn: I still hate to see this land tied up for 5 years. Robbins: Well we've been giving options to Market Square for several years. I really don't see this to be anything different. We'd all like to see the deal work. Bohn: It's a prime piece of property. Robbins: Oh, so is Market Square. We've been granting options to Market Square to a delay and delay and delay. Bohn: We don't own Market Square. Robbins: All they're asking is to do a delay here for another 6 months. We'll be in the same situation that we are in 6 months. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 18 Ashworth: Mr. Chairman? If I may. Horn: Go ahead. Ashworth: This letter was faxed last night and Dave brought it over. Hand carried it over this morning. We have no staff report along with this item. My recollection is that the lease or they are to meet their obligations, I think it was February 14th so you're going to have another meeting in January. Horn: February 8th. Ashworth: But you will have another meeting in January. I would hope that I would suggest that you table it. Allow staff to prepare a recommendation. In addition I would like to take and get an opinion from the original author of the agreement which was John Dean. As well, if you recall, we did get a second opinion regarding that agreement from Roger Knutson and at least my recollection of his analysis was that if he had his druthers. If he had a way to redo it, there was various sections of that that he would recommend be drafted in another way. I don't think that we should just quickly move ahead with an extension without potentially correcting some of the problems that exist. And I'm not sure that that's a true but I think that we should hear what each of those two have to say. Horn: It doesn't appear that anything is going to change between now and January. Ashworth: I can't see where it would. Horn: Anybody have any other comments? Workman: I think that's a step in the right direction. I think this is somewhat different from Market Square. 5 months temporary building doesn't, I've received more input on this little unknown parcel down here from people about more than Market Square. Where is it? Why isn't it up? What's going on? The ownership. I mean it's our parcel right? The ownership of the parcel gives us more control I think. I wish it could have worked out for Mr. Mork and I think he was a good pitchman for that. Maybe they need a new pitchman but I think we should take advantage of the lull and shore up our position. Horn: We can consider our options at the next meeting. Chmiel: Yeah. Horn: We don't need a motion on that then right? Okay. Any other Visitor Presentations? Must be a new record for us and that will be on the agenda in February. Ashwor th: Yes. Workman: Can we make commissioner presentations At the end? Horn: You might as well make them now. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 19 Robbins: Clark, back to the letter though. It does say to request the following. Was he looking for a response from us immediately or I guess what is the, just in terms of exactly what the letter says? Horn: What section? Robbins: Second page, last paragraph. It says, to summarize we respect the following. Extension and then number 2 and so forth. Was he asking for us to act on that at tonight's meeting or were you going to get back to him and say we'll act on it in the meeting in January? Horn: I think that staff should respond to him that they will be on the agenda in Sanuary. Robbins: Okay, fine. Chmiel: In fact I think they should really be here in the event that there's any questions as well. Workman: The only thing I had quickly was, I talked to Todd about it earlier was I think the Christmas light decorations in the median in downtown look absolutely atrocious hanging like strings on I don't know what. Blowing in the wind and haven't been giving the trees any known distinction. Chmiel: I think when we were gone we had some strong winds. Workman: If you go by the hotel, the hotel has some of the same white lights and they are neatly draped around the tree. The ones in City Hall go and they're all over and some are just hanging and I think we need to do something to shore that up. I don't know that that's the HRA's business or the City Council's. Gerhardt: It's a staff thing where we will direct the public works to go out and to try and make more of a circular pattern around those and break up some of the lines on them. Some of them have fallen off. Workman: Have you seen them at night? Gerhardt: Yeah. They drape down like, you know we can correct it. We'll have them go out and hook them back up. I mean I don't know what it is in this area but we go through flags here at City Hall. I mean we put a flag out, we've got to change it almost bi-monthly because they get tattered so by the winds so I'm not blaming the winds completely on it but a lot of them have blown around. We'll go back out there. Workman: One distinct pattern on each tree somehow to maintain some symmetry. Horn: Well I didn't lik eit but I just attributed it to my poor taste in artistic. Workman: It's bad. I think the HRA should care more about how that downtown looks than anybody. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 20 Gerhardt: I don't know about this group and their artisttcal tastes. I mean I'm never going to bring another artistical thing to this group. No more sculptures. No more anything. Horn: I just assumed if I like it, it must be bad. Any other Visitors Presentation issues? JOINT HR~ AND CITY COUNCIL REVIEN OF THE HIGHN~Y S STREETSCP~E DESIGN, BARTON-~SCHH~N. Gerhardt: I asked Barton-~schman not to be here tonight. I included in here some of their costs associating with coming out to these meetings and I felt that I could give a similar presentation. Charlie was here at the last HR~ meeting. Don Chmiel also was there where they presented their new concepts for the walls and vertical elements for both the Market and TH 5 entry monuments. I guess I'd like to present those to Jim and Tom. Some of you had the opportunity to look at the. Chmiel: Todd, there was one thing that was never really asked at the Council meeting and I was afraid to really ask it. What's the cost of all of this? Gerhardt: I've also included in that handout with...letter, the next page after...outline of the costs for the walls. It does not include the flowers. It does not include the vertical elements. It does not include the deciduous trees and coniferous trees and irrigation, fences, streetscape lighting .... This is similar to our meeting back in September where the group at that time requested that another look at the wall breakdown for that area. Again they have come in with the path scenario as it comes around. There will be a bike path that will run along TH 5. Chanhassen will be lit with lights approximately 5 of them in front of the wall highlighting the name of Chanhassen to come in with the green spruce and a few other deciduous trees. Maples. They also included there will be a signal light in that area so it's not just going to be a beautiful park but it will be construction of public roadways. What was brought out at our last Joint meeting with the Council and the HRA, they expressed that an interest in the wall. Felt good with the wall. They felt that they wanted to come in with more of a prairie type atmosphere that Chanhassen really represented. ~nd to get that they felt that by adding a few more sugar maples in this area and creating more of a little mini-forest type thing, that that could be accomplished so I'm just adding those tree... Robbins: The letters for Chanhassen, how high are the letters? Gerhardt: I think those are 3 feet. Horn: They're going to get my green metal in here yet aren't they? Gerhardt: The wall is 6 foot Horn: Yeah, they're at least 3 feet then. Chmiel: 2 feet. Gerhardt: 2 feet 6 inches from the top to the bottom. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, i990 - Page 21 Robbins: And you're supposed to see that from what distance away? Horn: Are they going to be backlit or anything? Gerhardt: No. On that drawing it shows 5, the spotlight design in the front that will shine on it. It's better than the backlit. The backlit , lights like we have over across Great Plains in. front of the Klingelhutz building there, that sign. That has the backlit lights and that's run more through a transformer type thing and that transformer burns out almost annually. These spotlights could be run off a timer which are more efficient. You get better lighting and you get direct lighting than that backlit light. Horn: You can run a transformer off a timer. Gerhardt: The timer would have a small transformer thing on it. We've got one here at City Hall and that thing is always... Horn: I mean the other lights you can turn that off and on with a timer. Bohn: 2 feet 6 inches. Gerhardt: ...burns out annually and it costs the City around $400.00 to $500.00 to replace it. Horn: It sounds like a design flaw from who we get it from. Gerhardt: I think we may have solved that problem now. We'll have to look into that. This shows a better scheme. At the first meeting I showed the trees and the plantings behind the wall. At the last joint meeting that is what the Council and HRA felt that they wanted to see again is more of a woods, tree look behind the wall instead of... Bohn: The total wall is 6 foot tall? Gerhardt: 6'6". Bohn: 6;6"? The letters are at 2 feet 6. Chmiel: Todd, what was the discussion that we had of those trees behind the wall in conjunction with Prairie House as well as the Holiday. Would that obstruct the view of people coming through and looking as they're driving along for a restaurant or a gas station or whatever? Gerhardt: The Prairie House has expressed a concern with monuments, trees in blocking their signage and Barton-Rschman was convinced that they could put plantings in there that would not block the view of that sign so that consideration would be taken under advisement when plantings occurred. Bohn: 6'6" lettering isn't very high. The sign. What says Chanhassen. Horn: Yeah, the sign wouldn't block anything. Chmiel: No, the trees. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 22 Gerhardt: The sign sits over here and you've got your wall. Chmiel: What you're saying is the setback would be far enough back where it wouldn't obstruct his sign. Horn: You know what we really need on this is some type of a rendering or a shot of what the sign would look like from the highway. Because this obviously isn't a perspective of what that would be. Gerhardt: Well that's what this one is to represent. Horn: That's the way it would look to us from TH 5? Gerhardt: Yeah. This is from.. Workman: Is that at Narket? Chmiel: No, that's Great Plains. Horn: Going east. Gerhardt: Right at the middle of the TH $ intersection. Bohn: TH 5 and what? Great Plains? Gerhardt: Yep. You can see the Holiday gas station. He took a photo of it and this is an overlay then. Horn: Oh yeah, that's alright. You don't even block the Prairie House. Bohn: No. The lettering in that Chanhassen is really small though. Workman: We own that now right? Gerhardt: We own that. Bohn: I like it but I wish the lettering was bigger. Gerhardt: We could make the wall bigger. Bohn: I think the lettering should be like 3 feet. Gerhardt: Another 6 inches in the lettering? Bohn: Yes. Gerhardt: Raise the wall 6 inches? Workman: What's the total cost of the project? Chmiel: $41,000.00. Workman: Just for this corner? Chmiel: One corner. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 23 Workman: And the other corner is more? Gerhardt: $41,000.00 plus benches, trees and whatever the vertical monument. Workman: So you're talking about a $120,000.00 project entirely here? Gerhardt: $120,000.00 to $150,000.00. Wot kman: Depending on whether... Gerhardt: I mean there's a lot of hungry people out there right now. Horn: That wall seems high. Gerhardt: 6 foot? Horn: No, I mean priced. $30,000.00. Gerhardt: I think they want to come in high. They've viewed this. You know they're seen what BRW's gone through in the downtown and they've walked on pins and needles when they talk to us about this stuff and they want to make sure that they're not misleading the HRA in any way. They're going to come in high on everything and they're going to make sure that everybody's aware of everything that's going on. Horn: I don't know that we're upset with BRW because of their price estimates. We're just upset with their design. Chmiel: The final project. Gerhardt: Well, that's right. They want to make sure that they have clear direction from you on what you want to see there. I mean if you want a wall that's bigger, now is the time to talk about it. Chmiel: I'd say we're talking $60,000.00 for the both of those elements. To me that'd be a ballpark figure right there. Horn: 60 for the whole thing? Chmiel: For the whole thing, yeah. I'm thinking they're high probably by about $10,000.00 just alone on that wall. . Robbins: But I think the lettering is too small. Horn: Well, think of the campaign signs that are always out on that corner and they have. a lot smaller lettering. Chmiel: Well let's see. Mine were about. Horn: Yeah, but look at your lettering. You could read those. Chmiel: We're talking that lettering. Horn: Yeah. That's less than a foot. This is 2 1/2. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, i990 - Page 24 Chmiel: That was still visible. Workman: Maybe the letters need to be separated a little. Chmiel: I look at that and this Just came to mind Just the other day when I was coming in on Great Plains. The one that had the white one for the Dinner Theatre or whatever. We have one already with a given style and I thought we looked at that when we didn't like what was existing but yet we're going to introduce another one in another location for two others. Two other locations. Horn: What didn't we like? Chmiel: That's what I was wondering. What was it that they didn't like about that particular one? Horn: Which one are you referring to Don? Chmiel: That one on the, right by Klingelhutz'. Gerhardt: ! don't know that they ever said that they didn't like this one. I think what they didn't like was the concept of coming in with the tower. The vertical. Bohn: How tall are the letters on that one? Gerhardt: The letters on this I would say are between 8 and 12 inches. Bohn: I think closer to Chmiel: And those are going to be another foot closer. Horn: Yeah, I think those would be big enough. Chmiel: I think that 2 1/2 feet Sim, just might not be too bad. Horn: I could read Chmiel plain as day and I've got bad eyes. Chmiel: Thank you. Horn: I guess my only concern about the whole concept is the cost of that concrete wall. How much of that is labor and how much of that is material or is this all material? Gerhardt: No. They've got labor in there. I mean grading site modifications of $1,800.00 and that's all labor. These are their estimates of what they feel it would cost to construct a concrete block radius wall. Horn: I think we'd like, speaking for myself I like the concept but I think the estimates are too high. I'd like to see a bigger breakdown between labor and material on it. Gerhardt: Well we could go ahead and go out and solicit some quotes and that's usually what the architects do when you get these quotes. They Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 25 usually go to somebody that they work with but we can go ahead and do that. Horn: Maybe what we should do is approve it pending bids of a certain price? Would that sound reasonable? Chmiel: Yeah, I would. Robbins: The thing is, do we know what a certain price is? Zn other words, you know the dollars appear to be high to me too. I guess I knew what you were saying about getting bids. I guess if a street person was to call any concrete or construction place and say I want a wall 60 feet by 6, what would you charge me, I guess that's what it would approach this $30,000.00 business. Assuming that the site was prepared because the $1,800.00, I think that's within reason. I don't have a problem with that and I think the rest of the numbers look alright. Chmiel: The rest of the numbers fall in line. Robbins: But the 30 grand for some concrete and some rock, that's probably 3 or 4 person job for about 1 day. Chmiel: Yeah, Clark and I were having discussions here and I came up with the same cost in putting in a basement, a block basement for a house. About $10,000.00. Add another $10,000.00 to it and that's a lot of pluses and that's where I'm coming up with the $20,000.00. Horn: So we'd be looking at a total of $30,000.00 project cost we think would be reasonable? Chmiel: Yeah, as opposed to $41,000.00. Gerhardt: For just the wall? Horn= No, the whole thing. Gerhardt: $30,000.007 Hot n: Yeah. Chmiel: Per each element. Gerhardt: For each element? Chmiel= It's $41,000.00 now. Gerhardt: Including the grading and? Horn: Yes. We're taking 10 off the wall. Robbins: However though, I think in fairness to Barton-Aschman, you know it's not that we're questioning what they're doing. ! think it's questioning this 30 but I think what we should also be cognizant that if in ~act we shop around and we get some other bids and it turns out to be a similar dollar. In other words, if the 30's in line. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 26 Gerhardt: We would go out to a competitive bid process with this. The next section or the second letter from them talking about TH 5 urban design intersects monuments, they have listed 5 architects that would come in and physically design these things to specifications and then from that we would go out to a formal bid process. RobbinG: So these are basically estimates then? Gerhardt: These are just rough estimates. These are not actual bids. Workman: And we have the right to reject. Gerhardt: You have the right to reject bids. RobbinG: So we don't have to worry about dollars right now then as long as it's open? Chmiel: Yeah. One thing I might add that's not considered in here are the additional trees that were proposed for that. Those costs are not incurred with that wall. Gerhardt: Right. None of the trees. None of the trees are included in this. Chmiel: That would be in addition to. Gerhardt: And the vertical element is also not included in this. Horn: Can't the City put the maples in? We've got maples don't we? Gerhardt: You mean in our garden? HOTn: Yes. Gerhardt: Not of any size that would be comparable to the ash that you've planted along the boulevards and of the plantings that would go in that are proposed right now. I mean ours are more or less seedling types or 5 to $ year olds. Workman: Get the Arboretum involved to avoid. Chmiel: Yeah, that was one of the suggestions that were made. Horn: Don't we have, we've got a forester don't we? We used to. Gerhardt: We work closely with the DNR forester when coming in and reviewing our existing forests when developers come in and develop. They come in and say yeah, this tree can be removed. This one can't. They talk about the thinning of trees. Horn: Who's that forester we used to deal with several years back? Gerhardt: Is it STag. I can't think of his last name. I can only think of his first name. Greg something. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 27 Horn: I think from my perspective I like the concept. What do we need to do tonight? Gerhardt: Tonight, the next step is to solicit to have plans and specifications drawn so that we can go out to the bid process. Horn: What's that cost? Gerhardt: I would say somewhere between $3,000.00 to $5,000.00. Horn: Can we know that for sure? Gerhardt: I can get you that information. It's a matter of taking these concepts and taking them to an architect and them getting the detailed drawings of those out. Material lists. You know putting a whole specification package together. Horn: Do you get bids on that too? Gerhardt: It's going to be comparable to. I mean it's going to take so many hours to do it. It's just like engineering surfaces. Horn: Right. We bid on those. Robbins: But isn't the bid process, isn't the cost of doing business picked up by the bidder rather than by us? You're talking about that $3,000.00 to $5,000.00. In other words, if they come in to make a bid, that's a cost of doing business. Workman: We've got to give them the plan sheets though. Gerhardt: You've got to give them plans. Chmiel: Something to go by, yeah. Gerhardt: For us to get, I mean you can't just give them a drawing and say build this and then, you've got to give them specifications to work off of. We want a 6 foot 6 high wall. We have to give them plans and specifications that show a wall that are 6 foot 6 and letters that are 2 feet 6 inches and you've got to put specifications. You've got to put the limestone. You've got the plantings. The type of plantings you want. Irrigation in that area. Beds and how far down you go with the mulch. How to plant the trees. The size of the block. Foundation. Footings. Horn: It looks like we have several options. We can go for a different plan. We can accept this plan. We can go out for bids on what it would cost to generate these specs or we could approve the specs, or approve going out for. What's your pleasure? Are you willing to commit $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 or do you want to make a motion putting a cap on what it is and we'll reconsider it if the plans and specs come in higher than that? Chmiel: I think we should put a cap on it. Workman: $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 so a $5,000.00 cap? The excess to come from Todd's. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 28 Chmiel: Monthly bonus. Gerhardt: I'm sure that they could do the plans and specifications with the $5,000.00 cap. Workman: I think we have to go for bids. Chmiel: I think $5,000.00 would be a little higher but I'd suggest, as Tom said, get some bids on it. Horn: On doing the plans and specs? Chmiel: Yeah. Horn: Is that a motion? Workman: I'd move it. Chmiel: Second it. Horn: And then the best one has to fall under $5,000.007 Is that part of the motion? Chmiel: Yes. Workman: Are we talking about the actual design? Horn: Drawing the plans and specs. This is not ~ bid on what it costs to build the project. This is just a bid on getting the plans together to go out and bid on the project. Is there a cap of 5 on that then? Wot kmart: Yes. Horn: Okay, then a cap and a second. Nor kmart moved, Chmiel seconded to authorize the preparation of plans and specifications for the streetscape design with a cap of $5,000.00. All voted in favor and the motion carrted unanimously. Horn: As soon as we have that then we can get bids on the whole project. Workman: And we're going with that farmhouse design kind of? Is that where we are or have we still not? Gerhardt: Farmhouse design? Chmiel: For the elements behind it. Workman: The tower. Gerhardt: Yeah, it's this design here. Bernie Hanson: Can I go on record regarding that bell? Chmiel: I think we should become ding-a-lings. Housing and RedeveIopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 29 Horn: Yeah, just what we need is another artificial. Chmiel: No, we can get that wired. Have sounds during different times of the season. The year. July 4th. Gerhardt: of that. We may have to come back for more money for the specifications Horn: Push the button and it does Dixie huh? Chmiel: If you like Dixie. No, I'm thinking Christmas, New Year's, July 4th. Times when there are certain songs that are. Workman: Don't forget about the Jewish community. Chmiel: Come on Dick. Dick Wing: I'm going to urge the, at some point, urge the HRA with a public statement that with the development plans and with traveling to Germany as much as I have the last few years, the thing that really sticks in my mind is church bells at 6:00 or at 7:30 in the morning. If we're going to spend this amount of money on that tower for a corner, to me a bell is irrelevent but an extremely, I forget the word I wanted. It left me for old age, but the aesthetics. The history. Whatever. To have a tower of that size and that expense. I'd like to see a bell in there that's timed to ring at specific times and it becomes a focal point of the city. Workman: When kids should be off the street maybe. 10:00 maybe? 9:30? Horn: I agree it should be something real. I don't think we want to have a PA system that plays chimes and carols and stuff. Gerhardt: We'll bring that product back and have a demonstration here. Horn: We don't want it to compete with St. Hubert's. APPROVAL OF TH~ PRYZ~JS PI~%S~i ~T. Workman: I'd move approval. Robbins: Second. Workman moved, Robbins seconded that the HR~ approve the Purchaae Agreement between the HR~ and John and Sharon Pryzmue. Al! voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. (The tape ran out at this point in the meeting.) CONSIDER Ie~PPRO¥/~L OF THE 1991 BUDGET. Workman moved, Chmiel seconded to approve the Housing and Redevelopment Authority Budget for 1991 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting December 6, 1990 - Page 30 ~PPROV~L OF ~ ~SSIGNM~_NT AND SECURITY AGREEMENT FOR THE EMPAK DEVELOPMENT. chmiel moved, Robbins seconded to approve the Assignment and Security Agreement between the HRA, County 17 Partnership and Bank One, Milwaukee, NA. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. The audio tape was not functioning at this point. ~EVIEW THE CURB ISlaND IN _._E~g~Y~S PARKING' 'LOT. Motion by Bohn, seconded by Horn to direct staff to install traffic control signs exiting and entering Kenny ls parking lot. All voted in favor and the motion-carried. ST~FF UPDATE ON T~__~ DOWNTOWN TRAFFIC UPDATE. This item was tabled until the January, 1991 meeting. APPROV~_L OF OCTOBER AND NOVEMBER, 1990 BILLS. Robbins moved, Workman seconded to approve the Housing and Redevelopment Authority October and November, '1990 bills except for Check #41862 in the ~mount of $465.60 to BRW, Inc. and Check #41999 in the amount of $3,517.98 to BRW, Inc. Ail voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Robbins moved, Workman seconded to adjourn the meeting. &11 voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:30 Submitted by Don Ashworth Executive Director Prepared by Nann Opheim