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1992 02 19CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING FEBRUARY 19, 1992 Chairman batzli called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Ladd Conrad, Matt ledvina, Brian batzli, Jeff Farmakes and Steve Emmings MEMBERS ABSENT: Joan Ahrens STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss, Planning Director; Kate Aanenson, Planner II", Sharmin Al-Jaff, Planner I; Todd Gerhardt, Asst. City Manager; and Dave Hempel, Senior Engineering Technician batzli: We're going to rearrange our agenda briefly, while we're waiting for some technical difficulties to be resolved with our overhead projector. We're going to jump into the old business, organizational items first and take care of those things before we hold our public hearings. ORGANIZATIONAL ITEMS: ADOPTION OF PLANNING COMMISSION BY-LAWS. Batzli: What I'd like to suggest is that we have staff take a look at them and make them gender neutral. Also there is a typographical error somewhere. Someplace here and I can't find my copy now because we skipped ahead here. Does somebody have their copy.handy? - In SecCion 4.1, first paragraph. Third sentence reads, each member shall cast it's ballot for the member he wishes to be chosed for chairman. And I remember. Emmings: What's wrong with that? batzli: Chosed for chairman? Well, first of all there's a he in there and I'd like that to be gender neutral but I would like it to read, eliminate chosed for and have it read, elected as. Any problem with that anybody? And also chairman throughout I think should be chairperson and then wherever it's he, it should be added, or she and there are 'several places throughout. If we can just do that kind of by voice vote tonight. Krauss: We can make those changes. batzli: Okay. Any other changes? So we-need-to adopt the By-laws if somebody would like to make a motion, as amended. Emmings: So moved. Batzli: Second anyone? Conrad: Second. Batzli: It's been moved and seconded that we adopt the Planning Commission By-laws as amended. Emmings moved, Conrad seconded to adopt the Planning Commission By-laws as amended. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 2 LIAISON ATTENDANCE AT CITY COUNCIL MEET)NGS. Batzli: Steve, the last year has been attending just about ali of them and in the past we've rotated. I prefer to rotate I think. I will try to attend as many as possible myself probably but. Erhart: I prefer to have Steve keep doing it. Batzli: Okay, then Steve can just go. Conrad: Oh, you're really squirrely tonight. Batzli: He's not going to make it easy. Conrad: Kind of a freshman chairman. Batzli: That's right. He's going to nail me. I would prefer to see rotation. Is someone against having to go to one out of 7 Council meetings? Conrad: That's probably a smart thing to do. It's also though, what'did you say 8rian? You were going to try and make as many as Possible? Batzli: Yeah. Conrad: The continuity is also real valid, and Steve, what'was your feeling when you were there? Did they call on you quite a ~bit? Did they get to know you and feel confident? Emmings: I went to about 1 out of 7. -And lots of times didn't make it to the planning issues because they tend to come on later. Wasn't really, when I was there and there was a planning.issue, and now we're getting down to kind of a fluke, I didn't think they were, there were only 1 or 2 occasions where they were interested in input from me. Their dynamics are so different than ours that I can't say that while I'thought it was important to be there and watch how they work, I don't think it really gave me much to bring back here. Batzli: But see that's why I would rather have it rotate. Because I would like everybody to at least see the dynamics and how they're resolving some of our issues rather than forcing m'oi or one other person to attend every meeting for that. Because I also have attended a lot of meetings where they don't call on you at all or else they'll note that I'm in the audience. Well why don't we ask him and then somebody else jumps in and so they never end up asking anyway. So you know. Conrad: That's because it's you. Batzli: That could be too. I think the upshot was that we're going to have a rotating. So we need a schedule for rotation among ali the commissioners. Krauss: Okay. From our standpoint we can'do that. The only thing for us is we mail out a Council packet to who's ever going to attend so when you Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 3 get the Council packet. We'll make up a schedule. Batzli: I'd like you to give everybody the schedule also. Krauss: Just as a reminder too. Your proposal that the City undertake'a Highway 5 corridor study is going to be heard at the Council on Monday. So if you wish to be there. LIAISON ATTENDANCE AT HOUSING AND REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY MEETINGS. 8atzli: Our last bit of old business to clean up here, and I note that we've got our overhead so we can move onto our public hearings-after this, is the Liaison at the Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meetings. Is anyone interested in doing that? Ledvina: I'll volunteer. Batzli: Okay. $o in the future Paul, if you can deliver the.packets. Conrad: Before we move on Mr. Chairman, we had a problem with terms. I'm reflecting back on. Batzli: By-laws? Conrad: On By-laws. I'm sorry, just catching up but we-did have a problem with staggering terms. Now with new members,._actually with Matt on board, no. With 4 new appointments, we did stagger them and how .did we '' ~' ' ' "..!. ~ :.. !:,',,-j :- ..,. q.. !.-::..,.~ ~-]~::1. .:.~7-'¢ :.I~)7 :.'¢I,,~t,1~.1 be st.~gg~-:~,..! (,v,:~ ~, 2 years ~or rotation and What have you. We shouldn't end up with what we had the last time. Krauss: You did wind up staggering them. As I recall, Tim was absentlfrom that meeting and got stuck with the longer term. Conrad: And that was perfect. So do we need to adopt something spgcifically to stagger? How do you do this Paul? How are we staggering terms? Krauss: You're doing it by nature of the fact that you serve set time periods now and those time periods are now staggered so. Emmings: They should stay staggered. Krauss: Yeah. As long as somebody leaves early, we make sure that whoever's appointed fills that until the duration of their original appointment and then gets reappointed. .It will all work. You're all at staggered terms now. Conrad: We are? Batzli: So do the 4 people who were just appointed understand the length of their term? I mean are they all being appointed for 3 years? Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 4 Krauss: Why don't I give you at the next meeting that list. I had my secretary make it up. I'll bring it in. Conrad: Okay. But we're not going to get another time where we have 4 appointments at the same year? That's the only thing I want to validate so whether we do it in terms of amending our By-laws or just administratively doing it Paul, I don't care. And I think you've taken' care of it but I just want to make sure. We should not have 4 re-appointments in one year.. Sorry, Mr. Chairman. Batzli: Okay. Is that taken care of then? Conrad: Nobody cared. Batzli: No, I think it's important but I think Paul's going to tell us how we're staggered. I think in the past what happened was there was a lack of record keeping which created part of the problem. It was unsure for example when someone filled in a position where someone h'ad left early, there was a lack of communication of how the length of time that appointment was for. So I think that was part of the problem. There was a turnover in the Planning depar, tment which I think created kind of a lack of records. In any event. -- PUBLIC HEARING: PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 2.107 ACRES INTO 2 SINGLE FAMILy [.OT$ ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF AND LOCATED AT 915 PLEASANT VIEW RQRP, EDWARDS VOGEL SUBDIVISION, SCOTT EDWARDS AND DAVID VOGEL. Public Present: Name Address. Scott Edwards Daryl Fortier Applicant Representing Frank Beddor .. Kate Aanenson presented the staff report on this item. Batzli: Just for my own education, when we'~e treating'something as a flag lot, normally on a flag lot aren't they sharing a common drive? Aanenson: You don't have to, no. There's a private drive, you can have up to 4 homes but the only addition on the flag lot would be the side yard setback which have to be 20 and that lot significant. What you do is take the frontage back to a depth of where it's a square lot. You wouldn't include this piece right here. You'd take the frontage based right there which he has over 120 feet. 125 feet and the minimum would be 100 so. Technically you can't develop on a lot that doesn't have public frontage. 8atzli: Right. So you're treating it as a flag lot solely for the purpose of allowing them to subdivide it? Is that what you mean? Aanenson: Yeah. That he does have access. He does have enough frontage further back in even though it's not on the public street. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 5 8atzli: Is the applicant here and want to say anything at this time or do you agree with the staff report? Scott Edwards: Yes. My only question was the need for...7 feet on Pleasant View... Batzli: Okay. Are you actually the applicant? Scott Edwards: Yes. Batzli: So you're Scott Edwards? Okay. No one else wants to speak at this time. Okay. Daryl Fortier: I'm Daryl Fortier representing Frank Beddor who's the adjacent property owner. Batzli: Can you come up to the podium please. Daryl Fortier: I'm Oaryl Fortier. I'm representing Frank 8eddor, Jr. who is the property owner of the Vineland lots immediately adjacent to the west. We're in favor of it providing access off of Outlot B which is the staff recommendation. My only question tonight is who currently owns Outlot A? Your staff report says someone is, Mr. Cunningham would like to purchase it. The question is from whom? Aanenson: The developer of Vineland Forest Subdivision. Daryl Fortier: Alright, thank you. Aanenson: And that was created just so there was an existing home on Vineland Forest. That was just created so that person could have a drive and they don't even need it anymore. Emmings: Say Daryl? Daryl Fortier: Yes. Emmings: On the Vineland Forest plat, you had a similar issue over the 7 feet. Extra 7 feet along Pleasant View Road, isn't that riQhf? Do you remember that? Oaryl Fortier: That's correct. Emmings: You didn't want to give that to us either but you did, didn't you? Daryl Fortier: Actually it was on Troendle. Vineland did not give up the 7 feet. Troendle plat did. Emmings: Oh, okay. It was .Troendle. Daryl Fortier: I believe it was deemed as an oversight on the Vineland plat. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 6 Emmings: Yeah, you're right. Aanenson: Those three lots. Batzli: Anyone else want to speak to this matter at this time? Erhart moved, Conrad seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. Batzli: Tim, do you want to lead us off? Erhart: Yeah, what's Outlot B? Why does that City want that? What is it used for now? Aanenson: Utility easements is what we'd like to maintain ownership for. Erhart: Okay, you still have those easements though if you allow this to be used as a driveway? Hempel: It's currently owned by the City, Outlot 8 is. We do not, with the plat we do not have any drainage or utility'easements over it because we own the property. Erhart: I know but yOUlWOUld maintain the right to go over that? Hempel: Undoubtedly an agreement the City Attorney would'prepare. Erhart: That's your intention here? Hempel: That's right. Erhart: Okay, essentially he's getting almost like a driveway easement then? Aanenson: Right. Erhart: And moving the property line to the south i0 feet, you feel that's required because the rear yard setback, because the house actually faces east. There is no way to view it' as the back yard being the west property line? Aanenson: Even if it's the rear, the supplementary regs"as far as this. .. Krauss: Yes, it's frontage is on Pleasant View regaYdless'of which way the house if oriented. Aanenson: But even so, the size of that garage, because it's almost, well it's 755 square feet and an accessory structure has to be less than 400 to be get that benefit of being up closer to the setback. If we interpret it- the other way. Erhart: Item nqmber 3. You say you want a landscaping and tree preservation and home placement plan at the time the subdivision is done. Isn't that normally done with the building permit application?- Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 7 Aanenson: Home placement plan be submitted? Erhart: What you're trying to do now is essentially tie down where the home is going to be? Aanenson: Well he's going to submit a home building plan. Krauss: It's in the building permit. Erhart: Okay, does that have'to be in here as a requirement then? Krauss: Yeah. It's here as a requirement and it's tripped when they come in for a building permit. We can't add requirements to building permits unilaterally. Erhart: You want to do it in here? Aanenson: Condition of the subdivision. Erhart: Should that state to be submitted with the building permit? Krauss: Sure. Erhart: And item number 5. Who pays for that sanitary sewer and'water brought to the property? , Hempel: That would be paid for at time of building permit application. Erhart: 8y the applicant? Hempel: 8y the applicant. Erhart: Okay, I would read this as, the City just assume responsibility for it. The way the condition reads. -Maybe it's not an issue. If I was the applicant, that's the way I'd read it. And 7 additional feet,'what total right-of-way does that give us then on that side. of it? Aanenson: It would be half of the 80 so it'd. be a 40 foot half width. Erhart: 40 foot half width? Aanenson: So we still need 7 on the other side. Erhart: Okay, that's pretty good for Pleasant View. That's the one that's all chopped up isn't it? That's all the questions I've got. Conrad: I agree with staff report. Ledvina: No questions. Emmings: I agree with the staff report. Farmakes: No further comments. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page $ Batzli: Have we ever granted driveway easements-over outlots that we own for access purposes before? Aanenson: I spoke with Roge~ and he said that that shouldn't be a problem but not that I know of. Batzli: Is this setting a precedent that the city has to do.this everytime we get a landlocked? Krauss: What was unusual in this case was that we thought a'head enough when we platted the Vineland Forest to know. that some kind of provision there was required and we just took possession of it. It's somewhat of an unusual situation in that regard. We've only allowed access to lots via private driveway for the last year and a half so it probably is the first time we've done it this way but that's the reason. Batzli: Is there any problem allowiDg access points onto Nez Perce, either because it's on the curb or because it's close to the house to the, whichever way to the right on the map is. Is that south? Aanenson: To the south, yeah. We looked at that. The way the driveways line up and the homeowner came in 'and.spoke with me on that one and it looks like it shouldn't conflict with his driveway at all. Batzli: Okay. Aanenson: But there was a concern .but actually the best sight distance was right at that corner. The other-way to develop it would be, I mean if they combine private-driveways and come out on Pleasant View but we felt like it makes more sense to put it onto Nez Perce and allow more access onto Pleasant View. It will be a Class II and 80 foot wide. Batzli: I guess my only comments are, I agree with the staff report. I'd like to see that several technical things happen when somebody makes the motion, including that the plans are included in the motion somewhere. That item number 1 reads so that the existing home meets the setback standards. I think we're talking about proposed Lot 1 or the garage and not necessarily the existing home. 3ust so that it's clear as to. what we're trying to do there. And then an-additional 7 feet of right-of-way, they're not giving us anything under this subdivision other than the 7 feet right? So it's not necessarily an additional 7 feet. They're just giving us 7 feet that isn't shown on the plan?' Aanenson: Right. 8atzli: Okay. I'd accept a motion. Erhart: I'll move that the Planning Commission recommend to City Council that we approve Subdivision ~92-2 as shown on the plans dated January 21, 1992 with the following conditions. Item number 1, delete the word home and substitute Lot 1 as shown on the plans. Item 3 to add the phrase, at the time of the building permit. ~nd item 5, the phrase that stat.es that the expense is the responsibility of the developer. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 9 Conrad: Second. Erhart moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Subdivision #92-2 as sho~n on the plans dated 3anuary 21, with the following conditions= 1. The proposed property line for the lot split be moved a minimum of 10 feet to the south so that the existing Lot 1 meets the setback standards of the RSF zone. 2. Lot 2 gain access by receiving a right to use Outlot B to Nez Perce from the city. 3. A landscaping, tree preservation and home placement plan be submitted at the time of the building permit fQr staff review and approval. 4. At the time of building permit issuance of Lot 2, Block 1, a connection charge in the amount of $7,732.68 (1992 balance) should be collected. 5. The City will provide and install sanitary sewer and water to. the property, at the developer's expense, at the time the building permit is issued for Lot 2. 6. The applicant shall dedicate to the City by final plat an additional 7 feet of right-of-way along Pleasant View Road. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC HEARING: AMERICANA COMMUNITY BANK LOCATED AT THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF WEST 79TH STREET AND MARKET 80ULEVARD: A. PRELIMINARY PLAT TO REP~-AT ~OT 7, B~OCK 1. CROSSROADS PLAZA INTO ONE LOT. S. SITE PLAN REVIEN FOR A 7.26S SQUAR[ FOOT (2 STORY) ~UI~,DIN~ FOR PHR~E I AND PHASE II CONSISTING OF 4,~00 SQUARE FEET. Sharmin Al-Jarl presented the staff report o'n this item. 8atzli: Engineering, do you want to comment at this time before we hear from the applicant or about the traffic study or anything? Hempel: As Sharmin had pointed out Mr. Chairman, kind of a last minute traffic study by the City's traffic engineer consultants, Strgar-Roscoe- Fausch, they had prepared the downtown traffic study so they're quite familiar with our future land use and potential number of cars using Market Blvd.. We also have the Eastern Carver County Transportation study that was prepared, in the year 2010 and full development, they estimated 7,400 trips per day on the street. That had engineering somewhat concerned with a full access onto Market Blvd.. Based on their calculations that Str~ar- Roscoe performed, if future land uses intensify in the downtown area, we may have to relook at this intersection. If the number of accidents become Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page lO excessive, the City would like to reserve a condition that if there are excessive accidents, that we have a right to limit or restrict that access to a right-in/right-out only and reconstruct the center median area. Batzli: Would you like to give a presentation now? Randy $chultz: Good evening. My name is Randy Schultz. I'm President of the Americana Community Bank. We're here tonight to show you a design for a site plan of a building project that we'd like to put down on Nest 79th and Market Blvd.. We have an artist drawing here of what we think the building will look like. Would be pretty close to. We also have a board on the floor here that would show you some of the materials that we'd expect the building to be made out of. Just like to say that we think it'd be a very attractive building. We think it'd be the kind of building the' City of Chanhassen would be proud of to have right there on that main intersection coming into the community and we look forward to constructing the building and doing business in Chanhassen. As far as ~ny questions, I'll turn it over to our architect Kim Jacobsen to tell you more about the .building. Thank you, Kim. Kim Jacobsen: As you remember we came in before you last time with a gray building I think when we were here. It was redone. It came back ~o being a building that was technically Phase I. It was on a different site. Opportunity came about and we said we'd like to add Phase II. It was always planned but this was what developed in Phase II. We're still trying to keep some of the downtown character. I think that was one of the goals we tried to feel and wanted to have a building we'd feel comfortable in town. So we kept a roof...we have the Timberline shingles, we're feeling comfortable with it. We've got an exterior material that is a masonary material. It's stucco type of material. It has a .color to it. We've got a rock faced block that goes down...to tie the building down. Overall we received fairly favorable comments. Put awnings on it to kind of keep the sum shade out and give it some color and feel. That in a nutshell is our building. We did a plaza out in front. Put flagpole there. There is a big fountain across the street and our earlier proposal had a fountain in it but we felt it would not really fit with the large spray across the · street to have something that was fairly small. And we developed our parking and everything predicated on the parking movements and movements on the site. If there's questions, I'll sure... There's some tiles for color. There's some inserts of tiles that are going to...building to just kind of break it up a little bit. Ne do have some signage that...over the entranceway. Erhart: When will you see completion? Kim Jacobsen: We would like to get started, you know if 'everything goes well, middle of April through the end of April at the latest. I figure 4 or 5 months until completion so August. July or August... Batzli: Does anyone else have any questions r'ight now? Some might come up I guess. I guess no one else is here for the public bearing. If someone would like to. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 11 Erhart moved, Conrad seconded to close the public hearing. Ail voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. Batzli: Jeff, what do you think? Farmakes: The building I guess it's an improvement over the original building. I guess I appreciate the fact that they made an effort to not be the same as some of the other development, buildings in the interpretation I think I talked about that before. Basically being a carry on an identical building because I think the city loses out with that. Particularly with an opportunity to have an upper end building in an important location in the city. I always have been uncomfortable with reading that it should be compatible with retail development that's going on. It seems to me we're limited ourselves. I see the definition of compatible as being, doesn't clash with. Not the same as. And it's a far friendlier building than the original that I've seen. I guess I would have liked to have seen maybe a bit more of the detailing of the plaza. It seems like it can be again a nice feature and a key corner. I have not had the opportunity to look at some of your drawings a little closer. But it looks like a major improvement. The signage area, I think for the size of the building, that the signage is appropriate. I do have a question in regards to the, who is the other tenant in the building? Does the tenant want that too? Klm Jacobsen: There is leaseable space right now. 1, 2 or 3 tenants. The bank will have about 2/3 of the main floor. The upper floor and the last 1/3 of the south side facing 79th. Street would be leaseable space. Farmakes: Right now it shows that the Americana Community Bank on the monument sign is very, very small. Is tenant 1 you'and then tenant 2 another leases or would it be two other tenants? Klm Jacobsen: It would be Joe Smoe's whatever and somebody else's whatever. Farmakes: Okay. So the monument sign would primarily then be for your tenant? Klm Jacobsen: For tenant only... Batzli: Does that fit in with what the sign task force is looking at? Farmakes: Well, that's still pretty fluid. Real fluid as a matter of fact. We've just begun that but .I don't want to hedge on that because I'm one member out of many that my. preference would be that the monument sign reflect the major tenant of the building. .But I don't believe our present ordinance is that. Batzli: What do you think about the turn in, turn out? Did you take a look at that? Do you have a feeling about that? Farmakes: I would leave that up to the engineers. I can see that that may o be a problem when the area's entirely developed. That's a difficult read for me considering that basically right now a lar'~e extent of that area is Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 12 empty. And I don't think that that street is very heavily used right now. But I think once that development is in place, it will see far more traffic. That will be main street. I have no further comments' Emmings: All and all, we've seen most of this before and we'.re just moving it to a different site and it looks fine to me. I wondered if the parking information that's in here, they're required to have 30 and they're providing 36. It says in this report. Now is that based on just Phase I or is that both? Al-Jarl: With Phase II, they would need 47 spaces. They will be providing 52. $o they're fine. Emmings: Okay. So that's fine. Alright. I think that's all I've got. It is. Oh, and the hard surface coverage also, it says 62~ and there's a 65A requirement. The 62~ is both phases? Al-Jarl: I think it's Phase I only. They will be very close to 65~. Dave tried to calculate the hard surface coverage and he was very close to 65~. Emmings: $o it looks like it's alright? Al-Jarl: Yes. They're still fine. We did a very quick check-up with Phaes II before we came down here. Not all the information is in the report that we gave you but they are fine. Emmings: Okay. That's it. Ledvina: I had a question regarding the engineering staff and their - recommendation regarding two traffic accidents. It doesn't state the time period. Eventually two traffic accidents are going to occur. $o is this a year or ? Hempel: That's correct. That was an oversight on our part. We're looking at a 12 month period. .. Ledvina: Okay. I'm a little bit confused about the number of tenants that would be in this building. Would there just be Americana and then one other tenant or Americana and potentially a group Of other-businesses? Randy Schultz: ...we're not sure at this point. Ne have lease space and of course we're going to obviously try to find good, suitable tenants and we'd like to have as few tenants as possible._ The building will be designed, it will be able to accommodate a large tenant or another smaller tenant. How that will shake out I don't know. Ledvina: No other comments. Conrad: It looks good. The impervious surface or the-hard surface, as I look at the map it doesn't-look. It looks like there's a lot of hard surface on the diagram so I just want to make sure. We did the calculation today or when did we do the calculation for everything including Phase II? Hempel: Approximately 2 weeks ago. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 13 Conrad: But you're pretty confident we're Close? Hempel: Very close. Conrad: Okay. The question on future parking. The site north of the drive thru. Is that a bermed area? -That's grassy and we'll convert it to parking? Klm Jacobsen: Right now in order to Phase II in, that already will be bermed. Conrad: Is there grass there at all or is that just parking? Is that just hard surface parking then? .. Batzli: Are you looking at the new set of plans? Conrad: I'm looking at whatever Tim has here. That is grass, okay. Kim Jacobsen: In the plaza design, the amount of hard surface 'in the plaza has been cut down. There is a design...landscaped and it comes back in and it's full of plantings, has a seating area to it. That was done as representation of the plaza... We've actually cut down on the hard surface area or soften it a lot. I've got it along if you'd, like to. Conrad: Well yeah. Is it easy to? As they're'doing that, our left in off of Market 81vd., if we were to, what do we do? Do we create 'a left turn lane then or is that just a left turn from, as we're going south, is 'that just a left turn from one of the two lanes-that are there or how do we handle that traffic? Hempel: Prior to this bank proposal there was another one, Crossroads Sank. They had looked at originally a full access also I believe. The original Market 81vd. construction plans showed a median going all the way up to the railroad tracks and a standard width of the road. Since that bank proposal they lpoked at cutting back the center median and also putting a tapered end on the west side of Market 81vd. to expand the'lane width. This taper here was expanded to allow for left turns into here. Into the bank site and also to swing traffic around the median. Actually there are two lanes capable up here. A 12 foot lane... What happens with the expanded driveway, if we allow the wider cut. .We are cutting back the median and it's kind of a short taper zone then. When you're driving south on Market. It's actually below design standards right now. Staff looked at, originally sat down and looked at this and on a quick note, we thought well if we're going to have a left turn lane or allow a left turn onto southbound Market, it might be a good idea to provide an extra lane width in the access. So we have a right out, a left turn and. one lane in. After rethinking that, we believe the site will function properly with just a two lane entrance. One lane in, one lane out. If stacking becomes a problem on left turn lane, they can loop back through the site and exit out to 79th Street which is the desired out anyway. Conrad: So we don't end up with a left turn lane coming '~n? Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 14 Hempel: Yes we would. That can be striped. Right now it is a painted median out there. That would have to be revised. Conrad: Did you find the? Batzli: Yeah. It's still at this end. It's coming around. Farmakes: I have just a quick question. Is this relatable in size to the site plan that we have on page 17 Kim Jacobsen: Pardon me? Farmakes: How does this relate in size? I notice a difference in what I'm seeing here. Kim Jacobsen: It's a 1 to 30 and the other one is 1 to 40 so you're at different scales there. That's a working drawing. Batzli: Do you want to take about a 2 minute recess whiie you get a chance to look at this and look at what we're doing here? · I think there's been a lot of changes and I wouldn't mind taking a short break just to try and figure out what changes this is. (The Planning Commission took a short recess at this point in the meeting.) Batzli: Ladd, we were right in the middle of you and your discussion. Conrad: I'm done. I think I feel comfortable with what I see. I do. No more questions. Erhart: Where's, the bank customer, where's the predominant parking when you want to go in and make a large withdrawal? Who parks in the north parking lot? Where the 16 stalls are. That's employees? Kim Jacobsen: Employees and some leased major' tenant that would come in. Same thing with the far easterly stalls...most of-those are again for employees or tenants of the building parking. Randy Schultz: Employees will be asked to park as far from the butldtng as possible. Erhart: Right, okay. Batzli: Is there a rear entrance to the building? Kim Jacobsen: It's.not a public rear entrance. It would.be a person would walk into the lockable entrance. Randy Schultz: You can enter off of the plaza. That would be an entrance. Erhart: But that's the only entrance so if you're parking on .the east end, you have to walk around the front? Randy $chultz: No, no. That's the main entrance to the building. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 15 Erhart: Oh, it's not from the plaza? Krauss: It's got two entrances. Kim Jacobsen: The main entrance to the building would be right off this parking lot into that entrance there. Erhart: Into the bank? Kim Jacobsen: Into the bank or actually into a leased space. Erhart: What about into the bank? Kim Jacobsen: Into the bank, this direction also. Erhart: So you can get into the bank from both directions? Kim Jacobsen: You can get into the bank fwom both directions. You' can get into the leased space from... 8atzli: $o are people from the parking lot then cutting through the drive thru traffic if they're parking in the north stalls? Kim Jacobsen: They shouldn't be. It's two way traffic on that northern route. Krauss: No, but I see what you're saying and yes, that's a possibility but what we're talking about doing is probably an oversight on our part but we have typically labeled more inappropriate-stalls as employee parking only forcing those folks to park in places that might be a little more hazardous. Like the ones just to the outside of the drive up should definitely be employee parking only. You want to free up the best spaces in front of the door. Kim Jacobsen: That parking up there has actually been created. They have a room which may operate as a community room or as a service room for the bank and that appears off the plaza and that would be open late hours. In other words it might be open until 9:00 or 10:00. The drive thru would traditionally close at 5:00 or 6:00. 7:00, whatever. It's really to serve late night if someone comes into that room and uses it. Conrad: Sidewalk on both those streets? Kim Jacobsen: There's an existing sidewalk on-Market and yeah, we're being asked and we will put in a sidewalk on 79th. Erhart: On the parking lot adjacent to the bank but on the east side, is that for people who are going to be coming and going frequently? Kim Jacobsen: Yes. It would be customers that either bank or the lease... Erhart: That's a lot of turning in there isn't it? Dave do you see that. as well designed? Or acceptable. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 16 Hempel: It appears acceptable. Any kind of banking facility like that you're going to have a lot of vehicles moving. Pedestrian traffic is always a concern. Erhart: I understand the movement. It just seems you've got to turn in and all of a sudden you've almost got to turn like it's almost another entrance onto another street to turn into that parking lot. I see a lot of potential for conflict there. Almost create a lot. Kim Jacobsen: It's not a major street. It's a parking lot. Traffic's moving at 5 to 10 mph. I don't see internal problems... A lot cleaner than the last one we brought to you. Erhart: Well yeah. A lot of turns but I'll leave that up to Dave. What are the awnings, that's awnings I think on there. I'm gettin~ old. I can't see so good. Is it awnings right? Klm Jacobsen: Yes. Erhart: What's the material? What's the life of the material? durability? Color or Kim Jacobsen: 3 to 5 years on an awning. Erhart: Really? Kim Jacobsen: A.commercial'awning. It should be lO years but I would never tell anybody that. They'll tell you l0 years. Erhart: When it fades and starts looking ratty, who's responsible to get it changed? Kim Jacobsen: The bank. It's got an image. You're not going to stick dollars into a bank without an awning. I mean I think that'.s the. biggest thing you've got. You've got tenants... Erhart: You're not a savings and loan right? Randy Schultz: No, it's not a savings and loan. We're a bank. A year or two from now you may not think... Erhart: Is staff satisfied with the awnings issue? Non-issue? Krauss: It really is a self controlling problem. If it got notoriously bad and we had to interact, I mean the property owner has an obligation to maintain the property in the condition you approved it. $o theoretically we could go after somebody if it became a problem. Emmings: Are we approving it with awnings? out here. An artist rendering. I mean we've got a drawing Krauss: Yeah. It's part of the architectural'elevations. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 17 Emmings: Okay. Does it appeQr in the plans too? The plans ~hat we-'re approving? Kim Jacobsen: Yes, definitely. The elevations...face south and leave those windows exposed, we're going to have a real heat problem. Farmakes: There are no graphics on those? Krauss: I think one important thing that you need to recognize on this site is that it's a corner site. It's a little more difficult to develop but I think there's a real advantage with this site plan over the Crossroads. I don't know if the Crossroads appeared in your packet but Crossroads had all the drive thru was on the corner and the building was further back. It had less conflict in terms of the parking lot but your main view of the place was a drive up window which really was not all that appealing and I think this with the plaza and the building and everything' behind it is a lot more attractive. Emmings: It also made you feel a little insecure to have a bank with wheels underneath it. Erhart: Okay, I've just one last question. Maybe somebody asked this. The plaza, the material itself, is that a non-slip? Kim Jacobsen: Yeah, we're going to use a crushed concrete and exposed aggregate mix. Erhart: Oh, 'so it's not tile? Kim Jacobsen: No tile...so we're keeping it so it will be non-slip. Erhart: Okay. Looks good to me. Conrad: 90~ of your business would be drive thru traffic probably? Randy Schultz: Usually 60~ to 80~. Conrad: 60~ to 80~, okay. The only thing that really bothers me about the plan is that little bit of a cross street. You know most of the folks will be going through your 3 drive thru stalls and our engineer has looked at it' and he's comfortable with the taffic alignment on the north side of the property. Just, and you've probably thought about it. You've got cars backing up into the inbound lanes and I know why you've got those parking stalls with the berm on the south. However, would it make any sense to put the berm on the north of those parking stalls so you don't.have folks backing up into the inbound? Krauss: But then you would have them trying to back out into what may be standing traffic in front of. Conrad: The drive thru. Maybe. There looks to be space there. 8atzli: Isn't that the truck lane? Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page lB Kim Jacobsen: ...I think that northern road really is for employee parking. If I went into the bank I would probably come back out of that parking lot and exit back onto 79th Street... Conrad: Most of the traffic is drive thru-and most of the traffic will be coming from Market Blvd., that's why you want to be on that left end I assume. Klm Jacobsen: I think that most your traffic's going to come from going home. It's going to be a normal drive thru is 3:00 to' 6:00 peak time. They're going to be coming off of TH 5. They're going to be right turning in. My guess is once you do it once, you're going to turn in on 79th and drive thru. It's going to take one time and you're going to find people go to the easiest way. Conrad: Yeah. So your premise is, most will be coming from TH 5 and then you're right. They will go to 79th. If they come in from downtown, they're going to be coming in, they're going to take your northerly access off of Market Blvd.. Kim Jacobsen: And I really think that if you think about your normal traffic pattern when you go to.your bank, it is normally on your way home. At least for me it always is. Batzli: You get a lot of traffic Saturday mornings though and that will probably be the other way. Conrad: Well you've thought 'it through.' Batzli: Tim, did you have anything else? Erhart: No. Batzli: Okay. We were given a look at the new plaza but it's nowhere on our plans. How do we make sure that that gets into what we approve tonight, if that's what the applicants are going to do and we all like that new concept? Krauss: I don't know if that sheet was dated or anything but you can reference it in your recommendation to make sure it gets approved. Maybe I should explain why, I mean we don't usually like-to bring these things that are, have loose ends dangling but we've worked with this grdup for quite a while to get them into the city. We've got a good' working relationship with them. Because only due to some unfortunate delays with Market Square they would be open already and We've really been trying to work with them on their schedule as much as we.can to facilitate this thing moving through. So we apologize for some of the loose ends but that's the reason for it. Batzli: Okay. On a technical matter here, we simultaneously I assume are withdrawing approval of the site plan for the Crossroads Bank? Al-Jarl: True. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, ~992 - Page 19 Batzli: And since we've given them approval, we're taking something away from them. Does the City have it in writing that they are not planning on proceeding or something so we're not? Krauss: Todd Gerhardt is here and can explain the status of it but the HRA controls the property. Crossroads has no interest in it any longer. Their option agreement lapsed and the sole control is vested in the HEA. Batzli: Okay. So we don't have a problem with withdrawing their approval? Okay. I guess I'd like to see the 16 sta'lls to the north labeled employee parking only, just so that we don't have people traffic through the drive thru. Krauss: Would it be acceptable to label it employee and tenant parking? Batzli: Yeah. Just so we don't have people going inte the building through that traffic there I think makes sense. People are filling out their check stubs or what have you in their car waiting in line and sometimes they're not paying a lot of attention to people darting between the cars if they're trying to get that front door. I didn't have any other comments that haven't already been discussed. I'd entertain a motion. And I assume when, whoever does make the motion, that we'll be going off the February 19th revised application? Emmings: That's what they've given us. We're talking here about the, we're not doing anything on the subdivision? I'd move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Site Plan #92-1 as shown on the site plan dated February 19, 1992 and subject to the conditions in the updated staff report that is also dated February 19, 1992 with the addition that additional condition that Brian mentioned. That the north 16 parking stalls be labeled for employee or tenant parking only. Batzli: Did you want to include anything about the modified plaza? Emmings: I don't know how to reference it I guess. It doesn't have a date. I guess let's do this. As an additional condition I will say that the plans for the plaza ought to be submitted to the staff for approval. I don't know w~at else to do. Batzli: Sounds good to me. Is there a second? Erhart: Before that I've got a question here. Item 9. Applicant receive a Watershed District permit. Why is that required? Krauss: That's a normal requirement for-any development that disturbs more than one acre of ground. In this case the Watershed District may well tell them a permit is not required because it fits into our overall downtown drainage system. Erhart: Okay, with that I'll second it. Emmings moved, Erhart seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Site Plan Review #92-1 as sh~n o. the site plan dated February 19, 1992, subject to the followin~ conditions: Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 20 · The applicant must obtain a sign permit prior to erecting any signage on site· Stop signs shall be installed at both exit points located on Market Boulevard and Nest 79th Street. · Landscaping along the north edge of the site must be modified to meet all requirements of the railroad. The applicant shall provide staff with a detailed cost estimate of landscaping to be used'in calculating the required financial guarantees. These guarantees must be posted prior to building permit issuance. Provide a plant schedule indicating the size and .type of all plant materials for staff approval. ~ · The applicant shall enter into a Site Development Contract with the city and provide the necessary financial securities to guarantee installation of the required public improvements and costs associated with the traffic study· · Revise architectural plans as follows: a. Incorporate the use of Timberline or similar quality shingles that provide an image of a cedar shake roof. b. Provide details of building exterior treatment. 5. A grading and drainage plan including storm sewer calculations for a 10 year storm event prepared by a professional engineer shall be submitted to the City Engineer for review and approval. 6. The applicant shall indicate on the site plan utilities proposed for the building and additional fire hydrants in the vicinity. · · · The applicant shall include construction of the driveway aprons, median improvements, sidewalk and boulevard restoration in the site-plan improvements. Ail boulevard restoration, sidewalks, driveway aprons and median improvement shall be constructed in accordance with the latest edition of the City's Standard Specifications.. Detailed plans and specifications shall be prepared by a Professional Engineer and- submitted for approval by the City Engineer. The applicant shall be responsible for any damage to the City's existing sidewalk along Market Boulevard. The applicant shall receive a Watershed District permit and comply with all conditions of the permit. , 10. The northerly 16 parking stalls shall be labeled "Employee and Tenant Parking Only". 11. Plans for the plaza shall be submitted to city.staff for approval. · All voted in favor and the motion carried. Batzli: I think we need a motion.on the withdrawal of the Crossroads. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, [992 - Page 2l Emmings: ! will move the Planning Commission recommend the withdrawal of approval of Site Plan #89-6 for the Crossroads National Bank building. The applicant should file the notice of withdrawal against the property at Carver County. I'm not sure I understand that. Batzli: Which applicant needs to file that? Emmings: Yeah. A1-3aff: The Americana Bank would. Batzli: Should we put that in our other motion? -That probably should have gone in our earlier motion that they need to file that notice but. Emmings: Well we've got it here. Batzli: Okay. Is there a second? Conrad: I second. Emmings moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission recommend the withdrawal of approval of Site Plan ~89-6 for the Crossroads National Bank building. The applicant, ~mericana Community Bank, should file the notice of withdrawal against the property at Carver'County. All voted in favor and the motion carried. .' Krauss: Could I propose another agenda change? We have Todd Gerhardt waiting for an item. I think it's an item you may find a little bit interesting anyway. It will get Todd home at a reasonable time.. Erhart: Can we vote on that? Batzli: Okay, we can vote. All in favor of moving up to new business to previous to the PUD stuff signify by saying aye.. Ledvina voted in favor, the rest opposed, ' Batzli: Why don't we do that first. So Todd, why don't you go ahead with your modified tax increment financing district. ADOPT RESOLUTION STATING THAT MOOIFICAT)ON PRO~RAM FOR DEVELOPMENT DISTRICT NO. 2, MODIFICATION OF PLAN FOR TAX INCREMENT FINANCING DISTRICT NO. 2-~; AND ADOPTION OF PLAN FOR TAX INCREMENT FINANCING DISTRICT NO. 2-2, IS CONSISTENT WITH THE CITY'S COMPREHENSIVE PL/%N.' Gerhardt: The first item I have in front of you is a modification to development district No. 2 and modification to tax increment plan No. 2-1 and creating a new district called 2-2. And you're saying, what is all this? In the past the City Council who is acting as the Economic Development agency for the city of Chanhassen, created a district is what we call the McGlynn District which is 2-1, highlighted in the blue. Approximately 2-3 months ago the Planning Commission approved an expansion to the industrial park called Chanhassen Business Center, which is highlighted in the red called 2-2. To get businesses like McGlynn, Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 22 Rosemount and those, cities have to b~ competitive with the Shakopee"s and the Chaska's in creating economic development districts to assist businesses in writing down public improvements. Roads, sanitary sewer, water and special assessments. As a part of that, staff is recommending to the City Council that you create a new district called 2-2 and expanding the boundary, the development boundary which is the heavy black line so that increment dollars from district 2-1 can be used to buy a middle school site. In your guide plan you highlighted a piece of property located north of the Timberwood as a future school site for the City of Chanhassen, District 112. Paul's got some maps that lay out and 'we're going to probably have come back a modification to your land use plan. That site no longer can support a middle school for some of the facility needs that Chaska or District 112 is looking at. Do you want to highlight? Krauss: Yeah, maybe I should touch on this. First let me say that by your approving the tax increment plan tonight in'no way are you authorizing changes to the Comp Plan. We just wamt you to know what is current, and what's happening out there. Some of you may be aware of the fact that the City Manager and I and Tom Workman sit on a committee that the School District established to get a handle on the future growth'needs. We did that to keep in mind you do have a middle school site located here which is part of our comprehensive plan. And fit into what Ne were looking for in terms of breaking up the TH $ corridor area in terms of making sure we had a residential feel. Initially the school district's architect told us' that a 40 acre site would be sufficient. We went out and visited a few of them, that one included. They felt that that would meet their needs. We're now getting down to more of the nitty gritty and we'fifid a couple things. First we find that the State has apparently established different guidelines or more strenuous guidelines for school sites and they're really looking like, if the State allows you to build a new school, they want the school site to be able to accommodate growth until the next milleniun and you basically have to provide an extensive amount of athletic fields. And the site required to accommodate the school itself has to be pretty, 40 or 50 acres for the school still but it's got to be 40 or 50 acres. What we found, in fact we found when Ryan Oevelopment had prepared a preliminary program to develop an office/industrial park up there, we looked at the land that was left for the school site. Save that tnfor~ation to the school district's architect and he came back to us-and said the school won't fit there anymore. Now what I've done here is kind of just sketched up two alternative scenarios. The first one' is kind of,. it's what's i'n the comprehensive plan right now. Showing the school over to the northeast corner of Timberwood. McSlynn sits right here. What you've already improved is land up to the east bank or the east channel of Bluff Creek as office industrial. The land beyond that was residential. I'm sure you... extensive discussions with Timberwood. and all that. Where is the' road going to go and all that. Well, the Council, I know I mentioned this to you several times, when the Council adopted the Comp Plan they kept your residential designation in front of Timberwood entact but provided an alternate scenario that a very high quality office, industrial park developer could achieve. They met I-think it's 5 particularly strenuous criteria. Well Ryan Development's been working with us to do-that so essentially this infill portion over here between the two branches of the- creek, up to the former school site, could and possibly would be developed into a park and office Dark... We had been working with Ryan to do this... Planning Commission Meeting February i9, 1992 - Page 23 school site but we found a couple things. First of all we found that the road goes back even further but we originally had shown, by me meaning Mark Koegler and myself, originally had shown the road down near Timberwood. I believe we had one resident in Timberwood who objected to it and the road was kicked up north. The road really wants tlo be further south. We're looking at the stacking distances that you have over here but .if the school went here, you couldn't put the road up there because there's no place to stack school buses come out and realistically the road wants ito hang south. Except for right in here where there's a wetland but there's a way to bring the road through. We now have better information. $o this is basically the status quo. This is what the comprehensive plan says now. This is what Ryan has been working with us on to date. Again the problem is the school district is telling us that it won't fit. And we've even looked at massaging this around. Todd met with Zak Johnson, the school district's architect who's working with us on expanding the school site out~to this area and wrapping it around Timberwood and the terrain just gets very tough. You've got creek channels. You've got a wetland. It becomes too discontiguous for the school site to work effectively. $0 what we're doing right now is looking to work for alternative scenarios to achieve a similar goal but still allow for sufficient school to be developed. And I'm showing this to you for informational purposes only. We're not requesting that you change anything now. We're not even positive it works but what this does is locate the school on the land, the 35 acres that McGlynn's has open right now plus other land between the McSlynn site and the creek. This ~ap is a little bit out of scale over here. There's actually more land here than it would appear but it's quite'flat land. It's also very prominent land as you're traveling down the corridor. Wrapping single family residential around the Timberwood project which is-consistent with - what we've been trying to do all along because the road coming in is a way to bring this road through. In fact we've been working with a developer on this property down here and if the plans go ahead, they'll include provisions for this road connection to come around the corner so we can service residential development there. Preserving a creek corri'dor which is consistent with what we've always wanted to do ..... so we can generate enough revenue to secure the school site because it"s certainly not cheap. And also be a sufficient amount of office/industrial development remaining. We wind up shifting that component over to the former school site. Now the premise here that this is better than normal quality stuff. That's What the comprehensive plan says. It basically said.that it'd have to walk like an office, talk like an office...qualify for tax increment but it's going to be brick and glass construction most of it. It's goi-ng to be very, very attractive stuff. Well in fact we've been working with Bill Morrish who you met last time on some alternate designs. He hasn't seen .this one yet but the philosophy that we're trying to have here with the good setbacks, which is really one of the reasons as well for' pushing the road back down here. One of the things that Bill has hit on a lot, which we agree with him a lot is you do not want a scenario where you have 4 lanes of TH 5 and then 2 lanes of collector on either side of it all paralleling each other across the entire expanse of that property between Galpin and Audubon. In fact we've had some preliminary meetings with MnOot and looking at a rural road section now which is something...change their minds on but it means it's going to be a very wide corridor. So what you're really looking to do is to kick that road down here where it's going to be masked by all those trees and the wetland that separates it from Timberwood and focus that Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 24 development a little bit back onto it away from TH-5. And we think it's kind of a workable concept. We're going to be working with the school district's architect and make sure the school can fit on there before we go any further. But before we did that, you know I wanted to use this opportunity with the TIF district to kind of bounce this off you and let you know which way we're going because it is a change in direction. $o if you have any comments. Batzli: Let's say we don't like this configuration. Does it make sense to go ahead with the TIF district to buy a school that's not large enough?- Gerhardt: What the plan lays out right now is one that says that you-can' use tax increment to buy a school site somewhere within the district. It doesn't say a site specific spot. 8atzli: Correct. Gerhardt: And then if were to pick out a site specific spot, I~d have to come back through with another modification and we would not acquire the site until we had agreements where somebody wants this school site. But I wouldn't enter into a purchase agreement until I came back to the Planning Commission and City Council for their approval of this modification. Batzli: But my question is, if the school site doesn't fit on the area where it was initially proposed by us in the comprehensive plan, if it won't fit there and if what we're looking at right now doesn't really turn us on, why do we want to do this tax increment financing district? Gerhardt: The tax increment financing number, well we've got a couple of things on tonight. We're making the modification to 2-1 saying.that increments could be used to do a school site. If for some reason we decide that there isn't any money or-there isn't a site anywhere within that boundary for a school site, we just don't do it. If you can't find a spot anywhere within that area that's fit for a school, then you just don't do .. it. You don't follow through with the plan. I mean I can't go buy a school site and then come back to you and say we have a site. I've asked the Attorney that.it almost seems tllegal...now but we wanted to get it out there and we talked about buying a middle school somewhere along...and within the plan but that does not mean we' have to follow through with it. So in your land use plan laid out for that...middle school site somewhere within this area so we are following through with what we've got so if you do pass a resolution, you are...But right now in front of you that doesn't work...so basically what we're doing is looking, at alternatives. Finding how alternative sites does work within that area and that would be acceptable to Timberwood. That would be acceptable to the present landowner and everybody. We wanted to stay along the TH 5 corridor.... One of the other things that the plan does is lay out, this increment dollars could be used for the TH 5 corridor... $o that's one part of it. The other part is that you're creating a new economic development district called 2-2 which would approve special assessment reductions for any building development that takes place on the business center. Ryan Business Center that you approved about 2 or 3 months ago. So' you're not locked in on buying the school site by approving the resolution tonight. You're not approving where the school's going to be located. However you Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 25 are approving the concept that the school would be located somewhere within the boundary but if you decide that you can't find a school within that boundary... Krauss: A couple things and I didn't touch on something Teal critical. Expanding the district allows us to do other stuff in there. We've talked about bridges. We've talked about working with. MnDot to improve the highway. Those kinds of things are something we can do with the expanded district. The second thing is. Batzli: Let me stop you right there. In the public facilities to be constructed in the modification we list school district land, purchase land for future park and construction of a sanitary sewer lift station. Where does the bridge come in and those types of things? Krauss: We have to add that. Gerhardt: Well, we don't know where the bridge is going to be again and we're.probably going to have to come in and condemn some additional land for...easements and as a part of that you'd have to do another modification. Once the TH 5 corridor has been approved by City Council and you have a plan or feasibility study for what you're going to do, then we can come in and incorporate that plan within the'economic development district plan and then send out based on TH 5 corridor plan... I would get future modification. Krauss: The other thing I wanted to touch on too is as this idea'of the school is being talked about some. One of the reasons, the school tends not to fit there and something we need to talk to the school district a little more extensively, is they've got some incredibly huge recreational requirements that we understand are from the state but we'd like clarification of that. You were looking at 4 softball fields, 2 baseball fields, 2 football fields, 2 soccer fields. Batzli: For middle schools? : Gerhardt: ...all purpose areas. 2 soccer fields and just the green area for those recreational fields comes up to be 23.acres.. Krauss: We're not certain if this is a state requirement or because it fits into something the school district wants to do. We'll clarify that some more and the site isn't totally out Of the running if we can figure out a way around it. One of the things we've been looking to do and we've had some conversations with the Mayor and City Manager on this is, there's a consensus being developed that when and if the school is built here that we want to do everything we can to make it more than a school. It's going to be a recreational and community oriented major element of our community and we want to get these recreational facilities'and a pool built with the school and all that and probably would be using some of the tax increment to help with that kind of construction as well. $o a lot Of it's still up in the air but a lot's happening very quickly and we'd like to be in a position to be able to move forward and bring it back to you on some concrete term. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 26 Gerhardt: The owner here is really been questioning us too. He wants to know what's going to happen you know. They're saying they've got a million dollar...they've got to make in the next couple years and they want to start marketing the property and is it going to be marketed as single family or multi-family or is it going to be marketed as industrial...school going to be here or is it going to be over there, that makes them real nervous. You how long is this going to be drug out. We get those...I think there's still some time in there that we can pacify them...they'.re going to benefit from a school...SO tonight what I'm looking for is approval of modification to 2-1 for a public improvement to what would be Audubon Road. Some public improvements that would...that weren't in the modification last year and that the dollars be also used to be spent on a middle school. But again, that's more of a...want to buy a school site somewhere within that area... Second alternative would be to recommend to the City a special assessment reduction program'for District No. 2-2 where Economic Development...would provide 2 years worth of increment to write down special...for any developments to occur on the Chanhassen Business Center site. And also your increment dollars for the acquisition of a lift station that would be on the southerly part of, or the northern part of Lyman 81vd. and the location to be determined by the future feasibility study... And second, for the Park and Rec, as the need for parklands in this location here. The wetland but there's a...comprehensive plan shows a trail system coming in and then connect with future trails'through this residential neighborhood and 'out to TH 5 so we're going to use tax increment to buy parkland generated from that area. And that's it. Everything that we're proposing is consistent and basically that's what you'll find. We're not doing anything that inconsistent with what you planned to date for the City's long range plan in the future. Batzli: Okay, thanks Todd. Anybody have any questions, comments? We'll just kind of throw it open if anybody would like to comment or have any other discussion. Farmakes: I have a comment of' curiousity, If it doesn't fit where, do you have alternative sites that you're looking at if that doesn't fit? Krauss: You mean like the McGlynn site doesn't work out either? Farmakes: It seems a gray area what you think the requirements are. Krauss: Well, we're trying to get them to better define it a little bit too. I mean it sounds like there's enough sports facilities here for Minnetonka and Eden Prairie as well. $o we're not exactly sure where the school district is coming from. We suspect a lot of it has to do with the fact that there's completely inadequate recreational facilities down at. the existing High School and sort of defacto they'll be leaving the High School, well this is one scenario. Leaving the High School there and building a lot of recreational...school district up here. To the extent that that makes sense for our community as well, it's probably a dandy idea that we get the facilities and we get to share them and make more efficient use out of it. If none of this washes, there are other possible sites in the corridor. I personally have never been a strong proponent of any of them for the simple reason that it didn't fi~. None.of the other ones fit real well with the idea of a residential crossing of TH 5. The idea that Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 27 Bill Morrish has been pushing is one that you developed 2 years ago 'with wanting to bridge TH 5 and Bill built on that. I think it's a valid, one. The school site, it's a real handy element because it's so much open space and so much green area but basically is a residential appearing component. ...by the school district. We're fortunate in' being able to piggyback this onto a tax increment project but. elsewhere in the corridor there's no increment, there's no project and I'm not sure where that would put us at that point. Gerhardt: You can look at the map and see certain areas that work. I mean architects like to work with a flat piece of ground with no trees, no hills, no wetlands and it's got perfect c-lay soils and all you need is to put a little black on top so they don't have to truck any black 'dirt in. That's a perfect scenario and you know when be started explaining that to me, if you look at the McG1ynn piece, you can't find a better flat piece of ground that has nice clay soils to work off of. He got excited when he saw 33 acres of this flat ground and no wetlands on it. He's starting to Say he can set everything on the 33 acres and you had 60, yeah I think it was 60 acres that we were working with the other site and he couldn't fit anything on it. $o the topography plays a big factor in this. To answer your questions, I always push for 2-2 .as being a future School site because the land's a little cheaper than what McGlynn's wants for theirs but again we want to try and keep that corridor along TH 5 with the school and the access. It 3ust works a lot better in those areas. But to answer your questions, a third scenario could be 2-2...Business Center site and that'd be a school site. Batzli: What we're doing tonight doesn't enlarge in anyway the area 2 does it? District No. 2? Those boundaries were already previously drawn? Gerhardt: District No. 2 is the dark black line. Batzli: Right. Gerhardt: The previous, that is being expanded. Where it used to fal'l, it went like this. So this would be an expansion and the reason why we did this is, what you can do is take the i'ncrement created off of the McSlynn piece and spend those dollars anywhere within the dark black line. sO it gives enough play in those areas to use those increment dollars in finding a piece of land. And it also, if Galpin ever needs to be upgraded, you can use the increment from this district to assist in'writing down costs of upgrading Galpin and part of Lyman if you need to. Batzli: Is there any impact on Timberwood by including them in the district? " Gerhardt: No. The only place where tax dollars would be affected is in those dashed areas so you did not create any increment outside the red and blue area. So this, it's within the .district boundary but the taxes generated off these parcels would not go into the district. It's only in those areas in the dashed areas. Krauss: The reason for not excluding it is. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 28 Batzli: If you got the roadway back. .- Krauss: Well, you've got the roadway and you've, also got your lift station that's going to be here or here and you've got a forcemain that's going to come up this way and another one that's being split up that way and you've really got to wrap that area to build those lines. Batzli: Jeff, I cut you off earlier. Did you have another question? Farmakes: No. It didn't pertain exacCly to this. I guess a lot of what if questions. . Batzli: Does anybody else have any comments? Questions? Motions? Conrad: I make a motion the Planning Commission adopt Resolution No. 92-2,' finding that modification of the program for Development District No. 2, Modification of Plan for Tax Increment Financing District No. 2-1 and the creation of a new plan for the Tax Increment Financing District No. 2-2. Emmi rigs: Second. Resolutioe #92-2: Conrad moved, Emmtngs seconded to adopt Resolution No. 92-2 finding that Modification of the program for Development District No. 2, Modification of Plan for Tax Increment Financing District No. 2-1; and the creation of a ne~ plan for Tax Increment Financing District No. 2-2. Ali voted in favor and the motion carried. ADOPT RESOLUTION STATING THAT MO~IFICATION NO. 11' TO REDeVELOpmENT AND TAX INCREMENT FINANCING PLAN I-S CONSISTENT WITH TH[ CITY'S COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. Gerhardt: The second item in front of you tonight is what we call the Redevelopment Tax Increment District. On the back of your'report you'll notice that some of the newer members...but the district boundaries for the redevelopment district follow the dark line, go up TH 101, follow TH 5, go around the Taco Shoppe, come back down West 7$th Street, go down along St. Hubert's~ goes around the new Heritage Square Apartments and then follows along the parking lot behind the Riv and behind the Town Square Center and then follows back up and go, divides the school property and the fire station and then takes into account the West Village Apartments over here. And then follows due west and then the boundary is being modified in this location here. With the TH 5 upgrade,, the City is going to have to build a new service road to get to Lake' Ann Park. 'We're proposing to use tax increment dollars to build that service road because they're going to close off our entrance off of TH 5. There will be a new service road that will go along there. Krauss: It's part of the collector, frontage road system that you have on your Comp Plan. Batzli: So this isn't just an access road. This is actually the road that will be the. .- Krauss: The first leg of that road. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 29 Batzli: Yeah, okay. Farmakes: How does that fi~ into the corridor plan? Krauss: I think the corridor plan is going to have some role to play in where we put that road and how we build it. Do you displace it? I mean we know where it's got to pick up on 78th Street. Gerhardt: Well the big thing you've got here-is that you don't have much of a choice for this corridor. You've got some huge wetlands over on this site and there's really one path. Krauss: Around the south end. We don't control all the land yet do we? Gerhardt: No. We'd have to condemn to get the right-of-way but that's a future problem. So does everybody feel pretty good of where the boundaries are? Batzli: Does this then include City Hall? Gerhardt: Yes. Batzli: Did it previously? Gerhardt: Yes. So the only modification to the 'boundary and this again, we can only capture the increment within this area but we've expanded the boundary so that means we can'spend the increment from within the district outside into the project area. Again this is Modification No. 11. This plan was adopted back in 1978 by the Housing and Redevelopment Authority. And there's been 10 modifications up to this one since that tim'e. There's a list of 9 items in front of you that the HRA is going to undertake here in the next couple of years in the downtown area and along SH 5. The first of that is the construction of a center park out in front of City Hall. There's been 3 to 4 public hearings on the concept of building a park in front of City Hall. This is one schematic design for it. It's not going to look like this. This is the best rendering we have to date but they're really doing some interesting things in this area here and taking into account sort of a bandshell type of effect, the two sided bandshell. Wanted to take advantage of the hillside for what I'll say is the smaller event and then for some of the larger events, the 4th of July that you would use the opposite side where the larger gathering would take place and your concerts in the park and things of' that sort. There's been some discussion that there may be too many trees in the plan so it sounds like every other tree will be coming out of here. This road alignment through this area, you'll notice that we're taking out the West 79th or Coulter. The road that goes to the south of City Hall. That will be vacated. The City would have to come in and acquire the 3 lots in this location. Demolish the bank building and relocate those tenants and then take the road out and then realign that road that would come-through this location here. We've done other drawings of how that would work. Right now it looks like it goes right through a parking lot and that's not how it's going to lay out. It will be a road through that area. There will probably be future dollars spent by the Park and Rec to buy additional lands up here because you're going to relocate a softball field in this area. That's one of the Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 30 projects that the HRA is undertaking. A second is the construction of a senior housing project. There's been 'talk and Paul's done a couple of studies on a need for senior housing in.the community. When we built Heritage Square ApartmeNt building, that took 3'to 4 years for the HRA to approve that project and I want to say 3 years of discussions it was always going to be a senior facility and it never came. To get financing they couldn't designate the building as just for seniors. They had to designate it as seniors to low to moderate income people. But the HRA still wants to try to get a senior housing project built and they're going to look at building their own facility. One other spot that they've been looking at is over by old St. Hubert's Church to the Jerry $chtenk property. The little house with the pink roof sits. They would go in there and acquire that land and put in anywhere from 24 to 40 units in that location. Staff has felt that that's a good location.. St. Hubert's was trying ~0 build their own senior facility and attaching it to their sanctuary facility and they just decided that they didn't have the money and the need wasn't there for them to do that. So that's .been a goal of the HRA to build a senior complex. And it'd be an interesting one that they want to get away from some of the FHA guidelines and criteria that go with that. They want to go with a straight rents would be 25~ of whatever your incomes are. Right now if you follow FHA guidelines you look at 25~ of what you income is plus whatever you have in the bank. So you get a lot-of older pechole in this area that sell their house and they potentially have $100,000.00 or $200,000.00 in the bank, well that just puts them right out of the rent bracket for some of these facilities. What the HRA is looking at doing is building their own facility and giving that back to the City Council or to the City and then city money, hiring a management company to come in and run it under their guidelines. So you're not dictated by FHA or a~y of those agencies under their guidelines. So that's an interesting approach and it would be a revenue producer for the city too. Because the building would be given to the city so it would be debt free so the rents generated off of that goes to management company and upkeep but anything in excess of that would be revenue back to the City. And that's one of the HRA's goals is to try to look at producing revenue once'the district does go away for the city and that's one approach that they've come up with. The second area was construction of a library. The HRA right now is in ownership of the Pony/Pauly/Pryzmus area and that is the old Pony Express and John Pryzmus' own building between what was the Pony Express and Pauly's. The HRA owns all three of those buildings. The lease with Pauly and Pryzmus ' ends in 1994 and at that time the HRA would not renew their leases and would ask them to leave. They've got compensated for those buildings and the HRA would tear the buildings down and construct a new library in that location. Expanding the park inbetween what would be St. Hubert's, old St. Hubert's church and Village Hall. Krauss: One of the reasons for building a new library is not just to move it but the fact that this library is inadequate. I forget what the formula is but I think it's a 1,000 square feet for every 1,000 people. Gerhardt: It's 100 square feet for every 1,000 people you have in Chanhassen. Maybe it is 1,000. Krauss: Yeah. We were looking at the possibility of putting a facility there that would accommodate a city of 23,000-24,000 people which we'll be Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 31 in the not to awful distant future. Gerhardt: But that's the library criteria. We like to use the 500 feet criteria and cut them in half and we feel that that's more appropriate. Right now that means they would take the Council Chambers and the new wing over there to meet that criteria right now and that finar~ially we just can't support that. But in that location it would be I think 11,000 square foot library. 11,000 to 12,000 square foot library and down around that area. Heritage Square Park, that is between St. HubertLs and City Hall. Acquisition of the Hanus Building. Hanus building is where Gary Brown's service station. It's the building directly east of the Rapid Oil facility. We have an option right now to acquire that building. The reason why the HRA would want to acquire that building is to go in there and follow through with whatever City Council approves with the TH 5- corridor study. To look to either landscape that area to what the needs are and in the future if the building should happen, if they say the building should be taken down, that could be an option. If the building stays, they would want it as a private user to be used 'for City. Public works needs. Park needs. Whatever it may need. We have several options open but the real reason why everybody wants to acquire it is to landscape that area. Right now it just sticks right out as you're driving down TH 5. And it was just a big mistake on when TH 5 was rerouted that they left that gap of land between the railroad tracks and TH 5 there. And if you look at the map, I mean that little block there, it's just crazy. You Just can't tell that a building in there. You know we're going to acquire the Taco place and the Red-E-Mix. To go back in there and put something else in, how could you put a building any bigger than the Taco place in there? I mean if you put anything bigger than that, it's going to stick out like a sore thumb because the width of the lots in that area are not, they're very small. It's a real narrow piece and that was just a big mistake for the State to allow that to occur. They should have acquired that entire area and it should have been right-of-way and that was a real mistake because it's just not wide enough for any development to occur. By the time you put parking lots, have a little green space and your building, you have nothing. I mean Taco has absolutely no green spaces. It's just one gravel parking lot. Construction of a senior center. I think that's on for City Council approval of plans and specs this next Monday night. We had a bottom portion of the public safety wing over here'would be rennovated for a senior center. They would have small kitchen facilities,, meeting room space, bathrooms and just a place to gather and to do some of their things. Park and Rec is taking an active role in doing some programming for them and meeting some of their needs. Play cards, meet and have congregate. Not congregate dining but they could bring some food in and...since and the refri'gerator. Conrad: Todd, what's the percentage of seniors in Chanhassen? Krauss: It's a lot higher than you would think. At the present time, if you use the over 55 criteria, there's somewheres upward of 900 to 1,000 people in town that qualify and it's a very r.apidly grQwing segment. What . we found is that we have a couple of different classes of people that are becoming seniors. We have the original Chanhassen'-group. The folks, that have been here for 30 years who have aged in place, and they don't tend to, you know they tend to stay. A lot of them are still here and stay. We've Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 32 got the people who have moved in in the 70's who are aging in place and have now, you know the kids are out and they're still here. Steve keeps thinking and talking about it...and we also have a bunch of people that are starting to, who have parents who are becoming dependent on their kids again and the nature of this country now is that a lot of people don't live anywhere near their parents and they've had to relocate their parents from other communities. I've got a woman on my Senior Commission who's son lives in Chanhassen who moved her out from Chicago when the neighborhood started going bad and when she needed more help and that's becoming more common. So the senior population is growing nationally dramatically and locally as well. Right now we have, we don't have any facilities for seniors in the community. We support South Shore Senior Center which caters to some of the demand. We do have a card club that meets once a' week which we'll provide space for but there's a pretty hefty demand and we . have a senior services coordinator that we've retained. So it's really starting to snowball. Conrad: Thanks Todd. Gerhardt: Paul's been real active with the Seniors. I mean that's the thing. If Paul's numbers are right, it'S about 10~ of the population 'that are seniors but the interesting thing about that 10~ is. that they're very active here. They want to be with other seniors. They want to play cards. They want to be active. They don't want to sit at home and watch TV. They don't want to just go out and buy groceries or do whatever. They want to be active. They want to be a part of the community and it's interesting that they pushed for this very hard. Conrad: Well 10~ of the population is a big number.. It used to be about 3~ that's why I was interested because it used to be real small. Krauss: Well if you look at the resources we devote to kids recreation and you realize that we've done nothing for the other end of the spectrum to date, it's a good fit and having them downtown where there may be housi.ng, where they're supposed to be shopping, where we have a park, where we have those kind of facilities is really a very nice fit. Gerhardt: Now they're taking my storage area and so I'm a little mad about it but I think it's going to be a real asset. I mean they're right next to the library. When we get the grocery store in, this is just going to be a real asset to CitylHall I think. Havin~ those people that close. The next item is the West 7$th Street Detachment. In previous modifications we've always added project numbers that would qualify for a special assessment reduction. It looks like this project is going 'to be built this year. They did some grading. You can see some of the alignment where West 7$th Street would be detached as it would connect over here onto CR 17. One of the reasons why that's been delayed is that TH 5's goi'ng to be raised by a foot and when you do the West 78th Street detachment you're going to have to reconstruct that intersection and that portion of CR 17 and if you've got TH 5 a foot up and we built the road say 2 years ago, you've got CR 17 a foot below it. It doesn't work. You've got to do them in conjunction with each other so that's why that project's been delayed. We've been taking a...we're just doing this for a the fun of it but we've been delayed by what's delayed TH 5. TH 5 improvement, entry features. When Market- Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 33 Blvd. was built, the HRA acquired right-of-way for that and with that they acquired some additional land as a part of the TH 5 corridor upgrade which, as I was talking to Dick, hopefully this goes along with it. We are going to build some entry monuments as you enter TH 5 and Market Blvd. and Great Plains Blvd. and TH 5. So that would be, we're going to hide the bank and be over next to the Holiday gas station. What they're looking at is a wall monument that would look like this with landscaping and trees. This would be the Market Blvd. area. How it is laid out. And then they were also going to, in this location they were goir~ to introduce a vertical element similar to the clock tower but substantially taller. It would be 45 feet and then again the wall underneath it would look like this. Conrad: Where's that Todd?' Where's the wall? Gerhardt: The wall would be the dark purple line. Conrad: What's in your right hand goes where your left hand? Gerhardt: Right. That is just another concept. You like that one better? Everybody's looking for a home for' my railroad depot. Erhart: You've abandoned the railroad depot again? Gerhardt: We own the depot. Erhart: I know you do. Conrad: Where's the depot? Krauss: It's the shack that's been sitting out by Natural Green. Batzli: Oh really? We own that? I didn't know that. $o we're going to put it there? Gerhardt: No. Farmakes: I have a question. The type that's on the Chanhassen logo, this sign that you just showed. Gerhardt: The maple leaves? Farmakes: Yeah. Apparently when Bloomberg built this place there was like a western theme. You see it smattered about and I'm just curious to know the history behind that. Gerhardt: I think we're getting away from the country theme and now we.'re, what they're calling is a country modern type style. With the lap siding,. cracked off cinder block. This cedar shake. Farmakes: Textured... Gerhardt: ...and the peaked roof. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 34 Krauss: But if you go back, I think it started in the late 70's there was actually a concerted effort to get a prairie theme. Farmakes: Which is, it's TV cowboy is what it is. This horseshoe type type is. Krauss: In retrospect it's very chintsy, yeah. Gerhardt: Have you been over on France Avenue? Next to Fudruckers there's a big old office building and did you notice the wall element there, I think it says the Minnesota Center. That's where this came from. It's made out of limestone. This would be a $ foot 6 wall. That's a substantially smaller one but that's the concept for this. The same architect that designed that is designing this. Erhart: That's 6 feet tall? Gerhardt: Yeah. Krauss: The key idea here is to let people know who aye traveling down TH 5 that they've entered into our community. That these are the entry ways into our downtown and in some cases where you have like the Holiday store, to kind of cover up the back of the Holiday store which wasn't really built with an eye towards the highway or beautification. This is also, I mean it points the way to some of. the stuff that we'd like to be doing on the rest of TH 5 with that tax increment district and working with MnDot and working on the corridor later on. Similar efforts also have to be done on the previously finished portion of TH 5 east of downtown. Farmakes: ...why the city is married to that type. Is it a consensus on the HRA? Gerhardt: Are you saying the lettering or the? Farmakes: The lettering. Not the maple leaf. The lettering itself. That just seems to be a hold over from that previous development. I was wondering how relevant that is. Gerhardt: Well where they got that, the City's letterhead. Farmakes: I understand that. tt seems to, did that theme come from because the City chose that particular letterhead or did that reflect that? Gerhardt: I've been here 6 years and that's what the ietterhead's always looked like while I was here and I don't know where the lettering style came from. It looks western to me, yeah. Farmakes: I just don't know how relevant that is to us here. I don't know if that's, it didn't seem relevant to our community. The type style. Not the sign. eatzli: Do you think it looks too heavy? I mean is that, or just too cowboyish? Planning Commission Heating February 19, 1992 - Page 35 Farmakes: I just don't see us as that. It almost'looks like we're wearing Stetsons and, it looks like TV western type to me.- I realize, that a lot of people say so what about that sort of thing but it is a style. If you go out and you look at different communities, particularly water towers, you'll see Excelsior is an old gothic. You'll see Edina in helmetica. Very contemporary, modern type. It does seem to say something, just as much as it.does about a business or corporation. That you look at a letterhead and I don't know how reflective that is of our community. Batzli: I think a hand written script would look kind of trendy. What do you think? Farmakes: Well you get 1OO different opinions but I'm just saying, I'm not sure. It just seems to me that I suspect that's a carry over from that original development theme and I don't know how relevant it is. Gerhardt: These are lights so in the evening you're going to see this area at night. I think this is also back lit. But that's something that can be changed. I'll bring it up to the HRA When they do final plans and specifications for construction of it because that's one of the things that they're going to approve is the letter style. Emmings: I've just gotten so used to it, I've stopped thinking about it but I think Jeff's comments are very good ones. I think it is a hold over and we just don't see it anymore because we're so used to seeing it but I think maybe changing it to something else a little, well plainer. Farmakes: Is the green on there or is that a copper type thing or what is that? What is the material on .that? Gerhardt: It's a painted metal letter and a pre-case letter.' The green is matching, the decorative light standards in the downtown so that's where the green comes in. And you will have decorative lighting introduced in this area over here and over'here but again the color hasn't been approved. But I'm sure they're doing that trying to sta~ consistent with those country colors. They've been using the grays, the bluish greens and greens. Farmakes: Is that supposed to be like a kasota stone or did you mention what type of stone that is? Gerhardt: It's a limestone veneer with a rough face. Not the smooth. Batzli: Would this come back before us for any reason? No. Okay. Emmings: HRA stuff. Gerhardt: I mean if you wanted to see it, we can ~ut it on the agenda. .. Farmakes: This is an important thing because this what people are... Gerhardt: Yeah, as Dick and I were talkin~ over there he said did Morrish look at any of this and I said, I don't think so. One of the things that we're going to work on is we're goin~ to try and set this with the Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 36 University of Minnesota and say is this what we had been planning for this area. I know there's some talk at one of the public meetings that...and green areas at some of the intersections. Krauss: Morrish has seen this. Yeah, in fact we had meetings, to put them together as kind of a team for a while so yeah, he and Barry Warner did take a crack at that. Gerhardt: Okay. Once we put a set of plans and Specs together, I don't have any problems coming back to Planning Commission and showing you what we're doing and if you want to make suggestions. The HRA is really interested in getting public input. I mean we held 4 or 5 public .hearings on the park. I've gone to Rotary. We've gone to the Chamber with it to get input. We don't get anybody to come to our meetings. Farmakes: Other things that you've mentioned it's nice about the sign is the color scheme. I think it's a nice environmental, friendly color scheme but the materials also I think are important. You use the rough stone, you should be careful about the letters and the materials that those are made out of, even the look of letting co,er go green. With the look on the 'CCO building downtown, it's quite reflective of that color scheme there. But that gives it a far different look of natural look versus green metal letters. For instance of fake metal plastic type thing. It gives it a little look. It says something different of our community. Gerhardt: The metal letters would probably be made out of some type of aluminum that would not bleed into the rocks and there again they would be painted with whatever color they decide to paint it or whatever. 8ut that is a good point. Farmakes: Copper does go green. Gerhardt: Right. Well we see that with the other type of light poles that we have in the downtown. You go over in the parking lot over there and you notice that the exposed metal lights, they corregated steel...get wet they bleed down onto the top of the concrete. $o it does look a little weird. We've got that bleeding down over there; Batzli: How many new lawnmowers are we going to have to get to keep up all of these new park type areas throughout the city? Gerhardt: Let me see, we bought one last year. What we do is there's one full time employee who maintains the downtown and now we've hired a seasonal person so he does help out during the summertime in mowing the area. $0 you basically have 2 people during the summer who maintain the downtown picking up the garbage, mowing, fertilizing, and this would be an extension to that. Batzli: I mean are these types of areas, they've got these things heavily landscaped and flowered. Are you going.to be installing sprinkler systems and having like the Garden Club take care of it hopefully so it actually looks nice rather than, if the City tries to do it it will probably not'get as much attention as it deserves. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 37 Gerhardt: Well you're looking at the head of the garden club. I run the garden club. And if the garden club's getting more areas than what they want, so I'm out there planting flowers. I think I was out here and you guys were walking in and tripping over me and' Batzli: No, we appreciate that but I just ~hink if it's left up to the city from time to time, things get a little bit unruly before they get back to us. Gerhardt: Then you call me and then we get on Charlie and Charlie's out there. You know it's amazing, Charlie has 12,000 bosses. Everytime somebody drives by, they roll down the window. You should be trimming these trees in this location and so everybody keeps a fJretty good eye on it and I think he does a real good job. Batzli: Oh, I agree. I mean he can't be everyplace at once. I'm just curious to know whether we're going to have city staff out ~here tending, you know clipping out the dead flowers or is this going to be kind of a community get, maybe some of the seniors like the Excelsior seniors. Gerhardt: The garden club-'s growing every year and they take on more and I'm sure the seniors, you know with their center, I think they:re going to get more active. I've been working with 8eh Gowen and he wants to flower hostas and some other flowers off of TH 41. He's going to assist in the garden club in trying to get them more active. The garden club's more, they want to be more than just planting flowers. They want to go to seminars. They want speakers to come in. They don't want to be a laborer for the city or the HRA in trying to beautify. They want to learn and we've got a lot of novice gardners in this club. And we can take a flower and stick it in the ground and water it but... Batzli: For example I think the, you know what they do in Excelsior on that little piece of triangle. I mean they give high visibility to the fact that these are the people taking care of it and you drive by it and you're just impressed as hack. And if we can give an opportunity like that so people even know (a) that there's .a garden club, and (b) give them a show piece. Then it would be worth their time out there planting things rather than you're right, just having to be slave labor. Gerhardt: We bought little signs that say garden club. We've taken out a good relationship with the newspaper in trying to get members. -The next newsletter, well not the next one but the following one will have 3nih the garden club. We've done a lot of things. We have right now about 10 members in the garden club so that should be an area and similarly this would be a mirror image of the sign.over on the piece by the Holiday station. Batzli: Chanhassen would be spelt backwards? Gerhardt: Right. Backwards. Upside down. Not Home Of the Dinner Theatre. That's not going to be in there. We' showed this to the bank and with what the bank's doing with their entry piece and what this is doing in that area, the HRA wants to put an active bell in this thing too so it will play chimes and stuff. $o they're into it. I think it's going to be a Planning Commission Heeting February 19, 1992 - Page 38 real nice area. Walkway going alone there. We've changed that from a bituminous walkway to a concrete walkway and'staying with the TH 5 in concrete, we thought we should be consistent with what the road structure is. And one of the other things that the HRA-would be spending money is that you're going to have a lot of detailed brick work that they're' spending money on. Pedestrian crossways.would be done in brick. It would be brick...with special paving...that will look like brick and it will be colored like brick that will follow along in the median section in this area of Great Plains and Dakota. As you come down Chanhassen you see these entry monuments and you see this brick fading with the concrete roadway, people are going to realize, hey this is 'downtown Chanhassen. This is different and special. Just coming across brick and it's going to be... Farmakes: I have a question. Is there anything written as to, I'm just wondering how people friendly this, it will look nice. I'm just wondering how useable it is or what purpose is intended for it. Is there any study in regards to, for instance there's a bench overlooking TH 5 and I'm wondering how relevant that is. Krauss: TH 5 has a bike trail,' pedestrian trail. Farmakes: Well I didn't mean that. I was wondering if somebody's going to plant themselves down next to full of traffic. Gerhardt: Well if somebod¥'s going to ride a bike, I mean from what we've been told, this is going to go out to Carver Park. This trail. Ultimately if TH 5 is upgraded so you can get a lot of people biking out to the Arboretum, out to Carver Park from Eden Prairie and along the way they wan~ to stop and rest, they can sit on the bench. $100.00 bench you know is there if they want it. Farmakes: What I was saying though or the comment I was making, I was just wondering-if there's anything. There have been occasions where communities have spent a lot of money for park areas where they thought they would be useable and have not been, including like New York City for instance. Gerhardt: ...active park area. We're not trying to encourage people to come down in this area. The bench is there again, this is going to be constructed with TH 5 as it gets through Eden Prairie. 'We didn't put any parking lots in to accommodate people to come down here and use 'this. It's more of a visual, as you're driving by type pleasure and' it's not an active area. We're not trying to encourage peopte...want to go down and sit and watch cars go by on TH 5 with the exception of... Farmakes: Has there been communication between the other elements that were on the corridor study? The urban design center. Krauss: Well yeah, Morrish has seen this stuff. Gerhardt: And Barton-Aschmann is the engineers that are working on the TH 5 plan. The HRA has hired them to make sure that TH $ is being built, that these elements can be introduced. The special brick paving is TH 5 being upgraded that we can get those special brick parings done with that. Who better to do that than the architects and engineers that are working on Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992-- Page 39 TH 5. With the contract, Barry' Namer from Barton-Aschmann has been working with Bill Morrish and Paul and also is very good friends with Peter Olin from the Landscape Arboretum so he bounced all of this off of Peter' and what Peter thinks of this and the HRA and their thoughts of what this area should be looking like. But we're open to any change on it but a big factor in this was to try to get this done with'the TH 5 improvement and that seoment is Ooin~ to be built this spring. Batzli: Where's the fountain in, right there? Gerhardt: Right here. Batzli: And you're not going to put the depot there like in the other concept drawing? Gerhardt: No. We want to put the depot in a spot where the'best thing we can do is to get it reused. To have p~ple use it instead of it Just being an empty building sitting somewhere. Similar to Old Village Hall. You wouldn't believe how much the Old Village Hall gets used. That book upstairs is booked. Wedding parties use it to dress in. There's school classes, the Cub Scouts, there's tap dancers, and the floor's got little pits in it from the tap dancers. But the building gets used, it's unbelieveable. And I'd like to do the same thing, rennovate the old depot and put that back to a similar use. Be it whether I rent it out for some realtor or somebody to go.in there or something and has money generated but I think the best way to use these older buildings is to put them back to use and that's the only way they usually keep.upgraded.. 8atzli: So you're still looking at doing'something like that within this TIF district then? Gerhardt: We'd like to get it down next to St. Hubert's Church. By Old Village Hall, what we looked at, what we've got. there is basically a little historical area and I always figured a nice spot would be on a Kltngelhutz piece between those two big oak trees next to the railroad tracks. If not in that location, a little bit farther east of where Jerry $chlenk's house is next to the railroad tracks. And those are my thoughts. Sometimes they go to the wayside but we haven't designated a site but it more than likely will be down in that area somewhere... That's all the modifications as a part of what's going on. Again when your passing a resolution saying that the modifications that we're making are consistent with the overall development of the community and I stand ready to answer any questions that you may have... Batzli: Thanks again Todd. Tim, do you have anything? Ladd? Matt? Jeff? Okay. Any motions? Ledvina: Okay, I'd like to offer a motion that the Planning Commission adopt Resolution No. 92-1, finding Modification No. 11 of the Redevelopment Plan and TIF Plan consistent with tbs city. rs plan for development of the City of Chanhassen. Conrad: I'll second. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 40 Resolution ~92-1: Ledvina moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission adopt Resolution No. 92-1, finding Hodif[cation No. 11 of the Redevelopment Plan and TIF Plan consistent ~ith the city's plan for development of the City of Chanhassen. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Gerhardt: If you are interested, we can as soon as, we haven't seen any architectural plans and specs for those entry monuments. If you want, we can bring those back to you and, HRA's looking for comments and I don't have any problem coming back and presenting those to you if you have an interest in seeing those. Because the HRA is always looking for comments. Conrad: I'd like to. Batzli: I think that would be a good idea to bring them back. Gerhardt: ...it's been our policy in the past to bring any public buildings back and then we...site plan approval. The library would come through with a site plan approval. Batzli: Okay. Real good. ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT CONCERNING PUD RESIDENTIAL STANDingS- Batzli: Paul, do you have. some materials or couldn't you get them together? Krauss: I thought I was going to'be able to give-them to you. It turns out that we're not going to be able to.provide them until next meeting. You may want to, I think our next agenda is fairly light. We may want to consider putting a couple of these things on there and tackling them then. Batzli: 3ust so everybody else kno~s, Paul is going to give us some ordinances from some other communities and also I think take a look at one proposal that at least has been bounced around with Paul for a PUD area so we can kind of take a look at how our proposed ordinance would affect that and take a look at some of those things. So I'll save my comments on that then. But we can do that at our next meeting. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Chairman Batzlt noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated February 5, t992 as presented. CITY COUNCIL UPDATE: Krauss: I don't know if you wanted to take muc6 time on this. Most of the stuff is as you recommended. The beachlot stuff has been generating a lot of, somewhat I guess controversy. A lot of calls. But a lot of the discussion appears to be interesting and Councilman Wing's here tonight to relayed some of that to me that we had a few beachlots, the Council did go with the '82 baseline but, and obviously that raised the ayre of some of the beachlot associations that exceeded their '82 allocations by substantial margins. But there was almost an equal outcry of folks who have been controlling themselves or individuals who have concerns about beachlot associations that violated this stuff where they"re saying that we Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 41 want you to enforce it this way and Councilman Wing's indicated to me that he continues to get a lot of calls on it and it sounds like the calls are coming in from similar, both sides. Equal who wanted to enforce it. The second reading of that is on Monday night and we're already looking to bringing back in the first round of non-conforming use permit applications to you the second meeting in March. . Batzli: So all summer are we going to be looking at these non-conforming beachlots? Krauss: Well, we're thinking of taking about 3 or 4 at a time. Most, I think there's 13 of them and if my memory's correct, 9 Of them there's really no problem. Conrad: 3 or 4 that are. Krauss: So what we want to do is tackle one each time. So we'll be bringing that back to you. Farmakes: The people that came to speak that wanted the '82 guidelines on the lake, were they centered around those 3 or 4 or were there further complaints in regards to the ones? Krauss: I think the ones we heard at the meeting were the ones that you heard about the beachlots that you heard. Councilman Wing indicated to me now that we're starting to hear of people complaining about other situations elsewhere. Farmakes: I thought the newspaper article didn't explain it very well. The company staff. They left out a lot of key points. They kept referring to a survey rather than the ordinance that they were following at that time. Or that these are in violation of that. As I understand it. That's the way it came out in the article so I don't kDow how'many people consider that to be an affront against their riparian rights or what but. Ledvina: Seeing the two surveys, the distinction-between them was arbitrary and... Conrad: Is there a chance that the Council could change it's mind on it? Councilman Wing: You know the Council better than I do Ladd. I think they do, there's a lot of environmental arguments and I don't think the environmental argument has any weight.at all o.n this issue. I think the plan is it's own issue. I think if you look at the 1'992 shoreline management that's coming through...recreational beachlots. I have polled Planning Commissions in the past and Pa~k and Rec Commission and City Staff and former Mayor and everybody'.s-in agreement that ~952 .is fair and just... and I think one of the comments that will be made Monday night is we have...so there's a lot of ramifications on this thing.' I guess I put everything out of my mind except what we've done in 1982 and why and... I think we did the right thing and I would-support the 1952 count based on why it was done. That very few are in violation. We've got some very vocal people but they're the ones in violation. ~nd there's going to be strong...cooperated and...lakeshore control by the amount of people Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 42 complaining. We have a 50 foot lot that has 14 boats on it, that's pretty high intensive useage. $o to answer your questions, I don't know. I think that the lake people seem to be lobbying for 1982 and the...certainly for 1982 and you supported it. The problem is, you support this thing and have reasons for justification but then you don't show up at the City Council meeting and stand your ground and share your thoughts...so there's a loss of transition in there and I think...that you should k,~ there to stand... and giving the Council your input. Batzli: Well it comes up for second reading next Monday? Councilman Wing: On the consent agenda. Batzli: Okay, and that's the same meeting that is going to have the corridor study? Krauss: Yes. Batzli: Okay. So there may be more of us there at least. So if it does get yanked off of consent. Conrad: It's on the consent agenda. Is that right? Krauss: Well given the comments that Dick's been receiving, I think the other Council people have probably been receiving them as well, I wouldn't. be surprised if it got pulled off. - Batzli: It will get pulled off of consent agenda. - Conrad: And who's made aware? It's not a public hearing at this time. Do people have the o~oortunity to talk? Krauss: The Mayor's always, if it's pulled off the consent agenda, the Mayor's always had a very open stance toward people wanting to comment on things and they're always given an opportunity. Conrad: And who is going to show up for this? There's been one reading. Did people go away feeling that it's a done deal after the one reading? Councilman Wing: I think that it's been my-ltmt%ed experience on the Council, the first reading is a good time 'to sit quiet and say nothing but then the second reading is the time to-pull it off the consent.agenda and hit it head on. I'm assuming that the majority of the discussion...real decision will be made on the second-reading. That's my opinion based on previous ones. I think of the landscape ordinance. Nobody said anything ...and they had a million reasons why and no chance .to discuss or-counter or even be rational on the issues...so I can see that happening Monday although the lake people who were here, that are calling me are certainly planning on coming in with a lot of background and professional, people with them...so there's a lot of, they're not interested in... Conrad: I'm just curious. I've talked to a counciimember or two and I don't know that there's support for the ~982. I don't know that. the ~982 is going to be what is agreed upon. But there is opportunity for people to Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 19~2 - Page 43 speak but oh well, thank you Dick. Batzli: Anything else Paul? Krauss: A couple other things that didn't happen at the Council meeting but are happening at the storm water meetings. One of the goals that was established and one of the early directives on this thing was to attack the problems in our wetlands ordinance and develop a new ordinance and official map. What we've done is break out a subcommittee of the, what the swamp group, we'll go by that acronym, that's working at a more rapid pace on gating a new wetlands ordinance in place and adoption of the official map. $o I'm hopeful that you'll be seeing the fruits.of that effort before we get too deep into the summer season. The other element that you're probably going to be seeing in short order is, there's a set of manuals for maintaining a site during construction and I'm sure Matt's familiar with it. It's called 8est Management Practices but there's different manuals by different organizations. Basically it's guidelines that establish in great detail how you best control erosion during varic~Js construction stages. Re-establishment of cover and what not. Our ordinances are extremely bad on this thing. We've been kind of making do by sticking people with erosion control plans and what not as a part of approvals but we reallY don't have a comprehensive document that tells us what to do and where to do it. So we're probably going to be looking to an ordinance, in fact it's one of the topics, that's probably going to come up next week at the swamp meeting. Ordinance amendments to deal with that head on and get that into place before we get too deep into the construction season as well. Batzli: Does that make Tim Chairman of the Swamp? Krauss: Yeah. 8atzli: Well is that an ordinance that we can merely adopt a certain manual as our guiding light? Krauss: We've got a couple of approaches to that. I've been working with 8onestroo, I think my preference is to do what you're .saying. Is that not to go into great technical detail in the ordinance because it's confusing and it's to adopt either that martial or a manual that we develop for ourselves by reference in the ordinance and then we can update the manual whenever we need to without changing the ordinance. Batzli: Okay. Moving onto ongoing items. Jeff, has the sign group been meeting? Farmakes: Yes. We met for the second time this morning. And it's going along pretty good actually. We're making some headway. We're dealing with the intent statement now and then starting to deal with some of the special, with how we approach.districting for signage. Batzli: Okay. Any administrative approvals? Krauss: Yeah there was one but I can't remember what it is right now. I'll try and think of it. Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 44 DISCUSSION OF GROUP HOMES, Batzli: What do we need to discuss? Krauss: Well okay. I don't know if you, again because of the lateness of the hour whether you want to get this in time. Even though the agehda says the sexually oriented materials on there too, Roger was not able to get that into the packet in time so that's something that will swing onto the next one. I asked Roger to give us a memo on outlining with group homes what we do now. What recent court actions are saying, that you may be able to do. What you can't do and then to look at some alternatives. This is one of our work items. Ongoing items. What I'd like to do is, in view of the hour if you don't really want to really discuss this in detail at this point. I didn't work on it but it came from Mtnnetonka. Minnetonka I thought took a real progressive stance on group homes in that the City worked diligently to allow these things into the community in a reasonable and responsible manner but right now we have an ordinance that says some classes are protected by the State. They can move in, you say nothing but the larger ones have a conditional use permit but there's no guideline. And what Minnetonka did is develop some very good guidelines and I have copies I can give you tonight or in the next packet, however you wish', that outline where a group home, a licensed group home is a reasonable use and where it's not. I think you're way ahead of the game to examine this issue somewhat dispassionately when you're not being confronted by some raucous crowd 6f folks telling you to shoot something down. And I'm not asking you to jump into anything quickly. We can always have Chuck Gabrielson, I'm sure he'd be willing to comment on some of this stuff. He operates-the home out on TH 5. I'd like to involve him just to get some expertise. But Minnetonka had some horrific experiences. One was a home for teenage kids that had problems. It was in an old school. Another one which was really an awful situation was a home for battered women that was moving out of Hopki-ns and into Minnetonka and the ordinance that they developed I think showed a lot of foresight and they had a lot of input. They served on a State committee on regulating group homes and what not. So I'd like to bounce some of those things off you to show what I think could possibly be done and what we maybe ought to look at. A~d if you agree we'll come through with an ordinance amendment to do it. Batzli: Currently what do we do? Do we regulate it at all? Krauss: Well we do but it's like so many of our CUP's and we've tried to fix them as we've tackled them. It says. it's a conditional use permit. There's only four specific standards, and .this is for the ones that are between, 7 to 16 adults or children. What we require that they have a State license. Now that's sometimes problematic because the State doesn't license everything. So you need to look at that. Compliance with building and fire codes as a condition. Well, that's nice. That's reasonable. Annual review. Well all CUP's have annual review and it's got to have a septic system in compliance with the ordinance. Well, this doesn't tell me a whole lot or give me a whole lot of guidance. The stuff that Minnetonka developed was things like, if you're going to have a group residential facility in a single family neighborhood, you've ~ot to recognize it's Dot a single family use. I mean not exactly and that the intensity of the use is somewhat greater. So what they did in Minnetonka is I think they Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 45 established a requirement that for each residential above a certain number you have to have 3,000 feet of lot area. Off street parking has to be provided. That these things should not be located at the bottom end, dead end of a cul-de-sac but on a more prominent street, possibly where it's not as intrusive. And a lot of what regards is somewhat like a church. A church is allowed in a residential district but you don't want it at the end of a cul-de-sac because it has inordinate amounts of traffic and noise and whatever else associated with it. I think that there's a way to reasonably approach these things without being punitive and ! think we ought to look at it when nobody's asking us the question. .,' Farmakes: Is it a practical matter with some of this stuff though that because a lot of these organizations are starved for cash that they take over existing buildings that have been either abandoned or looking to unload them. Say for instance I know in some communities there's been problems with churches who get a single family exemption and they're in a single family community and in some cases they're quite close to these places. And they come in. There's usually a regulation that states that they can only be used for religious purposes. It has 'to be an active survey and they try to do, get the'zoning changed just for that one corner. That one lot in a single family zone' Do you envision that sort of thing? Krauss: Well churches are a little tough. A little different but I know I've dealt, I didn't have to deal with it fortunately but there was an instance in Minnetonka where a family, a religiously oriented family moved into a home and turned their house into'a church'where they had meetings and streets up and down on both sides were filled with cars and it became a real significant problem. I think you do need to look at that and churches are not very well regulated by our ordinances. Farmakes: Don't confuse me. What I'm talking about in this particular case that I know, it was actually a convent. A small convent. Residential convent area. Because it had a chapel in it, it was classified as for religious use. But it had an exemption and it was in a single family area. Krauss: No, we don't exempt anything for religious purposes. Farmakes: No, no. I meant that the building had an exemption being placed in a single family zone. Krauss: We don't have that in. Farmakes: Not in this community but what I'm saying is that what happened is that they tried to find someone to take the building. Basically they couldn't find another religious organization to take it'so'they, there was a group, a home that had a contract with the County who wanted to take over the facility. Wanted to rezone it. Pressure because the contract was with a municipal government that to change that within the single family zone. Krauss: Well that can certainly happen. I worked on one in-Minnetonka on Excelsior Blvd. which was a convent and there ate no more nuns living in it and it was a home for Alheizmer's. A residential home for Alheizmer's patients that had an operation in Minneapolis that wanted to move out there. I never thought it was going to be controversial but, I mean it was Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 46 a building that was designed for multiple occupancy. It had a lot Of little cells for the nuns. But those kinds of things, that particular kind of thing you can deal with with the ordinance that I'm thinking of. Of at least laying out for you to take a look at. Batzli: Why don't you bring it back next meeting with what you'd like to see. Obviously with a conditional use permit we already have flexibility as to what we need. The only thing we're going to gain by putting criteria in there is you're going to have it in writing to put under somebody's nose and say this is what we want.. Krauss: With our CUP standards the way they area, we have some specific standards for some CUP's and then we have the mom and apple pie CUP standards that apply to everything. You'd.be very hard pressed to develop detailed guidelines on an impromptu basts when somebody's already in with an application request that would be upheld by a court, Batzli: Then we should get rid of all the detailed CUP stuff shouldn't we? Krauss: No, I think the reverse is true. You should be more specific on the CUP standards. And again, keep in mind, my own professional opinion about group homes is they're something that I thi6k we have an obligation as a community to do our share. ! don't think we can ship all these problems off to Chicago Avenue in Minneapolis and shouldn't &ttempt to do that. Batzli: So this is an...problem? Krauss: Yeah, very much so. One other aspect of this that Roger touched on that we had a problem with recently is I had a woman who runs a senior residence. They wanted to buy a home in Chanhassen and we have a definition of what constitutes a family. Our-definition says.~hat you can have up to 5 unrelated people. She wanted to take in, it was a 4 bedroom house and it was she and her husband and she. wanted Go take i~ 3 senior citizens that needed a modest level of care and'wanted to live in a residential setting. Sounded real innocuous to me. I couldn't see any problem at all with it. In fact there was no problem at all with it under our current ordinance. But then she said, well what if I have a.baby? My husband and I are thinking of having a baby. Well, then you no longer have 5 unrelated people. You have 3 related and'3 unrelated, 6 total and technically it's a violation of our ordinance. I mean ordinances were never designed to look at the multiplicity of living situations that people have and the courts have had some recent rulings which is why I asked Roger to get involved. But I think it's a fairly interesting topic and I think the only time you can really look at it is when you're free to do it. without pressure. 8atzli: Okay, sounds good. Why don't we take a look at it next week with your thoughts on what you're trying to get us to look at. Krauss: We also have for the next meeting another work item, and I know from talking to Commissioner Erhart about it, it's one that we've been meaning to tackle for quite a while. We got approval from Metro Council to lower our lot sizes in the rural area. We're scheduling an ordinance Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 47 amendment to follow up on that for the next meeting. 8atzli: I'm sorry, to do what? Krauss: If you recall with the Lake Ann agreement, we got that contract change which authorizes us to lower the lot area below 2 1/2 acres but that's what our ordinance says right now. In the rural area. So we need to amend our ordinances accordingly. Batzli: I thought you could only be 2 1/2 acres if you were prior, if you subdivided it prior to the? Krauss: No. What you can have is,-you're subject to the i per lO acre density cap now but you also have to have 2 1/2 acre lots. The premise we were looking at is if you have 40 acres, instead of having l0 acres of it in 4 lots, you may be able to have four 1 acre lots as long as you can meet the drainfield requirements and leave the rest of your land open. So we're . - not messing with the density. .. Batzli: Okay. Remind me to ask you about a conversation we had months ago about leaving open space like that and who's going to care for it. Let's talk about it then. Let's move on. OISCUSSION OF /%MENDMENT RE~RRDIN~ S~L[$ OF SEXUALLY ORIENTED MATERIAL. Batzli: I understand this came from the Council. Krauss: Yes. And that Roger didn't have a chance to finish that one before the packet date so we'll get that on your next meeting. In the past I don't think too much has changed. You can regulate the sales of sexually oriented materials. It's very difficult to do and you want to get away from that community standard and all that. But in essence to regulate it, to ban it from some part of your town you.have to allow it someplace else. You can't totally prohibit it so basically you wind up having to consign a portion of your town over to the possibility of having this stuff and what area do you want to write off. Roger was quite specific. You Can't hang it on a bluff in the middle of nowhere-or in an industrial park. It's got to be in a consistent retail area. Batzli: Well the issue for us right at this point is, in the past we've. looked around at each other and said do we want to do anything with this? Everybody said no and we've just dropped the ball. I understand now that the Council is requesting that we do something with it? Krauss: Well the Mayor asked that we bring this up. when I showed him your list of work assignments for the next year, he specifically asked about this one. Frankly I mean, I don't know what Roger's going to tell us exactly but if he tells us what he's told us before, you may draw the same conclusion but we can carry that forward to the City Council. Farmakes: I have a question on the one thing. It said business and it didn't say material and this one says material. Does that refer to two bars or that type of thing where they have entertainment or are we talking in here about? Planning Commission Meeting February 19, 1992 - Page 48 Krauss: It was an inopportune choice of words. It's supposed to apply to all of it as I understobd what the Mayor was looking at. $o you've got the bars. You've got the videos. You've got whatever else is being sold. Lady ina.: films? Would that apply to like a Video Update that would sell X rated Krauss: Well theoretically it could. Farmakes: What is the application to the entertainment though of that sort of thing? We don't have bars here that provide that.' Krauss: Roger's told us that we have, or the Council has a tremendous amount of latitude over bars because we can do virtually anything we wa~t with a liquor license and courts won't overrule you. Farmakes: Minneapolis is wrestling with that right now aren't they? Krauss: Yeah they are and I'm not sure why the premise seems to be sO much different in Minneapolis but here you can attach, we've been told you can attach conditions to a liquor license that would mrohibtt that. Batzli: So what we're going to do now is we'll wait for Roger and discuss it next week and all of us need to try and decide whether we want to consign this type of businesses to. a certain part of Chanhassen before the fact or wait for one to come in. That's the bottom line decision. Conrad moved, Erhart seconded to adjourn the meet[ng. All voted [n favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10:30 p.m.. Submitted by Paul Krauss Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim