CC Minutes 7-9-07City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
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LAKE RILEY WOODS 4 ADDITION: CONSIDER APPROVAL OF PRELIMINARY
AND FINAL PLAT.
Public Present:
Name Address
A.G. Peterson 9525 Highview Drive, Eden Prairie
Boyd Peterson 9860 Pioneer Circle
Steve Taylor Carver County
Kate Aanenson: Thank you Mayor, members of the council. This item is a request for a
subdivision to create 6 outlots for public right-of-way on Pioneer Circle, Lake Riley Woods 4th.
The subdivision will allow the transfer of 4 lots to the abutting properties. Pioneer Trail, the
Halla golf course, 9 hole course and 101 on this side and Deerbrook Trail. The history of this
plat is stated in your staff report are existing large lot homes were identified in here that some of
these houses were built '52. To the best of our knowledge this house is quite a bit older. And
then 1965 and 1962. None of them met the requirements of the underlying zoning district at the
time that they were built. Since then we've gone to the 2 1/2 acre minimum so they're a legal
non-conforming at the time. Again these are lots that do not have sewer and water and as part of
the overall update of the sewer plan, we did look at providing sewer, that's one of the options that
we're looking at. Not that it's out intent but we want to look at that and put it in for financial
modeling, but it's not our intent to buy that. This property, the plat that we're looking at was the
result of Pioneer Trail being moved to the north and it was an extraction actually from property
to the north so this property that's abutting that is gaining additional property was never extracted
from them, so it's just a give back to clear up a remnant piece that the county owns. In an
original communication the city staff with the county, it was our desire to provide some
additional drainage. Now unfortunately we miscommunicated and the plat was drawn up and
presented to a neighbor that really didn't meet the city's needs because we have some drainage
issues out there and I'll speak to those in a minute. So the goal that it provides access to these
properties from Pioneer Circle as indicated in the staff report to give access. So all the lots, to
give them right-of-way to make them whole as far as meeting the standards, to give access to
Pioneer Circle except for this existing lot. We have spoken with the county and we may be able
to get an easement across that in the future if the county wants to update that road. This again
would remain with the County to provide a possibility for a drainage, I mean driveway easement
to go across that property in the future so then they would all have, that wouldn't be done today
but the county did want to…
Mayor Furlong: I'm sorry widen what, Pioneer Trail?
Kate Aanenson: Pioneer Trail, right.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: Upon addition, if they need additional right-of-way. So then the Outlot A is
where the city was looking at for providing the storage for additional drainage easement. On the
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City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
compliance table on your staff report on page 6 you can see how much property each lot is
getting. Again that makes them whole as far as our lot standards, access to the public street itself
and so none of that's really changing. It's just on paper. The right-of-way that they're getting
dedicated. So why is the city looking at taking additional drainage? I just wanted to look at this
map. So this is the subject site itself. You did receive a letter presented to you from Mr.
Peterson, Boyd Peterson who's one of the lots, who wanted the additional property that's was…
to the property owners. In this area right here of Pioneer Circle and somewhat Deerbrook, it
drains towards the Halla property and we have a pipe that's coming down on Frontier Road that
actually comes across here through a pipe, underneath the road. We have a lot of erosion. This
is one of the projects that water resources was working in right now doing a rain garden, but we
wanted to provide some additional holding capacity upstream so while the letter does state that
we don't have a project in place, we don't. We're working on one…put into the CIP and we'll be
developing a future plan to provide additional ponding. And then if there is additional capacity
we can maybe use it for wetland banking or something like that but it's our intention to provide
that additional capacity. Again it's not just the Pioneer Circle area but some of Deerbrook too.
Again all those subdivisions were put in place without stormwater capacity. The City's rationale
and unfortunately we miscommunicated on the size of what we needed when it came back and
we said well that's not going to be big enough for our needs so that was the miscommunication
and request. So again, this takes the, some of the property back to the property owners instead of
leaving it all in the name of the county. Something that they intended to do for a while and
they're finally cleaning up. So with that the Planning Commission did hold a public hearing on
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June 19 and they did recommend 7-0 to approve the plat as shown before you tonight. So with
that we are recommending approval with the conditions in the staff report and I'd be happy to
answer any questions that you have.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any questions for staff? Okay, good. Mr. Taylor, any comments
of the applicant?
Steve Taylor: Just a couple of quick comments if I could. Good evening Mr. Mayor and City
Council members. I'm Steve Taylor. I'm the Administrative Services Division Director with
Carver County and I just want to let you know that I personally did speak with all the
homeowners about this proposal and I also wanted to let you know that we are in the process of
initiating a torrens action on this property to clean it up. There are gaps here. There are some
issues that are prescriptive use types of issues that we want to clean up so this is an area that
really needs to be cleaned up as far as a torrens action goes and we are pursuing that as well so,
because there are gaps on ownership areas here. They're not significant but it has caused some
problems with title work and such so we are going to be pursuing that here as well so.
Mayor Furlong: Alright, thank you. Any questions? For Mr. Taylor. No. Okay. We did
receive a letter. I know nobody spoke at the public hearing at the Planning Commission but we
did receive a letter from one property owner. Is there any comment of any individuals who
would like to provide public comment on this matter, this would be the time.
Boyd Peterson: Yeah good evening. I'm Boyd Peterson. Reside at 9860 Pioneer Circle. Just to
start out with we're just happy this process is finally this far. It has been 20 years since this has
been said to be done and there's a lot of problems with the corners and property corners. I hope
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maybe if possible everybody got a chance to actually go look at this site and not just look at the
pictures because it is quite different. Somewhat disagree, actually I really disagree on what the,
on what your staff is looking at here. This corner is a hole and I don't see how Deerbrook is
involved with the drainage of this at all. This area has been there for 20 years. That's how you
see it is how it's been for 20 years. The reason it is a wetland today is because when Pioneer
Trail was re-modified, the culvert is 3 feet higher than your original drainage that went under
Pioneer Trail at the time. So this is a created wetland. The original flowage went how it is but
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obviously lower. I am a little bit wondering too how we're included as Lake Riley Woods 4
st
Addition. You know this property has been there for 50-60 years. How come we're not 1
Addition but somehow we fell within the Lake Riley Woods project. And at the time in that
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whole area is 2.5 acre minimum lots, but yet we're always lined up with 4 Addition Lake Riley
Woods and it seems to me this is the time to get everybody within the property of the zoning of
how it stands today if we're going to be under this Lake Riley Woods. As far as this wetland and
management project, as I outlined a little bit in there, I'm a little bit concerned about what kind of
project they've got lined up because the lowest point of this property is where you see it on the
far bottom northwest corner, which is adjacent to Halla Greens Golf Course. Now I don't know
if anybody's gotten a chance to look at that algae pit that's going there but that drainage is going
to have to be dealt with in a big way and whatever drainage from over there is going to drain into
this wetland project. And therefore it's going to eventually, if the plan goes through, it's going to
head right on down the stream to the lowest pond of Lake Riley itself, into the Lake Riley-
Purgatory watershed to the Minnesota River. I guess that we've prepared to let everybody know
they're putting golf course fertilizers right on down into the river because that's exactly what
we're going to do. You know if you look at that area now, it's done real fine for 20 years. I
mean it's taken care of itself and most of the area that they want to make wetland, like I stated I
hope everybody's looked at it, it's trees. There's native trees. There's big, large trees. I don't see
how anything could be growing in a wetland with trees of that size. So what do you do? Cut
down a woods to make a wetland you know? And another problem you've got there is there's the
pipeline is right across that corner. So there's a lot of issues that I think ought to be looked at
before just cutting these lines in and saying okay, let's make this a drainage pond but I think if
anything could be done with it with what I've proposed would be a line that would be a
reasonable line which would be enough high ground left over and enough low ground to do a
little project if that's what it's going to be. You know, but do we want to throw money at that? I
think, I don't know and I don't see how when all is said and taken care of a golf course's problem
of their drainage and then send it down the river. And if it ends up being in front of my house
and I've got an algae pit that I've got to look at down there, I won't be too happy as a neighbor.
That area's done fine by itself for 20 years so there's probably many more things I can say but I'm
not going to take a lot of time. We've outlined it. I couldn't make the Planning Commission
because I was up in North Dakota University with my son. Otherwise you know I thought a
letter would be enough but my proposal is, is just take that property and X it up a little bit
different and let's get everybody close to 2.5 acres if we're falling under this zoning of this area
regardless if we're old. Seems like we're old but yet we're new. So I'd say let's go with the
newest proposal and get everybody up to code and let's just make some square corners instead of
all these outlots again. Our original proposal from the county was quite a bit different than what
it is today, and I understand the city wants to get as much wetland area as possible because we're
losing it faster than we're gaining it and they all of a sudden see a section that they can do
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City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
something with. That's fine if it's something they can do something with there, but I potentially
don't see what can be done but do a lot more harm. Thank you.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Ms. Aanenson, thoughts. Comments and direction.
Kate Aanenson: Again the pond is not intended to treat Halla's ponding. This is ponding that
goes to the Deerbrook trail side and across these properties. There's actually two ponding areas
that were identified in the staff report. Outlot E and Outlot A were planned to ponding sites.
Again the purpose of ponding site is to clean it up before it, to pre-treat it so that should improve
the quality, and that other pond that's on Halla's is not intended to be, that's an aesthetic type
pond.
Councilman Litsey: So the pond helps pre-treat it and not so much control the rate of the water.
Kate Aanenson: Exactly. And that's what's causing the erosion across the street as I pointed out,
and that's what we're trying to reduce the velocity and hold that in.
Councilman Litsey: So both uses will hopefully help with the water downstream.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Anyone else? Have comments. Okay, thank you.
Appreciate that. Let's bring it back to council for thoughts, discussion, additional questions of
staff.
Councilman Peterson: I guess I had one more question Kate. I'm searching for the relevance of
rdth
what we call this area, whether it's 3 Addition or 4 Addition. I'm assuming there isn't any
relevance to it from a legal standpoint or from a land standpoint.
Kate Aanenson: No. Correct.
Councilman Peterson: You just.
Kate Aanenson: We call it the Pioneer Circle area, yeah.
Todd Gerhardt: But wasn't there an underlying land that was a part of the Lake Riley Woods is
why you came up with this one?
Kate Aanenson: That's my understanding this goes way, way back.
Councilman Peterson: But again it's a name. We could have picked all of it. Timbuktu
Addition 3.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
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Councilman Peterson: Yea I think, Mr. Mayor I think it's consistent with other stuff that we've
done in the community. It looks, I try not to peel back the onion so far that I start saying what
should and shouldn't be holding ponds and types of water going in there. I assume our staff has
looked at that and this is the best thing for the city and the lake and the river and everything else
so I certainly don't see the reason why the staff's recommendation isn't solid in this case. I
certainly look forward to approving that.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Any thoughts?
Councilwoman Tjornhom: I guess, I'll go next. I read the Planning Commission summary and
you know I think the other one was kind of worried about homeowners actually gaining property
at this point and nothing's going to happen to it or you know, so I think it's a positive thing that
you know this has been in the works for 20 years and finally it's coming to completion so I guess
I have no, the Planning Commission didn't seem to have any concerns so I'll follow their lead
and not have any concerns also.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Councilwoman Ernst.
Councilwoman Ernst: Kate, just looking into the future do you see any potential issues with the
direction that we're going with? I mean.
Kate Aanenson: No, and I think that was, if you look at, even if we combine the lots, all these
lots are undersized. They're already legal non-conforming. The only thing that would change is
we move through looking at the sewer study and the possibility of providing sewer to this area
and what that timeframe would be. Right now we have it in 2020. We just talked about some of
the modeling and potentials for looking at that. So that shouldn't change it. At best it would stay
if we did provide sewer and water, it may be problematic even to subdivide then just based on
the road access. We try not to have 2 driveways on one lot so it's just a little more problematic.
So really you're just getting the county's cleaning it up. Putting in the road right-of-way and
giving them some additional property. Trying to keep everybody an equal footing, and then
meeting the City's needs and that's the part that got miscommunicated. What we actually needed,
the size.
Councilwoman Ernst: So what's been said before then, the standard width is what we do within
the city.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Councilman Litsey: Yeah, pretty much agree with what's been said. It seems like a reasonable
approach. I like the fact that it's going to help with, hopefully purify and slow the rate of water
going downstream in that watershed area. I think that's a positive thing for the city to take
advantage of that opportunity now. So I would support it.
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Mayor Furlong: Thank you. I like the, as I understand the purpose here and again this is left
over from 20 years ago so we're doing something that should have been done a while ago which,
but you can't go back so let's do it now but the key here is, is to give each of these properties
direct access to a public right-of-way and to correct…where it doesn't exist. So that's the
primary purpose. I think as mentioned here and was glad to hear, you know anytime there's an
opportunity as well to improve that, to reduce the non-conformity, which we're reducing it from
an area standpoint, perhaps not eliminate it but also creating those access to public right-of-way,
you know if there's an opportunity to take the one property that does access with a driveway
directly out to Pioneer Trail, and work it through that Outlot E so they can come back to Pioneer
Circle and eliminate another access point, even though it's a county road, I know we do that all
the time on state roads but Pioneer Trail will continue to increase in traffic and having been out
there and trying to get out Pioneer Circle and it takes some, you've got to wait and so reducing
those points, if that's something we can do going forward, I think we should try to do that for all
the reasons that we talk about in other places but I don't think there's any reason to stop this.
That can be done anyway. With regard to maintaining Outlot A and it's size is proposed here,
and E, I support that. We're achieving a goal of providing driveway access, property owner's
access to the right-of-way. We've seen in other parts of our city where we have needs for
establishing stormwater ponds or doing some projects and having that property under control is
one area that we don't have to deal with whenever there's an opportunity to do that so. I certainly
support what's being proposed here because it achieves the goals, multiple goals at the same time
and it gets something done that I think is a benefit to all so I think going forward as proposed by
the staff at this time and recommended by the Planning Commission would concur.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Just so Mr. Boyd knows his voice, we heard you and maybe if he
could meet with staff.
Kate Aanenson: We have met.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: …feel more comfortable with what is happening so.
Mayor Furlong: But maybe before anything happen there, there would certainly be.
Kate Aanenson: Are we talking about the ponding? Oh yes, absolutely.
Mayor Furlong: Yeah there would certainly be a project would have to be, that would go up to
the entire public process. Complete with opportunities for public comment and all
neighborhoods and individual residents and nearby property owners.
Kate Aanenson: Absolutely.
Mayor Furlong: Well I hear what he's saying clearly. I think this is just a situation where we're
achieving in terms of providing, the purpose is to provide direct driveway access to a public
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City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
right-of-way. We can do that and still maintain area that can serve for another public service
which is stormwater management and I think staff's proposal fairly balances those two purposes.
Thank you. Any other thoughts or comments? If not, is there a motion?
Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve staff's recommendation.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second?
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Second.
Mayor Furlong: Made and seconded. Any discussion on the motion?
Resolution #2007-45: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilwoman Tjornhom seconded
that the City Council approves a six outlot subdivision (preliminary and final plat), plans
prepared by SRF Consulting Group, Inc., dated 5/24/07, subject to the following
conditions:
1. Outlots A and E should be deeded to the City or entirely encumbered by drainage and
utility easements granted to the City in order to accommodate future stormwater
improvements. At a minimum, all property below the 914 contour should be reserved for
future stormwater improvements.
2. Provide the City with a set of as-built drawings of the road.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
1(b). APPROVAL OF AMENDMENTS TO CHAPTER 20 OF CITY CODE
CONCERNING ZONING PERMITS, FAÇADE TRANSPARENCY, ACCESS
AND DRIVEWAYS, AND INDUSTRIAL OFFICE PARK SIGNS.
Councilwoman Ernst: As I read through this, particularly in Section 1. Page 51. Section 2 at the
bottom of page 51, and Section 3. I actually have 3 different scenarios that I'd like to express
some concerns. Do you want me to separate those as I'm talking to them or talk to them all
together? Because they are consolidated so.
Mayor Furlong: Are they all similar issue or?
Councilwoman Ernst: Yeah they are.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Why don't we talk about the main issue and then we can see how that.
Councilwoman Ernst: Well as I read through this it really feels like we're creating more
regulations where we really don't need to be creating more restrictive regulations. And for
example when we're talking about having to get a permit for, in Section 1, play houses and
fences under 6 feet high. I mean what we're doing today is working and I don't understand why
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