1993 07 12CH~IHASSEN BOARD OF
ADJUSTNENTS AND APPEALS
JULY 12, 1993
Chairman Johnson called the meeting to order.
NENBERS PRESENT: Wiiiard 3ohnson, Carol Watson and Hark Senn
STAFF PRESENT= Paul Krauss, Planning Director; and Sharmin Al-3aff, Senior
Planner
PUBLIC H~ARI~:
20 FOOT LAKESHORE SETBRCK ~ND ~J~ 8 FOOT SIDE Y~D SETB~:K FOR PU~E OF
CONSTRUCTZNG A DECK RND A PORCH RT 36i8 RED CF_D~ POINT. BETSY ~E)IN~,
Chairman 3ohnson called the public hearing to order.
Al-Jarl: This parcel is a riparian lot located on Lake t4innewashta. [t has
an existing house on it. The applicant is requesting to add a porch and a
deck. Here are the additions. The addition is going to be set back 65
feet from the lakeshore. The ordinance requires a 75 foot setback. The
existing structure has a variance already. It's grandfathered in. It's a
non-conforming use. It's set back 6.35 feet from the property line. The
side yard property line on this side and I believe it's 5 feet on the other
side. Nhat the applicant is proposing to do is reduce that setback even
further by coming out on the side and then because the property lines are
not parallel to the house, if we extend any lines we're going to get even
closer to the property line on both sides. Also, what's happening is we
are increasing the hard surface coverage on the property. The ordinance
allows up to 25~ hard surface coverage and this is definitely going to be
over 25~ of the hard surface coverage. We believe that there are other
ways of designing the deck or the porch where.
3ohnson: Which is which, by the way? What's the deck and what's the
porch?
Al-Jarl: This is the porch. This is the deck.
Betsy Anding: The other way around.
Al-Jarl: Is it the other way around? Other way around, I apologize. This
is the porch and this is the deck. They could design it to where they
would extend the lines parallel to the side property line on both sides and
basically reduce the area. We noticed that within the Red Cedar Point area
there was quite a few parcels that had similar setbacks so they're not
going to be creating a precedent. It will fit with the neighborhood.
However, there are issues with the hard surface coverage or the other, the-
side yard setbacks that [ was not comfortable with and we're recommending
that the applicant changes the design to meet at least some of those
ordinance requirements. And with that we're recommending approval of the
setback from the lake only and maintain the existing side yard setback.
3ohnson= And the hard surface coverage.
Al-Jarl: And the hard surface coverage would have to be reduced to meet
the 25~. Because otherwise we're creating a lot of hard surface. What's
Board of AdJustment and Appeals
July 12, 1993 - Page 2
going to happen is the water's going to run straight into the lake. Well
it will still have enough distance to filter before it gets to the lake but
not, there's a reason why the DNR designated so much distance from the lake
and we're already intruding into that distance. From 75 to 55 so if we
increase the hard surface coverage even more than 25~, what's going to
happen is we're going to have water that hasn't been cleaned and then it
would go into the lake. So yes, there's a har'dship. ! mean they don't
have a deck. They don't have a porch. There is nothing out'there so they're
entitled to something but not to the extent that they are requesting.
Johnson: Why do we classify decks as hard. surface?
Al-Jarl: Pardon?
Johnson: Why do we classify decks as hard surface?
AI-Jaff: Anything that's going to cover the.
Watson: Even though water and stuff can run underneath it?
Johnson: I mean the water still goes right through it. You don't build a
solid pad.
Al-Jarl: We've always, because most probably the water is going to Just
run over the deck and then straight into one area.
Johnson: It goes through it.
Al-Jarl: But that is the definition of the DNR.
Watson: Because usually if you put something underneath them because they
erode and stuff underneath decks.
Johnson: Is the applicant here wish to speak?
Betsy Anding: Yeah. Do I have to go up there?
Johnson: Yeah. State you~ name.
Betsy Anding: Betsy Anding. I guess I Just wanted to clarify something.
On the west side of the house the recommendation was that we maintain the,
I think it's 6.35 foot yard setback and the concern that is raised is that
that was where, the plans didn't really show it but that's where we
intended to put a ramp so it's wheelchair accessible. So that's why it
extended 4 feet past the existing house. To be wide enough for a
wheelchair and what I was told was that for every foot high, a ramp has to
be 10 feet long. So that seemed to be the only place where it would
logically fit so [ guess I Just wanted to clarify that. If you had any
questions about it. Does that make sense?
Al-Jarl: There is the ramp right here. I should use a different color.
Betsy Anding: It would run the whole length of the house at that length.
Board of AdJustment and Appeals
July 12, 1993 - Page 3
A1-Jaff: Oh, from this point?
Betsy Anding: Yes.
Al-Jaff: So here the Tamp is 4 feet wide, correct? And it runs into the
entire length of the house.
Senn: So in effect the variance is added onto the house. I mean if you
just dreN that Tight, the variance isn't being created by something else,
but the deck is being created all the Nay along.
Al-Jarl: Correct.
Johnson: Are there any neighbors here that Nish to speak?
Al-Jarl: You have the letter that, pardon?
Betsy Anding: You have the letter that Seim's Nrote. They are the
neighbors.
Al-Jarl: Yes. There is a letter that came in.
Betsy Anding: The side Nhere the deck's going to be...
Al-Jarl: Correct. They are on this side.
3ohnson: I guess I don't have any problems Ntth the lake setback but I
c~on't like to encroach any more on either of the proper.ry. ! go along with
staff. It's getting too close.
Ri-Jarl: To the property lines.
Johnson: The property lines noN.
Watson: The other thing is Nith the porch and a deck is, the porch is a
more structure that Ne're getting close to the lake Nith rather than, if
the deck Nere on that side. Decks, people can see over them and around
them easier than they can, a porch is like building a house.
Al-Jarl: Well actually it's the deck, This is the deck.
Watson: So on the lake side Ne actually have the porch Nhich is more of a
structure than a deck coming out to~ard~ the lake is. People don't usually
find a deck an obstruction, or as much so. Depending upon the height of it
but as a porch, but a porch is actuaily structure.
Al-Jarl: Correct, rather than an accessory structure.
3ohnson: Ho~ deep is that porch going to be, c~o you kno~? Put you on the
spot, [ 'm sorry.
Al-Jarl: That's okay. I should have had this open.
3ohnson: I've got it here too. From the house to the lake. That's ali
Board of AdJustment and Appeals
July 12, 1993 - Page 4
I'm concerned about.
Al-Jeff: Okay. The house towards the lake is 16 1/2 feet and that would
be the porch.
3ohnson: That's a pretty big structure.
Al-Jarl: And it would be set back 55 feet from the edge of the lake.
Johnson: As it stands now, I walked the property today and most of them
homes are pretty much in line right now.
Watson: $o it's 16 1/2 x 30 1/2 feet? That porch.
,
Al-Jeff: Correct.
Watson: That's big.
Al-Jarl: Yes, it's almost another home.
nice size porch.
That is a big porch.
Real big porch.
That's bigger than my home.
Yeah, the addition is more than half the house.
What's the need for the ramp?
Johnson:
Watson:
Johnson:
A 1-Jaff:
Johnson:
Audience
Johnson:
· ..wheelchair. I'm in a wheelchair.
I don't want to be any closer to the property line than we are on
Al-Jeff: Now, if I may add. According to our ordinance, you could pave.
You could have a concrete slab. That doesn't require a variance. My
question would be, when does it cease to be Just a concrete slab and-that's
something that I would have to check with our building official,
Watson: You mean like a deck part? The deck portion?
Al-Jeff: No, the ramp part. If somebody comes in and Just ~ants to pave a
concrete slab on the floor, we don't interfere. They don't have to come in
for a permit so.
Watson: So in reality though, as long as we put this ramp up along that
side of the house at all, because as long as you put it up along the
existing side of the house, ~e're, does the ramp qualify as a structure?
I mean a deck does, a ramp almost would have to.
Al-Jarl: I wish I would have known about this earlier. I would have
checked with our building official.
Another room, I'm sorry. It's a
the existing home now.
Board of AdJustment and Appeals
July 12, 1993 - Page 5
Senn: I wasn't looking for that when I went out. Do you have an entrance
now at grade?
Betsy Anding: I'm sorry.
Senn: Do you have an entrance now at grade to the house? Is your entrance
at grand, more or less?
Watson: Can you walk right into the house?
Betsy Anding: We've got stairs.
Senn: You have what, one step there or what?
Al-Jarl: Three steps I believe.
Betsy Anding: Three on this side.
Senn: On the front entry.
Audience: Yes. Where they want to build a ramp, there's a walkway now.
AI-Jaff: I wasn't aware of that ramp either, and it's not reflected on the
plans. So I apologize. I haven't even addressed it in my report but'I
wasn't aware of it.
Senn: It's not even on the drawing so how would you know.
Al-Jarl:
Watson:
I mean none of the plans really show it.
·
...situation along that side of the house.
AI-Jaff: Yeah, the plans are incomplete.
Johnson: I Just don't feel, as I stand right now, I don't feel we should
be crowding the side setbacks. I have a Iot of probIems with those side
setbacks. As I travei, even Iook at different neighborhoods around the
United states this last week, I'd Just hate to, some of them places I see
are so crowded you open your door and you're in the next guy's yard.
Senn: Yeah, I Just look at this. [ mean basically you have the house here
and it seems to me this is where you ought to be putting the porch. Here.
You ought to put the deck here which is going to leave this site open...
going with the ramp to an entry at the porch on the side simply because the
only reason you're giving a variance then is for the handicap ramp period.
But see that means moving the porch, over to here. 'The more obtrusive
structure. Bringing it back and putting the deck' out here where it should
be.
(There were a number of conversations g.oing on at the same time at this
point. )
Al-Jarl: May I add something?
Board of AdJustment and Appeals
July 12, 1993 - Page 6
Johnson: Yes.
Al-Jeff: If we compare a ramp to a staircase. We allow staircases to
encroach 2 feet. 2 i/2 feet into a setback.
Senn: Either way you're still in a variance situation.
Al-Jeff: They are still in a variance situation, correct.
Watson: I certainly like that design a lot better.
Johnson: I wonder if they couldn't redesign that.
Al-Jeff: There has to be other, I mean.
Watson: Maybe we need to have them go back to the drawing board but give
them some parameters by which we would.
3ohnson: Yeah, we could table action.
Senn: Table and bring it back.
Watson: And bring it back to us. But give them some guidance as to what
we were thinking, yeah. What we were thinking.
Senn: Well then I'll move that we table it and give them our thoughts and
they can come back next meeting.
Al-Jeff: Okay.
Senn: I'll show you and then at the same tt~,l. I think we're all saying
the same.
Watson: And they're free to do whatever they want with any configurations.
This is kind of what we, what we might be more comfortable with.
Senn: Yeah, here's basically what we're.
Watson: Yeah, he's got a drawing...And I guess I had some question why the
deck, which usually erodes underneath and needs rock under tt...would be
considered hard surface.
Ri-Jeff: That's why we're, the question Is why would it be considered?
Senn: Why would it be hard surface. That's something we need to look at.
Watson: Because you know, for the most part...
Al-Jeff: Because some would cover it on top and then the water wouldn't
drain through it. It would just go over the roof and then Just drain
straight down.
Johnson: Yeah, if they enclose the deck.
Board of Adjustment and Appeals
July 12, 1993 - Page 7
Watson:
has...
Johnson:
Watson:
Johnson:
If they enclose the deck, that's different but a regular deck
But we'd never give an enclosure on something like this anyway.
No. No way. You'd never get enclosed.
It isn't in the ordinance that it should be, what would you say.
A structure to get it in there.
Senn: That can be one of the conditions in our variance that Says they
can't come back...
Watson: But if they would like to.
Senn: SO, should we do that?
Al-Jeff: Okay. Okay.
Johnson: We're going to table this here and you can get with Sharmtn. See
if you can't come up with a different design for that section. We've given
her the information and you can work with her and see what you can come up
with.
Watson: And then we'll just come back and look at it again but Mark drew
it on his and Sharmin's got it.
Al-Jeff: I'll work with you on it. We need to change the design a little
bit. I'll talk to you after the meeting...
~mI~L OF MINUTES:
Watson moved, Johnson seconded to approve the Minutes of the Board of
Adjustment and Appeals meeting of Monday, June 28, 1993 as presented. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
Watson moved, Senn seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
You have 4 different Minutes to approve. You wanted them from
Al-Jeff:
April on.
Watson:
A 1-Jeff:
Watson:
Oh, they're all attached here?
Yeah.
Okay, got it.
Senn: I thought we were approving them ail.
Al-Jeff: Okay, fine. Perfect.
Senn: I thought we were.
Board of Adjustment and Appeals
July 12, 1993 - Page $
Watson: Are we meeting in a week on that one or two weeks?
Al-Jaff: Actually it might be the first week of August. Or second week of
August. I could drive back. I'm taking 2 weeks off. I could drive back
Just to come for this and then head back down.
Senn: If that's the only item, why don't you, and you get that worked out,
Just put it on. You don't have to be here.
Al-Jarl: Or another staff member could look at
Senn moved, Watson aeconded to adjourn the meeting. Ali voted in favor and
the morton carTied. The meeting uae adJouTned.
Submitted by Paul Krauss
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim