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1991 02 06CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING FEBRL~. RY 6, 1991 Chair%an Emmings called the meeting to order at 7:40 MEMBERS PRESENT: Ladd Conrad, Annette El lson, Steve Emmings, Joan Ahrens, ~rian, Batzli, Jeff Farmakes and Tim Erhart STAF~ PRESENT: Paul Krauss, Planning Director; Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Plan~r; and Charles Folch, Asst. City Engineer PUBL]~C HEARING: PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE TWO PARCELS INTO ONE LOT AND TWO OUTLOTS ON PROP~TY ZONED 8H, HIGHWAY BUSINESS DISTRICT AND LOCATED NORTH OF HWY S JUST ~AST OF GREAT PLAINS BLVD. ON WEST 79TH STREET, GATEWAY FIRST ADDITION, LOTUS REALTY SERVICES; and ~ CONDQTIONAL USE PERMIT FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A 1,238 SQUARE FOOT BUILDING TO B~ LOCATED ON LOT 1, BLOCK 1, GATEWAY FIRST ADDITION ON PROPERTY ZONED 8H A~D LOCATED ON WEST 79TH STREET, VALVOLINE INSTANT OIL CHANGE. Public Present: N~me Address . Scot~ & Teresa never 7220 Frontier Trail BradiJohnson 7425 Frontier Trail Robert Mikulak 3041 So 4th Avenue, Minneapolis Lynd~ Nordeen 3041 So 4th Avenue, Minneapolis Jo A~n Olsen presented the staff report on these items. Chairman Emmings called the public hearing to order. BradiJohnson: Mr. Chairman and members of the Plannin~ Commission, I'm Brad~Johnson.~ I live at 7425 Frontier Trail. I'd like to addresshthe plat~in~ issues and then Robert Mikulak and Lyndon Nordeen are wit ValvOline and they'll address the site plan issues themselves and review what. they're plannin~ on doing. A little background on this particular site We've been involved in it now and as you will recall, originally prop sed a Hardee's~ a restaurant there, and have decided that it is just very! difficult to package it because having to deal with both Brown, the Stand'lard Oil station and Hanus. You get too many players.]~oing too many diff,~rent directions so, we are concerned long term because we also reprgsent the people that own the Hanus building. That ultimately this piec~ of land be developed and be upgraded. To do that we first of all havel to have a tenant for the Kurver's parcel which is the one we're trying to ~bdivide so we can generate some increment. So what we're trying to do is w~rk with the City to solve some problems that we perceive that exist ther~ and the City's addressin~ some of the problems they also feel that exi~ there. One of the problems lon~ term was that the Brown's Car Wash is o~ a 10~000 square foot lot which does not conform to any lot size in tha~ particular district currently. So he has a~reed to purchase 10,000 Planning Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 2 squar~ feet from this lot which we would then attach to his lot and at that pointi he would have a full size lot so that I believe Paul in the future if theft'was a building permit issued or rebuilding, it would be a buildable lot. ~ Currently it'd be very difficult to modify the building or pull a permi~ because it's a conditional use on a non-conforming lot so long term I thi~k that solves that corner so the corner will now have a full size lot. ~ Emmiff~gs: Excuse me. What's the status of that sale? Is there a purchase agre ,(~ment signed? , Brad~Johnson: Yes. Emmi~gs: Oh, okay. Brad~3ohnson: We can meet the conditions, most of the conditions that Paul is r~quiring here. I just did not want to have everybody involved in the platting process because not so much, because you've got to get them to agree on everything, and especially Minister's Life which is in fee over on the ~anus site. So I think we've solved that problem there. We're going to, ~ believe Paul is requiring or the City is requesting a turn lane there in c~se we have some stacking problems on the north side. We'll also be landscaping along the tracks where the cars are currently parked so that woul~ improve tbs look of that. What ~e're going to do is, Valvoline is not requesting any increment at all for their particular project or any assistance from the City so we'll use the increment and just apply that towa"d the initial upgrading of the street and site improvement. The 6,000 square, approximately 6,000 square foot lot on the east side, the reason we'r~ also involved in this and the Hanus building is that there really isn'N sufficient parking. There's sufficient parking for the building on the 9anus site but much of it's to the rear and our plan is to initially now,i with a new tenant moving in, upgrade, continue to upgrade that building to a more retail type facility and in order for them to handle the par k6ng that will probably be required, we need some more parking out f'ront so ~ adding that 6,000 square feet we'll be able to add some parking in ther~ and actually have 3 rows of parking and we'll be coming back to cha~ge that in the near future. As far as the conditions are concerned tha~ they are requesting, there's some coordination problems of getting tax parc~, ls and legal descriptions to match and we're working with the City AttOrney trying to accomplish that because it is our intent to add the two parcels together and make them one tax parcel each. I think number one, ~e don~t have any problem with. Number two we don't. I only have, in this particular project, we're only involved with the increment that Valvoline's inc~ement. We obviously can't pledge increment from a Brown site or an · AmoCo site or something like to this particular project. We do have excess inc~ement currently over on the Hanus building. Everything that's been built in that area has been built after the date of the establishment of the~district so we have some increment that we can apply and in working wit~ the HRA, I think we can take care of the cost of the necessary imp{ovements that way. I'm not sure on number 5. We have a purchase agr%ement ~ith the City on the purchase of the lots behind the Hanus bui.din~.~ We are doing everything ~ithin our efforts to close that. Obv'ously it's up to the City to ultimately accept it so if they never accept the back two lots, we would certainly like still to be able to go for% ard with the platting of this so we re doing everything we can Plann"ng Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 3 think!that issue should be worked out between now and the Council meeting with the HRA and we should have established the date of closing but that condition could potentially, the owner on the development of this lot if in fact ~or some reason we can't close with the City which simply means that we could not meet their requirements so I'd like to have that deleted. Howevar, we would agree to the upgrading of ?gth. Ne own that parcel but all tisree parcels have to be sold together. You can't just pass the, because ot= tine current ownership, pass just the 79th parcel or parcel 1 on your ~ap over to the City. So that could cause a long term problem. Currehtly it would not cause a problem. I think that's why Paul put it in there because it's perceived that we will close on this but I think it's unfa~ for Valvoline to be held up because of some reason that he can't, title~ problem or something that we can't close on the back property. And then ~4e will be presenting a proposal to the HRA to go over this at their 21st Meeting to discuss the assistance that would be necessary and this assistance that we're looking for Paul is in the standard type of assistance that are used within the City for this type of effort. With 3 year ~program and it's pretty much of a standard thing so I don't think we'l~ have any problems there. So that's where we stand on the plat and the ~easoning behind it. Any questions for me? Emmi~gs: Yeah. Also on the other outlot, is there a purchase agreement mith~the owners of the Hanus property to purchase that? ? BradiJohnson: At the present time the owners, the ownership of the Hanus may -.ransfer at the time, we have a purchase agreement to buy the Hanus building with Minister's Life and we're in final negotiations on our mortCage. And so if that actually happens, we'll own it and then we'll affect a transfer. If that does not happen, then Minister's has agreed to pure[base it. But it's just kind of up in the air and in a week or two we'l~ know exactly the status of that. As part of all that process, we will,be changing the look of the Hanus building during the summer of this yearI. Our first step is to remove the trucks. A good 3/4 of the fleet will. i be leaving here in the next 3 or 4 weeks. ConrPd: Who owns the property right now Brad? Bra~ Johnson: Lotus owns Parcel 1, 3 and 4. Minister's Life owns the Han~s building and Lotus owns the Kurver's property. And Lotus being not just-me but we have investors that are involved in that. This is, I think I'v~ explained this a couple times in past meetings. This is about the las~ time where somebody has control of the whole thing. We have it under control so a lot of the things that Paul's requesting on platting and things could be a real pain if we didn't own it all and could facilitate thi~. So we have the opportunity at this time to do that and we're more tha~ willing to do it to accomplish all these things because I think it's for ~the betterment of that site and also for the betterment of the Hanus building even if at certain ~imes it does not look that way. We're trying to ~et it there. Any other questions? Emm~ngs: No. Is someone? Bra~J Johnson: Yeah, Bob would you like to? This is Bob Mikulak and he's wit~ the development department of Valvoline. 7 Planning Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 4 Bob h~ikulak: Good evening. I'm representing Valvoline as project manager for ~e project, as I have on several around the country. This is Lynd¥ Nord ~.~n who is an area manager and he will control the operations of the stora once it is open so if you have any questions for him, we can also get hos~ answered for you Knowing that the quick lube business is new to Chanb~assen, there have been a couple of issues I guess I'd like to address firs~ that have been brought up to me at various meetings. I guess number one '.~ dealing with waste oil. If you want, you can pass these here. It seeme%d to be a large concern as to how the waste oil was handled at our facilities. What I've done is prepared a very brief little paragraph here at t~e beginning to describe it~ followed up with some backup data there and ~'11 just verbally go through it. Basically a car pulls in. The oil is tMken from the vehicle through a closed pipe system which then drains down,into a holding tank in the lower level. That is vented to the exterior through the roof and basically removed on a regular basis. Regu~ar basis meaning, depending upon the volume of the store and how the store manager operates it, will be called periodically. He checks it dailg. Behind that is some backup material about the tank itself~ The tank~is UL listed. Pressure tested. There is some MSDF sheets there which are available in our stores and are the procedures that the employees have to f~llow in case of any type of problem ~ith the waste oil and finally the site~ as all our sites are, is part of the used oil bank which was a question at preliminary basis also so there is the collection of waste oil at t~at facility. It does have a few regulations via the person bringing in hms quantity limits and the signing and basically putting their life on the ~ine as far as what they are bringing in on that data and that records are 3opt for both our company and for the State. Do you have any questions on that in particular? I would like to move on then a little bit to the building and as a preliminary to actually presenting our site and so forth~ A fe~ folks as I understand have seen some of the buildings or possibly look~d at some of our facilities around the cities~ Over the past about 2 yearb, actually it was about a year and a half ago that I remodeled ali. of our ~2 locations that we had at that point in time within the confines of the ;netro area. In reviewing some of those buildings~ I Guess I have a pictl]re here which I'll show you. Illustrates several of the sites that wer~ remodeled. Now they all resemble our prototype which is being built on ~ nation wide basis also here now of every new building we establish but we ~id acquire what would be called Rapid Oil here locally and it had several different building configurations and locations which we did go through and try to upgrade and bring into uniformity. If you've per chance see~ one of those sites, it's not a true replica of what our building is tod~y and I Guess I want to show you a couple of pictures of what that actually is and go into that. There are three pictures up across the top ~hi~h is a location at 37th Avenue in St. Anthony Village which is kind of a n~rth suburb There are four pictures below that which are larger~ One bei~ a shot o~ an interior and the other 3 being the exterior on a site we built in Golden Valley almost a year ago. That gives you a little bit of a, ~n picture format, what our new buildings do look like I guess better tha~ me trying to explain what they look like. I will also give and pass ¥ou~a sample of our exterior material that's used on the building. ~o you hav_~ any questions on those buildings that are up there? ~~ll~on: Could you pass it around? 8obiMikulak: Sure. I~m sorry. I thought the camera did it. Planning Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 5 Ellsoh' Yeah, even on the camera it's not the greatest. 8ob M"kulak' What we have Lip here is the current site plan. There are a few t~ings that were addressed in the site plan review that are listed on that ~ew drawing that I just handed Paul and Jo Ann and is also shown on this.i I guess I'll just run through the staff recommendations here. Cover them ~s we go. Number 1 was the relocation of the trash receptacle and enclc~ure that meets the required setback and that was accomplished on the plan.~ We ye basically moved it in about 7 feet so it came within the setb~k. On the copy there Paul and Jo Ann it's listed and I have some othe~ ones if you want. Number 2, I guess I would like to pass over and come ;sack to at the end. Number 3 is all deciduous trees and again we note¢' what we could on the plan. That's all been taken care of. Number in r ~ePgar'ds to the signage on the site, totally agree. We had an initial meet%ng with the staff quite some time ago which Brad was part of and we did discuss a majority of the items and agree with all that. Number 5 t. alk~ of rooftop equipment. Ne have no rooftop equipment other than a PRV which is a ventilation fan for the lower level and really Z guess there's nothing to be screened on the roof. Number 6, in regards to the contours. Extending out 100 feet off of the site, that has been accomplished on that set ~f plans also. Number 7 is in regards to some calculations in regards to t~e storm sewer and what is actually happening on that site with it~ I do,have the calculations that BRW went through on a preliminary basis for that]project. What they have calculated is a system which will handle cubie feet per second which is a flow rate. We have broken that down further to our actual parcel and what our contribution to that could be~ ~is a number at 2.2 cubic feet per second. Calculations by our staff lhat.~ or o~r engineers with the impervious area using the MnDot 10 year comes up with~a 1.8 so we are under the 2.2 that the system can handle at this point. I guess there's still some issues whereas the street and how it's all ~oing to be upgraded but on a, I guess day to day basis, we're keeping info~med of what's happening. Currently we do meet ali. that. Actually unde~ it.. There's one other issue and that was the Highway Department righ{-of-way and basically the drainage ditch along that TH 5. We have spok~ to, the Highway Department. When they calculated that ditch, they basi~allM calculated it as runoff from the entire area in that spot. Right now .~e are currently having .2 cubic feet per second flow to the ditch whiOa makes then] more than happy. As this all develops and the actual stor~ sewer system is drawn up and what we're going to do, we have a location of where we'd like our catch basin per everybody's recommendation.. It ~ shown on the plan but we do not have the connections because we basically don't know what and where it's going to go in the street yet or alo ~r(~ the street. As soon as that happens, we will certainly tie into it and ~rovide that. That goes along with number 8 basically. Number 9 is the ~oncrete apron issue and that's totally fine and I guess we usually get a c_.~y and put it in as required. If I were to now, if I could jump back to ~tem 2. We did also include I believe in the packet of information that you igor, a brief synopsis of our ideas on the traffic pattern, traffic flo~. We do develop, have developed like 300 sites around the country. I do ~:ave some other site plans which I can show you locally. I can show you Goleen Valley. I can show you Silver Lake Road. I can show you one is in 8ur~sville which are new buildings,-new developments. Typically we can't getianybody, we'd sure like it if we could get people to wait in line lone. er than a half hour but I guess if you pulled up yourself and were the~e for a quick oil change, be it a lot of people come on their lunch .i PI. anning Commission Meeting February G, 1991 -~' Page 6 t hour,~'merely has to ge~ done quickly or you leave and come back at a time ~hen ~here a~e no~ so many cars there. 0T maybe none. If k~e ~ake a look a.t ou~ particular site plan, ~e can in fact have about 12 cars backed up befor~ it gets onto the street. I don't know of any ~ay ~e'd get 12 people to ~a~t in line. If we could, we'd be happy. I won't say it's never a possieility because I can't, guarantee something I can't_ guarantee. 8ut I kno~ that. on our busiest weekends, which would be the Thanksgiving holi~y season, right in that area, I'm sure Lyndy can speak to it. He oper4ces several stores. That's the time when we are backed up most. have beveral sites around the city, 41 actually and I can go and he can take ~nd address the issue of do we ever have cars backing up out o{ the prop~ties onto the streets and I to this point have never had that occur~ I~ve Inever been informed of it. You can ask him directly. We have sites which are a lot smaller than this. One in particular that ~as brought up to m~ is Apple Valley. It's on a corner. It's very tight. There's not a lot ef room on it and yes, we do develop tight sites sometimes which you know ~e don't, have the pleasure of having all the room ~e ~ant. This particular site gives us more room than ~e need. A couple of things in relationship to that traffic flow. First presented to the City, we had two curb~cuts shown on it which allowed just basically U type pattern in and out 4f the site. There was another curb cut on the other side of the property We chose to move the one per our meeting that e,e had. Based upon'~tha{ meeting, I ~ent back operationally. It's been set up %.o operate this~Hay. We have put everything into organizing it and going ~ith this game~plan. One of the main reasons that we don't wish to change the traf']ic flo~ is because if ~e did, ~e'd have cars stacked coming in from the ~ther side which is then visible from TH 5. ~e personally, as a comp nM, don't ~ant the cars stacked coming in from that direction because it j~st doesn't look good on our site first of all. It's a hinderence to business and flat out just doesn't look good. If ~e can at any point in time~ we'd do ~hat we've done here and basically try to hide the cars from visibility. In this case I guess ~e feel it v~orks much better on the other side~ If you have some questions in specific regarding that~ certainly field them for you. ~mm~gs' Is there anything about the operation o{ the station that makes it necessary that they come in from one side over the other or isn't that a pr ob'-~em? gob qikulak: Operationally, no. We do flip {lop the building. This partiuclar building has been designed and set up and is under construction if ,u want to call it that, via plans that has it' laid out this way. To take~ this building and this particular site and just to flip the building is n-~t just {lipping the building. There are many components o~ that bui~ting inside ~hich then get reversed. Again, a lot of people just think it's:' a couple holes in the floor and that's all there is to it but it's not~ It's basically a bunch of different construction as far as steel k~ openings for the building itself For the lobby configuration. The lob~ configuration is al~ays in one position versus exiting the building so ~here are a lot of little, I guess characteristics which make it quite a cha~ge. I kind of ~ent through I guess their items on there. Covered their buildings in general as far as their appearance goes. I do have some pic{ures Hhich don't really represent the building other than in an art%stic rendering. If you'd like to see the colors a little bit better tha~ in those photographs, this gives you some color in the building. If PLann~:ng Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 7 i there ~re any particular questions on the operation, I 'm sure Lyndy ~ould be ha~p~ to ans~e~ it. ~e feel very good being able ~o have the oppo~"'unity ~o develop in Chanhassen. Very much community and ~ould like Lo be; out here. g~o~.~i~g and ~e'd like to join you. ~f you have any ques~ions, ~'11 be happ~l Lo answer ~hem. ~=11~: I've got a question. [ ~mrni~js: Go ahead. ~llscn: I'm not sure if you're aware that we're going to get an omissions testfng station or plans to have one. I don't know if it's totally been appr¢?ed or not. I wondered if some of the services you provide would coincide with some of the problems they'd find or is it basically your 10 step tthing and in and out? Bob ~;ikulak: L4e don't get into any of the other stuff and Lyndy can address the operations, strictly Quick Lube. Lynd.-- Norc{een: I'm not even sure exactly what the omission test is going to b~ doing other than they check your exhaust. We do change air filters. rpVC ~reathers. pvc valves which does affect that. To what extent, we don'z. know. It's something that Valvoline has been looking into and we don'~ know if we'we going to be maybe getting... i Ells~n: That'd be an idea], location. You'd be right across the highway and you ~ou].d get everybody whipping in there saying, go across the high~ay and get ~t fixed up there. I just thought that was an opportunity but okay. I guess we haven't really, they're instituted in the whole state so we're not qui%~ sure what they're going to be required of any of us. I had another que~[ ion. Flours of operation. Lync~ Nordeen: 8: O0 to 8: O0, Monday thru Friday. 8: O0 to 5: O0 on SatUrdays. Some of our locations are open on Sunday, 11:00 to 5:00. We ~zl~l not be open in Chanhassen on Sunday yet. It depends on, quite a 'Few Of ~ur successful stores on Sundays are near big shopping centers and as Cha~.hassen grows, quite possibly we could be open on Sunday. Ell~on' You and about half the population. Bob you were saying that lunch is c. ne of the most busiest times. Is that true for this location? Do you fee~ that the lunch hour is going to be like the busiest or is it, I'm just curious as to when the busy peak time Lyn~y Nordeen: Typically noon hour is good. It depends on the location. Som~ stores are very busy in the evening. Ell~on: Do you have an idea what you think this might be based on it's loc~tion and that? Lyn_~y Nordeen: I 'm hoping so. The Shorewood store is pretty much, TH 5 and[ TH ? are fairly parallel. The Shorewood store is very busy in the eve?lng. I've read over a few of the items on here. The traffic flow I u~derstand is a concern and I oversee the busiest area in the Twin Cities an~ we were real fortunate to get some real cold weather. We love it when .. Plannr~ng Commission Meeting Febru'""tm'r-y 6, 1991 -~ Page S it go~s to 20 below and holiday season, gnd it's very rare that a store this ~ize would have more than 4 to 5 cars waiting. Even when we're that busy., The concern with Valvoline and us is people keep on going when they see p~s~ople waiting. ~fter they're accustomed to our business, they'll come back ~ ater~ and we lose cars even if we have 2 in and no waitinG. I think 8ob 8~dressed that somewhat already. I Sob ~%ikulak: We do obviously try to tailor to the oonsumer. That's who we'r~ trying to please and gain business from~ Our business was born based on t b~at. ~mmi~s' You. don't have any outdoor storaoe ot: anything do you? 8~ P'ikulak: We have a trash enclosure which is obviously outside It will ~e enclosed and covered. There's nothing that's stored outside~ · ; Emmi~gs: .50 if there were a condition on here that there would not be any out. dior storage of anything, that would not hamper your operation in any way? Did yell have anything else you'd like to present? Bob ~ikulak: No. Thank you much. Emmi~gs' Thank you. Is there anyone else here who'd like to say anything as p~rt of the public hearinG? Batz"i moved, Erhart.seconded to close the public hearing. /%11 voted in favo~ and the motion carried. The public hearing ~as closed. ~mmi~gs' Questions and comments from the Commission. Tim? Erha~t: I didn't have anything and I missed part of Brad's presentation~ .. to s~aff's statements. Regarding the site plan however, I guess the assu~pt, ion is the rotation of the traffic is because that's the widest part of t~e lot is on the east side right? Is that why? 8ob ~ikulak: You're asking me? Erha~t: Yeah. The rotation of the traffic. I mean it seems a little funn~ that you'd have cross traffic enterino the driveway. Bob ~ikulak' We have that at a number of sites~ Erh~:'t.: Yeah I know. Let me finish the question. The reason that you hav~,~it this way is because that's the widest part of the lot? You could have! reversed the whole lot and still had your stacking behind the building had ~ou made the entrance on the west end. Bob ~ikulak' You're asking if we wanted the buildinG... Srh~t: I'm asking, in order to comply with staff's recommendation that you ~qave counter clockwise flow of traffic, you could have reversed' the whol~ lot~ Bob !-Mikulak: bJell, the position of the building was first and foremost in the ~esi.gn of the site and that's for maximum visibility obviously~ : i. Planning Commission Meeting Febru'~ry 6, 1991 - Page 9 ! cr har~, Maximum what? i Bob ~ku. lak: Maximum visibility. Maximum visibility from TH 5 and to brin~ it out so that obviously it's visible that somebody knows that we are there. We don't just develop it you know in a matter of a ~ew minutes. There~ is a lo~ of thought. There are several people that go through the revi~J of the process and cover it If the issue of crossing traffic is in the ~ck of your mind, remember that we're going to have basically a car comi~ out somewhere every 15 minutes. If we have a car coming out every 1.5 m~nutes, iL doesn't really cause an awful lot of congestion for us on t. he ~ite is the way we view it. Possibility o~ the cars backing up from stacking to that point where they would be at is, in our mind, nil and we I feel ivery comfortable with it. We'd prefer not to have the cars visible from ~TH 5 primarily in the stacking mode. Erha~t' That's going to be a marketing decision that you need to do that and i guess the issue's going to be is it that detrimental. The other one is, .~ noticed you've got a lot of Mugho Pines stated in your site plan revi.~w and I guess those are in the front so I assume ~haL you don't want anyt.~.ing ~o grow high in those two southern areas right? Again for Bob ~ikulak' For us, yeah. Erha.~t' In condition number 3 we added here that all coniferous trees must be a~minimum' of 6 feet. Are you including Paul... Okay, so you don't include that in the term coniferous? That's all I've got. Conrad: Brad, your concern on the preliminary plat recommendations is primarily point number 5. Is that right? And you're going to ~igure that one 6ut in the next, before this gets to, are you going to have a better feelS for that before it gets to City Council? 8rad~Johnson: Yeah. Basically I said I do not have control over whether _ the ~ity will close on the purchase agreement but I do not ~eel that it's lmpe~a_ive ..that this transaction cl, oses for Valvoline to build a building ther~. .. HRA, they're not concerneo with it either. We haven't talked to HRA ~ut staff from the HRA side of it. So I will try to work it through but ~'m just saying, ~rom my point o~ view, I can't guarantee that the City will~ close on the lot. We can accomplish the site plan request and we can acc~plish the ~oad improvements and we can accomplish the landscaping of Par~l 1 without closing on the back lot. Like I said, that's out of my con~ol. I don't, think it's fair, since the City is in control~ to require i Con~ad: How do you respond to that Paul? Kra~ss: There's a good reason. It's a little difficult Lo explain. We wor~ed out a program on this with the City Manager, Assistant City Manager conqerning the road improvements relative to the back lot. This is a difficult, area for us to work with. The road was built about 10 years ago and~it was not built to current commercial street standard~.~ It's under ~id~h. ~t doesn't have a turn lane by the railway tracks which is potentially hazardous. And the road's been beat up quite a bit by the hea~y t'rucks that have been using it. If the area behind the Hanus .¸i ?].annhng Commission Heeting buil,d.~ng is to be intensivel~ developed, ~e need to extend the ~oad back there, k~e bhink tha~: ~e need to have the road k~idened ~o the current stan,d~d Nh~ch ~s 36 foot N~de Nh~ch ~s qu~te an expensive pTogTam. /ookLhg a~ about $i10,000.00 expendL%uTe to do ~hab. t4hat ~e've agreed ~s t.~t s~nce the HRA ~s p~ann~ng to buy those lots back there, and s~nce ~,.~hen ~he HRA o~ns ~hem ~b ~ou~d be ~he~r J. nten~ ~o e~he~ not develop ~hat. a~ea4 Use }% fo~ ~andscap~ng ox ~hat. ever else, or very }o~4 intensity deve%~pmen~ s~noe ~e conbTo[ ~, k.~e uou~d have a comfort ~eve2 ~hat coul~ go ~ith only very s}~gh~ ~mpxovemen~s ~o ~he s~reet. So basically ~hat }~e're Le~ng Brad, and you knoka Z ~h~nk everybody's ~n agreement ~ha& ~4e'r~ going to be buying these }o~s as }cng as there's not a pollution problem or anything e~se. Tha~ ~e'~e ~4~ng ~o accep~ the icier ~eve~ stre6]t ~mprovements cont~ngen~ upon our being able to gain assuxance that k.~e'~-e' not going ~o have bo provide sexy&ce fox a ~ot of deve~opmen~ back t. her~ at some po~nb ~n ~he future, i.e. our acqu&s&~on of 'the proper~y. Brad ~nd Z ~,~ere ba~k~ng bhis mo~n~ng and k~e ~h~nk ~ha~ bhexe may be a ~ay to ~crk this out in a purchase agxeemen~. Have our City Attorney dxa¢% some~h~ng up so ~ha~ a fot~o~s B nabuxa~ty and ~e can do thab. The reason ~e ~nt t.o ge~ al} this s%ra&gh~ x~ght nok~ ~s Brad ~s p}at~'n9 the property. As a p~a~, ~e have ~he r2gh~ as a c~Ey ~o say ~e need a ~mpr~vement and a~sess ~t back ~o the pxopex&y o~ner. ~} the ~nd~x&dua}s ~nvc~ved ~ou~d p~-efer ~haL ~e no~ assess ~h~s in Lhe Lxad~ona~ manner. That.,,~e use the HRA program and finance it that ,.~ay and aga,n, ~.~ill_.~ng to do Lhat. Ue'xe in essence giving up our rights to the plat. Requiring of the plat and coming u.p Nith an alLexnative strategy. It's a litt.~e bi~ clunky because of all the diffexen~ p~opexty transactions that need~to take place but I guess it all boils down to, if our City Attorney ~rad has talked to him, and I think he can develop a purchase agreement and that..jlays all this stuff out and it's all signed, we ~ould feel comfortable leLt.~ng the plat proceed under those circumstances. So ~e think that~ ~hat;~my recommendation would be is to leave the language the ~,oay r igh~ no~ and ~e mould hope me'd have some xeso!ution of it before it goes to t~e Council. Sat. zj~: Say that the purchase agreement shall be entered into rather Lhan the ~ale shall be concluded. Ahre~s: ~ think the entering into a purchase ag~-eement is Conrad: Okay. That's my only concern on 'Lhe plat. Site plan, rny only concern is traffic circulation. ~hat's the estimated traffic count per day on ~:~e sit. e? Bob-]~ikulak: Per day, ~e're hoping to initially have 25. Less than that ~,.~o u .L ~... i Con'r~d: 25? Sob ~ikulak' Cars. Conrad: Per day? ',~ .... ~pn' In thaL 8'00 to 8:00 period of time? ! PI. arming Commission Heating Febru-~ry 6, 1991 - Page 11 ~,::,o6-[~ ~.¢ kula_ k : Some days we'll have less~ Some days ~e'll have more ~ On Satur~tay ¢~e'll have more than T~esday. Conra~' CJhat's your best store? Ho~ many cars go to your best store right Bob ~'ikulak: Best store that we have in the city? Conr,~: Yeah. :i Bob ~ikulak' The numbers that I know of, ]I'm asking Lynd¥ because I... the infor~mation that Z have taould be a 3 or 4 bay store and on a Saturday if we get '~ guess 80 cars per store, that's very good. Conr&d: All day? Ahre~s: How long does it take for a car to go through the process? Sob ~ikulak: ~pproximately in that period, depending upon what... ~,hre,~s: Average time? 8ob .~ikulak: 15-20 minutes. On the average. Lynd~ Nordeen: Some ef our higher volume stores, we now probably service flus-hing and cooling systems, changing transmission fluids. Each service ~e t~y to gear towards 10 minutes~ lhe average is around 15 so if you came in t~ have your vehicle serviced and we changed your transmission and we char~ged your oil and changed your coolant system~ you'd be in there about half~ an hour so it varies. Typical oil change of a ne~ late model vehicle~ in~d out some stores average 8 to 10 minutes. Your big vehicles~ Sub,'bans...that's about 20 minutes se it varies a little bit but our average is around 15 minutes. Con~ad: Can you add to the number of bays on this parcel? 2 is it then? 8oh iM~kulak' Our intention on this particular s~te and future sites that we ~_.evelop would be to maintain a 2 bay. N~e're planning te build more sto~es and less volume is turning out to be a better alternative er a better approach than trying to put, and again it gets back to the situation. People just. don't wait ~f there's a line of cars out there~ Con~ad-'. But if we double our population here~ we'll probably double the number ef cars i.n the next 10 years. That ~ould be pretty, your tra~:fic ie coming from the local area right? 8ebiHiku~ak' They take the basis from that a ~ot of it obviously is peopAe t. ha~ drive by on the high~ay that notice it but that in i0 years~ the yeS,me ef the store... Cen~ad: ~gain~ 25 cars a day. ~nd in 10 years maybe 50 cars a day. Lyn~7 Nordeen: Ne have 2 bays that average 3 times that a day and I kno~,~ the~ traffic flows are a concern and they rarely have maybe 2 or 3 waiting ,i Planning Commission Meeting February -6, 1991 - Page 12 , out fl'ont, all day. So even if the volume increases~ that won't be a co nc.~- n. Con~: Okay. ~ell, the staff is ~ecornmending a very logical traffic ~1o~ patt~n and ~ think you'd want to take advantage of that. If all other thin~ being the way you wanted them, I think you want your sign facing the righ~ may on TH 5 and I think you don't want to sho~ people you'xe busy. From ~that standpoint ~ guess I don't b~ant to parade cars. From an aest~'etic sta~-~dpoint, I'm not sure that I want to stack cars out on TH 5 either. I ~as pretty much concerned and very favorable toward the staff oomrn~nts but if the traffic flo~, we'we talking 3 caws pew hour, I guess I'm ~ot too concerned anymore. Those axe my comments. ErnmiTgs' Annette? El.].s~n: You know I picture that the car k~ash always seems to be busy, especially on Saturdays and I was making a comparison to that car wash~ my o~_nion, not trying to go to that car wash if there's like 3 cars out t. hexe buLa lot of times I see like 4 cars outside each bay on a Saturday r~ and $onder about those crazy people ~ho axe ~aitimg There's probably one in t.~exe plus 4 on the outside so I ~end to think t~at if people get to u. sin~ this place, that there would be 4 cars stacked up behind there and Z'm ~oncerned about the traffic and I'd like to see the staff plan implemented only because that corner already has people who stack up behind a ca~ mash. Those mould be the same people in my opinion who'd be using the ~apid oi~ change and i~ they're waiting fox a car ~ash, they'll for ~n oil change in my opinion so I think that Lhe inconvenience of chan~ing all the plans isn't a strong enough incentive fox me and I'm mot suxe{thak iL really would turn away too many people based on seeing some caxs~ wailing and I hate to think 10 years from now we said, now k~hy didn't we h~ndl~s~ that clogged area when we had the chance back when we were developing it. so that's why I'd like to handle that clogged area before iL b~comes a clogged area. I'd like to see that traffic circulation go cou~ex clockwise. That's the only thing I had. I like the idea of the lan~caping. I Lhink that looks nice. Bat~li' I have to admit I'm a user of the Shoxe~ood store. I used to cha~ge my own oil but I can hardly even find the dip stick anymore, got ~ aso much junk under the hood. But very rarely is there more than d cars sit.~ing out ~hexe and in fact, if there's more than 4 people, turn around and ~eave. Z think they're exactly right. So I don't have a problem with the ~txaffic flow. IL doesn't make much sense to me but from a marketing perspective perhaps ~t does. I don't think there b~ill be much cross t~--a~fic so ~ don't Lhink that bothers me much and it looks like theM'we trying to hide it from the woad so I guess it looks like theM're designed i?~. ~ They've Lhought about ~hese things amd so I'm not necessarily in favor* of ~hem being ~oxced to reverse the flow. You've di~cus~ed,m ~ the applicant's discussed oil. There's other chemicals that they use, fox example the antifreeze and things like that. Do you use similar systems to collect the antifreeze and transmission fluids and things? ~obaMikulak: Very briefly and quickly, yes. The ones that axe of concern ar,s~don,s} ~hat way, right. ~.mm~ngs: LObar. is a'nd what isn't? Plan s~_ng Commission Heeting ~rebru...ary 6, 1991 - Page 13 E}eb ~/ikulak' Well, we have the brake fluid. Obviously that's treated approer~ately~ Power steering flui. d~ same thing. Transmission fluid~ same thin~. When you set to windshield Hashing solution and so {orth~ that is not S chemical in the sense efa chemioa~ so it doesn't need te be treated that ~ay so it is not. ~mmi~s: What happens to that? ~ell~ you're not takin~ that out of 'v'ehidles gob ~,-J. kulak: No. We're merely adding to it but if there is spillage or if th..e. ~u¥'s ~ashing his windows in the store, obviously it occurs there. $ome~im.es they'll put a new pair of t.~ipers on and wash the windows in the cat- ~o make sure that they obviously ~ork and don't streak and so forth. ~at.z]-'i: If for example you're flushing someone's radiator and you get a largm s~il], of antifreeze and you clean it up with towels, they just get thrown in the trash? ~oh ~ikulak' I ~ouldn't say just get thrown in the trash. If you take a look lat the chemical make~up of antifreeze, it is not a pollutant as you call ia pollutant. In other ~ords~ there are different categories and I don't, knew if you want me to get into a long detailed analysis ef all. these different chemicals that are used there. It would not be mopped up with towels. It ~aeuld merely be flushed through ~hat ~e have called as an oil. wate~ separator which is basically takes care of separating out cent~minant, s before it ~ould go into the sanitary sewer system and that particular fluid which is the antifreeze~ would go through that system and thatiwoL~ld take care of that. 8at. z~i: Se that's located in the interior of the building? 8cb ilikulak' Correct. 8atz~i: So if any ef these things are somehow lost outside the building~ what! happens te them? 8ob }~ikulak: Nell, I guess generally we don't do anything outside the hul,~ng and all the draining er pitching of the floor comes back into the cen~er of the building and brings it in. If somebody drove up with a pre,leu outside, I guess the guys at the store would have to evaluate it and igc hack to the HSDF sheets and respond to that accordingly. They're pre,ably more trained in it than I am. I'd have to go to those sheets to review ek~r procedures on it for each one. 8at~li: Is the antifreeze that you take out of people's radiators, is that sto~ed and someho~ disposed of or does that go through your chemical sep.~rator ? 8eb~Hikulak: lhat goes through the system. The separator. oo.~ l i fas far as storage of chemicals on site are there any federal rog lations that you end up following, I Hould imagine? 8ob~Hiku. lak: They're not uniform all around the country. Host times it dro~s'iback rite State by State basis. In Hinnesota what we have primarily ~lann~ng~-- Comrnission Heeting February 6~ 19gl - Page 14 of coRcern is the ~.,Jaste oil and 'the new oil. He have the supply of ~in,:is~ield ~,~ashing fluid that comes under quantity limits, bJe don't really have b. nythin~ else that really falls under the impact of bein8 harmful, if you want to call it that, or if there's any 8overnmental resulations~ It all k~nd of 8oes back to uniform fire code~ HFPA requirements so that's hew ~.Je ba~e that. 8atzl~: Je Ann? %~e used to have Public Safety revie%~s of a let of these site ~D]_ans and ~ didn't see one attached to this~ Have our people revieuCed i.t? - C, lseq~ Yhey locked at it and they 3ust ~anted to give no comment~ ~ lot of t.~e stuff that they're involved ~ith comes through ~ith the building permi't application so the site plan itself they had no comment. 8atz~i: They didn't have a concern %~ith it at all for any of the chemicals or s~paraters er anything? Olse~: No. Again~ they look at that in more detail ~ith the building permit. 8atzji: Okay. Is it Charles? The applicant discussed I think sene of the revi{ion of the sewer elevations and those types ef things~ Did you need anything else? ~re yen comfortable ~ith the conditions ~e~ve got in there now? ~ Nolc%~ Yes. I~m comfortable ~ith the conditions that ~e have. Sasically the ~xequirements for the seHer elevations and some of the grade matching t. hat~ ~e~re talking about, is ~ust requirements that we would want to see pr]_o~ to final approval of the site plan approval. However though~ in reliction to the runoff calculations~ that is a requirement that ~e have. I~v~ heard numbers tonight but He would have to get those in ~riting and documented as such and ~ge will review that accordingly and have them in our fil~. Sat~li: There's a catch basin up by the entrance. ~bat part of the site wou~d drain to that? Nol~h: 8asically all of the impervious area will drain to it. The only are.~ that doesn't really drain to that appears to be a southeast and sou~hHestern corners of the site~ looking at the ~rading plan. But all ef the jimpervieus area ~ould drain to that catch basin. Satili' Se the type of catch basin envisioned is ~ust something to catch ].ea~es~ things like that? Obviously not catch oils or anything that's running off the impervious? Nel~h: Hell it probably is going to end up being just the standard catch basin grade. 8at, l i: Hy only other comment is~ I guess I have t%~o. The increment~ the third conditio~ of the subdivision. Hr. Johnson shall agree that all inc~ement generated from the Valvoline pro3ect. Jo ~nn~ are you referring to bust Net 1~ 8lock 17 The outtots? Plann{Lng Comrnission Meeting Febru~ry 6, 1991 - Page 15 Kr~u~' ~t ~ake~ a~ much increment a~ it~ going to t~ke. It look~ ~ ~hougn~ we don~ have ~ ~inal evaluation but it /ook~ cs ~hough it's going to t~ke the increment ~rom ~he V~/voline ~nd po~entially ~ome o~ the increment that's uncaptured from the Hanus building to paY for the road impr~ement. We don't have the exact numbers yet. 8a. tzi~: 5o it's the entire origina~ ~ot that you're talking about? Or are you ~lking about in relation to the one when you add like Outlet~ one o{ the ~ltiets onto tRe other property that's going to be included then? Kraus~S: It could, if they would build something on those outlots that wou. lc' increase the value and i.e. taxes. It would have an impact but there is nO use bein~ proposed for either outlot at this point in time. Se the only ~hin.:g that generates the increment is, apart from inflation is the stru .~ure that's going te be built. The Valvoline structure and the exis{ing Hanu. s building which is throwing untapped increment at this time~ Ne"ye get. it down and you know I was talking with Todd Gerhardt over the fina~ numbers which we don't have yet but it looks as though we need apprgximately $60~000.00 for the road improvement. Approximately $45,q00.00 increment of which would be generated by the Valvoline so the bala~'ce of that would have to come off the Hanus site. 8atz~i: When you say Hanus site, you're talking about other parcels that aren,t included in this subdivision? Krau~s: Correct . 8atz~i: How can you get them to agree to that in this subdivision? Krau~s: We're not going to try. We're going to ask Brad to do that since that,s the representations that are being made. And Mr. Johnson is looking at a,~quiring that property and has worked, spoken to Minister's Life and pos.s~bly Brad can explain that. He has got a working relationship with Hini~ter's Life in the meantime and has assured Lis that that's something that. lbo could fulfill. ~,~t.z,i.' I 9uess I'm concerned about the broad language. I don't know what the ~alvoline project is. I don't know if that really includes, I mean if you'~e trying to encompass additional lots, I think we should somehow clarify what we're talking about there a little bit more and I guess I don't know how to do it because I don't know what representations he's made that i you ' re trying to distill here. I'll have to work on that. My only othe~ comment is on the first condition. I'd like to amend the first sent.~nce a little bit so that it would read from after the word property t. itl~s it would read, of the adjoining parcels and that such outlots shall be c~mbined with such adjoining parcels into single tax parcels concurrent with~-recording the final plat. 3ust to clarify what the they's and those ~ That's all. I have. are .~ Stainings: Okay, Jeff? Farm~kes: I have a couple of questions. When the overall site, the location of site that s tagged on the overall map sort of blocks the le~ t. hat~ are along TH 5. I believe that would be the lot due south of this property. Is that a buildable lot due south of that property? Pi_arming Commission Meeting Feb'ru~'ry 6~, 1991 - Page 16 · -I Olmen~ ThaL's high~.~ay right-of-way~ l'rauss:-,, . It's also the ~ea~ part of the Amoco site. ! Farms<es: Correct. 8ut wight no~ as I ~eoall, it's just gott of an open fie~d~ there? Olsen~ He had p~oposed an expansion lot in the futuTe that actually inclu.~es a cat wash facility. Farmmxes: So it is owned bM Amoco? , O]_se~: A porLi, on of iL and then the Test turns into highway FaTm~es: If ~heM ~anted to access that site, ~ould them go through their m r e s .a~ t -> Olsee: They wouldn't get an additional access iron TH 5. ,--arm~kes' I guess that answers my questiou about that. If there .ts a builclng er something put back there, I guess I would net be se concerned abou~ the landscaping to the south. ~lthough you're talking about if you . agre~ with the grafT's proposal, that the traffic would come in and get s ac~d up en that side and be tine southHest part ef the property I de~t see any problem l~ith that. I don't see ~here that ~ould be aest~tica]..ly unp].easing one way or the other. Particularly if there's gein~ to be a building going in there in the future that's going te be c.,sve~ing that. area anyway. The other question I had was banners~ or buileing banners or anything of that nature. Do you intend on using any t. lnat~ I~ve seen other oil change or car businesses ~here they~ve put large building streamers. Do you intend on using any of that? kyndt~ Herdeen: It depends on what you...permit. ~e do have grand opening bann~rs. Open Sunday banners. Dependi.ng on the city ordinances. Fsrm~kes' De we have ordinances on that? ~re there, I know the one that's on T~ 7 over here is pretty much up on a semi-permanent basis. Is 'there a ]~}m}~ to that? O].se~' Right. You can get temporary signs. You're permitted those for 10 ' ' ~ !and 3 times a year A let of times that's ho~ we allow the special sign~. The banners but we ~gouldn't permit like the large blow 8ob ~.ikulak' I can explain that to you a little bit ~ith Shoreweod. The problem ~ith the Shorewood building is it's obviously one ~e acquired. That{building has no frontyard setback and it was actually a development put ~ogether ~ith that Video Update by the previous o~ner of our company. T'her~'s no signage allowed on our building because Video Update has the sign".ge for that so called parcel. So ~hat the City Code does allow is it alleys the banner en the building so the banner is then on the building as sis'n~ge conforms with the City requirements and also doesn't have the sign&ge en the building which Video Update had totally so it's a very tight. corner and tight spot. It ~,$as a buiding that ~as constructed prior te our , I ,c'lann~ng C,ommission Meeting Fobru~r¥ 6~ i991 - Pa~e 1~ . {nvol~mmsmt with the company here locally~ So that's how that a~ived and .~. m s.~re that might a. ns~er it fo~ you. Faxma~es' The last question I have is~ I~m cuxioum to know why the ma.iorlty of landscaping is to the east next to, as I undexs~and it ~ould~ be an additional paxking lot ~ox the Hanus building. Is that corre~L? ~4ha~ was Lhe reasoning behind that? That's sor~ of in the back>~xd. Zt. seems Lo be you~ intent to keep this building as open as p,:}ssi~le. Is that for a retail reason or are you having a problem being vie~ from the highmay? ~lob ~'~il<ulak: In looking at the TH 5, at this location, TH 5 is basically the .~n]..y recognition that we will get. bio're obviously not going to get by s~ebody driving doHn a cul-de-sac on Feth. TH 101 is going to be relo,~a, ted in the future and moved about and so forth so our primary concern obviously is te make this venture profitable long term~ [4e don't ever to g~t in a situation where all efa sudden we have one car coning in and ~e~v~ get it closed. So in order to do that we have to maximize every that ~4e get~ that the site gives us. It comes te your concern about ever~t, hing. Yow kne~ you take minute little traffic flo~g~ doesn't make any difference. Nell, one little thing might not make a difference but you add themlall together and it makes a big difference to a company as to ~hether the?' ~make a profit or not. Yes, your concern is legit. Did we locate thor('? Yes. [4e located it there to meet the requirements of the City and also?to, m~,~te~ ot~r requirements to have the development occur and that's visibility to TH 5 so that we're obviously seen~ [4e have screened basically the headlights and actually have located the garage doors parallel ~ith TH 5. Or actually they're perpendicular. Our building~s para~le]~ and tried to conform ~ith your requirements again but still trying t.o m~intain our optimum positioning because you know~ just that little bit make~ a big difference. You knol~ you bring up car ~ashes and people stac ling next 'to us also. Please keep in mind that if you take a 100~ the ~eople, the quick lube industry onl~ has about 20~ ef those people usin~ them. The other 80~ still do it theirsel{. The 20~ that we get are pot the people that necessarily wash their car. They're the people t. hati~euld take their car down the street somewhere else and drive it through and wash it. In other words the income bracket that we gear our vehi~ie studies te would be not the iower income but getting and moving up that~ income bracket. So I'm sorry to make it long but yes. That issue of landscaping and all the others go together. It's not just something that you ~an take eno little thing and say well, if we change this one little t. hir~ it ~on~t matter but then you get over here. [4ell~ we change this litters thing. Pretty seen you ~ake it unprofitable for a company te exist t. her~ and function and that's where we're coming from. Se I'm heping~ !~m trying to explain not only the picture ~ present but why we do it. You l<no~ ~e~re not new to the business. [4e have 800 facilities around the ceu~ry and do it all over. That's just what we've found we have to do to mak~ it Nork. 1o make it profitable. Far~akes: To the north of the property, as you said, there's net a let risk,al access there at that cul-de-sac. I guess I would like to see a ~t.~l~ bit more landscaping than ~hat you have there if that s possible.: I'~. ~eem~ awfully minimal. That s P].,a. nn~ng Commission Hooting February 8, lO-}eL - Page ? 1 t.'~hren.~' Only one comment on the preliminary plat. That's paragraph that one t la.t Brian brought up and I agree with him that that is vague, t don't under~t, and t. he second sentence where it says if necessary, other parcels ~.,~,i.].l be...Z don't know what you're referring to there... Site plan review~ A cou}le questions. Heuld you be willing~ Bob right.? To work Hith the sta'Ff~ in providing more landscaping? I think it's pretty minimal. ! nc, t~ced that you put in your plan t think that you were going to be . provi~i, ng small hushes in certain areas and I noticed on your pictures that the b~shes provided shade for about 10 rocks mostly. Tiny little bushes~ 8ob M~kulak: Nell obviousl~ they're all brand new. None of the facilities I ~h're~: Well I knoll but it could be years for them to 8et you knos this big ,~en.. Would you be willing to work ~ith staff to maybe increase the amourS, of landscaping? 8ob ~ikulak: I guess give, present where and then I can ansHer that. Do you fncrease it, yes I can increase it but to ~hat extent and to where f~;h're~s: kJell maybe Jo ~nn, do you have suggestions? O].se~' Yeah. We could, you know in speaking with them we've requested some {additional evergreen trees and other trees rather than more emphasis on t~e shrubbery and along the berm in the front and even some along the building. I talked to them about that on the north side of the buildins wher~ it's totally bare. P~hre~s: I don't think it would have any impact on profitability to provide more~screening and some more landscaping around there. I'd like to see t. hat.{at least. I have a question. WNy aren't we requiring the type of four,that we required on the emission control building on this roof? 01se~: It was discussed. Krau~s: ~ couple of reasons. First of all, the emission control building was khe first one we brought through that Hay and quite honestly ~e were soft, of waiting to see what the City Council did. City Council ultimately recommended~ in accordance with your wishes and there is a mansard roof on that~building now. In fact they submitted building plans for it and we thinx it looks a lot better. But this site is a little bit different in ~,~t~ unlike the other one where we had a McDonald s roof line that was man~rd. He had the residential area behind it. In this case He have the h~n,..is building which is flat roofed. We have the ~moco station which is fla{~ roofed. Ne have the car wash ~hich is flat roofed. I guess ~e were a little bit hesitant to forcefully push the issue on this one because tbs nei~borhood wasn't as clear to us and I know we've spoken to you and to som~of the City Council people about this that we really need to sit down and ~lay out the city and design goals for it so that ~e can clarify ordi~nances and get our act together a little more. I should also say that ~,~e ~ought this up a number Of times in meetings and were basically told ~..,,a~ it s a deal killer on this one. That this is their building and th~s is ~hat you have. Plann'~ng Commission Meeting Febru&ry 6, 1991 - Page 1_9 Ahren~: I guess I'm just a little confused because I think we presented to the eoission control people that this was the new view, appearance of Chanh~ssen. We're all going to look like this and this is what we were goingi to be requiring and all of a sudden, you know this is a pretty visib].e building when you're driving into Chanhassen. I think maybe it would;~'t look so bad, I don't know. Kraus~: Well, in all honesty, we would still prefer something done to the roof ~ine. This building also though has that barrel feature that breaks up t ,h~ side of the building a little bit. It's not, I mean the emission control building was just, I mean it was a box. There was no detailing on it whatsoever. Arguably a red barrel is part of a sign package and not sign Metail. I don't know, this was a tough one for us and I don't know if we m ,~de the right choice or not but quite honestly I was curious to see your ~eaction to it. We need more direction in this area. We would like to be; more consistent. ~4e'd like to consistently raise the standards of our qxpectations but right now we're doing it on something of a subjective, catc~ as catch can basis and we're a little uncomfortable with that. I dor~ 't know if that clarifies it at all. It sounds like we're waffling a · l ittse bit but there you have it. ! ,. Ahrefs: I guess I don't understand the standards there and 1%hink, I would like to see a mansard roof simply because the other buildings around ther~ are flat roofed and I'd hate to see, it looks like just a one stop auto.~service corner as you drive into Chanhassen with the flat roofs and auto~.parts store and the gas station and the car wash and the quick oil chan~e. I'd like to see something that looks a little different. I think, I don't know. I think it's going to look, not that I have anything against your~building but I don't like the appearance as the main entrance into Chan~assen. Emmi~gs: Are you done? Ahre~s: I could go on. Emml~ngs: No, go ahead. ~hr~ns: No. Emm~ngs: I've got a little discomfort with saying that our subdivision ord~:nance doesn't alloN the creation of remnant pieces and then creating two:!of them. I've heard the explanation and so forth but it still bothers me ~nd are you comfortable that there's no chance we're going to wind up wit~ two pieces here? Two little outlots that can't be hooked up to som~_thi ng else? Kra~ss: Yeah, and that's why we proposed this. We would have preferred to have the whole thing platted and that was our initial position on this thr6ughout. Mr. 3ohnson convinced us or maintained that that's just not a possibility because of the multiple ownerships so what we came up with is kin~J of the same thing through another means. The instant these outlots are~ created, our City Attorney's going to control the process. Nothing com~s out the door, I mean those outlots will cease to exist as soon as the~'re created because at the same instance they'll be merged to the other lot.~. Planning Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 20 Emmin~s: Okay. I'll rely on you for that. This dumping ground for wrecked vehicles? This is obviously off the point but sure caught my eye. It says the area located between ?gth Street and the railway tracks has becom~ a dumping ground for wrecked vehicles, and what's being done about that?? Kraus~: Well frankly it's a little bit frustrating. You know we're not sure bxactly who's doing it at this point. We've been working with Brad to renno_~ate the whole property and we think we've got the ultimate solution whichl is our buying the property. We'll berm it. We'll landscape it in this ~ackage of improvements and as city right-of-way nobody will be parking on it but in the past, the Hanus operation has parked junked vehic/es, working vehicles, employees vehicles and everything else and right>~ now there seems to be vehicles that are being brought by wrecker onto the ~foperty there. One of the things that 3o Ann and I would like to add as a ~condition here too under the plat is we're somewhat concerned with the futur'e use of the outlot adjacent to the car wash. The Hanus facility too for ~at matter. We want to make sure that there's a rider written into the ~lat that says that under no circumstances will these outlots be used or t~se parcels be used for the storage of, the exterior storage of wreck;ed or junked vehicles. We're just concerned that wherever there seems to b~ a nook and cranny over there, somebody seems to find something to dump ?n it and we'd like to head that off if possible. Now Mr. 3ohnson is working with us and does, upon acquisition of the Hanus building, does plan to r~.'nnovate that parking area in front of the building and hopefully we can ~et him to work behind the building and we'll own some of that so a lot of w~eels are turning that if it all falls into place, we'll have most of the ~roblem licked. Emmi~gs: Okay, if we put a condition on this subdivision regarding those outlets and if they go out of existence, are we doing anything? Krau~s: I'm not certain. I'd like to ask our City ~,ttorney to clarify that'~if possible, or you can clarify that for us. Do the conditions, you know!my? question to Roger is , and we just thought of this one . Do the conditions attached to that outlot carry forward when it's merged with the othe~ parcels? I don't know if they do. I hope so but I don't know. Olse.~: We can work out some wording I'm sure because that ties into number 3 to~. We have to come up with the description for those. Emmi~gs: So the condition would say that, something like the City Attorney will,be directed to come up with some language that will prevent these outlets from being used for storage of vehicles or anything else after they mer~ with the other properties. Krau~s: Unless subject to a plan approved by the City, yeah. = Bra~ Johnson: Maybe I can clarify that car parking 'thing. Previously, pr i~ to the Amoco store change, remember where those cars were parked? Emml~gs ' Where? Bra~ 3ohnson' Behind the gas station. When Amoco changed that, there was no ~lace to park them, whoever parks them there. So now when there's a Planning Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 21 wreckl on TH 5 or TH 101, the only place in the city that anybody can park a car t~mporarily now, it turns out, not that they're suppose to but that's where[they end up, is over on that parking area. We would like to lands>ape and eliminate that. If you go by there at night on your way back,~by the dark of night somebody was parking cars there. Most of those accid~nts~ happen in the evening and it is an enforcement problem. It's been ~oing on there now as long as I've lived at someplace. What we have is we! have a ~recker service in town with no easy place to park stuff on a temporary basis. We would propose...property way in the back there could be sc~neplace to do that because there's no place in town to do it. Emmi .n~js: Thanks. As far as the preliminary plat is concerned, I don't have ranything else. I agree with Brian's changes to number 1 and adding the ~fth condition here. On the site plan review, item number 3. I agree that {the landscaping needs to be more and everything is so low except of cour~ where they want to hide the vehicles that are waiting. They put the one ~ine tree's in a position so it screens the cars that are waiting from TH 5 {and I understand the rationale for that, and I don't have any problem with lit but I don't know why there couldn't be something taller on this prope-rty. Certainly on that grassy area just north of the building there could be a couple of maple trees or something over there that would prob~'bly make the site look a lot better. And I agree with 3elf's remarks that ~imaybe something more along the northern edge there. That's wide open too.~ ~ But at a minimum I would think you'd want to add those along with the additional landscaping you already talked about. I think we should add a cond.~tion~ to the site plan review that there will be no outside storage. No o%tdoor storage. I wondered, I'd like to ask the applicants, what is the faximum number of employees on site at any one time? Bob ~ikulak: Generally what happens is you have a manager who will open the ~tore so you will have a manager per se or assistant manager on the presence of the property. Anywhere from 1 to 3 technicians with him work?ng. On Saturday you'll probably have the 3. On Mondays you'll probably have the store manager himself opening the facility so again sloe, er times obviously we'd have less people there. Busy times we'd have more! Emmi~gs: So at most you've got 4. vehicles parking on the site that belong to e_~ployees? ~ikulak: At very ultimate busiest times. Generally you would only Bob have~l person in the lower level working and then the 1 or the 2 up above. Emmi~gs: You've got a total of 5 parking places here. Are there reasons that~people who are using the facility need to park and come in for anything? You just don't need it? Bob ~ikulak: If they want to come and talk to us about something~ obvipusly I guess they can come and talk to us. We basically don't have thati need. It's a drive up service and that's really what they're there for ~s to get in and out so they would be driving up rather than parking. Most!i~ people are encouraged not to get out of their vehicles. Just to drive thrU. J, Plann.Jng Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 22 Emmin,cs' Okay. As far as somebody using it for the first time. How does a per.bon know what your services cost? Or even what services you offer? I mean ~s there any information outside the building that tells them that? Bob M~kulak' It would be from the standpoint of you pulling up by the buildi,'ng and someone will come out from the facility and greet you. They will ~ask you if it's your first time to Rapid Oil as part of their initial quest~ions. If that is a yes, then they will go through the other info~mation. Actual procedure. Lyndy could probably run down it because he d°~e-- s it all the time. There is no signage outside. When you get inside the L~Jilding, there is a menu board if you wish to call it that and it is explained to them once they are pulled up to the building by someone in per scan. Emmi~'gs' Okay. There's no pricing information outside? Okay. I don't have ]anything else. Conrad: ~ have a quick question. ~mmit gs: Okay. Conrad' Nhere did we move the dumpster? Bob ~ikulak: Back, which would be, can you see that? Conrid:_ Yeah. Bob ~ikulak: It was right here which would conflict with being on the setb.~ck... Conrad' Why is it separate from the building? That sort of bothers We d~n't have an ordinance. We ~ust have a setback ordinance for tra~'h? I don't like that. It should be adjacent to the building. Olseb: The brash enclosure, what you were saying was going to be 8 feet in height so that would still be... Bob ~ikulak: I'll tell you one thing...based upon experience. Again, nothing against having it close but if we were to take and locate this adjalcent to the building, it may work in office buildings or something but if ypu were the guy pulling up to get the trash, how would you get it out the~ in big semis? That's the problem. That's why attention...in that cas~they pull in here, back into the parking spaces and leave. If it were loca~ced on the building or something, he'd have a beck of a time not only disturb what's on site happening, the other vehicles, cars and so forth and the ~eople which makes it very difficult for him to get it and next thing we ~now we've got the corner of it down because the guy can't get to it. It i~s totally enclosed. It has a slide up or garage door on it. A...roof on ~t so it's pretty clean. ConCad: I'm sure it is. I don't like it though. I don't like the fact tha~ it's not adjacent. You know there aren't very many exceptions. Well, I tPink the standards are what I would have to apply and if we don't have a ny~ we don t have any. Planning Commission Neeting February 6, 1991 - Page 23 Olsen~ That's where we can add landscaping. i Farma~es: If you go with a clockwise flow of traffic, isn't the garbage p.icku'~ then going to be going against the grain of traffic? Bob H~kulak: The car that's coming out, that car that comes out comes out like .l say, approximately 1 every 15 minutes. So if that would be the case,~ an average of 15 minutes. So a car pulling out, if a truck pulls in at the same time, obviously they're going to be there. Small possibility. I can't say it doesn't exist but I can't say that it would be any better the q~her direction either because then you've got a garbage truck which is backifg up into traffic. You know', is there a perfect way to do it? I wish ~here were...but there really isn't a perfect way and every sight has a clc~ad on it. We just try to deal the best with those that we can. Trash unfoW<.unately is one of those necessary evils. Conr ~.: What's between the parking area and the building? Is that grass or i~ that concrete? What is that? Emmi4gs: It's grass· Conr4d: Is it grass? Emmi~gs: I'm assuming. Conrad: Is it green grass? Bob 4ikulak: Grass, yes. Emmi~gs: ~s far as the traffic pattern goes, I guess I agree that I don't kno~.~that the traffic, the volume of traffic doesn't seem enough to bother to r~verse it if it's something they really don't want. I think I'd be inclfned to leave it the way they want it. The other question that I had hereiis getting rid of their, water from their site. I don't quite understand ho~ we coordinate. There's no sewer now on 79th Street so as far ~s waste water from that site, until there is sewer, will those things be d~ne concurrently? Kraufs: That's the goal, yes. If we don't, what happens is it will just flow~off the site and down the street and go into Great Plains Blvd. where ultimately a catch basin. : Emmi~gs: Is that something we should be concerned about? i Krau.~s: Yes. That's why we're tying together this whole thing with the HRA .! Emm~gs: Well., it will be interesting to see if it happens. Batz~i: I'd like to make a motion that the Planning Commission recommend . approval of Subdivision Request ~91-1 for Gateway First Addition, $ foot vari~nce to the lot depth requirement, plat shown as January 15, 1991 with the ~ollowing conditions. In condition 1, the first sentence would be ame~ed to read, Outlots A and 8 shall be merged into the property titles of ~he adjoining parcels and that such outlots shall be combined with such Planning Commission Heeting February E,, 1991 - Page 24 adjoi ~ing parcels into single tax parcels concurrent with recording the finaliplat. Condition 3 would be deleted and it would read, applicants , shalli agree that all increment generated from Block 1, Lot 1, (and appur~ances) shall be used to offset the cost of public improvements prior to fii~a], plat. approval. Further, Lotus Realty shall agree prior to final plat .mpprova]. that ali. increment generated from Outlots A and B, the two lots ~ehind the Hanus building, the property on which the Hanus building is located (if purchased by Lotus Realty), and the Brown property to the west. (to tme extent controlled by Lotus Realty) shall be used to offset the cost of puSlic improvements to West 79th Street. And then a new condition Y which~ would read, appropriate language shall be recorded against Outlots A and B:~ to prohibit storage of automobiles and other refuse, except upon appr .ocr late city review and permit process. Earnings' Does anyone dare second that without Roger reading his new number 3 to ,,'find out what it means? 11 Batzli: ~Oell you guys should take a very close look at that to make sure .it sa~s what you want it to say. Krauss: [~e will be forwarding this to Roger next week and getting his advi~e before it goes to Council. We're very comfortable with the intent of the rewording. -. Emmi~'gs: Yeah, I think that's a lot more specific than what's here and I thinW it sounds better but, is there a second? Bat. z~i" Well I don't know if it does what everybody wants it to do. You guys ineed to look at that very closely as well as the applicants. Earnings: Is there a second? ,~hre~s: Second. Emmi~.gs: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion? Batz-i moved, ~hrens seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Subdivision Request ~91-1 for Sateway First Addition ~ith a 3 footivariance to the lot depth requirement, on the plat shown as January 15, ~991 with the following conditions: 1. )utlots ~ and B shall be merged into the property titles of the adjoining parcels and that such outlots shall be combined with such ~djoining parcels into single tax parcels concurrent with recording the ~inal plat. The applicant is responsible for providing the City ~ttorney with all documentation and agreements required to complete the ~ransaction. 2. ~ive foot drainage and utility easements shall be provided along the ~asterly lot line of Outlot ~ and the westerly lot line of Outlot B. Applicants shall agree that all increment generated from Block 1~ Lot ~'_, (and appurtenances) shall be used to offset the cost of public ~[mprovements prior to final plat approval. Further, Lotus Realty shall agree prior to final plat approval that all increment generated from Planning Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 25 ,O~tlots A and B, the two lots behind the Hanus building, the property o~ which the Hanus building is located (if purchased by Lotus Realty), a,~d the Brown property to the ~est (to the extent controlled by Lotus R~alty) shall be used to offset the cost of public improvements to West 7~th Street. 4. C~sh in lieu of parkland dedication shall be required at the time of b~ilding permit issuance. 5. ~e sale of the two lots behind the Hanus Building and of the parcel c=3ntaining 79th Street to the HRA shall be concluded prior to final K'lat approval. 6. ~he applicant shall enter into an agreement with the City HRCk which ~ill ensure the timely construction of improvements to 64est 79th ~treet 7. ~'ppropriate language shall be recorded against Outlots A and B to Urohibit storage of automobiles and other refuse, except upon ~ppropriate city revie~ and permit process. All 9oted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Conrad: I make a motion that the Planning Commission recommends approval of S~te Plan Review ~equest ~91-2 for the Valvoline Instant Oil Change faci~ ity as shown on the plan dated January 15, 1991 with the following con¢t~tions., and the conditions are as presented in the staff report except for Condition number 2. In condition number 2, what. I'd like to reword there. Instead of reverse the traffic circulation, I wot~ld like to have the ~.pplicant present to the City Council revisions to the plan guiding inte'{nal traffic including signage, curb cuts, center islands, stripes, se that iwe~ 're convinced that the internal traffic is handled. I don't believe the ~ite is designed well for what they're talking about and if we grant them{the circulation that they'd like, I need a better internal traffic circulation than what I see. In terms of condition 3, I would like to have staf~ significantly. I would like to have staff review with the applicant both~the, landscaping on the north and the south side. I think on the north side!we re extremely lacking in any kind of pleasant entry from what I can see ~nd then on the south side we're talking about TH 5 and I guess just[like to have staff revie~ that one more time and make sure that the City, of Chanhassen is comfortable with the landscaping. That is sort of our _~ntrance to the community. All other conditions I agree with and we add ~ondition number 10 that there be no outside storage. 8atz~ i: Second. Emmi'%gs: Any discussion? Ell~en: What do you guys want to do about that roof? Ahr~hs: Yeah. I was just going to bring that up. Nobody hopped on that bancl,~agon. Ell..~Dn: I liked the idea. ', Planking Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 26 i, Conra,~: We don't, have any architectural standards and it's just really, untili ~4e do, I'm veal uncomfortable .about jumping into designing things. Until, we review it with City Council. .Ahrer~: Yeah, but we already recommended that the emission control buil~n9 have it. Conr~: You did. I didn't. Farm~kes: I did but my reasoning behind that ~as it ~as adjacent to single : family residences and this is not. Ahre~s: .. ~a decision made based on any requirements~ Emmimgs: No, but at least it has a rationale and I guess that was my rationale for going along with that too. Here we look at an emission control station from TH 5, you're looking against a single family residence and ~hose people also are looking out at it and they were here complaining abou~- flat roofs and so forth. In this area, we don't have those same cond~'tions. It does seem different. Not a lot different but it does seem different. I think it's tough to impose it on this one. Plus~ I~m not sure ithat you can put a mansard roof on this building the way it's deal%ned. I don't think that the emission station had much of a stake in haviFg all of their units look the same. They said they did but I didn't 'buy ~t. At least they said they did to the City Council, I heard them say that'but I didn't buy it. This business I think is a little different. ,And ~aving their red barrel and everything up there, that kind of iden%;ification I think is different. ~lls~n: Well you can have the barrel and a mansard roof. ~mmi~gs: I'm not sure you could. Conrad: It'd be real tough. The point 3oan is we should really look at what,we're, we have to have standards. .! Ahre~,s: I think that we should then have standards. Conrmd: Like real pronto. ,Ahre']s: Yeah, right away . Ellsi n: You're talking about the entrance and everything, I'd' think you'd t4ant; the nicest looking buildings you could have. Ahre_]s: I do too. Far4kes' One of the situations of making a car area in a city though for car ~epair, car servicing is that habitually you're going to get bright colC~ s because that's the way that corporately they advertise~ That's why it's~ said they're seen from the highway that way and primarily you're going to b~ surrounded by other buildings of the same alike. They're not going to be~ architectural wonders. It's unfortunate that it is at the entrance of t~e city from that side. I Plana' ng Commission Meeting FebruAry 6, 199:L - Page 27 Erhar~: But. keep in mind those cities who create architectural standards you c.an get anybody to comply ~ith them including McDonald's and everybody. If ¥o~ travel around, you can see those cities who have got together and agree~ and put it down on paper and people ~ill follow it. We have no standards here and I don~t think you can do it piecemeal. It's mot fair because it won't be consistent. I a~ree b~ith whoever stated that we ought t..o ge~ together with the City. If they voted unanimous on that roof on the inspection station~ that tells me that the City~ somebody, the city leaders here 'bant an architectural standard and it's high time to do it so. I think[ that's the first step. Ahrenb: Well if we can't get it on this building, I think we should ~et the sJmandards together real quick so we don~t have to approve further developments. . Ernmi~s: Any more discussion? r~ . Conr~ moved, Batzl& seconded that the Planning Commission recommend appr~al of Site Plan Revie~ Request ~91-2 for Valvoline Instant Oil Change faci~ty as sho~n on the plan dated ~anuary 15, 1991 ~ith the follo~ng cond~gions: 1. ~location of the trash receptacle and enclosure to where it meets the ~qu~red setback. 2. ~he applicant sha~l present to the City Council revisions ~o the plan (uiding internal traffic including signage, curb cuts, center islands, ~tripes, etc.. ~ . 3. ~11 deciduous trees to meet a 2 ~/2 inch caliper and coniferous trees '~usL be~a minimum of 6 feet in height at time of planting. The ~inancial guaxantees fo~ landscaping ~mprovemeats shall be requi~ed at ~ime of building permit ~ssuance. The applicant shall meet ~ith staff ~or their approval regarding landscaping on the north and south side of ~he s~te. 4. '~he applicant shall be permitted one pylon sign not to exceed 64 square %eel in area and 20 feet in height, not more than 4 di~ectiona~ signs (ct to exceed 4 squaTe feet in area and 5 feet ia height, and one wall ign not to exceed ~5~ of the wall aTea. Any letteTing ox symbols on he backlit bax~el will be coasideTed wall signage. 5. ~]. roof top equipment shall be screened. Screening shall be provided y elevated parapets or by screens constructed with mat. e~ials ompatible ~ith the building. Ex~er~or wood slat fences axe not ~cceptable. 6. ~he applicant sha~l provide existing o¢~ site contours for a~ areas ~th~n ~00 feet of the property line including 79th S~xeet. The ~pplicant shall also coordinate the boundary site grades with 79th ~reet in order to establish a compatible grade match. ,?. ~he applicant shall coordinate and provide detailed information o¢ the &torn sewer connection to the proposed storm sewer along 79th Street. Refinement of the site d~ainage scheme will need to be performed, Planning Commission Meeting Febre~ry 6,, 1991 - Page 28 p~rtic, ularly near the driveway access to ensure that the flow is dlrected towards the private catch basin. Runoff calculations prepared bY a professional engineer and a contributing drainage area map is r~qu. ired. 8. k~ist, ing sewer elevations and service elevation connections are r~quired . 9. ~e applicant shall be required to install a city standard concrete ~a~pron at the driveway entrance. 10. There shall be no outside storage. ~11 u~o.~ ted in favor and the motion carried unanimousl¥~ , 8red Dohnson: If I could add one thing. I...standards architecturally. I also ~elieve that standards architecturally...public hearings with dove,pets there and other users because you can basically really impact finaM]cially those people that own property...have to have a lot of input as to w~at's possible and what's not possible. Mansard roofs aren't the only answer. There's the bank building over here that doesn't have a mansard r eof ~ c..mmi~gs' Well and you don't want everything with a mansard roof and how do you ~et some variability if you've got standards that say one thing? Those are ~robleras. Brad [Johnson: My concern is I believe that everything should look good but we'v~ got to be careful... If they come into town and they buy land in town'.and know there's a standard, they'll check all that. If you've got it, ~hey know it...so, but thanks a lot on your help. ZONIng ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTION 20-576(3) REGARDING CONTRACTOR'S YARDS AS AN INTERIM USE. Emmi~gs: I'm not. going to ask for a staff report on this because this is very '~ ~short and I'm sure everybody's read it. It's a public hearing. Is there anybody here from the public who wants to comment on this? 8atzli moved, Ellson seconded to close the public hearing. Ali voted in faro~-'' and the motion carried. The public hearing ~as closed. Ahre~s: I don ' t have any comments. Farm~kes' I have no comments on this as well. 8atz~i: I'm in favor of it. i ~llsfn: Nothing. Oenrfd: No. Er haft: Amen. Planning Commission Heeting Febrtt~ry 6, 1991 - Page 29 Emmin~s: I've got a question, I think it's a 9cod thing but I'm curious about, mobile homes. On the back side it says, under Section 20-576, Interim Use and it says mobile homes are okay interim use in the wondering if the same rationale that we're using here wouldn't apply to mobil% homes. If we're worried about contractor's yards within the new area ~ithin the MUSA, would we want mobile homes in there either? Kra~' I'm not certain what the derivation of that is but I know that we have ~t least one farm, operating farm in the city where there's a mobile home ~n the property for farm help and it may have stemmed back to be allowing those operations to continue. Conceiveably it allows the plac~ent of a new mobile home on an interim basis. I don't know exactly [.,.~herei that would lead us. Emmi~s: Well okay~ that's off the subject anyway but it seemed to me that I was? kind of surprised to see that down there. Does someone want to make a mot'.5on on this? Erha~t moved, Ellson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend that contr%Jctor's yards be deleted from Section 20-576(3) regulating interim uses ~i~ the A2 District. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanf~nously. i (~ri~n Eatzli left the meeting at this point and was not present to vote on any Fdrther items.) ZONIh~ ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTION 20-41, BY ADDING LANGUAGE STAT~G THAT AMENDMENTS SHALL NOT 8E ADOPTED THAT ARE INCONSISTENT WITH THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. Emmi~s: Again, I think this is very straight forward. I won't ask for a staf~ report. This also is a public hearing. Is there anybody here that want~ to comment on this? Conrad moved~ Ellson seconded to close the public hearing. Ail voted in favo~ and the motion carried. The public hearinQ was closed. Emmi~gs: Discussion anybody? Conr4d' Yeah, I don't understand. What are we trying to do? The Comprehensive Plan is a guideline that tells us where we're going so now what :_'.we're going to do is once we decided that we're not going that way, that.,~we're going to go back and put it in the plan that said that s the way we w~,.re going to go. l<rau~s: Well, sort of, yes. Conr.~d' So what's the point? Krau.~s: We have spent, you spent quite a bit more time than I have but a number of years in developing a new comprehensive plan. The intent of the compC.'ebensive plan, or the land use portion of the comprehensive plan is that,-it's a guide for future land use decisions. The theory is that you shou]'d, if you're going to make land use decisions that are contrary to the lan,.q~ .~ la , before _iu.~e p n you do that you ought to go back if] and examine the ! Plant'lng Commkssion Heeting Feb'r-~"ary 6,, 199~L - Page 30 I ]and ~.se plan and if iL Narrants changing, you should do Conr~' ~om okay~ so change the comp plan before we allow the zoning? ,.rau~: Uh huh. And ttnat that should be examined in the context Ellsop: It's like a check and balance. Kra,.x:'~$: A little bit. Ellsc'n: It's like you know that you're going against what you planned a fe~,.: pears ago and maybe rethink it I suppose. :~rau. es',. It doesn't say you can't do it. It's just that you have te re~-e;'.'~amine the motivations en what the plan said and if it does warrant chan~.ins~ ge ahead. ~mmi/ss' Yew. know what struck me is a 8god reason to do this is that in ther~ we've got our goals and policies and it lets us, when we're looking at a]'specil=ic plan, }-each back to those and say, sometimes maybe this isn't consistent with our goals and ~ive us something to, a touch stone te go back 'to en sene of these things that sometimes don t feel quite right but He d4n't have a specific standard that addresses it. We can ge back to the mere j'seneral principles. Conr~d' Yeah, that's the benefit. You go back and look at. a broader pictVre rather than just an isolated example. Ihat's why I would feel. comfdrtable with it. Yet on the other hand, there's nothing magic with the boundaries en the comprehensive plan. You know they're best .guess right · now !eekins 10--'.20 years out. lhinSs are going to change so, and my guess is t~at the things that changes, are things that we just haven't examined and ~heir adjacencies. They're right at that line and why didn't we follow the ~urvature over here versus following it there se what we're going to do is~ ~.o the negative is aging back and doing a lot ef busy work, paperwerk~ screwing around with the comp plan to absolutely accomplish nothing. KraN~s: ~Vell I guess I would disagree~ I mean I~ve worked under that kind ef c~ntext for many years and basically what you do is if somebody opposes a re,_chins that's inconsistent with the Comprehensive Plan at the same time you~Cie considering that rezoning, you consider revising the Co6prehensive plan~ It's not another step but it does make you step back and examine ~4hat!the motivations were. Why the Comprehensive Plan was developed the way ~_t was and justify changing it. ~or example, I knew in a community wher~ I've worked where there was an issue that the City wanted very strongly set. a goal for itself to preserve non-single family residential site~,. That they wanted to promote a mix of housing and at eno point during the economic cycle there was a lot of desire to change all ef it te single family and we were asked to change the zoning from multi-family, whic"l this property had, down to single family. ~4ell we went back in and we e~amined the issues in the comprehensive plan and we said, you know yew. set (his goal in the comprehensive plan, you can do this if you want to but you';i'e not going to achieve the goal of mixed housing if you do that. And the ~ity in that case decided that they would keep the comprehensive plan and .~et go with the rezoning. No[Sedy's saying that you can't change the compSehensive plan as warranted and the Land Planning Act provides Plan _~'ng Commission Meeting Febr~ry 6, 1991 - Page 31 mechanism for doing that. We've done it here already. Conrad." So what's the process of changing the comprehensive plan Paul? .lust !really outline it briefly. ..tau s' lhere~s an application that b~e file concurrently ~ith the other req~'sts ~ahere ~,,e ~ould ask the applicant to make a case for mhy the City should. Rnd then ~hat ~e ~,~ould do ae staff is the {emprehensive plan. Why it's there and why this is or is not a better ideal f, ~lls~n' One other benefit I thought ~gas you could have neH people on CounCil_ and new people on the Planning Commission and it helps thorn go back~ I<raL~¢s' 'Yeah, ~e Ann just pointed out something tee. When you adopt a cempfehens~ve p~an, ~f ~e get the Hetre Counci~ to buy ~nto it, you're not allo~ed to then rezone somethin8 completely different than Hhat ~as in the cemp~ehenisve plan. You just can't decide that this single family subdivision should be 800 acres of residential. That is under la~ a cempuehensive plan amendment that the Metro Counci.[ has authority to revieH. Conrad' Se a zoning that overrides the comprehensive plan has to go te Hot KrauSs' No. ~n existing zoning~ and ~e'll have a {e~ cases like this. ~xi~ng zoning that's contrary to the comprehensive p~an~ the ~a~ says qL~i~ clearly that the zoning takes precedent. But ~hen somebody is asking you ~o change zoning to a manner that's inconsistent ~th the Comprehensive P~aF{ you.~ve got to change the plan i Smm~gs: ~t k~nd of has an effect of keeping your comprehensive plan up to dat.~ ~ith ~hat you're doing as ~ell instead o{ starting over the ~ay ~e did4 ~t ~east to sene extent. Sll~on: Hake you {ee~ any better? i Cen~ad' Ne~ ~ just don't ~ant us doing something that there's a very def~nit, e pro side to doing this. I just ~ant to make sure He're not doing som~_hing that ~rh~rt: You say there's no la~ that says you can't re~one something to something~ that's d~fferent than-~n your Comp Kra{ss: Hell it's been a ~hile since I~ve read the Hetrepolitan Land P~a~n~ng ~ct but you cannot make significant changes ~1 the p~an un,ess the~'re approved by the Metro Council. That's the mechanism~ the administrative mechanism He operate under. So if He ignored, totally ignored cur comprehenisve plan. Went through a massive rezoning that's a significant change ~n our comprehensive pAan and didn't give the Hetre Council and other communities a chance to interaot~ He ~gould be breaching ourlrepensJ, bi~ities ~ln the ~a~. No~I ~hat happens then, ~ don't know because I~ve never tried that but it just doesn't seem like it's good pol~ ~cy even though it s also against the ~a~. elan~ins~ Comrl~ission Hooting February 6, 1991 - Page 32 Conrad' $o you're telling me Paul that every time ~e change a zoning~ rish~ no~J most of it's agricultural.. $o if ~Je don't zone it the way our , comp~ehenisve plan has indicated to Fqet Council~ we have te submit an amenc~ment to the Hot Council? Over what barrier or boundary or what guideline? Krau~s: bJell they have minor and major plan amendments and they have definitions for each and ~ don't recall exactly v.~hat they are. There's an acre~ge break and a let of these things the Metro Council doesn't care and they?tell you right away. They give you a letter back saying fine and dandy. Go do it. Minor amendme¥1ts. If you have an area that's zoned er t. ha.t~s guided r~ p.~idential and you decide that a corner should accommodate a 7~-11i, you'd he obligated to tell the Metro Council about that as a minor planj, amendment but they're net going te comment en it. They send you back a le"~ter saying we reviewed it. It has ne regional significance and as far as w~re concerned, you can ge do it. Conrad: Se you're basically telling us to do something that's required by law &nyway? Krau~s: Yeah, it is but I think it also gives credibility to the plan. thin{ that we're in a better position. The plan has more credibility in the ~yes ef people, you know a developer comes into town looking at the . .. zon.~g ordinance and no where does the zoning ordinance recognize the fact that{~ge have a comprehensive plan. And it really needs to. I mean chan~ed some ef the de'[initions of districts so that the district is tied into~what the comprehensive plan definitions are. For example, when we wret~ the R-16 district last year~ it says that this district is to be util'zed only in areas that are guided for high density residential use in the ~3emprehensive plan .... linkage there and tying it together the way we're proposing, I don't think is inconsistent, with the way bJe've handled thin~s in the past and I think it gives mere credibility. Emmi.~gs: P~ny other discussion? Let's see. This is a public hearing. ~]_ls~n: We closed it Emmi~ngs' Okay, if there's net any more disoussion~ is there a motion? Ells.bn: Yeah, I'll move the Planning to.remission approve amendments to SecE~ien 20-Z~l pertaining to consistency with the Comprehensive Plan. [[n~.mi~ngs' Is there a second? Erh~. t: Second~ ~n~,:,~ £~gs' Any discussion? Cenr~ad' Yeah let me lust bring up eno other point. Earnings' 8oy you're a troublemaker. Cen~ad' I lust want to make sure we're really on on this one. It takes awa~ the City's flexibility and puts it in Hot Council's. Plan~¢[.n9 Commission Meeting ~ebru~ary 6~ 1991 -, Page 33 ! l<rau~,: No, That ~as done im 1971~ ~rha~' No~,~ let's gust take a second. Up at the intersection of TH 7 and TH 4 -~j If I remember that right~ that ~as always zoned residential. ~i'nmi~s' No. ~rha~t' Someone came ~n. ~llsqn'~ It was IOP. Wasn't it office? cmmifgs It wasn't al~ays. It k~ent from, no I think b~hen I came on here ].t ~.qas~ you ~,Jere here, it ~as office. ~lls~n' It was office om the corner Erha~[t.: Okay~ alright and then we changed. We ~ent from office. Srnmi~gs: The neighbors ~anted it residential~ E'xha~t: The neighbors~ that's right. Now is that a zoning change? Olse~' lhere ~,~a.s a rezoning. Erha~t: Did we make a comp plan change? Olse~' No, the underlying comp plan...was for commercial. Conrad: No, ~hat I'm saying is~ we have~ the City has the ability to some~hing the way it wants and let's say ~e~ let's just take an example a high density district and then somebody comes in and says I ~amt it to be a quality low density district and ~e as a city think that that's great. No~ ~ased on this~ no~ maybe ~e're forced t.o~ if we're forced to send this . to t~qe Met Council anymay, and I don't knou~ ~hat the parameters are. You know I can't believe we~ve sent everything over to Met Council for appr~k, als' but .again, based om those threshholds, we're taking away our abil ty to make small changes without their approval. Emmi~gs: Well, but let's ask. Is that example~ what if Met Council said no. [~e'¥'e not going to let you have low density in this area you guided for ,nigh density? Is that it? We have no, then our hands are tied? Kra~s: You know I had a question for the attorney and I haven't gotten the ~nswer back yet. What the appeals procedure is because I had the same que~iom of a bigger scale for you kno~ ~here ~e're all hoping and have the [expectation that the Metro Council's going to buy into our comprehensive plan and I think we all believe that it's a valid plan and it is ~ased on good concepts. Should the Metro Council reject it and ~e want to ~ight that because ~e think they're ~rong~ what forum do ~e have to do tha~ in, and I'm sure not. I ~ould assume that the Land Planning Act does pro'~ide it. I can tell you that in 15 years of doing these things~ the /Metro Council has never rejected a minor plan amendment that I~ve ever heard of. I mean we're talking about a group of people that. debated get~ing involved in the Mega Mall issue so they take that responsibility fairly seriously amd they don't normally get involved in local affairs bu.t ,Olan{i~n~ Comfit.[Psion Heetin~j ~ebr~ary 6, 19el - Page 34 the !and Planning ~ct, which has been in place {or I doT~'t know how manN' year%, b[~t over 1-5, has always required that. .~ mean the basic premise behi~.d this is that cities sheuld not act unilaterally without takins inte acco<hr the concerns o{ the resien and ad~oi~ins municipalities and schoel dist-~icts and other ~overnmental units~ And te the extent that they have al~ i~itereet in what yeti're doins~ they have the opportunity to oomment~ Eremites' 8ut kadd seems to be sayin~ that by doing this~ we're losin~ same flex~-h~lity but in fact we're required to do this whether~ Conn'.d: On certain level thinss we're required te deins what you're sayins a~d ~ ~ ~ m just saying for those that we're not required to den" knew what that threshhold is~ we're giving away the City's flexibility to react te minor changes in borders between a resident, iai dist-ict and a multi-~family district based en same lines that we just drew r igh~ now. · P'~hre~s: 8ut I thought the City didn't have any flexibility Ladd chan~in~ zening that was in conflict with the comprehensive C;onr~d' Oh~ we sure do. The Plan is just a guideline and I don~t know that~we haven't examined every foet of where that line goes. ~hrj~s: Is that true? I mean don~t we have to send that to the Het-~poli. tan~ Council fen approval? KrauSs: The plan is a guide but it's a guide that's accepted by the Hetro Ceuneil and we can't change it without their review. Rhre~s: So Paul's saying we don't have any flexibility no matter hew small ,or h~w large. E:onr~d: That's net what I heard him say. Ahr~s' If the zoning change is in conflict with the cempreheneive plan. Kra~: Yeah, I think that that's accurate. Hy recellectien of the ]o --n{~ase, t~Jhich Z don't have here and i~ you'd thi~and 9et you the Land Planning Act because I think that would reselve it, ~s that anytime you do anything that's contrary to your comprehensive plan'., yeur approved comprehensive plan, you have te run it through Hetro Coup-il .staff. Yeu have to give neifhborin9 communities that might have an inte¢est an opportunity to comment. And we've always operated that way. Emmings' If a piece of land ~.s zoned single family, and say it's guided by ' the CeNp Plan something else and a project cones in that s ~1 fasily Krak~ss' Yeu're in the right, at least legally. ~'N not sure what, I mean the ~and Planning Act was done 18 years ago and the case law and cerrect if ~'n] wrong Commissioner Ahrens but the case law on this was there was reo~nt cases about ~ or 5 years ago with some suits that said that the zon.~n9 takes preceder~ce. It s quite clear that the zonins dees. ~n fact we Co have twa instances that I'm aware of where the draft oemprehenisve ~]~a~} is inconsistent with underiyin~ zoning. One was one that was breught e~.~t ~at the Ceuncil ~hich is hakeview Hills Apartments. Lakeview Hills is PlanlTj~'ng Commission Hooting Febr~ry 6~ 1991 - Page 35 all Z~oned P,-12 right now and we're bisecting it or it's being bisected by TH 2 ._~_. The area north of the future highway is designated as parr and basso upon what the Council did~ it's low density residential ~ith an ,ever~y of park. Their attorney is saying ~ell you've do~n zoned my property and all this and the City ~ttorney was quite adamant about had ~n no ~ay doHn zoned anything. You still have that underlying zoning but {he City ~gas Hithin their rights to do Hhat we did. ~nd furthermore~ if w~ want te tackle it more directly~ we should come in at a city response er r{quest to rezone that portion of the property that's inconsistent the d~omprehensive Plan. We Hould have the ability te do that and it's something we may want to consider. 8ut right now it's zoned R-12 and if they,came in with an R-12 project~ %~e ~ould not have sufficient grounds te deny them I know I've tried this against HcDonald's ~here they took us te cour~ because ~e had a property that ~as guided for industrial use but it was ~oned commercially. He told them that we would not~ that it would be denied because it was inconsistent with the Comprehensive Plan. ~fter abeL~" 12 months of l itigation~ we lost. Conr.id' Well, I agree with the proposal. I ~ust want the City Council to ,before this gets to them~ or as it 8ets to theN~ if they're sivin~ up any ~inor flexibilities that Pau~ is sayin~ right non me're not ~ . .j~s ~gant~them te be sure that anything we're 8ivin9 uD~ I think He should know. 8ut ~therwise I think this is smart srnmi6~e' ~ny more discussion? Ellen moved, Erhart seconded that the Plannin~ Commission recommend a~r6val of amendments to Section 20-41~ pertaining to consistency with the Com~ebensive Plan. ~11 voted i~ favor and the motion carried unanimously. ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTION 20-406 REGARDING VARIANCES TO THE ~ETLAND ORDINANCE TO FOLLOW THE PROCEDURE AS STATED IN DIVISION 3, VARIANCES OF THE ZONING ORDINANCE. .! 30 ~nn Olsen presented the staff report on this item~ Stonings: Don't we sometimes look at these when it comes in as part of a sub(~ivision or a site plan? Ols~n: Ri~ght. Emm~ngs: And would we be dealing with them~ on those or would that also? Ols~n' [.4ell that's where it gets into the new wording of the variance~ Where yes_, under part ef the Site Plan, yes you .~. ,.Smm'_'n~s' We'd be looking at it? Well no~4 is that covered by these ame%dments or doesn't it need to be? Ols~n' I believe that's covered under Site Plan Review..~ Where the variances are now, the Planning Commission 3ust looks at the variance as psr~ ef the subdivision and the site plan. F'].an~!i. ng Commission Meeting Febr{ary 6, 1991 - Page 36 cmmi~gs Yeah it seems to me we re going to be looking at these 'rather ~han!th~o 8,card of Adjustments in those situations aren't we? '.- ~ ~ Krau~s~ Yes. If it's associated with a subdivision. Smmiigs: Or site plan? l(rauSs: Or a site plan it would be processed in due course with that subd:visien or site plan by you and the City Council. O.l. se~: $o we need to connect those where it says now~ where the Planning Commission has that control versus a typical variance, do we need~ Emmi%gs: No, yOU don't need to show it to me. As long as I ~ust wondered if, ~ince we're saying that here it says that a variance shall be reviewed by t,~e Board of Adjustments or Appeals and there's two cases where it's Krau~-m:..,.. 6Jo should check the wording so , there's over riding language in here~.2and t~e'll make sure that ttnis jives with that. Emmi~gs: Okay. Is there anything else you wanted t.o add Jo Ann to the star~ report on this? Okay. This is a public hearing. Is there anybody herei t. hat wants to comment on this? Erhaft moved, Ellson seconded to close the public hearing. ~11 voted in fav~ and the motion carried. The public heariBg ~as closed. c~,nmi gs ~-%ny discussion from anybody? C:onr~d' Who's on the Board of Adjustments? Olse:k' It's Carol Watson, ~illard and Tom ~orkman. # Krau~s' And I think the Mayor's still the alternate. Conrad: So~,we have one City Council member? How do we assort the 8oard of AdjL t..ments: Is there a formula for assortin~ it? Olseh' I don't know if that's ever been put into the By-laws but there's ,P..l~s been one of the Council members on there and then the rest are just ,.g,e no~ a 1 public. Ahr,~ s: What is the Board of Adjustments and Appeals? ,~mmi.'~gs: People that grant variances. Ahr4ns' That's all they do? ,,ra~s.. s: They re actually a quasi-judicial group. Ols~n' They can make the final decision. ,_~n,m" ~ngs: There should be a Planning Commission member . J F Planr~ng Commission Heeting reL.Cary 6 199i -- Page 37 ! C, lse{' They usually meet before C~ty Council and they look at setback ,~,'sxia'm.ces ox ~o[ s~ze vax~ances~ If ~t's umam~mous appxoval~ that's ~.~,~.~n t have to go in front of the Council. llrnmi~,gs: Oh~ ! didn't knoN that. K'FaLl~S: Yes. In {acc in a lot o{ oommunities~ and I think under State Ena. b~in~ kegisiatien~ ~e have appeal to the City Council and a lot e{ cities do but you don~t have Ce. In a let o~ communities~ your next line o~ a~peai is court. Olse~,' Also, a lot of communities don't have a Board of Adjustments. The City':Council does i.t. ~i!ls~n: I like this. Just a little housekeeping it kind of looks like ! here . i J. mmi~gs: Is there any other discussion on this? I guess the only thing T'd say i.s, I think perhaps it should say in this as part of that first sentence~ or right after that ~irst sentence~ semethin~ about, the {act that the )~anning Commission will revie~ variances in connection ~ith subd2visions or site plans. Just so it's complete~ but that's not a bi8 ,teal~ ~nyNay, if there's no discussion. Conrad: Uell I do have some. 0r just one thing that's sort of gnawing at me. ; I think the Board of Adjustments has some background in dealing ~i. th ., the %ariance if ~,e're talking the setbacks. I think they get, well knee, in8 who'~ there, they knou~ that. But ~hen you talk about variances to wetlands erdi~ance~ I don't kno~ that that's really, they've been educated in that. The ~tandards and why's and ~hat have you. I feel comfortable the City Ceu~il gets brought up into those things. They have the Statutes in our erdl~ance.'~ It's like introducing something Brand new to a group that reaAhy is used to~ we care if it's a 10 foot setback and the sideyard ~ t Qem set~ck is 9 and then so no~ ~e re introducing wetland ordinance to ~ss I ~m uncomfortable. Consistency it makes sense to de it but I I jus~ not real comfortable. ~mm~n~s' Where %4e~ve been real ri~id~ they may not be. ~hat kinds of tbi~ss ~ill they typically look at a variance for? Like a deck? S~N.~n~s' Give me some more examples~ 0is~n: ~..but if ~e 8et into ~ordin~...that the glannin8 Commission ~ou/d.~.loek at that as part of a site ~lan.~.lot smaller than 15~000 squ~re feet. or closer than a 75 foot setback. You would be the 8roup thawed be talkin~ about that. EmN~nss' ~o can you think of anything else other than a deck or ho~.~ about an 9ccessory building? Kra~ss: That too. Eut keep in mind there's no alteration to the Netland here. If there's any alteration~ that all comes for you through normai cha'%nels. The focus of the 8card of ~djustment was pretty narrow at this ~iann~'n.,8 Commission Beeting ~eJru~ry 6, ~t99~ - Pa~e 38 point~ I mean I think ~e've cleaned that O]..se%: They're very strict. TSey would really 5ave Smmi~s' I know some of the people om there would be but I think Ladd~s thim~,~m9 of maybe of a differemt 3 ~eo~le mext week. Whatever~ mext year. C~n~-,~.~' T~. t:'.hink we've got to go along with it Ol,s~-~r;: I think that technically ~e have always taken...anothe~ va~iance~ think it's just kind of...to ~hat ~e can usually do .... amending that whole ~.~etl~nd ordinance. ~mrnim~s' Do you have a motion? , Ahxe~s: ~ move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the Zoning Ordinance Amendment by ~eplacing section 20-406 k~ith the follo~ing lang~age, as written here except fo~ the first sentence which shall be ~'~n~e.d as follows' Variances from this section, not requi~ed to be reviewed by the Planning Commission, shall be ~eviewed by the Board of · ~f . . . Adju~ment. s and Appeals ~_mmi gs: Suwe. Is there a second? Conr~d: Second. Ummi~gs:. Any discussion? Ahre~s moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission ~ecommend approval of Zoning Ordinance ~mendment bM replacing Section 20-406 ~ith the following language: 'A variance from this section, not required to be reviewed by the ~lanning Commission, shall be reviewed bM the Board of Adjustments and )ppeals. The Board shall be empowered to decide appeals and grant ~ariances only ~hen the decision o~ the Board is bM unanimous vote. · he simple majoxiLy vo~e or split vote by the Board shall sexve only as recommendation to the City Council, who shall then make the final etexmination on the appeal ox vaxiance xequest. The vaxiance pxocess hall follo~ the guidelines set in Section 20-29 and 20-56 of the City ode." ~oted ~n favor and the motion ca~ed unanimously. ZONIMG ORDINANCE aHENDMENT TO REVISE aRTICLE V, FLOOD PLAIN OVERLmY Jo ~n Olsen presented the staff xepoxt on this item. Chairman Emmings call~d'~ the public hearing to oxdex. Erha~t_ moved, Ellson seconded to close the public fav~ and the motion carried. The public heaxing ~as closed. _ Planning Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 39 Emmin,~s: Does anybody have any questions or comments on this? I guess I've ,~ot one thing. It says that in one section it says that the flood plain'designation on the official zoning map. Is there? I just wasn't sure.; Are there 'Floodplains on the zoning map? Olsen~ No, it's the...map. Do you know where that is? Emmin~s: It's on the bottom of pa~e 4. It says, Add Section 20-46. Flood'~lain. Olser¢: I'll check on that one because we're just adding words from what they'i-e requiring. Emmi~s: But I'm wondering if it shouldn't be on our zoning map. ., Olser: It doesn't show up. Kraums: Have you ever seen the FEMA maps? There's a series of panels and it's'~iabout 6 maps that cover Chanhassen and they give a flood elevation for a ma~or event and then a flood fringe area. I don't know that it s info~imation we can accurately protray on our plan. Emmi~gs: Okay, it's an overlay. That's why it's an overlay. Does that map ~how all of the land in Chanhassen which ~ould be subject to? Krau~s: Well no, it doesn't. It shows major tributaries and lakes and the rive'- that is subject to flooding but if you have a wetland in your back yardi that tops out, it's not going to be on that map. Olse~: It just shows the floodplain... Emmi~gs: Would the wetland in my back yard that fills up and causes probRems be something that falls under this floodplain ordinance? Kra .u~s: No. Which is why you want to tie this into the FEMA. We are going to get into that issue though. I mean the one that you're raising. Wit~ the Surface Water Utility Program we're going to do a comprehensive, one ~of the elements is a comprehensive storm water management plan. That is ~_'oing to be setting flood elevations for all these little potholes and wet,ands and sumps that we have around town. Then we are going to enforce our ~regs to make sure that the lowest elevation of any house is at least 2 foo~ above the anticipated flood. I kno~ that Councilman Mason is here and we'~e been talking about a property in his neighborhood that appears to hav~ a flooding problem that somebody wants to build a home on. It's not anywhere near a designated FEMA flood zone and we don't have information on what the flood elevation is on this because it's locally generated information. Emm~.ngs: What do we do when just a subdivision comes in that's got some low.~!spots? What do we do to make sure we're not going to be building hou.~es on lots that are later going to have flooding problems? Kra-~ss: Well that's, and Charles can explain some of that but basically we get~' an overall drainage plan and we figure to a 10 year storm I believe. Plann!'ng Commission Meeting Febru,~ry 6, 1991 - Page 40 Olsen' 100 year. Kraus~: 100 year event. FoLch~ 100 year event. : Krauss: And we project what the flood situation is going to be on that par ti.~ular property. Emmi ~n~s: One th.~ng it sa_~d that on the first page it says the major chang'~s of the amendment and then number 4 at the top says changes were made izequiring replacement manufactured homes to be properly elevated and anchored and then all the Nay through here it seems like-manufactured homes aye p~rohibited. 01se~: Right. That's one of 'the general items of the proposed amendments that ~l.,they were giving to us... Emmi~gs: Oh, okay. Z see. Anybody got anything else? Zf there's no more disc~.ssion, is there a motion? / Erha~t: I'll move that the Planning Commission recommend adopting the fotltwing amendments to the Flood Plain Overlay District as shown in AttaChment ~1. Emmi~gs: Alright, is there a second? Ahrelhs: Second. Emmi~gs: Any discussion? r~ ErhaPt moved, Ahrens seconded that the Planning Commission recommend to ado~ the follo~£ng amendments to the Flood Plain Overlay District as sho~n in ~tachment ~. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Emmi.~gs: Total unanimity. It's really kind of sickening. Okay, I'm voting against the next thing no matter what it is. ZONING__ ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND S, ECTION 20-29(D) CHANGING THE FILING OF AN .~PPEAL TO THE 80ARD OF ADJUSTMENT S DECISION FROM 10 DAYS TO 4 DAYS. Emm~ngs: This has recently been before us. I don't think we need a staff report on this. This isn't a public hearing is it? Kraclss: No, you've already held that. Emm~ngs: Alright. I knew that. So let's see, does anybody have anything to ~ay about this? Con~ad: Is there a way ~e can make, how do you get the word out during the pro~ess that there's a 4 day, that you only have 4 days versus 10 to appeal? or just simply a 4 day. No, I'm not trying to communicate to the Cit~ that we've changed things but during the night of an appeal~ or night of ~here something came in and somebody wants to appeal, is it part of, Plant-'lng Commission Heeting FebrUary 6, ~991 - Page 41 well 'Z know the answer to this but it's almost like it should be said. If ther(' are any appeals, you have to make it then within 4 days. Krauss: Really you're right. It should be in the opening remakrs of the Chairman and we should put it on the meeting notices that are sent out. We can hake those. Conrad: I think that would be smart to do. Emmi~gs: I'd go a step further than that. I think that when there are matt%rs that are subject, wait a minute. Oh, this is just appeals to the decision of Board of Adjustments. Krac(~s: Yes. .! Emm~mgs: Oh okay, I'm sorry. That's fine. Ahre.ns: How do you notify them now of the 10 days appeal period? Kraqss: Well actually what we've started doing is one of the conditions of approval so that the applicant knows, is the last line is now this approval sha~l become valid unless appealed within 10 working days. Also, we've got betlter control over this now because this is one of those items that the Cit¢ Attorney is, variances are filed against a property, or at least they should be. And this is one of the issues that we don't release it until the~ owner 's given us whatever title information we need and the information is ~orwarded to the City Attorney and he files it. So we just won't release it until that period is over. Emm~ngs: I thought it was kind of interesting this change to any aggrieved per:~on. It's just interesting language because here the City Attorney thinks the reason to get that out of there and make it more restrictive is th ,a~ it would prevent community gadflies from appealing a decision i'n which they have no personal interest. I'm sure the establishment thinks of Ralph Nafer as a gadfly and I think of him as a guy who's protecting my butt from ge6ting blown up in a Pinto you know. I don't think of him as a gadfly so~_I don't know. But anyway, I think that 4 days is not enough time to al:ow a person to do anything. It really bothers me to go do~n from i0 da.~4s to 4 days. Another thought I had is, if somebody wants to appeal it there could be a fee. If it's really a problem that people in the, that there are people in the community who just appeal things just to cause, ju4t to gum up the works, there chould be a fee. That's goin~ to separate the gadflies from the folks who are really interested it seems to me. Kr~uss: Well, but do you really want to make the process more, I don't kn~w what the right word is? Em~. ings: No I don't. I don't but that would be one way to address it if iQ, I doubt if it's a problem. K~auss: Well no. It really has not been. I mean people who are going to afpeal a decision, every time that I've had, that they either give it to y~u there and tell you that they're going to appeal it. Which is fine. T~at's all the notice we need because it's of record. Or the next morning yfu get a letter saying I'm appealing this. Planr~ing Commission Meeting Febr~Zary 6, 1991 - Page 42 Emmir~gs: Four days just bothers me. I'm very uncomfortable with it but anyw~,~, I know I'm alone on that. Is there any other discussion on that? Is tH,ere a motion? Ethane" I move the Plannlng Commission recommend approval of the amendment to Zoning Ordinance Section 20-29 dealing with appeals from decisions of the Board of Adjustments be approved. ~mmi~gs: Is there a second? Ellsmn: I'll second it. · Emmi~gs' Okay, is there any other discussion? Erha'~t moved, Ellson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the amendment to the Zoning Ordinance, Section 20-29 dealing with/appeals from decisions of the Board of Adjustments. All voted in lave~ except Steve Emminos who opposed. The motion with a vote of 5 to 1. Emmi~gs: And why are you opposed? Nell, I'll tell you. I just think it's too short. It just doesn't afford people due process as far as I'm concerned. They ought to have 10 days as a minimum to react to somethin~ that~chan~es property and it may be right next door to somebody and they ou~h~ to have more time to react. DIS~JSSION OF RURAL AREA ISSUES: A. ?PDATE ON POTENTIAL GOLF COURSE IN SOUTHERN CHANHASSEN - JOAN AHRENS. Public Present: ~ame Address EriW Roth 225 West 15th Street ~412, Minneapolis 55403 Per~y Dean 1074 - 13th Avenue S.E., Minneapolis 55414 Ahr~ns: A long time ago I volunteered to oo before the Park and Rec Commission to talk to them about this. In fact it was a month ago maybe. I don~t know, and I gave them a little outline which I made copies for you all?so you can see what I did there. Basically~ after I ~ot into the ~hole golW course issue I got very interested in it. I talked to people in other cit~ies who had municipal golf courses and they ~ere all makin~ a lot of money off of them and they thought they were the greatest thing ever to be developed in their city. I presented this. My request to the Park and Rec Com6ission was that they amend their section of the Comprehensive Plan to jus" include a study area for a golf course. To tell you the truth~ I don~t know what happened at that meeting. They decided they didn't want to or ~hey didn't need to amend their section of the comprehensive plan and I really don't know why. They decided that it sounded like it was an interesting idea and that somebody should look into it. I don't know who or ~4hat kind of timeframe but they really ~anted to know if it was ~oing to be =inancially feasible before they'd even look at study areas. So cal2ed Paul after the meeting and asked him what he thought of what had happened at the meeting and he said he would talk to Todd Hoffman and get Plann%n9 Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 43 ; back ~o me on that as far as his willingness to proceed with the comprehensive plan change... I don't know what happened. Did you talk to him a)out it? Krau~: Z did. Z think there's a relunctance for the new ideas, especially new ideas that may cost money, to people to buy into and it's an under,~tandable relunctance. It's still an unformed idea. I honestly am not s~re whether it should be proceeded with or not. It's my understanding that ~here were 3 Council people there. i, Ahrer, s: Yes. Krau~s: Who did show some interest in the idea but nobody can buy into anything as unformed as this is at this point. Ahre~: I don't think we were asking for anybody to buy into the idea. We were '_.'asking them simply to think about it and to think about where it might go i~ it was, if the idea ever came into being. Where it might go in ChanMassen. Krauss: I think at this point it may warrant bumping the idea to the City Counqlil. Either we've been talking about setting a goals session with the City.iCouncil or just a recommendation from you that the City Council consider possibly appointing a group to investigate this further and report back" There's just not enough information for anybody to act on it at this poin~ but at this point, I think that it's warranted to see if there's enou~_h serious interest in the idea even from the City Council that they'd like.~this followed up further. You know, nobody has to buy into anything in t®rms of commitments to spend money or anything else but do they ~ant you ~o proceed with this and then I think ideally a task force that would be d~.signed to approach this might have a couple of members from the Park Boar~, a couple members from the Planning Commission. I mean there's a land_..~use decision as to where this might go and what it accomplishes from a comprehensive planning standpoint and there's the direct recreational issue . of w~ere should it be? What should it include? How should it be designed? I se~se that both of the commissions need to be involved in that kind of a reco6mendation. Ahre6s: Their main objective, they were most concerned about. First of all ~.hey said well we already have a golf course in Chanhassen so they were very~enthusiastic about preserving open space but they said we already have a go~f course. ~e have Bluff Creek and that's open space and I explained that!you know, tomorrow if somebody came in with a good enough offer to the ownet of Bluff Creek, that open space would be gone and we'd lose the golf course and we'd lost the open space. They're also concerned about spending mone~ right now but this realistically is a minimum 5 year to 10 year plan and ~ost of the communities I talked to said, if you don't get the land- at the ~tage that Chanhassen is in now, you'll never .get it because it either gets!too expensive or you don't have any left. So if it's something that the :~ity may be interested in, it's not something that can just I think be put 'iOn the back burner forever. Emmi.~gs: It struck me as a good idea when it first came up but when I loo~d at what you've put together here, it seems to me it's even a better idea:i. The idea of being able to use the club house for community events. Plannking Commission Meeting FebrUary 6, 1991 - Page 44 ; Maybe, even combining it with a community center idea. Ellsc~n: Community center down the road. ~hre~s: Yeah, a lot of them did that. Emmi~s: This has a lot of potential there for. ¢ Ells6n: This is a wonderful proactive kind of thing that I was referring to b.c~fore. Let's not just wait for people to develop and see if we like it. Like you said, we're talking long range, t4e're not saying this week. Ahrers: There's so many different financing options. I mean it's not like the ditizens are going to have to come up with money out of their pocket even ire pay for something like this. It really is an interesting idea I thin~, that deserves exploration. Erha~t: A quick question Joan. You're saying profitable. That doesn't inclL"de making payments on the purchase of the land? Ahrejs: Well, for instance in Brooklyn Park~ the land was donated to the City by a developer as part of a very expensive housing development that went !around the perimeter of the golf course. Erha~t: 188 acres? . Ahre~s: Yeah. Ells~n: Dwan was an individual too. Erha~t: I guess when you use the term profitable I'm assuming that doesn't include the cost of land cost, yeah. Ahre~s: Well supposedly the payback on golf courses is so high from day one "hat cities can pay back whatever it took to purchase the land and develop the golf course right away. Ells~n: I mean I think if the City's losing out in payments, they'd say that~golf course was a bad idea and they're not saying that. Erha~t' It sounds a little hard to believe but if it's in fact the case, then~II absolutely think we ought to go ahead and form a committee to look intoi it because I think, I never really thought that that opportunity would have!existed but if it does, then we ought to move on it. ~hre~s: I think it's a real interesting idea and I think that looking arou~d at the municipal courses that are so successful. I mean look at Srae?~ar. They're even building another 18 hole golf course over there beca~hse it's a big money maker for that city. Although all the cities said.!~ if they had to do it ali. over again, like Edinborough said they'd buil~ the clubhouse a third of the size of the one they built because it's just~ too big for them. They ended up owning that. It was originally under private ownership and now the City owns it... And they all said that they, d get a big name designer because it really brings a lot of people in. Planning Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 45 i ? : Edinb~rough is already booked through, and they have been, for several month;~ through the U.S. Open. Erhar¢' These are all publically owned? Ahre~: These are all municipal courses. This is just a brief little sketchy thing, You know a lot of them use the golf courses in the winter time Yet cross country skiing and sledding. Ellsom: A whole community kind of thing. I like it. Erhar~.~: What happened to the one, Edenvale. Edenvale? Ahre~: They tried to sell their course to the City of Eden Prairie but they :.:~anted like 7 million dollars for it and Edenvale is just not worth it.. ~It's not in good enough shape. It was too expensive. fflls~n' Thanks for doing this research. I think it's very interesting. Ahre~s' I know Tom Workman is here to answer any questions... :! Emmi~gs: I think it's a terrific idea. [ Ahrefs: He was talking about perhaps approaching the owners of Bluff Creek to s~e if they wanted to sell their course to the City which is an option tOO. ~ , Emmi~.gs: It doesn't meet the idea of having it designed by a, unless you wanted to do it over. Ahre~s: No, but if we wanted to do something. Ells~n: Enhance it a little bit more. Emmi~gs: And make sure it stays as a golf course because that's right on the ~luff. Ahrefs: Right. Emmi~gs: Anything else? Erha'_t.'t: My response to that particular idea was that I guess in coming up with~this idea was that my sense to preserve open-space, that this would be some:~0here centrally located in the city where we would' preserve open space not ~)nly for the golfers but for surrounding neighborhoods and that's why the :~luff Creek golf course doesn't quite fit with that vision. I hope it stay~ and I'd like to see it improved but I'm thinking about a second course someplace. Emmi.~gs: You've got a reasonably large piece of land. El. ls~n: You want 7 million for it. Erha~t: I seriously think that we have some major areas in our new comp plan~ that are very large single family homes. I think there s an PLanrCing Commission Heeling FebrL~ry 6, 1991 - Page 46 opportunity to break that up mith some open space here. Or maybe as a buff~ from industrial to Timberwood as Ladd suggested here. Something. The prob m's going to be finding 150 or 200 acres available beyond the financial although the financial looks, your findings are better than I woulc' have guessed. Ahrer~s: I think there are ways... [rha_~: I would go along with Paul's recommendation that we try to form a committee involving Planning Commission. Emmi~gs: So you want to run that idea by the City Council? Krauss: I think so and possibly if Tom or some of the other Council people are ~eally that interested. Frankly, I'll be honest, this is not something I kndw anything about. I don't golf and it's not my area of expertise. Ne could find out the information for you but if Tom is also interested or somebody is interested from the Council on serving on this study group, thin~~ gives it more credibility too and you might want to consider that. So m~ybe a request to the Council to consider establishing a task force to look~into the idea. EmmiCgs' Do they have Joan's notes and things? KrauSs: No, not yet. Unless Tom, unless it was distributed. Emmi~igs: Nell that could go Nith the packet that goes Nith the request. ~ayb6, I don't know. Do you think 3gan should be there? Krau~s: It might be a good idea. Ahre~s: Everybody I talked to from the other cities too said they would be more~than willing to come and talk to anybody in Chanhassen and make presentations. Brooklyn Park even agreed to give us their feasibility stud~ which they spent several thousand dollars on just to see what kind o'F issu&s they experienced. Ells~n: Really? Ahre~s: Yeah. Ells~n: That's fabulous. Emm~'~gs: Okay. Anything else on golf courses? ~PD~TE ON BF DISTRICI - DISCUSSION ~ITH U.S. FISH ~ND WILDLIFE SERVICE. B. Krau~s: We last left this issue last summer or spring, or whenever it when~ the comp plan was overriding but clearly we had some marching order= in terms of looking at the BF district and pursuing some ideas ~ith it. The Comp plan that was recently approved does talk about that area and does talk~about a future work agenda for it. One of the things the land use plan;does is the land use plan shows all the land located south of 169/212 as f~ture park. Some of that land is obviously an auto junk yard and some othe~ things right now. I ~as finally able to touch base with Tom Larson i Plant;lng Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 47 ;I who r~ns the Minnesota Wildlife Refuge. In fact Commissioner Erhart is going to have }aim as a speaker at Rotary next week? Er ha .~'r~: Yeah. Krauss: He's really an interesting guy. Very knowledgeable and probably woulc, be willing to come talk to the Planning Commission some time or send someb, od¥ over here. The Wildlife Refuge is really coming into it's own. They,ve been getting better funding lately. They've just completed their head4uarters building which is a very attractive building over by the airp~rt. They are looking at development of trails. They're finishing up t. hei~ acquisition and they have some long term funding goals for their acquisition. My question to Tom was, is that part of Chanhassen south of the ~ighway included in your plans for future acquisition? And if not, how do w~' get it in your plans? The answer to the first question is that it's not '~ncluded. When they originally defined the park back in the early 80's~ they kind of drew a line around existing land uses figuring that it's just ~too much trouble and expense to incorporate it. He shared similar concerns with me in terms of, you know is the junk yard a polluter? It's kind 'of a visual polluter at any rate, and long term would like to see thos~ areas cleaned up. He is making a request through channels that ultimately goes to Congress, for future park definition so that as money becomes available, that they could use it to acquire parcels. He indicated that!he~ ~as willing to draw the map so that all the land up to the highway was ~ncluded in potentially acquirable areas. He said that his priorities for ~pending though are based on environmental concerns. That he's got a lot ~f more sensitive areas where he wants to devote his resources first but ~ said, this is a long term goal for us. I mean if this doesn't happen in 511years, we're comfortable with that as long as it happens eventually. He d d say he was willing to put that in his request. I said~ would it help~at all if we had a letter of support from the Planning Commission and City,{Council with that and he said it couldn't hurt. So I told him that I woul~ bring that back to you and see if you wanted to make that letter of support. It is consistent~ the comprehensive plan is a statement of your intent at this point and it does show those areas included. A couple inteiesting things though. I found that while the wildlife refuge goes all the ~ay down to someplace near LeSeur, parts of it are not managed by the Fish, and Wildlife Service. Parts of it are managed by the DNR and Tom gave me t'~e name of the DNR contact person because the break point is the Shak~pee bridge. So there's area in Chanhassen that would potentially be included in the park but we have to work with DNR on that. ~nd I contacted a fellow over at the DNR who's name escapes me at the moment but he's send~ing me some maps on that area and he also indicated that he would be willing, 3chh Parker is his name. He also indicated a willingness to look at, '~f they haven't already included it, looking at modifying the land so that~ it would be included up to the highway. There's also another feature tha~! the DNR's real interested in protecting. There's a rather rare fen. It'sl an upland~ wetland over a limestone base or something like that, and I kr~bw the only other one that they're a~are of in the Twin Cities is over in ~gan. It was threatened by the 81ue Lake expansion when they were dewakering lately and they did protect it. But it happens to be near the ~ssumption Seminary. You have the ~ssumption Seminary and then you have the ~reek and this fen is on the north side of the creek and it's a very rar~ formation and they want to make sure that that's protected and pos~'bly we can develop a mechanism by way of a trail can go over back Planing Commission Meeting Febru~ary 6, 1991 - Page 48 i there, or something long term. Apparently both agencies have different polidies as to development of the park. I saw their trail plan and their trai~ plan does not include any segments in Chanhassen, Emmi~gs: Who is now? Krau~s: This is Fish and Wildlife. Here's where their policies differ. DNR, ]it's against DNR policy to develop trails in a wildlife refuge which militates against people enjoying it but I guess it preserves the wildlife habitat value a little more. Fish and Wildlife is not opposed to that and has i;n fact designed in trails but the closest traiihead is in Shakopee at the ~ase of the bridge. Tom indicated that they would be willing to cons%der trails on our side of the river, especially if this land's ultimately incorporated. They didn't want to route somebody around a junk yard,~ The long and the short of it is, I'm pretty hopeful as a first step that~they showed a lot of interest in the fact that we were interested in wor kfng with them. We are apparently one of the only communities that have come ,'to them to discuss that and there's a lot of mutual interest. If you were..;comfortable in giving us some sign of support that I can take back to : them,: or take to the Council to take back to them, I would encourage you to do t~.at. Again, it is consistent with the draft plan that you've adopted. Another matter, we've been talking about bluff line preservation. Several of y~u have talked to me about the fact that Eden Prairie has a bluff line ordil, ance and I haven't had a whole lot of opportunity to do a lot of inde~th research as to what I think a good bluff line protection ordinance is b~t I did xerox Eden Prairie's for you. Just so you can review that. I tend~to think we can do a better job. One that's more specific to the bluf~ line. Eden Prairie's is all inclusive. Wherever you've got slopes that!!exceed a certain amount, this ordinance kicks in. Which may be okay. And ~.hat's kind of the traditional approach but again, I just threw that out '~.here as information. This is something we know is on your agef~da for thin_~s for us to do. We're trying to get things done. I can't always promise that we'll get it done as quickly as you'd like but we are still working on this one. Emmi~gs: Okay, and then this said update on the 8F district but primarily the {hings you've done involve the land south of the highway and then the blur~ line. Krauss: Right. But that seems to be in the terminology, semantics that we've been using to describe all kinds of issues. Emmi~gs: Right, I guess so. Does anybody want to talk about this? Erha~t: Yeah, I'd certainly encourage this to try to encourage them to inco]~porate everything up to the highway long term. Makes sense to me. Emm~gs: If they can acquire all of that and if we can get something reachable on the bluff, that means that whole area is. Ellen: Nice looking. Emmi~gs: Sounds good to me. So yeah, I guess we'd like it. Sounds like eye,body agrees again. PLanffing Commission Heeting FebrUary 6, 1991 - Page 49 [ Cent _.~: Are there controls over the junk yard from a pollution standpoint? Kraus~s: Well one would hope so. Cent<d: I can't believe there is anything going on down there that, that's just ~got to be a significant pollution factor for that area. .Just a signfficant. I can't believe. Krau~s' Keep in mind that this is a non-conformity that's existed for a numb<r of years and predated the State's regulations of junk yards. · Emmi~;gs: Does that mean thew can pollute willy hilly? i Krau~s: Well I don't think so but. EmmiCgs: I don't either. Ethan. t: What do you think they're polluting? Oil running out of the? Emmi~os: Got to be. Conrad: Oh yeah. Emmit~'gs: Crank cases. Transmissions. Olse~: ...the Corps of Engineers has boon involved with them and the Fish and ~ildlife Service as far as they're filling this wetlands back there. I've~never been on the site. There's mild dogs. I've driven in there and you ~ust kind of... I m sure they re expanding beyond what they ever were to. ~It's constantly expanding. Erha':t: It is expanding? They're not moving the fence? Olse~: They're filling and they're going back. Emmi~gs: }-tow can they' do that? Krau~s: Well they can't and if we can catch that, we can stop that but therQ was an incident that Tom Larson was relating to me where when they did ~ survey of the area they found out that the auto salvage yard had bull~ 30 feet onto Fish and Wildlife property. ~4hat they did is rather than,~force them to move the line at that point, they said well give us 30 feet~back on the other side and they had a property swap. Ahrems: Well if you know they're moving it, why do you have to wait until you ~atch them? Kraums: Well we're not certain. I mean we need to have evidence. You knowLcatch people hauling in. It's a real difficult area to access. We're talk.~ng about something that. Ahre--~s: How would you ever catch them? Emmi~gs: Well but now they've got a survey it sounds like and that would be a)~ sure. :..; · Plan~ing Commission Meeting FebrUary 6, 1991 - Page 50 Erha~t' But isn't the thing fenced? Olse~: In the back? I've never been in the back. Erha~t: I've been in there. I thought sure it was all fenced. r Conrad: Basically the pollution would be under somebody else's juri~diction though. 01seC: The EPA. Conrad: Yeah. Could we inquire? Could you do that 3o Ann and just find out ~hat they think of that facility and what they're doing to it? · Ahre~s: ...for not doing their job. Emmiqgs: Here's a chance to set the record straight. Conrad: It's just got to be a major source of pollution to that valley. Emmi¢gs: Alright, anything else on this right now? Kraufs: No. C. ~PDATE ON RURAL SINGLE FAMILY DENSITY ISSUES, PAUL KRAUSS AND TIM ERHA~T. Kraufs" I'll kick this off and then Tim can get into this as well. You probibly recall a month or two ago we brought to you the fact that we were required under the Lake Ann agreement to have minimum 2 i/2 acre lots in the ~ural area and the Metro Council, we since became aware that as soon as they~made us apply that standard, they lowered their standard to 1 acre lots~keeping the density the same. The i per 10 acre density. The Metro Coun<il is now updating all their rural area policies and has proposed new standards that maintain that density so nobody's getting any more than 1 homeiper 10 acres but eliminate the minimum lot area requirements. BasiCally the minimum lot area is going to be established by whatever it take~ to put it, a safe and efficient on site sewer system. We asked if you ~anted us to go use this apparent new flexibility to see if we can get the <ontract changed and you asked us to do that. We took it to the City CounCil. They asked us to do it. There's a little bit of confusion in an issue': that needs to be clarified. The new rural standards that they're deve~opin~ don't have any minimum lot area. I'm guilty of some of the conftsion on this and some of the discussion we said that they don~t have any ~inimum lot area but I~ve spoken to Carl Loren at Metro Council who's shep rding this through and he originally told me~ I guess where it came from ~as that we were required to have 2 1/2 acre lots. Right after that they~lowered it to 1 acre so I was assuming that we'd have 1 acre as the mini~'um lot standard. Commissioner Erhart raised the concern that it was his ~ssumption that we would go~ ask them to eliminate the standard entirely which is, the City Attorney drafted us up some new language for Lake ~nn Interceptor Agreement and in fact that does that. Just writes out the ~inimum standards. We wanted some clarification of the intent here I ~u~s before I sent the official request to the Metro Council. Would you like ~s to ~o for having no minimum standard in the Lake Ann agreement? Planr.'ing Commission Meeting FebrLary 6, 1991 - Page 51 You'll have to establish a minimum standard I suppose in the zoning Ordirance but you can do that based on whatever discossion we'd like to put in. ~I suspect the Metro Council's going to say well this is an interesting concept. Te].l us exactly how you're going to handle it. Emmi¢gs: Tim, did you have something to add? Erha~t: Yeah. Not to be outdone by Joan, I have a 'handout too. Just tryifg to put my thoughts down on paper and just some ideas to share with you. ~ One was what we were talking about. I'll just quickly just thumb through these. This summarizes the first page, the current ordinance add what~I thought we were talking about in our discussion of this. And so I just came up with some concepts so that I could draw some pictures for us to get a feeling for what really affect dimensionally are we talking about in terms of land use. So I took what I thought was a reasonable proposal and '~et's say it's 1 acre with 125 foot minimum width and using 30 foot fron~ and yard setbacks and put that down as a proposal and then summarize what~I thought were the benefits of that which included preserve open spaces, efficient land use. We all talked about preventing the island affect that we've dealt with during the update. Allowing the use of wooded and ~,illy areas while preserving the ag. We've talked about efficiency befoC..e. Another idea I came up with was, which was a new idea we haven't discussed if we were to do this, I'd like to see us consider eliminating tufa', standard streets anymore so we don't have, we won't build any new rura~ roads with ditches and things. For two reasons. One is ultimately they.';won't fit and they'll have to be redone as curb and gutter. Secondly is t%at if you require an urban standard that's more expensive and it will encourage people to go to the smaller lots. So it's again an idea for discussion. The other one, again at this point I think the smaller lots{ the one thing that happened in Pioneer Hills was that they did not inst;tll_ gas at the time and now you've got all these houses with these prop,.ne tanks. These silver propane tanks sitting outside next to them. It 's~ really ugly. I don't know if we could actually put in an ordinance that~says you've got to install gas lines. That's not exactly a utility but ~t really ought to be done. So there's just a summary of some benefits. I did talk to, I did some calling around. I got ahold of this Stev~ Shermers who was also very willing to come in and talk to us. He runs{ the SP Testing and he does septic system design and so forth for developers. He came out of that Machmeier school at the University of Minnesota and got some ideas from him about what some of his ideas were and ihe had recently done, I think he said 6 or 7 what he, well let's see. I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit. The next page shows a typical 1 acre,~.~ lot, how you might put it together in terms of where a house and 2 sept-~c sites and according to him they would be required to be 40 feet by . 90 f~et in clay soil. So that gives you an example of how that might look if ~_, were to adopt a 1 acre site. It all fits on there I think fairly reasonable. The next page is just to give an overview of looking in terms of s'~ze of lots and what land consumption you re really doing. The first one :akes a section and let's say you have 3 developments. One in the upp¢- right hand corner is a 40 acre development so therefore you can have 3 loots plus the remainder of the 40 acres. The one on the left is 7 lots in a!~ 80 acre development and the lower right hand is a 160 acre dev~opment where you have eventually 15 lots and course. It gives you an ideai. That's essentially using up 10~ of the land as density in 1 per 10. If yfu go to the one area, the next page, that shows you 1 acre lots but Planning Commission Meeting Febru'_~ry 6, 1991 - Page 52 with i:he same density. See now your efficiency increases by more than doubles here so you're losing a little bit less than 5~ of the land. It just ~ives you a relative feel on what you're doing. Then we talked about the i~ea, which I thought you had referenced in your last handout at the last 'nearing. The idea of a community system. When I talked to this Steve Sher~rs he said that community system's a bad word because it implies a communally. Because some small towns or big commercial areas like a store, like ~ Fleet Farm in a rural area, have very large commercial septic syst ~e~s and they call those community systems but they have another thing what he terms cluster systems. They have done about 5 or 6 of those in the last ~ years where he has designed them and installed them generally around lake~. Emmimgs: This would be like over on Dogwood on Minnewashta. i Erhad-(: Yeah but to modern. · Emmir~gs: Well that's an old one but it's the same idea. : Erha~t: Same idea. I don't know how many houses are on that one. KrauS~S: About 8. Emmir~s: Yeah, a number like that. Erha4t: One of the overriding things that he said that so far they've only been !installed 2 years and so far, you know he thinks they're fine but he says.~you want to limit the number of houses to 5 per system because of, not that?ou, I mean you can technically put one together for 20 houses but it becomes, you have to have a users association. A very active one and somebody has to manage this thing and make sure it stays working and some~ody's not abusing it. He said one of the ~ays of getting around that is t~ keep the minimum to 5 houses per cluster septic system. So that seemed reasonable. I know that the more people you get involved, the more likely you're going to have trouble trying to get people to get along. Ther~ is also a point he indicated that if you get above like 15 or I6, then~all of a sudden you get into a, it becomes a big system and you've got to g¢'t the PCA involved and you definitely don't want to do that. So with that~i that was my notes on that again. He'd be more than ~illing to come over ,and talk to us on that kind of thing. The last drawing here shows whatiyou could do with the cluster system. This piece is kind of the scale assure=lng 20,000 square foot lots. And then I outlined just a little bit of summa:fy of what I gathered on the cluster system. The benefits are again more~concentration of lots. It has been particularly useful around areas of l~'kes and wetlands where individual septic systems sometimes are a prob;em that can be solved by these. Lastly, the ones we had discussed or Paul~had discussed in his handout was the idea that you could hook esseftially the sewer lines are put in at the time of construction so that you could simply unhook and then hook to a citywide sewer system at that timel That's not quite true in that you still have to put two septic tanks on e~ch house as you would in an individual septic system so at the time you ~ook onto sewer, you do have to essentially dig those and collapse them or d~ something. Fill them up or something and bypass them. Plan%zng Commission Meeting FebrGary 6, 1991 - Page 53 Emmi~gs: In the cluster system, on each lot there's septic tanks and what'~s communal is the drainfield? Erha~t: The drainfield, yeah. Krau~S: And you would have to make sure that the drainfield, which is the bott.'.~m of the system, is located in an appropriate spot where you would in the f, uture bring in utilities. Erha~t: As I showed on my last drawing, I showed you that. It doesn't imply~ that it's zero cost to hook up. There is some disadvantage. It does requ!Lre an active association of users. They've got to get along. Alth,~ugh they are living next to each other although sometimes that can be the ~.roblem. It does mandate city involvement and I think that's the issue you'~e got to grapple with here whether you want to get involved in these cluster systems or not. ,. Emmi¢~s: Why couldn't we do what we require homeowners to do and have a syst ,',~ whereby they have to have it inspected annually or whatever. Would that~ well the City still has to check and make sure they've done it I guess. Erha~t: And I think it requires more active than just that. I mean the City ~actually has to there actually has to be somebody responsible to chec~ this thing at ~east on an annual basis. Then the issue comes down to is t~e vacation syndrome. If somebody goes on vacation and something happC, ns, you get a faucet leak or the pipe breaks or something. All of a sudden this thing gets to be, someone's putting in more water than it was inte~ed. Who's going to be responsible for getting ahold of somebody to fix ~-.he plumbing? The other 4 people in the party? Is it the City? I don't; know. These are some issues. It's not that big a deal but they've got ~ be thought out. And the installation of water meters helps with that Because if there does seem to be a problem, you can check quickly to see ~here this water's all coming from. The last drawing kind of shows you a sa'..~ple, I put together a 10 acre site with 10, approximately 20,000- 25,0(~0 square foot lots. And according to Shermer's, again worse case, actually the worse case is the standard drainfield in terms of the amount of s~e it drains. Your primary drainfield and your alternate drainfield is ab~out a half acre for each 5 houses assuming a 4 bedroom house. You can actu~:lly have that if you go to a mound type system. Showing here'the wors~ case, you pick up essentially I acre of waste for every 5 lots. And aga2~, as Paul pointed out, where in the future a sewer system would prob ,~ly come by in a major streak here, you might pick up one of these fairlY*/ easy but the other ones, you may have to pipe in some 600 feet to · hit i*%. So it's not perfectly clear that it's just basically unhook a pipe and ~;ith a rubber tube hook to the new one. Essentially that was the infor~ation I gathered and I think, I guess my feeling was that, I thought what i~e had agreed on last time, we were going to go to Met Council and get as m~ch flexibility as we could and then come back and' take up all these issue4s. Decide what extent we want to. Emmimgs: So to keep the flexibility we'd need to be able to consider these clust~ering of septic systems and other things, you wouldn't want to see any kind ]of a minimum lot size? Plan~,ing Commission Meeting Febr%ary 6, 1991 - Page 54 Erha~t: If that's what you want, yeah. If you want that option in the future, we would want to go back and ask for no minimum lot size which . coincides with what I think they're getting to. Krau~s: Well yeah. We're prepared now to ask them. Again, I haven't sent the 'etter out yet but the letter basically says eliminate any reference in the Q-ake Ann Interceptor agreement which is the only thing that binds us. Right' now we have a minimum 2 1/2 acre standard in our ordinance and I can see them asking for more definition as to what we will adopt or wanting to have,some authority to review changes in the ordinance that we want to incor;porate. You're really working with two different things. You're workSng with the standard rural lot where you're going to have to establish a miF;imum area. And you know, 1 acre would seem to be appropriate for that~ In fact, Tim illustrated that quite well. When you get smaller than 1 acf'e you're going to have a very tough time locating the two drainfields 7 on YOUr own property. But then we'd want to develop cluster standards for the ¢ural area. And what those are at this point I don't know but we're · sure,willing to work on that. I guess at this point we just wanted to brin~ this back to you and so this issue was kind of laid out before you. I'll go ahead and I'll forward our request to the Metro Council and I'll keep 'you posted as to what they're asking for. Then at some point they're goinC to come back to us or we're going to have to develop a new ordinance to d~al with it and we'll keep you informed. Emmi¢'gs: Right now if somebody wanted to do something in the rural area, they,re going to be coming in at 2 1/2 acres minimum? ,. Kr auSs: Right. EmmiF. gs: Is the feeling we don't want to see that kind of development? mean that's what I'm hearing. So this is something we should get, we've got ko get cranking on so we don't have people coming in for those although ther~i's no activity in that area. Krau~s: There's not a lot, no. It's not a very active market right now. I gue~ss I would also say that it's not the City's position to say 2 1/2 acre '!lots are necessarily good or bad. I mean clearly we've had some problems dealing with the after affects that we've seen in the comprehensive plan. They tend to get in the way. They make things difficult for orderly expansion of the City in the future. If we lower the minimum lot area to 1 acre, somebody could still come in with 2 1/2 acre lots~ We set a minimum, not a maximum so it wouldn't necessarily preclude that ilsame situation from arising. It just gives people more opportunity to, n~Ore flexibility. Farma~kes: Given the economics of building out in the rural area, would the natur"al tendency be like in town to be, put as many homes as you can? I mean i~ould you expect a builder to be out there selling these homes wanting to pc..t 1 house per acre versus 2 1/27 Krau~s: Well, Commissioner Farmakes, the density cap would remain. The Metre Council's adamant on that. So if you have 40 acres, you're still only ~oing to be allowed to have 4 houses. It's just a matter of what size lot afre you going to put them on. And what we've found is that yes, you do have ~ome builders and some developers who will go for the minimum every Plan~ing Commission Meeting Febrc~ary 6, 1991 - Page 55 .r time! But when you're building to something other than rock bottom, entry leve~: housing, you're not designing for the minimum and we've got a lot of devel'opers. We have a 15,000 square foot minimum lot area but many, if not most~f the lots that are platted recently, are somewhat larger. And they can~e a lot larger depending on what the builder's going for. My guess is that ~if you're developing a rural subdivision, why live out there on a 15,000 square foot lot. It just doesn't make sense. Farm~-'--kes: That's what I've been seeing out there. I've been seeing what I wot:ld call upper bracket homes. Large homes and they don't seem to be positioned in any particular way for future subdivision. They seem to be posi~.ioned as estates. Placed in such a way that you wouldn't think that they,d be developed later but you never know. Krau~s: I think that's generally true. The only exception is in TimbC~rwood, some of the homes have been situated off to one side and I know that ~the developer sort of designed it so that at some point in the future you ~ould, if you don't mess it up with a house location, you could split the ~'ots down the middle 'and still have oversized lots but would have some potedtial. Emmifgs-"- Nice work. Anything else on this? Krau~s:. I don't think so. We'll go ahead and send that letter in. VERBAL UPDATE - TREE PROGRAM AND DNR PARTICIPATION. Olse¢: We just kind of added this at the last minute just to let you know that:ithe mapping of the trees, of the vegetation in the city is moving ahead... I just met with the DNR, about 4 of the DNR foresters last week and we'l? be bringing that, presenting that to the Planning Commission and City CounCil in the next couple months. Me're trying to get something ready for Arbor" Day to have it all mapped out. Have it designated what types of wood~ands they are and which are the ones we want to preserve and which not. :' Mhen you look at the aerials, what they have are aerial photographs and ~t's just amazing to see how much is not out there anymore. Me ye just got ~ardly anything left and to really just to show that we need to pres¢rve what's there now and so we'll have that in the next couple of montks. Emmif~gs: Okay, and this is the effort to develop an overlay, like the floo~ plain and everything else, showing where there are significant stands of t~ees? Olse~.." Exactly. Emmi~.qs". Now in the past we've always heard that there's one DNR forester fori~e 7 County metropolitan area and he just doesn't have time to work on thisi Now, what is enabling us to do this all of a sudden? Olseg: Mell they're using us as kind of a pilot project. Emmif. gs: Oh good. , · Plan~,ing Commission Meeting FebrUary 6, 1991 - Page 56 ,. Olsef.i' And their boss and the DNR is really excited' about looking at urban tree~ it's not to call it preservation. It's called more management and so they are putting. Ells~n: Resources in? Olse~: Resources in, exactly. Plus they're working with us on even adopting like an ordinance to work on. What we do want to preserve and how to m~-nage it. They're really, when I met with them last fall it Nas klnd of lfke they're just going to give us this mosaic of the aerial photographs and ft was like, okay. Great. That will look nice on the wall but what do we d4 with it? I don't know ~hat kind of trees they are and what are the good'ones and when we met last ~eek, they're just taking it. All the steps up u~ere we're really going to have a working document so we also are look~ng at hiring an lntern who u111 have to do the foot survey and to veri~.y ~hat they see on the aerials. There's ways to do that where psoba'bly ~4on't cost us much of anything. Emmiqgs: Sounds good. Krau~s: I think ~o Ann deserves some credit here because this is not something that the DNR's ever done for anybody before and ~e are being used as a~little bit o¢ a guinea pig but it's clearly in both the best interest of t~e DNR and the City to work out this issue. Hopefully it ~ill be a -. real 'useful project. Ne don't know the product that ~e'll get out o¢ thls but ~ou al~ays have the opportunity to review it but we're breaking some new ~round here. . Ellsfn: We're progressive. Emmi~gs: And it polnts up too you know when Valvoline comes in here and ~ant~, they want to put up some substantial something and there ought to be treee- there. I don't care ~hab~but by god they ought to put up a couple of big trees. Erha~t: You kno~ another thing that I wanted to point out on that thing too,. ou should make them guys draw those trees to scale on those drawings I'll ;~tell you, a welsh juniper ~ill never get 15 feet in diametes as shown on t~at~ plan. Ahre~s: ...on their picture, little teeny things. Olse¢: ...they're going to look at the urban, the downtown are and they'll be a~]le to tell where they need to revegetate... It's not necessarily just the ~reservation outside in the rural areas but they're also going to ~ork on. . Emmi~gs: Ho~ about in our subdivisions where we have to have i tree per . I at' . ' lotO~ Yh s ridiculous We ye talked abo~t that before b~t we've never done~anythin~ about ~hre~s: I think for ~rbor Day, the City of Chanhassen should ~et a ~bole b~nc~ of trees and have a tree sale. Kra~s: Yim is ~orkin~ on that~ Plan¢ing Commission Meeting Febr&ary 6, 1991 - Page 57 l Emmir~s: Tim does that. Erha~t: They've done that every year. Dick ~ing: I was going to ask, why the Valvoline? Why not the testing station? That was one of the questions I wanted to ask when we were revi _,~wing the testing station, b~hy aren't we, and I hear all this excit)ement about trees which I really support. Some cities every Arbor Day have ~ wholesale day and go to a nursery where they can pick up trees at cost;..but more important, I'd like to see Chanhassen start reforesting. And c~ne issue that I'm going to bring up at the Council meeting is that I watt that...substandard building, which I consider it to be, with a flat roof~ which we didn't...at least as those lots mature, I'd like to see some tree~ mature with it so that by the end of my tenure in Chanhassen, there's a le~lacy there. Not just a flat roof building. I'd rather have a forested lot ~hat it sits on but see I don't know the ordinances to address these issues very intelligently here. Other than that I think right here, plats coulc~ be stopped cold until they have adequate trees and Z want to tell you where I stand, I'll support that when it goes upstairs so to speak. Both the ~sting, I'm disappointed that the testing station didn't put in more tree¢. Z mean that's just another eyesore along TH 5. My concern is, I made !a stand on I'm worried about the east end of TH 5 looking like the west ~nd of TH 5. What I haven't decided yet is where east and west stops. So 3~st maybe this one we looked at tonight is still on the east side but if i~'s on the west side, you're stepping into my territory now and I don't want 'it going any further west. And I'm concerned about that. EmmiWgs: Now the trees on the testing site, there were quite a few were ther~ not? Both on the TH 5 side and on the back side? Krau~is: Yeah, there was. Emmid~s: Quite a few evergreens is what I remember. Conr .~d: Well berming and evergreens towards the neighbors side. Krau~,s: It's on the highway side as well. Emmi~gs: It's on the highway too I thought. Dick~bJing: ...comment from an HRA meeting a couple months ago. They're .? putting in these great big walls that say Chanhassen made out of fancy bric~. It's out by the Holiday station and then down in Market Blvd. and Z stood~ up and I said, well our big logo right behind your head Steve is a big faple leaf and I think the entry to the city ought to be reforested in mapl<s, or at least hardwoods. Their statement was, well we don't want to obsctre the sight lines to Holiday. Emmifgs: Why not? Dick iWing: Ask the people on the commission. Ahrer~s: If anything could obscure. I' Planfing Commission Meeting FebrCary 6, 1991 - Page 58 ? Dick'~Wing: Well a large hardwood...so they've got a few ion things and a few ~ine trees and I said but our logo is and why don't we reforest with hard, cods and why doesn't the city start staturating itself with hardwoods agair,? $o count on me for support if you choose to go that direction. Emmi~gs: The other thing is with hardwoods you know, as they age, as they get ~.ature, your sight lines really aren't impaired at all. You have all the benefits and none of the disadvantages. = Dick'Wing: I'll just finish up my statement. I just want to, I'm reinforcing this position. I drive into Chanhassen from the east and my firs~ sight coming into Chanhassen from the east is billowing white smoke comif~g across the highway. And I said this at the Council, I'm repeating this~ If you've read the Minutes, cut me off but they tell me that smoke is jq'st steam but it don't smell like steam to me. And then I go through thes( buildings and here 's · . .testing station, McDonald's, Taco stand, ceme~,t place. That's TH 5 from our border to downtown and what's going to stop i!that from moving right on west the same way. It happened with this Plan¢ing Commission and the one before you and the one before you and the City iCouncil before you and that's what they've allowed. What do we have to dqI to stop it to get control of some direction? EmmiCgs: Terrorism. That's all we have to resort to. Ells~n: No, I think we have to be proactive otherwise they'll come in and the e..rdinance will allow it to happen, P, hrer'~s: Well that's what Annette was talking about at the last meeting, and ~_ talked to 3o Ann about this too. At some point we have to be able to say, .iwe don't like this stuff. El ls~n: Can we go out and give what we do want? Can we go recruit it? -,,. Ahre~s: ...I'm sure that people don't like to hear, I don't think that tooke' nice on that corner, but it doesn't. It looks like junk and 10 years from~now it will look junkier. I don't know why we have to have a corner, the c, orner that we drive into, that everybody drives into Chanhassen, why that ihas to be devoted to auto services· I don't understand that. Emmi¢gs: Presumably we can, we've got our opportunity on the west side of town'that! we didn't have on the east side I think is what Dick is saying and ~.y doing a corridor study and looking at the study area out on TH 41 and ~H 5, we're going to be able to go a long way by performance standards and ~.ther techniques to make sure that doesn't happen on that end. Ahre~s: We're letting it happen right now. Emmi~gs: Well yeah. It's a tot harder, especially in a little spot like that~ You know it's zoned BH. It's a BH business. He can come in here and ~e can't turn him down because he's got an ugly store. Ahre~s: Is there any way that we can direct any kind. of development though? ...as soon as you bring that up, they say we can't change. Ethan, t: We can do architectural design as long. as we have the standard. Plane"in9 Commission Meeting Febrt~ary 67 1991 - Page 59 ~dike Mason: That's what we talked about at the Council meeting was getting some 'performance standards. Emmir, gs: We've been talking about it for years and it's easier to talk about~ . Mike LMason: Well I undeYstand that but I think. Erha~t: No, I think we've talked about it and we've decided against it in the ~ast. We have collectively made a decision, a couple times since I've been~on the Planning Commission, that we don't want to get into arch'_tectural standards. EllsSn: Maybe they're too stringent. Erha~t: I never understood why but that has been basically the consensus. Now ~hat appears to change. Farmlkes: You could get into goals. I guess when I was talking before, and ~aying that it would alleviate some of the complaints of the neighbors if t ~ey would soften up the impact of that roof. The issue, I guess if you had ~irectional goals that you're asking some of these architects to solve without getting into the how to's and saying this is what would help to get this~passed. I think that would allow them some flexibility into doing whatj!they need to do for their business. At the same time knowing what the gene-al thinking is I guess of the City as far as covering up standing traffic and landscaping and berming direction and if your location is close to a'-:residential, that you need to be cognizant of that. Without again beini~ specific and saying, paint this pink. Emmi-~gs: Make a mansard roof. Farm~kes: It would be impossible. It takes away all flexibility from any professional and the people that they're hiring. Ahre?s: But private developers do that in residential areas. They say we want~brick exterior. They don't say what kind. They don't say they want 2 stor~ or 1 store, whatever. They want a certain kind of look. They can dev~[op real general design standards where not everything has to look the sam~ but everything is of a certain quality. I don't know why they coul)~n't do something like, it's real hard to do. Conr-.~d: You're going to find it real difficult. Ahre~s: I'm sure it is hard to do but what's the alternative? Con~d: The alternative is to require certain embellishments. Whether tha~ be walkways for real people. Shrubbery to a specific standard that we fee~ comfortable about. I think it's real proactive. I have a real prob~lem developing design standards and I think because we, it's just hard to ~ictate. There are exceptions galore. Ells~on: Well how about 3elf's idea? Give the goals and then you're rev}~ewing everyone in light of the goals. Did you buffer the residential wel~ enough because we've told you Mr. Developer, that's an important part PLan{.in9 Commission Meeting Febr-~ary 6, 199i - Page 60 when~you re going up against a residential and you're commercial. Hope'*ully his designer has Looked at that and says, yeah. There's 15 more pinectrees here than our Last location. Ahre~s' What's the m~n~mum ~e hawe ~o comply ~th and they 5us& come the r ~n~mum. They don't care about our Lofty 2deas but they ~ust ~ant kno~4hat the minimum requirements are. Farm~kes: Although, I believe didn't you say they're making amendments to the Aoof at the inspection site? Kraums: Yeah, we got the plans today. It Looks a whole lot better. Ahrefs: That's because we required that far. Ells~n: But he's saying because that's a goal, we would be able to throw that ':in? i Farm4 kes: But is it required because we asked for it or legally would they have~',had to do that? Krau~s: It was a condition of approval. I~ you're asking if they could take~it to a court and get it overturned maybe in about a year or ~o I don'~ know. We have an ordinance Jeff that says that ~e have the right to do a~chitectural revie~ but it's vague as to ~hat ~e can do. At some point we g~ too far. Clearly you can't deny a project because it's ugly as a sole ~reason. Erha~t: Look it. I mean you kno~, there's been hundreds of towns out ther(~ that have put in place architectural zoning ordinances. If ~e ~ant to g(t serious about it, just go to Vail, Colorado. Find out ~hat they did.; There's a tremendous amount of resort to~ns that have put architectural code in there. ~ust 9o find out ~hat they did and pick the best~parts that ~e ~ant and put it in. Conrad: You don't have consensus from anybody in to~n ~hat that would be. Real~y. i Erha~t: It's a process that. Oh, it's not going to be simple. Conrad: What do they tell you in school Paul about architectural standards? Krau~s: They tell me to do ~hat the Planning Commission-tells me. . Conrad: Good line. Dick ~Wing: I'll answer that Ladd because my ~4ife's a senior in archBtecture and one of the projects they're doing right now is redesigning 494 ~hich they see as a dismal failure, as the communities are calling it a dismal failure. Paul's of the old school. I don't care ~hat he says, he gradt:ated before my ~ife did. The ne~ school says, you just don't strip TH 5~i You run, go off a block and then you have a little cluster but ~hat we'r~ used to in this community isn't ~hat the ne~ world's thinking. all ~hese clusters eventually...redeveloped and redesigned so ~hen she sees PlanrCing Commission Meeting Febrt~ry 6, 1991 - Page 61 the o'~mprehensive plan, she says well that's what the average does but here'~ what some cities have done. She's got all this ne~ information from the ~w school. The kids in architecture and urban planr~ing...have got some ;lever ideas that are really pretty productive and Tom Workman brought up th~ new car dealership in Eden Prairie. Well you don't know it's a car dealership. Why? Because performance standards said you aren't going to know ~hat's a car dealership. It's very restrictive so we can raise some goal~and I agree. Architectural design is...so we can have a certain flavo~, or quality of style like other cities do and we're lacking that. It's ~oing to happen on your ship. I don't care if you do it or not but if we fa~l, then it will have been iD your terms of office and mine. Conra~: I'll just throw out one word. If you think we've got problems on TH 5 i-ight now, wait until we start designing the stuff that goes to the west ;of the CBD because that's sort of an unstructured. It's going to stri~, commercial type of stuff. That's just what it's going to fill up with 3nd that area has always bothered me that we really never, it's going to be parking lot, store, parking lot, store and we've never had any vision for What that should look like. It's allways sort of been, well let's take care ~f the CB; first and then after that fills up, then all these franchise operations will go in to the west and sort of fill that up. guess~ I'm not terribly concerned about the business highway, to be very hone~A with you. I think we're missing a whole lot of stuff but we haven't had ~ vision. We haven't had, other than locating highway service in that area,~' which I think is not a bad vision. It keeps transcient traffic from going, through neighborhoods and I think there's some really good value to that.:~ And the benefit is that we are able to do better designing with other'! neighborhoods and keeping some of these franchise operations out of other~ areas. But again I think it takes a vision and so far we haven't seen ~%he vision. And we're always dealing with problems with TH 5. How it's 'divided. Who owns it and how we're going to reconfigure it and where the ~ilroad tracks are. I don't know.. I guess it would be nice if some~dy had a vision that we could follow but in the years I've been arourCd, nobody's had that. Ellso~,: Maybe your wife can do that for a project. Erhar:: Well aren't we saying, I thought I heard that there was a consemsus among Planning Commission members to start working on archi~ectural standards. Is that my sense? Ellso~: Well I don't know if it was just architectural. It had to do with the l~ndscaping and everything. Erhar¢: Well agreed. Let me respond to that. Number 14 on our work list, which4 we added at the last meeting, that we were going to develop land'aping standards so to me that's already on the work list. We're goin~ to add to that, and then I'll get back, is that we ought to, another proja~, t we ought to be doing is getting involved in Minnesota Highway Depa~.~ment and finding out what their landscaping plan is on when TH 5 is compl%ted through town here. ; Krau~s: That's something that we're very active with. Dick was mentioning it. ,Their project is very minimal. I mean they don't do much of anything but. ~ '1 :; Plan"~ing Commission Meeting FebrUary 6, 1991 - Page 62 Erha t' Maybe we want to add to it. Kraums: Nell we are and there's aD HRA sponsored program and I forget what the ~ollar amount is but it's significant where there have been special pavi.~g treatments for the traffic islands. Landscaping where we can land¢cape. Entrance monumentation at key intersections into downtown. The .~oal.'of it is so that when you're traveling on TH 5 through Chanhassen, you ~ill..'know that you're no longer in Eden Prairie but that you're in downtown Chaniassen. And you'll know that because all the visual clues are there. I ha~'en't seen the final plan. They've gone through a lot of different chan~es with it. Emmi{gs: Who's doing that plan? -, Krau.~s: It's Sarton-Aschman is working as a consultant for the HRA and the HR~ ~ill be paying for it and MnDot will actually be changing their contracts I believe so that their contractor will build everything to our spec~. But there's a lot MnDot won't let you do. Inside the right-of-way thei¢, primary goal is to move cars and they're not going to deviate from that~ Erhaft: But they did a nice job on 35 and 494 of landscaping along the side slopes I think. I think driving on some of those areas where they've real~y put some money into it, I think it looks really nice. Ells~n: And on the way towards St. Paul they've got... i Krau¢s: Yeah, MnDot can be made to do some pretty neat things these days. I memn look at where the new 35-E comes into St. Paul. Ells<n: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Krau~s: You've got the bridges that have the antique features and the ligh~ standards but somebody paid an awful lot of extra money for that too. Emmi~gs: Planted the ~hole median on top of that concrete. , Krau~s:. Nell see that's the result of not being able to build that highway for ~0 years due to neighborhood opposition. I think it's a wonderful design solution. I really en3oy it. Emmi~gs: ~lright. It's 10 after 11:00. Are there any additions or corr(~ctions to the Minutes? APPRf. V~L OF MINUTES: Chairman Emmings noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated 3anuary 2, 1991 as presented. CITY ICOUNCIL UPDATE: Emmi~s: I'm not going to ask Paul to go through it. Is there anything anyoWe wants to make any comments about any of the items in there or get clarification from Paul? I thought that the development fee schedule was a grea~ idea. That's something that really needed to be updated it looked ii ke Planting Commission Meeting February 6, 1991 - Page 63 Conrad: Z'm just curious about the Timberwood comment. What? Give me a synopsis of what? Kraufs: The Council was very cautious and supportive of maintaining consistency with the plan. Nobody wanted to change courses in midstream on Timberwood. To change what has been committed to. On the other hand, the CounCil wanted to leave the door open 1=or something else if it met a very high,~standard of development to be considered. Emmirgs" No>J you're talking about? KrauZs." The 137 acres in front of Timberwood. I Eremites: Zs that what you're talking about? Oh, okay. Z'm sorry. Krau~s: And the way we approached that is, the City Council is holding all the ~rds. If we leave the land use plan exactly the way it is but write into ,-the text of the plan conditions under which the City Council may cons~der changing it and what we did is we developed, you know we've alwa)~s talked for years, what if American Express or somebody else like that :'came and wanted to do a real Class A complex, campus. You know brick and ~lass buildings. A tremendous amount of open space. Prestige type of area :and we've always concluded that if somebody wanted to make a proposal for ~hat in front of Timberwood or wherever else, we'd probably be fools if we iL:st didn't give them the opportunity to at least make the case. So what '~e did is we wrote into the text what sort of development may be consL~dered as an alternative to low density residential. And we talked abou~ basically brick and glass. Not much in the way of tip up panels. We talked about mostly office. Not much in the way of warehousing and manuC-~cturing. We talked about a hard surface coverage, much more stringent than is normally the case so that there'd be more open space. We talk~ about the need to preserve the creeks and trees and the school site. We talked about the need to establish buffers and do the whole project as a PUD s~o we can exercise better control over it. See that's where you can do, t~. at's the easiest route to doing these performance controls. I've had the ~dood fortune of being able to work with some of the better developers arour4d here. You know, the Opus' and used to Trammel Crow who would be able ~(o come to you and said I'll develop 500 or 600 acres in accordance with ~ very high architectural theme. In accordance with a very high lands~caping theme and you work this through. Well that's basically the kind ~f development we're saying that we'd consider as an alternative to single family on that property. Conrad: Were there residents in there from Timberwood? Krau~: Well yeah, there were a few. 3ust as a short antidote. Ursula was ,talking to one of the neighborhood residents there, Bill Miller who's been :~¢ery active and had met with him on Friday. Bill apparently came away from i'that meeting with the assumption that the City Council is deviating in a ma~sive scale from everything that's been done and there was a telephone F~ . campatgn to get people out over the weekend. Monday morning people were calling me up and saying, what are you doing? You know, what's going on? And ~ said, well what do you mean? You're way changing the comprehensive plan Who told you that? It turned out to have a rather smooth reception at t~e City Council. Mary Harrington was there and did raise a concern but ,. Plan~;ing Commission Meeting Febrqary 6, 1991 - Page 64 it's quite clear that the plan that the City Council ultimately approved is the e'xact same plan they saw 2 weeks before and it's the exact same plan that iyou approved in October. It hasn't changed. And once that was clear, it w~s pretty smooth sailing. Conrfd: My only question. _ Emmifgs: Anything else on the City Council update? Krau~s: Well just to point out. We've been talking about a corridor stud~,. Originally the assessment of looking at the 1995 study area on TH 5 whic~ we all agreed to do and the Council wanted us to do, has seemed to have ~expanded into this corridor study concept. There's a desire on behalf of t rP"e City Council that a task force be established to work on that with some ~Planning Commission representation, some representation from the Coun¢~il and some of the area residents and some of the developers to serve on t~ere and set some goals for that. Of course anything that would be done 'would come back through Planning Commission for full Planning Comm[-ssion comment and then back up to the Council. It's still an idea. Everybody seems to be excited about it and it's great. Me're going to do some lreal interesting things with that. I'm not exactly sure when we'll get ~t off the ground. It was laid out that we clearly have to get the Comp i'Plan approved before we jump into that but they do want to start that late~, this year. Oh, one last thing too. You wanted to raise an issue about.-, the next. Emmi~gs: Yeah, I will. We've got the ongoing issue sheet here. It's time to g~t some of that stuff off there. I think I'll talk to you about this beca¼se I'd like to see that revised a little bit but maybe I'll talk to you ~'nd then we'll present something. KrauSls: Okay. There's actually quite a few changes iD here since the last time ~we looked at this but yeah, let's sit down and do that. Emmir,'gs: Then in our packet there's a letter. I 9uess that's just for our general information about a letter to Andrew Schmitt from Jo Ann Olsen? Ells~n: The Video Update guy. Emmi~gs: Video Update and the antenna. I didn't know why it was in there. Krauss: Oh, oh, oh. It was an administrative approval so ~4e were .just makiC-lg you aware of it. Over on TH 7 and TH 41. Emmi~gs: Oh, okay. And then Paul tells me there are not sufficient issues to h~ving, a second meeting this month unless something caf] be done on an issu~ . or is there not time~ Kraufs-" Mr. Chairman, yeah. I don't want to commit to doing something that~ we generated a lot of material for this one and got a lot of things scheduled. A lot of minor stuff. We wanted to clear a lot of that up. Honeftly I'm still in the process of getting the comprehensive plan finaled out ~nd making application to the Metro Council. That will take me into next '-;'.Week. The next major job that Jo Ann and I need to tackle is getting requ~..sts for proposals out on the surface water utility district so that we Pian~ing Commission Meeting , Febr~ry 6, 1991 - Page 65 can ~et the consultants on line and helping us ~ith that. That kind of take~ up probably the rest of that month so I'm a little bit leery of telling you that we'll, at this point that ~e can 3ump into those areas for the r~xt meeting. Emmimgs: Okay, so there won't be a second meeting in February? Kraus~s: Correct. Yes, we'll send out a notice to that. Emmi r~r~S: I have run, the second meeting of each month has been run very well End very quickly. Ahrer~: I ~4on't be here for the first meeting in March. Emmimgs: Do you have a note. Conr~d moved, /%hrens seconded to ad3ourn the meeting. /%11 voted in favor and ~he motion carried. The meetin~ was ad3ourned at 11:20 p.m.. .. SubmiTted by Paul Krauss Plan¢ing Director Prepc~red by Nann Opheim