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PC 1998 12 02CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING DECEMBER 2, 1998 Chairman Peterson called the meeting to order at 7;00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Craig Peterson, Allyson Brooks, Alison Blackowiak, Matt Burton and Ladd Conrad MEMBERS ABSENT: Kevin Joyce and LuAnn Sidney STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Planning Director; Bob Oenerous, Senior Planner; and Dave Hempel, Asst. City Engineer (The recording quality was very poor of this meeting.) PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR SIGN PLAN APPROVAL FOR COLONIAL SQUARE CENTER LOCATED ON WEST 78TM STREET AT GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD, LOTUS REALTY. Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item and the commissioners asked some questions for clarification. Conrad moved, Blackowiak seconded to open the public hearing. The public hearing was opened. There were no comments from the public. Blackowiak moved, Conrad seconded to close the public hearing. The public hearing was closed. Chairman Peterson asked for commissioner comments. Conrad: ... architecturally interesting and compatible with the, that's arbitrary but I think that's okay. It's real arbitrary. The intent is real valid. No doubt about that... Mr. Chairman, I kind of agree with you on... if that was one inch deep, I don't think you'd... Brooks: I'm not sure. Can I have a couple more minutes to gather my thoughts? Peterson... Blackowiak: ... In terms of city wide..., let's start with that. You know we start with.., so I think to require.., would be difficult if not onerous on the owner of the property so I wouldn't want to see that. Secondly, the building has an uncertain future... I submit that the PUD at the Villages has slightly different standards. A PUD in and of itself has different things happening from the beginning.., so I think that we should look at... so to say that we've got lighting at the Villages doesn't necessarily apply to Colonial Square. So I would hope that we could work with Colonial Planning Commission Meeting - December 2, 1998 Square. Work with the tenant there but let's not worry about lighting and let's realize that Villages and Colonial Square are lwo very different properties... That's it. Peterson: Matt. Burton: I pretty much agree with what Alison just said. I had written down a couple of notes also on the stafl's recommendation too as it deals with the panel signs. I agreed with Alison to strike the word minimum and I had written down, and strike the one inch but I added, a projection or indentation of a scale appropriate to the size of the lettering. I don't know if that helps or it doesn't help or if it just makes it more vague but it may avoid a real shallow indentation or a real small projection. I also thought that the recommendation of the staff should be part of the introductory sentence revised to add that the sign ordinance applies to the whole, the sign at this mall, or this center also... As per the other items I think that there could be a glare issue with the location of the Colonial Square shopping center so I do understand the stafl's recommendations there. The applicant made a good point also.., so I guess I'm inclined to follow the stafl's recommendation on those items. However the hanging sign, I could go either way I guess on whether it has to be internally illuminated or not. I guess that's it. Peterson: Allyson. Brooks: Well I've been wrestling with the concept that we wanted, that Vemelle wants to do something with old town and I guess what I was trying to... was why we're worried about putting signs that maybe are historical or old on a building that's not even close to being historical or old. And I'm also, I just kind of wonder where we were at with old town. I don't think there's been any conclusions on what we wanted to do there anyway. I mean did we resolve ever, I don't believe we ever actually finally resolved that .... They did, okay .... so that solves that problem. We have no old town. Aanenson: Well I think it goes back to what Alison... Brooks: Right, so we're worrying about putting in a sign that will... Aanenson: Well I think what we're saying is that we're willing to look at something different... Brooks: Well that's fine. Other than that, I guess that was my only sort of point that I was kind of curious about... Other than that I have no trouble with panel signs as long as they're interesting and I agree with the other commissioners. I'm not sure about the 1 inch. If that's absolutely necessary.., what difference that makes. And I can understand why somebody might want it... but I agree with Matt that it probably.., those are my comments and thanks for explaining the old town... Peterson: My comments are not dissimilar. I think it's... I'm not as concerned about external... Aanenson: I think part of the issue here is if you look at the, if we were to look at this as an after the fact but if this was to come in and either approve the lighting plan, the street lighting.., and 2 Planning Commission Meeting - December 2, 1998 then it's hard for us to estimate how many signs are going to come in, the external illumination adding to that. That just complicates it. But in this scenario it may be moot because the lighting is all in place. But just keep it in the back of your mind that this would be adding to that. Peterson: Right... With that, may I have a motion? Conrad: Mr. Chairman, could I ask a question? As I look at the staff recommendation, it does say external illumination.., so based on what we just said, what does that mean? Aanenson: As part of that variance you may ask them to... with the wattage. You might want to look at that. Conrad: Kate, do you know how good signage is... ? Aanenson: It will be... Conrad: And why wouldn't you want that.., why wouldn't you want this illuminated? .... to match this with what do you have, Powell Communications. Who's on the? Vemelle Clayton made a comment from the audience. Conrad: So how do you mesh this type of signage with that kind of signage? That doesn't make sense Vemelle. Vemelle Clayton: I agree with you but... Aanenson: That was part of our concern. We couldn't see how that worked on this type of a sign because the Timber Lounge does have, well it does have the Lounge. It has individual letters so it's a little bit different. Conrad: Feels okay, yeah. It's okay. Not having lit signage, if you're in business. I don't know. Vemelle Clayton: I don't think we have enough information on how that... They need to get a sign up and then perhaps deal with the lighting issue later. Not have it lit... Aanenson: That would be our position too. To work it through a variance that someone up there suggested, so we can see how that works and what makes sense and what it does for the rest of the building. Conrad: So I'm handling this real casually Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry about that. But so if our approval of the sign plan tonight will in no means indicate we are going to permit that to be illuminated in the future. It may or may not be. Aanenson: What we're saying is it's prohibited. You always have a right to come back for the variance. Planning Commission Meeting - December 2, 1998 Conrad: That's right. Just so you know that. I think it's, well just so you know that. Aanenson: Or amend this condition. Bob is right, you could come back and amend this condition. Either way. Conrad: Yeah. Peterson: So with that, is there a motion? Blackowiak: I'll move the Planning Commission approves request for sign plan review for Colonial Square shopping center with the following conditions. Conditions 1, 3, 4 and 5 with condition 2 amended to read, panel signs shall have individual dimensional letters and logos with a projection or indentation, and I'm going to borrow from what Matt said. Compatible to the scale of the building. I don't know exactly what he said but... Burton: Appropriate for the size of the lettering. Blackowiak: Okay, thank you. Whatever he said. Okay. Peterson: Is there a second? Brooks: Second. Peterson: Any discussion on that? Conrad: Did we not say that under the recommendations, number 4, that we didn't want hanging signs to be internally self illuminated? Peterson: Yes. Aanenson: They said that they wouldn't allow it so we'd recommend that you eliminate that as a condition. And I think you wanted to add something about that it be consistent with the sign ordinance, just to make sure that's in there too. If you wanted to make that number 4. The rest of it, that they get a permit... Burton: Well I guess I'd make a friendly amendment to make that, the item number 4, that all signs shall comply with the Chanhassen sign ordinances.., these others or not. Peterson: Discussion points. Do we all know what we're doing then? With that may I have a vote. Blackowiak moved, Burton seconded that the Planning Commission recommends the City Council approve the request for a sign plan review for Colonial Square Shopping Center with the following conditions: 4 Planning Commission Meeting - December 2, 1998 Panel signs are permitted provided they are architecturally interesting and compatible with the building. Panel signs shall have individual dimensional letters and logos with a projection and identification compatible with the scale of the lettering on the sign. 3. External illumination of any signage is prohibited. 4. All signage shall comply with the Chanhassen sign ordinances. Barber shop poles shall be limited to 4 feet in height and a 12 inch projection from the building. The number of barber shop poles shall not exceed 2 for the entire building. All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Commission Burton noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated November 18, 1998 as presented. ONGOING ITEMS: Aanenson: Your next meeting will be January 6th. Right now we have the lighting ordinance on. Back, and then we'll also possibly look at some of the rezonings. We do have some items that will be on in the January, some site plans and for the second meeting in January. But I also wanted to let you know that the comp plan did receive comments from the Met Council. About eight pages of comments so they did review the first draft, which we'll be responding to. Some of them are pretty minor. Some of them just clarification. So we were pretty pleased. So we'll get those back up and hopefully, you know until they actually approve it, then we go back to Council for final adoption and we'll get those copies back to you but we were pretty pleased with the comments that we got back so work for the year. Also on Monday night work session, went through the, we're still trying to get a draft of the Bluff Creek overlay zone so we had a good meeting with Council on Monday night. Spent about 45 minutes going back through, reiterating the reason for that again. Looking at sustainable development and why we want to do. I think there was a big fear that we're compressing so much zoning.., really that what we're trying to do is take some of that fragile area, development out of that so they will be putting that on for their meeting on December 14 and hopefully that will be approved. Blackowiak: Kate I have a quick question. Based on the council's decision, yea or nay on Bluff Creek, does that affect the comp plan submitted to Met Council? Aanenson: No. Blackowiak: Because we did reference that in many instances. Planning Commission Meeting - December 2, 1998 Aanenson: Right. Yes. Yes. I believe that they're pretty close to adopting it. There's just some clarification issues that they wanted to go through and I have confidence that it will probably be adopted. They did approve the first reading so it's just a matter of just the comfort level and the clarification of some issues. Good questions and good discussion. With that, I think that's all I had for ongoing items. Peterson: Then we go to the comp plan rezoning process. Aanenson: Sure. If you want to do approval of Minutes we can close this part of the meeting out and just make that the informal part of the meeting if you so chose. Peterson: We already noted the minutes so we can adjourn. Chairman Peterson adjourned the meeting at 7:35 p.m. Submitted by Kate Aanenson Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 6