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PC 1997 05 21CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION IlEGULAIl MEETING MAY 21, 1997 Chairman Peterson called the meeting to order at 7;00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Allyson Brooks, Alison Blackowiak, Ladd Conrad, Craig Peterson, LuAnn Sidney, and Bob Skubic MEMBEIlS ABSENT: Kevin Joyce STAFF PIlESENT: Bob Generous, Senior Planner; Todd Gerhardt, Asst. City Manager, and Philip Elkin, Water Resource Coordinator SITE PLAN IIEVIEW FOIl A 101,600 SQ. FT. OFFICE AND INDUSTIIlAL BUILDING (HEAIlTLAND) ON PIIOPOSED LOT 1, BLOCK 3; LOCATED AT THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF HWYS 5 AND 41, GATEWAY PARTNERS, STEINER DEVELOPMENT. Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item. Peterson: Any questions of staff before the applicant makes their presentation? Blackowiak: I have a couple quick questions. On page 10 of the revision that you gave us. You're requiring a multi story building on Lot 5. That's the northwest comer of TH 5 and TH 41, is that correct? Okay, and is this some type of a requirements you've put into any other PUD or is this the first time it's been used? Generous: This is the first time... On the Villages on the Ponds they needed the vertical... Blackowiak: Okay, and why did you think a multi story was appropriate for that? Generous: ... goes back to the idea that we want some type of a grand entrance into the community and... It's difficult to plan for what... Blackowiak: Okay. And then on page 11, at the very bottom you're talking about landscaping. Can you just clarify for me what the difference between buffer yard standards C and B are. Generous: As part of the city ordinance, we've established transition buffer yards and they're quantitative standards that developers go through. BuffEr yard B is more a boulevard. BuffEr yard C is more intensive landscaping and it provides a better screening. In fact then we felt that nd within the interior of the development on the north/south... 82 Street, you didn't really want to have the screening. You wanted to get the boulevard effect and then.., on the exterior we would like to sort of hide the development... Blackowiak: Okay, so C is boulevard. B is screening basically? Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 Generous: No. B is boulevard and C is. Blackowiak: B is boulevard, okay. I'm sorry. Generous: And I can go through the technical... Blackowiak: Okay. And then does that explain then, I mean I might be getting ahead ofmyselfa little bit. Does that explain the changes in the tree requirements? Generous: For along the north/south boulevard... Blackowiak: Okay, good. Thank you. Peterson: Would the applicant like to make their presentation? Fred Richter: I'm Fred Richter with Steiner Development. Glad to be back here this evening. What we'll have is a presentation. We've got materials. I'll try to address the issues of making it more understandable, and I think we've also had the architects take a little deeper look at what they thought was appropriate given some of the feedback at the last meeting. So what I'll do is I'll call on Dwayne Kell, principle and President of Ankeny Kell Architects who has some, the boards. Some handouts. We've got some material samples and try to clarify what was given to you in the handout. You did get a handout I believe mid-week or late last week that showed the perspective and that was taken at a different angle than some of the other details so hopefully this is a little clearer. Dwayne is here and will hand that out and we'll kind of go over some of Ankeny Kell's thoughts on the building exterior. Dwayne Kell: Thank you Fred. I'm Dwayne Kell with Ankeny Kell Architects in St. Paul. I'll leave these on here. Hopefully you'll be able to see them. What I handed out to you is a detail of an elevation and I'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute. I'm also going to give you a sample board, which is a more accurate description of the colors. The color Xerox machine isn't quite into all the refinements of the colors so .... and as Fred mentioned, this is the actual pre-cast with the reveal and some of the coloration that you'll see in the elevation and we'll talk more about this, and I'd pass it around but it's pretty heavy. What we've done this last couple of weeks is, as Fred mentioned, took into consideration some of the feedback that we received at the last Planning Commission meeting and have revised the elevations substantially from before in order to accommodate some of those concerns. Primarily what you're looking at on the screen that's showing. Can you see it on the screen? So what you're looking at, at the top elevation here is the east elevation which arrays the openings and the patterns and the modulation of those entrances. Each of the entrances has been modified to include a shallow arched detail, which is much more traditional in terms of, and softer in terms of some of the architecture that exists in the community of Chanhassen. In addition we have identified specific signage areas which are located immediately over the doorway entrances. The banding that you see has been increased substantially horizontally in order to break down the scale of the building vertically and to give more articulation to that facade. Window placements reflect the use inside of the building for offices and solid areas. So basically the detail that you see is an actual detail of one of those 2 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 entrances and all of the coloration is basically defined within the reveal system that's part of the facade. So as you see the purplish color that's adjacent to the doorways, again to try to break down some of the scale of the entrances. To make it more human scale is within a reveal as well as the color banding that's horizontally placed on the panels. Each of the facades is, or each of the entrances is recessed approximately 5 feet which creates significant shadow lines and more articulation to the facade. And as you see the elevation along the south, the entrance detail goes around that comer so that it again modulates that part of the building. And if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them. Skubic: I have a couple questions regarding your entrance elevation here. Would this be the shadow that we see here in black? Dwayne Kell: Yes. The shadow is shown as black, right. Skubic: And above the near the signage here, would this is window or is that opaque? Dwayne Kell: No. That will be a solid panel but it will be recessed so it will be within the shadow area and it will be painted. That putty tone color that you have on your sample board. Skubic: Okay, thank you. Peterson: The depth of the recess is going to be approximately how much? Dwayne Kell: 5 feet. Each of the entrances. Sidney: I see on your elevation that you have what looks like notches in the top of the panels. Are those the downspouts or? Dwayne Kell: Those are basically overflow scuppers for the roof. To relieve excess water that might accumulate if drains get clogged on the roof. Fred Richter: They're required by code. The drainage is interior with the building. Peterson: Other questions of the applicant? One more. I think, mm to the parking lot. I think this may have been recommended by staff2 I'll look for comments by Bob too. We've got a couple of... but a couple of center islands on the east side of the parking that we've kind of put to separate out the expansiveness but I think currently the size of them doesn't really allow any trees to be put in there, or at least doesn't portray them to be put in there. I'm wondering whether or not, and what the rationale was for putting those in there. Whether staff recommended that. And if so, I guess I'd like to hear from staff as to the true rationale for putting those in there. Generous: We are recommending that... Peterson: Is that, is it really big enough for trees to go into those or not? Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 Generous: You can put a tree in a 4 foot wide area. Fred Richter: It is a tree. We have islands... I know we're working on the final number with stafl~ We recognize we have to break up the parking... Peterson: All right. I don't have any further questions. Does anybody else? Sidney: I guess one thing about the type of signage that you propose for the building. Dwayne Kell: Fred, maybe you can address the signage issue. Fred Richter: Well, I think we probably, our drawings indicated, because it's probably we've got one large tenant initially. This is potentially a multi-tenant building and with that we would have signage over those entrances. That signage under this scheme would be signed. Limited to that dimension. We really haven't worked out the details. Whether it's just letters on the wall or panel. Most likely, one of the things we like about this approach, we could put just letters on the wall which we think is a little more. Sidney: Yeah, I'd vote for that. Fred Richter: And because of the fact that we can repaint them when tenants move out every 5 years or something. So that is something that we would be going to... Dwayne Kell: Also on the signage issue, the intent of that band was to more or less frame the sign and create the place for it consistently throughout the building so that a panel in back of it wouldn't be as desirable as just placing it on the band itself. Fred Richter: ... about this archway, we will probably have some down lighting up into the archway so at night... We're actually, we think this is architecturally a big improvement to what we've done the last couple of years in addressing the overall issues and trying to take an office warehouse, manufacturing building... Peterson: All right, thank you. This item is open for a public hearing. Can I have a motion to open it to a public hearing and a second please? Conrad moved, Blackowiak seconded to open the public hearing. The public hearing was opened. Peterson: Anyone wishing to address the Planning Commission, please do so now and come forward and state your name and address please. Conrad moved, Brooks seconded to close the public hearing. The public hearing was closed. Peterson: Commissioners. Bob, any thoughts regarding this presentation? 4 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 Skubic: It's very nice. I think the applicants have done a good job of, when I first looked at the perspective from the front I was, had a very good initial reaction. I think it's a vast improvement. I'm happy with it. What more can I say? Peterson: LuAnn. Sidney: Yeah, I like the plan as it's presented and think it's a good improvement over the past presentation. I guess one thing I was going to ask about the bicycle parking and storage on the site. I guess I didn't see where that was. That was my only question. But other than that I guess it looks fine to me. Peterson: Okay, Ladd. Conrad: Yeah, far better presentation. Thank you for doing that. That's night and day. Fred Richter: You notice we had to bring the boss in tonight. Conrad: Well I noticed that changed too but, no. It's good. You reduced the size of the scale but also the presentation and what you gave us was what we wanted to see so thank you for doing that. No other comments. Blackowiak: I agree. Much better and Allyson and I were just commenting. It would be nice to have windows over these doors. That might be asking a little much. I do think it's much better. Thank you and a little more glass might be nice but. Fred Richter: We had that option but the tenant... Blackowiak: It would be a nice feature. I'm sure it would be more expensive but. Peterson: Allyson. Brooks: Well like Alison was saying, we were just sort of muttering between ourselves that yeah, more glass would. I think more glass would give it that little extra character and again, you know I understand it's expensive. Just something to keep in the back of your mind. I think it would look really nice, particularly consider the archway and whether that's feasible or not, I don't know but I agree with everybody else. You know 2 weeks ago I was fairly rude about the fact that I didn't like the building and I have to say this is much better and the presentation really made the building come to light and gave me a much better feel for it so yeah, I have no problems with this building. And thank you for taking the time to make a presentation. Peterson: Good, thanks. My thoughts are the same too. It is a tremendous benefit, I think the Council will appreciate your time and effort put in also. I think it will give a much better perspective of really what they're approving so I totally agree. With that, may I have a motion and a second please. Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 Skubic: I'll make a motion that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Site Plan #97- 6 for Heartland America, a 101,600 square foot office building on Lot 3, Block 1, Gateway Business Park shown on plans prepared by Ankeny Kell Architects dated stamped April 4, 1997, subject to conditions 1 through 23 as presented by stafl~ Conrad: Second. Skubic moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission reconunends approval of the site plan #97-6 for Heartland America, a 101,600 square foot office industrial building on Lot 3, Block 1, Gateway Business Park, shown on the plans prepared by Ankeny Kell Architects, dated stamped April 4, 1997, subject to the following conditions: The storm sewer in the rear of the building shall be redesigned to connect to the storm sewer proposed in the north/south street. The storm sewer in the southeast comer of the site shall be redesigned to drain into the proposed storm sewer along 82nd Street West. All driveway access points shall be constructed per the City's Industrial Driveway Detail Plate #5207. Erosion control fence shall be installed and maintained around the perimeter of the site except the west side until all disturbed areas have been revegetated and removal authorized by the City. Storm sewer inlets shall be protected with silt fence, hay bales or rock filter dikes until the parking lots have been paved with a bituminous surface. The applicant shall enter into a site plan agreement with the City and provide the necessary security to guarantee erosion control, site restoration and landscaping. The City's boulevards must be restored with sod. Ifa trail/sidewalk is installed along 82nd Street West or north/south street, the site plan drawings shall be revised accordingly and include pedestrian ramps at driveway access points. Commencement of construction for this development is contingent on the recording of a final plat for Gateway Business Park. Increase evergreen plantings on northwestern and southwestern ends of building to screen loading area from road. Plant materials used shall meet minimum requirements. Revise Heartland plant schedule to reflect ordinance requirements of 7' evergreens. Each landscape peninsula must have one shade tree. Landscape peninsulas less than 10 feet in width must have aeration tubing installed. 6 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. The buff'er yard requirement along the north/south road and 82nd Street is buff'er yard B. The applicant shall install 17 overstory, 35 understory, and 52 shrubs along the north/south road and 5 overstory, 11 understory, and 16 shrubs along West 82nd Street. Watermain shall be looped and extended to the west side of the building. Hydrant spacing shall not exceed 300'. Contact Chanhassen Fire Marshal for exact locations of additional fire hydrants. No Parking Fire Lane signs and yellow curbing shall be provided. Contact Chanhassen Fire Marshal for exact locations of signage and painted curbing. Pursuant to Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention Policy 06-1991. Install a post indicator valve on the water service coming into the building. Contact Chanhassen Fire Marshal for exact location. When fire protection including fire apparatus access roads and water supplies for fire protection is required, such protection shall be installed and made serviceable prior to and during the time of construction. Pursuant to 1991 Uniform Fire Code Section 10.502. The building must comply with Chanhassen Fire Department policy regarding premise identification. (Copy enclosed.) Pursuant to Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention Policy #29-1992. Comply with Chanhassen Fire Department policy regarding maximum allowed size of domestic water service on a combination domestic/fire sprinkler supply line. Pursuant to Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention Policy #36-1994. Comply with Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention policy regarding notes to be included on all site plans. Pursuant to Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention Policy #04-1991. Comply with Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention policy regarding pre-fire plans. Pursuant to Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention Policy #07-1991. (Copy enclosed). Comply with Chanhassen Fire Department/Inspections Division policy regarding water service installation for commercial and industrial buildings. Pursuant to Inspection Division Water Service Installation Policy #34-1993. (Copy enclosed). Comply with Chanhassen Fire Department policy regarding fire sprinkler systems. Pursuant to Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention Division #40-1995. (Copy enclosed). The applicant shall add painted panels with reveal edge to mimic windows which shall be continued on the north and south elevations. 7 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 22. Pedestrian access shall be provided from the site to the public sidewalk and trail system on West 82nd Street and out to the north/south street. 23. The applicant shall provide areas for bicycle parking and storage on site. All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVAL OF DEVELOPMENT DISTRICT NO. 6~ TAX INCREMENT FINANCING DISTRICT NO. 6-1. Todd Gerhardt presented the staff report on this item. Peterson: Any questions for Todd? I guess you got an A on your verbal presentation too. Sidney: One comment I guess I was noticing the PUD plan as it's attached. I don't think it's up to date in terms of information. Gerhardt: Yeah, that was the most current plan that I had. I think that is the reference so they understood where the project area was. That will not be included in that plan itself. And Bob will make sure that the developer... A good point. Peterson: Other questions? Does this require a public hearing? I don't think it does, does it? Gerhardt: It's not on the Planning Commission agenda. It does on the City Council and this coming Monday, the City Council has that scheduled to take city input. And we also provided notice over to the School District and County and to date we have not received written comments. However, the School District does have us on their schedule for the 29th to give them an overview of the project. Peterson: So all that's really needed from us is just the approval as presented tonight? Gerhardt: Yeah. I think it was 2, or 3 weeks ago that you did approve the PUD for this area and basically that's when you took your action on this .... through their application they have met the state requirements and they have made all.., so when you made your motion basically that night, you have approved the development consistent for the city and the overall development. However under Minnesota Statute... recognize that issue by... and the plan does call up for a water reservoir built in the area. Future possibility of extension of Coulter Boulevard. Parklands that are to be used as part of the development.., transferred from the developer to the city. And a trail system and the intersection changes. Traffic signals and the intersection construction. All that is outlined in the plan as public improvements that need to be... also know that we are going to enhance the tax base, industrial tax base. Create employment opportunities in our community and assist this development... Peterson: With that, May I hear a motion from my fellow commissioners? 8 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 Blackowiak: Can I make a quick comment? We had, I mentioned this to Bob the other day. l(a) states the extension of Coulter Boulevard. And I would request that we consider amending that to the potential extension of Coulter Boulevard or something similar so that should the Council or the Park and Rec Commission or whomever decides it. That is something to do, that we have not passed a resolution stating the extension. We just, there may be the potential or possible or some word that would not require the extension. Gerhardt: That can be done. Blackowiak: Okay. Gerhardt: I think the Council would probably... Peterson: With that comment, may I hear a motion. Blackowiak: I will move then the Planning Commission approve the development of District No. 6 and TIF District No. 6-1 consistent with the city's comprehensive plan and zoning ordinance, including items 1 through 5 with item 1 amended to say the potential extension of Coulter Boulevard. Peterson: Is there a second? Brooks: I'll second it. Peterson: Any discussion? Blackowiak moved, Brooks seconded that the Planning Commission reconunend approval of the resolution declaring the program and plan for Development District No. 6 and Tax Increment Financing District No. 6-1 consistent with the city's comprehensive plan and the plans for development of Chanhassen as a whole with item 1 in the purpose of the district being amended to state the potential extension of Coulter Boulevard. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. BLUFF CREEK ORDINANCE DISCUSSION - MARK KOEGLER. Mark Koegler: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. I don't know if Bob had any introduction. Did you want to do anything or do you just want to launch into this? We'll launch into it. I'm Mark Koegler with Hoisington-Koegler Group, for those of you that I haven't met in the past. If you don't mind, I will adjourn to the table over here so I can take some notes as we go through some things. I know some of you were present at the meeting we had Monday night to kick ofl~ at least formally kick off the comprehensive plan effort. I think in talking to Kate, kind of what she envisioned for this evening's efforts as well at least, not kick off in such a grand scale but kick off'.., as far as the Planning Commission's direct involvement goes. And what I'd like to do is kind of briefly outline. I think you're all familiar that we're talking about the Bluff 9 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 Creek management plan that undoubtedly by now you've all committed to memory. A lot of information. We're kind of talking about framework issues tonight and what it's going to take to take this plan from the plan you adopted at the end of last year into actual implementation and there's been some... The management plan really relied upon three principle tools for implementation. They're pretty well detailed there .... there probably are a few tools that we're going to have to look at supplementing. Specifically there is the.., ordinance and issues that are within that that you're aware of may need to be modified in order to achieve some of the recommendation revision that's outlined in this document. One of the tools that we've talked about before that's likely to be used will be some form of density transfer. At least we'll be discussing that as an alternative, whereby obviously we will take that density from otherwise very sensitive lands and apply that to other areas.., parcels which may not be as sensitive and the issue with the.., problem in transferring that density from say a higher density classification to a lower classification and in the attachment I think the packet.., memorandum that Bob put together in January or so, did a very nice job of laying that out... As we look at some of the issues, just to kind of give you a preview of what likely may happen, we also.., that public acceptance of this concept is probably going to require some education. Maybe in general will require that. It's easy to sit here tonight or in previous sessions and talk about how a good way to achieve this might be to cluster or transfer density and so forth but when you start really looking at what that means, what that means is we're taking the density from one area and we're concentrating it in another area. And if you focus on one area, yes indeed.., higher density. Look at the watershed as a whole.., parcel as a whole, overall it's much lower. I think we'll have to kind of walk through that together and probably spend some time sorting that out. Because clearly as part of the implementation is kind of these conceptual ideas that we talk about will actually become a reality... I think it's probably fair to anticipate that again it will take some public education and acceptance if that concept... The actual form of the ordinance that we're going to be looking at, you've worked with various... The model that's likely to be followed is similar to I think it's the Highway 5 ordinance which is... but a provision that will have a set of overlay standards that will be on top of or inclusive of the.., zoning classification and requirements that are contained within that. So within the geographic area that's defined as the Bluff Creek area itself, this extra set of rules apply. The intent also is clearly that the ordinance will have outlining within it specific tools and standards also.., achieving the overall objectives of the Bluff Creek management plan. We also would anticipate and is probably again similar to the Highway 5 ordinance is that there will be a fairly liberal use of graphics within that to help very quickly convey the concepts and ideas that sometimes are more difficult to sort out as you read through a report. So we're going to try to make the ordinance very understandable and very, certainly true to the purpose of implementing the plan. It's probably premature to sit here tonight and focus specifically on one thing.., because we've just begun some background research and we're kind of meshing that with the recommendations of the plan and coming back to you in subsequent sessions. I think it's fair to say though that the tools that we'll be focusing on, there will be a number of them. There will be a number of them that, some of them are probably ones that you're familiar with. I touched on density transfer before. We'll attempt to undoubtedly look at specific standards regarding impervious surfacing within the overall district. It may be different. It may need to be different than the.., from a technical standpoint. Chanhassen has been pretty diligent throughout the years in it's application of best management practices.., context of larger study areas but... For those of you water quality enhancing methods that undoubtedly will be used and employed. The 10 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 conservation easement.., again to preserve significant open space or significant natural resource area... Land dedication to the degree that park and open space can be included as a part of that. Another tool that will be looked at. We should be so lucky to think that maybe we'll get a couple of land donations along the way. You never know. We have seen that in other communities that we've worked in where once you've identified an overall plan that's as comprehensive as this is and it... that may be a factor... Purchases of land clearly is one of the items detailed in the capital improvement program. There are corresponding budget amounts within there and I think that will be refined and it will be used as a tool that will be outside of the ordinance work that we're specifically talking about tonight. Then there's always the possibility of conjuring up something new.., incentives that we may be able to look at them may be appropriate here.., typically might require special legislation in order to... so we're not closing our eyes I guess to only traditional tools and taking a broad spectrum look at what actually is done to implement the plan. I think it's probably safe to say that there is not any one specific rule that handles this ordinance to make this comprehensive of a plan actually take shape and.., over time it's really going to be a collection of the structure of the ordinance and recommendations of the ordinance and some of the peripheral or the buying of... Things that tie back to the plan and the comprehensive plan itself. As far as a schedule goes, we are looking at trying to wrap this up by potentially the summer and I think it's... Kate's kind of trying to coordinate with the comprehensive plan. Specifically tonight after the introduction of this, be able to slot in an agenda time in June, depending upon what the agendas look like, to take a better look at the graphic analysis. Maybe an... You've all had the large plans and you've had the color plans and so forth but taking a look a little harder at the densities that are within that and what that begins to mean if we talk about density transfer or something of that nature. And how will that really work and what might it look like. We'll be focusing on that a bit next time. Perhaps I'd expect we'd have.., things that set the tone in the ordinance itself and are important in that regard. We're looking then at having a draft of this together in, basically in total for you to look at in July. As necessary, July and August to work your way through that and then tentatively looking at a public hearing sometime in September. The goal then being over the course of time, once it's in place, to actually begin implementation of the particular sites. So that's kind of my walk through. Give you a preview of what we're going to accomplish. We have a lot of detail.., and then field any questions... Peterson: Questions from fellow commissioners? Skubic: Density transfers will be within the Bluff Creek zoning all right? Mark Koegler: Yes, correct. Skubic: So people who are moving into the district really wouldn't know what would be going next to them. We wouldn't be able to say a whole density development. There might be a transfer and that might change. Mark Koegler: I think that's why we want to get into some of the picture of what this looks like next time. Really the first step, raising a good point. How are we going to work that property? What are the expectations? Not only for your property but the property next to you and if you spent some time pouring through that you noted there's a primary and a secondary zone that are 11 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 talked about with regard to preservation... And indeed we are looking at standards that apply to the Bluff Creek area but the Bluff Creek area is also adjacent to properly that's not in the Bluff Creek area, and I think we can look at all those interfaces and ultimately that might lead to standards to provide some kind of transition.., kind of bufl'ering between those types of uses where those situations occur so we're going to certainly focus on that... Skubic: Thank you Mark. Peterson: Mark, is there any way, and I think we've at various times talked about this before but waiting until September to really have a formal public hearing. Are there ways that we can proactively get feedback and involvement from the community before the plan is done? Mark Koegler: Yeah I think, I would certainly assume that's possible. Particularly since perhaps the opportunity might be there that there are these series of comprehensive plan meetings that the public's going to be apprised of... how that fits into that schedule. Peterson: And I know it's difficult to get involvement but I guess I'd certainly like to try as best as we can. Mark Koegler: There's always a fine line in defining exactly when is an effective time for involvement, not from the Planning Commission point of view but the public's point of view also. I think we need something to kind of...that's a little definitive to look at and say I like this about that or I don't like that. I think we clearly need to get part way down the road but certainly there's probably interim times when we... Peterson: Other questions? Conrad: To get, density transfer's going to be a tough one. Although it's a great concept. We've just never done it in this town. Mark have you, you haven't mentioned reducing the minimum lot size. And that's probably a better way, more, well I don't even know that. But I'd sure like you to take a look at that in this overlay district and I'm not sure if that still goes back to a zoning issue or if it can be beveled in but I think we have to look at that because I think density transfer's just going to be a tough one to. Mark Koegler: That's a good point. I mean I think really all of the regulatory aspects of the zoning ordinance will be looked at... so I think clearly that's within the boundary of what we'll be looking at. Peterson: Other questions? Conrad: It's interesting. So basically the Bluff Creek plan is not implementable unless we, in full, unless we make it economically feasible by compensating the landowners around. It's kind of a nice way to preserve an asset but now we're trying to figure out how to fund the preservation of the asset. 12 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 Mark Koegler: Well there's obviously a line that's being walked here and you can't simply go out and identify land.., open space without some kind of compensation to the owners. When you reflect what rights properly.., for various parcels. So there's going to be an interesting interplay there. I think the lot size issue.., could have application here... We're going to look at all feasible alternatives and bring those to you but yeah, that does have some... It's not going to be easy to do. It's easy to identify it but.., my comment, it's easy to talk about kind of abstract density transfer but once you're looking at a specific plat, it becomes a different world. The other comment that I would make quickly is that I think clearly and recently staff and the Council have accomplished some of the goals .... one of the subdivisions that you reviewed, and you have to help me with the name of it Bob. Generous: Walnut Grove. Mark Koegler: Okay. The one that Rick Murray proposed. I know there was a lot of give and take and yet the bottom line is, the line of land to be conserved is pretty close to what's identified in this report. So even without the structure being in place today as we hope it will be, which will make it more effective, there are ways of implementing it now. It's not as though there's no way to begin to do this until such time as an ordinance is in effect. It's clearly in the City's best interest to just head off what... Conrad: What was your leverage when you were working with Rick Murray? How do you do that Bob when you really don't have an absolute mechanism to preserve the added 150 feet for setback? How do you negotiate? Generous: It was a confluence of good things. Sathre-Berquist being the engineer for the project and... He saw the benefit for the development overall. Conrad: More marketable maybe, okay. Generous: But it took a long time. If we had the ordinances. Conrad: But he could have said you can't do it. He could have couldn't he? Generous: ... plus Rottlund was willing to... new bungalow style home and that provided some.., they wanted to try out some new villa homes. We showed them the advantages of getting a walkout unit... Peterson: Other questions? Comments? Brooks: Does land donation usually have a tax incentive? Mark Koegler: I'm sorry. Brooks: The land donation program. Is that usually a tax incentive? 13 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 Mark Koegler: Yeah, there are some tax incentives that certainly are attributable to donations and I know Chanhassen going back it was probably 15-20 years ago has used that with their parklands. Herman Field for example was acquired, or when somebody realized the tax donation. Peterson: Okay, thank you. Thank you... APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Conrad noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated May 7, 1997 as presented. ONGOING ITEMS: Generous: The next thing you'll see in regard to the... Fortunately Chanhassen has a lot of ordinances in place to do preservation... We've had discussions with Villages are looking... Skubic: When is the hotel construction going to start? Generous: Any time now. There's an office building, commercial building... That will probably be in '98. Conrad: TIF didn't go through. Generous: At the legislature... Conrad: Specifically for that project. Generous: Because the way the statute's currently written, ifa properly is green acred, you can't use TIF. Create a TIF district out of it... There are some other ways that we could look at, the Carver Counly HRA... Peterson: Any other items? Generous: I can update you. The Springfield Addition... TH 101 and Lyman received final plat approval... It was put on hold because of the utilities upgrade in that area... And Meadows at Longacres 4th Addition... City Council did approve a wetland alteration for chemical treatment notification... Phil's here. He can explain how we... Elkin: Basically we put together a brochure.., and also notified companies that provide the service to let us know where they're treating because there are some, in investigating I found a couple different bacteria products that are a tenth the cost and are advertised more effective... Hopefully steer people in a different direction. On that note, I've gotten an article in the newspaper... Probably 5 calls about... Last year I didn't so I don't know what to tell you... but the City's position is not to... 14 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 Conrad: ... talk to Phil a second here and I don't know if it's, it's probably worth the discussion in front of the Planning Commission. Lotus Lake reviewed milfoil control funding, I think funding came through. Elkin: DNR. Conrad: DNR and a little bit monitored by Phil and we hired a consultant. And what I wanted to do was for the whole lake to get some kind of a management plan. Now just some consensus, and it's not as much a plan as consensus from lakeshore owners as to how do you manage milfoil. Real polar thinking. Some people don't want to treat because worrying about 24D and some people do want to treat because you can walk on water in the lake. The milfoil's that thick. The hope was that this consultant would bring things together and that just, you know I've got to do some, I've got to talk to you Phil separately but it didn't happen and I just want to, it could be my fault too for just not managing it a little bit better but basically he laid down five alternatives that you can roll them. You can do this but really there wasn't a lot of insight. The concern was, what does 24D do to you. Milfoil will come back every year and you know, you sort of worry about, well not every year but it will come back and then so you treat the lake and you treat the lake and pretty soon it will enter the whole biological, it will be part of the animal chain. It was a hope that we could have heard some stuff like that and we didn't so you know, I'll end my conversation here. I think we didn't do a good job as an association really managing it because we kind of hoped the consultant would do it and we didn't manage the consultant that well. And he didn't give us maybe the information so, I just want to share that with you and it's not his fault. It's just the way we managed him and I don't know that we got our $3,000.00 worth of guidance. Elkin: Well the problem with milfoil, right now it's spreading and there's no easy, quick fix solution to it. It's choking out the lakes. What happens is, unlike other aquatic species that will grow up from the bottom and get a distance from the top. Milfoil goes right to the top and mats on the top so you can't, it makes it difficult for water-skiing is out of the question. Getting your boats in and out, you're constantly getting weeds caught in your propeller. And they are treating it with.., as this consultant pointed out, the most effective way without doing work is treating it. Spraying chemicals. You can weed it out. You can pull it out manually with.., racks, but it fragments on it's own it goes crazy. The other plants in the lakes in Minnesota have not learned to compete with milfoil. Eurasion milfoil. There is a northern milfoil that's native to lakes but have not learned to compete with Eurasion milfoil so basically it's just taking over. Similar to purple loosestrife. What that's done... There is some hope that some weevils that are found native to, in our lake will start feeding on milfoil but as I was afraid that this report would show, there's no, that's another issue.., you can spend thousands of dollars at and you're not going to have an answer you like. I think what I'm trying to... lakeshore owners frustration with the raising tax rates, you've got lakes now you know over crowded. Jet skis. Load watercraft are really.., as more people move to Chanhassen, the lakes are getting used more and milfoil and these exotics are coming in and just really the lakes are not that much.., as people remember them 10 years ago. And another issue on Lotus Lake is we have a Lotus lily which is an endangered plant species and.., will kill it and that's probably the biggest fear I have is that.., it will become extinct. 15 Planning Commission Meeting - May 21, 1997 Conrad: Yeah, it will be gone. Well the good news is that to a degree there's coordination. Half the lakeshore owners will treat at one time. Will know when the chemical's in. We saw some real bad stuff last year when individuals treated and you don't have a clue that they're treating. Little orange signs go up but the skiers who are usually from off the lake, they don't have a clue. You don't want to fall in that stufl~ You just don't. So again, the good news is there's probably some degree of coordination which is positive. Peterson: Thanks. Anything else Bob? Generous: Not right now. Conrad moved, Blackowiak seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 8:00 p.m. Submitted by Kate Aanenson Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 16