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1991 04 17 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING APRIL 7, 1991 Cha n Emmings called the meeting to order at 7:40 p.m.. : Tim Erhart, Ladd Conrad, Steve Emmtngs, 3eff Farmakes, and n Ahrens : Annette Ellson and Brian Batzli : Paul Krauss, Planning'Director and Dave Hempel, Senior lng Technician MEMBE! STAFF Engi PUBLII PRI TI IN~RY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 9.14 ~CRES INTO 14 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS ON ZONED RSF. RESIDENTIAL SIN~_-I__E F~Q~ILY ~ LOCATED NORTH OF H~Y 5 ON Publ Present: Mark Susan Senn a 3acoby Beth arrington Mike £ingman Alex ~ Diane Wagenaar Brook~ Myhran Denny & Mickey Kopfmann 3eann, MacLean Steve ;tz 3acki, Kurvers Myrna rvers Peter 4. Kurvers Paul urvers Frank in 3. Kurvers Mel K[rvers Scott Harri 7160 Willow View Cove 7251Kurver's Point Road 51 Twin Maple Lane 40 Twin Maple Lane 7130 Willow View Cove 60 Twin Maple Lane 7290 Kurver's Point 7280 Kurver's Point 7200 Willow View Cove 7240 Kurver's Point Road Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings Paul rauss presented the staff report on this item. Chairman Emmings calle the public hearing to order. Mark enn: Hello. My name is Mark Senn. I live at 7160 Willow View Cove. We'll try to keep this short. I'm President of the Kurvers Point Homeo ~ner's Association. We've had a homeowners association meeting deali ~g with this topic. The association basically is or represents 20 famil .es that currently live in or building in Kurvers Point as well as about over 40 of our children. We're really concerned about the thru streel, issue as it's being proposed by staff and everyone who lives in Kurve"s Point, at least at this point, is in unanimous agreement that we'd like .o see the cul-de-sac stay. We feel there's a number of circumstances which have been ignored by staff that are unique to our situation out Plan Apri ther, I cul-~ circ~ whic Prai' ~ing Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 2 · First of all, if you go up and down TH 101, most every street that of that's in the city that goes in towards the lake is a sac already· Beyond that, we feel that we have some extenuating mstances because our street is viewed as an extension of Valley View is a major east/west connector running all the way through Eden ~e. On, let's call it a slow day, we probably end up with over a doze vehicles seeking a route to the lake or something else but basically view our street as an extension of Valley View. On a nice day it gets a lot than that. Since the dead end sign has been put up, a lot of that been cut in about half but it hasn't come anywhere close, to stopping it. still get a lot of traffic down the street. As it is again, people evid~ lly viewing this as.an extension or thinking it's a way to find the way down to a park or the lake or whatever. We really think that that ituation would get substantially worse if it's a thru street and we' seen the effect of putting the dead end sign up now which is at least been positive but still hasn't achieved the results we'd like to see. We'd really like to see the neighborhood stay as it is now. The fami ~es I think all enjoy it that way. Our kids enjoy a safe play env' nt, or at least a reasonably one which we feel would be extremely dtzed by making Kurvers Point Road a thru street. We understand · st s point of view as it relates to emergency vehicles but we feel the other issues far outweigh the few seconds or whatever that it's going to take ~dditional time for emergency vehicles to get there and I think most the h)meowners are willing to live with that risk rather than see the road go th'ough. And if you'd like to hear from all 20 families or whatever, we can b~t I think that's generally the comments that we're all in agreement with nd if you have any questions, we'd be happy to answer them· Emmin s: Was anyone ever made aware, or when did you first become aware that ,he plan for the entire subdivision included a connection back out to TH lO ? Mark ann: Well I can only say personally I did at the first homeowners assoc ation meeting I attended this year. Emmin~ls: So it was just this year that you learned that? Mark ann: Again, I can only speak for myself on that. Emmin s: Okay. Mark enn: Thank you. Alex Also of ep years as a tr motor main the i enaar: I'm Alex Wagenaar. I live at 7130 Willow View Cove. think it's relevant in my professional background. I'm a professor ology at the University of Minnesota and prior to that, for 10 was at the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute entist. My professional area of research and effort deals with safety. I study daily the consequences of children being hit by cles. And it's a very disturbing area in which to work. The and the regularity with which this happens in our country and my n is not only for my own two boys that live in this area. With ease traffic that will come through if this is made a thru street Plan lng Commission Meeting Apri 17, 1991 - Page 3 and ~e point that was made that it's directly across from Valley View Road and ~ ets tremendous increase in traffic. People seeking access to the lake or 3~t misunderstanding that it's not a continuation of Valley View Road. Inci¢ ~ntally, I'm the first house in Kurvers Point subdivision. The close3t one to TH 101 for the people coming in and I see them coming in halfway and turning around, particuarly late in the afternoon and on the weekends when there's recreational traffic out trying to get to the lake. And t~at's the same time that the kids of the neighborhood are out riding their bicycles and so forth. $o I'm concerned about this. You know in terms of designing new roads, a ma3or effort that's now being implemented, in £u'ope it's frequently called the passification of traffic and that is desi~ling the roads in a way to minimize the hazards. To minimize the inter iction between pedestrians and bicyclists and automobiles. And those interactions are very hazardous and I think if we put this road through, without a cul-de-sac, it will increase the amount of traffic coming through there and that will substantially increase the hazard. Not only to our child en right now but this will be this way for decades to come and it will nfluence hundreds, perhaps thousands of children over those years that ire in that subdivision. Thank you. Emmin is: Could you tell me, it's not completely obvious to me why the road being seen it's Alex gives Valle' Kurve Emm int Alex the Emmim Alex k Go to of the things Emmin$ going there cul-de Alex W will c Emming~ connected back up to TH 101 will increase the problem that you've lith people who are already coming in there. Why will it be more if ooked up at the other end? agenaar: Because if it's a thru road, then it's not a dead end. somebody additional incentive to go straight across. They come to View. They stop. They look and they go straight across into s Point subdivision. It s: And where do they go? sgenaar: They go in a couple of ways. They go down Kurvers Point to and turn around and come back. That's 2 trips. sgenaar= A substantial proportion will come in to Willow View Cove. Che end of that cul-de-sac and come back. A substantial proportion come into my driveway and turn around and go back. A variety of : In that last case, the fact that the road is connected thru isn't o matter. And if the road is connected thru and people drive down nd come back out onto TH 10~, they won't be turning around in a sac and coming by your house a second time. Lgenaar: No. But it's likely to increase the number of people that ,me into the division in the first place. : And why do you think that? Alex W~genaar: Because it will be a thru street. April Emm i n right Alex It co becau~ equiv~ along and t a mil, Emmi n,. get a Alex could roadsJ belt that what divisJ they' that dead ~ acros., Emm i n; end s. put u; Ahren~ Hemps] Ahren~ that t lot ot cur i ct built. Alex b Emmin~ This piece Denny Road. child, locat~ front is TH don't .ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 4 ~s: A thru street right back to where they came'from basically, agenaar: Well they don't know that, Z mean to us it seems like it. es back to TH 101 but it doesn't come back to where they came from :e they come to Valley View, they cross over, they go down about the lent of whatever a city block before it curves. It continues to go They see the lake there and they continue for the rest of the way en back at TH 101, not where they started but whatever it is, a half s: I wonder if they'd be dumb enough to do that twice if they didn't ywhere but maybe they are. agenaar: Well, we haven't surveyed these people. I don't know if we stop them without some police assistance. I've done a lot of de surveys and stopping people and interviewing them about safety se and looking at child safety device use of people. We've not done n this case and that's a possible thing that we could do to find out hey're thinking. What they're looking for. Why they came into the on in the first place. What their ultimate destination was and how e being, whatever the configuration of the road is not discouraging dequately enough. But I think that if it's a thru street, it's not a nd street, that it may very well encourage additional traffic to come Valley View into the subdivision. s: Thank you. Can we, ask the City, can we lie and put up a dead gn there if it isn't a dead end? If it was a thru street, could we a dead end sign? : Why don't you just put a no lake access sign? : That's a possibility, yes. : That seems to make more sense. Just a quick comment. I think here's probably a lot of traffic going through now because there's a lots for sale back in there and probably there's Just a lot of local sity. People want to look inside the new subdivision that's being agenaar: Do you think they come out and look at houses... Let's keep trucking through. We're in a public hearing here. your chance to be heard so whoever else would like to address this Kopfmann: Hi. I'm Denny Kopfmann. I live at 7290 Kurvers Point My approach is a little different. All of my neighbors have small eh. I have children that are 16 and 13. My son is driving. And I'm d probably mid-section on Kurvers Point so we do have the big loop in of our house where everybody comes in and turns around. My concern lO1. I want to stay away from it. My kids are scared of it and I ~ant two accesses. I only want one. I guess staff, a question Plann, April I hay. enoug the h when 3 that ~ turn frien( see i Emmi n for cl Denny the f~ biggel moved and wt Eden ~ bikim one a~ only t Emmin~ Alex ~ that assocj for hc devel< Emm i n ,rig Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 5 for you is, the sight lines on this other approach. They're bad where we are now. My kid, we've taught him to brake at the top of 11 so they see his lights. Know he's turning and on a Saturday night our son isn't home and you hear those cars on TH 101, you wonder is eft turn going to be successful, and I'm concerned about that other How are his friends coming over or the kids in the neighborhood, his s visiting, cruising by to see if my daughter's home, cruising by to my son's home, I think the one access makes a lot more sense. s: Could I ask you a question? Are you aware that the original plan nnecting the road back up to TH lO1 included cutting that hill down? Kopfmann: Yes. That concerns me about TH 101 because we don't know ture of TH 101 so if we commit now to a thru street, do we have a battle in the future? Do we have a different thing to address? from Eden Prairie. Ne lived there 15 years. Ne never once came over nt down Kurvers Point until we were looking for a lot but I do see rairie coming over. I see them walking down our access. I see them down our access so ! would just as soon keep it, let's deal with the cess we have on TH 101 because that's dangerous enough. Traffic is ncreasing. Thank you. s: Thank you. Is there anybody else? agenaar: Just to answer your earlier question. We weren't aware t was going to go thru to TH lO~ until the recent homeowners ation meeting either. On the plat that I saw when we were shopping uses, it ended where it does now. The rest of it just said future nment. s: So it was your assumption. Alex ~sgenaar: That was a cul-de-sac. Emmim s: Okay, and that was going to stay that way? Alex ~sgenaar: Yeah. Scott qarri: Mr. Chairman. I'm Scott Harri and I represent the developer here. I was wondering if you wanted me to put in our two cents now or at your convenience? Emmim these to TH Scott their subdi~ Emmin~ s: One question would be, do you know why the developer didn't tell Folks that that road was going to go thru and get connected back up 1017 qarri: I can't answer that. In fact, throughout the whole process sales literature that we provided them was showing the entire [sion. s: Including a road going back out to TH 1017 Scott 4arri: Yes. The entire project that was approved. Plmnn April Emmin they Scott but ti and ti Me 1 K, Emmin Mel K, Alex dicta remit, But e' chang~ Valle' in thl day. read Valle Road. we h~ ca n t~ in th~ fastel We die was. brochL Emmin~ Mel Kt i nc rea We're someor ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 6 s: So that is information that these people would have seen when ,ought their lots, as far as you know? Harri: I can only conjecture. I've never seen a sales presentation lat was the sales literature that we provided them with the small maps ~ings. .rvers: Can I answer that? 'S: Sure. rvers: I 'm Mel Kurvers. I'm one of the developers. All the people, as probably not informed but the builders were informed and I can't e to the builders what they tell the people. He bought it through a r and again, I can't dictate to the realtors what they tell them. erybody was informed as to what the plan was and we said the only came about when we looked at it with the traffic coming off of View Road, and this is a serious problem. These people are coming re. I can look out my window. I can see them at any hour of the Night. They're coming in there. They're making turns. They don't he sign. People come in there and they say is this an extension of View and I said no. The sign says dead end. It's Kurvers Point You can say what you want. It's only one time but how many times do e people that awe only one time? And if we take that sign down, I 11 you when they come through there and they find out that they are wrong road and they make this turn around, they're going a lot than they are coming in. So if you have any other questions on it. inform the people. We didn't hide anything. We told them what it We told them and the plan is there. The brochure. I've-got a re in my briefcase if you'd like to see what. s: And that shows the whole subdivision with it going'back out? rvers: It shows it but this is 4 years later. Traffic has sad. We've learned and that's why we're up here with this plan. not hiding anything. I've lived here all my life and you can ask e else. Well, I know. didn't know. n Emmit~y why They all said they didn't know and I was wondering Mel Kc by the it's a do le~ previ¢ did le you ' ye Emmin~ Steve I live rvers: Well they didn't know because they probably were not informed realtors or whatever. I mean the plan is there and it does say that second phase. And like any plan, the second phase may change. You rn, I hope we do anyway from what we did in previous times and ds years and that's why we're up here with this plan now. That we ~rn, and I think we've got a good plan and that's why we're here. If got any other questions, I'd be happy to answer them. Thank you. Is there anyone else here who wants to speak? ~estitz: My name is Steve Mestitz and I'm a general surgeon and ,at 7200 Willow View Cove. Part of my training was at a major trauma Plann ,ag Commission Meeting April 17, 199! - Page 7 cente! at Hennepin County Medical Center followed by some time at Childlen's Hospital. The proposal to open this up to TH lOl,although I'm not a~trafficologist. I don't understand all of the in's and out's, seems like ~t would really increase the number of cars that would go through our development and it really scares me because part of my daily job is to take care ~f people who get injured. And having done that at a major trauma cente$, you see a lot of little kids that get hit by a lot of cars. It's a, make make inter 40 ch to co~ more frigh' area Emmin! heari Erhar Ahren Emmi call Mel K Emmin~ Scott I've i and w~ Kurve¥ there reque~ AdditJ their to crc origi landf, 2nd Ac these experi neighl: knowle result had cd 23,00¢ propoz lots ~ nOW CC m a strictly personal standpoint, and I don't necessarily want to his too melodramatic but you only need to see one or two of those to ou very, very motivated to try to cut down the amount of traffic that aces with children that are playing in that area. And I know there's ldren in that area now. There's going to be a lot more in the years e and so from that personal perspective, there's going to be a lot n the years to come. So from that personal perspective, it's very ening to have a non-dead end and more traffic going through that s: Thank you. Anyone else? Is there a motion to close the public g? · : I move we close the public hearing. : Second. s: It's been moved and seconded to close the public hearing. I'll he question. rvers: Wait a minute. We have some information... s: Oh. Go ahead. Harri: I just didn't want to get out of step with your protocol. ntroduced myself. I'm Scott Harri with Van Doren-Hazard-Stalltngs prepared the submittal before you tonight. And also the original s Point 1st Addition. With me tonight, you've met Mel Kurvers and s Frank Kurvers and his son, Paul. We're here this evening ting your recommendation for approval of the Kurvers Point 2nd on as we proposed it. When the Kurvers Family decided to develop :roperty in 1987, they made a very conscience decision at that time mte a unique residential neighborhood of high quality homes. The al site plan that was designed to meet these goals, while respecting rms, both vegetation patterns, existing wetlands and Lotus Lake, the dition of Kurvers Point is now bein~ presented. And Phase II retains original goals but also reflects 4 years of market and development ence. The second phase now represents the addition to an existln~ orhood rather than the creation of a new neighborhood. Hence the dge and experience gained from Phase I is being applied to Phase 2 lng in an enhancement of the overall project. The original site plan lied for 15 lots in phase 2 with an average lot size of just over square feet. In response to the market, the second phase is now sd. It features larger lots with an emphasize on the creation of or the potential to build walkouts and as presented, the second phase ntains 14 lots. As Paul mentioned, one less than the original phase Plann April 2 wit desig of th. lots conve conce' who h, Assoc into state cours~ two n~ 1, thl for al proje~ ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 8 an average lot size of 24,670 square feet. Of the 14 lots, we've ed via the layout, the physical layout and also the grading, that 10 ~se 14 lots will accommodate a walkout at the lower level. Two of the ;ill accommodate a side lookout and 2 of them will require perhaps ttional basement type construction. In addition to the market ns, the new plan also reflects the concerns of the existing residents ve constructed homes in Phase 1. The Kurvers Point Homeowners ,ation who you've been introduced to this evening, has provided input his planning process for Phase 2. Their primary concerns, as they've here this evening, revolve around safety and traffic issues. Of correspondingly the local road system has been changed to establish w cul-de-sacs to I guess address those issues. Consistent with Phase 2nd Addition of Kurvers Point is being presented without any need y variances or modifications from the minimum zoning standards. The :t continues to vastly exceed all minimum zoning criteria in pursuit of crw, ation of a high amenity, high quality residential neighborhood. The staff!has prepared a very detailed and extensive report concerning all aspecl.s of this development. And I don't want to sit here and review and go ov~,r every one of them. Assuming and presuming that we can convince you to re.:ommend approval, the Kurvers are prepared to meet all the 17 items that .re listed as conditions. We have some clarifications that we'd like to ps' haps discuss with staff but they're of a minor nature on only one of these things. What I'd like to do is spend a few minutes to address some of th~ specifics that I mentioned earlier regarding market and development exper ence gained from the past 4 years to perhaps help you better under~ tand that this proposal before you tonight and the factors needed to keep his a high quality neighborhood. Firstly the lots needed to be at least 10 feet wider at the setback line than originally proposed. With the 1st A, dition...feedback from builders and developers who wanted to buy lots here eeded just simply more space. Hence the reduction that you're seeing in th s plan from 15 lots to 14 lots as we've expanded things out. Secon4 ly, it has become extremely apparent from feedback from the homeol nets association, also from builders and perspective customers, that- it's ~ xtremely important to screen the neighborhood from TH 101 for both traff, c noise and for a visual impacts. To that extent, the first phase conta, ns a berm running full length of the east side of the subdivision. As paJt of this proposal, we ate proposing a berm similar to that on this phase along the east side and at such heights that we can control the visual impacts to those homes that would be built adjoining TH 101 and to at le.~st attenuate some of the noise and the traffic that would be going by and t¢ hopefully deflect some of that noise up into the sky. Thirdly, or I wante¢ to dwell on that for a little bit longer. By creating another inter~ection with TH 101, a berm or it would require an opening in this berm cf maybe 60 to 70 feet in width making sure that we make sight distance and setback requirements and that virtually would render the screering and the effects of both the noise and the visual impacts, well it would reduce it significantly for most of the homes that would be built in that area. The third thing I'd like to mention, and the Kurvers Point Homeo~ nets Association I think spoke generally and very specifically to their concerns over the traffic safety issue. And there is studies that have sen done that have shown that cul-de-sac neighborhoods are generally safer 3otb in traffic and for children who tend to run out into the street and play and this sort of thing. Fourthly, a majority of the buiders · Plann Apr i 1 conta, lots this would lake into Addit, impac~ that here appro about list in ju cul-d, anoth, Proje~ appro~ just consi done some falli acces, this it be comes aroun( a ny q~ you. · E mm i n: Frank the d, it who b, Emm i n~ Erhar' favor Emmin~ I don' Erharl unanill Mar k ~. Erhart much ¢ ing Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 9 :ting the Kurvers for lots are looking for walkout lots and cul-de-sac .n which to build and it's really their customers who are demanding ;ype of lot. And as I stated earlier, 10 of the 14 lots proposed provide for a walkout situation. The majority of them either are .ors or would be on a cul-de-sac. And then lastly, which Paul entered .he testimony here was a letter from the Sosin's. At the time the ,on was approved, there were some serious concerns over the traffic of a second access on the south side there. And this plan addresses lso by not preparing it. The Kurvers Point 2nd Addition as presented his evening is consistent with other developments that have been ,ed by the City, especially I guess the major issue we're talking is cul-de-sac length. I guess this concludes my remarks. We have a ,f cul-de-sacs that I can show you. Or I shouldn't say show you but :t looking at 2 or 3 that just north of here on Choctaw Circle is a ,-sac of 1,650 feet long with 45 lots on it. And in Fox Chase, ,r almost 50 lots on almost a 2,000 foot long cul-de-sac street. :ts recently, well not necessarily recently approved but have been 'ed by the City and I have perhaps 6-7 more that I've Just researched ecently. Again, making an appeal that your action and your )eration of this issue should be weighed against perhaps what has been n other locations. Other cities. To my knowledge, in talking with ,f the Public Safety people here in town, that the problems of a tree ~g across the road or a watermain breaking or something blocking , that would prevent the emergency vehicle from reaching a home in are really hasn't been an issue in any location in the city. Whether a cul-de-sac or even on a thru street where the emergency vehicle in this location, finds they can't make it and has to travel back a different direction to get to a location so. I guess if you have estions of us, we'd be glad to spend some time and answer them for Thank you. s: Thank you. Now is there anybody else? Kurvers: Just real short. My name is Frank Kurvers and I'm one of velopers. I think a development should do three things. Number one, uld be good to the city. Number two, it should be good to the people y the lots. And number three, it should be good for the developer. s: Sounds fair. , moved, Ahrens seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. s: I don't think anybody's too upset about going from 15 to 14 lots. t suppose we need to spend a lot of time on that issue. Tim? : I assume that the 20 members or that the opinion of this is our? enn: Yes. : I guess in light of that fact and the fact that this is pretty onsistent with other cul-de-sacs between Choctaw Circle and others in Plann April the c, plan. of vi~ anymo~ on th~ the 1 there There one u was 4 Resid, Erhart chang stree' It lo¢ out at Emmin( Conra( gradi do yo Kraus: origi happe Scott inter: 3 fee' most. Conra( it a driver be ope ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 10 ty, I guess I don't see, I don't have a problem with the revised I think it would quite frankly, as much as from a planning's point ,w, I understand staff's view on this. It's not a new development 'e. We have to live with the 20 people on there and they're unanimous ,ir opinion that they would want it changed. I don't think probably . new people are going to have any different opinion. In driving down the density is, quite frankly I was surprised at how low it is. just isn't that many houses on there. When you compare that to the Choctaw Circle, I counted 43 but I think someone had mentioned it houses there and this one will have, I believe a total of 34. nt: 41. : 41 on this one? Well even with that, I would be in favor of ng the plan to the cul-de-sac and not pursuing any of the other thru proposals· I have no other questions on any of the other issues. ks like a very good development. It's an extension of what started a very nice development. s: 0 kay. Ladd? : As we grade, if we were to follow through the original design, g of TH 101 would change. How much would we have to take off? Paul, know in terms of what grade difference? : Mr. Conrad, we're not sure actually. This was a proposal tha't was ally made by the applicant's engineer and we're wondering if he s to have that information. Harri: I do. To create the proper sight distance at the ection approved would have required TH 101 to come down approximately · Three feet for 150-200 feet kind of variable. Three at the : It wouldn't change the berming a great deal then. It might change ittle bit the necessity to screen a neighborhood. By taking, as I've through there so many times, a big concern that I would have would ning up the neighborhood to the community to TH lOl. I think it's really important that it's screened and that there be a berm there. The 3 feet ! guess doesn't bother me a great deal. I think it's not that significant and I think the neighborhood would still be able to be bermed and s~ reened significantly. I think it was clear what their original desigl was and I guess I'm not overly concerned. I hear the neighborhood talkirg about safety concerns but I think there are ways to deal with that. ObvioL~sly every additional car in the neighborhood is probably, that shoulc~l 't be there, is probably one too many but just a couple things. Pau 1 , simply becaus really to hau and I hand, ,ou ruled out an access that would only be in an emergency access because of maintenance. I'm having trouble with this one myself on the one hand I really like the neighborhood having one access. I like that from a small community standpoint. It's the way I'd want ~ it. The way I'd want to live. It builds a community in there struggled to figure out a solution to make that happen. On the other ~e've always been committed to when we have opportunity on the Plann Apr i 1 Plann the o and a, vehic have suppo that. aoces somet block, vehic my we're belie~ There that' with the s servi have that was a their and I Kraus,, think ,rig Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 11 ng Commission and City Council to make things as safe as possible. On ~e hand we're talking, the neighbors are talking safety from traffic :cidents. The other side of it is, in an emergency, an emergency e getting to a burning house. Getting to a tornado victim. Tornadoes ~one through this area. It's one of those things that we've always ted if we had our, if we could. And it's tough to put a value on I think the neighbors don't think anything's going to happen and one is not a big deal. I think our public safety department might say ~ing different and may have some experiences where one access is d and a second one is open and the fire trucks, the emergency es, the ambulance gets to a house when there is an emergency. That's blem. I have two solutions. One, if somebody convinced me that pretty safe in this I ,600 foot cul-de-sac. That's what I want to e. On the other hand, I keep looking for a solution where we have a d access in case of an emergency. We have an opportunity to do that. is the one where there is a way to make that happen if we feel that significant. So I guess the bottom line for me is I'm struggling t because I want to make that a small neighborhood and I don't like cond access yet I feel real responsible for providing emergency e vehicles a secondary access to that location. It is possible to hat happen now. I believe in some of the other longer cul-de-sacs e've allowed in the city, it wasn't easy to make happen. In fact, it most impossible to make happen and therefore we gave the developer right to develop the property. In this case it's easy to make happen m struggling with that. Paul, you were going to say something? : Well a couple things. First of all, nobody should be, well I everybody needs to come to grips with the fact that traffic on TH 101 is building. It's beyond our control. It's an issue that confronts a StateSagency and two counties and a number of municipalities and we're tryin~ to get the ball going for people to look at what needs to be done on TH 10~. It's a real tough issue. But I think we have to really come to an under,~ tanding that traffic is going to be building there and I'd hate to have o be the one to say it and it's not a city road, but like it or not, it's oing to have to be a 4 lane road at some point. I think you're all aware of the fact, in fact some of you said you're from Eden Prairie, that Town kine Road is supposed to be a 4 lane road up to the Minnetonka/ Chanh~ssen line. That is going to introduce a lot more traffic out here. In fac t, one of the reasons they're building that road is they're blaming it on development in Chanhassen. Curiously enough. 8ut a fundamental point here is that we would never propose that a loop street go through if we th( ught this was a shortcut to someplace. We don't do that to resid~ ntial neighborhoods. If this cut 30 seconds off the trip to downtown or if this was a shortcut to a lake access, a legitimate public landing, whate% st, we would never propose that a loop street be done. That just goes against all good professional judgment and wisdom. The fact is that we hays a loop street here that is a much longer curvalinear route than TH 101 is. I can understand how people blunder into this neighborhood once. I can ur~erstand people looking at the lake or looking at the very nice homes that are in there. I mean my wife and I do that on weekends ourselves. 8ut thsre's absolutely no reason for anybody to transit this neighborhood more than once. It just simple doesn't make any, it doesn't fit the conversional wisdom as it applies to traffic management. Nobody would Plann April choos~ Nobod direc peop1 occas can s circu~ if in way. aione E mm int Kraus~ day. this i to pa~ ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 12 , unless they're looking for a Sunday drive or something I suppose. chooses to go the longer, more curvali'near route when there's a route to the same place. We understand there's a question about trying to shoot across TH 101 and I'm sure that happens onally. It's a very tough intersection. I don't know what more we .y about that. 3ust to clarify that, we would never, under any ,stances, recommend a thru street through a residential neighborhood fact it would introduce non-area trips in any kind of a significant One thing also has to be recognized here is that this development is going to generate 400 trips a day. The second? · No, the entirety of this plat is going to generate 400 trips a 'fhat's nobody from Eden Prairie. Nobody from anyplace else· That's 'evelopment. Wtth one curb cut, every one of those 400 trips is going s by those homes at that entrance. With two curb cuts, you share the load ~nd I think that's a fairly reasonable proposition in terms of safety. In ad$ition, most of the homes in there are going to be on cul-de-sacs wheth, r this is a looped road or not. You know most of the homes are desig' ed to front onto cul-de-sacs. I was in there today, I think there's 5 or , 5 now that may not. There's some more lots that will be developed that on't but again, they're going to have a cul-de-sac irregardless. There was a point raised that there are other cul-de-sacs of equal length or lo, ger. Well, that's certainly true. Sometimes it was because, in 20/20 hindsight it wasn't a great decision. Sometimes it was because of envir~ nmental issues or topography. There simply was no alternative. But there are several examples immediately north of this subdivision where there is a thru street connection and I think it's the Colonial Grove and Fox H~ llow are both served in a similar situation by looped streets. So again I mean, we do understand where the residents are coming from and I think the PIanning Commission and most members of the CounciI are famiiiar with he fact that this is not an uncommon issue. And I don't mean to dimin sh it because it's not uncommon but this kind of thing happens a iot. Where peopIe are brought into a neighborhood either because they're not inforl sd or they don't want to beIieve it's going to be extended or whate~ er, that they oppose the second phase addition. Now I think you're aware that since it crops up so much, wherever thts happens from now on, what e've been doing is we've been requiring notices to be pIaced in the chain of titIe that say that this is going to be extended and we've been puttirg up barricades at the end of the street with a sign on it that says this street is to be extended so there's no way anybody could say that they were r3t aware or the realtor didn't tell them or anything else. This pre- dated Again, · CiTCUE Conrac recomr~ think there have i neighb this policy and I think this is an unfortunate consequence of it. I just wanted to clarify though that we would never, under any stances, run a thru trip through a residential neighborhood. And I hear what you're saying Paul. I think you're making your ndations by real sound planning background. My bottom line is, I it's a better community without that second access. I don't care if ~re 2 or 3 cul-de-sacs inbetween. The better community if we didn't there. The second access. But I am struggling. I hear what the >rs are saying. I'm not persuaded as much as I, by their concerns, Plann:ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 13 as whit I am for making it a better neighborhood. That in my mind is not havin! that second access. However, however, I feel accountable for provi this, that would that ' Emmin come Conra, Commi Erhar 4 hou lng a secondary emergency access. That's why if I were designing that second loop towards the south or the street, I would have made cul-de-sac right very close to TH 101 with an emergency road that t to TH 101. If I were the designer. I'm not the designer and not what's been presented tonight but that's what I would have done. : Now, you've defined the issue for us. Can you tell us how you own on this issue? The issues you've defined? : I'm waiting to be persuaded by the rest of the Planning sion. : Steve, I have a question. Is there anybody here like of the first es on Kurvers Point Road? Have a house right on Kurvers Point Road? Alex ~agenaar: I'm the first on Willow View Cove. Barbara 3acoby: I'm the first house on Kurvers Point Road. Erhar : And the idea that you're going to actually have more traffic in front of your house from the local people, the people who live in Kurvers Point Road, if it doesn't go through doesn't bother you? Bar a 3acoby: I don't understand. Erhar : Because if it goes through, the people, more than likely the peopl living in the south half of the development are going to go out the south exit. Barbala Jacoby: I'm Barbara Jacoby at 7251Kurvers Point Road. We have been here since November so as far as the traffic goes, I'm not that sure. But can see that if it does open, people coming from Valley View who live as it goes to the south, Kurvers Point goes to the south, all those people that ire there are 3ust going to cut across TH 101 from Valley View to Kurve' s Point and go in front of my house to get to the ones, the other house:. Do you follow me? Conra, : But what he is saying is, in the new proposal. No, if it's all a cul-de-sac and only one entrance by your house, all 42 homeowners are going to go by your house every day 3 times, or whatever the average is. Barbala 3acoby: Okay, and we could get that same thing. Conra, : And whereas if you had a second cul-de-sac, a second entry, you're going to split half of those 40 homeowners. 20 will go one way, 20 will go the o' her way. Barbal a Jacoby: I think you're more likely to get them crossing from Valle' View and coming right on by if they live on what would be, unless they' e coming up TH 5. You know, anyway. Plann April Alex move more indiv yOU ' r ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 14 agenaar: Can I speak in regards to this? The premise here is if you he dead end sign, which is now located there, you're going to have raffic coming through. The situation right now is when these duals see this dead end sign that's in place there...actually do turn by the Willow View Cove intersection... If that sign's removed, going to have a large increase in thru traffic coming through there. Emmin: s: Well, I tell you we're getting a little loose here. We closed the p{ lic hearing and I think what we're going to do is go through and finis with the comments from up here and then maybe give you another shot with ick things. So we'll just continue up here for now. Jeff? of tr ~they like not Farms : My comments on this are pretty much the same. I guess I 'ma littl, at a loss for words between the difference of opinion of public safer' . Public safety here or concern for your public safety and accessing your in case there is an emergency. If somebody has a heart attack or wh , there's a disaster and you're concerned about your children. Sere' professionals who came up here and talked about concern for your publi safety of your children. It sort of seems to be a trade off between pti . Your concern about the traffic that comes through there, which I'm quite convinced that these people are interested in putting their boats n. It seems like they're interested in finding lake access which is I a little farther to the south. The days are long gone in the lake commu ties around here where you can put your boat in inbetween a couple · Somebody's property or land inbetween. And other than if out looking at nice homes, which this community certainly looks 'd be worth driving through just to look at the homes. I'm still I guess convinced that unless there has been problems on other cu communities that are up on TH 101, that this is going to be a major for public safety. I can understand the concern but I guess 'd be more inclined to look at the neighborhood and what their b, is of the use of their property. I'm not sure that putting that seco opening on there is really going to change anything. I don't think it's lng to add to the traffic really, of your property. 8ut I don't think the other hand it's going to help people driving through that are lost are coming on there from Valley View Road. They're still going to be the e and I agree with staff that I don't think people are going to drive .brough there simple because there's another opening on the other side. It seems these people are lost or out there viewing your homes. They t n around and drive right back through the neighborhood again. If there an opening there, they would drive out of your neighborhood but I can't where there's any time saved or any justification to say that putti that through there would increase that traffic· And I'm not sure what Id be done to decrease it no matter what option is gone with here. It that it's either confusion or sight seeing. I'm still, I guess in this [tuation I'd defer to the homeowners. I don't see where there's any, there other cul-de-sac communities here that, unless we've experienced simi problems, I guess I would be inclined to approve it. Emmin: : Alright. Joan? Ahrens ! guess I'm a little surprised at some of the comments made by the commis, loners because since I've been on the Planning Commission, every Planning Commission Nesting April 17, 1991 - Page 15 long cul-de-sac that's come up for discussion has been turned down. The most ~ecent one was when, just west of Galpin Lake Blvd.. I don't even rememl er the name of the street but there was going to be a cul-de-sac develc ~ed over there. Kraus., : It wasn't Tanadoona? Emmin.~ s: No. I think she's thinking of where we eventually connected back up to Pleasant View? Conrac : Troendle. Emmin s: Yeah. The Troendle Addition. Ahren.~: No. This was over by Minnetonka Intermediate School. Back up into there. Krauss: I think it's the one from Tanadoona. Ahrens: Yeah. And most of the long, all of them. Ail of the ones we talke¢ about since I've been on the Planning Commission we've been very careful in evaluating that the safety issues and we've discouraged devel~lpers from pursuing long cul-de-sacs. We've basically sent them back to r~aw their plans so I'm kind of surprised at the willingness to accept a 1, or however long it is, cul-de-sac in this situation. kind cf like the idea of the no lake access signs. If that's the problem. I'm nc t sure that's the problem. I don't think anybody's really sure. I mean ~t's a public road. People have the right to drive down a public road. I guess I'm really not persuaded that having a'thru street is going to create a big safety problem. I think that when there are emergency calls, we're not talking about one fire engine or one ambulance. We're talkirg about 3 and 4 large vehicles going down a road. And if there's not enoug~ room, it can be a big problem. I guess I'm persuaded by the staff recomnsndation and I'm going to go along with it. Emmin~ ~: Okay. As I remember this proposal when it came in front of us origi slly, one of the, I remember several issues from it but getting that hill c Jr down on TH 101 was one of the big issues that we ali saw. When you talk about public safety issues, getting rid of that. hill on TH espec~slly at the developer's cost rather than our own, was something that reall~ appealed to us. And I reread the Minutes from the City Council meeting and they all were very surprised that the developer was willing to do that but very happy about it. And the same sentiment was expressed in the letter that we got from the $osin's. It sure would be nice to see that hill c Jt down for everybody's safety, particularly the people that live out near t mere. But I have, I really am kind of torn by this. I'm tending to come c~t in favor of the staff recommendation. I guess I don't feel, don't ~hink that the traffic, I hope it's not. I don't think the traffic, the thru traffic is going to be the problem for you that you're afraid it is going to be. But that's not based on anything except my own opinion as a guess. I think two accesses will actually have an affect of decreasing traffi: for the people who live close to the entrance, if it has any affect at all As far as there being other cul-de-sacs that are long. To the Plann ng Commission Meeting April i7, 1991 - Page 16 exten' that there weren't reasons that we wound up having to do it when we didn' want to. We certainly don't have to repeat that kind of a mistake. We've had information in the past. I know it's been the general wisdom here n the, at the Planning Commission level at least, that we want to disco rage long cul-de-sacs for safety reasons and that doesn't come from us because we're not people trained in that. That comes from people on City ~taff who have told us that. $o we have pretty consistently refused to do them except where there was no choice. But it's hard to say, with the e~tire neighborhood in here, except of course people who will be living in su ivision 2. With the entire neighborhood of one mind that they'd like Jt left the way it is. It's hard to say we're going to force this on you w~ n you don't want it. And I kind of agree with Ladd and I think I agree ith the neighbors. I think if I were living in there, I think I'd want ~ left as a cul-de-sac but that's not what you bought. It's what you think, ! think what a lot of you thought you bought but it's not what you bought because the plan always existed that connected that road back out to TH 101. So when, well I have a question. Paul, when ! read the conditions of th,~ first approval. They're on page 118 of the City Council meeting on July ; , 1987. Those conditions that the City Council attached at that time ied to the entire subdivision, not just phase 1. Would that be ri Or would those just be to phase 17 Or first addition or whatever. Krau= I think, I would be guessing at this point Mr. Chairman but it looks is though 18 should apply uniformily. Emmin., : That's the one that caught my eye. And when I saw that one, becau~ like There don't whole that Frank checkE there's a lot of trees between the upper part of this that looks had been farmed and then on that slope that goes down to the lake. a lot of trees in there and where I see them putting houses, I · Can you tell me whether or not these conditions apply to the hing? The plan stamped "Received June 4, 1987" but I don't know if Id be the whole. rvers: I think I can answer that question because...DNR had the property out and they didn't have any concerns. Emmin.. : I don't think they did their Job. You're supposed to have a t management plan. Is there no plan? Frank : There isn't any plan as far as the DNR is concerned. Kr To the best of my knowledge when somebody comes in for a building permi in there is we require that they give us a tree preservation, tree cutti plan with the house plan. Then we walk with the site with him and handl it that way. Emmin! : Okay. Kraus.s~ But your question as to does 16 apply. Block 3 was in the 2nd - AdditiOn. So the answer is yes. It was intended to. Paul K~rvers: I think those Blocks are incorrect. Block 3 is actually in the ls Addition. At least in the plans that I have. Plan~ April KraUSl Paul i Emmint of ne~ what ~ imposl Krausl Emm i n. at th. lake Witho, Frank Emmi n! if I there Frank engin~ O Emmi n~ much Frank Emm i n~ Paul ng Commission HeeLing 17, 1991 - Page 17 : Well these are the plans dated the date that was cited. urvers: Well there was a mistake made somewhere along the... Is: My concern here Paul is that if there were, we've got a whole set conditions here in what we're looking at tonight and I don't know to xtent they can...or fail to include conditions that were aiready ,d or if we care. Timber management plan seemed important to me. : I think that would be worthy one to carry forward. s: Okay. And then the only other question I had is when I was out property this morning, it looked to me. The lots that go along the ere, at least number I and 2, can those be built without filling? t fill in there? Kurvers: Which lots are you talking about? s: Lots i and 2. I and 2 that are closest to the, well here. Maybe oint. There you go. There seemed to be kind of a steep bank along and maybe. Kurvers: I think as far as looking at the elevations, the ers... s: Yeah. It doesn't look like much, the drop off doesn't seem to be n paper but boy, when I looked at it. It looked pretty steep. Kurvers: You mean Lots I and 2? s: Yeah. urvers: There is some drop there. I think based on the elevations that are proposed there...two lots. Scott qarri: There will be a requirement on all of the lake lots because just t~ the physical fitting of the road, Kurvers Point Blvd...east lots and tbs west lots. There will be a down driveway that will have to be made off of Kurvers Point Road to access most of the lake lots. Emmin9 Scott and t~ home t won't Emming Scott stuff grade level Okay. So they'll be built down on that lower level? ~arri: Exactly. Most likely. And because of the nature of the lot ~ topography, you're not going to find anything but a custom designed > fit the trees and the grades and things out there. Otherwise it Fit. Then you'll virtually have to clear cut the whole thing. : But it's not so low down there that it has to be filled? arri: Well portions may. In getting access to the driveway and ind right in front of a home but how the house will fit in to the , they can simply be notched into the hillside there so the walkout' ~t the low level will fit with the existing ground there. Plann April Emm i n right the, all k there there Isai. this that ' Alex gentl the s happe' TH that the a stage ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 18 s: Well, there's a lot of trees in there. The fellow that lives on the end there came out and talked to me and was telling me about .hat there are owls nesting in the big dead tree that's in there and nde of nice things going on. I would think that having the DNR out to look at that and making sure we preserve what we can of what's would be an important and valuable thing to do. So anyway· Alright that after we made our comments we'd give folks another round. So oesn't go all night, let's get real focused and try to say stuff new if you will. If you want to come up and add something. agenaar: I just have a quick question and it was sponsored by the man's comment about TH 101 being improved and widened to 4 lane and raight thru road and so forth. If I understand that right, when that s what they're going to want to do is minimize the access points to · And in fact we may be in a situation 4 years down the road when appens or whenever. I don't know. I 'm just picking a number out of r, that we may have to close one of these access points at that So then we have an access point with the berms and all the houses have becau,, impro~ access points trade count~ dange~ of th~ trade be ing Emmi n! acces,, like Keen built and they're in place and we have one too many access points e it's a State thru highway. And anytime they go through ements, we see that going on on TH 5 now, they want to minimize points and bring all the access' to a relatively small number of · So that's just a question. And then the other comment in this off in terms of safety. There's a person being killed in this / every 10 minutes in a car crash. Now that's not to minimize the s of tornadoes· The risk of heart disease and heart attacks and all other health problems that we have as society, but if there's a off, after studying this area for over 10 years, the risk of kids killed on their bikes rates pretty high in my standard. Thank you. s: There's no doubt about that and your comment about decreasing points onto TH 101 is well taken. And your 4 years is probably more ~0 years· The only reason I say that is because it's TH 101 and that's a road that anybody who's got even any suggestion that they might be resporsible for that road quickly passes it off to somebody else. Nobody wants it. It's like a hot potato. Nobody wants it. Is there anybody else that ~ ~nts to say anything? Mel K~ rvers: I want to comment one more time. When we talked about these cars ¢>ming in from Valley View. I mean we see them. It's not something that ~s're picking out of the air. We do see them and they do come in there. There's some real fast people that come in there and I think they'rD irritated because they got in there and they don't know what to do so the, turn around and they just really wheel. And if they come through' there, you know like you were stating, someone was stating that if there was an>ther exit, that we would only have half the people going this way and half would go that way. I don't think we can predetermine which way those~eople are going to go. If a road was put in and say it was a right-~n/right-out, it would have to be the people going to Chanhassen. Not to Valley View Road. Not to TH 101. Not to 494 going that way so I don't think ~e can state that fact that we're going to split them. And person lly, I've lived there all my life and I'm probably an old fashion guy bu I'm going to go where I can see the best way. Both directions. So Plann April when lower dista there made in th did p~ done quest go out Emm i n, Mai Ki not w~ Emmi n~ there done Mel K, seems Valle come their Emmin~ Mel K,. where matte¥ I thoL bettel ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 19 make a turn, that I can see a car coming. Also, when we agreed to that hill, we agreed to lower it to get sight distance. Now sight )ce, you take 3 feet off of that hill and you've still got a hill We did not agree to make it a flat road which there was a statement .hat oh, it would be really nice to have a flat road. Well we're not business to be lowering the roads to make it a flat road. And we t a lot of thought in this bare. I mean it wasn't something that's .vernight. It's 4 years and I also would like to address your on on trees. When we designed the project, we made roads. You can there and look. We routed them around trees. s: I noticed it. rvers. And we also tell the people when they're building that we do nt to see any more trees taken down. s: The guy I talked to in your subdivision, he lives out on the end he said, he told me that you were very fussy about how things were nd it's a beautiful subdivision. Everybody thinks so. I think. rvers: 8ut I don't think that people are really realizing what we eing about the cars coming across. I guess I didn't either except it to be that people, when they come across or stop at that stop sign on View Road, they think that they can jump across much faster than to ut and make that turn to the left. I don't know if it's just in head or what but they do come across. s: Even with the dead end sign? rvers: With the dead end sign. And if you open that up, those cars are they going to go? The dead end sign is gone. The fact of the is, I was thinking of asking the City to put a dead end, no outlet. ;ht maybe they couldn't read dead end. Maybe no outlet would be because I've seen that in some places. But I really want to push this just, there Emminl if th, appare know proble keep havin~ think Well Mel KL sayin! still and go what t r ~al strong that there are these cars coming in there. I mean people when you say that you've got Valley View Road which is funneling in mnd if you open that up, they're going to come through. s: You and I just disagree on that. I don't see that the fact that, come across with the dead end sign there, they don't care ntly whether there's an opening at the other end or not so I don't qy having that opening is going to make a difference. That's a I've got with this. Now I think you need some help out-there to qe Valley View traffic out of your neighborhood but I don't think not the other access is the thing that's going to do it for you. I ~ou need help of some other kind. I don't know what it is but maybe. ~it a minute, are you done? vets: No, I just wanted to make one more comment on what you were and that is, that the people do see this dead end sign and they :oma across so they can turn around at Willow View and make a U turn back out. You're not going to stop those people. They know exactly ~ey're doing. Plan ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 20 Emmin s: Oh, you mean they want to do that? Mel KI rvers: Well sure because they can come across faster than they can make turn. Emmin s: Okay. So they're coming back and then taking a right and going south on TH 1017 Mel Kllrvers: Right. Emmim~s: Oh, I think you ought to shoot those folks. Somebody ought to stand out there with a gun. Mark .enn: The point you're missing from earlier is that since the dead end s gn has been up, the incidence of this has been cut in about half. Take he dead end sign away and we're going right back the wrong way again. Emmin s: I'm just wondering if we couldn't just leave it up there. I don't see anything wrong with lying. Have you given your name before? Ken W~ Emm i n! Ken W~ I wanl our T~ stenberg: No I have not. s: Do it now. nberg: My name is Ken Westenberg and I live in Willow View Cove. to address one point that, or a question that was stated to one of idents about whether she'd rather have all the residents coming past her h( or half of them coming past her home with the presumption the other half would go the other way. I lived in a project of 65 homes prior to lng to where I now live. I lived next to, or I was the second house from exit. We had everybody coming past my home. We had some problems but w4 knew who those people were. We dealt with it and we stopped it and it no onger became a problem. When you have all these people coming from Valle View, we have no idea who they are. We have no way of tracing them down. We cannot stop the way they drive. That is a big key factor. The seco thing you have to understand is, the people that are shooting across TH 10 and turning around are frustrated and angry. They have sat behind 2 or 3 trying to make a left turn. When they pull over to the right, shoot kids about all talki by t , they are driving very eradically and dangerously. We have lng picked up 20 feet from that point every morning and you talk safety factors. You talk about tornadoes and heart attacks and those are 1, 2, 3 occurences in lO years, if ever. What we're ;bout is a danger every single morning of many, many lives standing bus stops. Emmim : Didn't the school district also change the bus stop for you peop That's what this fellow I was talking to out there today said they got t school district to come out and they saw how dangerous it was on TH 101 a' prior to that time the bus wasn't coming down your street but now it do, ? Resident: It comes down Kurver$ Point. Piano April Emm i n cars. Denni~ right schoo dangel You t~ much Ken W leavi peopl to ma Emmin Frank Valle' carri, resid, many, Well, of ro~ major Emmi n~ Frank in th4 would Emmim Kraus~ Emmi n,( Conra( you t~ Frank Conrac Frank Conrac it, cc short Frank wa 1 kou ~ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 21 ~s: Yeah· And that was done because the school district watched the Kopfmann: It stops at Kurvers Point Road and Willow View which is there· I mean it's what, like 30 feet? My kids go to Eden Prairie .s and Eden Prairie schools won't even stop on TH 101...because of the · I mean the intersection, the danger is going across Valley View. lk to Eden Prairie about their sight lines on their side, they're ore hazardous than we have on the Chanhassen side. ,stenberg: I'm sure you were jesting perhaps but when you said ig the dead end sign up, I mean how long are we going to fool these · The first time they try it and find out it's open, they're going e a regular habit of it every single morning· That's human nature. ~s: Anybody else? Kurvers: I've got just one comment. It seems that your comment that View Road and Kurvers Point Road seem to be the same street and it s the same amount of traffic. Well I guess Kurvers Point Road is a ntial street. Valley View Road is a collector street which collects many vehicles. It seems like staff says well they're the same. I'd have to disagree. They're not the same. They're different types ds. I mean there's lateral roads. There's collector roads. There's roads and there is a difference. s: I didn't get that out of what staff said. Kurvers: But staff stated that it's no different than any other road city of Chanhassen. Well, I'd have to disagree. I think you people have to disagree too. s: Yeah. You don't disagree with what he's saying do you? : No. I wonder where the implications..· No, I didn't get that. Okay. : One other question. Frank, maybe you can answer this. Why didn't rn this into a cul-de-sac? <urvers: ··.that plan that you have before you is a cul-de-sac· With an emergency access? :urvers: Why? Have the cul-de-sac out here. I guess another way for me to put Id you put a cul-de-sac in there and make it a viable project with a ~mergency access? (urvers: As far as the lot configurations and the changes to and the berming and the fact that we lost one lot to do that, I'd Plann ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 22 have o say it would certainly change the appearance to do that...than what you s e before you. Does that answer your question? Conra< : Tell me a little bit more. There's more difference because why? Are y( losing property or another lot by doing that? Frank : Forget the property. This plan that you see up there, we're losing a lot so we're making frontages which got...and we're moving back TH 101 which we have to berm to keep it quiet. So all of these dit nt configurations were put into the scheme to make it, which we feel, even a better plan than the original one. It wasn't just an arb decision. Conra(: No, I can see why that would be desireable but if you did move that ac closer to TH 101 with an emergency access, is that just not a vi e alternative in your mind? Frank vets: You have to look at the total. You know that land are there if you look at it, it's very narrow so in that, if we were on the other of the project, we'd have more room. We have less room to make good sellable lots. We need an area to build on and to change it, you ~ess frontage. It Just won't fit the homes of the type of homes that e built. All those shifts make each lot, it makes the berm the sound Tier, all these things were taken into consideration. Paul do t vets: We also had to match the elevation of TH 101. In order to ... Emmin~ road. Conrac to tel of t prey' : You'd have to if you put a road out too. If you connect the Same thing. It looked to me, and again when you visually look at it, it's hard where things are. It looked like it was a pretty flat. The crest hill to the north is minimized as you get to where this, well the access point was I thought. In other words, I thought this was flat. Frank vets: It's flat but it's low elevation from the State Highway. Paul 101 vets: It actually goes down I would estimate from the edge of TH to the property, it drops about 16 feet. Mel have confi vets: From the perspective of building a cul-de-sac, you want to mensions to use that cul-de-sac also. So in effect what you're ~g of could be accomplished but it certainly wouldn't help any lot ation. It would definitely disturb what.ever you would try to ish. Conr Nell I'm trying to accomplish an emergency access. I'm trying to give e 41 homes the privacy and whatever with a second access that's not n ~her than to the fire trucks and the ambulances. That's all I'm tryin_lto figure out how to do. Nothing more. And you're telling me it doesn' , my solution doesn't work for you and I'm just struggling with Apr i 1 overt that every Most troub feel where fact 1,000 terms indust about ha nd, that they ' That ' years Br co k,~ Emmin~ where thing baselt place .ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 23 ding something that I've been pretty consistent on for many years and ,as been, in all cases we've tried to find an emergency access for smaller community within Chanhassen. Sometimes we couldn't do it. f the times we were able to do it. I guess as much as I'm having e, as much as I'd like to make this a community all by itself, I just hat we've had so much history of providing. You know it's a case we have been told by staff and we have tried for so many years. In e used to have a 500 foot cul-de-sac limit and then we went up to a I'm not sure what's right and I guess we have to listen to staff in of what they believe is standard in not only the community but in the ry and the safety of citizens. I hear what the citizens are saying the safety and we have to address that issue too but on the other we have to address the issue of emergency access. I have to believe taff when they tell us you need a secondary access to something, e not making that up. They're not trying to get people angry. pretty much the way Chanhassen has tried to develop over all these Myhran: Is this still an open forum? s: Yeah. I guess I want to make a comment first. Particularly this isn't coming in new this way. I mean this isn't the way the was proposed. It was proposed to be hooked back up. That's our ne and really you're asking us to change something that's already in that we're pretty much happy with. It seems to me what Ladd is saying, it's something I could get behind because it seems to satisfy everybody's concerns. It would turn that, there would still be a cul-de-sac at the end. It would be closer to the highway and I understand it screws up the lot configuration but it gives the residents what they want ecause they've got the cul-de-sac and it gives the city what it wants becau, e there'd a way for emergency vehicles to get in at that end. So it seems like a real reasonable solution not being proposed to us I guess so we do 't have it here to vote on but. Brook Myhran: Let me give just two observations. Emmin~s: Did you give your name before? Brook~ Myhran: No, sorry. Brooks Myhran at 60 Twin Maple Lane. Two observations. One, the thrust of the argument here hinges on public safety, or at ~east much of it does. Our perspective is that our children in pattie point it se~ Chanh~ made t with t be rea from ~ confi¢ can't public decis~ ular and the neighborhood in general is better served by one access Your argument is that public safety is better served by two. Well ms to me we are the public in question. This affects nobody else in ssen or anywhere else in the world for that matter and we all have he trade off in our own minds that the safety from natural disaster No accesses is not sufficient to offset the risk that we all feel to 1, never mind what you think may or may not be the case, that comes ncreased traffic. And if it's my neighbor driving by there, I have ence that he'll behave reasonably than somebody else. So I think I iudge your processes but clearly the people that live there are the that you're serving and you could think of what their collective )n making has led them to argue and all new home buyers on that Plann ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 24 cul-de-sac will make that decision for themselves implicit in that home purchase. Secondly, you're trading the decision as either or. Either it goes brough or it doesn't. To me it's much more fundamental. Either the subdi ision gets built or the Kurvers may decide not to expand because it isn't economically feasible and from a pure dollars and cents point of view, if there's 14 lots going in there with 14 new homes going in, we're looki~g at 4 million dollars of assessed property values and that could easil) be $100,000.00 of property tax every year which might never materialize if what you say they have to do is inconsistent with what they say t~e market tells them to do. And who wins in that case? So to me it's quite simple. You can't deny them the right to make a profit on their propeYty. If you deny them the right to have a cul-de-sac, they may choose not t~ develop because it isn't economically viable. And we have all expre~ our opinion that we want it that way in the first place and we're the lic that you must be most concerned with, as far as I'm concerned. Emmin~ : My only comment there would be, you know we were deciding these safer'I issues, which you rightly take very personally, in your absence when we or~ inally designed this thing or when we originally approved the design for t!'is. And that included a street that came out to TH lO1. So we take those into consideration all the time. The other thing is, you've got to reco ze that we're a recommending body. The main thing here is to get the i mation out on the table. We make a recommendation to the City CouncJ . You folks vote for who's on the City Council. You don't vote for who's here so you might want to follow this issue, however it goes, you're going to want to follow it up to the City Council. Mel vets: Can I make one additional comment in regards to what Ladd had said? Emmim : Sure. You go right ahead. Mel Kl an go w prob but Conr( they' terms think pr : I'll put it this way. We're willing to look at a way to make ncy access but we're not ~oing to commit to say that that should you pointed out. We have to look at it. If that's the big hve'aWe'll take a look at that and we'll try to make some kind of a, to have them look at it. I'd like to see that. And you know, I'd also like to have staff, got to educate us and they have to ~ducate the City Council in what we're talking about when we talk about emergency access. I follow it pretty consistently here, since I've been around. It y, I've never seen the secondary access do anything. But the public safet and the fire department's not calling me up and said it did so ng so I'm not being made aware but I think we have a standard out there I think we have to know if that standard's valid or not and I think Paul .s to tell us. He's obviously telliqg us it is a valid standard and it's thing that you make up in Chanhassen. These are standards that come from ,e State and they come from other communities but I guess I feel we still a little bit more information because we struggle with ~cu all the time. We've struggled with trying to make a residential neighborhood a real neighborhood. We like that. On the other hand do, you know when we make a commitment to Kurvers Point, we're Plann ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 25 know I Emmin,; stand~ neig sayin~ hey. All things are off for the entire city of Chanhassen. We just said ou don't need a secondary access to anyplace in Chanhassen. I'm exagg rating but that's what we have to review. If we said this goes throu h, we say basically we don't have a standard anymore. That's out the windo . What should our standard be? Is it a 2,000 foot cul-de-sac? Is it no standard at all? That sort of still bothers me a little bit e I'm not sure we've changed it in the past. We follow it because I think staff has given us good information but again, I think we need to he why's'. s: And also, following up on that. That's why we don't set our rds but taking a poll of what the neighborhood wants. What the rhood wants is important but we do have standards that we do apply the board to the City. I'd like to know Mel if you're saying that, we on] have an opportunity to vote on this plan that's up there on the board ight because that's all that's been presented to us and I guess do you w~nt, would you want us to take action on that plan or do you want us to t~ le it to give you a chance to consider the other option or what do you us to do? Mel vets: We don't want it tabled. Emm i n~ Me 1 Ku Emm i n~ what L have : Okay, so you want us to vote on that plan? vets: We'll work with that plan. Alright. But then that will, if you're going to change it to has suggested and maybe others here might support, would that come back here Paul? That kind of a change? Not necessarily Mr. Chairman. If you so desired, you could put a ndation in that an emergency access be provided and that the plat be modif before it gets to Council. That option be presented to the Counc . Ahren.~ plows acces,~ Conra( Ahren,~ Wasn't the City also concerned with maintenance of that road? The ,sing able to get done the long cul-de-sac? I mean the emergency would not solve that problem right? Staff is still not for an emergency access. No, I realize that but I'm clarifying for myself, that's not going to so. 'e that problem right? Kr Correct. Emmi n,. : Okay. Mark nn: Just to comment on t'he standards. You're absolutely right. The ndards are very important. I've served on a number of committees that veloped standards on issues like this and when you're developing sta' 'ds, you're struggling with a lot of trade-offs and so forth and tryin~ to provide guidance to any local decision making bodies throughout Plann April t he c, You hi into decis inter' much. Emmin~ have? Ahren~. Prelin plans Emmin~ Kraus8 Emmin~ Conrac motior ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 26 untry and nevertheless, despite the standard they need to be applied. ye the very difficult job regularly trying to apply these and take onsideration local conditions and the specific situation of any given on. And I really appreciate how nice you've been allowing us to upt and be a little bit out of order and so forth. Thank you very s: Okay. Does someone want to make a motion on this? Does anybody : I'll move that the Planning Commission recommend denial of inary Plat #87-14 for Kurvers Point 2nd Addition as shown on the dated March 18, 1991 for the reasons stated in the staff report. s: Is there a second? Alright, time out. Can I second something? : Certainly. s: I'm going to second it. Is there any discussion on the motion? : We're denying it? I'm trying to follow the logic of what the 's going to do. The denial will just simply deny it. We will have some Emmim denyi Kraus.· wou 1 d seeki rscommendations to go along with that. Well as I understand it. What a denial here will mean is we're the changes they want to make to a plan that already exists. That's true and you can let the denial stand but I would, if you :onsider, if you did recommend denial, if you clarified what you were Emmin~: Let's go back a second. Am I right to we're denying changes to a plant~at already exists? Krau That's correct. Emmin.. : $o we're not saying he can't develop this. We're saying he's got to do the way he said he was going to. K, plat That's true. The Kurvers could come in tomorrow with the final the original proposal, yeah. Conr And that wouldn't come back to us? Kr No. Conr So this would go up to City Council. Okay. You seconded it. Emmin! : Is there any discussion? moved, Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission recommend denim of Preliminary Plat #87-14 for Kurvers Point 2nd Addition as shown on plans dated March 18, 1991 for the following reason: Plann ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 27 1. T e proposed plat deviates from the approved preliminary plat and final p for the first phase by replacing the secondary street access to TI lO1 with a cul-de-sac. Ahrem, Emmings and Conrad voted in favor, Erhart and Farmakes voted in oppos:tion. The motion carried with a vote'of 3 to 2. Emmin : Do either of the people who voted against it want to state their reaso for voting against it or do you think the record's? Erhar' : I'm okay with the record. Emmin~ Farma Conra, KTaus~ Okay. I've already spoken. I 'd just be repeating myself. Are you going to give staff direction? I should add that the applicant has the ability to take this as a denia up to the City Council and still ask for what they're asking for tonig' . Again, it might be wise for those on the prevailing side to clari what, if any modifications you might find acceptable to serve as gui to the Council. Emmin~ : I could get behind, as far as adapting. As a compromise between the o' iginal plan that was approved and the plan that they are asking for, I cou; certainly get behind Ladd's suggestion. As long as the, you know if sr owing is still a problem, I'd want to make sure that the folks that ~ndle that stuff in the city, make it clear to the City Council what those oblems are. Or any other problems that that proposal would raise. I thi that's a real nice compromise that Ladd's come up with and I don't know it can't be done. I think it could be. Conr : I would go along with what we saw if I felt comfortable there was an gency access to the site. I really like how it looks and the sense of ty it's building there. It has nothing to do with what the nei s said in terms of emergency, in terms of the traffic. I think the tr is still an issue regardless of the second access. The traffic is a pr em that the City should try to help solve. Maybe there's, the sign' got to stay up. We've got to lie on signs. I don't care what we have do but we've got to solve the problem if it's that great, and I was not e that it was that great. But I would like staff to make sure. My point s, and the reason I voted negative on this is simply I want the emer access reviewed. Developer and staff, I think that really makes a lot sense. It's consistent with my posture over the years but I'd also ke star to present City Council with the rationale for the secondary acces for emergency vehicles. And I'm not talking snowplows. I don't cate not a tr sensi make that snowplows and if they have to make 3 or 4 trips through. That's n that I have. I'm talking about emergency vehicles. Fire ambulances. Safety type of things. I think we've been real to that and our department in the past but I guess I'd like to e City Council, I think they need to know a little bit more about staff than maybe we held in common here. Plann ,rig Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 28 Emmin is: Anything else Joan? Ahren : I could go along with a plan for emergency access. However, I don't , I still don't know if we should be in a position of trying to keep ,verybody off of a public road so that nobody is able to drive through there except for the people that live there. I mean I don't know if it's that ,ig of a problem. ! mean you maid Ne should give them, give staff direc .ion or have them take some action to decrease the traffic on that road. Emmim~s: Well it's the traffic that's shooting over from the end of Valley View .hat is doing it intentionally and using it as a turn around to go back ,ut. That's a problem. Ahren. : I don't see how we can ever prevent anything like that. Put a gate Emmi n that' this 13th. Resid : You ought to look at it and try to figure out somethin~ because a terrible problem. But anyway, for those of you who want to follow to the City Council, it will be front of the City Council on May And you should. : Do you know what time? Emmin~s: Well, talk to them. The meeting starts at 7:30 but. Okay, May 6th. PUBLI! ZONINi DIREC~ TO CI Emmin~s: I don't think we need to have a staff report on this. It's prettl straight forward. Does anybody have any comments on this? Oh wait. It's ~ public hearing. Is there anybody here that wants to comment on this? I Conra, favor Conra~ Ahrem To te, Krausl those Erhar' appro, Zonin motto moved, Emmings seconded to close the public heari~. All voted in and the motion carried. The public hearing ~as closed. : I like the idea. I think it's great. : I didn't know that you weren't already the Zoning Administrator. 1 you the truth. · : I don't think that Don Ashworth knew that he was. It was one of quirky things and the ordinance has been around forever. moved, Conrad seconded that the Plan~tng Commission recommend al of an amendment to Section 20-1, Definitions, to slate that the Administrator means Planning Director. All voted in favor and the carried unanimously. Plann ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 29 AMENDI iN MEDI( Paul trauss presented the staff report on this item. . Emmin~s: Okay, clarify one thing for me. When they came in here we talked about the little dirctory sign in back of the building and my recollection is that no one had any trouble with that and that's been passed? Kraus~ : That has. Emmin(s: Okay. But I don't remember whether or not we voted on the monument sign on the front yard? Kraus~ : That was denied. The expansion of the monument sign by 10 feet or whate~er was to include a tenant space which was recommended for denial. Emminfs: And that was recommended for denial so if they have one, just lave the name of the building? Kraus~ : It will be the sign that was originally approved, yes. . Emmints: $o we re down just to looking at the band in the middle? it will Kraus~ : Exactly. Emmin~,s: Okay. That helps me. Another thing I'm a little confused about is wh] is it back here? The City Council, we took action and the City Counc: 1 has taken action but yet it's come back here and I'm a little confu~ed about the procedure. Krausi: Okay. The City Council could have of course acted on it unilalerally. I think there was some concern on their parts that while this ~eemed to maybe making a lot of progress and while it seemed to be consi~:tent with a lot of the guidelines that you had laid down, that you had n,,ver seen it and it was a completely different plan. Emmin.~s: This plan that we're looking at now? Okay. Alright. This is old b .siness. It's not a public hearing but we've got at least two guys out h,,re that look like they might want to talk. Is there something you'd like t.o say to us because this would be an appropriate time to do it? Bob C, land: We don't have much to say. You've heard a lot about it. We're 1 getting tired of talking about it I guess but I just want to clari 'y a couple things. First of all, it's a sign area. In other words, there will be lap siding, like the rest of the building, just in this area and wl won't have a plywood panel that's painted a burgandy color in here. So th, re will just be the individual letters on whatever signs there be for our 3 tenants. That we would put in this area. Emmin ~s: And you're only asking for there ever to be 3 signs in there? Plann Apr i 1 Bob Cl signs and I with other The m. Emmi n: build. Bob C~ Chanh~ Emmin: i nc he,, Bob C~ provi,~ Emmim Bob C( Emmin~ Bob C( Erhart Emmin~ Erhart ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 30 peland: That's right. And we're asking for approval to put in 3 within this sign area. And the maximum height of the area is 4 feet think it's about 58 feet long. The covenants that we've developed he staff have a maximum letter size of 16 inches if there are two. In words, two lines like Chanhassen Dental. One line above another one. ximum size letter there is 16 inches. s: What are the letters that are presently on the ends of the ng? :eland: 10 inches. Business Health Services is 10 inches. seen Medical Center is 10 inches. Goldstar Mortgage is 15. s: And so any signs in the middle would be a maximum height of 16 if there are two lines. What if there's one line? .~eland: It could be up to 3 feet. And then we've allowed for a ion in there would allow a logo to be added. s: And color in that area of the building and no letter? :eland: There'd be no restrictions on color. In this area. s: In Area C? :eland: Right. Can I ask a question? s: Sure. : The sign band on the two sides, what's the height of that? You said the letters were I believe 10 inches? Bob C( 3eland: Here? Erhar No. Yeah, right there. Bob C(Ipeland: The band itself, the piece of plywood that the letters are attacfled to is about 22 inches. Erhart Emmim quest, Ahren·. Bob C( Ahrens Okay. Thanks. Anything else you want to tell us or does anybody else have any of him go right ahead. Are we just going to talk about it? ~eland: If you have questions of me. No. Plann April Emmin nOW 0 Bob C Brad sign the w and a lette' size. restr you ' d heigh' dup 1 i Squar~ Emmin~ who' d what Brad that Emmin Ahren: visua] static that and o any p' probl that front bands We ' Ve the I Emm i n Ahrem it. my co Emm i n! Farma! to I discu put i a lit' the m< ,rig Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 31 is: Yeah, I just wondered if anybody had any question of him right if you had anything else you'd like to tell us. :eland: Not right now. 0hnson: I can add one thing. You all kind of liked the Town Square ilan and in there we have I think 3 or 4 foot sign band that runs all y across the top of the building and gives the freedom to do logos... 1 that sort of stuff. And we have maximum letter height, single height of 18 inches. I think if it's double lined, it's a different That's how that was able to be done and it didn't have the ctions. So you have the area that you put the sign in there., So bring a sign in, they simple look well is the sign letter the right and does it fit that area, and that's worked. This is an attempt to ate what everbody said they liked. Liked the signage over in Town s: Well, be careful of that because there may be some people up here like to see less signage on this building. When we talk about Just eople like. ohnson: I think he said that seemed to work over there. It wasn't hey liked it. It was regulatable. s: Okay. Who wants to, let's ask you what you think. It's tough. : Well, we talked a lot last time about the importance of the impact of this building. It's the first building outside of the gas n that you see coming into Chanhassen and I think it's real important his building look nice. I mean we talked about this over and over er again. I think the monument sign is fine in front.- I don't have oblem with the length of the sign or the names but I do have a m with the 4 foot color signs on the front of this building. I think f we accept this, we're accepting a second best apperance on the of this building. I think it should be consistent with the other My comments are the same that they have been the last two times discussed this. I like the 2 foot height of the signs and I think tters should be similar and I think. s: Similar in size? : Similar in size and I don't think there should be colored logos on think this is a very different building from Town Square. Those are merits. s: Okay. Jeff? es: I realize that this building has a long history here going back hink it was what, 1987 or something? From some of the earlier sions. It seems that we've taken everything that's objectionable and into the Area C and I believe that the last proposal that we had was le bit more monogrammanic and now that a compromise has been made on nument sign and brought up into that center area like we talked April about a rea reall like fetal howev, invol~ fits still of it Emmim 2 foci Farmal being make, that style Ahrem this build Emm i n Farma be le: perhal like t Conral subjel think Busim Medic~ brown profel I do looks give terms a lot the s: I don We're signa~ diffel build. the c, clean cente ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 32 now all of a sudden colors, there's no restriction on color. I have problem with using commercial building for advertising and there's no regulations as I understand it in our ordinances now for that. ad my druthers and if I could just sit here and say this is what I'd .o see, it'd be a major tenant sign only and no confusion between , which is really what signage Area C is. This is a compromise :r and I still would like to see that signase lower impact. If it es perhaps rethinking the color restrictions, I just don't think it n with that building. And you come up with a situation where you're allowing some identification but toning down the advertising aspect is: Did you have any feelings about whether it ought to be 4 foot or or size of letters? es: I think that right now a major objection is the backlit color that size. I don't, layout wise I guess I could feel that we could or I could make some compromises on issues of logos but I would say .he building would look best obviously by continuing the same type across all the way. But I guess I'd be open to compromises on that. : Is there really a possibility we could have an ear on the front of uilding? Or whatever that is? I don't need any body parts on this ~s: No body parts. :es: The point of what I'm trying to say is that if the impact could :sen from the retail aspect of the building. And I think part of that ,s is continuing the type on or looking at a more monogrammic scheme .he signs in Areas B and A and perhaps compromise on the size. : I think this is really fun. Well we're getting back to this tire stuff that's compromise and whatever. What I'd like and what I is clean is what is there right now. As you drive by, the ,ss Health Service. The Orthodontist. The goldstar Mortgage. The ~1 Center. Those pop. They pop off the board. They're white against They are very directional. They really work. They're on a :sional building. Many don't like signage on a professional building. ,ut now it's my personal standards coming into play. I like how it right now. I like the consistency across there. So if I were to .ny direction, I would just continue with what we already have in of, I think I could sell tenants. Maybe not sell Tom but I could sell of tenants into how clean, how professional the building looks with gnage that's up there right now. I really like it. It's only, t know what the setback of the building is. It's maybe lS feet. not talking about 100 foot setback like Town Square, and I like the le on Town Square. I like the action of the color. I like the 'ence. It's entertaining. It draws you in. On a professional ng those are not my standards. On a professional building I'd like eanest and I work with a lot of professional clients. I like the ,st. You can't go by the building and not know that the medical is there right now. You can't go by the building and not know that Plann April the o' black ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 33 thodontist or whatever is there. You can't. It's really, it's in and white. Therefore I feel real, you know but we're in subjective never= never land. Absolutely I don't like to have different signage requirements for different ends of the building or different parts of the building. That doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't and maybe We're decid, band, I see estab what not w well; and 14 Emmi ns Erharl Mortg~ Emmin,, Erhar' Emmin,, medic. Erhar' heighl Emmin Erhar' Emmin: agree what Kraus, Emminl size l just~ Erharl the C~ misint Kraus~ inter can c When comfo solving some problems but I want uniformity across here and if we that everybody should have multi-colored stuff and it's a 3 foot I think everybody should have that right to do that. That's not what for this building. I like the 2 foot band or whatever we've got ished. It really works and that's what I'm most concerned with is orks for the tenants in there. In my mind that really works. I'm Id about the change in the middle. I want everybody to have signage, want the 7 signs or whatever. I just see some lack of uniformity ck of professionalism in the way we carry it across the building. s: Tim? : Question. What do you call the doctor's that work at Goldstar ge? What do you call the doctor? Is it Dr. Workman? s: What? : It's not a medical building. s: Oh, professional building is what people have been saying. Not 1. : Is the issue at hand here, what's remaining to be decided is the of these signs? Is that what I'm understanding? No. : Or is this open? is: No. Now again, for clarification here Paul, right now under the ,ent, under the signage package approved for that building already, :an they do in what is on here as Area C? : They can have the one sign. s: Right. For one business. Right. And it's limited to the same .s the other signs isn't it? Okay. $o this is not unlike the one we ~ot done with. ' .: Oh, I understand but the question here is, it appeared to me that ,uncil decided everything except the height of the sign. Am I .erpretting that? : Well, to the extent, I mean the Council. Let me see if I can ret this correctly and there's some Council people here. Maybe they ,rrect my interpretation but the Council did not formally act on this. .hey remanded it back to you though they pretty much indicated a t level with the idea of 3 signs and I interpret that to say that Plann April they being Emmi n Kraus conc~ Erhar~ Emminl Bob C, Erhar here guess Counc Emmin~ waste Erhari Emmin: us to Mayor Emm i n wide Erhar You ' r Emm i n! certa. everyl too. Erhar the cI sometl that '.~ color becom~ like t drew t Bob C< ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 34 ad a comfort level with the introduction of color. And then it's sent back to you. Is: Okay, but it's wide open in terms of. : Sizing was clearly a concern and then you might have your own : Okay, so it is wide open? s: Are we right back there? Can you tell us Don? ,peland: That's not what I heard. .: The question is, are we just deciding on the height of the sign .onight or are we supposed to open it up and start from scratch? I what do you guys want? lman Workman: When I came tonight I thought it was the height. s: Well if that's all we're going to talk about, I think that's a of time. : Well, I have an opinion about that. s: I don't know why they'd want a little skimpy issue like that for decide. Chmiel: $omebody's got to decide it. s: Well that's the Council's Job. I don't know why, if this isn't pen, then we can do this real fast. : I'm suggesting we do. I've Qot some opinions if it's just that. the chairman, decide. s: Go ahead. As far as I'm concerned, it's wide open I ~uess. I nly intend to comment and so far we've gone through the whole, ody's commented on the whole range of issues so you might as well : Okay, fine. Well, just to repeat what I said last time. I like lot. I like logos because when you drive and you're looking for lng, they spend a lot of money to plant that lo~o in your mind and what you're lookino for. And when you start seeing continuous, same of lettering across what's ~oino to be a very lon~ buildino, it s difficult to do that when you're driving. And so in my opinion, I qose logos. On the other hand, I'll state that, can I ask? Whoever ~e ear in, what in your mind is the height of the ear? :eland: First of all, Miracle Ear is not a tenant in the building. Ahren~ Theoretically it could be. Plann Apr i 1 Erhar~ Bob C~ a log~ Erhar' T WOU Bob C, Erhar' consil heigh' inche, or 24 state said, have consi Emmin, agree 22 to imagi terril 16 inl That it lal stay I thi busin all o to be like all I that opera thing Kraus issue be sa comfo Emm i n in Ar Kraus tryin Emmi n separ acted ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 35 : Yeah, in this representation, bow high is that ear do you think? peland: I don't know right off hand. I'd have to get out a scale but could be 4 feet high. : No, I understand but, okay. Well if I were to look at that scale d say it looks like about 2 feet high. ,peland: Well it clearly isn't 4 feet. .: I guess in terms of the height, the height would seem to me for Itency throughout the whole building, that you match the overall to the band widths which are you said 22 inches. So maybe it's 24 and make that the maximum height of the signs in Area C. I think 22 inches. And also, I think the letters ought to be consistent when we that no letters can be, if-the other ones are lO, which I thought you then make the letters no bigger than 10 inches but of course you can ;wo rows. To me that would be enough restriction to make it ~tent with what's there. That's my opinion. ~s: Okay. I think that there should not be a 4 foot high band. I with basically everybody on that I guess. I think it should stay the 24 inch height that they've got already on the building. I can't )e seeing a 4 foot high logo on that building. I think it would look )le. When I asked what size the letters would be, they said they'd be ;hes if there's two lines and up to 36 inches if there's one line. Joesn't seem reasonable to me. So I guess I agree with Tim's stated :t but the band ought to stay the same size. The letters ought to .he same size as the rest of the letters. They ought to be 10 inches. ~k this is a very different building than Town Square and if )sees want to go in this building that need the logo and the color and that, maybe they want to be somewhere else. Maybe they don't want in this building. Maybe they want to be in Town Square or something '.hat. I don't have any problem with there being 3 signs. That's ye got. Now, where is the action on this? -Looking at the motion 'ou've put in our packet Paul, it states that the, it looks like we're '.lng certainly on more than just sign height. There's a lot of other included in this motion you've given us. : There's other things in this motion but going back to the color that's conspicuous by it's absence. I did interpret the Council to lng, without a formal motion, that most of those that commented were table with color. ~s: Oh' But they haven't taken action and said there will be color ,a C? : I don't recall it coming down that way. Unfortunately we're to expedite this thing quickly so we don't have Minutes. s: And the directory sign and the monument sign, that's a totally Lte issue? That's not any part of this motion. Have they already on that? Plannl ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 36 Kraus~: No, they didn't but basically everybody was in concurrence and that ld be written into the covenants allowing that 6 inch addition to the b~ck sign and keeping the monument the way it was originally approved. Emmin~ : Should there be action on that? It came before us and we discu~ it. I think we already passed a motion. Kraus~: You already did do that, yes. Emmin: : So that's kind of riding along parallel then? Kraus: : Right. Emminl; : Okay. Well, are there any other comments on this issue or does someb~: want to make a motion? Erhart: Is everybody comfortable with essentially 2, 3 and 4 as is? There wash' any real comments on that. Conr : I don't find that 2. I'd prefer to keep the height less than 4 feet. The band. Erbar Well I'll do that in 1. Conr But you have to allow enough space to put the name and I'm not sure ~at 12 feet. Kraus,, If I could. We just divided the area into thirds figuring that no sign ~ould be bigger than one third the space. Farma type logo : But the other difficulty of the height is that if actually the in the logo, pre-determining the size of that type by how high the . The type can be, what is it 10 inches? Emmin~ : Yeah. Farma of it, Bob Cc Emmins : If it's smaller than that in the logo and it's got a lot on top it may not get to that height. land: Can I say something? : You go right ahead. Bob your and: Okay, first of all 12 times 3 is 36 feet. We've got 58 and is. Ahr Allowing for space inbetween. Bob ,eland: We're going to allow for space inbetween. I mean I think you grant us a little judgment on this thing. I mean we're not going to one sign on top of another. I mean goodness. The 12 feet is not enou We could not put Business Health Services or Chanhassen Medical Center in that center area in 12 feet. Can't be done. Either having one Plann Apr i 1 above do it room t4 Now ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 37 nother. You know two lines or single lined. We wouldn't be able to If we come in with a tenant that's got a name like that, there's no them. So I would like to suggest to you that you're allowing 3 signs and that you don't need to worry about the width of ~he sign. 'ye expressed concern about the height and we feel we've been compr ising right along on this thing and we'll compromise some more and we'll ict the height of the letters but I think the color is not an issue as far as I'm concerned right now. What I heard the Council do is they the concept and one of the Councilmen mentioned what about color the motion was made that color could be, that color would not be an is~ . And it was specifically addressed and the motion was approved. Emmim : Well we can make it an issue and they can ignore us. You know they' do what they will. Bob C( about say to agree and: Sure. That's fine. But there was a lot of discussion was or wasn't discussed. What we're willing to do is, it does a letter, a single letter could be 3 feet high. We aren't going a single letter that's 3 feet high. That's Just too high. We th you. Emmim : Then why do you want the possibility? Bob C, and: We're backing off that. Alright? Emmim : Alright. Bob C, and: We just think there's too much restriction overall on the whole lding but that's not, that's for you people to determine that. So we j want the freedom to do whatever we could do within the 4 foot sign area. But we'll restrict it further and we'll make the height of an indi letter 16 inches. So even if we have a single line, those lette cannot be higher than 16 inches. Erhar Can you tell me what the length of the Chanhassen Medical Center' sign I? Bob land: Not exactly but I can tell you it's around 22-23 feet. Ahre And the height of those letters is what? Bob C )eland: 10 inches. Emmim : Tim, you can see from the number, the windows look like they're all e~ n spacing and it covers 3 windows and there's 7 windows in Area C so it'd almost half. Brad hnson: Each window is lO feet. Emmim : Yeah, so you get an idea from the windows. Bob back land: Center line of window to center line of window? So let's that 3 foot individual letter height. We'll change that. Plann April Emmin! want? Bob C~ Emmi n! lettel buildl lettel band. if it Conra( It's Emmin( Ahren., Emmi n! Conra~ we ha~ don't guide colore right standa Emmin~ Conrac just S Emmin$ These said fine. ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 38 think a motion ought to, have you had a chance to say what you ~eland: Yes I have. s: I don't want to cut you off. I think a motion ought to address style. Whether or not they're consistent with what's on the ng. It ought to address the height, the maximum height of the s. The height of the sign band itself and the number of signs on the Unless you don't care about the number of signs on the band because gets long they'll just lose their ability to put anymore on. Okay. : Boy, it's tough for us to get involved in some of these issues. o subjective. s: But so what? : That's what we have to do. They're asking us to do it. Well we've got to do it but again, we don't have to do more than to do. In other words, we can give some minimal guidance here. We have to you know, talking about color. We don't have anything to us on color standards. Should they be multi-colored? Single ~? I know what I like and I'd prefer to see it exactly the way it is now but I don't know that I feel comfortable imposing a color rd on that. s: Let me tell you why. Because we haven't thought about that for the city. You know it's of like we're making something up. s: No. Let me tell you why it doesn't bother me at all on this one. folks have a sign package for their building. They have come in and ~ want to change that. I don't feel at all uncomfortable saying If you want to change what you've already got, we're going to impose condit one on that change and because we don't have an ordinance that addres :es these things, we have no choice but to resort to our subjective feelin )s about it. I don't see any problem with being upfront about that. I thin our ordinance is inadequate but we don't need it here. If they're coming in fresh, then I think we've got a harder problem. But here it doesn'' bother me at all. Because we can just say to them, take what you got ant go away. We're going to leave it the way it is. Conrad Emming OAhren Okay, and what they've got is a right to put logos on? : No. No. That's not the way the original sign plan was at all. Emming : We didn't approve any logos for that building. Plann Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 39 Bob C, ~land: We can put a logo in. If it's within the sign band. Conr bali If it's within the sign band, they can do that. I would have to they could do that. Emmin! : Well maybe. If they did, it was an oversight because we only talke~ about putting words on there. Yeah, we never discussed that. Co If they want to put in colors, I believe they could do that. Erhar Well they did. They did and that was consistent. Conr and t So in my mind those things are their rights right now. The logos colors. Emmin! : Fine. Then I'm willing to say, then go do it. Erhar There is a restriction on the band right now, iSlthere not? Conr co again. clean wish. Emmin~ it wit two numb litt sign that the tena tai Number of signs and height. We have, logically we have some over the height of this. I would have liked to have control over, I said it before but I really, what signage is there is really nd professional and I wish that would be carried through. That's my I just don't know that I can, at this point in time, iSpose my wish. : If you're uncomfortable imposing your wish, then we should leave what they're got. And that's ftr~e with me because they're here for ns as I see it Ladd. One is they don't have enough signs for the of tenants they have because the use of the building has changed a bit. The second one is, American Family wants to put their regular there that doesn't fit. It can't fit so those are the two things lng them in here. They really want to change the package because of the building has changed and because they've got an interested who wants a specific sign. And I feel no conpunction whatever to to go back and change tbs sign package for a particular tenant. I don't hink that's, I feel no need to do that whatever. If they can't fit it in ith what they've got, I'm sorry. But what's up there now doesn't me at all. I think it looks good and I wish they'd Just carry throu: with what's there. Like you. I agree with that. Co I just want to make sure we know what we should control and have the r ht to control. Emmin( : We need to rework the sign ordinance. Conra( The sign ordinance is a pain in the neck. They really are. Even a new ,ne. Pain in the neck. Okay, Tim you were going to make a motion? Plann. ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 40 Erhart : Let me give it a shot here. I'll move that the Planning Commi~ ion recommend approval of Site Plan Amendment #88-17 to amend the signa~ plan for the Chanhassen Medical Arts building subject to the follo~ lng conditions: Number 1, maximum of 3 signs in Area C. Number 2, that he sign, maximum total sign height would not exceed 24 inches with no indiv 1 letters higher than 10 inches. 2, that the sign length be no more han, I'm going to take a shot at 24 inches. I'll make 24 feet per sign. I think there is, and the reason I put that in there because I think there is a maximum that you want these things spread out. 3 as is. 4 as is. . That colored signs and logos will be permitted. That's it. And the r n I said the 24 feet, I just can't imagine one whole sign going across the whole thing. If you've got a sign on the right that's about 24 feet. Why did we have 12 feet? Conrac They should do what makes sense for the business and they shoul 't do anything that's dumb. And they won't. Emmin! : So colored signs and logos, as long as they fit within the 24 inch gn band, they can have it. Erhar Yep. Conr Motion's been moved. Emmin~ : Is there a second? It hasn't been seconded. Conra~ Another motion? Emmins : No, I'm going to second it, for discussion. We've already discus it some. It's got most of what I'm interested in and the only thing hat hangs me up is the colored sign and the logos and I have been agains those but when I think about it, the only trouble is then you get the w and the white and then color in the middle and I'm not sure that' good. Ahre I won't go along with that. No way. I think we have the absolute right ,o say what goes on the front of these buildings. Subjective as it is. 're going to live with the signs on those buildings for a long, long time. I'm trying to understand what you would propose like the American Famil have the logo but it be white? Is that what you're saying? Ahre Yeah. Conrad Farmak more It'd say American Family. It would not be the logo type. .s: Wasn't that how it was proposed on the monument sign? It was irammic? that Yes. We've already said that when Goldstar Mortgage moves out ~at sign will change to a black and white sign. Right? Plann ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 41 Brad : No. We said we'd agree to that if you'd agree to this. Emmin~ think Ahrens Mortg~ ever : Well, if they move out I think the sign will come down. I don't '11 keep it up. No but I mean we said that we objected to the look of the Goldstar sign. This big gold sign in the front of the building. I think said it didn't look great. Emmin~ that.= Ahren. buildi open they don't be a if there Erhart an : Well I think they've said that too. Yeah, they've agreed with Why would we go along with colored signs in the middle of the ,? I just don't understand that. I don't ever want to leave it there could be an ear on the front of the building. ! know not a tenant but you know and I'm being somewhat facetious but l want to leave that possibility open. I mean this is supposed to , classy looking building. It's not supposed to be Town Square or comes in and they're going to do finger nails, they put a big up there. Well you know, it's ridiculous but it could happen and if no control at all. I guess in my motion I'm thinking that really, if they want to put replace Chanhassen Medical Center with an ear to me, this pattern .would ,e ultimately be consistent through the whole building. I don't have this ion for these white consistent signs at all. Ahre I guess that's what we originally approved and I like that idea. And I :an go along with the 3 signs if they're consistent but I cannot go along ith the logos and the colored signs... Brad a neon: I've just got to say something for the record. You did not the signs. You approved a band. Yeah, that's what I meant. Excuse me. Brad could white ,hnson: And no letters were approved by you. All you said is we signs. Whoever did the first sign selected, happen to select ,ters. Emmim : He did a good job. Brad 3son: And we happened to approve. Whoever selected the second sign d white letters. We approved. And we're not sure that was the right .hing to do number one because it made it too consistent and we're deali with the issue at the present time. Okay and when you talk about sign dtnances, there are people. Miracle Ear for example has spent pr y only 50 million dollars advertising the ear and when they come into building and they're professional. You know the hearing business, they .nt their logo on the building. Ahr We get that argument all the time from. Planning Commission Meeting April 17, lggl - Page 42 Brad hnson: Who's we? Ahren., : The Planning Commission· That fast food restaurants, they have to have heir, they have to have golden arches or whatever it is they have to have. That's not true. Brad hnson: Well see, my problem with this and I'm sitting through these meet. Is for one purpose. To see if you're pro business or anti business and w we should develop in this city or not. Okay? And what I hear from Planning Commission is a concern of mine and I hear control. We didn' have this problem in Town Square. Okay? We don't have the problem in an other buildings we've ever built in this particular community becau you've always just allowed us to say the letters should be this. We al this and give us. Emmim : We don't have a problem with Town Square either Brad. Brad : I'm talking, and this is in the CB district. You guys have got realize, this is not a business park. This is a CBD district and that' the principle you have to go by and these are prevented things. Emmin! : It isn't permitted. What's permitted on this building is what's been roved for the building. Don't talk to me about our sign ordinance which '11 all admit is inadequate. Brad hnson: I think it's adequate but. Emmin : But what's permitted for this building is what was... Brad on th into neon: Yeah, and our issue which will ultimately if this is not sooner or later we're going to go back to the original discussions building and then we're going to have to go through the whole one more time because our contention is that we were railroaded current situation. Okay? And that's where we stand. Ahre That's all the comments I have. Emmin~ : Okay. Does anyone else have any more discussion on the motion that' on the floor? Otherwise I'll call the question. a moved, Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission recommend 1 of Site Plan Amendment #88-17 to amend the signage plan for the Medical Arts/Ridgev~ew Medical Arts 8utlding subject to the conditions: 1. T re will be a maximum of three signs in Area C. 2. T maximum total sign height will not exceed 24 inches with no i ividual letters higher than 10 inches. · T sign length in Area C will be no more than at 24 feet per sign. Plann April 4. TI · · ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 43 sign covenants shall be revised to prohibit temporary stgnage, wall mounted or ground mounted, excepting temporary lease signs which criteria will be established by staff. sign covenants shall be revised to include a statement that all ~e must be approved and permitted by the City. ored signs and logos will be permitted. Erharl voted in favor and the rest opposed. The motion failed with a vote of I 4. Emmim : Another motion? Conra~ I make a motion that Planning Commission recommends approval of Site .an Amendment ~88-17 to amend the signage plan for the Chanhassen Medi Arts/Ridgeview Medical Arts Building with the following conditions: There ill be 3 additional signs allowed. That the total sign band height be 24 nches. That the maximum size of the letters be 10 inch~s. Emmin~ : That's it? Co I'm done. Emmin( : What about, nothing on. Erhart None of the other conditions? Conrac With condition 3 and 4 of the staff report. Erhart Okay, I'll second that. Would it be impertinent to ask for a clarification? Emmin( : Yes. Since you're Planning Director and Zoning Director, you can go ah~ . Conr Conrad Krauss would ,e. I can be impertinent. Does this allow color? I'm not addressing that. Okay. And logos are also not addressed? That's it because I don't have a clue how to address them. Is the logo subjected to the sign band height? Presumably it Conrad Right. Emming : Everything's got to be within the sign band. When you say a max' of 3 signs, you mean between the two porticos in what's being descri ,ed as Area C? Plann, April Conra Erhar' Emmin: Erhar' Emmin~ You'T positj Conrac 2 feel logos invol Emm i n! Conra~ appro~ Chanha follo~ 1. T 2. T i 3. T 4. Th si All w carri~ Emming they Ahrens Emming Ahrens colore all th Farmak busine of put ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 44 : A maximum of three signs in Area C. Ask for a second. : I seconded it. s: You got one. Want two seconds? : It wasn't that good. s: Alright, so what do you see them. Let's go over it again. thinking on color and logos, you're just simply not taking any on on it? : I'm saying I'm going to control it through the sign band which is in height. And I basically, I do not recall that we ever addressed or white in the original deal. ! think we could possibly get back sd with that issue. I guess I'm just ignoring it. Okay. Any other discussion? moved, Erhart seconded that the Planning Commission recommend al of Site Plan Amendment #86-17 to amend the signage plan for the ssen Medical Arts/Ridgeview Medical Arts Building subject to the lng conditions: sre will be a maximum of three signs in Area C. ks maximum total sign height will not exceed 24 inches with no ~dividual letters higher than 10 inches. ~s sign covenants shall be revised to prohibit temporary signage, i Sher wall mounted or ground mounted, excepting temporary lease signs c r which criteria will be established by staff. sign covenants shall be revised to include a statement that all ~nage must be approved and permitted by the City. ~ed in favor except Ahrens and Farmakes who opposed and the motion with a vote of 3 to 2. s: Those who are opposed to the motion I think should state whateve ~nt to in terms of their reasons. I guess go ahead. I've already said. : Do it one more time Just so. I cannot go along with, I don't think we should be approving signs or logos for that band. That was not what I envisioned at we approved before. s: The intent of my objection is not to be opposed to business or Ds owners. I feel that this building is sort of in a twilight zone )ose. If it is a professional building, it's different than a Town PlannJ April Squat impac light adver retai build every ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 45 · I think that the signage should be consistent. Should be low t. If you put color into something, you give it impact. If you back it, you give it impact. And the purpose of signage area C is to rise. It's not to identify. It's to advertise and that's great in a 1 area but there is no restriction in a business area. If you get a ing that's 3 or 4 stories high, each and every doctor or each and lawyer or each and every insurance agency can put a sign out, and if you get 200 or 300 tenants, you've got a pretty silly looking development. I realize that there's a lot of additional baggage with this thing, as I said b)fore but I would rather see it the way it is now than make one third of it s retail area. Emmin~ s: Alright. When does this go to the City Council? Krauss That would be 2 weeks from Monday. APPRO~ )L OF MINUTES: Chairman Emmings noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission meetings dated March 20, 1991 and April 3, 1991 as presented· OPEN CISCUSSION: PRESE~ rATION/SLIDE Si~ ON BLUFF CREEK BY PERRY DEAN ~ ERIC ROTH. Krauss We have two gentIemen waiting to give us a report. If I couId give a brief introduction. I think you'II find this quite interesting. · Dean and Mr. Roth came to taIk to Todd Hoffman and myseIf about preser/ation of BIuff Creek as an environmentaI, sensitive environmentaI area. They grew up in this area. Have been hiking it for years and are intima;eIy famiIiar with it and basicaIIy have begun naturaIists with good knowIeJge of this area. I think it's very timeIy. I discussed with them some oF the initiatives proposed in the Comprehensive PIan. Vis a vis preser/ation of BIuff Creek. Aisc with the bIuff Ilne ordinances that we've >een discussing and severaI other envtronmentaI issues that we've been I)oking at. Their goaI is for this to be Iocked up tn some sort of perma~nt protective state. Either pubIicalIy or privateIy and to I think make i~ somewhat accesstbIe or knowabIe to those who want to experience it. They'c~Iike to pursue this matter. We're going to have them give a simiIar presenEation to the Park Board. They do have a sIide show as I understand of the corridor and we've been taIking to them about having them Iead a waIkin tour of the creek. HopefuIIy before the bugs come out which I think ,ouId be a great experience for aiI those who can join and we'Ii open that u to interested peopIe on the Park Board, City CounctI and PIanning Commie ion. And with that, I'd iike to pass the meeting over. Perry ean and Eric Roth gave a sIide presentation showing the history and presen~ state of the Iower vaIIey bed of BIuff Creek stretching roughIy a milea~d a hail Iong from Pioneer Trail to TH 101. They demonstrated it's unique quaIities which they feel need to be preserved from development, either privateIy or pubIicaIIy, for future generations being it's one of the Ia~t remenants of the "Big Woods". Plann ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 46 Emmin~ s: What can we do about this? I'm going to go there as soon as I can Let Tim guide me through it. Kraus: : We're talking about setting up a tour probably the second or third week J n May. We'll try to clarify that date and get an early notice out. It wiJ 1 probably have to be a Saturday morning I think for everybody. Erhart: Let me just throw out a couple things. I live down there and I hi k~ down there and I've always been real at the forefront to try and preserve that land. I almost lost it there for a minute on the Bluff Creek Greenl thing there. That's when I recognized the resource. The thing about the whole thing you know, the City does down a substantial part of what ou've shown and it owns it because there was development. Emmin~ : How? Erhar' : Well because when Hesse Farms came in with their subdivision, the City id we want the valley in that area and they gave it to them. Now what' happening is we don't allow, since we don't allow any development in the , what you're complaining about and I' don't know that, I looked at that and it's not any different than the Hesse Farm ones. The probl today with it is that the guy who owns that house also owns the valle . Okay, and it's because we don't allow development. So we've got no wa to, when a subdivision comes in, to say okay now that you're divi we want that valley. So now we have a unique problem. Personally I don' think we're going to lose it because it really is unbuildable. And we've lot it on the Comp Plan to show an ultimate trail connection all the way f~ TH 5 down Bluff Creek and everything. My vision is that yeah, when get older and I have more time, I want a hiking trail all the way from 5, from the Arboretum and downtown all the way down 212. Hopefully we wol t have these commercial things down there, which I've been trying to get r of for years, so when you get down there you don't get a bunch of run d~ buildings but I wanted to say that because it's really a complex pattel of things. The problems you know. Sometimes development helps you in lng things. Now that you can't, we're going to get these guys with big homes. That happens to be the Redmond. He owns what, 20 acres something? Kr Actually BO. E' 80? But we're not going to lose the valley to that but what I'd like see us to continue to strive towards the City in the long run acqui ng everything below the bluff line so that it's secured. And I don't :now that you can do that right now. Eric : If I could just mention. In the 1970's, early BO's, the su zion that we were given about how this might be secured was through ng called conservation easement whereby the owners of the property are , well none of this is by force. It's all by assuming you can get u~versal consent, the easement would allow them to still own the proper~y. Still be able to sell it and pass it on to heirs. However, that portiol of the property that would be included within the easement would have s)me strings attached to it. Strings would be determined by their Plann Apr i 1 commo' on wh~ attact profit broke! secure Erhart progr~ devel¢ Eric F hay i n( peopl~ Emmi n~ for u: here? Krauss yOU ' rE was a] jumpe¢ things this f under~ this i and it Emm i n~ Kraus: know a that ~ cou 1 d points throu~ direct there fores~ lot of good t but t~ Ahrens Krauss merit someth roped starti kinds ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 47 consent. That easement is site specific and it varies and depending t arrangements can be made certain, as I say, strings would be ed to the property and one of the provisions would be that a non- organization...would have to oversee to assure that the rules aren't · I don't make any claims to know all the governmental tricks.., to the preservation of the valley but that's a challenge... : It's possible that you could get people to sign up for that m, particularly Redmond who, he obviously doesn't want the valley :ed because of his view. )th: There are advantages to that. There are tax advantages to the property under easement...so there are incentives to induce s: I wonder if Roger could give us some ideas and is this an issue or is this really a Park and Rec issue? Are we stepping on toes : What we've found thus far, the general question of open space that , we've got you going on the golf course and some other things. It so brought up to the Park Board and it wasn't a band wagon they on to right away. The City Council's talking a lot about visioning lately and Steve you were at our goals session meeting. I think ails into that category. You really have to get the community to Land what's down there and lined up and get some consensus that yeah, s something that warrants preservation. It warrants doing something 's for the common good. s: Protect it first and then tell them it's down there. Well ideally you would do that and I think if there was a, you abused word, but a task force of people representing the community ms in a position to approach people and we had knowledge of what we ~ffer them, maybe some of them would be cooperative and do that. Tim out a good point. When we do have the opportunity to take it n dedication, that's clearly the easiest route for us to go and most and then we have outright control over it but as Tim pointed out, not a whole lot of development potential right down there in the )able future. You know these things can get very sticky. There's a property owners. The Redmonds may well believe that it's inherently protect this thing but they may have a problem, and I don't know, )y may have a problem of having some sort of public access to it. They may w~nt to protect it while they own it. Now, protecting it just to have it there is probably has some n it's own right but as a community, as a local government, this is ng that should be shared but not abused I guess. It shouldn't be .fl with private ties ideally in my view. So I guess we're at the lg point here. [ don't know what the answer is and we've got all >f things like this coming up lately· It's a little bit overwhelming Plann ng Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 48 becaule we don't have easy solutions. On the other hand it's kind of excit; ng because everybody's starting to think about these things. Erhar .: If I could share one more thing. I have a bigger concern almost for t e Bluff Creek north to TH 5 because I think in that, where the areas you s ,owed, nobody's going to build there. It's just impossible. You can't get roads or driveways down in there. My vision of this Bluff Creek corrI, or, it goes all the way so when you walk from TH 5 to 212, you feel that gu're in a greenway. If you read your planning stuff. I have a visio for a greenway. My concern is that since there's a lot of high land all tie way up there and the creek is relatively narrow, is that how do we get elough width for this thing. Just because it's on our comp plan, that doesnt mean we're going to have a greenway because we haven't defined the bound~ ties. How do we get a greenway that's wide enough on this Bluff Creek to actually have a greenway over that whole site? That's going to take oney and some good planning. We really haven't started that. Eric oth: I think it's really a superb idea to think of it in those terms Certainly this is an ecosystem and what's upstream is defintely going to impact what's downstream. I think it's worth considering what happe ed in Minneapolis with Minnehaha Creek. At the city line, that's no longe' a park and it's just gobbled up by various private owners. I'm certa nly not against private property but I think it's important to try to convi' people who own bits and pieces of that to think in terms of, I recall back in the American Revolution time there was a symbol, a coiled snake was chopped into sections. Each section was to be states and choppe up it's dead but together it's something. Likewise I think it may be ng for a major landowner to have a portion of the valley but you can't otect that portion unless the other parts are similarly protected. $o t~ e needs to be some common consensus. I believe that needs to be taken the highest level possible so everyone. Erhar I don't think, if you don't have a greenway all the way through scut n Chanhassen, nobody's going to use it. It will Just be... Eric ,th: Well yeah. Erh~ Only when it becomes part of a greater park system will people reall appreciate it. Kraus: Pr true thin! it Wilderness is worthy of protection even if nobody goes there. y particularly if nobody goes there. I don't know if this fits the ~age of wilderness but my own personal belief is that there are that warrant protecting whether or not we can access them. Ideally d be a means for getting people down into here. Erhar If you're within a metropolitan area... Kraus~ Even if we do develop an access into the area, it's never going to be an asy place to hike. I mean you couldn't reform it to make it so it's somet ng you could drive through or something. Plann April Commission Meeting , 1991 - Page 49 Oh golly no. I could see, would you ever see asphalt trails? I could ;es that. Eric are W~ first : There are deer paths now. But still, those kinds of concerns down the road...deliberating over signage. They're important but to secure the area as a whole. Ahr So what are we going to do? Well again, I don't have an easy answer for you but there's going to be similar presentation made to the Park Board next week. We're going to together a hiking tour where I think representation from all three bodi that really make a difference here and then I think we start asking quest like we ask Roger, what are the options on obtaining some of this. Maybe if we get direction, there's consensus in direction in which staff told to contact the property owners and see what can be arranged vol, ily. Tax benefits can be pointed out. Great. I don't know that this the kind of thing that ordinances fix necessarily. A bluff line ordina can be used to protect some of this stuff but this is, an ordinance isn't going to necessarily get you what you want to get out of this. So I don't know. Emmin9 : Well we've got to find some incentive for the landowners to vol ly give up some of their right to access because maybe they have a v' ' too. Preserving it but the other thing that popped in my mind is this lng new zoning stuff that we have. I thought of that too. Emmin : Which is something that I thought we might use on the whole bluff area work it t you'd mess WOU no one else seemed to be real interested in it but it would sure places like this. Zone it to the use it's in right now and freeze · But I don't think you can pick out spots and do that. I think ye to zone the whole bluff area and then'you get in a hell of a lng to find what that bluff area is. I think down there it t be a bad tool. At least we wouldn't have anymore development than although I think there should be more development... Should be more? Emmi : Or wouldn't be opposed to more development· Erhar At the proper time there's Just. No, I'm not saying you should or shou 't. There's going to be development. The question is how do you plan >r it and in return we get the maximum benefit for everybody. Emmin : As far as I'm concerned, everything 100 feet from the crest of a bluff, River hart down all the way down over the bluff and all the way to the Minnesota iht to just be, that ought to be done to that. We keep talking about that. I'm not so concerned about those that are up at that ledge because the bluff areas, when you walk .u'll see it. We walk at the bottom. We don't walk at the ledge. Planni Commission Meeting April 7, 1991 - Page 50 You 't see those houses up there anyway. My bigger concern is when you get ul in the upper part of Bluff Creek, how do we make sure that we've got a cou hundred or 300 feet of greenway through there? That's going to be the 1 challenge I think. Emmin~ : What will we ever do with 2127 Erharl Somehow you're going to have to have a trail to get 'across 212. 212 is actually going to bridge a portion of that. Emmin : Oh it will? Er Not the ravines. Where Bluff Creek does cross though. It was going to go over. That' not really final design yet but. Emmin~ : You know farmers put these big culverts in for the cows to walk throu~ . Why couldn't we put one of those under 2127 Erhart I think we have to. to wo' Mile you arran the I think we want something better than that. I was in a position with Henneptn County when we designed the Crosstown Bridge over 9 k. Now it doesn't look like much if you're on the highway but if get a side view of that from Bryant Park or Minnetonka Corporate it's really quite attractive. There's sort of a flying buttress that holds the bridge up and there is a trail benched in along le of the creek. Erhar I guess I'm assuming here, and maybe we should have brought this up ,re because they're planning 212, that we will have a way to walk acro.~ that. Emmin~ : Under. Erhar to Under that at Bluff Creek. And if we haven't voiced our opinion , to the State on this thing yet, boy we ought to. Kr To be honest, I don't know that it's ever been raised. Erhar Kr were 1995 to. Maybe we'd better do that. In fact, coincidentally I was at a luncheon meeting today over at Envelope and the new Commissioner from MnDot announced that they ng to let the contracts for the section of 212 into Chanhassen in is about a year or two sooner than we thought they were going Erhar from Maybe could we direct Paul to draft something from a resolution Council to MnDot that we want a pedestrian crossing there? Planning Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 51 Krauss Why don't you let me get the EI$ out and teii you what they're thinki . But at this point, we'll let you know as soon as we can when we schec e this thing and hopefully we can get some good attendance there. Emmint : Great. Conra Has anybody been over to Minnewashta Park recently? NO. Conr It's really quite nice. They have done some major improvements. Ahre That is nice. Conr It's just terrific. Emmin~ : What improvements are you talking about? Kraus~ There was the grading that we approved. Co just The grading. Remember the grading? That simple grading. But it ned it, it just make it quite nice. Yeah. I'm real impressed. Emmin~ : Alright...report from our Director. Kraus~ thing going latel' with popu not of us usual he r chan And year compl I'll skip that but there is one thing, if it's okay. There is one want to bring you up to speed on. I assume it's okay. I've been k and forth to the Metro Council with a good deal of frequency Steve was at our goal setting meeting and he... After working Metro Council for 2 years and doing things like giving them our ion projections in December of 1989. Remember I-told you this was ng to be easy. I was in a meeting with 14 Metro Council staff and 3 they kicked the meeting off with Mike Munson. Mike was being his lf. His regional model didn't predict what was going to happen and nizes that but he's not going to change it. And he's not going to it until he rewrites his regional model for the entire Twin Cities. actually had the audacity to say maybe you should just have a one line amendment and then come back and ask again next year. In no in terms and using fairly blunt language, I told 'him that that was y unacceptable and we basically went at it a little bit and laid the i Dues out. I said this is a package. We've worked on this for years. It's plan that's for 10 years. It's exactly what you guys told us you us to do. I can't help it that it came at an inopportune time for your )del. That's just tough. And in talking to the Metro Council, I if you read that article about the Metro Council this weekend. It's all le unfortunately. When you're in a room with 14 people, it's clear that don't talk to each other. And when Mike Munson would tell you somet~ ng, somebody else would go, Mike. You really didn't mean it that way dM you? Everybody else was fairly complimentary about the Plan. I mean w enviro ways furiou )'ye been given a lot of credit for being on the cutting edge ~mentally and even Dick Osgood couldn't find bad things to say and he does. Not very bad anyway. Anyway, I came away from there, I was · Came back and talked to the Mayor. We had a meeting with Bonnie Planning Commission Meeting April 17, 1991 - Page 52 Featherstone who's our new Metro Council representative. Bonnie is kind of an interesting person. I mean initially we had some concerns because we were )3sing a representative from Chanhassen who was very vocal on our behalf. But Bonnie seems to have a good grasp of the issues. We took her out t¢ lunch and explained where we were coming from on these things. She was very supportive. She also, her first run in with Metro Council staff, she cane away very angry on a particular issue dealing with the Shakopee By-pans so I think we have an ally there. The Mayor, if you don't know this already, Don knows everybody. He's met them and he's got a computer file cf who everybody is. Well it turns out that he used to be the neighb3r of Mary Anderson in Golden Valley and Mary's now the new Metro Council Chair so we're having lunch with her on Monday. I also called back Ann Rc3erg who's a head of comprehensive planning. My meeting was on a ThursCay and I called Ann on a Friday and let her know that I was extremely upset I had a second meeting scheduled last, when was it? This past week. Wednesday I think. No, Thursday. Sorry. And the tenor of the meeti g was completely different. There was 4 people involved with Mike Munson this time. Myself and Mark Koegler and all that Munson is willing to accept from population forecasts is the 212 numbers which we had in our plan a s the low range. Now when I went to grad school, the first book they gave ~ in statistics was a little thing that said, How to Lie with Statistics. My meeting with them was basically that book laid out. Their position appears to be now that they want to find a way to approve what we have in there because I think they understand that, this may be an exaggeration but the fundamental righteousness and reasonableness of what we've tone. And the way they're getting at that is backwards but that's seemi~ )ly the way they do things. Basically we were so conservative in our land ¢ >nsumption forecasts that even if you use the 212 population numbers, we're >nly 11 acres higher than they think we should be. So we should come throug~ it with flying colors on that. Now they're still trying to grasp the fa~'t that Prince won't develop his property and 3erome Carlson won't develop. I'm sending them copies of Minutes where Serome Carlson has said that in a public session that he's not going to and Eckankar but ! think those ~re all things that we can work out. On employment, it's a whole differ)nt bag and it was kind of funny because they had no ability to projec employment whatsoever. They don't know how to do it. Right now we have 2 500 more jobs on the ground than they said we should. So Munson is sayin( take his year 2010 projections, 2,500 jobs to it and that's okay with ~ m. And he literally said I don't know if Chanhassen's right or wrong ihen they say they're going to have 12,000 jobs in 10 years but if anybo¢ / can do it, they probably can. So who cares basically. The long and th) short of it is, I think we're nearing agreement. I won't believe it anc~I won't be resting on it until I see it on paper and I don't want them t~ come back and say since, you know we're agreeing to disagree on popula with t to use decide land u it mak Emmin~ and pr ;ion forecasts. I mean they're going to tell us we have to agree ~eir numbers. I'm going to refuse and say you use what you're going and we'll use what we're going to use and we'll let the future · But if we agree to disagree and the result is the same, we get the se plan that we laid out, I think that's a satisfactory result. If )s them happy, fine. But I'll keep you posted. Are people sufficiently interested in this Bluff'Creek corridor ~servation that we should add it to our work list of ongoing issues PI Commission Meeting April 7, 1991 - Page 53 so it Creek 't get lost? Okay. Let's put that down as number 20. Bluff rridor or something like that. Krau Oh! One other thing. In terms of where we're going again. It has do with that goal setting meeting and I think we probably don't want to g into that tonight but one of the things that came out of there is again ~oing into this visioning thing but there's a desire for people to reall' get an understanding of the TH 5 corridor and to work things throu~ . And what we're going to be doing is organizing a bus tour, again prob with down into sh of and t saw. get t we'll on a Saturday with some design professionals· We've been working folks who are helping us on TH 5 improvements and going up and arranging with property owners so we can get out and hike around individual properties and go back and basically do design · Where you'll have a lot of blank paper and people are capable lng, which I'm not, and everybody can sit down. 5verybody being you City Council and the HRA and kind of say really, here's what you 's what you'd like to achieve and then try to figure out how to · That should be really an interesting session and hopefully doing that before the end of June. Emmim : What was the word you used? Design what? Kraus~ Shitter. Emmin~ : Shitter? What does it mean? Kraus~ Some french name. Emmin.< : Go slow· If it's french, I'm interested. Kraus,~ a tab if ce co Basically everybody, you basically put your heads together around with blank pads of paper and you go through. Here's what happens put buildings so far back and you put your parking here and shopping there. Everybody goes, no that's not good. Let's go through.., a where you're drawing your way through this until you come to some nce on what you'd like to see. Emmin : Well I'd be willing to try it. I don't know the hell I'm going to be le to do that· Krauss~ No, you're not going to. I can't draw either. We'll have some urban~esign folks· When we put this work thing down, can we call it. Emmin~ : Okay, I'm sorry. Tim Erhart's Bluff Creek Corridor· Erhar No. We can start calling it the Bluff Creek greenway? Emmin! : Fine. Erhar That's been written up quite a bit in planning stuff. Plann April Emmin where Conra~ and ti Submi PIann Prepa' ng Commission Meeting 17, 1991 - Page 54 s: And by that we mean Bluff Creek from wherever it starts to 'er it ends as long as it's in Chanhassen. Okay. moved, Ahrens seconded to ad3ourn the meeting. All voted in favor e motion carried. The meeting was ad3ourned at 11:30 p.m.. .ted by Paul Krauss ng Director ed by Nann Opheim