The URL can be used to link to this page

1991 11 06CHAN ASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGU! NOVI Chai MEM8 and MEMB PUB1 CONI ZONEI AND MEETING 6, 1991 Emmings called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. PRESENT: Ladd Conrad, Steve Emmi~gs, Brian Batzii, Jeff Farmakes n Ah~ens '- ABSENT: Tim Erhart and Annette Ellson PRESENT: Jo Ann OIsen, Senior Planner and Kate Aanenson, Planner II HEARING: USE PERMIT AMENDMENT FOR PROGRESS VALLEY STORAGE ON PROPERTY FRINGE BUSINESS AND LOCATED AT 1900 STOUGHTON AVENUE, GARY BROWN DUNGEY. Jo A' publ Olsen presented the staff report. Chairman Emmings called the hearing to order. Gary U-Ha pti and and thin own: I'm Gary Brown. I represent Progress Valley. To address the situation. That's what we rent is U-Haul trucks down there ily. Once in a while there's-a couple trailers come in, stragglers try to get rid of those right away because we have gross down there don't like hooking them up so that's pretty incidental. 8ut I I know as far as that goes, that's a lot better place to that those U-Ha trucks I believe sitting down there with very minimal visibility than hey are sitting over here in the middle of town I think. And as far as, I read through the staff report and stuff on this and they're re( lending that we put in some evergreens along, the southwest corner and' we 't have any problem with that. It will make it look a lot prettier. And a far as a gravel base goes Underneath where we're going to park these thing , we don't have any problem with that. We cad handle that. And peopl do need a place to park their big boats and motorhomes and such like that ecause I think it looks better parking them down there in the field than t does parking them all over the city. Emmin ~s: Can I ask you, what kind of stuff is being stored Outside? I'm not t. lking about the trucks right now but just what kind of outside stora e was there? Gary Town: There's I believe 2 or 3 motorhomes there and a couple of boats and I believe one construction trailer. Emmin:ls: Okay. And if on the map that we've got her6 of your. Gary lrown: If we put it in that back corner over there, the only person that' really, going to have to see it is a person who lives right next to the s orage center who happens to be my partner who's here, Gary Oungey. Emmin~ls: Okay, so the outside storage you're proposing is the area that's in thl box on that? Gary Town: Correct. Plan ing Commission Meeting Nove 6, 1991 - Page 2 Emmi Is: Then as far as where you keep the trucks and other things that you out, where are those kept? Gary own: We've been keeping them so to speak in the backyard right now. Behi the building. Emmi ~s: Well, where on the map though? Gary town: Right about over in this area over in here. Where this-open land right in here. So that is visible by 212. If we put them back over n this corner, that would.be. Emmi ~s: Be less so. Gary Irown: That would be less visible if that's what you want to'see. Emmi Is: Now I noticed that the original approval required trees every 40 feet nd a berm. Was that done? O1 They do have the landscaping in. Emmi ~s: That was required by the origi'nal, okay. O1 They just don't have the concrete curb. Emmi ~s: Okay. Is there anything else you'd like us to take into' consi leration here? Gary own: No. I think you guys are doing a great job. Con : Oh sure Gary. Gary Town: You don't believe that Ladd? Emmin)s: At least we're doing okay so far. Gary irown: $o far tonight we're doing great. Emmin Is: Okay, thanks. Anybody else that would like to say anything about this Lpplication? If not, is there a motion to close the Public hearing? Batzl moved, Conrad seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favo~ the motion ca~ied. The public heaving was closed. Emmin is: Let me understand. I have some t~ouble understanding the condi .ions listed on page 5. Are you proposing that we adopt? Olsen No. What happened is you didn't get the, those are. Emmin.~s: They don't look like conditions. Olsen Right. Those are the 12, those aren't conditions. Emmin:ls: These are criteria? Plant Noven Olser It lc in. Batzl Olser Conr8 Emmir Batzl Olser Emmin recol~ Where Olsen Emmin Olsen appli very along Emmin you a Olsen and t Emmin comme Conra scYee Olsen lng Commission Meeting bet 6, 1991 - Page 3 Those are the 12 criteria that, those-are the answers to each one. ks like the criteria itself did not get in, Vicki did not get those These are the answers to the questions. Those are the answers to the criteria. : Ah, now you come up with the questions. Is: Okay. So we read the answers and make up the questions. : We'll play Jeopardy. They're in the ordinance, i apologize. I didn't notice that. Is: Okay, so the recommendations are over here. Now in the ,endations you're talking about evergreens in the southwest corner. s the southwest corner? Which way is north.on our map? This is north. ~s: So you want screening where? In this area. It is close to the residents. I know that's the ants that live there but when you drive down Stoughton Avenue, it's /isible in here to where the storage is and there are residents all here. 9o it's an area to try and screen. ~s: So are you figuring, you're putting the screening there because ;sume he'll be parking the trucks in that corner? Where that box is? Right. That's where they're proposing to keep the outside storage U-Hauls. ~s: Oh okay. I see condition 2 you've got, okay. Let's see what its we've got up here. Ladd. : Outside storage we require. We require all outdoor st'orage to be ed? Yes. Conrar Are there any exceptions? ! Olsen~. Not recently. The way it's stated in the ordinance, it's screened outsi~e storage. Conra condi would Olsen comme' : And it is screened not necessarily. You said we could adopt some ions of landscaping but right now our standards for screening is, these meet our current requirements for outside screening? No. It wouldn't be totally screened. Plus when you have 'cial ad3acent to residential, there's supposed to be a 6 foot high Planning Commission Meeting November 6, 1991 - Page 4 opaqu Conra allow Olsen Conra there Olsen it's uphel Conra build Olsen Conra be pu Olsen Emmin Olsen Conra Olsen Gary fence Olsen Gary trees Conra Gary buiid the b we're which probl Every suppl, help. water~ $o by some fence and that's not there either. And so under what rationale could we not set a precedent' by ng this? In fact there's no residential, well. There is residential. Well, I don't want to put words. There are residential houses What's been used in the past is the fact that it's been on 212 and n the BF district but that doesn't, I feel that it should still be : Truck and trailer rental. By screening this 30 Ann, are these ngs there right now? No. : They're not there so really we're right out in the open. $o we~d ting up a fence in that area? No. is: No, that's fence isn't it? Yeah, this already. : I'm talking about where we store. There won't be any fencing. town: Maybe I can help explain this. The whole project now is all the way around. With a chainlink fence. town: There's 7 acres here all completely fenced in. And we have : That's within it? town: This is within it, correct. This will remain. We've got 4 ngs up and full. The fifth slab is poured and we're waiting to put .ilding up now. The snow kind of slowed things up a little so what really asking to do is until we get the next three buildings up, will be hopefully in the next 2 to 3 years, that will eliminate this Dm because then we won't have any room for outside storage. ;hing will be confined. $o what we're trying to do is we're trying to ~ment, we're trying to get some income in there to use that area to Jefray all the costs. We kind of got surprised with that new hsd thing and some things like that that got very expensive on us. renting out some U-Haul trucks and things li-ke that, we can defray if the costs. $o I think what 3o Ann's proposed and correct me if I'm Pl ng Commission Meeting 6, 1991 - Page 5 wron is to put some more evergreens along here to screen that from the res' ial area. Correct? Olse Yeah. Gary town: I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into this deal but the one ing is, when we first planted all the trees down there, we put some 6 and foot evergreens in. Like about a dozen of them and we lost every one. We put 50-3 footers in and we've never lost one. We had the nursery' come n and it's such sandy soil down there that those big ones, they can' get going in that soil. The guy told us we were kind of wasting our mone' by putting those big ones in but now those other ones have been in t 2 years and they're about this tall right now. I realize what we're tryi to do is screen it and I don't want to goof that thing up but I thin it's kind of futile to put in 6 and 7 foot evergreen trees when they not going to last. Like I say, I don't want to goof it up. I agre, whole heartedly with what staff recommends here. But I also want the thin to look nice and I don't want to spend a lot of money on something that n't going to work. We bought a lot of trees from Conky Bros. and we had much trouble they came down and tested the soil and little ones will grow nderful in this. Big ones, they won't. They won't grasp because of the size and because of the soil conditions. We have taken sand as far down you can dig. Does that answer the question on that? Conr. : Yeah it does. So the outside screening doesn't count as scr ing? The outside chainlink doesn't count as screening of this area? I wouldn't consider a chainlink screening. Emmi ms: My recollection there Ladd is the Planning Commission said you had use, recommended opaque fencing around the entire site and then when it to City Council, that was changed from.opaque to chainlink. Am I ri ? O1 Yes. Gary :town: It was changed for the reason of security and fire. If it's all eened in, I mean people could be in there breaking into the units and would ever see it. And another thing is fire. A fire could be goinl in there and until it got higher than the.fence, nobody would know what going on. $o everybody, the Fire Department, the Police Department and ybody agreed that it was a lot better idea to do it this way. To scr it at that time. Conr : Okay. In terms of the trailer truck rental. It is a permitted use. O1 It's a conditional use. Con you : It is a conditional use. And right now Gary you've got those, are pendent on TH 212 for visibility to promote it? Gary n: It sure helps. Plan Nove, Conr~ Gary alone. ing Commission Meeting bet 6, 1991 - Page 6 d: Yeah. You know drive by's your best. grown: Yeah. It's great advertising having a U-Haul truck sitting there where they can see it. Conr synoF Olse' use, But with zd: That's what you want. Staff's position is no. Try to give me a sis. No because? We say no for the outside storage just because ~umber one with the ;he rental of the trailers were kind of on the fence with that one. 3at's where we added the conditions where we feel more comfortable t. Conrad: A couple of things. Detrimental to the neighborhood. Will not be hazardous or disturbing to existing or planned neighborhood uses. Will not be detriment to... I'm not sure where I'm at on this one. If you 'think about it in Chanhassen, Gary brought up an inte'resting point in downtown where we have trailer rental. It's not my favorite site for it. It's got to be someplace. It should be someplace and I don't know how it works here But this should be a place where we can rent trail-ers in Chanhassen so I have a tendency to want to make it work someplace, I just don't know how t works down there and if we've got the right standards. It seems like m logical place to put it but I don't know that I'm real comfort.able yet that we've got the right standards for that. Maybe we do. I guess I'd like to hear somebody else talk about that from that perspective. It's not that ,e shouldn't have trailer rental. Truck and trailer rental in Chan. There are better places for it than on our main street, And is this a good location and do we have, trailer rental should be visible. If you want to compare to a business person, that's a great way to prom'ote it and we don't need to not let that person promote it so the question is, is this the right place and do we have the right standards to guard the neig~)orhood? Maybe someone can persuade me one way or another. Right now I dom t know. Gary right other Emmi~ thing Gary Conra Emmi n for u Conra have you v and I truck :town: We basically have two neighbors. We have A1 Cohen who lives on the corner of 212 and Stoughton there and ~hen Gary Dungey on the- side. IS: You haven't been asked yet. If he asks you a question that's one Otherwise. :town: I thought he was asking a question. I'm sorry. Yeah, I was sort of addressing the Planning Commission. ~s: He's musing. Ladd's in one of his musing. He's'posing questions to answer. : I'm trying to let them persuade me Gary but yeah, I know what you "or residents. Or very close. I guess my concern is I'd want to have sible there. I'd want it to be presented in the best possible way m concerned with 212 traffic. I'd want it. to look good. As much as a trailer place could look and what I don't know is that we've got, I Planting Commission Meeting Novenber 6, 1991 - Page 7 don't know that we've set the standards to make that look go'od and maybe we have That's why I'm sort of saying to these folks... Emmi ge: 3o Ann, we've got a mini-storage place up her~ on TH 5. Did we make it a condition of their approval that they not do outside storage? That s the only other one we've got in Cha~hassen isn't it? Olse Right. That one's totally screened. Totally opaque. Emmir ;s: Opaque fencing? Olser Right. You can't see inside. Emmir s: Okay but there we said no outside storage that would protrude above the opaque fencing? Olser Correct. Emmir s: But did we say no outside storage? Olser That I can't. Emmir s: I seem to remember there was not outside storage that.you could see a~ove but the idea that we didn't Want to see outside storage. Olser Right. Emmir Is: Okay. And now wait, there's another one down at the end of TH 101 there and TH 212. Isn't there some kind of storage in there too? Olse Emmi Olse Emmi Olsen Emmi~ Olsen stand Emm i n Batzl Emmin Batzl bette 1~ IS: 1~ IS: IS: I believe there was not. .rd condition. : : handled as an interim uso. Mike Sorenson's? It's very small. Yes. Is that screened? There's not outside storage there? No. It used to be screened by trees. Now it's not screened. But is there outside storage allowed there? I think that's been a-pretty much Okay. Alright, Brian? Yes. Okay Jeff? It's your turn Brian. Well, I was trying to figure out here whether this wouldn't be Since we don't allow this under the Planning Commission Meeting November 6, 1991 - Page 8 / · · conditional use, what's the difference between us approving this as an interim or conditional use? If we decide to approve the outside storage. Olsen Batzl appro one o Olsen stora Batzl Olsen Batzl appro Olsen 8atzl we're Olsen the c Batzl as a Olsen Batzl Olsen as pa Batzl ordin Olsen Batzl Olsen condi Batzl Olsen Batzl wheth anybo What's the difference with theloutside storage? Yes. Would it make any difference to you or the City if we ,ed it one way or another since it's not a permitted use under either those categories. Well I think you'd have to amend the ordinance to make outside e an interim use. : And not as a conditional use? You could do it either way that you'd want. : I'm just trying to ask. Would we have to amend the ordinance to e this as a conditional use? Outside storage, yes. : But you said in our thing here that if we decide to approve it, just supposed to do it with certain conditions. As an amendment to the conditional use permit. You'd be removing ndition that outside storage would not be permitted. : But in addition to that we'd have to amend the ordinance to do it onditional use? No. : Why not? I talked tha~ over with Roger and no we don't because we can do it t of the conditional use. The original conditional use. : I'm not tracking. It's not one of the uses allowed by .the nce under the conditional use. It's not allowed under interim use. Right. : Why can we do it under the conditional use? As a part of the mini-storage. As an accessory part of the ional use. : It's not an allowed permitted accessory use, No it's not. : What I would like to do, if we're going to look at lhis, is decide r or not we want to allow these outside storage as it applies to ~¥ and not just this particular applicant if we're going to do this. P1 ng Commission Meeting 6, 1991 - Page 9 And I would, I don't know. I don't have enough information about whet r we want to allow other people to do that down in the 8F district. As as the truck trailer rental, I think t'hat's fine. Emmi is: Okay. And so I'm clear on what you just said. You're agreeing bas lly with what the staff report said? It said no outside storage but the k rental you think... Batz : Right but if we're going to allow outdoor storage, I may allow that then I want to change the ordinance to allow everybody to do it. Emmi Is: Yeah, okay. Co : Wait, wait. We don't allow outdoor storage period. Batz : Well it's defined in here but I don't-know where it's used. Co : I thought we did when it was screened but we don't. Emmi Is: We do allow outside storage. That's not accurate' because I-can thin of lots of examples where we do. Co But now I'm starting to question. Emmi Is: But it's always been screened. We have the dock. place over here and had to put up opaque fencing. We had the mini-storage. They had to dc opaque screening in order to have outside storage. Those are the only that come right to mind. Olse All of the other business districts. Emmi Is: Oh, right here off of the end of this street there-was outside le of something. The little street that ends in a cul-de-sac right off ,e end of Kerber. to : $o is this particular to the BF district? Is this just particular 8F district? Olse Yes. The only business district that doesn't have it is the BF dist' ct. ~ Conr : Okay. O1 And I think the reason for that was when we did the BF district we .ially took what was down there and there was an outside storage so. Conr : Yeah, yeah. Emmi~s: Jeff. Farm :es: On the completion of' Phase 3. When you talked about the completion of Phase 3 where you remove outside storage. Do you have a time Plan) Nove) Gary Farm~ sche< Gary Farm~ year~ Gary Batz as a' that F'arm~ truc~ Gary in o~ Farm8 makes conce limit compr conc~ franc them,< obvi~ them that poter trail poter somet on th Sugge Gary wouId one you them way. Farma sayin not b stora there that ing Commission Meeting bet 6, 1991 - Page 10 Brown: When we fill them all up Jeff. kes: Okay, so this is a progressive schedule. ule but it's a progressive situation? It's not a building Brown: Yeah. kes: $o for instance the completion of Phase 3 may not occur for 10 ? Brown: Let's hope not but you'.re right. i: If I could interrupt. My proposal would be to look at allowing it interim use and then saying you can do it for 2 or 3 years but then, right. kes: If at that point when you complete Phase 3, where would these s go? grown: We either have to find a different area for them or come back we have to give them up. One or the other. kes: I would be somewhat concerned about this. I.don't think that sense that you'd want to store that I guess as a temporary use. What rns me is that's sort of an open ended time frame. If there was a on there, give you a limit I could see that as being a sensible Dmise to the problem. The problem's not addressed though.. I'm also rned, in seeing literature from Ryder and U-Haul, part of the hise suggestion in location of the signage that is on the trailers elves is to billboard it in such a way that it's seen from the highway Jsly and U-Haul's very large on the trailers purposedly so if you line ~11 up, they create a signage effect. Versus having one sign up there says U-Haul here, you've got 40 or 50 lined up in a row say ~ially. And in some cases the trucks are quite tall. Big large ~rs. So you get outside of the storage issue a~d it actually becomes ~ially a signage situation. I think as a separate issue,-maybe that's aing to deal with in a signage ordinance that we're looking at. Also ~se issues of what do we do with these outside trailer situations. ~tion anyway. 3town: If you let us put them back there where we want to, then you- 3't have this billboard effect. It would be nice if you'd let us put ~t there along 212. If you don't want us to put one along 212, that's ~y's business. That's your privi'ledge but all we're asking is to keep ~nd keep them back there in that corner where it isn't in anybody's <es: And I'm not listing that as what you're proposing. I'm just ~ potentially if you make a precedent for that, that somebody else may ) trucks and trailers. It may be something else. But in an outside le situation, what is painted on the side of it or ~hatever the intent is, I guess you still get sort of a visual... So I agree here that ~aybe a separate issue to look at and if there's a fixed time, maybe Plan Novel that ther ing Commission Meeting bet 6, 1991 - Page 11 d be the best way to go. That you would eliminate the trailers-out of ...temporary. Emmirgs: Joan. Well how about, sorry to interrupt you but you addressed the t Fuck thing. What about the outside storage? Farm~ <es: I grouped that in there. Emmir is: Oh okay. So you wouldn't be opposed to allowing outside storage either if it was under those same conditions? Farmakes: On a temporary situation. I think based on what's already been appr¢~ed in here. That would be a reasonable sort of thing. Emmirgs: Okay. 3oan, go ahead. AhreTs: As to the truck and trailer rental, the zoning ordinance' perm~ts...I'm not familiar with the site. Gary Brown: It's just east of Gednes Picles half a mile if you're fami ] Jar. AhreTs: Right but I can't picture where that storage, is or anything like that . . Gary 3town: You know where Assumption Seminary is? Ahre; s: Yes. Gary Brown: It's about 3/4 of a mile west of that. Ahrers: I know the general area but I can't picture it. Gary Brown: It's right on the corner there. Ahrers: I think that we should be allowing truck and trailer rental...in our c rdinance to allow it. I'm not sure this is the place it should be but, corre Dt me if I'm wrong but truck and trailer rental was not part of this original conditional use permit. Olse Ahre Olse Ahre Gary spec to dc r Correct. Ahrer Was or was not? r Was not. r : So this is kind of, you started the rental business. Brown: Correct. We were naive in that we didn't know we needed a i~l permit for that because of the fact that it's okay in that district You know it comes underneath your Statute. Has ther.e been any complaints from any residents? Plan~ing Commission Meeting Nove~ 6, 1991 - Page 12 Olse : No. No complaints. Ahre s: Okay. I'm not opposed to the truck and trailer rental there. I thin that Ne have to be careful about screening... However, how many hour. are around... OlseT: It's about 3 homes on the other side of Stoughton. Gary : How many houses are around the mini-storage? Olser: There's one on either side and then it's like 3 or 2 across the str . Ahr : How many trucks and trailers do you have available for rental? Gary own: At the high point I think we've had 15 trucks haven't we? Gary : Average is probably 7. Gary own: Average 7. Trailers, 1 or 2. Is there any there now? Gary : No. Ahre : And they're ail just mixed in with your other outside storage? The ts and the construction' trailer. It's all mixed in together? Gary n: We try to keep it confined to one end. But you're right. No, no, really. The outside storage is over to one side and the U-Haul we keep n the other side because the U-Haul area we keep plowed out in the wi . $o they are pretty much segregated right now. Ahre : But you can see both the outside storage and the rental trucks from residential area? O1 Ye~. AhYe' : And the outside storage, it was there when the City Council appr just a chainlink fence around it? O1 No it was not. Ahre : But they knew that was. Olse No. It was a specific condition that there be .no outside storage. Ahre : Nhat was the purpose of Planning Commission asking fo? an opaque fenci g if there wasn't going to be any outside storage or anything out? Olsen Nell the ordinance requires 6 foot high fences between residential and c,mmercial. And then just to screen the buildings. Batzl : It has residential on 3 sides. PlanTing Commission Meeting 6, 1991 - Page 13 Emmi ~s: I think we thought the fence looked better than a collection of bull, ings. Basically. It was kind of a hot item as I recall and I think it k nd of came down to aesthetics as I remember but that was a long time ago. Ahre' : It's hard for me to believe that even evergreens there are actu~ iy 9oin9 to do anythin9 to screen the outside storage...really want to t' and screen it. Batz. : In 20 years it will. Ahre' : And I can understand that the purpose of your storage facility is to st e...I understand that and I don't have any problem with that but I woul like to see if we approve this that there be-a limit, a time limit on how this outside storage can go on. I think that you may want to for about the landscaping, at least the 6 foot sized trees. I unde and his point there too. He wants to plant a smaller type of tree, I'd along with that. But I don't think that if we do recommend approval of t outdoor storage, that we put a time limit of like 2 to 3 years. And then ou've got... Emmi Is: I guess my feeling about this is that there shouldn't be outside le at that site. I don't think there should be outside storage at any of t ,se mini-storage facilities unless they're completely screened. But as as the kinds of things you're storing outside right now, I don't real think, there's not that much of a difference between what you're stor outside and the U-Haul trucks. I have no problem at all with the truc rental thing. I think it fits in with what you're doing hand in gl and I don't have any problem with that at all. 8ut I guess the r that I don't want to just, I don't want to step over that threshold of o~ de storage even though storing a few boats and a few motorhomes seen pretty much the same thing as having trucks sitting there, I don't know it's going to be next week. I don't know if it's going to be a pile tires or what the hell it's going to be but I think the whole idea behi the mini-storage is, we're building spaces for people to store thin! in in a neat fashion and I don't want to see stuff outside. $o I'm absol tely opposed to any outside storage. Like I say. Batzl : Unscreened. Emmi s: Unscreened. If he wants to put up opaque fencing around that come so it can't be seen from anywhere, then as long as it doesn't stick up ab ye the fencing, I don't have a problem with it. Since we've done that )ther places in town, I would say we could do it down there. Right now I don't think our ordinance would allow him to have outside storage perio So I think we'd have to change the ordinance first. I'd want to know etter why we don't have to change the ordinance before we allow it. The oily other thing that would concern me about the truck rental I guess would be the scale. I want to know something about, you know 15 trucks and 2 tra lets doesn't bother me at all. In fact I wouldn't care if it was more .hah that but if it's 150 or if they suddenly get to be real big truck. , that's a totally different thing. And so I don't know how we could set a y limit on scale but can you give me some idea how big an.operation you s,~e? How many vehicles maximum you'll be parking? Planting Commission Meeting Nov4 6, 1991 - Page 14 Gary many goi n: It's a type of business that'you've never going to get very them there because they always have to be rented. They have to be somewhere. Emmi Is: Yeah. If they're all sitting there you're in trouble.. Gary : That's right. If they're all sitting there, we're not going . to b, renting any longer because U-Haul isn't going to want us as a dealer. I car see where you're coming from. Why don't you put a cap on it of 20 truc~ and 4 trailers. I can live with that. Emmir ~s: Okay. Gary some own: And put a cap on it of, I'd like to ask for 4 years but said 3 years on a conditional use permit. That'd be great too. Emmi ~s: What's the biggest truck you rent? Gary own: 26 foot. Emmi is: Okay. I guess if I was going to put caps on it I'd want to say no t ks bigger than 26 feet and at any one time there wouldn't be more than 0 trucks and 4 trailers. Timewise I don't see any reason to put a lim I don't have any interest in limiting the U-Haul. Because again I thin the business fits together. If you decide not to do-it later, that's fine That's up to you. I don't see any reason on limiting that. I think what hey were talking about limiting was tbs outside storage and maybe to limit because you're saying that once all the buildings are built you won't be ng it anymore anyway. But since I'm-opposed to outside storage that not an issue for me. Conr~ : But you're not opposed to outside storage that's screened? Emm Is: I'm not opposed to outside storage if it's screened. Conr : ~re you opposed to outside storage in the BF district? Emmi is: Yeah, we'd have to consider that. See that's why I think we've got look at the ordinance. We've got to look at the BF section of the ordi lnce and decide if we're going to do that and I think we've got to do that )efore we act on this if we want to approve it. If the ma3ority of peopl here want to do that, I think we've got to look at the ordinance fir Conr : That makes a lot of sense. Emmi Is: So I guess, I don't know. Co : It sure makes sense to me that this is the area where we do some of t se things. I just don't know that we have everything in place. I don want to set a precedent for bad stuff. I'm concerned a little bit. This '.s, where Gary has his place, I like that area but it's, for this. Howev;r, if he was to the east by the bluffs in our BF district, I don't want '.t there so I've got a problem with this. It's great where you-are I Plan ng Commission Meeting 6, 1991 - Page 15 thln from our standpoint. I hope from Chaska's standpoint. Maybe not but it's ill some real logical things for these multi uses. But I just don't know hat we have everything in place to set the right direction for a ndation right now. I guess I'd kind of like to table it until we can staff do some, a little bit more backgrounding now that they know whet we're coming from and maybe bring you back again Gary. 'It's probably deal more with the ordinance than with you. Just so we're mot setting nt for other folks. That's the wrong way to go. Emmi is: Well, do you want to make a motion? Cent : I move that we table this. Batz : Second. Emmi Is: It's been moved and seconded to table this. Is there any d :sion? Ahre : We're going to table both? Emm Is: That's the motion. Co : Yeah. I think a lot of interrelated things. Gary's in operation r now doing. Emmi Is: Well we recognize that he's doing both of the'se things ~ight mow but ,ere's not, nobody's going to go chase him around while we decide this Gary ,wn: Right now it's pretty well hidden because...snow. : How does that affect what your plans are currently? The two dif' ent issues. Gary :town: To do what? Far : Outside storage and the truck proposal that you have. The dela Gary :town: It doesn't make any difference. Emmi is: He's doing them both. Ahr : What are we going to ask the staff to do concerning the trucks ther Cent : I don't know. I just want us to review the use of outside storage in BF district period and how can we make it, how can we find outside stet le but screened. ~hr : I understand that part. I'm talking about the truck trailer rent ...an approved activity. Emmi s: Well isn't that outside, well yeah I see. Planning Commission Meeting Nove~er 6, 1991 - Page 16 Conra know stuff Batzl too. Ahren Batzl Ahren Emmi n that like reall Ladd condi condi we ma Conra Emmin Conra for t we're don't Farma there up fr it is regar Batzl Wheth a loo Farma open devel Emm i n OUT a Gary Exact U-Hau Emmin only : That's not outside storage. That's a retail service and I don't ow it works Gary. I don't understand it. Gary's got to put the inside the screen. : It actually fits within the definition of outside storage though Having your trucks parked there. : But our ordinance permits it. : I know, which is interesting. : So why do we have to table that part? s: Because I think what, at least what I think Ladd is saying is :toting, you're putting these trucks out. Yes it's permitted, it's retail use. It's a conditional use that's allowed in this area but what you're doing is stori.ng a bunch of trucks outside and I think ants to make sure that we've got proper conditions for this ional use before we just say okay, go ahead and we don't 'have any ions in place right now. We may want to screen somehow however, or not. : Or we may not. s: Yeah, exactly. : And what staff wrote down here, there are no specific standards uck trailer rental. General ones and it sort Of seems strange that going to put a fence around truck trailer rental. Well i.t's there. I know. (es: There are other uses...of that elsewhere. Not in this area but are some other areas but basically it's used as a form of advertising nt by the road in town here. In parking lot. Retail parking lot so that kind of bothers me that there isn't anything at all on there lng... : Well I think we can look at that under the general 12 conditions. r that's proper to allow them to park right next to the road and take at that. es: I didn't say it was improper. It's just where, it's sort of an nded thing. It's a retail parking lot or out by the highway in a ped area. What is the proper area... Is: Well I guess basically., it sounds like we need more time to get :t together. ~rown: One comment I would like to make is what Joan brought up here. what my feeling is is that we shouldn't be here even addressing the thing because that's permitted in this district. Is: No, it's a conditional use and what' that means, right now you're llowed to do that once we say go ahead and do that, 'the truck rental PlanTing Commission Meeting Nove~ 6, 199J - Page 17 and will have to do it under these conditions. It's not a permitted use. It's allowed as a conditional use. That's different. Is that right? Olser Emmir if it do. as per do co : Yes. Is: Okay. Okay there are permitted uses. That means if something, 's just a permitted use in the district, it's something that you can right? Now that doesn't mean you don't have to get approvals on of it but still it's something that you can do without asking any 'on from the City. On a conditional use, you have to say I want to s and then the City says, yes you can do it but only if you do it these conditions. And that's the difference between a permitted and onal use and this is a conditional, allowed conditional use. Gary own: Well why don't you write us and let us know. Alright, thanks a 1 . Emmi is: We've got a motion pending here. The motion is to table the enti thing and take a look at the ordinance. Let's take a look at the ordi and this proposal together and get something decided at our next meet g. It's not that big a deal I think. in moved, Batzli seconded to table amending Conditional Use permit and directing staff to review the ordinance regarding outside storage BF district. All voted in favor and'the motion carried. Ahre : I'd be interested in Roger's explanation allowing that. else We've done that before where we've had certain uses as part of the cond ional use that we've allowed. $o we've done it before but I'll get some1 lng in writing. Emmi Is: Yeah, it seems real arbitrary because what's the sense of listing what ~an be a conditional use. We might as well write down anything we want. O1 1 Right. I agree. Emmin is: I don't get that. Far ten es: I don't understand the issue of outside storage. Ne've got the thing up here in the parking lot across from the mall. Batzl : Merlyn's? Farma es: Across from Merylyn's. Outside. There are motorcycles. There are t'ailers out there and so on. Conra : It's illegal Farina like Conra es: That's what I'm saying. That's a retail parking tn item that really needs to be. : Nobody has enforced that issue right there~ iot so it seems Plann Novem Farina in Sa 100 m retai Ahren Farina Contra Ahron Farma parke ng Commission Meeting ,er 6, 1991 - Page 18 ~es: But if somebody came in here and wanted to put in 100. I think ,age they have a huge. U-Haul situation by the freeway and they'vE got ~ybe trucks lined up along the highway and it has a visual, not only impact but a real environmental visual impact. : What's wrong with Merlyn's though,~ It's a hardware store. es: They have different rental items. Log splitters. Motorcycles. : It's just terrible. ' See I don't see any problem with that. es: I didn't say there was a problem with it. It's just that it's out in a retail parking lot and parking space. It seems kind of an iricon istent use. What if they park a billboard sign? Conra : They could keep an'RV out there. They could keep a boat out there It just could be a collage of stuff. That's not what you want on your ain street. It's just not right. I don't think anybody's playing. ghren : I don't think we know what we want. 8atzl : I think if you asked most of the residents, they all go there and use t e stuff and they like it there. Whether visually you like it is secon ary to the question to most of the people that frequent downtown Chanh ssen. Conra : They like to see cement mixers on main street? Batzl : I don't think they care. Ahren : I don't think it bothers anybody. I've heard anybody outside of the P arming Commission say that offends them. Conra : Ah, I have. My neighbors have said that. Farma~es: I think the other problem of what is permitted use. If I come in he e and you refuse me one thing and I can point that out across the stree , what is the. ConraJ: Nell I'd kind of like the Dinner Theatre to store their props out on West 78th Street too. You know it's not just a few things. A few things don't bother me and I think that's why nobody has really pushed that But I think if everybody did that, then we've got a problem. Emmi is: Are there regulations on outside storage in the downtown business distr ct? Batzl : It's not allowed. Emmin is: It's absolutely not allowed? Olse~ The CBD. Yeah. Plann: Novem~ ng Commission Meeting er 6, 1991 - Page ! 9 Aanen: on: And the industrial areas. Because people would have trailers, const' uction trailers that's supposed to be screened too. Emmin! s: Okay. That's a sensible rule too. Let's go onto agenda item 2. We ca~ take this up again when we look at outside, storage for Gary Brown. PUBLIi HEARING: ZONINi ORDINANCE AMENDMENT CONCERNING MOORING OF WATERCRAFT. Publi, Present: me Address Berni Schneider 7501 West 77th Street Emmin s: I think this is pretty self explanatory. It is a public hearing. Olsen Yeah, they're here for that. Emmin is: Okay. Did you want to be heard on this item? Olsen Maybe I should explain what it is. Emmin is: Yeah, go ahead 3o Ann. Olsen I think he's somewhat familiar with this but what you'll be doing is am :nding the recreational beachlot ordinance to add the following: No water:raft shall be moored, docked or stored in the dock setback zone in such way that the watercraft or any part thereof extends, across the exten ed side lot lines of any lakeshore site. This is to prevent boats from eing docked in front of somebody else's lakeshore property. Emmi s: Well there's a little more to this isn't there 3o Ann? Olse That amends a different chapter that you don't deal with. That's amend n9 Chapter 6. Emmi s: Well who's going to be looking at that? Olse The City Council will be doing that one. Emmi is: Okay. So we're only looking at. Olse You're only looking at the zoning chapter. Emmi is: And this other part will go in front of the, has that already been ,assed by the City Council? Olse No. It has not. Emmi is: Olse' When will that be heard by them? In the next meeting in November. Or December. Plann Noweml Emmin: Berni, Stree in th too m but I what reali Emmi n ~umme in fr us to looki are k .ng Commission Meeting ~er 6, 1991 - Page 20 ~s: Alrioht sir, if you just tell us your name and address· Schneider: My name is Bernie Schneider. I live at 7501 West 77th · That's on the southwest corner of kake Minnewashta. I saw the ad Chanhassen Villager regarding the hearing tonight'and apparently not ny other recreational beachlot participants are interested in this came here to find out what action is going to be taken tonight and should direct our members of the association to do. I did not ie that it pertained only to the setback requirements. is: Bernie we had at least one case I know of that came up this and it was on Minnewashta where somebody actually moored their boat ,nt of somebody else's property. Those concerns wound up motivating take a look at some of this stuff. And the City Council will be ~g at a specific rule against that. Then also making sure that boats ~pt in front of the property they're supposed to be in front of. That' really the intent here. Berni Schneider: Well I have nothing further to say. Emmin s: Okay, thank you. Berni Schneider: Thank you. Emmin Is: Did you have something you wanted to' talk about on.this issue? Okay Alright, is there a motion then to close the public hearing? - Ahre moved, Batzli seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favo~ and the motion carried. The public hearing Nas closed. Emmir Is: Anybody got anything on this? Ahrer : I just have one question. This extended side lot line. :It talks about extended side lot lines. How-far out does that go? EmmirDs: Until they run into some other ones I think. Olser I depends if it's meandered or unmeandered lake too I think. Some of t~ lot lines actually stop. Eremites: See it's weird and you can't understand it but in practical application it's not a problem because nobody moors their boat in the middle of the lake. Ahre~s: I 'm just talking about. Emmirgs: Yeah, I don't know. I think you run those lot lines out, people moor their boats close enough to shore so they can get at them. $o in any appl ;ation is pretty easy to figure out. It's only when you get further out at things get really, and people aren't using that part of the lake. Ahre~s: Nobody moors their boats. Planning Commission Meeting November 6, 1991 - Page 21 Emmi n $o we Farma mar k. Emmi n Farma Emmin going Ahren Emmin Farma Ahrer 8atzl Ahrer Emmir he Ii Ahrer Farina to we Conra Batzl Conl-8 Emmir for c basic Minne my pr peopl the F 8atzl of a this want your in f~ you'r ~s: In the middle. Somebody will probably do it sooner or later. 11 have to be talking about that too. 8ut I think Joan. es: I wasn't aware that it extended out into the lake...high water .s: Why? We're talking about the side lot line~. les: That doesn't extend out beyond. is: What we're saying is, if you're going to moor a boat, you're to do it in front of your own property.. : Why? ~s: Why? Okay iet me ask you a question. es: So somebody doesn't go in front of somebody eise. Who owns the iake? PubIic. Yeah. ;s: We'iI go moor aii of our boats in front of Ladd's house. Whether es it or not. ...but who owns the lake? ~es: ...deal with that when you're dealing with the City in regards land and access to a wetland... J: I'm surprised we have that control. i: That we can do this?. That we can do this. Is: We can. We regulate docks in the water. We have setback zones · lcks. I can't put my dock out across my neighbor's property. But ~lly 3gan I think you're trying to keep the peace here .... Lake ~ashta in front of somebody else'$ property. It was not in front of Dperty. It didn't bother me at all. I think that's a bad idea. That ~ who, that property was up for sale and the sale wasn't closed but srson who was buying the property was real upset about it. i: It's a landowner 's right kind of thing. A riparian's right kind real conservative which stuns me because this person isn't normally ~onservative but you're paying for the property taxes on the lake. You :o be able to see the lake. You want to be able to have access to ~ock. Have access to the shoreline and if people start parking boats Dnt, you don't have the rights that you think you're obtaining when ~= paying to live on the lake. Planning Commission Meeting Nove~er 6, 1991 - Page 22 Ahren stop Emmin Ahren Conl-a front Emmin ConYa Stori they Batzl They might it. Ahreo Batzl Ahre~ moore Conra Ahre~ Conra anybc was 8 Emmi~ : As long as they don't get carried away and say that people can't heir boats and fish off the sides of their boats. s: It doesn't say that. : I know. I know that. : What's a parallel? What if somebody decided to store their car in of your house? ~s: For the winter. Or for the year. : What would you think of that? I think that's very similar. ~g a car in front of your house which is illegal. They can't do it or an't even park a car 24 hours can they? : But you know so they park it there every other day all winter. :nme and they move it a little bit so they're inside the law. That be an irritant to you. If it was a real junky car you might not like I understand that but... Why? The road is a public. Parking a junky car in front of your house versus having a boat out. Let's not say a junky car. Let's say a nice car. A Mercedes. That wouldn't bother me. Really? See I think it would. I think it would bother almost if there was one car that they didn't know who it belonged to that ways out in front of your house. I think'that would drive you wild. is: Actually the part that we're looking at, the part that we're looki ~g at here isn't even that part. The only part that we've got to pass is ara we going to have, when people put, whatever they're permitted to do, as ycJ extend their lot lines out into the lake, whatever they're permitted to dc with watercraft in front of their property, they have to do it within those extended lot lines so they're not going over onto the neighbors lot. line That seems eminently reasonable to me. This one doesn't even say you ~ve to own those boats. That's the part that the City Council's doin: Batz enou~ this right lines : Let me ask just one very dumb question. Are we knowledgeable ~ to know which the lot lines are going as they approach the lake that doesn't impede on somebody's? Well we're just looking at beachlot ? Are all of our beachlots, do all of them have relatively straight as they approach the lake? Is one of them at a 45 degree angle? Emmi~ ~s: ...that wouldn't be a problem. Plan~ Noveff, Batzl Ahren Olsen There more will Lng Commission Meeting )er 6, 1991 - Page 23 : There should be a rule of reason here. : The regulations sometimes causes more problem. The part you're acting on is just with the recreational beachlots. $ a section, the identical section that's going to be going under nder the water, boats and waterways section of the ordinance so this )e applying to all lots. Not just recreational beachlots. Batzl~: that ~e the 1 the c Emm i n Batzl have Farm4 Emmil excep Farma Batzl Emm i u 2 her Batzl pass Conr8 Emmi~ Batz] apprc read All ~ PUBL! ZONI~ LOTS. 30 Ar publi That's right and that's what kind of scares me from the standpoint' have no clue what these lot lines look like and if it's approaching ~ke at a 45 degree angle, you can park your boat way out in front of 5her guy's house anyway. What are we really doing? is: Again you're looking at. : There have got to be a lot of lots around the lakes that don't 90 degree tangent. kes: Mine's a trapezoid. Goes down to the lake. IS: I doubt that there are a lot of them. I'm sure they're the ion rather than the rule. kes: I'd say you're right. : I don't live on the lake in Chanhassen so. Is: We don't have to pass on that. Is there a motion on item number : I move we approve the section we're supposed to be looking at to long to the City Council. ~: I'll second that. is: Any discussion? moved, Conrad seconded that 'the Planning Commission recommend val of an amendment to Section 20-263 by adding subparagraph (16) to as follows: ) watercraft shall be moored, docked or stored in the dock ~tback zone in such a way that the watercraft or any part thereof ~tends across the extended side lot lines of any lakeshore site. ~ted in favor and' the motion carried. HEARING: ) ORDINANCE AMENDMENT CONCERNING NONCONFORMING USES, STRUCTURES AND Olsen presented the staff report. Chairman Emmings called the hearing to order, even though there was no one present in the room. Planr~ng Commission Meeting Nove~er 6, 1991 - Page 24 Conra favor Emm i n Batzl Do I from? someh Olsen Batzl fring to us Olsen Emmin Batzl Emmin Conra Batzt Conra Batzl Olsen opens Batzl leave Olsen from. Batzl stuff Emmin struc Batzl Emmin Batzl bothe moved, Emmings seconded to close the public heating. All voted in and the motion carrled. The public heating was closed. s: Is there any discussion about this? : Yeah, can you attack a non-conforming use? If I buy the property. et the benefit of the non-conforming from the person I buy the stuff Is that like by State law that's allowed? Can we distinquish it w by City Code? What? : Like for example. By way of example, junkyard down in business . Somebody comes in and buys that from the guy. Can they continue it as a 3unkyard? Yes. .s: As long as he continues to use it as a junkyard. : Or salvage operation. Whatever it is. !s: I think so. It goes with the land. Is that a State law that they can do that? It goes with the land, not with the owner. : It goes with the land. And as long as it's been continued. You know if it hasn't been for a year. : How about can't we make it just for one day so that if a person It's always been one year. I don't know where that one year came : One year just seems like an awful long time for some of this ~s: I live on a non-conforming lot and I have.a non-conforming ute on that lot. : I'm talking non-conforming use. s: I'm not a non-conforming use. Just structure and lot. : Structure and lots I don't have a problem with. It's the use that s mo. Planing Commission Meeting November 6, 1991 - Page 25 Olse We discussed before, I'm trying to remember what but 'we had shorter t than the year. Like docks where we've had illegal docks and people are, )r with the recreational beachlo.ts. Emmi s: Was that a season instead of a year? O1 not Yeah, instead of a year. So I could check into that. Whether or could reduce that. year. I'm not sure. Batzl : Do we say anything about rebuilding or anything like that? O1 Yes. Bat. z : Where was that? 0 Of the uses? Batz : Yeah. Olse That's under (e). Batz : (e). More than 50~. Con : 3o Ann, under 20-73(b). We have'a 75~ factor. Where did that come rom? Why is that the right number? Olse Car was Well it's what we've had in the past. That ki.nd of came from Beach and it comes out to 11,500 square feet and I think that that nd of the average in Carver Beach and they just picked. Emmi ts: Carver Beach and probably Red Cedar Point would be another place whet that would apply. zoni in : I move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the ordinance concerning nonconforming uses, structures, lots as shown ~hment gl of the memo dated October 10, 1991. Ahr : Second. 199~ i moved, Ahrens seconded that the Planning Commission recommend ,al of zoning ordinance amendment concerning nonconforming uses, .res and lots as shown in Attachment #l of the memo dated October lO, Ail voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBL: HEARING: ORDINANCE AMENDMENT CONCERNING BUS SHELTERS AND PARK AND RIDE LOTS. Cha n Emmings called the public hearing to order. Ahrel moved, Emmings seconded to close the public hearing. All voted i.n and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. Co : So we're allowing, what have we done for bus shelters and park and ride lots? We haven't set any standards for that. $o we're assuming that Plann ng Commission Meeting NovemJ,er 6, 1991 - Page 26 the o' dinance is, the zoning ordinances have already set the standards that will ,e followed which would include landscaping? $o whatever's on the books right now will apply to the park and ride? Emmin ~s: Well that's a conditional use though. Olsen Yes. But it goes through the site plan part of the conditional use permi . Emmin ~s: Bus shelters and bus benches will be a permitted use on city prope ty as I understand it but the park and ride is a conditional use. Olse, No. Both of them are conditional use. Conra : And what are the conditions? Olsen Yeah, right. You're right. We do not have any. Conr : I guess, the only thing that just jumped out at me was we're going to park and ride. Does that mean we don't have any conditions for that Park and ride is great but do we want it certain places? Do we want it t look a certain way? Are there places where we don't want it? $o I , I just didn't feel this was complete. Ols That's a good point. We can come back with them. Con : I think we should. Ols Because that's helpful when we actually go through the conditional use ;trait, that's the first thing I look for are those specific cond ions. Conr : And maybe there aren't any but I guess I just want to challenge star to say, where could these be and what would we want and are there spec ic conditions for the particular zone it's. in. Emmi Is: Okay. Anybody else have any comments on this? Batz i: Did we want to actually have the farmers market as a-conditional use not as a potential interim use? Do we want people to come back in from ime to time on the farmers market concept rather than just give them a b nket one as a conditional use? Aane what Batz year anyw. Emmi Aane' pack, son: We could talk about that under the temporary use. It's kind of memo addresses. i: I guess I would rather on a farmers market thing allow it for a See how it goes and give them a temporary. It would be seasonal ¥. I just don't know that it's propoer as a'conditional use. gs: If people want to set up a market like-that, who does it? son: That's what the whole temporary use thing that I have in the t. We're trying to address those types of uses. Planning Commission Meeting November 6, 1991 - Page 27 Olsen Emmin Olsen ~n~n in pl Emmin then? Conra Batzl Conra The farmers usually. ~s: Do they have to get a license from the City to do it? No. ;on: ~ce . That's what we're trying to address. We don't have a mechanism That's what we're trying to address. s: Okay, let's go back to this one. Is there a motion to table this : I move to table this. ' Second. moved, Batzli seconded to table the ordinance amendment adding prov lots PURL ZONIh APPRC Chair Conra favo~ Emmir Olser the s o~e C Conra Olser Emmirls: Olser Emmir s: Conrad: Batz]i: per m i t? Olser has Batz isions concerning essential services, bus shelters and park and ride All voted in favor and the motion carried. HEARING: ORDINANCE AMENDMENT CONCERNING.DEVELOPMENT CONTRACTS FOR SITE PLAN /ALS. nan Emmings called the public hearing to order. d moved, Emmings seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. IS: Tell me what number 6 is about. I've not read it. It's just making it clear that you have to record the conditions of .te plan approval so it stands with the property. I think this was F Paul's that he wanted. fl: $o it's on record? Yeah. Who's required to do the recording? We took over a lot of that. We record it. We charge them and have Roger record it. Okay. Sounds good to me. Hakes sense. 30 Ann, is the contract supposed to be recorded or just the -. The permit is. We have a form, it's a site plan permit form that t e conditions listed on it. It's not really a development contract. ii: But you call it a contract in your memo. " Plann ng Commission Meeting Novem ,er 6, 1991 - Page 28 Ols~n Yeah. Batzl : You're talking about the permit? Olsen Right. There's a copy of what it would look like in your packet. It's :alled a site plan permit. Batzl : How does this grab you though. A lot of times people come in and the s of the property is contingent on approval of whatever by us. So then n order to proceed the owner of the property's going to sign it but the tual developer won't have signed it. What's the effect of the first own 's no longer involved in the transaction having something on file? Olse I believe as long as it's recorded against the property, again it goes ith whoever owns it. Emmi ,s: How would they get it off there to do somethi'ng else to their pr ty? How would they do that? , Ahr : It's real tough on registered property' You-have to go through an ex 'ye procedure called a...to get this off. It costs about $1,500.00. Emmi ~s: So it would be fine in the situation where the project went just ri along but if it stalled out and you've got this report, now you've got 1 kinds of restrictions on the property and you want to put it to a d ent use. And those not only are they involved but they take a lot of time Right? Ahre : You'd have to have a lawyer draft a document to take it off. Some . kind f agreement between the parties to remove that. On abstract p y. On torrens property, you'd have to have, you'd have to go t h probably a proceedings... Emmi s: Which is a judicial proceedings and you have to put-the people on noti . That sounds pretty cumbersome. O1 But it's for a site plan so you want. those conditions to stay with owns it. . · Emmi ~s: I guess what we're saying is, what about the situation where it goes ough the site plan and then it just never gets built. Now somebody else ~ts to do something different out there. Ahr : Maybe the timing of the recording should be specified. Batz i: How about before a building permit is issued? Once yOU know it's goin~ to happen. Ahre : Yeah. Wait to record it until it's a done deal. olse : Yeah you wouldn't sign off on the building permit though until it was 'ded. Batz i: Right but that seems to me like a good time to do it. Planing Commission Meeting NovelS>er 6, 1991 - Page 29 Emmin Olsen Batzl Olsen somet put i Emmi~ shall Batzl Emmi~ Ahrer Emmir somet Olser Emmir recor is i~ Olser Emm i r Olser until Emmir Aaner reco¥ sign TeCOT Ahrer I me~ Olser Emmir they Batz] ~s: Do many people pull a building permit and then not build? I don't believe so. Not for commercial sites. : Does it make sense to have a timing in there Jo Ann? If it's something that's difficult to get off, yes. I think that's ,ing we can just do administratively. I don't know if it's, where you z in here, the timing. is: Well you could do it just like Brian says. It says the permit be recorded against the title to the property. : Prior to building permits being issued by the'City or. is: Or contemporarneously. : Simultaneously, yeah. ~s: It shall be recorded when the building permit is issued or ing like that because we've got control of. when it gets recorded. So how did you say that again? s: Just say that second sentence in there. The permit shall be ~ed against the title to the property at the time the building.permit sued. Or submitted? ;s: What do you mean submitted? Well I was going to say we wouldn't sign off on the building permit it was recorded. ,s: But you're doing the recording so you know it's done. son: You have to, it takes a couple days to actually physically d it. You send it down and then before it gets.registered. If you them off at the same time, there's no guarantee that it's done and ded . 3: It's not that important that it be recorded on that same day. n you could put it in the mail. So issued, okay. Is: What's your concern? You want to make sure it's recorded before issue the building permit? son: Yeah. . i: Prior to issuance of the building building. Planning Commission Meeting November 6, 1991 - Page 30 Aanen Conra Ahren Batzl they' Ahren Emmin wante fact you r Olsen Batzl admin but ~ Emmi~ front Batzl the t Conra Batzl appli Olser Emmir issue Olser Emmir ConT8 Emmir Conra Batzl attac site 1991 the t wrote ~on: Right. : Prior is the word, yeah. That could occur then at any time. But they're going to handle it administratively though because e going to file it. -' As long as they understand. But then you could put anythihg in there because that's what they d anyway. I guess maybe what you should do is be sensitive to the :hat you're going to cause somebody a lot of expense and trouble if .~cord them early and try and'record them as late as you.can. Okay. : Are we protecting the public by 3ust letting them do it stratively? Do we need to? Do we' trust them? Well, we trust them ,at happens when these guys aren't here? is: Well, all I want to know is do they plan to moor any boats in of my house. That's all I care about. : Nell Ladd, do you want to put something in there that'talks about ming of record or are you comfortable? ; Yeah. I think we should. [: I would like to say that we record it when the building permit is ;d for then. At time of building permit application, okay. is: How does that typically work? How long before the permit is I? Two weeks or so. Is: Okay, that makes sense. Alright. : Do you want a motion then? is: I sure do. : Brian, go ahead. ~: I move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the ~ed zoning ordinance amendment requiring development contracts for :lan approval as shown in Attachment ~1 in the memo dated October 29, ,ith the change in the second sentence of. Section 20-122 reading, at '.me the building permit application is made. However the beck you that down. However we said that. That's the jist. Plann Novem Emmin secon Batzl appro site 1991 the t the m APPRO Minut CITY Emmin I gue just Ahren Olsen Ahren Olse~ Conra 4 con relat ours? Olser lot. Ahrer Olser Plant just elf mc Emmir Batzl Tues¢ knowe Aaner Emmir .rig Commission Meeting ,er 6, 1991 - Page 31 's: Okay, I think I know what you meant' so I think I'll go ahead and it. Is there any discussion? . moved, Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission recommend ,al of zoning ordinance amendment requiring development contracts for lan approval as shown in Attachment #1 in the memo dated October 29, ith the change in the second sentence of Section 20-122 reading, at me the building permit application is made. All voted in favor and )tion carried. /AL OF MINUTES: Chairman Emmings so noted the Planning Commission ~s dated October 2, 1991. :OUNCIL UPDATE. ~s: We've got a report from our Planning Director who's convalescing ;s. If everybody knows from a little 'surgery on his esophagus, let's :ake a quick look and see if anybody's got any questions. Where's the Lundgren? It got approved. : It did finally? Yes. : What I didn't understand in the report, they objected to. 3 of the Jitions. Ultimately the City Council voted to approve all 3 requests ~d to the Lundgren proposal. Whose requests were those? Lundgrens or They backed up staff and the Planning Commission. The 3 trees per The road width. Providing utilities to the adjacent properties. : When do they plan breaking ground? Actually they're going for a grading permit, trying at the next ng Commission meeting. They're not going to actually grade. They're' trying to get the permit before all these other regulations go into The landscaping and tree p~eservation thing, now. : What happened to that? gs: They pulled that and then they were going to consider it on ay and then there were no Minutes taken and it sounds like nobody what happened. ~on: It was finally resolved. ~s: How was it resolved? Plann No,em 01sen Emmin, Olsen Emmin Batzl Ahren Olsen Batzl that Olsen Batzl curre Aanen Emmin Well you s Ahren Emmi n buyin out a into Con'r8 Olser Ahrer Olser Emmir Batzl step Ahrer Emmir Batzl comm6 ng Commission Meeting er 6, 1991 - Page 32 They approved it but not with the 3 trees per lot. s: How many? One. They were just concerned with the money.. s: But it's so little. : It's such a joke. : That's ridiculous. They said it was going to be extra $1,500.00. : You've got to be kidding? It's $100.00 for a tree. You pay for vet 30 years. Boy that's a lot of money. People were quoting $250.00 per tree plus $500.00 for seed and sod. : Well the seed and sod's already in there right? That's in our t. Did they take that out? on: No, but you have to pay for it yourself. s: Well that all depends on what you negotiate with your builder. ctually it's not. You pay for it. They give you an allowance but ill pay for it. : You can get big trees for $125.00 here in Chanhassen. Is' And it all gets rolled in. It's easier I would say for if you're your first house to have it in the mortgage than it would be to go ~d buy them separately because you're so strapped when you're getting :omething. Well okay. : Did Dick Wing resign? Yeah he was a little frustrated by the whole thing. : How did the vote' go? I think it was pretty unanimous except for Dick. IS: We're sure all out of step. : Well, potentially not. Maybe there's 4 people that are out of a little bit higher up than us. 3: That's right Brian. That's the way to look at it. gs: No it isn't because we're up for. i: I've got another couple years. I'm hoping they forget that Planning Commission Meeting November 6, 1991 - Page 33 Emmi n our . Ahren out w that Emm i n won ~ t Batzl are s them aYen' Rottl have. Emm i n Ahren $100 you Batzl them next whate Ahre~ Batzl It's Schoc Emmin Ahrer Emm i ~ Batzl Olser Batzl Olser Batzl 1992 Olser ;s: I think that was a wise and prominent decision on'the part of : I'm going to sit in the back of the room and put a little recorder en you have your interview. Tell them about the all the decisions ~ave come up in the past. IS: I'm going to give them my name, rank and serial number and I answer any other question. : You know the interesting thing is, if'the people buying the house vy enough, they can get the builder to put them in there and include n the mortgage. The problem is that most first time homeowners savy enough to do that. Builders will, and like for example nd. If I had gone.and said put in a couple extra trees, they would They would have charged me for it but I just didn't know any better. ~s: And it's easy for them to do it. So easy for them. .. : Yeah. They buy them in bulk and it's probably even cheaper than )0 a piece. I'm sure they get them for nothing. Well not nothing but ~OW. : It's obvious they're buying them wholesale because they're buying n such volumes and we guys go to the local. Did you guys know that .o the local, what is it the Phillips 66 gas station, Big Red or ~er on CR 4 burned. Not the Big Red but next door to it. s: Andersons. : Boy was that place torched. It happened just last night I guess. nursery kind of a plac.9. CR 4 and Valley View. Right by the High Is: I don't know it. : It's really nice. You know where Valley View Road is? IS: Yes. : Where it crosses over CR 4? Southeast of there. : It's this little nursery type place. It looks like a nice looking house. : Yeah, beautiful place. ~OALS. I was thinking we should maybe wait for Paul. PIan ing Commission Meeting Nove~ 6, 1991 - Page 34 Emmi Is: Yeah, good idea. Batz; i: Can I ask one more question about the update? Emmi Is: Yeah. in : The Corridor 5 study options. There's something about Peter Olin e. I didn't understand that. O1 On what page are you on? : It's the memo to TH 5 corridor study task force. Emmi is: That's history. B~ Okay : Oh, that's not something that's right now? I read that wrong. Emmi ~s: That's history and in fact we had one meeting of the. task force and 're meeting again on the 18th and try and get. something going. Jeff and are attending. Maybe you weren't here when people volunteered who wan to go. Ahr : Well I'll tell you we are going to meet. I just had a couple of thin! going on in my office... Batz : Do you have a card on you? Business card? Ahre : Yeah. Batz : Let me send you that information I've got. Emmi ~s: This is kind of personal isn't it? You guys are out of order. Aski for cards. Ahre : This is important, stuff. Batz : This is important. I've got all this information on how you get fina lng for golf courses that I should send so somebody else can look at it ides me. Emmi Is: Well okay. What's going on.with nonconforming recreational .ots Kate? IL BEACHLOT$ UPOATE. : Okay, 3o Ann and I met with the 13 recreational beachlots that were randfathered in. What we're trying to do is come up with an U' far i ordi them ng of what their grandfathering status is. What they have as the standing. So what we did is we presented them with the best on we have as far as what we feel they had in place when the was adopted. We provided them with that information and asked meet with their association and to bring back whatever on they have to challenge or verify that's-what they have in Plann ng Commission Meeting. Novem ,er 6, 1991 - Page 35 place Just for your advocation, we'll be having the ordinance on-the 20th requi ing that all recreational beachlots coming into conformance and then after that we'd like to do, throughout the winter take. 1 or 2 at a time on the P arming Commission and bring it through that process. I think we answe ed a lot of questions. There were a few that didn't show up but we had a representative from each of the associations. Emmin ~s: Were they hostile to this or pretty receptive? Aanen ~on: There was a few that are going to be sticky. Olse Because they admit that they've expanded but they want to keep what they' ,e got. stic : I think one of the most...issues too is some of these when the 'sion first was in place they had maybe 20 lots and now there's been additions to the subdivision put in with maybe 20-30-40 more homes in and these people feel like they have a right so that's kind of a point too. Emmi Is: Okay. That will be interesting. So are we doing here what we kind ,f did to the contractors yards at one point? Is this the same kind of a ,cess? Olse Yes, exactly. Emmi s: Alright. Well, that will be interesting. That's going to be. Olse Tough, pi :on: So hopefully by the time the ice is out, we'll have them all in and be able to enforce something. MOON ~LLEY UPDATE. Emmi is: I suppose we can all read this. Anybody want to talk about this? ZON ORDINANCE AMENDMENT FOR CHRISTMAS TRE~ S~_ES/TEMPORARY USES. Kate enson presented the staff report on this item. Emm is: Is there anything on the Christmas tree one', can this be done in any ning district? Aane :on: Well it had to be compatible with the zoning district. That woul, be one of the criteria. Emmi ;s: Alright, what is Christmas tree sales compatible with? Aane n: I would consider that a retail and it would have to be in a comm rcial zone. Ice cream vendor I would say it would be compatible with the idential zone. Any retail would have to be in the commercial basi ally. Now some neighborhood if they wanted to have a street bazarre Plan Novel sort party Ahre' Aane' Ahrer Aaner granc someb othe' infol the a cond~ Emmir Aaner want you f evaic Emm i r Aaner it di Emmir Aaner Emmir Aaner to be ordi'r Emmir detai lengt goin~ ther~ to ha Aane~ secti under Emmi~ have ing Commission Meeting bet 6, 1991 - Page 36 of thing. If they wanted to block off the street and have a block or something like that for a weekend. s: What about produce sales? ~on: That if it's grown on the property. What if it's not grown on 'the property like Kerber's? son: That one's grandfathered in. There are some that are fathered. But if it's grown on the site, that I guess we ask for Ddy. If you have different feelings on that. But we have set up standards too. I'll take the time to go through some of those. The nation that we require they submit and that the Director would have Jthority to revoke, close them down if they weren't meeting the lions. gs: You're suggesting that we adopt this ordinance. son: Well if you want us to apply it for Christmas tree sales. If you Js to come back with a specific ordinance, 'we'd draft something up. If e.lt comfortable looking at that. We'd like something in place to ate Christmas tree sales only at this time. Can we adopt ordinances without having a public hearing? son: I thought this was supposed to be under-public hearing. Somehow dn't get under, meet that. ~s: Was it published and advertised? :on: I don't think so. ~s: Then we couldn't adopt it. o ;on: No, so it needs to be, technically to be an ordinance it needs a public hearing. So if you feel comfortable as far as drafting an ance, I guess that would be what we're looking for some direction. ;s: Are you going to have to write, this is a fairly lengthy and ,ed ordinance. Are we going to have to do this, something of this for each and every one of these things that comes along? Or are you to try and do something that, you know what I mean? What if, is some way that we can write this into a single ordinance or do we have ~e one for Christmas trees? One for ice cream vendors? Don: No, it's one ordinance. It would f'it under, we would create a )n in the Code that just says temporary uses. Boom. It doesn't go each chapter. It doesn't get amended. is: Right but it seems to me that that chapter is going to have to ,aybe something this long for each. You don't foresee that? Plann~.ng Commission Meeting November 6, 1991 - Page 37 ~la finn would stand would revie Bat. zl consi Aanen son: No. No. It would just be a separate section in the zoning that say, I found a place to put it. You know you look under general rds or supplementary regulations. Say like temporary sales and this be the criteria. You wouldn't have to put it under each one. I can that with Roger but. : I'm just not tracking tonight' I don't think, Why isn't this just ered an interim use and processed under the interim use permit? .on: Let me go back to my background information where I talked about that okay? and t this tryin be th have Ahre~ . If you look specifically under interim uses it lists specific uses And this goes back to what Steve is saying. If you try'to go back y to build criteria under each one of those, then you have to put engthy document under each one of those interim uses. $o what we're to do is cover all the zoning districts in one place and that would s. If you tried to do it the way' you're talking about Brian, you'd .o go back and develop the criteria under each interim use. think this is a good idea. Batzl : See I look under our current ordinance and under most'where it's allow ~d, it's temporary sales of retail .things. I mean we've already got it in our interim use. I don't understand this. Emmi~ ts: Well as he says here, the purpose of the interim use permit was to al ow. Batzl : I understand what we put in here. Aane~ ;on: There's a couple of problems with interim uses. Okay, you have to cc ,e to the Planning Commission and the. Emmi~ is: This is temporary sales that are kind of self limiting where there what we're saying is, you can do this here temporarily until you do this Until this event. I think there's a distinction. Aane ;on: And the other thing is, if Somebody comes in for an interim, they ave to go to the Planning Commission and the City Council. If somek)dy comes in for Christmas tree sales every year, basically we're goins to know where it's going to go. You've told us what criteria. Do you ~nt them to come back through the Planning Commission' and City Council every year when we already know we've got established criteria and we feel comfc 'table with that. That's what we're trying to do. Those types of uses hat we don't have to bring back every year. Emmir Is: So it will be handled administratively. Aa'net ;on: Exactly. You've set forth the criteria that you want us to evalt te those. And they come in 10 days before instead now we have people come in and we say gee, well really to get your Christmas tree sales you have Lo start in October to get through the whole process. So that's reallf the intent of this. Emmir~s: That makes sense doesn't it? Plan~ing Commission Meeting Nove bet 6, 1991 - Page 38 Batz i: So you want. Emmi ;s: Are you tracking now Brian? Batz i: I'm tracking. I understand what she wants now. You can't call it a tel use. I just don't like temporary use because temporary use is used in the definition of interim use. Emmi ~s: How about temporary sales? Aane' : Yeah. That's really what it is. Except some are seasonal. Emmi IS: But basically they're coming'in saying I want a license:to sell Chri: trees for 20 days. It's kind of like getting a dog license. : Then the question is under, for example. If you look under our bust neighborhood. One of the interim uses is temporary outdoor dis of merchandise for sale. Then the question is, do we still need that n the interim use as a permitted interim use type thing? Emmi ~s: I'm starting to actually dislike you. Just kidding. Batz : You're not starting. You never did like me. Emmi 's: Okay, let's talk about it. Batz : We have a lot of places in the ordinance where we talk about rem ry outdoor display of merchandise for sale which I thought included Chr trees. Now the fact that we don't want to have to make these peop jump through some hoops to start, in September, actually planning a for the Christmas trees they're going to sell in December, I mean do we Do we want this easy little way for administrative approvals so we dc 't have to see it? If we want that, why do we need it still under the im use section? Is there a distinction that something we may want )dy to have a longer time period that we would want them to jump throt h hoops? Ahre : Well the distinction seems to be that for existing retail shops whet they may have on an ongoing basis maybe monthly sales, special sales whet they pull all their merchandise out of the store and set it out in' fr of the store and it's not a seasonal use'. It's not a special kind of use. It's something they do on an ongoing basis. Right? Aa~ ~on: Right. And it's not a property owner. This person is probably ~dy who's just renting some space from somebody f6r a short period of time hereas like you're saying 3can, maybe the'hardware store in the wi puts out their snowblowers and in the summer their lawnmowers are out. Emmi s: Or they need no space at all because they're driving around with their ice cream truck. 8ut the other one applies to someone who has an estab ished location and they're doing something on a temporary basis I guess I don't know. I never thought about it. Have you looked through the o dinance to see if these things fit tc~ether? Plan Nove~ Aanef S~ty , to kr look ConT~ you , Emmir Batzl let's Conra wanti tempc Aaner that that Counc Conr& conc~ Aaner Conr8 Aaner Conra Aaner Olseu Batzl fair Do t~ Aaneo permi Emmin Aane~ with which that' go do Emmin and t ing Commission Meeting bet 6, 1991 - Page 39 son: Yes. Paul and I spent some time going through that and like I it specifically talked about Christmas tree sales but we also wanted ow what your feelings were on other temporary sales. If you wanted to at something like that. Those types of uses. d: What governs, I guess rny question will be secondary. Brian are bry and finish your concern. gs: Your hypertechnical concern. i: No, I don't have any hypertechnical petty concerns thank you. No, move on. d: Okay, what governs a carnival coming to town or the Renaissance ng to move from Shakopee up here or an outdoor concert. Is that a rary? son: We put a perusal in here that says if something of that nature, the Planning Director would take it to you and I'm certain some of scale, that would have to go through the Planning Commission, City il. d: But let's say right now a farmer had a field that wanted to have a rt on. What would govern that? Is there anything that would'govern? son: Right now without this temporary use? d: Right. son: I don't think we would permit it. Because you can't do that in the. son: I'm assuming it's in the residential, yeah. We'd say there's no regulations permitting that. : Let's put it more in perspective. We're going to have an art At the art fair 10 to 1 they're going to have a little donut truck. ~se people need to come in and get a temporary sales permit? son: Right now I believe they're supposed to get a solicitation is: A what? :on: A peddlers or solicitors. And all it does, they're registering .he City so we. know who they are if we have a complaint. There's no, gets into a whole different thing. It's business licensing but s just so we know who's in the city. Because we do have people that )r to door and they are supposed to register. s: Now what's the difference between the donut truck at the art fair ,e Christmas tree sales? Planning Commission Meeting November 6, 1991 - Page 40 Aanen We're contr bazar mov i n solic Batzl Aanen an un in fo and s front Emm i n in ye Olser Batzl Aaner Ahrer Emmir ConTcq Ahrer Conrs Emmir it. Aaner SUCC~ Batz] relat we ha ordir Emmir Olser Aaner coll~ son: Right now we don't have any control. That's what I'm saying. not controlling them. What I'm suggesting is we have some sort of 1 that we're regulating where they are so we're not creating a We don't have any control. Right now unless they're continually we say no. Because right now we're just handling i% as peddlers and tots. : If this was passed they'd have to get a temporary sale permit? :on: Right and we'd regulate where they would go. And we'd say it's approved site. You're creating a hazard. I mean if they're plugging electricity, we want to inspect. That sort of thing. Ail health .fety issues. ~: We're going to put velvet paintings on a boat and moor it out in of Steve's property. Is: Go ahead. My torpedoes are armed and I'm ready to fire. Elvis vet. Bobbing in front of my house. Yeah,. that could get me going. With some artificial Christmas trees. : I move that we do something with this. :on: Would you like to see some sort of ordinance format? : Sure. ~s: I think it's a good idea. : Yeah, for sure. ~: I do too. Broader than Christmas trees. 9s: Yeah. I don't know how that's going to work but if you can do son: I've worked with this type of ordinance before and it was ~sful. : The second part of the question is the farmers market issue as it ss to the earlier one we looked at. The park and ride lots. Should ndle these things via temporary sales rather thao include it in the ~nce as a conditional use for those things? What do you think? It can be. ;on: Yeah. That would be a perfect site because you're on a major ;tot. I'm assuming that's where we're going to want those. You've Plan ng Commission Meeting Nov~ r 6, 1991 - Page 41 got 1 enty of, you've got controlled access. The parking. It's a perfect on. BE sal : But would you be able to have more control over it as a .ional use or would you feel comfortable doing it as a temporary cfi : I'd feel comfortable under temporary sales if it meets'that ia. If you wanted to review it. Again it's where it comes in 1y. It's an annual thing where you want to see it every year. I su : I don't know if I want to review it until we have problems with 'hen ue're going to change the ordinance in a. hurry so we review them , · Emmi is: Okay, we've got an item here on the amendment to the Lake Ann I :eptor Agreement. I see they finally passed that huh? . - O1 Yeah. ! Emmi ~s: That took a while. O1 We'll come back on a future agenda talking about lot area. : Kate, the definition of interim use is on page 1148. It's deli ~d, interim use means a temporary use. I'd 3ust stay away from it. Aane n: That wording. Okay. Ahr : Can we vote now. on these people? Emmi s: Yeah, that's next. Conr and moved, Ahrens seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor motion carried. The meeting was ad3ourned at 9:00 p.m.. Submi 'by Paul Krauss Plann ng Director Prepa ed by Nann Opheim