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1991 12 04CHAN~ REGUL DECEH Vice MEMB~ Brian MEMBE STAFF Plann PUSLI PRELI OF 94 MILWA CHANH Kate Erhar regar Kent Erhar Kent Compa plans takin and w will reque lands issue there Dur i n but p a dro our o what along requi eleva Audub, the e neighl What kind to be yOU ' V, there lands, ~SSEN PLANNING COMMISSION ~R MEETING )ER 4, 1991 hairman Erhart called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Ladd Conrad, Jeff Farmakes, Joan Ahrens and Batzli ABSENT: Annette Ellson and Steve Emmings PRESENT: Paul Krauss, Planning Director; Jo Ann Olsen, Senior )r and Kate Aanenson, Planner II HEARING: IINARY DEVELOPMENT PL~ AND REZONING TO PUD. PLRt~4ED UNIT DEVELOPHENT ACRES TO CREATE )O [NDUSTR)~d.- LOTS LOCATED SOUTH OF 'THE CHICCO, )KEE, ST..PAUL ANO PACIFIC RAILROAD Pd~D EAST OF AUDUbON ,SSEN BUSINESS CENTER, RYRN CONSTRUCTION. ,anenson presented the staff report on thi~ item. : Does the developer have any presentation or comments to make i ng the report on the plan? :arlson: Yes. : And your name is? arlson: My name is Kent Carlson. I'm with Ryan Construction ly. We've worked the past few months with staff to develop these and we're very pleased with where we are today and thank you for the time to consider them. One of the things that we're looking at 'ye discussed with the 'plans is the grading and the conditions that xist as we prepare the Phase I property for development. Staff has ~ted that we do all of the grading at one time and install all of the :ape on the buffer zone and that's a concern of ours. One of the is the landscaping that would be installed in that buffer zone. If isn't any development nearby, we're concerned that it won't survive. this past season it would have survived because we had so much rain evious to that we went through several years where there was kind of tght condition and a lot of the landscaping that we planted in some of ;her business parks did not survive. So what we'd like to propose is ;e've discussed with staff earlier. Is putting in the landscaping that buffer zone as the sites develop or as the screening is ed. In our landscaping and grading plans you'll see that the .ion and the buffer and the berm that's going to be built along )n and to the south of that area is going to be quite extensive. So isting conditions will be improved upon and the residential ,orhood directly across Audubon shouldn't be negatively impacted. ,ou'll see is very similar to the conditions that exist today with )f a large berm there that will be in a green area. We're not going removing any trees there. The current site uses the soybean field so got kind of a green low lying cover already so that's to remain Again, what we're trying to do is just provide additional aping and berming as the site develops. I guess tha['s my only real. Plant comme out s Erhar repot Kent need Commission Meeting 4, 1991 - Page 2 ~t as to the staff report. Everything else I think has been worked ~tisfactorily. ~: Okay. You've reviewed all of the conditions with the staff on the ;arlson: Yeah. There's a few conditions that Kate mentioned that we ;o get together and work out. That 50~ office. We talked about certain users that are in the marketplace that don't fit that criteria and yett~ey would be a very welcomed tenant to have along Audubon because of the s pigeo crite that. going looki heigh setba going nicer will Erhar on th pub 1 i Ahrer favor Erhar indic Aanen Kraus Erhar all t Aanen Kraus outli those Plan. addit the b respo devel that reaso ordin will will [ze, the mass, the design elements of their projects. So to try and hole a specific 50~ office use is going to be difficult as far as a ia. I think we're better coming up with the design standard to meet Again, the way we've priced that property over along Audubon', we're to attract the more image conscience us~r to that area. We're ~g for buildings that are typically going to be a little lower in '. Going to be a little smaller in scale. That along with the :ks and the requirements for the buffer zones and'those things are to allow us to have a little bit more of a green area. A little mix up in that area as the entryway to the park. So I think econmics Jrive the decision-to have nicer buildings in that area. Okay Kent. Thank you. Okay, any other comments from the public project or Kathy's report? If not,-is there a motion to close the hearing. s moved, Conrad seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. ;: Is there any, do you want to respond to anything that Kent had ~ted about the landscaping? Kathy at this point is that. ~on: We've talked about that. I'll let Paul address that. s: Basically...sketch that's on here. . ': Just to review. Right now your conditions is that they should do ~e landscaping as shown? son: In Phase I for the construction. : For the buffer. The project's being built in two phases as Kent ,ed. This is the first project that you've seen that incorporates buffer yards that we developed when we drafted the Comprehensive Ryan is fully comfortable with providing us with that space. The Lonal space and they have developed a preliminary landscaping plan for zffer that needs to be refined allittle bit'but it probably does a lsible job. We added a condition that the first phase buffer yard be )ped with the first phase and not wait until buildings are proposed ~e don't have any control over that. That's an economic thing. The we did that was two fold. First of all when the buffer yard nce was drafted, in part one of the questionsI that was raised was hese buffer yards be installed up front or is that somethin~ that ave to wait. I think specifically some of those questions were being Planning Commission Meeting December 4, 1991 - Page 3 . pose by people who lived across the street and thought they had a buffer yard~ut it was never been defined by the city and they never got it although. 3o Ann was negotiating with them and we think they've volunteered to pu~ zn some buffering after the fact. But that was, and the ordinance, theb~ffer yard ordinance is structured to require that stuff up front. $o that' where we were coming from when we required it. On the other hand I think that Kent's made some fairly persuasive arguments that this is an extre)ely large project and it is difficult to maintain those plantings in areas where you don't have anybody there and you can't readily water and that )oFt of thing. I guess when we discussed this.at length this afternoon I was unable to agree to change She recommendation. But I do under rand the concerns. There's also a cross concern obviously and I don't know how much you need to concern yourselves with that but there iS a consi erable cost to up front the trees and landscaping before there are buil.d~ngs up to carry that cost. .I guess-'arguably you'd have the same up fronacost to build roads and sewers before buildings go in too and this is part )f that package. So I guess the long and the short of it is, the ordin nce requires it up front. .You can vary that if you want to. I think there s some reasons to consider modifying the requirements. Ryan is tryin to come up with-some compromise positions to do that. I don't feel I can recommend it to you but if you want to consider that,, we'll work it eithe way. Erhar that peop1 maybe with Conra impre That' what buffe press scree do th : Okay. Well we'll continue that in the discussion here so with hy don't we open it up to the commissioners and I guess with the few here tonight I'd suggest that we kind of have an open discussion and try to keep it by subject. Feel free to interject but we'll start add anyway if you want to start out with something. Landscaping wise, I guess that's a key issue here and I'm real sed that staff and the developer have agreed on so many things. outstanding because if we start fumbling around with it, we'd know ould happen. My compliments. Generally it seems like a good idea to in the beginning and to landscape. Especially, it creates a ce for the development. An entry presence. Like a monument. It the neighbors. It creates a really positive image. If we didn't it, is it piecemeal then? Is it piecemeal then by lot? Kraus : That's the concern. By the way, before I respond to that too. I just aw something that we clarified for ourselves this afternoon.' We've been ;alking about the buffer yard on Audubon Road and the plans do show the b~ffer plantings all the way to the north of the site. In fact the buffs yard ends someplace right about here because that's where, resid ntial development ends. The buffer yards were only created where you had h gher intensity land uses up against residential land uses so north of that ~ine, that landscaping and that buffer, we've already talked to the deve That yard t you see on Lot 1, l~pe~, buffer hat which is this one up here Ws not needed. So ! guess the landscaping question that we're looking at in)talling~ on page 1 runs from here to here. So you know, and you raise the q~estion about piece mealing it. That's a concern. There are ways of working it out. Kent suggested a few. For'example you have a site over here. You could be building on this site and this site.and that site befor and without requiring a buffer yard here because you haven't build on th t site. The worst case is the buffer yard will be built whenever PI ng Commission Meeting 4, 1991 - Page 4 mark conditions dictate. Now hopefully this thing wtll be a prosperous deve nt and will be built quickly. I just am uncomfortable counting on that Erha~ : If I can interject a couple questions. On the buffer, are those bui on berms or is that going to be? Aane n: We've got a cross section. Kra~ : I don't know if this one shows it as .eli. 8ut yes, it's hard to pick from. You'd have to look at the fuii scal. grading plans that you have There are considerable berms along-Audubon. Aane ~on: Kind of meandering. : Yeah, and we've asked for more detail on that but clearly we are gett landscape berms along Audubon. Ahre : So the concern, Ryan's concern is that or Kent. Is it Kent? Kent leon: Yes. Ahre : Is that you won't be, what you plant on'the berms may die because s not going to be anything d~veloped in the park? Kent :arlson: Right .... no one there to maintain the trees... All of the bui ngs are going to be built with irrigation systems...and without an' there to take care of the vegetation in the buffer zone, the irri~ tion systems won't go into the buffer zone necessarily but... Ahre : I assume though that you're going to have the berms in place? Kent leon: The berms will be placed. Ahre : And there's going to be sod on the berms? Kent leon: Probably grass seed. Ahre : So there's going to have. to be some system set up anyway to water the Kent any put com Kent the · leon: Yeah.. ·prairie grass... : Is there anything else that you can plant on there that would be, es or anything? That wouldn't be high maintenance? Temporarily mething on the berms until you put trees. I mean is .there a 'se that can be worked out there? son: Like a ground cover that wouldn't take much? : Yeah. leon: Yeah but I don't know that it gives us the height. I think ity, if you look at the elevations of the center where you've got Plann Decem sight build land stree you'l wait. somet of th side south take prell probl the m remov you h Ahren dead unlan Kent befor if on the a Erhar the spt i area ng Commission Meeting ,er 4, 1991 - Page 5 lines and you've got a building. You've got what would.be a 2 story ng there. The be-Tm really screens the business park itself and the .rea is mass is behind in the business park quite well from across the in the residential area. It's only when you put in a structure that need additional landscaping. That's our feelings is that you can When we have something to screen, a building...and we've got lng to screen, then it's appropriate to put the landscaping in on top berm... And Paul and I talked about...develop the lots on the north etween lake Drive and the railroad tracks.· .develop the ones on the side, we'd go ahead and put some landscaping in there anyway, b4.e :one of the risk there because we do have a building...on our inary approval neighbors were concerned... Our biggest concern, the m I have, I don't have any problem spending the money. It's spending )ney 2 or 3 times because they could die and then you go back and it and plant it again and then it dies the following year and then ve to plant it again. : I agree. There's nothing that looks worse than a berm that has andscape all over it. We have enough in the city but will an ~caped berm cover up development that may be on Lots 6 and 7? :arlson: No, that's what I'm saying.' If we develop Lots 6 and 7 · Whenever we have something that needs it, we'll put it in. Even the other side of...I guess we're looking at kind of phased plan for 'ea north of Lake Drive... : Any other comments about that particular subject. I guess if not, estion I have is, would you expect that in putting in the underground ling system that you're going to sprinkle this berm and the buffer I thought I heard you say through it all tha~ you would not. arlson: Typically you don't run it ail the way out to the'edge of )rming. You can have some elevations that...just difficult to Kent the b install. 8ut if you put...out into your back lawn area, you get a pretty good ~weep area. Erhar have natur It's that build sprin trees were Paul. Audub we pu What surro Kraus nearl : Yeah really but it wouldn't seem to me to make any sense if you berm strip, if we have a buffer strip that's intended to be a 1 growth, you wouldn't want to sprinkle it at all. Why do that? ust a waste of water. Given that, and I question the premise that ould be, those buffers would be taken better care of once there's a ng there and someone occupying it. I Just can't imagine the ling it and quite frankly in our experience in our building, the weren't taken care of any better when you Were there than before they )ut in. So I guess I would have a hard time, I guess I'd agree with It seems to me they ought to be put in in the beginning, at least on n. The other thing is, the berms where all the trees' died and then those in in a drought. Some of those berms are extremely high. re we talking about here? The top of the berm relative to .the nding ground. : As I recall, I know the ones you're thinking of'. They're not as high as the ones up there. Plant Decen Erhar advar get t know Conr~! accorll and y exper aCCOIT Norwa migh~ Kraus bermi buffe the s dist~ going. side furth over that proje whic~ if ne multi Conra Kraus We ' ye has n ' you c Conra large Kraus over Erhar throu Kraus Conra The r stuff at th thing Kraus, most lng Commission Meeting bet 4, 1991 - Page 6 C: All the water drains off the berm and so they get dry. The other Cage you have in planting them early is you have the opportunity to he growth on the trees earlier on so you get it established. I don't Any other comments on that subject? Ladd, do you want to carry on? d: Paul, you've reviewed the landscape plan and the beT.ms are 3lishing the need for the neighbors-to the east. They're high enough >u know, I look at what was to be planted there and not being an ~. That you're comfortable with the planting. The proposed plantings 3lishing what we want. It looks like a mixture. There were some maples in there which is not a, it's a fast growing tree and that meet some needs. s: We've asked for some additional detail in the grading for the ng but the landscaping is fairly well done. .Keep in mind that this yard is part of a bigger picture of buffering the property across ,feet. We have the right-of-way for Audubon which in itself is just ~ce and doesn't do very much except that Audubon is graded, the site's to be lower and below Audubon. $o you have the homes on the other ]own a little bit. The street up here and then the development down )r. Then we'll have the 50 foot area along Audubon. It's 50 foot ~ere and it's 100 foot down there which is considerably more space Jill be bermed and landscaped and that's just the perimeter of the =t and then you have the final layer which is individual site plans you'll approve in the future which you can get additional screening ~essary and the general landscaping .materials. So there's sort of a :le tier approach to it that should do'a pretty good job. How close is the nearest house to the south? s: Nell the south isn't platted yet. That's the Rod Gram's property. been speaking to a couple folks looking at developing that' but it materialized into a project yet. But presumabely, in the worst case .uld have somebody's backyard with a 30 foot setback right over there. : But right now we're talking hundreds of yards before the next lot? : Oh well, Sun Ridge Court is quite a ways to the-south and it's he top of a hill. ,: What we're requiring is that the buffering landscaping be done Ih Phase 1, not beyond that initially? : Yes. : Okay. Just a couple of other questions. The weather station lot. ad that goes up to the top and I'm not sure I'm looking at the right but there's a road that goes up to the top of the hill. What happens top of the hill? What is that site for? Is that a balloon release : We've seen a bunch of different plans. I think Kent, is this the ecent concept because I've got. Plant Decen Conr~ Kent ConTa Kent They Conr~ Kent arour Conra proce KTaUS fact with Conra Kraus lng Commission Meeting bet 4, 1991 - Page 7 d: I'm just curious what the bullseye is for. Carlson: Oh, the balloon ~elease? d: Is that the balloon release? Carlson: They've got two things. They've got a radar tower in here. ye got a balloon release. Yeah, the radar tower is down the hill. Carlson: Yeah, I know that's... There's like a 300 foot radius d it. d: And these balloons are how big? Tell me what happens in this ss when they release a balloon. s: Well I met with the weather station folks about a year ago and in [n college we used to buy these balloons and use them just to play >ut they're only about 12 feet across. And they release them and they're gone? Yeah. They carry a little instrument package underneath it and it's.~abeled if anybody finds it, they should return it to the weather servitude for a reward or something like that. Conra Kraus The b high build Conra Kraus obser Conra it's Kraus commi fact to t~ close It's repre infor weath It's offic '{: So it's not a permanent, visible, visual hazard? s: Oh no. It's not like an inflatable gorilla on a Ford 'dealership. lilding where they'll be launched is permanent and it's a 1 1/2 story >uilding with a little dome on it. They inflate it inside the : And that's a building? : Yeah. Well, it's a very small structure. It looks like a tiny atory with one of those roofs that kind of scallop open. : How is it designed? You've seen it and you're comfortable that ot offensive? : Well, you've got to take all of this with a grain of salt sioner because we have not seen their final site plan submittal. In .hey're flying a couple of fellows out here from California next week k to us again. The plans that I've seen have the office building to Audubon Road where we prefer it. It's a brick office building. 5,000 square feet but their plans are in a state of flux a~d what's :anted conceptually on this submittal is Just, it's the best )ation the developer is able to get from the weather service but the Pr service has not submitted an'official plan yet and it may change. :lear that every plan that I've seen has a 15,000 square foot brick building. It has a small building for the balloons and it has the Plan ng Commission Meeting 4, 1991 - Page 8 down radar which is a tower with a height I believe it's come down. It's ound 140 feet. Conr : The weather radar, does that have the moving radar? Kr : No. Conr : It doesn't? Kr : No. Well, it does move but it's inside a housing. Conr : I'm belaboring the point but we're looking at buffering and 1 'ng and we're making a decision right now based on something that's goi in there that maybe our buffer yard should consider. That's a little bit concern because it is an unusual or little bit different operation we'r dealing with there. Kr : If I could add, in a lot of ways I've thought it's kind of the per use for that corner because, because of their space requirements, they e taking it. Is it a 10 acre site? Aanel :on: Yes. KT Most to nice : They're taking a 10 acre site and doing virtually nothing on it. it's going to remain green space. So when you add our buffer yards fact that most of it's going to. remain forever open. it's kind of a to interface with homes further to the south. Conr : Well kind of, unless they throw a surprise that the neighbors don' like and moving parts or something. Kra~ : Well again, you have to approve that. Conr : Right. Right. But this is our only shot at this point. When they :ome in, we'll be able to talk to them about their yard and whatever but. Erhar : Kent. Kent and leon: ...is 12 feet below the road out there so the road comes in got your berm and it drops below that' 12 feet so that berm. Conr : The dome of this little circle that I keep pointing at? Okay. Kent leon: Yeah, so it's well below the berm. So.people sitting across the ;feet would be able to look across ~udubon and visually see the berm and t see the top of that building...based on the preliminary information we . They will see the radar tower. 140 feet. Con : Yeah. We'd like you to screen that tower somehow but. Okay. That all I have for landscaping. Erhar}: Maybe if you don't mind. Would you say the landscaping provided meetslthe ordinance or exceeds the ordinance? Substantially exceeds the Decem ordin Kraus Aanen Erhar Aanen na Comrn . ion Meeting ,er 4, 1991 - Page 9 nce? What would you say? : Well it certainly meets the requirements· on: We're just talking about the buffer landscaping? : The buffer landscapi on: They'll have to do a specific site plan. Erhar~: I understand. No, the buffer landscaping. Do you think it meets the n~w ordinance? Do you think it substantially exceeds our new ordin Kraus unlik yOU ' V Erhar would then you h Conra it in out. Kraus in th our p eithe and t build Conce deve 1 we're conne negot that able acros Erhar trail Kraus Erhar Kraus Aaner nce? : It's tough to measure Chairman because the buffer yard ordinance, the landscaping ordinance doesn't set a. dollar amount. It Just says got to accomplish a goal and we think they accomplish the goal. : Because one of the things you might, in response to their request be to negotiate for more. You know if we're-to comply with that, legotiate for more landscaping maybe as a horse trade. An idea. Do ~ve some more stuff? ~: Not much. The walking path. Is that pretty much the way we saw the beginning? I had a hard time looking at materials and figuring s: I think maybe on the original concept it showed an internal loop property. The developer realized they had some problems with it and ~rk folks realized that they probably didn't prefer it that way · The problem that the developer has is it's against the railroad ,ey want rail access. It's also towards the backs of some of their ngs and it's a little bit tough to police. As far as our parks were ned, this is part of an overall trail system that they'd like to 3. It comes down throughlhere and comes out onto the outlot that going to be getting and ultimately they want to have trail :tions up and down Bluff Creek. We're going to hopefully begin ations with the railroad. There's an underpass under the railroad le'd like to use. So it's a Part of la bigger system where you'll be .o make loops ideally one day down to Lyman or up to TH 5 and get TH 5. C: How do the people on the north side get to that trail? Is there a off the end of the cul-de-sac? s: Inside this project? ~: Yeah. s: I think was that one of the things you'were...? son: Yeah. Krauss: Where exactly? Plant Deceff Aane~ Erbar cul-d Aanen the c of th Aanen provi pondi Kraus indus Erhar whole walk Aane! Erhar indus integ use i ConTa Erhar Ahren Erhar didn' Conra Erhar Ahren you s assum Aanen Ahren Aanen acres · COTT]. lng Commission Meeting ~er 4, i99l - Page 10 son: It will come up this way and tie up along the road...' Wouldn't it be logical to put a trail between Lot 7 and 8 into the ~-sac or a trail easement at least? son: You're talking...this right here. s: No. The western cul-de-sac there. In phase 2. $o the people in ffices on the north side of the development can walk down the center ) street and get into. . son: Well we will have an access there. We are requiring that they de a utility easement over the storm sewer so we ca'~ get access to the It's not a bad idea. I mean it would allow people in the srial park to have access as an internal loop. :: I guess I assumed that was one of the given objectives of the thing was that the people in the park at lunchtime have some place to Yeah, I see you were entirely focusing on the overall trail system. son: The larger loop, yeah. ': Oh yeah. I think that's one of the common things in some of the :rial parks I've visited· Modern ones is that the trail system lis ated with the industrial parks so people can get out and conveniently · Ladd, is that everything you had? Yeah. Okay, Joan. What have you got? Are we off to other subjects now? ': Yeah, I think we're on. I think you covered all your Subjects ; you? Pretty much. Okay· Kathy, when you were giving your staff report you talked about, id there was no development contemplated at this time for Outlot A. I that property's going to be deeded to the city. son: Yes it will be. s: We don't plan on any development ever? ~on: No. There's a mature stand of' trees that's approximately 6 orThat will be preserved and then in the Comp Plan, the Bluff Creek i is identified as a protected open space. So as we've shown, the ng Commission Meeting 4, 1991 - Page 11 trai will be going through that area. So no, there will be no development of lot A. Ahre : Okay. On Lots ! and 5. There is development planned for those two right now? Aane n: I think they're just showing that as a rendering. We're not rev ing anything. That's just to give you an idea. They do want that se access and we talked about that in the report on Lot 1. We talked our first preference would be no separate access but if there was, that may be a time when a light'would be requited at Lake Drive and ,n. At that time we may restrict by putting a channel lane through ther that those people would not be allowed to turn left. We felt that this ign, based on the traffic report, that most of the turn movements are goin~ to the north back up to TH 5. Both-people at Lot i and Lake Dr'ire will turning to go onto TH 5 so we feel. that there would be a c, cting turn movement so. Ahr Ii KT : Just a question for informational purposes. IS MnDot planning a on CR 117 and TH $ also? : At Salpin? Ahr : Yeah. Kra~ : Yeah. When TH 5 is rebuilt, which we're trying to work towards, that d come into play. The traffic here at Audubon may be high, levels may ~t to a high enough point that you need to signalize it before MnDot can It together that project. But yes, there will be signalized inter one at each of those. Ahre : At Audubon and CR 117. Huh. Okay. This staff report is very good the way. I think you did a good job on it. This long'cul-de-sac. .You some concerns in your report about this. Don: Well it wasn't our first preference but based on the shape of the ty and the slope and the railroad, the triangular shape, obvi sly it would be our first choice to loop it but then we'd have the probl m with the preservation of Bluff Creek and the like. It is a long cul- sac. 1,700 feet but we feel that based on the topography and the confi uration of the lot, it's the best design. Ahre : And how wide is it? Aane on: Well it would be 60 feet wide but we'd want 80 feet at the inter ion from the shorter cul-de-sac forward so we can get the turn movements that we want because we feel that, as we mentioned, based on the traffic here and the other industrial area, that there will probably be a light at this intersection too. $o we can have a left turn, a straight acros going on Lake Drive a.nd a free right turn. Ahren : Okay. So you're anticipating this as mostly just going to be car type f traffic into the cul-de-sac? Plan ng Commission Meeting De( 4, 199l - Page 12 truc : Yeah. They break down in the traffic report the percentage of but I could give you that percent. 8~. 8~ trucks. 8~ of the c would be trucks. Ahr : I don't have any more comments. Far : The only comment that hasn't been discussed ! guess is, sort of left lying is to what the preference would be as far as completing ~hat bet prior to buildings going up. Or landscaping. I guess my pr ence would be that the berm itself and the exterior along Audubon Road ,e completed. I guess we're flexible on the interior and that makes sens.e~to put it at the trees when buildings go up to take care of it, The ques~on though beyond the berm how much maintenance is going to be done on trees outside by the road. On the other side of the berm where the bull ng owners won't be seeing that. I guess I'd like to see that put in. Conr : So you'd like to see it bermed and landscaped? Far i : I'd like to see it landscaped on the berm but not on the or. : Conr : So you're in agreement with staff? Far : Yep. Conr : So you feel that the developer should put the landscaping in and mai n it. Far es: On the east side~ Conr : On the Audubon side. Far goi : Because for sure the Lots 11 and 10 are going to be open to development. It depends on which way you look out of your home. So 're not going to put anything in there, at least on 11 that you're to see right into that. Conr : The berm would shelter it. :es: Well again, without trees it's going to look l'ike. Conr : A berm. ~s: A berm. Conr : 3oan, what are you thinking? I wasn't sure. Ahre : I don't want to be unreasonable about this and I think they've made t clear, the developer's made it-clear that any time that any devel pment goes in here at all, they're going to be putting up landscaping and I don't have a problem with the piecemeal. As long as they're going to whatever's being developed, I don't care if it doesn't go completely alom Audubon Road to start out with. I want the landscaping to look nice. I thi k ultimately it will. I think it's unreasonable to expect them to Plan lng Commission Meeting Decel 4, 1991 - Page 13 com deve, y landscape that' berm if there's not even going to be any there to begin with. What are they buffering? Empty lots? Conr : I tend to agree with you. The only'thing I see is you get 1 'rig going early. But this is going to be a good looking, I think this s going to be a good looking development and I'm not sure that we're real , I don't know. I'm not as concerned with the landscaping as I nor ly am. I think if we berm it and we have that integrity around the enti parcel so we're comfortable that staff has, and then'we reseed it with ass, I think I'm comfortable with that. But Brian you could per me. Batz : You're saying berm it and seed it? Co : Berm it and seed it and then we'll landscape it when the indi dual developments go in and that's pretty much contrary to what I've alwa' said but in this particular case it just seems okay. Erha : Anything else Jeff? Farf : No. Erha : Okay. Brian, are you ready? . Batz : Yeah. Can I ask a couple dumb questions first? Co : Talk about landscaping first and then go to the dumb ones. Batz : I came in kind of late on the landscaping but'my general feeling is they berm it and seed it and as they develop the lots they landscape it, don't think we usually ask for more than that. Host developers that come n and do these things, ! mean you really don't do it until.you deve that lot. Even in a residential PUD or lot areas so I don't know why. Conr : There's sure a lot of logic for doing it all in the beginning. It's neat way to do it. It packages the whole.parcel. It's-a good show pi for the developer. It starts landscaping early. Buffers the resi from, boy there's a ton of good arguments for it. Er simi : Kathy or Paul, do we have any precedent or history on something to this what we've done? KT in pi I thi to : I don't think so but I don't think we've had the ability to do it past either. The existing industrial park was developed in a way. It has no overall landscaping framework. Lake Susan Hills we wish probably in that case that we had done it up front with the ..because in that case i% was a.little different but it's'difficult in somebody's backyard and add trees after the house is built. Erhar : Are you talking about the perimeter landscaping? : That's the only thing we're talking about in this instance. PIann;ng Commission Meeting Decem 4, ~99~ - Page 14 Erhar : Okay, now onto the dumb questions. Just kidding. Batzl : Is our normal limit on cul-de-sacs 1,500 feet? Is that kind of what e look at for our benchmark? Kraus : Well, the ordinance Was changed a number of years ago to eliminate a max mum length. It used to be 500 feet. That was probably ~ore resid ntial but now it kind of says don't go too long but if you need to. I mig t add too that this was one of the road connections that we looked at a lit bit during the comprehensive plan. Gary Warren and I had initi lly sketched a road that would have been an extension of Lake Drive. This s getting kind of messed up but it was originally supposed to come down and jump the railway tracks at a crossing and then connect over here. There's alternatives that are possible coming down through here. But the 'oblems that we encountered, the reason we dismissed that is the 8luff Cree flood plain is quite la%ge there. The only significant trees in that entir valley south of the railway tracks is located on that Outlot A that we'll get title to and if you put a road through there, you're going to- lose .hat And a railroad crossing is probably more academic than reality ~e i~'s always tough to get. All things being equal we decided that the Ist, the environmental cost of doing it really was not worth it. The tra off wasn't there. We would have preferred the continuity if we could have .otten it. It just didn't seem reasonable. We also looked at some possi ,ilty of looping a road back to the south. Coming out through here, but really doesn't get out. Then you're mixing residential traffic and i :trial traffic and that doesn't make too much sense either. Batzl : Dumb question number 2. Is this currently zoned PUD? ;on: No, it's zoned A-2. We're going for a rezontng. Batzl : Are we supposed to rezone'it? :on: Yes. Batzl : Before considering this? ;on: Yes. We did that as a part of this. We did that as a part of the ~nceptual too and the rezoning justification was a part of this.. Batzl : But where in the packet do we actually say we want to rezone it? Conr : I think we need a special motion on that. Batzl : Yeah. Er Well it's preliminary development plan and rezoning to PUD. unit development. If there's not a motion in the conditions, there be a separate motion for the rezoning. 8atz~: And in the packet that we got from the Park and Rec Coordinator, or scmneone they talk about we're going to get the deed for Outlot A. Is that >ne o~ the conditions? Should it be one of the conditions? Planr Decen Aaner Batzl Kraus expec into up wi Batzl Kraus matte part prote we tc cash prefe the ~ paid need Batzl that Krau~ Batzl that Krau~ didn woul< contl Batzl Rane~ Batzl respc Aaner weSre Regar Batzl City come Kraus but ~ I war coupl Lng Commission Meeting 9er 4, 1991 - Page 15 son: The condition that there's no development on Outlot A. But then we're not going to get the deed to it? s: No we will. This is in the process of negotiation right now. I ~ it to be resolved in short order. It involves some HRA interaction qow we acquire that parcel. At this point, I mean we're going to wind ~h title to it. Does it matter if we don't? s: Well, we weren't going to take it as a development, well does it r yes. We'd like the title to it. We'd like to be able to make it 3f that recreational trail corridor and to permanently be able to :t those trees that are out there. Part of the trade off involves, if' >k this outlot through a development exaction then we wouldn,t get the 3ark dedication that we would normally get. The park department would r the cash dedication so our HRA is going to work on a proposal where ~A acquires that through purchase and we-get the park dedication fees for the park department as development occurs. $o I don't think you sn additional condition at this time. It is happening. L: In any event, even if that doesn't go'through~ the condition is on no development occurs? s: Right. [: In that case, unlikely as it seems right now, who takes care of 3utlot? I don't know. That's a good point. That's an eventuality we cover but if in that case it would remain an unbuildable lot which be owned by Ryan development and I would think they would have lued responsibilty to maintain it. : Is the holding pond for the second phase going to be on Outlot A? so n: Yes. 1: $o if they transfer title, does it then becomes the City's nsibility to keep up? son: It would anyway. They would transfer that right, yes. And asking them to provide access so we can get-in and maintain it. dless we would maintain it. l: On the environmental impact statement. We're assuming that the ;ouncil is going to, that's going to happen. That theY're going to ap with the finding that it's not required. s: Yeah. Well we're not, I think that that's going to be the findin9 )'re being presumptuous yet to do that. The process with the EAW is, Led you to review it first and if you're comfortable with it, we had a ) changes we wanted to make but they're minor. At that point we send Commission Meeting 4, 1991 - Page 16 it the Environmental Quality Board. It gets published in the EQB Moni and then there's a 30 day response period. The'process provides for this is not a mandatory EAW. We're requesting that this be done so we'r ~he petitioning body but we would receive comments from concerned a~ es. Based upon those comments, sometime in January the City Council woul have to make a finding as to whether or not further investigation were equired. : The only thing I was looking at was from a water-quality ,oint. Question Il(b) where they talk about is there a sensitive ecol lly resource on or near the site and the question is whether the Creek corridor is on or near enough or whether that's the kind of thin~ that we look at. And I know that in the report you talk about, you' basically buffering the PUD development with... Do you feel 'table with their finding that nothing is on or near the site enough to a )wet yes to that question so an impact statement's required? and : I think you're raising a valid point. I think the answer is yes 's covered elsewhere in the EAW. I think we should modify that we talk at great length about the need to have nutrient removal it goes down into Bluff Creek and in fact. Aane We ' and the n: Those are the two changes that we made that you didn't hear. recommending that that be added. That the NRP pond standards be used they also use the erosion control measures that we identified in t be added to their EAW. K : One of the other things we're working on now with the DNR on this is r ht now Bluff Creek is just a channelized ditch through this property beca it was so intensively farmed. We're having the developer come up with grading plan that in essence kind of busts up that ditch and exca tee out some of the lowland beyond it so we'll have periodic in tion and the wetlands that used to be there hopefully will come back. But answer to your question is yes. That should be changed and is one of t things that needs to be. Batz : The projected Bluff Creek trunk line, is that the trunk line that been on and off for several years with the Met Council? Krau,, : No. : What trunk line is that? Kr : No, this is. : Or is this the interceptor that's been scrapped? KT that appr C, The all That : Well, there was the Bluff Creek Interceptor. The famous one' never going to be built. When we had the comprehensive plan we had an alternative system that was approved by the Metro Watse ~ommission and going back through my butchered up schematic here. uff Creek pipe that you're talking about Mr. Batzli is-going to go way down here to the Minnesota River and then over to Eden Prairie. not going to happen. I don't even think we want it to happen Plan lng Commission Meeting Dece~ bar 4, 199i - Page 17 anym(re. The environmental damage is too significant. What Metro Waste appr(ved is to put a lift station someplace down here by Lyman 81vd.. It may ctuaiiy be a little bit south so that drainage in the Bluff Creek syst m will flow down to that. So basically you have gravity flow where you ould have had it anyway. Then at that point it's going to be pumped back up Audubon to new Lake Drive where it will ~low.Bravity riBht into the Lake Ann pipe. So we're basically using unused capacity in the Lake Ann pipe to service an area that should have normally gone someplace else but ther 's no place to do it. Batz i: I thought we were running out of capacity .in Lake Ann? Kr s: No, we're really not. We're actually doing pretty good with that. oo who's working with us on several projects helped us in the final sta s of the comprehensive plan. They demonstrated to MWCC's satisfaction that there's plenty of capacity in the pipe because Eden Prairie didn't use, and most of us haven't used the rates that they projected. And ther 's an upstream restriction, I think it's the Lake Virginia pump stat on that no matter what they do upstream of that, it can only pump so much so there's capacity left. The question that Bonestroo is looking at now s we've got authorization to do this but they're trying to plan for ever thing that's undeveloped in that city including that big study area sout of Lyman Blvd. and what we're looking at is whether or not there's capacity in Bluff Creek for that. I'm sorry, in Lake Ann for that to take everything left in the city and that's a little nip and tuck right now. They're finessing that at the moment but as far as this goes and our enti e MUSA line addition, that's all taken care of. 8atz i: Well the condition I think reads, it talks about reversing the flow if feasible or something to take advantage of this. Phase 1 should be switched to follow the trunk sanitary sewer system proposed for Phase 2. Is t~ t part of Phase 2 then? Kraue : Phase 2 is the big project that I described. And the reason that the 's a Phase I is because the big project, which they've given us a · leas ility study petition for, is a pretty major program and-we're not cert. in whether that's going to be able to come on line late this year or next coup Not enou the it's this and in set obli So what they were looking for was an alternate means of servicing a of the higher sites near Audubon Road. There is an'existing sewer. very big one that serves Lake Susan Hills that comes, dead ends at n. There is some capacity in that line. Not a lot but probably to take the first few buildings. And what we've been saying is that 1 way to serve that area, we can do that on a temporary basis but lly not designed for that and after we have the big system around, Development is going to be designed so that you plug up one pipe it flow back the way it should be. We've also got some conditions e saying that even if we're able to provide you-some temporary for some of these sites, this does not get you out of your OhS for paying for that bigger system. evl : I guess my problem was, if feasible, it sounded like you wanted to ly go to that other, not interceptor but trunk line but if feasible t sound very strong to me and if you really wanted to do it. Plant Decem Krau~ They in ti event guess Counc Batzl quest Erhar Batzl syste assum Hills Kraus that conc~ revis flows demor the c Batzl Kraus 8atzl that Erha~ good reall me ur yeah impre sure lot c capac mean Kraus commi capa¢ alrea we 'l'e not t as tc possi Chank major lng Commission Meeting )er 4, 1991 - Page 18 s: To be honest, I wish we had our engineering folks here tonight. e both ill. They did plan on being here. I'm not certain if ~hat, meetings I was in, I had always assumed that to be mandatory. That Jally it would be put there. Is that your recollection as well? I the best we can do commissioner is to clarify that before it gets to [1 because I assumed it all was going to go that way. : Yeah, I'd like you to do that. I've got like two more dumb .one. How I'm doing so far? Dumb enough? ~.: You're taking all of my questions. i: Okay. How do you enforce an amount of discharge into the sewer 17 You've got this covenant regulating the amount of discharge. I that's because we just have limited capacity through Lake Susan there but how do you monitor that? s: Well in fact that was one of the items that we discussed-tonight ,e've come up with some modified language on. The developer's rned that covenants are rather clunky and they cloud titles and this ~emporary one at best anyway and we agreed. What we're going to do is the condition so that when each site plan, Phase I site plan that out that way is requested, the developer is going to have to strate that the projected flowage from that site is consistant with mpacity of the pipe. L: So you're not going to have the covenants on there? s: No. We're going to do it through a site plan approval. l: I think the other stuff has been talked about it sounds like so s it for me. L: Okay. Well I'll tell you. The only thing that's, I think it's a ~lan It will be a good development and I agree that Kathy did a F splendid job of outlining the issues. The one thing that did make ~'omfortable is this whole thing with the sewer. I'm not an expert and [ think it would have been handy to have engineering here but the ~sion I get is that we're trying to rush into something and I'm not it's, I'm just not comfortable that it's all clear. I mean there's a ~ questions out there. For example, why wouldn't we know yet what the lty is on Lake Susan Hill? The 8 inch pipe at Lake Susan Hills? I that's a pretty easy thing to do. s: It is but it's part of the feasibility study that's going to be ssioned Monday night by the Council to figure out what the interim ity is. You have to do some computations about how many 10ts are dy using it. What ki~d of volumes we have now. ~hat kind of lots already committed to serve in that project that are unbuilt. It's nat difficult a thing to do but it hasn't been done yet. I guess too, the question of putting the cart before the horse or this seems ply premature. The way development normally has.worked before in ~ssen is the city does not or has not pre-empttvely gone in and built infrastructure without having a developer on the hook to pay for it. Plan~ Decer Or h~ that of t~ other the Erha' K-tau mean ina comp they whic bull cons Erha I re, basi, get that way best Krau,, mean doi n., Erha~ it's the AaneT how n woulc Erha~ they to m~ Krau.. plan it's Erha~ Kraus John flow point the F divic ing Commission Meeting bet 4, 1991 - Page 19 1p pay for it. Ryan is the first one in on this major system to do and they've been very cooperative with'us on taking their.fair share e cost on doing that and everything else. We have three other, four projects that are in the talking stages, that are going to be using ame pipe but they're not as far along as to petition the project yet. t: The Phase II pipe? s: Yeah. The...system. The big system. There's every intent. I this is a project that doesn't work unless, until that major system is d Ryan knows that and we know that and we knew that when we wrote the ehensive plan. The only thing that they're trying to get a jump on is re willing to set the wheels in motion to get the big project done, point becomes a city effort but they're looking to get a couple ings or the possibility of building a couple buildings yet this 'uction season so we were trying to work with them on that. : And that's just fine with me but what you just said isn't the way d essentially the conditions. What I think we're going to get and I'm ally agreeing with everything Brian's concerns. What you're going to s a permanent Phase I that empties across the street and I don't think was ever the overall plan and that's what you're goi.ng to get with the t's laid out now because I agree the term, if feasible is very weak at s: Well I would be comfortable with you changing that as long as, I if I don't find out that the City Engineer has some real reason for it. t: A couple other ideas. Right now essentially we're given, the way ,ritten, we're given approval for Phase I to essentially hook up to <isting 8 inch sewer. son: You do it on a lot by lot basis. First they have to determine ~ch capacity is available and then each lot, depending on the use have to come in. t: Okay. Why wouldn't we force them to, when they put in each lot also put in the lines to go west simultaneously? If our intention is <e them do that and they've got to pay for it anyway. s: The system of pipes that you'll see in the street in the utility is a part of that system that feeds down the hill. I'm pretty sure on page 1. Does that show up? t: Well that's okay... s: Oh here it is. Diedrick: John Diedrick from RLK Associates. Lots 1, 2, 3, 4 will to the cul-de-sac north off of West Lake Drive-. The gravity at' that would have the option to move to the west instead of to the east once 3ase II sanitary sewer line is in place. Lots 10 and' 11 we have 9d Y connections to the sanitary sewer so that in the future there Plann Decem wou 1 d inste but ~ to go Erbar every John Erhar cost Kent Erhar Patti Then would permi Aane~ Kraus quest and p crite Erhar Aanen Erhar wonde becau throu Aanen proba Erbar Kraus the P in th that There logos They in ti devel estab ng Commission Meeting ,er 4, 1991 - Page 20 be an opportunity for Lots 10 and 11 also to be routed to the west ~d of to the east. Again, we don't have use scheduled for those lots )'re trying to set up the infrastructure so that we have that option to the west. -: Without going back in and. digging up the landscaping and ~hing? )iedrick: Correct. ': The fear would be to come back and say well gee now look at the ,e'll incur. - :arlson: The system is designed to go either way. : Alright, that makes me much more comfortable on this issue. ~ularly if we can eliminate this if feasible and make it mandatory. 'm settled with that· Let's go to the conditions on signs. This be condition number 24. Item (b). All signs require separate · Is that in our ordinance? ~on: Yes. s: But if we could clarify that because the developer had the same on. That's a sign permit that you just come to the counter upstairs ~y your $35.00 or $60.00, whatever it is. We verify that it meets the ia and that there's no building code issues and then they just go.. : Even if a guy puts a little sign on his door· ~on: Yeah, we have to review them all to make sure they meet code· ~: But anyway as long as they're meeting code. That's what I was lng. Are we going beyond Code here and starting to write in wishes :e we've really got to stick to Code. What about the common theme ih the whole? This is new to me. :on: The entry sign that they have for the Chan Business Center will >ly set the theme. Yeah, I know what it is. I'm just saying, is this Something new? ~: Well yes and no. What we're looking for is a signage package in JD documentation that will set some parameters for the signage that's ~re. I think if you look at the newer industrial parks, I mean one 'm most intimately familiar is the Minnetonka Corporate Center. s consistent monumentation in each site. While they have corporate has a similiar type of sign. It's in a similar type of place. e not all...different from one another. It shows some cohesiveness industrial park. We're giving some pretty wide latitude for the )per to .establish those general parameters but once they're ished we'd like to maintain them. Plan~ Decen Erha~ that to s, 3ust the 100 whatE Krau., we d~ have pondJ runo Lund that desi~ from we 'T, We 'r~ befo Erha purp, Krau~ $omet Batz] Lund~ Krau.· Erha) of tt Krau.~ in tt write Erha Krau: Erha Krau,, there ErhaT odd. late~ it a~ ing Commission Meeting bet 4, 1991 - Page 21 t: Kent, you're all in agreement with that condition? Okay. $o s a trend that we're going to probably be seeing, we can look forward eing I guess. It's okay with me. I like it. I thought it was new. again for my benefit here, the drainage pond. Is the object to take ntire 94 acres and not increase the drainage from that parcel at the ear storm? In other words, you can use existin8 interior ponds and vet you have to meet that goal? Is that what? s: Yeah. Until we have an overall comprehensive drainage plan, which n't have right now, we have to operate the city the way. that we always up until now which is that sites have to be developed with sufficient ng so that post development runoff rates don't exceed pre-development f rates. Now to that we've added a new condition that we did with ten and we're doing on this one that not only that but we want to know your pond is designed and usually is oversized and structurally ned so that you're removing a significant percentage of the nutrients the storm water. So that before it gets discharged into Bluff Creek, modulating the rate at which the water is going to.hit the creek and hopefully maintaining or even possibly improving the water quality e it gets there. t: And to what degree possible you can use existing ponds for that se? s: Well we could if there were any but there's aren't on this. imes you've got to watch it... i: Put in those fancy new ponds that we talked about over at the 'eh Development. The NRP stuff. Yeah, that's what we're doing here: t: What's the 30 day comment period in the EQB Monitor? Is that one ose things I missed at the one meeting or is that something new? s: No. It's been that way since the 70's. When you get it published e Monitor, it basically says here it is. If you've got comments, t: Who gets that? s: I get one. t: The planning professionals? s: Mostly planning professionals.-Regulatory agencies. I think 's some interested environmental groups that sign up for it. t: Okay. And lastly I think, you know this outlot negotiations.seems To establish a price per lot for the Park and Rec and then come back and negotiate for the outlot but you obviously are experts at that so :ears to, are there any other questions or comments? Plann Decem Batzl somet Aanen 8atzl Kraus -into, needs share Aanen Erhar Aanen stand Erhar someo There Conra make Erhar have at tk trail down the 1 do it ConTa and i It's Erhar COnT~ ConT~ Aaner Erha~ on t~ Conr& ng Commission Meeting ,er 4, 1991 - Page 22 : Number 28? Why is there a condition in here that we do · ling? ~on: We can change that. Take it out. · : Was that intended to be in here? : Occasionally we want to put ourselves on notice that we're buying we're acknowledging that we're going to do something. The Council to recognize that. You know inevitably there's going to be a city of the cost of that thing. :on: We did add one Brian, by the way..29. R condition. : Would you go through that again. on: Okay. Condition 29 is we left out the,' back in the development lrds for the PUD. · : Just a second Kathy. This is getting really complex. Could e kind of raise their hand to try and get a motion together on this. were some changes. : Whoever makes the motion I think should work through it. As they ~he motion they should go point by point with staff. : Yeah, that's kind of where I'm going with this is we're going to ;o kind of go through what you did once and maybe we'll go through 29 it point. The other thing I'd like to add is to make sure we have a the ability to put a trail from the end of the western cul-de-sac .o the trail so when we get to that motion. The issue appears to be ~ndscaping. What I thought I heard the consensus was to allow them to on a staged basis. It looked like 3 to 2 at this time. I. think we should just raise, ~'s obviously raised at City Council. They'll pay attention to it. close one. It's one that could go either way. Where in the motion is that addressed Kathy? That's under the 29 rioht? son: That's my number 30. thought 29 was your design and landscaping criteria? 3on: Yeah, but I'm not sure. -: With that then, why don't we start. Brian, can you make a motion is? Or who wants to? d: Well we've got to make a motion to rezone first. Plant. lng Commission Heating Decal>er 4, 1991 - Page 23 Krauss: [ was just looking at the way this was structured and you could chan~ that first motion to the staff recommends that the rezoning to PUD andF~JD Preliminary and well it's got to be changed. Preliminary and Final stage plan. Erhar that ConTa Erhar COnT~ Ahrer Erhar Conra Busir Ahrer Conrt ~grtc Chanf Erhar what Aanel $2,5C app 1 ] $12,C SO W( Stri flaw, a pet just Batz Aane that floo use are. Conrz that Krauc. chan¢ deli ~: We'll just go from the beginning. again. Let's do the zoning first. , . Why don't you go ahead and read He wants to combine it. No. He doesn't care. Let's Just. Okay, who wants to make a motion? I'll move that the property that's described as the Chanhassen ,ss Center be rezoned from A-2 to 'PUD. : Second. d moved, Ahrens seconded to approve the Rezoning of property from A-2, ultural Estate to PUD, Planned Unit Development-Industrial for the assert Business Center. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Okay, now a motion on the PUD. Kathy would you go again through son: Okay. Number 2. The typo. It says $3,500.00. That should be O.O0. On number 8, that has been completed. You can just. say the cant shall petition the City for a feasibility report. We put.the O0.O0 in and that's really, I'm not sure that's an exact dollar amount 're just recommending you strike out, and provide a $12,000.00 escrow. e that. 19. That 36~. We feel like those calculations may be d. We'd recommend that, just say the developer may be responsible for centage of the cost for the traffic signals. It may be 5~ but we'd ~s soon leave it open at this point. l: What if we say a large percentage? son: Not to exceed 50~. Number 22. We talked about this. It says the parcels located along Audubon Road contain at least 50~ of their area in office space. We'd like to strike that 50~. If we want to oma other language. If we can leave that open to What the concerns The design of those buildings. d: Yeah, all parcels located along Audubon meet a design criteria what? Works within the context of the neighborhood. s: We'd like your authorization to refine that. We didn't have much ~ to do that. We talked about it this afternoon but we talked about ing the type of building that's appropriate there. It's not a 50 foot Planning Commission Meeting Decem er 4, 1991 - Page 24 .. high >ase section but it's a lower profile. .More. office oriented towards the s~reet and more windows. We know what we're getting at but we have to come ~p with the exact language. Aanen :on: Okay, and then 25. The applicants this clarification. On 25(c) All light fixtures shall be shielded. Light levels should be no more ,hah half candle at the property line. They want clarification that that' for site lighting. Does not apply to street lighting. And the last one, add you're right. 29. Site and landscaping screening. If you want to flLp to page 10. We've outlined the criteria for site and landscape lng and in that, number 4 the criteria is that all of the buffer la aping in Phase 1 be completed. $o you can either change that whole 1, 2 3, 4, 5 needs to be added as a condition. But if you want to change 4 to reflect. Conr : Kate, in number 2. Didn't you want to change the words in there? Don: Yes. And/or. Thank you Ladd. Batzl : I'm sorry, where was that? maso ;on: On number 2. All approved outdoor storage must be screened with fences and/or landscaping. Did you want 4 to reflect the seeding? and seeded for Phase i instead of completed landscaped? Er : Do you want to put that in 29? Aane ;on: Yeah. Er : Sure, go ahead · : So it will be developed in a phased manner? Aane lon: Yeah. Conr : We're sort of doing this, this is sort of a committee approach. Er : You've also got all these conditions here. Conr : I think as you presented this to Council you have to reflect both si of the issue obviously. Er : Is there any restrictions on this phasing that we can think of that would want to, for those who are proponents of the phasing? Is ther anything? : Well actually it would be kind of nice to put some Sort of dead in there though I think. They can phase it so long as it doesn't take lore than x years. Erha' : I'm an opponent of the phasing. I favor that. Any other comments on Anybody...into that? Plann.ng Commission Meeting Decem ,er 4, 1991 - Page 25- Ahren : I don't know if I'd go with putting in years. Like within 5-years or so ething? Batzl : Yeah. How long do you want it to look half finished? Ahren : Well it depends on if they're vacant lots. Does it look half fini ...supposed to look. Batzl : I don't know. A sodded berm with nothing on top of it with trees goi and then stopping and then the next. Let's say they leave Lot and develop Lot 11. Lot 10, you have trees going to Lot I0. Nothing. I do t know. I think it's going to look half finished. I'm willing to let ~emdo that because it's reasonable but. Ahre : What do you consider a reasonable amount of time? Batz : I don't know. That's a good question. Er : When do you expect the development to be filled o.ut? Kent lson: It's hard to say. 5 to 7 years... 8atz : I don't know. I like $ years but that's just me. I'm allowing them defer costs for 5 years. I think that's a pretty big concession' in a personally. Ahre : I could go along with 5 years. 5rha' : Ladd, do you have any input on that one way or the other? Co : Not at all. I don't care. ~' : One way or the other? Co : No, don't care. E' : Jeff. Farm~ kes: I'd like to see the whole thing put in. Erhal : Why don't we just leave it up to staff. Aanel : My feeling is, if we put a time limit on it they'll come in if it's completed and we'll have a chance to talk to you about why and what going on. Erha~t: And then I think the last thing is, is there a condition here to put hat trail in there or is that Aane son: That will be 30. Erhalt: Okay, 30. With that. Batz i: Can we' delete number 28? Plann.ng Commission Meeting Decem )er 4, 1991 m -- Page 26 Conra : No, that's okay. Batzl : You like that? Conra : Yeah. Batzl : Okay. Conra : What's the trail? Erhar : The trail is to allow an easement or something. It may already exis on utility easement. From the park to walk off the end of the west cul- D-sac and get onto the trail system without having to go essentially out Audubon. Batzl : What kind of access to the pond and stuff is there going to be? Er the p in t an : Well there needs'to be final definition of that for approval by ineer but we're thinking of you can grade in like a Class V and then over it so you can, with a slope adequate enough'so that we can get e and use a backhoe and clean out. $0 if you're going to do that , putting a trail in is easy. Batz : Putting a trail in is no big deal. Er : My point was just to make sure that we can do it. When we do Pha II. Conr : Tim do you want to change number 11 and get the words if feasible out it? Er : Oh yeah. : I'd just strike the words if feasible. Conr : Yeah, let's get rid of them. And then what do we need to do with the )tbacks that have been changed? Aane :on: I'll just make that. If you want to say as corrected in ~he star' report or something. Er : Is everybody comfortable that we've got essentially the, we all u ,and what, if the motion is made what we're moving on? I guess so. $o ne go ahead. I don't know that we have to go through all the items agai . 3ust make a simple motion. Batz i: I move that the Planning Commission recommends approval of PUD Prel y Plan for Chanhassen Business Center. Krau s: Preliminary and Final stage. Batz] i: Yeah. As set forth in the staff report dated whenever it's dated. 12/4, 917 Is that it? Plann Decem Kraus Batzl they just Erhar ConTa Erhar Conr8 don't note Aane~ in t~ Krau~ Conre Aaner ConTe Erhar Batz] apprc Busi subj, 1. · · · · ng Commission Meeting ,er 4, 1991 - Page 27 Yeah· : And set forth on the plans, whenever these plans are dated. If e dated. Received October 22, 1991. With all of the changes that liscussed. :: Is there a second? Yeah, I'll second· Discussion? d: Yeah· Kate, you brought up something that I wrote down and I know if it got reflected. Revised right-of-way standards. I had a ~own. Revised right-of-way standards. Did we incorporate? son: Yeah, it was 17 feet of additional right-of-way. We've got that ~ conditions. s: Condition 26. Was that 26? son: Yeah. d: Okay. Any other discussion? t moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission recommend val of Preliminary and Final Stage PUD Plan #91-4 for the Chanhassen ess Center based on the plans stam~d "Received October 22, 1991' and ct to the following conditions: final PUD plan approval be subject to the 30 day comment period after 3ublic notice of publication of the EAW in the EQB Monitor and a Finding by the City Council that an Environmental Impact Statement is not required. The applicant will be required to pay park dedication ($2,500.O0/acre) ~nd trail fees ($833.00/acre') in the development contract. No ~evelopment shall occur on Outlet A as it shall be preserved as open ~pace. The trail system shall be required to loop even if it is on a temporary basis. The development standards as proposed by staff shall be incorporated into the PUD development guide for the Business Center. Site plan approval from the city will need to be obtained for each lot ~s development is proposed. .- 3rovide an additional 17 feet of right-of-way along the westerly side of Audubon Road throughout the plat. Provide the 20 foot wide drainage and utility easements over the proposed sewer and water lines outside Planning Commission Meeting December 4, 1991 - Page 28 · · · , 10. 12. he road right-of-way, provide a 20 foot drainage and utility asement for the sanitary sewer proposed along the west side of. udubon Road lying south of the proposed main entrance· he main entrance street shall be named Lake Drive West consistent ,ith the future extension of Lake Drive West east of Audubon Road.- If curb cut is allowed for Lot 1 on to Audubon Road, it shall be ocated a minimum of 500 feet north of the proposed main entrance Lake Drive) and provide for a deceleration lane. 'rovide the City Engineering Department with storm sewer calculations ~esigned for a 10 year storm event and ponding calculations to show ~hat the ponds will retain a 100 year storm event and will discharge ~t a predeveloped runoff rate. Oata shall be provided on nutrient emoval capacity of all ponds for review and approval by the City. A ~econdary retention pond should be constructed for the northerly 15 ~cres of the site which drain to and parallel of the railroad tracks Lots 4 and 6). he applicant shall petition the City for a feasibility report for the 9xtension of a trunk sewer line to service Phase II of the site which ~ill be refunded upon project approval and authorization by the City Council. If only Phase I Of the site is graded, silt fence shall be incorporated along the perimeter of the construction limits and if the entire site is graded, Type III erosion control shall be installed and ~aintained along the westerly perimeter of the construction limits. All areas disturbed during site gradin~ shall be immediately restored ~ith seed and disc mulched, sod or wood-fiber blanket within two weeks >f site grading or before November 15, 1992, except in'areas where ~tilities and streets will be constructed yet that year. Areas altered with a slope of 3:1 or greater must be restored with sod-or wood-fiber blanket. As a part of the erosion control measures, the applicant shall be required to remove any materials that enter into Bluff Creek. The watermain loop between Lots 8. and 9 shall be extended to within 10 :net of the southerly property line and then proceed, east and parallel ~o the south property line back to Audubon Road. The applicant shall provide the Engineering Department with the calculations estimating the capacity of the sanitary sewer line through Lake Susan Hills West development and the predicted flows each' lot will generate. A convenant regulating the amount of discharge from Phase I shall be placed in the title of each parcel as well as in the development contract to ensure that flows will not exceed capacity limitations downstream. The sanitary sewer lines in Phase I should be switched to flow into the trunk sanitary sewer system proposed for ~hase II. Inside slopes of the retention ponds shall be reduced %o a minmum of 4:1. Plann Deceml 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 20. 21. 22. 23. .rig Commission Meeting ~er 4, ]ggl - Page 29 .s a condition of final plat approval, the applicant shall enter into development contract and provide the financial security to guarantee =onstruction of the improvements. 'he developer shall construct the utility and street improvements in ~ccordance with the latest edition of the city's standard ~pecifications and shall prepare final plans and specifications and ~ubmit for city approval. Project specifications shall incorporate .he city's standard specifications. The developer shall acquire Ltility construction permits from the PCA and Minnesota Department of iealth. he developer shall obtain all necessary permits from the Watershed istrict, DNR and Army Corps of Engineers and comply with all onditions of the permits. Drainage plans shall be revised as lutlined in the approved staff report and shall be resbumitted to city :tall for approval. The applicant shall obtain permission/permit from he railroad authority for all grading activities within the railroad .roperty. 'he developer shall incorporate street lights into the street :onstruction plans. The street lights should be installed at 150 to !00 foot intervals. The street lights shall be designed consistent ;ith existing lighting on Audubon Road. A 250-watt contemporary low-profile rectilinear-rectangular style lighting fixture with :ressure lamps mounted on a 25 foot high corten steel pole (see ~ttachment #2). No 17 on the staff report.) he entire tract of land development shall be assessed for the future trunk sewer system to be built for Phase II ( Lots 6, 7,' 8 9 and 12). The Developer shall be responsible for a percentage of the costs for traffic signals at Audubon and TH 5. The permitted uses in this zone shall be limited to light industrial, ~arehousing an doffices as defined in the PUD ordinance. Truck transfer terminals shall be prohibited from this project. All parcels located along Audubon Road shall meet a design criteria and that the office components.of the building be oriented towards the exterior of the PUD. 3uilding materials and designs shall be: · All materials shall be of high quality and durable. Masonry material shall be used. Color shall be introduced through colored block or panels and not painted block. b. Brick may be used and'must be approved to assure uniformity. Plann,ng Commission Meeting Decem,er 4, 1991 - Page 30 24. 25. · Stone shall have a weathered face or. be polished, fluted, or broken face· · Concrete may be poured in place, tilt-up or precast, and shall be finished in stone, textured or coated. Metal siding will not be approved except as support material to one of the above materials or curtain wall on office compo~ents' or, as trim or as HVAC screen. · All accessory structures shall be designed to be compatible with the primary structures. All roof mounted equipment shall be screened by walls of compatible appearing material. Wood screen fences are prohibited. All exterior process machinery, tanks, etc.,-are to be fully screened by compatible materials. Large unadorned walls shall be prohibited. All walls shall be given added architedtural interest through building design or appropr late landscaping. · Space for recycling shall be provided in the interior of all principal structures for all developments in the Business Center. 11 freestanding signs be limited to monument signs. The sign shall exceed eighty (80) square feet in sign 'display area nor be greater eight (8) feet in height. . Each property shall be allowed one monument sign located near the driveway into the private site. · All signs require a separate permit. The signage will have consistency throughout the development· common theme will be introduced at the development's entrance monument and will be used throughout. · Consistency in signage shall relate to color, size, materials and heights. The street lights should be designed consistent with the existing lighting along Audubon Road. A decorative, shoebox fixture (high pressure sodium vapor lamps) with a square ornamental pole shall be used throughout the development area for area lighting. b. Lighting equipment similar to what is. mounted in the public street right-of-ways shall be used in the pzivate areas. c. Ali light fixtures for site li~ting shall be shielded. Light level should be no more than 1/2 candle at the property line. Plan~ Decem 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. Krau~. that are Erhar Aaner Krau.~ Lng Commission Heeting >er 4, 1991 - Page 3:]. ~n additional 17 feet of right-of-way on Audubon Road is required. .ake Drive Nest shall have a 60 foot right-of-way. The right-of-way shall be 80 f~et from the intersection of Audubon Road to the short :ul-de-sac off of Lake Drive West. The radius on the curbs at audubon ~oad shall be 30 feet. the entrance drive to Lot 1 be moved to the north (approximately 500 :eet north of Lake Drive West so that it aligns with the existing Jrive to the east of the Stockdale property). the city shall work with MnDot to request that a traffic signal be installed to coincide with the'completion of Phase I Of construction. .. [. All open spaces and non-parking lot surfaces shall be landscaped,' rockscaped, or covered with plantings and/or lawn material. 2. Storage of material outdoors is prohibited unless it has been approved under site plan review. All approved outdoor storage must be screened with masonry fences and/or landscaping. . The master landscape plan for the CBC PUD 'shall be the design guide for all of the specific site landscape developments. Each lot must present a landscape plan for approval with the site plan review process. . The buffer areas proposed along the internal public roadways and southerly property line to and along Audubon Road shall be bermed and seeded at the completion of Phase I with landscaping to occur as the sites develop. 5. Loading areas shall be screened from public right-of-ways. Wing wall may be required where deemed appropriate. ~n easement from the park walking off the end'of the western cul-de-sac to get onto the trail system without having to go out onto ~udubon. rhe applicant shall comply with all Conditions of the preliminary :lat. 3ted in favor and the motion carried. s: Can we also get a motion on the preliminary plat? We didn't set dp but there's a preliminary plat before you as well. The conditions n here but. t: Okay. You want another motion on the preliminary plat? son: We did both with that. Oh, did you cover that? Aaner )on: We did preliminary and final. Commission Heeting 4, 1991 - Page 32 : No, no. You did preliminary and final stage PUD plan. You didn't do plat. : Could we go back then and amend our motion to put in one more .ion? Conr : Is this a bartering deal? Er : Do you do this when Steve's here? Batz : The only question is, normally we throw in a condition that the p ,ng and this kind of stuff is tied to one another and that it's cont lent on them following through on all the conditions'so we kind of it over. $o I'd like to move that we add to our last motion a cond ion 31 which the applicant shall comply with all conditions of the prel inary plat that we're Just about to pass. Co : I would second that. Er : Did we vote on, we voted on the first one. Can we do this? You can officially, the prevailing side can re-open and reco ider. Er : Okay, any discussion on that then. moved, Conrad seconded to amend the Preliminary and Final Stage PUD to a condition 31 which reads, the applicant shall comply with all ;ions of the preliminary plat. All voted in favor and the motion Batz : I move that the Planning Commission recommends approval of a Prel inary Plat according to the staff report with condition that the appl :ant meets all conditions set forth inthe Preliminary and Final PUD, ,er this'thing was. Preliminary plan and according to the plans r dated and stamped "Received October 22, 1991". Co : I'll second that. Ahr : October 21st you mean? : The plans were dated October 21st? : 22nd. : I don't know. Er : Whenever they were submitted. Any more discussion? Batz moved, Conrad seconded to approve Preliminary Plat #91-13 LUR for the nhassen Business Center based on the plans stamped 'Received October 22, ' and subject to the following conditions= Planr Dece~ · · · · · · · · · 10. 11. 12. 13. Commission Meeting 4, ;1991 - Page 33 3rovide an.additional 17 feet of right-of-way along the westerly side ~f Audubon Road throughout the plat· ~rovide the 20 foot wide drainage and utility easements over the :roposed sewer and water lines outside the road right-of-waY. 3rovide a 20 foot drainage and utility easement for the sanitary sewer :roposed along the west side of Audubon Road lying south of the ~roposed main entrance. The main entrance street shall be named Lake Drive West consistent ,ith the future extension of Lake Drive West east of Audubon Road. ~rovide the City Engineering Department with storm sewer calcuations designed for a 10 year storm event and ponding calculations to show Chat the ponds will retain a 100 year storm event and will discharge ~t the predeveloped runoff rate· " If a curb cut is allowed for Lot i onto Audubon Road, it shall be [ocated a minimum of 500 feet north of the proposed main entrance (Lake Drive West) and provide a deceleration lane. rhe applicant shall petition the City and provide a $12,000.00 escrow for preparation of a feasibility report for the extension of a trunk sewer line to service Phase II of the site which will be refunded upon ~roject approval and authorization by the City Council. q secondary retention pond should be constructed for the northerly 15 acres of the site which drain to and parallel of the railroad tracks Lots 4 and 6). f only Phase I of the site is graded, silt fence shall be [ncorporated along the perimeter of the construction limits and if the ~ntire site is graded, Type III-erosion control shall be installed and maintained along the westerly perimeter of the construction limits. The watermain loop between Lots 8' and 9 shall be extended to within 10 =eet of the southerly property line and then proceed east and parallel ~o the south property line back to Audubon Road. the applicant shall provide the Engineering Department with the :alculations estimating the capacity of the sanitary sewer line ~hrough Lake Susan Hills development and the predicted flows each lot ~ill generate. Sanitary sewer discharge through Lake Susan Hills West 3rd Addition shall be considered a temporary condition if future trunk facilities on Audubon Road can feasibly serve Phase I. ~ covenant regulating the amount of discharge from Phase I shall be ~laced in the title of each parcel as well as in the development ;ontract to insure that flows will not exceed capacity limitations downstream. Inside slopes of the retention ponds shall be reduced to a minimum of ¢:1. Planning Commission Meeting Dece~er 4, 1991 - Page 34 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. a condition of final plat 'approval, the applicant shall, enter into development contract and provide the financial security to guarantee onstruction of the improvements. developer shall construct the utility and street improvements in .ccordance with the latest edition of the City's standard fications and shall prepare final plans and specifications and t for city approval. Project specifications shall incorporate he city's standard specifications. The developer shall acquire .tility construction permits from the PCA and Minnesota Department )f Health. 'he developer shall obtain all necessary permits from the Watershed strict, DNR and Army Corps of Engineers and comply with all :onditions of the permits. Drainage plans shall be revised as outlined .n the approved staff report and shall be resbumitted to city staff :or approval. applicant shall obtain permission/permit from the railroad ;hority for all grading activities within the railroad property. 'he developer shall incorporate street lights into the street ;onstruction plans. The street lights should be installed at 150 to foot intervals. The street lights shall be designed consistent th existing lighting on Audubon Road. A 250 watt contemporary low ile rectilinear-rectangular style lighting fixture wi. th pressure amps mounted on a 25 foot high corten steel pole (see Attachment #2). 11 areas disturbed during site grading shall.be immediately restored ith seed and disc mulched, sod or wood-fiber blanket within two weeks site grading or before November 15, 1992 except in areas where ilities and streets will be constructed yet that year. Areas altered ith a slope of 3:1 or greater must be restored with sod or wood fiber anket. entire tract of land development shall be assessed for the future unk sewer system to be built for Phase II (Lots 6, 7, 8, 9 and 12). sanitary sewer lines in Phase I should be swithced to flow into trunk sanitary sewer system proposed in Phase II. developer shall be responsible for a share of the cost for traffic gnals on Audubon Road at Lake Drive West and TH 5. in favor and the motion carried. : Is there anything else anybody wants passed? Thanks for coming. k forward to having your development here in our city. : Good job. Planning Commission Meeting December 4, 1991 - Page 35 PUBLI ZONZN RECRE Publi Mark Ivan Bill Berni Kate Erhar Mark Homeo First reque ordin Aanen Mark Erhar Kraus to ge This had t older infor What over who ' s thing Give it fr Mark I gue wou 1 d on th aSsOC: Kraus Aanen Kraus i nyc 1 HEARING: ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO REqUiRE AN INTERIM USE PERMIT %TION~L BEACHLOTS. Present: ~aMe Address ~ogers 3nderdahl :inlayson Schneider 3851Leslee Curve 7502 77th Street 6320 Fir Tree 7501 77th Street ~anenson presented the staff report on this item. Vice Chairman called the public hearing to order. ~ogers: My name is Mark Rogers. I'm with the Pleasant Acres ~ners Association on Minnewashta. Just had a couple of small things. a question. It's my understanding ~hat-this ordinance grew out of a st from the City Council. Is that true? .To develop such an ~nce. son: Recreation beachlot ordinance in general? ~ogers: The one we're talking about, yeah. ': Change it to a temporary. s: No. This pertains to the, in all the new beachlots are required ; a conditional use permit and they have done that. You're correct. >rginally came from concerns that were raised, well problems that we > deal with but concerns that were raised by the Ci{y Council that the beachlots are much tougher to regulate. There isn't a good set of )ation or guidelines to know exactly what is allowed on these things. Je've heard and what we've seen and what the Council's told us is that- :he years more and more boats start showing up and it's not clear entitled to what out there. So the idea Came down to permit these s. Figure out once and for all exactly what folks are entitled to. :hem a permit for that and then it's a fairly easy matter to regulate )m that point on. ~ogers: Okay. I've got several points. He just touched on one that ss I'll leave until last. It's the greatest. With paragraph 8, I say that the notification should not only go to the property owners lake but also all affected property owners in the individual ations. Which should be an easy thing to do. : Is it? I mean are all these people listed as owners of beachlots? son: We've been sending them to the homeowners associations. s: I'm not so sure it's alwaQs so easy to find out exactly who's /ed in each one. Plann Decem Mark anybo notic and t Kraus makin prope Mark with guess assoc peopl Erhar that beach woulC Mark Aane~ other Mark Erhar Conra thou~ Mark diffe COnT8 Mark Aaner $o it ConTa Mar k prope cond~ even Conr~ permi Lng Commission Meeting )er 4, 1991 - Page 36 ~ogers: No, but your notice here actually doesn't even mention from the beachlot. It just says the property owners and the public In our case our association has a Quit Claim Deed to the property individuals in the association are not listed on that. 3: Oh, what this is referring to though is your beachlot will be ~ an application and this tells us how we have to notify all the other ty owner~ around there of your request. logers: But we would certainly want to know about what's happening ~he other beachlots that might be on our lake and so forth. So I that's what I'm driving at. It would take some work to talk to the ;ations to find out the addresses and so forth but the names of the would not, would vary but the addresses of those homes would not. [: Okay, so when you use the terms owners of property on ~he lake, does not, it may not necessarily mean that the owner is of other .ors. It's not clear. So you just want that clarified that that include other beachlot owners? logers: Right. son: $o for every beachlot that's going for review, you want every beachlot notified of that review? Bogers: I think so. t: On that lake. d: That's not what you're saying. Ah, then I misunderstood. I qt you wanted everybody notified in the homeowners association. Bogers: You are correct. I guess maybe we're describing it rently. You're not concerned about a different beachlot? ~ogers: Well that I am too. son: So everyone would be notified of everybody else's hearings-too. d be every month... : What would that? Booers: The purpose, it would affect us just as much as the other rty owners on the lake. If they're being notified of some changes or ~ions of some permit, why wouldn't we, as a matter of fact, it might reflect us more than the other property owners on the lake. : Now my understanding was this was a one time deal. To get the L. Aanerson: Right. To give them an understanding of what they can build in. Plan Dece~ ConT& deal this COnSE beac~ don't Mar k don't Aaner Mark thin be s. when ConTa and f asso¢ Aaner the ~ Conr~ asso¢ these ever~ k now, asso¢ lette sensl Mark meet. reque he dj him, for a isn't aSSOC Erhar Ivan it we purp¢ Erhar Ivan Erhar the ~ ins Commission Meeting bet 4, 1991 - Page 37 d: Right. So this is not a forever type deal.. This is a one time to get notification to everybody in that homeowners association that is what is permitted. Or to review what is permitted and get nsus so that the city has an idea of what is permitted in that lot. $o to inform other beachlots about your particular situation, I know that that's. Rogers: Well you can't do them all at once. I'm anticipating, I know how many there are. son: 13. Rogers: Okay, 13. You can't do 13 in one night. At least I wouldn't so. And I would like to know when the other ones are up. They might milar to ours. They might be different from ours. I'd 'like to know those meetings are. d: But for us to call and find out, or are we going to have to call ind out everybody anyway? If we send notice to everybody in the iation. son: We've been doing...the homeowners association president. That's ay we've been doing it. d: Yeah. It's going to be that person's job. The-homeowner's iation to deliver a list and so what you're saying is everytime one of 13 comes in and send out a notice of public hearing to everybody in homeowners association, which we're talking about a l,O00 or you it's a big number of how many people are in the homeowners iations with beachlots. You're talking about mailing out 1,500 rs everytime somebody is doing something. It probably makes more to send it out to the president of the homeowners association. Rogers: Well, it's just like', for instance the mailing for this ng came to me and not to the president. At the last meeting I had sted that at least I get a copy and I checked with the president and d not get one for this. And had I not you know happened to talk to 3e would have been unaware of this meeting. If it's important enough 1 of the property owners on the lake to be notified about it, why it important enough for all of the homeowners in the homeowners iation to be notified about? ~: Do you have a point on thls specific subject? Jnderdahl: Yeah I guess I-had a question. We've been here...but when s first brought up here now, I guess I almost question what was the se of having this item on the agenda tonight? 5: Okay, and your name is? Jnderdahl: Ivan Underdahl. [: Let's step back a moment because it's not clear in my mind what [story is here again. Plann .ng Commission Heating Deceml,er 4, 1991 - Page 38 Aanen'.~on: Okay, when the recreational beachlot was adopted, Ivan nderdahl: You asked for public comment so I thought that was the right time. Conra, : He didn't mean you literally step back. I think he figuratively. Erbar : No, no, no. Steve, stay up there. I'm really asking your. first quest on myself because it wasn't clear in my mind so. Aanen.;on: There were existing beachlots that were in place that were grand thered in. What has happened over time is there was no one when those were adopted, those that were grandfathered in, there was not inven:ory of what they had in place. Over time there's been complaints that :hose have expanded beyond what was grandfathered in. What we're tryin to do is come up with a mechanism, to establish what they were grand athered in with. Erhar : Okay, and we have not done that before? Aane on: No. The other ones have been given conditional use and we ished what they can have. We can go out and cite them for expanding. T 13 that we're talking about, we need to establish what they can as far grandfathered. Erhar : The primary objective is to get. : This is establishing a baseline. ~on: Exactly. Conr : And so the point of tonight's meeting was to develop the process to that but not we're not reviewing those 13 at all tonight. We're just sayi , what has to happen to get those 13 beachlots. And inventory of 13 beachlots. How do we do it? Do we mail everybody a notice lO days ior to public hearing? $o that's what we're here tonight to do. Not review. Ivan nderdahl: ...policies besides this and I guess if somebody hadn't. up, it sounds like that's all there is to it. It sounds like you were to, there was going to be nothing more about it. Er : I guess we were hoping that somebody would stand up. That's the ~e of this procedure. Ivan Inderdahl: And as far as notice for this evening., our association didn receive any notice as far as I' know. We saw it in the paper and we'r only here to... Er : Could you comment? Mark letS: How many lakes are we talking about? Conr : 7 lakes. Plan Dece~ Mark COnT8 ring Commission Meeting 3er 4, 1991 - Page 39 Rogers: So it's not just Minnewashta? d: Right, everyone. Aane Ivan that acce withc Kraus of ti r son: Lotus. Riley. Jnderdahl: When you think of grandfathering now, d'oes this...permit s required, is the implication now that if they're trying to be ting the granfathering or reconsideration of the total situation at...? s: We do have some, there was some sporatic inventories done a couple nes and we have information as to what we think was there then.- We're askirg you to also provide information on what you think was there at the time this became grandfathered in as a non-conformity. I guess the way we envieion it is there's something of a negotiation process there. I mean ultimately they may accept what's there today if that's reasonable based on what we think was there back then or we may ask that it go back to something. Ivan Jnderdahl: I guess that was my point. If this permit that is going to hz ~e to be obtained is simply going to be adoption or the only thing you can ~ ~ply for is what existed as far as the grandfathering is concerned? Krau~ s: Well, to be honest our information isn't exactly enough to come in and .~ay you had 3 boats back there in 1980, what was it 2. And that's defiritely what it is. Aane~ ~on: We gave them that information following that so we gave them the i nver ;cry that we thought... . . (TheYe was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Ivan Jnderdahl: I guess my point was the permit that can be applied for now. Is that going to stipulate that you can only have what was there at the t '.me of the ordinance or is-it open ~o new conditions or situations? Or i~ it just going to be... Olse : You'll get an opportunity to make a case in front of the Planning Corem ssion and the Council. Mark Rogers: I thought that's what we're doing tonight. Bern · Schneider: I think that's probably the toughest part of that proc~s as I see it because the ordinance itself is worded very loosely in regards to that so that's going to be a very tense process to try and get that ~own to just what we... / · Bill~inlayson: I see the Minnewashta Association's beachlot as a lot on the ~each that is not much different than either one of my neighbors who have,lots on their beach. Nobody's regulating the amount of boats that any home.net on Lake Minnewashta can own. I-mean if in 1982 they had one boat and n 1989 that had 2 boats, I don't understand-why it makes a difference Plant Decen whet~ boats Erha~ discu peop] Bill Commission Meeting 4, 1991 - Page 40 mr Minneswashta beach association had 15 boats and then in 1992 has 16 · It's not clear to me why this all came about· The history of what. Let me clarify one thing for procedure here. The informal ssion here is fine. Are we messing up the Minutes by not getting names? Okay, your name was that just spoke. =inlayson: I'm Bill Finlayson from the Minnewashta Beach Association. I'm the chairman. ErhaYt: Okay procedure, would you like to get back to formal where we have one ~ :eaker at a time or is it okay to keep it informal? Krau~ 2: I think it would help on the Minutes if we could· ErhaYt: Yeah if you could stand back up again and then we'll. Again your name Mark Rogers: Mark Rogers. Pleasant Acres on Minnewashta. And again I'd just like to reiterate that what's contained in the first paragraph, the · quot( being permits shall be issued following receipt of satisfactory proof conc( rning the nature and extent of the legal non-conforming use. I'm real nerve as about what that means as far as the process and what goes into settJ lg those limits. That is the whole meat of the ordinance really. I agree with the intent of it. I can certainly see yours and others needs'to want to know what's there and regulate what's there but I just don't know how u e can improve this or if we should improve it in the ordinance but I feel like there's great potention that we could ~et stuck with something that ,ould be very difficult to live with. Erha~ 5: What's the key, one of the beachlots organization to stuff all kind.~ of uses in there just before they come in for the hearing; and saying they ye been doing that forever? Krau~ s: Well I think it's clear that that's why we're not ~oing to accept the ~.tatus quo as of whatever date they come in. I mean some of the beac lots are perfectly fine and frankly we don't know very well if they had boats or 5 boats back there in 1982. And if they had fairly good ratic nale to support it, I mean it's a negotiating process I suppose and it's going to be negotiated in front of you and the City Council. 8ut you know ,e would have some information· They would have some information. We'l] have to work out what's fair with that. But if you've got a beachlot that in 1982 had 2 boats and now it has 15, something is seriously remiss and t ~e clock's going to probably have to be turned back to some extent· Er haT 5: Do we have any way to know that in 1982 it had 2 boats? Aane~son: We've done 3 inventories. And when we met with the homeowners asso4iations, we presented them with what we had as our best information and ~e asked them to go back and check their records, photographs and prov de us with what they have as their best information. Some of the home, ~ners associations have lotteries so they have receipts of fees so they can actually document. Plan~ Decer Erha~ advaT Aanel Mar k the the 53. sere shou, peop, AhreT when Mark AhreT Batz] real that intel Ivan it's lng Commission Meeting bet 4, 1991 - Page 41 t: So your idea is essentially negotiate as much of this prior, in' ce prior to bringing this to the Planning Commission. son: We've met with them once and provided that. Rogers: That's right and I have that in front of me here. Even in 991 there were several errors so I can't speak for the earlier sments. But part of this is in 1982 which was when I believe they had nitial assessment of how many homes. Say you had written down like There's 80 now and one more subdivision going in and property for al others. $o there's obviously pressure that would be very intense d we cut back to what's recorded for the 1981 levels.- So that's why e are going to get excited abou.t this. s: Isn't what Mark's talking about, what is going to be discussed their permit application comes before the Planning Commission? Rogers: Sort of. s: We're not discussing. i: No, but he's talking about the fairness of the process and he I, think, he's questioning our surveys but I think even more than e s saying that probably there's more houses and ,the uses have sified and people are going to be angry if .we turn back the clock. Underdahl: I'd just like to point out another situation too where not necessarily an intensification for people who are there now but the lact that at the time this ordinance went into effect, there were just a vel~ limited number of people that would even have chosen to use it. Or that ived there so there really weren't 'as many boats there at the time se of the relatively new development. And on our situation there were y 2 people that had chosen to have boats there. Most of the lots were vacant. Several of those members lived directly on the lake. Had thei own docks and private locations. So now when there are more resi encee there, they would like to have boats there too... But there were only 3 parties that could have had an interest in having boats there at the time the ordinance was developed...our grandfathering would say limited to 2. it's not clear because the reason there weren't any more'boats ther at the time was there weren't people there to have-them. Conr : Then the current ordinance should apply to you. That's real clea. That just doesn't make sense. If people didn't have them there, that d give you rights if you used it then but then the ordinance, the curt ordinance that's good for everybody else should apply to you right now. Ivan dahl: The current ordinance would limit it to 2 boats'.- be all. d: Well the current ordinance should apply to everything that's not fathered. And you can't say well if we had'built up and had 75 houses · that we could have put more boats down. That doesn't make sense at Plann Decem Ivan curre inter this owner Erhar' We're Ivan prima ordin Kraus infor that accur under Maybe incre ng Commission Meeting ,er 4, 1991 - Page 42 Inderdahl: The current ordinance, in our particular subdivision, the t ordinance limits us to 2 I guess as we understand it, or staff's retation. However any private property owner is entitled to 3. So s unfair right off the bat. In addition to that, all of our property have the boating/docking rights'in their covenants and restrictions. : Okay we're not here tonight to talk about the beachlot ordinance. here to talk about. nderdahl: ...the application for this use Permit or whatever was ily then going to be based upon what existed at the time the nce went into effect. : I think it's going to be based on probably 3 things. 'The ation that we have, which is all that we have right-now. Information .he beachlot owners can provide to us, which we may decide is more ~te. And in some cases, I'm not sure but we may have a beachlot that the current ordinance is entitled to more than was there in 1980. it's got enough space and met the requirements, then they could be ~sed that way. m Batzl~: So in other words they may be grandfathered in but if the ordin~rice allowed them more, you'd ignore the grandfathering. Is that what you said? : I think that that's fair. Er we ' : Maybe what we need here is a good, well written intent statement we really take this to the next level because I think that's what that's the issue we're dealing with. What are we intending to do Bern that what KT to it's Schneider: I have a question.' In establishing the number of boats will be allowed at a recreational beachlot, once the ordinance is , who makes that decision? Is that up to the plannin~ Commission or will listen to our pleas? : It will ultimately be the City Council. We'll make recommendation Planning Commission and they'll recommend to the City Council and City Council's call. Bet' Schneider: So the City Council will take each request separately? Kr : Right, Bern! Schneider: ...reasonable? Not necessarily what's grandfathered in. Kr : Well again, I mean I can't prejudice them doing that. I think the Comm! 'oner's statement about a...is a real vaIid one. I can teII you how I thi k the process is going to go and I see there being some room to di some of these things. But I guess the mere fact that there's more now than there was before, that does not persuade me. When something is andfatbered in, it's locked in at that point in time. The uncertainty for s is we're not really certain in all these cases what exactly all that Plant Decen was . and ~, trip] woulc down Bill estat fort~ enou~ boat'. deve Asso. year.~ this they Krau~ Olse~ Mart] Erha~ Olsel Erha~ toget Aane asso, prOC( Erhal alre~ Aanel Mark that that just numb, how ordi let ' the that city So e And meet hous, lng Commission Meeting bet 4, 1991 - Page 43 We have some information. We're willing to accept your information e want to figure out what it was. It doesn't entitle you to double or e in size· Now if, again if your beachlot under the current ordinance be entitled to more anyway, we're not going to artificially hold it Finlayson: There's so many hypotheticals here. If the beachlot.was lished in 1982 and they were gathering funds to buy a dock and so and there were no boats down there and then the beach association got h money together to install a dock and then they installed x amount of , if you go back to 1982, iq doesn't make any sense. Obviously they oped the property over a number of years. I know at Minnewashta Beach iation we've been developing that piece of property for a number of · There are many improvements made over the years. Who inventoried thing? Who did this investigation of the 13 associations as to what were back in 19827 $omebodw's been researching this? s: Yeah. Jo Ann, do you want to give a little bit of the history? : I'm not sure who did it in 1982. One of the other planners. Scott n..but the planning department had done a survey. t: This is something we're doing now or you say you found. : ...we found. t: Okay and you found some old surveys and you're pulling those her , okay. son: We compiled them together. We met with the homeowners iations and presented that information to them and explained the ss. We met with each association and explained the process so. t: You met with every homeowners association about this ordinance idy? ~son: Yes. Rogers: It was passed out right about at that time and ~e were.told the chance for comments and so forth was here for changes'and I guess s why I'm here· I'm surprised there aren't more like me. I guess I want to summarize my concern with this paragraph A. Setting the ,r and all this kind of stuff is if it's, this is really the crux of ~ard we're either going to fight or support this amendment, or this lance because if it looks like we're going to be cut back to 1982 and face it. Chanhassen is certainly not the city it was in 1982. All usiness developments that you've seen and other housing developments you talk about. I mean to go back to 1982 just can't happen on the as a whole. That's a big part of my concern in looking at this issue. iough said about that. I think that's the big sticking point for us. .o clarify one other thing, I think remember Richard Wing at this same ng saying that an individual homeowner could have 5 boats at his , not 3. Plan ng Commission Meeting 4, 1991 - Page 44 Ivan nderdahl: ...someone else at that meeting said the same thing. on the committee there... Mark ers: I don't think anybody from the Planning Commission was here. O1se The DNR regulates that. Mar k cons Ivan .ers: Yeah, and so. that would certainly be something to be 'ed. lerdahl: But I thought the City did that in it's own ordinance... Co : We limit it to 3. Ivan derdahl: Minnetonka I believe limits it to 5. Mark lets: I think Wing said it was 5.. Well. Er : We're getting off into the beachlot again. Mark lets: Okay, and point 2 is something that you brought up Ladd about this is permanent. This is a one time deal. : To establish what was grandfathered. Mark ers: Okay. I wanted to ask. Co ever' was :Just two real clear things. There is a beachlot ordinance that should have to live under because it's there and a lot of time nt developing that ordinance. Mark ers: Well that's not my question though. Co : But it is there and so the point of this process that we're look ng at right now is to make sure that if something exceeded that beca, it occurred, there should be fairness to allow that use that prior to 1982 if it makes sense. And that's the process right now that I think staff's trying to undertake. Mark that lets: But the ordinance did not pertain to the non-conforming uses in effect at that time. Conr : Right. Batz i: But the fact that the ordinance was passed means that all you're lega ly entitled to is the use that you had on the lot in 1982. And if you expa it, that doesn't mean that you're legally entitled to it at this poin . Mark Rogers: Well I'll tell you, if that's what's going to go into the ordi nce, that you're going to ~ry and strictly stick to the 1981 survey, I th nk you're going to have a big fight trying to pass this ordinance. Well I guess that's all I can say. Plant Decen COnT& to te been prett not Mark aCCOT the have Conr~ Mark diff~ Batz that Mark more in 1 into Cony thin Mark a go( supp( the this mad. Erha) Aanel Cony Mark prob with Or S~ diff Erha' mean to bl Is t our ing Commission Meeting bey 4, 1991 - Page 45 d: Give us some examples of what would be a problem. I'm not aware II you the truth that there are major. Obviously some, there have some problems with certain beachlots. With most of them are run ~ well but there's something that you don't feel that you'have-that's Dceptable that has happened since 19827 Rogers: According to this survey, which lists 1981, not 1982. We had ding to this survey, we had 4 boats with room for 6 docked. In 1991 urvey said we had 17, I believe that's an error but the number should been at most 16. d: 167 Rogers: Boats docked. Room for 16. As you can see, there's a wide 'ence between 4, room for 6 and 16. : $o do you think that there was room for 16 back in 1981 or 1982 or s been the expansion of your beachlot since then? Rogers: I was not there in those years. I believe that is probably than what we have now. 16 boats is probably more than there was there 82. I did not personally get a boat until 1989. And I first moved the neighborhood in 1986. d: Well yeah, in that situation there's going to be some problems. I that's the point of the process. Rogers: That's what makes us nervous because if we say yeah, this is d amendment and we get into, or good ordinance and we get into rting it and the Council passes it and then I come back in front of ouncil and now we sit down and talk about the numbers, I'm getting distinct feeling from you anyway that we're going to walk away very t: Let me say, I don't think this ordinance, was one of the driving ns to create this ordinance because we're having a problem? son: Yes. d: Very definitely. Rogers: The planning staff at that time indicated there had been some ems in our own at the meeting. In our own case they said it was not our association but with, I don't know if it was Minnewashta Heights mewhere on the north shore of the lake that there had b~en some culties. But what essentially would wind up. - t: I think is it fair to say that if. you're not causing problems, I ,e're not going to try to, I guess are you saying is the-Council going reasonable? I guess I expect that they're going to be reasonable. ~ intent to make all non-conforming grandfathered beachlots conform to ew ordinance? That's not. the intent is it? Planing Commission Meeting December 4, 1991 - Page 46 Aanen grand Erbar Batzl grand Aanel~ has ~ Batzl was Q KTaus Their guess endeC diffi granc be re inter nOT ¢ mean the C Bern~ in 1~ notif numbE was T KTaUS Con~ feet boat.~ I th have now. Bern they stat, That over righl were high~ diffE lake.~ how gran, son: No. The intent is to establish a baseline...of what they were Fathered in with. -: Establish a baseline so I don't think. : Yeah but that last part of your sentence, what they were · · 'athered in with and in this case that's a problem. ~on: A few of them have that problem. It expanded. The subdivision own. : But the City Council, their intent was to actually go back to what 'andfathered in? : Well no, and I think you're hitting on the crux of the issue here. intent was to establish a means of regulating these things. I my own personal interpretation of it is somewhat more of an open negotiation. I find it tough to believe that. it's going to be ~ult to 3ustify tripling in size of something beyond what was :athered but there may be some sort of a middle ground that's found to ~sonable. There is not an intent section here. You didn't 'discuss t when we brought this to you in terms of how that process would begin id the City Council. It may be a useful question to ask yourselves. I what would your intent be and possibly we can ask the same question of ity Council. s Schneider: I'd like to ask a question. When the survey was taken 92, if that's when they were taken, were the homeowners associations ied'that the survey was going to be taken and that would determine the r of boats that would be allowed in the future? If the association ct notified. s: We have no way of knowing. This is 10 years ago.- d: Again, the point is a beachlot can only take so much traffic.. 100 can only have so many boats on it. Maybe that's the same amount of that a neighbor has or whatever but there's an ordinance out there. nk the intent of this process is to make sure that all the beachlots some kind of guideline that's reasonable. And that's the point right 9 Schneider: In 1975 when the City Council approved our subdivision, also approved the Declarations of Covenants and Conditions which d that every property owner had the right to moor a boat at the dock. s right in the Covenants. We had a lawsuit going back 10 years ago a second, third and fourth addition expected to get the la'keshore s and they were denied that in Court. Because of the. fact that they denied the lakeshore rights and the boat docking privitedges, the st property owner was awarded $15,000.00 in damages for... There were rent property owners that were paid off because they lost their acre rights. Now if the City Council authorized this back in 1975, Ln the City Council in 1991 take away the rights that Were :athered into us? Everybody says the grandfathering only applies to Plann.ng Commission Meeting Decem )er 4, i991 - Page 47 the t ~o boats that were there back in 1982. That should have no bearing on this. Conra : Well legally there may be a case. Berni Schneider: I kind of think so because. Erbar : I don't think that's what I heard. I didn't hear that we're tryin to grandfather in what was there in 1982. I think we're trying to deter ine what the intent, what the deal was when it was put in. If the deal as that 15 homes each get a boat, then that may be what has to be dea with. Ivan a derdahl: That was the point I was trying to make but I think the think came...what was grandfathered is what you'll be going by. Conr : But we probably won't find out what was really intended. Ivan erdahl: This problem perhaps originated with our homeowners ations because one of the members also owns that adjoining property and ,r some reason he became upset that there were 4 boats at the dock alt h there were no problems in having 4 boats at this dock. But he init ted a lawsuit. Co : I don't think you're the only one. There are others. Ivan nderdahl: He's tried to prevent us or get an injunction from having any ts docking there at all. Well that's what's going on .... he's been ing the city now to enforce this grandfathered ordinance which would limi the number of boats. Er : Well I think the comments are appreciated. I think we're starting to a handle on the complexity of the issue here. So Mark, do you have any er comments? Mark ~ers: Yeah. Just one other one is again, I was starting to get at the, f we were to go through this process and get the permit. There 't seem to be any mechanism for amending or chenging this permit it be required for whatever reason. I don't know if that's intended or ,ered under something else but realistically it would seem that that shou be allowed for. And the last thing was should we get this permit, woul, we need any other permits in the future? I mean does the permit toilets, picnic tables, whatever so that we' would not need any other cond ional use permits or I don't know, what else there might be in the futu' short of reasonable beachlot kinds of things. Olse : ..conditional use permit. Mark ers: For? Jo A n Olsen's comment could not be heard'on tape. Mark ~ers: Okay, that wasn't clear from our first meeting because if it was isted on the survey and so forth. Plann;ng Commission Meeting Decem)er 4, 1991 - Page 48 Olsen ...I thought you were asking. Mark ',ogers: I guess I'm asking because other beachlots have to have a conditional use permit for toilets, T think you're saying so, would that be another permit that we would have to then go get? Kraus : You've got an existing one now? Mark ogees: Yes we do. Kr : That would be in the package of, assuming it's approved, that you be in the package approved under .this one permit application. You woul 't have to come in twice for the same thing. Batzl : But if they didn't have the toilet, it was grandfathered in, they may .ye to apply for it under the new ordinance and maybe that would be under an amendment section is what he's talking about. Mark lets: Okay. I guess that was about it. Er : Okay thanks Mark. Is there anything else we haven't covered? Bern if be Cou Schneider: Just on procedure now. This is going to be submitted, Planning Commission here approves this resolution tonight, it will itted to the City Council and then the City Council, will the City hold a public hearing on this.also? Or is it all... Kra : Well the official public hearing, the one that's mandated by law is Ld at the Planning Commission but every City Council meeting is wide open .nd the Mayor always asks if anybody has anything to say. So if they do it tonight, there will be more opportunity to speak at'the Council. Bet Schneider: So this is the final meeting as far as the Planning ce ~n? KT the : Well I don't know. They may continue this or ask for' changes to dinance and not approve it tonight. That's their call. Ivan what dahl: We just happened to see it in the paper but I don't know on the letter. Er : Kathy, did you meet with their homeowners association? Okay, and were at that meeting? Ivan nderdahl: Well that was a long time ago. : How long ago was it? Ivan nderdahl: I don't know how long ago it was. Olse : We did send out letters to all the homeowners. Mark ers: About this meeting tonight? Planning Commission Meeting December 4, 1991 - Page 49 Aanen ( Ther eveni Olsen Erhar Olsen Ivan oppor Conra toni~ have quest But t indi~ want~ your thin~ our ¥ Bill a TUll :on: The president. was talking back and forth about the notification letter of this g's meeting.) I don't know with the storm and stuff, the mail might have. : Well when was it mailed out Jo Ann? Beginning of last week. But with the holidays... Jnderdahl: I was wondering, when does an association get the ~unity to plead it's case. ~: You would come in front of this group first to plead the case. $o 3t we're just saying, tonight we're making a decision maybe, should we ~ permit process. That's really what we're doing and then some of the ions are, well how do we notify those groups of when that takes place. 3night is just should we do it. Then we have the next step where idual, where it would be up to you when your homeowners association to come in and see us. You'd have one year to do it. Then.you plead ~ase and if you can say based on legal conditions that we've had we grandfathered 4 boats or whatever, then we listen to that and make ~commendation to the City Council. ~inlayson: I don't 'know what number you're going to give me. I heard or of about 14 boats on Minnewashta Heights Beach Association. Now whatIn umber are we talking about so we know whether we have to plead a case at all? Because I know that I mean I can pretty much establish boats and /can go back to maybe... ( The~ Olse lega get Bill cost Olse~ a fee Bill Olse~ Bill Olse Erha' comi not, e was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) : ...conditional use permit for your recreational beachlot so you're non-conforming. You're automatically in the process. You'd have to he permit. Finlayson: Now is the permit a one time thing forever?- Is there a involved in this permit? That's something that we haven't established yet but there would be . Finlayson: A dollar? : I think we were discussing $75.00. Finlayson: $75.00? Forever right? : Right. That is established by the City Council. t: Okay, anything else and again I think we all really appreciate you g. I think we got a good feel for what the issues are here. If I'd entertain a motion to close the public hearing. Pkann ,rig Commission Meeting Deceml)er 4, 1991 - Page $0 Batzl moved, Conrad seconded to close the public hearing. Al! voted tn favor md the motion carried, The public hearing Nas closed. Erhar : Why don't we just have an open discussion on thls. Go ahead. Ahren, : I think there needs to be an intent statement £n here because there s obviously a lot of questions people have concerning why we're doing this. [ think that the ordinance should address any changes people may have ,n the future concerning. I don't know what it is. Maybe reapply for another permit is it. But that needs to be clear in here. Nho.'s the Zonin Administrator? Is that you Paul? Kraus : Yeah. Ahre : Is that really a title you have or is that just something you- assum ? K As : Actually it was officially transferred' It used to be Don th and he didn't know it. Or I guess he forgot. Ahr : Does this make any sense to have that in there? Batzl : I think it's a term that's defined in our Zoning Ordinance. Er : Yeah, we've used it quite frequently. Ahr d : Okay. I don't have any more comments. I think this has been, :sion has been pretty adequate. Batz : $o you'd want to table it and draft a new? Ahre : Yes. : Jeff, do you have a comment? F es: I would agree to table this. Get an intent statement. It seems like here's some confusion out there coupled with the fact that a lot of currently didn't get a notice on it. Er : Ladd. Conr : I don't know, obviously there's confusion. So I think the work, I don' know that the work has to be done in this document. Putting the i there is fine I guess. I think the real key is to make sure that the ;ociations who have to go through this process understand what's goi on and typically the intent, 10 words or 10 sentences may not do it in ng like this. I think reference by the people who are here toni , it has to be real clear what the process is and even some of the gu ines. I think realistically when you come back in, I hold the nt ordinance to be something that we really do guide development by. The 'ent ordinance makes a lot of sense so I would be dishonest if I said hat that wasn't a guidelines that we're going to use as we review thin~ but I think again as we talk to the homeowners, I think the asso, iations, there has to be some, and I can't, I don't know' what's gone Planing Commission Meeting Dece~er 4, 1991 - Page 51 on wi clear have whole here. what proce Erhar homeo Aanen i nve n Erhar purpo Aanen kind Erhar prese cou 1 c Conra Olser Batzl Bill Olser Aaner Bill yOU'T Olser Erhar AaneT couIc ConT~ ErhaT Conra is h~ that happe :h staff. They've met with everybody but I think it's got to be real what those homeowners associations, what the process is and what they o do and what the City's posture, what the City's role is i.n this thing. And I don't know that that gets done in an intent statement It may be a letter that says Dear Homeowners Association. Here's e're doing and if you want to send somebody else in and review the ss with us to get a better under-standing, you should do that. ': Okay was there something handed out at the meetings of the ~ners associations? son: A copy 'of this ordinance and then we gave them a copy of the :ory. Mark has a copy. ': Okay so there wasn't any intent or general description of the Ge or anything at that? Don: Yeah, we stood up and gave a presentation. Then somewhat we )f broke and met with them individually to answer specific questions. ~: Yeah but it wasn't written, was it written out? Your ltation, is it written out? $o some of this might be around that we use. : So how many showed up for that? Most? Quite a few but... : So that may be why some of them aren't here tonight. :inlayson: When was that meeting held? October? ;on: Yeah, I think that's when it was- -'inlayson: There was one before this I know. I's that the meeting s talking about? Yeah, 4:30. : Here? son: I think we set up like 4:30 to 6:00 because we figure people trickle in and we could' meet with them one on one. can see how this is confusing to some folks. t: Okay, Brian did you have anything else? d: Yeah, I'm pretty much done but again that's the intent statement re but I think it's the process that we have to follow.. Even some ire here right now are still a little bit concerned what's going to and how it works. I think that's really communication. Planning Commission Meeting Deceml,er 4, 1991 - Page 52 Batzl. : I like the idea of an intent statement I think. And potentially addin! at least a sentence regarding amendment. That if they want to amend it, ti en they go through the process again or something. Reapply for anoth,,r one. Because that may, you may want to handle, it seems to me that in, i' they want to expand for example by adding a toilet, it's not clear to me whether they would go through this process again or whether they would go through our normal beachlot stuff about adding a toilet On a beach.ct. Aanen~on: Or go through the variance procedur'e, expansion of a non-c, nforming. Kraus :: At that point it's not a non-conforming use anymore. It's a permi .ted use so. The only options we would have is either come back throu ih or establish a separate amendment procedure. Batzl : Yeah, but handle that so it's clear what they're going to do. And I had a question about enforcement of this. On a conditional use permit, a heari ,g is held before us and then it goes to City Council or what hav~ you. How do you envision if a problem arises under their permit, how would it be handled? : It's' the same as a conditional use permit. We inspect them an ly. If we find a violation, we wri-te to them about that. If they're in vi .lation of their permit and we can't achieve some accommodation, we take t before the City Council and ask them to consider revocation. : How would you revoke a permit? ~on: Do you think we should put Something into that? Batz : I don't know. I'd like you to at least look at that and see how you ,uld have to enforce this. Aane ~on: A violation section? Batz : A violation section. Or if you're going to do it according to the' cond ional use permit, you can maybe again add a sentence. Co a a got : You know just the bottom line of this thing is real threatening to ,nets association. We've got to be real sensitive to that. There's lng that we're taking away rights and on some basis we may but we've be real sensitive to the 'fact that what this'is doing and it makes nervous. Er viol Or sort : Okay, what are we talking? Are we talking an intent statement, a on. Are we talking about putting that into the ordinance itself? we talking about when we hand this something out to. people that it sells. Aane n: Put it right in the ordinance. Bill inlayson: I think the Minnewashta Beach Association can argue numb, 's but we'd like to have something to argue with. Plann Decem) Erhar' Bill want Conra I'm s Commission Meeting 4, 1991 - Page 53 : What the basis, okay and that's what we're trying. inlayson: We want to be able to, we have documentation you know. -We .hat reviewed obviously. : But I guess I'm still looking, I'm going to plead my case here. ill looking for some kind of document that'says Chanhassen is trying to ge~ a handle on beachlots period. We have an ordinance that regulates most f them and some of them the ordinance didn't apply to and right now we're trying to update what those beachlots can do. Here's the process that ~e have to follow and maybe you did that in person so excuse me for when am naive about what's happened but here's what it appears that your legal for at this point in time and here's the process to bring it in front of th Planning Commission to get a permit, i'm looking for that kind of a play cript type of communication to let 'people know. Erhar : I'm not, while I think we should put an intent and perhaps viola ions in the ordinance I still, I think we need an additional document that ,ets handed out. Mailed out when you mail out the ordinance or perha is mailed out with the public, next if we table this. Mail out that describes how we're going to, what is the method for determining what is granc~athered or the preferred method. What are the guidelines going to be? Kraus this if th infor was C resul Erhar some Aaner befo~ befo~ Erha~ there summa inte othe' Batz memb, home¢ alom Erha~ that what s: Well, I think we can indicate something along those lines but if ~ets into the sphere or trying to negotiate an equitable settlement, ~t's what it is based upon information that we had. Based upon ~ation that they had. Based upon some legal-documentation about what )mmitted, I don't think we can tell you ahead of time what the ['s going to be. L: No, I 'm not trying to do that. I'm just saying, as Ladd said, ;omfort as to we're not trying to take things away from people. :on: That's why we tried to have the informal meeting ahead of time s this. We thought we had tried to mitigate all those questions s they came in but obviously we didn't do a good enough job. t: Well I don't know. It could be you did a great job and that's why 's only 4 people here. It's hard to determine but I think if I can rize, I think what we're saying here is, I think we should add an t statement. Something with violations and amendments. I guess the issue Mark had was on notification. You may want to look at that. i: Clearly you at least want to mail the revised copy to these five rs in addition to the homeowners presidents because it sounds like the wners presidents didn't receive the notice or they didn't pass it t: I think my experience in tryin~ to deal with the homeowners is they don't communicate very well among themselves. Mailing to one is, have you got, 177 Chances are 2 of those are going to be on vacation Planning Commission Meeting December 4, 1991 - Page 54 or just for a week, particularly at Thanksgiving. You're going to, it's going to work with a weeks notice. Mark ers: I agree with that. Especially with something like this. You know 'e's a case where...believe that they have a legal right to have a boat nd there are people within my association who...that same sort of thin~ and if they perceive that I somehow was negligent in informing them of s process, I don't want to get involved with that. I want to do the best can to represent the association but they need their own res ,sibilty. Kr : Well we were talking about. We thought we would write a letter to the ~meowners presidents to give us a mailing list of who's in their OhS. We have no idea of who they sold rights to. There's just no .ati r ~ed documentation that we have. 8111 ayson: We pretty much regulate ourselves. We have a certain of spaces available and we stick within those guidelines. We've had a waiting list. For the first time next year we're going to have a wa lng list of one. It's the only.time this has ever happened and that 's certainly on a waiting list and he won't be able to' get in until else moves out. We've been regulating ourselves for some time. Erha : Okay, let's move along. Let's get a motion. Can we get a motion Conr : Before there's a motion, is there any other comments about what star had down here? Any changes to what they had' so they don't Come back with ~ething that we want to change or are those words okay? I'm table with what's down here. : I actually, in reading this where it says the permit shall be i following receipt of satisfactory proof, that actually doesn't real need to be in there because it should be down in the hearing · I personally didn't understand that whole sentence. Why it was whet it was. It's not going to be issued following satisfactory proof. It's icing to be issued following the hearing and the City Council review on something else which is what we've been talking about tonight. It's going to be issued following them coming in with a bunch of ts. Setting it down on Paul's desk and he goes here's your permit. : Kathy? Anything else? Is there a motion? Co inte : I move that we table action on this item until staff drafts an statement and a violation fee? Olse : A violation section. Conr, : A violation section. AaneT : And amendments. Er : And something to do with amendments, Yeah. I think it's clear to star what our intent here is. Is there a second? Plann.ng Commission Nesting Decem>eT 4, 1~1 - Page 55 Batzl : Second. moved, Batzli seconded to table the Zoning Ordinance Amendment to requi 'e interim use permits for recr®ational beachlots until staff can come back a draft of an intent statement, violation section and a section regar ng. amendments. Ail voted in favor of tabling and the motion carri . ORDINANCE AMENDMENT CONCERNIN~ BUS SHE[.TERS AND PARK RIDE pOTS. 3o An Olsen presented the staff report on this item. Erbar : Okay, is there any reason to open a public hearing on-this? Okay. Any .mments from the commissioners? Conr : The only thing that I didn't see in there was anything about 1 'ng so I might assume that the landscaping of the section, what 1 ~ing will apply to this? Jo Ann. O1 The landscape ordinance for site plans. . : Is 'it mandated that this get site plan approval? ...conditional use permit which... : Nell if we add to the ordinance just a one sentence line that says it's lso required to get site plan approval, have the full landscaping requ 'ements. Conr : My only point is, what we're doing is creating a giant parking lot and anybody cares about how we screen a giant parking lot. If we're all table that the landscaping ordinance does that, which it probably does Er : Are you comfortable with the landscaping ordinance that applies to this king lot? O1 : Yeah, it's... : It probably makes sense. : Keep in mind we're the bus company too. Er : That's what scares us. Conr : Yeah, Paul that's not the right thing to say. Erha : Are you satisfied Ladd? Conr d: Yeah, I think the ordinance, as long as the ordinance applies to this then we're okay. Erha~t: Okay anything else? Planning Commission Meeting Decen~eT 4, 1991 - Page 56 / Batz, i: Yeah. I thought we were going to, I thought the farmers market thin~,~Was going to be tied in with the other stuff we were doing on the. tam ary uses or whatever. Kr : There is going to be, right. Kate's working on that right now. T is a separate section. We just happen to feel'that a park and ride lot i an ideal place for this to go-and when you're talking about a speci c ordinanc~ dealing with park and ride lots, we might as.well menti it there too. : Okay so we're just mentioning that it maY, the conditional use ' per may allow it but we're going to cover it somewhere else what the cond ohs are for that farmers market or in our temporary use, whatever we'r going to call it. Our new section is called. a use Yeah. If somebody wanted to come in after the fact and establish market at this park and ride, we'd run it through the conditional it procedure and permit it that way. Batz : But that's where the conditions are going to be for the farmers mar . What the temporary use stuff that's Kate working on now. : Right. Batz : Let me ask a really dumb question. I'll-probably be thrown right out window. Why can't the structure contain advertising signage? O1 That's more...we wanted to keep it clean... : But I mean every other bus shelter you see in the whole entire worl has advertising signage in it. It's just. a philosophical thing. : No, and every other bus s6elter we see doesn't cost $10,000.00 or $12, )0.00 to build. They're l'ittle plexiglass boxes. Ahr : The new ones on the Nicollet Mall don't have any place for 'sing. wi : They don't? So Nicollet Mall and Chanhassen are going to be advertising, signs. Ahr : Setting the pace for the future. Er : What about, should we put a place in there to put like notices thou A bulletin board. Ahr : Like a bus schedule. Er : Yeah, bus schedule. Batz i: Or a copy of the little Chanhassen newsletter that comes out. Krau: : See the only reasons these things have advertising in them is as things are bus benches, bus shelters are erected by advertising Planning Commission Meeting December 4, 1991 - Page 57 com les. The City gets it for free· Well I think Southwest Metro has gone much classier route· The bus shelters are distinctive· They're archi ecturally designed. They don't have advertising. Batzl : And we have to pay for them. Why don't we let some advertiser put them n for us? Ahr : What do you want to advertise in them? : I don't know. I mean every other park bench you see has got some real guy on there. I don't know. Why are we paying for them? I mean we'r trying to keep down taxes and here we're building monuments for a park nd ride lot. Who cares? For a park and ride lot? 'Do you care if it's monument or a little plexiglass thing that advertises in there? Co : Well there's a good case to be made for a key,st. A well designed ke' that has, you know we're not talking about grandiose advertising but you ld sell it and it'd be relatively easy to sell advertising space and it ld be a public service. So I thought about'that. It's not a big deal me but I think city businesses, boy if they wanted to reach a publ , boy what a great place to. do it and you can do it real easily. Er : Who's going to own this? KT Er Co Southwest Metro. : Okay, so if there was advertising, they'd collect it. They'd have to sell it too. 'They'd have to sell the space and that sort of a pain. If they're not set up to do it then, does Southwest Metr~ sell anything in their buses? Do they have a system? I don't know. I know I haven't seen it on the outside of their · Batz i: They don't have the little cards up? Krau : I've never ridden one of their buses· I don't know. Batz!i: I haven't either. Erhalt: We just hired a girl from Romania that's here on political assylum and he showed up for the interview. In the interview she said that she does~not own a car and can't drive· I said, how'd you get here? She says I toSk a bus and I says you can get here on a bus? KTaU~, this Conr4 us a Batz We 'r, s: We've got an Iraqee in our Planning DePartment who did the same · She's since learned to drive... d: I think we should leave the advertising out until somebody gives decent proposal. We can always change the ordinance. i: Given the perpensity to graffiti and everything else. I mean if going to build a $12,000.00 thing that's going to be graffitied up Plann.ng Commission Meeting Decem)er 4, 199~ - Page 58 because Graffiti Bridge is gone now and all this pent up need to graffiti, I'm s,unned. I never heard that we were going t.o do that. Ahren : Pent up need to graffiti? Batzl : Yeah. I guess I read the little Chanhassen Villager that we're goi to balance the budget and come hell' or high water we're going to run a deficit and we're 9oing to do this and we're going to do that. Now we're build ng $12,000.00 monuments and no advertising. It's stunning. Erhar : It's not us. Batzl : Well it's not city money but who supports Southwest Metro? Conr : We have a transit fee that we pay. Batzl : Yeah. So we support it. I don't know why we're trying to the 1 in non-advertising on buses. That's my only point and why we need to ld park and ride lots that are, I don't know. Ahr : Most people wait in their cars anyway. Conr : Geez, if you've ever waited for a bus .you're dying. ET an : That's the only one I'm familiar with. : Okay, where do we want to go with the advertising? Have we found to attach to Brian's ideas on the advertising? Okay. Good try. Batz : I'll save a copy of the Minutes for posterity. Erha' : Anything else on this? Ladd, you're cooking. Conr : I was just trying to think if somebody came in with a good for advertising what we'd do. Erha~ Conr Ahre KTau.~ Ahre; Krau,~ ibut here Road TH 2 Ahre : We're talking about one of these right? Yeah. We have one keyast we're talking about? Well ultimately two or three. One park and ride lot? That's it? Well ultimately there's going to be two or three or maybe a fourth hat's, I mean sites that they've located including the one we have in in town now, that one may move out to the corner of TH 5 and Dell Another site's over at TH 5 and TH 41. Another site is down on 2 and TH 101, the new interchange. s: These are potential sites? Planing Commission Meeting Decen~er 4, 1991 - Page 59 Kraus Ahre~ Proce Batz! than Ahre~ Conra Ann? ridir It's Olser ConT~. Erha~ The F Eithe Batz] Ahrer Conra Erha¥ up? somet ConT& Batz bull. or C¢ Conr Batz Erha~ the that stufl Batz2 keepJ Erhal Yes. s: It wouldn't be a big money maker now anyway? Not like the permit ss we talked about earlier. : 13 times $75.00 is a big money maker? We're going to-spend more ,hat on the lights burning in here for just the hearings alone. know. Especially this one. d: But don't we want to have a place for public notices Paul or Jo Now here you've got a captive audience. I don't know how many are ~ the bus. 50 to 100. Wouldn't you want to have a place for public? just one more way of communicating to the citizens of Chanhassen. ...were thinking more of paid advertising... : Here's a case where we could require some kind of bulletin. I was thinking public yeah. Provide a place to put city notices. eople who are going to use this bus live and work in Chanhassen. live or work here. It's a beck of a good way. i: Put copies of our Minutes. s: That will put them to sleep. d: I guess I'd like to see that. t: Just like a cork bulletin board someone could put something' else It's not one that they have to go to the City and get a key or lng. Then they're going to have to hire someone to manage that.. d: That cork is tacky. i: Have you seen the one at 7 Hi. .They used to have a community tin board. I'm sure it's not there anymore because was in the Red Owl untry Store, whatever it was. It was just tacky. It was bad. d: Did you ever sell anything there? i: No. I did look at it occasionally. t: They've got one up at the shopping center on TH 4 and TH 5,' inside hopping center that's a publid community bulletin board and I thought one was. you-know people put their little want ads and signs and i: Well I'm sure if you've got somebody going over there and kind of ng all that straight. t: That's probably why it looks good. Conr d: But we don't want the for sale, dog for sale stuff. Plann,ng Commission Meeting Decem)er 4, 1991 - Page 60 Ahren : Give the public what they want. That's what I always look at. Conra : But you know it's an opportunity for us to post official hts. How many people ride the bus a day out of here? 50 to 1007 Somet lng like that. Erbar : Are you talking about this would be just for the City's use? co' : Yeah, primarily. Batz : 30 Ann's going to have to drive out there every Tuesday and change it. can see it now. Er : If we wanted to do that we could always change the ordinance at that ime also and allow us to do that. Co : But if you want to force the Transit Commission to put this in, now' the time to do it. Are they going to put it in anyway? Aren't they goi to put a schedule up? Olse .. ...the intent... Conr, : We're not prohibiting it but how about requiring it. If we want it, should have it in the ordinance right now. If we don't want it, and' it's ime to go home, we'll close the subject. Erha~ : Anybody from staff want it then? Ahre : Want what in? Erha' t: We're talking about requiring them to put in the glass-door with the ulletin board behind it where the city can put notices. Batz i: If this is just a proposed condition, why. don't we say we might at our ion require something like that. Then we can talk about it when the time really comes. Conr, d: You're just getting out of the deal. We either want it or we don' . Batz Conr, they it's see Batz Olse Batz i: Well it depends. d: Yeah, it depends. We ask the City Council to make a decision. Do want another place to post city. There's some cost behind it. Maybe not worthwhile, I don't know but this is the last time we're going to ,his thing. i: Who's the Southwest Metro Representative? Who? : From here? i: From here. Krau Ds: It's up for reappointment. Do you want to be it? Plann,ng Commission Meeting Decem ~er 4, 1991 - Page 61 Olsen It's three cities...Chanhassen, Chaska and Eden Prairie. Batzl : I think you need somebody that actually rides the bus that has an inter ,st. Far ~es: There are 800 people waiting there.. Ahr : I don't think it's worth spending 45 minutes... Erhar : Yeah, what do you want to do? In or out? O1 You can just take out... ,: e~ do i Ahr No, leave it in there. Tell the Council if they want it, they can I agree. Er : Okay, someone make a motion. Conr : Okay, I would move, what are we moving? Er : We're moving to recommend the adoption of the ordinance right? Cent : Yeah, the ordinance. Are we just park and ride lots or are we tal about bus shelters and bus benches too? Okay, I would recommend appr of the amendment to Section 20-266, Sectfon 20-294 as staff report and Section 20-294 as the staff report states with the addition of poi number 9 which includes site plan review and, huh. Just with point 9 which is site plan review and a recommendation to the City Council that review the option of requiring community bulletin board that coul be included in the park and ride lot. Erha : Okay, is there a second? Conl : That's not part of it. That's just a recommendation to the City Cou il to review that subject. I didn't put it in as one of our ndations. Batz i: Second. Erha t: You stated there was a section 9. Where? COnrl d: I added item number 9. Under .Section 20-294. Ahre Olse Ahre Batz that kind s: He's not in the ordinance. : He's on the part that I added. s: Page 2. i: Right. Well we have two sections 20-294. I didn't understand. but I assume that's going to be straighten out. $o if I would love to of friendly amend this that the staff figure out where to put the Plann Decem requi Erhar Conra ng Commission Meeting ,er 4, 1991 - Page 62 ement that there's a site plan review. : Okay, any other discussion or amendments? appro Uses, Stand Division 4 of the City Code including an item 9 under Section 20-294 which willie site plan review. All voted in favor and the motion carried. moved, Batzli seconded that the Planning Commission recommend ,al of the proposed conditions to be added to Article IV, Conditional Standards for Agricultural and Residential Districts, Division 3 and irds for Business, Office, Institutional and Industrial DistriCts, OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated ~er 6, 1991 were so noted. CITY INCIL UPDATE: Er : Questions on the City Council update? Batz : Have we heard anything on the Moon Valley stuff? : No. That was a grueling couple of days. Batz : Was it just last week? argu re poi pi they Tom them mi · re. take : Yeah. Judge Kanning, well he gave them 10 days to present, summary ts and then I suppose it's going to take another while to go and it. On the three points though, for whatever it's worth, on the as to establishing that they are not grandfathered-in on the northern , Judge Kanning seemed to indicate that he felt pretty strongly that 't have any rights to that piece at all. Roger thinks, Roger and )tt think we're in very strong legal ground on the question of , I mean the Judge has already decided we have a right to regulate The question of whether or not we have a right to restrict them from all the material, Roger feels we have a very strong case. As for my ion of their application, my guess is they're going to order us to and they may order them to provide information. It clearly came in the meeting that they have information that they've intentionally with Id. $o hopefully they'll be ordered to provide that stuff. We'll see 'obably in a couple of weeks. RI Er Carl iTE PLAN. : Okay, did you have something you wanted to talk about the Lowell site plan? Olse We just wanted to get your...would you accept... Er t: This is in a residential area? Olse~: It's zoned residential with there's residences on either side of Lowell... Erha~t: Okay, what are our alternatives to accepting that? We're requiring that the guy put all this in a building and we can't, there's no Plann. ng Commission Heeting Deceml er 4, 1991 - Page 63 way wl can. Olsen Inside... He's got a lot of stuff he can removed from the site. Erbar : Right. But we can't legally do that? Ne can either make him enclo e it and screen it or make him put it in a building. Olsen ...remove stuff that shouldn't be there... Erhar: Why wouIdn't we do that? OIsen ...but what he's proposed to us is a 12,000 squar'e foot... Erhar : That seems to me to permanentiZe the probIem doesn't it? Ahren : What wiII the neighbors think of a 12,000 square foot buiIding? OIsen ... Ahren : That's a big buiIding. Erhar : Isn't this the same buiIding he's been proposing for years and then ever does it anyway? BatzI : WeiI yeah but he was just going to put up some tin shed or a coupI of them. He wasn't going to put up a big one. Kr : He had bought the. oId Tonka Toy Company buiIding. O, I think he's stiII... ' Bi : Tonka Toy buiIding? Krau : Yeah, he had the Tonka Toy buiIding and he took it apart. Now he does t know how to put it back together again. It sat on the grass for 2 year Erha : But everytime we go out there he shows it to us and says here, I can this up. It seems to me this process is going to go on forever. It to me if we could get the guy to put some heavy landscaping around the lng and then keep the process going while he does that, we'd get more ished. Conr : Has anything ever happened with Lowell? Olse Well he has cleaned up the site. Conr : So the three things that were to be done by September 22nd, have they ~oeen done? Clean up all items listed by September 22nd. All vehicles, equipment on site must be licensed, operable? Olse : I don't know. Conr. d: I'll guarantee. Plann ng Commission Heeting Decem! er 4, 1991 - Page 64 He's got to do it or... Erhar : Okay, if we win the case outright, what happens? O1 won . Well this is part of the settlement. The case has actually bee~ Er : Okay, but what's the best that can happen for the City7 olse~: To get it screened... Erha~t: Okay and your term screening applies to... Olse' : The building and screening, Erha t: The building and screening. Farm .kcs: Is this how much building he would need to house what he's got ther now? Kr ts: I doubt it. I mean that's a building that's as large as that offJ :e building that you approved in the industrial park. Far : I was going to say...little oversized. : That's the size of the building he took down so that's what he to put up. Ii: 12,0007 Kralss: He never had it erected on his property. Far, ~akes: So that isn't grandfathered7 Olsiin: No. Kra ss: No, not at all. His use at some level is grandfathered. n: I just didn't want us to say no way. That's why I wanted to put it you. Co : 12,000 is absolutely not even, I couldn't even consider it' And to 11 you the truth, you were recommending 5,000. I don't know that we'd do hat for anybody else. That's still a decent sized building. That's a building and we're putting it in a residential neighborhood. I don't kn(w. I guess we should help. We've tried to help Lowell Carlson for 5 ye~irs or 10, whatever the number is and nothing happens and obviously he's Er t the case but geez, I just can't be real sensitive to putting up, ting him put up something that's kind of going to be an eyesore in the ghborhood. I don't know. ~art: What we're pushing for is what screening? Perimeter screening. Ah ens: Probably his entire property. I Planning Commission Meeting Decemler 4, 1991 - Page 65 Erhar' : ~nd how big is the lot? Conra, : Couldn't he berm that? He's in the business. He's got the equipl ent to do the berming. Batzl : He could pile all his junk up there and cover it up. Conra : So if we bermed his equipment so that the neighbors, would that be too b g a berm? Olsen Yeah, I mean... Col : And we can't build 10 feet berms? That's a lot of earth isn't it? 0 Yeah. And that would be pretty ugly. : Even Rick Murray couldn't do that. C( : Yeah, the trees will die. Olse : Okay, well we'll... Erha' : Do you have an answer from us? Okay, is there anything else? Bat2 i moved, Farmakes seconded to ad3ourn the meett'ng. All voted in favor and he motion carried. The meeting Nas ad3ourned at 10:45 p.m.. Subm tted by Paul Krauss Plan lng Director Prep; red by Nann Opheim