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PC 2008 10 07 CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 7, 2008 Acting Chair Larson called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Kathleen Thomas, Debbie Larson, Denny Laufenburger, Dan Keefe and Kevin Dillon MEMBERS ABSENT: Kurt Papke and Mark Undestad STAFF PRESENT: Sharmeen Al-Jaff, Senior Planner and Angie Auseth, Planner I PUBLIC HEARING: PETERS VARIANCE: REQUEST FOR VARIANCE FROM SHORELAND SETBACK TO EXPAND AN EXISTING LEGAL NON-CONFORMING DECK INTO A PORCH AND ADDING ANOTHER DECK ON PROPERTY ZONED RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY (RSF) AND LOCATED AT 7301 LAREDO DRIVE. APPLICANT: RICHARD AND EUNICE PETERS, PLANNING CASE 08-19. Public Present: Name Address Richard & Eunice Peters 7301 Laredo Drive Jerry Fox 7300 Laredo Drive Angie Auseth presented the staff report on this item. Laufenburger: I have one. You stated that you didn’t know when the patio was constructed, is that correct? Auseth: Yes. Laufenburger: I’ll ask that question of the applicant when they get it, but tell me this. Would the patio be subject to any restrictions or variance or anything? Auseth: The 75 foot setback is for any structure so we just started back in 2006 I believe to require a zoning permit for patios and other structures that don’t require a building permit so that we can catch these things before they happen. Laufenburger: Sure. So what you’re saying is if the patio was constructed prior to 2006, then it would not be subject to any variance? Auseth: We didn’t have a permitting process for it. It would still have to meet the setback. Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Laufenburger: Okay. Would it have to meet the setback after the fact even though it’s been in place for a period of 2 or 3 years? What would staff’s view on that be? Al-Jaff: They would, if it pre-dates the ordinance, if a structure existed prior to adoption of the ordinance, then it’s grandfathered in. It becomes legal non-conforming. Laufenburger: So non-conforming but they can continue to use it? Al-Jaff: Correct. Laufenburger: Okay. And you, do I understand this correctly too staff, that you said that the structure that they’re asking to build above that would not change the, what’s the term you used? The impervious coverage, is that correct? Auseth: Correct. Because the deck was constructed over a patio, so. Laufenburger: Actually has it been constructed already? Auseth: No. The existing deck, the 15 by 20 foot, there was a patio there prior to that deck being built. Laufenburger: Okay. Auseth: So those hard cover calculations are already included. Laufenburger: Okay. So whether there’s a deck over that portion or whether there’s an enclosed structure over the top of that, it wouldn’t change that. Auseth: Right. Laufenburger: I was referring to the patio which is the lower level patio. Auseth: Sure. Laufenburger: Could you go back to the property for a moment. This, I’m talking about the one around which the table and the deck chairs, it looks like outside the walkout. Auseth: Yes. Laufenburger: Okay. That’s the patio I’m referring to. Is that subject to ordinance at this time? Auseth: That’s the patio that we were saying we don’t know when that was installed. Laufenburger: And ordinances to cover that were in, were enacted in 2006? 2 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Auseth: There was a zoning permit enacted in 2006 which we use to catch these things before they happen without, if this was constructed prior to 2006, there was not a permitting process for it. Laufenburger: So it’s, they would be legal non-conforming. Al-Jaff: May I add one thing? Laufenburger: Please do. Al-Jaff: One of the things that we adopted, knowing that individuals want to overlook the lake. They want to construct a water oriented structure. And that was a request that we saw quite often. That’s when the ordinance was adopted and it was to limit the size of those structures to 250 square feet. Laufenburger: Say that number again. Al-Jaff: 250 square feet. Laufenburger: Okay. Al-Jaff: But that structure had to be detached. That was key. So you can say a boat house for instance along the lake, or. Laufenburger: A gazebo. Al-Jaff: A detached deck or a gazebo, and there is a height limitation and there are a few things that were required as well. Laufenburger: Okay. Al-Jaff: But the key was water oriented structure, detached from the rest of the house, not to exceed 250 square feet. Laufenburger: Okay. I’m going to ask you one last question. This is hypothetical but let’s assume that this patio did not exist today. Would the applicant have to file a permit to construct that patio? Al-Jaff: They would apply for a zoning permit. Laufenburger: Zoning permit. And would the zoning permit be granted based on the guidance that’s in place today? Auseth: The patio would have to meet the 75 foot shoreland setback. Laufenburger: Good. 3 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Dillon: So you’d be getting a variance for that one too. Al-Jaff: Correct. Dillon: Right. Laufenburger: Okay. Alrighty. That answers my question. Thank you very much. Thank you Chair. Larson: Kevin. Dillon: So these other variances that were requested, I guess there’s the 95-9. That’s an 8 foot shoreline so that’s kind of like in a similar boat. Pardon the expression. Auseth: Right. Dillon: The other ones were front and, oh the first one was a shoreline. Auseth: The first one was a shoreline. Dillon: Alright. So was 85 the year that it was granted? Auseth: Yes. Dillon: So these are old. Alright. You know I don’t have any more questions. Larson: Kathleen. Thomas: Yeah, I do have a question. So back in 1996 when they came in and they originally had gotten this variance for the deck that they have there now, if they had decided at that point and just made it instead of a deck, could they have made it into a 3 season porch at that point or is it, how, I was asking if it was just like a bad timing issue. You know like as if had they asked for it then, you know would it have been any different of any answer than it is today? Sorry, I just you know, I just wonder if it, if it was just a bad you know, because I feel like you know sometimes I know that happens you know when we put in place things to protect different things. You know bluffs or that kind of stuff that I understand so I was just trying to see if maybe. Al-Jaff: I can’t speak for staff as to what they were thinking at that time. Thomas: Sure. Al-Jaff: Or what the Planning Commission was thinking or City Council when they made their recommendation. However, we always, whenever we look at a request we always evaluate do they have reasonable use of their property? And what constitutes reasonable use? When you are next to a lake, you need to enjoy a deck and be able to overlook the lake. That can be accomplished from the deck and from this side of the house. Do you need, so the question now 4 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 becomes do you need to enlarge the home to truly enjoy the home? Staff’s recommendation is that currently they have reasonable use of the property. They have an existing deck. There’s an existing patio. Dillon: So just to go back. So these other variances that were granted you know, was there a hardship or something like that involved with them? It’s probably way before anyone’s time here so I don’t know if we can answer that question but you know, was it the first deck they were putting on these houses to use the lake or does anyone know the details on that? Because precedent is kind of like been set in a few of these cases. I’m just kind of wondering to you know, not be inconsistent. Al-Jaff: We go back to the applicant has reasonable use of the property. They’ve already been granted a variance to put on the deck and. Dillon: Yeah. I get that. Thomas: I do have, I have one more question. Sorry. Okay. I just know in the, it said also we could, they could put on an, like an addition in the front or the side, is that correct? Auseth: Yes. Thomas: And then I guess my question is where? Auseth: Well, within the required setbacks and there would have to be, as part of the layout of the home but there’s room, if you look at the survey, there’s room to. Thomas: Like to the right? I just, just so I know. Auseth: Sure. As long as they stay within that 10 foot side yard setback. So if you look to the north side of the property. Thomas: Like where that little half circle, that what you mean? Auseth: On that half circle portion. As long as they stay within that, outside of the 75 foot setback and outside of the 10 foot side yard setback, that could be a possibility if the intent is to expand the living space. Staff was saying that there were other options as far as. Thomas: Yeah I just wanted to, yeah. See where staff was thinking in that, just so I knew too. Okay, thanks. Keefe: Just a follow-up on that. I mean did you get it through any evaluation or did the applicant do any evaluation of a possible addition on that side of the house? It looks like, what is that, the south side? What is the orientation? Auseth: This is north. So the. 5 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Keefe: The page is facing north/south, okay. Where that half circle is towards the bottom side of the house as we’re looking at the page. Auseth: Right. Or there can be additional, there’s space within the 30 foot front yard setback as well so there’s room within the buildable area for expansion. Keefe: Well I’m thinking of you know is there a spot that they could get enjoyment of the lake. I mean I don’t know how this house lays out and maybe that is a garage over there and it makes absolutely no sense to put there but you know I’m just curious if there is room without any, and was that ever discussed with the applicant or did the applicant consider that? Auseth: I’m not sure if the applicant considered that or not but there is space within that half circle area. Keefe: Okay. Potentially. Describe for me just a little, it’s more of a definitional question. Just the enhancing of the non-conformance is really means what in this case? I mean when you say enhancing a non-conformance. Al-Jaff: It’s intensifying the non-conformity. We’re turning. Keefe: The non-conformity here is that you have a deck that’s. Al-Jaff: That encroaches into the 75 foot setback. Keefe: Yes. Yeah. Al-Jaff: So now you’re taking the structure that is an accessory structure at that time, and by enclosing it and we often see porches that are 3 season porches. They are used year round pretty much. That becomes a living space. That’s an intense, you’re intensifying a use from accessory to part of the primary structure. Keefe: Well and you’re leading to me, to my question which is, is there something greater in terms of, that they can do with this? I wouldn’t quite go all the way to you know say a four season. You know is there something inbetween that they can do, or is anything that they do beyond what it currently is an intensification? Interpreted as an intensification. Al-Jaff: Once you enclose the space it becomes an intensification. Keefe: Three season, even 3 season, okay. Alright. Larson: Anybody else? Laufenburger: I had one last question. Larson: Okay, go ahead. 6 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Laufenburger: So they’re asking for a variance of two things. Number one, intensifying the usage of the existing deck. And they’re also asking for approval to build a deck above the floor level patio. Auseth: Right. Al-Jaff: Well in reality the intensification of the existing deck becomes a moot issue because you’re taking that space and converting it completely into another structure. Laufenburger: What I’m trying to figure out is, if the intensification of the existing deck alone was the request, or if simply adding a deck, I’m going to call it kind of a runway because it looks like it goes in front of the bay window. Would either of those elements alone meet the standard of acceptance, or would the, again I’m asking hypothetical question. Would staff recommend denial of either of those individually? Al-Jaff: Based upon the findings that we had in the staff report, when we compare it to what the guidelines of. Laufenburger: Yep. Al-Jaff: The ordinance. Laufenburger: That’s what I’m asking you to do. Al-Jaff: Requirements are. It is staff’s opinion that they currently do have reasonable use of the property. There is no demonstrated hardship and as such we would recommend denial of the request. Laufenburger: Okay. But to be clear, they are asking for approval of both an intensification of the existing deck, enclosing it, and adding that runway deck across the lake facing portion. Al-Jaff: Correct. Laufenburger: Okay. Thank you Chair. Dillon: If it was only enclosing the one deck, would they even have to be here? Auseth: They would. As it’s intensifying what was approved in the original variance. Dillon: I see. Larson: So the new, bigger deck without the walls, that’s a problem too? Auseth: Yes, because it doesn’t meet the 75 foot setback. 7 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Larson: And do we know, you may have already covered this. The potential, the site has a potential for additional site coverage on the lot. Is that where, that’s on your page 3 just below the picture. You’ve got that written. Is that where you’re saying it should be either in the front of the house or the side of the house or anywhere but within what they want to do? Auseth: If the intent is to provide, or expand the livable area, there are other places in which that can be achieved on the site. Larson: But do we know what the floorplan of the house is? I mean the places that you’re thinking that would be a better spot, does it even make sense to do so? I mean say if it’s on the front of the house and the room where you say it should, could be is a bedroom or a bathroom or something that really potentially you would not be able to add onto. You know I suspect that they’re looking at this as being able to expand the enjoyment of the house, which I don’t know. Okay. I guess that’s all I have anyway. Anybody else? Dillon: So I’m just kind of looking at the application here and it says requesting variance to transform present deck. Okay, we get that. And then relocate the deck. What’s getting moved? Auseth: I think that’s interpreted as that additional deck so now that the one deck will be gone, the new deck will take it’s place. Laufenburger: I think by definition they’re saying our existing deck will become a sun room. Therefore the deck is no longer there and this, that runway that I call it will be the deck. Dillon: Oh. Laufenburger: So the terminology the applicant is using it just to describe how they, I don’t, we can ask the applicant but my guess is they’re not going to pick up the deck that exists and re- frame it in front of the house. I think they’re going to take new wood. You know new footings. New wood and then build a sun room on top of the frame. That would be my guess. That’s how I would do it. Dillon: Choice of words is confusing because nothing’s getting relocated. Something new is getting built. Larson: Okay. Have we got an applicant? Come on up. State your name and address for the record please. Rich Peters: Okay. My name’s Rich Peters and I live at 7301 Laredo Drive. I think you’ve got a pretty good idea. No, we’re not relocating the deck. We’re just putting a different deck, putting a deck in a different place. This house is a 1960’s Bob Schoeller walkout rambler. They’re all over the older part of Chanhassen and it has limited space. We put the deck on. We moved there in ’94. We put the deck on. Built it over the top of a, what do you call it? It was a patio. Built up patio. You can see in the picture. Laufenburger: Something that existed before? 8 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Rich Peters: Oh yeah. It was I assume part of the original house, wasn’t it? In 1960, yeah. But it was 2 feet below the floor. The top floor so we built a deck on that. Now after being empty nesters for quite a while we have grandchildren. Not living with us, but grandchildren around a lot, and the house gets a little cramped you know with all the kids around and stuff so we’d like to just be able to use the deck more than 3 months out of the year. Have a little more time to use it. As far as putting additional, could we build it somewhere else? The top part of that picture, the north side would not give any room at all because I think we have probably less than 10 feet there already. Plus there’s two, there’s a 100 year oak tree there and a 100 year old ash tree. If you go out the other side there’s probably room but there’s two 100 year oak trees setting there that we’re still trying to keep alive, and I have no intentions of taking any trees down of 100 years old. If you go out the front side of the house, which would be the only option you would have, and there’s another 100 year old tree sitting out in that front part too, but you wouldn’t get any view of the lake. Plus the end where they have that curved pathway there, that’s bedrooms down there. It’s a typical Schoeller house. You’ve got the kitchen on one end and the bedrooms on the other and so we wouldn’t you know be adding bedrooms on. That’s all it would be down there. Basically we’re just, we’re not trying to go any closer to the lake than we are now. I think we’re 67 feet away or something like that, and that’s where it’s going to stay. The new deck will be closer to the house. Farther from the lake than it was before. So we’re really not changing any footprint or anything like that. But question about the lower patio. I think Denny you were asking about that. That was put in, excuse me. It was there when we got there in ’94 and it was the patio blocks. The rectangle cement patio blocks and all we did was in 2001 changed it to be a circular brick one rather than a square. Laufenburger: Like pavers or something like that? Rich Peters: Pavers, yeah. So it was there before and I assume that was there at the very beginning too but you know in 1960. Laufenburger: So you, when did you acquire the home? Rich Peters: ’94. Laufenburger: And that was there. Rich Peters: Yeah. Laufenburger: So when did you make your improvements to the patio? Rich Peters: 2001. Laufenburger: Okay. Rich Peters: Spring 2001. I don’t think there’s anything else. Eunice? Oh, I’m suppose to mention. We took all the grass out of the back yard going down to the lake and planted wild 9 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 flowers. Indigenous wild flowers and grasses so. You don’t see, you see it in the picture a little bit but the picture was probably too close. But it’s growing. There’s 1,200 plants in there. Larson: I just see grass in this picture. Rich Peters: Yeah. Yeah, it’s below that. Below that wall you know. Larson: Use your imagination right. Rich Peters: We planted 1,200 wild flowers and indigenous grasses, etc. Come back in 2 or 3 years. It takes a while to grow. But that’s all we’re asking for basically is to use our deck a little bit more than 3 months out of the year. Larson: Okay. You guys have any questions for the applicant? No? Rich Peters: Similar to what Jerry Fox who’s sitting here, got back in 1985. He got the same variance of a, of a porch. Larson: Okay. Laufenburger: I do have one question. Larson: Oh, go ahead Denny. Laufenburger: Why’d you put the wild flowers in? Rich Peters: Why? Laufenburger: Why did you put the wild flowers in? Rich Peters: Just for the lake. Laufenburger: Did the lake want the wild flowers? Rich Peters: No. Get the grass, it was solid grass. Then you’ve got all the fertilizer and all that stuff flowing into the lake, and the Clean Water, Lotus Lake Clean Water Association. Something like that. Can’t remember the whole name of it. You know I’ve been to a couple of those meetings. They’re trying to clean up the lake and so, and they had a list of contractors on the web site that did this type of thing so we went through the list and did that. There’s a second reason too. Do you want to hear the other reason or not? A little bit selfish. Laufenburger: That’s satisfactory. Rich Peters: I had to mow that so, but it’s better for the lake. Laufenburger: How many grandchildren do you have? 10 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Rich Peters: Four. Laufenburger: Congratulations. Rich Peters: Thank you. Laufenburger: Alright, that’s it. Larson: Okay. Rich Peters: Anything else for me? Larson: No, I think that’s it. Thank you. At this time I will open the hearing to the public. If anybody else wants to speak about this. Please state your name and address. Pardon? Jerry Fox: I’d like to speak to the issue. Larson: Okay. Please state your name and address. Jerry Fox: I’m Jerry Fox. 7300 Laredo Drive. We’re the property immediately north and it was my good fortune to appear before this body 13-14 years ago with a very similar request to add a deck and porch within the 75 foot setback. You very graciously granted me the variance and I cannot tell you how much we’ve enjoyed that ever since. We live on that porch all summer long and I think I can honestly say if it had not been granted, we probably would have moved. We wouldn’t be there today. But it’s so good to have that. It’s a wonderful addition to the house. It’s a wonderful addition to the community and it certainly adds to the value and what can I say. It’s just a plus, plus, plus all the way around for the community and for me as a neighbor and for them as occupants. So I wholeheartedly support it. I certainly hope you grant the variance. Thank you. Any questions? Laufenburger: I do. How long have you lived on your property? Jerry Fox: 19, 38 years. Laufenburger: Oh, not 1938. Jerry Fox: No. No, no, no, no. The house wasn’t built in 1938. Laufenburger: So 1970. Jerry Fox: That would be 39 years. Laufenburger: 1969? Jerry Fox: Yep. And enjoyed every minute of it. Thanks to your help too. Thank you. 11 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Larson: Thank you. Is there anybody else? Seeing nobody else, I’ll bring it back for discussion. How about you Dan? You want to start? Keefe: Well just a couple things. I mean you know, we’re suppose to enforce the rules and despite what I might like…I mean the question is, is there a hardship here? So I’m struggling to see if I can come up with a definition of a hardship, and the only thing that kind of comes to mind is, are the trees and do the trees sort of force our hand in the event that there’s nowhere else to do anything like this. It sort of forces, the question is, is that a hardship and do they have to do this? No, they probably have reasonable use of the property. And I think the rules state that you know, we’re here to interpret the rules and that’s my thought on that. Larson: Okay. Kathleen. Thomas: Yeah, I understand what you’re saying. That we have to interpret the rules and like I say, I struggle with just the aspect that I worry that it’s a matter of because they didn’t do it then, now they can’t do it now. Dillon: Do what? Thomas: Make it into a porch then, in ’96. Larson: Before the new rules. Thomas: Before everything occurred. I mean if you came in here and you asked for a variance then, and you just didn’t make it into a porch then, you know I struggle with that because it just, it doesn’t seem, I don’t know it just doesn’t seem completely right but. If we need a hardship I would say the trees are a hardship because I don’t really see it’s important to be cutting down 200 year old trees, or 100 year old trees on a property just to make space and I don’t know, I mean we live in Minnesota. I have a deck too and it stinks not having it enclosed because you can’t be out there with mosquitoes hanging around and that just, you know I don’t know it’s a hardship for me so sorry. I’ll have to think about it. Larson: Okay. Kevin. Dillon: I would tend to agree with Dan. I mean it seems like it’s a nice to have, you know for the applicant. It’s not like a you know, the grandkids are living with them and they need the extra living space, or anything like that. I mean I don’t see the hardship. There are you know the rules. There’s, so we’re asked to you know interpret them so I would, I mean it’s maybe, I mean there’s reasonable use of the property. Seems to be a good view of the lake. I mean I don’t know. I think I’m inclined to support the staff’s recommendation on this one. Larson: Okay. Denny. Laufenburger: I think it’s important that we acknowledge that the staff is doing their job in interpreting the rules and the guidelines that are in effect that govern this thing. These sorts of 12 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 things in Chanhassen so staff’s to be acknowledged and commended for that so thank you. I’m in favor of doing, allowing them to do with the existing deck what they want to do, but I think I’m not in favor of accepting the proposed deck. They have the patio which does give them use of that space. They want additional living space. I think I tend to say, make your choice. Do you want a deck or do you want to enclose the deck that you already have? So that’s kind of what I’m leaning towards but if I was forced to choose between either approving it as requested or denying it as the staff recommends, I think my inclination is to go along with the staff and deny it the way it exists. Larson: Okay. Laufenburger: That doesn’t mean that the applicant couldn’t come back with a modification but given the facts that we have right now, I’d be inclined to deny it the way it is. Larson: Okay. Well my thoughts on it are, the fact of the matter is that Kathleen brought up, if they had worked on this or done it 2 years ago before this new ordinance came in, they wouldn’t have been able to do it, correct? Dillon: No. Larson: No. They still would have had to get, gotten a variance. Al-Jaff: Correct. Larson: However, looking at the neighboring property, Mr. Laufenburger: Fox. Larson: Fox’s property, you know he’s 50 feet as opposed to the 60 feet that they’re going for. I honestly don’t have a problem with what they want to do. I would be inclined to go against what the staff’s recommendation, but that’s just my thoughts because I think the fact that Dan had mentioned that the hardship with the trees, you don’t want to go and cut down trees. They would like to be able to enjoy the property more, and I think the ordinance is wrong. They’re not asking for anything large. They’re not going beyond the impervious. I honestly don’t have a problem with this so that’s just my thoughts so. Dillon: But the trees and the hardship have nothing to do with this. I mean there’s an express intent to have a view of the lake and the trees aren’t anywhere near that so it’s no hardship. Larson: Well the hardship Kevin is with, they can’t, the other spots where they could potentially expand the house, if they wanted to. Dillon: But the point made was, and they very clearly stated, and I would, if I’m living there I’d want the same thing, to have a good view of the lake and the trees are on the side and the front of the house, it doesn’t afford a good view of the lake. 13 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Larson: They want to expand the house so they have more use. Dillon: That’s not what I heard but. Larson: Well. Laufenburger: What I heard was expanded living space because of 4 grandchildren are invading them and they want to make good space for them. Larson: Right. Laufenburger: I think his words were, you know we’re running out of space. Larson: Yeah, I mean right. Dillon: Okay, well. Larson: Is that not? Dillon: That and have a good view of the lake too so I mean. Larson: I guess. Keefe: There are limited locations they could put this to have a view of the lake. But the question comes back is, do they have reasonable use and that’s really what the ordinance, what we have to interpret. Determine reasonable use and is there a hardship… Larson: But where my disagreement is, is their definition of, the City’s definition of reasonable use is different than their definition of reasonable use and I tend to agree with them so. But that’s just my opinion. Right or wrong. Okay. Have I got a recommendation? I can’t do it. Oh, I’m sorry. Dillon: I’ll make a motion. Larson: Hold on. I didn’t close the public hearing. Sorry. Now I will take a recommendation. Laufenburger: Can we talk about this just a little bit more? Larson: Sure. Laufenburger: I’d like to hear just a recap of the commissioners view of approval, approving the staff’s recommendation for denial or over ruling the staff’s recommendation and recommend approval of the permit. Dillon: That’s what we’re going to vote on. 14 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Laufenburger: Yeah. I’d like to hear just a little bit more dialogue about that. Hear the arguments why you feel one way or another. Dan, could I just ask you for clarification? Keefe: Well I mean just to kind of re-state what I said. Laufenburger: Yeah. Keefe: You know I think we’re here to interpret the rules. Is there a hardship? I’m struggling to come up with one. I really can’t find a hardship and so, you know it’s my, you know in the absence of a hardship we have to follow through all this now. Despite what I might like to do. I mean we’re here to interpret the rules. That’s our job so. Laufenburger: Okay. Keefe: That’s kind of where I come down. Laufenburger: Kathleen. Can I hear you again? Thomas: Sure. Mine is, I really think that the deck to be enclosed is, not that, I’m trying to make it so it’s concise. I’m in favor of enclosing the deck into a porch. If not because I think reasonable use of the property is having a good view of the lake and having it to it’s full potential and knowing where we live, the climate and everything, I understand that aspect of the porch. Wanting it for more than 3, you know 3 months out of the year, if that in Minnesota and I guess my parents had a 3 season porch, not in the city by any means but we used it 3 seasons. I mean she used it as a giant refrigerator in the wintertime. That’s where all the leftovers went so, it’s not like it’s something that the grandkids can be playing outside in in 3 season in January you know. It’s something that’s livable space. Larson: Kevin, you have anything? Dillon: Yeah, I too cannot find the hardship in this application and you know that has been pretty you know clear. One of the guidelines for granting a variance is that there needs to be some sort of expressed hardship or lack of use of the property or something of this sort and I can’t find any of that. Plus, and you know it’s, the letter from the DNR, you know they have an opinion here that they oppose structural variances unless there’s a demonstrated hardship as defined and you know they can’t find one either. And not that they’re always the all and end all in these issues but I think it’s an opinion that it matters and you know so that’s just another bit of rationale. Laufenburger: In re-stating why I think from my perspective the, if our job is to interpret or to act on the permit the way it’s been applied, I would tend to decline, to deny it in support of the staff. However, I do share Kathleen’s view that turning the deck into a 3 season porch, that seems like a reasonable use of that, so that’s where I would go. Thank you. Dillon: We’ve got kind of an all or nothing deal here. 15 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Laufenburger: Yeah. Unless we choose to go forward with some other recommendation. Dillon: Well that would be up to, then the applicant I think would want, I mean you know we can… Laufenburger: Yeah, it would be inappropriate for us to say you can’t do that but if you want to do something else, we’ll allow you to do that. Well we don’t know that they want to do that. Dillon: Well we can’t say that until we know what it is so. Laufenburger: Right. Dillon: I mean I think we’ve got to vote on this as it stands. Laufenburger: I would agree. Keefe: Agree. Laufenburger: Thank you for indulging me Chair. Larson: Okay. No problem. Now, can I get a recommendation. Dillon: So, yes. Al-Jaff: If you choose to vote on enclosing the deck and not approving the building of the brand new deck, then you can make a motion to that effect. So right now you have two requests in front of you. The first one is enclosing the existing deck. The second, and turning it into a porch. And the second one is building a new deck. Thomas: So we turn it into two things. Right? Al-Jaff: So you can vote to deny both of them. Approve both of them. Approve one. Deny the other. Dillon: So we closed the public part of this but in your discussions with the applicant, is that something that they’d be okay with? I mean, or else are we just wasting our time doing that? Al-Jaff: The applicant is here should you choose to. Dillon: Can we open that? Larson: Would you like to, yeah. Let’s open it back up. Could we get the applicant up here again? Get your opinion, if you don’t mind. Rich Peters: So what you’re saying is, no on the deck and yes on the. Excuse me, no on the additional deck. Yes on the porch or sunroom. 16 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Larson: It’s just a thought. What do you think? Rich Peters: I don’t know if I’d want to do that, yeah. I really don’t. Larson: So you want all or nothing, correct? Rich Peters: Yeah, I think so. I just don’t think the rest of it would fit at all. But the part about the trees, I want to get back to that again as long as I’ve got the floor here. You can’t build at each end of the house. They’re big oak trees. Ash trees. Some maples. You know we’re not going to take down trees to add onto our house that way. It just doesn’t make any sense. Dillon: But even if they were little oak trees and you know they were very small little saplings and they could, would that even be something you’d consider? See because I don’t, what I thought is you want the lake, right? Rich Peters: Yeah, yeah, but you yeah, you’d have to, but the end that has the room, okay. Assuming they’re small trees, is bedrooms. You know there’s 2 or 3 bedrooms at that end and bathrooms. There’s. Eunice Peters: And it’s drainage. Rich Peters: Yeah, it’s a drainage also. Yeah, that’s another thing. All the water from the street and the lake you know drains down to the lake through that, through the property lines there you know. It’s a, they call it a dry creek bed. So you wouldn’t, you couldn’t really do it there either because of the water drainage. Dillon: But okay, say no trees. No water problems. Would you still want to do something there? Rich Peters: At the end of the bedrooms? No. No, because it wouldn’t make any sense to put a family room at the end of the bedrooms. Without remodeling the whole house. Larson: Anyone else have questions for him while he’s up here? Thank you. Okay. We’re now closed. Keefe: Can we discuss just a little more? Larson: Okay. Keefe: I want to hear a little bit more just on why you like one over the other. Looking at sort of… Laufenburger: I think from my perspective I’m trying to satisfy what they’re requirement. You know their state of requirements. They want more living space so the grandchildren can be there. I guess it’s Kathleen who thought I, articulated it quite well and that is turning the deck 17 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 into a 3 season sunroom would give them that living space. You know the space in front of the walkout doorway, which is a patio, seems to be functioning as a very, very good view and livable area outside of the house which gives them access to the lake. So I think what I, my interpretation is I think it’s, I believe it’s acceptable although it’s a term that the staff uses is correct. It intensifies the usage. I would view that that would be an acceptable way of giving them the livable space that they’re looking for and not setting a precedent of additional variance for that deck which would be within, that would fall within the 75 foot setback. So that’s, I guess I was thinking, that feels like a compromise that might be satisfactory. We now know from the property owner, the applicant, that that’s not acceptable so I think that Dan by itself makes it a moot point. Keefe: Okay. That’s all I have. Dillon: So I’ll make a motion that the Chanhassen Planning Commission denies Planning Case 08-19 for a 15 foot shoreland setback variance to convert an existing deck into a porch and construct a new deck on Lot 12, Block 1, Sunrise Hills Addition based on adoption of the attached Findings of Fact and action. Larson: Do you want to second? Laufenburger: Second. Dillon moved, Laufenburger seconded that the Chanhassen Planning Commission denies Planning Case 08-19 for a 15 foot shoreland setback variance to convert an existing deck into a porch and construct a new deck on Lot 12, Block 1, Sunrise Hills Addition based on adoption of the attached Findings of Fact and Action. All voted in favor, except Larson and Thomas who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 2. Larson: Next on the agenda. Laufenburger: Just point of order Chair. Larson: Pardon? Laufenburger: Is our recommendation for denial of the request, does that go to the City Council? Larson: Yes. Laufenburger: Okay. So it’s quite possible the City Council can overrule our recommendation? Larson: Correct. Very possible. Keefe: That is if they choose. Al-Jaff: If your decision was appealed, then yes the City Council can overrule. 18 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Keefe: It’s at their request. Laufenburger: It’s at the applicant’s desire or not. Keefe: To appeal it. If it’s unanimous then that’s not the case. Al-Jaff: You need three-fourths vote for a motion to pass and in this case it was three-fourths. Laufenburger: Three-fifths. Al-Jaff: Three-fifths to deny and that’s the motion on the record right now. Laufenburger: Okay. Al-Jaff: Should the applicant choose to appeal your decision, then they appeal it to the City Council and. Larson: Okay. Onto the next. PUBLIC HEARING: WALL VARIANCE: REQUEST FOR A REAR YARD SETBACK VARIANCE FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF AN ADDITION ON PROPERTY ZONED RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY (RSF) LOCATED AT 800 CARVER BEACH ROAD. APPLICANT: DOUGLAS AND MARTHA WALL, PLANNING CASE 08-20. Public Present: Name Address Stan Ross, AE Architecture 13860 Fawn Ridge Way, Apple Valley Douglas Wall 800 Carver Beach Road Angie Auseth presented the staff report on this item. Keefe: So here’s a question. On reasonable use, the definition of reasonable use here. This addition is required or fits within the definition of reasonable use. Is that the thinking? You know as sort of opposed to the one that we just visited where we’re saying well, he’s already got reasonable use of his property. Now we’re saying, and we denied that because we say they already had reasonable use. Well, in this case they made a request or saying well there is a hardship here because yeah, the lot isn’t deep enough but you know do they already have reasonable use of the, I guess that’s the question. Do they already have reasonable use of it? Auseth: They do have a single family home and a two car garage. Keefe: Right. 19 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Auseth: Uniquely to this situation is that this property does not meet the minimum depth requirement. Keefe: Okay. Larson: Kathleen. Thomas: And that’s because, it doesn’t meet the depth requirement because when it was built in 1995 that that was, no? No? Auseth: Because of the way that it was platted in 1927 where this public right-of-way, that determines where the front yard is so let’s, if the property fronted on Carver Beach, the south where it says side yard, that would be the front. Opposite of that would be the rear yard so that’s where the 30 feet would come in, and then the two other sides would be 10 foot setbacks. But that’s not the case in this situation. That public right-of-way makes it a 30 foot front yard and a 30 foot rear yard on the west and east property lines. Larson: Kevin. Dillon: You know I don’t have any questions right now. Larson: And you Denny. Laufenburger: None at this time. Larson: I’ve got one. So with this, where the red slash marks are on your page 4. Once this is built, how much distance is there from the lot line. Auseth: 15 feet. Larson: 15. And in looking at this with the applicant, do you happen to know if they talked to their neighbors about it? If they had any issues with that or do you know? Auseth: I don’t know if they had spoken with their neighbors or not. Staff did not receive any phone calls from anyone regarding this application. Larson: Because 15 feet seems awfully close. I would think there might be an issue with that but. Al-Jaff: Every individual homeowners within 500 feet of the subject property was notified. Larson: I see, okay. Al-Jaff: And that’s why Angie was saying we have not heard from them. There was also a sign that goes up that says proposed development so there are a couple of ways to let the neighbors know that something is happening here. Contact city staff if you have any objections. 20 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Larson: I see. Okay. Does anybody else have any questions for staff? Keefe: Yeah, I just got to, I have to revisit this for a minute because I’m struggling a little bit because we denied the previous one because they already had, because we said that they already had reasonable use of the property. What we’re saying here is that we will, we will grant these guys a variance because there is a hardship and the reason there’s hardship is because there’s not reasonable use of the property. Is that a fair way of stating it? I’m struggling with it a little bit. Larson: I struggled with that one too. Keefe: I do understand the lot depth issue and when it was platted and you know, they knew that when the house was built in ’95. They built it within the setback requirements. I presume the setback requirements were probably the same in ’95. Auseth: Yes. Keefe: And now we’re going to grant them a variance because we say there isn’t reasonable use but having said that, they do have reasonable use. The house was built in ’95. It’s one thing if it was built in 1930. I’m just, if you can elaborate a little bit or give me some. Al-Jaff: There are multiple things that we look at in addition to reasonable use. The topography. The shape of the parcel. When we say this is 100 foot deep parcel and this is something that we have struggled with for many years. We’ve always had in-house discussions. We’ve come in front of the Planning Commission to discuss this issue. You have a subdivision that pre-dates the ordinance. Yet we are trying to have current setbacks, current ordinances. The 30 foot setback on this parcel has to be proportionate to the lot depth is what we’re trying to get at. In the past we’ve come before you and we’ve reduced front yard setbacks in general in the Carver Beach area if anybody wants to add a front porch for instance. And the Planning Commission and City Council have seen the wisdom in that and they’ve said we agree with you. Do that. This somewhat falls into that category and when we talk about there is a hardship with the depth again, our intention is to keep the setback proportionate to the depth of this parcel. Laufenburger: Sharmeen is it true that, I think Angie said by definition the front yard is measured from the public right-of-way to the back lot. The 100 feet. Al-Jaff: Correct. Laufenburger: Okay. And what is the, what is the, what is the permittable, or what is the acceptable setback for a front yard setback and a rear yard setback? Auseth: 30 feet. Laufenburger: Okay. And what is the acceptable setback for a side yard? Auseth: 10 feet. 21 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Laufenburger: So if per chance we could just shuffle the words here and call the, what is currently labeled side yard. If we call that front yard. Say that again? Keefe: I said don’t go there. But no, go ahead. Sorry. Laufenburger: But if that were the case, if in fact that fronted onto Carver Beach Road and that was by definition the front yard, then this applicant would not be here. Auseth: Right. Keefe: You’re right. Laufenburger: Thank you. Larson: Okay. Anybody else want to ask anything? Okay. Have we got an applicant here that would like to present? Please state your name and address for the record. Douglas Wall: My name is Douglas Wall and I live at 800 Carver Beach Road and we basically bought the house a year ago and we’ve only lived there a year and we’ve talked to the neighbors who, if you look at the rear yard, what you consider the rear yard. Their house is probably less than 10 feet from the boundary. They’ve got a variance on record already and they said they fought with the city to get it. And they got it and they fully support our building a new addition so. And we’ve also argued with the city about since our address is technically Carver Beach Road, that side yard should be our front yard so we shouldn’t really have to be here for this. But we are so, any questions? I mean I’ll try to answer anything. Keefe: Well yeah, just a quick question. It doesn’t make sense to add it, make an addition on the side yard, or to the, what direct would that be? Douglas Wall: Well if you go to the, where all the trees are. Keefe: Where all the room is. Douglas Wall: We thought about that except the two, that end of it is where the bedrooms are and this is a dining room so if we added up there it wouldn’t make a lot of sense. Where we’re putting it is right off of the kitchen and where the old dining room was which basically it’s a dining room, kitchen and living room all one. I’m just trying to make that a little bit bigger. That’s the idea so. Larson: And I agree. I think you know, I’m in agreeance with this whole aspect and everything. I just wish that, I mean it has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with the, you know the person who built the house. That it was known that this was how big the lot was and here’s your setback so why plan a house the way you do kind of just boggles my mind. Larson: Okay. Anybody else have any questions for the applicant? 22 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Laufenburger: I have a couple. So you answered the one question. You bought it a year ago. Douglas Wall: Yep. Year and one month. Laufenburger: Who, what are the names of the people that live in the house just behind you? Douglas Wall: Oh geez, I should have brought that. Mike and, I can’t remember. I should look at my list. Laufenburger: These are the people that you spoke with and they said. Douglas Wall: Mike and I think it’s Randy or something like that. Yeah, they. Laufenburger: That’s on Hopi Road? Douglas Wall: Hopi Road. Yeah they basically, when they bought that house it was just like a fishing shack and they’ve spent like, they said about 10 to 15 years adding on. They took a garage and built it bigger and. Laufenburger: Okay. The other question I have relates to the public right-of-way. That public right-of-way is kind of your front yard. Douglas Wall: That’s what you consider, yes. Laufenburger: Do you care for that? I mean do you tend to that or is that, does somebody else care for that? Douglas Wall: That public right-of-way is actually just a bunch of trees. Laufenburger: Oh. Douglas Wall: There’s no road. There’s no. Laufenburger: So you don’t have any use of that even. Douglas Wall: It’s trees. I mean there’s nothing that we, no. We can’t drive on it. We can’t do anything on it. Laufenburger: Alright. Douglas Wall: Actually we’ve even thought about having the city abandon it to the homeowners. So that might be the next project I go through. Laufenburger: Welcome to Chanhassen. We glad you live here. I hope you’re glad that you live here too. That was my only question. Thanks Chair. 23 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Larson: Alright. I don’t have any questions at this time. Thank you very much. Douglas Wall: Thank you. Larson: At this time I will open up the hearing to the public. Does anybody have any comments? Questions. Alright. Don’t all rush up. Okay, seeing nobody I will close the public hearing. Then discuss. Keefe: I’m having a little bit of issue with the, comparing the two and they’re not really directly comparable but they’re, the issue of reasonable use comes to mind here. So I’m struggling with that a little bit. I think you know one of the factors which comes into play here is the location and adjacency and how that, how it sits on this particular lot. And the orientation of this particular lot to the public right-of-way. So you know that could be maybe the issue which you know, I don’t know if again that meets the definition of, you know if I can find where that sort of comes into hardship. I mean I do think that they have reasonable use of this house. You know I mean it’s a relatively new house so I don’t know I’m sure I’m buying that that’s a hardship you know or if that’s a reason for a hardship. But having said that, because of the orientation of this house and because of the, where this house kind of sits next to the public right-of-way, that maybe it’s really more of a Carver Beach Road and if you change the front and side that he was referencing, then we would get over it. They wouldn’t even be here so yeah. Food for thought. Larson: Okay. Kathleen. Thomas: I’m in support of this variance…and so I do see as a hardship and I feel like it’s tough when homeowners are put in a position from other homeowners… Larson: Kevin. Dillon: I think it just goes to show that each one of these things is unique and you know we get all spun up about setting precedence for this and precedence for that but there’s no two situations are alike. And you know I mean, I know our houses on our neighborhood are like a lot closer together than this one so I don’t have, no issues supporting the staff recommendation. Larson: Okay. How about you Denny? Laufenburger: I support it. Larson: Okay. Well my thoughts are, you know I guess it is a hardship because of the person who planted this house in the first place on this spot. I’m a little bit leery about the fact that it is very close to the lot line. 15 feet is very close but as Denny pointed out, if the. Dillon: If the tables were turned. Larson: If the house was turned, the directional however it’s been characterized was turned, then it wouldn’t be an issue so I think I will support of it as well so. Can I have a recommendation? 24 Planning Commission Meeting - October 7, 2008 Thomas: …suppose to close it again? Close it just to make sure. Larson: Alright, we’re close. We’re really closed. May I have a recommendation? Laufenburger: Madam Chairman. Chanhassen Planning Commission, I recommend, make a motion that the Chanhassen Planning Commission approves Planning Case 08-20 granting a 15 foot variance from the 30 foot rear yard setback requirement for the construction of a 15 by 15 foot dining room addition and deck on Lots 1080 through 1089 Carver Beach, subject to condition 1 which is application for a building permit and adoption of the attached Findings of Fact and action. Larson: Do I have a second? Thomas: Second. Laufenburger moved, Thomas seconded that the Chanhassen Planning Commission approves Planning Case 08-20 granting a 15 foot variance from the 30 foot rear yard setback requirement for the construction of a 15 x 15 foot dining room addition and deck, as shown on plans dated Received September 5, 2008, on Lots 1080 through 1089, Carver Beach, and adoption of the attached Findings of Fact and Action and subject to the following condition: 1. The applicant must apply for a building permit. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Commissioner Laufenburger noted the verbatim and summary minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated September 2, 2008 as presented, and summary minutes of the Planning Commission work session dated September 16, 2008 as presented. Chair Larson adjourned the Planning Commission meeting at 8:05 p.m. Submitted by Kate Aanenson Community Development Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 25