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1990 05 02CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MAY 2, 1990 Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7:35 p~m.. MEM8ERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Steve Emmings~ Annette Ellson~ Ladd Conrad, arian 8atzli, Jim Nildermuth and Joan Ahrens STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krau. ss, Planning Director; Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner; and Sharrnin Al-Jarl, Planning Intern PUBLIC HEARING: VARIANCE TO THE SIGN ORDINANCE TO HAVE 2 WALL SIGNS AND SITE PLAN AMENDMENT FOR THE CHANHASSEN MEDICAL CENTER LOCATED AT WEST 78TH STREET, BRAD JOHNSON. Public Present: Name Address grad Johnson Bob Mithune John 3acobson, Vice Pres. of Professional Services Dan Anderson Applicant, Lotus Realty Developer Ridgeview Medical Center Manager~ Chanhassen Medical Center Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report on this item~ Chairman Conrad called the public hearing to order. Brad Johnson: I guess what I'd like to address is the things that Jo Ann was addressing was primarily that this plan had not been approved by either the Planning Commission or the City Council yet 3 of us were at this meeting where they approved it including Arvid Ellness and we've got records of shipment of plans to here on the 17th to Steve Hanson. The only 'khing we're missing is Steve Hanson because he's not here to deal with it because at that time we weren't dealing with this particular people on the staff. So it's been our feeling from the very beginning and until what, Friday or Thursday of last week that 5 signs had been approved on both s~des. So we're kind of surprised. Seoendly then I think we'd just like to present it based upon it's merit and you can reconsider it so that we'll present cur case once more and hopefully it comes out okay~ So that's probably how we'd like to approach it. We have John Jacobsen and~..from the Clinic...and 8ob Hoveland who worked with us on the original review. Let tls show you where the signs would be located first, lhis is kind of a big plan of what downtown... To get a little history on why the building is where the building is se they'll understand, lhis is a total plan fer the dewntown area. Site plan. Bob Mit. huns: Hopefully you're all oriented so just briefly, this is the Kenny's and so on, strip center right here. This is the new professional center, office building and this is the existing lawn sports arid the Riveria over here. And the Heritage Park apartments are right here. Brad Johnson: Right behind it. Planning Commission Meeting May 2, 1990 - Page 2 Bob Mithune: Originally our first plans that we submitted to the City had this buildin.g back here. Right along here and all the parking in front but the City didn't want that. And the City didn't want it I guess because number one, just like what is going on over on this side of the Riveria. What's that called? Brad Johnson' Town Square~ 8ob Mithune: And similar to this development and secondly, they thought this would be more like a building in a city. Dewntewn city that's right up close te these sidewalks. So we went along with that and what that resulted in is a building with maybe 2 fronts. I think that's important for consideration. grad Johnson: ~nd where do we place the signs.~. Bob Mithune: Well we wanted 5 signs located 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and again or, this side, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. grad Johnson: Now if you're looking at the building, you can look at the zoning downtown and you call have 15P¢ of the front of a building can be signs from the CBD district en the main street...twe fronts. This will be tile only building in town that weuld have actually two fronts. It has an entrance on the parking lot side and then the other side so we did a quick calculation and we are using 6~ of the front of this building so we're well belew the allewed amount of signage that would be en the building and we've traded, if you read ali. yeur ordinances, they want te have a new preposed sign ordinance. I don't think which has passed. They prefer to have a sign ban on the building with a limit of height and everything so you have seine centrol as te where those signs will be so they're not plastered all over the building so they have some consistency with the building. And this is any building in downtown, we've always been stuck to that concept that we should have a sign ban. It also gives us control over what is there. It was the opinion of Fred Hoisington I believe that also this building should have some color and he felt the addition of signs which would be in varying colors potentially, the neon signs, they basically are neon backed signs, would add to the interest in the building itself. I can remember that discussion with Fred. So basically we have the 5 signs on both sides. Basically they're there te advertise the tenants. This is not an office building as we think ef it as a prefessional services building where you'll have insurance agency and your real estate people, myself, who want te advertise the fact that they're in the building and they're not, sert of passive. One ef the requirements of all our tenants including the dentist, is that. they have some kind ef identification en the building because that's one of the reasens they want this location is because they realize it's high traffic area. So then the second preblem you have is if you have signs just in the front and none in the back, people can't identify where they're suppesed to go in and relate to what it is so I guess that's basically cur presentatien. Beth sides are using about 6~ of the available frontage fer signs. They're on a sign ban. They're below your ordinance requirements. It is the only building like this in town and finally, was approved once te cur way ef thinking because we sent the stuff Planning Commission Meeting May 2, 1990 - Page 3 over here and I was standing up here. It just wasn't an issue at. that meeting. Everybody was interested in the control bumps and the traffic~ I think you remember that. So I think it just blew right by and Headla said that., he used te sit right their'e, he said the signs look fine and that was the only comment they said about signs and why did we want~.~ I leave it to your discretion. ~o you from the clinic want to say anything as far as the need ef signs? There seems te be sene concern here that businesses don't need signs such as yourself. Conrad: Any other comments? John Jacobson: These are not all comments 'that I have. I did have a couple handouts. My name is John Jacobson. I 'm Vice President of Professional Services at Ridgeview Medical Center and ~ did want to take the opportunity to introduce Dan ~nderson who is the clinic manager at Chanhassen Medical Center. Dan just recently joined us and ~ should say is doing a very excellent Sob, particularly the last week in getting the clinic moved il]to a new location. I want to thank the commission for the opportunity tonight to appear before you. ~s Brad suggested, what we are requesting is allowing the Chanhassen Medical Center and our Business Health Services~ which are businesses that are both owned and operated by Ridgeview Medical Center, to place high quality signage on both sides of the Chanhassen Professional Building. ~s Brad suggested, we're really requesting this for a couple ef reasons. First of all, as Brad did elude to, we really feel that this building does have two fronts and signage is important on both sides. The street side from an awareness perspective. lhe fact that Business Health Services is there. The Chanhassen Medical Center is there and then on the parking let side, te identify which entrances people should go in. As Bob indicated, if the parking were in front3 of the building, this would obviously not be an issue. We wou].d be very satisfied with signage on one side of the building. Secondly, if you. look at the building design itself, the northeast corner is really only for the Chanhassen Medical Center and people cannot get from that northeast corner up to the second floor so we want to be sure that we have very clear signage. The only way they can really get to the second floor on the north side is on the northwest side and not the northeast side so we want to have signage that makes that very clear. Thirdly and perhaps most importantly, we feel and if I could paraphrase John Oevins who's the President of Ridgeview Medical Center who could not be here this evening and asked me to talk in his stead. He feels very strongly that really as a major tenant in the building, we really do have the entire first floor between the Chanhassen Medical Center and 8usiness Health Services. We feel it extremely important that we have appropriate signage on either side of the building. The signage that we're proposing is a high quality, individually illuminated signs with a type style that's referred to as clared on bold. The letters will be approximately i0 inches in height and we anticipate the signage to be very professional looking and really enhance the looks of the building. Those are my comments~ If anyone has any questions or thoughts, I'd be more than happy to entertain them. I de have, in case anyone is curious, copies of the specs on exactly what it is Nc're talking about. It gives you a little bit of a feel for the size ef the lettering and the type of the lettering that ~e're talking abeut~ Thank you. Planning Commissior~ Meeting May 2~ 1990 - Page 4 Conrad: Any other comments? Is there a motion to close the public hear ing? Batzli moved, Wildermuth seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. Conrad: 3oar',, we'll start down at your end. Comments. Questions. Recommendations. Ahrens: I know very little about this building. Is there a lobby inside? grad Johnson: Yes. On one end there's a... The way this works is there's a lobby coming in on the north there. On this end there's a lobby that's for the upstairs and downstairs... This is 'the north side. So you come in here and you go upstairs te the tenants that are en the second floor and you'd also go 'Lo Business Health Services which is located on the first floor. If you want to go to the Medical Center...you go in this door. Ahrens: Because there's not an interior hallway? grad Johnson: No. That's why they just take the whole floor and so this entrance is only for the medical center. That's what John was saying. Ahrens: I assume there will be some type of a signage inside the lobby that tells you where the location of the offices inside so people who come into the lobby will know where to Brad Johnson: Oh sure. But not for the medical center. Ahrens: Right. In the staff report, there's a statement in the background statement that says one of the conditions of approval was that ne business may have more than eno wall sign as regulated with the sign ordinance. Wall sign refers to the ban also? Is that what? Okay. I assume there's going to be more than~ how many tenants are going to be in the building? Brad Johnson: Ha.jot tenants, probably about 5 or 6 and then small, 10. Ahrens: So you want to advertise the major tenants in the building like a ban sign? Brad Johnson: Yes. That's basically why we have the 5 on both sides. Ahrens: But there will be more than one sign for the medical, tenant right? Brad Johnson: I think that's what's been recommended and I think the staff said that's fine. Ahrens: So what you wanted 2 bans for each major tenant? Is that what you wanted? Brad Johnson: Two bans for the two major tenants which are here tonight. Then one for the balance of the... Planning Commission Meeting Ahrens: So you want 5 in the front and 5 in the back? Brad Johnson: Okay, there will be 5 in 'the front and 5 in the back with Medical t--'teaJhth Services having 2. Or what do you call it, Business Health Services. And the Medical Center having 2 bees. use they take up a good share of the building and that ~ill give direction as to Hhere people should 8o and identification, lhe balance ef the tenants probably Heuld have ene~ As I read the staff report, what they ~ere concerned about Has more not ~hether you really had one or two signs but that there were no more signs than allowed. Is that right? Olsen: Than Here originally approved, yes. Ahrens: The plans that were submitted on April 19th, the second set of plans or whatever. I don't know how many plans they submitted. grad Johnson: Ue submitted the second plans on the 17th. Ahrens: Okay. So those are the plans that you referred to as ~pril 1.9th plans? Olsen: 1Bt. h, yeah Ahrens: 18th? Okay. At ~ho's request were those plans submitted? What e~as the purpose ef having those extra plans submitted? Brad Johnson: Steve Hanson. Nildermuth: He can blame it on Steve. Brad Johnson: No, no. Ids submitted a set of plans and they were incornplete relative to the signage so we submitted those on Friday and Honday we came back. It was a site plan that had the sign en it and the elevation that had the signs en it were incomplete. Ne caught it ~4hen we received it and we said to the architect why did you do that and that was like ena Thursday. So on Friday we shipped over the balance of the plans...and then we colored them up and presented them this way. Ahrens: Uhw would the first set of plans have 5 signs indicated on them and the second set of plans have 107 Brad Johnson: Oh, just because the architect hadn't consulted with us, Bob and I and the o~ners of the building as to what kind of signage we wanted. That ~aas all. So we caught it Nhen we got the plans and we said, hey that's not right and we submitted it. kJe cleared it verbally with Steve Hanson. He's just not here. Ahrens: So you're saying that the City, Steve Hanson, approved 10 signs? 8rad .7ohnson: The Planning Commission, we say, but there's no record of it bu.t we presented this plan. Ahrens: With 10 signs to the Planning Commission? Planning Commission Meeting May 2, 1990 - Page 6 Brad Johnson: And it wasn't even an issue at the meeting. Basically that's less signage than we could do just by ordinance. The ordinance permits 15% which this is less signage. Emmings: Yeah, is-that 1St is the maximum? Brad Johnson: Yeah. Emmings: You get what gets approved. You don't automatically get You're saying things a lit'tie... Brad 3ohnson: It's a good argument.. Emmings: Yeah. Ahrens: My impression is that a lot of illuminated signs on the front of a buildin~ does make it resemble a strip mall. It seems that if the City Council had wanted, there was a desire to have the building moved to the front of the property so that it would be more like a downtown type of building and that it wouldn't look like a strip mall. So it scorns to me that if you put 'that kind of signage on the front of the building, it kind of defeats the purpose of moving the building to the front of the property and having i'L look like a regular downtown building. Brad Johnson: There was no discussion about that. We always presented this building... Ahrens: Well, they may not have thought about that but I just thought of it. Bob Mithune: Well there was discussion but not part of the City Council and that's wha't the planners at that time wanted. Ahrens: They wanted the building moved to the front of the lot. Bob Mithune: And 'they wanted a lot of colorful signs. Ahrens: A lot of colorful signs? Well, I can't imagine that would look very good. That's my own personal opinion. That a lot of colorful signs on the front of the building is going to make it look like a real professional building. Brad Johnson: What. is a real professional building? Ahrens: Well, one with less illuminated signs all over the front. Lots of colorful signs. That's my personal opinion like I said~ I think it's subjective. There's no objective standard for what a professional building shou. ld look like but if it's moved to the front of the property where it's supposed to look like a regular office building in a downtown area, I don't see the purpose for that and I think that if there is signage in the inside of the building where people, it's not that big a buildin~ where people woulcl get. ].est trying to find. Planning Commission Meeting May 2, 1990 - Page 7 Brad Johnson: It's a very large building when it's all completed. Ahrens: Well I've been by it. It's not a huge building. 8racl ~ohnson: h.lo~ there's another whole wing that goes with this thing. It goes cfi all the way down to the Riveria. Ahrens: It's not built },et? grad Johnson: No. Conrad: You're only looking at half here. Brad Johnson: You're only looking at half the building. Ahrens: Well~ I think that signage inside a building up there is a lobby to direct people. I mean it's not a huge office building. Brad Johnson: I appreciate what you're saying but this is not an office building. It's a professional service building which is like retail. The tenants that we put in there expect signage. Ahrens: Well I think there's a big difference between a retail building and a professional building... Brad Johnson: My tenants' point of view. I'm the one.~.they want signs or they wouldn't be here. Ahrens: Well okay. I mean I don't want to argue with you. I'm giving you my opi. nion and that's the purpose of having our report right now. I don't have any more corriments at this time. Wildern',uth: Would you have more than one tenant on a sign bar? On a single sign bar Brad? Brad Johnson: More than one tenant on a single? The ban could handle like two probably. Each ene of these bars. Wildermuth: Then you would plan to do something like that? I mean potentially? Brad Johnson: They have to come back each time we do a sign. We have enough sign space here we think for our tenants... Wildermuth: How many tenants potentially will you have in the building? Brad Johnson: You've got to talk about major tenants and minor. We're raj. king abeut 6 major tenants. Wildermuth: Just total. Brad Johnson: We could have about 30. Planning Commission Meeting May 2, 1990 - Page 8 klildermut, h: Okay~ so there are quite a nun, bet that won't have sign Brad Johnson: That's right. It's mainly the ones like..~doctor or dentist ~,ho ~e really are concerned about. Wildermuth: Well in all honesty~ I'm not very impressed with the appearance of the building te begin ~ith. It seems te me that the front ef the building probably ought te have a single sign ban arid maybe the back could have 3. Something like that but I'm not in favor of illuminating the signs and I'm certainly not in favor of 5 sign bans in front and 5 sign bans in back. The Southdale Medical Building for example doesn't have any signs. Brad Johnson: That's a different~.. Wildermuth: Ho~a do you see that Brad as a different kind of building? Brad ~ohnson: John~ maybe you want to address marketing of health services because this is not, I'm dealing ~ith ~hat the tenants require. Not so muc h.. ~ Nildermuth: I understand John Jacobson: I think part of our objective here is that. the Chanhassen Hedical Center is going to be attracting people from a fairly geographic area and they're going to be coming into toHn. They'll know ef the Chanhassen Professional Building. They're Being te perhaps see that main signage and yet there's still going to be some question. We just have an interest in being able to be visible from both sides ef the building if you wi. ii. Really for tho different purposes. The front side being the location ef where the Business Health Services is located ill the Chanhassen Hedical Center and on the back side~ the different entrances. I might add that there is not a ~ay in from the lobby area into the Chanhassen Hedical Center en the north. Ahrens: I understand that. ~ohn ~acobson: You eluded that perhaps there should be signage in the lobby area and people could go in that uay~ They can't get to the clinic from that door. Conrad: Anything else Jim? Brian? 8atzli: I assume that, if I remember, Phase '2 the buildings king of tie in and I assume at that point you ~ould ~ant signs up and do~n 'the front and back of Phase 2. The teac buildings tie into one another. Brad Johnson: That's right and it's a retail building. Batzli: Jo Ann, in the report I think you said that you didn't have a problem with the same tenant advertising on both the front and 'the back. That no variance would be required. And no variance would be required Planning Commission Nesting May 2, 1990 - Page ? addiLiona].ly if we approve the 10 signs here correct? Because they're not over the maximum limit? I guess I was kind of looking at this a little big differently I think than Jim and Joan. I ~as picturing this as more o{ a downtown building. More retail like if it was Excelsior it Hould be a cluster of different buildings. ~ach one of them would have their own sign indicating who mas ~n that. Hennessy Trave~ Services. 8eh Srank~in. You knew, Excels Bakery and so Hhen I ~as picturing this, I Has picturing it as i~ this is the type of building ~e were trying te do, we should give them the signs se that's kind o{ hew I Has looking at it and ! don't have a probJ, em with giving them the i0 signs. Ellson: I sat. down and thought of it in terms of if I was the tenant. They could see the sign ils the front and they made the decision that they wanted to go in there. I don't think if they went in the wrong door in the back, number one, they'd only de it one time and they'd probably never make that mistake again. Number two, I think they've made the decision that they're 8oin.g to go in there based on what the front is so I don't think the back needs te have quite as many. Then I thought about, what does my doctor's office have or what does my dentist have and my dentist is right up against a street and he's got it in front but he doesn't have it in back. The 'First time ~ went in there I went ill the wrong door but ever since I've been going into the right door so I can't see that many. I think that the traffic isn't going te be in the back. The people go in the back have decided t. hey're going in there because they're going to park. It's net like a high traffic area that's going 'ho draw people ill unless they're in the apartment building or something like that so I don't see that t. hat side is as important to them as the front street and ~ think the front street can do it adequately without having the back. So that's my comments. Emmings: I looked at this the way Brian did basically. I don't really have anything to add besides that so I'd be comfortable with the i0 myself. A couple other things, comments l'd have is, if this is the Chanhassen Professional Building and if there winds up being 6 major tenants and 15 small ones, it wou~d seem te me you wou~d want that name on the building 8oNewher e. Brad Johnson: It's on the pylon. Emmings: Okay. That's in front. Okay. That takes care of that concern and then the only other concern I'd have is having more than one name on a sign. I'm not real comfortable with that and I don't know if it means that the lettering gets smaller. If you wind up trying 'he ,put 5 people on eno ef those bans. I think it ought to be limited to, it probably should be limited to one tenant per ban. That's all I've got. Erhart.: I think the medical industry has changed significantly and what we used to think of as a professional building years ago or even 10 years ago, today has become much mere competitive and therefore I think today a profeseiona~ building needs that signage 'he attract customers. ~ knew if I so tea dentist and I de. I ge to Mike Leonard over in the building over by Dell Road there and he's having a hard time getting going. There's no signage out there. Planning Commission Hooting Hay~ ~, ~..1990 - Paso 10 o~ al:...,. Johnson: ne s moving. Guess where he's moving? hart' Here? Brad Johnson: Guess ~.~hy he's moving Ellson' Because you promised him a sisn? Brad Johnson' No. He's in a building that does not or hasn't set it up like this. We're recognizing the needs. We also have another dentist movin,.'.3 because of 'that. Erhart: Yeah, I asked him if he was and he hadn't decided yet but anyway, ! t. hink it's rea]. competitive cut there and ~ think they need the signage te get going se I'm in favor ef the signage. Conrad; Okay, thanks Tim. It's real clear to me, ill believe I approved what I see here. Hy memory fads through time. In fact, over 24 hou. rs it fades but ~ do believe that this is ~hat ~ saw and it didn't raise any concerns ~ith me then and it still doesn't because it still looks 'tasteful. I tlliYlk ~ . l [ 's critical in retailing~ and I think as He develop down'toNn Chanhassen, it's just really critical that He give people the signs that drive folks into, that help people get te the right building. It's part of my business. I see it all the time. Signage is extremely important. One~ ~..:e kind of impose the problem on the building. The city imposed it. Still, regardless of whether the City moved it forward or back, I think the building has two fronts and the consumer has the right to find the building, the office that they Hant to go to. I think the signs add some excitement to it. It is, as somebody else said, it is retail space. Zt's more than a professional office building like we're used to. The business has changed. Like Steve, I agree. Z don't think ~e should allob~ multi names on one ban. t don't like that. The only other thin9 that bothers me~ the only other thing that bothers me is what this~ If cur ordinance didn't alleH us to allow 5 front and back signage~ Hall signs~ I Heuld ~ant to revisit the ordinance. It does se ~e can do this and therefore we're not setting a precedent. We are responding tea situation that is justified. At least in my mind is justified so we aren't setting a precedent. Olsen' As long as they're belobJ~ Conracl: The i5~ but we can have, okay. Those are my comments. Any Emmings: I'll move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the sign proposal all. owing 5 signs en the front and 5 signs en the back for a total ef 10 signs and recommend approval ef the site plan amendment with 'Lhe condition 'that there not be more than one business name per sign ban. 8atzl i: Second Emmings moved, Batzli seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the sign proposal 5 signs on the north side and 5 signs on the ?lanning Commission Meeting May 2, 1990 - Page 11 south side for a total of 10 signs for the Chanhassen Medical Center with the condition that there be no more than one business name per sign ban. All voted in favor except Ellson, Wildermuth and Ahrens who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 3. Conrad: Annette, any summary for why you voted against it other than your comrnents? Ellson: No, nothing other than the comments I've had. Conrad: The same? I would imagine the same. Very straight forward. Okay. Motion passes. Goes t.o Council? May 30th? Olsen: I don't know if that's right. It's the Wednesday after... PUBLIC HEARING: NORTHWEST NURSERY LOCATED AT 7801 GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD JUST SOUTH OF LYMAN BOULEVARD: A. WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT FOR THE ALTERING AND FILLING OF A CLASS B WETLAND. B. CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR THE EXPANSION OF THE WHOLESALE NURSERY. 3o Ann Olsen presented the staff report. Chairman Conrad called the public hearing to order. Mark VanHoef: I'd like to show some slides. Obviously all the drawings are a little cumbersome te work with se I thought if I showed some pictures of what we're really looking at that might be somewhat helpful I ¢, .... ~ }-',ave a fe~.~ slides te kind ef compliment Jo Ann's presentation and then I'll make some comments as to some of her etches er sketchings. This is the area 'Lo Lhe south of the entrance which has already been bermed and planting screen of 8 te 10 foot Austrian Pines have been put in. lhe prob].ern tha'k Jo Ann eluded to and some of you remember, we were here last fall. This area right here was the only ditch catch area for any of the water. And when He irrigated the crop, the holding crop that we had in the holding area, that water then would run into this ditch and the only cutlet was to run through a culvert at the beginning ef our driveway onto our neighbor's property, the Finger's property. It created some problems. The Finger's approached us. Ne weren't really in a position we could do anything. We contacted MnDot and at that time were told that that Has the existing drainflem or Haterflo~ and we weren't allowed to make any changes. Se the problem continued until it was brought in front ef the City and HnDet came back out. He worked ~,~ith the City and what was done~ and ~ can shew it. in the next picture. Again, this is net the next picture going down the ditch area but this is the holding area that is behind that wind screen er that planting screen. Here's IH 101 right here and here's the planting screen that goes across the highway so this is the area that plant material was stored on that the water runoff was creating a problem. This is taken early this spring after we did de some grading last fall to alleviate the drain problem. What we really accomplished here is a new Planning Commission Meeting Pla,v 2~ 1990 - Page 12 culvert Has put uric!er our driveHay so all of the runoff now goes into the " d thor than through the culvert under the highway it goes under .~i'tch an ra the culvert and our drive~ay, doHn across the border o~ our property to catch ex~st~ng drainfieId, ditch, creek area, whatever you want to ca.il that goes into the Hetlande. Prior to ue doing that, Hhat the Hater did it Hent across TH 101. Across the neighbor's property. ~ the Hay down and there Has another culvert deHn here~ not en our property but then goes back across the high~ay and into the wet].ands. So ~hat I'n1 pointing out here, .Io Ann mentioned it in her staff presentation. This has all been s~oped to conforrn Hith the standards. The ditch area is in pIace riCH. The ne~ culvert is in. Hhat has yet to be done is a planting screen conifers has to go in this spring and this has to be sodded and this has to be seeded. 8ut from my understanding, Ho'ye had some rains, lhe drain problerr~ does not exist, at ~east coming from our property and 5o ~nn did mention in her Hrite Up that there is drainage going into the neighbors property but that has to do ~ith the .lots above our property to the south. 50 ~ ..... oa~ica].ly Hhat I m pointing out here in these 3 slides is that He'ye been toque, red to recapture and contain ail. our runoff and we've done so~ This is a picture of the shade structure Hhich is not in compliance ~ith the 100 foot setback. ~ made an appea.[ er a pIead er whatever ~ou Hant te call it t.e the Planning Committee last {all pointing out the fact that the shade structure, aithough it ~as not in the 100 foot setback, is stiIi f~4rther back than the permanent house which is on the property and it didn't ~in so this wi]_I be moved and He ~iI~ move that back te~ guess comply Hith the 100 foet setback. Here's another picture of the shade structure. ~ kind of reit Hhen He taiked about the shade structure that peeF)le Here getting the opinion that it Has a permanent type of a structt~re. ~.[ it is, as you can see~ 4 x 4 posts ~ith 2 x 6 supports and snow fencing on t. ep. It is~ again staff's recommendation is that this is moved and shouid ~e comply or ~f ~e're requested to compl, y, this ~e not going to be able to be reused and Hill just be that shade structure and not pu_t up a nell eno. Unfortunately this isn't areaI geed picture but this the expansion area Ho're talking about. This next picture's a little bit better. I de want to correct something that you might have been, ~ guess you might have been rnis, how de I Hant to say this? You might have gotten the ~rong ~dea that our piant~ng area's go~ng to be expanded, t4e are requesting to {inish the ditch area here that ~e inherited when we moved ~.nto the property. ~hen He took ever the property in 1984, en the very end of this was a chicken ceep ~hich He took doHn. Behind the chicken coop there ~as some dead e~s ~hich ~ae a co~iecting place {or chicken paraphernalia. If you've been around an old {arm, it Has a bunch o{ junk. Ne c~eaned that up but unfortunateIF in doing so, ~ guess it exposed th~s ravine that He want to I guess take allay or at least dress up. [de"re net expandJ, ng aItheugh to qualify and corns in front of the City Councii or your planni'ng board, it I guess goes under an expansion but this will net be ut~Iized ~n any facet of our business other than to just improve the appearance, lhie is the ~irst thing that anybody sees in driving to the preper~y and right no~ it's kind ef unsightly. It was unsightiy when we got it. It's unsightly nell and our proposal through the plans are te co~'~'k, ir~ue this slope so it gees all the Hay across but has a graduai sIepe dob,.~n to this lath area or dean to the ~etlands and Hill be seeded and Hill h~e I,~xl _. as just natura.[ vegetation This is the area behind the barn. There's really no questions er problems on this but I did Hant te shell. Plannin,o.' CONNission Meetin8 Hay 2~ ~990 - Pa~e 13 This is the holclin8 area for the crops that ~e do dig out of our fields. 8otb on site and ~.~e are rentin8 property across the street freN 8eh Resers~ a 15 acre piece that Ha're 8reNins and harvestin8 trees. Here's another picture ef the heldins area. This is just a quick shot of sene of our ~roHin~ a.reas~ You~!l notice there are certain areae that cannot be 8town on ~.~lliCh He }-lave just planted sene conifers te held erosion control~ Yhen on the tap ~e are usins~ Hell ~ge de have ,~hat's planned as plantable acres far our crap ~hich is mainly nursery stack trees and shurbs. This is the area behind the barn ~hich is the current area classified as heldinS area~ It ~as desisnated as such on our erisinal plan that He presented and ~.~,as alnprove¢l on~ ~,~e have asked for consideration on expansion of this area because ~e needed additional space for additional shurb' preducts~ This is a picture frON the reverse ansle from the back area loekins te~ards the front~ te~ards the barn. The ~hite area is ~hat you see is ~ust what ~e call a prepasation er over Hinter house ~hich stores nursery material through the ~inter and also acts as a propasation bed ill the early sprins~ !his is the area in question resardin8 the Hetlands behind the property~ There's really t~,,~o sections that He're talkins about. This is the section risht behind the heldinS area that Ha're preposin8 a pond and an expansion. l--,ere'.s another vie~ of that saNe area. The Class ,q Hetlands is tile area behind the heavy vesetatien of Dos~geods and some ~ille~s~ lhe Class 8 ~.~etla¥'lds as desisnated en the NapS~ cones out into the area that has not been No~ed and kind ef mere er less felleHs a contour of the loller sreund~ You cal-i see that on the topography also. There is a step dean ~here 'Chat Class 8 ~etland is easily deterNined~ The Corps ef Army ~nsineers~ ~erry Smith~ did CONe cut and ~alk this site so up 'Ce that point that's the defi'nitien c,f these tho areas that ~.ge have. lhat ~-,~euld be the area far expansion... This is the area that He're talkins about in terms ef plantins trees in. He~,~ i'll ie85 ~,~hen ~e presented cur initial plan ~e had the Namer part ef our property shaded in~ you have a copy of that, as sro~ins area and it Has shaded risht to the Hetlands. Well, ~,e found out last year as e~e ~ere interested in plantins this area and here's another picture ef it~ that this 5 te F acre sesment cannot be planted ,~itheut an approval freN the committee as a part of our expansion. ~ don't quite understand that but ~,~e're here te talk about that expansion. I~Ii say one thing o/-i our behalf. When ~e first approached the Plannin~ Committee and Barb Dacy presented our case~ this area Has cropped and the supportin8 Naterial that she presented ~as an aerial vie~ ef the property and it desisnated and sho~ed that that area Has beins cropped at that tine in alfalfa. Hee~ all ~e're really askins is te have the opportunity to put that back into crap Hhich ~euld be shurbs and fle~erins trees in this area~ liere's ~ guess one other shot. ~his is from the back~ This is fram the ~est leokins east en that sane area that is in that proposed future planting area. And one more pict,.ire ef that sane area. The only other comments I ~L~eSS that I ~.~ould make~ threw this back up here. I just ~anted to sho~ you ~hat the areas that ~e just locked at in those pictures. Asain I said that Nc're talkins about really t.~e different expansions. The first. asain ~.~as that ravine fill and asain I ~ould ~ suess support our reasenins behind that is it's net seins te be an actual expansion ef cur operation bu'L rather al1 improvement te the appearance ef the site. And the toposraphy sho~s both the existin~ and the proposed that that ravine ~oul¢t just be filled ~.~ith either existins fill or additional fill that ~as broush'L in on the site. He plantinSs Hill be dene~ It ~.gill just be~ I Planning Commission Meeting Hay 2, 1°,-90 - Paso 14 guess t. at,(e'r, back t.o the natural vegetation. Right now it looks kind of poor and we'd Iike te address that. The other areas that we're talking about tabling and I 't ~ ' ~ . o l~t want to make sure you understand them is this area here v~hic:h does sho~ as planting on our origina~ approva~ now is not in planting~ does border a Class 8 Hetlande. ~Ve'd like to have the ability to ptl'k haoi~ into crop production. The area that's more of a real tender area is the area back here Hhich would cut some of the Class 8 ~etland. So ~Ann did mention that ~e have had the U.S. Fish and Game out. We have rnent, ioned that you knoll te better the area because right no~ this ~ho!e NeLlands that we are in has no standing ~ater en it. If He Here allegros ' to dig a couple of ponds becau, se of the business He~'Fe in~ He could runoff waLer into that. This whole area behind the barn is a holding area. If k~e're allowed expansien~ that Heuld another holding area for flower and .~hurbs all which could be tiled into this pond se ~e virtually could not only c!i9 and create a pond but because ef our watering practice~ ~e could maintain a ~at. er level in that pond to support a real improvement to the Netland area. The pond that He proposed back in the corner was nothing more than mu. st I guess an aesthetic improvement te that whole area back there and I really~ that's of ne importance to us at all. If that's an infringement en the ~etlands, ~e could take that off the plan but again~ ~,c expansion Heuld be fill the ravine. ~xpand the container area here and t. hen put this area., back into planting. Y~ guess that's al~ m~. have to say unless there's questions. Conrad' Okay, there probably will be later on Mark. Thanks. Are there other public comments? Anything? Is there a motion te close the public hear ing? Emmings moved, Ellson seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. ,Conrad' We'll start down at your end Tim. ;..r,',ar'l:. Jo Ann, a couple times you said that there's been complaints by the neighbors yet in reviewing this, just for my o,~.~n clarification, have we ever received a cemp]_aint fro~l actually more than one neighbor? 01 s: e n ' N o. ~_rha'rt: 0kay, so it's been one neighbor all along. Can you explain, go 'Lhrougl'~ for me again here Hhat are we trying 'he de between this proposed pond on~ the eastern pond and the edge ef the Class 8 ~etland. Olsen: This one? Erhart: Well let's start ~,~ith the other. Let's address this 5 to 7 acres. .that I,,JaS als alfalfa... Ma'rk k. anHoef' For us to plant, ~4e Here going to go ahead and plant that an,:J Y sot. ~1~,o fee~ing that that was being construed as all expansion el~l our p r o o 'c p~ ffl PI. arming Commission Meeting t',. x m lC;O0 - Page 15 ~.rhar can you c:orne up here and show it to us. On the plan it appears to ,me that you're planning on planting down 'Bo the edge of the Class B t,~etland. Hark ?a/q}-Ioef' Right nob~ there is, and you can see on your oontours~ there i~ a}5ot.itl, a ~ ~ ~ -' ,. acre lo~er piece of ground. The one I eluded to tho.~ ~,,~as an 81falls at one tine and Hhen l:~e took over the property we did nothing to. Srhart' Okay, are you under the impression that you cannot plant up to the Class ~% ~Jetland line? Is there a'nybedy under that iNpressien? Mark VanHoef: I am. In fact I'm under the impression that the last time I Nas in front of this beard, that anything else that we do has te cone in '~"['~_)n'k. (,i)'F yOU. k.':.3~ be approved. 01sen: ...not necessarily a wetland alteration permit. What you're snowing up there, you re not 9sins te be 9gin9 into ~hat ~e deterN~.ned... You're making it sound like you're going to be filling in next to the larger pond and then also... Hark VanHoef: Right now that's a nice field 'that we could plant., t~e're overkill right now. ~ mean ~e may net even plant that this year but we had an epport, unity and He ~ere required at our last meeting te get in all our future expectations, wants, desires ena map and that's all area that is net currently being planted and that ~e would like te someday plant so that's p.,lhy iii. '1-~ i.}l the proposal. Erhart: If you could just stay there a Ninute Mark. I guess my question is~ arid maybe this is just a clarification but I don't see where the City has any interest in b~here you plant things. Certainly it bgeuld have an ' interest itl where buildings are and commercial activity is going on in terms ef trucking and things like that but why are He interested in~ as len.:..t as it doesn't get into the wetland. 01sen: Well the expansion of the planting areas and holding areas is an e;<pansl, on of the nursery. ~zxpansion beyond the original conditional use per m i t.. Erhart' b~ell actually it goes back to the original conditional use permit. Hhy did you dra~ a line when you first cane into the thing? Why didn't you Suet say I've 9ct 40 acres I'N going te be planting trees en the whole 40 acres . Mark VanHoef: You know I think Tim has hit it. When we first approached the City back in 1985, He made a mistake of net having a mere concise~ clear picture. ~e Ann's worked with us en that. Unfortunately we were asked to prese¥1t a plan. We had a 40 acre farm that had been not used ill 2 ;,'esr.e. There were renters in there. It ~as a pretty unsightly piece of property and they said, put a proposal and a site plan. ,~nd if yeu'].l :see .s... t~l .__ , : l' ~ ' : 'original site plan, there wash t a lot of thought put into that. There was He're going te hold sene plants here and ~e may hold some plants here and we"re going to plant all the other area.. What has happened is, the City has tried to ,satch and say, well this is just a nebulous plan and new Planning Commission Hooting Hay 2~ 1990 - Page i6 think you're outside that plan. ~rhart: Really what ~.,Je're here today is really doing the first conditional u'se permit? Exactly Srhart.: Okay~ well let's clarify this. In my view of this thing~ you're essen'Liall.¥ taking your whole 40 acres and you can plant en anything that's, as far as I can see. Am I wrong on that? Isn't. that. what it .ts? You can plaint trees anyplace. Olsen: ~,3ell it's whatever you ~gant to permit with the conditional use p e r n', i. t ~ Er}~art: Okay, well let me ask you this. Any document that we're vet. ins on teniglnt, includins his plans and your conditions~ is there anything that says that he can't plant up tea Class 8 ~etland? O].sen: No. What you would be approving tonight is the plan showing planting areas all along there. Erhart.: Nould that satisfy you then in that area? Hark VanHoef: Yes. Nrhart: Okay~ great. That covers that one. Then can you explain to me~ you made some comments about something on your pond er on your proposed pond. Yot.,r propesecl pond. Between that pond and 'the edge ef the Class 8 wetland, you were proposing to plant in there as well? Mark VanHoef: Okay, 'right no~g. Here's your Class A wetland and we're not going to touch that. Here's your Class 8 wetland and our proposal is to put. some kind efa pond area in there. That was en the pictures if you remernh, er~ ttnat was just beyond the Red Twig Dogwood and some ef the 14illows. lhen behind this area here, going back to Hark Keegler's~ his proi~osal a fall age, we showed that we wanted to expand this container growing area into this area Hhich would be right up within 50 feet. of the pond. Erhart: Okay~ but you're not showing that on the plan? Hark VanHoef: That is not shown on the plan, correct. And I'll 'tell you why. Until the pond issue, I guess our feeling is~ if we go ir, anc{ make an improvement to the wetland before we come back and try to take wetlands a~gs.y~ ~.3e'c{ be in a better position. Paul 8urke came out to the site and was reall'/ again.st any alteration of Class 8 wetlands period. I mean that was 'no. No~ I don't even want to talk about it. Then we started talking about what if we put a pond in? Then he started saying, well that would improve the wetlands. Right now there is no standing water. That would improve the wetlands so it's, I don't want to weigh all my cards down..~ Planning Commission Hooting Hay~, n~ i1990 - Page 17 Era:art.: You're not under the impression that you're going to come in a y'~,~c.'-r 'F',--oi~ now a. nd then fill that? Mar k VanHoef: Fi 1 1 the pond? Srha'rt: No~ fil. l in tha'L little... M, ar k VanHoef: No~ our goal is -First to get approval of the pond. I'm not even saying th.at would be done in a year but if we ~ere able to get anproval of the pond, I would feel more comfortable then in coming back and asking for ali extension 'Lo the area behind. Right now~ according to your point~ is 'this area right }]ere which is currently not planted~ can be used for ou.r operation. ~rhart: ~dell everything up to the Class 8 wetland. Everything up to this line. So everything south and east ef this line could be planted the way ~ understand it. I'n'l just saying that I'm just. saying Hark that I doubt that >."o:.~"re going to be able 'ho come in a year from now and propose any fi~ling~ i mean if you're going te do filling~ you. want te do filling~ you should have that in this plan. Olsen: For that Class 8 wetland... Erl-~ar't: If you want to do tha't~ you ought to be proposing that a't this time because you wouldn't have a prayer at another meeting because... ?,i. ght now you're .just proposing an improvement? Hark VanHoef: Correct. Okay. How long do the erosion control measures stay? O!sen' The property is stabilized until there is ground cover. Brhar'L: Okay, is there anything that states that. they have to be reF,~oved at such and such a time? This is kind of a general point that I made previously. Somet. irr~es these things stay in there forever and we end with polluting plastic. Olsen: Right and what is done now, like with other developments is that the developer is required to remove thorn. Before it was kind ef left up 'Lo the City se that's something that we would be doing with a letter ef credit tha'L would guarantee that there would be monies to remove it and if they didn't we could go in and de it. Srhart: Okay. One last issue. I'll let somebody else deal with the shade structure. I'm not completely where it's going but I de have eno other thing and that is~ you want to table the ~etland alteration permit because yOL.~ don't have the contours of the removal of the current. olsen: It's .just not a complete plans for the wetland alteration. Erhart: I guess y question is, you know if you take a look at the Fish and Wildlife recommendations, they're pretty general. It says the slopes ?la'nni_ng Commission Meeting Hay 2~ 1990 - Pa{is 18 should h:,e 1:10 to 1:20. It should be irregular and so forth and so forth. t gu. es:!3 ~ don't kno'~,.J~ I~ don't understand Hhy you need a contour. As Long as the material's taken out ef any ~etland and not. deposited in any ef the k~etland, it~.s pretty obvious Hhen you're done it's either .~ithin that range c:.~? slopes 1:10 te 1:20. ~.nd quite frankly Hhen yeu~re doing that, it's nearl'lx' impossible to construct to a particular plan. ~ .lust think it's a burden for people ~he Hant to improve a Hetland by converting sense (;lass 8 ~et].and to Class ~A ~,~etland by making them go through the e×pense of a contour. In other Herds, surveying it before and then trying to build tea conteur~ i'L just seems like overkill. Olsen' Well the plan that they're giving us nokg we have no t,~ay to, they're sh.o~airl8 one general cros:s section ~here it's .41. feet deep but ~e don't knet,.~ if that's consistently all the t4ay across. I guess I disagree. I believe that ~e do need to see the full contours. The full depth. Where the ! , oep~hs are. ~rhart' Doesn't the inspector go out after~ards and look at it? u..~'sen' I,,Jhat ~,~,ould he kno~ to look for? The Fish and Wildlife Well I t. hink b~,e need to see that on the site. Erhart: ~ust ~.grite a condition that says the slopes have to be i:10 and 1:20. Approximately so many acres in size ~ill be approved. We're in conformance ~.~ith the general plan. I don't know~ let's get the other comments from the other commissioners. ~ just think that's an expense that esse'nkially by doing it here, bls're setting a precedent that anybody that comes in that ~ants to de this, has essentially a complete engineering plan to do that and I just don't think there's anything te be gained by it. I really question ~dhether it's. ~ mean if a guy k~ants to landscape his yard~ do you recluire that? I don't think ~e're talking about that big efa thing. Haybe there's some limit~ What are we talking about? This proposed pond. It's size. An acre? Conrad' Tiff,, ~e do ask every business, ~e ask each business in town to give us a landscape plan. There's a correlation to it. Erhart' Well ~,.~hat if it ~ere a horneo~ner~ is it the same thing? Conrad' No ~e Houldn't. Erha. rt' You're saying the difference here is that this is a business. Conrad" This is a business, yeah. Erhart: Well if that's the issue, then I guess I don't have a problem ~,'ith it;. I guess so much. I still think it's unnecessary but those are my comments. Item 6 and 7, are those contradictory on the conditions or is there another area ~,~here the slope is greater than 3:I? 0n item 6 and 7 it says side slopes adjacent te TH 101 shall net exceed S:l. Then 7 says~ Plann.i. ng Commission Hosting r4a/',~ '~ 1990 - Page 19 ~ood fiber blanket shall be used on slopes 3:1 or greater. That means there's~ other areas that are gofng.~ to be higher slopes? Bigger slop~s~'-~. Olsen: That's kind of one of those general conditions that there are an}' thg. t yOLL have to do that. There might be. I~m not exactly sure what the slope is along. ~ight now there are definitely steeper slopes like where these ~,ood chips are and things like that. The reason we're saying not te exceec! the 3:1 en adjacent te IH 101 is He really want to reduce the '..:,elocity ef the runoff into that ditch and to reduce the runeff~ .It's a little steep right. cTri-',a'rt' ~dhat's the slope on the gully that Mark is fillin i'n? O.~ser,: Do you kno,.,~ what the slope is on where you re filling? ,,art. The finished slope. I I--] .;;;~- Hat k Valqnc~ ¢ ~ have no idea. Probably about 2: I.. Steep ha, L.' Okay so then 7 then okay I thought maybe there ~.,~as some intent not to have any slope over 3'1. Apparently that's not the case~ Right. There's places that aren't being altered. Srhar-L' II7 conclusion I guess, well you know I'm a neighbor of Hark's and quite frankly I've enjoyed having him next t.o us and I certainly haven't experienced problems. I feel a little bit in that like anytime you face the Planning Commission, or the City and the government in any first, t_ime si"L',~a'L~on it's kind of awesome and you make a lot of mi~''~-~,~akes that first t..ime, bJe've worked hard working this thing through. I think this is a 'real excellent plan and ~'d like to commend Both the staff and Mark for c!eing a ]..et ef ~Jerk in the last year in trying to satisfy the neighbor and ! gu. ess the requirements se with that, I'l~ pass it on. Conrad' Thanks Tiff,. Steve. ~rnmings: I guess all I have is I had some doubts about the degree to ~.~hich Northwest Nursery wanted to get all this in shape at one time but I don't a'nyrnore. I t. hink they've done, finally done a whole bunch of things that T ~ish they maybe would have done sooner but it's f~nally come together and i'm feeli, ns pretty magnanimous here. I'm willing to let bygones be bp'genes and .].ook at this objectively. ~ th~nk ~t's a geed pAen. ~llson' I agree with the staff's report 8a-Lzli' .Io Ann~ does not acting on the wetland alteration permit at this time allow the applicant te proceed at all? And if se, does it adversely ~ ~-r-~-. ~ ~-the O.].sen' They are not altering the wetland at all with ~ghat. they're propesilTg. The ordinance requires a wetland alteration permit if you're ,sit. bin a certain amount of feet from a Class A, wetland~ ?]~anning Commission 1'looting Ha:,...,' 2, :I, 990 - Pas6 20 8atzli: Yeah~ but aren't, they proposing a pond within so many feet of the C. lass A wetland? Olsen: That's not being acted on. That's what we're recommending tabling that pond because it's within the Class B wetland and it does require the wet. la'nd alteration permit. So they would not be able to move ahead with that pond or with ally filling of that area they're proposing witheu, t a we~:.la'nd alteration permit.. 8stzli: Okay. Does anything that they're asking for in here or any c:ondit.{ons 'khat we're putting en them, ~eing te be affected by them net settincj the wetland alteration permit at this time other than the pond? Olsen: Ho. Other than the last condition. 8atzli: Okay. Well that was my question was whether we should make them get the wetland alteration permit before doing anything else. c)lse'r',: Well at one point there was discussion about filling in a portion c:.f that weLland for expansion of that holding area~ It wa8 my last understanding with these plans submitted that they were net 8eincj to de that. That the on~y alteration to the wetland was .going te be the pondin.g areas. That's LIp te thorn. If they want a pond~ that's fine. If they don~t~ that's not real].y a requirement for any of the other expansion. 8atzli: Are we, the fourth plan here~ that's future expansion in addition to what they want to de now? Olsen: No. That's~ are you talking the last small one? That's just kind of a blew up of what that section located on TH 101. That's not any different than the other plan. The fourth sheet is a blow up and it's not any differel]t than the other proposed expansions so. 8atzli: You talked ir, the report about future expansion someplace or another. The ultirnate expansion to the nursery on page 10. So you're saying? Olsen: Essentially what I was trying to say is that the plan that they're :~}ho}~in{~ fc:,'r expansion te the nursery has already taken place. That .in addition 'to that~ it's ~ust the plantin~ areas. Certain planting areas. $o real~y what has occurred already is the majority ef their expansion. Datzli: Sc:, by us approving these plans tonight, we're just approving what':s basically what they've already done? Olsen: Essentially, yeah. It's after the fact. 8at}~li: Okay, :so their ultimate expansion isn't reflected on the plan? Olsen: No~ that's on there but they've already expanded most of that. Ne're approving expansion that has already taken place. I tried to point c:,ut ~..Jhere~ the only further expansion will be the future plantin~ areas on the sout'n si. de of the Class A wetland and the proposed alterations in the ? 1. a._ n n i '-, u .... r-':._ o m m i s s i o n M .~,'-.~ ~ t~ ~ i n g Hay~-~ '~, 1990 - Page 21 Class B ~.,euia'r'~d Those a're 'the only two things that haven't occurred as of t.,:::..da>'. But. it's slnown on the plan and it will be approved if this plan is a ppr oved . ..,at-zl~ Okay. If we approve this, then are we tacitly approving the c~onstruct, ion of this pond .in the Class B ~etlands? These ponds? .c..:,lsen: No That s a separate wetland alteration I kept that. separa..~ so no. ! .see what you're getting at. You might want to, yeah I see ~hat you're getting at because it's on the plan. .o ~ li' ou gave ,_.,.a~z Y . a good presentation. Do you understand all the conditions and you. agree with all of them? Mark 'v'anHoef' Most of thern have already been met. In fact there's onl.¥ t.~.,~o that I guess I'd like to discuss with Jo Ann, Everything else has al. ready been done. P-:h'r'ens' Has number 3 been done? ~at"zli' t4ood chips, mulch. Mark VanHoef' No that's, when t read this report, that was the first time that ~,.,as brought to my attention and I just got the report today so. I would only say this that as it reads, it's a little bit misconceiving because it sounds like those ~ood chips are on the border of tine wetland and that is not the case. They are on a hill. The hill goes do~n and the bottom of the hill goes into the wetlands. Batzli: Where are you trying to get him to move the wood chips and mulch ~-',~,",.~ .J o ~ lq r~ ~ Olsen: Well we just want him to get away from that slope because it. is · fal. lin.g down ir, to that area adjacent to the wetland. Essentially all storage areas, that is becoming kind of a storage area~ that has to be ,.s,::::'reer'~ed. It.':s something we can work ~ith him to pull it back away 'from that and hopefully more internal into the site. Satzli' Okay, so you're concerned both about it running dough into the w~uland and also screening? ] '~ ~ ' ~ ~ ~ _,:,~n: Fxactly. And it s filling in Ba-tzli' I think ~e can add that because right now. it's, I think it's kincl of vague as to exactly what you want. My only other question was, if you [)ut too much muracid on a conifer, does it turn yellow? Anyway, go ahead. Nilderrnutl-',: I'm glad to see the drainage issue has been satisfied~ It would appear that if yeu satisfy all 12 of these requirements er at any ',.--ate the ones 'thak_ yoci have to date not satisfied~ that yOU ~ill be ill good compliance with the requirements for the conditienal use permit and I support the staff recornmendation. Planning Oornmiss;Lon Meeting Hay 2~ 1990 - Pa~e 22 Ahrens" Are we expecting all. the conditions to be ~,~et before approval of ~.. I..~ ~,.~ ~. . ,~, .... ...~,con. iLic:,nal kis~ permit excep~ for 1 and 2 that you have specific u~at~---~:~: .luna I ~ 19907 Olsen: Uhat k,~e normally cio with this is that that is a condition and Ne g~.'.Je them a certain. Ne don't usual.Fy set time periods on those but it's something that they have not met that condition. There's always an annual ",~e'v'iel.,~ oF all conditiona~ use permits and it's ach'lathing where we can say you're not in compliance and if they don't go into compliance, then we coulq take him back te possible revocations. It's something that yeah, you could Sust continue and give them a time period en that also. On 3. A In r e n s ' I ' .:t 1 i k e t o s e e a t i m e p e r i o d o n 3. I ' m i n a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e ~...,:::.-Lsff recorr, mendation on this with the addition of a date on ~,. ~ Date for c om r~, 1 i a ncc. ,~.o','-,:'-acl' Okay. The drainage that. we're now moving to the west side of TH 101 is a :self imposed, is drainage from plantings and then we run it deNn to the wetland~ All we've dena is taken a different route. Keep it a~ay -Fro~r~ the neighbors. And what did ~e do to basically ~here it runs Jo ~nn~ i.c ,~nat a grassy area. ts that how we strip any nutrients? Hew are we ..stripping before ~e get to the wetland? Olsen: That's why t. hat one condition that we have in there to end the pond ils this lc, cation because yes, this will be covered with vegetation. Will be lanc!scaped and will have grass and this is the wetland that says... The ,ir.{vewa¥ right here and the ditch. The only area that's always, we have the exposed dirt arid the runoff is up here in the planting areas and that's why we wanted to have that pond ill this location to collec'h that sediment. Conrad: okay, but through allowing this, really that. runoff...!'ve got to believe we would but what I'm 'keying k~ith here is the idea that we're a].].c, wing a nursery. The nursery is watering. The water that goes to the plants also is going into the wetland. It seems like it's harrnf,..ll~ It seems like basically it's more harmful than another use that didn't require Natering. ,A different type of contractor yard as such. k~ilderrnut, h' I guess the question is how much fertilizing is being done? Conrad' Yeah, what kind of 'Fertilizer around your plants? ?-,'la¥'k VanHoef: There are no fertilizers through the water system if that's what your concern is. Any fertilizer is incorporated into the soil. ~ither be it the pots er in balled and burlapped material, that fertilizer k.Jgs done in the 'Fall before it was dug and harvested. So any water rkinoff that. you have, the water runoff that hits the ground is ne different than rain runoff~ that k~ould then go into the ditch. Go down the ditch and into the wetlands. There is no fertilizer runoff. We don't broadcast. ferti].imer over the soil because our crop is not the soil. It's ~ust the nursery stock itself. The nursery stock is either contained in (a) a pot, c.i- ...~b) hailed .... and I)urlapped. The only fertilizer that we incorporate during the season is in the potted material and that would have te leech t. hroush the entire plant into the soil and then into your water system and doubt that that would happen. C:onrad' The plan'tings on the real close to the Class A wetland. If they star,...u,:i ,..,_~ do that. Basically those plantings can be right Lip to the Ne1:.].and c:.a'n"L they? Technically >.'es. Again, if you approve that. Sn-~rn.~r~gs' You can't get to the A because there's B all along there. Olsen' There's Class B around the whole Class A wetland. Conrad ' Okay. .,.c:errnu. th And you have no plans to plant into the B wetland right? ¢"Is:e'n' r-'-~-¢ couldn't, do that without a wetland alteration Conrad: I guess really where I'm trying to get to is just that, we have a ~.~etland and there's no reason we should be screwing it up. Period. ,4th:mol. ute. There's just I thilnk the applicant has done~ I think you've done a nice Sob of responding to what the City has asked you to do and the · neighbors. I just want to make su. re, and I'm real concerned about the ~et. land alteration permit. As long as you improve it, that's what Ho're try~.ng to do. If ~.~e can improve anything~ that's exactly what we're try:lng to tlc te our wetlands in Chanhassen. Se there's ne reason te make them dimin[~sh in value. Especially in this particular parcel. There's just no reason so just a signal from me, the wetland alteration permit process is an int~'iguing one to me because I really don't ~ant any harmful th~.ng to happen to t..hese wetlands. I see ne reason for it. There's no .justification. I think you can de your business ~itheut really harming these but I want to make sure the right controls are in precess~ Here's a good case ~here zero degregation to the ~etland is fine. I don't mind you altering some contours and I think you've routed the water the right, way hut I just, I don't want te use wetlands as a solution to some ef tine problems that are part. ef the business. They're not the solution te your business problems. They're something that we're .lust trying to protect and t. hey happen te be en your property. I think I agree with Joan's comment on ti. m6 on the third one I think. I tlnink that makes sense en the third point. The only ether thing that I would suggest is~ how de He monitor pau!~ this process? The conditional use process. When Hou.[.d somebody make an on-site inspection te see what's going eh? You're probably out there ,ali. the time anyway but. Krau. ss' Act'..ually this one we get a phone calls on and we do check them per';o,:Jically. We have instituted an annual inspection of all conditional use permihs. In fact, 5harmin A1-Ja{¢, our planner eno is sitting here tonight and she's in charge of that. So there is an annual rotation where ~...Je do go around te check every condition ef these conditional use permits. In addition, where there's a program such as this one where there are, is an expectation 'that conditions ~ill be complied with in the near future Planning Commiss.i. on Hooting Hay 23 19-0,0 - Page 24 relative to s co'nstruction program, ,,ge'il go out there as soon as their y', ,'- '1- ' ' ' .:';.'.C .... s~ri...~ci3;i.o¥1 .ectivity is done or ~,~hile it s underb~ay to make sure that zt's N.eing coNpleted as per your approval. Conrad: Oka;:.'. So when this wetland alteration permit comes back, at least l"r,.t:,!'r~ rr:y perspective~ I really would like staff te be reviewing. You know i'm going te be real critical of ~¢hat that says. I think we owe the t~Je'tlands the protection and if that's how it's conteured~ if that's ,:J'r'.~:-~.ina.ge ditches, whatever it is I think we eb~e that to the wetland and treat, the ~,.;etland just as a solution to some drainage problems because I do'.-~'k, believe that's b~hat I'm trying te do b~ith wetlands. ,qnyway~ the hal. anco other than the wetland alteration permit, the balance of the staff 'r .~'~ F' o r t 1 o o k s f i n e t o m e. I s t h e r e a m o t i o n ? 8atzli: I move that the Planning Commission recommends approval of '.?ondit~onal Use Permit ~85-~ as sho~n on the plans dated April 2, l?eo with t. he follo~.,~ing conditions 1 thru 12 as written in the staff report. Humber 3 !4ou].d be amended to read, wood chips/mulch shall be removed from the area adSacent to the wetlands to an area where runoff from the same shall net adv.s~,rs.:~].¥ affect the wetlands and shall be contained and screened by a fence. ~Re~,~eval of the wood chips/mulch shall occur by net later than, any sk~g.~est.~ol-!e from you two? date agreed to by staff. Ahrens' .Tune 1, 19907 Olsen' It. would be nice if we kept all those the same date. atz.li' Okay, ~une 1, 1990 Er~ar~.. t4hat's a reasonable time Mark? !'.!.~.:~rk Vanl-loef' ~ell it would be nice if we could, that's all been piled there for' ;~,..,~e. By the middle of the summer it will be gone through sales. NoN i,.,e've takerl delivery ef that and will prebaby last 2 weeks. Had I krlown that was a problem, I mean that's hew we operated all last year. 1.4e ,:.?,::.':.old oas.fly relocated that pile somewhere else. r.':hrer'.s' Well with the trucks ~.,oving in and out all summer until the middle oF. the summer, how much of the wood chips is going to move into the ~.~etl b>' 1:.' - n a t. t i m e ? Hark VanHoef: The only thing that moves close to the pile would be a 8obcat. front end loader that scoops up 'the chips and then brings it back and loads the truck behind that pile area. Se if the runoff is a cencern~ ~e can clean up the runoff after the course ef our season. Erhart' I think the co'ncern is the chips floating into the~ ~ith the heavy ~-.~-;~ i n t. tn e c h :[ p s w a s h .[ n g d o w n i n t o t h e b~ e t l a n d. c)lsen' They're also enter into trees. There are some trees there that are st. art';r~g to get filled around. ,:.., :,~.:~.~'t. I'~ ~.,.;ould be convenient for you to get i~ out of there by rr, i,::!-sun-,rr~e'r. Also, I guess we're not talking about toxics here. E."-,aLT. l i: Let's make it August 1, 1990. Number 12 would be amended to read, s't the end of that sentence before the period, prior to creation of the proposed pond site set {orth on the plans, ~ait a minute. Yeah, that reads right. Okay. So the who~e th~ng wou~d read, the app~icant sha~ receive and comply with all conditions of the ~etland alteration permit prior te creation of the proposed pond site set forth on the p~ans. Another sentence, approval of the conditional use plan is not an approval ef the proposed ponds and Z'd a~so propose a number 13, condition 13 ~.~hioh reads 'no plantin{is, storage or other disturbance of the Class ~ or Class 8 ~c-tland sha].l, be permitted w~thotit application or receipt of ail proper ~.,..~et. 1 a nd perrriits. Co'nYad' ~.~ there a second? ~.,Ji 1 cle'r rout h ' Seconcl. Conrad' Any discussion? Erhart: Yeah. If we're moving the sood chips away from the wetland, why then does it have to be screened ~ith a fence? D.~d you mean that to be one o'r t..he other Jo ~r,n? Let's say it's way back on the south side of the pr.;'~pert, y away from the ~etlands. Olse'n' One of the condit, ions, the general conditions is that, specific con,t.{tions fo'r a ~.~holesale nursery '~' ~ that all outdoor storage n'lust be s c ~,- e e 'FI e d . Trhart' Okay, so are you talking about la'ndscape screening here or are you. t. ali<in?ii about, maybe ~'m misinterpretting this. You're talking abc, ut ].a,~d~- - ~,--o,~. ~'~,~. screening as opposed to a screen that would hold the chips in? O].s.sn' ,Right. Somehow it has to be screened. 8atzli' P~nd properly screened rather than screened by a fence~ Srhart' Okay, if that s what it is, let's jusu clarify that. Conrad: See a fence could be mo're objectionable than the wood chips themselves. ~rnmin~,.:,o~-" Screened from what? The vie~ on TH 101 or from the neighbor? O.l.:se.n' t,~e].l yeah. That's t4here if they locate it Hhere it cannot be seen frorn other areas, we'd let. that go. =-"ha-rt',.:_~ 8ut aren't we putting a screen along all of TH 101 now? Olsen' Not along the north side. Where it is right now, it is very v.~siDl.?.' ' . We have had complaints about it and so it needs to be moved'Da~"_; k away from that where it isn't visible. We were saying a fence is if they Plannil~s CONNiSSiOn Heetin8 ,~..;anted tc:, rr~o'.,/e it. back just frorn that location and keep it there so it. is c e is t a .{. n e d. O~onrad: If it stays there~ Hhat is the screening solutien? It is a fence? O].sen: Nel]. k~e ~,,~ould k¢ant soNething to centain it so it's net as the 8oh, c,a'k.s co~-i'~e in Conrad; So are ~e talking, is it a visual thing that ~e~re talking about or i.s it a physical? 01sen: Beth. It depends em ~ohere they relecate it. Krhart: Can ~t be located to the south side ef the preperty? Hark VanHeef: Yes~ It can be relocated. Srhart: Okay, b~ould that selve the ~hole prebleN? 01sen: P~s long as it's not visual {rom the surreundin8 preperties. S~'h..7~_~-t: Okay. bOhy don't b~e .just specify that any Hood chip sterage has te be en tNe seutherly pert. ion ef the property. Tn~r~-:f. ng:s: Let's let bin put it ~here he b~ants te. ~llsen: And Nc'il toork it out t~ith staff. I{ them say it's ekay~ fine b~.t t,.~e den't have te tell bin t,~here the specifics are. Erhart: Nell I read this te mean that he has to put a {ence as a screen. 0]~?en: b,le].A k~e Neant screen, I'm sorry. ~{rhart.: That ~.,~as prebablM my Nistake. 01zen: Nell it says by a ~ence. T'r-hart.: !t says by a ~ence, I guess I have like Ladd~ I have a problem Hith fences. E;e'nrad: I'N glad you breught that. up because some selutiens t~ith fences de~-~'t solve it. ~rha'r-t: [,Jell 8rian, yeu knoll Hhere ~e're going there. De you have sene k f.n.t of a... Conrad: I don't, think, de ~oe need te amend that? 8atzli: Hell rather than say screened bM a fence, lust say preper.[y s<3r ee ned. ~l!son: To the appreval of sta{f. P]ann.{.ng Commission Heetin9 1990 - Page 27 8atzli.' kJhat she said. That. sounds good. 8atzli moved, Niidermuth seconded that the P!anning Comm£ss£on recommend approval of Conditiona! Use Permit ~85-~ as shown on the p~ans dated Apri! 2, ~990 ~th the fo~ow~ng conditions: .i. The applicant shall redirect runoff from the nursery by using Alternat3ive ~2 sheb~n on the drainage plans as shob~n on Sheet 4 of t_he plans dated o,:., te,nb~, 27, 1989 and approved by HnDot and the City Engineer by June 1, leeO. 2. T'he applicant shall remove the existing non-conforming s}'iade and p].antil-'~gs structure by June 1~ leeO~ The ~,.~oo.:':~ chips/mu. Ich shall be removed from the area adjacent to the ~,¢et~ands to an area ~here runoff from the same shall not adversely affect the ~.,~etlands and shall be contained and properly screened as approved b'? staff. Removal of the ~4ood chips/mulch shall occur by not later than ,~ugust ~, 1990. 4. The. applicant shall submit for approval a revised grading plan reflecting the recent site grading and proposed improvements. .5. The applicant shall construct a sediment pond along the south side of th.--~ drive~ay per Alternative ~2 and modify the outlet pipe to ' ~ or~i.n into the TH 101 ditch. Side slopes adjacent to TH lO1 shall not exceed ?. 1,4ood fiber blanket shall be used on slopes 3:1 or greater. 8. Catch basins shall be installed on the drive~.~ay ,.to convey runoff into t h e d i t c h, The applicant shall obtain and complyh ~ith all permits required from th,3 perhinent agencies, i.e. Watershed District, MnDot and Hinnesota DNR. !0. The applicant, shall provide a letter of credit as determined by the city F_ngineer and Planning Director to insure the drainage improvements, proposed landscaping and erosion control measures are comp I eted. 11. All erosion control shall be Type III, maintained and removed at the reqNest of the City Engineer. 12. The applicant shall receive and comply ~ith all conditions of the l.,~et].s, nd alteration permit prior to creation ef the proposed pond site set forth on the plans. ~pproval ef the conditional use plan is not an approval of the proposed ponds. 13. No F)].anti¥'lgS, storage or other disturbance of the Class ~ or Class 8 P!ann.i.n.g Oommi:~sion Hooting ~da>.' 2, 1990 - Page 28 ~..,...,etlar, d shall be permitted Hithout application or receipt of all proper ~,.~ e'ls 1 a n d p e r m i t s. Ail voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC HEARING: PHT CORPORATION, ON PROPERTY ZONED IOP AND LOCATED AT 1500 PARK ROAD: A. REPLAT OF LOTS 1 AND 2, BLOCK !, CHANHASSEN LAKES BUSINESS PARK 5TH ADDITION INTO ONE LOT. SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR 45~900 SQUARE FOOT EXPANSION TO THE EXISTING FACILITY. Paul l.(rauss presented the staff report.. Chairman Conrad called the public hearing to order. Conrad: The applicants are here I see. Would you like to sho~ Lis some iz, i,cLures? Sho~J us b~hat you're doing. ?'4a'r'k Huge: We've been looking at the site plan. con'r',~.~.o. An.s ).,',:~;ur name just for tile record. Hark Huge: I'm Hark Huse ~4ith Amcon Corporation... As Paul ~4as saying, this {_s the site plan. Zt shells lust a concept for future expansion. ~ust s possibility. We're not askin9 {or approval o{ this concept tonight. 8y our estimation, the wetland Paul is talking about is in approximateJ,.y this location here. And He'll ~ork out the details of hoH that...around that. ~4hen the c~4ner decides to expand on his property. This is a perspective o'~ the building sho~4ing you from the intersection. These are the elevations that you have in the packets. It's shown a little bit better here. Ne"re i'ni':.'roducing a spando type system. Curtain walled at the corner. Working ~.4ith the client, eno of our primary concerns ~as to put a building en this corner that Hill give the prominence to that corner that it deserves and hence the 2 stories Hhich is also one of the reasons b~hy u~e need te expand future parking onto the site to the north. He could have...at this time t,~it.h a single story building. The second floor is te be largely unused at this time. There Has a real concern that. we have a 2 story building en this corner site te give it prominence that it requires. I do have a grading plan. That's not all that clear. The grading plan is also in your packet. Todd Christoferson is here u~ith our fir[~ and he's in charge ef the c:o'nstrnction and ~e de have a representative from PHI Corporation Hho'd be Hilling te answer any questions about the operation of their ceff~pany~ Conrad: Okay, good. Thanks. This is a public hearing. We'll open it up for ar~y othe'r public comment. Is there any? Emmings moved, Ahrens seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing Nas closed. ~.~- .i ~ 'n n .i n g ~.. o m rr~ i s s i o n H e e t i n g Ha;,' 2', ~.egO. --pa<~e~, .. ~9 X'].]. ~ust open it up in general rather than going down the any qu. estions of the applicants or staff on the presentation? Wilderrnuth: If you took the square footage of the second floor out~ ho~,g ~'i'!any parking places would be needed? Do we know? Krauss: I believe there was 84 for the new addition so I would cut it in hal~. I think the space distribution relative to office/industrial .~as about the same frorrl floor to floor. t,i:%].deYn'~uth: $o we'd be roughly at the required number of parking stalls 't. he second floor isn't, occupied? Is that correct? Conrad: Nha'L's your thinking Jim? What are you getting at? I. ai.l. derrr~ut~h: Well I'm just wondering whether or not how soon he's going to hsv..s to put the extra parking te the north of the proposed building. ~rhsr~:: ! looked at the site today. I don't see, looking at the site, how you could ever put another building and these additional parking spaces in the area to the north of ~he proposed building. It Suet doesn't look right. and as a result, visually it tells rne that they just ought to incorporate that ].et, at least the ~,~estern part of that let into this let~ I'm net ?:~ngsesting that they have te build parking lot but take an area ~there ~ really question whether you could put another building in plus an additional~ b~hat is it, 44 slots and then go through all this rigamaro~l with the easements. ~lim, did you have that same feeling? Krauss: Commissioner ~rhart, I looked at the property to the north. ' There's a lot ef land in that parcel that extends from A, udubon all the ~ay e',,,'er to Park Court. ~ have a Lot of concerns about that concept that's k:,ei'r'~ shown. It's showing two additional buildings. I think one would be chore SF.~propriate. Srhart: Which one? You mean the one over... Krauss: Well either one. The one to the west starts to have grade prob].ems because you start ~etting up into that wooded slope, lhe one te the ea:~;t has ~etland problems so it's probably, you know you put square footage, you put them both together, you come up ~,~ith eno building. 8u.t that wasn"k really the issLle before us tonight. I'm confident that the parking can be accemn:edated there and that's really the issue for me en this plan. Nrhart: O'n t. his concept, where's the parking for those two buildings? I don't see that on there. Krauss: Nell again, we did not do a corr, putation~ They didn't have to '../erifM for us that there's sufficient parking for those buildings. They're goi',qg t.o have to prove that. when they come the time comes you can certainly ask them. g rSornmission Meetirig 1990 - Page ~0 ?'.{r~u:'3:::.:' ¢'~ncJ there's a permanent liability with this site. This site's caf'tying a liability of 64 stalls. ~r'c , .... ,~:~-,'-{'... bJhdt~'wer ,~ ,..it seems like we're going through a lot. of Hickey ?douse K'r-auss~ It's a little bit.. I guess it relates t.o the o~nership situation t..hat~s been established by the property owner and his future plans, b!e're corn{ort, ah:.].e ~,~e can work it out this way. It's a few more hoops ~..o Sump thr,:):..~y~l"~ k:L~t ~.~e~ve done it before. Conrad' Any other comments? the entrance/exit off of Audubon Road an entrance only? K'rauss' No~ it. is not. It's an entrance only for trucks. ~ll'son: Trucks have to exit one ~4ay. r, rauss Right. Trucks have to manuever through this site in one c! i r e,c t i o n. 8akx].i' Do k~e l,Jant it t.o be an entrance only for everyone? h..'-~'a,.xss: There really is no need for that ~e don't believe a'L this point. At some point, in the future there may be a median down Audubon Road at which t~me it ~,.~ou~d obviously just be a r~ght-~n/right-eut only but at thio point, in time ~e didn't see there was a need to limit c,~-at-.~._].i. ' IF, there was a median there , hok~ ~4ould trucks gee~ back to ~-he.~ · L. ruck doc:k? They'd be facing the wrong way ~ouldn't they? They'd have to c;ome i n Par k Road? Krau. ss: They'd have to approach from the north on Audubon. I'm sorry, they'd have to come up from the south on Audubon. Z'd have to add th!at the rnec!ian is not something that ~e see being built tomorrow. It's just as tra1:f?.l,:?, levels continue to build, at some point in the future it'd be something that they'd probably have to look at. Satzl~' 8ut since you had the concern about Audubon Road, you. r concern with the traffic was to the south of Park Road? i'-, r au:ss ¢ _.S Batzli' $o you clon't care if cars go in and out on Audubon? 1'..4o. The traffic levels again, it was somewhat surprising to us to it. but the traffic levels that the model was showing were roughly c-,omF~.o'!--ab].e for Park Road and ~udubon north of Park Road. .... ~t_z].i bJell it. just seems ~4ith the angle of that road the cars are g,-c,i, ng. ',...,._,' be facJ. ng.._ the [4tong ~qay if they're going to be trying to go north C' 13 ~ ti J ~ (.~ LJ D 0 'FI . Planning Commission Meeting ~-4. a¥ 2, 11990 - Page 311 The illustration is somewhat deceiving Commissioner Batzli. There :~-;,..~,'Ffic:ier'~t room a-L the neck of that drive for the car to be pex'pendicular te ~uduben before it enters out onto the street. sat'z] i: .T-.ven .if a truck is corning from the north to turn around it into t. he... Krauss: Yes. 8atz!i: I'll take your word for it. It doesn't look like it on the C .:-.:, 'q ',,'" a d: A 'n y t h .~. n g e 1 s e ? P~hre;"~s: I l-~ave a question about the landscaping plan. You have here that you're recommending that the applicant provide four 8-12 foot high Douglas Nits to hide the loading docks. That doesn't seem te me to be adequate te hide ].carling docks. Krau~ss: ~4ell I think you have to take the perspective of what we're trying to achieve here. The ]_carling docks are someuhat concealed in these ]ocstions. On the other side of the building. Right now you can see aero, ss here to a point. On this side it's corning up and yen start hittil~ig trees but you have a direct line of sight here. Nhat we're proposing is that the trees be added here. That ~ould screen kind of the direct view .i'r~tc, the site. 1,4e're assuming that as this property develeps~ that b.~'nate~xer we do over there is going to provide additional screening. That thi?.: becomes something of an internal... With the trees clustered right i-!e~-e~ u~.{.~], screen the direct view of that loading area. ~hrens: So you think that 4 trees are going to screen that area? K'?auss: That's about all you can fit in that space. C:c,'nrad: Anything else? Is there a motion? R!ilderNuth: I'll move that the Planning Commission recommend approval Sit. e Plan ~86-3 and Subdivision ~90-6~ Preliminary Plat for PHT Corporation ~...,ithout va~-iances subject to the fe~lob~ing conditions 1 thru 8 and subdivision conditions 1 thru S. son: T'll second it. Wildermuth moved, Ellson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Site Plan ~86-3 and Subdivision ~90-6 Preliminary Plat for PMT Corporation without variances subject to the following conditions: .'.'.. H:,/AC equipment shall be screened by a parapet wall or by a screen wall. c:o'nstru~c:ted of materials compatible with the building exterior. All exterior trash dumpsters shall be screened by a masonry enclosure constructed ou.t of rnaterials compatible with the principal structure. The entire building must be provided ~ith fire sprinklers. ?lanning Coinmission Meeting Hay 2~ 1990- Page 32 2. Modify the si. to plan t.o provide a 30 foot wide drive onto Audubon Road '~,.Jhile maintaining alignment ~,,ith the HcGlynn's driveway. Pest "truck entrance" signs en the Audubon Road curb cut and an "exit" sign on the eastern park Road curb cut. .nrovide revised plans to illustrate the feasibility of constructing the 64 nroo'f of parking stalls as eutlfned in the staff report, lhese stalls shall be constructed by the owner upon request by the City at. such time that the City determines there to be a parking shortfall. 4.. Devise the grading plan to limit fill over the watermain along Audubon ~oad to a maximum depth of ~ feet. Provide an erosion control plan 'for a ppr ova 1 . The storm sewer extension along Audubon Road and the north side of the site shall be built to city standards and conveyed to the City for rnaintenance upon completion. ~ development agreement is required. Watershed District approval is required. Revise plans to provide two additional fire hydrants as direct, ed by t. he ,~ity Fi re Marshall. Revise the landscaping plans to add 'four 8'-12' high Douglas Firs in the northwestern corner of the site te screen the loading decks. F<elocate landscape material to avoid placement over the city watermain. .q landscape bond is required prior to the issuance of any building n e r m i t s c ~ $ i~ -~ :~- ~...~ plan approval is contingent upon the filing of the final plat. and Subdivision Conditions: Provide the following easements: .. ~ --~ 1! exterior property standard drainage and utility ea~e~n,=nt over a ].. i nos. Reconfirm the location of drainage and utility easements along the western and northern sides of the site to cover in place and proposed uti 1 tries. c. Concurrently, provide a permanently recorded easement over Lot 4, 81ock 1, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 5th ~dditien, ru. nning in favor of the City for access and parking of up te 64 parking stalls. The easement should be worded so that it cannel be vacated without the written approval of the City of Chanhassen. d .: .... ~,xff is further recommending that no building permits be issued until the plat and all required easements have been recorded. Provide als acceptable final plat. ssion b!eeting Page 3:3 :3. Sl'-,t'.er into a development agreement with the City. A.!! voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC HEARING' ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTIONS 20-30 AND 20-903 OF THE CITY CODE PERTAINING TO RECORDING OF PERMITS AND ZONING LOTS. F-'a',..~.;. Krauss presented t. he staff report. Con':-ad: Tell me the process, going back to the first one Paul. Recording F;e'rn',its or conditional use permits or k.,hatever. Plow does that work? So you ,:;yet a conditional use permit. Ge through the process that somebody WOL!].d roi. low to get this recorded and tell me hew it's controlled. I still ,::!ol-,'t understand. If we approve the conditional, take it from the point that t. he City Council approves it, tell me what happens. Nr'a.'..~.ss: b. le get. a City Council. resolution that says that on such and such a date t. he City Council authorized it subject te these conditions and it's signed by the Hayer. Ne would then have that filed down against the property at the County. ,.Conra,i' So Chanhassen would? Krauss' b3ell we tried in the past.. Conrad' No, tell me the net, J. KraL,~ss: Nell what we'd like to do is first, of all lay it out in the o'~'dina!'~ce that, ~ mean right now State law does require these things but our o'r'cJ~.nance doesn't mention it. In the past when we've tried 'to do it.~ ~.,..,,~ c.;,ftentimes get there after the fact and we don't have, and I'm terrible ,::::,n what kind of proeprty is which, if it's Torrens property but we don't have the title certificate. Ne don't have all the e~ners complying down there wihh us to sign off to say that they're willing to have this pledged against their property. So ~e're saying the applicant's going to have to do it and shew us that they did it er else the permit's invalid~ Con':'a,'q' c,o t,,ey have to show you that they did it. Now how do they .... , ':<.'ra~ss: kJell we can get a copy of the recorded document that J..s given to t. he. County. Conrad: $o you're going to do that every time. Is there a little system you_ set up? Every time there's a variance or a conditional use~ that you set L,p a tickler system that eno month from now they have te prove that they did it? Otherwise the City sends... Krauss' Or if there's a building permit relative to that. requ. est~ the h..d:i.?..d:i.n(~ permit ~4on't be issued until they've demonstrated it. ,.o 1 ~.-':_~ ,,a n ~. n g C o m m i s s .t o n 1',-'I e e t i n g ~',~::~',,', ,~-~ ~ J. 990 - Page 34 C.'on~'d.~ Well is that what you're using to monitor it? I./ ill be, yes. Co'r,rac" ?.o it's not really a tickler system to make sure they did it? You're waiting for an activity. A building permit. O].sen' f, omet. irnes it's not a building permit associated and that's when we woul,J use the. ac co t. hexe is a system. I guess l'n', just curious what the systerr, is u,,a .. you re going to set up to rnon~tox this ,-..: au~:~:~: ~,ere will be a system that_ does that. In the past what's happened ~s by the time we ge~ these resolutions together and get them .stigned, a month maybe two months has passed. By the t~me our secretary gets to take it do~n to the County maybe another couple of months has passed. By that ~ime the th~ng's up and running. It's long gone ox the ,::',w',',ers:~.,.~on't cooperate. We've had very poor success in getting these tl'~,'ngs: 'recor._~s~u after the facL. ~rhaxt.' ...you can't get the document... ~-.,auss: b..u have t-o have the ownsrs compliance and you need the title ' ~' the perm ' Why not wait for C,orira. d .,.~hy isskie it until it s recorded then? the Hayor to sisn elf until it's recorded? l,:'~-a,..!s?:' Ihat~s in fact. what we're sayin8 here. Right now there's nethin~ in city ordinances that has that requirement. ~e~re proposins that that be Conrad' Okay. That's my only question. Srhart' What does the County ~ecorder think about this? Krauss" They've actually been fairly cooperative. ~rnmings' They can charge you a fee. Krauss The Hennepin County Recorder even though ~t~te law requires that t'-- ~ , H~nnepln County Recorder ~ee thinss be fileN asainst the property the ' e ' has refused and has refused since the law was chansed. Nrhart' When you're talkins about an ~bstract which is a lesal sized d o c u m e n t. ~rnmings' They don't have to do anything with the Abstract Hhatsoever. ANrens' No~ it doesn't have anything to do with the Abstract. They just take ~l-,e permit do~n to the County and either they file it Hith the County ,:.~e~s Office o~ the RegisLra~ of Titles Office depending on wha~ kind --~ ~ 'r,d it i.s Planning Commission b!eeting I.,'i~'}.y 2, J. 990 .- Page 35 ~'r-h.~rt..' C)kay, bu't. ~Je're talking about both dra~ings and legal descxJ, pt. ions 'r ]~ g h t. ? Ahrens' T'ney ca'n only file a document against K~-.aus:~' [t.'s t. he conditions. KT-h,~.'rt' So it's not a dra~in9? N . ~'r'ho.~S.: ~'F ~.~e'~e ~a~k~ng 8. bou~ ~ng a cond~t~ona~ use permit., ,::{'~-a,:.~ngs a~.s such. Z'm unde~ the ~mp~ess~on th~u you ~e go.[n:g to b ~.~a~k~ng do~,~n the're t,~$th a b~g set of O].:s,er-~' ~'t:.'s a ~-eso].ulsion that refers ~o plans da2ed. . ..r!nart.. Okay, so it's not the dra~ings? Ah~-ens' .It. jLISt shob~s U.p aS a little entry. E~-ha~t: Tine entry that sho~s up in you~ ~bstract? Sn~m~.ngs: It. ~11 after they're brought up to date. ~rha~t..' Like an easement? ~immJ..ngs: Yeah. It gives notice to the pe~son~ if they're inlseres't, ed prope~-ty, that there have been some limitations placed on his t~opert, y some z~pprovals granted and if they ~ant more information, than they have come to t. lne City and look at the documents. Erl-',art: Okay. ~e're not talking about stapel~ng a whole enclxcopedia? i. ngs: Oh no. ~hrens' All you'd have to do is make a phone call t.o the County to ~-fi the... Emrni. ngs' 14ell this is dynamite because this stuf~ doesn't ex,.st ~"c ~:sn't. ~ecorded at the courthouse, it doesn't exist. Bs-t~li' Ho~ long does it take to record something at the County? ?'(~-~uss' ~ t~hink it depends on ~hat time of the yea~ you. get Ahre'ns' It's instanteous. You hand it over to them and the date o~ record.ins i.s the date they accept it. ~5rhart.' And you get it back ~ithin a ~rnm~.ng~;' Is 'klnaiz ~lnat you mean? That isn't ~hat ~ thought you meant is g Commission Hooting 1990--, Page 36 8a?.z.].-i' Hc)~,~' long is that. going to delay people in getting the stamped copy thak .it's been recorded back? We've heard that it can be as long as 2 to 3 weeks at peak -?..imes~ Ahrens' To get what? !','.r.{~:...~?;s' To get.. them to go through their stack of things they're supposed · i.. - ! .....-..: ce ~-ecording and to actually get it recorded. ?,.hrens' Well they actually record it right away. You just don't find out that they record it for several weeks. that's t,~hat we need the verification. K'~-suss' In fact that's been one of the problems ~n the past is that we've s;ubrni, t.t. ed things for recording and 3 weeks later we find out that for serne :' .:}.' s t~-.' o ii i t c o u ]. d n ' t b e r e c o r d e d. Ah:-e'.ns' Yeah but generally you car, call down there and they'll give you a oo~umel~t number i. mmediately That document number for the recording mean I do that in Hennepin County and in Hennepin County they deal with a lot more documer~ts than Carver County. ~ mean you can get document numbers i q'.,'-,ed.{ ately. '~..._, .:.' :-~-: .... o. n ' I n H e n i] e p .[n C o Lln t y . P':hrens: It's true, you can. You don't get the documents back if it's to':-rens property because they keep all the original documents so you lust make a phone call. It's very easy. They charge $10.00 I think te record it.. ~.T'hart: Is there anyway, concern it's a legitimate one if you're doing a cc}ndition or a variance or whatever you're trying to get started here aP, d ali. of a eucJden you, before they can get started you're asking for proof ',':.h~:'k :'Lt got recorded. It's conceiveable that the process could get a month long or longer delayed-depending on, you're talking about an erdinanee~ you ~'re probabl, y go.tng to need a place 1:or eternity. _Tf the thing got to be ::::, [,J',.? e k s . Ahrens' That ~ould b.e the exception. That just is not, I mean that's not ei]oi..!gh ' '~ o~ a ¢:oncern to be worried about. 8a. tz!i' Getting approval from the City is already such a slow process~ ...~u,~.w~ a couple ef weeks For instance, the worse case scenario woul. d be t'he person's going te de something~ some temporary interim use and it takes 2 L~.~e,:s,k-::m te talk te staff. A week to get en our agenda. A couple more ~.,Jeek:-'s te ge te City Council. A couple more Hooks to get you recorded. ?,','~-aus~' In addition, if it's anything that requires building~ they hav'e ,?..:eL.,eral ~.geeks of after submitting their building plans before they're able t.:') ~pu].~ a o..ii~d.i, ng permit anyway. Plannir~g Commission Meeting Hay~_o, leo,O. . - Page ...,°F - ._1 · \/ · ,2 ,::) }-, ?' .~.¢. ~..~ Nr'~.~:~t-.. el'se? .4n;thing else? Is there a motion© E'r-hart-.' I rr~ove that the Planning Commission recorr, mends approval of the i,..?,ni/"~g Orc~incnce Amendment amending Sectio~ 20-30, Recording Perrnits, C: 0 .... I ~. ~ ,,oi ioned upon reviming the ordinance as follows and using the words th.et the s~Laf-r' has used in the repor~ The 3 conditions 3 requirements gue:~:3. And then also include Hith that, recommend that the Planning Cc~mrnis..{~ion also approves Section 20-903, Zoning Lets as ~ritten on the attached amendment. Con/-ad' Ts there a second? ~llson: c ~,econd ~Thart moved, Ellson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Zoning Ordinance Amendment amending Section 20-30, Recording Permits, conditioned upon revising the ordinance as follows: The ordinance be drafted in su. ch a ,.~ay that it is clear that the apl~licant, for the approval has the responsibility for recording the permit and for providing proof of recording to the City. permits related to the activity nor the activity itself shall be in.{t]ate,.i until the approval and conditions have been recerded. The ordinance also be designed to apply to interim use permits~ Also recommending approval of Section 20-903, Zoning Lots, as ~ritten on the attached amendment. All voted in favor and the motion carried. BUSINESS FRINGE DISTRICT, STATUS, BACKGROUND PAPER, DISCUSSION. ~-'aL~-,~.,. ,,'¢'-auss, presented the staff report on this item ,r~anks Paul for kicking it off, Tirn k, hy don't you jump in kle'].], let. you kind of steer the balance of the meeting, as hard as that's goi_ng to be 'for us. Tr}-,ar't: I'rr, confusec{. I'm confused about Hoon Valley and the 9ravel ,~t-~:~_n{.?. ,Ho,:_~n Valley isn't in the 8F district no~? No it isn't. It's in the A-2 district and mining operations are $. conditional use or no~ an interim use in the .4-2 district. I mean your argument to say that that's a disadvantage because no~; this~ the conversion of the ,4-2 is a disadvantage because no!.~ this and mining could be put into this area. I mean there's a ~hole there that's in the ,4-2. The whole stretch is in the ,4-2 district t. hat.~s a real minor disadvantage. I ~as just Nonderin~ if ~,~e ~4ere tof~ether on that. I ~.~as wondering if I misunderstood but I don't so~ ?]arming Commission Meeting dC~, I'm going to interrupt What's your vision© Start ~ith yo,,r ',.,,]l,3ion ,toNsil there. A long tern] vision. Is it really restoration back te the natural? Is that it. Tim? T~"h~a'~.'!7.~ Yeah. That's rny next point~ I think that's right~ And I feel that by converting it. te A-2, ~e will freeze it today. It just bothers me immensely u-~ith that vision to see us look at ne~ things going deun~ Ne~ commercial thin~s doHn there. That is just opposed te that vision and ~.~i.].].[ng to ~4a.{.t 30 years te Get there because I think in the next 30 years that. the events that you talked about are Going to happen. Either self induced by closing the operation. Again, this is assuming it's an A-2 or sen'~eone~s going t.o come alen8~ either someone's going te co.me along and say ~,~e ~.e. nt this operation out of there. So.meone~s going to come a~ong and put the .junkyard out of operation. It's probably going to be the State ef Hi'nneseta. t,~rauss' I haven't been able to verify it yet but I understand the Fish and lzildl_ife rna>' have negotiated so.nothing ,~here the fella has a life estate er ,,s~:~ ag}eeo te sell at sene point ~hen he retires. Srh.?.r!:.~ I think if ~,~e freeze it and show concretely that the City's not interested in developing that area~ that it ~ill eventually revert back ...une. r .~x*~{ induced or through sene other externa~ factor back to a natural area.. Conrad: (4hat I keep searching for in that philosophy is a real proactive .?t'.;;~r, ce like not only ~aiting for things to go a~ay but I think the action is~ you're saying He'll do it via zoning so ~e kind of restrict ~hat's going o'n and I keep thinkin8~ ~.~e].l geez. Do ~e ~ant it to he a park? Do uge .just simply ~ant it to exist that ~ay? Erh.a_'~'-i:.' Maybe it's a two stage process. Right nell let's freeze it. Stage ~. i he Park and Rec to.meg in er the State comes in or ~ish and~ e he'/ can come ~1-1 and they can somehob~ eliminate those uses. C:or~rad' But I wish ~e had a goal. You know I ~ish it was this vision that :said not .just preserving and you knob~ I like that but for se,me point. For .some direction. Sr hat i-.. · ,'--,5 par k, Conrad' If it was a park. If .~e felt that that was great park. property c~,.~.u.~n ,..here~ than ~'d feel comfortable to ge a particular route but I don't have the v'.e l~ion right ~'r-hart.' [ae].l I have that vision. I have that vision that it's a se.mi- ~_oub.1-;c, semi-private park v~here .maybe a fe,~ more ho.roes. You know the ho.roes on the bluff are 8reat. That's a ~ood use. Beautiful spots up there~ Hay'be come down the bluff a bit but ~enerally there's a lot of gark ~oin8 c.~o..~n t.r~at, river ~ith horse trails and all kinds of useful things that are .~r,~-opriat. e-for that. Right today I'm just trying to be practical. Step ,::,.~qe is to stop t. he development. Then if so.nothing comes along, there's r,,c, ne'y to make it ~nto a park~ that's step tmo but today ~e~re seeing this P.l. ann,ir'~g Comrnission Hooting Nay 2, 1990 - Page 39 ~!,::.:,~ Do you realize that today after all the work we did in the last year an.:i a half, that another, remember the utility storage facility that we ].cc, keri a-t abeL.it, a year and a half ago in here? De~n in the valley that ~qe were all so appa]..ied and in fact the City o1: Chaska calco in and said please .::]or,'-L So this to us. Do you realize that they could come back today and put t_.hat in under a temporary use? o-,t~-l~.;~ ..~_..-i. ~ne quy. who was going to have the big poles? The utility poles? Crh~rt.' Yeah. Vie had eliminated it one time when we eliminated co'.itract'.or',.s yarc.,~s but 'now we ve reverted. That guy could come back in uJ2[th that proposa.i again today under a temporary use permit. It makes rne ?; 5. c k. . ~ " the ,....o',",'~ ~ci Nhy aJid we regect it? Didn't we reject it. because of ' i.s ~.~ uct. ien? approved it and for some reason it never got built. Conrad' Oh we did approve it? T'-rl-,art..' Su. re we did. We had to. t4e approved it. Olsen' I don't recall that. Nas that when Steve was here? ~c'r',~-~rt.' Remember the gu}' was going to have the big trucks coming in there? ~...,.~..~.oe, muth He Nas going to build a big bridge across the creek? cUrhart: No, it was another one down by the pickle factory. Right below Cha..:_-'~l-<a's development u.p on that hill. This b~as a real industrial use. The Cj~..J}/ WaS ].N Hopkins and he Nanted to move out here. I{ I remember right, t,.~e approved ~rl]mi' ~o' . n~..~ No, I don't think so don't think we approved it. E!..rhar'k' Oh okay. But anyway. Let me address the points related t.o this. ~, ....... was my vision was to someday keep that preserve that as an open space area. 8y the same token, I {eel by going to an A'-2, there probably is sene ;'.'~"oiaerties there that ~e are taking and they are e~ed some compensation for it. ?,ly c, pinien, I think that's ~6orthHhile. The gain is worth,hale con:~;i, dering that in this proposal. Now obviously there's a price. Z don't !('now what the price is. Our attorneys and their attorneys would have te :...~-;it do~n and come up ~th what, if they fee~ there's a taking, ~'m more than welcome to come back and say hey, you're downzening my property and it'.s (,,~ort:.',~ this much and Ne ought to go threL~gh the process to see if ~e can come te an agreement with them. I think it's worth it, going through that.. T'm not afraid. Z don't th~nk t,~e ought to be afraid of the taki. ng ~ 'aSL!e . Let's adoress it. Take it on. Go forward. Yeah ~-l,:l;,',.q ffl U C ~l ? "' ~,o you want? ~n my opinion this is worth ? .!...a n in i n g C o m m i s s i. o n H e e t i n g Hay' 2, 19.°,0 -'- Page 40 Contact: And therefore, would you send this issue to the Park and Rec Cornmissi. on right now to say Park and Rec, do you think this is a C:hanhass.sn, a site for a park? E"t-h.~.~.¥"'L: I don't t_hink we have to do that. today. Conrad: But boy, to justify what you're just saying you sure do. ~ilson: Because if the Park and Rec is behind that being a good place for ,oar k. Conrad: You've slot. to know where you want to go. Frhart: Nhat's going to happen if we zone this A-2, the property o~.~ners as Paul states, it can't be agricultural. They can say that. was a taking. Th.':~y'].]. 'File a claim against the City that says hey you're taking and so ~et's say the p~opert, y owner has 5 acres o~ land and his property is worth do~4n t. he~e today oh I don't know. I'll just pull a number out. ~5,000.00 an ac're. Okay, and he's go~ 5 acres. Tha~ $25,000.00 his property is ~.,.¢ort. h so nov~ ~e convert ~b ~o ~-2 and you o~a~m tha~ his property is ,c,n!>,' ~.gort. h $3,000.00 an acre so ~t's a ¢2,000.00 an ac~e di¢¢exence t~mes 5 acres ~s $10,000.00. [ don't th~nk you're ~a~king abou~ m~lL~ons of do!!,srs here. You're talking about, there's not tha~ much ~and we're t.e.!king about and ~'Ll be~L you, the va~ue boday ~sn'~ very much...so th~s p~o¢~erty is not going fox the $50,000.00 a squaTe fcc& ~t. is ~n do~,.¢nt, own Ch.anhassen. ~ be~eve ~b's barely above the ~eve~ of ~nd~v~dual properties that you'd put a home on so Z don'~ th~nk ~e'xe talking about that rnuch roche>,. So ~ ~h.i. nk our being scared off because there's a taking issue, may be ~'rc:,ng but ; be~eve ~t's overblown ~n our m~nds. Z don't th~nk v~+.'re adv.'.~x,.rse].y affecting ~he property ~ha~ much by doing that. And Bhat.'s got t:.o be a Council dec~sion. ~ t.h~nk ¢~om a PLanning dec~sion, we ought to pursue ~ and see ~f ~b ~s ~ha~ much. Conrad: But to make it worthwhile, I go back. Your vision is a park. 8atzli' Open space. Your vision is open space. ~rhart.:' Yeah, really it's open space. Not a park. l"-,, .-, .L -.r - , ~ _~¢,,u=.li I don't picture it as a mowed ballfield This is natural bluff Conracl: As a taxpayer ~ould you 9o in and to buy out those businesses that are there, you're just going to buy them out, you're geing te spend hundreds of thousands ef dollars. Erhart.: [dhy cio you have to buy them out? natzli' T. wouldn't buy out those existing businesses right there. Right T';' .> W . Planning CornmJ. ssJ. on Meeting ;- ,..e .,....' ._~ J. 990 --- Page 41 ;::',--¢,,~,rt' You ~.Joutd respond to someone ~.gho says you have devalued by property and then argue about heb~ much and then sett~e it. ;f yeLL think it's 're .... '.-~ r',-,',"~r~e" ~,n;/ idea what the property valuation is clown there Paul or ...,o~ Ann? ~..,. ~:-...h~::~ No. Some of those properties have been for sale for a long time and i.t's tough t:.o find uses for them. Sene eT these uses are already nen- ,~:,:)r~formirlg arid therefore, conceiveab~y the Super~merica doesn't have va.rue to, ].cee. It's already non-conforming so you're not doing anything t.o ~.. ~ .,. ~ .... :~.~ ~::,lready zoned A-2 but there is a significant cost I think that s going t..o be involved. These things at,aMs escalate a ~hole let more than you e',~en ~..~ou].d anticipate. ~ appreciate Chairman kadd's comments about having a ~:ioal. Hark Noegler and I ~gere ~4erking on the CoMp Plan yesterday and i,~ere t.a~king about this area and I asked hin~ to sho~4 the area south ef the high~,~ay as park. Particularly, all those non-BF areas right, no~ ~here commercial areas are sho~n, I said sho~ it as park because ~e don't sckno~.~ledge that those uses have any long term presence anyway. 8ut I think ~t ~.nvolves the park board. I think it involves other agencies teo~ U.s. Fish and Wildlife Hhich ~ants to operate the sanctuary en the other ....... ~.,e. ~ th.ink it involves the City Council This may he something that .nat s the route you ~ant to go~ is best discussed~ Ho'ye started a session format ~ith the City Council. We've had a couple of them so far s'nd they're infernal sessions where the cameras aren't running. Where ~.net e s not a great number of citizens wanting te be heard. Where there s an c:,i::~port, unity te kick things around informally and what you may ~ant te de i:~}; ~.~.}.ve this scheduled for one of those meetings and you can have sene nL.~L, iVeS {rom Planning Co,Mission, Park Board a~d the Council sit ','- e F,'r' ese ...... d,o~-~n and discuss it's ramifications. Because ~ think it is going to ~'' c: o s: [ ! y . From lo.gal fees? Kra,,:ss' t:Jell I've already had owners who were in the BF district In fe¢-~' I ':",ad ...e .long meeting ~4ith Patr.[ck Blood, the garbage folks e4he got approval.. c:,f the building and then was withdrawn. Whatever the story was on that. L ~ '~ ,-,e ~.4.¢.::'~ ,_~>'J.n~ to rna. rke~ the property for commercial use no~. They have, for~;~et what they told me they paid for it but they've since, they've c].ea~e,u up the property and they've had it on the market for quite a peri. od .. ~ (..:,~ time. I mean they're going to be able to demonstrate a significant.. i ~au].d have to believe. Srh, ar'k.' HoH many acres was it? don't know. Conrad: It. was quite hart' 20° ~atx].i' I t. hink they had 10. ,--.uanning Commissioln Meeting Conrad' Yeah, it was 10 or 15. :T'/ha"rt' Llhat do you think they paid an acre? K'rat..~.s,.~;' Oh, I b~ouldn't hazard 'Lo guess. r'.~,~,,~z~.'ngs' Do you kno~4 ~4hat they re asking? Buy it Erhart. Con'rac{' There's a solution. Frhart' Well anyone who would pay more than three grand an acre. K',-au:-'~s: t4ell in fact they asked to be notified to be present so they could kick it.. around with you and I told them that I wanted the Planning cor',',,:rti:~.-sior~ to discuss it informally amongst themselves and then we k.~oul, d notify all the property owners. But I've got to believe they're going to k,~.? ah:,],e 'Lo dernonst, rate a significant financial loss and that they acquired the property o'n a good faith basis and at the time they could have done ,som.st.h;[ng k.~it.h it. Nob~ that gets into a legal issue and maybe we can get a~ay with that. ~a'tz-zli' But we don't know because we don't know the numbers. We don't know wha'L they bought it for. E'I l.son' Right. Nat7.1i: That's why what we're talking about today is to give you direction to do further research and we don't knew whether it will be costly or not. It misht be. It might net be but until we start looking at what are these people buying the property for down there, bJhat is it being offered for. kl'na!:..'e the 8verage selling price per acre down there. We don't know. K~,-a,..is:.-'~ r~: .... h, but the way to find out though is a fairly comprehensive and ..,,,,.~u.a].ly cost'.].y study where when you want to acquire property you hire ~.~m~.~,,,,~j a, ppraisers to go and do research and find out what the values are. -.:.at. zli Ue 're not to that stage but it would be easy to cai]., you know or t..-;, '.:.al k to some real estate people to find out what it's selling for down F',:-hart' Go down to the County and you can find out what the guy paid for the property. Emrnings' Ask somebody like A1 Klingelhutz. What is his property or Brad. Sl.ls,on' You're just saying kind of informally check it out or whatever. Conrad: Let's get some consensus on the direction here. Is it the c;onsensL~:3 o'F the Planning Commission that we ~ould like that property nat:.~r..s..] st some point in the next 50 years and therefore te zone it se that ~"eail'? it ~4euld be an agricultural zone? Is it worth the first step from s:taff t.o look at the cost efa dewnzoning to ~-27 Or is somebody more ng Commission Meeting 1990 - Paso 48 ]'nterest. ed in pursuing another one of the alternatives that staff has 'r' e c£ O rl'i m e n d e d ? Trni'nings' Can I ask a question? Coril-ad' Yes . Emrr.,.{ngs' If we're talking about a bluff protection ordinance which I ,...~il-~k ~e].]. I certainly think is important I think everybody does 8ut ~....'.~':~!~.. are ~e callin~ the bluff? Con'fad' b,le:l], call your bluff~ ..... ~ .... ~ I guess I see the bluff ~s o~. a who!y separate action that t.,Je ,.3 0 ,.i'~ ~i }/ 0/.J - ~ . pr-'-h' gh~ to go ahead with irregardless of what we do with ~hat's ?.he ~mmincjs' 8ut if ~e put in, we're going to have to define the area that the bluff and is this area that's down there, 8,~ noH, would that be outside the bluff zone? Krauss' Co'nceiveably parts of it would not be. You know when you look at F~roperty ].ike .$orenson's where he's even at 80 'Foot high cliffs, ~ mean used to be the bluff. trmmi'ngs' It seems to me the bluff area could well go right down to the h 1~_ o ht.,ay I-C'r.:~-:,'t.~SS' In some places. Tmmings: I think applying this existing use idea to the bluff zone is a pretty good one and as far as what I'd like to see in that area, I think it ought te be an open space area. It ~ould be nice~ I don't have any problem with a~[~ricu].tural activities down in that area. If there's somebody down th, ere ~xho's get a cornfield they've been planting~ that seems perfectly c. on~oat[.h].e and fine to me. 8ut other than that~ I think it ought te be kept ss natural as possible. It ought to be just~ and uses will be found in the future for it. I have no doubt about it~ Whether it's trails er ....... ee I think that's a tough posture to follow Let's say it comes that it's .going to cost Chanhassen $300,000.00 or $400,000.00~ And they you ask, we want that for a horse trail. Co'r'~r~ eah Would you rather spend that money on a horse trail or on a ?.rail system. People on Lake Lucy will say they ~ant it on there. :::ln'~n'~ings' Rlho's the guy who always says, we don't look at the eonomics. Planning Commission Meeting !'."'.cy 2., .I990 .... Page 44 Conrac!: You're absolutely right. I'm just trying to be a real practical person in this case. Have we lined up the Park and Rec? Have we lined up City Council? Do they really care? Would they rather spend their money ,:::,'~"~ th,'is is:sue than on other issues? As much as ! buy, it's a visual~ You x.,c,~ the way Tim s giving it, it's visual fox aesthetics. We ~ust want ~o look at that area. We don't want to use it and if we had a cise, then I th~nk ~,Je could s-tart lining folks up to say~ hey it's worth the money. But ~,,:hat it is is just saying hey we don't like how it looks and we just want to drive through that part of town and see that it looks really pretty because it's a bluff. I think that's... ~rnrnings: I don't think so. I think what Tim is saying, and I think I ag'~'ee ~,~it.h it., is what we do know is we don't want it devel, oped. Maybe ?.hs.t's: enough said right now. We don't want te see developments going in there that's going te make, if ~e're all kind ef for having it opera s?ace> for God's sat.'.e~ let's net be putting development in there. 8atzli: Y view that as, it's a natural resource ~ust as the wetlands, the natural tree cover, the other amenities ef this community. That's a natural area that is a unique geological formation through this part of Minnesota~ The bluff. And it's net just visual contamination. It is the preservation o'{-' a natural area ~ithin the City that I think has just as much right to be ,::,retected as a wetland. Conrad: Does the bluff run right down to the highway? I never considered cc, e area the bluff K'r-auss' Bluff line ordinances are typically tied into the percent, of !!r.v,. .... ~--~. Where it exceeds that percent of grade you re in the bluff pro'kectien area and where it doesn't, you're not.. ~n',~r. il-,ge' That'd be one thing to do would be to define that on a map 'For ~:o we can see what the hock k'e're talking about. Krauss' Can I throw something else into the mix here? Over the years ! ~'..~,e.~ -For the past 15 years been driving past that thing. You always ~.~,o~.-~der abou. t the seminary and what that can be used {or and we continue to :~.~',,c: inquiries about bed and breakfast and you know hotels and restaurants a~s,c{ those sorts of things. I"ve never tried to dissuade anybody {rom ' "i'ng into it further I mean it's a very complicated thing to do. ~he bui].ding v~on~t fa~Z do~n. Z mean we~ve Zooked at condemning it. Zt~s still very solid amazingly enough but i.t"s got some historical signif~cance snd J.'F somebody actually puts a project together that wou~d ~nvo~ve ~t~s restoration and use for something~ the question is~ is that something you wou].d encourage even ~n ~ght of this discussion? Yea h Erhsrt' That'd be alright ~¢ith me. sure ~ould Well you have a whole list of permitted uses in the A--2 district.. P!.a'nning Comrr, ission Meeting I,~.-. .... 1990 - Page 45 :~:~'~-s~.~:::,.'..s:' We].]. I would think if anything happened to the hotel, we'd have to _1 ::.:,c:, :[.t ~r~:5~ a PUD because it's really a one off situation.., conrad' .loan, ~ghat do you think? Where do you want to go on this one? Ahre~'~s: I don't know, to tell you the truth. I think that protecting the bluffs is a great idea. I don't know how to define it either. I don't knot,., at what cost. I mean I think we should protect it. I don't know. I t. hink that Nors study has to go into what land is down there. Hhat's 'v'a!Ltab]~e arid what we should protect. Ni!derrnuth: Downzoning to A-2 I don't think is the answer because there are too many other uses that can go in there. [ think somehow we've got to f'Fee:.:e i.t. Hitheut running into these taking issues. At least {er a time look at it. The envy ~ay to take ~t out ef circulation ~s te buy it {er a par k. CCh'Fac!' Could you put a park down there? Right off of 169. t,. ~. !~ -~-' - u~-rnuth Probably not Call it an arboretum or something~ park's an unfortunate choice of words. I think it's rnore space. ~It's preserved area. Wtlcle:rmuth' It's not picnic tables and ball diamoncls. 8s~tzli' Yeah. It's not that kind of a park. Kradss: That's t. rue but the park board has expressed an interest in bluff line preservation and their plan does state that there are areas worthy protection as open space. If you're going to go that route, I'd really encourage you to sit down. ~ppoint a couple of people to talk te the Park 8card and then having all of you go talk to the City Council at one of these work sessions se there can be sene concurrence on which way to ..... ,rninoo Why don't we just find out frON the City Council if w.~"re even c:,n a tr-ack that they're even interested in? Wi].dermLtl-,' I think they're looking at us to propose the track though. Conrad: If ~e don't have a clear vision, I don't know that we can get, them go~.ng SONS direction. If we said this is what we want, then I think they' cot. J].d reac:t to ~t and we could get, and that's what ~'m trying to get is as much definition and I'm kind of worried that just a passive vacant land is sc, Nothing that they're going to jump on the bandwagon for. Ahren:s: Is it envisioned that the City would own all of that land along ~.. d '~) .1~ I ..... ,?a ~5 :.:, ;. -~ i..~i%;'l' c_, : who else would want it? Pl,anning Comrnission Meeting ~4,:.:~:," ? J990 - Page 46 Co',.'~-'.~sd: Ne could get the State. the State or the City. It would all be publically? Bu.t why e o~ n i t ? Emmi'ngs: 1.4ith the existing use zoning, the people who own it now could continue to ,0'¢~/1 it and they can sell it and the use is going t,o have to open land? ~mmi'ngs: Yeah. That's ~hy the existing use zoning is kind of interesting ~11 e ,:11; S I,,J S e . L!il. dermuth: But the thing is, how do you get rid of what's already there? Ernmings: bJell that's another problem think that's what we're trying to do is get }'id of what's there. S'rhsrt: Nc'ye got to be careful here. We're not getting rid of everything. ~4e're not getting rid of the individual homes. ~n'~rnings: No, they can stay. 8atzlix You'd be freezing it and preserving it as it is today and .?>ventual]y if the City mants to purchase some of the stuff and restore it~ that's fine. Ahre'ns: But there's nothing to prevent like Moon Valley from expanding? l<',-.~nue.,:u: b~el.L Moon Valley expansion though we've got that other ordinance t. hat's going to get second reading next week and that hopefully will give us a leg U,p on that. For the National 6Jildlife Refuge though, all I've ever heard that they're interested in is the south side of the highway~ They're not interested in the other side so it would have to be~ look at what we're doing is adding onto what they're cloing~ l<rauss: But also, if existing use zoning is used down there, you're goin~s~ t.o ..sire some legitimacy t.o those uses that are now outside the BF district and not nora non-conforming. The junkyard for one. Ernrnin(js: Yeah, but you said that's already been taken care of some other Nay . l:iraLlss: L4ell, I heard a rumor to that effect.. Ernn',ings: Yeah, but here's the thing. Look, if you've got a big area of ].and and you've got some uses here and there that we don't like~ I see ,.,,.~.~'~.-e doing is preventing there being any more of those by freezing development there or by doing existing use zoning and then if you want t.o ~,:::, in and clean those up, you've got a variety perhaps of tools to use to ?la'nnil-18 Commission Nesting I'~y 2~ .1.990 - Ps. se 47 s,:-, t. hat. Condemnation being one of thorn. h.'rz:uss: Yeah, but I think you've increased the cost. The mote.]., on the south side by the ]unkyard ~s not outside ef the 8S distr~ct as is Super p':m.:%rica. They're non-conforming uses. If we have a tornado that comes cJc:.t...sr.., the river ~./a].!ey this summer and they're b~iped out, they can't be rebuilt. I ~.,.~ould assume that existing use zoning, although it's net been defj/'~ed yet~ would allo~ the restoration efa perrflitted existing use~ '.:3at;z!i' If ~.le do existing use in the A-2 and not just in the BF down t her e . E'rnming:s' Well ~e'll have to be careful t.o take those things into account ~- - ... ~ I- d L.. ,:,..~;f thin:, t. he goal ~s to try and freeze development and then you can p, ~'' i'n the ' ~ t ., ' . oe~:.t hing b,e can to try and get rid o~ ~hat s there If the goal. · ., ~ ..... ' . {.s:~ ,-,,~.~n space. ~ don~t kno~ ~hF open space zsn~t~ I don~t understand u, hy open space isn't a legitimate goal. Conrad' Y like it. ~:~n~,:zns.~. I t..hink you do but I don't kno~ ~hy you don't think it ~.4ill sell. It's the cost Ernming:.:::' But it sells to Tim and me and Brian. a,..~ Because you haven't seen the cost. Hill. it sell to you if your taxes are going to go up? ;::l.at'.xli' I ~ould pay more taxes to buy that land do,~n there. Con'r'.d~d: But if it ~as for ].et's say $300,000.00-$500,000.00, I could make =: terrific community asset some other place in town. I coNld buy Moon Valley and turn that into a recreational facility that you wouldn't be].ieve. I could. Ernrnings' You can't because we ~on't let you do that on a bluff. ,......,nr.~ .~ m just saying, is it worth it. just can't imagine ho~ it could be $300,000.00. K'raus:s: I think it k;ould be that easy but really, it's going to be much more than that. I don't ~ant to dissuade you from your vision because it's; one: T -Find .aornekJhat attractive myself but I think you've really got, I mean this i~ not in the theoretical realm anymore. If you're actually thinking o'f doing it, I really believe and ~ould strongly urge you to try to 0~ork together ~ith the Park Board and the City Council to first see if you can Nave some uninimity of visioR. If you can't, you Night as b~ell drop C,a'nrad' Does the Park Board have any vision? If ~e sent this to them, 14h.at's t. he <'chance that they ~ould really take this to heart? ,~re they ssion Hooting Page 48 ~ . ' sorest [~1 ng Em.rnin?e I have another question Why haven't they alreaoy done ........ ~ t? Well even putting a park on the bluff A passive park I think t4ou].d be real~y full to do. Krauss: They have talked about, and I'm not an expert on the Park Board and the Park 8card ef course has just changed somewhat significantly but ~....lhe'n I ~Jae at their meeting last, looking at your comprehensive plan~ brought up the fact that we hadn't called en any protection for the bluff line ~hich they'd like te see. They've also had a long term goal ef having a trail corridor a~ong the 8luff Creek ~hich we had a~ways intended te sho~.~ bu-t it ~4asn"~. sho~.gn~ net the entire length of it anyway~ ~asn't sheen on the plan. So they have an interest and ~hat that depth of interest .~ ':~ins e ~.een P--.+'-~'].~' I think there's one or two members on the Park Board now who would be interested in folZowing up on what we're talking about. ~ ' ~ .~ like a cmrr, inSs This seem~ more planning and zoning i.eo~.oue to me than a ?ark i:..esue. ~. don't know. conrad: But they're in charge of park. Yeah, Nut I'm not talking about a park. Conrad" You re not? So then we don t give it to them If yell thought. n'ti. sht be a. park, then we give it to them and they tell us ,~hat they think~ F..rnmings: If ~e zone the whole thing so that no more development occurs~ if the'/ want to come in later and put in parks here and there, I don't care. l:~'"~al:'e fine. It seems compatible and everything else but I don't eeo ~hy w,:%~ need park and rec... ~rhart: L.,Jhat Paul is saying, I agree with him. We're talking about selling this to the City Council. I'll tell you, my feeling is that the city Council hasn't, thought about this a whole let. I think some ef us h.~ve some strong feelings about it and I do believe there are so~,~e people o'~-: the park now starting to think about it. I think ~ith working toc_3ether t.~:ith them ~,~e can sell the idea to the Council. Number one~ when you number one is you get their attention. Number two, then once you've {lot them ].is-Lenin~ try to convince and today ~e haven't even hit number one and I think we need to do that. If ~e believe that we ought to do ?emethil~g.~ than I think ~e ought to try to sell it to them. I think u~e car'. do it .{f we work together with the park. Liri~mlnBs' tout I think what Ladd is saying is it's, b~e don't even have enough of a vision to take the first step at this point. Is that k, hat you ~F,~.rl,,.'''?. I mean I don't agree with you. ~..~1. ....... ,~nn.ing Cc, mm{ssion Hosting Ha,'::x 2, ~990- Page 49 I m just saying the passive use and just open space is probabl'? · qot .as se.tlable as if we said it should be a major, if we had something of q:ub:7.-:t, ance beyond that.. T;at.:.;~"!i' He need I think a larger goal before we do more research t.o get to more concrete vision. Personally. ~...~,*', ..... ~, sc!' So.. ~,~hat would you like to do~. Nell isn't the goal to stop anything from happening right ~on'r'ad' .... You know the number one issue, well I guess it's not number one. .:. ,,.,,~ .t..{ke zoning for something rather than against so Z ~ike the line of o,.ar conversation because it's saying what do we want to use that., space 'for. Xt hasn't been, even though it's the bottom line, it's contrary te ~,..~hat 'S t' - ne~e. Basically ~hat you're all saying is~ He don't ~ant anything i ~ oeN'n tne~ e. So from a p~ann~ng standpoint ~e do not b~ant any commercial uses oo,.,~n en that. high,day. That's ~hat everybody's saying and noH~ ~ ..... s 'she case~ then we can start zoning against commercia~ uses and 4 ~ [.. eo'n t ,,.now how te co that. If it's State recommended or ~hatever but I think that's lust one abso[u, te step. Ne don't Hant commercial_ uses there because Ne have a different direction for that property and the stronger t. OSt direction is, the more the chance ~e're going te get that zoned that ~,av The way we want it So one, everybody is saying no commercial use~ dot4n there. Let's get rid of it. Last time I Has here ~hen Me put the z-o'n:{: in ..[us;t simply to try to control ~4hat Me'ye got and we didn't de vet':: ..... q~¢oo .lob through the course of time. ~e did a bad Sob So consensus ~,.;e don't want commercial do~n there. No~ the question is, what do we want? T,~ 4- ~' ~ ........ ~., at it? E{mmi'ngs' ~.dhat do you mean is that it? C,:::nr;.~d' No~.4 we've got to give staff direction to come back and help us on this: one. kle don't want commercial. It may be interim agricultural but certainly... Emmings' See I can conceive of commercial uses down there. Horse rental. Ernn'~ings' Oh no. Don't ever mention horses around me. But the idea of the ..!;~ern~nary heir~g converted into a bed and breakfast or a hotel type thing. il I ~ , '.',~L. c'.,oe~n t bother me. Conrad' You can do that in agricultural though can't you? Kra~.~ss' [deli. again we've got the PUD so... ..T.1.1s,.on' b, le cou].d do it b~ith an Alternate 2, make it BN or whatever you wa nt. Err, rqi'ngs' I 'd like to think of some commercial uses that would be nice down ~.n.¢, e ~..~e,:..;uu,~e the ].and is so beautiful so it might be a place a person ~,~c,L.~l,''~' w~nt to come to se-~ Not a Super 8 Hote~ p, hrens' That's 'not a bed and breakfast? :2onrad: Don't you. like the little motel down there? I think that little mote], is kind of neat. na~ t' bJhi_.n one, that yellob~ one? Conrad' Yeah. The transient deal. 5rh<..~.-t' Oh~ the little cabins? ~...onr ac Yeah E'rnrni'ngs' I'd like to find out this, who stays there. Ahrens' 3ohn and 3ane Doe. Co'n'rad' Okay folks what do you want to do? Ah:"ens' b]ell tell him what we don't not want. To leave it alone. ?o,,~,nds ].ike~ at ].east Steve is saying that there could be commercial uses q- ~_~ ,L:, b~ 1'] Ill h e 1' e . But he doesn't have any good examples. Ahrens' How about a golf driving range. Ernrr,.ings: I think it ought to be open space. ;-:rauss: 3o Ann and I were just talking that it may be possible. ! don't. like all the districts that we have in town but it might result in a new al{strict. Conceiveably you could come up with some sort of an open space conservancy district, that had as permitted uses agricultural uses and :?ingle family homes. It would make everything non-conforming down there~ Svery commercial use non-conforming but you might allow bed and breakfast <.:,-~- k.~hatever else you want to do with some uses that are compatible with that district specifically. I think we can be creative in that way but i stf 1.1 go back to my original thought that I think you really need to get z~:.-;:,P;~.e uninemity of opinion on this thing. I think~ the City Council's alsc, raised the same concern. You know you're not alone in that and the Park ~:.::::,.~r.::~ has tc;,o in terms of what to do down there. I'm pretty comfortable that. if you all put your heads together and think of exactly ~hat you ~ant 1!: to become and t~hat would be involved in terms of cost for the City, we c~n e, r ite an ordinance that will do it. ~nd hopefully stand up and won't get LJS su. ed too badly. Patzli' I like what you just said. The open space conservatory. Bluff ,.conservat,..ory type district. R!i?...derrnuth' Sounds Cdood. But that implies getting rid of what's there as b~e].i a:!~. Comrn.t ssion Meeting Page .BI Well some things there you're never going to get rJ..d of ~ gh tsh.tn!< unles:s you buy them. Like the Super America. That's going to~ t. he're's go.~.'ng to be a gas station there forever unless somebody buys tt ~,..,or..,].." _ heca,,~ae it's just such a great ~ocation ',':/'r-~u~s' t,.]eLJ J..t ~s although that Loca~Lon ~LL be somewhat d~min~shed when t:.he ~e~.,: hJ. ghway's bu.~Lt. Emr'.t'ng:c~' .rust because of less traffic. But it will stay there I think d o ~"t ' t. '/o u ? .-m~q~:z.1.~.' Although our first goal is to perhaps not have anything. That.. m~.,~'~ht, be u~opian and I think at least limiting to what's cu. xxent].y there c,u'r- ~.,,~neo~.st.e goal .... At least is my immediate goal I~ there axe ~c:,rne .~-~,-..~,..."~-'~.t:..~.on.a z' very low, lo~ impact uses, . that might be okay but the long s-?os! o'r' my long term goal would be that there would be nothing dob~n there~ ...... ~...',~','.:'.x~' Then there ~ould nothing so then you could just drive by ~.t~ and Bat~.z'.1..~.' You ~ouldn'~ just think, it is pretty. b.!i~,:fiexrnuth: But. it's important that we say that and establish that as our v~s~.on, st_a.~-~ doing some... Cont-ad' You don't want ~o actively use it. c.~.ct-z].~.' Tf there are some trail ox ~o or some parking ox something, ?.h,st..'s fine but I'm talking open space, not an active park. ,~-~.' We have a picnic area. A place to go in the pa~k ~.~he~e people '?.hen can get off on t~ails and hike up and down the rive~. .:_~,~.ngs: I don t~ even need to drive by it and I 11 be satisfied to know J.'L's: t. here. 9atz].~.: It's for future generations. If ~e don't do ~t now, ~t's going to be developed and ~e lose the bluffs. Fxhart' That's right. ~4e're going to lose it if we don't do somethJ..ng g;~t. zli' And you're not going to get another bluffs until the next. ice age ~-~;.o .you. either have a choice now to save it or it's gone. Ernming ..... We are ~nto an interglacial period B~'Lz.].[' [t.'t~ jusL a matter of a couple million years and ~e're rJ..ght back. E-xhar't: Let me not be accused of dragging meetings Ernm~ngs' Call it a glacial zone. Glacial out,ash zone. ?],~snning Commission ~eeting ,May 2, 1990 - Pa~e 52 l(ra,...J~s:~: Would you like me to make a few overtures to the Park Board and ::T':.;.ty Ctou. n,."~il to see if they have some similar interests? s;Jt'zli: I don't think you're sold enough on the vision to present .~t T'a~;'!y to be quite honest with you. You're not excited abou. t if you"re promot, ing your new proposal yes, but as far as promoting open sp.~ce and preserving the bluff. h;'"r r,.' U, SS: Well no. I applaud that as a goal. I just have been through the reality of what these things cost and what it costs people that have ~.',"..',..,'e:~:.'..t. ed. 7. mean there's a lot of things that are attached to these things that. you. don't~ yes. Preserving a bluff line...It's just not that simple ~z~'ncl ~.t.'s ~oi. n9 t.o be costly and it's going to involve a lot of effort, by a ].o'L ,J'F peop].e in the City if that's what you want to achieve. From.-:,. 'ngs-~: Okay, do it. ~Y?',,,..a.~'~t' Do you want people to volunteer? Xrau,~-ss: Yeah, there's a couple of folks that...but we'll put together some, k~.nd oF a meeting and get people. ~rnrnJngs: SLit. you know what, what can you say? C,::)n',."ad: But no, See, I'd rather have a proposal that we take to somebody. Seriously. If we get. the Park and Rec and the City Council involved, we're p;--etty 'Farni]~iar with ~hese issues and we're not coming up with an absolute. ThJ. s is it.. We're starting to generate some ideas but we're closer to it.~ n',.aybe T'm taking some liberties but I think we're pretty close to the ~.?~sue. T 'ye played with that fringe district down there for many, many years. But ~'d sure like, what. I'd rather do is draft a direction statement, or an opinion that the Planning Commission believes that ~e c~h..),..~]d look at a conservancy zone down there with the intent being.~. The ].o?,g term intent being a recreation site for people of Chanhassen and the s::,..~'rvouncJi, n~&~ area for trails and whatever. Then for staff to put in an ~:~nL~.cip~ted cost. of ~hatever our action would do. That would be a gut feel .~..nc] I guess I 'd have to associate the costs ~ith it. ~ wouldn't fee!. rea! cor,'~fort, able .if ~ clidn't put some kind of cost implications down. And then pasts that in front of somebody with us and see how they react to it. ~mrr, i'ngs.: How about this? I think what you're saying is fine with me~ don't disagree with you but I think a first step along there is maybe to r:'.,repare a map of what the area is that we're talking about and what's in it now. Get. it identified so we can see it. Conrad: I think that's a good idea. And then also maybe how the bluff~ ! t. lnink concurrently we're looking at a bluff ordinance. So I think out of thJ. s report, that. I see tonight, I see the bluff ordinance is something that ~,~e ~:.-~hou].d be going ahead on. I also really like and something that I've 'never considered is that dump. That salvage yard. I think that's another ~.::s,~,..le that we should tackle. Those two seem rather important to me so ~ d.:?'n't knc:,~J but ~ think ~e should be looking at those and then doing this :--.~.a'qning' Commission Meeting Hay 2., 1990 - Page 53 K'.,'-a'~.~ss: T can sit dough with Roger~ Jo Ann and I and we can try to piece th~.:.-'.~ together a little bit~ If you want to go with an overall, open space ~o'~'~servst. ion district, it ~ould create the Deed for a separate bluff ,:.-:,,",.-.'~:~_n,al",oe so we've 9et to figure that out up front. Sl'r}-:art' Haybe ~.~e should be looking at hiring Mark t.o do a eS,000.O0 :2 o n'i e t h i n g ? '~;raL~ss' N,c.,. We'll do this in-house. ~-ll~-~,.-,'n: Save 1:.}hat..-e~- 000.00 for the buying. ........... · ., ~._} ~ Krauss' Roger's on a retainer so we can use him as much as ~e ~4a'nt to. Frha'rt.~ Well anyway, I agree with the alternative to go with at least an... in'Lent plan that ~e all agree ~ith. Ocr. tad' Ne .~.~re putting together a comprehensive plan right nob~ so this has 9ct to move kind of quickly if ~e ~ant to put a different zoning category down there. And when are we going to the public with the comprehensive nl an? [ .... K',.-a,..~ss' 14e'l]. talk about that in a minute. Conrad' Uhat.. Jo Ann? Hay? 'You said May? Kra!_~ss ' She did? O~_s..'en' ! did not. keep thinking we re going to have public hearings pretty soon. Krauss' Nell vie thought we would but we gave you a vacation. .......~,Isen'.. We'll start moving ahead real heavy duty on it. Krat.,ss' If you want to move onto the next item I can give you an update on t:.ha.t stuff. Emn',ings' On what? Krsuss: Well I didn't have a chance to do a report from the Director so ! c_:x~.n~..I ~,,~as in Denver during the last Council meeting came up but let me h:,riefly tOL!CH on that and a couple of guide plan issues. At the last.. n'~eet:i.r.,g~ well actually you approved that guide plan amendment for Harvey and 0'grien on L. ake Lucy Road ~ith the sewers that ~ere failing. The Met're Council just approved that and they didn't alter our stipulations any so it was approved as you asked. The HRA has authorized staff to enter into a ,.~:-ont.",:-act ~ith Stager, Rosco,~, Thoust to do a traffic study for the ,.':io;.~snt. o~:n. It.'s going to reopen up some of the issues on West 78th Street. It'.'s ~:~,':;,,:,.'.ng to look at the Target proposal, if that materializes and a 8'red .7ohn.son proposal, bJe clearly have some significant traffic: concerns that P]annkr-g Commission Meeting ~,.,.',.: may be confron{ed with and this is the group that we've decided to go ~,.;-i'~:h to work ~,.~ith us on that. Short, Elliott~ Henderson has been hired to ~.~ork or, t. he storm water utility program. You may recall that. staff is ~,.::,G,:;.ng that we can get this s~o~rn water utility fund in there to f~na. noe. that one person? Short, E1].iott, Henderson? ~mr,',i rigs: Yeah. You just cai 1 him short for short? K~s:,.~s~s' He is pretty small. But we're hoping that this is the financing ;'!'!e C ' .... -' ,,e~n.].srn whereby we can do a comprehensive storm water plan that we've never had in the City. We can also do our wetland protection program with .. ~G .C ' ,u.:~ ~ ~<2,al. mapping ado some nell ordinance developments under that program as %.,~e]..].. The Council's looking at this. Hopefully ~e'll have a decision from them yet this summer. Basically a storm Hater utility~ if you don~t understand how it works is it assumes that everybody in the city ' I c:entr].ouues te storm water that falls on your property so em a per acre basis divided by use on a quarterly basis~ you're assessed beca,Jse the city ie operating utility fund for storm water. ~bout 15 communitie shave dens it .[.n the Twin Cities ~hich State law was recently changed to allow you to , ...... {u. Meat communities wind up~ single family homes wind up paying about $..~ nO or $4 O0 to $5 O0 a quarter Commercial property pays more. You can ~",ef 'tax exempe properties and charge churches because anybody that's on a c.:']'ty' utility sys-tle[~ is going to get charged and it can generate significant .¥..urr,~:~: ,:',f money for us te not only do planning but us to also ge in and do :L~2.:~LJ[~s{kio?'~ of storm water retention areas. Of wetland areas. Constru.ction c:,f s:tc, rm wafer facilities. ~here they need to be constructed. Up until · r'~o~4~ all b~e've been able to do is tell the developer you take care ef the ;:>ro:}lem en your own property because we have no place else te put {t.'::¥ real.].y an ineffective and inefficient way of ~orking. :4:~:].clermuth' What about buying nature conservancies? The City Council .::-o ,...~..t ,:! d e c i d e. You mean down on the bluff? b.! i .I.d.':~r mu t.h ' Yeah. Krauss' I suppose the Minnesota River Valley, it's going to get the water. ! c!on't know. It's pretty focused. What you're paying for is fairly focused. Ihs City Council approved the modification to the tax increment district that we kind of flubbed our way through the last time it was en here. You may be aware that there's a large joint HRA/City Council meeting on ,,,ondav that's open to the public to discuss all the tax increment programs in the City. What they repercussions are and where they're going. Along those lines, we're meeting with Target Friday morning. Now Target k:a._e supposed to tell us whether or not they were going te go ahead on s-}-:[..:z!sy and we've since found out that Target is internally making their clec:ieien on Friday but. we should have word shortly as to whether they're ,F::?ri~..)l. lS~y . . . S!.ar~ni. ng Comrn.i_ssion Meeting ~":~.::..,,," 2, :teeO - Page ~ E' 1. ' .~-'.~ o nL! h a t :' y . · uo ou think the probability is© K'r'auss' I'm beginning to think it's getting real. Reason for that. -:s t.~.,;o · .:'.,¢.'..:... 1¢ r,J,..,e :3(.It. oq the ptane ~ith my former boss from H~nnetonka and ~ asked A'n'ne ~,~hat was the latest on Target in Hinnetonka because that's ~4here .... ,~.¢'¢ wanted to 9o and sh~ said they ~ere working pretty ~ntensive~y through . ,,¢ fa].l and {inally realize that they just couldn t pu.t it there It ,:l-.~n't ~J.t~ At 7 Hi shopping center. The old Red 0~1 and ~n ¢act there was a'not, her article I read a Hhile ago that Rainbow is looking {er sites to expand and they had chosen H~nnetonka as one of their s~tes and that c:..:::c'.urred to me, that's the only site {or this place to go and Anne c:c,'r',~ irmed that they're ~ooking at that so. There is no spot left... K'~-au. ss: No, there is not and Target had told Lis that one of the reasons ;4by they were se anxious to be here was to head off Mai-Hart. Well Lial---Ns'~"t .just announced they're building in Coon Rapids th~s morning so t. hat lights a fire under Target, and I think it will, you be~in to put the p{~eces together and it's starting to sound legitimate. ¢Ahrens: Do we want. Target here? ,_...,~ .... n'ract:. ~ don't know. That's a real good question Kr~-:.,....~ss: Pe].l that's one of the things that's going to be discussed c:,n .No nd a y. .-::,:~ .?.-"ns: I wou].dn t say that. that would be such a great advantage Conrad' Yeah, .11. don't know. 8at. xii' Is that a TIF property there? k"~-.-_~uss' It is a TIF property and Target is looking at... Ah'tens: I think it's too huge. Wino hasn't gone there in the last year? S].Ison: In the last week. !<':-nu.~s: I think you have to realize though, this is not just a Target. ,~i'~-.at of a].l they're talking about a mega Target. One of the big ones but th,,~y"re talking with a combined with a major grocery store. 50,000 to 60~000 square foot ~rocery store and a lot of retail inbet~een so in one -Fell s:woop downtown Chanhassen, for better or worse, conceiveably gets .:-.;o n'~p ]. eted. ~:qat:,::l.~l' [4hat. does that do to the Super Value? Krauss' Nell. that whole project disappears. Market Square site would be .s'nv, e].oped by the Target. That's still up in the air but that's what weu].d ~!anning Commission Meeting n.~,:.ppe~.n if Target ~'-.+'-~]:...~.,.~ ...... i' S.o they're waiting on that, on the Target. decision? .cu. kno~ Market Square could be built. Krauss: The'>, could come in for a building permit tomorrow. Emmi'n.:{ls: 8Ltt they'll make money selling their land to Target. I know. Pi~-'.r...,..J:?s: A couple minor things. The CUP for the restaurant at 7 and 41 spi.)roved and HcDonald's was approved. Relative to the Comp Plan.~ I think w.:P~ all overdosed en Comp Plan material and ~e needed about a 80 day hiatus~ lir~-~e's up and you've got to 8o back to it. We didn't completely step t4o'i-king on it thou. gh. I had a number of meetings with the School District The School District is looking for a middle school site in the mid-lO90 range. And we think, ~ell you can tell me I'm ~rong but it occurred to me that. the perfect place for them to ~o is out in front of Timberwoed en TH ~]..Ison' Wouldn't they just love that. '::r:~x,...,ss-: Well the school district likes that site. We walked it with theft .st,--hi'~~. u.~vc..-~... There's a 40 acre chunk there . It's situated right in terms of thai)- busing. It's a nice area for them to level, off and I think it really h',r:'ngs that residential component across TH 5 that we've been looking for. ~-,,P'} .... would be loek~ng to develop it w~th a number of recreat~ona~ amenities · 'c}',a~-. ~ould be o{ use to our residents as ~ell. The program~ if it comes together~ and the C~ty Counc~ ~s interested. ~e ta~ked te the~ about u~ou].d in~/elve City assistance in acquiring the land and He're not sure yet ,~- ~ -- the tax increment ~a~ as ~t currently sits is going to a~low us te c~c. t.h~t but we're looking into it and He're going ~o be sho~ing that as ~'~-eferred schoo~ skte on the next draft of the Land use plan. We ~,~ant to come back to you at the next Planning Oommission meeting ~ith a revised ].and use plan and some addit~ona~ text work. ~t~s not going to be a real heavy agenda ~,ith lgnd use. It's not going to be a real heavy 8gend8 ~er{od~ We don~t have that much on but ~e wanted to brkng you some material t.o talk to you about that. We've been ~o'rking ~ith RCM on our utility program and expect to have that wrapped up in 2 to 3 ~eeks. We've n, een ~aorking with Hell Mark and I have been ~orking on an Eastern Carver c,.o..~?~ty st,.~dy on a transportation element. Ne think ~e're going to have that ~rapped up shortly. We're getting some pressure to hold some inforr~at, ional public meetings. ~nd while you mould prefer normally to have everytlqing done before you go ahead and do it, I don't think ~e can ~..,~ait rnu,:};h longer realistically to do that. What I'd like to propose is that .-~ ,or yc, tlr regular meeting on 5une 6th and for your regular meetin~ on June 20th~ b~e establish maybe an hour and a half discussion time and go like r.o'-th of TH .B one meeting. South of TH 5 the next meeting. If we need m,-:::,r.s~ meet. ings~ we can of course do that but I'd like to get some articles in i~:he paper that. basically outline the current status of the plan. What :;.t means to people. What it doesn't mean to people. When these meetings ,,,,.~o:..ild c)cc:ur and hopefully get. some attendance out here to get some more ieeues c)ut in the open. Comprehensive planning by petition, which is sort ,;::,--.F happening new in t. he baokground~ is not a very effective way ef working ¥:.nd Y think we need te bring people into the process rather quickly~ get ':?our agreeraent on that~ we'll go ahead and try to arrange those [rreetingsx. The last thing is, we need time to hit on these last sections as u,.,e're bringing them in. Now we can hold another special meeting on an off Nedl~~es~day night en Hay 23rd or what we can do is what we did the last time · ':'.':~',.et seem to work fairly well which is start the meetings at 5:30ish and 5¥1r~g you dinner and try to get in a couple hours work in before the 'r"egula'c planning commission starts. Now it makes for a longer night, but one r~,.'.Tiht. Y~d like your direction on that. like the one night better. Ahrer'~s' I dc) too. Rat. zli' I like the one night but unfortunately I find myself concentrating ].ess on either the meeting materials or the comprehensive plan materials '- ~..--,,..! . That's just me. I don't ~..,e,"~::~ se there's just so much of it all at once . find myself concentrating on the food. ~:qatT;.1.~' Ha. ybe if ~e could get the Comp materials a little bit~ to us a ].itt'.ie bit before the regular meeting materials or something. That would help me in any event. can try to do that. Conrad' Let's try to do one night. Ah'tens: Haybe if you could keep the agenda short, on the rest of it.. Krauss: Well so fat- we haven't had to be elective about that. We haven't hac! a whole lot. of items coming in and some that we've had, big ones~ Redmond for example and. a couple of smaller industrial pro3ects, have pta!led and we're not exactly certain when they'll reschedule. Should .I go ahead with setting up those informational meetings? Co,~r ad ' Yeah. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Batzli moved, Ellson seconded to approve the Minutes of the PlanninQ Commission meetinQ dated April 18~ 1990 as presented. All voted in favor except 3im Wildermuth who abstained and the motion carried. Co',-.rad' I see under open discussion you want to talk park and ride. Do .,.xo~..~ want... 0!.sen' We can do that later. Conr ad ' 8r eat . ?lar, nin8 Commission Heetin8 Hay 2, !990 - Pase 58 ~atz!i moved~ Eiison seconded to ad3ourn the meeting. Ali voted in favor the motion carried. The meeting was ad3ourned at 11:00 Snhrr, itt. ed by Paul Kraues ning Di'rector n'~--sF)ar.sd by Harm Opheim