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PC 2008 10 21 CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 21, 2008 Chairman Papke called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Kurt Papke, Kathleen Thomas, Mark Undestad, Denny Laufenburger, and Dan Keefe MEMBERS ABSENT: Kevin Dillon and Debbie Larson STAFF PRESENT: Sharmeen Al-Jaff, Senior Planner; and Alyson Fauske, Assistant City Engineer PUBLIC PRESENT: Lynne Etling 7681 Century Boulevard Vic Moravec 3821 Linden Circle Mark Leutem 7755 Century Boulevard PUBLIC HEARING: ARBORETUM SHOPPING CENTER: REQUEST FOR A MINOR PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT (PUD) AMENDMENT TO ALLOW A DRIVE-THRU AND SITE PLAN REVIEW WITH VARIANCES ON PROPERTY LOCATED AT 7755 CENTURY BOULEVARD, (LOT 2, BLOCK 1, ARBORETUM SHOPPING CENTER). APPLICANT: KLMS GROUP, LLC, PLANNING CASE 08-22. Sharmeen Al-Jaff presented the staff report on this item. Papke: Okay, Denny. You had a number of questions that you were asking before we began. Why don’t we start with you. Laufenburger: Yes, thanks Sharmeen. Could you just take a minute and explain to me the parking that is required for this site, and as I look at the document that was provided to the commissioners, there was an explanation here that some of the parking that seems to be associated with this building. Not just this property but with this building, is actually attributed to the retail on the north side. Can you just talk a little bit about what parking do you attribute to this building currently? Al-Jaff: I have calculated the number of parking spaces and currently this portion of the building, the westerly portion, is where the applicant is requesting to locate the sandwich shop. The remainder of this is the convenience store associated with the gas station. The parking that is surrounding the building will serve this site. Laufenburger: So including. Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Al-Jaff: And there are. Laufenburger: So let me stop you there. Including the, there’s the number marked 12 immediately on the north side of that building. Al-Jaff: They are intended to serve this site. Laufenburger: Okay. So staff would say that those 12 parking spaces then are credited to this building. Al-Jaff: Correct. Laufenburger: Okay. And likewise the 10 and 6 on the west side of the building. Al-Jaff: Correct. Laufenburger: They also credited to this, so that’s a total of 28. And then right now the 9 spots on this. Al-Jaff: Correct. Laufenburger: They are also credited to this building. Al-Jaff: That’s correct. Laufenburger: So that’s a total of 37 parking spaces attributed to this building. Al-Jaff: Yes. Laufenburger: And does that satisfy the current requirements for this building? Al-Jaff: You need 44 parking spaces. There are also 12 parking spaces located west of the car wash. Laufenburger: Okay. So they’re also attributed to that building? Al-Jaff: Correct. Laufenburger: Okay. So we need 44 in order to comply? Al-Jaff: Correct. Laufenburger: And so with 12, 10, 16, 28 and 9, that’s 37 plus 12. They currently have 49. Okay. 2 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Papke: If I may interject for just a second. The blueprint we were given here shows that the parking spaces on the north side of the building are credited to the retail building to the north, so does that indicate that this blueprint is in error? Al-Jaff: There is a cross parking agreement between those two spaces. Papke: Okay. So they are officially accredited to the building to the north but they have a cross agreement so they count for the spaces to the southern building. Al-Jaff: Correct. Papke: Got it. Keefe: Can I, just as long as we’re on that. That I can interject just one question. What is the parking requirement per square foot for the city for this type of use? Al-Jaff: The restaurant has to provide 60. 1 space per 60 square feet. Keefe: How many square feet is this? Al-Jaff: 3,000. Laufenburger: No, 1520? Al-Jaff: Yes, 1520. 1,520 square feet. Keefe: Divided by 60 is what? Laufenburger: It looks like about 25. Al-Jaff: 25 parking spaces. Keefe: Okay. That’s the number we need. Al-Jaff: And then the convenience store is a retail establishment and would require 1 space per 200 square feet of retail which translates to 20 parking spaces. Laufenburger: So in changing the 1520 to, correct Sharmeen, are we changing that to a restaurant or fast food? In changing the 1520 to 1 per 60 square feet, they need 25. The convenience store needs 20 so they need 45. Al-Jaff: That’s correct. Laufenburger: If the variance goes through, is that correct? Al-Jaff: That’s correct. 3 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Laufenburger: Okay. May I continue Chairman? Okay. Could you possibly depict, I understand that you went to a store similar to what is intended to be occupied in Eden Prairie. Let me ask you some questions about that. Do you happen to know how long that sandwich shop has been in place and how well it’s established? You identified that no more than 6 cars were there. Al-Jaff: Correct. It’s been there for a few years. I don’t know exactly how long but I was there a couple of years ago. Laufenburger: What I’m wondering is, is it reasonable to expect that a similarly built up sandwich shop in this property, would it be reasonable to expect that we would see 6 cars lined up there as well. Al-Jaff: What you need to look at is any, if you allow this to go through, it doesn’t have to be a Milio’s shop. Laufenburger: Right. Al-Jaff: So a couple years from now let’s say Milio’s decides that they really don’t want to be here any longer. Any other establishment that utilizes a drive thru could be located at this location. Could be a Taco Bell. Could be a McDonald’s. Could be an ice cream shop. Coffee shop. Anything can go in there. Papke: So the, just to get the meaning out of your observation when you went to the Milio’s there. You did substantiate that at least, at that particular location, a stacking of 6 was, made sense? Al-Jaff: Correct. Papke: But that doesn’t impact you know in the long term. Laufenburger: Thank you Chairman. That was my questions for now. Thomas: Why don’t I just wait for a little bit. Undestad: Yeah Sharmeen, the drawing that the staff did with the drive lane and moving the parking to the south. The applicant didn’t respond to that or didn’t like that or? Al-Jaff: Maybe the applicant can address his concerns with it. The cost associated with putting something like that together. That was one of the concerns. Undestad: Okay. 4 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Keefe: My question relates a little bit to fast food uses in Chanhassen and sort of the overall thinking around what we’re doing with that. I know there’s a Subway sandwich shop across the street from this. But was there a focus to. Al-Jaff: Jimmy John’s. Keefe: There’s actually a Subway, yeah. Right. Al-Jaff: Or across the street. Thomas: Yeah, south of 5. Al-Jaff: You’re right. Keefe: As I recall there was some sort of focus to try and concentrate fast food more towards the downtown areas. You know, I don’t know if that, that this retail center included that or. Al-Jaff: It’s not that per se. It’s more of where do you want to locate drive thru’s and at the present time they are in highway business districts typically. And in the general business. Wendy’s for instance has a drive thru. McDonald’s has a drive thru. Taco Bell. Keefe: And so, alright. And so in this district. Al-Jaff: This is intended to be more neighborhood related types of uses. Keefe: Okay. So the extent that you just kind of followed through on for, I mean if say Milio’s goes out, or Milio’s. I’m not sure how you pronounce it, but the, and McDonald’s comes in. I mean could they lease it to a McDonald’s or is that a prohibited use in this? Al-Jaff: No. Keefe: It isn’t. Okay. Al-Jaff: It’s a restaurant and they use a drive thru. Keefe: Okay. Does the City adjust at all it’s parking requirements related to various restaurant uses? Al-Jaff: Depends on whether they have a liquor license or not. Keefe: Okay. So that’s the deciding. Al-Jaff: That’s the only variation, correct. Keefe: Okay. Alright, that’s it. 5 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Papke: Yeah, I have a couple concerns and questions. Looking at the picture you have up here, one of the concerns I have is, as the cars, after the cars pull through the drive thru, and especially now that it’s going to be a one way, they will have to exit right through the gas station. There’s no other easy way out and I’m envisioning you know myself driving through there and I’m trying to take my first bite of my sandwich and someone pulls through from the gas station and we have a collision. It’s very, it seems very unusual to have a fast food restaurant exit right through a gas station like that. Can you bring back the picture you have of the other Milio’s in Eden Prairie just to see, so we can see what their traffic pattern looks like there. Do you have that? You had that on just a little while ago. There we go. Perfect. So can you explain what the traffic flow looks like in that particular configuration. Do you. Al-Jaff: This is the entrance into the drive thru, and it wraps around the entire building. And there is stacking for more than 6 vehicles as you can see. Exit is, it is to the right. Papke: Alright. So the bottom line is. Al-Jaff: And of course you could, you could. Papke: But the cars don’t have to cross over in front of the gas pumps. They would have to at the one in Chanhassen than Eden Prairie, so this seems like a much more safe design from what I can tell. Okay. I just wanted to make sure I understood what the configuration was there. I remember when we first considered the drive thru many, you know several years ago when this first came to the Planning Commission and one of the reasons it was rejected back then was for precedent setting reasons, and one of the concerns I have with this one is I wouldn’t be shocked if Jimmy John's came to us in a few months and said well, Milio’s has got one. We want one too. Okay. Have you heard anything from Jimmy John's about this or? Al-Jaff: No. Papke: No. You know my overall concern is, and we’ll get to this more I’m sure at the end when we have all the facts but I’m just very concerned that we’re, the traffic back in here, especially if Jimmy John's would like equal treatment, is going to get real sticky. Okay with that, if the applicant would like to step to the microphone and state your name and address for the record and color in the lines for us, that would be great. Mark Leutem: Thank you very much for hearing it tonight. I’m not used to this process so bear with me a little bit here. Just to give you maybe a quick little background on our business. Basically. Papke: Could you please state your name and address. Mark Leutem: Oh I’m sorry. I’m Mark Leutem. Home address or business? Papke: Business is fine. 6 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Mark Leutem: Business is 7755 Century Boulevard, Chanhassen and 55317. Basically this business is a family owned business. There is a number of families that pitched in to start this. We had an operator come into it initially. Our background is commercial real estate and we own and manage some of our own commercial real estate businesses so this is really not specifically what we do. Running this type of facility. That operator defaulted on us. His name was Ed. Buchtell and he ran the business called Pamedco. I won’t go into the soap opera that surrounded a lot of those things there. In the particular space that we’re talking about, there was 2 other businesses that went in there. Nevertheless Mr. Buchtell lost the operation and we had to take over in the convenience store. At the time he put in a couple other tenants. I’m not going to necessarily attribute the issue that we’re talking about today, whether they survived or not. I’m not placing on that I think. There were some issues where people were venturing out in their first business and didn’t quite know what they were doing. Nevertheless, this particular business has been struggling. It’s, we’ve put just over $600,000 into it since we built it to keep the thing moving along. The strategy that we’re doing with Milio’s and plugging in this tenant here, some other things that we would like to do internally in operation is part of a grand scheme to get this thing taking care of itself and being strong support for the community. So I thank you the opportunity of listening to us today and looking at, talking about this drive thru. I’d like to maybe for the format here go through the very nice report that Sharmeen put together here to help me give a little bit of structure to the presentation. First, you see the site of the Milio’s that we’ve doing comparison to, and again all due respect to the staff and certainly a challenging, they did a very good job of putting together what they did, but if you essentially just take a look at that site right there, and you see where that Milio’s is, I mean just look at the density just right around there. And then you flash to the picture, if you can put up the picture of our site. I’m sorry, the photograph one. There we go. And compare to the density around there. Mr. Vic Moravec is with me tonight. He brought some specific numbers with regard to comparing that store in Eden Prairie. It just so happens there are 50 Milio’s in the United States. Laufenburger: Say that again. 5-0? Mark Leutem: 5-0. That store’s number 1. That store produces over $850,000 a year. Okay. Mr. Vic Moravec assures me his projections to have a successful business are less than half of what that store will do. He brought me some projections of what similar stores are doing in size and projections in different areas, similar communities and what not. With regard to the drive thru, as they’ve tested in here, between 11:00 and 11:30 for 5 minutes, .6 cars. Between 11:30 and 1:00 per 5 minute, 1 car. And it takes 2 minutes for them to service them. So they move through it pretty quickly and there’s not that many, there’s no cars waiting in line. Per 5 minutes between 12:00 and 12:30, .13. Per 5 minutes between 12:30 and 1:00, .12 cars every 5 minutes. So the cars are essentially moving through. They’re not stacking in there. The projection of 3 wasn’t based on, that’s how many cars we could squeeze in there. It was based on what the needs of the store would be and the operating system that was set up. There’s a similar, I won’t read through the numbers but basically it gives us store #2, and again these stores are running at their maximum capacity right now. They’re up and operating. Additionally that store in Eden Prairie has been around there, you said 17 years? Vic Moravec: I think it’s 17 years. 7 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Mark Leutem: 17 years so long full established. So our expectation of staging 3 cars or less in there again are based on what the business will do. And I remember it was brought up in there and said well, what if Milio’s goes away? Got forbid that happened. I don’t want to see that. Plus Vic will be tied to a 10 year lease so he’ll have to come up with some dough, but anyway. But the point is that, we cannot put a McDonald’s in. We cannot put in a Taco Bell. Taco Bell’s don’t do franchises like that anymore. McDonald’s, Burger Kings, down the list. Like I said earlier, we’re in commercial real estate. We got on the line with brokers. We’ve been searching hard for tenants for that space. McDonald’s won’t look at it unless it’s 2,800 square feet or better. All those franchises they talk about that would produce some high volume through there would not be applicable going in there. We’ve already searched that out. Believe me it’s something that we worked on. And keep in mind too we’re at 1,500 square feet. We’re talking about a space that is smaller than this room we’re standing in. Let’s keep going through Sharmeen’s report, and if we could click to the picture of the layout with the drive thru. After this was presented to me, we went and brought this to the engineers at Westwood, and I know they do a lot of work in this area here. Their concern was one thing right off the bat that they point out and that is that, the way the drive thru’s stationed right there, pretty much all of the customers were going to have to walk across the drive thru to get into the front of the building, which essentially would be possibly considered you know a safety hazard. You have people walking, or little children essentially coming across and going in there. The other part of it too is Sharmeen stated in her report here too, and I can’t remember exactly where but she talked about trying to keep with the original design, and essentially when we put together, we modified this design, again we looked at trying to stay with the original design of the building instead of changing to this. Another big piece for us too is this is, it would be horribly expensive, effectively cost prohibitive. We’re looking at a modification there of just the drive thru with the changes in there, I’m sure that’s pushing close to $100,000 and we just don’t have the ability to produce that. And again in any commercial real estate business, we have 1,500 square feet we’re collecting rent on. You need to try to recoup some of this business. This essentially just wouldn’t work from that standpoint. If we go to the next, the drawing that we have here. In Sharmeen’s report on page 12 of 7. I’m sorry 7 of 12. Now the very last sentence there, it says based on that method of calculation the City Council approved a total of 44 parking spaces. So if we go to the blueprint plan that the engineer’s did for us there, if you count, can I step up there and just point and show you where. Laufenburger: Could you just use directions west, north. Mark Leutem: Oh, okay. So if you go to her pointer, go left a little bit with the pointer. Right there. That’s 10 stalls. It’s marked in the print there. Slip just to the right. There’s 6 stalls there. We slide down to the drive thru, to the left. Right in through there. There can be 3 cars in there. There’s 2 stalls left down by the handicap. That’s going to be on the west side of the building. Laufenburger: Well just a second. Mark Leutem: Sure. Laufenburger: Say again where would you find 3 stalls in the drive thru? 8 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Mark Leutem: Well you think about it, if we are taking out stalls but cars are driving through, those are customers that would have been parking and coming in. They’re just not parking and coming in right now. They’re in the drive thru. So as far as the capacity of the building it services, it ends up being the same number essentially. Laufenburger: So would you, just for that matter, would you consider cars parked on Century, or excuse me, waiting in cue on Century Boulevard waiting to turn the corner, to get into your drive thru, wouldn’t it be great if there were that many. Would you consider those parking places as well? Mark Leutem: On Century? Laufenburger: Yeah. Mark Leutem: No. No. So then we have the 2 handicap stalls there. And then if we go to the far right on the other side of the pumps, we have 11 stalls there. Actually the blueprint says 13. 2 of them are, there’s a vacuum there and so it kind of ends up but basically if you take 10 plus 6 plus 3 plus 2, I’m sorry, plus the 12 on the east side of there and the 11, that equals 44 stalls. We have room to service 44 vehicles. The other part of it too is, Mr. Moravec informed me that with a requirement of 25 parking stalls, at an average of say 1.5 people per vehicle, that’s 37 bodies in his 1,500 square foot store. He said he can’t service that many people. He certainly can’t sit them all down, and he’d have a line going out the door. And again, as far as looking at the expectations of what his business would do, he’s not having to project that kind of activity in order to be successful in the spot. As I stated too, and I did not communicate well with Sharmeen on this one. I’ll take responsibility. If we flip to the next slide that shows the stacking of the cars. This would all be a one way driving through, and I, that was my intention in my mind. I think I didn’t tell her real well when we set this up, but yeah traffic would essentially flow through, and it would flow past our pumps. Down both sides of our pumps. We have double wide spaces. Actually plus. You can almost put 3 cars next to each other going in there and it’s very wide. It’s very open and quite honestly with capacity, even if we doubled our pump activity, there’s no traffic jams that are coming through there right now I assure you. The hard surface and green space calculations she said weren’t specifically provided. Well basically I did a rough measurement when we did this layout and the green space we’d be putting in for the screening and basically we would be putting the current, currently where the drive thru is right now on the current layout there is a triangle piece that has some shrubbery and a small tree, which essentially would be transplanted right over to where that, to the handicap spot is to the right there. That triangle piece where those stalls would be out essentially becoming it so actually in green space should be a zero net. Might even be a portion of a gain from impervious surface. Again and I can provide that. It will be quite negligible in any change in there and I think actually it should be a zero. Excuse me for a minute. Let me flip through my notes here that I was writing. Oh, a question with regard to Jimmy John's. Jimmy John's had the option of looking at our space and did not do that so I’m not, I’m not sure what to address what they may want in the future but basically we weren’t, we weren’t to my knowledge not even approached by them at the time. They went in where they wanted to go in. Apparently they may even get the window facing out on the other side. I think I covered everything. 9 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Papke: Dan, did you have any questions? We’ll start. Keefe: Yeah, just a couple questions. Is there a lease in place on this or is there an option for lease or where you at in terms of signing up Milio’s? Mark Leutem: The lease with Mr. Moravec? It’s, we have leased, we have terms agreed to. The lease is contingent on getting this done. If we don’t get it done, I don’t have a tenant. Keefe: And then how long did you say it was proposed for? Mark Leutem: Well he has a base 10, or he has 5 year re-options. He has a 5 year base for sure. Is it 5 year and then 2? Vic Moravec: 10 year base, two-5 year options. Mark Leutem: That’s right, 10 year base. Two-5 year options. Keefe: How long as Milio’s been around? Mark Leutem: Pardon me? Keefe: How long has Milio’s been around? Vic Moravec: 26 years. My name is Vic Moravec and I do reside in Chanhassen at 3821 Linden Circle. Milio’s has been around for 26 years. The first 22 of those years were known as Big Mike Super Subs. 4 years ago they converted to Milio’s. Keefe: Okay. That’s all my questions. Undestad: Do all the Milio’s out there now, do they all have drive thru’s? Mark Leutem: That’s pretty much the trend, yes. Thomas: Except for, does Eden Prairie have one? Because the new one in Eden Prairie they just put by the Kowalski’s, do they have one? Vic Moravec: The new one in Eden Prairie I own. That one does not have a drive thru. Of the 50 stores in the chain, 12 of them have drive thru. There is 2 drive thru’s in Minnesota. Apple Valley and Apple Valley was one of the ones we did a comparison of here. Thomas: And then Eden Prairie. Vic Moravec: And Eden Prairie, and Eden Prairie like Mark said is either the number 1 and 2 performing store in the chain. 10 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Papke: More questions? Thomas: I don’t think I have any questions. Laufenburger: Yeah, maybe this question is for Mr. McMoravec, is that right? Vic Moravec: Moravec. Laufenburger: Moravec. What attracts you about this property? Vic Moravec: I like the site. I like the demographics. Chanhassen and Victoria are both growing extremely fast. The biggest advantage for me is the two right hand turns in here, in my drive thru. You can get out easily. Back onto Highway 5. And out to Victoria which is growing extremely fast as well. So those are the people that I want to service. And being near a gas station as well. Yes. Laufenburger: So what are the competitive sandwich shops to you in that area? Vic Moravec: Jimmy John's is what about 200 yards away? And Subway is on the other side of Highway 5 on the southwest corner. Laufenburger: And you’ve observed patterns in both of those areas? Vic Moravec: Yes we have. We’ve done projections. We think we know pretty close to what each one is doing in sales. Laufenburger: And if you don’t have a drive thru can you be successful? Vic Moravec: With the amount of money that’s done in sub sales in that area right now, without the drive thru I won’t have the competitive edge. There’s not enough to support 3 stores. Laufenburger: So your desire would be to take from Jimmy John's and Subway by offering the convenience of you don’t have to get out of your car. Vic Moravec: That’s part of my desire. Part of my desire also is to increase sales for all of us. I mean the sub, if there’s a million dollars in sales out there right now, I’d like to see that grow to $1.3 million. Kind of the theory with 3 convenience stores on one corner. Laufenburger: Sure. That’s why Burger King builds next to McDonalds, next to KFC. Vic Moravec: Exactly. Mark Leutem: People go to that area to go get something. Vic Moravec: And it’s a nice growing area out there. I live about a mile from there so it’s a nice growing area. I drive past there all the time. 11 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Papke: Just one question. How do you plan to sign or control and to maintain the one way traffic through there? That was quite ambiguous from the drawings. Mark Leutem: Yeah, there would be, and I apologize. We can modify that but basically it’d be signage and lining and what not essentially to go through there. There’d be do not enter. One way signs to the right of that drawing there, keeping people from going in. And then same thing going on through so signage would essentially direct them through and we’ll probably be overkill on that. Just to make sure people channel through properly. Papke: Alright. Anything else you’d like to present? Mark Leutem: Hope I didn’t miss anything. Papke: Okay, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Alright, at this time if there’s any members of the public that would like to step up to the microphone and state an opinion on this matter, we invite you to do so. Lynne Etling: I’m Lynne Etling, 7681 Century and as you recall I was here the last time for the signage for this property, and I have quite a lot of questions because I quite just don’t understand how you’re measuring the parking spaces for this. You’re only taking into account, you’re taking into the count of this building here but measuring it by the square footage of just this proposed restaurant area? Papke: It’s the square footage of the entire building on all the spaces. Lynne Etling: So that would be much more than 1,500 square feet, right? Al-Jaff: Correct. Papke: Correct. Lynne Etling: So that wouldn’t measure up to 45. Papke: Right. Hence the discussion we had before arriving at the 45 number, right. Total. Lynne Etling: So the variance would have to be granted for the parking. Papke: A variance is required for them to implement plan as it’s proposed to us. A variance is required in order to do that, because their drawings do not show. Lynne Etling: Adequate. Papke: Adequate space. Laufenburger: Just point of clarification Mr. Chairman. 12 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Papke: Yes. Laufenburger: Your name again? Lynne Etling: Lynne Etling. Laufenburger: Nice to have you here Lynne. Lynne Etling: Thank you. Laufenburger: The parking requirements for these two, though it’s one building, there’s two different uses for the building. Is that correct staff? Al-Jaff: That’s correct. Laufenburger: So one of the requirements, the restaurant requires greater density of parking than does the convenience store. Lynne Etling: Okay I guess I question if you’re combining the parking spaces on the one side with the buildings across the, you know in Building 2, why, even though they’re a different type use, why aren’t those going into the mix as well? Laufenburger: Staff, you want to comment? Lynne Etling: Well if you’ve got building, this Building 1 I believe is the big building, right? Al-Jaff: Correct. Lynne Etling: There’s Lot 1 and Lot 2, correct? So if you’re taking all the parking around Lot 1 and this common area there onto the, what would that be, the north side right there? Right there, yes. If that’s combined between the building across the way and that building, wouldn’t that add to the amount of parking spaces that are needed? Al-Jaff: They won’t have enough parking spaces. Lynne Etling: So that’s the whole, yeah. My issue is, obviously I live there. It’s going to have increased traffic flow. People walk in this neighborhood. It’s a very neighborhood type feel. Atmosphere feel. And if you’re going to have a drive thru in this building, you’re going to have people walking across where the cars going. You’re going to have cars going through. They’re going to come out. They have to go down around by Jimmy John's and then to get out so that they can turn left to get back onto Highway 5. The other issue is, if you frequent this area like I do, people going down that common drive, when you think about the density, the density is much different because you have roads, a physical road around the Milio’s in Eden Prairie. Here you have parking lots and that’s what they’re going to be driving through to get back out, or the other way to get back out. So I don’t see the density as an even field. And the other questions I 13 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 had, you know aren’t you kind of like giving him the competitive advantage to put the other two sub shops out of business? So if this goes through then they’re going to take the business away from the other two and they’ll probably be vacant. Papke: That’s the issue of precedence that I brought up towards the beginning of the meeting but it would not be surprising if this were granted, that some of the other shops in the area could ask for similar. Lynne Etling: So I guess I’m just you know if the parking variance is going to be granted, don’t you have to prove hardship? And I don’t think that that’s being proven here. You know it’s a slow economy. Everybody’s going through the same thing. If they allow this drive thru, it’s going to knock out the other two. You know maybe your subs are better, I don’t know. You know I think we all have co-exist here but you know I don’t see that as a win-win for anybody. You’re going to be out, unless you don’t own the building back there, you’re going to be out one more tenant, and if Jimmy John's was offered this spot, does that mean this is a better spot square footage wise or does Jimmy John's have more square footage where it’s at? Maybe that’s why they didn’t want it. These are just questions that come to mind to me. I mean I just don’t think this is a site that’s designed for a drive thru. I’m very concerned about the amount of traffic. The traffic flow. People trying to go onto Century Boulevard, and then they’re going to do a U turn to get back out to Highway 5. I live it. So but you know the parking variance, I don’t think hardship’s being proven. And I think from my notes that’s really all I have. You guys have covered the other ones. Papke: Okay. Thank you very much for your comments. Those were excellent. Lynne Etling: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for hearing me. Papke: Anyone else like to step up and make any comments or questions? Going once. Going twice. Mark Leutem: May I address something else? Papke: Sure, go ahead. Mark Leutem: Unless someone else wants to go ahead. I think everyone in the geographic area got a notice of what was going on today. Al-Jaff: Within 500 feet. Mark Leutem: Okay. So Jimmy John's knows we’re here doing this tonight. Lynne Etling: They only sent to residents… Al-Jaff: Everybody within 500 feet. All property owners within 500 feet. 14 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Mark Leutem: So Jimmy John's knows that we’re here. At least the owners of the building know that we’re here and would have seen all the other things too. And but… Al-Jaff: No. Mark Leutem: If we could just refer back to Sharmeen’s report again on page 7. In the very last paragraph, the parking on the site was approved and originated in 2003. The restaurant portion requiring 25. Gas station for the area requiring 20 which equals a total of 45. The number appeared excessive since in all likelihood people buying gas remain parked at the gas pumps. There’s a great deal of truth behind that. I have almost no parking stalls being used. Walk in the store. Pay and leave their bill. There’s 16 spaces at the pump. Based on that method of calculation the City Council approved 44. And again essentially as we walk through we count 44 there. I’m questioning whether we actually need a variance. There’s the ability to have 44 vehicles in there being serviced. Papke: You counted 44. Staff does not count 44. From the way I understand it. Because you were counting the spaces in the drive thru area, etc and I don’t believe, according to city code, that the city planning staff counts those. You’ve taken certain liberties with your mathematics. Mark Leutem: Okay. Alright, do we need to come up with 3 more spaces or? I mean I guess basically as far as the vehicles we’re serving, we’re serving 44 vehicles. We could have 44 vehicles in there, so if you take this format and bring in 44 vehicles, they would all fit in there being serviced. If you go back to the non-drive thru, we would have 44 vehicles being serviced. Do you see my point? Papke: No. Lynne Etling: I can just tell you parking was tight when… Mark Leutem: Well let me address the issue too. Papke: If you would refrain from making comments… Mark Leutem: There are 3 vacant spots on the other side of the mall. This was designed to carry the capacity you know. Papke: I don’t think it’s worth our while to belabor you know how we count the spaces. I think city staff sat down and made their calculations and if you’d like to disagree with how they arrived at that number, perhaps you can take that off line but the proposal we have in front of us tonight has a certain way of counting the spaces and that’s the way our city codes read and that’s how the proposal in front of us was constructed so. Mark Leutem: Do I need to add 3 parking stalls? Papke: Well the city staff proposal is for the diagonal parking spaces of which there are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 of them. That’s what the city staff originally proposed. 15 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Mark Leutem: But the city staff demolishes a whole bunch of parking across the front of the building too. Papke: Correct. Mark Leutem: I think there’s a way to add 3 stalls in here to come to 44 which Sharmeen said in the report. Papke: It’s been my experience that it’s not a good practice to try to design a new proposal live in a Planning Commission meeting like this. You know you have a proposal on the table. The city staff has a somewhat different proposal that they had originally proposed to you. If you would like to withdraw your application and go back to the drawing board and come before us again, we can table your proposal and redo this but. Mark Leutem: The problem with that is we’re out of time because you can only haul asphalt til Thanksgiving and then he’s. Papke: I understand that and you’re at a fork in the road here. You can either go with the proposal that’s on the table right now, or you can put, you can table it. We can table this and you can make an amendment to it and bring it to us again. It’s your choice. I mean you’re the applicant. And we’re here to try to make this work for you but you know we can’t design a new proposal in real time at a Planning Commission meeting. It just doesn’t work. Mark Leutem: Would you recommend I table and come back with something else? Papke: This is your choice. Mark Leutem: Well I don’t know what to do. Like I said this is my first time doing anything like this so. Papke: Sure. Mark Leutem: But we’re very tight and we’re very desperate at this point. I mean we’ve got to get something to get this done, and again I look at the parking issue, if you were to spend a day at our place, I mean we have so much parking it’s unbelievable and I understand the projections based on models and what not but again, when we look at practical application we just don’t see how we would accommodate. He can’t even accommodate, he fills up those spots in front in there and puts 3 in his drive thru, he can’t even accommodate all those people in his store. Papke: The issue here is you have a Planned Unit Development and a site plan that stipulate certain constraints, okay. And just because you don’t happen to be filling up all those parking spots right now doesn’t really allow you to now nullify that initial Planned Unit Development. A system that’s in place. Mark Leutem: Alright. So if we table today, what happens then? 16 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Papke: Sharmeen? Fauske: Chair Papke, if I could just have a point of clarification. Papke: Sure, go ahead. Fauske: Thank you. On page 11 of the report, under site plan amendment. One of the staff’s proposed conditions of approval, number 3, is that replacement parking must be shown on the plan. So in the conditions of approval staff has provided the Planning Commission with a recommendation that would accommodate what the applicant is looking for as far as providing the 3 additional parking stalls that are in question at this point. Papke: Okay. Mark Leutem: So I understand you’re saying it could be approved conditionally? That I could come up with the additional stalls. Keefe: It says that you’d need to prove. Mark Leutem: Prove that I can produce 3 more stalls. Keefe: …plan that accommodates the parking requirements. Mark Leutem: Okay. I can come up with that very quickly. Keefe: That’s what you would need to do based upon that. Papke: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good point. I thank you for clarifying that. Mark Leutem: Thank you. Lynne Etling: Can I say one more thing? Papke: Sure, yeah. We have not closed the public hearing yet. Lynne Etling: You know the reason why I’m here today is because of the neighborhood and the people in the neighborhood, and I think that too many times when we come to meetings like this we focus on the here and now and not the future, and that’s how so many corporations or so many cities and whatever you would call, I don’t know this area but get in trouble because they don’t plan. They think Milio’s going to be there and that’s going to be great, but what happens if somebody else comes in? You know what happens 5 or 10 years down the road? This site is just not made for a drive thru and it should have been stacked from the beginning for that. You should have had the hindsight to do that, but my last question to everyone is, how many drive thru’s in the state of Minnesota have people walking through them to get into the building? I 17 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 think that says it all. It’s just not safety wise it’s not right. So thank you. I’m sorry but you’ve got to think of the future. Papke: Thanks. Anyone else? It’s a good discussion. Okay. Seeing none I close the public hearing and bring it back to the commissioners for discussion and a vote. Anyone like to start? Denny, go ahead. Laufenburger: I just want to share a personal experience that I have in a, in my work day I often enter a drive thru area. It’s a coffee shop and the cars stack in front of the parking which is adjacent to the entry to the drive thru. So in other words the cars are stacking much like they would here. First of all I don’t think there’s a concern for people who may be walking there because the cars are stopped and they’re very attentive to other people so, notwithstanding the resident’s concern there, I don’t think that’s a big issue. I think many of the drive thru’s, fast foods like Burger King and stuff, people are walking between cars so whether it’s, it may not be right but certainly it is, in my view, it’s safe. Right now I’m thinking I’d like to approve this. That’s just kind of my intent. And with the stipulation that they come up with 3 more parking places somehow. Thomas: I’m having a problem with the stacking of the vehicles. Just because you’re blocking people in who are going to be, who are, I mean we can say it all we want that we will never see 6 cars there but that doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s what’s going to happen. I mean potentially you could get a lot of great traffic and I mean it doesn’t, it really doesn’t almost matter if it’s Milio’s or somebody else that, if we’re going to have people stacking there and then they’re blocking other spots or if anybody else comes in there, that’s a problem and we can’t be just, we can’t say that the parking through the drive thru is a parking space. That’s 3 extra spaces. I mean I can’t park there. You know I mean you’d have to be through the drive thru so that’s not a parking space. So I’m having some issues with that I think at the moment. I think that’s about it. Undestad: I seem to be having issues with just about everything I see. You know the cars parking or stacking out into a parking lot where if somebody else has to get out. People usually need, typically coming out of those areas, they’ve got a half hour for lunch, 45 minutes. Somebody parking in there with a stack of cars, I’ve got to get out of here and get to work. Okay, you back up. You back up and you move out of the way. I have issues with that. You know the walking, anytime you have pedestrians walking, you if everybody’s paying attention or not, I think the majority of drive thru’s have avoided any of the pedestrian traffic cutting through drive lanes where they’re at in there. The number of stores that have drive in’s, that don’t have drive in’s. Out of 50 stores, 12 have drive in’s and you know, and they’re all still in business and they’ve all been doing very well. The other sandwich shops in town, the other restaurants we have around here that don’t have drive thru’s have been around here for quite a while and they’re still going seemingly okay. The city staff’s recommendation doesn’t seem to fit the budget for the project, so that one doesn’t work so I guess you know I say everything I’m looking at here trying to find out how this could be a good deal, I’m not finding anything right now so. Keefe: You’ve covered most of it for me. You know I’m not sure what’s changed really from 2003 and the precedence, or the concern about precedence setting that was a issue then which I 18 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 think is an issue now and you know Subway’s open and Jimmy John's open. They seem to like that area. Maybe Jimmy John's is going to move and just have their place downtown. I don’t know but Subway’s there and these guys are interested in it because all, you know there is activity there. You know would it be more successful with a drive thru? Probably. But could they make it without it? Maybe. I don’t know. It’s been a challenge. I understand it’s been a challenge in that business but I’m just not sure, I’m concerned about precedence setting and I’m not quite sure what has really changed since ’03. Papke: Just a question for Kathleen and Mark. Both of you expressed concerns with stacking and the traffic and so on. Does the staff proposal here as it’s stated in the, on page 11, would this address your concerns with the traffic and the safety? I understand Mark what you’re saying that from your perspective that’s not economically viable for the applicant. But point of clarification for staff. I mean we could approve this and if the applicant decides it’s not economically viable to implement this as stated, Milio’s could go in there with the configuration as is. You know they don’t have to build it if they don’t want to, and all we’re doing is giving them permission to do that. So I guess I want to understand from you two whether this at least meets the criteria of safety and traffic efficiency, that kind of. Undestad: I mean I don’t, I still don’t think so. When they’re stacked up right at the front door. You know I mean that’s, everybody’s got to get into the front door. With traffic constantly going, everybody’s, somebody’s on their cell phone. Somebody’s doing some, somebody with 3 kids, only has a hand on 2 of them and if it was anywhere but right at the front door, okay maybe we can look at it. Keefe: It’s not great planning. Undestad: No. No. And that’s what I was kind of looking at is it doesn’t fit. No mater how I try to make it fit. Thomas: That’s pretty much how I look at it as well, and Mark’s making a pretty good, making it easy. Yeah I mean, well just how it is just doesn’t seem economic or logical and then you’ve got with your one way traffic and trying to make sure people don’t go back that way, I just am concerned that it’s, I’m not sure how it would work within the building site. I mean if you park, if you go over there even during lunch, I mean it’s pretty, I mean on the other side, especially where Nick and Willy’s. Jimmy John's. It’s pretty busy and you have people going down the common drive and whipping a U turn to get out and it’s not like it’s not busy so I just am not too sure how the traffic flows in that site. Papke: Any other comments on that? Okay. I’m somewhat torn on this one. I’m pretty familiar with the site. My wife used to manage the meal assembly business in this center and so I’m familiar with the business struggles and I’d like to be accommodative. The problem I have is, as I stated a little bit earlier, I’ve never seen a drive thru exit out through a gas station like this and I just, I just am having real problems with that and we mentioned that before this was a Mexican restaurant. I’ve actually remember before it was a Mexican restaurant. I mean this would be the third business in the same location and if this turns into a Dunn Brothers or something in 5 years through a sub-lease, you know we could ostensibly see a lot of traffic through this area and I 19 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 think it could be a real nightmare. So I’m torn on this one but I have real concerns with the traffic flow. Even with the proposals from staff so. Any other discussions or comments from the commissioners before we put it to a vote? Laufenburger: I think I have a question for staff. Papke: Sure. Laufenburger: You described this area as, I may not get my terms right Sharmeen but a neighborhood services, is that correct? Al-Jaff: Correct. Laufenburger: Okay. So the city would consider this to be servicing the neighborhood. Okay. We’ve heard the applicant say that the interest he has is the two right turns so clearly the applicant is interested. And by the way, whatever we call it, people make 2 right turns. Go down the common drive and go into Jimmy John's and whatever else is there, Nick and Willy’s, so they’re making those 2 right turns. Papke: Any other comments from the commissioners? Alright, if someone would like to make a motion to approve or deny the request, I will entertain one. Undestad: I’ll make a motion. So if we go with Sharmeen, this side then? Al-Jaff: Yes. Undestad: I recommend the, or the Planning Commission recommends that the City Council deny Site Plan Amendment Planned Unit Development Amendment and Variance 2008-22. Papke: Is there a second? Thomas: Second. Undestad moved, Thomas seconded that the Planning Commission recommends that the City Council deny the Planned Unit Development amendment for Arboretum Village (PUD 99-02), Planning Case #08-22 based on the Findings of Fact for denial. All voted in favor, except Commissioner Laufenburger who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. Papke: Motion carries 1, 2, 3, 4 to 1. Al-Jaff: Can you adopt the findings as well please. I’m sorry. Papke: Thank you for that clarification. Al-Jaff: For denial. 20 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Undestad: Findings of Fact numbers 1 through 8. Papke: We don’t need a separate vote for that. We’ll just make that part of it. Alright. That matter is closed. Sharmeen, could you explain for all of us what the applicant’s next steps are in this particular case, since we denied this. Al-Jaff: Your recommendation will be forwarded to the City Council. City Council will be th reviewing this application on November 10. Papke: Okay. So the applicant, you have a chance at that point to make your case to the City Council and it’s their power to over ride us. Our recommendations are advisory only and the City Council can make up their own mind on this matter. But they do of course carefully review our comments and issues so. Okay. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Commissioner Thomas noted the verbatim and summary minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated October 7, 2008 as presented. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: Laufenburger: I have a question. Papke: Yes. Laufenburger: And this may be a question for staff. I see various signs up around Chanhassen that indicate space for lease. Are these signs governed by, they’re right next to the monument sign. Are these signs governed, the placement and size, governed by current city ordinances? Al-Jaff: Yes they are. Laufenburger: Okay. So they are generally placed by the property owner, the commercial developer, is that correct? Al-Jaff: Correct, and they have to be placed on the parcel where you have the vacancy. Laufenburger: Do they make application for placement of those signs or do they just do it assuming the? Al-Jaff: No. These type of signs are allowed… Laufenburger: For a certain period of time? Al-Jaff: Correct. Laufenburger: Okay. 21 Planning Commission Meeting - October 21, 2008 Al-Jaff: Or until a certain amount of space, of the space has been leased. Or until X number of lots have been sold. So it depends on the type of sign that is advertising lease or sale. Laufenburger: Okay. That’s all I needed to know. Papke: Okay. Any other items to be discussed? Chairman Papke adjourned the Planning Commission meeting at 8:10 p.m. Submitted by Kate Aanenson Community Development Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 22