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PRC 2002 08 27CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 27, 2002 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Amy O'Shea, Glenn Stolar, Paula Atkins, Tom Kelly and David Happe MEMBERS ABSENT: Jack Spizale STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent (The recording of this meeting was of poor quality and therefore some discussion is not complete.) APPROVAL OF AGENDA: As presented. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Happe moved, Stolar seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated July 23, 2002 as submitted. All voted in favor and the motion carried. REGIONAL TRAIL S - 2002-2003 WINTER TRAIL ACTIVITIES PERMIT. Hoffman: Chair Franks, members of the commission. Each year the city has made application to utilize the South LRT as a snowmobile trail just for our section of the community. And then it does continue to the west into Chaska, but only along the ditch of State Highway 212. Many years ago Eden Prairie determined that snowmobiles were no longer going to be allowed in the city at all, and now they have what would be commonly referred to as a trailer ordinance where you need to take the snowmobile from the city and you put it on a trailer and you take it out a designated trail head or another location. In Chanhassen we still have a few minor trail connections, snowmobile trail connections. One along Highway 5. One going down south and connecting with Pioneer Trail, and then dumping down at the Pioneer bridge at the LRT and then continuing out to the west. The Snowmobile Club has always been interested in preserving that ability to snowmobile out of the city to the trails to the west as long as possible. To date this has not posed any great problems. If you think about it in the terms of once they get there, there's really no problem. It's getting there that causes the minor problems. If there are any existing in that area, and each year there certainly are property issues with people snowmobiling in property along the ditch line .... since '94 that this permit has been approved by Hennepin Parks, now Three Rivers Park District, and we have made application for it. The requirements are that we must sign it which the snowmobile club signs the trail and they have a list of the rules that apply to the trails as part of your packet. And then the city provides liability insurance which we do in two installs. One goes up the first.., goes through the end of the season. The only other trail comment I'll make about snowmobiling and jet skiing in the city is, fortunately we live in climate that has seasons because just about the time complaints reach.., snow melts, or the ice comes so Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 it's a tough issue to manage.., offer that service we feel it's appropriate. With that it's recommended that the commission recommend to the City Council that they submit an application to the Hennepin Regional Park District, now Three River Park District for the use of the southem LRT trail located in Chanhassen as a designated snowmobile trail and that would be limited to 2002-2003 season. And I'll answer any questions the commission may have. Kelly: One question I've got. The connector comes on Pioneer Trail. I think last winter, that has been plowed.., the snowmobiles get there. Hoffman: Probably in the opposite ditch line. The south ditch line. Kelly: Okay. Because I know I was thinking Eden Prairie either plowed that LRT trail north of Pioneer all last winter. Franks: Any other questions for staff'? Stolar: What is the cost for that liability policy? Hoffman: Nothing. Stolar: Justpart ofthe overall. Hoffman: It's a rider on the policy. O'Shea: I have one quick thing. That doesn't intersect with any trail, running or walking trail does it? Hoffman: No. O'Shea: There's no chance of a runner being. Hoffman: Well there's mixed use on there. There are certain people who choose to use it for walking. In fact there are quite a few people who choose to walk and somebody quoted the other day that it's such a great walking route because the snowmobiles pack it down. And there are some people that use it as cross country skiing, but the primary use of it, that would be walking dogs I believe. But the permit does not allow us to advertise for any other use... O'Shea: Do they know that risk? I'm just thinking that a snowmobile coming at 40 miles an hour and somebody skiing. Hoffman: They're skiing on a snowmobile trail. O'Shea: Okay. That would be my concern, even with signs there's a chance that somebody walking their dog or skiing will collide so that would be a concern. I don't know how you'd control that. Hoffman: It's been operating that way for what, 8 years now. Kelly: ...just announcing when it opens for a snowmobile trail and that will...in the paper. Hoffman: We can submit a. Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Kelly: Rec notice or something. Franks: Do you include these type of things on the web site as well? Hoffman: We have the trail section on there. Franks: Yeah. On the new one. Ruegemer: This is the first winter we'll have it so. Franks: It's just something to consider if it fits in. Hoffman: I think a general observation...that this is a snowmobile trail and... Normally peak hours on there are weekends or evenings when... Franks: Any further questions for staff'? Seeing that there's no members of the audience here to address the commission on this item, we'll just bring it right back and are there any comments from commissioners? Happe: I'm assuming that there weren't any complaints from last year that we need to be aware of as we get ready to approve this or recommend this application. Franks: We've had some comments about snowmobile usage within the city but not in accordance with this trail. Hoffman: Early on we had a lot of concern when this first was permitted and we had one property owner that had complaints and.., were included in the packet. Franks: Any other commissioner comments? Alright, seeing none. Is there a motion? Happe: I move that the commission recommend to the City Council that they submit an application for the Suburban Hennepin Regional Park District for use of the southem LRT trail located in Chanhassen as the designated snowmobile trail for this coming winter. Franks: Is there a second? Kelly: Second. Happe moved, Kelly seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council submit an application to the Suburban Hennepin Regional Park District for use of the southern LRT trail located in Chanhassen as a designated snowmobile trail. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote o1'6 to 0. Franks: No Snowmobile Club members want to come in. Happe: Is that a pretty big club? Hoffman: Oh yeah. Happe: Who heads it up? Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Hoffman: They switch around. They meet at the.., occasionally we put it in your admin packet. REVIEW FINAL DRAFT, 2003 PARK AND TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM (CIP). Hoffman: Chair Franks, members of the commission. The report is broken into primary components, and then along with the... Just briefly what I attempted to present this evening is the results of the comments that were made at the June meeting by the commission and then making some switches. Basically one switch or some dollars that were allocated for the City Center Park for a park building, the Bandimere Park from staff's directive is seeing a tremendous amount of use and the dollars that would be invested in such a building would be put to better use at Bandimere Park currently then at City Center Park. There is also as part of a reaching question of the final design of the road system and parking around City Hall as it has to do with the library, so putting a $275,000 structure in the middle of that plan when we're not sure what's going to happen, probably is premature at this time. The proposed 2003 park and trail CIP totals $893,000 which was an aggressive CIP for the commission. Of that amount $620,000 is proposed to be funded from park dedication fees. And then the remaining $273,000 is proposed to be part of... This allocation is...look at comparisons is $38,000 more than the funds annual income average for the past 4 years and I think the average annually $572,000 gives you one perspective. Second sense is if you want to compare this again to the current cash balance, which is about $1.8 million following the completion of the Highway 101 north trail which everyone is seeing is under construction. And the south 101 south trail, taxes eamed in the park dedication...million dollars. And so you can start to do the math a variety of ways. You can take that whole million and take away the other $93,000, you're about emptying the piggy bank down to zero and then hopefully you're adding back in, in a year's income, approximately $500,000 back. So if you take a look at it in the vast, in that kind of frame, we're investing a good deal of money in park trail improvements and this year will be no exception .... park dedication fund at approximately a half a million dollars giving an average year in park dedication fund. And all the reasons are pretty basic. The 101 north trail is going to cost somewhere between a halfa million and $700,000. Probably closer to a halfa million dollars by the time it's all said and done. And if you take that in one project. The 101 south trail and Highway 5 connector's our big project and a project that we're looking at this evening, a very aggressive project as well, especially the Bandimere Community Park. The other big item on the list, and then I'll go quickly through the rest is the Lake Ann Park and resurfacing of the parking lot and road. The original part of the park that you see out there today dates back to 1971 when that asphalt was put in. That's original. It's not been taken out. It's approximately 2 to 2 V2 inches and it's completely failed in most areas and... alligatored to the point where it looks like it's just chunks of asphalt put together in a random pattem. And then of course that foot path a 50/50 park dedication, 50 fund allocation for $240,000. We go back to the top and we have the Bandimere Community shelter, which would be a full service shelter of 275. The Chan Rec Center has a couple of allocations. The $15,000 carpet replacement is really untouchable. It needs to be...pulled out in the past few years and it's starting to give way at the entrance of the facility. Curry Farms Park and Meadow Green Park and the first two of what will need to be 10 playground replacements in the city of wood playgrounds. These are not wood...playgrounds, which would be redwood playgrounds which installation started in 1986 for those structures and ended at about 1994-1996. So for approximately a 10 year period of time we purchased only redwood...playground structures. And what we see in those is excessive wear in the play areas, and then what we would call...flaring where a child will get multiple small slivers in their hands or thighs generally. Sometimes in their forearms because of the wood and what we would do periodically is flip the wood over or flip the rounds over on the playground.., and then sand them but it's a fairly intensive maintenance wise. Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 These playgrounds also experience frost heaving where the frost grabs onto the poles and shoots them up and out of the ground in pressure ridge and come out...putting those back into the ground. Rethreading the posts and just spending a whole lot of labor on these types of playgrounds where.., metal playgrounds and plastic, they are much more easily maintained. Meadow Green and Curry Farms, the reason the numbers are fairly high. Traditionally we think we can get a pretty nice playground for $30,000 but what we see today are those costs have risen closer to $40,000. And we also need to include approximately $10,000 and maybe a little more for the concrete border that we're putting around the playgrounds that you see at Bandimere. Sugarbush Park, Minnewashta Park and just an excellent way to install the border. No wood. No plastic. Plastic...frost heave out of the ground and break. For short term they're a good solution but long term they're not a good solution. We have some picnic table allocations... Skate park allocation. Two trail projects and we'll briefly go over those. Highway 41 connectors. What we have today is we've got a trail that comes down along Longacres for about a block and a half along Highway 41, and then just to the south of that Pulte Homes is... so we'll have two pieces of trail separated by about 3 blocks, 4 blocks that need to be connected so all those people can...running and walking route. It's in a state highway right-of-way. It's not on city property. It's not on Pulte property. So for you to make a connection...trail program so the city will need to pay for it .... similar to the trail we're doing right now on 101 and it will cost approximately $90,000 due to the terrain and the retaining walls that will need to go in to build these trails. The other connection are two that were not connected as a part of this year's 101 north trail. 101 north trail will terminate at the north end of 101 at Pleasant View Road and so I feel fairly strongly that we should take it from the north side of Pleasant View down to the Near Mountain connection... There also is going to be continued north... 101 down to Town Line Road to make a connection to the Minnetonka trail on Highway 101 north and then up in the neighborhood along Town Line Road to allow for that...trail continue north. The final acquisition, a three year replacement program for trash receptacles.., blue barrels to green barrels with the trash covers on them. And the tree planting, we continue to... commentary that is provided there... I would ask that the commission consider forwarding to the City Council. If you would like to make changes.., discuss that prior to doing that. Franks: Thank you Todd. A couple of, I'll just start out with some of the questions that I have. First, I'm wondering why there was.., half and half on the Lake Ann parkway and what your reaction was to that? Hoffman: Well our S & L for the last, at least 3 years.., solely out of the general fund has been tumed away. So we've... $50,000 project which would be complete reconstruction and the installation of curbing and storm water management, down to an overlay which would most likely see a mat put over an overlay mat, and then asphalt material with no curb and gutter. One thing commissioners need to keep in mind is that I think the council is currently facing a million dollar overage without these numbers. Without, where is it? Franks: 273. Hoffman: Yep. And so they're less likely again...the testimony from staff on the budget numbers for the upcoming budget and they'll be considering sending those back...levy at their next City Council meeting. And then they're going to be wrestling with what are they going to do with the general fund. So we're going to shoot those numbers up there and ask for them. I recommend you shoot these numbers up and ask for them to be funded. I think it's...ask for the entire amount because they simply haven't been looked upon favorably in the past few years. Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Franks: I can understand that. It'sjustthatwhenllookathowyou'vebrokendownwhereyou want the funds to come from, it seems pretty clear that it follows the philosophy that this commission had talked about earlier about new acquisitions being bom principally out of the park dedication fund. Whereas maintenance and replacement are really looking at other funding source or like a general fund allocation for those. Hoffman: Yep. Franks: So that's why when I saw this 50/50, I was just like wondering what the sort of rationale was for that one but it sounded as if it was a big ticket item. That it may appear a little bit easier to swallow. My concern is that it be made clear that the philosophy is consistent with what we're trying to do and that it is the, if we approve this, the commission really endorsing, attempting to work in a cooperative way understanding the financial constraints that the council is under as well, and not that it's a statement about whenever these types of projects come up, that our philosophy of how they should be funded. Again following this pattem, I'm just wondering too, two things. This skate ramping, the new ramp coming out of the general fund and then going down to trash receptacles, which are new acquisitions as well for the parks, coming out of park dedication fund. Hoffman: The skate park...that should simply be park dedication... Franks: So that should be park dedication? Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I thought so too. Hoffman: And trash receptacles are, and you can go either way on that. Franks: I think that works for me anyway. Hoffman: The ones we have out there today were free. Franks: That's what I mean, the blue barrels. So this is essentially putting them in new for the first time. Okay. If you could for me just real briefly describe again how the 101 north connectors are fitting in. Hoffman: The trail plan? Franks: Yeah. How that effectively going north of Town Line. Hoffman: We're going to continue right ditch of 101 north right up to Town Line and make a connection that they have coming off of Minnetonka from...coming out of the north side. There may be a missing piece there in Minnetonka. Franks: Yeah. Right, that's what I'm, okay. Hoffman: We're not going to venture past that. We can hit the city boundary at Town Line so we can go there and work with Eden Prairie and Minnetonka to get their piece down but if you get to Town Line, 101 to get onto Town Line Road which will... Stolar: Yeah, I'm trying to think of the trail does go across...falls a little short. And then the other piece of it you said was going to go on the north side of Pleasant View. All the way to where the other trail kind of crosses the road there and goes into a connection to that. Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Franks: So the idea then is that would connect the Near Mountain neighborhood to the 101 trail. Hoffman: Yep. Plus a couple of other neighborhoods feed into that. Franks: Okay, thank you. Any other commission questions for staff'? Stolar: I just wanted to run some numbers again. Beginning deficit is 1.8. And then it's like 500,000 roughly is just a projection so we'll have 2.3 and out of that, how much of the 101 trail is this year's funding in 2003? Or how much of that 2.3 is taken out for the current 101 rebuilding? Hoffman: Will be billed this year? To the fund. Stolar: Yeah. I mean does the 2.3, that doesn't take into account the funding for that trail, right? Or does it? Franks: What I think Glenn is saying is that we've got a cash balance right now of 1.8 and you're expecting. Stolar: 500 in 2003. Franks: So does this 1.8 reflect 2002's income? Hoffman: No. Franks: Okay, and that will be. Hoffman: It reflects income through about June. Franks: Through June. So about halfofthe year. Stolar: So we should expect another $250,000. And then we also should expect $500,000. What I'm trying to get to is what is our December 31, 2003 balance. You say just under a million is what you'd expect it to be? Hoffman: Can't put a date to it. The way I look at it is based on projects and I'm not sure when the building will occur on the 101 north trail. So the balance, they may have not built it and I can't account for how engineering is going to do the accounting. Whether they're going to pay for that fund out of, no 101 money may come out of it by December 3 1st of this year. Stolar: Of 2003 I said. I'm looking if we do, we have all the projects we don't anticipate for, take our current balance and income, what's the end number that we will have available for 2004 for spending? Hoffman: Again estimated, we went through that. It's going to right around a half million to $700,000 more or less. Stolar: What was our total 101 trail contribution? Hoffman: North? Franks: It will be an estimated. Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Hoffman: $500,000. Stolar: If I add that 500 to the 620 or 630 that's 1.1, out of 2.3 balance that we're going to have... Hoffman: We need to pick up the rest of this year's expenditures. $200,000 for 101 south. The other things that we have in this year's budget. Stolar: Actually that's what I was.., okay. And then, in presenting this to the City Council, could we please have that balance to see what the situation is? I know they know what, but it might be good...because I am very much in support of our staying with our philosophy and so I'd be hesitant, even though you know this may be unrealistic, I still believe that we should take the Lake Ann funding and put it all in general fund. List the balance that we have at the end of the time with that, because you've already reduced the cost. Did you ever propose the 240 option to them? Or was it a full scale. So I think we take, you should take...we found a cheaper way to do it. We still have the general fund hitting this and then show what our balance is at the end and that way we're consistent with our philosophy, plus you showed a reduction in the Lake Ann resurfacing. Hoffman: I'll be glad to do that. One choice compared to how they're going to look at these kind of dollars versus what they're getting in today. Right now there's a $250,000 allocation for general fund money for road improvement, which council has been struggling with, this council has been struggling with for over a year. They've gone through an assessment policy where there's going to be a certain portion of those street improvements assessed and then this is the city allocation. And they're having a very difficult time keeping that $250,000 in there. You have $250,000 is a quarter of the million that is currently up and beyond what they've had to deal with in the past year. So we're going to put it into the mix and then take some, the commission's going to have to talk to their council members to make sure they understand the importance of the improvements and the philosophies that it be taken out of the general fund allocation... Stolar: Are you making an analogy here though that like the city would assess a neighborhood to repair their road, this is our assessment for our park to pay for their road to be fixed? City pays part, we pay part. Is that how you're approaching it? Hoffman: No. Stolar: You're just saying you want to do whatever's realistic to try to get the money. Hoffman: What I've come down to is the Lake Ann Park is, I'm just tried of seeing the black eye on Lake Ann Park. It's a beautiful, beautiful park and we have a piece of junk road that goes into it. I want to get it repaired, and I've reminded the council in their line of progression that even, we go down to a 240, we're buying a half of a job. And so the thing will maybe be done in maybe 10 or 15 years instead of 30 years to do a complete reconstruction so we're just buying a quick fix at 240. Stolar: I know we're opening the gate, but then that's just going to open wider. Hoffman: Tonight's very...very little money's been allocated out of the general fund. The maximum that the Park and Recreation Department has received a general fund allocation for capital items has been... Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Stolar: Part of the other part of my saying what's the end balance, as we talked about before, there may be the reality that we won't have enough for what we need and we'll have to revisit that with, eventually with a bond or some other approach. And I'm worried about going against our philosophy here about repairs and maintenance without that piece of... To say all repair and maintenance you go to the citizens and ask for funding for repair and replacement. Great, then this can be thrown in there, but until that time I'd prefer approaching it with our philosophy. Franks: Thank you Glenn. Any other questions? Kelly: Yeah I was wondering, do we have to worry about City Center Park coming out of the park dedication in 2004? City Center Park has a pretty big price tag on it. That could take a majority of whatever balance is coming out of 2004, which what will leave us with almost nothing for the remainder of 2004. Hoffman: Presently it's unclear how much of that allocation will be out of 410 or how much will come out of the general fund or how much will come out of the library budget and that's an administrative project managed by the manager. But at some point they will pay the project... but it's going to go higher than that... Kelly: I was just curious. It's something, it seems like a pretty high price tag item for 2004. Also on the Curry Park and Meadow Green, are they going to be Bandimere quality of play areas and surface? Is it going to be that foam surface that they have at Bandimere? Hoffman: No, it'd be similar to the other neighborhood parks where the new one, the concrete border and then pea gravel surface. And the play structure would be more like a Sugarbush or Roundhouse. Not the sky tower you see at Bandimere. We'd like to continue putting that rubber material in all the community parks. The problem is when you see the surfacing in concrete, it's almost equivalent to the cost of the structure, which we receive a 50 percent discount, but still it's very, it costs $40,000, equivalent to $40,000... O'Shea: I have one comment on the rec center. With the fitness center currently being the major money or revenue producer, and the community center being down the road a few years, would it make sense to even buy more cardiovascular equipment? Where you take another space and maybe you have 10 or 12 even additional cardiovascular. My fear is, because it's crowded, that it's not serving the needs of people that want to work out. If you don't do that, are we going to see a slip in attendance. Hoffman: That's a philosophical question that staff`has talked about since the opening of the center. Council has struggled with and what I think the best way to look at it is to remind ourselves that deriving profits at the rec center is not the primary focus. It's a balanced facility and when it was built the meeting room spaces, which are the only spaces that you could expand in, were the primary goal of the community. The city was very deficient in meeting space for a variety of community groups...and any other small fitness room... The fitness room has reached a very good equilibrium. We receive very few complaints about that it's crowded because people realize that if it doesn't fit their schedule.., they've bought $20 worth of punches and they.., when they're gone and that's not a huge...because it can only fit so many people.., go to Eden Prairie has private clubs, Chaska and other facilities. If we expand and take the community room out and that is, that provides...detriment to our community space needs, which are very important to the city. About the second year that the community or the recreation center opened, the City Council took a look at the balance sheet and said the facility is not making enough money. We Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 had a goal or thought that we should make more money when we opened it compared to what we end up in each year in staffing and other costs. Today it's about a quarter million dollar operation and we make $175,000...second year of operation the council make more money. Kick those freebies out and find new paying customers, which staff did. Resulted in a huge outcry from those groups, the school groups, the community groups. Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, all those people were upset and said hey, you built a recreation center here for the community. We want access to it. We don't care if it's losing...we want to be there with our community group...it would be very easy to do but I'm not sure that's in the best interest of the community to do that. It seems to be working. The City Manager asked the same question, and it would take some investigation to decide whether or not that would be a good idea. Atkins: Do you think it's worth investigating? Hoffman: I don't get the feel that it is because the room we struggle with most is the meeting room space. That's where we have the most need and we need more of that kind of space, and I'm sure... I'm not quite sure that is the philosophy of what the recreation center... Atkins: Yeah... general public views it that way. I think they think they paid for a rec center... join a club it costs them more money but that is... so I don't know. Hoffman: Just a punch card. That's really the best thing about the rec center, people don't pay a membership fee. They don't pay to join... The other part that goes along with that is they'll never pay back your capital investment .... $30,000 or $40,000 worth of cardio machines, at 2 bucks a piece we're not going to pay back our capital investment... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Franks: Let's bring it back to the commission for comments. Go ahead. Happe: I'll start. Highway 101 north and south I think are an excellent use of dollars that we have available. I think it's pretty central to the mission of Park and Rec. We continue to expand the infrastructure of trails. That being said, that's not really part of these dollars we're looking at tonight. I have difficulty with the fact that we're going to propose a budget that has us spending more than our income. We're asking for, if we take the Lake Ann Park issue and set it aside, to come back to later in our dialogue, we're still asking for $653,000 in overall spending against an anticipated income over a 4 year history of $582,000 annually. So we're asking for council's approval or permission for whatever reason to spend more than our income. Bandimere park shelter ought to cost us $275,000. That would be a spectacular addition to the community but the council is going to take a look at areas or opportunities to pull back, I think it's, when we talk about the Lake Ann issue, I think it's unrealistic. If we even put more weight on general fund's shoulders, I think it's unrealistic to expect that we're going to have our needs met with us trying to get that road built or fixed. The cuts that the council's facing one million dollar overage to that general fund before our request fully hits their desk. The max that they have allocated in years past to spend out of the general fund is $30,000 and if you take the Lake Ann Park spending that we're asking for and set that aside, we're still asking for, I don't have the calculation of what the total dollars are that we're asking to come out of the general fund. Stolar: It's like $143 if you take the 10 and move it for the park dedication. Happe: So we're asking for considerably more than has ever been approved to come out of the general fund before the Lake Ann project even hits the table. So I guess preliminarily it's my Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 opinion that we should strive to present the budget that's at least consistent with what we anticipate our income to be. I realize Todd that we're spending that savings that has been in this account for many years, and actually it increased every year for the past 10 years. It is being spent. I think it's being spent by the council in areas that are not inconsistent with park and rec, especially the 101 trail project, but I'd just like to ask our commission to greatly consider trying to submit a budget proposal that's at least representative of the amount of income that we expect park and trail dedication fees to generate so that we're not helping to add to a deficit or a funding problem for the council, but we can actually be part of the solution to that. That being said Chairman Franks I don't have specifics that could be brought up to start part of the conversation from the other commissioners as to what some of the areas of opportunities to look at where we could cut some of this spending money come from. I'm open to suggestions and ideas and don't have a strong feeling about any particular area or any sacred cow that I'd like to keep in the budget, but I would like to submit a budget that is a little bit more appropriate to our anticipated income. Franks: Thanks Dave. Amy, any comments? O'Shea: Yeah, I have just a couple. I think it is important to make sure that we state our philosophy on the Lake Ann. That we're not agreeing. That we would like to see these funds spent on maintaining or improving the road. So I think with that noted, I think we should also look at what has been funded. It needs to be done and I trust...if it all was proposed from the general fund so I would go with Todd's recommendation, but definitely noted that we are not changing our philosophy and that's something we should, we're talking about in September. And make sure that the council knows how strongly the commission feels on that. I see all this as a need to be done and Dave, if you're right about spending. I guess what I'd like to see is, because this is a new dilemma for this commission that that generating money.., we need to look at how we can change the way we operate and how we can somehow continue to generate money. I don't have the answer but I think we need to look at that and change our thought on, we aren't going to have this stream of income coming that we have been so we can't sit back and not do anything. We definitely need to brainstorm with staff or however the procedure would work of how we can produce from another way than what's been done in the past. But I really don't see things that aren't needed on this list so those are my comments. Franks: Thanks. Todd I thought, I think it's a good list. I think that these projects that you've outlined are all necessary and important and it's a great place to start. I appreciate Dave your comment about spending within our means, and if we can have an average expected income of over $500,000, that's kind of a target to shoot for generally speaking. Just to add a little insight to that, and you alluded to it a little bit, is that over the course of a number of years, the commission has intentionally spent less than the income that is expected to draw into the fund just for the purpose to be able to fund projects as they came up at a time when it was right and necessary. And it's really my opinion that as we are right on the cusp of this, our growth curve, that the time to really tackle these projects is now and that's the reason why the fund balance sits where it's at. To handle these types of projects and so, it's also the reason why I think we're struggling with this idea of replacement and maintenance not being funded from new park dedication dollars. Again if we look at subtracting $140,000 from the amount that you've proposed to come out of park dedication funds, the $620,000, we're back down to $500,000. Which then is within the park dedication amount within the kind of budget idea that you've set by spending within our income. And really looking at the city as a whole city and responsible to maintain the park infrastructure that we've built, which the whole city gets to utilize and enjoy as well. I am in agreement I think with Glenn that we should make a statement with the Lake Ann roadway, and really suggest that that be funded from general fund dollars. I'm also a realist, understanding that Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 the council's going to look at that and have some problems with that. But it's our, in my opinion it's this commission's responsibility to look after the welfare of the park system and how that should be taken care of. The council's responsibility is to see that larger picture, and if it's a decision that they make to fund that in some different way, well then they've received the input from this body that we think it's the best way to do it. Then they've got that piece of information to use in their decision making process. I'm hesitant to begin to make those decisions for the City Council when in a sense we have some understanding of how that should, although quite possibly will not occur. I don't see also anything on the list that we should subtract at Bandimere Park. We get that shelter in, it's just going to totally increase that usage and make it a premiere sports facility in town here. Todd, when you'd talking about full shelter, we're talking sanitary sewer and water and the whole bit. Hoffman: Listed under the current picnic shelter, the amenities would include the covered picnic shelter, modem restrooms, concession space, storage space and... Sewer and water is already stubbed out right underneath where the building would be. There's that large irrigation box which is currently there. Those irrigation controls would be built right into the structure when we have... Franks: The one hit that we weren't necessarily expecting because we had no idea when it was really going to come, and this commission really didn't have in my opinion a tremendous amount of input in it's coming about was the 101 north trail...but I mean that's just a reality that needs to go in. It should have gone in a long time ago. It's a good thing, but I think that leads to that perception that wow, we're irresponsibly spending a lot of money from the fund, when in a sense it's because of the responsibility of past commissions that we're able to fund these sorts of projects all at once. So that's enough out of me. Let's move on. Tom, you're supposed to shut me up when I drone. Kelly: I don't really have much to add. I agree that these are great projects. What I...is Bandimere being so expensive but I mean there was so much activity there, there's absolutely no shade at all and it would just be great to have that shelter there .... the City Council that we aren't crazy about doing a 50/50 split on Lake Ann but if that's what needs to get done to make that parking area look better, then if we have the money, we probably should try to do it. Atkins: Well all this talk about figures is really giving me a headache because my area of expertise are all, I'm a little bit lost here. I was curious about the figure for the park dedication fund, but I gleaned that from listening to you guys that this list seems, I mean it's really been whittled down from the first list you gave us a couple months ago so obviously it's prioritized very well. The skate ramp I have a comment. Is it possible to do a fundraiser or have the kids do a fundraiser to get a skate ramp or something like that in order to trim some money off? I don't know if things like that are possible. If the council doesn't approve this, then what happens? Do we have to trim it then ourselves? Hoffman: Well...we want you to reduce it or this is the reductions that we're going to make so... Atkins: If Bandimere, when someone holds, a group holds a toumament there, do they pay a fee for usage? Ruegemer: To rent the facility? No. Atkins: If there was a park shelter there, would there be a fee applied like there is at the other shelter? Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Hoffman: There could be. Atkins: I'm just curious. Hoffman: Similar to Lake Ann. Atkins: Yeah. And with the picnic tables and benches, are they new? Those are new acquisitions, not replacing. Or replacing old or putting more new or? Hoffman: Both. Some of both. I explained in we have maximum attrition where we get rid of the old equipment and then we also add annual growth in our park system which requires additional seating. Seating is one of the most common things that's requested because in order to experience the park, people need a place to sit, put their picnic.. The trail systems in the park have become more popular to put these in .... picnic table and a bench, they're about 500 bucks a piece... Atkins: And the only other thing is, I'm leaming all the time so this council meeting's going to be very enlightening. That's all I have. Franks: Thanks. Glenn. Stolar: Just a few things. Again I compliment staff`on whittling it down is hard because everything is good. Everything helps our park system and so it's very difficult. I mentioned about what I felt about Lake Ann. I think we need to stick by our philosophy there. I don't know Todd if you have discussions when they bring it up. For example if they ask that question you at least have the opportunity to provide feedback to them. Hoffman: Typically we have one opportunity a year for that. Maybe two during the budget process. Commissioner O Shea brought up a great comment that September 30 is coming around. That's one of your discussion topics for that evening. Give you an idea how this council, how they.., and the Lake Ann Park building is sitting there today because of the general fund so that's a million dollar general fund investment in the city's park system so when I say $30,000, that...this type of work. The Lake Ann park shelter, or park maintenance program has been... paid for solely out of the general fund. It paid for a section of the Lake Ann road and the building of the maintenance structure itself so... Stolar: I also I'd like to agree with David's comments that we have a budget conscience here. The distinction here is no matter what we do, we're going to run out of money. We're not going to be able to meet it so... spend it now and let's deal with the bond issue quick. How do we pay for this in the future when the growth stops? And my experience in Eden Prairie, that's exactly how they did it. They said we're going to spend because that's our philosophy and we're going to go back and say okay, but the growth has stopped. Our source of funding has stopped. Do we need another source? And the reality is to...but I do think if we take away Lake Ann we're down to not quite under 500, with 500 the projection. If you put the projection at 5 t0, we'd be at 5 t0... I also think, and you and I had talked about this in a sense. IfI looked at the criteria for how we should spend our money, we have some various things. We have safety issues. We have access issues, enhanced usage, and repair and replacement and I put repair and replacement different than safety. Those are things that you need to do because of safety reasons and there are those that you need to do because of longevity issues so I can't say for sure on the park benches but once they become an ugly eyesore and really need to replace them, that's repair and replacement Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 versus the playground equipment where there's a safety issue. And we mainly address the safety issue. Park dedication historically it sounded has been really focused on some of the access issues like longer trail system where we enhance the parks or create some new parks and access and safety seem to be my top priorities. Now I support this plan with the one exception of the Lake Ann project. IfI have to look at anything to remove it would be enhance research because any time...I still think we have a mission to have access and we have an obligation to deal with safety. So those would be my top priorities. Franks: I'm sorry, what was that? Stolar: Our mission is to grant access and we have an obligation for safety so if any, you know we don't know what's going to come out of the City Council, so it's just personal input to the stafl~ If there's discussion at that point, that's how I feel we should prioritize. I think we should approve this, and once we get to that point I'll ask that the Lake Ann thing be adjusted, but I think we have to focus on access and safety. Hoffman: Were those before you... Stolar: There was a fifth one I can't remember what it was, but there was, yeah. I came here fresh from work and I realized I forgot the list but those are generally speaking the areas. And park dedication is set up for access. Hoffman: So we can run through the financials once more. I set it up just in basic dollar amounts.., so everybody gets a feel for that, and again these are estimates. Word of caution is that building permit activity is not at an all time high in the community. The multi-family is the only thing in town. Single family permits are flat. Industrial permits are going backwards so industrial has really driven a good deal of the revenue in those 582 type of numbers and that's just not happening .... in town will not go into new space... On the income side for 2003, we got down 1.8 and that would be current cash on hand. Point 2, which would be the remaining income in 2002, and then...point 4, which would be income in 2003. Is about cash balance again in 2003 is 2.4 or cash balance of income. In that same approximate time period would be .7 million in 2003 based on the plan that you have before you today. Point 3 add in in 2002 remaining, and that's not including 101, so .3 for the other things that we're doing. Point 5 for 101. And .2 for City Center, if that would be an allocation that is taken out of there for a total of 1.7, so we have a difference of approximately...in 2003. Franks: I'm sorry, what was that again? Hoffman: $700,000. 1.7versus .4. Franks: At the end of 2003. Hoffman: 2003. That being the perspective.., and this is all responsible investments and it's just a philosophy. It's what you want to do. The town has grown to 21,000 people. The community is asking for the reserves...community responded. The council has responded. Passed a referendum in '97...improvements. Continued on with that. The 101 north trail is absolutely going to be history in the making. At the same time we complete the 101 south trail, which has seen very little publicity but it's going to be a wonderful compliment to the system. We'll have a trail on 101 from Pioneer to Minnetonka. Pioneer Trail to Minnetonka. All the way down a state highway which is on the county trail plan and the city did it all by themselves so I think we have a lot to...philosophy. Do you want to continue to do that, or sit back and...you have porta Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 potties, you didn't have running water and you didn't have a place...headquarters and storage, and you put that kind of facility a $275,000 improvement into a park which to date has cost us 2 million dollars, it's another 14 percent to that investment and it just caps off`the park so... We have this much and we put this much more to make it just that much better. Franks: If we approve something tonight, when would it go to be considered by the council? Hoffman: Well it will be submitted to the City Manager and the Finance Director tomorrow, and then it would be put into the budget calendar and the City Council would most likely start talking about it within the next 3 to 4 weeks. Perhaps longer than that based on their work calendar... My hope would be that they would see it before the September 30th meeting. Franks: Would they act on it? Hoffman: No they would not. Franks: So they would receive our recommendation for discussion and consideration. Hoffman: They may...city manager's office and then finance director reviews it and then... Happe: Chairman Franks, one additional comment. When you look at Bandimere, it may be perceived as low hanging fruit for a city council that is looking for opportunities to see where their checkbook spending is going. So if Bandimere Community Park is something that this commission feels very strongly needs to happen in 2003, Todd I don't know if there's any way that we can enhance our position or further define our support for not only having that park shelter built, but built in 2003. Just kind of think through if we have not articulated our reasoning or our position for why that has to happen in 2003, if that wouldn't be an easy line item for a council looking for ways to turn down our proposed $893,000 total expenditures. I just don't know if you can put any additional emphasis behind the commission's request for funds for that particular facility. I likely will not vote in support of the overall budget for the reasons that I've discussed, but it's just my recommendation that the commission take a look at, see if they can raise the language of the summary that Todd put together in a way that very much conveys why we believe that that project needs to move forward in the 2003 plan. Franks: I think that staff; when this is presented to council will be able to do a pretty good job of justifying the necessity or importance of that shelter. Todd, you've done a good job of communicating that to us tonight and when that comes up I feel pretty confident you'll be able to do that. I think that is good we have these discussions on the record so as a part of our recorded minutes, that these types of ideas are down that.., if they wish to really have an understanding of where we are at exactly and how we arrive at the decision. We certainly provided our minutes and can look through them and see that pretty clearly so I appreciate you making those comments for the record and it's certainly one that I endorse as well. Is there any more discussion from the commission? Okay seeing none then I'd be interested in entertaining a motion. It's been talked about a little bit. I don't think we've quite reached consensus so it's my understanding concerning the funding for the Lake Ann Park roadway resurfacing, I think I made it clear how I feel about it. My personal feeling is that I think that we should submit to the City Council a budget that this commission feels is the best way to go about doing it to give the City Council that information for them in their decision making process. How to work from the time line. When is our meeting scheduled for? September 30th right? That before any specific action is taken by the council on our submitted budget, that we would certainly have an opportunity at that point to discuss with them the philosophy behind it. Hear their feedback and potentially request to make Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 any changes to better work in a cooperative effort with the council at that time, but I think at this stage in the game I think it'd be beneficial for us to really stick to what we see as the philosophy. ...that might be coming out is the idea between new development and replacement and repair, and also maintain some fiscal responsibility within the amount of income that we're likely to generate on a yearly basis. Given that I'm going to throw it out to anyone who feels... Stolar: May I suggest that we put this on the table as a motion and then you can amend the motion. Talk about how we finalize it. So I'd just like to move that we approve staff recommendation. Put it out there on the table and then you can offer a friendly amendment. Franks: I certainly go along with that. Stolar: I move that we approve staff`recommendation for 2003 Park and Trail Acquisition and Development Capital Improvement Program. Franks: Thank you. Is there any discussion to the. Stolar: We need a second. Franks: Yeah, is there a second? O'Shea: I second. Franks: Okay, the motion has been moved and seconded. I'll open it up then for discussion on the motion. Hoffman: Clarification on the dollar amount. The current staff`motion is park dedication $630,000...fund $263,000. The dollar amount for the thought process that all of Lake Ann should come out of the general fund would put those numbers at 510 and 33. Franks: Thank you Todd. Alright, Mr. Stolar's made a motion. It's been seconded. I've opened it up for discussion on the motion. Are you open to a friendly amendment to your motion? One that I would propose is that the entire funding for the Lake Ann Park roadway be shifted from 50 percent park dedication, 50 percent general fund to 100 percent from the general fund which would then shift the figure that's indicated by Mr. Hoff`man with the total coming out of park dedication to be $510,000. The remainder from the general fund of $383,000. Stolar: I accept that amendment. And the second accepts that change? Franks: Okay, great. We do have then a motion for consideration. We'll move the previous question. Stolar moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve a 2003 Park and Trail Acquisition and Development Capital Improvement Program totally $893,000 as detailed in the attached reports. All voted in favor, except Happe who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1. Franks: 5 for, 1 against. Dave, we'll give you the opportunity to state your objection for the record to the motion. Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Happe: I think Rod even with putting the remainder of the Lake Ann Park allocation into the general fund, my sole opposition is that we are still submitting a total spending package to the council that exceeds our projected income. While I do believe that we still have a revenue source capable of covering park and trail objectives for 2003, I believe the proposal as moved still puts us in a negative balance situation. And for that reason I am opposed to the motion. Franks: So noted. Todd we'll indicate that the motion did carry 5 to 1. Thank you. PROGRAM REPORTS: DAVE HUFFMAN 5K MEMORIAL RACE. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks and the rest of the commission. Tom and I did meet with the rest of the 5K race committee this evening at 5:15. Going over many of the details for the race coming up the 14th of September. Everyone's been kind of work around like little busy bees lately trying to accomplish their portion of the commitment they've got for the race committee. I'm going to...Todd talked about the kids fun run that was added this year. Tom is kind of chairing that component or portion of the event so I'll let him explain that here briefly. We've been working on that very hard and meeting, a lot of meetings with the Vikings, KFAN radio. I don't know if anybody's heard our spot on the radio. KFAN came to us and Dan Seaman who lives in town up in the Pheasant Hills area is the General Manager KFAN and a lot of other clear channel stations in our area. He has run the race in the past and they did come to us last year with a $2,500 donation in Dave's memory from KFAN. And then also a portion of...and wanted to know if they could do some advertising for us on the radio. We gladly accepted their free spot and they were running last week, the week before. Now we're going to have a little bit of a lull period and then they're going to start the week leading up to the event. Through that connection with KFAN we're also going to have, it looks like some type of a KFAN public, or the Vikings... Mike Morris. Superstar. It looks like he's going to lead the race...He did play with Dave kind of on the tail end of Dave's career and early to middle of Mike Morris' career so it's been a real jewel for us to kind of connect with those partnerships and it's been kind of a fun experience as well so we're still hoping on right now, we've met with the Vikings several times now and cheerleaders. We just don't know if there's going to, if they will be here. It certainly is our hope. They kind of add, Ragnar's very good with the kids last year with taking pictures and it's our hope that he is there to hand out the medals to the kids as they cross the finish line. The kids portion of the event. That remains to be seen at this point. If not, we're going to go with Plan B. So we've been very busy ordering tents and portable rest rooms and working with our street superintendent Mike Wegler to ensure that there's safe streets out there.., signs working with Dave Potts, the Carver County Sheriff's Department to ensure the same type of... We'll be putting the signals on flashing red to slow traffic within the race route. We set out notification letters to all of the residents that are affecting it along the race route and we're really hoping that this is...versus an inconvenience at this point so. It's a real brief thing. It starts at 9:00 at Lake Ann by, you know within an hour, typically everybody's out running the race so it's a real fun festive event. Kathy Huffman and the kids.., are coming back again this year. We did confirm their plane tickets and they should have those. They're e tickets but they should be in their hands so to speak at this point so they should come in Friday the 13th and leaving on Sunday afiemoon back to the Chicago area. So it's fun working with the race committee. Everybody seems to be doing a great job... We're okay with volunteers at this point but we certainly could use some more. Tom will ask you...but the shirts are at the printers right now and we should be getting those back hopefully by the end of the week or early part of next week. Those again are being paid for by a donation solely for the shirt cost and then we have a very generous... Screen Printing in Plymouth will do all the screening for free. So the shirts don't cost us any money and I think we have a balance in that fund, or Dave Huff`man Memorial fund of about $9,300 right now so... fund balance into the next year. We're always looking for business help. We've had great Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 response from our community businesses in helping out with other donations...volunteers. It's been a very well received event for our area. Knock on wood we'll have good weather again this year so. Other than that I think we're about, I heard what 50 participants behind last year but I'm not all that concemed. Last year we had 100 some people register the day of the race and I know that we will do that again this year so we're anticipating hopefully more runners but... Einstein's will be doing bagels and.., so great, great event. Any questions at all I can answer from the commission? Happe: How many volunteers does it take to pull this thing off? Ruegemer: 40 to 60. We have Boy Scouts help with the water stations...two places around town .... with people actually yelling out times as the runners go by so they're kind of in sync with their watches. When you have between the street department park maintenance workers, Carver County Sheriff's department, and... Franks: Are you having us sign up for volunteering duties tonight? Kelly: As far as the kids run go, we are having a kids run this year. It's free. It's going to start around 10:00 a.m.. It should be about the same time as the last runners are crossing the finish line. It is a traffic friendly course. The kids will be running on sidewalks. The race will start, it's going to be the parking lot by the sidewalk that parallels 101 approaching Highway 5. And there's a trail cut-off on the right and they will run behind Houlihan's. Take that boardwalk over the pond, come out the other side of Houlihan's and make a right tum and head towards the finish line. It's probably around a quarter to a half mile run. And as far as entertainment, New Horizons has volunteered to put on some entertainment for the... They're not intending to be a babysitting service but they are having a magician there just to keep the kids occupied. They'll hand out goody bags for the kids and the finisher will receive a medal hopefully from... cheerleaders as they cross the finish line. What I really need is volunteers. If anyone who isn't running on the 14th, we really need people to help out with the kids race and I hope we'll have people stationed at different parts throughout the route just to watch the kids and just to make sure that it's a safely run race. It shouldn't take any more than 15 to 20 minutes so if anyone wants to volunteer to come out on the 14th and help out with the kids run, it'd be very much appreciated .... Shouldn't last more than 10-15 minutes. Stolar: No, how... Kelly: Probably between a quarter and a half mile. Happe: Kids will register that day or pre-register... Kelly: ...probably around 9:45 I'll start to round up the kids in the staging area and then if we have a lot of kids, probably start them in waves. Have the older kids go first and then the younger kids and hopefully it will be a good event. Hopefully it will bring out some adults that weren't planning on running that maybe now they'll make it into a family event. Hopefully we'll get a critical mass of kids that will allow us to continue this in the future. Happe: Good idea. Hoffman: The first volunteer at Highway 5... Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Kelly: The boardwalk, I want to make sure because I don't want any of these kids slipping through so we'll have a couple people on the boardwalk. Franks: Can we get rid of the goose? Clean it ofl~ Kelly: I think we're going to clean up and pull out the weeds... Franks: Good. Well that's a good way to get that done as well then. Well this event just keeps getting better. Hoffman: Commissions of the past have always talked about a race...and it's grown. Awesome. Great to see. Ruegemer: So if you can give your names to Tom tonight before you leave tonight. Kelly: Yeah, I'll get that sheet of paper out, or I've got a good memory. Franks: What time does the actual race start at? Ruegemer: 9:00 a.m. out at Lake Ann Park. Kelly: ... Ruegemer: From Americlnn? Kelly: Yeah. Ruegemer: Quarter to nine-ish. Franks: Please drive the last few people over. I remember the last couple years I've driven people over. Okay, sounds wonderful. So I'm going to encourage everyone if you're here to volunteer. I have had just a fantastic time volunteering at this event every year. This year I'm going to run so I plan on doing some stuff beforehand and unless I'm completely exhausted so we'll see but yeah. You can mark me down for filling in where I can afterwards. And you certainly have my permission at this time to put everyone on the spot individually and... Stolar: Is the children's going to start also at Lake Ann? Kelly: No, not Lake Ann. That's going to start at, it will start and finish at the finish line. So they'll start in the parking lot, start and end in the parking lot of Americlnn. Franks: Alright. Well thank you Jerry. Kelly: If you want to e-mail me if you can volunteer, that'd be great so I'm not panicked at... ADMINISTRATIVE: COMMUNITY CENTER FOCUS GROUP. Todd Hoffman provided the update on the Community Center Focus Group. Franks: Will this commission receive formal feedback from this focus group prior to information going to City Council? Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Hoffman: No. The council looks at this as a project...previous conversation was, they talked about should we just have the park commission do this. And they said no, they wanted a broader cross section than that... And then should they do a task force? No, they're not looking to do a full blown task force. And so they're, this report is sent back to the City Council...and the council had no problem with that last night. Stolar: This charge statement, that was drafted by. Hoffman: Drafted by staff`based upon the previous conversation with the City Council at a work session. Stolar: It seems to me, by having our commission members on it, commission member committee report, that's how we should get our update. But I would think that it would be appropriate as an informational item, not necessarily an action item. I don't care if it is forwarded faster, but around the same time as the council that we get the full briefing from our... Hoffman: You bet. You'll also get the copy of the report in your administrative packet. Stolar: So, is this how the type of things have been done in the past when we have representation that they just present it through that. Hoffman: ...just a diff`erent task... Franks: Any other comments? Anything that keeps this moving forward is a positive step in my opinion. We certainly want to support that. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORT. None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Franks: Any comments on the administrative packet? No? Kelly: I just have one ....goose program again next year for 2003? Or is that. Hoffman: We put it in the budget. We skipped one year in the past 10 years and that resulted in some additional outcry from primarily Lotus Lake or Minnewashta folks. They... Kelly: I do think it's valuable given the dollars per goose, it's a pretty good program for the area... Hoffman: Valuable to those homeowners and so, but is it equitable, I'm not sure about that. Atkins: I have a question about rental .... if somebody rents an area... Ruegemer: ...those picnic facility sites are...6:00-7:00 in the moming on both Saturday and Sunday moming. Stolar: What about the maintenance issue? What was the situation there? Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Ruegemer: That was a unique situation. All those lights are at, this is at Lake Ann in particular and all those lights are on the timer. They come on... This was at 5:00-6:00 at night middle of summer. We had tornado sirens and stuff going on at that time. The regional softball toumament going on at the same time, so that was kind of a unique situation where we shouldn't face that very often. Hoffman: They're on a timer, not a photo cell. Ruegemer: They're on a timer. Stolar: Part of that discussion was that they tried to call someone and they couldn't get a hold of anybody. Hoffman: It's going to be tough to find somebody on a Saturday. Stolar: I guess they were under the assumption they would have the ability to get a hold of somebody. Hoffman: They kind of hoped that they could. Ruegemer: ...but I was there. It was a unique situation that we would not encounter on a normal, everyday weekend. Stolar: From a safety perspective, is there a posting there? Is there a phone or a way for them to get a hold of anybody for safety issues? Hoffman: There's a phone there if they want to call 911. Stolar: Okay. Hoffman: Then dispatch calls a deputy and then they have a phone list on a variety of issues... Franks: I did notice one thing on the Canadian geese, in the Figure 5 it says mean number of Canada geese, and I'm wondering if that was meant to say number of mean geese because when I'm running down by Lake Susan, they are scary sometimes and they are clogging the trail and you know. Hoffman: They want to protect their young. Franks: Okay. Anything more? Hoffman: Have you noticed the dead grass at Lake Susan? Along the trail. They've killed the grass between the trail and Lake Susan from about the beach to the fishing pier, and that's part of that planting program and Lori Haak, the Water Resource Coordinator will be approaching you as potential volunteers to plant both aquatic and then the grasses and trees and plants outside of the water, probably the end of September. It'sa DNRgrant management program. Someofthese plants which are aquatic will be actually planted in the water... Happe: ...public launching on lakes in Chanhassen? Like the dock facilities at Lake Susan for example. Park and Rec Commission Meeting August 27, 2002 Franks: Are you talking about having like boat docking? Happe: Yes. Franks: Instead of just. Happe: Either boat docking or even, I was just wondering if you've ever had this conversation about more significant or better dock facilities. Not necessarily boat storage or docking them but just maybe better access docks into the lake. I just didn't know if... Franks: Only as it's arisen as a maintenance item so. Hoffman: Lake Susan has never had an access dock. We could certainly budget for one. Lake Ann does not have an access dock. Happe: Well they have access ramps but not docks. It's just something that maybe doesn't need to be addressed immediately but just something that we maybe should think about at some point. Franks: You're talking about the dock after you land your boat, something to tie up to? Happe: Yeah, and or you put your dock in and you either have to catch your dock going through the water and get on your boat that way so we have the access ramps into the lake but we don't really have a means to get on the boat without jumping in the water and.., so just something that we could look at at some point down the road. Franks: It's certainly an amenity that'd be worthwhile. We have them at Lotus. Hoffman: Just Lotus. It would be an embellishment I believe or. Franks: Enhancement. Hoffman: Enhancement. I like that word. Franks: Okay, if there's no further comments or discussion, I'll entertain a motion for adjournment. Stolar moved, Happe seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim