PRC 2002 12 10CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
DECEMBER 10, 2002
Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 6:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Amy O'Shea, Paula Atkins, Glenn Stolar, Tom Kelly,
and Jack Spizale
MEMBERS ABSENT: David Happe
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Superintendent; Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent; Susan Marek, Rec Center Manager; and
Kara Wickenhauser, Senior Center Coordinator.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
MINUTES: None.
TOBACCO FREE POLICY FOR OUTDOOR SETTINGS.
Ruegemer: Many of the cities and school districts around the state have taken a look at
developing such a policy, tobacco free policies. We receive requests periodically throughout the
course of the year on addressing these types of issues within our park system, and I guess
intemally we've been discussing this policy or developing a policy for quite some time now.
Now seems to be the time since we are in the health business so to speak, it's time that we kind of
take a look at taking measures on I guess providing environments for our children and our park
users. We did, I did include some other policies from other cities to kind of give some knowledge
or some background information for the commissioners tonight to take a look at those and kind of
formulate and maybe have an ala carte, kind of a system for us to take a look at in developing this
type of policy. What I'm really primarily concemed on is athletic areas and our skate park
mainly. Beaches, a lot of those types of areas where we're going to have kind of a mixed use of
participation and my, I guess goal tonight is to discuss a lot of the issues that go into this. I did
include a sample policy that I kind of put together and it kind of touches some key points.
Certainly there's room for discussion on that policy and anything that the commission would like
to discuss tonight or add or delete. Staff is certainly open to that tonight and that's why we
provided the additional policies from other cities so you could get kind of a well rounded,
education so to speak in looking at this policy. Staff`feels it's important to adopt such a policy for
our park system, and I think the time is now to take a look at that seriously and make some
recommendations so, does anybody have any questions on that at all?
Franks: Thanks Jerry. Well let's open it up for questions then. And since there's just us today,
let's we can maybe just shoot our questions out as they come and respect each other's chance to
field some questions. Jerry to field some question so, any commissioners have questions? Jerry,
are you ready? I promised Jerry we'd be nice to him tonight. They never listen to me anyway
but I thought I would throw that out.
Ruegemer: Thank you.
Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Atkins: Jerry, oh I'm sorry. Would it be public safety enforcing it?
Ruegemer: Well it's, there's a couple ways that you can go about that issue. Some of the cities
as you see, it really depends on how far we want to go with enforcement. Some have adopted or
passed, kind of the bite of it is, if you get caught violating, it could be a misdemeanor or $25
fine. I guess my angle on it was more education at this point versus having a set fine. You know
I really found that hard to enforce. Are we going to send out a CSO or are Todd and I going to be
deputized to write out tickets.
Hoffman: The 7 of us in this room would do more enforcement than the police department would
do the entire year. Unfortunately this level of you know, dogs in the park, all those issues just do
not, they don't rise to the level of our contract with Carver County so you need to recognize when
they put these, if you put these into force, it's going to be up to us to do self enforcement.
Kelly: I was curious too in this policy, did you intend on applying it to neighborhood parks, so if
kids are playing a neighborhood park that you would prohibit smoking in that park or was it more
towards if there was an organized activity going on in that park like a soccer game or a softball
game?
Ruegemer: You know kind of looking at the policies, it does address kind of my vision of this
would be more in the active parks area. Lake Ann, Bandimere, Lake Susan. A lot of the areas
where we have a lot of youth activities going on. Skate park. We certainly could, the
playgrounds are certainly part of that. So whether we, maybe it's as simple as positing a sign of
sorts in neighborhood park areas, I'm not opposed to that.
Kelly: I was just curious. I didn't know.
Stolar: With regards to signs, given that question about how many do you think we're going to
have to put out there?
Ruegemer: I figured rough numbers around 30. 30-35 I'm guessing.
Hoffman: If you included playgrounds it would go higher. It'd be another 20. If you included
every playground set of apparatus.
Ruegemer: When figuring this number I really kind of kept more towards the active community
locations. Kind of the information that, that was kind of basing the $15 price on was if you look
in your packet, back at the sign for UFA. I did contact the UFA and those were approximately 14
and some change with shipping and freight and some of those prices with tax so, those were kind
of the signs that I kind of based my numbers on.
Stolar: Is there a quantity discount question of ordering some, because we're going to have some
tom down.
Ruegemer: Correct. Yeah, and the price certainly did go down with higher numbers.
Stolar: Okay.
Franks: I have a few. You mentioned that, Jerry that staff`feels the time is now. What makes the
time now to do this?
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Ruegemer: Well number one, we have been receiving a few phone calls. It hasn't been ringing
off`the hook or anything.
Franks: Like what is a few?
Ruegemer: A few? Probably less than 5.
Franks: In the past.
Ruegemer: Oh couple years probably for that. I'm just thinking now is a, as kids are kind of put
in situations where they're you know, left unattended so to speak, I think there's a lot of
situations out there they can get at, basically what I'm trying to do is provide safe, positive
environments and really kind of look at the whole positive role model angle on this. There's a lot
of, if you look at youth sports, there's a lot of positive that can come out of that and this is just an
extension of that if we can provide safe environments for the kids.
Hoffman: The addition and operation of the skate park was another reason that this has come to
the front of our agenda again.
Franks: So, I mean we're saying that the parents who come to watch the kids at the skate park are
smoking.
Ruegemer: Well not necessarily at the skate park alone, but there certainly is that activity at a
ball game on any given night at Lake Ann or Bandimere.
Hoffman: And the kids themselves are smoking.
Franks: That's already against the law.
Hoffman: No. Not if you're 18 or older.
Franks: Well okay, right. But that's what I mean, adults.
Hoffman: Young adults who smoke.
Franks: Right.
Hoffman: Primarily it would be young adults and then there are a number of under aged kids that
smoke there as well.
Atkins: What about at community gatherings like the 4th of July and February Festival, things
like that?
Ruegemer: We had discussed that a little bit on the staff level and you know, enforcement
certainly is an issue with those types of events.
Hoffman: It's not going to be very popular.
Ruegemer: Yeah.
Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Franks: What's not going to be very popular?
Hoffman: No smoking at the 4th of July under the beer tent.
Ruegemer: I guess that wasn't, that was kind of more, going more towards the park angle on this.
Atkins: Well if the signs are posted more near the parks and not where the activity is taking
place on the 4th of July, people will assume that's an open zone probably. Not that it's good. I'm
sure it gets pretty smoky in there. In the tent but.
Stolar: Well this recommendation, it is specific though it's when youth activities are going on.
Franks: Is that the intent that this be specific to when a youth, an organized youth activity is in
progress?
Ruegemer: That was kind of my intention for that.
Franks: With the exception of the skate park being in all the time?
Ruegemer: Yeah, I think that was addressed in that, in the policy. Certainly you'd want to
address the skate park as well.
Stolar: The way it's written, it might need some clarification for playground to the skate park for
example with a period. And then for the athletic fields and such, it's when youth activities. If
that's your intention, that's some of the question.
Franks: You also have the beaches involved. Are you suggesting that the beaches be part of the
ban when there's an organized activity at the beach?
Ruegemer: You know again this is kind of a policy that was put together for your review. We
don't necessarily have to have beaches in there.
Franks: Well what do you think?
Ruegemer: Well enforcement may be an issue down at the beach.
Franks: No, but do you think that that's a good, I'm interested in what you think. Do you think
it's a good idea to have the ban extend to the beach or?
Ruegemer: Me personally, yes. I'm not a big person in favor of smoking. I wish it would be
banned all across the nation but, I won't let my personal biases to get in the way.
Franks: Okay. Any other questions?
Stolar: In summarizing this conversation, I don't know if now's the appropriate time but my
thought would be that we would, at least I along the lines of Jerry, would think that at beaches,
playgrounds, and at the skate park we would just want to ban smoking, and athletic fields, and I
didn't see skate rinks in here at all. Like for the outdoor ice skating, for those types of fields
when youth activities are occurring. That would be something that I would be in favor of, but I
don't know if I'd pose it as a friendly amendment.
Franks: Well let's just move that right into the comments phase and you just take right off~
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Stolar: Well that, I mean that would be my preferred approach, and enforcement, you know this
is not something that we're looking to be bringing the hammer down. It's a, it is policy if this is
adopted by the City Council, but it's not something that we're going to expend a whole lot of
effort to enforce, so I think going that way to make the beach cleaner is a good thing. To make
the playground areas better so I'd like to propose that as a friendly amendment to this approach,
and I guess we have to bring this to the table first. So I can't put a friendly amendment to my
own motion.
Franks: We don't have a motion. Let's just finish the comments. Go around and then maybe
that will help us define it up.
Stolar: Okay.
Atkins: It seems to me that it would be just a reminder and the signs would be a reminder. Make
people think before they light up and I think people would comply voluntarily pretty well. As
long as, if they can't smoke right on the beach, they can walk away from the beach into the
woods if they have to. I think you'll have a problem with young adults on the beach in the
evening, because they hang out there.
Hoffman: During the lifeguarded times, the lifeguards will conduct enforcement.
Atkins: Right. I think it's a good idea.
Ruegemer: And also tobacco free also means chewing tobacco and a number of things as well.
Franks: Right. Tom.
Kelly: I think it's a great idea. The only question I have is going to the next item agenda which
is the fees for renting the parks. Would that mean, would you be in favor then of smoke-free
picnic areas? I'm just trying to, if we're going, what Glenn had said in terms of, and you said
maybe beaches, skate park and neighborhood parks.
Stolar: I said playgrounds.
Kelly: Playgrounds.
Stolar: Yes.
Kelly: Then you know Lake Ann and Lake Susan both qualify as a beach and a neighborhood, as
a playground. I wonder would you want to apply the ban to the picnic areas so groups that signed
up to have a picnic would know that there's no smoking at that facility and is that a direction that
you'd want the policy to go or not.
Ruegemer: I would not want that policy to go that direction.
Stolar: And I think we would probably need to specifically exclude that. If we don't want it
required.
Kelly: Alright. I just wanted to bring that up. I don't want to make it too general and then have
something like that all of a sudden fall under the guideline. That's it.
Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
O'Shea: My comment is I think it's a fabulous principle/value statement that the city should take.
Because it's hard to monitor, the less gray area there is, the better. So when we start naming
certain things and leaving certain areas out, it gets even more confusing I think to monitor, so if
we could, would it be too vague to just go, you know whatever youth activity is going on or youth
involvement, and that way like for example the 4th of July when it's dark and it's late, those are
mainly 18 and older. So really at the 4th of July it wouldn't affect the youth. But in the day when
they're doing more youth activity with the games. Well then it should apply that there shouldn't
be smokers out in the field for example you know going inbetween the games. So could we just
say, you know wherever there's youth activities involved, and then I do think too we should
exclude the private rental groups in this as well. So that would be my comment. To make it as
simple as we could instead of naming specific, you know and then in the, whatever you write up,
you could give examples of lists that it be soccer games, skate park, but I'd say the simpler you
can write it, the easier it would be to enforce when you have to. But it's excellent principle/value
statement I think.
Hoffman: The one difficulty I think is that the written policy is not going to be something that
the general public comes in contact with so how do you write that is really not as important as
what the sign says and where the sign goes. Unfortunately that's how we operate as a society. If
there's not a sign in front of my face that tells me I can't do it, and if somebody walks up to me
and says oh yeah, there's a paper up in the draw at City Hall that says you can't do it. Well I
don't really care. Put a sign in front of my face and then I might listen to you. So signs have to
go up around the perimeter of the beach, at the playgrounds, which generally have an access point
at the skate which have an access point, and then they'll go up on the back stops of all the fields
and we might in fact have two signs. One sign if we go the way of Commissioner Stolar that says
no smoking at this facility which would be posted at beaches, playgrounds and skate parks and
then the athletic fields it could say no smoking during these athletic events.
Franks: Well I'm going to pull a Jay and, which this is not going to seem like me, the comment
I'm going to make but I do not think this is a good idea. I don't think it's a necessary idea for one
thing. I think we, I'm not personally a smoker either and it kind of bugs me a little bit too, but
you know my kids are out at sporting events and we're down at the beach and although maybe
I've been nuisanced very, very infrequently, I haven't really seen it as too much of a problem and
so when I'm applying kind of my own cost benefit analysis and although I would certainly talk to
anyone about how it's not a healthy habit to engage in, you know I'm wondering is coaches who
aren't going to coach and grandparents who aren't going to show up and parents who aren't going
to take their kids to the beach or people who, I mean because of that. And people who smoke are
paying taxes too and I know we have limitations on lots of behaviors that we have. We could
limit behavior, that's perfectly fine, but considering that we've gotten 5 calls, and I expected it.
That's what I expected. I just asked the question to confirm what I had expected. That you've
gotten 5 calls in the last so many years is indicating that people are really more concerned maybe
about other things than the smoking that's going on in our parks. We are in the business of park
and recreation and through that we promote health, but I don't know if as a govemment agency
we want to get too involved in indicating what values people are supposed to have while they're
using their park and recreation. About as far as I could go in attempting to rationalize it and
justify a position here was a safety issue in like a designated play structure area where the last
thing I'd want while kids are running around is someone's big, long cigarette ash hanging out that
they'll run into and get burned on or something like that so that might be something that I could
see, but if that were really happening and a problem Jerry, I'd bet you'd be getting calls. And
we're just not getting them. And I'd like to use the argument of is this something we want to
spend some money on? The money's not that much so that's not the big deal to me. But part of
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
me thinks the tick off factor to a lot of people is going to be greater than the benefit we're going
to get from something we can't enforce and that maybe people aren't really identifying as a big
issue. That's my feeling on it and so, although at some point in the future I would think maybe
we'll have to deal with this, but I'd rather see a thing where we encourage the sports
organizations who use our facilities to start enacting their own policies on that one, and for them
to begin to monitor their members uses on our facilities instead of us dictating in a sense that
kind of social behavior. So I'm sounding like a libertarian tonight I guess, but less govemment
sometimes is more.
Stolar: Can I ask a question? Beside from the complaints, are there a lot of cigarette butts, clean-
up issues?
Hoffman: Ask Dale.
Gregory: Down at the beach there's a lot. There's a lot of them down there. The ballfields up on
the softball fields and that, there's quite a few but the beach is really the worst that I see.
Franks: But with that occurring, it's also when there's adults.
Gregory: Pardon?
Franks: For the softball area they do also when there's adult. All adult activity.
Stolar: Right, which we wouldn't prohibit there. What about in the skate park? Were these 5
calls all related to the skate park or were they spread across?
Ruegemer: Not necessarily the skate park. I mean it's just more overall type of thing. We've got
things at the, some of the special events, some of those type of things so, it's not necessarily
specific to the skate park, no.
Franks: The thing that also, I agree with it and I bristle that I agree with it, but it's the whole
thing about the role model issue. Where I'm trying to separate my feelings from my cognitions.
My emotions from my cognitions. And part of you know, one of my kid's best soccer coaches
that commanded the most respect and had the most skill, you know tumed around at half time and
lit up. And so you think, you know that always kind of bugged me a little bit but yet when I talk
about who was your favorite coach, this is the person that comes up. And as a child I remember
also that of course the behavior, smoking was much different but I don't, I'm having a hard time
with me personally thinking how it adversely affected me to see or that I had negative images of
some of these people in my life as adult sports figures who smoked as having a real negative
influence on me. It may exist but I don't know if the correlation is...
Hoffman: That's why it hasn't bugged you today.
Franks: It doesn't bug me today.
Hoffman: That's why.
Franks: But I'm one of the first people that's like, when we went on a cruise, I picked the no
smoking ship so that's why, I know you're laughing and I was happy, happy, happy.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Hoffman: All school buildings and grounds are no smoking. All public city buildings are no
smoking so this building, all city buildings that we have. The rec center. And the, there's all
sorts of issues here. Why do we let drinking go on and not smoking in areas? Why would we
prohibit smoking at youth events and not at an adult event? The beach is an issue I think for
maintenance and the proximity of these people. That's where I see the most disturbance between
people that are smoking and people who do not care to be in that environment. And then the
skate park's a real issue because we have tons of kids in close proximity and I would just as soon
be able to walk over there and tell any person not to stop in the skate park.
Franks: See I think we can make a justification on the safety issue that smoking at the skate park
poses a risk. A safety risk. Because if you have people in that enclosed area smoking and skaters
going all over the place, you know people are more compacted in, I think we can do that. If we
want to say that smoking at the beach is creating a cost because of maintenance and a hassle, and
a nuisance to people attempting to use the beach which is a defined, confined space, I think we
could justify that as well. I could even go so far as saying in the play structure, inside the play
structure area, because again you have the same kind of safety risk, that that seems consistent for
me. But I run into the same problems. We're going to let adults smoke at adult activities and
we're not going to let them, you know at their youth activities and it's because of the value issue
like you bring up, but is that our business.
Hoffman: That's for you to decide.
Franks: Yes, and I would say that it is not.
Kelly: How were these received at Roseville and Bloomington?
Ruegemer: You know l didn't ask that specific question of the individual cities. Solcouldn't
comment on that. I mean most are relatively new, probably within the last couple years. Just
kind of the momentum of this issue certainly has gained in the last couple years.
Hoffman: It was obviously a hot topic in Eden Prairie that most of you I'm sure followed.
Stolar: In the Roseville discussion they say in youth activity areas when children are present, and
that's their wording. In our discussion right, to me, you know Rod's question about the question
of setting the example. You know I would actually go the opposite side of Rod. I'd just ban it
from the parks personally. That's how I would do it because I think it is a nuisance to the people
who don't smoke and they don't get a choice, right if someone lights up. And it's also a safety
and clean-up issue, but I would understand with Rod's statement that maybe we focus initially on
a policy that says these are key youth activity areas where children are present. There are safety
and cost risks, or costs associated with those. Focus on those. See how it goes and potentially
expand. Again we aren't talking a lot of money so we pay $15 a sign now, we pay $16 in two
years if we expand it. It's not going to hurt us. But I do think those areas, my key focus is what
Rod said. The playgrounds, the skate park and the beach. Those are the key areas I'm most
concerned about. Now you have another question which is if we go to the city with
recommending beyond that, or we only purchase signs for those areas, then we aren't spending
the money but we do have a policy in place that we can casually enforce. We can add signs later
but we go with our policy. I don't know if that solves part of your dilemma Rod about the
expense.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Franks: No. I'm saying, I wish I could make that a dilemma but I can't because we're not talking
about that much money. I mean $750 to go full bore with it is, that's not an issue. It'd be nice to
have that as an argument but it's not.
Hoffman: There's also a choice in the fact that if you make it policy or in Bloomington it's
enacted as an ordinance by the City Council. So you can include that in your recommendation.
At what level do you want this in your policy.
Franks: Well I'd like to even see things like I, a tobacco use policy for outdoor settings, because
tobacco free just strikes me as being so subjectively value laden that I don't know if that's our
business. Because we're talking about restricting the use of tobacco for justifiable reasons.
Protecting the safety of children, just like we expect playgrounds to be safe and you know in
code.
O'Shea: Can I ask you a question Rod on your, because I see where your reference point has not,
you know values and principles but I see it as, it's an extension of our building. For example the
parks, if you doomed it, you'd have the no smoking policy. So to me just because you remove a
roof shouldn't eliminate what we feel the value or principle statement for the city. So that's why.
Franks: But where I would go with that is, I'm agreeing to do it in closed, outdoor statements.
Skate park, playground, a beach. Those are definable and you could say enclosed area. A beach
is as big as it is, you know, and playground is defined and enclosed. The skate park is fenced in.
Just like a building has four walls on it.
O'Shea: Okay. Oh, so you're for all those areas.
Franks: I'm saying I could go along with that. I would prefer not to have this. My preference
would be this is not, it's not necessary at all at this point. So Glenn, make a stab at a motion. Oh,
the other thing that I'm thinking too is, I would like to see this, if we do agree to do a policy or to
take this as far as ordinance, it says here in the staffs recommendation that after review staff
should be directed to make changes and forward to the City Council. I'd like us as a commission
to forward, if we're going to go that far, what our policy would be and not just that we're
forwarding the idea of creating this policy and here's the guidelines. It's that we actually, are you
following me on that?
Hoffman: Absolutely. We'll make, we'll adapt it up for your January meeting.
Franks: Yeah, great. Alright Glenn.
Stolar: I make a motion that the Parks and Recreation Commission direct staff`to draft a tobacco
policy outlining the prohibition of tobacco usage at the beaches, playground areas and skate park.
And we only have one now but we've always talked about multiple.
Franks: Alright. Anything else? Is there a second?
Stolar: Yeah, no. That will be it.
Franks: Okay, is there a second to the motion?
O'Shea: I second.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Franks: Okay, it's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion? That
sounds good.
Stolar moved, O'Shea seconded that the Parks and Recreation Commission direct staff to
draft a tobacco policy outlining the prohibition of tobacco usage at the beaches, playground
areas and skate park. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Franks: So staff; we will look forward to our meeting in January.
Hoffman: And no reference to athletic fields?
Franks: At this point no.
Stolar: At this point no. I reserve the right in January to change my mind.
Franks: Well I think where we're going to be headed Todd is that we'll enact a policy, hopefully
the City Council will endorse enactment of this policy. And then at any point in the future we can
amend the policy to fit the changing needs of the community or culture.
Stolar: Yeah, I think that that's the...important that we can extend it if we need to, or decide to.
ESTABLISH 2003 PICNIC RESERVATION FEES.
Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks. We did discuss this item at length at the November
meeting. The commission did direct staff to obtain some additional information, and kind of
close some gaps on some things and research past picnic users, which was all done. Basically
what I did is kind of take a look at the, I think Commissioner O'Shea had talked about the, that
the rates weren't proportional in looking at. We did take a look at all those rates from location
and classification of that and take a look at those and adjust those so they are proportionate with
each other across the board. Hopefully that looks okay to the commission. I also had contacted
and obtained information from, I just used three, kind of our neighboring areas that provide picnic
facilities. The City of Eden Prairie, the City of Chaska, and Three Rivers Park District. Their
fees are listed in the memo as well as included within your packet for your review, so I think that
will be helpful for the commission to kind of base their decision tonight on the 2003 fees. I did
talk to people, really my findings were that people that have paid kind of the, obviously the lower
fees could absorb a little bit higher percentage of a rate increase if needed. If need be. And also
then in talking to the kind of the higher end people, the non-Chanhassen business people in the
250-280 range people, things I think will be a little bit tougher for them to absorb. I think a little
bit would be alright but one even said that Lake Ann's a good value because we don't have a
parking fee of course so.
Hoffman: Which Three Rivers charges.
Ruegemer: Right. That's correct. And so, in talking to the people who have been out here for a
number of years, I think a small rate increase probably would be fine. I mean they certainly were
concerned about having a major, major increase since we are again, as you can see, one of the
kind of the higher cities and higher agencies that do charge picnic rates. Granted we do have very
nice amenities with, I think we can get, we certainly have a lot to offer at our picnic locations. So
what I also did is, you know taking a look at, and talking to people, I think a 10 percent increase
certainly could be absorbed, be okay with any of these organizations in context that I did talk to.
We did, I did take a look at creating kind of a tier system and basically I defined the weekday
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
rates as Monday through Thursday, starting with weekend rates on Friday, Saturday and Sunday,
as consistent with Three Rivers and other areas as well. Taking a look at the tables listed below is
the current kind of adjusted rates proportionally. The Monday through Thursday. That was
based on our rates that we've had in the past, adjusted to the appropriate new numbers. And then
the Friday and Saturday on the right hand side of the column was the reflection of the 10 percent
increase per category within those sites mentioned. The Lake Susan shelter, Lake Ann pavilion,
and the Lakeside and Parkview areas at Lake Ann Park. Now with that I will certainly field
questions if the council has questions or comments.
Franks: Any quick questions for Jerry? Jerry, good job.
Ruegemer: Thank you.
Franks: I don't have any questions but I think this now like to me makes sense. It looks good.
You know when you actually see 10 percent from a dollar amount on some of this stuff; it doesn't
look like a whole lot but the philosophy is there and it gives us something that is much more
logical to work with in the future, and it sets the stage for how we're going to approach this now
and I think that works really good. It was great that you actually, and I'm sure those weren't easy
phone calls to make, but to call up some of the past users and kind of feel out where they're at
and that's just great to also give us that kind of information and it tends to support where we were
going last week, so that was really helpful for me. And I think that what we've got here is really
good and I would certainly recommend supporting it. Open it up for any other comments. Amy?
O'Shea: I think it's good. It does help to make sense of it, so I think it looks good.
Franks: Commissioner Kelly?
Kelly: I think it looks great.
Atkins: I was wondering if you think that's a large enough increase. Or if it's going to have to be
raised again next year. The year after?
Ruegemer: Kind of what my philosophy on raising fees has been, in the past, is that we look at, if
we do recommend a rate increase, to hold that fee for a couple-three years and then re-address it
at that point. I personally have not been in favor of 10 percenting it every year with that, so
knowing that in mind I'd like to kind of establish that fee and maintain it, whether it's softball
fees or basketball fees. Picnic fees. I like to kind of maintain that so people don't feel like
they're getting nickel and dime every time they sign up for something. But if you remember, I
didn't recommend an increase in November so I think 10 percent is plenty, but that certainly is at
the commission's discretion tonight to raise that fee.
Franks: Were you thinking going, when you look at those dollar amounts, it doesn't seem like a
whole lot.
Atkins: No. It looks affordable for me, and it very well could affect me and I would be perfectly
happy with these rates. I just know that for instance with our theater we raise ticket prices every
couple of years and we'd rather do it in, not do it.
Franks: I'm sorry, rather.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Atkins: Raise it and leave it for a few years before we raise them again rather than do it every
year because people notice that so, this looks great.
Stolar: I apologize for not being in the discussion last meeting. This looks great. Just a couple
thoughts. One would be, I noticed Three Rivers Park District they have a 20 percent differential
between weekday and weekends. Something to consider in the future. And then Eden Prairie has
half day rentals that are more than half the amount. That might also be a consideration for the
future. Something, depending on demand side, that we might consider. I also like the idea of,
this new request that we sent this as a 2003 rate, but I'm wondering if this group, again not being
on the discussion last time I don't know if we talked about this, might recommend setting it for
two years. So that it is, we've asked people to absorb an increase. We went out directed them
and asked them can you absorb it. Part of this could be saying, you know you can count on us for
a couple years obviously. City Council can always over rule us but we can recommend this for
two years.
Franks: Personally I don't know ifI want to box myself in on that, considering that we're starting
the tiered approach for our very first year. I'd really like to see how it goes and what the response
is, and if that's something we want to look at for in the future, I'm sure that, or Jerry, if that's
where you feel you need to go, that that would be part of the next reservation fees
recommendation.
Ruegemer: Sometime in the future would the commission like to see the breakdown of, you
know from this point going forward, the breakdown of you know how many resident reservations
we're getting on residents, that sort of thing.
Franks: It might be helpful. The other thing that I'd like to ask to do is if there's some way to
track the volume of requests, and if we can determine whether we have high volume weekends.
How many people we might be tuming away, or who's request you can't fulfill that would be
willing to sign up. If there's just some way when the calls come in that you could log those and
have that be part of the year end report as well. I'd like some sense of what the actual demand is.
We know what the supply is. Or as close as we can. I mean it will be antidotal...
Ruegemer: We can do antidotal.
Franks: Alright. Any other comments or questions? Alright. How about a motion?
Kelly: I'll make a motion to recommend to the City Council to accept the 2003 group picnic
reservation fees proposed by staff~
Franks: Okay, is there a second?
Atkins: I second.
Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Any discussion? Seeing none.
Kelly moved, Atkins seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that
the City Council adopt the 2003 group picnic reservation fee schedule as proposed. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Franks: Thank you Jerry. Nice work.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY REPORT.
Franks: Let's move through these and hit the high points if you can.
Ruegemer: Okay. Thanks again. The verbal went to written today so I passed out that
information to you as well tonight. We had a pretty nice night on Saturday night for the tree
lighting ceremony. We did, did you think it was cold? The fire was nice. I was warm but I was
running around too much. But we had, I think around 200 people there which is really has gained
in popularity and numbers wise since certainly I've done it. 12-13 years ago when I first started it
but it was a nice event. We had Chapel Hill there singing carols and Santa arrived on the aerial
fire truck which was fun, and it was a fun event having the Chamber down in the old Village Hall
building certainly lends itself to a nice location for that event so they can promote the Chanhassen
business and having kind of a focal point and having a fun event that evening so. Other than that,
that was about it. I think our hope once the library is complete is to kind of relocate things back
to, I kind of view this as our temporary home, and when City Center Park gets built and
completed, that will have a permanent tree in that location.
Franks: City Center Commons.
Ruegemer: I'm sorry, City Center Commons. That will have a focal point for this and that will
be kind of spread out between two locations so.
Franks: Good. Any comments? No? Just one. I am just wondering if there's any way to start
taking a look at these types of events as finding a way for them to be self-supporting. And that
may mean some creativity and I don't know exactly what you would do but things, this cost us
$230 to put this one, and is there a way, some way for these types of events to be self-supporting.
Whether that's through some kind of concession or whether, I mean I don't know exactly what it
would be, or some Santa raffle ahead of time or whatever. But I'd like you for next year, and
generally speaking for some of these programs to see what you can come up with.
Hoffman: You could call it self supporting tonight based off of our sponsorship program.
Franks: Okay.
Hoffman: We raised $10,000 in cash specifically for our special events programs.
Franks: For this. Okay.
Ruegemer: This and other events.
Atkins: What was the money used for specifically at the ceremony?
Franks: It's on the back of the.
Atkins: Oh, I didn't see the back, sorry.
Ruegemer: That's kind of a breakdown of how the money was, the expenditures for that
program.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Franks: And some, I know that some of these programs there's like no way they can be self
supporting. I mean just absolutely not but some of them maybe, and then we'd have more
resources through the sponsorship program to apply to other things. I mean generally speaking.
Hoffman: Brought to you by.
Franks: Brought to you by. I was just going back to my Y experience and if you didn't break
even on a program, you probably didn't run your program the next year. At least that was my
experience.
Atkins: Well I can't believe Santa charged 70.
Franks: Bah, humbug.
Atkins: He's a good Santa though.
Stolar: Quickly, do you have these laid out for 2003, all the different events. What dates they're
going to occur?
Ruegemer: Yeah.
Stolar: Could you next meeting.
Ruegemer: I can run upstairs and get it for you now.
Stolar: Well in January maybe just bring it as a report item showing the events for 2003. Not
that I would have attended, because I had the flu Saturday but my wife had made plans for the
same day before we got the date, or at least before I knew about it. So I mean get it on the
calendar first this time.
Atkins: I do have one more comment. I was there and I think that having Chapel Hill involved
brought in I'd say more than half of the people. I did not know anybody there except Todd and
the firemen and you. And my father. And my family but otherwise I knew no one and that's
really unusual for me to go to a community event and not know anybody. So I think that that's
where all the people came from. And that's a good thing. That's a good thing, but and also, I
would love to see it remain at that spot forever because that's the heart of old downtown and I
think it's a great spot for it. It was fun.
RECREATION CENTER REPORT.
Franks: Let's move onto the recreation center. Susan.
Marek: Well I've come to report on the perennial topic on the rec center so why don't we start
off with the child care programming. Those of you who have served on the commission for a
lengthier time know that this one comes up quite often out at the rec center. Our program did
begin this September and to date, that was the first week in December, we had $250 in revenues
and expenses of $900. We're just not getting participation in that program with enough children.
It's always a balancing act for us to come out in the black. I don't expect that this will turn
around. I think it will increase January-February. Start falling off in March and be very low
again in April and May. Right now because of the cycle that we print the newsletters at, they get
mailed out to all Chanhassen residents, we are committed to run this program through the end of
March. Generally the school year is a good breaking point for this program because we do close
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
it down over the summer months anyway, so at this point I am going forward with the thought
that we will cancel entirely the child care program in June of 2003, with no start-up scheduled at
all. And I'm just looking for your thoughts onthat topic.
Franks: How are we committed through March?
Marek: The newsletter that gets mailed out, it was mailed on November 6th, has in it information
regarding child care availability at the rec center. That newsletter covers activities in January,
February and March.
Franks: But how many people are going to be affected by that?
Marek: My guess is probably 20 to 25 families. That would choose to use the facility and then
not have it available.
Franks: Okay.
Stolar: Do you see any, did you say it's closed down in the summer. Do we have any unmet
demand in the summer? If kids are out of school then, or is it for lower aged kids?
Marek: Our child care runs for children 6 weeks to 6 years in age. Generally in the summer the
demand goes down because people are doing other activities not interior to the rec center and
secondly there are older school children at home to help spread out that burden with the younger
one also.
O'Shea: You know it concerns me because I'm thinking how can you grow the usage at the rec
center, in all areas. In classes and the fitness room and then actually the daycare, or not the
daycare, the babysitting area, or child care. So I'm just thinking, it seems like it's such a, you
know I'm puzzled why it hasn't you know, it's a tough one because I think if you, how can you
grow if you can't off'er that because that's a real good incentive for people to come and use the
rec center. This is nothing new, but why aren't they? So I'm thinking if you promote, you know
I'm for spending more money to promote the rec center use. But if you don't have babysitting,
that really cuts down your target market that you're going to be going after. If you don't have,
you know from September through May, because then you're going to really narrow it down to
people that have grade school kids and up to come and use it if you get rid of it, right?
Hoffman: Well currently we only have 20 or 25 families that are using it so that's a...market.
O'Shea: But then I'm thinking, but you're not really want to be even in all the areas, right?
Wouldn't you want to have more people in the fitness?
Franks: Well it's about maxed out. We're at a maximum.
Marek: The participation in the fitness room itself is a self, it's self limiting. That is, you know
we can sell as many punch cards as we want but as the crowds get bigger in there, then it serves
as it's own deterrent. If people can't get on their treadmill, they're not going to come back so it,
you can't keep promoting and pushing that and selling punch cards and then having people be
angry because they're not able to access the equipment that they want.
Franks: Amy question is good. Is it possible to grow in the current physical set-up? The cardio
vascular workout programming at the rec center.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Marek: Are you referring to the fitness room?
Franks: Yes, the fitness room.
Marek: We are space limited.
Franks: Space limited and you're pretty much maxed out.
Marek: We're maxed. Right now the only program thoughts that we have with regard to any
equipment changes in that room are replacements, not additions.
Franks: And what about for aerobic classes?
Marek: Right now our moming aerobic classes are doing pretty well. Our evening classes have
decreased attendance.
Franks: Okay, but it's during the daytime that you have child care anyway.
Marek: Yes.
Franks: And those classes are doing well. And the daycare's still not being used.
Marek: That is correct.
Franks: Okay.
O'Shea: So going to the fitness room, what do you consider maxed at say 9:30 in the morning?
How many people would be in there?
Marek: In the fitness room?
O'Shea: Yeah, in the cardio vascular.
Marek: Oh 10 to, somewhere between 10 and 20 in that room.
O'Shea: So you could have up to 20 people.
Marek: It's tight.
O'Shea: And you feel you're at 20 people?
Marek: No, not all the time. No, but I think we could handle that.
O'Shea: Okay but you're not, I'm just thinking when I come there to work out there's room for a
lot of people to fit in there because, what I've seen in two years, to me, let me ask this. Three
years ago, four, you had more usage, correct?
Marek: In the child care room?
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
O'Shea: Well we'll start with the, well child care but I was thinking right now specifically the
cardio vascular room. Or fitness room.
Marek: Okay. I don't have numbers on the number of participants that are in there at any given
time during the day. Generally we look at punch card sales as an indicator of how those facilities
are being used. Now the last two years punch card sales have leveled off at about $75,000 to
$80,000 a year.
O'Shea: Okay, and is that a decrease from initial?
Marek: It is not a decrease. It is flat. So we've been increasing, increasing since we opened, and
leveled off`the last two years at about $78,000 Todd?
O'Shea: And that's not due to price increase per card or anything?
Marek: One of those was a price increase that happened two years ago. But the trend would still
be there even without the price increase. The number of cards sold.
O'Shea: Okay, because I thought the last time, I misunderstood. I thought there was room for
growth at the rec center, but now I'm hearing there isn't room for growth. Is that correct? For
usage.
Marek: I think that your statement is a little general. We have to talk about in what, what are you
referring to when you say growth. In what area? Do we have growth in terms of programming in
our meeting rooms? Yes. Do we have growth in some programming areas for new sports in the
gymnasium? Yes. Do we have growth in packing more people into the fitness room? You
know only between the hours of 1:00 and 3:00 p.m. The dance and aerobics studio is booked
generally all day except between noon and 3:00. So it depends on where you're looking at in
terms of growth. In some areas there room. In some areas there's not.
O'Shea: I guess I was relating more when babysitting, you know going back to babysitting, so I
don't know if you have to use the fitness room as well as where you hold the classes so I was
looking at those two. See how it can be more self sufficient, that's paying for itself is what. And
if you're saying that, then it gets back to, if those rooms are at max, then you'd be better off`to
tum the babysitting room into another cardio vascular area. The last time I heard that wasn't the
case because.
Hoffman: We want to keep it for a meeting room.
O'Shea: Okay. But see I, okay. I thought your numbers were dropping somewhat with the
participation in those two rooms.
Marek: In our aerobic class participation in the evenings particularly has declined. Use in the
aerobics studio overall has been increasing.
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
O'Shea: ...because last time you said that the babysitting was much more used. It was used a lot
more four years ago than it is today.
Marek: Right. For two years we were able to make that break even.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
O'Shea: So the people that are using the facility then must have changed. If you haven't lost
numbers.
Marek: That's quite possible. We have a lot of the same people that are still using the facility.
Their children have just gotten older.
O'Shea: But that changes your target market.
Marek: Okay.
Stolar: Do we see the impact on the new construction that's going on in that area? Potentially
bring this up.
Hoffman: Pulte.
Stolar: Pulte and I think that's the big one, right? That we visited.
Marek: I think that potential is always there. Keep in mind that our initial market for this
program is a small slice of the whole population to begin with because we're looking at the stay
at home parent who chooses to come to the rec center and do one of two things. Go to a class that
specifically happens at 9:30 in the moming, or goes to the fitness room between 9:00 a.m. and
11:00 a.m.. That's a pretty narrow window when you look at the general population. It really
you know takes our market and makes it a very small market.
Franks: Five years ago I said we'd be meeting one day to end the daycare program. For four
years you have proved me terribly wrong, and I got to the point when I read this report I was truly
sorry because I wanted to keep eating that crow for as long as I could.
Marek: I did too and Todd knows that I've worked and worked at this for a few years.
Franks: I have to say, for the benefit of the rest of the commissioners up here that, I don't think,
well there's no one I know that could have kept this program running for as long as you did and
to have tried to everything that could possibly tried from promotion and advertising within the
means that we can work, to creative staffing and everything so I really want to applaud Susan
your effort in doing that. And to start with the negative, when you have a whole page here of
positive things that are going on, that's also great but next time in interpersonal communications
it's usually best to start with the positives and then roll into the less than positives but I
appreciate...
Hoffman: Susan's braver than most.
Franks: You know I know that the newsletter suggests that it is a service that's going to be
available til March but I'm wondering if there just isn't some way to end it shortly after the first
of the year. I know we want to be fair to the people who work as well, and to give those that are
using the service some reasonable notice that it's going to be ending but.
Kelly: It's about $300 a month.
Marek: Well certainly the people in this room have the ability to pull the plug on it whenever we
decide to do that. My thought is that, I would at least like us to continue through to the end of
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
March, first of all to commit to the staff person in there and give them some planning time. And
the second thing, which has a bigger impact on my management skills, would be managing the
two aerobic instructors who's children use child care while they're working for the rec center and
teaching classes.
Franks: How much would you, how much are you projecting that this program's going to lose
between now and March?
Marek: I think we're probably looking at, well less than the 650 you see there. Probably another
500. 400 to 500. We will have more participation simply because more people partake in fitness
activities January, February, March.
Franks: Right. So we're going to have to eat about $1,000.
Marek: We are. I'm prepared to do that.
Hoffman: Rod may recall, the others probably not, that before Susan started operating this
program, this thing would lose 4,000 or 5,000.
Franks: Thousand in a year, right.
Hoffman: So Susan has done, backing on Rod's comments, a wonderful job in keeping this thing
right at the break even.
Franks: It even looked like a few years we were going to turn money on this one so.
Marek: Any concluding comments you'd like to share with me on this one?
Hoffman: Art exhibitors.
Marek: Alright. I'm going to go forward.
Franks: Are you looking for us to give you direction on what to do on this program right now?
Marek: I don't think so. I'm just collecting information. At this point my feeling as manager of
the rec center is I'm committed to have this open through March. That is my absolutely
commitment at this point in managing this program.
Franks: Okay. I think you might want to move on.
Marek: How about if we do that.
Franks: Since it is the holiday season.
Marek: Exactly. A couple of back to back fabulous art exhibits out at the rec center. The first
time we've been into the realm of photography and we've had a wonderful reception to that, and
the first photographer sold about 8 of his photographs and the second photographer, Lori
Hemandez, her show is on through the month of January so something a little different and
unusual. Sculpture is coming up on the schedule in March so that will be a different medium for
us to show out there. Moving onto the dance program. 243 enrollees. We're pretty proud of
that number at this point because we did have a big change in our dance staff so we're really
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
happy to hold that number. And really big into planning the spring recital entitled childhood
dreams, and once again we did secure the Eden Prairie Performing Arts Center. The price on
rental on that facility is about $2,400 to rent that for one night of rehearsal and one day of
performances. So that's a huge expense for us but of course we do make that up in our ticket
sales.
Hoffman: Dance is the second largest revenue generating program in the city, next to punch
cards. $40,000 or $50,000 a year. Number two.
Marek: And then going onto punch card sales. Just kind of a heads up here. December is our
biggest month for punch card sales. We do run a sale for the entire month of December. People
can buy that $40 punch card, get the 10 punch free along with it. Certainly people stock up
during this time of the year, and we have a disproportionate of sales happening during this month
because of it. Our customers really seem to think that that's a really big deal. It's a good, it gives
our customers a good feeling to know that in the December we're going to have that price break.
So even as we may consider price increases in the future, this sale in December is a good thing
and really brings in the revenues there right at the end of the year.
Kelly: Can I ask a totally unrelated question?
Marek: Of course.
Kelly: Given that a room might be opening up with child care, has the rec center ever considered
spinning as an option? Is it too expensive? Do you think it's on the way down in terms of
popularity? Is there too much up front capital that has to be invested? Is it too difficult to find a
qualified spinning instructor? Yes to all those?
Marek: Of course. Definitely not decreasing in popularity. Still I think increasing and leveling
ofl~ It's always going to be a popular option out there because of the non-impact nature of it.
Certainly there's capital expense required. It is about $750 per bicycle for spinning and we
simply haven't had that kind of capital available for those expenditures. Also there is a space
constraint because we may need 10 to 12 bikes to hold a class, but then we have to have
somewhere to put them when the class isn't in session, so that's an issue. With regard to the
room being available, child care only occupied it for 2 V2 to 3 hours in the morning and then that
room was used, is used for meetings the rest of the day.
Kelly: Okay. I was just curious because I know it's, I know it's popular. I know they had it at
Bokoo Bikes. I don't know how popular it is at Bokoo Bikes but I know you could definitely
charge a premium over and above 2 punches to go to a spinning class.
Marek: It's very popular at Bokoo Bikes, and I've been to those classes several times myself.
And I've tried a number of times to have them set their bikes up out at the rec center for a month
or two and run their classes out there but haven't been successful in firming up that arrangement
as yet.
Franks: And I agree with Commissioner Kelly on this, and maybe anything else that you want to
come up with. That although there's nothing necessarily wrong with capital expenditures. If we
present the plan that show that those expenditures are going to provide a return on our
investment, you know we will certainly take a look at that and find some ways to deal with
capital issues as best as we can. Sorry Todd to make budget busting types of statements to you
but.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Hoffman: No, that's fine but then again we could make a recommendation and just fill the entire
meeting room with capital equipment and make money. But is that our philosophy? Those four
rooms are vitally important to this community as meeting space and so it's not just can we make
money because we could make more money at the rec center.
Franks: But like a, you know something like the bikes, and you're talking about a space to do
them but I've seen it where they get moved in and they get moved out and they get moved in for
the classes and then.
Hoffman: No place to put them...
Franks: But as an example of some more creative thinking about a way to maximize the multi-
task on space. What I'm suggesting is don't let capital type of expenditures get in your way of
being creative in finding a way to.
Marek: Well I appreciate that optimistic outlook on capital expenditures.
Franks: And I also want to point out too that the Dance for Fun. That's fantastic after losing kind
of the lead person that ran and built that program, to maintain enrollment where it's at and the
excitement in the program that you have, and it just shows again I think some more leader,
programmatic leadership that we are appreciating.
Marek: It's a nice program. It's really one of the premiere programs we have out there, and you
will all receive invitations and tickets to the recital.
Hoffman: Alright.
Marek: It's a pretty big show.
Franks: Alright, thank you. Kara, are you ready?
SENIOR CENTER REPORT.
Wickenhauser: I'm ready. Good evening to everyone. Currently I'm basically working on new
programming here for the year 2000. I'm continuing to work with the Chaska Park and Rec
Department, the Eden Prairie Senior Center, and the City of Victoria to provide one day tours for
our seniors here. I do have a meeting scheduled with Joyce...with the South Shore Senior Center
to discuss possibly working with her more frequently since the two communities are so close
here. As far as one day tour, they did outline the numbers of our last tours that we bought over
the last 4 or 5 months. The only tour I don't here with a number is the holiday lighting tour that
we had last night. That was put on by Southwest Metro Transit. We used their.
Franks: Trolley?
Wickenhauser: Yes, so everyone really loved it. We could take up to 25 and we had 20 seniors
on it. They toured the city, the Chanhassen, Chaska and Eden Prairie and hit a little bit of Edina
so they just loved it, and for 2 bucks. What do you get for $2 for a 3 hour bus ride, so I think they
extended the tour for an hour so, they were loving it. Our senior center continues to offer
extended tours. This summer we did a tour to Quebec and Montreal. We had 22 people for that
event. We had 8 people who traveled to Ireland. Upcoming we have a tour to Hawaii in
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
February of 2003, and to Italy November, 2003 so it will be exciting to see how those tum out. If
anyone wants to go, go ahead and register. They all sound great. We also held our annual
holiday social this past Friday at the Recreation Center. We had 72 seniors in attendance.
Entertainment was provided by the Minnetonka Go 4's, which is a barbershop quartet. Hors
d'oeuvres were catered by Millie's Deli. Everything was excellent. The food and entertainment
was probably one of our best. Some of the new programs at the senior center is in the process of
organizing or have organized is our senior safety seminar program. We have a wood carving
project that we're working on for the new library. Our instrumental group, and an open
swimming program with the Americlnn in town here. Enclosed in your packets you'll find a
copy of both the senior safety seminar and the wood carving projects. If any of you haven't had
an opportunity to read these articles, they're great articles that outline each of these programs so
please take a chance to read them. Our senior safety seminar...back in the end of October. We
had 47 seniors from the Chanhassen community that attended. Very well received. It was a joint
effort between the City of Victoria and the City of Chanhassen. There was a lot of involvement
with the Carver County law enforcement and both fire departments from Victoria and
Chanhassen. Just a wonderful program. They want us all again to host it next year so we plan to
host it with the City of Victoria again. The wood carving club, they have met with the library
committee and have given them the go ahead to donate a wooden quilt. It's going to be a quilt of
16 blocks. They're going to do 12 x 12 blocks of buttemut and they're going to, each of them are
going to carve a historical site from Chanhassen's history and so there will be a brochure that will
be developed to go along with this quilt that's going to basically describe each historical find,
each block and then a little bit about the carver themselves. Who carved the blocks so that will be
kind of neat. So they're busy working on that right now. Our instrumental group is 8 months
new. We have 3 saxophones, a trumpet, a keyboard and a clarinet player but they're still looking
for a percussionist, a trombone and a, what else is the other one? Percussion, trombone, and what
is the other one? I can't even remember. If you know of any of those two instruments, please let
me know. And let's see, I do have a meeting set for next month with Susan Jesperson from
Americlnn to discuss the possibilities of an open swim program for this upcoming winter, so
we're hoping to, well I hope to have all the details set for this next connection. The winter
connection. The times. How many times a week, the cost and that type of thing so. Other
activities I did list in here are visits from the Chapel Hill Academy...which they met this
Monday. They came to sing and they did a game and had brought home made cookies for the
seniors. There was 25 people who enjoyed that and the Chanhassen Elementary first grade class
is going to come over next Tuesday to sing for about 20 minutes. So we've got a lot of fun things
going on and always continue to be busy so, does anyone have questions for me?
Franks: Any questions? Comments?
Spizale: Looks like you're doing a great job.
Franks: Do you want to just let them know you're here.
Spizale: I'm here .... concert. First nighter. Always great. It was at the Chan Rec Center. Yep,
the acoustics are fantastic.
Franks: Looks really good. They don't need a tour director for that Hawaii Cruise do they? Just
joking. Great. Well, seeing that there's nothing else, you're off`the hook now so, and we see that
Mr. Gregory's taking the hot seat.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE REPORT.
Gregory: Good evening. Since I wrote my report and that we've had a little bit of a change in
that. We started out with a great winter and that, it was one of the earlier years for flooding and
that. We got started a week ago. We got 3 days in, evening flooding and that and since then it's
kind of did a 180 on us and we're shut down. Looked at the weather report late this aftemoon
and I don't see anything until next week sometime that it's even going to be considering to start
flooding again so. We are back at getting a late start.
Franks: Pushing that frost down.
Gregory: We got frost in. We got a great base and everything and that. I mean if we could have
kept going like that we would have very easily had rinks open by this weekend. It wouldn't have
been any problem at all, but the way it is right now and that...on the rinks to do anything
anymore so we're pretty much on hold for that one. And once it gets cold again we'll be out
there nights and continue the flooding, so we'll get at it. This year and that the guys, we went
out, we did an extensive trimming job on all of our trails. We found a lot of them that needed
some trimming and that so we decided to hit every trail in the park, in the city that runs through
where we've got trees, anything. We went through everyone and did an extensive trimming. We
trimmed them back to the fact that we shouldn't have to do it for at least 3-4 years and that. I
mean we took them back to where we won't have to worry about trucks and safety and everything
else and that anymore so we can get through and plow them so we're in good shape for that. This
fall we also, every fall we do an extensive fertilizing program on all of our sports fields to try to
keep them up in good shape for the next spring. We aerate them. Some of them we have to slit
seed. This year we took a real hit at Lake Ann on Fields 4 and 5. That's where they have the
football for the, I believe the youth is it Jerry? Out there. And we took the real hit. It was a wet
time of the year. They played and so it, we've done a lot of extensive repairs out there and we're
hoping that everything will come through okay in the spring. We haven't had them this bad
before so we may get some comments come springtime if those two fields aren't in real good
condition, but all we can do is see when it starts in the spring and if we can maybe work at it and
keep the softball players off until right up to softball times on those two it would help greatly, so
we'll monitor them in the spring and see what they look like. We also did, with the assistance of
Jill Sinclair over at the city and that, we did an extensive tree planting and that. We had 5 city
parks that we planted 125 trees in, and it's going to be a big asset in that they're really some nice
trees. We got a good variety of trees and so we're trying to break up just the maple and ash and
everything in the parks and we're trying to get a little bit of everything and that so. That was a
big help from her. And that pretty much took care of our fall. If anybody has any questions.
Franks: I noticed the trimming right away on the trail around Lake Susan, and it looks the best
I've ever seen it look.
Gregory: They all look really good going through the woods and that now I mean, like I say we
don't have the safety hazards anymore and they needed it. They really needed it pretty bad.
Franks: And my kids were real disappointed. They were talking about getting out on the ice
because it looked to them like the ice was going to be ready and I had to explain to them, it's
going to be 45 degrees tomorrow. They weren't too happy.
Gregory: Over the weekend, it was surprising. North Lotus and several of the parks, we had a lot
of people skating on the weekend and that, but it.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Ruegemer: Was it light, medium or heavy?
Franks: Wait, I didn't see anybody on the schedule for that weekend.
Gregory: We haven't started that yet so. But like I say, we...
Franks: Ithinkthat was Amy's weekend.
Hoffman: They were skating tonight when I came...
Franks: Any other comments? Any other questions for Dale? Well, keep it up. You've got
increasingly more to work on. Alright, thank you. That looks like that finishes all the reports.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS.
Franks: Are there any commission member committee reports? The only committee we have
going right now is the revenue generating committee. Anything to report there? No? Okay.
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
Franks: Any comments on the administrative packet? No? Is this, Todd is this the first year.
This isn't the first year that they've rented tennis, or is it? Did they approach the city for that?
Hoffman: Yes.
Ruegemer: And they have interest in renting again in 2003. I believe for spring for their, I think
girls program.
Franks: Is that going to be during the day or are they also going to use evening or?
Ruegemer: No, that was primarily that, right after school. 3:00 to 5:00 timeframe, which for the
most part did not interfere with any other types of community based recreation.
Franks: That's excellent. I'm wondering if there's, well those types of, could be promoted
somehow. I mean if, that might not be the only organization that maybe doesn't know that they
can utilize those facilities, or we might be able to off'er them to them for use.
Hoffman: We discussed that in our revenue brainstorming session last Thursday, at the direction
of the council and the city manager. I'll talk about that briefly when we go to the correspondence.
And one of the items that Jerry and I talked about is coming up with a catalog of the public
facilities that we have available that could be rented.
Franks: Excellent. Great. And I did count, just to make sure that everybody had 3 times listed
on the volunteer rink attendant schedule.
Ruegemer: I'm trying to keep it as even as possible.
Franks: And my question is, now I thought when I was first reading it that we are supposed to
drive around and take a look at all the rinks.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Ruegemer: That's correct. During that time.
Franks: Oh it is?
Hoffman: Six of them.
Franks: Okay. But you want us to, when it's during our day to look at.
Ruegemer: To look at all six during those times.
Franks: So like at, okay. All six during those times.
Ruegemer: So 1:00 Rod, you can pick if you start at Minnewashta Heights and kind of chart your
course.
Franks: And do them all.
Ruegemer: Right. I was going to include base maps for you guys as well if you don't know
where...
Franks: And then are you going to copy out a whole list of these for us too?
Ruegemer: Right.
Franks: Oh, will you put them in the mail so we've got enough?
Ruegemer: Yep. That was just kind ofjust a copy of it so you could kind of take a look at it.
Franks: And we're counting bodies, not skate marks.
Ruegemer: That's correct.
O'Shea: Not low, medium.
Hoffman: People with skates or people with boots?
Franks: I think we should count bodies.
Spizale: I agree, yeah.
Franks: We don't need to be restrictive about how people are using this ice. Count the bodies. It
doesn't matter. So you'll send out enough forms so that will be 6 times the 3 that we're out so.
Stolar: I only have one and I need to trade that so if anyone wants to trade 2 for 1, I'd be happy
to. I'll take 2 on the weekends but I've got to work that Monday, December 30th so I won't be
able to do it.
Hoffman: There you go.
Stolar: th
I only have one day, Monday, December 30 but I work that day.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Franks: Well I'll take it. I'm offevery Monday.
Stolar: ...e-mail to address this but I'll send out an e-mail saying if someone wants to swap out.
The only weekend I can't do it is the 18th and 19th. I'm out of town.
Ruegemer: Would it be helpful for the commission to have base maps? Would you like me to
highlight the individual parks within the system and.
Franks: That'd be great.
Ruegemer: Do you want me to rank them in order from east to west, north to south? I can do
that.
Franks: You know we're just volunteers. We wouldn't figure that typically out on our own.
Thanks for including the community center focus group. Any other comments on the
administrative packet?
Hoffman: An additional item. Last Thursday for oh an hour or so, staff met with the city
manager to talk about revenue producing ideas to present to the City Council last night. The staff
identified $40,000 in additional revenue generating ideas that we believe we can come up with...
They liked some of the ideas. They liked a majority of the ideas. They didn't like a couple, there
were two that they did not like particularly were the idea of putting a $5 car charge at the Lake
Ann fireworks so as you drive in you would pay $5 a car to park at Lake Ann Park during the
fireworks. Second one was a $10 per year membership or general fee for the senior center. So
their costs associated with operating the senior center like the coffee, supplies and they didn't like
that. The ones that they felt comfortable with I believe are punch card increase, which we feel
will generate about $15,000 in additional revenue. A general across the board fee increase on all
of our recreation programs, which when we printed out the last was somewhere in the 3 to 400's
programs, and that's about a $12,000 increase. And those are the biggee's. There were some
other areas, smaller items included in there. We had a list and I'll include that in your January
packet, a list of...approximately year is $360,000 currently so that's going to push it up to
$400,000. That $400,000 in revenue coming from departments which probably account for about
a half a million dollars in expenditures when you come right down to it. So there is increased
discussion at the council level, increased discussion at the commission level about making these
things pay for themselves, and so when we take a hard look at our recreation programming and
recreation facilities, we're actually doing pretty well. If you take out park maintenance, if you
want to start making money on park maintenance and taking care of the trails and parks, then
we're going to have a much longer conversation...Lake Ann Park and charge for trail use and,
but by and large we're doing fairly well with revenues so we're up from 360 to 400. Those are
some pretty good dollars for the organization... The list goes from, the majority of that revenue is
generated right at the rec center, so when you talk about priorities at the rec center, well is our
priority making money or providing service? The rooms make $16,000 or $18,000 a year and so
we give those rooms away all the time. You've heard me say it before, and that's vitally
important to this community. Those concerts this evening, those rooms were all filled with free
ensembles before they head off and go into the gymnasium and sing. And so if we pack them
full, like has been talked about making one a dance studio. Making one an aerobics room, that
takes it out of the general use areas of the public so. We also enlisted an additional $60,000 in
cuts to our budget. Our general operating budget with the City Council last night, and in general
that was in the area of temporary wages, maintenance materials, and maintenance equipment. So
that was $100,000 in total that we offered to the City Council. They felt fairly comfortable with
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
that I think. The action by the council last night conceming the budget was to approve the budget
as presented with the exception of cutting $300,000, which had been identified by staff; but the
council did not specify where the $300,000 would be cut. They left that up to the decision of the
incoming City Council. And then I referenced our changes in capital funding, and I'll include
that in your January packet. There were extensive changes in the capital budget, and we're
spending Fund 410, the park and trail dedication fund right now into the hundreds of thousands,
not the millions, and so the library. $700,000 for the park. 5 ~2 of that comes from park
dedication. These playground replacements that we talked about with the playgrounds, that's
going out. And trail connections. So there's some heavy pressure on the park fund right now.
Franks: Is it possible on the library commons, I mean City Center Commons, or is it Library
Commons?
Hoffman: City Center.
Franks: City Center Commons. You know the, my understanding is that they'll, from the
meeting last night anyway, was that the building's going to come in under estimate, or what was
budgeted.
Hoffman: There's a percentage dedicated, about $175,000. Anywhere from 125 to 175 of that
money dedicated.
Franks: And if they don't build the coffee shop, is there any way.
Stolar: Friends space.
Franks: Friends space. The friends space. Is there ways for those funds to be translated into the
City Center Commons project or are those like dedicated to specific funds?
Hoffman: No, there's always that opportunity.
Franks: There is.
Hoffman: There is more change orders on future... We don't know where that will...
Franks: But it is possible for some of these funds to be, they're not completely dedicated to
building or to park?
Hoffman: No.
Franks: Okay.
Stolar: But then we could potentially, at least make a proposal to City Council to.
Hoffman: That's already in the plan. There's dollars coming over from the library referendum to
help fund this park, but they're limited right now to about 125 to 175.
Franks: Okay.
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Park and Rec Commission December 10, 2002
Kelly: I just want to say the 101 North trail, even better from the 101 South trail. I like the way
it kind of winds up by the park and then it has a kind of outlook area when you get past Choctaw.
I thought it was really, really nice.
Hoffman: Take a run?
Kelly: A couple, yes.
Spizale: ...this one spot's not connected, right?
Hoffman: There was a property owner dispute that they did not want to go along with how the
project was being proposed to them. The compensation so that property was put under a quick
take and the easement, the necessary easements have now been acquired but past the time of
construction so it will be finished this spring.
Kelly: And that's just at the very end, right? That's on the way to Pleasant View. The last halfa
block or whatever.
Hoffman: Right.
Franks: Alright. Seeing that there's no other comments regarding the administrative packet, is
there a motion to adjoum?
Kelly moved, Spizale seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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