PRC 2002 07 23CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
JULY 23, 2002
Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Jack Spizale, Amy O'Shea, Glenn Stolar, Paula Atkins,
Tom Kelly and David Happe
MEMBERS ABSENT: None.
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director and Corey Hoen, Recreation
Supervisor
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: The agenda was amended to add an item number 6, discussion
points for the joint meeting with the City Council and Park and Recreation Commission.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
Andy Joe: Hi. My name is Andy Joe. My address is 563 Summerfield Drive, and that's in the
Springfield development. And we live just on the north side of Bandimere Park. There's a
drainage pond just between the soccer fields and our back yard, and so there's a couple issues I
just wanted to address and bring up. First issue is, the way the soccer fields are situated, where
you typically end up with, at least on an average of 2 to 3 soccer balls in our pond, you know
during the course of a week. A lot of times, like let's see here. Just like last week, there was
about 6 balls that ended up in the pond during one of the toumament nights. There's another
incident this weekend where one of the team coaches allowed some of the players to urinate on
some of the neighbor's trees. So there's really no delineation of where the Bandimere property
line ends and where the neighborhood starts, or the homeowner's property starts. So really
there's, the problem again arises because the soccer ball ends up in the neighborhood yards, in the
pond, and then of course you know they've got to try to retrieve their balls. So you get strangers
walking in our back yards. Over the course of the last couple of years I've seen, you know most
of the soccer people are real nice, and most of them are pretty good about trying to retrieve their
balls but every once in a while you tend to get people you know even some of the adults, trying to
break branches offofthe trees. You know trying to use them as sticks or an object to retrieve
their balls. My wife has had some people come and take landscaping rocks out of our
landscaping and throwing them in the pond trying to get them to splash and causing the waves to
carry the soccer balls to the edge. There's other incidents. Another incident was last year a kid
even stripped down to his shorts, jumped into the pond and swam to retrieve his ball. So you
know like I said, I understand that the soccer teams, they need to try to retrieve their equipment
but it's also disturbing when you get strangers walking in your back yard and your children are in
the back yard playing and you don't know who they are so. So that's sort ofa concem that we
have. The park maintenance tried an attempt at fixing it a couple times by putting up one of those
like plastic snow fences along the edges there which is again 4 feet high, and that sort of resolved
the problem a little bit. You know about half the balls would hit it and it would stop it. The other
half would either go over it and, or to the side of it. The other problem with that too is that after
every winter the plastic fencing would get all crushed and break off and get brittley and it would
end up you know with the high winds we have in Chanhassen, they end up breaking off and
Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
flying off into Bandimere somewhere. So it also tends to be quite an eyesore with a fence that's
all beat up and ripped apart so. I guess what we would like to see is some type of shrubbery or
hedges planted along that north side there. I think that would solve the problem of most of the
soccer balls going into the pond or into the neighborhood. They would also act as a natural buffer
zone in keeping debris and garbage out of the pond, which is what they're designed you know to
keep. You know to keep our waters and that, the environmental hazards out of it so I think that
would help. And in addition also I think it would be nice to have some private property signs put
up so the people in the park are aware that this is homeowners property and they might think
about not breaking off`branches from the trees and so forth, you know so. The second issue I'd
like to bring up is the issue of tennis courts. I read the minutes from the last, the previous two
meetings, and there's some comments made about tennis courts not being very popular anymore
and not being used. Well my wife went out this afternoon and decided to see how many people
would sign a petition as far as wanting tennis courts in Bandimere, and she's got a list of 25, do
my math here. 32 names. This is what, in 2 V2 hours. So we would like to see the tennis courts
remain. And the other thing I was looking at too is, there's some comments about the hard court,
which is like a hop scotch court or something like that, because of Phase II of the playground area
not having space. So my thoughts on that was, combine both the tennis court and the hop scotch
court and basketball court all in one area. It's all asphalt and then you've got 3 things you can do
in one area. So just a thought. But anyways, like I said, we got 32 names, or families that would
like a tennis court in Bandimere Park. Third issue I'd like to bring up are the ballfield lighting.
And again most of the residents in Springfield, and in our neighborhood, feel opposed to having
lighting at least directly on the soccer fields. If not lighting in the whole park itself, but the
immediate concem is the soccer fields because there's a bunch of homes that back up right to the
soccer fields itself. Part of the problem too, once you bring in lights, it expands the amount of
time that you have noise from tournaments, people yelling, shouting. You know depending on
what time the lights go off at night. I've seen playing softball games at other parks in the past,
you have people out in the parks until 10:00-10:30 at night. You know games going on that late
at night, and depending on what kind of drinking restrictions you have or don't have, you know
people tend to hang around and socialize and that too so you still get noise from the park. So
again my wife went around the neighborhood and collected 29 signatures here. Neighbors from
Springfield that would, are opposed to ballfield lights. A couple just other items too. One, I just
wanted to touch on was the tree maintenance. There's a dead pine tree on the comer of, one of
the soccer fields I just wanted to bring up. I didn't know who I should contact about that. The
second thing is just more or less a comment, since you guys are the Park and Rec Commission.
I've talked with a lot of other friends through baseball and that and their kids play soccer at
Bandimere and they always, the one comment I always hear is, parking's a nightmare over there
because of how many games and how many kids they have going on over there. The other
comment I get, or I hear a lot is the entrance to the park being on top of a hill is sort of dangerous.
It's sort of in a blind spot so I just thought I'd pass along those last two comments. And that's
about it.
Franks: Great, thank you.
Andy Joe: Thank you.
Franks: Is there anyone else wishing to address the commission on these same, similar issues?
Maybe we'll just hear from everybody and then we'll take discussions from the commission.
Ron Styrka: Yes, hello. My name is Ron Styrka and I'm at 569 Summerfield Drive also and it's
the same kind of situation too. Basically there's a lot of activity that happens in the park, and it's
good activity, and the neighborhood really does like it. I mean to hear the shouting on Sundays
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
and everything, it's really good. We do have a lot of fun with it, and limiting the amount of use,
especially with the lights, especially on the soccer fields.., would actually be a benefit because
other friends of mine live in neighborhoods where they have lighting and it seems like it goes
longer and longer and longer. It gets really late into the evening and it does cause a lot of noise
and I did speak with, I'm not sure if it was Todd or Corey, about the possibility of something very
similar to what Andy was saying. If we could have some kind of natural barrier like a sumac
bush or something that grow up really tall that could prevent some of these balls from going into
the lake, it really would take a lot of the pressure off the balls going into this pond. And yet it
wouldn't be an eyesore like a very high fence would be, so I mean I agree with all that Andy is
saying. The neighborhood feels very similar to that too so. The only other thing that I mentioned
too is, in reading through the notes, I take a little bit of a conservative approach for some of the
expenses being spent sometimes in Bandimere Park, and if we're looking at $25,000 being the,
you know for the silo and some of those issues, I personally feel, as do other people in the
neighborhood too. Maybe take some of that money and redirect it for more of the paths because
Chanhassen currently is kind of a little bit broken up as far as paths. As far as bikes and that
coming in from the south. I do know that there's a corridor that's being repaired to go from the
south, you know to get into downtown but if we could maybe redirect some of that money
towards some of these paths, a lot of people would use it. Especially when you have some of
these retail shops being developed over by St. Hubert's. I mean a lot of people are biking on the
trails and actually riding bike as a family kind of coming and going out so I take the approach of
maybe redirecting the money for the silo painting or something like this and maybe redirect it
more. And the price of some of the lighting. Redirect some of that towards a path and I think
you would have a huge benefit.
Franks: For your benefit, I can just respond to a few of the arguments, and Todd I'd just request
that you jump in as you feel is appropriate, but just to start with some of the Joe's, and some of
the things he came with at the end. Tree maintenance I'm sure Todd has noted. He'll direct the
maintenance staff to take a look at that as we're continually replacing and reforesting the trees in
the parks system. Parking. It's already been identified as a problem and the Park and Rec
Department, as well as the commission is taking a look at that and attempting to work with both
associations to try and do what we can to rectify the parking. The entrance has been a difficulty
from day one. However, that's the one spot that MnDot allows for the entrance into the park, and
we've also attempted to make the best of that situation by creating that island so people at least
have to slow down as they get to the crest of the hill and look before they make a left tum, but we
have accidents from the day the park opened.., so we've been working on that continually too.
The tennis courts were part of the original concept plan for Bandimere, and since that time the
philosophy of this commission has been to add tennis courts as an amenity in regionally located
parks instead of into neighborhood parks, and Bandimere Community Park, Bandimere would fit
that designation. However, the utilization of tennis courts throughout the city has been in decline
and there are a number of really nice lighted tennis facilities that are available. We drove to
today at Lake Susan and City Center and there wasn't anybody playing, so that's something we
are continually taking a look at. The commission is currently considering tennis courts as an
issue as we look into our capital improvement program out for the next 5 years so it's good to
know that people are talking about it and thinking about it too. It's good information for us to
have as we engage in that process.
Resident: Just the one other thing about Bandimere, it's such an easy access for all the homes in
Springfield...people to walk over and play tennis as opposed to jumping in a car with all the kids.
Franks: The thing to remember is that Bandimere, I'm not trying to argue. The idea, Bandimere
is in a unique position as far as the Springfield neighborhood is concemed because it has the
Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
ability to function as a Springfield neighborhood park, and yet at the same time it's a community
park as well so what the residents of Springfield view of Bandimere Park might be slightly
different than the view of this commission and how we conceptualize Bandimere Park as well,
but that again is important for us to understand your perspective as well. Personally I kind of like
the idea of trying to deal with the ball screening with a natural kind of screening. I don't have
any idea of the effectiveness or plant varieties or how many years it would take to build up a
natural screen for that pond issue. Todd, what's been the word from the sports associations on
balls in the NURP pond?
Hoffman: The fences that are out there were installed by the soccer association as an attempt to
minimize that. In conversation with both the neighbors and the association, we budgeted I
believe it was about $10,000 or $12,000 to put up what would be black netting, and so there'd
be...not very visible. But then galvanized poles I believe up to about 12 feet, and that was cut
from the budget and so they were not installed. Vegetation of the height sufficient to stop those
soccer balls from going in, do not, with the shrub area is going to be... so you're going to have a
better impact on identifying the property line. People are still going to cross to get those soccer
balls, if they want to retrieve their soccer balls from the ponds, so it's a problem on both sides.
The north side and the south side, and the south side they head out down into the trees and so we
would like to net, put nets up on both of those sides to stop that, or reduce that situation.
Resident: I don't think the problem is as bad on the soccer field as opposed to the connection.
There is a berm there, as you get closer to the kind of... That side is definitely bad. I mean it
slopes right down into your pond, and I think as you get more closer to the...berm as a natural
stopping point...
Ron Stryka: We never see anybody go in those other yards but one thing that we did see, this
one night I was.., most of the balls are...they're rolling over the edge and that 4 foot height stops
most of them and so we thought let's say that you started with say a sumac or something... Sumac
bush and they grow, they start here so the first year you're...
Stolar: Which homes are your's?
Ron Stryka: I'm in this house and Andy's here.
Franks: And can you point out the property lines actually?
Ron Stryka: The property lines are right, you know mine goes behind. It comes like this and
then, well it's kind of a complicated story but the next property line kind of runs right along the
fence .... halfway between this trail and the actual line. The one person has the grass cut really
smooth so when the balls go past a little bit... So what we're looking for is just something low
cost and we're looking at something that looks good and very appealing. You know if we could
do something...
Franks: Are you suggesting, just one question. Are you suggesting that these bushes be planted
on the property owner's property?
Ron Stryka: City property.
Franks: Is there enough city property there?
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Hoffman: We'll take a look at that. As a part of the 2003 budget, I'll simply bring forward a
variety of altematives for the commission to consider and.., and ask the council...
Franks: Are the sports associations, if you would check with them and see if they're willing to
participate...
Hoffman: Sure.
Andy Joe: So this is something... In the near term I would hope still exists where the netting.
Pam Joe: Yeah. If we could just put that fence back.
Andy Joe: Yeah, in the near term because a quick solution, just rehang that.., netting to stop.
Pam Joe: ...it really helps.
Franks: Well we'll have.
Hoffman: We'll call the soccer association.
Franks: Yeah, great. And then you take a look at it, staff`and provide some altematives.
Hoffman: ...regarding the input from the residents. I believe all the deeds for Summerfield
include a disclosure that Bandimere would be a lighted facility in the future. And then the third
choice of access for Bandimere was actually through the Summerfield development, but
Lundgren was not interested in cooperating with the city to provide... The original access without
the median was a bad situation. Now, since the medians have been put in, we probably had a
dozen accidents in half a year before the median and afterwards I know one in the past year and a
half so... so that has really helped.
Resident: Were lights on both the soccer fields and softball fields part of the disclosure or just
softball fields?
Hoffman: All the fields I believe.
Resident: Because I remember the softball fields but they never mentioned the lighting on the
soccer fields. We thought that they were so far removed they wouldn't affect hardly anyone in
Springfield development, but the soccer lights would affect a lot of people. I remember
specifically asking that question to Lundgren and getting, they may put lights on the softball
fields you know in 2010.
Franks: This is why I brought up the difference between Bandimere Park as a community park as
opposed to a neighborhood park. We would not light the fields in neighborhood parks simply
because of what a neighborhood park, and you don't use neighborhood parks for that kind
of...but a community park on the other hand is designed for more intensive programming. And
the idea behind creating a soccer field there, which is probably our premiere soccer facility in the
city, was to maximize it's utilization and to really accomplish that, we look at lighting it as well.
Pam Joe: ...the whole neighborhood or...
Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Franks: Well you know, lighting is also something that we consider when we develop our capital
improvement plan and it stretches out for a 5 year period so we haven't formalized that plan yet.
It's necessary for us to work with consultants and engineers when we design a lighting plan for a
field. I'm not aware if we have any current recommendations on what the lighting concept would
be.
Hoffman: The concept about lighting athletic fields into the future is that, as the population
grows and the demand goes up, instead of having to acquire additional land...you add lighting
and you gain that additional space. So until we reach that point you really don't need to go
through the exercise of deciding. The progression of lighting started from the first soccer field
closest to 101, but it would be some economies made in lighting those two fields because you'd
have one set of lights going down the center and lighting both sides, so that would also be looked
at at that time...
O'Shea: I have a question with that. If they were lit, and it sounds like it's not an immediate
concern but what time do they have to be tumed off?
Hoffman: 10:00 p.m.
O'Shea: 10:00 p.m...
Stolar: In the fall you get a lot more time than in the summer... I think it's important to
know.., with regards to the land because this, that was the position in Eden Prairie also and it was
pretty clear that the homeowners...next to a community park, it was delineated what they should
expect in terms of that house of choice. I want to know what the information was that you were
supposed to be given. I can't say whether Lundgren gave, or anybody gave it, but if it's in
there... I think should drive our decision when we get to that.
Franks: Notification before that comes up before the commission is provided to the residents
affected so they would have the opportunity to come in.
Hoffman: It's also important to note that that was a condition of approval of the Summerfield
Addition that Lundgren do that. If they did not perform those disclosures, that does not prevent
the city from putting those lights on those soccer fields.
Stolar: I understand.
Franks: That doesn't make it any better for you, but it helps at least explain the process and when
it does come up, when the time arises when we need to be utilizing those fields in that way, that
certainly people's input is requested and appreciated here on this commission. Since I had you
make comments on the record, if you could just state your name and address so, up at the podium
so we get your right name.
Pam Joe: Pam Joe, 563 Summerfield Drive. And could I ask what the time frame, when do we
have to worry about this? You said it wouldn't be...
Hoffman: Lighting?
Pam Joe: Yes.
Hoffman: It's not been brought up on our 5 year capital improvement program.
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Franks: The lighting is not...Thanks. Thank you for coming. Any comments from commission?
O'Shea: Just one question. Since you're here, do you have any type of...or if the city came back
and said we...to the neighbors? Did you have a certain height in mind that you would not want to
Audience: No.
O'Shea: So you don't care about the visibility... ?
Audience: No.
O'Shea: Okay. So height is not a concern. As long as it's...
Pam Joe: The higher the better.
Andy Joe: As long as it does the objective which is to help keep the soccer kids keep their balls
on that field.
Happe: Rod, I had a couple quick comments. I want to thank you for doing all that legwork.
Thank you for walking around and getting a sampling. As far as the tennis court question, do you
have opposite, I mean was there an equal number of people that were saying don't put tennis
courts in?
Pam Joe: That's everybody I got to...everybody was totally... Like I said, I could probably take
another day and get the rest of them.
Happe: Okay. Thank you for doing that too. I like the natural screen idea. I'm wondering ifa
berm extending down through that actual length in front of the pond might be a cost effective
option. Maybe it's a combination there. Maybe it's a berm with some brush or some trees or.
Hoffman: A berm would probably...the original landscaping that's already there. We can look at
that.
Happe: Okay. As it pertains to the parking question, do we complete or has there been a parking
needs analysis done on a park like this so we know at full build-out in 2025 when this park is
being fully utilized, is there a needs analysis as such done to determine how many parking spaces
we need to support the park?
Hoffman: Prior to it's construction. Parking is, parking is available is designed appropriate to the
facilities that are there during peak use hours. Then there's these overlaps and that's where we
get into the, and that's a scheduling issue and to schedule the soccer association, it's important...
Saturday soccer times and...and when parents bring 2 cars to the field, 4 different grandparents...
Kelly: And you know on Greenview, which is the road that almost parallels the path, they do
park up and down that road on Saturdays and Sundays for the soccer games. Some parents have
discovered the quick access right onto the fields. I know that's aggravated some of the
homeowners because people have talked to me in front of their homes. It's not the same car all
day but it's rotating in and out and that's becoming more and more of an issue as this is
happening more and more.
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Happe: That's all the comments I have.
Kelly: ...we are hopefully in the fall we're going to have a link path. Right now there's a path
that goes down 101 towards Bandimere and it stops at Chanhassen Hills. In the late summer or
fall. Actually it's going to be fall because it's late summer already. They're going to continue
that path from where it stops down 101 and it's going to cross over behind and it will actually end
at the entrance of Bandimere Park .... There was a neighbor who works in the library and she
wasn't aware of it. I told her about the plan. It's just more paths like that, I guess...
Hoffman: ... aerial I can point out the location designated for tennis courts just behind this
ballfield right here. And one of the concerns with the master planning for Bandimere Park was
that tennis courts were not a priority, and since they were not a priority they did not get one of the
key locations adjacent to parking. And so it's quite a walk from the parking lot to this location.
And so the justification of those tennis courts becomes more difficult because of that situation.
Stolar: Todd, would that also be considered a temporary structure because of the pipeline?
Hoffman: The tennis courts, we can build a tennis court on top of it. Likewise, our choice would
not be to do it. I don't believe that...
Franks: Paula?
Atkins: No.
Franks: Thank you again for coming. Well it appears to me there's no one else in the audience
here for visitor presentation. We'll move onto our next agenda item which is approval of the
minutes dated June 25, 2002. Are there any commissioners with comments with regards to the
minutes?
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Spizale moved, O'Shea seconded to approve the minutes of the
Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated June 25, 2002 as presented. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
CONCEPTUAL PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT (PUD) OF 88.5 ACRES OF
PROPERTY FOR 540 UNITS ZONED AGRICULTURAL ESTATE, TONY AND LUIGI
BERNARDI, TOWN AND COUNTRY HOMES.
Hoffman: Thanks Chair Franks, members of the commission. We toured the property this
evening just to get an on the site visual of the property that is being proposed for development. I
call it the last flat piece of property in southem Chanhassen. It's a good piece of property for
development. It connects into some properties to the east. Sever Peterson property. There also is
a influence by the Bluff`Creek corridor in the Bluff`Creek area. It's separated by the bluff`there
in the 2005 area development. This is really the south half of that. South of Bluff Creek. And
then we have the north half which is generally...to be the Degler property. First we will talk
about that tonight or conceptually how does this particular piece of property fit into the other
properties to the east. Not only the Peterson, but then the Jeurissen property there as well. So
transportation is a big issue for the commission. Pedestrian transportation. Where these
roadways go. How they cross the creek corridor. As we stood out there this evening it got us
wondering how we're going to get people across Audubon Road. The traffic north and south in
this location is a very busy street. There was a lot of talk about the recreational needs of these
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
folks. Our comprehensive plan specifies that everyone will have a neighborhood park facility
within one-half mile of their front door. Obviously 540 units, we're going to have a need for
some park areas. A general...75 people so we start to take a look at that compulation and we start
to get an idea of the size of the facility that we'll see. Generally a public facility, we do not
accept public areas any smaller than 5 acres in neighborhood parks simply because we don't want
to maintain. . . small park locations. So we'll talk about it. Are there going to be association
amenities here or is that...public facilities on this property or on adjoining properties. Just start
the conversation and then as Town and Country moves through their development process we'll
get back together with them and talk more specifically about the recommendations that you
would have concerning those issues. And we have Krista Flemming and Krista Novack...and
we'll let them start with their presentation.
Krista Flemming: Good evening and thank you Todd for the introduction. Again my name is
Krista Flemming and I'm with Town and Country Homes. I'm the Project Manager in the land
development department and I have Krista Novack with me. She is the Assistant Project
Manager. And Todd has really kind of wrapped it all up in a nutshell. We're here tonight to look
at the Bemardi property in particular, but also the entire area because this area as I'm sure you're
well aware, is going to be brought into the MUSA line in 2005 and we just happen to be the first
parcel, the first group that's coming forward to kind of get everybody's suggestions and get
everybody thinking about what's going to happen, not only for this area, this parcel, but for the
whole area. This map represents an aerial view of showing the Bemardi parcel here. Audubon,
Lyman and this red area through here represents the current alignment shown for the Highway
312/212 corridor. That would come through so you can get an idea approximately to the existing
neighborhoods that are in this area, and the existing farms that are in the area, as well as the road
system so it gives you a little bit of a, kind of an idea of where that's going. At this point we have
been meeting diligently with the community development staff and some of the engineering staff
just to take a look at how the comprehensive plan is involved with this property, as well as the
entire area. I mean had a very nice neighborhood meeting with all of these property owners put
on by Kate Aanenson, and also the City Engineer was also present and just took at look at the fact
that this area's going to develop sometime and what are their feelings on different connections.
Different, where we actually have to put some of the sewer and water and things like that to deal
with the topography out here and just starting to get thoughts and really get people thinking about
it so that when 2005 comes, which is amazingly right around the comer, we're not asking those
questions there. We're planning ahead. This project here, this concept plan just focusing on the
Bemardi property, is a very general layout that we've put together. It identifies nodes of multi-
family, living styles with main connections. Todd had actually pointed out where there's an
existing connection that goes into a neighborhood here I believe in Chaska, and logically there's
going to, that's going to be one of the locations where it's going to be the main access into this
property. I don't know what is planned for any type of signalization or anything on this road.
That's something that again the engineering staff and planning staff are working with the county
to try to take a look at what needs to happen with these connections. But as you can see, there's
going to need to be some type of connection that goes into this property adjacent to us, and then
up into these properties. As far as the Park and Rec's concerns within the Bernardi property,
what we've identified is first of all the overlay district, in these green areas here and we went out
on the site and walked it with staff`to take a look at those areas and make sure they're supposed to
be in the bluff overlay district. And they are, and we're adhering to a lot of the different
requirements of the overlay district, but we also found out that there is some high upland in some
of these areas that could technically be developed. Or given a density transfer, something along
those lines to preserve them as a whole. And so that's why we've designated them in green
because we think with the steep slopes and the wooded areas, that those are really going to be
some nice areas to preserve. There's a really nice wetland up in this area and just keeping those
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
intact. And then secondly, as far as the park concerns are addressed, we've identified as nodes of
green spaces, and at this point we've just generally identified them as in some of these linkages to
provide not only a nice access into the community as these connection points, but also visibility
to the park area where people in this community may be wanting to use some of these areas and
we really just generally identified them, and that's why we're here tonight. Just to get some more
input from Park and Rec Board on trails and park areas. And then also to take a look at how, you
know what preferences there are for park dedication and that type of thing. We have not
specifically identified if we're going to have private or public areas. That's something we'd like
to have more discussions on, and we're open to that but we also like to know how that fits with
park dedication regulations and I know typically when you have private, and there's still park fees
but when you have public, sometimes there's the land in lieu of fees, that type of thing. So those
are just things that we need to know to go forward and bring in a more detailed plan. So with that
I guess I'll open myself up to questions and just listen to your discussion.
Franks: Before we start, if it's okay Todd if you just want to give the quick run down on the
parkland dedication or park fee scenario.
Hoffman: We split it up into park and trail fees. And so our park fees are based on a per unit and
our trail fees are one-third of the cost of the individual park fees. And they're dedicated funds
that go for park development and trail development individually. In this area we generally we
think about 10 percent of the land could be taken as a dedication for a public park. Park surface.
Or again doing the calculations in reverse, which typically comes our very close is 1 acre per 75
people so we take the calculation of the number of residents that are going to be moving into this
development. Plot that out with the 75 per acre and...calculation. Many of the folks that are
doing this type of development prefer to have an association type of facility. I'm not sure if that's
your preference or not for management of their property in the future. In that case the city has
allowed those private facilities to be developed, but then we've also required the park and trail
dedication fees on top of that for use in other facilities throughout the community. In
neighborhood park or community parks and our trail system. And so there could be a
combination. It's generally just needs to be an arrangement between yourselves and the city on
how you would like to see those developed. If it's a public amenity, we're going to want.., see
that with the development. If it's a private development, you have much more discretion where
you want to put it and...locate that within your property. In general the park and trail fees of this
project are right around.., so that's the amount of dollars that we're talking when you start to
calculate 540 units... Those are the dollars that we're talking. We simply want to make sure that
there are amenities available for these folks that are significant enough to handle what is going to
be a very large community in here, so that's the conversation that needs to continue. You can sit
down with the staff and talk about it as well once we hear the preferences from the commission.
The commission members.., everyone's familiar with multi-family developments in this
community and other communities they've lived in and we'll hear their opinions and get their
thoughts.
Krista Flemming: I had one question after listening to your explanation. In addition to the
public, or neighborhood and private parks that the city wants to see within the development to
meet the 1 per 75 people, that type of thing, are there any benefits to let's say these areas that are
nice wooded area that are designated dedicated to the city as opposed to just having an easement
for protection over it? Are there any benefits to doing that? Is there any credit that's given for an
open space value because there are some areas that are developable, and I guess I'm just trying to
see if there's aside from just parks and actual activity spaces, is there a policy that the City of
Chanhassen has on open space dedication?
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Hoffman: Sure. Those two areas are governed by the Bluff`Creek Overlay, and so they're going
to be dedicated as part of the Bluff`Creek Overlay, and that takes precedence. And if there are
areas in there that are developable, and you'd like to take the density transfer out, then you're
gaining some use from them so yep, we will, you will not get credit for those as a part of the park
dedication credits.
Krista Flemming: Okay.
Hoffman: If there's areas in there that are developable, let's say you identify 3 acres here but you
want to take the density out, then you're still going to be govemed by the Bluff`Creek Overlay
which says this area has been identified by the city as wanting to be preserved, but there may
need to be some park dedication...because even though it's identified that you would like to have
it preserved, you simply can't take that value away from.., and so you take the transfer, the
density transfer and then...
Krista Flemming: I think that's my only question. One other piece of information is that, we
have this property, the Bemardi property under contract. This one we're talking about tonight.
We have also now entered into a contract with the Jeurissen property over here, and if it's
appropriate tonight, I mean you're going to be looking at the whole area and we're talking about.
I guess what I'm looking at is if there's any regional trails or any major parks that have been
planned through a park plan or anything like that that needs to go just into this area that we need
to try to provide connections to also that's all valid information.
Hoffman: The major regional trail is along Bluff Creek. Right through the center of the creek.
Krista Flemming: Right through the creek?
Hoffman: Right through the center of the creek. That trail will come all the way down through
Lyman, through the creek corridor, right through the Jeurissen property and...as well and down to
Pioneer Trail. And so this is a major trail corridor and we want to see trails, sidewalks and trails
on these major connection streets and then aligning.., so there's a trail map that we provide you
that will show those corridors, and then they'll also be shown in the Bluff Creek Corridor Study.
The Bluff`Creek Corridor Study goes into great explanation about what the City desires to see as
far as amenities in the Bluff Creek corridor.
Krista Flemming: Alright.
Franks: IfI can just have you stay a little more comfortable at the podium in case commissioners
direct questions at you...bring it back to the commission for comments and questions. Paula, do
you want to start?
Atkins: I don't have anything at the moment.
Franks: Well you let me know. Amy?
O'Shea: Just one thing, you mentioned the other property you're possibly going to build on too.
Do you know what type of homes, houses would be there? If it would be this same type of
development or single family? Do you have any idea?
Krista Flemming: We've just started our review process on that piece of property and we've been
discussing some of it with Kate Aanenson and how it relates to the comprehensive guide plan and
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
right now it's either going to be a low or medium density residential. We don't know exactly at
this point if it will be multiple or single family, but it will fit within the guide lines of the
comprehensive plan.
O'Shea: How many acres is that?
Krista Flemming: The Jeurissen property or the Bemardi?
O'Shea: No, the Jeurissen.
Krista Flemming: The Jeurissen property is I believe 23 acres.
O'Shea: That's all I have for right now.
Franks: One of the comments that I might have for you is, you'll probably find that this
commission is going to make sure that if you build a private amenity project for the development,
that those amenities be of sufficient caliber along with the quality to meet the needs of the
residents that would be there. So we'd be considering active recreation amenities that would
follow from young age to older age and not, and be a sufficient amount. So we've all had the
opportunity to see the kind of classic townhome developments with a very inadequate totlot. I
know we don't use that word anymore so I don't know, amenities space or amenity zone.
Krista Flemming: I guess if you could give me an example of what those active amenities that
you're talking about.
Franks: Well we'd be looking at a neighborhood of 540 units, although it's a mixed housing
development, it's going to be a neighborhood in and of itself. And if you were to visit some of
the neighborhood parks in our community here you get a sense for the type of active recreation
equipment that goes into the neighborhoods so. Playgrounds.
Hoffman: Play fields.
Franks: Basketball court.
Krista Flemming: I guess what I'm trying to get a distinction between what we are kind of
looking at right now, if that's the extent, or if it's something that's a little bit less formal. More
you can go out and just have a touch football game or you can have your own little soccer game.
You know it's not necessarily an actual, you know it's just an open space. Field of space or, and
then also have a jungle gym for kids to play on and swings and that type of thing.
Franks: Our typical neighborhood park combines both of those types of facilities together in the
neighborhood park so space to play, open green space and then also equipment. Playground
equipment. Play field equipment.
Krista Flemming: Has the Park and Rec Board, or the City for that matter had a preference on
either private or public facilities? One or the other. I know that if we would have private
facilities it would be maintained by a homeowners association. That type of thing. And I guess
as long as the city's maintaining it, we don't have a definite preference that way. So is there a
policy that you guys have followed?
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Franks: My personal philosophy, and we'll get different opinions as we work as a body and as a
commission, is that the amenity exists for the residents. And it exists in an appropriate fashion.
How's that for a nice, vague and general answer...
Krista Flemming: Well it basically means we need to either the city or the developer needs to
provide something that's adequate for the area and as long as that's the case, there isn't really a
preference as long as what's provided is nice.
Franks: And I'm not directly aware of the formulas...but even for play gym equipment in the
playground there's formulas for like the number of children and the size of the equipment.
Krista Flemming: And I'm sure staff`will be reviewing this along the way and giving us even
more direction on it too.
Hoffman: The location is also very important. The location that you have there are very nice for
visual things type amenities. For gathering points. They would not be good selections for a
gathering point. These associations would like to probably get together for a summer gathering
and it would be nice to have a large green space with a shelter to get together for their association
summer picnic, and one of those two locations would not be desirable for that so people.., larger
green space. It's a significant population that's going to go here and in general if we were
looking at a public park we would be looking at probably 5 acres of property out of there. If you
do a private amenity you probably can do that on less acres than that so it might be to your benefit
as you start to study this, to look at a private amenity...but we still want it to be sufficient to
allow for.., open space in what will be a fairly high density neighborhood so people can get out
and walk around and...
Franks: The other last comment that I would have is, you have the two areas set aside as part of
the overlay district. I know some of the larger, the high density public developments have
attempted to, at least through the use of view sheds out there. Putting in the units to create more
of a contiguous feel for the separated green space areas and so here we have rows and housing
kind of breaking out the upper and lower lands that are set aside instead of creating a corridor that
connects the two.
Krista Flemming: I understand what you're saying. Having a more...tries to blend both of them
together.
Franks: Right. And what that also gives the sense that this area is much larger than two
separated green space areas you actually connect them.
Krista Flemming: One of the features with this property, and I understand exactly where you're
coming from in trying to keep some type of green space connection through here. These areas,
when we walk the site, even though it looks really flat, it really isn't.
Hoffman: You can't see one from the other.
Krista Flemming: No, and I mean from the aerials and the topography we looked at, it was so
different from actually walking out there and you get here and it's just, it just drops off~ It's so
drastic so these areas are very defined and we'll just have to take a look at how we kind of try to
work with our development to see what we can do to even, if nothing else, we can't get
something to go all the way across to blend into it somehow. Maybe your neighborhood park
areas. We'll need to take a look at that.
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Hoffman: Yeah, your last comment about, if there is a neighborhood amenity, having this
overlook that north area would be very nice. So then you get the feeling as you start in here in
this little carved out area and then look out over the top of these trees so that's a nice concept.
These two are so far separated that it may be difficult to make that connection in this... Any
information that you have on the property that's in the center... ?
Krista Flemming: This one right here? No. At the neighborhood meeting they did attend and
they seemed to be quite content living there and although we are attempting to try to talk to all the
neighbors as well as many other developers. We have been attempting to talk to them and at this
point they haven't been too interested but it would be, we feel, it would be in their best interest to
not get developed around. To have something that would be more contiguous but it's ultimately
up to them. We are continuing to inform them of what's happening so they know that this
development will go around them, although this area will be preserved so it will probably seem
larger but for their property values it's kind of comes down to what they value the most.
Happe: Appreciate you coming in and getting a jump on this. I think it's going to make us, it's
going to trigger us to think about Todd, maybe not only the development that they're working on
but as Krista said, tying into some of those other areas too. Some of the things that we can take a
look at are, if there are some ideal locations for maybe a larger community park to go in and tie
everything together. I just appreciate your thought process and getting us thinking along those
lines. Keeping in mind too that as you earmark those, a couple possible locations, that we'll get,
you mentioned that that may be draw for some of those other areas that are yet to be developed
and just as long as we remind ourselves that the basic guideline is that, that would have impact on
if they're within half a mile of those additional developments or those additional houses that go in
so, but I appreciate your time and I appreciate you getting a jump on this with us.
Spizale: Just for general information. What are the price ranges of the townhouses and
condominiums? Do they have any idea what they're going to cost?
Krista Flemming: Well at this point in time, which is 3 years out, we've identified some general
housing types as some back to back multiple family. Back to back product of a walkout, lookout.
Possibly a smaller, detached single family. Empty nester type product and right now we have
quite affordable products actually. We are building those products in Plymouth and Shakopee,
Lakeville and the base prices of those products are starting from $150 for some of the different
priced ones. $150 to $170 and then going up to whatever people choose for options. Over
$200,000 easily...bumped up and improved and we hope to still maintain somewhat of
affordability for 3 years from now and that's one of our goals with our company is to keep us
within that range, but we also realize that some of the cities like to see some architecture spruced
up and really take a look at some more of the amenities and that type of thing which brings the
cost up a little bit. So we try to provide, especially in an area this large, provide variety of
housing ranges so people can not only start off with one place but they maybe can move up to
another area or you get a mixture of income levels and that type of thing within an entire
neighborhood.
Spizale: Okay, thank you. That's all I've got.
Franks: Paula?
Atkins: No, that's what I was going to ask. What Jack just did.
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Franks: Any other comments or questions from commissioners? Well I also appreciate you
coming down at this stage in the game to let us provide you with some of our feedback initially
and it's a beautiful piece of property and I think we're all going to be excited to see what you're
able to make of it. So we'll probably be seeing you again...
Krista Flemming: You probably will.
Franks: ...look forward to doing that. Todd, is there anything else from you?
Hoffman: No.
Franks: Thank you.
RECREATION PROGRAMS: 2002 4m OF dULY CELEBRATION EVALUATION.
Hoen: Thank you Chair Franks and the commission. First of all I'd like to thank you all for
volunteering. Helping with our events. I hope you all came away with a positive experience.
Just going to move down the line and kind of recap the events. Start off with the kiddie parade.
We had approximately 400 to 500 kids participate in this event. Each year it keeps growing. It's
amazing how many kids we get out for this. Kellie Makela is our playground direct, director of
the playground staff`and organized...did a great job with that. We got some assistance from the
Chan Fire Department and the Carver County SherifFs Department. Make sure that we had a
safe route for all the kids and parents that were involved. The trade fair, the Chanhassen
Chamber of Commerce had 39 participants this year.
Atkins: Is that down? It seemed smaller this year.
Hoen: For the trade fair?
Atkins: Yes.
Hoen: I believe last year they had 37 or 38 so it was right in line.
Atkins: Maybe it was just put together more conveniently.
Hoen: Spread°utalittlebitm°re'"thisyears°definitelyal°tm°rer°°m' Theyhad39
participants this year and they did a great job...worked out great having their own tent. Kaptain
Kirby train rides once again was very popular. Lines for the Kaptain Kirby train rides once again
this year so it's a very popular attraction for the kids. Senior center open house. From what I've
heard that went over very well as well. Face painting was once again popular. The city retains
20 percent of the total gross incomes that they receive from that. Next to carnival games. Once
again they were a huge hit this year. The playground staff brought some volunteers to help
organize and run those games. They did a good job with that. Medicine Show, kind of a fun
group. Kind of walks around and gets the crowd involved. The crowd definitely enjoys seeing
them. Water wars once again was extremely busy on July 3rd. We may even want to look at
possibly getting... 4th of July down at Lake Ann, we weren't quite as busy for some reason. Not
sure what that was. Typically they re just as busy on the 4 of July as they are on the 3rd of
July... We walk away with 15 percent of the total of their two day sales. Speedway racing. Very
popular attraction as well. Lines for that, and for that we also get 15 percent of their total sales.
Food and beer gardens. Overall the food vendors had a very successful night and we did actually
look at adding some additional food vendors last year. Or next year, as you all saw the lines were
15
Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
quite long. Some of the food vendors we do have some extra room for expansion for food
vendors for next year so. The more reports I've gotten from the vendors they enjoy our events.
Some of them ask that they be invited back for next year.., or any other events going on in the
city throughout...participate in so it sounds like they were all happy with the event. Krush, which
is a local band that warmed up and played before CBO did a great job. This year for the first year
they were on the, they got to use the main stage. They just ate that up. They thought that was
great so...
Atkins: I heard comments from some people, residents of Chan who are my parents age, who
like to hang around up there for several hours on that evening and they thought that Krush was
way too loud and they could not carry on a conversation. And I love Krush. I mean they're kid's
friends and I think they're great but they're really, they really were loud and they played for a
long time and some people go up there to have dinner and sit around and they don't stay for
Casablanca. I remember when Krush played outside last year maybe and that wasn't very
pleasant for them I know. It was hot and they had no shade so it is nice that they can use the main
stage but maybe they should play a little earlier and maybe shorten it up a little bit.
Stolar: I think one of the other things was, you couldn't sit in the shade unless you were in the
tent...If there was another tent, then you could sit next to them and not have the direct sound on
you ....it's not just, with our little kids we couldn't go in the tent because it was too loud for
them.
Atkins: Really loud, and I know the teens enjoy it but it's hard on other people so that's
something to consider.
Hoen: Appreciate the input. And this year they actually got to use the staging for free,
complimentary with Festival Sound Lighting agreed to let the boys use the staging for free so
there was no additional cost for that. If we want to look at that again next year, there would be
some fees involved with that so we'll take a look at that for next year. Tae Kwon Do demo. Jeff
Engel and his staff`provided our audience with an entertaining demonstration. It's a great
opportunity for the city to promote our Tae Kwon Do program that we have out at the Rec
Center. Jeff`is the main instructor...for the Tae Kwon Do programs that we have out there. Pony
rides, once again very popular. Lines for that as well .... growing we may have to possibly look
at getting a second pony ring for that next year so. The basketball free throw shooting contest
once again was very popular. We had more than 40 participants in that. We gave away trophies
and basketballs to the winners in 5 different age groups. The playground staff`ran and organized
that. Did a great job with that. Chalk It Up contest was very successful. We had about 50-55
participants in that. It was kind of neat walking around and seeing some of the designs that
people came up with. Did a really good job. And two categories for that. Most creative and
most difficult. SusanMarek...thejudgeofthat. Shedoesagoodjobofthat. Last but not least
on the 3rd of July is the street dance with CBO... great performance. Everybody really enjoys the
show that they put on. Move onto the 4th of July.
Franks: Have you booked them for next year?
Hoen: I have not yet.
Hoffman: They want to come back...
Hoen: CBO plays at other places and they don't have a tent set up for them. They just really
appreciate the safety ofatent so... Moving onto July4th. Starting out withthe adult fishing
16
Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
contest. We had 44 participants this year. Entry fee for that was $10 which includes the
participant going away with a door prize. I would definitely recommend holding the fishing
contest again next year. It gives the adult population something to participate in. Kids fishing
contest. We had a total of 75 kids participate in the festival this year, which is down a little bit
from last year. All kids received a grab bag with fishing items. Also gave away trophies and
other door prizes to the winners of largest fish, longest fish, smallest fish in two different age
categories. Sand sculpture contest was amazing some of these, how creative some of these
people are. Sculptures were amazing. The contest was run and judged by Kellie Makela and the
rest of the playground staff~ They did a good job judging those. It's a fun activity to add to the
celebration and I would recommend holding it again next year. Treasure hunt. An adult found
the medallion at approximately 11:30 after the second clue was given. I'm not sure how they
found it so quickly but, it's an easy event so.
Stolar: Has there been an investigation?
Hoen: We may have to... Gina Carlson from our office.., she does a great job with that so she
does a really nice job. Hula hoop and limbo contest. With that we really had a difficult time
getting people to participate in it. I think by that time of day people are kind ofjust hanging out
on the beach. They don't want to get up and hula hoop and whatever so we really had a tough
time finding people. Going up and down the beach...trying to get people to participate and we
just didn't have any success with that so we ended up a lot of times going with just a couple
people or have the playground leaders.., so that may be an event we want to look at next year if
we want to hold it or not. Fireworks. Once again Melrose Pyrotechnics did our show for us. Did
a wonderful job. My recommendation would be that we invite them back again for next year.
Are there any questions that the commission has at this time?
Franks: Thanks Corey. Let's just open it up for comments. Jack, do you want to start?
Spizale: Ah let's see. I think I went to quite a few of these different things that you had and I
enjoyed everything that was there. I agree with you. I think I brought it up before that we do
need more food vendors. I think we're aware of that. I think that's a good recommendation. I
thought the fireworks were fantastic, as always. Very, very good. Just one question. What does
this cost us to put on and what do we make? Do we make anything on it or, I know we've got
different percentages of different things. Is that totaled yet, or do we know those figures?
Hoen: It's not totaled yet but a lot of our expenses are coming through our sponsorship funds that
we get from different sponsors throughout the city so, at this point I don't know exactly what are
breaking point is.
Spizale: So it's pretty close to a break even. Okay. The only other thing I had was on the t-
shirts. It seems to be a hard sell. Maybe we give some more thought to showing them better or
doing something. I don't think we're selling very many t-shirts that I could see, and maybe we
should give some thought to some ideas of promoting them. I mean it's a little bit hard to sell
them, kind of sitting folded and flat. Maybe next year, I'd volunteer to help you display them.
How's that? Other than that I enjoyed it. I thought you guys did a fantastic job. Lot of fun.
Hoffman: T-shirt sales have gone a whole different direction with the involvement of the
Chamber of this year and so we relinquished some of the control over that and they I
believe.., did not be as successful as they had hoped so they're going to be a whole lot of
discussion between now and next year.
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Spizale: That's all I have.
Happe: Corey, did you have an overall attendance? Was it up? Was it down? Do we know? Do
we track it?
Hoen: 3rd of July I'd say definitely up. I would say somewhere between 3,000-4,000 people for
the 3rd of July. 4th of July, probably right around average I guess.
Happe: Okay. Just one comment. It was nice, or at least I haven't heard of any negative
feedback from loosing the space where the new library is going and locating to the back. I really
appreciate the Park and Rec. I saw all the clean-up that went into the efforts, when was that? The
night of the 3rd after the concerts. Your team really did an excellent job getting that place back in
ship shape again. One of the questions that I was asked multiple times as I was working on the
prize board was the proceeds that were being raised from those tickets. I assumed that they were
going to help offset some of the costs that the city had to put on the event, but maybe if there was
even a little sign that just said proceeds from this are going to X, it would give people a little bit
more understanding of what we're doing with that. And then I know that as we take a look at
what's happening next year, there's been some concept of maybe you being able to use the tent
and facilities when Todd? Later on the 4th for the fireworks.
Hoffman: The 4th. After the parade.
Happe: After the parade and before the fireworks and I think that would be fun to explore some
great ways to keep that...activity happening. And I guess my only caution in that regard is, I
wouldn't necessarily be a big fan of that including an expansion of the beer sales, just to keep the
focus on the kids and the fun family excitement of that time so, those are my thoughts.
Stolar: Just a couple of quick comments. Corey, I think you did a great job and I agree with
Dave's comments. You have to clean up afterwards. You should be commended for that and
your team and whoever else participated in that. I think that's wonderful. It was a great event my
first year attending it and it was excellent. I made one comment about a little bit more shade. It
was a little difficult with the kids during the early afternoon part, and maybe even shade the other
side of the people standing in the lines for all of the free games and just a place to sit out there
closer to their kids when they're doing that. More games are fun. This year, we used to do
events like this a long time ago and we had a dunking tent, and I tell you, there's nothing better. I
did it at college. There was nothing better than getting the college administrators to sit in the
dunking tents, former vice president wore his suit and he auctioned o12; all this for charity. We
auctioned off the first ball to throw while he was in his suit, but something like that might be a
fun thing to get city officials involved. Get Todd in there. Get volunteers to go in.
Hoffman: We've had them before. The biggest issue is liability.
Stolar: Liability, yeah.
Hoffman: Yeah, so we've had them.
Stolar: Those are fun though. I would sit in it... And then from the food perspective. We did
walk around a little bit and we weren't all the way over by the street by Byerly's, but it didn't
look like it was as much a dinner type for a kid. I think later on I found there was a hot dog thing
there. I was looking at tacos and all that when you start.., wider variety but it was a wonderful
event. Didn't make it to the 4th because we were all fired out from the 3rd.
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Kelly: I thought it was a lot of fun. The only comment I heard from people was about the
parade. The parade was really good when...and I think I may have brought this up last time. Has
anybody...maybe having an early parade and then maybe eliminating some of the events. Maybe
the fishing contest which is, you can have it not maybe the day. You may get more attendance
because then people... 4th of July parties in the aflemoon...
Hoffman: The decision on the time was based on the Delano parade and bringing the Waconia
band from the Delano parade. That's the sole decision on why this parade is at 2:30.
Kelly: For the band.
Hoffman: So if you want to cut out the Waconia marching band, you can do that.
Kelly: Does Chaska have a band?
Hoffman: No.
Kelly: It's just a comment that people have said. By then it's getting hot.
Hoffman: It was hot and it's been a problem for that parade in at least one of the past years. The
parade is an independent function of the parade committee and so we can talk with them about
that and, but they're the deciding factor in when it takes place.
Kelly: That's it.
Franks: Thanks. Amy.
O'Shea: Again I want to reiterate the, how much everyone that I talked to appreciated the work
that went into the parade. I think it's phenomenal to pull something off like that. To the public
there were no glitches. I'm sure...the people that were participating weren't aware of them so,
but huge thanks. It's just a phenomenal thing. I think, you know to cut down, if there's any way
to cut down on the lines. If you can add more games, a few more rides. Expand the type of
things you do. I think they're so well received so looking at that is one of your suggestions
already. The only other thing, could you pass on, some of the comments I heard about the parade
which could be passed onto the committee. It seemed just so political .... of people running for
office that you know, people were sort of joking about it was a political parade. They'd love to
see more bands. I don't know how easy that is or easy to do, and a bunch of people, and they
don't even ride Harley's, I guess in the past you've had Harley riders. So you can, I don't know,
but they loved that because...is the comments I heard about the parade so other than that,
everybody who attended the 3rd and the 4th really didn't have any negative feedback. Positive and
if there's a way to cut down on lines and expand, but that's, people just love the 3rd and 4th so,
thanks from everyone. That's all I have.
Atkins: It was another good time this year. I had fun working. I had fun selling shirts. When
they went down to 5 bucks, I sold a ton of them. Talked to lots of people and it was very
successful I thought. And you heard my comments already. I spoke out of turn as to...about the
Krush band, but I really think next year doing that band thing that Joe Scott was talking about
really should be considered. I think it'd be a lot of fun. Yeah, on the 4th. Right after the parade.
And that's all for me.
Kelly: Were there name tags out there for people that were volunteering?
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Stolar: ... especially like we were doing the raffle, and it said maybe Park and Rec Commission
to continue with the tent...
Happe: Saw a bunch ofpeople that said they were Jan Lash. Did we donate the space for the
booth for the...family for the Miracles for Mitch tent that was up? That was really neat.
Hoffman: Amy, responding to your comments. The parade, that committee works very hard.
They're a small committee and what their response is going to be is that this thing is it comes to
us... so if your neighbors want these things, they have to inspire the people in this community to
bring them out in the parade. The parade committee, more bands. They're paying these bands to
come to town and so if you think of a community parade, a community parade is a community
parade because of all the people that are involved in these things in town and they get them
forward and so they have very little control over what the outcome is. They take what they can
get because that's what they're looking for. And the food lines and the game lines. We always
try to get more, but again it's difficult. It's a community event and we have very few
organizations that want to participate because of scheduling and it's the 4th of July and so we end
up hiring out these activities. These people want to make money and if they don't think that
they're going to have a line and they're going to do business, then they don't want to show up. If
they show up and the lines are too short and there's too many people, then they say...next year so
it's a very fine line between servicing the people and having these vendors make money. Most of
these people are doing it as a for profit, and there are some, Boy Scouts and who else was there?
Girl Scouts and the Chamber did the ice cream sale, and so we need to cough up as a community,
as a commission those people who would help out the festival. Get out there. Talk it up. Tell
the, all the organizations in town that let's be a part of it. We've always advocated for that. The
Rotary. The Lions made a mistake long ago when they split the beer and food sales and the Lions
took the food and the Rotary took the beer so. The Rotary is very happy with the beer sales and
so they do that and the food is, you know, it's now changed and evolved and now it's these
private vendors and the Cub Scouts and those people so it's a real difficult coordination. I told
Corey that he did a bang up job because this thing, it was the most successful 4th of July that I've
ever experienced in the time that I've been here, and there's a letter of commendation in your
packet, but there's 25 others that are not in there and you'll see the next time around. I just think
our staff did a wonderful job. The commission, you were all there and you're all doing your part
to make this a community celebration and that's why the people respond. It truly is the biggest
night in Chanhassen and we just need to work together to continue to boost that participation
and...
Franks: I would agree too. Of all the celebrations that I've attended, I thought this was the most
successful. I love showing off`City Center Park. An event like this, it just felt great. All the
planning that went into that park and to use it, the whole community there. Just perfect. A
couple of comments for you from my perspective. One, is to look at the hours that the trade fair
tent is open and the kiddie parade concludes. So what happens is the parents are all getting done
with the kid parade and want to get to the trade fair, and it's closing up. So even shifting one
event or the other in some direction I think would be really helpful because there were a lot of
frustrated stroller pushers.
Hoen: Is the schedule that, isn't there time for those people to get into that?
Franks: Right at the end.
Hoffman: It's a half hour.
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Franks: But I know like most of our stuffwas gone already by then and it just, some of the
vendors were packing up and I heard a number of comments that hey, you know. We were at the
kiddie parade and everything's shut down.
Hoffman: Good suggestion.
Franks: The other thing was, the economy of scale here. Exactly what you're talking about,
about finding that balance between the vendors being satisfied and the customers being satisfied.
And I think we need to keep working on that. My personal feeling was that, I heard comments
about the food lines being long, but they seemed to move unlike other years so they were long
lines but things were moving.
Hoffman: We've had it twice...
Franks: Yeah, and so from my perspective I thought the food issue was okay. We should look at
bringing more people in. I agree about easier access. Child friendly food. Stuff`you can get for
your kids quickly. If we can work on that. But the thing about the lines that looked problematic
to me were the kids games, pony rides, Kaptain Kirby because those poor kids were standing out
there in that sun and I saw parents like come on. You know daddy will stand in line for you and
like no, not going to have it. We need to for sure, if we're going to have pony rides, you've got
to have 2 rings going. I mean we almost have to do these kinds of things for the kids. Like the
games, you could double each game I think. The problem is finding the staff` I imagine.
Hoffman: Finding the people to do it.
Franks: That's what I mean. Finding the people to do it.
Hoffman: And we also, we can study the economics. Right now we provide them for free. If we
do not pay them, an individual needs to pay $4.00 to get your kid on that horse, the lines are
going to go down and so that's a study of how do you present these events to the population.
Kelly: Kaptain Kirby, Iknow that line...that line went very quickly.
Happe: 4 bucks a pony ride?
Hoffman: Well if we brought it back and said you know, what do you want to charge kids to...
Franks: ...rides were just great. That was cool. Had a lot of positive comments about that.
Another thing. Can kids register for the fishing contest on the 4th?
Hoen: Kids, yes.
Franks: Okay. Now one thing that we might want to do is that Park and Rec has a table in the
trade fair tent, is considering offering registration for kids, for the fishing contest there at the
table. And maybe putting a sign up, and then I don't know. Adults were already supposed to
have been registered but just really for the kids because then we've got people coming through
there seeing that. You know they thought they were...events and whoa, kids fishing contest.
Where can I sign up? I agree with Paula about Krush being kind of loud. This is not a teen event.
This is a whole family event. I think it's great that they're there playing and if you can sell them
on if they come back, tum the volume down a little bit and cutting their sets a little shorter.
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
They'll still get the same exposure. Six. The hula hoop contest. That's always been hard to get
people to participate. It's a little bit tough.
Hoffman: In the olden days there was a crowd at the beach and that crowd did everything. The
park activities have grown and it's just, it's a whole different complex of group down there that's
just not interested in that.
Franks: And I agree about stopping tuming on Audubon after the fireworks. Make them go to
Powers and Galpin.
Hoffman: 25 minutes the park was empty.
Franks: You know that was just great. And the signs are looking a little tired. They do the job
but they've just been out in the weather. I don't know if you can spruce them up or we need new
ones.
Hoffman: We talked about that.
Franks: Oh you did, okay. Great. And the other thing Todd I'm wondering if it can be put
together to the park and rec staff as well as the maintenance staff from the commission is our
thanksforjustafantasticjobwelldone... Don't give up. There's a vendor outthere.
Hoffman: We're going to have to take some...
Franks: I don't know, we're going to do it.
Hoffman: I'll say road trips to Kansas. Let's go... Wherever the carni's are, we're going to see
them. We actually need to book them for 2004.
Franks: I imagine, but you know if we're going to do it, at least getting on a list. My
understanding is there's not a lot of availability. They're all pretty well booked up but there's got
to be some kind of list you get on so when your turn's up, at least you have a shot.
Hoffman: The ones that nobody wants are available.
Franks: Great. Anything else?
SELF SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: FALL ADULT SOFTBALL.
Franks: Alright, let's move onto a nice, quick report on the self supporting programs, fall adult
softball. And I can guarantee you Corey that we've all read your very thorough memo.
Hoffman: Jerry.
Franks: Jerry's memo.
Hoen: Chanhassen once again is going to be oflkring men's softball league at Lake Ann Park.
The league will run for 6 weeks on Thursdays starting August 15. The league will play double
headers. Each night they'll play a double header. Games will be a 55 minute time limit. The
team with the best overall record will receive a fall state tournament berth. Fall league kind of
oflkrs a more relaxed atmosphere I guess than the summer. It's a little bit more, not quite as
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
competitive I guess as the summer league so and Jerry's already receiving phone calls in teams
who are interested in playing this fall.
Franks: It's great to see that there's continued interest. Any commission members with
comments on the adult fall softball. Questions? E-mail them to Corey, or I mean Jerry. Sorry
Jerry. Alright. Thank you. Let's move on to added number 6 under reports will be a discussion
of points to go over with the joint commission/council meeting. Todd, can we have the date for
that meeting again please.
Hoffman: September 30th.
Franks: Do we have a time yet?
Hoffman: I believe it's 8:00 or 9:00.
Franks: I'd just like to open it up and hear from commissioners about some of the things that
you'd like to discuss with the council. These meetings have a tendency to go much faster than
you anticipate and the ability to get to all of the items that we want for discussion, it just usually
doesn't happen. The council will cover some items that they wish to discuss with us as well so I
can come up with four but I'd really like to make sure that we have somebody give our top couple
of items that we're all going to be able to converse about at the meeting so. One that comes to
my mind, again just to open the discussion is the recreation center.
Hoffman: We've been titling it the community center.., confusion with the existing facility.
Happe: Did we complete all of our tasks that were assigned to us for their request for
information? We've done everything that they've asked us to do for this item?
Hoffman: Right. The responses will all be distributed. Assembled and distributed back to the
City Council I believe it's on August 12th or 13th. And then they will take action from there. The
people that are responding are very enthusiastic. Talked to a variety of the people on the list
already. The medical providers doing health prevention, sports medicine, are about some of the
most enthusiastic. Those people would just love to be located with this facility and pay for it's
construction and pay... And Lifetime is very interested. They would like to have a tour with the
Park Commission and City Council of their recently opened Savage facility and they also have
one in Champlin. They're two communities that are pretty similar to us.
Franks: I think it'd be helpful for us, at least at that point...pass on our information obviously by
then is to talk about direction for the commission on this project. It's probably the biggest project
that we'll be looking at. And the second issue that comes to my mind is talking off`Glenn or
some of your comments at an earlier meeting about funding and priorities and placement versus
acquisition and development. Developing a system for replacing equipment and the thought that
the designation between park development fees and how those are used and where we place the
funding for current amenities we'll call them.
Happe: The Lake Ann road being a model of that discussion or?
Franks: Well I think that's one of the prime examples, yeah. That'd certainly be an example that
we could use to illustrate the point.
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Stolar: And question for Lake Ann. Do we want to have them consider that a city issue versus a
park issue? Then in addition, how we do maintenance on park facilities.
Franks: My feeling is that these are the types of, this type of philosophy or kind of thinking is
really, does not really come directly to the consciousness of the council yet because we've not
necessarily had to face these kinds of decisions and so those of us with some knowledge of the
area of parks and recreation, I really think it's important that we provide the service to the council
to bring this really to their attention so they can take a look at it. Off'er some direction. Those are
just my two. I'm sure there's a lot more.
Happe: Will we talk through the entire 5 year financial plan that we're putting together at that
time or?
Hoffman: Separate discussion. That will take going through it item by item. They'll be talking
about the general funding philosophies. This is the time for big picture. Brainstorm about, in
order to do your job you want to understand where they're at on issues and so it's not unfair to
ask a variety of questions just you know thumbs up, thumbs down. And council is going through
a financial planning process with Ehlers and Associates and so that will be, they can touch on that
during the funding priorities. It will take a year and go through that process. They're talking
much more about outcome based budgeting rather than the input. Do you have a comment Rod?
Franks: No. I'm going to force the issue here to my fellow commissioners anyway. What are
some of the other things that are on your mind?
Kelly: Talking about a high school. Is that something that would affect the commission?
Franks: That's great. And the idea of a cooperative effort in the lines of BluffCreek Elementary
or joining with the school district in the creation of a high school and park amenities.
Hoffman: That's a huge deal for us because as a staff`we've started to take the position that this
city will not build another Bandimere or Lake Ann Park in this community. The next athletic
field complex will be with the school and so, I think I have the count right. Eight schools in
District 112 in Chaska and two in Chanhassen, and so our citizens are paying a heavy price for
not having facilities, green space athletic facilities associated with those schools not being in this
city. And so in essence our tax money, our tax dollars are going to Chaska to support green space
in their communities which our residents do not have access to. That's something that we should
certainly all be very concerned about.
Franks: And I'll request, anyone else have any other questions to e-mail Todd or if you have, do
you have a current list of...
Hoffman: It's going around.
Franks: Now I have just a quick question on that. Does that violate any type of electronic open
meeting laws to have emails and comments listed in emails from commission members? That go
through the whole commission.
Hoffman: I can't pose questions...forward information. You can forward information to me.
You can forward information back to me I believe as long as it's approved and discussed at a
future meeting. You can't discuss items...
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
Franks: It is appropriate then that we have some...e-mail you for distribution to the rest of us.
Hoffman: Correct. As long as it's going on a future agenda.
Franks: Well I'm looking at for our meeting with the Council on the 30th. And then I believe
those can be presented at our August meeting. Let's do it that way then. Great. Alright, let's
move on then to commission member committee reports.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS.
Franks: Tom, I believe you're the only one of the commission members that's on a committee.
Anything to report about Dave Huff`man?
Kelly: September 14th. Start running. It will be a great event. The kids run now is on the... We
have great entertainment lined up for the race...face painter and all that. Goody bags.., so that's
the issue now. Is there a route at the finish line that is safe enough for the kids to run so that's
what we're tackling with right now. I'm a big proponent of the kids run but I just want
everybody...
Happe: Chairman Franks, are there additional committees that we should be attaching members
to?
Franks: Well I'm not aware. At one point we had the memorial park committee. Is that still in
operation? I'm not aware.
Hoffman: That's still in operation .... waiting for an appropriate time to bring that back and have
a discussion on it.
Franks: So at some point in the future there will be a Chanhassen Memorial Park committee that
will require representation from the commission.
Hoffman: ... committees, they're created as we move along in our evolution and then people go
out and volunteer for...
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
Franks: Again, the park picnic feedback forms. The picnic shelter feedback forms just where
they are every year? Fantastic facility. We need to get better control over the weather. Tell Jerry
to work on that. Last comments about the bees so far...
Hoffman: We have a new bee remedy which is a granular deterrent that goes in the bottom of the
garbage cans which appears to be working.
Franks: Any comments regarding the administrative packet?
Kelly: I guess I want to comment on the e-mails that have been flying around about the tennis
courts at the Roundhouse. It seems to me like everyone is for it except one person that wanted
they money spent on renovating the round house. Did you ever respond to people individually or,
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Park and Rec Commission July 23, 2002
I mean what...is there money available for a tennis court? Is it even a good thing to do with the
money that we do have available?
Hoffman: Any person that forwards an e-mail and I let them know that I'm passing that along to
the Park and Recreation Commission for your consideration and then you make.., budget
conversations about the 5 year CIP. It's been out there for 2 double tennis courts. That's been in
the master plan so it's just a matter of timing... Most people are not against spending money in
their neighborhood park... It's up to you to decide if it's a wise investment with the resources
that you have and if you want to make that recommendation to the City Council as part of the
budgeting process so. It was interesting. We talked about it. We said you know, we really
haven't heard about the tennis courts. The next day I received one phone call from an individual
that was, called specifically on tennis courts. They were aware that they were scheduled to go in
as part of the master plan. I shared with her the information...last night at the park board meeting
they had talked about this and we had commented that we hadn't heard anything.
Well... distributing information and so phone calls, letters, emails, they continue to come every
day. I took another phone call today...here we are. We want a tennis court. And by the way
what's up with the round house. That's the tag line on 75 percent of them.
Franks: I think it's appropriate that we consider, at least that kind of project as we finalize our 5
year CIP.
Hoffman: As far as the round house. Deanna is attempting to schedule another presentation with
the City Council. Bunkelman. Neighborhood coordinator for the round house project. She was
very excited. The son, the two sons of Ben Lane who is the individual that owned the property
back in the late 40's when this structure was installed, they were in town for a class reunion and
they stopped by the old property and they were very happy to see that the round house was still
standing. They say Deanna's sign on the door and so they contacted her and they live in Florida
now. They were small children, 8-10 years old when this thing went up and they remember
where it came from so they have this history that they're starting to develop around the round
house so she was very excited about that. I believe they've downsized the overall impact of the
project to attempt to make it a little bit more affordable and then finally talking to the City
Council about it.
Franks: Is there a date set for that yet?
Hoffman: No. Coming up probably in the next 30-45 days.
Franks: Okay, thank you Todd. Any other discussion on the administrative packet? Seeing
none, I'll entertain a motion to adjourn.
Spizale moved, Kelly seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
26