PRC 2002 03 26CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
MARCH 26, 2002
Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Mike Howe, Rod Franks, Tom Kelly and Jack Spizale
MEMBERS ABSENT: David Moes and Jay Karlovich
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Superintendent; Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent; and Susan Marek, Recreation Center Supervisor
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Todd Hoffman added discussion of two items under administrative
presentations, Boyer Lake Minnewashta Addition and Timberlake by Coil'man Development on Lake
Minnewashta.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Howe moved, Franks seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and
Recreation Commission meeting dated February 26, 2002 as presented. All voted in favor, except Lash
who abstained, and the motion carried.
2002 LAKE ANN BEACH LIFEGUARD & SWIMMING LESSON CONTRACT, MINNETONKA
COMMUNITY EDUCATION AND SERVICES.
Ruegemer: We review the annual Lake Ann beach contract on an annual basis. Typically about this time
of year. Minnetonka Community Education and Services has provided lifeguard services out at Lake Ann
for over 25 years. It goes back to the 70's. The contract always includes the basic cost for lifeguards,
administration, advisors, clerical support, mileage, cell phones and a list of other types of expenses. This
year, we're not in the consortium anymore as we have been in the past. What Minnetonka also did was
kind of go to every city. Actually John said that we were the last one to go this route but each city now has
their own contract, similar to what we've done in the past, but they don't kind of do the percentage basis
type of formula as they have in the past. So now that's down, that really is kind of the way we were kind
of doing it in the past as well but now it's really that way starting this point forward on that. We did make
some additional changes to the contract this year, and to the 2002 contract. There were some new
expenses implemented by Minnetonka into the contract this year since we did go through some rough
budget processes here this past fall. They now have to include some additional expenses such as office
rent, human resources support, technology, unemployment, background, a lot of those types of expenses
that we didn't have to pay for in the past are now included within this year's contract. So the contract
amount did increase roughly 22, or actually about $3,400. Actually was this year. That is a direct result
from the kind of the funding formula that the School District 276 and the funding that the Community
Education did receive from them so now they're more accountable for some expenses that they haven't
been in the past. Therefore, it's kind of a domino effect that we are then receiving I guess an increased
contract to help offset some of those expenses. In talking to John, this year just to give you an example,
they are now paying in their own school district facility they now have to pay for rent as well. Office
space. They have to pay for their own phones now. Even more so than they had to before. Technology.
There's a lot of expenses that seem unreasonable but that's kind of the way their system is set up. They
have to account for that, so basically in 2002, in the lifeguard services area and the fees for service part of
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
the Lake Ann Park operations, we had $2,400 budgeted for that. Really looking as we have in the past for
like a 3 to 4 percent, 3 to 5 percent increase, it went up roughly 13 percent from last year. So what that
leaves us is about $2,200 short at this point for the overall cost of the contract. I am very confident that
there's some careful care I guess going through the summer that we can make up that deficit no problem,
and were that be through looking at doing some different things with staff~ Cutting back some times or
some areas, and having maybe one person on staff or we could cut back on the fees for service as far as
some of the products that we receive throughout the summer. We can make up that gap. Do that as long as
our bottom line comes out at the end of summer we'll be fine with that and we can make that happen. So it
is staff's recommendation that the Park and Recreation Commission recommends to the City Council to
approve the 2002 lifeguard contract for Lake Ann. Lake Ann for the beach services provided by
Minnetonka Community Education and Services of $26,242.14.
Lash: Okay, does anyone have any questions? Or comments in general. Got anything Tom?
Kelly: No.
Lash: No? Jay?
Karlovich: No.
Lash: Are you not comfortable going to the City Council and asking, or are we not for an amendment to
increase this or do you think it's just going to be that easy to?
Ruegemer: Well I mean I guess I wasn't that concemed over the deficit.
Hoffman: The Lake Ann budget's about $68,000.
Ruegemer: Yeah. It went down from 75ish last year.
Hoffman: 75 to 68,000.
Ruegemer: It did decrease.
Lash: You can find the $2,200? Okay. Okay, is there a motion to approve this contract?
Howe: I'll do it. I move that we recommend that the City Council approve the 2002 Lifeguard Contract
for Lake Ann Beach for services provided by the Minnetonka Community Education and Services in the
amount of $26,242.14.
Lash: Is there a second to that?
Franks: Second.
Howe moved, Franks seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City
Council approve the 2002 Lifeguard Contract for Lake Ann Beach for services provided by the
Minnetonka Community Education and Services in the amount of $26,242.14. All voted in favor and
the motion carried unanimously.
REVIEW PROPOSED BUDGET, CITY CENTER COMMONS.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: The next item is, under the old business is the green space outside of the library yet to be named.
Hoff`man: Yet to be named.
Lash: So I'm not going to call it that.
Hoff`man: We don't know what it is.
Lash: Right.
Hoff`man: Thank you Chair Lash, members of the commission. Here's the, you've all seen this. What I'd
like to do is mn down the staff comments which were, we had a meeting last week, and that was the first
time staff`had met to talk about the conceptual plan. I'll mn through those for you so you can make some
quick notes and then allow Jan to go ahead and kind of complete the thought process on the initial
recommendation back to the City Council on this plan. We need to remember this is a conceptual master
plan and it's certainly starting to take shape that people can feel comfortable with but there are some things
that still are not that pleasing to a variety of folks. Regarding the project design and individual
components, there's quite a long list here. I'll quickly go through them, and the staff`people that met were
Dale Gregory, our Park Superintendent, Kate Aanenson, the Community Development Director, Dave
Dressier, our Building Maintenance Manager, Jill Sinclair, the Environmental Resource Specialist, Matt
Saam our Assistant City Engineer, and me. We believe the upright coniferous adjacent to the east parking
lot will not stand up to snowplowing operations. They will quickly become unsightly from physical salt
andsand. Salt damage at that location. When we mentioned that, you know theyjust didn't anticipate
that snow would be plowed there. Well there's really no other options. Delete the kiosk. One has been
taken out already from Phase I due to the belief that information displayed there will not be kept current,
and that would quickly lead to pedestrians to abandon them as a reliable information source. The group
embraced the inclusion of the arbor, but could not support the location currently proposed. The arbor's
proximity to the east parking lot neutralizes it's appeal as a comfortable seating area, and that was really
the original intent of the arbor was to have a place for seating. The idea of including tables and chairs with
umbrellas did not seem realistic. Those are the individual tables just that they have scattered throughout
the site. The group, we could not identify as a group a reliable operation's plan for this component, i.e.
who will gather them up each night, chain them together. Who will bring them out in the moming and
unlock them. We would recommend substituting permanent or semi-permanent tables and chairs. The
matching shapes theme that curves throughout the front of the park seemed appropriate. It was appealing.
Delete the stepping stone path from the grass area. We really didn't see, it kind of winds around. Delete
sidewalk between the mall and the West 78 Street sidewalk. We talked about what
the stepping stone th
would you do in maintenance when it snows, that needs to be plowed and so we recommend that you
accommodate, or substitute that for a paver sidewalk simple the rest of the mall area. There still remains
the desire to see a flat area with approximate dimensions of 40 by 60 incorporated into the plan similar to
allow for a tent to be put up and for activities to take place. General comment is that snow storage areas
must be accounted for in all parking lot locations. And then especially in that west parking lot, if you can
imagine when it snows, where do you push snow until you can come and pick it up and haul it away. If you
get a foot of snow in that area, it's really going to be a difficulty. Leave out up to 8 of the trees identified
in the plan in Phase I for an opportunity for community groups to dedicate those trees. We thought that
could be a way of saving some money, th
The holiday tree must be moved closer to West 78 Street. It's just
not visible enough at that location. Account for a minimum of 2 community gardens sized at
approximately 200 square feet and there's 2 groups already that would like to use those. The senior group
and the gardens group as a community project. Substitute metal edging with poly edger. Metal edging
that pulls out due to frost or maintenance operations damages our mowers. Remove the bike rack outside
of the existing city or the library. If you know where it is in that comer up there, and the piece of concrete.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Yep, right there. Take the bike rack out and then, that will allow for an additional parking stall. Right
there. And then there's 2 new bike racks over at the other library so we gain a parking stall there. Install
drinking fountains as a part of Phase I. They were taken out and that's as a means to limiting the number
of, you know I need a drink trip from the outside activities, the skate park, the skating. They come into
this building just to get drinks and it increases our maintenance substantially.
Lash: Do you have a suggested location for that?
Hoffman: I'm not sure where they have them identified. Two of them, they would both probably go up in
the main mall. One on the east and one on the west I would think. I don't know what they had in mind.
Lash: Which one do you consider the main mall? The one on the top or the bottom?
Hoffman: The top, yeah. That's going to receive by far the bulk of the activity. Introduce skating
resistant design in all aspects of the plan, focusing on railing and then seeding areas. Any reduction in the
number of stairways in the plan was seen as a positive. There's stairs down in this lower part. Just increase
maintenance, both summer and winter. We saw the elimination of the mulch in the weave area for Phase I
as a critical error. We also would like to see that hardwood chips are put in the place of shredded mulch.
Shredded mulch in these type of environments break down very rapidly and we just have to come right
back. Our experience has been that hardwood chips last probably 3 years or maybe longer and cut down on
the maintenance. They have the special maple tree up in the top ofthe plan on the right hand side. Sized
very large and it is our opinion that over sizing that tree would be a mistake. Transplanting overly large
stock results in severe stress and the tree really never catches up. It stunts out and so selection of a slightly
smaller tree, which would undergo a reduced stress levels allowing it to grow into it's new location would
be optimal. In the days after September 11th we saw the elimination of the flag pole as an anti-patriotic
and so we'd like to add that back in. There's a huge number under item 82, lime stone wall that consumes
a large amount of the budget and we'd like to reduce that where appropriate and so at 82, $85,000 and
there's limestone wall throughout the whole site but I think some of these could be eliminated.
Franks: You're talking about eliminating, not changing the building material?
Hoffman: Yeah, eliminating or changing the material. Just reducing that at some. I'm not sure that
changing those out to a masonry material is in our best interest. Perhaps it can be left out just leaving them
out altogether, or going to a cord wall at that location.
Franks: Cast concrete.
Hoffman: Yep. And last on this list is ensure that electrical outlets are included to accommodate
decoration of all these trees of light strings and that's currently not included. To the Christmas season.
And then regarding the Phase I components, this is generally the exercise that we're asking the commission
to go through this evening is that regarding paving services, that the interlocking pavers be retained.
Eliminate the stepping stones and then introduce that paver sidewalk down on the bottom to West 78th
Street. Landscaping, that hardwood mulch and weed bury be included. Substitute metal edging for poly.
Reduce the size of the special maple and delete up to 8 trees. Fumiture, relocate our eliminate the arbor
and include a flag pole. Include the drinking fountains and reduce limestone wall quantities. And lastly
on utilities, the 8 electrical outlets do not seem sufficient and then under signage, delete the kiosk or the
display panel.
Lash: Great. Those are great ideas. What I really appreciate is having the input from maintenance people
because you know in the end that's what's going to keep it looking nice. Make it last and in the last we all
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
are going to be paying for the maintenance so if you can use your experience to tell us long term
suggestions, you're the expert there. We need to listen to that so those were great ideas. Can we, Tom do
you want me to start with you?
Kelly: Sure. Where are we thinking about putting the fence? Or where are we thinking about...space for
the tent?
Hoffman: Either in here, or if need be, I think you could pitch a tent right out here in this hard surface and
so you wouldn't have to change a thing. You would just have to allow that to happen right at this location.
Kelly: Okay. The only nice thing about, I remember when they described those limestone walls. Those
curved walls. They kind of use that as similar to where maybe there's a kids group at the library and they
go out and take the kids out and they identified that as being a good area to take the kids out and have
story time, or whatever. I think that's what I thought the purpose of the walls were, but there are probably
other areas within the park that will be good for kind of outdoor activities sponsored by the library. I'm all
for getting rid of the arbor. Although it's a pretty thing. I don't know, is there concem about the snow
with the arbor too? Do you have the same concem that you had with the bushes that were right in front of
it?
Hoff`man: The bushes were put there to protect the arbor to make it feel more intimate without the bushes,
then the arbor's still wide open to the parking lot and these bushes are not going to be maintained with
snow and salt being pushed up against them. They're just going to look raggedy in a couple of years and
we'd pull them out.
Gregory: If the arbor gets pulled, could you use that for a flat area for example?
Hoffman: Might be okay. The arbor, everybody liked it in the start but originally there were over here at
this location and I think the library folks wanted them more of a quiet space in front of the windows from
the library so I believe that's why they were moved. And I don't know where else it would go to.
Kelly: I like the idea of having this space for tents because we've talked that maybe an ideal site for years
for maybe, Dave Huff`man Run starts or in 5 years and just allowing for a tent to have more of a community
activity probably is a really good thing. That's all.
Lash: Okay, thanks. Mike.
Howe: Well I think those are all very good ideas. This original design, you've got to kind of prioritize it
and need to have one, want to have, and I found even in $700,000 1 was going to come tonight and say you
know what are some things that if they say hey that's way too much, okay what are the priorities going to
be to be reduced to get it back to a more favorable number. Do you have an idea when you made the cuts
and the additions, what the number came to?
Hoffman: It was reduced.
Howe: Yeah, I bet it was to get rid of some of those big ticket items. I'm fine with the arbor being gone
and changing some of the walls and adding back in some of those other items and maybe cutting down the
size of the trees a bit. I think that's fine and I agree with Jan, the people who are actually working on this
and know a thing or two about how to maintain it and build it at a more realistic view are good sources. So
I'm fine with that.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: Okay. Anything else? Do you have anything specific?
Howe: No, not right now really.
Lash: Okay. Alright, I went over the list before I came in tonight and I didn't have any problems with any
of the suggestions you guys made with the walls for the kids to sit on. You know nice to have a place for
the kids to sit during story time. In my experience with children, they tend not to want to sit on a wall for a
very long time for a story. They like to climb on the wall and balance on the wall and jump olT of the wall,
and actually if you want to read a story to a bunch of little kids, if you had a flat space and told them they
had to sit down and you read the story and you were somewhat elevated, you might get their attention for 5
minutes but a wall would be a huge detractor if that's what the intent was, was for story hour with little
kids. So that'd be fine with me. I thought, I didn't even really know what it was. I thought it was more
for just people to sit on or to kind of break up the space but.
Hoffman: Yeah, that was the main focus.
Lash: Okay. I looked at again the flowers and made a note that I was hoping we could have someone step
forward who could do that so we could eliminate some of the cost of the flowers and if we got some groups
going to do that. I had a question and Dale, you could answer this one for me. With the mulch, I
wondered if that is something that we'd be able to do in-house with you guys putting the mulch down and
if we had, if we actually had a composting day where people could bring their brush and get it mulched,
could we use that mulch?
Gregory: The only thing is, you don't get really good mulch out of that.
Lash: Oh you don't.
Gregory: You need is to deliver hardwood chips. The stuff`that you'd talking about is going to be real
stringy. It isn't really good. We use it in our neighborhood parks and around the trees and stuff`there but I
don't think you're really going to want that screening material.
Lash: Okay. So it isn't anything you could do in-house?
Gregory: Well, I mean we'd end up buying all the material anyway.
Lash: And that's a major cost, okay. And then I had interest in pursuing, as a city, the two main
landscape, or nurseries in town to see if they'd like to be identified with making a charitable donation for
the community Christmas tree or holiday tree, and the maple tree with a plaque. I think it's going to be
very visible and it would be really good PR for them if we could get them to do that. And I put that next
to the flag pole too. I agree that I think we need the flag pole in there but I thought, possibly the Legion
might be a source for that with a nice little plaque at the bottom. Even though I know they might not be
receptive to making a donation right now. Right, but that can be filed away for down the road. And I,
when I look at the plan, while I love trees and I love flowers and I love flowering crabs and all of that, I
also know that in most cases when you get the landscape architects plans, while I like to think there could
never be too many trees and bushes, we all know that there can be in their original plans and then we end
up having to thin them out after a few years. And so I'd really like us to look at how many trees do we
really need to fit in there because you get too many in there, you're not going to get grass to grow. You're
going to have too much shade. So I think we could cut, I put down just as a rough estimate, I think we
could almost take out half of them and I might be over estimating but when I look at those little areas of
the flowering crabs you know, look how close they are together and it doesn't really allow for space for
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
growth and I think when you get too many it takes away from the beauty of a flowering crab if it's just
going to be too over whelming so I'd rather see some of those eliminated. Plus they're a maintenance, you
know when all the little things fall ofl; they're messy. Sosomeofthoselthinkcouldgo. But ifwe take
out the arbor, then we might want to look at strategically placing some trees up in that area. But when you
look at those rows of trees, I mean it's just solid tree and it's, you know is that what it's going to look like
in 20 years or is that what it's going to look like in 3 years? You know I don't know. I want to make sure
we don't over plant, yeah.
Hoffman: It's going to take a while.
Lash: Because I know they're pretty small but it's hard when you see a plan like that to know exactly the,
to scale how it's going to come out. So I agree that I think quite a few of the trees could probably be
eliminated there. And I had put down as the arbor, I wasn't that big of a fan to start with with that but
everybody else seemed to think it was important so we can skip over that. The bike racks, I didn't see a
need for even 12 bike racks. I think half of those would probably be enough to start and it if it looks like
they're always too full, then the next year put in a few more. You have to put the drinking fountain back
in. And the limestone walls, if we take some of that out, I think just the few things that I had down, I have
to put $5,000 back in but, you know I cut out $50,000 roughly just with those few changes. And I also was
wondering if we think, I don't know where Tim Erhart and his tree deal is right now. Is it something that
he might be interested in, if he's at a stage with his growth that he might be interested in having the city
come and dig up some of his things and transplant them, I don't know.
Hoffman: He only has pine trees.
Lash: We don't want any of those in there?
Hoffman: There'sjustoneinthere. One.
Lash: Don't we want anymore?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: Why?
Hoffman: They hide.
Franks: Muggers.
Hoffman: Muggers, thank you. It's a safety issue.
Franks: It's a safety issue.
Lash: As opposed to other trees?
Hoffman: Yeah, the canopy is high and then you can see through.
Lash: Well yeah, when the trunk's on this big around. Okay. I like pine trees but.
Hoffman: We could get the Christmas tree from him if nobody else bucks up so.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: I'd like to think Halla with the world's biggest tree spade.
Hoffman: Might bring the maple in.
Lash: Would be open to that idea. They're such good guys there so I'd like to see some of those outfits
take some ownership in this.
Hoff`man: We'll make that call.
Lash: I think the flag pole strategically timed would be.
Hoffman: Oh, they'd go for that. That's their deal.
Lash: So, those are my suggestions and I think what I'd like to do tonight before we close down the whole
thing, after you guys are done talking, I'd like to go through and cmnch numbers and just see where we're
at. If we're at a point where we're comfortable sending it onto City Council. Rod, what have you got?
Franks: Alright. Nice to hear those comments so it makes me feel like Rod's approach to park creation
based on home improvement experience is not to be so inaccurate. But the stepping stones are gone. I
don't know if you've ever walked on a wet stepping stone before but watch out. They've got to go. I had
the same thing. I thought maybe we could do something with the perennial flower budget on 21. I could
not believe putting down mulch without a weed barrier. That just seemed just absolutely crazy. And weed
barriers all the way. The guy who did our landscaping says that you might as well go with the poly edging
because the steel edging pulls out when the frost heaves so, and I'm assuming that poly edging is less
expensive. And if you have to replace it, I'm sure your staff`knows how to do that.
Gregory: We've basically replaced 90 percent of downtown already because of that same reason.
Lash: You've replaced steel with poly?
Gregory: Steel with poly.
Franks: The tree issue. I don't think as a body, even on that meeting, we liked where the holiday tree is
positioned and we kept bringing it back to that circle area right off`the comer. Personally that's where I'd
like to see it. I'm sure we can creatively trim the holiday tree in such a way as to make sure we have a
good view shed and maintain safety of the pedestrian public through the library commons .... piled up
there, absolutely right. It won't, the arbor will not work without the screening. It's just a waste. My next
thought on that one, since I don't know if you've been down to Centennial Lakes in Edina but they have
small arbors. They're probably about 8 to 10 feet with a hanging swing undemeath them and they're free
standing. I'm wondering if back to the original plan, along that, the north/south walkway between the
library, put in 2 or 3 of them spaced apart just to offset. I think that would still maintain the integrity of
the view from the library, but provide the same type of amenity that we're looking for up there.
Lash: A swing?
Franks: Yeah, they're like really heavy duty, steel cabled.
Hoff`man: Or bench.
Franks: What do they call them?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoffman: Well a swing or a bench. But an arbor.
Franks: They have both in Centennial Lakes. They're really, really nice. Very nice.
Hoffman: It'd make a nice addition. It wouldn't, for a lot less money you could get a lot more bang for
your buck putting 2 to 4 of those in the site.
Franks: What I like about the swing idea, although I'm sure the maintenance is a little higher on that, it
really provides that country kind of porch feel to our country little town so. The flag pole, are we talking
about an adaptive re-use of our current flag pole here or is that going to be history?
Hoffman: Flag pole is staying up here.
Lash: I think you have to.
Franks: This will stay up here?
Lash: You almost have to have one at your city hall. I mean that's.
Franks: Going down my list. The limestone seating units. The blocks. Is that something that, that's what
we're talking about here right? For $7,200. Is that, are we going to need that?
Hoffman: Well the.
Lash: Those are the things up along the tum. Those little square things, right?
Hoffman: They're all over.
Lash: And down in the comer?
Franks: They're more like a defined area as opposed to really providing seating. I can't imagine too many
people are going to sit right on the comer there on West 78th there.
Hoffman: Those are for traffic control.
Lash: That's to keep people from driving.
Franks: So are those the ones we're talking about here?
Hoffman: No. We're talking about all these.
Franks: Talking about all those?
Hoffman: The petals offofthe trees. Remember...
Franks: Oh no, these are the square ones aren't they?
Hoffman: Yep, these are the squares. Which item are you at?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Franks: I'm on number 74.
Lash: 2 by 2.
Hoffman: Yeah, you're right. Those are these.
Franks: Those are which ones?
Hoffman: Here and then.
Lash: Along there. But he did say those are in large part to keep cars offofthat.
Franks: Okay. I just wanted to know. Okay.
Hoffman: This matches this so you know you're at the same park.
Franks: Right.
Lash: In case you're confused.
Franks: Okay. A trash receptacle, that's reasonable. Limestone wall. It doesn't give the cost difference
in total if we do a cast in place. I'm imagining cast in place concrete. Do you have any idea what the cost
difference is?
Hoffman: If it's not on here, I do not.
Howe: Was that the wall right on the curve?
Franks: No. We're talking about the curvy walls in the...
Hoffman: Well unit cost, cast in place is twice as much.
Franks: Well is that what, per foot?
Hoffman: Square foot.
Franks: Well that's absurd. Alright.
Hoffman: Modular block is 30 bucks. Who would buy modular block for 30 when you get limestone for
55. Just reduce the amount and if we like it we'll add more later.
Franks: Right. And the watermain realigmnent I'm assuming is absolutely necessary for the construction
purposes. And then the kiosk display panel, got to go.
Howe: That was the thing in front of the library that was going to say open.
Hoffman: No, the kiosks are these, one here and one here.
Lash: Community post it.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Franks: Where's the monument sign?
Hoffman: We don't know how large it is but somewhere down here.
Franks: And we're talking a brick kind of thing or.
Hoffman: Stone.
Lash: That would say.
Franks: That would say?
Hoffman: The park's name.
Franks: Yeah, okay. That can come later too.
Lash: The City Square?
Franks: We don't know the name of the park yet.
Lash: Library Plaza.
Franks: Chair, would it be okay ifI approached the map too just to.
Lash: Oh, you bet. While he's doing that I want to ask a quick question. All of the trees that are of a
different.
Hoffman: Color?
Lash: Yeah. Are those existing trees or what's that's supposed to depict there?
Hoffman: No, those are trees that are going in but are included as a part of the library.
Lash: Oh, okay. And then are there any on the plan that are existing?
Gregory: Right here. There's actually 3 birch trees right in the center there the city will want to save.
Hoffman: That's a long shot. Those...can go back in. These probably stay here too as well. There's a
road here and a road here that will probably, these will stay and these will...
Lash: So those are already there? . . . can't work around them?
Hoffman: No.
Franks: Okay, is that the same...as these trees here?
Hoffman: Those all come out in the...
Franks: The same trees come out and go back in?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoffman: No. Trees come out. Are wrapped. I mean.
Franks: These trees are wrapped already?
Hoffman: Well they will be as part of the plan.
Franks: So there's no way to complete reconstruction of the hardscape area here without removing these
trees?
Hoffman: No.
Franks: Alright.
Hoffman: We've talked about that one.
Franks: Alright. And my assumption, my thought was after listening to the architect that, with the
stairways, that this is the ramp area here, correct?
Hoffman: Yes.
Franks: And that this would be the area that would be snow would have removed...and then this area we
wouldn't even bother with snow removal?
Hoffman: Correct.
Franks: Alright. But they're still talking about wanting to get rid ofthe steps. So what would the
proposal be to do that?
Hoffman: These steps over here could come out, and you would...just a berm and a lawn that comes out to
a berm and a lawn.
Franks: Alright. But these steps would still remain?
Hoffman: Those would need to stay, yeah.
Franks: But we have the~ w~u~d y~ujust maintain the retaining~ because these are retaining wa~~s here. So
this would just be a little piece of retaining wall that would.
Hoffman: Or just a grass hilltop.
Franks: Would it make any difference as far as maintenance of this area to remove like this kind of
triangle piece here? You know we're talking about having that area for larger activity and this would be a
prime spot for a lot of that activity to take place but then we have a lot of available area being covered up
by a piece of triangle of land. And I'm sure it will probably cost more money to fill this in with pavers
than it is to have some dirt or some trees in there but.
Hoffman: Not if you fill it in, if you gain much because of it's configuration. If you're going to pitch a
tent in there, a tent's got to fit in that rectangle which is currently existing.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Franks: Then we would allow it for people to be able to congregate without crowding up against trees and
wall. That's just my feeling if you're planning on doing... The other thing too about, I would like to see
some of these remain but I liked your idea Tom too about maintaining some of this space that's a little bit
greater area of open space. You maybe just go with the two seating walls instead so if we're giving up a
design theme, I don't think of the park, I don't think we can fix all of this without losing some of the
integrity of what we've got as unified design throughout the park. But maybe let's just take this one out
and then of course get rid of the stepping stones here.
Lash: Well not that I am a big fan of stepping stones, but I can see, I mean we're going to have a traffic
pattem of people cutting through there I think from, is that Market there?
Hoffman: Market.
Lash: From Market across. I mean people are going to cut through there.
Hoffman: They can walk right here.
Lash: Well they could but, well maybe.
Franks: Because the arbor won't be there.
Howe: With the arbor gone it may change it.
Lash: Yeah, that might encourage.
Howe: It may change it.
Franks: People are still going to cut through here. But I don't think we should put up something here...cut
through.
Lash: But we've leamed through experience that the traffic flow will dictate where we need to make
changes and if after a year or two we see the grass is all tom up right there, we just extend the pavers from
there down to this area.
Hoffman: We think the pavers should go there anyway because it will be used...allow for that use.
Franks: And then I'm...about moving short to the 4 little pieces of arbor along this area.
Lash: And again that's something that could go in later, could it not?
Hoffman: Could.
Lash: I mean it wouldn't have to be in Phase I, would it?
Howe: I'm very cool on the arbors personally.
Franks: Yeah, because you'll just have to add a pad undemeath them I guess.
Lash: Well I'm thinking if you want to put in some kind of seeding, your swing ideas or something like
that, go with something like that maybe first. That's less expensive and then if we notice that there are
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
people in line waiting for some place to sit then we go back and try and figure out how to add something
else in there that would fit. I think just benches would be adequate in a lot of places myself. Ones that are
tried and true and.
Hoffman: The one thing about, the plan is very deceiving because there can be no shade there for 10 years
and so when you get an arbor with a vine over the top of you in 2 or 3 years, that's the appeal to an arbor is
the shade. Because they're short tenn. That also adds an architectural element to the park because it's not
going to look anything like this. It's going to be lots of pavers, lots of stick trees, and so an arbor has some
presence where it actually says oh, there's something out there. It's going to look fairly barren for a
number of years.
Lash: Where did you have in mind the community gardens to go?
Hoff`man: Oh just any appropriate location. I think there's... Maybe these end caps. This area.
Franks: Well that's the other thing I was wondering too was all these omamental trees being...over there.
Would we want to consider reducing the number of trees to create more of a space to be used for other
things. Especially if you want to consider closing off`these areas of the pavers... I mean for that
community gardens or for the display of...
Lash: Where's the flag pole supposed to be?
Ruegemer: Somewhere along here.
Hoffman: It's up to them to, and I think the trees...
Howe: Right near there. Yeah, I agree with that.
Lash: And naturally someone's going to want to plant flowers under the flag pole. That happens all the
time. You done Rod?
Franks: Yep.
Lash: Well Jack.
Spizale: Yeah.
Lash: What do you think?
Spizale: Gee, you've covered so many things. I'm a big fan of the arbors and I never liked that spot
because it just seemed too far away and I really like your idea of the smaller arbors. And I also think a lot
of people that are going to use that park are going to want shade. And the idea of having a swing on one or
a bench undemeath, I think that'd be so neat. That'd be a great spot for the kids to gather around. I like
that idea. The other thing that I brought up a number of times that I never liked, the spot where they had
the Christmas tree I thought possibly, maybe as you entered the park. You've got that little circle thing
there. Right in the front. That would be blocking but if they were to scoop out to the right there a little bit
and do like a little half circle and have the tree in there, it'd give a lot of room to congregate and it
wouldn't be blocking the entrance to the park. I do have a question maybe for maintenance. What would
be a good barrier between the parking lot and the park? Is there anything that works tree wise?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Gregory: Are you talking about where the arbor is?
Spizale: Yeah. What would be a good thing to put there that gives some privacy to the park. Would it
have to be stepped way back?
Gregory: It would have to be stepped quite a ways back. Let's see...in that low area there.
Spizale: Possibly like where the arbor is right now?
Gregory: Right.
Spizale: And what type of thing would be a good barrier that would.
Hoffman: Just what they have there. Upright coniferous would be fine as long as it.
Gregory: As long as they're parked back so that you're not pushing the snow into them.
Spizale: Because I do think it's going to need some privacy so you're not looking at the parking lot. I
think that's important.
Lash: How about lilacs? Would lilacs make it?
Gregory: Lilacs would probably make it.
Lash: Do you have any maintenance problems with lilacs?
Gregory: Actually not too much because you can just let those grow...pretty much let them grow.
Hoffman: The architect would probably say that they're not as formal as this park setting would be. Lilacs
tend to get a little bushed out. I'm not sure that they would recommend them.
Spizale: I like the idea of the limestone used as much as we can because I think it's kind of a natural
product from the state and looks a little bit more homey, little bit more comfortable. Where we could use
it, I think it's a great thing to use. And I think everything else we've pretty well covered that I was going
to talk about but I think it's coming along. It just needs some tweaks. That's all I got.
Lash: Okay. Jerry brought us the calculator so, I'll be the. Okay.
Hoffman: The total minus, so start at the top and go, deduct right, hopefully.
Lash: Right. So we would need to keep in, are we looking in the far right colunm now? Phase I cost,
okay.
Hoffman: Yep.
Lash: We need to keep in the interlocking pavers, right? And if you want to, do you want to have as a
part of the initial, having that little area paved too?
Howe: The trail...the amount that that would be.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoffman: Probably inconsequential.
Lash: Okay, it's 8.50 a square foot so okay.
Franks: Can I just ask?
Lash: Yep.
Franks: This is maybe stepping back a little bit on the stepping stones but, how it was brought up to get rid
of those steps between the omamental trees. Little angles there. And that would also apply getting rid of
the pavers between the squares too I imagine. Is that something that we're interested in as an idea?
Lash: Eliminating the pavers between the?
Franks: Or adding the steps.
Howe: The ornamental trees there on the bottom?
Franks: Right.
Spizale: I think you need the steps for the grade, don't you?
Franks: No. We'd have the steps towards the top but not inbetween the rectangles where the ornamental
trees are. That's what you proposed, right Todd? Or that's was a staff`idea?
Hoff`man: We didn't really propose anything other than, if as they continue to tweak this design, don't add
more steps. The elimination of steps or staying where we're at is good.
Franks: But if you eliminate the steps would you be eliminating the, is the idea to eliminate the pavers
inbetween as well? That contiguous grass in a stepped configuration.
Hoff`man: That's what Damon talked about at one time, if the steps would come out. That was his idea.
Lash: And the steps are there because of the grade, is that correct?
Hoff`man: Yes.
Lash: Okay. So are there not steps on the main pathway? There's no steps there?
Hoff`man: Grading.
Lash: Oh it's just grading.
Franks: It's ramped so on the north side it's stepped. On the south is ramped.
Lash: Then how can you eliminate the steps?
Franks: Inbetween the, inbetween.
Howe: The purple trees...
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: Somebody needs to point it out to me.
Hoffman: ...make this all grass and then a little hill down...
Lash: Because there's steps in there. And there's no steps on the main path?
Franks: On the top there is.
Hoffman: No steps here.
Lash: No, I know that.
Hoffman: Steps right here and here.
Lash: And eliminate those or you have to keep those?
Hoffman: No, keep those.
Lash: You have to keep those, okay I get it now. Alright. Okay so we go down, we've got the pavers we
need to keep in. Stepping stones we're taking out. Okay. The concrete steps.
Hoffman: Stay.
Lash: The whole amount?
Franks: Well that's what I'm saying. If we eliminate the 4 sets of steps, if we eliminate 2 of them. That's
why I'm bringing it up. We're actually cutting costs on concrete steps.
Lash: In half.
Franks: Right. Well...
Howe: Would it take half of that number?
Franks: Well I mean if that's what we are, would recommend doing.
Howe: Alright, I'll use 4275 then for that.
Lash: Okay. Then.
Hoffman: Do you want me to take that out?
Lash: No, take half of it out.
Hoffman: Take half of it out.
Lash: Then if we cut the landscaping, the perennial flowers, is that something that we can bank on the
garden people to do for us?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoffman: No, you can bank on the annual flowers.
Lash: Okay. Perennials, is it something that we could do some but not all of them the first time through?
Or we put them all in at the first.
Franks: Put them all in.
HolTman: They already have cut it down.
Howe: We already cut. We cut a third.
Lash: Okay. Okay then, keep the irrigation, right?
Hoffman: Yes.
Lash: Mulch, we need the mulch with weed barrier, correct?
HolTman: So we're bringing that back.
Lash: And that's 5280. You're punching in. I'm just writing down.
Howe: I'm punching.
Lash: Alright. And then so we eliminate the shredded mulch without weed barrier.
Hoffman: Correct. And then actual planting soil.
Howe: Did we keep shredded wood weed barrier in there?
Lash: Right. So that's 5280.
Howe: Yeah, but with about the 506 beneath it, is that?
Lash: No. That's what we just took out.
Howe: That's gone, okay.
Lash: What's the planting soil tree/tree?
HolTman: That's soil for the trees. It has to be there.
Lash: Okay. Then we skip down to sod with 6 inches of topsoil. We have to keep that.
Howe: Seed and sod both.
Lash: No. Well the seed's gone. All we have left in there is sod. And then we have the steel edger. We
can take that and put in poly edger. Who's got a call on how much savings that would be?
Hoffman: It's right there.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Franks: It's right there. 14.5 times 1,800.
Lash: Okay. That would be 7,650.
Howe: Per pound?
Lash: Yes. Okay. How about the holiday tree? Keep the money in or hope that somebody will donate?
Howe: Donate.
Lash: Okay. So we're looking for a donation. Then we've got the upright coniferous. Is that the whole
row that are taken out by the parking lot?
Hoffman: Yep.
Lash: Okay, so that's out. Okay. Tree, the large deciduous, is that a city one? The city maple?
Hoffman: No, that's 30 of them.
Lash: Okay. So what if we, do you want to keep 30?
Spizale: Where are those at?
Howe: 38. We on...
Franks: Staff discussed taking out at least 8 trees, right?
Lash: Okay, so if they did that. They're 425 each so, so we can deduct 3,400 from that.
Howe: So what's it going to be?
Lash: 900.
Howe: It's 9,000.
Lash: 9,350.
Howe: 9,350 for trees.
Lash: Then the special maple. I say we.
Hoffman: Eliminate it.
Lash: Okay. And the omamental trees.
Franks: We're eliminating the cost of that but we're not eliminating the idea of the city tree correct?
Lash: No, right.
Howe: Weren't we going to thin back the omamentals?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: I would say to thin back on the omamentals. Yeah, but look up at the parking lot. You know
you've got the clump of 3. You've got the clump of 3. You're got the whole row of them there. I just
think that gets to be a little bit.
Gregory: How it is planted is not really the landscape plan so it's real difficult to see exactly where these
go.
Howe: They've got 67 deciduous omamental or small shades.
Lash: And that's not really, they don't really have 67 of them on there?
Howe: Well about 42 are the omamentals, I'm sorry.
Lash: Oh, okay. See I think you know, looking at the plan, if you start up at the top I think if you had 2 up
there and you had 1 at each comer of the parking lot and then you cut the clumps down there.
Howe: Cut it by half then.
Lash: Yeah, almost in halfI think you could still have a decent amount and some color in there in the
spring. You could put some lilacs in for some more color.
Howe: Can you give me a price?
Lash: Why don't you put $6,000 down.
Hoffman: Minus 6,000?
Lash: No. Change it to 6,000.
Franks: Cutting it in half?
Lash: Yes. And then, what are the deciduous small shade? Which ones are those supposed to be?
Hoffman: Those are all the lighter green in the interior of the plan. All the birch. In general the theme
here is maple, maple, maple, maple, then this is all birch. Maples... so these are all small shade right in
here.
Lash: Well if we're going to move some arbors over in that area and have some, I think I know I want trees
too but you're not going to be able to have maybe as much trees.
Franks: You know one of these things though we've always talked about is getting the trees in right away.
Lash: I know and I agree with that but I also have seen downtown be redone and stuff`pulled out because
either it died or it goes overgrown and it's too crowded and you couldn't see anything. You have to trim
them and I don't know. What do you think is a workable number Dale? I mean it could look nice but.
Gregory: Like I say without the actual landscape plan it's really tough to tell. On this plan you can't tell
where they've got trees. I mean they don't have, you do have all these trees, but they're not all on that
plan.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Howe: Let's cut it by half again. Let's say 12.
Gregory: Ideally we talked about that is if we could get the landscape plan and Jill and I, we want to sit
down and really look at where things are planted.
Lash: Even if we went with 15 of them, because they're, I mean they are smaller and they're going to stay
smaller so.
Hoffman: 4,500.
Howe: Add or is this subtracted? That's an add? Okay.
Lash: And then vines. The vines are there if we put the arbor in.
Spizale: Yeah if you did arbors, depends on how they did the arbor.
Howe: That's a small amount.
Spizale: You know some of them don't need.
Lash: So are we taking out the stone arbor, the $25,000? Or cut it in half.
Hoffman: You're going to need them to re-build them. You're going to need that amount of money.
Lash: That amount? Because we already cut it in half from the initial one. What are you doing?
Franks: I don't know, it's like it's attacking me down here.
Lash: You're hooking your foot on the cord. So for the 25,000 we really don't know what that's going to
amount to, do we?
Howe: We're back on the arbors now?
Lash: Yeah, because the original 50,000 was for that whole piece up on top. So if we wanted to break that
up and have just a couple smaller pieces, we're still going to be half, isn't it?
Spizale: Well at least because I think that, didn't that have some kind of a stone base to it? I mean they
could do a much simpler arbor, like you're talking.
Franks: We'd need to have a stone base.
Spizale: Right. Imeanyoujust...swingtypeofthing.
Hoffman: For 15,000 you could probably get all the arbors you wanted.
Spizale: I think that's good.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: Okay, and we're skipping the banner pole, right? Is that something that when you were talking
about up in that big area Todd, you think we need to have some kind of artwork, is that what you're
talking about to have some color up in there or what are you talking about?
Hoffman: Artwork will happen after the fact. People will buy it or adopt it or.
Lash: Okay, and I think the bike racks could be cut in half.
Hoffman: Well what they're talking about there is 6 loops. 12 means one loop. That's what they're
pricing out here. They're saying these bike racks are 2, 6 bikes... That's 1. That's 2. That's 3. That's 4.
That's 5. That's 6.
Lash: And each one holds 6?
Hoffman: Yeah. And then the other one just kind of...
Lash: So they're talking about 12 parking spots for bikes?
Hoffman: Yeah.
Lash: Oh that's, then we've got to keep that in. I can see where we could have 12 bikes up there.
Franks: So bike racks aren't included in the library plan?
Hoffman: No.
Franks: They're not in the library budget?
Hoffman: Well, approximately 250,000 of this will come out of the library budget, so they'll be paid for
by the library. As will much of this area. Currently there's only a $68,000 deduct. The plan which was
bid cost $68,000. City Manager Gerhardt is going to attempt to get a quarter million dollars to build this
area out of the library budget. The remaining money would come out of the city budget.
Franks: So where are the bike racks that we're talking about?
Hoffman: Right here.
Franks: But we're hoping that those will come out of the library budget?
Hoffman: Oh all of this.
Howe: We're going to keep 12 in?
Lash: Yep, we've got to keep the bike racks...city hall. You're going to want to locate one more up by
city hall, and then have one more down.
Hoffman: One here, one here.
Lash: No. Like up, yeah. Yeah, somewhere by city hall.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoffman: Yeah, in the comer of city hall.
Lash: Yeah, but where they're coming from.
Hoffman: They all come here.
Lash: So somewhere right around in that area and then have another one, I don't know. I don't know if
you want it right down in that area but then that's mnning a lot of water all over everywhere. Can you
hook into the irrigation for that? Same thing, or is that different water?
Gregory: No, you can't hook up to the irrigation.
Hoffman: There's plenty of water here.
Lash: Okay.
Howe: We're moving the whole watermain. We could give them everything they want.
Lash: Okay. Flag pole is in but I think we can get that donated, if we play our cards right.
Howe: Okay, so leave it off~
Lash: Yeah. And then the mechanical for the fountain, we're going to leave that in, right?
Franks: Absolutely.
Lash: The handrail, do we have to keep that in? We're not exactly sure where that's supposed to be.
Hoffman: That's all for the steps.
Howe: Won't you cut the steps, didn't we just cut the steps in half?
Hoffman: Probably.
Franks: Cut the handrail in half.
Lash: Well where was the handrail?
Franks: It was in the middle of the steps it looks like there's handrails.
Spizale: Think they have to have that done?
Franks: Yes.
Lash: I'm thinking they probably do. Okay.
Howe: What do we do on that?
Lash: Just leave it.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Howe: We're keeping it?
Lash: It's got to be in there.
Howe: Okay.
Lash: So planter curbing, that was out. Annuals are out. Hanging baskets are out. Sculpture is out.
Howe: Seating bench.
Lash: Seating bench. That was out.
Howe: Out?
Lash: Well it was out, I mean it's out now. What is that supposed to be?
Howe: Limestone.
Franks: Those are those squares.
Hoffman: 5 foot benches.
Howe: Item 74?
Lash: Item 73.
Howe: Okay.
Franks: They're not in.
Lash: No, I know. I didn't even know what they were.
Franks: Those are the curvy things that look like the helicopters from the oak tree falling down.
Lash: Okay seating unit, the limestone. That's $7,200. Are those those walls?
Howe: No.
Hoffman: Bollards.
Lash: Those are the, okay. And we have to keep those for traffic?
Franks: At $800 a piece?
Spizale: That seems a little spendy doesn't it?
Franks: Does that sound spendy? No.
Hoffman: Quarried right out of the quarry. Delivered here.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: Okay .... limestone wall. That's still $82,000. Now are those the ones on the hill that the kids are
going to climb and jump off'?
Franks: And we're going to take that down by a third.
Hoffman: At least.
Lash: Yeah, I was thinking half.
Hoffman: But do we want to get rid of 2 little walls or...
Lash: Well you can shorten them.
Howe: Especially if you're going to take trees out of there and make that more of an open space, do you
really want to have all those?
Franks: You want to take the top one down all the way.
Lash: If they take the top one out and shorten the bottom one, maybe shorten both of them.
Hoffman: Take it down by $20,000? $30,000?
Lash: Make it $30,000.
Franks: Yeah, take it down by 30. It will be nice though in that grass area to have a place for people to
wander onto the grass and sit without having to be in the grass. That will get used.
Lash: But we could always put benches there too. Could we not? Park benches? Or is that just too tacky?
Franks: Yeah, Ikind ofthink that that kind oftakes away from the integrity.
Lash: Okay, so electrical outlets we need to bump that up, right?
Hoffman: Yep.
Lash: To what?
Hoffman: I don't know. $10,000 probably.
Howe: That much more?
Lash: Or total?
Hoffman: Lots oftrees inthere.
Howe: That's true.
Lash: Not any more.
Franks: I say we only light the trees that are willing to grow as an incentive for them to grow.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoffman: So we're taking it up by $7,000.
Lash: Okay. So then the omamental lighting we need to keep in. Catch basins you need to keep in.
Watermain realigmnent you need to keep in. Accent lighting. Is that like on the trees and stufi~
Hoffman: Yes.
Howe: Everything in here is staying, right?
Lash: Yep, and then eliminate the $8,500 for the kiosk.
Hoffman: And the monument sign?
Franks: And the monument sign.
Lash: And the monument sign. Then we have to have all the miscellaneous stuff.
Howe: Well that's going to come out of it though.
Lash: Because that's all based on percentage rate. Okay.
Hoffman: Reduction by $84,451 is what I came up with.
Howe: What did you get Todd?
Franks: What kind of permits do we have to pay for?
Hoffman: 690,338, but then, what kind ofpermits?
Franks: That we have to pay for.
Hoffman: Watershed permit only.
Franks: $5,000 for the.
Kelly: Could the city kind of tax itself on that or, is that from the city?
Hoffman: It's a different jurisdiction ....state permits.
Kelly: Did you say the city was going to put in benches so people have somewhere to sit? We eliminated
all the benches and tables and chairs, with the exception of the 9 seating unit...with barriers. So they
know where this...
Hoffman: Something has to come back. You can buy that at any time ifyou buy semi-permanent.
Franks: What does that semi-permanent seating?
Hoffman: Moveable picnic tables. Portable. The more semi-permanent, the heavier they are.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Franks: Until you cross the line to permanent.
Hoffman: Well then you bury them in the concrete. Semi-permanent is heavy. Moveable are light. If we
put a real heavy table out there with chairs until maintenance has to move them, that baby's permanent.
Franks: The other reason why the tables and umbrellas and chairs would never work, especially in the
plaza area is, the winds coming through there is going to be mighty strong and they're going to launch.
Hoffman: Just tellingus ifwe're close.
Lash: I'm having a decimal point problem.
Hoffman: This is a concept plan.
Lash: Because when I'm coming up with a total, with all the miscellaneous, the contractor fees and I'm
trying to do 15 percent of my total, I'm coming up with more than what they had.
Spizale: It's 23 percent of your total also. Not 15.
Lash: Well you divide it by the 15 and then I was going to each one separate.
Howe: Okay, so the contractor costs are 20, just take 23 percent of that.
Hoffman: So now we're down to about 670,000 more or less. Which is good. These are too, very round
numbers we're working with. This plan is going to change.
Howe: I get 625,000.
Lash: Total?
Howe: Yeah, with everything. I may be missing some things though.
Hoffman: 625?
Howe: That's what I get.
Hoffman: Now that's a significant difference. 50,000. 45,000. Do you have your sheet marked up?
Howe: Yeah, I got it here.
Hoffman: I can just use it.
Howe: I'm not saying it's right.
Hoffman: I trust a money guy. He's a money guy.
Lash: What'd you come up with?
Howe: I get, when I add back everything in, the 23 percent, contractor design, I get $622,183.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: That's exactly what I got. Just exactly.
Hoffman: 623?
Franks: 622.
Lash: I could make a lot of money, like you.
Franks: 622,183.
Hoffman: Okay.
Lash: And 72 cents.
Howe: I got 1 cent.
Lash: Okay, now if we round up another couple thousand we can do the...
Franks: We've got to pull out those trees and then put them right the same, throw them away and then put
new trees, same species, right back in, same spot and pay 23 percent on top of that to do it.
Spizale: Do they actually throw those trees away or could they put them in another park?
Hoffman: Probably here.
Gregory: We've actually gone out and we've marked all of the trees that are hopefully moveable and
we'll be moving all of those out to the.
Franks: So it's not a complete loss?
Hoffman: Well, if they're over the top of utilities or anything and you can't spade it, then they just get
ripped out. Many of these trees are on top of utilities which you can't manner a spade down into so.
Lash: I can't imagine it can be done decently for any less. I mean we have just totally.
Hoffman: Whittled it right down.
Howe: We'll just have to cut more I mean.
Lash: You know I mean we're looking for donations for any of the extra things and we're just talking the
basic grading, trees and a couple places to sit.
Franks: Maybe we could sell the naming rights to the park.
Howe: No.
Spizale: Target Park.
Franks: They do it with ice arenas.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoffman: Jan I just need somebody else's notes to compare mine to so I can get it right. Thank you. And
put this in the form of a motion to the City Council and I'll mail it to them.
Lash: Anybody have anything you want to add before we take it to that next step? Major red flags or
other problems you see that.
Spizale: I think we did a good job of cleaning things up. Keeping some good stuff.
Lash: Okay, then is there a motion?
Franks: I move that we recommend to the City Council to consider the budget proposal for the City Center
Commons as re-worked by the commission.
Lash: Is there a second to that?
Howe: Second.
Franks moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommends that the City
Council consider the budget proposal for the City Center Commons as amended. All voted in favor
and the motion carried unanimously 5 to O.
SELF-SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: ADULT 3 ON 3 BASKETBALL.
Ruegemer: It started last night. Any questions?
Lash: Very thorough.
Ruegemer: I'm going to save my time to give my time to Susan for the power point presentation.
Lash: He didn't have a power point presentation so we don't want to listen to... Okay, so then we can
move on to the Recreation Center.
RECREATION CENTER REPORT.
Marek: I brought along visual aids tonight because I had a couple of pictures that I wanted to show the
commission. So rather than bring you a couple pictures I put those in the computer and...was absolutely
thrilled that I would be using one of his badges tonight so here we go. This is the Rec Center update and
we're going to...basic financial information. The usual child care discussion. More talk about gardens,
parks...and a new program that we're introducing this summer. So let's get started with the financials.
The main source of revenue out at the recreation center is punch card sales. This is for use of our fitness
room, gymnasium, and aerobic classes. And I've done the history as far back as I could find it. And these
are actual full year increments so I'm only missing that fractional year of 1995 on here. You can kind of
see where that rate increase went into effect where we raised our rates 50 cents per admission and that
happened right at January of 2000. So you can see that bump up there to just over $70,000. Since then
it's leveled off; for a number of reasons. One being that recreation and fitness is one of those things that
just doesn't stay in the budget when times get tough and money is tight so we see that affect out at the rec
center. The second thing is the Highway 5 construction. That closure of the intersection has really
impacted us. More than I thought that it ever would. It's nice that we finally got that great sign on the
north wall of the gymnasium and it's illuminated and it's calling everybody to our location, but they can't
figure out how to get there. Fitness is one of those things that is highly determined by it's convenience,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
and we are not convenient for a large fraction of our community right now so that's affected us
tremendously. The last thing is our fitness revenue is really a self limiting income in that when people buy
punch cards and come to the rec center, if they see that our fitness room is crowded, that open gym is
crowded, that our aerobic classes are crowded, they choose not to come and spend more time. I personally
believe that we are at that sort of self limiting value. After 6-7 years we've finally reached capacity now
where we're just not going to see a lot of growth in that revenue unless we increase rates, and I'm not
suggesting that we do. I'mjust saying that they do sort ofhit that limit. So l think we can look forward to
seeing inbetween $70,000 and $80,000 per year in revenues through our punch card sales. I don't see that
changing much.
Kelly: Are you able to track revenues by the walk-in's or is that too hard to do? People that come in and
pay to because often times you know.
Marek: It would include that money.
Kelly: It does, okay.
Marek: Okay. One of the things that we looked for at the recreation center in our budget cutting
procedures this year was of course where can we cut money out, and miraculously I finally found an
opportunity to get rid of the free coffee that we off'er in our lobby. Todd has commented that he's never
had a good cup of coffee from the rec center so I thought that he might be receptive to that idea since it
does cost us between $500 and $800 a year to actually provide that coffee. So indeed we did decide to
cut that service out. We did decide to cut that service out and we did add a hot beverage center to our
vending area and we'll take a look at that in a moment. But we'll be looking at additional...in the future.
Now let's take a look at our child care program. We've got some interesting things to talk about here.
Some ofyou may recall the discussion about the child care losing quite abit of money through 1998. 1996
to 1998. Late in 1998 we made some changes to our procedure and were able to actually break even in
'99 and 2000. This year however we've lost a bit of money again. And what we've found out, what led to
that discrepancy in the revenue versus expenses is I did have some staff overlap in 2001 where I brought a
new person on and we did have 2 people working in child care for a while. Again the recession affects that
kind of income. People can't afford to come and work out, they certainly can't afford to pay $2.00 per
half hour per child in our child care room. Highway 5 construction again, and for child care one of the
biggest things that's affected us is the wildly varying school start times in our district. We have school
start times ranging anywhere from 7:10 in the moming all the way til 9:30 in our service area. So having
our child care run from 9:00 to 11:30 each day, means that a large fraction of our customers can't use that
service because they need to either get a child off to school or be home to get a child off the bus during
those hours. So we've had that huge affect in our child care this year and again next year the district is
going to change school start times yet again, so.
Lash: But I think you're providing it during the core time that people, I mean the early hours people aren't
going to bring, I mean those are big kids starting then.
Marek: We're getting the best cut at trying to make this go but we haven't gotten a lot of help from these
other areas and that's one of the things that we're just really being caught short this year in child care. At
this point my only plan to address this is to cut out child care over the summer, and so 8 weeks over the
summer we won't provide any child care option at all. And secondly is you know, go back at it hard in the
fall and see if we can get those people back in when the Highway 5 construction opens and again re-look at
school start times and see if we need to adjust our hours at all. But clearly we're going to suffer a loss this
year. And we're not going to make it up.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Franks: In 2002?
Marek: Correct. Right, in 2002 we will. In 2001 we already did.
Lash: So are you anticipating it being similar to 20017
Marek: Yes I am.
Lash: So if you take the graph and actually come up with a dollar amount, what do you think the dollar
amount is as far as the loss?
Marek: Projected loss for 2002? Oh I'm going to say, probably about $2,000 over the course of the year.
Any thoughts or comments on what we might want to do with that program?
Franks: Are you cutting in the summer just because it seems like a time we can cut or are you cutting
because it's traditionally a low time that child care's utilized?
Marek: Both.
Franks: So usage drops typically?
Marek: It drops way down. Usually we only offer child care 3 days a week over the summer, Monday,
Wednesday and Friday, and even then it drops way oft~
Lash: Do you think it's because the mom's don't come during the summer? Because the kids are home,
you'd think they would.
Marek: No. It's because they have school aged children that are at home and so they can't take the
younger ones and go do something because they have older kids at home that need their attention as well.
Lash: So are the mom's not coming at all or are they able to leave the little ones with the older ones?
Marek: They're not coming at all.
Lash: They're not coming at all, okay.
Marek: And people want to be outside. I guess I would like to leave the commission with a thought that
although we take this loss in this program here as seriously as...that we'll be able to be at break even again
beginning in the fall and continuing through the next school year and so I'd like to proceed on that course
realizing that we'll want to keep track of it. I've talked with Todd many times about this situation in the
last 6 months, that things aren't looking good.
Howe: Well I think you're right, beyond your control completely are the construction and this economic
slow down. I think, I've got to give you the benefit of the doubt on that. You can see the progress you
made and then all of a sudden there's a lot of businesses in the same boat. I think you've got 2 good
reasons right there so.
Hoffman: Yeah, after the last critical review in '98, '99, 2000 did very well and then '01, '02 are,
fortunately we're not back to the losses we were experiencing in '97 and '98.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: Yeah, I say give it another year and let the construction complete and then review and see if we
can't break even. If you can't then, then it's going to be back to square one and try and re-visit that
question.
Marek: And it is a real balancing act to try to run at break even and some years I think we're just barely
going to make it and some years we're just barely going to miss. I'm hoping that over a number of years
that this, we will overall have a successful program that does run at break even.
Franks: For 2002, if we could see a breakdown beginning in the fall to the end of the year, and for the
entire year.
Marek: Yes. I can certainly provide that. Okay? We can only hope then that we can make up money
from the hot beverage center. Now, just so you're all aware, this is not a coffee machine. I called up the
vending supply person and asked ifI could have a coffee machine and he very clearly told me excuse me,
we don't offer those. We have hot beverage centers. So we did take the opportunity in getting the hot
beverage center in place at the rec center to also negotiate a commission contract with our snack machines
and the hot beverage center together. Prior to this time we had not had a working agreement that involved
a commission with our snack machine. So going forward we have cut the cost of providing free coffee and
added commissions ofabout 18 percent offofboththe snack machine and the hot beverage center. So
we're looking at a little bit of money there but I don't know if it's enough to pay for the increase in the
lifeguard contract. But we're moving forward.
Hoffman: It has cappucino, lattes, hazelnut, hot chocolate.
Marek: Okay. Here's a picture of, this is why I really wanted to do the power point thing because here's a
picture of the, from the recreation center taken very recently. Of course you still see the snow there.
Hoffman: Boring.
Marek: Very boring. Todd says it's boring. Can you do something to jazz it up and could we please put a
garden in. In front of the...and so we tossed around a few ideas at one of the staff`meetings and decided to
go forward with putting a perennial garden near the entrance to the recreation center. So we've gone
forward with that plan and in fact Nathan Ehler, son of the famous Charlie Ehler, has taken this on as an
Eagle Scout project. Ihave...his booklet that he's working on for his Eagle Scout project and I'll be
sending that around. He couldn't be here tonight as he is in Rykivik, Iceland.
Franks: How large of an area are we talking about here?
Marek: Well as we go forward here I'm going to show you Nathan's drawings which didn't scan very
clearly but the one on the left is actually, it shows the main portion of the parking lot. The sidewalk is in
the upper left portion and that shaded little orange half circle is actually the location of the perennial
garden. As you look at the one on the right, there you see some, that half circle which would be the
garden. That rectangle area in the middle is a poured concrete slab with a park bench on it. And then the
half circle garden around it. The diameter of that area is going to be about 40 feet.
Lash: We have Eagle Scout money still in our budget don't we?
Marek: I realize that the scanner didn't come out very well so I have taken the opportunity to create an
artist rendering...
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoff`man: That's a water feature, isn't it Rod?
Franks: I like those water features.
Marek: So that's where it will be located. We left room for easy snow removal on all sides and we
already have irrigation to that area, and we'll be actually raising that grade up a little bit around the back
side of that bench so it will be more of an elevated perennial garden. To include some minuet lilac, day
lilies, ...sun drops, periwinkle. So we hope that will be colorful. So our plan to get started on this is
sometime in April. I'd like to have it finished by the end of April. Of course the first year out perennial
gardens like to sleep, the second year they creep and the third year they leap. So we're looking a couple
years out before it fully...but I think it will be a lovely addition to the entrance at the rec center. There is
nothing there right now.
Lash: You don't have a flag pole there?
Marek: No.
Lash: How come we haven't got a flag pole there? We should at least have a flag pole.
Marek: So with the help of Nathan, the Eagle Scout candidate and the city park maintenance workers, we
hope... We're just going to do it.
Lash: So can we incorporate a flag pole in there?
Hoffman: A flag pole?
Lash: Yeah. How much is a good flag pole?
Hoffman: A thousand bucks.
Marek: Maybe we can get someone to donate a flag pole.
Lash: A thousand bucks. Okay, we just had down here $3,000 for the.
Franks: We have to light it.
Lash: Oh, okay.
Marek: ...has 21 exhibits already so. Fortunately we've had 3 newspaper features. One on Jim
Montgomery. One on Kay Faust and just recently about a month ago, a feature article on the exhibit that
you see in the picture is by Maria...and this is original art done by orphans in Russia. And it's been a very
popular show out at the rec center. And I continue to be scheduled about 6 to 8 months out and people turn
us down because we're booked that far out. They don't want to wait so, it's been very successful and it
continues to be interesting and challenging. And an update on our third successful dance program out at
the rec center. This year we'll take in more than $50,000 in revenues so that's a very large program for us.
Marion Porter who has been running our dance program has tendered her resignation. She will be gone at
the end of May. After 7 years. Nicole Sorenson is currently an instructor on staff`out at the recreation
center. She is a dance major and will be taking over the coordination responsibilities as the program
continues into the future. So we're very happy to have welcomed her on board in a bigger capacity. And
our spring dance recital th , ,
is May 4 at Eden Prairie Performing Arts Center. This year there s a 70 s
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
theme... So huge program for us and we're looking forward to working through the change in leadership
and continuing on with that very successful program. And then there's this new program coming on board.
A couple of years ago Tracy Peterson and I had talked about running a summer camp out of the warming
house building that doesn't get used so often. And we talked about it but we didn't do anything about it
and this year in early December I met with Marvin...the Ridgedale Y programmer, and I asked him, I said
you know, can we get together and do anything in the warming house, summer camp and he said sure. I've
got a program I can put out there right off`the bat so we've been working together since early December to
get this thing going. This is a banner that we just put up on the warming house about a week and a half ago
that advertises our Y Summer Power Sports Program. This is a weekly sports camp that will be based out
of the recreation center. It's for children entering grades 2 through 5. I'm going to send a brochure around
here. Each day will be a different sport theme. So we've got at least one field trip each week. And
parents can register their children in weekly increments throughout the summer, so you're not locked into
the whole summer's worth. Only one week. The base fee is $135 per week, 6:30 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. and
we'll be running a bus route and picking up children at Guardian Angels, St. John's Lutheran, Chaska
Elementary and Jonathan Elementary. And bringing children to our location for this sports. So we will be
utilizing the interior portion of the building, the kitchen area, the rest rooms, exterior portion, and one
outdoor field, and the rec center gymnasium.
Kelly: Is the program going to recycle every week so every week you have baseball on Monday and
basketball on Tuesday or is this going to be kind of free?
Marek: There are not, there are more sports than there are days in the week so it will not be the same
program each week. And also the field trips that they take will not be the same. So we're really looking
at this as an opportunity for altemative daycare for these children. Rather than babysitting it's.
Franks: Sports camp.
Lash: So there's no bus service from Chan? It's all just.
Marek: No. And our thought on this, being our first year out and our thought is that our market would be
private schools. Private school children rather than public school children because the public schools do
off'er a number of child care programs at each of their locations. So we wanted to hit those public schools,
or those private schools rather. Especially those that the Y already has good recognition in, which are
Guardian Angels and St. John's in Chaska. So we're trying to work off`of that Y name recognition to pull
in our first year market. Although we did do a school distribution to all of the elementary schools in the
district.
Hoff`man: Kyle and Dan want 2 weeks each.
Lash: Tell them to get a little part-time job.
Hoff`man: They're excited.
Franks: I bet they are.
Lash: This looks like our target is Chaska.
Marek: We're running a route right off`Highway 41, yes.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: And ifI were a working parent in Chan and I wanted to sign my kid up, while I could, it wouldn't
be that far to take my kid over there. I mean if they're in fifth grade and you have to leave for work at
7:00 in the moming, you know they could, you know, you could leave them home and they could bike to
Chan Elementary and hook up on the bus and get bussed there. You wouldn't have to, you know what I
mean? So it's, I can see where if this looks like it's going to work out, and I think it looks like a great
idea, I'd like to make sure that we're providing an amenity, if we had Chan Elementary be a pick-up spot
and St. Hubert's be a pick-up spot, at least people in Chan would have the opportunity to get a bus service
going too so that they wouldn't have to drive the kid.
Marek: At this point we're not ruling that out. We just don't know where our market is going to be on our
first year. Marvin is very flexible with regard to changing some of these things. The Y has their own bus
drivers so they have total control over where they send those buses and when, so that is a point that we
definitely can... We need about 16, we were looking for about 16 children minimum.
Lash: A week?
Marek: Each week. And we're thinking 35 maximum but if we happen to go higher than that, I'm sure
that we'll be able to accommodate it. Like I said, Marvin and I are going sort of feeling right now that
we're out on a limb here so hope people sign up.
Howe: Have these gone out yet?
Marek: They were delivered to the schools last week for distribution to all the schools. It will also be in
our summer newsletter that comes out May 5th.
Howe: Do we get some revenue from this?
Marek: We get 10, our take on this is $10.00 per registration per week. Which over the course of the
summer would be a minimum of about $2,200. So not that much of a revenue generator for us, but we're
certainly looking at providing a service to our community and also using this great facility that we have.
Lash: You maybe already said this but you had so much information I couldn't take it all in at once. Is
each week a little different so if you want to sign your kid up for all summer you could and it wouldn't be
the same thing over and over?
Marek: Yes. The Ridgedale Y actually runs this program at their location at Ridgedale and also at two
Hopkins school locations and in talking with Marvin about this, they very often get children who sign up
for the whole summer.
Lash: I think this is a great idea.
Hoffman: And this is grades going into second...
Marek: Children entering grades 2 through 5. So I hope I'm back here in the fall telling you what a great
success it was.
Franks: It's their staff'?
Marek: Yes. Marvin already has a stafl~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: I'd be really surprised if it doesn't really fly. I just think there's a huge call for that in the summer.
Marek: I hope so. The school, the public school, summer child care program at Jonathan Elementary
already is full so we're hoping that we can pull some of those children as well that are getting tumed down
at the public schools.
Kelly: ...what happens on bad weather days? Is it a free for all in the rec center on bad weather days?
Marek: First of all we've got the interior space of the wanning house, the lobby area portion of the
wanning house which certainly can hold that number of children. The Y also does have programming for
rain out days to keep them active. Secondly I do have a room inside the rec center that's blocked out
every day all summer long as that, but space as we get registrations and look at the numbers, we'll decide
if we need to use that or not. So no, they don't just kind of come in and wreck havoc on the rec center.
We've got a plan for that.
Lash: For the swimming, where do they go swimming? Do they go to the Y or do they go to the beach?
Marek: Yes and yes. We've got I think 4 different locations that they take the children to. Minnetonka
Regional and they'll bus them to Chaska, to Lake Ann, and I think the Ridgedale location.
Hoffman: They do one field trip a week?
Marek: At least one.
Hoffman: Kids are going to love it.
Marek: So if you know any children, get them to sign up. And that's all I had for today.
Howe: Good job.
Lash: Tell Rick we were not impressed.
Marek: I'll tell him.
Lash: We've seen better. That was great. I'm impressed. Anybody can do power point.
Hoffman: Very cool.
Lash: Very impressive. Nice job Susan. Anybody have any questions or comments for Susan?
Franks: Great kind of programming and great that it's a partnership.
Marek: Yeah, so far it's been okay. You know I've worked with the Y quite a bit on the youth, the
preschool sports program and it's been a very successful relationship and when I mentioned this to Marvin
he was like, where do we put it. Bring it on and so, it's been...just hope that the kids come.
Lash: Yeah but he didn't have to invent the wheel. You know you just.
Marek: No. He's got, the good thing is that he already has an existing programming and we're bringing
the location and hopefully a market.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoff`man: This is making us money this way. If we were doing it, it would be costing us big money.
Franks: Absolutely.
Lash: Well and again, you're not reinventing the wheel.
Hoffman: And the people are getting the service they want.
Lash: At a reasonable cost. And it's not for preschool.
Franks: And it's not preschool.
Howe: I thought it was 2 to 5 year olds...
Lash: I know, I know. I saw that too and I stuck it... Okay. So we can move on. Dale.
PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE REPORT.
Gregory: Okay. Well, winter's over. Last year I was telling what a great winter we had. Such a great
skating season. It was our second best last year. We had 82 days of skating. This year I'm here to tell you
this was our worst year. Our season actually ran from December 29th to February 13th which we have a full
27 days in which we were open... So we did not have a real good year for skating. I did include the report
that Corey had as far as with the numbers. The 26 days we were open, they did get a lot of use. There was
like 4,300 kids using the rinks for those 26 days where last year our whole season on those same rinks was
only 6,200 so 2,000 more for that much more time so it did get used a lot during the time we had them
open. So that was one good thing. Being we had a short season right off`the bat we, Todd and I talked and
we knocked out the 7 family rinks at the neighborhood parks that we didn't use this year. So our budget
for the year and that actually came down and it was less than half for doing our skating rinks this year.
From 2 years ago it was up $33,000 almost 34. To this year it was only $16,000. And if you look at the
operations on volume per day, it cost, I print that out for 2 years ago was $400 a day. This year it was up
to $627, but where we really had a lot of the problems is we opened and closed 4 times this season, so the
rinks were in such bad shape we had to start over and we went right back to a few times when we went
back to flooding 24 hours and nights and everything else so it brought those costs up a little bit more for
the actual day to day cost. But all and all for the short season it did end up actually not too bad. Anybody
have any questions on the skating part of it?
Lash: Did we have any people calling in complaining because the family, or the neighborhood rinks were
not open?
Hoff`man: They called to put in, voice their concem that we would not bring them back next year and I
had to give them many guarantees that they would be coming back next year. If you add the 7 rinks back
in, your costs jump dramatically and your use goes up only proportionally. Very minor percentage so we
have that as one of our 2002 goals is to look at all of our services that we provide and make sure that we're
providing services that are most efficient and those 7 outside rinks are not efficient, although they are a
nice service for those people that use them. And they would as soon see somebody else's money invested
in their rink so they could have access to them, which is very convenient but we'll be bringing you a
recommendation later on this summer.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Gregory: Okay, going into the wood duck houses. I have to apologize. Somewhere along the line I
gave.., the totals or percentage is at the end so... It actually was our lowest year, or 2 years ago, the year
2000 we were down to 46 percent. This year we're open to 53 percent. We've gone through, we cleaned,
cleaned out all of the duck houses ready for this year so they're already, I don't know if wood ducks have
a cycle the same as gross or any of the other things and that but, we were up fairly high for quite a while
there and it just seemed like we started going down and like I say, I don't know if wood ducks have a
cycle or not but hopefully they do and we're maybe on the uphill swing of it now. But it has definitely
been a very good program. I mean it's for the month...it gets a lot of use so it is definitely doing it's job.
Hoffman: This is a direct extension of the senior men's and then boy scout projects so they have a desire
to build bird houses. One of them they like to build is wood duck houses. If they build the city wood duck
houses, somebody has to maintain them and put them out there so.
Gregory: Also getting into this spring a little bit here and that, we've had the opportunity to get the STS
people and get a census or. We've gotten to know the guy in charge out there very well. I mean we're one
of his bigger people that he's.., so we're able to get 4 days out of him right away this year and that and
they helped us out a lot. I figured out we got 140 man hours out of them and we had a bunch of new tables
here to be put together. They put all that stuff`together for us. We rebuilt 34 of the tables that were in
need to be rebuilt to put recycled pine saw. I had 2 of my guys out there. They were basically rebuilding
any metal work. Anything that had to be done so it worked out real well and then we get a lot of use out of
these people. We also, they also came out and took the goals for us. Soccer goals and we have a
commitment from them that they will be back. We've got about 15 more tables that can be put together
and rebuilt and also...painting everything for us .... they also come along in the spring, what they do, they
do the downtown and clean it all up. They do all the blowing of the sand off`the streets and everything for
us so we'll, when that happens you'll see probably about 6-8 people down there at one time and they're
just blowing and cleaning and raking and like I say, they've been doing that for about the last 5-6 years for
us so it's really been a good program for us to help us out. Just a note on the Lake Susan down here with
the late freeze up and the lack of snow this whole year. We've had good oxygen levels and that down
there. We didn't have to do anything so that was, helped us out this year. We didn't have to maintain
that, the oxygen down there. Just getting started now into the summer help people. If anybody knows of
seasonal kids I'm still about 4 short. We put on approximately 15 people and I've got some coming back,
and I've also hired a couple more. We've hired people to...which is helping out and they're able to come
and as soon as the grass starts growing, the retired guys want to come and work and they're willing to work
all summer so it's, we're doing pretty good except we're still about 4-5 high school kids quality kids short
yet. But we should be able to manage that okay. Other than that, that's all I've got unless somebody's got
some questions.
Franks: Are the retired lawnmower guys coming back this year? Those brothers.
Gregory: I've got one that is not coming back. One of the, who lives out in East Union...he's decided
he's, he wants to spend more time at home and go on some trips this year. John Segner is my standby
that's been here for 8-10 years and that. He is coming back in the spring and then he'll come back in the
fall when we don't have the kids. He'll help us out inbetween there so he's going to be here to help train
in the new guys. I've got 2 new guys that are really anxious and enthused about coming and helping during
the summer so. At least I've got that part of it covered. I don't have to have any seasonal kids on our big
lawnmowers. We're in good shape there.
Lash: Anybody else have anything for Dale? No? Looks good. Thanks Dale. You guys do a great job.
Howe: You sure do.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Lash: It always looks good.
ADMINISTRATIVE: COMMISSION APPLICANTS.
Lash: We got the new update tonight. Are there people who know already that they are not available next
Tuesday?
Spizale: I'm not, I'm out of town.
Lash: Okay. How about you Mike?
Howe: I should be.
Lash: Okay. I can be here.
Franks: I believe I can be here.
Lash: I'm assuming we can, I figure Dave won't be here. How about Jay? Did he say anything to you
about it?
Hoffman: Haven't heard. I'm not sure, Dave may be here. It's the fourth Tuesday's he's having difficulty
with.
Lash: What do we want to do about the Amy O'Shea, she can't be here on the 2nd.
Hoffman: Tom, you're out of town then? For the record, at least one of the candidates.
Kelly: No. It's not for the record so.
Franks: Amy called me and wanted to talk about not being able to be here for the interview for us, and she
had said that he had been trying to make it work but just couldn't work it in. Was really concemed that
she then wouldn't be able to be considered for the position so, I believe that if she really could be here for
the interview, it really sounded like she would make every effort to be here but just can't.
Lash: I'm asking what we can do when. Is it something we could pose the questions to her in writing and
have her, you know give us the answers to the questions or do we want to try and do it a different night or
do we just want to pass her onto the City Council? What do we want to do about it?
Hoffman: Yeah you could do it, you could send out the questions that you typically have asked in the past
and have her respond in writing and review those that evening. The next best thing.
Franks: Do you have copies of those questions? Could you mail a copy of those out to each of us prior to
the 2nd? I know we've gone over that time and time again. I think that last list that we used was a pretty
good set of questions.
Lash: Also, I'm not sure if the questions for people who haven't been involved too much in the process are
clear enough, but the criteria or sort of the ranking order that we've used in the past and some of the
criteria that we've used I think is important for people to know. But we could probably get into it that
night but if we have a list, just to refresh people's memory of what they are.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoffman: Okay, I'll send it along.
Lash: You know what I'm talking about?
Hoffman: Sure do.
Lash: Otherwise all of the candidates certainly look.
Howe: They look very good.
Lash: I think this is, is this the first time we've seen Brenda's?
Hoffman: First time you've seen Brenda's. And Amy's. Remember that 3 of the terms will be 3 year
terms and one of the terms will be a 2 year term to fill in for Dave's.
Franks: I'm assuming that we have one interview time open. If there's an applicant, are they still willing
to accept applications or is it closed?
Hoffman: I'm still taking applications.
Franks: Still taking them. So that time could potentially be filled in. Okay.
Hoffman: And we'd go later if we had more.
Franks: Okay, got it.
Lash: Okay. Okay, and then Todd you wanted to add on the Boyer Lake and the Timber Lake.
Hoffman: These were handed down to all of the city departments as they arrive in the process. Let's see.
Here's Highway 7. Dogwood Road. Minnewashta. Okay, this is the other one. If you look at the site
map, let's focus on that first here... This is the Arboretum on the south side of Lake Minnewashta.
Highway 5 or Arboretum Boulevard is shown. Crimson Bay Road is this cul-de-sac that comes out just
cross from the Arboretum and then there's two properties here that are joining together and just off of the
lake, to be subdivided into, what they're calling Timber Lake. So their request is for a preliminary plat
with a variance for a private street to create 6 single family lots and a wetland alteration permit. The
property is zoned Rural Residential located at two addresses are 7537 and 7550 Dogwood Road. The
applicant is Coil'man Development Services. The one piece of history that we have in this location is, are
you all familiar with how Dogwood Road winds it way down into here from Highway 417 Dogwood goes
way back, up along Camp Tanadoona. And so Dogwood is the entrance to Camp Tanadoona olTof 41 as
you head west. You go past the future church, and down all the way to the bottom of Dogwood. Crimson
Bay, the other cul-de-sac is right down at this location. You can see Crimson Bay Road is showing up here
a little bit. When this property was subdivided many years ago there was an easement for trail purposes
that went right through here. And the intention of that is to connect the regional park to the north with the
Arboretum in the south and then allow all the future residents in these areas as they develop to gain access
by a trail both to the north and to the south. That was deleted from this property after a request and debate,
request by the property owner and debate at that time by the council and our commission that goes back a
long ways. And an easement was taken around the entire perimeter of this property in stead, which just
does not make a great deal of sense if you're thinking in trail terms. So if we have the ability I would
think it would be appropriate to get this time as they subdivide to again look for that cut through
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
connection between Dogwood Road and Crimson Bay cul-de-sac for pedestrians. I think it's important
that we take the time to look at this at our April meeting and just wanted to get your thought processes
going. Anybody, are you all familiar with this property at, the lady that was there, one of them, remember?
Howe: On Dogwood?
Hoff`man: Yeah, that writes the books. She's in here quite a bit .... you can see the private drive.
Maintaining the two properties that are currently there. And then putting the development in this area.
Howe: Is it pretty heavily wooded Todd?
Hoffman: No. Not in this area. You can see the wood line here. Then the homes, you can see the homes
and in these are septic sites, primary and altemate. The boxes.
Lash: So how big is it?
Hoffman: Well these are big lots, 2 V2 acres.
Franks: Where's the sixth house?
Hoff`man: 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 new lots. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. You have an existing home here and this one would be a
new home. That's an existing home there too.
Lash: So you have 2 existing homes and they're going to put in 6 new ones?
Hoff`man: Looks like 2 existing and 4 new ones, right? 1, 2, 3, 4. So we'll take a look at that in more
detail and the second one is on the north side of Lake Minnewashta called Boyer Lake Minnewashta
Addition. If you're all familiar with Lake Minnewashta and that funny channel that sticks out on the north
side. It reaches almost to Highway 7. That's the location of the proposed development. It's pretty
extensive. It takes what is generally an open and brushy area and open space right now and puts in, how
many lots are they asking for? 11 lots, one beachlot. The bulk of the lots come off`from Dartmouth Drive
from the west into this cul-de-sac and then you'll have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 lakeshore properties with this one being
the beachlot. And then on the east side coming off`of Washta Bay Road a cul-de-sac with 1, 2, 3 lots, one
of them being a lakeshore lot. You can imagine this property is not overly attractive. It's fairly low but
these are going to be some highly desirable lots. From our standpoint we have the trail, the parks and
recreation program, we have the trail on the north side. I don't think you're going to be seeking a
neighborhood park. We have a neighborhood just off`to the west, so the concept here would be to look for
park and trail fees on both of these properties. Unless I hear other ideas from the commission, this one, we
would just go ahead and forward that recommendation to the planners.
Spizale: Is that thing by the channel, is that multiple docks?
Hoffman: Yep. Shared facility for the property.
Lash: And there's all kinds of rules and regulations for neighborhood beachlots already so.
Hoff`man: You have to meet all of the city codes. It's...practice for the property. It's not the first time it's
been proposed. It's been...every few years.
Howe: Who's doing this one?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Hoff`man: Boyer. Are you familiar with Boyer Building? These will be the easy ones to sell. These two
up here will be a little tougher.
Lash: So the neighborhood park that would service this is Roundhouse?
Hoff`man: No. Minnewashta Heights. Just off`Highway 7.
Lash: Oh. I was thinking this was further west.
Hoffman: And then Herman Field I think would actually be in the service area as well. And the trails are
developed. The one thing, I think what they're showing here is a pathway of some sort. See these inter-
connecting paths to the beachlot. And then down here. So they're actually putting in their own trail
connection so people can get to and from these trails. It wouldn't be a bad spot to live.
Spizale: Kind of close to the highway.
Hoff`man: Kind of close to the highway and in the shallow part of the bay but when you're talking
beachfront property on Lake Minnewashta, there's not much left.
Spizale: Is that channel very deep or is that just a real, that channel that goes back. That's a man made
channel isn't it?
Hoff`man: Yeah, you can motor through there. From my experience, this shallows out a little bit and then
it gets deep just from the sediment forming in this area. They fish there in the spring.
Spizale: Yeah, I see people down there.
Hoff`man: That's all.
Lash: Okay.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS.
Lash: Michael, have you got one?
Howe: I don't have one. Jerry do you want to just talk about your most recent Dave Huff`man news that
you shared with me earlier?
Ruegemer: Yeah. Part of the Race Committee met last Thursday. If you recall conversations with Kathy
and donating $2,500 to the race last year. We did meet with Dan Seaman. He's a Chan resident and also
is the kind of one of their top marketing guys for KFAN radio. We did meet with them last Thursday and
to kind of get them more involved with the race. They have committed to doing some PSA's and some
radio announcements for us and he's pretty confident that he'll work it into some radio shows and that sort
of thing. And then also help with promotion, you know day of type of thing bringing some of their KFAN
vehicles or whatever out here. Just kind of an addition to the event. They had talked about bringing key
personalities from KFAN out here to kind of hobnob similar to kind of what we had with Ragnar last year.
Take pictures, kind of entertain, that sort of thing so it looks like we're going to have a pretty good
partnership with KFAN as well. And in tum we'll certainly put their name on the banner as sponsors and
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
we also talked about probably putting their logo on the t-shirts. So the cost for radio spots, that sort of
thing is going to be a pretty nice thing for us for free.
Howe: Thanks Jerry.
Lash: Okay. I don't think I'm on any committees. How about you?
Kelly: No.
Lash: Jack?
Spizale; Just I'm on the library thing. I think everybody knows everything about the library. There's
nothing new to report on it but.
Lash: Good job Jack.
Hoffman: Good job. Amazing on it.
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
Franks: Unleashed dog area in the plan.
Lash: It is or it's not?
Franks: It is.
Hoff`man: It's been widely supportive at those meetings. Jack was at a meeting. I attended the last
meeting. Supported. The most unique thing about that plan is they reduced, they eliminate one of the boat
accesses. So they consolidate them even more.
Franks: How large of an area are they looking at for the off`leashed dog area?
Hoff`man: Big. 8 acres.
Franks: 8 acres worth, great.
Hoff`man: With a separate access to the north.
Lash: Jerry, on the soccer club donation. Do you have something specific in mind that you're going to use
that donation for?
Ruegemer: No, nothing specific. We talked about maybe doing some netting, that sort of thing. But
nothing at this point. That was a donation stemming from the, if you recall the toumament last year that
they kind of co-sponsored with Eden Prairie. That was part of the negotiation to use the facility was a
donation of $2,500. Which we received about a month and a half ago.
Lash: Which of course could account for some pencil sharpening. Just kidding. That would never happen.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 26, 2002
Ruegemer: Susan said she's going to bring in 2,200 bucks from the YMCA so we'll just kind of do a little
shell game.
Lash: Her hot beverage center. It's hot. Okay, looks like the ski toumament's fine. Right? Anybody
else have anything?
Howe: Jerry, what happens if there's snow on the ground for Saturday's Easter Egg Hunt? Do you go
indoors or are you confident that we'll.
Ruegemer: We're still formulating that plan, but we have Plan A, B and C at this point so our goal is
always to have it outside, which I think we probably will.
Lash: A little bit of snow and ice isn't going to hurt.
Ruegemer: We'll just find, Dale will just have to mulch up some candied eggs.
Gregory: We can handle that.
Lash: Bury some of that candy in the snow, it just makes it a little tougher. It's just a little muddy, that's
all. Better than inside. I lived through the inside ones a couple years and no fun.
Ruegemer: Trick or treat Easter stuff.
Lash: No fun. It was crazy. Okay, anybody else have anything? No, okay. Is there a motion to adjoum?
Howe moved, Franks seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim