PRC 2002 11 26CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
NOVEMBER 26, 2002
Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Amy O'Shea, Tom Kelly, Paula Atkins, David Happe and
Jack Spizale
MEMBERS ABSENT: Glenn Stolar
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Superintendent;
PUBLIC PRESENT:
Name Phone Number
Helen Merchant
Rita Klauda
Brenda Petersmeyer
Ted J. Koltes
Brandon & Thomas MacFarlane
952-443-2492
952-934-7844
952-949-0698
952-470-8632
952-934-5175
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: As presented.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
Helen Merchant: My name is Helen Merchant and I'm Principal at Chanhassen Elementary and
we're here to talk about the vandalism that's been happening at our school over the last couple of
years. And first of all I want to say, we have been so appreciative of all the support that the city
has given to our school. We think about the city park behind the elementary, it's incredible and
the kids have really benefited from it just in the activities that they play during the school day.
The basketball, the four square, the fields for the soccer and the baseball and just so many other
activities so first of all I do want to say you know, thank you for all your support. We've really
benefited from that. We have our track and field day there where all of our families or a lot of
our families come and help celebrate the track and field day and it's just a beautiful facility for
that too. Which really teaches our kids physical fitness, the compassion for others and also really
teaches our kids collaboration. I work all year round so I get to see the kids not only at Chan
Elementary use it but I get to see other kids throughout the summer using it too and I know it's
used in the evening by all of the schools in this area and so it is truly a blessing to have that. And
the other thing I would like to do is comment on the police coverage that we've had at Chan
Elementary the last couple months especially. I think they've done a really good job to try to stop
some of the vandalism so we're here tonight you know to say thank you for one thing. For our
beautiful field and the support that you've given our school over the years. It's really made a
difference. But we think you should be aware of some of the concems that we have over the last
couple of years. Prior to that, I've been in that building for 12 years now, very, very seldom, my
head custodian and I have talked many, many times, we'd probably have 2 or 3 phone calls to the
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
police a year. Around Halloween or something like that, but very seldom. Since the addition of
the skate park, and I'm not saying just the skate park, but sine that addition of that, we've had
much more vandalism to our building and I've Rita Klauda to come join me tonight. She's our
PTO President to talk about our concerns.
Rita Klauda: Good evening. It's a pleasure to be here. My name is Rita Klauda and I'm here
tonight as a parent of 3 children. Two that went to Chanhassen Elementary and one who's
currently still there in the 4th grade. I'm here as a staff member at Chanhassen Elementary, and
also as the PTO President at Chanhassen.
Franks: Rita, excuse me. Could you give us your address for the record.
Rita Klauda: Sure. Our address, my address is 8130 Marsh Drive in Chanhassen.
Franks: Thanks.
Rita Klauda: You're welcome. And I just have some pictures this evening ofjust a little bit of a
sampling of the vandalism that's happened probably over the last 18 months to 2 years at
Chanhassen Elementary. I've been doing lunch and recess over the last 3 years and just have
been seeing a problem getting worse and worse and worse and this year, I take the first graders
out for first lunch and so our first graders are the first ones out onto the playground during the
day, approximately noon. And every Monday, except for 3 since the beginning of the school
year, and that includes yesterday, we've found some sort of vandalism. Some sort of, to the
grounds, to our building, to the equipment, since the beginning of school. There's only been 3
Mondays where we haven't found something out there and unfortunately sometimes the first
graders have found it and not an adult. I'm not quite sure how the camera works here. Little
messages written on the swings. First graders went to swing on the swings. Mrs. Klauda. Yeah.
What does this say? We've had our building spray painted. We've had our windows broken and
our doors, which were very expensive to replace. Here's another picture of a window broken and
it's difficult to see, but there used to be a surveillance camera right here. Also a surveillance
camera on this door. Someone didn't like them. They chose to tear them down. The playground
equipment, this is difficult to see but this is one that we found last year. The equipment has been
bumed. It has been cut. It has been written on. Obscenities with marker. Besides our windows
and our cameras, signs have been tom out that people have disagreed with. Torn right out of the
ground trying to set off some rules. The playground has been burned. We've found, one day a
little first grader came to Miss Stone and said Miss Stone, my basketball won't come through the
net. Miss Stone walked over, little first grader, there was a condom twisted into the net. Not
letting the ball drop through the net. I was told today by one of the other para's, she picked up a
used condom off the playground just yesterday. Liquor bottles have been smashed against our
school. Little first graders have come up with empty cardboard containers of 24 packs, empty
beer cans. Just this year off`the playground. They're picking up liquor containers. And matches
and cigarette butts and the F word, and FU and F this school messages spray painted across our
back boards of our basketball hoops. That cost us approximately $500, the school, out of the
school's capital budget, $500 to repair that. We try to repair that before the kids get out onto the
playground. That's why we try and catch it. Things have been stolen out of our building. People
have walked in our back door. VCR's have been stolen. Eggs have been thrown at our school.
Screens have been slashed. I mean it's absolutely ridiculous. Now it is my personal task to walk
around every Monday morning, I've taken this on myself because I'm absolutely exasperated
with this activity. I drop my son off at school and I walk around the building every morning,
every Monday morning looking for something so our children don't have to see it, so I can run in
and tell our custodian, hurry up and get out there before the kids see it, because I don't think that
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
delivers the right kind of message to our children who are supposed to feel safe in their school.
Actually Brenda Petersmeyer, our Assistant Principal now has something that she's like to say
and I'll be back.
Happe: Todd, could we pass those pictures around?
Brenda Petersmeyer: My name is Brenda Petersmeyer. I am the Administrative Assistant over at
the elementary school. I want to share just a couple things with you. Since, I have a police report
here between July 14th and November 14th, which is 4 months, we've had 14 phone calls to the
police, and that is just in that 4 month period of time. Tennis court net is on fire. Property has
been stolen. Vandalism to school. We've had vandalism to windows. Theft of bicycle. Theft of
bicycle. Stolen bike. That's 3 bikes in a row. Bicycle has been thrown through the door. Two
juveniles breaking branches off our newly planted trees, which the PTO purchased for when we
had our September 11th ceremony. Black permanent marker writing on basketball back boards,
total damage $500. Again, what Rita had talked about. Five juveniles out in the parking lot.
Those kids are out there. It's not just skate park kids. We have kids out there during the end of
the school day when our kids are trying to get on the bus. I have seen kids out there playing
football in the parking lot when parents are trying to pick their kids up. They're smoking. I have
safety patrols who are reporting to me daily that there are kids out there, sexual activity that's
going on. They're absolutely grossed out by this. The smoking in the parking lot. We had
people that were picked up for possession of drugs and marijuana. We truly believe that there is
drug activity going on at our school in the area. My biggest concern I guess right now is that we
have kids out there on the playground and it's becoming a huge safety issue. A few weeks ago,
or a week ago or so, we have fourth grade girls who were approached by kids from the skate park.
It was 12:30 in the aftemoon. They had commented to them that they were skipping school.
They were swom at. They were sexually harassed and this is in the middle of the aftemoon.
They have behaviors going on that are smoking. They're, my concern is what's it going to take
before something is done. Does a child have to be stolen? Does a child have to be hurt? I was
called immediately by the paraprofessionals. Their job is to watch the kids out there, not babysit
the skate park. And stand in front of that skate park, I can't tell you every single day when I walk
out there and check out, if I check out if there's something going on on the playground, how
many kids are at the skate park in the middle of the aftemoon. My question is, where are you
supposed to be? You know these are middle school kids. If they're skipping school, that's their
business but they're harassing our kids. And it's getting to the point where it's a safety issue
because I'm concerned for our children and I don't know what can be done in terms of truancy,
but we're concemed about can we possibly shut that gate that goes right to our playground for
those kids who are out there? It's a 2 V2 hour period, 3 hour period during the day. Our kids
don't need to go through that. Our parents don't need to feel that our kids are not safe at school.
We have 2 para's out there, sometimes 3 and their job is to watch the kids on the playground and
not make sure that the skate park kids are harassing them. Not harassing them. Okay. Rita's
going to continue.
Rita Klauda: I'd like to dove tail on Brenda's request. I personally, as a staff member who's out
on that playground every day, would like to see that gate closed permanently. The only
difference between what's inside the gate and what's outside the gate is a chain link fence.
There's a perfectly paved path between the ice rink and the skate park for people to walk. I mean
I don't see an inconvenience factor there. We have children who's balls roll off the playground
and into the skate park and the children are you know verbally abused by the people in the middle
of the day who are at the skate park. They just run to get their, to retrieve their ball and they're,
you know and they're taken to task and foul language is used and they come back. They
shouldn't have to tolerate that. I just, I can't see why it just can't be shut. It's I think the safety
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
for our children far outweighs the inconvenience it might cause someone trying to get into the
park. They ought to just go down and just walk around. I don't understand why that's open.
Maybe there's a reason that I don't know of but I just don't understand that. And also I think
these people somehow or other in the evening particular, the people who are particularly camping
out in the north parking lot, I think something needs to be done about those people. It's the
people, the person who was arrested for possession of drug paraphernalia and marijuana, that's
the same person who at 8:30 in the evening chased me from the parking lot. I drove through the
parking lot just to check out to see what was going on because I kept seeing the same vehicles
there, and I though this isn't right. Something's going on. I drove through there. I stopped. I
looked around. I had my daughter in the van with me. We decided to drive out and all of a
sudden, the person, because I know the license number, came at a very high rate of speed, flying
out of the parking lot after me. Followed me very, very, very closely. I tried to remain calm
because my daughter was in the van. She was scared to death. Mommy, what's happening? And
he backed off but he followed us down to the stop lights, turned, still followed us, and by the
Country Suites I was going to turn left because that's not the direction of my house and I didn't
want him to follow me there. Got up in the lane beside us. Parked. Reved his engine. Out of the
comer of my eye I could see he was looking at me trying to intimidate me. It was 8:30 in the
evening. Why can't I drive through the parking lot at the elementary school? Because they
didn't want me there. Because they were up to no good and they wanted me to go away. And so
as a parent that says, it's not even safe for me to be there, let alone my kids. In September, after I
started seeing all this thing, my daughter loves, my 7th grade daughter loves to play tennis. I
won't let her ride her bike up here to play tennis. I don't know who's in that parking lot. I don't
think it's safe, and that's sad. She went to school there. She loves that school. Why can't she
ride her bike up and play tennis at 5:30 in the aftemoon? She should be able to, but I don't think
it's safe. I won't let her. And my son was on the playground when those kids came off`the skate
park and started harassing the girls. I don't like the thought of that. And I know for a fact that I
heard obscene language from those people coming from the skate park. I've had kids tell me that
they hear all kinds of terrible things over there. They're at recess and they overhear these things
during the day. And we've also had parents call the school saying that when they drive through
the parking lot to pick up the kids, they have seen suspicious activity. They have things, seen
things that leave them with the impression, and this is their personal feeling, that they've
expressed to Helen and to Brenda and to myself, that they feel that dmgs are being sold in that
north parking lot. That's their personal impression but they say what is going on over there and
that's really scary, as a parent. As a staff`member. And it just really scares me because our kids
should be safe.
Helen Merchant: I think what's really, you know kind of scary about this is that these aren't
things that we're just hearing about. I mean the police report does support that there has been
some dmg possession over there. Marijuana or whatever. Even if it's one or two kids, what else
is happening there and that's my concern. And so I'm just, I guess we're just asking for your
assistance in any way possible to try to address the vandalism that is happening. With the
increase we are worried about it. We can keep an eye on the kids during the day. They're going
to be safe with our care, but we can't protect them from the verbal, you know things, comments
that come back off the skate park. Most the kids at the skate park I think do a really nice job, but
there are enough of them that we do have some concems. And so I'm not sure what the answer
is. I did meet with the police department a couple of months ago. I met with Todd several times.
I know they're trying but I just feel like you know, Officer Dave Potts has been wonderful. I
think the last two months he's had tons of coverage over there and I really think the police have
done a good job of clearing out that parking lot quite a bit compared to what it was. So I'm
asking for the continued support from the police department, but I'm also asking about a barrier
between the skate park and the school to eliminate those harassment issues. I don't know if that
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
gate's going to be enough. I don't know if we need to put up a wood fence there between and it's
primarily during the recess time when the kids are at recess. That's 2 V2 hours a day. So that's
one of the things that we're looking at, asking if that's a possibility. At the minimum being able
to lock that gate and keep the kids, balls from going in there. But I really think that would help
eliminate some of the playground issues. Also the playground equipment has been vandalized.
The cost to maintain and repair this equipment, I have the invoice is $5,198, and that's not just for
the repairs to the vandalism. That's to kind of maintain it too. We were, I did contact the city.
They weren't able to support us as far as sharing the cost of the repairs. But during the past few
years, I've been here 12 years, the city and the PTO have worked together to build that
playground and it's not just used by Chan Elementary kids. It's used by a lot of other kids too.
And I think the PTO paid I think $19,000. The City I think paid 19 wasn't it Todd? Do you
remember how much for that last playground phase?
Hoffman: I don't recall but it was a split, yeah.
Helen Merchant: Right, and so we've had the support of the city with the playground and we
really appreciate that and with the vandalism, these things, costs are increasing and I know the
city's on a tight budget and we are too. I think that's why again we ask for your support in any
way that you can. Another thing I just mentioned, we had a port-a-potty over in that area of the
parking lot. I think that was an attraction to the kids that were having some social time over there
so if we can get that moved too, but I think more so than anything else is, you know having the
police coverage. I don't know if it's a surveillance camera. I don't know if it's, what the answer
is, we're asking your help but what we want to do is just make you aware of what's going on over
there and sure it's not the building being bumt down or you know bomb threats or anything like
that, but it's a lot of nickel and diming and I think nickel and diming does add up and it takes
resources away from the city. It takes resources away from our school. It takes resources away
from our PTO and that makes it hard too so again we don't know what the answers are. The
reason we came tonight is just to express our concern and to ask if you could help any way. I will
leave the police report that I received from Officer Potts today. I will leave a report of some of
the things that we shared tonight. We will drop off`the rest of the pictures. I have more pictures
back at the school. I will also leave an invoice as far as the playground equipment, and again it's
up to the park board and the city to decide how much they're going to help us here, if they are.
We just want to let you know that we'll appreciate anything that you can do for us. Thank you
for letting us speak today.
Franks: Thank you.
Helen Merchant: The other thing I just wanted to mention too is, I talked to one of the people
from Flanagan, and we are going to have to replace our playground within the next 5 to 10 years
and, because of safety issues and again this is not just for Chan Elementary. This is for the
children that use that park in the summer time and I don't know if we'll have the support as far as
splitting that cost again but I know the PTO would be very supportive of that, as they have been
in the past, of looking into that for sure too. Okay, any questions?
Franks: Well let's open it up. If you want to stay at the podium.
Helen Merchant: Sure.
Franks: And if it's okay with the other people, is there anyone else wishing to speak on this
matter first of all? Okay. We'll open it up then for some questions and if any of the
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
commissioners, any of the questions directed to the other two have spoken, if you'd be willing to
come up.
Spizale: I guess one question, what was the sheriff's solution? Did he have any?
Helen Merchant: Well he said, you know that he would make sure that they did come to the
building quite a few more times. They were trying to do that. We did talk about, for a while,
chaining off that part of the parking lot, but then the police can't get over in that area, so that was
another issue so we've tried to brainstorm some suggestions. I think the most help has been the
increase in coverage by the police department. But I just don't know what else we can
recommend at this point. Oh yeah, we did install lights and Paul, Paul Sleutter is our building
and grounds person. Do you want to say something about the lights?
Paul Sleutter: Well I'll just mention that we do have a part of our capital budgeting process this
year was to add additional lighting on the, it used to be the west side of the building, which we've
done. Kind of a first phase of that now determining if it's adequate or if we need to add
additional lighting which we will do if we need to do so.
Spizale: Yeah, and one other question too. I think in that police report there was a couple
citations given to a couple people, or at least one person I noticed. Was that person using the
skate park or was he from somewhere else, or didn't we know?
Helen Merchant: Seewejustdon'tknow. We don't know on that one.
Spizale: Okay. That's all I have.
Helen Merchant: I see, you know the skate park as really a problem at lunch time the most. I
think there's other things going on in that park area that I think right now as far as the kids being
you know verbally harassed in some way, it's primarily the skate park because that's where our
kids play on the equipment over in that area.
Spizale: Okay.
Franks: Commissioner Happe.
Happe: One of the things that we saw in some of the pictures was some damage to surveillance
cameras. Is there a surveillance system at the school right now?
Helen Merchant: No. What I did is, I met with one of the, oh we had a system put in our
building to make sure that it was safe and I said is there something that we can do, because I said
the vandalism you know is pretty bad, especially having two doors kicked in in the back of the
building there. We were, it was just a matter of time we felt before something else was, where
they'd get into the building or something, and he suggested that why don't we put in surveillance
cameras that were fake as a trial. And I think what we did, one of the things that made it not
work for us is that we put them pretty low. And again it was an experiment, so I think we leamed
from that. If we do put in a surveillance camera again, we're going to have to put it at a higher
point and maybe this was just a regular camera, whereas a surveillance camera, a lot of the nicer
ones are pretty hard to break, you know for the most part, so with the new lighting I think it
would be much more effective too. But that's one of the things I think would possibly make a
difference, but again I think you know, we had to just give it a shot and see what we could do and
at that point I wasn't willing to put out a lot of money because our capital budget wasn't that
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
strong, or that, or I should say resourceful. And so we decided to go and just give it a shot. But
again, I did talk to Dave Potts this aftemoon about the surveillance cameras and they're, Roger
Roach has met with me too. He's one of the officers from the police department. I met with him
last year about this and he did even put in a small camera down in that one corner, but at that time
the lighting was pretty poor, but I think we've got some factors in place that may make a
difference in a surveillance camera situation now that we didn't have back even a year ago with
the new lighting and that would make a difference.
Happe: I just wonder had the surveillance system, maybe even with some signing to indicate
there's a surveillance system present would be a great vandalism deterrent. Can I direct a
question to staff at this time too, or just?
Franks: Let's work through questions for our visitors that have presented and then we can.
Happe: As far as one of the issues that was mentioned with regard to some truancy, is that
something that the school district can work within? I mean I'm assuming that there's a truant
officer or something that would be notified to curtail that problem.
Helen Merchant: Right. If we, we're finding not all the kids are from the Chaska school district.
The person that was arrested I think is, well I know is from a different city. With the marijuana
but I really think we do address it when we know that the kids are in the Chaska school district
but it's hard to tell you know what district these kids are from. The skate park does attract kids
from other communities too. So our district does keep track of truancy though and does, you
know if there's a child out there that went to Chan Elementary and I see them out there, you can
be sure I'm going to be calling the middle school to have them deal with that, but again we have
so many kids out there that we just don't recognize.
Happe: Okay. That's all the questions I have. I have a few for staff`that I'll save for later.
Franks: Okay. Commissioner O'Shea.
O'Shea: I have one question Helen, regarding vandalism. You mentioned the amount ofmoney.
Are you, compared to all the other schools in your district, is your school the highest in
vandalism, the amount?
Helen Merchant: I haven't checked that out to see.
O'Shea: Because I'm just trying to correlate you know, is this an isolated significant amount
caused by.
Helen Merchant: Right. Paul, do you know that?
Paul Sleutter: Yeah, I could answer that question and yes, percentage wise Chanhassen
Elementary probably incurs the largest cost of vandalism correction of any of our schools. With
the exception of probably the high school. The high school because of the physical size of that
building. You know dollar for dollar it's more but percentage wise it's probably equal to
Chanhassen Elementary. Or the high school in the district.
Helen Merchant: You take that door, how much was that door to replace that glass, do you
remember?
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Paul Sleutter: Generally a couple hundred dollars at least a time depending on the...
Helen Merchant: Right, and I even gave up on glass. I know I'll put the steel panels in, in the
back because we've had a couple, one of the doors kicked in twice and another one kicked in and
rather than put the glass there, I thought well let's try the steel.
O'Shea: Thanks. That's my only question.
Kelly: I just want to follow up that question. Would it be true that Chan Elementary School was
not among the highest in the pre...
Paul Sleutter: ...District 112 only for about 3 V2 years so I'm not familiar with the experience
prior to that, but I can say in the last 3 V2 years, probably the last 2 years has been, I've noticed a
significant increase at Chan Elementary than prior to...
Atkins: I know that usage in the summer must be a lot higher. Is there a lot of vandalism
occurring during the summer months?
Helen Merchant: Yes there is. It's, right now, the last 2 years, the winter has been pretty good
when the skate park has been closed. It's been real good but in the spring, summer and fall, that's
when we've been having.
Atkins: Summer's there's...would be considerably more in the summer.
Helen Merchant: Right.
Atkins: And I understand that there are cars and kids in the parking lots during school hours. Is
that what I understood you to say?
Helen Merchant: Right.
Atkins: And the police come by and patrol occasionally and kick them out?
Helen Merchant: They do. We call them when we see the kids out there.
Atkins: And that's the north side of the school, the big parking lot by the tennis courts.
Helen Merchant: Right, the north parking lot.
Atkins: Which is a considerable distance from the skate park.
Helen Merchant: Right. And we see them, you know if it's, if they're just talking or something
I'm not going to call the police but when they're doing more of the harassment type things, or
you know playing games out there or something that we will contact the police just because we
want it to be a safe place. But we have had what, 3 bikes stolen in the past year. I think
something like that, or year and a half. That was, I never had that problem prior to this.
Atkins: During school hours.
Helen Merchant: During school hours.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Brenda Petersmeyer: I have asked people, I've been out there during the recess hours too and
there were 2 or 3 times just this past fall, there were people who had ridden there and parked
where we have vehicles come in and drop things off; whether it be milk products or whatever the
case may be, and I've asked them to move their cars because they're not supposed to be parking
in our school parking lot during school hours and I've been verbally harassed by these people.
Franks: In the south end lot?
Brenda Petersmeyer: Yes, right by the skate park.
Rita Klauda: We had a sign that said no skateboard parking, but it was ripped out.
Brenda Petersmeyer: ...on the sidewalks also...
Atkins: I just have one more question. Have you approached the city staff about closing the
gate?
Helen Merchant: Yes I did and was told no.
Atkins: That's all for me.
Franks: Okay, anything else? Okay, well we thank you for coming.
Helen Merchant: Thank you.
Rita Klauda: Thank you very much.
Helen Merchant: We appreciate your support and if you have any other questions, feel free to
call us.
Franks: Well I think what we'll be doing is we might have some comments for staff; and we may
request that staff look into it a little bit more and prepare some alternatives for us, which we can
actually take a look at and possibly implement, or not I guess at our next meeting. Todd, is that
considering the agenda items coming up, is that something we could work on? Have ready for
our next meeting.
Hoffman: Next meeting is just two weeks away so depending on the time, but winter's upon us
so we have plenty of time.
Franks: We have plenty of time to think about it. I guess my feeling too is not to, since we are
running up on the winter season, is to really take some time to consider what would be some
effective interventions and solutions instead of rushing into something and then just experiencing
more frustration that here is another failed attempt that maybe incurred some costs and we might
have, those resources we might have used more effectively some other places so we'll make sure
that as we continue this, that we will involve the school as partners in developing whatever
solutions we think will work.
Helen Merchant: Okay, thank you Rod. Thank you all of you. We really appreciate your
listening to us and any support that's for sure.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Franks: I'm going to ask you to hang around while we grill staff on the subject so, to make sure
you have that information as well. So let's bring this back and we'll allow commission members
to ask some questions of staff; if you have them, and make any comments also. We'll start down
at this end. Paula, do you want to lead o12~
Atkins: Is the skate park actually opened year round or is it closed for a number of months?
Hoffman: Closed once the snow and ice closes it and then it's opened once the snow and ice is
cleared and the pavement is dry.
Atkins: Are there set hours?
Hoffman: 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m., same as all park hours.
Atkins: And the gates are locked?
Hoffman: Gates are not locked.
Atkins: Never locked.
Hoffman: The gates are locked during the winter.
Atkins: Okay, that's all.
Kelly: Is the reason for the second opening more by the school primarily for emergency
vehicles?
Hoffman: Two reasons. Access. General access. Any time you have a facility where you have
it gated or a fenced interior, you want two accesses to it so we have the one on the south and the
one on the north. When ambulances or emergency vehicles do respond and take the trail just
outside of the fire station and drive into the skate park to respond to emergencies, so that's the
emergency access. The access from the south is the stairway or the foot access. The fence was
never originally installed on part of the plans but when the skate park opened the parking started
to spread around the entire perimeter, in the fire department parking lot, the school parking lot
and so we started with that fencing project, and that curtailed that problem at least to a great
extent. I've not heard another parking complaint, at least in quite some time.
Kelly: And the reason that the other gate is closed is to discourage parking at the fire station?
Hoffman: There's a gate at the driveway access into the fire hall. If we opened that up, then they
have very convenient parking that they'll park at the fire station and then walk through that
location. That gate is opened up in the winter for maintenance and it's just there for general
maintenance operations.
Kelly: My only thought is a trade-ofl~ You know is it, what's more important, closing the access
to the playground or limiting parking access at the fire house, and I don't know what. I mean I
know what my knee jerk reaction is, and I'm going to have a child there next fall but, I just
wanted to let everyone aware that there is another gate there that can be used as a second entrance
but there are parking implications about opening that gate. I just wanted to throw that out there.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Franks: Is it necessary to have both openings as emergency, or is it just, that's just standard
design or is it an ordinance or a code or requested emergency vehicle or the fire department that
we have two emergency entrances to an enclosed area like that.
Hoffman: Well the south entrance they can't get a vehicle onto the site. Whereas the other two
entrances they could.
Franks: Okay. And the one question I wasn't quite clear about, and I don't know if there's any
information from the sheriff's department as well but, I was also thinking that the vandalism you
would think would most likely increase when the use of the skate park is at it's highest, which is
during the summer with the extended daylight hours and the kids not in school. So I don't know
if there's any hard information that we have to indicate that that's actually what is happening.
Hoffman: The data that you have there tells the dates of the calls that were made. And when you
talk to the kids that are at the skate park, they'll say that the kids that are hanging onto the north
lot are not associated with the skate park, and I believe there was some retaliatory vandalism from
when the cops started pushing those kids out of that north lot, and they retaliated with at least one
incident of vandalism so, are they associated or not? I don't know, but there is certainly
increased activity at that entire location since the skate park has been put in. And increased
activity leads to some increased incidents of vandalism and problems.
Helen Merchant: Can I just mention too that I haven't turned in all of the vandalism.., see the
police reports but there have been many, many times when we've had like a screen ripped or a,
you know the little things that I haven't tumed in. So when you look at that police reports, it's
kind of... over the past 2 years...
Franks: Have we seen continuing vandalism at the Herman Field Park as well?
Hoffman: This year was pretty good at Herman Field. Lake Ann is our highest incident of
vandalism in the city park system. Lake Susan. We see vandalism in the entire park system.
Franks: When I was looking at those pictures, it's not the only playground equipment where we
see those on a fairly regular basis. Not to diminish but it is something that we have to deal with
system wide. There aren't hundreds of little children present often when this kind of stuff occurs
though at some of the neighborhood parks, but what's happening at Chan Elementary on the
playground there is not unique in any way to what we have to deal with and it's interesting, I was
listening to you saying the last 2 years. It's really kind of bumped up and we have this activity
going on in the north parking lot and I was just wondering, have we had a little transfer of activity
from a park like the Herman Field Park and we've now found a new place. You know there
could be all kinds of trends that could be happening here and addressing the skaters might not just
be the only answer dealing with it.
Helen Merchant: ...multiple, multiple sources of this.
Franks: Okay. If we were to lock that gate as been suggested, like how would the lock be
handled? I know that you talked about doing it for those couple hours during the day. Would
that?
Hoffman: We would just have to change out the lock. It's a standard lock for all city padlocks at
this time so we would change it to an individual lock that then the school have the keys to.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Franks: The keys, okay. Thanks, that's all I had.
O'Shea: I don't have a question. Mine is just a comment of, because we see problems with
language in the summer and issues at the skate park, that, the problem is bigger than locking the
gate that I think taking this winter and really coming up with some solutions to solve the school's
problem as well as the skate park issues with vandalism, harassment and those other issues that, if
we do take this time we really should come up with something that's going to resolve it for all the
areas so I think that's a good suggestion. That we should try to make that our goal, because I
think locking the gate will help but I think the big things that I'm concemed with are the
harassment issues, the safety issues and the vandalism too. But that's my comment. I don't have
any other questions.
Happe: Why does the school pay for damage to the park? If it's a joint partnership between park
system and the school. Is the school bearing all the responsibility for the vandalism that happens?
Hoffman: There's an unwritten agreement at Chan Elementary, there's a written agreement Bluff
Creek Elementary, and basically the agreement, joint partnership or the agreement at Chan
Elementary goes back into the 70's, the beginning of the school, and it was on capital projects
we'll do a 50% cost share and that started back with the original improvements. The tennis courts
and the ballfields and those type of things. Over probably the past 10 or 15 years, when
improvement ideas have come up and the city has approached the school district, the school
district for at least the couple of occurrences has not had the resources to partner with that 50%
cost share. And so the park staff has gone ahead working with the commission and the City
Council and sponsored at least the last 2 projects wholly with city resources. And so that puts us
as a city about $600,000 ahead of recent investments at the school district. And the district has
continued to request that the city partner or pay for or work on a variety of things at the building
or at the school grounds, and my response to that is until we see some equity in that balance
sheet, I can't with good management offer up additional resources from the city. The playground
that you see there, the equipment which is green and tan was purchased 50/50 from the teachers,
or the parent association and the city. The multi-colored, primary colored, yellow, blue, that was
acquired on a grant by the city. Installed originally on the north side of the school and then
moved at the request of the school, with city resources and city personnel to it's present location.
That's the playground that Helen talked about needs to be replaced at some point in the future.
The basketball courts and the back boards that we're talking about, those were all installed before
and painted by the city, so to come back and ask that the city again start paying for additional
improvements and repairs, I just don't believe that the city's in a position to do that until there's
some equity in that balance sheet.
Happe: I agree with taking this on as a project for the commission, because hopefully we can
figure out some ways to help. In the short term however, and when we come back to talk about
this next month I hope that we'll take a look at taking at least a simple recommendation from our
Principal and from our PTO President, that if there is a bridge solution or a short term solution
that may help keep kids out of trouble's way by closing the gate, we should at least take a
preliminary measure to listen to what they're saying, especially if there's another access. I'm
more concerned about the safety of the kids I guess than I am about the parking issue. I think in
the parking lot, it sounds like that may be a little out of the scope of, well we could do that. Todd,
is that more of a law enforcement issue than it would be anything that would be germane to this
Park and Rec Commission?
Hoffman: It's district property. It's really not an area that you would actively manage as a city
body or govemmental organization.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Happe: Okay. So I guess my comments would be, I'd love to see us take a hard look at closing
that gate until we come up with a better solution. And opening up another gate that would allow
the emergency vehicle access. I'd love to see us take a look at the potential in some sort of
partnership or at least reviewing with the school the potential to enhance or create a surveillance
system that may greatly curtail the vandalism. I'd love to make sure that they know that we want
to continue to pursue a partnership with them for the long haul for the replacement of this
equipment, and I want to take steps that we can take, whatever those steps are that the
commission concludes to make sure that they know that they continue to have a willing partner
with us as we both take a look at the 5 to 10 years down the road and the need to replace this
equipment. And lastly there was a request that was in one of the documents that I saw passed for
another quick, easy, short term solution that may have a little bit of an impact and that's in the
relocation of a port-a-potty so that's an issue that I'd like at least looked at as part of their request
and something that may be simple for us to do. So those are my comments.
Spizale: Well, and I've got to bring up maybe a diagram of the way that fence goes is going to
help. I'm not quite sure that I've got it pictured exactly in my mind where those gates are, so
maybe when we do have this other meeting, a detailed diagram would help. And that's all I've
got.
Franks: And along with that diagram Todd, the preferred locations or relocation of the port-a-
potty. The other thing that I'd request is that prior to that meeting that somehow, and we'll allow
it to your creativity, some notification be made at the skate park to the skaters there in case
there's some interest of wanting to come be a part of the dialogue as well. I know that in the past
we've had some participation from the people that are involved at the skate park so I don't know
if it's possible that we could actually do that or post or go out there one day and hand, I don't
know how.
Hoffman: It'd be closed.
Franks: Yeah, it will be closed by then won't it.
Atkins: I had, just my neighbor boy was just here with his dad. They left. Obviously they had
some place to go but I'm sure he'd be interested in giving some input, if you want it from kids.
Franks: If at all possible I'd like to find some way to include the users of that facility in at least
being a part of designing any solution. As much as they would be willing to participate so if we
could find some creative way to involve them as stakeholders, we'd certainly like to hear about
that too so, Jerry put your thinking cap on. Great. And you have the contact person for notifying
if it makes it on our agenda for December at the school?
Hoffman: Yes. I'm at the school almost daily.
Franks: And I do want to say that I was there for pizza on Monday and we did have...change.
Not happy. I got the chicken nuggets because I was told to avoid the other menu choice. The
wisdom of an 8 year old.
Helen Merchant: I just want to mention too, over the years I've worked with Todd and he has
been very supportive of...just part of the problem. We realize that our parking lot may not be
related to that, but I know...
Franks: Great. Thank you. Thanks for coming.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: O'Shea moved, Spizale seconded to approve the Park and
Recreation Commission Minutes dated October 22, 2002 as presented. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0.
ESTABLISHMENT OF THE 2002 PICNIC RESERVATION FEES.
Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks, rest of the commission. On an annual basis the fee
structure, fee schedule is brought up to the commission to approve for the next year. What I'm
requesting at this time is for the commission to review the 2003 picnic fees for Lake, three
locations at Lake Ann, one at Lake Susan. As you can see, we had roughly about 100 reservations
this year totally about $9,500 in revenue. That is up slightly from last year's total. What I would
like to do is keep those fees the same as what they have been, feeling again that we are on the
higher side for fees in relationship to our surrounding communities. So it's staff recommendation
that the Park and Rec Commission recommend approval of the attached fees in 2003.
Franks: Thank you Jerry. I'll just start out with the question, when was the last time, I can't
remember but I should remember, but when was the last time the reservation fees were increased?
Ruegemer: Approximately 3 years ago.
Franks: And have you received actual feedback from groups making reservations about the fees
being high?
Ruegemer: Yes.
Franks: And what's the type of feedback that you get?
Hoffman: You've seen it in the packet I think we have those.
Ruegemer: Yeah, a lot of the evaluations.
Franks: Well the evaluations, when I look at the administrative packet they all look pretty
positive.
Ruegemer: Well if you look at, they're positive but if you look at the numbering system, when
the specific question asked are you satisfied with the fee, a lot of times they're not l's. They're
3's and 4's, with being dissatisfied. A lot of people are kind of middle of the road or thinking
they're a little bit too high and I take a lot of picnic phone calls throughout the course of the year
and for a non-resident business coming in, it's $280 at Lake Ann. A lot of the companies absorb
that but there are some that I hear, and even residents that come in. You want to book a
graduation down at Lake Ann or Lake Susan, you know it's $100 fee approximately for that.
And there is still some belief that the parks should be free. You come down and use it, there
shouldn't be any picnic fees but that's what we're trying to, we certainly take in decent revenue
on those. My thought or my worry is if we raise it too high, that we'll start to drop off in
attendance.
Franks: And that would be my concern too. Always my concern. But what I'm looking at here
in your report is that actually the reservations were up. So I'mjust.
Ruegemer: From 90 something, the year before. Approximately.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Franks: I guess I'm wondering, and I don't know if it exists, if there's some kind of analysis
other than just antidotal evidence about where we've come to that price point of where we are
maximizing profit. You might not be having as many reservations as we might get, but we're
actually making the most amount of money. Sol.
Hoffman: Sad to say but we tend not to be that sophisticated in much of our pricing. As an
organization. And I'm not sure that that's going to change.
Franks: See I know like on me, just because the business I'm in, when I look at those rating
scales right, and you've rated l's and 2's, the goods for all the things, you're looking for that one
thing because you're wanting to maintain some sense of balance and of course when it gets to the
money, everybody's going to feel, if they paid a dollar, since they think parks should be free,
they've paid too much. You know, and so that's going to be the one thing you're going to mark
low if you're going to mark something low.
Hoffman: In comparison to other organizations.
Ruegemer: Well for example I don't think there's any reservation in Chaska that's over $30-$40.
Franks: And what are their number of res, do you have any idea of what's happening there?
Ruegemer: I couldn't comment to that tonight.
Hoffman: The Three Rivers Park District.
Ruegemer: Quite a bit lower I think than that. Quite a bit lower. Eden Prairie is not as high as
we are either.
Franks: That's all I have. Jack.
Spizale: Is there any extra work when they have these events for city employees?
Ruegemer: Certainly. I mean starting with the reservation process over the phone. We do all
that over the phone. There's time that goes into updating the menu signs at each location. On the
weekends, both Saturdays and Sundays we do have park maintenance staffk I mean well, not just
Saturdays and Sundays, 7 days a week, they're cleaned. Garbage emptied, power washed, a lot of
those type of things. Picked up before the picnic people get there so, there's quite a bit of effort
to make sure that those are in proper order for the reserving groups.
Spizale: Is there extra work afterwards too? After they're done. Does it have to be.
Ruegemer: You know that's, you know I don't know about extra work but the next day it's
cleaned again. A lot of the groups are pretty good at making sure the garbage is in the garbage
receptacles and a lot of those type of things, and it's generally picked up. We do charge a $200
damage deposit, just in case, and that typically is enough of a scare factor that the locations are
picked up.
Spizale: Okay, that's all I have.
Happe: What's the split approximately between resident and non-resident in reservations?
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Ruegemer: Probably the highest group is probably, I'm guessing probably the business. There's
a lot ofnon-resident businesses that come in. AlotfromEdina, Bloomington, Eden Prairie. You
know I don't have a split or a hard percentage for you tonight, but we do do a lot of graduation
parties, weddings, birthday parties, and a lot of those type, a lot of family events, reunions.
Happe: We're talking about only $9,500 in revenue so the dollars, they're important dollars but
we're probably not likely to make a huge dent in the total, overall revenue but I guess if there was
a place to raise it up, I might take a look at raising it up amongst the non-resident user fees. So
that's the only comment I have.
O'Shea: Jerry, getting back to Jack's, are you covering your variable costs that are associated
with the extra work to clean these up?
Ruegemer: Well we have seasonal park maintenance workers clean those. A lower hourly rate
than normal staff so we're not paying full time staff`for the most part overtime to clean those. We
have seasonal kids coming in and doing that.
Hoffman: We're making money.
O'Shea: You're making money. You know I also like setting prices with quantifiable data
because you don't want to leave money out there that you can, there is always, you know there is
a break even point of where people will not, not break even but there's a place where you'll start
losing business if you raise it too high and naturally, it'd be interesting to...companies are willing
to pay us. Out there. Would that?
Ruegemer: Systematically, is that fair practice?
O'Shea: Well if you're not going to quantify it, if you're not going to go and do research of
calling people to find out, you know what range are you willing to pay for this type of service
and, because there's always a range that people will say, well you know I won't go up that high,
but I could pay you know $20 more. So if that's not possible for the city to do, yeah it is.
Because if you really feel.
Ruegemer: There's still a lot of the residents that call up with the family reunion or a graduation
party that are very surprised that we have fees.
O'Shea: Yeah, but I'm looking more at the majority of our rentals are the business, right? I was
thinking more on that street. When I look at this, boy I don't know where else you can rent
something, that seems pretty reasonable to me. The prices that are on there. But that's one way
to do your study, your cost study without incurring a lot of expense by having someone call and
really collect data by calling individual people that book.
Happe: I guess I'm leery of trying to find the highest level of threshold of pain that a taxpayer
will pay to use one of these facilities.
O'Shea: Yeah, and I'm not necessarily saying to go to the high end but in the range. The range
that someone might be willing to pay, which we don't even know, we're guessing. Their range
might be you know 140 or 180. So we're not even in.
Ruegemer: I guess we're trying to gauge that comfort zone is by our neighboring communities.
You know again like Chaska's is well below us on resident and non-resident fees.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Franks: As well they should be for those facilities.
O'Shea: Yeah, are they comparable facilities? Comparable?
Ruegemer: I mean, well Eden Prairie's probably more comparable to what we have with Lake
Riley and some of those. They are I believe also lower.
Hoffman: We have no objection to raising them so, that's not a problem.
Franks: Go ahead and finish up.
O'Shea: No, I just would not like to see a fee stay at something where you could really elevate it
without making anybody, losing business and keep growing. That would be my only concem.
Setting a price with some knowledge of knowing what the market would bear, but again not
going to the high end but certainly being competitive in this area that they're willing to pay.
Hoffman: Well we are at the high end already.
O'Shea: Well.
Hoffman: Of the prices in the area.
O'Shea: In the area but maybe not the people that are renting from you. You know if that's the
case, if you're already at the high end and they're still coming to you, you know unless these
other, because I think too, I remember correctly, you're rented out most of the summer, the peak
times aren't you?
Ruegemer: Many times we are on both Saturdays and Sundays at the covered pavilions.
O'Shea: So you're really not, you don't have any more room to rent in the peak, right? You're
happy with the rental as it is?
Ruegemer: It could always, I mean it's not booked every, but for the most part it is, but the non-
covered areas are pretty non-existent.
O'Shea: Okay, so you're not feeling you're losing much business right now because of the
prices?
Ruegemer: You know I think to a certain degree that may be true in some cases. Once people
get the prices they choose to maybe go somewhere else.
O'Shea: The businesses do.
Ruegemer: Business or residents or whoever. People that just shop around for price.
Franks: But I guess what, if I can jump in. Amy's maybe suggesting that weekend's going to
book up anyway. Maybe somebody might walk but somebody else is going to take it. It sounds
like most of those Saturdays and Sundays are booked at the covered pavilions.
O'Shea: At the higher rate than your neighboring communities. So so far, what I'm getting at is
so far it doesn't seem to have deterred too much of your business even though you're higher, so
17
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
they must think that Chanhassen has some pretty nice facilities that they're willing to pay more
than they do in Eden Prairie, which is a compliment to the city that we don't know, we're
guessing that, where is that level that they're willing to pay for these amenities.
Franks: So it might be at the, ifI can jump in. It might be at our range, as the city might be at the
higher end of neighboring cities but it might be at the low end of what the company's budgeted
range is, is that?
O'Shea: Right. And for the amenities that we're providing. That's all I have.
Franks: Are we turning people away on weekends? Are you having like multiple requests?
Ruegemer: Certainly. Depending on if there's certain weekends, certainly.
Franks: Have we considered having a tiered pricing structure? I guess what I'm getting at is if
we have a demand time and the market is you know, the supply and demand. We have a lower
supply of weekends and a higher demand, would it be possible to charge more on weekends.
Charge less on weekdays and try to shift people around and increase the total number of
bookings, because some people might say I'm not going to do it on a Saturday, but I'm going to
do it on this Thursday and we'll make it work because we're going to get a better deal. And then
freeing up that weekend for someone who's willing to pay a little more and really look at. Now I
know we're nickel and diming you, I know we are because I agree with Dave that you know that
it's not like a ton of revenue we're talking about here but.
Ruegemer: Certainly if the commission wishes to do that we certainly can make that work. We
just need to take a look for our computer software as well as for the reservations schedule and
how that relates to multiple fees like that for accounting purposes. But we certainly can
investigate that.
Hoffman: $10,000 is a significant amount of revenue in our system.
Franks: Yeah, but I mean after the incidental costs, after the indirect costs we take out of it.
Hoffman: Anywhere we have revenue, $10,000, $15,000, $20,000, those are, you know we want
10, 15, 20 of those programs, those type of events at $10,000 are starting to add up.
Happe: I'm not saying the revenue's insignificant. I'm just saying that the percentage gained on
an increase in the fees if we raise the fees by an arbitrary $10. We should probably take a look at
what that total dollar amount, what impact that would have because it may be $500 or $1,000 is
what we're talking about.
Franks: I'd like to have my cake and eat it too. I'd like to increase the number of bookings and
increase the amounts that we can gain from this, not just from the extra amount from having more
bookings. But, and I think the approach to do that is really look at where's our highest demand
and what is the market willing to bear for that demand, and then possibly shifting people who are
unwilling to pay that to a time that's more conducive to that. Because there's both kinds of
people that are out there. People that are looking for a date and they're going to pay almost
whatever to get what they want, and people who are looking for a bargain. And it might be
possible to appeal to both of them.
Hoffman: Rod, do you have a number or percentage drop in mind for those weekdays?
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Franks: You know I really don't right off hand. In fact the idea is forming as we were talking
today, but when you mentioned the bookings on the weekends and then wondering if you could
have other people looking to book on weekends too, you know and already being booked, like
that's the demand time so that might demand a higher value.
Hoffman: Probably at 30 to 40 percent discount on weekday.
Franks: Probably something like that. I mean it's not being used right now. I mean they're not
being booked heavily on weekdays anyway. So if you look at and you see the same price, I'd be,
I'd hold out for a weekend too, you know. And then I'm capturing a weekend that somebody
might be willing to pay more.
Hoffman: Do some companies book weekdays?
Ruegemer: Certainly. During the days.
Hoffman: Currently so you'd be losing some cash there.
Franks: Right.
Ruegemer: Companies typically go Thursday-Friday's during the day or 4:00 to dark.
Franks: Well I'm certainly willing to go ahead and approve the fee structure for this year, but I
would really, I agree with Commissioner O'Shea that I think we need to start looking a little bit
more scientifically at all these things. We've had this great little city of 10,000 people for a long
time and we've operated well on antidotal evidence and, but we're getting bigger and we are
needing to get more sophisticated as well. One of the solutions that I might have to consider is
really adding on a new question on the questionnaire. Something like, it is expected as our costs
increase that reservation fees will increase in the next year. How much would you be willing to
pay, or something like that that is at least to get, it lacks face validity I know but at least
something to gauge, you know what are, would a 10% increase fit with your companies budget or
your organization's budget for next year? Something.
Happe: Wouldn't you assume you're going to run 100% negative on that though.
Franks: Well, but how negative are you going to run? You know is it going to be all the way to
the end or are we going to be in the 2 or 3. I guess that lacks some face validity, but at least it's
something. Tom?
Kelly: I like the tiered pricing approach. Monday through Thursday one price, which I think, I
don't even know ifI would agree to reduce the price Monday through Thursday. I would almost.
Franks: Look at increasing.
Kelly: We want to, right. Maintain it as it is Monday through Thursday and then maybe 20%
increase, I don't know on Friday through Sunday because if it's supply and demand, and one
person says no for Saturday and there's someone else ready to take that slot, then we don't lose.
We still come out ahead so, I mean I think tiered structure is a common pricing practice. I don't
know if it is for parks but for hotels and all that stuff, you do see some tiered pricing.
Franks: Okay.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Atkins: I'm going to leave the resident fees alone. Because I think they're highly reasonable for
groups. I'd like to think that they wouldn't change, but I think the tier thing is very well worth
exploring too. Makes sense to me.
Franks: We need to take some action, so any other questions for staff? We need to take some
action today. One course would be to of course approve the recommendations of the fee structure
that's been proposed for the 2003 season and really direct staff to develop and altemative for the
2004 season, taking into account the recommendations we have tonight about development of the
tiered approach to pricing. The other one would be, as I see it, is to implementing that in some
form for the 2003 season so I don't know if there's any discussion on the commission as far as
any comments.
Kelly: I thought there may have been a software issue with tiered pricing.
Ruegemer: That could probably be worked out...
Happe: Rod, I do like your idea of a tiered system to encourage additional usage of the facilities
that are not fully used during the week. Trying to incentivize the additional revenue creation if
possible. I don't know what we'll lose Jerry from the customers that will come back that are
currently supporting it in the weeks. I would however like to see that as incremental revenue and
not try to go to the highest common denominator by increasing the weekend rental rates, and
keeping those weekday rates the same. I think in the spirit of trying to generate additional use of
the facilities, the best answer is to do exactly as you've proposed in terms of trying to stimulate
additional use of and additional rental of those facilities, but I'm not in favor of raising the rates
to try to find the highest common denominator for our residents.
Franks: This year.
Happe: This year.
Franks: We haven't raised rates in about 3 years so the reality is that we're going to have to raise
rates probably in the next couple years for sure.
Ruegemer: Prior to that we did approximately 10% a year for many years.
Happe: I think a question that Amy asked, we're covering our operational expenses with the
revenue that we have coming in, so we're not funding or supporting a program that currently is in
the deficit. Is that correct?
Franks: Well my understanding is we're making money.
Happe: Right. So we're making money. We're not spending to keep this program alive, in it's
current state with these current fees and the current reservations, it's a profit generating vehicle
for the city. So to look at trying to enhance that profit, I'd love to see this stay affordable for our
residents.
Spizale: I think a 10% increase, after not increasing it for 3 years, wouldn't be much of an
increase. I mean cost of living goes up. Your costs go up. My costs go up. I don't think
anybody would balk at 10%. Especially since it hasn't been raised for 3 years. That's my
feeling.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Happe: I think you're right Jack. I don't know that they would balk at it. In fact I bet our
reservation rates stay strong. I just don't, we don't have to charge the maximum amount for
services that we can get by with. I would love to figure out a way to keep it as affordable as we
possibly can. We have residents that love to use these facilities, and I don't want to increase their
costs by $10 just because I can.
Franks: Now don't confuse me commissioners. That's so unlike you. Just when I think I have it
figured you throw me a curve. It seems as though if we're not capturing potential revenue, we're
actually subsidizing through tax dollars the loss of that revenue.
Happe: I don't think so because it's a revenue, a positive...
Franks: ...on how you want to look at it.
Happe: Rod, if it was a revenue, negative service, I'd agree with what you just said. We're
making money so it's not in effect costing taxpayers money. It's generating positive cashflow.
Franks: Well it is costing their money if in fact we're capturing all of the available money.
Happe: I understand your point.
Franks: Because then that's money that was not counted as revenue that we are spending from
some other, you see that's what I'm saying.
Happe: It's somewhat of a circular argument but I see where you're going.
Franks: Right, there's a little...
O'Shea: Dave when you say resident, do you mean, are you meaning or the Chanhassen business?
Happe: I mean resident as in Dave Happe wanting to secure it for my family reunion. Again I
don't, I'm just differentiating between resident and resident business. I'm not as adamant about
not raising the non-resident user fees because they've been paid to help us build these facilities.
But the residents either.., when they moved into the neighborhood and there was a park and trail
fee or whatever the fees were that were raised to build these facilities. I think the residents have
already chipped in and I just hate to ask them for another $10 bill out of their pocket.
Franks: I'd like to propose an idea more along the lines of an experiment to see if we're on the
right track or not, because really we don't have anything, as I've said before, other than antidotal
evidence to base what we're going on, and that concerns me. But I'm wondering if we couldn't
adopt an approach where for 2003, for the Friday through, or Saturday through Sunday, or Friday
through Sunday reservations, we bump them up by 10% and leaving other reservations at the
current proposed 2003 rate. And seeing what the response is, and if it tums out that at the end of
the year. Doable Jerry?
Ruegemer: We can do anything you wish Commissioner Franks. We can make that happen.
O'Shea: Can I ask one more question?
Franks: Go right ahead Amy.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
O'Shea: Jerry, I'm focusing more on the business ones. How do you set Chanhassen business is
$45 for Lake Ann for the one and then it's $130 so there's quite a spread there. And then how,
right on that same page below for the other part of Lake Ann, it's closer to the 50% discount. The
130 to 280. How did you, how do you derive the difference?
Ruegemer: The first one you're looking at is the lakeside. That's a non-covered area. And the,
you know these fees were established back from past commissions. I think back when they
established these it was more kind of what the threshold of pain is, more so than any scientific
formula. If that's what your question is.
O'Shea: I was just wondering how you came up with the different spread between the, you know
I thought like we'd have 50% discount for Chanhassen businesses. For example across the board
but I was trying to figure out how those prices were set and you answered it. It was kind of just
thrown out without any guidelines, is that right? Okay.
Franks: I want to put you on the spot again, but do you think that these prices make sense?
Ruegemer: Why don't they make sense?
Franks: Well I mean, if what you're saying is correct, and I've been a part of this commission for
a while but if this is all just arbitrary, and you know it was done at the threshold of pain, are we at
a point now, and maybe that's what a lot of the struggle is about here is we need to maybe not for
2003, but really take a pretty solid look at the whole fees that are charged, generally speaking, to
come up with the structure you know, because I'm sure that it's occurred. If the business people
are thinking about it, they looked at this whole sheet like this, the same question would occur.
What's the deal with that?
Happe: Stafl~s recommendation that we adopt these fees? And what I would like, Rod I know
there's a motion on the table.
Franks: There is no motion on the table.
Happe: Oh I'm sorry, I thought there was a motion on the table. What I would like to do is
instead of hastily raising rates arbitrarily, go with staffs recommendation while we continue to
study some of the neighboring. I know we haven't seen any hard data that says raise them or
don't raise them. We have staffs recommendation, after they've spent more time than we have
studying it, to go with these rates. What I would propose is that we go with staff's
recommendation and meanwhile we have time to review 2004 and beyond. I don't see the need
because of a profit loss, to raise the rates without having further study and further discussion on
it.
Franks: Okay. Well I'm willing to accept any motions that any commissioners wish to propose
SO.
Hoffman: You have an option of tabling this for 2 weeks.
Franks: You know.
Happe: We should roll with something.
Franks: What I'd like to do Todd is I understand that but I'd like to see if we're not at a point
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
where we can take some action, if we're unable to reach any kind of consensus or develop a
motion that's acceptable, then we should consider tabling it.
Kelly: I move to maintain the rates, the current proposed rates for Monday through Friday and
then increase the rates 10% on Saturday and Sunday for the year 2003.
Franks: There is that motion. Is there a second?
Spizale: I'll second that.
Franks: Okay, it's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion as
proposed? Todd.
Hoffman: If we go to 10% and then we find next year that we actually want a large, much larger
price variation, say 20 or 30%, then we're starting to tell people well this year your price gap was
10%, but we think we can go to 20 or 30. So I don't know if we're, granted many folks, these
people return.
Ruegemer: Many do.
Hoffman: Jerry takes all these calls and deals with all these people and he spends a good amount
of time on the phone with these people and so I just want to make sure if we're going to increase
rates, that's not a problem but let's do it consistently. So that 10% is going to end up to be what,
20 bucks. Or we'll round them up, and perhaps that's enough. We wouldn't go any higher.
O'Shea: Well you'd have your feedback. Jerry would have some feedback to base it on with the
negative comments or lack of booking. It'd be a way to at least have some quantifiable data.
Hoffman: I don't disagree with the concept. Perhaps the percentage.
O'Shea: I know what you're saying too is.
Kelly: It's too low? The percentage is too low?
O'Shea: We don't know.
Kelly: We don't know.
Spizale: I think it's a good start.
Franks: You obviously have more, both of you have more experience on this than we do but, you
know what, the process for determining what that percentage would be.
Hoffman: It's a guesstimate.
Franks: It's a guesstimate, right. Educated guesstimate hopefully. Well I'm wondering if we
couldn't use the year 2003 as a data gathering year. I mean I think there's some consensus that
we like the idea of a tiered, the free structure as a way to capture any revenue that might be lost
without alienating the repeat users or residents obviously and keeping it as affordable.
Affordable doesn't mean that the rates might not go up though, so it's what people are willing to
afford so.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Hoffman: And those tiers were across the board, residents, non-residents?
Ruegemer: 10%.
Kelly: There's an opportunity to test out the price and lasticity of our fees. I don't know.
Franks: Well we do have, is there any further discussion on the motion?
Kelly: The only group I would hesitate to raise fees on is non-profit seniors. I don't know if that,
because I know right now they're getting a 20% discount but I don't know if that makes.
Hoffman: 25.
Kelly: 25% discount. I don't know if that makes things too complicated. 25, I don't know.
Franks: I think Todd brings up a good point. You bring up another one that this is, we might not
just be ready to make all the decisions that would be necessary at this time to develop, because do
we do it with seniors or not the seniors? Do we do it with residents or not? With resident
businesses or non-resident businesses? Any further discussion on the motion? All those in favor
of the motion. Seeing none, we'll go ahead and take a vote.
Kelly moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission maintain the
current group picnic reservation fees for Monday through Friday and increase the rates
10% on Saturday and Sunday for the year 2003. Kelly, Franks and Spizale voted in favor,
O'Shea, Happe, and Atkins voted in opposition. The motion was tied with a 3-3 vote.
Franks: Can I see the opposed? We have 3-3. In the event of a tie, this has never happened to
me. The motion fails. Thanks for giving it a try. Appreciate it. I'm wondering if Jerry, if there
couldn't be some more compulsive record keeping. How many people are actually looking for
this Saturday, this Saturday, that. How many calls did you get on that?
Ruegemer: I receive many phone calls throughout the course of the week. I mean from this point
forward I certainly could have a log of sorts if people are looking for multiple listings or multiple
requests for certain weekends, we can certainly do that.
Franks: Is it necessary that this be approved prior to January of 20037
Ruegemer: I believe it is. After the first of the year people start to kind of think towards that
process of reserving.
O'Shea: Can I, are we still able to throw things out?
Franks: Yeah, go ahead.
O'Shea: Jerry, because you have such a good working relationship with these people, what if you
called 5 of your, the people that have booked every year and said, you do it in a way that naturally
they're going to say well no, we'd like them to lower the price instead of raise it, but if you have
a good working relationship and say you know we don't want to lose your business but we really
do, we haven't raised our prices in 3 years. I just want to hear from you what you think is fair
because we really don't want to lose you as a customer, but and throw out a price range like give
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
them 3 different price ranges. And don't even give them the old price. I probably don't even
remember what they paid anyway, and just give them 3 different price ranges of, would you still
be able to, would your company still one, be able to afford using our facility. And would you
book with us at these rates. And just feel them out. Call some long standing customers and then
come back on December.
Ruegemer: Both resident and business?
O'Shea: Sure, and I'm just, I'm more focusing on the business end of it. The Chanhassen
business and then the non-Chanhassen business. Just call 4 or 5 of them in each category of those
two.
Franks: I hope you're not going on vacation in the next couple weeks, because where this is
headed is we're going to table this until the December meeting and we're going to direct you to
develop what you consider to be a reasonable plan for implementing a tiered reservation system
considering the respective prices for the businesses and for weekends and how you're going to
define that weekend, either Saturday-Sunday or Friday through Sunday.
Ruegemer: And my probably idea right now, talking to people, I would probably be 90 to 100
percent... 10 to 15% increase, whatever. 5 to 10. I would imagine that would be absorbed by the
company.
Spizale: I have one comment to make too. All these businesses have raised their prices in 3
years. You can bet on it. I can't see where it'd be an undue, I can't see where it'd be a problem
raising a fee for the businesses at least 10%. That's really nothing.
Kelly: This may be an apples to oranges comparison but you know if raising the fees of
businesses 10 to 15% means that we can flood an additional ice rink. I'm being serious though.
If we can take money here in something that I think is an acceptable approach to gain some
revenue and move it to flooding additional neighborhood parks, or something you know that
might be a benefit to at least part of the community. I think that's a fair reallocation of our
revenue and what comes in and where it goes. I look at this as we always seem to try to spend
money, I think this is an opportunity to gain a little revenue that we can apply to some of the
other areas where we are lacking funds.
Franks: So there's some consensus, I hope you're picking up on it. Okay?
Hoffman: My response to Commissioner Kelly is that, I know the council for one is going to say
any increase revenue that you make is great, but it's going to off'set current costs. No doubt about
it.
Kelly: Okay, sorry.
Hoffman: At the current conversation with budget. They want us to, in fact they talked about the
committee that you're working on on the revenue at last night's budget meeting, and today I was
directed to formalize a brainstorming session among selected staff members to talk about how
park and recreation can raise revenues across the board. So this is one way that we can raise
revenues and we'll stick it right into the formula and this goes from a program orchestrations to
rec center increases to new forms of revenue. One thing, we always have to be cognizant of in
our business is that we haven't talked about the other aspect of company picnics tonight is that,
we've all attended them and they are a wonderful form of recreation that we want to continue to
25
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
foster. And so we tend, when we get into these budget discussions we tend to focus on the cash
and there's a whole other reason why we're in business as an organization, as a park and rec
commission.
Franks: I want to make clear, my goal is to increase the number of bookings, okay. And if
there's a way that we can set up a pricing structure to do that by providing alternatives that appear
to be more acceptable to the more sophisticating marking and make more money, all power to us
for that.
Happe: Rod as you know too, in some cases, I'm in the hard goods industry and some cases
when we lower the price, we sell more product. And I think in terms of those weekday lack of
bookings, we may find that we can increase the revenues by making those off days more
attractive. Not necessarily raising the price of that VCR just to garner more revenue on that one
individual transaction.
Franks: And I'm suggesting we don't have quite the information available to us to make that
decision because as you're saying, there's businesses that are paying full rate to have their picnic
on Friday aftemoon or whatever, so I mean that's something for you guys to consider. I think it'd
be great if you could come back with at least a pretty good idea that we could kick around in a
more concrete fashion for the December meeting. So I'm wondering if there's a commissioner
who'd be willing to entertain a motion to table this item until our December meeting and to
further direct staff to come back with what their ideas are and how to implement, what we're
calling a tiered pricing schedule for park reservations and to, also indicating what percentage
increases, if any and to what populations those increases would be targeted. Help me out.
Happe: A motion, is that this point be move to the December meeting and that as Rod has
articulated, that staff`prepare some summary reports on a way to implement a tiered system, along
with some directed or targeted fees for the various user groups and help us determine a way to use
this system to generate more bookings and generate additional revenue.
Franks: This has been moved. Is there a second?
O'Shea: I second.
Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion before us? Seeing
none we'll move it to a vote then.
Happe moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table action on
the 2003 group picnic reservation fees to the December meeting. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0.
Hoffman: We'll get this to marketing first thing tomorrow.
2002/2003 ICE SKATING PROGRAM.
Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks. We did, as you all know, discussed this at length at the
October meeting. Since then we certainly have gotten calls from Pheasant Hills. Mr. Koltes is
here again tonight. Also we have had increased phone calls from the Minnewashta Heights
neighborhood as well, stating support that they would like to see their rink be flooded and
operated again for this year. I did pass out another e-mail just from last Friday from Ms.
Schaeffer, and then also I had another phone call from a Debbie Bach today from the
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Minnewashta Heights. I don't have that in the form of an e-mail. Just to, I wanted to get it on
record that she did call and request that the rink be flooded and operated again for this year. We
had kind of talked about a number of different things. Certainly the feeling or the direction I got
from the commission, it seemed last, at last October meeting, it seemed like the sentiment on the
commission was to, they were in favor of or looking at least flooding the rinks for this coming
winter. Coming up with a new kind of data collection kind of a system, and then put the
neighborhood in question on notice so to speak and have sort of a notification letter that goes out
stating that we're seriously looking at this and we need to see some increased activity or your rink
may be in jeopardy during the 2004/2005. 03-04 season I guess it would be. Going into that we
certainly had talked about that and I guess, talking to a lot of different agencies, park and rec
agencies, there wasn't really a perfect system out there, or a system in many cases to collect data
on non-attendant rinks. You know a lot of people don't keep those types of records and a lot of
people don't keep attendance records at places that they attend. So looking at our system, it may
not be perfect but it is a system to collect numbers. Another way that we certainly have talked
about is maybe we should hire somebody for the winter time to go out at various and periodic
times throughout the course of the year at these different rinks. You know maybe 4, 5, 6 times a
week, at different times to collect that sort of data that I guess we're trying to collect and making
decisions on with that, so I guess what we're trying to do now is really kind of make that decision
I guess which way we're going to go. Certainly seen before that the commission is interested in
maintaining or preserving those neighborhood rinks. Just coming up and staff is certainly
interested in hearing what the commission has to say or if there's different ways of collecting and
have thought about it since the last time. We're certainly interested in entertaining that.
Franks: Thankyou Jerry. WhatI'dliketodoisjusttakeanyveryquickquestionsfor Jerryfrom
the commission.
Happe: So the main reason we held it over was to see if there was a new measurement stick or a
new way to track performance against the ultimatum essentially that we're talking about...
neighborhoods and there wasn't any different way that staff has come up with to help us figure
out if our test is going to be successful or not.
Hoffman: Other than what you proposed.
Franks: Anything else? Is there anyone in the audience wishing to address the commission on
this topic? Come on up. And we appreciate waiting through that.
Ted Koltes: No, not at all. I enjoyed it.
Franks: Would you state your name and your address for the record please.
Ted Koltes: My name is Ted Koltes at 1731 Wood Duck Circle. That's relative to the Pheasant
Hills Park that's been kind of the key to this discussion. Since my last attending this meeting I've
had a chance to talk with my neighbors more and kind of broaden out a little bit and it's really
only 4 to 5 the position as you've received and continuing the phone calls. The more I think
about this, it's not going to save money not to flood the parks. I mean it's, as I understand it, it's
budgeted to do this. It would just reallocated to another area. So in terms of X's and O's, as it
were, it's not safe revenue, and I levy that, I weigh that out against those that have committed to
me, and my efforts so I'm not making myself to be the fool in coming here and laying on the line
that yes, this particular park is going to get used. The one, and this is my first year at our address
here. We just moved in August. My question is, as I understand it there aren't lights. Is that,
okay. So on weekdays you're going to have Monday to Friday where the majority of the parents
27
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
aren't getting home til after dark. And my concern, based on this testing is that you know I
myself, I'm not going to be home before it gets dark Monday through Friday, so if it's measured
based on usage Monday to Friday, I can't contribute to it's usage during those times. Now on the
weekends I can contribute like all get out, and fairly intend to do so, but for lack of a better
system, I don't have any suggestions as far as that goes. The only thing I have to rely on are the
conversations of the neighbors that I've had and the feedback that I've received from them and
that now based on this being brought to the forefront is coming out from the neighborhood and
that is yes, they want it. They feel that they'll use it. It's important to them. It was important to
me and as I understand a number of other people in this room as they were growing up. Whether
it's for themselves or for the kids and I would just ask because it's not going to be a direct
correlation to savings to the city, that we at least be given the chance to demonstrate that very
usage this winter again. I guess I don't have more to say. I want to skate. It's cold out. If you're
not skating, winter is useless. You know we don't have big hills. We can't ski. We've got to
skate so I hope we can do that at Pheasant Hills Park. Thank you for your time. IfI stay here, do
you have questions?
Hoffman: Just to maintain the accuracy of our conversation when we talk about cost. It would be
a reallocation of regular hours that, if you take a look at 2001 through 2002, we have regular time
of 6,200 and overtime of 4,500 so there would be a cost savings in those overtime hours which is
not 50% but a good percentage of the money that would, we use those overtime hours because
we're flooding around the clock. During the cold periods of the day.
Franks: Is there any questions?
Happe: On the week nights will you travel and use the city ice facilities with the lights and the
warming houses?
Ted Koltes: Based on my particular schedule, I can't speak of that of my neighbors but based on
my schedule I generally don't get home til 7:00-8:00. So where I would use it would be, you
know and conversely I am home generally til noon or so during the weekdays so I guess, backing
into what I was saying before, I would have time early on in the days to use it. But I mean I'm
going to be out there like a spotter with my binoculars looking for the sky with my skates in hand
so I can be out there when he's there. But yeah, I mean it's really, it's been kind of neat to see the
interest in the neighborhood and I, so much has changed from being a kid, when I was a kid and
I'm not even that old, to now being a kid today. And this is in my mind, and I know I'm partial
because of all those years of skating and playing hockey but I mean this, I look back on my, on
being a kid and this was kind of one of the purest forms of being a kid you know for me. You
know it's exercise. It's not sitting in front of a TV playing video games. All the people that I've
spoken with are easily within walking distance, and to bring that much further away, I wouldn't
hope for that. But yeah, I'm out there in the momings.
Franks: So no light.
Ted Koltes: Light, say 11:00 when I've got to take my little man home and get ready for work
myself. But yeah the moming times would be great. And I mean from a, you know my little
girl's at school and I was very interested in this conversation earlier about the Chan Elementary
because that affects me directly but while my little girl's at school I'm thinking of myself and I
know that this is self serving of my interest but boy this is great time for me and my 4 year old
son to be out there playing and I just very much look forward to that time. And yes, it would be
more difficult for me obviously to get in a car and go somewhere else. And I can't speak for the
rest of my neighbors. I can't speak for their situations.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Franks: Okay. Any other questions for Mr. Koltes? Thanks again.
Ted Koltes: Thank you.
Franks: Let's bring this back to the commission and let's hear what your comments are.
Atkins: Since we're reconsidering it, I'm looking at it in a different light and thinking perhaps
just eliminating 5 or 6 of the parks. The rinks might be a good idea. Specifically Sunset,
Chanhassen Hills, Rice Marsh, Meadow Green and Carver Beach. Carver Beach and Meadow
Green are both quite close to City Center. Chanhassen Hills, from what I heard gets very little
use. And Rice Marsh and Sunset, I can't speak of because I don't know for sure where they are
SO.
Franks: So what you're advocating is to keep the pleasure rinks at Minnewashta Heights and
Pheasant Hills?
Atkins: Yes.
Franks: Paula, anything else?
Atkins: No.
Franks: Commissioner Kelly.
Kelly: I am in favor of, I mean of keeping the rinks open. I would hate to, I mean the
Minnewashta Heights and Pheasant Hills, those are the only two rinks that people have come
forward with in the last few weeks and voiced opinions?
Ruegemer: Yeah, I think I've also had a call from Rice Marsh.
Kelly: I think I'm in favor of keeping them open for a year. Sending out letters to all the
surrounding neighborhoods explaining that you know, without a lot of use this year, it may be
closed the next year. I don't see the need to hire someone to go and, go to these unlighted ones
and monitor the uses. I think if the system that we're using is as good or better than any other
system that park systems in the area are using, we'd have to probably stick with that but to your
point, let's not measure them on a Wednesday morning. Let's look at things on a Sunday
morning or Monday morning just to get a better reading as to how these rinks are used during the
potential peak times as opposed to the potential down times.
Hoffman: We can split that classification for you so we'll simply have it, you know obviously
Monday mornings are going to be the time where's going to be some heavy use, but these are, if
you look at the statistics that you have, they're being flooded on weekends, on Mondays, on
Thursdays and there are still rinks, whether they're flooded on a Sunday or a Thursday, just do
not see the use and it's not recorded here. It's not that we're going to, if it's being used heavily
on a weekend, it's going to get recorded.
Ted Koltes: And again Todd, can I say something else? That's from 2 years ago?
Hoffman: Yes.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Ted Koltes: I want to reiterate the turnover at least in our neighborhood in growth, there's a lot of
kids.., that are skating age.
Ruegemer: I also did receive that same type of comments from Minnewashta Heights
neighborhood that there was turnover in the neighborhood. Kids were getting older. There's new
people in the neighborhood so some residents of the Minnewashta Heights did kind of echo Ted's
comments.
Franks: Okay. Tom, anything else?
Kelly: No.
Franks: Are you suggesting then to flood all of the pleasure rinks?
Kelly: I guess I'm going to turn it back. Is that fair? Is it fair to isolate, not isolate but is it fair to
only flood the two ones where there's been a lot of support for keeping it open or maybe... I
guess at a minimum I would like to see Minnewashta Heights and Pheasant Hills open, but I'd be,
I guess I'd be more comfortable with the decision of having all them open to give all the
neighborhoods opportunity this year to skate. I'm through, thanks.
Franks: Commissioner O'Shea.
O'Shea: My feelings are the same as what we passed last meeting, other than, and I'm back to
quantifiable data. I hate to see expense added to this program to hiring. I don't know if it would
be enough of us or other people that would volunteer to pick dates, if that makes sense, and times
of the day to go and, I certainly would be willing to take these 7-8 questions and go at an
appropriate time of what we think would be heavily used times, and go around and mark it
instead of having that incur the fee of hiring somebody. So we could look at the volunteer end of
it from this commission and other avenues that we might have. But the other thing we do have is,
you know the neighborhoods are changing but we have access to the demographics of these
neighborhoods. There is a certain age that's going to be using these parks. The kids, that if we
pulled up that demographic study and looked at which parks are growing out of the age that
typically uses this type of amenity, that would help us too at the next time that we evaluate so
where I stand is, one, I don't think we should add a fee of hiring somebody if we could get
enough volunteers to pick times that make sense. We should get it gathered that way. Leave
them open like we thought. Let the neighborhoods know that we're thinking, what we're
thinking and if the usage isn't up, we're going to have to eliminate that from the following winter.
So that's what I'd do. Is to, I mean bring in the demographics along when we're making this
decision. These neighborhoods are growing up and they've changed but these neighborhoods
have had new people move in that now have younger kids, plus the data we've collected this
winter. That's where I'm at.
Franks: Dave.
Happe: I don't think we'd be hiring somebody specially to do the monitoring. I believe it's the
people that are already going to be at the rinks flooding the rinks that do the actual record
keeping, correct?
Hoffman: There's two different methods. We can always do the person in the flood truck, but if
we want to count head counts when there's actual people there, then they go during a different
time because we flood after hours. For the most part.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Happe: Okay. If there's a motion raised to keep Pheasant Hills and Minnewashta Heights, and
go with stafl~s recommendation on the elimination of the rest, I would vote in favor of that
because I think it's an interesting compromise. We could use 2003 then really again as a data
collection year against that type of a move to determine if there were increases in the community
parks, just to further study that but I would be in support of that as a motion. I think Tom you
mentioned your concern for not only discriminate against a few, but right now in my perception,
we're discriminating against the neighborhoods that don't have this as an amenity offered to
them. Herman Field, Curry Farms Park, Highover, Longacres, Pulte, Walnut Grove, Greenwood
Shores, Kerber Pond, Stone Creek, Bluff Creek Estates, Lake Susan Hills East, Mission Hills,
Bandimere/Springfield, Lake Riley South, and Hesse Farm are several of the major
neighborhoods that don't have this same taxpayer subsidized service provided to their
neighborhoods, so I think under equal services I think your concem is probably good but it's,
there's a whole lot more than these 7 neighborhoods that are affected by paying taxes for these
facilities and not actually having them in their approximate area. So that being said, the motion
that I would prefer is to go with staff recommendation, if the motion is raised to do a partial in
keeping Pheasant Hills and Minnewashta Heights because of their citizen activist and to be able
to use that as a measurement tool for the elimination of parts of this program. Then I would vote
in favor of that motion as well.
Franks: Okay, thank you. Commissioner Spizale.
Spizale: Okay, my feeling is, I feel we should, this year, this winter we should flood the same
rinks that we did last year. I don't think we should change it this year. Take a look at the data
after this year and then make that decision. That's my feeling.
Franks: Okay. I think I mentioned this the last time. I've the unfortunate benefit of being
through this a number of times and my personal feeling is, it's going to be very difficult without
spending money, which I don't believe we have on this to collect better data than what we've got.
I was initially in favor of stafCs recommendation to close the listed pleasure rinks. But I'm also
understanding that when you show up for dinner, you usually get to eat and the Pheasant Hills
neighborhood, correct?
Ted Koltes: Shown up for dinner, right?
Franks: They've shown up for dinner. And to me that's a little bit of putting your money where
your mouth is, in a sense, ifI can work in some other cliches during my monologue I will try.
Ted Koltes: I'm already a citizen activist so...
Franks: But that level of commitment tells me, I mean that they're willing to show up and come
and send their e-mails and make the phone calls and actually come to these meetings, indicates
that there certainly is probably some behavior and numbers that are going to follow hopefully the
use. So I would personally be in favor of maintaining the Pheasant Hills rink and deleting the
other listed pleasure rinks from the earlier recommendations of staff~ And at the same time,
directing the flooding crews to, as best as are able, to get some handle on what the usage is of that
rink. And then we're going to consider it again and it will be considered again and I know, but I
don't necessarily have a problem with that process to see who wants to come to the table every
year.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Hoffman: Back to the, Chair. The question, these other people don't know.., so the fact that we
have one neighbor here and one neighborhood on the e-mail and the calling list. I mean Cindy
Hansen has got a calling phone tree going that we get these calls on a daily basis.
Happe: Well to that point though Todd, I think you have 12-15 neighborhoods that aren't part of
the program that also probably aren't cognizant of the fact that their tax dollars are either directly
or indirectly subsidizing this program. So yes, some of those neighborhoods maybe aren't as
aware as Pheasant Hills, but I'd counter that there's probably an equal amount of residents that
aren't aware that this program exists that they pay for and don't really have access to use.
Franks: I mean based on, I think you know where I'm at when it comes to opening up city
services and facilities to the public. I mean I've made that pretty clear over and over, but when I
look at the numbers Todd, it just doesn't look like that many people are going to be affected.., at
that point consider that as well. That's unfortunate for city staff because it may mean some tough
phone calls to handle this year. But I'm sure that you'll direct them to come and address the
commission when the time's appropriate to consider the establishment of the 2003-2004 ice
skating program Todd.
Hoffman: I guess my concern is just not good policy and tonight we do have some numbers that
the commission I know is not particularly happy with. A point that if we were going to cut rinks
it wouldn't be, it would be Pheasant Hill and it would not be some other ones that you're talking
about cutting tonight, but the fact that we have at least one "neighborhood activist", my friend
Ted, and so he's here and so we're going to give him his rink and I'm not sure that that's good
policy.
O'Shea: Yeah to be fair, the neighborhoods should have gotten a letter saying to come to this
meeting if you felt strong like that because being in the, I don't think the neighborhoods realize
they're going to get their rinks taken away.
Hoffman: Other than the fact that it was just not included in their brochure, and some people
clued into that, some people have not.
O'Shea: Yeah. It was out of the brochure that just went out. But I do think, I also want to weigh,
and I might be alone on this but I would like some more numbers, which we don't have and that's
why I'm sticking with what we passed last month, that I fear in business when you take
something away and cause animosity, it's worst than the $30,000 we're going to spend to collect
some hard data and then make a decision. So I worry more that sure, people are going to be mad
and when we get the irate people calling and the collecting, sometimes when people go around
the neighborhood, they'll get people to sign something and it will look like they would use it, but
in fact they wouldn't so it can be misleading data then next year when we look at this, we could
have this whole room filled, and yet they wouldn't have used it this year anyway. So then we're
going to go back and re-open, which makes us look like we didn't do our homework and make a
proper decision. So that's why I'm sticking with, let's open them. Let's collect the
demographics that we need. Let's get some data collected, either through a volunteer system and
go with that, and truly we started this because of low usage and you're right. The one that should
be closed is the one we're thinking of keeping open and I don't think that's fair to the other
neighbors because they don't know or didn't key into the brochure that they weren't going to be
open.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Hoffman: Just some history on exactly what you said. When we closed Minnewashta the first
time, people reacted. Filled these chambers at least with some sort of effort that said let's bring it
back. We brought it back and you're right, that may occur.
Happe: That's how the process works though. We can't just make a decision based on whether
or not we're going to be popular. There's a whole study that shows that it is not a good return on
your investment.
O'Shea: Well it's not a decision on being popular as much as, again I want quantifiable data to
make our decision. And then you make a rationale decision. I think in a business sense we
would never make a decision right now without more data. And that's what I'm after. Is it going
to really hurt the city if we spend this $30,000 and try another year with collection like we talked
about last time, and then let's make a decision, then we're done. Then we don't.
Happe: The collection, we have the collection. The collection is going to be measured no
differently than the data that we already have.
O'Shea: Yeah, other than if we go back to the idea that Jerry brought in of having people actually
go at peak times, but do it, and I threw out doing it on a volunteer basis, because then I do think
we might get some different data. And then Pheasant Hills might tum out to be the most used this
year, or you know I think, then again I'm relying on this, and this might be incorrect of me. I
don't feel strongly that this is the right usage. I don't think it, I don't. And that's why I'm
wanting to try another year. Let's get some hard data. Demographics of those neighborhoods
and then make a decision once and for all, and then I feel strongly as a commissioner when
people come to me to say this is why I voted to close these rinks and I'd have some hard facts.
Right now if someone came to me, well we left Pheasant Hills open because we had one
representative, but yet they really, the least used rink, to me I don't feel, and it's not popular. I
just don't feel like it's a sound business decision making process. So that's why I'm still sticking
with let's open them, gather the information we need, and once and for all, because this has been
an agenda item it sounds like every, for a few years now, and then let's just decide the next time it
comes up next season.
Hoffman: Well there's 7 commissioners. That's 7 weeks.
O'Shea: Yeah, I mean just how long, will it take that long? It might not be as fun as the 4th of
July but, I don't know.
Happe: What's your thought process to all the neighborhoods that because they're not part of this
old system of doing this have no opportunity to, I mean your concemed about the 7 existing
neighborhoods. I'm concerned about the 15 neighborhoods that pay for this that don't have the
same opportunity to get the service.
O'Shea: Well that's where you know I think, once we get the numbers and maybe then we're
looking at if we get the demographics and we see neighborhoods that have a potential, maybe we
then look at well shoot, maybe these 7 aren't open but maybe we should be looking at these other
neighborhoods that have the demographics of the age of children that use rinks. So that might
come up.
Franks: We don't even know what, I mean it could very well have nothing to do with age. It
could be user trends.
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Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Hoffman: Which are down.
Franks: Which are down, I mean we know that so I think that's why this has been coming up. Is
that we've tried to make it a numbers game about usage and I think it just, tennis. It happened
with racquetball. It happens with participant sports. That you know they're up and down and I
think what we're really experiencing now is that those neighborhood rinks just are not seeing the
use that we used them when we were kids. And we would all wish that it were that way but I just
don't think that it is. And I don't want the commissioners to forget that we're not proposing
taking out providing ice skating amenity in the city. In fact we're proposing keeping some very
nice facilities open in centrally located and easily accessible locations. My preference certainly,
as I stated in the last meeting, would be to follow staff"s initial recommendation and close all of
the listed pleasure rinks. Okay. At least for me to be honest, I can say that finding some way to
get most of what I want by... seemed prudent but if it comes down to it, I would certainly be most
in favor of following staff" s earlier recommendation.
Atkins: What if we would use Pheasant Hills and Minnewashta as more of a monitor those two
very closely rather than try and monitor all 7? And use that data.
Franks: Monitor, how?
Atkins: Usage. I don't know.
Franks: See I think.
Atkins: On a voluntary basis perhaps.
Franks: And then it's coordinating volunteers and finding volunteers and having people sign up
and then actually are they going to get there on time, when they're supposed to. I mean it
becomes very, very complicated. Well we've gone round and round on this so let's.
Kelly: Is there a motion?
Franks: Yes, is there a motion? It's time for a motion. There is not a motion on the table.
Happe: I'd make the motion. I'd like to move that we support staff"s initial recommendation for
the supporting of the community park ice facilities complete with warming houses and lights as
identified in their initial report to this commission. In addition I would, consistent with staff"s
recommendation, propose that those resources be devoted to those community park facilities and
that the neighborhood ice sheets not be funded for the 2002-2003 calendar and fiscal year.
Franks: Okay, it's been moved. Is there a second? Is there a second? Seeing that there is no
second for the motion, the motion fails. Is there another commissioner willing to make a motion?
Kelly: I would like to make a motion on the entire other side of the spectrum. I move that we
keep the 7 neighborhood ice rinks open for 2002-2003, along with that sending out letters to all
the neighborhood residents stating that these rinks may be closed in the 2003-2004 season
pending low usage in the 2002-2003 season. To monitor the usage I would propose using the
current system of that's being implemented right now with looking at the ice when they go to re-
surfacing, and possibly augment that with some volunteer supervision. Volunteer stuff~
O'Shea: Data collection.
34
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Kelly: Yeah, data collection to be determined but still focus the primary, the primary utilization
analysis using current methods.
Franks: It's been moved. Is there a second?
Spizale: I'll second it.
Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion?
Kelly moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission approve that the
warming house locations be maintained at the Chanhassen Recreation Center, City Center
Park, Roundhouse Park, and North Lotus Park for the 2002-2003 season. Also that the 7
neighborhood ice rinks which include Minnewashta Heights, Pheasant Hills, Carver Beach,
Meadow Green, Rice Marsh, Sunset Park and Chanhassen Hills Park remain open for
2002-2003, along with sending letters to all the neighborhood residents stating that these
rinks may be closed in the 2003-2004 season pending low usage in the 2002-2003 season,
using the current system of record keeping for rink usage. All voted in favor, except Franks
and Happe who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 2.
Hoffman: We'll get commissioners out to these ice sheets on a weekend, I think that's going to
be very educational and so we'll start Dale with our volunteers and I'll go out there and count
people and we'll have that data to see to compare against the maintenance folks data and we'll
come up with a manner to collect that, what would be reporting that which tends to quantify that
data that can be a little bit more dissected. Weekends, you know Monday mornings versus the
weekday times.
Atkins: And this is just the 7, not the?
Hoffman: Yes, the 7 neighborhood rinks.
Franks: Well good work.
RECREATION PROGRAMS:
2002 HALLOWEEN PARTY EVALUATION.
Franks: Jerry, will you be taking over this one?
Ruegemer: I will be.
Franks: Because I don't see Corey here but. Can we move through the highlights and then just
save some time for comments from the commission, thanks.
Ruegemer: Certainly. Highlights. The musical entertainment was moved back per some
recommendations and that's working. We did move them all back and they did have more room
in front, and actually we fought them a little bit at the beginning of moving them back. They
wanted to be closer but at the end of the night they thought you know what, hey. This really
worked out so moving it back, so that was, I think that really worked out nice. Having candy
distributors on one side of the hallway certainly worked out very good with that. Again our
numbers were down a bit from previous years, but it seemed like the flow of the event really went
35
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
much nicer and smoother. It wasn't just kind of a mob of people. It really made a nice event
where we could walk through the hallway. You could sit down and have something to eat. You
could go to the games and have fun and go to the entertainment. So it really was a nice event
really all the way around. Corey had some general, we had a lot of volunteers again from the
KEY Club and Park and Rec commissioners and others commissions were represented from the
city. So that really helped us out a great deal. We don't have a big issue or problem with
volunteers. Everybody was there early. Everybody was dressed. It really was a great event from
that aspect. And then a lot of the comments were kind of down here but it really is a fun event.
People seem to have a good time. Staff`enjoys it so, any questions?
Franks: Questions or comments?
Ruegemer: Just thanks again to all the commissioners that were there that evening to help out
and came in costume and helped out with registrations and all that. It really helps us out so thank
you.
Franks: You're down about 100.
Ruegemer: Yeah, we had 215 kids pre-registered and 112 walk-in for a total of 327, which is
down. You know you figure one or two parents per so we're up in that 500 and 600 range for
people, which is down 200 to 300 maybe from previous years.
Franks: It will be up next year.
Hoffman: 4 bucks a person.
Ruegemer: 4 bucks.
Atkins: I have a comment. It was the first time I attended that and even my kids never went to it.
I think maybe they were too old or too young or whatever, but it was wonderfully run and very
impressive, I thought. I enjoyed it.
Franks: Pass that onto Corey.
Ruegemer: Yes we will certainly. He does a good job. Great job.
2002 TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY.
Ruegemer: Tree lighting's coming up December 7th at 5:00 and since we don't have a tree here
anymore, where the library is currently being constructed, for the second year in a row it will be
down by the clock tower plaza, just on the east side of the medical, Chanhassen Medical building.
Kind of down in that area. Kind of where the clock tower is. So that will be taking place at, I
believe Mayor Jansen will be there to officially throw the switch if you will on the tree. Kicking
off` the holiday season and then we're also, we'll have some refreshments and a bonfire and that
sort ofthingthere, Santa Clause will also bethere. So ifeverybody's intown, please attend.
Happe: Jerry, Chapel Hill Academy thinks they're a co-sponsor of the event, and I asked the
question last time and I was told it was with the Chanhassen Chamber and the City of Chan. For
some reason Chapel Hill Academy has...
36
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Ruegemer: I know that they have a component of the event. I believe that we are the sponsor
and the Chanhassen Chamber is a sponsor so if there was misleading information.
Hoffman: What do they do, sing?
Happe: Do they do the refreshments as well?
Ruegemer: I know they sing. Typically the refreshments are from the Chamber of Commerce
who get cookie snack from Pillsbury and that sort of thing.
Happe: Okay. I'll see if I can chase it down because I can probably clear that up if they are a
co-sponsored, I'd like to see them recognized, but if that's not the role, maybe it's just a
communication.
Ruegemer: I can direct that tomorrow moming as well.
Happe: Okay.
Franks: Thank you Jerry.
Ruegemer: You're welcome.
ADMINISTRATIVE: ROUNDHOUSE RESTORATION, ROUNDHOUSE PARK.
Hoffman: Thank you Chair Franks, members of the commission. On October 28th the City
Council received a report from Deanna Bunkelman, which was much awaited over the summer.
And upon receiving that report and hearing from Ms. Bunkelman, the City Council directed staff
to repair the roof and paint the structure under a city contract, not a neighborhood initiative and
those repairs be an amount not to exceed the $25,000 which is left on the ledger for the
improvements at Roundhouse. And that is in an effort simply to get off the dime and get
something done there and many complaints that the council members have been hearing is over
the appearance of the structure. Thereafter then the building would be turned over to the
neighborhood for additional improvement. Staff will be soliciting bids on this project over the
winter in the hopes of we can have a contractor there first thing this spring to complete those
improvements, and the neighborhood can take it from there.
Franks: What color are they going to paint it?
Hoffman: What color would you like to paint it?
Franks: Well I just don't, you know.
Hoffman: That's our decision.
Franks: Okay. In a way I'm only partly joking but is that going to come back to us? Or who's
handling those types of decisions I guess? You are?
Hoffman: So if you have direction, let me know.
Atkins: Pink.
37
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Happe: Or green.
Franks: Well my only thought for you to consider is there's something that approximates what
that naturally stained, clear coated wood would appear. Some nice, warm earth tone color that
fits in instead of you know, light blue or green or any of the other colors.
Hoffman: Earth tone, nice shingles.
Franks: Earth tone, nice shingles. Architectural shingles would be nice.
Hoffman: The wild card here is the windows. It would be nice not to have boards in the exterior
of the building, but I'm not sure that.
Franks: But what I understood was that the neighborhood group was going to coordinate the
installation of the windows with some of the work to the exterior of the building.
Hoffman: Hopefully.
Happe: Was there a timeline that was identified for the completion of the interior of the building?
Hoffman: No. There was in the contract but this, the neighbor has not signed it. And under this
arrangement I don't believe that the contract is valid any longer. One other comment I want to
make is, that I thought about during the meeting is the City Council is currently working on the
city's budget. Last night they had a budget meeting. Two weeks ago they had a budget meeting.
Next Monday night is the Truth in Taxation hearing here in the City Council chambers, 7:00.
They will then move to what is currently scheduled as their final budget meeting on December
9th. The capital plan that you saw over the summer, you will not recognize the capital plan that is
currently before the City Council. We have, staff has worked with the administration and with
the council on taking in some of the changes that the commission talked about. Deleting the
Bandimere park shelter, and putting that money back into the replacement of these playgrounds
that have been identified. The council has accepted and endorsed that idea and will approve at
least probably 50% of what we need to do this year, with an intent or at least a suggestion that the
remaining 50% would occur next year. The other change, which is even more significant, is the
city commons library has been on a three way split budget up until recently, and now the primary
funding source as at least identified by administration for that is fund 410 park dedication. So if
it moves forward as the council is currently planned, that will be most likely a $500 to $600,000
expenditure out of fund 410, versus an original anticipated level of $200,000. So that's a big
change in fund 410.
Franks: Thank you for that good news. Alright.
Happe: When will we then be able to see what kind of the, is it January that we'll be able to see
what actually was approved on a line item basis?
Hoffman: Yes.
Happe: Okay. That's a big dollar amount for the city commons library work.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS.
Franks: We actually have one. Commissioner Happe.
38
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
Happe: We do have one. And Todd, maybe you can jump in onto the back of this just for
clarification of what we talked about earlier about the altemative revenues. We did have our first
meeting of the altemative revenue committee meeting. We discussed many ideas. We threw out,
basically had a good brainstorming session. It was attended by myself, Commissioner O'Shea
and Commission Spizale. We talked about a lot of ideas. We threw a lot of ideas on the board.
We then classified those ideas in terms of some high priority ideas. Tabled ideas and ideas that
we killed altogether. The intent is to, for this committee to forward back to this commission the
best of the altemative revenue ideas that we come up with in committee. The high priority ideas
were each identified and designated to one of us individually to follow up on for our next
committee meeting which will happen sometime in December. The major ideas that emerged out
of this committee meeting that were assigned as high priority include that we're going to review
further and include municipal golf course. A golf dome possibly combined with a golf course.
Some type of a municipal arena concept that could be a multi-use facility. We talked about the
potential to take a look at the development of the round house as potential program space. We
talked about some ideas for activity fee generation from the heavy users of the athletic and
recreational facilities that we have in Chan. We talked about as a high priority item, lake area
dockage rental. Potential to utilize existing city land and maybe put some enhancements onto the
lakes that could be revenue generating in terms of dock space, etc. We talked about a dog park,
which has been brought up frequently, and a few other pet related ideas that we're going to chase,
pardon the pun, in the interest of determining additional revenue, positive revenue generation we
can create there. We'll have another report, we haven't scheduled yet that next meeting. We'll
do that at the close of the meeting this evening, but we should have another report at the next 1 to
2 meetings of our progress and of the ideas that have emerged from this committee.
Franks: Great, sounds good. Keep it up. We'll look forward to that report. Any other
commission member presentations or committee reports?
Hoffman: Focus group?
Franks: Well Paula, do you want to handle that one?
Atkins: I didn't bring the sheet.
Franks: Okay. The community center focus group has concluded it's work. It did report back to
the City Council yesterday, and do you have the top 5 amenities?
Hoffman: Top 5 amenities are indoor pool, water park outside, fitness area, ice arena and
performing arts.
Franks: So the focus group accomplished it's stated purpose of providing the city with some
feedback that the group of residents did believe some community center in some form was viable
here and that the preferred amenities are the top 5 as listed. And that the focus group also saw
that working in some form of partnership with some other as yet to be identified entities would
probably be the most viable way to bring the community center to our city.
Hoffman: Ron Laprade, he presented last night to the City Council. Was well received. The
City Council made a variety of inquiries and they also heard from Cindy Skack who was on the
committee. Brought forth some independent comments of her own. And discussed but did not
make a commitment, or at least a firm commitment, to continuing the process through our fee
request for proposals and so then...
39
Park and Rec Commission November 26, 2002
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
Franks: That's good. Under the Administrative Packet. Is there anything to comment on there?
Kelly: Thanks for the.., paths.
Franks: They are nice.
Happe: Todd, you are a good person.
Hoffman: Well you like to see that in print occasionally.
Franks: Any other comments regarding the administrative packet?
Happe: I guess the letter to Carver County Attorney Fahey, that situation's been positively
resolved already so.
Hoffman: Great.
Franks: Okay seeing none, is there a motion to adjourn?
Happe moved, Spizale seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
40