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PRC 2001 05 22CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MAY 22, 2001 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Rod Franks, Jay Karlovich, Mike Howe, David Moes, Jack Spizale, and Tom Kelly. MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Rod Franks asked that commission member presentations be placed after Old Business number 1. Todd Hoffman stated that the commission needed to elect a Vice Chairman. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Howe moved, Franks seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission dated April 24, 2001 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. WELCOME NEW/RETURNING COMMISSIONERS. Lash: Under new business we will welcome our new commissioners, Jack and Tom. Welcome. And welcome back to Jay. Wherever he's been. PREPARATION OF NEW "PARK RULES" SIGN. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: Okay, any questions for Todd? Moes: Just clarification on what the practice golf. Has that issue come up as a problem or a standard or an ordinance or? Hoffman: It's not an ordinance, but generally the park maintenance folks chase people away. It's an issue of public safety more than anything. Moes: What jumped into my mind right away was the public safety is flying golf balls. I was just wondering if they'd addressed that at all. Hoffman: Well deputies aren't going to write a tag for it anyways, so it's generally up to our people but if it's on the sign then they'll go ahead and enforce it. If it's not, they don't have anything to go up to and say see. It says it on the sign. Karlovich: What does stafffeel about the color? I mean that seems like we're getting...a red sign. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Hoffman: White sign with red lettering. Karlovich: That just seems. Hoffman: It's an enforcement sign so it will stand out. Howe: How many signs do we make? Hoffman: We'll make a couple hundred. Howe: How much is that going to cost? Hoffman: Those are probably about 10-15 bucks a sign. Howe: Oh okay. Moes: What was Dave Potts' recommendation on the colors that are missing? Hoffman: Bright lettering. White background, red lettering. Karlovich: Neon. Hoffman: If you could get it. If you could get it. Lash: I like strong wording that he had...alcohol restricted to canned beer only I think just is better flowing... Leashed pets allowed only on trails... Hoffman: So you said it different than he did. Lash: Yeah, I just switched only. Allowed only on trails. But I don't like pet feces...but they're both pretty direct. Moes: You drop them, you pick them up. Lash: Pet clean-up, would that be? Karlovich: Are you going to move the only then on the next line? Howe: Canned beer. Only canned beer? Lash: Alcohol restricted to canned beer. Karlovich: Only?... Lash: Oh well I think it needs to be, they need to be prioritized what we think is the most important because people don't always read the whole sign so whatever we want them to know the most needs to be first. Because if they're driving past they're not going to read the whole sign so. 2 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Kelly: Okay so on both the alcohol restricted to canned beer period. Pets allowed on trails period. Very straight. Very direct. Hoffman: Shorter is better in the writing books. Karlovich: It seems like the ordinance of glass containers should be next to the alcohol. Franks: I understand the usage of the word only with the leashed pets allowed on trails. That doesn't. Howe: Yeah I agree. Franks: You know what I'm saying? You can't be on trails and it doesn't mean...also be on the grass too. Lash: It's allowed only on trails. Franks: Yeah. What I understood from before is that the sheriff's deputies are really looking for rules that are clear enough for them to be enforceable when they stop somebody and they don't want to have to sit and argue with somebody. Well it doesn't say it can't be on the grass. It says I can only, it says I'm supposed to be on the trail. It doesn't say I can't be on the grass so then they're like okay. This is dumb to sit here and argue with this person. Like no person or vehicle allowed in parks after hours. Even I of course assume that just with park hours being listed but when they're trying to chase somebody out of the parking lot or tell them there they want it I think very clear that these are the park hours and no person or vehicle allowed in the park after hours. Kelly: You probably could say if you want to be consistent with the alcohol, you could say leashed pets restricted to trails. If you wanted to have, if you want to be kind of consistent between the two restrictions. In terms of wording. Karlovich: No leashes are allowed on grass. Hoffman: Hey we had this same conversation last time so continue on. Moes: I like white background, red lettering. Okay. Hoffman: Start from the top Jay. Lash: Well we need the hours first and then I think it needs to say no one allowed after hours. Hoffman: Okay, so we like that. Check, check. No person or vehicle allowed in parks after hours. Moes: I would say in park after hours. These are individual signs for the individual park. Karlovich: So we're going to remove the s. Moes: Yes. Howe: And I think this is good because you could say well my car's in neutral, not park. I'm not a lawyer. Lash: What's the next most important thing? Keeping cars out of the grass? Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Hoffman: Well that's one of the bigger issues. At least at Lake Ann. Karlovich: I would think it'd be alcohol, wouldn't it? Hoffman: They write more tickets for off road than just about anything. Lash: So you have off`road vehicle travel prohibited. Vehicles prohibited from off`road travel or parking. That makes it more clear. Moes: Well I'm confused though. If you take this off`road part o12; off`road travel you have vehicles prohibited from parking? Lash: Off`road parking. It's supposed to mean vehicles prohibited from being off`the road. Driving off` the road or parking off`the road. Hoff`man: Off`road travel or off`road parking. Lash: Or parking only in designated areas? Would that be two different things. Hoff`man: We tried that last time, didn't we? It didn't work very well. Yeah, motorized vehicles restricted to roadways and parking areas only. Karlovich: Since we're being nit picky, there are areas that are marked as spots anywhere that's pavement... Hoff`man: Yeah, that's not the case so. Karlovich: Is that all we care about is the parking on the grass? Hoff`man: No. We also care about them parking in designated spots. Lash: Parking in designated paved areas only. We're never going to stop them... Howe: If you just reverse it, off`road parking or travel, does that make it more clear? Lash: Yeah, maybe. But again it's not restricting it to designated areas. Sometimes it's not all totally designated. It's not always clear. Moes: Or you could just...travel or parking prohibited off`road. Lash: Say that again. Moes: Vehicle travel or parking prohibited off`road. Lash: How about off`road parking. Hoff`man: Generally anywhere that there should not be on street parking we have a sign. So that may take care of that. Lake Ann, anyplace along the roads you're not supposed to be parking, we have it signed. So then this says in addition to that, vehicles prohibited from driving off` road or parking off` road because 4 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 sometimes the parking lots get full. They park on the grass. We send the deputies out to Lake Ann to write tickets for off`road parking a great deal of the time. Lash: Off` road parking or travel prohibited. Moes: But that sounds like there's two pieces to it. One being parking restricted to designated areas. The second component being off` road vehicle travel.., activities. Lash: So you think it should be broken up? Moes: Yes. Howe: Well I think if you drove by the sign quickly, as Todd said, you want to have the meat of it in the first couple words. I think you'd understand vehicles prohibited from off`road parking or travel. I think you'd know what they're talking about. Lash: Okay, so you want it worded like that? Howe: Well Dave has a good point but I think we need to make it as short as we can too. Moes: Yeah it's less thinking and I was making two short statements which is what I was trying to run through in my mind. One being the parking restricted to designated areas. And the second area is the same point being no off` road vehicle... Hoff`man: You can see that Dave organized this in a centering pattem. It looks nice. Okay, alcohol you're pretty much in agreement on. Leashed pets allowed only on trails. Lash: I'm guessing that the pets would be the next biggest issue after parking and off`road travel. Karlovich: Snowmobiles... last I guess. Franks: Ithinkifit'sloweronthesignit'dbeeasiertoread. So I'm thinking maybe that one should go. Hoff`man: Well let's get through the wording and then we can worry about order. Lash: Okay, alcohol restricted to canned beer. I think that's... Glass containers prohibited. That's easy. Snowmobiles prohibited. That's easy. Can we put pet clean-up ordinance enforced? Or not? Hoff`man: Sure. Lash: Will people get that? Kelly: What is the ordinance? Moes: Pooper scooper ordinance? Lash: Is that what it's called? Hoffman: Feces removal ordinance... Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Franks: But there's no offroad traveling. Lash: And littering. Littering laws enforced. Hoffman: So what's the pet one? Pet clean-up ordinance enforced? Is clean-up a word? Franks: Hyphenated. Lash: So that's all ofthem, right? ...I don't know, there's no ordinance regarding the golf. Hoffman: No. Lash: So we'll be back into the position with the pets because there's no ordinance for anyone to enforce, so I agree with Sergeant Potts. It'd be difficult for them to enforce it because people will want to argue. Howe: What'd we decide about leashed pets? Are we going to do the top restrict it? How do we write that one? Lash: We put leashed pets allowed only on trails. Karlovich: Remember I was against that. Franks: It doesn't have to be an ordinance for us to have a set of rules. Karlovich: I thought we said it was okay... Howe: That was another commission. Hoffman: Just because you're doing it you're trying to make yourself feel good. Lash: Well the problem I think with it is, we go right back to enforcement the same as the pets on the trails. It was an unwritten rule that pets were allowed on the trails, but not within the park. But there was no ordinance that said that so when people were in the park area and the police would stop them, they'd get into the...that we're supposed to be able on the trails but that wasn't clear so I think it's difficult to put something on a sign if there's not going to be somebody behind it...to enforce it. Karlovich: Right, there's no ordinance for them to charge somebody. Lash: Right. If we want to recommend to the City Council that they make an ordinance so we can do that, I suppose we can do that... Howe: Do we see a lot of this? What parks? All the parks? Hoff`man: North Lotus. City Center. Lake Ann. Meadow Green. Lash: But you know, look at all the stuff`people want to do in parks. I mean something they want to do in the park is bat and ball. Fly a kite and running and they crash... Howe: Are they really swinging? I mean we're just chipping here. I've never seen anybody do it. 6 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Lash: I haven't either. Hoffman: Some are, some aren't. Lash: I mean if we have to restrict every activity from the park... Hoff`man: I think I've only received a couple of calls of people that were complaining and I've seen it a lot more times than that and I've never had to go up and talk to anybody because when they were conducting themselves in this activity, there wasn't anybody else around. Spizale: I think it's a common sense thing. You know, because people...chipping golf balls. There's nobody around, yeah. I might swing at golf balls. I don't think it's worth putting on a sign. Lash: Okay, so we've got most everything else that we need. Hoffman: 9 items. You have 9 items. Lash: Prioritized. Hours. No one's allowed in outside of hours. Parking I think is the next biggest issue. I would guess that the pets are the next biggest issue but Todd what do you think is the next biggest one? Hoffman: Yeah. Lash: So pets would be the next biggest one ofbeing on a leash and picking up. They go hand in hand. Off`road is the next? Or do you think alcohol is the next? Hoff`man: I put that right in, I put vehicles right in after 2. 2, 3, 4, 5. Lash: Okay, so then alcohol. Hoff`man: Yeah, then 6 would be alcohol. 7 would be glass. 8 would be snowmobiling. 9 would be litter. Karlovich: Before we word all the signs, are we going to see one? Or maybe we should discuss this color iSSUe. Lash: Did you want that to be tan and green? They want white with red, right? Howe: That's your typical don't do this sign. Franks: White with green. Does that not show up enough, is that their concem? Spizale: I think white with green is more park like. Franks: That's what I'm thinking. Spizale: Red and white seems kind of harsh. Karlovich: ...I've never seen park rules sign. Hoff`man: They see it all the time. 7 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Karlovich: Whichever color it is...until somebody points out the rules. Hoffman: People use red as a attention getter. Red sells. Whatever you want to recommend. Spizale: It just doesn't seem very friendly. It's bad enough to come to a park and see all these things you can't do. Even though that's one of the things you look for to see what you can do in the park, maybe just a little bit more...the colors they've got in this brochure are great. Howe: That's a good point. Any opinions on what other cities? I'm trying to think at Minnewashta Regional, do they have signs up there? What colors are they? I can't recall. Hoffman: I don't recall either. Howe: All I think of is downtown no parking. White background, red letters and it sends a message. You can look at it and know it's something you're not supposed to do. You're right about the friendliness but if you want to, you can't do this people. Spizale: I think Hennepin Parks has brown and white. Hoffman: I don't know if they have it on the rules signs. I know they have a lot of directional signs. Spizale: I think on the rules too. Lake Minnetonka the same thing. Franks: Can we go two color? I mean white background with green lettering and then a red... Hoffman: Christmas. Franks: It'd be suitable for all year round. Hoffman: It's not fiscally responsible. Lash: I actually don't really care. Howe: You don't care about this one? Lash: No. Karlovich: What does staff recommend? Lash: He did. He recommends red lettering on white background. Hoffman: It's universal language. Franks: Well I'd like personally I'd like to see the sign with green lettering on a white background. It just seems more consistent with our visual perception of park than red. Aesthetically I don't like it but then I also don't like the kind of the no that it says. Red in your face when we're supposed to be engaging them in activity, not... 8 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Lash: Personally I would have liked to have seen all of the rules stated in a positive manner, but unfortunately I know...You know canned beer allowed only. That's positive. As opposed to saying no, restricted right. Howe: Two sentences they get their message across. Lash: Yeah I know. Okay, somebody needs to make a motion... Karlovich: ...has anyone been to Excelsior Park in downtown Excelsior? They have little things with the...pooper scooper type stuff`right there provided for you. I mean if we're having enforcement problems, is that something we want to do? Lash: You've supposed to provide your own. Howe: I'll save my Rainbow bags from the food counter and. Lash: You're supposed to be able to produce. Franks: On your person. Lash: Yes. An instrument of pick-up. Karlovich: I was just wondering if we're behind the times by not. Hoff`man: No. Many cities choose not to because then you've got to supply the little vending machines and the little gloves forever and ever and ever and no. Lash: It's not that hard to have a bread bag tied onto your leash. Franks: Are you taking this down and developing this further or are you looking for a definite recommendation this evening? Hoff`man: I think we've got it pretty well thought through with the comments from Sergeant Potts and ready to go up to the council and get these things put into place. Lash: Well you know... Sergeant Potts had it, you know that was a pleasing, eye pleasing thing. I don't know if our's will shake down that way. It'd be nice to see how it will, you know if nothing else if it went like this it would be okay but that's just kind of all over everywhere. Hoff`man: This reads a lot nicer than that with the double lines like that. That doesn't read very well. We can do it like this. You know even with gaps. That will be fine. Moes: Okay. That's what I like about it. I like the left aligmnent. Just stating my opinion here. Spizale: I've got a question. Is this leaf the symbol of Chanhassen? Hoff`man: Yes. Spizale: Could you do a leaf with the lettering, white lettering with a green leaf...? 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Franks: You mean a stamped, cut out shape of a leaf? Spizale: Yeah. It'd still be square. These could still be in there. Lash: You're talking about the printing on the...would that be more expensive? Hoffman: Probably, sure. Franks: Aesthetically that would be nice. I wouldn't want anything to detract from people actually getting the message. Moes: Before you do that Jay, just a quick question. When are we looking to have these signs put up? Is that something we're shooting for next month? Lash: It's already the end of May. If we table it til June, then it has to go to City Council a couple weeks later. The signs will be... Hoff`man: About the time we can put them up is this fall anyway. We're too busy. Kelly: One more quick thing. Do you think it'd be easier or harder to read if you put bullets onto the rules? Hoff`man: I can come back with 4 or 5 different layouts for you. I can see where we're headed here. We're going to pick one out and vote on it. Karlovich: Okay, I'll make a motion for staff`to take our input with regards to language and come back with a couple different choices on designs and possibly I guess also take our input with regards to color and designs and come back with a couple different choices for us. And that's about it. Lash: Is there a second to that? Moes: Second. Karlovich moved, Moes seconded to direct staffto provide the commission with a choice of park rule signs taking into consideration input regarding language and colors. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. APPOINTMENT OF VICE CHAIRMAN. Lash: We'll move onto the appointment we need to fill, appoint a new vice chair now that Fred is. Howe: You want nominations? Lash: Open to nominations. Howe: I nominate Rod. Lash: Do I have to have a second to that or do I have to see if there's any other nominations first? Which way does it go Todd? Do we need a second to that or do I have to see if there's other nominations? 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Hoffman: Don't know. Howe: I'll give my reasons why. Lash: Okay, go ahead. Howe: Well I'd like to nominate Rod because I've always respected the chair that he sat in was right there. He listens. He's a consensus builder. I think he'd make a very good vice chair. Lash: Is there a second to that motion? I'll second that. Howe moved, Lash seconded to appoint Rod Franks as Vice Chairman for the Park and Recreation Commission. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. HERMAN FIELD PARK, RESPONSE TO NEIGHBORHOOD MAILING. Lash: We have the Herman Field Park issue and Betty... Just to let you know, the commission visited the park this evening before we came here... Todd, do you want to give us an update on that? Hoffman: It was back in April that the commission talked about Herman Field Park based offofI believe it was a police report we had at that time, or some other issues that we were talking about in regard to the playground. So we sent a letter to the neighborhood which ended up generating a good deal of response. Primarily through e-mail and voice-mail, which the voice mail messages were dictated and you have in your packet. I distributed this evening two other responses that you have in that back to back sheet and then also a memorandum from Sergeant Dave Potts speaking to a variety of the issues raised in the packet which was distributed from the letters from the folks. Generally I think the issue has taken on again a larger scope. Whether the playground goes or not, if you add up the vote totals, most people don't want the playground to go away. There are a few that said, sell it to a developer. Put houses in there. That will be the best thing for it and a couple others said close it down but primarily the majority would like to keep the playground and keep the park and then they focus immediately after that on the enforcement issues and the issues of the unsavory conduct which takes place down in the park from time to time. Speaking with Sergeant Potts, now you don't know what to believe. You know if that's, if those issues are generated are expounded upon or not. Dave had some first hand experience in his memorandum which he handed out, distributed to you when he had his canine dog, that he would go to the park on a routine basis and he stated that he didn't see adequate patrol of one city park would be questioned mark. Perception from some residents is they rarely see squads. Therefore squads are not patrolling the park. When I was on patrol with my canine partner I was always looking for quiet, out of the way places to exercise my dog. Thus he picks Herman Field Park. Herman Field Park fit the bill. I rarely saw anyone using the park even though I was there all the time. I assumed then that the neighbors rarely saw me as well. In all my visits to the park I never caught anyone in a criminal act other than park curfew. It's not uncommon occurrence for deputies to be in exact spot. It is not a common occurrence for deputies to be in the exact right place at the exact right time to witness a crime in progress. So there's those issues. Deputy Potts talked a great deal about the fact that if the neighborhood wants to change the activity at the park they have to be actively involved. Cell phones have changed the way we do business in our communities and if these people have cell phones with them when they're at the park and they run into this type of activity they can call in a 911 call. I think there is some hesitation if you were the only other person at the park and you pick up your phone and call 911, the response I heard from the people that called and talked to me on the phone was that when we pull in there anyway, if we bring the family down they leave and so it's just the fact that we have to do that. That we have to be present to have these people leave so. I think this evening the comments you've received in writing, I know Ms. Lang has some discussion she would like to have with the commission. 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 And then after that, Beth Hoiseth was out this evening and indicated to the commission that she would be willing to again recharge the Neighborhood Watch effort out there and see if those people would like to take that on again. There's a variety of environmental changes that could be put into place. Boulders or bollards around the parking lot to minimize the off road activity that we see up there. Many of the folks talked about a gate and there's pluses and minuses to a gate. I think the current prevention people mostly see minuses to that. Then after you gate it, the only people that can get back there are the people that want to take the time to walk back into the park and so they would think that the activity would only increase and it would bring more of the parking out into the neighborhood while those people would park then in the neighborhood and walk back down into the park so. Generally where I saw this, my read on this whole thing was that the neighborhood would like to keep the park and they would just like to work a little bit harder with some involvement from the city on making it a better place for everyone to participate in their activities. Lash: Thanks Todd. Anyone have questions for Todd? Betty. Betty Lang: I'm just assuming that everyone. Lash: You have to state your name and address please so we have it for the record. Hoffman: It's been a while... Betty Lang: Oh right, but it's the same old problem, right? I started out quite early with this project before they even wanted to build the park and I hate to say it but I guess I told you so. That's bottom line. I think everyone has read the letters that have come in I assume. And you've seen the park. Okay, I didn't get to read all the letters and I wish I would have had time to do that but I picked up on a number of points there and I'd like to say that I am a grandmother and I have 2 grandchildren so I'm not an old witch that's out to get rid of the playground equipment. For one thing I don't think removing the playground equipment is going to have any affect on what goes on down there. It's the after hours things. You talk about Neighborhood Watch, well who's going to be down there pushing a stroller or walking their dog at 10:00, 11:00, 12:00, maybe 2:00 in the moming. This is what really ticks me off and as far as Sergeant Potts I believe his name, I mean he's got the right answer. He can't be down there. His patrol cars can't be down there all the time. And I've seen him come down, or whoever's down there. Chase them all out. The kids drive around the block. The patrol car goes one way and 2 minutes later they're back down there. I believe closing the park, closing the driveway to the park is the best answer. To make it just a walking area. No cars. And if the neighborhood people want it, fine. They can walk to the park. And when we first moved out there, that was a dead end and that's where all the cars parked and they have their parties there at the dead end so if you allow any cars at all, you're going to have the same problem if you have a gate there. All they do is park on our lawn and cross and block the road. Throw their garbage out and do their same loud music in the middle of the night. That's not going to change. As far as the crime watch sign, I don't know if you noticed or not but a little spray paint, I'm sure they've read it. You think that crime watch sign is going to stop it. It's not stopping them. When they're determined to go down there and cause damage, they're going to do it. And in all the letters, I think all the points were brought up. Cars racing around all hours of the night. Loud music. And drug activity. I know the Carver County Sheriff came around last year asking about, they thought that's nothing. I'm surprised. We see cars going in and out of there all the time. So I guess as far as the letters, I guess because it's costing money all of a sudden everybody's kind of interested. I believe there was a Satellite that was bumt up down there last year. And I don't know if you took a walk and saw all the playground equipment that was bumt up and boarded up and I don't know, there was glass. Usually there's beer bottles undemeath all the equipment. So the garbage can that's down there, that's always dumped in the parking lot and...with broken beer 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 bottles, that's just, you expect to see that. And the latest was a truck load of garbage. I have some nice pictures you might like to see. You probably missed that today but that's what we have to put up with. Lash: And this was dumped by the parking lot or? Betty Lang: At the end of the parking lot. Our driveway light has been shot out and I noticed that somebody else had mentioned something about, I don't know BB gun or whatever they used and just last week I wasn't home at the time but someone came to our door to see if we were missing mail and I've noticed that when I drove out to go to work that day that below each mailbox there was mail so now they're getting into the mailboxes in the neighborhood. And also the, I forgot what I was going to say. So I think basically if you read the letters, everyone brings out the same point. The vandalism down there, the loud music, drag racing on that road and drug dealing. But if you can come up with a wonderful solution, I'm for it. Thank you. Lash: Thanks Betty. Should we open this up for commissioner comments? . . . solution for this situation. Tom, do you have any suggestions? Any ideas you want to throw out? Kelly: The only thing I thought of, we talked about out there was maybe use that grass field for some kind of a soccer field or a volleyball courts just to get more people in but those people aren't going to be playing soccer and playing volleyball at midnight. They're still going to, if the problem is happening after the sun goes down, that may not solve. The park may get more positive use but it may not solve the negative use so, I'm not helping. Sorry. Lash: Thanks Tom. Mike, do you have any ideas? Howe: No. It's a problem. I don't feel you can shut it down though. I think even if you left it open, I mean this type of person is going to want a place to go and I'm sorry about your mail. I know in my neighborhood we've had some mail stolen. That's something that's been happening in some places in Chanhassen. A gate would be an interesting idea but l think that's...the park. I like Todd's idea. Some locks or something to keep people from driving on the field but still, that's not going to solve your core problem of people hanging around there when they're not supposed to and engaging in things that they're not supposed to and bother the neighbors. We talked about a light but a light doesn't seem to do any good. It's been tom down anyway and there's no one there to look at it anyway at 12:00 or 10:00 or 11:00 or 2:00 in the moming. I would say as a start and see where it goes, I think Beth had an idea about meeting with the neighbors and try to use that park more and see where it goes. I mean the more people there, I don't know. I know we had a problem with this in other parks. Even Lake Ann. People go there when they're not supposed to, but there's probably no one there to hear them so. I really don't have a solution. Lash: Thanks. Dave. Moes: Yes, questionofBettyiflcan. You mentioned...prohibiting traffic from going down to the park. In your thought process then where would this gate be? BettyLang: Right at the beginning. Right at the beginning ofthe park. Moes: In driving down... Hoffman: Right here Betty? Or here? Betty Lang: Well now there's a new home there so where their driveway is. 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Haffman: It comes out at about here I think. Maes: Kind afthe last tum there, right? Haffman: The new driveway's right here. Betty Lang: Well then it would have to be after their driveway. I guess ifyau put it too close to the parking lot area it wouldn't do any good. You'd have all those cars down there doing the same thing. Maes: Well that's where I was trying to put the two pieces together. Betty Lang: Well we'd have to have a no parking area. On the street would be no parking and that way we'd restrict them from parking their cars there. Maes: But part afthe earlier comments I thought I heard was before the road was continued down to the park, or maybe it was one in the same that they were always parking there to begin with. Betty Lang: Right. Maes: Was it at the end afthe road where the park is now or was it up farther? Betty Lang: It was right where the new people have their driveway. Maes: Okay, so they were parking there to begin with before the road was extended into the park. Okay. Betty Lang: But I mean there were no parking signs or restricted them from parking. You know anybody could go there and park. Maes: Okay. In my mind the thought process then is in order to, you put a gate there, the same type of enforcement monitoring patrolling that we're talking about for the park itself today would need to be in place but gated at the end afthe road as well. Betty Lang: At one point there was 11 cars down there. We counted 11 coming out afthere so you wouldn't really have room for 11 cars. You'd probably have a few...it might not be so appealing. Maes: If yau restricted parking. Lash: I'm thinking they're not following the sign rules. Maes: Okay. I was just trying to think through. If we moved the access point out, what issues have really been resolved and what I'm hearing quite possibly is that the parking issue has just been moved up the road. And that the issue is still there. Lash: Or where they park. Maes: Out in the street. Lash: If there's no parking. 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Moes: Well, somebody...I'm just thinking out loud as to what. The core issue has been resolved or has just been moved up the road 4 to 5 blocks. Betty Lang: I think it's been moved up and also it's opened up so they can get a lot more back there. I think you made a good point, you know. I mean we'd probably have the same problem but maybe would limit the number of cars... Moes: ...that takes some driving to get there. This is very well known across the community that it's a hangout. Betty Lang: Excuse me, that was the point I missed. It's increasing. Every summer it grows and grows and grows and so as soon as school gets out we expect it every year more. You're right, that's a good point too that it just, they know it's a good place to go that they won't be bothered. Karlovich: Are we getting into open discussion now? Lash: Well we'll kind of work our way down and then maybe open it up for free flow. Any other ideas? Moes: No, I was just trying to think through the gating seemed to be an option versus closing it down completely and I was trying to think through that .... pass it on. Lash: Initially I think when we discussed this and brought this forward to the residents, I don't think, at least I know I did not intend to close the park. The thinking that I had was that...playground equipment had was vandalism, that maybe the idea was to move it somewhere where it would be used the way it's intended to be used. So I want to make sure that any information that's shared with the neighbors is that the intention was not to close the park. It was to consider the idea of maybe relocating the equipment only. It appears from the information we're getting from the residents, there's maybe more use than what we had thought. I thought Beth made a good point that, and Sergeant Potts also that a sign for Neighborhood Watch is not going to deter activity. It's going to be the Neighborhood Watch efforts. However the Neighborhood Watch efforts will mostly be during park hours because most of the families with their toddlers aren't going to be going down there after 10:00. If there was a light down there, Todd was the light on a timer or was it just on all the time? How did that work? Hoffman: It's on a photocell so it's on after dark. Lash: So it comes on and stays on all night long? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: And we may want to discuss, I thought that Sergeant Potts had a good idea and he said you know sometimes having a light down there just makes it more convenient for them to be able to see what they're doing when they're in there when they shouldn't be in there to start with, and it makes it more difficult for neighbors to see that there's a light down there that doesn't belong so if they're bringing in flashlights or their own lights, it'd be easier to detect if we weren't providing light for them. So if we want to re-install the light I guess I would suggest that it be on a timer and that they go off at 10:00 or 10:30 or something like that. So we're not lighting... You know part of me wants to encourage more positive participation, which would mean scheduled soccer practices or some of those kind of things to get more people down there. It won't be a fun place for them to be if there's appropriate activities going on. That chases them away. But again that won't chase them away at night. I don't have a, I mean it's one extreme or another. It's going to either encourage more.., appropriate participation at the park and more Neighborhood Watch. 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 The other extreme is to gate it. Block off everything that we could possibly block ofl~ They have to try and walk in to get in there to party, which is difficult when you have a keg or whatever all they want to bring in there. That's harder to do. And if we have no parking down there, then you can call and they can enforce no parking. I don't know that that's the solution. A lot of times those kind of things backfire on us too. That just doesn't always work so I'm not sure, I need to hear more comments from other people... Franks: Betty, just a question if you would. It sounds like you really are up on what's going on down there. Betty Lang: Because I'm the only neighbor. I mean you talk about Neighborhood Watch, until this other new home got in there, we're the neighbors. Howe: Well where's your lot line? Which lot is your's? Franks: I'm just wondering, well how many nights per week let's say in the summer once school lets out, and we're assuming is the active time. About how many nights a week is this really being a problem, that you're noticing? You're able to notice. Betty Lang: Every night. Franks: Every night. Betty Lang: The squealing. I don't know about the damage because I don't go down there to check the damage, but the squealing wheels, the fast cars coming out of there, loud music in the summer, that's every night. As soon as school gets out. Not so much before but I can anticipate now a lot. I would say every night there's somebody breaking the time curfew down there. That 10:00 curfew doesn't mean a thing. Like I say, if they patrol it, if it's a call they patrol it. The cars all come out. 2 minutes later they're all back. Franks: And just so I can understand from your perspective how it's going on, is it something that lasts for a little while in the evening, or on these nights that you notice something, is it going on for long periods of time or? Betty Lang: Well it depends. It's always different... Franks: This conversation we're having is very familiar to one that we've already had in the past and it was out of that neighborhood got really mobilized and the public safety department got their watch going and got active and here we are again. Back with the same issue again. My guess is, unfortunately that the same thing will happen again because we're not radically changing anything from what we've already tried. There's nothing new that I can see coming into the mix if we just allow our crime prevention person to really mobilize the neighborhood into a park watch kind of thing. That has been done. I don't see anything being different here. I think the same thing is going to happen again and we're going to be back at the same spot where we are. Though on the other hand I can empathize with the neighbors that are going, bringing the kids down to the playground. Wants to see that go. That's something that they're using and that they're used to and it's a difficult decision you have to make but this design, as I'm looking at it now it just seems so unworkable to come up with anything that will cure this problem. And Todd, I'm sitting here thinking that this might be beyond our expertise a little bit in park design kind of prevention. To really develop a workable solution. What we've known how to do we have tried and have not been successful and arrested the difficulties. So I'm sitting here feeling a little bit helpless. 16 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Betty Lang: That's how we felt. From the day it was put in. Hoffman: Commissioner Franks, I'm not sure there's a silver bullet in park design that will take care of this situation. What you hear the law enforcement people saying is that in, they can't do it alone and neighborhood crime watch, and perhaps what would change is if the people become concemed enough that they are going to make daily efforts if that's what it takes to dial 911 and get the police out there. If that continues for a few weeks, those kids are not going to hang out here with the cops constantly stopping back, if they're doing any type of activities that they don't want to get caught doing, that's going to go away. And assuredly when things quiet down, come back again and it's going to take the same effort from the neighborhood. Lash: Well what do the police do when they're called down there? They drive in, all the cars drive out and that's the end of it? Don't they ticket? Don't they arrest? Don't they get license plate numbers and follow up? What do they do? Hoffman: I can't answer that. Lash: Bust up the party and. Hoffman: I can't answer that question. They're there to, a question for Sergeant Potts. Lash: I started getting, I read the blotter every week in the paper and I don't see lots of minor consumption citations being written down for that park so my guess is that maybe we're breaking it up but not. Hoffman: Well that's assuming that consumption is taking place. I mean it's not always the case. A lot of these kids just want to hang out and have someplace to go. I would assume a lot of the traffic activity is just the neighborhood or the general area kids driving on down there to see if any of their buddies are there. And then they drive on out and they drive fast on that little windy road. You can see there's about as much travel off the road as there is on the road in that one curve so. Franks: Well this commission is notorious for not giving up on ideas so I think that I would be more than willing to direct staff to really work with the neighborhood to see what they can develop. That you really gauge the level of their commitment to see if something is workable. Hoffman: ... and I could add to that that if the park plan was never given to the city, I don't think you would ever have seen a neighborhood park there. But for the fact that it was given to the city, it's kind of like what did you have to lose. Franks: Well part of my thinking is that there's this sense that we've invested into this park, not only time, resources and money, but the neighborhood has an investment here just by the nature of it's presence. But when I look at it just on a purely an investment perspective, you begin to wonder when you should really take your losses and run and you know we talk about improvements. How much do we want to keep putting into improvements or fencing or keep replacing the equipment when it continues to be vandalized and the neighbors continue to have these problems and is there some other solution to provide for the types of recreational needs for this neighborhood other than having it centered in Herman Park. And maybe what we need to do is begin, while the neighborhood is taking this on themselves, we as a body need to begin to look for an altemative means to really begin to meet the needs of this neighborhood. At least as far as tot recreation in some other fashion. I don't know if that's workable or not. Hoffman: Buy some other land somewhere else in the neighborhood. 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Lash: Are you done Rod? Franks: Yeah, I'm done. Thanks. Lash: Jay. Karlovich: I'd like to start offfirst of all with a question for, I'm sorry. Betty Lang: Betty. Karlovich: ...refer to you by your first name. I don't remember your last name. Betty Lang: Lang. Karlovich: Lang. Who owns the platted lot that's kind of to the southeast of your property? And then I guess this just kind of lays into a general question for stafl~ I'm looking at the map that's in front of us and it refers to a Forest Avenue platted right-of-way and it appears as though there's some line, a different type of dotted line that just starts near where it says 25 feet wide. It talks about an access road. Before we get into any more discussion I guess about the gate, I'm wondering if at what point is a public road or a point where we put a gate in without blocking the access to platted lots and I'm not sure what is possibly platted on the other side. You said there's some new house that's gone in but, you know it appears our park property, that 20 acre rectangle and we have some type of access easement that maybe looks like it hooks onto a platted road. Hoffman: That's right at that point. There's a second home going in here. I'm not sure if they're going to go down a common driveway. If they're having another driveway in here but at this point that's platted right-of-way and then we purchased an easement, the city purchased an easement to go through here for a road. Karlovich: So I guess if it's before us right now whether we're going to replace the slide or not, and you say you already have one in stock and we have no other use for it somewhere else, it seems like kind of a no brainer that we're going to replace the equipment that's with the neighborhood wants. With regards to the gate, I don't know if the gate can be that much of an option if we have to put it that far down Forest Avenue and or not. That's something maybe that we should discuss at a later date. I think otherwise if we could put a gate all the way back where it splits off`from the intersection with Forest Circle, I think all the landowners like that. You know the gated idea.., commission members that that might be a solution. I think if you're going to go down there and party and listen to some music and sit in your car, you're more apt to do that if it's gated and you have to walk down there. I guess you'd have to bring your music with you and you'd have to fight the mosquitoes or the cold and so I think a gate is a good idea. I just don't know where a gate can be put. Otherwise after we put in the new slide, slides that the kids vandalize and destroy it again, there appears we have two options to either intensify the use of the park or make it more of a passive, open space and it doesn't appear that you have us up here to intensify. We don't have any land to develop a field or any more of a parking lot without tuming all of the open space into a parking lot. So then I think you're forced to kind of putting the slides back in. You can investigate the gate a little bit more. Otherwise if it fails again, which it appears it might get bumt up again at some time, they just leave it as an open field. I don't know but that's maybe some ideas for maybe a different master plan for this park. I don't know, I'm just kind of speaking out loud. Those are the comments that I have and I'll pass it onto our new commissioner. 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Lash: Jack. Spizale: I kind of like the idea of a gate and I agree with you. I think it makes it a lot harder for anybody to use it. The other, and I hate to see the bad guys win. You know that bothers me. Why should bad people chase away good people? And it's basically good people. You've probably got really a small amount of people mining it for everybody else. And in kind of looking at this too, I really don't see where the sheriff's doing that good of a job. I don't see where he's arrested anybody or given any, frankly I read that police blotter. I've never read anything, anybody's been stopped down there and given a citation so it can't be that hard to catch somebody down there and tag them. I guess I'm a little bit bewildered why they can't catch somebody because it doesn't seem that hard. It's just teenage kids going down there. If they took two squad cars and they stopped the cars and ID'd the kids and got their names, when there was vandalism, the first person that they could go to was these kids that they ID'd and start a file on them. So I think they could be doing, he seemed like a really nice guy but I think he could be doing a much better job on solving his end of the problem. And I think the other idea is that there was, and maybe this is a long range idea but if there was another piece of property in that neighborhood that was open to put that playground equipment and people just walked to it and it was in the open and they sold that piece of land to a developer, at least the playground equipment could still be used by the neighborhood. And I mean the area that the area's using is just a very small, tiny little area. They've got 20 acres. If that was an invisible spot in the middle of that neighborhood it'd be great. I guess that's my comments. Lash: Okay, anyone else have comments that you want to throw out from what you heard? Howe: I strongly encourage a meeting again between the neighbors and that and maybe Dave. I know they've probably had one of these before but I agree with what Jack said. If there's just a way that the, as soon as school ends in the end of June just, I don't know if it's for a week period, just a very intense. Be at that park all the time. Neighbors and maybe work an extra effort with the sheriff`to be there and say you know, we're going to be serious about this this year. You know come off`on that track the first week school's out, maybe there's a way you could set the trend to make it, make the bad guys leave. Spizale: I think the kids would go somewhere else. Find another hangout spot. Franks: In Chaska. Spizale: Yeah, or Hennepin County. Lash: Anyone else? Moes: Well just an additional thought is the gate concept does have some interesting aspects to it. I'm not quite certain where that gate would be appropriate to put. I'm trying to think of the vehicle traffic down there. But doing a gate and at the same time, now that we've got a parking lot down there we could probably start a mini skateboard park. That would increase the activity at the park and quite possibly have the individuals going somewhere else. Karlovich: If we're getting creative, one thing that I'd love to have is possibly having Betty sell us her property and...it looks like her property is where the neighborhood park should be and she could have a nice home there where the park is. Betty Lang: Great, a swap. Karlovich: We could just move her house over there and solve the problem. 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Lash: Anyone else? Franks: I just want to make a comment about the gate. As far as stopping vehicle traffic, I think it's a good idea. Where we have the placed it looks like it's not real optimum. Then we have the whole practical aspect of who opens the gate and closes the gate. When is it opened? Does it stay open during the winter? Is it closed during the winter? What time of the day? Who's going to do it? We're not going to have the CSO or the sheriffs department going out there twice a day in the moming and night to open and close the gate. And families are on vacations and scheduling about what it's going to do. If you can imagine it, the calls that would come into city hall if a person forgot to open it that day or was sick and so I mean, the concept of a gate sounds good to me and a practical level, it just doesn't seem workable. Hoffman: Well I think there is some. Lash: I don't think it was going to be open and closed. It was just going to be... Hoffman: Closed permanent. Moes: Well the gate that I was referring to would be a permanent structure there prohibiting vehicle traffic. Hoffman: So you're talking about like driving the posts into the. Moes: I'm not sure what the right answer would be. My thought is I'd be willing to try. Franks: Close the road completely to vehicle traffic. Moes: Some sort of permanent blockade, whatever the term would be and try that as an option. And then get feedback on that. Lash: You know I made a list of some things and as much as I would, as I know sometimes it doesn't work to get it off and you have other kind of problems and things like that, I'm wondering if for this particular instance we don't have to at least just give it a shot for this year and see what happens. And maybe not a big, fancy gate structure. It may be just boulders across. Howe: Cement barriers for islands. Lash: I mean something so that we don't have to put, make a big investment into creating some big gate structure and into the grass area so it can't be just, you've got to bring them around. And if we close down some of the neighbors may not like that because they're not going to be able to drive down there either... They're going to need to then walk or bike in and post, now you won't have this to be able to do this but somebody else would have to do it. Post no parking signs because otherwise you're just going to park all over on the street and walk in. Replace the slides so that the neighbors now have a nice playground equipment and increase the Neighborhood Watch so they're calling in. Ask the police to put it on their hot spot thing for the first couple weeks in June when school's out and that we encourage them to tag violators instead of just scaring them ofl~ And then review it in the fall and get, you know ask Betty and some of the other neighbors to come in and say how you think it's going. They're the ones who are going to see it. ...people in the new house are going to see it. And ask if they see as much vandalism. If they see the traffic, if they see the broken bottles. All those kinds of things. In the end if it works, you know then tum the parking lot into a basketball. Put some basketball hoops in. 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Franks: Okay, but how do you have no parking on the street? Lash: I don't know... Franks: ...maintaining accessibility, apart from people that are going to come from outside these few streets here who want to use the park... Karlovich: It'd be like the one at Lake Ann where you have to go way down the road. Kelly: Would park maintenance...blocking off`the park access? Would those guys be able to get in those... Hoff`man: You'd have to have a gate so vehicles could still go in there. To allow for maintenance of the structure. Lash: I don't know. I mean I feel like we need to some drastic measures. If we stay on the same path we've had it's going to be a continuation of the same problems. The neighbors want the park. The neighbors want to take their kids there. We need to try to deter the undesirables. Howe: At night only. Lash: At night, right. You know I'd love to see it open up for soccer practice or something but we're not going to be able to do that and deter the night time traffic so I don't know what else. Hoff`man: What do you think about a neighborhood questionnaire to start asking them some of these questions? Believe me, 90% of the people that use the park might drive there every day. If that's the case we're making a huge mistake. Kelly: What if they did a swing gate and have one of the neighbors or group of neighbors, what if they had the key? And they took care of opening up the park. Lash: It just makes that difficult. If the neighbor's not there or a neighbor doesn't do it or you know. Karlovich: You'd have to block all the way... Lash: Or bollards and chains so at least the city staff`could get into mow but I don't, you have to maintain it... Franks: How much did that sell if we wanted to pay for this property? Hoff`man: $60,000 an acre probably. Franks: Get it up to 80 and we might be able to do something. Lash: Do we want to try and close this, put together some type of plan and mail it out or suggestions to the neighbors and say after reviewing it, after talking with our crime specialist, after speaking with the deputies, after talking to Beth up here, these are some suggestions we have. Let us know how you feel. Which things would you support? Which things could you not live with? 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Karlovich: It seems like the do nothing approach is not a good option so, I don't know if we're ready to go forward. I don't know. Todd, do you want some more time to come back with suggestions to us as to what we should do? Hoffman: Well we can certainly do that or I think the most valuable piece of information out there for this neighborhood, they're obviously going to have to be engaged if the park's going to stay so we might as well engage them right now. Howe: Do you think you could write a letter? You know what we've been talking about as far as the gates and we could put something together. Hoff`man: Well I could put together a draft survey for you to come, bring back here and have you look at it before we send it out. Lash: My concem with dragging it out too long, school's going to be out in a couple weeks. Hoffman: Well I think it's a two phase approach. Beth and Sergeant Potts have said that they'll go ahead and go out there and start up their efforts again. Lash: I'd love to see them mark it as a hot spot, at lease the first week after school. Hoff`man: It's already on the list. Sergeant Potts said it's on the hot spot list today. Karlovich: But it seems like we shouldn't put the slides back out there until we barricade it? Franks: Not before we survey the neighborhood. Lash: Well I think that they would agree with us. They're not going to want brand new slides put in until we, until everyone has a little bit more of a comfort level. That they're just not going to get bumed the first week after schools out. They're not going to want to have that happen either so they're going to want to know that if we're fixing stuff`up, they have some shred of hope that it might last a little longer. Moes: I was just trying to think, and Todd you were mentioning the survey. I'm all for getting community input with a broad range of thoughts and ideas. What runs through my mind is, we send out a questionnaire or a communication to them is kind of...based on the input that we've gotten and the discussion that we've had, that option, the number option we come up with is, you know.., gate, prohibiting access, or limiting access to it other than by foot, by bike, etc. You know what are your reactions to that? So we've limited the scope of the current option at least and get the positive or negative feedback of that specific item and issue. Here's four options, come back with 25% on each side, we're still left with a do nothing mode versus maybe taking a step one way or the other on if 90% come back saying you can't put a gate there.., we're at least taking that option off` the plate then. Karlovich: I don't see how you can put a gate there then post no parking on Forest Avenue. I mean most of all this neighborhood seems to be...to the west when they talk about the... I mean this is a really I guess, it appears as though a lot of people I guess that actually use it are going to drive over. Howe: What if you put, this is out of our realm, no parking after 10:00 p.m.? Park hours. You spell it out. 10:00 to 6:00 a.m. you're not parking. And from 6:01 to 9:59 you can park here all you want. I don't know who makes that decision. 22 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Hoffman: We don't have any faith in the park rules being followed in the parking lot, why would we have any faith in the no parking signs being followed at the entrance to the gate? Lash: That was one of mine. Could it be no parking for, you know I'm not good at lengths, footages or anything like that but a certain area that that's closest to the park. Because if it's after hours and they're parking down in the vicinity of you know Betty's house and you know whoever else is right down there... call up and say there's people parking down here. They must be out of the park. Kelly: And maybe the sheriff`will take care of them. Karlovich: Yeah, if it says after 10:00 p.m., we can come and ticket all those cars. Howe: That's what I would do. Moes: ...is that a city call or is that a county call? Karlovich: I think you as the city could come up with your own parking rules for any of your city streets. Hoff`man: Oh sure, you can sign that no parking. Lash: Well I'd say at least, I'd say just no parking for a certain period. Just period. Just no parking. Hoff`man: It's a public hearing process just like any other no parking. The neighbors have to agree to it because it's an inconvenience for them as well. I've not met the new neighbor and there's I believe two lots there that will be built that will be in a similar situation from the lines where they're very close to the park so I don't know what their involvement is with enforcement issues in the park or what it will be in the future. Lash: I'd say in the letter, if you want to draft a letter to them and you can say immediate action that will happen is increased neighborhood watch and Beth will be contacting them to work on that. And increased patrol of at least the first part of June with enforcement emphasized and that we would like their feedback on what they would think of closing off` completely that entrance area to the park and potentially having, restricting parking in that area and then reviewing it in the fall to see... You know at that point I'd be willing to invest.., and put the slides back in and see how it goes. Hoff`man: I'll piggy back with Beth on her mailing for Neighborhood Watch and so we'll just do a singular mailing and she'll schedule a meeting at the same time I'll ask these questions. Rod, when you talked about specific expertise, this is one area that does have some background. When you take an area that is a trouble spot and you restrict it even further, often times as Jan says, it backfires. Now you simply have less good activity taking place there and it generates more bad activity. The sheriffs department, they're going to drive to the gate. If they don't see anything, they're going to tum around and leave and the activity just continues on and escalates and grows down in the parking lot area. Now they don't have access to it. Wherever they are they need to stop and get out of their vehicle and walk down to that location. Then they're putting themselves in a difficult position. They don't have back-up and they're out of their vehicle. Lash: And even if they drive down and listen. If they stop and just listen, if there's a party going you can hear it... If nothing else is going to come down on all the traffic going in and out because there's not going to be any place for them to park. 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Howe: Todd, where are the two lots going in? Hoff`man; Well you saw the one home there. So there's a new home right here. I'm not quite sure how the design lays out. I'll look at that. Howe: Well I would say that would be good. You could move the gate back because that makes another set of eyes that they're going to see if there's cars parked out there some night. I think it's secluded enough now that maybe you can get away with something, but if there's homes in there. Close enough to that road. I don't know the area well enough to know but it seems to me that someone's going to be paying more attention if they live there, right in there as opposed to somebody who's taking a walk in there. Lash: Unfortunately you need to have that brand new person in the position where all of a sudden they're the park watcher. You're not putting a house there to be the park patrol... Howe: No, but if it happens enough you're going to send a message. Hoffman: Oh yeah, and that's one of the things Jan that the enforcement people are saying. I mean you can't have it both ways. This is the environment you live in and you either get involved or. Lash: But we need to try and make our efforts too. You know we need to direct our sheriff`needs to do their part, the neighbors need to do their part. It's going to have to be a 3 way thing here. We need to be creative so, I don't know. Karlovich: It seems like we're going to have to try something different even if this tums out to be wrong. Hoff`man: Boy, I don't know ifI like that philosophy. Lash: But if it's temporary, you can say this isn't working...and we haven't spent you know $25,000 on some elaborate gate system. Hoff`man: I don't want to msh to judgment. Lash: Well...no parking. Hoff`man: I think that's a good move. Lash: We'll tum it back on them and see. Hoff`man: If some of the commissioners can attend the Neighborhood Watch, that will be great. You know the meeting, I'll attend that meeting. Franks: We'll get the mailing? Hoff`man: Yes. Send you a mailing. Lash: ...make sense to you? Betty Lang: I mean it's a lot of ideas but I think the best one was do a temporary thing and see what happens. And then get a feel for what these people, all the neighbors want to do. 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Lash: And put it back on our agenda in October and send out a mailing in September on how do you think it went. To the neighbors. Moes: Trying something that comes back with it wasn't the right solution, at least it was an elimination of another opportunity. Betty Lang: Excuse me, I did have one question though. I thought that Herman Field Park was donated as a park... I mean I don't know if you're serious or what but thinking of selling it? Lash: I don't think we were at all serious. Hoff`man: But there's nor restrictions on it Betty. Betty Lang: Oh there wasn't any? Hoff`man: Not that I recall. Betty Lang: I thought that's why we started from square one because there was no other option that we had to make that into a park because it was given that way or whatever. Karlovich: I don't' think that there is restrictions after a certain number of years. There's been cases where the city can either acquire title to the property and use it for something different. Betty Lang: Excuse me, I have one more comment. When this park idea first came up, there was a second option for an entrance but I don't remember now where it is or where it was. Hoffman: Itwas off of Oriole. Betty Lang: No, I think it was the other side. Hoffman: Over here? Betty Lang: Yeah, it was on... Hoffman: There was a pedestrian access here that we talked about. Betty Lang: What was it? Hoffman: A pedestrian access. A trail access from that cul-de-sac and then the other drive access they talked about was at this location. Betty Lang: Oh okay. I didn't realize it was just a pedestrian. Lash: It does get relatively steep... Franks: Betty just for your own clarification, and for mine too, the reason why I halfheartedly suggested selling off`part of the property was to make an example of the thinking outside of the box a little bit in trying to solve this problem instead of running around inside trying to do what's already been done. 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Betty Lang: Oh no, I mean I don't have a problem with that but I just thought before we get too far with that, I thought there was a restrictions on it. No, that's fine. Lash: Thanks for coming in. Betty Lang: Oh thank you for all the ideas. Lash: I need to see if someone is able to make a motion to direct staff`what to do with this. Hoff`man: Can hardly buy a motion around here tonight. Moes: What do we do? ...we had the three items. The Neighborhood Watch. Howe: Yeah, call a Neighborhood Watch. Do a survey of sorts. Karlovich: Are we doing a survey or not? Lash: Let's let suggestions or proposals and just see what we get and to have the Neighborhood Watch and to have the cops down there. Note the hot spot for the first couple weeks in June and signing. Karlovich: Can you make a motion Jan? Lash: No I can't. Moes: Well I'll take a shot at it. I move that we direct staff`to work with Beth in promoting and accelerating the Neighborhood Watch activity that's currently going on with the Herman Field Park. To work with Sergeant Dave Potts to increase the patrol as well as where appropriate issue citations. Tickets if appropriate for activity that's occurring down there, whether it's between park hours. Especially after park hours. And then also to incorporate with the literature that Beth is going to be sending out, a letter proposing that our current option at this time to address some of the issues at the park is to put up a temporary gate limiting access to the park strictly to put...and their feedback at the end of the summer. And limiting parking at the gate entrance... Karlovich: Make a friendly amendment to direct staff`to investigate where we can put the gate and we'll try a temporary gate... Lash: Okay. Is there a second to that motion? Howe: I'll second it. Moes moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to do the following items related to Herman Field Park: 1. Work with Beth Hoiseth in accelerating the Neighborhood Watch for this area. 2. Work with Sergeant Dave Potts in increased patrol of the park. 3. Incorporate literature with letters to be mailed to the neighbors addressing some of the issues and that a temporary gate will be installed. 26 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 4. Investigate where a permanent gate can be installed. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 7 to 0. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. Lash: We moved up the commission member presentations to the next item. Anyone have any commission member presentations? Franks: Thanks for doing that. I do have some other...I need to get to so I appreciate you doing that but I wanted to personally welcome Jack and Tom to the commission. I look forward to leaming more about each of you and to serving with you as well. And I think you'll find that this is a pretty, as Jay recently found again, a pretty good group of people to work with. I'm sure you'll be a good addition to that as well. You are kind of coming on at the end of some unique circumstances though where it's usual that we seem to have some more transition so if you pick up some tension or whatever it's that the two departing members, we really haven't had much of an opportunity to have some closure with, but I think we'll be able to work through that without too much difficulty. Which brings up my other comment is that in the time that I've been a commission member, the process of reappointment or appointment of new members has really not followed the way that this one has occurred and there's two members that you're replacing that I'm sure you'll live up to that were very respected and very well liked. Very talented., very good commissioners of character and my feeling is that the procedure that has brought the two of you here in a respectful manner, has also led to their not being appointed and as equally disrespectful a manner. And I would like to propose again that the council reconsider the arrangements that have been in place most the time that I've been a commissioner and that's that the commission itself review the applicants and make recommendations to the council. This happened with, I just leamed your names tonight and to me that didn't seem fair to you. Or necessarily...and just leaming that two of my respected colleagues just last week weren't going to be sitting in those chairs was equally painfully painful to me. As I'm sure as exciting to you to be here tonight. So Chair, I'd like to thank you for moving up the item on the agenda. I do have to go. Again I do welcome you and I promise not to be so somber at the next meeting but I do hope that as a body also we will find some way to have some appropriate closure for the leavings of some trusted and respected colleagues and good friends as well. Thanks. Lash: Thanks Rod. Howe: See you Rod. Lash: Anyone else with a commission member presentation? Howe: Well I agree with Rod in some respects. I think that, no offense to my new colleagues. The system was somewhat flawed this time. I do think Fred and Jim experience will be missed and I do look forward to working with both of you. Lash: And I'll join that. That discussion and again Tom and Jack, you're very welcome and we really appreciate citizen participation in our commissions. It's really a necessity to our city. However, in this particular situation I truly believe that the property procedure and policy of our city was not followed because our commission was excluded from the process and the resolution in city policy in 1995 that was adopted was that the commission would do interviews and pass on the recommendations. That specific policy was not followed so I'm going to respectfully request that this be reviewed by the City Council and since the mayor's here I'd be happy to hear her feelings on this issue of policy not being followed. 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Mayor Jansen: Thank you Madam Chair, I appreciate your acknowledging me as the liaison for the council this evening. I will certainly address the issue of whether that was proper procedure or not. It certainly is the process that has been followed in the past and in reviewing that process with the city manager our discussion revolved around whether or not it was really a necessity considering the number of positions that were being interviewed for and the number of candidates. We will be reviewing that procedure and possibly making whatever changes need to be noted within ordinance. It is council's prerogative to follow whatever process the council is comfortable with. We certainly realize what your recommendation would have been coming up from the commission with the two reappointed members. It puts the commission in a position that isn't necessarily unbiased if you would. The council interviewed all of the candidates realizing there were two positions open. We had 4 candidates. A fifth had dropped out I believe was the count. Jay bouncing back and forth between Planning and Park and Rec. It certainly puts us in a position of making a tough decision when we have such dedicated commissioners. We had a conversation. I acknowledged to both Mr. Berg and Mr. Manders that the philosophy, at least stated by myself throughout the commission appointments, meaning Planning Commission also, is that when we have so many interested members of our community who would like to get involved in our process, it's difficult to then limit the ability for them to participate by having these seats remain filled for 20 years, 12 years. Whether or not we can come up with a term limit or some sort of guidance on the positions so that there is some tumover and availability for participation by more community members. That is a conversation that the council will need to have. It's one that I've encouraged for at least the last 2 years. The more involvement that we can encourage from the community, the better. We need more members of the community and the excitement in Jack's voice and Tom's voice when I called them was equal to the disappointment of the two members who weren't reappointed. So it is a difficult call to make and if there were a policy in place that better prepares commissioners for that philosophy, that is what I'm trying to encourage. It's a difficult position. I did try to express to the two reappointment candidates that that was at least my philosophy so that there would not be a surprise. And it was the same philosophy that I stated at the Planning Commission interviews so you know my apologies that it came as a surprise to all of you. I realize that it may have been a disappointment. I appreciate each of you having acknowledged to your new members, you know your pleasure if you would at serving with them as we go forward and I certainly hope that there will be a mentorship that occurs. I know that you have been a very tight group. It's difficult to see friends tum over. You know obviously, and it gets to be that way and the comraderie that develops on a commission is wonderful and I hope that we can continue to have more members of our community experience it. And you're one commission that I very much have appreciated working with. I appreciate all the effort that you put into your positions. Your dedication. The community definitely benefits by your sense of community and comraderie. And again my apologies if you were disappointed. I assumed that you probably would be, but the philosophy of getting more people involved, I think the community is definitely a better place the more people and more participation that we can gain so we will be looking at and evaluating any sort of changes that we need to make so that everyone is better prepared as we go through the next round of appointments. But thanks for your comments. Lash: Thanks Mayor Jansen .... your comments and your insights into participation by our community members. I think it's a very, very important part to have those people. I do respectfully disagree that, personally I do not as a commission and taxpayer, I do not feel that it is the City Council's prerogative to deviate from policy that was established unless you change the policy prior. So the policy was not followed. The ordinance was not followed in this particular instance. And I don't think it's your prerogative to deviate. Mayor Jansen: I acknowledge your comments and it was discussed with the city manager and we did follow what we needed to follow to have the appointments be legitimate so, from there we will take care of it. 28 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Lash: No policy standing now, as I understand it is that the commission is involved in the interviews. Mayor Jansen: I would have to pull that out and take a look at your's that you're quoting but I do know that that was practiced previous. Thank you. Lash: Thank you. I would appreciate a comment in response to that on the record, thank you. Okay, let's move onto our next items which are recreation program reports. RECREATION PROGRAM REPORTS: 2001 SUMMER ACTIVITIES. Lash: Comments or questions for Corey from anyone? Okay, will you thank Corey for us Todd? Hoffman: I sure will. 2001 LAKE ANN PARK OPERATIONS. Lash: The next one is the 2001 Lake Ann Park operations and that's with Jerry. And congratulations... being a new father and anyone have any comments they want passed onto Jerry regarding any of these issues? Howe: Todd is the lake, I was there last week. It seems pretty high. Is it receding a bit? I mean are we worried about the height of Lake Ann? It's not a problem is it? Hoffman: The water level? No. It's high water. The beach is limited but it's not out of it's banks yet. Howe: Thank you. Lash: Any other comments? Karlovich: The only other comment I have is just reading every one of Jerry's memo's puts you in a good mood. Something we all could leam a little something from. He always seems so upbeat. Hoffman: Quite optimistic young man. Lash: He has a fun job so. Well I mean he does fun things. Hoffman: That's right. T he new baby's name is Bryerly Grace. 7 V2 pounds, 19 ~2 inches. Bom last Friday moming about 10:30 so. ADMINISTRATIVE: 2001 SUMMER SOFTBALL LEAGUE. Lash: Things going on here that look good. Do you have comments to pass onto Jerry with that? Okay. COMMITTEE MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. Lash: Mr. Howe. 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 Howe: Thank you. I don't know if you're aware of this, but Dave Huffman, the 5K race that we just started last year was our first year and I just had the privilege of coming from a meeting this evening before we met at Herman Field Park. This year's race is September the 15th so I do expect you to start training tonight when you get home. No alcohol tonight. I want you to start training. And last year we were certainly lacking in the Viking's participation. Well this year, I don't know what happened but they are, I just, tried to write as fast as I could. They're going to let us go to the three preseason games and give us a tent on the plaza with pictures of Dave Huff`man to tell people about our race. Dave Huff`man was a commissioner. I took his seat a long time ago. They're going to put us on their web site. A half a dozen cheerleaders are going to run the race .... they're going to put an announcement on the Jumbotron. They're going to put us in the program. A free advertisement. We've got Joe Schmidt signed up. Joe's going to put us on Sports Wrap. Ragnar is thinking about running his motorcycle to lead the race. They think that some of the Vikings players will actually be here because they have an away game Monday night so they don't leave until Sunday so some of, they can't run but they might be here. And we're going to have different color...one of the colors talked about was... Just incredible. I also did some work on the round house. I got a lead on some free or cheap lumber and I did talk to Deanna yesterday and they don't have a contractor yet but they're still very excited and they want to work very hard for it. Hoffman: She e-mailed me today and said they have a potential contractor. He wants to get inside the building and look at it. Howe: Well I'm on the lead so that's all I have. Kelly: Can I ask a question about that race. I ran that race last year. I waited for years for a race to happen in Chanhassen. It was a great race. And it was an ideal day. I like the idea that it was a point to point race. It started at Lake Ann and you actually used the foot bridge. Probably introduced a lot of Chanhassen residents to the foot bridge. Is there anyway, I know I've done a few 5K. Is there any way you can incorporate like a kid's run? You know follow the 5K with... Howe: As the race gets bigger I think we can do that but right now we want to focus on making the 5K the best we can and we're all new at this. I mean I'm a runner and we all have people who ran and this is what I would want for a perfect race but I think until we really get that up and off`the ground consistently, then yeah we could have a 10K, a kiddie race. We did talk about a kiddie race but I think right now frankly... organizational skill. I won't say that in a year we won't have one. People did ask for that for their kids. And it's something we talked about. That's all I have. Lash: My congratulations. Howe: It's not me. I'm not doing this. Lash: Any other commission member committee reports? Okay. Todd? I'm trying to recall our status on the Memorial Park. Where do we stand on that? Now that Fred's gone. Hoffman; We have a plan that will be submitted to the City Council as part of the budget considerations for 2002. And then we are also waiting on the trail development on the east, or excuse me west side so we're waiting for Century Boulevard to be complete. Those lots could sell and the trail could be completed early on but you had voiced an interest in seeing things happen before that time. And so you want to get kind of a two step approach. Keep moving but then look at those other things. We met with Southwest Metro, staff`met with Southwest Metro. At looking at them building the parking lot there as a park and ride. The location's too small and so they don't want to do that where that would have allowed 30 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 us to build a free parking lot. So we continue to move forward. The Girl Scouts put bluebird houses out there and so it's our first project, even though it's not officially tumed over to Memorial Park as yet. Lash: Are we, now I suppose it will depend on how it goes over with the City Council that we had kicked around the idea of a potential next spring kick-ofl~ Is that still? Hoff`man: Oh it still could happen, yeah. Lash: Ijustwantedtoknowifwehadkindofatimeline. Somewhere we could...Okay, thanks. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Lash: I have one quick question on Mr. Gates' letter. Have you been able to respond... Hoff`man: I have not. Lash: Are you planning on? Hoff`man: I sure can. Lash: At the very least we can call him. It's definitely something we're aware of and discuss and we'll probably continue to discuss because we feel it's something that most people would like. We just haven't found the right facility for it. Hoff`man; I'll have to look up his address again but I can sure find him. Karlovich: There are some commission members that don't agree with the regulation that we have. Lash: The regulation of what? Oh, the pooper scooper? Karlovich: No, having dogs in the park. Lash: Oh. Anybody else have questions for Todd? Howe: Todd, when does Jerry come back? Hoffman: I think he's back today for halfa day and he'll be back again on Thursday a little bit... Lash: Okay, any other questions or comments? Hoff`man: I have an update for you. The Lake Ann building is complete on the interior. The exterior's going to take a couple more months to re-build that section of road. Take the grading and do the grading so we're going to have a major headache here for the first 2 months of operations at Lake Ann. That's going to generate some complaints. Already today, well 2 days ago they had it blocked off; NSP to trench the power across the road and the first person to drive in and meet the no entrance into the park just took a right, took a left across the infield fence on ballfield number 1 and just took off`for the beach across ballfield number 1. The very first car. So we pondered creating an altemative road across the edge of the soccer field but quickly dismissed that idea. There is going to be one single day where we have to close down the park entirely to allow them to pave that new section of entrance road. If you can imagine how they're going to coordinate this work, they're going to do their grading. The parking lot side of the 31 Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 22, 2001 building. Put their Class V down. They need to haul all that dirt out of there. That entrance road is going to be a mighty gravely mess by the time that's all done. Then they have to build that parking lot and then back out of the park and build the road the last thing so it's not the first thing that goes in. It's the last thing that goes in so you'll be seeing that road in it's current condition up through July probably so, be aware of that. When it's all said and done it will be very nice. The corresponding issue to that is the roadways and the parking lots in Lake Ann are breaking up and the current city manager, or the outgoing city manager was not in favor of that project. We will again, I will be bringing it up for the 2002 budget. That needs attention. The road and the parking lots. The existing road is now some 35 years old and so it's lived it's life. It's time for a new asphalt road and parking lots and some curb in there. Some storm sewer improvements so look for that as a part of your budget discussions for 2002. Lash: Okay, thanks. Anyone else have anything? Okay, is there a motion to adjoum? Howe moved, Karlovich seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 32