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PRC 2003 05 28CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MAY 28, 2003 Acting Chair Spizale called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Amy O'Shea, Jack Spizale, Paula Atkins, Susan Robinson and Glenn Stolar (Rod Franks arrived late to the meeting.) MEMBERS ABSENT: Tom Kelly STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent PUBLIC PRESENT: Kent Ludford Laura, Stephen & Paul Graves Joni Nelson Grant & Tim Moore Jim Manders Melissa Gilman Jeff & Peter Fliss Mike, Connor, Ryan & Linda Howe Clay Muhlenhake Tyler Farrell Jason & Barbara Kayati 8615 Valley View Court 8634 Valley View Court 8610 Valley View Court 1812 Valley Ridge Trail So. 6791 Chaparral Lane Chanhassen Villager 8710 Osprey Lane 2169 Stone Creek Drive 8040 Erie Avenue 2243 Boulder Road 8715 Valley View Place APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Stolar: Just a couple things on, I guess it goes under presentations. I should present from the City Council last night. I was at the meeting, so if we want to add that. And then also, I was wondering Todd maybe you could help us. Based on the meeting last night, do we want to have at least an initial discussion on the conceal and carry law impact? Oh, you probably had gone by then. Hoffman: Yep. Certainly you can. Stolar: I don't expect any action but at least to start the discussion. The fire chief discussed it in his presentation. Hoffman: Okay. Stolar: Would that be administrative item e? 5(e)? Hoffman: Actually it would be a commission member presentation to place it on a future agenda. Stolar: Okay. Spizale: Okay, anybody else? Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. COMMUNITY OPEN MICROPHONE OPEN HOUSE. Spizale: Right now let's open up to the audience. If anybody has, would like to come up to the podium. State your name and address and what you've got to say. Hoffman: First one's always the toughest. Spizale: I see a lot of people ready to get up. Here we go. Paul Graves: Hi. My name's Paul Graves. I just wanted to, 8634 Valley View Court in Chanhassen. I wanted to address the paint ball situation that was addressed in the newspaper, in the Chan Villager a couple weeks ago and just simply would like to just kind of state our thoughts on that. We were playing paint ball in the Bluff Creek corridor in the area that was pictured in the newspaper with our family and our neighbors throughout this entire year and it's really been for all of us a pretty, real good positive experience. It's helped teach responsibility and safety to the kids. It' s been just a truckload of fun for us. We've gone down and the newspaper I thought was somewhat deceiving in the article that was presented. In talking about littering and sort of a disrespect for the area, and I think kind of quite the contrary. That there's been a lot of respect. The kids have gone down and built bunkers in areas to play in. They've always plated with supervision in that area. It's been a great area to play in because it's far removed from the path. It has been one, just for safety sake. They've always played with proper supervision, whether it be in the case, at least with our family and in our neighborhood, it's always required a parent to be down there or appropriate supervision when they've played. There was some talk about the people causing littering and so on and so forth. I think Michael actually had some demonstration of that that they're biodegradable, and I just can't stress enough how much fun we've had with this and what a good experience it has been altogether for us as kind of a whole neighborhood group. Had just a ton of fun playing down there. And essentially didn't feel disrespectful like kind of the way that the newspaper had put it, and would like to ask for consideration for a variance or allowing people to continue possibly in that area. The area provides good shelter and a lot of fun. It was set back where it didn't feel like we were interrupting anybody else's, occasionally somebody might walk through. The times that we were down there, we always showed respect when somebody was coming through. We stopped playing. Let them kind of do their thing, and then would continue play when they felt. And would just like to I guess publicly say that we would like some reconsideration of the rules around the people in that area. Spizale: Okay, thanks for your comments. Next person. Kent Ludford: My name is Kent Ludford, 8615 Valley View Court. We have my son with me tonight, if you wouldn't mind him stepping up. I'm not sure, and I believe Michael brought this stuff along to, in case you're not familiar with what paint ball is. The projectiles are sent out by compressed air. Just to put it in quotes, the paint ball industry does not call them guns. They're not paint guns, they're markers. The device that shoots the paint ball, which are these little 68 caliber, little biodegradable pellets and they have a little of paint in it. Do you want to explain Michael? Michael Ludford: These are just the paint balls that the...shoots. When they get wet they dissolve and they're like 99 percent water and one percent paint. This is one broken up and it's like, it doesn't stain anything so in the rain it will all just wash off and then it disintegrates... This is a paint ball mask. It's made especially, there's special stuff on here made for paint balls Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 so if you get shot it won't break. Then on the markers there's a little safety, just like on any regular gun. And this is a paint ball stopper for, you plug it into your barrel so if you pull the trigger and the safety's not on, you have this in your barrel so the paint ball won't fly anywhere else where you don't want them to go. So that's pretty much it. Hoffman: You have a video you wanted to show? Michael Ludford: Yeah. Kent Ludford: When this is in the barrel then all the other players know he can't do anything. The lens in here is specially made for these. This is actually stronger than safety glasses that construction workers use, plus it's got full ear, mouth and chin protection, visor. This whole tape that he's going to play is only a 10 minute take, and this one we got his first starter kit marker. Came with that and with the helmet was second but this videotape came with the marker that we bought. It's a Brass Eagle...manufacturer of paint ball equipment. Spizale: Maybe Michael could pass the, could we see the paint balls too and see what they look like and the solution. Thank you. Kent Ludford: Just one question, we had...a couple ounces and you can tell, it's almost starting to break down on that... (A video was shown at this point in the meeting.) Paul Graves: ...Safety is an issue. There are other people in outskirt Chan, 2 or 3 acre woods, open fields and they've got an ideal situation for private land. We at Bluff Creek can't do it. So we were using the city land, unknown that there was something stopping us. We apologize for doing something that we had thought was perfectly fine because we weren't being destructive, at least our group was not. We always had a parent down there with them. That was an ideal situation. That was a set up part specifically for the purpose. It looked to me about the size of a hockey rink, maybe a little bit bigger but now you can see why the kids needed the trees, the little bunkers. They need places to maneuver. To take cover. And that's the ideal situation. Small piece of wooded area. Could be roped off. We could put fences around it. Some signs requiting the safety issues, but there is a lot of people in Chanhassen that really enjoy this sport. If the commission can do something to make it easier for them to enjoy it, the closest park that I know of that you go out and pay 20, 30, 40 dollars for an afternoon, you're going way up to Eagan or Lakeville. There's nothing that I know of anywhere in the close proximity. So after school they want to go out and play for half an hour, you can't run them to each side of the metro area. So that's where our dilemma is. We'd like to see some controls. Make it somewhat legal so the kids can have some fun, and there's good learning experience. Thank you. Spizale: Thanks for your comments. Hoffman: We'll acknowledge the presence of Chairman Franks. Franks: On time as usual. Jason Kayati: My name is Jason Kayati, 8715 Valley View Place, Chanhassen. I'm not requesting anything down in that specific area but some place in Chanhassen, maybe the city could set aside somewhere for a local paint ballers to play. I've got a couple good reasons for that. It gives somebody, or it gives us a place to play when we want to play after school or Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 whenever, and it will attract more players around like Chanhassen, Chaska, Victoria area to play there. And if the city wanted to they could set up a post where they can sell paint balls and ret-fils, C02, do that. It just gives us something to do after school where we're not bored during the summer. Over summer vacation we have a place, things to do and that's about it. Audience: I'm 10 and I play paint ball. It's a really fun sport if it's played properly and it's really safe. Usually we play at Bluff Creek after school, or on the weekends. And I play with all my brothers and some of their friends. Franks: Thanks. Barbara Kayati: My name is Barbara Kayati and I live at 8715 Valley View Place, and my son Jason was just up here speaking. A couple points I wanted to clarify in the article that appeared in the Villager that I think kind of didn't truly portray what really was happening. It had alluded to the littering that was found back there. That litter has been there for a long, long time. We've lived in that area for almost 9 years and my husband's gone back there with my son and said that that litter and trash has been there for quite some time. The other thing the article alluded to was parents didn't know where their children were and what they were doing. I knew where my son was at all times and what he was doing. Just like Mr. Ludford said, we didn't, we weren't aware that that was against the rules and illegal in Chanhassen for them to play paint ball. And just what I'd like to ask the city is to consider an area where these kids can go and play paint ball. Thank you. Franks: Thank you. Tim Moore: Hi. My name is Tim Moore. I live at 1812 Valley Ridge Trail South. One of my sons, I actually have two boys 15 and 14 that play down there. I would ask that the city take a good look at this sport and allow an area to be set aside, like you've done progressively for the skate boarders. This would not cost a lot, and the reason I say that is, is that the area would not need anything to, you saw, if you saw the article, what the boys did with the wood that was down there. You know all the carts, and you could see the age group that it does cross, even Mr. Graves has said he's played. I know I have played. I've not played down there, but it is something that I think that could be done relatively inexpensively and I think you can get a lot of kids who actually, if you did need to have people to be there to monitor that, you could get a lot of children to do that. And probably for free. And when I saw that, if you do charge a fee for it, to help replace like the grass and just keep it up, you can get a lot of kids that would want to come there and then maybe they would be able to do it for nothing and be able to use the area as well for nothing. So you charge the children 10 bucks, 15 bucks, 20 bucks. Like you say, they go to a lot of places that can cost you $50 pretty quickly, and if you charge you know $25-30 and you have an attendant there that's 18, I'm sure he'd want to play, he or she, and they could maybe play for free. That type of thing to help offset some of those costs that would be involved with that, but I know how aggressive you were with doing the skateboarding and boys really appreciated that when they came on line. And I also know there was an expense in paving that and buying a lot of equipment for that, but I think it's paid off in the long run. And I think that something like that could be done very inexpensively. It can be done in an area that is away from everyone else. You probably would even get adults to come there. I'd probably be willing to do it you know, to spend weekends there at some point. And like the article said, I am one of the adults that let my children go down there unbeknownst of not checking in before hand. Claiming ignorance on that part, but we did know where our children were and we were very, we knew who they were with. At the most with my boys, there was about 8 kids at a time and it seemed like they never crossed paths with the other children that were down there that were Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 younger. The older boys never played with the younger boys. They always seemed to come at different times and so forth, and I don't think that in that area, that particular area, no one was at risk of being hurt because there is a pretty dense as far as any shots coming out of there. But hopefully you consider that, thank you. Franks: Thank you. Jeff Fliss: I don't have the water because I'm long winded or anything. My name is Jeff Fliss. I live at 8710 Osprey Lane and I walk through that area a lot and I walked through that area before they started playing. My son plays down there and that area was really a mess before, and I do agree that the article was really slanted. It came across as a very pristine nature area. It wasn't. If you walk out there now there's old machinery, equipment, rusted pieces, fencing and really that's probably a lot more dangerous than what's happening out there right now. You look at these kids, they're all good kids. Good students, and I do really think that they've done a really good job of identifying an area that gets them out of the way of everybody. If you look at that specific area, it's down in kind of a hollow. There's a set of railroad tracks on one side, which prevents them from encroaching on anybody's private property, and the possibility of hitting any homes. And because they're down in that hollow it's pretty much contained so I think they've done a very good job of finding an area that they can stay out of everybody's way and do the thing that they like to do. And I do think that you should give them the benefit of the doubt and give them an opportunity to find a place to play in Chanhassen. Thanks. Franks: Thanks. Joni Nelson: Hi. I'm Joni Nelson. I live at 8610 Valley View Court, and my neighbors have been playing out there. My son wanted to play out there. I was a little not sure, but saw how much enjoyment that they had, so I just want to again go over some of the article because I think that's probably really not showing the full facts and kind of tough in the way that it was written. First of all, right. The parents were not aware that it was illegal on public property, as well as private property, that the paint balls are not allowed as per the article. Why would I think that it's illegal? Because I've seen hunters with orange vests on and real guns. We also have the conceal and carry guns right now and so to be real concerned about paint balls, I don't know if any of you have ever played this sport. I have played this sport and I have been hit and I have had welts but I've also played softball and I've also played baseball and those welts actually take longer than a paint ball welt to go away. In fact I have one on my leg right now from 4 weeks ago. Franks: We'll take your word for it. Joni Nelson: But I was happy that Paul brought out really that there hasn't been any crossfire. That there has been parents that have been supervising. Kent even talked about how their paint markers, not a true gun. Mike was good at demonstrating that the paint will wash away. It's not going to stain the sidewalk or the building sides and so forth. I too did not like the fact that there's garbage. There shouldn't be garbage. Kids need to know what the boundaries are and so forth. The rec center should not be hit by paint balls and so forth and I think those rules do need to be set. I was curious that we had a concentration on that path that people looked at, it was probably 15 to 20 feet away to find that paint ball field where if you just look 5 feet by the creek you will see barbwire. And we have talked about barbwire in our area for quite a while when those paths first went in and that was probably 5 years ago and even when we moved in 8 years ago we talked about the barbwire. Do you know who's actually taking care of the barbwire? You're looking at them over there. Do you know who's actually cleaned up some of that area? You' re looking at them over there. So should they clean up what's been there? Sure. And there Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 is rusted, old machinery out them. So I do look at this as a positive of what it's done for the neighborhood. It has brought people together. In our particular development there's 70 houses and when we were first built we tried to get the city and our developer to actually put in a playground. No one passed on that but we had a neighbor who built an unusually large playground for our neighborhood. We have parents out there that are scrapping the pond off so the kids can go out there and play ice hockey. We've got parents out there in the cul-de-sac playing street hockey. Our parents are very involved with our kids and they do know where they're at. And when I look at all the things that they have to do, I mean we're looking at kids that are from age 10 to 15. They can't drive vehicles. They're on their bike. Our neighborhood actually can't bike that far to the skate park. So we are looking at some kind of activity around our area. Would I want my kids to bike over to the skate park? No, I feel that's too far. Would I prefer my kids to play paint ball than go to Lake Ann? I'm sorry, I would. We've had a lot of things happen at Lake Ann and paint ball is much safer. Problems arise, and as my company has trained me, problems mean opportunities and we must understand them in order to provide an opportunity and a solution. I do not feel that tearing down and vandalizing the forts that these kids have spent hours on really resolve the problem. We actually need to find some kind of activity that will keep these 10 to 15 year old kids occupied. And this article is telling us that we should send our kids to another town. They should go to Buffalo or to Eagan to play. What are we really telling them? Chanhassen isn't willing to allow them some kind of activity. We're telling them to leave our city. Aren't we saying that already with our rec center. We go to Chaska and we go to Eden Prairie. We have 500 acres of open space out there. We pride ourselves in Chanhassen about that open space. We also have a tough budget. This is very cheap land. Very cheap sport. My kids are responsible. They purchased their gun and they purchase all their supplies. They're held responsible. We can also look at corporate America. Where is corporate America sending their employees to learn strategic planning? It's to the paint ball fields. That's where I learned how to play. The only disappointment I have tonight is we actually don't have any girls that have played this sport yet. Thank you. Tyler Ferrell: Hi. My name's Tyler Ferrell. Stephen Graves: Hi, I'm Stephen Graves. Tyler Ferrell: And we're coming to the stand to tell you why we like paint ball. You go fa:st. Stephen Graves: We've had lots of fun with our friends and our family playing paint ball and it's fun and a great opportunity. Tyler Ferrell: Just recently it was my dad's birthday and we got him a paint ball gun so he could play along with us. And he couldn't play with us anymore because the rock, or the article in the paper and we're hoping that you can change that so that we can play again, instead of having to go out to a way, way out, just to play for half an hour. This weekend we're going to Wisconsin to play and we're going to...Wisconsin so. Franks: Good job. Kent Ludford: Frank, you missed we had a 10 minute video. Franks: I saw a good portion of the video. Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Kent Ludford: I was going to say we're welcome to leave it if you want to watch it or if anybody wants to watch it again to catch any fine points. You're more than welcome to just let Todd or Jerry know to get it back to me. Franks: My personal experience is I've caught a few of those fine points right in the goggles so, maybe it doesn't compare. Is that, anyone else wanting to come up and talk about paint ball? We've, okay. We have. Tyler Raymond: My name is Tyler Raymond and I live at 35...Parkland Way, Chanhassen and I don't own a paint ball gun but I've been down there and I've seen them playing there and it seems like they have a lot of fun and I think you should give them an area to play. Franks: Thanks Tyler. Okay. You know we're open for all topics tonight. Not anything that needs to be on the agenda. We just really want to hear from people and if there's anybody else that's out there who has something that they want to bring up, just like this paint ball issue, I really want to invite you to come on up and we'd like to hear what you have to say so. Jacob Graves: Hi. My name is Jacob Graves. I own a paint ball gun and it's just a really fun sport and we wouldn't want to drive way out to the places. Franks: Thanks Jacob. They didn't help too much with the laughing did they? That's a lot to get up and speak. Clay Muhlenhake: First of all my name's Clay Muhlenhake. I'm the President of our Chaska Area Football Association and very few kids are very passionate, as passionate and as willing to get up as you guys are to talk about your sport. I've played paint ball and it's a blast. And it is corporate America teaching strategy and when you get shot right away, you think wow. I thought I was doing the right thing. That's not the reason I'm here tonight, but I'm glad I. got to hear you guys' point of view because the article was slanted. Now I know both sides of the story. No matter how thin you slice a piece of meat there's always two sides. I'm just here to talk about football and the program. The youth football program. We've been, I met with Jerry Ruegemer and Todd several times about our football program, and just want to put in a bid to try to get some fields done. We're going to put together a letter to offer some financial support to try and get a lit 100 yard field. Right now our current program has about 500 kids involved, all in District 112, and once you get into the 6th, 7th and 8th grade you play on a 100 yard field. We don't have a lit 100 yard field other than the high school field right now. We've had conversations with Jerry and Todd about making an offer, trying to get some money raised to put together a 100 yard lit field, so every Thursday night our 7t~ and 8th graders don't have to leave town and get home late that evening. So just like to consider that. We will be putting together a letter within the next month or so and maybe hopefully by the 2004 season we'll...share the responsibility, as well as the wealth of a program that' s great. And if you guys aren't signed up for football. Franks: Thank you. Well there's some faces out there that haven't stood up yet so, anybody else have anything more that they'd like to add? Bring it up in front of the commission. Except for you. Ron Roeser: Hi, I'm Ron Roeser. I live at 222 Chan View and I'm a biker, not a paint ball person. Franks: And Ron is a former Park commission members. Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Ron Roeser: Yeah. Hoffman: City council member. Ron Roeser: And city council. I've done it all, no. I was just wondering about, you know you get down to the end of the big hill there, is that Audubon? If there's any plan to finish that bike trail over to the comer where it picks up on Chaska's trail. That and Galpin ends kind of suddenly too. Are we thinking about putting trails or finishing that? Franks: Well it's all part of a comprehensive trail plan and what we've been working on is as the parcels of land develop and we're able to acquire the trail through the development of the property we connect all the pieces, but what that's left us with is, just like what you're saying. Trails in one spot and then a gap. Ron Roeser: It abruptly ends and all of a sudden you've got to go on Lyman, which is kind of terror trail. Hoffman: Lyman Boulevard is a county road, and we've been waiting and waiting and waiting, just as you have, for the county to go ahead and upgrade that road. It's a cooperative project between the county and the city. It needs to happen and all of the trails have dumped fight down onto Lyman starting at 101 you pick that up there and Powers, Audubon and Galpin and Lyman is really seen as the east/west connector to allow for all those loops to come back and forth and also to get down into Chaska. So independent of the county getting the road built, the trail won't go in so we're simply waiting for the county to kick that project out. Ron Roeser: Yeah, I was sure you were aware of that. I just thought I'd point it out. Also the tunnel under Powers Boulevard's about the ugliest thing you can fide through. I'm just wondering if they have any plans of painting it. Why not put a mural in there or do something but it's really ugly. The other tunnels are great. You know really nice. So, and I love the trails. Franks: Thanks. Come on up. There's no one out there that wants to come and talk about a dog park? Alrighty. Barbara Kayati: I own a dog. That would be nice. Franks: Well come on up and get it on the record. You can have more than one issue tonight. Oh yeah. Barbara Kayati: Okay. Barbara Kayati, 8715 Valley View Place. I'm a dog owner and I'd love to see a dog park here. A fenced in area where we can let our dogs mn. So I'd like you to consider that. Franks: Great. We'd like to see that too. Well anybody else? Sure. Audience: I'd just like to commend the commission, I've lived in Chanhassen for about 8 years but I' ve had a business here for over, our 20th year now. And you have one fantastic park system and I know I personally have sponsored a number of ball teams. I have a men' s team for 18 years and a ladies team for maybe 15 and 16 years and the people who mn your park department on a daily level are fantastic. I think they need a hand. Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Franks: I agree with that. Thanks for sharing that because I know that they have to field all the calls when things aren't going the way that we want them to go. And I think it's really great for you guys to hear too that there's a lot, most of the time things are going the way we do want them to go. You just don't hear that enough so, you hear that tonight. Well if there isn't anybody else that's even thought of another issue, since you came here maybe for something else and there's anything else you'd like to get out, let us know. If not what I'd like to do is temporarily suspend our meeting tonight and we're going to come down and give everybody an opportunity to just kind of pin us in a comer and talk with us a little bit and we'll give you a little bit of feedback of what some of our ideas are and then after that we'll try to move on with our business and you can stay if you want after that or you can certainly leave if you'd like too. So do I require a motion to temporarily suspend the business? I'll ask for that anyway. Is there a motion to temporarily suspend the meeting. O'Shea moved, Atkins seconded to recess the Park and Recreation Commission meeting to hold an informal open house with the public at this point. Chairman Franks called the meeting back to order. Franks: The next item that is before us, well you know what, before we get to that. Todd, I'd just like to thank you for advertising, for letting people know that we're having our community open mic. We are kind of focused on one issue today but that's the way it goes. I'd like to consider maybe doing this more than once a year. Just during some slow times of the year, so it gets to be something that is known and gets spread around that you can come and bring up anything. Good, bad or ugly. Hopefully good. Stolar: Also if we could start a little bit earlier if we do that. Franks: On those days it might be worth our while to start earlier. Keep the rest of the agenda light. Stolar: Do we need to take action on what we heard or have an opportunity to discuss? Franks: When you're saying take action, if anything were to come up it'd have to be set as new business on a future agenda. Stolar: I'm sorry, I meant take action to discuss whether we want this on a future agenda. Not take action today. Franks: Discuss of whether any of the things that came up today we want on a future agenda? Stolar: Yes. Franks: Well let's take some time to do that. Well Glenn since you bring up the question, why don't you start with comments that you have. Stolar: Well I guess I heard three things. One prompted by our chair here. A place to play paint ball, a lit field and a dog park. And I guess the question being is have these issues come up? Obviously we're going to talk later about the capital budget which may influence a lot of this but I think from the paint ball perspective the big issue there is the ordinance, correct? Franks: Correct. Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Stolar: So the question there would be is do we view this as a recreational opportunity for which there might be an exception made if there's a designated area. Not saying we're building one. Not saying you know a lot of other things but do we feel this is a recreation need I guess is where I'm asking you guys, have you seen it anywhere else come up as a big issue? Hoffman: It's come up at other cities as a big issue. There's really no one currently that I'm aware of, and when I say no one I'm talking municipality or public entity that has taken it upon themselves to say it's an allowed activity in public space. But it's a new issue. If we go ahead and broaden that spectrum and take a look across the country we'll probably be able to start finding some municipalities or counties or agencies that have done that. It's a very popular sport. Very popular activity, but I think any time you talk extreme sports there's always that shock of well is this allowed. Where do you allow it and once you have to start putting controls on it, then how do those controls, how are they enforced and what are the activities. This little area, as nice as it is could not be opened up as a public paint ball area. There's no access to it. The neighborhood has great access but beyond that there's no public access to it. Stolar: We did talk to them because I figured this area would not be an appropriate one, but the question would be more generally like a state park, like or other municipalities and you answered it, that have areas designated for this type of activity. Hoffman: Since the article came out and the phone calls started ringing at my house that night, I' ve had some, taken every opportunity to have a conversation, make some phone calls. We had a Board meeting today of a statewide parks and recreational professionals. We brought it up as a topic and it's an issue that people are talking about, but currently there are no public. There's private, plenty of private ones across the metropolitan, or across the state and no public. Franks: Well I'm not interested in letting that stop me since we pushed the envelope with a public free skate park when it was the same kind of issue and it was just through exploring it that we really kind of I think set the trend for municipalities like our's to go do it. And look around, everybody's got one now and when we put our's in, nobody had one. So not to say that paint ball is something that would be viable, but I think it may be, were it the same type of exploration. Just open up the Fleet Farm ad any Sunday and you'll see how popular it is. They're not putting ads space in their circular for nothing. They know that that stuff is selling so. Herman Field Todd. Hoffman: Need a place for a dog park. Need a place for a paint ball park. Franks: So the question is, at some future point does the commission wish some report from staff regarding paint ball? So, and is that something that commission members are interested in? Okay. Some of the things I'd like to see then is, as Glenn mentioned, who else is doing it and if they are, what are they doing and how. Some history on the ordinance and it's inception and why. And liability issues. I don't know if the city attorney's involved in that. And just some thought about possible locations, if any, required equipment and cost. Hoffman: Okay. There's really two kinds of parks. The one you saw in the video. You could fence off anywhere and put in artificial obstacles, or a location in a wooded location. Stolar: ...where we talked about the Rollerblade rinks not being used that much. I don't know if that's a good location but those are questions of do we have the space. And I'm not trying to 10 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 suggest that we should do this. I'm just saying they came en masse and we at least owe them the diligence of exploring what options exist, if any. Hoffman: Absolutely. Very good group. They contacted, well Kent hit me up in the hardware store. When you get done buying that paint come and see me. Franks: As far as the dog park you are indicating we're going to tour a possible site sometime in the future? Hoffman: Yep. Franks: And then lights for fields always has been an issue. Hoffman: Jerry can probably talk to that. 100 yard fields, I don't know that we have one. Ruegemer: We do not have a 100 yard field at this point. What we've done for about the last 3, 4, 5 years we've played at Lake Ann Park on opposite nights of fall softball and that sort of thing. What we've done is we've put 80 yard fields on Fields 4 and 5 out there, and kind of pacified their need for a little while. They've played 3rd, 4th and 5th and 6th grade football out there. And we've done fall soccer on Field number 1. What we're trying to do is kind of utilize our fields as much as we can for different uses. And now the football association is relatively infant in it's existence. This is probably their about fourth or fifth year too. We've kind of started with them. They started with 150 kids approximately. Now they're going to be up over 500. No question football has a need. There's a lot of kids from Chanhassen playing in that league. They are getting to the point where they're kind of busting at the seams and need to have those types of opportunities. Franks: I'm just thinking that if we had a multi-use lighted field, soccer, football. You know part of my vision at Bandimere was that it be you know a great tournament location and for that really you're going to need soccer. A tournament location for that you're really going to need lights on one of those fields. Ruegemer: And that certainly could happen and we've had some issues with it being the fourth wettest year last year in hundred years or on record or whatever. We did do some damage, turf damage to our fields out there because of some football play. And certainly I've met with Clay, Dale Gregory and I met with Clay and Rob Norby with the football association and kind of went through a lot of different things. They're well aware, they want to be good stewards of the fields. That can certainly happen. We talked a lot about where location might be for a lighted field in town, and the commission certainly can direct staff on if you want to identify one of the Bandimere fields, Lake Ann as a designated football field, we can certainly do that. And that could be a dual purpose field, but you need to dedicate that, if it's going to be football in the fall, then it needs to be football in the fall. We can't probably do both. And then what needs to happen in the spring is we need to have some growing time before we schedule that field so do we keep soccer off it til June 17 June 15th? That all can certainly can happen through creative scheduling so. And I know Clay's going to put together a letter for the commission to review and identify some potential sources of income to pay for those lights. Franks: I know Glenn and I were talking about putting a cell tower up. Trading the lease space for assistance in getting the lights up. I'm sure that's been done before. Stolar: So for this one should we wait until we get the letter? 11 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Ruegemer: I would wait until you get the letter and that's coming to you soon. So football has a need. I mean soccer has a need and you can certainly double your... Franks: I mean there's nothing that's going to happen this year anyway obviously, or probably not next year either so. Ruegemer: Yeah, it's a significant investment. Franks: Alright, so we'll wait on that one. And as far as the paint ball, Todd we'll let you slip that in when you're ready and then on an agenda for a meeting where it seems to fit and we'll have the proper amount of time to deal with it. Hoffman: Should be in June. Franks: In June, oh okay. Any other comments? Questions from commissioners. Spizale: I hear a lot of people still asking about the dog walking thing. I think that is quite a popular thing to bring up. I have people asking me that all the time. I know we have a hard time finding a spot for it but boy if we could, it's something that people really want. Hoffman: We've got a potential spot. Stolar: I was just driving in Chicago and they have a little beach by Belmont Harbor for dogs. Just a beach, right on Lake Michigan by Belmont Harbor. It's been there for years. Kind of fun to see those dogs out there. Hoffman: The dogs typically are at either the Lake Susan public access or Lake Ann public access as far as water's public access. Franks: Any other comments? Questions? Again thanks Todd in your work in getting this put together. Hoffman: That went very well. Franks: Cookies were a hit. So were the 20 ouncers. All the old people went for the cans and the kids went for the 20 ouncers. Alright. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: O'Shea moved, Spizale seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated April 22, 2003 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. INITIATE REVIEW OF ACCESSIBILITY EVALUATION FOR CITY OF CHANHASSEN PARKS. Franks: We've set it up to take a look at the assisted accessibility evaluation for the city parks. This was done a long time ago Todd. Hoffman: Ten years. 12 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Franks: So our process tonight is to just kind of go over some of the high points with you and ask some questions and the plan is that this will be updated to take in the current park situation, at some point. Hoffman: Yeah, Chairman Franks. Really no need to go over it this evening. I wanted to get the document into your hands just to begin to, so you can start to take a look through it. It's complex. It's comprehensive. And then what I will do is go ahead and do a complete overview of this document for your next meeting and do some photo documentation of what has been done. What is not completed as of yet, and provide you with a complete assessment of where the city is at with accessibility. ADA was the biggest thing going for about 4or 5 years when this came out, and after that it kind of, it's one of those issues that didn't receive a whole lot of press. And then with the recent lawsuit, I believe it was in Brooklyn Park, it has some renewed press and so, again I would never guess it was '93. 10 years ago so it is time that the city go ahead and take a look at that issue. There's been some great improvements. Hard surface trail one of the biggest ones. Some other, all the accessibility portable restrooms all came out of this and people are utilizing those facilities but I can guarantee you there'll be a long ways to go once we go through this document. Franks: Could we also include with that Todd and update on the current ADA requirements. My understanding of ADA is that a lot of it is based on the case law that is being built up as you know suits are being brought and such, and I'm guessing that since 1993 there's. Hoffman: Been some changes. Franks: Been some changes. Hoffman: Sure. Franks: Great. Any other comments? Okay, we'll move on. RECREATION PROGRAMS: 2003 SUMMER ACTIVITIES. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks. Just the summer program report is more of an FYI for the commission to kind of give you an idea as to what's going to be happening for the summer. For that registrations have been coming in. Our summer brochure went out about 3 weeks ago now and numbers are a little down a little bit but hopefully they'll rebound with that so. We're doing a couple, one thing I think the commission will be interested in and we're offering for the first time, a skateboard camp. And Third Layer had called us initiating some conversation on that and I said yeah, let's go for it so we're going to do it July 14th through the 19t~, right here at the park. A week long camp. I was very apprehensive at first because I didn't know how it would, $160 price tag was the price of the camp, and we've already got our minimum already so it' s definitely a go already. Franks: And what's the take from the city? Ruegemer: 20 percent. Of all registration so for relatively little work, it could be an additional revenue source for us. They can take up to 40 kids, all age groups so it's exciting. And we're having a skateboard demonstration on Saturday. Third Layer's coming down and doing some tricks and bringing the team and stuff down so it should be fun. 13 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 O'Shea: What time? Ruegemer: 11:00. I wanted to do it earlier but they talked me into doing it later so the kids could get up out of bed. But that's kind of a synopsis of the summer. That's kind of what's going on. Corey' s doing a great job on offering different things and kind of sticking to our core programs. Atkins: Can I ask what kind of a response you got to the Peter Pan play, the Homeward Bound thing? Ruegemer: Homeward Bound has been a program that we've struggled with, to be honest with you. In getting kids signed up for. I know that Corey tries hard to get that to go. It just doesn't seem to take off, and we' ve had conversations between the two of us and what we can do to try to improve in those areas. It seems like he cancels more than it goes. Atkins: But this is something kind of new. It's really similar to the program that we're running out of the community center. Ruegemer: Yeah, so I can report back to you on that. Atkins: Okay, I'd be interested. Stolar: The Homeward Bound, is that what they ran at Bluff Creek Elementary last year? Ruegemer: Yeah, Bruce Kirkpatrick. Stolar: Yeah, my kids loved it. Franks: Alright, any questions for staff regarding summer programs? Alright, looks good. Corey's keeping busy. Ruegemer: He is. Franks: That's good. That's a good thing. Hoffman: We also have a summer intern. Ruegemer: Lisa Anderson from the U of M will be here until August and we did, I think it was Glenn, we had talked about our intern budget that got cut. She's working for a stipend every week. Hoffman: Out of a program budget. Ruegemer: Yeah. We hired one less program leader to fund the position so. $100 a week she's working for. So if there's any special projects the commission would like to direct staff on, on her behalf, if you'd like her to perform something for the betterment of the commission, please let me know. Hoffman: She'll be doing some research on swamps. 14 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Franks: Would she be interested in doing some research on bringing a midway attraction to our 4th of July festival so maybe in 2 or 3 years we' 11 be prepared and ready to go. Ruegemer: If we change our 4th of July date, I think we'll be in a lot better shape. Franks: You've got to get on the list. Ruegemer: We could certainly direct her to do that Rod. Franks: I had to put that out there. You know if we would have gotten on the list the very first time I brought this up 5 years ago we'd be, we'd only have 15 years. Ruegemer: I've been combing the state Rod looking for somebody for those dates. It's been tough. Hoffman: I found one once in Willmar but. Franks: Alright, thank you Jerry. We'll move tight onto the Lake Ann Park operations report. 2003 LAKE ANN PARK OPERATIONS REPORT. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks, rest of the commission. We did open up the concession stand last weekend. Had an awesome weekend. Close to $1,000 in sales, which has got to be top 5 all time for Memorial weekend. Typically it's cold and rainy and kind of cruddy out. I was out there again today and definitely had to re-order all the sodas and the ice cream and all the good stuff so it was a fantastic first weekend. And we'll be open weekends until June 7th when the beach opens, and then we'll be open 7 days a week, 11:00 to 6:00. Lifeguards will be on duty again 10:30 to 8:00 as you know from the contract that we reviewed. So it's going to be coming up on a good summer again. I don't know with the nice weather now, picnic phone calls have been going off the phone tinging here. It's just been crazy and so Lisa's been taking some of those phone calls and it's been nice to have her around so. Been keeping a daily log on the picnic phone calls as far as dates, so I can share that with the commission at the tail end of the summer if you'd like and kind of show you kind of the patterns of the requests of certain dates. It looks like July 26th is the big winner tight now, so that Saturday. So but I'll share that with the commission in a report later on. Franks: And I noticed your statement that you're not getting much resistance from the fee schedule. Ruegemer: That's true. None at all. Franks: Even from people who are coming back. Ruegemer: I haven't had a whole lot of the 300 plus dollar reservations with non-resident businesses, but I have done some and it's been fine. It's been, I'm an old dog doing the same thing here. It's been, I just need to make sure I look at the fees because it's always been memory, memory, but now we have the two tier system it forces me to re-evaluate here a little bit so it's been great. Franks: Great. 15 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Ruegemer: And we have had some Boy Scout groups and Cub Scout groups that want to do splat ball, or not splat ball, but paint ball at day camps in our parks and that has been, we've indicated that's not an allowed use at this time. Franks: I'm sure that the city must have some old culverts they want to get rid of, well anyway. Any questions about the Lake Ann Park operations? No? Okay, great. SELF SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: SUMMER ADULT SOFTBALL. Ruegemer: Thanks again. Going on our fourth week of softball now. We started late April and with a lot of the leagues were up a bit. Thursday night's probably our most popular league. ...the Tuesday night league again we're combining with Eden Prairie. We were flat with about 5 teams for years now, and we have 10 this year. We've had 12 in the past but it's been a great match for us to partner with a neighboring organization so other than that, everything else is going real good for softball. Franks: Good, thank you. Any questions regarding the summer adult softball league. Jerry just one. You know just thinking back on trends. Is the participation in softball, is it increasing? Is it staying about the same? Hoffman: Getting older. Franks: Are the people getting older? Ruegemer: It's definitely getting older and kind of what we've seen through the trends is that there's not a lot of younger population replacing the older generation with that. Numbers are flat or declining slightly. But hopefully it will cycle. Maybe at some point in time but it's been across the state...recreation sports commission and it's that way all over the state. Franks: All over. Robinson: I'm wondering Jerry if it has something to do with the increase in extreme sports. The younger folks are doing more of the extreme sports type of things and getting out of the traditional sports. Ruegemer: Exactly. Robinson: So I'm wondering if it will cycle or if we're going to keep seeing more extreme sports coming our way. Ruegemer: There's a lot more opportunities in other areas. Golf is one and you know a lot of people bike or jog or skate, Rollerblade and other things. ADMINISTRATIVE: 2003 PARK AND TRAIL CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM (CIP). Hoffman: Thank you Chair Franks, members of the commission. I see this as a good news, bad news report. Little heavy on the bad news, but the good news is that over the past half a dozen years or so, Fund 410 it's called, or the park dedication, park and trail dedication. It's official title is Park and Trail Acquisition and Development Fund. Fund 410. Has been called upon to 16 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 finance a variety of very nice improvements in the community parks and trails. The mason, one of the mason it was so capable of taking on those large projects has to do with the '97 referendum. That was passed. Generated millions of dollars in park improvement funds, which were then put into use and actually gave some leeway in the park dedication fund to allow it to build up. That fund was at an all time high of about a million 9 and it kept cycling in that general area for a number of years. But after the referendum improvements were complete and projects had no other funding sources financed through Fund 410, we're starting to hit the bottom of the cash reserves. The current cash balance as of last week, $767,000 in the bank. There's a correction to your packet, and that correction is on the remaining 2003 revenue forecasts, remaining revenue, park dedication, again that's an estimate, approximately $200,000. It's very volatile depending on which projects come through the door in 2003. The park dedication ordinance was just changed to state that all park dedication funds are collected of the signing of the plat. Before, previous to that it was one-third was collected at the time of the plat. Two-third was collected at the time of the building permit, so go over to the Americlnn and Houlihan's and you look immediately south, Presbyterian Homes is going to build hundreds of units there. That's like an $80,000 or $90,000 check that will come to the city in park dedication. If that happens this year, this $200,000 will be surpassed. If it doesn't happen, you'll never reach that $200,000 this year, so a single project in today's word can make the difference. Power Ridge Apartments is another one. Power Ridge Apartments just south on Powers. If they come in with their second phase this year, again big...$60,000 to $80,000. In that range. So that gives you an idea about those numbers. The grant is just to clean up billing back to the DNR for the grant money, which was dedicated to the 101 trail. Approximately $350,000 to $400,000 will be collected. There was $500,000 eligible, or available but there was not that much money expended on the project that was eligible for reimbursement from the DNR so we'll collect about $400,000 back. And then the addition is an $81,000 transfer from the library project over to the City Center Park project. So the City manager informed me after I published this memorandum, distributed it, that that additional cash transfer will be coming in. So the bottom line to that is now we're not in a negative situation estimate at the end of the year. We're in a positive $16,000 estimate position. Briefly I' 11 talk about the liabilities that we have going on in 2003. City Center Park, you've seen the activity. Contractor recently pulled off to allow NSP or Xcel to get their work done with those power issues out there. The Pulte trail, if you've driven 41, you've seen the Pulte trail going in. Those trail segments, both the Pulte and Vasserman Ridge projects were arranged with the developer as, they come in for a development contract with the City. We stated, you build the trails. The comprehensive trails. We'll pay you for that. We'll pay you for the rock, for the asphalt, and you go ahead and assume the responsibility for the cost associated with engineering, planning, overhead costs, those type of things. Previous to that, the city would say no. We want to take your money. We're going to collect your fees and then we're going to build the trails because we want to build them how we want to build them. It ended up to be not the best practice because you get into all sorts of conflicts with their contractors and your contractors and timing and who's going to do this first and who's going to do that and where is the trail going to be and oh our homeowners didn't know the trail was going to be in that location, so we changed that about a half a dozen years ago and it' s worked out very nicely for us. So both the Pulte trail and the Vasserman Ridge trail will go in and they will be billed for them. The Highway 101 north trail has about $75,000. That may go up to $100,000. It may go down to $50,000, depending on how much clean-up work is left out there in the 101 north trail. You've seen that. Stolar: Plus there are change orders that they talked about yesterday. Hoffman: Yes, yesterday. And that number is, it will either go up or down depending on how large that change order is. The Marsh Glen trail is a trail down near Mission Hills which is being 17 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 completed over the next 2 weeks. Roundhouse renovation, approved by the City Council at $25,000 level. Trash receptacles, that's a final order of a 3 year order. Skate park improvements coming in and those were on the fax machine this evening, and then the connection trails retainage, that's the retainage for seeding on Highway 101 south trails. So there you have an estimate of $1,062,000. That puts our cash down to a negative $65,000 with that additional transfer I talked about, back up to a positive $16,000. To give you some idea of what's been happening in this account over the past few years. The million 6 and then with the other items that are included in this year, we're at about $1,200,000 in expenditures or investments in this year in park dedication. Last year I believe it was right around $900,000. Year before a million 6 so those are large capital investments coming out of Fund 410. Next year it will be right around zero, or $100,000. Annual revenues are averaging 200-250, up to $400,000 in a high year, depending on how much building activity is taking place in the city. We have future obligations or future liabilities that will be placed against this fund, specifically the two trails out on Arboretum Village. The industrial park out on Highway 5 and Highway 41. There's two lots that remain there to be developed that are east of Century Boulevard. Same thing. Development Contract written. The City will pay for these trails that are on thebacks of these lots when you're ready to develop. When a building permit comes in for that lot, it trips the development contract specifying that they will build the trail and bill us for it. So those two lots are going to come in. Those trails will cost X amount of dollars. $100,000-$150,000. One good thing is that still is in a TIF district which has an excess TIF balance and we may be able to finance those through that so, depending on how that issue is determined will give you some potentially extra leeway in your budget in the future years. Stolar: We' ve gotten park dedication fees for those already then? Hoffman: Yes, park dedication fee is coming in. You've got one-third. You'll collect two-thirds when they come in. The remaining two-thirds. Stolar: Which will be less than the trail costs or? Hoffman: Oh yes. Stolar: Far less? Hoffman: Far less. On a lot like that, 2-3 acre lot, $7,000 an acre or $21,000-$30,000 for a little larger lot. $7,000 per acre, and you've already collected a third of that so it's not going to be less than that. So there's tough times ahead in capital financing for the city in the area of parks and recreation. Many projects were put on hold. Fund 410 was looked at from a variety of different, what I would call philosophies. The park commission had a philosophy that you wanted to continue on and do certain things. The City Council had limited resources to complete the Highway 101 trail. They looked to this fund. We have limited resources to finance the park in front of City Hall. This fund was looked at to finance that, and I knew we were headed in this direction. I actually thought we would be here this evening prioritizing the remaining improvements that we wanted to see happen. That's not the case. We're here simply to say that we are staffed and we will just really be taking a no spend position for at least this year and then we' 11 evaluate 2004 coming up a little later in the budget cycle. I'll answer any questions that the commission has and if I can't answer them tonight I'll bring them back to you in a future packet. Franks: I think we should take our advice of our state government and they can bond for freeways, heck we can bond for park improvements. You know I'm being a little funny but that might be the wave of the future for any kind of large capital projects that we'd be looking at so. I 18 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 know that that's not questions we've really had to face as a commission about the in's and out's of bonding so when we have our discussion, that might be something that would be helpful for all of us is a little mini education on how the city goes about bonding for projects. Stolar: Plus maybe some...see what other park districts have done. What have been recent bond funds approved for cities like Chan that have gotten older and losing some of the development park dedication. Franks: And as we'll also have to consider at what point will we want to push for another referendum. Park referendum. Hoffman: Well that's what we're talking about is park referendum bonding. We were at a similar position financially speaking back in 1994-95. The commission sitting where you're at this evening were saying you know what, man we're growing. We've got all these people coming in. The park dedication fund is not keeping up with what we want to accomplish. How are we going to make this happen? There are people that come in and stand at that podium and say we'd like this facility. We'd like that facility, and after about a year and a half, 18 months of that they just threw up their hands and they said, we can't do it. We have to have a referendum and they made a recommendation to City Council and at that time the City Council agreed. Franks: Okay. Thanks for putting this together Todd. Stolar: Any questions? Franks: Sure. Stolar: You gave us a sheet back in September, and I'm trying to reconcile some things. This $500,000 additional expenditure for the City Center Park from the September memo. Hoffman: Okay. September memo of last year? Stolar: Yeah. Hoffman: Last year I was, it was my hope and at least I had the, at that time the backing of the city manager that we would only use $200,000 out of park dedication for this project. No other available resources or financing source came to the forefront and so the entire amount was taken out of Fund 410. Stolar: It has been or has been passed by the City Council to do it? Hoffman: Approved by the City Council. The contract has been let. The funding source has been identified, and so now it's on paper that those dollars will come out of Fund 410. Stolar: I'm sorry, the contract has been signed for that amount? Hoffman: The contract has been signed for 657 and change and then we have costs for the architect and other costs in there so the number, the budget number is $700,000 that has been designated. Stolar: Because I'm not against our recommending to City Council that they review that plan and reduce the expenditure. 19 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Hoffman: At this time, I mean we can't, it's been let. Contract's been let. Stolar: Unless you get change orders. Hoffman: Yeah we can do deducts, which we typically they get back 70 to 80 cents on the dollar for it so. Stolar: Has the City Council seen this? Hoffman: The City Council receives this in their packet. I also emailed it directly to their desktop letting them know the importance of the document and that it is in their packet but I wanted to make sure that they saw it. I know there was some comments from council members to the city manager specifically revolving around the fact that they did not want to see a deficit budget and so that's where the additional $81,000 was brought to my attention. That that transfer will be coming to the library project into Fund 410 so. Franks: From library referendum dollars or from the general fund expenditures? Hoffman: Library referendum dollars which were designated for landscaping for the library, which were deducted from the library project and picked up by the City Center Park project for coordination reasons. Instead of having two contractors out there, one doing a very small landscaping project on the library, we just crossed it over and did it as one project. Stolar: The other question I have is, where did the one million dollars last year go? What were the maj or things, because I see some of them still here. Hoffman: Highway 101. Stolar: Was how much of that? About 700. Hoffman: Something like that, yeah. I can actually run upstairs and grab those. Between that and the 101 south project, those were the, that's where the cash went. Stolar: Both projects because you have the 101 north here at 500, the south would have probably been another couple hundred. Hoffman: Yeah it was 250-270. Both with 101 south and the connection projects of Bluff Creek. Stolar: Is it, I mean and I can give you those, there's a sheet that we had at Eden Prairie that basically just went through each year. It was your balance. Here's what we took in. Here's what we, could we have one of these for like since 2000 so for the years you mentioned. Hoffman: Sure. You bet. Stolar: Then we could just keep this on an ongoing basis because it would show, I would ideally start with the referendum. Show what we got for that money because that would be helpful if we ever choose to do another one, to show this is what we got for it. A lot of things out there. We'd just like to project that type of return to the citizens. 20 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Hoffman: Prior to the referendum a couple hundred thousand came in and a couple hundred thousand went out every year. That's just basically how it operated. And we'll maybe be back to that for a while until that funding can be... Stolar: I still would like to know what the 700,000 might be savable reasonably savable if any. Because there was, I saw the architecture drawings, what they were doing. It's going to be very nice. When you have a zero budget you can't afford very nice. You can afford nice. Hoffman: That discussion did play out. The original project was a million 1, million 2 and. Stolar: Yeah, I saw some of the reduction. Hoffman: Then there was the $300,000 project is for bare to nothing and so I think it was seen by the commission and the council and the Planning Commission that this was middle of the road. Franks: And the library board. Stolar: Okay, thank you. Franks: Glenn, I hear what you're saying about kind of the philosophy behind the 410 and making our statement. In some sense I think we were pretty clear beforehand about being, what our philosophy was about how those dollars should be spent and for what types of projects and the City Council has decided with that information to go forward and take the information that they have. Stolar: The former City Council correct. Some overlay but not, some new ones too. Franks: Correct. Correct, yeah. The former City Council that set the budget for this year. And in our joint meeting we again talked about that type of philosophy so I'm really hoping that at least for the future that message is going to be clear. Without necessarily coming across as being antagonistic so. But we are going to have to keep the message coming I think so it doesn't get lost. Hoffman: The important message to continue is that maintenance versus new capital. Right now there's really no big debate. Franks: Well in some sense I'm glad that it's being spent down to nothing because it forces people to start making the choices that we've been saying need to have been made long ago, and when there's resources available you know why make them. But we're at the point now where a plan is going to have to be developed for maintenance and replacement. Hoffman: Ten wood playgrounds. We had 5 of them in this year's CIP. We almost bulldozed those playgrounds in January. We made the call we'd better wait and see how this entire budget plays out. The $500,000 for the library and so we held off and we would have had 5 parks with no playgrounds. Franks: But in some sense you know those wood playgrounds, they've got to go. And it may be this is the point where we say look you know, we have to take them down. Hoffman: Read this month's magazines. That's it. 21 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Franks: And when people start seeing that they have no playground and they begin to understand why they don't have a replacement, then we can start working to figure out these things are going to happen in a realistic way. Hoffman: Probably a work session item for the commission here this summer. We'll take a good park tour which really sets you up for a capital discussion, and then come back and have a brainstorming session. Franks: Any other comments or questions regarding this issue? Susan you're getting an education here. Robinson: It's very wonderful. 4T}I OF JULY TRADE FAIR. Ruegemer: The trade fair is currently now called the Business Expo with that. Hoffman: We're just checking to see if you want a booth. Franks: Yes we do. Hoffman: Okay. Alright, and then I'll work with the commission, well we'd better get something planned so do you want to talk about it tonight? What we would like to have as far as displays. Franks: We want these nice maps available. Do we have extras? Hoffman: Absolutely. Franks: Okay. And those little coloring kits, if you've got those laying around. Or if there's any money left in the budget, but something child oriented to hand out as opposed to a button or something, would be really nice. Atkins: The chip clips were pretty popular. Franks: The chip clips were popular actually. O'Shea: Good point. Franks: You know I think that almost works better than trying to do any of the contests that we' ve done. And I would like to try the suggestion box thing again. Stolar: Thought that was good. O'Shea: That's because you got a couple compliments in there. That's why you liked it. Franks: People love me. Is there anything else that you'd like to see at the booth? Atkins: Is there any kind of mini survey we could do? Like what do you think about a dog park? Yes? No? Silly? 22 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 O'Shea: I know the rec/aquatic center had fallen out of talking about it. Something like that to get the interest back. Or knowing I should say. Atkins: School issue too, I mean just to make people aware it might be coming up. Hoffman: We could do a top ten list. Here are items. What are you top ten? Franks: You know let's do that. Just rank them. If we have like the ten and people could just rank them and turn it in. Stolar: If we end up where we have more than ten, maybe just ask them to mark their top seven or...paint ball. Atkins: Gmat feedback. Franks: And tallying those up sounds like a good intern project. Stolar: How many weeks do we have this intern? Ruegemer: 15 more. Hoffman: Okay, thanks. 4TM OF JULY PARADE. Ruegemer: The parade, did everybody get a copy of that in their packet? Application form. If there's anybody that'd like to participate in the parade, either being in a float or a car or whatever, the deadline on the application that is all included with that is June 13th. For the parade application deadlines so the parade's going to be the same route again this year. 2:30 start. Start from the Chapel Hill area and work it's way back down through town up to Santa Vera, back over. O'Shea: Is there an application for the booth at the Business Expo too? Hoffman: We can take care of that. Franks: I just have a comment about the parade, just from my experience last year. You know there was the theme last year, and I'm just wondering if the political participants would have some small requirement to embrace the theme in some fashion up to them. Hoffman: Let's bring it up to the parade committee. Franks: I mean it's just like a thought because it, you know I don't know. It just was my thought sitting there watching the parade and kind of hearing the people around me and paying attention. Hoffman: Well it is a political parade. Franks: Yeah, and that's okay. But I think that should be part of it. But to have the participants in some way, whether it's in their decorations or it's in what they're handing out, or their stickers or whatever, that some way more embrace the theme of the parade for that particular year. 23 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Hoffman: I don't know that that's been talked about. Probably a good discussion topic. O'Shea: I think one of the criteria that the judges uses how well the entry represents the them. That year's theme. Franks: Right, and I'm just thinking for like the political participants, where the ones that just didn't seem to be embracing the theme. Of course they have an agenda which is f'me, but you know they can maybe find some way to embrace the theme. Hoffman: Anything else with the parade? O'Shea: I've got a question. I know Boy Scouts are out selling, has the city ever tried to sell things around the route? You know pops and, as a fund, I mean a revenue source. Ruegemer: We have and the parade committee's kind of taken the stance that they want to kind of keep it more to the younger service organizations. Like the Girl Scouts, the Boy Scouts, more so than opening it up to the Rotary and the Lions to do that sort of thing. That's the stance that they've taken. O'Shea: Okay, because I know last year I know it was so weather dependent, but last year a ton of pop and water's could have been sold. There weren't enough crews along the, you know people, it's a great money generator for either the city or a group. Okay, so you don't want the city to look at a revenue producing. Ruegemer: The parade committee makes those policies and decisions. Hoffman: Just so everyone's aware, the parade committee is separate from the city. They're not associated with the city except that they are a committee that does an event at the 4th of July for the benefit of the city. And so they're political decisions, their agenda decisions are decided by their committee and we participate obviously in planning and scheduling of those events but. Franks: Is the city contributing financially to the parade? Ruegemer: We will if there are shortfalls. They're in charge of doing their own fund raising for the parade. Hoffman: To date we haven't... And then there is a second event after the parade this year when the, what are they calling it officially? The band jam or putting on a concert. It's going to be back under the tent so the tent is here on the 4th so the Rotary will continue to sell their refreshments and the bands will play on and so people who want to leave the parade and come up to another event can come right back up to the big top... Spizale: Good idea. Hoffman: And that's Joe Scott, a citizen who's gearing that effort on behalf of the community. Ruegemer: It's a fundraiser for the good shelf?. Robinson: He's my neighbor. He does local things too right in our neighborhood. We hear him. He gets everything approved through the city through but we do hear him. 24 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Hoffman: And the one thing we forgot to mention is remember during the Business Expo we'll need volunteers from the commission to man that booth. Franks: Oh absolutely. Stolar: Can you send us an e-mail with the times? Hoffman: You bet. Franks: And how about the prize... Ruegemer: ...would you like some artistic involvement with that? Franks: I have no artistic ability at all whatsoever so you would not want my involvement. Just curious. Thank you Jerry. RECOGNITION FOR BOKOO BIKES FOR TRAIL MAP PARTNERSHIP. Franks: Thanks Todd for giving us that letter. Hoffman: You're welcome. I'll let the memo speak for itself. It's a $5,000 contribution to produce, or help produce this map. At Monday, June 9t~ Bokoo Bikes and their representatives will be presented with this plaque. This framed edition of the map as the Bokoo Bikes...and the map has been very well received. We hope, we believe that they're getting the value out of the product and they're sold...sponsor of the map. It was their idea. They contacted us.. Initially we started out at about a 50/50. It was their artistic folks, their consultant that we worked with at the time. Got a great bargain and a good product too. O'Shea: When did you say you're recognizing that? When are they getting that? Hoffman: City Council meeting June 9t~. Right here in front of the City Council. Mayor Furlong will present to Bokoo Bikes, their representative. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. Stolar: Just a quick update on the City Council meeting. Two relevant points. One was, they did, there was on the consent agenda the future change orders for the additional work on Highway 101 north trail. Some of it, and it was pulled by Councilperson Lundquist to discuss separately because his concern was if it's repair for work done poorly, we shouldn't be paying for it. And he, I don't know, I think her name was Teresa. Hoffman: Teresa Burgess, City Engineer. Stolar: The City Engineer is going to work with them. They're going to review each change order and say whether it's something that they should pay for, or if it is a true change order that we need to pay for. And then any changes will come out of the 410 fund, so it would come out of park dedication fees. But it was good that he brought it up to make sure that we aren't being charged for things that they had to correct. The only other thing, which I'll just provide my two points that I wanted to talk about. When John Wolff made his presentation he did, and also 25 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Lieutenant Widmer because of the new conceal and carry law, they just brought up that for the sheriff' s office obviously it's going to be a bit of work, and then on the fire chief, he mentioned that his policy will be that people, the volunteer fke department people will not carry and questions were brought up are other fire departments doing that? What are they doing and it varied. But my question is, is this something that we should start thinking about looking into to see if there's going to be a need for any policies with regard to the Rec Center or fields or things like that. We just did the tobacco policy. So I'm just wondering, has that come up at the State level yet? And maybe I will defer, given the late hour for a future meeting but if we can at some point bring that up. What park districts are thinking about. Hoffman: There's a lot of discussion. Just about any event that you go to in the past few days and we'll see where it kind of falls out. City Hall will have a policy. Employees will have policy. As an employee of the City of Chanhassen, you will not be able to carry a weapon on duty during your employment. But municipal buildings are not exempt. You can carry it right into this building so. Stolar: And I think the other question would be, since there are many other states that already have these laws in effect, not to overload your intern but it's another question. What are park districts doing in those states? Since that would be precedent that would be out there. Hoffman: You bet. Franks: Well you jumped the gun. I was going to pick this up in the administrative packet reading some of the tobacco articles and such but thought too is, what is the policy at, on city owned recreation property while there's city sponsored programming occurring. I mean is that something that we need to take a look at. Having some type of a policy during soccer games and parents packing some heat so. I mean I don't know. I have no idea. Hoffman: It's something that again everybody's talking about. Let's see where it shakes out and see what the changes are down at the legislature with the law. Stolar: Because right now if we did anything we'd have to tell each individual. I think there's all sorts of, but I mean I think it' s worth, before too long to actually have just that informational item for us to kind of say here's what other park districts have done. Here's what the city has done. So we understand what already is occurring. Hoffman: There's a variety of fronts to this. There's obviously a very emotional and very hyped up front, and then there's also a group who say this law really doesn't change much. If an individual wanted to carry a gun anywhere before yesterday or today, is going to carry a gun wherever they want to if they want to do that. So the law changes the environment but doesn't change the likelihood that something bad will happen. Stolar: And really the law changed, if I understand correctly, just the process to get permits. Permits have already been allowed out there, but it also did change some of the processes for excluding and that's what they' re really debating potentially. Hoffman: Yep. Franks: Great. Any other commission member presentations? 26 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Atkins: I just have a little item that you guys might think is interesting. I attended a Planning Commission meeting regarding the rezoning of the St. Hubert's cemetery property directly across from my house. Did they approve that? Stolar: Yes, I'm sorry. Atkins: And St. Hubert's is going to put in a park there. It will be years before the cemetery extends all the way down to 101. They're planning walking paths, a fountain, gardens. It will be just. Stolar: They're going to extend the sidewalk all the way down. They're going to put in a street light. Street lighting to, and there was discussion also about the old church. About the re, starting the discussions about maybe having it go back to St. Hubert's and so they agreed. They said that they would be willing to talk with Todd about it. Todd Gerhardt about it. Hoffman: It's owned by the city now. Stolar: Because I think the Councilperson Peterson said, I'm not sure the city should be in the business of running a church or owning a church. Hoffman: There's also on the plan a future overpass by others. By others which goes over the railroad tracks. So the pedestrian bridge drops right down on the south side of the tracks. It's going to be this skinny little trail system in public corridor on the north side, and so there's always been this conversation should we build an overpass so people can get from downtown in a more convenient route, up and down the pedestrian overpass. Franks: Thank you. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Franks: Any comments regarding the administrative packet? Thanks for including the memo from Lori regarding the pond reconstruction. Hoffman: You're welcome. One update on the tobacco issue. Council, Jerry attended a work session last night with the City Council. Council took up this issue and acted to take no action on a tobacco use policy for the city of Chanhassen. One area that I still have concerns about is the skate park, so if the commission would like to talk about that in the future. I approach kids there all the time. I do not have the ability to tell them not to smoke a cigarette if they're, what's the legal age, 197 18 for cigarettes. 18 years old at the skate park. I think that's an environment where modeling good life style choices should be, but then again I think the council may have a position on it. They're doing it at the beaches, so 19, 18 year olds can smoke at the beach and little kids can watch that, why can't little kids watch people smoke when they're at the skate park. Franks: But it was not a recommendation not to allow right on the beach was it? Hoffman: Yes. Ruegemer: Aquatic areas. Hoffman: Aquatic areas, beaches, skate park. 27 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Franks: And inside the play structures? Ruegemer: Playgrounds. Franks: So they settled for the four places we recommended that tobacco use not be allowed. Hoffman: Correct. Franks: And on that recommendation they decided to take no action. Hoffman: Correct. Stolar: Did they give a reason why? Hoffman: No reason why. They gave, they talked about specific philosophies I think of each city council member and I believe there was no consensus that they should take any action. Things like. Ruegemer: I think they really felt that it wasn't their place to dictate, for us to decide whether they smoke or not. They're taxpayers. If they want to smoke during, on the bleachers during a ball game, that's their prerogative. It's not for us to preach. Franks: Did they send it back down for any further clarification from the park commission? Hoffman: No. That's why I'm asking if you still believe strongly in any one of those areas, skate park, beaches, that you may want to modify your recommendation and re-present that to the City Council. Stolar: But how would we modify? What specific thing? See that look confused, because I would have been happy to show up at a discussion with them to answer questions. Are we going to the more frequent meetings with them? Working sessions with them or that hasn't been decided. Hoffman: The next joint meeting has not been determined. They have one with the Planning Commission coming up in June, but they have not set the calendar for your next joint meeting. To change you motion would simply mean okay so now, if you believe the skate park's an area that they shouldn't be smoking then talk about that one specifically. Or beaches. Or other areas that you feel very strongly there should not be smoking or tobacco use allowed. The skate park's directly adjacent to a school. The school property is tobacco free. The rec center is tobacco free, and so if you're on any property at the rec center, you can't smoke whether you wanted to or not. In the bleachers or somewhere else so the fact that we have a joint powers agreement with the school district who does have a policy against tobacco use, mandates that we have no tobacco use at that location. But any city owned property, the City Council at least last night did not act on restricting tobacco use at any of those locations. Robinson: So do we need to make a motion to put that on a future agenda to discuss that or can we just ask you to put that on? Hoffman: You could just ask or make a motion. You'd need a consensus among the commissioners. 28 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Robinson: That's what I'm wondering. Franks: Well, my first thought is that this strikes as micro management of the City Council on park and recreation issues. And you know this was an issue that we debated significantly. Secured input and developed what I believe to be a very reasonable recommendation, really looking out for the welfare and safety of not only the taxpayers but their children as well. And for no action to be taken without any further direction or questions being directed to park commission is. Hoffman: It took what, 3 or 4 months to get it on the agenda. Franks: Yeah. So I would certainly be in favor of this issue coming up again on a future agenda. Hoffman: Is there a consensus among the commission? Robinson: I would agree. Atkins: I agree. Spizale: I agree. Franks: We'll note then that it's unanimous by all commissioners that this be, that the tobacco use issue be again placed on our agenda at some future time for consideration and potentially further recommendation directed to the City Council regarding this issue. Robinson: I just wanted to ask a question Chairman Franks about, I did read the minutes from that, I think it was the November meeting and read through that whole discussion because that's something that interested me personally and wanted to find out what happened, but were there people from the city that came and voiced their opinion on this by anything, or was it just something that commission looked at? Franks: Well not that day there wasn't anybody in the audience, but I know you received the staff, staff had been receiving inquiries into the office and there's a trend certainly at the administrative packet that kind of outlines the trend, but that had been occurring for some time that other municipalities and recreation districts had been looking at this issue and creating policies and such and so we believed it was really time for us to consider it as well. Robinson: Right, and I'm wondering if the City Council's thinking it's, it can't be enforced because there's not city people there all the time. That's always an issue but reading in the packet, yeah it's not always enforced. If somebody goes there, they can enforce it, but just seeing the signage put there deters people from it and you know, there's anyway I won't get into it. You went through it all but. Hoffman: That was one of the big topics last night is that it's not enforceable. Robinson: Well it's not but. Franks: Well we have our dog ordinance that's obviously not enforceable either, but we have that ordinance as well so I mean it' s. 29 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Stolar.' Well in our discussion we admitted that, right? We said what we said, I agree with Susan that the signage at least gives people a chance to notice it and maybe some people will say okay, I' 11 go walk somewhere else then. I'm not going to do it here. Robinson: Well I guess my point is too is that there's a lot of smokers that don't agree with smoking around children and I'm wondering if we can, I don't know, have an open microphone for that issue at some point. I don't know if that's what you do for a particular issue or if somehow we can get some residents to come. Maybe the City Council needs to see that it's not just the commission that's looking seriously at this but other people in the city also see it as something that's important. Franks: If it's on the agenda people are certainly invited to offer public comment so. Stolar: Put it on our survey at the booth. Robinson: I was just thinking that. Franks: Add it in. Stolar: You've got to word it appropriately though. But that's a possibility. Maybe we are out of touch. If we are, then we'll know. I mean it's not scientific but it's, we're gauging. Robinson: No, but it gives you an idea. Hoffman: We received a letter a couple weeks ago. A gentleman didn't appreciate standing on the side lines at soccer games when smoking was going on so he pulled his child out of the program. Robinson: Well there's plenty of research out there that states second hand smoke even outside is very injurious to people, so the research is there. Hoffman: Anything else in the Admin packet? Geese? Mosquitoes? Stolar: Why can't the mosquitoes go after the geese? Franks: Will we be spraying? Hoffman: We will. We won't. Franks: No, but I mean they will be spraying in Chanhassen this summer. Hoffman: They're allowed to. Whether they will or won't is up to them. Franks: Okay. They've already started dropping their granular stuff so we've seen it now already, but I'm still concerned about the lack of publication of the times when that is occurring. That has bothered me for years. I don't know if there's any way to communicate that to them that we would really I think appreciate some notification it will be occurring this week or we plan on doing our granular drop. Hoffman: And when you say communication, do you mean on the news media or at your doorstep? 30 Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003 Franks: You know news media would be fine. The Villager or something. Just some attempt to be made. Hoffman: I'll drop them an e-mail. That organization I think for a long time enjoyed a big honeymoon where they weren't, they didn't have to answer to a lot of people. Now there's some public scrutiny but still the mechanics of having that large of an organization contact people in neighborhoods across the 7 county metropolitan area, is just, I don't know how. Franks: No, even if it was something just in the paper that this week or in such a week we plan on doing our. Hoffman: We' 11 see what they say. I know they try to stimulate a lot of media coverage of their programs and they're fairly successful for an organization of their size. You see them on the news channels all the time. Franks: Sure. And I want them to do it. Yeah, go ahead. Hoffman: Last item of discussion, the school issue. We've had a meeting with the district. The staff has stated that we are in support of a school, either a high school or a middle school being constructed in this community. We've identified locations south of Lyman Boulevard in that 2005 MUSA area. District 112 will likely have a referendum this fall. There will be likely a question on there that says shall the district sell bonds to purchase school for, land for furore schools. How they identify those sites is up to the district. They probably will not be identified on the actual ballot but it will be identified through publicity and other types of promotion and information. Information, not promotion, for the referendum. The City Council will likely send out a letter of intent to the school board stating, in the administration, stating that this is what we would like to see happen. This is what we are willing to commit to such a process. Just so you're aware of that. If that's an area that interests you as, either personally or as a commission, you want to keep on top of that because that referendum's going to happen this fall. The district will most likely decide that, or they have to decide that language right around the first of July. For that question. Franks: Middle school with a pool. Hoffman: Oh sure. We talked about a pool. We talked about a theater. We talked about outdoor sporting venue. We talked about bubbles so, we talked about a lot of nice facilities that could occur at such a location. The current philosophy is that 80 acres be purchased by the school board. 40 acres of that will be paid for by the city through park dedication dollars over a period of time. So you would, as the development comes in through an agreement with the school district. You would pay back those dollars for the 40 acres of the city owned property with park dedication generated in that park service area. Franks: It's a deal. Any other questions or comments regarding the administrative packet? Seeing none then I'll entertain a motion to adjourn. Robinson moved, O'Shea seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 31