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CC Staff Report 1-12-09 CITY OF CHANHASSEN 7700 Market Boulevard PO Box 147 Chanhassen, MN 55317 Administration Phone: 952,227,1100 Fax: 952,227,1110 Building Inspections Phone: 952,227,1180 Fax: 952,227.1190 Engineering Phone: 952,227,1160 Fax: 952,227.1170 Finance Phone: 952,227,1140 Fax: 952,227.1110 Park & Recreation Phone: 952,227,1120 Fax: 952,227,1110 Recreation Center 2310 Coulter Boulevard Phone: 952,227,1400 Fax: 952,227,1404 Planning & Natural Resources Phone: 952,227,1130 Fax: 952,227,1110 Public Works 1591 Park Road Phone: 952,227,1300 Fax: 952,227,1310 Senior Center Phone: 952,227,1125 Fax: 952,227,1110 Web Site lffflW,ci, chanhassen, mn ,us 3 MEMORANDUM TO: Todd Gerhardt, City Manager FROM: Sharmeen AI-Jaff, Senior Planner DATE: ,~ January 12,2009 SUBJ: Request for Minor PUD Amendment to allow a Drive-thru Window and Site Plan Amendment to add a Drive-thru Window Planning Case 08-22 Staff recommends the City Council adopt the following motions: PROPOSED MOTIONS "The Chanhassen City Council approves the Planned Unit Development Amendment Design Standards for Arboretum Village to allow a drive-thru on Lot 2, Block 1, Arboretum Shopping Center, with standards shown on page 10 of the staff report dated January 12,2009." And, "The City Council approves the Site Plan Amendment for Arboretum Shopping Center (Site Plan 03-06), Planning Case #08-22, to allow a drive-thru window and redesign parking layout and site circulation subject to conditions 1 - 4 shown on page 11 of the staff report dated January 12, 2009 and adoption of the attached Findings of Fact Action." City Council approval requires a simple majority vote of City Council. CITY COUNCIL SUMMARY On November 10, 2008, the City Council reviewed and tabled action on this application. The applicant was directed to work with staff to achieve a solution that staff can support. The applicant revised the plans accordingly. ATTACHMENTS 1. Findings of Fact and Action. 2. Staff Report Dated January 12,2009. 3. City Council minutes dated November 10, 2008. g:\plan\2008 planning cases\08-22 arboretum shopping center minor pud amendment for drive-thru\executive summary revised. doc Chanhassen is a Community for Life. Providing for Today and Planning for Tomorrow CITY OF CHANHASSEN CARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIES, MINNESOTA FINDINGS OF FACT AND ACTION INRE: Application of Mark Leutem, KLMS Group, LLC for the following: Request for Minor PUD Amendment to allow a drive-thru window; a site plan amendment to add a drive-thru window; and a variance to the required number of parking spaces on property zoned Planned Unit Development. On October 21,2008, the Chanhassen Planning Commission met at its regularly scheduled meeting to consider the application of Mark Leutem, KLMS Group, LLC for a Planned Unit Development Amendment, Site Plan Amendment, and Variance. The Planning Commission conducted a public hearing on the proposed application preceded by published and mailed notice. The Planning Commission heard testimony from all interested persons wishing to speak. The Planning Commission recommended denial of the request. The City Council reviewed the item at the November 10, 2008 meeting and tabled action on the request. The City Council reviewed the item again at the January 12, 2009 meeting and now makes the following: FINDINGS OF FACT 1. The property is currently zoned Planned Unit Development District. 2. The property is guided by the Land Use Plan for Commercial. 3. The legal description ofthe property is: Lot 2, Block 1, Arboretum Shopping Center. 4. In evaluating a site plan and building plan, the city shall consider the development's compliance with the following: a. Consistency with the elements and objectives of the city's development guides, including the comprehensive plan, official road mapping, and other plans that may be adopted. b. Consistency with this division. c. Preservation of the site in its natural state to the extent practicable by minimizing tree and soil removal and designing grade changes to be in keeping with the general appearance of the neighboring developed or developing areas. d. Creation of a harmonious relationship of building and open space with natural site features and with existing and future buildings having a visual relationship to the development. 1 e. Creation of functional and harmonious design for structures and site features, with special attention to the following: 1) An internal sense of order for the buildings and use on the site and provision of a desirable environment for occupants, visitors and general community. 2) The amount and location of open space and landscaping. 3) Materials, textures, colors and details of construction as an expression of the design concept and the compatibility ofthe same with adjacent and neighboring structures and uses. 4) Vehicular and pedestrian circulation, including walkways, interior drives and parking in terms oflocation and number of access points to the public streets, width of interior drives and access points, general interior circulation, separation of pedestrian and vehicular traffic and arrangement and amount of parking. f. Protection of adjacent and neighboring properties through reasonable provision for surface water drainage, sound and sight buffers, preservation of views, light and air and those aspects of design not adequately covered by other regulations which may have substantial effects on neighboring land uses. 5. Planned Unit Development Amendment The proposed amendment to the PUD is consistent with the guidelines outlined within the comprehensive plan. 6. The planning report #08-22, dated January 12, 2009, prepared by Sharmeen AI-Jaff, et aI, is incorporated herein. ACTION The City Council approves the Site Plan Amendment and Planned Unit Development Amendment 2008-22. ADOPTED by the Chanhassen City Council this 12th day of January, 2009. CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL BY: Its Mayor g:\plan\2008 planning cases\08-22 aIboretum shopping center minor pud amendment for drive-thru\findings of fact revised. doc 2 PC DATE: October 21,2008 CITY OF CHANHASSEN CC DATE: November 10,2008 January 12, 2009 REVIEW DEADLINE: January 17,2009 CASE #: 08-22 BY: Al-laff PROPOSED MOTION: "The City Council approves the Planned Unit Development amendment for Arboretum Village (PUD 99-02), Planning Case #08-22, amending the design standards Section b. Permitted Uses, to allow a drive-thru on Lot 2, Block 1, Arboretum Shopping Center, with standards as shown on pages 9 and 10; and approves an amendment to the Arboretum Shopping Center Site Plan Permit 03-06 subject to conditions 1 through 3 on page 10." PROPOSAL: Request for Minor PUD Amendment to allow a drive-thru window and a site plan amendment to add a drive-thru window. LOCATION: 7755 Century Boulevard Lot 2, Block 1, Arboretum Shopping Center APPLICANT: Mark Leutem KLMS Group, LLC 7755 Century Boulevard Chanhassen, MN 55317 763-234-8128 markleutem@hotmail.com PRESENT ZONING: Planned Unit Development, PUD 2020 LAND USE .PLAN: Commercial ACREAGE: 1.58 DENSITY: N/A LEVEL OF CITY DISCRETION IN DECISION MAKING: The City's discretion in approving or denying a site plan is limited to whether or not the proposed project complies with Zoning Ordinance requirements. If it meets these standards, the City must then approve the site plan. This is a quasi-judicial decision. The City has a relatively high level of discretion in approving rezonings, PUDs, and amendments to PUDs because the City is acting in its legislative or policy making capacity. A rezoning or PUD, and amendment thereto, must be consistent with the City's Comprehensive Plan. Due to all the changes that have taken place since the City Council last reviewed this item, the staff report has been rewritten in its entirety. Arboretum Shopping Center Planning Case 08-22 January 12,2009 Page 2 of 11 PROPOSAL/SUMMARY The applicant is requesting a Planned Unit Development amendment to allow a drive-thru in the Arboretum Shopping Center development and a site plan amendment to add a drive-thru window. The site is located at the northeast intersection of Highway 5 and Century Boulevard and is zoned Planned Unit Development. It is intended to provide neighborhood commercial uses for the adjacent residential properties to the north and east, as well as retail services to motorists on Highway 5. The site contains a building with an area of 5,506 square feet. A convenience store occupies 3,986 square feet. The proposed Milio's restaurant will occupy the remaining 1,520 square feet. The entrance to the convenience store is located along the northeast comer of the building while the entrance to the restaurant is located along the west side of the building. Staff is recommending the entrance to the restaurant be relocated to the north. ., .~.. 1;1' Arboretum Shopping Center Planning Case 08-22 January 12, 2009 Page 3 of 11 On October 21, 2008, the Planning Commission held a public hearing to review the proposed development. The Planning Commission voted 4 to 1 to deny the request. The reason for the denial included the following: ;\~ A1 ~ > COM N rm.._...... 0IDu,.1lIlT.....~ /-.......",.-, D ~I V ~~~__________~_____ -k W -.J o. .0 . o. .0 I I I I I CAA WASH I J,oeo st; lXJS ~lN:; tJi.1t.DM; I ~S-F. o. '0 i----~ ;-~~. .. ~- I l._u. O. .0 t I ---- I r-, I I I I t- :J o lD >- Q:: :J ......"." l~-loNI ............... t- Z W U 1 . HIGHWAY N 0 5 (Applicant's original layout) . The layout proposed by the applicant will block people in on both sides of the stacking lane. Also, if these parking spaces were empty, stacked cars would block those spaces and prevent people from parking in them. . The applicant requested that the drive aisle leading to the drive-thru window be counted as three parking spaces. The Planning Commission disagreed with the applicant since a car cannot park in the drive-thru lane. . Pedestrians must cut through the drive-thru lane. . There are 50 Milio's stores in the nation. Only 12 of the 50 have drive-thru windows. The stores are still in business. Other sandwich shops in the area (Subway and Jimmy Johns) do Arboretum Shopping Center Planning Case 08-22 January 12, 2009 Page 4 of 11 not have a drive-thru and they are still in business. . The layout that the city staff recommended does not fit the applicant's budget. . The concern in 2003 was setting precedence. This concern has not changed. . One-way traffic exiting through the gas station during rush hour when Nick and Willy's and Jimmy John's are busy as well may complicate traffic flow. On November 10, 2008, the City Council reviewed and tabled action on this application. The applicant was directed to work with staff to achieve a solution that staff can support. The applicant revised the plans accordingly. ANALYSIS The request consists of two components: 1. PUD amendment to allow a drive-thru. 2. Site Plan amendment to allow a drive-thru window and drive and replace parking. PUD AMENDMENT The current language in the PUD ordinance states: PERMITTED USES The permitted uses within the neighborhood commercial zone should be limited to appropriate commercial and service uses consistent with the neighborhood. The uses shall be limited to those as defined herein. If there is a question as to whether or not a use meets the definition, the Planning Director shall make that interpretation. The type of uses to be provided on this outlot shall be low intensity neighborhood-oriented retail and service establishments to meet daily needs of residents. Such uses may include small to medium-sized restaurants (no drive-thru windows), office, day care, neighborhood scale commercial, convenience store, churches, or other similar type and scale uses as described in the Comprehensive Plan. No single use shall exceed 5,000 square feet. The applicant is proposing a drive-thru window for a sandwich shop (Milio's). The window is proposed to face Highway 5. Staffhad lengthy discussions with the applicant regarding the drive-thru window and explained that in order to support it, it should meet design standards. The request appeared before the city council on November 10, 2008. The City Council supported the concept and directed the applicant to submit a plan that city staff can support. Staffhas always maintained a neutral stand on a drive-thru in this specific location. The site is fairly removed from any immediate residential neighborhoods. However, staff believes that it Arboretum Shopping Center Planning Case 08-22 January 12, 2009 Page 5 of 11 should be designed in a fashion that does not negatively impact traffic circulation and operation within the development. Therefore, staff recommends all drive-thrus be limited to Lot 2, Block 1, Arboretum Shopping Center, and meet the following standards: Drive-thru facilities for any use shall comply with the following standards: (a) They shall not be located adjacent to any residential lot lines. (b) They shall be provided with a suitable visual screen from adjacent properties. (c) Stacking shall be provided within applicable parking lot setbacks. (d) Stacking shall meet the following standards: (1) Fast Food Restaurant: six cars per aisle. (2) Banks: three cars per aisle. (3) Pharmacy: two cars per aisle. (4) All other uses: two cars per aisle. (e) The City may require a vehicle stacking study to determine whether more or less stacking shall be required for a particular use. (t) Stacking areas shall not interfere with vehicular circulation in the parking lot nor encroach into any required drive aisles. (g) Speaker or intercom system shall not be audible at the property line. (h) A Fast Food Restaurant with a drive-thru may not exceed 1,550 square feet in area. SITE PLAN ANALYSIS Milio's Sandwich shop is interested in occupying the space. There are currently two Milio's shops in Eden Prairie; one shop with a drive-thru and the other without. Staff visited the shop with the drive-thru on a week day and observed the traffic patterns for approximately 45 minutes from 11 :45 a.m. until 12:30 p.m. There were a maximum of six cars in the drive-thru lane at the time when staff was observing the site. Staff then visited the site in Chanhassen and attempted to visualize transforming it to accommodate a drive-thru window. A layout was then designed that can allow acceptable traffic circulation on the site. ,. ~ f~r. ~, _~~J ..4 .. r". ';...~ .t! The layout included a driveway dedicated to the drive-thru window, traffic moving one way, and parking spaces replacing those that have been removed due to the placement of the drive-thru lane. Arboretum Shopping Center Planning Case 08-22 January 12, 2009 Page 6 of 11 This layout was given to the applicant with detailed explanations of staffs concerns and the reasoning behind it. Applicant's revised plan Westwood Professional Services, Inc. submitted a plan on behalf of Leutem Property Management, LLC for site changes to the property located at 7755 Century Boulevard for the installation of a drive-thru facility. The plan incorporates comments received from the October, 2008 submittal. The applicant proposes to allow one-way traffic along the west and south side of the building. Upon entering the one-way aisle, drivers can either enter the drive thru or the parking lot. A raised, landscaped boulevard is proposed between the parking lot and the drive-thru to provide drivers with a visual distinction between the two areas. Additional 60-degree angled parking is shown on the south side of the building. This parking will replace parking spaces that are removed due to the location of the drive thru lane. The western three angled parking stalls must be striped and signed as compact stalls so that the minimum 18.5- foot drive aisle requirement can be achieved. Arboretum Shopping Center Planning Case 08-22 January 12,2009 Page 7 of 11 The order board is shown on the west side of the existing building, just north of the entrance. The pickup window is shown on the south side of the building. The proposed improvements will allow for four vehicles to queue at the order board (including the vehicle at the order board) and four vehicles to queue between the order board and the pickup window (including the vehicle at the pickup window). The owner proposes to modify the curb layout on the west and south sides of the building to accommodate the drive-thru. A 12-foot wide drive aisle is proposed for the drive-thru. Two- way traffic can still be accommodated on the 29-foot wide (minimum) drive aisle on the south side of the building. The current outdoor patio located southwest of the building is proposed to be relocated northwest of the building. The Planned Unit Development allows a maximum hard surface coverage of 70%. The existing hard surface coverage of the planned unit development is 68.3%. The overall green space on the site will be increased by 205 square feet. \'- -tI ~ u II D I ~ Applicant's proposal Staff's Proposed Revision Staff is proposing to relocate the patio and main entrance as shown in the above exhibit. Moving the entrance to the north will separate pedestrian from vehicular traffic. Additionally, it will also reduce the hard surface coverage on the site and move the outdoor seating area farther from the order box. It is staffs opinion that the existing location of the entrance separates the use of this space from the rest of the development. Moving the door to the north will allow the space to become part of the Arboretum Village Development. Arboretum Shopping Center Planning Case 08-22 January 12, 2009 Page 8 of 11 PARKING TABULATIONS The city's parking ordinance requires: . One parking space for each 60 square feet of restaurant without an on-sale liquor license. . One parking space for each 200 square feet of retail. The parking for this site was approved with the original approval in 2003. The restaurant portion of the building requires 25 parking spaces. The remainder of the building which is a gas station with a convenience store has an area of3,972 square feet which requires 20 parking spaces. Total parking required per ordinance is 45 spaces. This number appeared to be excessive since, in all likelihood, people buying gas will remain parked at the gas pumps, walk into the store, and pay their bill and leave. There are 16 parking spaces at the gas pumps. Based upon that method of calculation, the City Council approved a total of 44 parking spaces. The overall number of parking spaces will remain the same. Previously, the applicant had requested a variance for the overall required number of parking spaces. The plans have been revised to replace the parking which, in turn, eliminated the variance. The plan proposed by the applicant replaces all parking spaces that were removed due to the location of the drive thru. Parking spaces will be moved to the south portion of the site. The planned unit development ordinance governing this site allows parking spaces to encroach into the 50-foot required setback if the parking is screened. The proposed parking spaces will maintain a setback of 20 feet from the southerly property line and are proposed to be fully screened. SITE PLAN NEW DRIVE-THRU WINDOW. G.C. TO COORDINATE LOCATION & SIZE. RECESSED LIGHTING l! UNDERSIDE OF CANOPY As stated earlier, the applicant is proposing to add a drive-thru window along the south elevation of the building. Arboretum Shopping Center Planning Case 08-22 January 12,2009 Page 9 of 11 LANDSCAPING REQUIREMENTS The applicant is required to buffer the parking stalls fronting Highway 5 and add landscaping within the proposed island. To screen headlights and views of the parking area, shrubs will be required along the parking area adjacent to Highway 5. The applicant has proposed 52 Techny arborvitaes to be installed parallel to the curb line. These evergreen shrubs will serve to screen headlights from westbound Highway 5. Any existing bufferyard plantings that are removed for the development must be replaced within the same area. The applicant may group plantings together in order to add interest to the landscaping if the design does not diminish the screening capacity. SITE PLAN FINDINGS In evaluating a site plan and building plan, the City shall consider the development's compliance with the following: (1) Consistency with the elements and objectives of the city's development guides, including the comprehensive plan, official road mapping, and other plans that may be adopted; (2) Consistency with this division; (3) Preservation ofthe site in its natural state to the extent practicable by minimizing tree and soil removal and designing grade changes to be in keeping with the general appearance of the neighboring developed or developing areas; (4) Creation of a harmonious relationship of building and open space with natural site features and with existing and future buildings having a visual relationship to the development; (5) Creation of functional and harmonious design for structures and site features, with special attention to the following: a. An internal sense of order for the buildings and use on the site and provision of a desirable environment for occupants, visitors and general community; b. The amount and location of open space and landscaping; c. Materials, textures, colors and details of construction as an expression of the design concept and the compatibility of the same with adjacent and neighboring structures and uses; and d. Vehicular and pedestrian circulation, including walkways, interior drives and parking in terms of location and number of access points to the public streets, width of interior drives and access points, general interior circulation, separation of pedestrian and vehicular traffic and arrangement and amount of parking. Arboretum Shopping Center Planning Case 08-22 January 12, 2009 Page 10 of 11 (6) Protection of adjacent and neighboring properties through reasonable provision for surface water drainage, sound and sight buffers, preservation of views, light and air and those aspects of design not adequately covered by other regulations which may have substantial effects on neighboring land uses. Finding: The proposed development is consistent with the city's comprehensive plan and the zoning ordinance. The applicant is increasing the green space on the site. Site circulation is of concern; however, it can be redesigned to avoid conflicts. Staff is recommending approval of the request with conditions. RECOMMENDATION Staff recommends that the City Council adopt the following motions: PUD AMENDMENT: "The City Council approve the Planned Unit Development amendment for Arboretum Village (PUD 99-02), Planning Case #08-22, amending the design standards Section b. Permitted Uses, to allow a drive-thru on Lot 2, Block 1, Arboretum Shopping Center, with the following standards: Drive-thru facilities for any use shall comply with the following standards: (a) They shall not be located adjacent to any residential lot lines. (b) They shall be provided with a suitable visual screen from adjacent properties. (c) Stacking shall be provided within applicable parking lot setbacks. (d) Stacking shall meet the following standards: (1) Fast Food Restaurant: six cars per aisle. (2) Banks: three cars per aisle. (3) Pharmacy: two cars per aisle. (4) All other uses: two cars per aisle. (e) The City may require a vehicle stacking study to determine whether more or less stacking shall be required for a particular use. (t) Stacking areas shall not interfere with vehicular circulation in the parking lot nor encroach into any required drive aisles. (g) Speaker or intercom system shall not be audible at the property line. (h) A Fast Food Restaurant with a drive-thru may not exceed 1,550 square feet in area." SITE PLAN AMENDMENT: "The City Council approves the site plan amendment for Arboretum Shopping Center (Site Plan 03- 06), Planning Case #08-22, to allow a drive-thru window and redesign parking layout and site circulation as shown in plans dated received December 15, 2008, with the following conditions and based on adoption of the attached Findings of Fact: Arboretum Shopping Center Planning Case 08-22 January 12, 2009 Page 11 of 11 1. Approval of the site plan is contingent upon approval of the PUD amendment allowing a drive-thru window. 2. The western three angled parking stalls must be striped and signed as compact stalls. 3. Any existing bufferyard plantings that are removed for the development must be replaced within the same area. A landscape plan must be submitted to the city for approval showing locations and species. The applicant may group plantings together in order to add interest to the landscaping if the design does not diminish the screening capacity. 4. The applicant shall relocate the patio and main entrance into the space as shown in Exhibit A. " ATTACHMENTS ~~ Patio ~.! " ~l .~, LI , "<<: ';., .~~ ~ D H 1. Ordinance amending Arboretum Village PUD. 2. Revised site plan dated received December 15,2008. g:\plan\2008 planning cases\08-22 aIboretum shopping center minor pud amendment for drive-thru\Second Staff Report.doc CITY OF CHANHASSEN CARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIES, MINNESOTA ORDINANCE NO. ----- AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CHAPTER 20 OF THE CHANHASSEN CITY CODE, THE CITY'S ZONING ORDINANCE, BY AMENDING A PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF CHANHASSEN ORDAINS: Section 1. Chapter 20 of the Chanhassen City Code, the City's zoning ordinance, is hereby amended by amending the Arboretum Village Planned Unit Development Design Standards, Section b. Permitted Uses, to read as follows: PUD DEVELOPMENT DESIGN STANDARDS b. Permitted Uses The permitted uses within the neighborhood commercial zone should be limited to appropriate commercial and service uses consistent with the neighborhood. The uses shall be limited to those as defined herein. If there is a question as to whether or not a use meets the definition, the Planning Director shall make that interpretation. The type of uses to be provided on this outlot shall be low-intensity neighborhood-oriented retail and service establishments to meet daily needs of residents. Such uses may include the following: . Small to medium-sized restaurant without drive-thru windows unless they meet the following standards: (a) They shall not be located adjacent to any residential lot lines. (b) They shall be provided with a suitable visual screen from adjacent properties. (c) Stacking shall be provided within applicable parking lot setbacks. (d) Stacking shall meet the following standards: (1) Fast Food Restaurant: six cars per aisle. (2) Banks: three cars per aisle. (3) Pharmacy: two cars per aisle. (4) All other uses: two cars per aisle. ( e) The City may require a vehicle stacking study to determine whether more or less stacking shall be required for a particular use. (t) Stacking areas shall not interfere with vehicular circulation in the parking lot nor encroach into any required drive aisles. (g) Speaker or intercom system shall not be audible at the property line. (h) A Fast Food Restaurant with a drive-thru may not exceed 1,550 square feet in area and must be located on Lot 2, Block 1, Arboretum Shopping Center. I . Office . Day care . Neighborhood scale commercial . Convenience store . Churches . Other similar type and scale uses as described in the Comprehensive Plan. No single use shall exceed 5,000 square feet. Section 2. This ordinance shall be effective immediately upon its passage and publication. PASSED AND ADOPTED by the Chanhassen City Council this 12th day of January, 2009. ATIEST: Todd Gerhardt, Clerk/Manager Thomas A. Furlong, Mayor (Published in the Chanhassen Villager on , 2009. 2 (~ I III II( III ~I I , [' ~ f U. , fit II 'I! .. I mr [I g f I I .. F; f~1 I ~ ~~ r l i /('" /" \ (,'\.., "---~,-" I q I / I ? J ! ~ i i . I I I I .J' I I ! I' :1 I I II 11 ,I I) ! ./" " II r ~~ I ~ ; I ~ ~ ~ >>1 T U r<y f3UUll\' f\ D /.--~<<=.~---=--- -"-..;:;:::;.;::--~ - - - -~~:~ --- .._"--"::.~~~') "" ~:,:f; ',J ~~~ i-;i CJ c :J /1':::";,/\) _ i I I ,I; 1["1' I I' ,\~ I I I s \:~,::f~~;qi0~(:~i-'~' !! ib___ I U :~~~ l-j "C~--'---'-'------'--~.':-.~'f'~'T_ _:'':5': ~~,~~, -- '\', ~\ u ," U ~II p ~ p p ~ ~ ~ ~ f ~ ~ >; ~I? ~ ; ~m !~ m I~ ~i~ ~ '6'6 I~ ~ ~a 01 a ~~il! ~ Ii ~ i ~ :~ 10 Ilihi : Il~ i~ "'-5O-~ a I~ :~! ~~~ i li~ ~ n~ ~ sa ~ g > > a ~~ . ~ 'l!i~~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ 2. :I 2 i0 II i 6~~11l i $U II ~ p; n ihd I ~ 5 ~ p lIill ~ ;;;; ~~, IIi l! Bi hd i 55 ill ~ i ~ I ~~ i! .. . I II ~ ~c ~ ~r' III ~ 2! ~ " E I II ~ i ~ ~ ~~ " ~~ i f I a , s p City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Councilman Litsey: I was just going to, I agree with those comments and although again it may seem like a lengthy process, I think through this it gives everybody a comfort level and I appreciate the council's insight on this too. It was helpful to me because I haven't had as many of these before me as some other people on the council so this certainly did help and I think with conditions set forth, so I too support this so. Mayor Furlong: Is there any other discussion? If not we have a motion before us that's been modified with a condition and subject to the Findings of Fact being presented in the next meeting, is that correct? Kate Aanenson: That's correct. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Is there any other discussion? Councilman McDonald moved, Councilwoman Ernst seconded that the City Council approve Planning Case 08-19 for a 15 foot shoreland setback variance to construct a 15 by 20 foot enclosed structure on Lot 12, Block 1, Sunrise Hills Addition and adopt Findings of Fact to be supplied by staff at the next City Council meeting, with the following condition: 1. Design the roof such that drainage off the roof is not concentrated to create hazards to the bluff below. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to O. ARBORETUM SHOPPING CENTER. 7755 CENTURY BOULEVARD, KLMS GROUP. LLC: REQUEST FOR A MINOR PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT (PUD) AMENDMENT TO ALLOW A DRIVE- THRU AND SITE PLAN REVIEW WITH VARIANCES: LOT 2, BLOCK 1. ARBORETUM SHOPPING CENTER. Public Present: Name Address Bryan Monahan Andrew Ronningen Lynne Etling 7500 West 78th Street, Edina 2669 West 78th Street 7681 Century Boulevard Kate Aanenson: Thank you Mayor, members of the City Council. I'm going to pass around, there's two letters of support that came with this project. This item appeared before the Planning Commission on October 22nd. The applicant is requesting to amend the PUD to allow for a drive thru window. The subject site is located at a neighborhood commercial zoning district, as I mentioned done as a PUD that's located down on the northeast comer of Highway 5 and Century Boulevard, bordered by West 78th. This is one of those pocket neighborhoods that we put in place with the upgrade, or when we did the Highway 5 corridor study, to provide some convenience commercial for that neighborhood in this area. So again the applicant did appear before the Planning Commission and before I go through the slides I'll just summarize what the 20 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Planning Commission's discussion points were. And that was that the layout proposed, the applicant would block people on both sides of the stacking lanes, and it appeared that the parking spaces after you stack cars would not be able to back out. The Planning Commission also requested that the drive aisles.. . drive thru be counted. The applicant requested that the drive aisles be counted as parking space, and the Planning Commission disagreed with that interpretation. Pedestrians must cut through the travel lane to get to the building, and I'll show a little bit more on that in a minute. And the Planning Commission also asked the applicant, the intended use to go in there, if they could go in without the drive thru window, and I think that was a concern when we look at neighborhood zoning districts as a whole. We have some other neighborhood zoning districts that we haven't allowed that so they did spend some time on that. And also the layout that the staff had recommended. The applicant disagreed with that, although I think we could move towards some ofthat. There's still some underlying concerns with that. Again in 2003, when this project did come to the Planning Commission we, the staff remained neutral in presenting a drive thru at that time and the Planning Commission had recommended no on that, so I'll spend a little bit more time on that in a minute. And then they also, the final thing that the Planning Commission talked about when they recommended against was the one way traffic through the gas station during rush hour and Nick and Willy's may present a problem. So with that I'll just kind of go through the proposed project itself. This is the original site plan that came through in 2003. The applicant at that time, and I'm not sure if anybody remembers but at that time they were looking at a drive thru coffee shop and it was integrated into the back of the design. At that time, again the staff, because it was a neighborhood zoning district, took a neutral position. We actually had Findings of Fact for and against, and the Planning Commission in looking at that drive thru, even though you could see that there were 6 stacking stalls separated from the access to the gas station and the other uses itself, completely separated, they still were concerned about the precedent at that time. And actually by the time it got to the City Council, this council actually deferred on it for a couple meetings too. Spent a lot of time studying it. Asked staff to go look at some other applications so in that time, at that time it was determined that that probably was not a good use, and the use itself went even a little bit further. If you look at the architectural compatibility, and this is the use itself is that we actually put on the back side of the building, so when you're looking from Highway 5 you wouldn't see it. It was actually integrated into the building itself. You can see the enter, so it was architecturally compatible so you wouldn't see it from the other side either, so it really had the least amount of visual impact. And so even at that, the Planning Commission and the council ultimately decided that they did not want to support. So here we are, a number of years later and the applicant is requesting the drive thru. And you can see on this application the drive thru again is on the north side. Again, it's further away from the residents but it's, as far as visual impact, it's not the preferred choice but based on now the current layout of the business itself, how it's function, the kitchen, the bathrooms and the like, this is what they thought was the best location for that drive thru. So we did go look at the use that wanted to go in there, how it operates in Eden Prairie. Went through the operation and this is the larger view. I'll go to a closer view where you actually, you have segmented uses so you actually have more stacking that you're not crossing through the traffic at the main entrance. And a close up of that would be, there's a car wash, if you can follow the arrow here to the car wash that goes one way. I believe it goes the other way, and then to go through Milio's, you're coming back through the opposite way so there is, they're not, you don't have pedestrians crossing to get into the business on this so it's a little bit different, and they had the segment in stacking space which this one didn't. So right away again 21 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 in looking at doing a PUD amendment for a drive thru, we're not limiting what type of use can go there. Obviously depending upon how much volume somebody else, marketing would look at that sort of thing but we're not limiting it to any particular user. It just says drive thru window. So in looking at kind of worst case/best case scenario. This was the staff's best attempt at making this work. Again the preferred alternative would have been on the back side, but trying to make this work. In replacing the additional parking stalls that were eliminated. Trying to reduce the area of conflict which would be, trying to get into the door here on this side. Where the restaurant would be. You're crossing through the travel lane of the drive thru, and that's where the Planning Commission struggled the most problematic portion of that. And this was the applicant's drawing for that. Again the staff's concern is that we had conflicting, the way this would back in here, you could actually block the traffic coming through the business itself. There wasn't additional parking provided with this application. Again that area of concern. And then these seemed to be also difficult because you're coming through the drive thru so you're losing these and these may be difficult to back out of too when you've got accelerating traffic coming out ofthe drive thru itself. So here's a little close up again kind of again highlighting exclusive stacking space for vehicles waiting to place your orders is not provided so you're, the vehicles waiting to stack at the menu or the order place could also be blocking the traffic and then the potential for the vehicle conflict coming the other way, or people coming out because it's narrow right through there. So again the Planning Commission did recommend denial of the application for reasons that I stated in the staff report and so with that I'd be happy to answer any questions that you do have. The motion that we had for you is placed on the front page of the application. Mayor Furlong: Questions for staff. Councilman McDonald: Did you actually propose to the applicant your design? Kate Aanenson: Yes we did. Councilman McDonald: What kind of feedback did you get? Kate Aanenson: Well I think at the Planning Commission there was a lot of resistance but I think between now and then trying to meet all that before it went to City Council, I think they're willing to meet some of those designs. The concern that we had is that, I think the biggest issue here is if you're willing to go forward with the PUD amendment. We didn't want to expend additional money that if you weren't going in that direction. I think if you're leaning that way and then you wanted to make some conditions, I think at this point we didn't want to spend, have the applicant spending additional dollars on that. Councilman McDonald: And then the other question I have, with the traffic flow the way it is towards the back, isn't that also the way you would go to get into the car wash? Kate Aanenson: That's correct. There is a couple ways to get through there but it does get a little congested. I think at the lunch hour time too when Nick and Willy's is a little bit busier. Councilman McDonald: Okay. That's all I have. 22 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Kate Aanenson: And Jimmy John's too. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Kate, did I read that there are additional parking spots that are going to be created? Kate Aanenson: That's what we had requested. The applicant at the Planning Commission didn't want to do that. I think they're willing to show that for you tonight and so I think that they'll talk to that but at this point I think we wanted to get just kind of a read before we spend money and go further into that, if they're willing to meet those, I think we can work through the design issues but I think what we wanted to get for the read is, what you're receptiveness to the drive thru was. Councilwoman Tjomhom: But the real issue is really is the traffic flow and the stacking. Kate Aanenson: Well, there's a couple issues. One, it's not the preferred design because we actually, the stacking is one but you're also taking pedestrian traffic, pedestrian movement through a travel lane for ordering food. And then it is, while it is a PUD and you could make conditions unique to this, but we've told other neighborhood commercial zoning that, it could be a precedent. Mayor Furlong: Other questions for staff at this point? And I guess clarifying at the Planning Commission they made a motion to deny the request. The applicant's. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Mayor Furlong: Okay. And I see in the staff report what some of the concerns were laid out there and one of them was, this was talked about 5 years ago in 2003 when this came through and are there any other, while it's a PUD. Kate Aanenson: Right. Mayor Furlong: It's a neighborhood business level of zoning effectively, correct? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Correct. Mayor Furlong: Okay. And so what else do we have in neighborhood, do we have any other restaurants drive thru in neighborhood business? Is at Galpin and 5 we have CVS and Kwik Trip. Kate Aanenson: There's no drive thru. The only thing that we've offered drive thru would be the banks, drug stores, dry cleaners would be the only ones to date that we've allowed the drive thru. So the other two uses up there that are food related are non-drive thru's either. That are contiguous to this. 23 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Mayor Furlong: Well and didn't we have a request for a drive thru at Chanhassen Crossings at 101 and Lyman just recently? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Mayor Furlong: And we put significant limitations on it. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Mayor Furlong: What did we end up doing there? Wasn't it, I mean that's a coffee shop. Kate Aanenson: Right. Mayor Furlong: It's not necessarily a restaurant so there were expectations of. Kate Aanenson: Yes, right. Yes, correct. Correct. Mayor Furlong: You keep saying correct. Kate Aanenson: It was for a coffee shop and the circulation was different and that I think. Mayor Furlong: But there were, it wasn't designed to be a food, or a restaurant there. Kate Aanenson: Correct. It was a very small area for what they wanted to look at was a coffee shop. But we've had other requests. We had requests for fast food down there and we recommended no on all that. We've also, there was the Subway across the street too that was looking at some of that but we had said no. That was also a PUD so. Councilman Litsey: Is it kind of, I mean I get the impression, and from reviewing this myself, that you're kind of trying to force something into an area that really isn't conducive to it or? Kate Aanenson: Right, well one of the staff struggle is, you know we'd like to see something successful in this building. That's critical. Councilman Litsey: Absolutely. Kate Aanenson: You know everybody would. And other uses have struggled there. We want this business to be successful so we tried to find a way to make it work and I'm just not sure we're there. In the design. Todd Gerhardt: And I think both the Planning Commission and staff are looking for a little direction from the council on this. You know this center has kind of struggled here for the last 5 years I think it's been there, and they're going on their third tenant in this building and we want to be successful. The strip retail has had multiple uses in there and you know we need something to really anchor this comer and the applicant feels as if a drive thru would help that. And one of the things, you know I haven't had a chance to talk to Roger on this but we could give it a shot 24 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 for the one tenant and then, with the POO amendment for Milio's, but if for some reason Milio's can't make it there, that that drive thru would only exist while that tenant was there. Councilman McDonald: Well that was the question I was kind of asking you on that because if. Todd Gerhardt: I know it's a challenge for Roger. Councilman McDonald: ...if this is a POO, if we issue it for the PUD, does that mean if this fails then a Starbuck's can corne in. They've got a drive thru? Roger Knutson: Without going into detail, I think we can get there but we would, due respect to the manager, we want to word it a little bit differently. Todd Gerhardt: You don't want to take that wording huh. Roger Knutson: You can't do a PUD amendment that's only applicable to Milio's. Todd Gerhardt: Right. Kate Aanenson: It would be sandwiched related. Todd Gerhardt: So can it be time related or use related. Roger Knutson: If you tried to make it an interim use within the POO that is possible but then you'd have to start over. There are other things I think we could fruitfully discuss and how we could limit that. Kate Aanenson: Such as trip generation, those sort of things. Yeah. Mayor Furlong: Variety of factors. What I'm hearing is there may be some flexibility if that's something we wanted to look at. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, and I think still we're still trying to struggle with the design. Mayor Furlong: But I hear, if Mr. Knutson is saying that there may be an opportunity to be a little more specific here without necessarily creating a city wide precedent, is that correct? There may be some opportunities. We might not get it done tonight but there may be some things we could do. Roger Knutson: I don't think we could word smith it tonight but I think if the council wants to go in that direction, we could corne back with something that will pin it down pretty good. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Kate Aanenson: And again just to be clear, I think there's some struggles of how much to spend on this and so we want to get some direction on that because we think we can make it better just 25 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 design wise, not even just with the window. The location. Moving some things but obviously there's some, I think some of the things that we are struggling with is the applicant's ability to invest in some of those. So we kind of want to find, get a read from you and to see where to go with that. Mayor Furlong: Alright. Councilwoman Tjomhom. Councilwoman Tjomhom: How's the gas station feel about the drive thru and all the traffic that will be coming through there? Todd Gerhardt: The owner of the gas station is the applicant. Kate Aanenson: It's the same. Councilwoman Tjomhom: It's the same, I'm sorry. Kate Aanenson: That's alright. Councilwoman Tjomhom: I didn't realize that. Mayor Furlong: Any other questions of staff at this time? If not, we will invite the applicant to come forward and address the council. Is there anything you'd like to say? Good evening. Mark Leutem: Hi. My name is Mark Leutem. I am the, I'm going to say one of the owners of the gas station, which includes the car wash and the tenant space that we're looking to fill. Just a little quick, a quick background. Family owned and operated business. It started in the fall of 2004. My family, I actually married into this thing. My wife was starting this investment at the time we were engaged and becoming married and so I'm the fix up guy anyway. But the point is that the business in that location has under performed. We're doing about, somewhere between 28%. About 30% of what the business was originally projected to do. We are the owners of the real estate and the operator that was supposed to be in there lasted 18 months and he went bankrupt. In the restaurant space in the front there, that's had 2 other operators. First one went bankrupt after about a year. Second one, I'm not sure where he is. I think he's back in Mexico or something. Anyway, but the point is that we, the word struggle was used earlier and that's a very, very solid word and I don't mind saying we've probably put in about $15,000 a month on average to keep this thing going. Part of the strategy to get this business to just start to take care of itself includes putting a solid tenant into that space. Being in the real estate world we went out to find potential tenants. We talked to brokers and agents and we talked to Caribou. We talked to Starbucks. We talked to Dunn Brothers. None of those are options. They want to be on the other side of the street for their particular reasons in what they do, so unless I can bring it across the street, they're not a consideration. We went to McDonald's. We went to the Noodles and Company. You pick the franchise. We've talked to all of them, and they're not all hard to talk to because a lot, a few brokers represent a lot of these folks. Those franchises require a square footage of at least 25,000 square feet. You may be able to squeeze them in there. Closer to 25. 28 to 30. I'm sorry, 2,800 to 3,000 square feet. 26 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Kate Aanenson: I was going to say. Mark Leutem: Yeah. We are way too small to be a McDonald's. And so those aren't options. We really need, and in fact as I've been interviewing potential tenants there, we really need to put a tenant in there that's going to stay, and a tenant business that's going to succeed. I've literally had some tenants come and look around and say, well yeah but a couple other businesses failed here and why did they. And when I explained, I don't think thing they had real good business plans. They did, for a number of different reasons. They couldn't get the traffic flow they needed or what not, and so the intent as the space is getting hexed. Okay so, I spoke with Mr. Moravec. Vic Moravec who has a franchise of Milio's franchise in Eden Prairie here. He's very excited. His company has done due diligence on it. Milio's is a franchise name. There's 50 stores in the Midwest. They have some name recognition in the area. Growing quickly. Very solid business. Well capitalized. Just the thing we're looking for. Requirement is he needs a drive up in order for the business model to work and succeed. So here we are today dealing with that particular issue. In the City Council meeting, as was brought up earlier, there was some resistance. I come today with no resistance to the staff at all. In fact I'm coming today to suggest that we look to try to get approval to this concept and then I would be more than happy to work with staff and staff's recommendations to follow a design that's developed that they're comfortable with. That meets the needs of our requirements of getting this accomplished and that staff could be perfectly comfortable in recommending. As was stated earlier, we can be close. I don't think we're quite there either. I had some disagreements before on how many cars are going to be stacked and what not. We're not going to do any of that tonight. But like I said I would like to work with the staff. Come up with something that makes sense. Since that city planning meeting, talked to some of the architects. Other developers and some other folks and some other ideas have been tossed out that haven't even been addressed together with myself and the staff so I think there's a number of different options that can be developed so this thing makes sense and is consistent. There was a question earlier about the possible congestion around my pumps. We would really love to have some congestion around my pumps. As I said before, we are less than third of the capacity that this business was originally projected to do. And so you know we'd like to do that. The other part of it too is you have to keep in mind that we are a continuous building so the traffic flow and sharing of parking space and entering and exiting is not uncommon. If you look in a number of different layouts in certain businesses, they can essentially be contiguous in each other. I think I've addressed all relevant points. Mayor Furlong: Very good, thank you. Any questions for Mr., is it Leutem? Mark Leutem: Leutem, yep. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Mr. Leutem. Councilman McDonald: I guess at this point then what you're telling us is, you're willing to work with staff as far as addressing some of these issues they have about traffic flow and the way traffic would be handled around the center. Mark Leutem: Correct. Yeah I envision that the design is what staff and I would put together and again that the staff would end up being comfortable with recommending it. 27 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Councilman McDonald: Are we close as far as what staff's proposed design was? Is that a good starting point? Mark Leutem: If you could go to the picture that. That one there. We can be close. I just thought, actually did think about something as I was sitting in the chair here, and I have to talk with Mr. Moravec but from a space standpoint, I mean we could move that window even further down, which would shorten the access points. Still get the 6 cars in there that they want, and so then that would get away with some of the cross traffic or the stuff walking across. And then they also with working with Westwood, they had a number of different recommendations about how that parking and that handicap could be redone so the flow is a little smoother and everything lays out a little bit easier. There's less construction. There's less changing of the berm and stuff like that, so I think there's a few other options again that haven't even gotten to the table discussing how the design would go. Councilman McDonald: Okay. Mark Leutem: But generally speaking we're you know generally going this direction. Todd Gerhardt: Is there the possibility of moving that front door over to the north side of the building? Because then it'd keep people away from that drive thru. Mark Leutem: Yeah, everything's possible. I think. Todd Gerhardt: We'll design it right here. Sorry. Mayor Furlong: No we won't. Mark Leutem: One of the things, one of the things when I was with my concrete folks is that, you can see that takes away part of the sidewalk that's like right in front. And actually when you take that out and you get on the scene and you put a tape measurer to that, there's enough room to leave that sidewalk going all the way and still get the lane in there. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, it's the issue we had,just to be clear, you know as you're crossing. People aren't going to walk all the way, yeah. We can work on it. Todd Gerhardt: We won't design it here. Mayor Furlong: Any other questions this evening for Mr. Leutem? We may have some others as you... Mark Leutem: Well yeah. Mayor Furlong: If you watched the earlier one. Mark Leutem: Yeah, I don't have any other plans. 28 City Council Meeting - November 10,2008 Mayor Furlong: We never close out our right to ask questions so. Councilwoman Ernst: Well I just have a comment that when you were talking about moving the window to make the traffic flow a little easier, I see Kate shaking her head and, yes. So I'm encouraged to hear that the two of you will work something out and bring it back. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. I know there was a public hearing at the Planning Commission. I don't know if there are other members of the public here present that want to comment on this. With Mr. Herbst standing, I'm guessing the answer to my question is yes there are so we'll take some public comment here as well. Good evening. Dan Herbst: Good evening. Honorable Mayor, members of the City Council. Professional staff. My name is Dan Herbst. 7640 Crimson Bay Road in Chanhassen and also co-owner with Ron Clark of Century Wine and Spirits. We are, before I give you points that point out, talk to you about. We are running low of wine club memberships before the holiday season so if you want to sign up tonight. Mayor Furlong: I don't think this is an opportunity for advertisements. We'll let this one go. Dan Herbst: First of all I apologize for not being here at the Planning Commission meeting. We would have liked to state our case as well as other people at the Planning Commission but we didn't see it as a real issue and I think when you assume something like that, you always make mistakes so I apologize for not being here. But you know from the obvious point of view you already know there's a road already that loops the south side of that building. From a precedent setting point of view you already have a drive thru on that PUD with the car wash. I've been in this business about 40 years and I, in both the commercial and the residential end and you know looking at your Findings of Fact you know this drive thru window is very, very consistent in my opinion with all of the other uses that are part of the Arboretum Center there. I see no inconsistency whatsoever. There's also some mention in your Findings of Fact about lowering property values. I think that's invalid also. So I think it's consistent with your PUD. It's going to boost all the businesses in that area. That place has been open and closed, as Mark mentioned to you, about 3 different times. I think it's compatible with all your performance standards of your planned unit development. You know and just on a personal issue, having 8 grandchildren a drive thru is a real, real plus. When you've got to bail kids in and out of those seats and watch them run across the street to go into a restaurant, a drive thru is a real great thing, and all of you that have had children, and more so if you're handicap. And so I think there's a real advantage to a drive in window so I strongly recommend that you would approve this and I like the theory that Kate has put up, that if you approve the drive thru concept on this site, which is, and the drive up window, I think the details can be worked out with Mark and Kate and Paul as far as the parking and the traffic and everything else but I strongly would recommend that you would approve this tonight from the concept of allowing the drive and drive thru window and let the details be worked out with staff so. Are there questions? Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Herbst? No? 29 City Council Meeting - November 10,2008 Dan Herbst: Okay, thank you. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Lynne Etling: I would like to speak as well. Mayor Furlong: Please come forward. Lynne Etling: My name is Lynne Etling and I actually live at 7681 Century Boulevard, and I just broke your thing. I think I got it. I can't give as eloquent a speech as he did but I would like to talk about the proposed change here. Mayor Furlong: If you could, your address again ma' am. Lynne Etling: 7681 Century Boulevard. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Lynne Etling: I live within 500 feet of the development. Mayor Furlong: Great, thank you. Lynne Etling: And I also spoke as well at the Planning Commission and I'm not going to take up your time going through everything that they have already discussed here. However, you know I do want to strongly stress that they are asking for a variance. There is a lot of if, and's or but's. Nothing out here is laid in factual, what they're planning to do now and as far as what I can see, was not copied on the letter of approval from whoever supporting it. But when you talk about you have a business. Obviously it didn't have a great business plan to begin with. The people that have been in there have been in and out. The last company that was in there actually had their children in there all the time so obviously when you have little children running around, you're not going to do a great deal of business with your restaurant. It's not conducive. So as far as the people that live in that area, I don't feel that you know I'm sorry but I do feel our property values are going to go down because of this because everyone is going to go in there. There's going to be a lot more traffic. You're trying to pull traffic from the commuters instead of the people that live there. There's a lot of differences to this with what they're proposing. I mean a lot of changes to it and frankly they're trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It just doesn't fit. This is not made for a drive thru and the people that are going to go in there are going to come back out. Go onto the road. Do a U'y. Creating a traffic problem which is the primary concern for me and then go back out onto Highway 5. So there's a lot of things here. I don't think hardship is proven. My property value has gone down tremendously since when I purchased my home not even 2 years ago, but you know that's not taken into account. There's a lot of things here that you know I just don't support it. I don't want to see your business fail. However I don't want my property value to go down even more. I don't want to have a wreck when I'm trying to get out of the neighborhood. You've got one business compared to I don't know how many homes that are there. 500 personal units? You know I don't want to waste your time. I think you know that he's trying to do his best that he can. However Ijust don't, I still 30 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 feel that it's a square peg in a round hole, and unless they take the drive thru out, you know Ijust don't think that it's feasible. Mayor Furlong: Okay. And if I may question. You talk about U turns. Is that traffic that exits the entrance on Century Boulevard is right-in/right-out, is that correct? Kate Aanenson: Yeah. Lynne Etling: Right. And they'll come out. It's not a one way. Mayor Furlong: There it is. That's good. So they. Kate Aanenson: Correct. So you could come back out this way and then try to go up and around. Lynne Etling: And that's what everyone does. Kate Aanenson: Right. Lynne Etling: That's what they do now. Kate Aanenson: Certainly that would be one of the issues that we'd look at too is controlling some of that. If you were to consider. Councilman Litsey: Another thing you could do is like a No U Turn sign there or something. Kate Aanenson: I think there is one. Lynne Etling: There is one there now and they just don't do it. Kate Aanenson: They still do it. Councilman Litsey: Is there one there now? Kate Aanenson: Yes there is. People ignore it. Councilwoman Tjornhom: I've never seen it either. Mayor Furlong: If I could. Lynne Etling: Maybe there isn't, I don't know. But there should be. Mayor Furlong: And I think, Ms. Etling, that's a valid point in terms of traffic flow. Not just within the development but on the streets surrounding it. If we're already having problems, that's an issue that we should probably be looking at, and I know Mr. Herbst is here and others and maybe I mean regardless of where we go on this, if this goes forward, at least from tonight 31 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 we're talking about it and we haven't even talked about it yet. There have been suggestions that we look at it from a concept and then get into the details and then bring something back. But to your point, we could all look at and evaluate. Lynne Etling: Right. Mayor Furlong: Because there really isn't anything here but a concept at this point. Lynne Etling: Right, and I don't see a win/win for everyone here yet. Mayor Furlong: Okay. And understand that but I'm wondering if we already are having some problems with traffic flows, and maybe we are, maybe we aren't in terms of the U turns there. People coming out. Going up. Turning back around to get out to Highway 5. Lynne Etling: In the summer when they do the re-paving, the main thing that you see is the path for the U turn. Mayor Furlong: And as I recall this was, we were looking at pedestrian traffic as well as car traffic and when this development originally went through. Kate Aanenson: That's correct. Mayor Furlong: There were some, there were concerns at that time so. Lynne Etling: Right, and this would change the platform that you have there. The footprint of that whole development. Mayor Furlong: Perhaps from a volume standpoint. Lynne Etling: Right. Well and you're attracting metro traffic instead of urban. Mayor Furlong: Yeah. Okay. Kate Aanenson: Mayor if I may just make one point, just to be clear on the process here. They're asking for a PUD amendment, and the variance was because they didn't want to provide the additional parking. I heard Mr. Leutem say that he was willing to meet the standards for that so the variance would go away. Not to dismiss the other concerns, but then it would just be the PUD amendment which is a little bit different standard. Lynne Etling: Right, which would be setting precedent for the. Kate Aanenson: I don't disagree with that but Ijust want to make sure if, he had agreed to put the parking in. That was what the variance for. 32 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Lynne Etling: May I ask one question that I didn't think to ask earlier at the Planning Commission? When you say that you did a study of the drive thru stack lane at the Eden Prairie location, was that a qualified, certified traffic inspector or was it just an employee? Kate Aanenson: Yep. Well City Engineer. Assistant City Engineer, correct. Who I believe is qualified to make... Lynne Etling: But not a traffic engineer through right? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Lynne Etling: Okay. Councilman McDonald: Can I ask just one question? Mayor Furlong: Councilman McDonald. Councilman McDonald: Do you feel, if we could solve the traffic problem, does that make this a little bit more attractive to coming in to the community? Lynne Etling: Well I would love to have a coffee shop to be honest with you. But I mean 3 sub shops within you know, what 500-600 feet of each other. Ijust don't think that's a good business plan. Councilman McDonald: Well that's probably up to the individual businesses but my point is, what I'm hearing is traffic seems to be the biggest problem and if that's something we were to concentrate on and improve, whether the business succeeds or not is up to the business. Would that make it make it more attractive as far as you know coming into the neighborhood itself? Lynne Etling: As long as it was enforced. Councilman McDonald: I beg your pardon? Lynne Etling: As long as it's enforced. I mean that's the biggest issue is they're, you know it's out there. It's mainly for that Arboretum Village and you know I'm sorry if, I've been a frequent visitor of both of them. I have a membership at the Wine Club and I used to go to the restaurants since I've been there too. However I didn't like the children running around while I was trying to have a quiet dinner. You know it just wasn't good business. But to have something like that going around the whole building and blocking all the individual parking spaces, even if he does create more, you've still got the hazard of trying to have the cars backing in and out while someone is stacking there. I mean that's what I'm meaning when I'm saying you're trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It's just you know, no matter how you design it, unless you would, you know you'd have to totally redo the whole thing. Put the driveway on the other side or something so you have more stacking lane. I don't know. Councilman McDonald: Okay. 33 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Mayor Furlong: Well thank you. I appreciate your comments. Lynne Etling: Thank you. Mayor Furlong: It's been helpful. Thank you for your involvement. Is there anyone else who'd like to come up. Good evening sir. Brian Monahan: Hi there. My name is Brian Monahan. I'm with Ron Clark Construction. We are the owners of Lot 1, Block 1. It's the center north of the gas station. Mayor Furlong: So I'm sorry. The one you're highlighting now? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Mayor Furlong: Just straight north. Okay, thank you. Brian Monahan: We actually favor this action. We would like to see increased traffic to our center. Currently we're at 67% occupied in our center. We've been that way for about 2 years. Naturally if more folks are coming in to the center, then that's a bigger possibility for not only our tenants to succeed better as far as our center is concerned, but also the gas station and whatever tenant they might have. We've found that, I've been with Ron Clark for 2 years and for the last 2 years we haven't had a tenant on the end cap, which we would love to have a coffee shop as well. But unfortunately everyone wants a drive thru. That's what we found is that everyone and a drive thru. While we might be jealous of them being able to get their drive thru, because then we won't get our coffee shop, we would also welcome the added traffic that it would bring to the center. And I know I can speak for several of our tenants. One of them is here. That they also welcome the possibility of additional traffic to the center. Obviously traffic, whether it's pedestrian or just regular folks getting a sub or whatever, attracts more business to their businesses. A Karate studio for instance. A Pilates class. Edward Jones is in there. It's a financial planning company, and then of course the liquor store. I know I can speak for at least all of them that more traffic is better for us. We feel that it's possible to work this out, being in the real estate business ourselves, and also the development and construction business. We can actually see that there's a couple of possibilities that might be able to work out if we're given the chance to move forward with that. And that's pretty much our stance. As far as the real estate values. I think we can all agree that most real estate has kind of gone down from the last probably 2-3 years. I don't live anywhere near any of this, which I would actually welcome, but my house value has gone down as well so. I mean it's, I think that's kind of a moot point to be honest. And the last thing I'll say is, is that there is actually two entrances. There's an entrance and an exit out. Whether folks move out through the entrance or in through the out-trance, or the out or what have you, you know it's, I think it's kind of neither here or there to be honest. Frankly if the direction of travel, which has been proposed by staff, those folks are more likely to drive past the pumps and out the other entrance over there on whatever, West 78th Street. That to me just seems like a natural. As I'm looking at it, that's probably the way I would go out. 34 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Mayor Furlong: Thank you. One question for you, since you brought up the subject that you would have been interested in a drive thru. Brian Monahan: Sure. Mayor Furlong: If the council were to go forward with the concept this evening, would you be requesting a drive thru then at some future date for your building as well? Brian Monahan: Frankly we've kind of examined the possibility of a drive thru and we don't see a possibility for adding a drive thru, unless you were to build a lane on the back side of the building. We're not willing to do that. So the answer would be. Mayor Furlong: No. Or is the answer no? Brian Monahan: More than likely no. Todd Gerhardt: You got an engineering answer. Mayor Furlong: Alright, thank you. Any other questions for Mr. Monahan? Anyone else wishing to come up this evening? Andrew Ronningen: Good evening. My name is Andrew Ronningen. I am the owner of one of the business, the Fantastic Sams. It's right in the middle essentially of the Ron Clark building, and I just wanted to, I wrote a letter but I wanted to really just highlight a couple of points that are very important. When somebody is driving up towards this center, they see that vacant building that we're talking about for the drive thru, and obviously that's not appealing at all, and I think that prevents people from coming into the Arboretum Center. And so having a space there for that reason alone is important. And of course we all know that a lot of businesses like that, more than half their business comes through the drive thru. It's just the way we are with our cars and everything. We're a convenience, walk-in business and we're a proven business model. There are over 1,300 around the country that we've grown from 0 to about 80 Fantastic Sams just in Minnesota in the last 5-6 years. So they very rarely close and our salon is definitely under performing and we can see, and I can give you examples. I have other salons that I own and where there is more frequent and relevant traffic, like people coming through and being there, the salons perform much, much better so we would certainly benefit tremendously from increased traffic there. And as an owner I'm there you know 7:30 in the morning, noon, 10:30 at night. Saturday. Sunday's. All different times and I've walked around. I buy my gas at the gas station and once in a while go down to the wine store. Jimmy John's and so and as a pedestrian walking around, I've never had an issue with traffic. There just isn't that much traffic there now so my thought too is, even if there 50 more cars a day, you know I don't know that anybody would really notice. Because there is quite a bit of space and I rarely see anybody driving down in that lower loop anyway. I mean rarely. So I think that the impact is low but we're, you know we have 7 people. They're employed and have a lot of their livelihood based on that business, and we'd like to hire more and continue that, we'd also like to keep the jobs we have so from our perspective there too it's about keeping those jobs and filling up the center that we're in so that 35 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 we can be viable and offer great services for the surrounding neighbors because we're sensitive to what they need. So I appreciate being able to talk about that. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you sir. Any questions? Very good, thank you. Anyone else this evening that would like to provide public comment to the council. Yes. Mark Leutem: Just on the issue of U turns. If people are up there doing U turns, I mean that's something I would certainly agree needs to change as well. I don't want people doing that. I wouldn't have any problem with facilitating the direction out of the facility for them to go and use the other entrance going out to the other road, and it could be quite simple as putting a sign out there that says you know please exit this direction so I think we could channel traffic that direction. So that would certainly be an option. I mean another idea could be just re-direct all of County Road 5 right between the strip mall and my gas station and out there. Mayor Furlong: Just run the state highway right through. Mark Leutem: Just run it right through there. Plus put a stop light right in the middle of the building. Mayor Furlong: Right by your pumps. Mark Leutem: Alright, thank you. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Anyone else? Lynne Etling: May I have one quick question? Mayor Furlong: Sure. Absolutely. If you could wait til you get to the microphone please. Lynne Etling: Sure. In order to make this more feasible to us that live right there on the comer, if you're wanting to get increased traffic from the highway, from the commuters, is it possible for the City to plant more shrubbery, you know evergreens, whatever to buffer the noise that that would bring? Mayor Furlong: I think the answer, that was one of the things that was being discussed or laid out by staff too. If the landscaping plan might change. If this went forward, and I'll defer to Ms. Aanenson. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, I think those are all the things that we want to work on. I think just to, certainly to make sure that there's less impact. Lynne Etling: Yeah, because there's the big track right there that's directly across that is pretty barren that alleves all the noise then. 36 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Mayor Furlong: Just so I understand Ms. Etling the, when you talk about doing some additional landscaping, where on the property would you? Is it along Highway 5? Is it along Century Boulevard? It is along West 78th? Lynne Etling: No. Actually along your wetland area there across the street so it would buffer the people that live there. Mayor Furlong: Where she's pointing to right now with the arrow? Lynne Etling: Yes. Mayor Furlong: Okay. So you're saying between the business and the homes to the north? Lynne Etling: Yes. Mayor Furlong: Alright. I think we can take a look at the landscaping plan if we went forward, and I know that would be a part of it and I appreciate your. Lynne Etling: Because that's a wetland area behind me and what trees are there are pretty much dying and falling down. It's kind of a big eyesore because they haven't been taken care of, and that one area is all barren where trees probably were and they were taken down and nothing was replanted. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Lynne Etling: So that would help buffer the noise for us that live right there. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Lynne Etling: Thank you. Mayor Furlong: Thank you for the additional comments. Anyone else from a public comment standpoint? No? Thank you for everybody's thoughts and ideas and suggestions as well. Any follow-up questions at this point with staff? Maybe they'll come up as we discuss what's before us this evening. If not, is there any thoughts or comments? Councilman McDonald: The question I've got, do we really have something to vote on if everybody's willing to go back and talk to staff? Kate Aanenson: I guess we'd recommend probably tabling it. Right now the 60 days ends November 18th so I'd probably ask for an additional 60 days. Mayor Furlong: Is that a request or is that an automatic? It doesn't sound it like's going to be a problem. 37 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Kate Aanenson: It's automatic. Just to put them on notice that we'd be taking the extra 60 days and that we try to work through a design but again, in good faith with the applicant, if the council didn't even want to go there, we didn't want to pursue a lot of that interest. Mayor Furlong: I guess what I'm hearing is that if it's something from a concept standpoint that we're willing to support, and therefore would require time and effort on the part of staff as well as the property owners, the applicants, stuff like that, we could give them that direction this evening. Along with what sort of parameters we would like to see in that so they're not just working blind but as much direction as we could give them. If it's the council's desire not to go forward here this evening, then I think that's also direction that we'd want to give this evening. So that everybody knows and so it's, you know it doesn't drag on. Those would be my thoughts from what I'm hearing tonight and obviously I'm always open to listening what the rest of you think and I don't have all the answers. Most of them but not all of them. And I' 11 let you know which ones I have the answers to by the way so. So Councilman McDonald I think that to clarify I think what's before us tonight, I don't think we have enough tonight to approve something specifically. I think that was adequately raised, but more in front of us tonight is, is it a concept that we think makes sense for people to spend time on, that we'd be supportive of if certain parameters were met. Councilman McDonald: Okay. Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Tjornhom. Councilwoman Tjornhom: In regards to setting a precedent. I know that was one of the concerns the Planning Commission had for other planned unit developments or developments. What are we setting ourself up for, or not setting ourself up for? Kate Aanenson: Well I think the applicant, I'll just point out one thing. The applicant did point out the size. This is a smaller square footage area so we can quantify some of that. Because it wouldn't fit for a lot of the other fast food users, like McDonalds and some of that because we limit, we'd cap the square footage of that, that could absorb this type of use and I'll let the City Attorney address some other. Roger Knutson: Mayor, members of the council. I think with careful drafting, that shouldn't be a real concern. I think we can limit it to this, what we have here. Mayor Furlong: Other thoughts or comments? Councilman McDonald: Well I had a couple other thoughts and everything to me. I'm in favor of going forward. Anytime someone will come up and say they're willing to work with staff, I'm willing to listen. The other thing about the traffic though, I know down at Galpin this has come up before. It's a similar situation where you're coming out a Snyder Drug down there and people are making U turns, and I know that it's been addressed before and I'm not sure there's a lot we can do about it. I don't know what you can do about the U turns, and I guess at this point I would maybe want to consider that as something outside of the application here. It's something I would definitely encourage staff to look at, but I don't think we found a solution for Galpin yet, 38 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 and I'm not sure we're going to find a solution for this one, and I wouldn't necessarily want to tie that in to whether or not this project goes forward. Councilman Litsey: Yeah, I think any time you have a layout like this coming off a main thoroughway, and then you're going to come in and then the tendency is to want to cut comers to get back out again. I was glad you didn't say aggressive enforcement because I don't think, well they have the staffing to promise that but. Kate Aanenson: Well I think some of that can be addressed if we look at the traffic being generated. The directional. I think one of the issues that you have is just traffic as a whole so I think one of, the resident raised the issue regarding doing a better traffic study. What direction is that traffic coming and going. What are the peak hours of the use of the business and how that relates too so I think we can try to manage it from there, and then get some recommendations from the City Engineer. Councilman Litsey: Yeah, I think if you could do it from an engineering standpoint, but the one that comes to mind for me is the Cub Foods in Shorewood, right across from Chan but you know there's a no right turn there but I'll tell you, everybody makes. I mean so signs are pretty. I mean if you can do it through engineering it's a whole lot better. Kate Aanenson: Right. Yep. Mayor Furlong: And I guess to comment, in that particular development, the Cub Foods development, originally they didn't allow any egress out of the parking lot by the hardware store but everybody did it anyway so they ended up building the road to accommodate what people were doing. I'm not arguing that in this case. I think you know people will find, if you don't have a right turn lane on a busy road, they'll drive on the shoulder to get around cars and go. I think from a traffic standpoint the two issues here are, one, what's the traffic internal to this development if we were to go forward with this. What would be the traffic flow there, and how could we try to direct flow up to West 78th Street to exit as opposed to coming out on Century Boulevard. You raise a good point Councilman McDonald about the Galpin and 5 where the Kwik Trip and the CVS is. As I recall that CVS drive thru empties out going back to Galpin. Councilman McDonald: Right. Mayor Furlong: Here at least we've got traffic going the other way so there may be some accommodations there, but I think the key is, what can we do within the development and still make it something that people are going to follow because even if you create all sorts of things, you know you can only do so much. But I think traffic flow is clearly an issue that we want to look at here. Any other thoughts or comments on this at this point? No? Councilwoman Tjornhom, your thoughts. Councilwoman Tjornhom: No. Oh I'm sorry. Councilwoman Ernst: No, go ahead. 39 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 Councilwoman Tjornhom: I think it's something very worthy to be looking at. If it's, you know my only concern was the pedestrian traffic crossing over into the drive thru traffic and it sounds like you and the applicant can work together with that and I'm all in favor of any business being successful and having patrons come to it in Chanhassen, especially at that front space that does seem to so far not found a niche yet or something and so I wish you the best of luck and I look forward to working with you. With this project. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Councilwoman Ernst. Councilwoman Ernst: I too would be in favor of the concept and obviously we've had some tenants here tonight that have expressed being in favor of the business, of the drive thru and we also had a resident come in and express some concerns and it sounds like we have some possible solutions for the landscaping piece. And the fact that staff and the applicant can work together to come to a solution hopefully on the traffic flow and so I would be in favor of the concept. And moving forward. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Councilman Litsey. Thoughts. Councilman Litsey: No. I think they've been well stated. I think looking for some ways to direct traffic flow, other than, I mean signage helps but you know people are going to go the way they want regardless of that so you're going to have come up with something a little better than that. And respecting the residents, I think putting up some additional buffers there is reasonable and I think the rest is pretty well in hand. If we don't, you know if we're not setting precedent. I think I said that right. I never say that word right but you know then we can do that legally, then I think we're probably kind of getting there. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. I think one of the other roles that the 5 of us have is that of the Economic Development Authority, and while often that's an entity that's created for separate legal entity from the City for financing purposes. I always look at it as really one of our goals as a council is to promote and enhance our local economy. That's good for our businesses. It's good for our residents as well, and clearly I think in this development it has not achieved the potential and what many people hoped for and expected in terms of economic success. And here we have an opportunity perhaps to enhance that and do it in a way without setting precedent but at the same time do it in a way that makes some sense. So I would support the concept of going forward. I think from thoughts and comments I would tend to side towards staff's proposed design as opposed to what was presented before and I guess some examples I'll use is trying to separate, and here you may not be able to separate the pedestrians walking across the parking lot and through there, but perhaps with some median or something like that and a controlled crossing, or some signage you can do that. I think of the McDonald's in Excelsior where the drive thru comes right through the middle of the parking lot, and that is, it's a mess. It's a mess. Compared to the McDonald's in Chanhassen where the drive thru wraps around the perimeter and it's separated. Here we may not have that benefit of separation but I think through some of the designs that staff was looking at to try to mitigate some of that conflict, I think helps. So I think my tendency would be let's work with some of the outlines that staff has put together. You know from, is 6 cars, is 5 stacking and I think we can be flexible there. I think we need more than the 2 in some of the other situations so I think we can be a little flexible there. If we've got 40 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 some constraints here, I think 6 is a good standard overall for new development. Here we're trying to retrofit and so there may be some other constraints that we have to work in. So perhaps a little flexibility. I know it's not significant but perhaps moving a window can help reduce the amount of the drive thru lane and still get you your 6 cars and so looking for those accommodations. The other thing I would talk about, and I know Mr. Etling brought up the idea of landscaping. I want to make sure we don't leave false impressions here. That we're going to be landscaping across or requiring landscaping outside the property. I mean there's some limitations we have too. If we're looking at landscaping on the north side of West 78th, and there are two parcels inbetween so I think that's something we can look at, so I don't want to leave with false impressions that we're going to be doing that, but I think we need to look at that. See what can be accommodated with this to try to find some solutions, and we talked about traffic already. And you know I think there's some, what it sounds like, people smarter than I in terms of traffic flow, there are some ways to try to improve the traffic flow just naturally as well as with some other means so. But just from a standpoint of trying to assist the property owners and the local businesses there to be more successful, I think it's worthwhile for us moving forward, especially with the guidance we have this evening. Mr. Knutson, who I always rely on, that it can be done in a way so it's relatively specific. I think we've got size issues. I think you know the fact that Century Boulevard is not a major through street. It's effectively, it drives up and then stops at West 78th and then is a local residential street after that, unlike a lot of other neighborhood business areas where there's actually a crossing of major through streets, and I'm not going to start talking about minor and major arterials because I'll screw that up, but the bottom line is, is when Century Boulevard reaches West 78th going north of there, that's a residential neighborhood. That's a residential street and so there are some unique features from I think, in terms of these properties, from a traffic road design and it's location that's unlike some of the other areas as I'm thinking through business neighborhood areas. That also I think gives us some comfort that maybe we need to do a little bit more here to enhance economic success from that standpoint. So those are my thoughts. I think the council seems to be generally unison in supporting the concept, and if other people have some thoughts, I don't know if they've thought of since. Otherwise would it make sense to take a motion to table with the direction to bring it back as soon as possible but not set a specific meeting date knowing that there's some work to be done between now. Is that acceptable sir? Mark Leutem: Yes sir. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Any other comments or would somebody like to make such a motion? Councilman McDonald: I'll make a motion that we table this issue that is before us and allow staff and the applicant to work together and bring us back a detailed plan that we can evaluate. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Is there any discussion or is there a second? Councilman Litsey: I'll second that. Mayor Furlong: Councilman Litsey seconds it. Any discussion on that? Very good. Thank you. I will just make the comment. Thank you everybody for your comments and input and we 41 City Council Meeting - November 10, 2008 will get more detail back so I know for those that are concerned about what's coming forward, there will be that opportunity and that will come to a future council meeting. It will stay at the council level and come back to a future council meeting. We'll bring it on unfinished business at some point so that will be available. And if anybody' s interested in being notified of that, why don't you make sure you get your name and address and mailing information to Ms. Aanenson so you can be sure be notified. Any other discussion? If not, motion's been made and seconded. Councilman McDonald moved, Councilman Litsey seconded that the City Council table the request for a minor PUD amendment to allow a drive thru and site plan review with variances for Lot 2, Block 1, Arboretum Shopping Center to allow the applicant and staff time to prepare a more detailed plan. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to O. Mayor Furlong: Without objection there's, we'll take a 5 minute recess, recess about 5 minutes subject to the call of the Chair here noticing the time. The City Council took a short recess at this point in the meeting. Mayor Furlong: Let's call the council back to order and what I'd like to do, and propose to the council is some adjustments to our agenda this evening, given the hour of the evening. What we'd like to do, we have a gentleman here to talk to us, along with our staff, for item 4(a). I think we'd like to do that tonight. We'll defer item 4(b), since that again is a presentation. Neither of those items are action items by the council, so we'll defer item 4(b) to a future meeting. Go ahead with item 5 and then following our meeting this evening, our work session items, we'll complete items B, which relate to the budget presentations, and then defer item C under our work to a future work session. So if the council is okay with that. If there are no objections. Does that make sense? It's just that it's getting a little late and some of these items aren't time pressing so I'd rather take them when we're all fresh. Is everyone okay with that? Why don't we go ahead and proceed with that. WEST -CENTRAL LOTUS LAKE IMPROVEMENT PROJECT 08-02: UPDATE COUNCIL ON FEASIBILITY STUDY. Terry Jeffery: Mayor Furlong, council members. In 2005 I think you remember we had the Triple Crown Estate pond, sometimes the Meadow Green Park ponds, there was a failure when we had back to back storms in 2005. In 2007 we went out for a proposal to do a feasibility study, to look at the larger, what we refer to as the West Central Lotus Lake Watershed. Todd Hubmer when he shows his presentation will have, you'll see that area as we're talking about. In February, upon staff's recommendation, council did approval feasibility study with WSB and Associates to look at the larger West Central Lotus Lake area and the specific issues we have in there. WSB has come back with a feasibility study which we would like to present the findings to you tonight. In essence it breaks it down. Looks at it as three separate phases over a series of years that would address the overall issues. There are a number of different, what they're referring to as options. I would think of them more as components within an overall solution to the problem, which can be done with some flexibility when they are, but again Todd Hubmer is here from WSB and Associates. I'll let him present to you the findings. We would like to look 42