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PRC 2000 09 26CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 26, 2000 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Fred Berg, Mike Howe, Jim Manders, David Moes, Jay Karlovich, and Rod Franks MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Approved as presented. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: None. MIKE GORRA, GOLF COURSE PROPOSAL. Mike Gorra: My name is Mike Gorra. I live at 1680 Arboretum. I guess for several years we've been thinking about the possibility of developing 134 point some acres into a possible golf course. It's not zoned for that but I don't know if that makes a difference. The only problem we have is, this is an old plan we did back in 1993. There's no question that an 18 hole golf course would fit on this property. The only problem is, is it going to be too tight? Is it going to be a good course? This whole plan shows that we left a little room here for houses. That's out now because there wouldn't be enough room for that because the new highway construction is going to take about 8 acres in this area here for that area here. In fact they called the other day and they want a little bit more. I don't know how much more but not too much. They're going to send a survey. So anyway, 134 minus 8 is 126 acres. Joy brought some information on the surrounding golf courses. How many acres that they've got to give us some idea what you need. Though every course is different...but we have been talking to both the Mayor and to Todd about the possibility of utilizing some of the city's park land off`the east side here, the woods, which is being used for just a trailer there now .... house in there. I don't know how many acres that is. I roughly paced it off` but I think it's maybe 700-800 feet wide by, so on Todd's letter you have 1,100 feet along the east land here. But I thought if there was a possibility that we could utilize some of this we could have a little more room and make a little nicer course and make it a little more feasible. I guess that's one of the reasons why we're here to see if there's a possibility of doing something like that. I mentioned if we get your permission to do something like that, we'd make it worthwhile for Chanhassen. Give them a little trade- ofl~ Favors for the residents of Chanhassen. Give them a favored tee time. Give them a break in the rate... Hoff`man: Questions? Lash: Yep. Anybody on the commission with questions for Mr. Gorra? Franks: In all that land that you have set aside on this plan where you'd build the houses in what looks to me brown, that would all be used for golf course? Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Mike Gorra: It would have to be. Franks: And how much additional land offthe Lake Ann Park, in that woods area, are you looking for? Mike Gorra: Well we'd like to get as much as the city would give us. The more we get the better course we can build. We've only got 126 acres to work with. We'd like to get more than that. It's important for an 18 hole golf course to have a nice club house and a driving range. It's going to be kind of tight if we don't get a little bit more acreage there. Franks: Do you have an idea about how many acres that you would need to really make the project go? Mike Gorra: Without getting an architect back in here and redoing this, I know what they're going to tell me because I've talked with them. They're going to say yeah,...but without actually getting them in here and doing it we don't know how it's going to look or how tight it's going to be. Joy has got more information on the size of the surrounding golf courses if you people want to hear what she has to say. Joy Melby: How many of you golf here? Any of you? What courses have you played in the city? Howe: Chaska. Karlovich: Hazeltine. Joy Melby: Chaska, the numbers that I got from a gentleman out there, Chaska is built on 256 acres. To give you an idea of what you're looking at to what kind of the course that you want to be...Chanhassen. Hazeltine, I was kind of shocked. I thought it would be on more acres than what it is, but I was told 186. And so here you've got a very much a championship course built on 186 acres. Some other courses that you may have played. There's the little course in Bloomington. Granted it's not a full 18. You've got two par 3's. Two extra par 3's and two less par 5's but it's built on 97 acres and that includes club house and everything. Moving up, Minnetonka Country Club. I've never had the pleasure to play that course. That's built on 120 acres. Another very wonderful course is Minnekada and that's on 160. So looking at Minnekada and looking at the acres that we're at right now, we're I think kind of close to having a nice course. For those of you who have never seen the land out there, it's ideal for building a golf course. You've got your flat open lands. You've got the rolling hills. You've got the wooded areas. You've got a number of slews. You've got the lake. You've got a creek. You've got a tree farm of how many trees? Mike Gorra: A couple thousand trees. Joy Melby: Needing to be moved soon. The acres that we're looking at from the city, they're all wooded and so if you're getting 2 or 3 holes out of that wooded acres, it'd be a wonderful track to play. Then if you look at your surrounding area golf courses, a lot of you are probably pretty aware that in Eden Prairie they are all exclusive. They're all private. Right now in Chanhassen there's Bluff`Creek. Bluff`Creek is built on 200 acres and again these are just calling out and getting an estimate from these people. Eden Prairie also has Bearpath. Chaska has the town course, Hazeltine and Dahlgren. And Dahlgren can be kind of tough to find if you don't know where it's at. I know I ended up. Karlovich: How many acres is Dahlgren? Joy Melby: That I didn't get. Some other numbers here. I kind of, that's about it that I got right now. We didn't get one from Westview, did we? They didn't know. 2 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Berg: How about Deer Run? Joy Melby: Deer Run didn't know either. The people we were talking to. But that kind of gives you an idea of what type of course you're going to want and how many acres you're going to need. Again you're looking for a good practice area. Hopefully this would support a lot of junior golf and your ladies leagues or men leagues with that and you've got the practice area also. But again it's, from the, ifI owned it this would not be the best use of making money with that land. But in my viewpoint it's the best use of that land and keep it pretty much close to the way it is and enhance it. Again you're going to need a very well trained golf architect to come and look at the land and make the best use of it. I was going to say, some other things and I can't remember what they were. Any questions? Oh, I know what it was. We've been here before. Some ofyou have heard this before. Thanks to that road, I think it's delayed a lot ofthis type of creation. Originally the road was designed to go right through the property and that would completely have eliminated any golf course option if they had elected to go through the middle of the property. And right now it still might be feasible but it would definitely be more feasible with extra acres and especially the wooded area. It'd be a nice jewel to Chanhassen. Lash: Joy, can I just get you to state your full name for the record. Joy Melby: It's Joy Melby. Lash: Okay. Anybody else have questions for Mike or Joy? Manders: Maybe for the benefit of my understanding, the way this is laid out, what is the discretion of the boundaries of this? Mike Gorra: The boundaries? Manders: Yeah. Mike Gorra: It's kind of tough to see. This is the west line here. That's where these townhouses and... houses have been built. This is the north line. Prince's property is to the north. And this is the east line with the park here. This is Riley Creek. And there might be some, a little land left in here too after this road is built. Maybe 2-3 acres is all but. This is the road's going to take up this whole southem part here. At one time we thought we wanted to put assisted living for the elderly in here. At least do something that has kind of business like but, with the road that's... Manders: And you live in? Mike Gorra: Right here. Manders: And the plan is to stay there then? Mike Gorra: Yeah. Karlovich: One of the things, just a comment I wanted to make is, I'm an avid golfer and I've played just about every course at least that she listed off and Minnetonka Country Club, the one that you said was about 120 acres, that is too small. They have some kind of goofy holes. They have five par 4's in a row. And I think you're accurate on needing more property to do a full golf course here. I think you know the acreage that you need in order to get a full 18 hole golf course that an avid golfer wants to play that's Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 going to be 6,500 yards or maybe even 6,800 yards, you need that much acreage. Otherwise you start to get goofy holes or not a full 72 par golf course. Mike Gorra: We've got some wetlands we could utilize here a little better than this architect did. Wetlands back here to the north. And then this part of the lake here that isn't lake anymore. It's a wetland. So we could, you get somebody in here that really knows what they're doing, I think they could come up with something pretty nice. Karlovich: Yeah, even Bluff Creek is only a par 70 and you know for those of us who want our four par 5 's because we can make birdies there, and then you don't have them. You have the extra par 3 's, you know I think Bluff`Creek could be reworked and made into a nicer full golf course but it's even a little bit tight but. I don't want to say too much badly about Minnetonka Country Club but it's, the golf course itself is not the greatest track. Howe: One comment. Maybe a stupid one. The guy who owns Swings, John. What's his name? Lash: Pryzmus. Howe: His land is going to be decimated by that road, right? It's going to cut right in half of that? Is it unfeasible to say, just as a thought, thinking out loud almost. Is it too long to have a cart path from the edge of your property to his land if you could put some holes there? Because that's going to be useless. If they put a road through the middle of that, is it not? Mike Gorra: It probably would...be stretching it. Howe: That's a good half mile probably. Lash: But it could be the practice facility maybe. Howe: Just a thought. That's going to, you can't put houses on it I would think. Mike Gorra: Well I can't use it for a practice facility...open field. Lash: ... Hoffman: I think the State's going to take the whole property and then the road goes right through the middle. You can see the stakes right in the middle of the driving range. Karlovich: You've got to have the practice facility next to the club house. I mean just at least in my opinion. Mike Gorra: Well and if we do this, we want to do it right. We don't want to go halfway and because there's a lot of competition and the land is expensive use for a golf course. We're not going to do it unless we feel real comfortable that it's going to be a success. Berg: Are you committed to an 18 hole course versus something like the Chaska Par 30? Mike Gorra: I kind of think so. Anything less than that, she doesn't think is worthwhile. 4 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Joy Melby: Yeah, given the cost of the land and kind of an executive course. Or a 9 hole... And I guess your... Mike Gorra: We've had the rounds with different options and if we're going to do it we'd like a full 18. A full, a real golf course. Full 18. Practice facilities. Nice club house. Do it right or can't do it. Berg: I guess I disagree a little bit with Jay on that, considering that 90% of the golfers in this country don't break 100 consistently, I'm not sure how many of them are going to be insistent that they have their full compliment of par 5's. I'm inclined to think that the basic golfer that you're going to be attracting is going to come if it's a little tight or not. I'm not qualified to say if 126 acres is too tight to build a course that would be safe for example. So you've got distance between greens and tees for example. Things like that. Mike Gorra: Well you can see on this one here that, like number 4 and number 13, there's only 100 feet between there. Berg: Yeah. I've dodged enough balls over at the courses in St. Paul to know that that's got to be a factor and like I said, I'll take the word of the diagram at this point. I think I know the answer to this question too but I'm obligated to ask it. Have you had any dialogue with Prince about getting some of his property for your course? Mike Gorra: How do you do that? I've been asked that before and I don't know why he would bother with something like that. Berg: That's what I anticipated as an answer. Hoffman: Talk to his attomey. Mike Gorra: I guess everything's a possibility but I've been a developer for a long time and I think it'd be real...to try to deal with Prince. I could spend years and not get anyplace. And if he did, he'd want too high a price. The only reason I can do this is because I bought it in 1974. 26 years ago. IfI bought this 15 years ago I wouldn't be doing it. But he's going to want...even ifI buy 10-15 acres with him. It'd just kind of throw a wrench into the whole deal at Chanhassen land prices today. It's an option but it's really not that great of an option. Karlovich: I don't know if the commission shares my views but I think you know, what everyone looks at first of all is that we're giving up some woods and we're giving up some park property but I think you need to step back and take a bigger picture and look that you would have given up some park property but then you have a golf course there. If not, what are we going to have there, single family? Is that what it's guided? What's it guided, multi-family? So you can have Lake Ann Park and multi-family and zillions of units in there and they'll probably make an awful lot more money on that multi-family unit. I think as a responsible official for the city we should at least support the proposal but that's my personal opinion. Mike Gorra: They can design this so... Karlovich: ...see in a golf course either, but you know we could leave some trees in there to leave a buffer zone but I would at least like to drive down Highway 5 and see that instead of seeing, I don't know how many units would go in there? 600 units or something. There's the 80 acres proposed, 300 or 400 down there. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Franks: Todd how much land on the park use would be available? Hoffman: Somewhere between and 20 and 30 acres. Franks: Is that the entirety of that woods there or is that? Hoffman: The entirety of that woods is probably closer to 40 acres but there's, you want some buffer available. Franks: Right. Lash: So it would be most of that wooded section? Franks: About half of it. Hoffman: Well it depends on what you use. Lash: Well and we haven't heard that I guess. Franks: It's difficult when you know we can see the parcel that you're looking at but we don't really know exactly what it is that you're interested in. We know the idea you're interested in but it would be the specifics of how much and I'm not interested necessarily in giving anything away. You know Prince certainly is going to understand some of the value of his land and to the taxpayers of this city, the value of the parkland is the same. So you talk about some favorable tee times or you know, green fees for, in deference for the city residents but I'd want to make sure that the value that we get out of land going into this project is equal to the value of the land. Mike Gorra: Well, you wouldn't be giving up the land. The City would retain ownership of the land. It would just be, we'd just have kind of like a lease on it as long as we have a golf course there. Franks: Alright. So you're not looking to own the land? Mike Gorra: No. We're not looking to own the land. We're just looking to use it as a golf course, and we wouldn't change it that much either. Karlovich: I would think as a golf course designer you might want to even cut a couple holes in there and use those trees you know for a tree lined, you know holes or whatever. Mike Gorra: I've got a catch 22 deal here. You're asking how much land we want and the designer's going to ask how much land he's got to work with. Franks: That's why I wanted to know, how much land is there to work with and out of that land, how much of it are you going to want? So I wanted you to hear that Todd is suggesting there's 20 or 30 acres that's available to work with. Mike Gorra: Well what would you people be comfortable with us using, if it is a possibility because I'd have to give the designer some idea on what to work with. Because these guys aren't just going to come out and draw up preliminary plans and go back and redo it again every time, they want $20,000 for their plan. And...so we have to kind of know what we're doing first. Or get some idea of what the city would feel comfortable with leasing us. 6 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Hoffman: If we look at this area, the creek here cuts really and you saw from the creek and then Mr. Gorra's home up here, it's going to limit how far you can sunk into this area of the woods so we're talking about a rectangle right in there that would be available I think. Could be available to use. Berg: About how many acres would you guesstimate that is? Hoff`man: 20 and 30. 30 on the outside. That would, Lake Ann Park is 100 acres in total. It's not as large as Mr. Gorra's property. And the woods is about a third of that. Karlovich: I mean that, you know what he's even saying now and he's not even asking for fee ownership. He's just asking for a long term lease. That sounds even better that, I mean it reduces our risk and exposure that we're giving something away. So after you know, after the golf course is you know used for life or whatever, we would still have the property. There'd be some less trees on it but at least for that period of time that that area of the city would be beautiful and green instead of rooftops and driveways. Joy Melby: Again it's, having a golf course with, remember the last meeting a couple years ago, Chanhassen had a chance to buy Bluff Creek for just a really, it was such a low price and then a couple years later it wasn't for sale and it just soared. But if the city were to buy like a Bluff`Creek and redo it, now you're talking tax money going into something where here you've got something that I... was donated to the city and now is, it's just going to be leased to somebody. The trade off`is almost like you know the city, when you're comparing it to like Chaska's town course where it was built with city money and they're getting preferred tee times and reduced.., you've got somebody else that paid that much down and just borrowed the land for a little bit. Berg: The obvious difference being of course that if you think the city bought Bluff`Creek it would be a revenue producer for the city. That's a significant. Joy Melby: Maybe. Maybe not. Berg: It's a significant difference. Well, you're not going to build it to lose money either. I'm assuming you think you're going to make money on this and I would assume that if the city could ever get to the point where they felt they could buy Bluff`Creek, they'd be doing it because they were going to make money. Traditionally courses, well run courses do make money so that's a pretty significant difference between the two also. Karlovich: I think the reality of Bluff Creek though is once 212 goes through and MUSA extension goes through there, it appears as though, at least the present owners aren't even building a club house or putting much money in there. Into that course. I fear that that course will be bulldozed down and developed into something other than a golf course in the future. And I think that's just for discussion purposes kind of a reality of what might happen with Bluff Creek. Mike Gorra: ...BluffCreek, not only are you buying a golf course. You'd be buying land. And the land can be very expensive. Berg: Oh no question. No question. Mike Gorra: So, the same.., ifI hadn't bought this 25 years ago I wouldn't be here right now. A developer that wants to build a golf course goes out and buys the land for $3,000-$4,000 an acre. Maybe 5. Not much more than that if they want to make money, and you know what the land out here in 7 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Chanhassen has been selling for lately. Or they buy a piece of property and they build houses around it...but we can't do that here because we don't have enough. This is kind of a unique situation. From the standpoint of somebody driving down the highway and looking at kind of like a park. It's going to add to the park. It's going to be just as good looking. A lot better than the park. It's not going to have...it's going to look pretty good. We'll leave it almost like it is. We wouldn't change much of the land. That's the whole idea is to leave the land for most the way it is now. Lash: What kind of impact do you think it would have on the lake? Mike Gorra: What do you mean impact? Lash: Runofl~ Fertilizer. Mike Gorra: Probably have a lot less than if it was developed in the residence for people. You know, probably none because this lake is protected by this wetland here which shelters all the runoff here and then it's got this wetland here. I don't think it affects the lake at all. If this was a housing development, yeah. The lake would be impacted because of the number of people living here, but a golf course. I don't think it, I don't think there'd be any impact. Karlovich: Can't they design the golf courses these days with you know ponds. Holding ponds and try to filter out some of the things at least before they even get. Mike Gorra: ...most of the runoffruns into the, this is the east fork of the Bluff Creek. Most of the runoff runs this way. Very little goes into the lake. It's high up here and it runs down to here and then it runs into Bluff Creek here so most the runoff that you're running the opposite direction of the lake. Hoffman: Through the permitting process, runoff would be regulated. As a part of the construction of a golf course. Lash: So Todd, just for my bearings, because I do walk the trails through the woods. Where, how far in would we be coming? Would it come all the way to where that walking trail is or would it go beyond that? Or how far east would it be coming? Hoffman: All negotiable. How far, we need to take a look at that. Do you want to just say 100 feet? 200 feet from the edge of the woods. Do you want to see it, barely see it? Do you not want to see it at all? It could be all sorts of difference scenarios for that. Howe: Can we soon schedule, I'd like to go back in there. You know I've been up on the other side. Looked through there. I don't recall much about that area we're talking about. Is there a way we could get in there and look at. This is an intriguing idea. We've talked about this a long time and there are a lot of details I think need to be worked out as far as what the residents would gain. But now you're saying that the land isn't really being given up. I think we should look into this. I would personally get on it and just look around and see how close it is to the park itself. If that's possible. Karlovich: Is there other ways to work like trails also maybe around the golf course property or something? You know and get some at least additional park benefit from that. That could probably work with the design. And I think he just needs a clear indication...and obviously the more profitable building something else. The other thing is, what I don't have a good feeling from is seeing from the City Council if they want a golf course or they want additional tax base too. I mean that's a, there's maybe units there that aren't going to go in. 8 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Franks: Something that I wanted to ask too is about the, is there any, I can't remember if there's plan for extension of the trail through this property as it develops around Lake Ann. Hoffman: The comprehensive plan identifies a trail circling Lake Ann. Franks: I guess that'd be one thing that I'd also be interested in too is if, you know as something like this gets negotiated and we start looking at a plan, is there any way to work that segment into this property as the golf course is developed as a part of that development? Mike Gorra: I don't know if you could have a trail through a golf course. Joy Melby: It may be certain areas of the golf course you could but on many, if you extend it around that point around the lake, you're having golf course and trail, I mean it wouldn't be safe for anybody on the trail. You've got to keep that in mind too. You've got people walking the trail on the golf course too. You know that ends up being an insurance...that a lot of golf courses typically will not let you go out on a course unless you pay a greens fee through their insurance and you get hit. And so depending on, again it's a room issue. A states issue on how much land are you going to have. It's already tight and you've got some trail and you've got to give that trail clearance, but close to that lake area I don't know if it'd really be a trail on the very south west point. But maybe some of the other areas would pick up. Mike Gorra: ...hill along side this frontage road here. The trail here...trail over on this side that would go down Riley Creek but the fact that my home is there too. I mean I don't know how many people would want a home and the public walking through their back yard. A golf course is different. There's a reason for it. Franks: We have a lot of homes in the city where people might tell you that they have a trail through their back yard. Mike Gorra: Yeah, but they bought the land with the trail there. They didn't have the trail put in. Franks: Well I guess what I was just putting out there, you're looking to gain something. There might be certain things that we would be looking to gain also and to find that point where everybody's getting most of what they're looking for. Mike Gorra: IfI was to tell you right now that I don't think a trail would work for two reasons. A trail through the golf course just isn't, I mean you might as well get it all out right now so nobody spins their wheels. I don't want a public trail going through my back yard. I don't want it. Karlovich: But what about a trail along the frontage road and then the property line between the multi- family that's existing and the, kind of the what do you call it? Hoffman: Take a different route Mike through the property. Karlovich: I'm talking about maybe a trail along the west property line and then maybe with a future extension through you know Prince's property to the north or something. Hoffman: Yeah, the only way we can get a trail is if you subdivide or in this case if we're making trades, then we have it as a trade. If Prince never subdivides the trail won't be completed but if this land sells off and it's in the subdivision, not only does the comprehensive plan talk about a trail through Prince's land. 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 It talks about the city gaining ownership of all the land between that wetland and the lake as a part of this development. So again those are all future speculative issues. There's another issue here that complicates factors. Lake Ann was purchased in 1969 using federal dollars. Land Water Conservation dollars. And the federal government's not just going to allow us to either sell and/or lease property to a private venture. There's a process...six step process that the city has to go through. Identical to the process we entered into to allow the State to put a road through a portion of Lake Ann Park. To make that happen we acquired and purchased the Chanhassen Recreation Center property as a replacement for the land where the road is. I'm almost certain that if we would have liked to have used 20 acres of Lake Ann for a golf course, the city would have to go out and purchase another 20 acres somewhere else to replace that property as a part of that federal granting process. So we are tied by how that property was purchased in the first place. Karlovich: Does that account for a lease as opposed to just a sale of the actual property? Hoffman: Again, I'm not completely certain but I'm pretty confident that...go from a lease to a private venture they're going to want replacement. Lash: How about the Fox property? Berg: I was going to say, does it have to be post deal? Hoffman: Yes, exactly. He has to enter into it and then go ahead and replace it. Lash: So the Fox property wouldn't? Hoffman: No. Berg: This is your baby. Does 20 acres make that much difference? Mike Gorra: Oh yeah. It would make a lot of difl'erence. Could probably get 3 holes in there. Joy Melby: It would give it a lot...very wooded area. You have 3 holes cut out of the woods. And to add to the openness of the rest of the golf course for the whole wooded area, it would give us a wonderful variety. Karlovich: I mean in the golf community the reputation that a course has is, everyone plays it and then criticizes it and gets a reputation as to how good of a track it is. How well is it laid out? Is it challenging? Does it have any gimmicky, goofy holes and you get gimmicky, goofy holes when you don't have enough room to build the holes. And then you come up with par 3's that are 100 yards or as opposed to a par 3 should be 150 at a minimum to about 200 yards. And you shouldn't have par 5's that are you know anywhere less than like 475 these days. You do need enough room to build a quality golf course. Manders: Todd a question. In terms of past plans, as far as Lake Ann's concem. I know we're putting in that new site. The building with the different amenities and all that. Are there other planned, unplanned potential uses for Lake Ann property that maybe we're not thinking of right now that have been indicated in the past commissions or? Hoffman: As far as this particular set of woods or the whole park? Manders: Well that area. The woods area. 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Hoffman: Yeah. The woods area has always been identified as a preservation. It's almost a hidden secret just waiting to be acknowledged by the community at some point when the city is fully developed. It's really a hidden asset that other than the DNR, the DNR has classified it as you know, it's one of the largest free standing set of timber in the city. Other than the Fox property, Lake Ann runs a close second or third. And so if you take a look at a DNR assessment from the forester, he's going to jump up and scream bloody murder if you say you're going to cut it up for a golf course. So there's different views of what benefit this property has. It's never been talked about. Well if there was, back in probably the early 80's, the softball people wanted to tear it down and put softball fields in there because we were in such dire need of softball fields. Instead of doing that, obviously we bought farmland on the other side of the existing ballfields and much better solution to add additional ballfields to Lake Ann Park. There's this impromptu or informal trail that winds through there that some people have discovered. They walk it or they cross country ski it but that's the extent of it. That's just one of those things. It's been there for 30 years and not a lot of people have discovered it yet. Karlovich: Is there even a possibility of exploring that, you know the property would be given over and then after some extremely long period of time that the city would even have an option to buy out the golf course. Some 50-60 years from now or something, or 20-30 or something like that and it's just a, I think we should not hastily think about just protecting that woods. This is a big decision to shape the whole look and future of our city right here. Otherwise, you know ifI was a developer and I was shunned away, I'd just take my property, sell it and build it out and we're going to have something there that I think is less desirable but, I don't know. Is that any type of option or whatever in which the city could even get an opportunity to sell some bonds down the road or something? Mike Gorra: No, I don't think so. See we tried it...get trails in here and I wanted to put some houses in here and you want future right, it's not going to work. That's what I have taken my property and just a golf course. No homes. No assisted living. Nothing but a golf course and then it might work. Now if you guys are interested, you go along with this, if you're going to try to attach a trail system through here and future ownership, it's not going to work because we're trying to do too much with too little. And I guess I'm just trying to be honest with you...but that's my idea. I don't want you guys to spend a lot of time on this and I don't want to spend a lot of time on this unless we're, it's sort of a meeting of the minds here. Berg: As long as we're exploring avenues here, what about the possibility of helping with the cost of developing and sharing the potential profits of that part of the course which belongs to the city? Mike Gorra: Well now that might be a possibility. I don't know what Joy thinks about that. Joy Melby: I don't know, that would be an option. You know a number of years ago we could build a decent course for, kind of like a million and a half, depending on what your land costs were. I mean that's a million and a half on top of your land. And nowadays with the courses that you're seeing built, you know that number is probably very, very low. You know so, sure. If you want to share... Berg: Well 3 holes. 3 holes was what I'm hearing. Joy Melby: But I was going to go back to Jay's proposal. You know 30 years from now, Mike won't be here. Maybe. His son might be and his son may entertain selling the property and you know, you never really should say never and who knows what the values will be then and I think right now it'd be a very big purchase for the city given the land value of that land right now. It'd be an expensive golf course for the city to buy. Manders: So it's not going to get any cheaper than either. 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Joy Melby: Yeah, but who knows what happens. Lash: Who knows what's going to happen to the future of golf. Joy Melby: Yeah exactly. Franks: I'm assuming that when you talk about a lease there's not any monetary compensation for holding that lease. Mike Gorra: Well no, we thought the compensation would be either the residents to golf...residents of Chanhassen... and lower fees. Franks: Yeah. And I think that sounds good. I'm not a golfer. I am totally in favor of another golf course in this town. In fact I think everybody on this commission knows that I've opened my mouth a lot on the idea of having a golf course but, all the citizens of Chanhassen own Lake Ann, but not all of them are going to golf. And so if only the golfers are getting a benefit from giving up their land then, that's a little bit of the responsibility that I'm struggling with there so. You know it's through your development and I know you don't like the idea of a trail but I'm just going to use it as an example. The trail works into the property. See now it's a benefit that all the residents then maintain and then maybe the makes the trade worthwhile for everybody. Not just the people who are going to golf. Joy Melby: The flip side of, maybe somebody doesn't play baseball or softball. You know you already have land for softball and baseball so the flip side could be on that. That's... We now giving another area of your population that doesn't have those interests that are there an interest in something else. Franks: Right but then the city doesn't own that. It's a private venture that you're making a profit on it. When we set up our baseball teams, we're not making profit on that and it's not designed to turn a profit. Howe: I think the important feature for non golfers, and it may be hard to sell this to non golfers is, you can have a nice piece of open space that maybe you can enjoy to cross country ski from November to February or March, but it's not going to be developed. It's still going to be open space and that's. Lash: I guess that's what I'm wanting to find out from you Mike is, if this doesn't, if for some reason this doesn't work out for you, what is your Plan B? Are you going to try and make a golf course work on your 126 acres? Mike Gorra: Well no. Like I said before, before we ever did anything like that, we'd have to be comfortable that it's going to be a success and I don't think we can do it on 126 to make it the kind of course that Jay might like to play. Lash: Well we know Jay's a little... Mike Gorra: But he's a difficult golfer. You know enjoy...like the holes and the type of course. The yardage. I mean I'm not a big golfer but I've been around them enough to know that if you want to be a success you have to have a nice course. Lash: So what would your Plan B be? 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Mike Gorra: Well I'm a developer and when I bought this land in '74 1 had, we were building apartment buildings. This land is zoned for apartments. It very possibly could be apartments and townhomes. Joy Melby: Or maybe a senior village. Mike Gorra: Or senior assisted living facility might be... Joy Melby: Apartment condos. Mike Gorra: It could be anything really but I don't like, ifI wasn't a golfer and I lived in Chanhassen, I just have to drive down Highway 5 and look at a piece of property that didn't have a bunch of houses on it. I've always liked to see open land. I'm sure a lot of people are the same way. Lash: Okay I still don't really feel like I got a straight answer. Do you have a Plan B? Or is this as far as you are. You know you want to look at the golf course. Mike Gorra: Being a developer I always, I don't have it written down to know what I want because I've lived with this. As far as I'm concemed, I'd like to leave it just the way it is for the next 15-20 years. But I know that's not realistic because of the road and there's other pressures on this property and it's not realistic to think it's going to stay like that for another 15 years so I would, this is my number one choice is a golf course. Number two would be some kind of a residential development. Lash: Okay, so if you're living there though. Mike Gorra: Well I'd protect my home. I wouldn't build right up to my house. I'd keep acres, certain acreage around the house. I just like the house. I can still do that. Or I could just take my profit and move out in the country someplace else. Lash: So would you be foreseeing that you'd be putting in condo's? Townhouses? Apartments? Single family? Mike Gorra: Well I'd go with the guideline, what the property's guided. It's guided high density and medium density. Lash: All of it? Mike Gorra: Most of it. I would stick with that. I might change it a little bit towards the lake and put single family around the lake rather than go with a real high density around the lake. I don't think that's a good idea. Put single family up on the north part. And it could be single family in the woods here by my house. Probably just like the architect drew a few years ago. Manders: How much land would you anticipate not developing where your house is? Mike Gorra: Probably just like it shows here. Manders: How much is that? Mike Gorra: Oh, it's about 3 acres. 3-4 acres. Close to this rock right down here on the lake, it's too low to build on anyway but I'd probably leave it just the way it is. 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Franks: I think you mentioned, and I'm assuming that building a golf course would require a zoning change for that property? Mike Gorra: Well Nancy would probably know better than I would. In my years of developing, down zoning a piece of property has never been a problem. Franks: Does the underlying zoning change? Would it still be, if you chose not to have it as a golf course, you put $2 million into it but the land is obviously worth much more 5 years from now. You decide well we're going to go ahead and build a high density housing anyway. Mike Gorra: Well that's an option a landowner always has. Would we keep that option open if the golf course didn't succeed? We'd have to do something with it. Franks: And in the meantime though the golf course doesn't succeed and we've given up 20 acres of woods. Lash: No, but the woods are gone. The trees are gone. Mike Gorra: Some trees would be gone but we should walk through the woods. Or ask anybody that's familiar with woods, if you take out a few trees it's better for the other trees. There's a lot of scrub trees in that woods. And some people like all the trees but if it's a little clearing, even wildlife likes a little clearing. Get sun light in there. A lot of trees thrive, but I'm not here to talk you into anything. Either you like it or you don't. It's not my property. I don't want to own it. It's the city's property. You guys do what you want but we're just... Joy Melby: And there's still the possibility that, even to save the land that...a lease agreement, it still might not be enough land to make a decent golf course so it might not even be an option. Karlovich: I just think one of the things we need to step back and not even so much of our personal likes or dislikes of whether we like golf courses or we like the park the way it is but think about if you ask the general citizen of Chanhassen, you know do you want the city to lease part of the woods and part of the woods will get cut down and a golf course would be built on that big open land. Or would you rather just leave the woods the way it is and have high density and medium density go up there probably in the relative near future. I think if we step back from ourselves and our own personal dislikes, we're here representing the masses of the city. What would the city say? Moes: Well that's a good question because what's running through my mind is, what would I be getting for that leased land? IfI heard it right, is it reduced fees for the citizens? I mean when I heard lease for some reason I was thinking gee, does that mean we have to do a land study then to determine what an appropriate dollar amount per month for the leased acreage would be. And what I'm hearing is it's the compensation for the land would be reduced fees. Joy Melby: Chaska town course, their green fees for somebody not from Chaska is $44.00 weekday and $49.00 for the weekend. For a Chaska resident it's $22.00 for the weekday and $27.00 for the weekend. The gentleman that I talked to, he said it was rumored that 30% of the residents have been using that golf course. Karlovich: I mean one of the things that I even did was I joined the Chaska Community Center and that way I was able to at least get a resident rate over at the Chaska Town Course and I did that for a year but you know for the difference in the rates there are quite a bit different and you know there's a pain 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 threshold for those, at least have their spouses if you go spend your $30.00 for golf, it's a lot different than spending $50.00 or $60.00. Berg: I'm not sure what you're looking for from us tonight. I'm wrestling with the same things the other commissioners are. I am an avid golfer. I'm not an avidly good golfer like Jay so my taste in golf courses run considerably less sophisticated. I'm wrestling with the fact that maybe 30% of our residents are going to benefit from this lease in terms of lower rates and I'm wrestling with that versus the trade off for the rest of the city. I would very much like to see this work. It might not have sounded like it much tonight but I would very much like to see this work. But what we represent, we're a commission representing the entire city and we've got to make some, have some conversation about this before. Mike Gorra: Well keep in mind too that if you donate 20-30 acres to 130 acres. That's just what I'm doing. Donating. Because any money we make on the golf course is a pittance to what it would be... Berg: True. Manders: I have a comment. It's more along the lines of time since I've been on the commission and some of the interests for that area and there's two things that I'm interested in. One is somehow we have to manage some type of trail around Lake Ann. In my mind it's a non-negotiable item. We need a trail around there somehow. And the second item that we've talked about as a commission is that looking down the road, right now the park is basically surviving on new development and the revenues generated from that but at some point there's going to be no new development and where are the revenues going to come from to manage our park system. So we're shuffling around ideas. What kind of revenue generating source can we obtain or look forward to down the road and a golf course has always come up as an option. And Fred's comment about how could we participate in the revenues of this, is an attractive idea to me. The same thing that Jay is getting at too kind of in saying how could we participate. If we get a break in terms of fees, although I golf and I wouldn't mind that, I would prefer the revenues generated from the course. Some prorated percentage, whatever it is. 30% or whatever it is. Mike Gorra: Like we said, that's a possibility of sharing expenses. You share in the revenue. Manders: I mean the expense is the property itsel£ Mike Gorra: Well the cost of building the course too. If you wanted to share the revenues, then it's got to be prorated out over...wipe out the benefits to the. Manders: I'm just saying, my two interests are, those are the two interests that I've got here is the trail system somehow and some type of revenue option. How that gets managed and negotiated, I'm not discussing that but that's where I'm coming from. Mike Gorra: Well, the trail comes up a lot. I've walked and jogged around Lake Ann for 25 years... Manders: And I'm not saying that it'd have to be next to the lake or where it has to be. I'm just saying somehow we have to figure out. Mike Gorra: Well that, you know maybe there is a way to figure out but it might be kind of tough to have a trail system through a golf course. I've never seen one. Manders: Does it have to be through it? Can it be around it? 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Mike Gorra: Well then you're taking away land from the course and we're kind of, again it's a give and take factor. You might not be able to... Manders: Well again, I don't have the details. I'm just suggesting that as a very important item. It's kind of, what I look at is kind of the Minneapolis Lakes area and how the chain of lakes trail, how much use that gets. Now certainly Lake Ann isn't anywhere close to that but that's a vision that I have is some type of trail in the center of the city on a lake and a piece of property, you're going to get a lot of use when this is developed out here. Mike Gorra: Well my idea, I've lived out here for quite a while and I've owned this property and if you've ever been down there you'll noticed I've never put a dock in there. Never put a trail in there. I never built anything down there because I like things left the way Mother Nature built them. That's why I'm here today to put a golf course in here because I want to leave it the way it is and if we're going to put trails down there and disrupt the wildlife and have a...like Lake Ann Park, it's not going to work. I want it left just the way it is. A golf course can be fit into there and it would still look wild and untouched and if people can't enjoy it that way, then it's too bad. Berg: I'm not hearing anybody on the commission taking a position in here saying this is the way it's got to be set in stone. I'm hearing an effort to let's see if there can't be something that can be worked out that's amenable to both parties. Mike Gorra: Well I've been living with this for a long time thinking about it and I'm just letting you know what my thoughts are because like I say, I don't want to spin anybody's wheels here. There are certain things that I'll do and there are certain things that I can't do. And depending on where the trail goes, if you give me some land on the east side and take away some lane on the west side for a trail, what good is it? What are we doing here? We're just, then I want to put assisted living back in there. Squeeze that in there someplace too and make some revenue. There's no end of what we could talk about doing in this property here. Franks: Well earlier you started out saying that you need to really have a golf course architect take a look at it and I think what we're saying is well, we're not golf architects either. You've been living with this and we're considering it now, just for the last couple of hours so you know our leaming curve needs to take a little time to catch up to your's. But these are some of the ideas that we have that may be beg some consideration or maybe beg a professional to take a look at, does it really fit? Maybe you'd be surprised. Maybe we'd be told it can't ever happen. Those are things we don't know. You might know them but we don't. I'm looking at this and it's easier in a sense maybe for you because if the golf course doesn't work, you still probably have more value in the land than you put into making the golf course and it always can be redeveloped for something else and we're still, you know can be out in a sense or even out some trees but we're still out something whereas your position, although you're saying... Joy Melby: ...probably cost $3 million. Franks: Well the land itself is probably worth over $3 million right now. 3, almost close to $4 million probably. $30,000 an acre. Mike Gorra: ... developer try to butter me up and telling me everything...I've thought about this long enough and Joy and I have talked about it and studied it and got things from other golf courses. Talked to...and I kind of have a pretty good idea of what I'd like to see and I'm biased in that I live here too. And I'm biased because I like the land the way it is. Like I said, I'd like to leave it like this... 16 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Franks: And I'd like to move next door. Karlovich: I mean just as a guesstimate, say for example a bunch of the trees are cut down. I mean how much would it cost to just replant it at the end of the lease? Mike Gorra: You're not talking a lot of money there. You might not even want to. You might like it open. Open meadow in there. Karlovich: But I mean you know, even $50,000 worth of trees or $20,000 or $30,000 worth of trees will go a long ways. Joy Melby: We'd probably be moving trees out of the other area so you probably... Hoffman: Reforesting, the value of Lake Ann woods is the fact that it's been there since the start of time and that's the value of the Lake Ann woods. Use that I think as a basis. From what I can tell, I think the commission needs to have a work session to talk about this idea. It's a pretty big concept for the commission. The city does have a responsibility to discuss the merits of a trail. It's on our comprehensive plan. I've known for many years that Mike does not want a trail on that property. But again it's a part of our city's comprehensive plan to see if that can happen. Without cooperation in this plan, and if he... If Mr. Gorra would subdivide the property in the future, the city has the ability to acquire that land through dedication to make the trail happen against his wishes if that would be the city's choice at that time. Ironically, or interestingly I think more than ironically, this is the first parkland ever developed with the city of Chanhassen... Look back to 1970 1 believe. This was a park map for Lake Ann Park in this vicinity. You can see it includes a golf course, a little bit farther west to Mr. Gorra's property and an activities area. Archery, arts and craft and either picnicking, park center play area for picnicking, conservation preserve which is the dedicated here which is now...talked about in this area. And then as you come along here on this end, I think the one you have there is about the closest to what actually happened. So when the city got down to reality, this is what happened is essentially the piece of property that we have today being purchased...this land. I would assume the City Council back then said, hey. You'd better down size that thing and so then we went to this one and then went down to this one, and that's pretty close to what we have today. This is by Brown and Associates back in 1970, some 30 years ago. Lash: And now we have the section to the east where the ballfields are, right? Hoffman: Yes. There's one more section here and then... It's an interesting history. Lash: I think I'd agree with Todd that we probably need to spend more time in discussing this. Weighing the pros and cons. This is new for us to think about and I think it's a new concept as far as the city giving up parkland. Generallywe'reinthebusinessofgainingparkland. Soyouknowwhatkindofatimeline are you on? Mike Gorra: ...very tight time line... I guess what we'd like to, if it is possible to do this, we'd like to know how much land the city would be willing to give us and under what conditions. Lash: And I think Mike, was it you who said you'd like to go out. Howe: I want to see it. 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Lash: You know and just, I happen to be somebody who does walk that trail consistently and I really weighed this heavily tonight because I really do appreciate the woods and I walk it all the time. But I live on the other side of the lake too and I've always thought I would hate to look across the lake and see that just chucked full of houses. That's always been my biggest fear. So you kind of know where I'm coming from. You know I would hate to see trees cut down. I hate to give up parkland. On the other hand, looking across the lake at you know 600 townhomes smashed in there is even less palatable to me. So I think you've got a commission who probably is interested in kicking this around a little bit more. But I think we really need to weigh all the pluses and minuses to all the people in town. Karlovich: Do we need to do it or do we, would it be worthwhile to direct staff`to give us some different options? Show us some different plans for you know, doing 20 acres. 30 acres. Lash: If we went and looked at it, we'd actually be able to start looking at what kind of an impact are we talking about. We could see for ourselves and after that I think we could give Todd some pretty good feedback on, and you know you've got a lot of good minds so we can come up with a lot of ideas. Not that Todd wouldn't have a lot of good ideas but there's 7 of us. Karlovich: Well if the tree destruction, what I envisioned was kept down to a minimum and you cut in a hole there, here and there, even afterwards, after the lease is over with then you would have an abandoned golf hole surrounded by trees that still wouldn't even be a bad park area. Put some benches in there and you know. Lash: That's long tenn. You know maybe someday it would come back to us. Hoffman: I'd hope it be golf course forever. Lash: Yeah right. So I want to see what the short term impact. How is that going to affect the woods and people wanting to walk through the woods and impact on the. Hoff`man: If you walk it next week, we can have diagrams available showing you exactly what we would... Howe: Let's do that. Moes: That would be helpful. Joy Melby: ...Do you even have.., federal grants. Berg: That's one of the issues that we have to take a look at. Hoffman: You always have the option of going through the process to take it offofthe LAWCON grant roll if you will and if that was required, the city can be on the hook for, if you have to buy 20 acres somewhere else to replace the same.., financially involved... Karlovich: Can't we get credit for the property we just bought? Lash: No. I asked that already. Hoff`man: You have to start the process. If you apply and get, they accept you, then the clock starts on when you purchase the property. We could say we've replaced this thing 20 times in our park system but 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 for LAWCON it doesn't work. The one hope you have is the lease, but still what the LAWCON money says is this land was bought for public recreation by the public and leasing it to a private golf course, I can't see how that would work. Lash: How about if we, if part of the agreement was then we share in the profits? No? No? Hoffman: It's strictly land based. What the LAWCON, what the federal government was, what they were involved in is getting public land to the public. They're not going to get involved in complicated golf course issues. Franks: So if you wanted to buy 20 acres on another, like the Fox property. Add another 20 acres onto that, that might be something we'd consider. Mike Gorra: That's the first thing you should look at and find out if you can do it before you do anything else. Lash: Because that could be a total deal. Let's start there. Mike Gorra: Yeah. Hoffman: Yeah, it's a difficult issue. There are certain, Lake Ann was acquired in about 7 different parcels. Some parcels were LAWCON. Others were not. I firmly believe that this one was but I'll have to double check that. Joy Melby: It's a wonderful time to take a walk there. And while you're walking please count how many garbage cans you see on it. Why are there so many garbage cans there? I just have to ask. Hoffman: The beach creates so much garbage. Joy Melby: They're not always ever full... Karlovich: And we're always buying more garbage cans too. Joy Melby: You could hire somebody to man those garbage cans. Keep them empty instead of having them smell. Moes: Maybe that could be part of the agreement for the golf course. Hoffman: I agree. Just so you know, my opinion of our blue garbage cans is that they are garbage themselves and so we are working to change the appearance of our garbage cans. Joy Melby: ... Mike Gorra: While you're walking your woods, you can walk through my property. You can walk up around there. Look at what the view would be and what it would feel like as a golf course. And then when you're walking over to the west there, look at what it would be as a development. Hoffman: You can see that pretty easily now. Mike Gorra: Too easily when they took those trees down. 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Manders: What I was getting at earlier, asking you how much land was at your house site. So is it your long term intention to live there forever and ever and ever and that that couldn't be developed as part of the course as well? Mike Gorra: Who knows. Manders: But I mean, how much have you even considered that option? Mike Gorra: Well, I like it there and...move but who knows what's going to happen in the future. Things change and I don't know what you'd use the house for. Who knows. It's not that big a deal really. It's just a house and I could stay there forever. It could be not. Manders: But I mean if you were going to develop it as a course, then you would have to make that decision now instead of waiting until whenever. You'd have to consider that in your development plan. Mike Gorra: Yeah. Well yeah, and...I've already thought about that so it's not going to affect the golf course that much. I guess I'm not looking to move just to have another 2-3 acres on a golf course... The house has been there for 25 years and I don't think it should be moved now. But anyway, I'm looking at it from a landowner too. I'm not looking at it from a developer that's coming from 20 miles away that lives in Maple Grove and is developing this and is going to drive away and go home. So you might think well if this guys moves, and you're right. I live here. This is my home too. And if you guys, any one of you live here, it gives you second...as I am. It's not just a...development. I live here too so that's why I'm talking the stance... Thank you. REPORTS: RECREATION PROGRAMS: DAVE HUFFMAN 5K MEMORIAL RUN. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Lash and commissioners. First of all I want to thank all the commissioners who were there, either participating or helping. That day was a great success from all aspects of the race. We have not had our, kind of our final wrap up meeting yet for that. With different scheduling conflicts and maybe some needed time off`from the race, we're going to be doing that 7:00 Thursday moming at Perkins for kind of a breakfast wrap up meeting so. We'll be going through a lot of the, kind of as we've been going through and talking to different maintenance personnel that were on the course and different people that participated. We're trying, gathering information mode right now. You know I think Mike at one time you said they expect 270. There was anywhere from 250 to 270 runners and we're kind of going to narrow that down here after the wrap up meeting with people that paid and actually finished are two different things. Berg: Way too many hills. Lash: You need to go backwards. Berg: Yeah, reverse it. Ruegemer: That's all part of the challenge. You heard comments anywhere from the course was too many curves to people that liked it. I think people enjoyed going through downtown. I heard that quite a bit. Kind of bring the business equation into the kind of the realm of possibility. People liked going over the pedestrian bridge. I think a lot of the 250 people running across that didn't know it was there but all and 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 all, it was a great event. Kathy was here and Jack. Her son Justin stayed back in Naperville but they were pleased as punch. I think they were very overwhelmed by the race itself. Their involvement of the race. The number of people that participated. Just the layout of it. I think it was, as said in Kathy's letter. She was very touched by the dedication of the race committee and the community that embraced this wholeheartedly so that was a great event. It was fun working on a committee with all you guys, Rod and Mike, and the rest of the race committee. It really was a year long process and going through meetings and a lot of Tuesday nights but the end result was well worth it. It was a great event. We had a great start to it. Avery successful start to it, and I think a lot of people are really looking forward to next year already. It's going to be I think a nice addition to the community. I know we were going up against Nickel Pickle Days but, in Waconia, but I think we both can co-exist. But you know we could have more details after I attend our work session meeting on Thursday. Present in an Admin Section or something next month but does anybody have any questions or comments in regards to the race? Franks: People are coming up to me all the time saying, you know I usually don't run but I just felt great running in that race. Or I'm going to do it next year and my husband's going to do it with me. I mean it was just comments, people like that all the time. I normally wouldn't run in a race but I did this one. Ruegemer: I think we found our nitch. It wasn't that intimidating for people. You know 3.1 miles is very, you know. Lash: Doable. Ruegemer: Yeah, it's very doable and yeah. A lot of Dave's old neighbors said we never would have done this. Not in a million years had it not been for Dave and I think a lot of people have that attitude and it was great to see. And that's really what, it's another recreation opportunity for people to get out and exercise and enjoy our amenities in town so it's going to be a great race and it has a very bright future. Kathy's already said she's coming back next year so we're happy with that. Berg: Well kudo's to you and Rod and Mike. It takes an awlM1 lot of work that nobody ever sees to get this done. Howe: Jerry did a great job. The people at Americlnn too. They worked hard and they put a lot of their money and time into it and the way the businesses in town came together, very rewarding. Everybody, good job. Lash: That was great. Thanks. Okay, the next item is the Halloween party. HALLOWEEN PARTY. Ruegemer: And look it here, I have the volunteer sheets. I wonder if we can get every 7 names on here tonight. The party's coming up October 28th. Saturday, October 28th down at the Rec Center. 5:30 to 8:30. We'll be having a meeting with Cory and Susan at the Rec Center. Myself. Set down a lot of the details. Major details are already done and we're in the process of gathering volunteers. And we're on our way with that. We can always use some help. The hayrides again are going to be there. That's always a fun event. We've discussed different layouts of the Rec Center to increase pedestrian flow through the Rec Center so. Just have an FYI update as to when that's going to be coming up and fliers are going to go to schools here by Friday. Certainly get those out at next week's flier distribution we'll get those out so. I can pass the sheet around. Feel free to put your name on it as you're obligated to put your name on it and we can come up with costumes. 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Franks: Do I get to make my usual Halloween Party comments and say no hard candy. Ruegemer: Sure. Franks: No hard candy. I Ruegemer: We'll take that into consideration. Franks: I know it's expensive but no hard candy. Hoffman: Reason? Franks: Kids are too small. There's so many small children. Hoffman: Choking hazard? Franks: Choking hazard. Choking hazard. Lash: If they're that little, they shouldn't be coming. Franks: Oh, and that from a kindergarten teacher. Lash: No actually I asked for no hard candy. I'm just giving you a hard time. I know it'd be too late this year to do anything like this, and I could be way too just you know, over the edge. Maybe it's already totally enough entertainment for one night but would we ever want to consider like a costume contest or a pumpkin carving contest or something like that? Ruegemer: We've certainly talked about those in the past. Lash: Too much? Hoffman: You can do costumes. Pumpkin carving. Lash: Not that you'd do it there. You'd carve at home and bring it in. No, no, not do it there. What a mess that'd be but you could have, if they wanted to that day bring it in and have a table set up or something. Ruegemer: Similar to what we've done for like egg decorating contests sort of thing. Lash: Sure. Just a thought for down the road. Moes: The thing you did last year, I mean both gyms were used. The whole place was used actually. Franks: You know does that gym divide? Ruegemer: Yeah. Hoffman: In half. 22 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Franks: Yeah, but the school and the Rec have half gyms. Does that gym divide? Does the Rec Center gym divide? No, okay. Ruegemer: Just the one common wall. But there will be games as well and that will be. Moes: That's what I was saying. You know one had all the games in it that just had throngs of kids in it. Then the entertainment was in the second gym. I was just trying to think where we'd add more activities. Lash: I don't know. I just thought maybe in the entry. If they just set up a long table and put pumpkins on that. I don't know. That's just a thought. Hoffman: Pumpkins could wear costumes... Lash: Yeah. Are you going to send out little reminders? Ruegemer: For volunteering? Lash: Yes. Ruegemer: Sure. Lash: I hate to sign up and then forget. Okay, anything else on that? SELF-SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: 3 ON 3 FALL BASKETBALL LEAGUE. Lash: We've got the 3 on 3. It looks like it's going good, right Jerry? It's going good, right Jerry. Ruegemer: Everything is going great. 6 teams in the fall. Could have had 2 more but people called after schedules were done but that's always the case so we'll get our full 16 teams I'm confident in the winter time and that will start roughly about the second week of January. 2000 LAKE ANN CONCESSION EVALUATION. Lash: Then we've got the 2000 Lake Ann Concession Evaluation which is very comprehensive. Howe: I thought that was very well done. I've never seen a report, very good. Ruegemer: Am I dazzling you with paperwork? Howe: You didn't write that, did you? Franks: I just like seeing an official report with the word slush puppy in it. Lash: What is a slush puppy anyway? Like a snow cone or something. Ruegemer: Yeah, a little bit more. Lash: Icy? 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Ruegemer: Yeah. Slush puppies are great. Those really increased this past year. And the 2001 budget to replace a paddle boat. Those are the original paddle boats when we opened up operations on there. Some are held together with baling twine and duct tape so it's about time that we replaced those. But we'll see, but it's all and all, it's a good season again. It's making money. Some money. Manders: Part of this report that caught my eye was your comparison to pre and post entry fee. Ruegemer: It really has made a different down there and we've had large groups coming down and we do have the large group policy. If people are bringing in buses. They call me ahead of time and it's $25.00 per bus. If they show up it's $50.00 so we're really trying to encourage people to call ahead so we can staff properly with lifeguards and concession stafl~ Manders: All and all I know we've talked about it in past commissions, have you experienced or had reports of just mass chaos because there's so many buses or it was so crowded or is it just. Ruegemer: There are certain days that are busier than others, certainly. A lot of people you know show up unannounced and that certainly is a challenge at times but we hope to have measures in there too. Nothing that we haven't handled so far. It's busier on the hot days and daycare showing up. Not just so much buses, but even the neighborhood daycares show up. But we welcome people with potential sales so. Lash: But if you end up with a couple of bus loads coming in with 70 kids on there, and my biggest fear is the lifeguard stafl~ Manders: Well that's what I'm getting at. I mean are there so many at risk that people are jumping off`the top of the picnic shelter building where it's just so out of hand, or is it just busy? Which is okay. Ruegemer: And there is, the lifeguards are staggered throughout the course of the day that will handle those peak times so you know we're very confident that we've addressed those issues in the contract and with our aquatics manager. Lash: Okay, any other? Howe: Can I talk about potato chips for a minute here? Ruegemer: The what? Howe: Potato chips. You know you're talking about 100% mark-up from 27 cents a day, which I read this and I noted this. Have we ever gone to Festival and say can we get these for 24 or 25 cents a bag? They should support us. I mean because she talks here... Going to Sam's Club and all this and that and I just think, you know 2 or 3 cents a bag, I'd rather give them the business and see if they can do it so just, and who knows. In 10 months we'll do this again, the prices may be different anyway but to me I'd go to the manager and. Ruegemer: Festival's been very good to us in other ways. Howe: And he still probably makes money at 25 cents a bag. He may not care. That's something. Ruegemer: We'll talk to him... 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Howe: That's my 2 cents worth right there. Ruegemer: We'll try to work it out. Howe: I'm happy. Lash: Anything else? Berg: Then we could put a sign, food donated by and they just give it to us for nothing. Franks: So is increase in concession sales making up for the loss in gate fees? Ruegemer: You know when it's all said and done it's practically a wash. Franks: Awash. With less headaches. RECREATION CENTER. Lash: Under the Rec Center we've got Susan's report. Pretty much covers everything there. Was this the month that we were supposed to get the daycare thing or did we already get that? Showing the. Hoffman: We've talked about it. I was thinking it was every September but that was close to. I think we did... Moes: I'm not sure if it was as in depth. When we saw the daycare the thought that came to my mind, because I know they sell the punches and so how much is revenue versus punches yet to be used. HolTman: We had a report. Moes: Because I did have another question on the Rec Center. The fee increase. Towards the bottom we're saying that for the month of December we would offer a sale on punch cards or if you buy a 40 punch, you get a 10 punch card free. I'm just curious as to why we'd give them a 10 punch card free. Hoffman: That's simply a promotion that's used suggesting in event the event that we raise rates as suggested. Lash: For January. So people would kind ofbuy up ahead oftime. Hoffman: You don't need to do it. You don't need to raise rates, all suggestions. Lash: Well we need to do something because we've got some equipment there that's going to need to get replaced. So you know is there some kind of long term plan of how we're supposed to be budgeting for that? Hoffman: Yes there is. Lash: Okay. 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Moes: When I look at it, I think our rates are still significant. Not significantly maybe but they're still less than comparable rates and my reaction was, do we need to give a 10 punch card free due to the fact that we're raising the rates. Is that going to influence anybody buying the punch cards? Lash: If they know the fee's going to go up though, stock up in December anyway. Howe: Help front load your December. Lash: Whether they're on sale or not. Moes: So we really wouldn't need to give them the 10 punch card free because they'd stock up anyway. I'm just looking at it. Hoffman: Let's put them up. If favor of a rate increase? Moes: Yes. Berg: I don't know ifI am or not. Are we going to lose people because we raise the rates? It's nice to compare to the community center but that's not comparing apples to apples. Hoffman: The biggest hit is to an aerobics person who pays what, 2 punches. Right Jan, to get into aerobics and you're going to pay $4.00. Berg: And they're now paying. Hoffman: $3.00. Lash: $4.00 gets a little steep, doesn't it? For an aerobics class. Howe: I don't know, you join the Y. The Y a single membership is $45.00 or $50.00 so you've got to go, you've got to take 10 aerobic classes a month before you're even there. I don't think it's out of line. Okay, I mean it's obviously it's an increase from where it is now but I don't think it's out of line. I'm sure people will complain about it. Lash: Well the one nice thing that I've always thought that this has versus some of the other programs, and when you sign up for an aerobics class there's every Tuesday, Thursday and for 6 weeks and you pay. So all of a sudden you go out of town one week, you missed a class. Too bad. So you're out whatever you paid. Where this you just. Howe: Pay as you go. Lash: Right so. Yeah, in the long run you probably come out further ahead. Franks: Does the, over a year does the increase project out to a lot of money? Hoffman: I don't have those projections... Franks: Because if we end up losing just like the MTC question. Where you increase fares and you lose ridership and you don't want to increase too much to lose so many riders that you end up losing money so. 26 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 I mean if the rate increase doesn't necessarily translate into a net increase, then I don't know if we'd want to do it. Lash: Have we had an increase since it's opened? Hoffman: No. Lash: And how long as it been opened? Howe: 5 years. Hoffman: 4, going on 5 years. If you figured it out you know 5% over 5 years, it's less than that. And costs go up and you need to pay for equipment and I think, the reason Susan didn't come out with rave reviews backing me on it is because she's going to take some hits from the aerobics people. So she left it up to the big guns to take the heavy hits and she just...but it's time and I don't think you raise them. The reason we waited so long is because you don't raise them a dime or a quarter, you raise them equal amounts and that's why we've waited 5 years and I think it's time to raise the rent. Manders: I think my interest in a rate increase, I'm not opposed to it is, how with an earlier question in terms of equipment replacement. Is that contingent on revenues generated from this? Hoffman: No. Manders: Or is it totally separated budgets? Hoffman: Totally separated budget. That's the one thing that you've probably leamed about municipal government is that the revenues go into the general fund and expenditures we fight for on an annual basis. Lash: Money is not money. Hoffman: No correlation. Manders: Officially but unofficially you kind of want to have some... Hoffman: Well the aerobics room, the only thing making, or the fitness room and the aerobics room are the only thing making it so if you want to be a good business person you should pay attention to those rooms and replace the equipment and keep it updated because it's paying for itself. Manders: Exactly. I mean the reason the other rooms aren't making money is that we're giving them away. Hoffman: Correct. The building is still a loser in the long run. But this is where we're paying the rent. Lash: Okay. So what are we doing with that? Hoffman: You need a motion to do something. City Council authorize for a rate increase and then we'll initiate it. Manders: I move that we, what accept the, is it a recommendation? 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Hoffman: Yep. Manders: For a rate increase at the Rec Center and whatever the rate is. 50 cents or prorated. Lash: As reconunended. Manders: AS reconunended. Lash: Is there a second for that? Howe: Second. Manders moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommends that the City Council authorize a lee increase of 50 cents across the board for the Chanhassen Recreation Center. All voted in favor, except Franks who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote o1'6 to 1. Lash: Do you want to share? Franks: Well it's hard for me to vote for it when I'm not sure exactly what the benefit is going to be and if we're just raising rates because we haven't raised them in 5 years, I'm not just real comfortable right now voting to do that. Hoffman: Rod, those numbers would not be hard to run them out. We can estimate that again. Estimating is, you could estimate it based on current numbers and then you'd have to guess after that. SENIOR CENTER REPORT. Lash: Any questions or comments on that? Manders: ...trip looks good. Hoffman: They take a lot of nice trips. PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE REPORT. Lash: Anybody have anything there? Berg: Are we going to lose anything with all the inability to water? Hoffman: No. It's just how it looks and how it plays this year. 2001 PARK AND TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CIP. Hoffman: I wanted to keep you up on a change that the school is no longer interested in partnering in the 50%. They are going to pay I think about $2,700 to patch the cracks. In addition, the estimate on the wall signs has come in at about $8,800 in the first quote. I met with the second letter today. In addition to seeing the real numbers, I will be requesting of the city manager that we pay for that out of the excess from 28 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 last year's monument sign. Or from this year's monument sign. Just get it done. And then that would strike out this budget. Lash: And then is there something up in the air now about the 101 trail? Hoff`man: Well from what I know, the State of Minnesota is talking with the counties, Hennepin and Carver about taking the highway back. I don't know that that affects the trail application that is currently in to MnDot from the city but it's certainly a new development. Karlovich: Do we want to add back in $40,000 worth of some type of play equipment somewhere? It just appears as if Highway 101 trail doesn't go through, then we've only had budgeted about $140,000 worth of improvements and I think our original goal was $200-250. Is what we thought our budget should be. Lash: Yeah, I guess if the 101 trail thing for some reason got pulled oft; wasn't the next priority that we ended up scrapping the 101 south connection between Bandimere and Chan Hills, right? Howe: We're not going to know that though for a while. Lash: No. And what was our estimate on that? Hoff`man: We had $200,000. $200,000 would complete the south trail. It will not the north trail. Jay, this can be changed at any time through the year. Let's say we find out in March that this is not going to happen. You can request of the council a budget amendment anytime throughout the year. Lash: Did we have, but Jay your point is kind of more of a $40,000, isn't it? That's gotten scratched off there. Should we move up something that had backed off`from? Karlovich: Well 346 is a lot but if the 200,000 goes away and it's not replaced with something else, then I felt as though we should move something up there. Something else. Lash: If we looked at our 5 year CIP, you know chances are there's something we've got in 2002. Another play structure or. Hoff`man: The Bandimere play structure still has not been funded. Lash: And then we've got the $10,000 from the sign too, right? Karlovich: Or that one at Meadow Creek looked bad tonight. Hoff`man: That one's in there as well. Lash: So there are some substitutions that will be pretty easy to slip in there. Berg: But we can do that when we see what shakes down. Lash: Yeah. So we don't really need to do anything. This is kind of FYI, isn't it? Hoff`man: Correct. CITY COUNCIL MEETING ATTENDANCE PROCEDURE. 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Hoffman: Just clarification for everyone, including the support staffto make sure they stay on top of this policy. Manders: I'm going to be on for next Monday prior to our next meeting on October and I probably won't be here. For that council meeting. Hoffman: The Lake Ann Park building will be awarded that night... Berg: Which issue, I'm sorry. I wasn't paying attention. What are they going to be talking about at that meeting? Hoffman: Awarding the Lake Ann Park building bids. Those bids will be opened next Thursday. It will be awarded then that night. 9(c) I would like to add is, do you want to schedule the Gorra field trip? Lash: Yes. Manders: That'd be great. Hoffman: Next Tuesday night? Lash: What's that, like the 3rd? Berg: I can't make it that night but that's not essentially. For conferences again. Hoffman: Pick a night when all of us can get there. Moes: Wednesday would work better for myself. Karlovich: I don't know unless looking at a schedule. Manders: Tuesday works for me. Franks: Soccer on Tuesdays. Karlovich: Should we just do it at our next, before our next meeting? Lash: Monday? Am I the only one who has nothing to do? Moes: Saturday moming about what, 11:00-11:30 or something? Lash: I've been there lots of times on Saturday momings. Usually it's before 11:00. Manders: Do you walk into the woods or do you just do that limestone trail? Lash: No, I go the other way. Franks: What time? Lash: Through the woods?... Well how about Monday? 30 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Moes: That's fine. I mean any other day. Berg: Monday's good for me. Hoffman: Monday night? Lash: Monday night? Howe: Monday. What time. Karlovich: This Monday? I have a City Council meeting. Lash: Here? Karlovich: No. Hoffman: Second Monday. Karlovich: No, yeah. I don't have a City Council meeting. Yeah, that's fine. Hoffman: 2nd of October, meet at the Lake Ann parking lot right there inside the park. Lash: Well we've got to have plenty of daylight so, 6:00. Manders: Are you going to send us a little reminder? Hoffman: Oh yeah. I promise some maps. Howe: Which parking lot? Hoffman: First one on the left. And we'll take a big walk. We'll go all the way through...into Lake Ann. Lash: Are you talking about, yeah. Yeah I know that, but the, like where that gate is? So ifI came from the beach and I went up that, the little rock trail and I came out where that gate is, are you talking about there? That parking lot or way down? Hoffman: The one closest to Highway 5. Howe: Right by the tennis courts, right? Just north of the tennis courts. Hoffman: Just north of the tennis courts, left hand side. Manders: 6:00 onMonday? Hoffman: Yep. Lash: Okay, then. Howe: Can I bring my kids? Is that okay? ... 31 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 Lash: Did you have anything else? COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Berg: What a nice, warm letter. In the administrative section. Lash: Which one? Berg: Dear Fields Task Force Member. My heart was warmed with that personal touch. Lash: Who was it addressed to anyway? Berg: Did you antagonize this person that she doesn't want to use your name? Hoffman: Personally thank you. I want a personal thank you. Berg: Whatever your name is. Ruegemer: Best 5 or 6 months of my life. Hoffman: And we didn't get a dime, did we? All your work. Chanhassen didn't get a dime. Ruegemer: City of Carver got a little cabbage but not the City of Chanhassen. Lash: So Jerry, was this letter that you wrote really to Todd? Or was this supposed to be from... Ruegemer: Well Todd got one of the... Hoffman: Which letter? Lash: The one that he talked to you about Frank Scott. Ruegemer: Todd was.., among other CAA parents and others. Hoffman: I was on the mailing list. Moes: Was there attendance at that meeting or what was the outcome? Hoffman: Oh yeah. More fighting to be done. Moes: Along what issues? Who wants to take charge? Ruegemer: The current president is really unaware I think of some of the issues at hand and is somewhat clouded in his view of how things are running. He kind of views things as running very smoothly at this point and a hiccup in the road. After Frank had passed and we're working to educate him and get some of 32 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 26, 2000 the issues up to the forefront and kind of address the more short term issues plus the long term issues as CAA working in this, is it working in the current capacity that it is right now or is it time to look at you know potentially splitting off into two separate associations to getter serve the public is kind of the crust. Hoffman: If you're tempted to be a leader in the area of youth sports in this community, now's the time. Berg: Not a lot of money in it. Lash: Okay, anybody have anything else in the administrative packet? Okay, I had a couple of quick comments Jerry on the park inventory. Just in the future, if we have in terms of compiling this kind of information, I would find it helpful if like at the end where it has notes and observations, in that particular, in those particular areas, if information was current. Ruegemer: Yeah we had talked about that as far as, you know you're talking about like notes from 1992 and that sort of thing? Lash: Right. Right. Ruegemer: We had talked about that. I kept those in there for historical purposes. Lash: But you know, has it been completed? You know I mean that's the kind of stuffifI look at it and I read, okay did we do that or didn't we get on to doing it together? Is it still hanging on? So you know even if there was a note next to it, completed in '93 or whatever. Then we know at least, otherwise I'm not quite sure because I can't remember. And then the other thing I found, just two things that need to be corrected. One is at Round House Park. It doesn't have swimming beach checked, which we have. And also for Sugar Bush Park, if you look at the second page of Sugar Bush Park is actually the second page from Greenwood Shores Park because it shows Sugar Bush has a beach and a dock and stuff like that. Hoffman: That's if you get in your golf cart. Franks: Also on Curry Farms Park it doesn't have the boat access listed there. In the swamp part. Swimming beach in Curry Farms. Lash: Okay, anybody else have anything? Okay, is there a motion to adjoum? Berg moved, Moes seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 33