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PRC 2000 07 25CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JULY 25, 2000 Chairwoman Lash called the Park and Recreation Commission meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Mike Howe, Jim Manders, David Moes, Jay Karlovich, Fred Berg and Rod Franks MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent; and Tracy Peterson, Recreation Supervisor APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Todd Hoffman amended the agenda to include an administrative presentation. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Lash: Mayor Mancino has mentioned she has a couple of items she'd like to share. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. My name is Nancy Mancino, 6620 Galpin Boulevard and what I wanted to say was, and share with you is, all the phone calls, all the compliments, all the just people stopping me and saying how wonderful the July 3rd and 4th events were. So I just wanted to come up and publicly thank you on behalf of the Council and on behalf of all the residents in Chanhassen who attended. You just put on a wonderful, wonderful, tremendous event. So thank you to the commission for working on it so much. Todd, thank you very, very much and Tracy. I mean it was just a delight to go and to walk around and see so many people having such a good time. So many families just everybody everywhere. My husband said, he looked at me when we were up on the, watching the pony rides and everything and he said, Nancy you never told me that Chanhassen was the epicenter for children between 3 and 8 you know. And it was just, you know I've lived here 17 years and it was by far the coolest event that we had this year. I think. From my perspective. So again a very, very heartfelt thanks. I just know that everyone who came, and other people who didn't come said they're coming next year because they heard about how great it was. So what a just a perfect community event. And again I honestly can't really express it more. It was just so cool being there, so thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And anything that we can do to support it and support you in it. You know I know you always have to do a post mortem and look at it and say you know, what do we want to do for next year and everything. One of the coolest to me was the, it was the illustrations. The chalk drawing contest. As I said to Tracy and Susan, I'd hate to be a judge up here. I mean it was just, it was really neat to see and we've got to get the lateral out next year and get somebody with a camera, a huge camera up taking a picture of it you know from the sky down because that was really, really fun. I mean I could go on and on and on. It was just a very good feeling. Hoffman: Thanks for all your work on the parade. Mayor Mancino: You're welcome. You're welcome. Any questions you have of me of what's going on? Anything that you've heard about or want to ask me about? Lash: I have just one quick question, th and it is about the 4 of July and I was going to praise stafftoo. I thought, and I've been to every one and I thought this year's was just the best and I don't know why. It just Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 seemed like it was so well attended and everyone seemed to have fun. They stayed. I mean it really was fabulous and I said to everybody in my family, I said don't you just think this year's was just the greatest? It just gets better every year and they said no, it's always been. So they didn't see any difference. For me it felt different and I'm not sure why but it really was, it was really, really good. But I was wondering, I know this year because of the millennium that the fireworks budget was increased so how do you think that, the City Council will feel for next year. Do you feel like they'll want to continue with the same amount or is that something that you think will need to be tamed down or? Mayor Mancino: Well just my personal opinion I mean again, I heard that the fireworks was great too so that was part of it. It ended with a big splash, etc. So I don't know about the rest of council but I would see keeping it at the level it was, and obviously adding some more suppliers or vendors of food and you know all that. And the gathering place. I mean if it ever, you know if there's one thing was how important that green space is and thinking of multi use of it. Whether it's farmers market every Saturday moming or whatever, but there is a tremendous amount of things that can be done out in that green space and it seems that, from what I could tell on the 3rd or 4th, and maybe I'm projecting this too much, but we just have so many young families who I think want to come and gather together and have a good time together that it might be the time to bring back the pops music every Saturday night or something like that for a couple hours and to experiment with different kinds of bringing people together in the green space a lot more often than just the 3rd and 4th. And you know I'd leave that up to you to come up with great ideas but it might be a time just to try some more different activities, events for the family because there was just, yeah. And most people thought, at least I got that youknowit was bigger and more people than ever. Ithinkitjust floored a lot of people. You couldn't find a parking spot. So it was cool. So again, thank you. Lash: Thank you. Hoffman: Other questions for Nancy? Lash: Also did you, I'm sure you read our Minutes word for word so, last month when we had the YMCA gentleman here. Did you have thoughts about that? Mayor Mancino: No I haven't. To tell you the truth I missed the last City Council meeting and so I'm still in the middle of reading that packet. But from your talking for a minute. I mean I got, you know I glanced it over a little bit but I realized I needed to spend more time on that. So I will do that. Hoffman: Mr. Hubbard is appearing before the City Council on the 14th of August I believe at a work session. Lash: Oh, okay. And more just to get you kind of up to speed with what we, I think and our conversation last month was that we wanted to try to have a work session too and brainstorm different things, avenues we'd like to try and explore with that so. Mayor Mancino: Just so I'm understanding. Kind of the sequence of events, next step is he'll be coming to our work session meeting and kind of educating us or like he did you, and then after that we will get together as a joint commission and council maybe to talk about it. Lash: I think we'd like to get together first so that at least we are somewhat of you know, maybe one mind or one direction before we meet with you guys. And then move forward from there and tell you sort of what our ideas are and throw it out there for you guys to look at and get some direction and then we'd be able to go back and work some more. 2 Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 Mayor Mancino: Just so you know, a lot of times when little ideas hatch, it takes more than one or two meetings together because youknow, again just sequencing here. You've heard fromhimbut youhaven't talked together as a group. We'll hear from him but we haven't talked together as a group. Sojustthe steps being, we'd probably like the time to talk together too as a group, as a council and then get together with you and then brainstorm ideas and then keep getting together. I mean I just having these one time meetings and that's all you communicate whereas you kind of like to go back and forth on that big of an idea. So that's just my perspective. Lash: Okay, thanks. Okay. I don't see any other visitors so I'm assuming we have no other presentations. So we'll move on to approval of our minutes from June 27th. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Howe moved, Karlovich seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated June 27, 2000 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. REQUEST TO SUBDIVIDE A 3.4 ACRE PARCEL INTO 5 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND TWO OUTLOTS ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF, RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED AT 6900 MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY, YVHITE OAK ADDITION, COFFMAN DEVELOPMENT SERVICES, INC. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: How about if we start with Jim then we'll move on to Jay. Manders: I'll get to the obvious things in terms of this bordering areas. Is it something in terms of fencing or berms or issues like that or what? Hoffman: No. There's nothing proposed by the applicant. We worked with them since the initial phases, the construction of Round House Park. Originally we promised them a chain link fence which they over time said they did not want and I believe that has something to do with the fact that they knew they were going to be developing their property so, if these homeowners who purchase these lots, they will have the opportunity to fence the park from their yard. Manders: Then there's no need for any other trail access from the back side or it probably doesn't affect these properties. Is there any kind of informal trail or there isn't anything coming in? Hoffman: Informal trail between the two lots where the existing house is noted. It'd be to the west. At the time that this was developed, Country Oaks, or the Oaks at Minnewashta, we chose not to accept that trail connection through all. We looked at it up here. Manders: See ifI have my directions right. Our existing park is right in the lower part? Hoffman: Yep. Right where it says government lot. Manders: Yep. Okay. Lash: Okay, Jay? Karlovich: My two questions were first of all, what's happening with Outlot A and Outlot B? Do we own some property along Minnewashta on the other side of the road? Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 Hoffman: We own the beachlot, just to the south of Outlot A. So that's a public beach, and then Outlot A and B are owned by the Wenzel's but they are not large enough to be a beachlot for their development so they're just remaining as private parcels connected to Lot 2 1 believe. Karlovich: So Lot 2 owns Outlot A and will have a dock out there? Hoffman: They have a dock out there today. Karlovich: And then Outlot B will go with Lot 17 Hoffman: Probably, yeah. Karlovich: The only other question I had was, there's like no holding pond. I guess we're going to get additional drainage then. Will that cause any problem? I mean by the contours it looks like it drains down there but when you put roof tops on and pavement and sprinkler systems or whatever, we'll get more drainage down into the park. Hoffman: The engineering department will review the drainage and make any necessary recommendations to the City Council. Not my area. Karlovich: Do we want part of Outlot A for our beach, or any part of B, or is that even not? Hoffman: What's the total acreage on this? Lash: 3.4. Hoffman: Yeah, 3.4 so you could take .34 acres and it would serve no benefit to the existing beach. If there was a benefit we could certainly look at that. It serves very well and there would be a very emotional battle to try to take their dock in Outlot A for the park and I don't see the need. Karlovich: Okay, I'm done with my questions. Lash: Okay, Fred. Berg: And you see no problem with the access to Round House with any of this? Hoffman: Other than Lot 1 is going to be somewhat isolated but I don't, you know providing an access for a single lot is something that we just. Lash: Well can't they just come down the trail on Minnewashta? The trail goes right across the front of their yard. Hoffman: Sure, right across the from. Berg: So it won't impact the park in any way really. I have nothing else. Lash: No, I had the same question as Jim regarding fencing or whatever and we have none there now, correct? 4 Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 Hoffman: No. Lash: And I don't know that it would be our intention to put up fencing, however often times we'll have the residents come in and start asking us for fencing so I would just want to have that. Manders: Right, for vegetation and all the... Lash: Right, I would want to I guess have that clear to the applicant that any perspective buyers be informed that if they seek property, that they will be required to do that on their own and not to come and ask us for it. Okay. That's all I would have. Do you have anything Rod? Franks: Just because I'm curious. Where is, behind which lot is the play structure? Hoffman: 3 and 4. Franks: So in the middle. Hoffman: Just about square on 3. Franks: And that's the one where the retaining wall is built in? Hoffman: Yes. Franks: So is that a pretty big elevation change from where this lot would be to where the park is? Hoffman: Yep. Franks: That's all, thanks. Lash: Okay. David? Moes: Nothing here. Lash: Mike? Howe: No. I was just going to talk about Lot 1 and having access and ifI understood you correctly Todd, this whole project hinges on whether or not they can built the other half of that circle? Hoffman: Yes. Howe: And that's kind of iffy right now? Hoffman: So it may go away and come back in a few years. It may not happen yet. Howe: That's all I have. Berg: This is where all the out buildings were. Hoffman: Yep. You can see them on there. The pole bam. That's the garage. Wenzel's have been there since the 50's. Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 Lash: But there's, if you look right up under where it says shared. You know the proposed shared driveway. It says existing house. Was that going to get tom down then? Hoff`man: Yep, it would be tom down. Lash: How about the one that's right across from that? Hoffman: That's a part of the neighbor's property. Lash: That's the other, okay. Hoff`man: Both of these property owners had the opportunity to combine and sell out at the time it was platted originally but they chose not to do that. Manders: This is kind of a different question. You know when we were I think doing the referendum tour, or maybe part of the park tour. Was it the next property over that we were evaluating or considering for a park and he wanted us to put up in the back comer? Was it that west property or north property? Hoff`man: It was farther away. We looked at either where the park is today or farther up and to the west. Manders: Yeah, but wasn't it this, the other half of that circle, kind of up in that area? Hoff`man: We drove through there but it was farther to the west through the Hallgren property. Manders: Oh okay. Alright. Lash: Okay, anyone else? Alright, is there a motion then? Do we need a motion? Hoff`man: I'm just going to pass on the comments to the planning staff`and give them the minutes. REVIEW THE HIGHWAY 101 NORTH TRAIL CONCEPT PLANS. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: Can you just tell me what CBMH stands for? It says proposed CBMH. Hoff`man: Is it on Sheet 2 of 16 Jan? Lash: No, actually I'm 3 right now. It's on there in a couple places. Karlovich: Catch basin man hole. Lash: What is it? Karlovich: Just guessing, catch basin man hole or something like that. Hoff`man: Catch basin man hole. Sounds about right. 6 Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 Lash: Okay, is there anyone who's got questions or comments? Manders: So where are we looking at that nasty curve? Is that on the 2 right there where that's so steep and close to all the houses? Hoffman: Yep. T-2 and then the comer ofT-3. This is proposing a lot, retaining wall, guardrail type thing. So you would have a wall coming straight offofthe road down and a trail, then a wall going straight down to the homes. Manders: Right. Hoffman: Difficult location. One of the areas that drives up the cost. If you look at the total cost estimated, $565,000. Howe: But don't they say on, it says, they add a whole bunch of other things that aren't included in that and they say typically, and they omit a couple, that that's 30% in addition to this so we're looking at a lot more than this, right? Hoffman: Correct. Add any in acquisition. Landscape replacement. Depends on what you have to promise to get the project done. We did not include landscaping in the city's trail project. The '98 trail project. In this case... Manders: So this is going to mn over... Howe: Well it gets close to $900,000 when you add in. You have 100 grand for landscaping and then the 30% on top of that. Manders: And then we haven't got the easements yet. Hoffman: They're trying to minimize the easements but there will be some. Manders: Right. Howe: And this all hinges upon the fact that Eden Prairie and Hennepin County and Chanhassen and Carver County have to agree on this whole road stmcture, right? Or is this a done deal? Hoffman: No. This is being considered separate by the council. I'll hand out an additional handout which I received today and just flip through it. You see Highway 101 trail. Tentative project schedule. Lash: So we're easily looking at a million dollars. Hoffman: It will probably be less than a million but. Lash: So, and where's that money coming from? Hoffman: Undetermined at this time. Manders: Your budget, what do you think. Berg: We're spending our's for trees on Highway 5. 7 Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 Hoffman: A portion of it could certainly come out of park dedication. Park and trail dedication. It's a complicated project. If the road project was initiated and completed, there would be dollars that exist in the tax increment financing district, maintained by the city to pay for trail costs. With the absence of the road project those dollars cannot be accessed for the trail so if the city approves this trail independent of the road project, financing is pretty much on our own. Lash: I thought at one time they were talking about TIF money. Hoffman: Yep. If the road was improved, TIF money could be used for the trail. Absent of the road project, the TIF dollars cannot be used for the trail. Right now there's really no hope that the road project will be settled for 2 to 5 years at the nearest. And if MnDot or Hennepin County mills it and overlays it, that will soon tum into, easily tum into 10 years. Could easily. Lash: So when is it that the City Council and the City Manager, when are they planning on starting this project? Hoffman: The tentative schedule is listed in that packet l handed out. Orderofpreparations. Submit concept plans to MnDot tomorrow. Order preparation of plans and specs on September 25th and then approve plans and specifications on the 27th. With construction occurring next spring. Lash: And completion to be? Hoffman: Next August. Lash: Oh! I'm looking at the wrong page. Okay. Okay, does anybody have any comments that you'd like to pass onto City Manager Botcher? Karlovich: I'm just not quite, where is the funding coming from? I mean this is like it would take 4 or 5 years of our normal budget to fund this. How much do we have in the park and trail fund? Hoffman: Currently about 3/4 of a million dollars. Karlovich: How can we afford it then? Hoffman: I don't believe that we can afford the whole trail project. There would be some general trail fund dollars that would be dedicated to the project. But as a part of the funding package, park dedication and trail construction fees can certainly be accessed so. Probably the primary reason why the project is being brought to your attention because at some point a funding issue's going to have to be discussed and I've not been, those discussions have not taken place to any, with any specific details. But where the majority of the emphasis has been placed up to now is to how can we still use, utilize tax increment dollars and road improvement dollars with the trail that is independent of the road project. But those doors are being closed. Howe: How long is the shot from downtown to Pleasant View? Is it over a mile? Hoffman: Over a mile. I think it's about a mile 6. Mile 4. 1.4 1.6. (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) 8 Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 Berg: I guess my concem that I would express to Mr. Botcher, I'm all for this trail. It's been a long time in coming but not at the expense of everything else in the parks and rec department. This would put everything on hold for 5 years. For all intensive purposes because we're going to be told that we have to use our budget for this. That's robbing Peter to pay Paul as far as I'm concemed. Lash: It's mostly robbing Peter. Berg: Yeah. Paul gets the shaft one more time. I don't think that's appropriate and I certainly don't think it's a good use of the funds. Not to handcuff`us with everything else. Lash: Well I guess I piggy back a little bit on that, and I believe we would all be in agreement. This trail has been a long time in coming and very much needed and a goal. I don't know that this commission ever as a body made a recommendation that we were willing to allocate our entire budget to this project. I think as Fred says. And I don't know that I've said this ever really on the record, but I'll go ahead and just say it tonight because that's how I feel. I feel like this commission as a body was more or less circumvented in this whole process. Not that the 101 trail project is one that I really would have relished taking on because it was very emotional and very volatile, but I do think that we are a commission and we are supposed to be used for parks and trails and on this particular issue I don't think that we were used in the least. Other than the fact that you know, it got brought up once in a while at a meeting and we were updated. And I take some offense to that because I think that's what our role is and I think that the other trail projects that Todd has done in this city have been very well done and very, handled very professionally and very correctly as far as dealing with a lot of the residents. And I don't know how far your involvement goes with this Todd. I'd like to think that you will be involved as much as you were in the projects that we did under the referendum but I really feel like somewhere along the line someone stepped over, stepped in and took this project and went with it and we were left aside. So I don't know if anyone else feels that way but at the end, right before it's going to go out to someone tomorrow moming, we're given at our meeting the time line and the map and asked for comments and I think it's a little too little too late for a commission to act on. Sothere. I've probablyjust stuck my foot it in but. Hoff`man: If we take a look at the budget process, the commission would have certainly considered allocating dollars to Highway 101 north trail but there was always the assumption that the project would be financed through tax increment financing and the road and those type of things. So given that, is the commission willing to back up the 101 connector between Chanhassen Hills and Bandimere and then allocate those dollars to this trail in the 90 and the 2001 budget allocation and then look into the future for the other trail. The comprehensive plan would say that was the schedule. The comprehensive plan identifies 101 north as the number one priority in the city 10 years ago and has not been completed to date SO. Berg: What we've always done in the past is when we've had our budget meetings is talk about earmarking a certain amount and putting it aside. Is that what you're suggesting? Then I can understand something like that. To bankroll so much of it, like Jan said, out of the blue. I concur by what she said earlier and I'd like to be on record too as being very disappointed that the commission was circumvented in this entire process. If you're suggesting that we allocate a certain amount and do that for the next X number of years, I'm in favor of that because that's what we've done before. Manders: Haven't we allocated funds to date for that north section of trail? Hoff`man: Maybe something that says reserve. Manders: I thought we dedicated funds. We haven't? 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 Howe: I don't think so. Not that I'm aware of. Hoffman: There's always been, again the assumption that the road project would take care of the financing of the trail and that's certainly been the plan. And that was the discussion during the referendum as well. Why didn't the referendum finance the trail? Well because you know let's let the road project build the trail and finance it and we're not going to put it in premature so. Berg: And we even said that in the brochure as I recall. Manders: So then my question would be, at some point that road gets upgraded, then the financing of the new trail that goes in falls on who's shoulders? Hoffman: It should be as a part of the road project. Manders: So then the city isn't going to get hit up with. Hoffman: May or may not. It's hard to speculate based on our future project. Karlovich: Well, I just have some opinions on that. It looks like we're going to be putting the trail in a lot of MnDot right-of-way by limited use permit? Hoffman: Yes. Karlovich: And then what type of obligation do they have to protect it, compensate us or give us additional right-of-way? I think most of the limited use permits let you, I've drafted a few of them in my days. Lets you go ahead and put it there but don't guarantee you that you'll ever get compensated or when they widen the road, they're not going to just give you a trail back. Hoffman: There's no guarantees but politically if there's a trail there and they're going to take it out as a part of the project, historically the project attempts to take on the trail and the replacement of it. Which is...in that area. We have limited use agreements for the Highway 7 trail. We're almost wholly within the right-of-way of Highway 7. Pioneer with the County. 101 with the State. Most of the, well all those trails were put in somebody else's right-of-way as a part of the construction of those trails. I think it's certainly in our benefit to work with the other communities in working with the city business to make this thing happen. If you can imagine, it'd be difficult to get another trail segment built in this city before 101 is upgraded. There is so much momentum now for 101 that if we were to propose, well let's go build another trail segment somewhere else, we're going to hit up against a lot of resistance and so again to clarify my statement made earlier, the capital plan has $200,000 that was allocated or a recommendation for 2001 for that connection between Chanhassen Hills and Bandimere. I don't see that that would be approved if 101 is not, or the budget for 101 is not settled or if the trail is not approved and so is it appropriate under the circumstances to make recommendation that that allocation go towards 101 north and the future allocation either in 2002 or 2003 be given to the connector trail down in Chanhassen Hills. The scenario has changed since we last talked about those budget dollars. Berg: Where are we with land acquisition in terms of money left from the referendum? Did you say at one of our previous meetings that there may be a little bit left? Hoffman: There may be. I can tell you that the difference, the Fox condemnation hearings finished up last week. The difference is, just the difference, I can tell you this. Just the difference between what our value 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 is and their value is is more money than is in the bank. So where we end up is anybody's guess at this point. But I hope that there's money left over from that referendum process. And you can use that for open space acquisition. You can use that for trail development if you chose. Berg: It's a logical place to put it it would seem to me. Karlovich: Is that the $700,000 you were talking about or that's? Hoffman: There's about a million four in open space acquisition right now. In the bank. Karlovich: Okay. Berg: That's different than the 750. Hoffman: Yeah, correct. Excuse me, I didn't track his conversation. Yeah, the 750 is in the bank in the park dedication. Park and trail dedication fund. Franks: ...doing anything to 101 north, the highway itself, the road. Well I would agree that that is probably one of the most necessary pieces of trail that we should install in the city. I mean it really is lacking. But to think that you know when you drive down that road, you pretty much know it's not going to last that much longer. I mean it's going to get so bad so quickly that something is going to need to happen. And to think that this is going to be our most expensive piece of trail to date on something that's temporary or is it temporary or MnDot says this and I remember talking to MnDot about 212 and they're saying you know, it will never be built unless it's a toll way and now you know it's going to be built almost all the way through to the Chan border. And it's not a toll way and that was a year later that started so you know, it's such a guessing game and we're guessing with just under a million dollars. That's a lot of guessing. I mean in a way it makes sense for it to be part of the road and if it was going to be part of the road project, I can understand how and that kind of leaves our control a little bit because that's this big engineering project more than it is a trail project. But if the road's not going in, then it becomes kind of a straight trail project so, but I can see how things might have gotten goofed up. Then we are going to be asked to pony up for it like we should, but it is a little disconcerting that we've been removed from the planning process for this trail. If that's the case. Hoffman: The engineers were working on the road project and they separated out the trail project and the City Manager simply assigned a coordination to the engineers that were working on the road project so... Lash: If you just think of Coulter Boulevard or whatever that was, that we were on tonight, that was a road project and there was trails incorporated and we were given the plan a long time before the night before it was going out. So you know the whole thing just boggles me that it has gotten to this point before, and especially now that our funds are being expected to be used. That this is the time that we're brought into the process. You know we've been told our budget isn't our budget. Ultimately it's the City Council's budget but then ultimately why, you know why are we even here? If our suggestions for budgets, for long range planning are severely altered or hindered by a project that the City Council has taken over. The engineering department or whoever has taken it over. That skews our 5 year plan and we didn't really have any input into it. Hoffman: There's business later on the agenda. Lash: It's not going to come out of our budget? 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 25, 2000 Hoffman: The Highway 5 project will not come out of our budget. We hope. Lash: But that's 115. This is a million. Hoffman: I don't think we're going to find a million in our budget. Chairwoman Lash adjourned the Park and Recreation Commission meeting due to severe weather in the area. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 12