Loading...
PRC 1999 11 23CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING NOVEMBER 23, 1999 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Fred Berg, Mike Howe, Jay Karlovich, Rod Franks and David Moes MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Manders STAFF PRESENT: Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Howe moved, Karlovich seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated October 26, 1999 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. REQUEST FOR PUBLIC GATHERING PERMIT~ WATER SKIING TOURNAMENT AT LAKE SUSAN PARK. Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item. Lash: Thanks Jerry. Are there commissioners who have questions for Jerry before we open it up? Berg: Maybe later. Lash: I think we'd like to hear first from the applicant and then we'll open it up to the residents who are here. Joe Mueller: Well thanks for having us here this evening. This will be our fourth year here in Chanhassen and before we came Pam pulled up 13 family members that are participate in the INT throughout the State that live here in Chanhassen and we've read some letters here and concerns of activities that have happened in last year's tournament and it's unfortunate that we have to read letters like this and it's not brought forward to Pam or myself that there were these incidents that happened. I participate not only in INT but Minnesota Water Ski Association, Barefoot International. We have 20 tournaments throughout the state and quite frankly I haven't come up against this before. Especially with boat owners. Usually they're in support of family gatherings like this but obviously we have some things to go through with a few of these incidences that happened. I actually was on a radio with a couple of them and we've been out of town for a week but we actually wanted to have quite a few of our members here to come up and speak that happen to be in the boats. But I guess you guys might have some questions for us but it's, Lake Susan, we like this. I mean we've got a dealership in Excelsior and we've always like the city of Chanhassen and Susan because it's close to home. And we have a lot of members in this area. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Most of our tournaments are on lakes the same size as Lake Susan. As a matter of fact the only one I think that we've mn throughout the whole state, whether it be INT, Minnesota Waterski Association or Barefoot is Madden's and that's one of our INT's on Gull Lake which is a very open lake and it's very difficult to mn a tournament on it but all the other lakes are 200 acres and less that we've mn tournaments. Whether it be INT or MWSA. For years. For the past 30 years. I've been at this 15 years and this is the first time I've ever been confronted by boat owners that have petitioned you know against us so I haven't had a chance to talk with these boat owners which I would love to. I would have loved to have talked to these customers, or not customers. They actually could be our customers, during the tournament. If they could have come over and confronted Pam, our State coordinator on it instead of coming here tonight and reading these letters so. Berg: Excuse my naivet& Big tournament? Lots of people? Pam Mueller: We average about a hundred people but that's both days. So it's probably about 50/50. Berg: This is maybe a stupid question, tell me if it is. Could the tournament be held on a Tuesday and Wednesday? Or during the week. Pam Mueller: No because it happens all day. I mean.., all day and afternoon and you know I've got a lot of volunteers who help us out and they all work during the week. You know so weekends are really the only time that we can do it. We're not locked into doing it the 8th and 9th of July. I mean you know we're flexible as far as, you know honestly the tournament last year was a nightmare for me too. I mean we spent the whole time with people going up and down, which I understand they're lake owners. I appreciate that but they truly set out to make it miserable for us too. I mean it's, they did. You could tell and I know at one point Jerry was there and he saw, they were going, I mean we went up to them and asked them and said you know, we tried to work with them numerous times and saying you know, take tums. Can we, because what happened was the tournament ended up going a whole lot longer than it should have because we had to give re-rides to people because they kept going up and down with the IO which caused huge wakes. I don't expect them not to be on the lake. They have every right to be on the lake, but I guess I felt like we could maybe work with each other and I felt like they just felt there was no way that they wanted to work with us. As far as not letting people go on the landing, I know there's no way we kept people from going in the landing because there's people going all day into the landing. And I'm right there at the computer right by the landing so I, you know that adds to being harassed. I know that a couple times we did go up and ask if there was something we could do. If we could work with them. You know to try to, you know because we wanted to be done too. I mean I want my tournament to be done. I don't want it to go on until, you know into the evening either. Berg: Is there, I haven't talked to anybody from the neighborhood. Is there anyway to work out a compromise to find a weekend that maybe would be less objectionable than one right in the middle of the summer? Let's brainstorm. 2 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Pam Mueller: Well yeah. I mean I'm willing to, you know definitely willing to work with them. Berg: My next question, and maybe it's in here. I didn't see it someplace. What's left of the lake when you're out there having your tournament? What's left for anyone else ifI want to take my little boat out there. Is it practical that I can even do that? Joe Mueller: Well I would say that you've got at least 180-200 feet off of the lakeshore of the, where's that. What side is that Jerry? The far side of the lake. That would be the south side of the lake. The unfortunate thing, and whether it be an INT tournament or an AWSA sanctioned tournament, is you know water movement is critical and especially slalom skiing. And so normally what we do at INT, or AWSA, if there's a conflict on the lake, we normally approach that conflict and try to work it out with that particular family or homeowner. Even whether. Berg: So a conflict is somebody, for example just with their pontoon going around or? Joe Mueller: No, not at all. I would say with like a larger IO that's got 2-3 inner tubes behind it and it's just constantly running around. It causes rollers and it's just a non-stop action. Where our tournament is just up, go through a course and drop. This action would be just circular motion which is constantly stirring up the water and throwing it into the shore. Most the time we can work with that. And it seemed that the few people that were out there that weren't willing to work with us. As a matter of fact it was right off the bat in the morning. I happened to be on the radio. There was a gentleman in an inboard, and this is what's hard for me to believe, is an inboard ski boat and we had the course set in ready for the tournament to start and the gentleman came over and asked if he could mn the course and of course we want to get the tournament started so we can finish and we have a life too to go home to, and it was told that he wanted to mn through it. And if he wasn't able to, he'd make the rest of the day miserable for us so we allowed him to go through the course, not wanting to have any hassles. It was told to him that the reason we don't let people go through it is because insurance reasons and also we don't want the course tom up because it takes time to repair it. So we let the person mn through it. He did pull up a few buoys. Took a little bit more time to get it back together but we allowed that to happen because we didn't want a conflict. And he was right. He didn't come back the rest of the day. He was perfectly happy with that mn and he went back to his home and that was the end of that. So we're willing to work with dates. The thing we I guess aren't willing to work with is you know if we've got residents on the lake that aren't willing to have it, I mean we want to work with those residents. We don't want to have a, we don't want to have a conflict out there. It isn't worth our effort, which is a lot of time to have a tournament out there if it is going to be mined. Pam Mueller: Well plus expense. I mean I do pay $250 a day you know, and I mean it was a nightmare last year and so I guess you know, I mean if they truly, absolutely don't want us there then I guess you know, I don't want to fight because if we go out there and they make it miserable for us, then it's not going to be any fun either so. Berg: It sounds a little bit like you've got a PR problem too. I mean if I'm a casual boater and I'm out there doing it and maybe I'm upsetting you for whatever but if someone in your tournament flipped me the bird, I'm going to be pretty upset too. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Pam Mueller: I'm not aware of any. Berg: And you can't be responsible for that either. Joe Mueller: And to be honest with you, we are aware and we've talked to quite a few people but you know there are 100, you know 50 some odd people in this tournament and you know we can't be responsible. Pam Mueller: The only thing I can think of is that maybe it was one of the competitors that was trying to make a mark and you know was getting the rollers. I mean that's all I can think of and I mean I can't, I mean I can certainly have a meeting with them before and talk to them and you know, we didn't know what we were going to be up against that so it was hard to have a meeting with my competitors before that when I didn't know that that's what I was up against. You know I know for a fact that none of my staff did it. Of my volunteers. I mean one of my volunteers is here and I know he talked to him too and I'd like him to talk. Joe Mueller: Actually Joe is our safety director. Pam Mueller: Yeah, he's responsible for making sure that everything is running safely. I mean if it happened, I'm truly sorry. The only thing I can think of is it would be one of the competitors who was upset because his run was, you know and obviously that's, you're right. That's something that we need to address before hand but in that tournament last year I didn't know that that was something that I was going to have to address. Berg: Just one other question. Would you be willing to, I think I know the answer to this. Have you, or would you be willing to sit down with the people that are concerned and try to work something out? Joe Mueller: Definitely. Berg: Some sort of compromise. Joe Mueller: That's in our best interest. Pam Mueller: Right. You know the thing about Chanhassen is that, I mean we live in Chaska and it's nice for us to be close to home. We have a lot of people that we know that come to the tournament and watch and like I said, I mean I've got a list of 13 you know people that are members oflNT that live in Chanhassen. You know we promote family fun. I mean that's, we have families who come out and you know, I know a lot of us have teenagers and to me that's why I'm in it. I've got teenagers and when you're growing up, there's a lot of things they don't want to do with you. My kids are there every weekend with me, helping me and Joe run the tournaments and it's, I mean it's.., and that's why I do it. I don't compete. I do it because I think it's important that teenagers have an outlet where they can go and have good, clean fun. 4 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Joe Mueller: You know the exciting thing about it, as I'm looking through these 13 names that Pam printed out on her mailing list, is we've got Ryan Andrus. Ryan and Janice is his mother. Andrus made it to the US Championships and they came down to South Carolina with us. He's a wake boarder. We've got Steve and Jens Smithtoon. If you're watching Channel 11 the other night. Jens had been skiing on Christmas for like 130 some odd days. They both made it to the US Championships. It was just a phenomenal. If everybody in this room could have been at the championships and see 850 competitors and see families get together and spend their vacations. That's what this is all about so of course we're willing to work with any individuals and dates, whatever it might take. And if it's not meant to be, then I guess it's not meant to be you know in Chanhassen but if we can do something to work it out we will. Lash: Okay, thanks. Is there anyone else who has a question? Okay. Moes: One is the timing. You go 8:30 to 4:00 on Saturday and 9:30 to 4:00 on Sunday. Is that straight through or do you take breaks in-between there? It's pretty much consistent competition throughout. Pam Mueller: Right. Joe Mueller: And there are times we could quit at 2:30. It depends on if we have to do re-rides. I mean it can be done as early as 2:00-2:30. It depends on how many competitors sign up. Pam Mueller: Yeah, I mean actually last year, like I said the reason it took us a little bit longer was because we did have to do a lot of re-rides because of the waves and, you know we do, I mean we can go and then wait a few. I felt like we could have worked with each other last year and made it work and still have gotten done. Howe: How late did it go last year? Pam Mueller: I want to say probably 3:30-4:00. But we could have been done, because competitor wise you know.., more crucial. I mean Sunday with the wake-boarders, the waves aren't that big of an issue because actually the bigger the, you know they like the big wake but the slalom skiing is where, on Saturday where it was more of an issue and that was the day that it ended up going longer because of the re-rides. Lash: Do you guys post signs or how do people, are people aware that this is going on? Outside people who are coming. Pam Mueller: Yes, and actually Chanhassen Bank is one of our sponsors. Kevin McShane actually sponsors the title to it. We have event guys that go out so they're mailed all over and then we put up posters. You know the pro shops and the boat shops have posters that are up and you know and promoting it and then also at the boat show then we hand out the fliers with the schedules because we actually have the people that will follow throughout the tournaments because you accumulate points through the season and then whoever's in first place goes onto the championship which is people from all over the United States. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Lash: How about at the park? So ifI showed up at the park I would know that there's some kind ofa. Pam Mueller: Yes. Oh yeah. We have banners. We put up a whole bunch of banners and we have you know, with INT, yeah so they do. But that's again, I mean we've had people come and picnic right with us that you know, I mean it's, we don't turn anybody away. You know I mean, and actually 9 times out of 10 they'll sit there and watch it anyway because it's fun to watch. Lash: Okay. Okay we'll open it up to the residents who are here tonight. A1 Klingelhulz: Good evening. Park and Rec Chair and members. I'm A1 Klingelhulz and I live at 8600 Great Plains Boulevard. On the south shore of Lake Susan. You know the first year when this tournament took place it didn't seem like much. There probably was 40 or 50 people on the north shore of Lake Susan. Maybe 10 or 12 or 15 competitive boats out there. The next year it got a little bigger and last year it was really large. They said 100 people but I'm willing to wager at any one time there probably was 150 people standing on the shore. I've been pretty open about park space. I was involved in Lake Ann Park. I was involved in Bandimere Park. I was very involved in letting a public approach come onto Lake Susan. I really think the lakes should be made available to a lot of the residents of Chanhassen. We lakeshore owners on the lake pay probably 1/3 higher taxes because we are on the lake, and probably any of you that live on a lake know that your taxes are somewhat higher. You get assessed by the front footage. I think the thing that concerns me more than anything is the fact that last year prior to the tournament, at least 6 weeks prior to the tournament, from 5:00 to dark they had their buoys out there and were practicing at least 4 or 5 nights a week. It isn't only a lwo day tournament. It's a practice tournament where people come that they know they're going to be on Lake Susan. They come there. They set out their buoys, just like they are for the tournament, and they continuously go back and forth. It isn't only one boat. Five boats one night last week was out, or last spring. I was out with my pontoon and they came awful close to my shore and I yelled at one of them and he said, hey I've got just as much right on this lake as you have. I said yes you have but I says, it seems odd that you should be out here every night practicing and not letting any of the residents on Lake Susan have a quiet evening on the lake so they can fish. Now when you've got a pontoon and you get these waves from these big boats, I've got lwo anchors on it and they're pretty heavy and yes, I can hold it where I want to hold it on the lake. It's just, the waves just kind of keep of rolling along. And that is my biggest concern. Lake Susan is a 90 acre lake. DNR spent quite a lot of money sealing the bottom on it. You get these big boats on there constantly and they keep stirring it up. In the morning you go down there the water's pretty clear. You can see the bottom of the lake in 3, 4, 5 feet of water. But you go down there at 8:30 at night after all these speed boats are on there, you don't see the bottom of the lake in a foot of water. Now you can't tell me that boats don't turn up the lake. It has a big effect, especially on a small lake like Lake Susan. It wasn't only when the lake was down, which it is right now. But last summer we had a lot of high water on the lake. In fact it was up onto the lakeshore. And these boats were out there within 150 feet of the lakeshore going with their big boats back and forth. On their ski run. They go through the run. Come back and there was a lot of wave action. A lot of good black soil from the shoreline went directly into the lake. I can't quite see what 6 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 happened, especially last year, with all the practice. They didn't even stop after the tournament. They continued to come after the tournament and use that lake and it was just the prime time when people were home from work that the residents themselves use the lake. To me it's putting much too heavy a burden on the lake the size of Lake Susan. Thank you. If you have any questions, I'd like to try to answer them for you. Lash: Thanks Al. Any questions for Al? Franks: Al, what's the most important negative about the tournament to you? A1 Klingelhulz: Well I think the most important negative is the practice runs that are done 6 weeks prior to the tournament, pretty near every night. And the people on the lake who would like to enjoy the lake a little bit, and some of the Chanhassen residents who come out there to fish would like to go out there and fish, it's very disturbing to see all those waves rocking your pontoon or boat around. If the tournament only was the one or two days, I don't think you'd have many objections but the length of the time and people want to win tournaments. And they know it's going to be held on Lake Susan. What do the people that play ball? They go and practice every night of the week. Or a basketball team. The kid goes 3, 4 nights a week to practice basketball. It's the same thing with this tournament. They're out there with their boats, they set up their buoys and practice and there isn't only 2 boats on the lake, there's 4 or 5 on the lake at the same time. So that's one of my biggest concerns. Thank you. Lash: I guess I'd be, I'd like to kind of hook on Rod's question. I mean do you really feel that if the tournament wasn't there that all of a sudden all the skiers and slalom people would just not come to Lake Susan anymore? A1 Klingelhulz: Well, it seemed that after the tournament started there is when we really got the slalom skiers on the lake. I think they like the lake because there's high banks all the way around it. There isn't too many waves around the lake. Even if it's windy out. The lake is a pretty protected lake from the wind and I understand that's one of the things that the skiers on these slalom courses really like. The quiet lake. And Lake Susan is a fairly quiet lake until the boats get on it and then they provide a lot of wake. I put some rock on my lakeshore and they didn't have quite enough and last week one day I hauled in some rock. My son hauled some in from the field again. I figure well I'm going to finish this little area here. And actually the shoreline had receded over 2 feet from where I had placed the rocks and where they weren't. So you know we've got some problems with wakes on Lake Susan too. Moes: What I'm hearing is that skiers.., are setting up a system. A1 Klingelhulz: Very few boats are ever out there with buoys on a lake doing the slalom course or whatever they call it, but every year since the tournament started, they're coming out earlier and earlier and more and more to practice on Lake Susan so that they can be very competitive in the tournament. Moes: And are they bringing the buoy system with them? 7 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 A1 Klingelhulz: They're bringing the buoy systems in. Moes: Is that something that they can bring a buoy system on... slalom course on the lakes? I'm not sure what the guidelines are. Ruegemer: I'm not exactly positive what the guidelines are either but it's my understanding that if it's a temporary type of a use, you can bring that in and put those in. As long as you don't have them all the time. Moes: So like for the tournament they needed to get approval from other. Ruegemer: Carver County. Moes: Carver County... and in this environment when they're doing it... Gene Klein: Hi, my name is Gene Klein. I live at 8412 Great Plains Boulevard. I'm on the southeast end of the lake, down from Al. I was out on the lake last year and was confronted by some of the people on the lake. I'll give you my side of the story of kind of what happened. I probably didn't hit the lake until late afternoon because I had a baseball tournament that morning with the kids. We came home. It was a 90 degree hot day. Went out to use the lake and I grew up on the lake and I hear Al's frustration is, it's a public access on the lake now and every year there's more and more boats. But what seemed to happen is, they rented the pavilion to use as their headquarters there but they also tried to use the lake as their own. They were very, we had some people that were at the baseball tournament with us that came, were going to drop their boat on the lake. They had my daughter with them and they were going to come across and we were going to spend the afternoon on the lake. I had approximately 6 kids with me and they were bringing 3 or 4 more with them. While I was out on the lake before these other people came and I was confronted by the people on the lake, one of the safety boats and asked to stay 100 feet away and I said I would do my best. I said it is a small lake. It's a 93 acre lake. The way they have the course set up, they utilize half the lake. Okay, that cuts it down to a 45 acre lake. On the east, southeast side of the lake it's very shallow. You have to stay out a good 100-150 feet to maintain a depth for any size boat, which now makes it a very, very small lake. You're working in a very small eye. So I did as they asked. I stayed 100 feet away from their buoys. Ran back around and I was confronted a second time and asked how long I was going to be out there. And I said you know I'll probably be all afternoon. I says we have people coming over and they asked well you know can we take tums. I says well yeah, that's really not an option. I said I had a boat full of kids waiting. We had plans too and we wanted to use the lake. I says we're doing our best. We're staying away from you. I'm doing the best I can do. You know I says it's, it was not an option as far as I was concerned. So we continued on. A third time I was approached by all the boats and asked ifI could just do a straight line back and forth and stay way to my side of the lake. And by this time I had talked to a couple of the different neighbors that were out there and one of the neighbors had been told he should not be able to put his boat on. Told him to go to a different lake. The boat that was bringing my daughter over came over and they were told the same thing. They were told to go to a different lake. That they could not be put on the boat. 8 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Lake Susan has a public access. That means it's a public lake. If they want to have a tournament, I recommend. I don't mind the tournament but I recommend they do like you say, pick an earlier weekend. I think other years it's been a lot colder. I mean this fall, spring would be better. But if you have it in the middle of the summer when it's warm out, that boat on any given day is going to have 5 to 10 boats, the lake is going to have 5 to 10 boats on it. There's approximately 10 power boats from people that live right on the lake. I would love to go out there and not have anybody bothering me also. I like to fish like A1 does. I like to use the lake for skiing and tubing, but I think what they're trying to say is they want nobody else out on the lake and that's just not realistic on this size of a lake. That's all I have. Lash: Anybody have a question for Gene? Okay, thanks. Jim Jacoby: Hi, my name's Jim Jacoby. I'm 8410 Great Plains Boulevard and what Gene has indicated is what I heard too. Now I wasn't around Saturday at all so I don't know what happened but Sunday I was out later in the day and at the end of the day I was, somebody had to come over and make a nice comment to say thanks for wrecking our tournament when I hadn't even been out there all weekend and so that was not, I didn't appreciate that and I heard the same thing from the other neighbors. I just want to reiterate everything Gene and A1 had said is consistent with what I've heard from the neighbors and what I also saw. Any questions? Lash: Thanks Jim. Anyone else? Joe Brandenberg: My name's Joe Brandenberg. I live in Eden Prairie and have been a part of the tournament since the inception and just after listening to everything I just had a couple of comments. One, I can appreciate the concern of the homeowners. I used to live on Lake Johanna in Arden Hills for a number of years and was the Waterfront Director in Northwest College there and we had a slalom course. I was on the homeowners board at the same time representing a homeowner and as the waterfront director for the college. And we taught sailing and canoeing and water-skiing professionally and so I dealt with a lot of difl'erent issues and had a good rapport with the homeowners on the lake. A lot of that being because we, the lake was a safer place because we were out there all the time. I was two years ago State Tournament Safety Director and I was the boat who putted over I think the second time when the one gentleman said and I went over and said can we, you know wait or how long will you be out here. We had I think at that point 3 or 4 skiers left and my concern was when you're slalom skiing, if you hit big waves the potential for serious injury is very great to the skiers because it throws you off your skiing so that was my main concern. With the deal. As far as the practice and all that. Those people may or may not have had anything to do with the tournament and one thing with the economy being good is that on any lake that I've been on, including the one I lived on, there are more fishing boats. There are more personal watercraft. There are more ski boats. There are more inboard outboards and boating is growing and it's becoming a more popular sport and skiing is growing and becoming a more popular sport. So I'm not sure that that's unique to this lake. I think it's a challenge that's being faced all around the Twin Cities area. So I'm not aware of anyone at any of our tournaments. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened but I'm not aware of anyone ever trying to control the public boat launches. There's only one tournament that we have that's not at a public site. All the others are and so there is a real effort to try to work with the people there. 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 And as far as people being flipped off or anything like that. Having been the waterfront director at the college I had employees and I hope nobody ever there ever did anything like that. I never heard about anything like that but the best effort I could do in training, you still can't control what everybody's going to do and if that happened, that's unfortunate. If there were bad attitudes expressed toward people, I think that's unfortunate as well. You know either direction but I guess my thoughts, as I sit and listen to this is, I'm pretty, you know I understand the concerns as far as being a homeowner on the lake. I also understand from the tournament point of view and to me it really comes down to I guess what the City wants to do. As far as the erosion, that really, you know some lakes in the Twin Cities area have been closed to boats, anything over 5 horsepower or 10 horsepower, that kind of thing. There's at least one in Eden Prairie that way. So really I guess you know it's going to be a challenge in years to come unless the economy gets really bad and people can't afford boat gas anymore. But so, I guess I'd just like to see the best thing happen for everybody involved, whatever that is and I know Joe and Pam are, if it's not going to be a site that would be compatible with having a tournament, then they're open to looking somewhere else. You know but if it can be worked out, I know they're open to that too so. I hope it can all be worked out so it's good for everybody. So if you have any questions. Berg: It sounds like you've had lots of experience in working with neighbors as well as with boaters. I'm not saying not necessarily right now but that you can think of that might, in terms of meeting with these neighbors and addressing the concerns. Do you think there's any reasonable hope that anything could be worked out? Joe Brandenberg: Well I think there is, sure. I always think that's possible. And I think probably they, you know there's some legitimate concerns that are being expressed so I understand that and I think you know, if a meeting could take place or it could be talked out in a happy medium of some sort could be reached, that would be great. But certain things, you know they live on the lake. They do pay higher taxes. I know that. You know they want to be out there to use the lake. And for a tournament to take place certain things have to happen too and if the two can't coexist, then they just need to go in two different directions. I can't speak for the homeowners because I don't know what their individual feelings are but I would sure like to see that as an option before it's you know just dismissed but it's your city so you need to decide what's best for city and for the people that live there. Lash: Okay, thanks. Is there anyone else in the audience wishing to address the commission? Okay, seeing no other comments we'll close public comments and go to the commission. We'll open it down there with you Mike. Howe: Thank you. Lash: You're welcome. Howe: I just really would build on what Fred said. I mean I think both sides here are reasonable people. You both have a right to use the lake. As far as erosion and shoreline, my thinking on that was that's a DNR issue. I don't think we or even the City Council can really dictate no wake zones and such like that but it seems to me there are two options here. One is to change the date, 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 and I realize that maybe the July 8th and 9th, that's the first big weekend after Independence Day. That's a big family time. Maybe there's a date that's better suited when the lake wouldn't be quite as used. Just a thought. Second thing. I think Fred's right. Both sides, you need to sit down and talk. I mean your reasonable people. Here's what you can expect from us. One side usually you can expect from us. The other side and work it out. I think it can be worked out. I don't think, you know that would be the next step in my mind. I don't have an answer. That's all I have. Lash: Thanks Mike. Moes: I think Mike did a good job of summarizing.., for the groups to get together and.., dates, then work on the dates. Scheduling throughout there within the date. Taking breaks. Whatever is appropriate. There's a lot of options available. Lash: Rod. Franks: I've enjoyed the tournament.., walked around the lake and sit down and watch, but I've also been bothered A1 by the boat noise in the evening as well. It makes it all the way into our neighborhood in Chanhassen Hills so that's also been a little bit of a bother to me. I know people organizing the tournament, you probably don't have control of that. I had the same question. It might be something worth checking into is a permit required to set down a buoy course. That might be one way to control that type of activity in that case. I haven't heard anything today that seems like an insurmountable conflict. It appears to me that we do have people with some kind of competing interests but these interests I don't think need to happen to the exclusion of the other. I think it's certainly a situation where people are capable of finding some way to work together for the benefit of boat. Everyone represented here is interested in the same sport, just wanting to do it at the same time, same place, different way and since we all have a similar interest in boating, I think there's certainly a place here to sit down and make some arrangement where maybe not everybody's completely satisfied but at least all of your needs, or most of your needs are being met. One of the things that strikes me too for the INT applicant is to make sure that everyone has all the information significantly ahead of time and that may be... last year that not everybody got that information when planning gatherings and events. That can be real frustrating. But if you had knowledge ahead of time what's going to be on the lake and you of course can also make appropriate plans as well. Jan, I'm not sure if we can make some kind of recommendation to have them meet... What would the structure be? Jerry? Lash: Here would be my first choice. Berg: Let's see who isn't here. Todd. Lash: I guess I would think we certainly could do that and I would suggest some type of an agreement between all these parties before we would even make a motion. Franks: So it's not necessary for us to make a definitive motion this? 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Lash: ...table it based on... Franks: Can I ask a question of the tournament organizers? Lash: Sure. Franks: When would be the date that you would need a definite date so you could handle your advertisement? Pam Mueller's comments were not picked up on the tape. Lash: That would be for sure the latest you could go? Pam Mueller: Right... Actually the Boat Show... Franks: So what date would you need? Pam Mueller: ... Lash: So that gives us a month. Okay. Moes: Don't we meet the 14th of December? Lash: ... Franks: By the 14th have the meeting and then we can take action on the 14th. That's all. Lash: Okay. Yeah, well clearly there's you know some problems and I agree with all the other comments that I think these certainly could be worked out to everyone's satisfaction. I think that given the lake, given the conditions and given the economy and everything that was said, I think you're going to have boaters and tubers there all the time, whether the toumament's going on or not. Because if they're continuing to ski after the tournament, they're not practicing for the tournament anymore. They're just having fun and they're bettering their skills so I don't know that pulling the plug on the tournament is going to cut down that much on the traffic that you're experiencing. I think probably every lake homeowners is experiencing that frustration right now but I think too that this needs to be worked out and I think it can be worked out. I have a question also for Pam or Joe. Do most of the participants wear, you know wet suits and things like that that help them stay warm? Skiing and boarding or. Pam Mueller: Yes. I mean there are... Lash: But you could have it in June, couldn't you? Pam Mueller: Oh definitely. 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Lash: I mean I'm not talking about February you know but. No, no, no. No, but I mean you know a lot of times, the first couple weeks of June a lot of times there's, or later in the season a lot of people aren't as enthusiastic about the lake sports anymore. I know the attendance at Lake Ann goes way down in August just because people get kind of tired of some of those things. But I think July probably really would be a problem because that is just the peak month, especially that weekend because it's when everybody's on vacation and with the 4th and everything so I would definitely want you to reconsider the date and look at something that's, you know if you're wearing protective clothing anyway, the water temperature isn't going to be a huge factor to you where it will be for all the other little kids who want to go out and tube and that kind of thing. Pam Mueller: In the past we've had it you know more towards... Lash: I think looking at different dates would probably go a long way with the neighbors and I would strongly encourage a letter. If you guys want to make it and have the city send it or if you want to have Jerry try to come up with something, letting all the lake residents know this is the weekend that this tournament is going to be going on. These are the kinds of things that you can expect. If you have any difficulty with anyone please look for Pam or Joe Mueller. They'll have on the bright yellow hat or whatever you want to do so that they know who they can go and talk to directly if they have a problem and say you certainly would want to work through any of this. You know you want to try and have a successful thing and you know. You know what I'm talking about. But I think if people know ahead of time, that may help and then the date may help... Pam Mueller: ... Ruegemer: There was in the initial permit. Berg: It sounds like they need a lot more than dates though. Lash: You know this is what they can expect and I definitely think you know if they know that you're trying to make an effort to make sure that problems don't happen and who to talk to too. If someone, and you can't control everyone's behavior and we know that but people who are out there are going to...that's all there is to it and at least if they know who they can go and you know vent to, it makes them feel like they have a little more control over the situation so. If it's a shot at trying to solve the whole thing. Fred, you got anything? Berg: Just a couple questions. Do you have any control over the people who practice 5 or 6 weeks ahead of time? Pam Mueller: You know what, I guess I'd... As far as I know, I don't... Joe Mueller: Quite honestly, Lake Susan... Berg: It sounds like Lake Susan has been discovered. 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Pam Mueller: Well you have to realize that with the amount of boats... Berg: One other thought, I don't know if they're all workable in terms of compromises and working things out with the neighbors and how it would work into your schedules. Maybe opening up the course to the people around the lake. Let them mn it once or twice might be something they would enjoy too. Pam Mueller: ... Berg: Okay, that's all. Lash: Okay, thanks. Jay. Karlovich: Before I make a comment, Jerry I just want to ask you one question. How many residents approximately are there on Lake Susan? Ruegemer: I don't know that for a fact. I don't know how many are on. Karlovich: 100 or? Maybe the residents... Ruegemer: These were 500 feet. The 500 foot notification. Karlovich: The comment I want to make to Gene, A1 and Jim is first of all, I'm a Park and Recreation Commission member. I was appointed by the City Council and we're supposed to be champions of recreation. This has to go in front of the City Council however. I think we're going to have to vote for the recreational portion of this. We have a recommendation from our staff member to approve it but if I was the City Council member and I had a petition from 18, 20 or even a majority of the people that lived on the lake that didn't want the tournament to go, I think the City Council is the body that's elected by you. They're not a commission that's appointed by the City Council to champion the parks and the recreation. I think that if you don't want to work things out or things can't be worked out, and you do have the support of the people that live on the lake, I just think if I was the Mayor or any of the council members, I would want to see a petition and I would want to see what people who elected me and put me into office want done here. We have a letter in the file here from Lawrence Harris and he isn't totally against it. He just wants like the parties to work together but the one thing that I guess I would encourage you is that just for the City Council's benefit to, you know there are three of you here tonight and you're in front of a park and recreation commission where we're supposed to champion parks and recreation. I guess ifI was up here, if there is a lot of negative support for this program that I at least would give some input to the City Council. That's the only statement that I have. Lash: One quick question. When will the City Council meet in December? Ruegemer: I keep them upstairs with the dates. They're probably early... Lash: Don't they meet every other Monday? 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Ruegemer: With work sessions, every Monday with the work sessions. Lash: So chances are they would meet... Ruegemer: I could go upstairs and get the meeting schedule. Lash: We really should know that before we go much further. Is there anybody else who needs to say anything or is there someone who's ready for a motion? A1 Klingelhulz: One question? Lash: Sure Al. A1 Klingelhulz: ... neighbors together... Lash: That's what we're going to figure out. We need to find out when City Council's going to meet because if it has to come back to us and then go to City Council, we've got to make sure that they're going to be meeting at a time after our, and we meet on the 14th of December so we would want you guys to be able to have time to meet, come to some kind of an agreement, or not, whatever, so we can act on it on the 14th and it can go to the City Council at their next meeting. That's what we need to find out what their schedule is. A1 Klingelhulz: ... Berg: Well I think we're letting both sides down if we don't at least try to do. I don't think there's any harm in attempting to see if we can work out a compromise. If it can't be done, it can't be done. But I'd like to make it more than one vote. I'd like to at least know that all avenues were explored before we do that. Lash: And that's why we think, I personally I think the first thing you guys would have to do is come up with a date that is agreeable to everyone. Berg: Maybe that's where the compromise lies. And that's I think should be a relatively easy thing for both sides to sit down and discuss. Audience: ... Lash: Okay, Jerry's what's the time schedule? Ruegemer: The next Council meeting is the 13th. Work session is the 20th. (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Lash: That would be enough time for you wouldn't it Pam? Okay. So now we've got a time frame to work with here. Everyone's been thinking about how to make this motion. Who's ready to do that? Berg: Well I'd move that we table this item until our December 14th meeting when we can have input again as to what happened after a meeting of the interested parties. Lash: Okay. Berg: I move that staff at least facilitate getting the two sides together. Lash: Is there a second to that motion? Howe: I'll second that. Berg moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table action on the request for a Public Gathering Permit for a INT Water Skiing Tournament on Lake Susan and direct staff to facilitate a meeting between the interested parties before the Park and Recreation Commission meeting on December 14, 1999. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. USE OF NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS FOR YOUTH ATHLETICS IN 2000. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Lash. We had discussed this item previously at a previous commission meeting earlier. At a meeting last spring before the season got started. At that time the commission wanted to take a look at with the new community parks coming on line with the redevelopment of City Center Park and Bandimere Community Park, wanted to address the issue at that time. To look at eliminating the use of neighborhood parks and my recollection was that Meadow Green Park, North Lotus, Carver Beach and Rice Marsh Parks. At this time I would like to discuss that with the commission. We all, with the commission and staff have been waiting a long time for Bandimere and City Center to be developed and redeveloped. At this time it looks like they are going to be ready to go by spring of 2000 which is great. And they will help us out tremendously. We're adding additional soccer fields and baseball, softball fields which will certainly be welcomed by the commission. Or by the Athletic Associations in town and that serve our residents. At this time I do believe that even with the newly developed facilities, we are growing tremendously across all the associations, anywhere from 10% to 20% a year for soccer, baseball, that type of thing. I really think that we would be doing ourselves a disservice to totally eliminate the use of these areas. With the development of the parks, our newly developed parks, it certainly will help take some pressure off these areas. That certainly is what I would like to propose at this time is that we take a look at scheduling for the year 2000 and we take a look at and work with the athletic associations to limit the use of these. I know the CAA for example at Rice Marsh has really tried to downsize their activities out at that park in the last couple of years. And I know that they were down there at least 1 to 2 days a week there. So they really are trying to make a really concerted effort to minimize play and really be less disruptive to the neighborhood and to the park itself down there. I do, I am recommending that we do take a look 16 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 at these sites and adopt kind of the guidelines listed below as kind of a schedule and kind of an allotment so to speak between the associations. Number of days per week. And we not totally eliminate play. I think we'd really have a hard time in the future to get back into those parks. I know the neighborhoods are used to having organized play in this area and I think if we eliminate these we really would be, we're not gaining anything by adding new facilities. We're just basically staying even or going backwards eventually. But we can certainly look at to schedule these and I know that the associations are really going to take a look at what their numbers are this coming year and in the upcoming years after that. Really look at demand. If there is no demand, or if we can do other creative scheduling efforts up here at City Center, Bandimere and some of the other types of non-neighborhood park areas, we certainly will do that to eliminate as much as we can at these neighborhood areas. Really to be friendly with the neighborhoods and to not schedule those types of activities or games. So really, and I know Frank and Larry... is here with the Chan-Chaska Soccer Club....here with the Chanhassen Athletic Association. They have been very cooperative in trying to look at alternative types of options in scheduling so we are sensitive and we are working towards looking at creative ways to be less disruptive to the neighborhood. So at this time I am recommending that the Park and Rec Commission allow organized activities, athletic play at Meadow Green, North Lotus, Carver Beach, Rice Marsh. It is also recommended that organized play be limited to the number of dates listed, it'd actually be below on this. The next page according to that table. Lash: Okay, anybody have a question for Jerry? Moes: Jerry, for example out at Meadow Green is 4 days per week. 2 days for soccer and 2 days for baseball. On a 7 day, how does the 4 days per week get to that? Ruegemer: Basically Monday through Thursday. Moes: Okay, so that's what the recommendation is? Howe: Do we get a lot of complaints? Do we get complaints from people using the parks or not? Ruegemer: I don't personally receive a lot of complaints. I know in the past some limited facilities we have done two activities at one time and that we're working to eliminate that. So soccer and baseball will probably be playing on a different night. So you potentially you know, eliminate some of those cars and.., that type of thing. Moes: Of the parks listed, how much activity is going on now? Within them I guess over the week. Ruegemer: These areas, there isn't really anything scheduled as far as weekends. You know that doesn't mean that there isn't an activity going on. You may take your soccer team up to Meadow Green or you might take your soccer team up to North Lotus on an unofficial type of basis and have a practice. We don't have control of that. We obviously don't encourage that. I mean we 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 can't control it. It's kind of like controlling water skiers on Lake Susan. People have their own objectives and what they need to do so. Berg: Except for Rice Marsh really is sort of a unique parks. They're really not neighborhood parks. They're really not a community park. Ruegemer: Right. Somewhere in-between. Berg: Yeah, and I think the implication is going to be that they'll always be available for softball and soccer games... What's the uses now? Typically at Meadow Green, what would the uses be last summer? Ruegemer: Monday through Friday. Berg: You're proposing cutting out a day. Ruegemer: Cutting back one day and then also eliminating two activities at one time. Lash: How about Carver Beach? Ruegemer: ... Lash: So essentially Meadow Green was really 7 days a week. Saturday and Sunday and... Karlovich: One of the comments I have to make is, is this neighborhood disruption really a problem or not Jerry? Or are we getting lots of complaints or? My opinion is what good is a park if it's not being used and the other thing is, if we make a motion that limits these fields, I think we're kind of taking our discretion away from the city staflk I don't even know if we should be micro managing this and just deferring to the city staff to use their best discretion to regulate the use of the parks. Franks: I was thinking along the same lines. Both in that I think that neighborhood parks.., and I think of Rice Marsh down in that, down in the hole and you know the cars park everywhere. Then there's Chan Hills is a much nicer field and find a place to park. I'm wondering if there's any way to spread it around... I don't know Frank... Frank Scott: ... Ruegemer: ... Sunset Ridge. You know new development. Lash: That one has potential. Franks: That's the other one. Ruegemer: The parking lot is in as part of that development. 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Franks: Well I guess my thinking was Jerry... so if each neighborhood worries about impact, if the neighborhood only has to put up with one night a weekend instead of one neighborhood having to, I mean that might make it easier for everybody all around... I'm also in agreement with Jay saying the same thing. Do we want to be in such a specific motion or make more of a generalized motion about it would be our intent as a commission to minimize impact as much scheduling allowed in parks... Something along those types of lines to really give, because we're not really sure exactly what the demand is going to be and how it will increase. Lash: Frank, Frank. Wait, wait, wait, wait. You're going to have to come up here because I'm afraid you're not going to be getting picked up on the tapes. Frank Scott: The doubling up we did was we would have two games on a single park in a night. We'd rather not do that even with the little ones. We'd like to have it so that they could have a practice period before the game because they learn a lot more in practice but of course they want the game in there. So like out front here we would have one at 6:30 and then another one at 7:30 or 6:00 and 7:00. We would like to just be able to do one game a night on a field and then the people could stay longer if they chose to or not. They could come earlier and kind of be a lot more flexible. And we did that up through 8 year olds last year. We actually would have two games on a single field. So we were crunched last year a little bit and it would be nice if we could open that up. Have you got any questions I could answer for you? Lash: I just, I have one comment and that's about Rice Marsh. And that has been one of my goals for years is to get the organized sports out of there. And none of you, with the exception of Fred, probably has had to deal with what it's like down at Rice Marsh Lake because your kids have gotten into this yet. But I have kids in CAA and Rice Marsh Lake, getting in and out of was a traffic nightmare. It's the end of a little cul-de-sac. Totally inadequate parking. Totally inadequate and when you've got two teams down there and you've got sometimes two parents each driving a car because somebody's got to come late, and somebody's got to leave early to take somebody else somewhere and you didn't get off work, it's just a parking nightmare and it's got to be a nightmare for the residents so that was one of my main motivations for even having this referendum was to be able to get organized sports out of Rice Marsh Lake because I think that's a horrible situation. So the very most I'd want to see anyone have to put up with that is one night a week. Whether you're going as a participant or you're living there. So I just as soon just pull it totally out of Rice Marsh Lake but I think Sunset Ridge would have much better parking situation. And I'm not sure where else. We could look at it but I would agree that if we share the joy, share the wealth and spread it around probably CAA will be happier. You'll have more flexibility and the residents, plus we are utilizing the parks to the best capacity for getting active play time in each one. Franks: In seeing the weeds pop up in that nice infield on Chanhassen Hills just bothers me. Lash: What's the parking like there though? Franks: About four stalls. 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Lash: Yeah see it's just. Ruegemer: I think it's 10. Is it 107 Franks: Oh it's 10. Thatbig? Ruegemer: I think it's a little bit more than 6 but it's not huge by any means. Franks: Speed is right there as well. Lash: I mean you can easily estimate 20 cars, right? Frank Scott: When you look at Carver Beach, they usually, there's probably about 20 cars up there. That's probably true. Lash: So pretty soon they're parking all over and it is an infringement that it really wasn't intended. Franks: Right. But I mean why should... Frank Scott: If we had one game a night, then we wouldn't have the problem of second game coming and trying to find a place to park while the first game's still there. So that would certainly alleviate a lot of that problem. Moes: I guess what I'm hearing is that, having the ability to spread the activity out over the different parks allows the... On the one side it's, hopefully it's a benefit to the neighborhood... two groups of cars... On the second side, it provides a benefit for the participants as well because a lot of them are thrown into a game... Lash: Would this have an affect Jerry... maintaining the parks or having? Ruegemer: Not this. Franks: Would it be more dealing with... Ruegemer: Initially I'm sure. I mean right now at Sunset Ridge, Chan Hills aren't officially. There's practices happening right now that I know of. If there's organized type activities, you certainly run the risk of receiving a few letters and calls but we put up with that every year so I mean it's not that big of a thing. Karlovich: If you want to let Rice Marsh, I think you should, we can do that. Otherwise we should just limit our micro management and let Jerry handle it. 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Berg: I would agree with that very strongly. I agree with Jan too on Rice Marsh. I've gone to a number of games and parked three blocks away. I'm not objecting to the walk, I'm objecting to the use of the neighborhood. Rice Marsh is unique. I'm a little uncomfortable with all of a sudden we're going to have organized sports in neighborhood parks. We've had a pretty set philosophy on this commission that we don't do that. I'm hearing a lot of well, we're going to get letters and complaints and we'll deal with that but why do we want to put ourselves in a position where we're getting letters and complaints and calls and concerns. I guess I'd like to discuss it more fully I guess. This is a pretty big shift in our philosophy. Moes: Maybe I'm confused then.., we're having organized sports at these facilities today, aren't we? Lash: Just these. Moes: ... Berg: Well I'm hearing we're going to Sunset Ridge. Looking at Sunset Ridge and Chanhassen Hills. Karlovich: I'm seeing these as. Berg: The other three on this list is again I think fairly unique and they're very large, wide open spaces that people I think have come to expect there's going to be CAA or organized activities there. I'm not so sure that we aren't going to get a lot of complaints from the neighbors when we start filling their streets with cars for even one game. Lash: Sunset Ridge has very ample parking... Berg: That I can understand and I'd be willing to look at that because I think it goes into that... I thought with City Center and Bandimere we were going to be relieving ourselves a little bit of pressure so we didn't have to use the neighborhood parks. IfI were older I think I'd be reminded of that. Whether that came.., why we originally were against having organized sports in these smaller parks. At least talk that through again. Karlovich: See I'm new to the commission. I'm not aware of this philosophy or any of the problems in the past or even the promises that have been made by you. As a new member, we didn't want to live by the park or I'd buy the house next to the park... Berg: I don't see that as the issue. I see the issue as it is a neighborhood park and I think they have the right to expect that there aren't going to be cars coming and going in front of your house. Lash: And that precedence too. 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Berg: From outside of the neighborhood. See if it's in the neighborhood it's one thing. But if you come from my neighborhood to yours to play ball, then I would see that as being something I wasn't bargaining for. Lash: ... when it happened, whether you live there and bought the house by a park or not, you'd still be... 40 people were stomping through the back of your yard. Moes: Along those lines, I do know from past experience.., a think a really good, excellent job of grouping teams together based on... Lash: Do you guys do that? Not when my kids were in but. Moes: If half the team, if not more....class at school. Maybe that's the next step forward but they are. Berg: Yeah, that's new. Moes: Local facilities... I commend you for that. Franks: ... it's one of those policies that I always questioned from a personal perspective. And I guess I would be... park is sitting idle.., then I would, instead of creating a hardship for participants or residents of other parts of the city, really look... Berg: It seems like we have a bit of an... knowing what the impact of City Center especially is going to be. In terms of relieving pressure from others. Frank Scott: You've got to realize though that really City Center used to have three fields on it so you now have added one additional field to City Center. It's not a big upgrade. We had three for years and years and then we had the two out in front here we had to use when this was closed up so by giving me one up there, you're really, I broke even now. And if you take Carver Beach away and the other ones, what you gave me at Bandimere isn't going to, is not a plus so basically we don't have many more parks. They're better parks. They're nicer looking parks but space wise, it's about a break even and has been. Berg: That's why I would support too.., in my mind plug in more at Carver Beach. Which again is one of those that is a neighborhood community park. Howe: Should we take out Rice Marsh? You have Sunset Ridge? Lash: I think Sunset Ridge would be much more conducive to that kind of activity than Rice Marsh. Frank Scott: Let me say if you'd rather not cause a controversy of pulling one off and putting another one on, if you wanted to generalize. He could tell me, use Rice Marsh as your last resort 22 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 and I would certainly do that so rather than define something, maybe it's easier just to say let him handle it and not use Rice Marsh except if you have to or something like that. Franks: I guess my feeling is that if we move it from Rice Marsh, and you get into a crunch and find you have to move back.., creating more problems then actually using... Maybe start out at Sunset Ridge and then transition it over to Sunset. Lash: And if you just used Rice Marsh as a practice. That's only team going down instead of two teams. You could park with one team. Larry Dom: One of the, ifI can interrupt. One of the things we have been doing over the last couple years. Frank Scott: Do you want to state your name and address for the record. Larry Dom: Oh, my name is Larry Dom. I live in 16 Warner Circle in Chaska. I represent the Chan-Chaska Soccer Club as Field Coordinator. One of the items we have been doing over the last couple of years with Jerry, he's been very instrumental in getting myself, the Chan-Chaska Club, CAA and also Tonka together for their youth athletics and coordinating what we've done. We've been sensitive, i.e. using Meadow Green one day a weekend last fall. Bandimere the other day a weekend, which now we realize we're losing that. That field. But I agree with Jay that if you let Jerry do the scheduling, he's relayed to us and we've policed our own people and I think for the last year it's worked pretty well and there has been a crunch with City Center gone and Bandimere not on line yet. And really that's what I have to say. Lash: The only problem that I have, I've got a couple problems. One is, not with your comments. I agree with your comments Fred. I think this is a philosophical shift for us. And a lot of the problems that I have is, I don't necessarily think that having organized sports in every park tells me that it's being utilized to it's fullest. I think as a commission we need to remember that some open spaces need to be passive. Some people want to go and enjoy quiet time. They want to go and get away from organized sports for a while so to put organized sports into every park... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Lash: ... and this has nothing to do with my trust level for Jerry, because I think, we all know that Jerry does a great job. I think having a policy gives him something, not only to use as a guideline but to say to people, you know hey. This is the policy. You know I can pass on your concern but here's the policy. Therefore it takes some of that pressure off of him when someone is not necessarily happy with a decision that he's being forced to make because we're afraid we're going to look like we're micro managing. I don't want to micro manage. I want to give him a level of comfort that he can do his job without having to take too many hits. So Jerry, you know you can kind of tell us if you think it's the kind of deal that you're not going to have problems. Or if you do have problems and you want to come back and say, I'm taking too much flack. I want a policy that I can fall back on. You know I'd be okay with that. 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Ruegemer: I mean I certainly feel comfortable working with the associations and with more of a general type of recommendation. I'm not afraid of getting phone calls. You know they have been very minimal since I've been here really in 9 1/2 plus years. I do feel comfortable with maybe Jan, I appreciate your comments, but I certainly am willing to, I don't know if take on is the word but to work through maybe.., use and maybe not have a concrete. If that's the way the commission would like to go, I certainly am, I mean Frank and Larry are, really hit it tonight. I mean we've all been working together. We've had a serious field issue and I think we're, I'm more than willing to work out a lot of the different issues so I think that'd be fine. Lash: I'd be happy enough to go with whatever you are comfortable with Jerry. I think after this season, when we've got all these new parks on line, it might be good for us to review this again and then maybe we would want to make it a policy.., so as numbers change we can always come back. Ruegemer: Yeah, I think with trying to maximize what we do have coming on line now, I think it will give us a truer picture after next summer. Spring and summer with that. We're really in a nice position right now with new facilities coming on line and really time for us to reassess and really to see where we're going to be in the future so. Lash: Okay, given that I think we still need a motion. Franks: I move that we direct staff to work with CAA and Chan-Chaska Soccer Club and the appropriate scheduling for soccer, baseball and softball and such scheduling in a way to minimize the impact of participation in neighborhoods. Especially in the neighborhood parks of Meadow Green, Carver Beach. Karlovich: Jan, do you want to add to that possibly that we give Jerry some direction to do everything in his power to reduce the amount of play at Rice Marsh Park? Ruegemer: A friendly you might want to include these mentioned organizations, and/or other organizations using our facilities. Lash: And I'd also like to add that we then get some type of a summary or report after the season next fall. Howe: This means or implies this is going to stay with the parks. We're not going to expand this to every neighborhood park in the city? Franks: Right. Lash: Okay. Are you clear Jerry? Ruegemer: Yeah, I'll get that and I'll get the formal recommendation from the Minutes too so. 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Lash: Is there a second to that? Franks moved and the motion was seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to work with the CAA, Chan-Chaska Soccer Club and/or all other organizations to allow for the scheduling of soccer, baseball and softball in such a way as to minimize the impact on Meadow Green, North Lotus, Carver Beach and Rice Marsh Parks. Also directing staff to prepare a summary of the field usage for the commission next fall. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. RECREATION PROGRAMS: 1999 TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY. Lash: We've got the lighting ceremony that Tracy has. Does anybody have a comment on that? Franks: Where's the tree coming from? Ruegemer: It came from Minnewashta Heights Park. Off of Highway 7. There was some reforestation out there and kind of a neighborhood project where trees were eliminated next to the Highway 7. So we just kept one of those up till yesterday and brought it back into town. On a flatbed. So it's up right now if you see it out in front. Augered in. 1999 HALLOWEEN PARTY EVALUATION. Lash: Okay, how about the Halloween Party evaluation. Anybody have comments that they want to pass onto Tracy about that? Howe: I thought it went well. All good ideas about spreading out the hallways. It wasn't as crowded at all. I could manage my candy distribution. Lash: I thought it was great. Did a good job. SELF SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: ADULT 3 ON 3 BAKETBALL UPDATE. Lash: Jerry's got the 3 on 3 basketball. Do you have anything for Jerry on that? Okay. Moes: Does Scott play on the 3 on 3? Ruegemer: As of right now he's not playing any organized. Just pick up ball at the Rec Center but he sure likes his basketball. RECREATION CENTER. Lash: Anybody have comments on that? 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Franks: I've just been hearing some things from neighbors and other people about the dance program. And how space seems to be an issue. Getting space with the aerobics classes and some of the other exercise classes so I don't know Jerry exactly how that works out but it really seems that this new group... I've heard from both that are wondering about getting more workout time. Also parents wanting to know why scheduling is... Ruegemer: I'm not directly responsible for scheduling but I do hear things as well. The dance program is growing leaps and bounds. Aerobics classes are growing leaps and bounds. We're going to hit the wall so to speak as to what we can do as far as offering additional facilities. And time. I know that Susan Marek, our Recreation Center, our lead person out there is really trying to maximize the scheduling between the two groups and kind of work with potentially, you know even with Tae Kwon Do, put them into community rooms versus gyms and really trying to kind of work around and really try to maximize, you know to have really group, certain groups in certain areas. That type of thing but I know that the dance program is really big right now and I know Mary Ann Porter who is the coordinator of the dance program I think is going to be talking to Todd with expansion plans to the Rec Center which will be interesting. But we'll see. I think she would like to see a community or room or two taken out and add an additional dance type of dance area or public. Lash: Couldn't they do the glass... ? Ruegemer: I'm not sure if the floor's conducive to dance programs or mirror or bars. Franks: ... but the dance programs certainly are revenue producers so if rental or as a revenue generator... Lash: I just can't figure out why those kids in the little class couldn't go in. They don't need to have bars or mirrors... Berg: My kids used to dance at the beer soaked floor in the basement of the American Legion. Howe: And you were with them weren't you? Berg: Dam right. Lash: Again, this is back to the drawing board. Getting people to work together here and solve this problem. Maximum usage so use...that's not used. Okay. Anything else on that one? SENIOR CENTER REPORT. No questions were asked on this item PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE REPORT. Lash: Do you have anything you want to pass on... 26 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Ruegemer: Does anyone know the reason for the... We did have a female out by the wanning house at the Rec Center trip over a crack that was heaved. A piece of concrete was heaved up and she did trip over that and break a hand and some other damage. Haven't heard anything as far as... I didn't really know that they were there and really made us kind ofreassess the situation out there and take appropriate action on that. So that's the reasoning for the mud packing the concrete slabs and raising those two flush to kind of grade. Lash: One broken record comment again about the brush and leaf drop ofl} which I think is great that the City provides that for the residents but again I'd like something passed on to the Environmental Committee and the City Council that we need to think about.., compost site. You know people are allowed to dump there for free, which is great. I certainly utilized it. But I know somewhere along the line someone is paying this outfit to haul all this stuff away so why aren't we composting it, turning around in the spring and selling it to people? It's ridiculous to me that we, with what we have that we don't have that in this town.., hasn't done any good yet. Ruegemer: Before we go on, I forgot to bring this up before. We have a Park and Rec video that was introduced to us at our Park and Rec conference down in Mankato narrated by Don Shelby. It's about a 10 minute video. Is anybody interested in watching that tonight? Lash: Is there anybody who's not? Ruegemer: Parks and Recreation, Your Best Investment. It's just a feel good park and rec video. We don't have to watch it. We can save it till the 14th. Berg: Sounds like a real holiday thing. Lash: On the 14th we'll have a very light agenda. This already has gone twice as long as I anticipated. Ruegemer: We could be talking water tournament huh? Berg: That will be a piece of cake by then. Lash: Under administrative. Jerry, do you have anything? Ruegemer: No. Howe: ... snowmobilers, did that.., go to their meetings? Lash: That's the packet. You're jumping the gun here. Ruegemer: I do have one administrative. Marsha Eland was named to the District 112 Youth Commission last night so we do have a Youth Commission adult member again. That was put on the consent agenda for the City Council last night and that was approved. So I've been in contact 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 with Marsha and will forward on the good news to her so we'll have the representative from our city on the commission finally. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORT. Howe: Jerry went for me to the last meeting of the Race Committee. That's what you might be looking for. Ruegemer: We did meet a couple weeks back I believe now. At that meeting we did discuss options. We did look at the route again and kind of talk about what can be done if we want to add fans or water points. We did have a full committee. Lynn Johnson was there. Howe: Lynn Johnson? Ruegemer: She is the present coordinator for the 4th of July 5K Run in Excelsior. Very knowledgeable. We did talk about certain things about the race and looked at t-shirts. You know we got some pricing for t-shirts. Kind of what we'd like them to look like. What kind of colors type of thing. How we're...to get some pricing from some vendors. I in mm sent out about 5 or 6 more invitations for companies to submit bids for those t-shirts. We also talked about kind of what role Southwest Metro was going to play in the 5K. I've been in contact with John Kragness who works for Southwest Metro. Southwest Metro sounds like they're really going to climb on board on the 5K run. They're going to be providing bus transportation from the Americlnn after people register out to Lake Ann. For spectators and runners. They'll be transporting people back and forth to my knowledge free of charge for that. So they're really anxious to come on board. Really the committee is extremely ahead of itself at this point. You know I think we're all looking for busy work to do but at this point there's a lot of the information is out there.., as far as the date. Lash: What's the date? Ruegemer: September 16th. Howe: 9:00 a.m. Saturday. Ruegemer: Yep. It was decided at the meeting that the 5K will be for runners only and walkers. No Rollerbladers. Berg: No wagons? Ruegemer: No wagons. No mopeds. So other than that we're just kind of waiting for things to get closer really. At this point we're really ahead of the game as far as people. I talked to a couple vendors and they're thinking I'm crazy asking for shirt prices almost a year in advance but we're just trying to get ahead of it and work on more the marketing logos. Try to finalize the name of the race. 28 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Berg: Huffman name involved? Ruegemer: Yes. A few other names that we have to try to massage into sponsors. And working on that. Working on the registration forms. We're going to try to have that out the first part of the year with all the information on it so. Price, looks like it's going to be $12 to $17. Somewhere in that area. Try to keep it relatively inexpensive. That will include the shirt. It looks like a lot of people are interested in coming on board with the contacts of the Americlnn and Houlihan's... get a lot of the food and type of things donated for the event so I mean it looks like it's all going to come together with flying colors... Lash: Okay, thanks Jerry. Anybody else under committee reports? Howe: ... next meeting is next Tuesday by the way for any of you. Ruegemer: 30th, yeah. Howe: 5:15 p.m. at the Americlnn. Bring your swim suit. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Howe: Did Todd go to this meeting? Did they throw snowballs at him? The snowmobile meeting. Ruegemer: Was that when he was invited to their meeting? Howe: He wanted to get an invitation to talk about trails that they could not ride on. Maybe with the lack of snow he hasn't. Ruegemer: I don't know if he's gone to that yet. I think they have a meeting coming up in December. Early December sometime. Howe: That was my question. Ruegemer: I've not heard that he has been to a snowmobile meeting. I don't know his schedule all the time either so. I don't think that he's been. Berg: What are the dates for February Festival? Ruegemer: I believe it's the 5th. Yeah, I think it's the first Saturday in February. Lash: The skate boarding thing here, managing your risk exposure was informative. Anything you'd like to report on that Jerry? How's it going out there? 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 Ruegemer: The skate park? Busy up until yesterday. Just a ton of people using the area. You know we're still trying to educate people about helmet use but you know, a very high percentage of the people are using helmets, as asked for that and very well received at this point. I think people are happy with the equipment. I've talked to a couple of older kids that wished we had 40 foot ramps but other than that I think for the most part, you know parking is an issue. With the fire station and that right there but we're working through all that and a lot of people. A lot of older kids that drive come to the park. They're coming from St. Louis Park, Plymouth, all kinds of areas. Lash: I read in the paper of the Sailor, or is it Excelsior or Shorewood or somebody is trying to put together in their area too so. What did they have, $5,000 or $1,500 or. Berg: Kids I talk to, when I asked if they'd like more they just sort of look at us like why? What we've got is really great. Ruegemer: At this point they seem happy with the site. They seem to be doing a good job policing themselves as far as you know telling other people that don't have helmets, you know you'd better get your helmet on we're going to lose our right to be here. Without it being gated and it's basically open whenever they want to go out there which I think is great. We certainly didn't think we'd be going to dam near Thanksgiving with people still using it but it's been packed. Lash: Have anything? Nothing else tonight? Okay, I'd look for a motion to adjourn. Berg moved, Howe seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:35 p.m. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 30