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PRC 1999 01 26CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 26, 1999 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Ron Roeser, Fred Berg, Mike Howe, Rod Franks and Dave Moes MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Manders STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent, and Dawn Beitel, Recreation Supervisor Public Present: Name Address Greg & Barb Hedlund Barbara Kreisler Alex Wagenaar Kelli Komru Cinda Jensen Laurie Gauer Mike Wegler Karol Johnson MarT Perkins Barb Lemke Valerie McCullough Tom Ebenreiter Margaret Klasterman Charles Chuva John Oberstar Ann Miller Frank Scott Gregg A. Aune, CAA President Charles Nagel Marie Schroeder 748 Lake Point 764 Lake Point 890 Fox Court 890 Fox Court 2173 Brinker Street 3820 Lone Cedar Lane 6630 Mohawk Drive tOOt Lake Lucy Road tOOt Highway 7, Hopkins tOOt Highway 7, Hopkins tOOt Highway 7, Hopkins 6530 Fox Path 6471 Fox Path 6521 Fox Path 796 Lake Point 6561 F ox Path CAA 8705 Chanhassen Hills Drive No. 6340 Fox Path 6600 Lotus Trail VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Gregg Aune: My name is Gregg Aune. I'm currently the new President of the CAA. My address is 8705 Chanhassen Hills Drive North. We're here to present a proposal for bleachers at Bluff Creek. Here to present that is our administrator, Frank Scott. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Frank Scott: Hello. I'm Frank Scott, administrator for the CAA. I have a bid here. I'm going to just hand it out... I come before you a couple months ago and we talked about doing some cooperative ventures. At that time I said we wouldn't do it piece meal but unfortunately we're trying to put together the big plan and it hasn't come together yet and this particular item would be something we'd like to have for our baseball and softball league which is coming up in April- May. The reason we're looking for bleachers at Bluff Creek is part of our program is to get the family together and get the parents out to watch the kids play. The kids like it a lot more when there's somebody back there watching them and cheering them on and saying nice catch and things like that. And with no bleachers over there, you're sitting on the ground. If somebody brings a chair along, then they've got it. Otherwise they're just sitting on the ground over there. There is no place for them to sit. What we're looking for is bleachers. The short ones. They're about 3 foot high. They're three levels. They seat about 30 people per bleacher. We would like to see two on every field. There's five fields over there at Bluff Creek. This bid that we have is for ten so the price per bleacher would be $559.00. The Board of the CAA has authorized us to buy five of these. What we would be looking for is if the city could buy the other five. Then we would have two bleachers at each field. One on each side at the backstop so people can do that. And that's the most common kind of bleacher you see. Because of some of the discussions on bleachers this last couple of weeks, these are only 3 foot off the ground. They're not high at all. And they are up to code according to Mike Korse who has looked into this so there should be no safety problems. It takes 4 to 6 weeks to get them. We'd certainly like to have them in place by May 1st. So if we could get, like I say, we'll pay for half of them. If we could get you guys to pay the other half, it would be a good thing. Any questions? Roeser: These are just for the ballfields, not the soccer fields? Frank Scott: Well what would happen, they're light. They're aluminum. We would see repositioning them out along the soccer fields in the fall and then back. They wouldn't be necessarily anchored down. So they would do both soccer and softball-baseball. Moes: So they are portable then to move around? Frank Scott: Yeah. They're not very heavy. Moes: How many baseball games are there usually in a week? Frank Scott: We have, we fill the thing up at least Monday through Thursday and sometimes on Saturdays. And in some cases we have actually two games a night on a single field. We start one game at 6:00 and the other one at 7:10 so on Tuesdays and Thursdays and we have the younger kids with the machine pitch. We have two games on one field. We don't do the, what would be called T-ball over here. Most of the stuff that's done there is, because of the electricity it's a machine pitch. We've got machine pitch both in baseball and in softball so most of the games, then we also do the fast pitch softball because last year the city set up some mounds in which you set a different, four different positions so that we could have official baseball, meeting ASA requirements. So most of it's either softball or machine pitch baseball. 2 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Franks: What about during the winter? Would these be left out in the field or would you need some kind of storage space? Frank Scott: Well they're fairly good size. But they would be left out in the field. We left the soccer nets out this year and there was nobody messed with them so we're certainly hoping there won't be anybody tearing them up. But you never know. Lash: What you're proposing Frank is that the CAA would pay for half and Park and Rec would pay for half? Frank Scott: Yes. That would be what we'd propose. Lash: Do we have something in our budget this year for this? Hoffman: Not for this park but you do have, I know there's an allocation for Bandimere. I believe it's $20,000.00 for bleachers so you could utilize some of those dollars and ask the council to just transfer some money out of Bandimere to the recreation center if you so choose. Lash: Does that cut us short then for Bandimere? Hoffman: Sure. A little bit. Franks: Todd, has there been any.., negotiations with vendors about bleachers for Bandimere? What I'm wondering is if you were just looking at buying everything all at once, about taking the per unit cost down if we can buy them... Hoffman: We can take a look at that. Franks: I'm just jumping in Frank. Maybe there's a way to swing this all. If we go ahead and purchase everything and CAA could still be responsible for their number or maybe even a few more if you got that dollar amount allocated and we could actually get more for our money. Frank Scott: When we put our bigger plan together, we assumed to be helping some at Bandimere also. We don't know what is being done there but we're sure we're going to need that. To step in someplace. One of the, this is a bid we got through Mike Korse at Midwest Playscape. I had also gotten a bid, Jerry called Steve? I believe Steve was his name. And his price for these same bleachers was about $200.00 more so. We may go out and get some more bids but there is some savings to be had if you want to do that. Lash: Well according to our policy of visitor presentations, this will be tabled until the next available agenda so does anyone have any other questions for Frank? Moes: The question I have is from the Bandimere standpoint. When will those bleachers going to be coming in? What I'm hearing Frank ask is something for 1999 baseball, softball, soccer season. Is Bandimere's bleachers in that range or are they being ordered or are they? Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: ...be able to use the fields? Hoffman: After mid-summer we'll be on those fields, yeah. Franks: After the next meeting could we possibly have a little rehash of... Bandimere?... Hoffman: Yeah, sure. Yeah, we can bring you some proposals for the whole, we'll have you take a look at it. Lash: Would that be available for next month or not? Howe: We'll have to decide. For May 1st we've got to decide at the next meeting. Frank Scott: Pretty tight. The one thing we can do is if you decide to go ahead, we could front the money immediately and then get it back. We do have a little buffer in our budget so if you decide to do it, we can put in our order and pay for them. Lash: I would say we'll be tabling this until the February meeting, and at that time we'll have more information regarding potential savings by doing a mass purchase and if you want to come that night to find out what's going on. Okay, thank you. Frank Scott: Thank you. Lash: Are there any other visitor presentations at this time? Laurie Gauer: I'm Laurie Gauer, River Bluff Service Unit of Girl Scouts Council of Greater Minneapolis Service Unit Manager. And Day Camp Director. And Cinda Jensen. She is one of the Assistant Directors out at our Day Camp and we are here to request usage of the paddleboats out at Lake Ann for our day camps this summer. We have hosted a day camp for the last eight years out at Minnewashta Regional and part of our camp is to have a water activity and preferably using some sort of watercraft. Did all of you receive this letter from Cinda and have had a chance to read it? Okay, so I won't need to go through that letter. A few of the points that Cinda and I wanted to make and then answer your questions on that. Was that we feel this activity will actually increase usage of your paddleboats by Chanhassen residents. About 30% or higher of the girls out at camp are Chanhassen residents. We can possibly even generate more revenue for you for a rental fee than you usually get during that week for the paddleboats. There would be no liability for you. Insurance would be covered totally Girl Scouts. And hopefully we can work out something that you don't have any negative impact at Lake Ann. You know leaving one or lwo paddleboats there so, did you have anything else you wanted to add? Cinda Jensen: No, I think that's it. We just want to ensure that there wouldn't be a negative impact for usage at Lake Ann. At the same time be able to offer this out to, we're estimating about 380 campers this summer at camp. And this services Victoria and Chanhassen and Chaska. But like Laurie mentioned, about a third of those girls are Chanhassen residents. 4 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Laurie Gauer: Any questions? Lash: Yeah, we'll take questions. Mike, do you have any? Howe: I have more for Jerry. Lash: Okay. Does anybody have questions for Laurie at this time? Howe: No, I don't have any, no. I think the letter's well done. Lash: Okay. Go ahead Mike. Howe: Can we do this? I mean how many boats do we have? Ruegemer: We currently have five paddleboats out at Lake Ann. What I did today was pull out the 1998 boat revenues and did an average daily, kind of a revenue type of for those paddleboats throughout the course of summer. And basically the daily rental fee was right around $30.00. So if they, you know times that by however many days that they would like to use it, that would be roughly what, about $120.00 roughly for the rental fee for that. If you take the average of that. Moes: I'm sorry, Jerry is that $30.00 per boat per day or $30.00 per day? Ruegemer: That was overall. Howe: ...leaving one. Ruegemer: I'm sorry? Howe: Would you recommend leaving one there... ? Ruegemer: I would, if the commission decides to grant this request tonight, yes. I would like to have at least one on site to do rentals for the general public. Howe: I don't have a problem with that. I think if you left one behind, I'm okay with it. Lash: Okay, Dave. Moes: That covered my question. Lash: Rod. Franks: You mentioned we'd leave one or two back. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Laurie Gauer: Well whatever you felt was comfortable, you know. We need them all but, you know the more we have out there the more program we can off'er to the girls. Quality programming but we are also looking at getting paddleboats from neighbors around Lake Minnewashta also so. You know again we don't want to negatively impact Lake Ann and ifI was a resident going out to Lake Ann planning to use a paddleboat, you know I would want to make sure there's at least one there. Franks: In your letter you mentioned that you'd do the transporting too. Do you have the equipment? Trailers? Laurie Gauer: Yeah. Last year we had sailboats out there and transported them back and forth. The year before it was canoes. Franks: Would they be returned daily or would you? Laurie Gauer: No, they'd be chained and locked out at Minnewashta. Franks: Alright, so you. Laurie Gauer: And we do notify the Carver County Sheriff that they're out there. Carver County Parks are aware of it. Marry Walsh. You know they keep an eye on it. The City of Chan so everybody is aware that they are out there and kind of keep an eye on them for us too. Lash: Do you have anything Fred? Berg: No. I would support this I think if Jerry, you can assure me that we can leave enough paddleboats there to serve the public. So that there's no citizen that comes and says I wanted to use one and it wasn't there. So I think we have to balance that against this obvious good too. So if you can get some hard numbers on what we could realistically expect at that time in the summer. Lash: Ron. Roeser: Yeah, basically it's kind of up to Jerry. To what you can operate with. I think it's kind of, I would go along with your decision. Whatever you think works out for you. Lash: I would want to make sure that before we did this, the paddleboats were checked thoroughly by staff or someone to make sure that everyone's in agreement with the.., so that when we turn them over to you there's no misunderstanding.., this was on it when we got it or this wasn't on it when we got it. And so that's, so we're real clear on if there are any kinds of damages or you know. I mean obviously there's going to a lot more wear and tear in one week than...yeah, and that's the reason you're going to have them so that's a little bit of a concern too. And the other thing would be, I guess you know I'm a huge Girl Scout supporter and I used to be a leader and I think this is a great idea. But I would want to be careful that we don't set precedent for other types of requests like this. I do think Girl Scouts is an organization. I wouldn't want Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 you know a neighborhood to come and say we want to have our neighborhood picnic. Can we take them over to Lake Susan or you know. This could open a whole can of worms for us so I think we need to be really careful on how this is handled and that it's pretty clear that it's an organization or something. That's all. So given all those comments, is there someone would at least, we can't really take action on it tonight anyway. We have to... together as a commission and then we can act on it in February. So you're welcome to come back in February or we can contact you. Whichever is the most convenient for you. Laurie Gauer: Thank you for your time. Lash: Okay, any other visitor presentations this evening? Okay, seeing none we'll move on to Approval of Minutes. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Lash: Is there anyone with corrections to the Minutes? I have one. It's sort of a large type correction and it really is no one's fault. It's not Nann's fault.., my fault. In that we did not have listed on here the fact that Mayor Mancino and Councilmember Jansen were in attendance and there are comments made on the record, although it says audience dot, dot, dot. A lot of them weren't picked up but that those comments were made. There were only two audience members here that night. And also at the end of the meeting, previous to our, previous to me calling the question for adjournment, there was some discussion between Mayor Mancino and the council regarding a couple different items that are not reflected I think because the tape recorder wasn't going and I would like to have some type of acknowledgement to the topic that was discussed that evening and as I recall it was Bluff Creek corridor and the senior citizens had a request of a garden or something... Does anybody remember differently than that? Todd, do you have notes at all from that? Hoffman: I sure do. Lash: Okay. Could you do just kind of a little summary type of thing that could be added to the record for that? Hoffman: Yep. Lash: And you know just in the future I will.., making sure that people in the audience are coming to the podium when they are on the record so that we have that on the official record. Okay? Given that correction, is there anyone that will make a motion to approve? Berg: So moved. Lash: Is there a second? Howe: Second. 7 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Berg moved, Howe seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated December 15, 1998 amended to reflect the discussion between the commission and Mayor Mancino at the end of the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ELECT 1999 CHAIR PERSON AND VICE CHAIR PERSON. Lash: So, how do we do that? Open for. Hoffman: Open for nominations. Among the members. Howe: I nominate you again Mike. Lash: Oh thanks Mike. Berg: Second. Lash: Anyone else who's you know dying for this... ? Yes, so I, ifI am reappointed would gladly accept that position. Okay, do we need to vote on that? Hoffman: Yes. Howe moved, Berg seconded to appoint Janet Lash as Chairwoman of the Park and Recreation Commission for 1999. All voted in favor, except Lash who abstained, and the motion carried. Lash: Okay, do we have a nomination for Vice Chair? Roeser: It might as well be Fred Berg again. Lash: Fred does a good job. Berg: There's an overwhelming endorsement. Roeser: That's what you told me to say. Lash: Fred, are you up to that challenge? Berg: Sure. Lash: Okay. Any other nominations? Okay, all in favor of Fred as Vice Chair? Roeser moved, Lash seconded to appoint Fred Berg as Vice Chairman of the Park and Recreation Commission for 1999. All voted in favor, except Berg abstained and the motion carried. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Franks: ... both of you had 100% attendance record for 1998. SPECIAL RECREATION SERVICES AGREEMENT; BARB LEMKE~ DIRECTOR OF RECREATION AND INCLUSION SERVICES AND MARY PERKINS~ EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR; WEST HENNEPIN COMMUNITY SERVICES. Beitel: Thank you Chairman and commissioners. I have asked Barb Lemke, who is the Director of Recreation and Inclusion Services for West Hennepin Community Services and Mary Perkins, who is the Executive Director of West Hennepin Community Services to come and talk to us about their consortium that they have and explain some of the details of how that could work for us. As being a part of this special recreation services so. Give you a chance to ask questions afterwards. Mary Perkins: I'm Mary Perkins. I'm the Director of West Hennepin and we heard a couple of months ago from Dawn that there might be an interest here in working in a collaborative way to provide adaptive recreation services so what I'd like to do is just take a few minutes to explain what West Hennepin Community Services is and then to focus in on the recreation consortium and describe how it works and then how the different parties play a role. West Hennepin Community Services is a non-profit organization. It's located in Hopkins and it's been around for about 15 years. We work with people with developmental disabilities and their families and we have a mission that's lwo fold. Our first mission is to help people be as independent as possible. And the second is to help people be included in the communities in which they live to the greatest extent possible. Developmental disabilities is kind of a broad base term that covers lots of different syndromes and conditions, and I have a handout here that describes the major kinds of things that developmental disabilities covers and that will describe to you our basic population. West Hennepin is a community support program so we like to help people with many facets of their lives in a holistic kind of way. We have a counseling service. We have a licensed psychologist that does individual family and group work. We have an outreach service. We have outreach workers who go out and locate isolated people and families and help them with basic assistance and hook them up with services. We have an education in field training service. We have trainers that go out into people's apartments and train them in basic living skills so that they can live independently. We provide empowerment and support groups. We try to be a place where people can gather and meet others with similar challenges and learn how to advocate for themselves and get what they believe they need in the community. We do have the large therapeutic recreation program. That is our largest service and by far the most popular service. My background is social work but I can tell you that I've really become a believer in therapeutic recreation as a very important tool in helping people, both to develop skills to be included in the community and to develop in many, many ways and I'm a real proponent of therapeutic recreation. Last year we served about 500 individuals in our recreation department. We also have an inclusion service. We try to not recreate the world as we know it for people with disabilities but help them to use the existing services that the general public uses and so our inclusion services help people access lots of different kinds of things, including park and recreation service. That's one of the main areas that we work on in our inclusions, but we also help people hook up with other services like community ed, housing services, transportation, and the like. We also do 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 information and referrals so if we don't have something people need, we try to find and steer them to the right place. And lastly we have advocacy so if something doesn't exist, we try to help people connect with others to advocate for unmet needs. So that's in general what goes on at West Hennepin. It's a small organization. We have 10 core staff and we have between 25 and 50 part time rep assistants that are working at any given time. The summers are the busiest. If you take a look at our brochure it will give you the overview of the services that we have. Now the recreation consortium. We have been collaborating with a variety of municipalities since 1986 to provide adaptive recreation services. But even before we were around, a number of communities had decided to work together to provide this kind of service. Collaboration has two basic advantages. One is that you can pool your resources with other communities and so it's a very cost effective way to go. And secondly, it helps you develop critical mass. People with disabilities are a small portion of the population and sometimes you need to get together with other communities to, if you want to have something like an athletic league that requires some numbers for example. Right now we have 12 towns. 12 municipalities that we have contracts with. We essentially divide them into two consortiums. We have the west area consortium that has Hopkins, Minnetonka and St. Louis Park in it. Then we have the northwest consortium and there's eight northwestern suburbs in northern Hennepin County. New Hope, Robbinsdale, Crystal, Brooklyn Park, Brooklyn Center, Maple Grove, Golden Valley, did I forget any? There's eight of them up there. The way the consortiums are structured is that we blend a variety of funding streams together to provide for the service and then we do joint planning and try to provide programs in each community. The west area consortium for example last, or this year is about a $54,000.00 program but we've got some county and federal funds that we can tap into because we are a non-profit organization. Then we do charge fees. All participants pay fees. We also use donations from civic and business groups and then our city contracts and those would be the different revenue streams that we blend together to provide the program. We use a therapeutic recreation specialist. Barb can tell you a little bit about her background, to provide the service and she would be the one that would direct, design and implement the program. The service is essentially a partnership. It's not that you would use us and then you'd just go home and forget about it. We would work with you, whoever your contact would be. If it would be Dawn perhaps. Then we would meet with her and she would play a close role in helping us design the activities. What we do essentially is on this contract, this is our 1999 contract and it's essentially designing, implementing the program. Hiring the stafl2 Training, monitoring, designing the service. Some towns do their own inclusions and so you can purchase that separately if you want to do your own inclusions. That's certainly a possibility. Also I want to point out that we do have the support of other staff who can work with Barb. We have a licensed psychologist. A licensed social worker. A special education teacher and skilled trainer and client advocates who are also available for consultation to therapeutic recreation. So we feel like we pull from many disciplines to provide the service. Here's the contract. You can look that over. What you guys would need to do is the marketing. You would need to make sure residents are aware of the service. We're a relatively small organization so we don't have a big marketing arm. This is for example what the city of Minnetonka puts out. This is their park and recreation brochure. They've got a page in here called adaptive recreation and the programs are listed. This goes to every resident in the city of Minnetonka, which is a tremendous marketing tool and one that we wouldn't have available to us. We do have a newsletter. This goes out four times per year but of course you have to call us and get on the mailing list. Otherwise we wouldn't send one to you. 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 So the marketing, reaching out to your residents would really be a city responsibility. If you look in here you'll see the different programs that we're currently offering. We have children's programs. Teen and adults and Barb can get into a little bit more about that. Then you would provide locations for us as well. You know gymnasiums, community centers, whatever. Pools. Whatever it is that people want. W would look to you to help us secure those locations at a no cost, on a no cost basis. And then whatever other assistance you can give us. If you have supplies or donated equipment that we can use or connect us with others in your community that might be able to give us some.., wondered how many people with disabilities are in Chanhassen. That's always an interesting question. I did a little bit of a study for you. You take your population. You can multiply it by 3%. That will give you a very rough idea. Some people like to use the term 10%, which is a little bit larger chunk. When you look at special recreational services, not everyone with a disability needs one. If you have a slight speech impediment, a slight hearing impairment, you probably would just use general recreation. So I think the 3% is probably a little bit better way to go in thinking about potential users of a service. We also pulled some special education numbers and you do have large numbers in the Chaska school system, and I understand that Minnetonka is also part of your, you have Chaska and Minnetonka schools that you're representing so I had just mentioned to Todd that you might want to think about pulling the City of Chanhassen in because sometimes there's issues about some students being eligible and other students not being eligible. But that's, anyway this is a little bit of a study. Right now I think we calculated we have 49 people in our current data base from your area. Do you have any questions for me? Otherwise I'll turn you over to Barb and she can tell you a little more specifically. Howe: You mentioned the revenues. You said fees were part of the, the participant had to pay that. What ifa participant couldn't pay the fee? Mary Perkins: Ifa participant cannot pay a fee, it will be waived. That's part of our county funding on that and our federal Medicaid funding. They do have to contact us though. Franks: Can you explain a little bit more about, it's $2,000.00 to initiate the contract for the first year and then after that the change in future years based on usage. Can you explain that process? Mary Perkins: Yeah. The way I structure the budget is I come up with the total, which this year was $54,000.00. Then I have my subsidies. I've got Medicaid. I've got county funding. That's Hennepin County funding but we are interested in approaching Carver County so that might be an advantage to us. Then we subtract the fees and we get down to a base amount. Then we charge each town a base and then whatever is left over, whatever remaining amount is left over, we multiply that times the number of participants. The percent of participants from the prior year. So if you had 20% of the participants, then you would be charged 20% of the remainder. This year, just to give you a rough idea, I think it was, we're at about $2,000.00 for the City of Hopkins. $9,000.00 for St. Louis Park and about $20,000.00 for the City of Minnetonka. So they carried the bulk. They had 68% of the participants. So it varies depending on how many users you have. In your early years, you're only at 18,000 people. I think Hopkins is at 16,000 so you probably would be similar to Hopkins. Although I'll bet in this community you have a lot of children and so there might be lots of users. It would be, we'd have to just see. 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: So that fee is on top of the fees that people are charged? Mary Perkins: Yes. Yes. Lash: That's the city's fees? Mary Perkins: Right. That would be your contract amount and then individuals pay. Lash: Chaska's not a part of, Chaska isn't in your. Mary Perkins: Right in the west we have Hopkins, Minnetonka, and St. Louis Park. Hoffman: The City of Chaska is showing a great deal of interest however. Lash: Yeah, I was thinking Chaska offered something. Somewhere... Mary Perkins: There is an adult community ed program. Magnifying abilities. Is that it? Lash: Yeah. Mary Perkins: That's for adults and it's under the community ed program and they do have some recreation. Lash: But currently now they have nothing for children? Mary Perkins: No. That is only an adult program. Well let me turn you over to Barb. She can tell you a little more specifically about the kinds of things that, the kinds of activities. Barb Lemke: I'm actually a rec programmer that does recreation for people with disabilities so. We get to the do the fun stuff as all these rec programmers know. I'm going to tell you a little bit about myself first. Because I would be the contact person from West Hennepin because I'm in recreation. Actually I'm a certified therapeutic recreation specialist. Basically what that means is that I'm recognized by a Board to perform recreation for a special population. And those special populations are considered to be children, people with disabilities, seniors, youth at risk. Kind of those groups that are kind of you know on the outsides always so that's kind just to give you a quick overview of kind of what therapeutic recreation is. We get trained to learn how to program specialized just for those populations. I went to the University of Minnesota and graduated there with a Bachelors in Therapeutic Recreation through the Park and Rec Department. I actually have about 10 years of experience working with people with developmental disabilities, and you all got the handout on that. Just to kind of classify that. I had some experience working with people with physical disabilities. Also with mental illness. I think that we're starting to see a lot more people diagnosed with different, varying disabilities. We're seeing a lot of children with emotional and behavioral disorders that people are coming to and saying we want a special program for them also. So that's just a little bit of a future I think that's coming. They're going 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 to actually want to be included in their community somehow. One thing I wanted to mention that with the service we, a big part of also what we can do. We'll have, I'll go through some of the programs that we have and can program down here. Also the cities that we work with now really find it, I guess a great asset to have me on the other end of the phone. Just to be able to pick it up and go Barb, we have this child. Da, da, da. We don't know what is going on. You know. And I know the programmers in the other cities have used that a lot. You know saying can you come out and just, can you just come out and watch him or her for a while. And it's really convenient for them to just give my number to someone who calls and says you know, do you have this and I can pretty much assess over the phone if you know they fit into our programming or where they would fit in the best. Also training, and I do a lot of training for the park staff in the summer. I actually go to the cities and train their park staff on disability awareness and I can train anybody on disability awareness or anything that you need at any time. So that's a real nice asset to have too. Because I'm just on the other side of the line. For programs. I'm going to, we need to hand out the newsletter. Mary mentioned our newsletter. In there we have listed all our adaptive recreation programs and when I say adaptive recreation that means programs primarily for people with disabilities. I know there's a parent here tonight. One of my favorite parents. I had to say that. But she made a good point before that children don't always fit into your regular, you know we can do an inclusion and include a child into regular t-ball. I'll use that for an example but sometimes that just doesn't always work. Or parents want them to make friends with kids with other disabilities or whatever their reasoning so we have adaptive programming. This programming is not closed to people without disabilities though. And actually in one of the programs, the children's programs, Out and About it's called and that's a group that actually, it's kind of more of a social group for children and on Saturdays, one Saturday a month and they'll go to, we like to use community centers. They go swimming maybe at the community center you know at one of our communities. Or go to a playland. They go to you know sliding downhill or something like that and we fully staff that. Whatever the child's need is. But that program, now I forgot my point... But that program is adaptive but we have, I know what my point was. We have actually a sibling. He's come along with her sister who doesn't have a disability and has joined the group. And that's we call, actually it's a fancy term for it called reverse inclusion. Or reverse mainstreaming. But that's really what you shoot for. You want, I mean it's open to everyone and she was like wow. That sounds really fun so she wanted to come. Another children's program that has been popular is gymnastics. What we would do there is have an instructor that would adapt some of the, the big thing with gymnastics is getting space, but adapting you know the things that they do. It's basically adapting it. Understanding the children's needs. Bowling is a big program. Has increased. That's a Saturday program. And all these children's programs, whatever the needs of the child, we would support them with a staff ratio. Because sometimes the child needs maybe one staff just to keep an eye on him or her or to help assist them. And when I say an assistant, I guess I think of it this way. Is when you break an arm or break a leg I guess more often, is you need a crutch or maybe a wheelchair to get around or something like that. This is what the staff would do. Especially with an inclusion. They would help that child to participate whatever they would need. So it may be just explaining instructions. Again, maybe you know if you've got a group of 30 children and you know your coach is telling them instructions or your instructor, he might, or she might miss part of the instructions so they would help to explain them maybe again or you know things like that. So I kind of like to describe it like that. But with Out and About again, if we needed 6 staff for 5 children, you know 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 we would provide that because our goal again is to get these children into the community and to doing things. And actually to make friends. A lot of our kids don't have a lot of real close friends and it's a nice thing for them. Teenagers. We have all the categories covered. Teenagers are getting to be a real growing group. Since I've been there I know that our Teen Explorer Group, which is a social group. Social groups are really very, very important. They're very, there's real high attendance. Again they see that as their place to go and to be with their friends. And it can be real simple things. This is a sample of, once they register and they fill out the registration form and they would get this in the mail with all these activities.., and we use different venues in the community. Again space. We would use a community center room and have, what did we have last week? Wacky Olympic Night. You know things like that. And I've been learning, it doesn't have to be real, real fancy. They just like to get together like any other teenagers and just have a good time. We staff it. And the number one thing parents are after is that it's a safe environment and that they have fun and make friends. That's all parents ask from us so it's a pretty easy job in that way. We have bowling for teenagers and then in the summer we have softball. And that has grown also. I would think there'd be a lot of teenagers down here. I know Carol's got a teenager coming up so. I've been around and I've seen some kids now and they're all teenagers so. With our adults. Our adult population is the biggest population that we serve in number wise. We have actually three social groups with our adults. We actually on Wednesday evenings we serve about, I've got about 65 people that we serve in two different social groups. One up in Crystal at the community center and then one more in the Minnetonka/Hopkins/St. Louis Park area. Again, it's the same, I've got some fliers here with different activities that we do. It's the same thing. They come every Wednesday and they do, you know they go sledding. They're going sledding tomorrow night and somebody's going to tour a radio station. And then we have a Saturday evening program that is called On the Town that is a fairly new program. We had some consumers, participants come up to us and say, and we're very you know in touch. We want to hear what people have to say and then develop programs from that. If that's what they want. There were a group of individuals, primarily adults. Some that may live independent. Some independently in the community have real high skills. Some may even drive. You know take buses independently and things. And they wanted to go out on Saturday nights, just like all other young adults did so we developed this program. We actually only have one staff that goes because everyone is able to take care of all their own needs out in the community and to monitor their own behavior and things and we have all those guidelines. You know I set all those up and things. But that's a really popular program. We actually have about 25 people that are signed up for that also. And we also just got a new transportation grant. Mary didn't mention that but we're also working on transporting. Transportation for people with disabilities is a huge issue. We have all these wonderful things but we have people that can't get there because they either don't drive or Metro doesn't go out to their area or it does, but it only goes out until 7:00 and there's all these issues. So we've got actually a grant from Met Council to do some transportation to some of our, especially our social groups and some educational and athletics. I'm going to pass a book around. This actually has some pictures in of some of our groups. People having fun. With athletics we actually collaborate in our athletic programs with Hammer Residence, which is a group home agency over in Wayzata. They have a rec and a volunteer coordinator and they provide staff and volunteer at athletic leagues and we do all the administrative part and then the YMCA through Ridgedale YMCA also provides some staff and volunteers also. Our softball league, we actually have 140 people that play softball. We have about 12 teams in the summer on two different 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 nights. And then in basketball we have 120 people that play on two different nights. And that's growing too. We actually had, I had like 20 people on one team. Switching them every 5 minutes to, and that's primarily mn by volunteers and coached so that is very successful and there's definitely room for more growth there. We have bowling. I should say this. Our programs mn 9 weeks. So when we say a quarter, it runs 9 weeks in a row. We actually have 80 people that bowl on Saturdays and that's every 9 weeks and that's throughout the year. So that's a lot of bowlers and they're really good bowlers. They're a lot better than I am. And then we have dances once a month, which is actually a favorite of mine because I'm at every dance and we average around 80 people for that once a month and that's a real big social time too. And again, a lot of people will go to, they don't go to everything but they'll go to, they'll either be really involved in athletics or come to the dances or come to social programs and things like that. And then I'll just say something about inclusions. We, our big inclusions are in the summer for playgrounds. That's primarily when we do, because obviously children are out, but we can do inclusions and again that would meet the child's need at an area playground. Depending on the need of the child, we may you know have 1 staff for 3 children depending on their need. But I know parents are very, they're very appreciative of that service because it's very nice that they can get out and play with children in their neighborhood. And then this last summer we had some teen centers that we had started. And that was really popular also. We have again teens don't have any place to go. There were a couple teen centers that we tapped into in St. Louis Park and in Maple Grove and we had an inclusion facilitator there that would help include teenagers into that so. I think that's all I have. Questions? I know I was getting a little long but. Franks: So the transportation for Chanhassen residents, that would be open to adults and children or? I'm looking at some of the events probably would be planned in St. Louis Park or Hopkins or Minnetonka. Is it their responsibility to get to these events? Barb Lemke: Yeah. If you would contract us, they would be able to use our service. Franks: Transportation service? Barb Lemke: Yes. You see the cities that are in our consortium, yes. Franks: That's what I'm wondering. If we were to contract with you, so there'd be a central pick-up point in Chanhassen or? Barb Lemke: No, they'd actually go to their home. Franks: Go right up to their home. Barb Lemke: Yeah. With Out and About we've done it a little differently. We actually have had pick-up sites in Maple Grove. The parents, I mean we haven't really, we're starting more with the adults first. The teen program you know may go there. I don't know yet. We really haven't examined that part yet. 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Mary Perkins: The transportation services is brand new. It just started, it hasn't started. Actually it' s going to start next week so we're just in the process of getting it going but yes, we would consider coming down to the Chanhassen and picking up. You have to be able to ride unsupervised. Or provide your own escort. That would be the main limitation. The other thing about contracting with us is that we would try to provide programs in Chanhassen. And what we would probably begin with is some kind of a focus group. Relying on some of our current contacts and talking to people about the kinds of programs that they would want to have, but we'd definitely do at least a few programs right in Chanhassen. Franks: And what you'd need from us for that is space. Mary Perkins: Location, marketing. Any other support you could give. Volunteers. Whatever. Lash: I might have misunderstood what you said. You'd be starting with adults or you? Mary Perkins: We'd start with a focus group. And if the focus group said gee, we'd really like to start with some children. My sense would be children's programming. That would be my guess but we would look at the focus group. One thing about the organization, we're really grass roots driven. And we will do what the consumers want us to do. So if they would like us to begin with children's programming, that would be my guess in this community. And then we would take a look at, if there are adults, do you know if you have group homes here for example? I know Rolling Acres is out here so that's one large residential facility that we could look at for adults. Barb Lemke: Also, what is the name of the community ed. Mary Perkins: Magnifying Abilities. Barb Lemke: Yeah, we could also. Mary Perkins: Connect with them. Barb Lemke: Connect with them and maybe do some things together because we do do that with project SOAR which is the adult community ed with disabilities group. Up in Minnetonka, Hopkins area and we do our dances with them so we might be able to collaborate there. Because we don't, we're realizing, and I'm sure you know that, you don't want to just duplicate these services that are, you know we want to overlap and work together and that's what we're all about SO. Howe: We need to talk to Chaska maybe too. We should see what they're thinking. We have nothing now, do we? Nothing? Okay. Mary Perkins: It'd be nice if Chaska would join too because then you'd have both of those communities and you wouldn't have that school district split. 16 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: ... the adult program already, it'd be nice to have something... Plus you know the Community Center is there so if we wanted to have something that obviously could have in Chaska and we could obviously have... Anyone else with questions? Comments? Moes: Help me understand now like staffing like function and then looking for volunteers. How do you do the staffing and then where would volunteers come in? I heard you mention that. Barb Lemke: We primarily pay part time stafl~ I don't like to. Franks: Can I just jump in on that point. That was partly my question too. Would we be responsible to provide volunteers also? Barb Lemke: No. We would take care of all the staffing. And when I can say staffing, I mean volunteers in there. For example my teen group now, I just had some people call up and wanted to volunteer, which doesn't happen a lot. We don't have a volunteer coordinator. So primarily with the registration fees, what that pays for is the program has to pay for itself. It will pay for the staff there. And you know if we can get some volunteers, that would be great. It gets, I have a lot of contacts with the University of Minnesota Park and Rec Division there and I'll get some volunteers through there but because I, I don't know. Personally I think with the needs of our participants and I just think people will stay longer. They're more reliable. I know that years ago you started out with volunteers though. Mary Perkins: Yes we do but you do need paid staff because you do have to have people that are reliable but if you have contacts, if you have a civic group. If you know of a pool of people who could assist us, all I'm saying is just give us those contacts and then we try to develop a network. Barb Lemke: Yeah, and that's why the collaboration with Hammer and the YMCA, they have a really good base of volunteers that come to the organization so we use them as volunteer coaches and then I have a couple of paid staff there but that's the whole idea of collaborating. We'll work that way so. Franks: Dawn, I just have a quick question. On the back of your information sheet in our packet you had mentioned that the $2,000.00 was already included in the 1999 budget. I have a hard time trying to remember exactly what part of the budget that was included. Was that a specific, Todd? Hoffman: In recreation programs, 145. Fund 145, recreation programs. Franks: Did we specifically set that aside? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: So then it was already... Hoffman: Yes. 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Franks: Well that's what I recall so, okay. Beitel: I thinkit was just titled specialrecreation programs. Hoffman: And the council talked specifically about it. They questioned us over the variety of mechanisms which would use, we could utilize to provide these services and that would be to hire our own stafl2 Join a consortium. Contract and at this base level it seems very affordable and the council agreed with that. Lash: I'd definitely be interested in... Chaska and Carver County being approached. Any more discussions? Moes: The year 2000 cost, that would be based on participation, ifI remember you calculation between Minnetonka, St. Louis Park and Hopkins. Lash: How far into the year would you be able to give us some kind of an estimate of what it would be for the following year? Mary Perkins: Well the other cities do their budgets in July so I'm usually two years behind. I'm looking at, you know for the '99 budget I looked at '97 statistics so I do the budgets in May and June and they're presented in July so, are you on a similar calendar? Do it in the summer? The budget. Hoffman: Yeah, we do our budget during the summer but it's a calendar year. Mary Perkins: On, it's on the calendar year? Okay. Hoffman: But we start in July and August and September. Lash: So for us to make our budget we'd have that information by August. Mary Perkins: Well that would be similar to the other cities. Also, we would have you in a group and if Dawn were the representative for example then she would come and we meet quarterly with the cities and interact and get feedback and issues can be addressed four times per year. And we'd hand out statistics or deal with whatever issues we need to. Moes: So ifI understand correctly, anyone in the consortium would be able to attend this event, is that correct? Do you ever have a situation where you're looking for a minimum and you don't reach that minimum? It didn't sound like it, okay. Barb Lemke: Yeah we have with children's programming. We've offered Karate and then I had problems getting an instructor so, that wanted to work with children with disabilities. But for gymnastics we've had that. We try to make programs and see what happens. Moes: Okay. 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Franks: Sounds good. Lash: So tonight you're looking for a motion Dawn? Beitel: Do I just refer you back to the recommendation here? Lash: Is that what you're looking for? Beitel: Yes. Lash: Okay. Is there a motion? Franks: Well I would move that we enter into a one year agreement with the W.H.C.S. in the amount of $2,000 to provide special recreation services to our city. Howe: Call Chaska now? I'd like to talk to Chaska. Can we have staff do that? Hoffman: Yes. Yeah, we're talking with them now. Tom Redmond, the Director of Parks and Recreation and Chaska called today and I said I would package up your information and send it down and then you can follow up with a phone call. Franks: And I have no problem with Chanhassen being a leader on this one. Howe: Second. Franks moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommends that the City Council enter into a one year agreement with W.H.C.S. in the amount of $2,000 to provide special recreation services to residents of Chanhassen, which includes both Carver and Helmepin Counties. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSIDER FOX CHASE/CARVER BEACH PEDESTRIAN TRAIL CONNECTION. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: One quick question for you Todd .... was agreed upon. That was prior to development of the homes there. Hoffman: Correct. Lash: So people when they bought the lots should have known? Hoffman: Yeah, it was prior. Was this home built in '86? The Kreisler's home... Berg: So it was built in '88? 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Moes: Another quick question. Under Option B, which is the construct a trail terminating Mohawk. What would I guess prevent the usage of where they're currently going now then? Hoffman: If the properly was developed, people would be very hesitant to go down.., properly owner... They planted trees in the middle of that walkway now. Moes: Okay. Hoffman: ... Lash: Okay, are there other commissioner questions for Todd? Franks: Todd, is it possible on this 10 foot easement to put in a 10 foot trail? Hoffman: No. Franks: So we'd be looking at some kind of an aggregate? Hoffman: I think we'd want to go the bituminous for the erosion and probably a 6 foot trail that would not be plowed in the winter... Franks: But on the southerly segment, that would be a 10 foot? ... Lot 19. Hoffman: I still think at this point we'd be looking at a 6 foot connectors... They're both, both connections, both areas have steep grades. This is also a steep grade going down hill.., would have to take measures to... Audience: But it has to be bituminous? Hoffman: It doesn't have to be... Lash: That's alright. We're just asking commissioner questions and then it's for you guys to come up to the podium but we have to have you on the mic otherwise the tape recorder doesn't pick you up. Moes: So the 6 foot wide trail that was initially, proposed would start from the, I guess you go back to the first picture which is the stake. Hoffman: This right here? Moes: Right. I mean does it start from the stake on the left and go 6 feet in to the right? Is that how that would be done? Hoffman: Well the first configuration was done right here... 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Moes: So I remember it was 18.3 feet from the stake to the house so we're like 12 feet away now. Okay. Lash: Okay. Other commissioner questions? Okay, we'll open it up to the audience then and I'll ask that you come forward and state your name and address so we have that for the record. Oh sure. Sorry. (A video tape presentation was given at this point in the meeting.) The address here is 764 Lake Point. The purpose of this video is to produce the proverbial a picture's worth a thousand words. I'm sorry we all have to meet under these circumstances but I thought this would be particularly helpful. The issue here is a path that is being proposed to be placed right to the east of the house to access Lotus Lake presumably down this area here. You'll note that the steep hole that's in the middle, is in the middle of a path that is currently traveled by many residents and non-residents who like to access the lake through this particular area... Todd Hoffman has contracted with surveyors, commissioned surveyors rather to identify the appropriate landmarks of the properly line so that we could see just where the proposed path would go. I think originally project proponents assumed that the pathway would be there and that is in fact probably where they thought the properly line was. As it tums out the properly line is right there. You'll notice the pink flag on the stake and let's see ifI can zoom in. That is actually the properly line and relative to it's relationship to the house, you can begin to see the house structure there is very, very close. The ski pole that is directly to the right of the marker is about 5 feet from the pole. A little less than 5 feet, 5 feet actually and that is also where our improved properly begins. That is to say that is where our lawn is. The next ski pole to the right is 5 feet from the other ski pole. From the properly line to the second ski pole you have approximately 10 feet. As you can see that's smack dab in the middle of our lawn. Now we'll move down the project a little bit. I've actually only moved in a straight line... To the my left there s the surveyor's mark and then the two ski poles as I indicated earlier. If you look off into the distance you'll see another pole. Another marker by the surveyors. Let's see ifI can zoom in for you here. And again over to the right you've got the side of the house. We'll walk down a little closer. Okay, from here you can see the marker off to the left. It's a surveyor's marker with a pink flag and then as you move to the right you've got the first ski pole, which is about 5 feet from the surveyor's mark and then the second ski pole is 10 feet from the properly line. In here you'll note that the second ski pole is just a few feet away from our actual home and it is right smack dab in the middle of our grass way to the back yard. This presents quite a problem. The intended path would be actually to the left of the surveyor's marker. At least that's I think where people think the path is supposed to go. And then off in the distance to the left there, you can also see where the surveyor has made another mark. I'm sorry, another mark where in theory the path would curve around. The properly line and the nature of the amount of properly that would be seized by easement, presumably by easement rights is a huge invasion of privacy and an encroachment upon our dwelling. Originally we were hoping that the pathway would be there. We all thought it might be but unfortunately it is not. It is on the Hedlund's properly. Barb and Greg Hedlund living to the left of that. So I hope this is a helpful illustration. Let me back up and give you kind of a broader shot now. So there is the home. You can see the pathway heading 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 back. Again, more than half of that pathway would be seized through "easement" to put a path and then over to the left is where most people travel today. Not that we necessarily approve of that travel but we recognize that folks need to get down that direction. It tums out again that's all Barb Hedlund, or Greg and Barb Hedlund's properly. All things considered, I find the project unacceptable and unfortunately we will have to do whatever we can to legally stop any forward momentum on this project. Thank you. Lash: Okay. We'll openitup. Yes? Ann Miller: My name is Ann Miller and I live on Fox Path. 6561. I guess I feel sorry that that happened to you but it seems to me that your realtor or whomever you purchased it from should have made you aware of where that was. I had the same problem, a similar problem at my house. On Fox Path. I didn't, I legally tried to fight it. It was over a different circumstances and I lost the arbitration but what I want to know is, were you aware of this at all when you purchased your home? Okay. And I guess if you choose the short route and the Hedlund's agree to do it, to move the, we abandon Option A and go with Option B, would that be suitable to you without a legal? Okay. Alright. I'll just speak for myself. Only I just wish that there would be access to the lake for us because I was aware of the easement when I bought the house. That was one thing my realtor did right and said that we would have lake access through that area. Barbara Kreisler: I'm Barbara Kreisler, Lot 20. And one of the things on one of the pictures. This is... I realize there were easements in the plans back in '93 but that was before our house was even built... So we are, I know there needs to be some type of path but I'm, it's going to take the value of my home. We're in an upper bracket neighborhood and we have.., impact the value? Will it affect our privacy? When we moved out here we picked a neighborhood where it was... In the summer you can't see anybody behind us. We have a lot next to us. We have, you know with the exception when there are people traveling that path but when it gets publicized and people are parking and, I have motorcycles coming up and I have snowmobilers coming up. We're going to see more of that... I don't mind people walking the yard. I just, I don't want to lose my whole side yard... I think anybody else in this situation would again.., real clear but the properly line.., one is here and one is here but it really, it cuts over into most of our yard coming down. It's not, this is the current path coming down where everybody, well it's actually a walkway because it's commonly used. I also have a trail going all the way down into the Wegler's properly because people take my lawn area so they don't stop where the boulders are because it's so steep. They follow my yard all the way down this way, right into Mike's back yard. So it's really warn down there too from their use. So it really cuts in more of my yard here. It's not just straight back here. It cuts way into within a couple feet of my four season porch also. Down the back into Mike Wegler's properly. Not just this area but the whole side. People are coming down here in the summer. All the way down here and I have a worn path in-between these trees right in the back into Mike's properly and we're going to be cutting into and losing all this lawn all the way to the side and a lot of our front yard. So we can't, I mean when my husband and I wrote, we feel very strongly about it. Not going through as is because it will devalue our home. We're in an upper bracket neighborhood and we will take a loss on our home and we have... 22 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Chuck Chuva: I'm Chuck Chuva and I live at 6521 Fox Path. In this neighborhood. Fox Chase neighborhood. The neighbors who live on Lot 20 and own Lot 18 and 19 do in fact have a beautiful home. I'd say they're gems of the neighborhood. And they've been enjoying relative privacy back there. And they bought their homes or built their homes with the easement existing, as you see it here. I think there are a number of folks here present today that would opt not only for the trail to go through, but also opt for it to curve down as Option A shows to the public area that is along the lake. I understand the privacy issue. The valuation of the home issue. It's understandable. Quite frankly when the other homes in the neighborhood were built we were told as part of our value package, in buying the neighborhood, that there would be someday and thank you for the trail and park referendum, that this is now happening. That there would be value for everyone else in the neighborhood too in the form of a trail down to the lake so we're hopeful that our home values would be enhanced. There's probably 55 homes in that neighborhood and each one would benefit directly from this trail option. Some solutions to the privacy issue may be, and I throw this out. Would be to off'er the properly owners a screen of sorts. Trees perhaps would enhance the natural beauty of the area. And maybe afford them some privacy that they deserve there. Snowmobiles passing through is an issue. I think you grasp the fact that there is a hill. It peaks here and drops down through here. Snowmobilers are apt to travel this way, up this hill. There is a sight line. A very short sight line at the top of the hill they would encounter. I think it's a safely issue so as far as preventing snowmobilers from going through there, this rock was put, there's a rock here but maybe it's something.., more formidable could be done in the way of a natural barrier or perhaps signage. I would hope signage to keep snowmobilers from going up and down that path creating a safely hazard. But the strongest I think recommendation for continuing with Option A, going back down to the beach, is a safely issue of this trail entering out onto the streets. There are many young children in the neighborhood who like to go down to the lake. Although probably should have adult supervision. Sometimes they don't and if they're outletted onto the street there, it definitely is a safely issue for them. We'd like to see that trail continue straight down to the beach and go into Carver Park as it's proposed. Carver Beach Park I should say. Also again as another safely issue. You see there's lighting at the cul-de-sac right here. Street light and I think everyone involved would like to see some further street lighting, safely type lighting at the other end of this right here. I don't think it's lit up very well. Mike probably could tell you what kind of lighting is there. But that area does need to be lit up if there's going to be a trail there and we think there should be a trail there. And Option A should be the path. Alex Wagenaar: I'm Alex Wagenaar. 890 Fox Court. I agree really with the previous speaker wholeheartedly. I think there's a number of issues. They're always difficult and nobody wants a trail that's really close to their house and this obviously, going back in history, whoever built that house and I don't know whether the city approved it or what but if it's too close to the trail, we knew that before that house was built and somebody built that house there and so that's just water over the dam now but it's a problem that we should make sure that we avoid in the future. The trail is very important. We purchased our house and moved in late last year. Just one year ago. We've been there for a year. And whenever I purchase a house I always look at all, what the easements of record and what are the covenants and restrictions on the properly. That's all part of what you're buying in a piece of properly. And it was clear to me that easement was there. We went down and inspected the easement a couple of times. Looked at the trail. Made sure that we 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 could get through to Lotus Lake from that spot before we purchased that house so it was an important consideration to us and I think it's a very important amenity to the whole neighborhood. All the people around there.., when I first came through because you can hardly ride a bike. Kids ride their bikes through there in the summer and all of a sudden you come over this hill and there's a huge rock. I mean this rock is permanent. Right smack dab in front of you. And you have to kind of ease through between the pole and the rock. Now I understand a little better that that existing path is now where the easement exactly is. I would argue in favor of Option A. The existing plan for the trail. I do think it's important to put it through. It's important to have it be safe and it's important that... And the streets there, if we open it into the street, those streets are like driveways and I don't know what the long term plan is for those streets but there's no sidewalks. It's not like an improved street.., get over to the park from that point. I think just in a couple, a few of the comments of some of the things that have come up. The fact that there are multiple paths through there now indicates that it's high time that we improve it so we have one improved trail that will avoid this, people going in 3, 4, 5, 6 different directions. There were comments about parking and so forth down there. We walk that quite often. Probably a few times a week at least in the summer in the evening and I don't think I've ever noticed anybody parking. That people are coming in and parking in that cul-de-sac to go through there. It may happen once in a while but I've never noticed it... They live next to it. They see it more but I walk through there quite frequently and I've never seen that the parking is a real problem. I just would encourage the city to move forward with the improvement and provide the path. And provide it in the safest, and in a way that in the long term it's going to be the most beneficial to the whole neighborhood and the whole area. And I think that would be Option A, the original plan that was... Thank you very much. A comment was made that was not picked up on the tape. Alex Wagenaar: Yeah, I drove around and I walked that path. I did not do a survey of the easement to know exactly where it was and I did not know exactly where it was positioned but I looked on the plat and in the recorded covenant of my property that that easement was there. And we had heard that there plans to improve it. You know that proverbial one day soon they're going to fix that up. Lash: Thank you. Anyone else from the audience? Loren Veltkamp: I wasn't going to say anything tonight but I'm here so. I actually live, I don't live in Fox Chase. I live over in this direction down this way. Quite a few hundred feet down by the beach down there. Berg: Could you state your name for the record please. Loren Veltkamp: Oh, it's Loren Veltkamp. I'm at 6724 Lotus Trail. Which is where this arrow comes out on Lotus Trail here. My wife and I have lived there for about 5 years and we've used this trail actually to get to Christmas Lake, which is totally backwards but when you live on a lake you've got to go the other direction you know. So we've been walking our dog through there and I've taken a snowmobile through there a few times too. But first thing I wanted to say is that the 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 trail is totally accessible the way it is. You know I've never had any trouble using it. And the people that it borders on here, Hedlunds and Kreisler, you know they are the nicest people you could ever meet and their houses are beautiful. And I would, you know I do use the trail but I would almost hate to see that area developed in any way because to put a bituminous path through there I think would kind of just, it wrecks the scenic beauty of the area and I think it would wreck their houses too. I would like the Board to consider that. All you would really, well actually you don't need any trails through there right now because everybody's using them. Unless there's a safety issue but the kids are going to go through there on their bikes anyway and they do and we walk through there all the time. And everybody knows that there's an easement there so you know they feel free to do it and they know where it is so I don't really see the need for any big development there. If you do want to develop it, I'd go very minimally and maybe just a little 3 foot wide stone path, you know which is more than I can see that you need right now. And then maybe just a foot and a half on each person's property because you know what do you really have there? You have kids riding bikes and you have people walking their dogs and joggers and beautiful scenic area and also it's getting nicer and nicer in there because all the people that border this area here have been putting, doing a lot of landscaping and stuff so it just gets better and better every year. The way they're fixing it up and they have little pine trees in there and everything and you know a straight bituminous path, does it follow the straight line like that too? I mean is it like straight like it shows on the drawing? That would be really huge I think. I think it'd be, well even a 6 foot wide trail. I don't know. I use the trail. I would be happy with it just the way it is, you know. It's fine. You know we've never had any trouble walking it. You know these people are real nice. And if you want to develop it maybe a 3 foot wide little stone path or something. You know would be fine for me. Lash: Any other audience members wishing to address the commission? Marie Schroeder: Marie Schroeder and I live at 6600 Lotus Trail. And my property is right here, which I wasn't included as far as lots drawn out which upset me when I got this. I was always aware of the easement when I moved in there. People use it now. Lots of children fish in my front yard and we do a lot of clean-up after them. A lot of them using my bathroom. Which I have not opposed to or complained about or anything. I have pretty much maintained the trail as far as mowing it. Cutting back trees. I have done that myself. There are some spruce trees along here that are aged. There are some other larger maple trees and when I talked to Todd he said those were going to be cut down and I really oppose that. To cut down trees to put in a path that is useable right now. I'm very sick so I'm having a hard time talking here. I think the trail should be left just the way it is. It is very, very steep right in here. I can't imagine anybody walking a baby with a baby stroller down there. Rollerblading. That can be very dangerous. Even riding a bike down this path for a child. And coming this way it's the same thing here. The kids have come over there and they have fallen off of their bikes and gotten hurt but I don't know. I don't know what the solution is but I do own all of this along here and I think it should be left just the way it is. Hoffman: ... down below the hill? 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Marie Schroeder: Yeah, and then I have a lot of spruce. Some aged spruce trees. They're further, they're down by the lake. Down in this area. Right along in here. And then I have two large maples in my yard, or that are lining my properly. Lash: They'd have to come out because they're too close or they would be damaged during construction or? Hoffman: No. To clarify my statement. If the trees are in the way, we only have 10 feet there and obviously you would be on that side of the 10 feet to stay away from the trees. But if they're in the way, they'd have to be cut down to manage the trail. Or maintain the trail in a permanent location. Right now where people walking are inside, outside the easement so it's legal, you're going to stay within that easement and trees are there, they would have to be removed. But obviously we're not going to do that unless need be. Marie Schroeder: ... talked to you Todd you said that it would, if we went with this plan here, that those trees would have to come out. Hoffman: Well I think we were talking about the trees down below this hill. Marie Schroeder: Right. Hoffman: Yeah, and if they're in the easement, this photo doesn't show if they're in the easement or not. But if they're in the easement. Marie Schroeder: Well maybe we should get some pictures of those trees because there's a sumac down there. There's a maple. There's a balsam. Hoffman: Yeah, there's a tree that the snowmobile trail runs right into... Marie Schroeder: But they're older trees and they're beautiful trees. Hoffman: There's not enough room there. You'd have to grade that entire lot out to make that, just go down over the edge. That's all you can do. Someone from the audience made a comment. Lash: If the trees are in the easement, and the trail has to go in the easement, obviously the tree's in the way. And some, what we're hearing, as far as having an aggregate or wood chip or anything like that trail, when you've got any kind of a grade going on, we've tried it in other places. Over up by the other beach. You know the bigger beach or the main beach, or whatever one you call it. And you just end up with washout every year and you have such a mess and it's so high maintenance and everything washes all over it, it just doesn't work. Hoffman: Basically they're grass or bituminous. Leave it as is. Flag stones really lend itself it tripping points and maintenance is going to be even. 26 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: It's not like putting a little walkway from you know your back porch or back to your garden. It's a lot, it's high usage and it's long. Hoffman: ... down that hill. Lash: Yeah, you know I have to remind you. You have to come up to the podium because you don't get picked up back there and then our minutes are really incomplete because we can't hear the question. All we hear is you know. Tom Ebenreiter: Sorry. Lash: That's okay. Tom Ebenreiter: I'm Tom Ebenreiter. I live at 635 Fox Path and I just, I'm wondering if, it seems like that's.., and I was never aware you could even walk along the part of it's, this part of it right here. Is that, you've kind of mowed that, back above the garden thing... An audience member made a comment that was not picked up on the tape. Tom Ebenreiter: It seems like it's someone's yard so I've always kind of stayed away from it. So either you've got to really develop this thing and cut some stuff out or leave it as it is pretty much. Because this right here is pretty eroded the way it is. That's got, and it's pretty, it's hard to ride a bike on there without breaking your neck or your bike. So mainly I'm just curious about what kind of development and how much more usage this would involve. Has anybody taken a look at how many more people possibly will be cruising through there and if it's going to be, are there going to be snowmobiles going down Fox Path eventually? I mean what, I'm just curious as to what the overall affect is going to be beyond just saying it would be nice to have lake access, which I think everybody agrees on. I'm curious about what the overall long term affect is as it becomes more popular. Lash: I don't know that we can predict how many people will now start using it. I mean it's used now. To me I look at it and I think it's used now. A lot of people use it. A lot of people want it. Right now no one's quite sure where to go and so you know for Lot 20, they have kind of people going all over everywhere because they don't know where to go. Where this will be defined and people will know this is the path. This is where I go. If I'm off the path I'm in somebody's yard and it's clear. Now there may be some people who will see it now who had no idea before that they could use it. There may be a few in the neighborhood who will pick up on that. As far as people coming from all over, you know the west suburban area to come and use that trail probably is not going to happen you know but you may pick up a few more people. Tom Ebenreiter: Did I hear right that the proposal compromises to do this? Leave it where it is on your properly but then forget this as a result of doing that? 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: I think there's two plans, options right now. That doesn't mean that we are completely restricted to only opting for A or B or nothing. I think as a commission once we get all the comments from you, we're going to open it up and kick around some ideas and direct staff with some solutions to what could be. Tom Ebenreiter: So leaving it as it is not one of the two options that was proposed tonight, is that correct? Because it infringes on your land, right? Hoffman: Right, and then in the future as Lot 19 is developed, that's going to change the way people feel about cutting through there as well. Also one thing we should clarify, that these pedestrian trails are not motorized. Snowmobiles, motorbikes are not allowed on them. Tom Ebenreiter: And could it be set up so that you can truly keep that from happening? Hoffman: In what fashion? Tom Ebenreiter: I don't know. Hoffman: No, we cannot. Lash: Neighborhood watch groups. Tom Ebenreiter: No I mean you can't put up pylons or something in a way that would actually keep people from. Hoffman: The rocks that are utilized there now are for that purpose and we do that in some other areas but it's. Lash: And if is was defined, it will keep people from going all over. Tom Ebenreiter: So you're saying that you can't really keep it as, this part as it is right now because it is on their property and if it is developed, that causes a problem correct? Audience: Where we walk now we're not legally allowed to walk there. As I understand it. Lash: Correct. Kelli Komru: Kelli Komru, 890 Fox Court. This option on the other side, I thought we had talked about, if we went with this option we would be helping this property owner by not going down here and so that we were thinking about moving this over into this lot a little bit more. Isn't that what. Hoffman: ... 28 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Kelli Komru: Right. And so that's an option that would make these people maybe a little happier. Make these people a little happier. Make this person happier and we still have access to the lake. I don't have small children so I didn't think about having to go out onto the road but these roads are not heavily traveled. Audience: ... properly owners all the way around happy or is that compromise one that they all want? Hoffman: Not the Wegler's. There's a letter. Yeah, no the lot down here. There's a letter that, some correspondence that came in and the commission has a copy of all these... The top one is from the Wegler's who live here and their preference is to continue with Option A. Lash: Okay, anybody else from the audience wishing to? Sure. Ann Miller: Well I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't like trees but I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Ann Miller. So I guess I see pros and cons for both sides, as probably most people here do. But for proposal Option A, I mean originally we all, those of us who purchased homes in the area didn't, most of us anyway, didn't think that we had easements to the lake where it is shown in Option A. However, now that time has passed, etc., it would be a shame in choosing Option A. If we had to take down trees and that sort of thing. I really do believe that. And as far as traffic goes for small children, the people in Fox Chase have to remember that there is not a sidewalk anywhere in Fox Chase development. The kids are in the street all the time. Constantly. In fact our street traffic in the Fox Chase division is much worse than it is over on the other side where the path would come through so I can't see that being a real issue. And if it would, I like your idea then of making the trail shorter there but I would still like to see it maybe just maintained by the city but not really developed. I still don't see why it would need to be a bituminous path. Lash: Okay. Other residents? Chuck Nagel: I'm Chuck Nagel. I live at 6340 Fox Path and I was just wondering, we haven't heard much from the Hedlund's. I think that's, I haven't met you but I was, you're the Hedlund's? I think several people have pointed out that probably the Option B makes more people happy for the least evils here. I'm a user so, and I'm not affected by the trail itself but my impression is that, when it is bad, when it's wet and slippery, that in both cases you're going to have some problems with grade. I think do we know, is the grade, I haven't used the Option A grade. My guess is that it's worse. Is it possible to do any grade improvement with Option B? Hoffman: Very little. Chuck Nagel: You can't take the crest off the hill a little bit there? Hoffman: Yeah, on the very top you can take that crest out but overall you're still going to have grades going down. But you could take that first bump off... 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Chuck Nagel: I like the idea of woodchips and whatever and I agree with Jan that it's very difficult to keep it in place during a downpour. I think you need to do something on the surface though because I've seen people picking their way down and you know a lot of people go down on three points and I think it's slippery and maybe not even used in bad weather because of that so I guess I would support improving the surface in your judgment and support the Option B. I think it is a good compromise. I met Barbara this afternoon. We were looking and it is, I would be unhappy to have that many, I'm comfortable walking through somebody's yard anyway. You are literally in her back yard. So I think the moving it into Lot 19 is probably the best compromise in my mind. I don't know why the people in the right hand comer, I didn't read the letter or haven't seen it. Why did they oppose that? Hoffman: Just states that. Chuck Nagel: Are they here? Hoffman: No, Mike was here and he left. Lash: I suppose what it would, I mean I'm just guessing but I would imagine their thought is that people coming down the trail will be coming right out in front of their house... Chuck Nagel: But the trail, doesn't it empty into Mrs. Schroeder's driveway? I mean the rock is literally at the end of your driveway, isn't it? Hoffman: Where the two driveways come together. Chuck Nagel: So I mean you've got the same problem that they do so I guess, and I agree that kids that are going down there. I don't think that the traffic isn't that big a problem. Like you say, I live at the outlet of Fox Path and you guys buy too much furniture. There's trucks coming in and out of there. Delivery trucks by the dozen coming in and out of there. So I would vote for Option B I guess. With some trail improvements of some kind. Lash: Anyone else in the audience wishing to address the commission? I'm curious about the Hedlund's too. You guys don't have anything you want to share? Barb Hedlund: I guess my... is we're in the process of talking to a builder and building another house.., best thing for the community but we don't know. We don't know what our driveway's going to have to... Lash: Would the home be for you or? Okay. Barb Hedlund: You know we're just in the very beginning stages... I mean we've been very, we met... Lash: Is there anyone else in the audience wishing to comment? ... Okay. Then if there are no further comments. 30 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Audience comment. Chuck Chuva: One thing no one seems to mention is cost. Obviously B, I think obviously B would be the least cost so even though I vote for Option A, I see that B would be the least costly so. But the other thing is, what is the time frame on this being installed? Hoffman: We don't have a set time frame. Obviously we want, the time frame is based upon resolving the issue .... Chuck Chuva: Approval or, okay. Hoffman: And then we'll move on from there. Chuck Chuva: Likely if it's approved within the next month or two, would it be done in the spring or summer? Hoffman: It'd be during, if it's approved this spring we'll do it during the summer construction. Lash: Are you changing your vote to B? Chuck Chuva: No, I still for opt for A. Hoffman: Just a clarification. That is Option B. Ann Miller: I had one more comment. Alex Wagenaar: Alex Wagenaar. Yeah, I mean I think where the sense of most of us, we want to have that trail there and you know I think I voted for Option A too but it's not like it's you know go to the mat on Option A kind of thing. It's we want to be able to use the trail. We want to build it and we want to do it the most reasonable way that accomplishes that task. Ann Miller: Ann Miller. The only thing about Option B would be that then it might look to people who are not living in the neighborhood, like motorized traffic could go through there because you're connecting a cul-de-sac to a road. So I guess I would like signs. Something posted. Little round ones with slashes through that no motorized vehicles or something so that those people would know they could not use motorized vehicles on that short path through there because that's the only other thing. The other thing is, considering the path systems in Chanhassen, where does this path really hook up to as far as you've gone from Carver Beach Park and then the park system after you've gone through the Fox Chase neighborhood, where would it hook up to for the future? I mean we wouldn't have to worry if we chose Plan B, but at some point in time Chanhassen would decide to change this neighborhood. Hoffman: The only function of this is a connector... It's a connector down to the lake and then there's the trail around the two parks and then there's a trail farther up that connects the other end 31 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 of Carver Beach with Butte Court. These are simply connectors so you can find your way. It is not intended, it's not mapped. There's no comprehensive plan to build a trail. Ann Miller: Okay, thank you. Lash: Other resident comments. Barbara Kreisler: Barbara Kreisler, Lot 20. One of the things I had mentioned to Todd is I mean people use it now and he said that there were people that aren't aware that it's there. Wouldn't it be cheaper just to put up a sign and there are paths all around Carver Beach and they aren't paved. That take you from the little beach to the big beach and they're used all the time and they're not paved. I mean couldn't there be something small in a sign. And snowmobilers and motor, they're still going to use it whether there's sign or not and I see that. A sign isn't going to do any good. People will still. I am in favor of a path. Does it have to be paved? It's not paved anywhere along Carver and people use it all the time. Lash: That's the one that washes out all the time. Barbara Kreisler: Yeah, but just to put a sign up letting them know that they have. And if we can come to an agreement on where, I just don't want my, a lot of my yard gone. You know people do take my yard and they take Barb's properly and walk it but to take a large section and put asphalt, you know I just, leave it as is. Designate a smaller area and put a sign in. It'd be a lot cheaper. Kelli Komru: Kelli Komru. The way it is right now is very difficult to bike over. I mean it's just holes and bumpy and up and down and that's why it would be nice to have the improved path. Loren Veltkamp: One more time. Loren Veltkamp. I live on Lotus Trail by the mini beach there and there's that path that does connect the big beach with the little beach and that path is about 3 feet wide and it's unimproved and it's just flat you know dirt. And we've been living there for 5 years. That path has never washed out. It runs right along side the lake and everybody uses it. There's kids biking on it and we have everything but Rollerblades on this thing and we walk it every day with the dog .... work. You know they work for everybody and I don't see why we can't have more have more of them. You know I don't like the idea of going to paving in our neighborhood. You know the less tar and concrete we have, you know the prettier it is, so. Lash: Okay, thanks. Anyone else from the audience? Okay, we're going to be closing public comments now. That means it's our turn. So we'll open it up for commissioner comments. Mike, we'll start with you down at your end. Howe: I have a couple. I know many times in my brief tenure on this board we've had people come before us and complain about trails and it's too close to my properly. It's going to invade my privacy and we've gone out and looked at them and they're 30, 40, 50 feet down a hill. We know the people. However, I went to see this place tonight and I have never seen again in my short tenure here a trail that we'd build that would impact people more than this one. I think it's 32 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 really too close. Mistakes might have been made by the builder. By the town. By the realtor. Perhaps by the buyers but I mean that's done. I do see a need for a trail. Some sort of improvement. I'm glad to see, it seems like compromise seem to be, we're fashioning a compromise here at some point but I would say, it would seem to be Option B that would be the best. We'll still get the trail. It depends on the folks with the undevelopable properly but we could eliminate perhaps the run from that or T the trail to the lake. But I think this trail is on top of these people and I have a problem with that. Lash: Dave. Moes: I do see a, I do have a concern actually with the close proximity of the trail, the way it is currently laid out. Hearing a lot of the comments tonight, I actually applaud and there's a lot of good ideas there that we could possibly incorporate into a solution here. I'm not quite sure specifically what would be the appropriate one. I did have a couple thoughts, or concerns actually. I don't know the degree of the concern of you know parking in the cul-de-sac if it is fully developed. That would be I think something that we would want to address. I did hear a few comments on the motorized vehicle access. That does seem to be a concern. I have seen gates in other areas where people have utilized those to some extent to try and I guess prevent that sort of activity going on. So I would I guess now be interested in pursuing something along Option B. However, investigating additional components within that. Lash: Okay. Rod. Franks: Todd, ifI can just direct a question to you. Maybe you can give us some help. In more of an unimproved trail, some of the grass mowed trails that we've had, considering the terrain that we're dealing with here, along the line of the Option A path. Concerning both of the two segments. What is the viability of having that type of unimproved surface trail? Just a mowed trail. Grass trail. Hoffman: Sure. It all depends on the volume of foot traffic. And so we identify a 3 or a 5 or a 6 foot wide area, grass trail traversing down the hill. If people walk there in volume during wet times, we're going to lose that turf surface and then we're going to start seeing erosion problems and issues. The trail that Mr. Veltkamp alludes to, it couldn't grow grass because of the over, you know the tree story canopy there but it's just dirt. It's dirt and there are some erosion areas where gullies cut across and that's certainly an option that the commission can take a look at. We have very few of those in our system. Franks: That was my next question. Hoffman: Yeah, they're very informal. Just neighborhood connectors and there's no perfect answer. But if we identify a single corridor and people use it, especially as you go down that hill, it will be prone to erosion and turf damage. Franks: I'm feeling some sense that some kind of definitive decision needs to be made about where this trail's going to go. You know, it needs to be marked. People need to know where it's 33 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 going to be. They need to know that it's something that is available for them there to use. I'm sympathetic with the Hedlund's looking to develop their properly and not having any idea where that's going to be and where people are going to be walking, whether along, and what sides. There may be two sides of their properly and where's that going to be so I would really like to see us as a commission really make some decision here in a reasonably timely fashion, I had originally, I came into this meeting with a strong feeling towards Option B. The one question I had, which is one that you brought up was moving with an easement 15 or so into your properly. Will that give you enough room to create a driveway? That's the one piece of the properly I didn't look at as far as the grade or where a driveway would go if you put a house in. So I can understand you're wanting a little time to work with the builder, developer to see what kind of viable options that you have. Yet at the same time I can also consider that the easement was there. It was on the books. 18.4 feet from the line to the house. We'd be looking at developing approximately a 6 foot trail. Would that trail start right on the line? Todd, is that what we're considering? Hoffman: Close to the line. You'd want to be about a foot off there to allow for. Franks: So we're looking about coming in from the line, edge of trail about 6 feet and the city then is responsible, or has the leeway to upkeep the trail another, if the homeowner wanted to put up a fence, how much farther from the trail then would they need to be? Hoffman: That depends. They could go up to about 3 feet from it, as long as we would grant them an encroachment agreement. You need that free space. Franks: So about 3 feet from the edge of the trail. Hoffman: Correct. Franks: So we're looking at the best case scenario 10 feet, which is going to leave about 8, 8 1/2 feet or so. My concern is that without developing along with Option A, people are going to continue to use and go down that lot line down to the lake. They're just going to continue to do it. I was surprised to hear some of the comments, that some of the residents are okay with that. That surprised me a little bit. Then if that properly's going to be developed, if you do build there and we don't have anything permanent or no decision is made, it's just going to be that much harder to make that decision at some point in the future. So those are the things that I'm considering right now so that's it for me. Thanks. Lash: Well as everybody's pretty much said it. I agree that the residents of Lot 20, this would not be a livable situation for them. And unfortunately you know you're the one stuck with it. It's obviously it's been a long list of errors. I just can't imagine how with people knowing that easement was there that they built a house that close. And I agree with one of the residents who said well you know it's water over the dam now but it needs to be looked at as something we wouldn't want to see happen again. I was kind of wondering if it would be possible for staff to possibly meet with Hedlund's before we make a decision and just see if we can do some kind of discussions on either, a little back scratching so when they do come to develop, you know they 34 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 would be waived a trail fee or they would be some kind of thing like that. If we were able to get a little more space along there to fudge some of this over into their area if we chose to go with A. Or would it be possible to have the trail begin at the easement where it is now but then angle slightly east so it would be then into Hedlund's properly. But wouldn't put any kind of path on where they would want to put a driveway in the future. Because they'd still have the same frontage across the street. I agree with Rod that I think that people will continue to use that easement connector down to the lake, but maybe a good compromise is to go with B and people who are on bikes and strollers and wagons and stuff can always use the street if they need a smooth surface and people who are walking or don't need a smooth surface would know, you know if Mr. Schroeder mows it and people know that they can use the east connector down there, and they're okay with that, they could do that. I mean it'd be a compromise both ways. But I, you know I will agree with all the other commissioners that to put it in Option A along, in that close to Lot 20 is just not doable in my mind at all. So I'd actually like to see us just investigate it a little bit more before we make a decision and possibly come up with a few other options. Fred. Berg: Yeah, I've got a couple things. Maybe address some of the other issues that were brought up too. I won't kick the dead horse anymore about how close it is on Lot 20. When I was out there I felt guilty like I was trespassing I was so close to the house. I went on Lot 19 just because I wasn't sure that I was supposed to be that close to the home. So I can certainly sympathize with that. I think we'd all like to have the developer here right now. Maybe express our concern. Yeah, whomever. Yeah. Couple things were mentioned that I'd like to just comment on. At the elbow of the trail, whether it be at, in Plan A or B, I definitely would not be in favor of putting a light there. I think that that would be, that would really be intrusive for the neighborhood and might not be something that anybody would really need. I had a question, how far is it Todd from, in terms of blocks, if we take Option B and go down the hill. If you go Mohawk to Napa, how far is it to the lake from Napa? Are we talking just another block or so? Hoffman: Yeah. Berg: So it's really close? Hoffman: Yep. Just a rectangle so you take one, the exact opposite measurement. Berg: Okay, so if you put some signage up that Children in the Neighborhood. Drive Slowly, whatever. Just to make people aware of the fact that there may be more traffic. If we were to go with Option B, that would be a possibility? Signage. Hoffman: Possibility, yes. Signage requires. Berg: I know it's not our. Hoffman: Yep. Regular, specific warrants and I'm not sure that we would meet the warrants for that type of signage so I'm not going to make that promise. 35 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Berg: Okay. And as far as whether it be bituminous or left as it is, I would much rather leave it the way it is but it sounds like this is not like other trails. That it is in fact washing away. And if there are holes and potholes as a couple people are saying, I guess I would be in favor of making it a bituminous trail. We have done those in other areas and without really destroying the natural beauty. In many ways enhancing it because we've been able to get so many more people into it to appreciate it. I think a bituminous opens it up to some people who may otherwise not be able to use it if we leave it as it is. I'm tom on that one to be perfectly honest with you. I think we also have to listen to the fact that there are significant numbers of people in the neighborhood who moved in with the expectation that there would be a trail connector there and I think we have to honor that too. I think we have that obligation. I look at B as being a good compromise, but I also feel very strongly that some sort of permanent connector has to be there. I can certainly understand the plight of, or not the plight. The uncertain situation of the owners of Lot 19. Is there any way to make the trail at the top of the property more narrow and then widen it as it goes down, further down the hill? So that it's not as intrusive near the home but it widens as we get further down. So it still provides access for strollers and bikes and whatever, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the 6 feet or whatever width we're talking about. More narrow at the top, you know what I'm saying? And then widens out as we move down. Hoffman: Yeah. Something that the park industry does not advocate to the fact that once you get a user on there, at one end they're accustomed to a certain spacing and they align either their bikes or their users and if they come to the other area where it starts to narrow down, you don't customarily see that occurring. So if you're going to pick a width, pick 4 feet or 5 feet or 6 feet and just keep it standard so people know what to expect as they're going up or down hill. Berg: Okay. That's all I have. Lash: Okay. Ron. Roeser: Well I guess I would really lean towards Plan A too. I think part of the charm of that trail is you go down the hill and walk to the lake. But by going with Plan B you're just taking everything out of what's nice about that trail and just going straight down a hill onto a road and I think that takes a lot away from it. It won't be as pleasant to walk by any means or as pleasant to ride to the beach. I think we have to discuss with the Hedlund's though. If we're coming that close to that house, that's really kind of frightening. I know I wouldn't want a trail that close and I'm crazy about trails. If we can put this off for a while and discuss it with them, I think that probably would be the best idea. But blacktopping it seems to me to make the only, is the only sensible thing to do with it. You can't put woodchips, not on that kind of hill. That's all. Lash: Okay. Anyone else? Anything you'd like to add? Franks: Well in the neighborhood that I live in Chanhassen there is kind of a similar situation. At the end of a cul-de-sac there's a trail head connector and it goes right in-between two houses and I doubt that it's more than 6 or 7 feet to each house on either side. I've not heard of that being a problem but I also have to admit I'm not one of the homeowners. I do have to say that I'm not swayed by the argument of property value and resale. The argument Barbara that you're giving 36 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 that strikes me is the privacy issue which I think is real. But if we're going to go basically or solely on the affect of your properly value, I'd be more inclined to put it through as... even knowing that this was there. It was there for you to see and you decided to buy properly and go ahead with it. But I think we do need to be sensitive to those privacy issues where we can. Lash: Anyone else? Okay. Given our indecisiveness at this point, who thinks they'd like to make a motion? And able to do that. Roeser: I would table this discussion until, should we go to next meeting or? Berg: Well, are we willing to table it for a year? I mean it sounds like we might now know for a year. Are we being responsible by tabling? Franks: I'm uncomfortable with that I think a little bit. That just seems like we're pushing it out a little bit too long. What I'm wondering is, I think tabling is a good idea but to use that time to really gather some more information. I just don't want to drag this out indefinitely because then we're going to be the same position. Howe: Well the key to the compromise is building on the other lot. He has to figure what's going on there. Franks: And if there's some initial surveying that could be done to see what types of trees. How many are going to have to be removed. Lash: I would think, ifI were the Hedlund's, which I'm not. But ifI were to build on this lot and just say Option A were to be the one that we voted to go with, I think it would be personally more amenable to me to have the trail be going a little like this and saving some trees that maybe would have to be goners and if that meant it came a foot onto my properly line, I would rather save the tree and do that than to have nice trees back there in the easement have to be cut down. So you know that's the kind of stuff I think that needs to be discussed in a more informal situation with Todd. You guys can look at the lot lines. Look at all different possibilities and what you think, if you're going to build there, what you could live with. What you would like to see happen. And you know preserve the frontage so you wouldn't have to worry about problems with driveways and those kinds of things that you really can't go back and renegotiate later on. So I'd just like to get more information that you can guys can work out. Things you absolutely could not live with or things that you would be willing to live with as sort oftrade-ofl~ for things that we could offer you. So I'd like to get, that's why I would like to table. I'm not really too interested in tabling it for a year or whatever until. Roeser: Can we table it indefinitely. Lash: Well I think until we get the information. Until they've had an opportunity to really meet and discuss some of the different things and look into everything. And if that means it doesn't go in this summer, that wouldn't. You know people have lived without it for years and years. It wouldn't bother me too much if we went one more summer without it. 37 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Roeser: It probably and would never have come up until someone mentioned it, right? Hoffman: Correct. Roeser: Or was it on your schedule? Hoffman: It wasn't on my schedule. I knew about it but. Roeser: No... someone reminded us that it was, yeah. Lash: ... you know everybody's lived and has been using it. I guess I would just suggest that people try to be a little more refined in how you use it if it's not paved yet this summer so that people aren't all over everybody else's yard. So given that we need a motion to table. Okay, can we do that? Howe: I'll move. Roeser: I'll second that. Howe moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table action on a pedestrian trail connection at Fox Chase/Carver Beach for further investigation. All voted in favor, except for two commissioners who opposed. The motion carried with a vote of 4 to 2. Lash: And you will be notified when this is back on the agenda. 38