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PC Minutes 3-17-09 CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MARCH 17, 2009 Chairman Papke called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Kurt Papke, Kevin Dillon, Kathleen Thomas, Mark Undestad, Denny Laufenburger, and Dan Keefe MEMBERS ABSENT: Debbie Larson STAFF PRESENT: Bob Generous, Senior Planner; and Alyson Fauske, Assistant City Engineer PUBLIC HEARING: APPLE TREE ESTATES: REQUEST FOR A SEVEN-LOT SUBDIVISION WITH VARIANCES ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF, SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL, LOCATED AT 8600 WATERS EDGE DRIVE. APPLICANT: PLOWE ENGINEERING, INC. OWNER: ALOYSUIS KLINGELHUTZ, PLANNING CASE 09-01. Public Present: Name Address Craig Schlichting, Plowe Engineering 6776 Lake Drive, Suite 110, Lino Lakes Kyle Tidstrom 8679 Chanhassen Hills Drive North Tom Houston 8520 Waters Edge Drive Al & Mary Klingelhutz 8600 Waters Edge Drive Neil Klingelhutz 9731 Meadowlark Lane Paul Rosstein 9492 Painters Ridge, Eden Prairie Bob Generous and Alyson Fauske presented the staff report on this item. Papke: Okay Kathleen, we’ll start with you. Thomas: No, I don’t have any questions at the moment. Papke: Denny. Laufenburger: Alyson, can you talk about the capacity of that pipe that will traverse from the darker blue to the west, make a turn and then connect with, I’m assuming it connects with the storm sewer. Is that right? Fauske: That’s correct. Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 Laufenburger: Talk a little what that capacity might be or is it too early for you to check the hydrology that you talked about? Fauske: At this point Commissioner Laufenburger we do not have that information but we certainly will be checking that. The developer’s engineer and I, we had a conversation yesterday. He had indicated that when they ran the calculations that there was capacity in the pipe but we certainly again will be very diligent when we look at connecting to an existing system to make sure that it has capacity. We are at an advantage here where you know if there is some under sizing, we could look at replacing that pipe. It is within an easement but so far indications are that it’s adequately sized. Laufenburger: That pipe does not exist today, is that correct? Fauske: It does exist today. Laufenburger: Oh that does exist? Generous: Where it connects to. Fauske: Yes, the connection point if you can follow right here on the very west side, it would be connecting to an existing storm sewer, and I apologize if you can’t see it but the storm sewer does continue to the west and there’s a wetland that it discharges to which then goes to the drainage way towards Lake Susan. Laufenburger: Okay. But the green arrowed direction that is shown here from, that pipe is not in the ground right now. Fauske: Correct. That’s the proposed storm sewer. Laufenburger: Okay, thank you. Dillon: So, good question now but what if it’s determined that this solution isn’t workable? Then what? I mean then what drawing board do you go back to at that point? Fauske: What we, what our concerns are, there’s two pieces to this solution that staff needs to verify. One is to make sure that it does in fact hold the back and back 100 year event. That we’re able to achieve that. We know that we were close under the last scenario so we feel confident that by providing this piped outlet we can achieve that. To answer your question Commissioner Dillon is that, if we feel that this particular pipe system as shown isn’t work, we can certainly look at increasing the pipe size. If that doesn’t work, then we may have to look at expanding that pond and potentially losing what was, I believe it’s Lot 1, Block 2. And those are certainly things that we need to work through but from all indications that we’ve, conversations we’ve had with the developer’s engineer, we don’t feel that that’s something that would happen. Dillon: Alright. So what types of homes are proposed for the subdivision? 2 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 Generous: The only one we’re sort of certain on is the one lakeshore lot. The person has 5 children so it will be a larger home. At least 3 car garage. I believe it’s a 4 car garage so. The rest of them we’ve assumed maximum size, based on our ordinance requirements. 3,600 square foot footprints with the driveways. Again we evaluated the impervious coverage for that and generally they come under that number but we’re looking at trying to do a worst case scenario. Dillon: Okay. Has the developer done other projects in Chanhassen? Generous: Older ones I believe but. Currently they’re just subdividing the land. They’ll I assume sell it to individual builders to build the homes. Dillon: So one of the things, you know we’ve had these things come up before and you know that’s great, we’re going to subdivide it but as the planning commission we haven’t getting any visibility to what’s planned other than you know subdivided and you know kind of like we’re supposed to be stewards for the community. I think we need to have a transparency as to what is proposed. Other than just subdividing it and put houses up. I mean great. Well what kind of houses? Generous: Commissioner Dillon, that’s really the market determines what goes in on these properties. I assume that the developer can go through, discuss some of the builders that they may have talked to for this. Everything’s sort of shaking out right now with the economy and so we’ll hopefully, as they say the strong will survive and we’ll get those builders who have quality work and that people want to have. Dillon: Well if the person is here that’s proposing this, maybe I’ll ask that question of them and see what they say. So then another question I have, will the other houses, not the two nearest the lake, will they have lake rights? Generous: No. Dillon: And okay. So that takes of those were the questions I had. And that’s all I have for right now. Papke: Okay. Undestad: No… Keefe: I’ve got a couple. You know does the grading plan increase or decrease the runoff on this? I mean there’s quite a bit of slope there. I mean is it, you know what does it do in terms of, you know we’ve got this wetlands or the ponding solution that’s going to take, I presume increase runoff because of the houses that are going there? A little bit of hardscape which is coming onto the site that doesn’t exist today. And we’re going to grade the site, and go ahead. Fauske: That’s a very good question Commissioner Keefe. What the proposal is and what the city code requires is a decrease in the discharge rates for the 2 year, 10 year, and 100 year event, so they’re able to achieve that. The developer’s engineer has also done a nice job in showing us 3 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 what some volumes of runoff, again you know of course when you increase the impervious surface you do increase the volume of runoff. So I don’t have the particular numbers available for you but I can assure you that we will make sure that their current proposal, the last slide that I showed you here tonight will meet our city code for peak discharge rate. Keefe: But I mean you know in terms of the grading on site, I mean you know because we do have a fair amount of slope. I mean are they enhancing the slope? Are they decreasing the slope? Are they, you know I mean because doesn’t that affect rate in terms of how much? Fauske: It certainly does, yes. Really the biggest change is going to be with the addition of the street. You certainly increase the, it’s not necessarily even the grades on the street. Just the fact that it’s a paved surface instead of a grass slope. But really and truly the, but for the most part they have you know moderate grades in the back yard and front yard that looking at the grading plan don’t significantly change from what’s out there right now. You know there’s moderate slopes out there. There’s fairly flat slopes out there so they’re actually, you know they’re matching into what’s out there fairly nicely. It’s just the additional impervious surface. Keefe: Okay. You know it looks like it’s a fairly lengthy private street. You know what do we do in terms of fire protection? You know emergency vehicles in the case of a longer private street. What is the, what does the city do in that? Generous: Well the Fire Marshal did address that and it’s mostly signage. They just would need to know where to go. They will have to meet our 7 ton standard, 20 foot wide pavement width for the common portion. And then at the end of it it’s like any normal driveway. They’d be able to access it. Mark didn’t have any concern on the specific. And it’s only 2 homes that will be off it. The rest is on a public street. Keefe: Okay. You know it notes that there’s an intention to save the apple trees. I mean is that a typical scenario where we would have trees which are very sort of, you know I don’t know that they were maybe they were there at one point for sort of agricultural reasons. I don’t know but I mean is that typical that we would save those or is that sort of just their choice that they can do that? Generous: It’s primarily their choice. Our ordinance does encourage the preservation of trees. It doesn’t specify species and so any time you can do that, even you know all trees have value. Keefe: Alright. That’s all I have. Papke: Just a couple small questions. First of all Alyson, you might have covered this and maybe I just didn’t catch it. When does this pipe kick in? Is it an emergency overflow? I’m just trying to get an idea of how frequently that’s going to get exercised. Fauske: And that’s a very excellent question. Right now the way the developer’s engineer has designed it, the same pipe that takes the water into the pond would be taking it out and so as I indicated to him, this isn’t something that I’ve personally looked at before and what they’re relying on is that there would be enough elevation of the water above the inlet to push the water 4 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 through the pipe, so we need to take a look at that. So basically the elevation that the water would be entering, at some point would be going back through that pipe and that’s where we need to take a close look at that pipe design. Make sure that we’re indeed draining that pond like they say we are to maintain the back to back 100 year events. Make sure that’s flowing out so that we’re not creating the overflow situation that we looked at previously. Right now they’re showing the elevation at 901 which effectively would be the inlet and the outlet elevation but however like I mentioned, since the pipe system will dictate at what point that pond will start to drain, I don’t have, I haven’t seen those calculations yet to be able to tell you at what elevation it will hit before it starts draining back through that pipe. Papke: Okay. Are there any issues with those kind of pipes freezing or clogging? I mean on the way here tonight, there was water flowing over Pioneer Trail because of a drain pipe that’s either frozen or clogged. The City must be aware of it. There’s pylons out there and stuff so, but I’m just curious as to what, are there issues like that with this kind of a drainage pipe or storm water pond? Fauske: There’s issues with any storm pipe with it icing over at the inlet. With it clogging up with leaves and it’s a maintenance issue for our public works department and we have to work diligently with them. They certainly have their list of known offenders if you will where they know that every spring that inlet or that outlet of that pond will clog up and they’ll go in and clean it. They’ll keep an eye on it so there’s, it’s unfortunately something that’s inevitable with these types of designs is that they are susceptible to those things but we just have a maintenance policy where we have, like I said, a list where we know these ones are more prone than others to take a look at, and they do, they do pond inspections every year to make sure that the inlets and the outlets are functioning. Papke: So in this particular case, if this one was to freeze in the spring or the fall and get plugged up with leaves, we would see the kind of drainage that you had depicted on the previous slide where it would move towards the northeast. Flow between the homes, etc. Fauske: That’s an extreme case. That’s the back to back 100 year event. Papke: Okay. Fauske: And again we just wanted to take a look at it. It seems you know to the, somebody who’s developing something like this, it seems to be a very unlikely event to happen is the back to back 100 year event, but you know staff here, we’ve all lived through a back to back 100 year event and we know the problems that they cause and that’s why we’re very adamant when it comes to storm design that we do design for those events because it’s just, it’s prudent planning. Papke: Do those events include snow melt? Fauske: Yes. Papke: The only last question I had, I noticed in the notes there’s a well, existing well on the property. Are there any issues or concerns with the well or? 5 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 Fauske: Mr. Klingelhutz can keep the well in function. Our city code does allow for that. However if he has issues with the well, he will not be able to drill a new one. He would have to make, he would have to connect to the city water. Papke: Okay. Anybody else have any questions for staff? If not, if there’s an applicant here tonight, would you please step up to the podium and color in the lines for us. If you could step to the podium please because we’re being videoed. You’ll be on TV. Neil Klingelhutz: Hi, I’m Neil Klingelhutz. Al’s son. I’ve kind of facilitated him in developing his property. I guess in regards to Dillon, Commissioner Dillon’s comments on what type of houses. I know the guy that’s purchasing the lot, the lake lot you know he’s talking of a fairly, million and a half to two million dollar project and the other lots, due to a lot, probably due to the city requirements with lot sizes, park fees and storm water dedications, I mean these lots get fairly expensive and they are, you know there’s 7 lots there and over 7 acres so they’re averaged over a lot apiece. We started out with 10 lots on there and kept getting whittled down. Different requirements here and there so we’ve been real giving with the city I think and pliable to their demands so I guess you know the other lots I would see $450 to $600,000 dollar package I guess in answer to your question and I’ll let dad have his piece here. Al Klingelhutz: As I said, I was born and raised right across the road from this piece of property and most of this piece of property at one time was agriculture except the slopes. When we built the house my wife complained about all the trees I planted, and it was somewhere between 86 and 100 that I planted on the property and some of the ones on the bluff, there were a lot of trees there. But where we built our house it was all Dutch elm and most of them are dead. Some of them were over sized and then I planted quite a few trees in front of our house and another place where…they’re going to hide the view of the lake but I love trees. One of the things I did in order to avoid any bad water to go in the lake, I left about a 3 foot strip of grass all along the lakeshore in front of our house to filter out anything that would be floating in there, so I’m… myself. I hope you, the size of the lots, they’re all over sized. Some of them are triple over sized and I think it’s going to really turn out to be a pretty nice project. I don’t know if you have any more questions for me? Keefe: I don’t have any at this time. Al Klingelhutz: I did lose 3 sugar maple trees that I planted. In two different storms. One time I lost one of them and another time I lost 2 of them. I’ve still got quite a few sugar maples there too. Laufenburger: No questions Al. Thomas: Me either. Al Klingelhutz: What was that? Laufenburger: No questions. 6 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 Papke: I have one brief question. The issue of the significance of the apple trees came up before. How many are there? Are they historic? Are they very old? Can you kind of hit on the importance of the apple trees? Al Klingelhutz: They’re all trees I’ve planted since we were there and I kept them trimmed and sprayed them myself and. Mark Klingelhutz: There’s 17 of them. Al Klingelhutz: One of the reasons you can see the kind of shape I’m in, I probably wouldn’t even subdivide this property at this time but I’ve got to get rid of some of the work on it. It’s been too much of a burden and we’re going to tear the big shed down. So that’s another area that’s going to have saturate, the soil and that saturation and where it stands and it’s a pretty big building. So I don’t know what much else. I’ve pretty much agreed with everything that the city asked me to do. Papke: So is it that you would like to continue to enjoy literally the fruits of your labors here and in the coming years you want to reduce the maintenance but you still want the fruit from the trees? Al Klingelhutz: They’re still pretty good sized lots to take care of… It will make it a little easier. Papke: Sure. Okay, thank you very much. That’s all I have. Are you speaking for the applicant? Craig Schlichting: Yes. I just would like to mention, I’m the applicant’s engineer from Plowe Engineering. Craig Schlichting and I think Alyson did a nice job of covering things and if you have any direct questions for me. Papke: Is there any more detail you can add to that drain pipe? The storm water drain pipe. There were questions about I believe the diameter and I had some questions about the placement. Can you tell us any more about that drain pipe? Craig Schlichting: Sure. Currently as you know, or as Alyson mentioned, there’s no outlet to this wetland so if you were to design a 100 year back to back for that area it would indeed go over that gentleman’s driveway. By adding the pipe we provide that security and just an added benefit for this pond to have an outlet. It’s something obviously we want to have. In terms of the size, it’s currently a 12 inch. Nothing would outflow that 12 inch pipe until anything above the 10 year storm, so street storm sewer and everything will enter the pond which will subsequently dump to a wetland. They both bounce at one time and ultimately discharge to the west and that system which is under easement. We looked at other options in putting pipes on other people’s property but certainly we don’t have the easements or rights to do that so this was the best situation that we could come up with. 7 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 Laufenburger: Mr. Chairman, I do have a question. Alyson used the words the same, the pipe that will deliver water into the blue area will also discharge it. Can you just explain that a little bit. Craig Schlichting: Let me grab you a diagram. If you look at the bottom corner where my finger’s pointing. Laufenburger: Yes. Craig Schlichting: Essentially the storm sewer as shown up here is what’s in the street and there’s quite a bit of drop into that structure, which then discharges to the pond. There’s a little line that represents the pond normal water level at the bottom. And once that water level within the pond builds up to a certain elevation, it then allows discharge to the west out a secondary pipe. The elevation of that pipe is a foot and a half or so above the normal water level of the pond. Laufenburger: So what you’re saying is that the water that goes into the pond will pass over the opening to that discharge pipe. Craig Schlichting: It goes down into the structure and then off to the east. Laufenburger: Okay. So the only reason that it would go into that discharge pipe is if the water level goes up above what was it, the 901. Something like that. Craig Schlichting: It goes above the 10 year event or whatever. Laufenburger: 10 year event, okay. Craig Schlichting: Yeah. 902 or something where it’s set at. Laufenburger: Okay. Okay, now I understand. Thank you. Papke: Any other questions for the engineer? If not, thank you very much. If there’s someone from the public that would like to come up and comment on this project, please do so. Step up to the podium and state your name and address for the record. Kyle Tidstrom: Kyle Tidstrom. I’m the property immediately to the west of Al, and my concern was just how much grading was going to be done on the lake lot because there’s been a river running between Al and mine since before I built in, we cut ground in ’94 and I’m more worried about where the water drains between Lot 2, Block 1 and mine than what goes into that other drainage pond. So can anybody, where’s that map? Where’s that map? Yeah, right here. It’s the break point. Where it breaks here. You know everything, there’s a break where everything flows this way and then there’s a break where stuff’s going to flow this way and we’ve talked a lot about everything that’s going to flow this way and we haven’t talked anything about what’s going to flow this way. If it doesn’t change we’re good because we watched for 2 years, and I know that this water runs right there and we bermed this so that it couldn’t get straight to the 8 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 lake, but if the grade changes a lot here, then it’s going to change the dynamics of that so I’m more concerned about what’s going this way than what’s coming this way. Fauske: Chairman Papke, if I could answer his question. I certainly, I would really like to meet with you after the meeting I can show you some more detailed maps but to give you a general answer is, the lake front lot that they are creating, it’s proposed as a custom graded lot which indicates that he’s, the person purchasing the property will be grading the property for the building. For the home. So he’s not showing any grading on that property. And the remainder of the site, they are showing the back of those, of the four lots on the west side of the proposed street would drain to that area but unfortunately at the top of my head I can’t answer you specifically the area currently draining there and the area proposed but I do believe it’s similar is not less. Kyle Tidstrom: Yeah, I’m not at all worried about the top floor. That’s…wondering how it’s going to affect… Al Klingelhutz: I’d like to ask the engineer how much some of the water that’s running down past Tidstrom’s and my property will be turned over to the holding pond. I would say 70% of that water is running down that way now. Will go into the holding pond. Kyle Tidstrom: I’m not quite visualizing how that can happen, putting in a 20 foot wide bituminous road. I don’t know how…run 70% more. It just stays the way it is. That’s no problem… Craig Schlichting: Maybe if we could zoom in on the map I have on the table here. In terms of what’s going to happen in this area, this driveway will still currently drain as it does now with the addition of the bituminous, and as Al mentioned. Kyle Tidstrom: That’s the current driveway location just…asphalt. Craig Schlichting: Correct. In lieu of adding two driveways…reduce the overall impact of that, those two lots. What was coming there in the existing situation, there’s quite a large lean-to or shed at the front of the property as well as all of these…back yards of the southern 4 lots. What we are doing as a part of this 12 inch overflow pipe is there will be catch basins that semi pick up drainage in the back yards that will then connect to that same system off to the west. So that will reduce some of that flow and we’ve been required to reduce or meet the existing rates going down your swale, which is meeting the normal requirements of the city so. Kyle Tidstrom: What are these elevations right here? I can’t see the numbers on these different things. Does this grade run this way as it does now or is the grade coming back this way? Craig Schlichting: It runs as it does. Kyle Tidstrom: It’s going to run as it does now. So you’re hoping that the flow from these is going to go that way. These will just stay the way it is. 9 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 Craig Schlichting: The design is to take the front half of the house along with the driveways and the street to the pond. So then you have the back half of the house and inbetween the houses that will swale to this swale on the west property line, some of which will be collected with the storm sewer and off to the west before getting to the lake. Undestad: And you said there will be a catch basin in that back yard? Craig Schlichting: Yeah, you can see it on this drawing, which is pretty small but that’s part of that. Undestad: That will pick up a lot of that water and some of the front. Craig Schlichting: Yeah, we have to turn the corner anyway to bend that catch basin off to the west so we just put a grade or inlet on that. Keefe: So is the water runoff going to be greater or less? Craig Schlichting: Less. Keefe: It will be? Craig Schlichting: Yeah, the idea is to send it to this pond and wetland complex which we’ve excavated to create more storage than what’s there now as well as just slow things down. Dillon: So is the concern that the neighbor had a 100 year event concern or an everyday concern? Craig Schlichting: It sounds like the concern is what’s existing now that we don’t exceed that because it’s currently an issue for him. Kyle Tidstrom: We built where it was because we watched it for 2 ½ years. Mike and I watched it and…because he’s traveling but before we built we allowed Lecy to go in and he took some of the silt fencing and stuff out and it just ran and silt eroded into the lake and we know exactly where that runs and it runs right on the edge of my asphalt that goes down below, but we’ve got it all, it’s bermed. It’s done. Nothing’s going to get in the lake from there as long as it stays the way it is. Sounds like it’s going to get less so. But it runs strong in the spring and it runs strong in the, in big rains and right now I think a lot of that, we’re getting run through there Al, it comes from 101 all the way through right now and what you guys are seeing is, you’re getting, with the new road design, you’re going to try to route the stuff that’s coming off the highway past your garden and down through that low spot to try and create… Al Klingelhutz: I’ll go east the way I understand it to the holding pond. All the addition lots that are there will be…holding pond, except your’s and mine. Papke: Okay. Thank you. Those were good questions. Yes please. If you would step up to the podium. State your name and address for the record. 10 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 Paul Rosstein: My name is Paul Rosstein. I’m a resident of Eden Prairie. 9492 Painters Ridge, Eden Prairie is my address. I am the gentleman that is considering purchasing the lakeshore lot from the Klingelhutz’s in the development, and a couple of questions that I have is, when you look at Lot 3, which is this lot, and you look at all of the elevation change and my concern is what happens in this area here? I have 5 little children and I’d like them to you know use this lot so there will be some grading on that property. We have not submitted our plan to the city yet, but you know the grade as you see it here we are going to propose that it be altered so at least it’s somewhat flat enough where if you kick a soccer ball, it doesn’t run down into your driveway every time they kick it. So we are, we would propose that there would be some leveling out. Certainly it wouldn’t be flat because of the dramatic change in elevation from here to here but there would be some proposed grading that we would submit. My question is, with it’s severe slope here, what happens in this area here in April and May and then in those situations where we get a lot of rain? Fauske: Mr. Papke if I could answer the question. With your grading, with your building permit it’s typically where you indicate what grades you’re planning to achieve with your lot. Based on what you described, the slopes that they’re proposing there are a little bit steeper than what’s out there right now, just to kind of give you a visualization. As far as creating a flat area there, we would certainly work with you with your building permit but we would make some recommendations on minimum slopes that you may want to look at keeping through that area to make sure that the drainage continues towards Lake Susan. Certainly you know there could certainly be some times where it could, you’d have a little bit of standing water and you’d have to be cognizant of that when you’re doing your final grade but we would certainly work with you to try to achieve what you’d like to. Paul Rosstein: Okay. So if I may just ask one more question. I understand that in the months of April and May when we get a lot of melt and you know the ground is saturated, that that’s going to be probably a soggy area. My question is, you know it’s the middle of July and we get a couple back to back pretty good rains. Is this area here going to be pretty much untouchable for a week until that dries out or will it be drained well enough, running down wherever it’s going to run or pool elsewhere or am I going to, we’ve all been in a situation where we’ve seen standing water for a week or two and it smells and it’s unsightly and grass doesn’t grow very well and weeds tend to pop up and I haven’t noticed any of that in the current condition of Al’s property but my concern is once we start making all these modifications, I have some reservations about how soggy and soft that area’s going to be. Papke: Sir, I think what the city engineer was indicating, and what the discussion has indicated is that you. Al Klingelhutz: I don’t think it could have been too bad because I cut the grass into, every summer. Papke: The amount of water flowing towards the lake has to be. Al Klingelhutz: …right after every rain… 11 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 Papke: If the amount of water running towards the lake is less than or equal to what it is today, at that point it’s going to be up to you. I mean what the city engineer was indicating, you know you’re going to custom grade your lot. You’re going to be in control of those slopes and the city is going to make recommendations for you as to how to best mitigate those, but ultimately you know you’re in control. You’re, you know the destiny of your lot is up to you. We can’t answer what that future is going to look like until you come in with a grading plan. Kyle Tidstrom: Could I address that just for a little bit? We’ve got a drain tile in there that runs. Papke: Sir, if you’d stay over to the podium over there and maybe indicate on the overhead. Kyle Tidstrom: Kyle Tidstrom: There’s a drain tile that comes and actually you know I think Dave and Lee worked with you. It goes across my line onto your’s and that tile runs from about right here. Right down and all the way down somewhere north of my house. And there is a little area there that’s wet but the grass never dies and it’s probably when I look at it, Al where…it’s probably 30-40 feet wide and 80-90 feet long and I don’t know if you can fill that in enough and you guys might be able to see it, to put enough fill in there but somewhere that water’s going to go and it’s either got to try to pick up in that tile and you know when you grade it, try to hook into that tile. I don’t know. Al Klingelhutz: …grading your property about 2 feet on the opposite side here. Kyle Tidstrom: You know I thought we were going to be going downhill into the house. Well we built the house… Papke: If you’d like to have a conversation between the two of you offline, that’s fine. If you would like to address something to the commission. Kyle Tidstrom: So I guess I was just trying to address your question on that. I don’t think we’re ever going to be completely dry between us but I don’t think it’s a huge issue but. Papke: Is there anyone else from the public that would like to speak on this proposal tonight? Anybody else have anything to say? If so, step up to the podium. Going once. Going twice. Okay, with that I close the public hearing and bring it back to the commissioners for discussion. Dan, we’ll start with you. Keefe: Well I don’t think there’s a lot to discuss here. I like the proposal. I think it works pretty well. I think it’s pretty well thought out. Papke: Mark. Undestad: Yeah, I agree with Dan. I think we’ve covered pretty much all the concerns out here and everything seems to make sense and Alyson and the drainage was an issue but it seems to work too so, no. I think it’s a good project. 12 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 Dillon: You know I think most everything works pretty well. You know I was reading over all this stuff and I guess I did not realize the, and maybe it’s we’re talking about twice in a 100 year event and you’re like you know very, it seems to have taken on more of a significance than maybe it should for some…so I guess so the thing of it is, I mean new information came to light just like yesterday or today and we hadn’t had a chance to process on that and it doesn’t seem like the city staff’s had a chance to process fully on that. While there seems to be some indications that you know the solution as proposed is workable, it’s not guaranteed or iron clad or anything like that so I would be inclined to support this with the proviso that everything works out between the water flow stuff and neighbors and all that thing too. Laufenburger: I have no question. They’ve all been answered. Thank you. Thomas: I’m good with the project as well. Papke: Okay. It sounds like everyone has had their issues addressed and I think Kevin you bring up a good point. What I would ideally like to see the commission do is perhaps attach another condition here to the extent that the developer work with this new proposal that wasn’t part of our packet to make sure that the city engineering staff you know agrees and does their calculations and make sure that we don’t have any further issues, so with that I’ll entertain a motion. Keefe: I’ll make a motion the Chanhassen Planning Commission recommends the City Council approve a seven lot subdivision with a variance for access off a private street for the Lots 1 and 2, Block 1, Apple Tree Estates, plans prepared by E.G. Rud & Sons, Inc. and Plowe Engineering, Inc., dated 01/29/09, revised 2/25/09 subject to conditions 1 through 45. And somebody want to make a friendly amendment or. Dillon: Plus. Keefe: Plus. You want to do plus? Dillon: I’ll try to state it as succinctly as possible. Plus the city staff work with the applicant to make sure that the new proposal for drainage meets everyone’s requirements. Keefe: I accept that. Papke: Is there a second? Laufenburger: Second. Papke: Is there a concern? Fauske: Chair Papke, if I may have clarification. Papke: Yes. 13 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 Fauske: Just so staff has clear direction. On page 14 there are two conditions that I’d like to bring to the Planning Commission’s attention. They’d be conditions 21 and 23. 21 reading the plans and hydrology calculations must be revised so that the pond will hold back-to-back 100-year storms. And condition 23 about the piped EOF. Does that satisfy the requirements or is the friendly amendment a better direction for staff? Papke: I guess I would prefer to see the amendment in here in addition to this because these conditions were written without the benefit of the new plan and so I’d just like to make sure that that’s called out specifically. Fauske: Great. Thank you for clarification. Keefe: Amendment is accepted. Papke: Is there a second? Thomas: Second. Keefe moved, Thomas seconded that the Planning Commission recommends that the City Council approve a seven-lot, subdivision with a Variance for access off a private street for Lots 1 and 2, Block 1, Apple Tree Estates, plans prepared by E. G. Rud & Sons, Inc. and Plowe Engineering, Inc., dated 01/29/09, revised 2/25/09, subject to the following conditions: 1.Additional six-inch address numbers will be required at the entrance to the driveway of Lots 1 and 2, Block 1, where it comes off the cul-du-sac. 2.Additional six-inch address numbers will be required at the driveway where it splits between Lots 1 and 2, Block 1. exact 3.Contact Chanhassen Fire Marshal for locations and numbering requirements. 4.No burning permits will be issued for trees to be removed. Trees and scrubs must be removed from site or chipped. 5.A three-foot clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants, and nothing be placed in MN Fire Code Sec. 508.5.4. front of the outlets to hinder firefighting operations. 6.Fire apparatus access roads and water supply for fire protection is required to be installed. Such protection shall be installed and made serviceable prior to and during time of MN Fire construction except when approved alternate methods of protection are provided. Code Sec. 501.4 7.Temporary street signs are required to be installed as soon as construction begins. Signs shall be of an approved size, weather resistant and be maintained until replaced by permanent MN Fire CodeSec.505.2. signs. 14 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 8.A 30- foot wide private easement, cross-access and maintenance agreement must be submitted for the private street. 9.Final grading plans and soil reports must be submitted to the Inspections Division before building permits will be issued. 10.Retaining walls over four feet high require a building permit and must be designed by an Engineer registered in the State of Minnesota. 11.Each lot must be provided with a separate sewer and water service. 12.Demolition permits must be obtained before demolishing any structures. 13.Existing home(s) affected by the new street/cul-de-sac will require address changes. 14.The existing shed on proposed Lots 4, 5 and 6, Block 1, Apple Tree Estates must be removed concurrently with the installation of the street improvements. 15.Full park fees in lieu of parkland dedication and/or trail construction shall be collected as a condition of approval for Apple Tree Estates. The park fees shall be collected in full for all new homes at the rate in force upon final plat submission and approval. 16.Applicant shall remove Colorado spruce from the planting list and transfer the quantity to other evergreens in the Plant Schedule or add a third evergreen species. A revised planting list shall be submitted to the city. 17.All trees proposed to be preserved shall be protected by tree preservation fencing. Fencing shall be installed prior to site development or grading and excavation for homes on each lot. Any trees shown as preserved on plans dated 1/15/09 and revised 2/25/09 must be replaced at a rate of 2:1 diameter inches if removed. 18.The applicant shall locate the existing row of trees along the east side of Apple Tree Lane north of Lot 1, Block 2 relative to the proposed retaining wall and develop a plan to protect the trees. The survey and plan shall be submitted to the city for approval. 19.The building permit survey for Lot 2, Block 1 shall include the tree survey for the lot. Any additional tree removal on the lot greater than what is shown on subdivision plans dated1/15/09, revised 2/25/09, will need prior approval from the city and additional plantings may be required. 20.The applicant shall revise the landscape plan to show river birch and balsam fir or black spruce near the wetland rather than red oak and white spruce. 21.The plans and hydrology calculations must be revised so that the pond will hold back-to-back 100-year storms. 15 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 22.Correct the location and elevation of the wetland emergency overflow. 23.A piped EOF is required for the wetland. The developer’s engineer shall examine possible locations for this connection and work with and obtain the necessary permission from the property owner/agency. 24.The driveway grades for Lot 3, Block 1 must be adjusted so that there is positive drainage along the entire driveway. 25.A building permit for Lot 2, Block 1 may be issued prior to installation of the public street and utilities. A final Certificate of Occupancy will not be granted until the public utilities are in and the first lift of asphalt has been installed on the street. 26.The developer must submit a plan showing how access to the existing home on Lot 1, Block 1 and the proposed home on Lot 2, Block 1, will be maintained throughout construction. 27.The top and bottom of wall elevations must be shown on the plans. 28.The plan must show the existing trees on the property to the east of the development, adjacent to the proposed retaining wall. The plans must be revised so that the off-site trees to the east of the development are not impacted with the retaining wall construction. 29.The developer is required to obtain the appropriate permits from MnDOT to construct the local street connection. 30.The developer must notify the affected property owners a minimum of seven days before mobilizing to complete the sanitary sewer connection. 31.A security will be collected with the final plat to ensure that the disturbed area will be restored to the current condition. 32.The storm sewer between the public street and the pond must be shifted to either the north or south property line of Lot 1, Block 2 to eliminate the drainage and utility easement through the property. 33.Any excavation within the wetland cannot result in a maximum inundation greater than six (6) feet in depth. 34.The finished bottom of the wetland shall be undulating providing varying depths. 35.Side slopes shall be no greater than 5:1 on average and no greater that 3.5:1 in any location. 36.Bottom of the wetland shall have a minimum 0.8 feet of organic soil materials or otherwise hydric soils. 16 Planning Commission Meeting - March 17, 2009 37.A vegetation establishment plan must be developed and implemented for the wetland and the buffer area. In the event that no excavation occurs within the wetland, a vegetation management plan need only be developed and implemented for the buffer area. 38.Sequencing of erosion control measures need to be incorporated into the plan. This includes placement of perimeter controls prior to earth disturbing activities and excavation of the pond during the initial grading activities to be used as a temporary basin. 39.Silt fence must be included down gradient of all exposed soils. 40.Inlet protection shall be required within 24 hours of setting the structures on site. 41.Erosion and sedimentation BMPs must be placed to protect the structures in Waters Edge Drive. 42.A concrete washout area needs to be shown on the plan and must comply with the NPDES permit requirements. 43.A rock construction entrance, at least 75 feet in length, must be indicated on the plan. 44.An NPDES Permit will be required for the project. This must be obtained prior to commencement of any earth disturbing activities. 45.The pond and wetland should be put into an Outlot. This will result in a further reduction of SWMP fees. That portion of Lot 1, Block 2 east of the westerly normal water level elevation for the stormwater pond shall be included in a separate Outlot to facility pond maintenance.” 46. That city staff work with the applicant to make sure that the new proposal for drainage meets everyone’s requirements. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Commissioner Thomas noted the verbatim and summary minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated March 3, 2009 as presented. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: None. Chairman Papke adjourned the Planning Commission meeting at 7:50 p.m. Submitted by Kate Aanenson Community Development Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 17