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2p Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL ME~G DECEMBER 2, 2002 Mayor Jansen called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. CQUNCIL MEMBER~ PRF~ENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte, and Councilman Peterson STAFF PRE~ENT: Todd Gerhardt, Justin Miller, Teresa Burgess, Todd Hoffman, Kate Aanenson, Bruce DeJong, and Mark Littfin PUBLIC PRESEt: Julianne Ortman Jill Madore Brian Lundquist Don Rye Curt Robinson Todd Michels Corey Kohnen Jerry Eck Jeff Seiler Tom Furlong Dick Hauser Terry Nelson Tom Workman Mark Senn Laurie Engelen Mark Lundgren Janet & Jerry Paulsen Gary Delaney 8698 Chanhassen Hills Drive North 381 Deerfoot Court 7281 Conestoga Court 957 Santa Vera Drive 202 West 77~ Street 2436 Highover Trail 405 Highland Drive 2510 Bridle Creek Trail 6511 Gray Fox Curve 1841 .Ringneck Drive 7750 Crimson Bay Road 161 South Shore Court 181 South Shore Court 7160 Willow View Cove 11825 78e" Street, Waconia 3075 Autumn Way, Chaska 7305 La_redo Drive County Commissioner Elect TRUTH IN TAXATION PUBLIC HEARING. Mayor Jansen: We're here this evening to hear staff's budget presentation of the numbers that they've been reviewing with us over the last month and give us some of the detail of the general city information as well as department information so with that I will open it up for the staff report please. Todd Gerhardt: I'd like to introduce Bruce DeJong, our Finance Director who has put together a power point presentation on our budget for 2003. Bruce. Bruce DeJong: Good evening Mayor Jansen, council members and members of the public. I'd like to kind of walk you through why we're here tonight for the Truth in Taxation meeting. Give you a little bac~und on how we put our budget together. What's required of this process, and then start talking about some of the numbers that the Truth in Taxation statements that were mailed out a while back. There's a few things that we have to do according to state law in doing this. We need to present and discuss the proposed budget for next year. Mayor Jansen: Can you maybe pull the microphone just atitch closer. Thanks. Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 Bruce DeJong: We need to discuss the proposed tax levy for next year. We're going to talk about some of the major changes to the levy and the budget, and then we're going to open it up for citizen comment and input. Then what we have to do is, tonight is not the final step in this process. We are going to have another meeting because we cannot by state law adopt a budget or tax levy tonight. We have to do that no more than, or no less than 5 days later. So our budget process really started out back in July when department directors submitted their preliminary estimates. Those budgets were reviewed by myself and Mr. Gerhardt and presented to the City Council in August for some preliminary basis. Then by September 150' we have to adopt a preliminary tax levy so that the County can put together the Truth in Taxation statements. This is an amount that we cannot exceed. We can be cut underneath that amount. We can reduce our tax levy but unless there's been a special referendum election, we cannot increase our tax levy above that amount. Then during October and November we've had detailed budget meetings with the City Council, and now we're having the Truth in Taxation hearing. Next week Monday we'll have our budget adoption. The expenditures in the 2003 budget have increased. General government is up 3.1%. You can see law enforcement's up 8%. Public works up 16.5%. Community development up 8.2% and parks and recreation up 5.4%. Our revenues. You can see that in the case of most of our revenues, they do not increase very much. A lot of that is due to the current economic conditions. We are not predicting much increase in economic activity next year. Our largest source of revenues outside of the property taxes are license and permit fees. Those are generally for building new buildings that are going up, and while we expect that we are going to be pretty close to those projections next year, we do not have a lot of developable property available right now, so 2003-2004 are going to need looking at opening up the MUSA area down south of Lyman Boulevard in order to keep those revenues up. The remaining revenues are intergovernmental revenue. That is state aids for streets and police and fire generally. Charges for services are park and recreation fees and other user fees that we assess for people who want the city to provide services. Fines and penalties are generally traffic tickets and ordinance violations. And our other revenue is pfirnarily our' interest earnings on our fund balance. That leaves the property tax at 13.5% increase over last year. Now the number that we've talked about is, and the amount that we have levied has gone up 20 ½%. The reason that I'm showing 13 ½% is because for 2002 we received additional money from excess tax increment payments that was used to balance the levy for this year. Just a little graphic on what's happened with our general fund expenditures. You can see that it's been increasing steadily. Part of the reason for that is that we've been consolidating of other activities into the general fund. This year's increase is primarily driven by a large increase in our street maintenance program. We included an extra $280,000 there so that we can do some significant street reconstruction as opposed to the patchwork and sealcoating that was done primarily in the past. What are the factors that increase the budget for 2003? Well total expenditures increased by $705,000. It's driven by personnel costs at 4 1/2 %. The general salary increase is 2 ½%, but we've experienced increase in insurance rates of 10% for health insurance. And the other part is driven by, we've got actually 3 new people included in the budget. Three full time positions. One in finance department, one in the street department, and one in the community development department. Materials and supplies increase is estimated at 3.3%, roughly following inflation. Contractual services increasing 19%, and we've got multiple things in there. As I mentioned before, the increase for the street maintenance. We also have costs of operating the library. Our liability insurance is expected to increase dramatically. Rates upwards of 20% primarily based off of 9/11 risk factors and the insurance companies trying to bring their liability back up. An increase in our police contract of approximately 8%. And increases in recreation program.q primly in the self supporting area where those are offset by revenues. The capital outlays have decreased 71%. We've moved all of the computer purchases, the MIS equipment into the capital replacement program, so those are no longer the general fund. That leaves us with a total expenditure increase of 8.7%. Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Bruce if you wouldn't mind, before we get too far along. When you mentioned the additional 3 full time employees. We're looking at a half of year, correct? Bruce DeJong: Two of those are half year positions. We're not looking to hire someone until summer next year. Those are in the stxeet maintenance and in the finance department. The one employee that will be full time starting as soon as possible in Sanuary is the code enforcement, the housing inspector, so that would be for the rental housing program... Mayor Jansen: And the majority of that is funded through the rental licensing program, correct? Bruce DeJong: That's primaffiy offset through the rental licensing. It's expected to generate approximately $40,000 a year. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you. Bruce DeJong: Now do we have some fund balance? Certainly we do. A little history on our general fund balance. You can see that it jumped dramatically in '99 and 2000. Those were driven primarily by building permit revenues that came in much higher than expected. We have since remedied that by raising our esfimam on building permit revenues substantially. We were back in the $700,000 range. We're now up to over $1.2 million with the building permit revenues that we're anticipating. So we've gotten much closer on our estimates of how much revenue's going to be coming in. Now we do have a fund balance policy that the council has followed for the past several yeacrs, and that is that we will keep on hand 50 percent.of the next year's tax revenues and state aids. The reason that we do that is because when you run this budget for the general fund, there isn't much money until the property taxes come in. We have a fiscal year that starts in January, and as you know, property taxes aren't paid until May 15m so they don't actually come to us from the County until all the way in June. And the same thing for the second half where those are paid in October 15t~. Those don't come to us until Nove~ and December. So we need money in this fund in order to cashflow ourselves until those revenues come in. The amount that's in excess of the fund balance policy has been shown as being applied towards the TIF deficits that we're facing in the next two years. That's appro~tirrmt~ly 1.5 millioil dollars so there is a use for that money. Just talking a little bit, I think this is'just it recap of what we do. The other thing that you've heard from several sources, not just me. Including Mark Ruff, our Financial Advisor, and from Dave Mol our Auditor, that we need to keep approximately 50 percent. They would like to see some of that dedicated as a contingency fund in case of emergencies, and that bond rating agencies like to see a substantial fund balance, and that is part of the reason that we received the upgrade in our bond rating when we sold the library bond. Is that we do keep a healthy fund balance. Our debt service is fairly dramatic over the course of the next couple of years. We've got in excess of $15 million worth of bond payments that we need to make in the next 15 months approximately. Our TIF deficit, when that district is done in 2004, when the last debt is paid off, is going to be someplace between $6.1 million and $7.3 million. Now we've had some other discussions previously, and identified some sources that can pay part of that deficit, but a tax levy will be required to be paying for some of that. I don't think that there's a reasonable way that we can avoid having some of our tax levy go towards this. And the debt levy increase in 2004 will be mitigated somewhat by the downtown TIF district coming back on the tax rolls. Rather than being dedicated towards tax increment payments, that will come back as general property taxes. You can see on thi.~ projection that we do have a spike in debt service in 2004. That was recommended as part of the debt study. That's the $700,000 that we've talked about coming and applying towards our...so after that, in 2005-2006 it starts dropping off fairly dramatically and the current debt schedule shows us down to about a million dollars of debt payments a year starting in 2008. The net tax levy affects the general fund tax Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 levy is up about $1,100,000. That's the 24.5% that I talked to you about previously. The expenditures are up $705,000. The difference being the amount of the excess increment that we receive this year is kind of a one time revenue source that we use to balance our budget. The debt service levy is actually down $136,000. Council had cut that in the preliminary go around so this budget has already been cut somewhat, or the tax levy has been cut. Because basically the City Council wanted to not hold out a large increase that would be cut later and unnecessarily excite the residents. So the total tax levy increase is $983,000. That's up 12.8% in total, and that is roughly what people are seeing on their tax increases. Based on some new information that we've just received fi.om Carver County, these are some increases that people are likely to see on their tax bills. This is factoring in an increase in home value of 8 ½%, which is approximately the range that most properties in Chanhassen saw the last year, according to the Carver County Assessor. That would lead to some dollar figure increases that are shown on here. I won't go through them individually I guess but suffice it to say, it is a substantial tax increase and our staff recommendation is to adopt the tax levy and the budget as shown next Monday and continue looking for options to continue to fund the TIF deficits. So that's my presentation. I'd be happy to take any questions or if you'd like to open up the public hearing. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. The only point that maybe we need to clarify just a little bit was when you were touched upon the, our debt. Our current debt, and you quoted that our TIF deficit would be between 6.1 million and 7.4 million. That's the amount after we've applied all of our current fund balance, as well as some other balances that you've reflected to the council could conceivably be used to try to reduce that. So it's above and beyond applying what we have currently in cash, correct? Bruce DeJong: That is correct Mayor Jansen. That includes applying the $5.4 million that's in the historic preservation trust fund and applying some other funds that we have that may be available. Some in our closed bond fund, and some in a couple of others such as the environmental fund so. Mayor Jansen: Okay, because what you've emphasized to council is any reduction that we make in the levy by using our fund balances would then exaggerate that deficit. If we were to take cash that we have on hand, which we were originally trying to consider doing, until you re-did the debt service and showed us where we're actually heading. If we take that cash and we use it now, we're increasing that already 6 to 7 million dollar deficit. Bruce DeJong: That's correct. Anything that happens to reduce the tax levy, or to use cash to fund some current operations, will simply put us farther in the hole with our deficit situation. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any questions for staff before I open this up for the public hearing, council? Councilman Peterson: Bruce the only question I have is tagging along Linda's question. On the 10/7 estimate we had a 2.9 million potential deficit at the low end and a 4.1 on the high end so I'm lost in those two different numbers. Bruce De. long: At the meeting that we had a week ago, I showed you those things that were actual cash on hand and that's where the deficit comes from. The 10/7 estimate, the one that I gave you at the beginning of October, really includes speculation on my part that we would use some future tax revenues. The $700,000 increase in the debt service for 2004. Some of the money that we have earmarked for some other programs that we may or may not levy such as the environmental fund. If we don't incorporate those into the general fund, then we are going to Troth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 have a larger deficit. So talking about the 'deficit I guess as I see it existing, with the current cash resources we have, if we continue to apply some other resources that will come about in the next 2 years, then our deficit is going to be closer to the 3 million, 4 million dollar mark. Councilman Peterson: But either of the numbers you choose to use, there's still speculation involved and some assumptions of revenues and expenses, ete, etc, correct? Bruce DeJong: Correct. Councilman Peterson: That's it. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions? Councilman Ayotte: With respect to what we might anticipate coming up from the state, what sort of adversities are we going to be realizing from there which would potentially influence what we decide to do down the road? Brace DeJong: The state has, as I'm sure you're well aware and probably most of the members of our audience, is facing about a 3 billion dollar deficit. We'll have a better idea here in a couple of days exactly how much that is because I believe the Department of Revenue will put out a new forecast sometime this week. But certainly as part of the state dealing with their deficit situation, they're going to be looking at aids to cities and counties and school districts as part of that. Aids to cities I think are roughly 12 percent of the state's budget and they're go'rog to have to cut those in order to deal with their own problem, so I'm estimating that we could have as much as $356,000 that's on the line to be cut. That is the homestead credit that's applied based on property value and that includes the local government aid that we receive. So next year we could be facing a deficit situation to the tune of about $300,000 in the general fund with the existing budget. Talked previously with the City Council at some of other budget discussions that, you know even if you do decrease the budget, the 'expenditure budget that I would recommend not decreasing the levy amount to allow us to have some flexibility to deal with those cuts that will be coming. Part of our problem is that the state has a budget cycle that's tied in with the school district so they have a fiscal year that starts July 1 and ends June 30"'. So they make their budget decisions for the next year and then finish their legislative session by June. Our problem is that we've already started our year and really can't make those kind of budget changes after we know what the state's going to do. Councilman Ayotte: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Any other questions? Councilman Boyle: My question's been asked. Councilman Labatt: Yeah, mine too. Mayor Jansen: Okay. One of the other things that you shared with us at our last meeting was a comparison to the other key financial strategy cities as far as the, our levy limits and where we are compared to what the state would deem to be our levy limit. Do you have any of that information with you this evening that you can share with us again here for the public? Bruce DeJong: Certainly. I'm going off memory, but the key financial strategies is a process that we're going through to try and set some priorities as far as a council and staff as to how we're Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 going to fund our operations and what projects are going to be priorities for the next few years. In facilitating that with Ehlers, we've gone through and done some comparison to other similarly sized and situated cities and what we've found is that of those cities, and there's 9 of them, that there are only 3 of them that are not at their levy ILmit. One of those is under by $10,000, which is really just a token amount. The other one, Farmington I believe is under by $700,000. And then there's Chanhassen who, we will be under our levy limit by $650,000 for 2003 with no change to this levy as proposed. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor I'll just add that Prior Lake is approximately $300,000 below their levy limit. The rest of the communities are at their maximum amount, and have been levying additional dollars forecasting a state cut in aids in the future. Mayor Jansen: Okay. At our preliminary hearing when we went through this, we of course had hoped that we might be able to come up with some additional cuts, which is what we've been working on over the last several months. Cm'renfly you've already noted that we cut the $200,000, and cut that from the debt levy in an attempt to bring at least that portion of the levy down leaving our budget balanced. So we've already dipped in to $200,000 of the cash reserves to try to bring that debt levy down. We were looking for an additional $180,000 until as I mentioned, you brought forward an updated look at our debt situation and the TIF situation. We had of course been hoping that that report might look a little better than it, ended up looking. So at this point, as you've directed us, and you briefly mentioned I believe to Councilman Peterson's question, or Councilman Ayotte, though we would like to look for additional cuts, and we've challenged staff to find cuts within the budget, you're recommending that we take those cuts, if and when found, which they'll have to be if the state cuts funding, and apply it after the levy's set so that you're able to cover all of the expenses with the current levy and then reduce the budget as you end up with your revenues reduced and balance it. Bruce DeJong: That's correct Mayor Jansen. Alright. If there aren't any other questions then I will open this up for the public hearing. You are welcome to step forward and give us any additional feedback that you would like to about the budget this evening. Pose any questions if we don't have answers for you this evening, we'll certainly get back to you with those answers so if you would step forward to the podium and at that time state your name and your address for the record, I would appreciate it. So with that, whoever would like to go first. Don Rye: Thank you Mayor, Council members. My name's Don Rye. I live at 957 Santa Vera Drive. It's the Oak Hill development up behind Byerly's and Office Max. I suspect as you know, that is in a tax increment district and hearing the presentation regarding deficits I guess I've got a couple of questions. The tax increment tax portion of, which is basically the entire tax, increased by 26 ~% and that was in the column under due to other factors. Now I know a portion of that stems from valuation increase, which was about 10%. I guess my question is, what is the other 15 or so percent added onto that? What is that intended to do? Bruce DeJong: As you noted, pan of that is the increase in property value and the other is just the increase in our levy. Don Rye: Is that dedicated specifically toward the TIF deficit? Bruce DeJong: Yes. All property that's inside the TIF district, any increment which is the amount that was above the tax that was generated when we set the district up back in the 70's, any amount above and beyond that comes to us twice a year as tax increment payments and that is dedicated to payment of our tax increment debt. Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 Don Rye: The income stream that that was to produce though, if that was set up back in the 70's, I would assume was based on 70 values. So I'm wondering why it's increased that much~ Bruce DeJong: Well, quite honestly this is the type of tax increment district that was not required to be completely budgeted and they were left open and those plans were modified as late as 1994. So we made some...anticipating that it would be paid off by the cashflows that we could see at that point. What's happened in the meantime is that the property tax has changed dramatically. The rates on commerciaVindustdal properties have gone down si~m~ificanfly, and some of the property tax is now being directed specifically towards a state wide tax on commercial industrial properties, which is specifically for school aid and that is no longer included in our calculations. Our increment in the district dropped by approximately 2.3 million dollars just in the last year. Don Rye: Excuse me, is this, is Oak I-Fill a separate district or is that all part of the downtown district? Brace DeJong: It's all part of the downtown district. So, but due to those property tax changes, Justin Miller put together a calculation to see where we would have been had the property taxes just simply stayed at the same level they were fi'om 1998. If that had been the case we would have been $5.4 million ahead in that district and essentially would have wiped out most of the deficit. Don Rye: Would it be fair to say that the Oak Hill development is gene, rating an excess increment based on current TIF plan? Bruce DeJong: Well excess increment. I guess I wouldn't say excess increment. It's generating tax increment and what's considered excess increment by the state is mounts that are. Don Rye: Beyond what you need to pay off the obligation. Bruce DeJong: Beyond what we need to pay off the obligation. So since we're in a deficit situation, there really are no excess increments. Don Rye: Well I can see that if it's all lumped in with the downtown. Todd Gerhardt: Sir, I just want to clarify one thing. You are not being taxed any more than if you were inside the district or outside the district. I just want to make sure you understand that. If you were in the district you'd pay the same amount. Don Rye: That was my concern that if thexe was some differential treatment being given. Todd Gerhardt: No. If your townhome was sitting a mile outside that district you'd pay the same amount. We are not levying the deficit against the downtown or in that TIF district. Don Rye: Alright, thank you. Todd Gerhardt: Yep. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Thanks for clarifying that Mr. Gex~t. Appreciate it. Curt Robinson: My name is Curt Robinson. I live at 202 West 77a~ Street. That was a good presentation. Thank you. I'm trying to understand, my tax statement says, and I'm looking at just Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 the City of Chanhassen portion, increase due to spending and that's 16.1% increase. Yet in your presentation you had an 8.7% increase due to spending. Increase in spending and I don't know what that difference is. Bruce DeJong: The way these statements are calculated is that they put together basically a no increase budget. Now if the levy were to stay exactly the same against the new property levy, the total tax capacity that's available, that's the calculation that shows the decrease, increase or decrease due to other factors. And then everything else becomes an increase due to spending. Kind of, I don't know that I have a great explanation for it, but the way it was explained to me by someone in the Department of Revenue is, there's, it's really missing a column because it calculates, if we had last year's taxes against this year's tax base, what would the dollar factor be. You know what would the increase or decrease be. And then anything above that they call it an increase due to spending. Curt Robinson: I see. Is the TIF expense included in that 8.7%? Bruce DeJong: No it is not. That is just our general fund. Ctm Robinson: Do you know what percentage that would be? Bruce DeJong: Well, like I had mentioned before. The TIF district is generating about $2.3 million less. That's actually an overall, in the sense of the city's revenues, that's an overall decrease of about 40% in TIF revenues. Todd Gerhardt: We haven't earmarked any levy as a part of this year's budget to go to the TIF deficit, so there's nothing in the budget dollar amount that is going to the TIF deficit. Curt Robinson: I see. Okay. Is the capital expenditures in that 8.7% included in that? Bruce DeJong: Yeah. The capital expenditures were primarily about $70,000 worth of computer related equipment. So it's a very small part of the overall general fund budget. Curt Robinson: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Anyone else with questions? Randy Raddatz: If I can get there. Mayor Jansen: No hurry. Randy Raddatz: Good evening. My name is Randy Raddatz. We live at 6340 Elm Tree Avenue in Chanhassen. I believe I heard Commissioner Ayotte say that, or he asked the question, you know what can the state essentially do for us. We are the state. We fell for this ruse 31 years ago when Wendy Anderson put the Minnesota Miracle on our backs and said let's reduce property taxes and let's have the state take care of it. And a mere couple years after that, we were faced with huge increases in spending at the local level because the state took over the property tax burden. In roughly 2001 we fell for it again, and our taxes, our property taxes went down. I suspect there weren't anywhere near as many people here a year ago as there are this evening. The problem is not tax per se, it's spending. Spending is out of control. We're looking at this completely backwards. I'm not exactly sure, what's the population growth in Chanhassen projected? 10% roughly. Troth in Taxation Hearing - Dece~r 2, 2002 Todd Gerhardt: We grow about 8% per year. Randy Raddatz: 8%, okay. You would think that there would be some efficiencies with population growth. Some so that hopefully if the population increase is roughly 8%, maybe we see a 5%, a 6% increase in spending. I will grant you that spending will increase somewhat greater than the rate of inflation simply because there are more people. However, how can spending be going up faster than the rate of population growth? It's unfathomable to think that you, like every other city, every other county, every other school district, have cut spending to the bone. Every one of you have. It's just amazing. You're all so efficient and yet spending goes up and up and up. And it's very frustrating as a taxpayer. I wonder how many people in the private sector can talk about their budgets that they were able to hold them to a 15% incteazse in spending. I'm, exactly. I'm in the private sector. I'm a financial person. If I proposed a 15% increase in spending, it would be the last one at that employer that I would be proposing that increase to. And yet people around here pat themselves on the back. I don't know if you think you're going to get streets named after you or what for spending but it's very ~fing as a taxpayer and I think you have to take a good ha_rd look at yourselves and realiT~ that at some point we have to get this under control. One other point I would like to make and that's in reference to the reserve. The more we increa~ spending, if we're putting a 50% reserve a~ide, guess what? Now we've got 150% increase relative to the spending. In other words, you know if you're looking at a 15% increase in spending, you're really looking at 22% ~e you've got to set more aside for the reserve. And I really think, you know in general you just have to quit saying the state, the federal government, can we get this from there. Can .we get this from here. You're getting it from us and we can't take it any more. Get your spending under control. We'll be glad to pay our taxes for necessary services but don't continue to waste our money, thank you. Mayor Jansen: Is there anyone else? Okay. Seeing no one. Jeff Seiler: I'm Jeff Seiler. I live at 6511 Gray Fox Curve and this is the firs~ time I spoke at a meeting like this so if I seem nervous it's because I am. Councilman Ayotte: You ough~ to be up here. JeffSeiler: What's that? Councilman Ayotte: I said you want to be nervous you ought to be up here. Jeff Seiler: Okay. Well I can understand how you could probably be nervous with a lot of people probably are upset about the amount of taxes that are going up. I just thought I'd share with you some of the, how your choices are affecting me on a personal level. Just to let you know that your choices are affecting, how it affects an individual person. My taxes are going up this year approximately 31.9% total. Or that's the city taxes. Some of that's because I did an addition last year on my house. My addition's approximately 11.33% of my assessed value this year. I made the mistake of falling for the trap that, one of the reasons I did do the addition was because the state said there's going to be property tax relief, so I figured I'll do this addition because my property taxes are going down and they're going to stay down because the~'s supposed to be property tax reform. Well, I fell for that. We had a big, I saw a big decrease in my taxes last year, and now this year they're basically hack to where they were before. I'm pretty confident between the city, the county and the school district, that the City of Chanhassen will be the number one taxed city in the metro area again. I think we fell to third or fourth place last year, but we are getting back to it. But as an elected official do you really think you can afford to keep Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 increasing people's taxes 20 to 30 percent a year? Do you honestly think that? I go, I'm with the other gentleman. I work in the private sector as well. You can't increase spending that much every year. You can't keep increasing government more than the rate of inflation. I mean you're a lot more than the rate of inflation so I just .wanted to share with you, you know that's some of my thoughts. That's how it's affecting us. My neighbors feel the same way. You have to get spending under control. I have one, I do have one question. I don't know if this is mae. This is from the Star Tribune yesterday. It's comparing tax levies of various counties and the towns, and in here it did say that Chanhassen's levy was approximately 8.61 million and Chaska's is approximately 2.3 million. Do you know if that's correct? Bruce DeJong: I'm sure that it probably is. Jeff Seiler: So given that they're, we're in the same county. We're within 3,000 people of each other. We both start with Cha. Mayor Jansen: Chaska actually has a different funding source so it is very difficult. Jeff Seiler: Yes. Why are they you know. Mayor Jansen: To compare them both. Jeff Seiler: 6.3 million less. Mayor Jansen: Exactly. Jeff Seiler: I mean as a citizen, you know I look at this you know, so I'm saying that if I moved to Chaska, I could pay a lot less taxes. Mayor Jansen: And I would encourage you, at some point to maybe have a conversation with Mr. DeJong. I don't know if you want to address some of the differences this evening but. Jeff Seiler: I mean do you think that that's a big difference? I mean 6 million dollars is a lot of money. Councilman Boyle: Well there's a reason for it. Mayor Jansen: It's tremendous, but what I'm saying is that there are reasons and you could take other communities similar to Chanhassen and do that comparison and their levies will be closer because there is a, there are significant reasons why Chaska's is lower than our' s. Jeff Seiler: Can you give just one as an example7 Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, we have an handout that we did for our key financial cities. Justin has a, or can make some additional copies. I think Nann can zoom in on it too. But of the 10-11 cities that we compared, we were probably the third lowest and we used Chaska in that comparison. So if you, can you zoom in on that Nann? Mayor Jansen: Is the farthest right column the one that you need her zoomed in on the most or? If you shift it over you might. Other direction. 10 Truth in Taxation Hearing - Dece~ 2, 2002 Todd Gerhardt: Chaska sits here at 19.84' and Chanhassen is right above them at 37.17. If you work in your bottom going up, Shoreview has a tax rate of 30.40. That's 8. We'll get to that one next. And Savage has a tax rate of 42.74. Prior Lake has a tax rate of 39. Oakdale has 42. Lino Lakes has 53. Inver Grove Heights has 45. Farmington has a rate of 48. Chanhassen again has one at 37. Champlin 42. And Andover at 33. Of those communities, Shoreview, Andover, and that's it. Andover, Shoreview and Chaska have lower tax rates than the City of Chanhassen. This column shows you why we see some of the disparities. These are total local government aids that each of those cities _receives. We receive $23,000 in local goveran~nt aid. The City of Andover gets $1.8 million. Champlin gets $1.9 million. Chanhassen $23,000. Chaska gets $466. Farmington $1.3. Inver Grove, a million 75. Lino Lakes, a million 9. Oakdale, a million 2. Jeff Seiler: Why is there such a discrepancy between them? Todd Gerhardt: It's home values. We have such a high end home value average, so the single family homes in town have a higher value than those communities. So we produce more in'taxes and the State has a formula that is going to make all cities alike. Every city of 22,000 population will have a budget of 8.6 million dollars. And they put levy limits on cities and give aid to those cities that cannot produce enough revenue to make all cities alike. So in Chanhassen we pay the full boat. We do not receive any aid. Every tax dollar that is spent here stays here. We don't receive any money from the state to help opem~ our facilities and our programs. So right now that's the program~ I believe in the next 2 years you will see those rates go up dramatically, and we will stay about the same in that 37 to 40 percent range, because the state will be c .u~dng those aids dramatically in June to try to help offset their deficit problem at the state level. Jeff Seiler: Hoping you understand the question from a citizen standpoint. I look at that and you're looking at $6 million difference to the town next door. It's quite a difference so thank you. Mayor Jansen: Absolutely understood. No, it was a very good question, and as you just heard, it's somewhat complicated as to the answer to that but no, we understand the. Jeff Seiler: I think the answer counted for 1.3 million of it roughly but there's still a lot more. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, the rest of it, they have a, they mn their own electrical utility in Chaska too. I mean it's a very well mn city but they also mn their electrical utility helps offset a lot of their different operations. We have NSP in town here, or Xcel Energy, and they mn their own electrical utility. NSP is not in their community. Jeff Seiler: Well it kind of looks like Chanhassen could learn something from Chaska maybe. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Anyone else? Corey Kohnen: My name is Corey Kohnen and I live at 405 Highland Drive, and Chaska has a wonderful pool too. We belong there and it's a wonderfixl facility. I'm outraged when I got it. I'm increased over 20%, and I'm going to go at this at a personal level, what you guys are doing to my family. I have a single income. I provide for my family. I have 3 wonderful children. I moved to Chanhassen about 5 years ago. My taxes are absolutely killing me. I'm taking a 7% decrease in my salary this year and if you guys haven't noticed, I think there's a lot of other people that are unemployed or losing their jobs. I have physically cut to the bare bone. I drive two crappy cars. I have an operating budget that I do, that I have to go by and I would expect that 11 Truth in Taxation Heating - December 2, 2002 you guys would do the same thing. I have literally cut everything to the bone. I also send my kids to private school, and that also comes out of my budget. Needless to say I'm extremely strapped. Extremely proud that I can send my kids to private school and it's a priority for me. But I'm going to be taxed right out of Chanhassen. My health benefits are going astronomically high. Paying over $500 a month for benefits for my family, and they're going to go up even higher. I do not understand how you guys can go up 20% and have my salary decrease. It's just outrageous to think that I have to pay higher taxes, which I don't mind paying, but I'm not even using the services for the school. And again you're going to come across and say that's my choice. It is my choice and I accept that responsibility because I care about my child. But I am outraged to think that you're going to increase 20% and you are going to tax me out of Chanhassen. And I'm not going to change my situation. I believe in my family. My family is the most important thing to me, but at this tax rate I will be out of here and I want you to know that. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Anyone else? Brian Lundquist: My name is Brian Lundquist. I live at 7281 Conestoga Court. Bruce, I had a question. In your presentation you talked about expenditures going up about $850,000. What was the amount that you had? Bruce DeJong: $983,000. Brian Lundquist: I'm looking at the sheet that Justin handed out to us and if we see our revenue, general fund revenue increased about $750,000 from last year. If you look at the spending from 2002, if we were to keep that spending flat from 2002 to 2003, that's about a $700,000 difference. Makes up the majority of, that only leaves us about $150,000, $200,000 difference in that so that's just a tag onto the comments that were made before about spending increases in light of the economy that we have. I want to make sure that everybody realizes that if that spending were to stay flat with the revenue increases that we had, that would have substantially lowered the amount of burden that all the taxpayers have. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Bruce, do you care to add to that as far as where part of the revenue has diminished, that it's then being shifted to the general property tax? Is that not part of it? Bruce DeJong: Mayor Jansen, that's correct. What we did last year was we had some excess increment coming from a payment out of the Hennepin County TIF district and we used that as a one time revenue source to fill the budget. What happens, and I've talked about this since I started this job 3 years ago is that if you use a one time revenue source to fund continuing operations, what you're doing is you're decreasing the amount below what you need and the following year you have to raise up substantially in order to adjust for that one time revenue source. That's why I've tried to stress that we should use continuing revenue sources for continuing operations. Use one time revenues for one time expenditures. But when you do that, we had to fill up a $365,000 gap essentially from last year to start out with, just to stay even. And then the other significant increase in this budget is the $280,000 for the road reconstruction program. If we leave that in, that's a significant portion of the increase. So I think that an important thing to mention to the people who've been up speaking and to the rest of those who are either here tonight or watching this broadcast, is that our general fund expenditures are primarily salary based. Roughly 2/3 of the general fund expenditures, if you include our police contract since we don't have in-house policing. That we contract with Carver County. That's 66% of our budget. The difficulty lies in which one of those programs do you cut because you can't make any significant decreases without cutting people and the services that they provide. 12 Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 Now as we've gone through the key financial strategies and looked at what a si~vnificant program decrease does, you've seen that. You know if you start decreasing a position, you're going to significantly cut into the services that the residents sees. And unfommately they're fairly visible. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you for speaking to that because I guess a large part of what we've seen is a decrease in the revenue source, whether it was that one time tax increment that we used last year or the d___ocrease in the state aid that we receive. As those sourc~ have gone away, that has added to what the tax burden is on our individual property tax owners. The state unfortunately, or fortunately or unfortunately, was a shift. Though they weren't being taxed for that by the state, it shifted and yes we did end up having to apply part of that tax relief to the city expenses. And the other significant portion of it has been the debt service levy increase that we've experienced so the expenditures on the city's portion, even for this year, you're reflecting on this sheet, an 8.7% increase in expenditures. The levy's gone up for other reasons besides that. It's not that our city services have been increasing. If anything we've had more comments that there are probably additional services like the one gentleman who mentioned using the Chaska pool. You know there's services within the city that the residents would like to see but unfortunately we can't add those as we're trying to pay down these debt service levies for some of the past projects that have been done. Bruce DeJong: That's exactly correct Mayor Jansen, and we've talked about this at length in the last several of these Truth in Taxation meetings. Part of our difficulty lies in the fact that we did back load ourselves with debt. When I started 3 years ago our debt levy was over a million dollars lower than it is today. So we increased those. We did increase those significantly over the past few years and that was done intentionally .at the time that those bonds were issued because the assumption was that growth in the community would pay for that. But as new properties were built, as new businesses were built, that they would contribute property tax that would cover those debt outlays. Well, with the changes in the tax rates and the way that the state has done the property tax reform, that hasn't been the case and so it's fallen directly onto the taxpayer's ihoulders for those you know, I guess past mistakes. We've ~y tried to correct that since Todd and I have started trying to manage this, we've put this so that each one of our debt levies is set at an amount that is basically the same over the life of the debt issue so we don't face big increases on down the line. That's consistent with our philosophy of .having today's taxpayers pay for today's services. When you put in infrastructure that's going to have a useful life, you ought to assess that over the useful life and have the taxpayers each year pay for their portion of it. That's a similar concept to depreciation in a business setting. So we've a_tt_empted to remedy a lot of these things... Looking back at it from a viewpoint of 5 or 6 years ago, I don't think anyone imagined that we would be in this situation. I know that the city management at that point did not and had their projections held, we wouldn't be facing the,se kind of increases but this is the situation that we find ourselves in and we have to deal with it in the best manner that we know how. And I certainly don't feel comfortable standing up here and saying you know boy, we ought to increase 20% every year. I've looked for ways to decrease the tax levy, but without cutting significant programs, there really isn't any way to do it. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. If you'd maybe speculate a little, and we've done some of this in work session so forgive me for having you repeat it but I do think it's significant. As we're sitting here and we're looking at this potential deficit that's going to occur in either what, 2004. Isn't that when it becomes more of a reality as to what the number is. What are some of the alternatives then that the city will be faced with as far as trying to take care of whatever that shortfall number is? What are some of the alternatives that they'll have to use to try to address that number? 13 Truth in Taxation Heating - December 2, 2002 Bruce DeJong: Well I think we've certainly talked about using all of the available cash from our existing funds. Now we do have a lot of fund balances but some of that is not really available. A lot of it is tied up in our debt service funds for other purposes, and what happens is we have bond covenants that say that we won't use any of that money until those bonds are paid off. That's really pledged to future debt service payments. So anything else we've, you've certainly discussed taking money from our special revenue funds. We've discussed taking money from our utility funds. But everything has a consequence and we have a lot of utility expenditures that are going to be coming up fairly soon. As we open up areas to the south we're going to have to put in infrastructure to service that area. That's going to be water and sewer lines. New wells. New water tower. New lift stations. So if you use a lot of that, you can certainly solve the current problem. It comes back and will affect the water rates... Mayor Jansen: And when we did speak, when you brought that up in the last meeting and I know Teresa's sitting behind you, we had the conversation about the utility funds and where that comes from as far as those being fees that were paid by development specifically for the infrastructure. That's growth paying for itself basically. By having those fees in place to take care of the infrastructure needs caused by the growth, correct? If I'm repeating that accurately from what we were told. Okay. And then the other circumstance I think you brought up is an option, it will have to be bonded for, correct? And that ends up again being, or levied for again back to the taxpayers. Bruce DeJong: That's correct. We've talked about that. To the extent possible we'd like to avoid bonding. We've certainly had the discussion about when we levy for equipment certificates, we had a $550,000 issue and over the life of that issue it's going to cost us something in the range of approximately $75,000 through issuance costs and for interest payments over the life of that so we want to try and minimize the amount of bonding that we have to do. But you know, bonding for some future projects will certainly free up some cash that's available to deal with our current deficit. Mayor Jansen: You'd also mentioned the reaction of the rating agencies were we to bond for debt and the impact. We've of course been improving our rating over the past several years, but there would be a negative impact, and again costing the residents higher interest rates then were we to impact our service rate, correct? Bruce DeJong: Yes. When we received our rating upgrade, the discussion from Standard and Poors was to the effect of Chanhassen has a high overall debt level, but it's offset by a rapid repayment schedule and by significant cash reserves. As we use up those cash reserves we eat into our cushion so we need to try and keep our debt level down in order to maintain the rating that we have. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And we did look at options this year similar to what we had done last year as far as trying to retire some of the debt to see if there would be some savings involved, and in doing that you came back to us and said that we'd really maximized that capability to save on the interest by retiring debt sooner. Bruce DeJong: Well we're really in the situation where any balances that we use to try and pay off any of our TIF debts really don't affect the overall deficit situation. And none of those candidates are really likely to be refinanced at this point. We don't have any that are of you know, higher rates of interest that are currently callable so we don't have any good situations to apply that money that actually affect the current interest rate savings. 14 Truth in Taxation Hearing - Dece~ 2, 2002 Mayor ~Iansen: Okay. Alright. I think we've belabored that enough. Is there anyone else who would like to comment this evening? Seeing no one, that worked the last time to have somebody stand up. Okay. Seeing no one I'm going to close the public hearing and bring this back to council at this time. And I want to thank all of you for coming this evening and sharing your thoughts with us. It has been a long several months of discussing the budget since it was presented to us in August. We have proposed several different scenarios to staff that worked vex), hard with us to try to come up with some better alternatives and we would like to be able to come up with some strategies where we can help in the short term and not harm the financial situation of the city in the long term. And that's where we're inbetween that rock and a hard place. If we wanted to be short sighted and look at this year, there are some thin,.,gs that we could probably do. Fortunately we're advised by staff people who, like most of our residents, are here for the long term and they're looking to the financial security of the city for the long term, and not just the short term. So we've tried to take some very hard looks at where the money's being spent. How it's being spent. Come up with efficiencies. As we were trying to share, and I know sometimes it isn't shared clearly, we have had a fight cap on spending. There are programs within the city like the street improvement program that have not been addressed to date. In the long term it's less expensive to our residents if we start addressing some of these things before they end up being more expensive and again it gets somewhat complicated and we've gone through a couple of sessions and I know there's been a few newspaper reports on the fact that if we don't address some of the maintenance issues now, it turns into 3 times as expensive a project, so we're trying to do a delicate balancing act and like all of you, we all have received our property tax statements and you know we're looking long and hard at the impact that it has on all of us. We do have a situation, long term, in the financial best interest of the city, that we all have looming in front of us that someone's going to have to deal with. We're not trying to take the whole burden on how, but we're trying to look at how to best answer that deficit problem. I mean it's there. It will have to be addressed. It's not pretty. We've got, we have numerous financial advisors that are looldng at the situation. We're fortunate to have Mr. Gerhardt with us who's been a part of the what, last 15 years of the history of how these things have worked and where we've been and where we're trying to go. And it's been very helpful. We've, hopefully we haven't so mu6h tried to say that anyone's been at fault for the situation that we're in. There have been legislative changes that no one could forecast you know 5 or 10 years ago that have impacted the city's financial situation currently. We are trying to deal with it and we're trying to do what we can to work with staff to at least have as, what, a lesser significant impact on all of you as we can. We're trying to soften the blow. We went into this with some numbers that we had thrown out to staff as a challenge to see about doing some spending cuts. We're not done with those challenges yes. They've come back to us with some proposals and I guess what council is faced with now is really having to make some policy decisions. That's the only way that we can go about cutting the budget. It's been trimmed for efficiency currently. Now we have to look at policy decisions on services that are provided to the community and that's the only real significant impact that we can have as far as trying to reduce budgets by $300,000. And that's the nnmher that the next council will he challenged with come June if the legislature cuts the additional state funding that's coming to this community. So if we make a $300,000 cut now, and impact the levy to reduce it, you're going to have a council that conceivably is going to have to cut that same amount then due to the revenues that are going to be decreased some June. So again, we're trying to do a bahmcing act between what can we do now, knowing that there's something that's going to have to be done and we're not even saying if it happens in June. We're just projecting that it will. We lost a million dollars from the state last year. It just seems to he a given that we'll lose the rest of that state funding as we go into the next session. So again we're not approving a budget this evening. We're not approving a levy this evening. That will be done a week from this evening, correct? At our next council meeting. So we'll be giving staff some additional direction this evening and they'll be numerous conversations I'm sure between now and then again at the next meeting as to how we, 15 Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 will go about making any additional changes that we can to the budget. But I did want to thank you for coming. We do appreciate the input and we're certainly sensitive to the impact that it has on our taxpayers and ourselves. So with that I'm going to bring this back to council as far as any additional direction or comment for staff between now and next Monday evening as to, and again the challenge to us is in a policy format, any additional changes or adjustments that we can approve making next Monday night. Councilman Peterson, if you'd like to start. Councilman Peterson: Yeah, I think that everybody that did speak tonight addressed issues that we've as a group talked about, and I think we haven't necessarily agreed as a council as to fund balances and the like over the last few years and I think that will certainly be an issue a week from tonight and how we use those fund balances and legitimate questions about spending. I think that's one that between now and then I think we all need to soul search as to should we be increasing any new positions, etc, em, and I for one certainly have not made up my mind as to what the appropriate increase, if any will be for the 2003 budget. And I think it's important for everybody to realize that is here that we have not made up our minds. At least I haven't. I'm assuming my fellow council people haven't either and there's going to be some tough choices and tough decisions so it will be a spirited debate. If you like that, come here a week from tonight and you'll probably hear one so. Mayor Jansen: Well that's where this evening I think if we've got some direction that we would like to throw out as far as the policy challenges that we've been debating over the last many months, as to where we're each comfortable looking to make, if we're going to make some cuts, so at least there's some direction prior to our going into next Monday night, where specifically we're looking. Staff had given us /heir proposals based on the challenge of cutting 10%. They've given us back some suggestions. We haven't really given them indications of those suggestions anything that we would be comfortable addressing further, and I think it would be productive so that we can reach a final decision at the next meeting if we at least touch on. Councilman Peterson: Enough said. To that end I think that where I'm probably coming from is, we talked about staff making cuts mid-year to that 3.4% range being ready for whatever the state does end up doing to us. I'm leaning towards taking those cuts right away, which ended up being about $300,000. I potentially would be asking staff to take a look at the lighting program that we've had in addition to that cutting out some of those right away. Taking out another $150,000 potentially of that. I'd like to see what that means. What taking out an additional 150 of, what we're speaking about is our street lights are on during the Whole night everywhere and one of the staff presentations was that we could reduce that light, you know turn it off from, let's just as an example, between 2:00 and 5:00 a.m. or something and save us potentially 6 figures. I'd like to consider that. Bob will talk about park and rec. And I'I1 let him leave that thunder. I think there's some potential there. And right now I would say no new pos!tions for 2003 across the board. So that's where I'm probably coming from right now. Mayor Jansen: And just for clarification sake, you mentioned the potential of needing to cut that $300,000 in next year's budget so your cuts would be targeted towards making up that $300,000 in cuts after we' ye set the levy. Councilman Peterson: Then I'm saying, my perspective is I'll deal with, if we do get cut what the state has, we're all assuming that we will, I'd be willing to deal with that at the time potentially using the surpluses that we have. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So you're looking at diminishing it by, the budget by $300,000 now and then having to look at an additional $300,000 then next year. 16 Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 Councilman Peterson: You know potential additional cuts and/or surplus usage. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you. I appreciate your going into the detail. Bob. Councilman Ayotte: Thank you Mayor. First off I'm not going to take the public's time at this point but the gentleman in the comer was incorrect in some of his comments. I hope he takes a challenge and contacts me directly and I'd love to have a chat with you sir because you brought up some excellent points. But I'm not going to take up the mayor's time and the rest of the council to talk specifically to it, but I'd love an oppommity to corner some of you one on one and address some of the points you've made. I think we ought to cut services. To what degree I'm not going to specifically state. At this point I'm going to mull it over and Todd, I'll send an e- mail along with the other council a little later on. I'm going to say leave public safety alone. We have issues in public safety and even though there have been some discussions associated with what we can do, I think we really have to, at this point, leave it alone with respect to cutting costs there. Infrastructure. We, I say leave that alone because right now we're paying for the sins of the past. Our infrastructure's gone down the toilet, no pun intended, but we've had some tremendous problems and if we have to face again another referendum with water treatment, the possibility of operational expense. Of operational expenses goes up. Capital i ,mprovement goes up. So I'd like to see the infrastructure left alone [Jut I would like to see a reduction in service because I think the public needs a message. Just like this gentleman said before, we have to tighten our belt. So if we tighten our belt, that means reduced services. And that's something Chanhassen residents don't seem to understand. Here go referendums. I know the referendums have driven up our operational expense. When we pass a referend .urn, when it drives up operational expense, the life cycle costs assoc~Ied with keeping up parks and tee, our new library and other things come out of taxes ladies and gentlemen, so I would like to also challenge the staff to see what we need to do to generate revenue to offset the costs that we experience as a result of referendum~ I realize that we probably won't be able to deal with the revenue generation now, but I'd like to at least touch upon it and get some education as to what you're going to do to see if it would offset some of the operational expense reductions we're going, to need to see, especially with the cut in service. I have other things to say but I'd be running at the mouth so I hope I can talk to some of the residents one on one to share some thoughts 'and some insight as to what goes on at this side of the table. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Now Bob, you touched on two things that you'd like us to leave alone and then you've made a very general statement about see a reduction in service. If we can get specific, and that's what we're trying to do this evening. Councilman Ayotte: You're just trying to get me to say what Peterson wanted me to say and I'm not going to say the area. But what I'm saying, generally speaking I think we need to public safety in terms of cutting those costs, I don't think we should really be looking at that if there's a risk to public safety. I'm not saying necessarily through the public safety department. Fm saying if there's a cost we can cut, that's fine but if the staff interpmta that cost to have an adverse affect on public safety or infrastn~ture, I would suggest leaving that alone. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And I'm not trying to cause you to say anything. What I'm trying to do is establish a consensus of the council so that staff has some clear direction on where we're going, because anything that we've talked about in work session at this point we have not tried to drive for any sort of consensus around that and this evening that's where we need to get much more specific so that we know what we're looking to for any potential savings in the budget. And again if you could be as specific as Councilman Peterson was to say, before the levy and after the levy. We have the situation of the $300,000 potential. 17 Truth in Taxation Heating - December 2, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: If I could be specific in terms of an amount, I can see an immediate $120,000 cost reduction in the areas of parks and recreation. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: Okay, I see that. I think there's potential for more, but I'm not comfortable in stating where that is specifically as yet, but I do see nominally $120K parks and rec. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: Service area. Mayor Jansen: And is that being applied to the shortfall caused by the reduction in state funding after we've set the levy or? Councilman Ayotte: That 300K? Mayor Jansen: Or ahead of time. Councilman Ayotte: Ahead of time. Mayor Jansen: Okay, so as a part of the levy. Councilman Ayotte: So I'm not saying the 300K that Craig has said, but yeah. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Just so we were clear. Councilman Boyle. Councilman Boyle: Some of the, I'll be specific, how's that sound. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Councilman Boyle: Eliminate the 2003 citizen survey, which would save about $20,000. Eliminate all city council membership and subscriptions, with the exception of the Southwest Transit Coalition. Reduce Chanhassen's Connection to a semi-annual report. Street lights. I think that's something we should really study and see if we can save money without affecting the safety of our citizens. We had proposed 2 park maintenance workers. Without them we would save $120,000. We lose a lot of labor hours but let's take a real hard look at that and I'd recommend we do so. Because we've got to cut services as Bob said. We are collecting some revenue on certain special event programs, i.e. February Fest, 4th of July, em. Let's go for more revenue, maintain the programs but see if we can't generate some more revenue. Get some of the service organizations to volunteer more time. We had projected a mid-year hiring an accountant. That's $30,500. Boy and I hate to say this Bruce but I'm going to recommend no. And I know that's a tough one, you need the help. That's it. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Appreciate your getting specific and just so everyone is aware, what Councilman Boyle was reading from were the staff's proposed 10% cuts that we were presented with when that challenge was put out to staff by department. Some of the proposals that they would make as far as cuts. Councilman Labatt. Councilman Labatt: I'm going to take a little bit different approach at it. We've talked about the lighting program and I know we've mentioned here tonight and we talked about it last week and 18 Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 just so, I think a point needs to be clarified that the lighting that we pay for is not in your neighborhoods. That's paid for by our individual power bills. I just wanted, I think Craig you made a point there we pay for lighting everywhere. That's not true. The lighting we pay for is in downtown, and other areas of the city. So is it fair that all 7,000 homes pay for downtown lighting, or should the benefiting parties pay for it? And I realize that we had, Todd researched that and it would take 25% of the benefiting ~ owners to petition to have themselves assessed, which I don't think we're going to have happen. Mayor Jansen: That was for the maintenance in the downtown, correct? Did that include the lighting as well? Todd Gerhardt: Well you could include lighting as a part of that service if you wanted to, but it's more than just the downtown is what we pay for. Councilman Labatt: Right. We're talking out at the Rec Center, the lights there and. Todd Gerhardt: Almost every collector road that the city has. Coulter, Lake Drive, some of the intersections on Lake Lucy, and I believe the neighborhoods are also included with some of the street lightings in the neighborhood come back to us too, don't they Teresa? Teresa Burgess: The majority of the street lights in the neighborhoods are resident supported. We do have a couple of lights scattered throughout town that were done prior to that starting. The lights that we're talking about, we had proposed eJiminating them completely, they would be Audubon, Kerber, West 78t~. Powers, Lake Drive East, Lake Drive West, Lake Drive itseff is private, Coulter, and then also some of the intersections with Highway 5. Councilman Labatt: So. Mayor Jansen: And that was just in the wee hours of the morning. You were going to study that was the proposal. Teresa Burgess: The 215 proposal was to shut them off complexly. We are evaluating if we can go with a shorter time period. We would not save the full 215. To shut them off completely would save us $215,000. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Labatt: ...and thank you Teresa for listing all those roads. I go back to safety, you know. The lights were put there for a reason by people before us who were intuitive enough to realize that some of these areas need lighting. They're dark. I'm not going to support cutting the lighting to reduce the money over safety. Somebody mentioned sins of the past. We all suffered from the water tower problem last year. Year and a half ago when it was drained for all summer. Preventive maintenance. What happens when we as leaders of the city don't do what we're supposed to do when we do preventive maintenance? We have a debacle like we did with that water tower where it was down. We had sprinkling problems. We had people up here complaining about not being able to water their yards because of sins of the past. So the pavement management system that has been proposed is simply that. Management. We need to manage our infrastructure. Now if we're not going to do that, we're going to keep putting off paying for it now and paying for it now, it all comes back to what Brace said earlier and what I've always preached, we need to pay for our services that we're receiving now. Not the residents from 10 years from now, like we're doing, because of the sins of the past We all got the same 19 Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 tax bill you did. I got hit too. But sitting up here for the last 4 years I have a little bit more insight of our debt problem and looking at and listening to Bruce for the last 3 years and Todd for the last 4, about how we're going to manage our debt and our TIF problem And our fund balances aren't, they're there but there's not enough to manage our funds. To manage our debt we have. So we want to reduce that. Again, we're robbing Peter to pay Paul. What are we going to do in 20047 Instead of being faced with anywhere from 6.1 to 7.3 worst case scenario. So I think that I'm going to go out on a limb here that our city manager and finance director have proposed a budget that has no fat in it. They've trimmed everything we've told them to trim and now we're going to rob Peter and pay Paul. I don't think so. I hope not. We're going to cut lights and jeopardize safety. I hope not. We're not going to do preventive maintenance on our roads and our infrastructure. I hope not. And we voted for referendums. The park and rec. And at the time maybe that referendum wasn't presented to show all the recurring annual costs of these miles of trails that we have. The 32 parks. These are all things that people like in Chanhassen. Something I like. Yeah, there's cost to them. And as we continue to grow we're going to continue to put trails in. So how do we balance that? Health care went up 12% this year for where I work. 10% here at Chanhassen. There's expenses to run the city that we'll all have to share with. And well, I'll leave it at that. I don't know if I answered any of your questions or not Linda. Mayor Jansen: I guess the main question that that would leave is, if we set the levy where it is currently, we're facing that still potential $300,000 cut in revenue from the state in June. Councilman Labatt: In June, yep. Mayor Jansen: How do you foresee dealing with that? Because the only way for it not to become an issue would be to levy for it. And I'm assuming, I'm not hearing anyone saying that as an altemative. Councilman Labatt: No I think, I talked to Mr. Gerhardt this akftemoon and you know he's proposing to make those cuts mid-year. And I think that what that does is buy us 6 months of time. We have X amount of money budgeted overtime for snowplowing. If we don't have a bad winter, we have surplus in that. We can apply some of that surplus or cut that towards that. That's why that I think to make that cut now would not be wise when we can buy ourselves 6 more months of time and make those cuts in June as he' s proposing. If we need to. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Labatt: Did I answer that now? Mayor Jansen: Thank you. I guess that leaves me. I've appreciated everything that staff has done to, as you've seen our angst as we're trying to deal with these numbers and everything that we would like to have been able to do to try to reduce this levy. Whether it was buying down the debt, adjusting some of the services. You know I appreciate the fact that staff, given the challenge by department to come up with 10% cuts, that everyone was able to reach within their budgets and at least throw out some ideas. I have said from the beginning that I think the responsibility of the council is to give very specific policy direction versus having staff try to figure out where our residents are going to feel the least amount of pain, as we try to cut services. I think as a council, now that we're going through this key financial strategy study, we are being given the cost of these services that are being provided to our residents so that we can better look at what the impacts are. Instead of saying, you know cut 2 park maintenance workers, we don't know what that means when we say that. What it means to the actual maintenance in the parks, 2O Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 the plowing and maintenance of the trails, the upkeep to the downtown. What the council's been challenged to do is say what of each of these outcomes are we willing to sacrifice as far as the quality of the service to our residents because you're the ones that are going to feel it So we need to determine what service levels we can cut. One of the directions that council has given now over the course of our budget discussions has been a challenge back to our park and rec commission and to the park and rec staff to work on looking at the current park and rec services that we provide, and determine of those services, what the necessary services are. One of the things that we started kicking around were the neighborhood ice rinlcn. Some of those things that are nice to have's but they're not have to have's. And the interesting part of how that might seem insignificant to some of us that don't use the neighborhood ice rinka, we hadn't even talked outside of our work sessions. It was just something that we had kicked around as a concept. Staff happened to in the Chanhassen connection not list a few of the neighborhood rinks because it was open for conversation. They had raised it as a recommendation as far as cutting, and we were already getting e-malls from residents-that would be losing those-neighborhood parks. So there are going to be impacts, you know and we need to try to determine where we make those impacts. And again, as you're sharing with us that you've had to cut your personal expemes and do your budgeting, we have to do the same thing. But we need to be very specific and that's where you hear us talking about street lighting. You know that's something that everyone will feel if that's where we end up making that ira?act and it has to be weighed against public safety. So we're looking at services. We're trying to determine where some of those cuts can be made and I guess where I'm standing on it is wanting to give the policy direction within those services as to where I would be willing to see some of the cuts. Park and rec, though I realize that that is a significant reason why a lot of us live in Chanhassen is because of our. parks, because of the natural resources and the services, we need to give it a good, hard loolc As to what each of the services is. What the costs are and where we might be able to make some cuts because I've not seen any significant review done in that area of service by council in the 4 years that I've been here. And I think that is an area where we might be able to come up with either some efficiencies or some cut backs that won't affect the quality of our park service. Will imp, act the quality of life for some of the residents that enjoy some of the little things that aren't so little'to them if it's the ice finks. And come up with some policy direction in that area. That's one that I'm willing to look at. Realizing that the city has a very real potential of a $300,000 revenue shortfall next yea~, I'm feeling the responsibility of insuring that those cuts can be found. And'that is the direction that we're able to give now. Is to look for that $300,000. Levy for the amount that is being requested currently and it hurts, unless we can come up with any of these cuts that can be made now that also are going to help balance that $300,00 that you're looking for into next year. I'm not looking to pad the fund reserve, and that's probably the first time that I've looked a little bit more short sighted. Not that I think of it as our having padded it. We haven't. We've balanced the budget and we're just simply not diving into that cash reserve over the last couple of years because of this deficit situation. At some point a council is going to be faced with having to make up for that 66 to 7 million dollar shortfall And that's going to be in the very near future. But at this point, if we can speculate what numbers we might be able, and I'm hearing a few people here consensus wise talking park and rec. Come up with a reasonable number and I'll have to look at it between now and next Monday as to what I'd be comfortable cutting now. I'm not comfortable just whacking out the 2 maintenance workers. I would n__e~_ to see the services that we're giving direction on. Councilman Ayotte: I said 120. I didn't say 2 service workers. Okay? Mayor Jansen: Okay. I think that was Councilman Boyle. You threw out a number. Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, I just threw out a number. 21 Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay. I'll have to get my arms around the number, and what that will be, and then the, you've got that impact then of still what that $300,000 will do to the budget and maybe next council makes the decision that it comes from fund balance. And that's an mount that they could pull out of cash instead of having to cut the budget and that's a policy decision that can be made come June when that occurs. When and if that occurs if you want to say potentially occurs. So that would leave that policy decision open for the next group to actually decide. So I gues. s that's where I'm going. As far as looking for any additional cuts and it will take some time for the park and rex: commission and staff I think working together to do that analysis of the current services and come up with some creative answers. That was the other part. We have formed, I should say the park and rec commission has formed a committee that is looking for alternative revenue sources and things that out of that park and rec umbrella we can do to generate revenue instead of having those services actually costing all of the residents so they have a committee formed and hopefully there will be some creative brainstorming that comes from that, and if anyone has some ideas that they'd like to share, certainly we would look to the public for any input that we could get into that whole process. Any comments from staff at this point? Todd Gerhardt: No. None at this point. We'll be working on a packet back to council. I know there is a brainstorming session among staff and the park and mc department to look at alternative revenue sources from a staff level. I know Todd has received input from the park and rex: commission but we're going to expand into our own staff to see what other alternative revenue sources are out there. That would include potentially raising services for people attending the rec center, our programs, special events and any other alternative solutions that we can come up with. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Appreciate that. And you know I guess the other bit of information that, and I know that you know any of this is still painful looking at our tax bills. The city's been going at least in a somewhat more positive direction ranked to other cities in the metropolitan area. The Taxpayers League comes out with a study every year and we've gone from, our city portion of the taxes being ranked 20th out of 109 communities to 31st, and the last year's data that was available I think was just through 2001. So we can get some further updates as they update their web site, but so the city has been dropping in rank compared to how some of the other communities have been able to handle their revenue sources as well, so we're doing what we can. We're at least going in the right direction. I hope everyone will attend the county hearing on taxes. I'm sure everybody looked at that line item too on their tax bills. It is the county and not to pick on them, but maybe I can since I'm outgoing. They are ranked number 1 in the metropolitan area as far as counties. Those taxes are number 1 and it would sure be helpful to see some creative solutions coming from the county at this point since it is the higher portion of all of our tax bills. The school district of course is also up there ranked number 5, but I think we all tend to feel a little more like that is going to be the case in a growing school district with the population and the kids going up. But that county portion of our tax bills has been going in the wrong direction and we haven't been seeing some of the decreases that I think would obviously impact all of us to an even great extent since they do represent a higher portion, 30% of the tax bills. Not to turn the force of the public against them, but sometimes I think they too need to hear the same feedback that we do and have it hit close to home. Councilman Labatt: I just wonder if you want to, as long as we're talking schools. Their latest building plan, what they're looking for over the next 6 years. How many millions of dollars in referendum, the 3 referendums potentially could be in excess of $100 million from the schools. So I would encourage people to attend that school district meeting too. Because that's a larger portion percentage increase. 22 Truth in Taxation Hearing - December 2, 2002 Mayor Jansen: And we're not shedding Our burden. I mean we're taking our portion of it very seriously. And doing what we can. It's just trying to raise that level of awareness in the public as well because we all hear that combined number of the city being number 1 or number 4 in the metropolitan area, and it's difficult with the city dropping in rank to impact that number when we're such a small percentage of that total. But again, we appreciate everybody coming this evening. We obviously still have a lot of work to do on this to reach some consensus as to where we'll end up on Monday evening, but we do have some things at least thrown out as far as ideas that we'll continue to explore and come up with some final discussion then next Monday evening. Any other comments from council at this point? Okay. Then if I could have a motion to adjourn. Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to adjourn the Truth in Taxation hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 8:50 p~ll. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 23 CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION DECEMBER 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen called the work session meeting to order at 6:40 p.m. (~QUNqIL ME~E~ PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte, and Councilman Peterson ~TAFF PRF~ENT: Todd Gerhardt C, QUNCIL MEMBERS ELECT: Tom Furlong and Brian Lundquist Mayor Jansen asked Mayor-elect Furlong and Councilman-elect Lundquist to join the City Council to discuss a transition meeting schedule with the current council and the council for 2003. The objective of the meeting would be to get the new council me~ up to speed on what work the current city council has done on their Key Financial Strategies and providing direction to staff on what the new council is interested in accomplishing in 2003. A meeting was set up for Monday, Dece~r 16"' at 9:00 a.m.. The first meeting would be to update the new council members and then schedule a second meeting with depaxtnmnt heads to discuss the direction for the future. Mayor Jansen adjourned the work session meeting at 6:55 p.m. .'o Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING DECE1VIBER 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNq~IL MEMBERS P~NT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte, and Councilman Peterson STAFF PRF~ENT: Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Justin Miller, Kate Aanenson, Bruce DeJong, Todd Hoffrnan, Teresa Burgess, Kelley Janes, and Dale Gregory PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEM~: Linda Landsman Bruce Feik Tom Furlong Brian Lundquist Jerry & Janet Paulsen Winston Wells Melissa Gilbert Tom Kelly 7329 Frontier Trail Planning Commission 1841 Ringneck Drive 7281 Conestoga Court 7305 I.aredo Drive Chanhassen Villager C'hanhassen Villager Park and Recreation Commission PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: PRESENTATION OF MAPLE LEAF AWARDS TQ LINDA JANSEN AND GARY BOYLE. Mayor Jansen: Good evening and thank you for joining us this evening. First thing on our agenda under public announcements it the presentation of maple leaf awards. 'Who am I turning that over to? Councilman Labatt: I suppose Todd for right now. Todd Gerhardt: I think we all want to come down front here and get a photo op here. Councilman Labatt: On behalf of the City Council, C_mry Boyle, Gary D. Boyle, we'd like to present you with the City of Chanhassen Maple Leaf Award, and let me read it to you. It says presented to Gary D. Boyle, City Council members from 2001-2002 and Economic Development Authority member 1993-2002. In recognition of outstanding service and dedication to the community the Chanhassen City Council, Mayor Linda Jansen, Bob Ayotte,. Craig Peterson and myself. Thank you for your service. And a final maple leaf award to, will be presented to Linda Kazere Jansen and it reads, presented to Linda Kazere Jansen, Mayor 2001-2002, City Council member 1999-2000, Economic Development Authority 1999-2002. In recognition for outstanding service and dedication to the community from the Chanhassen City Council, Bob Ayotte, Gary Boyle, Craig Peterson and myseff, thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Todd Gerhardt: Any words of wisdom that you want to share with the public on your last day here? City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: I actually have something I'd like to read so I'll wait until we sit down. Thank you. Well with 2002 coming to a close, and with it being the end of my term as mayor, I just wanted to take this oppommity to just reflect a little bit back on the accomplishments that we've made over the last 2 years. And I would like to begin by thanking the community for this opportunity. It has been a real pleasure, a real growing experience. I have appreciated being able to serve this community. It has been my honor and so I do want to thank everyone that has given me this oppommity over these last 4 years. And I also, before I Start with our accomplishments I want to express my sincerest thanks and appreciation to our city staff. They do a tremendous job here for our residents, and I have to compliment them on their professionalism, their perseverance, their community dedication that just doesn't end, and also considering all of the stress and strain that we go through with all of the decisions and tasks that we face, I have to thank them for the occasional chuckles that have helped with some of the tension. We' ve shared some good times and come through some situations that because of their professionalism, we've come through them with our heads up and I've appreciated that from all of them This council and staff have demonstrated that a group with diverse perspectives and interests can work together respectfully, openly, impartially, and productively to serve the community. The last 2 years, as I said, they've been richly rewarding and enormously beneficial for the future of the community. I'm going to encourage all of you that have been a part of this to reflect and take pride in the many accomplishments that we've made in the last 2 years, and also in respect to our commissioners who are a big part of what we accomplish. Though we have achieved several maj or goals, our most significant legacy will be the many foundation blocks that we have put into place that are crucial to the future success of Chanhassen. We've demonstrated the vision to look into the future and provide 'for the long term needs of our constituents. We have initiated or implemented plans that will be used for many years to come by furore councils to ensure that Chanhassen is the best community that it can possibly be. The primary responsibility of the city is to provide for the infrastructure needs of our community. These aren't very highly visible, not real glamorous, and certainly not popular projects, but the fact is that they are things that provide for the future of this community and they do have to 'be very high on our priority list. So just to mention a few of the infrastructure plans that we' ye put into place, and again I think will be this council's legacy, along with city staff as a team working on these things. The pavement management plan to ensure the cost effective maintenance of the city streets. The water treatment plant study, which is a comprehensive review of our water supply and needs. The key financial strategy plan that will guide the city's finances, budget, capital improvements, and yes, the TIF deficit. A complete review and update of the city's codes and ordinances that have not been done since 1986. Again, not real glamorous but a big, key, crucial part of what guides the city. The housing maintenance and rental licensing ordinance to ensure the continued quality of life and safety standards in the community, and the design standard ordinance to guide development in the community to be consistent with our existing development and current community expectations. Our more visible and popular projects have been. the planning and construction of the new community library. Heaven knows driving by that in years to come we'll certainly feel a tremendous sense of pride in that project. The City Center Commons park, next to the new library, is scheduled for construction the spring or summer of 2003, which will truly make this a landmark gathering place for our community. The new Highway 101 north trail, which wasn't without it's controversies, a need identified over 10 years ago, will be completed next spring. Long anticipated and a long awaited for. The highway south trail to connect the entire community to Bandimere Community Park. Another key location in the community for gathering. We also initiated the first ever community survey of Chanhassen residents so we could make the community's priorities our priorities along with staff. We created over 70 new volunteer positions over the last 2 years. There were more residents than ever before involved with the City Council to help make key, crucial decisions for this community. And we initiated City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 discussions about development of a full service fimess center with private and non-profit organizations. So what didn't we do? We didn't lower your taxes. The state of the city taxes when we inherited them, needless to say you've heard us talk about the troubles, and I'm not going to belabor what those problems have been. You've heaxd us talk about those issues. We'll talk about them again when we get to talking about our budget later this evening, but instead what we focused on was balancing the budget. We had a millioll dollar reduction in revenues from the State that we worked with and addressed and did what we could to again balance the budget, and we corrected creative accounting practices. Had we lowered the city's taxes, we felt that we would be adding to the problem, acting only to be quote, popular. Unfortunately there are situations that we and staff have been monitoring now for the last 4 years that we thought were paramount to planning and making sure that in the long term interest of the community, that we were helping to minimize what will be a rather siL~nifieant i ~mpact on all of us in the year 2004, so we practiced policies that would help us prepare for a 2004 situation that hopefully we've helped to minimize as far as the pain we will all feel. So ultimately our ac~ have eased the tax burden on the residents, just not during our tefax As a community, and now I want to reflect on this as a positive and more so that we can have a positive transition. We're faced with yet another change in leadership in 2003. We in fact have a similar split of support to what we faced 2 years ago. 55% of the voters did not support the next mayor elect, and I'm not saying that as a negative. I strongly encourage all of Chanhassen's residents to set aside their differences and their disappointments, from4he elections and work with the incoming leadership to achieve goals that are in the best interest of the community. The time and effort that we have all put into serving this community suffers when our community is divided by individuals that choose to create controversy and harbor animosity towards a change of leadership. And I'm not suggesting that you give up your dreams. Share your hopes and dreams and your goals for our community with the new leadership and work constructively with them to achieve all of our goals together. Chanhassen is blessed to have an abundance of residents who care about our community and have a desire to be involved. A change in leadership is a challenge, but I encourage you to view it as an opportunity versus a problem. Don't stick your head in the sand because either you lost or your candidate lost, and don't attempt to sabotage the efforts of the newly elected officials. It's already been demonstrated over the last couple of years that that's not c~ve and it's not in the community's best interest. So it's also a poor reflection on either yourself or the candidate thai you supported. So I'm encouraging you and I would encourage the mayor elect and the council elect to look at the n_re_ds of all of our residents and work to mend, not pet~tuate divisions that might form in the community. It's my hope that the 2003 council will make unifying our community a priority, and move forward all of us together. And I'll add that before we came down, and why we were a little late from our work session, is we talked as a group, the current council with the mayor and the council elect, and we're talking about having a joint strategic planning session so the leadership of the community is trying already to communicate a smooth, unifying transition. Let's all work together in the best interest of the community. Let's all start by working to stop the political division that's currently playing itself out in the editorial page of our local paper, and can only serve to alienate residents from public service. This activity serves no public good, and if we can be a part of bringing all individuals into the public service realm in a positive manner with constructive comments, I think it's only going to help move Chanhassen forward more quickly. In closing I'd like to share one of my favorite quotes that was actually shared with us by one of our financial consultants. Cities are forever. We should leave them better than we found them.. Councilmen, to all of you, with our accompli.~hments over the last 2 years I say with great confidence and pride, that we have certainly done that and it has been my extreme pleasure to work with all of you, and to work with staff and I wish only the greatest success to the 2003 council. So thank you. I appreciate having worked with you the last 2 years. Thank you. City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 I~ONSENT AqlENDA: approve the following recommendations: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's b. Resolution ~.00~99: Approval of transferring the off-premise gambling permit and temporary permit to fill the gap; and Resolution ff2;002-100: to approve the transfer of on-sale intoxicating liquor license, including Sunday sales, from 7995 Great Plains Boulevard to 290 Lake Drive East. c. Approve City Policy Concerning Spraying for Adult Mosquitoes in City Parks. d. Approval of Modifying Declaration of Covenants for Lots 2 & 4, Block 1, Crossroads Plaza 3rd Addition. g. Resolution ~,002-101: Approve State Aid Variance Request for Century Boulevard, Project No. 97-1C. h. Approval of Bills. Approval of City Council Minutes: - City Council Work Session Minutes dated November 25, 2002. - City Council Minutes dated November 25, 2002. Receive Commission Minutes: - Planning Commission Minutes dated November 19, 2002 j. Resolution ~,002-102: Approval of Change Order No. 4, Chanhassen Library Project. k. Approval of Request for a One Day Beer License, February Festival, Chanhassen Lions Club. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Tom O'Brien: Hi, Tom O'Brien, 449 Summerfield Drive. I did send some bac~und information and hopefully all of you received that. I would just ask Mr. Gerhardt to introduce that into the record. Todd Gerhardt: Can do that. Tom O'Brien: My situation on October 12~, we had a sewer back-up in our home and Corey Wal.lace eventually with the utility department, eventually came out and took care of that. Jetted out the lines. At that time he gave us a business card and told us to submit all the bills to the City Manager because it was a city issue. Mayor Jansen, I'm happy to hear that you'd like the city infrastructure to be part of this council's legacy because this is an issue I had with the infrastructure. We apparently Mr. Gerhardt submitted those bills to St. Paul Companies. That was denied and now we're looking at bills in excess of $17,000 for our clean-up, as well as contents damage for about $6,000. And what I' ye been told is that the city was not negligent and my point would be that the city was negligent. There's been a significant amount of construction City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 that' s been completed in our neighborhood over the period of time that the city has taken over the lines and according to the only person from the city who was on the scene who did clear that out, and that was Corey Wallace, that this was a city issue and so rm asking for our bills to be paid in full, as I was led to believe from a city representative. I'm also asking that we be reimbursed for our damaged contents, and that the problem be rectified. We're at the end of a sewer line and there's nothing to say that this wouldn't happen again. I'm not asking for diminiahed value in our home as a result, but I am saying that on the assumption that the problem could be rectified. Mayor Jansen: Okay, appreciate your bringing this to our attention. As you and I had discussed earlier today, it obviously is not an issue that we will address on the spot, but we will refer this to staff and they are preparing a staff report and have looked into and done some follow-up on your situation. So we will wait until they're able to present all of the information to us prior to thia being addressed by the council, but we certainly empathize with the situation that you and your family have been in, and can appreciate your concern over getting this addressed and certainly avoiding having it happen in the future. But to date, Mr. Gerhardt I don't know if you want to add something briefly. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, we're working with our agent of record, Dailup Insurance who has been in contact with St. Paul Companies to review the denial. Mayor Jansen: Which is our insurance company. Todd Gerhardt: Yes, our general liability company .is St. Paul Companies, and reviewing the denial on the claim to see what other avenues there may be. And the reason it's not on the agenda is we have not gone through all those hoops yet. I would hope to have it settled in the next couple of weeks and have it back to the council, unfommately you don't meet until January 13~, so it may be a timing issue with you Mr. O'Brien but we can have that discussion in the weeks to come. See what we can do. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Tom O'Brien: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Is there anyone else under visitor presentations that has an issue that you'd like to bring to the council's attention? Brian Lundquist: My name is Brian Lundquist. I live at 7281 Conestoga Court. Mayor Jansen and council. I have some discussion on the library coffee shop. Would you like me to do that now or wait til that item comes up on the agenda? Mayor Jansen: If you'll wait until it comes up on the agenda, that would be appreciated. Thank you. Brian Lundquist: Okay. Mayor Jansen: Is there anyone else? Okay. Seeing no one, I'll close visitor presentations. FIRE DEPARTMENT UPDATE. Mayor Jansen: Is John Wolffhere this evening? I don't see him. City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council members. I talked with John. He did not have an~hing new to add this evening. Had one fire call and that was at his house, and it was a small fire. He handled it and things are all okay there. Councilman Labatt: Anything about the response? Todd Gerhardt: No. Response time was best ever. Mayor Jansen: Alright, thank you. PUBLIC HEARING: CONSIDER A REQUF.~T FROM BLAZIN WING~, INC., DBA BUFFALO WILD WINGS GRILL & BAR FQR AN ON-SALE INTOXICATING LIOUQR LICENSE LOCATED ON WEST 79TM ~TREET~ JUST EAST OF APPLEBEE'$. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, Council members. Blazin Wings Inc. has requested a liquor license at their new location on West 79t~ Street. Background check showed no negative comments when we did that. Staff would recommend that the council open up the public hearing for resident comment and staff is recommending approval of the liquor license. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Council, any questions for staff before the public hearing? Okay, seeing none. This is a public hearing. If there is anyone present who would like to address the council on this item, please step forward.' Seeing no one, I'll bring this back to council. Council, any discussion? I'll call for a vote. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Labatt: Second. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to approve the request from Blazin Wings, Inc., dba Buffalo Wild Wings for an On-Sale Intoxicating Liquor License. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to O. Mayor Jansen: And obviously as you've heard us approving this, we do have a new restaurant that hopefully will be opening up next spring I believe are the plans. Spring 2003? Todd Gerhardt: Yes. Buffalo Wild Wings and Chipo.lte are going to be located directly east of Applebee's on the vacant lot, about 1.8 acres. And the city owns that property and we have entered into a purchase agreement with Affinity Financial Group and we're hoping to close on that property December 20~. Mayor Jansen: Great. We are always heating how the community wants more restaurants so we've got a couple that are coming in now. City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 REQUF~T FQR A SIGN I:w.I(}HT VARIANCE AND CONOm0NAL ua P~MIT FOR A MONUMENT LED DI~qPI~Y ~I(}N~ 290 LAI~ DRIVE EA~, AMERIg~AN LEGION POST 580. Public Present: Name Address Mike Cummings Bob Meuwissen Gene Borg Tom P. 8025 Auumm Ridge Way 201 West 77~ Street 15455 110~ Street, NYA 7740 Frontier Trail Kate Aanenson: Thank you. The Legion is requesting a variance and a conditional use for a sign permit. The Legion located on Highway 5, just off of Gre~t Plains, approxirr~te location here. This property is zoned Neighborhood Business. The Legion will be opening up here in hopefully next week. This is the approximate location of the building and the monument sign again adjacent to Highway 5. The two variance requests. One for the height. Again, because this is Neighborhood Business, it does have a height restriction of 5 feet. I'm going to go. through and make a little bit more comparison along Highway 5, but this is the approximate scale of the sign itself. At the 8 foot height. And the material would have the punch out letters, back lit. And then the reader broad would be along the bottom. The reader board is a conditional use. You don't deny conditional use. You can add conditions to mitigate it. The staff did recommend approval but if there are concerns with the conditional use, the appropriate response is to make conditions to mitigate the impact if there's concerns that you may have. Again the ordinance does allow for those. The one we have is on the Chan Bank~ Typically we've asked that they do provide, which they do community service opportunities. Again, the location or the layout of the sign. There was a question brought up about Neighborhood Business. Can you back that out a little bit Nann. This is the Legion site. This is Highway 5, kind of the core of the community. The Legion site is approximately right here. That is a Neighborhood Business District. We don't have a lot Of Neighborhood Business along Highway 5, although it's encoded in the PUD's. The two PUD's that we've done recently. One, where Kwik Trip is. We actually put in that PUD. While it's guided commercial PUD, it does have the same design standards as the Neighborhood Business, because it was supposed to be lower in profile, architecturally compatible with the neighborhood, and that is also the same design standards that will be with the Pulte or the Arboretum Village at Century Boulevard. That same kind of low profile. And I did include for the council kind of a summary of what those two districts, or those, all the districts along Highway 5. When we went back and we did the sign ordinance, we allowed for taller pylon signs. For example on Target there's one pylon sign 20 feet in height that advertises for all those in that PUD, Planned Unit Development. But then each individual tenant can-get a monument sign. And in looking at the request for the variance, the Planning Commission made some sound judgment in stating the fact that really the sign is facing Highway 5. It's not i~ting the neighborhood and it was really to really to mitigate there so they didn't feel in granting the variance, based on the fact that it's facing Highway 5, it's not going to negatively detract from the neighborhood. That they felt comfortable giving the variance on the sign. And they did recommend approval of the conditional use with the conditions in the staff report- So if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer those. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any questions for staff'? City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Councilman Peterson: Kate, one of the questions that I had that I talked to the City Manager with this afternoon was, I was somewhat surprised that we would allow a LED sign, motion sign along an example Highway 5. Wherever it would be, but along a highly traffic, high speed area. It induces you to look away from the highway to a sign for more than few seconds. And I don't know whether or not we've asked public safety if that's an issue or not, but it seems, it speaks directly to people on the cell phones these days. That's the hot topic about being distracted, and now potentially we're adding something that is going to pull your eye away from the drive. And I don't know whether I'm way off base or whether or not it's something you guys have ever talked about. Kate Aanemon: Well I'm aware of other reader, not in Chanhassen but along major corridors or other ones. I'm not sure if the city attorney wants to comment on that one. Roger Knutson: Just a short comment. The comment you made I've heard reflected in many communities and I'm sure a debate that goes on, back and forth in various communities make various decisions on that. But your ordinance made the decision that it was okay. Again, it's a good point and other communities because of that issue said no to them, but you have not. Kate Aanenson: I think if your concern is a change in copy and some of that, we can work with the Legion on that. I'm sure, you know they're going to advertise their steak fry and tha~ sort of thing. I'm not sure how fast it can be changed but if that's a concern we can look at that as one of the conditions if you want to add or look at how often the copy's changing or, so it's not moving as quickly. Isn't that? If you look at Chart Bank, which has the reader one, that is a scrolling and I'm not sure how fast this one will be scrolling but it's... Gene Borg: The reader board can stop. It can be slow or quickly. It's programnmble... Kate Aanenson: ...so I think that'd be appropriate to put as a condition of the conditional use permit. Councilman Peterson: Yeah, and the Chan bank being an example, again that's in a 30 mile per hour zone, next to some stop lights, etc, etc, where this is not. So again, maybe I'm the only person that feels as though it's an issue but I just, at least of note. That's it. -Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions for staff at this time?' Councilman Boyle: Just one clarification please Kate. On the north side of Highway 5, if I read this correctly, that's zoned as general, or highway and business district? Kate Aanenson: Business Highway, that's correct. Councilman Boyle: And if a sign under that ordinance could be 10 feet high, is that correct? And it's directly across from Highway 5. Kate Aanenson: And I think that's where the Planning Commission went with that recommendation. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, Council, I just wanted to add one point. Kate, this is a conditional use permit for the LED? City Council Meeting - Decemt~ 9, 2002 Kate Aanenson: Right, and I made that clear. Todd Gerhardt: Okay. And the only way we can, we cannot deny it. All we can do is add conditions to it, correct? Kate Aanenson: That's correct. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions for statt? Okay. If the applicant has anything new that you'd like to add, you certainly can do that this evening. Otherwise we of course have the minutes from the Planning Commission that we have referred to. Is them anything that you would like to add? Gene Borg: Right now we don't have anything new. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. So I'll bring this back to council. Comts? Councilman Ayotte: We've gone ahead with the Chanhassen Bank variance. Given as to who is requesting this, I'll make a comment. America's Warriors. Two, I don't see a big deviation in what we've done in the past. I want to approve it as is. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Additional comments? Councilman Boyle: If the sign was on the south side of the building I definitely would not agree, but being on the north side and being on Highway 5, I tend to lean with the Legion for approval. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Or whoever would be requesting the sign. Councilman Boyle: Whoever would be requesting, that's true. Mayor Jansen: Though we appreciate the Legion and what they do for the Comm~ty. Councilman Labatt: Well for the sake of getting to the budget sooner, 1'11 just echo Boyle and Ayotte and let's go on with it and approve it. Mayor Jansen: And all I would maybe suggest is because of the rationale that we're using around this particular variance request, it might make sense, since you are doing an ordinance review, to add that particular condition to the ordinance making it so it isn't in fact a variance that these signs are not adjacent to neighborhoods, that they can certainly be the same as some of our other business. Kate Aanenson: I think that'd be appropriate. As we said, this is the BN. The other ones are encumbered in the PUD so they're covered so we can do that. Mayor Jansen: Sure. Okay. With that if I could have a motion please. Councilman Boyle: I make a motion to approve. Roger Knutson: The CUP and variance? Councilman Boyle: Both. Should that be two separate? City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Kate Aanenson: Actually there's two motions. If we can turn to that page. The first one is for the variance. And then. Mayor Jansen: Page 8. Kate Aanenson: If you want to grant the variance, then you want to go to the bold on page 8. Where it states, should the City Council approve the height variance, on page 8, where it's bold. Councilman Boyle: Okay, we'll start with, move that the City Council approve the request for a 3 foot variance g02-16 for the construction of an 8 foot monument sign based on the following. The sign will face Highway 5 and will not directly impact the residential neighborhood. Two. Properties within close proximity of the subject site have signs that exceed 5 feet in height. Mayor Jansen: And if I could have a second please. Councilman Labatt: Second. Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Labatt seconded that the City Council approve the request for a 3 foot variance g02-16 for the construction of an 8 foot monument sign based on the following: 1. The sign will face Highway 5 and will not directly impact the residential neighborhood. . Properties within close proximity of the subject site have signs that exceed 5 feet in height. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: And the second motion please. Councilman Boyle: Motion that the City Council recommends, or that the City Council approve the Conditional Use Permit #02-07 for the IJRD display within a monument, ground low profile' sign. Mayor Jansen: And a second. Councilman Labatt: Second. Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Labatt seconded that the City Council approve the Conditional Use Permit g02-07 for the LED display within a monument ground low profile sign. AH voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. INTOXIGATIN(3 LIQUOR LICENSE VIOLATION, AXEL'$ RFSTAURANT, 560 WE,qT 78TM STREET. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, Council members. Axel's Restaurant and Bar violated the city's compliance check by serving liquor to a minor. A representative of Axel's is here this evening to give you any information you need on how they're going to correct the situation. Staff is recommending that a $1,000 fine be assessed and would have Axel's representative come to the podium at this time. 10 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Good evening. Linda Young: Mayor Jansen and Council members. My name is Linda Young. Mayor Jansen: If you could pull the microphone over in front of you so, thank you. Linda Young: I am the owner of Axel's, and this is Tonya Swenson who is our general manager at Axel's and we are here, obviously this is one of the most embarrassing and humiliating things that we have ever had to go through as a company. We pride ourselves on training our staff on a regular basis and on a daily and nightly basis. Obviously there was an assumpti, 'on made on the part of my bartender, who is here also. She insisted on being here so she can carry the message back to our staff on the severity of what has happened there. She did serve a minor. She assumed that she had carded her before, and made the assumption and was wrong. So therefore we are standing before you tonight on behalf of the rest of our staff in hopes that the 3 day suspension will be waived. We do have, what this has done to heighten our, and all of our restaurants, it has brought us all back to really, really preaching every day and night to our staff. We have put signs on all of our restaurants, don't forget to ID. We're just 3 months ago had a sting in Eagan and we passed that and it was a congratulatory letter that we got and I wish I was standing here tonight with that same letter. We understand the severity. We know, most of my servers have minors in their homes. They're older and they worry about that all the time, and I did have a liquor awareness that we do twice a year. We just had one on June, it was June of this year, the 15a', which I have documentation of that We also have another one scheduled.this Friday by a Debra Zybrowsky who is coming in at 4:30 and talking to our entire staff again. We have in both of our bartender and server manuals, fi'om day one, anybody new that does start as a server or anybody that is serving intoxicating beverages, we do have a liquor awareness program that we have set up since we opened. We have tried very, very hard to not have this happen. Axel's is not a restaurant that is conducive to younger people. They don't tend to hang out there. It is not a late night supper club or people come in there as a family. They come in there to dine. I am more than willing and open to any suggestions that you may have if, whatever you can do to help us prevent this from happening again that we haven't done already, I'm open to suggestions. Mayor Jansen: Well thank you, and we certainly appreciate your being here this evening to speak with us about this. This is of course one of our more difficult issues is having one of our establishments having to come in and address an issue like this with us. We typically would prefer that this be more of a positive note that we have you here in the council chambers, so I appreciate your having emphasized your concern around this incident and what's occurred. I know that you're aware as our ordinance reads, the council may deviate in an individual case where the council finds that there exists reasons making it more appropriate to deviate, meaning from the 3 day suspension. Such as, but not limited to a licensee's efforts in combination with the State or City to prevent the sale of alcohol to minor's, and of course now your having addressed with us that you have had current conversations with all of your staff and your training this Friday as you mentioned, you again will be having all of your bartenders and waitresses or walters also involved in that? Ail of your serving staff. Linda Young: Yes. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Linda Young: And we do do a daily, what we call a pre-shift is done daily, both a.m. and p.m. by all of our staff, and there isn't one of my staff that does not know we are here tonight and 11 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 understands the severity. This affects their job as well. I mean they have families and obviously they're very aware of it. We have, we've never hid this from them. We did put up the letter when we got it. It has been posted with Jessica's name on it. Ironically Jessica, the bartender, has been one of the people that always has carded and it's humiliating and embarrassment for her. She has suffered immensely over this and is still not finished. She has to go in front of a court on Friday personally and it, you know the termination aspect of it as' she has gone through a lot already with her co-workers and I only believe that this is a positive because she has definitely spoken in pre-shifts about what has happened to her. And the awareness level is definitely heighten in all of our restaurants and we're happy to be here and we want to do the right thing and that's why we're here. Mayor Jansen: Well thank you and I realize it's a difficult situation for Jessica, but I have to compliment her on being willing to step forward and express what has happened to her to your staff so that they can be personally aware and I'm sure there's a camaraderie that exists within the restaurant that everyone is somewhat feeling her pain so thank you. Linda Young: Absolutely. Mayor Jansen: Council, any questions for the applicant? Councilman Ayotte: Yes, and I would ask that Roger chime in. I made some calls today to see whether or not a certificate of compliance that's used in my particular area, if you would be willing, if it would be appropriate that once an individual receives training, that they sign a certificate of compliance realizing the consequences of not adhering to carding. Would you be responsive to that approach and is that, Roger, would that be appropriate? Roger Knutson: Yes, that would be appropriate if the council desires that. Linda Young: I, whatever. You know we're here to please. This does not help us, believe me. It really hurts us a lot. It huns our whole company. When we, we just applied for a liquor license in Woodbury and we had no, one of their, one of the reasons that we got accepted is because we had had none at that time, and this is going to affect us going forward and we definitely will do whatever it takes to not have it happen again. Councilman Ayotte: But point of clarification. It's not, at least not to please this councilman. What my concern is, as I've shared with you before when we've had a discussion it's, I'm more concerned and I understand your moment of embarrassment but for the young person who has a drink or two at any establishment and goes out and hurts themselves or someone else, so that's my biggest concern. And I would like to consider the idea of a certificate of compliance by each employee once they complete the training, maintain value to ensure that they understand completely and have accepted that understanding through that certificate of compliance. Linda Young: That's totally fine. We keep, we have on f'fie from the certification practice when they go through this training, they do sign it and they do take a test on it. It is on file at our restaurant. We certainly can send them to you if you'd like. Councilman Ayotte: No, I'm talking about them signing a certificate of compliance, understanding the consequences. That just talks about the training. But if they were to understand the consequences, then I think the point would be sent home a little bit clearer. 12 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Linda Young: Okay. Mayor Jansen: And so Councilman Ayotte, just so I understand this certificate that you're referring to of compliance, is that something that exists or are we creating it as far as what the consequences are? Councilman Ayotte: It exists in the federal environment where folks have to sign that. I would suspect we could borrow it if this council elects to enforce it, and what that basically says is that the individual understands the consequences of not adhering to the rule... Mayor Jansen: So I think what I'm hearing is that this is probably in addition to our overall policy that we would have in place so that it's in fact impacting all of our establishments in town, not just Axel's because they're here this evening but you'd like to see it added as a policy. Councilman Ayotte: I would like to see it added and I think it would help everyone. It'd be an education. It'd be a positive thing rather than simply punitive thing. Linda Young: On this particular awareness that they go through does have the penalties that will have to adhere to if they were to serve a minor. Would you care to see this? Is this, I mean I just want to make sure that I'm understanding what you're looking for. Councilman Ayotte: Do they sign that? Linda Young: Yes. Councilman Ayotte: So they sign that they understand the consequences? Linda Young: Yes. Councilman Ayotte: Well then you do it. Linda Young: Yes we do. Mayor Jansen: Okay. That does have the penalties. Councilman Labatt: That doesn't have the penalty for you as an establishment? Linda Young: Yes it does. Councilman Labatt: It shows you'll be suspended for 3 days? Linda Young: Absolutely. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you for clarifying that for us. Appreciate it. Council, any other comments or questions for the applicant? Councilman Labatt: You did receive the letter from Carver County Sheriff's office announcing this during this certain time frame, correct? 13 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Linda Young: Yes. Councilman Labatt: So you knew it was coming. And did you advise your staff that. Mayor Jansen: The actual sting was occurring? Councilman Labatt: Yeah. Linda Young: No. Councilman Labatt: They send a letter out. Linda Young: No. Councilman Labatt: Sometimes they do, just to put you on notice. Mayor Jansen: Anytlfing else? Councilman Labatt: No. I mean just you know, it's one my pet peeves but. Mayor Jansen: I know. Okay, thank you. I'll bring this back to council then. Appreciate your being here this evening and for your action that you have taken to raise the awareness within your staff of what has occurred as'a result of this. So thank you. Linda Young: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: And we do appreciate you as a contributor to our community and you've been a significant, I would say crown in our jewel so. Jewel in our crown so. Linda Young: We love Chanhassen too so. Mayor Jansen: Well thank you. We'll look forward to not seeing you here again, under these circumstances. Council, I'll bring this back then for comments or a motion please. Councilman Ayotte: I like the idea, you know I'd like to get a copy of what they have. That' might be shared around the block, and the fact that they do have a certificate of compliance showing the consequences will get it now out... Mayor Jansen: Staff, if you could follow up on that for us we would appreciate it. Councilman Ayotte: Maybe we could both break that across the board. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Anything else? Otherwise I'll call for a motion. Councilman Peterson: I'd make a motion that we take staff recommendation and waive the 3 day removal of the license and just do simply pay $1,000 fine. Councilman Boyle: I would second that. 14 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Couneilm~n Peterson moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council waive the 3 day suspension of the liquor license for Axel's and impose a $1,000 fine. All voted in favor, except Councilman Labatt who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. REQUEST FOR ~ITE PLAN APPROVAL FOR A THREE STORY~ 70~73 ~Q. FT. COMMERCIAL BUILDING CONSISTING OF A 76 UNIT HOTEI~ A RESTAURANT, AND ~TI-TENANT RETAIl. ~PACF.~ ~rITH VARIANCF~ FOR ~IGNAQE AND BUIlDINg; MATERIAI~, BRI, I~E BISS0~ NORTHCO'YI~ INN AND ~II. JlTF~. Kate Aanenson: Thank you. The applicant is requesting approval for a 70,000, approximately 70,000 square foot building located in Villages on the Ponds. It's highlighted here. See approximate location. Bokoo Bikes here. It's across from Houlihan's and Americlnn on that same comer. There is 14,300 square feet of retail and that hotel lobby, meeting room area on the first floor. And 76 total rooms. And conference facilities. The access, the majority of the parking will be underground. There is on-site parking that will be shared, but the majority of the parking will be underground. This is the site plan of the building as it sits. Main Street and Lake Drive, so there is access via those two for the retail. One of the issues that the Planning Commission had was access to the site. Access to the site via another sidewalk. Again, I'm sorry the scale's different on this one too. One of the concerns that the Planning Commission had was regarding the sidewalk, The staff had not recommended an additional sidewalk in this area. There is landscaping. We wanted to increase the landscaping. Could parking be removed and move the landscaping over for an additional sidewalk? That's a poss~ility. P .arking again is ~t a premium here. There will be some peak time. s that that will be a premium. Staff's concern is that we believe the sidewalk that runs along the other side, Bokoo Bikes coming across or the internal sidewalk that we've put in place, will get you to the terminus, whether you're staying at this building, going over to Houlihan's or to Americlnn, coming back across. That the sidewalk on this location and this location is adequate. Again, taking the path of least resistance. Getting to the closest point. Their site plan does show a sidewalk, which we need clarification .... landscaping but the continuation of this sidewalk to tie in across over here. Councilman Boyle: Kate, excuse me. Can you slide that a little bit so we can, kind of center that. Kate Aanenson: That helps. Councilman Boyle: Yeah, thank you. Kate Aanenson: There we go. So the concern was, if you're on the, coming from the American Inn hotel, you could meander through, or if you're at Houlihan's and catch this sidewalk or stay on that sidewalk. The Planning Commission wanted an additional sidewalk here. That was their recommendation. Staff does not concur with that recommendation. I just want to make that understanding. So the way to solve that was to reduce parking or reduce the landscaping, and the staff didn't concur with either of those proposals, so there's the difference on those and those are reflected in your conditions of approval. The other issue was. Councilman Ayotte: Kate, can I ask a quick question on that point? Kate Aanenson: Sure. Councilman Ayotte: It makes sense you don't want to reduce parking nor do you want to affect 15 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 the vegetation so why did the Planning Commission hold to that position? What was their reason for? Kate Aanenson: Their reason was that this was to be walkable, but we felt there is enough sidewalk in convenient locations. Councilman Ayotte: So it's the definition of what was walkable... Kate Aanenson: And what's convenient, right. Councilman Ayotte: Alright, I just wanted to. Kate Aanenson: And we felt, and that's why we, when we originally met with the developer, we felt this was the adequate one. Again, you have people staying at this hotel. More than likely there's going to be a restaurant here. So there will be people going back and forth is what we want, but we believe there's adequate sidewalk and safety to get back and forth through there. So the other outstanding issues were EIFS and the sign. They're requesting a sign variance for the height, and the amount of EIFS. The staff had recommended some architectural changes. This drawing is different than what was approved in your packet. They have made some changes through awnings and added the additional windows so, we met with the applicant last week regarding that and the staff is satisfied with those changes so the approval date would have to reflect the date of these plans. Again ongoing, the sign. We end up with these nice architectural embellishments to create a sign but that is again their request. I did put in, there is sign variances that you recently granted on the bank, and I included that language. For the bank you had recommended above the 20 feet, and if they could pick either the higher point or the lower. There were two actual places for that to go, and they could pick one or the other. And again, based on the fact that the logo was pretty subdued, you felt comfortable with that. Pretty low key. And then you also agreed to put signage on the bank side on the canopy. There was two components to that. Mayor Jansen: Kate as a part of that I rex:all our mentioning tonal as far as the color because it was going to blend rather than contrast. Kate Aanenson: Right. The logo was kind of more of a brass color and it was mom subdued. Just the lettering, right. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And that was the one on the tower. Did we put a similar condition then on the bank signage? Kate Aanenson: No, that was channel lettering and I don't believe that that language was put into the condition of approval regarding the other, over the canopy. It just says signage over the bank canopy as shown on the site plan, and maybe Vemelle could speak to specific color on that, but I'm not sure we called that out. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Kate Aanenson: But it is represented on the site plan that you saw. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you for clarifying that for us. 16 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Kate Aanenson: So they did make the architecttnal changes that the staff had, so those can be modified, but then again there's the signage issue and the amount of EIFS. So again the sign exceeds the 20 feet in height, and the EIFS on this is 26%. The ordinance now says 15. Again for your edification we put in here the recently approved other projects, specifically Bokoo Bikes, which has 56%. And Bell Mortgage has 33%. And I believe the other building, Building C which we recently approved was just over 15 percent. Somewhere between 15 and 20, so this does exceed that. So with that, I'd be happy to answer any questions you have but we have put the conditions of approval in. Again, if you are satisfied with these changes, the awnings and again the windows, then we need to reflect that in the date of the, today's date in the site plan agreement. Mayor Jansen: Okay. If you wouldn't mind, since the FJFS part of the building has changed somewhat. That's where you've added the awnings. Could you have Nann maybe focus in on that part of that building. It' s a little hard to see from here. Kate Aanenson: Maybe we can go back, let's see. This is the original one. Councilman Boyle: Which one's in our packet Kate? Is that the original one right there? Kate Aanenson: This is the original one here...materials that we'll be using. The coloring that came out in the packet, I think didn't represent the mm colors and so instea~ of trying to copying it, we actually just asked them to get one photo composite and then bring the material board in. You can see he's added an awning, and then we wanted more detail on the windows. And those are reflected here again, if you look at these, just the plain glass windows. We ~dd_,~l much mom detail. And we believe that that met the intent that we had to make any changes. Grading up the architecture. Mayor Jansen:- Okay. That was probably one of my concerns, as far as granting the variance on the EIFS. It just seemed as though this part of the building was flat. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, that was our concern too. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So now you're satisfied with those additions? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Correct. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Kate Aanenson: And it just still requires a variance for the EIFS so, but as far as the changes... Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any questions for staff at this time? Councilman Peterson: Just to clarify the FJFS is not, it's high enough where nobody's going to be bumping into it, knocking it. Kate Aanenson: That's correct Yes. And this goes back to another issue that I think we're going to look at if the council, whichever way the council's willing to kind of go back and examine the rule based on what we've been approving, depending on which direction you go tonight. They said 15%, the right percentage and. 17 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Right, but to your point in the staff report, this is a PUD and so the original development that happened within the PUD meets those requirements and this is an additional ordinance that was drafted after the initial development occuned. Kate Aanenson: That's correct. Mayor Jansen: So it would be holding it to a higher standard than the rest of the PUD, whereas the ordinance that changed it was to the entire city. Kate Aanenson: That's correct. Mayor Jansen: Okay. It wasn't specifically targeted to just impact this PUD. Kate Aanenson: no, city wide, right. So they got caught in that change. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions for staff at this time? If the applicant has anything new that you'd like to add to the discussion, you're certainly welcome to step forward to the podium. We of course have the notes, minutes from the Planning Commission meeting but if there's anything new, you're welcome to step forward. Mark Clarey: Good evening. I'm Mark Clarey. I'm with Northcott Company and just briefly, we've been involved in the project out here since the first inception with Americlnn and Houlihan's. Our goal is to continue to mm over good projects here in the community. We like our involvement in it. We have tried to work with staff on all the issues that they've come up with, and at the point of working relationship with everyone, come out with a project that's viable for all people of the community and for us. I think we've gotten to that point and look forward to working with you some more. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Appreciate that. Vernelle, you can't attend my last council meeting and not get up and say something. Not to put you on the spot. Vernelle Clayton: You won't b~lieve this but I actually thought I'm going to have to figure out some way of talking. Not to bore the rest of you, but they give me a bad time about talking too much. Mayor Jansen: At least you have your voice this evening, which you didn't at the Planning Commission. Vernelle Clayton: Let me validate my presence by just adding one other little thing about the EIFS and that is, the bank building is the one that had to get the variance because of the...because it's classified residential, so that's kind of quirky thing that happened for two buildings just across the street from each other. With that I just would like to say that I have truly enjoyed working with these folks. I' ye appreciated your patience with all of my verbiage and congratulations on a job well done. Mayor Jansen: Well thank you. Okay, I will bring this back to council. Comments. Councilman Peterson: The only comments I have is about the sign. I'm worried that it's going to stand out more than we want it to and other than that I think it's a great project. Nice 18 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 architectural design. Good feel. Fits into the concept and it's just the signage so I look towards other comments. Mayor Jansen: If we might have a conversation on the silage, and we of course have two issues. One, the sign in the tower and then the other that's actually on the building that's more at the 22 to 28 foot. Kate, did you get a height for me on the tower sign by chance? I had emailed Kate earlier. Kate Aanenson: Yes. The Americlnn was 47. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And this one will be at, I looked. I couldn't find what it's actually al; Mark Clarey: I believe 52 foot. Mayor Jansen: 52, okay. Mark Clarey: The story height in this three story building is taller than a 15 foot retail...makes up for quite a difference .... 7 feet higher than the traditional motel...retail usage and you need all that room on the first floor which again... Mayor Jansen: Okay. I had brought the bank building tower I believe was at 40 feet, so this one's at 52. The bank tower sign was limited to the logo, and I know our comments had to do with it being an additional architectural detail, and that was really what the two locations where shown to represent and as we were talking to the applicant, of course it was noted that the lettering of the sign in the tower would probably end up being so small that it wouldn't necessarily be visible, which is where we went to a logo. Now in the Planning Commission minutes it was not determined yet as to what the name would be that would appear in that tower. And I'm, at this point 'feeling more compelled to put the same sort of condition on this tower as we had on the previous one, and that it be more of a logo or some type of an architectmal detail versus trying to put a, you know verbiage at that size. That was also specifically what we had noted needed to be tonal so that it would not be standing out and contrasting to the building at that height, and this one being at 52 feet. So I'm looking at the tower sign as being one that I would like to maybe be more specific about if we're going to allow that to stand as a sign per se, compared to the other two locations which are at the 22 to 28 foot height at the ends of the two buildings. Councilman Ayotte: What would be the constraint that specifically, how would you ford that to? Mayor Jansen: I'd like to hear council discuss the same condition that we had had on the previous tower, and that it be of a logo or architecnnal type of a detail that might depict the businesses that are in the building, if that's possible. And that it be tonal versus having it be a contrasting color that would stand out in the tower. Councilman Boyle: And leave the height as is? Mayor Jansen: Yes. But just to throw those out as council is continuing to comment. Councilman Peterson: I didn't vote for the last one, as you recall so I'm reticent to, I won't vote for the height or the presence of this one either just because I believe that the ordinance in the 19 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 PUD in this case should be adhered to so, but I think which particulated, if the rest of you feel that way, at a minimum that's what you should do. Councilman Ayotte: The one thing that I would like to bring up, and IAnda I agree with you that that would be an approach, but what seems to be consistently coming up all the time is signage, so I have an issue with, not an issue but I have a request that we figure out how we can come up to some mecha~sm where we don't keep on re-visiting signage all the time. But in terms of this event, yeah. I think what you're suggesting would work. Leave the height as it is and go, I hate to say the term tonal because it sounds so touchy feely. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Well, and the previous sign issue of course was also within this same PUD so that has a great deal to do with it. Councilman Ayotte: I'm not saying all the time. We always seem to be re-visiting discussions with signage more than I think. Councilman Peterson: It's the sign of the times Bob. Mayor Jansen: Okay, moving on to more comments please. Councilman Labatt: I think that we would just, why wouldn't we apply the same conditions to this building as we did to the Community Bank building of Chart? Mayor Jansen: So you're comfortable with that9. Councilman Labatt: Yeah. Let's just, I mean let's make sure that we're treating everybody fairly.. If we're going to give Community Bank of Chanhassen conditions 4 weeks ago and we get another applicant today, let's just apply the same conditions so we're all on the same playing field. Mayor Jansen: Great. That was why I asked Kate to get more specific so we'd know how we had worded that one. Councilman Labatt: Yeah. Mayor Jansen: And so as far as the signs on the end of the two buildings, you're okay with that height, the 22 to 28. Councilman Labatt: It's a different elevation. It's got retail. What's a couple feet? Mayor Jansen: One will be for the restaurant and one will be for the hotel. Okay, any other comments? Councilman Labatt: No. Mayor Jansen: Okay. I'm not hearing any discussion on EIFS so I'm assuming we don't need discussion. Okay. Then if I could call for a motion please. 2O City Council Meeting - Deceraber 9, 2002 Councilman Labatt: I would move that we approve Site Plan ~/)02-9, plans prepared by Truman Howell Amhiteets and Associates dated October 18, 2002, subject to the following conditions, 1 through 44, but let's talk about 43 quick. The sidewalk. Do we want to omit that? Mayor Jansen: I'm okay with omitting that for the reason of having more of the green space. Councilman Labatt: I have it deleted from mine so, so my motion would be for subject to the following conditions I through 42, omitting 43, and including 44. Kate Aanenson: Okay, can we have a clarification then on B, because I'm assuming that you're going to. Councilman Labatt: I was going to make that a separate one. Kate Aanenson: Oh, okay. Councilman Labatt: Unless I can do it all on one shot, and I'll be glad to. And we approve a variance to use more than 15 percent EIFS, item or letter B. Mayor Jansen: Why don't, if you wouldn't mind, shall we make them separate motions? Councilman Labatt: Okay. Mayor Jansen: I think we're going to get a 5 on at least the first one. Councilman Labatt: Okay, we'll give Craig his shot here. So that's my motion, I through 42, omitting 43, and 44. Mayor Jansen: Could I have a second please. Councilman Boyle: Second. Mayor Jansen: Any discussion of the motion? Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council approve Site Plan ~.00~9, plans prepared by Trmnan Howell Architects and Associates, Inc. dated October 18, 2002 for a 70,873 square foot, three story building consisting of street level commercial and upper level hotel rooms, subject to the following conditions: I. The applicant shall enter into a site plan agreement with the City and provide the necessary security to guarantee erosion conuol, site restoration and landscaping. 2. Site plan approval is contingent on final platting of Ouflot A, Villages on the Ponds 2"~ Addition to a block and lot designation. 3. Lighting shall comply with the Villages on the Ponds design standards and city code. 4. Signage shall comply with the Villages on the Ponds Design Standards and city code. 5. The exterior building lighting shall be revised to shine downward only. 21 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 e o . . 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. The overhead doors at both the garage entrance and trash storage shall be painted a similar color to the surrounding material. Each of the windows located below the shake dormers on the second and third floors shall be replaced with six-panel windows on both the Lake Drive and Main Street building elevations for the second and third level. Additional differentiation shall be provided around the windows in the fiat roofed sections of the building on all three sides on both ends of the building. This could be done through the use of window accents, such as plant boxes, shutters, balconies, decks, grates, canopies, awnings, recesses, embrasures, arches, lunettes, and different types of windows such as bay, multi-paned, angular, square, rectangular, half-round, round, Italianate. The developer shall be required to install the streetscape in compliance with the streetscape plan approved for Villages on the Ponds. The applicant shall revise all plan sheets to incorporate the landscape islands within the parking lot a minimum of 10 feet wide and evergreens shall be outside the sight triangle in the northwest comer of the parking lot. The building must be protected with automatic fire sprinkler systems. The building plans must be prepared and signed by design professionals licensed in the State of Minnesota. The building must be constructed in accordance with the Minnesota State Building Code. (Note: The International Building Code will probably be adopted by the State at the time the building is constructed.) An accessible route must be provided to the building, parking facilities, public transportation stops and all common use facilities. Seven accessible parking spaces must be provided on the site. Accessible guestrooms must be provided in accordance with Minnesota State Building Code Chapter 1341. The building owner and/or their representatives should meet with the Inspections Division to discuss plan review and permit procedures. In particular, type of construction and allowable area issues need to be reviewed and discussed. A 10 foot clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants, i.e. street lamps, trees, shrubs, bushes, Qwest, Xcel Energy, Cable TV, and transformer boxes. This is to ensure that fire hydrants can be quickly located and safely operated by firefighters. Pursuant to Chanhassen City Ordinance g9-1. All radius tums shall be designed to accommodate the turning of Chanhassen Fire Department's largest apparatus. Submit radius tums and dimensions to the Chanhassen 22 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 City Engineer and Chanhassen Fire Marshall for review and approval. Pursuant to 1997 Uniform Fire Code Section 902.2.2.3. 20. Additional file hydrants will be required. Contact Chanhassen Fire Marshal for exact location. 21. A PIV (Post Indicator Valve) will be required on thc fire water lino coming into thc building. Contact the Fire Marshal for exact location. 22. "No Parking Fire Lane" signs will be required as well as curbing to be painted yellow. Contact Chanhassen Fire Marshal for exact location of si~s and curbing to be painted yellow. Pursuant to 1997 Uniform Fire ~ Section 904.1. 23. The builder must comply with water service installation policy for commercial and industrial buildings. Pursuant to Inspection Division Water Service Installation Policy #34-1993. 24. The builder must comply with the Chanhassen Fire Depaxtn~nt/Fire Prevention Division regarding maximum allowable size of a domestic water line on a combination water sprinkler supply line. Pursuant to Chanhassen Fire Department/IVac Prevention Division Policy #36-1994. 25. The builder must comply with the Chanhassen Fire Depaxtment/Fire Prevention Division regarding premise identification. Pursuant to Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention Division Policy g29-1992. 26. With referencing proposed restaurant, the builder must comply with the Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention Division policy referencing cooking equipment exlmt~ hood requirements. Pursuant to Chanhassen Fire Department/l*lre Prevention Division Policy #35-1994. 27. A private easement will be required for the storm sewer which runs off site to the west. 28. A cross-access agreement between parcels must be recorded. 29. Submit storm sewer design calculations for a 10 year, 24 hour storm event with drainage flow map. 30. Add the current version of the City of Chanhassen Detail Plate Nos. 3101, 3102, 3104, 3107, 3108, 5203, 5300, 5301, and 5302. 31. The applicant is responsible to obtain and comply with all regulatory agency permits, including but not limited to Watershed District, MPCA, etc. 32. Retaining walls over 4 feet in height must be designed by a registered engineer and requires an approved fence at the top of the wall. 33. All plan sheets must be signed by a registered engineer. 23 City Council Meeting -December 9, 2002 34. Add a minimum 75 foot long rock construction entrance and revise the note from 50 feet to 75 feet. 35. Add a storm sewer schedule to the plans. 36. Type II silt fence shall be used around the grading area. Also, existing catch basins around the site perimeter must be protected from construction-related sediment through the use of filter barriers, (see City Detail Pate No. 5302). 37. Revised the legends to match the plan drawings. 38. On the site plan, revise the dimension of the north access entrance width to 26 feet. 39. 40. Any off-site grading will require easements from the appropriate property owners. On the grading plan: 41. Show all existing and proposed easements. · Add a benchmark. · Differentiate between existing and proposed storm sewer lines. · Show Type II silt fence around the perimeter of the grading area and Type 1II adjacent to the pond. · Show the construction rock entrance minimum'of 75 feet. · Show the building basement elevation and how it will drain. · CBMH #101 must be with sump. · Show the existing and proposed storm sewer flow direction. · Show the proposed storm sewer class. · Show all existing pipe information including pipe type, slope, class and size. · Designate which parking stalls are meant to be handicap accessible. On the utility plan: · Differentiate between existing and proposed utility lines. · Add note "Any connection to existing structures must be core drilled". · Show all existing and proposed utilities sewer type, class, size, length, flow direction, slope. · The existing water and sanitary stubs off of Lake Drive are shown incorrectly. Verify locations with as-builts. · Show the location of existing ate valves on the water service lines. 42. The applicant shall include a design pavement section. 43. To be consistent with Building C, the applicant shall incorporate enhanced pavers with the sidewalk on Main Street and Lake Drive. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: If I could have a second motion please. 24 City Council Meeting - Dece~ 9, 2002 Councilman Labatt: Okay. I move that we approve the variance to use more than 15 percent EIFS on the building based upon the findings in the staff report for the same project Mayor Jansen: Actually we're going to be creating our own finding, Kate Aanenson: That'd be correct. So my understanding that your findings were, it's consistent with the other buildings that we approved in the are~ And the rules chan~ ~er, I think you phrased it better. After this project was approved. So for example Bokoo Bikes and the Building ~4 were approved... Mayor Jansen: So we're basically grandfathering this one in, correct? Kate Aanenson: Or applying the same standards that. Mayor Jansen: Applying the same standards. Councilman Labatt: Okay. So be it. Mayor Jansen: Yeah, what she said. Okay, if I could have a second please. Councilman Ayotte: I'll second that. Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council approve the variance for the use of more than 15 percent EIFS on the building based upon the finding that it's consistent with other buildings approved in the area. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: And the third motion please. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Move that we approve the variance for the signage in excess of 20 feet in height on the buildings based upon the findings we came up with tonight that it is consistent with the Community Bank of Chanhassen under the. same conditions. Mayor Jansen: So we're adding the same conditions that we had in the Chanhassen Bank approval. Is that acceptable? Kate Aanenson: Yeah, let mc make sure. My understanding is that it's tonal and that it be more logo type sign. Mayor Jansen: In the tower. Kate Aanenson: In the tower, correct. Councilman Labatt: That's it. Mayor Jansen: Okay. A second please. Councilman Ayotte: Second. City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council approve the variance for signage in excess of 20 feet in height on the building based on the fact that it's consistent with the approval given to the Community Bank of Chanhassen building. All voted in favor, except Councilman Peterson who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. Mayor Jansen: It is really exciting to see this project moving forward and we certainly appreciate all the good efforts and addressing the issues that staff has had. So thank you. CONSIDER REQUF_~T FOR PROPOSALS FOR BANKING SERVICES. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, Council members. If we could have this item tabled. We were trying to contact representatives from M&I Bank today and they were not available so we'd ask that this item be tabled to our next council meeting. Councilman Boyle: I make a motion we table it. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Ayotte: Second. Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to table the request for proposals for banking services to the next City Council meeting. Ail voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. DISCUSSION OF COFFEE SHOP IN NEW LIBRARY. Public Present: Name Address Lois Fiskness Jill Shipley Laura Holmes Thomas Bader Cindy Schallock Beth Larson Cathy Burd 8033 Cheyenne Avenue 261 Eastwood Court 8596 Drake Court 8571 Drake Court 7501 Canyon Oave 7590 Canyon Onwe 515 Laredo Lane Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, Council members. This past May staff was directed to put out a request for proposal to. Mayor Jansen: Pull your microphone a little closer. Todd Gerhardt: To put out a request for proposal for a coffee shop to be placed in the new library. As a part of that request we did not receive any applications from private individuals, however we did receive a proposal from the Friends of the Library. My report outlines their proposal and has asked that they pay a pro-rated amount based on sales and a base rent, at a minimum of $540 per month and staff is recommending that we not accept that proposal Staff is making the condition that any coffee shop that would be located in this facility would pay a base 26 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 rent of a minimum of $1,092.72 based on $80,000 worth of tenant improvements, to a maximum of $1,362.58 based on $120,000 worth of tenant i ,mprovements. And also that any tenant in that space would guarantee those tenant improvements, personany guarantee them. That means putting them, a letter of credit or personal guarantee. If for some reason the coffee shop is not successful, that they would reimburse us for those tenant i ,mprovements. I've also laid out monthly sales and base rent comparison in the report showing you what the rent would be based on the Friends of the Library's proposal. I know Jill Shipley's here this evening. If you have any questions of her as a part of the Friends of the Library, and staff is ready to answer any questions that you have. Mayor Jansen: Okay. I have one question. I know that in the process of our reviewing different coffee shops you had done quite a bit of research for us as far as some of the existing coffee shops in the other libraries throughout the area. Did you find in those instances any city operated or owned or what was the city contribution to those coffee shops? Todd Gerhardt: Very minimal. I think Chaska's the only one that provided assistance. They bought a gentleman a coffee cart in that case and I think they're not charging him rent for the space as it sits in the lobby area. I think there is percentage of the sales, Justin am I correct on that? That they would get a percentage of the sales from the coffee cart. Mayor Jansen: The city would? Todd Gerhardt: Yes. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Todd Gerhardt: The other city that has one is in Prior Lake. That individual had to make all the tenant improvements himself and I think at a minimum that was $80,000. It was a little more of an elaborate coffee cart. They did have a comer in, just outside the lobby area, in the entrance to the library book space. Another library coffee shop proposal was in Roseville. They provided basically space within their library. That was Dunn Brothers. They made over $300,000 worth of improvements to that facility. It had a second story to it for people to go up a set of steps to have coffee and overlook the library space. Councilman Peterson: Dunn Brothers did that or who? Todd Gerhardt: Dunn Brothers made those tenant improvements. And they pay approximately $55,000 a year. You know that's the best example of a successful coffee shop in the Twin Cities area. There's also one over in the Ridgedale library service. I did not do a lot of research on that to find out what they were paying in rent. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you for sharing that with us. At this point, with the RFP, were we to receive a proposal that was consistent with the RFP that you put together, are you still favorable towards looking at an application of that type? Todd Gerhardt: I think we have the space that can accom~te that. As we put out the Request for Proposal, I think we were a little light on our rent amount. As you go through and amortize interest and the timeframe associated with those tenant improvements, I think that's something we should have probably looked at a little closer when we put out that request. I think we were under $1,000 for rent on that one. So if we were to negotiate with a private group right 27 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 now it would be one thing I'd adjust to it. And if we're going to make those tenant improvements, I could support a coffee shop going in there. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And at this point as the construction has proceeded since we've been unsure of the proposal that would actually come in in that space, we did do the rough in to allow for the future possibility of there being a coffee shop in that location, correct? As far as the plumbing and elecu'ical needs. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah. There is a bathroom just to the south of this area so there is water in the wall. We are asking that the contractor, when he paves the concrete floor, that he allow for a knock out to occur without disruption of the entire area or the footings in the walls. So that would be a minimal improvement, so we are accommodating for that as a pan of the current construction at a minimal cost. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Alright. So just so we're all clear on all of the conversation that's occurred, and there's been a great deal of conversation around coffee shop and how we accomplish this. It of course is one of the amenities that as we came through the public hearings, we obviously were hearing that we would like to see some sort of a coffee shop facility in this building. That it would in fact be an amenity as far as our residents are concerned so as we proceeded with the plans for the building, we did approach numerous of the private businesses in town wanting to give them the first opportunity to be able to bid for this project, and in fact we found that there was no interest. As we proceeded with the plans for the library and the building committee was working on that, as it was designated by the architect, that space was shown to have not just plain vending machines, and I don't know how to describe this but you can't call them designer vending machines but definitely a step up from what we all think of when you think of a vending operation. So that was his suggestion when we were unable to come up with a private entity to come in and actually nm this coffee shop, so that at least we'd have an alternative in place. It was after that that we proceeded with a formal RFP to see what organizations outside of the community, if we could maybe find some other interests to actually come in and mn this privately and that was the RFP that Mr. Gerhardt referred to that we did not receive any interest from a private company to actually come in and run the coffee shop. So at this point the only proposal that we have before us is from the Friends of the Library and we certainly appreciate all the effort that's gone into putting the plan together and at this time, if I could invite Jill Shipley to come forward, I know that she's put a tremendous amount of effort into pursuing this and if there's detail on the project that you'd like to share with us specifically, certainly do so at this time. And what we'll do is have some conversation as a council and make sure that we're giving proper direction as to how we foresee this project going forward, and the question is, how much public money would in fact go into an endeavor like this, because that wasn't something that we've addressed at this point is actually the city funding. So come on up and let's have a conversation. Good evening. I haven't seen you in a while. Jill Shipley: Thank you. It's a pleasure for me to be here at your last meeting as well. Where do we start here.* Councilman Ayotte: Name and address. Jill Shipley: I'm Jill Shipley at 261 Eastwood Court. I think what this all boils down to is that we went to referendum in September of 2000 specifying a coffee shop in the library plans. We heard from people that they wanted a coffee shop and it's listed, and if anybody needs to see the needs assessment, I have copies right here that I can pass out that show. 28 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay, what we don't want to do this evening though is give an impression that we've communicated that we're doing a coffee shop because the information that went out to the public in both the city documents as well as the vote yes, don't mention specifics and that was intentional on the entire facility because from the needs assessment, and the feasibility study, that then led to the further discussions and refinement of the plan. And it of com~e doesn't say anything about whether the city's going to, it doesn't say the city is going to fund a coffee shop, and I know we're getting caught in terminology but what we don't want to have there be an impression of is that the city at all said to the voters for this referendum, specifics about what would be in the building and this was the information that was related to the public and nowhere in there does it mention anything about a coffee shop or a fire place or any of the specifics because the feasibility study in fact even says, you know these are guidelines that we're working with. So again, so there isn't any misunderstanding, that is strictly a docmnent that guides the city and Roger, you know maybe you can speak more specifically to the legalities of what the city's actually locked into as far as the referendum and the language and feasibility studies and. Roger Knutson: Mayor, the city is locked into the ballot language. That is what the voters approved and you gave them information, general information, but you're not bound by, bound legally by anything specific like fireplaces or coffee shops or so many books or so many anything. You just said in your ballot question, shall the City Council of the City of Chanhas~ authorize issuance of general obligation bonds not to exce~ $6 million for the purpose of the acquisition and betterment of the building to be used for a public library and ancillary related purposes. That's what you're legally committed to. Mayor Jansen: Okay. I know that at the time that we were pulling the ballot question together, and again the Friends worked with us on this as well, there was some concern as to the ballot language not allowing us to spend library dollars on something other than the library. So if I'm not mistaken, we're at least within this language committed to whatever goes into this library but we can't do anything but something associated to the library. Roger Knutson: Yes that's correct, and that was a lengthy and good discussion on what the language in this ballot should be and that' s why it is what it is. If we want to use. anywhere else for anything else, just for this. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Alright. Jill Shipley: So then as I understand it, as long as it's for a library related purpose or ancillary purpose you can use the funding from the referendum to do a project like this. Roger Knutson: Again I don't know what your budgets are and I don't know whether you can afford it or whether it's a good idea or bad idea but if you find that it's an integral part of a library, could you use this money for it? Yes. That doesn't mean you have to. That's obviously your tough decision. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Jill Shipley: I'm glad to know that it's available and I'd like to explain how the Friends would like to use their supposed allocation of 1,200 square feet in the new library. I realize that we're not going to accept the needs assessment as fact but the Friends are allocated some space there. And we would like, for purposes of this discussion, to call this the Friends space, rather than a 29 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 coffee shop because you're misleading the public when you talk about a full service coffee shop in this. This is by no means a full service coffee shop. Mayor Jansen: What you're proposing? Jill Shipley: No. Well yeah, what's available. If you wanted a full service coffee shop, and if you decided the city was in the business of making profit and should go into a retail venture, certainly you would have allocated more space than currently exists for this. This cannot be a full service coffee shop, and we have no intentions of trying to promote it as one, but we'd like to use the Friends space as a means of promoting the library. Promoting reading and literacy. Promoting community, which as I understand it is the major thrust of this whole development. The reason for allocating the $800,000 to build the park, because we're building a wonderful, friendly, dynamic community gathering place that's going to bring everyone together in this community. And it's our contention that it would be better to be able to provide some type of friendly light beverage and snack service administered by a friendly person who smiled, rather than just have vending machines. We are proposing that this Friends space be equipped to service light food and beverage needs, but also have the capability of supporting the programs that we do for the library. Now I think we should maybe just step back a minute and talk about what value friends organizations are to their communities. For your information, the ST. Paul Friends Group gave $98,725 from their operating funds to the St. Paul Library in 1999. That was the annual report I had. With their grants that they applied for, the total value of their contributions to their library was $1.8 million. Hennepin County last year gave $80,000 through their foundation to their library. People, we're not talking about insignificant chunks of change here, and in this economy where budgets are being cut at every level of government from the State to the County to the City I understand, I think it's in your best interest since your voters have wanted a $6 million library, for you to work to support and strengthen the Friends organization that exists to support your library and to build community in this city. And this is one means of us doing that, is by havii~g the Friends space. Have the capability' of generating revenue. Last year, or this year in 2002, we contributed to $6,000 to the Chanhassen Library. That's double what we contributed in 2001. I would love for it to be more, but we're a growing organization. We're focused on building our assets at the same time on saving for something for the new library as well, so we didn't donate every penny we made. We're trying to build some value and create some investments that will generate some income as well. But you know when we presented the strategic plan, which every one of you liked and complimented us on, that obtaining revenues from the coffee shop was a component of our third strategy, which was increasing the value and increasing the solidarity, strength and ability of...So in this space we would like to promote reading by creating reading cards for children that we pass out or that are handed out in the library. And when they come back in and their reading card is filled out, we can say hey, good job Tony. We're going to give you this Cow Jumped Over the Moon cookie. Councilman Ayotte: How come he gets it? We're going to vote on this. Councilman Labatt: Because you can't accept it. Jill Shipley: And when somebody walks in with a box of books to donate to our book sale we want to say, thank you very much. Have a complimentary latte on us. We appreciate that. So that was the concept which kind of drove the way we configured our approach and our contract with the vendor that we found to work with. Now the city has tried twice to find a vendor to come into this spot. Believe me, raising the rent as you just talked about doing, isn't going to make it any easier for you. Lowering it may. It's not ideal configuration and there's a good 30 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 enough return on investment for your Starbuck's or your Caribou or any of those companies to come in here. But finding a small independent who's willing to partner with us in creating wonderful programs for the library is a doable optiom That does work. We have found the person. We've interviewed lots and lots of people for this project. We've talked to turnkey operations like Viking Food Service. We've talked to some of the people who nm the kiosks out at the airport. We've talked to coffee shop owners in the community. We found someone that we think is just fabulous, that's very altruistic, very community oriented, who has a proven track record of building a, or working a coffee shop as a means of building community. That was precisely what their charge was in Elliott Park, the neighborhood that they're currently in. They use their coffee shop, they put computers in it so that all the ethnic people living in the area who don't have access to computers and can't get to the library, can get to the coffee shop and use them there. They've just done a wonderful job. They are so excited about coming into a h'brary and working with our programming here. When we have an event like Vince Splin, like we had a couple weeks ago, we had to have a way of tracking me--hip, or tracking who was coming. This would provide a vehicle for us to give out tickets to those who are entitled to them. It also provides a way of supporting our Project Happy Birthday, which is one of our signature programs in the southwest metro area, really in the state. There's no other library system that has anything like that, and we've done a fabulous job with that and that program of course is getting children into the library at the age of 1 and every year there, aRer promoting xvntding and library usage at an early age. Referendum dollars are there to do this build-out- The voters approved it. We would like you, we would like to ask you to spend the money to continue the build-out- We understand that the pipes are being sludged in or whatever the word is that you said, but what are we waiting for? The money's there now. Why would you want to wait a couple years to do this? It doesn't make sense. There is an excitement and enthusiasm about this new library, and the new park that's about to come. There's no reason to wait to do it. Do you have any questions for me? Mayor Jansen: Any questions council? Councilman Ayotte: I have a bunch of questions but I don't know who to ask, whether you because I'm getting so damn confused now because what I thought was the issue at- the front end is different than what I'm hearing now. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: 'Should we ask now or should we? Mayor Jansen: Why don't we get it clarified to you as to what we're doing this evening. The question, do you want to take a shot at it or do you want me to? Todd Gerhardt: Well the question is, is do you want to fund the development of a coffee shop in the new library. From when we prepared the request for proposal, I thought I heard the council say they wanted to see a fully serf-supporting is probably a better term. A self-supporting coffee shop in this facility and one that would not receive assistance from the city. And I understand the Friends of the Library would like to develop a coffee shop, use the revenues from that'to fund their operation and providing the many wonderful services that they provide to the kids and adults in getting them to read and to use the library facilities. Councilman Ayotte: Is that self supporting? First off, if we use referendum dollars, I'm hearing that the baseline amount of referendum dollars needed to construct, I don't want to say coffee shop because you said something else. 31 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Jill Shipley: The Friends space. Councilman Ayotte: Say again? Jill Shipley: Build out the Friends space. Councilman Ayotte: Build out Friends space. Not coffee shop. But it's 80K. So there's a basis of estimate that says there's 80K that we would use for referendum dollars, of referendum dollars to build, what'd you call it? Jill Shipley: The Friends space. Councilman Ayotte: I like that now. Friends space. Which is different than a coffee shop. Is that different than a coffee shop? Jill Shipley: Correct. Councilman Ayotte: Okay, Friends space. So f'trst off, what I'm hearing that she's talking about is different than a coffee shop. Number two, the idea of using referendum dollars, if there was 80K available of referendum dollars to do something for Friends space, what would not get done? And could we impose the requirement that it would be self-supporting and what would be the return to the community for the Friends space to have space provided to them. We get services. There's valuation of those services, and it' s self-supporting. Last part of that. I understood once upon a time that there was space not called for as yet in the library that we weren't going to have a full up library. That we had holes in it in terms of not having all floor space account for. Is that a true, I thought there was a point where we weren't completely. Mayor Jansen: Opening at full capacity? Is that what you're referring to? Councilman Ayotte: Yeah. Yeah. Mayor Jansen: That involves the County budget. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, and that's just the book area. Councilman Ayotte: Just the book, but I'm saying is there a trade-off option for more floor space, and is there a correlation between more floor space and 'the generation of more revenue? Todd Gerhardt: Not in the area we're talking about. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. So if there was an allocation of referendum dollars, what's the basis of estimate for the 80K? Councilman Boyle: 80 to 120. Councilman Ayotte: 80 to 120, which is a significant range. What's that basis of estimate again? Todd Gerhardt: Where did we get the estimate from? For developing the Friends space was from Barry Petfit the architect. 32 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: Okay. That was to build something. Todd Gerhardt: It was to build counters, roll down cage, stainless steel sink.% refrigerators, oven. No refrigerator? Jill Shipley: No. We're providing the refrigerator. Todd Gerhardt: Okay. No refrigerator. And cabinets and then the plumbing for all those. Councilman Ayotte: And would the, whatever would be generated in terms of revenue, where I was confused is, that money would come in and it would, it was the intention of the Friends of the Library to put it back into the library in what fashion? What constraints? What p~? What targets are associated with it going back to the library? Buy books? Buy what? You know. Mayor Jansen: I think that's part of what we need to uaderstand as a part of the policy decision that the council is being faced with. This would involve, and again going back to the original conversations about the potential of putting a coffee shop in thi.q building, it was never the city's intent to build a coffee shop and that's where the city was looking to private organizations to do that. So when that didn't come through, now we're having a conversation about whether or not the city will commit funds, 80 to 120,000, in order to be able to create right now this coffee shop concept. And what Mr. Gerhardt has shared with all of us all along is the viability of the coffee shop. If we take public funds and put it into this space, 80 to 120,000, and it isn't successful, how do we then recoup the 80 to 120,000 that right now he's skeptical as to the viability, and how do you then re-use that space now that it's fixtured with all of this equipment. Councilman Ayotte: So it's the insurance issue, but then again what I'm hearing as the baseline, the Friends space discussion that Jill is pointing out seemed to be different than the, and has evolved different from what the coffee shop portion of it. Mayor Jansen: It is different. Councilman Ayotte: I'm just feeling too uncomfortable. First off, I don't feel comfortable at all about allocating 80 or 100K or 5 cents of referendum dollars until I have a very clear understanding of what, what this is, and I don't. I don't understand it because there's disparity between staff and Friends of the Library on that definition, as I view it. As I view it. I see some disconnect. Jill Shipley: The Friends space would serve coffee. And do a multit~d_e of other things that support... Councilman Ayotte: No, it's the multitude of other things that I'm having this, the part I'm a little confused on. Mayor Jansen: Right. Councilman Ayotte: Which won't be the first time. Councilman Peterson: They need to 120K is dedicated to selling coffee and other cookies and stuff like that primarily. That's not a point of question, right? 33 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Jill Shipley: Well there are, there is a certain mount of equipment that needs to be installed permanently into the library. It's unrealistic for the city to expect someone else to pay for that. Someone else will pay for blenders, refrigerators, ice machines, anything that you can walk in, plug into a receptacle, also remove again. Councilman Peterson: Agreed. Jill Shipley: The 80,000 would cover the cost of doing the counters, providing the triple sink that's required and the hand washing sink and the food prep sink, or whatever the, all the regulations are that the Health Department has and mandates. Councilman Peterson: Going back to your question, the 80K is dedicated to the coffee shop aspect and what the Friends is going to do. Councilman Ayotte: Not recurring costs. But the thing is, I'm still hearing a certain disparity became your name...that this renter would bring in that would be a good deal for the city, and Todd's naming off counters and so forth that would be a cost that would be employing referendum dollars. And I'd like to see what that bill of materials consist of. Personally I'd like to look at it a little bit, in a little bit more detail. I see the cost here but I don't see a concept drawing. I don't see a strong enough feel for me for the basis of estimate. Of course as a boiler point and I'm more anal than most, but that's a problem for me. Mayor Jansen: And I think part of the discrepancy between what you're saying and what we're trying to accomplish tonight. Tonight we're trying to set a policy as to whether or not, and give some direction. If more information is needed, there needs to be some direction from council if we're going to change our strategy from looking for a private entity. And if there isn't a private entity, the strategy was you know providing the vending facilities because the city had not committed to providing these kinds of dollars for a set-up without then getting them reimbursed and that was the whole point of having the rent and the lease schedule that you had .put together. There had been some conversation around that just recouping to the city the dollars that were being put into fixturing this space, correct? Todd Gerhardt: We used, you've got two scenarios. We used the request.for proposal in our justification for the 80 to 120,000 dollars woi-th of a tenant improvements to make the city whole on our investment and also see a 10% return on that just as you would in any private venture. What Jill is asking the City Council to do is to invest 80 to 120,000 dollars into the Friends space so they can use that as a revenue generator to fund the Friends of the Library activities. So what you're doing is you're adding a new service level to this community. You're providing a revenue generation machine in this Friends space to fund the Friends of the Library activities. So you've added a new service level to the community, investing 80 to 120,000 dollars into the Friends space so that they can generate revenue by selling coffee, cookies, ice drinks and sandwiches to any of the people that may attend the library. Councilman Ayotte: And what I'm saying is, in order for me to, for me to feel comfortable in floating a loan using city referendum dollars to provide a level of service. Todd Gerhardt: It's not a loan. Mayor Jansen: But you're not understanding what Todd's saying. It's not a loan. 34 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Todd Gerhardt: Jill's not asking for a loan. Jill Shipley: I'm asking for a one time investment to the Friends, much like building out a senior center for the seniors. Councilman Ayotte: But I don't have enough information to know what that pay back is. Mayor Jansen: There is none. There is none to the city. Councilman Ayotte: There is. There's some sort of measurable payback in terms of grojecting the community in terms of, you know there's some sort of valuation there. Jill Shipley: Yes there is. Mayor Jansen: Not meaning financial. Councilman Ayotte: But there's valuation. Mayor Jansen: Right, okay. Got you. Councilman Ayotte: But how do you equate that 80K to that valuation, and I want to know more about that before I say yes to anything. I don't feel comfortable in saying yes to using referendum dollars until I understand more what that valuation is, especially in this climate. Jill Shipley: You can establish a valuation. Councilman Ayotte: Well we need to do that before I say yes. Mayor Jansen: Understood. Okay. So, I mean just so we're clear. Todd, has the city spent money on a facility for another organization in the community to be able to generate their own revenue from? Todd Gerhardt: Not that I'm aware of. Jill Shipley: Is it a negative to be generating revenue? That goes back to your community and your library. Todd Gerhardt: What you're looking at is using referendum, city taxpayers money to invest in a Friends of the Library space/coffee shop for them to use that revenue that you use, to generate money to fund the Friends of the Library. It would be no different than the seniors coming in and asking you that they want to generate money and they want to nm a coffee shop in the library, and would you be willing to give them 80 to 120,000 dollars to invest in a coffee shop so they can fund their activities. Wood working or whatever it might be. It's a new level. You are providing revenue to the Friends of the Library to generate money. We are not funding the Friends of the Library currently. In one or two items we're going to be talking about a budget and we're talking about service cuts there and. Councilman Ayotte: That's my very point. That's why I'm not comfortable in doing it. Todd Gerhardt: Well I would hope not. 35 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Right, understood. Todd Gerhardt: You know for what we went through the last 3 months, and what we're doing to our city budget as a part of that, to expand services, I can't believe that you would consider that at this time. Mayor Jansen: Okay, and just so we're all cie, ar, and the example that Todd just gave as to if the senior organization came in. Where the seniors have an organization that the city does have control of. I mean it's the senior commission. We're talking about an entity that for all intents and purposes is independent of the city. The city would have no control technically over what was happening with this organization. Similar to the Chamber of Commerce. Chamber of Commerce has an executive director that is in charge of all of their activities and what they do and they have a Board of Directors. Friends of the Library has an executive director and a board who's in charge of everything that they do as far as activities, revenue generation, the whole 9 yards. So again we would be taking referendum dollars and city dollars, even if it isn't referendum. City taxpayer dollars is what we're talking about, to create a space for an organization to generate revenues. In this situation it's going back into the library. So what those activities are in general would be for the library, but it is a separate organization from the city. So that's where you're establishing a policy or a precedent in what we decide is appropriate to do this evening. We're also assuming that the dollars will be there, which hopefully they will be because fight now we're well under what the voters approved. There will be some additional cost as the landscaping is taken care of because that's not in the dollars that we're seeing currently, correct? As far as once the plaza and the estimated. Todd Gerhardt: As a part of the city commons development, the plaza area between the east parking lot and the entrance has changed. And as a part of that we would ask the council to change order number 9 or something like that, we'll ask the council to delete the landscaping plan as a part of the library and reintroduce' that landscaping plan into the city center commons, and that's estimated at about $125,000. Mayor Jansen: That's with the original plans, correct7 Todd Gerhardt: Correct. Mayor Jansen: That's not with the revised plans'as we've put them together for the city center commons. Todd Gerhardt: Right. The $125,000 comes from the landscape plan for the library and that would just be a delete. And then you would transfer that $125,000 over into the city center commons construction budget because they would then build the plaza area inbetween. Mayor Jansen: And still considered pan of the library since it is servicing the entrance to the library, and was part of the original library plan. Todd Gerhardt: Correct. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Jill Shipley: Does this proposal in any way diminish your goal of building community7 36 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Oh absolutely not. That's not something that this cotmcil has ever questioned. In fact from the very beginning we have so much wanted to see this turn into more of a full service center in the library. That was by far the number one goal and we too were disappointed when all we could achieve were the vending opportunities, so it's not to diminish what you're trying to accomplish and we all, like you said, we heard your strategic plan. It's phenomenal. What we're doing, what we're having to evaluate now is the policy that would have to be put into place, that the city would now be providing space for an organization separate from the city to provide this retail space, as it would be. We would be using city funds, 80 to 120,000 dollars worth of public dollars, taxpayer dollars, to put this facility in place when our original intent was to provide a private organization the space to be able to come in and do this. Not the city, and that was the same concept that we looked at from the other cities. One of the proposals that we brought forward in the building committee as we were looking at potentially staging this. If there isn't going to be the traffic initially, and that was also within your own projections as far as the retail generation from out of this spot. This location. If it's going to take time to build up to the revenues that could support it, can we stage this concept. Provide the space. Have it roughed in, but maybe it starts as a coffee carl Maybe it needs to be something that right now is more realistic and eventually then works up to more of a coffee shop space and maybe there ends up being a donor that wants to come in and actually see this space expanded. Maybe it's, I don't know. Go ahead Craig. Jill Shipley: We would be very willing to have a coffee cart, excuse me Mayor, but do you understand that if you have a coffee cart, the Health Department will require you to have built-in sinks, and storage areas... Mayor Jansen: Understood. That was part of the whole conversation. Jill Shipley: So if you wanted to take this plan, which has been created, and the blue on this plan shows what we would consider the city's part to be, and the gold is what we would consider the Friends, along with their coffee vendor's part to be, you could very easily make this part a coffee cart, if that's what you wanted. That would work. But there will still have to be these built-in's done, so since the money is available and since we are projecting a customer stream through the library the day the doors open that will support the proposal that we've done, I think we should be moving forward with it and I don't think that it requires the new policy because I think Roger has already said that it's legal to do it. And you could, and to address Bob's concern about not knowing exactly what you're going to get, you could authorize that MS&.R work with the Friends to develop the most cost efficient plan and authorize expenditures of not more than $80,000 to achieve the plan, which is a benefit to the community and we could make this all happen tonight. Mayor Jansen: Okay council, do you have any additional questions for Ms Shipley while we have her at the podium. Councilman Peterson: No more questions. Comments. Mayor Jansen: Okay. I'm going to bring this back to council so thank you. I appreciate your comments and I'm going to bring this back to council now and we'll have a conversation around the proposal that we have in front of us. Appreciate it. But I do want it to be understood that it is a policy question. Whether the dollars are there or not, it's whether the city is going to provide this type of facility for an organization to nm, and that is the question. Jill Shipley: May I make one other comment? 37 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Certainly. Jill Shipley: Thank you. Your residents have voted 6 million dollars for this library. I certainly hope that you have the foresight to be watching what is happening with this library. I think the Friends of the Library have already proven themselves and have already positioned themselves to be a connector with the city in overseeing the library. We are the ones that put the advocacy plan together this summer. We spent lots of hours working to make sure that the County Commissioners approved the funding for this new library. I think you could very easily establish that connection that you have with the seniors where they are enabled to ask you for money and you're able to give them money, even if they don't generate revenue that goes back to the community. You're able to give them money and do things for them. I think you're able to establish that connection with the Friends, and I think it would be a wise move on your part to do that so that you ensure that the library is open 60 hours a week. Or that it does have enough computer to serves our needs, or does have enough materials. So I just want to make you aware that maybe that's a need that needs to be addressed, and needs to be discussed and maybe that is the clinching deal that makes us more worthy of your support or whatever it is you're trying to say. I mean I'm not understanding how, how the people in Roundhouse Park, you can allocate $40,000 off the top of your heads for those people when we have passed a referendum that has stated a coffee shop in it and we have the dollars available and your community has approved this. Mayor Jansen: Okay, you're stretching now but appreciate that. And again, I'm going to emphasize because myself and of course Steve Labatt. have been with this issue for 4 years now. This council has certainly supported it emphatically for the last 2. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that the Friends does a significant service to the library. And whatever this coffee shop has become as far as a means by which the Friends would like to generate revenue, we're not saying that that's a bad thing. You do wonderful things. The question is to the council whether it's appropriate to use 80 to 120,000 dollars of public taxpayer dollars to provide this facility to an organization that quite frankly isn't that different from you know let's say a Chamber of Commerce, with an executive director, a board and is also acting in the best interest of the community for our businesses. We set a precedent. Where do you draw the line on organizations that are coming in looking for city funding of projects to enable them to do wonderful things for the community2 We are blessed with numerous service organizations that do a tremendous fund raising and donations actually to the city. Again, we can't play favorites. We have to distinguish what it is we're accomplishing here this evening. No one on this council has ever voiced an opposition to a coffee shop. That's the concept that we pursued. We tried to accomplish. We appreciate the fact that the Friends have come forward with a proposal. I'm going to voice my own opinion at this point. I would emphatically encourage the Friends...so where you are establishing your own location, your own space, you want it to be the Friends space. We've allocated the space for the Friends or for a coffee shop. We have juggled things around to try to rna~ it the size necessary for the concept that was proposed, but we are, what I am philosophically opposed to is using taxpayer dollars, though they approved a 6 million dollar referendum, that doesn't mean we have to spend it. We are charged with spending it as efficiently and effectively in their best interest as possible. And to me that means we've got a location in the library where we would prefer to have a private organization come in and provide a service to our community, and it will be in competition to other private coffee shops within the community. Should we as a public organization be putting a location in our library that's competing with our private sector7 I don't know again that that's the proper use of taxpayer dollars, but I would encourage the Friends to continue on your mission. You've grown and continued to pursue your strategic plan as an organization so dramatically, just since the approval 38 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 of the new library. I mean your executive director is just woridng like crazy. You've got tons of opportunity out there as far as your strategic plan initiatives. You're going to be and are already a significant part of the organization and of the success of the library for the community. But my opinion, and I'm just one vote, is that it would not be appropria~ for the city to use taxpayer dollars to put this kind of facility in place, and if we end up not fully using the referendum funds, I would love to be the first one to be able to say to the taxpayers, we did this as cost effectively as possible. And we looked for the oppommity to be able to put this private entity into the h'brary but we were unable to fund it. But we left the space. We had the vision to say potentially in the future this might be feasible, a private organi?afion might look at it and say yep, we can make a buck in here so we're going to come in. The space is allocated and they do it. So that's why we did go ahead and do the rough in and try to provide at least the space for the futura so those are my two cents council, and at this point ff we could, we're an hour into this, if we could maybe hear further comment because what we're looking for is some direction to staff at this point as to where we go with this, and I don't mean Brian, I know that you had gotten up in visitor presentations, if there's more that you'd like to add to this. I don't know if you've had an opportunity as a council elect to spend some time with Mr. Gerhardt to get more of the specifics, but this is certainly an issue that you'd be able to address then in January, ff you'd like. Brian Lundquist: Mayor Jansen, if I could just make a couple quick comments. Mayor Jansen: Certainly. Brian Lundquist: My name is Brian Lundquist. I live at 7281 Conestoga Court. Mayor, I'm going to echo your sentiments about the two issues that I.have and that several of my neighbors also share, who did vote for the library referendum as well. That two big issues, concerns are, one. That the city would be investing tax dollars to aid a private for profit organization. It's one thing if it's the Friends in a space generating profit, revenue to help their cause, but this is a for profit organization making money as well. Mayor Jansen: Just so I'm clear on what you just said Brian, and not to interrupt. The Friends is a non-profit. Brian Lundquist: Right. Mayor Jansen: So you're okay with a non-profit, is that what I'm hearing you say, but if we did have a private entity that was coming in, are you thinking like a Starbueks or a Caribou or something like that? Brian Lundquist: No matter what it is. If we're going to invest taxpayer dollars, it shouldn't be a private organization that's going to profit from those dollars, unless there's a guarantee similar to what Mr. Gerhardt talked about and so that the city isn't on the hook for any dollars on that. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Brian Lundquist: And the second is, the precedent that we'd be setting if we were to take the profits, the revenue generated from this and donated solely to the operating budget for the Friends. Not that they're going to spend their money unwisely but again: it's taxpayer dollars that are going to fund an organization that's not controlled by the council and don't have any effect over that. That it would be a dangerous precedent to set and we could have organiTafions lining up down the block to do similar things so I think the Friends space is a great concept, but we just 39 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 need to do a little bit more work and study on this issue so that we can come up with something that's a little less risk and impact to all the taxpayers. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you for your comments. Okay, council. If we could go to comments please. Councilman Peterson: Mine will be very brief. I think my only issue always has been, and the reason why we gave staff direction to go out and find a for profit entity to take on this, is that it would be in direct competition with the current businesses. That for us to use public dollars for that is just, it, I've never seen it done. It certainly hasn't been done in Chanhassen and I certainly wouldn't be supportive of doing it now. So my position hasn't changed for months. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: Well first off, coincidentally Jill said Roundhouse. I wrote down Roundhouse. That we did provide money to that organization to project the community. To build community so I believe strongly in the objective, the goal that Jill has targeted. I also see the point of city staff, and this councilman is not going to vote to expend referendum dollars at this point. However there is a pony in the pile, and I really think that we have to come to some means of seeing where we can get to where we both want to be, and that is a self-supporting program. The direction that Hoffman's beginning to work towards in Parks and Rec where we're been beating him up left and right to get there. So since we've beaten him up left and right, let's beat up the Friends of the Library along the same approach. So what I'd like to do is table this and tweak the objectives to a point and see how we can come to a conclusion where we can have a self, a program that pays for itself, possibly generate some revenue not only to support activities within the library but maybe in a couple of other areas, and build on what Hoffman has started in Parks and Rec because when we started in the parks and rec area we had the $8,000 for softballs as a cost reduction. Now he's talking 100K, so I know it can be done and so I would ask the rest of the council to consider tabling this so we can work it more, because there is a win/win opportunity here. So I don't want to just kill it. I want to see where we can get to a win/win. Have it support itself. Maybe generate some revenue, and where there is little or no risk to the community, and I agree with what Mr. Lundquist has said in large part, but I think there is a pony in the pile. That's a Boyle term incidentally. Councilman Boyle: I've never heard that. Mayor Jansen: I don't understand it but, if tonight what we could do, to your point Mr. Ayotte, I don't know that we necessarily need to table as much as give direction. And what I just heard you give was very specific direction on self-supporting program and when you're saying self- supporting program, are you also then saying that they're providing the fixmdng for their space? Councilman Ayotte: What I'm saying is that we start doing some valuation of what Jill is proposing. See what that is, and compare cost to benefit. That's what I'd like to see in this whole thing. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Additional comments? Councilman Labatt: I'd be curious as to what the arrangement with Chaska has done at their community center with their little snack bar, caf6 type thing. Right up on the main level. 40 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Todd, didn't you look into that one? Todd Gerhardt: The city took taxpayers dollars and invested a caf6 into their community center and have gone out and hired a catering, vending company to operate that facility. So they expanded their service level in that community center and do get some revenue out of that, but they did not do it as a means to pay for itself. It was not, they just wanted to have the convenience of anybody having kids at swimming lessons to have a place to sit and have a pop or coffee or whatever it is. Mayor Jansen: So similar concept to what this would be if the city were to actually put it in. Todd Gerhardt: Right. Expand the service level. Mayor Jansen: Okay. They are operating at a deficit if I understood right. Correct? I mean you said it's not paying for itself. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, it was never, I don't think it was ever their intent to reduce the debt that they invested in there so it was never to pay for itself. Mayor Jansen: And so it's not. Todd Gerhardt: Right. And they're not subsidizing the vending company, that I know, to be in that place. To provide that service. So they're not seeing a lot of revenue, if any revenue back from the vending company. Mayor Jansen: Okay. That was my understanding also. Any other questions or comments? Councilman Labatt: Well I'm kind of leaning on Ayotte here and 'I figure there's a value to this, to our residents. I think that we need to have an agreement here and a deal that's a little bit more massaged and a little more advantageous to the city. All our taxpayers are on the hook as much, SO. - Mayor Jansen: To potentially make back some of the upfront investment that would be required or is that where you're going? Councilman Labatt: Yeah that and you know, to look at the potential company, whatever company it is, to make an investment rather than bring in blenders and temporary things. You know put a little capital into it and so that way we know it's not, we're not on the hook so other than I think something can be done. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Boyle: My turn? Mayor Jansen: It's your turn. Councilman Boyle: I agree. I think there's a horse in the hay. What'd you call it, something? Pony in the. Mayor Jansen: Pony in the pile. 41 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Councilman Boyle: Oh, pony in the pile. Jill, as you know, I really believe in this concept, very much so, but in the current environment, if we were to gather up $80,000 and say here you are, we wouldn't be doing the right thing. Not to the taxpayers at this time. I don't know what the result would be if we do table and bring it back. I think, I normally don't agree with Bob in everything. I think there might be a way that we can do this and still get this service for the community. There must be a way. Mayor Jansen: And again we're giving direction so absolutely appropriate to make the comment that you did. I don't know that we necessarily need to table as much as make a motion that includes your recommendation as to what you would like to have staff looking for. Councilman Boyle: Good question. Councilman Labatt: Well I think Ayotte said it pretty good, not to put him on the spot but. Mayor Jansen: What I think I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you would like to see a proposal that would include, to use Bob's term, a self-supporting one that would include a concept for a self-supporting program. You two, want to see the cost benefit of the proposal, whether that's financial or you just want to see the warm, fuzzy benefit to the, I had to say that. The warm, fuzzy benefit to the community. So the benefits to the community that aren't necessarily financial. Because I think we've all identified we see a value in it. What were your, I think those were the key points. And any potential analysis of return to the city of it's investment. Councilman Boyle: And that's not going to be in the first year or the first 5 years probably. Mayor Jansen: No, and Gerhardt wasn't proposing that. He did put some suggestions together as to. Councilman Boyle: Just so we all understand that. Mayor Jansen: Yep. So that's what you'd like to see more detail on, is what I'm hearing. Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, and I'll call it valuation of, if there was a way that we could put a valuation on the service to the community against that 80K or 120K. But I really think that there's an oppommity here and I really think we're close. People keep on getting the sense that we're not close. But we are. A lot of work has gone on and we're getting closer and closer to a resolution and an opportunity here and I'd like to go, you know. Hoffman and the boys, I'm usually a little negative but have done so well in such a short time, that gives me a very optimistic view that this can happen again. It really can with Jill's efforts. Mayor Jansen: Pursuing these particular points is what council would like to direct staff to work on because, and I think Todd also has heard the consistent message that we want this type of service provision in the library if it can be done and under these parameters is now what I'm hearing the council say. We definitely want to encourage that development. The ideal would have been to have a private organization come in, but if there's something that we can do with the Friends to accomplish this, and you're willing to look long term but you want to see the return to the taxpayers of the money that's gone into help finance their endeavor up front. 42 City Council Meeting - Dece~ 9, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: And it doesn't have to be 80K. I think we can m-visit that too. There may be ways of mitigating that cost in some fashion. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Peterson: Aren't we essentially saying what Todd's recommending is that he's got two conditions that the city must receive rent that covers the principle...i ~mprovements. Councilman Ayotte: No, I think that's too restrictive. I don't think that at all. I think what I said was, I'd like to see a further discussion, further dialogue to see if we can affix valuation to what Jill has proposed. I'd like to see whether or not there axe other ways of getting to where we want to go, that is some sort of Friends space within the library that would be a service to the community, but not at the expense of taxpayers revenue dollars. Mayor Jansen: And just so we're clear, there is designated Friends space. It's not designated for this particular purpose but the square footage is designated. Okay. I'm going to make a motion that the City Council directs staff to, like you haven't put enough effort into this whole project already and I mean that to Jill as well. You both have worked very hard on this. My motion is going to be that we direct staff to work with the applicant to bring back to the council an analysis of proposals that would one, provide a self-supporting program and everything that would be encompassed in that definition. Two, the cost benefit of the proposal including some sort of a valuation on the services that would be provided to the community out of this space as a result of the city's investment. And three, the potential and .a plan for the return to the city of some portion, if not all of the upfront investment. That would be my motion. Councilman Ayotte: Friendly amendment? Mayor Jansen: Certainly. Councilman Ayotte: That we include the comment about a pony in the pile versus a horse in the hay because of the size of the horse versus the pony. No? Mayor Jansen: I don't think so. If I could have a second please. Councilman Ayotte: Second. Mayor Jansen: Any discussion of the motion? Todd Gerhardt: The pony eats more hay, it becomes a horse. Mayor Jansen moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council direct staff to work with the applicant to bring back to the council an analysis of proposals for a coffee shop in the library that would one, provide a self-supporting program and everything that would be encompassed in that definition. Two, the cost benefit of the proposal including some sort of a valuation on the services that would be provided to the community out of this space as a result of the city's investment. And three, the potential and a plan for the return to the city of some portion, ff not all of the upfront investment. Ali voted in favor and the motion carried nnanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. 43 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: And again I want to emphasize to the Friends that we are in concept in agreement with what you're trying to accomplish, and if anything we are you know enthusiastic about the fact that you've put as much effort as you have into trying to get this accomplished. Otherwise it would have simply failed. It's still a discussion. We've roughed in the space based upon the potential of realizing that when you folks put your mind to something, you get it done, and this community is so fortunate to have a group like you that does apply their efforts simply for the betterment of the community and for this library. So keep up the good work. The space is there. The rough in has been put into place. It may just not be your ultimate proposal initially, but you know things can be worked up to and please work with Todd as far as bringing forward this information for the new council so they can take a look at it. But thank you for all your efforts. It's appreciated. Councilman Boyle: Nice job Jill. Mayor Jansen: Do we need a 5 minute break? Okay, 5 minute break. Back by, and started by 9:30 please. ADOPTION OF 2003 BUDGET. Mayor Jansen: Okay thank you. We will start again and now we're on agenda item number 12. A, the adoption of the 2003 budget and B, the adoption of the capital improvement plan, and if we could cover each of them separately and do the A approval and the move onto B, I think that would be appreciated. So staff report please. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council members. Bruce DeJ0ng has prepared a power point presentation that we'd like to present to the City Council prior to getting into comments and discussions on the 2003 budget. So at this time I'd like to introduce Bruce DeJong, our Finance Director. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Bruce DeJong: Thank you Mayor Jansen and Council members. I know you've heard all this before so I'll be very brief running through this. Maybe I won't. Maybe my computer fell asleep here. First thing we need to go through is just why we're here tonight.. The process. We're following the Truth in Taxation rules that the State of Minnesota has asked us to follow and those are that last week we presented the 2003 budget, the tax levy as proposed, and any major changes. We've talked about that with the public. We held a public hearing and received input and based on that input we have made some changes and tonight we're here to adopt the levy and the budget for next year. Those cuts that we made to the budget, based on the Truth in Taxation hearing, as Todd outlined in his memo, were $100,000 to street lights, $59,000 worth of park and recreation expenditures, cutting the community survey, and postponing hiring a street employee and other miscellaneous cuts of about $51,000 for a total of $262,000. The revenue enhancement that has been thought through by the Park and Recreation Department, they had a brainstorming session last week. They've come up with $40,000 worth of additional revenues that they believe they can come up with next year in their programs. What factors led to the increase in the levy. Well there's a few major ones. We used $350,000 worth of one time revenues last year to balance the budget, so just to get back to even and maintain the existing programs where they were, we had to increase the levy by $350,000. Next we've got some expenditure items that we've listed that have increased the police contract $76,000. I think Todd had $90,000 in there and I'm not, I City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 think that's probably just a small math difference based off of the actual amount that we had budgeted. Todd Gerhardt: I'll work on that. And that will show up in my review. Brace DeJong: If they can remember it next year. Pavement management, we've listed that line item up, $280,000. New finance employee. Salary inc~ on the current .emPloyees, adding the new library operating costs of about $34,000, increazses in liability insurance of about $30,000 and the net impact of the housing maintenance inspector program is about $12,000. The part of the budget and the levy that we have left then is the debt service and that is, the big thing is our TIF deficit estimated between 6.1 million and 7.3 million dollm's as I distributed last week. We've got identified sources that is made up of cash available. There's some additional revenue enhancements that we can do, but it's staff' s feeling that we should not be taking down our other funds without re-paying them so in some way, shape or form the tax levy should be used to refill that remaining $2.9 million deficit. And the 2004 debt levy increase will be mitigated by having the downtown TIF district coming back onto the general property tax rolls. We're estimating that at somewhere around $600,000 worth of tax generating capacity. When you look at the debt service levy projections, you can see that in 2005 and 2006 they start dropping off fairly dramatically going down to, I think it's only a million off of the current debt issues by the time we reach 2009. What we're trying to propose here is a methodolog3' that we can repay ourselves and mitigate future increases in the levy. I've included some assumptions in this tax levy scenario showing you how we can come through here with single digit increases off of our existing programs for the next few years and try to mitigate the amount of increased propel~ tax on the existing properties. What the assumptions are is that if we were to do this, we would have only salaried increases basically in the next 2 year budgets. In the 2004 and 2005, then get onto that roughly approximately 4% increase that we had talked about during our key financ~ strategies process for 2006 and years after that. What we'd have available is $815,000 to transfer to pay off our TIF debt each year through the cost savings and revenue enhancements that Todd'$ identified, and through the $515,000 pavement management levy. If we were to actually issue bonds for the pavement management program, and the equipment certificates which is shown under the new debt levy column in this layout. In essence what we're doing then is we are refinancing the TIN deficit by using the general levy to repay inter-fund loans. I think that's a much better process and policy than actually trying to go out and refinance bond issues that we should have paid off in a timely manner and have not done. What this ~s will do is it will stabilize the debt levy for a number of years and what we're doing is spreading out the burden of these TIF deficits over a 5 year time frame rather than just compressing it into the next 2 years. This keeps tax levy increases from 2004 close to the rate of inflation and to growth in our community. The staff recommendation is to adopt the tax levy and the budget as shown and as we go through this process in future years, continue looldng for sources of funds to apply against our TIF deficits. And that is my presentation on the budget. Mayor Jansen: Okay. This was the first that council had seen this new chaxt that you've put together. This tax levy scenario, and let me start by thanking you for putting this together and trying to project what this is going to look like to us through 2008. I thinl~ this is the most comprehensive estimate that we've seen. And obviously it's a moving target and we realize that these are strictly estimates for us at this time, but it's certainly, proposing some very real alternatives as to how the future councils will be able to handle this significant debt. I guess just so I'm clear on what I think I'm lmaring is you're, you're bonding for other programs that you technically would have used the levy for in a standard practice, and taking that portion of the levy then and applying it to the deficit. So you're taking the revenues, you're applying them to the 45 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 deficit, and you're raking some of these programs that we can bond for and you're bonding for them instead of to cover the TIF deficit. Bruce DeJong: That's correct Mayor Jansen. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Bruce DeJong: Well, I'll let you speak to that. Todd Gerhardt: The only thing I was going to add to that, it's better, it's a better story to tell to a bonding agency or Moody's in our case then to try to refinance the current TIF deficit. Trying to tell them, well we don't have enough increment to pay for these so we need to refinance them. So this is a better picture to tell Moody's and then you can show the revenue that's going to go along in paying off those equipment certificates or the road improvements. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So in the short term it's more expensive to us as a community, as you had explained it to us. For us to be using equipment certificates, or to be bonding for the pavement management program rather than levying for it. However, what we're gaining is a way to handle this additional debt that we'll be taking on as we're trying to handle the TIF deficit. So you've come up with a mechanism to try to actually give council a way to be able to handle it and maintain our bond rating. Bruce De. Jong: That's correct. We've tried to incorporate comments from Councilor Peterson about refinancing that debt and how we could accomplish that. We've had the discussion, it really is not an attractive thing to say here we are in 2004 with a big deficit and we need to refinance these bonds that should have been paid off. So rather than going out and issue refinancing debt, to go out and issue debt for new projects that are appropriate to a growing city that don't, you know I guess raise eyebrows, and then using general levy dollars to repay those. We're going to have to pay those bonds as they come due, and that's going to be accomplished through inter-fund borrowings, so whatever funds you borrow that from, presumably from the utility funds, you would want to be able to repay that particularly given the amount of utility projects that would already come on line during the course of the next 5 years. Mayor Jansen: So when you're showing us the new debt levy, that is taking into account all of these projects then that you're now saying we could bond for, but you would be levying for an amount that would help you cover the TIF deficit, or the funds that you borrowed from to repay those. Is that what I'm hearing'/ Am I repeating that correctly? Bruce DeJong: Yes, that's correct. And what that's based off of is, I did just a quick and dirty calculation of approximately what it would cost to repay $850,000 worth of equipment certificates which is about the amount that we've got in our capital improvement program for this year. Over the 5 year life that you can actually issue those for. That's really a maximum length. And that would be about $194,000 per year, and if we were to finance the $868,000 worth of street maintenance issues that we were looking at through the pavement management program, on an 8 year basis, which has been our practice, those special assessment bonds would cost you roughly $132,000 per year. That's where the $334,000 shown in that column comes from. And that assumes that you would continue doing that process and that's why it continues going up through the life of this chart. 46 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Councilman Peterson: While you're talking about that, I'm somewhat still confused on one of your first sheets. We're still saying that the levy is going up in 2003 for a variety of reasons, one of which was the pavement management of $280,000. But on this tax levy scenario we're saying that we're, I thought we were taking that out of the general levy so wouldn't that lower the percentage of levy increase? Brucc DeJong: Wcll wc have to lcvy it somewhere. Whcn I havc to follow thc proceduma that the State has set forward so when you set the preliminary Truth in Taxation levy September 15a, I have to send into the State of Minnesota a list of what we are levying and for which bond issues we are levying them for. So those debt service levies are set and cannot be raised, except for a referendum. What that means is that the only place that you can levy those dollars, and essentially what we're doing is turning a general fund levy into a debt service levy. Councilman Peterson: Just by mallocating it... Bruce DeJong: By re, allocating it. By transferring those funds out of the general fund. Mayor Jansen: So all of the initial staff recommended cuts that you expressed to us, you're suggesting are cuts that occur after we have set the levy so they occur next year as spending cuts or savings that then are applied to again your deficit situation or your debt payments, correct? You're not suggesting that we make the cuts this evening. You're suggesting we pass the levy as it is and these are incremental savings that you can accomplish into next year that Will give you more dollars towards your deficit situation, correct? Brace DeJong: Yes, that's correct. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Todd Gerhardt: Think of a better way to say that but. Councilman Ayotte: Your projected operational reduction is going to be used to buy down the debt. Todd Gerhardt: Yep, you've got it. ' Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Councilman Ayotte: Boy if I could figure it out. Councilman Peterson: But nobody heard it because you weren't .talking into the microphone. Todd Gerhardt: And that's a big pony in the wood pile. Mayor Jansen: So with that said, I guess I would like to start by coming back to staff's new information that they've given us here this evening as to the staff recommended cuts. And ask for comments and direction here. I know that street lights were thrown out as a concept to look at, but I'm going to start with my comments. Certainly I would not support, in concept, cutting the street lights. Now the only reason why I would even want to see this stay on this sheet is because it says complete feasibility study to justify. And again, back to my opening comments, the city exists to provide some pretty basic services to the community and though we've spoken about 47 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 what some of these light savings might consist of as far as what it would be targeting, I would certainly want to see that complete feasibility study before that happens and so I appreciate the fact that that's on here. But my comment is, that's not a place that I would feel eornfortable going as far as looking to do a cut. Your point number two is park and rec new revenues, and flipping to the memo that staff has provided for us, here is what is in that $40,000 as far as revenue generation. Increase recreation center punch card fees. Increase all recreational program fees. Charge a gate fee for 4~ of July fireworks. Charge more group room rental at recreation center. Initiate a $10 per year membership for senior center. Again, I think all of these proposals should certainly be evaluated before you go forward with these to the community and just implement therm As far as a gate fee for the 4th of July fireworks, I don't see that as a very positive message to be sending to the community as far as charging for a community event like that and how you would manage to encompass everyone when you know they sit all over the place to watch these fireworks in the community. I definitely see that as a negative. And initiating a $10 per year membership for our seniors center, I don't think that's the group you want to target for what I would consider to be an additional tax. Councilman Ayotte: Well you could do it once but then there would be a murder. Mayor Jansen: Yes there would be. I mean those are the two that stood out to me, but of course, though I appreciate and I commend staff for having pulled together a proposal based on council pummeling you to find revenue generating sources. Again we addressed the fact that the park and rex: commission has formed a committee to look at specifically that. I understand that, didn't all of staff sit down and do a brainstorming around revenue generation? Was it specifically park and rec? Todd Gerhardt: Pretty much park and rex: staff with Justin and I. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Well, appreciate the effort and I do think it's that form of brainstorming that your council's looking for as far as bringing proposals together and certainly don't feel as though it' s wasted time if those proposals come to council and they choose not to go forward with them. I think the point is, that you bring forward these types of initiatives so that at least they can see what potentially some of the oppommities might be, and also what some of the problems are with the public services being upped as far as the fees. But I think again council, as you go into next year, we are going to look at this. kind of revenue generation, there needs to be some good solid conversation around it. The community survey, it doesn't matter what my opinion is as far as what happens next year but I think as you're looking to give some policy direction to staff on service cuts, you might do a smaller survey potentially less costly, but I think that is one way to communicate to the community what services you're looking at as far as potential cuts and potential impact, and get some feedback on where they might be willing to have some of these service cutbacks. And you might in fact find some good ideas actually coming from the public on some of the specifics but you know the community survey is certainly something that you can always move out. As far as staff having then put together the other three bullet points, other programs that the council discussed. Elimination of the rental licensing program and position. I see that as you know a dollar amount that is only representative of a very small portion of that particular staff position, because the majority of that is then picked up by the rental licensing program. We are already short, and the reason we started talking about this program was code enforcement, and that staff currently doesn't have the time to be able to be going out and doing the level of code enforcement that we need in the community right now. I see that as an initiative that is in fact costing the community little for as much as the community will get back. In that that is just a small portion of that position and salary and you'll be taking some burden off of the 48 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 existing staff. I would encourage the finaace director to make your case again on your accounting position and the need. This was one circumstance where we were fortunate when we were looking for budget cuts was it 2 years ago, that you lost this position? The department sacrificed the position because it happened to be open at the time, and put it into our budget cuts and now that the department is at a level where it si~tmificantly needs this position back, to withhold it I think is penalizing a department that stepped up to the plate when it was needed previously, and now we're at a work load within that department that if I remember our previous conversation, we're still funding these activities that is being funded through the consultant, correct? Todd Gerhardt: Yep, fees for service. Mayor Jansen: It's in fees for service and this would just he shifting it back into a city position. Todd Gerhardt: A portion of it. Brace DeJong: Yeah. I dramatically cut back my consultant line item this year in anticipation of having some additional help. Quite honestly I think our auditors are uncomfortable because of the level of assistance that they've been providing. They feel like they're auditing their own work in some cases, which you know post Eaton is not a good position to he in. Very uncomfortable for the auditors and I think that there's some significant service enhancements that we could provide for our departments if we were able to do additional analysis.- Mayor Jansen: Okay. The $30,500 that you've listed here, is that the difference between what this position would he and what you will now need to put back into the consulting line or the fees for service? You just said you took it out of the fees for service. Bruce DeJong: I cut, and I don't remember the exact dollar figure but I cut approximately $25,000 out of my consulting. This is a half year position so on a full year basis it's going to he slightly over $60,000. But there's I guess additional service levels that I'd like to he able to provide. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Bruce DeJong: You know what we're getting you now is patchwork at the end of the year to help us close some things up that we're not able to get accomplished ourselves. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Understood. Alright. Those are my comments, and again I appreciate all the effort that you put into pulling this list together for us, and I'm not meaning to shoot down your efforts to have looked for cuts to be able to propose, but some of these, you know the next council or this evening, someone will have to decide if that is the correct areas for us to be taking some of these cuts. Just to maybe further, why don't we go. Let me check. Does council have questions on the new information that you would like to ask of staff at this time? Councilman Ayotte: The only question I have is on your next effect. You didn't talk about bond rating at all. Do you have a sense of what thi~ is going to do for us? Brace DeJong: As far as changes to our bond rating? Councilman Ayotte: Improvements. Stabilizing it. 49 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Bruce DeJong: As far as changes to our bond rating? Councilman Ayotte: Improvements, stabilizing it. What would happen if we didn't do what you're proposing? Would bond rating be affected if we didn't do what you're proposing? Would bond rating remain the same or go up? It can't go up much, if we do what you're proposing. Bruce DeJong: I think that our bond rating would probably go back down if we were unable to present a plan for dealing with those TIF deficits. Councilman Ayotte: So there's risk to it and that risk in a bond rating going down could be equated to a value of money, right? Bruce DeJong: Correct. Councilman Ayotte: What would be that value of money if our bond rating goes down? Bruce DeJong: That value would probably be someplace in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 basis points on any bond issue that you go out with thereafter. Mayor Jansen: Which would be on your new debt levy dollars that you have listed on your schedule, correct? Bruce DeJong: Correct. Mayor Jansen: That's all your questions? Okay. Any additional questions for stuff7 Councilman Peterson: The only one that I had Bruce was on TIF one when we talk about the 600,000. Tonight was the first night that I heard you kind of waffle a little bit. How much waffling is there? Could it be 700? Could it be 500? Could it be 900? Or could it be 6017 I mean I just want to get a sense of, waffling is my technical term. Todd Gerhardt: On new TIF revenue? Is not the deficit, the new TIF revenue coming on? Mayor Jansen: The TIF revenue. Todd Gerhardt: You know we just don't know what the impact of fiscal disparities is going to be on it. We did use 40% as our best guess but it could be 500,000. It could be 600,000. We don't know. Councilman Peterson: But it could be 7 too. Todd Gerhardt: It could be 7, and then we can adjust at that time. Councilman Peterson: I just want to get a sense of how confident you guys are, and I'm not hearing a lot of confidence either high or low so it' s, you know 600 is a best guesstimate. Todd Gerhardt: That's our story and we're sticking to it. Bruce DeJong: Plus or minus 20 percent. 50 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Additional questions Councilman Peterson? Okay. Any other questions for staff? Councilman Boyle: I have one Brace. On the salaries and benefits, the 204,000. Is that 204,000 over and above what it was this year? Bruce DeJong: Yes. Councilman Boyle: Okay. On street lights, feasibility study. What, ballpark, what would a feasibility study cost to justify turning... Bruce DeJong: I think I'll defer to our Public Works Director. Teresa Burgess: To do a feasibility study is going to be a combination of most likely, is mostly going to be staff time. We probably will have to have a little bit of advisement from consultants, so we're looking at probably in the range of $1,000 above and beyond salaries that we're already paying. Most of it will be legwork with city staff. Todd Gerhardt: Well hoping to use Xcel Energy too to assist in that. They're the ones we contract to maintain our lights and they have an energy audit individual over there so hope to work with them in developing a plan. Teresa Burgess: And that would be a consultant fee. Councilman Boyle: Have you ever heard of any city doing something like this to reduce their budget by? Teresa Burgess: Actually several cities 'are right now, and when it says cuts you need to keep in mind, that doesn't necessarily mean shutting off the lights. That could be trying to find alternative revenue sources. That's why we need to do a feasibility study. Savage has recently announced that they are going to start charging a fee for residential street lights. Now in our case our residential street lights are paid for 100 percent by the residents, but that is an oppommity for us to approach these commercial users and let them know that this is a place that we need to look for an alternative form of revenue. We will also look at if it's something that should be' outside of that commercial district. If this is something that's providing benefit to the entire city, we need to evaluate that in that feasibility study and say yes or no, it does or does not. Councilman Boyle: Well my comment again on the street lights, if it's any way, shape or form jeopardizes safety in any way, then obviously I would not recommend it. That's all the questions I have. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Labatt: Just a couple comments. Not to belabor my points from last week, the last meeting but. Mayor Jansen: Oh, go ahead. Councilman Labatt: Okay. So they're proposing 262,000 in cuts. Okay. And you take that and you divide it out by 8,000, is that right Todd? 8,000 taxable units, and that comes out to 32.75 a 51 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 year. Or $2.17 a month. Or about 9 cents a day. So street lights, and the $100,000 is going to save each one of us $12.50 a year, or a $1.04 a month, or about 3 cents a day. And the survey, which we value our residential input from our residents, at least for the last 4 years I valued and used a lot in my decisions, $20,000 savings. That comes out to $2.50 a year for each one of us. 20 cents a month, and I'm not going to break it down into the days. Councilman Ayotte: Thank you. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Councilman Boyle: I think we got your point. Councilman Labatt: Well I'm not done. The other program costs potential. Eliminating the license program position, rental license. $12,000. $1.50 a year, 12 cents a month. You can break it down to days for how much. Eliminate Bruce's finance position. $30,500. That's $3.81 a year, or 31 cents a month. As I said earlier, 2 weeks ago, or last week on the 2~, there's not a lot of fat in this budget. $202,000 in budget cuts, we're eliminating some valuable things that we need to the city for pennies. For savings so, I'll just leave it at that. Mayor Jansen: Okay. When Steve referred to the community survey, I of course have referred to this frequently as far as what our taxpayers had said to us specifically in the survey as we were asking them numerous tax questions, and one of the questions, the answer came back, and I'm just going to read right from the survey results that were presented to us. By almost 2 to 1, 58% to 30%, residents opposed, opposed a reduction in city services if their property taxes could be reduced. Not surprisingly when asked about the perception of city property taxes, 87% saw them as high, while only 10% felt they were above average. The 59% who labeled their property taxes as very high proved to be the highest level in the metropolitan area. It comes back to the perception and potentially the communication that's needed out to the public as to what percent of taxes are actually city taxes, and we saw during the elections that if it's not properly communicated and properly broken down by jurisdiction, there is a very strong reaction from our community to say that our taxes need to be reduced. Again, reading from the survey, the typical Chanhassen resident estimated that 20.5% of their property taxes went to the City of Chanhassen. This estimate proves to be very accurate. However, 38% placed the percentage as higher, while 26% had no idea of the correct share. What I think we have in our community is a lack of information, and I'm going to put that burden back on the city and the council as to communicating to our residents what is encompassed in the city portion of the property taxes, and I've seen a couple of documents that were drafted and sent out in other communities that very clearly define the city portion of our property taxes compared to the county, compared to the school district. Yes, our tax is high. They will continue to be extremely high with us sitting in the county that is the number one highest county taxes in the metropolitan area. When you look at that number and it's by far more significant as a percentage of the total, it will keep our rank extremely high. District 112 is the school district that's used to rank Chanhassen as a community. It's the fifth highest taxed school district in the State. We're 31't as a city. We've dropped in comparison to other communities in the 109 that are included in the particular study that is frequently quoted as far as a comparison of cities and our taxes. So we have managed to come down in that ranking. We're going the right direction, and unfortunately the highest portion, or a very high portion of our taxes is actually encompassed in the debt service and that's where we' ye had the most significant increases in our levy over the last several years. I'm looking at the proposal that, or projection that staff has given us and I'm looking out into new debt levy 2008 where it doubles, and again the community won't be looking at service increases over this period 52 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 of time. All you're really projecting to us is maintaining the status quo and one of the things that we have consistently heard on this council is a community that wants more servia, not less services. At the last hearing, the Truth in Taxation hearing ironically the one gentleman who spoke and started out by saying he has to take his children to the Chaska Community Center. Well, there is a sense in this community that we should have those services provided within our boundaries, and as I look at it, the challenge to thia council is how to provide those services either as cost effectively as possible, or through the private sector, which is where we then went with our whole community center conversation. I see that challenge becoming more si~ificant than over the next, what is this...and if that's the case, there is going to be a need, a significant need for council to communicate to the community exactly what's happening. With the debt. With the TIF deficit. It's all a very complicated situation, but you've got a community that does not want their services cut. They want their taxes to come down, and if they don't understand that what you're having to address over the next couple years is a situation that is going to keep their services restricted, you're again going to suffer some backlash from the public. You can't cut taxes when at the same time you've got such a significant deficit facing you with your TIP situation and it's not a situation that anyone caused. It's a result of tax compression within the districts and all of that needs to be communicated. So we're looking at a very complicated situation. I appreciate the fact that again staff has stepped forward with some of these cuts. I'm myself looking to approve the staff recommendation. We over the last 4 years have gotten excellent guidance from staff, from Bruce DeJong, from Todd Gerhardt, from our financial advisors. It's very sound decisions and proposals that you bring forward to us. I appreciate the effort that you put into helping us understand the long term impacts of the decisions that we make today. And it's funny to be-sitting in a situation an&Councilman Boyle's in the same situation that I'm in right now. The easiest decision that we could make thia evening would be to go out cutting the budget and ~:utting taxes. But it would be so inconsistent with what we have tried to accomplish for the long term best interest of the community that we live in, that we're going to feel those impacts ourselves. It would be totally inconsistent for us to go out doing what might make us feel good, and yes make the taxpayers feel good in the short term, but it's certainly not in the long term best interest of the community, and I quite frankly can't take an action that's totally inconsistent with the best advice that we're getting from our financial experts and has obviously helped us to try to address a problem that we basically could have said, hey. It's not our problem, you know and pass it along and let somebody else deal with it. Fortunately staff can't ha(,e that attitude because you're planning on being here long term, and hopefully council also isn't willing to pass along a more difficult situation to the next council. I think that's part of being responsible about the positions that we're in, is making sure that we're passing on the healthiest situation that we can. There is still a great deal of study and information that needs to be garnered through the key financial strategies process. I think that's a process that needs to continue expeditiously as you're looking at doing some of these cuts and working with staff to understand what the different service levels are that you can impact to come up with some of the cost savings. It's a great deal of work, but I think as you dig into the devil in the details, you'll actually maybe be able to find some of those efficiencies if you cut the standard, and again you'n~ talking about a policy that's cutting the standard of service to the community, but that's the direction that needs to come from council. And there needs to be that understanding as you're cutting the budget of exactly what it is, service wise, that you're cutting. One of the proposals that had gotten kicked around at the last council was cutting two park maintenance employees, and I think in the newspaper, and I had one of our residents e-mail me. There was some confusion. We're not talking about adding two new park positions. The discussion is cutting two existing positions, or at least that was what was on the table at the last discussion. Again, I don't think that's the right way for council to go about a policy decision. The policy decision should be what servi~ are you going to give up, and then you find out the results of what that impact is. If it's on the level 53 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 of employees, and what in fact the services are within the community and that impact on our residents. All of those things need to be taken into consideration and I'd just encourage that you put more time into those types of studies and really get down into those details and decide the service levels and communicate it to the public. They need to be aware of what you're cutting, or what revenue generation you're going to put into place and those impacts on them, so communicate and get that feedback from the public as you're implementing those things. So I've carried on at length. I'll be quiet. Whoever else wants to make your comments regarding the budget and direction for this evening. Councilman Peterson: One thing I haven't heard from anybody is, if you're, and Steve I don't think you're, I think you already went on record by saying no cut but for those people that are talking about cuts, are you in agreement with leaving the levy at the 12.8% increase or are you saying reduce it by the appropriate amount with the cuts? I'm curious as to what you all think about that. Councilman Ayotte: Here's where I'm coming from. First off, a couple comments. One, I want to be 6 foot 5, blond and blue eyed, okay. It's not going to happen. What I've been heating from residents is I've had to tighten my belt. City, you tighten your belt too. That's what I've heard. Okay? Staff has done a commendable job in making the attempts to generate revenue and reduce expense. Finance and city management has said, if we take what you want us to do with respect to cutting costs and buy down debt, our bond rating stabilizes. If we don't buy down debt, our bond rating has an adverse affect. What Ayotte is saying is, don't hurt public safety because the safety of our residents is key. What Ayotte said was, we've already caused problems to public works. Let's not commit the sins of the past again. Don't muck with public works. Muck with parks and rec. Parks and rec has made an attempt to reduce cost. Let me put a caveat on it. Don't do anything stupid. So if we go ahead and reduce the cost, and then we have senior citizens not using our senior center, that's stupid. However, we're making the step in the right direction in looking at how to reduce cost. So the target bogey, what I was shooting for was 120 plus K for parks and rec, around that. We're looking at a total cost reduction of 300K, so I'm agreeing with staff in terms of taking that reduction and buying down debt and keeping the tax where it is because what will happen eventually is we'll defer cost down the road. I think that's a positive thing. But I'm going to restate public safety, leave it alone. Public works, leave it alone. Address parks and rec. Generate revenue and reduce the service if need be, but don't, but I'll put the caveat on this time that I didn't put on before,, don't do anything stupid, and I'm not being a wise guy when I say that. Because that's the one place .... services is what we can address. We don't want to hurt the infrastructure. We don't want to hurt public safety. It's not hard. Okay? Let's step out and do it. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Councilman Boyle: Are you, excuse me. I must have missed it. Are you recommending staying with the current levy? The recommended levy. Councilman Ayotte: I'm saying I have no problem staying with the recommended levy with the understanding that we go after reduction, and I want to see reduction so that we can buy down debt. That's a smarter way of doing it because our bond rating goes up or stabilizes. What Bruce told me, and I believe him because he wears a tie. He said that, if we don't take care of the debt, bond rating will hurt so our taxes will be in worst shape the year after next. And the year after that. So I'm trusting him because he wears a tie, so you'd better be right'on that. Okay, so that's the point I'm making there so. 54 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay. Appreciate that. And then the other portion of what staff has shared, as well as needing to apply that to the deficit, is that question mark as to the city having to deal with a state reduction in revenue next year which could be, and we don't know how much it will be, but it could be another 300,000. Correct? Todd Gerhardt: Oh, yeah. We calculated $168,000. We received in first payment for market value hornes~ credit in October. Our next payment is in December, which should be a similar amount. And everything I'm hearing on the streets is that's going to be the first thing hit because that's the suburban communities. They get most of that and they're growing and they have money and I just don't know where it is. Councilman Boyle: So the impact of that Todd means that you would have to go back to each division and say, we've got to make up 300 and some thousand dollars. Cut your budgets by another what, 3%? Todd Gerhardt: 3.4. Mayor Jansen: And the department heads have already been told to be prepared to do that. As far as making those cuts. I mean it's pretty much being assumed that that is in fact going to happen. So, and that's without there being a projection in there and not to be all gloom and doom, but if the economy does slow down, within our budget we have a million plus in revenue that we're counting on coming in from building permits and if construction slows down, building permit revenue decreases, and that too could then be an issue as far as needing to make further budget reductions or come up with more revenue as far .as either using your reserves or some other fund. Anyway, so much for gloom and doom. Other comments. Councilman Peterson: I have taken a little different ploy that I talked about I think one of the last work sessions. I'm, I've looked at staff's potential reductions and I agree with all of them. And I am probably taking a different tact in that I've added another almost 200,000 Of additional cuts to accomplish two things. Number one, I'd like to get the levy into single digit increase. And allow to pay down some of the debt and use some of that, the delta between what Our costs are, the budget, and what the levy is. I'd like to apply some of that to general fund to the debt service. So I'm saying take the reductions now. We know with almost certainty that we're going to lose that 300,000 in sometime next year, so let's start doing it now. So I think we need to take those and do that January 1, and I've got a hst of items that if we can incrementally add to reduce those costs that I've already spoke of. I'm at a reduction of closer to 500,000 and I'd like to lower the levy increase down into the single digits, which again I haven't heard a consensus on that tonight so, but that's. It's following my same philosophy. I'm not as aggressive as I have been in the past because I have felt that growth would help us cover some incremental costs, as it has. I'm not as optimistic because the economy now isn't going to carry us, and now I'm looking at costs more than I have in the past so. That's my two cents worth at 10:30. Mayor Jansen: So you would cut that out now, and shift the 500,000 in burden of what would have been used towards paying down the deficit, into these future years. Councilman Peterson: Yes. Yes. So I'm just taking deeper cuts now. Lowering the levy to single digits and still using that incremental dollar savings to pay down debt. I'm just more aggressive. On the number of cuts fight now. 55 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: I realize that, but what I'm looking for is then where that is made up in the long term and for helping the equation that staff has given us as to what will happen with the future tax levies. You know conceivably then it could push the next levy up into double digits. Councilman Peterson: Depending upon, and if you cut 500,000, that still gives you a $400,000 increase which I think is around, I'm looking at Bruce but I think that's around a 5 or 6 percent levy increase yet, and I'm potentially willing to go higher than that and use that delta to still pay down the debt so it won't be that significantly different. I'm cutting more, lowering the levy a little bit but there's still a positive cash flow to pay down debt service so, I haven't got the, I -haven't run the numbers because a lot of, some of these are new tonight. I haven't seen them so. Mayor Jansen: So of the 500 that you just threw out. Councilman Peterson: Some of that would be applied towards the debt service. Not again. Mayor Jansen: What would that be? What would you leave in the levy? So you're not reducing the levy by 500,000? Councilman Peterson: No, I'm thinking the levy needs to be a single digit, maybe as low as, as high as 9. 9 ½. So you've got about a 3 percent difference there that could still be applied towards debt service. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other comments council7 . Councilman Boyle: Bruce, last week when we, you gave us a chart that showed for example a $200,000 house, the value of a $200,000 home. The assessed value. The increase in taxes if the full levy was approved was something like $70 a year? Or something. Bruce De, long: The dollar increase on a $200,000 house, a house that was valued at $200,000 in 2002, with an 8 ½% increase up to $217,000 for 2003 taxes would be approximately $99 per year. Councilman Boyle: Per year. Okay. Bruce DeJong: That's the increase. Approximately. Councilman Boyle: Approximately. So, when we start taking a little bit here and little bit there, I mean 20,000 there, totals up to 200,000 that's literally coming off the levy. I mean we're. Councilman Labatt: Gary, it's 9 cents a day. Councilman Peterson: Well, but to that point though guys, let's say you round it to 300. Go 300,000 and Steve articulately brought that number down to a per cost, but to the city over 3 years, that's 900,000. 300,000 is serious money. 900,000 is half of our debt problem in 2004. So the nickels and dimes do add up fast when you start taking these cuts and applying them over a 3 year period. So they're big. Councilman Boyle: But they'd probably, it probably wouldn't apply over a 3 year period. 56 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Councilman Peterson: Yeah it would. That's the pre~n~ that they're making tOnight is that they're intending to do that. Councilman Boyle: You pull some of these things out now and they'd be back. I mean it's not long term. It can't be long term~ I mean park and mc, service level cuts when we have more trails. We have more lawn to mow. I mean that's a one time at besC I mean next year it'd have to go higher. And I picked a bad example because I kind of get Bob. Councilman Peterson: Yeah, you're talking to two guys that disagree with you on that one together but. Mayor Jansen: But again, what staff is asking you to do is make those spending cuts, but apply them to the debt and what Councilman Peterson is suggesting is that we do something of a cut now. Leave the levy at a 9 ½% instead of a 12%, and apply again those spending cuts to the debt. So I'm hearing everyone conceptually saying the same thing. However, it's the amount. Councilman Boyle: It's just the amount. The percent. Mayor Jansen: Right. Councilman Peterson: Yeah but the other thing Linda that I want to just clarify, when you talked about the survey. 59% of the people, I can't quote it exactly but you're talking about didn't want services cut if taxes had to be cut. Just remember, we're not talking about lowering people's taxes tonight. We're talking about lowering the increase in their taxes which directly conflicts with what that survey question said. We're not talking, the question wasn't lowering their increase, or lessening their increase. It was lessening your taxes, and we're not doing that tonight. We're increasing your taxes by'X amount so the survey question's irrelevant. Councilman Labatt: You're lessening their increase. Councilman Peterson: Yeah, but so the question's. Councilman Labatt: I don't follow your point there.Craig. You know. Mayor Jansen: Well, and basically what you're talking about are reducing services in order to achieve a lower tax increase. Councilman Peterson: Which is very different than lowering taxes. Mayor Jansen: Correct. However, they have said they don't want to see their services reduced. They also don't understand necessarily, and again that's where I think you need to communicate it, is our deficit situation. They're now hearing the State having a deficit, and a tremendous deficit. The city has a deficit that we are also trying to deal with at the same time our revenues are being decreased in order to help the State with their deficit. So we're doing a tremendous amount of juggling with what we have available. I am hearing everyone on this council saying cut spending. However, what I'm hearing is cut spending in order to reduce the amount of tax increase that our community is going to feel if we don't do it and apply it to the detick and to our debt situation. So they're still not, they're going to have a reduction in services and the taxes are 57 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 going to stay at the level that they are, or go up slightly. So it's a big communication issue for the city. Councilman Peterson: It's coming at the right time though because our governor elect got elected because he said he wasn't going to raise taxes, and the voters supported that and they knew what that means. Councilman Labatt: He's going to increase your fees for services and everything else though which is just another tax. He's going to increase your fees for going to the parks, for buying a deer license, it's still a tax. It still hits the same pocket book every year. It's the same thing we've done here. Councilman Ayotte: The only part that's different right now is that we're making money if we attack the debt, through stabilizing the bond rating. We're making money if we attack the debt. So that's the one thing that we redly have to do is attack the debt. And I'm a little queasy about the operational expense reductions that you guys are forecasting because I think it's a little Mickey Rooney approach to what you're doing. Just to go in the back yard and have a play, but at least you're making the attempt and that's good, but we have to, we have to reduce the debt. We have to attack the debt. That's consistent. Mayor Jansen: And by saying debt you're dso in that lump referring to the whole TIF deficit because. Councilman Ayotte: Correct, the deficit issue. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Okay. Alright. Council, are we at all close to someone being able to make a motion please. Councilman Peterson: Motion to adjourn. Councilman Labatt: I would move that we adopt the resolution provided to us in the staff packet establishing the tax levies for 2002, collectible in 2003 with the addition of the, of putting back the $262,000 in cuts. Putting it back under the general fund. Do we want to do the capital plan or are we going to take that separately2 Councilman Ayotte: No, one at a time. Mayor Jansen: One at a time. Councilman Labatt: Okay, so I will, even though this one resolution contains both. Todd Gerhardt: The 262 Steve, what were you7 Councilman Labatt: This one here. Todd Gerhardt: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: I didn't follow that 260. Give me. Mayor Jansen: The resolution doesn't include that cut, does it? Mr. Gerhardt? 58 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Councilman Labatt: This resolution here includes. Todd Gerhardt: Bruce your resolution, does it include the 262 plus the 40,000 in additional revenues? Brace DeJong: Yes. Yes, I'm sorry. I raised the revenue by the $40,01X1 that was proposed, and I specified that it would be expenditures and uansfer amounts so if you did not cut those expenditures, it would simply lower the level of transfer. Councilman Ayotte: Let me try an amendn~nt, friendly amendment. May I2 Can we simply say to follow staff' s recommendations and that the $300,000 in operational expense reduction will go to service the debt? Would that be a more simple way of presenting it? Councilman Peterson: Didn't Steve, didn't you just take it out? Councilman Labatt: No. Councilman Boyle: Put it in general fund. Councilman Peterson: So you're saying take the reductions? I misunderstood what you said. Councilman Labatt: No. No. The 262, the street lights, park and rec, community survey, street employee, put that back in. - Councilman Peterson: You just rejected your friendly amendment I think. Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, I misunderstood you, no. No, I want to see $300,000 in operational expense, I want to see it go down. I want to see it service the debt and I want to make sure there's a sanity check so that we're not doing anything stupid. Mayor Jansen: Okay, and just so you understand what you'~ communicating is the same thing that Steve is communicating. He's putting it, and let me make sure I've got this right. You're putting it back into the levy, correct? Councilman Labatt: Yep. Mayor Jansen: So you're wanting it levied for because you want it to apply to the deficit. Councilman Ayotte: Okay, I understand. Mayor Jansen: So the two of you can have at it as to what that cut actually encompasses come January. Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, but it should be 300K, not 262. Councilman Labatt: Well I'm just using the number. From here. Todd Gerhardt: The 262 does not include the $40,000 in new revenue from park and rec. Brace highlighted that on a separate sheet. In my report it talks about 30Z 59 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: I still want a friendly amendment to it then. Mayor Jansen: What I'm hearing we're trying to accomplish is a resolution that is attached is Steve is wanting to approve staff's recommendation that we pass the levy as you have proposed it. Correct? Todd Gerhardt: Yeah. Our, the resolution includes the $262,000 worth of cuts plus the $40,000 in additional revenue. Steve's recommendation is to increase that resolution by $262,000 and not include the $40,000 in additional revenue. Councilman Labatt: No, you can. No, I just mainly what I'm mainly worried about the street lights. My god. For 3 cents a day we're going to blacken the city? Mayor Jansen: Okay. And am I incorrect in having heard staff say that what your recommendation was is that we pass the levy amount as you had proposed it and that the $262,000 or 300 would then be subtracted after we've passed the levy. Isn't that what staff recommendation was? Brace DeJong: Mayor Jansen, maybe I can clear this up a little bit. In the resolution it talks about general fund revenues of $8,908,635 and expenditures and transfers of $8,907,935. What 1 think Councilor Labatt is proposing is that rather than having a $302,000 transfer, which is Mr. Gerhardt's recommendation, that that transfer would be $40,000 in the budget, and that the expenditures would be increased by $262,000 and that.the transfer be reduced by $262,000. Councilman Labatt: Right. Councilman Ayotte: No. Mayor Jansen: So in essence what you just said would eliminate the cuts from being made to the levy amount and apply it to the deficit afterwards, correct? Brace DeJong: It would mean there would be $262,000 less applied towards our deficits. Mayor Jansen: Oh, okay. Todd Gerhardt: And that's 262,000 over the next 6 years. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Okay. Councilman Ayotte: Can we have more discussion Mayor? Mayor Jansen: Yep we are. Steve, when you're eliminating the cuts, are you eliminating them because you don't like the list of cuts but conceptually would you be comfortable saying to staff, we're going to take, somehow take $302,000 out of the, through revenues or expend, why don't I just be specific. You're going to take $262,000 in spending cuts in the next budget, coming up with it some place but you're not comfortable with this list. Councilman Labatt: Correct. Mayor Jansen: Which is what I'm hearing Bob say. You want $300,000. 60 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: 302. Mayor Jansen: And you don't care if it comes from revenue generation or spending cuts. Councilman Ayotte: As long as it doesn't have an adverse affect on public safety and public works. Mayor Jansen: Gotch ya. Councilman Labatt: Correct. Street lights I consider public safety. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So in essence we're leaving the levy at the amount that staff has requested, but we're not being specific as to what the $300,000 is in spending cuts that they're looking for, but it will be applied to the deficit. So then does that make the resolution accurate? Bruce DeJong: Yes. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Labatt: So moved. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So we're approving, your motion is to approve the resolution as stated by staff. Councilman Labatt: As presented, right. Yep. Mayor Jansen: As presented by staff. And that accomplishes what you're trying to accomplish also. Did we clear that up? Councilman Ayotte: I still want it on the record that public safety and public works be kept high on the effort and that we target those service areas and generate revenue where it's plausible, and I don't think I can put it in the record to say don't make it stupid but. Councilman Peterson: You just did. Mayor Jansen: You will work with the 2003 council to do exactly that. Okay, so if I could have a second please. Councilman Boyle: Second. Mayor Jansen: All those in favor say aye. Councilman Peterson: Can we have some discussion first? Mayor Jansen: Sure. Councilman Peterson: What you just decided to do on this motion is to give it back to staff saying you find it. For the last 3 months staff has been coming to us and tell us to decide. I'm shocked now we're tossing it back to staff when they've been asking us to make a decision. 61 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: That's not what I just heard. I heard that council come January will sit down as a group. You have not agreed to the list that was forwarded from staff. You've got discrepancies on your council, and with your two new members you are going to come up with, as a council, direction to staff of where that $300,000 is going to come from. And it may encompass some additional study that needs to be done on some of the numbers. Councilman Ayotte: And I was very specific in saying parks and rec. And I was very specific in saying public safety has to be, public safety issues have to be watched so we don't do anything that could jeopardize the community. And I also said that public works has to be watched so we don't further degregate the infrastructure that we've already hurt by doing things incorrectly in the past, so no. I'm targeting a very specific area, and that's why I wanted to make that friendly amendment. So no, I think I was pretty specific. And when it comes January, you know if we have an opportunity to do more than 300K, I mean you know. Councilman Peterson: Well I just think that we've spent months on this and now we're coming down to the last minute and we're saying we can't make a decision, let's let the next council do it. Councilman Ayotte: No. Mayor Jansen: I'm not hearing that at all. What I am hearing is. Councilman Peterson: Well it's interesting I am so. Mayor Jansen: Well, and I gi~ess it doesn't surprise me that we're hearing different things again. Your council has items in front of it that no, you have not agreed totally to this. You've got studies to do. Councilman Peterson: I've raised my point. You've got a motion and a second. My discussion is over. If you want to continue it's fine, but... Mayor Jansen: Just so we're clear. Council is not asking staff to come up with any additional information for consideration as far as cuts. You've given council your proposal and after the first of the year council will have to decide, from what I'm hearing, what the reductions are going to be in spending and you're looking for $300,000 specifically from this meeting, and you may be looking for more. Once you get down to it. So 'I have a motion and a second. Any more discussion? Resolution ~2002-103: Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council adopt the resolution establishing tax levies for 2002, collectible in 2003 as presented by staff. All voted in favor, 'except Councilman Peterson who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. ADOPTION OF THE CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PLAN. Mayor Jansen: The second part of this agenda item is the capital improvement program adoption. Staff report please. Bruce DeJong: Mayor Jansen, council members. I do not have an elaborate staff report. It's just a continuation of the items that we've been discussing, but I did make it explicitly clear here in changing the description of what the proposed funding sources are, as to staff recommendation. 62 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 That we recommend that you do bond for your capital items coming out here in the next 5 years for the major equipment and that you also bond for the pavement management program, except where the MSA funds are allocated specifically to a project. That leaves us with a grand total of expenditures out of our capital i .mFa'ovement plan projected over the next 5 years of $34,952,800. And I would recommend approval of this. This does not mean that necessarily all of these projects will be undertaken during the course of the year, but each one of these will be apgroved by thc city manager and any of those items that are over $50,000 will come back to the council specifically for approval under bid, unless it's something we can purchase below that dollar amount off an existing state contract or cooperative agreement. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And again further, just so we're clear, our main focus was really an evaluation of the year 2003. Anything beyond that is basically considered to be up for discussion with each year's conversation around the capital plan. Bruce DeJong: That's certainly correct. There are some things in here that I guess are best described as speculative in nature. In a community that's growing the way our's is, it's difficult to make those 5 year projections as to frankly when something might happen. -Some of these items are included merely for notification purposes that at some point in the furore we'll probably have to address them. I think most notably, the fire station and equipment that we've included for Fire Station 3 in the southern portion of the city. That's listed at a grand total of about 4 ½ million dollars in 2007, but that's simply to put it on the radar. It's not that that is set in stone. Certainly you'd have to have extensive community discussions and on a project like that, you would have to have a bond referendum in order to fund something of that magnitude. So there are other items in here that are cerainly more speculative and the only thing that you can really commit yourself to as a council is something for the next year. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. And then the other point is that there axe, and I appreciated the way that you detailed the funding sources for the projects and that you did get very specific about where those are coming from as far as, as a for instance the park dedication fund. So there are other soum~ in here other than what we would be directly bonding for as far as some of these projects. Bringing this back to council, are there any questions for staff on the capital improvement program? Okay. I only want to make one mention, and this came out of our work session conversation and it has to do with the completion of the City Center Commnns park. That park is noted for fimding primarily out of the park dedication fund at this point. And part of our work session conversation hinged around, even though the funds are there, is it appropriate in a year where we're trying to cut back and project to the community that we're cutting back, that we would use funds for a significant project like that. A si~ificant dollar amount that we would be putting a project together around that. Again I want to emphasize that the park dedication funds are currently in our reserves. I mean we have the cash on hand. It is dedicated to park projects. The library is such a significant gathering area, and again our residents approved a 6 million dollar referendum to get that passed, and as part of that project we have been in these extensive conversations about putting the City Center Commons park into place at the same time that this library is becoming such a significant destination for our residents, so I would hate to see that project be delayed simply because of perception. The funds are there. The project's in place. One of the very clear requests that we've gotten from the community is for a central gathering area in the downtown. A place where people can come and linger and relax and have a sense of community, and that's what that project was and is intended to accomplish in our downtown to bring more vital activity into the downtown for our residents. So right now it is slated in our plans for 2003, and I certainly would hope that that project would continue as scheduled and as planned to complete that comer with the library, but that's just my two cents. That's one issue 63 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 that did come up in our conversations. So with that if I could have a motion for the capital improvement program please. And perhaps what we're doing is completing the resolution. Councilman Labatt: Yep, I would move that we approve the resolution adopting the 2003-2004 capital improvement program as presented by staff. Mayor Jansen: Is that complete enough a motion? Are we set? Okay. If I could have a second please. Councilman Boyle: Second. Resolution g2002-104: Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council adopt the 2003-2007 Capital Improvement Program as preserited by staff. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: Great, thank you. Staff for the tremendous amount of time and effort that you put in over the last, what has it been, 4 months. 5 months. Probably even longer for all of you, pulling together the numbers for council. Walking through all of these different scenarios. Again, helping us to better understand the future impact of our deficit situation. Helping us get our arms around that and do some planning and to you and your staff for helping pull together these spending cuts and appreciate all the effort you'll still have to go to to try to get this worked out as you get into the year, but we appreciate your commitment and the effort that you've put forward in coming up with the numbers that you've provided with us, so thank you. DISCUSSION OF PUBLIC SAFETY Mayor Jansen: Council, next agenda item is discussion of public safety issues. Is that something you want to cover still this evening? Councilman Ayotte: Can I throw a thought out? Mayor Jansen: Sure. Councilman Ayotte: With the transition meeting that we discussed with Mayor-elect Furlong and Councilman-elect Lundquist, maybe what we ought to do is move that item to be a part of the transition discussion so that we can bridge information that we have come to with the new council so that it would be something we could bring fresh to the January-February meeting. Mayor Jansen: Okay, and make it a part of the whole strategic planning conversation. Councilman Ayotte: Correct. Mayor Jansen: If you might add that to that agenda, it would be appreciated. Thank you for making that suggestion. Council are you okay with that proposal? Councilman Boyle: Oh, by all means. Mayor Jansen: Okay, so with that do we need to table this this evening or just move along? Roger Knutson: It'd be a good idea to table it. 64 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay council, if I could have a motion to table please. Councilman Ayotte: Motion to table. Councilman Peterson: Second. Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to table the discussion on public safety issues. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. CONSENT AGENDA: E. APPROVAL OF RESOLUTION ~IAR(~IN(~ FOR VEHICLE LO(~KOUT CALLS. Councilman Labatt: Setting the fee structure for vehicle lockout servia. I just, I wanted it pulled for a quick discussion of, I believe this is a fee that our residents already pay for in their taxes and not in favor of taxing or having our residents pay a $20 fee to get their vehicle locked out. But I am in favor of taxing the non-resident, so two points I want to bring up is, either we look at charging non-residents only, or I'll just vote not. Councilman Ayotte: I like your thought but because of the state of my mind right now, would you mind if we tabled that one also? .- Councilman Labatt: I don't care'. Councilman Ayotte: I like the idea but I'd like to have further discussion but I don't want to talk about it tonight. Councilman Labatt: Okay. So I'll take your motion to table and I'll second it then. Councilman Peterson: I'm comfortable moving ahead with it as it is so. Mayor Jansen: I'm comfortable allowing, for there to be more conversation to get council in agreement on this. I don't think there's any hurry to get this taken care of, correct? . . Todd Gerhardt: No. It was just something that came up as a part of our budget discussion and you know, we're providing the service at no charge right now so. Mayor Jansen: Okay, so someone made the motion to table. Councilman Labatt: Bob did. Councilman Ayotte: Was that me? Okay. Mayor Jansen: And I've got a second. Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to table the resolution charglo'ng for vehicle lockout calls. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to O. 65 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 F. APPROVE ACCESS EASE1V[ENT AGREEMENT WITH SUNRISE I-TTLLS HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION FOR LII~ STATION No. 1 - PROJECT No. PW055A. Councilman Labatt: I pulled this to get some more information from Teresa. She's answered those questions and I'm ready to proceed. Let' s get out of here. Mayor Jansen: Okay, if I could have a motion for 1 (f) please. Councilman Ayotte: I was distracted with the Villager. Councilman Labatt: I'll move approval. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Boyle: Can't. I've got to abstain. Councilman Ayotte: Second. Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to approve the access easement agreement with Sunrise Hills Homeowners Association for Lift Station No. 1, Project No. PW055A as presented. All voted in favor, except Councilman Boyle who abstained, and the motion carried 4-0-1. COUNCIL PRESE~ATIONS. Mayor Jansen: Is there anything for council commission liaison updates on meetings? Councilman Peterson: Just a reminder that Thursday, December 12th at 1:00 is the Southwest Metro Transit station open house for the new ramp. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Councilman Ayotte: I was just wondering if any, I haven't heard of any re-scheduling of the water treatment, has that happened? Teresa Burgess: We are looking at the first Monday of February, and I'm working to make sure that that works with all of the plants that we are looking at visiting. Councilman Ayotte: That's it. Mayor Jansen: Okay. The only meeting update that I have is the Eastern Carver County leadership meeting that occtared on Friday, which of course is all of the District 112 and community leaders. At that meeting there was a conversation about a transitional meeting of community leaders to share the strategic plans of the different communities. Hence, getting all of the newly elected officials throughout the county up to date and familiar with the strategic plans of each of the communities, and that has not been done for about 3 or 4 years. We couldn't remember when the last meeting had been held where all of councils, all members of all councils and the county board were invited to attend this meeting where the cities presented each of their strategic plans, and it was very informative for myself as a council member to learn more about 66 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Chaska's strategic plan and initiatives. Victoria. The school district shared their goals and objectives, so the main conversation that occun~ on Friday was a discussion about r~.afing that particular meeting and inviting all of the councils and mayors to ~_~end so I know they're working on that strategy as well as doing an orientation for the new members that axe coming in. Both the boards and the councils. I think that was the main point from the meeting, was it not Todd? Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, and there was just one other thing is that they were going to ere. ate their own strategic plan. The Eastern Carver County leaders group was going to establish their own strategic plan of where they're going to go into the future and using information and some of the programs that they might develop into the future. Mayor Jansen: More with a look at the financial sharing between the communities. We had done a shared transportation communication. Some of those types of initiatives as far as conversation, so I think that was everyflfing from that meeting that was of importance so watch for that. So why don't we move on then under Administrative Presentations. ADMINISTRATIyE PRESENTATIONS: PAVEMENT MANAGEMENT PLAN, ENGINEERfP~LIC WORK~ DIRECTOR. Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor and council. You should have received in your packet a copy of the cost benefit analysis of pavement management. Rehabilitation versus reconstruction. We will be posting that on our web site for anyone in the public that's interested, but our anticipation is most people will not become interested until this affects theft street personally, ff the council has any questions I'd be happy to answer it. The gist of the study is that rehabilitation is cost effective in the long run of the life of the project. Looking at a 40 year life for this case, but a long term plan for the streets of our city. Rehabilitation 'includes the type of project we did in the Pheasant I-Fills neighborhood this year which included extensive maintenance, mill and overlay project, curb repair and dig out areas, versus full depth reconstruction which would be going down 3, 4 or even 8 feet down and building back up from that level to replace utilities, ff there's any questions I'd be happy to answer that, otherwise basically everything's in the report. Councilman Ayotte: Thank you. Mayor'Jansen: Any questions for staff?. Councilman Boyle: Nice job. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you Teresa Appreciate it. Okay, I thinl~ that's eve~j~,hing that is formally on our agenda. Earlier this evening, and I've now checked with Roger as to the proper protocol to share our information with the public on our evaluation of the city manager. And as I was instructed by the city attorney, we do need to get fairly ~c, not only in the review points that we covered, but also in the compensation discussion that we had so that thi~ evening we can make a motion for approval of the compensation package that we discussed, con~ Roger? Roger Knutson: That's correct Mayor. Under the open meeting law, after you've had a closed meeting to evaluate the manager's performance, you're required to then follow in a public meeting to announce the results of that evaluation and summarize those findings, whatever you have. And if you want to add on compensation, this is I believe your last meeting of the year. Regular meeting of the year. 67 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. So I will attempt to properly recap what we discussed as far as our evaluation points, and council once I've tried to reiterate some of what we talked about, if you'd like to jump in and add to the discussion, certainly please do. What we reviewed Mr. Gerhardt was your work plan, and the consensus from council, and it was extremely unanimous, is that you' ye done a very good j ob of delivering on all of the issues that we discussed throughout our strategic plan and put on your work plan, and it's an extensive list of projects, as you know, so it's pretty impressive that you have managed to deliver on such a daunting task but you have a council that very unanimously endorses the work that you've done and the job that you've... You got a very positive review from council so I'm going to list your accomplishments over the past year of projects that were within your work plan as far as accomplishments. The library project, as everyone has heard us refer to in the last 2 years has certainly been a significant project within your work plan as far as the execution of the joint powers agreement. You still have that to take care of, but the construction contract. The whole design phase. You have been 100 percent involved in every step of that project and it certainly has gone very smoothly and we've appreciated your efforts in making sure that that project has gotten accomplished successfully and your communication with all of the various parties involved. Next item on your work pl.an were the key financial strategies, which encompassed the whole budget process, debt service update, TIF deficit options, and you've had several of council mention that as one of your greatest accomplishments as far as everything that you and Bruce have done together as far as tackling our finances and coming forward with proposals and certainly your extensive background on TIF being a plus that we've all identified as something that you bring to the table and is certainly beneficial for all of us. You've noted the bowling center property. You've been very involved in numerous discussions there trying to bring forward a proper development proposal and though we have not accomplished that, I would commend you for having really followed the guidelines that council has placed on what they would like .to see happen on that site, so you haven't buckled trying to get something done quickly and compromised on the goals and objectives that were set by the council. You've definitely had the initiative to stick with-that and try to come up with the right project. You've noted the Presbyterian Homes project. I know that's still moving forward and it's not fault of your's that we approved that what, back in December 9, 2002.' Is that the right date? Todd Gerhardt: 2001. Mayor Jansen: Was it 17 Okay. So I mean it's been approved and it's been more on their plate as to getting that to move forward. You noted the West 79th Street property, getting that sold and those revenues coming into the city and working out the agreements with those companies. You've noted your work on the McGlynn litigation, the Highway 101 turnback and trail project. Certainly that also was noted by a couple of council as an initiative that was very hot politically. You helped us work through that with the community. There was, you know a lot of sensitivity and need for public communication. Your staff also was very helpful in that, and it was noted as an accomplishment for how you managed to help us through that situation and get that accomplished. Maintenance code, rental licensing ordinance. Certainly you've had a great deal to do with that, and over sight. You've got the water treatment facility. I'm just going to hit some of these. So I've called them off as to what your challenges were and basically consider them all having been handled extremely well. The review of the community center options. Review of sit down restaurant opportunities. City Center Commons development. You've been in discussions about establishing a local lodging tax. That of course is a conversation you're having still with the Chamber of Commerce and is ongoing. The review of the potential District 112 high school sites in Chan. The strategic planning process. Certainly you've been instrumental in helping us move forward our initiatives which were the housing, taxation, 68 City Council Meeting - Decem~r 9, 2002 economic development, and community center. You also have a long list of other items that you've taken on, so basically based upon all of these projects and how you've handled them, council feels that we certainly want to reward you with a compensation increase, which correct, advise me again Roger. How specific do I need to get this evening? We are giving Mr. Gerhardt a compensation increase to begin January of 2003. We are also awarding a merit in~ and we will be awarding a slight increase in the car allowance for Mr. Gerhardt based upon his evaluation results. Am I properly on the record? Councilman Ayotte: In US currency. Mayor Jansen: Or do I need to get more specific? Councilman Labatt: I thought it was Canadian. Mayor Jansen: I need to be more specific? Okay. What we are specifically, and it's not that I don't want to say these things publicly but when you come out of the private sector you figure you've got some privacy in these kinds of conversations so. Roger Knutson: No privacy up here. Mayor Jansen: No privacy up here whatsoever. What we are awarding specifically will be a 3.5% in~e to your base salary, and let me be~n by saying we have a review that was done of comparable communities and what we took were the key financial strategy cities as well as the Stanton Group comparison communities, and Mr. Gerhardt is in fact well below what is considered average and proper for a city manager in a community of our size in comparison to his constituents, so what we are trying to accomplish is bringing him back to what would be considered more of a fair and equitable level to comparable positions. So in doing that, what we are looking to do is a 3.5% increase to his base salary. Do I need to say approximately what those dollars would be? Roger Knutson: You don't have to. Mayor Jansen: Okay. 3.5% increase to his base salary. We are awarding for immediate payment in December a merit increase of 10%. And his ear allowance will increase by $100. Roger Knutson: And Mayor you should vote on those, approving that in public. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve. Councilman Labatt: Second. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Labatt seconded that the City Council approve the compensation package for the City Manager as follows: 3~% increase to his base salary, a merit increase of 10 % effective immediately in December, and $100 increase to his car allowance. AH voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: Mr. Gerhardt, I just want to thank you for what has been a tremendous experience being able to work with you as you came on board as our new city manager. We certainly were 69 City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 rolling up our sleeves and digging is as to what some of the challenges would be. You have risen to those challenges and tackled the tasks involved. You and your staff have formed a very positive team work environment. I would say the level of support that I've seen your staff bring behind you is, if anything encouraging to me as to what this city can accomplish under your leadership. Your staff is ready and willing to do whatever it is that you send them off to do as far as tasks. So what this council is challenging ourselves with and the incoming council, is to give you as quickly as possible direction on what our key goals and objectives are for the coming year and that's where our joint conversation ended up coming from was a discussion with the incoming council members to have a transitional meeting to talk about strategic planning so that you can have your goals at least initially set for you, and you can be off and running in January so that you can have some same kind of results as you've already produced for us so appreciate it and I know we're in very good hands. Todd Gerhardt: I'd just like to thank the council. I appreciate your support over the last year and a half and tonight with the budget process. I know it can be tedious and frustrating. I'd also like to thank my staff for all their support. I couldn't accomplish really anything on that list without their help so I appreciate it and I thank you. Mayor Jansen: Any additional comments council for Mr. Gerhardt. Councilman Peterson: Ditto. Mayor Jansen: Okay, very good. Thank you. I don't think there was anything else on the agenda. If council has anything else that you would like to add. Councilman Boyle: Well I would like to give my two cents worth. Linda gave her two cents worth 14 times so I hope she' s out of change by now. Councilman Peterson: Steve, what does that work out to.9 Councilman Labatt: Figure it out. I'm too tired. Councilman Boyle: Just real quickly I want to say thanks. It's been a great experience this last year and a half, and a great council. Being HRA and EDA a long time I saw a lot of different councils come through, and I got a little prejudice there but I think we got a lot more accomplished and probably the best council I' ye seen in a long time so it's very good. Thank you all very much. I've enjoyed working with you. Mayor Jansen: Well thank you. Okay, boy this will be my last call for a motion to adjourn. I'm going to make the motion to adjourn. Councilman Boyle: Make note of the time too. Mayor Jansen: If I could have a second please. Councilman Peterson: Second. Councilman Labatt: Well let Boyle second it man. Councilman Boyle: Okay man. I second. 7O City Council Meeting - December 9, 2002 Mayor Jansen moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to adjourn the meefln~ All voted in favor and the motion carried. The City Council meeting was adjourned at 11:15 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 71 CHANFIASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION RF~~ MEETING DECEMBER 10, 2002 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 6:30 p.m. ME~E~ PRF_,~ENT: Rod Franks, Amy O'Shea, Paula Atkim, Glenn Stolar, Tom Kelly, and Jack Spizale MEMBERS ABSENT: David Happe ~TAFF PRE~ENT; Todd Hoff:man, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent; Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent; Susan Marek, Rec Center Manager, and Kara Wickenhauser, Senior Center Coordinator. PI, IBLIC ANNOUNCEMEN'I~: None. VISITOR PRF~ENTATIQN~: None. MIN'IJ~IW~: None. TOBACCO FREE POLICY FOR OUTDOOR ~G$- Ruegemer: Many of the cities and school districts around 'the state have taken a look at developing such a policy, tobacco free policies. We receive requests periodically throughout the course of the year on addressing these types of issues within our park system, and I guess internally we've been discussing this policy or .developing a policy for quite some time now. Now seems to be the time since we are in the health business so to speak, it's time that we kind of take a look at taking measures on I guess providing environments for our chil .dren and our park users. We did, I did include some other policies from other cities to kind of give some knowledge or some bac~und information for the commissioners tonight to take a look at those and kind of formulate and maybe have an ala carte, kind of a system for us to take a look at in developing thi~ type of policy. What I'm really primarily concerned on is athletic areas and our skate park mainly. Beaches, a lot of those types of areas where we're going to have kind of a mixed use of participation and my, I guess goal tonight is to discuss a lot of the issues that go into this. I did include a sample policy that I kind of put together and it kind of touches some key points. Certainly there's room for discussion on that policy and anything that the commission would like to discuss tonight or add or delete. Staff is certainly open to that tonight and that's why we provided the additional policies from other cities so you could get kind of ~ well rounded, education so to speak in looking at this policy. Staff feels it's important to adopt such a policy for our park system, and I think the time is now to take a look at that seriously and make some recommendations so, does anybody have any questions on that at all? Franks: Thanks Jerry. Well let's open it up for questions then. And since there's just us today, let's we can maybe just shoot our questions out as they come and respect each other's chance to field some questions. Jerry to field some question so, any cornmir, sioners have questions? Jerry, are you ready? I promised Jerry we'd be nice to him tonight. They never listen to me anyway but I thought I would throw that out. Ruegemer: Thank you. Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Atkins: Jerry, oh I'm sorry. Would it be public safety enforcing it? Ruegemer: Well it's, there's a couple ways that you can go about that issue. Some of the cities as you see, it really depends on how far we want to go with enforcement. Some have adopted or passed, kind of the bite of it is, if you get caught violating, it could be a misdemeanor or $25 fine. I guess my angle on it was more education at this point versus having a set fmc. You know I really found that hard to enforce. Are we going to send out a CSO or are Todd and I going to be deputized to write out tickets. Hoffman: The 7 of us in this room would do more enforcement than the police department would do the entire year. Unfortunately this level of you know, dogs in the park, all those issues just do not, they don't rise to the level of our con~xact with Carver County so you need to recognize when they put these, if you put these into force, it' s going to be up to us to do self enforcement. Kelly: I was curious too in this policy, did you intend on applying it to neighborhood parks, so if kids are playing a neighborhood park that you would prohibit smoking in that park or was it more towards if there was an organized activity going on in that park like a soccer game or a softball game? Ruegemer: You know kind of looking at the policies, it does address kind of my vision of this would be more in the active parks area. Lake Ann, Bandimere, Lake Susan. A lot of the areas where we have a lot of youth activities going on. Skate park. We certainly could, the playgrounds are certainly part of that. So whether we, maybe it's as simple as positing a sign of sorts in neighborhood park areas, I'm not opposed to that. Kelly: I was just curious. I didn't know. Stolar: With regards to signs, given that question about how many do you think we're going to have to put out there? Ruegemer: I figured rough numbers around 30. 30-35 I'm guessing. Hoffman: If you included playgrounds it would go higher. It'd be another 20. If you included every playground set of apparatus. Ruegemer: When figuring this number I really kind of kept more towards the active community locations. Kind of the information that, that was kind of basing the $15 price on was if you look in your packet, back at the sign for UFA. I did contact the UFA and those were approximately 14 and some change with shipping and freight and some of those prices with tax so, those were kind of the signs that I kind of based my numbers on. Stolar: Is there a quantity discount question of ordering some, because we're going to have some torn down. Ruegemer: Correct. Yeah, and the price certainly did go down with higher numbers. Stolar: Okay. Franks: I have a few. You mentioned that, Jerry that staff feels the time is now. What makes the time now to do this? Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 21Xr2 Ruegemer: Well number one, we have been receiving a few phone calls. It hasn't been ringing off the hook or anything. Franks: Like what is a few? Ruegemer: A few? Probably less than 5. Franks: In the past. Ruegemer: Oh couple years probably for that. Fmjust thinking now is a, as kids are kind of put in situations where they're you know, left unattended so to speak, I think there's a lot of situations out there they can get at, basically what I'm trying to do is provide safe, positive environments and really kind of look at the whole positive role model angle on this. There's a lot of, if you look at youth sports, there's a lot of positive that can come out of that and this is just an extension of that if we can provide safe environments for the kids. Hoffman: The addition and operation of the skate park was another reason that this has come to' the front of our agenda again. Franks: So, I mean we're saying that the parents.who come to watch theki .ds at the skate park are smoking. Ruegemer: Well not necessarily at the skate park alone, but there certainly is that .activity at a ball game on any given night at Lake fl, nn or Bandim~re. Hoffman: And the kids themselves are smoking. Franks: That's already against the law. Hoffman: No. Not if you're 18 or older. Franks: Well okay, right. But that's what I mem~, adults. Hoffrnan: You.rig adults who smoke. Franks: Right. : Hoffman: Primarily it would be young adults and then there are a number of under aged kids that smoke there as well. Atldns: What about at community gatherings like the 4~ of July and February Festival, things like that? Ruegemer: We had discussed that a little bit on the staff level and you kno~, enforcement certainly is an issue with those types of events. Hoffman: It's not going to be very popular. Ruegemen Yeah. Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Franks: What's not going to be very popular? Hoffman: No smoking at the 4t~ of July under the beer tent. Ruegemer: I guess that wasn't, that was kind of more, going more towards the park angle on this. Atkins: Well if the signs are posted more near the parks and not where the activity is taking place on the 4'h of July, people will assume that's an open zone probably. Not that it's good. I'm sure it gets pretty smoky in there. In the tent but. Stolar: Well this recommendation, it is specific though it's when youth activities are going on. Franks: Is that the intent that this be specific to when a youth, an organized youth activity is in progress? Ruegemer: That was kind of my intention for that. Franks: With the exception of the skate park being in all the time7 Ruegemer: Yeah, I think that was addressed in that, in the policy. Certainly you'd want to address the skate park as well. Stolar: The way it's written, it might need some clarification for playground to the skate park for example with a period. And then for the athletic fields and such, it's when youth activities. If that' s your intention, that' s some of the question. Franks: You als0 have the beaches involved. Are you suggesting that the beaches be part of the ban when there's an organized activity at the beach? Ruegemer: ' You know again this is kind of a policy that was put together for your review. We don't necessarily have to have beaches .in there. Franks: Well what do you think? Ruegemer: Well enforcement may be an issue down at the beach. Franks: No, but do you think that that's a good, I'm interested in what you think.. Do you think it's a good idea to have the ban extend to the beach or? Ruegemer: Me personally, yes. I'm not a big person in favor of smoking. I wish it would be banned all across the nation but, I won't let my personal biases to get in the way. Franks: Okay. Any other questions? Stolar: In summarizing this conversation, I don't know if now's the appropriate time but my thought would be that we would, at least I along the lines of Jerry, would think that at beaches, playgrounds, and at the skate park we would just want to ban smoking, and athletic fields, and I didn't see skate finks in here at all. Like for the outdoor ice skating, for those types of fields when youth activities are occurring. That would be something that I would be in favor of, but I don't know if I'd pose it as a friendly amendment. Franks: Well let's just move that right into the comments phase and you just take fight off. Park and Rec Commission - Dece~ 10, 2002 Stolar: Well that, I mean that would be my preferred approach, and enforcement, you know this is not something that we're looking to be bringing the hammer down. It's a, it is policy if this is adopted by the City Council, but it's not something that we're going to expend a whole lot of effort to enforce, so I think going that way to make the beach cleaner is a good thing. To make the playground areas better so I'd like to propose that as a friendly amendment to this approach, and I guess we have to bring this to the table first. So I can't put a friendly amendment to my own motion. Franks: We don't have a motion. Let's just finish the comments. Go around and then maybe that will help us define it up. Stolar: Okay. Atldns: It seems to me that it would be just a reminder and the signs would be a reminder. Make people think before they light up and I think people would comply voluntarily pretty well. As long as, if they can't smoke right on the beach, they can walk away from the beach into the woods if they have to. I think you'll have a problem with young adultS, on the beach in the evening, because they hang out them. Hoffman: During the lifeguarded times, the lifeguards will conduct enforcement. Atldns: Right. I think it's a good idea. Ruegemer: And also tobacco free also means chewing tobacco and a mimber of things as well. Franks: Right. Torn. Kelly: I think it's a gr6at idea. The only question I have is going to the next item agenda which is the fees for renting the parks. Would that mean, would you be in favor then of smoke-free picnic areas7 I'm just trying to, if we're going, what Glenn had said in terms of, and you said maybe beaches, skate park and neighborhood parks. Stolan I said playgrounds. Kelly: Playgrounds. Stolan Yes. Kelly: Then you know Lake Ann and Lake Susan both qualify as a beach'and a neighborhood, as a playground. I wonder would you want to apply the ban to the picnic areas so groups that signed up to have a picnic would know that there's no smoking at that facility and is that a direction that you'd want the policy to go or not. Ruegemer: I would not want that policy to go that direction. Stolan. And I think we would probably need to specifically exclude tha~ If we don't want it required. Kelly: Alright. I just wanted to bring that up. I don't want to make it too general and then have something like that all of a sudden fall under the guideline. That's it. Park and Rex: Commission - December 10, 2002 O'Shea: My comment is I think it's a fabulous principle/value statement that the city should take. Because it's hard to monitor, the less gray area there is, the ~tter. So when we start naming certain things and leaving certain areas out, it gets even more confusing I think to monitor, so if we could, would it be too vague to just go, you know whatever youth activity is going on or youth involvement, and that way like for example the 4~ of July when it's dark and it's late, those are mainly 18 and older. So really at the 4~ of July it wouldn't affect the youth. But in the day when they're doing more youth activity with the games. Well then it should apply that there shouldn't be smokers out in the field for example you know going inbetween the games. So could we just say, you know wherever there's youth activities involved, and then I do think too we should exclude the private rental groups in this as well. So that would be my comment. To make it as simple as we could instead of naming specific, you know and then in the, whatever you write up, you could give examples of lists that it be soccer games, skate park, but I'd say the simpler you can write it, the easier it would be to enforce when you have to. But it's excellent principle/value statement I think. Hoffman: The one difficulty I think is that the written policy is not going to be something that the general public comes in contact with so how do you write that is really not as important as what the sign says and where the sign goes. Unfortunately that's how we operate as a society. If there's not a sign in front of my face that tells me I can't do it, and if somebody walks up to me and says oh yeah, there's a paper up in the draw at City Hall that says you can't do it. Well I don't really care. Put a sign in front of my face and then I might listen to you. So signs have to go up around the perimeter of the beach, at the playgrounds, which generally have an access point at the skate which have an access point, and then they'll go up on the back stops of all the fields and we might in fact have two signs. One sign if we go the way of Commissioner Stolar that says no smoking at this facility which would be posted at beaches, playgrounds and skate parks and then the athletic fields it could say no smoking during these athletic events. Franks: Well I'm going to pull a Jay and, which this is not going to seem like'me, the comment I'm going to make but I do not think this is a good idea. I don't think it's a necessary .idea for one thing. I think we,. I'm not personally a smoker either and it kind of bugs me a little bit too, but you know my kids are out at sporting events and we're down at the beach and although maybe I've been nuisanced very, very infrequently, I haven't really seen it as too much of a problem and so when I'm applying kind of my own cost benefit analysis and although I would certainly talk to anyone about how it's not a healthy habit to engage in, you know I'm wondering is coaches who aren't going to coach and grandparents who aren't going to show up and parents who aren't going to take their kids to the beach or people who, I mean because of that. And people who smoke are paying taxes too and I know we have limitations on lots of behaviors that we have. We could limit behavior, that's perfectly fmc, but considering that we've gotten 5 calls, and I expected it. That's what I expected. I just asked the question to confkrrn what I had expected. That you've gotten 5 calls in the last so many years is indicating that people are really more concerned maybe about other things than the smoking that's going on in our parks. We are in the business of park and recreation and through that we promote health, but I don't know if as a government agency we want to get too involved in indicating what values people are supposed to have while they're using their park and recreation. About as far as I could go in attempting to rationalize it and justify a position here was a safety issue in like a designated play structure area where the last thing I'd want while kids are nmning around is someone's big, long cigarette ash hanging out that they'll nm into and get burned on or something like that so that might be something that I could see, but if that were really happening and a problem Jerry, I'd bet you'd be getting calls. And we're just not getting them. And I'd like to use the argument of is this something we want to spend some money on? The money's not that much so that's not the big deal to me. But pan of Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 me thinks the tick off factor to a lot of people is going to be greater than the benefit we're going to get from something we can't enforce and that maybe people aren't really identifying as a big issue. That's my feeling on it and so, although at some point in the future I would think maybe we'll have to deal with this, but I'd rather see a thing where we encourage the sports organizations who use our facilities to start enacting their own policies on that one, and for them to begin to monitor their members uses on our facilities instead of us dictating in a sense that kind of social behavior. So Fm sounding like a libertarian tonight I guess, but less gov~t sometimes is more. Stolar: Can I ask a question? Beside fi'om the complaints, are there a lot of cigarette butts, clean- up issues? Hoffman: Ask Dale. Gregory: Down at the beach there's a lot. There's a lot of them down there. The ballfields up on the softball fields and that, there's quite a few but the beach is really the worst that I see. Franks: But with that occurring, it's also when there's adults. Gregory: Pardon? Franks: For the softball area they do also when there's adult. All adult activity. Stolar: Right, which we wouldn't prohibit them. What about in the skate park? Were these 5 calls all related to the skate park or were they spread across? Ruegemer: Not necessarily the skate park. I mean it's just more overall type 0fthing. We've got things at the, some of the special events, some of those type of things so, it's not necess~y specific to the skate park, no. Franks: The thing that also, I agree with it and I bristle that I agree with it, but it's the whole thing about the role model issue. Where I'm trying to separate my feelings from my .cognitions. My emotions from my cognitions. And part of you know, one of my kid's best soccer coaches that commanded the most respect and had the most skill, you know turned around at half time and lit up. And so you think, you know that always kind of bugged me a little bit but yet when I talk about who was your favorite coach, thi~ is the person that comes up. And as a child I remember also that of course the behavior, smoking was much different but I don't, I'm having a hard time with me personally thinking how it adversely affected me to see or that I had negative images of some of these people in my. life as adult sports .figures who smoked as having a real negative influence on me. It may exist but I don't know if the correlation is... Hoffman: That's why it hasn't bugged you today. Franks: It doesn't bug me today. Hoffman: That's why. Franks: But I'm one of the first people that's like, when we went on a cruise, I picked the no smoking ship so that's why, I know you're laughing and I was happy, happy, happy. Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Hoffrnan: All school buildings and grounds are no smoking. All public city buildings are no smoking so this building, all city buildings that we have. The rec center. And the, there's all sorts of issues here. Why do we let drinking go on and not smoking in areas? Why would we prohibit smoking at youth events and not at an adult event? The beach is an issue I think for maintenance and the proximity of these people. That's where I see the most disturbance between people that are smoking and people who do not care to be in that environment. And then the skate park's a real issue because we have tons of kids in close proximity and I would just as soon be able to walk over there and tell any person not to stop in the skate parle Franks: See I think we can make a justification on the safety issue that smoking at the skate park poses a risk. A safety risk. Because if you have people in that enclosed area smoking and skaters going all over the place, you know people are more compacted in, I think we can do that. If we want to say that smoking at the beach is creating a cost because of maintenance and a hassle, and a nuisance to people attempting to use the beach which is a defined, confined space, I think we could justify that as well. I could even go so far as saying in the play structure, inside the play structure area, because again you have the same kind of safety risk, that that seems consistent for me. But I run into the same problems. We're going to let adults smoke at adult activities and we're not going to let them, you know at their youth activities and it's because of the value issue like you bring up, but is that our business. Hoffman: That's for you to decide. Franks: Yes, and I would say that it is not. Kelly: How were these received at Roseville and Bloomington? Ruegemer: You know I didn't ask that specific question of the individual cities. So I couldn't comment on that. I mean most are relatively new, probably within the last couple years. Just kind of the momentum Of this issue certainly has gained in the last couple years. Hoffman: It was obviously a hot topic in Eden Prairie that most of you I'm'sure followed. Stolar: In the Roseville discussion they say in youth activity areas when children are present, and that's their wording. In our discussion fight, to me, you know Rod's question about the question of setting the example. You know I would actually go the opposite side of Rod. I'd just ban it from the parks personally. That's how I would do it because I think it is a nuisance to the people who don't smoke and they don't get a choice, fight if someone lights up. And it's also a safety and clean-up issue, but I would understand with Rod's statement that maybe we focus initially on a policy that says these are key youth activity areas where children are present. There are safety and cost risks, or costs associated with those. Focus on those. See how it goes and potentially expand. Again we aren't talking a lot of money so we pay $15 a sign now, we pay $16 in two years if we expand it. It's not going to hurt us. But I do think those areas, my key focus is what Rod said. The playgrounds, the skate park and the beach. Those are the key areas I'm most concerned about. Now you have another question which is if we go to the city with recommending beyond that, or we only purchase signs for those areas, then we aren't spending . the money but we do have a policy in place that we can casually enforce. We can add signs later but we go with our policy. I don't know if that solves part of your dilemma Rod about the expense. Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Franks: No. I'm saying, I wish I could make that a dilemma but I can't because we're not talking about that much money. I mean $750 .to go full bore with it is, that's not an issue. It'd be nice to have that as an argument but it's not. Hoffman: There's also a choice in the fact that if you make it policy or in Bloomington it's enacted as an ordinance by the City Council. So you can include that in your recommendation. At what level do you want this in your policy. Franks: Well I'd like to even see things like I, a tobacco use policy for outdoor settings, because tobacco flee just strikes me as being so subjectively value laden that I don't know if that's our business. Because we're talking about restricting the use of tobacco for justifiable reasons. Protecting the safety of children, just like we expect playgrounds to be safe and you' know in code. O'Shea: Can I ask you a question Rod on your, because I see where your reference point has not, you know values and principles but I see it as, it's an extension of our building. For example the parks, if you doomed it, you'd have the no smoking policy. So to me just because you remove a roof shouldn't eliminate what we feel the value or principle statement for the. city. So that's why. Franks: But where I would go with that is, I'm agreeing to do it in closed, outdoor statements. Skate park, playground, a beach. Those are definable and you could say e~.closed area. A beach is as big as it is, you know, and playground is defined and enclosed. The skate park is fenced in. Just like a building has four walls on it. O'Shea: Okay. Oh, so you're for all those areas. Franks: I'm saying I could go along with that I would prefer not 'to have this. 'My preference would be this is not, it's not necessary at all at this point. So Glenn: make ~ stab at a motion.. Oh, the other thing that I'm .thinking too is, I would like to see this, if we'do agree to do'a policy Or to take this as far as ordinance, it says here in the staff's recommendation that a_~er review staff should be directed to make changes and forward to the City Council. I'd like us as a commission to forward, if we're going to go that far, what our policy would be and not just that we're forwarding the idea of creating this policy and here's the guidelines. It' s that we actually, are you following me on that? Hoffman: Absolutely. We'll make, we'll adapt it up'for yom'January 'meeting. Franks: Yeah, great. Alright Glenn. Stolar.. I make a motion that the Parks and Recreation Commission' direct staff to draft a tobacco policy outlining the prohibition of tobacco usage at the beaches, playground areas and skate park. And we only have one now but we've always talked about multiple. . . Franks: Alright. Anything else? Is there'a second? Stolar:. Yeah, no. That will be it. Franks: Okay, is there a second to the motion? O'Shea: I second. Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Franks: Okay, it's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion? That sounds good. Stolar moved, O'Shea seconded that the Parks and Recreation Commission direct staff to draft a tobacco policy outlining the prohibition of tobacco usage at the beaches, playground areas and skate park. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Franks: So staff, we will look forward to our meeting in January. Hoffman: And no reference to athletic fields? Franks: At this point no. Stolar: At this point no. I reserve the right in January to change my mind. Franks: Well I think where we're going to be headed Todd is that we'll enact a policy, hopefully the City Council will endorse enactment of this policy. And then at any point in the future we can amend the policy to fit the changing needs of the community or culture. Stolar: Yeah, I think that that's the...important that we can extend it if we need to, or decide to. ESTABLISH 2003 PICNIC RESERVATION FEES. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks. We did discuss this item at length at the November meeting. The commission did direct staff to ~)btain some additional information, and Id'nd of close some gaps on some things and research past picnic users, which was ail done. Basicaily what I did is kind of take a look at the, I think Commissioner O'Shea had taiked about the, that the rates weren't proportionai in looking at. We did take a look at ail those rates from location and classification of that and take a look at those and adjust those so they are proportionate with each other across the board. Hopefully that looks okay to the commission. I also had contacted' and obtained information from, I just used three, kind of our neighboring areas that provide picnic facilities. The City of Eden Prairie, the City of Chaska, and Three Rivers Park District. Their fees are listed in the memo as well as included within your packet for your review, so I think that will be helpful for the commission to kind of base their decision tonight on the 2003 fees. I did talk to people, really my findings were that people that have paid kind of the, obviously the lower fees could absorb a little bit higher percentage of a rate increase if needed. If need be. And aiso then in talking .to the kind of the higher end people, the non-Chanhassen business people in the 250-280 range people, things I think will be a little bit tougher for them to absorb. I think a little bit would be airight but one even said that Lake Ann's a good value because we don't have a parking fee of course so. Hoffrnan: Which Three Rivers charges. Ruegemer: Right. That's correct. And so, in taiking to the people who have been out here for a number of years, I think a small rate increase probably would be fine. I mean they certainly were concerned about having a major, major increase since we are again, as you can see, one of the kind of the higher cities and higher agencies that do charge picnic rates. Granted we do have very nice amenities with, I think we can get, we certainly have a lot to offer at our picnic locations. So what I aiso did is, you know taking a look at, and talking to people, I think a 10 percent increase certainly could be absorbed, be okay with any of these organizations in context that I did talk to. We did, I did take a look at creating kind of a tier system and basicaily I defined the weekday 10 Park and Re(: Commission - December 10, 2002 rates as Monday through Thursday, starting with weekend rates on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, as consistent with Three Rivers and other axeas as well. Taking a look at the tables listed below is the current kind of adjusted rates proportionally. The Monday through Thursda~ That was based on our rates that we've had in the past, adjusted to the appiop~iate new n~. And then the Friday and Saturday on the fight hand side of the column was the reflection of the 10 percent increase per category within those sites mentioned. The Lake Susan shelter, Lake Ann pavilion, and the Lakeside and Parkview areas at Lake Ann Park. Now with that I will certainly field questions if the council has questions or comments. Franks: Any quick questions for Jerry? Jerry, good job. Ruegemer: Thank you. Franks: I don't have any questions but I think this now like to me makes sense. It looks good. You know when you actually see 10 percent from a dollar amount on some of this stuff, it doesn't look like a whole lot but the philosophy is there and it gives ns something that is much more logical to work with in the future, and it sets the stage for how we're going to approach this now and I think that works really good. It was great that you actually, and I'm s.ure those weren't easy phone calls to make, but to call up some of the past users and idnd of feel out where they're at and that's just great to also give ns that kind of information and it tends to support whexe we were going last week, so that was really helpful for me. And I think that what w.e've got here is really good and I would certainly recommend supporting it. Open it up for any other comffmnts. Amy? O'Shea: I think it's good. It does help to make sense of it, so I think it looks good. . .. Franks: Commissioner Kelly? ' Kelly: I think it looks great. Atkins: I was wondering if you think that's a large enough increase. Or if it's going to have to be raised again next year. The year after? Ruegemer: Kind of what my philosophy on raising fees has been, in the past, is that we look at, if we do recommend a rate increase, to hold that fee for a couple-tirade years and then m-address it at that point. I personally have not been in favor of 10 percen_ting it every year with that, so knowing that in mind I'd like to kind of establish that fee and maintain it, whether it's softball fees or basketball fees. Picnic fees.' I like to kind of maintain that so .people'don't feel like they're getting nickel and dime every time they sign up for something. But ff you remember, I didn't recommend an increase in November so I think 10 percent is plenty, but that certainly is at the commission's discretion tonight to raise that fee. Franks: Were you thinking going, when you look at those dollar amounts, it doesn't seem like a whole lot. Atkins: No. It looks affordable for me, and it very well could affect me and I would be perfe~y happy with these rates. I just know that for instance with our theater we raise ticket prices every couple of years and we'd rather do it in, not do it. Franks: I'm sorry, rather. 11 Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Atldns: Raise it and leave it for a few years before we raise them again rather than do it every year because people notice that so, this looks great. Stolar: I apologize for not being in the discussion last meeting. This looks great. Just a couple thoughts. One would be, I noticed Three Rivers Park District they have a 20 percent differential between weekday and weekends. Something to consider in the future. And then Eden Prairie has half day rentals that are more than half the amount. That might also be a consideration for the future. Something, depending on demand side, that we might consider. I also like the idea of, this new request that we sent this as a 2003 rate, but I'm wondering if this group, again not being on the discussion last time I don't know if we talked about this, might recommend setting it for two years. So that it is, we've asked people to absorb an increase. We went out directed them and asked them can you absorb it. Part of this could be saying, you know you can count on us for a couple years obviously. City Council can always over nde us but we can recommend this for two years. Franks: Personally I don't know if I want to box myself in on that, considering that we're starting the tiered approach for our very first year. I'd really like to see how it goes and what the response is, and if that's something we want to look at for in the future, ?m sure that, or Jerry, if that's where you feel you need to go, that that would be part of the next reservation lees recommendation. Ruegemer: Sometime in the future would the commission like to see ~e breakdown of, you know from this point going forward, the breakdown of you know how many resident reservations we're getting on residents, that sort of thing. Franks: It might be helpful. The other thing that I'd like to ask to do is if there's some way to track the volume of requests, and if we can determine whether we have high volume weekends. How many people we might be turning away, or who's request you can't fulfill that would be willing to sign up. If there's just some way when the calls come in that you could log those and have that be part of the year end report as well. I'd like some sense of what the actual demand is. We know what the supply is. Or as close as we can. I mean it will be antidotal... Ruegemer: We can do antidotal. Franks: Alright. Any other comments or questions? Alright. How about a motion? Kelly: I'll make a motion-to recommend to the City'Council to accept th~ 2003 group picnic reservation fees proposed by staff. Franks: Okay, is there a second? Atldns: I second. Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Any discussion? Seeing none. Kelly moved, Atkin.q seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council adopt the 2003 group picnic reservation fee schedule as proposed. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Franks: Thank you Jerry. Nice work. 12 Park and Rec Commission - Decemtx~ 10, 2002 TRE~ LI(~I:ITIN~ ~0NY R_~RT. Franks: Let's move through these and hit the high points if you can. Ruegemer: Okay. Thanks again. The verbal went to written today so I passed out that information to you as well tonight. We had a pretty nice night on Saturday night for the tree lighting ceremony. We did, did you think it was cold? The fire was nice. I was warm but I was running around too much. But we had, I think around 200 people'them which is really has gained in popularity and numbers wise since certainly I've done it. 12-13 years ago when I first started it but it was a nice event. We had Chapel I-Fall there singing carols and Santa arrived on the aerial fire truck which was fun, and it was a fun event having the Chamber down in the old Village Hall building certainly lends it.serf to a nice location for that event so they can promote the ~ business and having kind of a focal point and having a fun event that evening so. Other than that, that was about it. I think our hope once the library is complete is to kind of relocate things back to, I kind of view this as our tempormy home, and when City Center Park gets built and completed, that will have a permanent tree in that location. Franks: City Centex Commons. Ruegemer: I'm sorry, City Center commons. That will have a focal point for thi~ and that will be kind of spread out between two locations so. Franks: Good. Any comments? No? Just one. I am just wondering if there's any way to start taking a look at these types of events as finding a way for them to be serf-supporting. And that may mean some creativity and I don't know exactly what you would do but things, this cost us $230 tb put this one, and is there a way, some way for these types of events to be serf-supporting. Whether that's through some kind of concession or whether, I mean. I don't know exactly .what it would be, or some Santa raffle ahead of time or whatever. But I'd like you f6r next year, and generally speaking for some of these programs tO see what you can come up with. Hoffman: You could call it self supporting tonight based off of our sponsorship program. Franks: Okay. Hoffman: We raised $10,000 in cash specifically for our special events programs. Franks: For this. Okay. Ruegemer: This and other events. Atldns: What was the money used for specifically at the ceremony? Franks: It's on the back of the. Atkins: Oh, I didn't see the back, sorry. Ruegemer: That's kind of a breakdown of how the money was., the expenditures for that program. 13 Park and Rea Commission - December 10, 2002 Franks: And some, I know that some of these programs there's like no way they can be self supporting. I mean just absolutely not but some of them maybe, and then we'd have more resources through the sponsorship program to apply to other things. I mean generally-speaking. Hoffman: Brought to you by. Franks: Brought to you by. I was just going back to my Y experience and if you didn't break even on a program: you probably didn't nm your program the next year. At least that was my experience. Atkins: Well I can't believe Santa charged 70. Franks: Bah, humbug. Atkins: He's a good Santa though. Stolar: Quickly, do you have these laid out for 2003, all the different events. What dates they're going to occur? Ruegemer: Yeah. Stolar: Could you next meeting. Ruegemer: I can nm upstairs and get it for you now. Stolar: Well in January maybe just bring it as a report item showing the events for 2003. Not that I would have attended, because I had the flu Saturday but my wife had made plans for the same day before we got the date, or at least before I knew about it. So I mean get it on the calendar first this time. Atkins: I do have one more comment. I was there and I think that having Chapel Hill involved brought in I'd say more than half of the people. I did not know anybody there except Todd and the firemen and you. And my father. And my family but otherwise I knew no one and that's really unusual for me to go to a community event and not know anybody. So I think that that's where all the people came from. And that's a good thing. That's a good thing, but and also, I would love to see it remain at that spot forever because that's the heart of old downtown and I think it's a great spot for it. It was fun. RECREATION CENTER REPORT. Franks: Let's move onto the recreation center. Susan. Marek: Well I've come to report on the perennial topic on the rex: center so why don't we start off with the child care programming. Those of you who have served on the commission for a lengthier time know that this one comes up quite often out at the rec center. Our program did begin this September and to date, that was the first week in December, we had $250 in revenues and expenses of $900. We're just not getting participation in that program with enough children. It's always a balancing act for us to come out in the black. I don't expect that this will turn around. I think it will increase January-February. Start falling off in March and be very low again in April and May. Right now because of the cycle that we print the newsletters at, they get mailed out to all Chanhassen residents, we are committed to nm this program through the end of March. Generally the school year is a good breaking point for this program because we do close 14 Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 it down over the summer months anyway, so at thig point I am going forward with the thought that we will cancel entirely the child care program in June of 2003, with no start-up scheduled at all. And I'm just looking for your thoughts on that topic. Franks: How are we committed through March? Marek: The newsletter that gets mailed out, it was mailed on November 6~, has in it information regarding child care availability at the rec center. That newsletter covers activities in January, February and March. Franks: But how many people are going to be affected by that? Marek: My guess is probably 20 to 25 families. That would choose to use the facility and then not have it available. Franks: Okay. Stolar: Do you see any, did you say it's closed down in the summer. Do. we have any unapt demand in the summer? If kids are out of school then, or is it for lower aged kids? Marek: Our child care runs for children 6 weeks to 6 years in age. Generglly in the summer the demand goes down because people are doing other activities not interior to the rec center and secondly there are older school children at home to help spread out that burden with the younger one also. O'Shea: You know it concerns me because Fm thinking how can you grow the usage at the rec. center, in all areas. In classes and the fitness room and then actually the daycare', or not the' dayca~e., the babysitting area, or child care. So I'm just thinking, it seems like it's such a, you know I'm puzzled why it hasn't you know, it's a tough one because I think if you, how can.you grow if you can't offer that because that's a real good incentive for people'to come and use the' rec center. This is nothing new, but why aren't they? So I'm thinking if you promote, you know I'm for spending more money to promote the rec center use. But if you don't have babysitting, that really cuts down your target market that you're going to be going after. If you don't have, you know from September through May, because then you're going, to really narrow it down to people that have grade school kids and up to come and use it if you get rid of it, right? Hoffrnan: Well ctnxently we only have 20 or 25 familie~ that are using it so that's a...market ' O'Shea: But theh'I'm thinking, but you're not really want to be even in'all the areas, right? Wouldn't you want to' have more people in the fimess? Franks: Well it's about maxed out. We're at a maximun~ Marek: The participation in the fimesS room itself is a self, it's serf limiting. That is, you know we can sell as many punch cards as we want but as the crowds get bigger in there, then it serves as it's own deterrent. If people can't get on their treadmill, they're not going to come back so it, you can't keep promoting and pushing that and selling punch cards and then having people be angry because they're not able to access the equipment that they want. Franks: Amy question is good. Is it possible to grow in the current physical set-up? The cardio vascular workout programming at the rec center. 15 Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Marek: Are you referring to the fitness room? Franks: Yes, the fitness room. Marek: We are space limited. Franks: Space limited and you're pretty much maxed out. Marek: We're maxed. Right now the only program thoughts that we have with regard to any equipment changes in that room are replacements, not additions. Franks: And what about for aerobic classes? Marek: Right now our morning aerobic classes are doing pretty well. Our evening classes have decreased attendance. Franks: Okay, but it's during the daytime that you have child care anyway. Marek: Yes. Franks: And those classes are doing well. And the daycare's still not bein~ used. Marek: That is correct. Franks: Okay. O'Shea: So going to the fitness room, what do you consider rnaxed at say 9:30 in the morning? How many people would be in there? Marek: In the fitness room? O'Shea: Yeah, in the cardio vascular. Marek: Oh 10 to, somewhere between 10 and 20 in that room. O'Shea: So you could have up to 20 people. Marek: It's tight. O'Shea: And you feel you're at 20 people? Marek: No, not all the time. No, but I think we could handle that. O'Shea: Okay but you're not, I'm just thinking when I come there to work out thare's room for a lot of people to fit in there because, what I've seen in two years, to me, let me ask this. Three years ago, four, you had more usage, correct? Marek: In the child care room? 16 Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 O'Shea: Well we'll start with the, well child cam but I was thinking fight now specifically the cardio vascular room. Or fitness room. Mamk: Okay. I don't have numbers on the number of participants that are in them at any given time during the day. Generally we look at punch card sales as an indicator of how those facilities are being used. Now the last two years punch card sales have leveled off at about $75,000 to $80,000 a year. O'Shea: Okay, and is that a decrease from initial? Marek: It is not a decrease. It is flat. So we've been increasing, increasing since we open~ and leveled off the last two years at about $78,000 Todd? O'Shea: And that's not due to price increase per card or anything? Marek: One of those was a price increase that happened two years ago. But the Ixend would still be there even without the price increase. The number of cards sold. O'Shea: Okay, because I thought the last time, I misunderstood. I thoUght there was room for growth at the rec center, but now I'm hearing there isn't room for growth. Is that ~? For usage. Marek: I think that your statement is a little general. We have to talk about in what, what are you referring to when you say growth. In what area? Do we have growth in terms of programming in our meeting moms? Yes. Do we have growth in some programming areas for new sports in 'the gymnasium? Yes. Do we have growth in packing more people' into the fimess room? You know only between the hours of 1:00 and 3:00 p.m. The dance and aerobics .studio is booked generally all day except between noon and 3:00. So it depends on where you're looking at in terms of growth. In some areas there room. In some areas there's not.. O'Shea: I guess I was relating more when babysitting, you know going back to babysitting, so I don't know if you have to use the fitness room as well as where you hold the' classes so I was looking at those two. See how it can be more self sufficient, that's paying for itself is what. And if you're saying that, then it gets back to, if those rooms are at max, then you'd be better off to turn the babysitting room into another cardio vascular area. The last time I heard that wasn't the case because. Hoffman: We want to keep it for a raeeting room. O'Shea: Okay. But see I, okay. I thought your numbers were chopping somewhat with the participation in those two rooms. Marek: In our aerobic class participation in the evenings particularly has declined. Use in the aerobics studio overall has been increasing. (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) O'Shea: ...because last time you said that the babysitting was much more used. It was used a lot more four years ago than it is today. Marek: Right. For two years we were able to make that break even. 17 Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 O'Shea: So the people that are using the facility then must have changed. If you haven't lost numbers. Marek: That's quite possible. We have a lot of the same people that are still using the facility. Their children have just gotten older. O'Shea: But that changes your target market. Marek: Okay. Stolar: Do we see the impact on the new construction that's going on in that area? Potentially bring this up. Hoffman: Pulte. Stolar: Pulte and I think that's the big one, right? That we visited. Marek: I think that potential is always there. Keep in mind that our initial market for 'this program is a small slice of the whole population to begin with because we're looking at the stay at home parent who chooses to come to the rex: center and do one of two things. Go to a class that specifically happens at 9:30 in the morning, or goes to the fitness room between 9:00 a.m. and 11:00 a.m.. That's a pretty narrow window when you look at the general population. It really you know takes our market and makes it a very small market. Franks: Five years ago I said we'd be meeting one day to end the daycare program. For four years you have proved me terribly wrong, and I got to the point when I read this report I was truly sorry because I wanted to keep eating that crow for as long as I could. Marek: I did too and Todd knows-that I' ve worked and worked at this for a few years.. Franks: I have to say, for the benefit of the rest of the commissioners up here that, I don't think, well there's no one I know that could have kept this program running for as long as you did and to have tried to everything that could possibly tried from promotion and advertising within the means that we can work, to creative staffing and everything so I really want to applaud Susan your effort in doing that. And to start with the negative, when you have a whole page here of positive things that are going on, that's also great but next time in interpersonal communications it's usually best to start with the positives and then roll into the less-than positives but I appreciate... Hoffman: Susan's braver than most. Franks: You know I know that the newsletter suggests that it is a service that's going to be available til March but I'm wondering if there just isn't some way to end it shordy after the first of the year. I know we want to be fair to the people who work as well, and to give those that are using the service some reasonable notice that it's going to be ending but. Kelly: It's about $300 a month. Marek: Well certainly the people in this room have the ability to pull the plug on it whenever we decide to do that. My thought is that, I would at least like us to continue through to the end of 18 Park and Rex: Commission - December 10, 2002 March, first of all to commit to the staff person in there and give them some planning time. And the second thing, which has a bigger i .mpact on my management skills, would be managing the two aerobic instructors who's children use child care while they're working for the rec center and teaching classes. Franks: How much would you, how much are you projecting that this program's going to lose between now and March? Marek: I think we're probably looking at, well less than the 650 you see them. Probably another 500. 400 to 500. We will have more participation simply because more people pamflm in fitness activities January, February, March. Franks: Right. So we're going to have to eat about $1,000. Marek: We are. I'm prepared to do that. Hoffman: Rod may recall, the others probably not, that before Susan started operating this program, this thing would lose 4,000 or 5,000. Franks: Thousand in a year, right. Hoffman: So Susan has done, backing on Rod's comments, a wonderful jol~ in keeping this thing right at the break even. Franks: It even looked like a few years we were going to turn mo'ney on this one so. Marek: Any concluding comnmnts you'd like to share with me on this one7 Hoffman: Art exhibitors. Marek: Alright. I'm going to go forward. Franks: Are you looking for us to give you direction on what to do on this program right now7 Marek: I don't think so. I'm just collecting information. At this point my feeling as manager of the rec center is I'm committed to have this open through March. That is my absolutely commitment at this point in managing this pm.gram. Franks: Okay. I think you might want to move on. Marek: How about if we do that. Franks: Since it is the holiday season. Marek: Exactly. A couple of back to back fabulous art exhibits out at the tee e~nter. The first time we've been into the realm of photography and we've had a wonderful reception to that, and the first photographer sold about 8 of his photographs and the second photographer, Loft Hernandez, her show is on through the month of January so something a little different and unusual. Sculpture is coming up on the schedule in March so that will be a different medium for us to show out there. Moving onto the dance program. 243 enrollees. We're pretty proud of that number at this point because we did have a big change in our dance staff so we're really 19 Park and Rcc Commission - December 10, 2002 happy to hold that number. And really big into planning the spring recital entitled childhood dreams, and once again we did se, cum the Eden Prairie Performing Arts Center. The price on rental on that facility is about $2,400 to rent that for one night of rehearse and-one day of performances. So that's a huge expense for us but of course we do make that up in our ticket sales. Hoffman: Dance is the second largest revenue generating program in the city, next to punch cards. $40,000 or $50,000 a year. Number two. Marek: And then going onto punch card sales. Just kind of a heads up here. December is our biggest month for punch card sales. We do run a sale for the entire month of December. People can buy that $40 punch card, get the 10 punch free along with it. Certainly people stock up during this time of the year, and we have a disproportionate of sales happening during this month because of it. Our customers really seem to think that that' s a really big deal. It' s a good, it gives our customers a good feeling to know that in the December we're going to have that price break. So even as we may consider price increases in the future, this sale in Dece~r is a good thing and really brings in the revenues there right at the end of the year. Kelly: Can I ask a totally unrelated question? Marek: Of course. Kelly: Given that a room might be opening up with child care, has the rec center ever ~onsidered spinning as an option? Is it too expensive7 Do you think it's on the way down 'in terms of popularity? Is there too much up front capital that has to be invested? Is it too difficult to find a qualified spinning instructor? Yes to all those? Marek: Of course. Definitely not decreasing in popularity. Still I think increasing and leveling off. It's always going tO be a popular option out/here because of the non-impact nature of it. Certainly there's capital expense required. It is about $750 per bicycle for spinning and we simply haven't had that kind of capital available for those expenditures. 'Also there is a space constraint because we may need 10 to 12 bikes to hold a class, but then we have to have somewhere to put them when the class isn't in session, so that's an issue. With regard to the room being available, child care only occupied it for 2 ½ to 3 hours in the morning and then that. room was used, is used for meetings the rest of the day. Kelly: Okay. I was just curious became I know it's, I know it's popular. I know they had it at Bokoo Bikes. I don't know how popular it is at Bokoo Bikes but I know you could definitely' charge a premium over and above 2 punches to go to a spinning class. Marek: It's very popular at Bokoo Bikes, and I've been to those classes several times myself. And I've tried a number of times to have them set their bikes up out at the rec center for a month or two and run their classes out there but haven't been successful in firming up that arrangement as yet. Franks: And I agree with Commissioner Kelly on this, and maybe anything else that you want to come up with. That although there's nothing necessarily wrong with capital expenditures. If we present the plan that show that those expenditures are going to provide a return on our investment, you know we will certainly take a look at that and find some ways to deal with capital issues as best as we can. Sorry Todd to make budget busting types of statements to you but. 20 Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Hoffman: No, that's fine but theo again, we could make a recomngndafion and just fill the entire meeting room with capital equipment and make money. But is that our philosophy? Those four rooms are vitally irr~, ortant to this community as meeting space and so it's not just can we make money because we could make more money at the rec center. Franks: But like a, you know something like the bikes, and you're talking about a sparta to do them but I've seen it where they get moved in and they get moved out and they get moved in for the classes and then. Hoffman: No place to put them... Franks: But as an exan~le of some more creative thinking about a way to maximiTe the multi- task on space. What I'm suggesting is don't let capital type of expenditures get in your way of being creative in finding a way to. Marek: Well I appreciate that optimistic outlook on capital expendiULreS. Franks: And I also want to point out too that tim Dance for Pun. That's fantastic after losing kind. of the lead person that ran and built that program, to maintain enrollment where it's at and the excitement in the program that you have, and it just shows again I thin. k some more leader, progrmmnatic leadership that we are apprecia .fin. g. _ Marek: It's a nice program. It's really one of the premiere programs we have out th.ere, and you will all receive invitations and tickets to the recital-. Hoffman: Alright. Marek: It's a pretty big show. Franks: Alright, thank you. Kara, are you ready? SENIOR CENTER REPORT. Wickenhauser: I'm ready. Gor~ evening to everyone; Currentl~ I'm basically working on new programming here for the year 2000. Pm continuing to work with the Chaska Park and Rec Depamnent, the Eden Prairie Senior Center, and the City of Victoria to provide one day tours'for our seniors here. I do have a meeting scheduled with Joyce...with the South Shore Senior'Cente~ to discuss possibly working with her more frequently since the two communities are so close here. As far as one day tour, they did outline the numbers of our last tom's that we bought over the last 4 or 5 months. The only tour I don't here with a number is the holiday lighting tour that we had last night. That was put on by Southwest Metro Transit. We _used their. Franks: Trolley? Wickenhauser: Yes, so everyone really loved it. We could take up to 25 and we had 20 seniors on it. They toured the city, the Chanhassen, Chaska and Eden Prairie and hit a little bit of Edina so they just loved it, and for 2 bucks. What do you get for $2 for a 3 hour bus ride, so I think they extended the tour for an hour so, they were loving it. Our senior center continues to offer extended tours. This summer we did a tour to Quebec and Montreal. We had 22 people for that event. We had 8 people who traveled to Ireland. Upcoming we have a tour to Hawaii in 21 Park and Rex: Commission - December 10, 21302 February of 2003, and to Italy November, 2003 so it will be exciting to see how those turn out. If anyone wants to go, go ahead and register. They all sound great. We also held our annual holiday social this past Friday at the Recreation Center. We had 72 seniors in' attendance. Entertainment was provided by the Minnetonka Go 4's, which is a barbershop quartet. Hors d'oeuvres were catered by Millie's Deli. Everything was excellent. The food and entertainment was probably one of our best. Some of the new programs at the senior center is in the process of organizing or have organized is our senior safety seminar program. We have a wood carving project that we're working on for the new library. Our instnmaental group, and an open swimming program with the Americlnn in town here. Enclosed in your packets you'll find a copy of both the senior safety seminar and the wood carving projects. If any of you haven't had an opportunity to read these articles, they're great articles that outline each of these programs so please take a chance to read them. Our senior safety seminar...back in the end of October. We had 47 seniors from the Chanhassen community that attended. Very well received. It was a joint effort between the City of Victoria and the City of Chanhassen. There was a lot of involvement with the Carver County law enforcement and both fire departments from Victoria and Chanhassen. Just a wonderful program. They want us all again to host it next year so we plan to host it with the City of Victoria again. The wood carving club, they have met with the library committee and have given them the go ahead to donate a wooden quilt.- It's going to be a quilt of 16 blocks. They're going to do 12 x 12 blocks of butternut and they're going to, each of them axe going to carve a historical site from Chanhassen's history and so there will be a brochure that will be developed to go along with this quilt that's going to basically describe, each historical find, each block and then a little bit about the carver themselves. Who carved the blocks so that will be kind of neat. So they're busy working on that right now. Our instrumental group is 8 months new.. We have 3 saxophones, a trumpet, a keyboard and a clarinet player but they're still looking 'for a percussionist, a trombone and a, what else is the other one? Percussion, trombone, and what is the other one? I can't even remember. If you know of any of those two instruments, please let me know. And let's see, I do have a meeting set for next month with Susan Jesperson from Americlnn to discuss the possibilities of an open swim program for this upcoming winter, so we're hoping to, well I hope to have all the details set for this next connection. The winter connection. The times. How many times a week, the cost arid that type of thing so. Other activities I did list in here are visits from the Chapel Hill Academy...which they met this Monday. They came to sing and they did a game and had brought home made cookies for the seniors. There was 25 people who enjoyed that and the Chanhassen Elementary first grade class is going to come over next Tuesday to sing for about 20 minutes. So we've got a lot of fun things going on and always continue to be busy so, does anyone have questions for me? Franks: Any questions? Comments? Spizale: Looks like you're doing a great job. Franks: Do you want to just let them know you're here. Spizale: I'm here .... concert. First nighter. Always great. It was at the Chart Rec Center. Yep, the acoustics are fantastic. Franks: Looks really good. They don't need a tour director for that Hawaii Cruise do they? Just joking. Great. Well, seeing that there's nothing else, you're offthe hook now so, and we see that Mr. Gregory's taking the hot seat. 22 Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 PARK AND TRAIL MAIN'I'~NANC~ REPORT. Gregory: Good evening. Since I wrote my report and that we've had a little bit of-a change in that. We started out with a great winter and that, it was one of the earlier years for flooding and that. We got started a week ago. We got 3 days in, evenin~ flooding and that and since then it's kind of did a 180 on us and we're shut down. Looked at the weather report late this afternoon and I don't see anything until next week sometime that it's even going to be considering to start flooding again so. We are back at getting a late stsn. Franks: Pushing that frost down. Gregory: We got frost in. We got a great base and everything and that. I mean if we could have kept going like that we would have very easily had rink~ open by this weekend. It wouldn't have been any problem at all, but the way it is right now and that...on the rink.~ to do anything anymore so we're pretty much on hold for that one. And once it gets cold again we'll be out there nights and continue the flooding, so we'll get at it. This year and that the guys, we went out, we did an extensive trimming job on all of our trails. We found a lot of them that needed some trimming and that so we decided to hit every trail in the park, in the.city that runs through where we've got trees, anything. We went through everyone and did an extensive trimming. We ~ them back to the fact that we shouldn't have'to do it for at least 3-4 years and that. I mean we took them back to where we won't have to worry about trucks and. safety and everything else and that anymore so we can get through and plow them so we're in good shape for that. This fall we also, every fall we do an extensive fertilizing program on all of our sports fields to try to keep them up in good shape for the next spring. We aerate .them. Some of them we have to slit seed. This year we took a real hit at Lake Ann on 'Fields 4 and 5. That's' where they have the football for the, I believe the youth is it Jerry? Out there. And we took the real hit. It was a wet time of the year. They played and so it, we've done a lot of extensive repairs out there and we're hoping that everything will come through okay in the spring. We haven't had them this bad before so we may get some'comments come springtime if those two fields aren't in real good condition, but all we can do is see when it starts in the spring and if we can maybe work at it and keep the softball players off until right up to softball times on those two it would help greatly, so we'll monitor them in the spring and see what they look like. We also did, with the assistance of Jill Sinclair over at the city and that, we did an extensive tree planting and that. We had 5 city parks that we planted 125 trees in, and it's going to be a big asset in that they?re really some nice trees. We got a good variety of trees and so we're trying to break up just the maple and ash and everything in the parks and we're trying to get a little bit of'everything and that so. That was a big help from her. And that pretty much took care of our fall. If anybody has any questions. - Franks: I noticed the trimming right away on the trail around lake Susan, and it looks the best I've ever seen it look. Gregory: They all look really good going through the woods and that now I mean, like I say we don't have the safety hazards anymore and they needed it. They really needed it pretty bad. Franks: And my kids were real disappointed. They were talking about getting out on the ice because it looked to them like the ice was going to be ready and I had to explain to them, it's going to be 45 degrees tomorrow. They weren't too happy. Gregory: Over the weekend, it was surprising. North Lotus and several of the parks, we had a lot of people skating on the weekend and that, but it. 23 Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Ruegemer: Was it light, medium or heavy? Franks: Wait, I didn't see anybody on the schedule for that weekend. Gregory: We haven't started that yet so. But like I say, we... Franks: I think that was Amy's weekend. Hoffman: They were skating tonight when I came... Franks: Any other comments? Any other questions for Dale? Well, keep it up. You've got increasingly more to work on. Alright, thank you. That looks like that finishes all the reports. ~ION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. Franks: Are there any commission member committee reports? The only committee we have going right now is the revenue generating committee. Anything to report there? No? Okay. C__QMMISSIQN MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Franks: Any comments On the administrative packet? No? Is this, Todd is this the first year. This isn't the first year that they've rented tennis, or is it? Did they approach the city for that? Hoffman: Yes. Ruegemer: And they have interest in ranting again in 2003. I believe for spring for their, I think girls program. Franks: Is that going to be during the day or are they also going to use evening or? Ruegemer: No, that was primarily that, right after school. 3:00 to 5:00 timeframe, which for the most part did not interfere with any other types of community based recreation. Franks: Ttmt's excellent. I'm wondering if there's, well those types of, could be promoted somehow. I mean if, that might not be the .only organization that .maybe doesn,t know that they can utilize those facilities, or we might be able to offer them to them foJ use, Hoffman: We discussed that in our revenue brainstorming session last Thursday, at the direction of the council and the city manager. I'll talk about that briefly when we go to the correspondence. And one of the items that Jerry and I talked about is coming up with a catalog of the public facilities that we have available that could be rented. Franks: Excellent. Great. And I did count, just to make sure that everybody had 3 times listed on the volunteer rink attendant schedule. Ruegemer: I'm trying to keep it as even as possible. Franks: And my question is, now I thought when I was first reading it that we are supposed to drive around and take a look at all the rinks. 24 Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Ruegemer: That's correct. During that time. Franks: Oh it is? Hoffman: Six ofthem. Franks: Okay. But you want us to, when it's during our day to look at. Ruegemer: To look at all six during those times. Franks: So like at, okay. All six during those times. Ruegemer: So 1:00 Rod, you can pick if you start at Mirm~washta Heights and kind of chart your course. Franks: And do them all. Ruegemer: Right. I was going to include base maps for you guys as well if'you don't know where... Franks: And then are you going to copy out a whole list of these for us too?' Ruegemer: Right.. · Franks: Oh, will you put them ih the mail so we've got enough? Ruegemer: Yep. That was just kind of just a copy of it so you could kind of take. a look at it. .- . . Franks: And we're counting bodies, not skate marks. Ruegemer: That's correct. O'Shea: Not low, medium. Hoffman: People with skates or people with boots? Pranks: I think we should count bodies. Spizale: I agree, yeah. Franks: We don't need to be restrictive about how people are using this ice. Count the bodies. It doesn't matter. So you'll send out enough forms so that will be 6 times the 3 that we're out so. Stolan. I only have one and I need to trade that so if anyone wants to trade 2 for 1, I'd be happy to. I'll take 2 on the weekends but I've got to work that Monday, December 30th so I won't be able to do it. Hoffman: There you go. Stolar: I only have one day, Monday, December 30'~ but I work that day. Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Franks: Well I'll take it. I'm offevery Monday. Stolar: ...e-mail to address this but I'll send out an e-mail saying if someone wants to swap out. The only weekend I can't do it is the 18'~ and 19~. I'm out of town. Ruegemer: Would it be helpful for the commission to have base maps? Would you like me to highlight the individual parks within the system and. Franks: That'd be great. Ruegemer: Do you want me to rank them in order from east to west, north to south7 I can do that. Franks: You know we're just volunteers. We wouldn't figure that typically out on our own. Thanks for including the community center focus group. Any other comments on the administrative packet? Hoffrnan: An additional iten~ Last Thursday for oh an hour or so, staff met with the city manager to talk about revenue producing ideas to present to the City Council last night. The staff identified $40,000 in additional revenue generating ideas that we believe we can come up with... They liked some of the ideas. They liked a majority of the ideas. They didn't like a couple, there were two that they did not like particularly were the idea of putting a $5 ear charge at the Lake Ann fireworks so as you drive in you would pay $5 a car to park at Lake Ann Park during the fireworks. Second one was a $10 per year membership or general fee for the senior center. So their costs associated with operating the senior center like the coffee, supplies and they didn't like that. The ones that they felt comfortable with I believe are punch card increase, which we feel will generate about $15,000 in additional revenue. A general across the board fee increase on all of our recreation programs, which when we printed out the last was somewhere in the 3 to 400's programs, and that's about a $12,000 increase. And those are the biggee's. There were some other areas, smaller items included in there. We had a list and I'll include that in your Sanuary packet, a list of...approximately year is $360,000 currently so that's going to push it up to $400,000. That $400,000 in revenue coming from departments which probably account for about a half a million dollars in expenditures when you come right down to it. So there is increased. discussion at the council level, increased discussion at the commission level about making these things pay for themselves, and so when we take a hard look at our recreation programming and recreation facilities, we're actually doing pretty well. If you take out park maintenance, if you want to start making money on park maintenance and taking care of the trails and parks, then we're going to have a much longer conversation...Lake Ann Park and charge for trail use and, but by and large we're doing fairly well with revenues so we're up from 360 to 400. Those are some pretty good dollars for the organization... The list goes from, the majority of that revenue is generated right at the rex center, so when you talk about priorities at the mc center, well is our priority making money or providing service? The rooms make $16,000 or $18,000 a year and so we give those rooms away all the time. You've heard me say it before, and that's vitally important to this community. Those concerts this evening, those rooms were all filled with free ensembles before they head off and go into the gymnasium and sing. And so if we pack them full, like has been talked about making one a dance studio. Making one an aerobics room, that takes it out of the general use areas of the public so. We also enlisted an additional $60,000 in cuts to our budget. Our general operating budget with the City Council last night, and in general that was in the area of temporary wages, maintenance materials, and maintenance equipment. So that was $100,000 in total that we offered to the City Council. They felt fairly comfortable with 26 Park and Rec Commission - Dece~r 10, 2002 that I think. The action by the council last night concerning the budget was to approve the budget as presented with the exception of cutting $300,000, which had been identified by staff, but the council did not specify where the $300,000 would be cut. They left that up to the d__~cision of the incoming City Council. And then I referenced our changes in capital funding, and I'll include that in your January packet. There were ex~nsive changes in the capital budget, and we're spending Fund 410, the park and trail dedication fund right now into the hundreds of thousands, not the millions, and so the library. $700,000 for the park. 5 ½ of that comes from park dedication. These playground replacements that we talked about With the playgrounds, that's going out. And trail connections. So there's some heavy pressure on the park fund right now. Franks: Is it possible on the library commons, I mean City Center Commons, or is it Library Commons? Hoffnmn: City Center. Franks: City Center Commons. You know the, my understanding is that they'll, from the meeting last night anyway, was that the building's going to come in nnder estimate, or what was budgeted. .. Hoffman: There's a percentage dedicated, about $175,000. Anywhere from 125 Ko 175 of that money dedicated. Franks: And if they don't build the coffee shop, is there any way. . . Stolar: Friends space. Franks: Friends space. The friends space. Is there ways for those funds to be translated into the City Center Commons project or are those like dedicated to specific funds? :' Hoffman: No, there's'always that opportunity. Franks: There is. Hoffman: There is more change orders on future... We don't know where that will... Franks: But it is possible for some of these fun'ds to be, they're not completely dedicated to building or to park7. Hoffman: No. Franks: Okay. Stolan. But then we could potentially, at least make a proposal to City Council to. Hoffman: That's already in the plan. There's dollars coming over from the libraxy referendum to help fund this park, but they're limited right now to about 125 to 175. Franks: Okay. Park and Rec Commission - December 10, 2002 Kelly: I just want to say the 101 North trail, even better from the 101 South trail. I like the way it kind of winds up by the park and then it has a kind of outlook area when you get past Choctaw. I thought it was really, really nice. Hoffman: Take a nm? Kelly: A couple, yes. Spizale: ...this one spot's not connected, right? Hoffrnan: There was a property owner dispute that they did not want to go along with how the project was being proposed to them. The compensation so that property was put under a quick take and the easement, the necessary easements have now been acquired but past the time of construction so it will be finished this spring. Kelly: And that's just at the very end, right? That's on the way to Pleasant View. The last half a block or whatever. Hoffman: Right. Franks: Alright. Seeing that there's no other comments regarding the administrative packet, is there a motion to adjourn? Kelly moved, Spizale seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 28