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CC Minutes 5-11-09 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 upgrade reflects Standards and Poors recognition of the City’s superior financial and debt management practices and policies. Very healthy reserve levels. It also reflects the City’s participation in the Twin Cities economic based, this growing and diverse employment base. It’s above average wealth and income levels and it’s expectations that the City will be able to manage it’s debt levels and sustain it’s strong financial reserves. So it’s almost as good as Lake Wobegon in terms of the things that they’re saying about you but I’d like to just offer this over as a recognition. Mayor Furlong: Thank you very much. Mark Ruff: Congratulations. Mayor Furlong: Do you want to take pictures at this point or? Todd Gerhardt: Yeah if we could. Let’s take a picture and we can have cake afterwards and then we can get Mike done here so he can get off the pins and needles here seeing if he’s going to get a sign or not. The council took a short recess at this point to take a photograph commemorating this event. ARBORETUM TIRE AND AUTO: CONSIDER APPROVAL OF A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO ALLOW AN ELECTRONIC MESSAGE CENTER ON A MONUMENT SIGN AND RECOMMENDATION TO DENY A SIGN VARIANCE FROM THE INDIVIDUAL DIMENSION LETTERING; LOCATED AT 8175 HAZELTINE BOULEVARD. APPLICANT/OWNER: MICHAEL SCHLANGEN. Kate Aanenson: Thank you Mayor, members of the council. As was indicated there’s two applications before you tonight. One is for a conditional use for an electronic message center and the second is a request for a variance from the standards of the sign permit itself. The st Planning Commission held a public hearing on April 21 and voted 4 to 0 to approve the recommended for, approval for the conditional use but denial of the sign variance. This site itself is located on 41 across from the Landscape Arboretum. This site itself was put into a PUD for the Arboretum Business Park. It does meet the standards of the current sign as shown on the location here. On Highway 41. It does meet the sign ordinance except for in 2006 we have required dimensional letters but when this was put in place it was put in with a flat face. In 2006, we’ve always said dimensional letters. There’s a lot of, there was some ambiguity of what exactly dimensional letters were so we clarified that in 2006 and said the half inch and that’s what’s being requested tonight. Not to do the half inch proposal. So currently this sign is out there. Again the request is to do the electronic message center. Looking like this. So you’ve got the reader message area which to scales on the red there, and that meets our current ordinance. And then the rest of the sign meets our ordinance. It does meet the standards as far as the architectural compatibility. There was some discussion about color coordination but really the ordinance addresses the compatibility regarding the structure of the sign. The building itself, let me see if I can go to that. The building itself has the metal trim around the windows and that’s what this is pulling off that character so in our minds it does meet that intent so really then the 13 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 Planning Commission did spend some time talking about whether the Arboretum Tires needs to be red or not but that’s really a proprietary issue. It’s up to how the business owner wants to do it. It’s really talking about the standards itself. So if you go back to the variance for the dimensional letters, it’s really to advertise the name of the business itself and just add some individual interest. If you drove around the city there’s a lot of different application of how this is being done. Some of it’s done going through relief, embossing. Some of it’s actually punched out. There’s a lot of different applications of the half inch relief. So this compliance table then would show you the requirements of the sign and the proposed monument, so you can see in all the requests that are being put forward today, the only portion that doesn’t meet it is the one half inch. Otherwise it is in full compliance. So I’m just going to leave it on that slide there. So if you have any questions I’d be happy to answer those. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Questions for staff at this time. The one question I had Ms. Aanenson, and I think you mentioned it so I’m glad you brought it up because I saw it brought up in the Planning Commission minutes and that is the current monument sign. This is a replacement of a current monument sign, correct? Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. Mayor Furlong: And the current monument sign has the name of the business. I don’t know if you have a picture of the current. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, …to the current. Mayor Furlong: There it is okay. So it’s the name of the business and hours and then a manual message in terms of services. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Mayor Furlong: And they’re looking to replace that with the electronic. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Mayor Furlong: But the Arboretum Tire and Auto, the name of the business, that currently is a flat panel. Kate Aanenson: That is correct and it’s currently flat. Mayor Furlong: He’s requesting a similar type of sign as what he currently has. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Kate Aanenson: Yeah. So it’s consistent with what’s out there today. The flat part of it and it is a changeable copy but today’s changeable copy is probably now considered LED. 14 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 Mayor Furlong: Right. Right, okay. Kate Aanenson: It’s still, back then that was called a state of the art changeable copy. You just had to manually change it. Mayor Furlong: It’s amazing how art has changed. Kate Aanenson: Yes, there you go. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Okay, thank you. Any other questions of staff at this time? Okay. Mr. Schlangen, you’re here. Would you like to address the council as the applicant? Mike Schlangen: Mayor, council members. Hi, my name is Mike Schlangen and what we’re trying to do is just replace this sign with what we have. Try to keep it real similar to what we have and try to keep it looking aesthetically pleasing and easy to clean and just nice and appealing to our customers. Mayor Furlong: Okay. The question I think you mentioned at again the Planning Commission, why not more emphasis on the sign, the name of the business versus the message or the services that you’re trying to advertise. Mike Schlangen: Well we’re not a chain store. We’re not a huge box store or anything else and so our message of services and stuff that we do are very important because people are not going to recognize our name as quickly as they would some of our competitors and it’s really important for us to get our message out as far as what we do for services so they’ll stop in and give us a chance. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright, thank you. Any other questions for Mr. Schlangen? Mr. McDonald. Councilman McDonald: I have a question. What I read in the report is that I guess your feeling is that you did not want the emphasis to the name. You want the emphasis to the services and what you’re looking at is that without the emphasis to the services you feel your business is not going to be what it could be. What exactly do you base that upon? Mike Schlangen: Well I feel that if people see what kind of services that we do, just to give you an example. Somebody would come in for you know have a propane filled 4 or 5 times and they’ll look around and we must have 20-30 stacks of tires sitting there and people will look around and say you sell tires here? People don’t correlate Arboretum Tire and Auto necessarily with all the different services that we do from major mechanical to minor mechanical and all the different things that we’re involved in so with having those messages out there about the different services that we’d offer or hours of operation, those types of things, we’d encourage people to come in and once they come in, we hopefully will be able to maintain their business. Right now probably 90-95 percent of our business is repeat business and we’d hope to 15 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 encourage people to come in from those 20,000 cars a day that go by on 41. Did I answer your question? Councilman McDonald: Yes I believe so. Thank you. Mayor Furlong: Other questions. Councilman Litsey: So your emphasis you said is more on the special that you’re running more or less than it is on just the name recognition. Mike Schlangen: Yes, special services. Hours of operation. Different things that would encourage them to come in and that type of thing. Councilman Litsey: Okay. Mike Schlangen: I think that’s really important for our small business. Councilman Litsey: And you don’t, you’ve got not any, you’re basing it on? I guess too I’m struggling a little bit with the data to support what you’re saying. I trust you believe what you’re saying but I just, I don’t know how you would gather that I guess outside of doing surveys or something to say what caught your eye and what are you looking at so. Mike Schlangen: Well just to give you another example. We probably get 1 or 2 calls a week, you know what kind of trees should I plant with you know this type of thing and. Councilman Litsey: Oh. Have you thought of expanding? Mike Schlangen: That’s a good idea. Mayor Furlong: Arboretum Tire, Auto and Forestry Service. Councilman Litsey: So yeah, the Arboretum is more connected to the actual Arboretum. Mike Schlangen: And we did that for a couple of reasons. Number one, where it would fall in the yellow pages type of thing where we got going. And number two, it’s in the Arboretum Business Park but I really believe that for us the emphasis is more important on the different services that we have, to encourage people to come in and you know, like I said, once we get them in you know then hopefully we can maintain that. Councilman Litsey: Thanks. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other questions for Mr. Schlangen? Councilwoman Tjornhom. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yeah, I think I have a couple questions. Obviously you need the sign that you’re putting in, it’s the future. It’s what most businesses are going to have. I think it’s 16 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 going to look attractive to be honest with you compared to what is along there now and it will look far more attractive, Holiday don’t listen to what I’m saying but compared to what the Holiday sign looks like, which is right next to you. You know I think you’re adding to the signage on the street and the looks of it all but tell me, or tell the council how it is, or if it over burdensome regarding the lettering requirement. And you know can you go into that a little bit more detail for me about that. Mike Schlangen: I think burdensome, if burdensome, it’s a couple things. Number one is cost. When you make a special sign like that, if you’re a chain store you make one mold and you pay for that mold and you can make 1,000 signs or you can make 1 sign. A big part of that cost is your initial mold to make the sign and that’s a you know, part of the cost. Part of it. The other thing is the cleanliness of it. The cleaning. I think it looks more aesthetically appealing if you can go out there a couple times a year and clean up. Get it nice and clean instead of you know having the indentations, because from what I understood from the planning commission is that you, we could indent the letters as well as have them out, is that correct? Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. Mike Schlangen: And so to me it looks, it doesn’t look as good with the dirt and grime and stuff that builds up over time. Councilwoman Tjornhom: And indenting would probably be just as costly as raised letters? Mike Schlangen: Exactly. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Compared to flat. Mike Schlangen: Exactly. Councilwoman Tjornhom: I think for now, I’ll probably have some more questions or thoughts later. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Councilwoman Tjornhom: But, and I guess this is for Kate. I always do this, they come up and talk and then I ask Kate questions but how strict is our ordinance right now when it comes to raised or letters and lettering? Kate Aanenson: Sure. As I indicated we had before, there needed to be relief and as the city attorney tell us you’re not specific and so we had, was hard to articulate. Sometimes it was, I know I was asked if all the businesses down there in the Arboretum Business Park have it. Yes. Some of it’s probably less than a quarter of an inch, but if you look in the downtown core there’s all different variations of, if you look at the Goddard School. Chapel Hill Academy. Even the Legion site. Some of those are embossed, imbedded into the sign and I think it makes it really nice. I think the goal here is just to have, to make it appealing and in this circumstance because it’s over the top of a, the lit part of it, and you know, but having said that. If you look at Chapel 17 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 Hills as a really nice indented relief so whether it’s embossed or it does look very nice. It’s an aesthetic quality but their’s is a little bit smaller just as Chapel Hill, this has a little bit more language on there and visual character with the tire. Just make sure you don’t get tree calls so. So that’s another goal you know. Really it’s just an architectural feature, and the Planning Commission has discussed this and you’ll be seeing some of that as we move forward too but if you look at 1 percent of the sign that is, again even the Goddard School their logo is kind of, it’s embossed so just all different types of applications. So what we were trying to clarify in 2006 is just to say it needs to be at least a half inch because it’s sometimes it appeared like there wasn’t any relief to it at all. And Holiday does have some relief. It’s out there. We went back and checked all those so there are older signs in town that don’t meet the standards at all. Those are all prior to the ordinance, prior to 2000. So we do try to work with them and see what meets their needs and I guess that’s the goal too. How they see their logo and their trademark. Councilwoman Tjornhom: And I think that’s important that you brought up that Chapel Hill has you know a very nice sign. But they are located in a residential neighborhood you know and I think this business is located along Highway 41 and so it’s not necessarily as residential as other places where signs aren’t going to be displayed are so I think that needs to be considered also. It’s location and the business I guess too and I think it is a marked improvement. I mean I think it’s a beautiful sign so you know I don’t know if it’s reasonable always to add on extra costs or burden for a raised letter if the sign is aesthetically pleasing and in the right location for such a sign. Councilman McDonald: If I could just kind of add onto that a little bit. When we did the Holiday sign I did go out to the area and so I am familiar with it and you had it within your I think application about the time that people have to actually see the sign and focus on stuff so what got me was, you’re right. You need, if you want to sell service, you have to draw attention to what it is you want to sell and you’ve made the decision you want to sell services, and again in passing down 41, either going north or south because of the topography, there is a very limited time window I think for anyone driving on that road to focus on something and if what you’re telling us is you want them to focus on the services, then your argument carries a little bit more weight with me and I guess what I’m wrestling with is again the ordinance. I understand the purpose of it but I also you know again looking at this particular situation of where you’re at, I can see that well yeah, you maybe don’t want them to focus so much. You don’t want their attention drawn to your name which is what we’re trying to do by our ordinance. You do want it drawn to whatever service you’re trying to sell so that’s what I’m struggling with in all of this is that yes, in this location I think he is right as far as how much time you have to see the sign because as you come over the hill or you’re going up the hill, there’s very little time to focus and the speed limit up there is 55 at that point so people are going fairly quickly. So I think that also adds a little bit of weight to your argument but I’ll wait to hear what the rest of the council has to say on this but as I stated earlier tonight, I’m open. I’m really struggling with this. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Any other questions for Mr. Schlangen at this point? Councilwoman Ernst: Kate. Mayor Furlong: Oh, I’m sorry. 18 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 Councilwoman Ernst: Kate, when we’re talking about the sign the emphasis really has been for the most part for these variances that have come before City Council, have usually been on the sign itself. The color of the sign. The location of the sign and I know that he’s asking, it’s like our emphasis has been on the sign, not so much the lettering. But in this case when we’re talking, I agree with some of the comments that have been made where his emphasis is really on the service. The lettering on the sign and just to speak to your, and just so I understand what you’re saying. So you’re saying that there are variations in the city today to lettering correct? Kate Aanenson: Right. I mean the older, well we’ve always had relief. That’s always been a requirement. And in 2006 we clarified the definition of relief meant at least a half inch and so we, so there are some with less relief. Councilwoman Ernst: Okay. Kate Aanenson: Than a half inch. So the goal is just to provide for articulation and enhance quality of just a straight, just for example the same reason we moved away from putting box panels on walls. We go to individual channels. A little bit nicer look. Architectural and same reason we kind of moved to a different grade, and that was really the intent of that. A little bit higher architecture. Councilwoman Ernst: So has there ever been, I guess this is the first time I’ve ever heard this where we talk about the cleanliness of the sign. Is that something that we’ve looked at? Is there really any factors that are built into that? I guess it’s the first time I’ve heard this. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, and we’ve got other signs along highways. Highway 5 for example we have quite a few. U.S. Bank. Some of those along Highway 5 so I’m assuming that most, we haven’t had complaints if that’s, yeah. So I can see that might be you know an issue for somebody but we don’t get complaints on that. That it’s onerous on that regard. Councilwoman Ernst: Okay. Mike Schlangen: More of an aesthetic appeal and some people like a Chevy. Some people like a Ford but you know it’s more of what you like you know as far as that’s concerned. And I want the sign to look nice. I want the building to look nice. I think you know hearing some of these things tonight that I heard living in Chanhassen and having a business in Chanhassen, it’s pretty cool to realize that our financial shape is really good and our water quality is really good and everybody’s taking care of that and the same thing with the small business. You take care of it. You want to make it look as good as possible. I don’t want to put up a sign that isn’t good for me or isn’t good for the city as well. Councilwoman Ernst: Okay. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Anything else Mr. Schlangen? Thank you. Appreciate your comments. Any follow up questions? For staff. I guess one that I have. Maybe it’ll come out in discussion but again it gets back to the issue of the current sign is a. 19 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 Kate Aanenson: Yep. Yes. Mayor Furlong: He’s asking for basically in terms of the sign make-up, there’s a changeable message and then there’s the name of the business. And it’s the same material, same design. Kate Aanenson: Right, and I guess if you were leaning towards a variance, my recommendation is, because the Planning Commission is studying this right now. Not to say, it kind of goes back to that consistency model that we’ve talked about is if your rational basis is to say that he’s had a flat sign for a number of years. He’s been out there for a number of years, that’s kind of been his design standard. That he stay within that as opposed to, and making it specific to this site as opposed to saying, giving the variance for flat signs overall because I think you’re going to be seeing some additional information on that as we bring that forward to you. So maybe make it a specifically for this project because he has a flat sign. Mayor Furlong: My thought is I would agree with that. That we’re dealing with this specific issue. This specific request and not, not necessarily, because the overall signage issues, we make changes to that on a periodic basis. You mentioned 2006. We made some I think this last year. But those go through the process and it’s a culmination of a lot of effort and information so I wouldn’t necessarily be saying, you know looking at a recommendation as a broad recommendation but it’s more considering the specifics in this case as we understand it and I would agree with that from a process standpoint. Great. Let’s bring it back to council then for thoughts and discussion. Councilwoman Tjornhom. Councilwoman Tjornhom: You know I guess I’m kind of trying to keep this simple because I think it is a simple issue, instead of making it more complex than it needs to be. I think Arboretum Tire is trying to just change the way they relay their message to the public as they drive by. The sign’s already there. It’s been there. It was approved and so I think they’re just trying to relay their message probably in a cleaner way. A cleaner, neater, more uniformed way and I think more aesthetically pleasing to the public as they drive by and so I don’t know if it is in, if I feel it’s fair to be over burdensome by adding extra cost onto a sign that already fits in with the area and location and the businesses that are around it and so I am more than willing to go ahead and approve the sign and the variance to allow the sign to, or to allow the lettering to be flat and not have to be raised for his name and business. Service. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Other thoughts. Comments. Councilwoman Ernst. Councilwoman Ernst: Well in hearing both sides I really, based on what I’ve heard, I mean I agree. I think that he just, the sign is very attractive and I think with some of the things that you want to do with the lettering really are, even make it more attractive and I agree with Councilwoman Tjornhom. I think that you know to add cost for revising the lettering based on what he’s proposing I think is, I guess I would say, I wouldn’t call it unreasonable but I think it would be just more satisfactory I guess to really go with the lettering as he’s proposed so I would be in favor of supporting the lettering as well with the sign. With the variance. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Councilman Litsey. 20 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 Councilman Litsey: It’s already been said. I mean I think we can keep this fairly simple and specific to the sign in terms of, I look at it as kind of an upgrade of this sign with current technology in terms of the electronic messaging there. It’s not deviating from what was already there. It’s just upgrading or updating or whatever you want to call it so I think if I just keep it within that context I’m comfortable with granting it. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Mr. McDonald. Councilman McDonald: Well I’ll tell you what, you mentioned something and it triggered a memory. Last year we had another company that came in here and they got the signs that they wanted at the time because they were older signs. The storage, Nick’s Storage World I guess. And that was to that location. That was not a blanket variance that would have affected anything else. Since this sign has been here and we all agree, it is an upgrade over what’s currently there so it does improve I think the vision and everything. I mean based upon that and the fact that we don’t have to say that this is a blanket variance across any electronic signs or anything, I’d be in favor of allowing both the variance and the other part too so. Mayor Furlong: Conditional use permit. Councilman McDonald: Conditional use permit. Mayor Furlong: Okay, very good. Thank you. Kate Aanenson: Mayor if I may. Mayor Furlong: Yep. Kate Aanenson: Anticipating that you may have a different motion I did prepare revised Findings of Fact and also reflected your rationale basis for that on page 4 that would say that because the sign’s existing. Mayor Furlong: It’s an upgrade of an existing sign. Kate Aanenson: Yeah. And it’s the fact that the sign was flat panel, it’s going to remain flat panel so I did change those. Mayor Furlong: Very good. My sentiments are very similar and focusing on the simple issue that we are, as was just mentioned, we’re upgrading an existing sign in terms of elements of it. In terms of the message. Even the panel that we’re discussing. That’s a variance request. I think I agree is an upgrade as well and you know especially in this economy to see a local business owner reinvesting back into their business and trying to increase their service levels and service offerings is something that I think the council should support and so I’m very much in favor of approving the conditional use permit with the changes as well as granting the variance for this specific issue based upon the comments made and the Findings of Fact that have been described. 21 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 Kate Aanenson: There is a motion on page 5. A revised motion. Mayor Furlong: Okay. On page 5 of the what you just distributed? Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Is that for the entire. Kate Aanenson: That’s for the entire. Mayor Furlong: That’s the vote, okay. Thank you. Would somebody like to make a motion if there’s no further discussion? Councilwoman Ernst. Councilwoman Ernst: I make a motion that we approve Planning Case 09-04 for a conditional use permit for an electronic message center and approval of the sign variance request. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second? Councilman McDonald: I’ll second. Mayor Furlong: Made and seconded. Any discussion on that motion? Councilman McDonald: I have one question. We are going to make this unique to this particular area. Does this motion I guess convey that? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Mayor Furlong: And I’d defer to staff. Kate Aanenson: If I may. Yeah, if I may. On page 4 on the Findings of Fact it specifically states that because this is along Highway 41 and that the existing panel is flat panel so that would be the basis for that. It’s specific to this site. Councilman Litsey: Under number 5(a)? Kate Aanenson: Yeah, 5(a). And then under the finding. Councilman Litsey: And in the finding. Kate Aanenson: You have to read the finding that goes with it. Councilwoman Ernst: So it’s actually covered in the motion then. Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. In the findings. Because you’re adopting the findings with the motion. 22 City Council Meeting - May 11, 2009 Mayor Furlong: Based upon the Findings of Fact. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council members. This refers to the Planning Commission so Councilwoman Ernst’s motion is fine but we’re going to have to word smith this, switching from Planning Commission to City Council. Kate Aanenson: Oh I’m sorry. I thought I had covered that. I thought I made the changes. Todd Gerhardt: So if you go to the signature page, it says Planning Commission. Mayor Furlong: We will modify that appropriately. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah. Have the minutes note that this will, the original will be changed to read City Council. Mayor Furlong: Very good. Thank you. Any other discussion? Councilwoman Ernst moved, Councilman McDonald seconded that the City Council approve Planning Case 09-04 for a conditional use permit for an electronic message center and approval of the sign variance request and adopt the revised Findings of Fact. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: Councilman McDonald: I have something. I, you know was asking questions earlier about the watershed district. The reason why is that I did attend the watershed district meeting last week and I guess I have to say that I learned quite a bit and they are approaching the issue of clean water differently from what we as a council are doing. Again they’re looking at more the scientific reasons of what causes the problems within our water and the answer is carp, which we’ve had a couple of harvests for and everything but I learned quite a bit about the migration of carp between Lake Riley, through the watershed. All of this and that it’s a very scientific reasoning to go into but I found it very interesting and during a break I had a lot of residents come up to me because I was wearing my little City Council name tag and they are very concerned about all of this so it is a big issue with the residents of our city and that’s part of the reason I was asking the questions because what I took away from that was that the residents feel that yes, we do need to have clean water and clear lakes and I think that since the watershed district does quite a bit of this from an area that maybe we don’t approach, I think there should be more coordination and I did get the feeling from the watershed district they would like to do a little bit more of that too so I just wanted to bring that message you know back to the council that they are doing some very interesting work you know to address the issues of clarity within the water that really have nothing to do with runoff. It has to do with the natural environment within the lake itself, so I think it is a combination of things that clean our waters within the city and we can use all the help that we can get, just as I’m sure they can use all the help that they can get so I would encourage both governmental bodies to probably work a little bit closer together. I’m not quite sure what that mechanism is. I’m glad that Terry sits on the board and at least we have 23