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PRC 1996 08 27CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 27, 1996 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Fred Berg, Ron Roeser, Jim Manders, Jane Meger, Mike Howe, and Frank Scott STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor; and Patty Dexter, Recreation Supervisor APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Lash: Are there any changes by any commissioners or staff'? Hoffman: Other than a note that I received an item on the Recreation Center fees for the park pavilion building... A note on the top, this item will be added to tonight's agenda... Lash: Okay. Can we just add that to the end? Hoffman: Yes. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Hoffman: Chairwoman Lash and Commission, I'm aware of one. Mr. Scott Hollrah of 2450 Bridle Creek Road would like to talk about Rollerblading in the community of Chanhassen. He has some representatives with him here this evening and with that I'll let Scott explain what they're interested in. Scott Hollrah: My name is Scott Hollrah. Me and most of these guys over here, we all like to skate a couple times a week. We'd like to do it in town. We've had problems recently with places kicking us out. They don't want us skating there and that's understandable. And we all wanted someplace that we can go and skate without getting into trouble and you know skating, it's a positive activity. People look at it as being negative but it really isn't. A skate park would give us a place for people to go during the summer. Keep out of trouble. I brought a video of a skate park in Dallas and this would be something we kind of, kind of the things that we'd want to put up here in Chanhassen. Maybe not quite so elaborate as this one but something similar. A video was shown at this point. Lash: Scott, is this a private or a public facility? Scott Hollrah: This is a private facility in Dallas. They have charged, let's see the first time, I've been here 3 or 4 times. There have been charged is the first time it's like $15.00. The second Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 time it's $9.00 and then after that you pay.., next four times it'd be $9.00 and then after that you pay $5.00 to skate. Depending on... open to the public. Howe: Have you been up to Roseville? Have you seen the Roseville oval? Scott Hollrah: I have not been up there. We were actually going to try to get out there today but they're closed right now. They're re-doing some of their equipment. Howe: They're building something like this. Not on this kind of scale. I don't know what the costs are but it's a very nice facility. I've been impressed with it. I know that's a drive for you but. Scott Hollrah: Yeah, yeah. We were actually going to, we had all planned on going out there today. Actually Josh back here, he's been out to the Rose several times. Josh Peters: My name is Josh Peters. I'm from Chaska. Yeah, I've been out to the Rose a couple of times. It's, the first time I was out there it wasn't what I had really expected. They were planning, I know the guys that are building the city park next to here, they were planning on having it this year. As of, well somebody took over.., this year. They hired.., with the town of Eden Prairie to run, you know set up a skate park and they had some difficulties this year. I guess agreeing.. I guess Roseville pulled them off of it but I guess they had some difficulties just agreeing on... getting a permanent facility there. Next year I guess they're going to have a lot of stuff out there. And we've been out there I guess so it's yeah, a totally smooth facility. It's nice. It gives opportunities to anybody that's got hockey. It's got an indoor hockey rink. Speed skating. I mean you can just.., and it's all right next to the Roseville civic center where the boys and girls play hockey and I think that it could be, I thought it was okay but it wasn't worth the money. I paid $6.00 to get in and it really wasn't the worth the money for what I thought. I mean what you just saw I think would be worth the money. I'd be glad to pay to $15.00 or maybe even $20.00 to skate in something like that because it's, I mean I skate real well but I don't skate to gain.., or anything and I don't know, it's just the way. Not all of us here, I mean not all of us want to play baseball or play soccer. That doesn't mean I'm interested in other sports but I came to think that once I found out about this... I didn't play hockey as a kid but I had a strong skating basis so I just started doing this once I found out there got to be a market for it and now I just skate for fun of it. I skate on Chaska ice. Scott Hollrah: And another thing, the aggressive skating which is what this is called. It's really picking up. Last year the industry itself was supposed to sell about a million and a half dollars worth of stufl~ This year, I don't know, maybe it was more than a million but this year.., it's expected to do well over a billion dollars so this is really picking up. Josh Peters: Yeah, and you've got like, well they have the X Games. I don't know if anybody might have seen on ESPN... but ESPN has got kind of just a game like the Olympic Games for extreme sports. That's guys who are doing inline skating, BMX bikes. BMX biking. Skateboarding. Sky surfing, which is like snowboarding from 10,000 feet in the air. And I mean and then it is a tour, which travels around to different cities like mostly in California but it first 2 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 goes to California and then it travels to New York, Chicago, I think Miami. It goes to Miami and then there's another tour called ESA Tour which goes to, they live in Texas and all the world. Actually that's now a world tour. They go to Germany and Australia and I think. Scott Hollrah: I don't know what your concerns are about this. I know that in the past liability has been a concern but really what's going to protect ifa kid goes and falls on a slide on a playground. You know it's still a public facility and. Manders: I guess a question about the use. Is there much of a difference between inline skating or skateboarding? Scott Hollrah: No. They're doing the same kind of stuff2 The equipment would be used for BMX, skateboarding. Manders: I guess what I'm thinking is in terms of some of the facilities that we have now for inline skating in the summertime with the old hockey rinks. How that might oflket some of this need. Scott Hollrah: Well that's the inline hockey group. That's hockey. I mean I do play inline hockey a little bit too. Yeah, that's over by the Bluff Creek Elementary, is that what you're saying next year I guess. It wasn't ready for this year. Maybe it is now but yeah. Lash: Well is it possible just to, this is an indoor facility. Would it be possible just to build some ramps and things like that and put them in the hockey rink in City Center for the summer? Josh Peters: Yeah, that's. Lash: I mean you know, liability is a big issue but money's a really big issue. We don't have the land or the money to build some kind of a thing like that for public use. I can see a private company possibly doing it but it'd be nice if we could set up some kind of ramps if we could get past the liability. Hoffman: Scott and I talked about that. First I'd like to congratulate them for keeping their promise on coming in this evening and talking to you. We met on the front steps I think it was last Tuesday or Wednesday, and we talked about the new inline skating rinks and that's really not what they're into. They'd like to see some ramps and to do that, what I'm familiar with in family activities and neighborhood activities and these driveway ramps are a big thing... So I asked Scott to kind of define his request and I think Jan you're getting to that. What they're looking for is some kind of alternative recreational choices other than just inline skating hockey. And you can manage the recreation center so you have one rink. That type of thing.., skating and hockey, if you wanted to look into that. Lash: How difficult would that be to do? Could that be a winter project for some park staff'? Or can it be an Eagle Scout project? Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Hoffman: Yeah, I'd be glad to do a report on it. Check out liability costs. Howe: You guys would pay to use this? Like buy a ticket. You'd pay? Scott Hollrah: Oh yeah. Also if funding, if that's a problem I was thinking you know, we could have competitions. Local people from around the Twin Cities and come.., help kind of get things going to pay for the equipment costs. Josh Peters: Another thing I found out the liability on skaters, skateboarders that just moved here from Wisconsin. In Oshkosh, Wisconsin they have an outdoor skate park. It's not like a huge one but this is just, I'm just giving my opinion. I think what they did is, all they did, it's not really big and it doesn't have a lot of huge things but it has, the only liability it has is a skate at your own risk sign and it seems to have worked at Oshkosh. I mean it's not... Chanhassen but it's worked fine. They haven't had any lawsuits. Well not that I know of. Scott Hollrah: At most skate parks they have you sign a waiver.., if anything happens to you. Hoffman: Thanks for coming in Scott. Anyone want to make any other comments? Berg: I have a couple of quick comments. Can I ask a question? Hoffman: You bet. Berg: You guys have any idea what the age range is that would be using this? Scott Hollrah: All the way from 13 to about 24. There's a lot of interest, actually a little younger than that. I've seen 9, 10, 11 year olds. Berg: Male and female? Scott Hollrah: Yeah. Josh Peters: Female's picking up. Scott Hollrah: Yeah, females are really starting to get into it... Lash: Well thanks for coming in. Todd will do a little investigating. Get back to us and Scott, could you be kind of the communicator so if we talk about it, Todd could let you know where we're at and what we're going to do about it and you can communicate to your fellow skaters.? Scott Hollrah: Okay. Lash: Thanks. Howe: Todd, check with Roseville. They're building one of these. They're doing it. 4 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Lash: Okay, we'll move on. Are there any other visitor presentations? Jim Hofer: I'm Jim Hofer. 7098 Red Cedar Cove. I have a letter to the Commission. I'd like to read it. As a member of the Minnewashta Round House Park Focus Team I helped create the recommendations that are being placed before you tonight. As a also close neighbor, Red Cedar Cove, of the proposed park, I encourage you to modify your recommendations. The proposed lighted hockey/inline skate rink is the last thing this neighborhood needs. There are several established rinks within a couple miles of the proposed park. Cathcart, the new recreation center and downtown all have existing hockey rinks. This park addition will ruin the... I would much rather see empty space, grass or even weeds than a lights and fence.., hockey rink. In addition the proposal would allow overflow parking on Kings Road was not approved at the focus team meeting. The only comments concerning parking were about limiting parking availability and not allowing public parking on Kings Road. Neighborhood parks should not require overflow parking. The... parking area and on street parking encourage.., should be discouraged with a small park. The regional park on Highway 41 should be where people are encouraged to go and not Minnewashta... taking into account the existing environment that you.., on your visit this evening.., how that would be destroyed with an almost professional hockey facility and near.., parking. A neighborhood park does not need to be jammed full of amenities. It would be more enjoyable as an open area for families to meet and enjoy.., activities. Lash: Thank you. We'll continue on with this discussion in just a minute. Do we have, thank you. The first item on our agenda is approval of the summary of Minutes dated July 23rd. Is there a motion? Are there any corrections or deletions? Is there a motion to approve? Berg moved, Scott seconded to approve the sunnnary Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated July 23, 1996 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. RECEIVE RECOMMENDATION OF NEIGHBORHOOD FOCUS GROUP~ MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY/KINGS ROAD PARKLAND. Public Present: Name Address Jon Fogelberg Art Allerman Margaret Parsons Dorothy Downing Dave Headla Larry & Nancy Wenzel Jim Hofer Debbie Rude Lisa Braff 3821 Red Cedar Point 3821 Red Cedar Point 3732 Red Cedar Point 7200 Juniper Road 6870 Minnewashta Parkway 6900 Minnewashta Parkway 7098 Red Cedar Cove 4080 Lake Ridge Road 7410 Minnewashta Parkway Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Roy Bredholt Jr. Peter Moe Janet Carlson Craig Anderson Joe Epping Don Roper Patty Tauscher Greg Dattilo Tom Paradise Michael M. Clark 7386 Ridgehill Road 7161 Minnewashta Parkway 4141 Kings Road 7507 West 77th Street 7508 West 77th Street 7509 West 77th Street 4000 Lakeridge Road 7201 Juniper Avenue 3755 Red Cedar Point Road 3841 Red Cedar Point Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: Are there questions or comments for staff'? Okay, we'll open this up for comments. Larry Wenzel: Larry Wenzel, 6900 Minnewashta Parkway. We border the north side of the park and unlike my good friend Jim Hofer, I don't mind a hockey rink. I'll probably be one of the few guys on Social Security down there hacking it up with 5 year olds. I do think though that we've got some major consideration and thinking to do though in respect to the lake front usage and that is how the little people get from Point A to Point B without getting run over. For myself, getting the mail every day and crossing the road, I know how fast those cars come. And I've had cars have to switch from the right hand lane and the left hand lane, heading north up towards Highway 7 from Highway 5 because I'm crossing and don't have time to either retreat or make it across that road. One of my 3 or 4 year old grand kids isn't going to have the same kind of reactions that I'm going to have trying to cross that road getting to the beach, and they're not focused. They're not thinking about that. They're running for the water or running for the car and some poor old guy coming or some young kid that hasn't had a lot of experience or doesn't know that it's there, we're looking for a problem. When that problem happens the thing is that they're going to be at our house, banging on our door to call 911 because it's their youngster that's hit. And I think you've got to think about that. I think what we're got to do, I'm in favor of the beach and I'm in favor of the pier but I think it's, we've got to figure out a way to protect those people getting across that road, whether it's fencing. Whether it's stop lights. Whether it's an overhead bridge. Whatever it is to protect those people because you're going to have a problem. I think you've got to look at that real hard. Roeser: What's the speed limit on that? Larry Wenzel: 30. And the surveys say that the average speed is something like 29. But if you live there, there are a lot of them that go a whole hell of a lot faster than that. And they come screeching around pretty good sometimes. And that's an area where you've got some tums and some visibility problems because of the trees. Berg: Well two things. What about the possibility of a warning sign, like a flashing sign saying pedestrian crossing? So first of all so people aren't, people are aware that there's something 6 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 coming up. And is it reasonable to assume that ifa 3 or 4 year old is going to be going to the beach, that they're going to be accompanied by an adult to help. Larry Wenzel: Number one, anything you do, whether it's flashing lights or anything is a positive. Number two, my tummy tells me that a 3 year old with a mother is heading for the water or heading for the car, and mother might or might not be busy and I'm not, you know I don't want to risk that. I don't want her coming up to my house and screaming that she needs help because she had a problem and couldn't watch. And it's not fair. It's not fair to us to make that decision. We've got to figure out how to do it right and that's the key thing and that's all I have. Lash: Okay. Thanks Larry. Any other public comments? Peter Moe: My name is Peter Moe. I live at 7161 Minnewashta Parkway. I was a member of the park focus group but was unable to attend the last meeting because I was on vacation but I'd like to speak. I am strongly in favor of a beach. There's a number of people that live along Minnewashta Parkway that don't have lake access currently and it's not reasonable to use the beach at the other park on the other side of the lake because kids cannot go there on bikes. It's state highways to get there. The safety issue is certainly our concern. That's why the group decided to hire to have a traffic survey done. There is a crosswalk there. I think the parents should be responsible for their kids. The kids are crossing streets to get to nearly every park in the city, and I'm not saying that's not an important issue but parents need to be responsible. Swimming is a dangerous issue by itself. Parents shouldn't let their kids swim unless they're watching or they're old enough to take care of themselves too and have lessons and things... everyone swims. It's a good family activity. It's a nice sandy area there. I've sxvum there since the city has owned the property and I think it's a really something that should be added. I would like also to read a letter from one of my neighbors who wasn't able to come. Arlene Herman at 3750 Red Cedar Point Drive. Please accept this letter as my family's support of the proposed public swimming beach and park on Minnewashta Parkway. As 8 year residents of the area, we have long enjoyed the area while at the same time.., missing the enjoyment that access to the lake that many of our lakefront neighbors enjoy. It would be difficult to stress the degree from which we are felt.., such access. While neighbors have at times invited us to use their lakefront, I strongly support the proposal so that my children and I can visit the beach at will in full enjoyment for the short summer season. Also the proposed ice skating rink and round house would be greatly appreciated and often utilized by us as well. We're very excited about these additions to our area and strongly recommend passage of these proposals. Lash: Thank you. Any other comments? Jon Fogelberg: My name is Jon Fogelberg, 3821 Red Cedar Point. I'm in favor of the swimming beach. We don't have any lake access and I like to swim. It'd be nice to have a place to swim. Lash: Thank you. 7 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Nancy Wenzel: I'm Nancy Wenzel, also next to the park. I have been, well first I'd like to point out that after reading the survey it was fairly obvious that the most controversial item on the survey was the swimming beach. We have a lot of people in favor of it, but there were a lot of comments, a good number of them concerned with the safety. I have taken it upon myself to check into problems that Waconia's had in the past. I don't know how many... I know that at one point it was so bad that they actually barricaded the road. Then the next year they had so many complaints about the barricade, that they had to take that out.., a stop sign that is similar to a railroad stop sign. It's kind of fluorescent and also a flashing light on top of that. Now this road doesn't even have an intersection. It's just a straight road. We don't have the traffic maybe on such a scale that they do but I think we're creating the same problem. And I would like to try and look into this a little more before we make a decision on the beach. I'm not saying don't have the beach. I'm just saying let's be careful. Lash: Can you just get a little more specific about what some of the problems are that they're having. Nancy Wenzel: In Waconia? Lash: Yes. Nancy Wenzel: I can't. Up to this point I've only gone through newspaper files. I haven't talked with the park people or the County... but I intend to do that. Lash: Okay. Roeser: But you must remember, that's Waconia city beach too. It's not a neighborhood beach, right? It's for the entire town. Nancy Wenzel: I think it's Carver County isn't it? Roeser: Yes, which draws a lot more people than a neighborhood beach would on Minnewashta. Nancy Wenzel: I've been by there several times lately and I haven't seen that number of people there. But I do know that they have had problems there. That we're creating the same situation on Minnewashta Parkway on a smaller scale. And your speed limit also is not fast. So I just think we need to be careful. Lash: Thank you. Art Allerman: My name is Art Allerman and I live at 3821 Red Cedar Point. I'm in favor of the beach. I've lived in this area for about 30 years. I used to swim at the beach at the resort when it was there. For the last 10 years I've not been able to swim in the lake because I'm not going to go way across the way to the swimming beach so I'm in favor of the beach. I do agree with the safety issues but I know that things can be done to get this thing accomplished, and I think we need it out there. Thank you. 8 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Lash: Thank you. Craig Anderson: Hi, I'm Craig Anderson. I live at 7507 77th Street. I've got a couple of comments regarding first of all the neighborhood. We were not aware of the process on the park to begin with. We were somehow neglected from the list. I am in favor of the beach also. We have a lot of little kids in our neighborhood and they are in need of a place to swim and the beach would be good. A suggestion as far as safety goes. Since our summer is about 3 weeks long, maybe there could be a temporary kind of safety devices that could be up during the swimming season and then taken down in the off season. Thank you. Lash: I do have a mailing list of all the people who received or were mailed information and it does appear to me that your neighborhood was on the list. Craig Anderson: We received the information for the meeting of August 5th. That was the first... Lash: Okay. Thank you. Jim Hofer: Jim Hofer, 7098 Red Cedar Cove. I was at the focus group meeting in August and there were a number of comments brought up, not just negative but also positive but some of the concerns were the size of the area. We're talking about a neighborhood beach but we all know that a neighborhood beach will draw people from outside the neighborhood. There have been problems with other beaches. Waconia was mentioned. I know that the City Council has had complaints from neighbors about the Lotus Lake beach. Currently if people do swim atthe site of the new Minnewashta Park, even though it's not a beach, there are people, neighbors who do swim there. And I think the closest neighbors have a lot of concern about the beach and the focus group did agree to take a look through a majority vote. So at this point I think that that should be accepted and let the focus team get on with further discussion about the beach, even though there seems to be some interest in moving ahead with that at this point. Lash: Thank you. Roy Bredholt: Hi. I'm Roy Bredholt. I'm at 7386 Ridgehill Road and I simply wanted to come tonight and tell you that my family and I are very much in favor of the beach. I have young children, ages 4 and 7 and we would go up the parkway, use the beach.., probably use the beach as much as any other aspect of the proposed park and we would very much like to have it. I also have a letter from my neighbors across the street. Peter and Delores Jacobson at 4040 Lake Ridge Road. They say, to whom it may concern. We were pleased to hear that the City of Chanhassen is committed to establishing a small park on Minnewashta Parkway near our new home. If possible we would very much appreciate it if the park could include a small beach on Lake Minnewashta where our children could go and swim. We would be glad to walk to the new park. Perhaps the City could control access by limiting the number of parking spaces or even forbidding parking. Such a restriction should reassure homeowners rightfully concerned any change in this beautiful area. Sincerely yours, Peter R. Jacobson and Delores G. Jacobson. Thank you very much. 9 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Lash: Thank you. Debbie Rude: Good evening. My name is Debbie Rude and I'm probably one of the least... people here tonight. I'm at 4080 Lake Ridge Road in the Highlands development. I'm here tonight to voice my support for not only the park but also the beach. But my primary comment really has probably more to do with us new homeowners quickly approaching that area. As most of you are aware, parks development is obviously growing but so is the development behind Kings Road and I believe there will be something like 80 plus homes going up in the very near future. My anticipation would be those people will also have children and be able to utilize it, probably support the park. But as I see in the very brief time that I've had to look at the memos and to really ask some of the things that have gone on the last year, I see a cross list problem in communicating with not only the folks who have been in the community for a while, but for the folks coming into the neighborhood. As an example I was just approached this morning at the doorstep with a flier that had been circulated that there would be a vote tonight on this .... only two publications that came out from the office. I didn't feel prepared to come unless I spent the afternoon making some phone calls and trying to get some history on the issues so I could come and speak intelligently about this. Unfortunately that's the way it goes in trying to keep up with issues and trying to communicate to everyone. I realize that people are going to be missed. However, something so important that includes something so important as our children, their activities, and the aesthetics of our neighborhood, perhaps we need to take, as has been mentioned, a little more time and a lot less move it along and continue. I think that these issues are important. I would be in favor of holding off doing anything until everybody, or a majority felt more comfortable.., safety issues and would hope that we do more to get information, like this packet tonight should have been distributed.., to the 46 that were missed. The others that received them. And those that are moving in, because I didn't appreciate having my afternoon turned upside down but... Thank you. Lash: Would you like to address that comment quickly. Hoffman: Yes I would. First of all to back up. I do apologize for the error in the original mailing that went out, which distributed the survey. The City of Chanhassen is in between technology... way in performing mailing lists on a GIS... Craig and Vicky Anderson were included on the July 24th mailing, which I asked them to accept my apologies for the error in the first mailing at 7507 77th Street but they should have received a packet. At least it was mailed from City Hall to the post office. In regard to the report which was distributed at this meeting this evening, the letter dated August 19th which went out and explaining the process that would take place this evening, as we continue forward, was mailed on the 19th. The staff report was not prepared completely until the end of that week.., report would be available after August 22nd . If they would be interested in receiving it, they should contact Karen Engelhardt at our office to receive that report. My office has done everything within it's power, has spent many, many hours on this mailing list and we've worked with three post offices. Both at Chanhassen, Excelsior and Chaska to make sure that the mail is distributed. Again I'm... tell you that they were not.., communication but I can say that in any of our neighborhood park and city processes, this has been one of the most, or 10 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 the most comprehensive in my 11 years with here with the City of Chanhassen. Never before have we attempted to involve 400, over 450 residents in a process, and never before have we involved a neighborhood focus group to this extent in a neighborhood park development process. Lash: Okay, thanks. Lisa Brafl2 Hi. I'm Lisa Brafl~ I'm at 7410 Minnewashta Parkway and my husband and I have lived there for 15 years. We have three boys who are just looking forward to having a beach to swim in and we are all for it. Of course safety is the concern but I know that there are three and four associations along the parkway. Three that I know of, that have an issue with people crossing back and forth and the Linden Circle one has, it's very well marked. Has a better sight line but there are lots of paint saying pedestrian crossway and you just have to watch where you're driving and parental supervision is so important that I can't imagine not being there with my kids and crossing with my kids... Even if there isn't a beach there, what's going to keep kids from jumping into the lake anyhow. I figure if they're going to do that, let's make it a safe beach and I think if they're having no park there anyway, there would have been some kind of an association push to be put there anyhow because it's such a beautiful piece of land for a beach. And I think if you do limit parking, you'll limit the outside traffic.., beach so I know at Carver Park over on Lotus Lake, there are very few places to park and so I used to go there but I have no desire to go there anyway.., it's really for the neighborhood over there too so I think that's something to think about. And I have a note here from Pastor Lemke and his wife from Faith Lutheran Church at the very end of the parkway on TH 5. Dear Chanhassen City Hall. We are extremely disappointed that the public beach planned for Minnewashta Parkway could be left out of the planned park. We have lived on Minnewashta Parkway for 22 years and used to use Leech's Resort. We need a beach within walking or biking distance. That beach is a great location that allows residents on the parkway who don't live on the lake. Please don't remove the beach from the park. Thank you. Margaret Parsons: This is the first I've heard of this. My name is Margaret Parsons, 3732 Hickory. I'm one of the fortunate ones. My family learned to swim with the Leech family... The children all learned to swim and I can't endorse this too much. It took me until I was 60 to go to the YWCA and learn to swim. My kids have swam across that lake all summer. I didn't know... but they all swim and they swim like fish and there couldn't be any better exercise because when you're as old as I am, it's one of the best exercises and it's a lot to do in the morning. Michele M. Clark: Hi. I'm Michele... Clark and my address is 3841 Red Cedar Point. I'm a member of the focus group but I'm here tonight to speak as a mother of one of the little people and I am really excited that we are initiating a park where we are. The fact that a park is on the lake cannot be ignored and while some people have been worried about the potential problems, I am worried that we are going to forget about a wonderful resource which is right next door, the lake. I think what we need is just a small beach. It doesn't have to be big and fancy. One where I can meet other families and sort of increase my community. I've lived in the neighborhood for about 10 years and I've wanted a beach for just as long. While the lake property owners have been very generous, ifI need to, I can also go swimming. It would be so nice to just say, come on son, let's go swimming. Just for half an hour and don't have to ask or call. We can just go. 11 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 To address the safety concerns that some have about the beach, like Lisa mentioned, there are two other private beaches in which the users must cross the street, Minnewashta Parkway, and in my 10 years there, I haven't heard of an accident. Once again I just want to tell you I'm looking forward to using the park with my family and meeting other families. I feel a beach is a necessary item since the park is on the lake. And...beach opportunity out of fear, I think the additional of a public beach would be a pro-active response and encourage community building. Thank you. Lash: Thank you. Don Roper: Hi. My name is Don Roper. I live at 7509 West 77th Street. I'm just here to express support for the beach and want you guys to think about the little kids. That's what's so great about, my wife and I are new to the neighborhood and we have a young child and it's nice to take him down. We went down there yesterday as a matter of fact and even nicer if you had a little beach to sit down and enjoy it all. We realize safety is a big issue and get some experts that can look at that and can help you with it. If the locals can't hammer it out, get the experts in, and that's sounds like what you're doing, but again I'd just like to express my support for the beach. Lash: Thank you. Janet Carlson: Hi. I'm Janet Carlson. I live on Kings Road. I'm against the hockey rink. That is something I would just as soon see forget. And I'm with the safety measure for the kids. And then the other thing is, parking on Kings Road. Is there going to be parking on both sides of Kings Road? Hoffman: Currently the street would be not signed no parking on either side. Janet Carlson: On either side? Hoffman: Correct. Janet Carlson: Then you're going to mn into problems on that. Because even on Minnewashta Parkway there has been, even with the no parking signs, there has been times where people that live along there have had parties and you have people parking on both sides and it's just about impossible to meet any traffic there whatsoever. And I don't care if they're going to park on one side, that's fine but I don't want to see parking on both sides. It's just not commendable I don't think at all whatsoever. I would be very much opposed to parking on both sides. Berg: Can I ask you a question Mrs. Carlson? Janet Carlson: Yes. Berg: What is your opposition specifically to the hockey rink? Janet Carlson: I don't know, I just don't want a hockey rink there. With the lights and everything, this is just kind of like a community park. I just don't, I don't know, I just would as 12 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 soon not. With the lights there, and of course I know they've got control of hours on it and everything but there's just two or three more of them that just opened up in Chanhassen now didn't they? Within the last short time.., in the paper. Lash: Yeah. How many did we put in at Bluff Creek, two? Hoffman: Two. Roeser: These are neighborhood hockey rinks though you know. They would be used by kids living in the neighborhood. Rather than have them go up to Bluff Creek. They can pick up their skates and walk to the rink .... And the lights, you almost need the lights in the winter time. You know 6:00 it's dark. Lash: Even if we just have open skating. An open skating pond, which I think most people would want eventually. There would have to be a light because otherwise nobody would be able to use it. Janet Carlson: I just do not want to see a hockey rink there... I would greatly oppose. Thank you. Berg: We're not, when we talk lights and a hockey rink, we're not talking the large array of lights are we Todd? Are we talking one light? Hoffman: A hockey rink, you would need two poles. North Lotus has two poles on opposite comers. There are areas where the foot candles are not there that we have at the community parks... Lash: An the hours, what time to do they go out, 9:00? Hoffman: 9:00. Berg: This is a real dumb question but it's a technical question. With these lights, how much illumination is there away from the hockey area? Hoffman: That issue has been debated at length in every community in the state. How I like to characterize it is that you'll see the lights. It doesn't matter where you're at, you'll see the lights. With the spillover impact in fact is a very technical question and the city actually.., city ordinance which restricts the amount of spill in the amount of illumination at the edge of the street, or at certain distance in feet away from the rink so you would have to just meet the city ordinance for those lighting restrictions. Tom Paradise: Hi. I'm Tom Paradise. I live at 3755 Red Cedar Point. I wrote and I am in support of the beach also, along with my family. I also have a letter here from a neighbor of mine. Dear Chanhassen City Council members. On behalf of our family, we strongly support a beach on the west side of Minnewashta. With a home on Red Cedar Point here I would miss the opportunity to have access to a community beach or belong to an association.., people living 13 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 around the lake. The new park is a wonderful idea for all the people of Chanhassen. The City to have a beach in combination with a park shows great foresight and consideration for generations to come. Please say yes. Thank you. Lash: Can you tell us who that's from. Tom Paradise: Mike and Cindy Winter. 3841 Red Cedar Point. Lash: Thank you. Any other comments? Greg Dattilo: Hi. I'm Greg Dattilo, 7201 Juniper Avenue. I would like to thank the Park Board for putting in our parkway. Our walkway parkway and making a large investment in that park so far and thinking of throwing in some more money for the improvements. I had the privilege of going through all the surveys last night and as you know there was 146 surveys and I was going through, what I wanted to do was categorize the number one priority. The survey was rated 1 through 5. 1 being first priority. Must have. So going through the 11 items, volleyball at 10. Hockey had 17. Round house had 19. Ballfield had 23. Fishing pier and tennis and basketball courts both had 25. Picnic area had 31. Playground, 6 to 12. 41 people chose that to be their number one thing. Beach, was 45. The only other one that had more than beach was the playground 3 to 5. That's one-third, approximately one-third of that in returns of surveys had the beach as their number one priority. Now there was a comment on... that came back out of 96 so 40 negatives, 14 were on the beach. But out of the 40 total negatives, 35% of the 40 negative comments came from 5 people. 3 1/2% of the total amount of respondents voiced 35% of the negative. Berg: I guess, I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt. I thought you were finished. Greg Dattilo: Fishing pier. This one's kind of fun. Let the small fish grow up. I thought that was kind of fun. The same survey, the same person, swimming beach. Don't need that much noise at our dock and beach. So those were the negatives that were coming back was you know, on the swimming beach. It's like, don't need that noise at our dock and beach. Well, that would have to be a dock or beach that's very close to that property so here, I just want to let everybody know what the rest of the survey had as being the number two top priority was the swimming beach. Thank you. Meger: I'm just curious, could you go the opposite way and count how many five's? Greg Dattilo: Five's. I did on three things. Beach, ballfield and volleyball. Those three things were.., and also were the three things that well, I'd better take a look at to see what all the surveys had. The beach, it had 45 number one's and it had 26 number five's, okay. Now if you go to the ballfield, you had 23 number one's. And you had 19 number five's. So it was a much more even spread, you know between the ballfield and the volleyball was the opposite. We had 10 yes's, or 10 one's and you had 30 five's. I mean that was something that the focus group agreed on with the volleyball was, it was basically.., and that really fit in with the neighborhood response. With the volleyball and the ballfield. But it really surprised, because that was the first thing I did 14 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 because I saw a beach, it had 45 one's. Ballfield had 23 and volleyball had 10. I kind of went wow. That's a lot. Why don't I take a look at the other eight projects to see how many one's they had because actually in the survey, and how it was tallied, which is the way I would have done it too. All the numbers were added up and divided by the total number of respondents and came up with a number.., because there was a large number of five's that downgraded the one. I get all statistical and you're probably confused but here I just wanted to point out that the only one that had more number one's was the playground for the 3 to 5 year olds. Thank you. Resident: I did a little bit on a grid. I added the total of the one's and two's together and I added all of the four's and five's together and left the three's in the middle. And that way it came out with 63% for the play area phase two. 64.7 for phase one. 54.7 for landscaping. 46.7 for picnic and 49.3... By the same token there were very few negative percentages on the list. The beach had 26 and the picnic 25. Greg Dattilo: Is that percentages? Resident: Those are percentages. I would be happy to leave this with you if you would like it. Resident: ... this is from Bill and Theresa Thompson at 7396 Ridgehill Road. We're interested in the development of a public beach on Lake Minnewashta. We are unable to attend the meeting this evening and would like this letter to be our voice and our representation for a beach/public at Minnewashta. We would like to know about future development of the project. Sincerely... Lash: Can you leave that letter? Thank you. Hoffman: The remaining.., like to make those a part of the public record, we do have verbatim Minutes on tape that would be easy to include them and have the hard copies so. Lash: So when this segment's over if you can leave those letters. Dave Headla: Dave Headla, 6870 Minnewashta Parkway. I think I'm the second closest house to the park. Wenzel's being the first. You're going to hear, if you haven't.., we were a rural area until 95% of the people here moved out. We're now city people. We have street lights, curb, gutter, fire hydrants so I look at it... I'd like to talk first about the swimming beach, and this park and swimming beach, outside of the parkway system, or the trail system on the parkway, that's been debated quite a bit at our house between our friends and neighbors. When we get around the kitchen table and we hash it out pretty hard. On the swimming beach, listening to the focus group, I think there's two what I'd say very valid concerns.., safety. And one is the kids crossing the street and the other, people come out... I saw it again this last weekend. People come out. Families come out. Swim there. Go out on their air mattresses. They do get out into what could be road traffic. It happens at Pleasant Acres, in that area. People in their air mattresses go out there too. So the first one is just crossing the road.., shrubbery along the west side of the road. I think that can be effective. I think what can be a lot more effective, compliment that is to have like a split rail fence. A... foot garden or something with a plastic chain link around it on the east side of the road. So when kids come across, they've got a barrier to begin with, or gets them on 15 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 the trail. They look across the road and dog gone it, there's a barrier there. There's an obstacle. It isn't going to stop them 100%. Particularly small kids I think it's going to be very effective and they're going to go around. I would really like to encourage I want a beach, and I'll tell you more about it, but I would really like to encourage some type of obstacle on the east side of the road. And then this air mattresses going out. I think that's very serious. I was driving a powerboat and I was pulling some kids tubing and you have to keep an eye on them. I don't know what can be done to control that but if we have a beach, I think you can put rules up there and not everybody's going to obey them but I think you have some clout there then and I wouldn't hesitate at all to go out and tell those people about that rule. I just think that's probably the best way to control that type of situation. It isn't safe. I don't know... And then, there's well over 100 homes that do not have any access to the beach within walking distance of this park. I really wonder, I think they should all have access to the lake, and this is just an excellent place. And the reason I'm pushing this so much... I grew up Lake Minnetonka... and we would swim up to three times a day. I found it a very important part of my life and this year I just had a 50th High School Anniversary... from California. We grew up together. At breakfast and what did we talk about. We talked about swimming in the summer times. The screxx~ things we did. The fun times we had and so I still swim three times a week and it just made a tremendous impact on me. But it was within an unorganized swimming beach that we did all this. We created our own pond. Now I'd like to talk about the hockey rink. There have been suggestions and Janet brought it up tonight. Janet Carlson on the lights. And Sue Morgan... I've been thinking about it and I've looked at Cathcart and then I start thinking, there is a light post.., out at Winsted... probably 30 years ago... It doesn't have to be a tall light. It isn't a parking lot light or anything but it is effective... You could use that type of light post and when the hockey season's over, you can either tip it at the base, tip it down or take it and put it away. I understand it's not too difficult to do that type of thing. I guess I would like to have you consider. I do not know the cost... I think hockey, neighborhood hockey is very important. You hear all this stuff about organized baseball, organized hockey and I was part of organized hockey and it really was great but I also think... Let the.., walk to the skating rink... Let them have a place they can walk to and play hockey in the afternoon. Have pick-up games or if they want to just skate. But let's have some place that's unorganized. Cathcart is unacceptable. You've got to cross Highway 7. My kids, my grandson, I don't let them walk across Highway 7 in the late afternoon. It's too dam dangerous. No other place available. We aren't going to drive over to Cathcart or Badger. The... are unacceptable to get on there. Especially trying to get on at 5:00 or 6:00 at night. I just really would like to see that hockey there, and in line skate. I think those young fellows tonight that talked about in line skating, it's very healthy for them. I think it's a good thing, like they said, rather than getting into trouble, they're out there working... The only other thing I had to say is, I would like to see you reconsider the volleyball court... The volleyball court really isn't much of a problem. And I asked Todd about it's use. He felt...thank you. Lash: Thanks. Anyone else? Okay. It looks like we're ready for commissioner comments. Questions. Would you like to start Mike? I'll start at your end. Howe: I just think as far as the hockey rink, there's been a lot of good points made about the lights and maybe the crowds or the noise. I mean as far as the lights, what are we talking, 3 months a year on the lights? December to March maybe. In a good year. How long is that really 16 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 going to be a problem? It won't be used in the summer .... so we're talking two months. 2 1/2 months maybe. And the beach, it seems like most folks seem to want the beach. It seems like an integral part of this park. I've seen a lot of support for that. I do agree, I have two little boys. I try to watch them as best I can, so does their mother. There are times when they can slip away. And I can see the point about slowing cars down and maybe just a sign warning of a crosswalk or a beach crossing or one of those children playground present. Something like that just to warn people what they're coming into because they may not be used to it initially and as that neighborhood grows and those houses going in there, there will be more traffic. I know that study indicates that but those would be my points. Lash: Okay, thanks Mike. Jane. Meger: I guess I'd like to specifically address the safety issues as well. I think there were a lot of good recommendations for signage. Blinking signs. I like the idea of some type of barrier that prohibits kids from just being able to sprint across any old portion of the park. Shrubs are always a nice amenity. It can provide some shade as well. And as far as once they're in the water and floating out further, at Carver Beach I know we have some ropes that kind of give them an area to stay within, which I think would be another good idea for safety reasons. You get people out there but I'd... it's nice to see such a large group of people coming in and expressing their ideas, concerns and I'm a mother too so it's nice to hear the concerns of the children as well. The last point about volleyball I think is one that we should make note of. When we visited the site tonight we talked a little bit about if there was an open skate area, that usually you have to reseed after that and that might be a nice place to put up a volleyball court that could go in the summer at a relatively low cost. I think that's something for the group to consider. Those I guess are my main thoughts at this point. I think it sounds like the beach is something that people are certainly interested in. Perhaps I know that somewhere it talked about that being tabled and you hate to move too quickly ahead but maybe it's something that if the focus group really wants to talk about, how we can make it safe. What precautions do we really think are going to be necessary to make it safe to get across that street .... I think as a commission, one of the things that we thought of when we wanted that piece of property was the lake access and that's obviously what made it so much something that we wanted so we would like to leave that open to as many as people as we can. And again, I think the idea of limiting parking, I have had the same experience trying to go swimming at Carver Beach. I don't live right in that neighborhood but I know it's there and I have had occasion where I've been able to park and I've had occasion where I've had to drive away too because there's limited parking there. I think that's... Lash: Frank. Scott: Yeah, on the safety issues, if they're not getting traffic coming in on the parkway, I would think that they could barriers very effectively to just keep people from crossing except where you want them to. That is a big problem. Especially with kids and a swimming beach. I've got a question of Todd. These two letters, one of them says there's $350,000.00 invested already and the other one says $250,000.00. Do you which one of those is right? 17 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Hoffman: $250,000.00 invested in the land area and then the additional $100,000.00 was the road improvements that were put in... Scott: That's all. Lash: Okay. I'd like to congratulate you all too on all the work and the time you've put into this. It's wonderful to see this neighborhood input and we certainly appreciate it. This park has been a goal of the Park and Rec Commission for as long as I've been on and that's 7 years we've worked hard to try and get this site and we really want to get it going and I hope that through this process that this park will bring your neighborhood together and not everybody's going to agree on the final product and how it should turn out but I hope that the ultimate product will be that you all come together and enjoy this park for the beauty... It is going to be a wonderful, I think it's going to be one of the most beautiful neighborhood parks in this city. I have a couple of comments about specific things. One on the parking on Kings Road. I would agree with stafl~s recommendation that we begin without signage. If we monitor it. If the residents see it as a problem in the future, I would certainly direct that to Public Safety as far as signage would go in the future. I would like to find out specifically with the lighting for hockey and open skating. Well first of all I guess I had a question if it would be possible on the plan to flip the hockey, open skate so the hockey was more in the center of the park. Maybe it wouldn't be as invasive to the neighbors on Kings Road. I don't know if that's a possibility. And then also just to find out specifically, did you say that the lighting would be on either end of the hockey rink? Hoffman: At opposite comers. Lash: Okay. And then for open skate there would be a separate light pole for that? Hoffman: Depending on the configuration. It's close enough where we'd put it off the back side of one of the other poles that separate... Lash: And like Jane said, I'll just explain that even a little further with the volleyball. We looked at that, I looked at areas where there's open skating as an example City Center, and you have skating in the winter and then in the spring it's like, it's a mess because there's no grass there and you have to see it and it takes, you know how long that takes. We just looked at the volleyball as a summer usage of property instead of having to put the money and time and labor into reseeding it and having it be a mess for most of the year anyway. Just turn it into volleyball in the summer. Open skating in the winter and then at least it looks like it's a finished product all the time instead of something that's always in transition. And it is very inexpensive for us to put in, and you may find that when you have neighborhood picnics, or family things where the people would use it. And I'd be interested from Todd in the priority of these things that we've kind of looked at. With the budget that we have for next year and in the future, how far we're going to get into this and how long it will take us to. The big ticket items are the tennis and the hockey, right? And if one of those is in one of the first phases, it's going to eat up all the money really fast so you know when you're prioritizing, you might want to be looking at a time line of well, would you rather have the majority of things done right away and hold off on tennis and or would you rather have tennis right away and hold off on everything else. I know how I would feel but it's your park. I 18 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 would be interested in seeing, and I'm sure there's phone service to the round house now, is there not? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: And us installing a pay phone in case there were safety emergencies there that someone could call 911 without a coin. That could help for the Wenzel's. That way you wouldn't have people knocking on your door. They could use the pay phone. I'd also like to look at the trail configuration because on this newest plan, it goes out to Minnewashta Parkway and I think I would prefer to see it go around the round house to the parking lot. I think the trail going to the parkway at least. People to the parkway and not the crosswalk. And I agree with the barrier on the east side. I think that's the end of my comments or suggestions on this but maybe when we're done we could find out from Todd what you think, how far we could get with what we have budgeted. Do you have a budget tonight? Hoffman: I have some estimates for you. First in response to the hockey question. Their current location was shown and according to Bruce Chamberlain, our park planning consultant, is the only reasonable location. And concerning the budget. If you'll recall, somewhere in... $60,000.00 you've got left. $65,000.00 approximately left for development. Slightly less than that. Consulting charges for the traffic study. The park planning to date and then the lease on the ... are the outstanding costs to date... We do not know whether, how far we'll get with the parking, curb and gutter, access points. Those type of things need to go initially and I do not have an estimate of how.., also look at similar parking lots and consolidate those hard surface areas. Next, part of the planning process, the reason for the priorities design and in the neighborhood can decide what would go in the first, second, third and fourth. You currently have identified an additional $50,000.00 for 1997. That will be presented to the City Council for this park. That will be presented to the City Council as a part of the 1997 budget presentation. And what that will get you is, the play structures are right up there in the range and typically the commission designates about $25,000.00 per phase so if we start with a single phase, and then landscaping and some of the other minor amenities. If you do decide to put in volleyball or some of the other minor amenities, and that's... Lash: Would we, you just kind of answered the question but it wasn't the answer I wanted. I was kind of hoping next year what we could do would be, if we used the money this year for seeding, grading, parking. I was hoping next year we'd be able to put in play, picnic, open skating, and somehow I think we'll apply for a grant for the pier, will we not? Okay, so maybe that can go in, and some work on the beach. A lot of that is labor. Hoffman: ... labor and we can accomplish that. Picnic facilities is the ground will be graded and the seed and then the picnic tables and certainly a swimming beach again.., and the hard costs there would be in the sand itself and relatively minor costs for the type of project.., apply for a grant and the actual purchase price ranges from $17,000.00 to $20,000.00. We purchased one in the city at Lake Susan. We received a second one in the city I think... 19 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Lash: So do you think we'll be able to move forward as far as saying, we would be close to putting in the bulk of the things in the park except basketball, tennis and hockey? Hoffman: Correct. The thing that you phrased, the play area. One of the things is the play area, landscaping, picnic facilities, and swimming beach and the open space. Lash: And how about the ballfield? That's basically just grading and seeding. Hoffman: Open field. Lash: Okay, so that could be. All right. I believe that's the end of my comments. We'll move to Fred. Berg: Okay, thank you. I have to go with what my other commission members have said too about the acceptance of the beach. I wasn't hearing as many negatives as I was concerns I think about the safety. I think it's absolutely imperative we have some sort of signage there. I don't know Todd what we're talking about when we talk about temporary signage. If that's something that we can deal with. It's more of a headache than it's worth. But then we certainly have to have the grading on both sides. The bushes, whatever on the east and west. That was a great idea. And also some sort of blinking sign from both directions letting people know that there is a crosswalk coming, or a pedestrian crossing of some sort. Preferably something mentioning children. That always gets me to take a second look. I guess I had a question for Jerry or Todd. What kind of usage do our hockey rinks get now? Our outdoor hockey rinks. Ruegemer: Right now Fred you know, as hockey increases in Chanhassen probably on the average, we have hockey practice up there like 4 or 5 nights a week currently. And then we are open until 9:00. We do have a lot of people there every day and.., will continue year round with the in line skating rinks. Berg: Okay. So they're getting justifiable use? Is that safe to say? Okay. My concern through a lot of this has been from the tennis courts, and nobody addressed the issue of the tennis courts. I have concern for what they do to what is a very pristine, beautiful spot I think. To see two green and burnt orange, I won't say the word I'm thinking of, but large areas. Asphalted areas and I'm a tennis player so understand that too. It works against I think what the rest of that park is for. It's a real natural use with a picnic area. I wouldn't want to sit in a picnic area and overlooking a tennis court. That's just my own personal bias. I don't know how strong a feeling the neighborhood is. I wish some people had expressed their point of view about that. My sense with tennis courts quite often is that those people who are really avid tennis players are old enough to drive to where there is some tennis courts. Again, I'm going on no feedback from anyone. That's just my own sense. Otherwise I agree with everything that's been said so far. Lash: Thanks. Ron. Roeser: Well I appreciate all these people coming and talking to us tonight too because it's really nice to have a neighborhood that comes in and says what they think. What I'm surprised at is the 20 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 part that focus minutes says here, the swimming beach was rejected after much discussion. It doesn't sound like that here and it seems to me that there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for that beach. And then of course the city is concerned about safety. You certainly made that quite plain to us tonight and fence along both sides would be a great way of steering the kids across, is a good idea. I agree with Fred about the tennis courts. Generally tennis courts that I see biking around the city and stufl} if they're not in clusters, they're usually growing grass. They just don't get the use that a lot of people think, oh we've got to have these tennis courts in the park and generally they sit idle 99% of the time. Tennis is played, people have to drive to where they can see a bunch of courts so I would really, wouldn't be real enthusiastic about doing that very soon. The beach has certainly moved up in my estimation. It sounds like that should be one of our priorities. And that's about it. Manders: You used up everything I wanted to say there. Not necessarily the first thing but I would echo the same comments on the tennis courts that, I would want to see I guess more expressed sentiment for the courts before we would ever go ahead and just put them in because I would question how much they would get used. Not to say that they wouldn't be put in but I guess I would want more of a sense of that. The other thing on sand volleyball is kind of a minor issue I guess. It's not.., there really isn't much of a question about putting it in. It's just the safety issue about how that gets addressed. But to me one of the bigger questions is on the line of the hockey rink and the amount of parking that would be available for it. How many spaces are we envisioning as far as parking out at this park? Hoffman: The plans varied. The concept on October 16th included 12 in one parking lot and 10 in another parking lot so 22 in that concept plan. The second concept plan included 10 in the west parking lot and 12 and then two handicap in the other parking lot for a total of 24. Manders: Do you offhand recall what kind of parking space we have at North Lotus? Not that much is it? Hoffman: The parking lot was expanded with the addition of the in line skating hockey rink. It's not being... The original parking lot had approximately, they had that installed... Manders: So it's about the same size? Hoffman: It's about the same size. You've got a single site.., for approximately 20 cars. When it's lined, it'd be about 26 cars... Manders: Do you recall anything about the usage this past winter up there in terms of parking and any associated problems? Hoffman: I didn't receive any calls. I know we had a call during the summer on parking issues and not enough parking in the parking lot when there was scheduled ball practices. The commission is aware about those park.., soccer practices and we have a mixed use of programs and activities and... 21 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Manders: What I think is probably the biggest demand area, you know outside of the beach, which I think will be a lot of local resident use. Walking to the beach. And hockey I suspect would be very similar but the part of the parking is, the usage where hockey is going to be growing. There's no question about that in terms of demand so if this facility is planned to be a scheduled practice rink like most of the other ones, I would take that's the plan, Jerry? That this would be a scheduled facility as far as hockey usage? Hoffman: That would be a policy set by, established by the commission. Currently, up until last year, all the current existing hockey rinks were.., or excuse me, community parks where they were scheduled. Now if you want a similar policy for your winter use where it's for neighborhood only, or if you would desire, we can discuss... Manders: Okay. Because that to me is where there's potentially going to be some issues with usage and parking out there. Other than that I guess those are the only comments. Meger: I have just one more comment because I can't leave it alone and that would be the name of the park. The Round House Park and those of you in the audience will have to understand that. When the park was first purchased we had to make a decision whether or not to leave that building stand or whether to demolish it at the time that they were taking out some of the other buildings and we had voted in favor of that. My concern now is, with the naming, if the park is named Round House Park and some of the things that we're planning to do, it's looking like the round house renovation is going to be maybe not one of the top priorities of things that's going to be done maybe this year or next year. It doesn't look real attractive right now so that would be I guess a concern for me that you have that beautiful piece of property there and perhaps, I don't know, at least a coat of paint or something put on there to make it a little more appealing. Especially if it's going to be the Round House Park, because you're drawing attention to that particular amenity. Hoffman: Commissioner Meger, there has been discussion about a neighborhood effort. Meger: That would be great. Hoffman: ... assisting in that project so the.., expenditures could be limited through a volunteer effort... Berg: I can only speak for one as a commissioner, I think probably those of us who felt to keep the round house probably should be on that list of people volunteering... Hoffman: We'll pull out those Minutes. Lash: Just for the residents benefit. I feel that we need to move forward with this this evening and I hate to see any more slowed down in this process. It's already been kind of dragged out and I hate to see it get slowed down to the point where next season things won't more forward the way we'd like to so with that I guess I'd be looking for a motion from a commissioner who'd like to try and pull this together as much as possible. 22 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Berg: Do you want separate motions or one for the whole thing? Lash: What would make it easier for you Todd? Broken down? Why don't we just go through the staff recommendation one at a time. That way we don't have to go back and make a lot of... Berg: I move that the area on Minnewashta Parkway and Kings Road parkland be designated as Round House Park. Lash: Is there a second? Howe: Second. Berg moved, Howe seconded that the area on Minnewashta Parkway and Kings Road parkland be designated as Round House Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: Do you want to keep going with it? Berg: Yeah. I think we have to amend this one a little bit from what the recommendation was. I guess we don't really. I move to accept stafl~s recommendation to recommend the conclusions of the Benshoof and Associates and that's what I wanted to change isn't it. I want to get something in here about the safety issue .... that their conclusions be affirmed with the addition of signage to indicate that there is a pedestrian crosswalk. Signage to indicate that there is a pedestrian crosswalk. Preferably a light, or some sort of sign that is very visible to people coming from both directions, north and south I believe. Further move that there be some sort of natural barrier put on both sides of Minnewashta to discourage anyone from crossing other than at the crosswalk. And that there be, I didn't see it tonight, maybe it's there, that there be a clear crosswalk painted onto Minnewashta so that everyone can see exactly where it is. And that we also accept the recommendation that there be no parking on Minnewashta but that it would be maintained on Kings Road. Lash: And revisited? Berg: Right, and revisited after 6 months. Meger: Second. Berg moved, Meger seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the conclusions of Benshoof and Associates be affirmed with the following additions: That very visible signage with possibly a fight be installed to indicate that there is a pedestrian crosswalk to people coming from both directions, north and south. Further that there be some sort of natural barrier put on both sides of Minnewashta to discourage anyone from crossing other than at the crosswalk. And that there be a clear crosswalk painted onto Minnewashta so that everyone can see exactly where it is. And also to accept the recommendation that there be no parking on Minnewashta Parkway but parking would be 23 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 permitted on Kings Road with the item being revisited after one year. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Hoffman: And when does the 6 months start? Lash: I think it should go through a summer season. Berg: 6 months is too short. Let's make it a year. Lash: Anyone opposed to that amendment? Okay. Next recommendation. Berg: I guess I'd like to hear some figures first. In terms of what we're talking about in terms of what we can officially hopefully give them. Lash: Actually what we need to do is look at, do we want to go forward with this master plan or have we made suggestions that drastic changes that we want to see it again, or have we not? The only suggestion I had is that the trail not lead out to Minnewashta Parkway. And that possibly the volleyball and open skating be combined into one area. Other than that, does anyone have any other? Manders: Tennis to me is an open question that I don't think is necessarily a given that it should be put in. And I would hold it out until a future date, if it's going to be put in. I wouldn't say that the space wouldn't be there if need be but I wouldn't commit to putting it in. Lash: What did the tennis rate in the survey? Does anybody happen to know? Hoffman: 26 I believe. Right in the middle of the packet. Bruce Chamberlain: It was tied for fifth. What you have was combined with the tennis and the basketball court and you don't know if they were voting for a basketball court or tennis court. Hoffman: I would recommend that your decision to instruct staff as to the components which you would like to see in a master plan. If you desire that the space for the tennis court be left intact but the tennis court be taken off of the plan, that should be a part of your motion. And if you desire to see this priority submitted to Council, we can have it prepared in a week to 10 days. Distribute it to the commission and if you would speak with either Chair Lash or Vice Chair Berg if you have opposition they can communicate to me whether or not you want to table it from the September 9th City Council agenda to have it presented at a future meeting here. If you have great concerns over that proposed master plan. Lash: Do we further down the line in the budget, what's the next time that we have any money budgeted for this site? Do you know? Hoffman: In the project CIP? 24 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Lash: Yes. Hoffman: I don't recall if you put another block of money in there for '98 I believe... I think it's also worth mentioning as we discussed this evening, that the park referendum task force and Commissioner Scott's a member of that task force. Commissioner Manders is as well. And they are considering including a block of improvements in their referendum proposal for a vote next spring. They've still not made that decision but they could set aside, put capital of $100,000.00 in improvements for this park site as a part of that referendum.., so they are taking a look at that. Lash: And how much would we be looking at for the tennis? Tennis-basketball combination, and hockey. Those two combined rough estimate. Hoffman: Rough estimate would be about $100,000.00... for hockey, basketball with the lights on and then about $30,000.00 for... Lash: So Jim what, how would you like to move forward with this? Manders: I guess. Lash: Could we make it into a phase one development master plan that would show the things that. Manders: I guess the question that's being asked tonight is, do we leave a space there. I mean we don't have to decide about putting it in. Do we just leave the space for a tennis courts. And not knowing necessarily how the neighborhood feels on that issue conclusively, I think we almost have to leave the space for it in. And for that matter in the same way, you leave the space there and deal with the actual development at a future date. Lash: I agree. So how will we move forward with the recommendation? Manders: So what's left is basically defining the contents of the park, I mean in terms of amenities? Hoffman: Correct. What you want to see in it. A master plan is a public document which speaks a great deal about what you're thinking should be developed on a particular site. What we're asking of you this evening is to direct the City Council, or ask the City Council to approve a master plan, proposed master plan with the amenities that you desire to see on the site. Manders: I guess maybe one other point that I know I had read or I don't know if it was spoken to tonight but there was some thought about too many things being pushed into this small space and what things could be backed off and things that I'm hearing that rank low are volleyball but that is maybe a transitional item between open skating and winter and volleyball in the summer. So I don't see that as a real issue. Tennis I do. I mean that's a thing that maybe there isn't a demand and it could lessen the compactness or usage demand on that area so I guess I'm still kind of riding the rail on whether we want to put it in or not. 25 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Berg: Let me give it a try and see what you think and I'll accept a friendly amendment. I move that we recommend to City Council the following components be included in a proposed master park plan. Playground phases 1 and 2, landscaping, picnic area, an area where two non- illuminated tennis courts and basketball hoops may be placed, open skating area, one illuminated hockey and inline skating rink, and in conjunction with that a sand volleyball area, fishing pier, an open play field, bike rack, water fountain, parking and trail network. That trail to go not along Minnewashta but into the proposed parking area. Lash: I want to just question on the water fountain. Is that something we're going to be able to do? Is that because of the round house? Hoffman: Yeah. The round house has utilities in there and. Lash: I just know when we looked at it for Kurver the costs were. Hoffman: Yeah... Lash: Okay. Is there a second to that? Scott: Second. Lash: Any discussion or questions? Howe: Is the beach included in that? Did you get the beach in there? Lash: Probably not. Manders: That was mentioned earlier. Berg: The beach is included in the landscaping. Lash: Yeah, but the beach itself was not included so you'd have to put the beach in. Berg: And the beach area. The lakefront beach. Thank you. Lash: Any other friendly amendments or questions on that? Is there a second on that? Scott: I seconded it. Berg moved, Scott seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to City Council the following components be included in a proposed master park plan: Lakeshore beach, playground phases 1 and 2, landscaping, picnic area, an area where two non- illuminated tennis courts and basketball hoops may be placed, open skating area, one illuminated hockey and inline skating rink, and in conjunction with that a sand volleyball 26 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 area, fishing pier, an open play field, bike rack, water fountain, parking and trail network. That trail to go not along Minnewashta but into the proposed parking area. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: GoodjobFred. That's it? Okay. Hoffman: Your guidance as far as how you would like the process... ? Lash: Well I believe this recommendation with the master plan would go onto City Council September 9th. Hoffman: And you would like to see.., prior to the meeting with Council, correct? Lash: Is there anyone who feels strongly that they need to see a revised plan before the meeting? Berg: Are you going to handle the garbage pick-up? Hoffman: You bet. Lash: Okay, and I feel confident with the minor changes that were made, that I really don't have to see it. Hoffman: It wasn't included in the mailing to the neighborhood. Lash: And will everyone on the mailing list receive the outcome of this meeting, with what happened? Hoffman: Yeah the motion.., put in the report. Manders: In terms of follow-up as far as the park association out there and I'm just wondering what other kinds of input are planned. Is there further work that's. Hoffman: Well the discussion at the last meeting obviously revolved around the beach. I think it would be appropriate to invite comment from the members of that committee... Manders: I guess kind of where I'm heading with this is, maybe I should be more clear when I ask the question but, is pertaining to the referendum. That commission that I'm working on or the park task force. And as Todd had indicated there's some discussion about including a block of funds in that referendum that would address the needs in this park and I would welcome comment or input from that group regarding application of those funds. Resident: May I ask a question? Manders: Sure. 27 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Resident: ... and I'm speaking more for the other areas because the homes are just not.., but perhaps as those areas grow.., but there are several homes, people moving in who are unaware of parklands... Manders: I mean I'm talking to a referendum in the sense of getting input from that group and certainly as much as can be put together in that regard. I guess tentatively we're looking at something next spring as far as a referendum vote. Resident: The park costs would be paid out of a different fund? Manders: Some of it but we don't have total funds to help get the entire. Residents: Now you're expecting the residents to pay for it? Manders: Pardon me? Resident: You're asking the residents to pay for it? Manders: It's a timing issue. You know how quickly do you want the park out there as opposed to maybe not out there. Resident: I guess I'm a little surprised you're asking the Focus Team for that because most of the Focus Team's actions weren't accepted by the Commissioners so. Manders: Such as? Resident: Such as volleyball was something we recommended not be included. You have included it. Swimming beach was something we recommended we wait for. You have included it. There was a lot of discussion about not allowing parking on Kings Road, and a lot of discussion against the hockey rink and you included both of those issues. So I have a feeling that the Focus Team met an awful lot and nothing was accepted by the Commission. So I'm surprised that you're asking for more information from the Focus Team. Manders: I can accept your statement. I guess there's probably opposing views but. Lash: I think the finding that we're talking about, we said we had $50,000.00 budgeted for next year, which I think what we're trying to do is to put in the amenities in the priorities that the focus group presented to us. Priorities that were a little lower is the hockey and some of those, which happen to be the most expensive items, and we would not have the funds in the near future budgeted for those items. Resident: Todd showed the focus group that and made it very clear that the residents would not be expected to pay for it out of general funds. That the park would be paid for out of trail funds or I'm not sure what that is from the new building that's going on. 28 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Lash: And that's typically how it is done. And that is how it will eventually happen, but the eventually is kind of the glitch. Resident: I heard this gentleman, I don't know who he is but saying something about referendum to pay for the park. Lash: Well if the task force puts together a referendum passage, it would be to encompass a lot of different projects in the city and what we could do is tag the money to facilitate to put those big ticket items in at a sooner time. We could do that and that is a possibility. If it isn't put in, then we don't know when it would ever happen. If it is put in, it could be done fairly quickly so it's going to be a judgment call as to how soon people out there would like to see those things put into the park. Manders: And that's really exactly it. It's the timing issue. If there isn't the sentiment to get it in quicker, then there's no problem not including that and we will pay for it out of our park and trail fees. But when that happens is not yet known. Hoffman: It's a public question for decision. Lash: So basically it gives you the choice of how you'd like to see it. Hoffman: I would like to state that the commission will certainly welcome rebuttal comments but I would prefer.., podium to the microphone. Nancy Wenzel: Nancy Wenzel. This, working on this committee, with each mailing that came out, committee member names would come back.., and I had several calls from people who lived around the area of Minnewashta Parkway asking how this would be funded. And I was told, and in turn I told them it would be through park fees, and I specifically asked if there was going to be any increase in taxes and I was told no. And I told them no. And I think, I'm not saying we don't want the park and don't want the things. I mean it's nice to have everything yesterday but by the same token, I think you have to be responsible for what you say and I think once you tell people things like this. You've got to be responsible to it or else you have to definitely let them know where the error in communication was and how these things are going to be different. This is just a matter of people having credibility with the system, and that concerns me a lot. Lash: That's a good point Nancy. Thank you. Were there any other comments? Again, we thank you all so much for your input and working so hard. I'd be interested to know if one of the first things we'll move forward with is the playground, if there are strong feelings. I mean typically we move forward and pick out what we think is a typical play lot. If there's anyone who feels strongly that they have direction for us, we'd welcome any of your direction as to equipment, age range, colors, whatever. If you really don't care, then we'll take care of it but if you feel strongly about it, then we can take your input on that. Resident: Are you asking for that right now? 29 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Lash: No. No. No. You guys talk it over. If you come up with ideas, then call so we know. Okay, thank you very much. We'll move onto the next item on the agenda. FIRST ANNUAL REVIEW; CHANHASSEN RECREATION CENTER POLICIES. Patty Dexter presented the staff report. Scott: Have there been any requests? Dexter: I don't know. Mike, maybe can help me out with this. Have there been a lot of requests as far as the, for alcohol? Mike: Alcohol requests? Dexter: Yeah. Mike: I'm Mike... So far I've maybe had one question asked about whether or not alcohol could be, they were talking about a wedding reception and it wasn't going to be the maker or the breaker if they were going to choose the Rec Center or not so I don't think that has come up very often. Lash: You don't think we've had a huge loss of revenue because of it? Are you looking for a motion on each one of these things? Dexter: Well, and I have to apologize. I realize this isn't a format that you are typically used to seeing so I will work on that. I guess yeah, I don't know how you would want to handle this. Lash: I think we should go item by item. Can someone make a motion on this alcohol policy? Manders: I'd move that we continue the non-alcohol policy. Berg: Second. Lash: Do you want to review again? Manders: Next year if you want. Lash: Second to that? Berg: Second. Manders moved, Berg seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission reconunends that there be no alcohol consmnption allowed at the Chanhassen Recreation Center and request that the policy be reviewed next year. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: The facility fees policy. 30 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Dexter: That one, last year it was that it would be available for the school districts for free and I just needed clearer clarification on that. Is that free regardless of the room that they use and the use that they come to us for? I have on occasion charged them for a workshop where we have made arrangements to have, before school child care and.., so we charged them. They were somewhat surprised but we went ahead and did it so I would like some further clarification on exactly... Howe: Do they do anything for us? I mean that sounds crass but I mean, do we use their facilities or do they reciprocate? Hoffman: We use theirs for free? Howe: We do? Hoffman: Yeah. With the exception of the building monitor, which is how much an hour? Ruegemer: It's going up above $9.50-$10.00 an hour... Hoffman: Ten bucks an hour and then the kitchen.., so there are some costs but the building itself is free. Berg: We use District #112's facilities free right? Hoffman: And 276. 276 we use them, correct. Lash: I was pretty blown away by the... I know we had a really pretty philosophical discussion before this placed opened and I was really a strong one saying you know why should taxpayers have to pay to use something that they, you know that the public and that their money. But on the other hand, we're not raking it in, you know. We're not, I don't think we reached our goal of what was is, 50% this year or something. Hoffman: Haven't reached it yet. Lash: With projections. I mean what was it, I mean we've got September. We've got four months left. So you think that we will at this rate? I don't know, I suppose that's hard to predict. Hoffman: I hope that we will. It's about $55,000.00 yet to go, depending on how good a months we have in September. Lash: $55,000.00 leftto go? Hoffman: Yeah. We're about halfway.., five months. September, October, November, December are the strong months in my opinion. 31 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Lash: So that's four months. So that's over $10,000.00 a month. Hoffman: Correct. Currently we're averaging about $8,000.00 a month. Lash: Didn't somebody say last time that somewhere in another town or something that they had a deal where you could book it but ifa paying customer came in within 7 days or 10 days or something, you got bumped? Hoffman: We talked about that in Eden Prairie Town Center. Lash: What kind of reception would we get if we did something like that. Would they go. Meger: Patty, did you say you brought in child care and. Dexter: We are providing before school child care for the students at Bluff Creek. So they're renting out our room from 7:00 to 9:00... and they are getting charged for that. Meger: And school is providing the before.., the supervisor of. Dexter: The school district. Meger: Okay. I just wanted to, I was wondering if we were providing the room and the supervision or just the room. Lash: Are you experiencing where you're turning down paying customers because it's been booked for free? Mike: I can elaborate on that. Most of the school district rentals per se have been morning/ afternoon rentals. I wouldn't say it's taking away any paying customers. I think most of the time all of us at the center will go out of our way to make sure a paying customer's accommodated. We're well aware of our goals, but the school district per se, they're pretty easy as far as room rental. We don't have very often rented out the whole community room area but it has become apparent that that is changing. They might have these large workshops there. That's where our concern came up as far as the charges would go. And as for turning down a paying customer, I think we would be more apt to call the person in charge of the school district meetings and say we have a paying customer that's going to rent three of these rooms. Is there any way you can reschedule or we could accommodate you some other way and that's usually the way we look at it. Lash: Okay. So as for your in-house free rentals, that's not all the district. Some of that's city. Mike: Some from the city, that's correct. Dexter: And the CAA. 32 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Berg: Has anybody's minds been made by charging for costs over and above the use of the room, for example the daycare or the kitchen. Having to hire a janitor. Have we charged for that? Is there a significant income from that? Dexter: Well I know that Eden Prairie, they have quite a set-up fee so, and I suppose that would maybe the same like the school district having a building monitor... Berg: So it's consistent with what the school district's doing for us. Dexter: Yeah... Lash: So a set-up fee would be basically to set up a room would be maybe an hour. So you'd charge, I don't know. Hoffman: ... would be appropriate... Lash: Just a set-up fee or $10.00 an hour or how would you do that? Hoffman: It would be a set-up administration fee. Lash: Per room? Hoffman: Because really the costs associated with booking... Lash: So much would be a reasonable amount to charge for that? Hoffman: Well... we would also charge the Park Commission and the Bluff Creek Task Force, the City Council. All those other organizations. Lash: Well you know, I mean the City Council has one really concern with not meeting the goal so you know, it's a way for us to help get closer to that so I would like to think they'd be. Hoffman: Yeah. I'm more concerned about consistency.., charge. Lash: Do you want to work on coming up with a fee and come back to us? Okay. Would that, should we do the warming house too with that? Meger: ... I talked about if we have co-sponsoring them. That would involve the Halloween program. If we co-sponsored that with maybe the Chamber of Commerce, do we do a reduced rate to the, we open our doors to them? Hoffman: 50%. It's difficult because you're percentage of involvement may range from 99.9% to 2% because of... Lash: In the past what have they done? 33 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Ruegemer: The program.., in all previous years we have been operating that program.., out of the school district facility. Last year.., program, I think a conservative estimate was close to, I think over 1,000 to 1,200 people last year. Bluff Creek was the first year that we've used that. Last year in the cafeteria.., we've already outgrown that site again for this year. So estimates now... anywhere from probably 1,300 or 1,500 served this year on December 8th for that program. The Rec Center has been tentatively booked for that. Where the breakfast then will be served in all four community rooms for that. And that could accommodate more people at one time to get the.., you know people come through to be served with the pancakes so it can accommodate more people at one time. Hoffman: I think Jerry explained the problem. Lash: I was going to say, but that was the question... Hoffman: ... to answer that question is that is completely arbitrary. Lash: In the past they've paid nothing? Hoffman: No. Up here. In the past joint rental, joint programs at the Rec Center has been arbitrary. Just depends on if we think we can get some cash out of them, we'll go for it. If we don't... Berg: Why don't we just decide then to divide it up percentage wise by whoever's involved. If there's two groups that are getting it for free, and one that isn't, they paid a third. Just make that the blanket. Lash: But nobody's going to get in for free, are they? Everyone has to pay set-up fee now, don't they? Berg: I'm talking just about the use of the room. Hoffman: The rental fee. Lash: Oh! Berg: If we go in with the Chamber, the Chamber pays 50% of what they would pay if they were paying the whole thing. Lash: Even if they do 90% of it and we only do, we just tack on name on it? Berg: Yes. Lash: Okay. That makes it easy. 34 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Berg: No interpretation. It's black or white. Dexter: Thank you. Then I will.., recommendation for the next meeting. Lash: Okay. Then do you want to do the wanning house too at this time? It's kind of the same thing. For the proposed... The wanning house at Bluff Creek. Ruegemer: No. There has been. These are brand new fees that have been established at this point. Dexter: We have not rented it. Lash: We have not what? Dexter: We have not rented it. Hoffman: ... the contract states, if they need to take out the concrete pad, which they.., underneath the picnic building and move that... Lash: So which of these things do you think it would fall under? A pavilion? Ruegemer: There's actually, these are all components of that building. There's a separate pavilion. There's, the way Patty and I proposed it, you can either have a kitchen. You could include the kitchen in, on the rentals, and then the multi-purpose room was inside the building itself.., where the wanning house is in the winter time, with a rubber floor. People could potentially use it for some type of a meeting space or some other type of a use. Then the building itself is... and just talked about just outside to the west side of the building where there's the overhang and we view that as another picnic site. If people wanted to go out there for some type of a company function or... picnic tables, garbage cans, that type of thing and people then could use the amenities that were at the facility currently. And then the kitchen could be used either for the pavilion rentals or for the multi-purpose center inside. Meger: All right, here's my stupid question. Is this more for summer rental or would this, I mean in the winter is it pretty much strictly a wanning house or are you talking, is there a possibility that somebody could go out there and rent it for an entire Saturday in the winter and have a big skiing party and then. Hoffman: Depending...that's a possibility. They could...majority would be summer, spring, summer and fall. Lash: Okay, here's my stupid question. If it's $5.00 for multi-purpose room and $5.00 for the pavilion, oh that's hourly. Okay, never mind. Well I just think $100.00 sounds like a lot for that. I don't really think... Howe: What's a day, 8 hours? 35 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Ruegemer: On the average. See this is a, on the average I kind of based this hourly kind of basis on an average picnic. An average picnic probably, we figured 5 hours roughly. And that's what we kind of tried to base our analysis on, or develop of these fees. These fees were divided from half picnic and halfrec center fees and it was kind of a common ground and try to do a little bit analysis of each and what we did, just a straight hourly without the average rental, because some of these were $500.00 once you got through processing those and we certainly want to be within the right ballpark here. So we tried to take a look at, you know what is a non-Chanhassen business paying for the pavilion at Lake Ann? What are they paying for at Lake Susan? We tried to kind of factor in the amenities that were involved in all three locations .... we don't have a lake close here, and that factored into the equation as well. But we have a lot of other amenities that we feel are part of the site. Hoffman: It's a unique facility. You're not going to see a lot of neighborhood picnics take place here but you might see some, a company training date where they would utilize the indoor space for training and utilize the exterior space for.., and luncheon.., so it is unique in that respect. Jerry, Patty and I have not had the opportunity to discuss this in detail. I'd like to hear their reasoning beyond a common need. Personally I would just as soon see those lines A, we don't need, there's not a lot of difference there. They are in fact a non-profit organization. Lash: Basically they're supposed to get it for free to start with, aren't they? Hoffman: Well, we've moved outside of the recreation and we've moved outside of the building. We charge them when they come down to Lake Ann pavilion or Lake Susan so. Lash: I would agree that they should be... Ruegemer: Okay, going through the process. Patty did have the School District's in... and I talked to Ron... but we were just trying to stay consistent with the picnic fees. Lash: Okay, is there a motion on this? Someone, come on. Meger: I make a motion that we accept the proposed rental rates for the warming house and out building of Chanhassen Recreation Center with the change that Category D would be eliminated and be included as part of Category A. Lash: Is there a second? Roeser: Second. Meger moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to accept the proposed rental rates for the warming house and out building of Chanhassen Recreation Center with the change that Category D would be eliminated and be included as part of Category A. All voted in favor and the motion carried. 36 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Manders: My only comment on this is that.., realizes that that facility was this big and had this many components to it. I've seen it a number of times but obviously looked through it and not realized what was in it. Hoffman: Do we have a motion on the other page? Or do we already have one? Lash: We did that. Ruegemer: Were those acceptable dates for the wanning house operation, with everybody? Just kind of taking that on an average... Lash: Oh yeah. However somebody said, well what if somebody wanted to book it for like a skating party or something. Hoffman: Private party. After normal operating hours you'd be able to do it, sure. Lash: After 9:00 at night? Hoffman: Well, 9:00 to 10:00... we wouldn't want to do that. But after closing down the attendants, I look at Sunday. Ruegemer: 7:00. Hoffman: 7:00, yeah. It'd be fight for private rental. Lash: So you wouldn't just, if someone called and said I want to book the whole thing for Saturday, you wouldn't say okay? Hoffman: We wouldn't want to make public policy saying that we would restrict our public hours to allow for the potential of revenue generation... But we could do that you know. We could schedule something for 4:00 on Sundays for the public and then allow it, advertise that as private time from 4:00 to 9:00. Lash: I can see where that would be a nice thing for birthday parties and stuff in the winter. I really would. Or for Scouts or different things. It may be a way of generating some. Hoffman: Jerry can take a look at the schedule. Ruegemer: ... will also be on the September agenda too, to take a look at too so we can discuss that more. Berg: We're sort of entering dangerous territory here. I mean maybe I want to reserve the tennis court for my birthday party. I think we have to be careful that we don't, the bottom line doesn't concern us here. In terms of renting these things out. 37 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Hoffman: Yeah, we're just working.., that would make it similar to renting the pool at the high school or things. Basic amenities we are, staff is a finn believer in basic amenities and then you know the specialty things that can generate revenue... Lash: Okay. PROGRAM REPORTS: A. SUMMER PROGRAM EVALUATION. Lash: Summer of 1996 evaluation. Here's the after action reports. Are there, can we, let's see if we can make this concise. Will you be off'ended if we whip through this? Dexter: No. Lash: Okay. Does anyone have questions or comments about any of the programs or the recommendations that Patty's made? Howe: It sounds to be a very good program. Meger: The only question I have is when you look at next year, do you look at all, how do you make the decision as to whether off'er it again next year? Is it by the number of participants? Dexter: It is... in general. We look at the numbers. Meger: I just was looking at for instance Summer Sensations. You know there was 21 participants and a net gain of $5.83. I'm not saying it should be eliminated but. Hoffman: We look at both the numbers and then the real potential and what our values lie. Playground is a basic level service and we're not going to make money on it. Lash: You did question if you should off'er it at Herman Field and Pheasant Hills again because of the low. Dexter: Yeah. Your thoughts on that? We would like maybe to go to another new site and.., put together a recommendation. Lash: I mean how would you even know how to guess to where would be a good spot? Dexter: You know last time, I took these phone calls on neighbors, on parents wanting to thank me for the Discovery program and... Lash: See I look at Round House Park as a potential site. It's so isolated. Hoffman: Absolutely. 38 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Lash: It wouldn't be ready next year though. Well I guess I, you know maybe we even want to look at and say, well if you have 10 or less, you know come up with some kind of a number so you don't have to screw around with it every year. Hoffman: Come up with a standard and I would do it on two years. Two or three years. Lash: Or even at registration time. If you only have, if you have less than 10 kids that register, I'd cancel it. Hoffman: Okay. Lash: But is 10, I mean I'm just throwing out a number. I have no idea what you think would be. Dexter: Well it is hard to run a program with only 10 kids and 5 are 3 year olds and 5 are 11, it's very difficult. But we would do it. Lash: Well what do you think would be a number, a cut off'? Dexter: 10...that would be a good number. Lash: So if you had fewer than 10 or fewer than 127 Which? Dexter: 10. I'm comfortable with that. Berg: The very first time it happens or? Lash: No, at registration time. If she has less than 10 kids that register for that particular site, pull the plug on it. Roeser: That's kind of something she has to decide I think. You know, if it's 9 or 10 enthusiastic kids, then you do it. I don't know if you need a recommendation from us for that. I mean you can usually tell ifa program is working or ifa place is working right. Dexter: I would be looking more for next year. When would the schedule... I think once the schedule is set, it is nice to be able to off'er it, especially for the staffing. You know the staff is going to put x amount of hours in. It's a little easier to run a program that way. So maybe if you have recommendations on new parks or if you don't have, you can just select parks and.., my recommendations at a later date or maybe in April. Berg: I guess I'd rather have 10 people telling the neighbors how wonderful a program it was than having 10 say oh gee, they cancelled it. 39 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Manders: Just a couple comments. One gets back to tennis again. It appears like there's a fairly successful program. 160 people involved in it. The question is related to where it takes place. Is it City Center here? Ruegemer: Here. Manders: How does the new Bluff Creek facility tie in to potentially expanding this? I guess demand is whatever it is. I'm assuming you're not short on facilities, or was facility space an issue? Dexter: No, it was not. Manders: Okay. Dexter: ... a year or two the development that is down there... Manders: The other comment I guess I have is, there's a lot of numbers here and personally for the next time, if we had some type of comparison to last year's revenues, just to see change. That mightbe helpful. If it's something that's successful. Dexter: And... every program and I can... Lash: Okay, thanks. Any other questions? B. SENIOR CENTER. Lash: The next item was just an update on the Senior Center activities. Anybody have questions or comments about that? Hoffman: ... Senior Center. We've received word that the Senior Linkage Line, the coordinator position, Kitty Sitter will not be funded by the.., so it will be a Carver County Board decision... and I'm sure it will be placed before the City Council. If they choose to fund a portion or all... C. FALL ADULT SOFTBALL. D. FALL ADULTVOLLEYBALL. E. 1996HALLOWEENPARTY. Ruegemer: Really my items are just FYI's at this time. Unless there's any specific questions.., the Halloween Party. A letter did go out to service organization groups looking for volunteers and.., get some calls on a lot of groups volunteering. Ranging from Girl Scouts to realtors to service organizations. 40 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 ADMINISTRATION REPORTS: A. PROJECT SCHEDULES. Lash: How about the project schedule from Todd. Anyone have questions or comments about that? Other than I have no idea what this means at all. I have no idea what you're trying to tell us here. None. Hoffman: ... this is directly out of the budget. What you funded for capital projects so if you look under the circled 1996 and you go down to where we have the half parenthesis here. The highlighted or the bolded areas talk about Chanhassen Recreation Center. You have $30,000.00 in contingency. That's been transferred to the Lake Ann lighting project. Lake Ann Ballfield Lighting Project was on last night's City Council agenda. And Commissioner Scott will provide an update on that during presentations. Lash: But is this what we've spent? Hoffman: No. What you've spent. Where the project is. What happened to it. How it's going. Just an update. Lash: Okay. B. STONE CREEK PLAYGROUND INSTALLATION. Hoffman: Similar with Stone Creek park update. This will allow you to be aware of the correspondence which has taken place. C. DIRECTOR'S REPORT. Hoffman: ... St. Hubert's soccer field. It's more comical than anything else. Concorde, Massachusetts, the history signs...Osgood of the historical committee is responsible. Mr. Osgood did call me back today and say he was back in town. However, I'm heading to New Hampshire and you can reach me at this number starting tomorrow. Lash: ... tell him about your senior. Berg: Yeah, the Senior Men's Club. I asked them if they thought a project and they were very, very eager to get involved. They said the Centennial, the historical commission, whatever. They've got all the information we need so it's just a matter of saying if we want to do it and how much it will cost. Hoffman: ... about that. And in addition, if you were not aware, your Chair and Co-Chair did have an opportunity to speak to the Men's Club and.., very active dialogue I think for the most part and a good public relations venture for the Park and Recreation Commission so... The last item is again an FYI the Minnetonka Regional Park is coming on line. An 11 year project is up 41 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 and running at a cost of $17 million. You're not the only ones working hard on park issues, and thank goodness for that. Lash: Will we be able to schedule a trip up there sometime? Hoffman: Sure. Lash: Anybody else interested? I'd like to see it. Howe: Who's Veme Gagne? Who is he? Roeser: He's a wrestler. Hoffman: Vem Gagne. Berg: World Wrestling. Hoffman: He was out of town at the time weren't you? The back page, the referendum task force. And again.., updates from the commissioners on that. The Task Force and the recreation Center building and grounds punch list. It's been a frustrating process. The recreation center. You know it was a decision to delay the activities out there by a year because we knew we'd have some clean-up. I never expected that we'd have this much clean-up and now we face the potential of going into the second year not having a lot of the issues resolved. You're not going to have all the trees on site. You're not... Lash: Okay. Are there commission member presentations? COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: Howe: Stone Creek Park... built it. It's great. I'm sorry I missed the last meeting. It was a mistake. I was home and fine. One thing, I've been at Lake Ann Park quite a bit. That's beautiful now. My kids love the playground. This is probably a sad statement about people but I noticed, my wife has commented on this a couple times. Where the playground is, there's a bunch of trash cans that extend pretty much along the beach. The two times I've been there, and when my wife's been there, there aren't any garbage cans near the playground and there's always a lot of garbage on the playground and it amazes me that people can't walk 20 feet to drop their pop can or their garbage but if there's a way we could put a garbage can.., that's all I have. Lash: Any other questions or comments? Meger: Bluff Creek task force.., you should have all gotten your draft copy and got a meeting coming up here, I believe it's next Wednesday with the City Council to talk about the entire project. There's still a few more meetings to push it through to have it become sort of the.., but yeah, I think it looks really good. 42 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Hoffman: Kate Aanenson, the Planning Director is expecting your attendance... Scott: Yes. I was at the Council meeting last night and they brought up the Lake Ann lights review. The first time it came up they were worried about taking the $30,000.00 from the Rec Center and moving it to the contingency fund.., and they asked Todd to go back and estimate the cost of the lighting project more. Came back last night with an estimate and during the discussion with Council, the one Council member was basically wasn't interested. Didn't play softball and... Another Council member wanted to take the Lion's money and do one park and not the other one. So I did get up and make, I told that when the $30,000.00's been discussed here, people from the Rec Center have been here and said it was okay. They had no need for it this year and we can move it. And we talked about the fact that the Lions are getting too involved here for the price of lighting one park because the Lions are going to... They did vote it in before 11:00 but it took like... Lash: So a good thing you were there. Scott: Yeah, and I guess it's important that somebody's there because otherwise we could have had a problem .... recommendation but they didn't like that I guess. Lash: Okay... Fred. Berg: I don't have anything. I just worked on the interview questions and I'll give you a copy of this to look at, but there's nothing profound here at all. Lash: I didn't work on it but I... Ron? Roeser: No. Lash: Jim. Manders: The park task force. We're back in the swing of things. Hoffman: You're pretty popular with this guy. Roeser: I thought he just didn't understand what you were saying. Lash: Well, he totally had a chip on his shoulder. We didn't go with what he wanted. Manders: ... but the point is, there's a lot of other people that disagreed with him. Lash: I don't think he was representative of the task force. I think he was representing his own personal... Manders: Exactly. I could have said that but I figured it wasn't going to get me anyplace. 43 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Lash: Okay, so on the administrative packet, anything? I agree with Fred... I'd be interested in hearing at maybe some other time, from the newer members, what kinds of questions they think would be intelligent. Oh, this was in our packet? You know I had someone comment, not this particular problem but that they feel that the lifeguards should be spending more time maintaining you know in raking and making the beach look attractive. I don't know if that's supposed to be part of their job or. Hoffman: Not unless it's before or after duty. When they're on guard. Lash: Like if there's nobody swimming and they're just sitting there. Hoffman: Well, Jerry and I will talk about that. Roeser: Yeah, I've seen them sitting without a person in the water. You know whether they are or not, it seems to me they could rake. But that's just... But they're responsible for keeping the beach clean and looking good or are they only responsible for. Hoffman: They're only responsible for... Lash: I mean I'll take, my daughter lifeguards at the Rec Center. The Community Center. She has to do windows. She has to do, I mean you name it, the rails. They do lots and lots of. Roeser: Of course they probably 2 or 3 on at the same time, right? Lash: Well yeah, they do. Well they do at Lake Ann too. Were there any, did you want to say anything more about this letter? Hoffman: No... Lash: Is there anyone else, did anybody have any other things about this? Manders: About the packet? Lash: Yes. Manders: I guess just recognizing the comments made for Dean, I believe it was. Park Foreman and commendation. It's encouraging to see. Lash: I just have a comment for you, I suppose it's for you Jerry. Personally I don't care about the standings of the baseball teams... Are you real interested in it? It's in the paper, isn't it? Normally. Well I'd say... Okay. Anybody have anything else? Motion to adjourn. 44 Park and Rec Commission - August 27, 1996 Manders moved, Roeser seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 45