1994 09 27 Agenda
.
FILE
AGENDA
CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION LUMMlSSION
TUESDA Y, SEPTEMBER 27, 1994, 7:30 P.M.
CHANHASSEN CITY HALL, 690 COULTER DRIVE
ROLL CALL
APPROV AL OF AGENDA (Commissioners may add or delete items at this time.)
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS
1. Visitor Presentations
Commission Procedures
UNFINISHED BUSINESS
2. Consider request of Southwest Metro Trail Association to utilize Southwest
Regional Light Rail Transit route as a snowmobile route.
3. Review recommendations to the City Council to consider a 1995 Park, Open
Space and Trail Acquisition and Development Referendum.
4. Proposed Stockdale Land Acquisition.
. NEW BUSINESS
.
5. Officially name the new city recreation building being constructed in
connection with the new District 112 elementary school at Hwy. 5 and Galpin
Blvd.
6. Establish 1994\95 skating rink program.
7. Program Reports
a. Lake Ann Park concessions and equipment rental.
b. Senior Center fall activities.
c. Consider amendments to ballfield reservation and use policy regarding
use of neighborhood ballfields and weekend reservation.
8.
Administrative Presentations
a. Trail Construction Report
1. Powers Blvd (CRI7) North.
2. Powers Blvd (CR 17) South.
3. Chanhassen EstateslRice Marsh Lake.
4. Hwy. 5 to Lake Ann Park.
5. Lake Susan Park to Lake Susan Hills West, 9th Addition.
~
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Lake Susan Park to Chanhassen Hills.
The Meadows at Longacres.
Trotters Ridge.
North Lotus Lake Park/Pleasant View.
Rice Marsh Lake to Lake Susan Reconstruction.
.
b. Restoration of degraded wetland located southwest of Lake Susan in
City Parkland.
9. Commission Member Presentations
10. Approval of July 26 and August 23, 1994 Park and Recreation
Commission Minutes.
.
.
.
.
.
CITY OF
CHAHHASSEH
:J-
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Park and Recreation Commission
/'#
FROM:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
DATE:
September 20, 1994
SUBJ:
Consider Request of Southwest Metro Trail Association to Utilize Southwest
Regional Light Rail Transit Route as a Snowmobile Trail
This item was heard by the city council on A 2, 1994. The ensuing discussion and
testimony was quite lengthy, resulting in the c 17 pages of verbatim minutes. The
attached staff report labeled item No.7, whiqh detai>the Park and Recreation Commission's
actions in this regard, was presented to the~ty counc;~. prior to their meeting. A second
packet of information, which I believe all'()f you receiy~, was disseminated by LeRoy
Biteler, a member of the Chanhassen S9~wmobile Clubi;. The original report presented to the
commission and the resulting minutes~ also attached r your review. On the evening of
August 22, the city council tabled tl)~request of the Sou west Metro Trail Association
awaiting further resolution by theeark and Recreation C . ssion. The city council also
requested that this issue be re(~rted back to Hennepin Par if appropriate. Hennepin Parks,
however, will only be oper",ting trail activities (hiking and .... 'ng) during the spring, summer,
and fall seasons, e~s~mtia1I)'.t\pril.l thr?~gh NovelTIl>er.l.~.......~e attached Hennepin Parks
Southwest Regional LR.T?rrau..<Jottidors.OpetationaltPlanlSated August 1994 specifically
states:
Requests for wint~rtt~l.activities must be submitted in wlj~l,lgto
Hennepin Parks by the citypriposi~~ th~,~~y.t.);!{~pproval may be
granted through a special permit fr9PI J!ennepin Parks. For example, the
City of Minnetonka has indicated i~ii~!ent to continue snow removal to
allow for winter walking within its ~ndaries. If approved, proposed
winter activities, i.e. hiking, skiing, snowmobiling, must be supported by a
certificate of insurance including a "hold harmless" clause. Hennepin
Parks retains the authority to revoke a special permit at any time.
Park and Recreation Commission
September 20, 1994
Page 2
.
Signage, maintenance and enforcement for approved winter activities will
be the responsibility of the sponsoring community. Signs for approved
winter activities must be removed by April 1.
RECOMMENDATION
In light of the overwhelming amount of information which has been distributed on this issue
to date, I have purposely refrained from creating more. Testimony and discussion has already
been heard by the commission and city council. The commission may elect to hear further
comment in this area; however, it may better serve the cause to restrict comments to the
commission on the 27th. Comments from those persons who have not yet had an opportunity
to speak; however, should be welcomed. A motion acting on the Snowmobile Club's request,
either in the affirmative or negative, is being sought from the commission for passage onto
the city council.
pc:
Karen Bowen, Hennepin Parks, 12615 County Road 9, Plymouth, MN 55441
Mike Liddicoat, Carver County Parks
Tom Redman, City of Chaska
Bob Lambert, City of Eden Prairie
LeRoy Biteler, Southwest Metro Trail Association
.
.
.
.
.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
CONSIDER REQUEST OF SOUTHWEST METRO TRAIL ASSOCIA nON TO UTILIZE
SOUTHWEST REGIONAL LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT ROUTE AS A SNOWMOBILE TRAIL.
Mayor Chmiel: In lieu of Todd not being here, are you going to do it.
Todd Gerhardt: Included in your packet was a memo from Todd Hoffman that was very detailed in the
background of staff and the Park Commission's review of this request. And you may also notice that the Park
Commission did not come to a formal recommendation to the City Council. That it was a 3 to 3 vote in
determining if this should be a snowmobile trail or not. With that, at this time I'd like to highlight the proposed
route and then invite Mr. Leroy Biteler to come up and make a formal presentation to the City Council and then
open it up for public comment. On the overhead you'll notice that the existing route for the snowmobile club
are highlighted with the dark black lines and the proposed routes that the association is asking for are the dark
lines with the black dots. As they fall along alignments for around Lake Riley and then down to the railroad
bed. That route is no longer an option as I am aware of this because Eden Prairie City Council has denied
access through their city. A second alternative to that route would be the route coming down through private
property, down to Pioneer Trail going east across TH 10 1 to the railroad bed area. This would be highlighted
with just black dots. There's also a third route which would be vacated and that is highlighted with a black line
with the slashes through them that goes on private property south of Lyman and then down County Road 17 to
Audubon. At this time I would invite Leroy to come up and make his presentation and then again open it up for
some comments...
Leroy Biteler: Good evening. My name is Leroy Biteler, 910 Penamint Court, Chanhassen and I've also invited
Mike up here to help me a little bit with the presentation. I'll let him introduce himself.
Mike Farkas: My name is Mike Farkas. I live at 7501 Chippewa Trail in Chanhassen. Leroy and I have been
working together on this project and we're going to just try explain a little bit more in detail about it.
Leroy Biteler: Mike is the expert on the map so when it comes to map questions, I'll definitely be turning
things over to him. Did you receive and have an opportunity to read through the packet that I mailed to each of
you? Do you have that packet or do you need an additional, that information? I have extras.
Mayor Chmiel: If you have extras, why don't you just pass those out.
Leroy Biteler: Okay. While he's passing those out I'd just like to tell you how I'm going to present to you
tonight. Basically you know our objective is to be able to get to the southwest or the trail system in Chaska
from Chanhassen via the railroad bed. What I'd like to do is tell you what happened in Chaska with respect to
the railroad bed. What happened in Eden Prairie with respect to the railroad bed and oW' alternative routes. I'd
like to review the objections from the people that live along this railroad bed and support some of their
objections with...part of the information that I have collected with respect to sound and some other things. So
and then at the end I have about a 7 or 8 minute video that videos the railroad bed. I'd like you to look at that
with respect with snowmobiling in mind so you can see from a snowmobilers eyes or...what it looks like along
the bluff area and how high the bluffs are and where the homeowners live and how close they might be in
relation to the creek. And that would basically be the end of my presentation. Some of the things will be
repetitive from what's in the letter but I think some of the people that are here need to be aware of some of the
information that I have gathered. Chaska Park and Recreation Board has elected to approve the use of the
railroad bed in Chaska. That will be going to the City Council on an upcoming date. I don't know the time.
Eden Prairie as of last Monday night had rejected oW' proposal to use the railroad bed which entails about .5 of a
12
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
.
mile in Eden Prairie for this year. They rejected that basically due to $30,000.00 worth of seed that they will be
putting down and $30,000.00 includes seed and labor that they'll be putting down in the park area out by Lake
Riley. And just with the thought of possibly somebody going across that and trespassing that area, they would
elect not to do anything this year with snowmobiles down in that general area. They did however say that they
would like to look at this again in '95. They would like to provide an area for the residents of Eden Prairie to
be able to access the trail system. That's what Eden Prairie would like. So with that in mind we hope to attend
their Council meetings coming up sometime in September. The date is unknown. See what we can do at that
point again. So with that happening in Eden Prairie, that gave us the thought that we need to come up with what
we call a dry route. A dry route meaning you can get there whether it's a lake that's frozen or not, meaning
Lake Riley and since we couldn't cross Lake Riley this year because of the Eden Prairie denial, the dry route
would be the route we would like to use this year and I'd like Mike just to kind of highlight on the map the
route that we are looking to use as the dry route.
Mike Farkas: The dry route, it continues down CR 117, which was our original trail and then it would cross
private property here onto Pioneer Trail which will then take us east over to the border of Eden Prairie in
Chanhassen and we will drop down right basically in Chanhassen by a bridge that crosses over the old railroad
bed there. That's the location where we've chosen because everything else in these areas here of Bluff Creek is
a little bit more unaccessible by snowmobile as far as the ditches go. And it's our most possible or safest route
as far as giving us the most room in the ditch to get us over to that railroad. We're working with the
landowners at this time to secure the permission to get across their property. We haven't had enough time
because of we thought that Eden Prairie would let us through across Riley. We had obtained permission to get
on Riley in Chanhassen over some private property but that didn't quite work for this year. Maybe next year.
One other thing I would like to mention. On this map there's a few extra trails that we've given up to secure
our trail in Chaska through to get our railroad bed approved down there. Last year we had lost our whole trail
section here to Victoria which is 82nd Street. We still have our trail to this time onto Minnewashta over to
Victoria so basically what we're looking for is two trails out of town. One to the southern route to get us to the
river bottom, which is a state trail. One is to the west so it can get us out to the west trails and to the north up
to the Luce Line, which gets us out to Hutchinson, Watertown and those areas. This is, we're just basically
trying to funnel the people out of town and give them a way to access these trails. It's not like we have trails all
over any more. We basically just have two trails left at this time. However, we have one trail now. We're
trying to get two because we had lost that one...to the State trails in Chaska. We gave that trail up to the...
.
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Leroy Biteler: ...to give them the education so that they can ride snowmobiles. There's a piece in there that
talks about the sound in decibels of snowmobiles. In 1975 snowmobiles were determined that they could not
exceed 78 decibels. What that means so that you have an understanding of sound in decibels a little bit. In this
piece of information they talked about conversation at 3 feet is 70 decibels. They say an automobile at 50 feet
away, stepping on the gas is 84 decibels. A truck at highway speeds is 90 decibels. Inside an airplane is 100
decibels. Now how does that compare with snowmobiles? Snowmobiles were looked at from 1975 to 1989 in
one area of this report. Snowmobiles traveling between 10 and 20 mph, the decibels ranged from 65 to 73.
Keep in mind, conversation is 70. Snowmobiles between 1975 and 1989 I reiterate were at the top, at full
throttle, 78 decibels. There may be a few that are louder. Some of the older models but basically we're talking
from 75 to 89 and that's probably most of the machines that are out there right now. If you want to back up to
1969 for instance, go back to an older model snowmobile. At full throttle the decibel of that machine was 92.
In 1970 they came down to 86. The Shorewood trail which runs from Lake Minnetonka out to Victoria. There
was some sound considerations, problems that were thought to be. The Southwest Trail took it upon themselves
13
.
.
.
.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
to do a very specific test with respect to sound in decibels of snowmobiles. What they did is they took 10
snowmobiles with very strict regulations, I might remind you, and those snowmobiles ranged from a 1972 all the
way to 1986. At 40 mph in 1981, a snowmobile with a 340 motor, average decibel was 74.9. In 1985 decibels
were 74. Another a 1984 Phaser, decibels were 75 at 40 mph. A 1980 J, decibels were 76.8 at 40 mph. Let's
look at an older model. 1973 PX440. It was 81. That is an older model. A 1972 Chaparral. Those decibels
was 87 at 40 mph. So you can see, if you look at something from 1980 on up, those decibels range at 40 mph,
from 74 to the low end, to 78.4 at the high end at 40 mph. Those decibels go down a little bit at 30 mph. They
also did a Shorewood, they went out in the street and set up the decibel reading machine. Automobile and truck
traffic in front of the NSP circle parking lot at 50 feet from the road averaged 71.4 decibels. Traffic noise at the
intersection of County Road 19 and Country Club Road. a half a block north of the Shorewood City offices, 75
decibels. A small chainsaw averaged 83 decibels at 50 feet The last couple items on decibels. We took the
decibel meter inside a home off of the Shorewood trail. Inside the home there was 65 feet away the trail. The
sound decibels inside the home, the ambient sound within the south ranked from 32 to 58. Snowmobiles went
by that home at 30 mph, the average reading was 50.5 decibels. At 40 mph it was 66.1 decibels. You've got to
keep in mind that the ambient sound was anywhere from 32 to 58 inside the home with no snowmobiles going
by. The loudest it was when the sled went by was 66 decibels. I reiterate, sound of conversation 3 feet away is
somewhere around 70 decibels. I really think the issue of sound is behind us. I think that was in 1970. The
issue of ruining vegetation, should that come up. That was not a big issue that evening but the pressure that a
snowmobile puts on vegetation in relationship to the pressure that a person walking through the snow would put
on vegetation, in terms of pressure, the snowmobile is more gentle on vegetation than a person. In fact, it would
take 10 snowmobiles and their rider piled on top of each other to equal the pressure of one person. Again, that's
from the Minnesota Training Manual. I think the train that used to pass on this railroad bed is probably quite
louder than what we are going to create. Probably a lot more vibrations in the home as the train passes by also.
Another issue was walkers, skiers, hikers. Cross country skiers and snowmobilers don't mix. I can understand
your concern there. I suspect that we will have less traffic on that trail in the winter months than we will during
the summer months, like this past weekend. It was a beautiful weekend to be outside. That trail is 15 feet to 17
feet wide. I believe that is plenty of room for everybody to mix and have a multi purpose trail. The Shorewood
trail is a good example. The Shorewood trail between Shorewood and Victoria, I've passed many people on that
trail that are walkers more so than a cross country skier. They're allowed on that trail. The Luce Line trail.
The Luce Line trail goes through Watertown. Starts at Stubbs Bay. Actually you can get all the way out to
Hutchinson on that trail. They are allowed walkers, skiers, bikers, horseback riders, pretty much everything is
allowed on that trail system. There's a trail system down in southeastern Minnesota down by Lanesboro and I
forget the other name of the city. It's down by Lanesboro of which they have an 8 foot wide trail, paved which
allows snowmobiles, cross country skiers, bicyclists and hikers. I'd like to pass a photograph around. That
photograph is from the river trail down by Lanesboro. You'll notice that there are two signs there. One sign
says no motorized vehicles except snowmobilers. On the other side you will see that they have a bicyclist, a
hiker and a cross country skier. These kinds of things do exist in Minnesota. We are not asking for something
out of the ordinary. If I can go back to the Luce Line trail for a moment We can pass through Watertown.
There's an article here that says, adjacent to the trail, the peak on the Luce Line trail. More and more people
are constructing their $250,000.00 homes creating this section of rural America into one more suburb. My point
here is that the homes along the trail are not losing value because of this trail. They are probably adding some
value. There's some homes that are listed for sale along the Luce Line trail in the Watertown area. They use
the trail as an asset It says very private beautiful vista of wildlife, wetland on the Luce Line. Wooded acre on
the Luce Line trail. The issue of the trail decreasing your property values. it's more of an asset than it is a
decrease. Another article from a Luce Line trail that goes through Watertown. This happens to be a newsletter
of the Luce Line Trails Association. A well groomed trail designed to handle the travels of all users. Walkers,
joggers, bicyclists, horseback riders and our winter sports. Snowmobiling and cross country skiing in harmony
14
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
can be achieved by enthusiasts who are willing to work. Our club has a membership at this time of
approximately 73 family members. We have a roster here which has been included in your packet. These
members work real hard to keep our club and to keep our club active in the community and also our trail system
tight knit as we possibly can. We encourage people to talk to people if they're doing something wrong on our
trail. We have a list of signatures on a petition. There must be 8 pages. In excess of 100 names. Not all club
members. A lot of them are not club members, that are in approval and would like us to see us have the
opportunity to ride this trail system. Some of these people live along the trail. They may be here this evening.
I'll just mention a couple names that I have talked to and that have signed our petition. Nick Evanoff, Keith
Carlson, Sue and Paul Allen, Ed Mueller, Mr. and Mrs. Sabinski, Russ Barto, Ron Mathias. Sorry if I mutilate
your name. Patty and Chris Weber. James Struble. David Metdke. These people live along the area and in the
area of this milroad bed. They are in approval of hoping to get a good access this trail out in their
neighborhood. I have a letter here from Brett Davidson, which is a previous land owner of which our trail
crosses 2 years ago. This letter, Mr. Chmiel, I don't believe got to you and the rest of you. If it did, it just
arrived very recently. I'm going to read a little bit of this letter because it is new to everybody on Council.
Brett Davidson. He lives at 7291 Galpin Blvd. I'm writing this letter to address the issue of the new proposed
snowmobile trail location. While I do not know all the particulars concerning this trail and as such cannot
address the specifics, I have had considerable dealings with the Snowmobile Club due to a snowmobile trail
being located on my property. I have never owned a snowmobile nor do I enjoy the sport so I believe my
opinion is unbiased. I have lived in Chanhassen for 8 years. For the first 6 years the snowmobile trail was
located on my property. At flfSt I was reluctant to allow the trail to be on my property but after discussing with
members of the snowmobile club I decided to allow it for a year to see the outcome. I must admit I was quite
surprised. The club was very professional and they seriously addressed all issues that were ever brought up. In
addition, it was obvious that they continually worked throughout the year to insure the trail remained in the
proper location and that the signage did not fail into disrepair. It became obvious that the vast majority of
snowmobilers was very responsible and could enjoy this sport without serious disruption to the surrounding
homes. That's the letter which you did not receive in the packet. Carver Parks recommends us in their park and
we have been in the Minnewashta Regional Park for some time. They also sent you a letter and
recommendation allowing us to use their trail. Basically supporting our club. The DNR is also supporting this
type of trail. The DNR works on these kinds of trails throughout the State of Minnesota. They have also sent
you a letter recommending the use of abandoned railroad grades as an ideal setting for this type of use as it is
already set up to function as a transportation system. In Chanhassen we have 462 registered sleds in the zip
code area 55317. Information provided to us by the DNR. We are basically providing a service to all those
people who have registered machines in our community. We provide that service. We do all the work. We
mark the trails. We do the best that we can. We'd like to continue to provide that service. Some of them are
members of our club who... Snowmobiling can be an exciting, fun family sport. Our family has snowmobiled
for 17 years. I've snowmobiled since I was my son's age. My children are here this evening, Jeff and Miranda.
We would like to keep this opportunity as a family sport to be able to do it in Chanhassen as long as possible.
Two weeks ago my daughter asked me, while I was doing all this work on the snowmobile issues. She says,
dad. Will I be able to snowmobile when I become of age to ride? Miranda, I hope so. I'm working hard at
trying to keep that opportunity for my kids and there's many other kids out there. We just want to maintain that
same opportunity. We will bring law enforcement out to this trail system. Believe it or not. Maybe you'll see
more law enforcement out on this trail system than people along that milroad bed have ever seen. I see Al
Wallin here tonight. I kind of wish he was still here. I was talking with him 2 years ago when we made
arrangements with Carver County to bring their sleds out on our trail system to patrol. Unfortunately at that
time we had a couple old Arctic Cats that could barely make it from one end of the trail to the other. As a
matter of fact one of them did fail. Now they have two new machines. We will encourage them to get out
more. The DNR will be out to help us. We will patrol it ourselves the best that we can. As we have in the
15
.
.
.
.
.
.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
past The last thing I have is I'd just like to reiterate snowmobiling is not a long season. We may feel in
Minnesota we have a snowmobile season that lasts for 6 months because it's cold for half a year. That's not
right. We're lucky if we have snow by Christmas so if we consider that we have December, January, and
February as snowmobiling months, that's probably 90 days. Out of those 90 days, and I'm going to be
conservative, let's say we have 60 days that we can ride snowmobiles. Probably about all. If that My point is
we're asking for a very small percentage of time to use that trail. If there's not snow on that trail, they aren't
going to be using it It takes snow to make these machines run properly. Otherwise you'll bum up things
underneath the track. So in our area snowmobile times are numbered. Snowmobile days are numbered. So
that's basically what I have to wrap up my presentation from the podium. Other than answering questions and I
truly would like you to see this 7 or 8 minute film with the snowmobiles on their mind as opposed to possibly
some other things when you may have been up and down the trail.
Mike Farkas: I would like to mention one thing before he starts. I don't know if any of the council members
have been on this trail. Have they been down it? Everyone's been down it then? I just hope that we look at
this as looking at these houses, there's maybe 1 or 2 that are fairly close, and they are quite a ways away.
(Leroy Biteler and Mike Farkas showed a videotape of the trail corridor at this point in the meeting.)
Mayor Chmiel: What I'd like to do before we go to questions, is to see if there are some people here who are
either in opposition or for this particular project I know that many of you may have had discussions at the PaIk
and Rec Commission and those particular Minutes that we do have in our packets show those concerns. So if
there's something new that you'd like to bring out this evening, I would entertain those positions at this time.
I'd like you to just please state your name and your address and your basic concern. If you could limit it to
roughly about 3 minutes, we'd appreciate it. Is there anyone wishing to address Council at this time? Maybe
you could just sit down and we can get back to you.
Leroy Biteler: I certainly will Mr. Chmiel. We had one other person here. The President of our club who had
just a couple comments. It would be very short. Almost basically what you're asking for now that he'd like to
comment on.
Mayor Chmiel: Sure.
Charles Littfm: Mr. Mayor. Council members. My name is Charles Littfm. I am the President of the
Snowmobile Club...particular or continue all this as a club, it helps to have trails to keep the club going. And
therefore I'd like to say that we want to be part of the community and to do that we need to have trails. I guess
basically it gets right down to it. Snowmobilers need trails. We will keep the trail going whether there are trails
or no trails and we will also continue to work with the city on the trails and other activities throughout the year
like Septemberfest and all the other activities that the city has come up with. Thank you for letting me speak.
Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Okay, I would entertain anyone who would like to come forward and express
your concerns.
Curt BardaI: My name is Curt Bardal and I live at 10301 Heidi Lane in Chanhassen. My mailing address is
Chaska and Mr. Mayor, Council members, citizens. I'd appreciate a moment. I'd like to first address the
Metro Snowmobile Association. Southwest Metro. I do appreciate your concerns. I am opposed to them. I
appreciate your concerns and I'm sensitive to your issue because you bring maturity, conscientiousness and a
safety factor to the sport that I only wish all participants brought to that sport. I do appreciate your attitudes and
16
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
.
what you bring to it and your conscientiousness. You mentioned a letter from Mr. Webber. He is a neighbor of
mine. He has snowmobiles. He has motorcycles. Rides them through the neighborhood. Maintains the
decibels. Good neighbor. Good person. Quality citizen and he participates in these activities. Also had some
other neighbors. Young fellow, dirt bike. I bet they didn't know what decibels was. Probably couldn't hear.
Enjoyed the area because of the serenity we spoke of earlier...should bring the bike off the top of the hill.
Roaring it down the street. I wish the police enforcement could still be here now because I would like to thank
them. They're always very responsive. However, enforcement is difficult when somebody is shooting off over
the hill with loud decibels. And I want to emphasize, I sympathize with you. You run a quality organization.
You obey the laws but when you open a trail like this, you open it also to those who do not necessarily abide by
those laws. You open the trails and there's a need for regulation and enforcement. Enforcement is a difficult
thing in this particular area because of the terrain. Where Hesse Farm adjoins the old railroad crossing and the
old railroad trestle, enforcement would be extremely difficult. We have in the past had a sportsmen experience
with hunters in the area. From the railroad trestle and south was an area deemed there could be hunting. From
the railroad track and north was non-hunting because it was residential. On occasion a hunter will cross that
railroad track and again I emphasize the vast majority, as in any other activity, the vast majority of hunters are
conscientious and law abiding. Wonderful individuals. Great to have a cup of coffee with and visit. See how
hunting went and any of the individuals who starts wandering up into the residential area. A few of the
neighbors have called. The police have responded and appropriately enough state that the police officers refuse
to pursue the hunter in the residential area appropriately because he was dressed in brown. There's a deer hunter
also with a gun. It'd be rather foolish to pursue this person. Now what are his reasons for going into that area,
whether it was after a wounded animal. A downed animal somewhere, we do not know. Never did find out
who the individual was. It is not an enforceable situation. This relates to snowmobiles. How do you enforce
when you have someone getting off the trail onto private property? It may not be enforceable. The terrain is
such to pursue this individual, to identify them, to correct the situation is just prohibitive in that area So I have .
a serious question number one about the regulation and how it can be enforced. I just don't see how our fme
police force could do this. A second issue is a safety issue. The area and the slopes and the bluffs below Hesse
Farm is an area that our children find an adventuresome area. Wildlife, trees, places to camp in summer. Places
to slide in the winter. They have on occasion walked along the railroad track since the train has been pulled out.
They enjoy the area but I envision twilight hours, I envision when they're down there in the evening, when
they're...evening to do some sliding. Walking along the railroad trail and here comes a snowmobiler. And in
bad visibility, we have an accident in an area that is not accessible. So safety is a great concern to me in this
area. And excuse me if I'm being redundant on issues that have already been presented but I'm new to this so
these are my feelings I'm presenting. Thirdly, environmental concern. I'm not sure how many of us are...found
this out myself. In that particular area below Hesse Farm is one of the last remaining trout streams in this area
However minuscule a resource it is, it is a significant natural resource in the fact that at one time there were
several trout streams in the entire metro area I believe the last count there were 7 viable trout streams left. One
of the 7 is Assumption Creek. I would like to invite further information because I recently found this out
myself. But if this be true that we have this resource here in Chanhassen, I feel it should be examined. It
should be protected. Something that should be cherished. There is some concern for that area now because
development in Chaska that is off the watershed from...and it has brought some runoff to that stream. But the
stream is mostly spring fed from below Hesse Farm. This environmental factor for me goes back to the hunting
issue. If hunting is continued to be allowed below the railroad tracks, the hunter wants to have the animal in the
field is...by law at this point is allowed to pursue that wildlife, to retrieve it with snowmobiles. This in fact
would leave snowmobile tracks off the snowmobile trail. Once this has been occurred, say in the November deer
season, the tendency would be to follow this trail. If this gets into, and I know there's a lot of if's here. Into the
area of this stream, Assumption Creek, is there environmental concern? Is this a question that has been raised at
all? I don't have answers. At this point myself I only have questions. Also environmental concerns in pursuit
17 .
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
.
of wildlife. I do have concerns with snowmobilers that are as conscientious as the snowmobilers who are here
tonight that will pursue the fox and deer, the occasional coyote and other rabbits and wildlife we have in the
area. As a resident in the area, I don't want to exclude people from coming and enjoying the neighborhood. I
think for hikers, for bikers, for cross country skiers, that it would be less impact on the animals and wildlife
around. It's a cherished area and I would not presume to be so selfish as to excuse people from viewing the
natural beauty there. And finally I would ask the Council, whatever decision you arrive at, please do not arrive
at it in haste. Do take a long time to consider this. Is an environmental impact study necessary? I don't know.
But is it a concern because if we decide something in haste, find out years later we lost a valuable resource that
could not be restored, it would be quite regrettable. So finally I'm asking please, please take a long time.
Consider the many, many things that not only I have mentioned but the snowmobile club, there are many issues.
So again thank you for your time.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
.
Nancy Mancino: Mayor, Councilmen, Councilwoman. My name is Nancy Mancino, 6620 Galpin Blvd. I do
not live in this area nor am I for or against snowmobiles but I would like to say I live on Galpin Boulevard and
I think about 3 years ago, or 4 when Jerome Carlson built there and...property, it was one of the trail systems
that went from Galpin to Highway 41 and they would cut across there. I live just north of that area and we're
probably as the crow flies, about a half mile north. Quarter mile north of there...that most of the time, I would
say 75% of the time it was just fme having snowmobilers. However, there were many, many occasions at 2:00
and 3:00 in the morning that we would hear the snowmobilers going through that trail. And there was nothing
you can do. You can't go out and stop them...by that time they were gone. So what I have, that's very hard,
was the enforcement of the hours and it was again, just to wake us up. Even though you couldn't actually see
our house...as I said, we were about..half a mile away so the sound just reverberated allover. So I am...
decibels but I can tell you what it was like in the distance of the, or around the trail. Secondly, I just have a
public safety issue and that is, there is no, as far as I know...training snowmobilers, which I really think is toO
bad because one of the things that we fmd, we have a road that goes into Galpin Blvd. and snowmobilers use the
west side of Galpin Blvd. to travel. And many times we have come down the end of our driveway and there are
young men, I think they are young men. Teenage...snowmobilers and they just, they don't even look where our
driveway comes into Galpin and there have been a couple times when we almost hit a snowmobiler so I do have
some concerns if this trail were to traverse a highway and how it was built. I would hope that the State does do
some sort of licensing and training of snowmobilers at an early age. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Joe Kandiko: My name is Joe Kandiko. I live at 10421 Bluff Circle in the City of Chanhassen. A couple
issues brought up by the snowmobilers that I would like to take issue with. The idea of mutual use on the
snowmobile trail of hikers, skiers and snowmobiles I have found not to be true. Walking the trail between
Chaska and Shakopee where it's a maintained trail and many of the trails that are down in the Louisville swamp
area, you hear a snowmobile coming. You're on skis. You have kids with you and you immediately head to the
side and the snowmobiles are not the ones that give way when they're coming down 25-30 mph or more. I
don't find it mutually accessible use of trails and I don't think it's in the interest of safety. Many times we,
when hearing that whine, would have to scurry our kids off to the side of the trail for safety sake and I never
saw a snowmobile slow down on an open straight away for a pedestrian. The noise level that was mentioned,
I'm a physician. I know about decibels and he's off by a power of 10. It's 7 decibels at 3 foot conversation
range, not 70. Higher than 115 decibels was the inside the Metrodome at the World Series. 70 is not 213 of
what a conversation range is at 3 feet. Comparing things of ambient noise level in a house assumes that
.
18
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
.
everybody's up, TV's are going, conversation is going. When you're asleep, any noise is enough to wake you
up and I think that to say that it's 75 or 82 or 72 decibels, if it's quiet at night and you get awaken, that's a
night's sleep lost. And I think this has- to be considered that the hours don't stop when you are in bed or YOW'
kids are in bed. Many times, and right now that snowmobile is not, that snowmobile trail is supposedly non-
motorized vehicles. 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. from my house, which is just up the bluff, not being able to be seen on
that video. However, the video is taken right now. You take that video in January and you'll see 20 more
homes from the distance that he's talking about. So just because he can't see them through fully leafed trees
doesn't mean that there's a lot more accessible trails there. And if he...night's sleep with the whine of those
engines at 1:00,2:00, 3:00 in the morning, is not at all pleasant. I would encourage you to think that this is now
a residential area. Chanhassen cannot go backwards. There are places for these snowmobiles that are on a right
trail and established residential development I think is not considering the day life and night life of the residents
of those places. Policing is indeed impossible. Once those people are on that trail, there's only one way out and
there's only two access points. Bluff Creek Drive and TH 101 and if you can't get on at either of those places,
you're stuck. And the same things have happened as Bardal referred to with hunters. Once they're in there,
you're not going to find them and that's been a problem with enforcing any of these rules. A snowmobile goes
by, you call 911. They're never going to fmd them and that's been an issue that we found not only with hunters
but also certainly with the snowmobilers. So I encourage you to take into consideration the people who border
on these properties. We didn't buy it to live on a snowmobile trail. What he's referring to as far as homes
being enhanced by the Luce Line trail, I'm sure if you said you can listen to snowmobiles at 2:00 and 3:00 in
the morning if you buy this house, you'd end up with a few less... So I think you have to consider that a lot of
what they say, we're not trying to put snowmobiles out of business but I think there's appropriate trails already
set up for that. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks.
.
Boyd Peterson: My name is Boyd Peterson, 9860 Pioneer Circle and it's kind of wild to sit here and listen to
this by the residents of Chanhassen. You've obviously got some people that don't like snowmobiling. They're
trying to cop out some ways to say hey, we don't like them and this and that noise issue. Go away. They're
loud. Everybody forgets about the airplane. I live close to Flying Ooud. They go over all the time. They're
loud. Can you do anything? No. Riley Lake, same deal. You sit and listen to the motorboats going around
and around and around...there is all this crazy noise. Okay, everybody's doing their thing. I have no problem
with a trail in front of my house to get to the main Hennepin County corridor. That's a light rail corridor at the
time. That's what it is and we all should be able to use it. Eventually it's going to be a train coming out that
and then nobody's going to use it. There's been an old railroad train going up and down that since 1920. It's in
my Abstract. It says it in there. Railroad trains are...dirty things. You know what's this environmental impact
stuff when this old greasy train's been going over all them years and there's still trout down there. As far as
able to get off of that when you're on it with a snowmobile is almost impossible. It's either straight up or
straight down. Or it's got fences. Once you get on at the access point the snowmobile club is asking for, it's a
straight shot to Chaska. So my view is let's keep it in Chanhassen and sure there's bad apples that are going to
ruin every group but you know, do you make the laws for them or for the people that put a lot of work... I've
heard some people...watch a good chunk of that property in front that's going to be used for snowmobile trails
and a lot...if I remember, everybody has a right to that trail. You're always going to have your bad apples here
that ruin it. You're always going to have people that don't like what somebody else does. And we're 1995.
Snowmobiles are ever quieter today than they were 6 years ago. Thanks.
Resident: Don, can I have a right to rebuttal on the environment?
19
.
.
.
.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: I'd rather not go into that right now. I'd like to get the rest of the people who have some
concerns.
David Gatto: Thank you Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. My name is David Gatto. I live at 9631 Foxford
Road. I have a question. You indicated that the trail, because you can't use Eden Prairie's is going to come
across Pioneer Trail. Can someone tell me more about that? Where's it going to come from on Pioneer Trail?
Mike Farkas: You know where CR 117 that goes by Lake Susan.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: 17.
Mike Farkas: Or 17, excuse me. Okay, out of Chanhassen there. Okay, that's the original route and then what
we're doing is proposing the trail to go through private property down to Pioneer Trail.
David Gatto: Where is that point on Pioneer Trail?
Mike Farkas: Okay. Approximately I'd say about a half a mile west of Halla Nursery.
David Gatto: Okay. And then continuing.
Mike Farkas: 3/4 of a mile.
David Gatto: Continuing east?
Mike Farkas: It will continue east on the south side, all the way to where the bridge is that goes over the
railroad. The old abandoned railroad and will drop down on the Chanhassen side of the border there and then
we proceed south towards Chaska.
David Gatto: Okay, thank you. I'm actually here for another issue tonight but I'm glad I'm here. Whether
because we've got some comments regarding the Halla issue but as I listen to this, these people want to come
across right in front of my house and I happen to own 400 feet on Pioneer Trail and I must say that I wouldn't
be in favor of this at all. I've had snowmobilers come across on Pioneer Trail there and I'm sure it's not any of
these people because they sound responsible but the problem again is the people that aren't and the problem is
what they'll do is about 2 or 3 years ago I planted several small seedling trees and now they're spruce trees and
they're about this big. And what I think might happen and what I've seen happen is the folks who come across
Pioneer Trail and they see the nice fresh snow down on my property and they run right through the ditch and
they've been on as far as 30 feet inside of my property with their snowmobiles and I'm afraid they're going to
run over the trees and cause other damage and I wouldn't be in favor of that at all. This is the first time I've
heard about this. I'm extremely surprised. They say that they're working with the homeowners but as a
homeowner and I own 400 foot along Pioneer Trail, I wouldn't be in favor of it at all. Thank you very much.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Anyone else?
David Huffman: Hello. My name is David Huffman. I'm a commissioner on one of the commissions, the Park
and Rec department. I was at the meeting last time. I guess I'm the sacrificial lamb this evening. I ask the
Council if you have any questions, I am nervous speaking in front of large groups so forgive my...as we go
through this. We had several different issues that we talked about that evening. They've been covered by a lot
20
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
.
of different people very eloquently. There were two major issues that they were talking to the Council before
and after that were of great concern to us. One was the lack of information given to the homeowner community.
We did not want to see that we were railroading people into a quick and early decision. There seemed to be a
group of individuals on Heidi Lane who had not been contacted. Inadvertently or advertently. We did not go
out of our way to exclude anybody. We had a good discussion from a lot of different individuals. The major
concern that did come up was dual use in this trail. It cannot co-exist. I mean that's what we came up with and
that's what we thought about. It was our understanding that Hennepin County at some point along that corridor
was going to have cross country skiing. We talked about that a little bit. You already read the notes or most of
the concerns with the cross country skiing issue and the existence of the snowmobiles caused a great deal of
concern. For myself in particular and some of the other members. We had a 3-3 vote. The first time allowing
the snowmobiling to continue along that corridor. It was a tie. We had 6 members. It was another, the second
vote was to disallow snowmobiling along there. That was also a 3-3 tie. We need to know as a commission
and we sent it on, what was going to be the use of that trail and that was our concern. If cross country skiing is
going to be allowed, it is going to be groomed, there's going to be a problem from our perspective of the dual
use. The other reality is, this is a light corridor system that allows people to get from one spot to another very
quickly. There will be no bonfIres. There will be no camping. They move from Point A to Point B. They
move down into Chaska. Down to the Minnesota Valley State area. They move quickly into an area that allows
snowmobiling because Eden Prairie does not allowing snowmobiling does not mean that this...body does not
have a few more brains than Eden Prairie. I think this is a very volatile issue on a lot of sides but we sent it up
here. It is our recommendation, after talking to several people on our side on our issue, is that we need some
direction. Some help in terms of the use of the trail. If the trail's going to be cross country oriented, then it's
not going to do us any good to have snowmobiles there. If it's not going to be groomed, taken care of and the
fees collected, the same problem with cross country skiers in terms of use, then from our perspective there's no
problem for using the trail for snowmobiling. Did I get it right or not? Close? Questions, comments, concerns.
.
Mayor Chmiel: I guess not. Not at this time. You only had 6 commissioners out of.
David Huffman: There were 6 commissioners and we had a 3 to 3 tie both ways.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright. Anyone else?
Paul Graffunder: My name is Paul Graffunder. I live at lOool Great Plains Boulevard and this thing is kind of
a bonus issue for me. I'm not here for this either but we happen to have a 55318 zip code where I live and...
My boys and I do snowmobile quite a bit and about all we get to do is go around our house. There's just
nowhere for us to go that I feel it's safe. I would love to have this. We've lived there for quite a while and I
used to hear the train and that was okay. The noise wasn't bad. But we would really love to have this.
Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Yes.
(There was a tape change at this point in the meeting.)
Willard Halver: ...My house is shown there. I'm 250 feet from the old railroad bed. And I've lived there 37
years and it seems as though my yard, my house is a challenge for target for rock throwing off the railroad bed.
The 10th of June this year I picked up 47 rocks. I put a call in to Scott Barr. They said Scott Barr was on...
put down the information and said there wan't anyone available here at Chanhassen. Said I'd have to call the
Sheriffs Department. So I called the Sheriffs Department and the Sheriffs Department gave me the
21
.
.
.
.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
infonnation that they were on an emergency and I'd have to wait a while. Well by that time the individuals that
had been throwing these rocks, I saw him. I know who he is. I know him right today. He was gone. If you
don't catch the man...half an hour to follow him before I get an officer down there. No. No way. I called
the...call the Sheriffs department. 9 weeks later, last Friday evening. Now this first incident happened on a
Friday afternoon about 1:30-2:00. Last Friday evening I'm in my double garage working on my lawn tractor and
my wife's in the basement and we hear some strange noises. And here are rocks are coming again. So I put a
call in, my wife put a call in to 911. This was an after 5:30 in the afternoon. It was half an hour. The
individual was gone. Now I got the license number and I'm waiting for the deputy sheriff that finally came
there in 15 or 20 minutes. He took my story for further action. But it seems to be a target. I am definitely,
until we get some enforcement, which I haven't seen in 37 years. We're down in that southeast comer there.
You might as well say we're down in you know what USA. We don't know what law enforcement is down
there. It's that hard to get. And I don't know why. We pay our taxes and everything. So...until we get
enforcement, I'm not against snowmobiling at all. But when these individuals are under the influence of drugs
and alcohol and throwing these rocks, I've got a big chip on the siding on this episode that happened this last
Friday night. And Don Fox, the Deputy Sheriff is the one who investigated the case, and this is just starting to
move now. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Jim Sulerud: I'm Jim Sulerud at 730 Vogelsburg Trail. I'm here for another issue too, like several of my
neighbors and I guess several of these are focusing down in that area. Couple of things. One is that when I want
to go canoeing I put my canoe on the car and drive across town or somewhere else to go canoeing. If I want to
go cross country skiing, I put my skis on the car and go somewhere else to cross country ski. I can walk and
jog out my door but I can't even bike out my door. I haven't been able to in the past so I've got to put the
bikes on the car and go somewhere else. There was a horse in that south end of town, you'd have to load up the
horse and go somewhere else in most cases. I'm suggesting that for snowmobilers it's maybe the same thing.
You put your snowmobile on a trailer and go down to the river bottoms or you go out to existing trails. It's not
incumbent upon the city to provide out the door access. Another aspect is that I think maybe my family is the
present user of the trail, even though it's not open right now. We live about a couple hundred yards up the road
and we're on that trail literally daily. Often times twice a day. All I can say is that when I say we, I mean my
wife jogs. I don't get out there as often as she does but she jogs year round. What we, our kids use it for
biking and running. The primary use we've seen of the trail so far, unopened as it is, is people walking and
there's quite a few. I don't know where they all come from but there's a lot of people who walk on the trail.
The second biggest use, I want to say numbers of people are bikers and then it's joggers and after that it's dirt
bikes and then cars. Some of that has cut down in the last...! would suggest that it's probably going to continue
to be heaviest used by walkers in the wintertime. Cross country skiing is a slight possibility but I cross country
ski but that area of the track, the railroad bed there is bare most of the winter. The sun hits all that exposed area
and it's bare for most of the time unless it's real heavy snow because it's very exposed to the sun on that south
elevation. So I would say half a mile to a mile is, snowmobilers come through there. I'm surprised that some
do. I'm sure it ruins their equipment but they've come through there in the past. But I would say that it's not
going to be a conflict between cross country skiers and snowmobilers but it will be the walkers and my wife will
continue to jog. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Bill Kullberg: Mr. Mayor, City Council. My name is Bill Kullberg. I am the past President of the State
Snowmobile Association and the current trail administrator for the Southwest Trail Association. But I'm here
22
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
tonight also as a Park Commissioner for the city of Minnetrista and as a helpful hint for you to direct your Parle
Commission, we have been involved with trails and trails in our community were nowhere as developed as what
Chanhassen has but we have been working with the trails and waterway unit with the Department of Natural
Resources and I believe the contact person there would be Mr. Dan Cowens. He's gone to a number of seminars
that address the multiple use concept. The user complex. I sat through the Parle Commission meeting here a
number of weeks ago and there was one young lady who was really advocating cross country skiing. But as we
groom these trails in Carver Park, there's even a conflict between the style of cross country skiing. There's in
line skiing and they want little tracks and then there's the scissor type for ski skating type of situation so there's
conflicts there. Developing conflicts between walkers and bikers that I had not heard about until I got involved
with trails. This kind of information I think would be very helpful to your Park and Rec Commission. I cut out
a little article just recently that dealt with Carver Park and other, Lake Independence and so forth. They're
having problems with bicycles going off of their trails and they had Rangers out there doing patrol and it's the
mountain bikes that like to get off into the more rugged terrain and I can see where they're going to go down
this railway and want to get up and down by the bluffs and so forth so there are environmental issues. It
wouldn't just be snowmobiling that your Park Commission's going to be dealing with. May be well advised to
get this kind of education because you're going to have more conflicts or at least use of this trail but you also
have part of the trails that goes between Shorewood and Victoria with a small section that we have used for a
number of years for snowmobiling. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Leroy Biteler: Just a couple of comments on some of the things that were brought up. With respect to...a1ong
that trail. We can post that trail and put curfews on that trail to whatever we determine is an appropriate curfew
for that area. There are curfews in other areas such as the Shorewood area. I believe it's 10:00 or 11:00 and we
do patrol that area at night with the groomer and with automobile telephones and we do some ticketing with
respect to people that are not meeting the curfew. So if we can help you with the curfew issue. Mr. Kandiko
you mentioned some information with regards to sound decibels. I may be off a little bit but I'm not from 70,
which I mentioned conversation is 70 and you mentioned that it should be number 7. I'm very close in my
decibels ratings with respect to conversation. I work with...wall partitions which deals with sounds transferring
from one side of the partition to the other and they just get some common loudness levels. Just speaking of
regular, average street noise is 70 in their case. Conversations at 3 feet away is 60. Just like to correct that. I
may be off a little bit but I'm not off from 70 to single digit 7. I think you indicated people breaking the law.
It is difficult to catch people breaking the law on snowmobiles. That is why we have in the past actually
brought sleds out to the trails with deputies on it SO that we can help maintain law and we generally have people
from our club assisting these deputies and we have ticketed people. I'd like to see that, those tickets be heavily
enforced and see the dollar volume go up for the people that are breaking the law. David Catcherall, I'm not
sure I pronounced your name but if the trail does go down Pioneer Trail, in fact it will be a marlced trail. It will
be an enforced trail. We'll be able to take care of the areas such as one of our landowners sent us a letter of
recommendation that he was surprised at how well we were able to maintain... We have an area that there's a
problem, you need to contact us and we need to deal with that problem. There's a variety of ways and I truly
believe that we can that some of the people have recommended our services to Council. Which land we crossed
in the past. I think that's basically all I need to address. I think you have enough information from the packet
that I sent you previously.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
23
.
.
.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
.
Leroy Biteler: We would like to see you help us make this decision, pro or con. We've been doing this since
March 22nd which was the last snow season. Coming upon the next one. I can't believe it's taken this long. I
guess that's the way politics works. It's my fIrst experience with this. Thank you very much. Appreciate your
time.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I guess I've heard some of the pros and cons to the issue and there are several things
that I had written down with some of the concerns I had. Number one was curfew. The hours of operation.
What were the city's liabilities, even though the club has an insurance portion on it. But even if they have that,
the city automatically gets brought into any suits that may come up from something as such. Barricades. Some
sharp turns within that particular area and I understand that you're looking at some types of barricades but I'm
not sure what those barricades might be. I wanted more information regarding distances from homes and I
would also like to get the Minutes from the Eden Prairie Park Commission and if and what discussions were
done by the City Council as well. I would like to send this back to the Park and Recreation Commission,
number one and the reason for that is that there were 6 commissioners there. The total commission was not
there. There's 7 members and that one additional member may have tendencies to either break that tie from one
to the other but I would like to get a recommendation back from the commission. And I guess that's where I'm
coming from with this. Richard.
Councilman Wing: I'm in my can't put my thoughts together mode. I want to pass for now.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Colleen.
.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well I've got notes allover the place so my thoughts may not be together. A little
bit scattered but they'll be out there. I came in, let me preface it by saying that I don't snowmobile. However I
see, and I don't recall who but someone made the reference to hunting and these are two, what I call, so called
sports. Snowmobiling and hunting which are rapidly disappearing in the metro county area and we see the areas
to hunt diminishing every year and eventually snowmobiling will not be allowed in our community. Just the
population growth won't allow it. However there's along history in our community of allowing both of these
things and as we continue to grow I guess I'm not ready yet to let go of that opportunity for our citizens. I
think if we're going to allow it in the city, and as I said, I'm not ready to let it go, I think this is the ideal
location. It keeps them out of the ditches. It provides a safe place. However, as Dave brought up, it's not
compatible with any other use during the winter months and I strongly believe that and I guess I have a question
and since Todd Hoffman isn't here, I'll direct it to you Todd Who decides what the winter use is? Can we,
can the city decide that no cross country skiing will be allowed there? Or is that up to Hennepin Parks?
Todd Gerhardt: Hennepin Parks has put it back onto the local jurisdictions to determine what the uses will be.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Any use? Okay. And another way to enforce that is with signs in terms of saying
this is a snowmobile trail and any other uses or at your own risk. I guess what I propose to my fellow Council
members is that we do a trial run for the '94-95 season. I would like to put some restrictions on the time. I
don't see anything later than 10:00 p.m. all week long. Let's see, what else did I write down. I had a question
as to someone brought up that once you're on the trail it would be hard to get off. I'd like some verifIcation of
that. If this does go back to Park and Rec, I'd like that addressed. I guess that summarizes. And I would also
propose that we have a speed limit and I think what the Association is asking for is 40 and since the decibels do
go up with each increasing mile per hour, I'd like some limitation on that. I don't have a suggested number. I
also have a question as to what the fme is for after hours use. Can anybody answer that right now? I mean is it
substantial to deter.
.
24
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
.
Leroy Biteler: We would like to see it be whatever the city makes it
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Do you know what it is currently?
Leroy Biteler: I don't know myself unless Bill Kullberg knows what you do in Shorewood.
Bill Kullberg: It'd be a misdemeanor so they have various gradations. Some cities you're allowed to go straight
home if you live in that city. In the city of Shorewood we have worked currently as they have passed their
ordinance so no matter who you are, if you're on that trail, the rail grade after 11:00 you're going to get a ticket
whether you live next door to the Mayor. So I mean that gave law enforcement more of a tool.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Like that would make a difference.
Mayor Chmiel: We don't do that. Let me just ask Scott. He would have probably a pretty good inkle as to.
Scott Harr: Well any violation of city code is a criminal misdemeanor chargeable by citation and formal
complaint with jail time and a substantial fine possible. The snowmobile regulations in conjunction with the
noise ordinance are so specific that to provide a more specific report I'd have to ask for some additional time,
which I would be happy to do or maybe this is a project that the Park and Rec Commission wants to work on
with the Public Safety Commission as well. But the short answer is any specific violation of the city ordinance
is a criminal misdemeanor.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay, thanks. I guess that's my proposal. I'd like to hear what everyone else
thinks but I would say that we give it a ttial run for '94-95. Reduce the hours to 10:00 p.m. all week and reduce
the speed limit to some reasonable amount
.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I guess maybe I should preface my statement before I get to you Michael. I too am on a
snowmobile route that goes past our house for the past 18 years and there are sometimes that the 2:00, 3:00 in
the morning does occur. It is rare but it does happen. And as far as encroaching on property. Yeah, I've had
that situation happen as well. Where they have taken out one of my hugo pines. It's something that I guess I
sort of get used to because I've got one of my sons that has a snowmobile as well. So I sort of chalk it up as
experience but that 10:00 curfew time is I think something that we should really look at Let me go to you.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I have, excuse me, one more item that I just found. I just lost it.
Councilman Wing: You should have used different color ink.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I should have used different color ink. Sorry.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Michael.
Councilman Mason: Well, while you're searching for it Note, we're all jotting notes tonight East meets west.
Progress. Should we have snowmobiles or not I live in Carver Beach, Woodhill Drive. I don't have a
snowmobile. I don't snowmobile but a lot of people in Carver Beach snowmobile and they come up and down
Woodhill Drive and no, I don't particularly like it but that's the way it is. You know, my lake place. Well, my
father's lake place. Before there was a grant and aid trail, about a half mile away from the cabin, snowmobilers
went all over the place up there and I didn't like it. With that trail, snowmobilers use that trail a lot and there
25
.
.
.
.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
isn't as much traffic elsewhere. That's a plus. I heard residential area. That it's a residential area and my guess
is it will become more of a residential area. Who's held accountable? Who's liable? If there's an accident on
the trail, does the city get sued because a snowmobile hitting a hiker. Cross country skier. Go off the bluff
because it wasn't marked. You know, hopefully we can always compromise on issues. I don't think there's a
compromise here. It seems to me we'll either do it or we won't. I think we need some more information before
I make a decision because I have, quite honestly I'm really sitting on the fence right now. I agree with the
people that want a trail to snowmobile. I think there should be one but I also would not like the snowmobile
going down next to my house. I will say right now, we're talking about, you know Colleen you threw out
10:00. Well, I can't cross country ski in Carver Park after sunset. The park's closed at sunset and I've been
chased out of there more than once, much to my consternation. So 10:00, you know my kids go to bed before
10:00 so if it comes to that, 1O:00's too late for me. But I guess I would like to, Scott said he wanted. needed
some time to look at some issues. I'd like to explore accountability and liability issues before I make my, how I
feel one way or the other. I think, I forget the gentlemen that talked about, the name who said he's got to put
his skis on top of the car and bike on top of the car, his canoe on top of the car. As Chanhassen grows, those
are issues that all of us that like to engage in recreational activities have to face.
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks, Mark.
Councilman Senn: Boy, this to me kind of seems like government at it's best and I mean that facetiously. You
know it seems to me that the County decided it doesn't want to deal with an issue so it's kind of advocated it to
the municipalities and you know it really seems to be a little bit silly and somewhat awkward that we're sitting
here trying to decide that fate of one section of trail and just kind of, are we going to ask people to make U
turns and say only this portion of the trail can be used for this. That portion for this, this and this. It seems to
me that there are some real valid issues here but I think how the trail is used is one which Hennepin County
ought to decide and I think in the process of doing it, they ought to do a lot more studying than we've done and
I think they also ought to ask for our input. But I see our role as more one of input into a whole trail system
than I do deciding the fate of one small section of trail. There's, you know I guess I'd have to say I'm a little
bit like Michael at this point. I'm really kind of not sure which way I'd actually vote if a vote comes tonight. I
live on a heavily traveled snowmobile area where there are almost continuously 2:00 to 3:00 runs to the fish
houses, etc. And I can say geez, I don't notice the boats much in the summertime but then I've got a lot of
trees with a lot of foliage on it. But I tell you what, in the wintertime I notice them and they wake me up
constantly. At the same time I like snowmobiles but most of the time I go do my snowmobiling somewhere
else. Of course I have to say that about biking too so. No doubt that really the people before us tonight as far
as the snowmobiling goes, are responsible people and are probably doing a lot to forward the good of the cause
so to speak but at the same time I've experienced and I know that there's a lot of people that don't look at it as
conscientiously as you do. I have them using my kids skating rink as a jump and I have them using my business
property rather than the ditch and they have...trees and other things like that. I think you have a tendency to
pretty much write some of that off because again, no matter what you do...and I don't think that's only to
snowmobiling. I think it's whatever recreational activity undertaken. So I don't know. Like I said, I'm really
kind of torn both ways on this one but I would really rather see, given the importance of that corridor, the
importance of that particular trail as part of an overall system, I'd much rather see a comprehensive approach to
that dealing with the entire trail and corridor than the approach which is now being taken.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Richard.
Councilman Wing: I think my favorite time of the year is spring and fall because the boats and the snowmobiles
are gone and very, very frankly the boats are much more irritating and a bigger problem, especially out on
26
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
.
Minnewashta where all the inboards are. It's just a, and you know when the boats are gone, the snowmobiles
are gone, the traffic noise makes up for it. So I don't know if we're going to win this. On this whole issue I
just want everybody to like me so it seems to be almost hopeless.
Councilman Mason: Good luck.
Councilman Wing: A couple quick comments just going down my notes. Enforcement on these issues are
general enforcement issues. We're not out, no one is ever going to target a specific snowmobile or a specific car
or a specific boat so when we have a problem, Scott Barr reacts in a general way. And if we have to send 12
sleds out or line the place with police officers, it gets done. But it's general. It's not specific so if someone has
a specific problem with a specific sled, that's kind of light. That's the same with the car and anything else but
we do have the ability to go out and enforce an area if there is a problem that develops and there's no question
about that Winter use is extremely limited. Snowmobiling is extremely limited. There's no snow, there's no
problem. Daytimes aren't an issue. Weekdays really aren't a problem. I live on a trail. It's the weekends that
they're busy. They used to be noisy. They used to be a problem. There used to be swarms of them. Now
they're limited in numbers. It's not as popular as it used to be. They're much quieter. Right next to our house
is an access for the neighborhood. What a nightmare that was but it literally doesn't exist anymore so the
problem that I once knew, I used to own one and I got so frustrated with them that I sold it so I could gripe.
Because of all the griping I won't ever go back into it so there's a lot of pros and cons here. The cross country
skiers, that's my biggest problem because I'm the little scooter type guy and the skaters come in and roin the
trail so come in and groom the trails and the skaters come in and annihilate the cross country trail. They're not
compatible. I do find on our trail going through Shorewood, is that if there's no snowmobiles, there's some
cross country skiing, unless it ices up. But if there's snowmobiles, then there's jogging because they pack it
down so I fmd that for my personal winter use, for jogging, it's convenient for me to have the snowmobiles .
because they pack it down. I have a running surface to ron on. So you know, pros and cons again. I really
agree with Mark. I think fJrst of all I think this should go back to, take our comments and go back to Park and
Rec and hit this head on with the full group and I would like to be there too and address it myself as a
councilmember to help give them some direction. But I think more important, I think Park and Rec ought to
take this and give it back to Hennepin County. I think Mark hit it right on the head. Why put it, this little tiny
section with Chanhassen. This little tiny section of Eden Prairie. Make up your mind what you want to do with
that trail. They did it in Shorewood. It's snowmobiles and multiple uses and we live with it and it has not been
a problem. There aren't a lot of complaints. There haven't been any accidents. We can go on and on with
these if's but the reality is, that trail has been fairly compatible for everybody. I use it all the time. Take it
back to Hennepin County see what they want to do and tell them to make a decision and decide how they want
to use this trail. That will make it easier for us. If they shoot that down, then I think it's back to us to make
the decision. I also want to know from Scott Barr what our present ordinances are. Snowmobiles aren't banned.
I mean they can ride on the streets or they can't. Certain hours they can't They can ride in the right-of-ways
on the highways so it doesn't matter if you own 400 feet on Pioneer Trail or not, if they stay on the right-of-
way, it's got nothing to do with the homeowner as far as his property goes. I guess I note these little fme points
on those issues. Where is the State law and where are our ordinances at? And if that can go to Park and Rec, it
can all be done there. If it does get back dumped on us, we'll make a decision.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is that a motion?
Councilman Wing: I would move to table this and get it back to Park and Rec. Clean it up and then if they
can't make a decision or if there isn't some compromise, I'll be happy to do it
27
.
.
.
.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Councilman Mason: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Just that I'd like to see more information. I found my little tidbit on cross country
ski trails in the city.
Councilman Wing: On what?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Cross country ski trails. I mean you can go out and do it wherever but are there
any designated trails. I'd like to know the condition on that as well.
Councilman Senn: Dick, I'm a little confused with the motion. Are you suggesting go back to Park and Rec
and Park and Rec act on it and send it back to us or.
Councilman Wing: Well I'd like Park and Rec to tackle the issues. Number one, I think the f1I'St thing ought to
be to send it back to Hennepin County and ask them to make a decision. That's my first direction. Secondly, in
lieu of that not occurring, meet with these groups. Fine tune the ordinances that exist. Get that information to
us and then if they want to come up with a decision with the full group, send it back to us. I think we're going
to have the same problems. It's going to come back with the same issues. The same two sides. We'll simply
have to take a stand on it at that point. I guess I'd be more comfortable doing it at that part. But I agree with
you, Hennepin f1I'St. That's the direction to Park and Rec. Then see if they come up with a compromise here
that might be compatible in terms of hours or whatever. If it gets back to us, it will be another night like
tonight. We'll just simply have to make a decision. Does that clarify it Mark?
Mayor Chmiel: There's also another factor by the snowmobile club indicating securement of easements and...
have not gotten those easements, that would be something too that I would strongly look at because that would
just negate any of that trail going if you can't acquire those.
Councilman Wing: It's not this club that's the issue. It's the renegades that are the problem and they're going
to be there regardless.
Mayor Chmiel: No, that's right. Oh no, and I realize that The club has done excellent. They have gone
through the process of teaching other people how to drive snowmobiles and going through the safety aspects so I
know that the club has done an excellent job from that standpoint. So with that I would.
Councilman Mason: One discussion or question, whatever. With this going back to Park and Rec and if they
were to make the motion that it go back to Hennepin County, I would hope that City Council would endorse that
action and there would be some kind of formal statement.
Councilman Senn: Yeah, because I assume that it has to come back to us basically...doesn't it?
Councilman Mason: Yeah, because I would, yeah. I concur.
Mayor Chmiel: But it falls in their realm of responsibility and that's where it should be done. So with that we
have a motion on the floor to table with the following comments that have been given.
28
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to table the request of the Southwest Metro Trail
Association to utilize the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route as a snowmobile trail. All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
INTERIM USE PERMIT TO ALLOW SCREENED OUTDOOR STORAGE IN THE BF. BUSINESS
FRINGE DISTRICT. LOCATED AT 10500 GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD. ADMIRAL WASTE
MANAGEMENT.
Shannin AI-Jaff: This site is located north of Highway 212 and south of the Hennepin County Regional
Railroad Authority trail. Highway 101 and is in...off of Highway 101. The applicant is requesting an interim
use pennit to store commercial dumpsters on property zoned fringe business. There aren't any structures
proposed on this site with the exception of the fence. The fence is proposed to be 100 feet in length. 6 to 8 feet
in height and would screen the dumpsters from views from the highway. The applicant is also proposing to
plant 42 spruce trees at a foot and a half in height. The fence is proposed to be of a dog ear treated panel
design. Staff is recommending approval of this application with conditions outlined in the staff report.
However, if you...some minor corrections. As far as the height of the fence, currently the condition reads,
condition number 1. Reads this fence shall be 8 feet in height. It should read, the fence shall be 6 feet in
height, not to exceed 8 feet. Another issue that we would just like to bring to your attention. Staff is requesting
that work on Sundays and holidays not be pennitted. Now this is not required by ordinance. We put that
condition in there out of consideration to the neighbors in the area. If the City Council wishes to add any
conditions for this application, we need to fmd out that there should be a balance between the conditions of
approval and the length of the tenn that you put on this application. You should allow the applicant to meet
those...of the site. Again, staff is recommending approval of this application with conditions outlined in the staff
report. Thank you. .
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Sharmin. Is the applicant here this evening?
Bill Griffith: Mr. Mayor, Council members. My name is Bill Griffith, 1500 Norwest Financial Center,
Bloomington representing the applicant. The pennit requested is essentially a pennit to build a 150 foot fence to
screen existing construction containers on the site. It would seem a simple matter but I do believe that it needs
to be put into context so if you'll indulge me for a few minutes. This will not take as long as the snowmobile
discussion. Although I was happy to see that the trail did overlook our site, as it looks at the juncture of
Highway 101 and 212 and as it overlooks the top of the site and down to the bottom, I saw no dumpsters visible
from that location. So the issue is really screening the construction containers from the roadway. And if you
drive by the site at this time, you'll notice that there's quite a bit of foliage on the site. It's fairly dense and the
topography lends itself to screening from the north and from the other directions. What we are proposing would
screen the dumpsters more than sufficiently during the winter months when foliage is not as dense. The reason
for this application is related to another matter on your agenda this evening, and that is the amendment to the BF
district uses. To add pennitted uses and make additional conditional uses. I don't think there is any coincidence
that these matters are on the same agenda. The applicant has very limited uses today. You're probably aware
that there are 4 conditional uses and I think 3 interim uses of the property in the BF district. In 1988 the
applicant did have a conditional use pennit for a contractors yard and had planned to locate a facility for storing
these types of dumpsters both inside and outside the building and putting...center. They looked at the site and I
think because the recycling was just taking off at that time and as they...1ooked at their recycling market, the
year lapsed and they came back to the Council for an extension and was denied. So they were not able to go
forward with that contractors use. However, they did have pennission from the city to store dumpsters, I think
albeit 6 at the time. They continued to use the property in that manner from that time until this for the last 6 or
29
.
.
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
7
--
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
TO:
Don Ashworth, City Manager
~
Action by City Administrator
.I "'1\ t.() A-
Endorsed~
Modifid
Rejected
Dete ~ - I ,- Cj '1
Pete Submitted to Commission
MEMORANDUM
FROM:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
DATE:
August 16, 1994
f DIM Submmed to ColPOil-
~'21.-q'f
SUBJ:
Consider Request of Southwest Metro Trail Association to Utilize Southwest
Regional Light Rail Transit Route as a Snowmobile Trail
.
On March 22, 1994, Mr. LeRoy Biteler, speaki
Association, asked the Park and Recreation C
above mentioned abandoned railroad right-of
16, 1994 and resulting minutes). Mike Park
commission in this regard. Upon entertain'
asked that the issue be placed on a future
a member of the Southwest Trails
ion to advocate snowmobile travel on the
attached memorandum dated March
of the 'Snowmobile Club also addressed the
a shorti~iscussion that evening, the commission
enda for p blic discussion.
.
On June 28, 1994, the Park and Recre.on Commission ..eld a public meeting to review the
request of the Southwest Metro TraY, Association (see at hed memorandum dated June 22,
1994 and resulting minutes). Notification of this meeting as published in the Chanhassen
Villager and letters were maileq'to property owners abuttirt the railroad bed. This mailing
reached the vast majority O(hol11eowners; however, residen on Heidi Lane were
inadvertently omitte<;l~I'onfthe mailing. Neighborhood "go " reached at least some of the
nine households oriHeidiLane(b'lQOf_bich;abutthe.rai.lro right-of-way). The
commission ent~.......mu........................ '.n.e9.discl.lS$on.fmm~al.ldi.. .;.........~Q,p~<Q. f.<3. ...1'. P............r.......o.......:..XUIUl......... ..................................................t......e.............l. y. ..............:,2................0..............................p..........e... r ons prior to
closing public co~~~..!g~iscuss the issue amongcoImi1issioriers:::ThlsOri long
process concluded with ComlQi~!~~~.~ ...~llSh moving, Meger seco~~i~~th the Park and
Recreation Commission would recommendfllo'li!~~~2!g1()biling as the only motorized
activity on the Southwest Regional LRT T.-.iI !tith the conditions that the Snowmobile
Club would sign the trail, there would be ~~~rcement of the speed limit and curfew,
and that the Park and Recreation Commissipn would review this item annually. The
motion failed with a 3 to 3 vote. A second motion was made by Commissioner Andrews,
seconded by Commissioner Manders that the Park and Recreation Commission would
recommend to prohibit snowmobiling on the Southwest Regional Trail. This motion also
failed by a 3 to 3 vote.
Don Ashworth
August 16, 1994
Page 2
.
SUMMARY OF ISSUES
The southern LR T route is owned by the Hennepin County Regional Railroad
Authority (HCRRA) from Hopkins to a point just south of Highway 212 at the
Chanhassen/Chaska border.
Hennepin Parks holds an agreement with the HCRRA to utilize the LRT route as a
trail for an undetermined length of time from Hopkins to Bluff Creek Drive in
Chanhassen. Whatever the decision of the Chanhassen City Council, the Hennepin
Parks Board of Directors has the authority to condone or override any decision handed
down by the city council affecting their portion of the trail.
The City of Chanhassen holds an agreement with the HCRRA to utilize the LRT route
as a trail corridor as a temporary use from Bluff Creek Drive to Highway 212 (see
attached agreement).
Abandoned railroad beds are routinely converted into trails and are often utilized as
snowmobile routes.
Hennepin Parks has fenced portions of the route which were deemed potentially
hazardous due to extreme slope drop off.
.
The Snowmobile Club is requesting this route be designated as an alternative to their
Audubon Road trail (see map).
Some residents who abut the corridor in addition to some residents who do not have
voiced their objection to the proposal to utilize the corridor for snowmobile travel.
The majority of the homes which are located in the vicinity of the railroad bed lie a
considerable distance from the trail.
If the City of Chanhassen recommends snowmobile travel be allowed, the City of
Eden Prairie must also agree to allow snowmobiles in the corridor from Lake Riley to
Pioneer Trail.
The City of Eden Prairie Park and Recreation Commission voted not to recommend
that snowmobile access be allowed on their portion of the corridor. The Eden Prairie
City Council will review this issue on a future agenda.
Permission to gain access via private property to Lake Riley on the Chanhassen side
has been secured by the Snowmobile Club.
.
.
.
.
Don Ashworth
August 16, 1994
Page 3
The City of Chaska Park and Recreation Commission approved this new route on
August 8, 1994. The Chaska City Council will review this issue on a future agenda.
The Snowmobile Club has initiated investigations into a dry land route which bypasses
the City of Eden Prairie, but still utilizes the railroad corridor.
Appropriate notification of this discussion has been mailed. A member of the Park and
Recreation Commission will be in attendance at the August 22 city council meeting to answer
any questions of the council. Representatives of the Snowmobile Club will be available to
initiate this discussion. I await direction from the city council in this regard.
C ITV OF
CHANHASSEN
fa
----
.
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Park and Recreation Commission
?II
FROM:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
DATE:
June 22, 1994
SUBJ:
Public Hearing, Southwest Regional LRT Trail, Review Request of Southwest
Metro Trail Association to Utilize Corridor for Snowmobiles
As the commission is aware, Mr. LeRoy Bitele~re:presenting the Chanhassen snowmobilers,
made a visitor presentation before the commis~i(m ~n March 22, 1994, in regard to the future
modes of transportation to be allowed on thef;ibovementioned trail. Hennepin Parks has
elected to allow the local units of govemmen.t/through which this trail passes to discuss which .
mode of transportation are appropriate for tJl~' corridor. In speaking with Del Miller of
Hennepin Parks, it is the consensus that tr~yel by horsepr equestrian use will not be allowed.
Furthermore, through conversation with ~resentatives9! Eden Prairie, it appears that
snowmobiles will not be allowed on th~trail in the CityQf Eden Prairie. Likewise, officials
of the City of Chaska have concerns.in' this regard. With",n aggregate surface, biking,
walking and jogging will representthe mainstream activiti~ along this corridor. There are
currently no plans to maintain tJletrail as a cross country ski facility; however, it should not
be construed that cross counuyskiing will not be allowed. Tracking operations through the
use of a mechanized tracklayer is not included in the currenfmaintenance plans. As the
commission is aware, HennepinP~~.}isqol1qlq4ingtJleirsegrnent of the trail at Bluff Creek
Drive and the Ci~~s ofQ~~~n..~gQ1~~~..~~.P11ff~n~~a.~JllPtipg t?fac~litate the
completion of the traij.ti:()In Bluff Creek Drive to Highway 212. The latter segment is
located wholly within theCityi()~~g:hassen, thus two governing entities (the City of
Chanhassen and Hennepin Parks) have theJin~J sa~~s~2\yhat.uses will be allowed on the
Chanhassen portion of the corridor. I have aqachc-4 the staff report presented to the
commission dated March 16, 1994, the letter ~! ~#Iuest from LeRoy Biteler representing the
Southwest Metro Trail Association, the minut~}"hich resulted from that discussion, and a
copy of the mailing list and notification letter which was distributed to adjacent landowners
and other interested parties.
I await the direction of the commission in this regard.
'--...........
.
.
.
.
Attachments:
1.
2.
3.
4.
Staff report dated March 16, 1994
Letter from LeRoy Biteler
Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dated March 22, 1994
Notification Letter and Mailing List
pc: Larry O'Dell, Hennepin County Regional Rail Authority
Southwest Street Level
Government Center
Minneapolis, MN 55487-0016
Del Miller, Hennepin Parks
Mike Liddicoat, Carver County Parks
Dave Pokorney, Chaska City Administrator
Tom Redman, City of Chaska
Bob Lambert, City of Eden Prairie
LeRoy Biteler, Southwest Metro Trail Association
Carol Dunsmore, Eden Prairie Horsemen
CITY OF
CHAHHASSEH
.
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
June 22, 1994
Dear Resident:
As you may be aware, Hennepin Parks is completing trail improvements on the Hennepin
County Regional Railroad Authority (BeRRA) Light Rail Transit (LRT) route from Hopkins
to Bluff Creek Drive in Chanhassen. The Cities of Chanhassen and Chaska are considering
extending this trail from Bluff Creek to Highway 212 to facilitate future connection to the
City of Chaska. Upon completion, the trail will~ available for walking, jogging, and biking;
use by horses is not being considered and the ayailability of the trail for snowmobilers is in
question. At present, no use by motorized vehicle(is authorized along the corridor.
However, the Southwest Metro Trail Associatj,pn has requested utilization of the corridor for
snowmobiles from Lake Riley through Chanh.8.ssen to the City of Chaska. The Chanhassen
Park and Recreation Commission has called a public hearing in this regard for Tuesday, June
28, 1994, in the Chanhassen City Council Chambers. This item appears sixth on the
commission's agenda that evening and wj.11 be discussed after 8:00 p.m. If you have an
opinion in this regard, or are interestedm the future of this trail, please attend next Tuesday's
meeting. If you are unable to attenq.and would like to submit written comments, or if you
have additional questions, please ~me at 937-1900,
.
Sincerely,
Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Director
TH:k
.
.
JAMES STRUBLE
12420 29TH AVENUE NO
PLYMOUTH, MN 55441
KIRK A MACKENZIE
10420 BLUFF CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
JOSEPH KANDIKO
10421 BLUFF CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
ARI FUAD
6645 CHEROKEE TRAIL WEST
EDEN PRAIRIE, MN 55344
LEE ANDERSON
6651 MINNEWASHTA PKWY
Excelsior, MN 55331
RICHARD NIEMI
10460 BLUFF CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
PAUL KILKER
Ai. LAKE POINT
~HASSEN, MN
55317
DENNIS BARTHOLOW
9841 DEERBRooK DR
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
JOHN LONSTEIN
1559 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE NO
MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55427
JOHN REVIER
PO BOX 358
CHANHASSEN, MN
55317
GREGORY LAWLER
9900 DEERBRooK DR
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
JOHN POULOS
6600 FRANCE AVENUE
'660
MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55435
FIRST AMERICAN BANK
JIM MCWILLIAM
633 SO CONCORD
SO ST PAUL, MN 55075
DAVID J PELLER
1819 HAEG DR
BLOOMINGTON, MN
55431
GEORGE NELSON & ASSOC.
1660 SO HIGHWAY 100
MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55416
MICHAEL A BOYLAN
17700 SOUTHRIDGE COURT
MINNETONKA, MN 55345
JEFFREY MICHEL
11887 WATERFORD ROAD
EDEN PRAIRIE, MN 55344
STONE ARCH INC
2750 STONE ARCH ROAD
WOODLAND, MN 55391
PAUL TAUNTON
1125 CROSSTOWN
N PRAIRIE, MN
CIRCL
GERALD BERTSCH
8556 IRWIN ROAD
BLOOMINGTON, MN
55437
THOMAS ZWIERS
11111 DEUCE ROAD
ELKO, MN 55020
55344
LELAND F GOHLIKE
11661 MYERON ROAD
STILLWATER, MN 55082
EVERETT OLSON
1675 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
WILFRED H JR DAHLKE
1705 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
VERNON TEICH
220 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
DAN TESTER
230 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
TERRANCE BEAUCHANE
240 FLYING CLOUD DR
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
.
LEON MESENBRINK
250 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
LE VERNE M VASSAR
285 FLYING CLOUD DR
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
ALVIN LEBENS
460 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
WILLARD A. HALVER
470 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
SORENSEN PROPERTIES
J MICHAEL SORENSEN
ROUTE 2 BOX 187K
BELLE PLAINE, MN 56011
JOSEPH NOTERMANN
1205 WEST 6TH AVENUE
SHAKOPEE, MN 55379
CHESTER J. TEICH
825 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
RICHARD DEE
1201 HESSE FARM CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
SHERYL HOUGH
1225 HESSE FARM CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
EDWARD MUELLER JOHN FORCE PAUL ALLEN
1251 HESSE FARM CIRCLE 1001 HESSE FARM ROAD 1002 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318 Chaska, MN 55318 Chaska, MN 55318
DANIEL SMITH WM E HARDER GARY BAKER .
1020 HESSE FARM ROAD 1025 HESSE FARM ROAD 1075 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 Chaska, MN 55318
FRAYNE JOHNSEN
1100 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
TODD J ROGERS
1101 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
HOWARD NOZISKA
1120 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
BRUCE RECH
1180 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
ROBERT PERRY
1181 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
ROGER BROWN
1200 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
EUGENE JUNKER
1250 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
GARY WEHRWEIN
CHASKA DRUG
323 CHESTNUT
CHASKA, MN 55318
ROBERT STEFFES
1350 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
THOMAS TOUSSAINT
6864 STONEWOOD COURT
EDEN PRAIRIE, MN 55346
NICK EVANOFF
1401 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
RUSSEL BARTO
400 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
.
JOHN B PAUL
LOWELL CAMPBEL
TIM WISE
17541 MANCHESTER AVENUE
IRVINE, CA 92714
415 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
425 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
LAVERNE WHEELER
. LAKOTA LANE
. ska, MN 55318
M.C. HAPPE
495 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
DEVAL MEDH
535 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
N A MONROE
565 LAKOTA LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318
VERNE SEVERSON
675 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
JAMES SALERUD
730 VOGELSBERG TRAIL
Chaska, MN 55318
SCOTT FINLEY
740 VOGELSBERG TRAIL
Chaska, MN 55318
ALLEN ROTHE
750 VOGELSBERG TRAIL
Chaska, MN 55318
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting -June 28, 1994
.
Andrews: I think we need a motion or a resolution of support here I guess is what we really
need here.
Huffman: With ongoing discussion involving...community people who have never had a
chance to voice before.
Lash: I can't imagine that Shorewood wouldn't have a similar policy as Chanhassen that
anyone affected by things like this, are notified. So if you're not being notified, I'd call the
Shorewood City Hall and ask to be notified of any future.
Gary Carlson: I have been there.
Andrews: I guess I'd send them a certified letter and if they didn't notify you of a meeting
pertaining to that park after receiving a certified letter, I guess I'd argue they'd probably be in
violation of some law. Because I know that when developers own property here and there's
any action going on with it, we have to send them notices that we're discussing the land so.
I think it's unanimous here that we would support the City of Shorewood improving a park
that we get to use so I don't think we need a formal motion do we Todd to move ahead on
this, or would you like a motion of support? Let's have a motion of support then please.
Roeser: I move we support Shorewood's plan for improvement of Cathcart Park.
.
Andrews: Second?
Lash: Second.
Roeser moved, Lash seconded that the Chanhassen Park and Recreation Commission
support Shorewood's plans for improvements to Cathcart Park. All voted in favor and
the motion carried.
PUBLIC HEARING: SOUTHWEST REGIONAL LRT TRAIL. REVIEW REOUEST
OF SOUTHWEST METRO TRAIL ASSOCIATION TO UTILIZE CORRIDOR FOR
SNOWMOBILES.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Daniel & Kathy Smith
Bob Steffes
1020 Hesse Pann Road
1350 Hesse Pann Road
33
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
Karen Dee
Georgia Kandiko
Lee K. Anderson
Willard Halver
Todd Kurtz
John Heerdt
Cheryl Marszalek
Allen Koenig
Mark Briol
leRoy Biteler
Bill Roberts
Bill Kullberg
Brad Blomquist
Jeff & Brenda Meredith
Jussi Leliti
1201 Hesse Farm Circle
10421 Bluff Circle. Chaska
10441 Bluff Circle, Chaska
470 Flying Cloud Drive
5215 Polk Avenue, Mayer
RL 1, Box 40, Mayer
10360 Heidi Lane
12610 98th St, Cologne
10377 Heidi Lane
910 Penamint Court
880 Lake Drive
P.O. 34, Navarre
7141 Derby Drive
1050 Butte Court
8200 West Lake Court
Todd HotTman presented the staff report on this item.
Mark Briol: I don't think many people who have adjacent land to that track got
notification of this meeting. I got notification yesterday and my back yard...
Andrews: Sir, I'm going to invite comments from all members of the audience here very
soon so, in fact I'll do that at this time. Anybody wishing to speak about this issue from the
audience, please step to the mic. State your name and address please.
Willard Halver: My name is Willard Halver. I live at 470 Flying Cloud Drive. That's just
close to the line. Oh about half a block or 3/4 of a block between the old, where the TH 101
railroad bridge was. I've lived there 37 years and it seems as though it's been a little bit of
an ongoing problem for me and I've lived with it. My house is about 250 feet down the side
here and it wasn't so bad when the railroad was in there. Certainly the trains coming through
kind of kept the things in order but this past spring now, we've had 3 wheel all terrain
vehicles up on there. 250. Unlicensed. Tearing up and down the bluff area. Up behind
Sorenson's buildings to the railroad, the old railroad right-of-way. Past my place. Up
through where Dr. Monroe and the other people live on the bluff. They've got regular trails
in there and they're running...evening or not. If you went back far enough from my place
you would see it.
Andrews: We rode all the way through there tonight and we.
34
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
.
Willard Halver: ...and back up and make a run...anyhow, what the climax to the whole thing,
I've kind of overlooked this. We were gone for the winter and we came back last April and I
knew this was going on and I just let it ride. 10th of June my wife and I usually take a little
nap in the afternoon at oh, 1 :00, 1 :30, 2:00. And the dog barked and something funny was
hitting the house. And I was kind of half asleep and she was kind of half asleep and the...
we didn't think too much of it and then finally the third piece hit the house. So I got up and
looked around and I couldn't see anything and I went outside and here I started picking up a
rock here, a rock there. Four pieces of rocks. Now this is this crushed stuff off the edge of
this railroad bed. So I take it upon myself to go up and fmd out where and what was going
on. I just missed the culprit He got back on on the all terrain vehicle and was down the
road when I was up there. You could see in the weeds where he had parked. And he has to
get over about 250, or maybe 300 feet so that's an awful arms throw. You've got to be
better than Kirby Puckett in order to throw that far. Now it was only...4 to 6 rocks that I
picked up in my yard. And I called Scott Harr. I had to go through the iron curtain to get
ahold of Scott Harr. I could get ahold of Scott Harr. Then finally he took my call and made
a report out on it. I was told to call the Chaska Sheriffs Department, which I did. Well
gosh Mr. Halver, they're out on an emergency right now. It's going to be some time before
they come. I went back up the hill. Here comes this ATV, just going...at that point I had to
hide behind the trees. The wife looks out the kitchen window and here is Mr. Culprit looking
and he saw her. He tore on the all terrain vehicle. It did come over the scanner and the
owner of this business, of the Sorenson building and the guy that did the dirty work, took off .
out there and we never saw them for 2 more days. This is why I called Scott Harr and I sent
a letter to him 2 weeks ago and I haven't got an answer. I said what's going on down there.
So public safety to me is a sh word. We don't get the support we need. So I am against
until, ...until we get some law enforcement on that trail. There's been tires dumped out there
on that trail. Hennepin County's got it posted now so it's...but there's a garbage dump out
there because I go out there every once in a while and walk and I used to walk when the
railroad was there. I've lived there for 37 years. But until we get some law enforcement
there, I'm against it 100%. And like I say, there's nothing from preventing these 3 wheel all
terrain vehicles from putting a ski on in the wintertime and using them as a snowmobile. So
the minute this permit is granted for snowmobiles, how many other types of, they can roll on
them with tires. How many other types of vehicles can use it snowmobiles. Thank you.
Andrews: Thank you sir.
Mark Briol: Members of the panel, I appreciate your patience. I did not get notice of this
hearing, nor have I gotten notice of any other hearings before this panel relating to what
constitutes basically my back yard.
Andrews: Could you state your name and address.
35
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
Mark Briol: My name is Mark Briol your honor. I got notice yesterday when the neighbor
stuck a notice in my box. This was my response today. I had no idea that this was going to
used as a bike trail, much less a snowmobile trail. Snowmobile trail or anything else. I
contacted the Minnesota Attorney General's office and the Environmental Quality Board and
they're generally wondering whether or not there's a mandatory environmental assessment
statement that needs to filed. And if not, whether the petitioning process can take place.
Second of all, I want this Board to know about the safety concerns I have of anything taking
place back there. I've called 911 on more than one occasion to complain about people
shooting in my back yard. They go back there and they hunt deer and they hunt everything
else. I don't know what's going to happen now with respect to the hunting regulations in my
back yard but people are shooting in my back yard, which is right by where those railroad
path is going to be. I have some serious concerns. I go back there once or twice a year to
see what my back yard is like. I walk down the trail. I pick up pop cans. I pick up shotgun
shells. I pick up garbage. Who's going to take care of the littering? In terms of safety
concerns for people along the path, if you walk the path today, if you went down there, you'll
see as you go down there that there's a significant drop off on the incline. It can go down 10
or more feet and they go down in the marsh and things like that. Well who's going to pick
up the garbage down there, number one. Number two, if there's going to be snowmobiles in
there or if there are going to be people on that trail, there should be guardrails. There should
be something to keep people from falling off that path and getting injured. Second of all
with respect to physical safety, I agree with what this gentleman has said. There's no police
protection out where I am. I've got to call 911. I have never, in the S years I've been there,
seen a police car out in Hes~ Farm, or anywhere near Hesse Farm. Not even to pick up
speeders. The only way I get a police car out there is if I call them. And I pay a significant
amount of property taxes. Fire hazards. Now if there's going to be increased traffic back
there in the, I don't want my back yard to turn into a Los Angeles. It gets very dry back
there on occasions. If there's going to be increased traffic, and people are going to be tossing
out cigarette butts, I'd as soon not see any cigarette smoking on that trail. I don't want
somebody to toss a cigarette butt off and have my whole back yard torched. And if you
know the way the development is put together, the woods go all the way up the hill and they
surround the houses. I mean if that place gets torched, everybody's house gets torched
because I don't see any fl1'e hydrants out there. I don't see where anybody could come out
there and make any kind of reasonable approach to public safety to save the environment if
the place goes up. Second of all with respect to snowmobiles. I've got to tell you this. Last
year I was walking with my daughter down one of the paths on the east side. A snowmobile
came buzzing by us. They came up behind a horse. Now the horse couldn't move aside.
Either he was, the path just wasn't wide enough. So the horse rears up and bucks and the
snowmobiles continue to follow it down the path until finally they get to a place where the
horse can go aside. I'm not sure the paths are wide enough to be able to sustain either
snowmobiles passing each other or people walking on it at the same time snowmobiles are on
36
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
.
there. It just is. I'm concerned I've never gotten notice before. I responded in a timely
manner and I hope that you consider both, whether or not you're going to make a path and
two, what you're going to use ~t for. Thanks.
Andrews: Thank you.
Dan Smith: Members, good evening. My name is Dan Smith. I live at 1020 Hesse Farm
Road in Chaska. I say Chaska because that's our mailing address but we're in Chanhassen.
We're down in that little part of the city where we get no services until things like this occur.
The easiest thing to do is just say no. You know, don't do it Snowmobiles, absolutely not
It's not a good spot for it. People who are affected, you know are the ones who are going to
put up with this garbage. We also did not get notification and I appreciate my neighbors
getting me to this meeting because it's a tremendous annoyance if something like this occurs.
You've got the opportunity here. Eden Prairie's already saying no. Chaska's going to make
up their mind in a few years but just stop it right now.
Andrews: Anybody else from the audience?
Resident: I don't need to state...
Andrews: Thank you. Anybody else feels the same?
.
Resident: Well I too live on high...and the snowmobile traffic that already illegally uses that
trail makes a terrible noise. It's something that wakes up somebody from sound asleep. If
it's a sanctioned snowmobile trail, I'm concerned that the use will be continuous all night and
all day.
Andrews: Anybody else have any comments or more than a few seconds, please do step up
and state your name and address. Not only is it good that you get on the record but the
Council does get copies of the Minutes. It may be important. It also might make it easier for
us to notify you if there's future hearings.
Resident: Would you like our names and addresses?
Andrews: Well there will be a sheet that goes around. Why don't you make sure you get, if
you're not.
Lash: And if you are not on...chances are you're not going to be picked up for the record.
37
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
Bob Steffes: My name is Bob Steffes. I live at 1350 Hesse Farm Road. I'm the
neighborhood president for the ~st association. I've been getting mailings regularly on any
action for the neighborhood yet- on this one we did not receive a mailing. Is there any reason
why this one?
Huffman: There's a conspiracy.
Roeser: Todd, is this an official public hearing?
Hoffman: No, it is not. Mr. Steffes is on the mailing list that was prepared for this. Daniel
Smith, 1020 Hesse Farm Road is on the list.
Dan Smith: Are you mailing it to Chanhassen because we don't get mail if it says
Chanhassen.
Hoffman: The addresses are Chaska, Minnesota 55318. And then again your letter...1025
Hesse Farm Road was on this and... If they did truly not get their's...we'll fmd out. As far
as...computer generated and if that street is not listed on that search so that was an error and
that will be corrected.
Andrews: I'd like to ask the people that did not receive mailing today, or by today, if they
do receive them late, that they contact the city office and note how many days it took them
to get their mail so in future hearings that an appropriate amount of mailing time could be
used.
Resident: Only one person in the neighborhood received a mailing and that was Howard
Noziska, if I'm not mistaken. Howard was a past member of I believe the Planning
Commission. Maybe that's why he was notified but in the past we...
Andrews: Yeah we do but I have to also point out that occasionally on city mailings that I've
gotten them the day of a meeting and that's cutting it awful close.
Resident: Who maintains the trail? There's just some general questions about who will
maintain this trail once it's constructed.
Huffman: Do you want to start at the beginning and just explain where the trail is too? I
mean it's the railroad bed we're talking about. We're not talking about your neighborhoods
and streets and things of that nature. Okay, we're talking about the railroad bed.
38
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
.
Resident: Right. There's a trail there existing already on the south edge of the Hesse Farm
property.
Huffman: Correct.
Resident: Right, absolutely. And who's going to maintain that once it's constructed? It's
fmished now...
Hoffman: As everyone knows, it's owned by the Hennepin County Regional...at least as the
commission is aware. Hennepin Parks has an agreement with the HCIA to utilize that trail
and that corridor as a trail. Hennepin Parks is the governmental jurisdiction in charge of it,
thus they will be maintaining it. Unless they make some agreements otherwise...
Resident: So it will be maintained if it's damaged by snowmobiles or other forms activity?
Hoffman: That's correct
Andrews: Could I ask Todd to clarify too. The jurisdictional control of uses. How that's
determined so everybody is aware how that's working.
Hoffman: Hennepin Parks obviously they have the agreement with people on that property.
However they have to look to each individual municipality to take the initiative to fmd out
what the residents, the user groups of the individual communities would like to see take place
on that trail. Thus they have given the individual communities the liberty to hold these type
of neighborhood informational meetings. This commission has held these, on this specific
trail dealing with horses. The horse groups. The snowmobile groups. The commission has
looked at 2 years ago at taking this project upon themselves. The commission was not..to it
You've taken a look at a variety of things over the years. But for everyone's information,
Hennepin County's jurisdiction stops at Bluff Creek. The City of Chaska then...to the city of
Chanhassen has maintained the segment from Bluff Creek Drive to the Highway 212.
.
Resident: So the present trail is off limits to all motorized vehicles, is that correct?
Hoffman: The operations policy has not been established.
Resident: I thought that had.
Hoffman: The Hennepin County Regional Rail Authority has notified properties that no
motorized vehicles. Hennepin Parks has not..
39
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
Andrews: And that's why we're here tonight.
Resident: The Southwest Trail Association was mentioned in the letter.
Hoffman: They have spokespeople here this evening...
Resident: Okay. The only other thing I'd like to mention is that the use of snowmobiles on
that trail will ruin the use of the trails for other things such as cross country skiing and other
activities. I don't think they will mix very well. Thank you very much.
Huffman: Real quick, Mr. Briol? You talked about the public safety never has been around.
You've never been to a Jim Huff's birthday party then in your neighborhood?
Mark Briol: Ah no.
Huffman: Okay.
Georgia Kandiko: I'm Georgia Kandiko and I do wish to go on record as being opposed to
opening this trail for snowmobiles. I live at 10421 Bluff Circle. I did receive notification,
thank you very much and this one is at my back yard also. It is a noisy problem already.
When it is established as a snowmobiles are allowed to use this. They already are using this
traiL.so I'm adamantly opposed to this...thank you.
Andrews: I'd ask to indulge the commission with brief comments. We've got a whole bunch
more to go yet tonight so, alright. Thank you.
Resident: ...I just have one question with regards to maintenance of the trails by Hennepin
County. Does that include trash pick-up?
Hoffman: Yes it does as far as I understand. They had sent out a mailing that they would be
holding a meeting in this regard to the municipalities I believe on July 17th at their
headquarters at French Regional Park. That was one of the items on there...
Resident: I would just state that I also am opposed to snowmobiles...
Karen Dee: My name is Karen Dee at 1201 Hesse Farm Circle. This also is part of my back
yard. I did not receive notice. I'd like to go on record as stating I'm very opposed. In
addition to the safety and environmental concems...integrity. We've made several inquiries
and have always been told there was no motorized vehicles. I would hope they live up to
that.
40
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - lune 28, 1994
.
Roeser: I can tell you this about all Hennepin County trails. They don't go out on motorized
vehicles on their trails but see we've been given the authority to decide that in Chanhassen.
Karen Dee: ...go through Hennepin County and Carver County...that there would be no
motorized vehicles.
Roeser: Yeah. I ride their bike trails a lot and they don't
Andrews: Is there anybody here from that snowmobile association that wish to make any
comments tonight?
Leroy Biteler: Good evening. My name is Leroy Biteler and I am a member of the
Chanhassen Snowmobile Club. A member of the Southwest Trail Association. I guess to
start off with, I was happy to see on some of these letters that were sent in that there was at
least one that had a positive note to our trail system being allowed on railroad beds. In
comments from some of the things that have been said, snowmobilers in the past in our
community have encouraged and brought on through law enforcement to our trail system.
Not only has the DNR been on our trail system, patrolling the trail system. We, as a club,
have encouraged and called and arranged with Carver County...somehow on our trail system
with some of our own personnel and patrolled the trail. What I'm saying here is that we
have assisted and will continue to assist in helping patrol any trails we have in our trail
system. We would like to get even more involved in that standpoint but that may not be as
easily done as what we would like it to. It's not unusual for railroad lines to be converted to
trail systems to have motorized vehicles with skis. Such as the county. We have a trail
system that runs through Shorewood and out to Victoria which has gone from rail to trails
and allowed snowmobiles.
.
Andrews: Is that the Luce Line?
Leroy Biteler: The Luce Line is one. What is the name of the one in Shorewood? Is that
the Luce Line or is there a name for that?
Roeser: The Luce Line's in Wayzata.
Resident: The Luce Line goes out through Orono and out..
Leroy Biteler: And the one in Shorewood going to Victoria.
Resident: It has not an official name right now but it has been taken over by Hennepin
Parks.
41
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
.
Leroy Biteler: Okay. As far as an environmental issue, I really don't think that is an issue
on a railroad bed that is now going to be a gravel bed. There has been, we have done with
respect to decibels with snowmobiles and sound, how far, how far they will transmit the
sound and we have been documenting some information here. One of the gentleman that
actually was involved with doing those tests on one of the railroad beds that at one time was
a problem. He may speak later. As far as the width of the trail, Todd do you know how
wide this trail is going to be? ..
Hoffman: The trail would be 10 feet from the shoulders.
Leroy Biteler: 10 feet is plenty wide enough...for snowmobiles to pass.
Resident: Oh no...
Andrews: I'd have to state that we drove this in a Chevy Suburban tonight and it was amply
wide for that to drive the trail, and a Chevy Suburban's at least 8 feet wide. About 8 feet
wide. We had plenty.
Hoffman: The specifications on the trail are 10 feet wide which...
. Resident: The sign says no motorized vehicles tonight
Huffman: I was pushing.
Leroy Biteler: That being the case, it is most defInitely wide enough for snowmobiles to
pass. Our trails, our Southwest Trails groom the trail systems so that that will maintain a
width of 8 to 10 feet because we'll be able to groom that both ways. As opposed to just
having one track run down with a snowmobile. As far as Eden Prairie. Eden Prairie has not
had the trail system for some time. It's no surprise that they do not want us to coming
towards that Eden Prairie direction. As far as Chaska, I believe there's someone here from
Chaska...basically looking at the snowmobiling in their community and seeing where it's
going to go. It's not been...deal as to whether they will or will not have snowmobiles in
Chaska. This trail will be a benefit to Chaska as well as to us as to make it a safer trail and
easily accessed to get away from making it a real close resident As far as cross country
skiing. The snowmobile will not bruise the trail. Generally speaking a cross country skier
would generally prefer to run on a packed trail, whether it happens to be packed by a
snowmobile groomer tractor or a snowmobile.
Andrews: I'd ask that members of the audience to please hold your comments down. We do
invite everybody to speak without being interrupted. Thank you.
.
42
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
.
Leroy Biteler: As a matter of fact the cross country skiers have a grooming system which
they groom and compact a place for the skis to run so we will not be ruining that trail. As
long as the snowmobiling is allowed in Chanhassen, I'd like to basically keep it as safe and
proper as possible and that is one of the objectives that this trail will do for us. I'd also like
to maintain a safe recreational activity in Chanhassen as long as possible. Our local club as
approximately 73 members. We've been very, very active in the community. Trying to
patrol our trail system and the community...
Meger: Mr. Biteler, can you speak a little bit more...about the safety aspects. I believe when
you addressed us earlier you talked about how this trail would eliminate a lot of the ditch
riding and some of the...
Leroy Biteler: Right now our trail system goes down CR 17 to the south to Lyman Blvd and
then go to the west, which all of that area right now is ridden in the ditch line. When we get
on Lyman Blvd and go to the west, we have to get up onto the shoulder of the road, which is
directly at traffic. Our lights must shine directly into the automobiles windshields at night
and that is unsafe for both the automobile and the snowmobiler. This route right now would
take us, once we get Lyman Blvd from CR 17, we would then go east on Lyman Blvd until
we hit the lake. Lake Riley and from that point we can access the railroad bed virtually
eliminating the having to run in ditch lines and...with a number of things and automobiles,
we're eliminating that automobiles are a problem with meeting one another. And really it
appears to me that there are very few homes that are really very, very close to that railroad
bed. In my mind I see a couple of homes, having to drive down that railroad bed, that are
close to that railroad bed.
.
Lash: What do you mean by close?
Leroy Biteler: I can only see two homes. .
Lash: Are they right next to it or is it 200 feet away or?
Leroy Biteler: One of them is probably 125 feet away. The other one happens to be the
house which is right on the edge of Lake Riley that has some horses in a fenced in area.
That is probably 200 to 300 foot We actually don't cross their properties...that part of the
railroad bed. If s closer to the Eden Prairie side.
Hoffman: Chairman Andrews, this overhead references what Leroy was discussing. I should
inform the audience that the dashed line represents the trail which is marked on their plan.
This dark line here is not a part of their plan. I just showed it for illustration purposes to
show what they're asking for this evening.
43
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
Andrews: Anyone else from the audience. Pardon me, are you done Mr. Biteler?
Leroy Biteler: No, I'm done.
Andrews: Okay. Anyone else with comments, I would again beg that you keep them brief.
We have a very long agenda tonight and we need to get through as much as we can.
Dick Putnam: Mr. Chairman, my name is Dick Putnam. I don't live here but in just
listening and we have a bit of experience.
Huffman: Where are you from?
Dick Putnam: Wayzata. I have the next item on the agenda, if it helps. A couple things.
We have leased land in Eden Prairie to the Southwest Trails Association for probably, I don't
know 10 years I suppose. Throughout Eden Prairie connecting to Chanhassen for a dollar a
year or something like that. And I'll give them a lot of credit. We've never had one single
problem with them doing that. As the land has developed however, their trails have just gone
away and we've not had any requests for the last two years. Secondly, we're developing a
project on the Luce Line up in Orono which is 46 single family lots. We've got about oh
maybe a third of a mile frontage on the Luce Line. I would recommend that the staff
probably talk to the city of Orono and the other communities, Plymouth, Wayzata on out.
There are different restrictions on what can be used on the Luce Line depending upon where
you are. As it stays further out, the further west you go, the more activity is allowed. So
snowmobiles are only allowed as you get to the far end of it. I think you would probably be
well...to look at the requirements that those cities have along the Luce Une...in Eden Prairie,
we have a development on either side of this same trail and probably a half a mile of
property... We have looked at that trail as an asset Not as a light rail corridor but as...same
thing is true with the Luce Line. Those folks I know were very concerned about having a
trail in their back yard but if it's maintained properly and developed properly, from a
developers standpoint...
Andrews: Any other comments from the audience?
Bill Kullberg: My name is Bill Kullberg. I'm the Trail Coordinator for the Southwest Trails
Association and I live at P.O. Box 34, Navarre, Minnesota 55392. I'd just like to discuss a
few things when we were talking about a railroad corridor. Even if Chanhassen does... non-
profit corporation. We were organized by 8 clubs in the southwest area at this time and... We
have the funding available to make this a multi-pwpose trail so everyone gets to use it.
Whether you're a cross country skier or hiker or biker, horseback riding and so forth. We put
up stop signs. We have the availability of doing any of the landscaping and correcting of any
44
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
.
of the steep slopes...In the city of Shorewood, it's a highly dense populated area. There's a
lot of traffic coming off of Lake Minnetonka feeding into our trail system and we've been
working with that city very diligently since about 1985. We still have a trail in a highly
populated area. We have a curfew there at 11:00. There's no motorized...there's a 20 mph
speed limit. For the last couple years now there have been more than a couple of complaints
per year now and the cops are down there with radar so there is ability to take care of these
kinds of problems. We do not allow 3 wheel vehicles or ATV on our trails. I believe the
Carver County Sheriff's Department has a special unit now. They have two snowmobiles and
they have...in fact they ask us for different activities that they can participate or trail
patrolling and so forth. They have two Polaris snowmobiles and seeing that this trail goes
right into Chaska along m 212, and their Sheriffs office is just about a stone's throwaway
from the trail up in Chaska... We also have a conservation officer...Thank you.
Andrews: Anyone else?
Resident: I'll be brief. My name is...regarding cross country skiers concerning the packed
trails by snowmobiles... And the other one is the...
Andrews: Thank you. I'm going to cut off any more comments at this time. We've got to
take action or we'll be here until tomorrow morning. Any comments from the commission
members about this?
.
Manders: I guess initially I had, after reading the material, I was contemplating something
along the lines of some type of yearly review of motorized vehicles but from what I'm
hearing, I'm prone to vote against any kind of motorized activity on this trail.
Roeser: I guess I really kind of, my heart goes out to the snowmobilers. It's a legal activity
and those people do hold licenses. They do pay fees to ride those things and I supposed it's
the same old thing. There's a few people that screw everything up for you guys and that's
kind of sad. I noticed over the last couple years that they've gotten quieter. You know you
don't hear the roaring. I cross country ski and I don't think we can, I think we'd have a real
problem with cross country skiers and snowmobilers on that trail. Especially when you get...
there is some danger there so I don't know if you'd be willing to accept speed limits on a
trail like that. I really have a, I really can't make up my mind when I think about it. I don't
see the snowmobilers as the villains that all these people do. I don't see them as, you know
they irritate me a little bit out in the woods too because I can smell the gas you know, but
golly it's a legal thing and it's something we sell. It's an economic thing. I guess I would
like to look at it a little more. I can't decide right now whether I would want them or not.
45
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
Andrews: I'll be brief because I want to get home before tomorrow morning. I do not
support motorized vehicles on this trail at all, in any form. That's it for me.
Huffman: No motorized vehicles during the summer at all. There shouldn't be motorcycles,
3 wheels hanging around there. I like snowmobiling. I make no bones about it. You're in
the winter. Your houses are closed. It's the doppler effect. It goes...go by. Or we also have
a right to have other people in your neighborhood hear about that so if we do anything else
I'd recommend that we move to put this forward so that other people can talk about. The
Hennepin County corridor here it says, in their minds we've got...but however it should not
be construed that cross country skiing will not be allowed and I cannot consciously think that
even if you're 20 mph. somebody on a pair of skis loses to somebody on a sled. And I love
snowmobiling as much as anybody and I cannot in my mind allow that to happen. If there's
people walking about or potentially walking about, you can't have a sled there.
Meger: I agree that there be no motorized vehicles in the summer. I guess I lean a little bit
more towards allowing snowmobiling on this trail. I'm not a snowmobiler. I'm a cross
country skier and from what I know of the area, there seems to be a lot of nice trails for
cross country skiing and the snowmobilers continue to be shut out and I have concerns about
their riding in the ditches. Lights shining into my eyes as I'm driving so I would prefer to
have something on a trail. I would defInitely go for a curfew. I would probably move it
even to maybe 10:00 and defmitely a speed limit as well.
Lash: I want to try to remember that our responsibility here is to provide recreational
opportunities for the citizens of Chanhassen and that is currently an allowed activity and it is
really feeling the squeeze from development. The more the city develops, the fewer spots
there are for snowmobilers to go. And unless we would decide to ban snowmobiling totally
from the city, I think it's part of our responsibility to allow a safe place for them to do this.
Now I have concern with cross country skiers too but as Jane said, I think that there are more
opportunities for cross country skiers so I would support the snowmobiling on the trail. I
would not support summer activity because I would like the summer activity to remain the
walkers and bikers and joggers. And I would definitely want it to be defmed with hours and
speed limit and I would want it to open for review.
Andrews: Why don't you make a motion and see if it will fly.
Lash: I would move that we allow snowmobiling as the only motorized activity on this trail
with the conditions that the snowmobile club would sign it and that there would be
enforcement of the speed limit and that there would be a curfew and that we would review
this item yearly.
46
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
.
Andrews: Is there a second to that motion?
Meger: Second.
Hoffman: And the clarification of Commissioner Huffman...whether or not it would be cross
country skiing or snowmobiling. Hennepin Parks...and maintain this for cross country skiing
in their operation because they do that at many of their regional park facilities. Thus they do
not want to do that. H the city of Chanhassen is going to...if you would like to designate it
as a snowmobile route, and then appeal to the other cities, obviously you have to consider the
city of Eden Prairie if you want to make this route occur and then you have to have it
approved by the Hennepin Parks Board. You can do that as well...
Andrews: I don't think Jan intended to exclude cross country skiers.
Lash: I don't look at it as a compatible use.
Andrews: You would like to see this as a snowmobile trail, designated trail, okay.
Resident: So I just need a little clarification here. You say in the winter time you only want
that to be available for the snowmobilers?
Lash: Well I guess I don't look at it as compatible with cross country skiing but if people
want to cross country ski, I guess I wouldn't personally have a problem with that.
.
Resident: Assuming they don't get killed, right?
Lash: Right, and that's my fear. What's why I'm saying personally I don't think it's
compatible. I would worry about the cross country skier and snowmobiling...
Resident: So let me...you're voting to make it a snowmobile trail during the winter...is a
form of recreation. Do you think there's more snowmobilers than cross country skiers?
Lash: I said there are a lot of other opportunities for cross country skiers.
Resident: Where? ...in Chanhassen.
Andrews: Please, order here. It's late and it's going to get rea11ate here if we don't control
this.
Resident: Just clarification. I understand what you're voting on.
47
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
Resident: Obviously the citizens of Chanhassen who own property don't matter.
Huffman: Absolutely.
Lash: There is a motion.
Andrews: We have a motion and I think we're all free here to state our opinions as we wish
and I think you're jumping to a conclusion here that we have certain opinions here so let's
wait and see what the discussion is. Could you restate the motion please.
Lash: Okay, the motion is that we would allow snowmobiling with the conditions that the
snowmobile club would post it, sign it. There would be enforcement of speed limit and a
curfew and there will be no other recreational vehicles allowed on this trail in the summer.
Andrews: No motorized vehicles other than snowmobiles in the winter time only.
Lash: Other than snowmobiles.
Andrews: And I believe what you're saying is that this trail would be designated a
snowmobile trail but cross country skiers would not be prohibited but they would not be
recommended.
Lash: Right.
Andrews: Okay. That's I think what we're getting at here. Is there any further discussion
from the commission?
Huffman: I would almost like to see this moved forward so the neighbors could, you know
we've got a group of people here tonight who, I mean the association is well organized. I
mean they're documented. They have done an outstanding job in the community. They do a
phenomenal job with their trail system and everything. We also have a neighborhood over
here who feels like they have been almost railroaded into this meeting and...but I would
almost like it to move forward for another time so they can sit back a little bit and maybe
have the people do care a little bit, and have an opportunity to...
Andrews: Our action tonight is not formal action. It would then be moved up to Council I
believe, correct for formal recommendation to the Hennepin County Road?
Hoffman: Yes.
48
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
.
Andrews: Okay. So there'd be another opportunity even if we vote, not in the way you
would prefer us to vote if it's your... Any more discussion?
Lash moved, Meger seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission would
recommend to allow snowmobUing as the only motorized activity on the Southwest
Regional LRT trail with the conditions that the snowmobile club would sign the trail, .
there would be enforcement of the speed limit and curfew and tbat the Park and
Recreation Commission would review this item yearly. The motion was tied with a 3 to
3 vote. The motion failed.
Andrews: Does that mean it carries Todd, or fails? Motion fails. Okay, so that motion
failed. Can we have another motion? I think it probably could split here, which would be no
recommendation at all, which is acceptable. I guess I'll make a motion that motorized
vehicles be prohibited for the trail. Is there a second to that?
Manders: I'll second that.
Andrews: Any discussion to that?
Andrews moved, Manders seconded tbat the Park and Recreation Commission would
recommend to prohibit snowmobiling on the Southwest Regional LRT trail. The motion .
was tied with a 3 to 3 vote. Tbe motion failed.
Andrews: Okay, I guess then I'll say it right now. We have no recommendation to be made.
We'll have to pass this up to the Council and say that the Park Board is split We're not
going to get any farther tonight by beating this to death so, thank you.
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL: . PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT FOR
PROPERTIES ZONED RSF TO PUD (46.56 ACRES): PRELIMINARY PLAT FOR 74
LOTS OF MIXED HIGH DENSITY (186 DWELLING UNITS). 15 SINGLE FAMILY
LOTS AND AN OUTLOT WHICH WILL CONTAIN DWELLING UNITS: AND
V ACA TION OF A PORTION OF WEST 86TH STREET. THE PROPERTY IS
LOCATED EAST OF HIGHWAY 101 AT WEST 86TH STREET. MISSION HILLS.
TANDEM PROPERTIES.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: Mr. Putnam, if you'd like to address the commission. Again I would ask, and I'm
sure you will, keep your remarks brief.
49
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 28, 1994
.
.
Dick Putnam: Well I guess at this point Mr. Chairman, I would ask, let me just quickly...
There was one other issue that was discussed at the last meeting, which was almost a year
ago. Hopefully you can all see.this. This is the proposed TH 212 corridor. Here's the
proposed park on the south end of Rice Marsh Lake with TH 212 to the south. And our
project sits in here just to the east of TH 101 and the TH 212 freeway on the south. Another
area that was discussed was this parcel, or actually two parcels south of the extension of 86th.
It's currently an open field with kind of gently rolling and there's a little drainageway that
goes through here and then down into lake and a marsh that we share on our property. The
discussion was whether or not that property if combined with the wooded portion makes
sense as a future park, particularly with the highway department purchasing this land as it
conceivably could purchase it all the way up so they didn't have to sever the Klingelhutz
property to the south. And that was a discussion that the city was going to look at, whether
or not they would do it Whether the highway department would be doing it to provide some
green field recreation space. I'll let Todd respond to that. I don't think there's any defmite
answer that we have because TH 212 is, lord knows what's going to happen with it That
was one of the issues that was discussed in dealing with the open play field space. This is a
plan that we discussed with the City Council last night. Basically a couple things to respond
to the staff's concerns relative to the amount of playfield space or open space. What we
looked at is a temporary pond that's being built here that's about a half acre in size that will
eventually go away and that water will be taken down to a major pond the city's going to be
building along TH 101. Also an area right through here that's about a .8 of an acre adjacent
to the wetland in the southeast comer of the site that has a hill and then some open field
space on the top and a nice pretty area along the marsh. Also there's a field space here,
about a .4 of an acre of so that we had proposed as berming but we'll develop this just a
grass field area at this point with plantings around the edge as well as a developed totIot. We
have a concrete sidewalk that runs on Street A. north/south. There's a trail system along the
south side of the street. Whether it's bituminous or concrete, I guess that's your choice or the
city's. We'll be doing an asphalt trail system here as opposed to wood chip and we'll also do
either limestone or wood chip trail system here and connecting in a loop. It also will connect
to this site as it turns into a park. I guess with that Mr. Chainnan I'd be happy to answer any
questions. The plan is really the same as what was proposed previously with the addition of
those areas.
Andrews: Any comments?
Lash: I would like to hear the comments from the Oty Council last night.
Hoffman: On behalf of both the Planning Commission who reviewed this at the preliminary
stage, the preliminary plat and the City Council, it would be fair to say that they were
.
so
HENNEPIN COUNTY REGIONAL RAILROAD AUTHORITY
Southwest Street Level Government Center
Minneapolis, MN 55487-0016 .
Phone: (612) 348-9260
FAX: (612) 348-9710
July 28, 1994
Mr. Todd Hoffman
Park Director
City of Chanhassen
690 Coulter Drive
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Re: Penna Agreement A12304
Parcel 73-33051
Dear Mr. Hoffman:
Enclosed is your fully executed copy of the above-referenced permit agreement. If you have
any questions regarding this agreement, please call me at 348-8089.
.
Sincerely)
4 r; #,.,/7
;<' Mj L/ d2O/
Larry L. O~ll
Right of Way and Special Projects
LW/sw
Enclosure
RECEIVED
,JUL 2 9 1994
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
Sandra Hilary Peter Mclaughlin Mike Opat
Chair Vice Chair Treasurer
BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS .
Randy Johnson Mark Andrew John Keefe Emily Anne Staples
Secretary
.
.
.
A,reement No. ~1
Parcel 7 ~ . ~ :>,' '-;1
PERMIT AGREEMENT
TIllS AGREEMENT, entered into by and between the HENNEPIN COUNTY
REGIONAL RAIL AUTHORITY, a Minnesota political subdivision ("Permittor") and
the CITY OF CHANHASSEN, a Minnesota municipal corporation ("Permittee").
IN CONSIDERATION OF THE COVENANTS BY AND BETWEEN THE
PARTIES, IT IS HEREBY AGREED:
1. PREMISES. Permittor hereby agrees to grant certain rights and benefits
to Permittee hereinafter described with regard to that certain real property located in
Hennepin and Carver Counties, Minnesota, described as follows:
The center 16 feet generally conforming to the track bed of
all that part of the HCRRA right-of-way, formerly the
Chicago and NorthWestern Transportation Company's right-
of-way from Bluff Creek Drive in the City of Chanhassen
southwesterly to Mile Post 32 in Chaska westerly of U.S.
Highway 212 in Carver County.
The said real estate shall be hereinafter described as the "Premises."
2. USES. The Premises shall be for the use of Permittee, its agents, officers,
employees, subpermittees, and invitees for trail purposes only, including but not limited
to pedestrian use, cross country skiing, and the riding of horses, bicycles, and other
vehicles, and for all uses and requirements necessary to the enjoyment of the Premises
for said uses. Permittee shall be granted temporary use of adjacent lands controlled by
Permittor as reasonably required for construction and maintenance of the Premises.
RECEIVED
JUL 18 1994
C1TY OF CHANHASSEN
15794
06/17/94
3. TEmf. The term of this permit shall be for an indefinite period,
commencing on the date of Hennepin County Regional Rail Authority ("HCRRA")
.
approval until termination in accordance with paragraph 4.
4. TERMINATION. Either party may at any time terminate this permit by
giving thirty (30) days' written notice of its intention to do so. Such notice may be served
upon the Hennepin County Regional Rail Authority by delivering a copy thereof to the
Executive Director of the principal office in the Hennepin County Government Center,
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55487 or by depositing the same in the United States Post Office
directed to the Executive Director of the principal office. Such notice may be served on
the City of Chanhassen by delivering a copy thereof to its City Manager at the
Chanhassen City Hall, 690 Coulter Drive, Box 147, Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317.
Except as provided herein, this agreement may not be terminated or revoked by either .
party hereto.
s. TEMPORARY NATURE OF USE. Permittee acknowledges that the
Premises was acquired by Permittor specifically and solely for the purpose of constructing
a light rail transit system or other permitted transportation uses and its associated facilities
and that it is Permittor's intention to allow Permittee to use the Premises only until it is
needed for that purpose. Nothing in this permit shall be deemed to evidence any change
by Permittor of its intended use of the Premises for light rail transit purposes or other
permitted transportation uses. Rather, Permittor has agreed to the terms of this permit to
provide a temporary use for the Premises during the time required for further planning
and development of the light rail transit system or other permitted transportation uses. .
15794
0et17194
2
6. RIGHTS UPON TERMINATION. On the expiration of thirty (30) days
.
after such service of said notice, this permit and all rights hereunder shall thereupon
terminate and be at an end, saving and excepting such rights as may have accrued to
either party hereunder prior to such termination. Permittee shall without further notice
or demand, deliver possession of the Premises to the Permittor at the expiration of said
thirty (30) days and shall before the expiration of said thirty (30) days, remove all
buildings and property placed upon the Premises which it may desire to have the right to
remove. If Permittee fails to remove buildings and property, its right shall, at the option
of the Permittor, cease and Permittee's interest thereto shall be forfeited and at the same
time shall belong to Permittor, or in such case, if the Permittor shall elect, it may, at any
time after the expiration of said period of thirty (30) days, tear down and/or remove any
. or all such buildings and property at the expense of Permittee without any liability for
damages thereof in any respect whatsoever and Permittee shall thereupon promptly
reimburse Permittor for all expenses incurred by it in doing so.
7. RENT. Upon any such termination of this permit, rent shall be paid by the
Permittee to the date of termination fixed by said notice at the rate of $1.00 per year.
8. OTHER USERS. The HCRRA shall assume responsibility for securing
such permissions as may be required from the Minnesota Department of Transportation
in connection with this permit. In addition, Permittor shall use its best efforts to terminate
or amend any permits or leases, or other written permission to the Premises which may
previously have been extended to others by Permittor and which conflict with this permit.
.
15794
00/17/94
3
9. SUBPERMITS. Permittee shall have the right to grant permits to
subpermittees on the same terms and conditions and for the same uses as are contained
.
in this permit. The Permittor shall have the right to review and approve said subpermits,
but such approval shall not be unreasonably withheld. Said subpermits may provide for
the survival of such subpermits by consent of Permittor in the event of any failure to
perform on the part of Permittee.
10. SIGNAGE. Permittee shall maintain signage, including kiosks, on the
Premises identifying the Premises as a temporary trail corridor of the City of Chanhassen.
Any such signage must receive the prior approval of Permittor and also identify the
HCRRA as the owner of the corridor and that the corridor is reserved for light rail transit
or other future transportation uses.
11. NUISANCE. Permittee shall not permit the existence of any nuisance on .
said Premises. Permittee at all times shall keep said Premises clean and shall comply with
all laws, ordinances, and regulations respecting Permittee's business and use and
occupation of said Premises. Permitt~, at its sole cost, shall make any and all
improvements, alterations, repairs and additions, and install all appliances required on
said Premises by or under any such regulations, ordinances, or laws. No bills, posters,
or advertising matter of any kind shall be posted on said Premises provided, however,
that Permittee may post on appropriate structures, informational materials relating to the
trail.
12. UTILITIES, TITLE. Permittee accepts said Premises subject to the right
of any person, firm, or corporation, including the Permittor inn and to any existing .
15794
08/17/94
4
telephone, telegraph and/or other wires, poles, and facilities of any kind whatsoever,
.
whether or not of record, and should it at any time become necessary because of
Permittee's use of the Premises to relocate any of said poles, wires, or facilities by reason
of this permit, Permittee shall bear and pay the cost of so doing.
Permittee also accepts said Premises subject to any want or failure at any
time of Permittor's title to said Premises of any part thereof and Permittee shall assume
any damages sustained by Permittee in connection therewith. Permittee also accepts such
Premises subject to rights of any party, including Permittor, in and to any existing
roadways and easements. Permittee agrees to provide to Permittor or other tenants of
Permittor access over and through the Premises on these roadways and easements should
such access be deemed necessary by Permittor. Permittee accepts said Premises subject
. to the right of Permittor, its employees, agents, and contractors to walk upon said
Premises to repair adjacent property and the right of Permit tor, its employees, agents, and
contractors to temporarily place equipment upon the property at Permittor's own
responsibility and risk for the purpose of maintaining, repairing, or inspecting or
constructing upon Permittor's adjacent property.
13. INDEMNIFICATION. Permittee shall defend, indemnify, and hold
harmless Permittor, its commissioners, officers, agents, and employees from any liability,
claims, demands, personal injury, costs, judgments, or expenses, including reasonable
attorney's fees, resulting from directly or indirectly from an act or omission of Permittee,
its agents, employees, customers, invitees, subpermittees, or other occupiers of the
. Premises.
15794
011117/84
5
Permittor shall not be liable to Permittee or those claiming by, through, or
under Permittee for any injury, death, or property damage occurring in, on, or about the
.
Premises based upon the construction, operation, or maintenance of the Premises by
Permittee or any subpermittee, nor for the loss or damage by reason of the present or
future condition of repair of the Premises, or for the loss or damage arising from the acts
or omissions of Permittee, its agents, employees, customers, invitees, subpermittees, or
other occupiers of the Premises.
14. INSURANCE. Permittee further agrees that if in any case the release and
indemnity provided in this section shall not be valid, Permittor shall have the full benefit
of any insurance effected by the Permittee upon the property injured, destroyed, or
damaged and/or against the hazard involved; and Permittee agrees that any and all such
insurance shall be so written that the insurer shall have no claim or recourse of any kind .
whatsoever against Permittor in connection therewith.
15. WASTE. Permittee, in consideration of the permitting of the said
Premises, as herein provided, hereby covenants and agrees to pay the rent therefor
promptly, as above provided, and fully to abide by and perform all and singular the
conditions, covenants, and agreements herein contained and to be observed and performed
by said Permittee and to yield up said Premises unto the Permittor at the expiration or
termination of this permit agreement in as good conditions as when entered upon.
16. QUIET ENJOYMENT. Permittor has the right and authority to enter into
this agreement and if Permittee pays the rent required hereby and otherwise performs the
terms hereof to be performed by Permittee, Permittee shall, during the term hereof, be .
15794
06/17194
6
entitled to quiet enjoyment and possession of the Premises subject to the termination
.
provisions hereof. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Permittee acknowledges that the rights
provided to it by virtue of the permit are subject to the provisions of paragraph 12.
17 . WAIVER. No receipt of money by Permittor from Permittee after any
default by Permittee or after the expiration of this permit or after the service of any
notice or after the commencement of any suit or after final judgment for possession of
said Premises, shall waive such default or reinstate, continue, or extend the term of this
permit or affect any such notice or suit, as the case may be. No waiver of any default of
Permittee shall be implied from omission by Permittor to take any action on account of
such default, and no express waiver shall affect any default other than the default
specified in the express waiver and that only for the time and to the extent therein stated.
.
18. BREACH. It is further agreed between the parties hereto, that if the said
Permittee shall breach or make default in any of the conditions, covenants, or agreements
of this permit, which breach or default shall continue for fifteen (15) days after
Permittee's receipt of written notice from Permittor, then it shall be lawful for the
Permittor, then or at any time thereafter, to declare this permit ended, and to reenter said
Premises and take possession thereof, with or without process of law, and to use any
reasonable or necessary lawful force for regaining possession; whereupon the rights and
obligations of the parties shall be the same as above specified in the case of termination
at the end of thirty (30) days' notice; and it is hereby further agreed and provided that
any waiver at any time of a breach of any condition, covenant, or agreement of this
. permit shall extend only to the particular breach so waived and shall, in no manner,
15794
00/17194
7
impair or affect the existence of such condition, covenant, or agreements, or the right of
Permittor thereafter to avail itself of same and any subsequent breach thereof. In the
.
event Permittor has to take action for repossession of said property, Permittee, its assigns
or heirs shall be liable for reasonable attorney's fees incurred by Permittor.
19. ASSIGNMENT. The benefits and obligations of this permit shall extend
to and shall bind the heirs, administrators, executors, lessees, successors, or assigns of
the parties hereto, but no interest in this permit shall be assigned, nor said Premises or
any part thereof shall be subpermitted, used, or occupied by any party other than the
Permittee unless specifically stated herein. Permittor reserves the right to review and
revise the rental application to this permit upon any change in the status of this permit,
the Permittee, or person occupying in the Premises during the term of this permit or any
renewal thereof.
.
20. IMPROVEMENTS. Permittee shall be responsible for the construction of
all improvements necessary to the maintenance of a trail corridor on the Premises and the
maintenance of said trail corridor. Permittee shall also be responsible for the construction
of all bridges and crossings deemed necessary for Permittee to maintain the trail corridor.
Construction plans, if any, shall be submitted to the Permittor for review and comment.
Permittor reserves the right to reject any plans for construction proposed by Permittee on
the grounds, in Permittor's sole discretion, that said plans are incompatible with hits
future use of the Premises.
21. LAW ENFORCEMENT. Permittee shall have primary responsibility for
the promulgation of rules, regulations, and ordinances relating to the Premises. The .
15794
00/17/94
8
parties hereto recognize that municipal ordinances and law enforcement may also be
.
involved in regulating the Premises. Permittee agrees to use its best efforts to coordinate
regulation and law enforcement of the Premises with the several municipalities in which
the Premises lie.
22. ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS. Permittee shall not create or permit
any condition of the Premises that could present a threat to human health or to the
environment. Permittee shall bear the expense of all practices or work, preventative or
remedial, which may be required because of any conditions of the Premises introduced
by Permittee, subpermittees, or invitees during Permittee's period of use, including
conditions introduced by Permittee which affect other lands. Permittee expressly agrees
that the obligations it hereby assumes shall survive cancellation of this permit. Permittee
. agrees that statutory limitation periods on actions to enforce these obligations shall not
be deemed to commence until Permittor discovers any such health or environmental
impairment, and Permittee hereby knowingly and voluntarily waives the benefits of any
shorter limitation period.
Permittor shall have the right, but not the duty, to enter upon the Premises
from time to time as set forth below to inspect the Premises for environmental
contamination and in the course thereof to conduct soil and groundwater testing.
Permittor may enter the premises during regular business hours of Permittee without prior
notice, and may enter the Premises during periods other than regular business hours
either with prior written consent of Permittee or without if Permittor reasonably believes
. that an emergency exists on the Premises. Permittor shall conduct any such inspections
15794
011117/94
9
or testing so as to minimize interference with Permittee's operations. Permittor's entry
onto the Premises pursuant to this paragraph shall not relieve the Permittee's obligation
to pay rent under this permit.
23. COMPLIANCE Wlm LAWS, ORDINANCES, AND RULES.
Permittee agrees to comply with all laws, ordinances, and regulations of federal, state,
municipal, and local government agencies as they apply to use of the Premises.
24. CONDITION OF PRE:MISES INSPECTION. Permittee accepts the
Premises in an "AS IS CONDITION" with no express or implied representations or
warranties by Permittor as to the physical condition or fitness or suitability for any
particular purpose, express or implied. Permittee is responsible for and has had ample
opportunity to inspect the Premises, is familiar with the same, and has determined to its
satisfaction the fitness of the Premises for its intended use.
15794
0lll17/94
10
.
.
.
.
.
.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have signed this permit agreement
as of
ejU')dI-R
, 1994.
Upon proper execution, this
agreement will be legally
valid and binding.
Date:
/;y---=~
~ N. Knutson \
Chanhassen City Attorney
Date: JuLy ~ '99,/
)
Approved as to executi,: ')
/' A I /
, '/ /
(. ~/ /
15794
011/17/94
HENNEPIN COUNTY REGIONAL
RAILROAD AUTHORITY
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
BY:'
AND
11
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
.
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Park and Recreation Commission
-#
FROM:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
DATE:
March 16, 1994
SUBJ:
Visitor Presentation, Southern Chanhassen Railroad Corridor; LeRoy Biteler
I have had the opportunity to meet with Mr. LeRoy Biteler and Mr. Mike Farkas in this regard.
We discussed the steps which need to be takento.address this issue. As commissioners will
recall, the Hennepin County Regional RailroadAuthority (HCRRA) owns the railroad right-of-
way from Hopkins to its intersection with l:Iighway 212 at the Chanhassen/Chaska border.
Hennepin Parks holds an agreement with theHCRRA to construct and maintain a recreational .
trail (aggregate surface) from Hopkins to Bluff Creek Drive in Chanhassen. As referenced in Mr.
Biteler's letter, Hennepin Parks is in the .process of es~blishing an operations policy for the
corridor.
Hennepin Parks has elected to ask the local units of government to discuss which modes of
transportation are appropriate for the corridor. We would. then forward our findings to their
board, who will establish thetlPal operations policy. From Bluff Creek Drive westward to
Highway 212, it will be necessary to work directly with the HCRRA.
Mr. Biteler will be in attendance.a.tyout'fue~Y.mgh~meeting to discuss this issue with you.
How you would like toP!ocee<ifrQmJlq~~~tth~i.q.iSCl'etionof.the~Q111Illission.
If the commission elects topl@~lh;isissue on a future agenda, staff will inf()rrI1 other trail user
groups and adjoining land owners ofyourlnteptio 0.. fOnnallY discuss the use of this public
corridor. .
pc:
Ken Stevens, HCRRA
Del Miller, Hennepin Parks
Mike Liddecoat, Carver County
Tom Redman, City of Chaska
Bob Lambert, City of Eden Prairie
.
.
.
.
March 14, 1994
city of Chanhassen
Park & Recreation Dept.
690 Coulter Dr.
P.O. Box 147
Chanhassen Mn. 55317
RE: Rails to Trails (Snowmobile Trails)
Park & Rec. % Todd Hofman
On behalf of the Southwest Trail System the Chanhassen Snowmobilers
would like to express our interest in the opportunity to be a user
of the abandon railroad between Chanhassen and Chaska. We would
like to request permission to allow the abandon railroad between
Chanhassen and Chaska to be used as a snowmobile trail during the
winter months. The Southwest Trails would maintain this trail as
we do the rest of the Southwest Trail System. We would like to
access the trail at Lake Riley, then travel southwest to connect up
to the trail system in Chaska, which also allows us access to the
State Trail System in the river bottom area.
We have spoken to Del Miller of Hennipen County Parks regarding our
interest of using this as a snowmobile trail, he was unaware of
this interest. He told us that we must first get approval from the
appropriate cities involved, then it would be likely we would get
the parks approval. He also requested we talk to the Railroad
authority for the trail section from bluff creek to Chaska. We
spoke to Ken Stevens of the Railroad authority regarding this
issue. He commented that if we get approval through the chain of
authority in the order described, it would most likely meet the
railroad authorities approval.
You might asking why do we want to use this trail ?
There are various reasons, besides being very scenic.
1. This would eliminate the trail going south of Lyman Boulevard
on highway 17 to Chaska. Chaska must reroute for the 1995
season due to development along highway 17. This is an
excellent solution to that reroute.
2. This trail creates minimal residential disturbance.
3. This would be a trail that would not need to be rerouted
unless Light Rail is in our near future.
4. Permanent signage could be installed
5.
Safer than a road ditch line.
Enclosed is a map showing the area of rail trail we would like to
use. We will be attending any necessary meetings to answer any .
questions and concerns. If you would like to call us with
additional questions, call LeRoy Biteler at 474-7590.
;240~
LeRoy Biteler
Past President of Chanhassen Snowmobilers
Member of Southwest Trails
.
.
i . . '. .- WAf"" "1 I / ~'~~l' ~ ......." '" ~~.-." '~'".' 0........""'...' O' ~
I .'. ~ ,...... " "~~ 'iT ~,..... ~ ""-P ~ ~~r:oo.~ -.- . . ,,,/ :....~ ~'~:.,:;; If
I. ~ : ;, . : - :/" 1l'i 2) .~ .~~ J ~/ ~ ; co.... . ... 'P ...... '~...__=.~~.-...= ........,...:.....~.:.:;.....)_ '
.: . '.. .. .," S....ftd.'. ......:; ~ ~L."1 1 ~ : .0" II. ,.. ~ """J..-
. ...~. t ': ,Jf SA"':"'" ..~....,t.AII: ~
; _~ '''0 .... .0; ...;.7 __ 'f. / ...., -...::!:.E: UICC'" . lID''''' : ,: . ....-,~.~fl
j..~7/-:: /"/'; ~..' r- 1 ~.... -. Ow", .........._~ .. . ~. ~.,. < '" ....:':.:................. - ..:::............... .~ '\ 't',
i;.... C: - . ,...:~ ..t - .-. L. ". . i ' ..... I
:p . ;: " ~~:-+ :;;;::':: "- . I. "" / ;i::l~5:-~,'ri~
1J1:" "..........:.::.. "2' " , -1. ,~.' ~.~~.. ,-
. s :1. ..l ..'OJl.El~-woon "",--~. ~ ," ;; ,
~ ~:.~'.;; I ~ " - .--~ '~I" ~.~!":r ~~~~p "'- . - ~:;::'=:" ~ <:f
,.'.. '.-:-:'.. .('.,' ,i .."..."'''''.... I ~ ')+1'" . l '-' _.."...-~'.., ..Aj---" 't'/ .' .:j -.,
. . I \ JI . ~ to... I ~"";"~. " \.."...~._oII1 f
~f" ~u . i i 10';,,,, . . ,'I' .~i-?::~ I' ~. '"." ~.. I! rLt';:' \~
~ I ~ . I '(' f " i:--.~.J 'Jjl .::::::::I.!' I G.'''" I. . .,,35
. ." '1 !~--j~. '-4.-: "--~ 1
.: J! I! I 'I f : ~JIl8t., . .~..... -,. - .. .-..-.
~ - .-.-. ..' -~.. 51..... - . -~.. ' '.. f.:''1? "/' ',.-- . O..:.~::::- :- .~:.. '. ~ . . . . . Ii
j 0"." '\ . ~~.:.- 0jf/,~"- /j-~-i " ~..~Y "", I
.. ""\ · , ZW~~;O" ~'d..I/'.J /..~ ~ 75~b t.~ ~ !
;. ~ I~,o,/~ ~. otr'\., ~ ~T. 0,,',' ~~ '~'~_,~~~!J ~.. !_ "\\.. It
.r\.I.,;~...",.0~~~~:.~() ~.."","C;\,'lA i:~~~~~~ ~_?.I"i :f~ :..\ ~'~ It('~ ~
~... , -., II "....,.,. j' t . ....!!!
) ,V' ~... . i 5"."', -"'~ ~ ..L .... ~ f.HAIfKASI II:
· ..... -- "'""--1 I r'\ ~ ~
_. 1.----1 ~~D".", . ~ ~ ' , vn ,.1 I... !I:T L--
~ ." ~.~ oJ eoR ""-. '-. 7 'I----..rrT, "- h..J:.. I' ~ I 1 ~ -
~..,.~..~..A_ 0;:......... r...... m ~r ~.,~ ..~.oj....... ~ "....
t, )~yp~~....~~"~':.~E. II~!.:\ ~ JU - J , ,:, I: .r....... -1
:\: e' ,;",,:" I;,:G( At &,...OR I. ~ 17 V ..- D
. ..T...:[O..., R.. ,,> C"UIIC" So II It -", J:I ~ " f'l.. --.0' ,. ~
Tw'D" .,,, .~..~~~ r;-:-;. ... ~.. r r- R" " " '"' 6. .JI ru~
U" I"~ l ~~:'. )... . 't j./" L.~. __,I
D. ..~~' ! · .. t' n ~ I.... - :r ..'Ii'>- __// ~ ) Iw.. '.fJ -=
, -!~ i(~~~ ~'~ 1 ~ t I: A~! v\ Y~ 111 ~~. ~..,.",,:.....,,-
f\. .. '0 L....J c.,... ..~ \:-. S 120 ~ . LY" 'Ii' ~lvo .:.
..,,[ liD ~~I' !"":~T"OOO '1 (t't I U ~t...... "'~~'t.. ~) ".' ....... I l .:' ~..
~ ~..,,[ 011_ _ . ~ ~" ~o.. q "t.~, ...""... .....;\l , .;.<,.~. !
: -~... i p";.,on. ~~.~I~E~~..~I"Trtr-..:.., ~. v)~ .... '"" ..:::-" cl _UM_i
.(11'" 1.0" -~'" 1 .0 ~ ~KL..(.~... I JL" 'T -~~' ---.
.. I 0" II r 'I I ~~lll ",,[y,(.. C,II' __ ?" 01011"'11&II IL~D. I. .::: t..
~- ....,- ~... r;-r; I ,..e[lh'~Oc. II~ 1~. '--- _,ft_ ....-
I <<"",.) I (lI"t It \ 2 ~~S"CiOO 011'\ It !r (" '~~ 14l.. PIONEEII, ttM"
II --.....- Rtlls' 110 1 ....000010 1 !~ / II I' r-.~ .. ,~It 7L
LA V ~PJ1" O'\' t"""~~';o , II R~ I -.......~~- > 0 "y 1U,' ~
nJ.~_..~'-J'~~' I I ..'d I ~I:h CHAllt ~'''' ,.' l. ~ t
I , 1 , .. ,,~'"1.. 'Il< IIn ." ,1/ ~... ~ ;,/;
~!I 0 b I, :"I.\'ioY' <' ~~ I) :.~:?....:~::::: l~ ~~. ~l~1
. W;" I' ; It j."~ "" U "'\ " ~.~~ II ."s II \ i .. tJ~ ~.. /~
~I II \ AtJGlJlTAV /~: ~ r'\ ,:.~oF"" ..'~ ~~ ~- L!
-- ~ "UGvSU I!/'I....., I'O~. ~ rrt\' .. '~YO.J ~t>>, ~"J
~ ~ '0 kt':'~;: i Ci{~~v ~
./"-... ..00 ~t = . '. oWl tllOU~ ~~,' ~ Ii r
_ "'"-. f - I ( ;0, ., ~ il.r- ,;. ,I I..VO .JS.A?,.,dI' ...6' .... ...r..._
~I\'~ '1\ L :~ ~ ~-'()"=."
/' .... ~ <rt",,,, r, I ( Y l\.. ~ ~ ;,z)..... . t> 'Huon
~ ~... c!lo LtU - .. 1"- .. ...,)1I~.'.'" S E S~E
\ '" ,..dUII.OOD ::otIIOGl"I~~ 110-- g.;'" ~" '..
, ! - II Avl ~ ~ ;:, I · .,''"-- IL MAP
~ .,' '0 " I CHASKA '12 ~.lo1f ~INNES
'i .... -~ ~.A' ~ ~Vtn..~~Y TR 5
~l\~AHLGRE N I ~ ~., I.l~ .1
\ O...cGIlEIT ,.' ~ ~
- _ ~ ./ I'''. l~ II _,,~ j: f"'- ~.
:~~ ;
lj I It ~ ~~,::
.;oo.~ II c.. ..r. R"'-(
)
~
., '--
";. .'r~: ~
~; I ~^
"
~C-r;i SOUTHWEST TRAILS
I;~ · j' ASSOCIATION
~OuTHWE~~: WELCOMES YOU
Tel' " . I _, _.. _ _ ,.... _ _ _ IP ....
I
....1.-...
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
MARCH 22, 1994
Chairman Andrews called the m~eting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Ron Roeser, Jim Manders, Jan Lash, Jane Meger,
and Fred Berg
MEMBERS ABSENT: None
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator; and Dawn Lemme, Program
Specialist
APPROV AL OF MINUTES: Berg moved, Lash seconded to approve the Minutes of
February 22, 1994 as amended by Jan Lash on page 14 to the word raffle to rappala. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
VISITOR PRESENT A TIONS:
LEROY BITELER. CHANHASSEN SNOWMOBll..ERS. FUTURE MODES OF
TRANSPORT A TION. SOUTHERN CHANHASSEN RAILROAD CORRIDOR.
LeRoy Biteler: Thank you. My name is LeRoy Biteler. I am a member of the Southwest
Trail System and a member of the Chanhassen Snowmobilers and basically my objective, do I
have to stand in front of this? ...My objective is to discuss with you the abandoned railroad
tracks that run between Chanhassen and Chaska to be allowed as a snowmobile trail and I
believe most of you received what Todd sent you in the mail. Have you had opportunity to
read that? Okay. Just a little bit about the trail system and myself I guess. I have been in
Chanhassen for 10 years and been a member of the Snowmobile Club for the past 10 years
and have been either President or Vice PTesident about 5 out of those 10 years so I do have
some pretty good knowledge and background as to what's been going on in Chanhassen
through those years. And the gentleman sitting here is Mike Farkas and he's done a lot of
the trail work along with myself. Our objective, our main objective is to eliminate, as I
mentioned in the letter, some of the trail running south on Highway 17. Get out of the
residentially type area and onto an area such as the railroad bed that is a better thoroughfare
and outlet to the Chaska trail system and to the State trail system in the river bottom area
which gets us further out into the residential communities. And I guess I would just like to
answer any questions that you guys might have. You certainly understand where our trail
would go and start and stop.
1
-
.
.
.
.
.
.
~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Andrews: You're looking for our support for this concept to take it to Hennepin County or
who would be the responsible authority here?
LeRoy Biteler: We have talked to the Hennepin Parks and the Railroad Authority and asked
them of their opinion, if they would allow us to use this trail system during the winter months
and they said, first of all our procedure is that you must go to the individual cities and get
permission from them and then come to us and then, if the City approves it, chances are
down the rest of the road, the Park Authority and the Railroad Authority would approve it.
Mike Farkas has had personal communication with those people by telephone.
Lash: LeRoy, can you get into the access and...
LeRoy Biteler: Yeah. I don't see Lake Riley on here. That's kind of...oh okay.
Hoffman: This is a trail, comprehensive trail map. Not snowmobile trail maps...
Mike Farkas: ...here we are right here. Okay, this railroad bed comes right along the edge
of Lake Riley where you would access it. It's probably right about in this area right here,
which is just over the border.
Roeser: You can go right up from the lake onto the track can't you?
Mike Farkas: Right. It's basically a little embankment but we can go right up from the ice
to the track and then down the track which is really nice. And then we can access it, we
have a property owner over here that we're trying to connect up with right now to access
from there and then come down like this off of this, what road is that? Lyman Boulevard,
yeah. And that's where we would access onto the lake and then up onto the railroad bed and
that would take us, that would veer around the city as much as possible.
LeRoy Biteler: And this takes up, when it connects up to Chaska. Is this railroad bed right
there...Okay, this connects to Chaska's trail system right down in here someplace.
Roeser: Okay, then you can pick up on the trail by the Courthouse and go east towards
Shakopee?
LeRoy Biteler: Yeah. And that gets us into the river bottom. It gets us off of CR 17, which
Chaska has got to reroute next year because it's just building up along CR 17 tremendously
and the same thing's going to happen in Chanhassen.
2
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
.
Mike Farkas: And that connects up with the state trail down there so it still gives them
access and then they're going to have an access I think out of Chaska. Which they're going
out around Chaska too. I think that's what their plans are. .
Andrews: I have a couple questions and that is, do we have a separate area for the
"pedestrian" or cross country skier or hiker? Traffic that would be separate from the
snowmobiles? Would they be sharing the same path in this situation?
Hoffman: The width up there varies but essentially that would be a shared use situation.
Andrews: One of my concerns would be that being that's a flat, relatively flat. It was graded
that way for the railroad, I would think there would be difficulty with speed. I think because
it's almost an ideal track for high speed that it's flat and probably level, I would think that a
lot of people would fmd it real interesting to see how fast their snowmobiles would go. I
guess I'm concerned if there is pedestrian traffic, those people would be in danger.
Mike Farkas: That's a possibility but what I talked to Del Miller about, about this type of
railroad bed. Is most of your cross country skiers won't go on it because they're rather go on
a looping type of cross country trail. We had discussed that with him where there is a
possibility there would be some cross country skiers on it but most of them do like a looping
trail because this trail will basically take them, it's a one way shot out. Straight out and back .
where they more than likely would like the looping type trails because we did discuss that.
That was Del Miller with the Hennepin Parks.
LeRoy Biteler: You also have frequent intersections crossing TH 101 inbetween each area
there and this trail, as in other areas, we have a railroad bed that takes us from Highway 7
into Shorewood. From Highway 7 into Victoria. That's also an abandoned railroad bed that
we've used as a snowmobile trail for many years. We see probably more walkers on there
than I have been cross country skiers. But not to say that there's any difference between
those two but the skiers don't seem to be using that trail. I don't recall seeing a skier on
there. It's not saying that they're not going to be.
Mike Farkas: I've seen one or two.
LeRoy Biteler: I've seen people out walking their dogs and a few joggers on the trail. Not
an abundance like we would expect of course during the spring fever times...
Lash: On the top of the map that we have on our literature that we received it's got, and I'm
assuming that you're going to want to go through Minnetonka and the Luce Line, is that what
it's called?
3
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
.
Roeser: No. Luce Line's way over by Wayzata.
Lash: Okay, what this anyway, it's got an 11:00 p.m. curfew, 20 mph maximum speeds.
LeRoy Biteler: That's through Shorewood. I was going to bring that up.
Lash: Are you proposing something like that?
LeRoy Biteler: Not at this time. Shorewood has proposed that due to all the, it really goes
through a large residential housing area there and that's why they had proposed that and done
that. And we have patrolled that and issued citations and done ticketing and things like that
and that's something that could certainly be done out here.
Meger: One of the reasons that you listed for wanting to use this trail is it's safer than road
ditch line. If you're trying to access the same area now, how much of the trail that you
would be using would you have to go on a road ditch currently? So on Highway 17, how
long of that is.
LeRoy Biteler: Oh I don't know. How far is it from Lyman Boulevard, boy let's see.
. Mike Farkas: Down to Chaska.
LeRoy Biteler: Down to Chaska you know.
Hoffman: 2 1/2 miles.
LeRoy Biteler: 2 1/2 - 3 miles.
Roeser: And then you have to cross TH 212 right, down there?
LeRoy Biteler: Right. Right at the edge of town.
Lash: And how would people access this? Do they have to trailer to Lake Lucy? Or to
Lake Riley?
LeRoy Biteler: We would be trying to get access down. we go up to. we go south on CR 17
to Lyman Blvd and go. take a left which is what, back east again? I have a hard time
reading a map. Go east. go straight east until you hit the lake. Klingelhutz. John Klingelhutz
owns some property there. We have talked to Brian Klingelhutz. We have not been able to
reach John Klingelhutz yet. But that would be our access from his property onto the lake.
.
4
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
.
Running the ditch line down Lyman Blvd.
Hoffman: The route they currently follow goes down TH 101 to Lyman and goes...and then
heads on down to Highway 212. What they'd like to do is come down TH 101 and then
head east and then across the lake, to the railroad bed and on down.
Manders: There's also a trail along CR 17 isn't there?
Mike Farkas: We'd be eliminating that.
Roeser: That's the ditch they ride now.
Manders: Yeah, that ditch out to TH 5. From Lyman to TH 5.
Mike Farkas: From Lyman we'd still need to use that part.
Manders: That's what I'm talking about...
Lash: So you're starting at Lake Ann or whatever?
Mike Farkas: Yeah, Lake Ann. We use that as a drop site for the people that commute in .
from Eden Prairie or Bloomington. If we get people from there dropping trailers...
Berg: Which part on CR 17 would you be eliminating?
Mike Farkas: A part from Lyman Boulevard down to TH 212.
Lash: So mostly in Chaska?
Mike Farkas: Yeah, mainly in Chaska...and I don't know if it makes sense to try and
eliminate as much of.
Roeser: It seems a lot safer to me.
Berg: Dangerous stretch at night when you're driving on the road with snowmobilers.
LeRoy Biteler: It's even dangerous for the automobile driver.
Berg: That's what I mean.
5
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
LeRoy Biteler: Yeah, with their lights shining through.
Berg: Very disconcerting to have lights coming at you from three different directions at the
same time on a narrow road that's dark.
LeRoy Biteler: Yeab. This is a better option for us to reroute and get to an area that you
don't have automobile traffic. We don't have...
Lash: How about the residential, how many residences is this going to impact?
LeRoy Biteler: On the railroad bed it impacts what I can see, one or two.
Andrews: Is there anybody here in the audience, other than you two gentlemen that wishes to
speak about this? Okay.
Hoffman: I can provide that since the time of writing the memorandum I have spoken with
representatives from Eden Prairie and Chaska in this regard. Again, to update the
commission. From the point at the city of Chanhassen border with Eden Prairie down to
Bluff Creek Drive, we would be working with Hennepin Parks as the governing authority.
Their Board of Directors. From that point, at Bluff Creek where their agreement with the
Hennepin County Regional Rail Authority ceases to the Chaska border down in here. The
Chaska border is actually right here north of Highway 212. You would have to work with
the Hennepin County Rail Authority. Tom Redman, Director of Park and Recreation in
Chaska called this morning and they're going through some discussions on snowmobiling in
their city and they would like to see a trail continuation at this point but he cannot guarantee
that at this point. They'll be discussing that in June or July of this year. Eden Prairie we
thought perhaps that they would allow trail...up in Eden Prairie. They have done that in the
past so some people can get on this trail system but it doesn't look like they're going to allow
snowmobiling from Eden Prairie east. So then we would have to make some type of an
agreement for the short segment of trail from Lake Riley, which is in Eden Prairie, down to
the Chanhassen border. They said they'd certainly work with us in that regard if the
Commission chose to do that.
Andrews: Is anybody prepared to make a motion to take some action here?
Lash: I make a motion that we place this issue on a future agenda so that it can be open for
public discussion.
Andrews: Is there a second to that motion?
6
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
.
Manders: I'll second that
Andrews: Any further discussion?
Lash moved, Manders seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission place the
issue of snowmobile trails on tbe Southern Chanhassen Railroad Corridor on a future
agenda for public discussion. All voted in favor and tbe motion carried unanimously.
Andrews: We will bring it up on a short agenda to get going on this. You need to hear from
us by, what sort of time frame to get back to the County?
LeRoy Biteler: Well it's the, from what I understand it's the Hennepin Authority and Parks
that need to make some decisions sometime this summer and I don't know really what their
deadline is. That's why we got the ball rolling now.
Andrews: We appreciate that
LeRoy Biteler: ...talking about next year's winter but that's why we hope to get ahead of the
ballgame and not behind it
Mike Farkas: I stumbled upon it when I was in Oty Hall talking to Todd...and one thing led .
to another and I'm going well geez, now I'm already starting on next year. Then I contacted
Del Miller and then they said that in June they're talking about what they are going to allow.
What they're not going to allow because they have horseback riding people that want to use
it. They have several different, full spectrum of people that want to use it and just
snowmobiling wasn't even brought to their attention at this point So what we did is brought
it to their attention. . We have an interest in possibly using it Use of this railroad bed.
Andrews: Well we'll put it on an agenda. You'll be notified by staff and we'll try to get this
moving forward. Thank you for coming.
7
.
PHONE NO.
~~T~Ti,@1J~
~DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL
Region 6 Trails & Waterways, 1200 Warner Road, St. Paul, MN
(612) 772-7935
COIP;fef,/Jd#OEN~€
.
RESOURCES
5~l~~o.
July 15, 1994
Rt~r~ o.
4. -A ~ t- . ......, <_
, ~,,~ f! ~~~ ~::~ ~(}
,jf I;
Mr. Todd Hoffman
City of Chanhassen
P.O. box 147
Chanhassen, MN 55317
~ lOa &,
f '! ...,-; .. 't.i.~' .~.
...... ' ," ,/~ l~ r,_.
,.....,>s,:.~:'\
Dear Todd:
It has recently come to my attention that Southwest Trails Association, and the Chanhassen
Snowmobile Club, is working with the City in facilitating use of an abandon railroad grade for
use by snowmobiles. The section they are interested in using extends from Lake Riley in Eden
Prairie down to the City of Chaska. Use of this section would connect the Chanhassen's system
of trails to the river bottoms area in Chaska. This in turn would connect them to the MN Valley
State Trail, as well as the Luce Line Trail. The previous connection was lost to the club due to
increasing development pressure.
. The Department of Natural Resources works with local snowmobile clubs through the Grant-In-
Aid Snowmobile program in establishing and maintaining a system of interconnected trails
throughout the state. Local clubs are the ones that do most of the work with this program and
help to ensure its continued success. The trails are well utilized, and serve as an alternative
transportation system.
I would like to offer my encouragement, and sincere hope that the City will cooperate with the
club in facilitating a mutually beneficial outcome to this project. An abandon railroad grade is
the ideal setting for this type of use as it is already set up to function as a transportation system.
ShoulJ you have any further questions regarding the program, or wish to discuss this proposal
further, please feel free to contact me. I appreciate the City's support of snowmobiling in your
area. Thanks again.
Sincerely,
fl,1cud\o.~
Martha 1. Reger
Area Trails and Waterways Supervisor
.
AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER
JUN 27 '54 11:24 M
F' .;..
.~
..
~
, :;5';'177/1 77e//?
~/.e:/@I'P~~ .Y'
City of Chaska
Department of Parks, Recreation and Art
.
TO: Todd Hoffman
FROM: Tom Redman
RE: snowmobile and S.W. Regional Trail
DATE: June 27, 1994
Thanks for sendinq a copy of your June 28 agenda.
This memo is just to reiterate that the City of
Chaska has yet to decIde on snowmobiles and trails to
accommodate them in the City of Chaska. The Chaska Park,
Recreation, Natural Resources and Art commission will be
starting discussion at their July 11 meeting.
We would prefer to have trails leading to and from
Chaska to be compatible with neiqhborinq jurisdictions.
Please call me with any questions at 448-3176 xl.
.
~
/"
.
1661 PARK RIDGE DRIVE, CHASKA, MINNESOTA 55318 I 612-44fa.S633
.
.
.
06-2E-1994 15:30
612 337 5151
BRIOL 8 vJIU1ES
P.02
BRIOL & WILMES
A. JtAOFESS10N"L. PAATNERSHIP
A.TTORNEYS "T LAW
3eo6 IDS CENTER
80 SOUTH EIGHTH STREET
MINNEAFOL.lS, MINNESOTA 5M02-2203
MAAK J. BRIOL
TELEPr10NE (112) 337-&4'0
'Tf:LECOPlEf'I (1'2) 337.6'6'
June 28, 1994
Mr. J&mes An~rew8, Chairman
City of Chanhassen
Park and Recreation Commission
690 Coulter Drive
P.O. Box 147
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Dear Mr. Andrews:
I reside at 10377 Heidi Lane in Chanha88en. I live with my
fiance and our two children, ages 5 an~ 1. A gooO portion of my
backyard abuts the path that the Commission is now contemplating
converting into a potential walking, biking, and/or snowmobile
path.
First, no notice of today's hearing was mailed to me. Another
resident of the Hesse Farm development was kind enough to leave a
copy of the notice in my mailbox. I have attached a copy of the
notice hereto. However, I understand that at 6:30 on even date
hereof the commission is conducting a "site visit" at the location
referenced in the attached notice as well as a public hG&ring. I
would like the Commission to have the following concerns in mind
when they visit the site and listen to testimony.
1. Env1~onmen~.1 Conce~n..
It is my understanding that there are unique sulphur
springs in the area surrounding this and that there may
be certain types of wildlife and ecosystems in this area
that reQuire completion of an Environmental Assessment
Worksheet (" EAW") before proceeding. I have contected
the Minnesota Attorney General's office and the
Environmental Quality Board for purposes of ascertaining
the appropriate requirements. They are presently in the
process of determining whether an EAW must be completed.
If not they have advised that an SAW petition may be
fileO with their office to c1etermine if en EAW is
necessary.
oe-2e-19S~ 15:31
612 337 5151
BRIOL 8., vHLMES
P.03
Mr. James Andrew, Chairman
June 28, 1994
page 2
.
2. Safety conc.rn8.
The Commission should address the following issues before
the path is opened for any usee.
a. Huntinq.
I have, on several OC088ions, contacted the Carver
County Sheriff's Department because of people
hunting on my land. My land, as I indicated, abuts
up against the old railroad path at issue.
Reoently, I found a hunting arrow with the three
razor sharp barbs very near one of my daughter's
play areas. I 81so found a deer blind on my
property. I called the Carver County Sheriff's
office and reported the incident. On at least one
occasion I have also contacted 911 and reported
persons shooting guns on my property. I have a180
found numerous spent shot gun shells on the
railroad path itself.
.
If hunting continues in the area near the walk path
it poses a clear and present danger to anyone
walking on those paths.
Accordingly, before determining
course of action on this matter
should determine if hunting Will
allowed and what police proteotion
to persons using the path.
b. Phva!cal SAfe~y
There appears to be very little, if any, regular
police patrol protection in the area of the path.
Rarely, if ever, have I seen e patrol car in my
neighborhoOd and I am conoerned that without
adequate police proteotion people on those paths
will not be eafe.
an appropriate
the Commission
continue to be
will be offered
Persons walking on theee paths, at night or
otherwise, present others with the opportunity to
oause phy.ic81 bodily harm which, beoause of the
remote nature Of th. site, could go undetected. I
eertainly would not allow my five year old daughter
to walk on the path without assurances of proper .
security. What security i8 being offered to allow
06-25-1994 15:31
612 337 5151
BRIOL 8., I;HLMES
P.04
.
Mr. JameS Andrew, Chairman
June 28, 1994
Pege 3
women to safely U8e the path. As you know,
recently a woman was kille6 in Moir Park in
Bloomington while walking on one of the paths in
that park. Unless patrons of the path are assured
they will be safe it should not be opened.
c. Fire Hazards.
Hav1ng a661t1onal people using this path causes an
increased fire hazard for all the properties
surrounding the path. On certain occasions the
property, in the summer, has become extremely dry.
The Commission should determine whether there is
adequate fire protection for this area. For
example, what is the response time of whatever fire
station is in the area. Are there adequate fire
hydrants available to allow the fire department to
respond to and to adequately address any fire.
Droo Off..
d.
.
On the path at issue at various points there are
significant drop offs or inclines on each side.
Small children, snowmobilers, bikers or others
cou16 slip off the path an6 suffer severe personal
injuries. The Commission must consider the issue
of placing appropriate fencing or guardrails on
either side of the path to protect anyone using the
path. It is definitely foreseeable that serious
injury could result if this issue is not addressed.
Path Not Wide Enouah.
e.
.
On one occasion during the past winter while I wae
walking on the ra11roa~ path east of Bluff Creek
Road I encountered snowmobiles racing down the
path. Becaue. of the narrowness of the path people
were required to move off the path to allow the
snowmobiles to pass. The snowmobilers came upon a
horse. The path was not wide enough for the horse
anCS the snowmobile at the same time. At this
juncture there was no room for the horse to move
off the path. It became very skittish and started
rearing up on several occasions. The horse kept
rearing up and almost bucking the rider off while
the.snowmobiles kept tailing the horse. Finally,
the horse came to a place where it could leave the
path and the snowmobiles passed.
uo-cc-~~~~ ~~.~~
OJ.C: "j"j( ::lJ.::lJ.
OK I UL 6< W I Lr~Ic.;:)
1-'.\:;1:>
Mr. James Andrew, Chairman
June 28, 1994
Page 4
.
Additionally, I am uncertain whether the path is
wide enough for two .nowmobiles to pass each other
or for that matter if it is wide enough to
comfortably allow persons to pass each other on
bike. in the summer or snowmobiles in the winter.
The concerns for public safety and potential
property damage again must be taken into account by
the Comm1881on.
3. L:L't'ter:Lna.
Several times a year I walk the back railroad path simply
to check the back side of my property. There are always
old pop cans, beer bottles and shot gun shells lying on
the path which I pick up and dispose of. Some of these
drop off. however are marshy and water filled at the
bottom of the incline. Who is going to be responsible
for the litter problems created by the increased traffic?
Who i8 going to descend the inclines to retrieve rubbish?
Accordingly, unless the city can assure appropriate safety for .
people on this path, can assure that hunting will be restricted,
will have appropriate safety barriers constructeC!, will have
appropriate fire systems in place and can provide for appropriate
maintenance, the proposed use for the path is inappropriate and
should be left in the same condition as it is. This conclusion can
be reached without even addressing the potential environmental
impact issues.
Thank you for your consideration to this matter and in the
event you have any questions with respect hereto please do not
hesitate to advise.
MJB/mlh
U542
.
L. Richard & Karen C. Dee
1201 Hesse Farm
Chaaka, Minnesota
55318
.
.. .~__~ 2.1, 1'1'14-
-rD : CAur. fasse n 7i,.t. _i n~~C71._ Co~~ ('ssJ6Yl
RDtA: ~r'~ ~\_L 12.J.p.n{ ..~ 1
E:k: : S. Wi.. ~.~ . .L.(T----rJu;li.Ad!:!."~ ""- 0+.
__ _ _ __. ________ _. _ _______~-h,,.z~tlt~~/~$
.
----, --..----.--.. .~ ._----------~--.~_._-_..--_._- ~--,------- ~ .---
~ r'U/;,{M-k ,,-f ~~$~_.i-7"'~-,,,.)J1qs.
~t:: ;:; ,::;,~ ~:~ -M. w~=~ o;p;~e4 m ---
-h> ....;k. () 5<' d SUO W JU.i>k ie& _by"_ JU.do~~z.<<
lIt-tui/es f/J'[ -tiL/$ ~yy,d()y. ____ ___
UJy' yU,~> 10,.... ?P~~--h"tn-- ~L fl,/u. ~!d. :
I. l' z.. hllt'yhl~ 3. t^~ .~. um_ -
. ~L~/fv$,b,hvs,. (~-~ ~S$ c.od'l.-+ct-
~ /L, US ~ jt() -t e.c -e.'tI ~ tAl ;./I" ..,.., SJf() w ~b,l.ers _ .___
Lb)-tft~ t~<;edi/n1- d -the- ~;I_. ~ b(di-
CVl~L Olz. wa,}!&{ bf ~(/S -h _ SI1.()c.J~b /~ ~__
&~/::,,~~ ~ ~ :~~~~'.ft __w)./ I.k-
~.P1qfv/L. 1 __ -rk-_ _{"'-~~~~_ _~!~e. lu~,,_ ~ _
f"'elluv6."tffeAedYius-Tt>- ~.~._~_~J
i+ Y1.u>-tov/z.d veh/~(~ u_6~~__-I~~~tfi~._--_--
il1+e--'-} - V<.sM4d3 kv~_~.. 4c$f;vr&<{
--rM+ 'I1toWO'z.<< vUticl~s wov/~ h<.._?YUhibi-l-ul.. __
-17> ttlnl10cmU C1--t -tht'$ -h'IH~ ~ ~~vlU-f('6"IA o-f
SY1owwwhi{~ wOeJlt:i he tAc~~sf- ~E~EIVE],s_
) . JUN 2 ~: 1994
su v',u -ro --rnis t:.O n, ;nvn I ~ ,
o CITY OF CHANHASSE/\I
.
-z-
--
Wi..- a!>t:.. -ttvd-.. YOrJ__(.I?Yl5/~4"__. __~Jte___ ~KC-~S .__
as LfoU rev't'euJ .-rhe y~tJtJ!,+ -b:> _4~v.:i~<- "71te..
VSt '* $Pt.i>w;MJ:b,~le> /)11__1tz~_ ~ll~_________
S"l4urd 6'
~~ (f.~.
k~yer, c. 'o~
L. Ric-h~,rd ~
~. /(~~\~.
-J
k
J2-01 I!USL- _~1J1. G'J;'c-k..-
'It./ $" - 7 7q 1_ _
.
.
.
....-/
~U.J0 Z
~ /9f/
/
.---
1<.-,//<7 //e-'r;:- .m.A-N
//rZIL ;ifNi? !feG Zf3/? -:-;c:?,-v
J.-"'?;::.;Z [; C_;;- 0 te:... _
c ~..-r Y
Dr
Ch' pf,AI /I'/i .5 ;;, e ~
'7-
(/ .,;. t'+TZ-
/7- -;';z.
d.-.'::- - ,,?--?A/..J
/"7"'" r /
/?,/Y?
:z::,v ;-::;; vi 0 jZ.
or
c;) ,-:-:z. /LI ::.^-- G
/~~ LlCi
C:Z)/7..~"j' .:r vc..:~-
./
, - ,'t.?'.-+-7
~,4 K- C
-.:' ~
L-:z.LC '{
70 c. /I ri' "5:-11... /1
.-
/0
... 5'/t- i",'~,.../ ,,,,/ iJ /~~:i:. Lt:. "5.
'7;4';:05 ?-JO~ ,--e ~' L.~?<..J
~I "'= M..
/-~~ C~--_5
--
" ,,'
r",E ~;/'-"~ .t3'5c::..7,r.J V./-Lc..2-'-;
C/ld ::; h /I.
;;;'Z.~-r ~.:;,
L-
~- :;;....:=-' ,. '.
//,)
~,r
.
~>:
.~
,Lc;5S C-"c'/v:-
/1-1;: 19 \L
'1'/,c
Co,<-'iZ~I7C>~
-
~
I
~::..(/ L;l..1 ~;:;..-/
4.. ;- t'- e:
.-"7
-;-;....L- c/$c- /c..L-7-;-,-r::~LI'Cy
,C? ~.O~ A_J":;:: ~ 6
/ ,,;- t!;.
.L/I rt:.' ';:'::'UcN;/--/6
AN.::? ~=c..-:'''''I
---
/.'c/VIE
~<.l...J n- e:.
- ~
-
_~:.o'_ ,'. (..0. 7<- a..j ,
.~~ --~ ,/'/
.!'c' ~/~~t~-
RECE1VED
_j lit'.) 2 7 1994
;- llG.J-..........
,--
~ i...--/
/J1 t/.. ~ L i- 5-t?-
c~:'{ C.F C~:,~..~;H.\SSc.i'~
/;251 h'f5$c r/JF?/I"1 C..;-/Z-
C Ii A-.5,L.. 19, ;"J ?;V ...5.5..~: /-gY
.
J~;,--~c=- :;J~ /9'7-,
~/
Tc/ :
CV~A/#-/'fl-n-~/,.j ?~~~.".D Te-c,e~/e?.:1'tJ C~~/>>~A
Rc: t/$"'tE
~,F ~C'~'-?o,l3/~c:f e74/~.A/"'I/~?/.A./ ~r L~T..!r
Pe;1-7C. C P~~/s-j"'/"t?A.J ~,>>;r,6e-,KS :
~' RECEIVED
.JUN 2, iti:;..;
.CJI.YOF CHAN L Ll . \I
flq._...),-/.
/"t</~ /r,r~e Lt"'v<!!:2) t?-v ::--#€ ~5E ~~~
s-/~c-c / '7 7?' ~Z> ~~~ .s-T~~)lA/q~ >- &,??or-e..D
T~ T"~ k/.r6"" C;~ s/./c-?~~ttP2?.-rc::..€f (?,.z/ :r-~-s
7 r:r/:-~,rv,..,. f- ..!
~...~c ?~/~?~i- c::::'CA/c-e-~A./ /5"" s-"~cTr--. p/,r"e- To
//~ L/~/___~c:--Z:> r/;;-~ Z>/$"'T~/~ ~<Z:> Lc~t::',A./
C:',C= T#-6 ?~r-# /,2- h//lr- ~? T#e::= #/c::..c::: C'/V' &-.
CREEk ~'/CJ' /T /7 ?~4cT/C-~,?}-- J"w..-?O~;";~c.:~
To' C7~7.?>eRL../E T#E ?~T~ ~~4/;D,?/I//#q, I/-/
.,.{Z>PI' T/C:~ ?~~ JC'~L:> C~'f'~t/t!:> ../4",r-r- ~ /;;;-
//!/~erec-;:r.r T#"~ 0&:-,2:> J?#e-Ro..-f-D St7)... T~/~
t/l/4r P4 ~E~/'~~.f'.> ...s::;;T6?""T~ ~Bc-e/#"t 8E.R?~ T~
Tr,17,-v .::::-/ 6"/V AL- (A/'/9- Y /" "A/Y:T~4::. ~,2:).. n ~ > "T/Yt!: ~/1/~.>
t'1'/c:=iei? C~A:?//1-/;c/c.. 1- ~~~e t//J"#bt::..e- ~Z> ~i?V~.l> S-.L'~~~~~
T,?':.r-# ;f rA/p~~t?.;''''c::;.~ /f ~/~c~r- 'Tt:> /"-4e;1/./e, 2T Y"'C'ke-.D
/h-5'C ?Jc ;r~#7~~a~4:".D ;r~ ~~/,c/t::; ~/""""~~ 'p~/v/,vCf
C'-o.-vP/T/~/'YS- /r /5 /Ve-c-tS>.r~J- p-Z? ~~/~./Tm# E/'f/o"!'t:i#
>'?c-cO 70 qe-,.- e{',p r-~ ~c=c... ~,.-vve-,e.rL fJ
G-c~r',~ c:; "zo.:.v...../ -r#~ /7'/LL. ~f'r# S-L / ;P~E:x:=,J-' .
LJC7/......tJ/,':r-~t?/C/...>,/ -S-7"2:'P/,A/q." rS V~~ I- J:>/FF/C~L~
.
C tt~ &~K ~2) ?ec,
h~,(/~ z S; 19'9*~
?~eZ
Ide- ~>v ~ve=- ~/./c:::'~S ~ec:r~'p'/A/c; r#c
/vblTF r-~r vv,/&:.<::- 4A/DOqST~~r- 3~ 6~
~.P r~ /..........jJP~T ";/1/
#~~ ~/~~ L./FE".
-
/' ~/fr./K >-CJl&~ )'7:7~ /.~-j(?~1"~ c&~,A/r'/,l:>~~.,A/ d?:=
7?7C-5" E
/ .5'f &'f' ~s ..
I-(..~ /Yd~ //../ 7"2??Y2>~ T,~ r--:/C?l?5'O""../""'~L)-'
~ ;P,Rc- -:>f &,~,e ,2?e-~ T/e?/../ /Z:J ~#/ r <::P>~c-s:-r'/""".../
2?.~r ,2)?~-,~ T"~ ~ r~/~f- 2?,#,"'c;;-,e-4'"e~;-, w~
. /"7?E ~t'/./~/-G" ;::"'ZJ B~ ?~e,..,..//-:r- ;;r-/,/~Z',.,f-I-' /.//9#-7;:
~ J 7!'>~ . ~
-~ /1./ Ce~~ / ,
Ljr~q
~~
~wgz> ~Zr/FA/I
;/..,/ ~:z I .r A' ;If
Ap.j)R€$5 :
//2CJ ~>rc &~ 7O#P
.
~
WILLIAM E. HARDER
Attorney and Counselor at Law
1025 Hesse Farm Road
Chaska, MN 55318
Lie. #41166
612/496-0770 or
612/370-6900
612/370-6412 Fax
.
June 27, 1994
City of Chanhassen
690 Coulter Drive
P.O. Box 147
Chanhassen, MN 55317
(HAND DELIVERED)
Gentlemen:
Pursuant to the notice from Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director, dated June
22, 1994 concerning utilization of the "Hennepin County Regional Railroad Authority
(HCRRA) Light Rail Transit (LRT)" and the use of motorized vehicles in reference to
that corridor, i.e. route, I would like to make the following written submission. .
I became aware of this request and the consideration of it by the City of Chanhassen
only serendipitously since I was not a recipient of the June 22, 1994 letter, although the
south property line of my residence is contiguous to this route.
I purchased this property approximately two years ago with the understanding that the
abandoned railroad right of way was strictly for use by pedestrians and non-motorized
traffic. That fact was a compelling factor in my decision to purchase this property.
All of the properties located in the Hesse Farm Addition contain restrictive covenants in
their deeds which prohibit the utilization of snowmobiles and other similar type
motorized vehicles within the confines of that development, thus clearly stating the
perspective of those homeowners concerning such usage.
Any allowance of such motorized vehicles on this route would totally change the
character of the recreation that was to be provided on this vacated property and would
create not only noise pollution for those contiguous to this route but, likewise, create
significant and ongoing safety hazards to those who would pedestrian upon it. I strongly
oppose any change in the character of the utilization of this route. The proposed change
would negate the philosophy underlying the route's dedication.
.
.
.
.
I am not familiar with the grant of this property to the Cities of Chanhassen and Chaska,
but I respectfully request that those deeds be perused to determine whether or not such
usage would even be allowed under their title transfer.
Respectfully submitted,
,
c:\ wp\h \chanhassen.ltr
~m 1.. r"A I "ULL~U: ~.
R IS E.PHAV'L
- 1:XIST'"G OUTES " ,", . ~"'~...~
AU T.:::....): I
6~ VJ\(.f\TE.D!'}t~' .
. 'J)' ....
- fRaPOSl: t) ~OUTE. il:;~~';ri:,~
~ ....... - r:of)::S::A\~~~;A~~'QI ., · ':'(:I~.~:~'
:'-.foi ,/1 U p :;t 'j:, ~II
-.:. . '.. ~.. · .. o. v ~':~11
'0000' "-l, n... , ..~..;"" ,:~""""" I.), ''/' "r!:. -.>- ".J _.:. '~'f-;:':: '0' ~
c \~. ~, ~='-~ ~~r ( ~~_.~,; L WC,..II ~ ~l.. I ii
0:.., , --~~c2 I I ;;(.14. ~.) .; err ~~~J~ l:.# 1 ~ \. "\ !
.....'" "--- , )-"\sr .~. ~ ~ .,',.1 '1IIi~,;,!" ''''~L~f r ~~ \<0, vi
, ~ ~o,.: .r.:~r'\.~~~~TC-~-"':_ ~l r:\i. ~~7....f "'r LeU ~. l~
~ ~ ..".~' - <> II TICTjollA -, < L....LO.. cr-',1 t l ~ <,
~ .,~ I ~",..~ .. ...,.. i. -..: ~ St,JoI.. I Ii ~'".: it II
u.......'-I"..,,9' ~." ~. ... ; ~
\.. LOU) _ ~ ~ ,= J , -'j II .~SI"V" .t'~ 5 L " -J HAmaD w ~ ~ ~I
> ,"'-J . : /,;O~ t ........ LAlu - VD l' I.. 5T, L..-
II, -'I r . ~~~,. \''\-,'' ~ 7A III T - ~ .~ 5 ~ ";;;r' _II
CIA~:---.II ,.....~ ~~ 1P ( i! ~_ _-...."
~.:';.~'!.\!.:NAC OIl - 1 ;~'" j1 II _,., ~ ~
~,CAROINA~ ~N '" J I'
I "SPRiNG VA~~EY AD O:~ " " I' V . i. .- I _
~ "W'NOY AIDGE AD \oJ ~ IS II - .. 8 16 ,"---.:- It ...-
.' IlT'IoISEA"'Ll AD ,. CHuACH '$.0. .~ 41 I ~- - " Lo_"'I"iT....
t..,~ld .IWILD*OOO ~c '> ~L"~~""" An ~'~ _ .I' S"'~Q~'
~ I AD Co., '] 4 ~ 'is) ......i""""!l! iJoi'l.. .-or If........ -~oa;
)), '" K"r .~ ,~ "T F ! I -=:
I <((~~ ~ 1~ Ii . i g y~~. . ~~,~~.._.,~~:~:
\ ",~, ,~ (t) ~".." ~ J61 \.L."~ ,...., V~D:",-
~ ~ ~ ,.,,,. .. :( .. .. I ,~ ..'
" ~ t' io: 12~ I ( .. ~ z)" r--...... ""..
AIlE liD ~ ~ "SYWOOO .~. I l.lIk. t- \~q l' k!;~' """1", ~ J ,< . '-
AKE OA.:---o~ L" .,AHO" AvE ~....,..) \.... 1I~" .:.'. I ~I
~"o. I... IIl$IiAOY L". . _ '-.. _ ) ....II
II) II P,...o., 1...5HAOY POI,,' '.-' .:\ V ~ . -Xtf" ~ _
'I't ~~A ~ ~o.. \~.....~It )' 110 ~= ~ ~~~,i:~\~ "\> 111.10...'..... II.'D..... I /~!
\ OR "'0: UO~h~ -- ~" ~ t ,..8ERlllooo 11:1./"1 "'"' ~'A. <II ~~ ~.~ ElL _ _
~O - ~(,.- I 'NGSwOOO DR\ - -~ ~ _ -_~ "'1 f
II ~ UNTEAS """c It Itll I AK~ Oft ,L II I:; II II'" l7 .:.,' """'" 16 r~ n --
ft "110 ~ ~ l~ .... ~,~ '"
LAKE1' OWN,.!) X. "m'UR:a. lift CBAUA .., .... I'V...\-.
10 ~ 4 '"''' I / · ~ I) ~ ,J." ..,,;;::': ~ '"'.I..l "'1:~1
~ .. ~ ~ A:~~::Y~~ .. ~yr.- ~ M ~ -'" ~-~I
:; AUGUSTA Iln I ~ I,.. t' ~i 'LVo. J ... " .vI
~\,../ ....I ",- i -w:..".';r:/~ E"_U1 ~ . l ~ I ".......lv-"""~ I
/"'-... ,,00 Iff',:. _ ~ 1 tLVO. ~....f:1' ~ ~ ,'- h' ..I,,~ L
- -~.J. I (4~ 1 ~ i ',--..-r"" ~. ~ ~ 0 ~__"'" ....
~\ I '\ il d . ...._ f. U-=
/' :er.p,oe- ~ ~ ( ::-' I\. ~~.. 'I( ..... t>
~ ~u~ ('!lo... Lok. qllltUIIWOOO !:~EDGE"t~ ~ P::~1 I..S E S~E
'Ii ~E ~ ~ ;:, I · VL . IL"S MAP
... .0 "I II ,:: . ~ -- O1f~INNES
1 qIA!KAfi' ~ V4\.UY TR 5
~1\~AHlLGRE N I:~ (~ .:tJ O.
DAHLGAO. " ~ " 1,
- ........ ./ 1I0~..1 .y;;...-- #'/1
-- II "") II E f """ _0.: J .,,/ r / .
I ~~.,,~ ,l~h
( . .gI
~
-
.~-
......
-
.HAKOll.
..
.
en
r ~~ry-, ~S?~J~~~~ TRAILS
WILLARD HALVER
470 FLYING CLOUD DR
. Chaska, MN 55318
.
SORENSEN PROPERTIES
J MICHAEL SORENSEN
ROUTE 2 BOX 187K
BELLE PLAINE, MN 56011
JOSEPH NOTERMANN
1205 WEST 6TH AVENUE
SHAKOPEE, MN 55379
CHESTER J. TEICH
825 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
CURTIS BARDAL
10301 HEIDI LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318
CHARLES MACBLANE
10320 HEIDI LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318
RICHARD NIEMI
10460 BLUFF CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
HAROLD HESSE
1425 BLUFF CREEK DR
Chaska, MN 55318
JOHN E TRUSHEIM
10341 HEIDI LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318
THOMAS NIEBELING
10360 HEIDI LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318
RICHARD BUE
10361 HEIDI LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
MARK BRIOL
10377 HEIDI LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
MICHAEL REDMOND
10380 HEIDI LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
RICHARD DEE
1201 HESSE FARM CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
SHERYl HOUGH
1225 HESSE FARM CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
.WARD MUELLER
1251 HESSE FARM CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
JOHN FORCE
1001 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
PAUL ALLEN
1002 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
DANIEL SMITH
1020 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
WM E HARDER
1025 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA, MN 55318
MICHAEL GLADD
5102 WEST CAMBRIDGE
VISALIA, CA 92377
PAUL HARMEL
1075 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA, MN 55318
FRAYNE JOHNSEN
1100 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
TODD J ROGERS
1101 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHANHASSEN, MN \ 55317
HOWARD NOZISKA
1120 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
BRUCE RECH
1180 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
ROBERT PERRY
1181 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
AiER BROWN
~OO HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
EUGENE JUNKER
1250 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
GARY WEHRWEIN
1301 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA, MN 55318
KIRK MACKENZIE
10420 BLUFF CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
LEE ANDERSON
6651 MINNEWASHTA PKWY
Excelsior, MN 55331
ANDREW GINDER
9821 DEERBROOK DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
JOHN LONSTEIN
1559 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE NO
MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55427
GARY A KOCH
9901 DEERBROOK DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
MARY DUHER
9940 DEERBROOK DRIVE
~~ANHASSEN, MN 55317
JEFF MICHELL
9961 DEERBROOK DR
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
LELAND F GOHLIKE
11661 MYERON ROAD
STILLWATER, MN 55082
VERNON TEICH
220 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
LEON MESENBRINK
250 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
JOSEPH KANDIKO
10421 BLUFF CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
ARI FUAD
6645 CHEROKEE TRAIL WEST
EDEN PRAIRIE, MN 55344
.
RICHARD NIEMI
10460 BLUFF CIRCLE
Chaska, MN 55318
DONALD DUDYCHA
6451 ORIOLE LANE
Excelsior, MN 55331
DONALD DUDYCHA
6451 ORIOLE LANE
Excelsior, MN 55331
DENNIS BARTHOLOW
9841 DEERBROOK DR
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
JOHN REVIER
PO BOX 358
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
GREGORY LAWLER
9900 DEERBROOK DR
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
DAVID J PELLER
1819 HAEG DR
BLOOMINGTON, MN 55431
JOHN S POULOS
7350 BRISTOL VILLAGE
APT #321
BLOOMINGTON, MN 55438
MICHAEL A BOYLAN
17700 SOUTHRIDGE COURT
MINNETONKA, MN 55345
RICHARD W DENMAN .
5105 FORESTVIEW LANE
PLYMOUTH, MN 55442
PAUL TAUNTON
10125 CROSSTOWN CIRCL
#310
EDEN PRAIRIE, MN 55344
THOMAS ZWIERS
11111 DEUCE ROAD
ELKO, MN 55020
EVERETT OLSON
1675 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
WILFRED H JR DAHLKE
1705 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
DAN TESTER
230 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
TERRANCE BEAUCHANE
240 FLYING CLOUD DR
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
LE VERNE M VASSAR
285 FLYING CLOUD DR
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
ALVIN LEBENS
460 FLYING CLOUD DR
Chaska, MN 55318
.
ROBERT STEFFES
1350 HESSE FARM ROAD
. Chaska, MN 55318
.
MICHAEL ARNOLD
1400 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA, MN 55318
NICK EVANOFF
1401 HESSE FARM ROAD
Chaska, MN 55318
RUSSEL BARTO
400 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
JOHN B PAUL
17541 MANCHESTER AVENUE
IRVINE, CA 92714
LOWELL CAMPBEL
415 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
TIM WISE
425 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
LAVERNE WHEELER
445 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
M.C. HAPPE
495 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
DEVAL MEDH
535 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
N A MONROE
565 LAKOTA LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318
TONY J DESANTIS
612 LAKOTA LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318
VERNE SEVERSON
675 LAKOTA LANE
Chaska, MN 55318
MR. LOIS A. RIESGRAF
720 VOGELSBERG TRAIL
CHASKA, MN 55318
JAMES SALERUD
730 VOGELSBERG TRAIL
Chaska, MN 55318
~BRA L. WENDORG
740 VOGELSBERG TRAIL
CHASKA, MN 55318
ALLEN ROTHE
750 VOGELSBERG TRAIL
Chaska, MN 55318
.
. .
-
.~
.....
CA.
I ~fi:71 ~S?y;[~yy~~ TRAILS
"..
IHAKO'II
(
.
AUG-22-94 MON 16:33 ATHLETIC FITTERS
P.02
.
NO TO PROPOSE'D SNOWMOBILE TRAIL
.
Ive lived in this area for several years now and have seen the area get more and more
rcsidcntialized. I don't have a problem with this because its inevitable that the area was
going to grow and be developed. What bothers me though is the constant disregard for the
beauty of the valley and area. The other day I flew over the area where the mining is going
on. It was embarassing that we allowed this destruction to ha.ppen. What used to be full of
muture trees and brush is now rubble. 1 used to see wild turkeys, deer and many other wild
species.
The proposed trail is going to bring alot of noise and nuisance to the area, I myself
own a snowmobile and received a letter from the snowmobile assoc. to vote yes. Well I
couldn't disagree more. I think its time we look out for the neighborhood and the wildlife
the have chosen to live here. I wonder how many of these snowmobile owners would want
hundreds of snowmobiles driving through their neighborhood at aU times of the day. 1m
sure they would fcel differently if they were the ones who had to live near the trail.
Once its passed its to late because it will be almost impossible to get the rules changed. I
know when the proposed bike path was being discussed it would have gotten much
opposition if it would have been said it would eventuany become a snowmobile trail. I see
many walkers and cross country skiers in the \\1ntcr using the trail enjoying its beauty
without the noise of high performance engines screaming through the woods.
1m asking the board to vote no to this proposed snowmobile trail. Make trails further west
where you don't have the residential neighborhoods that have to be exposed against their
will,
Respectfully,
Chan~n Homeowner
.
.
.
.
-
:3
CITY OF
CHAHHASSEH
......
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 .
....
MEMORANDUM
TO: \
Park and Recreation Commission
~
"
FROM:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
DATE:
September 22, 1994
SUBJ:
Review Recommendation to the City Council Proposing a 1995 Park, Open
Space and Trail Acquisition and Development Referendum
On August 9, 1994, the Park and Recreation Commission unanimously agreed to recommend
the city council consider a 1995 park, open sp~ge,and trail acquisition and development
referendum. The commission instructed me to/prepare a statement of recommendation in this
regard for your review prior to presenting theiJ8sue ....fc> the city council. My original intentions
were to include a mesmerizing array of facts.figures~and horror stories in regard to the rapid
consumption of open space which has beenqccurringin the city over the past few years.
However, I believe the reasons to consider a park andr~creation based referendum are fairly
obvious since we have all experienced the repercussion$pf the rapid pace of development
which the city has been emersed in. 1'he number of "los~opportunities" to preserve/protect
natural areas which are unique to Chanhassen have mounted in just the short seven years that
I have been with the City Park andiRecreation Departmentt In lieu of becoming
overwhelmed with "progress,". I nave chosen to draw insp' . on from this growth
phenomenon and continue .t.Q.see a bright future for the city the areas of parks, recreation,
open space, greenways,trails, etc. This future is not secure,? .owever, without a commitment
by city leaders to educate. our residents in tbisregaJ:'d", rally around the cause and promote
efforts such as aref~I'~Q.dumtQpr~~~M~:r~S9~~~~R29~y~l~~~~~[~~~g3al parks and
trails. Standing alon~~a city council, a park commission, a staIf member cran individual
resident, such jobs are rri()num~Rtal... But.if everyone is included~n~~}~J.'pcess, great
accomplishments can be made. As ParkandRecr~ati.OJ,lpjJ:~tQ1'.fora rapidly maturing city,
the most important element of the position ofp-tyJ9b is to perform professional work related
to parkland acquisition and physical planningancldevelopment of parks, open space and
trails. An 8~" x 11" sheet of paper folded in.plf is taped to my office wall with the
following words written on it: "Vacant land, the first and irreplaceable essential for parks."
That message stands at the door step of the City of Chanhassen today. It would simply be
irresponsible for me not to direct a significant effort to preserve the natural areas which have
been identified in the city's Comprehensive Plan as perpetual open space.
Park and Recreation Commission
September 22, 1994 I.
Page 2
.
I ask that all commissioners/council members envision Chanhassen twenty years from now.
The city will be developed literally bQ.fder to border with little opportunity for additional
preservation of public spaces. KDowing that this will occur, I would not be proud of my past
if I had not attempted to make a difference in shaping the landscape of this city. The fIrst
referendum to acquire parkland for the City of Chanhassen occurred on November 4, 1969,
25 years ago. In less time then has passed since then, the opportunities to undertake a similar
effort will for all practical purposes be gone. We owe it to the city and its present and future
residents to ask the question, "Are you willing to chip in a make a difference today?"
~
If you had hoped for hard facts and fIgures not soap box rhetoric from me in this
memorandum, those facts and fIgures will come if this process is taken to the next step. I for
one do not want to get dragged down in a detailed analysis of, "How much will my taxes go
up?," prior to establishing a clear vision. It is, however, safe to say that any referendum
would fall under the $10 million mark, a fIgure considerably less than the $21.8 million and
$46.5 million which were recently approved by Independent School District 276 and
Independent School District 112 voters, respectively.
RECOMMENDATION
It is recommended that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the city council
investigate a 1995 park, open space and trail acquisition and development referendum of a
scope yet undetermined and proceed to appoint a task force to expedite this process.
.
.
Chanhassen Residents:
f!iiJ
YOTE IYEsl FOR PARKS NOY.4
-}lage 8-4
,
THE MAVERICK
October 29. 1969
~
')"'4___-
Too melll}' c'lmmunilics have losl for.
ever the potentialities thai are yet avad.
able to Chanhassen.
It therefore becomes important that
some of Chanltasscn's natural resources
be Immediately pn:scrvco before Ihis
village also sellles into the dogma of "ju~
anofher community",
This hond issue will provide funds for
the rc...li/...Jllun Ill' our own,park system;
recreational faCIlities for families. adults
& seniOJ ci1 izens as well as neighborhood
play aredS and facilities for swimming.
tennis. basch;.dl, pll:;nicing. hiking. skating.
hockey. skiing and sliding.
....
WE SUPPORT THE PARK BOND ISSU(!
Mr. and ~n; Roman Sinnen Mr:-. Ed"J,ard H""....J Mr. and Mrs. Stan Frismort: Rev.. Dennis L. Lorenz
~Ir. and \In.. Htllr~ .'\11)Iin~' ~1r ~nJ '\ 11 ~ ih"r) No;!, Mr and Mrs. r<d H. deL," OJ Mr iHId \1rs. Qjff WeMlman
Mr and ,".trs \lorison BI,,;~1I Mr and i\h~ A. W. Owens Mr. and Mrs. Ralph Threw.... Mr and Mr~. Conrad Fiskness
Mr. and Mrs. Ray Sch null Mr ...lId Mn.. Gkllll MaltSOIl Mrs. Clara &0011 M.. ~no ..H'oS. Ro~ Casey
Mr. and Mrs. Mauric{> Bleed Mr. and Mrs. Richard Beckstrom Mr. and Mrs. E. W. McCary Mr. and Mrs. Gerrold Heikkinen
Rev. and Mrs, J. Orville Martin Mr and Mrs. Clarke Nicholson Mr. and Mrs. R. A. Roberts Mr. and Mrs. Walter Paulson
Mr. and Mrs Conroy Webster Mr. and '-1ro, Miles Lord Mr. and Mrs. Stan Tilly Mr. and Mrs. Harley Robinson
Mr. and Mrs. Steve Thompson Mr. and Mrs S. M. Osgood Jr. Mr. and Mrs. Paul Thompson Mr. and Mrs. AI Sinnen
Mr. and Mrs. ,".tar\' Muyres Mr. and Mrs. Jim Kelly Mr. and Mrs. Michael Rouleau Mr. and Mrs. Sleven Wolf
Mr. and .\irs. D C. Prillaman Mr. and Mrs. Willis Klein Mr. and Mrs. Hibbert Hill . Mr. and Mrs. AJ Harvey
Mr. and .'1", E. C. Seirn Mr. and Mrs. Howard Viken Mr. and Mrs. Jerry Pope Mr. and Mrs. Don Slathar
Mr. and \1rs. p, Larson Mrs. Loraine Roeser Dr. and Mrs. Jim 8ennyhoff Mr, and Mrs. Joe Glaccum
. MI. and Mrs. Alben Barnacle Mr. and Mrs. Richard H. Comer Mr. and Mrs. Ronald Roeser Mr, and Mrs. Terry O'Brie~
MI. and Mrs. Daniel Herbst MI. and Mr!l. Erlk Dund urs Mr. and Mrs. Dean Montgomery Mr. and Mrs. Lyle Ricklef.
Mrs. Richard Relf MI. and ~1rs. Tom Hodgson Mr. and Mrs. Glenn Ross Mr. and Mr.. Robert Bauer
Mr. and Mrs Kennefh Sotherlund Mr. and Mrs Ray Je ziersk i Mr and Mrs. Robert Reichert Mr. and Mrs. Waller J. Reutiman
MY and Mrs Nick Warritl Mr. and Mrs. Dave Palfergln Mr. and Mrs. Arnold Weimersk irch Mr. and Mrs. Newton Brisley
Mr. and Mrs Richard Pike Mr. and Mr~. Rodger Brown Mr. and Mrs. James Cranston Mr. and Mrs. John Neveaux
Mr and Mrs. Gerald S()derlind Mr. and Mrs. Ron Mielke Mr and Mrs. Giles Courtney Mr. and Mrs. Joseph N. Boyer
Mr and Mrs Dick Pear~lln Mr. and Mrs. Dick Mingo Mr and Mrs. Harvey Will Mr and Mrs. Gene Coulter
Mr and Mrs Rus.-.ell H. Larson Mr and Mrs. James Payseno Mr. and Mrs. Herb De Vaan Mr and Mrs. AI Klineelhulz
Mr. and Mrs Dean Scheff Mr and Mrs Ralph Kant Mr and Mrs. Elmer Kunerth Mr. and Mrs. Roy Roeser
Mr. Tom Klingelhutl Mr. and Mrs. Bob Broderson Mr Richard Lyman Mr. and Mrs Ray Diell
Mr. and Mrs. Robert Gleason Mr. and Mrs. Bonn Clayloo Mr. and Mrs. Ge",ld Y anisch Mr. and Mrs. Nel Brettineen
Mr. and Mrs. Berk Rodgers Mr. and Mrs. Robert Phillips Mr. and Mrs. Ed Hjerm.slad
For Further
Information
Call:
Minnewashta Park arc~
Arnie WeimerskHch
474-5733
Sinnen Hill area
Harvey Will
474-8168
Lotus Lake area
Sally deLance~
474.n 14
.3YHillarea
Wolf
4-782R
oOlal Grove area
Gladys McCary
4744471
Chanhassen Estates area
Conrad FlSkne"
474-5581
We Susan area
Don S1.th.r
474.7590
~..."....................""".."....1
. The Question On The Blue Ballot Wi II Be-
t
.
.
.
.
.
.
:
:
.
.
. (1) The beginning of our own village park system.
. (2) A community picnic area and swimming heach.
. (3) Neighborhood 101 101. and ball fields.
. (4) Preserving Ihe beauly and charader of Ihe village--
lwe Urge'";~~'"~:'~::e IY~J
~.................................
QUESTION NO. I
Shalllhc Village of Chanhasscn borrow money by issuing its
general ohligat ion bunds in lhe amount of S250.ooo to provide
funds for the acquisition and betterment of parks?
Where Do
I Vote!
What Does This Mean To Chanhassen Residents'?
I Chanhassen resident. living
ea51 of Cty. Rd. 117 vote at the
Chanhassen Village Hall,
.
.
.
.
Resident. living we.t of Cty.
Rd. 117 vOle al West Junior
High School, located on Stale
Hwy.41.
Prepared tnd ptid for by the Volunlur Committee ror Park. In CIIanbauen.
.
C ITV OF
CHANHASSEN
4
"'
~
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Park and Recreation Commission
FROM:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
;?(
DATE:
September 20, 1994
SUBJ:
Proposed Stockdale Land Acquisition
.
For some time now, the proposed Stockdale lan~~(;quisition has been on "simmer."
However, another step forward was recently ~entc:>wards consummating a purchase
agreement this past Wednesday, September 14~i On~at day, Mr. Stockdale and Mr. Scott
Miller (his attorney) met with Roger Knutsop:(the ci~ attorney) and me to discuss this
transaction. Mr. Terry Forbord of Lundgren Brothers Construction was also party to this
meeting as Lundgren Brothers is also antiqipated to p~chase a portion of Mr. Stockdale's
property.
As commission members will recall, the concept plan fo is proposed park was developed
by Hoisington-Koegler Group depicting a neighborhood Park of approximately 6.4 acres in
size. A variety of formalities (;OJ;lcerning any transfer of I s were discussed at this meeting,
but the issue of greatest concern to the commission was the roposed reduction in size of the
park. As can be seen.. tWO modifications are proposed--a tri.gular piece of land in the
northwest corner of theconceptparksi~wouldbein.c<:>rp()ta.ted into the residential plat and a
smaller triangular piece .()fprop~rty.~P11ld..~~ddeQ,~~~I?l3J:~ft'A~~tS!Q8~gale' s
homestead. The obvioul) concern is, at what point do we cross that critica.lliJ:l~when the
necessary investments to crea.t~and maintain a neighborhood park are!lpt justified due to the
size/configuration of the property?ThecitY'~..Coml'r~~e~$i,,~,pumrecommends
neighborhood parks be 10 to 25 acres in size.Atl~ss than 6 acres in size, this park would be
smaller than Curry Farms neighborhood park:i1lpresent, the citY maintains 7 neighborhood
parks smaller than Curry Farms and 11 neighQ9rhood parks larger than its 6 acres. A second
issue of concern to the commission is Lundgren Brothers' inquiry into locating a berm that
they would like to construct between the two properties, wholly or partially, on city park
property.
.
Park and Recreation Commission
September 20, 1994
Page 2
ACTION REQUESTED
At approximately 6.4 acres, the city is already compromising its standard for neighborhood
park size. Is the commission concerned with a further reduction? If so, what action do you
advocate?
Secondly, what direction would you like to take in regard to the inquiry from Lundgren
Brothers to wholly or partially locate a berm between the two properties on city parkland?
(See map for approximate location.)
pc: Dave Stockdale and Anga McBride, 7210 Galpin Boulevard, Chanhassen, MN 55317
Terry Forbord, Lundgren Brothers Construction
Roger Knutson, City Attorney
Scott Miller, Miller and Kellermeier, 3908 IDS Center, 80 South 8th St., Mpls. 55402
"
.
.
.
~
o
~
}
....
:j,~: '1 ...~: J '-1
\J\
"
Z
"
Y
.0
..
,.
~
,. "
r
--~
- ... -..- .... ~
.... I ---.. . ---. I .. ,..,
DB
mm
"11[ du.aO al'MS ..,hJ-,OB
U/l'1.91 ~
-...
"-(6 ~..... 1MI...
NV'ld J..d3:;)NO;)
NW .U....'lU.'lO '0 AlIO
)U:lVd OI:fV^31nOa Nld1V~
$
~~ l..._
-- ~......
~ ~_.~..
.
(
)
-..~
.
$
I
\ -~ "---.: -
:~=~=:"~ .; . ..- ~
'/ '0'- .... .. i
~~
..
I
.
o
.
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
r
,,"
-
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Park and Recreation Commission
;1'
FROM:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
DATE:
September 19, 1994
SUBJ:
Officially Name the New City Recreation Building Being Constructed in
Conjunction with the New District 112 Elementary School at Highway 5 and
Galpin Boulevard
.
Confusion over the new city facility being constrtlpted as a part of the new elementary school
is setting in. The facility is currently being mpst ~mmonly referred to as the "community
center," but this is misleading. Residents ared~xpeClPg a pool, ice arena, etc. The structure
is considerably less than this; more closely ~~embli&;g a recreation center.
RECOMMENDATION
It is recommended that the Park and ReCreation Commission recommend the city council
officially name the new city recreatiqn building being co~tructed at the intersection of
Highway 5 and Galpin Boulevard.iriconjunction with the w District 112 elementary school
as the "Chanhassen Recreation Cellter."
.
.
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
"
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
DATE:
September 22, 1994
1~
FROM:
Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor
SUBJ:
1994/95 Skating Program
Chanhassen will maintain six pleasure skating rinks and two hockey rinks at the following
locations:
.
Carver Beach Playground(pl~asure)
Rice Marsh Lake Park (pleaswe)
Minnewashta Heights P~k (p\~sure)
North Lotus Lake Park (pleasute)
Meadow Green Park (pleasure)
City Center Park (2 <ltockey rinks II pleasure)
For the first time, North Lotus Lake P~k. will have a pottable warming house. The portable
warming house will be like the trailyr we had for Februaij Festival, but smaller. An NSP
power line and phone line will bet;fenched-in in the near ture to make this site totally
functional.
The warming
on duty during
atiCity Center Park and North Lotus
Park will have an attendant
Sundays
4:00 - 9:00 p.m.
a.m. - 9:00 p.m.
p.
During holiday vacations and non-school
from 10:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m.
warming houses will generally be open
.
Flooding of the rinks will begin approximately the first or second week in December. The
warming houses will be open for nine weeks from December 17 through February 20. An we
have to wait for now is cold weather.
7cu
.
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
FROM:
Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor
v~}
DATE:
September 14, 1994
SUBJ:
Lake Ann Rentals
As the summer rental season at Lake Ann has the final tally has been calculated on
rentals. Numbers have increased as expected the number of non-residents
renting is higher than the amount of
. 1994 1993 Percent
Item Rentals Rentals Increase
Canoes 129 79 76 41%
Rowboats 28 22 7 75%
Rowboats
w/motors 23 67%
Paddle boats-
2 person 43%
Paddleboats-
4 person 236 23%
Fishing Poles 15 6 60%
.
.
.
.
7b
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
FROM:
Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor D~r~
September 21, 1994
DATE:
SUBJ:
Chanhassen Senior Center Fall Activities
The Chanhassen Senior Center has a variety ofijctivities scheduled to take place this fall with
Septemberfest being the kick-off. Farmer's Market,.Bake Sale and Craft Sales are all being
run by the Chanhassen Senior Center participants.J;>,roceeds go back into the Senior Center
budget for equipment and supplies or special projects.. Approximately 20-25 seniors will be
directly involved with working at Septem~~est and a number of others will be bringing
baked goods or doing crafts.
Other activities that have begun or willbe corning up this fall are as follows:
Smooth Moves Aerobics Class
Movie Day
Quilt Club
Men's Club
Women's Club
Trip to
Cribbage
Flu Shots
Crafts
Defensive Driving
Sweatshirt Making
Trip toW oodbury, Horizon Outlet Center
Legal Aid
Tony Saqqler Show
Southern Night - Saturday Night Special
,(Bridge
Card
Wood carving
u~ou~J:";~cmiors
rafts
Orchestra Hall - Moore by Four
.
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
7e
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
1~
FROM:
Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor
DATE:
September 20, 1994
SUBJ:
Develop Policy Regarding Use of Neighborhood Ballfields
and Weekend Reservations
.
Just as we finish our busy summer season, it i$<noW time to look ahead and make some sound
decisions regarding ballfield use by our local~ssoci,~ons. The best thing the Park and
Recreation Commission did was to establishilie faci1i~es policies and procedure information.
Having this information available to Chanhassen's 10031 organizations has minimized potential
conflicts and duplications.
It is now necessary that the Park and Recreation COmm1$$ion review whether to allow these
associations to reserve space at ourpeighborhood parks, ~nd whether to allow our facilities to
be reserved on weekends. First of all, we have had requeS~ in the past to use neighborhood
parks, I.e. Sunset Ridge Park apdChanhassen Hills Park. ~ith the rising number of
participants in our local o)gariizations, you can bet that req~~ts will be made to access these
facilities again next year. It would be in the best interest of lie Commission to decide now
about the neighborhood use:.I'rn.suretheiCoJ.'fin1issionisaware of the negative feedback
from the neighb9rSSl.lI'1'91.1n.di11g.the~parJc$,~~ell~.par~~~~p~.~;.~~~ig.side is that
these facilities wouldQn!~be used 2-3 months during the spring and sU~~~fehanhassen
will breathe a little easierwhen.~~ n~.~ elementary school fields~~T~<.tyby the summer of
1996. However, in the meantime, shorttermgoal~.JJlH~~pe4~eloped in order to best serve
our residents.
.
Back in May, the Park and Recreation Comni1,~slOn became aware of one group's quest to
gain practice time at Lake Susan Park on the weekends for baseball practice. This is another
situation that will keep coming back to the Commission and the time is now to act on this
matter. The first thing the Commission needs to decide is whether it is fair to permit these
uses in Chanhassen parks, since a majority of these groups are using these same facilities
during the week. As the scheduler of these facilities, it is quite evident that the number of
Todd Hoffman
September 20, 1994
Page 2
requests has increased over the last couple of years. It is important that we look for ways to
be pro-active in these requests.
One example is to re-assess our department's first come, first serve policy. The Commission
could look at limiting weekend practices and games to a certain number of hours during these
days, and to only allow these activities at Chanhassen's community parks and not at any
neighborhood parks. The community parks, Le. Lake Ann and Lake Susan. are better suited
to handle these requests because of the abundance of parking and the ability to accommodate
more people with increased ballfields, soccer fields. and other amenities. The weekend
requests will continue and I believe that we can brainstorm and come up with good sound
decisions that will be equitable to all groups.
I am looking to the Park and Recreation Commission to debate and develop a policy in
regards to ballfield use in neighborhood parks and also weekend reservations.
.
.
.
.
.
.
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
(7
(; y,-,
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Park and Recreation Commission
-4'
FROM:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
DATE:
September 19, 1994
SUBJ:
Trail Construction Reports
A variety of trail projects were initiated during the summer of 1994 while others have come
to a close. This memorandum will briefly desGIi~. those projects which are noteworthy. A
sketch map showing these trails is also attached.
1.
Powers Boulevard (CR 17) North: trailluis been completed on the east side from
Highway 5 to Santa Vera Drive. 'flle segment~orth of Santa Vera to Saddlebrook
Trail has been postponed another year due to table site conditions.
2. Powers Boulevard (CR 17) Sooth: Trails on b sides of Powers Boulevard south
from Highway 5 to Lyman llqulevard are being i~~luded in construction plans
currently being developedpyBRW for the reconst:glction of this road. This entire
project is being coopera~vely planned between the~unty and the City of Chanhassen.
3. Chanhassen Estates/Rice Marsh Lake: The asphalijng of the trail from Rice Marsh
Lake Park to theEctenPtairiebnrdetltasbeenpostpOned one year to accommodate
further c~'~trUction ..'in .t.his.'.area~[b~c~ty~.illi~~~(;il,X~M~il,.R(),q)+Jl...fPS vicinity
this winter using a backhoe. This equipment will be driven on thetrijlalignment and
would damage theaspbalt if it were in place.
...
4. Highway 5 to Lake Ann Park: ThetenClyation of this trail was completed in
conjunction with the West 78th Street' rovements.
5.
Lake Susan Park to Lake Susan Hills West 9th Addition: Joe Miller Homes has
initiated work in this area. The trail is passable from Lake Susan Park to Lake Susan
Hills Drive; however, Joe Miller Homes has not yet replaced/repaired the initial
segment of trail which does not meet city specifications. Two repair areas are also in
need of attention on the new trail segment.
Park and Recreation Commission
September 19, 1994
Page 2
.
6. Lake Susan Park to Chanhassen Hills: This trail has been scheduled for
construction next summer in conjunction with the reconstruction of Powers Boulevard
(CR 17). An earthen dam will allow the trail to cross the wetland in addition to
serving as a water control structure. The trail will terminate at Barbara Court.
7. The Meadows at LongAcres: (See map for location.) Lundgren Brothers
Construction is currently taking bids for the construction of this trail. If an acceptable
bid is received, the trail will be installed and Lundgren Brothers Construction will be
reimbursed per their Development Agreement with the city.
8. Trotters Ridge: (See map for location.) The city is awaiting construction of this
trail. Tandem Properties, the developer of Trotters Ridge, is responsible for this trail
work.
9. North Lotus Lake Park/Pleasant View Road: A trail alignment along Pleasant
View Road from Fox Hollow Drive to the park entrance road will be graded this fall.
Asphalting will occur late this year or next summer.
10.
Rice Marsh Lake to Lake Susan Reconstruction: The infamous "Glacier Crossing"
just east of Highway 101 has been connected. This low area routinely filled with
water/ice which accumulated over the winter. The trail was raised and a culvert was
added.
.
pc: Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent
Charles Folch, City Engineer
John Horn, BRW
Dick Putnam, Tandem Properties
Mike Pflaum, Lundgren Brothers Construction
Dale Runkle, Joe Miller Homes
Dave Mitchell, OSM
Jim Dvorak, SRF
.
,
( . ~ E
. III It " I ~ II $ II r.
"~~i~f~'- .-
I~-~'
: ~~T;~':~
,
l ~- -, i
"'. /
~" ..?'.
,-,~~~
~)
~
CITY OF
a-IAM-lASSEN
lASE MAP
~~
\",~1Ji,~ ;:
:c~;\' ;~:'" J . "'. ,.
". ~\'/ ;:-- -\.~ttq
-~'. ":, d ~.;t!. ,1--, _ ,'--
I -~" . / .
' '\ C " I
, T,~
4
5
- rr. ~~ IJO"T.
~
I
--j
(lfEYrsct ....~, IS94
7, "..
0-\ -
1
:-
6
~
,..
,
!.!!!!!!!!
. ern *-ll.
~.'.
-::::.-::.~1IOoIoD
--- ..~ .... ........
t'"~
[,
, I Iii i
f--
f-'
f----
t
f~-'
I ~
7
"
.
.
.
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
-
8b
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Park and Recreation Commission
//
FROM:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director
DATE:
September 20, 1994
SUBJ:
Restoration of Degraded Wetland, Located Southwest of Lake Susan in City
Parkland
As commissioners become acquainted with thejttfi(;hed map, you will recognize the drainage
ditch running southwest from Lake Susan. ~~ di~h was created as the area around Lake
Susan was improved for agricultural purposes{iIn dqing so, the original wetland which
existed around the ditch was altered, a new ~lass of~~getation emerged, water fowl nesting
habitat was lost, and lowland trees and woody plantstpatured. The vast majority of this low
lying land was eventually obtained as park6utlots as tlj<( adjoining agricultural fields were
transformed into residential housing. Approximately ilit;ee years ago, beavers, which are
common to Lake Susan, built a dam a~the location sho~ on the map. Presumably the
beavers were in search of better livi.{lgquarters with easy)~ccess to trees for dams, food,
house building, and this area "fit tlje bill." Upon building>tljeir dam, we soon witnessed the
blessings which shallow water.warshes bring with them. tails grew where com stood two
years earlier, muskrats and4ucks took up residence, as did variety of shore birds and other
wildlife. The pond wasali"e with new life. This newly cre wetland, however, also
flooded the Lake S1.1s.an.trailcorridOtiresulting in oUfide<nsloi1to remove the dam. The
destruction of th~ dal11de...wateredtlt~tn;W,~11:i9P~i~J..!~!~~ffi!~~~~~9~.. .~~.. ..9~~placement of
many of the new inhabitants of the area. The attached proposal describing tb.ewetland
replacement plan for COUI1tyRo~9~.~....~econstruction was design~~?B-1c~the best of both'
these worlds. The trail, which has nowbeeninstaUed.. wil1J'~J:11ainabove water and the
wetland will be recreated and improved. There i&.~heriotable affect which could be seen as a
negative that this project will bring with it. ~l'e~lfically. much of the woody vegetation and
trees which have grown up in this area over tll~years will die as the wetland reclaims its
former boundaries.
It is not often in these times of rapid development that we are able to recreate wetlands which
formerly existed. Therefore it is with great anticipation that we await this project. If
commission members have any concerns or directives in regard to this project, I will pass
them on to our Project Engineer at BRW.
illKDt.. 'r, \.'. I
t :-'\. '
I
B R W 11\'C.
Planning
Transportation
Engineering
Urban Design
Thresher Square
700 Third Street So.
Minneapo:is,
MN 55415
612/370-0700
Fax 612/370-1378
Denver
Milwaukee
Minneapolis
Orlando
Phoenix
Portland
San Diego
Seat~]e
Donald IN. Ringrose
Richard P. Wolsfeld
Thomas F. Carroll
Craig A. Amundsen
Donald E Hunt
John B. Mcl':amara
Richard D. Pilgrim
Dale N. Beckmann
Jeffery L. Benson
Ralph C. Blum
Gary J. Erickson
john C. Lynch
Paul K Bay
Sabri Ayaz
Gary A. Ehret
Anthony Heppelmann
Arijs Pakalns
Martha McPhee
Howard P. PrestOJ~
De"nis r Probst
'8'612 370 1378
BRW INC
.0021004
~
.
September 6, 1994
Ms. Diane Desotelle
City of Chanhassen
6990 Coulter Drive
PO Box 147
Chanhassen,.MN 55317
Re: Wetland Replacement Plan for County Road 17
Reconstruction
Dear Diane:
Attached is the latest plan for the proposed wetland
replacement for the County Road 17 reconstruction
project. It includes both wetland creation and wetland
restoration. It also results in providing more wetland
compensation than is required for this project.
ACCording to the a~~ached plan approximately 3.0 acres
of wetland will b~ created adjacent to the existing
wetland A. This will be accomplished by excavating out
a small upland area, removing one to two feet of
material graded at a 10: 1 slope. A water control
structure would also be constructed in the area of the
City's proposed trail crossing over the existing
drainage ditch. As a result, the water level is
expected to increase from the estimated existing
elevation of 881 to an elevation of approximately 883
to 883.5. The new wetland created will consist mainly
of type 3 wetland characteristics.
.
Due to the proposed water level increase needed for the
wetland creation area, water levels will also increase
in the adjacent 40 acre wetland (A). As a result, the
existing type 1 characteristics will be converted to
type 3 characteristics. Using the Public Value Credit
formula required by the Wetland Conservation Act, the
acreage credit gained by converting 40 acres of type 1
to type 3, through restoration, is approximately 26.6
acres.
Given that the proposed replacement creates both Public
Value Credits (PVC) and New Wetland Credit (NWC), both
can be used as replacement for this project. A total
of 1.55 acres of NWC will be used along with 1.55 acres
of PVC. Therefore, the remaining 1.45 acres of NWC and
.
. -
.
.
.
'8'612 370 1378
BRW INC
.003/004
25.05 acres of PVC can be deposited into the state
wetland bank in six months (for PVC) to a year (for
NWC) .
Further details regarding this mitigation plan will be
reviewed and coordinated with the City's planning and
parks staff. If you have any questions, please give me
a call.
Sincerely,
B%dtgJ~
. BetJ:;i.~n'kl--e:r .
~etland Specialist
Enclosure
cc: Todd Hoffman, City Parks
Jon Horn, BRW
Greg Brown, BRW
09/19/94
14: Iti
'O'liH 370 137/i
tiKI'! INL;
() . __ 'J /')
'J-.-?..i)LJJC--z. fit 1-;1) I ~~JIJ c!2-[. DI r
fV W~ ; TC'rAl... e..R-[..~ /[.1)
'~
. .,/ l J..." ·
i L, CJ
~/ti'?; .~.
tAL- C-() ::...A7 ld'u 5
3 .C A cJ2..C.5
U ~ . i"'\ I I. I __I . /; (. ~L_/",' /'
5 t-v j' ~ ,~ -" 'I - - .::;
(JIM rc /3 i 6A'A2j.J j . !-/s- I~ /
(K~
~-~
\" n
.<. K.
"'''l rJ">,
\i< !< .-
.:.':: 1')
/ ~?, -- ; ""\
I ~'-_"_,1
',-
....:3,... -,,/
.;.~-);:. J ~~,
> '...: ".J'I
-' ,,.;-'~
.() -,~~~ :,.~ / )
~
-....
- j
'\
\
\
)
u.i~1
';;::.' td.
J I-f' J /,," L -;?
r;"J? !;' / .~'- .,.)
" ""
,
-1
1", .S: l ~~!-.
-,:,,,:
~,~ /'7:-.1) ,i,.' i)
,rt ..:',.,c:.. .~_ $.
-
~:'<..!',.:'f~
",',t " ;.) - ..
:'1 -...-"'"-",,-
,"/ ) ,. '"' r' ""
~.-''- .l..... .J - :.- (,,)
, ,
~/;,. ..<,c'
:---.
, I
// C"'~:-.s
;...-- .,'
, - --
-. .I .-.
_,,:" I ...
::.:- .,;,.---
f , '_' '-~-
~--_._...
/) ~ .~~ .:...-.;-
"-;'I' -2
,,,- '- -
, -.. - ---
./-(' ,f -,' ...... ~ ......0 ~~ :.
z;,1 ,I..... ......._J,,'
..KJ :::....,,2. ,...'
- -
.....\
Ji j
, ./
LgJ VV'l/ VV'l
"\
5~'
~/7~:
.
.
.
.
.
.
IOt1v
----
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
JUL Y 26, 1994
Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Jane Megers, Jan Lash, Jim Manders, Ron Roeser
and Fred Berg
MEMBERS ABSENT: Dave Huffman
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director; Jerry Ruegemer,
Recreation Supervisor; Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor and Michelle Braun, Recreation
Intern
APPROV AL OF AGENDA:
Andrews: Are there any additions to the agenda that anybody has at this time? Of course
we're free to add items later.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
PRESENT A TION OF MINNESOTA RECREATION AND PARK ASSOCIATION
AWARD OF EXCELLENCE. LAKE ANN PARK PICNIC/RECREATION SHELTER.
Hoffman: Chairperson Andrews, members of the Commission. Tonight we have among us
some distinguished guests from both the MRPA. Our Executive Director, John Gerben and
from the city of Shakopee Park and Recreation Department, Mark McQuillan. Mark works
on the awards committee for the MRP A Award of Excellence and the City of Chanhassen
was fortunate enough to be recipient of that award in the category of facilities for the Lake
Ann Park shelter. With that I'll turn it over to Mark.
Mark McQuillan: Thank you Todd. Appreciate this opportunity to appear before you tonight
to present you with what we think is a very prestigious award in our profession. As Todd
eluded to, I serve on the MRP A A wards Committee and I think this is about the third or
fourth year now I've been on this committee and it's a really interesting perspective to see a
lot of different projects and programs and facilities that are presented to us for awards and it's
gaining a lot of popularity. It's getting more difficult every year to try to judge. We'd like
to give everyone an award and establish this criteria and it's really difficult sometimes
because I think really the recreation movement is really catching on and the benefits of it
that, I don't want to steal the thunder from John who's here to talk a little about the benefits.
The MRPA Awards Committee presents awards for facility, programming, volunteer
1
sponsorship, and demonstration. The projects are submitted to the committee early in the
year and generally under the criteria that they have to be completed the year prior to the
presentation to the committee. It's my understanding that your Lake Ann picnic shelter
project is actually almost 10 years old from it's very beginning when it was first initiated. I
think one of the things that stands out as far as to the committee on this award was the fact
that the persistence that your community has to make sure that this became a reality. I think
that's something that you should be commended for. In addition to that, we want to present
an award and so it's, and I'd like to maybe ask your Chair, Mr. Andrews, if he'd like to
come out and do you have a picture. It says the Award of Excellence, which is presented to
the City of Chanhassen for the Lake Ann Park Picnic and Recreation Shelter for setting the
standard of excellence... recreation and parks...services, 1994 and it's presented on behalf of
the Minnesota Recreation and Park Association. I would also like to now ask that John
Gerben, who's the Executive Director of MRP A come forward for a short presentation.
John Gerben: Short? Todd mentioned that I would give about 30 minutes. Actually he
threw me off right at the beginning when he referred to me as distinguished. I absolutely
didn't know and I've gotten further thrown out that usually when I do a presentation, I'm
used to people leaving the audience but never walking in and sitting down as a part of the
audience so if I'm a little uneasy, that would be why. The Minnesota Recreation and Park
Association is a professional organization of parks and recreation in the State of Minnesota.
It's not a State funded organization. It's funded by a membership that's funded by the
members that we have here and we're pleased that 3 of our professional members are from
Chanhassen. We also have agency memberships and corporate sponsorships and all this kind
of fits together through the membership fees. Through our recreation and sports commission
that sanctions softball and youth events and State conferences is how our association operates.
The purpose of our association is to further the parks and recreation efforts throughout the
State that we hope improves the quality of life for everybody in Minnesota and certainly by
trying to encouraging communities like Chanhassen to continue to develop a fine park system
with things like the Lake Ann shelter there, certainly encourages us that the message is being
received by the communities and that in fact the quality of life in the communities throughout
Minnesota is improving. And I would venture to say that without the outstanding park
system that's emerging in Chanhassen, I w'onder what the quality of like would be. I wonder
what some of the attractions to this community would be. It's been very clear in a number of
studies that have been done that a strong park and recreation system in your community is an
attraction for people to come there and to live there and to be involved. It's one of the things
that help you become a community through parks and recreation department that does a lot of
your festivals. It does a lot of your special events and gives us that chance today in what is
becoming an increasingly fragmented society where everybody's looking after kind of their
own interest, for a chance to come together and be a community. Kind of like the old days
and what it used to be and it seems to me that Chanhassen, in looking at their plans and what
they've done, is very cognizant of that fact. That you want those ideals that were around
from years past. You want to be able to manage the growth. You want that sense of
community in a strong park and recreation department. A strong park and recreation
commitment certainly helps that occur. What I have for you is really just two things outside
2
.
.
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
of my additional congratulations on winning the award. I have a fact sheet about our
Minnesota Recreation and Park Association. Just in case anybody is having trouble sleeping
at night, I'm told that by reading this you won't have that problem any longer. It does point
out a few things of our association. The other thing that we have is a reminder about the
benefits of parks and recreation and we put together this poster that explains some of the
benefits to it. We encourage you to hang it up somewhere prominently. Either one of your
recreation facilities or perhaps right behind the Mayor as a reminder that when you're seeking
support for some of your endeavors, that you can point to the poster and say, I think that's
point number 3 which justifies this request for support. So if I could Mr. Chair I'd be, I'm
going to have to see how this goes on brick. But I'd like to present you with our benefits of
parks and recreation poster. This is the handy carrying size.
Andrews: Thank you very much.
John Gerben: Thank you.
Andrews: I'd like to say thank you on behalf of the Park Board. Both current members and
our former members and also for our Park and Rec staff. You know the City Council has
given us the support we've asked for and the citizens as well so we feel fortunate that we
have been able to complete this project and hopefully we can continue to strive to improving
our park system, so thank you very much for the recognition and we're more determined than
ever to win it again. So thank you.
John Gerben: If Mark and I leave, will you still have a quorum?
Andrews: Thank you very much. That should be good for a year end bonus Todd, right?
VISITOR PRESENT A TIONS: None.
CARVER BEACH PARK. HEAR REQUESTS OF PAULA AND LOREN VEL TKAMP.
6774 LOTUS TRAIL.
Todd Hoffman gave the staff presentation on this item.
Loren Veltkamp: Well they did shorten up that parking.
Paula Veltkamp: Thank you for that.
Loren Veltkamp: I want to thank everyone for that. Last time we were here we had a list, I
don't know how many items were on it, maybe 12 but I've reduced it now to 4 and I've been
3
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
talking with people about it. You know people really didn't want to see the parking reduced
there, even though the residents that I talked to and the people in the city were quite adamant
about keeping that parking there. I don't really care about the parking. The issue that I came
out with originally was just the noise issue. You know we felt the noise had gotten to a point
where you know, it is better now. Although on Friday we had a real bad day and then on
Monday, yesterday it was bad. The weekend was fme. Saturday and Sunday people...no
problem but I can't figure it out. It makes no sense to me. There's been no fighting on the
raft at all, which the kids were doing every day at about 4:00 they'd corne down and fight on
the raft for 2 hours. That was very noisy but that hasn't happened one time since I've been
here before so it is better but there's still some problems. And then since you've shorten the
parking, there's been a couple instances of people parking where the sign used to be. I think
they're probably just going in and thinking there's still a sign there but there's not So I
called on that and one time there was 2 cars and they were completely outside of the signs
and I doubled checked because one time I called and the car wasn't all of the way outside of
the signs so they said, it doesn't count. So I thought okay, you know you can have this one
but this time they were clearly both out and when I called, nobody carne out and I called a
half hour later and I think I called 3 times. Now I think the second time I called, she said
somebody went down to look at it but they didn't see a problem. I said whoa. Two cars in
front...I told them it was a black Mitsubishi and a gray Buick or Chevy. So I don't know.
There's still a problem with parking but the parking's not an issue to me. It's only the noise
because that's what enters my residence you know so. I've only got 4 copies of this so I'll
give one to Todd and kind of spread these around up here. The noise problem, I guess
reducing the parking is not what the people in the city want but I was hoping we could install
a sign that said something like quiet zone, which was what somebody brought up last time.
That would be probably pretty much take care of the problem because then I feel like I can
go across street and say, you know can you please keep it down and I won't have to call the
city enforcement because they're pretty late in getting down there anyway. So if we could
have that, that would probably solve the noise problem I think and I would be willing to go
across the street and ask people to... I would also like to have a sigh that says no fighting on
the raft There's a lot of fighting that goes on in the spring anyway and I think that from the
city's point of view, it probably is dangerous because I've seen kids fall on the raft and when
they get pushed they don't always land in the water. And the main source of noise is in fact
daycare. On Friday we had 7 adults. Now wait a minute. Last Friday we had approximately
3 adults in the car and about 16 kids and the kids were all in the water at one point. At one
time and it was exceedingly noisy.
Berg: Excuse me, what time was that? Do you know, about what time of day that was?
Loren Veltkamp: Friday. Oh, I'd say early in the afternoon. There were people there from
about 10:00 to 7:00 on Friday. It was really a very busy day.
4
.
.
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Berg: Was it the same group do you think that was there yesterday? Around early afternoon.
I was down there about 1:00 or so and it looked more like families but I wasn't, I'm not able
to tell.
Loren Veltkamp: I can't really tell. I don't know. They come down with an ice chest in the
back of their van.
Paula Veltkamp: It's usually a woman with 4 children and they range in age but they're all
are between oh I would say about 4 and 8. So maybe conceivably they could have.
Loren Veltkamp: There was one teenager there and she was like 16. And I think there was...
I don't really know.
Berg: Okay, it looked more like families amongst that group yesterday.
Loren Veltkamp: It could be. Yeah, it could be. You know 3 big families coming in with
16 kids. I don't know. But that's the main source of noise right there. I mean I guess if
they're families, then no problem but if it is in fact daycare, you know then maybe we should
put a sign up that says no daycare because that's for sure noisy. And it's not a good place
for daycare for sure. But if an adult comes down there with 5 kids and you know, one's on
one side of the beach and one's on another, there could be an accident. So I don't know,
that's something to think about I guess. I'd like to have a sign saying no shouting,
screaming, or excess noise. I think that would spell out for people you know what they
shouldn't really do when they're that close to a residence. The other problems are kind of
obvious. We talked about those last time so I don't see any point of getting into those again,
except the illegal parking problem. I would like to see, you know the little posts that they
have in city parks? You know that line the road so people can't park. If you put those in
front of the beach, and it tends to be another problem with illegal parking. ...removab1e
because the guy that plows got to get through so you drop them in...and you pull them out in
the fall. This would cost you a couple hundred bucks. I'd never have a parking problem
again and neither would you. So I think that's a pretty good solution. The sign costs you,
you know $50.00 and I think that'd be the end of this problem.
Lash: Why do you think there wouldn't be a parking problem if we put posts going in the
beach?
Loren Veltkamp: Wouldn't be?
Lash: Yeah.
5
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Loren Veltkamp: Well if you bring them out into the road, see people have to pull off the
road to park where there's grass and it's all one smooth shoulder. So it's very easy for them
to park anywhere along and you have people you know stopping in front of the park.
Emptying their stuff out and then they slam their doors and then they go look for a parking
spot. Then they come back and they load their stuff up there so they use it for loading on
and off and that's a lot of noise because the kids are running around and you know, you got
this, you got that. That sort of thing. And other than that you just have people parking right
on the park and that's been happening all summer long. The fishermen do it. Everybody
does it And it happens in the winter too because...people coming down to ice fish or
something park there so. We probably can't have the posts in the winter because of the plow
but if you stick those posts in, I think that would really take care of it in the summer. I don't
really care about the winter because the windows are closed and it doesn't matter. It's pretty
inexpensive. I think that really takes care of it. If there's a sign out there that says..and I'm
bothered by noise, I can go down there and talk to them. And I will. I won't call the city
about it because I don't like calling the city...
Andrews: One of our later agenda items is our capital improvement budgeting for next year.
I don't see any reason why these items can't be discussed at that time. I'm only speaking for
myself here. I don't these are very, these are reasonable requests to me and don't appear to
be all that costly. Does anybody else have any comments to add to that? .
Lash: Since I was not here...and I didn't really feel comfortable commenting on it since I
hadn't been here for the full presentation but I read over the Minutes and I went down over
the weekend and drove by it so...and I happened to be there Saturday night and I was pretty
surprised because there wasn't a soul down there. It was beautiful on the lake there. I mean
it was in the evening right after dinner and it was beautiful and there wasn't a soul down
there. But there were a couple of things that I wanted to point out and one being, I think it's
already been addressed. That the parking has been tighten up because it was supposed to
only be 3 spots with 1 indicated as handicapped. So that would allow for basically 2 cars
most of the time, which is pretty minimal. And I was also curious, is there a typical park
rules sign down at that beach that we have at most of the rest of the beaches?
Loren Veltkamp: Yeah there is. No dogs. No this. No that.
Lash: Okay. Because we have a standard sign that we put in all the parks.
Loren Veltkamp: Yeah, it's the same sign that you've got over at the Greenwood Shores
Park.
Lash: Okay, so I'll go check on that. And then I just wanted to point out a couple of things
6
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
to you guys. One is that we still certainly consider this to be a neighborhood park. You
know you said you wanted it to be returned to a neighborhood park and it is a neighborhood
park and that's the designation that it will always remain. And I just want you to be
comfortable knowing that if you have problems with it, we're here to help you to solve
problems with your neighborhood park. We're not, we don't mean to be working against
each other. We should pull together when there's problems so I want you to feel comfortable
when you do have problems, to come because we are here to help you. And we want to help
to enforce the rules and I'm wondering did Public Safety start to doing more regular
patrolling Todd?
Hoffman: I contacted Scott Harr and again, as far as regular patrols, that's as available basis
as far as responding to the calls. Obviously there they get a deluge of park calls and parking
and Lake Ann on the grass and South Lotus Lake...so they are, they definitely have an
attitude about park complaints. Scott is working with the Carver County Deputy Department
in that regard. In fact they are looking to us to come back and try to make signage more
simplified and...
Lash: I know one of the ideas was just for a few weeks at least to really beef it up at say
10:30 or whatever to try and make sure to curtail any evening activity that was going on.
. Paula Veltkamp: ...we have a light outside our house too. Big spot light and we flash them
on. Any teenagers on the raft are gone in a minute. There's no privacy at all so.
Loren Veltkamp: ...we just hit the halogen...but I've honestly, I've never even heard it at
night.
Lash: The problem that we're going to have is that we cannot control people's behavior.
You know we just, there's nothing that we can do. We can post signs until we're blue in the
face and not control people's behavior.
Loren Veltkamp: I know. I don't really expect the city to do it and I don't really want the
city to do it. If the city puts up a sign, then I can go down there and ask them to be quiet
and I'm sure that will be enough. I don't think people like to disturb people in their
residence. I don't go over to their house and make a lot of noise. And I can't drive around...
my stereo loud at night. I don't bother them. They shouldn't bother me. And I think people
understand that.
Lash: Well then another thing is that some of your requests or some of the concerns for
some of the things, basically I'm the senior member on the commission now and was here
when we had residents from this area in requesting the buoys and the raft and different kinds
.
7
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
of things that went in down there so it's kind of hard now, just a few years later to have
people coming in and there's a lot of problems with it. You feel like geez, we just spent all
this money to try and make people down there happy and put in what they wanted and now
people aren't happy with what we did and you know and want to have it removed. It puts us
in a tough spot.
Loren Veltkamp: I realize that now. I didn't the first time but I began to feel that people
really liked the raft and even though they don't visit the property, they really want to have
the parking down there in case they want to.
Paula Veltkamp: I find it interesting though the people that requested those things moved
out.
Loren Veltkamp: They got the raft and they got the parking in and then he moved.
Lash: His property value probably increased. And then there were some other, there was one
reference to the agreement between your neighborhood association and, as far as mooring
boats and things like that and I'm interesting if you have a copy or if one of your neighbors
has a copy of that agreement that would help us to understand what the initial, or original
intention was.
.
Loren Veltkamp: I just heard that word of mouth. There are some older residents still
around, so I don't think that there is any paper.
Andrews: The Council went through this process reviewing moorings quite extensively. I'm
in another neighborhood on the lake that had some difficulties with that and that's an issue
I'm sure has been reviewed thoroughly over the last about 18 months. And if there was a
document, it would have had to been produced and word of mouth wasn't going to work.
Because there were so many conflicting statements about you know, somebody said 5 boats.
No, it was 10. No, it was 3 and it was neighborhood versus neighborhood. One
neighborhood said we want boats but we don't want their neighborhood to have boats and so
it got to be, well unless you can prove it with some sort of historical document, then word of
mouth wasn't going to work. So that would be an issue you would have to take up with \
Council if you really want to do it.
Lash: But if there is some kind of agreement, it would be, it would actually be beneficial just
to have it on the record for future. So if you can...
Loren Veltkamp: I'll ask around.
8
.
.
..-
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Manders: I have a question pertaining to a comment that was made about later evening
activity. And you indicated that. you didn't seem to think there was much problem like after
10:00 or after 9:00.
Loren Veltkamp: Not where we are. Not where we are but I'll tell you, on either side of this
I think there might be.
Manders: That's what I'm wondering. Do you recognize that or do you notice that at all?
Loren Veltkamp: No, I don't but people who, people to our left like the Gundersons, they're
right in front of the fishing dock and there's a lot of people that go down there at night to
fish. Now we have some night fishing in front of our beach there because I think people like
to go to walleye because it's sand in there. So there's some walleye fishing in front of our
place at night but it really hasn't bothered me so I have no objection to it. Now they are
bothered because of I don't know, I guess there's been people taking out canoes at night.
Banging the canoes...them up and the dock out there is aluminum so when people walk on it,
it makes noise and that can wake them up because their bedroom's right in front of the house.
So they've got some problems. And then the people at the south end have complained to us,
just when we were talking to them out walking the dog, about people in the woods drinking.
Because see there's no woods in front of our place. It's just a narrow strip. So there's no
place for them to hide so they're not going to drink there. Plus we have our halogens so I
don't think they're going to drink... But the people on the south end have complained to us
about it.
Lash: ...and when you said south end, are you talking about the south end of this beach or
the other beach?
Loren Veltkamp: The other beach, yeah. The south end of the park. The main beach.
Andrews: What I'd like to do is discuss your request as part of our capital improvement
discussion which is a major item for us later tonight because most of these issues would
relate to spending a little money for a sign or some posts or some minor improvements and
that's exactly what we're going to be talking about here probably in about an hour.
Loren Veltkamp: I could get my money back in one summer by not having those...! mean I
know they don't like that. I've talked to them. I know they don't like to be running out all
the time checking up on this stupid parking.
Paula Veltkamp: I had a question about the handicap parking. There was one time I called
and there were two people parked...but they didn't ticket it, or maybe they didn't get them...
9
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
they would fine one person and the car that stayed. And I called back and asked, well why
wasn't there a ticket issued and the response was that it doesn't really look like it's illegal.
And I don't know what makes a legal handicap and what doesn't but she said, a lot of the
times you just can't ticket people because it's not official. So I don't know if there's some
way to make that more official. So people don't abuse the handicap area.
Lash: How is the handicap parking designated?
Hoffman: With a sign. Did you call Carver County or the City?
Paula Veltkamp: I called the.
Hoffman: Dispatch?
Paula Veltkamp: Yeah the dispatch.
Hoffman: Again, each individual deputy will have a different opinion when they're writing
tickets. Whether or not it's justified or not so...there is that perception. If there is, what
problem them have with it...
Paula Veltkamp: There was one time in the handicap, a couple of teenagers down there once.
The teenagers were talking back to the police and they were saying, well why do you...so that
was it, they got a ticket.
.
Lash: ...just shooting their mouth off.
Paula Veltkamp: And I got the feeling that the police really don't want to ticket down there
because they don't want to create bad PRo I don't know. Maybe even a legal handicap
wouldn't give them...way to ticket anyway so I don't know if that would make any
difference.
Loren Veltkamp: That's the point you know. They don't want to come down there and get
on people's bad side when they're just sitting out at the beach.
Berg: I just had a couple things. One has to do with signs and I'll wait until maybe a more
appropriate time to talk about that. The other thing that concerns me a little bit is requests
for not allowing certain groups to use the beach.
Loren Veltkamp: Oh daycare?
10
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Berg: Yeah. I personally have a little bit of a problem with that.
Andrews: I do as well.
Berg: I don't think we can seriously think about closing the beach to certain groups of
people. That's my own opinion.
Andrews: I think we ask for proper behavior but we don't determine what group is allowed.
If they don't behave properly, then we deal with it but we can't decide what groups are
eligible. I agree with that. Thank you for your patience and we appreciate the chance to
work with you.
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL. PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 46.5
ACRES INTO 36 RURAL SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND ONE OUTLOT. HALLA'S
GREAT PLAINS GOLF EST A TES. LOCATED SOUTH OF COUNTY ROAD 14
(PIONEER TRAIL) AND WEST AND EAST OF HIGHWAY 101 (GREAT PLAINS
BLVD.).
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: Thank you Todd. Mr. Halla, if you'd like to speak to us about this issue, we'd be
happy to hear more from you.
Don Halla: I don't know that I have any pros or cons to it one way or the other. The
decision that you folks have to make with regard to it. One correction I will say that it is
approximately 56 acres on that side of the property. Not 25 to 30. We originally had the 35
lots located on the west half of our property, somewhat in configuration that you see...resulted
from having 2 1/2 acre lots. Being asked to make it down to roughly half acre lots and now
we're back to 2 1/4 acre lots. And we're back to using the whole property again. So the city
has been moving us around from one way to another way to another way, depending upon
who's planning. Excuse me, who the City Planner is at the time and the... As far as we have
an interest in it as a park, that's something that you folks have to make a decision on and
move accordingly. One way or the other. I know that part of the thing has been told to us in
the past why we've been jockeying back and forth and yes, there was a desire for a park on
this site. Yes, we really want to buy the nursery on the other side to expand the golf course.
Nobody wants to be up front. Basically just want to have us go back and forth trying to meet
different criteria from different individuals to prevent the development. And one way or the
other development's going to happen. This plan that we have today I think is horrible city
planning. I have a daughter who's a landscape architect out in Baltimore...and I can say that
the way we are right now with what to do on this third go around now doesn't serve the city
11
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
well as far as tax money goes. As far as concentration of homes and so forth. When you're
using as much land as what's being used. We're playing the city game. That's all I can tell
you. And as you can see what some of my feelings that I'm expressing here, that I'm...but
we're doing what we're asked to do and we'll continue to do so until it gets approved. I
don't think there's anything we can't improve on this one. We've gone full circle from
where we started and trying to meet them at every angle that they ask us to do and...
Andrews: Okay. Todd's recommendation is that the Park Board table this until August 9th
so we can have our last chance really to take a look at this property as a potential park site.
Knowing how short land is going to become, I guess I'm asking you if that would be a
suitable or would it fatally impair your project that we could table it to August 9th? I think
at that point, as a commission, we would be able to make some sort of decision. Are we
going to really pursue this or not Nothing's going to get built this fall I don't believe. Even
with the fastest processes of the city I don't think they can get things done that fast but do
you think we would be able to ask for your indulgence through August 9th?
Don Halla: We asked for delays and being forced to do what we're forced to do. It's the
city who's pushing us. Not us pushing the city. So I'm just not going to let the city figure a
method out that they can prevent me from putting lots on my property and having it
subdivided. The city's got to come to grips with what they're trying to do. We said that we .
wanted to let the land basically sit and not develop. We already have a 2 1/2 acre
preliminary plat approval on it. We're being forced to go back and forth on this other...so it's
the city who's in the, forcing us to do something. And I'm just going to do what I have to
do and make sure that I can put lots on there according to what was approved earlier.
Whatever that means, if you want to delay it and not rule it against me, I could care less.
But I'm not going to do anything that's going to jeopardize my getting the number of lots on
there so I can get value out of my property.
Andrews: I guess to ask a question. Are you saying that you have no interest in potentially
selling this at a fair market value as park property? That's kind of what I'm.
Don Halla: It depends upon what you call fair market value for park property.
Andrews: Well that would be your decision obviously. You're the current owner so you
decide what's fair.
Don Halla: We have a preliminary plat approval of this property for the same, I believe the
number of lots that are on it now. 2 1/2 acre lots and that's basically what this is in size. 2
1/2 acre lot development. Just a different configuration than what's already done.
12
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Manders: Just to reconfirm the east portion of this property is how large?
Don Halla: The area that you see with the lots on it is 46 acres. The area that you show as a
big section on the bottom right hand...
Lash: And the ones on the west side?
Don Halla: The west side is another 46 1!2 acres. Plus 2 1!2 acres that's already been
subdivided. It's just under 50 feet. It's 49. 8 or 9. Total.
Andrews: Does that plat show the proposed straightening of the highway? Is that what that
ghosted in line is there?
Don Halla: If it ever happens, yeah. This right through here is for the straightening of the
road. And that easement has been already granted. The trail easements have been granted.
The widening of 101 has been granted. The city has all those easements and so forth on the
understanding that we were doing the subdivision of the property. We've met all their
requirements.
Hoffman: Just to clarify, there is 46 1/2 acres on each side of the road there?
Don Halla: 46 1/2. My brother owns 10 acres on the south there that shows as future
development. It's not my property.
Lash: But you own 46.
Don Halla: I own 46.
Lash: So we can forget about the 10 because that's not your's.
Don Halla: That's not mine. If you needed more land, there's probably another 20 acres
available to the south. But our property was all graded for the nursery purpose so it was
made into a pretty level site. There's enough for drainage across it and...
Andrews: Well as usual the pressure of development is much quicker than our ability to deal
with it, it seems as a city and as a Park Board. As a Planning Commission. As a Council.
The pace of development is just always surprising to me. We're already reacting rather than
anticipating it seems. I feel as a Park Board that we should accept Todd's recommendation,
which is to table and look at this and make a decision. You know either we're going to
pursue this or we're not. I think it deserves discussion. There's going to be very few pieces
13
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
of property that are potentially suitable for an athletic complex in the southern area of the city
and I guess I feel it'd be irresponsible to not take a serious look at it. I make that as a
motion to the board here if somebody wants to second that.
Manders: I'll second that.
Andrews: Okay, we'll move that this issue is tabled and will be on the August 9th meeting
date.
Andrews moved, Manders seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table
action on the Halla's Great Plains Golf Estates land development proposal until the
August 9, 1994 special Park and Recreation Commission meeting, at which time this
item will be discussed. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL: ED AND MARY RYAN TO REZONE 37.92
ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED RR. RURAL RESIDENTIAL TO RSF.
RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY. PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 37.92
ACRES INTO 52 SINGLE F AMIL Y LOTS AND A WETLAND AL TERA TION
PERMIT LOCATED AT THE INTERSECTION OF GALPIN BOULEVARD AND
PROPOSED LAKE ROAD EXTENSION.. 6730 BOULEVARD. SHAMROCK RIDGE.
.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: I have one question and that would be, is there any potential north/south trail that
would connect somewhere internally in this big section of land that we should be looking at a
potential trail easement on that western edge of this property.
Hoffman: There will be a north trail heading off this extension into the Minnetonka
Intermediate School but that's farther on down the line. As far as south, you run directly into
some wetlands. Some years ago there was an extension of the trail. The trail system up
along the interceptor, the Lake Ann Interceptor which is very close to the south of this plat
but that has since been removed and it's been...instead of going cross country, that will
come...and Lake Lucy.
Andrews: The property directly to the west of this has not yet come in, is that correct?
Hoffman: No.
Andrews: It makes me nervous not to consider, even though we have no plan at this point to
14
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
have any trail there, to not have a potential easement on that. On the western border that
could coordinate with the development on the Highway 41 end that might provide us some
connection. I mean it seems like whenever we say we don't need it, then we come back later
and geez, then we wish we had taken something or thought about something.
Lash: Are you talking about on the western edge?
Andrews: The western edge of this development.
Lash: Running north and south?
Andrews: Yep. Is there any potential value to any connection.
Roeser: It doesn't reach TH 41 there then, right?
Andrews: No, no. But I'm saying there's another big chunk of land that will come in some
day over there and would there be any value to having a north/south connection trail. Would
it connect up to any other east/west trail that would be of value to the south of this or to the
north of this. Because you're talking a huge.
Lash: There's going to be a trail on Galpin and there's ultimately going to be one on TH 41.
You're saying just something somewhere inbetween those two.
Andrews: I mean how wide is this? Is that like a half a mile? A mile? It looks huge on the
map.
Hoffman: I didn't notice that anything...but it's difficult.
Andrews: I retract my question. It's only about 1,000 feet from the middle to the edge. So
that's not really a hinderance to ask somebody to walk 1,000 feet to a trail. So I don't think
that's necessary. Never mind. It just looked a lot bigger than that on the map. Any other
discussion? If not, a motion.
Manders: I'd move that we accept the staff recommendation and approve this proposal.
Andrews: Is there a second?
Roeser: I second.
Manders moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend
15
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
that the City Council require the following conditions of approval in regard to park and
trails for the Shamrock Ridge plat:
1. Full park fees be collected per city ordinance.
2. An 8 foot bituminous trail be constructed parallel to Lake Lucy Road. This construction
to be incorporated into the Lake Lucy Road Extension Project. The developer shall be
reimbursed for the cost of said trail from the city's trail fund.
3. Sufficient county road right-of-way/easements be maintained along County Road 117
(Galpin Boulevard) to accommodate possible future trail construction.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Andrews: Item 5 is the CIP work session. Now the work starts.
Hoffman: If the Commission would like to entertain completing the rest of the agenda.
Andrews: Yes, let's do that and then come back and kill this one at the end.
.
PROGRAM REPORTS:
A. 1994 4TH OF JVL Y CELEBRATION EV ALVA TION.
Ruegemer: Would it be helpful for the commission for us to go through each event or do
you want, I take it everybody's had a chance to take a look at the evaluation of the 4th of
July celebration. Is there anything that isn't covered in the evaluation itself that the
commission members would like to touch on?
Andrews: Yes. I guess I was just curious why you felt you'd like to change from the Hi-
Tops, being that people seem to like them so much.
Lash: That's what I had on mine too.
Ruegemer: I think what we're trying to do is I guess with our department we're always
trying to move on. We're always trying to create a new look or create maybe a new
experience for the celebration. The Hi-Tops have been playing around here for 7 or 8 years.
We felt that it's time for a change. To give this celebration, we just celebrated our 10th
anniversary. Maybe now it's time to look for something else.
16
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Andrews: If it ain't broke, why fix it.
Lemme: Well there's a lot of great bands out there though.
Lash: Yeah, well I think the White Sidewalls are great but it's not like it's going to be a
drastic change...type of music and I know the White Sidewalls are expensive and I think they
get booked up pretty far in advance too.
Andrews: Yeah, I guess I had the same question. It seems like we're just looking at
basically the same style music. Why change the name of the band if the music's going to be
basically the same. If we're going to make a change, I guess it would make more sense to
me to look to a different style of music and I guess I feel that I would not recommend a
change of style. I think what they play is easy entertaining type of music. A lot of people
can dance to it and have fun with it and it doesn't get too rowdy or too crazy so.
Lash: And you have a different style of music...! guess I'd be willing to look at some
different alternatives. If you want to show us some different prices and stuff. I think for the
price...
Andrews: We'll look at it.
Lash: I have a question on the water wars. I know that was really popular and when I was
in line and watching, I heard somebody say well we could just, why couldn't we just build
one of those. That wouldn't be hard to build one of those so is that a possibility that we
could just, the maintenance guys over the winter build a couple of those things.
Ruegemer: Yeah, we took pictures of the water wars.
Lash: From all angles.
Ruegemer: And we even had a citizen say he would draft something up on his CAD system
so that's being looked at for a winter project.
Lash: That was real popular. I thought that was great. And then I had one other question.
A comment that I had directed toward me was the sand sculpture...and someone suggested to
me that we either come up with more effective age brackets or have like just a kids one and a
family one or something so that it's not as, you know we have like I can't remember. It was
somebody who was in it and he said, gee I feel guilty because...
Lemme: I heard that too and people had...more competitive category versus a family
17
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
category and then also to really separate off the areas so that people aren't stepping on each
other's sand sculptures and I think that would be easily done. Just with that...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
B. SEPTEMBERFEST PREVIEW.
Lemme: We could block off areas so people could...It might be difficult but we still
thought...We're looking at maybe getting some more civic organizations like the 4H or
something to operating them. Whatever the Lions Club does not sell. If they want two
booths...
Roeser: When is it going to be?
Lemme: September 24th.
Lash: That'd be kind of fun. If people brought their pumpkins.
Andrews: Will the new store be open by then? Is that what they're targeting?
Ruegemer: Byerly's?
.
Andrews: A year from then? Is that what they're shooting for.
Hoffman: They want to be open for Thanksgiving but it's more realistic before Christmas.
Berg: What are you thinking of doing with the teen dance? I mean besides the obvious.
Having a dance for teens.
Hoffman: They didn't warm up to this idea very well but the nighttime activities just slow
me down so we said if we needed a daytime when people would come out in the morning,
you know 9:00. Bake sale. Farmers market and everything and wind this thing down about
4:00. We've got tents and tables and all this investment out there. I said if we bring in an
$800.00 band or could use some of this local stuff and what's the number one thing teenagers
want to do is hang out. It's also an age group which we miss in our city. My staff, my other
staff partners they just don't know if that will do it. So we want to hear from you. Will that
do it? If we just have a tent there and we have nobody else there but teenagers and we just
throw this rock band up in the center of the city for 3 hours during the evening, will they
show up?
18
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Berg: Add one other element and you've got a better chance. Lots of food.
Hoffman: Pizzas. We talked about that.
Lash: Prizes.
Andrews: Pizzas would do it.
Lash: I mean almost like your teen dance that you have at the middle school, only it would
be outside and any age but.
Andrews: I think that'd be a cool idea. I think kids would really like that.
Berg: My first thought was to agree with Jerry and Dawn and say, oh. But we've been
talking since I've been on the board about we don't do anything for teenagers and I think we
could, I think we've got to try.
Lash: And it might be scary.
Manders: Where does this happen? Up here at the city center.
Hoffman: Right here.
Andrews: I think we need to do something like you give every kid like a coupon for 2 slices
of pizza and he gets into the dance.
Lash: You wouldn't even have to have a band. What if we just did a DJ thing again? That
seems to be very popular.
Berg: Do a DJ with some lights.
Lash: It wasn't somebody who was just totally obnoxious and you could still have some
adults there.
Andrews: I think we ought to really target the teens here. I think that's a good idea. I think
a DJ may be better than a band because if you haven't go the right kind of band, you've got
a bad deal.
Hoffman: We thought about that. We'd go talk to the Youth Commission. If there's
somebody hot out there... Let them pick their own band. We're not the ones to pick it.
19
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Ruegemer: We could just contact a new DJ services this morning so.
Manders: I understand that they've got a new guy at KDWB.
Hoffman: Yeah.
Lash: Well we probably don't want him.
Andrews: Alright.
Hoffman: Anything else?
Berg: In anticipation of one of these things, make sure Minnetonka finds out about it too.
The teen dance.
Andrews: I was going to get to that later.
c. MID-SUMMER REPORTS.
Ruegemer: This is just really an FYI. Just bringing to the commission's attention how we're .
doing with parking revenues. As of, just for conversation sake, I just threw in the totals at
the end of June this year versus the end of June last year. That's where we're sitting. The
July report should be corning in roughly in a week I suppose but here's where we were at as
far as the end of June so we are far ahead as to what we were last year. I believe that's
directly related to the nice weather that we've been having. We've had a couple crappy
summers and, two years in a row and everybody's just pleased as punch that we have decent
weather and they're coming out and using our parks so.
Manders: This isn't year to date, it's just the month of June?
Ruegemer: No. Just from early May to end of June so.
Lash: And that used to be what it was for the whole year.
Ruegemer: Right, and as we wrap up the summer we'11 have a final report on revenues that
will reflect..
Lash: Hopefully we can have a discussion at that time about this procedure.
Andrews: Pardon me? Dh, about the gates?
20
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Lash: Yeah. When he does the year end thing.
Ruegemer: Just another topic of discussion too is with the picnic evaluations coming back,
the groups that have been using the park, probably 9 out of 10 have been coming back that
we do pay fees to facility and felt that the parking fee was over...on our part.
Hoffman: Gouging.
Ruegemer: ...some of those picnic evaluations were enclosed in the Admin Section but more
come in every day so we'll tally those at the end of the season and take a look at those.
Andrews: Alright.
Ruegemer: Item number 2 is, this is mine as well. It's just another FYI for you. Picnic has
also been overwhelming this summer. We've been going through a lot of picnic
conversations on a daily basis. As of today, I probably as of today, I've probably had over
80 since I've written the report so they just keep coming in. Again, this is at the end of June
of this year in comparisons to last year. This year is $3,749.13 as compared to last year at
$1,900.00 so we're way ahead. Projections as of last year and we should have no trouble
reaching the goal of $5,000.00 for picnic revenues.
Lash: So if we take parking and the picnic shelters, can we raise that money to buy the Halla
property?
Ruegemer: That might be difficult.
Hoffman: An acre.
Ruegemer: So just a FYI for you and I just included, just to bring you up to date...
Andrews: Alright, let's move ahead. Let's quickly get through the, do you need to talk
about the concession stand revenue? That's up too so. Item 7, special meeting date August
9th. Let's move on to item b. Second quarter park and trail revenue report.
Hoffman: We need to catch with Dawn on the Lake Ann concession.
Andrews: Well it's all there. I mean pardon me but if we're going to get through the CIP
we're going to be here until midnight. If that's okay. I read through these and they're pretty
self explanatory.
21
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Lash: But I have a question on August 9th one just in regard to the selection of vendor for
the play equipment. I noticed that the vendors, that the substitutions were sent to and it
seems to me in my recollection, one of the vendors on that list we've had a little difficulty
with in the past. I was just wondering if there's some more reason why we need to continue
to send out to that vendor or should we try someone else?
Hoffman: We could expand that list. The vendors which are on the list are really in order
local vendors. The person who we've done a lot of business with and then a person who
we've done some business with who's... If that's your criteria, if you want to eliminate that
one due to past experience, that's at your discretion. If you want to direct me not to send this
to the vendor, you could certainly do that.
Lash: Well I'm just speaking for myself but if I've had a bad experience with someone in
the past, I probably would not go and order from them again. I think it's sort of a waste of
our time and a waste of the vendor's time and we might want to go find a different vendor if
we want to send out 3 bids. Find somebody that we think would be more satisfactory. Is
there anyone who.
Andrews: Well I think that's great. I mean why, we have had a problem and I forget which
one it is but I wouldn't want to do business with him. I mean just why bother. We've had a .
very unsatisfactory experience with a lot of finger pointing back and forth and I just don't
think we need to deal with that.
Lash: And I think we were very clear originally when we placed our order that if it did not
work out, that this was, this would be his shot and if you blow it, you blow it. And he blew
it and I meant it when I said that so if you have any questions about it...
Hoffman: We'd like to start the review...but I can let that person know.
Berg: Jan, what park was that again?
Lash: That we had the problems?
Berg: Where we had the problem?
Lash: Was it at Herman Field?
Hoffman: Carver Beach, Herman Field.
Andrews: Okay, let's move on to, let's delete him from our considerations. I don't think we
22
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
need a headache.
B. SECOND QUARTER PARK AND TRAIL REVENUE REPORT.
Andrews: It's great to see those kinds of numbers.
Hoffman: To be honest...obviously are driving that are Byerly's, the apartments and multi
units you see going up over here. The industrial you see going up over in the...and a healthy
amount of residential single family as well so it's a combination of factors that has led to this
revenue increase. But again, it's all good news but it's going to go away fast.
C. CONSIDER CHANGING 4TH OF JULY CELEBRATION TO A SUMMER
FESTIV AL.
Braun: Alright, this is pretty self explanatory, if you read it. We're considering changing our
annual 4th of July celebration to a summer festival and more than likely prior to the 4th of
July. We just need to know your comments.
. Andrews: Why?
Hoffman: It's a combination of factors. The attendance is flat and the population continues
to increase. We have, fIrst of let me preface my comments by saying we have no problems
continuing with the tradition. We just want to explore giving the community the most bang
for it's buck and a lot of people are out of town. They have plenty to do on the 4th of July.
They don't need another activity scheduled on their 4th of July weekend. However, we also
recognize that a lot of people consider this their 4th of July weekend and their tradition so if
you move it away, you're going to taking away their tradition. But they also have the
opportunity to join in with the summer festival. So that is the sole reason behind it. There's
no hidden motives. It's just a consideration. We spend $25,000.00 on our festival. Should it
be on a weekend when we think we can deliver to most of the residents. The picnic didn't
have any more people than any other year and I'm just anticipating that we should have more
people. We had a 3 day weekend this year when people leave town. On a 3 day weekend
next year. The 4th is on Tuesday so many people will take advantage of that 4 day weekend.
They'd like to be in town but they're going to be up north or visiting relatives or doing other
things so that's the only consideration.
Lash: I guess what I, my original thought too was why I like it, I like it the way it is.
Although I can see in the last couple years it's been convenient because it's been falling on
Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. It's always working around the weekend but next year
.
23
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
it's going to be Tuesday. The next year it's going to be Wednesday and then how are we
going to do these 3 days worth of things when the 4th is on a Wednesday or something. It's
going to screw everything up big time. So I guess what I would be willing to look at, if it
falls on a weekend, keep it the way you've been doing it. If it falls mid-week, maybe have
it be the weekend before or the weekend after. Just because I think you'd have a higher
attendance rate. I don't even know how you'd do it. I don't know how you did it in the
past when it was in the middle of the week. How did you do it?
Hoffman: Just split it off.
Lash: Did stuff on the weekend and then just had some stuff the 4th of July.
Hoffman: The tradition has always been that the fIreworks have always been on the night of
the 4th, no matter when it hits. Many times the family games were that same day. Just the
thought process related to being a day off and then the weekend activities still went on.
Lash: So you had like the fishing contest and the dance and all that on the weekend.
Hoffman: Yeah. On the weekend, on a Saturday night or Friday. Just food for thought. We
think we have a very strong tradition going for 10 years but always changing towards the .
most bang for the buck.
Andrews: I think we have a long line of people here, if we try to change it, and certainly
have not had a line of people here asking us to change it.
Lash: Well I look at people who have a family, or not a family but have a tradition of doing
something away, still have that tradition. And if we take away the 4th tradition that's been
built here, I mean there are some people who have now made that their tradition. If we take
that away, then they have nothing to do and then they've got to start looking for something.
Berg: I'd like to see us extend our energies towards increasing the numbers of people. Look
at it from that angle instead of changing it. Look at ways to get more people here. What
those are I don't know without doing some thinking about it but.
Lash: I think there's a very healthy turnout considering the fact that it's a holiday weekend
and a lot of people are, or a holiday and a lot of people do leave. I think we have a very
good turnout. I don't know that I would want to see 15,000 people. I mean that's pretty...
Andrews: Well we've got new facilities coming into the city too. We have the new school
property. Maybe as that becomes ready, that becomes part of the festival. Maybe there's a
24
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
soccer tournament or another ball tournament out there for a different age group or whatever
so I think we'll be able to expand what the city offers as we have more facilities to offer.
Berg: And I think it was the case with us too. It takes people a while once they move into a
community to get used to the kinds of things that are traditional in the community and if we
start jockeying the times around, all of a sudden that tradition is gone. Maybe we should just
give these new people some opportunity and time to get into the community. Get settled
down and oh, this is what we do in Chanhassen on the 4th of July.
Lash: Well and if you don't know anybody in town, to go to something like that isn't really
very fun. So your first couple years maybe people don't take advantage of something like
that but as you get to meet more people through different activities, and you hear more about
it...
Manders: Personally I don't have a problem with this idea of trying to establish this summer
festival idea. I wouldn't mind that. Then I could take advantage of some other 4th of July
activities someplace else. I don't necessarily want to pass on this but then that would open
the ballgames up. I can see the pros of doing a summer festival and for people to get
together and mingle, certainly they have that option this other week. It doesn't have to be
that 4th of July week. My views.
Hoffman: The only reason that that came to mind. My neighborhood was virtually empty on
the 4th of July weekend. There was nobody home. And then you have 6 or 7 other
competing events going on in neighboring communities so, only so many people can show
up. So for that sole reason, I fully support the tradition and all this sorts of things but in 1996
the city will celebrate it's lOOth birthday celebration as well so then you'll be forced to
consider if you want to play that on the 4th of July weekend or the park commission will
most likely be charged as the organizing group for that centennial celebration. Whether
you'd like to do it on a separate weekend.
Andrews: I think it makes more sense to look about building on either side of this rather
than changing the core program that we now have because tradition is important I know for
the kids especially, whenever you make changes, kids seem to be really sensitive to those
things and they don't want to see, they don't want to see anything taken away. As the city,
and I guess I was thinking here as you were talking, what are some things we could do to
create more attention. Maybe we have a Tour de Chanhassen the weekend before. You
know a bike trip around the city to every park or park scavenger hunt or something like that.
Just to create some activity the weekend before or the weekend after. If it falls in the middle
of the week. Something like that. We could talk about it more but I guess I'm reluctant to
say let's scrap the 4th of July and look at something else. I think we should leave that alone
25
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
and build around it. That's my opinion. Are you looking for formal direction here?
Lash: If there's a centennial celebration, I think that's just one more party we'll have.
D. APPOINTMENT TO DISTRICT 112 COMMUNITY EDUCATION ADVISORY
BOARD.
Braun: Basically...Community Education Board is looking for someone...position and is there
anyone willing to apply for that position?
Andrews: Is there anybody that would like to have the job?
Lash: Didn't Dave say something about it.
Andrews: I notice in your note here that you say that if one of us does not volunteer, that
you're asking us to find somebody. That in itself would be a project I think. There is no one
here that's interested in doing this?
Hoffman: Councilmember Mark Senn sits on the Minnetonka Advisory Board.
Berg: So?
.
Hoffman: It's just that it's not unusual that the community education look for other city
officials to come down and get involved because we work so closely together that they would
like representation and direction from local units of government.
Lash: He's on the 112?
Andrews: 276.
Berg: Who was on this before?
Hoffman: There has not been an official Chanhassen representative and they're actually
adding this position.
Lash: What about some of the strong candidates that we've had applying for a commission
member appointment?
Megers: Like Chris Sones?
26
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Andrews: He's in District 276, isn't he?
Berg: No, 112.
Andrews: He's in 112? He'd be a good one actually.
Hoffman: He's in this district and he works in the Hutch district.
Andrews: An interesting perspective. A lot of knowledge.
Berg: And his wife teaches in this district.
Megers: Okay, I nominate Chris.
Andrews: Well being that we have no volunteer tonight, and I'm certainly not willing to
volunteer Dave Huffman without his being here, as much as we'd like to. I think Chris
Sones would be a good one to contact to see if he might be interested. If that is
unsuccessful, I would say then we need to put something in the paper that somebody with an
interest in park and rec activities that would be interested in serving, please contact you Todd.
And try to move ahead on this. This is an opportunity for us to have more input in
coordinating programs and developing programs and we should try to take advantage of it.
Berg: And if we go through all that and we don't have anybody, let us know so we can talk
about it again. Maybe somebody will change their mind.
Ruegemer: I have one more real brief Administration Presentation. We're talking teen
dances again here. We're still planning on doing some this winter. We had some, we did
two this year. October 28th and January 13th. The October 28th is going to be for 6th grade
only and then what we're going to do is do the 7th and 8th graders together on the January
13th date. In meeting with the different agencies that are sponsoring the programs, I guess
we're having a little bit of a logistics problem as to how to check people at the door. I know
you guys wanted to do different age groups. That type of thing. I guess what I'm looking
for is maybe some direction or some comments maybe as to how that might be successful as
far as.
Andrews: Kids don't have school ill's do they?
Ruegemer: ...and we talked about different things and possibly selling tickets through lunches
like a couple days before. I know that kids are going to lose them by the time they get there.
We'll maybe do like a registration form that they would turn in that night from a parent or a
27
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
guardian. I guess that's basically what we're looking for. Is some direction. Possibly some
ideas that you may have. How to stop some of those problems, solutions which we really
haven't had in the past. Just as far as age separation, that type of thing. I know it's easy for
the middle schools. They hold parties right after school to do that but when we're in a
different situation and that.
Lash: What if you have a sign-up or some type of registration.
Ruegemer: Like a checklist at the door?
Lash: Right. Then you have a checklist and you just come.
Ruegemer: We had talked about that in October and it really isn't a problem but once you
get into December and it gets a little bit colder, we do have quite a bit of a line at the front
door and we're just looking at things as far as speeding up the process when it comes to that
point. We had talked about that...and we had talked about maybe do a selling tickets during
the lunches and then creating a list at that point and just cross reference it. Would that speed
up the process? That's what we're trying to look through is some situations or scenarios that
would ultimately separate those two as we try to plan things from the standpoint where we
would have possibly might not have girls or boys basketball game at home that night where .
we would have maybe some of the older kids coming over and trying to crash. We've
always, we're trying to take a look at different things and plan these accordingly so if there's
any suggestions out there, we'd welcome those.
Berg: Is there any way you could have representatives from the two schools, like they used
to run the old elections way back 100 years ago and identify the kids?
Ruegemer: As far as having a teacher?
Berg: Teachers or deans.
Ruegemer: We had talked about that, you know how possible is that to get a teacher on a
Friday night to come out.
Berg: Well if you offered to pay them something. They wouldn't do it for free.
Ruegemer: Well that's one of my problems too. If we have an unlimited budget here, I have
no problem, we can pull this ahead. But we have to look at things financially as well and we
haven't really made a ton of money on these but we haven't gone in the hole.
28
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Manders: So you really think that 7th and 8th graders are going to want to go to a 6th grade
thing? It's like, it seems to me that they wouldn't even want to, but I don't know.
Andrews: I think that the ticket idea probably would handle about 99% of the problem and it
doesn't matter what you do, if somebody's determined enough, they'll find a way to get
around it. I mean you could use parents, permission forms but they could sign those
themselves. Tickets, they could give them to their buddies or take them from their enemies
or whatever but you could just deal with those people on an individual basis and hope that we
catch most people. I think that's the best way to do it. Maybe have different colors so that
each party so that the kids don't keep them or exchange or try to swap them or whatever.
Berg: And I'm sure you will have thought of it too but remember the 6th graders are all over
the place now.
Ruegemer: Yeah, we talked about and what we're going to do is going to do a little
campaign...! guess going out to the Chanhassen site. Going out to Jonathan and the middle
school.
Andrews: Minnetonka.
Ruegemer: Minnetonka. There was talk about this is maybe an opportunity for all those
students to get together with their peers. That they might be in separate locations but this is
way for them to get together.
Andrews: A rumble. Turf war.
Hoffman: Have we considered holding these at Minnetonka? Or do they do their own?
Andrews: They do have their own. It's paid for by the school district, not by the park and
rec department. The school pays for it. Okay, okay.
Ruegemer: Are there any comments regarding...Thank you for your time.
Berg: Thank you for breaking them up.
Lash: Yes, I appreciate that too.
1995 PARK ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT
PROGRAM (CIP) WORK SESSION.
29
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Andrews: Let's move back to item 5 and hit the Capital Improvement Program here. I
noticed that Todd you made a note here that I was going to expedite this, lead us through the
brainstorming. I didn't bring my calculator tonight so I'm not able to keep a running tally of
where we're going here with that so do either you or Jerry have a calculator. Okay, good.
Last year I know we had used the target figure of $150,000.00 as a reasonable CIP dollar
figure and it appears as though that's probably a little conservative. Would you agree?
Hoffman: It depends on how much you want to bank roll for these land acquisitions or do
you want to spend.
Andrews: I think well, we're going to have different opinions on that but why don't we just
go through it and we'll wish list it first and then see where we stand. That's usually what
we've done in the past. Sometimes we've come in with our wish list at a reasonable number
and then we can just go with it. Let's start out with Bandimere, which appears to be just
continue as is. Just as a point of interest. There is a group that's potentially going to
approach the city about joint funding of some grading improvements at Bandimere to make it
suitable for ballfields or soccer fields in particular. At this point it's strictly just a concept or
an idea and we'll see where that leads but it may be an opportunity for the city to get the
park partially improved or completely improved at no cost to the city. And I'll talk to Todd
more about that later but there is a group of people that's thinking about trying to do that. .
...you can still cut ballfields out of it. We've been wanting to get it graded for years anyway
and it may give us a way to get it done. I have no idea where this could lead but I think it's
something that let's take a look at. See where it goes.
Hoffman: Another parent talked to me. Had no idea that you were on the same track so it's
being discussed.
Andrews: Chuck Reinstra?
Hoffman: No.
Andrews: Oh okay.
Hoffman: They were looking at some land in St Bonifacius.
Andrews: Yes, that's the same. I've heard about that one too but that's about 20 miles
outside of town and that's not going to cut it. People aren't going to drive 20 miles for
soccer practice.
Hoffman: ...endowed with some money.
30
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Andrews: Well the league has some money and they have the proven ability to raise some
money in the last couple years. We've collected some large sums of money for programs so
I don't know where it could lead. I don't know how much it could cost. But the league is
even talking to Minnetonka School District about helping them improve Minnetonka Middle
School West to put in more fields there so they're exploring any options because to be quite
honest, the soccer program is at a breaking point as far as fields go. Field space goes. It's a
matter of do they cut the program or look for some communities to cooperate so something
that may come down the line.
Lash: And I'm assuming Todd if there's anything that's been requested through your office...
Hoffman: It's all hearsay right now.
Andrews: Bandimere Heights Park. Is anybody aware of any requested improvements for
that park? None. Let's move on. Bluff Creek requires nothing at this point. I'm trying to
refresh my memory. Was there an access road or a parking space discussion in the past years
about this one?
Manders: How does this tie with that rail? That Bluff Creek rail thing or is that just not
even connected.
Hoffman: Not connected but now there's a connection made with that Riley-Purgatory
watershed acquisition. They purchased a chunk of land there.
Lash: And I'm assuming they just did that to just preserve it.
Hoffman: That's what they're indicating.
Andrews: Okay, Carver Beach Park.
Lash: Is the south one or the north one?
Manders: This is the beach.
Hoffman: This is the linear park. The beach. Both beaches.
Andrews: Condition of the rafts and docks and so forth, anything we have to look at there?
Hoffman: No. The condition of all the equipment there is in good repair. The play
equipment is new at the south beach location. The buoys...bench. The benches which will
31
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
need to be replaced or repaired at the south location.
Andrews: Okay we had a request tonight for some potential signage, a couple litter baskets, a
no picking flowers sign which I don't know. You could put up enough of those, you won't
be able to see the flowers. Also this idea Todd, I don't know how you felt about this idea of
removable posts to block people temporarily using the grass and beach area as an unloading
zone. Do you feel that's practical or advisable?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: Can you explain why?
Hoffman: Removable posts are logistically difficult. They're not, it's not a $500.00 item. It
would be more complicated to engineer and would prove to be both...
Andrews: It may be nice trophies for the kids too.
Hoffman: Placing obstructions anywhere, not just on the shoulder of the roadway but in the
interior of the roadway. In places where liability is an issue. We cannot maintain a city
roadway and then place an obstruction within it. So I would think our engineers and our .
public safety people would have some great concerns with that. In short, for the advantages,
which you're hoping to obtain. The...which you'd be creating in my opinion, would far
outweigh that.
Lash: Do you have any projects over the different options? Something that would do the
same thing.
Hoffman: To place park bollards and a chain in this park system have not traditionally been
maintained. I've seen in other park systems where park bollards line every park road in some
of their community parks. Chaska, or excuse me. Shakopee' s park there and the oaks just to
the north of town had bollards. And/or boulders. Now boulders could be placed at this
specific location to hinder the ice fisherpeople from driving on and off the lake in that
location. That's been done but as far as eliminating, pulling out parking and short of putting
an obstruction out in the roadway, you're not going to eliminate that. So even if you put
bollards on the roadway line, people can still pull over to it
Andrews: How about a couple of litter baskets and some sort of signage that this is a
residential, I mean that is a tight area down there and also with water, there's a lot of sound
reflection and is there someway we could at least put one sign in the area to keep it down.
32
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Manders: Some kind of a noise.
Berg: I'm really arguing with myself with that one. I have a real problem with telling kids
on a beach that they have to be quiet.
Lash: I do too.
Manders: And 1 :00 in the afternoon.
Berg: And how are you going to enforce it.
Andrews: Well maybe it doesn't have to say be quiet but it might say you know, be sensitive
to the residents or something like that.
Lash: I mean kids will read that sign on the way in and it will be in their head for about a
tenth of a second and when they get out on the dock and in the water, it will be gone.
Manders: But all he's asking is for the sign so he can go down there. That's all he's asking
for.
Lash: ...get his house egged and every other thing if he's down there too much allover the
kids. You know I mean, it's a beach. It's a public beach. Kids go there. It's noisy. I mean
I just don't, I mean I feel sorry for him, I do but I don't know how we can control people's
behavior on a public beach. They're not doing anything that's illegal and this is like the no
smoking in the parks. We're going to say no screaming in the park? Pretty soon we're going
to have a sign that says, no fun allowed. I mean I just don't know how we can do it. I do
not know how to solve this.
Berg: I don't think a sign would do it anyway. It's just like the speed limit. We all know
what the speed limit is but well, I can only speak for myself. But Jan's right, it's going to go
in one ear and out the other. They're going to be out there playing on the raft, oh I wasn't
supposed to say that. That's not going to happen.
Hoffman: We do have somewhat of a similar sign along the trails at Rice Marsh where it
says trail abuts private property. Please respect.
Roeser: Yeah, that's really a good, that's a good sign.
Hoffman: We have a neighborhood park, or neighborhood beach, please respect the adjoining
properties. Something to that nature.
33
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Lash: Something like that. That's good enough. I don't look at it at all as being a cure for
the problem. I don't.
Andrews: No. It just gives us a little teeth if we have a problem that just has to get solved.
And I don't think it's to that point.
Hoffman: In speaking with Loren, before I talked with him he just was not willing to go and
talk to the youth that were there about their conduct. And I said, I do that all the time and I
do it more often than not. Testing my authority not as a park director but as an adult figure.
So I'll do that when I'm in the parks and 9 times out of 10 they'll respect the adult figure in
asking them to turn down their music or pick up their glass or pick up that bottle that you
just threw down. So I think you'll find that successful. He still, as you heard tonight, feels
uncomfortable that without some kind of signage backing him up, that he feels uncomfortable
with that. If we put something to the effect, if you have any wording or if I can come up
with some proposed wording for you, we can do that. Place it in that location. You could
have given direction to the teenagers on the grass and that's...and he obviously is not want to
be placed in that position but he's purchased a home which is in that position, thus he has put
himself into that position...
Berg: He's really looking for more trouble than he knows. I commented to my wife too this .
weekend when we were down there. What person in their right mind is going to start going
down and hassling these kids?
Roeser: I think the daycare thing is a little bit of a stretch too. When we start telling what
kind of people can come down there.
Lash: That was why I asked the question, does this park have the sign that all the other parks
have about littering and dogs and parking on the grass or whatever. Because that's basically
the rules that we worked on for a long time to come up with some consistent rules that we
thought needed to be enforced for everybody's benefit in all the parks. And granted different
parks have exceptions but the problem is this person's home is so close.
Andrews: And we can't change that.
Lash: We cannot change that.
Berg: And one of the times, I went down there a lot in the last 3 or 4 days. Half a dozen
times and one of the times, right next to the sign, I don't know why they didn't tie up the
dog right on the sign. They don't look at the sign. And if they do, rules, again I'm only
speaking for myself, are for everybody else. There were numbers of cars that were half over
34
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
the line in terms of where they were supposed to be. They were in the handicap spot. Signs
just aren't going to do it.
Lash: Well I did read a lot of the residents commenting about how they pick up litter while
they're walking their dog.
Berg: Where they're not supposed to be.
Lash: Right. And they're all saying, well we police that. I mean we police that. We're
down there walking our dogs and we pick up the litter.
Andrews: Let's do the litter baskets. Can we do that one?
Lash: Actually I noticed one comment in the last thing that somebody requested and I said,
oh that wasn't. It was the other one. Not the mini one. The other one. The south one.
That was where...
Andrews: How much do those little mesh litter baskets kind of like what they have on golf
courses or whatever. You could move them where you need them to be or whatever. Is it a
few hundred bucks a piece or something?
Hoffman: If you want just a standard park barrel there, I can get them in.
Andrews: About $100.00 a piece or so?
Hoffman: We don't even need to put money in for the park barrel.
Andrews: Alright, let's move on.
Berg: Oh, I have a question about Carver Beach, the south one. I made a note that, do they
have pea gravel in the play area?
Hoffman: Not as of yet, unless. Not when I left last Tuesday.
Berg: Okay, is that budgeted already?
Hoffman: Oh yes.
Lash: But could we move the benches? You said the benches are in need of repair. Could
we move that to '95 instead of '96?
35
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Hoffman: Yep.
Andrews: Let's do that. Okay, Carver Beach Playground.
Lash: So wait a minute. What kind of a decision are we going to get back to Loren on?
Hoffman: Signage.
Andrews: Let's do the respect the neighbors.
Roeser: See what you can come up with Todd that would...
Berg: That was a pretty decent one over there by the Rice Marsh. I like that.
Andrews: Alright. And we're doing park benches and the city will come up with a couple of
baskets for us. Alright, let's move on. Carver Beach playground. Looks like we're in real
good shape there. Any comments that, or any other items we may need?
Hoffman: Oh the fence, I know that Dale Gregory, Park Maintenance Foreman has
recommended that some fencing be looked at. Replacement. There's holes in that fence.
It's been there 20 some years.
.
Andrews: How long of a fence is that? That's going to be some big bucks then. Is that a
wood fence or a chain fence?
Hoffman: Chain fence. About a $10,000.00 ticket probably.
Andrews: Let's put it in and see where we end up here.
Hoffman: I'll come up with a more conservative figure. We'll review...
Roeser: We're talking '95 now right?
Andrews: Yep. I should be adding this up as I go here and I'm not. Let's move on to mini
park.
Hoffman: ...for that basketball court and we're grading the play area so we'll grade the
basketball court and the play area this year. What will be in that play area is a swing set,
which is...every day so if you'd like to add, my visualization for that site is not a continuous
play apparatus. Just a slide... '95 or '96.
36
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Lash: What's there now?
Hoffman: There will be a basketball court and a swing.
Andrews: Is a swing ADA okay at this point?
Hoffman: Yep. Well ADA, no. CPSC, yes. Not accessible.
Andrews: Does that mean we have to bring this up to ADA then to provide access then to
the swing? Since we're improving the area.
Hoffman: That's been our policy to date, yes.
Andrews: Do we need to add a budget item for that then?
Lash: I wouldn't do it. I don't think: it's worth investing that much money just to put in a
slide.
Berg: You're not getting much action down there. You're not getting much requests for
anything on that one, are you?
Lash: We did have a request last year but I would rather invest the money in Rice Marsh
Lake and make that better than to spend a bunch of money in this.
Andrews: Oh I agree. This is just the wrong spot.
Hoffman: You could argue under the guides of ADA that where we take it You can put
down a swing and slide in the spring and if that would want to be contested, then you could
point to Rice Marsh Lake as conforming to our accessibility...
Lash: And could we get by with that? If we could get by with that, that would be my...
Hoffman: I don't know if you can get by with it but I don't know if you're going to get
pushed on the issue either.
Andrews: I just don't think: that's a great location to develop. I mean it's very isolated.
Manders: I wasn't under the understanding that every park had to have ADA access as long
as there was some acceptable replacement to that.
37
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Hoffman: Every location and development needs to have like opportunities.
Manders: At that location.
Hoffman: Well, yeah. Again I was going through this with the neighborhood...
Andrews: I think we're getting on thin ice on this one if we don't do it right, it will bite us.
I don't want to get nailed for a bunch of money. What's the consensus? Do we want to put
the money into this one or not?
Manders: Just don't put anything in there.
Lash: I vote for that.
Andrews: Where we're at right now is we've got pea gravel and a swing and a basketball
court. That's where we're on line right now?
Hoffman: Right now the swing's on turf. When we regrade the park, they're putting a new
pipe through there as part of that street project. They're going to grade the park for us.
They're going to put the basketball pad in and then create a play structure and traditionally
when we grade that pea gravel area, we make it large enough for what we anticipate in the
future so I would ask for some direction. Would there ever be a chance because?
.
Andrews: Yes.
Hoffman: Okay.
Andrews: Make it big enough to accommodate potential future development. What do we
need to put in for that then, anything? Do we need to put some money in for the pea gravel
and border for '95 then?
Hoffman: Yeah, it would be.
Andrews: Several thousand or?
Hoffman: Yeah. Border wood's the most expensive.
Andrews: What do you think they are, $3,000.00? $4,000.00?
Hoffman: $3,000.00.
38
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Andrews: $3,000.00, okay. Alright, Chanhassen Hills. Play area expansion is on line for
'95. Based on how our budget's been blown on every play structure we've touched lately, do
we need to up that? We've tended to go over budget or have to cut items in order to get
what we want lately.
Hoffman: Depending on, that may be a typo. That should be in '94...We awarded that
Andrews: Okay, so we can skip that at the moment.
Berg: That is a beautiful park. Talk about a classic neighborhood park. When those trees get
developed. It's just beautiful.
Lash: Have there been requests for anything else?..
Andrews: Chanhassen Pond Park. It looks like we're in good shape there. Any comments
about Chanhassen Pond Park?
Lash: How much repairs...'96. Have we got a liability...for it?
Hoffman: There's liability and then also to advance the condition of the stairway and the
trail. It would be our recommendation at some point to continue the asphalt to where it ends
up Laredo. Take the stairway right out and just asphalt that all the way down to the bridge.
And then continue to asphalt the other side of the bridge out to the steps which is there right
now. It's used fairly heavily for access to the school and...at some point in the future replace
the...which is currently there...We're talking about a series of trail improvements. If you
recall the...a little farther north that connects Carver Beach to this area. That's all in a line of
trail systems for people in those neighborhoods to use that. . There are times when you see
heavy use on that particular section of the traiL.but the reason the stairs went in in the ftrst
place was because they were having difficulty maintaining the gravel because of washouts. It
would be the present project, blacktop in front of it. Take the stairs out. Put a contract in for
that and.
Andrews: Any guesstimate on numbers?
Hoffman: Approximately $10,000.00 for the trail. Pheasant Hills cost $8,000.00 this year so.
Andrews: This is a more difftcult area?
Hoffman: A little more.
39
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Lash: ...extend trail or whatever.
Andrews: Let's put that in.
Manders: What was that observation platform? I guess just an item of information.
Hoffman: What was it?
Manders: It was a stand that was built as a Boy Scout project right there at the top of the
stairway. So you could walk up there and look out over the park.
Lash: Right off of Kerber. It was a pretty view from up there.
Hoffman: It came off of Laredo.
Lash: I thought were was one off of Kerber.
Andrews: Move to City Center Park. Just to give commission members a running tally,
we're at $25,000.00 so far.
Lash: Did you put this for in '95?
.
Andrews: Yeah, I moved the $10,000.00 in to '95. So we're at $25,000.00 so far. The
warming house is not listed here as a potential project.
Hoffman: Or the hockey rinks.
Andrews: Nor the hockey rinks. Where are we going with that? I mean is that, are we
going to wait until there's some ultimate master city park redevelopment or are we going to
try to do this on a piecemeal basis?
Hoffman: It's been the thought process to date to let those things, maintain them as on an as
needed basis until such time when City Center Park and the City Hall expansion becomes a
reality and that will be it.
Manders: Is the sealcoating on the tennis courts or what is that sealcoating for this year?
Hoffman: Not necessary. That money we put into sealcoating, the material which you see is
the sealcoating has not been done along Kerber but there was an overlay done as part of the
paving management plan for 1994 to receive the overlay. So this money will be shifted to
40
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
sea1coat on the trail.
Lash: What about the tennis courts. That usually needs maintenance.
Hoffman: Yeah, there was talk of maybe maintenance this year or next year...
Andrews: It always bothers me that here we are talking about our capital improvement
program and the majority of the money is going to maintenance. Curry Farms Park. We
have a play area expansion, $5,000.00. Again, I look at that number and it concerns me that
it looks like a very small dollar figure.
Lash: That barely gets, unless we already have all the border and the pea rock in there, that's
about all you're going to get.
Andrews: That's not going to get much.
Hoffman: Can't even get the access through ADA.
Berg: That seems to be an area that gets a lot of use too.
. Hoffman: A lot of requests.
Andrews: Again, we're at $25,000.00 so far and we're quite a ways through this already. I
think we should hit, if we're going to do these kinds of projects and get in there and do the
work, we ought to do them right.
Lash: Because if we have to put in border and pea rock and everything, I don't think
$15,000.00 would be out of line.
Andrews: I don't either.
Lash: By the time you put in the border and the pea rock.
Andrews: $15,000.00's going to be a real ordinary phase I nowadays, unfortunately.
Hoffman: I can't even handle a Phase I. In talking to the vendors the $20,000.00 to
purchase the border wood, get the ADA mat, all those things. $20,000.00. We used to talk
10 to 13. Now we're talking 15... Chan Hills, that is a typo. That was a 1994
improvement...wasn't completed so it..
.
41
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Lash: So you didn't have that..
Andrews: I'm lost here. Where are we now?
Roeser: Chan Hills? How we'd get back there?
Andrews: Chan Hills, okay. The 13 is '94?
Hoffman: Correct.
Andrews: Okay, so we don't need that in our '95. I did not put that in so we're okay.
Greenwood. Do we need to do anything there? I think we're okay there. I was going to
make the comment, do we need new no parking signs but I think we're okay with that.
Herman Field.
Lash: We need to discuss the tennis courts.
Berg: I was going to say, I'm sorry. I'm drifting. Back to Curry Farms for just a second.
They have I think 5 picnic tables down there. It looked 3 of them were in really rough
shape. I don't know if we want to take a look at perhaps replacing a couple of those.
.
Lash: Have you been going around to every park?
Berg: Yeah. I decided I better do that.
Lemme: Some of those picnic tables have been moved from other places. When there's a
playground...shift so I don't know where those...
Andrews: Do we need to look at this getting some more tables for our inventory. Yes we
do? What does a picnic table cost? $300.00-$400.00 a pop?
Hoffman: Three or less.
Andrews: How about 10 of them? Is that enough? 20 of them?
Lash: There goes our whole budget.
Andrews: No, that's not that much. 30 tables, $1O,000.00? Do that many?
Hoffman: I don't know that we.
42
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Ruegemer: We need to do a lot more...we need additional tables there.
Lash: Our playground sites, couldn't we get by with just benches?
Ruegemer: As far as the craft projects and.
Andrews: They're nice to have too. I mean I've been to a few of the parks and it's just nice
to have that place to set things down. We'll come back to that one at the end here. We'll
see what we're tallying up because we may want to hit that pretty big. Herman Field. There
was the comment about the tennis court. Who was that?
Lash: That was me. So is this.
Hoffman: That went in.
Roeser: It's up?
Lash: How about the basketball hoop? ...so is that basically done except to add the
playground? And that's all they wanted?
Hoffman: It's not all they wanted but that's.
Andrews: All they're going to get.
Hoffman: Those were the high priority list. The playfields and the picnic sites. The
playfields, the ballfields and the play structure.
Andrews: Lake Ann.
Lash: I see on the suggestions from the suggestion box, and I was the one who took the
suggestion from the woman and I was just there the night before I came when there was... to
install bleachers at Lake Ann for the kids fields or some other type of seating. It does get to
be pretty uncomfortable when you're at Field #1 and you're sitting behind the backstop on
that hill. Is there something that we could, is there some kind of, build in something or tier
something or would that be just astronomically expensive?
Hoffman: Anything we did there other than what we have would be a major initiative. Both
from the standpoint of accessibility and inability of pouring concrete for bleachers.
Andrews: You'd have to rip it all up again too which it seems like every time we get it nice,
43
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
back in again.
Hoffman: It's one of those issues that it's always there. People are always coming at you
abouL.how it was created in the fIrst place was an amphitheater type seating on the hillside.
If you were to do a full sized bleacher, you're talking something which is more diffIcult..
Lash: When you're sitting there for about 2 1/2 hours, it's just not comfortable.
Andrews: Lake Ann, do we have any items there that need to be considered? It looks like
we're in real good shape there. Alright, let's move on. Lake Susan.
Hoffman: Jerry, did you have some comments on Lake Ann?
Ruegemer: I just thought, I've been receiving comments this summer with our fIeld shortage
situation we have been playing other games, baseball games, softball games, that type of
thing on Fields 4, 5. Whatever fields might be available that night. Jan, have you
experienced anything with foul balls coming out in sitting behind, like on the hillside type of
thing? I take comments and calls from people who have gotten hit with foul balls. Stray
foul balls.
Lash: Coming from the new fields? Hitting into the old fields?
.
Ruegemer: Anywhere, yes. Up on like fields 4 and 5...
Lash: I've had it happen on Field 1 also and I haven't been bothered at all.
Ruegemer: I was just wondering if you on the commission would like to see any type of
extensions on the backstop that would cover over. That would reduce that scenario possibly.
Lash: Is that the foul balls that are coming? Are they coming over the backstop? See if I
ever have to be aware of any, they're ones coming down the fIrst base line and the third base
line. Not the ones going over, not that many go over the backstop. I don't think.
Hoffman: We've had one extremely concerned person that thought we were horribly
negligent.
Andrews: It does sort of put a fInishing touch on the ball facility to have that protection. It
would be nice. You can't watch in all directions. You just can't. When you're on a
ballfield, the balls coming off of your diamond are easy to catch, especially if you're on the
base lines. But one coming over the back, I mean you have no idea it's coming at you.
44
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Hoffman: Other ballfield complexes have considerably more both in terms of fencing
backstops and netting.
Andrews: Again, I would need to ask any kind of a dollar figure that would help us there.
Hoffman: I can come back with one.
Andrews: How many ballfields are in that complex?
Hoffman: Six.
Andrews: I bet you'd be talking a couple thousand a piece, at least. We need to put
something down just to give us a number to play with. 15?
Hoffman: 30.
Ruegemer: Another element too would be possibly looking at Field #3, possibly fence
replacement and possibly posts realignment...severely bowed out from people leaning against
that for fly balls.
Lash: The back fence then?
Ruegemer: The outfield fence line, right. We had looked at that last year, or two years ago
and I think at that time it was about $10,000.00-$12,000.00.
Andrews: That comes out of maintenance doesn't it?
Hoffman: ...speaking of maintaining it, which traditionally has been taking a front end loader
in the very early spring and popping the frost heave posts back down into the ground, that's
about all the maintenance. We have discussed with the City Council a maintenance budget
and we will be doing that again this year.
Andrews: I don't want to put that in there because we'll get hung for a $50,000.00 bill on
that and that should not be coming out of capital improvement.
Lash: Are you talking just fence material? The posts are already there...?
Hoffman: No. The poles...
Andrews: Pull the whole thing out and do it over again and that would be a huge project.
45
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26. 1994
.
Very expensive.
Hoffman: The park and the city ...maintenance and replacement budget, just like vehicles and
autos have to be replaced.
Andrews: We know what other cities do and they do it differently. They have a maintenance
budget for those kinds of items and those are not coming out of their capital improvement
fund and that to me is not what the capital improvement fund was intended to do.
Hoffman: I've preached on that for a long time...almost successful last year.
Andrews: Well if we budget it. we'll never get any relief.
Berg: Right. I think we have to dig our heels in and say here's a need. We weren't able to
fund it out of our CIP. We've got to do something different.
Hoffman: ...we did this last year...
Lemme: Todd, there's some items possibly even with just additional canoes and that kind of
thing. The money... '93 that are not...
.
Hoffman: Yes...budget it in '95.
Lemme: ...use of canoes is really increasing...
Hoffman: Tonight was intended as your brainstorming session so as you get through it and
we see where you're at, we'll be plugging in all our suggestions and comments. We have a
running list.
Andrews: Come back again.
Hoffman: Yep, rather than...
Andrews: Should we put in like a $5,000 catch all for some of these. That will take care of
some canoes. Cash register. Couple boat or two. I guess that's, we don't need to be specific
here yet but let's do that then. I'll write that in. We're at $45,000.00 so far so we're still
very conservative at this point. Lake Susan Park. A track ride in the budget. Oh, that was
for this year. Did that get done? That's done. Okay.
Lash: We had the ballfield lights last year and they're not there right?
46
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Andrews: That was going to come out of HRA though wasn't it?
Hoffman: The HRA...they would like to see a commitment from perhaps the Legion or the
Athletic Association to put those in and there is not a major initiative out there...to see these
lights go in. They're not banging our door down.
Lash: At Lake Susan. How about at Lake Ann? I hear them all time for out at Lake Ann.
Hoffman: As an initiative out of our department, they're out of the park department.
...commission to go ahead and light more fields, either at Lake Susan or Lake Ann, I think we
need to look at that. As these future needs change, Lake Ann is going to be the site for the
lit complex in the city.
Andrews: Be one of them. And the school property will be another one probably.
Hoffman: The cost has also increased significantly from... was put together. Costs for
lighting at Lake Susan are up around $100,000.00 or better.
Lash: You're saying the HRA is willing to fund it if the CAA and the Lions and other
people will help to fund it?
Hoffman: They'll consider it, sure.
Roeser: But it's baseball lighting, isn't it? We're not talking softball lighting here. Much
more expensive. And if there's no demand for it, there's no town baseball team. Actually
there's only one, the Legion baseball team is what uses it. And they haven't been asking for
it have they?
Ruegemer: There's other groups out there Ron that are certainly using Lake Susan. The
different associations.
Lash: Babe Ruth plays there.
Ruegemer: Yeah. Minnesota Valley and Chaska District baseball just started a new program
this year...
Andrews: We need to, we'll discuss this as this money has a sunset to it. If we don't take it
by a certain date, it's gone.
Hoffman: HRA?
47
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Andrews: Yep. And I also am not sure if they could spend it at Lake Ann, even if they
wanted to. It's outside the district so we're fairly limited.
Hoffman: My point being is that Lake Susan is a ballfield and has some major potential...but
we do not see any grassroots efforts that you see in the other towns. Victoria is investing
$300,000.00 and the Lions...by the time they get done, they've got half a million dollars into
one ballfield. That's coming from an initiative of local groups. Other small towns you see
that as well. Chanhassen is a different community...whereas families are busier. The
volunteer efforts in the form of grassroots organizations are...not available but they look to
the city to provide more of the financing. More of the coordination and the organization. If
you would like that to be your role, you could simply play that role.
Berg: Have they been asked? Has the CAA been asked if they'd be interested?
Hoffman: Not formally, no. But informally yes.
Lash: I mean I have heard from quite a few different people in the CAA that they'd like to
see more fields lit. When they say that to me I always say, we don't have the money so I
think that they probably have heard that enough times now where they're figuring well what's
the point of continuing to ask when they're always being told we don't have the money. .
They've offered, in the past they've offered to help do fund raising. They've offered to
install them themselves and they told me that and I brought it up, I was told no. We couldn't
allow that because of liability things so I think that there's been interest. It's probably mainly
at Lake Ann that I've heard about it but I think at Lake Susan, that's going to happen in a
couple of years because as our population is growing and there's not the population in that
age bracket yet that they really need to have it at Lake Susan. But in the next I guess 2 or 3
years, that age population, now that it does enough to form these new leagues that are
starting, it's going to be in that age bracket and then there's going to be a demand and
they're going to need to be playing 2 games a night every night. And that would be the only
field that would be regulation for Babe Ruth.
Hoffman: It's just a point of economics. $100,000.00 is a heck of an investment and if
you're going to playa couple hours of lit ballgames, 4 nights a week for 3 months, what does
that come out to. So if you don't have unanimous unilateral support for $100,000.00
investment, then that's something that...
Andrews: However, the HRA has got money they don't know what to do with.
Lash: Yeah, it's not like it's our budget money. I'd be more hesitant if it was $100,000.00
off of our budget. But if we can get some other sources to pay for it, then eventually we
48
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
won't have to when the need is there. It will be done.
Hoffman: Okay...HRA budget for '95.
Berg: Well then approach the Legion. Approach CAA.
Andrews: Which HRA, that's the downtown HRA district?
Hoffman: Correct.
Berg: And they could decide if they want to spend it someplace else. Let's give them the
opportunity to spend it on lights.
Roeser: A lighted ballpark would really be nice. A baseball park.
Andrews: I'm just trying to help them with their problem.
Lash: Well I know that the need will be there in a few years and if we can head it off, for
once, and not pay for it.
Andrews: That's 100 grand that we save.
Berg: It will be $150,000.00 when we need it.
Andrews: And that will be $150,000.00 we can spend on something else.
Manders: The other question I have on Lake Susan is, is trail access on, I don't know what
side of the lake it is but going up to that development. The trail kind of dead ends. Is there
access? I know there's a kind of foot path type access down to the trail but there isn't really
no paved access into that development?
Hoffman: There will be. The developer of Lake Susan Hills West is on the itch to do that.
They're just grading...
Roeser: So they will be connected to Lake Susan by a trail?
Hoffman: All the way down.
Lash: That was one of my questions I got on the 4th of July from somebody.
Roeser: Yeah, that's one you hear a lot of. Maybe we'd like to be.
49
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Hoffman: Actually the Chan Hills is more difficult. We have the beaver dam and then we
dug it out 3 feet and then we drained the pond and then we had a resident call, where did our
pond go. The beaver had it dammed up to such a point where the trail that was grubbed out
was becoming the new canal for the creek so we had to lower that down to get, complete the
trail to Chanhassen Hills it's becoming more and more complicated.
Andrews: Let's move on.
Hoffman: One thought about either Lake Susan or Lake Ann or any community park if you
will. The city has many nice play structures but we do not have a destination play structure.
Many of the park systems.
Andrews: Like a Chutes and Ladders kind of deal?
Hoffman: Chutes and Ladders. Starring Lake. Those are a highlight of many park systems.
We have 27 parks. We do not have at Lake Susan is one alternative location. The current
system there is very large but it's not something that's dramatic.
Andrews: We're talking huge dollars though for those.
Hoffman: Yeah, big dollars and if you want to look at that If that's even an interest.
.
Andrews: That's a potential alternative to lights. You know you put 100 grand into one of
those deals.
Hoffman: So that's something to think about either on this site or Lake Ann, we don't have a
great spot for it or it could be for a future park in the city. As far as that poster, one of them
says economic activities. If you want to generate some economic activity, have a destination
playground in your city and you'll get a lot of economic activities. Field trip after field trip
after field trip after family car load go to these destination playgrounds. And then they picnic
here and they purchase their products and that in that particular city or location.
Roeser: Put it in City Center Park then. Then we could get it downtown.
Lash: ...some kind of distinctive topography to build into and I don't see that in most of the
things that we have. Lake Ann does but that doesn't look to me to lend itself. I know I
mentioned for Power Hill I wanted to try and do something but that's a neighborhood park so
we don't necessarily want to have car load after car load of families...
Hoffman: Yeah, you're right. Starring Lake has that island and that is a big problem.
50
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Lash: Chutes and Ladders.
Andrews: Let's move on to Meadow Green, which has nothing.
Megers: How much money are we at?
Andrews: Right now our running total is at $45,000.00.
Berg: Is that bleacher that we have marked there for '93, is that the one that's in already or
is that budgeted for the other ballfield?
Hoffman: Second ballfield.
Berg: Okay, good.
Lash: And if somebody needs to say that on the 4th of July too. It's so wet at the southern
field that they need to have some bleachers. Is that where this is going?
Hoffman: Yes.
. Andrews: Anything more for that one? Let's move on to Minnewashta Heights. We do
have a play area refurbishment planned at $7,000.00 and again, does that need to be bumped
up to be more accurate as to what we'd anticipate? That seems awful low again.
Hoffman: I don't know that, I'll have to take a look at that. If that's necessary. We've done
a lot of things. Being forced to go ahead and do the compliance with CPSC. We've done a
lot of refurbishing out there...
Andrews: I'll leave it in and we'll see where we end up. It would always be nice to have
you come back and say, we had $7,000.00 budgeted that we didn't need to spend. North
Lotus. We've got a hockey rink scheduled. I guess is there anything that can be done with, I
don't think there can be anything done more for parking there. The neighborhood is over run
with cars whenever there's an event there, which seems to be frequently now.
Berg: Where's the skating rink going in relationship to the parking lot? I couldn't figure that
out.
Andrews: Just down below it.
Berg: The next tier down.
.
51
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Hoffman: But then the hockey rink will replace the skating rink. So you'd be forced to put
the skating down in the ballfields.
Andrews: You could put the skating down, there's another level down from that. There's a
second step down to the east. It's not really being used much right now.
Roeser: Is there a warming house that goes with this too?
Hoffman: This year we'll be putting in a skating rink and electrical service and then we'll
...satellite warming house.
Andrews: I know one thing that before we can put lights up, we'd better have a
neighborhood hearing I mean because I think there will be people that are going to come
screaming.
Lash: I thought it was just like one.
Andrews: One light. Okay, just a skating light in other words.
Roeser: Oh, it's not a lighted hockey rink?
.
Lash: No.
Andrews: Okay, that's different. That's not a problem then.
Berg: Will there be a light in the parking lot as well? Didn't we talk about that once? And
then running power off of that to the skating rink. Is that what we had talked about?
Lash: Well there was a request for a light in the parking lot down there and we decided to
skip it or something, didn't we?
Hoffman: It has to be two lights. One at the parking lot and one at the skating rink.
Andrews: That would be adequate for skating.
Lash: So you're saying before we move on in '95 to the hockey rink with lights, we'd have
to have a neighborhood?
Andrews: No, I was thinking these flood.
52
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Lash: Well if you have a hockey rink with lights...and that's coming next year.
Andrews: We're not talking a lighted hockey rink. We're talking a hockey rink and also a
light to provide this minimal amount.
Lash: Well that's this year. A skating rink with a light. Next year it's a hockey rink with
lights.
Hoffman: I was only speaking to what the program is for '94.
Andrews: Okay. Needs a neighborhood hearing, yeah. Yeah, I would love to see it. We
need something somewhere. $25,000.00's not a lot of money. The one advantage to that
particular park is there's really only one house even close and it's sheltered by trees and
shrubbery. It would be possible to light the rink with little overflow directly into houses.
Lash: But we need that meeting before we...
Andrews: Well I guess we have to gut check here and say, do we really want to do this. I
know we've talked about doing it. I think there is a need.
. Berg: Well we've already trimmed down from I think 4 or 5 potential hockey rinks down to
this one.
Andrews: And there was 1 or 2 and we were going to try it and see.
Berg: It was going to be Meadow Green and Carver Beach.
Lash: And that was just skating.
Berg: I thought that was hockey too.
Lash: That was with the warming house. We had about 8 of those spread around and we
trimmed that way back to just 1 up there.
Andrews: So we need to add that $8,000.00 back in or is that now budgeted through?
Hoffman: It's still in there.
Andrews: Okay, so we need to look at the $25,000.00 for a hockey rink.
.
53
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Lash: What kind of a feel are you getting from...
Hoffman: As far as neighborhood...
Andrews: We have nothing.
Lash: No, I know we have nothing. But is there.
Hoffman: Absolutely...scenario trying to maintain a pond.
Andrews: Fox Hollow's doing the same thing.
Hoffman: Then you get into...
Andrews: It's a lot of money and I'm not a hockey person but I think it's something that, I
think we've got to do it. I think it's an area that.
Hoffman: It's something we can look at.
Lash: Well and it's a natural to put it there because if you're already sending a crew out to .
maintain a skating rink, they mig~t as well maintain a hockey rink too instead of having them
at two separate locations.
Andrews: Another thing we talked about, if you want to make this into more of a multi-use
rink, would be to consider putting some sort of a surface on it for Rollerblade. There is
definitely, I'm speaking personally here but boy there'd be people that would just go crazy to
have a place they could play roller hockey in the summer.
Manders: That's the strategy we're planning on at the school.
Hoffman: We dropped that because it was an $80,000.00 item.
Roeser: Yeah, I wouldn't consider putting it there. If you're going to put it as a Rollerblade
rink, it would be better if you put it in a city center park or somewhere. This would be kind
of sticking it into a neighborhood.
Andrews: Too small. The other option was, they will get used by the soccer leagues. By
the little 8 year olds and 6 year old groups. They play those little half hockey rink games. It
will get used.
54
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Lash: Well for $25,000.00 isn't even...
Hoffman: I need to investigate lighting and material costs for a rink which would most likely
we would build ourselves and install and...
Andrews: With the $25,000.00 we're at $77,000.00 so far which is still pretty good.
Pheasant Hill Park. We have nothing on our plan for that.
Lash: Let's scratch the double tennis court right off there.
Andrews: Yeah, that's not consistent with our plan.
Lash: We don't have to put basketball in would we?
Andrews: Power Hill Park. We have a play area budgeted at $18,000.00. That seems like a
fairly good number in this case. Do we need to look at upping that at all?
Hoffman: 22 would be better.
Lash: What was the $2,000.00 for?
Andrews: Prep work?
Hoffman: Prep work.
Lash: And then I know this is slated for beyond '96 but I don't even know if it's realistic to
put a picnic shelter over there. I mean I just can't imagine that anybody would ever invest,
knowing what a picnic shelter costs, that we would ever spend that...
Hoffman: You want to put one in the middle of Lake Ann before you do anywhere else.
Lash: So could we just scratch that so people...
Manders: One point of curiosity up there with the parking lot that was put in. Was that
problem ever corrected? It seemed to me that it was not real well done the fIrst time.
Hoffman: Dale Gregory...superintendent has talked to me. It will be corrected by... Chris
Sones was in this afternoon talking with Gary and he stopped by my office to get an update
on Power Park. They're having their neighborhood picnic.
55
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Manders: Is that hill going to be open this winter? That was a hot item I know.
Hoffman: If we can make arrangements with the adjoining property owner for runoff. He
don't know if there's sufficient property or not for a runoff. So we need that. Not that it
would be a problem.
Andrews: Why can't we get this stuff done the right way?
Hoffman: It was acquired 8 years ago as a remnant parcel. It's...people are really convinced
that this is, if they want to make this a real neat neighborhood park and all it is is two
holding ponds and a remnant piece of land which we're...it was not designed for a park.
Andrews: Alright. We're trying too hard in other words. Prairie Knoll Park.
Lash: That was one that somebody said something to me. Yeah, at the 4th of July. They
wanted to know when that playground...and I thought we had discussion not too long ago
about just skipping that altogether and leaving it natural.
Hoffman: Yeah, it's just a piece of land out there that, the concept master plan for the trail
from Dove Court to Powers Blvd and a play structure. And on that side of the road you have
a play structure at Lake Susan being the largest one in the city, so whether or not you want to
invest in that or if you want to make it off the master plans. Part of the 1995 cleaning house
will be an update of those park master concepts so we get a chance to take a...
.
Andrews: Good, then let's do it then. We'll revisit that one.
Hoffman: There's nothing in it for '95.
Andrews: Rice Marsh. Anything we need to add there? Nothing. South Lotus. We've
poured plenty of money into there, in my opinion. That's another HRA project wasn't it.
Lash: Shouldn't it say tennis court?
Andrews: That was HRA. It's in. It gets a lot of use. Sunset Ridge Park. We have
nothing scheduled there. Right now we're at $99,000.00. Park rules signs. Do we need to
add a little bit there for next year, do we have some inventory or?
Hoffman: Wait for inventory.
Andrews: Picnic benches. We said we'd get back to that one. $10,000.00 will get us what,
56
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
about 30?
Hoffman: We were at about 30 at $300.00. $10,000.00, yeah.
Andrews: Is that going to make, is that going to help us? Is that going to get us to a good
spot?
Lash: What is we said $12,000.00 and that includes benches too...
Andrews: Sound reasonable? Let's do it. Boy Scout project, do we have any takers this
year?
Hoffman: None this year...
Andrews: I'll leave the $500.00 in there just because we don't want to deny somebody.
Hoffman: ...$10,000.00, it would be very nice. The problem is, at a minimum we're going
to work with 10 to 15...
Lash: How come we don't bring...tree farm.
Hoffman: The tree farms out there growing...take a bunch of trees out and put new ones in.
Andrews: If Mr. Halla develops his property, hadn't he mentioned a willingness to let us
pluck some trees out of there or was he going to move those himself? Or are they too big?
Are they too big?
Ruegemer: They won't be giving any trees away.
Berg: I got the impression that the city was making him develop that.
Andrews: That's kind of, I was having trouble reading what he was trying to say. I had a
couple items that were not listed here that I thought should be discussed. One is that the city,
or the Park Board has offered matching money to District 112 for putting in some playground
equipment that they've never come and taken from us. District 276 has an interest in doing
some grading to, that they have a football field up at Minnetonka Middle School West. The
track there is, I don't know the word I heard was it's illegal or whatever. They can't even
use it anymore. They want to regrade that parcel so they can put two soccer fields in. Those
fields are used by Chanhassen residents and by a large number of those. I guess I'm
wondering if that's something that we would have any interest in participating in at all.
57
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Another issue I had was the Highway 101 trail, which is my pet issue. It's the one I want to
keep pushing because if it doesn't get pushed, it's never going to happen. And last year we
had put in $15,000.00 to that fund. I guess I would like to see the Board consider kicking in
some sort of money there to show that it's a continued interest. And then we have the new
school and several new parks coming on line that are going to be hitting us for big dollars.
Lash: Can I, I need to always clarify in my mind how this works. This money is still sitting
here, right?
Andrews: Yeah, these reserves. Yeah, they're sitting there.
Lash: So if we wanted to add to it, we could do that.
Andrews: Yep...
Lash: Now for the general fund reserve, and the land acquisition west of Lake Minnewashta,
how much, will those two figures be totally depleted by the time we're done with Stockdale
and the Lake Minnewashta West parcel that we're getting?
Hoffman: Most likely. The land acquisition west of Lake Minnewashta, whether you have
general fund reserve. How far that goes in, depends on what point we are in the year end
expenditures and revenues. But it will be hit.
.
Lash: And new school site furnishings, that's just for like the lobby area and that kind of
stuff that we need to do when it's new.
Hoffman: There will be a ton of things going on.
Lash: Is that going to be an adequate amount?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: So what's more realistic?
Hoffman: I don't have an answer for you. It depends on, the City Council will be funding a
variety of things out there for furnishings. What works best...and benches. There's no play
structure budgeted anywhere for the site for the city portion. The city park portion. So once
you start spreading these things out.
Andrews: I'm not sure that's a good place for a play structure.
58
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Hoffman: It's always thought that the siblings to do while the parents are with the other kids
so it's the same concept as Lake Ann.
Lash: City Center too.
Andrews: We could certainly, we're at $121,500.00 now. Last year's budget was 150 and
that was very conservative and I don't know, however the people feel. I think we ought to be
a little more aggressive this year in our budgeting but I think with all these different reserves,
yeah. We could go through the rest of what we have coming and we should designate some
money.
Hoffman: When it involves land acquisition west of Lake Minnewashta what I'll do is,
$225,000.00.
Andrews: But we're hoping the city will be helping us there, aren't we? I mean the Council
will find it's own money to help us there some. Any suggestions how we'd like to allocate
here? I guess I'd suggest that we look at maybe $175,000.00 as a number? Does that sound
reasonable? Does anybody have another suggestion?
Manders: What I'd like to know is what number we think we're shooting for and then we
can deal with these remaining reserves in terms of splitting them off.
Lash: We can't just pick a pie in the sky figure and say well we had $150 this year. Let's
bump it to $175. It has a lot to do with what's coming in and what the City Council's going
to approve.
Andrews: Well we've got 300 coming in already this year. I mean we took in double what
we thought we would take in. The year before we took in less than what we thought we'd
take in. So we had almost a 100% increase in one year. And we're going to be more than
100% increase in one year.
Hoffman: It's all basically...two major, Byerly's at $65,000.00 and the apartments behind
Byerly's which were a total of over $100,000.00 by the time it's done.
Lash: Well I'm just saying, we don't have a lot of money to spend. We can't look at that
and say we've got lots of money now because we're going to be with, what if we do get
tapped for some of this for Minnewashta. I hate to take it all in one time.
Andrews: That goes in the general fund reserve? The excess that will come in this year goes
all into the.
59
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Hoffman: It goes into the park acquisition and development fund.
Andrews: Which is just a general fund?
Hoffman: It's a capital improvement fund.
Lash: But it's our fund.
Hoffman: Absolutely.
Andrews: Where does that show on this fund 410 then? Is that anywhere? Is it a separate
item or?
Hoffman: It's a separate budgeted item.
Andrews: And it has no money in it now or?
Hoffman: No. It has...
Andrews: I guess that should be shown here because that kind of paints a different picture of .
what the future could be. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't put money in there. I think we
should but.
Hoffman: I can get you the sheet...somewhere.
Andrews: Well knowing that there's $400+ thousand dollars in that. And it appears as
though we're going to probably contribute somewhere in the neighborhood of another
$150,000.00+ to that fund. Not including costs of the Minnewashta Park acquisition. That's
an unknown at this point still.
Hoffman: It's...and that's $30,000.00. You're going to write the check within the next 3
months.
Andrews: I guess my question Todd would be, are we allocating only the dollars that we
receive over the 1995 year or are we allocating the excess collected this year plus what we
receive next year?
Hoffman: You have the discretion to ask the City Council to do whatever you like.
Andrews: Okay. Boy, you don't make this any easier.
60
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Hoffman: You can say hey, we've collected another extra $200,000.00. We'd like to spend
it all this year. Or you can say we'd like to be conservative and we think there's going to be
a lot of other things coming up in the city and we want to be penny pinchers and that's the
line you've taken.
Andrews: Well I think that's the best way to do it because if you spend it, you don't have it
when you need it.
Hoffman: You've been, made it possible to go ahead and purchase this land west of Lake
Minnewashta. You guys have been conservative since you built the Lake Ann shelter. If you
would have blown that money every year, you'd be begging to get that money for that.
Andrews: We're talking about Mr. Halla.
Lash: And that's really how we've been able to do almost anything.
Hoffman: Build it up and spend it
Lash: Because we could never get a big ticket item...
. Andrews: I guess to make things simple, I guess I'd say we're in the $150,000.00+ position
cashflow as of this year. You can take $100,000.00 of that right off the top and say, put it in
the general reserve. You know we don't know what we're going to do with that I mean
anybody could propose alternatives here. We could go on all night saying well why don't we
put it here or there but general fund gives us the ability to designate it anyway we want it. I
mean we could designate it all to the general fund and just divvy it up later when we know
what the final numbers are.
Lash: Well I don't know that the City Council would. They're going to want to see why
we're asking for x number of dollars.
Andrews: Yeah, you're right. I mean if we don't designate some of it, Minnewashta's a
good example. I mean we could designate another $75,000.00 toward that project without
any problem.
Hoffman: Then you could designate $100,000.00 or $50,000.00 for initial levels in 1995.
Lash: Right, that's what I'm thinking. I have a list of some things that we need to designate
money for too so we need to think of all these different things that just as we've been talking,
obviously we need to bump the new school site thing. I don't know how much but it's going
.
61
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
to be probably at least double that And then your, at Minnetonka, we have demand for
soccer fields and if Chan residents have access to that, if we want to contribute to that, I
don't have a problem with that. We have the Minnewashta park that's going to be minimum
that we'll want to do out there is grade and seed it right away. That's a chunk of coin. And
then the Halla property and Bandimere development. Maybe we need to start just like we did
with Lake Minnewashta. Just each year designate a park and the same thing with TH 101.
You know bump that each year by however much we possibly can until we fmally get it built
up to where it looks like we're serious about it and we can at least get support behind us and
maybe get help from somebody else to help us do it. But it's the only way we're going to
move on.
Andrews: Let's start at the top. Try to see if we can come up with some numbers. Lake
acquisition west of Lake Minnewashta. We know we're $75,000.00 short there. Is it
responsible to assume that the Council will pick up any shortage?
Hoffman: We have a grant application in for LAWCON.
Andrews: That's very speculative, correct?
Hoffman: Very speculative, yes.
.
Andrews: Alright. I propose that we allocate $75,000.00 of our surplus towards that project
Manders: We're going to need it
Andrews: Yep, we're going to need it I mean that's a minimum we're going to, we know
we're going to need that.
Lash: Is Stockdale done? We don't need to worry about that anymore? That's a done deal
as far as money.
Hoffman: To fund the purchase. It's coming right out of this fund. It's not even on here.
Lash: Okay, so we need to add that on here.
Andrews: How much is Stockdale? Remember him.
Hoffman: I've got a figure here for you. $150,000.00.
Andrews: Well that's one of those we do some now and some later I think or totally on to
62
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
that one.
Lash: How much do we have to pay this year up front?
Hoffman: We did that about 3 years so it'd be $50,000.00 a year, was at least...proposal.
Lash: So we can cut it to $50,000.00.
Andrews: They could take 50 now?
Hoffman: Yes.
Andrews: That would leave us, now you said we have about $300,000.00 in cashflow this
year to date? Or is that projected?
Hoffman: To date cashflow you have the exact number there. It's 300 and some thousand.
Andrews: So we're going to even have excess of that
Hoffman: You're going to total out at $350 to $375,000.00.
Andrews: Okay. I guess I would say that we have approximately another $50,000.00 of
excess cashflow for '94 that we could still allocate somewhere else before we dip into our
projected regular $150,000.00 cashflow projection for next year. So we could pick another 50
to go someplace. We know that the school site's going to demand dollars.
Hoffman: I'm just laying low right now for who's going to purchase. We know tables and
chairs and that type of thing, that the City Council will purchase. As far as recreational or...
that's all going to add up. So we're going to have to have some money there.
Andrews: Why don't we double it to $30,000.00.
Manders: At least.
Andrews: That's $15,000.00 more. That leaves us with $35,000.00 more left.
Lash: Should we add another $5,000.00 to TH 101?
Andrews: It's a token but yeah, I think we ought to do that. That leaves us with 30. This
speculative, possible proposal to get somebody to grade and possibly help us improve
63
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Bandimere, I don't know if we want to allocate or even consider allocating any money toward
that but that could be a real nice arrangement. If we could find somebody that's willing to
take half that on or most of it on. I don't know if you'd want to consider putting anything in
the budget for that.
Lash: What do we have left?
Andrews: We've got about 30. Out of excess cashflow. We haven't even talked about really
the, we're sitting at $121,500.00 for '95. So we've got about another 30 to allocate for '95.
Lash: I was looking at that $50,000.00 price tag right off the bat for the Stockdale.
Andrews: Yeah, we're going to be hit for that for 3 years in a row.
Lash: And that hasn't come out of that yet.
Andrews: No, no. I've put that in. That's figured in.
Lash: That is figured in? Stockdale.
Andrews: Yeah. So we've still got 31.
.
Roeser: Put it in Bandimere then.
Hoffman: Yeah Bandimere. If this other thing doesn't come through.
Andrews: We're going to need it someday.
Roeser: Yeah, it's going to happen there.
Hoffman: Something's going to happen there and right now the last figure, hard cost figure
was $800,000.00 to develop Bandimere Park per the concepts which were in the drawings so
that's a million dollars easy. So if you go to a referendum, if you do this open space
referendum and you tag the development Bandimere on there and you say, the city Park
Commission's got $250,000.00. We need $750,000.00 more, that's going to get you a lot
farther than saying, we just haven't planned for it. We've owned it for 5 years...so if you
start chunking away some money, it's going to look beuer.
Andrews: That leaves us with about $30,000.00 more in our typical year planning. We've
been kind of staying at the 150 level for the last several years. $30,000.00 more roughly.
64
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Lash: How about the Minnewashta property out there. Is that going to be coming soon
enough that we would want to have that graded and seeded.
Hoffman: Not this year. Graded and seeded next year which would be '95.
Lash: That's what I mean.
Hoffman: ... '95 item.
Lash: So how much would we need?
Hoffman: It depends on how fast you want to push it in.
Lash: Face it you know, we can't drag our feet on that one. I mean that's been so long in
coming and they're so short out there that once we get that property, we need to try and at
least move forward a little bit each year on it.
Hoffman: The last similar contract for a parking lot grading and seeding was at Herman
Field. That was $50,000.00.
Andrews: Let's kick 25 into that one. Does that make sense? That leaves us with about
$5,000.00 of slush and.
Lash: What if, for this Minnetonka West Jr. High.
Andrews: I think we can stay out of that one, to be honest. I think between the District and
the soccer clubs or whatever, I think they'll fmd a way to get that one done, if it's really
meant to be. To be honest, I think if I were going to try to push something that made sense
for the city of Chanhassen, I'd be trying to convince them to put money into a joint project at
Bandimere. Because if you could get some, if you're going to get the equipment up there to
start the level, you might as well keep going as far as you can.
Lash: But $5,000.00, that's pretty lame.
Andrews: Yeah I know but it's, if you've already got equipment up there, $5,000.00 more
could make a big difference you know as far as the number of soccer fields you could get. It
could be 1 or 2 more just to have that one more day or two more days worth of grading done.
I guess I'd just propose that we tuck the balance away into a general reserve.
Hoffman: What did we just put in Minnewashta development?
65
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Lash: $25,000.00.
Andrews: Actually I'd like to see that $5,000.00 go to Highway 101. I guess I think that's a
pretty minor commitment to say that we're going to go from 15 to 20 but.
Hoffman: Maybe that's something where having that in the budget is a good issue. The trail
is not going to wag the dog out there. The road is going to have to happen in order to put
the trail bed down so our best avenue is to continue to lobby the county and...
Andrews: I was at a meeting with some county officials and it's the same old story. You
know everybody says talk to the guy over here. Although the State is coordinating meetings.
They're talking about planning so maybe something's fmally going to move on it. I know
several of the people that are in charge of the projects are nearing retirement so maybe
they're hoping to go out with some sort of an accomplishment. I don't know.
Lash: What about Stockdale? Is Lundgren grading that for us?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: So...over there, we need to bump some...
.
Andrews: We put 50 in. That's just to buy it though.
Lash: But we only have $5,000.00 left. It's not like $5,000.00 is going to.
Andrews: Throw it into the reserve and we'll find something.
Lash: That or we should bump it back into the school thing.
Hoffman: We're talking about $5,000.00 now.
Andrews: Just put it in the reserve. We'll spend it someplace.
Hoffman: We'll rehash this and put together...establish tonight and see if there's anything left
after that...
Andrews: Thanks everybody for helping to get through that quickly.
66
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENT A TIONS:
Andrews: Are there any Commission Member presentations at this time?
Berg: I've got one. The old Red-E-Mix site. The old cement site. Is anybody else
concerned about the fact that it's turning into a car junk yard?
Andrews: Yeah I am.
Berg: I mean we're talking about what people's impressions are when they drive into this
city. Why are all those junkers out there?
Hoffman: Close to the Hanus building?
Berg: Yeah. Well, quite a ways from it actually.
Hoffman: Yeah, out there on Highway 5 right now. Down farther. It's part of the
arrangement for the construction or reconstruction of that whole district. The HRA made a
deal where they could store those on an interim basis while the...construction. The same
question's been asked at the City Council.
Berg: Because their numbers are multiplying it seems.
Hoffman: I'll ask one of the Council members. Last night the City Council reviewed some
sketch plans on what that would look like. It seems that they're warming up to the idea of
having that as an open space. Walking trail, park like setting. The budget is about
$160,OOO.OO...1andscape and walkways and greenery. That type of thing. So the thought
process of whether or not that should be some sort of commercial is pretty much gone by the
wayside. You'll see it be an extension of that trail overpass as it comes down through there.
Roeser: How about the trail? Is that going to be completed? The one going to Eden Prairie
and the one going toward Chaska.
Hoffman: I had two points of interest. That has been put on hold by the engineering. Water
Resources department. They would now like to complete a detention pond in the far eastern
reaches of the city of Chanhassen. As they did that street plan, they said we're going to do
the pond and then they said, no. We're not going go do the pond so that pond is out of the
program. Now they're saying that we would like the pond so the engineering department is
now going through the DNR permitting process to get permission to dig that pond this winter.
...backing down with a huge backhoe down that trail alignment this winter so if we...
67
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Roeser: What about the one towards Chaska? The Hennepin County park one?
Lash: Yeah, that was my question too. Did that go to Council?
Hoffman: ...and they've cut the new alignment to go around the Deafenbaugh and they will
be putting some gravel down on that so it will be a gravel trail but it won't be blacktopped
until next year. The bad news there. As far as the other trail that Chaska...their City Council
and our City Council budgeting. We drafted a permit agreement with the Hennepin County
Regional Rail Authority and the City Council approved that last night. It was carried over to
the county's meeting this morning. As far as I know, they approved that and we have a
formal agreement with the contractor to come in and perform the work prior to September 1.
Roeser: When?
Hoffman: Prior to September 1. It would be...you can't get people off of 212 so we're
putting it in there and we're effectively barricading it to upgrade it.
Roeser: That's fine. What I was worried about was those guys stopping us somewhere along
the line.
Lash: What about our lack of vote or whatever you want to call it from the last meeting?
.
Hoffman: On the snowmobile?
Lash: Yes.
Hoffman: 3 to 3.
Lash: Has that gone on?
Hoffman: The City of Eden Prairie has positioned themselves that they will not move until
we move. So they're not going to say yes or no to the snowmobiles to make our job any
easier.
Lash: But if we move, it may make an impact on what they decide.
Hoffman: From what I hear City Council's going to send it right back down to me.
Lash: But they haven't made that decision yet.
68
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Hoffman: No. That will be on an agenda, City Council agenda for August 22nd so
everybody will make the big preparations and they may just say, 3 to 3 on the Park
Commission.
Roeser: Oh, they don't know about that yet?
Hoffman: Well not officially. The Mayor knows about it and he said that from a personal
level...
Andrews: That's fine. I mean we did what we could do.
Lash: Well we need to have a full commission.
Andrews: Any other?
Lash: I heard, and I don't remember where I heard this but I heard it went to Chaska and
that they said that they would approve it so.
Hoffman: Well it's going to the City Council on the 8th of August. Their Park Commission
said.. .
Andrews: I just had one issue that looking at the revenue reports for Lake Ann and the
number of comments from people who have used the park about the parking permits, I just
want to comment that my position is shifting and I'm looking forward to discussing that later
this year because I think again, I think Jan you're kind of shifting too with me.
Lash: Yeah, but I'm still waffling I guess. I could live with a compromise.
Andrews: I guess one of the concepts I had is when any mailing goes out to the Chanhassen
residents like the sewer bills or whatever. Whatever every citizen gets, is to send them all a
sticker and say every citizen gets in free.
Lash: Dave and I kind of kicked that around on the 4th of July...won't get into this but we
were wondering if maybe a solution would be that if you're a resident you get a permit. If
you're not a resident, you pay a non-resident fee for a permit or you pay a daily parking fee.
But does that then even pay to have someone be sitting in the booth checking and that kind
of stuff unless the non-resident fee is adjusted.
Andrews: But I think we'd probably have somebody in the booth there anyway. At Lake
Ann at least to watch that park.
69
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.
Lash: See I look at the revenues and I think well, it's something you know. But yet I don't,
and the other thing is we've eliminated kids...have a permit Maybe we need to say if
somebody's rented the shelter and they've already kicked out money for the shelter, if they're
coming in for that, then they're eliminated but you know pretty soon you start eliminating
enough different groups that it doesn't warrant even continuing at all so.
Andrews: We'll talk about it more but I just, reading those comments just kind of, I'm kind
of shifting from the get all the revenue you can to we've got a nice facility. The people of
Chanhassen deserve to use it and I don't think, I personally don't think the citizens should
have to pay to get in anymore.
Manders: Typically we're making up the different for non-resident usage by the fees we're
charging for them to use it.
Hoffman: Philosophically something to bounce around. You can go out and use the city's
lakes, park system. This discussion has gone on for years and years and years. The City of
Minneapolis pays to maintain that thing yet the entire 7 county metropolitan area enjoys it.
So here we're talking in a microcosm of what they're experiencing and they don't think they
can any longer justify the amount of dollars they've put into the city's lake trails system for
all of us to go to enjoy. If we want to...non-residents, the City of Minneapolis may... .
Lash: Yeah but there are a lot of places that you do have to pay. To get into Hyland, you
have to pay and that's just basically...fee or whatever.
Hoffman: City parks, except with the exclusion of beaches, it's all regional where you have
to pay.
Lash: So what's the...
Andrews: Any other presentations?
Hoffman: Issues on the trail and that we have some lobbying for. The City Council, they'll
eventually make the decision. The stretch of trail just west of Byerly's along Powers. So
you go from the new extension of West 78th. Right down the west side of our front street
here and you go up to Saddlebrook, that's where a road should not have been built. It's
bermed up so if we convince them that we needed to put the trail alongside there so they
extended their fIll section to do that and now they're fearful that that is...so they're effectively
surcharging the old material which was underneath there and it's going to...putting in a
$60,000.00 retaining wall and $20,000.00 pipe rail, there's about a $10,000.00 bill to do some
tests where it's a 90 day test where they put some pipes down to test how much that is
70
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
moving. And so it was decided today at a staff meeting to go ahead and do that because
that's... That trail was to be done absolutely June 15th of this year. And now it will not be
done by June 15th of next year. The costs are mounting up to you know $150,000.00-
$170,000.00. Now to do that section of trail down through that area so that's a big buck item
but it's a major thoroughfare. You've got Powers Blvd coming down here into your
downtown.
Lash: And who's having to pay that?
Hoffman: That's their project there. The Powers extension and West 78th Street extension.
Powers extension coming up onto Highway 5. So that's a project cost of the roadway but it
will become an issue before the City Council if you would like to expend those kinds of
dollars. I said absolutely. You did it to make the road. It involves excavating back down
and putting in a geotextile grid material every...would even be necessary. So they put this
grid material down and they compact it underneath and then need to fill upon that...It's all
expensive construction but if you put in a road in the middle of swamp, you have to...
There's always pressure. You know this road project, the road. Well absolutely, you have to
build the road. But trails are still put off to the side without...justify $150,000.00 for a 2
block, 3 block, 4 block stretch of trail.
Andrews: Well keep us posted on what the whispering in the hallway is on that. Any other
presentations? Any highlights? Or we need to approve the Minutes.
AFFROV AL OF MINUTES: Roeser moved, Megers seconded to approve the Minutes of
the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated June 28, 1994 as presented. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Lash moved, Berg seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
71
.
.
.
/rJ
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
AUGUST 23, 1994
Vice Chairman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Fred Berg, Jim Manders, Jan Lash and Jane Megers
MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Andrews, Ron Roeser and Dave Huffman
ST AFF PRESENT: Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor; Dawn Lemme, Recreation
Supervisor; and Michelle Braun, Recreation Intern
VISITOR PRESENT A TIONS: None.
SELECTION OF VENDOR. PHEASANT HILL PLAY STRUCTURE.
Michelle Braun gave the commission an update on this item.
Lash: Mike, since we had your presentation last time, do you want to just quickly bring us
up to speed in a couple of minutes.
Mike Korth: Yeah. I know the two of you were not present last time. I don't know how
much time you've had to go over everything. I can start over and show you the photos.
Saying I don't have to if you don't want me to do that.
Lash: Well why don't you just try and sum it up in a couple of minutes and then if any of
the people have questions, maybe the other commissioners will direct them personally.
Mike Korth: Okay. My name is Mike Korth from Value Recreation. I would like to make
you aware of one omission. Todd put us side by side with Earl F. Anderson in a comparison
that I'm sure helps you out to decide who offers the most play value. On Phase 2, unlike
Phase I where Earl F. Anderson is offering one track slide, on Phase 2 he omitted that.
We're offering our's on Phase 2 as Todd mentioned.
Berg: What page are you on, I'm sorry.
Mike Korth: Page 5. Since that's a major play item, I wanted to make you aware of that.
It's shown on the quote and so forth but it wasn't here. If you're comparing this, you would
have been aware of that.
Lash: Do we have any questions from the commissioners?
1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
.
Berg: I had a couple. I don't know if they're directed to you or to Jerry, whomever. Page
2. Is there any difference, is one better than the other of galvanized steel versus aluminum?
Mike Korth: We offer both but in our opinion we don't like using aluminum because from
our experience in looking at other competitors and our play structures it's proven that
aluminum does not hold paint as well as steel. We look at playgrounds around the state. We
find it very difficult to look at playgrounds that over 3 years old that are still holding paint
well when they're made out of aluminum.
Berg: Are they just as strong?
Mike Korth: Strength isn't a problem. They're not as strong but both of them are overkill so
I don't think strength is an issue on that one.
Berg: Okay. My next question, I guess again Jerry. On top of page 3 with the area
available, it says if it exceeds, I'm assuming approximately 70 x 90, that there may have to
be a retaining wall built. Is that a problem with this bid because it's 71 x 95?
Ruegemer: Fred, I don't know the answer to that question but we can certainly take a look
~~~~~ .
Mike Korth: I talked to Todd about that and he said it was no problem with that.
Lash: So we would not need the retaining wall?
Mike Korth: Well if it needs a retaining wall, we'd be willing to do that but according to
the, if we expand that amount to the north, he said there would not be a problem with that. I
think it was to the south that there would be a problem.
Berg: Yeah, south and east. Okay.
Mike Korth; So Todd didn't mention, you know I went over it with him and I made him
aware of that and he had no concern.
Megers; I have a question on the item below that The border material. Your specification
includes the wood border but is excluding the hardware. Jerry, how much additional cost
would be for the hardware on that?
Mike Korth; The hardware means rebar. You know what rebar is? It's just the stuff that
they use to reinforce concrete. Probably about $30.00. You get long pieces of it and you cut
2
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
off maybe 3 foot pieces and you drill a hole in the timbers and point it down there just to
stabilize the wood.
Ruegemer: ...landscaping supplies typically.
Berg: On the slides on page 4. The phase I and page 5 for phase II. How tall are those?
What's the height?
Mike Korth: Okay, over here on phase I, again if you have a chance to look at your plan.
All the decks have a number on them and their's are the same way. Those the inches off the
ground of that deck. So if you see a slide connected to a 60 inch deck that's coming off of a
5 foot deck.
Berg: Well if it says a 72 inch deck, it's 6 feet.
Mike Korth: 6 foot, yeah.
Berg: Okay.
Mike Korth: On this particular plan, I can't remember what their's is like but they do have
72 inch decks on there. Our's is fully enclosed except for our safest climbing ladder.
Sometimes people are a little concerned about what's connected to a 6 foot deck. It's not
really safe to put a sliding pole, as an example, on a 6 foot deck because the smaller kids that
get up there, there's sort of a gap. It's rather dangerous for smaller kids.
Berg: That was all I have.
Lash: Okay. Any other questions? And I believe last time if we could specify the color and
you said that wouldn't be a problem.
Mike Korth: No, I have a chart that can be used to determine colors and again, I mentioned
the colors on page 16 of the catalogue.
Lash: According to my recollection when we looked at, when we were at Lake Minnewashta
Park. I don't remember who all was there. But we saw the green.
Manders: Yep, and tan.
3
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
.
Lash: Green and tan and we thought that would be really a nice color combo and it's quite
wooded and we thought it would help to sort of blend in a little bit Does anybody have any
objection to that?
Manders: That would be fine with me.
Lash: Okay. If there are no other comments or questions, I guess I would ask for a motion.
Manders: Actually I do have a question. Jerry, was there any follow-up questions or
statements from Anderson's?
Ruegemer: They just, from what I understand, they resubmitted their initial bid without any
changes.
Manders: Okay.
Mike Korth: Can I just have one minute to summarize everything?
Lash: Yes.
.
Mike Korth: Again, our plan meets all CPSC ASTM guidelines and the ADA specifications.
We also met any questions that Todd had in going in and talking with him. In trying to help
you summarize it. What I see in these as far as what we offer with our 8 slides versus 6.
And since that's one of the major, or more costly items on the playground, I think that's
important. We also offer a large climber over here that's a rather expensive item. The total
number of play events, that's climbers and everything combined in the whole plan, we have
35. They have 27. We also offer a bench upon our track light which is a moving piece of
equipment. We have padded decks on each end which is much safer. And at the base of the
slide near the accessible areas, our rubber surface goes all the way to that slide where their's
does not. So a child coming down the slide, again as I mentioned last time, is in the pea
rock or sand, whatever you choose to put there, and on our's, they're able to at least have
access to the wheelchair and get back to their access point to the playground. I guess Todd
chose a couple real high quality vendors and from what I see and what we have to offer,
our's is a better proposal.
Manders: Actually I do have one remaining question. In terms of issues that need to be
resolved such as color, is there any related questions that would have to be answered at this
point?
Mike Korth: I don't see color right now as being a problem. That's something that.
4
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
Manders: Could be decided later.
Mike Korth: Yeah. If you wanted to make the color selection tonight.
Manders: Not particularly, no.
Mike Korth: I can give you the chart and just match up the three colors you want and be
done with it.
Manders: What I'm asking really is there any other related issues like that?
Mike Korth: No. If the colors you want We met the supporters frame and...who was
looking for it, we can get it to you this fall. Other than that I have no other. Thank you.
Lash: Okay. I'd ask if any other commissioners would like to make a motion?
Manders: I would make a motion that we accept Value Recreation's proposal and I don't
know if there's a decision on color that we need to make at this point.
Lash: I guess, I think it's typically done by staff but I think we were in agreement for this
particular site that we thought the green and tan color combination was nice. However it
shakes out for you guys to do it I guess.
Manders: We can recommend that color. Whatever.
Lash: Is there a second?
Megers: Second.
Manders moved, Megers seconded to select Value Recreation's proposal for the Pheasant
Hills Park playground equipment with the recommendation to go with the colors of
green and tan. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Lash: Mike, I'm going to be real honest with you here, and I don't know for sure that any of
the other commissioners were here when we had, I believe it was the Herman Field
playground equipment and another park that we had equipment with you guys and that was
sort of a, at that point in time it was the fIrst time we had ordered from Value Recreation and
Bill Janahosky I believe was the one who gave the presentation and we said because he was
local, we wanted to give him a shot but that we had had a very positive experience with E.F.
Anderson in the past and we said that this is, you know we're going to give you a shot and if
5
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
.
it doesn't go very well, then you know you're pretty much done, and we did have some
problems. And I don't recall what all they were but I think there were some problems with
delivery and I can't remember what all it was. You could find out if you were interested so I
just want to make sure that you understand that again right now. That we don't want to have
any problems with this installation and if we do, then that would be your last shot, okay?
Mike Korth: Okay. Very good.
Lash: Thanks.
SOUTH LOTUS LAKE PARK OPERATIONS.
Michelle Braun gave the staff presentation on this item.
Lash: Do you happen to know if Mr. Melby, besides this copy had a chance to talk to Todd
and does he seem to be content with this?
Braun: I don't know that off hand.
Ruegemer: I think Todd was having problems getting with Mr. Melby and he indicated to .
Mr. Melby that these items would be taken care of and I know Dale has been working on
those to get the items finished. There was concern about down at the beach, the access itself
down where the fence, where his fence ends and there's still a little bit of room to walk
inbetween there. There was another fence stating private property. I don't know if it's past
this point. There will be a sign posted at that location and also the rest of the concerns. I'm
not sure at this point, if they have been done. If the fence for the boat landing, that type of
thing, will be put up again. That was all I believe taken down. I think a truck had backed
into that and I think it was just taken out of there. That will be put in place again and then
as a part of, like Michele said, in cooperation with the Sheriff Department, that will be...daily
basis again.
Lash: So does Mr. Melby seem okay? Did he have other ideas? I know at the end of the
last meeting I asked him if he had any suggestions to give them to Todd. So did they work
together?
Ruegemer: Yeah, I think that's what Todd is trying to do at this point. To work with Mr.
Melby on these types of issues and I think he seems to be pacified with these items and I
believe they'll take care of the problem initially here so.
6
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
Manders: Actually I have one question. Concern as it's stated in Mr. Melby's letter. On the
second page there. Second to the last paragraph where he's talking about surface water
runoff and silt and other contaminants running into the lake. Is that, it seems like water
quality is one of our concerns as a commission and it seems to me if this is happening, as he
has stated here, that that should be addressed.
Ruegemer: Okay. Is he referring to the rip rap area down to the east of the boat landing
itself?
Manders: I guess I'm personally not sure what he's referring to.
Ruegemer: Him and Todd have been talking with Dale. He made that reference too as far as
working on a new filtering system for that and I believe this is right down by the
handicapped parking spot. I believe the engineer's work they were doing at that time was
hoping to filter the water before it went into the second holding pond before it went to the
lake to purify that water just through filtration process. That type of thing. I'm not sure if
that is doing any good. I know Todd's been talking to Dave Hempel, our Assistant City
Engineer...down there because right now it's just a big weed fest down there with all the
weeds and it's growing and it's an ugly sight down there so we can certainly take a look into
. that. Into that concern Jim and get back to you on that.
Manders: Yeah, that would be great.
Lash: Any other questions?
Berg: Yeah, and it's not directly related to this so if I'm out of order, tell me so but because
I missed the meeting the other night with the concern with the, sorry I don't remember her
name. The lady with the home near Rice Lake Marsh with the path. The trail right behind.
Lash: Colleen Deafenbaugh.
Berg: I'm looking here at separating yards with fences and lakes and I'm looking at private
property signs being posted and then I'm hearing that on the other hand we can't extend a l
hedge or some flowers or something to help this person break up their yard a little bit and
give them a little protection from the people on the trail. And not knowing an awful lot
about this particular incident, it seems to me that we're applying almost a double standard
here.
Ruegemer: I'm not so sure if, this isn't a trail down by the lake itself. It's just where, are
you familiar with that area at all Fred?
.
7
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
.
Berg: Not really and.
Ruegemer: Maybe I'll give you a little background on that. Where the boat landing is down
there, there's a old turn around area down there. Just to the right or to the east of that little
turn around area where the handicap parking spot is, there's like a holding pond with rip rap
and everything. Just on the other side, that's where Mr. Melby's fence is. It's a chainlink
fence that extends out up to the north, to the edge. There's a bank about 2 to 3 feet where
the chainlink fencing stops and that's where I believe people have been going onto his private
property right there. Had that chainlink fence been extended right away I think the problems
would have been mitigated right away but.
Lash: Is that the city's fence or is that Mr. Melby's fence?
Ruegemer: I'm not sure.
Berg: Philosophically I guess is where I'm having my problem. If we're extending a fence
or that fence can be protected to his property, why can't we extend a hedge like fence to
protect someone else's property? My understanding from the meeting was that we can't do it
or we didn't want to do it because it would set a precedent. Well, isn't this a precedent too?
Manders: Given the circumstances of the two situations, I guess I don't see the issue. I
understand what you're saying Fred. The situation down at the lake is one of trespassing on
his property where her's I don't see the trespass being the issue because the property that's
the city's is quite wide there and it's a visual trespass if you will as much as anything is what
you're referring to.
.
Lash: Yeah, so far. I mean it could become trespassing for her in the future.
Manders: But with the trail alignment the way they cut that trail in there since, I've been
down there, it looks real acceptable to me. Maybe if I lived there maybe I would see it
differently but.
Berg: Yeah, I see your point and I don't disagree. I think they're both a violation of
pnvacy.
Manders: Yeah.
Lash: I look at getting the gate back up as the least we can do. That was there initially and
it should stay and it should be monitored and it should be locked, the same as Lake Ann is
supposed to be locked at night. But I think in principal you have a good point there. Of
course it was my point on the other item so naturally I agree.
8
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
Berg: I'm not against the action being done for this gentleman at all but I think you look at
cases on an individual basis and not reject it just because it's going to set a precedent. That
now we're going to have to do it for everything. If we want to reject the one down at Rice
Lake Marsh, that's fine. On the merits of it's not appropriate for that person at that place but
I think there's been precedence established with this.
Lash: I guess I'd be interested in seeing who's fence it is. If it's our fence. If we initially
put the fence in, I don't have a problem with extending the fence. If it's Mr. Melby's fence,
I think I'd have a little different feeling. I'm not quite sure but.
Megers: And hold it to...
Lash: Yeah, it is. But I think Fred's got a good point so I agree. I think we need to look at
them individually.
Berg: I don't know if that means there's any recourse for the lady at Rice Marsh. I guess
that's a closed issue too. I don't know.
. Lash: Any other comments? We don't need any action on this do we Michelle?
Braun: No.
PROGRAM REPORTS:
A. TOURING TEENS.
Ruegemer: Touring Teens was a trip that we offered in the summer for 6th, 7th and 8th
graders. Just in an attempt to I guess target that age group again and try to offer some more
programming. This year we offered three trips starting in June. The first trip to St. Croix
was a canoe trip down the St. Croix River and unfortunately I did not have a single person
register for that program. The second was the Beaver Mountain and we had a real low
registration with that too but we did get 11 people to sign up for that. We did decide to go
on that trip just to make it go and give the kids an opportunity to participate in a program this
summer. We did have kids sign up for that already at the end of May already so that was in
July. That trip. The third trip to Trout Air was kind of to see how their operation worked
with a hay ride...that type of thing. That had 2 people register so we're kind of I guess
baffled in a way. We try to offer these types of programs. We try to get kids out just to get
them off the couch or get them away from the house and maybe get them together with their
friends maybe that they haven't seen since school got out for the year. It's summer really
.
9
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
.
seems to be a real difficult time period for us to try to offer programs for kids of this age and
we tried to hit the schools hard. Right before school got out. We constantly did advertising
in the Villager and also in our newsletter. That type of thing. We just didn't get the
numbers we had thought about. And Michelle did get some interesting feedback just from
kids that did go to Beaver Mountain with some ideas that we thought wouldn't go but they
seemed to be real interested and that's going to the zoo and the wave pool or even a movie
and that can certainly be things that we could do during the school year as well. Just get a
bus load of kids and go out to a movie or something in Eden Prairie or Waconia or
Minnetonka. Something like that. It's certainly an idea that we can really take off from.
But you know we're just going to, I think this is an important age group to target and we're
still going to continue. We failed this time but what can we do to improve it and we're
certainly going to go on and continue to offer the programs. Our teen dances are always
popular. Ski trips are always popular. I think that's just because we have a captive audience
during the school year so we're certainly going to continue to look for new ideas and if
there's any ideas that the commission members have, we'll certainly take those and go with
those...
Manders: Have you run into similar interests past summers? I mean is this just a summer
thing that it's.
.
Ruegemer: As far as with trips and that for that age group?
Manders: Yeah.
Ruegemer: We tried, what a couple years ago. A couple years ago and it went some of the
same kind of trips and I changed up a few of them this year but we even gave them different
names and tried to offer them different days, the whole thing and it just didn't take off again.
We would try to schedule around maybe other dates. We stayed away from the later part of
the week because people would be going on vacations or long weekends. We offered the
program on Tuesday this year just because we thought kids would be around a little bit more
and with things maybe not being so hectic in their schedule...get people.
Lash: I'm really surprised. And I wonder if for this age group if transportation is a big
obstacle for them. You know if their parents are both working, maybe they can't get up here.
Ruegemer: Most of the trips, with the exception of the Beaver Mountain, we try to go
somewhat early in the morning. 9:00-9:30 and then we got them the majority of the day so
it's a good opportunity to not have to worry about daycare or baby sitters or leaving the kids
home alone. We really thought that it would work out but.
10
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
Lash: Although 9:00 in the morning could be too early for that age too. I mean you just
don't know for sure.
Berg: And they've got Dial-a-Ride as far as transportation.
Lash: Yeah, that's true. You know did any of them run late enough that you think that
sports could have interfered with it?
Ruegemer: Our fIrst trip was I believe like the 16th of June and we'd go once a month. I
think it was the 16th or 19th or something like that of June and I don't know if that one was
too close to school getting out. Possibly.
Lash: No, but I meant like late in the day. Did they get back too late that they wouldn't be
able to make it. I mean most of them are in some kind of sport.
Ruegemer: Some were like 4:00 or 5:00 but it did get into like 6:00 or 6:30.
Lash: Well I thought of some I know the age range just below this, I think goes up to 12,
some of the things that that age group was going on was what my son was more interested in,
and one was, or maybe it was some other group. I can't remember anyway that was going to
the Apple River and he thought that would really be fun. And the wave pool was one that he
kind of wanted to go on and I wonder if maybe a day's Twins game would be popular. I
don't know.
Ruegemer: I know one thing too just working, I worked on a little bit of a focus group with
the loons this year too and just talking about next season. What they can do to appeal to the
Park and Recreation Departments, that type of thing and they are going to be offering like
day games next year. A limited amount but there still are going to be games. We could
bring in park and rec departments at a really reduced rate. Group rates. Include like a hot
dog, coke and everything and that's certainly going to be an opportunity for next year at a
cheap or reduced rate so it's really going to be a nice type of program that we can get
involved with.
Lash: Well I think we really need to keep trying.
Megers: What kind of access do we have to the schools? I mean we go in and distribute
flyers once we've selected what we want to try but what's the access to get in and ask the
kids what they want to do before we select?
11
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
.
Ruegemer: Not our problem. It's just a matter of going down during lunch or sometime and
do like a little survey.
Megers: I don't know if that would help at all. Maybe that they're giving their initial ideas
and we're buying it.
Lash: Even on the ski trip. On the bus. Ask a few. Mike, do you have a question?
Mike: The only notification that I get of these things is in the paper. I'm wondering how
many kids really read the paper. I mean is this something that is initiated by parents?
Something like this I think you want the kids to initiate it. You know they see it. I don't
know if a lot of these kids are being notified by their parents that these things are even
available.
Ruegemer: Well a lot of times during the school year, that type of thing, we'll go around
during lunch and hand out flyers. That's what we did do a handout to the kids at school at
MIS and also at Minnetonka and also the Chaska Middle School and also St. Hubert's
...Jonathan. So the flyers are going into the kids hands. Whether they bring them home or
not is another story but. .
Mike: Another question. Is there an open gym time for the kids in the summer? Is that
possible?
Ruegemer: In the summer time it's a little bit harder. A lot of the times during the summer
there's maintenance...getting ready for the next school year.
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Mike: ...is there any way that someone could run those and have like certain age groups
could come at a certain time and hit. I would think that would go over with them.
Ruegemer: And seeing our...staff.
Mike: That's what I'm not too sure about. How many guys...
Lash: You know Dave mentioned what, that Leo Lewis Football Clinic too. I want to make
sure we remember about that for next year. Try and see if we can schedule that.
12
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
Ruegemer: Also I'm working on the Twins. Like they had this year too. They had a Twins
camp with the Legion that they put on in June so we're trying to get that back again for next
year.
Lash: Did you have a good turnout for that?
Ruegemer: Oh, incredible. That's one that we had. Because I talked to Jason Minge... and
he came into the office one day and talked about it. He said they had the best turnout in the
midwest. They go around to South Dakota, North Dakota, and Minnesota and do this clinics
and said this is the best turnout that they've had. It was great. The kids were well intent.
Lash: Was it too many do you think? You know sometimes those things when they get to
be too many it ceases to be fun.
Ruegemer: I think he was very surprised.
Berg: Dependent on the age group. The 8 and 9 year olds were thrilled to death and it
didn't matter. My daughter just had a ball. She didn't ever think about there being too
many. I think if you were a little bit older and more sophisticated in your skills, you didn't
get as much of a chance to get the individualized instruction. Half of them were there for the
hot dog and the coke anyway.
Lash: And they gave away something free, didn't they?
Ruegemer: Yeah, I believe they worked in conjunction with the Twins and had...
Lash: You know another thing with this team deal is it's so hard for them, and I'm speaking
from experience here, it' s so hard for them to get their act together and they will not sign up
for something unless they know that about half a dozen to a dozen of their closest friends are
going to go too and they can't, for some reason, seem to get themselves organized enough
ahead of time to get on the phone and call their friends and sort of promote it and you know
then somebody's going on vacation and whatever and they don't know if they can go and
then they just never pull it off because they're so afraid that they'll sign up and then nobodY
that they know will go. That I think that really holds so many kids back. I mean it's nothing
we can do but maybe the underlying problem.
Berg: Maybe when you do something with...if you work through CAA. Not only could you
increase the numbers but then you could make sure that those kids understood that Park and
Rec was doing this, and we do a lot of other things too.
13
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
.
Ruegemer: ...for the most part for that age group haven't been successful in the past either.
You know senior groups yeah, we'll take a couple...
Lash: But a team. You know if a whole team went. They might think that was fun. At
least they'd know somebody was going.
Ruegemer: Yeah, I think that's what they're working on for next year too. Appeal to groups
and associations so.
Lash: Okay. Any other questions or comments? Thanks Jerry.
FALL SOFTBALL UPDATE.
Ruegemer: Fall softball, this is just an FYI for you. It's going to be starting on Thursday
night. We only had 7 teams register this year which is down. We had 14 last year. Or 15
last year, which is down this year. I don't know if everybody's just getting burnt out or too
much to do or what but we're still going to do the league. We'll be starting the 25th, like I
said and going to September 22nd. It's approximately 5 weeks. In fact there's 7 teams here,
not 8. One dropped. Womens and Co-rec leagues, I offered again this year but I had little or
no interest in those at all so...in the future we'll continue the second...so we'll just keep .
offering those types of programs until they catch on. The open league is going to be played...
on Thursdays evening so if you see the lights going until 9:00-9:30 at night out at Lake Ann
Thursday nights, you'll know what it's all about. We'll be starting that already on Thursday
night and going through September so everybody seems to be very interested in playing
again. The teams that are playing out here in the fall and...
Lash: Questions or comments?
CO-REC 11/12 INCH CLASS C STATE TOURNAMENT. LAKE ANN PARK.
Ruegemer: Okay, I just had a meeting with our umpire and chief and tournament director
tonight in fact and we're all set to go for this coming weekend. We're going to be having 43
co-rec teams out here this weekend. Again we're going to be starting on Friday nights.
Friday night this week and then playing all day Saturday and the majority of the day on
Sunday so, the farthest team is coming from International Falls so it should be a lot of fun
this weekend. We're going to have quite a few teams out here and it should be a lot of fun.
There's also picnics going on at Lake Ann so it's going to be a hopping place this weekend.
In case you guys want to get out there and take a look. I can certainly give anybody a
schedule who would like to see what games are going to be played but you can pretty much
have a very good time and catch a softball game. Chanhassen has 3 teams out there this
14
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
weekend so they'll be playing on Friday nights so we'll have our representation out there. So
it's going to be great. A lot of people are looking forward to that and Dale and a lot of the
park maintenance crew are getting the fields into top shape and it's going to be a great
weekend.
Lash: Questions or comments?
Megers: I have a question in regards to when we host a State tournament like that, is there a
benefit to the Park and Rec Department?
Ruegemer: I think the benefit that, what we look at it as a department is that we're all
members, or professional members of our MRP A, Minnesota Recreation and Parks
Association and as membership, I guess my thoughts and I believe it's our department's
philosophy too is that's one way that we can give back too as far as hosting these
tournaments and help out our association. It's a money maker for our association. That's
one way that we can create revenue and maybe help offset some of the other costs that are
associated with our state association. It's one way that we can help out too in that our
department feels good about that and really it's a great way for us to show off our premiere
parks.
Manders: How does this tournament, how does the cost of putting on the tournament offset,
you know just the staff that it takes to run it and the park people.
Ruegemer: The tournament director and the umpire chief and I are paid through the state
association. All the umpires are paid through the association. Basically all those types of
costs are covered through that. Softball, any type of that, those activities. Really the cost
that we incur are having seasonal staff out there to maintain fields during that time and any
type of material. Maybe we use a couple bags of chalk or...so it's not that significant.
Lash: Mike?
Mike: Who does the concession stand?
Ruegemer: Chanhassen Athletic Association. It's a great opportunity for them to make a
little money too for their association.
Mike: Another benefit for the community, those teams hang around all weekend long. I'm
sure some of these local people like Subway and so forth and McDonalds are going to see
increased revenue.
15
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
.
Lash: How about, do they have to buy a parking permit to get in?
Ruegemer: Yes.
Lash: Oh, there we go.
Megers: And I'm sure those people from International Falls aren't driving back and forth
either.
Ruegemer: Yeah, they'll be staying in the area too so.
Lash: Okay. Any other questions?
COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS:
Lash: Let's move on to Commission Presentations. Are there any?
Berg: I don't really have any. I have a couple comments in the Administrative packet but.
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
.
Lash: Okay, we'll move on to the Administrative packet for Fred.
Berg: Just two comments. One, I can't remember the name of the woman again. I didn't
mark it. The lady who was talking of trying to limit the speed limit on Kerber to 30 mph.
Lash: I believe that was Janet Arnold. Previously. There's a new one in here now.
Berg: There's one in here now. I highly endorse that. That can't come soon enough. I'd
like to see it done on Highway 17 as well but anything to discourage traffic on that road as a
cut off and also to, for safety purposes. There's going to be an accident there soon with all
the kids that are on both sides of that street. It's just an accident waiting to happen.
Lash: I don't know that we can do anything about it but.
Berg: No. I just want to be on record as supporting it is all. I know there's nothing we can
do.
16
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
Lash: I wouldn't mind being on record and supporting a speed limit. I don't know that I'd
be thrilled to have a stop sign at every intersection. That'd be a major hassle to get
anywhere.
Berg: My other thing was I guess to Dawn. Looking at the program evaluations for this
summer, what a wonderful compliment. The comment I saw on most of them was, we want
to have more. I thought that was fantastic.
Lash: For the Summer Sunsation?
Berg: Yeah.
Lash: Yeah. It looks like there's quite a demand for that age. Activity for that age range.
Lemme: In the fall we're offering some more opportunities...3 year old classes...there does
seem to be a demand with the early childhood stuff locally.
Lash: I had one question and I don't know that anyone will know the answer but, and I'm
just being curious I guess but in the letter, the fIrst letter to the president of the townhouse
association. On item 5(b).
Ruegemer: Is this regarding the fence?
Lash: I don't know what it's in regard to. That's why I'm asking.
Ruegemer: Where's that?
Lash: It's on page 2 of the letter that Todd's sending back and it's item 5(b).
Ruegemer: I guess I'm confused as to what letter that is.
Lash: The July 20th letter to Mr. Hofer. It looks like the very fIrst thing inside the packet.
Ruegemer: I'm interested in discussing this allegation with you?
Lash: Yes.
Megers: I think he's talking about that they have observed that the city is less than effective
in keeping the park clean and maintained so he's looking for more information as to what his
experience was in that regard.
17
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
.
Lash: Okay. Because I thought that was what he addressed in (a) and so I wondered if (b)
was something different. Okay.. Anyone planning on attending the thing in October? I see
he's got a note on here, who is attending the NRPA Congress in Minneapolis in October.
Anyone interested?
Megers: I'm interested.
Lash: Good for you Jane. So should he sign you up?
Megers: Well I think what he's looking for us to do is select, I certainly can't attend
everything so I'm not sure how that works as far as picking out.
Ruegemer: You can select by days.
Lemme: It is well worth it, even if you go to just go through Exhibit Hall and take
advantage of, even if you can't go, if you sign up for Saturday and you can't go for the
whole day or something, it's defInitely worth your while. I would highly recommend it. I've
been to National Conferences before. They are tops.
Manders: Yeah, I plan on attending. I don't know when and what but. .
Lemme: I think our reservation deadline is September 1, isn't it Jerry?
Ruegemer: Yeah. I think I remember that date.
Lemme: So if you could just let us know by then, we could sign up for a specillc day.
Manders: September I?
Lemme: That's when we have to register by.
Ruegemer: If you're interested in a book too, have you guys seen the book...
Manders: Yeah. It's part of that, isn't it?
Lash: Then I also was wondering, I think it was at the last meeting or the meeting before
that when we talked about, that the Youth Commission needed a representative. We kicked
around different ideas. Do you know if anything came of that?
Braun: Someone...
18
.
.
.
.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
Lash: Oh great.
Ruegemer: Anybody have a chance to take a look at all the picnic evaluations? You see
what the number one problem is out there?
Lash: Parking.
Ruegemer: Parking.
Berg: Parking. Followed closely by people walking through their picnics.
Lash: Well you know, and that was, would that be so hard if we were to get some type of a
sign that we can put out that just says reserved.
Ruegemer: We have a sign out there...
Lash: Okay. I didn't know we had a sign and that was one of the comments. That that
would be helpful.
Lemme: We thought about putting something up at the concession rental building just
saying, for information on how to reserve this park for your picnic, please call...realize it's
been like a paid for thing.
Berg: Are they coming up through the back and cutting like diagonally across?
Ruegemer: The way it sounds, they're coming right up down the asphalt path. Cutting
through the back of the shelter on the opposite side of the wall and going down the, and
walking out the back steps.
Berg: Could we get one of those signs where you put letters on it and just say, reserved for
the Berg family.
Lemme: That's what we've got.
Ruegemer: Yeah, we've got that down below. Down by the concession building with all
three sites...parkview and picnic pavilion.
Lemme: One thing we did talk about doing was having one of those kind of signs maybe
attached to the gate house so that when people come in, the gate attendant thing you'll see,
because a lot of times people will ask, where's the parkview, where's this and...for a picnic,
19
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 23, 1994
.
where's that. Well you see it's at the parkview and having it right at the front gate as well as
the one that's down on the wall.
Lash: Yeah, that would be a good idea. Plus if there some kind of map. One of the
comments was the gate attendant didn't know where it was so at least they'd be able, anyone
in there would be able to read the map.
Berg: Yeah, they shouldn't have to spend the money to reserve the park and then fight
people to maintain it
Lash: It sounds like everybody likes you Jerry.
Berg: What a sweetheart of a guy.
Ruegemer: That's why revenues have increased.
Manders: You got to take credit when you can.
Lash: Any other questions or comments on the Administrative packet? Okay, we need a
motion to, or are there any corrections or additions, deletions to the Minutes from July 26th? .
APPROV AL OF MINUTES: Megers moved, Berg seconded to approve the Minutes of the
Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated July 26, 1994 as presented. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Berg moved, Megers seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
.
20
.
ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION
.
.
KNOW
\
dication
equirements for'
developments
cause new
concem
cas in lieu of the land. Under the
su ivision regulations, cities often
re uire developers to put in place
p lic improvements such as roads,
s wer, and water and then dedicate
ese to public use.
While these regulations are still
permitted, the United States Supreme
Court recently issued an opinion which
requires cities to justify the conditions
imposed on developers. Although the
U.S. Supreme Court was considering
conditions placed on building permits
under Oregon law in Dolan v. City of
Tigard, the same rationale will be
applied to Minnesota cities in deter-
mining that the conditions they impose
on new development are justifiable and
permissible under the United States
Constitution.
In considering what restrictions and
dedication requirements a city may
nder Minnesota law, cities
can require subdividers
requesting platting or
replatting of land to
dedicate land for parks,
public open space, storm
water holding areas or to contribute
Providing Public Finance
Solutions for Nearly
Half a Century
~.
.
.
.
place on new development, it is
important to consider that government
may not require a person to give up a
constitutional right in exchange for a
discretionary benefit conferred by the
government where the property sought
by the government has little or no
relationship to the benefit. There must
be "an essential nexus" existing
between the legitimate state interest
and the permit or zoning condition. If
this essential nexus exists, the court will
then examine the regulation to
determine whether the degree of
exaction under the subdivision regula-
tion bears the required relationship to
the projected impact of the proposed
development.
What does an "essential nexus" and
the "required relationship" mean to
specific cases in Minnesota? In the
Oregon case, the U.S. Supreme Court
Greater Protection-By-Annual Attention
A Proven Yearly Maintenance
Plan For Your Elevated
Watertowers
· Represent issuers on competitive and negotiated
general obligation and revenue bond issues.
· Coordinate capital improvement program
preparation.
· Develop cash flow modeling for capital projects.
· Evaluate refunding and restructuring of
bond issues.
Servicing
Since
· Develop debt management policies.
· Review economic development and
public/private partnership projects.
· Assist in referendum approval of capital
projects.
Municipalities
1921
I I j
Watertower Paint & Repair Co., Inc.
"The Tank With the Red Roof"
Providing dependable service to municipalities since
1921 and offering the experience, skilled workmen,
adequate insurance coverage and the best of equipment
and materials to perform the highly specialized trade of
painting and repairing elevated watertowers. Prompt
service on emergency winter work.
~
SPRINGSTED
PUBUC FINANCE ADVISORS
Interior Inspection By Color
Video Camera Available.
85 East Seventh Place, Suite 100
Saint Paul, Minnesota 55101.2143
(612) 223-3000
Area Code
515-357-2101
Saint Paulo Milwauk..o Minneapolis 0 Kan... CityoWaahington. DC
P.O. Box 67
Clear lake, Iowa 50428
Member of American Waterworks Association
.
found that preventing flooding and
reducing traffic congestion are legiti-
mate purposes. The essential nexus
existed between preventing flooding
and limiting development within the
creek's floodplain. The essential nexus
also existed between traffic congestion
reduction and providing alternate
means of transportation such as bicycle
paths.
In Minnesota, cities should be able to
meet the essential nexus requirement
by enforcing their present subdivision
regulations as they have in the past. In
general, the essential nexus test would
be met if the city has a legitimate
public purpose in reducing the
negative effects of development and
the regulations are geared to merely
reducing these negative effects.
However, the second question may
be the more difficult one to answer in
determining whether the required
condition bears the proper relationship
to the projected impact of the pro-
posed development. The city must
have findings sufficient to justify the
conditions imposed through the
subdivision regulations. There must be
a "rough proportionality" between the
city's conditions as they relate to the
impact of the development. No precise
mathematical calculation is required,
but the city must make some type of
individual determination that the
required dedication is related to the
proposed development's impact. This
determination must consider both the
nature and extent that the condition
will impact the proposed development.
The United States Supreme Court
views this test as "a reasonable relation-
ship" test. This is the same standard
that the Minnesota Supreme Court has
applied in approving subdivision
regulation and exaction. In theory, the
regulations Minnesota cities impose
meet the U.S. Supreme Court standard,
because they have met the reasonable
relationship test used by the Minnesota
Supreme Court.
However, the U.S. Supreme Court
requires findings by the city to show the
reasonable relationship between the
city-imposed condition and the
proposed development. Minnesota
courts have not previously required
cities to have written findings justifying
the conditions imposed or to articulate
the specific reasons the conditions are
required.
.
.
Cities must now be able to specifi-
cally articulate their reasons for
imposing conditions on any particular
development. Certainly, standards
stated in the subdivision regulation will
give guidance for the need of requiring
public dedication for necessary public
improvements and open space. But
cities will be required to articulate and
justify the particular street, park land,
sewer, and water conditions proposed
on particular developments.
. Minnesota courts have also been
requiring cities to make clear their
findings in zoning matters, so the U.S.
Supreme Court's requirement for
findings should not be that onerous to
cities. Proving the need for specific
development dedication requirements
also should not be very difficult for
cities. This new zoning requirement is
somewhat analogous to cities having to
prove special assessments for individual
lots, and show that the burden imposed
on the property owner does not exceed
the benefit granted by the city's action.
Arguably, the same standard will be
applied in determining that the burden
of the subdivision requirement does
not exceed the benefit to the develop-
ment by the'subdivision requirements.
In the Oregon case before the U.S.
Supreme Court, the city did not
attempt to make any individualized
determination to support the require-
ment that the landowner leave 15
percent of her property as open space,
and dedicate a public greenway in the
flood plain when a private greenway
could also have been an effective flood
control measure. The city also failed to
meet its burden of demonstrating that
the additional number of vehicles and
bicycle trips generated by the develop-
ment was reasonably related to the
city's requirement for the dedication of
a pathway easement. The Court stated
the city must quantify its findings
beyond a conclusory statement that the
pathway dedication could offset some
of the traffic demand generated by the
development. (See also Legal notes,
page 26.)
Under these guidelines, Minnesota
cities must be able to state with some
particular specificity, the reasons for
requiring subdivision dedications and
regulations to particular development
proposals in order for their actions to
be constitutional.
Carla Heyl is senior staff attorney
with the League of Minnesota Cities.
A PREVENTIVE
APPROACH TO
PUBLIC LAW.
Anticipating problems is a critical aspect of
our government practice. Our attorneys
assist clients in applying strategies to
minimize risk and avoid liability. We
serve public clients with sensitivity toward
costs and with a desire to help governments
function more effectively. Call Suesan Lea
Pace for more information.
612 333 4BOO
POPHAM .HAI K
SCHNOOR_eM '. KAUFMAN, LTD.
zzz .aUTH NINTH aTREET, .UITE 3300
MINN~APOLI.t MN 55"'02
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
.
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
August 18, 1994
John F. Connelly
900 Saddlebrook Curve
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Dear Mr. Connelly:
Mayor Chmiel has forwarded your letter of August 2, 1994 regarding concerns about traffic
control on Kerber Boulevard. I have forwarded a copy of your letter to the City Engineer
regarding the issues of lowering the speed limit and installing stop signs at cross walks, as that
lies within his venue.
We will continue our enforcement efforts along Kerber Boulevard, and I have assigned it to the
special traffic enforcement detail as well. The increased visibility usually helps to get the speed
down to the posted limit, if not below.
.
s~
Scott Harr
Public Safety Director
SH:eb
cc: Mayor Don Chmiel
City Engineer Charles Folch
Park & Rec Director Todd Hoffman
g:'i>afel y\5h'conne lIy.lu
.
0'
DID; \ C/;5 /~~~ ~
August 2, 1994 ~ 1 f: ~ rrvY' I
()'\ 0J
First of all, I would like to laud the efforts of those responsible for the continuous development and
improvement of the Chanhassen City Parks. A quality park system, well planned and expertly
implemented, is obviously a priority in a growing community like Chanhassen.
Mayor Don Chmiel
7100 Tecumseh Lane
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Dear Mayor,
.
However, I would like to point out a significant defect in the park system. One that could be
detrimental to the enjoyment of 3 parks, and worse, is a serious potential safety hazard. This
defect is the ~ ~ control m Kerber Boulevard. Allow me to elaborate on a few points:
1. The speed limit on Kerber is 40 mpb all the way from W. 78th Street to Powers Boulevard.
This is certainly inappropriate considering all the adjacent property is either recreational
park land or residential developments. When Kerber was a two-lane county road cutting
through farm and pasture land, the speed limit of 40 mpb was quite appropriate. But
Kerber now qualifies as a "parkway", and speeds of 40 mph pose a definite hazard to the
users of the adjacent park land and walkways, and also at the entrys to several residential
developments.
2. Even with a speed limit of 40 mph, traffic at times travels much faster on Kerber, up to 55
mph. Kerber is not a "through highway" but rush-hour travelers use it as such. Powers
Boulevard, a quarter-mile to the west, and with a speed limit of 50 mpb, should be used
when motorists wish to reach Highway 5 quickly. Even though Powers is a through road,
note that as you travel north on Powers, the speed limit is cut to 30 mph where it enters a
residential section of Excelsior. An improved traffic control method for Kerber, and hence
downtown Chanhassen, should include some specific steps to avoid routing high volumes of
high-speed traffic through what promises to be an excellent and attractive city center.
.
3.
There are no stop signs or marked crosswalks (except at Cban Elementary) to allow
pedestrians, bikers, and others safe access between the parks and the residential
developments. This becomes especially dangerous when you watch the high-speed passing
of turning cars in the right (parking) lane.
As a citizen of Chanhassen, proud of efforts to make this an excellent community, but seriously
concerned for the safety of park users and pedestrians, I would like to propose the following:
A The speed limit on the entire length of Kerber Boulevard be lowered to 30 mph.
B. Stop signs and crosswalks be installed at each intersection along Kerber Blvd., to control
the speed of traffic, and to allow safe passage of bikers and pedestrians to and from
sidewalks and parks.
I believe these proposed items fit very well with the efforts already underway to make this city 1
corridor a: peaceful, pleasant and safe improvement to our city parks system.
I encourage the members of the city council, and othen involved in city planning, to recognize the
issues I have raised as serious, and to take the actions within their power to address those issues
before a tragic accident occurs.
.
Thanks and Regards'--.Jb/IJ.I t=( ~
John F. Connelly I
900 Saddlebrook Curve
Chanhassen, MN 55317
PhonZ11383
(}C'J/~ r!,
yj~ W"
--
-------
r
Vol. 7, Issue 50/34 . )
Thursday, August 25, 1994
P.O. Box 99, Chanhassen, MN 5531 7
(75' newsstand price/free to postal custome
CAR-R r SIJf' r
L: 11 Y [)~ [:W,',
ArrN: PA~K & R~CR~ArrDN
pc, BOX 1',7-F
fi rc:~~r::~:~~~ ~ _~__~~~ ~.~~:~: \
L- ,..... ...... nat" ,... _ _ .... 4l....1.
r
**
B Z'c'
.
!
"he Chanhassen
-
i
I
~ Snowmobile trail raises concern
By Dean Trlppler
It may be a muggy August. but
local snowmobilers are looking for-
ward to a snowy, cold December.
Riding a snowmobile on desig-
, lI8led trails may be just fine to some,
bat the Chanhassen City Council
found Monday Dlght that opinions dif-
fer.
The Southwest Metro 'lml Ass0-
ciation has requested the city approve
the use of the abandoned railroad
right-of-way south of town as a snow-
mobile trail linking Chanhassen with
Chaska. A Chanhassen Pall< 8IId Rec-
l'CIIion Ccmmission meeting in June
produced a number of concerns by
raidenlS, and a stalemale on the com-
mission as to whalto do.
LeRoy Bileler of the snowmobile
tp'Oup told the council Monday night
that the Chaska Pari< and Recreation
Commission has approved the IISe'Of
the rail right-of-way for
anowmobiling. Eden Prairie, however,
. has tumed down the request citing
new grass seed near We Riley
parkland.
Biteler 8ddressed the Objections
Jaised in previous .-ings. Objec-
'Trail
tions included Cllviranmenla1 impIcls,
lIOise, uespusing and lncomp8lible
use, lIlIong Olhers.
Biteler said anowmobiles are
much quieter now than in the pest and
he produced decibel levels he said
bore him out. ,As for nUning vegeta-
tion, a snowmobile exerts less pres-
sure on the vegetation than a human,
he said. plus, the snowmObilers will
bCbn a trail a~ used for walking
IIId biking. As for mcompetible uses,
Biteler said the trail was 15 to 17 feet
wide, allowing enough room for
lIlOWlIlObilers and ~ sid-
~Swen.d. forexlll\Ple, said that
when he wants to go canoeing or
cross-counlly skiing, be packs his
slUff up and goes elsewhere. He said
snowmobilers can do the same.
Willard Halver said be has bad
many instanceofindividuals chuck-
ing rocks from the old rail line at his
bouse. He said be wasn't against
snowmobiling. but cautioned that en-
forcement along the trail needed much
better attention.
And Joe Kandiko said that the
hours of snowmobile use don't coin-
, cide with family hours. He said that
when skiers ar oIher individuals are
on trails tbey give way to the
snowmobilers, Dot the OIher way
_d.
Biteler said a curfew could be
placed on the trail and the sn0wmo-
bile club could pmticipate in the en-
forcement of the nales.
On the snowmObilen' side, Bo)'d
Pelenon said he has no problem WIth
the trail being in front of his bouse.
And as for environmental impacts,
trains have been using the line for
years, he said.
"Sure there are some t.d apples,"
_U.Hd fNm front
be Did referring to tbose
snowmobilers who do cause prob-
lems, "but everybody bas a ri&bt to
the trai1." ,
.' On the city end. Dave Huflinan
from the par\< and reaeation commis-
sion said the main problem the com-
mission had was the dual use of the
trail. With six commission members
in \ate June, the commission tied 3-3
011 allowing the use of snowmObiles
011 the trail, he said. He requested the
_cil n1Ie on the use, adding that if
cross-counlly skiing will be a use and
the trails are groomed for that,
~Obiling cou1d be problematic.
Todd Gerbanlt. assisatl cil;y man-
..... said that Hennepin Parks, which
governs the trail, puts the responsi-
bility for deciding the use of the trail
on local governments. Hennepin
Parks this SlIIlIIIIer opened the trail
tom Hopkins to Cbanbassen's Bluff
Creek area. The city is completing the
trail from that point to Chaska.
Council member Colleen
Dockendorf said that ~Obiling
and bunting are two of the activities
that are diminishing in the powin&
suburb of CI\anhasSen. She felt that
the city should ay a trial nm with the
trail this winlerwith tIleprovillon that
acurfew be enforced and a speed limit
maintained. ' I. '
Mayor Don ClImiel said fle lives
011 a SIiowmobi\e lOIIte and has'bad
IIIOWllIObiles enc:roacb 01\ hisi pro!>" '
ert)'. He supported -mng the.issue
beck to the par\< and rec:reatioft tom-
mission. Council member Richard .
Willi agreed with sending the' issue
beck and asking Hennepin.PadIs.to
.. the use on the trail. .
Council member MikeMlISon
wanted to see more information. '1IlCh
as who is liable if anyone lets huh on
the trail. He said he wass~ ,on the
fence at this point. ,':, .
And council membert-tarl< SCmt
agreed that Hennepin Parks should be
cOnsulted. SelIn said he has.also lived.
on a trail and has experienped those
who don't ride c:onscienti111y, ~
he added, that goes with ! recre-
IIionaI activities. - ,
"I'd rather see a ~ive
approach," he said.
The _i1 agreed to tuit the is- .
_ back to the par\< and recreation
ClOIIIIIIiIsioD. ~ ~
'11
.. ar waiken enough room. He pre-
_led a petition signed by more than
100 individuals, both along the trail
and away Iiom the trail, favoring the
proposal. .
"Our members work hanlto keep
this club active in the community," he
said. "We're providing a service for
JlI registered snowmObile owners in
the area. Snowmobiling can be a fun,
exciting family sport. I'd like to keep
this as a family sport and keep it in
Cbanhassen as long as ~ible."
Cbarles Littfin, president of the
club, said he has aeen lilrouBb the
years die trails designated for
IIlOWlllObiling diminish. He said the
club provides a service by acquiring
permission to use land for trails and
maintaining the trail sySlem.
"We want to be psrl of the com-
munity, cd to do that we need the
trails," he said.
Some residents along the trail,
though praising the club for being
conscientious and responsible in its
approach to snowmobiling, did not
think the trai1 should be used far that
TRAJLto~ .
, ~. I ".
)~..
0...
)J..
0...
)J..
:,)...
JJ..
0...
. . ,
_~~!~;~~~;LJlt ~::.11b'~bJ.) : -, I'::, ~l;;:~'i: I ~ ::1('1f/; -''-0 lli~rrf b"':'1l'tid~ri:-d: ~:.:)'::lT;) oJ ,iris ~ l.iN ..~--.~ ~...J_q 11.. i i
. - I'N .6~ 0 ~ ~"" ''II (;.1) .. ..... . .
.
.
Hennepin Parks should set trail use
Editorial
Monday night provided another example of how
residents of a growing area find the freedoms they
once enjoyed on the brink of drying up.
The issue was snowmobiling and the use of the
old rail line to the south as a trail this winter.
Snowmobilers said noise and environmental impacts
have lessened through the years with responsible
groups policing and maintaining the trail system.
Residents want to be left alone. They bought their
houses for the peace and quiet.
So, along with hunters in ehanhassen,
snowmobilers, too, are feeling the pinch of residen-
tial development. .
People have moved here in the past to get away
. from the city or iMer ring suburbs. They like the
quality oflife of the "small town." And as more and
. more people feel that attraction, naturally the things
.
\
.that brought them here in the first place tend to
<:hange to accommodate more people of ~e same
mind.
It is a shame that the snowmobilers united to-
gether have to tight to keep their sport alive here.
On the other hand, the residents along the proposed
snowmobile trail should have the right to live in
peace.
There's no wiMing this one from the city's per-
spective. That's why it was a good move to have
Hennepin Parks, which established the trail in the
farst place, make the call on bow the trail should be
used.
DeaD Trlppler
. ,
WILLL-\M MAKELA
Government structure
The Elk River city council has
established a four-year term for the
position of mayor.
Ordinances
Preston has passed an ordinance
regulating tobacco advertising in the
city. It limits advertising to two small
signs that list only the brand name,
description, tar and nicotine content,
and any warning labels required by
federal law. It does not allow any logos,
pictures, or figures on the signs. The
ordinance also restricts in-store
advertising on clocks, clothing, and
elsewhere. The city modeled its
ordinance after one Brooklyn Center
worked on several months ago, but has
not yet adopted because of concern
over legal challenges from the tobacco
industry. To the best of our knowledge,
this is the first such ordinance adopted
by a Minnesota city, and possibly the
first adopted anywhere in the United
States. Preston was on the cutting edge
of tobacco sale regulation once before
in 1988, when it was the first city in the
state to mance'
ci te sales fr ending machines.
ar and recreation
oters in Lake\ille approved a
75 million bond issue for new
parks Funds raised "
finance restorations and improvements
to many of the city's parks and trails,
and will build 7.5 miles of new trails
and a 50-acre athletic complex for
baseball, softball, and soccer. All are
projects the city's park and recreation
task force recommended.
Residents of Woodbury also voted in
fa\'or of a bond issue for park improve-
ments. Proceeds from the $7.8 million
bond issue will improve 14 neighbor-
hood parks, buy more park land,
develop an 80-acre recreation complex
with a variety of soccer and ball fields
and other facilities as well, and build an
indoor ice arena and field house. The
improvements will cost a total of $9
million.
[.
r ( I -, -i (
t ACTIVITI ~S
Lakes
Shoreview has completed installation
of a lake augmentation pipe project,
designed to allow release of water from
the Mississippi River into Snail Lake, in
eastern Shoreview. Maintaining Snail
Lake's water levels has been problem-
atic for decades, the result of an
unusual seepage problem allowing
water to leak out through a seam in the
peat lake bed. Until now, regulatory
officials have allowed use of groundwa-
ter to maintain a sufficient lake level
because of the uniqueness of the
problem.
Fire protection
The La Crescent city council and the
La Crescent town board have approved
bylaws for ajoint powers agreement for
administration of the city-township fire
department. The new bylaws delegate
nearly complete authority over person-
nel matters to a seven-member joint
powers fire board made up of city and
township representatives. The city
council retains final authority over
dismissal of firefighters, howe\'er. A
1988 joint powers agreement between
the city and township established both
the city-township department and the
. . towers board. The agreement
expires' 1998.
The Bla e-Spring Lake Park.
Mounds ~ ew fire department, which
has flr oed fire protection to the
e cities as an independent contrac-
tor, has entered a new and different
contractual agreement with the cities.
Although still an independent depart-
ment operating under contract, it will
function more like a municipal
department on budgeting and financial
matters. The department has turned
over its property, including equipment
and buildings, to the cities, which in
turn will lease the property back to the
department. The agreement specifies
that the department will serve as the
sole source of fire protection for the
cities over the next 10 years. The
volunteer department is celebrating its
50th anniversary this year.
Law enforcement
In the latest round of federal
funding for community policing
.
programs, four Minnesota cities
received funding. Columbia Heights
received $368,383, Moorhead received
$351,567, and St. Paul and Minneapo-
lis both got around $750,000. Each city
will use its grant to hire additional
police officers. The U.S. Justice
Department supplied the grants. Local
funding will pro\'ide matching dollars
toward improved community policing
efforts.
VVaterJuvastewater
In May, Paynesville put on line two
new production wells. Each well is
rated to pump 500 gallons per minute.
The cost of this project was $128,000.
The city is presently involved in a $1.6
million infrastructure sewer rehabilita-
tion project. Funds for this project
were a $300,000 grant from the
Minnesota Department of Transporta-
tion and a $498,000 loan from the
Farmers Home Administration. Finally,
a pre-aeration treatment pond is '
planned for late summer to handle
BOD loadings from local industries.
The estimated cost of this project is
$600,000.
Public works
Cosmos had a special election in
June, with voters approving two closely
related questions on the ballot. One
question asked to amend an existing
ordinance regarding the designated
use of the city's public works reserve
fund principal. The second question
asked whether $75,000 of the principal
in the fund could be used for a
purpose other than that for which the
fund was established. The city pro-
posed to use the $75,000 to promote
economic development. Minnesota
statutes require a city with a public
works reserve fund designated toward a
specific improvement to hold an
. election on the question of using the
funds for some other purpose.
Transportation
In Stillwater there's a new trolley
service. Two trolley cars provide a
shuttle service between a parking lot at
the city's north end, where parking is
plentiful, and the south end, where
parking is a problem. The two trolleys
.
.
~,
:"::..~ ..~.~. .~~'~~-~e..:.:..:'E'~:.:.;,;;'::"::'. <:;. :-!-:':-!..:~:,:,::,:,.;::c~~";.:~~~:~"_:.-;',.._ ~,:":':'-,__'~";":.':-::'_._
r,'r~t. "-:t.~'C:'1 ~ ~:1 ~: A~_i':'~'_
--.........
)
.
.
C ITV OF
CHANHASSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Captain Ron Holt
Scott Harr, Public Safety Director ?"
September 6, 1994
FROM:
DATE:
SUBJ:
Chanhassen Detail Request
I have been asked to arrange for the deputie I the South Lotus Lake gate at 2200 hours
and open at 0630 hours daily. I have advis, the P ., & Recreation Director, from whom this
request comes, that we will do our best to 45mply wftb this detail, but that there will be times
that the squad is involved with other mQ{k,' urgent m~~rs and there may be a delay in their
response if they get to it ~t all on tha~ da "(By copy of ~s m~mo I ~ill recomI?end to o~r Park
& Rec Department that If the depuue e unable to get~ thIS detall by the tlme the CIty has
park maintenance personnel on dut~y nd someone comesV~... the offic: during business hours to
request that the gate be opened, . t the Park & Rec Department aSSIgn someone to run down
and open it). \.
We will appreciate~~!,~~~~~ tx:il1~ c~~nsid:redthrOU~gh~utl~~ year. If you have any questions
or concerns please 'contBct:fmeY.'~alfze,lliamniSfJSt'itllin:cdn~enience, particularly during times
when we are shqrt'personnel~;solfeeEftee~t():'1et.meikDpw)jf1his:, . Thank you.
~~~
cc: Don Ashworth, City Manager
Todd Hoffman, Park & Rec Director
Sergeant Larry Wittsack
Bob Zydowsky, Public Safety Officer
. g:\ufely'6h'solotJlk.mem
. ' .
\
C ITV OF
CHANHASSEN
~
"
-
-
0'
.
.
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O.. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
TO:
Park and Recreation Commission
~
~,
MEMORANDUM
FROM:
Todd Hoffman, Park 'and Recreation Director
DATE:
August 18, 1994
SUB]:
South Lotus Lake Operations
In response to Mr. Melby's concerns which h~~sc~ssed with the commission on August 8,
1994, the following items have been initiated:}' \..
;t~, ~~i
The chain link fence separating the lark and ~: Melby's yard will be extended .
towards the lake.:::> 'ii;
m, ~*,
A private property sign will bepb'Sted at this loc\ijon.
, ~\
The boat access entrance .~ilte' is being repaired fof~installation.
,.f.~<"'/. . ,.
The Public Safety1:>,ePartment, in cooperation with the Carv~ County Sheriff's
Department, \VUl ~'asked to assume responsibilities 19, operation of the gate.
,~-;.,-,;,,:;'r-':~~'$_:-t2,,:.:t;~:,"}1.3titf;~iS::t~:;::~>~;-.L,:::'~::~':-~t~~}i*'~~:~~1~~5;
If the ~Qmmissi~1!jY-ould .like.the.department'~"",~~j~~:!E~ol1.in.tlrl.$ ~ ar.cl! please let
me know. ........:;;,~j>,.. --_.,..,.......-..'.. \.
"-.:~:':~ti.~-:?,.,~.~.,
._.....~~!.."!7v:i:t;.:;'(\
'\;;c' pJ;":~:~:;~1t::
pc: Jack Melby, 40 Hill Street, ChanhasseP, ~"SS317
D~ Greg.ory, Park Superintendent \';' ~"
~oJt Harr, Pu . . ,
AfWalllil,-Carver County Sheriff
~/,#- -4-,~
#CV'Tj~ 7 h:~~e~;:~.
/V ~.-C:- - '(T
:f(t2W' d1 L
.." .~ 0"
- / ~~.
VI" tJv~~' .I _.' :
~~~
.
Minutes of Youth Commission Meeting
Saturday, August 27, 1994
Chanhassen City Hall
Senior Citizen Center
.
The meeting was brought to order at 12:30 pm by Youth Commission Advisor, Jeanne Straus. Those
present: David Kocka, Rich Lambert, Lori Wellens, Kathy Wellens, Matt Kearney, Jason Thompson,
Cathryn Campbell, Kerry Holtmeier, Bob Kraemer, Phyllis Lindstrand, Susan Hurm, Pat Donnay and
Jeanne Straus. A brainstorming session on goals for the 1994-1995 year was held. Results are as
follows:
1. More involvement on city matters which affect youth.
Youth on the Arts Council?
2. Expand Youth Commission to K-12.
3. Conduct a Youth Needs Survey
4. Talk to elementary student councils for input (in order to serve K-12)
5. Work on Public RelationslRecognition of YC by public
Host a "Heart of the Hawk Show"
Yearbook (get 2 pages on YC - Bob K will help)
6. Host seminar on racism/respect. Have classes discuss.
Network with the TNT group from West St Paul
YC talk to elementary students on racism
Host cultural diversity during Values Week
7. Begin New Student mentor program
8. Research possibility of doing Youth Resource Directory
9. Look into state wide youth organizations
10. Network with other Youth Groups
11. Meet with the Eden Prairie Youth Group. (Cathryn will look into.)
Results were recorded on the flip chart by Kristin Jendro. Thanks Kristin for your help!
The elections process was opened by Vice Chairperson, Phyllis Lindstrand at 1:07 pm.
First matter of business: Should we have a position of "Treasurer" on the Youth Commission.
MotionlLori Wellens and Second/Jason Thompson to add a position of Treasurer to the Youth
Commission. It was noted that the By-Laws will need a change with a 2/3 approval by the yc. After
discussion, the motion was carried.
Nominations were opened for the position of Chairperson. MotionIDavid Kocka and Second/Kathy
Wellens to nominate Lori Wellens. Nominations were closed and the group cast a unanimous vote for
Lori as Chairperson.
Nominations were opened for the position of Vice-Chairperson. Jason Thompson, Susan Hurm and Matt
Kearney were nominated. After brief speeches, a vote was taken. Matt Kearney was elected as the Vice-
Chairperson.
.
Nominations were opened for the position of Secretary. Cathryn Campbell, Bob Kraemer and Kristin
Jendro were nominated. After brief speeches, a vote was taken. Bob Kraemer is the new secretary.
Nominations were opened for the position of Historian. Phyllis Lindstrand and David Kocka were
nominated. After brief speeches, Phyllis was elected as the Historian.
.
The duties and responsibilities of Treasurer were discussed. Treasurer would serve on the executive
committee, give a written and oral report at the monthly meetings and request the issuance of checks
through the Community Education Administrative Assistant, Lois Riesgraf.
Nominations for the position of Treasurer were opened. David Kocka, Kerry Holtmeier, and Cathryn
Campbell were nominated. After brief speeches, Kerry Holtmeier was elected as the Treasurer.
Congratulations to the newly elected Youth Commission Executive Committee.
Chair Lori Wellens
Vice-Chair Matt Kearney
Secretary Bob Kraemer
Historian Phyllis Lindstrand
Treasurer Kerry Holtmeier
At this time, materials on member selection processes were distributed to YC members for review prior
to the September 14th meeting.
If you have not received your 3-ring notebook and the materials for the 9/14 meeting, please pick
them up at Jeanne's office in the Early Childhood Center located at 110600 Village Road. Ca1l368-
3686 to pick those up.
.
Youth Commission meetings will be held on Wednesday evenings at 7:00 pm in the North Board
Room of the Early Childhood Center. The Vice-Chair is in charge of reserving the room.
Motion/Katy Wellens and Second/Pat Donnay to adjourn the meeting. Meeting adjourned at 1:46 pm.
Respectfully sybmilted,
'=BiYk-
Bob Kraemer, Secretary
August 27, 1994
ce
.
.
.
.
Matter'l for future di'lcu'l'lion.
.. ..
1. Survey of youth about teen activities. Present to Chanhassen Park & Rec.
2. Mentoring new high school students.
3. A Paint-A- Thon
4. Age limit for Youth Commission members.
5. Grant writing to Womens Defense Fund and to Arts Council
6. Need a City of Carver Adult representative
7. Judy Colby, coordinator of senior programs in Chanhassen, shared an idea for an intergenerational
project between teens and senior citizens. Teens could help seniors with spring cleaning, lawn mowing,
etc. Seniors could be resources to teens on term papers and speak in classrooms. Jeanne asked the youth
members present to share their thoughts on this type of project. Comments were positive. Judy Colby
will be contacted to come and address the group at a future meeting.
8. The Annual Report must be completed as soon as possible. Please write a maximum of one page on
the following topics to be included within the Annual Report.
Holiday Gift Drive Natalie
Rake & Walkathons Natalie
St. Catherines Leadership Farrah
MCEA Conference Shannon
MSBA Danyelle
9. Youth Commission members are encouraged to apply for positions on the Minnesota Youth
Advisory Council initiated by Governor Arne Carlson. Application forms are included in the 3-Rring binders. Please get those in soon.
....
CI)
:i
eo
;.3
'a
~
c:
o
.-
CI)
CI)
.-
E
E
o
U
-5
::s
o
>-
"8 CI) 0
1-0 1-0 "E e: CIS e: ::s ?: 1-0 '-: .... c:
CIS "8 0 0 0 'C 0 0 1-0 c.. 0
"8 1-0 ~ ..t:l cd 0 cd CIl 0 ':;j U ..t:l o .... CI)
0 CI) cd cd E 0 U c: 0 CIl CIS CIS E c: ..c: > CIS 1-0 CI) 1-0 0
cd ..c: cd 0 'C ~ cd l:O cd 'C U CIS 'C cd 1-0 CIS ::s .... 1-o..c: 0 CIS 1-0 '(;
0 ..c: ~ 0 1-0 ..c: ..c: ~ u 0 E ~ 0 ::s ClSU .... ..c: 0 U >-
u 0 0 > 0 '2 ..c:
l:O cd U ~ ..c: ~ U ..c: a ~ ~ ~ U 0 U.... u c: ~ U ~
~ ... ... ... ~ ~ -
0 ..c: u u u u u ::s U eo.., CI) CIS uJ CIS
'0 - ... 0 eo.., u ~ U en c:: eo.., en ..c: ~ eo.., ..c: ~ E >- ..c: 1-0 U o CIS a ..c: CIS U c:
~ 0 0 en 0 ~ 0 ~ S:2 ~ 0 ~ U U
0 en < - ::s - ~ - < c.. < '61
..c: ~ ~ ?; U "0 ?: U ?; E ~ ::s ?;U U U
u U U uJ U U U 0 U -0 uJ u>- uJ uJ 'C
en U cG >- >- U >- > >- >- >- >- >- U >- c.. >- U < U U >- >- U >- 0
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
< ... ... 1>- < .>- < < < :>- I oCt :>- I oCt :>- I oCt oCt 1:>- oCt oCt I oCt oCt oCt 1 oCt :>- oCt !:>- 1:>- oCt !:>- oCt
- ....... ......
c
0 ~
...
-a \0
~ M
... I
V"l
~ I~
~ \0 0 - ~ V"l 0\ ~ ~ 0 \0 V"l 0\ M M M V"l V"l 0 ~ M 0 0\ M M
= V"l 0 V"l 0 ~ r- 0 00 0 - \0 M M 0 ~ ~ \0 - ~ V"l ~ ~ 0 0
0 M r- oo M \0 r- r- \0 0\ 00 ~ r- V"l - - M 0 V"l - M r- - \0 \0
-a M 00 ~ ~ M M ~ M - M ~ ~ r- ~ r- - \0 - \0 V"l - - V"l V"l
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
00 00 00 \0 ~ 00 ~ 00 r- ~ 00 M 00 M 00 0 00 - 00 00 ~ 0\ 00 00
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I~ ~ I~ ~ ,~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I~ ~ ~ ~ ::t: I~ I~ ::t: ~
00 00 00 - 00 r- r- r- r- \0 \0 00 \0 V"l ~ 00 00 00 V"l r- r- ~ ~ 00
- - - M - - - - - 00 00 - 00 - V"l - - - - - - ~ ~ -
.9 M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M
V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l
N V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l V"l
Z Z Z Z Z Z
~ Z ~ ~ ~ ~ z ~ ~ z z
- z z z ~ z z z z z z Z 1-0 Z
C':l c: c: c: c: ~ Z Z Z c: c: ~ 'a ~
- :2 :2 :2 :2 0 0 0 0 ~ ~ ~ :2 :2 :2 :2 ~ :2 0 0 ..c: :2
..!!! 1-0 CIl CIl CIl CI) CI) CI)
~ 0 CIl ~ ~ CIl CIS CIS CIS ~ ~ 0 U 0
cd CIS CIS 'c;) cd CIS cd 'C 'C CIS 'C 1-0 c: CIS CIS CIS 1-0 ~ & CIS
~ ~ ~ ~ ..c: ..c: ..c: ..c: ~ 0 ~ ~ ~ 0 ~ ~ U ~
'0 ~ CIl CIl OJ ~ c: a a e: 0 0 CIl 0 ~ cd CIl CIl CI) ~ 0 < 0 CIl
cd cd U cd cd ... ... cd ... "8 CIS cd cd cd cd cd
U U U ~ ~
rJ rJ 0 !~ 0 0 0 rJ 0 I> > 10 :> (3 ~ 10 0 10 0 0 E:3 0
1-0 ~
Cl -0 -0
- > 0
CI) 0 ~ ..c: > 0 - - 0 ...
"0 0 0 u ~ > l:O ~ M 'H "2 0 - 0
o..c: en 0 a ~ 0 ~
0 u > E 0 0 'C 0 U 0 >< u 0 a 0 -
CIl en ..,: 'C ::s c: I > 0 0 j 1-0 a > z ....J ..c:
CIl ~ cd cd e: .- < 0 M "0
~ 0 e 1-0 'C 'C; OJ U 1-0 U M
~ 0 0 ..J 0 g 1-0 ....J 0 l:O ~ 0 ~ 1 rE ~ en ~ Cl:::
... c: ::a Cl ~ e 0 0 0: 0 CIS CI) a 0 ~
"0 E 0 CIS ..c: ..c: ~ ; ... -0 ~ -0 ?;
-0 -0 ~ CIS ..t:l ..t:l ... U 1-0 e: ~ 'C ....J en 0 ~ ?; Cl:::
~ - 1-0 0 0 .... 'e CI) 0 0 U Cl::: c:
C':l ::s - ... E CIS 0 1-0 ~ -0
... cd 0 < ~ 1-0 .... ::s ... ] 0 0 ..c: '2 .... 0 :E 0 ::s
..c: 0 :; ~ ~ u cd cd
::s ::r: ~ ~ cd ..c: > "0 ... e ..c: en U U 0
~ 0 > ~ e ::s
< cd l; cd ~ 0 ... 0 0 fi: U \0 ....J a ~ 0\ U E = CIS U
~ ....J 0 c: U M \0 uJ - ~ V"l ~ V"l
V"l CIl 0 - - 0\ ::s ~ ~ 0 M - en ~ U ~ 0 8 E = ~ ~ ~ 0
- cd CI) U V"l M 0 0 Ig 0 ~ ~ ~ >< \0 0 V"l ~ 0 ~ \0 0 0 \0
- 0 I~ - I~ - - .~ I:Q V"l r- ~ I~ 00 ~ r- I~ IS;;: tt - I::::: ~ 18 ;;: ~ ;j ~ ~
1M - "'=" - 00 00 - - - - - -
~ -0 3! "8
e = 1-0 c:
a 0 ~ 1-0 a 0
C':l -8 ~ CI) '0 1:: .... c: :g,
1-0 CI) 0 ::s '"' c: CI) 1-0 CI)
= CI) 1-0 CI) e ~ ~ 1-0 0 ~ :5 c: c: ~
~ 0 ~ 0 0 ~ .5 CIS E .... ~ 0 0
1-0 e: e: ] E E ~ CIl ~ ~ ~ E ~ ~
- E 0 I~ ~ "0 en u 0 -0 OJ CI) E
~ c; I~ cd c: .... !~ ] cd U ~ cd E c: .... CI) cd 0 ~ ~ ::s
"0 0 1-0 ~ 10 8 CIl ~ ~ c: ~ I~ I..J ~ c: I~ cd ~ 0 .9 ~ Ie: I~ l:e
- IiI' ~ ~ .-; ~ I::'"
...... ~ ~
~
e 1::
C':l ~ c: .~
= ~ ~ 0 ~ 0 CIS c:
- 0 ~ c: 5 a c: "0 r; CI) ~ 'u 0 ~ cd
CI) 'i"- e: 0 e: "0 ':;j :3 ~ ~ c: ~
0 i: -5 CI) i: .... 'S; ..c: ?; ui 0
... 1-0 1-0 cd "0 CI) ~ e: ..t:l } CI) 'C 0 I~ 'C
~ I~ :.a .~ '3 CI) u .~ I~
c ~ It] t] I~ I~ ::s 'C I~ I~ ~ !g I:':: ~ ~ ~';; ,E cd .3 ~
CI'l ~ CI'l ~ ::: It'5 ~
.... M M ~ II') \C l' QO ::'\ 0 .... M M ~ II') \C l' QO ::'\ 0 .... M M ~ II') \C l' QO ::'\ 0 .... M M ..,. II') \C I"'-
.... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... N M M M N M N M M M M M M M M M M M
.
'i.
~
~
~
.
.
.~
(I)
....
CD
...
CD
ti~~t 1 a'~'~r~ 1~5 ::J
..... !l :0 00 It Q.! =-!l 5' 3 :c II: g e.
.. ~ Q. ~ tl:l..~' .. Q.OO 5. ~ lO g.p. c..
., 5 _. P1 - a"" Il ! c:: a Q. ~ $;
'2 ~ ~ =- ~'S. ~ e.P: ~ Q. a !l' g ~
5 ~ 3 F n.. =- =. -'!l ~ ~ l:l i5: C
~~Qlllg~i!aQ.I~~ ~16
9- g a ~ !"" l' 5!: g. :;. 5' "' 9- .. c::
"ooa=~:r;;'c::"n. $;a f~ 3
~~,!.~ ei i.:;"i!E~~f n~
a9-Qo p.~Q.~~9-Q.... ~~
~[~~~~. ~~If~~ n~
=Vl*"'r-_ ~o.?i2'" 0 2=
" ~!l g, ~ Q. Eo. 5' 9- iii '2 ~ ~ i
If,<Q.:o..16 'PCIl>..~7.. :;,.. C
~>oo~~:rQ.n~~Q.~$; Oil
'-"oc R 0 ., 0 C ::r., e n \"J. .... _. -&
oo~,~:o _ ~ 1l!l'O!""~ g", -l9-~
0\:0 ii! nO., "' ~ "8 -. =" '" tl:l
~~.-e! 00" >c; ,..~~ :0.. ii c cc
., ft=~....,=x-".., --v;r
S ~ if ~., ~ ~:o ~ ~ 3' $; if! :;&1
Q. - .. 00 II> -. - ","C e1 '" a 0 .,
~.'1~r~~'i "g~.B ~~~~..!l.R~' .~ .
~., 5'" ~ 5 8 a 5..@ a 'i! :0 !il ",' 9- , II'
",:0 ".--ao::.",.....oOlll$;1!1.
~Sf~;l"'-ii!<=:aa;'io !i$; c..
"'. 0 iil" '< 'P 8 ., '" Q.... ... 0
1;; $;;0> ,,::'2 a.....-....c::.
Ce =~rJ~': 5 S'Mt:'< ~~ o:~
>~~~~~g3~~~ioo~ ~ .
~ 5' ~cii! ~ ~ ;.If:;.P''>.,, ~ is.'' .......
00-..000....2 n E '2 '-....
8 ~:;::~ ::.:5:: :2": 0
~~'~g.l :5& ~ ~[~~E~ ...
-~ r~ ~'gifs ~ 5" 8 ~'3.
; '" Q. l!; 00 5' *11 .... - -. !!
.:f~;:&oo. ~iS ~~fl-c
atoaf i'~i" a~n~
o ... ~!il ii! fi., r C::;;' 9
... -... n"C .. -. e. =-::: ~
_00 :0 !l ~ ! Q.= .:(llll II>
![i~8 fr~i Ii ~f
~nOoM <~~ - UJ~
.. In' j;' 3 a ... n ~ El 10 c::
"C., .s2:r' 2i.- a
'-0 !.~-g. - o. ~ 0-
.. ... ;r~' 8 1:' sr = =-..;' cr
~8 !2:~r 0 In [ ;:;'f:3~~
.., . ft _ -'" 0 Co . :r 0\.. ~
.
~ ~~!il~~~~!l ~~Q ~
c ..=...a-;:l:fQ. =1"
~~iQ~~i~~~>t i;li
i'9l!<'.:( ~~~s-~i 1 a.. ~ ~ II
fif n~Q...~n~5.Sag~~
_ O'o/)I:=Q.oo '0_. ."'-
- c: V\ ~. n a = QIQ c: In (It :.,,=
=e: il" ..:0 "'a Q.Stl-"'CI='l:l
El a. :;~'2.~.:z:_.=r~2"g I!! 51';"
:l " 0 '" -. 0 12 2 ~,.. * ..
.,' g l!!!. E. ~ i ~ o' ~ .. 5' .. f
o ., Q. _, 0 _ :0 .. 00 =
Q.Q. ......=Q..._-..:c "Q.()
.... ",-::r_ =-"':rO,..- 0
..::. ::r"~9-"~"r-.,:;gil
'<= ..nn.... n -..
~~. ~il!! 3 f~:r [~~~
i~ ~ i3....:o ,..g." . ....& e
;;: ;:dll ~ g x g III 'i a o'~
.. (,I)1"lr,,~ .::s..
.
.
2:f5!.l a ~:i jf'f.~$; i
'<=~~ _::I = .. 8=_
5'00 0'- ;lo!!" -l (fi5:~ =
OliO..!!!=-' =- l.....t
-.,.. ~..~.. "0-'
~ ~ 51 f] 8&; s: e. $; ......cii!
S('o~iill:lS: ~ ~a81i
i f n' !l r-J:> ~1-, Q.!l Kg.
a (")$; 2i.=-s.$;"C II> g'~a.=.:
~~'!l.:lll~ ='~i'i.iJ' 12i!: s!.~
,., n Q. 2 _.00 ,,"..:r a" sr'i 3.
~:8i~(lf~:-; cr~s*!l.
~ Q 0'::~"!5:C '<,<:I"C III
.?':; :0 ; IS E!.s' 0 ,f 5': Q ~
] i i! ? i ~ ~ '2 5'29. !
~Q.. 0 ..'<= 'r:ES,<'i'-
m
...
~
-
m
~
c..
"
~
n
(j
tr
~
=
tT
~
tI)
tI)
n
=
-:::::; :tJ -I ~o
OIO::T
. ---
:J' ~.
9!CJ(/).......
<oa.~
Ul ,,,-
(II x -< (/)
gco~(/)
- Q,co)>C:
~ CD
'0 c:
::!. (")(0 ~
2::Tc:_
=r~se.~
i::T.....~
s ~ ,!:X)
"O(/).....
OCDco
-!t1~co
e.~ ".
() ~ -
Cz
!t1
0(11
3(11
CD~
a.....
-.......
r_
.
I
I
I
i
I
1
I
I
I
..
~,-~-
j
n'ODC')(")
S 0 ~ ~ ~ ,i
Ztl:lZ<1
J: 0 u :tl
Dx Oool
00 't)"Tl
OO...D 00
rn~:tlC')o
Z -.I ~ J::tl '
I Dool
"T!l!OZ
~
rn
(")
:tl *
rn *
D
ool
...
o
Z
3
Z
U\
UI
W
...
oo.,j
tl:l
re :!
L ..J-
.
~ rMTrnT~@1J' ~
~DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES
500 LAFAYETTE ROAD · ST. PAUL, MINNESOTA · 55155-40
.
DNR INFORMATION
(612) 296-6157
;:--......-.' "
~~. '.'
Dear Permittee:
1CC;
Your aeration permit application has been approved, enclosed you will fmd tWo copies of
your aeration permit. Please read your permit carefully to ensure that all information is
correct, then sign both copies and return one to this office in the enclosed postaee paid
envelope. Providing all terms and conditions of the. permit are met, your permit will be
valid when I have received the signed copy.
Please read the following summary of the regulations governing the operation of aeration
systems in protected waters:
Winter Operation: An aeration permit shall not be issued for winter operation of a
system where the diffusers are placed in a configuration where more than one open
water area is created during ordinary winter weather unless:
1.
2.
3.
There is no public access; and
the permittee owns or controls all land riparian to the protected water; or
the commissioner has determined that such a system will provide substantial
benefit to the lake resource.
.
Financial Responsibility: Permittees operating aeration systems in protected waters
without public access, where the permittee owns or controls all1and adjacent to the
protected water (shoreline property) by lease or similar agreement, are not required to
provide proof of fmancial responsibility. Municipalities are not required to provide
proof of fmancial responsibility.
All other permittees must provide proof of fmancial responsibility while operating an
aeration system during all times any portion of the lake is ice covered. This can be
done in one of two ways:
1. by posting a bond for $500,000
2. by providing a certificate of insurance for the current period of operation. The
insurance shall be general liability insurance which provides coverage of at
least $500,000 combined single limit.
An insurance binder is adequate until the policy has been issued, at which time have
your insurance agent mail a copy of your certificate to the Regional Fisheries
Manager.
.
AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER
.
Aeration periods: The start-up and stopping dates for aerating during periods of ice
cover shall be detennined by the Regional Fisheries Manager and will be specified in
the penn it. Most often the dates will be the same as you requested in your
application. However, there may be circumstances where an alternative schedule
should be used. In these cases the pennittee will be notified of changes to the
operating schedule in the pennit. No aeration system will be operated during the
period of ice fonnation until sufficient ice has fonned so that marking requirements
can be safely met, unless the pennittee has posted the appropriate area of open water
before ice fonnation by using buoys or posts driven into the bottom or using other
methods approved by the commissioner.
Posting requirements: Posting requirements are the same as last year. The open
water area must be posted with signs of the design specified, so that a sign is posted
at least every 100 feet completely enclosing the open water. If the open water is in
contact with the shoreline, thin ice signs shall be placed along the shore. Also, any
public access and other areas commonly used for access shall be posted with signs
warning that an aeration system is in use and that there may be thin ice and open
water.
.
Publication of Notice: The pennittee shall give advance public notice of the
commencement of operation of any aeration system authorized by a pennit from the
commissioner of natural resources on public waters during periods of ice cover.
Minimum notice shall consist of publication of the location and date of
commencement of operation of the system in a newspaper of general circulation in the
area where the system is proposed to be operated, at least two times between five and
60 days prior to commencement.
On protected waters without public access, where the pennittee owns or controls
access to all of the land surrounding the protected water, the permittee is not required
to post warning signs at access points or to give public notice. The pennittee must
still post thin ice signs enclosing the open water area.
Please make sure that the following requirements are taken care of early, to avoid crisis
situations.
1. Ensure that you have an insurance carrier located well before it is time to
operate your system.
2.
Place the first notice in a newspaper of general circulation not more than 60
days prior to your proposed date of operation. Make sure you are aware of
the paper's publication schedule (daily, weekly, bi-monthly, etc.), and time
your notices to coincide with those dates and your commencement date.
Remember, you must wait at least five days after the second notice is
published to operate the aeration system. (Enclosed are some examples of the
types of notices used).
.
.
"
3.
Make sure that you have enough signs prior to operating the system. If you
need signs contact your Area or Regional Fisheries Manager.
4. All new permittees or contact persons must attend an aeration workshop prior
to operating their system.
If you have any questions, please call me (612-296-0777) or your Regional or Area Fisheries
Manager.
Sincerely,
. LJ~
~Danks. Aquatic Biologist
Ecological Services Section
Enclosures
MD:bac
I
.
.
.
.
WAR~G
An aeration system creating open water and thin
ice will begin operating on
(Lake Name)
Lake in
(County Name)
County,
(Township) (Range)
on
(Section)(s) (Month) (Day) (Year)
Weather conditions may cause the areas of thin
ice and open water to fluctuate greatly. Stay
clear of the marked area!
--------------------------------------------------
Additional County and/or Local Restrictions
(Such as night use of motorized velpcles on
aerated lakes and/or restricted area inside thin ice
marked zone.
.
If there are questions concerning this aeration
system please call
.
- ....., .
-- ,... .
.., ..... MU
,
I
,
,
I
I
,
I
I
,
I
I
{J,
. I
I
,
,
I
,
I
. }-------
...-:,'
..
NA-01565-04
FOR DEPARTMENT USE ONLY
rr
.",IN.. "SlYCf~
PERl\UT FOR AERATION SYSTEM
Permit Number
F9456067
THIS PERMIT SUPER CEDES ALL PREVIOUS PERMITS AND IS NOT V ALID UNLESS SIGNED BY THE PERMITTEE.
Please vrint or tvve
Lake Name: County(ies):
Susan Carver
D.O.W.#: Township: Range: Section(s):
10-13 116 23 13,14
Name of Permittee: Telephone Number:
City of Chanhassen, c/o Todd Hoffman Pk & Rec (612 ) 937-1900
Address (No. & Street, RFD, Box No., City, State, Zip Code)
690 Coulter Drive, Chanhassen, MN 55317
Name of Operator or Contact Person (if other than permittee): Telephone Number:
Dale Gregory, Park Superintendant (612 ) 474-4127
Address (No. & Street, RFD, Box No., City, State, Zip Code)
1591 Park Road, Chanhassen, MN 55317
Purpose of Installation: fish populations in the event of low
To provide a refuge for
oxygen levels.
Location of System: .
Lake Susan Park, 903 Lake Drive East.
Aerator will be located 50 - 100 yards east of the public access.
Equipment such as air lines as air lines and diffusers D Will 1:81 Will Nor be left in the lake as a permanent installation.
Descri~tion of Authori~ System: & baffle, 7 1/2 hp.
One 1) Portab e pump
SG&ial Provisions
one
Proof of fmancial responsiblity required before permit is valid? 0 YES ~ NO
OPERATING SCHEDULE: (dates the system will be operational) Continuous operation between these dates is required except for
'ods of shutdown necessa for maintenance. An deviation from this schedule must be a roved b tbe Re ional Fisheries Man er.
Operating Schedule:
Operation will commence when low oxygen levels threaten fish
populations.
For wintertime use, a permit is valid only when the following applicable TERMS and CONDITIONS are met:
(1). Each public access point and other areas commonly used by the public for access to the lake shall be posted with
conspicuous signs stating that an aeration system is in use and the the marked areas of the lake should be avoided.
. The perimeter of the area of thin ice and open water shall be marked with signs places at a height of four to six feet in a
rectangular pattern at each comer of the open water, and additional signs between the comer signs so that a sign is posted at least every
100 feet. The signs shall be diamond shaped and at least 18 inches in height and 14 inches wide with a two inch wide orange border
with black lettering on a white background with the warning "Thin Ice" or "Open Water".
(2). The permittee sball give advance public notice of the commencement of operation of the aeration system dunng periods of
ice cover by publishing the location and date of commencement of operation of the system in a newspaper of general clf,'u)ation in the
area where the system is to be operated, at least two times between five and 60 days prior to commencement of operation,
(3). If the protected waters do not have public access and the permittee owns all of the riparian land or all of th~ possessory
rights to the riparian lands then the permittee is not required to:
a. Post warning signs at access points; or
b. Give advance public notice of the commencement of operation.
The permittee is, however, required to post the area of open water or thin ice as specified in the second paragraph of (1) above.
(4). Financial responsibility. All permittees, expect those operating an aeration system in protected waters without public
access, where the permittee owns all land riparian to the protected water, or all of the possessory rights to the land riparian to the
protected water, or has leased all access rights to the protected water, and state agencies subject to the State Tort Claims Act or
municipalities subject to the Minnesota State Tort Claims Act, must provide proof that the permittee is financially able to meet any
liability that should arise from the presence or operation of the system. This shall be done by:
a. Posting a bond for $ 5000,000; or
b. providing a certificate of insurance for the current period of operation. An insurance policy of $5000, 000 combined single
limit (minimum) coverage must be in effect until a certificate is issued, at which time the certificate must be delivered to the appropriate
.Regional Fisheries. Manager. Should the policy be cancelled before a scheduled expiration date, the Commissioner shall be notified at
least ten days before such cancellation. '
(5). The system and operating system are substantially as described herein.
Hold hannless. Permittee agrees to assume the entire responsibility and liability for all damages or injury to all persons and to
all property arising out of, resulting from, or in any manner connected with the design, construction, installation, operation,
maintenance, supervision, or inspection of the permitted aeration system. Permittee agrees to indemnify, defend, and hold harmless the
State of Minnesota, it's agents and employees from all claims, damages, or injury except those arising from the state's own negligence to
the extent authorized by Minnesota Statutes Section 3.736 the Minnesota Tort Claims act. This indemnity agreement includes, but is not
limited to, claims that tbe permittee was negligent or otherwise liable for allowing, designing, constructing, installing, operating,
inspecting, main,aining, supervising, or approving the permitted aeration system, or fitiling to do so.
The Commissioner may revoke a permit without prior notice when, in the Commissioner's opinion, revocation is necessary to
protect human life or natural resources.
I hereby cenify that I have read and understand the provisions of this permit and understand that this permit is not valid unless
it is si ned bv me.
penni~J~4~
Title ~ - A Date ~ h.#" ~ ~ /
P/f~~ ,f#CJ ~p~#//(J'IV' VIe y /#/c; /'
The Commissioner of Natural Resources, pursuant to authority vested in him by law, hereby grants the PERMIT FOR AERATION
SYSTEM, subject to the TERMS and CONDITIONS stated above and all applicable rules and regulations.
FOR THE COMMISSIONER OF NATURAL RESOURCES
.
RODNEY W. SANDO
Autho .
err/.
tl j;z,
,,: Direclor. Division of Enforcemenl
Direclor. Division of Walers
Regional Adminislralor
Regional Enforcemenl Officer
Regional Fisheries Manager
Regional Hxdrologisl
Regional \\ildlife Manager
9-/- Pt'
9/30/95
.
A/"iT?()'l/At. ~E~At.F"'/~,IIf/ _ ..-'/
",~~ ?~~ ~~Z/#E x/ 1,,-
· In modern times of ever-increasing pop-
ulation and congestion, real estate devel-
opers buy land at high prices. F~om the
~ombined pressures of co~tition ana
desire for gain, they often squeeze every
lot they can into some labyrinthi~
.plan...with little or no provision for
parks, recreation areas, or even for rea-
- ~
sonable "elbow room." The need for
some general planning and control is
apparent, and makes manifest the wis-
dom underlying the delegation of pow-
ers to the cities, as is done in the
statutes referred to above.
.
.
.
f'e
C
C4
~
('4
C
C4
C
j:-J"')..
t"J J~..
~ ') .)..
'~1') . .
-'J ')..
') -)1) . .
J~'J..
t';=>=:>a..
-
-
.
H 0:. {.."'-'.....M-. I
(f,-U ~ 0.4-- ~ ~ t::-du
U-i/7 n~~ '0 ~}-~ -u t:A-/i-r{k-
~ ~ M4--<-.~-fh- ~
&~Ti/J ~ ?/:?7 f~,2 nJ. 0t-
~ r
e4Uu".u4 ~ Jw^~...v ;#. MM,U.' .
( ( (!..u~ da:f" ~ ~ ~tvud'~.~,:>J_:)..
c a~A D ~ .' ' a' /. "'f.A U'. .~-A~...".)J.-.J...
L ( -,... 'r ~ ~ ,f,A.UL, v J'VX- ~....-, - , . - ,'- P --> J · .,
(I! 'jf;~~~ ~-Ou'J-uo-~ -td -tkiA.r: ~ J -->.- '...
( ( / Ih.A I _ -' ) yr- ~- ~ J~' j. / 1:).-> ....
C ~~ fL.a(V-yC/ ~ ~')J.)...
c.. ( ,---' t;~ ~ 1:.J -.J-~.J. ·
I /1 J.. "'~J' ~.J ) J J · · ·
fj~W ~~.- ....
.
~...
Chanhassen Senior Center Men's Club
Farmers Market
Mini Pumpkins
Acorn Squash
Grey Hubbard Squash
Gourds
.
Indian Corn
Buttercup Squash
Potatoes
Butternut Squash
Straw Bales
Beets
.
Muskmelon
Apples
Cucumbers
Cabbage
Egg Plant
Tomatoes
Peppers
.
Join us for a tour of the...
MINNESOTA HISTORY
CENTER
Tuesday, September 27
9:00 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.
Travel back in time as we visit the Minnesota History Center. Enjoy a
formal presentation, 15 minute walking tour, and a reserved showing
of the film "Home Place Minnesota." There will still be time to
explore on your own. A cafe is located within the center if you choose
to lunch.
The bus will meet/return at the Chanhassen Senior Center.
Fee: $9/person.
Register by Friday, September 23, 1994
----------------------------------------
Registration Form
Name:
Fee Paid:
Address:
Pbone:
Code No: AMHC9410
Return completed form and payment to tbe Cbanbassen Senior Center
690 Coulter Drive, Chanhassen, MN 55317
OKTOBERFEST
In New Ulm
Friday, October 14, 1994
.
Join us for this autumn adventure to Oktoberfest in New Ulm,
Minnesota. The bus will leave the Chanhassen Senior Center at
8:15 a.m. First we'll stop at Herman Heights to see the
Herman the German statue and take a stroll around the park.
Next we'll head to Schell's Brewery for an inside tour. Just
before noon we'll stop at the Glockenspiel to see it strike 12/
After that, we'll drop you off at Oktoberfest where you can enjoy
a couple hours on your own. We'll return to the Chanhassen
Senior Center around 4:45 p.m.
Fee:
$15/person which
includes coach
transportation and the
Schell's Brewery tour.
.
....---............................................................
Registration Form
Name:
Address:
Phone:
Fee Paid:
Code No: AFST94 10
Registration Deadline: October 3,1994
Minimum/Maximum: 30/45
Mail or drop off completed registration forms with
fee at:
Chanhassen Senior Center
690 Coulter Drive
Chanhassen, MN 55317
.
For more information, call 937.1900.
.
.
.
---:=========-
===--- -
Join us for a visit to...
AMISH COUNTRY
IN HARMONY, MINNESOTA
OCTOBER 5, 1994
Travel via motorcoach to Harmony In beautiful southeastern
Minnesota. The guided tour of the Amish Country will relate the history and
traditions of the Amish people as you see signs of horse-drawn buggies
and visit several markets, farms and the first church In Filmore County. A
complete lunch of baked chicken and dumplings with all the trimmings Is
Included.
The tour will be escorted by Travel Easy and will leave from the
Chanhassen Senior Center at 7:20 a.m. Treats will be served on the bus.
We will return about 5:45 p.m.
Fee: $39/person
Maximum: 10
-------------------------------------
Registration Form
Name:
Fee Paid:
Address:
Phone:
Code No: AACH9410
Please register by September 30.
Return completed form with payment to:
Chanhassen Senior Center, 690 Coulter Drive, Chanhassen, MN 55317
For more Information call 937-1900 ext. 144
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
690 COULTER DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
PHONE. 937.1900
PICNIC EVALUATION
.
In order to better serve participants using our picnic facilities, we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and give us some suggestions. Thank you!
Group Name:(optionallY'i1 v, 1'1 j C ~ ('lw t '> -\- Picnic Facility: LA L-c:- ;;~.aa \1
Excellent ~ood A veraee .Fair Poor
(Please Circle)
Overall impression of facility IT! 2 3 4 5
Did facility meet your expectations Q) 2 3 4 5
\
Were there enough tables/grills, etc. \c~ ~\.,- 1 2 3 4 5
\ ,
c.''\
Procedure for reserving picnic 1 (ii 3 4 5
Picnic Reservation Fee 1 0) 3 4 5
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) 1 2 3 4 5
Was facility clean 1 0 3 4 5 .
Comments:
What did you like most about your picnic facility? \'\.\ l.c '.', Iv (,I 1\ I \x\) I (-t-Rou\\ I loLlY:: };',iI I,
't' \/\ / I
\;\("\'''\' , ~nc\ \\~, r'':., <)\"i";\~"t:'~-, '1'J,r'1.( ~r/€~'"
: '_' I V r
What amenities would you like added?
C~-en( \ V
/
VllC\ V"' l( EO ,t rF ( 7' c \ \ \""3 l? " ,,/-.5
~-\i ((1 ~L~
What improvements could be made to better the facility? C' \ QY cL (f d I b f, ty~ C (1 \'/5>
---' -,
yo- r _ ...._. ~
'J.,
.jc,n Il .
.,
,.
c ';'v 0:- Cl-::.~' ~!.~,S'?:.:'l
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
690 COULTER DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
PHONE. 937.1900
.
PICNIC EVALUATION
In order to better serve participants using our picnic facilities, we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and give us some suggestions. Thank you!
Group Narne:(optional) ~~J(JO\~{ Picnic Facility: L'Cl 't; ~~ ~ZV\h \\o-"V)
Excellent ~ A vera2e Fair Poor
(Please Circle)
Overall impression of facility 6) 2 3 4 S
Did facility meet your expectations 1 (i) 3 4 S
Were there enough tables/grills, etc. cD 2 3 4 S
Procedure for reserving picnic cD 2 3 4 S
, t2
Picnic Reservation Fee 2 3 4 S
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) 0) 2 3 4 S
.Was facility clean 1 2 3 @ S
Comments: ~l(!i ",,-( "~ ~l~ n 0 J-dt:-J ... ~. -(, li?a/(
'd /1) ePf Llfly
,
--\:1\1(<#") i I" A.: 31~J d I .
Whitt ameilities would
r
.~.kJJt
What improvements could be made to better the
'[ e
ny sug estions or ideas to better the picnic reservation process? -P ~ - ,+- U?d~
,
~ - .
Addi~on~ Comments: ,l~.. ~ ~r:ltK ~4uUL ~-
~~_,f~, q" . ,) 6: " - ,
Thank you for taking the time to complete this evaluation. Your input and comments are very important to us.
Have a great day!
'.~
.
.'-.--'-.
__.t.
.
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
690 COULTER DRIVE -
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
PHONE. 937.1900 -
.
PICNIC EVALUATION
In order to better serve participants using our picnic facilities, we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and give us some suggestions. Thank you!
Group Name:(OPtional)a,.,. ~"t->.;r~I'~ C~Picnic Facility: ILl' h~ S~.s4";7
Excellent ~ A veral!e Fair Poor
(Please Circle)
Overall impression of facility 1 6J 3 -4 ~
J
Did facility meet your expectations 1 U) 3 4 5
Were there enough tables/grills, etc. 1 d) 3 4 5
Procedure for reserving picnic 1 6J 3 4 5
Picnic Reservation -Fee 1 aJ 3 4 5
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) 1 2 3 4 5
ttwas facility clean 1 2 3 4 5
Comments:
What did you like most about your picnic facility?
What amenities would you like added?
What improvements could be made to bette~ the facility?
.
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
- 690 COULTER DRIVE .
CHANHASSEN, MN ~5317
PHONE · 937.1900
r.-" (*'" ;.-=-..;..J ~ ~-~
~_ ~.. ~~ ~ ~ .\1 ~~ t J
~' :..~ ~.I 'r ",?SL
,.
PICNIC EVALUATION
-
CI'"" '- ,-, ,. "'I'~ I'-'_'~'.'
11 \,.., ..' ,,'
In order to better serve participants using our picnic facilities, we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and give us some suggestions. Thank you! -
~~~;;I-iJJLV ~A J/A /1..04 _ In I ' .
- Group Name:(optional) -'.'J~fi '/Y5.::oP Picnic Facility~ff,vlvnM~
Excellent ~ A veral!e lair Poor
(Please Circle)
Overall impression of facility I @ 3 4 S
Did facility meet your expectations I ~ 3 4 S
Were there enough tables/grills. etc. I (!) 3 4 S
Procedure for reserving picnic I @ 3 4 S
Picnic ReservatiOllFee I 2 3 ~ S
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) I 2 3 ~ S
Was facility clean I 2 '@ 4 S .
~riJ/!iA1?;$!;':C;i!~~)1~~'ik~1fX/
What did you like .most about yo~ r;nic),";t,7? ~-f).//Md J ~. fY1~.JJTJh) t'h<J.I /ff)
J!f)~lJ au--v1U)Y R;tv. ~
-
. 7 L' - 7
What amenities would you like added'! ~..A1Jt1iJAJ. ""K.JJ/'Lun/J.I) Ilfvn./lJ.JLY . -
-
What improvements could be made to bette~ the facility'! I~~ /n1..b1.L tjtt'XJ =
.
Do you have ~ny suggestions or id~s to better the p~cnic reservatio
· Additional CDmments:1J/e:.fJloJjj/~ ~ ~ 1J1d.-
Thank you for taking the time to complete this evaluation. Your input and comments are very important to us.
Have a great day!
.
.
.
V_"''''~._'_'''''_'''''-'''''''''' _,. "_''-''_~_'.",_~'.i~'', ..:~.....,;",,:,~,,--~~,- "-""_....,,~~;.."-.!..:.... ~..~_.,~ '.
CiiA1'.'1IASSEN PARKS -At,'D RECREA nON DEPARTMENT
- 690 COULTER DRIVE .--
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
- PHONE. 937-1900
PICNIC EV ALVA TION
RECEIVED
SEP 0 6 1994
.
CITY DE CHANHASSE~
In order to better serve participants using our picnic facilities. we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and give us some suggestions. Thank you!
Group Name:(optional) ~&?L7"S ~;'~~c.. Picnic Facility: LA~~ ~ S.,tIfN
Excellent ~ A vera2e yair Poor
(Please Circle)
Overall impression of facility (i) 2 3 4 5
Did facility meet your expectations (i) 2 3 4 5
Were there enough tables/grills. etc. 1 CD 3 4 5
Procedure for reserving picnic C0 2 3 4 5
Picnic Reservation Fee Q 2 3 4 S
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) CD 2 3 4 S .
CD
Was facility clean 2 3 4 5
Comments: L2bvJ /M-w t/~cl S" ro t../ /1' 01( ~ 7A~ ~-1 S
What did you like most about your picnic facility? Le;e"a?7C;",)
What amenities would you like added?
...v O.....I1t
What improvements could be made to bette~ the facility? /VO,v4!
.
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
..690 COULTER DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
PHONE. 937.1900
PICNIC EV ALVA nON
.
In order to better serve participants using om picnic facilities, we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and giV~ us some suggestions. Thank you! .PJ
Group Name:(nPtional)~FI1j~ Picnic Facility:~ ~
J:xcellent ~ A vera2e .Fair Poor
(Please Circle)
C-yerall inipression of facility
Did facility meet your expectations
Were there enough tables/grills. etc.
Procedure for reserving picnic
G
o
Picnic Reservation Fee
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) 1
.was facility clean, Q
Comments: --;l. ~ ~ ---
vJodA ~h~.. ~ ~
2 3 4 S
2 3 4 5
2 3 4 5
2 3 4 5
2 3 4 5
2 3 4 5
2 3 4 5
~'~J ~f<Z.~~ . ~-ary
,
0, e most about your picnic facili~ ~ eh..- ~:1{'
, .{t?c.---L!~~-Lt~. //~~.7
What amenities would you like added?
7
.
What improvements could be made to bette~ the facility?
.
7
&.
Do you have any ~uggestions W ideas to better the picnic reservation process? /J -€.-L -,..-~ --z:;-
~ ~ r'7>~ ~ ~ .c..-? ~q~ ~ ,.
U v
~~5~~~;;J. ~7r, ~ 1~~
Thank you for taking the time to complete this evaluation. Yom input and conUnents are very important to us.
Have a great day!
.
.
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
690 COULTER DRIVE
-CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
PHONE. 937.1900
.
PICNIC EVALUATION
In order to better serve participants using our picnic facilities, we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and give us some suggestions. Thank you!
Group Name:(optional) /:#JI!fP/,I/!f{) ~
Picnic Facility:
~1!J///;;1ff ,
Excellent
~ Averal!e
(Please Circle)
lIll:
Poor
Overall impression of facility l~ 3 4 S
Did facility meet your expectations G2 3 4 S
G
Were there enough tables/grills, etc. 1 2 4 S
0
Procedure for reserving picnic 2 3 4 S
Q
Picnic Reservation Fee 1 3 4 S
G
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) 1 2 3 4
.Was facility clean 1 2 G 4 S
Comments:
What did you like most about your picnic facility?
What amenities would you like added?
What improvements could be made to bette~ the facility?
~. - ...... -
.
- "'-1 w..:.
\r..' " ., 1"'.....1
,~, "'" '-'
CITY OF CH/\NH.t\SSEi'J
~ - .._~ ",--'-""",,~-_.-._.-=-..--.~.~...,...~.-.. ~ ........,.
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
690 COULTER DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
PHONE. 937.1900
PICNIC EV ALVA TION
.
In order to better serve participants using our picnic facilities, we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and give us some suggestions. Thank you!
Group Name:(optional) Cb(f~ f 'u.\",^+h~ Picni: ~acility: LtLlCt-SUSclh
Excellent ~ A veral!e b!!: Poor
(Please Circle)
Overall impression of facility 0 2 3 4 S
@
Did facility meet your expectations 1 3 4 S
G)
Were there enough tables/grills. etc. 2 3 4 S
Procedure for reserving picnic f) 2 3 4 S
........... (0
Picnic Reservation Fee 2 3 4 S
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) 1 2 3 4 S
Was facility clean 1 @ 3 4 S .
8;~njJ~)~ J'tftI~'rf~~j/t/:J1 j;,~~;, 1.lttM~ j~ld<!J
\'&at ame~ties 9iOul~?t like added? ~~~ t ~) ~ ~;~ ~~
O-At<<- . I ) V0-0 VJu.. '/Y'AJ.t<u JAM; 'il . , 0 t 1. '-'Lf.- U
,1~J
.
Additional Comments: lYL J/JLb~ IU~J:M--trm. .t(/I,Ubl bv.J- _~ /./Il#'/J?1A'
!JJEx:~~~rA;:!I4;:/1k~~;'~ ;:- L:.~~ ,,:upf
.
Thank you for taking the time to complete this evaluation. Your input and comments are very important to us.
Have a great day!
.
.
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
690 COULTER DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317 ., ,..
- PHONE. 937.1900 '. -
PICNIC EVALUATION
.
In order to better serve participants using our picnic facilities. we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and give us some suggestions. Thank you!
Group Name:(optional) Picnic Facility: A~
Excellent ~ A veral!e Fair Poor
(Please Circle)
Overall impression of facility 1 (J) 3 4 S
Did facility meet your expectations 1 d) 3 4 S
Were there enough tables/grills. etc. CD 2 3 4 S
Procedure for reserving picnic 1 (i) 3 4 S
.... @
Picnic Reservation Fee 1 3 4 S
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) 1 2 3 4 S
.
Was facility clean @> 2 3 4 S
Comments:
What did you like most about your picnic facility?
What amenities would you like added?
What improvements could be made to bettet: the facility?
.
.
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
690 COULTER DRIVE.
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317 -
PHONE - '37-1900
PICNIC EVALUATION
In order to better serve participants using our picnic facilities, we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and give us some suggestions. Thank you!
Group Name:(optional) CoNS .:en c.. . Picnic Facility: J.. ~ j!(~ Ann. . 1 .
fa" I I 0 "
Excellent !i22! A veraee Fair Poor
(Please Circle)
Overall impression of facility Q) 2 3 4 S
Did facility m~~t your expt"'cVitlOnS G) 2 3 4 S
Were there enough tables/grills, etc. V 2 3 4 S
Procedure for reserving picnic 1 @) 3 4 S
........... D 2 3 4 S
Picnic Reservation Fee
@)
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) 1 3 4 S
.was facility clean 0, 2 3 4 S
Comments: We. hN\H~ u.s~d -th~A +'N.~' \'I-ty ~r" ~ f'a~+ +w~ yeiirs ~
~u..t' ~f.i.n.y p~" n;t! a.nd LL.): Ll p...e pa.b\y rp.~lO r-v t' 'rJ i+ a~,:'1I. f\f" ~+ Yl"~r-~
--rho rl"'Flh\c",", -+~m- lDl'.. h~ue. €..'iFPr1p.n('fed bo11.. 'fe;tr-.ft. I~ -that'" -Hio..
~;'f\e~~l p~hl;~ i!i. u.n.iLU>a.r'- ~ pN.vdit'H'\ (1~h I be. re.se.rv-~d so
~~Utii:?U'I~~:~~~~1~_~ee~~~ ~. ;~~. b~~ .-t~.
~,,~~ jj;~' ~il~~.\~!;:- h~;_"~ -f"""~t.
.:c. ~ +h.e r' e. <:'..0 ...... \.d be.. B. ) i'il ("~ e. ~ i:J.' ~ 05 i:f..d <i.t -tho. f~ \ L 1'\ n
e.n-+,..a.n~e. -th~i- ~ -"tlQ.ili~i& -.e..r .e.cL_~_~.1;e."'e. ;~ wo~
l
~~~:~:~:~ed~~' ~~!~~~~::t~. t:rL~:::;
!~~ .~n' r ..~~ ~~; --~-- I~ ---
ot- I . f' 0 '; de" , l:)"+~Y ab"",,+ he.,n~ =~
What improvements could be made to bette~ the facility?
.
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
690 COULTER DRIVE
- CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
PHONE - 937-1900
Rrt.~~~;f "
u..~t.t W ...;,J
,.! '., :-i ! 1Q94
. ,", ~. .' , ....
PICNIC EVALUATION - CITY OF \"'hh!~h":"~S::.
. . "-.." . :- q,(~,_~.._~~i~::"'-'l..J".~~~;~'~:i~"i
In order to better p~ery~ participants-using, ,~ui=piC'''9~~S~~j~~k~i~~b;~~~g~;~ili::t~~~~er the
following questions. and :give'u~i?me:Suggestions~~'m;8nk ~our '.(~'~:~t.!.:..,_'.'~.:... :.>._-,,-~ ' ' .
Group Name:(Optional>-~\~ fu~~Picnic Facility: ~a.;-J\\\\M ~ La.Ju.~~
.t:xcellent ~ A veraee 'air Poor
(Please Circle)
Overall impression of facility G 2 3 4 5
D.id facility meet yourexpe.ct2tions (9. 2, 3 4 5
Were there enough tables/grills, etc. \i) 2 3 4 5
Procedure for reserving picnic \i) 2 3 4 5
Picnic Reservation Fee (Y 2 3 4 5
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) 1 @ 3 4 5
Was facility clean (i) 2 3 4 5 .
Comments: ~CU~ \/'JetS W Md C11aA. .
What amenities would you like added? Nbnt- ~\ ~ +h\(\~ 1> .
What improvements could be made to bette~ the facility?
/'
/'
/'
/'
, .
.
~
Do you have any suggestions or ideas to better the picnic reservation process? _~
.
Additional \:;\>mments: p,r~~ +u.md bt.d quo..J \~. WI... ~ IAL
~F+a~~~~~ ~
.
Thank you for taking the time to complete this evaluation. Your input and comments are very important to us.
Have a great day!
.
.
)-::~~ ~_. ')~,~ '! ::!~:-
: --. .~.;.~~-;';,..~\i~-~t..!.~..~:. -~~;J'<.f'~ ~:-:_:: ~:~. ':;..,
:..:.. ;:'~~-~;.t~t;.:~=..~"..,. ._..:~:,,~~.,"~tt;I---:~~-''':.:' _i.: ~-'
. c...~ ~ '.~ ':.:<:'.. ~
'(f~~~
~
:;'"
CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT
690 COULTER DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
PHONE - 937-1900
PICNIC EVALUATION
.
In order to better serve participants using our picnic facilities, we ask that you take a few minutes to answer the
following questions and give us some suggestions. Thank you!
Group Name:(optional)-1dtJl I- ~)" \~Af,'()~ Picnic Facility: LAJ::.e -Su.si) k)
Excellent ~ A verae:e Fair Poor
(Please Cirde)
Overall impression of facility 1 CO 3 4 5
Did facility meet your expectations 1 CO 3 4 5
Were there enough tables/grills, etc. 1 2 3 4 5
Procedure for reserving picnic 1 2 3 4 - CD
Picnic Reservation Fee 1 CD 3 4 5
Parking Fee (Lake Ann Only) 0 ~ 1 2 3 4 5
Was facility clean G 2 3 4 5 .
Comments:
What did you like most about your picnic facility? --rr1r- ('[N;J:- p'(")il~~ or ,qJl ~(lk{:l'\fs'
((Nk'(~1l I.::eo'('h ~1/)/,(J{/~'N),.s.J) bc) Jh,c~~~}J..{"f I \
What amenities would you like added?
What improvements could be made to better the facility? -rht' ~~ h;.JA
~txJtt- C"r-",\. lId. b~ ~t'Jtf" 1F",1f. I
.f J-.r IIrJ~, I ~ 1/
I .
R~CCJVCD .
AUG 2 5 1994
ell 'Y u,. CHANHA~~EN
Do you ?ave any suggestions or ideas to better ~e,pic~c r~slerva?on l>!c:>cess'l O~\t ( t"J~" fX'j/..Yn..~
~'r,rll)'~ ~V~ (~~jVtJ.:I()~to ~{O\~~
· Additional Comments:
Thank you for taking the time to complete this evaluation. Your input and comments are very important to us.
Have a great day!
-
.
.
.
.
.
Q)
en 1ij
..: UJ
Q) Q) to-
t ~ .e
Q)
~ ::I ~ Q)
E "C 15
Q) - a cc - ~
a ~ -
W <<I _e .~
Q) "C i C\I m ::c "
en c::: e
.. ..... :IE ~ CD
S - 0 CD W ~ .- Q)
~ e- .- ...
Co) i Ii: (J .... ~
en Q. as
Q) tn to- e
(0 ::I .- (!) >>J ... i CI
~ " ... e
~ S c::: ,:. .-
.- .. ...
"C e II 5 >- CD
Q) e ~ .c
c::: i ::I C
::I .- ~ as
~ ... CC
- .c
::::I to- =>> (J
CD CD 0 i .
5 = LL.
~
~