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1994 10 25 Agenda FILE . AGENDA PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION TUESDAY, OCTOBER 25, 1994, 7:30 P.M. CHANHASSEN CITY HALL, 690 COULTER DRIVE ROLL CALL APPRO V AL OF THE AGENDA (Commissioners may add or delete items at this time) PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS VISITOR PRESENTATIONS Commission Procedures allow for presentations from the audience at this time. If a motion is required, the item will be forwarded to the next available agenda to allow for publication and review of items prior to consideration. UNFINISHED BUSINESS 1. Establish proposed speed limits and hours of use for snowmobiles on the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route. . NEW BUSINESS 2. Land Development Proposal: Rezoning of 49.9 acres of property zoned A2, Agricultural Estate to R4, Mixed Low Density Residential and preliminary plat of 49.9 acres into 92 twin home lots and one outlot, located north of Highway 5 approximately 1A mile on the east side of Galpin Boulevard (CR 117), Lotus Realty Services, Lake Ann Highlands. Owner Lars 1. Conway 4415 Freemont Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55409 Developer/Subdivider Brad Johnson Lotus Realty Services P.O. Box 235 Chanhassen, MN 55317 Engineer BRW, Inc. 700 3rd St. So. Mpls., MN 55415 3. Establish an agenda for the work session with the city council in regard to a proposed park, open space and trail acquisition and development referendum and park and recreation goals. . 4. Program Reports: a. b. c. d. Senior Center Summer softball Fall softball Halloween Party . 5. Administrative Presentations: a. Winter newsletter changes b. Neighborhood ballfield and weekend reservation policy. 6. Commission Member Presentations. 7. Approval of August 9 and September 27, 1994 Minutes. ADJOURNMENT . . I- Z <( LOCATION: o ::i 8: APPLICANT: <( . ~ ~ W I- - (f) . CITY OF CHANHASSEN ~ PRC DATE: 10-25-94 PC DATE: CC DATE: All HOFFMAN:k fYfI - STAFF REPORT PROPOSAL: Rezoning of 49.9 acres of property zoned A2, Agricultural Estate to R4, Mixed Low Density Residential and preliminary plat of 49.9 acres into 94 twin home lots and one outlot, Lake Ann Highlands North of Highway 5, approximately 1A mile on the east side of Galpin Boulevard (CR 117) Brad Johnson Lotus Realty Services P.O. Box 235 Chanhassen, MN 55317 Lars J. Conway 4415 Freemont Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55409 PRESENT ZONING: A2, Agricultural Estate ADJACENT ZONING AND LAND USE: N . RSF, Residential Single Family (Windmill Run) S - Highway 5 E - A2, Agricultural Estate W - CR 117 (Galpin Boulevard) COMPREHENSIVE PARK PLAN: This site lies within the park service areas of the new elementary school site and the proposed Stockdale park site. Access to these locations are currently restricted by road/highway crossings. In the future, Lake Ann Park, although it lies just outside the park service area for this development, will provide a variety of recreational opportunities for the residents living here via the new parkway trail system. COMPREHENSIVE TRAIL PLAN: !J1'At; nuu rUbUUUJU~ October 25, 1994 Page 2 also fronts on CR 117 (Galpin Boulevard) for an approximate distance of 600 feet. A trail will parallel this alignment in the future, extending from Highway 5 (in the vicinity of the creek) north. Additional right-of-way may be requried to accommodate this future construction. I will ask the city engineer to render a decision in this regard and make this right-of-way a condition of approval if it is necessary. RECOMMENDATION It is recommended that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the city council require the following conditions of approval in regard to parks and trails for Lake Ann Highlands: 1. Full park and trail fees be collected per city ordinance in lieu of land dedication and/or trail construction. . . . .. ~ . . . 3 CITY OF CHANHASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM TO: Park and Recreatien Cemmissien Tedd Heffman, Park and Recreatien Directer -rl-l /-k- FROM: DATE: Octeber 21, 1994 SUBJ: Establish an Agenda fer the W erk Sessien with the City Ceuncil in Regard to. the Prepesed Park, Open Space and Trail Acquisitien and Develepment Referendum and Establish 1995 Park and Recreatien Cemmissien Geals The city ceuncil discussed the cemmissien' s receIlIll1endatien to. censider a 1995 park, epen space and trail acquisitien and develepment referendum en Octeber 10, 1994. The minutes resulting from their discussien are attached fDr YDur review. As YDU can see, upDn cDmpleting their discussien, the cDuncil decided to. defer this issue to. a wDrk sessiDn with the cDmmissiDn. The meeting has been set fDr Wednesday,NDvember 9 at 5:30 p.m. at City Hall. This issue has been the subject Df severallDcal editorials and made headline news in the OctDber 13, 1994 editian Df the Chanhassen Villager attached articles). To. set the stage far this wDrk sessian, I am requesting the specifying the infarmatiDn which YDU wDuld like staff to. cDuncil. establish an agenda fDr presentatiDn to. the city On a secDnd iss\1e, the nDtiDn.of gDalsetting has~1l;4isc~~se4.e.llIl1.1Wereus ~casiDns by the cDmmissian and city cDuncil. In the past, staff members have prepared ljsts.of persDnal gDalS which reflect their jDb requirements. and respDnsibilities. The CoI'IlIIlissiDn has Dther gaals and shauld clarify thDse far the benefito.f the cityc;ouncil.and the city's residents. By establishing a propo.sed 1995 capital imprDVet1'lenFpro.gram (CIF), the cDmmissio.n has identified a variety Df gaals far 1995. What is left to. cDmmunicate are thDse gDals which are nat tied directly to. the CIP, i.e. referendum, rec;o.nstructian o.f City Center Park, etc. UpDn hearing YDur camments, staff will prepare bDth an agenda and a set Df 1995 Park and RecreatiDn Cammissian gDalS fDr presentatiDn to. the city cDuncil Dn Navember 9. Attachments 1. 2. October 10, 1994, City Council Minutes. News Article, The Chanhassen Villager, October 13, 1994; "Council to Hammer Out Park Referendum" by Dean Trippler. Editorial, The Chanhassen Villager, October 13, 1994; "Pursue Park Referendum Task Force" by Dean Trippler. Editorial, The Chanhassen Villager, October 20, 1994; "Park Referendum, What's the Plan and What are we Buying Here?" by Tim McGee. 3. 4. ~ ~ . . . ~ . . . City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the request by the Southwest Metro Trail Association to utilize the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route as a snowmobile trail with a speed limit not to exceed 40 mph, an annual review, and additional details regarding curfews and enforcement to be worked out at the next Park and Recreation Commission meeting. AU voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. Mayor Chmiel: Todd, you will get back and let us know too as to what's transpiring on this. Todd Hoffman: We'll forward the action of the City Council to Hennepin Parks and we'll take this back to the Park and Rec Commission... REVIEW RECOMMENDATION FROM THE PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION TO CONSIDER A 1995 PARK. OPEN SPACE AND TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT REFERENDUM. Mayor Chmiel: I just wanted to mention something before we go into that one, which I think we should probably have a work session on this to take into consideration some of these acquisitions and the referendum. And I think along with that, at that particular work session, I think we should work that out so we can as well have them bring their 1995 goals in with that so we can combine those two things, or maybe even three there might be. All in one ball so we can move from there. So with that Todd, if you'd like to just touch on that. Todd Hoffman: I'll require about 5 minutes... Mr. Mayor, members of the City Council. I would like to just explain on behalf of the folks in the audience how we reached this point and why the Park and Recreation Commission... Over the past few years, ask the Council, the Planning Commission, anyone in this city has seen, we are increasingly more aware that the City of Chanhassen has to be visionary and proactive in the area of open space acquisition and preservation being with all the development that is taking place in the city. A number of lost opportunities for acquisition of open space continue to mount as the pace of development quickens throughout our city. However, the more exciting issue is the number of opportunities remaining. Those are what the Parle and Recreation Commission needs to see and to take advantage of. The Parle Commission initiated an update of the recreation section of the Comp Plan nearly 2 years ago due to the rapid pace of development in order to assess the city's future in the areas of park, open space, trails and other recreational facilities. Ironically that efforts been put on hold a number of times due to the pace of development reviews which both staff and the commission... However, the commission quickly determined through a detailed study of the vacant lands remaining in Chanhassen, that without some action being taken, the future of our open space system would be jeopardized in the city. We looked at the lessons learned in other communities farther in and we also looked at their victories which other cities have attained over the years as a part of the inspiration. The Commission openly acknowledges that a major land acquisition effort will require the support of the city's residents, the City Council, and other community organizations. It is clear that the commission unanimously advocates a referendum, but they are not positioning themselves to jam it down anybody's throats. On the contrary, the Park Commission and staff stand ready to administer a referendum explaining the present status of development in the city and how the future of parks and recreation stands to benefit or be harmed by that development. Clearly none of the individual groups named, citizens, City Council members, Park and Recreation Commission, staff members, other civic organizations, can accomplish this initiative alone. However, united all those groups can help secure the city's future of the city's natural resources. At this time I'd like to present the City Council with a framed copy of a page from the October 29th, 1969 Chanhassen Maverick newspaper. Appearing on that page is an advertisement from a citizen group advocating a park referendum in 1969 in the amount of $250,000.00 to fund the initial acquisition of portions of Lake Ann Park and to complete other park 30 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 improvements. I'll put a copy of that on the overhead as well. This is a document that we dido't just happen to have lying around. It came in...one of the neighbors who works for the city of Chanhassen parks department and thus we recall the referendum of 1969. After passing that referendum initiated the legacy of the city's most cherished park, that being Lake Ann Park. I wonder, without that action being taken what that park would be today. Perhaps more residential development in addition to highway business on Highway 5. At the request of the Park and Recreation Commission, that fIrst park referendum occurred 24 years ago. If we peer 24 years into the future of the city as we talk tonight, or maybe even 10 or 15 years into the future, the opportunity for setting aside a separate park at Lake Ann or Bluff Creek or a Bluff Creek preservation District, or a large tract of land for recreational fIelds or to preserve a large stand of maple forest will be gone. The city's Park and Recreation Commission does not want to look back 20 years from now and say they did not try to save some of the city's landscape in the change. They recognize such an effort will be a tough sell just as it was in 1969 but they also remind themselves, as we look back and reflect how wise it was to invest $250,000.00 in 1969, to do something good for the community, so too would future generations look back on a successful referendum of today. The recommendation which the Park and Recreation Commission forwarded to the City Council in this regard was a motion by Andrews and seconded by Commissioner Lash to recommend that the City Council investigate a 1995 park, open space and trail acquisition and development referendum of a scope yet undetermined and to proceed to appoint a task force to initiate this process. I'm sure the members of the commission here this evening would be willing to amend that motion to work in the Mayor's comments that this be brought down to a work session instead of being appointed to a task force at this time. That motion was approved unanimously. At this point the members of the Park and Recreation Commission are here this evening if they would like to comment in this regard. I would like to welcome them to do so. Jim Andrews: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. I appreciate this opportunity to enthusiastically speak in favor of this concept. I made some notes here this evening about why we need this referendum. Todd made a comment about active versus reactive and in the 5 years, I think it's been 5 years that I've been active with the Park Board, I think that most of our actions have been reactive rather than active or proactive. Typically our annual budgets run about $150,000.00 a year. Most of those budgets are completely absorbed with ADA upgrades and maintenance and do not provide us with the necessary dollars to preserve lands. Usually what happens when developments come in we're presented with the leftovers and the tidbits of usually undevelopable, isolated or too small to provide a true preservation parcel. There are some other issues that again make it necessary for I think a referendum to create a larger capital fund. One would be to develop Bandimere Park. We have 33+ acres that to this point we have not been able to do anything with and...such as this to continue to benefIt proaction on that property. We also have, as Todd mentioned, areas of trees and the Bluff Creek corridor. All of these are unique assets to our community and if we don't take action to preserve those, they will become asphalt, concrete and manicured lawns. We also have other park improvements which require large amounts of money. One is the new park planned for Lake Minnewashta. The Stockdale property, which is a property that we're looking at purchasing. We would have no funding to develop that And the Park Commission has been attempting to identify properties south and southwest which would serve future populated areas of Chanhassen so we need to look at acquiring sufficient parcels there for active areas. Other areas of need would be trails. Highway 101 being one, and other key segments that have been missed or inadequately constructed. Another issue is the equipment We have the new school property which will be coming on line which will require improvements. There are other parks in our system which have either no equipment or adequate equipment and as you've seen with some of the budget items that have come across your tables, the cost of the equipment is unbelievable. We used to be able to put up a very nice play structure for well under $10,000.00. Now we're faced with a situation where if we touch a park, we're usually looking at $20,000.00, $30,000.00 or $40,000.00. As each neighborhood comes on line and again as I mentioned under a funding system that we now have, we're taking out of one pocket Robbing Peter to pay Paul and really as a park 31 } . . . ~ . . . City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 commission, we do not have the ability to preserve right now. All we have right now is the ability to maintain. So to me this is a very, very important issue. I again, agree with what Todd said. That is that 20 years from now people will be looking back at this time as an opportunity to preserve some beautiful parts of Chanhassen and if we fail to take action now, that opportunity is lost. Thank you very much. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Jim. Fred. Councilman Mason: We've got to get the name on that sweatshirt changed Fred. Fred Berg: I've been working on that. Mayor Chmiel: It starts out with the right two first letters. Or three. Councilman Mason? Sorry. I'm sorry. Fred Berg: There's really nothing I can add that hasn't been stated by Todd or Jim. I just wanted to be here tonight to demonstrate my strong support for the motion that we passed onto you folks. You know the need. We don't have to tell you what that need is. Hopefully you'll see fit to at least get together in a work session or appoint a task force to at least investigate what we think is a very great need so thanks. Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Jim Manders: My name is Jim Manders. I'm a member of the Park Commission and briefly stated as what was already stated by Jim. That there are many areas that we need funding and consideration for but to me if you break it into two pieces. One being the outfitting of a lot of these facilities. We're short on that, but that's an issue that can be dealt with further down the line. To me the key issue is preservation. If we don't deal with the water corridors and the land needs when they get developed, we don't have to worry about outfitting these places so it's preservation that I'm most concerned with. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Jim. I know that was one of the discussions I had with Mr. Hoffman today in regards to some of those concerns and some of those properties that will eventually be brought into the MUSA line. That working has to be done between developers to make sure if we need something a little bit bigger, to work two parcels or two developers together so we can get one parcel for those kinds of parks. Jan. Jan Lash: I guess that's the key issue for me too and I've never been a supporter of a referendum. Of us pitching for a referendum because I know that a lot of people in the community are not receptive to increases in their taxes. Actually most people aren't receptive to that. But last winter we crawled around on our hands and knees in this room where Todd had supplied us with big aerials like that of the whole city and we crawled around and tried to look for spots that we could earmark that could be used that hadn't already been platted out or spoken for by some developer. And we came up with about I think the most 3 spots that we thought could even be up for consideration and that's kind of like, I think 1 or 2 of them are already gone. So we, that really drove home to me the need to at least be able to acquire some property for future use and if we don't do something now, it will all be gone and like Jim said, there's nothing we'll be able to do about it and we won't have to worry about trying to have money to outfit it There won't be any land. Now unless there's some way that you guys can stop all the developers."land, you know that's up to you. Councilwoman Dockendorf: No it's not, unfortunately. 32 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 ~ . Jan Lash: I know and that's what's really hard. It's really...ru1es and it's out of control and the only thing we can do is try and look out for the future. So I think that means we need to get some money to get some property and then try to move forward so I guess I'd like to see us at least have some message from City Council that you're open to us investigating some possibilities and trying to get fInancing for some of these projects. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. So with that, can we have a recommendation back to the Park and Recreation to sit down with them and discuss this proposal as well as also looking at their 1995 goals and I think we could probably do this sometime maybe in November. Early part. Somewhere in that particular time. Councilman Wing: I don't care about their goals. I want to have a work session to discuss this item. Mayor Chmiel: Well rather than to have another one, I think we could work two into one rather than just that one. I'm just trying to free up your evenings. So if someone would make a recommendation. Jim Andrews: After consultation with the other members, I volunteered to speak for them. I personally feel that this issue deserves separate attention...! would recommend that it be given that Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I appreciate that Jim but with the amount of meetings that we go through, I'd like to see this put the two together and yet still address both of those particular issues. . Councilman Wing: Well Jim, just make sure this is first. Mayor Chmiel: That's right. Put your goals second. . Councilman Mason: I think we can work the two out and I understand what you folks are saying but I do think if this comes frrst, I bet your goals will go pretty quick. But I defInitely, this defInitely needs to be take a look, it's not even 10:00 and I can't talk. Well, yeah. Let's do it. This needs to be looked at and I too share the concern of all the park commissioners that have spoken tonight on parkland in the city of Chanhassen. Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Is that a motion? Councilman Mason: Sure. That it go to a work session. Councilman Wing: Second. Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Discussion. Councilman Wing: I'm not sure if this is in order. Mayor Chmiel: Try it. Councilman Wing: I want to be on record as saying that I strongly support this. Of all the tax dollars that I spend and have taken from me, that is used for good purposes and bad and if I ever take a hit in taxes or the city has to raise my taxes, this is so long term to the future of this community that this is one item that I want to support. Kind of like a charitable contribution if you will. I watched the argument over Bluff Creek and what's happened down there. I watched the Lake Lucy watershed, or the Lake Ann watershed disintegrate under 33 . . . . City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 housing and I said, why dido't the city have the foresight to buy that. So from Lake Lucy all the way down to Lake Ann Park, that watershed stayed open. Well now there's, well it's all paved over now. And then Lake St. Joe. One of the big pictures at home is my family on our bikes with the sun coming up on Lake St. Joe and the hill in the background. Now I just checked with staff a couple weeks ago and that hill is gone. It's all houses. You know what are we doing? What a mistake so what we're doing here is no longer forward thinking. It's reactive. We're either going to preserve the land and some of the amenities, or it's going to be gone. That's the decision and I'm not saying that we're going to vote to save the land and the amenities but I just want to be on record as saying I am very enthusiastic about this and if you're going to raise my taxes, this is where I want them raised. Mayor Chmiel: As long as you're going to write that check for $250,000.00, we'll accept it. Councilman Wing: Anyway, thank you for letting me make that comment. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Wing seconded that the City Council will hold a work session to discuss the 1995 Park, Open Space and Trail Acquisition and Development Referendum. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A RECREATIONAL BEACH LOT FOR MINNEW ASHT A LANDINGS ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF. LOCATED AT THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF IDGHWAY 7 AND MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY. KEN DURR. John Rask: Thank you Mr. Mayor and Council members. My name is John Rask. I believe I've met you all at one point or another but it's probably been a while. This beachlot is a part of a Minnewashta subdivision. I believe you saw this last, it received fmal plat approval on March 28th of this year. At the time of the subdivision approval, Outlot A was guided for a recreational beachlot. However, no formal application was submitted at that time so that's why the applicant is here before us this evening. I'm going to just briefly go over a few of the improvements to be constructed on the beachlot and give you a general overview of the beachlot. There already has been a pond constructed on this site. This pond was constructed for storm water management purposes. The applicant has proposed that a fountain be constructed in the center of the pond. A gazebo has been proposed towards the center of the lot. Staff has recommended that a gazebo not be allowed as Section 20-263 prohibits structures on beachlots. This item was talked about extensively at the Planning Commission. The Commission agreed with the staff's interpretation. However, they would like to see this Section of the Code amended to allow for gazebo type structures on beachlots. In addition there's a toilet facility proposed on the beachlot. It will be screened from view with a fence screen and landscape plan as shown on the site plan here. Service contract has been provided. The applicant will be required to get an annual permit and remove the chemical toilet from this site on an annual basis. All requirements of Section 20-263 must be complied with also. The applicant proposes one dock with a maximum of 3 boat slips. Access to the dock will be provided by a paved surface trail. The whole area will be sodded and an irrigation system installed. The proposal also calls for 4 canoe racks to be located between the pond and the lake. All the natural vegetation as shown on the site plan will be preserved and additional landscape plans will be added, at least in the number shown on the plan here. The Planning Commission held a public hearing on September 21st to review this beachlot. The commission unanimously recommended approval of the conditional use permit subject to the 5 conditions. I guess in general the applicant has demonstrated the proposed use to...requirements and standards of the ordinance. The beachlot preserves the natural vegetation as well as provides additional landscape to buffer the site from surrounding properties. Staff believes the beachlot will serve as an attractive entrance to the subdivision and is thus recommending approval of it. We're here to answer any questions. 34 ~ 0--. I "<\ '- \ <::J '-. ., .. .. ~........., :s'V .~ -::S ') ~ ~ j , "- - "~' !i,l!ij~;ll.' -J'lj'~l> , IJ! 5 1lO.- II f. d .~ . -::.5 .:!ICJ:i I.. 'I sjj:: ;; ___ {UJ~t~'P IlEoill .'~ '..1 E~ .e.! J~-II! I. S!!J . .i.IJ.~e ~Ii::=,-;'I S.I Jil . E =.!~:~ ~-5 ~ R.J I!,; U' . 1 E .Ji! ft 111 .:a..s .c: i.. .5IJtOllli.-.f .! g'bp:j=:: l. ::J!CJ1 1 11 ~ ii. ~ IF I' " 111 & II 'S;!.5.j- . i- :2.~ g j ~ j . 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E ':1-= ~j l'j~'~I. .; 11,;11'1' &..~ c: 8 O~ -5 i x:l.! i. . as 1Z'j f.~l:. ~ liI'i i!! 1 .~i .c _oS - b 1; lI'C ~ 1-8 b 1.1 i.s i . JO g..li ~-s J'~.!.!! 2 t-S,j'i'SI. j'1~ 1:1.5 1:::,5-5l'1.:'i'~ . 0 i S l~l81 ~.a' Ilil'il: ..:. !i1: ~.I.s~i1,~ j:: 'S.J .- ~- 'll:l! - Il'iii'Oi:'.lf ;:. . (.):" CJ ; Ii 8 !IP~ i -I. "..s i "-: : :.~ 105 g 1 aU liU" S liI ~ .: C. .. "jCJ~i l'i3IE'~! ~.!. :.J'~ .~ .... Jt ::: c.!UC a. 0 i Q :t:1f . ~ i: !1Z e1 c:::C I:.i-l . '1.5 .~ O. ~ :! ~i ~ If~i='l~" il ~ · u i I i.rj"l i 'i. IS j' O . ~~ u c:l iu 31 8.sjv;:i! It :: . ilJo\ -l!C ~ u Sit J~ 8 ClIl >.8: t . . :I l5'~:r Q ~.5 u.... ~ . . . . . . d October 13 1994 Page 4 _ Ch.nh....n VlII.ger - Thurs ay. .. . Pursue park referendum task force Editorial The Chanhassen Park and Recreation Commis- sion's push for the formation of a task force to look into a referendum for the city's park system shouldn't be met with stiff opposition. If you step back and see how Chanhassen's open lan4 is being gulped down by developers, you know that the city's opportunities for captur- ing some of the natural beauty that enhances the livability of an area are dwindling fast. It is time for action on the part of the city. and none too soon. For homeowners who have invested heavily into their properties. well equipped parks and open spaces with trails can be seen as only a benefit and an asset when it's time to sell and move on. Granted. the scope and cost of the referendum has not been determined. But a task force - com- prised of citizens. business and government mem- bers alike - devoted to investigating the issue is a good first step in gaining public support for this important decision. DeaD Trippler ~ ()~ - (O-~O-1~ . ~Park:referendum .,. . What's the plari and what are we buying here? By Tim McGee . ," ..' ~mission must ad quickly to Th~ park behind our home is . . ..' keep ~e~ of the game. My . beginning to take shape. I appr'CCl_ question IS whether the board IS ate the park board's ability to prepared to ad quickly. Acting . preserve space in my neighborhood quickly is much more than deciding \ for a park. And now that the board what dollar amount to put forth to . is forming a commission to ask us the residents ofChanhassen. for more money to support such . What is needed here is a detailed endeavors, my farst reaction is to plan. What land is targeted for sale? support them in their efforts. . What are the plans for the land once There is a small voice from it is purchased? What's the timeta- within, however, that says, "Hold ble for development of those IlUlds? on. What are they asking for?" These are questions which should I've been to one meeting of the Tun McGee be answered, must be answered, I Paries and Recreation board. Our before the question of how much it neighborhood was invited to discuss It seems to me! costs is asked. While I, personally, the future of parkland behind our would support a detailed plan for homes. The meeting began at 7 p.m. not require money were tabled until building parklands in our communi- and it became apparent that our the board could receive "more ty, I w,ill not write a blank check. neighborhood park was not first on information." . It seems to me that giving the the list. I, along with a large . I left the meeting feeling park board enough money to act is contingency of homeowners tTom cheated. While part of my displea- not enough to provoke action. The the neighborhood, waited until after sure was with being invited to a board I saw in action was a board 9 p.m. until that for which we were meeting in which there was no way unable and seemingly unwilling to invited became the topic of discus- to make a decision on that which we take action. We need to see what sion. . were discussing, part of it also was a actions they plan and how and when After a spirited debate between displeasure with the process. I they intend to implement those neighbors and board members, the watched a board examine issue after actions. discussion was tabled. We were told issue and not come to any decision My advice to the commission that the decision on what sort of whatsoever. With each issue, the formed to study the referendum: get . park would take shape wouldn't board either needed more time, your information in place now, need to happen right away an~ay more information or more money. I before you ask for my money. The{ because the money wasn't avaIlable truly believe the discussions on each only thing worse than asking for 4 for another.three to five years. I had issue would have been shorter if the money is not having a clear plan fdr seen many ISs~ come before the board had the ability or the incUna- it once you get it. '. : . pro dW evenms and had not seen lion to say, "OK, let's go with it" or ' the board act on a single occasion. . "No, we won't support that." (fim McGee is a Cba.hase. While many seemed to be issues of Todd Hoffinan, director ofparks resident and reaular columDilt for available fUnds, even those thal did and recreation, has said that the tile JIUl.,U.) . ,', "., ,.' . ~ . . , ... , ,...4.... . ~. ~,.,..~ . CITY OF CHANHASSEN Lf~ 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM TO: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor rp'it FROM: DATE: October 18, 1994 SUBJ: Senior Center Activity An update on senior activities will be a monthly report for the commission beginning this fall, so you can keep in touch with what happens .in the~ower level of city hall. . Septemberfest: This activity went well with over $500 being raised by the seniors to help offset costs incurred by supplies used, buses hired or special projects. Lutheran Brotherhood Grant: A $400 grant was donated by this group for use at the senior center. Because they want their grant used for a permanent object, the Senior Center Advisory Board has approved the building of an entertainment center for the television and VCR equipment pieces. Senior Chorus (CHAN-o-Iaires): This group has grown to approximately 30 seniors and they have been practicing on Fridays in the senior center and performing once a month at various senior complexes. centers, and atc;hurches.<Theyare..feally.getting organized and have appointed each member to a committee for costumes, music, set up, refreshments, etc. Saturday Night Specials: Southern "Night was the. Qctoi:>er..speciafand22 seniors attended this southern style meal with entertainment. Miscellaneous Programs: Aerobics: Has 10-12 participants. Movie: In September we showed the "Pelican Brief" and had 12 people. The October movie is "Big." . Mr. Todd Hoffman October 18, 1994 Page 2 Men's Club: Had Dick Mingo as speaker this month, who is a Minnesota Twins Clinician. Women's Club: Had Paul Marvelous from the Carver County Historical Society as a speaker in September. Harmony Trip: Amish country was seen by 11 of our Chanhassen seniors. This trip was run in conjunction with Waconia and School District 112 Community Education Departments. Cribbage Tournament: Had 6 entries. All had fun. Gift certificates were given as pnzes. Ongoing Activities: Bridge, Card Club, bingo, crafts and wood carving are all running smoothly and open to new people. . . . .. . . . CITY OF CHAHHASSEH 46 , 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM TO: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director FROM: Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor /~ DATE: October 18, 1994 SUBJ: 1994 Summer Softball Evaluation The Chanhassen summer softball program increased by one team over last year to 68 in 1994. With our current facilities, three out of five nights were operating at full capacity. The other two nights at Lake Ann are being fully utilized ByChanhassen's youth league and our other Chanhassen adult leagues. Comments received from evaluation forms were reviewed and will be discussed throughout this memo. It is beneficial to review each league separately. I will start with the Corporate League and then continue with Women's, Over 35, Men's Open and Co-Rec. Corporate League The Corporate League had the maximum number of teams again this year (16). This league had teams on the waiting list. Had we had more facilities available, the league could have grown, creating additional revenue. The league switched to an extended season instead of having an in-house tournament this Year. The majority oftheeyaluations .favor~d the extended season if the last game of the season had counted. The last regular~son game was organized for teams to play teams who had similar records in the .finalstandings. For example, Team #1 played Team #2andTealll #3 Played T~#4,etc. If teams would like the last game to count to keep interest levels .up, lhave no problem with that. The extended season will be reviewed again next season. Women's League The Tuesday night Women's League decreased by one team again this year. The league consisted of seven teams, which was smaller than I had hoped for. I would like to see this league increase, but in a way it is nice to have the extra fields available on Tuesday nights to Mr. Todd Hoffman October 18, 1994 Page 2 . accommodate the rapid growth of our youth associations. I will certainly try to increase the league next year. Over 35 At the annual league meeting, this league elected not to have two separate divisions as they did last year. Having one division with 13 teams was appealing because teams could play against the teams they have been playing with for many years. The league elected not to purchase state tournament berths because the interest level for attending the state tournament has dropped. To replace the state tournament, a pool play tournament was offered instead. The teams enjoyed the idea of the tournament, but were not thrilled with playing multiple games in one day. The tournament can continue next year, but only if their season is shorter to accommodate the tournament games. I believe that for the most part everyone was satisfied with the league. Men's Open The Men's Open League had 16 teams this year, which was the-maximum allowed. The use of Lake Ann #1 was eliminated for adult softball and will be used exclusively for youth baseball. This league also enjoyed the extended season versus the in-house tournament. . Co.Rec The Co-Rec League had 16 teams this year and played in two separate divisions. The league increased by 5 teams over last year and currently the league is at its maximum number. The level of play in the upper and lower divisions was very competitive. The Chaska Bell team from the upper division went on to take first place in the Co-Rec State 11/12 inch tournament hosted in Chanhassen. General Comments from Evaluation Forms * * Eliminate fees for parking at Lake Ann. Make rain out games up during the 4th of July week and other week nights versus having them on weekends. Liked extended season. Players would like lights added to Lake Ann Fields. Keep Leisure Line. Keep plaques - would like individual trophies. Implement an over 40 League instead of Over 35 League. Need to find more reliable umpires. * * * * * * . . PROGRAM NAME: Iqq~ !ic,ltf It 5UM)i)tr 5:J!rbC?/) @)F w SP QUARTERS PROGRAM IS OFFERED: Participants in each class Length of class (in weeks) Length of class (minutes) Meetings/W eek Class fee/session REVE1\TUE 6g' "tz'clW6 x 370,[v x = dfts~, t-C #I of participants fee/class #I of classes/yr. EXPENSES . A. Salaries (Includes Prep Time) staff x $/hour x hours/week x weeks x #I of classes/year = staff x $/hour x hours/week x weeks x #I of classes/year = staff x $/hour x hours/week x weeks x f of classes/year = I t A. Total Salaries: $ . B. Contractual Services: u. W\ P i l--r .> STatr:' Bt'r7lV Svtnc.:HNJ f?e' l{ W.p;'re CoD"iJI LeJ5~rt. L,~e. 'hI >sc:. 54FP/)("f. r-r .:;, ~ I ..:> c-' IltIC, ~o I () g?J/ tD 'f{J/e-, CO 73>-' lCJ J~.tXJ .~ If ~S3, 5v . 1. Bus Rental: buses x cost/bus x 4# of rentals/year -= S 2. Miscellaneous Services (Account for 'Whole Year): Rental Equipment: Entenainment: l B. Total Contractural Services: $ I 1. Craft Supplies: 5tfiOq 1/,5 . ~~rti5/A'tJ~{Jf..s Dt-/ (l.lrV &ilflkitJ) 'f >tff 0~ _ i-J 4o~. 3/ ~ql, 517 4 d5". t:('. C. Supplies (Account for Whole Year) $ .!:> 1./ (). 7, i &" 2. Equipment: 3. Tickets: participants x cost/ticket x times/year = . I I C. Total Supplies: $ TOT AL REVENUE: TOTAL EXPENSE: BALANCE: 70S-dO, [KJ I~ 974, ~8 1- 9515'. 3~ . . . . CITY OF CHANHASSEN LIe 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM TO: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director FROM: 7K Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor DATE: October 18, 1994 SUBJ: Fall Softball Evaluation The Fall Softball League played only one night this year-- Thursdays. The Men's Open League had seven teams which was down from last year when the league had 15 teams. Every team in the league played ten regular season gll111es and then 2-3 games in the in-house tournament. All games had a 55 minute time limit with a 3/2 no courtesy ball count. This worked out good because we needed to hustle and get the games played when darkness became an issue. The league gave teams a chance to get more games in before they hung up the softball spikes for the year. Teams. that played enjoyed themselves. This year the Co-Rec and Women's Fall League didn't but I will continue to offer it again next year. enough interest to form a league, \ PROGRAM NAME: Ad lA rr F411 QUARTERS PROGRAM IS OFFERED: So fTbcl ) J SU @ W . SP Participants in each class Length of class (minutes) Class fee/session Length of class (in weeks) Meetings/W eek REVEJ\VE .p J57S, tJo 7 '~j(l;n!?-diCr x f:J.3S [f) x = t of panicipants fee/class f of classes/yr. EXPENSES . A. Salaries (Includes Prep Time) staff x $!hour x hours/week x . weeks x f of classes/year = staff x $!hour x hours/week x weeks x f of classes/year = staff x $/hour x bourslweek x weeks x f of classeslyear -= t A. Total Salaries: $ I . (). MP/ re.5 ~ 'h~ f>fr Jh.5 .5ftT)("h"~IV A>t:;;, " UWlf) Ct,"'CrJ' .f7COlaJ 01 (!)G\ . t:LJ 7 (!) . ():) ?3s-c . B. Contractual Services: 4/ (, 1-/3 .s7.? 1. Bus Rental: buses x cost/bus x 4# of rentals/year = $ 2. Miscellaneous Services (Account for Whole Year): Rental Equipment: Entertainment: ~ B. Total ContracturaJ Services: $ I 5Y(;/t; It 4d3 too C. Supplies (Account for Whole Year) . t9wa fiQCtlt!..5 I d~'t.V - 1. Craft Supplies: /f 3 ,({;C 2. Equipment: . 3. Tickets: participants x cost/ticket x times/year = I C. Total Supplies: $ I TOTAL REVENUE: TOTAL EXPENSE: BALANCE: :J; /57~- (10 ; ISfS7. ID - I;), /0 . . CITY OF CHANHASSEN LfcL 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM TO: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director FROM: Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor SUBJ: 1994 Halloween Party 1~ DATE: October 18, 1994 . Chanhassen's Annual Halloween Party is scheduled for Monday, October 31 from 7:00-9:00 p.m. at Chanhassen Elementary School. A fee Qf$2.00 covers all scheduled activities. The time was switched to 7:00 p.m. because the Coriununity Education Mter School Program will be in school at least until 5:30 or 6:00 p.m. Having the later start time will allow more time to get the party ready. The party will include trick-or-treating, a hayride, refreshments and plenty of fun. A letter was sent to all of our special eV~I1t sponsors to ask for volunteers. Volunteers are needed for set up, clean up, refreshments, registration, greeters, costumed characters, hayrides and more. I have received a few phon.e calls from sponsors that would like to volunteer, but we need more. I'll be making phone calls to gain more volunteers. At our next Park and Recreation meeting, I will ask coriunissioners if they to assist us in preparing for this annual event. . . CITY OF CHANHASSEN ~ 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM FROM: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor D.~ TO: DATE: October 17, 1994 SUBJ: Winter Newsletter Changes As you may be noticing, each newsletter has been gradually changing in some way. The last four newsletters have taken on a new look and a similar theme, use of three columns, more photos and a different style of type. . The next four newsletters present a different challenge in that more will be done in-house. With the computer capabilities we have at the city now, almost all of the layout can be done with the assistance of a designer to help ~jth the cover and outside help with photo scanning. Of course, printing is still an outside job and always will be. The real challenge is in presenting an interesting "community newsletter," not just a park and recreation brochure. Coming up with new ways to write tije same article each year or season is difficult, not to mention finding time to write new articl~~1 Because the newsletter is in a transitional stage, I would welcome suggestions from anyone as to what they would like to see <in this newsletter or future newsletters. For the spring newsletter, I will. be asking for one representative frogteacl:1deparunent in a newsletter meeting in. order to get a better handle on what is C()rrrln.gup. thing I will be asking for is photo opportunities from each department. Hopefully the changes that will occur in the improve readability, generate interest in city decrease outside costs. series will be ones that will increase program registration, and . . . . CITY OF CHANHASSEN 6b 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739 TO: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director FROM: Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor DATE: October 19, 1994 SUBJ: Ballfield Reservations Policy As discussed at the last Park and Recreation meeting, the commission directed me to develop a policy for reserving ballfields on weekends and permitting use in neighborhood parks for organized sports. First of all I will address practices and games at our community parks, and secondly, the elimination of smaller neighborhood parks for organized sports. It is staff's recommendation that: . Lake Ann Park may be scheduled for practices and games by non-profit organizations who provide services to youth under 18 years of age on weekends on Fields Nos. 1, 2, 5 and 6 depending upon availability. Lake Ann Field Nos. 3 and 4 will not be scheduled and will be kept available for park user~ and picnickers. . Lake Susan Park may be scheduled by non-profit organizations who provide services to youth under 18 years for practices and games on 'Weekends but not between the hours of 12:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. These blocked-ollt times were established in order to serve the requests and needs of our scheduled picnics and general use of the park. . Looking at scheduled.activities inneighborh<X>dPBJ"~.it..~~tafC~ r~c()~endation that until the n~w Chanhassen Recreation Center outdoor facilities ar~pomplete, that the Park and Recreation Commission allow the use of scheduled.games and practices in the neighborhood parks Of Carver BeachPark<andlijceMarsh Lake Park. The Park and Recreation Commission will review the..availability of the new recreation center's fields during early spring of 1996 andi.make the decision at that time to allow or discontinue the use of these two neighQqrhood parks for scheduled activities. If the grass at the new fields is established enough at that time, eliminate use at Carver Beach and Rice Marsh Lake Parks. This should give the Park and Recreation Commission the information they need to finalize a policy as it relates to these two issues. . . . 7 - CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING AUGUST 9, 1994 Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Jan Lash, Ron Roeser, Jim Manders and Dave Huffman MEMBERS ABSENT: Fred Berg and Jane Meger ST AFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director APPROV AL OF AGENDA: Andrews: Are there any additions to the agenda that need to be made at this time? Todd, for your information I've asked Mr. Melby to present his letter here at the Visitor Presentation. VISITOR PRESENT A TIONS: Andrews: The fIrst thing on our agenda tonight is Visitor Presentations. We have received a letter from Mr. Melby who'd like to come forward at this time and. Jack Melby: Good evening. I'm not sure if...but I guess I just wanted to address the letter that I wrote to you dated July 28th of this year. As I said, my name is Jack Melby. I live at 40 Hill Street. I've been at that residence since 1976. June of '76 and I've witnessed a lot of the changes that have occurred with the city. The thing that, the change that has impacted us the most is the public access. During the planning stages and during the City Council meetings, etc. all the things that were planned for that piece of land. One of the things that wasn't planned was that drainage ditch. It's about 70-80 yard drainage ditch...and during that process they also said that the park would be relatively policed. In other words, the rules were going to be similar to 10:00 at night, the park would close and it would open at 6:00 to 6:30 in the morning and that has not been the case. We have recreational users using that access pretty much round the clock. Saturday mornings, 4:00-5:00 in the morning it's not uncommon to be...almost every Saturday and Sunday morning with recreational boat users and... In the wintertime we've got snowmobilers and fishermen and so forth and so on with 4 wheel trucks going up and down that hill so we have constant use of that access and constant interruption to our lives. Some of the concerns have been mentioned in the letter. People that use the park, they have easy access to my property. I am constantly on weekends asking people to leave. I don't know what happens during the week because both my wife and I work and I'm not so sure what happens during the week. There have been attempts to burglar my boat. There have been attempts, all kinds of rocks thrown at it. Things like that. As I mentioned in the letter I'd like to buy a new boat but I don't feel comfortable doing 1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 that or getting a new dock until I have some assurance that I can...On that same side of my property there's a fence that goes part way up the property and all park users use that hill in the winter time and use my yard as their run up for sliding. And I don't mind that so much but I worry about if someone gets hurt and if there's any liability on my part. I don't mind kids playing there but I certainly don't want them to get hurt and me being liable for their injuries. So I think you're aware that there are ordinances. For example I can't cut my grass on Sunday. It makes too much noise. And I can't cut my grass before 9:00 on Saturday morning. And I've been told that..but the access is open to...round the clock. So I'm hoping that you'll pay attention to the rules down there, or any public access. This access it not out in the wilderness, it's in the middle of a neighborhood. The use there is constant. On a nice weekend, when I would like to go out and use it, I don't. What I've done, 5 years ago I bought a place up north. Here I live on a lake but I can't use it. I have to drive 4 hours to go up north and try to get some peace and quiet. I'd like to use the lake that I live on and pay taxes to do so. I don't know if I've covered everything in the letter. I think I have. I think I mentioned the key points that I'm concerned about. The ditch is a real sore spot with me. That wasn't part of the original plan. The city now is running all that surface water into that ditch and supposedly there's general filtering that takes place. I think we have all become familiar with a lot of things that are on the surface that gets washed into the lake. That's going right into my beach. All that water is going directly into my beach. There's another runoff just to the east of me where the city of Eden Prairie now is running all their runoff under Highway 101 and down into Lotus Lake. So we get a double whammy but I do know this. The silt from the runoff has turned my beach into muck and I'm also blessed now with milfoil. I'm sure I was the fIrst one that got milfoil because of my close proximity to the access. Some time ago I talked to a young lady...access and I just asked her what her function was and she said she checked boats for milfoil before they're allowed to enter Lotus Lake. Well I suggested that she check them before they leave. I think it's too late now to concern ourselves much with milfoil. It's there and it's beyond belief. It grows something fIerce. So that's what's happened. To me that access has been open we have constant noise from it. Round the clock noise. The general idea of policing that access, none of those ideas have taken place so I'm asking you to pay attention to that. I would like to see my property a little bit more protected. I'd like that fence extended. I don't know what that's going to do but I'd like to, like I said earlier, buy a new boat, put up a new dock and I'd like some kind of idea what to expect from...sliding down there. Am I liable if there's any injuries? I would guess that's a possibility. I guess that's it. I'm just getting too much and I'd like you to consider all the things that are they say on the signs down there. No dogs. Or dogs on leashes. People come down there and they use the park to walk their dogs and a lot of times they come over and use my yard...!t just gets to be unlimited access, unlimited usage. We're getting too much abuse there. Now that you mentioned...but I used to be nice when I asked people to leave and that didn't work. Now I'm not nasty to them but I'm not nicely asking them to leave. That works. However, that concerns me. What kind of retribution am I 2 . . . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 going to ~et or is it possible...going to come back at night and really...my boat. They've tried a couple tImes. Would that really happen. Or throw rocks at my house or whatever. Kids or adults would do. So I think we've taken our share and we need some help from you guys or from the city. I don't know who all shares all the responsibilities. When I talk to people, well the city's got this part of that thing and Park and Rec's got this part of that thing and someone else has got this part of that thing. Unfortunately for me we've got all of that thing. Thank you. Andrews: Thank you. With the agreement of the rest of the commission I'd like to put this on as an agenda for September, Todd. Is that alright. Were there any other visitor presentations at this time? Please step forward and state your name for the record please. Lash: Jim, before we move on. Mr. Melby, I'm assuming you'll be here in September. Jack Melby: Yes. Lash: Okay. If you have any ideas of your own that would be possible solutions for us, I'd like you to let Todd know those so he can see those before... Jim Ostenson: My name is Jim Ostenson. I'm with Tandem Properties. We're the developers of Mission Hills project. ...tonight as a result of the meeting we had with the city today. City staff. I think for informational purposes to let you know what was approved by the City Council, as requested by you. At the time we were going through our preliminary plat approvals there was discussion as to what kind of park facilities were being provided in Mission Hills subdivision. It's basically a townhouse subdivision with just a few, about 16 single family lots with private roads, private utilities in a townhouse area and we had proposed a private park in there as well. And it was suggested by both yourselves and the Planning Commission that it be moved in size to 1 1/2 acres. We did that and the preliminary plat was approved by all the commissions, including the City Council and the plat that you see is the one that was approved. Todd, do you want to point that out? It's kind of a lineal. It's along 86th Street and goes all the way over to our private drive. Where it indicates tot park is actually where we would put a play sculpture in for small children. In the larger area to the north is where we would look at having play fields, possibly volleyball facilities, horseshoes, whatever might go in there. The plan that was approved includes a pond which is basically a NURP pond adjacent to the wetlands. It was approved by the City Council. We're coming back to you tonight to let you know that that NURP pond is in the park area. The NURP pond is approximately .3 of an acre and again is the same plat that was approved by everyone else. We wanted you to be aware of that also. The staff today asked that we look at, I guess I'll say reconfiguring that pond. Seeing if it can be down 3 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . sized. We had shown it larger on some earlier grading plans and that we had come back with a plan that's this size. We had another design, if we can get that overlay Todd. Lash: Before you do that, can you point out where the pond... Hoffman: It's the dashed line. Jim Ostenson: It's that dashed line right there. It's adjacent to the wetlands. Lash: Which leaves how much acreage? Jim Ostenson: It would leave then 1.2. Slightly over 1.2. Lash: Is that including the tot park? Jim Ostenson: Yes. Lash: So that's about, what would that be? Less than an acre. Jim Ostenson: Well I would say it would be at least an acre. At least an acre because it's . smaller, much smaller portion to the pond. We wanted to have the play sculpture to the south, you know further away from the wetlands and that the area there would be a field area. We have reconfigured the pond to be more parallel to 86th Street. It has the same amount of capacity in that but we felt that it would make for a more contiguous park. Todd had just informed us before the meeting that the staff prefers the other configuration instead. That's new to us but I guess we'll talk to him about that. But the area that is south of the wetland, as we show it there is, it averages, it's 220 feet across on the north. Just to the south of the NURP pond and at the bottom part, it's 180 feet across and it's a distance of 150 feet deep. So it's basically 50 yards by 70 yards, which is a substantial area and it would have a volleyball court and several other field oriented recreational activities that could be there as well as having an open area. Andrews: I have a question. Are these townhouses, do they have ownership of property or is there no private properties at all, common ground? Jim Ostenson: It's all common ground. Like all townhouses. Andrews: So the area that you're talking about is from the foundation line or from some property line. 4 . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 Jim Ostenson: This would be part of the common area. The people own, correct me if I'm wrong, Dennis Marhula with Westwood Engineering, our consultant is here tonight also but the way all townhouses are platted, the people own the land directly underneath them and that would be the case here too. This would be common area that would be owned and maintained by the homeowners association. It's not a separate outlot Dennis Marhula: When we measured the acre and a half, we did not measure to the foundation, if that's your question. We measured to 20 feet from the foundation. Andrews: Okay, that's why I was asking. Dennis Marhula: It provides quite a bit open space before we... Andrews: Right, that's exactly why I asked the question. Very good. That's why I asked the question. I figured people are going to have barbecues or a swing set or something out and we don't. Dennis Marhula: The acre and a half is not measured from the foundation. Andrews: Okay, thank you for that. Jim Ostenson: So again, we just wanted to make you aware of that. Again, as you request this plan that was approved and that we'll be grading the development and getting it approved. Lash: I guess I have a question how this could have gone and been approved by all the commissions when it wasn't approved by us and then it went on to City Council. I mean you're basically telling us this is the way it's going to be and you're letting us know as a courtesy. Jim Ostenson: No, I don't think so. Or I'll let Todd speak. It's my understanding this is the plan that was approved by you. Hoffman: The clarification that I certainly can make. Once when I don't recall that you saw this at your...meeting when you went back. You saw the old plan and the acre and a half still was not indicated at that time is my recollection. Andrews: That is correct That's what happened. 5 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . Hoffman: You sent them back and said, show the acre and a half. If you do that, that's our condition of approval to the City Council. So something very similar to this plan came before the City Council so we're assuming that the applicant is showing the 1.5 acres of open space. Now whether or not that included a pond at that time, was unclear. So now they're coming back and saying in fact that was just disclosed before the meeting that it did include that pond but then it still does not meet your condition of approval which is to add 1.5 acres unless you would allow the pond to be in that 1.5 acres. So just because of the fact that this went before the City Council and was approved, the condition of approval was still that it requires 1.5 acres of land. Huffman: So at this point there's still not 1.5 acres of land. Hoffman: No, there is not. So the pond was much greater today in the meeting at 9:00 this morning. We met with staff. The City engineering department, planners and the applicant and the applicant's consultant. So the compromise at that point was to be that I would recommend that this is a compromise situation. The pond was reduced by 50% and then it would be included within a park. We have 1.3 acres of park space of dry land and then .34 acre pond on the site. So it's not dry property but then again, I..would simply turn that compromise to you and whatever your decision, if you decide to accept that or not. Andrews: All I can say is that as a commission member that this has been a frustrating project for us to deal with. We've made our request known but this year and last year thinking that in both cases those requests were understood and yet now for a second time they come back with a response that it doesn't meet what we ask for and now basically what you're asking us to do is to say well, the horses are out of the barn. It's too late and my feeling is that I still would prefer to see that 1.5 acres because I think it needs to be there for a project of this size. If there were to be a compromise given, I would say that no credit for parkland should be given for the pond area. That pond area is strictly at the convenience of the development. . Jim Ostenson: I don't think we're receiving any credit. Andrews: For the pond. So the reduction in area would result in. Jim Ostenson: We aren't receiving any park credit Andrews: Oh pardon me. That's right, it's PUD. PUD, pardon me. I stand corrected on that one. Lash: And this is a PUD? 6 . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . Hoffman: Correct...reduction in the trail which skirts the wetland...the commission that they would try to develop. Jim Ostenson: I mean this has been equally frustrating for us. We've gone along each step thinking we're doing exactly what's planned for us. Huffman: Well we got into kind of a discussion about that too last time and I obviously have not been here through the whole process but we're going to be talking about another piece of property down supposedly south of Highway 212. Cutting people off. Moving people out. Chopping people up. The reality is, if I'm not mistaken, and I know all my rules and regs but we have what, 1 acre for 75 people in an area. I mean that's supposedly. Lash: Yeah, that's our guideline although I do think that we already had made some compromises and concessions given in the nature of this development. Although to the best of my recollection, and I was here from the beginning, I think we were fairly clear in the beginning what we were looking for and I know specifically in June we were very clear when we said we wanted 1.5 acres. And I'm frustrated with the fact that this plan has gone to the other commissions, been approved and gone to City Council and been approved when we very clearly stated we wanted 1.5 acres and we are not getting 1.5 acres. . Jim Ostenson: But this shows 1.3. Lash: Which is not 1.5. Huffman: And it's not all land. Jim Ostenson: 1.3 of land. Huffman: Which is still not 1.5. Lash: I mean I know it seems like a negliable amount to you guys but we already felt like we had reduced what we normally would want considerably when we came down to 1.5 and so I think we already felt like we had compromised about as far as we were willing to go on this given the fact that it is a PUD. And the frustration is that it keeps coming back, clearly not what we have asked for. Andrews: I would assume that engineering requirements, you had to put that pond somewhere near that wetland because that's the natural collection area for the water. . 7 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . Hoffman: Well the pond, it would be engineering's preference to see it relocated and not even on this site but it does change the plan and that's where the horses are out of the barn and...changes to the plat. They want to get going on their project. Jim Ostenson: We had 7 ponds originally and they asked us to reduce it down to 3. We're at 4 and the runoff's and the calculations I guess, seem to be satisfactory with them. One thing that's happening too is that the city has decided that they may not want to make some permanent storage pond I guess and as a result the ponds that we thought were going to be temporary...morning or in the last couple days are now going to be permanent. So that's another change that has happened since the City Council approval. Andrews: And none of those would give you the possible alternative of taking this, this particular pond storage water and putting it one of these other now permanent sites? No. Dennis Marhula: One of the concerns that...is obviously recharging that wetland and maintaining the integrity of the wetland. So we aren't trying to...as much water into that wetland as we can through the pond. Our understanding from earlier discussions were that there would be major ponding facilities to the east of this site which would take care of the ponding and the storm water treatment for a good portion of this site and to all this other property to the east. And there's been some change in thoughts and philosophy...which will . have an impact on what we are required to do on site. And part of that is the need for a pond in that general vicinity to maintain the recharge into that large wetland and maintain the integrity of that wetland. There will be recharge from the pond from the area to the east of that wetland and of course to that commercial area will also act to help recharge that wetland. So it's felt like this location is required as well. So to relocate that pond to some other area on the site and change the drainage patterns really, it's not an option. Jim Ostenson: One of the other things that has to happen too is that, and there are more than just park issues that are involved in the site obviously and the City Council, one of the reasons...planning was done and the approvals were granted is that it's providing alternative housing and more affordable housing for people which is something that Chanhassen wants and for us to go back now and redo the plan. Take out units. We have the same amount of improvement costs and everything else, and the cost. Huffman: Why should people who want affordable housing be denied that extra park area also? I mean we also want affordable housing and we also want those wonderful things, where are they to go? They have potentially 212 on the south side. They've got 86th. They're cut off with TH 101. Where are they going to go? I mean I understand the City Council's also been known to throw some good things out there for all of us. 8 . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 Jim Ostenson: These people are, I mean they're paying full park fees. We're given no credit. We're providing a private park and we're installing all of our own private play sculptures and everything else. There's no city assistance or anything that's going into this development. Huffman: When you go and you're gone in 5 years from now and that becomes our park and we take it over and those kind of things, absolutely. Jim Ostenson: I don't know that it is. Huffman: Well, I'd like to prepare for that. Lash: Will the maintenance, that's a good point though Dave. Will the maintenance and the upkeep be paid by some type of a townhouse association? Jim Ostenson: Right. Exactly. Just as their streets are plowed and the garbage collected and everything else. Andrews: Todd, you had a point. Hoffman: Yeah. The other side of the story is off site potential permanent ponding, even if it was to be developed in 5 or 10 years, you would still have a temporary pond located smack dab in the middle of this open field and they would be here before this evening asking for that to be approved to be there for 3 or 5 or 10 years. So it's not that it's. Andrews: We need to accommodate the water on this project basically. Hoffman: Yeah. Andrews: Can you put Alternative B back up there again please Todd? Lash: And then I'd like to hear your reasons Todd for, I think I heard somebody say that there was some preference to one plan over the other plan. Andrews: Does B allow a slightly more level site? Hoffman: They both do..,fairly level. Engineering department has a preference on the second one. Andrews: Which is B? 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . Hoffman: Yeah...more linear to the wetland so it's not. Andrews: Okay this is what, alternative A is what engineering prefers? Hoffman: Correct. Andrews: I think Alternative B provides more usable play area. Lash: Although I look at Alternative B as blocking access off of 86th Street. Dennis Marhula: There is a trail system in between the two ponds. A trail along 86th Street that would allow access from 86th Street. Lash: Just to the east? Dennis Marhula: There's a trail system between the wetland and the pond in that strip. Jim Ostenson: Do you want to draw that in Todd so we can point that out. Hoffman: Are they proposing that that trail go down along that pond? . Jim Ostenson: Yes. And all the way down... And then it also goes along 86th Street Lash: Okay. Andrews: Well we need to move ahead on this. I don't think we are being offered an alternative here that we like to choose. My personal preference, if we must choose one, is Alternative B which moves the ponding area closer to 86th Street. I think it provides more usable area and I would move that the Planning Commission reluctantly approve Alternative B. Hoffman: To the City Council? Andrews: To the City Council. Lash: Can we just discuss the difference between A and B? I guess I don't understand why you think that B provides more usable space. 10 . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 Huffman: Does that also keep balls and things and bodies from going up towards 86th Street if you've got the pond up there. Does that give you more buffer from that part of the road too. Does that work better in that area? Jim Ostenson: Well I agree that it gives more contiguous space. A wider space to have recreation if you have the pond up along 86th Street. Plus I really think it's a nice kind of amenity for the whole subdivision and streetscape. Andrews: I just think that a 50 x 70 yard piece is more usable than 100 x 50 yard piece. That's my only reason for preferring it. That and I think if there's the possibility or more "city" property being used as ponding area, if it's closer to the street. It gives us maybe another 10 feet that we can save and I'd like to save every piece that we could. But I underline, this is reluctantly that I do this. I really feel that this shouldn't have come back. I think the pond water should have been accommodated on the site elsewhere but I don't think there's an alternative here. Manders: I guess one comment that I have on this is, I'm not suggesting that there's a lot of options but with the, this being whatever it is, .3 acres, is there !tOme consideration for other compensation for that such as inclusion of play structures or something in addition to the park that could maybe offset that somehow? Andrews: You're already doing it. Jim Ostenson: We will be putting that in. Manders: But in addition to what's going in there to compensate us for that third of an acre. Jim Ostenson: Well it's a private park. Manders: Well I understand that but the point is what we're attempting to accomplish is to provide recreational facilities for that area and given the space isn't there, is there some other means of accomplishing that? Lash: And what is your plan for equipment to go in there? Did you have a dollar amount? Jim Ostenson: I think it's, not really. No. (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 Lash moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to allow the 1.54 acre association park to include .34 acre pond. All voted in favor, except Huffman who opposed, and the motion carried. LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL TO REZONING OF 39 ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED A2 TO RSF. PRELIMINARY PLAT TO CREATE 50 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND 7 OUTLOTS. WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT FOR MITIGATION OF PONDING AREAS. AND CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR ALTERATION OF AREAS WITHIN A FLOOD PLAIN ON PROPERTY LOCATED NORTH OF TWIN CITIES AND WESTERN RAILROAD TRACKS. WEST OF BLUFF CREEK AND EAST OF TIMBERWOOD EST A TES AND STONE CREEK. HERITAGE FIRST ADDITION. HERITAGE DEVELOPMENT COMPANY. Todd Hoffman gave the staff presentation on this item. Andrews: Now Mr. Dietrich, if you'd like to add any comments. John Dietrich: Thank you. John Dietrich from RLK Associates. We're the site planners and landscape architects for Heritage Development on this 39 acre parcel in the Bluff Creek corridor. Mr. Dobbs from Heritage had hoped to be here. I do expect him to be coming in shortly so I think he'll be here... I'd like to mention that Todd's recap of the events, we have been discussing with the city over a number of items regarding how this plan and plat should layout and one of the, I believe critical items is the discussion that had hoped to take place at the City Council and Commission level. When we originally came in with the proposal that we were looking for concept approval of a planned unit development and modifications on the lot size in order to have a greater amount of green space, park dedication areas available. It was felt that there was a non-receptive atmosphere for a reduction to the lots size in order to allow the planned unit development to come in because there were lots that were previously, we had more lots, 56 lots versus the 50 lots that are on the preliminary plat as shown in front of you. The site design, as it is today has been resubmitted as a preliminary plat and not as a planned unit development. It has been submitted with the reduction in lots and was designed to meet all the city codes so that the land could be utilized and be sensitive to the trail corridors, wetlands and as a roadway connections that are necessary between the Chanhassen Corporate Center and school area and Stone Creek subdivision that's south and also respect the increase in size of the lots that are in the Timberwood Estates residential area. The intent was this property would be submitted according to code so that it would have more sensitivity to the land surrounding it while at the same time trying to put in a single family residential development that would have lots of a size, an average size of 19,800 square feet. Maybe if I use the overhead just quickly. As 12 . . . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 previously shown, the 39 acre subdivision currently owned by Heritage Development and abuts next to the Timberwood Estates and is adjacent to the school site that is currently under construction. There is the comprehensive plan that identifies a trail corridor moving north to south along the Bluff Creek corridor and that has been incorporated into the site development and it has been incorporated at a minimum of a 20 foot wide corridor for portions of the trail and in other areas it does expand out wider where it is adjacent to wetlands and adjacent to ponding areas. I'd like to just briefly point out the Year 2000 land use plan that identifies this area and has a distinct residential single family development is the clear space underneath and we have outlined the 39 acre Heritage site as it would fall within the official land use planning map for the city. Identified is the Bluff Creek corridor and open space that is adjacent to the site of primarily along the east side of the site versus the long linear area of the 39 acres which does guide this site for single family residential development at a density of 1.2 to 4 units per acre. The proposal in front of you of the 15 unit subdivision identifies an average density of approximately 1.4 units per acres. So that's at the very lower end of that residential single family development. The preliminary plat was submitted with a site plan, grading plan, utility plan, landscape plan and a tree survey which did include the number of trees that are located on the southern portion of the site. Primarily oaks, maples and basswood. The plan as it is designed looks at taking the roadway from the Stone Creek subdivision and coming through the site in a meandering fashion that has incorporated a number of the comments that were received when we were looking at the planned unit development process of a meandering roadway. Of not lining up the lots in a regimented fashion along the western edge of the site. Trying to work with the topography as well as we can. It is an undulating, rolling hill site so there will be a fair amount of grading in order for the lots to be produced. In addition, there is a wetland on the southern end of the site and this entire area has also been identified as a wetland as well as the area between the property line and the outer edge of this green band all the way along has been identified and delineated by wetland biologists as the edge of the delineated wetland. The proposed area outlined in green is 2 acres. For a 50 unit subdivision, the requirement is 1 acre per 25 residential lots which equates to 1 acre per 75 anticipated residents. We have identified the 2 acre parcel as it would meander and go along the wetland's edge and also go with between a delineated wetland and a ponding area so that it would be removed from the rear of the residential lots. In addition, once it would cross that one arm of Bluff Creek, it would be within the wooded wetland. Within the wooded area which upon walking the site, it would be the lots that are developed there are deep. We would anticipate the lots would be designed so that the maximum number of trees would be retained and that trails would meander along some of the nicer, more wooded areas of the site. We would like to make a point that we would be more than happy to look at different locations for the 2 acres of park property versus the linear system that we have set up. If the 2 acres were to be taken say down in this area, as Todd had mentioned, we would be willing to do that. However, that would then prohibit the trail within that 2 acre parcel running along the outer edge. So we want to be 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . able to have the 2 acre where the city would deem it would be to their best interest. Perhaps it would be best down in this location next to the wetland and the ponding area which we would anticipate would become city owned or city controlled property according to their ordinance already. There is a sidewalk that is currently proposed along the west side of the roadway for the entire length of the property and once we would arrive at the joint property line between Stone Creek and the Heritage parcel, a trail could run down from the roadway and cross the roadway and make access to the pedestrian tunnel that is under the railroad tracks. So there is an opportunity to have a trail come straight up through the roadway as it is now designed and meander along the roadway. This is basically...what is on the overhead where we've identified the two wetland areas that are to remain on site. The green is the 2 acre band of proposed parkland dedication that would... this trail within it. It would be running within the woodland area here. It would then come into the wetland area and there are additional areas in this delineated wetland and back of the lots and ponding areas so that the trail is not strictly within a 20 foot corridor. In this area it's between a wetland pond. It does wrap the rear of these homes here. It does come a little bit closer. But then as it moves to the north, again it bows out where the trail area and it would be 40-50 feet. We'd also suggest potentially at this location that the trail cross the creek and come up along the north side of the creek. The slopes are very severe and then along this back side and I think a trail would be very difficult to have an opportunity to grade that...As a conclusion, we are asking that the Park and Recreation Commission consider our request for a preliminary plat with the design as we put forward. We will be flexible in locating the 2 acres of park dedication as . necessary. The wetland and open space. The wetland and ponding areas will become the additional property of the city and that would total approximately wetlands on the site are 5.3 acres. The ponding areas are about another 2 1/2 acres on the site. So with this parkland dedication of 2 acres, the wetlands and the ponding area are close to 30 acres of area or 9 acres of area that would be controlled by the public, not including the public right-of-way bisecting the site and traversing that. It is our hope that we '11 look at this, discuss it and we'll be able to render a decision so that we may move on towards the Planning Commission and City Council. Andrews: Thank you. John Dietrich: Thank you. Andrews: Todd I have a question, which I think I already know the answer to. To my recollection every development that's come to us with a trail proposed has been given as an easement, not as a parkland dedication. Am I correct in that recollection? Hoffman: In this type of application, correct. 14 . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 Andrews: Okay. Hoffman: ...city would have a trail as a park. Andrews: Yes, but normally in a development when we're, the one I remember most recently is the Lundgren development where we asked for a trail along the southern border of the development. I don't believe there was any park credit given for that trail. There was an easement requested and granted that would connect a large portion of that property with other trails and that was done as an easement, not as park credit. Hoffman: Correct. There is no history of trading park dedication for trail easements. The trail easements...recent ones Stone Creek. It's an easement situation. All the new developments... Andrews: I have a question for Mr. Dietrich as well. This has been to the Planning Commission already? Hoffman: Conceptually. Andrews: Is it true, or am I correct that the Planning Commission also preferred to see the road at least make some contact with the Bluff Creek corridor to provide a variation and experience or view or did they have that preference, do you recall? John Dietrich: The Planning Commission has not had an opportunity to look at this concept plan that Todd had presented. What the concept plan was produced when we...on site visit which was just amongst staff and the Planning Commission has last seen this subdivision when it was a concept PUD back in March. It had 56 lots proposed on it. Through modifications it did receive concept PUD approval from the City Council with a total lot count of 53. Andrews: Okay. Are you saying that it's impossible to provide any roadway near the Bluff Creek corridor? That it's not economically viable or just not easy or. John Dietrich: As we move closer to the Bluff Creek corridor, one of the concerns of the applicant was the amount of return he would have on his property in terms of the concept plan that was presented that would provide an open view for the entire area. However it would not have any walkout lots that would also face the wetland. So there were a number of considerations that Heritage Development was concerned with in terms of the return of the lots as they would be proposed under the concept plan which the concept plan, I'd like to point out, had lots ranging anywhere from about 12,500-13,000 square feet up to some that 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . were 20 so they were much smaller and the concern that we looked at for was on the Planning Commission and City Council was the size of the lots. They did not seem to be in favor of a reduction below the 15,000 square feet. Lash: Are there the same number of lots on both plans? John Dietrich: No. The concept plan had approximately... Lash: And you have 50? John Dietrich: We have 50 on this plan, yes. Without...park. Lash: So essentially... John Dietrich: With the lots being all at grade without walkouts. Lash: So you're saying the prices that you could charge per lot would be reduced. John Dietrich: Substantially. Hoffman: ...presentation made as part of the city charge was that the applicant, their desire to . see the compensation made...profit margins...big profit margins...and the city paid the difference and that was not acceptable... Again, the Park Commission should certainly concentrate on the park issue, the trail issue. That as part of the road you can make a recommendation on how you feel. The Planning Commission will deal with that directly. Andrews: I'll speak my piece first. I guess. Lash: Maybe we should check and see if there's public comment. Andrews: Oh, pardon me. You're correct. Is there someone from the public that would like to add to the discussion here? Alright, now we can move on. To me to see the application presented to us with the trail being shown as parkland is, I hate to use the word but it's an insult to me. We've done that for no other development in the city that I'm aware of and the way it was presented was almost as though, well if you take away this trail then you're not going to get something. You're not going to have the trail and the park. You're going to get one or the other and I don't see that really as the issue here. We can still ask for an easement for a trail yet still pursue the parkland on that heavily treed southern portion of the property and the original desire was to do that. My desire, after seeing the property today, is at least as strong as it was then. You know Todd's proposal or compromise that the road be 16 . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 at least shown at some point making a contact with a view to the creek I think is not asking too much. I think the original design concept shown on the floor there shows that contact made almost along the entire property. That in itself may not be economically viable or it may create two much, too many walkout lots to be lost, which I understand are more desirable and therefore more profitable, but perhaps a shorter contact along the Bluff Creek corridor may be possible where only 3 or 4 lots might be impacted and I think that cost to the project would not be as severe. So my preference would be to see that we, that this be sent back and that a fresh attempt made. I don't feel like there's really been a serious attempt made here to really consider that alternative in my opinion. Hoffman: Yeah...is that stand of oak trees...oak trees and that would be one location that would be beneficial to push the road down below the oak trees as we discussed...the applicant to save those trees and... That would be the maximum location to provide that property... Andrews: Any other comments? Lash: Well I would have, I appreciate the presentation. I think it was done very nicely and I thank you for that. I also appreciate the way that you were resp~ctful of the Bluff Creek corridor, although...it is not something that we would grant park credit to but that would...trail easement cost. So I would...that what we would need to require of this development is an easement along the Bluff corridor and a combination of the acres, .11 acres on the southern portion and to make efforts to get the roadway to be in conjunction somehow with the corridor...and also to preserve that. I'm not sure... Andrews: We were down there tonight and just the impact of the property, it makes you feel like you're in a wilderness down there. Lash: It's a beautiful site. Andrews: It's a beautiful site and I hate to see trees mowed down. We also were in the Stone Creek project, which is a heavily wooded site. We drove by many lots that had not been built where the trees were magnificent Drove about a block and a half further on the same identical treed lots where houses had been built and there's probably about a 90% eradication of any living thing on those lots. So when a developer comes in and says we're going to be environmentally sensitive. We're going to preserve these treed properties. I mean the reality is that under the best of circumstances we're probably going to see at least a 70% loss of tree canopy down there and that's why we're trying so hard to save a very rare piece of heavily wooded property left in Chanhassen and that's why we're, it's important to us. And the Bluff Creek corridor I think is going to be a centerpiece of our city in the future and I think what we're asking the applicant to consider here is to really put a touch of quality 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . in this property which I think, when all things are said and done, will actually allow the developer to perhaps command a higher price for his finished properties. To have a view overlooking that Bluff Creek area, both now and perhaps 20 years from now when the city is fully developed, is going to be a rare gem of our community and I don't see that it would make this project impossible to proceed. Lash: And to have the roadway, we wanted the access points, so many more people can benefit from that view as opposed to just the homeowners who live right along it that therefore I feel that it's going to increase the property values of the people who are...normally wouldn't have access to that view at all. Whereas now they will. If they drive that route in and out of their home...they'll have that opportunity. And he did say that there would be significant grading, didn't you? John Dietrich: Yes I did. Lash: So there must be some ways. I mean you guys are pretty smart about how to do this. I would think you would be able to figure out how to do some grading and still accommodate the walkout lots or partial walkouts. Huffman: I guess it's one of the big concerns is that the Bluff Creek corridor which the city is just now, and the commissioners we're just now dealing with is sort of Minnewashta to the Minnesota. The whole corridor and as you are trying to develop beautiful areas with great lots and... . (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion and a portion of the meeting was not taped. The following is a summary of the motions made.) Lash moved, Huffman seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table the Heritage First Addition preliminary plat and that the applicant come back in 2 weeks to address the concerns of the Park Commission. All voted in favor and the motion carried. 18 . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL REZONING OF 25.85 ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED RR. RURAL RESIDENTIAL TO RSF. RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 25.85 ACRES INTO 21 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND 3 OUTLOTS LOCATED IN THE SW 1/4 SECTION 3. T 116. R 23. NORTH OF HIGHWAY 5 AND EAST OF HIGHWAY 41. BRENDON POND. GESTACH AND PAULSON CONSTRUCTION. Lash moved, Huffman seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council require the following conditions of approval in regard to park and trails for Brendon Pond: 1. Full park and trail fees be collected per city ordinance in lieu of land acquisition and/or trail construction. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PRELIMINARY PLAT AND FINAL PLAT FOR CHANHASSEN RETAIL 2ND ADDITION CREATING 2 OUTLOTS AND CHANHASSEN RETAIL 3RD ADDITION PLATTING OUTLOTS B INTO 3 LOTS AND ONE OUTLOT. SITE PLAN REVIEW OF A 5.000 SQUARE FOOT BUILDING FOR PERKINS RESTAURANT. A SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 1.800 SQUARE FOOT BUILDING FOR TACO BELL. LOCATED ON THE CORNER OF HIGHWAY 5. POWERS BLVD. AND WEST 78TH STREET. CHANHASSEN RETAIL CENTER (TARGET SITE). RYAN COMPANIES AND RLK ASSOCIATES. Manders moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City Council collect full park and trail dedication fees for Perkins and Taco Bell, to be collected at the time of building permit issuance at the rate then in force. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 46.5 ACRES INTO 36 RURAL SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND ONE OUTLOT. HALLA'S GREAT PLAINS GOLF ESTATES. LOCATED SOUTH OF COUNTY ROAD 14 (PIONEER TRAIL) AND WEST AND EAST OF HIGHWAY 101 (GREAT PLAINS BLVD). (Taping of the meeting began again at this point in the discussion.) Resident: ...and there's no place for the kids. They all tend to congregate on the road. And with the number of people traveling to the golf course and with that narrow road, there is no 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . parking. And if we have to go to park at Chanhassen right here so the kids can play in so I would like to see a development of that park in that southeast corner for the future. Lash: You're talking the southeast corner. Resident: Right. Lash: Well personally I would like to see that too. Resident: I mean it's a unique area where you have this morning at 6:00 we had a buck and doe and we have pheasants. I mean we've had those type of areas are very few and far between in Chanhassen. Lash: The problem that we're having is that we don't have any money to purchase it so we're in a position where we can't offer to buy the property and he has the right to develop his property so our hands are basically tied. And even if we all agreed that we wanted to buy it, we don't have the money. Huffman: We have the park that we want to give you at Bandimere and we desperately would like to do that. Lash: And we don't have the money to develop that either. . Huffman: That's 1 112 million dollars. When we come to everybody it's going to be in a big referendum again. Resident: What we need to do is work with the city itself...and if you look at our parks right now, the way they're being maintained. We had...we could not use. The overall maintenance of our parks is declining. The trees are being planted which is super. The lack of maintenance of these trees within the city are not being addressed. We're putting all this money to trees and putting all this money into trails and nobody's taking care of them. You know...Whether it's a 1.5 acre pond or 1.2. Who's going to check if it's a .3 difference in the development? Huffman: We do. Resident: We need to look at all these issues...I'd rather see a quality park than quantity and maintain what we have. 20 . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . Lash: Well I'll start this out for you. A year ago we sent out a survey to all the residents in Chanhassen and the survey...the quality of the parks, and maintenance and what they'd like to see and what would they like more...and how much they would, if they would vote for a referendum and how to provide the services and...overwhelmingly no. They would not support a referendum. They would not look to pay any more monthly towards their taxes to have these different things so that sounded pretty loud enough to...people want to see these things happen but they don't want to pay for it and that's the position that we're in right now. Resident: Is it a matter of... Andrews: We don't have the money. Lash: We do not have the money. And I know that our City Council has taken pride in the last I don't know how many years...of keeping the budget under control so that there's not been a city tax increase in 6 years or 5 years or whatever time, I'm not sure. But when you continue to have your parks going in and your streets going in and everything's growing but your keeping your tax base the same, I mean common sense is going to tell you that something's going to suffer along the line. They can't spread the money that thin and then keep up the quality of service to everyone. . Resident: ...how are these parks being maintained and where is the money coming from? ...into Chaska, I go into that town and how nice that little city park looks and how the surrounding City HalL.and it's just amazing how they can do that.. Huffman: Well we have needs here. We have a library that's totally inadequate for the city. And people it's going to cost a lot of money. It's not going to cost a little bit, it's going to cost hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's an issue. They're adding onto the City Hall. We have people coming in everywhere. You've seen tonight, you had an opportunity to see people, we've got developers coming in...and we're arguing about 3/10 of an acre for a park. The day they're done, they're gone. You talk about the homeowners association and things like that. We will own that park 5 years from now. And for us to have to deal with those issues, we're dealing with it constantly. As Jim and Jan said, there's nothing in the coffers. How do you deal with that? Lash: Quality versus quantity. There's a finite amount of property out there that's left, that's available for development or available for park property. Then we don't know for sure how many years but in the near future there's not going to be any property left for us to...so I think our philosophy now is to find the property if we can. We can always develop it later when the property's gone but once the property's gone, we're never going to be able to go back and get property. So we're stuck in a spot now where we're trying to put a lot of effort . 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . into acquiring property for the future and worrying about how we're actually going to be able to develop it and have it be a real quality place a little later as the monies are coming in and there's no property left to spend it on. Manders: That's exactly the same point that I'd like to make is that the monies that we do have are directed towards the acquisition of park space and if you think about the cost of parks such as west of Lake Minnewashta, what it costs to acquire a few acres out there, it's just phenomenal. As we'll be talking about later on, the cost to outfit and furnish these parks is equally large and by the time we get to this quality issue of how well they're maintained, the monies are gone just in acquiring them. But at least we've been responsible enough to provide that space. Lash: You're getting kind of crash course in economics that you didn't want to hear. Just to give you an idea...but our yearly budget is roughly around $150,000.00. That includes maintenance and acquisition and development of parks and everything that goes on. Resident: ...additional staff and we look at 5 year capital budget..is that a different budget altogether? Hoffman: At the benefit of the hearing, the park commission is aware that...this past year the administration of park maintenance was by the public works and city engineer. So that . person not only was responsible for park maintenance but street and sewer and water, etc so the allegiance was split. I recognized that deficiency in the operation of the park system. After that we corrected a change and as of January 1 of this year, park maintenance is now... the other general park functions. That relationship will mature and it will make it much more easy for me to be an advocate back to City Council and as a part of the 1995 budget, I will be requesting that we hire 2 more full time park maintenance employees. One for the downtown and one for parks in general and that the maintenance budget be beefed up considerably...We are obviously off on a tangent but... Huffman: I will say this for the staff of the park department. There's none fmer. They are outstanding. They work hard. They are diligent. They are very aware of economic constraints but if you had a chance to come up for things like the 4th of July picnic, the thing on Lake Susan during the middle of the winter. You can't keep it from thawing, the lake starting to go on you but there is none fmer and just from my limited time and exposure, these gentlemen and women on the department, they are working hard for you. They've had problems in the past. This group is good. And I'll tell you what, they're self hustlers too. I mean they are doing well. 22 . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 Resident: I think unless you've got...having someone give you compliments for that department. Huffman: Now I've got to say this. There's nobody, Mr. Hoffman's sitting right over there and he can't hurt me so I can say anything I want to about him. He does a great job and I don't say that just because I'm sitting here because I don't get anything for it. But he does an outstanding job and the staff does a good job. They will do everything for you. They go above and out of their way to make sure everything's done and we may be just a little pittely commission, which is what a lot of people may think but there's a lot of work and effort that goes through these people put up with and we love to hear from you because that reaffmns, are we doing the job we need to do. Are we getting things accomplished so this is. Resident: Just my frustration is, when you live out there, you might have the 2 acres or 1 acre that we're living on but in that particular...neighborhood, we just don't have all the kids tend to congregate...in the street and I think if anybody lives in a neighborhood within Chanhassen, they'll see that happen. And why that is, I don't know but good developers and a number of developers... . Huffman: If we had our city golf course, we could sure have a lot of solutions taken care of too... Andrews: We have to get back to the issue here. We'll be discussing. Hoffman: I apologize for that. This is the second go around to address this one issue but from that plat we have 36 lots...any direction as far as neighborhood parks but the thing that this is a location for acquisition of a neighborhood park and you will be dealing with outside of the bound of the park dedication and... Lash: Just for my curiosity. Why don't you just show me where you are. Resident: ...Creekwood. I live... Jim Engle: I'm Jim Engle. I've been a homeowner in Chanhassen and specifically in southern Chanhassen since 1986. ...and I currently reside at 9251 Foxford Road which is in Lake Riley Woods development. ...in the Lake Riley Woods development. I think there's about 40 some children that currently live there now and...! would suspect the number of children probably will increase and Mr. Halla's proposed development plans for some 36 lots so there will be a number of additional children there. That whole area is sort of expanding. I would commend you for your efforts in terms of trying to acquire parkland. I hear enough about the subject that Chanhassen's development in general and the parks in particular, I paid 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . $35.00 for the Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan and I appreciate the comment about how you don't have money and I guess I'm up here saying what I have to say only because I think it's important that you hear it and it's important to start the ball rolling about being able to do community park in southern Chanhassen. The only park that's being looked at south of Pioneer Trail is Bluff Creek park which, as was pointed out in the plan, isn't really, will never be a developed park. It's really a water drainage...They do have, you know Bandimere Park is there but that's near Lyman Blvd north of Pioneer Trail and then as you correctly pointed out, as the development occurs, it's unlikely that there's going to be additional land that's going to be coming available very often. You also have a nice network of trails and things that are planned to be down there. So whether it's, I mean I would love to see a neighborhood park in the Great Plains Golf Estates but if it's not there, I would just at least encourage you, as development continues to keep your eyes open towards locations of parks in the future for ways to do a lot of what is talked about in terms of the plan. I appreciate the difficulties that you have and that people like to have these things. They don't necessarily like to pay for them. Thank you. Andrews: Unfortunately we have to deal with reality, which is this plat and this time which is a time of our pockets being emptied with several ambitious land acquisitions. I think we need to move ahead here. Are there any comments from the audience? If not, are there any commission members that would like to make a comment or amotion? . Huffman: Mr. Halla, do you want to put a park in for us? Lash: We can call it Halla Park. Don Halla: Actually we do have...playground structures in our main nursery that are open for anybody to use. Huffman: Do you want us to move them over? You have the world's largest tree mover don't you? What can we do to alleviate some of the concerns? I mean that's obviously you're going to, you have your desires and things you'd like to do too. Is there something that I mean, something you can help us with here? Resident: I think I'm looking after...grandkids... Don Halla: You know there is an area...ta1king about there right next to your house. It's an unbuildable site. That certainly could be made into a park right there. That would...not crossing the road to your area. 24 . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . The resident and Don Halla were having a discussion at this point that was not picked up by the microphone. Roeser: Well one of the things we're going to be discussing soon is the referendum, right? Andrews: Yes. Roeser: It's coming up I think later tonight and probably along into the next couple months so these things will be talked about I'm sure. Andrews: Back to reality though. We have to deal with this plat, the proposal. Accepting full fees does give, provide us with dollars for potential acquisition. Also a referendum, in order to buy enough land to be a usable neighborhood park, we need 8 to 10 acres minimum and we do not have that cash in hand right now so in my opinion, we do not have an alternative. I'd think to take one lot or one acre basically puts us in a position of a totlot in a density such as these proposals, I don't think that makes any sense. You know for us to put up swings and playground equipment with such limited density just is not cost effective for us. It costs us $50,000.00 to put in a totlot minimum with the cost of land and the equipment. . Lash: Not only that, that goes against our own guidelines of having minimum acreage. We have basically set guidelines so we don't end up with a whole bunch of little 1 acre sites all over Chanhassen... Roeser: I move we recommend that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City Council approve the preliminary plat of Halla's Great Plains Golf Estates with the following conditions of approval with regard to park, open space and trails. A 20 foot wide trail easement be dedicated to the south of Pioneer Trail extending the entire length of the proposed plat. Park and trail fees be paid in full per city ordinance in lieu of land acquisition and/or trail construction. Andrews: Is there a second? I'll second the motion. Any further discussion? Manders: I understand our financial problems in this regard but I'm thinking back to when this piece of property came into consideration earlier this winter and how enthusiastic we were at that point in time thinking about just the layout of that particular land and the location primarily and limitations that we're encountering in terms of ballfields and such and saying well, we've got to plan ahead a little bit and what we're saying is that well, that was good at that time but reality soaks in and I can accept that maybe reality is soaking in but we're effectively saying that we're going to forego this opportunity without any further . 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . consideration and this idea of a referendum is not even being considered here and if that's the way everybody else thinks, I guess I can agree with that. But are we really saying that? That any other land acquisition. Andrews: My reason for seconding is that we have a 30 acre plus parcel of land less than a half a mile, or about a half a mile away that we have no money to develop and it seems to me to be much more cost effective to develop land we already have then to buy another piece of land that we cannot develop. We also have the problem of fair treatment to a landowner who has come to us with a proposal that in all respects meets city requirements. Basically I think our options are either to put up the money and buy it or give it our limited recommendation and best wishes so that was my reason for seconding. Lash: And I know the one thing about it too Jim is I mean I was the one probably who was the most enthusiastic about...position that we can't...reality bites. We can't guarantee that we will have the money. We can talk until we're blue in the face about a referendum. We can put a referendum out but until a referendum passes and we have the money, we can't in all honestly go out and make an offer on this property. Roeser: Yeah, and in the meantime Mr. Halla sits on his property wanting to develop it which we can't. Lash: And that's not fair to him. Now I mean if he wanted to be a really nice guy he could say... . Don Halla: But you realize I'm being forced by the city to develop on one hand. On the other hand I can understand you wanting me not to...It's kind of like, either do it now and... Roeser: I like the nursery down there myself. Huffman: I know the Big Woods. We talked about that for a long time...the two major differences about that. They were going to cut those woods down forever. Yeah, we have Bandimere. How soon can we get that money...it doesn't matter where you plant, they're not going to grow back. And two, that was backyard conversation for a year and a half. I mean that was not the fIrst time that referendum had come up and it was the second or third time and so it was conversation hot and heavy. Everybody knew about it. Everybody was aware. You may have heard us talk about the Bluff Creek charette tonight. I joined this commission what, in May. Never knew there was one. So yes, we understand what you're saying. YesIwe want to get there. 26 . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 Andrews: Item 7 on our agenda tonight is discussion of a potential future referendum. We recognize that we need to raise some substantial capital for things like the Bandimere development. Resident: ...development and you talk about the watershed and how close that is, that development is to the Minnesota River. I think the lack of sanitary sewer in that area is an illustration of that whole area... Roeser: Okay, we have a motion on the floor. Lash: And we have a second. Andrews: Okay, I'll call the question then. Roeser moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City Council approve the preliminary plat of Halla's Great Plains Golf Estates with the following conditions of approval with regard to park, open space and trails. 1. A 20 foot wide trail easement be dedicated to the south of Pioneer Trail extending the entire length of the proposed plat. 2. Park and trail fees be paid in full per city ordinance in lieu of land acquisition and/or trail construction. All voted in favor, except Manders who opposed, and the motion carried. SELECTION OF VENDOR: PHEASANT HILL PLAY STRUCTURE. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: One quick question. The new packet that we got, you're saying the drawing...is this the new plan? Hoffman: No. Lash: This is the old one. Hoffman: Yes. The new plan would be in the back. 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . Lash: All the separate pages. Hoffman: That's what we received to date...Do you want to go now or do you want to ask staff any more questions about the process to date? Andrews: I'm so tired, I just want to go home. Let's hear what you have to say. Value Recreation Representative: Well I know on the original proposal that Bill gave them a plan based on our past experience. We had never come up with a plan that... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Lash moved, Huffman seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table action on the selection of vendor for the Pheasant Hill play structure for 2 weeks. All voted in favor and the motion carried. DISCUSS FUTURE PARK/OPEN SPACE ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT REFERENDUM. Andrews: ...what do you really need to do here Todd? I think we're probably unanimous in feeling that this is something we need to pursue. What steps do we need to take to start a . process rolling. Hoffman: ...and ask the City Council to authorize the process and ask them to make a decision on how they would like. Typical it's a task force...put back on the Park Commission, the task force with members from the Park Commission, City Council, Planning Commission and members at large from the community and that would be their next step if they chose to authorize at least the investigation of a referendum and for more land acquisition and development. And that would probably... Andrews: As part of this recommendation to the Council I would assume you would write some document laying out the need. Bandimere, trails, some open space acquisition and probably some reserve building really for development of other parcels that we may acquire here. Hoffman: Yeah. In fact before I would do that I would bring that, I would like to bring that back to the commission. To set aside, put some numbers on all the acreage which we have and I have no idea what it would...We have the Bluff Creek land. We have some other acquisitions to take a look at and how high that gets before taking that type of information back onto the City Council, we may want to put some parameters on that. That would be a 28 . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 maximum of $3 million per acquisition. $2 million for construction. $1 million for trail improvements. Andrews: How big was the Eden Prairie referendum? Huffman: That was the Big Woods. Roeser: That wasn't that big was it. Huffman: That was only like, I believe less than $2 million. Andrews: Yeah, I think we do have to come up with a number and I do think we have to have some plan as to what we want it for. Lash: I think what Todd says...at least to start it is to make a list of everything that you can think of. Andrews: And we'll start cutting it down. Lash: With ballpark, estimate of how much he thinks it will cost and then we'll start picking it apart. And I don't want to be so quick to say that we're all unanimous and that we need to go ahead with a referendum. Personally I don't want to go through with a referendum but I feel that we need to offer it. We put out the survey. It came back. People don't want it. But it's the only way we're ever going to do anything and I realize that. Roeser: Sometimes with refeI1endums and things like that, you have to keep hammering away at people too. Huffman: The other thing is you have to be very, very specific about what you want. I mean to come to me and say I want $3 million for some general construction, ain't no way. I want Bandimere. I want Minnewashta. I want the Bluff Creek charette. I want 5 things that we are going to lose if we don't get them now. I mean you have to put almost a desperation edge on it. Lash: And we can't, it's got to be something that is going to fill a lot of people's needs. You can't say we want $2 million to develop a park property down south because people out west aren't going to...it's got to be something that's going to fill the most people's needs. 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 . Andrews: You need regional appeal and you need the complete projects. You can't have we're going to buy a piece of land and we're going to take it 50% of the way. It's going to have to be, we're going to do it. It's going to be done and ready to use. Huffman: You appeal, you go to every ball club and say you need parks. We need Bandimere because we're going to put 5 fields in here. We're going to go to Minnewashta. You don't have a park out there. We have everybody in southern Chanhassen now at Bandimere. You have to go for very specific appeals because the trail issue got voted down here 3 times in a row because it was this nebulous idea of what, you know what do you mean? What is it? What are they doing? And we shot it down. Lost, we were lucky and it got shot down the first time by what, 20 votes. The second time by...It was a weird,weird deal. People don't want nebulousness. They want something very specific. And especially when you're talking about parks, you're talking about the toy as opposed to a need. We need a school. You want a park. Lash: Well the timing is right because the school district is, or Chaska School District has just come out and said there won't be a referendum in '95. So if we're ever going to go for it, this is the year. There probably will be one next year or for sure the next year. Hoffman: And you look at $4 to $6 million...and $45 million for the school district so your idea of the need versus the want, and whatever it ends up to be. If it's $100 per household per year... . Huffman: I tell you want. I'd rather also go for the throat than go for let's just get $1.2. I mean let's go for $10 million or whatever the number is but go for it and lay it out there because if we get it, you're right. In '96 something's going to happen. '97. Roeser: You look like you almost have to complete Chan the way it's growing. You've got to get it done because all of a sudden it isn't going to be there. The property's not there. Lash: I'll tell you specifically the comment I heard this weekend, because I brought it up. We had our neighborhood picnic and I said, guess what we're going to talk about Tuesday. I don't have an opinion but I want..feelings but this is something we're going to discuss. How do you feel about it and the comments that I heard, and you hear this all the time. People do not understand and sometimes I don't understand this, is with all the people moving to town, why isn't there enough money with all the businesses and the people and the new houses coming in, why isn't there enough money to just pay for this? Why do we have to keep paying for all this stuff and I know that's the mentality? 30 . . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 Huffman: Because we don't have the Carlson Center. We don't have those businesses. We have individuals living here. Lash: Maybe there needs to be...pull that together, we need to try and explain that to people because they just don't get it. Hoffman: As a prelude to that I can feed an article to the Villager...significant growth we're seeing the amount of money that it's bringing in but when you talk about us bringing $350,000.00... Lash: But people don't understand where our money comes from and they don't understand, they don't know the whole picture so we need to go out with education. Huffman: I think it should be like a weekly frontal attack in the Villager. Not just an article every once in a while. I mean it should be something we should hammer. Hoffman: The task force will go through the entire thing. The public, I mean you've got to persuade the public. Let's all get together. If we get in this together, we can make something happen...anti trust of government is at an all time high so you've got to deal with that. You've got to go out there and... Huffman: What would help from our perspective too is also maybe responding to some of these issues that people have when they come before us. I mean if we have South, you know Lotus Lake. Here we do respond to the public. Carver Beach. We do respond to public. We do have some ways of coming back and saying, yes. We do instead of just saying we want more. Lash: Well the other thing is, tonight's a perfect example with Mr. Anderson and he'd like to see this and he'd like to see that and they assume we should have enough money to provide all this type of things and we don't. It's an education for people to realize that we have very limited funds and we can't provide half of what we would like to provide and the only way we can do it is through this. If they want it bad enough, they'll vote for it. Andrews: I think it'd be real interesting to do a comparison between Eden Prairie and Chanhassen. That's what we're compared against all the time. Eden Prairie has all the trails, how come you don't have any? Roeser: ... we come up awfully short compared to Eden Prairie. Andrews: But their budget is probably 10 times what our's is...Do you need a motion? 31 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 9, 1994 Hoffman: I need a motion to approve the concept at least. Lash: Another thing that as... Roeser: I so move whatever. Huffman: Second. Roeser moved, HutTman seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve the concept for a future park/open space acquisition and development referendum. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Andrews: Are there any commission member presentations tonight? Is there a motion to adjourn? Manders moved, HutTman seconded to adjourn. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 32 . . . . . . 7 - CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREA Tl0N COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 27, 1994 Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Jan Lash, Jim Manders, Ron Roeser, Fred Berg, Jane Meger, and Dave Huffman STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor; Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor; and Michelle Braun, Recreation Intern VISITOR PRESENT A TIONS: None. CONSIDER REQUEST OF SOUTHWEST METRO TRAIL ASSOCIATION TO UTILIZE SOUTHWEST REGIONAL LIGHT RAIL TRAIL ROUTE AS A SNOWMOBILE ROUTE. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Andrews: Before we move on to asking people from the audience to speak, I'd like to just take a moment here to again emphasize or re-emphasize what Todd said. If you have spoken at our prior meeting ar..d you wish to speak tonight, I wish you would keep your comments to an absolute minimum and summarize your position. I would not like to have a verbatim recitation of all the details, facts and figures because I don't think we need those. We have those in our packet for us to read, which we all have done. If you are speaking for the fIrst time, please do feel free to come forward and state your name and address and state your viewpoint regarding this issue. At this time I'd like to ask if there's anybody who wishes to step forward and speak. Brad Blomquist: Hi. My name is Brad Blomquist. I'm the trail coordinator for the Chanhassen Club for the year '94-95. Huffman: Quick question. Have we heard from you before? Brad Blomquist: No. Huffman: Okay. I mean I'm not trying to be rude about this but we've had 17 pages of this and Leroy's done an outstanding job and unless there is something brand new. And again, I'm not trying to be rude but we have heard from everybody. And I apologize for this but. Okay, but do you understand what I'm saying though? 1 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 . Brad Blomquist: Okay. I won't hash over what I think is. Huffman: Because a lot of it's been hashed over. I mean I'm serious. And I'm just saying, we've heard a ton so, I want to listen to it but we've heard. Brad Blomquist: Okay. I'll skip a couple items then. Huffman: Thank you. Skip a lot of items. Lash: Stick to the new stuff. Huffman: Yeah, because we've heard it. Brad Blomquist: Has there been any discussion whether or not this is going to be designated snowmobiling only, or not designated for cross country skiing? Andrews: No. That has not been determined. Brad Blomquist: Okay. I guess if it was designated for snowmobiling, I guess that's what I'd recommend. I mean if people want to cross country ski, they can cross country ski but it . wouldn't be designated as a ski trail. Andrews: I don't think we're considering to designate it a ski trail but I also don't think we're here to restrict it to snowmobiles only. I don't think that would be, I can't speak for everyone but I don't think: we could support an exclusive use situation here. I understand what you're saying though. But our intent is not to make it a groomed cross country trail, no. It's not. It's not going to happen. Brad Blomquist: Okay. But yeah, if it was a designated ski trail, then that would be a whole new ball game because that's kind of what I wanted to clarify. Andrews: No, our intent was not to designate. Brad Blomquist: Okay. That's all I had. Andrews: Thank you. Lash: That was great Brad. 2 . . . . Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Huffman: Thank you. No, we want to give you that opportunity but honestly we've got 17 pages here and a 2 1/2 hour City Council meeting and if you've got something new, we'd love to hear it. Brad Blomquist: There is really nothing new. Huffman: Alright. I'm not trying to cut anybody off but we've got reams of stuff. Thank you. Andrews: Thank you. Is there anybody else who wishes to speak? Is there anybody on the commission here that wishes to state their viewpoint or any comments at this time? Berg: I've got some quei>tions. Maybe because I wasn't here when we took the initial vote. Maybe my questions have been asked but I guess I have to ask them of the snowmobilers and/or the neighborhood folks who are here. My fIrst one. What is the closest the trail is to a home? How close is the nearest home to the trail? LeRoy Biteler: I can address that. I'm LeRoy Biteler. I'll speltk for our club. It's diffIcult... to figure that out. As I mentioned in the letter, there is no home that could be legally any closer, to the best of our knowledge, than 80 feet from the trail. If I were to give you an estimate, I would say most of the homes are 200 feet plus away from that trail. That's being very realistic. Huffman: But we don't know. LeRoy Biteler: We don't know that, exactly. Hoffman: Here they are. Those two are about the closest. This one and this one. Berg: What's the scale? Hoffman: This is 1 inch equals 100 feet. So 150 feet then. Berg: Next question then in relation to that. The sheet that you gave us on the decibel test, I don't recall. Was it 50 feet that these were tested? These 10 machines were tested. 50 feet? LeRoy Biteler: Ah yes it was. Berg: Okay, the closest is 80 feet. Can you give me the approximation of what the decibel rate would be? How does it drop? Does it drop proportionately per 50 feet? 3 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 . Andrew: No, it's expentionally. LeRoy Biteler: It's what? Andrews: It's expenetionally. So it would be twice the distance is 1/4 the volume. LeRoy Biteler: And if you look at the first information, piece of information, letter on decibel range contained in the Minnesota State Educational brochure. It says on there, clear over to the right, after every so many distances it doubles or something like that. Do you have that packet with you? Berg: Yes. LeRoy Biteler: Okay. I can show you that if you give me a second. This piece right here. This is what you want to read. That's the only one I have. You'll have to read that verbatim. I think that will help answer your questions. Berg: Well when I saw this, it didn't make any sense to me either and it doesn't make any sense as I'm looking at it now. Maybe you can interpret it for those of us who aren't used to looking at such. LeRoy Biteler: Okay. Let me get a copy. . Berg: Here, you can ha\'e this one back. I've got mine too. LeRoy Biteler: Well I think you need to look at that while I interpret that. Let's take a look, look prior 1972, the bottom of the page. Snowmobiles traveling at 20 mph had a decibel rating of somewhere around about 80. Do you follow that off to the left? At 10 mph it had a decibel rating of around 72. That's machines in 1972. I think we can jump, if you understand that, you codd jump right from 1975 and look at 20 mph. The decibels were about 73. There it is. At 10 mph in 1975, snowmobiles from that vintage were 65. If you took that vintage of snowmobile at full throttle, decibels are by law not to exceed 78. Most of them we see out there today are 75 and older. Berg: Most, 90%? LeRoy Biteler: I'd say 90%. Sure. That's almost 20 years old. Berg: I don't know if you know the answer to this one but these 10 machines that were tested, were they in pretty good shape? Were they pretty fmely tuned? 4 . . . . Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 LeRoy Biteler: Absolutely. Berg: And assuming that not every snowmobile on this trail is going to be as finely tuned, what's the ratio then? How much decibels can we except if the machine is not tuned properly? LeRoy Biteler: Boy, that's like asking how many automobiles have poor mufflers on them? Berg: A lot? A little? Could I tell the difference if I was up in a home 80 feet away? LeRoy Biteler: I'd say you may have 10%. Berg: Okay. I think that's all the questions I have at this point. Manders: I didn't have any questions but I had a couple brief comments. Andrews: Okay. Manders: My primary concern with this decision is a safety concern, and that's all I have to say. Lash: Safety for who? Manders: Safety for the people on the trail and the crossing roads. So whomever's on the trail and where they cross roads is, there's no, I mean it's Bluff Creek is the one I'm thinking of that you can go straight through that and that could be a real accident potential there. Depending on how it's set up. Andrews: Any other comments? I have none. Berg: I have a couple comments in addition to my questions, if I'm not out of order. Andrews: Please. Berg: My concerns are the curfew. I'm not sure that the 10:00 is something I'm comfortable with. I'd like to see if we move to allow this open to snowmobiles, I'd like to see us talking about a reduced speed limit through that area. Again referring to the decibel chart. I noticed that on the newer machines, 4, 6 and 7 in particular, there's a considerably drop off in decibel level when drop from 40 to 20 and I would be in favor of seeing that type of speed limit there amongst these homes and have it well posted so there's no doubt about what it is that 5 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 . we're expecting. And I have a question about the enforcement. To me the enforcement is just as important from the safety point of view and the noise point of view. Is this enforcement only going to be on complaint only or can we expect that there will be regular patrol, if there is such a thing, on this trail. Is there now any type of patrol system on these trails or is just if someone calls in with a complaint? Hoffman: ...club members might be able to speak more eloquently to this. Lash: I know there are DNR officers out occasionally. Hoffman: Yeah, they set up an occasional check point but I would say the majority of the enforcement is on complaint. Andrews: My question r~garding enforcement would be, who's responsibility is it? I mean this is a Hennepin COUJ1ty project in Carver County being passed over to Chanhassen. So who's going to be responsible for enforcement? Hoffman: City of Chanhassen. Lash: So if the snowmohile club were to cooperate with the enforcement, would they, I mean they're citizens, they would not have, I'm assuming they wouldn't have the authority to actually ticket anyone or do anything like that. Would we be able to provide public safety . officers who could actual1y ticket people or how could we see that that enforcement is, especially initially each season when people need to be reminded that there are restrictions. Who would have the authority to actually give citations? Hoffman: A licensed police officer for the city of Chanhassen or Carver County Deputy or an official from the DepLrtment of Natural Resources. Lash: And do you think that we could get cooperation from them to work with the snowmobile club to provide enforcement each season? Hoffman: I'm sure there- would be cooperation... Andrews: I guess one poL"t would be there that if a disturbance, you know it may not be a snowmobiler so let's not say that but if somebody you know riding a mini-bike through there in the summer, by the time an enforcement officer could get there, that person could be miles away. Same would go wit.h snowmobiles. H somebody calls at 3:00 in the morning. 6 . . . . Park and Rec Commission - September 27. 1994 Huffman: We're going to have the same issue regarding, we've got dogs running through the park... Andrews: Yeah, I mean it's hit and miss at best. Huffman: We can argue that 50 ways. You know it's in many cases everywhere. Lash: Do you have more? Berg: Well my concern I guess is not with the snowmobile club. I wouldn't want to create that impression. My concern is with the road snowmobilers out there who aren't going to be affected by the rules and regulations of the snowmobile club that seems to be pretty conscientious. I guess my only last thought would be that if we can't be sure of the type of enforcement that we thi':J( ~s appropriate, then this should be an issue that is looked at every year. Andrews: I had the same idea. That this perhaps could be looked upon as a conditionally renewable privilege if gnntect. Any other comments? Lash: My only comment th=t I had was that in forming my decision for tonight, I used our mission statement as my guide and just for the record, for anyone, any of the residents. Either snowmobile cluJ.:, members. I think they need to be aware that our mission is to provide quality recreational opportunities for all citizens of Chanhassen in a financially responsible manner while preserving natural amenities and I used that as my guide. Andrews: I'd like to hwe a :notion. Huffman: I'd like to tn?ke a recommendation, if it's alright, that the Park and Rec Board recommend to the City COlm:i1 the Regional Light Rail Transit Route running through Chanhassen be made aV2;lable to snowmobiles during the winter month. No other motorized vehicles will be allowed. Signage, hours of use, speed limits and other enforcement rules will be worked out with the De~artment of Safety officials. City officials and other pertinent folks after City Council approval. Meger: I would just add to the motion too that we put it on a one year trial basis. Huffman: I remove my l~otion then and somebody else is going to have to say that. I want to get this thing done a~d if we keep going back and forth, back and forth, what will inevitably happen is thz.c we will have more developments come in here and it will be gone in 3 years. I would like to see this really be put down. We're not asking to go through 7 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 . neighborhoods. They'r~: not asking to move them through other areas and it will turn into Eden Prairie. I would really like to see this happen. We could put enforcement, we can put speed limits and signage but if we keep putting conditions on everything in terms of a year's time and a year's time, a year's time, we're going to go to these battles time and time again. Andrews: Okay. For the record then, that amendment is rejected by the maker of the motion. Is there a second to the motion as it was originally stated? Roeser: I second it. Andrews: Okay. With a second. Is there any further discussion of that motion? Huffman moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council ~:prrove the Southwest Metro Trail Association's request to utilize the Southwest Region~! tight. Rail Transit route as a snowmobile route during the winter months. No other motorized vehicles will be allowed. Signage, hours of use, speed limits and other enforcement rules will be worked out with the Department of Public Safety officials. All voted in favor, except Berg, Manders and Andrews who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 3. . Hoffman: It will. go to ',~ity Council on October 10th. Andrews: Thanks for rl~i 1~ bere to make sure this didn't go deadlock again. REVIEW RECOMM.E~T~~JION TO THE CITY COUNCIL TO CONSIDER A 1995 PARK. OPEN SP.~.C.E )J~TD TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT REFERENDUM. Hoffman: Mr. Andreu,,;:-. I have nothing to add to the report. I'm waiting to hear from the commission in this regard. Andrews: Does anyboc'y have any comments to add to this? If not, Todd do you need a motion to support thi-; 'coT:mendation? Lash: Wait a minute. I know I don't know what's going on. So we're just asking for them to say yes to a referendum when we're not putting down clearly what it's for and how much it's going to cost? 8 . Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 . Hoffman: Asking them to consider to investigate in 1995 which would include all of those other things. Lash: Okay. So we're jl:st asking the City Council for what? To approve us to think about it? Hoffman: The recommend....tion is to recommend the City Council investigate a 1995 park, open space and trail acquisition and development referendum of a scope yet undetermined and proceed to appoint a task force to expedite this process. Lash: You ultimately want them to appoint a task force to put together a package. Hoffman: Right. And if you do not approve of that recommendation, you can pull out the task force part and just af:k that they investigate a 1995 referendum. They may, if they do not feel totally comfort"b~E' with that, then they may ask that those facts, figures, numbers, be drawn up but it does ta~:f: a considerable amount of time, effort, to do that. So if you know...don't have the ~0n~ensus to go forward, I'm not going to put that time and all the other city officials...necessary to pull those things together to work prior to having a vision sort of agreed to. . Andrews: I strongly su:p'1rt a task force because it will broaden support. Make it more likely this may pass. TfJ m::rrc people that are involved with the concept, I think the more likely it is to deve1cp r,;.lr :10~. Lash: Now I would wa"t th~ task force though to work through us, whether it has Park and Recreation Commissio:1crs on it or not. I was here when the task force for the community center was working and that was just a separate task force and we had no, I really felt like we had very little or no input into it and it just went from the task force to the City Council and I think if it's somethin~ that 2ffects us this directly, which it does, it needs to come through us first. So if they're 'i:)l tr8cking with the direction we want to go, we want to be able to have some control over trrm before it goes on to City Council. Andrews: Perhaps we could si;ate then that the task force, the City Council would ask the Park Commission to fO~':;l a t'lsk force of citizens and park board members. That would help take care of that. Councilman Wing: I want ~o bear what was discussed before... Andrews: This idea of a f:>ferendum? . 9 Park and Rec Commissio!l - September 27, 1994 . Lash: I believe it was i:-l the Minutes. Andrews: I think it was, yes. Lash: I think you know Dick to tell you my own personal feeling. I think there was unanimous support and I think we're sort of feeling like we're in a position, or I feel like I'm in the position that we can either ask for this and try to accomplish some things that we would like to see get aCile, or they will never get done because we just do not have the funding to do some of l!~e thir:gs that we would like to do and this is the only route that we have to do it. So it's SO:it of a pinch. I don't like the idea personally of a referendum but it's the only way that I can see that we can get it done. Councilman Wing: \Vp.~l it's not a maybe. It's an absolute. The problem is this referendum with the gravity appeaJ's tc br...south end because we're putting the pressure on increased rules and development "~2ndards and quality and...everybody's really running your staff's to get under the line and I'\~ ';e ~.alking about re-Iooking at the comprehensive plan. So there are going to be some majo:':'h'1:1f-es...Well for instance, the Ryan's out here on Galpin. Gorgeous rolling and i~'~: rcming into a real wall out there because the road's going through and the development is gJing to destroy that land as the land develops. We're all of a sudden waking up to th~ fact that every time we approve a development, we kind of smile and put a stamp on it ,1d ;:;0 out there 6 months later and it's a disaster...That hill was . supposed to be preser\'ed. It was one of our landmarks. And development occurs. We're not even up to think t~?t thev're preserving our land. Look at what they did at that hill behind Byerly's...so 6:" ::md :eferendum is the greatest gift we can give our community. I support it very enthusl?stic111v. If you want to raise my taxes $300.00 a year, I'm... That's the only thing we've g:,+ lef~ to give to our community so I'm totally in support of that. Maybe my point I'm saying 1.S, I think it's been a really, if you're enthusiastic showing by showing up at the COl1,'sil meetings because when Planning shows up or 2 or 3 or 4 people, it's Council and then the~' come up to the podium and they say well here's the game or here's what we did and here's wh~' we did it. Oh. Oh. Or somebody says, well we're going to with this alignment of tne rmd and then they come up and say, excuse me. Here's the facts and all of a sudden. i: h:':,,,,~ everything on line so what I would ask you to do, if you support it and if you're enthUS1?S1"1c. 'c)e there and speak up. Be there and support it or be there... Here's where all tht> v'cd< oxurs and all the taking occurs and then it gets up there but you're not there to ca1J... get off track and everything so I think there's a little bit... And once I heard that task h::.-ce, well why are you afraid? One of the...task force to look into the facts and numbers. an:' then make a determination so I at least want the enthusiasm up to that point to get this thi!1g "fi j~ad center. I'm really excited about it. I'm really pleased with what Todd has done... 10 . . . . Park and Rec CommiSSlOl1 - September 27, 1994 Andrews: Thank YOll. Do Wt need to have a motion here to restate that the recommendation should be to have a task force formed through the Park and Rec Commission? So I so move. Lash: I second. Hoffman: Can you ch:.rify for me? Andrews: I'm moving :hat our recommendation would be that the City Council authorize the Park and Rec Commissi Y1 'to :orm a task force to be comprised of citizens and Park Board members to investi:~(ltC'. vih'.'re 9.m I reading here from. Roeser: Investigate the 1995 park, open space. Andrews: Open spac~ ~ rrd tmi' acquisition and development referendum of a scope yet to be determined. Hoffman: That !:ypic?r:' is !b'~ City Council, in a referendum type of process, is the body that sets, establishe-- the t~iSl( force. I don't know if we want to given that discretion, they will certainly want to...\YfO you would like to see on it and then it's a very good idea to have the recommendatiom ,:,f t:le ~:ask force be presented by the task force Chairperson before the commission before it go:~s back to the City Council but I think the Council would like to have that authority to g'l ah'~2d and appoint the task force. Andrews: If that were to be the case, then I would recommend that the Park Board be well represented on that 13S\ fOc'ce Huffman: Is it pos:;i'Jle to have the leader or the head person a park board member of that? So that's who's pre-semil';: jt ard that's who's leaving it and that's who's keeping their thoughts up front. Hoffman: Again, in the democratic process, the task force should establish who the chair person is of the task force. Lash: As long as they come back to us first, I don't care. I don't care who's on it and I don't care who the CblJc' ryerson is. As long as everything comes through us fIrst. Andrews: Yeah, I agree with Jan. I don't want to have it be like that community center when the first time we saw it was after it was already drawn up and they had hired a consulting architect a:':.J It'S JLl(e, geez. It'd be nice for us to get a chance to get our two cents but. 11 Park and Rec Comr,ussi ~)n - September 27, 1994 . Berg: But on the orher side of the coin, you don't want people saying well look at all the people on the Park Cor{:mission who were on this task force, including the head. It's been a set up deal before we ever got started. Lash: That looks like c. rai!roading effort going on. Berg: Right, because t11e/:-e going to assume everyone on the Park and Rec is in favor of this. Andrews: I'll just try !0 ':vaJk the fence here. I'll just again restate that the motion that I made is that the City Council appoint a task force and that they give due consideration to proper representation by the Park Board and that they ask this task force to bring it's recommendation to the p::,rl; Hoard for review and comment before it is presented to the Council. Lash: Second. Andrews moved, Lgs~ seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City CouncH ~ppoint a task force, including proper representation of Park Commission members. to !fsestigate a 1995 park, open space and trail acquisition and . development refenfJJIJ j11 I)f C\ scope yet undetermined, and that the item be brought before the Park and F~ecreationCommission for review and comment prior to presentation to the CVy Council. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PROPOSED STOr.t; it.. J<t~.I~AND ACQUISITION. Todd Hoffman pre~':'T':ed th~ staff report on this item. Lash: So we're 10sing :-h3! upper :riangle on the left but we're getting a little triangle on the right? Hoffman: Correct. Huffman: And people's back yards will move up right against the park in that area? Hoffman: Yep. As de":.",:c:ed on the other handout you have in your packet. Berg: Right up to the par1.dand or right up to the berm? 12 . . . . Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Hoffman: It's up to ill:: ~erm...with the extra parkland so you get back lots...to the front property...original CO~1i':~p, yell would have is 6 rear lot lines... So the fIrst couple of...is whether or not the Par:, and Recreation Commission feels comfortable with a neighborhood park. A neighborhood of 5 acres in size. The comprehensive plan states that 10 acres and above and 25 acres specifically and where the city would like to place these neighborhood parks in reference to ~:jzc...statistics. Less than 6 acres in size, the park would be smaller than Curry Farms Park. 'Those of you who have been at Curry Farms can visualize that. And at present the city maintains...for neighborhood parks smaller than Curry Farms... Andrews: Isn't NOTt> L,:t::s 8bout 8 acres'! Hoffman: North Lo!',:s Llk~ Park is 14. Andrews: 14, okay. Hoffman: So that 15 the: Frst issue. A second issue concerns the...of Lundgren Bros acquiring and locating ;j teT"m that they would construct on the two properties, wholly or partially on the city 1'31\ ~T",)DC:'"ty and Mr. Lundgren has directed that in his letter to the commission so befC';~ ,~u W'1ight I've asked you for action in those two areas... Is the park size acceptable to the ?2..~!: ,:l!lJ Recreation Commission. Second, what direction would you like to take in regards to...Lundgren Bros totally or partially locate a berm in the property in the city's parkla:1d. Ar>; yet this map shows the approximate location and their map shows, is actually a better ref'res?!1tation because this map shows it on private property and their map shows it being located. ';1~ DTepared by Lundgren Bros, within the park property. The question at hand is, is this c0Dsh'u.:-tioD of that berm for the public good as a whole, to separate the park from the neighh'w'. (~; i~ it for the betterment of the individual lot owners. Andrews: I have a C'OVpip qlleti,)nS about this berm. It appears as though the hill, or that the elevation is droppin~ from the northwest to the southeast. Is there any defInition of how large, how tall of a b~'f'~. waul d be necessary? Hoffman: I don't 1::-~ie"t \V~ s00ke about a specific height 3:1 slopes on the side. Yeah, we're going to be "r ttG l--()tt0ITI of a bill. The bottom of the back yards. So it was discussed that this...so you C,l,l',~" s'~einto the park. It's just a physical barrier. Andrews: I guess I h,";:. P. cO'Jple of comments. One would be, if you have a walkout lot that's running dO'NI1 iLt0 the ~Jark and you had a berm at the bottom, it creates some interesting runoff iS~.~l:'~ a!;('l)t w11ere the water's going to go. I made sort of a comment in jest here to Mr. Huffrrc-.[ z.bout, that I would have no objection to a berm in our property if we could put our pm",=:,[' lots c.n their property. But I guess I feel that the bluff or the berm 13 Park and Rec Comm; ~., i O:i - September 27, 1994 . itself has no, adds no ,!:,l'-~e to our park and we're looking for an active play area. I think it reduces our play area s~: I personally am against locating a berm on park property. Lash: I'd like to bac k Uf to the fIrst issue of the overall size. What was the intended or original size? Hoffman: 6.4 acres. Lash: And we have w~(.t now? Ko, I mean when we first started this whole thing. Is that what it was? I wa~ th;T~kin.rr it W2.S like 8. Andrews: I think: "'e 'N:re in ;:he 6 range to start with. Berg: Didn't we ado -~;n:gs like a pump house and something like that too? It was larger than 6.4 when we fITst siarted. Hoffman: Yeab. I c:n'~ot recall the exact number. If we were talking about 7 acres. In the area of 7 acres. Lash: Okay, so it e(l,e'" OF. 3~ 0.4 and now we're down to what? Hoffman: It'd be (':~ J;';. ;~ady 5.1, 5.1. . Lash: And that's just because of this corner going and then the other little comer being added on so we're Josi;--,'! ')','er9:1 in that. And why is it that we should give up that comer? Hoffman: It's the attachment we have in your packet indicates how the cul-de-sac, the residential cul-de.sac -\\,:111;~ rC'nfigurated and in order to allow the construction... Lash: So are you ~;/.:.t',:;nd I gJess I'm confused why someone, a developer if he has a map that shows where the park is supposed to be, would then put a cul-de-sac in a place where his lots won't fi~ 'Where his lots end up being on part of the park property. If this was designated before 1:1:- bi.d that out. I guess I'm confused why he just went ahead and put lots on our park property. I mean granted, it's not our park property yet but that was the way it was designated on tl:. m~,p. Hoffman: The plan as a concept, their concept for the residential layout happens to layout nicer if they chop thet ('rr-'ner off of the park property. 14 . . . . Park and Rec CommjsS[8n .. September 27, 1994 Lash: So do we haw', T mean can we say no? We're not willing to accept losing this comer and losing more when 1;: was lower than what we initially wanted to start with. Andrews: I think one thing to remember here is that Mr. Stockdale had an interest in seeing that western portion so':; off and not become severed as a piece of developable property. One of my concerns would he if we made this undesirable to the point where Lundgren wouldn't develop it, then we lose the whole proposition. I know what you're saying Jan. I mean if you straighten up ti-,e roc:.d on the Song side of the property and went straight down, you could probably elimiflat~ <.:lxing our comer of the park out there. Lash: You wouldn't even have to straighten out the road. All you'd have to do is eliminate two of the lots. Commissioner: Put :lle :o-;d around tr.e other way. Lash: Well the par\-: v::'" :1<;0 ::i gh up to the street and those two, you just wouldn't be able to build on tl;,ose t\\'0 lrts. Hoffman: DeveIc'rer~c C J!1'r like not using their street signs which they built and paid for and put utilities along, they like to put houses along there. ...ask for it. They might even pay for the street. Pay the a~sc'.;lT'ents on the street frontage. There's no doubt that the residential... if you wanted m,JTf :j;~,r: 19t" i;1 the park, Lash: Well I look 'H th,:, -:omer that we're losing as being more usable space than this little jet out by the street I -':~a'1 I just don't see a use for that. You know when you take out part of our open pl~y fj.~ld~, and you have a little comer up along the street, I guess I'm a little lost for what we v, r;'J.ld me that for. Hoffman: It should he "111 ?ddi'ion to open space. The larger triangle being lost in this concept is, in it's pl'(>,>~.i state, a hill side. And so unless you have a large area around it, which is...you're not going to be able to,..open space. Lash: I guess it's ~{in.i 0': the prip.cipal of things. That's my frustration. Given the fact that he had the area of '~he ; :>;-;, a'ld they chose to layout the development this way, which infringes on the pa"k pr .'ry;:r~y. I guess is kind of setting a precedent for me to say to developers, it's okay for you to lay it out the way you want it and if it takes some of our park property, th:l1';; ok,"'. We'll jPst work around it and that's okay. And that's not okay. I think when somethi::": e-t8blished, then it's established and they need to make their development work 3f(~1~;ld that And i: that means making a street bend the other direction, or that means eliminating two of the lots or whatever and if he chooses to put his street there, 15 Park and Rec Com;"lis,jml - September 27, 1994 . why should we have tD pay because then we'd have frontage on the street. That just doesn't even make sense to me. They did this after we laid out the park. Andrews: The plat to the north was already approved. Lash: Yes. Andrews: So the streer curving there, there are certain laws about how fast you can make a curve and thing~ like :;~c,t" SJ ~.O just say, why can't they just straighten that out. In order to do that Lundgren' S f,c';ng ~l) t-ave to go back and have the plat all redone which would incur costs, which I can guaL,ltee you they would want us to pay for. Huffman: Or put it in .:,c value of their houses. Andrews: No, they'd wa:1t us to pay for it because those have come up before. Mr. Stockdale, you have .~:Y" ~etti;,!? Oh, resting your hand. So I'm not sure that we can just say arbitrarily that we ',: r~ . Y~ll TO straigbten out that road and have it miss that comer. Berg: I guess I ag!,~.t \":~t> Jan to a certain extent though too. We're talking a principal here. They did know wh3t t,:) looked like before they submitted this request Is that not correct? I mean had they <;e~: t1 >? . Andrews: I gue~s the 1)0~r.t !'m making though is the Song property was an approved plat before this was eve".' """.:>/ t"ought in any kind of form to Lundgren Bras to work with. So that road was alr,="ad~ -~'q; g:~er1 with the curve turning towards the south. Lash: No, the road tc> +1.!? n xth would have already been approved. Andrews: That's '''rx ["'1 s2,ying. The road coming down from the north already had a turn. Lash: But it stoppd ri.('.ht, yon can see right where it stopped. It stopped right there. Andrews: That's rir':t Lash: So I mean to );If. ihis falls under the category of this should not have to be our problem. You know. ) mean they're the ones who are developing this other chunk of property. They kne'N ,,'I:-::-e the park was going to be. They knew where the property lines were. So they have the guys with all of the degrees on how to lay this stuff out, so you figure out how to 12.Y it out without putting it on our park property. Because if they do it, if this developer does it this time, what's going to stop the next guy from doing it? It's going 16 . Park and Rec Commi~si"ll - September 27, 1994 . to happen over and ever. Word gets out that that's okay. You can do it however you want and we'll just roll over and take it. Huffman: May I ask <;, .:~uestion? What is the amount, our usage or whatever, of the park possible to go here. Hoffman: How big a :t-.iLC,. Huffman: For our gf:i~'~'al ;'.:':':T.u]a that we use. How big a park do you look for on this site? Hoffman: We'd like tc i:e 10 acres or above. Huffman: Ane we're :,rc~ldy giving away 50% off the top. Hoffman: Corre::, Huffman: I cton'~ ~":.1': ;; ~~;:';'C~ 2' all. I think a berm's a wonderful thing separating a back yard from a 10 acre pa.'I\ I wouldn't have a problem with that. But why are we getting, I mean we're goinf ':;~ 1.:',,-:" pr,-,l;le!"'1'l with the Rottlund development down on Highway 101 with that swamp park '!"wr;~rlere. Why are we giving up park space? I mean we're talking . about trying to g~t ;' fe' :',,;\':-:dum to save land in Chanhassen. I want 10 acres. Lash: Well I cto~'t tl'j,)' \'e can get 10 acres. Huffma!1: I kn(lV! p~<;,]; .;:::-:1:, l)ut I mean that's enough. Lash: But we sett]f'Ii, u'" c.lr:,.~dy settled for 6.4. Roeser: I thougl-tt, ~T(':'rl, a'!ree with Jan. That's what we did talk about was the 6.4 acres and why, I don't unders.;;.nd eirher why all of a sudden they stuck more lots in there except they saw that he~l thi;', ';e could make some money on these lots. Better than what we can up on the road. Hoffman: Again, W[,o.~ tne c01.1ID1ission needs to remember, we're not in the driver seat here. We're a part of the l:rN'tSS \yh:h included the City of Chanhassen, Mr. Stockdale and Lundgren Bros and tha'" Jmle triangle sticking out there makes the remainder of this property somewhat irregulmhr ~>(ned. 'Nhich would be difficult if you were the person sitting down and drawing a potel',;:,] rial Cl: it. ...you would have some irregular areas on the plat. This, from a residential ~ht. i~ ~~kes good sense what they've done. Now if you want to change the configuration and ~'iiJ1 try to get 6.4 acres of park, that would be an approach that you . 17 Park and Rec C0mm~ ;:,,;i:>1 - S ~,p:ember 27, 1994 . could certainly take. To ~;ay that this right angle square is exactly what we want to see, may not be the position that we would like to take. Dave Stockdale: ...I'd just like to say a few things about what I recognize as the history of how it got to thi~ P')j,,',:'vlayhe..,but this all started out I'm sorry, Dave Stockdale. Lash: You live jus\. tc t~;~ north? Is this your homesite? Dave Stockdale: Yes. Lash: Okay. Just wan::c to be sure. Dave Stockdale: P,;r;:~;-l. T',~ been sitting back watching things happening around me. Across the street ana ~o the north and I was sitting in on one of the Park Commission meetings when a b;s ~ ,:'~ ':'~S -:};e pri'/ate park that Lundgren was proposing and... the apparent need to further upgrade for a park in the area. And there seemed to be a stumbling block with t~e LUPc[f :il'S iand... Hoffm2.r: HoVl hig ji' i,') It':. smaHer than this. We measured it in feet Dave Stockc.c.le: H:,lf >1, -l'?vbe? . Hoffman: Yeah Dave Stockdale: A """-;y, I kind of stuck my neck out and said well I'd entertain the concept of possibly putting the park next to my house if in fact the rest of the land had some marketable vahe to j;. ; fl'] T0ctd and I started dialogue. At that point I wasn't sure what the needs and the space w~re. You know be it 10 acres or 2 acres or 6 acres. So I kind of set that out for di~cussif)n 1 ')t I CCI rer:1ember 6 acres being kind of a minimum as a early conversation. Hov,. ',vc ended up with the rectangle I don't remember if that was generated by something I drew or so,,;',ething Todd drew but that kind of just sat there for a while. And then the fact that Lundgren had said, well here's conceptually what the city is talking about doing. At that tim"" I rl:'1't think we had in fill of what the park, what the playground area would be and an thlr We j!.lst had... Obviously we weren't looking at the...as an issue at that point. We were just :oo".:n~~it 6.4 acres. I went to...and said here's what's left. See what you can co with it and ';et Lick to me and I think basically he just, I don't think it was lack of respect for the c j~~, c.~ much as developers do, optimizing their efforts to get the maximum return, and so he :::arr.,. ,';;CKl,ith the slash across there. There's some logic to that in my mind since it's f')110\,,11]" the natural contours. That triangle is in...significant area, in three dimensional reaEt)" ? :;1 dng h]] that mayor may not have the value that it does for city 18 . . . . Park and Rec Commissi"n - September 27, 1994 needs for what they wan~ for the park. I understand the...the fact that you have, what's the word for it, sorry... Y (>ti i :ave ideals that you go for in the parks. It looks to me like, more than acreage, it seems ,iKe you need to satisfy the needs for the space that you want for the neighborhood. And '.vL.neI or not the option that's created now does that, is to be determined. It seem~ jike...it does. Yeah. it's an odd shape and it's less than 6 acres. I personally am open to c ;;:icus. My overall property is... 19 acres. What I've had drawn there is that new angle wl'u;.l-, oasi"':ally what my personal home status, that's the maximum encroachment be fort;' it tar;s"o impact my land. You know what my home, so what happens beyond my homestec,( i::l"t '.E\rDportant to me singularly as it is... But the problem is, it seems like it's s0me"i;- ,'L~ inbo-?t\'Je{>n. Inbetween doesn't work. It's either something similar to what Lundgren h::;:, ~';'.e ;0 make it work for them or it doesn't work for them at all and then we're back to J-~\f.!ajr., T got the impression you weren't after large acreage, just because you 'Neren'7 1)[:' '!lir\g:or a ballfield being formalized in there. ...trailland and all that but it seemed Eke :::'.' ' ,']i';'t aL't~r real formalized space. Lash: Can I ask ~u.'~ ;L. t,) l~~ir,'! '.:'5 up to date on one part of this deal? So who owns. Dave Stockdale:' '.~":' ,,: ..'Ie: Lash: You still OYV" -f it') Dave S tockcble-: Y P, Lash: Okay.j,nri <) ".'"' Tn"'" :: Dllfchase agreement out to you now for the park site laid out as it's shown? Dave Stockdale: I tJ-ii': t's vague. Hoffman: Acreage to ll,~ determined. Lash: Oh, okay. Ami t:';e.n you have a purchase agreement with Lundgren Bros to buy the other p0'tion? Dave Stockdale: \Jub2:1y... Yeah, it's complex because I can't, from my point of view I need to sell parL.len,)'", ,n'! r:cv/ the other part was falling so Todd...Roger Knutson and my attorney got together a:<l tried YO hammer it out and that's when these issues started to come into the forefront Vln~;::. m~)bably says it's a good reason to... 19 Park and Rec Comm~s:;icm - September 27, 1994 . Berg: Help me with m;.' memory too, if you can. Wasn't there something that was stated earlier from Lundgren E.-os that they had a minimum number of acres they needed to make it so that they would devchp. Or wasn't that ever stated. Dave Stockdale: I (',m' ~ rem~mt-/"r hearing that one. Andrews: I never he<:.h: t:,U ;1ere. Dave Stockd:!1e: l:11i]":!: !o.~:'5tiC'llly something along this line where they get dual access. The road is... Lash: Okay, that kind of changes my position. I mean I guess I was more under the impression t'1at we ";,~~,, "Jrthe:' forward in this process and that these things had been decided and already cu. and dried and then Lundgren was coming in and. Dave Stockdale: N.), i; 'i net 'chat. Lash: Right. Dave Stockdale: It' 5 )".lc...wcrk that's in the middle somewhere. . Lash: Net thr.! kir:.d C' ~',-~ff ibe~n't happen. Because it does and that's why I get so frustrated when I see tl :..; stuff because I know I've seen it before. Dave Stockdale: No, ~ d,1n't think they were absolutely stepping on boundaries that were already :-e.d lined. 1 am o::;en to however you want to approach it but ultimately I think, as you said, it's probably accurate at some level, if it gets too small then... Andrews: I guess one ld'~a that ,iust came to mind for me would be, it appears that most of the property on the \\',:-i."T er1~Te ':hat we had wished to have is quite sloped. One of my ideas as an aJtern(!tive ";i,)ll~d be to try to see if the city might be able to come to an agreement with you Mr. Stockoale personally, at such time you decided to sell your house voluntarily, that yet: IT j:~j-;t s-eJ] i! to the city so the city could then recover that flatter front portion ta add to the p"'~'~ rr')j)l~rty at some later date. Dave Stockdale: 'With rny homestead? Andrews: Yeah. Dave Stockdale: Ha',~ Y('11 betD ont there? 20 . . . . Park and Rec Com;',;}';";;'i1 September 27, 1994 Andrews: No. Hoffman: I don't know that tl.1e city would want to. Andrews: J don't kr')w ,~Jther. Hoffman: Unless t}-,ere's a real striking issue to go ahead and buy some of these houses out and we can... Andrews: Now how Lluch, it l:::>oks like you've got a fairly good slope there along Galpin there, right? Dave Stockdale: Y~a]-,. ','a!'"...pretty good incline to it and that... Andrews: So you ~i' l~f 'ike 0:" ~ Ettle knoll? Dave Stockdale: Ye::h, my house is on a knoll and what's limiting that new angle is there is a wetland pone... The":'~ a p:1'o right in here...otherwise that w€>uld be an option too. I'm not sure that that v;'ouL~ fit. J can't judge that... I mean I think if the city really wanted to...go for it, I don't ne,\\' if chat's a possibility or not. The only other thing I'd say is, I'd like to kno\v what c'i:\,(,' Y, :his ~s going because I've got other people who are hammering at me to make some ueCbJflS. Manders: I've got one::pestion for you. Am I to understand then that you're basically in favor of this ccnfi;"l:;~.~icl~ tt <It's laid Ollt? Or not. Dave Stockdale: It \VI. .':;. for 'Tie.. Manders: That'~ ,"l'.~T c '.\'<1:1t;:>r1 ~o blOW. Okay. Because I mean you're as much in the drivers selt as aflY: x.: . Dave Stockdale: R:~}!t. \1y only concerns are that it doesn't encroach so much on my homestead that it "101::1t:':" my n::ivasy and that it doesn't encroach so much on the non homestead leftovers tl-?~ it makes it a dead zone. So beyond that I'm pretty flexible. It seems to me that jf (lcrr:"1e is 2f' issue, again I'm sure Lundgren's pretty creative and they can figure out some wav, 1 don't think this triangle works for them at all. Just because it cuts right in~o tl.1e f0:"rl :0. nrl if...ga;ning more acreage for either an absolute reason or for a special use. They c.': ""nlJably address to that more than... 21 Park and Rec Commi~',Jii~r; - September 27, 1994 . Andrew~: I guess tal:' ,~:;~,.mcl1':s I'd like to make is that what we're trying to get here is some active play area. In my opinion, for us to buy acreage that's on a sloped hillside, although it may be ni~e fer sliding and it may look nice, you know we are buying the property. It's not goir.g to be deeded or given to us as any kind of a dedication. I personally don't feel that's a wi";,,, :nvest:nent for us. Just a comment. So I guess, although I would support having more lu,yJ. it appears to me that's not a viable option here. With that being the case, I would be 'k:;ling :0 take this as it's proposed. That's my statement. Lash: The site it~e:" Andre'.vs: Yep. Lash: Are you inclurlirl' thf' n':"rm? Andrews: Oh. I'd 'V1Ct!;f' t-~r:n en sClmebody else's land. Lash: Yeah. I WOl1 j :j':'~e with that. Berg: You're accepti'lL. I'm not sure. 6.4 or 4.9? Andrews: Well th~~ rrr:-~os:11 i;<; ~hcwn here by Lundgren to me I think is the best alternative . that we can hope for wn,l this Darticular piece of land. Huffman: But the berm is not on park property. That runs in their back yards. Andrews: The berm is a'~ the convenience of Lundgren and therefore should be on their properl:Y. Huffman: And thE'.! (1~,::; not count as park property, is that what you're saying? Andrews: That's cone;:t Hoffman: That's a ScQcrate issue from this. Andrews: If they want CJ build a berm on their property, that's their decision. Dave Stockdale: Kif;(. "I 0ff the record. I don't know what it's going to do... 22 . . . . Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Lash: They think i: wi, keep people from running into people's yards. But I look at it as being more of a bench to the residents than the park users. Right. If they want a berm, that's fine but not on the park property. So do we need to do a motion? Andrew~: Yes we do. Lash: Okay. I would move .hat we accept the alteration to the original park configuration as shown on this dra\vi:<. ~jtlt that we would deny the request for the construction of the berm on park property Meger: 1'd second. Andrews: Any fllrtll~r discussion? Lash moved, Meger ~c~0!lded tbat the Park and Recreation Commission accept the alteration to the (lrir:L~' pr:.rl~ t'onfiguration on the Stockdale property as proposed, and deny the request by L',rdgren: Brothers Construction for the construction of a berm on park property. AI1 '7:'t::d in favor, except Huffman and Berg who opposed, and the motion carried wit h ~ vote of 5 to 2. Lash: Would you ""';:' C0mment on your. Berg: I'd like t:' hc\Yf ;+ 70 h:JC1~ te Lllncgre, BIOS and work at a new configuration. I'm not happy at all with ~i.\';,.(, 'on hch to "I park 1:.l]at's already too small. HuffmRr': 1 f'.ecor.d P';'-.' Andrews: Okay, noted. Dave Stockdale ask.:lJ a '~~uesticn that could not be heard on the tape. Huffman: No, Wh3+ T'r-rJ 10;!')C! i~ now basically I'm voting principal. I mean there were enough votes to Jet it:;,iTY. Therefore I can throw my no vote in and it means nothing. I mean seriously, in ',:,ll' that'~: what it means. I'm voting principal here because I would like to see 10 acre~. J \\<ould like to see a big park. I would like to see an area that is park deficient foUow tre ?liide2ines that have been established. There's been a lot of things that have done before this potnt. I'm way too late in the process. I'm not going to stop anything that I don't reall)' 1Z'!')\':.'. BUT you know, you did a very nice job. Do you want to be on our task force. No, I mean our votes are, yes we'd like to see something and Mr. Berg spoke eloquently here au: it':: ;'2r~r.e. 23 Park and Rec Commiss:ul1 - September 27. 1994 . Andrews: Todd, who eWES the l,Jroperty directly adjacent to the south? Is that Swings? Hoffman: ...single fal,;j~y residence. Dave Stockdale: ... Hoffman: Very cUlio_~s ,~bOLt what's going on. Probably not going to sell. Andrews: Alright, '.'':'1) ,;o'Jd. Let's move on. OFFICIALL Y NA~:J:~_JhE NE"" CITY RECREATION BUILDING BEING CONSIR!JC.TEQJN_(.QN~J';CTION WITH THE NEW DISTRICT 112 ELEMENT ARY SCIls)OL AT HIGHWAY 5 AND GALPIN BOULEVARD. Hoffman: Everyone bs...referred to this building as the community center. That including the...put on the Sigll ,t,']>. ;.:. W3S phced at the construction site. Then we started receiving the calls, you're finally buik'.ing :11at community center... Upon discovering what's in it, they're not excited anymore. T\ey're:n fact disappointed so we need to refer to this thing apprcpr:atd:'. I lxI:~ ';' L, l C~i\nrafSCn R.ec:reation Center is an appropriate name for it. I . would thiak tter! tht~ .~.: Y.,' lw:pl~ v.;cul~: nickname it the Rec Center. Kids want a rec cente: (!lei W,,"- .\.::tn' d u' l'l~nt;'.1 a 1: i~ th' ccm:nission has other ideas, I'd be very open to hear them... Lash: I think that'~ ':t ,,':1i cl~ar. to the point name, although. But... Okay, I guess what I was kind of think.:ng over '..- ': '.vef:Il:-:1d, and I don't feel real strongly about this but I want to throw it out. I just thc).:;ght it f'l;ght make it convenient, I mean who knows what the new element1.ty is goino t,) b. --;:Tll'd 1l1timate1y but maybe it would be convenient if it had a tie in with the mm':' sf tr.;:- ~'':''1'e''lt"T'l jP':t :or geographical reference. So if we do end up with a comrnunity C~r:tf:- f'\"il.'':U)' ::1 ~ll(l:her part of town, it would be, you know say the elementary was calleo, 1 have no idea. Say they called it West Elementary or Galpin Elementary or somethi n g iike that. The name for the rec center would have also a tie in with that. Hoffman: If it's Galpin :t could be Galpin Recreation Center. Bluff Creek Elementary, Bluff Creek Rec"eatio'l:-:-nter Huffman: 'Ve're nClt -. :.jn~~ 'IJ: nrrr-e OT') this thing forever are we? Hoffman: Sure. '!(n ':-l~ g(,ing tc put it on the wall. 24 . . . . Park and Rec Comr[:.i::,sicm - September 27, 1994 Lash: I guess thats \\.L rm, I c;on't know that I'm real comfortable putting a name on. Huffman: We can caP : !l~Kt. Where are you going? Next door. Lash: The gym. Hoffman: The enti;'.> ,\..~ol C::str:ct...Bluff Creek Elementary. The City of Chanhassen Bluff Creek Recreation Ce:'.~':': 0, Ch:mhassen Recreation Center? Roeser: Is that what: the ~;cl1JO] is going to be called? Lash: No, no. We rav,~ no idea. Roeser: So we don't Ic'() \v. Bllt it's not impossible to change it. What you're saying Todd is you want sl)m~tr;"" ~ ~ -, ~,~ fe::- ~') this so when you're talking about it, you're not referring to it as the commlmh' ,.r.'J:,~" b'l: a~ a recreation center. Andrews: h that a 'T,:)t~C."? Roeser: Yeah. Tha::'~ h<:ic21'V my motion. I think that's what we should do. Hoffman: I th~nl~ \\;';"~ \"11] ,^<l'.:lS an hterim name and postpone the official name of the building until thf' ~,,:,l,n(' ;" n."'l1~d, Lash: Yes. Hoffman: Or do you ,','art to go fIrst? Lash: They aren't going to care what we name the rec center. They'll choose what they want so, Berg: Yeah, and we i' ;,arre it the same as the school, then it eliminates all questions as to where it is. Lash: 'VeIl, and if we den'! like the name of the new school, we can go with whatever we want but. Andrews: Make a motion. 25 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 . Huffman: I make c proposal that we refer to the place as the Chanhassen Recreation Center. Roeser: Second. Berg: Would you acce:}~ a friendly amendment that it would be...on an interim basis. Lash: Until the nai11::rlt; c~. the elementary school. Are you accepting that amendment? Andrews: He did aJr~2rly. Huffman: Yes sir. Huffman moved, R('('~('r "ccop.d\~d that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City CouncH GfficiaHy name the new city recreation building being construction at the intersection of ~~::gh"'ay 5 ~nd Galpin Boulevard as the "Chanhassen Recreation Center" on an inte::im basis until the District #112 names the new elementary school. All voted in favor :!1t1rl the motion carried. EST A~l...IS1'-1.294/95_~~KA TING RINK PROGRAM. Jerry R1Jeg~m.eT)fl' ,~'1tl'r:! tr~ ~tnff report on t':1is item. . Andrev'~: Whrr ' '\ l"~i' ;; '1" tc b!~ 11 light pnt in at North Lotus? One like the street light type thing Ruegemer: I know Lk> ';e going to work up there presently and Todd would have to address that. Hopef:111~' ~h~:'C' \~ ~'IJ..i. b~. . Andrews: That's wh?~ '''e were !}Jing ta do this year, yeah. Okay, any other comments? Hoffman: I.~ ther~ ;Jfl:/ ,.,t~1?" l')cC'(ons? We've often heard from residents in other neighborhoods that want n rink and the standard answer is that this is reviewed on an annual basis by the Park Com~l1i,sion. They've approved this. You're not going to get one...next year. Lash: So who's asked for one? Hoffman: Power PJli\. Las askea for one. Curry Farms Park has asked for one. Pheasant Hills Park h~s askeci for c "C". 26 . . . . Park and Rec Commis:-icIn - September 27, 1994 Huffman: What is ~;. ';: '~S', of putting one in? Hoffman: It's lato; .iL;; 11 '':~ ,u. v 1".... Andrews: And shor ',,~ Lash: Well if we lOJ;';' ,.~ the l'equests, how about Chan Hills, haven't they asked for one? Hoffman: .:"Tot thRt ! 'T', ~:Pe~'... Lash: And tbar (n~,: " 'or:' Hill, maybe we need to discuss. The rest of them, Curry Farms, there's one ire C,c;er Beach. There's one at North Lotus. The same for Pheasant Hills. There are scri:f~ ~c, ,i:-ly close there but there are none on the south side of TH 5. Huffman: W:mld "r1' t"' :'('f1~thj:r1g that would fit into a referendum? If they did not have access to one again H,lS year, that might spur the thought. Or it just doesn't make any difference. Hoffma;l: N::>, it' <; , :tue geti'1g i~;~,ue. What do you want your people to be doing. Spending time TI:?kl:1[ '-:~ or doir:g other things. It's an allocation of resources. Manders: Is there &1,) l~ICa or numbers on usage of the existing pleasure rinks? I mean is there one of these ~~? ;'-~1~!~~ could be pl1ased out just due to low usage. Hoffman: MinnewaSht3 T-leights has always been discussed if that should be phased out. That discussion con-:.e,':.,.p,.. Roeser Well C01"C'1'~ 'V'~ 9fhrd Fke addi:!1g a new one every year? Hoffman: Sure. Roeser: You know }lrt one down at Chanhassen Hills. Huffman: What d0.~~; ;. :'vst us fer doing that? ...explain me the difference on the ones you do versus the one we d., n0v'n at Rice Marsh Lake. They bring the dozer down. Clean circle the digmona <".It, l' ~~n .W~. Thev put water on the ground. Hoffm?,": Tl1~y're -r,C", than you think. Huffman: But they',e c':"7"stan!ly sweeping and water. 27 Park and Rec Con~L:~s:;~c;n - September 27, 1994 . Andrews: I think we:':e.:l one south of Highway 5. Lash: Yes. I would b'~~ cp~n to either Power Hill or Chanhassen Hills. I guess I would like more information from you Todd as to which one you think would be more conducive to a rink and would h2v'" b':'t'er access and have good topography and also the population there. If you think there are more homes in one area than the other. Hoffman: We'!c g')i:::'. t() have to de".l with them separately because people from Power Hill aren't going to run over to Chan Hills to use their rink. They're going to get in their car and drive...so what we' :'(':(Yr':.'<:sir.(11~, we'1] try to provide walks out to our neighborhood use. In Chanhassen Hills Yol' can probahly do it. The access there is off of the trail. Off of either the parking lot, tha. t-'.;1. tP",mgh the p2rk, past the playground and up the hill and onto the ball dizmond. So if'S r.:';r "eal convenient to get there. Power Hill, there's really no location there. The location ill: neighborhood should be at Sunset Ridge Park and again, access is a problem. At the currtm time we're looking forward to the point when the road goes through anC we hav,,:, " 1"'2rking lot 2nd we have access directly into that spot which...Sunset Ridge Park for a fm~~re ice sheet, ",tether it be hockey rink or winter skating. So the appropriate place ir. the.' r;'~;8hborhood, which is Lake Susan Hills, is at Sunset Ridge. If we start doing t1:1at tl1:'; ye:lL it's problemafc to chive up and down to. Andrc\:>/s: It's ;3]SCi lire'!: to Like awa~1 a rink once you've started it. . Lash: I gueso;; I'd b~ r.Tfo..l ~8 ~~ntertalnip.g that putting one in at Chanhassen Hills this year and then if Sunset Pid~"? was reC',cy next year or the next or whenever, that's maybe, I'd try one there. I Jook ;]f 'l'~u~ ;i": l,eing f:u enough apart that, and they don't have easy access to a rink like a 10t of th~ .)t" f'f pe: ),;,1,:, do. Manders: The other t}-;i ng with Power Hill is that probably is more along the lines of the sliding !1iH that WI; ".~ i,. ::1 tr: '1ki;lg about a:1yway. Berg: I rave a C1.H>tlO:' 'bJl,.t POWf:"s though. Is that the park that I asked you about that most of it's up on 111':" ~il1. J recogn;ze that. Then there was that other parcel down below. Would 3 skating rirk :,~;;] th:re? Lash: It'd be hard to~'e.. to. Berg: Thef';"s a !n,:l r' ",t inl,: ~t. 28 . . . . Park and Rec Commis,jcm - September 27, 1994 Hoffman: There's J tr:.... ~ inbetwecn two houses and then it drops off. It's such a significant grade that driving a trucK back out of there would be kind of difficult. Or very difficult. And then in essence he woulJ be flOoding the rink in the back yards of 10-15 people. So the skating rink would oeL their jack yards. Lash: Actually I wasL' ~ even thinking about access for the truck. I was thinking about access for people. Roeser: The t,n:ck'"... tu ,;~": t!1e[.~ t~ough. Lash: Ye1h, I k;1'J", ;, ,U '~V;."; for people it would be tough. Is there a way that we could put one ;n at Ch",..,l-., ',n ~,~:r:l1( th;~ "p"r') ... . -" ".l.:.l.. . .}. '.. , . ~ ,.:l ,__, oI't.....~. . Hoffmai1: I.llletp:;r?.:..+.ec.lt.f.eretomorrowandtakealookatit.lt.s probably a 3:1 grade r;,ght at t1-.::t ben)' so we rr:ay have to take...!'ll give Dale the discretion to make that decision whether or nct ''-ceil' trunk will service that location. Once they get up there, they kill the gras~' ':In b<i. ',i," ,]j:,'::, '" ot~~; lccation and then seed it next spring with a new lawn grass. Andrew~: Let', try'')'': :'l:\t :J'~t t'S l:.aow if it's not possible. Lash: And ~);en k~,>" ,!'."irj ':';: ~l_:\lSe~ Ridge one as a future. Andrews: Lefs ~')"e :'-, Prcg::"IIT' Reports on Lake Ann Park and Concessions and EquipJ:1ent Rental Hoffman: Was thee ,;,~,'iol1 on number 67 Roeser: Do we need ,. Tlotion? Hoffman: Yeah... Lash: \Vell I wC".lJ:': n1'" 'C th:lt we approve the skating program '94/95 as submitted by Jerry with the amendmem war We WOUld investigate installing recreational or pleasure skating at Chanhas5en Hil15. Berg: Second. Lash moveri. Berg s~concleu that the Park and Recreation Commission approve the 1994.95 skating pro~ram as proposed with direction to staff to investigate installing a 29 Park and Rec COln:-.1i~.).,)r:- September 27, 1994 . pleasure skating rink at Chanhassen Hills Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PROGRAM REPQBI~~ A. LAKE ANN P ARI~_ CONCESSIONS AND EQUIPMENT RENTAL B. SENIOR CEI\-....Er;: FALL ACTIVITIES. Lemme: Ch2inra'J;\ 10 !xrE':n~.lisiQP~~<;, ~tem 7(a) and 7(b) are both mine and they're strictly informational s.) if Y(ll.':iI',~ any questions, I'll... Andrew';: PJI~:hc"t' 'j': ~1nestions on items 7(a) or (b)? Hearing none, let's move on item 7(c). C. CCl\TBI[)FJ'..\ ~{Y'~'Q~\"l~NT_~_:I!.t!'ALLFIELD RESERVATION AND USE POLICY REGARDI~ (; USE OF NEIGHBORHOOD BALLFIELDS AND WEEKEND RESEl!V&IIQN~ Ruegemer: Thank yo,-~ Chairman Andrews. This is going to be a review...we just finished our bus~' se2SW'] ?f'e1v,;, :t's :;.!!;.:' to look ahead again. It'd be nice to make some sound decisions regarding :~;': .)95 outdoor facility usage for next summer and it'd be nice to take a . look at some pC'1ic!es Td pr,:;'.:~dures for next year get ironed out before too long here while theY'f/: ::<11 f:e~'1 i"" ;', -:')'\ <,',; r~e1ilGD,' 'V:e did take a look at the CAA, or Chanhassen Athletil..: A':Dciati~ll" ":,)p'.'lr.... Gi1~'S ~(JZJnn program. Those type of uses are certainly goinf '0 ir.C'f(,~-t. For next year I think we need to be proactive in this...take a look at some of those uses. \Ve've :-dshed over the neighborhood park issues before and then we all know what a can of W0f1llS tr1 l~ is hetwecn cars parking, privacy, that type of thing. I think it's importallt as a (,c~l1rn' ,"' 'Jr. ~h2: W~ take a look at that type of use again and make a sound decisicr. in re~::iics 0" .:l, \Ve also need to take a look at reviewing weekend use for such areas as ("Jf comnwni:',)c:b ,;:r{~ 'J<;e for soccer practice, baseball practice, girls softball practire:, and t!'0Sr> ";'; ;' '. ~~c;, \"e ",HI fe~ some, a little bit of a breather. We did get additioml fi.elds ('11< li,' ,".f l,:"}f;, '.Jmn:~~:- r.eas:m. if the grass is developed by that time. We'lll{~ow that after ;v:':t Y-::I after tbe planting season. How that comes along but we need to make some ~l ,1It ;:~L-l~esls to get tc that point in order to better serve our residents. We need to take 1 Jock P.t -~:ght(lrlY)orj use for such ages. For instance 4th grade for T-ball. For 2nd and 3rd gr~do -r;ftb;E p~ogram. Ri:'gball. Pee wee programs. Those types of uses that wC'lIe! hav;, ;:, r:'. ;\ ., ;r,- 'j~e (If probably 2 or 3 months during the course of the summer. We did t,,!(e a JreI;'~ ',:'; i. ,~'Jr, al10 also we took a look at the issue on practices during the weekenc\s. We h(ld v: Pid; BroW:l come h1 from the Chanhassen Legion program with such a request. J kp().v t.:),. "':"l:-;\'<~~.,';' be coming again next year again. I think it'd be in the 30 . . . . Park and Rec Commj~,i()ll - Seotember 27, 1994 best interest of t;ie leE 1}];S,;;JC!1 CD lCl,(e a look at that. Make a sound decision. If we want to take a lOClk ~t enk"::U. ~l,~" To cO certain degree limiting hours such as we do with Mr. Brown, or eli,r,inatl ,fJ ~ u'ic ,Ltogethei", or to,..because I know with the increasing populations with those youth a~.'iOcLt;oIlS, ~he::e's going to be increased time and stress put on our facilities, You kno..\ c\.:T~n:ly lhey are gaing for the most part 5 days a week, you know first come, fIrst serve Oil S:'.b';:':'YS :'or practices and that type of use so the fields are getting a lot of use during tho>;,( 2, 3 ~'..::.trs during the summer. So we need to take a look at that. Possibly reviev/ing:;.i. .., ::;: crne, filst serve policy and then taking a look at some of those issues ':h3: aros( ;1\.;' . ::, TX' ~Lr:llel-, !t might make sense to limit those uses to our Chanh<.'J~'l COlTI1,;'~:r::: ';: ,.','J~' w;tr: :he r.bt:ndance of parking and being able to accommcdate tl1.;,(": :, r~ ;,?S, ; b1JV' picnics might be an issue. I know we need to take a look at that 31:d ; f 'N~ ];fe-:i to...I've ?lw1Y~, IT:Bde that available to people at Lake Susan. If somebody doe5 sd" 1.,',,:: '~:"7J;.:', T 2)WClYIi men~ion that there is a possibility that Mr. Brown might be there ane ).,;. .::'>~ d.1T:r~,; that scheduled practice time so that's just the policy issue tr:-Tl~, It ceTt": ;', " u; 1~,(~ '''r:':'f.<>d ~hrc'llgh in that case. So if the commission, it'd really be ver:! i'11r:"~t''::. .\. 1 \(.~: " t S'.:'illP' of th')se issues and get that resolved while it is still fresh in C"lf r."\ppw,' f"'" 'he -:V': rT'1m~r. We can discuss that type of policy for next year. Andrevlc: TJ-12I'J",)' , ,;,,,rL. ~() n1:' lik~ YOll have really several different issues here that need to ~e real! wi'h. '}1"r~ rr.en 1J'Y -=,Tchlems with the field reservation with the ball team that came in tre"e'1 Rueger"er: Mr. Prr.",,'t Andreu'~: Ye<:, Ruegemer: Chaf1j;;I'('i~'''7 '\01".;' tlnt I'm aware of. Andrew~: Obv T <i!-:!~, ~ tr.;'ll( there would be and I'm surprised. I guess one comment I would make and thj~, I,; (;'ilv Ll-l.;;ed on my expenence with soccer this year, which has been almost 5, or ') da~'s (1 "II.'':'K. I would predict that soccer next summer will probably grow by at least 30%, Fielrl sn:!"" tbs tal] there ha<;; been as many as 18 teams up at Middle School West at ont ~;ght. Jt". qoin? to be a real cru!1ch so we are going to be forced to deal with this issue of priontiljli~, and reservmg space, One observation I'm making is that these fields just can't ria )dle L~~" ,r;::, ,,1-ley ',e' [:ettmg and I think we probably need to stick to our guns and say that Thert. '.!t certain times that we're not going to reserve for organized teams. I m~an the "itlds illT [)-,1f2. lJc'>U'('y-:-d and ':..1cy'1l be of no use to anyone if that happens. Lash: I \Vou~ri DUO ,} :'I~'~l CO'''l1m{:r,ts J~::-ry t;lat we would look at limiting weekend practices and gam~~i to (3 ,:tr.a:"': .'r-; 1-F:: :,)t IDllfs, a'3 we did with the Legion, so there wasn't a conflict 31 Park and Rec ComnlS'i"11 - September 27,1994 . with people m&king rc,:~::v aLions for those facilities. And also allowing activities at the community parks and 1:(: a:: neighborhood parks. If you want to review the fIrst come, fIrst serve policy, I'm gnho 1:;~; thrJw om an idea. I don't know if it will fly but if it was a team who wanted to hav..: :; -; ;-,1gcing scheduled time, that you would put out into all of the literature at regiStr8,ti'1 ,'imc th1t ;f they \Vant to book every Saturday or every Sunday afternoon or whatever" ~L~)' would hc:.ve to have all their requests in to you by a certain date and you'd knew fy,r} C;,?;:.':' wantd to have a scheduled practice and then you could look at that and try and Cgc:L out how you can spread that out equitably so everybody gets a little time imt~ild of ;T' ,r, ;: ,IC':'rlf~ ~e~ting a :ot of time. And then if there was one shot request that say (One t~::m ,;' '-:t :: 'Ill" UT' C\":: time :tnd tney want to try and get in a quick practice, that would be an <l fir:,: ('-'~'. fi~<;~ ~:c"'e b:"s~~ on something that you could fInd that's open. Andre'l!~: I g1]~S~ I'd 1>;", t) ':t'f ce;-:.?i"'" T guess the term I'll use is blackout times when, that we would no~ re-:e::-'.'t' " ;,ce {i"r:\ 'ct. Roeser: I t:t1ink SCl;.:i;',i~ ~~e r~;:;' ta do th2t. Really. With use of the park, you're leaving it open f0f ?e)pk ~r;:: j ',' \"~1-' ,n :,;d: ~1p p'11es or people that want to use the park. I don't think there should he> ,':n:ril'l'?:1 ry'"actices in the park on Sunday. Andrew~: J gut'S"! ," :n _ ')~, prc-h'nch tir post dinner time is prime picnic time and I feel . that W~ shou].j S'1Vt. ~nl ~;'''''''e f('1" Dirk up or the walk in public. Lash: Okay, or norn t~_ what's ihe lJsual rental time for the park shelters? Ruege1T)e!: For ~",~ sh 'C''':, ;t'df Dery~nding on what size of the group but typically set up is no eRrlier than i ,);()!, :1:- i J :0:) ?..ffi. Depen:is on what kind of a group. A lot of times it's 11:00 or noon until 5:(:..' [IT 6:()[i. Lash: Sc ~1:! wt:' ~1i': 7"" ~Lmg, "Ie viouldr,'t '1che.dule anything between noon and 6:00 and then that would K:L: [~Jjl1c;d:;.'/itn. Ruegemer: We have i c :ake a look at too what park you're talking about. Lash: V/t'l1 if yo],; "'C;J:l,l:li; ,t Sus~m and Ann. Hoffman: That's on,; i,l..dc;o. I don't think you'd ever see 6 pick-up games on Lake Ann. At a mJxirnt'n; f:e'ri", _ 'Ii (; :,::"t th:- grcl;p tlse because the people are coming... Andrews: That's fine. You couid give us some guidance there but I think we should have some fields tbat iu~,. :;':',' :wt rt;'s~rved for thof.e periods. .52 . Park and Rec COlvn'~ <11, ' Se:W:mbei' 27, 1994 . Lash: Or mayb~' y"~ ,~1 WL:: D. jf you want to try and pick up on Jim's comment about allowing the field ~'Jme ("!JW;l tir'y; or recovery time. Maybe you want to come up with a schedule where you 11i;) fop it every other weekend. You know 1 thru 3 and then the next weekend it's 4 thru~. :: GO,,'t know. I'm just throwing out ideas here. Ruegemer: ...the fi;ls . ,l:3, 31e b~illg used during the weekend would be number 1 and number 2...for tJ<it ;() '1, ~2, lG the 16 age baseball program. They're not really coaching into the... Andrews: Tr,e0.e') ::: ,C:':ClT Lr. seeing are the soccer fields. Right in front of the goals. Unfortunately C(\2C:-l~, Crp", j'ive e.lm!;~ sen~e to pick up the goals and move them away frOr:1 the gamc~:a; ~J~' " ;;"cl ye': ('an run J ve:-:-y effective practice out anywhere in grass. I think that's somethin~: ' ,:LC th~ ~ity needs: to work with on the soccer program. Give them some dir:ctio:1 h~C1' <';1':; ':..:.: (L~<,tro~!ing a game field for no good reason and the fields just cannJt t:;>l-Cf the l'c' j:'!,,: f'.1t tJ:ey're getting from these soccer programs. It's just unbelievable. Hoffman: ""'':' '<:'-3:" .' ',:- 1\:n PRrk wit~ tl,e irrigation that you, and the fertilization schecll:1e tl-J.:::-e is iu;', . Lash: Well if WF: t",..y, on: ')T~ cf those times to you, does that give you some guidelines to wriv I"J c. pCi1;:'," ': \..' "'c ";;,~,I; 'J' ;is? Ruegemer: Yes. Lash: T guus I '.r;-"i~T'1j I or '/ery "ITor.;ly about not scheduling the neighborhood parks for::)ff."'~r;~d S')OJ1'. ,L",( r~1':' ottler thing that's going to happen is. Huffman: Are yon t.1'C.11 cr 'Jl:'0']i iirtie J<jrj" m:"!d everyone too? Lash: Everyone. Huffman: I'd like to se,:; it gar_e. Every one of them out. And the insidious reason for that is, we c.1oC'o,;t force iU " ; ,::c:"', J w~_nt the referendum to go through. People have to feel there j,' ? '1eec in tr;,,> ~'c,:lllmmit)' and if they say oh gosh, we can go down the neighborhood park. 1'<0. That's nm t;;e use for that park. Lash: What we're '1t.;!:' ;s pJ~:ing a banciaid on a problem and then people won't vote for the referendum. . 33 Park and Rec Com::l1S'(',:J ' Sep'emher 27. 1994 . Huffman: ...salved or n-:t ar:d 1 want them out. And have them call me. You know I've got 2 little kids too. Lash: You know aa0 ;:: may only be 2 or 3 months out of the year but that's the only time that peopl'e repl]y e',f', '\;m;, t;:, li't" rl']e park ~myway. Huffman: That's wher. I can gCi down to my park on Tuesday night and I can't go there. Shorten it. Make it sl'i;)'t. Roese!': \Ve do sched\~~: tt.e'11 for games though, right? Neighborhood parks, you still do that. Lash: Yo. Rice' ~,f)F: Andrev'~: Kor~h 1.8~',' "C'" do. Huffman: Yeah. W,~'-;1 ;'m sa:,'i'1g is g::me altogether. Create a shortage. Lash: And as soon as :he new elementary opens, I really think is a goal we want to get it out of Rice \1arsh total:y, Ruegemer: I'm tryng ~'-' (b tiLt from year to year but just with the increase in numbers, that's.., . Lash: YVell when \T ~.' 'h"~f? new fi~Jds, that !leeds to be looked at. Huffmair Oh, I 'JM,c:'"':'~I:L1d :J-.ar hut ! mean if we keep making little solutions here for them to acccn;nor!?te, \\ ? 're nc: going to get a referendum passed. I mean if they don't perceive a need to have this, ','e11::;;-; we Tec.l1y want to add so much money to our, well we can go to Rice Mar~h. '.Ve c: '. 1-.:,':, p1:l> 'IG';m t!:.ere. Or we can go wherever. Manders: I think that l~ more of an education issue. I understand where you're coming from on neigl:~')orh()()d U<;'''T'' ~'lt 2 lot 0f peonle are going to say that that park sits there empty and nobody uses it. And they're te~l1flg us that we can't use that park. Why do we need a referenc'lm? Roeser: Oh GO, w:,,'-.\~ ~:l~t "2.ying we wcn't schedule. Huffman: Yeah, you C2.11 go down there and play. If you want to take your two teams down there 2.'ld prr,':i:ice. 34 . . . . Park anci j{ec Commiss~8r - September 27, 1994 Mande~'~: But fer SC~1~.'u)ing ;::;rI;ose~, I mean they're going to be talking like that. Huffman: I can gu,1't'J.lliee you Tuesday at 5:00 to 6:00, from 6:00 to 7:00, from 7:00 to 8:00, three T-ball gan1es. b ~'o''Jtel;' r.ct. Manden: And they're ;!':"1irg to come back to you and say, well you're asking for more park space. Huffmn'1: It'f, a ne' ,:+:,J':v'd ",::'k. Mande;"~: Ar.d th?"~; ,; t I''11 get!ir;? at. There just needs to be more education. And not be so blT1t Sly:')'.?t ~;(1Y> ~"8t\'(;1l ('an't use it, because they don't understand why. Andrev.";: I thin',,-: "::' Y d a ITI)Iion to do this. This is a dramatic change from what we've done. HoErr,.": Y\"ar. T ,,",,1:J li\r'" .", ,'dd SO'11e comments as well. As far as Rice Marsh or Carver Beach and T:'1Jyt:e, North Lotus Lake Park, the Park Commission has the political clout to clo~e !ho,,>t;> ievm, '/~~~:;')" Gre:,"" Prk which, if you take a look at it, is additionally being L'~ed b;;,?i-:-Js S(.~.>,11 J ""leaf' trat'~ j12St their home field. That's their home practice field. That's where t!1:-:: play their games and a park which is a large neighborhood park, was laic1 out ell, ':'arll~.e ,', If ; ,,', C'l;;'r want haHfields, which now in neighborhood parks, we're not building bal1f;eJds. Take the ballfield out of Rice Marsh or take it out of Carver Beach. Shan of dO~:1g i:11:n. nc putting in new ones, which is good if you don't want that actually to h?upen, V,-",)W G-e~rj, that'" going to be a real nightmare. Huffm:m: v Ol~ ~3~! th:, t', :;: b; g:!~" nark. Roeser: T1at'~ ~J let t..-i.:;:". Hoffml.1."': 'Ne 11l'r:} L" iJ.;r;t a:'e'v cf :h~~,e, pick and choose. If you want to take the neighborl1Clocl parh ';"",.1 ,:'je1:Meadow Green is classified as a neighborhood park within the city cf Cha:>hY'\e'1. HU"frrc.Y1: ~;Yel1 hIlt it;') r rmming in tre wrong direction. I'm saying let them bleed to fmd out what the real need i". 1 mean yes, that's drastic. I'm asking is that too drastic. I mean is that some :l}ir: g rhot '\I'} ! ,~. are .u~t going to scream... Lash: ['m r,('t ~(yil~; 1': Fe r,~(~d ~) aiter what we're doing now. I'm saying I'm not open to e}:par.'~;n[' i~ :1ry fn..t"(;:' thv we ~lready have because all that's going to do is encourage 35 Park and Rec Commis~j()n - September 27, 1994 . that to happen more ar;c more. Pretty soon it will be scheduled in every neighborhood park and it's not Wh3t th~q '~'e int~nded for. Hoffman: ...over your head. And it's always been the intention of staff, because we've heard the direction from t'le " ,:',1l11i-;sion to, through...get out of Rice Marsh, get out of Carver Beach and get out of the neighborhood parks. But each time we bring on additional fields, if you want to take theni ~.'-,o.y, fiLe. If you want it to happen through attrition,then you have to wait until the ne'.\' ~C>:" :' '::'0IH~S in. Berg: 1 thinl: we h;y~' 1:--e 'iC'r:' specific. Instead of saying neighborhood parks, be specific with the park that v:<;: GOel't want this activity going on any more because it would be an absolute sin to quit ::,11)';:1/ sof'ball at Meadow Green, Roes~r: Meadmv C'e;'" ye?~ Tb::tt'~ true. Lash: 'Nell and (lg:>:". ,'?;1~ ~~~ 'Jp more for that. I mean it's got the large parking lot. You know Rice MalsliiCs no pIece to park. Huffm';',:1: Iil all the J~','lh(\~~~ va~j~, Lash: Right. So tbjt.' r~e(in 1:13t'S a nightmare situation and I'm not exactly, Carver Beach. . Manders: Abcut tll(> '.,,'W \\::iy. Lash: OJ.. a:!, the:c':~ ;.;;,1': rC't ~::>Iking ~et up there either. You know and right now it's been kind of a I)top gap rne:l~''f~ t'or a few years ",nd it's filled the bill and it hasn't been too much of a pT'oblelL Manders: Jt's :1ot ~'oi(j -' to get ?ny better. Lash: Right t\1J:3:: thee '-,ev;fi~ljs come on, if we can get it out of those two particular areas where trere's a parkmf, cJ!"oolem and get it onto new fields, fine. But I'm not interested in star.ing ~~e pnbJems -'1 '!~:1:'r r-~?r(~', Hoffman: Ckay, ki~Vt Jt'~n a" Civer the board. Lash: So okay, J tl'hk- i ,~ii" ~;l1r::"!1arize how I feel. Roeser: \V0u'rl. yr:-l r"'",~ 36 . . . . Park and Rec Co:nJ;:~',:,-,'J - Septe:nber 27, 1994 Andrews: And I'd like:o summarize how I feel. Lash: Okay. That we \,,'culd not allow any scheduling of neighborhood parks for organized sports, other than tt.e ,\L~'('. t:1at are being scheduled currently, and I think we named those three. Th,H th~ COfnIT'l):Pty P:1TKS would be scheduled and I don't know, what did you guys think of the idea of ;"'J<'!,2. ':n ::. :Tq1j~St to Jerry ahead of time if you want an ongoing permaner,t time. I-k'd i.~Ve to C0i11e up with a schedule. I think that's reasonable. Andrews: '/es. Beq: krry, do y.)U (o1~'.: :cll'rf. g(~in~ to get more requests than you have parks? Rueger(t~.: l:'!)f F:e. Berg: FC'- p:re-orc\ ;~j~(' "r;e-. Ruegemer: For th,,:; cor "1UL ;TV park? Mander~: Ye:lh. Rueger~':"": ~I; t.h ~a~', :i;:-Y'Vf b~e:1 gcing out there anyway and having practices. I can see that as we go TlllOll} 'L.!. LU\\'llley' f<::' talking about the new district wide program for next year so J WOl1!rl 1T 6--: ' f: :lj:~11er numbers next year so it's hard to gauge how many requests we're going to get... (There was a tape ch:m,,~e at this point in the discussion.) Manders: They kiT.: c;f wi;~ g n, isn't t.f],at easier? Huffma,'.: C'T net; ).' .:. '~'. Hoffmc.!1. And if they !lave to call the schedule in on Monday for the following week or by Tuesday for the followir.~' wee.k, then you can bet that if they make the reservation, they're going to he there, Lash: So jlEt stickN;t~l 'h;: first I;O[:1e, first serve? That's what we've had. RuegeTT'er: T thl-,~ ':,).- 1/3s;;"Jing, just to have, they can do that... Ho:~Jm2"": Just to 1,;)'/1: '"::sfI'!af,ons. 37 Park and Rec Comr.li~~;ian - September 27, 1994 . RuegelT.~r: Tb: :.:'t1':. 1".: Jf tLt~ we~k, like Monday or Tuesday they can call for that Saturday. If you v.' ~n:. t,' elin:i:llte the Sunday use, I'd certainly... Hoffman: Right now v t' . re taking no reservations at Lake Ann. Except Dick Brown, who came in this sp:ing. S ~ what lerry is aslGng, that people would like to reserve for games and practices? Ruegemer: In very di:'e ~traits in the past we've used that as a game for rain out make-up, that typ'~' of .hing. ':.. ;r. <:"! ;;1:.,:" to pern~it that for game use. Primarily it's been used for practic~~. Lash: Okay. S;J th':':1 v'~.:. ! \"Ot:lcl say is in the community parks, that we would allow scheduled gam':':s and':',:('tic~s not, \"e c~rne cp with not the hours we wanted. Andrews: Black om k)~cs. Lash: 01"ay 'vith . )"- '.:: f:"(' ',:':'-:r lJlf)C'kp.d out for Lake Susan and should we just say half of Lcke Arm? Roeser: Two haU;:::(.'r1's Hoffman: Fields ~ ailG "L . Lash: Okay. and Fiel~'~ :\ ::'.1id 4 for Lake Ann. Huffm:m: May 1 ,,~,/~ a cuestioi}? The three parks, three little neighborhood parks. What was your recommendatior. :;~Te! Lash: Tbat that woulcl ':ontinue until the elementary opens. Huffman: What haDpe:-,s if we stop it this year? What's going to be the repercussion? I mean if we look at it c'1d Vi": s<-:y no. RuegclTe: 1'm ~Jc :tl,,1 c b~' Lrr.;i.mg !:ids that can participate in sports. I don't know if you decided. to co pJS.~"I:' a split season. Hoffma:l: Rice MaT'lh pav~: ~1~W mwy nights a week? 38 . . . . Park and Rec Cell': ,~",." .. St::p>:n~ber '27, 1994 Ruegemer: I believe i r -,ias :2 this past year. In the past they've done 4 but they've tried to eliminate some of those with the Coulter fields right down here and then try to shift some people around... Hoffm21"': 6 nights ~"Ii VJlijd(' c': ~:appecr !Jer week. Huffman: And j'ealisti;';;.Ll:y, is there anyplace to put them? Ruege~e: ~n ~ hi\; c,~~':-~!a,d, Huffrr..an: l\e got ,1 1", :1 through my back yard, thank you. Ho~fm2':': '201.]te" r .~ ~ .'lrv :dlf'l~ two. HufffT1::'''': B1.:~ in T(:~'j~) : mfUT if we z~p them, there's no place for them to go? Hoffm;:,':: "V~:1 th,"'.' ,. ~t:":l: 'C)meW;1ere else. . HuffJT12T": 131]t they'll :' ~n:::r. th;:~'c;; the point. They'll crunch. They won't be... Roese'-: Well T)1,2yi '. :~;.,(' ~,1'1:"h i.s a crunch to begin with. Huffrr.::"': Ye.1h y~." ~ 0: k:'l" OfCe' they get up to the field, I mean it's a disaster getting in and out. Once the kids on the field, they have room to run. Hoffman: Currently we re initiating an investigation into a site at Rosemount for priv3te/pub~ic p?;tnt"~i;h f()~ me Of green space to the west of their building. At DataServ, to the east of tl1eir b'.lJ \.Er:g 3ne then eventually at Instant Webb but that one would require some gradi.ng. Tre ~":-ce Df'O;1'f' \."ant more space and the only place to look right now is to private ~Jnd w'lich ','e.. ..lei ..se... Huffm2.r: ..,vote fer t1: referc~dt:.m. Berg: Dav~, I third:; i; ',\~, f0 :~1,.t way, we might be working counter productive to ourselves. We m:g!1t crunch t(', ~r ~ ')o;nt that th,:,y feel like, to use your words, they got hammered and they might no: wan~ t,: ; nv~stjga:e ?!lY flJrther than finding out you took ball away from my kid. Ane i.t might work ;,.., COllT1t~r ~U'l)('ses for what we're trying to do. Lash: And I don't w::'n" to hu!"t kids in this process. 39 Park ane Rec Comilri~J~'i(n .. S~ptelrlber 27, 1994 . Huffma::: No. I dc,,'t ',!,mt Ie slam them but I also somehow want to point out very clearly that we've got a probkrn and ',his is... Andrews: I think the sOlution is that all officials of the various organizations, you know Chanhassen Athletic (.r "onb Unitei or what~v~r, that I think a memo should go out that those fields will no 10;' ger be used once the school properties are there so do not expect that we will :1ave additi()r,~,; ~;dc~ srace. You're going to have substitute field space so they can continue to look for a!t"'rpate 'T'lce because I think the assumption will be that no only will I retain Rice !v1ars', r' '..' I"I ' ~ct 3 -:nare fields to use. Berg: That's a readY good point. Hoffm","': Scmet!'~"lr':I:': :,", thnk about's that, as you look forward to the potential referensllm, the date ",.~ '1a\'e nn! iC.el1tificd...additionalland for ballfield space other than poten~';llly 2.l0ll? P;<;h\,. i' S. 1.1,) to ~he north there. The Fleet Farm property or else altern2tely the HLlh f1~,,=.n~r~,;, r!0wn to the south but as we look forward and begin to push , . people 3raurc) '}, teJ 'i;: ;"'f' t1.f':' em gc, we'd better be in line to provide the space. When you say get out of here, and yeu go somewhere else. Bandimere would be that location for another )-15 fields ~,~:: "I:",':~nd \:-:::It, we're probably coming up short of community ball space. Anrir~\~'~ : 'Nell \?" ~ 1',,";' i! h:'ccme~ more obvious to our citizens. . Lash: Se given th 11 '.-,: ::-:r:':ltic'IJ Jerry, do you want to write up a policy and we can review that on 'j ft:l'.1:'"e me~t''i~. Andrews: Yeah, brm~ it 1)3ck pie3.se. If you would please tell us what Ian said then we can. We're g~,ing to mo'.':' ,'f' .'\dr:lhistrative Presentations. Do you have enough to go on there? Ruegemer: YE,all D>' "nr r~"ke e motion then? Lash: Yeah, 1 g:ll~(:"} , J.:1rl call. Huffman: Second. Lash moved, Huffr-mn sen.Hiefl that th(' Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to bring back a policy regarding scheduling fields for games and practices which would not allow any sched'.llinJ :,~ nei~~bhorhood ~arks for organized sports, other than the ones that are being Sdh'dl.k(. ctirrently, and the community parks would allow scheduled games :1nd practi('fC'S ,2" '-?nt Oi' Sunday from noon to 6:00 at Lake Susan and on Fields 3 and 4 at Lake Am.. ..\ii vot-eJ in favor and the motion carried. 40 . . . . Park and Rec Cor:..r:"'si('[' ~el)trmber 27, 1994 ADMI:'\ISTI< ~T~Pt .' ".ESEr:T l.lIOKS: A. TR.{dl__~=n;~;:~~?_,,~TI~"; rU:PORT. Todd Hoffman upci;',',:d 'he cCJnl'lissiol1Jn t!1is item and asked for any questions. Andrews: Hearing ~,lC'.~ " Je"s ;iDve on to item 8(b). Mane,c",: J "~cPt ~. , - -'i,', rll' :Hi;'~h:l' 4. AndJc' /:: Y \jH > ''', ~. _ ~; ,'~ Manders: JU'It ;;1~:; :::.: . __~ ~!" T Jf:;n I thirJ<: it's great but how does that factor in with the road? Hoffman: Frontag~ ro;!,";? Manders: Yeah. Hoffma;;: it Will p.ll[: ,y V\i:GLY or partially... Manders: That mig:ll L':: a 01..lL:n of years down the road. Andre\":: Y e::;!; tr:eY'~'t.'.alking 2000 now so. The proper term is access boulevard. Mance:':: A:,d tl-,..:., d',..: ,-,tLu .;i~ilg, I dlOught this was a real interesting, informative document, B. RESTO~ATlfyv.r,'1;.pEG.K~~ED WETLAND LOCATED SOUTHWEST OF LAJ{f~_., Uf!.:.\J:'LL'::...~~'~,.:, _~.1:1;~i,'.J./~~l?_~ Todd Hnffr.1an up:!?te(' '!-e Ccml11i:;~jon en this item and asked for any questions. Ma'1c'e-~': ':'.;"1,:: is ::;:;~.;:'~r P~),1d ,ce,~ that w~' went on the site visit? Hoffm:..t:-,: Y,03T' "'.I'" BeT';: V,'bc",:,'j iLo ,(, :'~ tJ~' 41 Park and Rec Com;mssion - September 27, 1994 . Hoffman: The bea\/~l,', 1,":'11t 1-1 ,~1c other end of the lake and went up the creek which, the bridge that goes over tc Lake Susan Park. They dammed that up almost to the level of the bridge. Backed up Lh~ ".:':L1 \vater retention pond and flooded the trail on the... AndreN:,: Th~y dG1"",'~i:'~(, ,'lJsy heavers fer nothing. Roeser: Briri6 the:-L ,~.;,:l to ILc~ Mar~h. Huffm? I3rhg ':h(" ~ ; ':c"." W,;,: could use them. Hoffman: .. m;e l~ Cfi-~.. ;;::~ ~!o~,;':cs ~G hoth J';ln and Fred for helping out at the Septemberfest celebration. An idea Lh8~ Da",:n came up with on this park and rec trivia. It was a real kick and YO'} will 'pe it:u:' .I(1.1:t !';~;-n-re '::fle9rations. You spin and wheel. They get to win a prize if they can name. nswer a trIvia question. Jan and Fred...tell us about your expen~r1C:t's Berg: 1. W:'.! i' 1-....'1 Lash: 1t was. Berg: W~ 1-]10 (\ lCi ~.< ...., I "t "If kin:;;, . Lash: 1\ 'vas -re2l',>'sti:1g 1 tPink a lot of people thought it was kind of educational too. Yot: know whether they knew tte answer or not, they ultimately got the answer. We accepte~ fir,,:., sc':~()r ~. ", c'd an ewer. After much prompting usually they could get it but I think they lear:1ed some thmgs mat they didn't know before and I thought it was really fun. Hoffman: Excellent ?\:C:, l.n conclusion I would like to let the commission know that MichellE:' Br>U:l is ""in::: ,~dc,wn her t;me with us as a Recreation Intern. Michelle has perfoITJed excellent Vv",,'; for we Oty of Chanhassen, at a very reasonable price I might add. Before 1e:w~'r sh~ \II::: ~..:, car,eluding a very exciting project for both the city and the depaltment. That ~clrc ' glns~,.r' fu]! mlor pG'rk, recreation and trail brochure. About a $1O,0f1000 print iol:> \V ' ':1 win ~?ke y;bce in January-February of 1995. It will show the city's rarks and dty ~':i(.b. '-N::'.~re ~he future trails will be and describe our park system. It has some nice pictures \Ve have a local citizen who volunteered through solicitation in the newsletter to t[!ke ':}110:. ,:"'1i:,::,hs. Vie 11?ci a pro:t~s)ional photographer who's doing that for free. Tt..illf,s aye c;o.n~i'- ;': +o~~ther ?~d Mi~helle did a good job with that fmal project... Anc',rew<:: Thank v ~\ . 42 . . . . Park and Rec Conr,,;,;',)'n - S,'ctl'mber 27, 1994 Huffman: Are yc~ g:.,> " .::; s';",y in tht park area now after watching all this? Braun: Y \..iU be~ 1 Cia COMIVHSSIO:,\T 1\1"-:.',/, t'~R PH F:~EJ\'TATIONS: __..._~_________ ___"-H_'. '__'~ ._.~_:.._._._______ Andrews: Are there sri' comrrilssion member presentations this evening? MaedeL: Thr~e L':jf'^ ,';, T"l~'y":e ,~:fferent, more informational questions. First one is on Power Hill sliding ,'r~;u, Is that guing to be open this year? Hoffman: It VI ill bc)/';. The gr2ss looted very nicely. The...is that the people will be runnl'l,: ~ll: :-1+~ fl' ,',' . .,J)C " .,:, 'C; ,g;'ii J 0on't fault anybody... when the cornfield which is at the boturn ,);' :he SllCLg aill comes in for development...for this runoff. So we will he ,~on(lon:1.'? tre'''~::s',;''':; '-:0.:' t'::;.~... Mance'"': Ohy, ~ ,(1 ,::i~,:+;CT :', '1"';e seen some literature on Bandimere. Using that for soccer .Cje,d Sp:Kl' tit> ..<[", 1 \ :~,)' r.a/pening? Ho~frn2"": "Jc Mande --: 'Ll'~rl;~, j: ."I;~U :;~,,':f:r actIvit:, ~htre? Hoffma:l: No. Mander:: 1 dirn"" ;,.. i'e?:, 'A;:~ D.1t, Ho,":D"c"': ...the sOC:,," ()i'ga:;i?:3tlon. Anen''.', ': Ch',~ L \, ;' ;, Hof~m:>,,: Chuck R~in~,.i":i came i:1... They thought there might be some money available to go ahead and grade th;{t 'hin.!.? out and huild soccer fields there in the interim. When you get right ri()'v;:} tc: i '" )('; '.' ~, '; grs i,.' ',i':2S for the interim. It either works or it doesn't. At that time we initiated tll: :-: ",'ussions.., , Manders: And ther. the J ast comment was on Lake Ann pavilion. I don't know if that was in one ('f 1.lie l),l'.'L;f~~: :i' ":.;g~ l';: thRt pEvilion end potential misunderstanding as to who has it reserved and who can :lse it. Is there a possibility of putting a sign or something up there as to who [,[-" it l'C ~,\~T' ;' ; ')" is -chat not necessary from your point of view? 43 Par1r an,l Rec Cor:;; " Ii - S;:,p:er-.~)er :;7, 1994 . Hoffmrn: Th:,"<?'~, ",p ct:h. tro] dc.wn below. Mander:c: Ir. terms C):' " '1'.; has~: for that day. RuegerT'~r: Fer all :...,. ':': <des Hoffman: Yeah. So 2. ~;>e;son can walk from the parking lot into the upper level and saunter right in the rniddleJf ,; I/?scrved picnic. Manders: But I L1il1k :"!eir only comment was, that there was something there that they had reserver th(~msl.:'l"fs (" ,:0'1, :f :'~a'.''' there, that's fine. Rueger- ~r: .Tin;, to :.' ,',":l1?': yLestion tl)O as part of the 1995 budget process, we did budget tor anod1c ~.~gn I, IK'UilC on the wall of the pavilion to try and prevent those cornments 1.;1 the ft: ~~W'. Andrews: I gues~, :0 fe,' ('v\! ;."1 on that. That pavilion there. Are all the construction repairs and loo~;e ends an c:;'ci ,) or; ttlT fi:ir.l1i' On the new park shelter. Hoffman: The new parK shelter. All the, it's all constructed. We've used it for 2 years. The cOT'ty2.ct l,~s .., ";' '."i",'"8C :'1' ' $1 f).onooo on the building and the ball's in their court.. . La~h: T ,va", '~i')nJ~;;'-:!. if there was anything, besides what we talked about Septemberfest. Just to give a quicK ( \,::,:-v;ew of how you think it went. Overall. Ho:fm,n: You'll f' ..;: ':'er...Jj U'lY (;)f'ijmi,;~ioners can make it... What we're doing is inviting everybody in ':~ see, because nUT comments from the Rotary and Lions is that they'd like to ~ee it go back t;) the t'/ening. r he<U"d some comments from some residents that they'd like to go back to ~':f;;;l':,?S. \Ve~r(}urht the eve:lings were pretty slow last year but... The other js:;~'~s, we tlY ~,~ ;,:.ge ::v: ~c things so pecple can come out and try to take everything in at orc':'. M~"bc "ki"~ the ','if(mg approach. Maybe we go from 11:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night :md )Ie; ,'jf1er c!-cose if you want to come out for the morning events or evening events. \Ve'j like to hear from you because we had a steady crowd in my opinion but the": Wi~S ?Jl if.' :\j 'ct to :ake in. HuffmQ'~: There w::' ~ {~ ~() ;l,w:1ther i~si~e that day. HoffrreH; Ye:Lh.:'-:e 'I' l~-r J,"T~. Lafh:\Vell i: W1~r 'r ill,., it W"~l. I. ' 4... . . . . Park aH(l Rtc Comin"::,:):~,n - S epte;l1ber 27, 1994 H rf. '1/" ..... . \., - UI rria.;;: vytl" It i/:".' , i ;jU ,H,U sm:ny. Lash: 1\10, but it W,j.~ ,', .liT;j, 17red and I had on sweatshirts and we were kind of hot actually. It \vas a little on the Lll;ddy sick in some places but I thought the new activities were wondel hI. T just fl.:,-!.., ,t YO', "(>(; son1e gre1t :reas and I think it was what, about I :00 and I turned to Fred and I sad, boy this has really died out Everybody left and we turned around and laded at the cr:J~. ,..-:;,;;s 'iLG t~en; vias like a thousand little kids working there just like crazy and they werer;'t ~"-.vjng :1 word so that was very popular. I mean I thought it was very well at1cr:.dd ~he ri., \ ,,1' ," 2, T\t~ybe we want to try and keep it open during the dinner hour. Yeu know T~l"'-l~:~" to ~et back up there again before 5:00 to get in on some of the fun my~e1f .!T:d it \V~:S':;-~:f i k; c.~ the stuff W?S closing down well before 5:00 I think because th~:'e wa~ r 0 ;r' ;'t:c 1J:, ti'ere, But T gness I was mostly curious about the teen dance and hO"'1 'hal few ,;n +:-."~ -.\ >' ;crt Clf tl-Je hig change, Ruege""-(',:: ..r:rl)r3~~:;~f'~ (J\ :x~)pk. 50 to 60 people were there. Some parents were there. Fnjc'yed the !;ii ~:;r- ,,<; Wf'l1 2". ch::1p~roning. That type of thing but like Dawn said, the kid\: ttn' ",pre :he-' ,J:,' ,. ,.:: "'lcd 'i:!1'~ I thj'1k Dominoes seemed to enjoy, have an OPr!)rtt.;:1ity ~(;O 'IS t ~':~' :-:;r! eY< O~]!' SlJomor p~ogram... From a programming standpoint, sure it wa~.'J" ~hC' p,,,,t ".,:<j ,.:-e'1(>'d -rrognm we've done but I guess we're there to provide differel~t r)Pl"O!"upil:~' f("- hct~ 0+<;:11 age,. So we're certainly going to try to keep prograr;;minf! f;)r !e: 'v : s \Vf~'r;:, ':'ot g::-ing to give up...but looking through the course of the summer wIth tl}l~ te _ J trips :il1Q Ihis type of dance, it's a hard age to program for but... Andre\\s: 1 hovv' cl,m('f.,ll1.ce trat. it r'12Y t2ke yOU a year or two and the word getting out that thPt 'VR" ? 1',1': 1, -, :1" 'f"'1' nn.r. ,,'m'll get more the next year and kind of more the next yerrT, Lash: \V~1J it'lC'Pl-:-'" Ii., nr: tl~:::~th or hly and the past Septemberfests, that kids stay. Adults ~'!ay ('nel k;d.' <:+q "nd i w;)n~e~ if beceuse it was designated as a teen dance, that that's j,::'t 2. ~'_lrI. 0:1 c' >x,1:~~:;rl::. l\':..w I have t~e teen to interview on this and I guilted her the most I could to w:",- ,- ('f to go and she went for 10 minutes and left because nobody was there. ,'\ad I sa!rl ""he'.! WUJ Id ;: t3.k~, and I asked a bunch of her friends. What would it take to pet ":))1 fp w:W' ,1 . -' 1;2;~ 'Nh"t If we had Bingo at night, because they usually like to play B;n20 anG we (c,ir-.f:C (:tnout that. 'You can't do that for money. You can do it for prizes but they're very lilhte.l >, wh'1t they would accept for a prize that would make it worthwhile. Ym. kw'w I m~,\.n !:'e;' -:'il1~t :J r~;)l1~' hard gr~np to try and figure out, and they can't even verh:::Ji7c wt2.t it ,;ve.:.;-.. ;,:e. Hoffman: M3le teen:~i~'"' can"'::>! da~1rI~ unless they're on their bike... 45 Park aL~ Re.:: Ccnr: ': ,~):- Scp!cr.1bcr 27, 199~~ . Hoffm:n: Is L'1.at tLe :;;;.:-le, 3 guys that Vvere cruising around for the July 4th Celebration too? The same 3. Berg: And th~y \vf"'C ,',;t litt1'- k;d~ J rr:ean they were 6th graders. There's not a junior in that higr. ',,:;rccl tha-'~;("'l;l1g re' C'or'e up ;;.nd go to a dance with a 6th grader. That's what's scaring off the kicb J '::4)1~ed to, that" s one of the reasons. Hoffma:'c: I heare, mli:: ': ':0 $ome parents... Lash: But then the b:~> doc't \vant :0 come. I mean that's one of the fears is that it's going to be too overly supervised, Ho~fnj'), ': Yi-1f': ":hCl"2:~: ')~c.t ;, c'.:n':'~pr of havipg a tent which is almost...exclusive to teens. So it'd be like.. lc; ~,"r ',1 ~.;c y,),', c0uId have the whole festival going on just as we have in the past, and set er ;; ':~";2rate ~ent where l,1.e disc jockey and... Other comments from the Rotary \':as r"t.. TJ:;t: 'J,.e cl;,~ beer frClm the snowmobile people that they did no better than any other year bL L~ c;:tuff tlu1t \ve offered did well financially. Lash: \Vell m<1yt,e "<' If.'cd to think about something, try to continue the old way at night and then also trving W i "wirle ~Gmething for teens. I think if teens are going to come, . the:y'r~ r~oir.~ ::' c,>,' . ".p-:'(' (ks;gna:':":i teen or not and maybe we even used to have a better LL,"1':(l'. t wlxT id l't,\ iy;,eq: my k~c~; always went before. Lemme' La~t yen 1/,' j,(' a [.'1 ~al 1xl!1d and we have probably 100 people were there. Lash: ]"ast ye3r? Ruegemer: Y~2h IJ:;t ~"T:- T 'pent ~]5(]O.OO for that great band and you have to weigh, yO'.."ve ':rnl tJ t:.'I,,:,' .:' ;,.. :!;'::: 1:; i, '1.'C'~th it to spend that kind of money and get a bad turnO'.L T1;;:t's '-",n'" ';" 111';Ull]'lt':,~)- J'e' night thing, this isn't going anywhere. The Lion's even commented 1a-;':, tv'v is tnis dead. Why are we doing this? Hoffman: We're a ch,'::-)ng a c:o"nmunity. We do not have, this thing does not have a ingrain\;d r:adition in 'L!ji;: ;,;ity of Chanhassen. We had a couple of people who said man, I didn't expect this...this is really hick. La~h: llcv sh~dr, ~ ,,'.f '~~:-; ia ~~di.1~ tr..:n. Huffman: Is th~ t"t' y.-:,'Ier lime \:'i: ':'lace to talk about the $5.00 fee to the entrance to Lake Ann? 46 . . . . Park 2r.d Re'.: CJ;m~c.j~,~,)l1 ., SqteE-:'Jer 27, 1994 Lash: ~"c. Andrews: Not yet. Lash: '1~h~lt wjll be in .; ,~uaf\'. Andrews: Okay. r ,r ~,.jL one more here. Ruegenl~r: Are V~, ;"':.';c.'.r: tn~ piClic evaluations? '--' .. - .. Huffm,m: ~C' 'T',L;clt' s .i.~;t some little tiny nugget in my brain. Rueger! tT: "We \\'C'.~ 7 '. '..":1. hose too. Every picnic evaluation would come back referenc~_ng the parkir.;~ ~.~~ Andrew::: Thnr \ii LV '::r1:r,,~ '::' '.vhat, Decerr,ber? You've got that one booked in. RuegeIT,e;': Yeab. Lash: January. Anc;rew~.: I [e..;~iVe(i :: .;"ter froll, somebody quite young, and I can't. It says Dear Mr. Anc',rew\. My mOlT v,c,"t jet me ride too far on my bike because there is not enough space, spelld 'pase, en !l' , ;'~.< f~:~ ~\il~::S, ~') I Jm a~:dng if you could make bike trails going to places "l!Cn ,i5 L;,.\.:~ . ,..: .. ,. ;}::,;l:;t:: Clad to Charhassen Elementary School. I live on Lake Riley P :;de'y :mi ,~ljj ~ ,)'.': ',he ot::cr kids in my neighborhood would use the paths too. But anyway. i~'s just b:J~i:.,.:..> a cornmert a:,out again, the TH 101 corridor being a problem for kid", to tr3veJ safely. "I; os hap;.>ens to be to the south but the same issue. Huffm:.:': V':he~'t'" :;;.' 'e;-h.:';;c: b+_I.,~e'.) Hoffm,['1: Tl-te -:-011"'('.' Ber;?: I\nd 'r:;rk \\ '1'( ::' ~c "1:1~ '-:":;:>(I:-'sibJe for getting rid of all those cars. That was nice to s':"e, Andrews: Any other pr.:sentations? APPRQV A!~...Q~~_~E..~{t)~S: 47 Park ar,-: Re:: C0(T..:ll'h';: ~)c.Jter:,tcr::, 199'<, Lash: 1 believe the m:~<I1:,~ Minutes from July 26th were approved already previously. Hoffmc.'l: I'll checlz. Lash: T th~l1k ~t'~ iIi'''' -: 3--d Mir.1Jt~~ th1t V7~ :nproved them. I think so. Hoffman: Yep, ycu're <ght. August 23rd only. August 8th are still outstanding. AncJews: A:1Y CYTeC'Cf, .~ te, 4.:1RP~,t, aclditions, corrections or deletions to August 23rd? Berg movec... M~:!(;r sE'.;onded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeti:q~ S1<:..,ed AllgU~t 23, 1994 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion (':;~rrjeG. Roeser mo~rerl, V::,~b 'if("JndeC to :Jdj,mrTI tLe meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meetin~; i":lS adjourned at 9:25 p.m. Submit:ed by Tcdc: 'f l'~:.n Park 2;:rJ R~:;:'t.'~ ~i:)', l' ";":n ~ Prepar~(J ~y "T. m; : 'i'" .; 48 . . .