The URL can be used to link to this page

1987 12 08 Agenda . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. . , AGENDA PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION TUESDAY, DECEMBER 8, 1987, 7:30 P.M. CHANHASSEN CITY HALL, 690 COULTER DRIVE Call to order. Approval of Minutes dated November 24, 1987. Review Request to Purchase Zamboni, Brad Johnson. Request to purchase bleachers for Meadow Green and Chanhassen Estates, Gary Meister Review Vending Possibilities for Warming House at City Center Park. Updates: - Community Center Task Force Recommendation. - City Council Action on Referendum. - City Council Action on Herman Field. - City Council action on Trail Reconsideration, T Bar K Estates. CITY OF CHANHASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 December 1, 1987 Mr. Brad Johnson 7425 Frontier Trail Chanhassen, MN 55317 Dear Brad: . As 'we discussed' on the phone, the Park and Recreation Ccmnission has tabled the request to purchase a zamboni for lack of information. The following \'lere the concerns expressed regarding the purchase of the zamboni: 1. The Conmission wanted assUrance that a zamboni representative had inspected the machine. They want operation manuals to be available and operation instruction given to the park maintenance personnel. They would prefer sOll'ething in writing that would guarantee the condition of the machine. 2. They would like to see the Hockey Association make a financial corcmi. trrent to either the purchase of the zamboni or correcting the condensation problems on the ~vest end of the rink. It was suggested that $2,500 be coomitted. 3. Strict operational schedules and guidelines would have to be adopted and adhered to. Also, they want it clearly understood that only authorized, trained personnel would be allowed to operate the zamboni. 4. They would reject the security interest offered by Bloomberg. This type of an agreement would make ownership unclear. The Commission would insist that the City be the sole owner of the machine. However, it would be acceptable for the Bloomberg Companies to loan the money to the Hockey Association who would then make a donation to the City. The Ccmnission has agreed to make a ccmni tment to purchase the zamboni based on these conditions. This i tern will appear on the December 8th agenda. I am asking that you attend this meeting so as to provide the information requested. If you are unable to attend, please let me know. Sincerely, . dD~ Lori Sietsema Park and Recreation Coordinator LS:k CITY OF CRAHRASSEH 1-+ . 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.o. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM TO: Park and Recreation Commission FROM: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation commiSSiO)t ~ DATE: December 4, 1987 SUBJ: Request to Purchase Bleachers Attached please find a letter from the Chanhassen Athletic Asso- ciation Girls Softball Coordinator, Gary Meister, requesting the purchase of bleachers for Meadow Green and Chanhassen Estates Parks. Scheduled games and practices for youth are played at the ballfields at these parks and bleachers are needed for the spec- . tators. Mr. Meister feels that perhaps the bleachers would encourage parent attendance and participation. Bleachers, such as the ones located at City Center Park, cost approximately $1,200.00 each. Although this expense is not included in the 1988 CIP budget, there may be funds available for one set of bleachers. Also there is a set that can be taken out of the indoor ice arena during the summer months. It is the recommendation of this office to purchase one set of bleachers at a cost of $1,200.00 in 1988, use the bleachers located in the indoor ice arena during the summer, and budget for the third set in 1989. . . . . CHANHASSEN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION P.O. BOX 113 CHANHASSEN, MN 55317 To: Chanhassen Park and Recreation Department From: Gary Meister, Girls Softball Coordinator Date: December 1, 1987 Subject: Bleacher Request for Softball Fields I would like to see a bleacher at each of the following fields: * Meadow Green Park Field # 1 * Meadow Green Park Field # 2 * Chanhassen Estates The Meadow Green Park fields are used for girls softball, adult softball and sometimes soccer. The Chanhassen Estates field is used for T-ball, ragball, softball and baseball. Many times last summer at the Meadow Green Park fields we had 20 - 40 people attending a girls softball game. A bleacher at each field would encourage more people to corne and enjoy the games. Bleachers like the ones at the City Hall fields would be great. Thanks for your consideration. 4 11l~ r J.... -..-' CITY 0 F CBAHBASSEH . 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM TO: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation Coordinator FROM: Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor ~ DATE: December 1, 1987 SUBJ: Vending for the City Center Park Warming House With the arrival of the winter season, preparations for skating programs are well under way. One issue under discussion is the possibility of installing vending machines in the City Center Park warming house. Several parents have voiced their favor for pro- viding this type of convenience for people using the rinks. A variety of machines and services are available, including pop, . juice, and snacks with either limited or full service contracts available. All machines are installed free of charge with either a commission, if using full service or a flat case rate if using limited service being collected. When using limited service, we would purchase the product from the supplier at a price of $6.30 to $7.95 a case. We then need to store the product, stock the machine, and collect the money. If the full service option is used, the supplier would provide the product, stock the machine, collect the money and pay us a commission of $2.55 per case for pop or 10% for fruit juice and candy. I do not consider this a large revenue generater, but rather a service to the people using the facility. It is my recommen- dation that we contract for a full service pop or juice machine and a snack vending machine to be installed in the warming house at City Center Park. . C ITV 0 F CHAHHASSEH \c 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM TO: Park and Recreation Commission FROM: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation Coordinator DATE: December 4, 1987 SUBJ: Updates The City Council will be reviewing a number of park related issues on Monday evening. Staff will be prepared to update you on the action taken at our Tuesday meeting. . Attached for your information, please find the final report that will be presented to Council by the Community Center Task Force on Monday. Also attached is the request to include trail and park development on the referendum. Again, I will apprise you of Council action at our meeting Tuesday. . CITY 0 F CHAHHASSEH . 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM TO: Mayor and City Council FROM: Community Center Task Force DATE: December 1, 1987 SUBJ: Community Center Task Force Final Report and Recommendation The Community Center Task Force was appointed by the City Council to study the need for and location of a community center in Chanhassen. By being a representative coalition of the Planning, Park and Recreation, Council, Housing and Redevelopment, and com- munity recreational groups, we were able to reach concensus much quicker than if our composure had been different. Through edu- cating ourselves, through our own members and the multitude of experts providing input to us, we believe that the conclusions reached by our group are sound and well considered. The Council/ citizenry will find many additional conclusions and supportive documentation in the later part of this report. However, the following represent the most salient and compelling reasons as to why we are recommending that a community center be built in our downtown area of a size and with a program configuration as described in this report, i.e: . - Unprecedented Opportunity: The existing building/land being offered to the City by the Housing and Redevelopment Authority represents a significant financial savings to our citizens which should not be missed. The proposal includes payment of demolition costs and construction of corridors forming a public/private partnership of unpre- cedented magnitude. If the community center were to be built at another time/location, the construction costs would approximate $4.0 million. If a referendum can be successfully passed prior to spring, 1988, this same faci- lity can be built for approximately $2.5 million. The significant cost savings coupled with the City's "financial analysis report", reflecting that the proposed debt can be repaid without a tax increase, re-inforces the committee's position that this opportunity represents a unique opportunity for our City and our citizens: and - Sense of Community: By reviewing proposed redevelopment/ . recreational plans for our community, it is apparent that Mayor and City Council December 1, 1987 4It Page 2 the community center can truly provide a new a\~areness for the citizens in our City. A downtown community center can generate a recognition of our City and can be the nucleous for our redevelopment plans; and - Increased Tax Base: The Committee firmly believes that the community center will work hand-in-hand with redevelop- ment plans and be a driving force in creating 30,000 to 50,000 square feet of additional local retail ($250,000/ year in new taxes). The community center is estimated to generate approximately 200,000 trips per year which, again, will provide the impetus to stimulate development within the downtown area; and - Shortaqe of Facility Space: Our physical fitness programs surpassed available space several years ago. The com- munity center will meet existing and future needs of the City. The facility has been designed so as to appeal to all segments of our community, i.e. seniors, community groups, physical fitness, swimming, tennis, figure skating, gym, and hockey users, as well as to accommodate major events, i.e. flea markets, etc; 4It - Self-Sufficiency: If properly designed, a community center can be self-sustaining (does not include repayment of the principal debt). The inclusion of ice is critical in the self-sufficiency analysis. Ice center costs were found to be revenue generators given their ability to sell off-peak time to non-local groups. Current heat reclama- tion systems re-inforce the importance of ice.. The heat reclaimed in making ice was often found to be sufficient to heat the entire community center - a cost factor of $50,000 if the ice arena were to be eliminated. The ice arena should be ready for use through referendum dollars; however, lockers, bleachers, etc., should be planned as future operational expenses potentially being paid by excess revenues or association payments. In light of the above points and based upon the additional infor- mation embodied in the remainder of this report, the following motion was unanimously endorsed by the Community Center Task Force: 4It liThe Community Center Task Force hereby recommends that the City Council authorize a referendum to pose the question of constructing a community center in Chanhassen. The question should be based upon the construction of a 78,410 square foot facility to house programs as recommended in this report (page 4) at a net cost of $2,564,000. Kasper moved, Mady seconded. The motion carried unanimously." Mayor and City Council December 1, 1987 Page 3 . Thank you for your consideration. In behalf of the Task Force, Jim Mady Chairman Community Center Task Force Members Jim Bohn Bill Boyt Dave Headla Joe Kasper Bill Kirkvold Jim Mady Bob Robinett Vicky Sawochka Scott Simonson Pat Swenson . . . . . Community Center Task Force Report December 1, 1987 Page 4 Proposed proqram Levels Community Center & Support Areas: Two Gymnasiums Four Racquetball Courts Swimming Pool Support (lockers, toilets, showers, desks, weights & exercise, etc.) Entrance & Circulation: Entrance Circulation Meeting Rooms and Offices: Community Rooms Senior Rooms Control Office Community Center Total Ice Arena 120' x 240' Grand Total 12,280 SF 3,700 SF 8,980 SF 4,280 SF 1,600 SF 11,300 SF 3,775 SF 800 SF 520 SF 375 SF 47,610 SF 28,800 SF 78,410 SF The architect has set a total construction budget as follows: Community Center Facilities Ice Arena Circulation & Demolition (HRA) $2,331,000 900,000 $3,231,000 667,000 $2,564,000 .. I I . l f- w ~ ~ '"- '" ,. ., r t- . ILl ~ II. ............. J l."' \& I ~ I \v, &.1 ..,... ttJ......... ......,.... , ) -) ! I ~ l ~~ 7 ... r- oot J z: ~ c/ ~ ::J ..J Z .J < I- ~ ~ ~ ---- ------" ~. ""'MJ.nc:'oJ.~k':"'"", Q - ~ ---~~ ...--..... '- I . . . . Co~nunity Center Task Force Report December 1, 1987 Page 6 Background The Community Center Task Force was formed in March of 1987 when the Mayor and City Council appointed a ten member committee (see Appendix A). Members appointed were Bob Robinett and Scott Simonson, representing the local hockey association; Joe Kasper, representing figure skaters; Vicki Sawochka, with swimming interests; Bill Kirkvold, representing the Chanhassen Athletic Association; Dave Headla, from the Planning Commission; Jim Mady, from the Park and Recreation Commission; Bill Boyt, from the City Council; Jim Bohn, from the Housing and Redevelopment Authority; and Pat Swenson who served on the previous Community Recreation Facility Committee. . The Task Force spent significant time reviewing the actions of the HRA, previous study committee, as well as the persons inter- viewed by that former committee, i.e. Lowell McMillan regarding gymnasium usage at Chanhassen Elementary, and the two Community School Directors regarding community school programs which could be operated in Chanhassen if space were available. [Salient documents from those discussions are shown in Appendix B.l In addition, the committee spent significant time touring various community facilities within and surrounding the metropolitan area. Based upon this previous information, input received during tour sessions, and recognizing the survey completed by the Park and Recreation Commission (Appendix C), the Task Force reached concensus that the following programs ~hould be con- sidered in designing a community center for the City of Chanhassen: Lounge Multi-Purpose Meeting Rooms Gymnasiums General Exercise/Fitness Area Running Track Pool Instruction Pool Lobby Men's Locker Room Women's Locker Room 4 Racket Ball Courts Ice Center . To determine how the different programs interacted in regards to operation costs, the Task Force invited Tom Eastman, facility manager for Eden prairie Community Center, to a meeting to go over his operation budget (see Appendix D). Mr. Eastman explained that the Eden prairie Community Center includes an ice arena, swimming pool, meeting rooms, fitness rooms, racquetball, and a concession stand. Community Center Task Force Report December 1, 1987 Page 7 . The community center pays $100,000 annually for gas and electri- city. A breakdown to determine which of the facilities uses the most of each is not available, and therefore it is unclear which programs are the most costly to run. Mr. Eastman said that the heat reclaim system worked 75% of the time i.e. heat generated by making ice is stored in coils underground, which partially heat the pool, water and air in the ice arena/community center. Although the pool programs are personnel intensive, the programs offered are so successful that they more than pay the salaries of those employees. Most of the fees for pool use is from the programs offered. Ice fees are obtained through hourly rental rates, not only to hockey players, but to figure skaters as well. The ice arena is rented to Eden Prairie groups first. A predetermined amount of hours are set for open skate times. Any time left over is rented to groups outside the city. Mr. Eastman indicated that in most cases the center generates enough revenue to pay the operating expenses. However, there have been some changes and some problems that have made this impossible in the last two years. For instance, in 1985 the . Recreation Department was moved to the center and though it increased costs for the center, it saves money and complications for the city in the long run. It also allows the center to be used more frequently at off-peak times. The biggest money maker for the center are the racquetball courts and they are the easiest to maintain. Gymnasiums may be as popu- lar as the pool and can generate at least as much in revenue. Mr. Eastman indicated that they could fill three more racquetball courts during prime time hours in spite of Flagship. Wallyball, a form of volleyball played in a racquetball court, is very popu- lar and growing, too. Mr. Eastman said that a big, attractive pool is a positve selling point for the facility. He said that over $100,000 is generated per year from the pool alone. He recommended that limited seating be included, allowing more room for a larger pool. So that a high school swim team and competitive swimmers could be accomodated, it was suggested that the an L-shaped pool be 25 meters in one direction and 25 yards in the other. Locker rooms are often overlooked and minimized. Mr. Eastman stressed that support facilities were very important if you want to attract all age groups. The more the locker rooms are cut back, the sooner you will lose the adult user. He suggested youth and adult locker rooms to separate the two groups. He also . indicated that saunas and whirlpools will attract the adult user as well. Community Center Task Force Report December 1, 1987 . Page 8 Brad Johnson prepared a report comparing the Minnetonka Ice Arena and the Eden prairie Community Center. He found that a facility that has a variety of programs throughout the year is financially the most stable. For instance, a center with an ice arena and a pool can be run more cost effectively than a center with just an ice arena or just a pool. The reasons for this is the heat reclaim efficiency and the fact that one program is often at it's peak and able to carry another that is not. Conclusion/Recommendation to City Council The Committee members discussed conclusions/recommendations which the Committee appeared to have reached concensus upon during the past 8 months. The points which were unanimously agreed to included: - The unprecedented opportunity currently available to the community by the construction of a community center at this time; and - The ability of a community center to create a "sense of community" and "nucleus" for a true downtown; and . - The significant effect a community center would have upon increasing the City's tax base; and - The shortage of existing community facility space; and - The need can operate within the revenues it generates. [Note: The Committee believed that the above points were of such significance that, for final report purposes, they should be incorporated into the first page of their recommendation to the City Council. The descriptions of these points have been deleted from this section and incorporated into the first page of this final report.] Additional points for which concensus was achieved included: . - The design must be sensitive to Bloomberg Companies' plans to expand on their own property. To the extent that they are not foreclosed from the possibility of expansion on their own property, Bloomberg Companies will support almost any design; and - The design must be sensitive to redevelopment efforts of the downtown. Specifically, the BRA's primary objective was to endorse specialty retail on the south side of West 78th Street. Such was shown to be achievable through the successful conclusion of two major attractions on the west and east end of the pro- ject area. The Dinner Theatre is the east end attraction. Mayor and City Council December 1, 1987 Page 9 . The hotel is proposed as the westerly focal point with the corridor lying between the hotel and the Dinner Theatre providing the opportunity for specialty retail. The com- munity center design should be sensitive to that fact. To the extent that the community center would lie as a third major element in between east and west components, linkage is critical and the aesthetic appeal of that linkage is of importance: and - Multiple grades currently exist in the area proposed for the community center. The corridor system and facility should be sensitive to these grade changes and carefully examined as a part of design. A poten- tial goal should be the consideration of using the grade changes as a means to separate community versus retail uses: and - Parking demands of the community center, bowling center, hotel, specialty retail and Dinner Theatre, will have different load characteristics at different times. The importance of a corridor system is criti- cal if parking demands are to be met for all com- ponents at all times. In essence, the design must consider relatively easy access from the west, east, north, and south: and . - The importance of a central courtyard for the corridor system is critical. This area should represent the control center and accommodate the large masses entering and exiting the various facilities. As this will be the central court yard for the community center as well as overall linkage system, a special architectural statement should be made in this area: and - The attention paid to locker and changing areas typi- cally downgrades an overall design. The locker areas should not fall into this trap and should: o Provide for separate adult/child changing areas: and o Incorporate plans for expandability: and o Include means of monitoring activities: and o Be pleasant, inviting, and attractive: and o Be centrally located to provide easy access by racquetball, fitness, gym, and swimming pool users. - The highest architectural standards should be used to reduce longterm maintenance and insure quality . . . . Mayor and City Council December 1, 1987 Page 10 construction. However, budgets must also be maintained. Currently, the City could not legally sell a bond issue which exceeds three (3) million dollars. Politically, a bond sale of a lesser amount may have greater success; and - Safety, control, and cheeriness of all components of the community center is critical. Specifically, the Housing and Redevelopment Authority had initially established goals of accomplishing a corridor system which would link the bowling center to a potential hotel, retail, and community center. Although this goal was admirable, all too often corridors are established in lower, underground, unattrac- tive areas which are difficult to supervise or police. Downtown Philadelphia used an interesting design technique in that the corridor system serving retail users is separated from the City's transit system using continuous glass panels. The fear of getting on or off the subway system is virtually eliminated as the commuter can readily see the shops and activity of the corridor system. Given the number of corridors proposed, special consideration needs to be given to these areas including the ability to block off or lock functional areas which may not directly be adjacent to the control center, i.e. community rooms, senior citizen room, etc. Recommended Community Center Programs/Sizes The Community Center Task Force concluded that the City should move ahead with a referendum for a community center with an ice arena. They have agreed that the plan prepared by Bob Davis is the best plan for the City and it includes: Community Center & Support Areas: Two Gymnasiums Four Racquetball Courts Swimming Pool Support (lockers, toilets, showers, desks, weights & exercise, etc.) 12,280 SF 3,700 SF 8,980 SF 4,280 SF Entrance & Circulation: Entrance Circulation 1,600 SF 11,300 SF Meeting Rooms and Offices: Community Rooms Senior Rooms Control Office 3,775 SF 800 SF 520 SF 375 SF Community Center Total 47,610 SF Mayor and City Council December 1, 1987 Page 11 . Ice Arena 120' x 240' 28,800 SF Grand Total 78,410 SF The architect has set a total construction budget as follows: Community Center Facilities Ice Arena $2,331,000 900,000 $3,231,000 667,000 Circulation & Demolition (HRA) $2,564,000 As shown, corridor system, demolition and remaining site acquisi- tions are proposed as costs to be paid by the Housing and Redevelop- ment Authority. These c~ncepts are consisent with previous HRA activities. Although the HRA has been generally advised of the Community Center Task Force actions, no vote on the concept . presented in this report has occurred. Achieving HRA agreement is critical to cost structures proposed. As shown in the above outlined budget, the total referendum would be $2,564,000 with $900,000 for the ice arena and $1,664,OUO for the community center. As outlined in the sections labeled "Self-Sufficiency", "Sense of Community", and "Shortage of Space", both the ice arena and community center should be considered as one question in the proposed referendum. A cost comparison was done for the downtown site and a free standing building. If the community center of the same size were built at Lake Ann or on the Charlie James property (W. 78th and Kerber Bvld.), the total cost has been estimated by the architect to be $3,993,550. The significant cost difference occurs as a result of currently having under City (HRA) ownership, a major portion of the land needed for the facility, having two struc- tures easily convertible for the uses shown in the plan, and the non-necessity to pay extensive utility, road, and parking improvements. In light of the aOove facts, the committee recommends that the construction of the community center/ice arena should occur in the downtown area. . 7b CITY OF CHANHASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 ./ MEMORANDUM ....' " p- TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager !-, FROM: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation Coordinator DATE: December 1, 1987 t L~ ~...., l~ 12 :)-67 SUBJ: Trail Plan and Lake Ann Park Development The Park and Recreation Commission has prepared a Comprehensive Trail Plan for the City of Chanhassen, which was presented to and reviewed by the City Council at the joint City Council/Park and Recreation Commission meeting on October 7. At that meeting, details were discussed and it was suggested that the development of the trail plan be considered as a referendum issue. . Also discussed at the joint meeting were park related issues that the Commission felt held a high priority. Discussion indicated that the expansion area at Lake Ann Park should be developed due to the need for additional athletic facilities. It was proposed that the park development project be included with the trail development project on the referendum. The total cost of the first phase of the trail plan is estimated to be $868,000. The cost estimate for park development at Lake Ann Park totals $236,000, much lower than originally anticipated. RECOMMENDATION Staff would recommend that the Council authorize inclusion of phase I of the Trail Plan development and Lake Ann Park develop- ment as a referendum issue in early 1988. In so doing, the Coun- cil should select the upper limit of the referendum, i.e. total trail construction of $868,0001 plus total park development of $236,000 equalling $1,104,0002. . 1 The Council and Park and Recreation Commission discussed setting a first phase at a lesser amount, i.e. $600,000. 2 The Park and Recreation Commission continues to have a priority of purchasing land to the southern Chanhassen area. An amount of $100,000 was discussed. CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL AND PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION JOINT MEETING OCTOBER 7, 1987 . COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Councilman Geving, Councilman Johnson, . Counc i lman Boyt,,-..a.Q~t.J;~.ijJlc ~ 1 P'laJL.f1Q,l:O.__~__ :>:.J:r- . .-"-:- ~- COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Sue Boyt, Carol Watson, Larry Schroers, Jim Mady and Curt Robinson COMMISSION MEMBERS ABSENT: Mike Lynch and Ed Hasek STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator and Don Ashworth, City Manager Councilman Geving called the meeting to order. COMPREHENSIVE TRAIL PLAN. Councilman Geving: Just to start out, let's start with Mark and we'll take it from there. Hopefully our ideas tonight is to, we're going to hopefully go beyond what is in the capital budget. We'll talk about some philosophies as well right? Isn't that really what we're after? I hope that's why we're here. ~ Lori Sietsema: I wanted to just point out that Dick Potts is here. He's with the Snowmobile Club and he wanted to give a brief presentation before.we started. Councilman Geving: I think we're already set so go ahead Mark. Mark Koegler: I'll be fairly brief and. informal in keeping with the mood of the meeting. You all got a copy of the trail plan which I think everybody is familiar with that essentially we're updating the Comprehensive Plan. As a part of that we're updating the recreation chapter of the Comp Plan and then in the last tier of the hierarchy, the trail element is a part of that. The trail plan was addressed in the 1980 Comprehensive Plan. The emphasize that was placed on it within that document was minor I guess at best. There was just kind of a cursory review of the trail situation. That emphasize has changed for a number of reasons. I think this is the primary one. The Park Commission commissioned a survey in the middle of this year which showed that 5 out of the 10 top categories of recreational demand or at least interest by Chanhassen.residents was trail related with numbers 1 and 2 being paved bike paths and walking paths. As we point out in the trail plan, I think that coupled with the exposure that anybody that lives in Chanhassen has to trails. Whether it's the trails within this city or the the ones they see when they pass through Eden prairie or Chaska, going to school or whatever it is, certainly helped heighten that awareness and perhaps that's indictitive of some of the results of the survey. The Plan . that's been put together, philosophically is one which advocates -- f.lT"~'" ...-..-. . ---.,. '. -.# "'.~- -~ ""'-~-..,.........-. .,_..."'lli.....-.....-r-.........._.. ".~~~.~~4~~......... . ",-, ..--- .. City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 2 . . connecting major points of interest throughout the City of Chanhassen. Whether that be schools, parks, neighborhoods, commercial areas, employment centers and certainly the trail connections to the adjacent munic ipal i ties.,,_.E...r...t.Q<;,ip.a1.1Y .~ha~b'6i!1l.q_E,den Pra ir ie who have very acti ve systems. The plan itself essentially calls for two types of trails. The first is categorized as a walkway-bikeway which the way it's called out in the trail plan, I don't want to say all by any means but a good. portion of that is projected to be, or at least is recommended to be a 8 foot wide bituminous path as you would see in some of the adjacent municipalities. The width really being set by some minimum standards that 8 feet, 4 feet per lane if you will, is pretty much a minimum reasonable safety distance. It also is a good width because it accomodates a small truck or something with a plow for maintenance purposes so that is the section and the typical type of trail that we're looking at for the hikeway/bikeway facility. I should add to that, that in the residential areas the Commission has discussed that, and I think actions recently have reinforced that, that we're not locked into that by any means. 5 feet or 6 feet might be appropriate depending upon the right-of-way that's there. Depending upon the setback situation of adjacent residential units and so forth. So the 8 foot is more of a guide that's, I guess you might refer to more of an open country situation. Along some of the county roads. Along some of the city streets in some cases. The second type of trail that's called out in the plan itself is a pedestrian trail and the pedestrial trail will be a trail of either woodchip or perhaps a compacted rock type of material and it's the trails that are in the scenic areas such as Chanhassen Pond, some of the areas down in the southern part of the community and then with some future expansions in some other areas. The board that's behind Clark and Jay, if you'd be kind enough to set that up on the easle, the 1 i nes tha t are on tha t map are the same ones tha tare in the copy of the report that you got. There is a distinction there that may be hard to read from the far end of the table. The solid red lines on there are the trail sections the Commission has identified as their recommended Phase I priority. The red that shows up with a little less intensity, which is actually kind of a hatched pattern red is what's been labeled as the second and thi rd phases of the tra i 1 pr ogram with then the bl ack dot pattern representing those trails which are identified only for pedestrian uses. I should indicate this is a composite map. It does include both existing and proposed trail segments. I think everybody is aware of where the existing segments are. The first phase is identifed as being over the first five year period with Phases 2.and 3 roughly being probably 10 years out and 15 years out respectively. So the alignment that is on there, again consistent with the philosophy that I referenced-before, is the same one that's in the documents before you. I'd like to indicate and emphasize that the lines that are drawn on that map are really more or less planning oriented lines. They're not meant to be actual alignments. Any actual alignments certainly would be subject to more of a detailed feasibility review just as you would any other transportation improvement. Whether it be a street or sidewalk or whatever it might be. So those are expressing desired movements of the trails throughout the community itself. The plan then goes on to address . '_. _._ .._.____.....,;,__..:..:---i...,,,."'..o..-~.- ......-., .........." City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 3 several other factors that certainly are of importance. In terms of capital cost, there is a reference that generally the cost that we have used for referencing in coming up with some ballpark figures and correspol'!d~ng _ to tqe. var i~us...J>bA~~~.-.,t,~,nge from $28,000.00 to $47,000.00 per mile. There'sa'niramountof variance in that number and that variance really takes into account whether or not easements have to be acquired. Whether there's a great deal of grading and slope work that needs to be done. Soil corrections that need to be done and so forth. I think regardless of which of those numbers you use, the high end or the low end, probably everybody would agree that it's a sizeable investment and we're certainly looking at some numbers here that are very significant ih terms of overall budgets and so forth that the City gets involved in. The phasing that I referenced before, the firSt phase of the plan which again is the heavy red lines on that map, represents a total cost of about 1.35 million dollars. We have looked at that in some detail in terms of which segments might be fundable through various sources and have provided within the plan at least an intitial breakdown which indicates that due to the geographic location of some of those alignments, approximately $240,000.00 of that cost is potentially retireable through tax increment revenues. $200,000.00 of it is anticipated to be the collection that the City will have in trail dedication fees over the next 5 year period. We've labeled about $33,000.00 to be funded from Chapter 429 assessments and some existing funds. As you can see, that leaves a balance of about $868,000.00 WhiCh. needs to be funded through other methods. Other methods is a nice general term. Put with that what you may. A referendum is certainly a potential. Either that or just absorbing that over time with some of the numbers that are referenced there. So of the 1.3 million, approximately $850,000.00 of that is still outstanding in terms of how that would be funded and would need some further action. The Commission was attentive in it's review of the plan and unfortunately this page was in the first packet the Council got and not this one I noticed. The copying machine was kind enough to drop this one off. There was an analysis of maintenance costs that was performed. It was a very cursory review perhaps in some regards but the Commission recognized early on that looking at the capital costs was simply a one sided way to approach the whole situation. As you can see from some of the items that are noted on there, generally the recommendation is for sealcoating about once every 5 years for any individual trail segment. That's consistent with the programs that I think most of the cities and established trail net wor ks are now doi ng. Eden Pra i r i e I know is. Plymouth is and some of the other communities. That would result in an annual cost for the first phase only once the whole thing was up and running of approximately $30,000.00 .in simply maintenance costs due to sealcoating. Typically most of the communities during the summer months will take on additional personnel to do nothing more than patrol the trails. I mean patrol more in a maintenance sense. Do light sweeping. Clean up glass. Get sand off of it. These kind of things and note any problems that are occuring. We've labeled that as approximately a $3,000.00 expenditure based on the 1987 wage rate and that in essence is a college intern type of person WhO. would do that kind of activity. That person obviously can't walk around . - - - ~~....9 *" -- "rOT r ................"-,...~_~ ... __. ..... --" ~....,:-~~~.,.........).".'~ -.:!~""-~~;-~..,.r-... "......:..,. >-..,,:IIt"""f_ . . . City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 4 a 30 mile trail segment so there are costs in there for a vehicle of about $4,500.00 which is a pushman type thing with a little area on the back for a shovel and some minimum maintenance equipment itself. So increase !!Iaint~~~nce iust ,as a~~~!.L9l._>J:rhe first phase of the program which is about 30 miles of a total trail, it could run in the neighborhood of $33,000.00 to $34,000.00 per year in added maintenance costs in 1987 dollars. That's certainly another factor that has to be thrown into the whole process. In essence I guess that's a quick run through of some of the components in the plan. I think the pr imary reason other than the demand that we exhibited at the beginning of this evenings presentation, we're doing the trail system plan is simply to get it into effect. Whether or not it's fundable right now in total or in part, those parts are falling into place as development takes place throughout the City. It is certainly advisable and helpful for staff, the Council, the Planning Commission and Park Commission to have a plan in place so when a developer comes in they know what's reasonably expected of them for segments of the trail network. So for whatever reason, funds are not available immediately to implement this, at least there is a valued effort in doing that. With that let me conclude and I'm prepared to answer any questions. Councilman Geving: One thing that I would like to see in addition to our trail plan that's those trails reach out into each of our park areas so we can overlay and see how the trails do connect or if they're missing segments. I think for the very first time we have something now on paper and some of the plans that I've looked at in other communities, Eagan and some of the others, they started just like this. They had to have a. plan before they could go forward because every developer came in and asked the same question. Where are the trails? What do we have to do? Of course, what we're interested in as we go along through these developments is making sure that we get the acquisition of the right-of- way. We don't want to have to go back years from now and buy the right- of-way because that's when they g~t expensive. Get them when we're developing and we've been trying to do that. The Council has really been working on this, through your efforts of course. When we see a development, we're looking for trails and how it can connect with an overall system so this will be really good. How about questions? Councilman Horn: I guess the question I have is probably what Dick is going to bring up later. The comments about snowmobile trails. I think you called them a supplemental type of trail. Mark Koegler: There is reference Clark to the specialty use corridor. Councilman Horn: I think you said you didn't addressed those because they were economically unfeasible. I guess I disagree with that and I disagree with the other statement too about. that at some point in time when we become more urbanized that snowmobiling will be limited only to trail arranged parks. I think that will only happen if we don't plan for it. I think when you talk in terms of acquisition expense and maintenance expense, snowmobile trails are the cheapest thing to keep up '....-.....~_..~........... . _.... ...~.............. _...t...~............~.OIta~.:...r'~,- ~~ City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 5 if you plan for them and-p~;vide the corridors up front. I would like to~ see that as a part of this plan because I think it can happen. There's no reason that it shouldn't. Councilman B9Yt.:, easement? Councilman Horn: Councilman Boyt: Councilman Horn: Councilman Boyt: Wop}rl it be.L.p~uw to_xun a snowmobile trail in an I .: -~- . . - '. ,- - Yes. If we gave you an easement, then you're set? Yes. Snowmobiling seems like an easy enough thing to do. Councilman Horn: I think it's very simply. And it's no cost at all to the City. As a matter of fact, Dick will tell us later that we may get some benefit from doing that. Councilman Geving: How about the width of the proposed bikepaths. Don't you think 8 feet is... Councilman Horn: When you look at the diagram, you don't want people locking handlebars and things when they meet. Councilman Geving: I guess I have a hard time distinguishing between a ~ bikepath and pedestrian trail. I look at some of the other trails that I'm familiar with in Eden Prairie. Do they have an actual bike path br are they all the same width? Are you familiar with that Lori? Lori Sietsema: I'm not familiar extensively with their trails but I think what this plan, one of the things that we have talked about is that along the major roads it would be 8 feet wide. In front of homes it would be your 5 foot or 6 foot width. Carol Watson: Streets like Frontier Trail obviously we're not going to have that but for maintenance purposes and stuff, the easier it is to maintain because nobody's going to like our trail systems if they aren't properly maintained. If we can't keep them clean. Especially if they run through neighborhoods. Councilman Geving: I like this idea of running one of these little Cushman vehicles that you can drive around. Carol Watson: Have a person who's main thrust probably in the summertime is nothing but making sure that the trails are in good repair so they're not a hazard. So people aren't getting hurt on them and constantly calling the City and saying guess what happened on your trail today. Councilman Horn: That's the other question I had and that is, I've talked to bicyclist in Eden prairie and you continually seeing them ~ '" --- ~ -. - . ~ :MMii.........~. ........ .,. ~..' - .. . - - &.-'. ,.--.-'-- '.---~"",,"~ -"-..- . '~-"'-~~~'-..4'--",,=,' ":':0: ~. City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 6 . riding on TH 4 right nexC'TC)-abicycle path and I say why don't you use the path. They say it's too rough. The bicycle paths are too rough so they ride on the highway anyway. We don't want to have something like that. Larry Sch-ioers: ~~omre of youprobably don'tknow me but my name is Larry Schroers and I work for Hennepin Parks and I have some experience with trails. One of the reasons you would want an 8 foot width on the trail is for additional maintenance work like clearing tree branches and that sort of thing that have to be done on pretty much a regular basis. Every couple years you have to go through the trails and in the wooded areas brush them back and a Cushman type vehicle just doesn't do the job. You need a 4 wheel drive truck and possibly a tractor and other things. If it's not 8 foot wide you're breaking off the edges or you're running in the ditch and if it happens to be wet and muddy then you're cutting a rut in with one wheel then you start getting washouts and various things like that so 8 foot is real... Councilman Geving: So you have to have a fairly good base underneath this too to take on a 4 wheel truck. Larry Schroers: Yes, we like to have at least 6 inches of Class V for a base and a 3 to 4 inch bituminous mat over that. . Sue Boyt: I think that's similar to what Mark has in the specs. Councilman Johnson: It will be a lot more cost effective to put in a good surface the first time rather than go back and tear it down. R~ther than do Laredo Drive down here where this is the first year in memory that it hasn't been dug up and redone. Councilman Geving: On Monday night we authorized a project on North Lotus Lake. Will that meet those specs? Lori Sietsema: I'm quite certain that they will. Councilman Geving: We're going to count on you and this group when those kinds of issues come before us that they follow this spec. Lori Sietsema: Gary is aware of it and he's the one who's going to have to end up maintaining them so he's aware that it's got to be done in the quality too. Sue Boyt: It sounds like council members are pro trail. I think it would help-us to hear about how you would go about financing or your ideas on financing. Councilman Geving: Well, let's get through the first part first. Jay, go ahead. . Councilman Johnson: One thing, just impressions, I'd like to see more of City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 7 a na ture trai 1 on the north'side of the Ci ty whether we get some wi th . Lake Lucy or some other place. We've got Chan Ponds. We've got the little stretch there. I guess we've got access for these. They're not actually trails now but the one along the road. Sue Boyt: -'l'hat' s ~lu;.,e,.I",.c"~'''-:i. Councilman Johnson: I have trouble finding it. At least going on ~he north side. I was going to Carver Beach you could see a trail this morning going off over some trees and stuff. It looked like some packs of kids made up. Lori Sietsema: That one is rough. They went in there and they woodchipped it but woodchips float so when it rains they float away. Councilman Johnson: I don't know if there is any other place around Lake Harrison or some of these other ponds or stuff to be looking at possible nature trails as people come in to develop. We had that designated for Chan Ponds and the developer came in. We've got a lot more ponds here over on this side. Larry Schroers: We do have a nature trail proposed for North Lotus Lake Estates. Lori, don't we have a nature trail proposed for North Lotus Lake? Lori Sietsema: Yes. It's questionable though whether we can get thrOUgh. or not because it's a wet area. Councilman Johnson: That's one of my concerns. Overall I'm very much in favor of the plan. I assume these ending trails up here are hitting the Carver County Park up there and that's why they're ending is because they're connecting with their trails. I'm not sure what those are, walking through the industrial area. Councilman Geving: Do you mean this Phase 1 is a 5 year phase? A total 5 year phase? When you do planning though and then actually do the implementation of the plan, you look at some shorter alternatives like what are we going to do next year? What are we going to do the following year within that 5 year plan? Have you got that scoped out? Jim Mady: The initial 5 year has been laid out as to which particular items we want in year 1, year 2, year 3. Sue Boyt: Would you like us to go through that? Councilman Geving: No, that's not necessary. Just so we know that's being done. One of the dreams that I've always had, from my own personal perspective is that I'd like to see the Lake Ann trail all the way around Lake Ann. I think of Lake Harriet and some of these little lakes, people just love to get out and walk around the lake and I know this guy he'd walk around it every morning and I probably would too. It just seems . ~ ,. _-~T - ~''''V~_................,""..,.. ..-;;.........., _'''-_-'10(. .--........4:-41' -....____.~_: City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 8 . like such a natural and'-ii;-'-s-cr"good place to start now. trouble with that trail on the east side? Did we have Carol Watson: We simply haven't been able to acquire the land. Councilman'-G(Nnrg'!"~e'S:,$u"t; "'[;"m~ .:t;rar.I ,t.n~we did build, is that working? Carol Watson: Yes. It gets a tremendous amount of use daily. They park over by us so they don't have to pay to get into the park. Councilman Geving: But that to me would be a real objective to do something that I know we could complete and have a loop that really goes someplace and shows that we've completed part of the plan. Larry Schroers: you'd have unanimous support on that I'm sure if we could acquire the property. Councilman Geving: Let me pursue that for just a minute. A lot of that property belongs to Prince right on the north side, northwest side. Don't you think we've got a fairly good chance of getting some of that donated if we work at it? Carol Watson: I don't think that section is ultimately going to be a problem. When you have the one private homeowner on there who's personal . delight is in knowing that he can mess up that. Councilman Geving: Mr. Gorra would probably stick it to us. Carol Watson: Yes, he's very candid about it. He knows that we have to get through his to go all the way around. Councilman Geving: That's just my own personal opinion. Jim Mady: When we set up our personal priorities in the first 5 years, the Lake Ann, the connection all the way around Lake Ann was, as I recall, that was our number one priority but we also realized that nothings probably going to be done number one but as soon as it's available we're going to do it. It's shown as the second phase but if it becomes available next week. Councilman Geving: Bill, let's here from you. Councilman Boyt: Are there any questions on my comments on paper here? Councilman Johnson: Actually there was one other particular thing that bugs me but I don't think it's in the general trail plan. It's on the particular implementation and that's Kerber Blvd.. That we're crossing Kerber Blvd. twice to get to the grade school. When the kids come play soccer, baseball whatever, riding their bicycles, we've got to do . something. ... __.w..""""- ..4-..:.',......ciCM-~', City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 9 Larry Schroers: Didn '-t".we-'-baVe .an underdr i ve for that? . Councilman Boyt: issue? They're building it. How can you say it's not a dead Councilma"nJolinson:At'~Ftpresented-a-feasrore alternati ve that nobody seemed to even want to discuss yet. Councilman Geving: Talking about something similar to that, why haven't we mapped out this plan through here to get to there? We're going to have hundreds of people up on this area, all along in here that are going to have to get to that park. I thought we had one shown. Carol Watson: We did when we had the streets but when the plan, when Chaparral West or whatever it was going to be called, when that street plan was there then we had a nice trail system running right over to Lake Ann Park through that trail system but the minute we lost Chaparral West, the trails when with the streets and that was the end of that but there still will have to be something with good sight distances up there because are not going to want them filtering down CR 17. Councilman Geving: I'd like to see that on the plan. Whether there's a road there or whether there's a big outlot, we're going to get to the park by not coming off TH 5 _but CR 17. Carol Watson: But you know Eckankar isn't going to hold onto that land . forever. Councilman Geving: string across there. I'd just like to show it on the plan. Just I'd like to have you present this Bill. run a Councilman Boyt: The key point in that paragraph for me and I guess given what Jay just said, maybe we differ there but I think this is important enough to do it and fund it in one shot. I actually think that that might be smart given that the way we've set it up now, what we're building is to the north and we're saying to the folks in the south wait. I think that's what we're saying to them. The difference between building it all and building some of it is not a great deal of money. I agree with what you said Dale about circling the lakes. I think when we get the chance to do that, that's an excellent idea. I like what I see there. It's a nice network. I can hardly wait until we have it. Councilman Geving: Thank you and I guess we don't have any other questions of Mark at this time? Mark Koegler: Can I summarize real quickly the major points I'm hearing. Look at addressing snowmobile trails as a proponent of the plan. Look if there are areas where nature trails can be expanded. Those are relatively low cost items by the way. And then the last thing was the connection between Lake Ann Park and the Saddlebrook area. . '1L. ...... .............~.. - It .... - ._"_.. - .. City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 10 . Councilman Johnson: I jQst'~ad the one other that I brought up and didn't get to finish. This should have been brought to you Mark. Have you looked at cutting through Chan Park with the existing trail on this new cul-de-sac? We've got a trail connection to the grade school right her: on tE~.s__~ul-d~.sac. .4 We've .~ot a~ail.c_coming down here. We've got tralls comlng to"""llere;rd-ong'the-eas-f"sl<re0r the road. There's no topography to prevent this trail from continuing here, cutting through this park and up to here where the kids don't have to cross here, come down here, cross here, come over here, come down here and cross a third time to get to the grade school. If we can say that is safe, the Mayor can say that we can send a guard down here and a guard down here and a guard down here but it ain't going to happen and it's not going to happen for youth athletics in the evening when the kids come in. You've got some real bad soils down here. I know that. I've walked the area but it still will be feasible for kids on bicycles or kids walking to put something other than the nature trail on the short segment, come down the side of the hill. The side of the hill is going to be a slight challenge. The kids will love it and then bring it up part of Kerbers over the farm path which is a dedicated trail to us right now. We own it. Sue Boyt: The nature trail won't be woodchip so I don't know if it's been decided. . Councilman Johnson: I don't want the whole area bikeable per se but the cut through here. The property is there. Sue Boyt: I'd like to keep the kids off Kerber too. Councilman Johnson: You know what they're going to do? They're not going to cut across three street crossings, they're going to take Kerber Bl vd . . Carol Watson: Like they do right now because that's the only my son can get there. Councilman Johnson: But you give them a fun little hill to go down and back through, we may be able to get them off of Kerber Blvd. and away from traffic. Councilman Geving: How would they get to the school then Jay? Councilman Johnson: We've got an asphalt path running from this cul-de- sac into the backyard of the school. Now the school has to complete a path from this end of the school property. This part of Chan vista. It's already asphalted, culverts and everything is in there. Sue Boyt: We could probably share in the cost in the trail and the school property because that's owned by kind of both groups. . Councilman Johnson: I thought somebody was already working on that. City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 11 Kids are already taking' 'tt'With their bikes. They're cutting their own . path through. Councilman Boyt: I think we cross Kerber for some pretty good reasons. Even though we didn't like to cross Kerber, the topography forced us'to cross Kerb-erwithfne-,~I::a:l'iwe,pu;t':-tll0n-<fxerber" and this may offer an alternative. Councilman Geving: If there was a walkover type facility over Kerber. Councilman Johnson: They're expensive. Councilman Geving: They're expensive but... Councilman Johnson: The only time I've ever seen them actually utilized is when there were fences to prevent the kids from just cutting through. Councilman Geving: of locations. I see it all the time in Edina. You see it in a lot Carol Watson: On Highway 100. Councilman Geving: Let's move on. Let's hear from Dick. Dick Potts: I appreciate the opportunity to talk to the Council and the Park and Rec. I'm Richard Potts and I live at 6991 Tecumseh in . Chanhassen. I'm here tonight, I found out about the corridor before there was a joint meeting just in the trail map and I'm here as past, President of the Snowmobile Club and I'm currently Chairman of the Board of the Snowmobile Club. I just wanted to give you a couple thoughts I think from a snowmobilers point of view. I don't know who snowmobiles and who doesn't and who understands what is going on in town. What's going on in the southwest area. The snowmobilers, the club in Chanhassen is available to all volunteers. The Chanhassen club is one of seven clubs that makes up a network of southwest trails system. The southwest trail system is Eden Prairie, Chaska, Chanhassen, clubs in Minnetonka, out in St. Boni, Victoria and we go all the way out the Luce Line. We, through the grant and aid trail system, we get our money through the DNR, the grant and aid system. They're all volunteers and we go out and seek permission from the landowners. We get written access for their property. We work with governmental agencies like the Hennepin County Park Reserve system which we're currently operating a system through Minnewashta Park. We're apparently operating a system through Carver Park and grooming it through there. We're out there to promote safe snowmobiling. We mark them. We maintain them and widen them out and groom them. We're currently operating two groomers. We're currently marking and maintaining about 90 miles of trail systems out here. We go through Chanhassen, south all the way across the river and the bridge across the river at Chaska and we can go across the TH 169 bridge to Shakopee and hook up to the Minnesota Valley State Trail system. We mark and groom all the way up the Luce Line which is a state trail system so . ..........4..,.-_~ liT _,~~. ...........-.....~/~. .~ -:.....:*,;.. - . . . City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 12 like I said, we're the ,o'south'w~st.trail system. We hook up to the northwest trail system and subsequently to Prior Lake and Dakota. Right now you can get on a snowmobile, if we get snow this winter, and you can ring the 7 county metro area. Chanhassen is an important part of that. We like to work with ~lice. We work with Carver County Sheriff's DepartmeI1f:--We want';~~romote~Ctf"e:-snowmobillng. We want to collect our 1 icense money. All the money we get is from the DNR 1 i cense money so we want the snowmobilers licensed. We want them to stay on the trail. Back in the old days it was like the bad motorcycle guys giving the motorcycles a bad name and then of course there's the 1% or 5%, the guys that run over everybody's backyards that wrecks it for the snowmobilers too and I know of you do and some of you maybe don't. The whole trick is that we're trying to promote a trail system. We feel that if we can maintain a system, we can mark it, we have a better opportunity to keep them on it. You talk about lights and walkways, the more walkways we have the safer it's going to be for everybody that's biking and walking. The same way with snowmobiles. We've had problems over the past few years with the development occurring out here. We keep getting pushed and pushed and pushed but we still want to maintain a system out here and I brought some trail maps along. Councilman Geving: Maybe you could just show us on this major map here. Dick Potts: What we really want to know I guess, if we could work with the Councilor work with the Park and Rec for an overall plan to see if we can get some of these trails that mayor may not have been in our current plan into a multi-use plan. You're not going to bike on all of them in the wintertime. We operate a system right now that comes into Chanhassen, right through the downtown area, moves right out of Chan Lawn Sports. We've got two rooms there. Comes down to the intersection of TH 5 and Powers Blvd.. Goes on the north side of TH 5, through Lake Ann Park. We'd like to go around in here but we can't there either Dale. We currently go across Lake Ann. We currently have permission. We mark and maintain a system through here and north along up to a point about in here and it winds through over to CR 17 and onto the Minnewashta Park system. Across Minnewashta, north up to the Fire Station up there. We go down TH 7 to hi t the ra i 1 road bed. The ra i 1 road bed we mar k and maintain out to victoria. We also mark and maintain a system that goes through the Business Park. It goes all the way down CR 17 to Chaska. There's another route that comes around this way on the north side of Lake Susan. There's a sewer easement there we ride. Behind the Legion, across from Rice Marsh Lake right down through here and then into the Eden prairie trail system. Councilman. Johnson: summer. It'd be a good place for a nature trail in the Dick Potts: Absolutely. We don't ride there in the summer. There's been all kinds of articles that the DNR has put out about how many inches of snow you can run over. You need 4 to 6 inches of snow... Basically we're heading for the downtown area. We've got one run that ends around ."'-_.............'..._.~. ....., City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 13 Lake Ann and across' to "M'inn"ewashta this way. Another run that goes down. CR 17, over CR 18 this way and down CR 17 all the way down to Chaska. Councilman Johnson: You're running basically in the road ditches. Dick pot!5": We"'re .runn-~~~'t6e':rDaa(htch souE1i~ We keep winding around through the Business Park. We used to go through the middle of the Business Park and now when the big bad wolf just went in, we run around the corner of that. So we're having problems up in this area with the development starting to the south of Prince. We're having trouble getting across there. We're considering moving our trail system around in this area. We've had some troubles over there the last few years. Another alternate we've got is down TH 5. We've got a bridge to construct over this creek right here. Get the groomers across there and we've got to clear that right-of-way out of there which is not a problem. Over across Galpin Blvd. and we've got permission from the landowners and permission from NSP to run an easement north along the power lines. There's problems associated with that though. We've got some problems over here right across from Prince so I guess what I'm trying to tell you is if you could, in your trail system, put easements in here whether they are required as trail easements, if you don't have any problem with a multi-use plan, give us an opportunity to use that trail system. Councilman Johnson: If you, put asphalt down, it's going to melt snow off and stuff and it won't be a good trail. Larry Schroers: We've been doing experimentation with that for the last. two years and when you've got adequate snowfall and if the groomer packs it, once it's packed, it doesn't melt any faster there than it melts anywhere else. We've been running cross country ski trails and snowmobile trails right on top of it with real good luck. Provided we have adequate snow. That's the key to the whole thing. If we don't have enough snow you can't run anywhere. Until you get enough snow, you can go almost anywhere. Councilman Johnson: In looking at the cross country ski trails, I would like to personally keep them separate from the snowmobilers. Dick Potts: You're absolutely right. Councilman Johnson: snowmobiler. It's kind of tough on the shins to get nailed by a Dick Potts: We've got the same problem. Through Minnewashta. Minnewashta Park maintains a ski system. We maintain a snowmobile system through there. Carver Park is the same thing. We've got a couple trails that come very close together. Larry Schroers: there. I know where that is. That's right along the dike . ...... --- - '.... -"'P""- ~~. ....................____ ,_ City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 14 . Dick Potts: Yes ,weTve 'gata-problem on the dike there. We've got to get that out of there. We rope it off. There is a problem. You can't run them on the same trail systems. The skiers lose every time. We've got two groomers. If you're interested we can make the city a deal and get intE, a~ln~e~ do~ i~~.~~.~JrNJ~~).Jf!l;1~om~nt_,_and all we have to do, is cut enough ln tliere><to.<etlt"'Your'''!.sJ{f.tralls for your cross country Skl trails. Same equipment. Councilman Boyt: I have a comment for you. I think if you work with Mark, and you probably should have been doing this, seek those easements especially where you already have them. Maybe we can see if we can't do something to formalize it before development comes in. It sounds like you have excellent relationships with many of the property owners and that would help us get this underway. I personally, although I think in the summertime there would be alternate uses for that trail, I would really encourage to stick to a single purpose and that would be snowmobiles. I think that would eliminate a lot of future problems for us. In the winter the trails you have there would be dedicated to snowmobiles. As a cross country skier, I know firsthand that the two aren't real compatible. Yet I know that the best way to allow for snowmobile use in Chanhassen is to have a trail system. I really support your effort. . Councilman Horn: I think the key there too is the fact that all you really need is an easement. It takes no maintenance and there's no acquisition cost for you to use it. Councilman Geving: I think the key to getting an easement and keeping it is goodwill. You've created it before and as long as there isn't any problem. Dick Potts: So long as the club is ars>und we'll still mark that. We'll still maintain that. As far as compatibility, the only non-compatibility is cross country skiing. There are a lot of cross country skiers along these trails right now. Just because we groom them. You walk down here and go around the corner, they're on a snowmobile trail and there are signs that say no motorized vehicles except snowmobiles, etc., etc.. The Luce Line is a typical example and I'm sure the Park systems has got a lot of them, it's a bicycle and walkway in the summer. Larry Schroers: Multi-use makes just all kinds of sense because of the work and expense involved in developing and maintaing a. trail, you want to get the most use out of it that you can and I don't see a problem with running over parts of our bike trail in the wintertime for snowmobiling. Where it runs in line with the rest of our trail system and also there are certainly enough other parts of the trail where we can mark it for cross country skiing, is really just a matter of signage. Councilman Geving: Any other comments for Dick? . City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - page 15 Jim Mady: On thetrails;-acr-yo\i -have a time when they're open and closed? . Dick Potts: No. Jim Mady: AS crevelapml~J'j~Jri'_l'1;~.i1:Afi~~it6er out~if we put up a trail easement along a development and you've got guys running their snowmobiles at midnight, we've got real problems. You're going to. have phones ringing off here. Sue Boyt: Chanhassen is one of the only cities that doesn't have a curfew set for snowmobiles. All the other cities have curfews set. Dick Potts: The City of Chaska is one example, as far as the southwest trail system. You can't ride the outskirts of Chaska after 10:00. Once you leave the trail system, it's the closest direct route from the trail to your house. So Chaska has a snowmobile ordinance. I think Victoria has an ordinance. Eden prairie has an ordinance. Jim Mady: The only other thing I wanted to mention and make sure we have an understanding, some of the trails we've got on there, in the winter will be plowed for runners because there are a lot of runners who run all year long and they will be running on the trail so we've got to realize that those people are going. to be out there also. Councilman Geving: Okay, I think Dick made his point and I think th~ . message is there. Jeff Hanson: I represent Southwest Trail and I'm the current Vice President this year and I also represent Chanhassen Lawn and Sports. Being a businessman in this town and knowing what people are using the trails along here for, as far as the Southwest Trails is concerned, a lot of developments are not aware of the f~ct that during trail acquisition, such that you're talking about now, if you were to set aside hiking trails or bicycle trails, our money that we get in a grant can go towards those acquisition fees. As a matter of fact, this year we've got $25,000.00 to draw on .for our trail maintenance and that can go for snowmobile, cross country ski, hiking, as long as that trail is to be used in the wintertime for snowmobiles so there is another fund there for you to draw on. Councilman Geving: That's good for Lori to know. Jeff Hanson: If we have a year in advance time to promote to know what's going on through the DNR, through the grant aid system, we can apply for those trails. Councilman Johnson: Outside of the snowmobiling, there may be some other funds the DNR has with a grant in kind. Jeff Hanson: Our purpose is to maintain these snowmobile trails. . ...................~~. "~i -~"''''_''_L -...,.....,._ _ City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 16 . Whether it's groomingiT,-~Yornarnb:dn our machinery, to buy land, to buy buildings for our equipment, it's for anything we can use it for. Dick Potts: Using it in the summer doesn't create a problem. ---.".f JIl.fl<;..... ~r...' II!IJ.' . ~ .-- Jeff Hanson: - 'No,-.fb:doesn~'~'Creat'e: 'ol1e"problem at all. As long as that trail can be used for snowmobiling, that's the only stipulation. Shore wood is a good example. That was being closed down and you talk about an ordinance and you talk about fighting with people. We did a sound test, and I don't have the test results with me but none of the machines that were tested were anything louder than a lawn mower. Councilman Horn: In answer to Jay's question about other sources, what you have to look at is there's got to be a revenue source. You license snowmobiles. Some places are licensing cross country skiers. That's a revenue source that you get so you won't get any activity, sponsoring activity that isn't licensed somehow. Carol Watson: So there are funds available so it can come from somewhere. Jeff Hanson: Plus you're bringing other people in to Chanhassen. Snowmobilers corne out of the metro area, unload the machines at Filly's or our store or down at the .Legion, you're bringing people here. . Councilman Geving: Okay, I think we're going to move on and I thank very much for corning. Let's move on to the third item in the agenda which is the 1988 capital improvement program. Lori, do you want to start out with this? you Lori Sietsema: In your packet I included what the Park and Recreation Commission is recommending for the capital improvement program for park development in 1988. I also included the Minutes of the discussion of this so you had an idea of where we were corning from. Do you want me to run through it? Everybody has read it. I think just go around with comments starting with the City Council. Councilman Geving: Before we do that, I'm under the impression that there was $100,000.00 in the budget. Is that correct? For park development this year. Isn't that right Don? Isn't there approximately $100,000.00 in the Park Improvement Program for 1988? Don Ashworth: The program as recommended by the Park Commission has been included in the 1988 budget. Councilman Geving: Okay, whatever the number is, it's there. Now the individual pieces of that budget is what we'~e expecting this group to corne to the Council and give us an idea of what you're priorities are going to be, right? That's really what we're talking about but the budget is there. It's set. We approved it tonight. . City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - page 18 ~ Carol Watson: We can get permission from the police to have a party and use off street parking. . Councilman Johnson: If they called and asked Frank was unaware of it. He just happened to be there at the same time that I happened to be there. Councilman Geving: Okay, let's stay with this now. Comments from any of the Council members. Councilman Johnson: Grass for the infield is one of the Lake Ann park so we can have some Li ttle League there. We are trying to establ i sh a Little League this coming year, or Little League type. Not a sanctioned Little League and one of the things that everybody is saying is a Little League quality pitcher mound and grass in the infield. Councilman Geving: The only diamond that would fit is the first one. Lori Sietsema: No, Little League is small. The ideal field out at Lake Ann right now would be Field 3, the one that's closest to the lake. Councilman Geving: How does the Park and Rec people feel about that suggestion? Jim Mady: Unfortunately that field gets so much use with all the . softball teams and they're not compatible uses. You can't play softball on a Little League field. Softball would wreck it and the fences are too short. It just wouldn't work. Councilman Johnson: We take care of our adults very well. What are we going to do for our 5th and 6th graders? Sue Boyt: Next year they're going to play at Lake Ann on a non- sanctioned field as Little League and we're hoping that between now and two years from now we acquire some property to build some Little League baseball diamonds on. Jim Mady: One of the things we could do if we do expand Lake Ann now, do the grading, we could put in, we could upgrade 1 to a Babe Ruth field by putting grass in the infield and fixing up the infield bases. Sue Boyt: They would have to have dugouts. Curt Robinson: We're concerned about the same thing Jay and that's one of the reasons I'm on the Park and Rec Commission is because I complained to Lori about having to run l~ miles to have my kid play baseball and soccer and she said why don't you get on the Park and Rec Commission and do something about it. Jim Mady: If we expand Lake Ann, then we can make the field next to the proposed Babe Ruth field a sanctioned Little League field. Then we have . City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 19 , . two other fields. Councilman Geving: This is how I feel about this and it involves a lot of what you're talking about. We own the existing 20 acres of undeveloped Lake Ann Park now for 3 years I believe. 3 or 4 years. It would make sense to me, this year, if we could get a fairly good estimate and maybe Mark would help us on this, get a very good idea of what it would take to come in with leveling equipment, heavy duty equipment, to level off the site the way you have sketched it Mark. I'm sure you must have figures somewhere of what that grading dollar is. Mark Koegler: We have already done that. I don't have it on the tip of my tongue but we do have a grading plan for expansion of the park. Councilman Geving: Is it a lot of money? Carol Watson: Yes. Lori Sietsema: $300,000.00 to $500,000.00. Councilman Geving: Just for grading? Carol Watson: Just grading. . Councilman Horn: As I recall, we were going to try to work it with part of the development. Councilman Geving: That's what our plan was but the developer went away and two or three times we attempted to do that. It just kind of died. Maybe we can't look at the whole picture. Maybe we can take a look at a piece of it. Sue Boyt: We've looked at that too haven't we? Carol Watson: I'll bet in the next 12 months there will be developer there. When you have $500,000.00 assessments, you can't just sit on it and say isn't this a pretty pasture to grow corn in. Something's going to happen and it's going to happen soon. Councilman Geving: The only problem is when we get into the development mode, we're talking 2 or 3 years from now. We really are. Don Ashworth: I wouldn't count on that occurring. They called and said, how was it they phrased it. Would it be alright if we bring in the $500,000.00 in cash on Friday? Lori Sietsema: They're working on getting it all fenced. Councilman Geving: I have a hard time believing that it can't be graded and put into some sort of ball diamond. I just can't believe that can't be done reasonable. I don't know why. . City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 20 , Jim Mady: I would love to see this put in in a private park. To get the~ money to build that and a couple other park projects... There's a couple other projects that we've addressed the Commission need to be looked at including putting a park in south and the trail plan and just tie it all together. Councilman Johnson: I think we need to grab that parkland on the south side before it gets developed. Councilman Geving: Don, why don't you give us some input on it? Don Ashworth: We looked at the trail plan and we're down to a figure of approximately $800,000.00. We do have $100,000.00 in reserve for future development at Lake Ann park. You're looking at $300,000.00 to $500,000.00 expense. By combining the trails and Lake Ann, I did check with our attorneys and verified that that can be one question. We would be at a level of approximately I Million Dollars between the trail system and improving Lake Ann. I think that that is about the size of a package. In other words, as a question itself which could be very pallable to the voters. I'm wondering if for Park Commission members, City Council has already heard so maybe you would rather me do this another night. Councilman Geving: No, go ahead. Don Ashworth: I could just briefly go through the funding techniques ~ that we're looking to for our major facilities including trails and the park system. City Council reviewed a number of facilities approximatey two weeks ago. We have a community facility committee. They're working on a community center right now. We're hoping that that can come in somewhere in the area of 2 1/2 to 3 million dollars. Fire Department has been working over the course of the last four years and they have developed now a plan that they would like to see completed as an addition onto the Fire Station. That has a cost factor of roughly 1 million dollars. If we look to a combined trail and expansion onto Lake Ann Park, and again that total figure then being about I million dollars, you would literally be presenting all three of those questions to the voters at the end of this year. Potentially it could be four. Potentially the community center at 1.5 million and an ice arena an 1.5 million separating those two issues. Councilman Geving: That seems to make some sense to me. Don Ashworth: But in either case you're talking about roughly 5 million dollars. I think for anyone in the community, that has to be a figure that's scary. The fact is that the City has a maximum limitation of approximately 3 million dollars so if you present all of the issues, having a cost factor of 5 million and the citizens vote for all of them, the most you can sell in bonds currently would be 3 million dollars. The council, looking at this said, maybe that's not a bad idea. Why not present it to the voters in exactly that fashion. Tell them that this iS~ City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 21 j . . a 3 to 5 year plan and tha t if they do vote for all of them, it would appear as though that we could carry out the construction of all four faci 1 i ties. ...on that property when it comes to January 1st of 1988. The first time there will be any value on that piece of property is going to be January 1, 1989 for collection in 19913 so when we plot this value valuation line in here, we are not plotting something that is hypothetical. We're taking only actual construction up to, this went back through the end of August so we have seen some additional construction that could actually be plugged in here but it's only actual construction. We then flatten that out for what might be the future years. If you now look at the difference between our new valuation line and also as a part of this study what we did is we went back and measured each one of these various debt issues to see how well they were doing in comparison to the original projections. In every case we found that those funds were doing better than had originally been anticipated. So in other words, instead of requiring a debt payment of roughly $61313,131313.1313 in the year 1993, in fact when we get into the year 1994, the actual debt payment at that point in time will be $4713,131313.1313 to $4813,131313.1313. There's been that much improvement in each one of those funds. The average is $2313,131313.1313 per year. That will support a bond issue of roughly 2 1/2 to 3 million dollars. The bottom line out of all of this is that by restructuring the city's existing debt, in comparison to actual known new valuation, we're going to be into a position of telling the voters that there will not be any tax impact for this proposed referendum. There's no way we can exceed the 3 million dollar limitation. So the voters are reasonably assured that the city in fact will not create a property tax increase as a part of this package we're proposing. Similarly, our limitation would be 3 million for this year but we're anticipating that, as a part of this, that we would be able to bring on an additional million dollars in debt capacity each year for the next two year period of time. So that means that in a way you would actually structured this would be saying to the voters that if they would vote for this and tell us which priorities they choose, that we would be in a position to sell bonds at a level of approximately 2 1/2 to 3 million dollars in 1988. That we would anticipate a secondary sell during the timeframe of 19913 to 1991 for an additional million dollars. That we anticipate a third bond issue during the timeframe of 1991 to 1993, a little overlap in there for the last million dollars. If we do not get the valuation for that secondary facility, whatever it may be, we'll be back in the same position. State law will kick back in and will not allow us to sell the bonds for that second million dollars or the third million dollars. Again, you're reasonably protecting the voters. One of the things that we discussed upstairs, and this was part of the budgetary portion, was recognition that the City does have a relatively high tax base right now. In going back to the community and explaining these options, one of the options will have to be if they choose to deny all of the facilities, there is the ability to reduce property taxes as a result of really this chart. Our finding. That in fact the reduction can occur of approximately $2313,13130.1313. The valuation levels currently is at 713 million and we're anticipating over the next two years it will rise to 813 million and 913 million. That's for assessed . City Council/Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 7, 1987 - Page 22 j value so that means each mil reduces today $70,000.00. In two years it ~ will produce $90,000.00 so in essence this $230,000.00 represen~s approximately 3 mils which You can equate to approximately 3%. So if you feel that your property taxes are very exorbinate, you do not need any of these facilities, then you should vote no and as a result of that, you reasonably should be able to see your property taxes reduced by 3% of your bottom line property tax bill as it is today. So if it's $2,000.00, you can expect a $60.00 reduction by voting against any and all of the facilities. Councilman Geving: Any questions of Don? Councilman Johnson: A comment. All of this is proposed. There has not been a vote that we are absolutely going to have a referendum and all these things are going to go before the voters as it was said in several newspapers a few weeks ago when this kind of stuff was first presented to Council. It came off as this is going to happen. We're going to build and we're going to have a referendum for this. We're in the very early planning stages of this whole thing and obviously I'm saying that for Mary's purpose. Councilman Geving: But Jay is absolutely right. We are playing with about four pieces of a major puzzle here and a million dollars is going on the table here for the Park and Rec is something that a lot of people would vote for. A lot of indication came back from the survey that _ people want trails but will they want trails over an ice arena or will W' they want trails over the sports complex or the fire station? Those are the issues and in order to be real fair, at least this is my feeling and I don't know how the rest of the council feels, I think that every citizen has a right to hear and vote on each of those four items. The other option would be for the Council to say well, if we're only got 3 million dollars, we'll pick and choose and give the voters a chance for the two i terns or three i terns that we want them to vote yes or no on. We're not going to do that. At least that's my opinion. I would prefer to have them see all four of them and let the voters decide back to us. I think that's the fair way to do it. If it all comes back and they say I want the fire station and I want the trails, then fine. That's the way we go. The sports complex and the ice arena is another time. Councilman Horn: The only disadvantage of having a referendum is it will cost money to have a referendum but once you have one, you can put as many items on it as you want and it costs very little more to add. Carol Wa tson: We can cover, if we take the ti me to work it out, we can cover everything we will need in one referendum and it will be worth the price to know again what people want. Councilman Horn: We already know what they wanted in the poll but now we're going to say... ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 19 41pc hroer s moved, Wa t so~ ~e~~~:~'~d-~:' ~ab 1 e the item re fer ring at City Center Park until next meeting.' All voted in favor carried. to ice rinks and motion --"\~...-_. --.......__......."'b...441,,8IL.IIlI.'...._ ..;.1..4" -~.........~.~........__.-.. Curt Robinson: Do we need to act ,on >all the others, like flooding on late Friday night or Saturday and walkways in front? Lori Sietsema: Why don't you just table the whole thing and I'll come back and tell you exactly what I know from the pop machine guy and the candy vendor and the little snack box and I'll have the whole thing back for you. _ .. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: REFERENDUM CONSIDERATION, JIM MADY. - Jim Mady: I just wanted to mention a couple things on here. Within the next couple of months the City Council is going to be requested to take a look at a referendum sometime probably at the end of February. Possibly early March but if we were to get anything that we want outside of the things that are being proposed that have nothing to do with us outside of the trail plan. There are some other things that I feel we need to ask for and if we don't ask for them, they're not going to end up on the referendum. I just want to make sure that everything I'm looking for is <<oposed to the Council and let them do what they want. I put on Lake n expansion and I'm not sure if half a million dollars is enough but to .. what we need to do is put the soccer field in the front, we need to get the access, get sufficient parking for the whole park and I believe ' that we need three more ballfields and until we can get another park developed for Little League play, it makes more sense to me to upgrade the current baseball fields into a Little League field. It's not going to cost a lot. It's basically a grass infield and improving the dugout situation and building one of the new ballfields, making that into a Little League park which again is basically a softball field but putting a fence in. putting a grass infield in. That would be sufficient to handle both Little League and Babe Ruth in the community. Then we have two more softball fields, adequate parking and putting the trail in through there. I'm not sure about lighting additional fields. To my understanding that's more money than we have. I'm not sure what they cost. Lori Sietsema: It's about $65,000.00 to do one field. Jim Mady: If we do two more fields I don't believe we need to do anymore fields at this time. Sue Boyt: I think we talked about lighting the soccer fields didn't we? Lori Sietsema: I don't think we talked about it here but you might want to include that so if we do have fall soccer. . '.'_.~' Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 20 .;..." ~"_'"-"."'--~tc~...,,.._~ Jim Mady: After the 10th of October you can't play past quarter to 7:00. It's pretty hard to get, anyth.ing done.. -You can't get in a practice so I think that's important to get that done. I also would like to see us ask that the traiLpl~I:1_~b.e ~ut j.Q..~e g,~.UUbQ$.e.trail plan. I threw $800,000.00 at it because I:c-ouldn't' find my notes. Looking back I see it's about $890,000.00 so maybe it should be $900,000.00. I bel ieve that's what we need to ask the Council to include that on a referendum. I also want to check on first phase trail plan, I think we told Mark but I don't remember if it's in there or not, the section along Frontier Trail is supposed to be off-street. I want to make sure that's in those numbers. Lori Sietsema: Yes. Jim Mady: Okay, then on sighting and acquiring parkland, I would like to see us not wait for development to gain us the parkland we're looking for. In the southern area of the city that's not going to be developed for I'm not sure when. I'd like to see us get that parkland now when we can get it. Let's get what we need, what we want instead of hoping and praying that we get something else someday. I think in the southern area it would be nice to get us 10 to 15 acres for active play use being 3 to 4 baseball diamonds, get the soccer fields in there, totlot area. It would actually become a community park in the southern area. Then set aside 35 to 40 maybe 50 acres as a natural area. ...right along Bluff "reek so people can go from that nature area through the Bluff Creek draw ...11 the way down to the Minnesota River which is I'm not sure how many acres down there but it's all public land. It could go from our area, along our nature trail along Bluff Creek down into the Minnesota Valley Nature Area would be a great source to the community. Lori Sietsema: Can I comment on your suggestion about acquiring the land? I know if we go out and we buy it up right now we'll be sure that we have it but that means we're spending money on something that we don't need for 5 to 10 years. I don't know if you have ever looked at the 1991 Land Use Plans that's in your Comp Plan. It identifies the different areas and it shows potential parkland. What I would suggest that we do, instead of going out and buying it because it costs us money to have something tied up in something that we're not using. Like on this one, it has Lake St. Joe all the way around it identified as potential parkland. The person who owns that land right now can not buy it without the city signing off on it and saying we don't want it. They can not sell it. They can not develop it. We have to sign off on that first. It was all the way around Lake Ann and when they sold that property to Prince they carne in here and they asked us, do you want to buy it? It's going to cost x amount of dollars and we said no. We did do that within the last 3 1/2 years. This Commission made that recommendation and the City Council signed off on that. So those kinds of things, they have to c~ome to us if it's earmarked on there. What I would say is we identify exactly maybe a couple different areas so that if it's developed in two vears and we still don't need it, we'll have something to fall back on. It rather than going out and spending the money today when we have other r- ._~~. 1 1'~ ""iI"..;I .c.w......,..........:a.a...-.... .'-.... ____._ , "..- '"00.' _.'" ,. * ~'... _; _" "_'_ . . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 21 . things that are pressing. The Fire Department needs to be expanded too and if we could spend that money on thi ngs tha t are more press i ng, needed right today and use our future dollars for that future acquisition. _.:0'_:' ..,.;;.,;;;:;,._....,,~_.-""... .-_c..,' .__...__.';'_r.__ ~LJ '1 ,JIA..A_ ..........,....---"-~, ..- Jim Mady: The problem-wlthtbatCrs,~toc:acquire the amount of land that we're asking for is going to require a referendum. We don't have $400,000.00 to go, once that piece of land comes up 6 months from now,"40 acres came up and the guy wanted to sell off his 200 acre parcel and we wanted the 40, we couldn't buy it. We don't have the money to do it. Sue Boyt: If we wait for 5 years property is going to increase in value. Lori Sietsema: I know when we purchased the expanded area at Lake Ann, we borrowed that money and we paid it off early. I don't know that we can't do that in the future. Larry Schroers: If we could identify a park deficient area right now, north of that Lake St. Joe area that could be an active play area for the existing residents that are already there who don't have a place, something like that that we could earmark and look at acquiring so we could get something going in the near future because we are, at the present time, deficient in that area and to me that would be practical. ~ri Sietsema: I think we should look at the whole city and earmark thing that we might potentially want. Even if it's a pie in the sky earn. There are some pie in the sky dreams on this but those people still have to come back to us to see if we want it before they can do anything with it because that's part of the Comprehensive Plan. Jim Mady: My biggest problem is, in the southern area there's not a lot of large landowners down there anymore. There are smaller chunks. I'd like to see us get it now. Let's not wait. Let's not hope that we can do something 5 years from now because if we hope we can do something 5 years from now, we won't be able to do it. I keep looking back at what the City of Minneapolis did 100 years ago, they got yelled and screamed at and some of those guys had their lives threatened, people lost their jobs but they still got the best park system in the united States probably and we have that opportunity to do it on a smaller scale and I don't see us doing it on a smaller scale now. The voters may shoot us down and we won't get any of it but at least we have the opportunity of trying to do it now because we can al ways put it on the land use and say that's what we want. But if we don't try this now, we never will be able: to try this because the way it looks now, the amount of things that are going to go to' the voters in the referendum, if the Council pushes it all through, this could have more things in than we're going to have money for in the totalS years so if in 3 years down the road we want to look ::.." at something again, we're not going to be able to go to the voters because they've already used up. Two years down the road we're going to be stuck. It '" . ~ .:. ":j J :._ J..' ( " . .... " .... l . 4~'. ~...~~..;::.: ~..:o. - ~ ~<>~;... '-,_. Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 22 ..._~..,r-.......,......_...........~..-~<.._ Mike Lynch: I agree with Jim. It only costs a nickle to ask. If you get the money on a referendum ""for a 'Speci fie purpose and the people will vote for it, I don't see a reason against going ahead and buying the property and -letting...J.~ ~~ t ..it! _~~tiGtq,L ____.. -. . ".-- ..-.- - -"-- . Jim Mady moved, Mike Lynch seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission forward Jim Mady's memo to the Council which included Lake Ann expansion, Phase 1 of the trail plan, sighting and acquiring of parkland. All voted in favor and motion carried. Mady moved, Robinson seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Lori Sietsema -Park and Recreation Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim ~. - - ~ -Li 1 vo::-~~..- If" .~"-~,~__-.~~.~_.' .--..-._.........--..4.. 4 ,,--- _.,-~)....v'f........F'~~.:-..... . . . tfIh.. 5' . October 13, 1987 ~ ~~ ^.~. . .~~ ~ ~~ "f". .,r To: Park & Recreation Commissioners & Staff r'\ , ' I" . ,\ Refer: Referendum :~ We have an opportunity within the next few months to ask the voters of Chanhassen to fund park expansion projects as part of our five year plan. I feel it is important that we send a clear message to the City Coun~il through a motion at our next meeting as to what we want to see on a referendum in early 1988. My personal projects along with cost estimates are list below. I. Lake Ann Expansion $500,000. . A. Grading entire site B. Develope active areas 1) 1 regulation soccer field 2) 1 regulation little league field 3) convert existing baseball diamond to regulation babe ruth field 4) 2 additional softball fields 5) additional parking 6) light additional fields j ~. ::' .....", III. Site & Acquire Parkland $400,000. $350 - 400,000. II. Phase I Trail Plan A. South Co~~unity Park 1) Connected to existing Bluff Creek Parkland 2) Adjacent to southern edge of Hwy 212 corridor 3) 10-15 acres for active use and 35-40 acres for passive natural areas 4) develope park 5-10 years B. West Lake Minnewashta Neighborhood Park 1) Lake St Joe area 2) 5+ acres Please review and be prepared to discuss these projects as well as any you may have to add. . ~~ ,"".)..'., j ... bituminous pedestrian/bicycle (..aii Lake Ann .,. "- , I t I I I , \ I i I i t t 01... "'1" ... ~.. ~ tree farm i=\i= fH3 fI)fI) t I EXISTING SANIT AllY SEWER EXISTING FACIliTIES PROI'OSlD FACll.ITlES IGllANTJ PROI'OSlD FAaJTIES lFUTUltEl TH5 L SITE PLAN PREVIOUS LAWCON DR LCMR GRANTS: k LW27-00327 LW27-01081 LW27-0123S -.,,, ._-" --.,~ CARVER COUNTY TOTAl. PARK SIZE: 80 ACRES ........ - .. .... 1 .. 1 Lake Ann Park City of Chanhassen ~Van~,~_~ -.,...., -.. ....Or......, '''5 ._.r. Chanhassen, Minnesota ___ NolO' -.. . . . . . . l~i; r"' L~ C 1 '(! C F:i:~r:-::.E.:'r.:'t':~ :;' i:-'" (:! ~- '~-. !::.'~"\ .-" 2:'- CI C' C' F' '(" ~~CC'!?!c:!::. j ::~:, Cl C' C' f:? (" " ~:.-;: ) H C:l c~ c:: Re,e'",! ::)"i~\1 t ur,,:, {IC<US-. . j-~. 1 '(I r.~ r":C.C: lw~ ,.,,:,",~:;:, turn:: f'lC<U!:: S":. C'.:\ ::.':~ Y'! rJ ~-:. U ::";-. l~.'t'~'. i:7\.j L c.,'~ ,::.:. ~ "~:' (~ "r-' \/ " i"~_ d :~:~. :: .L) c.:.::. ~~- C. 'f ._ ..:': '::.~. :~::.. "ow,a .{f.? P "~l c:\ ~~.:. €:' I ~tl ..:.',. t..,} If 0 (:) () ~L Z:" i)()() t~,., ()() () 7' E, It (H)(} ~. <.). O(h) t.. (i()() 10.000 "7 . ~:;()() E~, '~~.. j C'(> ~::, L." -;;' (1 (j -:t~ 1 .!. '-~ ,.. ~ c! 'r", '-<f~:';::: U... i:':\ ;' (.::.:1':"\ E'''::IC Cf':"-"' ,. <:",1,:' , , ,_<".. .; ".;, ,~. ... - :). e:~ c f., '.-:-;' , " i'".: \. ~"; ,\ e< i:\ rj \,~ ,", \"' I" =i~ t":t . 1 -' ):::' ':.:-.\ (-( ~'. t. >;::. , . ~- ] E: -'+ ~.-.:~ ~:( J .}. ::> - ~ ::\ ~.. ~~:~'~, :0.. :'::;' c ~:i :~,:~ i_ Ct t. ~~:; ;.:? , c. ~~. :__e,t. ~ j-. t: I 'r"' ~ ;..., .". CC<~1: - ~:.; 1 ~;I:~ ~I:,n";:l OJ'l Co.Sf e;r Lt-J't1 ~ ') !] -I c.-\ r.~. I.::'. ,. _ ~ .!. J 'TCtt: a:1 $ .y.o.ooe) ,;0. f' ~~ i) J'/i "'.} f't:::,,, I"!i,-=, 1 ~:::" (!(i(> ;::' f?, n (} (1 () t;,'If ()()(i :)" (}(j(} 6. t;:,OO 1 ;~: ~ E.()() \ E;,. ceo 1 ~;. f)(H) .""."' C J.. It ()()('} '7.. =.;()(} ~ :~ : :~: :~: ;~: 15.000 ':.~ ~:~" J. (H) :1. ~?';:::t1 ;::()() ~~> 7 I( ':..4("}f) ~.:~ i:t" C:, (} (" ~j(i() ~r: l z: ~ .. ()()() ~.;:~:::,E.. E\(jf) ... "",' , J