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PC 1996 07 17CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JULY 17, 1996 Chairwoman Mancino called the meeting to order at 7:10 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Craig Peterson, Ladd Conrad, 'Bob Skubic, Kevin Joyce, Nancy Mancino, and Jeff Farmakes STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Planning Director; Bob Generous, Senior Planner; and Dave Hempel, Assistant City Engineer PUBLIC HEARING: VARIANCE TO THE PARKING LOT SETBACK REQUIREMENTS AND A SIGN PLAN REVIEW FOR A 10~000 SQUARE FOOT RETAIL FACILITY ON 1.06 ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED BH~ HIGHWAY BUSINESS DISTRICT AND LOCATED AT 501 WEST 78TH STREET~ HIWAY 5 CENTRE~ ROMAN ROOS/MIKE RAMSEY. Kate Aanenson presented the staff report on this item. Mancino: Any questions for staff at this point? I just have one and that is the variance or the setback is 25 feet. Now you said that the Prairie House, when it was there, had the same setback as what is being requested tonight. Aanenson: Correct. Mancino: Now is that because it's prior to the ordinance that was passed for a 25 foot setback? Aanenson: Correct. I believe that was consistent with how that area was developed. Mancino: Originally? Aanenson: At that time, right. Yeah, and I guess in evaluating, we said you know, it's consistent with what's on either side in that area and the sidewalk being on either sides we felt that was... Mancino: Is that normally what we do though? Aanenson: On a variance criteria, generally we look at what's surrounding within 500 feet. What other people have had. Sometimes that's a rule of thumb that we've used for criteria. What's consistent within 500 feet. Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Mancino: But when we pass a new ordinance, do we not expect new development to follow the new ordinance or? Aanenson: Certainly I think that it's an issue we did examine. You know would it be, is it onerous and can it be accomplished? Certainly you could say that we could put it there and then require the shared parking. Mancino: That's my other question. Is there another option besides granting the variance? Aanenson: It's my understanding that you could do a shared parking with the hotel site. I guess what we'd also be concerned in the long run too, if the hotel site, they haven't had a parking problem to date but that doesn't mean in the future that they couldn't be generating more parking. Mancino: Okay, so we could do shared parking and we're looking at that more and more. Aanenson: Sure. Yep. That's an option, certainly. Mancino: Okay, thank you. Any other questions? Conrad: Yeah. In the recommendations. I don't, number 2. Wall signs are permitted on no more than two street frontages. A total of each wall mounted sign display area shall not exceed 24 square feet. Is that right? Aanenson: That would be this. For each tenant. Conrad: For each tenant? Aanenson: Correct. And maybe we could clarify that. Conrad: That's the major difference between what I thought the staff report kind of said. Mancino: Okay, thank you. Is the applicant here and do you wish to approach the Planning Commission? Roman Roos: Good evening. My name is Roman Roos. I am the developer for Mr. Mike Ramsey. The center that you're looking at has... This evening regards, the first issue is the sign ordinance I guess. Indeed when you look at the building north/south, the very north end of it will be the Gold Medal Sports. Mike Ramsey will be having his signs on two sides of the property .... signs on the north side facing along 79th Street. We'll also have a sign on 2 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 the west side, which the majority of the signs will be. As you move down the property from north to south, each of the five...will have signs on the east and west side of the property. Again within the ordinance of 24 square foot on each of them. We're going to try and keep standardized letters again...We're looking real hard at trying to keep the signage common in color. When you have some franchises that are major franchises, they have a little problem. We'll try to keep a relatively close consistency in the size of the sign and the back lighting of the sign. To try and keep them all one color is going to be very difficult.., as in most strip centers as far... The only exception to the rule will be on the south side, is on the north side. That will be the Chesapeake Bagel operation, the sign as I understand it from the representatives from Chesapeake Bagel...the sign will be on the west side and on the south side. Again, just two sides. Referring to the pylon sign and the monument sign, which you have in your...this evening. We fell within the ordinance. The signs are going to take an identical color scheme as the building itself. Including the final canopy on those signs... The signs are back lit. They'll be strictly identification signs. There will be no special existing... Strictly identification. They will be uniform as I have...unlike the signs on... I guess that pretty much is the detail on the sign ordinance. On the signs themselves. The last issue this evening is the... There again what we felt was an issue when we first met. We kept that down to 14 foot. We kept within the same parameters of the property to both the east and west side of us had met. We looked at...this seems to be the best alternative. We hold our setback off the...and we're asking for the variance this evening on... Short of that, it's pretty clear cut. You've been through the project before... Mancino: Anyone have a question at this point? No questions. Thank you. May I have a motion to open for a public hearing please, and a second. Petemon moved, Joyce seconded to open the public heeding. The public hearing was opened. Mancino: Thank you. This is open for a public hearing. Anyone wishing to come up and give their comments to the Planning Commission at this time. Please do so. Seeing none, may I have a motion to close the public hearing, and a second please. Conrad moved, Joyce seconded to close the public heeding. The public hearing was closed. Mancino: Questions and comments from commissioners. Craig. On both design and the variance. Parking variance. Peterson: The issue that I have before, that we all had on the sidewalk aspect of it I think as Kate mentioned earlier has been mitigated. I don't have any problem with the variance on the setback. And then the sign, it seems like every other meeting we have a sign ordinance variance in front of us. I think we've been pretty consistent by, unless there's a compelling Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 reason and I didn't hear from staff or from the applicant a compelling reason that we need to provide a variance in this case. Over the last few...been through it so I wouldn't think we need to support that variance. Mancino: Okay. Now Kate at this time we don't have a sign variance? Aanenson: Well he wanted the three I guess so. Three sides and it only allows two so. Mancino: Okay. So we would keep it in favor of the two street frontages. Okay. Thank you. Ladd. Conrad: I'm comfortable with the staff report. Mancino: Okay. Bob. Skubic: Me too. Joyce: I have nothing to add. Mancino: Jeff. Farmakes: I'm comfortable with the staff report. One note there. I've noticed that some of the stores that have been developing here now, we're seeing a lot more window signage of large size and in some cases larger than the amount of letters on the wall. That's something that we should be cognizant of, particularly a retailer...as to how much of a demand it's going to be...pedestrian traffic or even the issue of temporary promotion. It's sort of circumventing the restriction to signage for the highway street traffic. And even the office buildings up here, you're seeing additional signage in the windows. Also, for instance Richfield Bank where they had a tenant who was getting additional signage. That has nothing to do with temporary... Anyway, this particular site elevation faces the highway... Something maybe we should look at with the signage ordinance itself. Mancino: Good. I agree with the staff report. I still have some reservations about the, excuse me, the parking lot variance. The 13 feet only because when I went there, Kate I noticed that on the north side, most of the setbacks are 25 feet. It was on the south side, the Holiday station which wasn't and the motel structure was a good 20 feet off the curb. Now I don't know if that was a right-of-way. But I'm assuming that when we do agree to development in areas, that we do go with the ordinance and if we keep saying every time we have redevelopment that everybody's going to have variances, we'll never follow the new Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 ordinance so that's my only concern with that and I'm afraid that that will keep coming up. Otherwise I agree with the staff report. Thank you. May I have a motion please. Conrad: I'd make a motion that the Planning Commission recommends approval of the 13 foot front yard parking lot setback variance and a sign plan review for a 10,000 square foot retail facility, Hiway 5 Centre, with the conditions listed in the staff report, 1 through 10 with the only modification on point number 2 that we add after the, in parens, 24 square feet. We add for each tenant and that's the extent of the motion. Mancino: Is there a second? Joyce: I'll second that. Mancino: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion? Comad moved, Joyce seconded that the Planning Commission recommends approval of the 13 foot front yeaxl pmtdng lot setback vmiance and a sign plan review for a 10,000 square foot retail facility, Hiway 5 Cenhe, with the following conditions: All businesses shall share one monument sign. The area of the sign may not exceed 64 square feet and a height of 8 feet. The sign must maintain a 10 foot setback from the property lines. Wall signs are permitted on no more than 2 street frontages. The total of each wall mounted sign display areas shall not exceed 24 square feet for each tenant. 3. All signs require a separate permit. The signage will have consistency throughout the development and add an architectural accent to the building. 5. Consistency in signage shall relate to color, size, materials and heights. Wall signs shall consist of individual dimensional letters and logos and be back-lit if illuminated. 7. Individual letters may not exceed 2 feet in height. Only the name and logo of the business occupying the unit will be permitted on the sign. Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 One pylon sign is permitted. The area of the sign may not exceed 64 square feet and a height of 16 feet. The sign must maintain a 10 foot setback from the property line. 10. The applicant must obtain a sign permit prior to erecting the sign on site. A detailed sign plan incorporating the method of lighting, acceptable to staff should be provided prior to requesting a building permit. Ail voted in favor and the motion cmaied. PUBLIC HEARING: WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT FOR COULTER BLVD. PHASE H~ IMPROVEMENT PROJECT 93-26B TO FILL 0.72 ACRE TYPE 21 AG/URBAN WETLANDS AND MITIGATE BY CREATING 1.42 ACRES OF TYPE 3 NATURAL WETLAND LOCATED BETWEEN BLUFF CREEK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL AND AUDUBON ROAD~ CITY OF CHANHASSEN. Kate Aanenson plesented the staff ~epo~ on fids item. Mancino: Any questions for staff at this point? Joyce: Kate, just for my edification. Are you saying that, as far as that wetland bank, I'm just a little bit confused. To get the 2:1 you're going to get to add to the Lake Susan project? Is that what you're saying? Aanenson: It's already there. The City, when the City did that project, we enhanced that wetland. Joyce: So you had those credits? Aanenson: The credits are available, correct. So we're just, as a city project we're taking the replacement credits and applying to the bank, exactly like a check and balance. There's only so much credits available. Joyce: Okay. Mancino: Will the culvert be able to be walkable? I mean you know when you put a 60 inch culvert up. Aanenson: I'm glad you brought that up. I meant to mention that because that was an issue as far as the Bluff Creek, as far as wildlife habitat and crossing of the creek. The crossing Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 underneath, if you can point that out Bob. It's right at the top. There's a crossing underneath Highway 5 which has really been a critical crossing point right there...that would allow deer to get underneath. In looking at this, we did go back and carefully evaluate that. Really the critical crossing as far as a deer is really TH 5, where there's more intermittent traffic along the Coulter so, and to make the grades, it didn't work as well but we believe that, as far as wildlife. Mancino: So the deer will go over the road is what you're saying? Aanenson: Probably go over, right. Under TH 5, correct. And there also is another crossing further down, where Bob's pointing that there is another structure that will allow larger wildlife to go underneath at that point. Further down where Bob just point which is, as a part of that, we did receive some ISTEA money to get a structure at that point so there is an undergrade passing at that point. But not closer to the school. Mancino: And when you say bigger wildlife, are you including deer? Aanenson: Yes. Mancino: That big? Oh, okay. Aanenson: Yes. Mancino: Moose? Aanenson: I don't know. Mancino: Okay, thank you. Any other questions for staff at this point? Thank you. May I have a motion to open this for a public hearing and a second please? Slmbic moved, Fmmakes seconded to open the public heming. The public hearing was opened. Mancino: Anyone wishing to address the Planning Commission, please do so at this time. Seeing none, may I have a motion to close the public hearing, and a second please. Joyce moved, Slmbic seconded to close the public heming. The public heating was closed. Mancino: Comments from commissioners. Jeff. Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Farmakes: No other comments. Mancino: Kevin. Joyce: Pretty straight forward. I support the staff I guess. Mancino: Okay. Bob. Skubic: I'm in agreement with the staff report. Mancino: Ladd. Conrad: Staff report's fine. Peterson: I agree. Mancino: I have no comments either. May I please have a recommendation, or a motion. Joyce: I'll make a motion that the planning staff recommends the City Council approve Wetland Alteration Permit//96-6 subject to conditions 1 through 4. Mancino: Thank you. Is there a second? Skubic: Second. Mancino: It has been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion? Joyce moved, Skubic seconded that the Planning Commission recommends approval of Wetland Alteration Permit//96-6, subject to the following conditions: 1. Wetland Conservation Act and the City of Chanhassen Surface Water Management Plan requirements. 2. The applicant receive permits from the jurisdiction agencies such as the Army Corps of Engineers, the DNR, and the Bluff Creek Watershed District. 3. The applicant shall develop a sediment and erosion control plan in accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook. Type III erosion control fencing will be required around the existing wetlands. Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 The applicant review the recommendations of the Bluff Creek Watershed steering committee and incorporate the recommended improvements into this plan. Specifically, determine the best location for the proposed wildlife corridor. All voted in favor and the motion canied. PUBLIC HEARING: COMPREHENSIVE LAND USE PLAN AMENDMENT FROM OFFICE/INDUSTRIAI~ INSTITUTIONAL~ RESIDENTIAL MEDIUM DENS1TY RESIDENTIAL~ LOW DENSITY RESIDENTIAL TO MIXED USE-COMMERCIA~ HIGH DENSITY RESIDENTIAL~ INSTITUTIONAL AND OFFICE; PRELIMINARY PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT FOR UP TO 307~000 SQ. Fr. OF COMMERCIAL/OFFICE BUILDINGS~ 100~000 SQ. Fr. OF INSTITUTIONAL BUILDINGS~ AND 322 DWELLING UNITS; REZONING FROM IOP AND RSF TO PUD~ PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT; PRELIMINARY PLAT FOR 13 LOTS AND 3 OUTLOTS AND PUBLIC RIGHT-OF-WAY; WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO FILL AND EXCAVATE WETLANDS ON SITE; VACATION OF RIGHT-OF- WAY AND EASEMENTS; ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT WORKSHEET (EAW) FINDINGS~ AND INDIRECY SOURCE PERMIT REVIEW FOR THE VILLAGES ON THE PONDS PROJECT ON 66.12 ACRES LOCATED SOUTH OF HWY 5 BETWEEN GREAT PLAINS BLVD. AND MARKET BOULEVARD~ VILLAGES ON THE PONDS. LOTUS REALTY SERVICES. Public P~esent: Name Add~ess Mary Bernier Martin Fajdetich Roberta & Bob Armstrong Dick & Pat Hamblin Linda Anderson Dave Nickolay Tammy Harris Gregory Larsen John Seibert Clark Cummings Bob Savard Austin Ward 8155 Grandview Road 8100 Marsh Drive 8400 Great Plains Blvd. 340 Sinnen Circle 8210 Grandview Road 8500 Tigua Circle 8408 Great Plains Blvd. 8151 Grandview Road 13941 Vinewood Lane 8019 Dakota Avenue 8080 Marsh 226 Summit Avenue, St. Paul Bob Generous plesented the staff ~epot~ on this item. Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Joyce: Is that because you have a perspective retail user that you increased this or is this just? I'm sorry, am ! interrupting here? Aanenson: No, no. That's a good point of discussion. We spent a lot of time on this. We're doing something that's very different and we're concerned about that, in order to make it a village you have to have components that people want to live there. What staffs original proposal was that we really have the residential component with it. In order to make it exciting for the residential component we really felt we needed to have services that are convenient for residential. Whether it's a dry cleaners, a bakery, those sort of things. So we're concerned that if the market says we're going to put all big boxes in there, does that entice people to live there with something that closes down at 9:00 or 10:00 or something like that. So what we want to encourage, is that we really have a mix. If you remember when the applicant originally came in they were showing pictures...sort of exciting, kind of small specialty type shops. While we don't want to discourage some of the larger, maybe a larger, a use that may have different, some different departments or components within it. We want to make sure we've got what looks like smaller shops, if it's a bigger user, but we also want to make sure that there's a variety of the mix of enough units that it is an exciting place. A village concept. So really to be true to the village concept, we're concerned about it and I'm not sure that this is exactly where we want it but we're trying. This is where we spent a lot of time with the applicants trying to get some better definition here. To really make it a village, how do you accomplish that? Joyce: So I can visualize this, how big is Target compared to this? I mean how many 20,000 square foot buildings can you put in Target? Can you put 3 or 4 or something like that? Aanenson: Sure. Joyce: Okay. That's what I'm thinking. So it's 20,000 feet is not huge? Aanenson: Right. I think the applicants agree that that was a reasonable number that we kind of compromised on that as a number but I guess we were concerned about some other larger discount sort of thing that may want to be there. And we're not saying that's necessarily bad. We want to make sure though that we've got the right mix. If it's all large discount, then we haven't got the right mix to make it a village. Mancino: Well and it also, per the City Council conditions from December 5, 1995 it says, 25. No big box users shall be permitted within the development. Very cut and clear as a condition. Okay. 10 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Bob Generous continued with his staff ~epo~. Mancino: Bob, so what you're saying is, of the 322 residential units, there are a total of 322 proposed. 50% of those, or 161 would be rental units. Out of the 161 rental units, 35%, or 56 of those units would be affordable. 50% would be owner occupied or 161 units. And 80 units of those would be affordable, within the whole complex. Generous: Correct. Audience: Can you define affordable? Mancino: Well, we'll wait until we get further on in this process. Thank you, we will. Bob Generous continued with his staff ~epo~. Mancino: I think that we are going to have questions and comments as we go through the presentation by the applicant, and we will do that in stages. And then you'll be able to hear our questions and comments and then we'll open it up for a public hearing. Can you take one minute Bob though to tell us what affordable housing is from, the owner occupied housing is $115,000.00. Generous: Based on 1995 dollars and that's established by the Metropolitan Council. Mancino: So when you say based on 1995 dollars, that means with inflation it goes up. Generous: We believe so, yes. Mancino: Every year it's indexed to the. Generous: We don't know exactly what they're indexing it to. We'll get that from them. Mancino: Okay. So it is housing that is priced at $115,000.00 or lower. If it is a rental, affordable housing, it is $650.00? Generous: $625.00. Mancino: $625.00 for a one room apartment. I mean one bedroom apartment. Generous: It's silent on that. It just says for a dwelling unit. 11 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Mancino: It just says what? Generous: Per dwelling unit. Mancino: Per dwelling unit. $625.00. Generous: So I imagine an efficiency would meet that. A one bedroom. Potentially a two bedroom. Mancino: Thank you. Does the applicant wish to address? Before we do that, I'm sorry. Excuse me. There's one other thing I'd like to do first and that is, I'd like to have Dave Hempel get up and talk a little bit about the road on the east side. What's going to happen to Grandview Road and Great Plains Boulevard, and utilities and how that is going to affect the residential property to the east. The existing. Hempel: Thank you Madam Chair. Planning Commissioners. I'd like to show the audience I guess the existing configuration of Grandview Road in relationship to the existing conditions out there. Grandview Road is a private road. It's gravel. Gravel street and the shaded... Mancino: Can you show us where that is? Where are we looking? Hempel: It's approximately in this alignment. It serves I believe 6 or 8 residential homes in the area. The area does have future capabilities to further subdivide once sewer and water is provided. The area for the most part is on well and septic. There are a couple residents I believe on the city sewer and water at this time and the adjacent development to the east, the Hidden Valley. What I'll do is overlay the proposed development on top of that to give you some sense of how it fits with the existing neighborhood. Lake Drive East is on the east side here there will be a full intersection with eventually a couple of stop signs for traffic control. The intent to service Grandview in the future is through a public street which would deadend at the property line in this location here. We worked with the applicant to reduce this cul-de- sac parameter down to a 25 foot radius to minimize disruptions in the area because eventually this street will become, most likely a public street in this area here when further subdivision occurs. We're also looking at it as a secondary emergency access to the southern part of the Grandview neighborhood to St. Hubert's Church parking lot. That is emergency access only. Utility service to service the Grandview neighborhood is in two areas. What I'll call the northern part of Grandview and the southern part of Grandview. What delineates it is a high ridge or an elevation change which requires the sewer to be serviced from the south, to take the southern part of the neighborhood and a sewer line from the north to provide service to the northerly part. With this development they will be extending sewer and water service to the easterly property line on the development for further extension into the Grandview 12 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 neighborhood. When the neighborhood wishes to have that extended, it would require a petition to the city requesting a utility extension to the neighborhood, at which time a feasibility study would be conducted which would generate project costs, preliminary assessment rolls, etc. Mancino: Now does everybody have to? Is it a majority? Let's say one house wants to hook up to sewer and water. Can they petition and get that or does it need to be a majority of the homeowners? Hempel: It does need to be a majority of the property owners. The benefitting property owners. It is up to City Council to review any petition and decide whether or not there is ample percentage of property owners to warrant the project. Mancino: Okay. So we already have some there that are hooked up, and some aren't. Some have their own septic and well. Hempel: That's correct. Mancino: Does the gravel road remain so that all we're going to do is be upgrading the Great Plains and then the little turn around? Or is the whole. Hempel: The part of the street which would be upgraded with this development to city standards with the blacktop, curb and gutter and storm sewer infrastructures, would be what I'll call Lake Drive. They have listed Lake Drive and then this part of what I'll call Grandview. The remaining, the access here would then be converted over to this location here. Mancino: Do the property owners, are they assessed for any of this? Hempel: There's no assessments for these improvements in conjunction with this project. Mancino: Thank you. Hempel: Bob made a good point I guess. There is, with the existing Hidden Valley subdivision, a sewer and water line was extended at the end of Dakota with the intent of extending up into the Grandview neighborhood. Reviewing the topographic, and vegetation in the area, there's a ravine that comes down in this location here that would be impacted by extending sewer and water up into that area and that's why staff came up with an alternative alignment for the sanitary sewer to service the neighborhood. Around the back side of St. Hubert's School. This area here is already all being graded and leveled off so there would be 13 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 no further vegetation lost. It would require additional, approximately 200 feet of sewer line to be installed to make that alternative work. Mancino: Thank you. Does the applicant wish to address the Planning Commission at this time please. Brad Johnson: Sure. Madam Chairman, members of the Planning Commission, my name is Brad Johnson with Lotus Realty. We represent the owners of the property, the Ward family and here this evening are Bill Ward and Austin Ward...so they are here to probably more listen. As part of the presentation this evening, we'll have a number of different people participating in the presentation. Most of which you have met but I'd like to introduce. The presenter will be Vernelle Clayton. Mika Milo who is on the architectural side. Dean Olson and possibly Beth Kunkel coming from the site side. The environmental. In addition to that, we have representatives of St. Hubert's Church here and the Americlnn which was proposing both which will come and follow us with a site plan and building reviews...but down the line and they of course can answer any questions you may have specifically about the site plans that... This evening I'd just like to make some brief comments...and then finally, we have some I guess concerns about the staff report. I think we're doing pretty good. I think it's around 50. We may have...general comments about that but we're concerned how it's development and Vernelle will summarize those, and everybody else's comments. One of the things that this project has probably been one of the most thought out that we've been involved in. We've done a couple other projects in the community that primarily have been done with the HRA, not with the Planning Commission. We've also had an enormous amount of neighborhood input. Staff input. I think we've taken to heart things that the City Council recommended and I want to read something from Steve Covey because you know, with all the turmoil we go through in this redevelopment business, we all have visions and everybody's vision isn't always the same thing. It's kind of a difficult problem to fit it all together and I think we can actually work in that process so I'm going to read this with the idea that it just kind of says where we're at...doing a good job of it, to my way of thinking...the only difference is, the essence of synergy, the mental and emotional and psychological difference is between the people, and the key to...those differences is to realize that all people see the world not as it is, but as they are. In other words, each of us looks at it differently. And each of us, each person has their own input and the key to probably development and anything like this is to listen to the differences and combine all those differences and in fact you may come up with a good project. If all of us never listened to somebody else, then in fact we may end up with what we think is right and not necessarily what is right. I think that's the essence of what he's trying to say and I think, I had a number of meetings with the neighbors. Had a number of meetings with the various community groups and I really want to compliment everybody on what we've been trying to accomplish. We've been trying to translate this vision not into the vision of the Ward's or the vision of the...vision of just the 14 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 city, but the vision of a group of people that have been working on that towards that end. The project has about 7 or 8 key components that we've all addressed periodically. One is that the retail will support the existing downtown retail. Number two is that we're trying to preserve the site characteristics as much as possible. That was the trees, slopes, and the wetlands. We want to provide a suitable buffer between the residential development to the east and this particular development. We want to discourage traffic out of this project onto East Lake Drive. That was one of the big concerns that the neighbors have had is...do our site plan to eliminate that. Provide affordable housing components. One of the pressures put on the City and a lot of the businesses here is that we don't have affordable housing in Chanhassen. It's one of the things we took upon ourselves to see if we could actually do that. We've done it very creatively. Whether it's financable, we'll find out but we've already put in here some concepts that are far reaching. One of the things that we've tried to do is incorporate St. Hubert's Church and school into the community. We've tried to take a project that potentially could have used up 80 acres, or 30 acres of the community's land and build expensive things and...and place them on 7 and 10 acres. Sort of downtown area. Once again what's found. I think we've done a good job on that thanks to everybody. We didn't want to have any big box users. To me a big box is 40,000 to 50,000 square feet and we have a lot...And finally, we're mass transit friendly that would include mass transit in this project and we could have as many as 100 buses a day coming through here...but this would be a major hub for the community and it's all the things that I think that we've added and put into the project. I'd like then to have Dale come up front and go through his group of,.. Vernelle Clayton: Actually it's Dean. Hi. with Lotus and for your convenience, to be have with us and those that are going to be My name's Vernelle Clayton. As you know I'm clear to follow along...a list of the items that we shown to... Mancino: Vernelle, do you happen to have enough copies for the public to see? Or a couple to hand out. We can share up here. Aanenson: Dave's going to run some more. Mancino: Okay. Dave will be running some off so that you'll get a copy. So on our list is first order of presentation is that BRW is going to show the existing conditions as they exist today. Number one. And then two, go into site physiography. And three, tree canopy. If you could pass those out. Thank you Dave. Dean Olson: Your Honor, members of the Planning Commission. My name is Dean Olson. I'm with BRW. I'm a planner and we have been retained by Lotus Realty to do the environmental and engineering aspects of the project. As Brad mentioned earlier, Beth Kunkel is with me who's a wetland specialist with our firm and she can answer any specific 15 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 questions regarding wetlands. First I'll go over the existing conditions for the site. North on the plan is here. This is Highway 5. This is Highway 101 which cuts through the site. The blue outline that you see here represents the proposed alignment for TH 101, which of all our plans which you'll see in the future here take into account that new alignment for TH 101 so. You can see how that cuts through this marsh area in the southern portion of the site as a temporary alignment. Also running through the site is Great Plains Boulevard which ties in down at this... Adjacent to the property on the west side is the Rosemount facility which is zoned industrial and then also the residential area to the east over here and small commercial area which has the VFW and I believe a gas station in this comer. This is Lake Susan in this corner and Rice Marsh here. The grayish blue areas represent existing wetland areas on the site. A major one being adjacent to Highway 5 here. Another one in the center of the site and several others at the periphery portions of the site. Small one on the west side of Highway 101 and then of course the larger buffered area which is associated with Rice Marsh Lake down here. We do have also one wetland that exists up here in this comer of the site as well. The existing trail system that the city has runs along the west side of TH 101 and ties into the trail system that runs parallel to both Rice Marsh and Lake Susan down here. And also the larger green areas represent canopy cover on the site as it pre-exists current today. Next, talk about the site physiography. Again, north is to my side of this plan. Both Rice Marsh and Lake Susan are on the south...site. Bob mentioned earlier that there's an existing ridge that runs through the site. That ridge is approximately at this location here and that ridge elevation is generally at an elevation of about 961. The grade from there drops to the north slightly into this darker green area which is at an elevation of about 950. And then it also falls to the south pretty continuously across the site, with the exception of a fairly level area in this portion and a couple high points here and here. This one being at about 949 or 950 and 943 here. By the time we get to this portion of the site, we're down into an elevation about 30 feet lower than the ridge line here. At about 930 in here and then all the way down to approximately an elevation of 900 here and down to finally 880 for the lower marsh area associated down here. The knoll that Bob was talking about earlier is at this point and that's an elevation of about 905, which puts it at approximately 25 feet at it's highest point higher than the surrounding marsh area. Also, a significant high point or the highest point on the site actually is on this eastern edge, which is adjacent to the residential area. That high point is at about 970, 971 at it's highest point. And it again falls to either side. Next I'd like to show you some of the existing tree canopy cover on the site, and if I could put this one. Do you have any questions of the first set of boards? Mancino: Excuse me Dean, are you going to go into the, what's going to happen to the new TH 101. Where the existing trail on the east and west side meet. I mean is it going to go under the new TH 101 or what's going to happen to the existing trail that right now.,. 16 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Dean Olson: Right now, it's my understanding that the city is proposing a connection beneath TH 101. I don't know at this time because the engineering documents for this portion of TH 101 are not complete. It's a little bit unclear at this time exactly how that trail connection will happen, as well as how this portion of TH 101 will traverse this lower portion of the site down there. So that is something that we are waiting to see. Mancino: So you will have to wait before any final approvals are given to see what's happening with TH 101 in that area? Dean Olson: Yes. There are some issues that need to be resolved regarding TH 101... Mancino: Okay, thank you. Any other questions? Dean Olson: I might as well keep working with the board on my side. Again, Highway 5 is here. TH 101 runs through here. The wider portion is the improved portion of TH 101 to this point and then the old alignment is here. This edge of the tree canopy here really represents the western most edge of the realignment of TH 101 as it would come through this area so that realignment will cut through this canopy area here and that knoll that you were talking about just earlier somewhere in this location. We do have a tree survey which was done as a part of our work on the project. It does identify approximately 460 existing trees that are 12 inch in caliper or larger, regardless of what species the trees are. And you have that I believe... What this represents is an aerial photograph which we took from a 1994 fly over by the Department of Natural Resources. And per the City's requirements, we used this to determine the amount of existing canopy cover on the site. And the white line, if you can see it on the camera, around the outer edges, represents the property line. Approximately property line and the new residential area just to the east of the site. The Rosemount property here. That existing ridge line that we talked about...is really this portion in here and you can see that it does not have very much vegetation. Most of the vegetation is concentrated around the wetland area here. Also some pockets associated with wetland over in this area. And then really the greater concentration of the canopy cover is on the southern portion of the site. What each of these figures represents are percentages of canopy cover in those various areas. We determined through looking at shadow lines for the trees, and then also the city's requirement is that we take into consideration both sapling trees, which could potentially grow to approximately a 20 foot canopy tree, as well as mature trees on the site. We made these determinations in terms of amount of canopy cover so. We do have areas which we determined to be 100%, basically here, here, in this area, in here and then again down on the southern portion of the site. This being the least amount of canopy cover at 5%. In working through the calculations for tree preservation we came up with approximately 26 acres of existing canopy cover, which is about 42% of the site. And that again does include both the saplings and the overstory, existing overstory trees. As I mentioned earlier, the tree survey 17 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 identified 12 inch caliper trees and larger. Of those there were a total of 464 trees. After looking at the tree preservation requirements, in working through the calculations, it was determined that 10.4 acres of canopy cover must remain on the site as a part of this development. Our project...canopy cover preserved and remain on the site. Again as Bob said, the majority of that will be the southern portion of the site from the ridge line south. The distance between the 10.4 and the 6.1 requires that we provide 226 trees on site to make up for the loss of... Mancino: How many are you proposing? Dean Olson: Total trees? I haven't honestly taken a count but...150 or so. And also being considered... I'd like to next talk about the site constraints. Here is sort of a synopsis of how the city's zoning requirements affect this site. Again, Highway 5 is here. TH 101 is as it runs through the site. This is the proposed alignment for TH 101 that you're seeing here. The existing alignment is over in this area. There's a number of things that affect the site, in terms of the zoning. First off a shoreland ordinance which affects the setbacks from Rice Marsh Lake as well as Lake Susan and those differ because Rice Marsh Lake is a naturalized lake versus a recreational lake for Lake Susan up here. Lake Susan requires that we provide a 75 foot setback for both buildings and parking. And going around Rice Marsh Lake, we need to provide 150 foot setback for both... Those setback lines are determined by the high water level for both of those lakes. This also affects the impervious surface, and this red line here represents the shoreland zone from the lakes into the site in both cases. That is 1,000 foot distance from both those high water marks. Impervious surface on the site in essence switches...medium and high density residential even though the maximum of 35% of impervious surface on the site. Within that shoreland itself and 25% if it's a commercial type of development within the shoreland boundary. Also along Highway 101 we're required to have a 50 foot setback on either side of the right-of-way line. Also the green areas that you see here, both along Highway 101 and along this edge of the site are the required areas for buffer zones for the city ordinance, We've already talked with Mr. and Mrs. Savard who live adjacent to the site actually in this location. We've talked with Mrs. Anderson who lives down in this area adjacent to the proposed location of the church and school. And have heard their concerns regarding their desires for additional buffering and plantings along their property lines and we intend to work with them in that respect. We will work also with the architects for the church in attempting to maintain as much of the existing vegetation along .the Anderson's property line as possible because they are extremely close to the property line. Mancino: Dean, will you speak to that more when you get to the landscape plan? Dean Olson: Yes. 18 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Mancino: Thank you. Dean Olson: There are also a couple of bluff zones that exist on the site. There is a lot of areas which have severe grade changes or...grade changes but there are really only two locations on the site and those being adjacent to Lake Susan over here, which is actually qualified as a bluff zone, and those areas cannot be disturbed in any manner. And we also need to provide, I believe it's a 30 foot setback from the top of those...along those areas. The other thing that comes into effect is the Highway 101, or excuse me, Highway 5 corridor placed in this portion of the site...HC1 zone which is highway corridor 1 zone. It has some effects on the building setbacks along that line. We need to maintain a 50 foot building setback. There's also along this edge a 45 foot existing... And next I will talk to the preliminary plat. Bob showed it once earlier so I'll try to breeze through it. Highway 5 is still on this side. Obviously this is the TH 101 boulevard. There are two blocks proposed with the project. Block 1 being this major eastern portion of the property, east of TH 101 excuse me. And then also Block 2 being this portion, which is the west portion of TH 101. Within those two, Block 2 would have two lots and then the southern most portion would be outlot. And then also an outlot on the southern portion down here, as well as outlots through both Main Street and...being proposed as Lake Drive going through the site as well as around the existing wetlands area. And within this block we're proposing... And then finally, the landscape plan...provide at least 208 replacement trees to accommodate the loss of...and we're proposing a great deal of those be along on both Lake Drive here and Main Street that comes through the center portion of the site here. We will also be providing a fair amount of tree canopy along this portion of the roadway here. Mancino: Excuse me, what is that roadway? Dean Olson: It's actually an extension of the parking lot. It will serve as storefront parking for a lot of the stores along here. So it really serves as parking for a fair portion of the shops along... Mancino: Okay, but it will have a name to the street? Dean Olson: We haven't put a name on it as of yet. Mancino: I put St. Hubert's Ave. I had to call it something. Dean Olson: The retail and residential for the property is actually through this zone. We're proposing a special paving in this area, which is highly concentrated pedestrian area, even though there's some of these areas around here. Here you see the entry points to the center portion of the site would be at this location and at this location on...drive and then the 19 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 southern portion, excuse me really the main street feel as far as a plaza in front of the St. Hubert's Church. We're proposing we'll have a fountain in the center of it. And then from there, all the way up to another sort of town square in this location, which extends even further around the water front on village pond. We also need to provide as a part of the code requirement for the city, to place buffering around the existing wetland areas so what we see in here, in the yellow areas will also happen around other wetland areas on the site. Via a buffer zone that will vary from 0 to 20 feet in width around the edges...probably be naturalized plantings. Grasses and so forth. We're also looking at of course the buffering along the edges, as Bob indicated earlier. We will provide that buffering along this zone. We'll have to do both the combination of overstory trees and shrubbery and...along this edge. Even more importantly, along the eastern edge of the property here, particularly where you're coming very close to the property line here, which...a significant grade change between the edge of the parking lot and the existing grades in the residential area adjacent to it. We're proposing that a series of tiered retaining walls in this area be...and also intensify plant material, both at the top and all the way down that hillside for screening. And obviously the greatest impact...plant material that would cover those portions of that hill or retaining walls adjacent to the neighboring property owners. As I said earlier, we met with Mr. and Mrs. Savard who actually live down in this area. The new road alignment would be coming a little bit closer to their home so we'll be working with them to include an increased plant material in this area. And also that area that's adjacent to the Anderson's property here, they've got about an existing 30 foot...tree canopy cover in here that we'd like to work and save as much as possible so that these... Mancino: I have a couple questions. One is, and if other commissioners do at this time. My view shed from Highway 5 is as I go down Highway 5 I see a pond and I see parking. How is parking going to be screened? Dean Olson: Well grades, the grade is going to be fairly flat through here. It is going to open up. You won't have that much stuff in here but the highway is higher along this edge so you'll see across this opening. Right now we're proposing to plant along the edges of the pond area. We also want to keep some of the views open to the retail across the front here so it's going to be a balance between both plant material and this is going to be retail...in that zone. Mancino: Are you going to use shrubs as walls around parking? Dean Olson: We can certainly do that, yes. We can provide hedges around these edges here to...still allow us to provide views to the retail. 20 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Joyce: I have a similar question. You're looking out from...point. Will you be able to see Highway 5? Dean Olson: Oh yes. Joyce: That wetlands area will not have vegetation high enough? Dean Olson: No it won't. The existing wooded area that we're trying to preserve is in this zone here. The wetlands here will probably be not too unlike what they are right now with the exception of taking out the trees. Mancino: But there could be some berming added to the east and west side. Dean Olson: Along this edge. We are pretty tight along this edge. Mancino: Well what about on the northwest side of the parking lot? Right here in some of these areas that are right in front of the parking lot. There could be added berming. Dean Olson: Yep. As a matter of fact, when we talked to staff yesterday, they made that very suggestion that we look at trying to provide some berming in this area along the parking lot. We can certainly look at the same thing up here. Mancino: Okay. So that when we see the site plans come in, we will be able to see the shrub rows around the parking lots, etc. I mean we need to see the detailed landscaping around the parking lots when we get each site plan. Overall landscaping. When you have a taller building, will the boulevard trees be bigger as proportionately to the building? Dean Olson: That's something that we kind of talked about amongst ourselves and exactly how we approached that with number one, trying to get that street tree feel through the main portions of the site and still not block a lot of the...for the signage and so forth. One way we may get to do that is to do something like...canopy but still allow shade. There's a number of ways that we can get it to happen. Primarily what we're looking at in the overstory trees, rather than...as street trees, we do have approximately a 14 to 15 feet of width between the building bases and the grade and the curb line in that area so we do have a fair amount of room for both pedestrian movements. We have some on grade plantings beneath the trees and also tree canopy above. Mancino: Okay. And what about, I didn't see in the landscape plan anything about bunches and planter boxes and all those wonderful public gardens. 21 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Dean Olson: Yeah, I believe actually as a part of the guidelines, the...guidelines, we encourage things such as flower boxes, window boxes, free standing planters. Potted plants in the fronts of buildings. Anything that...to that sort of character. So yes, we're encouraging a lot of plant material at the base of buildings... Benches and so forth will be provided obviously around the city square. Probably on both main street and along some of these store fronts here. We have made an attempt also to provide, with the additional amount of space that we have in the fronts of the shops here, between the curb line and the adjacent building to provide some cut outs for plant material as well so that... Mancino: Will there be any sort of courtyard effect? I mean you have some of these as being apartments and people will obviously be entering the back. Will there be some sort of a courtyard? Some sort of plantings in the back for the residential that will be over the commercial. Dean Olson: We've got in a couple of cases, previously we had discussions of, Dave talked about it here...and really as a part of those pass throughs, and we'll talk about it in the architecture phase, where the access to the parking lot...on the upper floors of the buildings. We're trying to get as much plant material at those entry points, wherever they may be, whether it be here and/or here. Same thing over here, at entry points to the apartments above...at those locations. Also, we're going to try to provide as much plant material as possible to get that courtyard, although this is the town square feeling, although this is the one area that really provides a large open space for the...so typically in European settings and so forth, there are a lot of open spaces... Mancino: Tell me what goes on around the pond? I mean usually again in European settings when you have a pond, there's a promenade around the pond, etc. What's going to, when I walk down main street and I get to the pond and obviously you'll be able to see Highway 5. But why do I want to go down there? What's going to draw me besides the water? What else is down there? Dean Olson: Well we obviously have to provide first vehicular access through this area and what we try to do with the paving is to...cars and extend the paving for main street all the way out to here and here. In addition to what's on the driving surface as well as providing some special paving around the walking surfaces here and then the actual pier which will extend out into the pond and then carrying this planting beds and/or seating areas. There's plenty of room in here to provide both planting and seating along the base of that...at the pond edge. There are opportunities for individuals to gather along that edge of the pond. Mancino: And also from that edge, this would be staff suggesting that there be a landscaped walkway in that parking lot area to get to the motel. 22 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Dean Olson: Yes. Along here. This is the area where staff was mentioning that I take another look at expanding or keeping that existing wetlands intact...and possibly moving this facility in further into the site and...along that edge from this comer of TH 101 and TH 5 where realistically a lot of people will be coming from. Downtown area and business so across Highway 5 so that sense of entry both along here as well as a stronger connection of the hotel entry as part of the... And this side, the primary connection, the pedestrian connection... Mancino: And that will be a paved sidewalk. Dean Olson: Yes. Mika will talk a little bit more about pedestrian and vehicular circulation for the project. Mancino: Okay. Have you also look at it overall in relationship to our existing downtown? How do we get from there to the existing downtown? With the amount of traffic, from the EAW study that's going to be. Dean Olson: That's a difficult issue because of obviously Highway 5. Also the fact that you do have a pedestrian street crossing which is to the east of this site which in some respects is a little bit distant from this project. Our hopes are that, as a part of this development, this will spur additional improvements in this area to the east which will also encourage movement by pedestrians through that zone...pedestrian crossing to the east. It's difficult to get any sort of a low grade crossing through Highway 5 here. I think because of the grades and because of the amount of wetlands and the water in these areas on this side of Highway 5...so your real access is where it exists now, over here and possibly looking at some way of improving that pedestrian crossing across TH 5 and upgrade that, as well as trying to bring people across here and further down here. Realistically it may be a safer... Again, Mika will talk to some of the pedestrian circulation. That's really what we see as the primary access point into downtown...pedestrian system that crosses here and moves... Mancino: Okay. I'm not sure Dean if you're the person I should ask this to but about the mitigation of some of the traffic. Volumes of traffic that will, that were in the EAW report. Are you the person that would talk about that? Dean Olson: ...I personally am not...traffic. Mancino: Thank you. Before we get into architectural, I just have a couple questions. Unless anyone else has other. 23 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Conrad: Yeah, I have one Madam Chair. What's your vision for that pond? The main pond, pond 2000 or whatever. And when I say. Dean Olson: Ice rink in the winter. Conrad: Yeah, there you go. I like that. But seriously you know, we talk about, when we talk about wetlands, I think we all go back and we think there's reeds but this is a holding basin. Dean Olson: Yes it is. Conrad: And so again, I'm curious what the vision is for how this looks. It's a real instrumental part of the whole design and just to let you know, I'm not out there trying to protect the cattails right now. I'm trying to figure out how this wetland functions as part of the overall design of what the vision is for it. It's not a very good looking wetland right now, and it's going to be improved no matter what we do but I guess, again I'd like to hear a clear vision of how this fits with the community that you're designing. Dean Olson: Well first off, we are trying to preserve as much of the wetland as possible on the site because there are so many, we are removing some of them so we want to try to save as much of this as possible. We think that's, I believe that's part of the reason staff was suggesting...along the western edge. Originally when I looked at this, I had hoped that we could maintain as much of this obviously, this upland vegetation as possible and possibly do something similar on this side which really sets it as a framework for what's happening at the core of the study on the pond. On the pond itself, I would hope that we can improve that pedestrian circulation around the edges first off, and obviously the connections from the city core to this. We really need to provide some sort of buffering along the edges...access to the pond. Conrad: Are you looking to make it look natural? Or are you looking to make it more of a pond? Of a pretty pond. Dean Olson: First off a pretty pond. This portion of it would be dredged out, cleaned up and contain water. It would be a "pretty pond". Joyce: You could boat on it or something. It'd be almost functional, right? Dean Olson: Well part of the actual image of the project is the main sign which will sit in this location so there is a lot of emphasis on views across that pond to that location. One thing that may be considered is an aerator or a fountain in the center of it as well but it will 24 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 be, it will function as retention for the site. With a fair portion of the drainage for this zone is going to go into that pond so there's a need to keep it clean, yes. Conrad: I don't think you still answered my question. And maybe somebody else will. It's not a catch question at all. I'm just trying to see how it fits. Is it a natural? Are we going to let weeds grow up along the edges or are we going to keep it pretty clear? When we dredge it, are we going to keep that a clean edge type pond and one of a picturesque versus a natural. That's my question. Mika Milo: The answer is the first one. To have it more picturesque. To have that look... reflect what can be the front face of our development and...keeping it more clean and to function more as a decorative element. So while it does have the function of a retention, the idea of that pond as a central feature as a reflecting mirror of the village, is to have a decorative function. A clean edge that will...walk around and kind of a central feature that will be like a... Aanenson: Can I answer it from the staff's perspective? Conrad: Sure. Aanenson: The way we saw it, and I think actually...when we first looked at this as part of the wetland we were concerned about the same thing and we went back and looked at when Bill Morrish did the Highway 5 study. The view and the view corridors when you drive through Chanhassen, what are your impressions? The wetlands. There's certainly water is a feature that the city values and the trees. So when they first approached us about using this as a feature, we were concerned about what that meant but while Mika's answered the question that it does have some clean parts to it. We also, that's why the staff went back and said we also want to have kind of the natural component to it too. So it actually does have kind of duo. It provides a perspective when you come across water, which reflects what Chanhassen is about. And it's preserving some of the edges, which Dean was speaking about. The woods and the natural features so it really has both. We see it as Mika indicated, it does provide the reflective kind of vision going across, catches your eye looking, but also has a natural component too and that's why I guess we were concerned about making sure that we still kind of maintained that natural edges to it so it looked like... Conrad: I'm not sure that that's what belongs here. Aanenson: Well we're allowing it to be altered. A significant part to be altered. 25 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Conrad: I sure think so. Again, but I was looking for the vision and I just kept having a hard time envisioning a real natural wetland here. I think it is a focal point. It is not a good wetland right now. It's not attractive. It's a holding basin but then I started thinking, well are we clear? Is it functioning as a pond that filters and I think it's holding. It's not filtering as much as it's holding so I'm not sure of the purpose of the reeds and grasses and whatever, so again I'm not a scientist on this but my gut feeling was that in the setting was more of a pretty pond than natural. And that's just a personal feel on this and maybe a design team has this all under control but I was curious how it fits. How it was envisioned. Mancino: Any other questions? Conrad: No. Mika Milo: Members of the Chanhassen Planning Commission, my name is Mika Milo...and we have been retained to...to create the Villages on the Pond. A vision for the expansion of downtown Chanhassen and...months that we spent on that. We went to a number of segments and very complexities that surround the plan and came up finally... We were guided with three main goals. Number one is that we create a community, a mixed community that provides the opportunity of the same place to live, to work, to eat, entertain, recreate... And number two is to provide a...extension of downtown...already exists of Chanhassen, but to extend...retail into the whole complex area of the downtown Chanhassen. And number three is to, number three goal, which is not really a priority but...that we preserve the natural face of the site as much as possible. Preserve the use of...so that development fits really well and strengthens the village...And with this in mind, with these three goals in mind we went into the planning and...concept of the early...century American town that you've seen around and that's also traditional, neo-traditional planning concepts that would allow these to be accomplished. All three main goals that I just mentioned. This would allow...as much as the American...earlier in this century. Also the European towns that you can see across...And my recent...Europe that I just came back that was to a great extent devoted to the study of the situation that we also have here on Village on the Ponds, is serving as a further confirmation that the direction we are going, I really feel comfortable we are going to the right direction. I believe that we are going to have something that works well for the city...live here in the United States but in the same time preserve and maintain these values that we have had before but we started to lose in recent decades to the typical suburban sprawl that...that the car is just one mode of transportation. With this in mind we...concept that is based on the... framework that we established as the...to use as a consultation as well. And to accommodate various use...that would be strongly pedestrian oriented streets...opportunities for biking, pedestrians and the car. But the cars would be only as...another means of transportation. In general the cars are strong in the surrounding area where we have the streets but as they are close to the village, they get more and more slowed down. Stopped so to speak. They have 26 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 to feel like they are part of the overall...The car is just parked and...go 50-60 miles per hour around on these highways but this is the area not for the car to go 60 or...40 mph but they have to slow down because this is a special area. This is an area where we'll live. Where we will sit. Where we talk. Where we entertain and so on and shop and therefore the car is just a means that we come to that area. We park the car or we maybe short term park on the street but...shop and come out and...parking areas behind the building and so that way we make sure that...are going to provide the framework for all these multiple functions to happen. The buildings are mostly going...go along shops...but in any case these buildings are framing the streets and on the front sides of the buildings we are allowing for limited parking. Parallel or diagonal parking, while on the back side of that we have a majority of parking. In some special situations where there may be some festivities or some special events that happen, the event can park the cars on the fringe areas and use them, turn that main street completely into a pedestrian zone for a certain segment of time for some special events like centennial or...or some other festivities. So the streets have been an important concept to us. ...but we are also allowing the car and modem amenities...so we are allowing plenty of parking...so we are making a combination of what we see as traditional town...or the European towns and the modern technology that we have... This is the challenge for us to make that work and make that become... Second important...side of street is that we have, that we have secured that...that allows that use of...In the diagrams that we prepared for that indicate that we have vehicle circulation and the pedestrian circulation. And they reflect that what I just said. Vehicle circulation indicates this strong circulation around these highways, TH 101 and TH 5 and indicates that as you come along the Lake Drive at these entrance points, the traffic tends to slow down and the dotted line with the street indicates that is the slow traffic for the cars departing... We enter the parking...from these streets as well as the connection for the Grandview loop around that... Along the TH 101 we are going to have three communication nodes that will be intersections as we go East Lake Drive here. As we go into the...going to the east and also to the main street... The pedestrian circulation. While the vehicle circulation...is weaken and reduced down and we use...of slowing down that circulation and... In the core area of offices and pedestrian circulation, this is the strength of the pedestrian areas... Th'e pedestrian is the...in that area and the car is just a guest. What we are showing with this diagram is that pedestrians are not only on the street but they also have a very strong connection opportunities to all regional trails...along Lake Susan and Marsh Lake. Go south to the Chanhassen Hills and Rosemount and to the bridge, pedestrian bridge here. There are also these two crossings to the downtown, as has been mentioned before... Highway 101 and also here on the eastern portion as well. So the...pedestrian circulation and the car circulation and...but it indicates that we have the uses both vertically and horizontally. We did not mix just horizontally. That means here is the office. Here is the church. Here is the retail. Here is, they are not separate uses like that...horizontally mixed but we also have vertical...to be used that the building itself contains the garage...retail on the first floor. The office for the second floor and then the residential on top of it. So...vertical and horizontal 27 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 mix that we have here, that we provide opportunities for like cycle housing or for all this synergy and all this...uses that are going to make that.., maybe I should be a little more specific about the units...St. Hubert's Church. This is the residential...up to four story high. ...Lake Susan and potentially back off this side will be also a place... We have along the highway we will find the motel here and the restaurant probably and the office building. And in the area along TH 101 you will have office retail... And in the core area we are having retail and residential units. And the fourth element that we use to create a concept of the development is not an architectural design standard of...and as we are looking at these...I would like to point strongly out strong use of size. That these elevations, as well as...that take the intent, the overall intent of that development on a broad brush basis of the whole PUD, but they do not reflect that we are...exactly like that will look, the floorplan of the building...but that's not, as a matter of fact, we are not designing any specific buildings. We are just trying to indicate to give some idea of the flavor and the character of...that we are trying to achieve and suggesting to individual developers as they come along that they...along this line of these...that we are trying to reflect with these elevations and the design standards that Bob is working with us on and...we would like to have more of this continuous look of the village developed over the time rather than just single hand, that one single architect did the whole thing. Number two, we are suggesting that we go along...like maybe south...Spanish or Cape Cod or who knows what. We would like to have more of midwestem architectural flavor. Maybe...things that you see in the old towns in Minnesota, or most any other midwestern town... We would like those to reflect that some architectural elements that are... I think that some European flavor on some of these elevations is fine to get reflected and if we have this type of design that reflects midwestem...European type of style of architecture, we believe that that makes...that has been here from the early settlers in Minnesota has been really provided. I mean the people came from Europe and Sweden and so they also...and so this elements that have been here established before, we are trying to... Mancino: Mika, I have a question. So what doesn't work? Mika Milo: Pardon? Mancino: So what kind of architecture doesn't work? Mika Milo: Will not work? Mancino: Yes. Mika Milo: For our villages as we are saying and it would be...we work out together the design standards, says that we are, that we don't believe that the flashy, streamline of modem, super modern just architecture would really work very well here. We would like to have 28 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 more of a warm traditional feeling of...That does not include that you cannot have modern elements...and modern materials and means to achieve the construction but it would in general it's encouraging more familiar forms of the more traditional kinds of forms...That you feel comfortable in it and it's not cold and modem and one huge big building along horizontal lines or bands or something like that, that you see very often in developments...the facade and the elevations, the other thing that we have strongly encouraging through guidelines...and also down the road because there...an architectural review...established here down the line you know for the review and development as it comes even before you, it will be first reviewed by the architectural design committee against the guidelines, against the whole intent of the village is also that it would encourage that not only there is a place for facades and all these that we are trying to...floorplan of the building and the street, building on the street...as many as possible interesting effects that the pedestrians will feel very comfortable or being around or...and those benches on the streets and plaza...multitude of visual effects and interests that the people like to talk about this village as something special. It's almost like a destination. Let's go and spend a quality couple hours there walking and maybe... Mancino: Can you talk a little bit about the materials used. Natural materials and materials found in this area as they do in Europe versus aluminum siding and man made materials. Mika Milo: We are suggesting the guidelines here, materials that come more typical for midwest and...which is brick and wood. Brick and wood that's being earlier...we are encouraging here. Stucco as well. But less of metal panels and gray concrete and all these more...or very flashy, very cold, cold architectural materials. Used more as an accent. We are...So any questions. I'm just going to... Mancino: Any questions, Jeff, architectural... Skubic: I have a question. What would that mass transit component be on the plan? Do you have some idea where and how that would be located? Mika Milo: ...and right here at the core, at the intersection of Main Street and the Lake Drive where we had the village square, there would be a bus station on both ends of the eastbound and westbound. There will be bus stations down here. The Southwestern and Met Council worked with us on that and they are going to participate in...funding of these areas to be created for their transit stops here and that will be a very welcome feature that we have as many activities and...for the village here as much as possible. And so that's an important element in the consideration so I'm glad you... Mancino: And where will the main route of the buses be? Will they come from Great Plains Boulevard into that area and then go out TH 1017 29 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Aanenson: We haven't really worked that out with Southwest as far as what they see their loops and as TH 101 gets widened, those transit may change. The loops depending on where they're feeding. Mancino: So, when will we have that figured out by? Will that be something for final plat? Aanenson: It may be something that changes over time too. I mean that's a flexibility that's part of Southwest Metro that we have. I mean what we're really trying to provide is transit stop locations where people can sit in a comfortable, enclosed area and that's what we're providing. Generous: Or do other things while they're waiting for the bus. Aanenson: Right, yeah. And so the routing may change depending on where people are going. Destinations so there's some flexibility. Mika Milo: Again I would just like to again...of that image of the village...East Lake Drive as well coming here to this end. That would be something later. It could be a motel...but certainly that design was come before the church was designed so it does not reflect the site design of the church...but that gives the overall understanding of the village concept and I think it projects a very comfortable feeling about what we are trying to achieve... Mancino: Thank you. Any other questions at this time? Thank you. Vernelle Clayton: ...but as a practical matter there isn't a whole lot that...If you want to follow along...that there was a change that they would like to have us consider which I...staff recommended that we change this configuration, put the configuration of the pond in this area. There's some pictures that Bob had at the onset that...and shows the restaurant actually moves forward. That's a part of what we'll be working on. Making way for the pedestrians. Working to... So it's not quite done yet. In the meantime we're going to deal with the impacts of taking this land out of this site which is the site that would ultimately...motel and restaurant site. They need a certain size site and if you're taking this away...giving them a little larger site and I just wanted to...that there may be some changes in this area to accommodate that .... This was never intended to be a street... Mancino: So Vernelle, can I interrupt you for a minute? For some of these changes that you may ask for or don't like...it may be that we table this and ask you and staff to work on the changes and the appropriate verbiage of them for next week when we meet again and... because you have not had time to go over that with staff and we don't want to do that during this meeting. 30 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Vernelle Clayton: Right. I don't know either if that was what your intent was on some of these... Aanenson: That's up to the Planning Commission. I guess they have to decide what the scope...and how much changes you're talking about. Vernelle Clayton: Right. We're trying to keep the changes to a minimum and keeping in mind that what we're doing is...changing the plat to reflect... Aanenson: To answer your question Nancy. They've already shown us a revision that we believe is moving in the right direction to answer our concerns... The Fire Marshal had concerns about egress into that area. We were concerned about the amount of wetland. They've already given us the plans that we're pretty confident moves in the right direction. Now you haven't had an opportunity to see it but we... Mancino: Sure. Well it just depends how many there are because we don't want to sit here for 45 minutes where you guys can do that and then come back to us next week and go over it in half an hour and you will come to an agreement. Vernelle Clayton: ...because I didn't want to come either next week or subsequently having worked it out with staff... Mancino: Okay. Vernelle Clayton: The item that we have...we do have a problem...items that we do have a problem with, as Bob mentioned, is the natural area and knoll in the southern part of the development. Number 4...as open space and subsequent item...It is their input...further study and we will bring additional information to you on that. Further study of the...stand on the current TH 101, you don't appreciate...The other thing that needs to be taken into consideration is the amount of grading the new TH 101 will take from that site. That's the grading that will... There is canopy there but there is very few significant trees on the site and we'll get you some more information on that. We also will be accompanying St. Hubert's to the Park and Rec meeting on...There is some need for a soccer field in town...and I should add that the option of having the...is not a viable option to either the seller or the buyer. It's not practical economically for either one...so I just want to let you know that that's an option... Mancino: Even with underground parking? As an option. Vernelle Clayton: Underground parking where? 31 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Mancino: Up in that area. Vernelle Clayton: Even with the underground parking we have... Mancino: ...enlarging it. Vernelle Clayton: We wouldn't have a building in that area that could provide underground parking. If the soccer fields were put, which way is up? Generous: It's side ways. Vernelle Clayton: Up here. Then you would not...with the underground parking...and it would take more space than the office building and... Mancino: I thought they still had the office building. Generous: They did. It's a smaller building. Mancino: Okay. Peterson: As the drawing shows there Vernelle, how far is the soccer field approximately from the church? Mancino: 450 feet. Aanenson: As the crow flies. Mancino: At least that's what the report said. Hempel: Madam Chair, one alternative to that, I don't want to get into the design specifics at this point. One of the recommendations was to consider consolidating this storm pond with this storm pond and eliminating the tennis court which would open up additional space for a possible parking lot expansion or retail or something of that sort so there are some options...to explore. Mancino: Okay, thank you. Vernelle Clayton: Again... Generous: To agree on the development approval, the City has to... 32 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Vernelle Clayton: ...we've covered 3...Number 14 relates to...Rerouting of Riley Creek...but not that we would be doing rerouting. That's part of TH 101. Hempel: It actually depends on the final design parameters of the storm pond adjacent to TH 101 in that location as it impacts the creek. Or the storm pond's going to utilize the creek area so some more discussions on that as we move further along. Vernelle Clayton: Another important item is number 16. We want and we have talked about the timing on that. We have talked with staff and staff is currently working on determining how they can work something out on that... Number 23, all access points on to Trunk Highway 101 are subject to MnDot approval and there Dave, I think that this...all access points for right in and right out...very important to...able to have a right-in and right-out and we're going to make our best effort to...so that's another ongoing item. Mancino: So it will stay just as it is. I mean 23 is fine but you're mostly concerned about that northern access on TH 101. Vernelle Clayton: Right. 25. We're... Again at 34... 40, I believe that in our discussions that language should be changed to a width of 50 feet right there. Hempel: That's correct. Vernelle Clayton: 41. It says that the applicant shall dedicate the future Trunk Highway 101 right-of-way with the initial phase of development. We would like to add, and at the same time...vacation of the existing at the same time. Park fees, we're going to be talking with the Park Department... Development of Block 2. Again that went with....TH 101 or determination of...temporary setback... The only thing that was not specific in here is the 50/50 ownership on the... I wanted to I'm sorry go back, to item number 6. Development shall comply with the development design standards included in the staff report and incorporated herein by reference, and I do want to say there that we are a little uncomfortable with listing the items that are permitted. Typically you...here we have a lot of permitted retail and we, in discussions we...we're not uncomfortable that what we're trying to... We seem to have a good meeting of the minds on what everybody wants...but we would like to, when it comes back, we would like to see it come back...we'd like to be sure that there... They're kept much more up to date than this... For example, we are trying to have a special...and I'm most concerned about other technologies. Areas of technology... I might want to open a fax store. Just sell fax machines. That's not listed as a permitted item but if you use the same zip code... Now 20 years ago there were no fax machines. Today we all have them. If we want this to work 20 years from now... 33 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Mancino: We'll have to update this list, no question. Vernelle Clayton: Yes. But what those...lists are updated...I think that's about it....thank you. Mancino: Thank you. Any questions? Conrad: Yeah Vernelle. Are you comfortable with the sign restrictions? Vernelle Clayton: I think we have, we...spent quite a bit of time talking about that. One of the things we'll probably do, in both our covenants and...and incorporate some of that in them. And in the final report. We're going to have...illustrative documents. We'll have a lot of illustrative documents that...developer and then their review and usually...so yeah, I think we're pretty comfortable...Any other questions? Mancino: I don't think so. That's fine. Thank you very much. I think we want to now move forward to the public hearing. And then maybe after that, depending on how long it goes, make some suggestions about staff and the applicant getting back together and going over these recommendations. Cleaning them up and bring it back to us next week for a final wrap. May I have a motion to open the public hearing and a second please. Conrad moved, Fatmakes seconded to open the public heming. The public heming was opened. Mancino: Thank you. This is open for a public hearing. Those wishing to address the Planning Commission, please do so at this time. Come up. State your name and address. Dave Nikolay: My name is Dave Nikolay. I live at 8500 Tigua Circle. My property is in the southeast corner of the proposed development on the. Mancino: Kind of where is it? Dave Nikolay: Mission Hills, not Mission Hills. Rice Lake Manor development. Some of you may remember...number of times on the Rottlund... Number of people that address the issue relative to the ballfields and park space and the one issue that hasn't been addressed here deals with, I've owned the property I'm currently residing on for about 16 years and over that 16 year period there's been numerous discussions about the possibility of a trail system that would go all the way around Rice Marsh Lake. Nobody's mentioned anything about that trail here. If some day that that trail should be built and connected to the existing trail that runs on the north side of Rice Marsh Lake, then I think it would be advantageous to consider dedicating this space for this land that might otherwise be...proposed as open space, to be a 34 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 park piece of property that would be similar to the Rice Marsh Park. It could be potentially similar to the Lake Susan Park. I think there are a number of other parks classified as neighborhood parks in Chanhassen. I'm one of now over 230 households that are a part of the Rottlund and Rice Lake Manor developments. We have one-half acre of parkland for that many residents in our area. We have no access to parkland by any trail on our side of TH 101, which is the east side of TH 101. So anything that you can do, whether it be small or large, and I don't think there's going to be much large...Park and Rec passed on the proposal... they passed on the Rottlund development as having a park space provided. We eventually did get a half acre. You approved that. They approved it so I would seriously ask that you would recommend to the Park and Rec that they reconsider that they review the first decision or review and that they look at this as park space. I don't know whether it should be St. Hubert's or it should be the developers or who's it should be. I think the City should take responsible or take control of that and if they want to hand it off to St. Hubert's or to some other party to develop or to manage, that's fine. But we need park space and to have a park at that location that might be eventually...a trail that is not addressed yet here at this point, it would be helpful. So I would recommend that you seriously consider allowing some type of park open space to be provided. Mancino: Okay, thank you. Now this is going in front of the Park and Rec on July 25th. Generous: 23rd. Next Tuesday. Mancino: Okay. So that might be an important meeting for you to attend too. Excuse me, I'm losing my voice. Anyone else? Dave Bangaster: Hi. I'm Dave Bangaster and I'm a member of the St. Hubert's Building Committee and I don't want to belabor the ballfield point but I do want to make it clear that that is an important issue to St. Hubert's and just ask your consideration to leave some of your thoughts open to you and to present our case next Tuesday to the Park and Rec. We think we've got some ultimate plan to help mitigate some of the issues. To save some of the trees and also replant some things. To rework some grades in there that we think will help. We'd just like the opportunity to sit down and work that out with staff so I'd just you keep that open and it's understanding that this will likely be continued to next week and we hopefully will have a chance to reconsider it at that time. Mancino: Thank you. Pat Hamblin: I'm Pat Hamblin at 340 Sinnen Circle. First of all I had a question, it's probably a dumb question. I had a really hard time hearing anything. On that plot, the 35 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 square. The town square thing... What is that? Is that just a fancy intersection or is that a building or what? Mancino: Mika, could you answer that please. Generous: Fancy intersection. Mika Milo: It's just a plaza that... It's a paving...so that you can drive vehicles. Pat Hamblin: So you can drive through there? Mika Milo: Yeah, you can drive a car. Pat Hamblin: Okay. I was trying to figure out how...TH 101 from over here. Mancino: It's decorative paving. But it will still be the roadway. Pat Hamblin: And that was the one concern I had. Other than that just, you know I'm hoping that the number of...apartments or townhouses or what but I can talk to you about that later. Only other thing is, on a personal note, it just kind of breaks my heart to see all these trees and sumac and stuff being removed. It also makes me wonder, what's going to happen to all this wildlife that's over there. Especially when they go, you've got 212 coming up to Rice Marsh...that's a sad comment but I guess that's not an important thing... So okay, that's just my... Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else? Have any questions. Comments. Greg Larsen: My name's Greg Larsen. I live on 8151 Grandview Road. My question is, the section of trees that butt up against my property. What they have proposed, it doesn't look like there's anything left in the parking lot there. What's the buffer actually going to be? I'm the first house on. Brad Johnson: He's the one on the left as you go up Grandview. Greg Larsen: I'm the first house. Dean Olson: ...we'll have to first off meet the standards of the city in terms of... Greg Larsen: Yeah buffer zones... 36 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Dean Olson: I would propose that we come in with evergreen and overstory and shrubbery in there so that we get a full mix... Greg Larsen: And then I would like to know a little bit more on how that road's actually going to change. Where it's going to come in according to my property. You say you're going to change access. Mancino: Dave, do you want to address that? Greg Larsen: Yeah, I was here but. Hempel: Maybe I can just use this board right here. The way it's currently, Grandview Road accesses TH 101 in this location approximately 100-150 feet south of Lake Drive. Approximately double that distance. Probably 200 to 300 feet south of the intersection to a public street which... Greg Larsen: Is that looking to come, right now the road goes past the end of my property and now it's going to come up into the center of my property. Possibly. Hempel: Where you garage and your driveway is served? Greg Larsen: There's actually a lower driveway that goes into my garage...down there. Brad Johnson: You've got two trees there. The biggest tree... Mancino: Dave, is it possible for you to go over to Mr. Larsen's house and kind of walk it and show him where it's going to come? Hempel: Certainly. Mancino: I think that that would be a good idea to actually do it on site. Hempel: It would approximately come into your driveway right here. Greg Larsen: Okay, good. That's the one we're... Mancino: But the public road, the public cul-de-sac won't go into his property? Hempel: No. It will terminate at the development's property line. 37 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Mancino: Okay. Greg Larsen: No. be in the garage. Brad Johnson: Probably what we should do... Mancino: Yeah. An on site review of it. Greg Larsen: Thank you. But it will not go into your property and take part of your property. That was my concern was. This was going to be the cul-de-sac...going to That was a concern. Mancino: Anyone else wishing to come in front of the Planning Commission? Seeing none, may I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. Conrad moved, Joyce seconded to close the public heating. The public heating was closed. Mancino: At this point, what would the commission like to do? Do I have a motion to table this until the next meeting and have the. I think we should talk a little bit in terms of things that we would like staff working Okay. Or reinforce something or not. Okay, Jeff. I continue to like this development... Couldn't hear you. Couldn't hear me? No. I'll try and...project. I like this development as much as anything I've seen since I've been on. I think it's a very high quality and I continue to see that. I'd like to see the issue that was touched on briefly about more screening up on Highway 5. In particular screening the parking lot...site line to see through the distance to the retail areas. I'm sure the Conrad: on. Mancino: Conrad: Mancino: Farmakes: Audience: Farmakes: Audience: Farmakes: 38 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 staff can work on that. The other issues and materials that you touched on, I have yet to see worked out. Everything else is well thought out. I look forward to this continuing on. I don't have any critical comments to the thing. Peterson: Moment of silence. Mancino: Nobody knows what to say. Conrad: I'm going to get this videotape. Mancino: We're going to hold this against your from now, forever more. Kevin. Comments. Joyce: The only comment, my comment is I'm excited. I think the staff did a great job. think Lotus did a great job. Mika. I think it's all wonderful. I've got two things though. Number one, Bob can you put up your suggested Section 2 with the parking. Generous: Oh the soccer field? Mancinoi Northwest corner by the motel, restaurant. Correct? Joyce: Yes. I imagine you guys will be discussing this. This would be your suggestion. What am I looking at here? That's the only thing I don't like. I don't like your suggestion I'm afraid. I don't like all that parking right there in that comer. I think that's adding to the problem. I know you're trying to get away from the idea of seeing a lot of parking. I see more parking. Aanenson: Well, what we were trying to do is...new urbanism is that now if you wanted the restaurant to be against Highway 5, you're doing a traditional, very suburban development. We're saying, if there's a relationship to the restaurant to the rest of the development is should be pulled closer because anybody sitting at that motel has to walk across a sea of parking lot which is exactly what we're trying not to accomplish. So we wanted to pull it closer to what's the energy of the rest of the center. We're not sure this is the right solution but we think it's moving... Mancino: Well and you're also trying to make the pond bigger. Aanenson: Right. That's the statement of the project is the pond and it still can have a view of the pond, which is the nice edge but, so we're working we think in the right direction. 39 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Farmakes: ...before we interview them, continue to try to get 4 more candidates? Conrad: That's, I don't know. It's what you folks want to do on that. Mancino: When did we close the applications? July 5th? Aanenson: Yeah, right. That Friday. Mancino: July 5th so it's been closed for a while. Joyce: It's summer time application too. Aanenson: Well we can certainly re-advertise if that's your preference. Tell people that we've extended it, if that's your preference. I just don't want to make it onerous for the rest of you...Whatever's your pleasure. Conrad: If we interview candidates, we will pick one and submit one to City Council. That's what we do. So it's just whether we feel comfortable that we want to have four and maybe there's a no show and maybe, you know do we feel comfortable we have enough candidates? Mancino: I have no idea because, well I do know that one is good... I'm not even going to tell you who it is. I went out and tried to get people to apply. Conrad: If you're comfortable that we have a couple decent people, it's just real important that we have some. Mancino: How does staff feel? That we have a couple. Aanenson: Staff usually stays out of that. We work with whoever is chosen. Mancino: I'm just afraid if we opened it again in August we wouldn't get any more only because in August, everybody's on vacation. Aanenson: Well actually fall's generally a hard time because you get the new school year. People kind of get up and running into a different kind of, depending on I guess where you're at for age. Life cycle. Actually we've had a harder time. The worst time is late fall. That's when we've had the hardest time because people are already in the Christmas thing... So probably later summer, first part of all might be okay. We could certainly re-advertise. I'm just trying to help you so if someone wants to take vacation you don't feel the other people are burdened by being short 1 or 2. 49 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Mancino: Craig, how do you feel? Peterson: I think in reality, I think what Ladd has brought up today makes me feel more comfortable saying no. I think we've got it on the table that we can say no, and should say no if required. It sounds like you planted a seed that will nurture through next week and... If not, I'll bring it up again. Conrad: I will. So let's do it. Mancino: Bob, do you feel comfortable? Skubic: Fine with me. Mancino: Jeff?. Okay. Next week at 6:00. Aanenson: 6:30. Mancino: 6:30. Aanenson: And I'll double check and make sure and let you know for the time it starts, if that's okay. That's all I had for old business. NEW BUSINESS: Aanenson: Tomorrow night's the final meeting of the Bluff Creek. They've been working on their watershed plan and we've scheduled a work session for the, and inviting the City Council for the Planning Commission to get you up to speed on what the watershed plan is about because it does have zoning recommendations. And I've tentatively scheduled that for September 4th. So we'll have people that were working on the watershed plan, Bonestroo and Diane Desotelle who was kind of the coordinator of that, spend some time in open discussion going through that document so when you hold the public hearing, you're comfortable. That gives us a whole month. I'm looking more in October to holding the public hearing. You, as a Planning Commission holding the public hearing on that document. That gives you a good month to get familiar with the document and ask questions. Mancino: And some of that zoning will be clustering? Aanenson: Yeah. And it pretty much, if you look at what this is going to put in place is the zoning south of Lyman. We're putting that pretty much... 50 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Peterson: Land use. Aanenson: Excuse me, land use. Land use recommendations, which we need to be looking at anyways. That was the 1995 study area so it's taking a largest portion of that so then we'll accomplish the rest of that and have that right now is separate from bringing it into the MUSA. It is a whole separate issue. Because we give the land use guide for that area. Mancino: It will also be up to the City Council folks on 212. Aanenson: Yeah. Well actually the recommendation...but certainly you have to give your approval on that to the Council for those recommendations so. And also the State law says we have to have our zoning and our land use in conformance by 1998 so it meets that objective too. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Farmakes moved, Joyce seconded to note the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated June 19, 1996 as presented. CITY COUNCIL UPDATE. Aanenson: The Council approved the Interim Use Permit for the retail garden center on the corner of TH 101 and 169/212, Skip Cook. They also approved the first reading of the fencing, landscaping issue that we talked about on a 2 to 2 vote. The handicap parking issue was actually it was 2 to 2, it's denied. For a code amendment you have to have a majority. So that one won't be put out until they were championing your cause Craig as far as... Mancino: But it's a State law so it doesn't make any difference. Aanenson: Yeah. And then they gave final plat approval to Highlands of Lake St. Joe and that was a resolution of the boundary dispute that we spent about 2 years working out with Victoria and we did work out the transfer of the...so now they can final plat those lots and they'll all be in the City of Chanhassen and the portion that was on the southern end, there's one lot that was made larger, that will be part of Victoria when that area actually subdivides. And last but not least, Town and Country rezoning and the comp plan amendment was tabled until August 12th. Mancino: Why? Conrad: Yeah, where are they? 51 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Aanenson: A couple of reasons. Mike was out of town and to get a fair hearing, you really need, you have to change a rezoning and comp plan you need 4/5ths and with Mike, right there you're already forcing four to vote the same way and then the applicants also asked for time to meet with the neighbors, which they did on Tuesday to work some, see if there's some other design issues that they can work out. Peterson: It looked like the Mayor went public with his position. Where's everybody else? Aanenson: I have no idea. Conrad: What'd the Mayor say? Peterson: He's for it. Joyce: That was out in the paper, the Tribune. ONGOING ITEMS. Mancino: Okay, ongoing items. I don't know if this is ongoing items or open discussion but on Monday they had the open house for 212 and did anyone here attend? Well there were quite a few people there and very active and very vocal and it was, well I think 200 to 300 people were there. Aanenson: It was all three communities. Mancino: Yeah, but mostly Chanhassen and as the councilmembers came in, they were just kind of like magnets all the people came to them but anyway. So there were a lot of people there. It was a remarkable, or I thought. I didn't think there would be half as many people there. Peterson: And the sense was what? Mancino: Most of the people that were there were not for it. Were not for the private toll road. They had a lot of questions and concerns. Conrad: Is that because they're not for the road in general and this is in disguise? Is the toll the issue? Mancino: Sure. Some of it, but others really had some concerns about the private sector and how the financials were set up. Because the State will actually maintain it. Our tax dollars 52 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Joyce: Yeah and I'm not saying. I don't have a solution for you, okay. I just saw that and I went oh. I don't know. It looks like more parking to me is all I'm saying. Is it more? Generous: No. It's probably the same. I didn't have the numbers. Joyce: If there was some way of breaking that up, I don't know. I'm just saying, you know since you'll be talking about it. That's something I'd want to consider. The only other consideration I've had, and I've had it from the beginning is the segregation of this from the other part of downtown. I mean I wish we could figure out some method of slowing down traffic on Highway 5 or something. I just think that's going to be a problem and I look at this as just a beautiful project. If there's some way to integrate this with the other part of downtown Chanhassen, I wish we had a solution...I can't think of anything else so. Mancino: Another bridge. Joyce: Another bridge, right. Otherwise congratulations. Mancino: Bob. Skubic: ...and I think real nice implementation. I think everybody else is quite excited about this. My opinion on it, as far as the integration with downtown is that, even if you were going to put a bridge there, it's too far away from the other businesses. I know I don't walk from Perkins to Target and I don't know if anybody does and that's a lot closer than this is. And it's quite cold here in the winter too. I just don't see this as being part of downtown. I wish it was. The soccer fields, I certainly think we need to keep that...St. Hubert's property or open to the public but I attended the open house at the Park Referendum Task Force had a month ago and it was well represented by the athletic folks in town and they stressed the shortage of ballfields and considerable need...fields and I'd sure like to see that retained and I'd like to see it retained closer to the church...I think if there needs to be a plan of how you get access to the field there. I don't see how that works so. And one more access...it sounds like we are continuing to have an underpass under TH 101 for a trail and I think there needs to be an access for the east side of the trail to main street...so they can access the downtown development... That's it. Mancino: Thank you. Ladd. Conrad: Yeah, I don't have that many things. It's such a big project. Very few things. Couple quick ones. As probably was evident in my comments, I think this pond can be a pretty pond and I guess I'm not looking for it to be a totally natural habitat. Is it more of a picturesque pond. I want to make sure the applicant is really comfortable with the signage 40 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 restrictions. They look real complicated to me and they've got me nervous but Vernelle said that she's okay so, but I'd just challenge that. Make sure it reflects what we want to do. I very definitely feel we should screen the parking lots on Highway 5. There's just no doubt about it. It's probably a greater emphasis and maybe we just don't know what the plan is but it looks like we need more. I'm real interested in the impact of the soccer field. What kind of trees are we taking down? The quality of trees. Are they bad trees? It doesn't look like it fits down there. It looks like it's just sticking right out in a natural area. There's got to be a way to make it fit. If it goes in there, there's got to be a way to make it look more than just like a soccer field stuck in a very natural. I don't know. If the field goes there, I'm real interested in how it's being linked here. It's just not connected. It's just not connected so we need to see that plan and if the soccer field, if we decide the soccer field goes there, it's got to be connected somehow and I haven't seen that. So again what I need is, and maybe the Park and Rec will, no, no. Staff will figure this out. If we tear it down, if we tear the trees down, I need to know what kind of impact there is there. I'm not committed to the reconfiguration of the restaurant location as we just saw. It didn't look, I don't know. There's more, something's not right and I'm not sure what it is, but it just didn't strike me right so the staff proposal for where the restaurant is located, I still see the same thing and I haven't looked at it real good. I still see the same pedestrian problems. Before I could walk people around the edge of the parking lot. Now I've got to route them through so I'm not there yet in terms of a solution for changing that. I like the comment from the public about a trail around Rice Marsh Lake. That's kind of neat. I don't know. I'd sure like to challenge the Park and Rec. Again, I don't know their detail plans for how the south is connected to this development but a trail going through that property sure sounds reasonable. Or sounds like something that should be pursued. I'd sure like to see the Park and Rec. I'd like to get their input before we review this. Boy, they meet on Tuesday. Mancino: They meet on Tuesday. Will we be able to get that? Aanenson: Yeah. Mancino: We can still get it. One, we can attend and number two, we can get that. Conrad: But overall it's really neat. This is just a real treat to see a project like this in Chanhassen. Mancino: Craig. Peterson: I agree with virtually all the comments. I vacillate back and forth on the soccer field being there and having a nice quiet walk through the trees to get there from the area. see that as being a positive. It depends upon how we cover it from TH 101. Does it look 41 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 like...is it fitting in there with the natural trees around that. Part of me likes it there for that reason. Part of me, it is going to stick out like Ladd offered it might but it wouldn't, more landscaping definition of that needs to be done. I'm a little confused on that. I think next time staff, I want to talk a little bit more about the idea of expanding the pond and really the rationale for that. I'm not convinced that expanding it is the right thing to do. I'm more biased towards making it a manicured pond. I think long term it's easier to maintain and keep it looking reasonable. To try to balance the natural versus manicured, you're going to have... I think that a manicured, and how you push that into the wetland area...going to diffuse the look of it so I'm more biased towards manicuring. Aanenson: Can I get your input on that then, just as direction for staff. Because one of the guiding principles, preservation of natural features and so, which ones? I mean basically we've taken the trees down. We don't have enough wetland. We've taken the wetlands out. We have to replace them off site. I mean they've offered to put them in Chaska. We're saying, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let's try to keep them at least in the general area. They want to use the city bank so, but that's where the Park and Recreation's battling too as far as the PUD. What is the city getting out of it, and that's where we were wrestling trying to preserve some of the wetlands. Like this is an area to maintain some of the wetland preservation. So I guess what you're telling us is that it's not important and try to find banking somewhere else? I mean we're talking a significant amount. Joyce: I'm curious though Craig. So how do you manage with the wetland, won't that somehow overtake the opening pond, the pretty pond? Aanenson: No. Joyce: I don't know either I mean. Aanenson: I think we can accomplish that. If you dig it deep enough, sure. That was our proposal. But I mean what you're saying then is that there's not enough replacement on site for wetlands. So what you're saying is that, you want us to come back specifically. We didn't address a lot of that in detail tonight but that was one reason why we tried to put some back there. Peterson: Well I guess what I was thinking, what I'm sensing. I'm confused as to what it's going to look like, and Ladd tried to get that. Aanenson: Okay. Well maybe there needs to be a better definition of what that would look like. 42 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Mancino: I think a vision needs to be articulated much better. I think the vision for the pond and even maybe graphically too. Verbally. Graphically. Peterson: Computer video graphics would be nice. Mancino: Or a rendering. Peterson: A couple other quick items. In the very macro sense, every time I look at this, the first thing I see and the last thing I see is parking everywhere. You know you want to get a feel for you know a little bit of serenity but on a busy day all you're going to see is cars. Even though we're putting a lot of them underground. If you look at it and there's, everywhere you drive getting in and out of there is, there's a car space. Park. And again, this is not an answer. It's just a reflection of what I see when I look at it. I just don't think it generates that much warmth on that level and...can't give you specifics above that. Another item, we talk about where the restaurant is and we talked about it earlier as far as... One of the things that I compare it with, if you've been at the Friday's over by the Radisson South and trying to get to that Friday's through the parking lot of the Radisson, it's a pain. And almost to the point of being dangerous trying to fight your way through the parking lot. People backing out and in and...easy entrance or exit to it. What I don't want us to have is restaurant sites and you've got to go through a maze to get to the parking lot. So that as a parking...there really is a natural level versus trying to figure out where to get to it. And lastly, it really wasn't talked about. It was talked about at one of the preliminary meetings that over on the westerly side where the office complex is. Now at one point in time that was talked about being condo's and trying to have all three of those areas being kind of considered kind of a mix of that. I still find that rather intriguing to have them all three condo's versus office. I know there's a balance of office so you can have some working area but again, I'm looking at the parking aspect of it with office bringing in a lot more parking than you would with condominiums. So those are my salientfpoints for tonight. Mancino: Thank you. My last comments. I think I agree with what ever other commissioners has said. Parking, from what Craig just brought up. What are the options? More shared parking? Underground parking, etc. to alleviate the massive parking. Generous: What I have initialed. These were based on the standards that the Code has. Not what we're proposing for the development. I believe we dropped it down. The number of parking that would...have as part of this. Mancino: Okay, so we had dropped it down. Okay. So what we're saying. Generous: ...It's illustrative but it's not exact. 43 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Mancino: Oh, okay. So how much illustrative is it? I mean is it 20%? Because I've got to tell you. Generous: I did run through the numbers once. I don't remember them off hand. It's significant. It's like 100 over. It exceeds 100 more than I would have had. Just based on those numbers of what they have there. Mancino: So the illustration has more than really what's required? Generous: Yes. Under the proposed guidelines. Mancino: Okay. So we can cut back when it comes to the actual. Generous: When I come back, I can use this example and tell you how many they have and then how many the BC would... Mancino: Would that be helpful for you Craig? Peterson: Yes. Absolutely. Mancino: Okay. Me also. I'd also like to have you and Lotus investigate other ways of parking. Whether it's more underground, etc. What are the other options? And they may be prohibitive but still bring out those options if you could. Secondly, window signs. Part of Vernelle, I know that Ladd asked you about signage. And being a frequent European visitor and being in a neo-traditional setting quite a lot, one of the most stimulating things about it are the window displays and in Europe they don't put huge window signs up because they have the product out very, almost art directed window displays so everybody wants to walk down the street and everybody wants to go to the shops and everybody wants to look in the shops and all this kind of stuff. We don't tend to do that here in our strip malls. We tend to put huge hand lettered signs in our windows and because we're going to have so much window treatment, and that is something that you want to offer, I didn't see anything in the signage area about window signs. Are we going to, are you requesting that we stay with the ordinance of 50%. Somehow that just doesn't seem like it would work in this sort of development. So I'd like to see that addressed. You don't certainly need to answer that to me tonight but if you could address that because it makes a huge visual difference in the streetscape and in the public area. Along with an articulated vision of the pond I would also like to see in writing, to listen to, to read in writing, what traditional village character means. Architecturally wise. If there could be a paragraph describing for me the traditional village character in architectural terms. So that it's real clear that there is a direction being set design wise. I would also like to make sure that, and part of the recommendations is that it is a 44 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 covenant of the development to have the Villages on the Ponds architectural and landscape review committee established and maintained during the project. And I'd also like something about the street furniture recommendations, plants, public art, benches, bicycle racks, also in the recommendations. I think this would be a wonderful place for public art. And I must say, I can't really fully support the master landscape plan because it just doesn't show me much. It's very sketchy so I'm going to be relying mostly on the site plans. I don't feel that in this development we should keep overstory trees of 208 for replacement. I think that if it demands more as boulevard trees, then there should be more as a PUD. And I think those are all my comments. Do we have a motion at this time? Conrad: I'd make a motion that we table this item. Mancino: Is there a second to the motion? Peterson: Second. Mancino: Okay. The motion is seconded. Any discussion at this point? Now, do you need to know why we tabled it? Aanenson: No. We've got the direction. Con:ad moved, Petelson seconded that the Planning Commission hable the Villages on the Ponds until the meeting on July 24, 1996. All voted in favor and the motion canied. OLD BUSINESS: Mancino: Do we have old business? Aanenson: Yes. Just one item. There was four applications for the Planning Commission and what I was hoping is that maybe we could do it next week. I was just trying to base it on how much, it seems like we've kind of condensed. There's two items on next time. Next on the 24th which you've already got in that packet and this will continue. I'm just looking for some direction from the Planning Commission is you want to try to do those before. I kind of hate to have people come late because you never know exactly when we're going to end. We've already kind of noticed those hearings for 7:00 so we would have to start more like 6:30. So whatever your pleasure is on that. Mancino: So you've already given notices at 7:00. 45 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Aanenson: Yeah. Fortunately the hearing, we almost have to get two weeks ahead of time so the hearing for the 24th, they were published almost 3 weeks ago. Mancino: So we could do it at the end, couldn't we? Aanenson: Yeah, it's hard to gauge. Tell people to show up at 9:30. Mancino: Because we'd need to be here at 6:00 then because it's. Peterson: They may as well get used to now. Mancino: Well that's a good approach. Aanenson: See if they really want to serve. Mancino: But Kate we'd have to start at 6:00 because there are four. Aanenson: Yeah, whatever you'd like to do. Mancino: What is people thinking? Conrad: What day are we looking at? Aanenson: Next Wednesday. Conrad: Next Wednesday. And there are only four. I guess that just pops up. That's a bad sign. Four applicants. We are not positioning, we are not a sought after positions here. Four applicants is really, you know we've had 20 in the past so. Farmakes: People just don't get mad like they used to. Conrad: They just don't care. They don't have enough issues. Joyce: What do we need, an hour? Mancino: Aanenson: done. Well 15 minutes is generally. Well generally we kind of put 15. It's up to you. Four. That's generally what we've 46 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 Mancino: If we started at 6:00, the meeting probably wouldn't go too long. everyone's pleasure be? Start at 6:00 and interview or interview at the end? August. What would Or wait until Aanenson: Yeah, otherwise we could schedule it for the first one in August. Although we have no breathers between now and September. We've got you pretty booked, yeah. Actually on the 12th, August 12th. Excuse me, it would be August 7th. We've got six items and then on the 21st we've also got, we just received projects coming in for this one now. So there's really not a good time. What I could do on the other ones is push the meeting back later but then you're just going to be here later. So whatever's convenient for you or. Mancino: I suggest that because we only have two items, and now three items on the agenda next time, we do it next week at 6:00 and come for four interviews at 6:00. Peterson: I don't know if I can get here at 6:00. Conrad: I just don't know that I'll be here at 6:00. Mancino: What about 6:30? Can't we put something in the paper tomorrow? Oh we can't. We don't even have a week. Aanenson: The paper goes out Thursday. It's already been pretty much put together. Oh, it comes out tomorrow morning. I can check with the City Attorney and see what we can do as far as it goes. If they show up and we start at 6:30 and see if we can just hold people off. Mancino: Could everyone make it at 6:30? Conrad: Yes. Mancino: Is 6:30 better? Okay. Aanenson: Also the fact that it wasn't published so I can check on that too. Conrad: It wasn't published. Aanenson: Yeah. That we do the interviews but I'm not sure that that's. We'll check on that. I'll let you know. And then as far as old business too. As far as your preference for updating you. We can certainly get going on the issues that you've given us direction on. I'm just wondering if it would be okay if we get those out, try to get those out Friday afternoon. Does that give you enough time to have the weekend for that. And there might be some 47 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 things we might have to just do orally and present at the meeting but we certainly got clear direction. I'm not sure how much of that we can really address between now and. Mancino: Or even if we got some of it on Friday and some on Monday. That would be fine too. Aanenson: Okay. Conrad: Can I go back? Madam Chair, on four applicants. We have a tendency, if you have four, you're going to pick one. Very seldom do you not find, do you not recommend one. It just makes me a little bit nervous that we only have four. Farmakes: Are any of the other previous applicants that were last time, were they encouraged to re-apply? Aanenson: One of them is. Mancino: Yes, one is. Conrad: One is what? Aanenson: Re-applied. Mancino: So go a little further...your thinking. Conrad: Yeah, if you have 6 or 7 folks, you're going to find somebody that's, when you get down to 4, only 3 may show. You know stuff like that. I tell you, it's real easy to slip your standards in terms of who gets on here. I think it's real important that we have, if they're all good boy, then what I'm saying is not a problem. If they're all bad, I don't know that we've ever had enough, whether it's all gumption or whatever, to say none of them meets our standards because they're all good people. Everybody we interview are nice people. Joyce: What happens if they don't meet our standards? Do we just put a new ad in the paper? Aanenson: Yeah, we would re-advertise. Conrad: See I've never seen that though. I guess that's my point. I've never seen where, oh we'll find one. Somebody's got to be best out of the 3 or 4. 48 Planning Commission Meeting - July 17, 1996 will maintain the toll road during this...and there were all sorts of questions like that. Does it affect property taxes? What if the public sector gets it back? How does that...so there were a lots of detail...and then people also wondered, when you get all this, is it doing what the Metropolitan Council wants as far as, is it going to create more growth west and put a strain on the infrastructure, schools, etc. So there were all kinds, I mean they were good questions and what will it do to our downtown. I mean we'll have a big freeway going down. How far will it be? About a mile and a half from Highway 5. Aanenson: It's all addressed in the comp plan. I don't see how that would. That's what we're planning on. That's what the Villages are planning on. The additional increase up TH 101. That's what we want. And actually that's what we're hoping too. When we looked at the traffic study for the EA, the additional truck traffic going south. When we did the EA for the Chan Business Center, once that and TH 41, there will be additional truck traffic going south instead of all on TH 5 so this will actually tend to lessen some of that traffic. Trucking traffic anyway. Mancino: Well it may be something that we thought about but you know Chaska or some of the other communities, Eden Prairie whole downtown is...there will be a tremendous pressure for communities on that 212 corridor to put in big boxes, commercial, low income. I mean it all gravitates towards those areas. Aanenson: Well I don't know. Everybody's had it in their comp plan and all or most of Chaska's...through there. Same with Eden Prairie. Mancino: But then it goes out west to TH 41. Aanenson: Well yeah, but that's there already. I mean it's just widening it. Mancino: So I'm just saying, those were the questions that were brought up. To be answered at a later date. Can we have a motion to close the meeting? Joyce moved, Pete~son seconded to adjourn the meeting. The meeting was adjoumed at 11:00 p.m. Submitted by Kate Aanenson Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 53