CC Minutes 11-23-09
Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
Councilman Litsey: It’s probably against fire code.
Todd Gerhardt: No candles.
GLEASON VARIANCE, 2111 PINEHURST DRIVE (LOT 22, BLOCK 1, PINEHURST
ND
2 ADDITION): REQUEST FOR AN AFTER-THE-FACT HARD SURFACE
COVERAGE VARIANCE. APPLICANT: US HOME CORPORATION.
Kate Aanenson: Thank you Mayor, members of the City Council. The item before you, 2111
Pinehurst Drive is part of a subdivision where we’ve had a couple other requests for variance.
rd
This item did appear before the Planning Commission on November 3 and I’ll circle back and
talk about that in a minute. Located in the Pinehurst neighborhood just off of Galpin. 1.38%
hard coverage is being requested from the 25% for additional hard coverage. All site plans go
through the, as they’re gone through the different departments we do look at the hard cover
requirements of this permit as it was issued did meet the hard surface requirements. You can see
the site plan itself and then the calculation on the right. After they’re built they are requested to
show an as-built survey. So at the time that the as-built survey was submitted back to the city, so
th
the permit was issued on August 27 and then back when the, on December of ’08 when the
survey was submitted, you can see the difference in the site plan or the layout itself which
included the driveway configuration increasing and the sidewalk itself. So staff did inform the
builder that it was in error and the builder did inform the homeowner that it did not meet that so
they were in non-compliance with that. Again as a part of the city’s ordinance we do require a
back patio on all lots. A 10 by 10. We found that, that was one way that some of the builders
were finding a way to meet the requirements by leaving that off and we felt it was important
when there is a patio door that at a minimum we provide that 10 by 10 and that was left off. In
reviewing the calculations where you can see what the building permit showed and then how it
went up for the percentage of square foot. The owner is requesting that they leave the driveway
and they would forego the patio in the back. The Planning Commission struggled a lot with this.
I think some of the confusion came in and we put two motions in place for you on your
recommendation. The applicant, or someone representing the builder has stated that they didn’t
feel that that driveway worked as itself. Now if you went through the neighborhood, most the
homes are built that way with the neck down and we’ve had two other requests in this
neighborhood. If I was to go back to the first one. The homes immediately to the, two houses to
the east there also have applied for variances and the addresses are in your staff report had also
applied for variances and those were turned down by the City Council. Those addresses were
2101 Pinehurst, and that was a 3.3% and 2081 Pinehurst and that was a 2.6% hard cover so
they’re approximately 650 square feet and another 530 square feet, or 40 square feet and both of
those were also denied so being consistent with that. I think where the Planning Commission
struggled and why we put the additional recommendation in is the Planning Commission was
struggling with all or nothing kind of thing. Obviously the builder’s reluctant to pull the
driveway out now that the homeowner’s been in there. It’s been in there for a while so they were
struggling so we tried to give you a couple different options in looking at that, and I’ll go to the
recommendation here. So certainly within that, excuse me. I’ll show these are the two that had
the variances on there. 2101 and the 2081. Actually the one at 2081 actually bought the
additional property there to make that lot larger. So we did put in an additional recommendation
in there but we’re still left struggling. The staff’s recommendation was for denial. The staff’s
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
recommendation struggling with not having a patio. Whether it’s this homeowner or homeowner
in the future, that’s kind of makes it desirable when you come out of that back patio door.
Certainly there’s a deck above that but what that does to the livability and the desirability of the
property in the long term. So with that we did provide Findings of Fact. If you wanted to do
some motion inbetween there and then we would recommend that we come back with Findings
of Fact at your next meeting but with that I’d be happy to answer any questions that you have.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Questions for staff.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: I have a couple questions.
Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: The two variances you spoke about, I think you showed a picture of
them earlier. Were they denied after the fact? You know what I’m saying?
Kate Aanenson: I’m not sure. I’m sorry.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Okay. But you do you understand my question?
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Okay. And.
Kate Aanenson: If your question is were they given relief based on that, I don’t believe so.
They were denied so they would have had to remove it. If there was anything there.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: That’s what I was asking. If this happened before or after there was
something already existing there.
Kate Aanenson: That I can’t comment on but.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: And if that happened before it was built or purchased the way it’s
happening now. Second question I have is when we do put a driveway in there’s a permit pulled
and the plans are submitted and the driveway’s completed. Do we send an inspector out to
inspect the driveway?
Kate Aanenson: No. We look at the survey when it’s put in place and it’s the obligation of the
contractor to follow the survey and we’ve worked, long education curve over the years to stop
this problem that’s occurred and we’ve actually gone back and done as-builts for this particular
reason where we’ve had changes in grading and drainage where it may cause problems too so it’s
the builder’s responsibility to submit those surveys. Often times you have weather conditions
that make it impossible to get the survey in a timely manner, or the driveway in in a timely
manner also so sometimes those things play into consideration too so the survey does lag behind
someone trying to moving in and getting the as-built done or finishing grading. They may want
to move in before some of that. Things that are not life safety issues are done. But it’s our intent
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
that when they submit the survey that that’s what they’re going to follow and if there’s a problem
or if they want to change it up, they would come meet with somebody. Make modifications,
which does happen. Someone may want to change something.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yeah, I’m surprised about that because even when you put a new
deck on, you know they’ll come out and inspect the footings and do everything else as a process.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah but a driveway is kind of like a patio. As long as that is put in place and
follows those sort of things. We try to catch it with the as-built. Not every you know would be
similar to a patio if it’s not shown on the plan and someone calls on something like that but we
don’t stand out there and follow up on all of those. Those would be complaint driven.
Mayor Furlong: Other questions for staff at this time? At the Planning Commission there were
comments made. How did this occur?
Kate Aanenson: Well again the staff’s, reviews the, I’ll go back to the one that shows the survey
here. Sorry. So the survey would be submitted with the application. Now lots of times when
these come through there’s a conversation that’s being held with the builder because it doesn’t
meet the requirements so it’s a negotiation of how do we make it work.
Mayor Furlong: At the time that they request the permit?
Kate Aanenson: At the time the permit’s being issued.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: While the building inspectors are reviewing the plans, the engineering and the
planning department’s reviewing, looking at making sure that it follows the grading plan which
is very important. Engineering reviews that part of it and then the planning department’s looking
at the hard cover portion of it, so those are the other two departments that are all working
together to get the permit issued. If it’s not, if it meets all the hard surface coverage and we still
make sure that, if it’s supposed to be a look out or walk out that it follows the grading plan so
engineering department would follow that process to make sure. So often times it’s a simple
phone call to talk about. It looks like there’s some additional, you know they sometimes show a
future pool or something like that, or a tennis court or a sport court. We would inform them that
you’re getting close to the maximum. Let’s talk about some ways that we can meet your goals.
We try to be you know advocating for them to make sure that they can meet their needs. They
can provide that and when this house did come in it did provide for that 10 foot back patio,
which is a requirement because there is doors going out. But that was, so the permit did meet the
ordinance. And somewhere in the process the contractor it appears, and it was stated in the
Planning Commission, the contractor decided that that didn’t seem to make a lot of sense. The
way the driveway was laid in place, nor the sidewalks so they chose to deviate from the plan. So
that’s how it happened. And it wasn’t caught until the survey, done at a later time requirement,
the as-built was submitted back to the city. And then the planning department did notify the
builder that they didn’t follow the plan and they were in violation. Now the homeowner’s
burdened with the problem of non-compliance.
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
Mayor Furlong: Sure. Yeah. Was there anything at the Planning Commission, and that was,
well it turned coming through as a recommendation because of the vote. Anything expressed in
terms of the hardship that’s created?
Kate Aanenson: Well I think, I think that you know the vote was 4 to 2. I think there was some
concern that again the homeowner got, it’s not a good welcome to the city which we don’t want
to have happen. We want everybody to you know have those choices that they can make later
with their property. That they’ve got some of that additional hard cover so I think there was the
two votes that were, didn’t support the denial had some concerns regarding that. But I think the
rest of it felt like, it was a little bit of where we spent a lot of time with the builder has done work
in this city. A little bit of disregard for the following the requirement.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Any other questions at this time for staff? Councilwoman
Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: I have another one. This neighborhood seems to have a lot of these
problems and I guess I’m confused. I mean we’ve set ordinances and building codes in place
before this was, before this development was even built and I’m wondering why we’re having so
many problems with this particular.
Kate Aanenson: We’d love to talk about that for a minute. When this project came in, and we
noticed, the lots came in at the minimum and we were concerned because they were larger
homes. Now we’re at the top end of the building cycle when there was a big desire to move to
this area and actually the builder came back to us and said we’d like to put a 4 car garage on
there. It was like, there’s no way we can get a 4 car garage in there because they realize the
houses at that time are moving up towards the top end. The different builders in there and at that
time they did drop some of the lots to make them work so actually some of these lots, there were
2 lots that were dropped on the bottom part to actually make some of these lots bigger. Our
normal lot size is 15. If you look in the staff report, we put the average in there which I believe
was closer to 18 or 20,000 so we’re bigger than most of the lots so these are large homes, and
people do want to have those additional amenities. Whether it’s the third car garage and the
patio out the back. The fire pit in the future. Some of them want the sport court. Some of those
things which we want to build in that flexibility but we do have a large footprint on these. On
some of the lots are small. That’s why I think you’re seeing some of the lots up there, people
have combined, actually bought two lots to make it work. To meet their needs.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Any other questions at this time? Okay, is the applicant here this
evening? Good evening.
Carol Toohey: Good evening Mayor, council members.
Mayor Furlong: Good evening.
Carol Toohey: My name is Carol Toohey with Lennar Corporation, also known as US Home.
We’re here on behalf of the homeowner in regards to the hardship difference on the home site.
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
There is, was obviously you can see the discrepancy between the building permit driveway and
the as-built survey. Ms. Aanenson did a good job of describing basically what happened and the
contractor decided to install a driveway they felt was more appropriate given the type of
driveway, or the garages and the use of those garages and unfortunately our builder didn’t,
wasn’t there the day that they installed it and now obviously we didn’t catch it until the as-built
survey was completed and unfortunately that was also after Mr. Gleason had purchased his
home. So we’re here on behalf of the homeowner to try and help him to allow him to have the
new driveway that he did purchase from us. We have modified the original application which
did include both a larger driveway and a patio to just the driveway as it is today. We do
understand that is an increase above the maximum surface but the, we believe the difference
between this hard surface and for example the patio hard surface is where the water goes. This
additional surface does flow to the street and into the storm sewer in the street whereas the back
yard would flow into the grass and the ponds and there were some issues there so we believe
there is also a difference in that kind of request so we’re here to respectfully request that the
council consider the new Findings of Fact that the staff is presenting where they do accept the
driveway as it is today.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Any questions?
Carol Toohey: Any questions?
Councilman McDonald: Yeah I’ve got a question.
Mayor Furlong: Councilman McDonald.
Councilman McDonald: I understand a lot of this was probably a mistake or something along
those lines. Why haven’t you offered to fix the driveway back to the way it should be as built?
Carol Toohey: Because the homeowner did buy this home as it with the driveway in and had an
understanding that this is what he was purchasing through no fault of his own. He didn’t know
that we had a mistake, made a mistake and at that time we had not known so we’re doing all that
we can for the homeowner to try and let him keep what he purchased.
Councilman McDonald: Okay. When I was on the Planning Commission there were at least 2
or 3 homes in this development that came through because again as Kate had stated, you wanted
to maximize the size of the house that went onto the lot and based upon that no one could put in
retaining walls. They could not put in any landscaping. We went through a lot of iterations with
people coming through trying to convince us that we could dig holes in the ground and do
basically little sump pumps or water gardens or something along those lines. And at the same
time 3 years ago when there was a flood a lot of water ran off from this area down below here.
Flooded out homes. We had those homeowners coming in up in arms because basements had
been flooded out. Property had been flooded. To me the solution is you fix the driveway. He
may have bought what is there but that is not what was approved. The solution is fix the
driveway. Either the homeowner can do it or you can do it. I’m not going to vote for a variance
because again too many people have come through here. This has been an ongoing problem and
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
I’m just not going to tolerate it. You’re not going to get my vote to allow for this variance.
You’re going to have to fix this problem.
Mayor Furlong: Any other questions or comments for Mrs. Toohey?
Todd Gleason: Can I make a, or I’m not sure what the process is.
Mayor Furlong: Certainly. Nope, that’s fine. Please, Mr. Gleason. Good evening.
Todd Gleason: Thank you. Good evening. I’m not probably prepared with comments other
than I did submit some written statements and I appreciate if you had a chance to take a look at
that. I travel a lot for my job and wasn’t sure I was going to be here this evening. That said, I do
you know sort of ask you know for a couple comments. One is, I know our neighbors of course.
You know you know the people in your neighborhood and when you’re faced with an issue you
share certain frustrations with your other fellow neighbors and often times they share their
experiences and so this has been one, as you can imagine, for people like myself, this is a new
neighborhood. You know this is one of the topics. You know I guess I would, you’re asking for
an answer. I don’t know if I can say the exact answer regarding the two neighbors that applied
for a variance but my understanding, because one is our next door neighbor. They applied
because they wanted a larger patio to be put in. It had nothing to do with their driveway and I
believe the other one on the corner, they were looking to put in something in their back yard as
well. That why they purchased the lot next to them, so they now have a larger lot for them to do
what they want to do in their back yard. Again my understanding is, it had nothing to do with
their driveway. You know as my letter I think outlined, if you had a chance to read it, I would
just sort of share my frustration with the entire process here. I’m not going to argue the facts or
the technical aspect or the, you know the erosion ratios. That’s really not what I do. I know that
we moved here from New Jersey. We found this house. We were attracted to the community
and frankly you know since that time we’ve struggled with a lot of processes associated with the
purchase of this home and some of the things that my family and I are dealing with, now
including this driveway which was there when we bought the house and we did actually call the
city regarding hardscape to understand what limit we were up against. While I’m sensitive to
you know Councilman McDonald’s frustration with the you know the history of this. I guess I
would just remind the council that, my family and I didn’t create the history. When we called
the city, specifically for hardscape. Specifically for other reasons. When we weren’t given a
permit to move in until we got windows fixed. You know to find out 8, 7 months later that there
was this issue, I struggle with understanding how now we’re the ones that are going to have to
fix something that hopefully I believe is a minor variance but that’s my comment because you’ve
read my written statements. I don’t want to go over that again. If you’ve had a chance to read
that, I appreciate it.
Mayor Furlong: No, I appreciate that and thank you for providing those comments and realizing
that it’s pretty clear from what you said, what we’ve heard tonight and what was said at the
Planning Commission, this wasn’t something you created. But unfortunately you’re dealing with
it and the process is sometimes one that isn’t designed for efficiency but for clarity and making
sure that everybody gets heard in a timely manner so I appreciate you putting up with the process
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
as it’s been. Any other questions for the applicant or for Mr. Toohey? Councilwoman Ernst, did
you want to ask a question?
Councilwoman Ernst: Yeah, I have a question for Kate. Can you tell me, after reading the staff
report, the patio seemed to be the bigger issue for water runoff, is that correct? And is there
really a concern with this driveway?
Kate Aanenson: I don’t think either issue was more important. We just brought up the patio
because we think it’s, it makes the house, it’s like not having a front sidewalk. Sometimes it’s
just one of those things that will make a house more livable. The Planning Commission didn’t
talk on that nor we. I think they’re both hard cover and just the viability and livability.
Councilwoman Ernst: But I mean is there a bigger, was there, is there an issue with the driveway
being in there for a while?
Kate Aanenson: Well it’s just hard cover.
Councilwoman Ernst: Zero point percent.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah.
Mayor Furlong: Alright, maybe that’s a question Councilwoman Ernst for our city engineer.
Councilwoman Ernst: Okay, sorry.
Mayor Furlong: Mr. Oehme, does it matter if the water runs off in the front of the house or the
back of the house or, in terms of storm water management?
Paul Oehme: Well, not really. I mean it either goes through their yard into the wetland and
through those ponds out in back or it ends up in the street and eventually ends up in the pond so
there may be some, maybe some water quality benefit if it goes through surface drainage to the
back yard and into the wetland but it still should be treated and consistent with other properties
in the area.
Councilwoman Ernst: Is there anything that they can do to help that situation with the current
situation that they’re in right now?
Paul Oehme: I mean it all comes back to hard surface coverage. We’ve talked to the council
about you know storm water improvements that could potentially help the situation. We’re not
you know there yet I guess in terms of who’s, what type of improvements potentially could be
added to address these type of conditions but.
Councilwoman Ernst: Well I know in the past we’ve talked about additional landscaping and
that sort of thing that might help the situation. I’m wondering if there’s anything that they could
do that is similar to that that would.
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
Kate Aanenson: I would just point out, we did spend a lot of time talking at one of the other
applications up here. They brought in a long, kind of expansive drawings of what different
alternatives they could use and at that time we chose not to accept that as a path because we
didn’t have you know a policy or plan in place to make that happen. The one that actually
bought the other lot. They were looking at some, kind of some creative alternatives to reduce
their hard cover.
Councilwoman Ernst: Yeah and I don’t, I’m not getting the feeling that we’re looking at
comparable situations here when we’re talking about, for example 2101 and 2801. We don’t
know if they had a driveway. If they were dealing with an existing condition or if it was after the
fact. And then.
Kate Aanenson: I think Mr. Gleason stated the facts pretty much, pretty clearly that they both
want to do additional coverage to their property. I think we’re all in agreement that Mr. Gleason
didn’t cause the problem but the contractor didn’t follow the plan. Yeah. So it’s just the
additional hard cover. We’re not saying you know we’ll leave that up to you to decide the merits
of that. Whether or not there was, one’s more egregious than the other.
Councilwoman Ernst: Well and so because I don’t feel that we’re dealing with comparable
situations. I’m just asking if there’s something that he can do with additional landscaping or
something to help remedy the situation.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council members. We did look at, there’s an empty lot to the west and
we looked at you know replatting the area and buying additional land, but now we’ve just pushed
the problem kind of downstream again. You’re going to have to see a smaller home that’s next
door that’s not the tradition in this neighborhood so, this is a tough one. I mean one of the things
that we’ve talked about when we have situations like this that if we could bank property
somewhere in the area and people buying into that situation is the only thing that staff has come
up with. With the tight clay soils in Chanhassen, it’s very difficult to use some of the products
that are out there today. So you know we just haven’t gotten to that point of trying to find a
piece of land in this watershed district where property owners could come in and buy some open
space and that would have to remain open now and into the future is really the point that we’re
at.
Councilwoman Ernst: Yep, and I see that as being a potential long term solution whereas the
situation that we’re dealing with today is right in front of us and we need to figure out how we
can help this homeowner when he was not, he’s really not responsible for what happened here.
Mayor Furlong: Any other questions for the applicant? Oh I’m sorry, Councilman Litsey.
Councilman Litsey: Well, Mr. Gleason in your letter you stated that prior to moving in there,
were there actually building inspectors out there on the site to deal with the window issue? It
says in here prior to moving in the city inspectors notified, there’s an issue with windows
apparently. How did that come about or was that, were they actually on site to look at that or was
it just?
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
Todd Gleason: Well I believe they were.
Councilman Litsey: Okay.
Todd Gleason: I certainly didn’t, you know I mean my recollection of 2 years ago now it seems
like, but was that we did receive a call from Lennar that the inspector had come in. Verified that
certain windows didn’t pass I believe it was efficiency ratings and that they needed to be
replaced.
Councilman Litsey: Okay.
Todd Gleason: You know and so.
Councilman Litsey: Okay. And is your assertion then that the city inspector should have caught
the other issue at that time?
Todd Gleason: Well I guess my assertion might not be that necessarily. My assertion is that you
know 7-8 months after moving into the home, receiving a letter from the city that we were over
the hardscape was a surprise, not only based on that fact but also based on the history that we had
that it seemed to us that a process had occurred and again I’m not professing to be an expert in
the area of permits, inspections and the like, but that certain people had come into our home from
the city to approve it’s you know, it being a habit you know. I mean us being able to move into
the home. It’s occupancy. That coupled with the phone call that we had made because we were
exploring what we could do in our back yard and finding out that we were already was you know
that we’re at 24.88 percent of hardscape, which apparently was on the as-built. All of this is my
point is, you know we had had a couple of conversations with the city about the hardscape. We
then obviously you know, I wouldn’t say delayed our move in but we were sensitive to maybe
delaying our move in. That somebody had come and inspected our home. The windows needed
to be replaced. We were fine with that process because we were renting a home in the area. You
know all of that, you know the bottom line equation is that it certainly felt like a lot of people, a
few people had looked at our home. Inspected it. We moved in and now we’re here.
Kate Aanenson: Can I just make one point of clarification. We do not do the as-built. That’s up
to the builder so that was Lennar’s responsibility to check to make sure it was built, the driveway
was built correctly. And the rest of the survey, the hard cover, that’s their job to do and that
includes the elevations for the drainage and that sort of thing so there’s a time line, and I think I
pointed that out. The permit was issued in 2007. These take a few months to build but the as-
built wasn’t submitted until our records show 12-1-08 so it was over a year before we got the as-
built back so.
Councilman Litsey: That was my next question. Because I mean you normally wouldn’t pick
that up on an inspection anyway because that’s not something…
Kate Aanenson: Not the driveway stuff, nor would they pick up, yeah. The measure the
setbacks from the street and that sort of thing but not the as-builts. That’s up to the builder.
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Councilman Litsey: Okay, thank you.
Mayor Furlong: I asked Ms. Aanenson hardship and that’s one of the factors that comes into
play with a variance. The hardship of, you know but for. You dealt with this I’m sure as a
builder and looking for variances more than Mr. Gleason has. He’s an unfortunate participant I
think here which is pretty clear from his statements. Where is, is there a hardship here? Or not
allowing, you know if the variance is not allowed.
Carol Toohey: Well, in our application Mayor we explained the hardship as this gentleman you
know bought the home as you see it today. Had expectations of use. As you can see you know
the driveway. Just looking at the two different driveways, there’s two completely different
potential uses. The width in front of the third stall, or the single stall, the depth of the pavement
is only about 16 to 18 feet deep. Typically the third stall is used for recreational vehicles. Extra
cars. That is not an appropriate depth to use in that stall in that way. My understanding of why
the contractor built the driveway as you see it today so that they could actually properly use that
stall for it’s use. That homeowner has lived there for 2 years now so has bought what the
understanding of the use of the driveway and was using it and so that hardship would be you
know taking away the enjoyment of the driveway as you see it today.
Mayor Furlong: Is the building permit survey, the one on the left there, is that, that driveway
configuration, is that a normal configuration for other homes in this neighborhood or throughout
that you build or was it abnormal?
Carol Toohey: You know I don’t know. My assumption is that is just the standard template that
the engineer uses. Doesn’t actually look at the garage or the use before they lay it on there.
They have a little…plop in their CAD.
Mayor Furlong: So it’s a pretty typical layout and I guess that’s been my experience just not
only in this neighborhood but throughout the city is with a third car garage, while it may have a
driveway with the width of 3 cars at the house. By the time you get to the access off the street
it’s down to a 2 car width.
Carol Toohey: That is standard but if you do look though, you know depending on the home,
and there was an aerial. The car is parked there. You know say someone had a truck or a boat,
it would be at an angle and then cutting into the 2 car portion of the driveway, which…
Todd Gleason: And maybe if I could make a comment Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Furlong: Certainly Mr. Gleason.
Todd Gleason: If I legitimately, and maybe that’s already… If I really thought that that
driveway that is, that was proposed in the permit would be functional for us, given, I wouldn’t be
here today. I mean I really wouldn’t try to be wasting your time over, it’s not like I’m dying to
have a larger driveway. I mean that’s not my goal in life. Frankly I think a gray box on the
screen is interesting but you know for me to pull out of my third car stall there, because I give
my wife the other, for me to pull out of that and weave around the way to that, I know my
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
driveway, would be very difficult for me to believe that it would be anywhere close to the same
level of you know use in my current driveway which is, doesn’t feel that excessive when I’m on
it I would state.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Very good. Any other questions or comments? Very good,
thank you. Appreciate you being here for your comments. Let’s bring it to council for
discussion and comments. Thoughts. Unless there are any follow up questions for staff at this
point.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: I have one more question for Kate.
Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: The two variances that were denied that you discussed earlier in your
presentation, what was the percentage or what was the overage of hard surface coverage?
Kate Aanenson: The first one at 2101 was requested a 3.3% or about 650 square feet. And the
second one was.
Councilwoman Ernst: 2.6.
Kate Aanenson: The first one was 3.3.
Councilwoman Ernst: Yeah.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah. About 250 square feet. The second one at 2081 was 2.6. About 540
square feet.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Thank you.
Mayor Furlong: And the results of those were?
Kate Aanenson: Both, they were both denied.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Any thoughts or discussion?
Councilman McDonald: Well I guess the only comments I’d come back to is again is, you know
I feel very strongly about my position in this and part of it goes back to again I remember when
this whole development came up for platting and staff did point out a few problems as far as lot
sizes and types of houses and there was a reduction in lots as I recall you know just to
accommodate that. This has been a problem from day one and it was brought up when I was on
the Planning Commission. We made it known to the builder then that you know they were
creating a ticking time bomb because people wanted to do things with their homes and the
builder wanted to go ahead and go forward with the type of homes they wanted to put on there
and that was fine. I remember one of the comments I made at the time was that whoever buys
the home should be made aware of some of these limitations to these homes. I know that never
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
happens and it probably didn’t happen in this case either but it’s not as though no one knew
going in what the rules were and what the problems were. If this were a total surprise to
everybody I might feel differently but because from day one knowing what had happened with
this, I’m not surprised and it’s, I understand from the owner’s standpoint. I wouldn’t want to be
in your position either. There’s a few of your neighbors that I know that one came in from
California and before they even got moved in they were being told they couldn’t do what they
wanted to do with the property. But I cannot support a variance in this case.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Other comments. Councilwoman Ernst.
Councilwoman Ernst: Well I believe that the owner didn’t know in this situation and as we
talked about previously we don’t, the other two residents in the same neighborhood, we don’t
know if that situation was similar to this one or not at this point. We do know that the overage
was more than what we’re talking about today. Today we’re talking about 0.8%, which is not a
huge percentage of square feet. Percentage over but you know really with the situation that, and
the details that we’ve talked about here today, I would support Option B on this because I feel
that it would be the right way to go. The homeowner’s willing to forego the patio and live with
that if we give him the driveway and I would be okay with that.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Other comments. Councilwoman Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yeah. When I look at variances I often you know, I guess the key
word for me or a flag is a hardship and I think another key word that I’ve made up for this is
probably self inflicted and I just feel that as a homeowner this was not self inflicted. This was
obviously a lack of communication between the builder and the contractor, or whoever was
putting in the driveway and they made a huge mistake that now the new proud homeowner has to
deal with and I’m sorry for that. Welcome to Chanhassen. We used to be called Chanhassle and
we’ve worked very hard to not be called that anymore and so I’m hoping that from now on you’ll
find it a pleasant place to live. I just, you know I, I feel that this was not an intentional overage
of hard surface coverage by the homeowner and Councilman McDonald I totally understand
your frustration with this development and how as a council and planning commissioners we
work with staff to, to protect our water. We watch where the surface water flows and where it
goes and how it’s treated and so I understand your frustration and I’m with you on that but
because this I don’t feel was, this was not something that was intended by the homeowner. It
was a miscommunication way before he even probably came to Minnesota, I’m going to have to
support staff’s option of allowing the driveway to exist but denying the patio.
Mayor Furlong: So you’re supporting Option B?
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yes I am.
Mayor Furlong: Is that Option B?
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Mayor Furlong: So, okay. Thank you. Councilman Litsey, your thoughts.
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
Councilman Litsey: Well I certainly sympathize with Mr. Gleason’s situation so what I’m about
to say isn’t from lack of sympathy for what your situation is but I agree with what Mr.
McDonald said in terms of, well let me back up. What I think this is more of is the City’s getting
pulled into a situation they really shouldn’t be in in the first place. It’s a builder/owner issue and
that’s really where it should remain in my opinion. We’re being asked now to help out a
situation that clearly does not meet our ordinance or code so I just think that we have to, we have
these in place. We have to be consistent in it’s application. A lot of these variances that come
in, it is oversights or whatever. I don’t know that this could really be classified as an oversight.
This was just the builder didn’t do what they should have done and I think Mr. Gleason has, you
know is an aggrieved party in that, and the builder has to make good on that. That’s what the
issue really is and that’s where I think it should stay.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Obviously a challenging issue based upon the different
thoughts and opinions and one that is, as much as this council continues to try to accommodate
and be flexible, this is a challenging one. I reckon back to, I think back to other after the fact
variances where the building or property improvements have occurred and it exceeds the hard
surface allowance and these are the toughest ones that we do. Especially in this case where the
homeowner wasn’t the one that created it. We’ve got other ones with sport courts and other
things that have come in and at least there you can say you know they may not have known but
you know we make adjustments there. My concern here is, the biggest concern, I think the
driveway design that was in the, in the permit survey is very typical design. That many, many,
many homeowners have throughout the city and it’s designed specifically because it minimizes
the overall surface area of the driveway. Could the other design, the existing design be
preferable? Perhaps and I think if my, you know the concern is, this was a mistake. It was a
mistake according to the Planning Commission minutes that it was done by the contractor who
was working for the home builder. How many mistakes are going to occur? I’d like to find a
way to accommodate the homeowner and try to find out something that can occur but I have
difficulty here doing that from the standpoint that you know, to come in after the fact a mistake
was made and Councilman Litsey I think you know, the issues shouldn’t even be in front of the
council here. It’s a, if a mistake was made that was, if another mistake was made that didn’t,
wasn’t because of a restriction that the city had put in place long before the permit was ever
requested back at the time that the, you know these ordinances have been in place for years and
years and at the time of platting, you know we wouldn’t be here and I think this was an issue. I
struggle even with item B, though I’d like to find and we have found in the past some
accommodation, someway to try to come up with something that helps and find some flexibility
from, with the staff and I don’t know if anything exists there. I’d like to think it would. We’ve
got, I guess Option B is a partial but you know my concern there is the next homeowner’s going
to come in and want a patio, you know and whether they knew or not. Or there are a number of
homes yet to be built in this neighborhood and the fact that we’ve already seen on, with 4
neighboring lots, 3 requests for variances on the exact same issue, this is a problem that’s been
identified and with more open lots there, now how do we respond to the other, to the other 2
neighbors that said, you know we said stay within the 25. What if we had given them .8 or 1
percent more than that as well? I mean that was an issue we were dealing with at the time. So
I’m really struggling with trying to find the justification to go forward. The desire here is
different functionality, and I appreciate that. I mean I’ve got a driveway that’s like the, you
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
know with the two and the third stall and I appreciate what you’re speaking to but I have trouble
saying that functionality or use is now a hardship. So I would certainly, if there’s some other
options that might be available I’d certainly be willing to table this to let staff work with the
applicant to try to find a way to come within the 25. To try to find a way to avoid a variance
here because I think that’s the issue is, it has more effects than just on Mr. Gleason. I feel for
Mr. Gleason. I mean he’s been caught in the middle here but I think that there needs to be a way
to try to find, try to find something else if we can so I prefer to try to table this this evening. See
if the applicant can work with the staff and come up with some alternatives that might work. I
don’t know if they’re out there and if they’re not they’re not but we’re going to have issues going
forward in this neighborhood and I’d like to find a way not to start providing variances because
of mistakes. You know, so that’s my thought and I’d be open to other ideas from the council.
Or further thoughts and comments if there’d be, if other members of council would be willing to
let staff take a little bit of time and see if they can come up with an alternative to find a way to fit
it within the ordinance. And maybe that’s not the case and if that’s not the case we may get it
back with the same proposal but that would be my proposal at this point in time. Councilwoman
Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: And I’m willing to give staff more time to work with it but Mayor I
think you bring up a good point that this seems to be a pattern that’s developing. A serious
pattern that’s developing and staff and council or someone needs to come up with a solution to
where we’re not meeting our every new neighbor in this neighborhood on these terms and I’m
not sure how that is done but you know the good news is we’re probably catching it now before
we get 10 homes in this neighborhood and they all have problems. But I think that something
needs to be done to ensure that this doesn’t happen to another homeowner.
Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Tjornhom I appreciate those comments because that’s exactly
the case. This is the third one now out of 4 homes on this street, but there are other homes in this
area too and you know the rules I think were pretty clear at the beginning. When the plat was
designed and the size of the lots that were created and the size of the homes that they were
planning to put on there and we’re seeing, you know Councilman McDonald talked to that.
That’s why I think this is just another one and I hate to extend the process. I can appreciate Mr.
Gleason’s frustration but that’s what I would prefer at this point is that we, let’s see what we can
do from a creativity standpoint. See if there’s someway to get them into compliance at the 25%.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: And Kate, I don’t mean to go, become a planning commissioner
again or go back to the plat but when these were platted, were patios in the back included?
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, we do require a 10 by 10.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yeah. That’s what I thought.
Kate Aanenson: This did meet that. We’ve also required in all these types of projects, now that
they show typical home plans that are going in. Different projects have different styles of homes
so on all projects now we ask that the, kind of the illustrative plans that these are the types of
homes that we’d be building on these lots. Now again, these were kind of the last of the ones
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
that we’ve done with the larger footprints home styles up there in a highly desirable, beautiful
area. Again we don’t want to make this our meet and greet either with our residents either so.
Mayor Furlong: No. And I think that’s why part of the meeting, part of the look for flexibility
would be to work with, work with the other builders in that area and try to find ways to avoid
meeting all of our new residents in this way. Okay, so I would certainly entertain a motion to
table if somebody would like to make it, or I could make it myself.
Councilman McDonald: I’ll make the motion to table it. I can support that. All I want to do is
see the problem solved and again like I say I’m tired of seeing this particular development come
up before us and causing problems and so I’d like to see a solution. So I will make a motion to
table it.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second?
Councilman Litsey: Second.
Mayor Furlong: Made and seconded. Any other discussion on that?
Roger Knutson: Mayor?
Mayor Furlong: Yes.
Roger Knutson: We’ll need an extension. We’re out of time before your next meeting.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: So you’d have to get something from the applicant.
Roger Knutson: In writing granting us an extension until the end of December.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Is that something that the applicant would be interested in doing at this
point? Are you officially the applicant or is Mr. Gleason or who’s the applicant here?
Carol Toohey: We filled out the application on behalf of the homeowner.
Roger Knutson: Maybe both could sign them on behalf of.
Mayor Furlong: Alright. Can you write up something quick while we play the Jeopardy jingle.
Kate Aanenson: Let’s see if they want to grant it first.
Mayor Furlong: I’m sorry, did you have another comment?
Carol Toohey: I have a question Mayor, council members.
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
Mayor Furlong: Certainly.
Carol Toohey: Just a clarification. What do you mean alternatives to meet the 25%? Are you
talking about what Councilmember Ernst was doing like you know maybe some alternative
landscape that helps stormwater so they can keep the driveway or alternative materials or, just
some clarification on what you’re looking for.
Mayor Furlong: I mean currently within our ordinance I don’t think those options are available.
Kate Aanenson: That’s correct.
Mayor Furlong: Correct, so we need to find something that meets within the ordinance would be
my thought.
Carol Toohey: Okay. So you’re talking more like materials.
Kate Aanenson: Hard cover.
Councilman Litsey: Hard cover.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: I think staff would probably answer that.
Mayor Furlong: I’m sorry? Yeah, work with, I think working with staff to try to find a way to
find, to get into compliance.
Councilwoman Ernst: Well I guess I’d like to get a better idea of what that is. Does that mean
that potentially he might have to remove some of that hard surface?
Kate Aanenson: Potentially…
Mayor Furlong: Well, I’m looking to alternatives but I want to you know, for reasons I stated
earlier, without going back and repeating what I said, I think that I’d like to take some time for
you and especially as the builder as Lennar, not only here but with the other ones. Work with
staff and let’s figure out how we can avoid these situations for the benefit of Mr. Gleason and all
his to be neighbors as well. And keeping it consistent with our ordinance and what the
expectations are.
Carol Toohey: Well we are interested in looking at working with the City so that he can keep the
use of his driveway but also being in compliance with the ordinance.
Mayor Furlong: That’d be great. That’s be great. While we play the Jeopardy song here for a
little bit longer, Mr. Knutson is working on.
Roger Knutson: One more word. It’s hard enough to read Mayor when I write slow.
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Chanhassen City Council – November 23, 2009
Mayor Furlong: Make sure, Mr. Knutson, if you could make sure, we only have one meeting in
th
December so, which is the 14, so if we could extend this to perhaps January, or whatever time
would be sufficient. Otherwise we’re effectively just doing a 3 week. Maybe we can come back
at our December meeting, that’d be great to try to finish it out.
Kate Aanenson: That’s what we were just talking about.
Mayor Furlong: But I want to make sure there’s sufficient time that we don’t have to get to
another extension.
Kate Aanenson: Correct, because we only have one meeting in December. We were just talking
about that so we may have to ask for another extension.
th
Todd Gerhardt: January 20 works.
Kate Aanenson: When?
th
Todd Gerhardt: January 20.
Kate Aanenson: That’s better. Signed.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. A motion’s been made to table and it’s been seconded.
Councilman McDonald moved, Councilman Litsey seconded that the City Council approve
a motion to table the after the fact hard surface coverage variance request for 2111
nd
Pinehurst Drive (Lot 22, Block 1, Pinehurst 2 Addition). All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
CITY CODE AMENDMENTS: APPROVE AMENDMENTS TO CHAPTER 20,
ZONING CONCERNING COMMUNITY COMMERCIAL AND
REGIONAL/LIFESTYLE COMMERCIAL ZONING DISTRICTS.
Kate Aanenson: Thank you Mayor, members of the City Council. We’ve discussed with the
completion of the City’s comprehensive plan, the implementation of two new commercial zoning
districts. What we have for you tonight, after the review by the Planning Commission, numerous
meetings and work sessions with the City Council, the draft of that, of those two ordinances.
One being the community commercial and the other being the lifestyle or the regional
commercial zoning district. The Planning Commission held their public hearing on November
rd
3 to review these and they did recommend 6 to 0 to approve. What I’ll do is circle back to their
comments as kind of we walk through the two zoning districts themselves. Specifically the
comments that were received were on the regional commercial zoning district so. The
community commercial zoning district is, in the staff report we went through, we gave you a lot
of background information regarding the retail study that McComb’s did recommending that we
do need some additional property in the downtown. That was the impetus for both commercial
zoning districts, that based on the market analysis the city could support additional acreage in the
core of downtown as we were running out and again this would extend and compliment that
26