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EDA 1998 08 13CHANHASSEN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 13, 1998 Chairman Boyle called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Gary Boyle, Jim Bohn, Nancy Mancino, Mark Senn, Steve Berquist, Mark Engel, and Mike Mason MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Asst. Executive Director APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Bohn moved, Berquist seconded to approve the Minutes of the Economic Development Authority meeting dated June 25, 1998 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. CONSIDER ESTABLISHING THE ROLE~ RESPONSIBILITY AND MISSION OF THE EDA. Boyle: ! believe after our last meeting that there was some concern, as ! see it, and then we'll take it on further for discussion, identifying if nothing else the role that the EDA plays in terms of City Council and Planning Commission primarily. So if we could probably define that as one of our objectives... Mancino: Yeah, I'd really like to spend as an EDA concerning what it is we do. Do we want to continue doing it? I'd also like to spend some time on TIF .... That we get past the point of just giving TIF to everyone. That we have a set of criteria that has to be met and what we want to accomplish with TIF. The City has never done that so I'd like... Other cities certainly do have... Bohn: We had something like that before. Mancino: We did? Bohn: Yes. Mancino: Then let's take a look at what we've got. Bohn: ! don't know what happened to it. Mancino: I've never seen it. Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: ! do a long time ago, something along that line. Boyle: Probably what may have been important is a copy of the goals which might play into that also. ! meant to call and ask about that.., bring it into perspective a little bit too. Mancino: Maybe like next month we could meet a few more times. A couple times or something and start working on that. Gerhardt: Sure. Berquist: ! am trying to figure out.., good example of, the best example that ! can think of in the recent, the only example ! can think of in the recent past...with the Bloomberg boys. I'm not certain that particulating specific goals would have allowed us to avoid that entirely but perhaps it would have helped. Mancino: Actually ! hope it would... Senn: Well and the issue really isn't just TIF. The issue is what public assistance do we want to provide for development, right. Mancino: Any and all included. And what other is there for...what else is available? ... Bohn: ! agree. You know our goals, we had goals every year we set up. Mancino: But I... Boyle: More defined. Mancino: Yes. Senn: Well the first definition is what is our mission. The second definition is what are the strategies to achieve it. And then that will play down to what goals and objectives are. And then there will be tasks beyond all that and really all we have in place right now is tasks. Boyle: What could staff do to help us prepare for this? Senn: ! would say bring in what we've got and then we've just got to roll up the sleeves and start going through it like we did with the Council. Boyle: Start with the goals and then? Senn: No, you start with the mission statement. Boyle: Start with the mission statement. 2 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Mancino: What we are and what we want to do. Senn: Then you go into the strategies and then from the strategies, then you know from the strategies you go down to the goals and objectives which the staff takes over more of a role at that point developing goals and objectives and tasks. Whereas the mission statement and the strategy is developed really by the commission. Staff' s not that involved in that. Boyle: Todd, when I first was interviewed and when you and Don talked to me, it seems to me that was the time that kind of gave the purpose...of the HRA as it stood. I believe I had something like that... But it seems to me there was something along those lines. Gerhardt: A lot of it probably was the TIF plans that we kind of used as our mission you know and our goals in there were spelled out you know. We're going to rebuild the roads. The infrastructure. Things like that and right now kind of the marching orders for the larger redevelopment district has been one that you know we're not going to provide any TIF to commercial development. You know with the Tires Plus and Applebee's scenario. The type of assistance has been well, Applebee's got $25,000.00 to help offset their sewer and water costs but Tires Plus didn't receive any. Richfield Bank and Trust didn't receive any. The bank down here that is TCF now didn't receive any. And so you know that's kind of been the marching order for the larger redevelopment district. Now the entertainment district per se was one that you know we had to cover our costs, or the cost that we had estimated for doing the parking lot and facade is kind of what the criteria was in establishing how much increment that we were going to give back to each of the developments, you know that we had estimated during the beginning of the project. So that was kind of our criteria that we used in determining the increment for there. In the past it was always the three year program. You know you get three years of increment to help offset those specials. And then after that it was, it could be used for a land write down you know because over the years the specials had been written down by the landowner and that left enough increment for land write down. So that's kind of a little bit of the history of what the criteria in the past has been for TIF. The big hurdles we have over here now is the bowling center and the way that's all looked, that whole game is going to change similar to the Frontier building. And they are still, no matter what they do, they're going to have to introduce some kind of boardwalk just because of the grade changes along that back side. So ! agree. ! think you know that we should establish a mission. Strategies and those could be our working drawings as we finish that area over there. There's still the possibility of this MLT building coming with some other office building in that area as we go through the parking analysis later on tonight. And we can even expand that district over to the old Pony/Pauly/Pryzmus site if anybody wants to do anything over there. And other than that, maybe you could take it over to the Kenny's building. You know expand the district that way. And then the future of the Dinner Theater. That building, ! don't know what the life expectancy of it is. It's wood frame and some metal building there so you know those things do have a life expectancy to them. Mancino: I will go just on record and say that I won't approve...because there is nothing that have had written that ! have been given that.., for whether or not we should be doing TIF... but won't sit down and say yes until ! have something in front of me...and what we want to do. Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: We're going into the tax path right now. I mean this whole conversation is the tax path. I mean we've been going through it for two years with the Council. Have you guys gone through a strategic planning process? I'm just curious. Boyle: No. Senn: Okay. ! mean essentially everything that Todd just reviewed is taxed. Okay? What we're going to do, at least we ended up doing on the Council is we ended up spending 2-3 meetings just deciding on a mission statement we could all live with. That's not, ! mean it sounds easy but it's not easy. Okay. So you start with a mission statement. Then you get into strategies. We've spent ! don't know how many meetings developing the strategies and then now translating that into priorities which is just the step we're at now after two years with the City Council. Okay? And ultimately, now when we're done with the prioritization of where we're at in the strategic plan, now it gets turned over to staff and says go prepare the goals and objectives and the tax. Okay. So what we're talking about here, ! hate to say ! mean is way off in the future in relationship to a strategic planning process as far as the EDA goes. Boyle: I hear two different things and I agree with everything you're saying but I'm hearing Nancy saying, well wait a minute. We're going to be asked to approve TIF but what is the price here? What are the guidelines? Where do we want to go? And that's a little bit different I think from what you're saying Mark. Senn: Not at all Gary because where you've got to start from is what's our mission and is our mission to provide incentives for public assistance for development and then define, okay when you go down and develop your strategies and your goals and objectives, you will define what's in that, you know what those incentives and circumstances should be. What those public assistance you know levels should be and in what situations and then you ultimately end up paying at the tax level which is does this tax meet you know that or doesn't it. But you've got to start way up here saying who are we trying to serve and what are we trying to accomplish effectively and then we have to develop the strategies as to how we're going to do that. You get into questions there like you know do we use TIF, don't we use TIF? Do we use public assistance? Don't we use public assistance? If we use it, where do we use it? I mean should it be just housing? Do we need to keep using it commercially or do we need to use it commercially in certain circumstances? I mean that's all going to be kind of hashed out in the strategic level you know before, and then you're going to get down to priorities from there and go from there. What I heard Nancy simply saying is that personally she's uncomfortable with making any more TIF decisions until we go through this process. I've always been that way so I have no problem saying I ditto that. Because the HRA. Boyle: ...go ahead. Senn: Well the HRA and the EDA have been functioning over a very, very old set of precepts which may or may not have any relevance as it deals with where we're at today. Boyle: But today's environment is a lot different than it was three years ago. 4 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: Correct. That's right. Mancino: Exactly. So if somebody comes in, we'll have to make up our minds. You know ! don't know about timing on any project or anything so ! say that not knowing. Again, ! have no clue and... Gerhardt: Well they're still a year away from deciding that they're going to lose their parking on the K-Mart side of TH 101 so they are looking for some temporary parking and that may come back to the EDA and the City Council for some direction on that. Boyle: But other than that you don't foresee anything in the very near future? Gerhardt: Well the only thing would be the bowling center. You know we met with their architect a couple weeks ago to start looking at what they envision their concept to be for that area. And we asked them to get us their working drawings together and bring it back so the EDA and the City Council can look at them and give direction. Continue to tell them how much emphasis that was put on the existing plan you know that was presented and how much that was like so. Senn: I'm just curious, they don't have any problem with the risk of spending all that money and doing all that work without even an inkling or an indication from us as to whether we will accept that even potential use because we haven't even finished a, you know we haven't finished the studies on the general area yet as far as parking or traffic or anything goes? Gerhardt: Well they were a part of parking analysis. Senn: Yeah, but that's just you know how many parking stalls have you got and where does it go? ! mean it's a much broader, broader issue there as it relates to the traffic and what the area can handle or not handle and with what public systems and what infrastructure improvements and everything else. Gerhardt: Well they understand that. You know they know that there's going to have to be some traffic analysis done. But first they want to you know get your blessing on the uses. Senn: They won't. I'll tell you that right now. They won't get mine. Gerhardt: Okay. Senn: Because we need to answer the questions first on how we're going to, whatever use goes in there, and the activity it's going to create, is our infrastructure going to support it? Our infrastructure's barely supporting what's there now. And now you're talking about creating uses there that will you know put a lot more stress on that infrastructure. Gerhardt: ! don't know. Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Boyle: Well they should probably be made aware of that, ! hope. Senn: Well that's what ! say. You know sometimes ! think we get too far out in front with people kind of saying you know let' s go down this road because we think that' s the way it goes and ! mean, our issue should be more of one if we need time to really sit back and get all the answers, ! think we ought to get the answers before we're providing direction to people to run off and start putting plans together. Bohn: What area does the EDA cover? What land area? Gerhardt: You basically have the Frontier building. The two buildings behind the Dinner Theater. The bowling center. The hotel expansion area only and the current movie theater site. And then the parking lots around those areas. Mancino: Can we get just some base before we go forward on the... Gerhardt: ... non-council week. But you meet every Monday so. Mancino: ! mean ! would willing in September to make it you know two Thursday to kind of. Boyle: Fine. Like the 17th and 24th or something like that? Senn: Where are we, September? Mancino: Yeah. Boyle: Right now it looks good to me. Mancino: Can everybody look at September 17th and 24th. Bohn: That's a Thursday, right? Mancino: Yeah. That's a Thursday night. Boyle: Well Thursday's not a problem for me to meet earlier. That's no problem. I'm in town. Bohn: Yeah. In fact ! would prefer earlier. Senn: Well that's what we, we didn't know why these were being set for 7:00 other than we thought it was to accommodate you guys. We like to start at 5:30. Gerhardt: Well tonight it was 7:00 because Fred Hoisington couldn't be here until 8:00 when we picked this date. Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Bohn: 5:30 is. Boyle: Yeah, ! have no problem with that. Bohn: 5:00 is. Mancino: Senn: Bohn: Mancino: Gerhardt: Mancino: Gerhardt: Boyle: So 6:00 on the 17th? Mancino: 6:00 on the 17th. Boyle: ! could do either one. Mancino: At 5:00? Bohn: 5:00. Senn: Okay. Boyle: Is that okay with you Todd, 5:30? Tell our consultants in the future that's our regular meeting time. 5:00 or 5:30. Well Todd, you have a 5:00 on the 17th with the school district. Yep. How long do you think that will take? About one hour so we'd be done like at 6:00. And 5:00 or 5:30 on the 24th? Then in the meantime let's all jot down some things so that we don't. Senn: Put together your concept of a mission statement because that's what we're going to have to hash out in the first place. Boyle: Okay, what we think the mission should be. Mancino: What kind of... Boyle: Four or five years ago we paid to have some guy come in and kind of guide us in the direction of putting a mission statement together for the city and our objectives and our strategies and goals. Whatever happened? Did we really? Is there anything in there that would assist because that got into all areas as ! recall. ! sat on several on those sessions. Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Gerhardt: I think we're better off just starting from scratch. Senn: That's what we did at the council. Mancino: Well actually we didn't start from scratch at council. done two years earlier and went through... Senn: Boyle: We went through what had been So on the 17th and the 24th. And that's 6:00 on the 17th and 5:00 on the 24th. Is there guidelines that, ! mean we talked about. redevelopment districts that exist. Boyle: Whether TIF is involved or not? Senn: Yeah, TIF is immaterial. Berquist: The Gateway, Weather Service. Mancino: Well someone will need to facilitate it. One person to facilitate it because we're... Boyle: Otherwise we're all going to go off in many different directions. Mancino: Yeah. Todd, would you like to facilitate the meeting? Gerhardt: Sure. Mancino: Okay. Bohn: What happened to the, now the EDA doesn't cover the old HRA district? Gerhardt: They do. Mancino: That would be good for you to just... Gerhardt: Yeah, we'll bring in maps...to what you're responsible for. Bohn: Because ! was thinking about the Kenny building. Kenny's building and... Senn: ... look at it as the EDA, we have responsibility for any and every development or redevelopment district in the city of Chanhassen that's been created. Because the EDA is a broader authority than the HRA was and it assumed everything the HRA did. So effectively now everything that was outside the HRA that was city, the EDA does it. So ! mean effectively you're looking at the big picture so what you really need is a picture of all the development districts and Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Boyle: That's interesting. Gerhardt: Yeah, we'll put together a map showing your boundaries of both districts. Mancino: Actually that would be really nice. To one, have a map. Number two, if you could give us something written as to... and this is what you're responsible for. Not so much the role of the EDA but the responsibility of the EDA. Senn: Physical. Mancino: Yep. Berquist: Well let me throw another curve at you here. Is it possible, or do we want to even look at the land that's in the rest of the Chanhassen area that could be guided or CI or something that we could possibly create a district out of?. Mancino: That's a good idea. Gerhardt: Well those would have to be economic development districts. Senn: Well but.., caution you on one thing. Berquist: The way I understand it, this EDA, this is an economic development authority. This board didn't supplant the HRA. It simply, the HRA evolved into, these guys now have as much to say about the weather service and Gateway as the City Council does. That's the way I understand the modifications. Gerhardt: Correct. But the way I understand it from our attorneys, if we created like the McGlynn district and the Hennepin County tax increment district and the gateway district, you're not responsible of those. That's solely the City Council because of TIF. Now if you were to create those as your responsibility, ! think there needs to be a little bit more paper shuffling for that to occur. Senn: Yeah, but at the same time though we said effectively we're going to advocate the discussion on many of those issues related to that to the EDA as an issue. Now but, how would say it? What you want to get Todd to do is, ! think at this point is that is to give you a historical picture. If you get into proceeding forward and saying what's left, I'll tell you what. You'd better start identifying housing districts too. Okay. Because we're going to have housing districts and affordable housing districts and everything else. That's part of what we need to develop through our mission and our strategy. So let's not try to get too far ahead of ourselves. Let' s just simply identify what exists now and get the history there so everybody understands what the history is so we can go forward from there. Boyle: And we're not going off like this, that and the other thing. Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: Right. Boyle: We can focus on where we want to go rather than, okay. Mancino: And we want to know very specifically... Senn: The EDA can do anything the Council directs them to do. Gerhardt: What's that? Senn: The EDA can do anything the Council directs them to do. I like that. That's the answer we're giving. Gerhardt: I don't think the Council needs to direct them. I think you have your own budget. You know you can operate within those guidelines. Boyle: Yeah, I guess we all do. So we know .... a lot of this overlap that's going to happen between the two. Define our roles and with that we can have a mission. Gerhardt: I'll get a definition of what EDA can and can't do. I'll get the statute on the roles and responsibilities of the EDA. Boyle: Okay. So you say Fred won't be here until 8:00? Prior to that? Mancino: ... public safety for a minute. Gerhardt: The 17th and 24th, what do you want me to bring for that first meeting? Besides I've got, I'm going to bring all the TIF maps. I'm going to get an opinion on the roles and responsibilities ofEDA's. Can's and can'ts. Can's and can't do's. Mancino: It was very comfortable for me at the fire station too because... We went over to the fire station. We all just sat around. Bohn: We had the HRA meetings there before. Mancino: It's more comfortable. Boyle: Especially for that type of discussion, yeah. Mancino: ...that we put up and build on. Bohn: I also would like to see is, all the money that we bought property, the HRA bought property and, or sold property. We bought property and we sold it. I'd like to see where all the money that, from the selling of that property, where that money went to and exactly how much it was. I'm curious as to where, we sold a lot of property in Chanhassen. We bought a lot of property. I'd like to see where those dollars are. Individually as this, the dollars from say. 10 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Boyle: Senn: Bohn: Boyle: Bohn: That's a good point Jim and also, which we haven't done in a long time... ... hearing right? Right. Up to date dollar sheet so we kind of. I'd like to see it broken down as to each individual parcel that we bought. How much we bought say for the bowling alley property. Mancino: What year you bought it? How much? ... Bohn: Right, and where that money is now. Senn: What's there now and what's the tax benefit or whatever. going to kind of give you a good picture. Mancino: Todd, how many parcels... That's going to tell you, that's Bohn: Bought a lot of property. They bought that whole area where that street that borders where the Holiday station is and all the way down. Senn: You bought most of West 78th. Bohn: And the same thing with West 78th Street. We bought a lot of properties in there. Boyle: That would probably help some too to kind of get us where we're going. Bohn: We almost had the property bought and sold where Village on the Pond is. Remember there was going to be a convention center built there and we were going to, headed there to buy Convention center? that property. Berquist: There was? Bohn: Yep. Boyle: Metrodome. Gerhardt: Mancino: Berquist: What's the objective of this study? To look at it, to see where we've been and what we've got. Have you been here since it's inception Jim? 11 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Bohn: I started... (A tape change occurred at this point in the discussion.) REVIEW ENTERTAINMENT BLOCK PARKING STUDY. Senn: ... not just a study of counting parking spaces to see what worked or didn't work with, because I mean creating the parking space is one issue but getting people in and out of them is another issue. And the work that's been done to date is very complete as it relates to the parking issue but it still doesn't answer any of the questions as it relates to how are we going to handle the movement of the traffic to and from, even if we create the parking stalls. Boyle: Mark I don't, I know there was talk about traffic but I don't know if there was a traffic quote study done. But there's been a lot of talk about it. Gerhardt: I think now that Fred has done his extensive study of the area and I think this data would be very helpful for some type of engineer like Strgar-Roscoe to take that and to do traffic counts. You know right turn. Left turn warrants for signals or stop signs or whatever. You know. Turning lane movements. Things like that. Fred, isn't that typically what happens when you do a parking study? Isn't usually the next step a traffic analysis? Fred Hoisington: It can be. But I think what, based on what I see happening there, we spent all this time, there is no significant problem... However, if there's a bigger issue here of traffic... I mean you really want to attack the problem associated with the... Senn: You mean as it sits now? Fred Hoisington: As it sits now. Senn: Yeah. I'm not going to disagree with you but. Fred Hoisington: ... Senn: No, because they're not even filling the place half up. But I'm just saying if you now double the size of the place and fill it all up. Fred Hoisington: I don't think you want a traffic problem associated with that. Senn: You don't? Fred Hoisington: I don't. Senn: Boy, that's surprising. 12 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Fred Hoisington: I just don't think you're going to have a problem. Boyle: That has been addressed Todd. ! remember, it goes back a ways. It might go back about the time that Bloomberg gave that first concept and because someone. Bohn: Well we talked about the traffic only having a one way in and one way out too because we wanted. Boyle: Market Boulevard was a bottle neck going in and then when it got to West 78th, because of having another lane there, ! remember all this but it was an outside person giving us this report. Gerhardt: ! know a lot of analysis had to go in when the movie theater was built and. Fred Hoisington: ... always felt there needed to be doing...but I've always had a problem... Boyle: Well ! think we'd all agree on that. Senn: And you think that if this thing proceeds that you can continue to function on Market Boulevard the way you are now with no signalized intersections or anything? Fred Hoisington: What ! see on Market Boulevard right now, at least in my experience, because of the difficulties with left turns northbound on Market and westbound on... add an office component to that.., observe the traffic and getting.., when the theater's there and.., no big deal because it's all night time... Boyle: Mark, if you don't mind ! think what we'll do then is just let Fred, or Todd do you have something you want to say prior to that? Gerhardt: No. Boyle: Why don't we just get into it. Fred Hoisington: Okay Gary. What ! want to do is give you just kind of a short version because this is what, this is such a classic example of shared parking and how it's supposed to work. When we talk about the new urbanism and so forth and trying to figure out ways for the same, or for different businesses to use the same parking spaces and try to keep the amount of hard coverage down.., may not look like the new urbanism but you're doing it here. This is one of the greatest examples of shared parking I've ever... Here's the situation. Last April on a Saturday night the generally speaking was the peak time we found on each of the study nights was at about 8:00. And it's because it's the biggest movie theater showing is the 7:00 showing and then after 7:00, or after that 7:00 show then it dips. What we found is that at 8:00 on a Saturday in April we had 687 parking spaces filled. What we did then is we took that 687 and we calibrated it to the uses that are there. We tried to allocate a certain amount to cinema, a certain amount to the Filly's and a certain amount to the Dinner Theater and so forth and so we came up with spaces per seat and spaces per 1,000 square feet. Just two different ways of allocating parking for those 13 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 facilities. And then what we did is we simply added a doubling... 2,400 seats instead of 1,300 seats and what happened at 8:00 on a Saturday in April was it went up to 943 spaces. That's an increase from 687 to 943 because we lost the night time at Filly's and...and you add a night time user and so you didn't really add much demand. It was a little bit of additional demand, about 70 spaces was all. All it says is that the movie theaters are a little bit higher users than Filly's and the bowling center... Mancino: Todd, where are those numbers here? Because I'm looking. Fred Hoisington: Those numbers are all in there but they're in those charts and so forth. So Nancy what ! can do is ! can give you copies. ! have some that ! can give you copies of in this case. Then if you add both cinema and MLT, you only get up to 953 parking spaces on a Saturday in April. Well remember in April... lowest point in the year for things like cinema and the lowest month of the year for...we've added about 30%... for December event and we've assumed that all of the banquet facilities are full.., every place except the movie theaters... Ultimately what they do is you have, you'll have...that's full... 9:00 showing is not full and the earlier show is not full. Mancino: ! have an anomaly. ! have an exception. Fred Hoisington: Oh you do? What is that? Mancino: In Columbus, Ohio... all the time and they have tremendous parking problems. Fred Hoisington: Now are you talking about the multi-screen? Mancino: Yes. Fred Hoisington: So then every theater is full all the, at the same time? Mancino: ! can tell you at Thanksgiving weekend, etc... ! can't tell you every single but ! can, tremendous parking problems. It seemed like everything was sold when we tried to get there. Fred Hoisington: Here's what happens.., and what we found was, and then they did it again for us in June because June is... and what they found was, if they're above, there was a greater...but what they found was that there were lots more people attending.., they were attending more of the shows were.., so it' s very rare that you will have eight theaters.., totally full at the same time because you have one that's very popular and then you have some others that are kind of moving along at the normal. Mancino: But Fred maybe this is looking at it a different way...the place was so full that not only were the parking places...but there was such a long line trying to get in... so you're right. It could have been that it wasn't completely full but... Fred Hoisington: ...there was a line outside the theater one night when Gayle and I came over... 14 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Mancino: And that's exactly... Senn: Go back to your analogy of, you were using an analogy of June to April being equal? Fred Hoisington: They're not equal. June is the biggest cinema month of the year. Senn: Well June, July and August, yeah. Fred Hoisington: Well no, July is okay. Not anywhere near the June peak. And then you have a significant period actually during... So what we're saying is for those peak months we bumped attendance by 30% but we found that it was only in the actual counts of patrons during the 7:00 shows it was only about 20% this year. Senn: But you can't go by existing, ! mean you can't really go by existing conditions when they' re just opening. Fred Hoisington: Well yeah you can. In this case we counted on, or we had.., counts in April and we were very aware.., because it was the first month. But that's why when we counted again, the movie theater... It had only gone up about 20%... and we're actually going up 30% for 7:00. Senn: Well, ! mean your biggest time in the theater business, most concentrated time in the theater business is basically from around November 20th through January, you know right after New Years. Okay and you do approximately oh, you do approximately 40% of your business on a concentrated basis within that time frame. Then you do about another 40% of your business between the months of June, July and August. And then the other 20% of your business in a theater is spread out between all the other months besides that. Fred Hoisington: But remember we're counting during, the actual number of people there going to a movie and/or the number of... for the 7:00 show .... deciding is that during the, from April to the peak months.., lot more people attending but they're attending more time.., doesn't go up that much. It goes up but it doesn't go up that much. Boyle: 8:00 peak. 8:00 p.m. peak does not jump like you would get, the big bump doesn't all happen at 8:00 p.m. Fred Hoisington: That's exactly right. Senn: ... same time. When people are coming to the 9:00 and people are leaving from 7:00. That's your peak time. Fred Hoisington: That's when we count them. That's when they count the cars. So we're taking that into account. If you look at and see how that doubling up occurs. 15 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: ! understand but you're counting a situation that hasn't even built a business yet. So ! mean ! get the feeling you're basing all your assumptions on the fact that you're going to keep these low attendance levels and you're not. Fred Hoisington: Mark, they actually should be higher.., and it will all depend on the movie. mean I... Titanic maybe three times. Senn: Everybody had more prints of the movie so they could show it in multiple theaters. Fred Hoisington: But the fact is, all the rest of them wouldn't and everything else it doesn't do that well so...we've been talking to the owners here for...what his actual numbers are from... would have expected this to be higher than normal... Boyle: So you're taking history and you're taking the current.., current data that suggested what it would be if there was 16 theaters. Is that kind of where we're going from here? Fred Hoisington: 16 theaters... Senn: And how many parking stalls are you saying are available for those 2,400 people? Fred Hoisington: We've got that in that one chart in the report. Not the big ones but the, we look at this one for supply and demand chart. If you look at the cinema, restaurant, Frontier, you have supply of 551 spaces. Demand is 543. That's figured on these numbers. Senn: I understand. Okay, but the thing that I was really having trouble kind of figuring out is that, ! mean ! understand the approach you've taken which is looking at the specific situation here but when ! look at the conclusion you're reaching through this specific situation, it basically turns around and says that the zoning ordinances which every community in this metropolitan area has are all full of crap. Fred Hoisington: Ah yeah. Senn: Which almost everybody requires effectively you know a 3 to 1 you know scenario as it relates to parking stalls. And, no, no. Fred Hoisington: Can I... Senn: But and, many of those facilities okay, for example the Plymouth facility. Okay, that's a fairly new one. Has the biggest parking disasters and traffic problems that exist. Okay. Well, it's pretty much on their ordinance because there was a lot of discussion about it and they did some kind of, they did a partial shared parking situation with the Cub deal but that was a shared parking situation that still had to meet the, you know meet pretty much the ordinance requirement and like ! say it's a disaster so ! mean. Gerhardt: By Cub? 16 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: Yeah. Gerhardt: They've got to be short on parking. You can barely see the parking lot. ! mean it's all building and then they've got Applebee's and everything else along there. It looks like they were short in the beginning. Senn: Well ! mean again, part of that shared, part of that was the shared parking situation they allowed you know effectively because of the Cub lot and stuff but. Fred Hoisington: How many spaces do they have... Senn: ! think it's 12 up there but ! mean it's. Fred Hoisington: We're talking some pretty big numbers here. Pretty big numbers. Senn: But ! mean ! look at it and say your sitting at 1 per 5. ! mean that defies every rule that everybody's used in the theater business for more years than ! remember. Fred Hoisington: When you say 1 per 5, we've got other parking here. Actually we've got 551. Senn: Well ! was using round numbers. 500. Fred Hoisington: ... 1 per 4. And if you look at the book they will say.., someplace between 1 per 3 and 1 per 4 and if you figure out how many people are actually there and translate that into.., and for every seat in the place...We're talking about a lot of parking spaces that are available... You can end up with a situation where as I've indicated... Bohn: Some of those parking places will be taken in the winter time by snow. Gerhardt: ...if they need it. That's a maintenance thing. Bohn: It doesn't always happen. Boyle: ! mean if the hottest movie that ever showed up came in and they filled every movie theater to capacity and whatever the ratio was, there were different parking spots. That's kind of what I'm hearing. Fred Hoisington: ... every seat in the place. Berquist: In the middle of the movie, you're right. In the middle of the movie. Fred Hoisington: Yep. That's what would have to happen. Berquist: In the beginning you'd need more than that. A lot more than that. 17 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Fred Hoisington: Otherwise... Your only concern it seems to me if...you have parking all over the... Senn: Yeah, and if you start parking in that you're going to have lawsuits filed just like they've been filed elsewhere. Retailers hate theaters because they start taking up the parking close to their stores and they're not customers. And the customers who are coming to their stores can't park there then. And I'll tell you what, it takes about two months for that to happen and then you see a lawsuit filed and ! can show you a hundred examples of that just in this area. Boyle: Mark, do you feel that there's a shortage of parking spaces? Senn: ! think that we're based, ! sit there and look at all the years of a standard and ! look at that standard and ! look across the board of theaters and most theaters in heavy commercial areas have serious traffic and parking problems. Okay. And that's based on the industry standards on the 1 to 3 pretty much parking spaces, okay. Now ! see a scenario coming in here and the thing that really disturbs me is we're making all these assumptions, assuming that we're going to be somehow different than the rest of the world. Boyle: ! didn't read that ! guess. Senn: Well we are. We're different. ! mean when you start slapping on a ratio that's more you know between 1.4 and 1.5, ! mean that's a fairly substantial departure from what has been the normal standard. And when you go to all those other places, and maybe my comment is I've spent too much time going to a lot of those places and studying and looking at them because, but that's because I'm in the theater business. Okay but to me it defies. ! look at, I'm not going to dispute his numbers but these guys had the worst grand opening I've ever seen in the theaters that existed. It was unpublicized. It was un everything so they never, ! mean we had to read, normal theaters that we open, every seat in the damn place was full for the first month. Month and a half. But you've got to publicize and you've got to develop your business that way. These guys never did it. Boyle: But even if that happened. Senn: Then ! think we've got a problem. Boyle: Well that's what I'm trying to get to. Do we have a problem here if that indeed happened?... Berquist: Look at the alternatives. Assuming that we do have a problem, you talk about the shopping center. From what ! understand there's some common ownership between some of the principles of the center and... It may be very possible they have a lot of cross easements to get it done. It may be possible to include that. Boyle: Gosh, maybe we could put a bridge. 18 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: No, but Steve that' s, and I'll give you wonderful examples of that .... no, but that's happened in the past and regardless of what the landlord, in the first place the landlord can't. My guess is they'd need their anchor tenant's approval for the leases to do that. Okay, which would be hard pressed to get. And the other.., even if they get it...tenants will sue the landlord immediately and they've done it in numerous other spots. Because it's a real issue. ! mean that grocery store, as soon as you end up with, you know a dozen people parking for a movie within a close walking distance to that store, I'll tell you what. They'll be really upset and teed off. ! mean that literally drives businesses like that out of business. Boyle: Do you think the bank, people park in the bank's parking lot and walk over there. Senn: Well the bank's not a big issue because the hours are different. But retail, retail's the real issue. ! mean what you do with, you know you talk about this complex and he talks about okay, we've got a hotel and you talk about how you're going to have meeting rooms and banquet facilities and all that sort of thing. I'll tell you what, yes you can put it all there and yes it can all go in business there. ! have a real question as to whether it's all going to survive in business there. Because people aren't going to come to banquets and all that sort of thing and walk large distances and return there for a banquet again. It won't happen because they can go out somewhere where they can get very close and have a lot more convenience and get the same thing. Berquist: Well there are other methods to solve that. You can have valet parking. You can do lots of stuff to do a banquet deal. Boyle: ! kind of agree with Fred. ! think there's a tremendous amount of parking facility. For most of the area... Berquist: ! want to believe everything that you say. ! mean don't read me wrong. I'm not as cynical as some folks would be regarding your study. But ! know like over at Lake Ann for instance is a perfect example of what concerns me. And we have one soccer field over there and between, if you have a game that starts at 6:00 and another one starts at 7:30, from 7:15 until quarter to 8:00, there is no parking. It's great after that. Or before that but from 7:15 to quarter to 8:00, you cannot find a place and you've got people parking on the grass. They get tickets. It's a nightmare. And the same sort of thing, and my concern is that the same sort of thing might happen. Fred Hoisington: One of the things that helps here...half of them don't start and the other half... so they minimize the amount of build-up... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Berquist: ...parking space. Is that right? Is that what ! read in there? Scenarios 1, or A and B. Gerhardt: 515 is the supply. 572 is the demand for the Dinner Theater and... 19 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Berquist: So over 60 spaces. 1,000 square, well whatever. I'm not sure what that over 60 spaces. It needs a lot more parking length than that. 500 and some odd. But you know a complex like MLT for instance. They start relatively early. They go relatively late. Senn: Do they run a double shift? Berquist: Sometimes they'll run double shifts, depending upon what the demand is. They talk to virtually all parts of the country so they're not all leaving at 4:00 to 5:00. Senn: No, but don't they run a double shift during your peak times of the year? December and that sort of thing. Berquist: Ah! Then they'll have, yeah. They'll have a lot more. During the middle of the day, they'll have a period of time when they'll have another 100 or 150 staff on during the middle of the day. Fred Hoisington: ... if this is an office building.., if that's not true and if we have things happening well into the evening, then I'm low. There's no question about it... Bohn: They could change their hours. Senn: Well three's worse there. ! mean you know better than ! do. I just judge on my, the driving by you know the TH 7 and TH 101 all the time which ! do constantly because that's the way my kids go to school and everything else and there's a lot of parking there in the evening during their peak seasons and it's long past normal business hours. ! mean they're running a fairly substantial booking reservations, I'm assuming you know in the early winter months. You know December-January type of thing and at least ! always see a bunch of cars there. ! mean that's not what I'm seeing here. Fred Hoisington: You're not seeing that here. Because I'm assuming for the most part an office will begin to tail off beginning at 4:00 and by the time... Berquist: ! think that largely may be true but ! think it may be closer to 15% to 20%. 20%-30% perhaps with some change over to it again. Because they'll stay open until 8:00 here, 6:00...but again it's not that many. ! mean all the senior support staff is gone. Fred Hoisington: ... if that' s the case, if that' s what' s happening... Berquist: But you've also said that you've got plenty so assuming that you're light in your, in the numbers that you've used as assumptions, does that lightness make it, change your scenario completely? Fred Hoisington: I don't think we're... 20 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: I think it's something you've got to consider. The other part I think you have to consider in relationship to the theater operation is when you take an 8 screen theater operation and make it a 16 screen theater operation, you're changing the, how do ! say this? ! mean it really changes the situation. There's never 16 screens of product available, okay and precisely you go back and talk about like the Titanic. Okay. Every screened theater that had 16 screens or whatever, when the Titanic was out, it was just unbelievable. But they were running the Titanic on 3 or 4 screens. And they did have every damn seat in every one of those theaters for every show full, okay. Because they can, because you have to have that. Okay. ! mean granted mine are, ! have five screen theaters in out state towns so I'm never going to have to double up on any product. ! mean ! would have probably wished ! had two Titanics because ! was full every damn night too but you can't book that way. Because there's enough product to fill up five screens. So when you have a 16 screen, you're doubling up all over the place on product. Because it's rare that you can even fill 8 with individual product at a given time. And all the rest is doubling or triple up or whatever. And so ! mean that's another scenario you've got to plan into the equation when you start talking about taking the synergy of an 8 screen and turning it into the synergy of a 16 screen. The other part that really concerns me too is. Fred Hoisington: ... see that happening here in the metro Mark? Senn: Examples of it? Willow Creek. Fred Hoisington: ! know that ! remember some...there have been a couple three and... Senn: Well what I'm trying to tell you Fred is that that's changing because the industry never played to 16 or 20 screen theaters before. ! mean a big multiplex theater a couple of years ago was six screens. And eight was pushing the envelope beyond what you could believe. Okay. Now the standard, here's what happened. In the industry, the way you book product is by zone. Because of the mega complexes coming in, the theater industry made a decision that said basically anything over 14 screens constitutes it's own zone. So if one theater company wanted to put 20 screens on this corner, another theater company can put 20 screens right across the street from it because they're two separate zones. And every movie company will furnish them product. See they wouldn't used to do that because it was all set up on zones and pecking order and who was there first and who had what rights and all that sort of thing. So those rules are all out the window. So now instead of making 1,500 copies or 2,000 copies, or even 2,500, which 2-3 years ago 2,500 copies was almost unheard of to go out in a first release on a movie. God, what did Titanic come out with? 3,500? 4,000 copies. ! mean that's becoming more of the type of standard. So what's happening is as there's more and more big screen theaters, there's more and more double up and there's more and more product forcing the double up. Because again you're not going to have 16 separate product. There's no way. They're not going to push that much out at one time. That's suicide. ! mean the movie industry also tries to time how the product comes out because you know granted it's a 12 month period and granted there are times that are better than worse but again your whole object is a head count of seats. ! mean the movie companies make a percentage effectively off of what, what you put in the seats. And so ! don't, that changes the complexity in my mind of how you look at this stuff. And ! sit down there now and I've gone down there probably more than a dozen times already to movies. Simply because it's handy and 21 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 convenient and you know we like to go to movies. And I'd rather drive there than drive downtown to the screening room and go to see them in advance because it's a pain in the butt to go downtown. But the, I go down there and when they do have good product on a busy night, I struggle now to get in and out of that place. Going to the early movie. And especially struggle badly to get out of it. And then I sit there and say oh my gosh, you know 16 screens here. You know double up on product. You know the retail is empty. They're now full. You know the rest of the space with other uses in it, I don't know. I can't help thinking of anything other than disaster because I don't see how it's going to work. Fred Hoisington: ...the additional access... Senn: More than two. I mean I even have trouble looking at that with two accesses. Because if you look at that site and say you're at peak, I mean you really ought to have more than two accesses in and out of that place. Fred Hoisington: ... Boyle: They go on shifts and that's... Senn: What happens Gary, everybody comes back to the city and says solve our problems. You created them. That's what happens. Boyle: First of all, I mean right now. Before we. Senn: No, I know. That's what I'm saying. Boyle: Before we go another step further. Now let's assume the worst scenario. Would we only authorize 3 more theaters? Or what do we do? Senn: I understand. Good question but I think we need to see the answers to that before we decide whether we should have 16 screens or 12 screens or 10 or whatever. Our issue isn't how many screens should be there. Okay, that's their issue because that comes down to how much money you make and how many seats you fill. Okay. Our issue is, given all the uses in the area and the building areas and potential uses then which we can't control beyond maybe a fund. You know what are the options? I mean I'll give you a good example. The primary tenant going into the Frontier building, which was a 9,000 square foot tenant, just pulled out of the deal. And is going elsewhere and they did so because they saw the impact of even the existing theater and the parking on the available parking to that building and said they couldn't survive there. So they pulled out of there. And they were going to be open some evening retail hours. And so I mean, it all comes down to, and you know I don't know. I've heard, I've heard like dance studio now going in there for a fairly significant use. That dance studio is going to be competing precisely with major traffic at the exact same times as the theater's going to be competing for major traffic. Identical. And you know, again that's one of those wonderful things. Go out to some dance studios that are just kind of located in a shopping center and look at the problems that occur when you've got a couple hundred kids coming and going all at the same time. 22 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Fred Hoisington: Well...do 1 per 3 for the whole thing and... Senn: Well it's one we need to come back to I think, yeah. Fred Hoisington: ... Bohn: Isn't Filly's going to, well Filly's is not, that's supposed to be a restaurant and that's going to add more traffic. Fred Hoisington: ... Senn: You need to picture far beyond what's there. I mean I really would encourage you guys to go drive up to some of these places like Plymouth and Willow Creek and stuff who have screens not even at that level, okay. But are in active commercial areas, which this area will become. One way or another it's going to be coming, okay. And look at how they function and what happens in relationship to the traffic movement and the parking. It's not a fun picture. I mean but again, either play it. Berquist: Where would 300 more... Fred Hoisington: Parking ramp. Senn: And again you've got a bigger issue. Even if you create 300 more parking spaces, have you got a way to get them in and out... Berquist: ...pave the land adjacent to Applebee's. We're chewing on numbers. Senn: We're chewing on numbers, that's right. And we're a city that's only half developed and there's a lot of residential developed not only in our city but around our city that's going to, will all impact this site the same. I mean we're really kind of in a unique situation right now. You've got Chanhassen sitting here and from a movie theater standpoint, okay. You've got three screens up at Excelsior. You've got what, 5 or 6 screens down at Chaska... and. Bohn: Senn: think. Waconia expanded too. Waconia expanded. Yeah, they're up to what? They went to 6 now didn't they from 5 I Boyle: They don't have any parking. Gerhardt: They're putting more out there. Senn: But I mean even if you take, and you've got Excelsior with 3. Let's see here, and then you've got Eden. Yeah, Excelsior's gone to 3. You've got Eden Prairie who is currently sitting 23 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 at, what is there 10 screens ! think at Eden Prairie. About 10 and they're going to 20, what is it 28 screens. Fred Hoisington: ... Berquist: Being in the business, do you see this trend continuing or do you see these people performing cannibalism on each other as time goes on? Senn: ! think, well ! mean Excelsior will either go to some kind of off brand picture or die. Berquist: Why?... Senn: Why? Because what will happen is the people who live and can walk to Excelsior and it's convenient to will utilize it but nobody else will because why wouldn't you go to a theater where you can. Berquist: Park. Senn: Well no, but there's other issues. Not only just parking. It's when you can go to theater X and know that picture so is going to be on four screens and you know you want to see that show the first run out and you know you can get into it because they're got four screens of it. Bohn: And they all start about a half hour different so you'll always be on time for the beginning of the show. You don't have to wait. Senn: That's right. You're programmed in at 10 minutes, 15 minutes at the most later to the next one. Plus some people, and you know some people really react, ! think this is way over rated myself with the stadium seating type of thing and the sound systems and that sort of thing. It's a real problem, for example these sound systems there's a certain element of people really want. ! mean you can only put those in theaters. If you put them in an old theater, you'll both be listening to each other's movies you know while they're going on. Okay, and you can't go back and retrofit that situation because it's much more complex than it sounds like. It's not simply building a thicker wall in-between and stuff so ! mean there's going to be some shake out in that but if you look at it in the long term, ! think Chanhassen actually becomes you know reasonably well positioned for it but it's going to be based on Chanhassen, Victoria's, Chaska, you know part of Chaska's. Shorewood, the rest of Shorewood and that sort of thing because that's all going to be what draws in here. Plus the other things we've got in Chanhassen as far as regional uses go like the Target and the Byerly's and all that sort of thing will bring people in the area and form the traffic patterns to get people to come back for the movies which is what happens. Berquist: So we have some of the basic building blocks for success. For the entire complex. Movie theater notwithstanding. Senn: Everything except the operators according to the radio, right? Did you hear the radio? 24 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Berquist: ! hear the radio but I'm... Anyway, so we need another 300 spaces is the net result. Boyle: Well to make everybody feel totally comfortable. Berquist: And Fred's quick answer, ! mean is that again being in the business, is that an adequate number? Given the potential density of options that are available within that area. Senn: ! can only tell you looking at other areas if everything clicked and went 100% right, the answer to that would be no Steve. But at the same time ! don't think you could ever design for that point. ! mean don't get me wrong. ! mean I'm not trying to... design to a level that you're going to have a slight, slight chance of achieving. But the standard, at least from what we've seen is adequate. Okay which means it covers you most the time but you're still going to have some big, you're still going to have problems at big times even with the standards. Now we're talking about changing the standard here and that makes me real nervous because there's a lot of history to that standard. Berquist: But I'm trying to get past that. Boyle: ... parking lot's full and they turn around and go someplace else... Senn: But the thing that bugs me about these types of issues the most, sitting on both sides of the fence, is that the time that we get stuck, you know now it's an easy decision to make. Because ! mean it's kind of like.., developer mode and not eveything's there and not everything's functioning at 100%. You know everything's not really going hog wild. Well when it goes hog wild, you know are they going to basically take out their checkbook and solve the problem? I'll guarantee you they won't. What they will do is they will come to the city and say city, you take out your checkbook and solve the problem. It's your problem, not ours. We're just the people trying to do business here. And ! have a hard time making decisions like that, that you look and say you know, you have a pretty good chance of coming back and biting you in the butt. Gerhardt: ! don't know. ! believe that there's, you know if I'm going to go to a movie, there's no way I'm going to park over in Festival parking lot and walk across the street and then across the parking lot to get to the front door. ! don't like movies that much. Berquist: What if you're going to go to the restaurant that's next to the movie theater? Gerhardt: Same thing when Applebee's is full. ! can't find a parking spot there, ! go onto the next one. Senn: But you'd go right next door to the bank, right? Gerhardt: Well, if the bank's open. Senn: That's where the overflow parking is. Because the bank's usually not open. 25 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Gerhardt: Not in the wintertime probably. Berquist: So you're saying that the Market Square is not a viable option at all. Gerhardt: I don't think so. Berquist: Well ! don't disagree. Gerhardt: Fred wouldn't even stay just because there was a long line out front. Berquist: ! understand and ! wanted to chastise him for that but. Gerhardt: ! don't blame him because ! think they, ! think if they're going to have the numbers Mark's talking about, they're never going to have enough staff to get the tickets in people's hands to get them through there. You know ! missed part of the movie waiting in that long line, you know. They've got to find, you know they finally opened up a second area for somebody else to give tickets. Fred Hoisington: ... Senn: Yeah, but that's efficiency of handling the people but ! mean just out of curiosity, did anybody hear the radio show? One of the fairly well known disc jockeys in the metropolitan area went to a movie there. Berquist: In Chan? Senn: In Chanhassen. The next morning on his show, gee ! went to the new theater in Chanhassen. ! stood in line 25 minutes. ! was late for my show. ! got into the place. It was so filthy ! was afraid to order any food because it was the biggest pit. Unclean. Mess everywhere. Not enough people to wait on you. Long line for the concession counter so ! went into the movie. Skip the treats. And he said, you want to know what happened when ! got in the movies? It started to rain on me. It was dripping on my head. Now, am ! going to go back to a movie in Chanhassen? Boyle: I've heard a lot of... Senn: Well ! can tell you I've been rained on in there several times too so. But it, ! don't know. Again, you can't assume anything based on what's there now. We have to assume as though whatever use you allow in there can run at an optimum. ! think. Berquist: I just want to say before we go on here, that part of the complaints that ! have heard, and I'm very well aware of it because ! noticed it when ! go in there is there's air handler noise. When the rooftop units are functioning. ! want to tell everybody here, are we on tape? Gerhardt: Yep. 26 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Berquist: I want everybody here to know that we provided alternates, sound attenuation for sound treatment for offsetting the rooftop units. For everything that we could possibly do to make that stuff quiet .... spending as much money as we could take him. The role of fan speeds, to do everything that we could do... done on every other fricken theater we've ever done. Senn: He has no ceiling system because they wouldn't upgrade the roof because the roof can't support a ceiling system. Berquist: ... know the building, surprised in a lot of different areas. The next time you guys are sitting in there and you hear fan noise... Senn: No, no. The next time you're sitting in there and you hear the movie next door... You can also hear the movie next door in some of the theaters which is real interesting too and stuff. Here's the, you know let's say that these guys stay the operators, okay. And let's say we go ahead and we're sticking all this public subsidy in there and everything else. Okay, let's say they're the most terrible operators in the world and let's say the thing goes down the tube. Okay. So now we have all this building there and we have all this stuff sitting there and now you know we have a re-use issue. And what are the re-uses. And do you or don't you have enough parking for all the re-use issues that may or may not come up in there? ! mean again. Boyle: ...might be going someplace different. Berquist: ... from your perspective, if in fact we are looking at other uses, there are very few uses that would be as time intensive from a congestion perspective as a theater. And I've got to believe that' s... like the soccer game. Senn: Yeah, I'd say that's true but I would also say that if something happens with this group, given the position the probability is that you'd probably get a major to come in and... Boyle: Well even that would be spread out more than... Senn: ! mean look at it this way. Ask yourself this question. Think back and look back. How many theaters do you know that have gone out of business and have not just simply re-opened as theaters? In the last, let's see what have ! lived here? 40 some years. ! think ! could probably name them on one hand. Boyle: If we assume that we're short 300 parking spaces optimum, and the individual... Fred Hoisington: ... for the absolutely outside...you'll never reach it. Boyle: Okay. Senn: No but if you're short 250 of the standard, is the easiest way in my mind to put it. 27 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Boyle: Okay. Well however we want to put it. I'm trying to get to where we go from here. With that assumption, what do we do? Do we not allow, ! mean what stage? Are we at a stage that we can halt progression of expansion of the movie theater? Senn: No, there's two ways in my mind you can look at that. Okay. But what we do is we make it their problem which is okay, maybe what you do right now is you go ahead and you take the risk and you do it. But you contractually obligate them if there's a problem to come back and spend the money to solve the problem and build the deck or whatever you want built to solve the problem. More or less make it their problem. So if they can sit here and swear and contest and whatever we're never going to have this problem, fine. Then back it up. More or less give us guarantees so we're not the ones put in that situation 5 years from now or whatever. Okay. It's called basically proof of future parking or you know contractual obligation to produce additional parking to meet the standards. And ! think you've got a good case to make that because you can say, you should at least be meeting the standards that everybody else is being required to meet all around the metropolitan area. Which means at this point 250 more parking stalls. Boyle: Then we identify... Senn: Right. Now we have another issue again we still have to circle around what I'm talking about here which gets into the accesses and the traffic. ! mean you know, that's another whole separate issue. ! can tell you in Plymouth the theater was required to pay for some stop signs and, or ! mean some lit intersections...but those are all, ! mean all I'm trying to say is if they go in there, I'm not saying we should turn them away and we should turn them off. But ! think we should cover our butts which more or less, if they go in and they're hugely successful, then they should produce the parking. They should put in these traffic signals, etc. Not us. Okay. Because again they're already taking all our money up front. It's gone. Okay. Fred Hoisington: What is the situation on accessing... Gerhardt: Well it would be improved if MLT went in... goes in there. We would... Dinner Theater access be improved for that. And you also have the access you know, not being a very good access but there is the alley way that. Senn: Which really ought to be closed off. ! mean even on a poor night, ! mean ! hate to say how unsafe that is but ! mean. Gerhardt: ! don't see a lot of cars using it. Senn: ! live that way so ! use it. My problem is, ! quit using it and the reason ! quit using it is once the show lets out, ! have to wait there longer to get through than ! have to wait the other way to get out because once the shows lets out, the next 15-20 minutes, ! mean it's like a constant flow of 2-3 people at a time walking across, right out the exit door which is right there. It's a real pain in the butt... 28 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Bohn: Some people are parking there in front of where the bar, the High Timber and the place that sells washing machines and stuff. And they're parking there because it's closer, when the parking lot is full down there, they walk down there and they're taking parking places away from that bar and ! know somebody that's a sales manager over at the hotel and they did say that parking places are being taken up by theater people. Boyle: Well what are our options?... This has come up before and ! think we've asked the city what our options are as to the access... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Fred Hoisington: ... compile some information Lifetime Fitness and then ! stopped... Mancino: ...very easy to run the theaters with a two story...because we don't have a clue... some other scenarios that could happen there. ! mean ! don't know how much of a formula... Fred Hoisington: It's easy to do because all of the stuff is in a spread sheet already.., already in there. It's a matter of... cover any shortfall if a shortfall occurs... That makes a great deal of sense...but ! can look at some retail...terrible place to do business down there and... If that comes in it will be nice, little shops. Little... ! can run some and it will at least give you some ideas of what... Mancino: ...will take up quite a few of the spaces that are already... Fred Hoisington: ... Gerhardt: Concept with MLT. Fred Hoisington: ... Mancino: Thank you very much. Boyle: That was two questions instead of one and ! made note of that. One was short. Mancino: Wait, wait. Who spoke most of the night? Senn: Nancy Mancino. Boyle: Okay. That would take a long time. Can we move into some approval of some bills. Berquist: Before ! leave this, we spent $5,000.00 for a parking study...what we're going to end up for a recommendation. Well we just went round and round and round and round and we just flushed 5 grand is what it amounts to. Gerhardt: ...that's just one bill. 29 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Boyle: ...the access study. Maybe we'd better define exactly what we want. Mancino: But this comes out of the TIF though for that...we're getting a parking study and... Berquist: Well we're going to turn around and tell Copeland that he's got to supply us with a traffic study, are we not? Gerhardt: Yes. Mancino: ... so that has to be paid for out of... Senn: Yeah, they pay for it, right? Gerhardt: Right. That's what, Fred didn't see the need for us to do a traffic study in that as Mr. Copeland makes application for site plan it would be a recommendation of staff that they provide a traffic study. Boyle: Now if we don't provide TIF, how does... Senn: I'd much rather see us in control of the traffic study. Otherwise we have to hire somebody to review it anyway. Boyle: ! agree because then that's costs us another 5 grand. Senn: Yeah, but make them pay for it out of the TIF. And if they don't proceed, make them pay for it. Boyle: What TIF? Senn: Because ! know you guys are going to give him TIF. I'm a realist. Boyle: Well now wait a minute. Now we just said...maybe there will be no TIF. Senn: Well then it's a different story. We ought to talk about that. ! mean I'm kind of a believer in the fact that you ought to get the important issues out front. The important issue here is, if they're going to go or not go is based on your TIF so maybe that's the first issue we should get some feedback on. Then we're not spinning our wheels or their wheels. That's the only fair way to do it regardless of which way you're going to go. You know. Boyle: ... Gerhardt: ! think it would save a lot of people a lot of money because he's assuming that there will be some TIF assistance. 30 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Boyle: Well ! think he should be made aware that he shouldn't make that assumption. Gerhardt: Okay. Boyle: I don't think we can say out, say there absolutely will, at this stage will not be... say at this stage there definitely will not be TIF money. Senn: Well nobody's submitted an application so it's kind of hard to do anything but. Boyle: But he should be aware that it's not a given. Gerhardt: Oh no, he knows it's not a given. But ! mean he, he feels that there was going to be some assistance provided for the bowling with their redevelopment so he's assuming if he brings in an acceptable application, that he should you know, would receive some type of benefit along with that also. Berquist: Gerhardt: And the cost of that would be limited to facade and. Boardwalk. Boyle: ! could see where he would make that assumption. Senn: By the way, did they meet the requirements of the letter we sent them? Did they get their plans and stuff in? Gerhardt: They aren't doing the sign, is the last thing I heard. And that we sent him a letter telling him that he had to take down the temporary sign. Senn: Yeah, because he didn't have plans and all that stuff in the meantime. Gerhardt: So Sharmin has already sent him the letters. He's done everything but the sign. The benches are out there. The planters are out there. Everything's out there with the exception of the sign so she says you can't have your temporary sign anymore and ! don't know what the date was but Sharmin said she'd physically go out there and take the sign down if she had to. So ! know they're watching it, the date. Berquist: Well actually ifI had my druthers about which sign to look at, either looking at the cinema sign or the cigarettes for $13.99 a carton, I'd much prefer... Senn: Oh yeah. I have that on the council night, next council note to talk about a somewhat screwy enforcements of signs. Berquist: I think they can do it for three times a year for 10 days or 15 days at a crack. I don't know if it's in violation or not. 31 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: We need to get consistent and either we're going to have an ordinance, enforce it or let's get rid of the ordinance and let people do what they want. It's kind of silly. You've got a car wash sitting down there with a temporary sign hanging on the east. Berquist: Are you talking about Browns? Senn: No. The other one over by the Goodyear. There's a temporary sign on the east end that's been there since the day one that it opened up. A big, huge car wash sign that covers the whole upper part of the building. You've got the Amcon construction sign with absolutely no construction or project going on, at least as far as I'm aware of in the Villages on the Pond who has a big sign. It's been up there ever since the day that project was, how would ! say conceived or whatever. And ! mean, we don't enforce our signage regulations across the board one way or the other. Boyle: Well let's talk about bills. We should probably let you guys bring that up at the next council. APPROVAL OF BILLS: Senn: Tell me what Donald Salverda and Associates, seminar registration is. Gerhardt: That was a seminar for customer service. Senn: But I mean they're the ones putting it on you mean? Gerhardt: Yes. Senn: Oh, okay. I just didn't know. Gerhardt: It's a We Care program. Nationally known. Senn: We care. Gerhardt: We care. Senn: We care. What's Vaughn Display and Flag Company? Boyle: Excuse me. What do we...? Gerhardt: ... training on how to handle irate residents and how to handle a person that might be upset and you know, how to deal with those people. Boyle: I need to go to that. Next, I'm sorry. Senn: The banners and stuff, that's the 4th? 32 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Gerhardt: Those are the signs, or the flags for the downtown. those from the Legion. Mancino: Berquist: Mancino: Gerhardt: Senn: You have down here, Todd Gerhardt. We're getting reimbursed for We have a great grass roots group that went out and got the money. Here, here. ... lunch with the Mayor $199.00. Where do ! have a $200.00 lunch? thought, ! didn't go to that lunch, did I? Room deposit for ICMA conference $148.00 and you have lunch meetings, depot with the Mayor, $199.00. Berquist: ! hope it was a good lunch. Mancino: Excuse me...but where did... Gerhardt: That was for the concrete guys. The volunteers that... That's a combination of a couple of meetings. Senn: When are we going to get our bricks? Gerhardt: Bricks should be in middle of August. Bohn: Is it too late to buy bricks? Gerhardt: No. Nope. We can buy bricks into the future. The space that we're leaving open, right now with the number of bricks ordered, it's going to take half of it and then we'll fill the other half with blank bricks and every two years we'll print up more. You can have all the blank bricks. Senn: ! see you snuck Dean Johnson in here again huh? Gerhardt: ! thought ! could go ahead and make payments to him. Berquist: What's the deal here? Do we know anything? ... I'm just curious as to how the homeowners, ! mean is there anything happening there? Is it just dead in the water? Everybody just said well, we got screwed. Too bad. Mancino: No, no, no, no... ! told you, they're going ahead with their...it's been quite a while. 33 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: Could you, ! thought ! asked this last time but would, could somebody please put together the overall cost associated with that TIF refunding? ! thought somebody was going to do that and come back to us. Gerhardt: ! didn't hear that one. Senn: Yeah, ! know. I'm just reminding him because I've got him here now. Berquist: Didn't that request also include the rationale for the Coulter improvements? Senn: That was two different things, yeah but that request was made too, yeah. Berquist: You weren't there at that meeting. Gerhardt: TIF scenarios under Coulter. Berquist: We got a memo that said TIF was going to pay for. Gerhardt: Yeah. I've got my three scenarios. How things are currently. You wanted to see an ultimate build out projections with TIF and without TIF, right? Senn: But on this one here, ! mean we've been paying Tautges a lot of money towards that from the council, city end too, and the council end and Springsted and ! mean more or less seeing everything in relationship to that TIF refunding and show us what the cost for all that was. And other than Mancino' s $199.00 lunch. Mancino: I'm not a cheap date. Berquist: Did we talk about the Prince tax appeal? Has that been talked about? We got a memo here a few weeks ago that talked about $52,000.00 in legal costs. Senn: We raised some issues over that. Berquist: Did we? Senn: Yes. Berquist: Did we raise them or were we talking about them in a work session that we did. Senn: Yeah, it was at the work session ! thought. Didn't we talk about that? ! don't think Todd was there but ! thought. Gerhardt: Don told me to write up an analysis. ! wrote up an analysis. ! sent it out to both Jim and Gary and then put it in your administrative section. Packet. ! don't know if it was alley news or under administrative section. 34 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: The one coming out yet? Gerhardt: No, it's already gone out. Berquist: So as ! remember we authorized 40. Did we authorize 127 We got, we negotiated a settlement that didn't give us the return that we had hoped to get. Yes, it's more than what they wanted but it's less than what we wanted and we're paying $12,000.00 more... Senn: It's not that simple though. Berquist: No, it's never that simple but that's kind of a short version. Gerhardt: We're making money on the deal. ! mean it was, ! can put my memo back out in another packet but you know if you take over the scenarios, we cleared like $130,000.00 over the settlement. Over the next four years. Senn: Yeah but how much would we have gotten anyway if we hadn't even done it? Gerhardt: It would have stayed at the $4 million. So ! went from the $4 million, up from there. Senn: But staying at the $4 million, you're assuming there would have been no increase in valuation. That' s making the assumption the judge would have decided 100% their way. Gerhardt: Well then they probably would have taken us to tax court each year too. And we would have had to fight it every year. We felt that we were really successful that we settled four years of possible tax court litigation. Berquist: So anything going forward? Gerhardt: Yeah. We're out to the year 2000. That he can't do anything. We settled values out to the year 2000. And what we've done is set a precedence too of about $150,000.00 increase each year. So when we hit the year 2000, he's going to have a real tough case for not justifying $150,000.00 value increase. So we, ! mean I'm thinking about sending a thank you letter to Mike and Mac and the appraisers for doing such a good job. Boyle: May ! have a motion on the bills? Mancino: If they did a good job, tell them. Boyle: If there are no other questions. Mancino moved, Bohn seconded to approve the bills. All voted in favor, except Senn who opposed, and the motion carried. 35 Economic Development Authority - August 13, 1998 Senn: I'm never going to vote for any money going to Dean Johnson, sorry. Just principle... Boyle: If there are no EDA presentations, this meeting is adjourned. Chairman Boyle adjourned the Economic Development Authority meeting. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt Assistant Executive Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 36