1 Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
OCTOBER 22, 2002
Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Amy O' Shea, Tom Kelly, Paula Atkins, Jack Spizale, and
David Happe
MEMBERS ABSENT: Glenn Stolar
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Superintendent;
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: As presented.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
Deb Campbell: Deb Campbell and I'm at 4100 Lake Ridge Road. Ready.?
Franks: You bet.
Deb Campbell: Okay. My family and I, we moved from the eastern part of Chanhassen in the
early summer to the western part of Chanhassen, so we're west of Lake Minnewashta near
Roundhouse Park. And we got very used to having North Lotus Park near us with 'the nice tennis
courts, double courts there. Moving to western Chanhassen and finding you know just nothing in
the vicinity in the way of tennis courts so I realize this is the wrong season to be talking about
this, but I'm here anyway. I just want to plug, we are kind of bound by Highway 7 on the north
and then Highway 5 on the south. You can't really bike across either of those safely to get to any
courts. I mean I don't know how many miles the closest courts are but it's pretty far. I did a
rough home count of the area, and you know I can pass this around. The area I'm talking about
that would, these courts would meet the needs there. It's kind of the western part of Lake
Minnewashta and then kind of around the north side too, south of 7 still. Roughly 500 homes in
that area, so however many people that is. So I really think there's an unmet need there and my
kids both like to play tennis and you know now we have to get in the car and maybe go to the rec
center, which on Highway 5 is a school, a bit of a trek, so I'm just here to plug this idea and hope
that it can get built as soon as possible. I've done kind of a canvas of our neighborhood and the
surrounding neighborhoods and everyone's obviously very excited about it. I think Todd has
gotten several calls, e-mails, letters, whatever and I don't know if you have a count but.
Hoffman: I've given that also...
Deb Campbell: Okay. So anyway, I'm just here to plug that. I think there's a need and put it up
to all of you on the floor. Any questions or comments?
Franks: Well if you're okay with that, that's what we'll open it up for is if there's any questions
for you from the commissioners.
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Deb Campbell: Okay.
Franks: Jack, we'll start down on your end.
Spizale: There's no tennis courts in that area at all?
Deb Campbell: There's no tennis courts south of 7, north of 5, anywhere or west of, that I'm
aware of, west of Galpin. You know just that whole area. There's some at MMW. There's two
courts there but obviously they're used during school and that, and that's not really in biking
distance at all from our neighborhood, or that whole area.
Franks: Just for information sake, the master plan for Roundhouse Park does call for.
Hoffman: It includes a.
Franks: It includes a tennis pad.
Hoffman: Pad. Double tennis right here. Just to the west of the parking lot off of Kings Road.
Franks: So when the master plan for the park was approved, it included generally speaking. Part
of the philosophy of the commission and the park department has been not necessarily to include
tennis courts in what we consider a neighborhood park. But Roundhouse Park is one of those
different kinds of parks, neighborhood parks, due to it's geographic isolation from other city...
Deb Campbell: Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
Franks: And so it's really the only recreation amenity area that services that whole western
Minnewashta side so we. certainly have talked about it and considered that it would, I think the
consensus, informal coflsensus of the commission is that tennis courts at that location is probably
a good idea. Although Todd we've not formally acted on, and it's not currently included in the 5
year CIP.
Hoffman: No. Just recommended.
Franks: So I just wanted to give you that piece of information background. We'll continue, if
there's any questions from commission.
Spizale: Okay, no other questions.
Happe: Just one quick question or point. There's, so from your house there's no tennis courts
that are within biking access that you don't have to cross a highway or an interstate to get to?
Deb Campbell: Correct, and I mean we'd be happy to bike a mile or two or whatever but there is
nothing. There are some in, I guess that's Shorewood, but that's across 7 and there's no way that,
so we can drive up there but there's no easy way to cross.
Happe: Okay. I have no further questions.
O'Shea: I don't have any.
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Franks: Todd, just a question for you quick. About what is the cost of completing that pad for
the tennis court, including the fencing that would have to go along with it?
Hoffman: I called for an estimate, right around $40,000. Rough estimate. Two tennis courts
and then basketball hoops that would go along with that for the dual use.
Franks: Right. You know the one thing that I have a question about, and maybe you have a feel
for this, I mean you've been talking with the neighbors. Generally speaking tennis as a
recreational activity's been on the decline since, it's kind of peaked out. We've noticed some
decline in the use of the other tennis courts. Although philosophically I think that it' s probably be
a good idea to locate them in a park, part of our concern I think is investing those dollars into that
kind of amenity and what kind of use are we going to get back. And so maybe you can give us
some feedback for us on that.
Deb Campbell: Well I can tell you the ones at North Lotus are, they were used quite a bit. I
mean we were over there quite a lot and we' ve had, you know there were a lot of times there were
people over there already so you know we had the second court or they were full or whatever. So
I know those are used pretty frequently. I guess all I can tell you is the neighborhood feedback I
have, there' s some townhouses kind of on the southwest corner of Minnewashta there and there' s
some older people in there that they were just really thrilled about this because they have to drive
over to play tenni~ at, I don't know, Crosstown or one of the clubs and yOu know, more retired
people that are, they'd love to go out and play. And lots of kids. Lots of families and in fact my
daughter's playing tennis at MMW this year. Lots of kids, and I don't know, I think they'd be
interested in it. You know all I can do is say well who've I've talked to and spread the word
around and everyone seems excited. I guess I don't know how to respond to your, you know that
there's a decline in tennis. Maybe that's true but I still think in that area there's enough of a
demand, enough of a need.
Franks: Okay, thank you.
Kelly: ! don't have anything.
Atkins: I just have a comment that you and your neighbors have done a really good job in .
making your voices heard about this.
Deb Campbell: Thank you and maybe that's one question I have. Is there anything else I can do
I mean other than come here and express our desires? Is there anything else I can be doing or is
this pretty much the forum and as I laid it in front of you?
Franks: Well I think the next step for us would be to consider whether this is an item that we
want formally on the agenda. Since we're coming up on the winter schedule, as far as.
Hoffman: You'll be looking at your 5 year CIP this winter.
Franks: The 5 year CIP this winter, okay.
Hoffman: Capital Improvement Program for 5 years.
Franks: You hate jargon don't you? CIP, we throw it around and.
Deb Campbell: That's alright, as long as you explain what it is.
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Hoffman: And you're absolutely right about the similarities between North Lotus and
Roundhouse. They're both neighborhood parks which the city has treated and the commission
has treated more similar to a community park. Both of them are isolated on the other side of the
lakes and so they attempted to acquire sufficient land to accommodate a larger variety of uses,
much more typical that you'd see in community parks so that's why you see it in the plan. You
experienced that at North Lotus you're seeing similar activities here.
Deb Campbell: Okay.
Franks: Todd, at the time when it's appropriate we'd like to see this come up on an agenda for us
to consider formally.
Hoffman: You bet.
Franks: And we'll make sure that everyone, will they receive a mailing? People who have sent
in the e-mails? Do you still have record of that?
Hoffman: Sure do.
Franks: Can we make sure that a mailing goes out to those people, and of course to you Deb too
as well.
Happe: Hopefully too, Commissioner Franks we're noting the interest in tennis facilities as we
take a look at components of a potential community center as well.
Franks: Yeah, we don't know exactly what those sites would be yet so.
Hoffman: Great.
Deb Campbell: Okay? Thank you.
Franks: Thank you for coming today. Are there any other presentations from the audience? On
an item that's not currently on the agenda. Alrighty, then we'll get to it.
Ted Koltes: Okay. I'm here for the long haul.
Hoffman: Next item.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Franks: Well really the next item is the approval of the minutes dated September 24, 2002. Are
there any commissioners with corrections or changes to the minutes as presented to us?
Atkins: There's a few places where I'm quoted as saying some things that I didn't say.
Franks: Do you want to state your name? This is, and so when they listen to the tape they know
who to make the changes with.
Atkins: Yeah, okay. This is Paula Atkins speaking now. If I remember I will. But it's nothing
important.
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Franks: No. What are the?
Atkins: Oh, I think it was the lady from the Rec Center.
Franks: Susan.
Atkins: Yeah. Made a comment abOut the, when we were talking about the invitations and she
said she'd turn the ones that were already printed up into time cards. Because they had to be re-
printed. That's the only thing I noticed.
Franks: Okay. Thank you Paula. Anything else? Any other commissioners? No? Seeing none
then, is there a motion to approve the minutes as amended?
Spizale moved, O'Shea seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation
Commission dated September 24, 2002 as amended on pages 7 and 8, changing the name of
Atkins to Marek. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
ESTABLISH 2002/03 ICE SKATING AND HOCKEY RINK PROGRAM.
Hoffman: I'll turn it over to Jerry, our Recreation Superintendent.
Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks and the rest of the commission. As the weather is turning
colder recently here, we're starting to think about our upcoming ice for the 2002-2003 winter
season. Approximately, we'll have the rinks open from approximately December 14th to about
February 16th, really depending on the weather. Typically it's around the Christmas holiday when
the rinks are open on normal years. Last year we didn't have a normal year. We weren't open all
that much last year, really because of the warm weather. So getting those going. The warming
houses again will be open again Monday through Friday, 4:00 to 9:00. Saturday, 10:00 a.m. to
9:00 p.m. and Sundays from 1:00 to 7:00. Again we'll have warming houses, a permanent
warming house at the Recreation Center and portable warming houses at City Center Park, North
Lotus and Roundhouse parks. Last year, as you recall, we did have some warm weather and
really didn't begin flooding until the day after Christmas last year. With really some
unseasonably warm temperatures we weren't really open all that much. I think 26, days or
approximately we were open last year. It wasn't very much but with that warm weather we had
to make some decisions within our department not to flood certain areas, and we really tried to
concentrate our efforts on kind of the main areas. The warming house areas of kind of what
we've done in the past based on higher numbers at those areas. We did kind of look at some of
the areas, the neighborhood kind of park situations. You know the Meadow Green, Chan Hills,
Pheasant Hills, some of those types of areas. It really wasn't conducive to really put together
really a full fledged effort and coordinating and flood those and waste resources and times that we
really weren't going to get fully utilized with some of the past summers that we've seen and also
because of the warm weather. So we decided not to do those as we have in the past. Therefore
we are here tonight to talk about those neighborhood parks and kind of what we'd like to do here
for the future. We did do again kind of re-assessing the situation. There really was, it seemed to
make sense to staff to really kind of focus our energies again on our warming house areas where
we have them staffed. We have lights in most the situations and warming houses. In the past if
you look at some of the numbers that we've, of the park maintenance personnel have kind of
gathered through the 2000-2001 skating season, you can see a lot of the neighborhood park
settings did not get a lot of use. Of course this isn't 100 percent accurate but it gives us, it's kind
of something to gauge on. This is kind of more of a formal information that we have, or
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
submitted from our park superintendent and they also then kind of through the years have kind of
noticed that and have kind of communicated that to us at City Hall that a lot of these areas have
not been receiving a lot of use through the years here so we're here tonight to really talk about the
situations and approve number one, obviously our warming house areas. And then also to
approve that as a whole and not include the neighborhood situations. So it's staffs
recommendation that the warming house locations be maintained at the Chanhassen Recreation
Center, City Center Park, Roundhouse Park and North Lotus Lake Park for the upcoming season.
Rinks proposed for these locations will include two hockey rinks and one pleasure rink at the Rec
Center, one hockey rink and one pleasure at City Center Park, one hockey rink and one pleasure
rink at North Lotus Lake Park, and one pleasure rink at Roundhouse. This does total, this does
have a total of 8 skating surfaces, 4 hockey and 4 pleasure finks at all those locations combined.
Staff also recommends that the pleasure rinks at Minnewashta Heights, Pheasant Hills, Carver
Beach, Meadow Green, Rice Marsh, Sunset Ridge Park and Chanhassen Hills not be maintained
for the upcoming season. This totals 7 or 8 of which the Chanhassen Hills Park is really the only
one that currently has a light. Kind of an operation where we've had a warming house there in the
past with low numbers, the Park and Rec Commission really elected last year to take that
warming house out of it's location and just kind of maintain it at that time as a neighborhood park
before the weather kind of took care of that last year. So we have had some people e-mail, and
Mr. Ted Koltes is with us here tonight to kind of represent himself as well as his neighbors in
support or re-instating and talk to the commission tonight about the PheaSant Hills Park area. We
did reCeive sOme 3 e-mails tonight after 5:00 that I printed out and I gave them to you, in front of
you, there's a copy for everybody there. The ones that I received. And they're all in support of
the re-establishing the skating rink at Pheasant Hills so, at this time I'll entertain any questions
from the commission.
Franks: Alright, thank you Jerry. Mr. Koltes, if you just hang on for a minute and we'll just
pepper Jerry with some questions, and see if we can ask some that he can't answer. Let's start
down with Paula this time. Paula, what do you have for Jerry?
Atkins: Maybe you mentioned this when you started but I'm wondering how you gauge the use?
How did you figure out what the numbers were at the places that don't have warming houses?
Did you just.
Ruegemer: What we've done in the past really is, the park maintenance personnel really have
communicated that to us in the past. We have more of a, I guess a formula to document from the
2000-2001 season. That's in your packet. If you look on, it's actually this document right here.
That kind of had a, that was from the 2000-2001 season. Obviously last year we didn't have a
rink there so this is kind of the last I guess numbers that we have kind of indicating that the
participation numbers at those locations. So as you can kind of look on the left column, those are
the number of times that were checked, the park, and then kind of the use, and they rated that
heavy, light or no use with the corresponding numbers in the right hand columns.
Hoffman: That's when they go to flood on a daily or an every other day basis and then they mark
down, these outside finks, they typically, there's not been warm weather or they can anticipate
there's no heavy use and they don't have to go back perhaps every 3 or 4 days. And then when
they're there they check off on their clipboard what they observe as far as the use from the skate
marks. When you're sitting up in that truck you can have a very clear observation of w. hat has
occurred in that sheet of ice in the past.
Happe: So they're not counting, they're not looking at bodies. They're actually looking at the
wear and tear on the ice and seeing how much, okay.
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Atkins: This is from 2000-2001. Is there one from, last year was just a miserable year for ice.
Hoffman: We only flooded the main community parks so the numbers are body counts from the
skating rink attendants.
Atkins: That's all for me.
Kelly: I think my only question may have been asked already. I was wondering if there is a low
usage park and you save cost by not maintaining that as often as you do a high usage park? So it
would be some.
Hoffman: More maintenance goes into the high use areas than go into the low use areas.
Kelly: Alright. That was all that I had.
Franks: Commissioner Kelly. Jerry, I have some questions for you. I'm looking at the figures as
far as the maintenance cost, staff time for 2001-2002 and then also for 2000-2001. And those
were both years that we had all of the neighborhood skating rinks on line, is that correct?
Ruegemer: 2001 and 2002 did not include many of the neighborhOod rinks as we did in 2000 and
2001. Basically 2001 and 2002 included kind of the general warming house areas. So that was
the, as you can see the reduction in cost.
Franks: Okay. So by removing these neighborhood rinks, we basically cut the labor costs in half.
That' s what I' m saying.
Kelly: Well, if I can interrupt. The days open too are much different between 2001 and 2002.
Ruegemer: That's correct. We maintained our heavy use areas quite a bit less than we have in
the past as well because of the number of days that we were open.
Franks: Okay.
Kelly: I think a better metric to look at is the operation cost per.
Franks: Right, per day. And there again we're still seeing a reduction.
Kelly: You see about a $200 reduction so it's, so maybe a 50 percent increase having those
neighborhood parks open as opposed to a 100 percent.
Franks: The only other thing Jerry that I'm wondering if you considered in siting the skating
rinks is, the coverage. There's no doubt that there's a little hole that appears up in the Pheasant
Hills area. But there's also a hole that pops up south of Highway 5 as well. And that's an area of
expanding population for the city too. There we go.
Hoffman: Sites 2 and 3 are the central located facilities at maybe community parks. 1 and 4 are
the two parks we just talked about during the previous conversation that are isolated
neighborhood parks. So transportation wise, the majority of the residents in the city have fairly
good access to these locations. If you want to start looking at geographic location is one thing. If
you're a resident in Chan Hills and it's cold and you want to go outdoor skating, you may choose
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Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
to go to the Rec Center before you would go to the neighborhood because it has a warming house
and so there's other things that go into that. It's been staff's philosophy that these sites with
lights and warming houses are the most attractive and then there's always an element of, if it's
just down the street and you can, and it doesn't have a warming house, that's pretty convenient as
well because your kids can run down there.
Franks: That didn't seem to pan out at Chan Hills though with the light and a warming house that
was hardly ever used.
Hoffman: Yes. And so the Pheasant Hill, or excuse me Chanhassen Hills that Rod just talked
about, we attempted to ramp things up to try to make that a viable location. Added the light as a
part of the '97 referendum. A little skating rink light. It's not a light like you'd see at the Rec
Center or City Center. It's just a-small light and a warming house, but our numbers were just
dismal down there.
Ruegemer: Yeah, significantly lower than the rest of the sites.
Hoffman: So we pulled the warming house and now we it may be pulled altogether.
Franks: Yeah, go ahead.
Kelly: Down in that area, would Bandimere be a better alternative because it's more a high
profile park as opposed to Chanhassen Hills? I mean it is a community property. Has ample
parking and people are more familiar with that park because of the soccer fields and softball
fields.
Hoffman: The commission talked about that as a part of the design process, but it was included
in that master plan' for Bandimere Park. The conversation at the time was if that ever began a
desire, we would put tip portable hockey rink boards in the parking lots so you would pull in
portable hockey rink during pours, and then you have a lighting issue. If you have lighting, you'd
have to, really it would have to be years out for that because there's no power available there for
... so it was left off of the...
Franks: There's not power available that could be?
Hoffman: There's power there but you would have to go and re-wire in power right there...
Franks: Well that's something that I think we will continue to need to consider because that's
exactly where I was going was that seems like a prime spot to service the growing population in
the southern, south of Highway 5 Chanhassen community at a community park. It's got power.
It's got recognition. It's got facilities. Soon we'll have a park shelter that's being proposed is
that' s, for 2003 now. I think it's going to be important to consider the design of the park shelter,
the multi-use as a warming house so power requirements and situations be such that you can
utilize it for that.
Hoffman: We'll have to study that whole situation.
Franks: Right, because the parking lot's not really sitting where the.
Happe: ...
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Hoffman: Not as close as you'd like.
Franks: No.
Hoffman: And I don't think the commission in all honesty has put hockey boards and ice on.
Franks: Not on our grass.
Hoffman: Soccer fields.
Franks: No, no. Not going on the grass. Alright.
Hoffman: It's a good study for this coming year.
Franks: Amy.
O'Shea: I have several questions Jerry.
looking at this? Is it lack of use?
·
What's the main driver? Is it financial that you're
Ruegemer: I think all of the above. I think you really look at; I think number one, you look at
how many resources we put into you know flooding, maintaining, and you can see when you look
at the number of staff house and the over time pay and a lot of that kind of thing, it seems to be a
lot of work for little use. And if you look at the per rink per cost and a lot of those types of, you
know a lot of it is a financial. Our budgets are getting tight. We need to really look at and
evaluate programs that aren't working and if they're not really working that great, we need to re-
evaluate that and make some decisions.
O'Shea: With that being said then, what is your, I'm assuming this is in the 2003 budget. With
them all open.
Ruegemer: Correct.
O'Shea: How much are you going to save? How much would you save?
Ruegemer: Our budget, well I don't know if I can give you a hard number tonight but our
budgets include...there's a lot of variables that go into that. I can't give you a hard number on
that, but a lot of that really depends on, we were kind of getting back to Commissioner Kelly's
comments. It's like we were open 60 to 80 days a year before and 20 to 30 last year so really it's
hard to quantify.
O'Shea: What I'm getting at is, you know a lot of these might be perceived fixed costs that you'll
incur anyway.
Hoffman: Correct. Staff is there, so the staff is either going to be flooding, there's going, to be
some overtime savings and overtime costs. Staff is still going to be there. They're either
flooding finks, which they're doing today, or they're doing something else and that's the
question. If they don't flood these rinks is what they're going to be doing with that time, is that
more productive to the city and to the citizens than what they're doing flooding these rinks.
Franks: In time Jerry, could you just fill in, since we have a number of new commissioners,
exactly what the park maintenance staff is doing during the winter.
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Hoffman: Flooding rinks and plowing trails and maintaining, working at the shop. Making
soccer goals and other things so they've got limited time. Our work list is about 300 items and
growing and I have items on our work list for Dean Schmieg that I've had on there for 10 years so
there's not a lack of work for our park maintenance division.
O'Shea: That's not the purpose of my question. I'm not saying that they're not going to have
anything to do. The point that I'm getting at is, if it's driven by financial as one, then I would
assume we'd see a significant financial savings. If that was one of the drivers and I as a
commissioner would want to know how much that is going to be. If we're talking that we're not
going to see a savings, then I think we're affecting the neighborhoods in a negative way. If we're
not going to see, if it's driven by financial reasons. So I would need a sound, or I'd need to know
this is what we're going to save, and maybe figure out what it costs per day so if you're not going
to flood 7, you know regardless if we're open 10 or 15, 20, 30 skate days. You know, how much
would we save per day by not flooding 7 rinks. I need to know that. Lack of use, you know what
is lack of use? Is it for the neighbors to know, is 200 individuals using it a season, given a normal
season, and whatever the normal season is. What is lack of use? You know is it 400? Is it 300?
Because we may have lack of use in some of our premiere parks. I'm not saying we do but I
think the neighbors have a right to know what is lack of use. Because I think it's a service that I
think a lot of people really do enjoy, and I'm also worried or concerned the way the numbers are
gathered. I don't think it's a fair objective way to know.
Hoffman: Which numbers?
O'Shea: The usage numbers. And again this might be naive because I don't maintain a rink so
maybe you really can tell the use. I know on a hockey you can because of all the stopping. On a
skating rink I'm assuming it doesn't take as much wear as a hockey rink. It might be difficult to
really know, because I know I asked Jerry ahead of the meeting, you know they're flooding at
times where the kids aren't going to be there, so bodies aren't going to be there and then you
clarified this for me that you can tell by the usage, but I'm still, I don't feel comfortable saying
yes we should by the information I've been given. I'd want a better calculation on numbers so
looking at this and I don't know, I think the neighbors should be, unless you know the amount of
money you're going to save, I think the neighbors should know that we need the numbers up to
this or not this year but the following year we will have to cut back because we need to see a
minimum skaters out such and such use in the season, given that it's a naturallY normal season.
And I just think that's the fairness to the neighbors to do that. And then they have something to,
you know if they really want to keep it, they'd better get out there and use it and show that they
want to use it. And then if the numbers aren't there, then to me that's a fair decision on that
point. But I'm afraid that when we visit this in the spring, we won't see that much savings
financially, unless you can show that to us.
Hoffman: No, I want to make sure that we're talking the same. There's going to be some
financial savings where we won't spend money for overtime. The rest of the savings will be a
transfer of time to other activities and so instead of flooding for 80 or 90 or 100 hours, they'll be
doing other things in the park. Other things, other activities. And then, so but we can quantify
that and you know that's, you know 7,000, 8,000, 12,000, 15,000. It's a variable number
depending on how much time we're putting into how many rinks. There's a wide variable there
on that number, but these rinks cost generally $3,000 to $7,000 per rink, again depending on
location so if you take that and average it out over these 7 rinks we're talking some significant
dollars, and that's the only reason staff is bringing this back. If these were easy to put in and did
not cost a good deal of money, we wouldn't be here talking about it today. We would say let's go
ahead and let's put them in and let them get what little use they get and it's not that big a deal.
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Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
And then on the usage, the numbers you have today are the best numbers that we can give you.
And so if we want to make a decision, we have to make a decision off of those numbers. Where
we have to go through an entire skate cycle and attempt to find a better way of quantifying that
use, which I don't know that we could come up with. These are rinks that are spread across the
community. There's no efficient or effective way that we could have somebody there to do the
head count on X, unless we really want to go into an in depth program and we could hire
somebody to do that. When these folks have flooded these rinks, some of them for 20 or 30
years. When they're in a truck on top of that sheet of ice, you can tell the skate marks and so, we
came up with that light, medium, heavy and it's not, it's obviously there's some, you know it's an
arbitrary system but those were the best numbers that we have today and if you look at, I started
looking at some of the numbers. I think one has 0-0-0. O-Heavy, 0-Medium and then 11 or 12
Lights, so this is telling us that there's not a lot of activity and that's been quantified, not by
numbers but by observations for a great number of years. There is some history here,
Minnewashta was the only, and we talked about this before the meeting started. Minnewashta
Heights has been the only rink which the past commission has taken out of flooding, and then if
you recall, if anybody was here. Rod, maybe you were around. The neighborhood came in and
said you know we want that rink back and the commission said, we're going to start flooding that
rink again so it went back in. But other than that, this is a new adventure that we're talking about
here. We're adding rinks at locations like the Roundhouse and North Lotus and the Rec Center
and these other rinks just tend to just, you know these maintenance people they go we're out here
flooding and, to gear these rinks up they flood all night for about a week. They flood around the
clock, around the clock and that's why you see those costs are high on that year, last year when
we only had 27 operating days, but the year before I think it was February 20t~ and we had 70, 80
some operating days so then your costs per day go down because you have those operating days.
So I hope that helps but those are great questions.
O'Shea: Just two more questions. If they were to continue to flood those, what projects wouldn't
get done then? Because you said it would just, what projects wouldn't get done if they kept those
ice skating rinks open?
Hoffman: Again they would get to plowing the trails earlier. There'-s a variety of things that they
do all winter long so it's just, it goes to other work and if you want those other lists of items, I can
certainly provide that to you but they're making goals. They're plowing rinks. They're doing
other outside maintenance. Preparing for February Festival. Doing other things that are just day
to day operations to the park crews. And then also they're cutting down on overtime hours
because they're not going to be out there as much for those overtime hours.
O'Shea: Okay. And one more, just a, I know the hockey association uses the rinks, the hockey
rinks a lot. Do they pay a fee?
Ruegemer: No they do not.
O'Shea: Is there a reason?
Ruegemer: It hasn't been our policies or practice to charge athletic associations for the use of our
facilities. And there's two hockey associations. Chan/Chaska Hockey and then Tonka,
Minnetonka Hockey.
O'Shea: Okay, that's all I had.
11
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Happe~ I don't know, I think part of the thought process and it may have been because a lot of
those skaters are Chanhassen taxpayers, already they've already paid for the facility so we have
apparently elected a policy to tack an additional fee onto that as they believe that they've already
paid for some of those facilities. In some previous discussions that I had, and Todd I think it's
relatively consistent with what you said, I heard a number thrown around of between $4,000 to
$5,000 is maybe a good benchmark for what it might cost, just on an average to have one of these
neighborhood parks flooded, re-flooded nightly, if not every other night, and maintained through
the year. So if you use a benchmark of $5,000 times the 7 neighborhood parks we're talking
about, you are looking at a dollar amount that's going to be plus or minus in the $35,000 range.
In addition, I think we need to remember that these are neighborhood parks. Those are not
community parks. This lists of 7 parks dates back to some years.
Franks: Dave, can I jump in for a minute? What I'd like to do is just spend some time directing
questions for Jerry, and then we'll hear from the audience and then we'll have some time to bring
it back to the commission to make our summary statements.
Happe: Sure. Jerry, last year was there additional outcries for, with the shorter season that we
had, and granted the warmer season, was there a lot of community feedback from the parks that
weren't flooded last year?
Ruegemer: We did hear back from some areas that weren't flOoded last year and, and of course
we did receive some phone calls on that certainly.
Happe: Okay. And this cash that is spent for the parks, what pocket of money does that, that
comes out of the general fund or that comes out of the budgeted fund from park and rec, or where
does that money come from?
Ruegemer: General fund.
Happe: Okay. And if we do elect to continue flooding neighborhood parks versus community
parks, is it safe to assume that there will be additional neighborhoods, or additional locations that
are not on this list of 7 that would like their neighborhoods to be considered for a neighborhood
park as well?
Ruegemer: That's always a possibility. This is, as we look at the rinks that have been kind of
identified, those have been kind of our mainstay or parks that we have flooded in the past. As
new parks come on line at that meeting, requested by the neighborhoods in the future but I would
anticipate a lot of the inquiries on new skating rinks.
Happe: Okay, as far as questions that's all I have. Thanks Jerry.
Franks: Can I jump in on the question? The amount of calls that you received about the skating
rinks, was that equal to calls about Phase II playground equipment or half court basketball or?
Ruegemer: You know I think a lot of calls that we received last winter really inquiry type of
phone calls. You know it just wasn't really a typical season last year. I think theft were really
more like you know is our rink going in? It's not going in? It's January 1st, 2aa, l0"l, whatever it
was, is the rink going in and at that time we didn't inform them that it was not. As far as how
many calls I received versus other types of inquiries.
Franks: Commissioner Spizale.
12
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Spizale: Probably just one. I think most have been answered already being the last one but
probably the only thing we really provide outside in our parks in the wintertime would be skating,
right? Just a thought. Okay. That's all I've got.
Franks: Well if there's no further questions for Jerry.
Ted Koltes: I'm the audience.
Franks: You're the audience. Why don't you come up to the podium and state your name and
address for the record. We are really interested to hear what you have to say.
Ted Koltes: My name's Ted Koltes. I live at 1731 Wood Duck Circle, which literally backs right
up to Pheasant Hills Park. My family and I have lived in Chanhassen now for the past 7 years,
and I come tonight to speak on behalf of my neighborhood. We recently had a block party at
which time we were able to take kind of an informal poll of a vast array of people from different
age groups, different ages of children about the skating rink. The neighborhood ice surface there
at Pheasant Hills Park. And what I came to find, what we've come to find is that there was some
misunderstandings about last year. Many people assumed that because of the unseasonably warm
winter that we had last year, that that was the reason for the lack of the ice and when they came to
understand that it was no. It was indeed cut Out based on lack of use, unanimously, of all the
people that we spoke with, there was not one who said that they weren't interested in bringing the
ice back. I'm pleased to see that in addition to my inquiries and contact with Jerry and Todd, that
3 of my other neighbors have forwarded correspondence regarding this issue also, and I'd just
like to reiterate a couple points. I don't look to debate the use studies from 2 years ago. In the
last 2 to 3 years there's been tremendous turnover in our neighborhood and the adjoining
neighborhoods. Bringing in new families. We're recycling and bringing in lots and lots of new
kids. In fact in the cul-de-sac that we live in, there are 6 children under the age of 8 who live in
that area who 2 years ago may not have been of skating age. The second point I would make is,
in watching my 4 year old skate, as you kno~ I'll bring him over to the Chaska Community
Center to skate even in the summer, he doesn't leave skate marks. He's not heavy enough. When
it's really cold outside, there's, he's even less apt to leave skate marks. You know he just doesn't
have the weight to leave a mark in the ice. We're talking about kids that are now of age to skate,
who 2 years ago may not have been. So like I said, I'm pleased to see that you know neighbors
on both sides have also made their voices heard on this. We're very much in favor of re-instating
the ice program at Pheasant Hills Park. I can guarantee you it would be used this year. I'd be out
there almost daily with my two kids. I know that Dan and Kurt on either side of me with their
combined 4 children would be also. I understand that we're in a time of looking to cut budgets
but as Jack had mentioned, that's really what the park stands to offer us in the winter is skating.
And we're just very much in favor of bringing this ice surface back.' It would be used. I guess I
don't know how many different ways I can put that. We just really want ice so, you know I,
personal story. David knows this well. Both of Class of '88 at Benilde and I played hockey all
my years there but I just didn't start when I was in high school. I started when I was 4 or 5 years
old and I used to spend my entire days down at the ice rink and it gave me a productive, useful
way to spend my time in the winters. Frankly, that's what made winter bearable for me was
hockey and skating. Otherwise it's just cold, and when
into the Pheasant Hills area here at the end of August,
only the park in the summer but also the ice surface in
we bought our home, and we just moved
that was one of the alluring things. Not
the winter and if any of you are familiar
with this park, it's set up. I mean you look at it, it's like well, there's where an ice rink should go.
I mean it's a reed area around it and a perfectly flat surface there in the middle and it just
completely makes sense to have ice there. And we would just again collectively like to ask that
13
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
that park, and I can't speak on behalf of the other ones, but that park at least be re-instated. In
fact, in it's absence there's a pond in the adjoining block that neighbors have taken it upon
themselves to flood and maintain in the winter, just so that an ice surface would be made
available to the kids so. Are there any, you know I'd.
Franks: Well if you're comfortable, would you mind staying at the podium to see if any
commissioners have any questions for you?
Ted Koltes: I'm comfortable. I love microphones.
Franks: Alright. Are there any questions for Mr. Koltes?
Ruegemer: Can you just, can I have a real quick clarification note. That particular rink was not
cut last year because of it was just our decision to pull rinks and cut. That rink was not flooded
last year because of the warm weather so I don't know if that's.
Ted Koltes: I can completely understand that, and that's what many of the neighbors had figured
also. I mean I don't know that we had snow much before Christmas even last year so logic says
that that was a reasonable choice. As I'm still shivering from being outside, I don't expect this
winter to be the same.
Franks: Any questions for Mr. Koltes?
Happe: Two quick ones. One, so there was a pond, did the pond get some use? I mean so
neighbors...kept it...
Ted Koltes: It did. In fact they brought lights down around it to keep it lit and there was actually
even a hockey team-as I understand that used to use it as a place to practice so.
Happe: Reminds me of when we were kids.
Ted Koltes: Yeah, and you know I, growing up not far from here, we used to, we had a pond in
our back yard and we used to do the same thing. And I don't want to weaken my point here but it
was my determination that if ice wasn't brought back, I'm going to flood my back yard. I mean
there's, you've got to have ice you know, and we used, we were neighbors of Todd here for 6
years and we used to come here and use this ice for my kids. I want my little man to play hockey
and my little girl too. It's a scholarship sport after all so.I'm very interested in them sharing in
that passion as I did and still do.
Happe: Second question, how are those Benilde-St. Margaret Red Knights going to do this year
in hockey?
Ted Koltes: Well they took first in State, as I'm sure you're quite aware last year so it's, in fact
Buddha is still senior year, he was fu'st year coach. He's still the coach there.
Happe: It's good to see you again.
Ted Koltes: Yeah, great to see you again.
Hoffman: The pond there has a long history. That pond was the first flooded surface in the
Pheasant Hill neighborhood. Brought to the park commission probably a dozen years ago and the
14
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
commission agreed to maintain the pond as an ice surface. And so the city crews would go down
there and there was a neighbor that took the lights across the street from his house and plugged it
into his extension cords and put the lights up, and then we plowed the surface and flooded the
surface out on the ice. That all changed when there was a period of time when we could not get
there to maintain the sheet of ice and so a local contractor brought the Bobcat out and was
scrapping the surface of the ice, which was probably about this thick, and it fell through at the
edge. It just sheared off the ice. The way the Bobcat was in sufficient enough to force the ice
pack down into the mud and crack it, and he lost his entire Bobcat and after that, totally sucked
water into the engine so, the commission said we're not going to take that risk with city
equipment so they abandoned the pond, but then that's when the conversation started okay, well
let's then put it over on dry land in the park so that's the history of that ice sheet there at Pheasant
Hills.
Ted Koltes: You know that type of diligence, you know to create that type of an ice surface
should more than demonstrate the want of our local neighborhood to have ice there. We want ice
and any way we can get it, that's kind of been the point as to make it. And again, I just really
want to reiterate the turnover in the neighborhood and the fact that you have so many, so many
young children there who just even 2 short years ago may not have been of skating age. Any
other questions? And as the last speaker had asked, I would ask the same thing, is there any more
I can do to try to see this through? My neighbor Dan Seaman has talked about getting a petition
going. I'd be willing to do the same thing. I mean if it comes to physically demonstrating to you
the number of people that want to have it, that's a step that we're willing to take if need be, but
we'll put our money where our mouth is so to speak, and if you give us the opportunity we'll
prove it to you how this park would be utilized.
Franks: Thank yOu for coming and speaking up to us tonight.
Ted Koltes: Thanks for having me. Great to see you David.
Franks: And for the update on the old alma mater.
Happe: Benilde-St. Margaret's Red Knights.
Ted Koltes: Yes sir.
Franks: Alright. I'd like to bring this back to the commission and Commissioner Happe, since I
cut you off, I want to start with you so we can finish up with your remarks.
Happe: Neighborhood versus community parks. $35,000 of ballpark savings. I think that in
light of the fact that there are several new neighborhoods in Chanhassen, our conversation and
scope should not be limited to the 7 previous neighborhoods that have been flooded previously. I
think that if we're going to open up to a community dialogue on whether or not this flooding
should continue to exist in neighborhood parks, then all neighborhoods should have an
opportunity to have this. That being said, I'm in support of spending community dollars for
community assets, and in this case I would feel a community asset is a community park that
would have access for all of our residents that end up paying this $35,000 to use that ice facility.
Franks: Can you clarify that for me a little bit?
Happe: Well I think if, I think by definition if they're neighborhood parks, they're going to
gather that cloister of neighborhood residents, as those neighborhood parks are designed for. And
15
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
in a community park, even if you take a Bandimere Park that we were talking about as an
example and say, it's a community park. It's a destination point for several neighborhoods versus
being defined or designed for that particular neighborhood.
Franks: So in a sense what you're suggesting is since this cost burden is being spread throughout
the entire community, that these facilities more aptly be located in community park facilities as
opposed to the neighborhood parks.
Happe: That's correct. That's correct.
Franks: Thanks. Okay. Anything else?
Happe: That's it for me. Thanks.
Franks: Commissioner Spizale.
Spizale: I think, I as a kid did a lot of skating on neighborhood parks, which was my big thing
too. That's what I did through the winter. I would hate to see us, I would like to save some
money by not spraying some of the parks that aren't used at all, or maybe re,asseSsing some of
those parks, but I would I think, it's probably too drastic. We should be, take another look at it. I
think it's the one thing we offer in the winter time.,, as I mentioned before. I would have to say
that it's a little bit too drastic, be my feeling. That's about it.
Franks: Jack, can I ask a question?
Spizale: Yeah.
Franks: When you say that you want to take another look at it, what do you have in mind by that?
Spizale: Well I think as we kind of take a look at this usage thing, you know possibly the parks
that have the lowest amount of usage, maybe we should cut off let's say 3 of those instead of 7.
Franks: Okay do you have, and when you look at the usage from 2001, 2000, 2001, 2002, what
are your ideas there, or have you considered that?
Spizale: I haven't had a chance to really go through that, but maybe 7 is too drastic. Maybe it
should be half of that. I'd love to save the money too. And maybe we should just cut out half
those. Take another look at it next year and see what kind of use in a good year we do get.
Happe: If we cut off half, that would likely include Pheasant Hills that Mr. Koltes just spoke
about.
Spizale: It might.
Hoffman: Yeah, the ranking is the lowest use is Meadow Green, then Pheasant Hills, then Rice
Marsh, then Carver Beach.
Atkins: Aren't Carver Beach and Meadow Green fairly close to each other?
Hoffman: Yep.
16
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Atkins: I mean for sure one of those could go.
Happe: Which two were those Paula?
Atkins: Carver Beach and Meadow Green are quite close. Same general area.
Hoffman: One of the quirks here is that Meadow Green happens to be in one of highest density
areas and it gets the most limited use.
Franks: Which is almost a community park in a sense. Almost.
Hoffman: But staff has always felt that it's close enough to the warming house at City Center
that people make the drive. Jack, when you skated as a kid, was it a hockey rink? Did it have
lights and warming house?
Spizale: It had both but I mean... I don't think we'd want much further than that.
Hoffman: Because that's an image that a lot of staff has maintained as well is that people grew
up with these rinks in the winter, but by and large the model was hockey rink with lights, boards
and a warming house because the parent will allow a child to walk a distance if they know they
have a warming house where there's an attendant, some friends, lights. We have this difficulty of
should we pursue this program and enlarge it and put lights in, and then these neighborhood
parks, lights are not as popular as you'd like to imagine. And then just keep in the back of your
mind, Roundhouse Park does include a spot for a hockey rink and lights. That conversation has
not been played out and those people are aware that that is on the master plan. They haven't been
asking for it for the past half a dozen years.
Spizale: I'm done.
Franks: Okay, thank you. Commissioner O'Shea.
O'Shea: Yeah, I think the driver that I heard Jerry say is financial and usage, and I don't see
some figures of either. I don't see a savings of $35,000. I see it being transferred to another
department and that was unclear what it will be...so I don't see that the city's going to save
$35,000. And I think the neighbors have one, I think they were, they'd be shocked if they all of a
sudden they weren't flooding if it was a normal winter season. I think the assumption that they
weren't flooded was a prudent decision because it'd be a waste last year when it was melting. I
think they have a right to be informed, and I know that opens up a lot of discussion but maybe
that isn't bad. That they should be informed of the decision and be, and told what usage that
needs to have in order to stay open the following season. I think it'd be great to see the parks
used year round and the only way it seems to be used year round is ice skating and ice skating and
hockey's huge here, that I think it is drastic to all of a sudden just close these. So I think the
neighborhoods should be informed. They should be given how much usage those ice skating
rinks need this year in order to be able to be maintained, because there are, you know we're
adding all these neighborhood parks and sure, we can't flood every neighborhood park but I think
we need some guidelines then that say, you know we need this amount of usage and this is what
we look at and other factors. So I support that the neighbors be contacted in these areas. Told
what the exact minimum usage needs to be this year, and then I think staff or whoever needs to go
out there on a warm Saturday or a high usage over Christmas break and really survey these. I
mean I don't I mean sitting out there and, you know that's a like an expensive amount of money
in salaries but I think sound numbers because I don't feel comfortable with these numbers. That
17
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
they're sound and exact. And pick high usage over Christmas break and see what's happening
there, and then if you come back and say there isn't usage, then as a commissioner I feel able to
make a prudent decision on those numbers then. And oh, just one more thing. And I think, and
again because I am new to this commission I may not know the philosophy but to schedule and
actually have time for, and my son plays hockey so I'm not certainly opposed to hockey time at
the outdoor ice, but when they're there, paying taxpayers that aren't in hockey can't use those
hockey rinks, I think that should be re-visited so they pay some type of support like you do when
you go to the community center. It doesn't matter if you're a member or not. You're still paying
on expensive ice time and it's a very expensive thing to maintain, so and that would help them
maintain neighborhood ice rinks because I think, I've been there and say well I'm a taxpaying
citizens. I want to use this too. It's scheduled for hockey so.
Ruegemer: Generally as a rule of thumb when we do schedule organized types of hockey in
some locations that we have multiple rinks, we always keep one hockey rink for the general
public and the pleasure rinks. And then for example the Rec Center is one of those types of
locations. We don't do any hockey at the Roundhouse Park. The North Lotus, we have the rinks
open from 4:00 to 5:30. Have organized practice then from 5:30 to 7:30, and then it's open from
7:30 to 9:00 for the general public so we have 2 hours on the rinks. City Center Park and North
Lotus, so we're not totally scheduling out those rinks that taxpayers aren't having an opportunity
to use those. The pleasure rinks are still open and then the hockey rinks are being used for a
block of 2 hours.
O'Shea: Yeah, and it was just a suggestion that I think if it's scheduled time it's different than if
you strap in and, so that's just my comments.
Hoffman: Can you give me an estimate on what we're talking about for hours given the hockey
people?
Ruegemer: Well it's really 5 nights a week in a lot of the locations, for outdoor ice. With the
exception of some Fridays here and there so.
Franks: Commissioner Kelly?
Kelly: sO to piggy back on Commissioner O'Shea's comment, do 'you charge for soccer field
usage when people have tournaments at Bandimere, or are they paying a usage for use of those
soccer fields?
Ruegemer: No.
Kelly: Softball fields? I'm just wondering if it's uniform per sport or if it's just hockey that's
getting a.
Ruegemer: No. We are not, we don't charge anybody for the use of the facilities.
Kelly: Just a comment I had, and this is really back of the envelope, or back of the e-mail type
numbers but I was just looking at the average operation cost per day. I think that's the best
statistic because it is kind of normalized for the days open, and if you look at the difference
between 2000-2001, 2001-2002, it's about $215 difference and you could say okay, that's
attributed to the fact that you closed several rinks weren't flooded, so divide that by 7. You get
about $30, again this is very rough. Maybe $30 per day it may cost to maintain an additional
rink. Per day would be per usage day, so I'm not too sure where the $35,000 came from. It
18
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
seems to be, if there's 80 days, 80 usage days, you're talking maybe $2,500 additional per fink.
There may be some fixed cost that go into setting up the park. If that' s a lot, or if that' s not a lot,
I don't know but I just thought it wasn't as high as I thought it was going to be. And I live in a
neighborhood where I mean I wish Bandimere had a fink and a lot of people have come up to me
to say hey, it'd be great just for my kids to be able to walk over to Bandimere Park and go
skating. I think there's a lot to be said for walking to a skating rink as opposed to getting a whole
bunch of kids in a car or van and driving you know 4 or 5 miles to go skating so I do agree with
what Commissioner O'Shea said and it might be good to give these neighborhoods, put them on
notice this year saying hey we've noticed in the past that these rinks aren't being utilized. If this
trend continues we may be forced not to support these rinks going into future seasons, but just to
cut them off now without any advanced warning, you know, may not be appropriate so those are
my only comments.
Franks: Okay, thank you. Commissioner Atkins.
Atkins: I certainly think that we should continue with the Pheasant Hills ice rink this year. That
was very heart felt and I believe that that fink will be used. I think that a couple of these really
should be cut probably and have a look, and possibly then next year if we hear a lot about that,
then it's time to re-look at it. Or look at it again next year, but you know it's such a variable thing
with your winters around here. You just never know what's going to happen but I can't imagine
taking away all these little rinks, neighborhood rinks. I think that'S not a gOod thin~, and that's
all.
Franks: Todd or Jerry, I just want to ask a question on Commissioner Kelly's numbers, because I
came up with the same thing and went through kind of the same process. And yet we're, so are
we talking about the amount of staff time it takes to flood these rinks? Is that how you're coming
up with the $5,000, $7,000?
Hoffman: There's additional costs that are involved. It's not just salary time. A few years back
the City Council wanted to do, oh budgeting by product and so ice rinks were assigned $120,000,
if I recall the figure correctly, cost of ice rink program was $ !20,000 per year. And so you, and
that included one big number in there which you need to be aware of is included cost of water,
which is a product which we take out of the city water system and it's not a hard cost that
anybody has to pay. So then, excuse me?
Kelly: I said but it's hard water...
Hoffman: And then the staff time, or part of that that you have there is modified, and then there's
administrative time, the warming houses, the rink attendants, those costs that go into the entire
program as well, so the cost starts to escalate when you take a look and add in all the overhead
and all the other costs that are associated with the rinks. Staff time, which is just a part of that.
And as we continue down the process of determining what we're going to do with the program,
we can take a look at that in a couple different directions and provide those numbers. One thing
I'm hearing tonight is that you may, you're not comfortable with this and you may just want to
put these neighborhoods on notice. Send them a letter saying that the commission is studying this
and that your rink has been known to at least receive however we want to come up with a letter,
and that next year, if the low usage continues, that your rink, it would seem to put it at risk but
your rink may be one of the neighborhoods in the Chanhassen ice skating program. Then we
have some time to talk about how you want to qualify that because I think that is more difficult
than we would tend to want to think. If you're an anthropologist, you're going to look at the
tracks because Amy, I'm trying to track with you but if you show up at 4:00 on a Saturday, they
19
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
may have been, the place may have been packed the 2 previous hours but then everybody leaves
so I don't think that would give you an accurate count either. And we've always tried this, in fact
the park industry in general really struggles with how to come up with an accurate use numbers
because it's an outdoor facility that's used 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. on an average day in our park
system and so other than trying to track the use, there's other signals. You know to how much
use is out there. There's tracks in the snow. There's litter at the facility. There's tracks around
the edge so I think these folks are fairly accurate in giving at least some type of a use pattern here.
And so I can't come up with how we would do that other than having the rink attendants that
were there and they counted bodies... The number of people. It'd going to be difficult...how
these rinks gets used. And when you get a room full of people and they come and testify, I'll
guarantee you'll hear, at Minnewashta every year we've had it, we can't believe these numbers.
We're out there so perhaps we want to slow the process down. Put these folks on notice. Come
up with some good criteria and then come in next year. The program is budgeted and the
program's ready to do as we currently have it, but we want to make sure that we, because the
department and as a city overall I think you'll find that we want to, if things aren't working, we
want to take a look at it. We don't believe in continuing on just because it's always been that
way so that's why we're here today.
Franks: And my experience and history with this is, this is not a new issue. We've struggled for
5 years attempting to quantify how many skaters are at rinks and we have put it off and we have
put neighborhoods on notice in a sense and we've done all those things and you know I'm
looking at the latest information we have and things just really haven,t changed. I'm having
some difficulty justifying a cost, not all of the cost here, correct. Not all the cost is a Cash outlay
cost. But there's costs that are incurred in the projects not getting completed and overhead usage
that's going to administer this program. You know if we look at the numbers, which I believe to
be the, which what we've struggled with, I believe to be the best way to quantify that we have
available to us. Really Pheasant Hills is one that would go. You know it's low on the list. I also
agree with Commissioner Happe that the base and population centers of Chanhassen are changing
and these original neighborhood rinks were outside of locations decided upon when the
population was distributed a little bit differently than it is now. And I think this needs, if any kind
of a review needs to occur, it needs to be an entire city review with all the neighborhoods being
able to participate in the review. I'm really at a point where I think we need to make a decision.
We need to make sure that we have ice as an amenity available to the residents. I don't, I can't
see at this point really justifying the expense, the time, the cost in maintaining these
neighborhood parks that our information indicates just really aren't getting a use. Considering
too that the cost for these things comes right out of the general fund, which is experiencing a
tremendous amount of pressure and we're actually as a commission making requests against that
general fund for I think some pretty important and high priority items and part of me is saying,
we need to really make these requests in a financially responsible way and make some priorities
and some of those decisions are going to be tough and they're going to be painful but you know
no matter how we decide these things, they're going to be painful to somebody. And what I'm
looking at are numbers that are not as significant for some of the other things that we'd be
interested in making requests for. So I know Todd that you're suggesting that we kind of put this
on notice and deal with it again but that sounds a lot like the discussion we had last year and I
really, I know that we've had some turnover on the commission so I've got the benefit of some of
the experience that the rest of us don't, some don't have. But my personal feeling would be that
it's time to make a decision now, and that we consider that this come up as an item for annual
review. We certainly know how to create a neighborhood skating rink. We certainly have the
means to do that. We've removed a rink and added one back and it wasn't a particularly difficult
process for that rink to get going again. And so I don't know if this is a permanent situation, but I
think considering the current circumstances that this is a responsible move to make, although
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Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
painful for some people, and that we should really follow the recommendation of staff and really
focus our ice activities in the rink areas that are indicated on the map so. Any other comments.
I'm wondering if there is anyone who's willing to offer a motion.
Atkins: I have a question, one more question.
Franks: Sure, go ahead.
Atkins: Did you have this same discussion last year at this time and the same recommendation?
Franks: Well not exactly the same discussion, but almost the same discussion. And not only last
year.
Atkins: That's interesting.
Hoffman: Staff never made the recommendation to cut this many rinks.
Atkins: Okay.
Hoffman: But We've had the discussion.
Franks: Well we'll just break with exactly how we're supposed to run this meeting Ted and we'll
give you a chance to say something.
Ted Koltes: I don't disagree with what you're saying in terms of cost, but I would volunteer
though is that our neighborhood in particular has spoken up. Where are the rest of them?
Franks: Yeah, and I can really appreciate that personally. Now this is maybe going to sound a
little jaded but I've been sitting up here for a while and it's, this is not the first time that people
from a neighborhood have come and said yes, we're really going to do this. Of course everyone
is going to want a rink in their neighborhood. Why wouldn't you? You know. And when it
comes down to the actual use, you know we can see, I'm going to work with the numbers that we
have and we can see for the last 2 years that we have numbers, honestly the numbers for Pheasant
Hills are not good as far as their usage. And so we're attempting to extrapolate on some
unknowns about what that future usage might be. I'm not willing to do that. '
Ted Koltes: But the populous is such and the turnover is such that the numbers of 2 years ago
don't represent fully, that would be a point that I would contend, number one. And number two,
if you can break this down into a $30 per day cost for the people that have represented themselves
in here for them to take their kids and go to the Chaska Community Center to skate and to pay,
it's going to cost them more than that $30.
Franks: Right, but they don't have to do that. They can bop down Galpin to Bluff Creek
Elementary without going to the Chaska Community Center and skate on a nice facility. I don't
think that the $30 a day is quite the complete figure either. I mean it's one way to look at it but
we've gone over how there's other costs that aren't direct cash outlay costs there involved in
getting these rinks up and going and keeping them maintained.
Ted Koltes: Because there is no warming house or electricity or rink attendant or any other fees
associated with that fink, it's just the actual maintenance costs, which unless I'm
misunderstanding you, these are fixed budgeted costs already in place.
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Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Franks: Right. My understanding is those numbers are between about $5,000 and $7,000 a year
to maintain a pleasure rink in a neighborhood park. And that's been fairly consistent information
that's been provided to us over the last few years. The warming house itself adds 25, what is it?
Ruegemer: About $1,200 to $1,500.
Franks: $1,200 to $1,500.
Ruegemer: Per.
Franks: Per warming house per season. And then the rink, and then of course the warming house
attendant.
Ted Koltes: Isn't that part of why we pay nearly 4 grand a year in city taxes?
Franks: Well now we don't have control over setting the taxes every year. Attempting what
we're, you know we pay taxes for city services and here on the park commission, when it comes
to park issues, I think we want to provide the biggest bang for everyone's dollar.. And what I was
suggesting here for me, in my opinion, and there's obviously some different opinion on the
commission, is that we might be able to get more for our money than what we're spending on
some of these pleasure rinks when we are providing a skating, ice skating available to anyone
who is willing and able to go to a community park. We're not contemplating an all or nothing.
We're looking at providing this service to the community in a way that's going to serve, I think,
the entire community, Maybe not in the way we would all like, but I think in the most
responsible way. So what I'd like to do is see if there is some kind of a motion that can come
from the commission.
Happe: Just a point of clarification Todd. Is the motion that we would make is recommending to
the City Council what they do and do not fund? Or what is the determination that we would be
motioning tonight?
Hoffman: Correct. You would make that recommendation.
Happe: It's a recommendation for funding to the City Council?
Hoffman: Well it's for operations. For policy and that would be placed on their consent agenda
for their approval. Mr. Koltes, or any other citizen would obviously have the right to appeal your
decision to the City Council. Therefore it goes to the City Council, is placed on their consent
agenda so they're made aware of it and if those appeals are made there, then the City Council can
act accordingly.
Franks: And is there notification for that just through the official publication in the paper, or are
people, interested people informed personally when that's coming before the City Council?
Hoffman: Generally, depending on the focus of the conversation and the age of the last
conversation with those individuals, it's sent to them directly and then in the paper, but if it's a
conversation that's aged and last season...
Franks: So I'm going to suggest that you and your neighbors, depending on how this plays out
today with the commission, the recommendation that we make to the City Council, you pay
22
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
attention to that and if it's something you want to make sure that you voice your opinions to the
City Council, you may certainly do that. Staff has made a recommendation. We can see it on our
paper there.
Happe: Chairman Franks, I do have a motion that I would like to make. Consistent with staff
recommendation I move that we advise the City Council that we would recommend that they
maintain warming house locations at the Chan Rec Center, City Center Park, Roundhouse Park,
and North Lotus Park for the upcoming season, along with the 8 skating surfaces that are
identified in the staff recommendation. I also recommend that the pleasure finks at the 7 listed
neighborhood park locations in the staff recommendation not be maintained for the upcoming
winter season.
Franks: Thank you Commissioner Happe. Is there a second to that motion? Seeing no second,
the motion fails. Is there an additional motion from the commission?
Kelly: I would like to make a motion to City Council that the 7 parks mentioned for being shut
down this year be, instead be put on a probation, a one year probationary period with letters going
out to the nearby residents informing them that low usage in the 2002-2003 skating season will
result probably in the fink closure for the 2003-2004 skating season.
Franks: Okay. There's been a motion. Is there a second?
Spizale: I second it.
Franks: The motion's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion regarding, the motion?
O'Shea: I have one. It concerns me though that we'll have the same kind of figures as we did
this year, and I'm not Saying it's an easy job but to...motion there's got to be a way that we have
sounder numbers because if I felt comfortable with those numbers, with notice to the neighbors,
then I could agree with staff but I really don't feel comfortable with those numbers. I don't have
the answer how we're going to get those numbers, but if we don't put it in there, we're going to
get the same numbers as we did in the papers we have now, that I, the addition is we need
somehow better gathering of usage numbers and let's...staff how to do that but, so as we're
looking at it I would want to add to that, to Tom's motion.
Happe: Is there a friendly amendment added in that or, I didn't quite.
Franks: Are you proposing a method to quantify these numbers?
O'Shea: Well I could. It would mean a...but I don't honestly have an answer right now of how
you'd do that, other than what I shared before is, you need to get there during break.
Franks: My feeling is if that's the direction that you are, some commissioners are interested in
going, is that we're not at a point to make a determination about how exactly to count usage. And
then if that's what the intent is to go forward with a strong recommendation, I don't think it
necessarily appropriate at this time until you can really fill in those details.
O'Shea: Then it's not a staff decision? More policy more than.
Franks: Well what I'd be interested then would be necessary is for this to go back to staff for
them to develop some recommendations about how this rink usage can be quantified and then for
23
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 .
us to determine whether that's sufficient or not for what your purposes are and the commission
would forward at that point.
Hoffman: We can do that.
Franks: So what we might be able to do then is to, I know that there's a motion that's on the floor
fight now that's been seconded, but one of the things that we may choose to do then is to table
this issue until such time as staff can present to us what their recommendations would be for more
accurately quantifying usage. And then going forward and seeing if that is suitable to our
purpose and then making a decision at that time.
Spizale: Would that be too late? As far as what needs to be done now?
Hoffman: No.
Franks: Well we don't start flooding until mid-December, if weather cooperates so...provide
staff enough time to take a look at this issue and see if something can be done.
Hoffman: What we're' looking at is the mechanics of how we're going to quantify these decisions.
Quantify these, the different statistics you want to use to make these decisions.
Franks: Is them any further on the motion currently before the commission?
Spizale: No.
Franks: Okay. Is someone willing to move the previous question? Then we'll bring that motion
for a vote. What I'm thinking is then the motion will fail and a new motion will then be proposed
to table this until such time as staff will present to us recommendations.
Kelly: Can I withdraw my motion?
Franks: Well it's been seconded so, let's just go forward. I feel like I'm running things a little bit
too much. I have another job as a parliamentarian for another organization so I get a little carded
away. Alright. So let's call Commissioner Kelly's original motion for a vote.
Kelly moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that
the 7 neighborhood rinks being recommended being shut down this year instead be put on a
one year probationary period with letters going out to the nearby residents informing them
that low usage in the 2002-2003 skating season will result probably in the rink closure for
the 2003-2004 skating season. All voted in opposition. The motion failed unanimously.
Franks: The motion fails. Is there a new motion?
Kelly: I would like to make a motion to table this discussion until staff can come up with a
method to better quantify usage at the neighborhood ice finks.
Franks: The motion for tabling this agenda item with conditions is before the commission. Is
there a second?
O'Shea: I second.
24
·
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Kelly moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table action on
eliminating ice rinks at neighborhood parks and directing staff to establish a method to
better quantify usage. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Franks: Todd, some marching, Todd and Jerry, some marching orders there.
Hoffman: We will also quantify the dollars, or the expenses...
Todd Hoffman explained to Ted Koltes the action taken by the Park and Recreation Commission.
REVIEW CITY POLICY CONCERNING SPRAYING FOR ADULT MOSOUITOES IN
CITY PARKS.
Franks: I'm operating under the assumption that all of us have taken time to review the material
that's been presented to us. Todd, if you would take some time to hit the high points and then
we'll move forward.
Hoffman: I will hit the highlights and I am glad that I made the, what I consider to be the popular
recommendations on this item because I think it will go much more smoothly. First of all I'm
going to hand out something that I received in today's mail. It's the Metropolitan Mosquito
Control District 2001 Operating Review and Plans for 2002. The Mosquito Control District is a
special tax authority so you'll see that on your taxes. Just a side note. I saw them out checking
today for mosquitoes. I didn't know why but they were scooping and just to make sure they're all
dead. This issue, the file for this' issue is about this thick. You would not have believed the
amount of public testimony that this body took, received back in 90, what were the years. 1991.
It turned into a debate over Mosquito Control District in public spaces. Not just mosquito control
in the city of Chanhassen, and I won't go into that in entire detail but I'll just hit the highlights.
So the Mosquito Control District was out here on September 23r~ to address the City Council.
The minutes of that meeting are attached. The council, with good reason, is concerned about the
health concerns with the mosquito disease that we have now on the topic of conversation on the
topic of conversation so, the council asked the park commission to review the city's current
policy of not permitting the spraying of chemicals for adult mosquitoes in city parks. There is no
ban on spraying the briquettes or the corn cob granulars in these parks, and those briquettes or
granulars go in the wet areas and they change the chemistry of the larval mosquito and they never
hatch. Adult mosquitoes, or adultricide, this is where they go through with the fogger. It was
quite popular I think, you know we all remember the, going through the neighborhoods with these
large foggers. They don't do that quite as much anymore, but they specially hit the times when
there are neighborhood, or community celebration. The 4z of July or a county fair, those type of
things. In '91 we had a complaint where they sprayed for adult mosquitoes in Lake Ann Park.
They sprayed improperly. It left a residue. They sprayed too close to the lake, so there were two
things going on. They had a complaint that two residents became sick from the residue left from
the adult mosquito spray, and then the second one is that they sprayed illegally or not within the
label precautions of the chemical. So they were fined for that. They paid that fine. Complied
with that and said they would not, they trained their applicators and they wouldn't do that any
longer. But then Mr. Rivkin convinced the commission and the council at that time that there was
some sense of health risk associated with the chemical itself and it's reaction it had on him and
his son, and that risk was greater than the risk of having these adult mosquitoes being treated in
the parks. So then we have the resulting debate. What really stood out in that is that there was
very few times, I think in the previous, I've got the statistic in here. They sprayed like 7 times,
and so the commission or the council said, so what's the big deal. We ban adult mosquito
control. They've only sprayed here 7 times in the last half a dozen years anyway. It's not going
25
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
to be a big deal. So in '92 you have the action taken by the city council. Items 1 through 4.
Larval control can remain. Adult mosquito control eliminate the air use and re-evaluate the
program. They shall not land or take their helicopters off at the parks. The staff actively pursue
other methods for controlling mosquitoes. Follow-uP discussion was taken place and again no
changes made in the policies established the previous year. Had a recent correspondence
concerning the activities in addition to e-mails from Mr. Rivkin also attached, so here we are 10
years later. Mr. Rivkin continues to say that the Metropolitan Mosquito Control and mosquito
control in general is all evil. Mosquito Control says, in these times, especially with encephalitis
and the other things that these mosquitoes are threatening us with, that we should be doing more.
Staff comments. These are the conclusions I reached in '92 and they've not changed. And this is
just a common sense stuff. More mosquitoes live to carry out their life cycle in the metro area
than are ever killed by this mosquito control on an annual basis. We're talking a vast majority of
these mosquitoes live. They get around the briquettes. They get around the granulars. They get
around the adult fogging and they're out there looking for us. But reducing the mosquito
population by the number that the Metropolitan Mosquito Control District does kill, or prevents
matching, reduces to some degree, we don't know what that is. The likelihood that you will be
bitten by a mosquito. So you are doing some good. And then given the infrequency of the
chemical appellations made in the early 90's, banning their use seemed inconsequential.
However today, and this is based, this is where my recommendation comes from. In '92 it
seemed reasonable to debate the effectiveness, of spraying for adult mosquitoes versus in the
public parks, but with the increased threat of the West Nile Virus and diseases that we have going
on, I'm recommending the commission recommend the City Council rescind the city's current
policy and permit control for adult mosquitoes in city parklands to resume. With that motion I
guarantee that you will see an extraordinary amount of adult spraying in our parks next year
because Metropolitan Mosquito Control is going to want to come back into Chanhassen and give
us a presence again because they really felt kind of like the orphan child in Chanhassen. That not
very many people cut them out but Chanhassen, the Minnesota River Valley, National Wildlife
Refuge did. Hennepin Parks does not allow adult mosquito controlling, and just so you know
what their, those are natural resource based organizations and their reason for doing this is
because mosquito larva is the basis in the food chain for many living creatures so those
organizations say, yeah we understand the health risk, but we also, as a natural resource
organization, understand that we need to allow these life cycles to continue so they don't spray
for adults or allow the larval control to take place.
Franks: Thank you Todd. What I'd like to do is open this up for any quick questions that any of
the commissioners may have for Todd.
Spizale: One question. These two people the only people that have ever had problems?
Hoffman: That have come forward to the city, yeah. But there's tons of litanies of testimony
about the people that became ill from these chemicals.
Spizale: But these are the only problems we've ever had in our community?
Hoffman: Yes. That have been responded.
Spizale: In a period of how much time? Ever right?
Hoffman: Well for the past dozen years .... so you don't have any recent case studying. Prior to
that, these are the... I'm aware of.
26
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Spizale: That's all I have.
Franks: Thanks. Commissioner Happe.
Happe: Has Mr. Rivkin stayed in touch with you on this Todd or?
Hoffman: Yeah, thus the recent e-mail that you have in your packet.
Happe: Yeah, that's what I was just trying. I thought I saw. I'll save my comments.
Franks: Okay, great. Well Amy, we'll move onto you.
O'Shea: I don't really have any.
Franks: Okay. Throughout' that whole time since '91, they've continued with the briquettes,
correct?
Hoffman: Yes. ·
Franks: And how many areas, park areas have they treated with those briquettes? I know thai
they do the wetlands out at Lake Susan.
Hoffman: I don't know for sure. They keep their own records. They do Rice Marsh Lake, Lake
Susan, there's a variety of areas that I don't have those. I don't have those numbers for you,-for
those areas.
Franks: Now when I was reading the minutes of the park commission meeting, it appeared as if
the spirit of their various motions on this issue was to have this, this mosquito control reviewed
on an annual basis. For sure in '93 it was to be reviewed, but there was some discussion that it
continue to come in for review, but it appeared that didn't happen. Do we happen to know what
the average portion of the allocation to the Mosquito Control District is from the average price
house in Carver County? Do we happen to know that? I know they talked about it back in the
old minutes what the cost was. We're still paying into the mosquito control.
Hoffman: Correct. Absolutely.
Happe: What?
Franks: We're all paying. Every house in Chanhassen, as a part of their tax burden is funded for
mosquito control in Carver County which is including adulticide.
Hoffman: There was talk about in '91, there's no getting out of the program unless the entire
county.
Franks: Well it looks like it takes legislative action on the state level to get out of the program.
'So we're locked into the program. So in a sense we've been, well 'that's comments so I'll move
on. Commissioner Kelly.
Kelly: I don't have. The only question I have is, I read in the, is it true that we are the only city
in the 7 county metro area? Okay. So from this comment in the minutes.
27
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Hoffman: Is incorrect.
Kelly: Was incorrect. Alright.
Hoffman: Over stating.
Kelly: Okay.
Atkins: Does the adult mosquito control involve spraying?
Hoffman: Yes.
Atkins: And would this be for all the parks?
Hoffman: No. Traditionally this would go into the high use areas, Lake Ann, Bandimere, Lake
Susan, City Center, and then most communities, or many communities would call them and
schedule one for the day before the 4th of July. The day before the fireworks. Day before another
special event, so they come out. The Metropolitan Mosquito Control is an independent
governmental agency. They come out and they operate on their own means and 'by their own
methods, and then we can influence them by giving a phone call and saying here's some dates
we'd like to see, and they typically try to accommodate you in those areas, and those requests.
Atkins: And your basic reason for wanting us to rescind this current policy is because of the
development of the West Nile Virus?
Hoffman: And all the fears that go along with it.
Atkins: That's all.
Hoffman:· Seeing that there's no other questions, let's bring this back to the commission for
comments. Since you just ended up Commissioner Atkins, we'll just start with you.
Atkins: Oh I'm a big tree hugger and I really don't like spraying anything around so I'll have to
listen to some of your comments. I'm pretty opinionated about that.
Franks: Why don't you give us your opinion. Let's hear it.
Atkins: Well I'm, chemical control of weeds even, anything pest control really rubs me the
wrong way so I have to hear more about this.
Franks: Okay. Tom.
Kelly: I think for me at least West Nile hit home when I heard about the person in Chaska being
diagnosed this summer with having West Nile, so it was no longer a Louisiana or Alabama issue
where it first came up and it has now come up north here and so I think I'm in favor of adult
spraying just for the fear of, of not eradicating West Nile but maybe limiting it's spread and the
spread of other diseases that those little mosquitoes carry. That's it.
Franks: There's some things that I found interesting in the park commission minutes from July
28, 1992. One is that there's a quote by, it's Harold Trende I think is talking, and suggesting that
allergists stated that people allergic to ragweed could exhibit cross sensitization, could exacerbate
28
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
respiratory diseases like asthma. It's very interesting that my son, who is allergic to ragweed and
has asthma, reacts when they aerial drop the granules for the...and so I happen to be in a family
where we're directly affected by these chemicals that are dropped into our city. What we do is
we're on a notification list that when they are coming by to do their applications we stay inside.
And that has been perfectly satisfactory once we figured out what was going on, and, it's certainly
my opinion that the risks of some of these mosquito borne illnesses are far more dangerous than
telling my son that we need to stay inside for an afternoon. And so whereas in 1991.-92-93 when
they were not looking in the face of the spread of some of these diseases, you know it's probably
prudent for them to take that course of action. I think times have changed now. The situation is
altered to the point where as long as application is done per label and according to the protocol of
their agency, which is something I think as a city we, staff needs to keep a close eye on, that it
seems like a good idea to do it since we're paying for it anyway. And I've heard a lot of
comments about mosquitoes at the 4th of July celebration actually being an incredible nuisance.
So since we're paying for that celebration as well, I think that we should do what we can to make
our parks as enjoyable as possible. Commissioner O'Shea.
O'Shea: My comment would be, I think perception rules and with the threat of West Nile Virus
being so close, that the perception would be negative if someone contracted West Nile Virus and
knew that we were not doing something as a city to prevent it. Again I know you don't know
where you catch it, but I think if there was an outbreak in Chanhassen I'd feel better knowing that
the city did as much as they could to prevent it from happening at least in our city parks. So I do,
and again with Chair Franks comment, I agree. Notification needs to be carried out successfully
to people that do have, that do react to it or want to stay away from it because they fear the
chemical. But I do think it needs to be brought back in.
Franks: Thank you. Dave.
Happe: I agree with Commissioner O'Shea. In reading through the notes from the past
commissions that dealt with this, it was requested but actually declined that it become a
permanent ban. That was supposed to be reviewed on an annual basis. Unfortunately Mr. Rivkin
at the time had a serious medical problem, but that medical problem it seems was caused by an
improper application of the chemicals at that time. There have been other cities that had a similar
ban and my understanding is, at least in some of those cases that similar bans have been rescinded
and I agree with Chairman Franks. Our taxpayers are paying for this service and I will be in
support of spraying for mosquitoes.
Spizale: And I would also be in support of spray because I think we can all enjoy our parks a
little bit more knowing that it's just a little bit safer out there so I would agree.
Happe: Chair Franks, I'd also just mention that the only information that I have was based on my
reading of this packet. I did try to contact Mr. Rivkin. He wasn't available for a conversation
prior to this so.
Franks: Appreciate that effort. I also made some, indicate efforts this morning to actually speak
with some agents in the mosquito control district and of course they took the opportunity to lobby
about re-instituting their services to the city of Chanhassen quite strongly, and I found them to be
fairly persuasive so. Jack, anything?
Spizale: No.
29
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Franks: Before we wrap up I just found it interesting in the park commission minutes from 1992
again that the comments of Al Klingelhutz beginning on page 5, and indicating that he loves to
garden and you can see by the color of his skin that he's out in the sun a lot and then him stating
that he hasn't aged. And I remember when there was mosquito control in this area and at times
we've had rains and moisture, these mosquitoes would almost pick you up and carry you away,
and that was 1992 and I'll tell you in my back yard, and I'm one who loves to garden and I'm
going to say I don't think I've aged either. That the mosquitoes almost picked us up and carded
us away this year. It was just incredible and anything that we can do for Al and I...maybe it's
those same mosquitoes hanging around.
Happe: Whoever does offer a motion on this, it'd be great if they could include a strong
recommendation from the Park and Rec Commission that there be a particular emphasis placed,
as Amy said, on the notification piece of it. We want to make sure that we, if we do re-instate the
spraying, that we spread the word as loud and wide as we can just to make sure that everybody
understands this change in policy.
Hoffman: We're going to do some press release through the newspaper. That's, right there
they'll post it at the entrance to the park but if you want to be on a call list, then you need to
contact and they'll put you on a call list.
Franks: You need to contact them. The other thing Todd, since there's been so much time since
we've actually had this, we may need to go a little bit more out of our way to inform the public
that this is starting up again. This is how you get on the call list. This is what's going on, and
especially during those times when we might be making a request as a city for special
applications in high use areas-for certain events. Tournaments, 4th of July, that kind of thing,
since we'll be making that request ahead of time. That we actually find some way to publish
ahead of time that that will be occurring.
Hoffman: We can do that through the newsletter. Web page.
Franks: Through the newsletter and web page. And through the press release, inform people that
that will be posted on the web page. Is there a motion? Don't be shy. It's right here.
Spizale: I'll make a motion. I make a motion that we recommend that the City Council rescind
the city's current policy and permit control for adult mosquitoes in city parklands to resume. And
to that I will add, maybe we should come up with some type of a better, how should I say?
Letting people know when the park's going to be sprayed...my motion.
Franks: So are you suggesting that the staff then take-appropriate measures to notify through
means available that this program is re-instituting and also in addition, when applications are
going to take place?
Spizale: Yes.
Franks: And along with that information about how to be added to the notification list. And
where the information's going to be posted. Does that clarify your notification?
Spizale: I think that's perfect.
Franks: Alright. Is there a second to that motion?
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Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Happe: Second.
Franks: The motion's been moved and seconded.
Spizale moved, Happe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that
the City Council rescind the city's current policy and permit control of adult mosquitoes in
city parklands to resume. Also, direct staff to take appropriate measures to notify the
public through means available that this program is re-instituting, when applications are
going to take place, information about how to be added to the notification list and where the
information's going to be posted. All voted in favor, except Atkins who opposed, and the
motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1.
Franks: What I'd like to do then is correct the record that Commissioner Atkins has voted in the
negative on the motion and would you like to state your reasons for doing that, if you choose.
Atkins: No thank you.
Franks: Okay. The motion carries.
RECREATION PROGRAM REPORTS:
. .
2002 HALLOWEEN PARTY.
Franks: Jerry, are you filling in for Corey?
Ruegemer: I will.
Franks: Alright. Well we'd like you to do that.
Hoffman: He represents him at time. Corey doesn't purposely not show up here, but he's not
assigned to this meeting' so Mr. 'Ruegemer represents Corey here.
Ruegemer: I am his voice.
Franks: Well you can let Corey know sometime that we certainly wouldn't mind seeing him here
at our meetings, when he has the time to show up for us.
Ruegemer: I'm sure he would enjoy seeing all of you. Just to give you a real quick verbal update
on the Halloween party. We did re-run the flyers, since we had talked last time. They had been
distributed to the schools. We purchased candy last week. Everything is, not a whole lot of hard
candy Rod. Thank you. We have a lot of the key club members, about 30 people helping out
with various games and hay rides and a lot of that sort of thing but just wanted to offer up the
volunteer list again. We're still looking for some costume characters in the kind of friendly
hallway so to speak, and don't worry about a costume. We have plenty of costumes to go around
so if anybody's interested in that. Volunteers will need to be there around 4:45 at the Chan Rec
Center, and we will provide food for you in the form of pizza, sandwiches, something like that to
be determined so, just wanted to let everybody know kind of where we were on that event. I'll
pass around the sheet. I know we had talked about this last time and if anything has changed in
your schedules and you'd like to put your name on the list to join the festivities, we certainly
would appreciate that so I will pass the list. Dave looks eager.
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Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 ,
Franks: It's a fun time.
O'Shea: Jerry, would you, if you need to move me, I'm on there.
Ruegemer: ...and you can certainly hold onto that volunteer list until after the meeting if you'd
like to. Does anybody have any questions on that? I just want to give everyone kind of a brief
update as to where we were at this point.
Franks: And you're moving Half Pint and Oscar to the back...
Ruegemer: We are moving further and further away from that bleacher area.
Franks: And you are set using cones and tape.or something to create a safety area.
Ruegemer: A safe zone if you will.
Franks: Alright. Or something.
Ruegemer: Any other questions?
Franks: Are you having the costume characters on both sides of the center hallway?
Ruegemer: What would you like to see Rod?
Franks: Well it does create some congestion actually. If the costume characters it might, well
you might want to take a look and a have a contingency plan.
Ruegemer: Our numbers are down a bit but we certainly can have a plan B and C.
Atkins: Can I wear my own costume?
Ruegemer: Certainly.
Franks: Oh absolutely.
Atkins: It's not scary but it's cool.
Franks: Great. And how many hay wagons?
Ruegemer: Two.
Franks: Two, good. And out the back door?
Ruegemer: Yeah, go out that north door.
Franks: And is there someone assigned for crowd control?
Ruegemer: We're going to have Boy Scouts.
Hoffman: And some adults.
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Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Ruegemer: Anything else Rod?
Franks: No. No, that's good for me. Thanks.
Ruegemer: Moving on?
Franks: Yep.
2002 TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY.
Ruegemer: For the tree lighting ceremony, as kind of an FYI as to when the date is. Just to
inform the commission if they'd like to put that on their schedule. The second year in a row now
we will be down by the clock tower again as we were in the past. With the library project going
on that, we're limited in space and fuctionability I guess up here. So we did move that, both
celebrations, the ceremony down to kind of where we have been in the past. Once the library
does get finished and the city does, you know they would like to plant a permanent tree, which
probably would be a good idea. We can move that ceremony and that back up to this area again,
so we're kind of in limbo right now. But it is, it's a suitable location for the next year and a half
to two years I guess.
Franks: Not enough space at Pioneer Square or whatever it's called?
Ruegemer: Pioneer Square?
Franks: You up by old St. Hubert's where the old library, city hall.
Atkins: By the old village hall?
Franks: Village hall, yeah right.
Ruegemer: We do have a, we did plant a tree on the opposite side or the north side of West 78th
Street next to the clock tower.
Hoffman: Last year they had it down there but they didn't like crossing the street for the safety.
Ruegemer: But we do have CSO's and personnel there to manage crowd control and traffic
control.
Atkins: Is there any kind of hot drinks or anything?
Ruegemer: Yep, there will be, Corey's coordinating that with the Chamber of Commerce so it
will be food and drink there.
Atkins: It would be fun to have the old village hall open and be able to go in there~
Franks: Well I guess that's where I was going.
Hoffman: Are they still talking about using both sides?
Ruegemer: Oh for sure.
33
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 .
Franks: Oh, we are still talking about using both sides? And is there anyway to have the village
hall open?
Hoffman: It was last year.
Franks: Okay, so we're going to still do that?
Ruegemer: Yeah, and that's the chamber office. I would think that that'd be beneficial for them.
Happe: Chapel Hill Academy is always involved with volunteers, especially around the snacks
and the caroling, etc. Are they not an official sponsor of the event with the City of Chanhassen
and the Chamber or are they falling under the direction of one of those two organizations?
Ruegemer: Well, right. They would be really under the City for that. I mean it's the Chamber
and the City have kind of co-sponsored the event in the past so, we're kind of the two driving
forces I guess.
Franks: Great, thank you.
Atkins: What's the date on that?
Ruegemer: Saturday, December 7u~.
2003 FEBRUARY FESTIVAL.
Ruegemer: And the last item would be the 2003 February Festival. Just to kind of, another kind
of FYI just to get it on your calendars. It will be Saturday, February 1st OUt at Lake Ann so. A lot
of things will be similar as they have been in the past. Really one of the main focuses being on
the ice fishing contest so any new ideas or suggestions we will certainly welcome those.
Happe: Sure feels like the ice is going to be frozen this year.
Hoffman: You never know.
Franks: Great, thank you Jerry.
ADMINISTRATIVE:
A. PARK MASTER PLAN PROGRESS, PULTE LAND ACOUISITION
B. COMPREHENSIVE LONG RANGE CAPITAL REPLACEMENT PLAN.
Hoffman: Thank you Chair Franks, members of the commission. Both of these items have been
discussion items for the commission and the City Council over the past few months. The
Arboretum Village parkland, many of you toured that here a month ago. History on that, as a
condition of the approval for the Arboretum Village, 16.9 acres of parkland was dedicated to the
city, and you see that on the cross hatched area on the plan. A large area of wetlands. The city
granted park dedication credit of 5 acres which totaled 79 percent of the required park dedication
for this project. The City Council's intent in taking this additional property was to expand the
Bluff Creek preservation zone. To that end it's the best interest of the city to develop a park
master plan for this property focusing on preservation, and the area which we're talking about
that was taken for expansion is right... As we stood out there we took the trail off the end of this
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Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
cul-de-sac and the city would not acquire this property right here. It would have been townhomes.
It was this area. In essence we traded in our park dedication cash for this land. If the city had not
done that, this cul-de-sac would have been extended out...
Franks: So the 79 percent is the 5 acres of the 8 that was eligible for us to take? Approximately.
Hoffman: Yes. So we are collecting the remaining 21 percent in park dedication fees on the
remaining property. So the intent here, this is the Bluff Creek preservation zone. This is an
expansion of that. What this does is provide for some upland habitat as a part of that Bluff Creek
wetland area, and so I believe the council's intent at that time at least... The second item, and
these go hand in hand with the recommendation. The second item is the long range capital
replacement plan for park improvements. Chanhassen is a relatively young community and
we've been expanding for 10 to 20 years, building new facilities. We are just now seeing the
aging of these improvements and generally that includes playground facilities, our asphalt
surfaces, fencing, buildings, and the time has arrived to pay a little closer attention to those needs
in the area of repair and replacement. Up until now it works fairly efficiently in a small
organization and that's relatively new. When things start going wrong, you monitor them. For
example tennis court holes start to froze heave and so you live with it until it's just so bad, then
you try to package up a project and have those repaired. The City Council would like with their
key financial strategies, would like to get a little closer handle on what kind of costs we're talking
about...future. Asphalt surfaces is one of many areas. The city's engineering department
maintains a pavement management plan for the city streets. They have' expressed a willingness
that they will incorporate our asphalt surfaces into their assessment portion of the programming,
and each spring their consultant would go out and look at all those city trails and all the parking
lots located within the city park, which is right around 25 parking lots if you think about it...
throughout our park system so that's a good deal of asphalt surfaces. We will deliver to.them an
inventory of our surfaces, allowing them to do that. But then it's the financing portion of it is our
responsibility and so we have to again provide for funding through the general capital budget to
make sure that those things are... A little history in this area, for the past 4 or 5 years we've
allocated approximately $30,000 in general fund monies to go ahead and do some overlays on
these trail systems. The second one, juSt an example. The city currently owns 10 wooded
playground structures that do not meet city safety standards, or do not meet safety standards.
Currently these playgrounds are on a 5 year replacement schedule. Next year we have Meadow
Green and Curry Farms Park in there. I'm recommending that we accelerate that program and
include 4 in 2004, 4 again in 2005. The cost of replacing these playgrounds will exceed a half a
million dollars so this is a, these are the type of things where you start to see, there was a rapid
build-out 10 to 15 years ago. Those structures have now aged for a number of reasons. They're
wood, and they were built at a time when safety standards weren't as stringent as they are today.
And back then they met the safety standards. Today they do not. The city in good standing could
not allow those structures to stay in there for too many more years, but I don't believe we have
the ability to go ahead and replace all half a million in one year, so we would like to stage that
over 3 years. Formalizing these and other long range capital replacement fees, a 20 year
document is recommended. That's a fairly large endeavor. It will take a great deal of inventorying
and really the same type of analysis that you talked about tonight. So how do you, and
Commissioner Stolar has been talking about the Eden Prairie studies. How do you categorize
that? How do you place, you know which park receives which priority? So it's staff
recommendation that the commission recommend to the City Council, direct staff to prepare
letters, requested proposals for both at Arboretum Village parkland acquisition master plan, and
then'a separate document which would be a 20 year capital repair and maintenance plan for park
improvements. These would be consultant contracts that we would hire qualified consultants to
35
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
come in and provide those services to the city, and those contracts would be awarded on the
lowest qualified bidder basis.
Franks: Thank you Todd. A couple of quick questions. One is, about the master plan for the
Arboretum Village acquisition. I don't remember us making a determination about whether we
are interested in passive development or active development of that 5 acre parcel.
Hoffman: That would be part of the conversation and those neighbors would certainly be
involved in that.
Franks: Is that something that we should actually do before we offer up a creating master plan
out to a consultant for bidding and for work? I guess what I'm wondering if, do we want to take
things one step at a time first and make some determination. Work with the residents of that area
to determine what the needs are and how we want to philosophically move forward with
development to that 5 acre parcel. And then after that point, work with the consultants about
developing it and according to those lines. I just feel there's...
Hoffman: That's the commission's choice.
Franks: Well there's a reason why yOu've chosen to do it this way and I guess I'm interested in
hearing.
Hoffman: Well, I only alluded to that the council took this property for preservation or
enlargement or embellishment of the Bluff Creek natural resource. They did not place a
designation that it would be passive or active, but at least in my recollection that was their
reasoning and why they would like to see this property preserved. But I also recall they had
conversations at the time, are the private neighborhood amenities, these little totlots sufficient to
meet the park needs of not only this neighborhood but the adjoining neighborhood, which will be
Vasserman Ridge, which the commission and the City Council chose not to acquire parkland
from because they said no, we're spending our money next door. We're acquiring 5 acres next
door so you may in fact have residents that currently aren't there today that would like a very nice
walk out their back door to a much different park than just a passive park. So this is a
conversation that needs to be played out and I don't have a specific recommendation on how you
would choose to do that. That's a community based decision in my mind.
Franks: My feeling is we should have that conversation first before we send this out to
consultants. And I don't k. now how other commissioners feel about that. Any comments?
Hoffman: It's common that that is part. of the process when you bring a consultant in. First thing
they do is they sit down in a community meeting with the commission and the neighbors and
anybody else and say alright, we don't know what this park is going to be, and then you start,
your control is gone at that point and you go out there and...community and now it's a part of
that process. And that recommendation then would come back to the commission.
Happe: How have we done it in the past Rod?
Hoffman: It' s not been that big of a question.
Franks: No it's not.
Happe: So it's been dedicated as passive or active beforehand?
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Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Hoffman: Right. Or at least the much more defined.
Franks: Well I know Todd you're aware of what my feelings are concerning this all so part of
that comes from that attitude about, you know if there's work that we can do and actually have
been working for us and what we're looking to accomplish, I feel more comfortable with that.
Now if that's something that, in attempting to do we just lose positive control over how that
property gets developed because we create some kind of monster, then maybe that's not the way
to go and that's where I'm kind of looking for your expertise.
Hoffman: You could simply make a recommendation to the City Council tonight that you want
that to be passive or you want that to be active and you want that to be a combination of those
two. If they feel comfortable with that and receive a motion on the council, or a confirmation of
that motion, then you're ready to move forward.
Franks: The one thing that we wouldn't be able to do, if we were to act on that tonight is to have
input from the surrounding community there about how it is that they're looking to have that
developed.
Hoffman: Yeah, we've had a little bit of this discussion tonight and one thing that we, I always
urge commissioners to remember is that even if you have that conversation today, all the players
won't be there. There are sometimes when you as representatives of the community need to
represent not only the people that are there today, but the people that are going to be there in the
future and make your best judgment. There are times when calling the neighborhood isn't
beneficial because there are times when all you're going to hear is one side of the equation, and
then you're putting undue pressure on yourselves in a situation to make a decision where you're
trying to please a crowd full of people. So you don't always have to have the public present to
make public decisions. That's one reason you're appointed.
Franks: What I'd like to do personally is take a closer look and a more and creative, broader
context for what we're doing here and include in that closer look an examination of what we're
expecting from Pulte in their amenity areas. And then take a look on overlays of where that
neighborhoods to the north and east are coming in and exactly the trail connectors and the number
of homes and that kind of thing so we can actually see some of the numbers. I know that we,
Pulte has provided those numbers already, but if we can like have them all laid out so we can see.
You know what are the expected demographics in this area? What are the single family homes
that we're looking at going in that will be connected by trail to this area? And you know what's
the, let's layout the radius of the other neighborhood parks and community parks and access to
those. Then I think we can have a little bit greater comprehensive picture of what we might be
looking to develop there, based on our experience. And then, before we put out the cash to hire
the consultants to do this, really make that idea known to the City Council as we look for that
confirmation that we're heading in the direction that they're in approval of. Since they're the
body that's going to have to approve the expenditure for that so.
Hoffman: At that 'time the consultant process becomes almost the master planning process.
Much more defined so it's easier, because now if you're telling them this is what we want, and
design it, that' s a much more defined job for that individual.
Franks: I just, in my opinion, and maybe I'm, you know I don't have the experience obviously
that you do but we retain a little bit more control over the process at that point by doing it that
way.
37
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Happe: Rod, I agree with your thought process because I for one don't have enough education or
information to be able to even cast a vote tonight...because I wouldn't, without having the detail
or the information that you're talking about, I don't know how we could make that decision.
Franks: Are we agenda heavy for the next couple meetings?
Hoffman: Some budget stuff. Other than that...
Franks: Okay. Are we looking at, we're not looking at potential development in the next
construction season for this parcel anyway?
Hoffman: No. The biggest item that will come back next 3 to 4 months is the, what are they
calling the one down south? Bernardi property.
Franks: The Bernardi property. Alright. Any other comments? Questions?
Happe: I have a comment on the long range capital replacement, actually a question. On the long
range capital replacement plan. In my mind what I had was a Schedule A that listed all the
amenities that we owned when we implemented them by park. How long we thought they would
last~ What the replacement value would be of those amenities. And then Schedule B would then
just roll that up, not by park but by year. So Schedule A is a breakout by park. Schedule B is
then annual summary of our forecast for replacement or wear and tear on those amenities or
assets that we own, and I just question as to if, you're recommending that we go for a consulting
firm again that' s capable of helping us compile that. Is that because of visual inspection would be
needed on a regular basis of that or why would we need a consultant to step in and help us
prepare that type of forecast?
·
Hoffman: The complekity of the documents, the time involved. Staff could accomplish it, but
it's one of those things where you would 'say, okay now I'm going to have to step out of what I'm
doing today and re-focus 50 percent of my energy over here to create this document and the ramp
up time is just going to be so great. There are areas that I'm not certified in that these people are
going to say, alright architecturally, structurally, CPSC, ASTM standards, these things are not
being met. And they are working with that on a daily basis. I'm certainly aware of those and I
can find out, if I need to, but on a 35 park, 22 playground basis, my time was better invested
doing other work. And there's no one else here that would be capable or has the appropriate job
description to perform that duty so this is one of those areas where a consulting f'u'm comes in and
really, you get a lot for your money.
Happe: Is it something that once that's established, or once that initial front work has been
completed by that consultant. I'm also seeing that you're recommending a 20 year plan with a 5
year review. Would it be overkill to suggest that there could be an additional year tacked on
annually and that that could be just a working document or a working plan that's reviewed more
than every 5 years, just to make sure that we're keeping up with the intended purpose of properly
forecasting?
Hoffman: A couple thoughts on that. Capital is always reviewed annually because you make a
recommendation, and so this document, you're going to say okay. Here's your 2004. Here's
what we have recommended for replacement. Now did it come true? Because the longer you go
out, the greater error. Okay so let's say we're looking at 2009. Okay, did all that stuff come
true...before the commission. If it is, then it comes up. So there is annual review forced upon
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Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
you by your annual CIP. So I didn't feel it's necessary that we review that entire document
annually as well. But every 5 years.
Franks: What I understood is that the 5 year review would be more of a process review of how
the document's working, and that we would definitely review individual expenditures on a yearly
basis when we do our CIP, annual basis when we do our CIP.
Hoffman: How it's working and are things coming up faster than you anticipated or slower than
you anticipated in each.
Happe: Okay. One more question for you in that same area, as with regard to the 10 wooded
playground structures. How great of a concern should we have and how much should we be
taking a look at trying to reallocate money if necessary to get those wooded playground structures
either up to code or replaced?
Hoffman: Really no option of bringing them up to code. It's replacement.
Happe: So replacement.
Hoffman: And in 90, during the 90's ASTM guidelines changed dramatically. Consumer Product
Safety Commission guidelines changed dramatically and we went and we paid for updates to
these wood structures so we had the manufacturer's representatives come on out and do an
analysis and they said alright, here's what we need to do to meet these current guidelines. To the
best of our ability and we paid $2,000 to $4,000 per playground to make that happen. Today
there' s nothing more you can do. There' s an element of danger and element of risk in each one of
those that I would like to see them all taken out today, but it's, I just don't think it is, well let's
imagine. Let's simply imagine that we say let's take them out and we take out Lake Ann, Lake
Susan and the other 8 neighborhood playgrounds tomorrow without a plan to replace them.
That's not going to go over... It's not going to make you look very popular. It's not going to
make the City Council look very popular, so then you ask yourself okay, well let's say we're
going to invest a half a million dollars today, so you make the recommendation to the City
Council. That may or may not fly, and it's a decision where, the problems have been there for' the
last 8 or 10 years and they've been improved upon in the last 4 to 5 years but we still have an
element of risk that we're all assuming so. I'd like to take them all out today but I've accelerated
it to 4 year. After 3 years I think if we can go farther, it's all good.
Happe: In keeping with my politically incorrect statements ROd?
Franks: Oh go right ahead.
Happe: Our commission has proposed to spend $275,000 in 2003 on a Bandimere Community
park shelter. That is certainly part of a master plan. It's something we'd all like to see eventually
put in there. But we're proposing to the City Council to spend $275,000 on that facility, while we
have 10 wooded playground structures that are under park and rec that do not meet safety
standards, and I just, I don't know if I'm the only one that has difficulty in spending money on a
new while we have potential liabilities and potential hazards on our hands.
Hoffman: It's a great question.
Franks: Yeah. I think part of how we resolve that is that we're looking at new development
versus maintenance and replacement as in a sense two separate activities. And so yeah, we need
39
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
to always be cognizant of the bottom line of what we're doing, but you know we're at a point
now where the park system is aging to such an extent that if we utilize everything for replacing
the new maintenance, we're not going to be developing anything new. And so we need to find
some way to create some balance, and a safety issue is important. What I'd like to do is really
explore some ways to eat cake and, have cake and eat it too so. That may or may not happen.
This is part of my concern about the ice rink. We're talking about spending money on something
that's kind of frosting on the cake.
Happe: An enhancement as I think.
Franks: Since we're already providing ice and we're going to provide more, when we have
children playing on wood playground equipment that's not safe in their neighborhood park. And
it's how is it, and my point about how is it that we are getting the most for the money that we
spend, the resources that we allocate. Let's move down here. Anything?
Atkins: It seems like we almost changed the subject there. I, the only thing I want to say is I
don't you know, know exactly what's going on with hiring a consultant about this and that, but it
will, and developing this park will be a new experience for me because I haven't, or helping, and
the more I can learn about that process the better.
Franks: Okay... is that a recommendation that you personally are bringing before the council?
Hoffman: Not yet. It will come before the park commission as a part of your capital plan.
Franks: When we work on that, so that's not a recommendation that we're considering today to
act on? Alright. I just wanted to clarify that. So what we're looking to do then is to act on the
Arboretum Village master plan, and also make a recommendation potentially for a consultant to
survey and prepare documents for a 20 year capital repair and maintenance plan.
Hoffman: And process, correct.
Franks: And process that, correct.
Happe: Do we need a motion on the Arboretum Village parkland acquisition master plan or not?
Franks: What I'd like to do is if, is to really look at including two separate motions on these
issues and one is, I'd like, I'm thinking about the idea of directing staff to bring back to the
commission some of the information that we talked about earlier. One is some of the
demographic information of Arboretum Village and the surrounding neighborhoods. Some idea
if we have it, of what is being considered being placed in those amenity areas. I know that was
vague initially but they're building out Arboretum Village so they might have some greater idea
about, at least what their budget's going to be and if we know their budget, we'll have some idea
about what they're planning on putting in. And an overlay of that neighborhood parks and what
we're looking at as access to this new neighborhood parks and what those amenities are as well.
And then really taking a look at that and at that point making some determination about whether
we are interested in proceeding with developing the Arboretum Village acquisition as a passive or
more active. And if active, in a sense providing some direction so when we bring the consultant
on board, we're going in a direction that we're interested in going. So Todd, would that require
being tabled or is that a motion in and of itself?. Or do we not make a motion on it today?
40
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Hoffman: That's a motion. You're not tabling the recommendation that I made, so you're
making a separate motion. And I've got it.
Franks: Is it agreeable to the commission to separate this into two separate motions?
Happe: Yes.
Spizale: Yes.
O'Shea: Yes.
Franks: Okay, then Todd's got the motion written down. Is there someone who would propose
that as a motion?
Hoffman: On the master plan.
Franks: On the master plan for Arboretum Village acquisition.
Happe: Yeah, I'll propose that motion as articulated by Rod.
Franks: Is there a second?
O'Shea: I second.
Happe moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to
prepare information on the demographic information of Arboretum Village and the
surrounding neighborhoods, what is being considered in those amenity areas, an overlay of
the neighborhood parks, and access to this new neighborhood park and what those
amenities are as well. All voted in favor and the motion carried 6 to 0.
Franks: That motion carries. The second item then is the award, put out for bid, letters out to bid
for a consulting firm to go over the repair, 20 year repair and maintenance plan for park and trail
improvements. Is there any commissioner willing to make a motion?
Hoffman: This is something the City Council is asking for so.
Happe: Yeah. I'll move that this commission recommend to the City Council that they direct
staff to prepare letters, a letter requesting a proposal from professional consulting firms to help
define and create a 20 year capital repair and maintenance plan to help us analyze and forecast
future anticipated repair and maintenance costs.
Franks: Is there a second to that motion?
Spizale: Second.
Happe moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to
City Council to direct staff to prepare a letter requesting bids from consulting firms to
define and create a 20 year capital repair and maintenance plan for the park and recreation
department. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0.
Franks: That one carries as well. This created more work for you.
41
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Hoffman: It's been a heck of a night.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS.
Franks: Alright. Moving on to commission member committee reports. Paula, and I'll just jump
in here. Paula and I are on the Community Center Task Force. Did I get that correct?
Hoffman: Focus group.
Franks: Focus, I'm sorry. I knew I wasn't going to get it right. I even brought my information. I
should have looked at it. And we did have our first meeting, the first of two meetings that are
scheduled, and they were interesting. One of the comments that I, one of the sentiments that I
just want to put to the commission about this community feeling about the community center is
the idea of creating the sense of community in the community center as opposed to just providing
a fitness facility. And I was struck, because I didn't necessarily anticipate that idea, although it's
near and dear to my heart. But it's something that people are really wanting to look for as almost
more important than having aerobic equipment, that they're really looking for a place for the
community to come together. So I'm not exactly sure how the next meeting's going to progress,
and what's going to come of it so we'll keep you up to date.
Hoffman: Receive today's e-mail?
Franks: I did not. We're having so many problems with our server.
Atkins: I had a few.
Hoffman: This is from...sent out the synopsis.
Franks: Oh I got that earlier. He said he was having trouble getting it to you, so it must have
gone through.
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: REVENUE PRODUCING FCILITIES,
COMMISSIONER HAPPE.
Franks: Commission member presentations, and it looks as if we do have a commissioner
member presentation.
Happe: I, after the joint meeting we had with the City Council, did some thinking and a brief
amount of homework on the, some ideas for alternative funding. Rod you mentioned that we'd
love to have our cake and eat it too, and one of the ways that the Park and Rec Commission could
help create a cash positive situation is by coming up with some alternative revenue generating
ideas. I'm not an expert in city finances, but I did learn that there are different ways that the City
Council has at their disposal, if we were to come up with a good idea, for a cash positive amenity.
There are different ways that the City can have that amenity built without assessing taxes to do
so. If you come up with a solid idea and a solid business plan and a solid revenue generating
proposal that the facility could be built as a public amenity, using bonds or several other means to
do so. Came up with some ideas. These ideas probably more are bad than good, but at least
they'll stimulate some conversation or some ideas. The purpose of this list is not that we select or
specifically focus on any one of these ideas, unless you guys happen to agree that one of them is
42
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
worth pursuing. The concept is just to begin the dialogue about some things that we could do as
the Park and Rec Commission.
Franks: Well let's hear your ideas.
Happe: And we won't, Rod I'll spin through them very quickly. We don't need to spend any
particular time on any one issue unless something pops out. Point 2. A few of non-traditional
revenue concepts or ideas. Sale of existing assets. Anything that we have that would be non-
essential or no longer needed in the city of Chan that the park and rec owns. An idea for dockage
on city lakes that could be auctioned off to high bidders on an annualized basis as a means of
creating revenue. An indoor golf arena. A golf dome with different amenities that could be
added into that. A municipal liquor store. Several examples of several cities operating with cash
positive municipal liquor stores, and really some interesting information out on the intemet if
that's something that anyone would want to take some additional, an additional look at including
some existing consultant proposals for other cities. Municipal golf course. I'm not sure how the
City of Chaska' s doing. I threw that out there just as an idea. A city owned indoor skating
facility, maybe in conjunction with or somehow working in tandem with the community center.
A teen club, an outdoor pool similar to the Edina pool that several of us grew up using. A non-
resident activity indoor user feeS'for the public amenities that our taxpayers have already paid for,
for outside groups coming in to use Chanhassen facilities. I'll skip the next one. Increased
-concession presence at local parks. Again without my expertise knowing as to whether 6r not
those are cash positive generating facilities or just amenities that we have. Events, special events
that we could participate and facilitate such as circuses or other things coming to town.
Amphitheater funded by future revenues from events that could be held at an amphitheater. BMX
bike park on a pay to play basis. Indoor paintball. 'Tree farm using existing land to plant for the
future per se. And the possibility of increased sponsorship of park amenities. Either from various
social organizations within Chanhassen or individuals just with an accelerated attention to the fact
that there could be opportunities for residents or community groups to help pay for in memory of
park and rec facilities. So those are just, I mean just a few ideas. As I said, maybe more bad
than good but my hope is to get some dialogue going as to some things that we could do to think
outside the box a little bit to figure out if there are ways that we can, with flattening to semi-
declining park and rec revenues coming in, that might be ways that we could help determine
some of these additional revenue generating concepts.
Franks: Well I appreciate this...and I have a proposal for you. And that is that as part of the
commission we create a committee to explore these more in depth. Todd, do we have any interns
working with the park department? We don't. Is that possible?
Hoffman: Summer time.
Franks: Well that just shoots my idea in the foot. What I was hoping is that this might be a
project for an intern to work with the committee as a staff liaison person to really assist in a
committee of commissioners. A committee of revenue generating ideas to really boil these down
to the most practical and effective ways to the top, three top five, something like that and we
could really take a look at, as a commission, and then really move forward recommending these
ideas to the council and provide some direction about how we might do that. I really think that
this is a great committee assignment and Commissioner Happe, since you've taken such
wonderful initiative, I can think of no one more aptly suited to actually lead such a committee
effort than as yourself. What I'd be interested in doing is seeing if there's two other
commissioners. Three constitute a committee.
43
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Hoffman: I don't know that to be true.
Franks: But we don't violate any kind of open meeting law by the committee meeting?
Hoffman: None.
Franks: Okay, so we can have 3.
Hoffman: Four you would.
Franks: I'm sorry.
Hoffman: Four you would.
Franks: Four we would, but 3 is okay. Alright. What I'd be interested then is if Commissioner
Happe, if you're interested in taking on, what I'm considering to be not a short term assignment.
Nothing that needs to happen immediately, but if there's two other commissioners who would be
willing to join you in that effort, I'd really like to see that happen.
Happe: I think it'd be a fun project.
Franks: Great. Are there any other, are there two commissioners who would be willing to work
with Dave in really taking a look at these things in depth?
Atkins: I can't start until after Peter Pan next March.
Hoffman: How's Peter Pan doing? Making any money.
·
Atkins: Oh, we've got ~uditions in November.
Franks: You see he's setting you up.
Atkins: For what?
Franks: You know does it make money?
Atkins: Oh we make money. If we build a theater we can make money.
O'Shea: I'd be willing to volunteer.
Franks: That's great.
Happe: Thanks Amy.
Spizale: I would too. I think it's a great idea.
Happe: Thanks Jack.
Spizale: I think you've got a nice start on the ideas. There's some fun ones and some good ones
and some bad ones.
44
Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002
Happe: Yeah there are. We'd love to have everybody just add whatever comes to mind and we'll
keep it rolling and let's go until we start to go through a committee process with narrowing some
things down.
Franks: Well seeing that there are 3, and personally I don't feel it's appropriate for as Chair to
really participate in that committee process so, on something like that so seeing that there are 3
members that are willing to form the alternative park and recreation revenue generating ideas
committee, what I'd be looking for is a formal motion to actually create that committee. Is there
a motion to that effect? So moved by someone.
Hoffman: It should be down there.
Franks: Down here, by one of you.
Kelly: Yes, I submit a motion to create an alternative park and recreation revenue generating
ideas committee.
Franks: Okay, with the nomination of.
Kelly: With the nomination of Commissioner Happe as the committee chairman.
Franks: And members.
Hoffman: O'Shea and Spizale.
Franks: O'Shea and Spizale. Is there a second to that motion?
Atkins: I second.
Franks: It's been moved and seconded that this committee be created as a part of our Park and
Recreation Commission.
Kelly moved, Atkins seconded to create an Alternative Park and Recreation Revenue
Generating Ideas Committee, consisting of Commissioner Happe as Chairman, and
Commissioners O'Shea and Spizale. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously 6 to 0.
Franks: Great, we have a new committee. Appreciate that effort and your two willingness to
participate in that as well. Wonderful. Alright. Let's move on to the Administrative Packet.
Hoffman: There is none.
Franks: There is none. Not in my grouping of papers anyway. Is there a motion to adjourn?
Kelly moved, Spizale seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting.
Ail voted in favor and the motion carried.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
45
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
NOVEMBER 26, 2002
Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Amy O' Shea, Tom Kelly, Paula Atkins, David Happe and
Jack Spizale
MEMBERS ABSENT: Glenn Stolar
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Superintendent;
PUBLIC PRESENT:
Name Phone Number
Helen Merchant
Rita Klauda
Brenda Petersmeyer
Ted J. Koltes
Brandon & Thomas MacFarlane
952-443-2492
952-934-7844
952-949-0698
952-470-8632
952-934-5175
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: As presented.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
Helen Merchant: My name is Helen Merchant and I'm Principal at Chanhassen Elementary and
we're here to talk about the vandalism that's been happening at our school over the last couple of
years. And first of all I want to say, we have been so appreciative of all the support that the city
has given to our school. We think about the city park behind the elementary, it's incredible and
the kids have really benefited from it just in the activities that they play during the school day.
The basketball, the four square, the fields for the soccer and the baseball and just so many other
activities so first of all I do want to say you know, thank you for all your support. We've really
benefited from that. We have our track and field day there where all of our families or a lot of
our families come and help celebrate the track and field day and it's just a beautiful facility for
that too. Which really teaches our kids physical fitness, the compassion for others and also really
teaches our kids collaboration. I work all year round so I get to see the kids not only at Chan
Elementary use it but I get to see other kids throughout the summer using it too and I know it's
used in the evening by all of the schools in this area and so it is truly a blessing to have that. And
the other thing I would like to do is comment on the police coverage that we've had at Chan
Elementary the last couple months especially. I think they've done a really good job to try to stop
some of the vandalism so we're here tonight you know to say thank you for one thing. For our
beautiful field and the support that you've given our school over the years. It's really made a
difference. But we think you should be aware of some of the concerns that we have over the last
couple of years. Prior to that, I've been in that building for 12 years now, very, very seldom, my
head custodian and I have talked many, many times, we'd probably have 2 or 3 phone calls to the
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
police a year. Around Halloween or something like that, but very seldom. Since the addition of
the skate park, and I'm not saying just the skate park, but sine that addition of that, we've had
much more vandalism to our building and I've Rita Klauda to come join me tonight. She's our
PTO President to talk about our concerns.
Rita Klauda: Good evening. It's a pleasure to be here. My name is Rita Klauda and I'm here
tonight as a parent of 3 children. Two that went to Chanhassen Elementary and one who's
currently still there in the 4t~ grade. I'm here as a staff member at Chanhassen Elementary, and
also as the PTO President at Chanhassen.
Franks: Rita, excuse me. Could you give us your address for the record.
Rita Klauda: Sure. Our address, my address is 8130 Marsh Drive in Chanhassen.
Franks: Thanks.
Rita Klauda: You're welcome. And I just have some pictures this evening of just a little bit of a
sampling of the vandalism that's happened probably over the last 18 months to 2 years at
Chanhassen Elementary. I've been doing lunch and recess over the last 3 years and just have
been seeing a problem getting worse and worse and worse and this year, I take the first graders
out for first lunch and so our first graders are the first ones out onto the playground during the
day, approximately noon. And every Monday, except for 3 since the beginning of the school
year, and that includes yesterday, we've found some sort of vandalism. Some sort of, to the
grounds, to our building, to the equipment, since the beginning of school. There's only been 3
Mondays where we haven't found something out there and unfortunately sometimes the first
graders have found it and not an adult. I'm not quite sure how the camera works here. Little
messages written on the swings. First graders went to swing on the swings. Mrs. Klauda. Yeah.
What does this say? We've had our building spray painted. We've had our windows broken and
our doors, which were very expensive to replace. Here's another picture of a window broken and
it's difficult to see, but there used to be a surveillance camera right here. Also a surveillance
camera on this door. Someone didn't like them. They chose to tear them down. The playground
equipment, this is difficult to see but this is one that we found last year. The equipment has been
burned. It has been cut. It has been written on. Obscenities with marker. Besides our windows
and our cameras, signs have been torn out that people have disagreed with. Torn right out of the
ground trying to set off some rules. The playground has been burned. We've found, one day a
little first grader came to Miss Stone and said Miss Stone, my basketball won't come through the
net. Miss Stone walked over, little first grader, there was a condom twisted into the net. Not
letting the ball drop through the net. I was told today by one of the other para' s, she picked up a
used condom off the playground just yesterday. Liquor bottles have been smashed against our
school. Little first graders have come up with empty cardboard containers of 24 packs, empty
beer cans. Just this year off the playground. They're picking up liquor containers. And matches
and cigarette butts and the F word, and FU and F this school messages spray painted across our
back boards of our basketball hoops. That cost us approximately $500, the school, out of the
school's capital budget, $500 to repair that. We try to repair that before the kids get out onto the
playground. That's why we try and catch it. Things have been stolen out of our building. People
have walked in our back door. VCR's have been stolen. Eggs have been thrown at our school.
Screens have been slashed. I mean it's absolutely ridiculous. Now it is my personal task to walk
around every Monday morning, I've taken this on myself because I'm absolutely exasperated
with this activity. I drop my son off at school and I walk around the building every morning,
every Monday morning looking for something so our children don't have to see it, so I can run in
and tell our custodian, hurry up and get out there before the kids see it, because I don't think that
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
delivers the right kind of message to our children who are supposed to feel safe in their school.
Actually Brenda Petersmeyer, our Assistant Principal now has something that she's like to say
and I'll be back.
Happe: Todd, could we pass those pictures around?
Brenda Petersmeyer: My name is Brenda Petersmeyer. I am the Administrative Assistant over at
the elementary school. I want to share just a couple things with you. Since, I have a police report
here between July 14th and November 14th, which is 4 months, we've had 14 phone calls to the
police, and that is just in that 4 month period of time. Tennis court net is on fire. Property has
been stolen. Vandalism to school. We've had vandalism to windows. Theft of bicycle. Theft of
bicycle. Stolen bike. That's 3 bikes in a row. Bicycle has been thrown through the door. Two
juveniles breaking branches off our newly planted trees, which the PTO purchased for when we
had our September 11th ceremony. Black permanent marker writing on basketball back boards,
total damage $500. Again, what Rita had talked about. Five juveniles out in the parking lot.
Those kids are out there. It's not just skate park kids. We have kids out there during the end of
the school day when our kids are trying to get on the bus. I have seen kids out there playing
football in the parking lot when parents are trying to pick their kids up. They're smoking. I have
safety patrols who are reporting to me daily that there are kids out there, sexual activity that's
going on. They're absolutely grossed out by this. The smoking in the parking lot. We had
people that were picked up for possession of drugs and marijuana. We truly believe that there is
drug activity going on at our school in the area. My biggest concern I guess right now is that we
have kids out there on the playground and it's becoming a huge safety issue. A few weeks ago,
or a week ago or so, we have fourth grade girls who were approached by kids from the skate park.
It was 12:30 in the afternoon. They had commented to them that they were skipping school.
They were sworn at. They were sexually harassed and this is in the middle of the afternoon.
They have behaviors going on that are smoking. They're, my concern is what's it going to take
before something is done. Does a child have to be stolen? Does a child have to be hurt? I was
called immediately by the paraprofessionals. Their job is to watch the kids out' there, not babysit
the skate park. And stand in front of that skate park, I can't tell you every single day when I walk
out there and check out, if I check out if there's something going on on the playground, how
many kids are at the skate park in the middle of the afternoon. My question is, where are you
supposed to be? You know these are middle school kids. If they're skipping school, that's their
business but they're harassing our kids. And it's getting to the point where it's a safety issue
because I'm concerned for our children and I don't know what can be done in terms of truancy,
but we're concerned about can we possibly shut that gate that goes right to our playground for
those kids who are out there? It's a 2 V2 hour period, 3 hour period during the day. Our kids
don't need to go through that. Our parents don't need to feel that our kids are not safe at school.
We have 2 para's out there, sometimes 3 and their job is to watch the kids on the playground and
not make sure that the skate park kids are harassing them. Not harassing them. Okay. Rita's
going to continue.
Rita Klauda: I'd like to dove tail on Brenda's request. I personally, as a staff member who's out
on that playground every day, would like to see that gate closed permanently. The only
difference between what's inside the gate and what's outside the gate is a chain link fence.
There's a perfectly paved path between the ice rink and the skate park for people to walk. I mean
I don't see an inconvenience factor there. We have children who's balls roll off the playground
and into the skate park and the children are you know verbally abused by the people in the middle
of the day who are at the skate park. They just run to get their, to retrieve their ball and they're,
you know and they're taken to task and foul language is used and they come back. They
shouldn't have to tolerate that. I just, I can't see why it just can't be shut. It's I think the safety
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
for our children far outweighs the inconvenience it might cause someone trying to get into the
park. They ought to just go down and just walk around. I don't understand why that's open.
Maybe there's a reason that I don't know of but I just don't understand that. And also I think
these people somehow or other in the evening particular, the people who are particularly camping
out in the north parking lot, I think something needs to be done about those people. It's the
people, the person who was arrested for possession of drug paraphernalia and marijuana, that's
the same person who at 8:30 in the evening chased me from the parking lot. I drove through the
parking lot just to check out to see what was going on because I kept seeing the same vehicles
there, and I though this isn't right. Something's going on. I drove through there. I stopped. I
looked around. I had my daughter in the van with me. We decided to drive out and all of a
sudden, the person, because I know the license number, came at a very high rate of speed, flying
out of the parking lot after me. Followed me very, very, very closely. I tried to remain calm
because my daughter was in the van. She was scared to death. Mommy, what's happening? And
he backed off but he followed us down to the stop lights, turned, still followed us, and by the
Country Suites I was going to turn left because that's not the direction of my house and I didn't
want him to follow me there. Got up in the lane beside us. Parked. Reved his engine. Out of the
corner of my eye I could see he was looking at me trying to intimidate me. It was 8:30 in the
evening. Why can't I drive through the parking lot at the elementary school? Because they
didn't want me there. Because they were up to no good and they wanted me to go away. And so
as a parent that says, it's not even safe for me to be there, let alone my kids. In September, after I
started seeing all this thing, my daughter loves, my 7t~ grade daughter loves to play tennis. I
won't let her ride her bike up here to play tennis. I don't know who's in that parking lot. I don't
think it's safe, and that's sad. She went to school there. She loves that school. Why can't she
ride her bike up and play tennis at 5:30 in the afternoon? She should be able to, but I don't think
it's safe. I won't let her. And my son was on the playground when those kids came off the skate
park and started harassing the girls. I don't like the thought of that. And I know for a fact that I
heard obscene language from those people coming from the skate park. I've had kids tell me that
they hear all kinds of terrible things over there. They're at recess and they overhear these things
during the day. And we've also had parents call the school saying that when they drive through
the parking lot to pick up the kids, they have seen suspicious activity. They have things, seen
things that leave them with the impression, and this is their personal feeling, that they've
expressed to Helen and to Brenda and to myself, that they feel that drugs are being sold in that
north parking lot. That's their personal impression but they say what is going on over there and
that's really scary, as a parent. As a staff member. And it just really scares me because our kids
should be safe.
Helen Merchant: I think what's really, you know kind of scary about this is that these aren't
things that we're just hearing about. I mean the police report does support that there has been
some drug possession over there. Marijuana or whatever. Even if it's one or two kids, what else
is happening there and that's my concern. And so I'm just, I guess we're just asking for your
assistance in any way possible to try to address the vandalism that is happening. With the
increase we are worried about it. We can keep an eye on the kids during the day. They're going
to be safe with our care, but we can't protect them from the verbal, you know things, comments
that come back off the skate park. Most the kids at the skate park I think do a really nice job, but
there are enough of them that we do have some concerns. And so I'm not sure what the answer
is. I did meet with the police department a couple of months ago. I met with Todd several times.
I know they're trying but I just feel like you know, Officer Dave Potts has been wonderful. I
think the last two months he's had tons of coverage over there and I really think the police have
done a good job of clearing out that parking lot quite a bit compared to what it was. So I'm
asking for the continued support from the police department, but I'm also asking about a barrier
between the skate park and the school to eliminate those harassment issues. I don't know if that
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
gate's going to be enough. I don't know if we need to put up a wood fence there between and it's
primarily during the recess time when the kids are at recess. That's 2 V2 hours a day. So that's
one of the things that we're looking at, asking if that's a possibility. At the minimum being able
to lock that gate and keep the kids, balls from going in there. But I really think that would help
eliminate some of the playground issues. Also the playground equipment has been vandalized.
The cost to maintain and repair this equipment, I have the invoice is $5,198, and that's not just for
the repairs to the vandalism. That's to kind of maintain it too. We were, I did contact the city.
They weren't able to support us as far as sharing the cost of the repairs. But during the past few
years, I've been here 12 years, the city and the PTO have worked together to build that
playground and it's not just used by Chan Elementary kids. It's used by a lot of other kids too.
And I think the PTO paid I think $19,000. The City I think paid 19 wasn't it Todd? Do you
remember how much for that last playground phase?
Hoffman: I don't recall but it was a split, yeah.
Helen Merchant: Right, and so we've had the support of the city with the playground and we
really appreciate that and with the vandalism, these things, costs are increasing and I know the
city's on a tight budget and we are too. I think that's why again we ask for your support in any
way that you can. Another thing I just mentioned, We had a port-a-potty over in that area of the
parking lot. I think that was an attraction to the kids that were having some social time over there
so if we can get that moved too, but I think more so than anything else is, you know having the
police coverage. I don't know if it's a surveillance camera. I don't know if it's, what the answer
is, we're asking your help but what we want to do is just make you aware of what's going on over
there and sure it's not the building being burnt down or you know bomb threats or anything like
that, but it's a lot of nickel and diming and I think nickel and diming does add up and it takes
resources away from the city. It takes resources away from our school. It takes resources away
from our PTO and that makes it hard too so again we don't know what the answers are. The
reason we came tonight is just to express our concern and to ask if you could help any way. I will
leave the police report that I received from Officer Potts today. I will leave a report of some of
the things that we shared tonight. We will drop off the rest of the pictures. I have more pictures
back at the school. I will also leave an invoice as far as the playground equipment, and again it's
up to the park board and the city to decide how much they're going to help us here, if they are.
We just want to let you know that we'll appreciate anything that you can do for us. Thank you
for letting us speak today.
Franks: Thank you.
Helen Merchant: The other thing I just wanted to mention too is, I talked to one of the people
from Flanagan, and we are going to have to replace our playground within the next 5 to 10 years
and, because of safety issues and again this is not just for Chan Elementary. This is for the
children that use that park in the summer time and I don't know if we'll have the support as far as
splitting that cost again but I know the PTO would be very supportive of that, as they have been
in the past, of looking into that for sure too. Okay, any questions?
Franks: Well let's open it up. If you want to stay at the podium.
Helen Merchant: Sure.
Franks: And if it's okay with the other people, is there anyone else wishing to speak on this
matter first of all? Okay. We'll open it up then for some questions and if any of the
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
commissioners, any of the questions directed to the other two have spoken, if you'd be willing to
come up.
Spizale: I guess one question, what was the sheriff's solution? Did he have any?
Helen Merchant: Well he said, you know that he would make sure that they did come to the
building quite a few more times. They were trying to do that. We did talk about, for a while,
chaining off that part of the parking lot, but then the police can't get over in that area, so that was
another issue so we've tried to brainstorm some suggestions. I think the most help has been the
increase in coverage by the police department. But I just don't know what else we can
recommend at this point. Oh yeah, we did install lights and Paul, Paul Sleutter is our building
and grounds person. Do you want to say something about the lights?
Paul Sleutter: Well I'll just mention that we do have a part of our capital budgeting process this
year was to add additional lighting on the, it used to be the west side of the building, which we've
done. Kind of a first phase of that now determining if it's adequate or if we need to add
additional lighting which we will do if we need to do so.
Spizale: Yeah, and one other question too. I think in that police report there was a couple
citations given to a couple people, or at least one person I noticed. Was that person using the
skate park or was he' from somewhere else, or didn't we know?
Helen Merchant: See we just don't know. We don't know on that one.
Spizale: Okay. That's all I have.
Helen Merchant: I see, you know the skate park as really a problem at lunch time the most. I
think there's other things going on in that park area that I think right now as far as the kids being
you know verbally harassed in some way, it's primarily the skate park because that's where our
kids play on the equipment over in that area.
Spizale: Okay.
Franks: Commissioner Happe.
Happe: One of the things that we saw in some of the pictures was some damage to surveillance
cameras. Is there a surveillance system at the school right now?
Helen Merchant: No. What I did is, I met with one of the, oh we had a system put in our
building to make sure that it was safe and I said is there something that we can do, because I said
the vandalism you know is pretty bad, especially having two doors kicked in in the back of the
building there. We were, it was just a matter of time we felt before something else was, where
they'd get into the building or something, and he suggested that why don't we put in surveillance
cameras that were fake as a trial. And I think what we did, one of the things that made it not
work for us is that we put them pretty low. And again it was an experiment, so I think we learned
from that. If we do put in a surveillance camera again, we're going to have to put it at a higher
point and maybe this was just a regular camera, whereas a surveillance camera, a lot of the nicer
ones are pretty hard to break, you know for the most part, so with the new lighting I think it
would be much more effective too. But that's one of the things I think would possibly make a
difference, but again I think you know, we had to just give it a shot and see what we could do and
at that point I wasn't willing to put out a lot of money because our capital budget wasn't that
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
strong, or that, or I should say resourceful. And so we decided to go and just give it a shot. But
again, I did talk to Dave Potts this afternoon about the surveillance cameras and they're, Roger
Roach has met with me too. He's one of the officers from the police department. I met with him
last year about this and he did even put in a small camera down in that one comer, but at that time
the lighting was pretty poor, but I think we've got some factors in place that may make a
difference in a surveillance camera situation now that we didn't have back even a year ago with
the new lighting and that would make a difference.
Happe: I just wonder had the surveillance system, maybe even with some signing to indicate
there's a surveillance system present would be a great vandalism deterrent. Can I direct a
question to staff at this time too, or just?
Franks: Let's work through questions for our visitors that have presented and then we can.
Happe: As far as one of the issues that was mentioned with regard to some truancy, is that
something that the school district can work within? I mean I'm assuming that there's a truant
officer or something that would be notified to curtail that problem.
Helen Merchant: Right. If we, we're finding not all the kids are from the Chaska school district.
The person that was arrested I think is, well I know is from a different city. With the marijuana
but I really think we do address it when we know that the kids are in the Chaska school district
but it's hard to tell you know what district these kids are from. The skate park does attract kids
from other communities too. So our district does keep track of truancy though and does, you
know if there's a child out there that went to Chan Elementary and I see them out there, you can
be sure I'm going to be calling the middle school to have them deal with that, but again we have
so many kids out there that we just don't recognize.
Happe: Okay. That's all the questions I have. I have a few for staff that I'll save for later.
Franks: Okay. Commissioner O'Shea.
O'Shea: I have one question Helen, regarding vandalism. You mentioned the amount of money.
Are you, compared to all the other schools in your district, is your school the highest in
vandalism, the amount?
Helen Merchant: I haven't checked that out to see.
O'Shea: Because I'm just trying to correlate you know, is this an isolated significant amount
caused by.
Helen Merchant: Right. Paul, do you know that?
Paul Sleutter: Yeah, I could answer that question and yes, percentage wise Chanhassen
Elementary probably incurs the largest cost of vandalism correction of any of our schools. With
the exception of probably the high school. The high school because of the physical size of that
building. You know dollar for dollar it's more but percentage wise it's probably equal to
Chanhassen Elementary. Or the high school in the district.
Helen Merchant: You take that door, how much was that door to replace that glass, do you
remember?
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Paul Sleutter: Generally a couple hundred dollars at least a time depending on the...
Helen Merchant: Right, and I even gave up on glass. I know I'll put the steel panels in, in the
back because we've had a couple, one of the doors kicked in twice and another one kicked in and
rather than put the glass there, I thought well let's try the steel.
O'Shea: Thanks. That's my only question.
Kelly: I just want to follow up that question. Would it be true that Chan Elementary School was
not among the highest in the pre...
Paul Sleutter: ...District 112 only for about 3 V2 years so I'm not familiar with the experience
prior to that, but I can say in the last 3 ~A years, probably the last 2 years has been, I've noticed a
significant increase at Chan Elementary than prior to...
Atkins: I know that usage in the summer must be a lot higher. Is there a lot of vandalism
occurring during the summer months?
Helen Merchant: Yes there is. It's, right now, the last 2 years, the winter has been pretty good
when the skate park has been closed. It's been real good but in the spring, summer and fall, that's
when we've been having.
Atkins: Summer's there's...would be considerably more in the summer.
Helen Merchant: Right.
Atkins: And I understand that there are cars and kids in the parking lots during school hours. Is
that what I understood you to say?
Helen Merchant: Right.
Atkins: And the police come by and patrol occasionally and kick them out?
Helen Merchant: They do. We call them when we see the kids out there.
Atkins: And that's the north side of the school, the big parking lot by the tennis courts.
Helen Merchant: Right, the north parking lot.
Atkins: Which is a considerable distance from the skate park.
Helen Merchant: Right. And we see them, you know if it's, if they're just talking or something
I'm not going to call the police but when they're doing more of the harassment type things, or
you know playing games out there or something that we will contact the police just because we
want it to be a safe place. But we have had what, 3 bikes stolen in the past year. I think
something like that, or year and a half. That was, I never had that problem prior to this.
Atkins: During school hours.
Helen Merchant: During school hours.
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Brenda Petersmeyer: I have asked people, I've been out there during the recess hours too and
there were 2 or 3 times just this past fall, there were people who had ridden there and parked
where we have vehicles come in and drop things off, whether it be milk products or whatever the
case may be, and I've asked them to move their cars because they're not supposed to be parking
in our school parking lot during school hours and I've been verbally harassed by these people.
Franks: In the south end lot?
Brenda Petersmeyer: Yes, tight by the skate park.
Rita Klauda: We had a sign that said no skateboard parking, but it was tipped out.
Brenda Petersmeyer: ...on the sidewalks also...
Atkins: ! just have one more question. Have you approached the city staff about closing the
gate?
Helen Merchant: Yes I did and was told no.
Atkins: That's all for me.
Franks: Okay, anything else? Okay, well we thank you for coming.
Helen Merchant: Thank you.
Rita Klauda: Thank you very much.
Helen Merchant: We appreciate your support and if you have any other questions, feel free to
call us.
Franks: Well I think what we'll be doing is we might have some comments for staff, and we may
request that staff look into it a little bit more and prepare some alternatives for us, which we can
actually take a look at and possibly implement, or not I guess at our next meeting. Todd, is that
considering the agenda items coming up, is that something we could work on? Have ready for
our next meeting.
Hoffman: Next meeting is just two weeks away so depending on the time, but winter's upon us
so we have plenty of time.
Franks: We have plenty of time to think about it. I guess my feeling too is not to, since we are
running up on the winter season, is to really take some time to consider what would be some
effective interventions and solutions instead of rushing into something and then just experiencing
more frustration that here is another failed attempt that maybe incurred some costs and we might
have, those resources we might have used more effectively some other places so we'll make sure
that as we continue this, that we will involve the school as partners in developing whatever
solutions we think will work.
Helen Merchant: Okay, thank you Rod. Thank you all of you. We really appreciate your
listening to us and any support that's for sure.
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Franks: I'm going to ask you to hang around while we grill staff on the subject so, to make sum
you have that information as well. So let's bring this back and we'll allow commission members
to ask some questions of staff, if you have them, and make any comments also. We'll start down
at this end. Paula, do you want to lead off.
Atkins: Is the skate park actually opened year round or is it closed for a number of months?
Hoffman: Closed once the snow and ice closes it and then it's opened once the snow and ice is
cleared and the pavement is dry.
Atkins: Are there set hours?
Hoffman: 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m., same as all park hours.
Atkins: And the gates are locked?
Hoffman: Gates are not locked.
Atkins: Never locked.
Hoffman: The gates are locked during the winter.
Atkins: Okay, that's all.
Kelly: Is the reason for the second opening more by the school primarily for emergency
vehicles?
Hoffman: Two reasons. Access. General access. Any time you have a facility where you have
it gated or a fenced interior, you want two accesses to it so we have the one on the south and the
one on the north. When ambulances or emergency vehicles do respond and take the trail just
outside of the fire station and drive into the skate park to respond to emergencies, so that's the
emergency access. The access from the south is the stairway or the foot access. The fence was
never originally installed on part of the plans but when the skate park opened the parking started
to spread around the entire perimeter, in the fire department parking lot, the school parking lot
and so we started with that fencing project, and that curtailed that problem at least to a great
extent. I've not heard another parking complaint, at least in quite some time.
Kelly: And the reason that the other gate is closed is to discourage parking at the fire station?
Hoffman: There's a gate at the driveway access into the fire hall. If we opened that up, then they
have very convenient parking that they'll park at the fire station and then walk through that
location. That gate is opened up in the winter for maintenance and it's just there for general
maintenance operations.
Kelly: My only thought is a trade-off. You know is it, what's mom important, closing the access
to the playground or limiting parking access at the fire house, and I don't know what. I mean I
know what my knee jerk reaction is, and I'm going to have a child them next fall but, I just
wanted to let everyone aware that them is another gate there that can be used as a second entrance
but them are parking implications about opening that gate. I just wanted to throw that out them.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Franks: Is it necessary to have both openings as emergency, or is it just, that's just standard
design or is it an ordinance or a code or requested emergency vehicle or the fire department that
we have two emergency entrances to an enclosed area like that.
Hoffman: Well the south entrance they can't get a vehicle onto the site. Whereas the other two
entrances they could.
Franks: Okay. And the one question I wasn't quite clear about, and I don't know if there's any
information from the sheriff' s department as well but, I was also thinking that the vandalism you
would think would most likely increase when the use of the skate park is at it's highest, which is
during the summer with the extended daylight hours and the kids not in school. So I don't know
if there's any hard information that we have to indicate that that's actually what is happening.
Hoffman: The data that you have there tells the dates of the calls that were made. And when you
talk to the kids that are at the skate park, they'll say that the kids that are hanging onto the north
lot are not associated with the skate park, and I believe there was some retaliatory vandalism from
when the cops started pushing those kids out of that north lot, and they retaliated with at least one
incident of vandalism so, are they associated or not? I don't know, but there is certainly
increased activity at that entire location since the skate park has been put in. And increased
activity leads to some increased incidents of vandalism and problems.
Helen Merchant: Can I just mention too that I haven't turned in all of the vandalism...see the
police reports but there have been many, many times when we've had like a screen ripped or a,
you know the little things that I haven't turned in. So when you look at that police reports, it's
kind of...over the past 2 years...
Franks: Have we seen continuing vandalism at the Herman Field Park as well?
Hoffman: This year was pretty good at Herman Field. Lake Ann is our highest incident of
vandalism in the city park system. Lake Susan. We see vandalism in the entire park system.
Franks: When I was looking at those pictures, it's not the only playground equipment where we
see those on a fairly regular basis. Not to diminish but it is something that we have to deal with
system wide. There aren't hundreds of little children present often when this kind of stuff occurs
though at some of the neighborhood parks, but what's happening at Chan Elementary on the
playground there is not unique in any way to what we have to deal with and it's interesting, I was
listening to you saying the last 2 years. It's really kind of bumped up and we have this activity
going on in the north parking lot and I was just wondering, have we had a little transfer of activity
from a park like the Herman Field Park and we've now found a new place. You know there
could be all kinds of trends that could be happening here and addressing the skaters might not just
be the only answer dealing with it.
Helen Merchant: ...multiple, multiple sources of this.
Franks: Okay. If we were to lock that gate as been suggested, like how would the lock be
handled? I know that you talked about doing it for those couple hours during the day. Would
that?
Hoffman: We would just have to change out the lock. It's a standard lock for all city padlocks at
this time so we would change it to an individual lock that then the school have the keys to.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Franks: The keys, okay. Thanks, that's all I had.
O'Shea: I don't have a question. Mine is just a comment of, because we see problems with
language in the summer and issues at the skate park, that, the problem is bigger than locking the
gate that I think taking this winter and really coming up with some solutions to solve the school's
problem as well as the skate park issues with vandalism, harassment and those other issues that, if
we do take this time we really should come up with something that's going to resolve it for all the
areas so I think that's a good suggestion. That we should try to make that our goal, because I
think locking the gate will help but I think the big things that I'm concerned with are the
harassment issues, the safety issues and the vandalism too. But that's my comment. I don't have
any other questions.
Happe: Why does the school pay for damage to the park? If it's a joint partnership between park
system and the school. Is the school bearing all the responsibility for the vandalism that happens?
Hoffman: There's an unwritten agreement at Chan Elementary, there's a written agreement Bluff
Creek Elementary, and basically the agreement, joint partnership or the agreement at Chan
Elementary goes back into the 70's, the beginning of the school, and it was on capital projects
we'll do a 50% cost share and that started back with the original improvements. The tennis courts
and the ballfields and those type of things. Over probably the past 10 or 15 years, when
improvement ideas have come up and the city has approached the school district, the school
district for at least the couple of occurrences has not had the resources to partner with that 50%
cost share. And so the park staff has gone ahead working with the commission and the City
Council and sponsored at least the last 2 projects wholly with city resources. And so that puts us
as a city about $600,000 ahead of recent investments at the school district. And the district has
continued to request that the city partner or pay for or work on a variety of things at the building
or at the school grounds, and my response to that is until we see some equity in that balance
sheet, I can't with good management offer up additional resources from the city. The playground
that you see there, the equipment which is green and tan was purchased 50/50 from the teachers,
or the parent association and the city. The multi-colored, primary colored, yellow, blue, that was
acquired on a grant by the city. Installed originally on the north side of the school and then
moved at the request of the school, with city resources and city personnel to it's present location.
That's the playground that Helen talked about needs to be replaced at some point in the future.
The basketball courts and the back boards that we're talking about, those were all installed before
and painted by the city, so to come back and ask that the city again start paying for additional
improvements and repairs, I just don't believe that the city's in a position to do that until there's
some equity in that balance sheet.
Happe: I agree with taking this on as a project for the commission, because hopefully we can
figure out some ways to help. In the short term however, and when we come back to talk about
this next month I hope that we'll take a look at taking at least a simple recommendation from our
Principal and from our PTO President, that if there is a bridge solution or a short term solution
that may help keep kids out of trouble's way by closing the gate, we should at least take a
preliminary measure to listen to what they're saying, especially if there's another access. I'm
more concerned about the safety of the kids I guess than I am about the parking issue. I think in
the parking lot, it sounds like that may be a little out of the scope of, well we could do that. Todd,
is that more of a law enforcement issue than it would be anything that would be germane to this
Park and Rec Commission?
Hoffman: It's district property. It's really not an area that you would actively manage as a city
body or governmental organization.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Happe: Okay. So I guess my comments would be, I'd love to see us take a hard look at closing
that gate until we come up with a better solution. And opening up another gate that would allow
the emergency vehicle access. I'd love to see us take a look at the potential in some sort of
parmership or at least reviewing with the school the potential to enhance or create a surveillance
system that may greatly curtail the vandalism. I'd love to make sure that they know that we want
to continue to pursue a partnership with them for the long haul for the replacement of this
equipment, and I want to take steps that we can take, whatever those steps are that the
commission concludes to make sure that they know that they continue to have a willing partner
with us as we both take a look at the 5 to 10 years down the road and the need to replace this
equipment. And lastly there was a request that was in one of the documents that I saw passed for
another quick, easy, short term solution that may have a little bit of an impact and that's in the
relocation of a port-a-potty so that's an issue that I'd like at least looked at as part of their request
and something that may be simple for us to do. So those are my comments. ·
Spizale: Well, and I've got to bring up maybe a diagram of the way that fence goes is going to
help. I'm not quite sure that I've got it pictured exactly in my mind where those gates are, so
maybe when we do have this other meeting, a detailed diagram would help. And that's all I've
got.
Franks: And along with that diagram Todd, the preferred locations or relocation of the port-a-
potty. The other thing that I'd request is that prior to that meeting that somehow, and we'll allow
it to your creativity, some notification be made at the skate park to the skaters there in case
there's some interest of wanting to come be a part of the dialogue as well. I know that in the past
we've had some participation from the people that are involved at the skate park so I don't know
if it's possible that we could actually do that or post or go out there one day and hand, I don't
know how.
Hoffman: It'd be closed.
Franks: Yeah, it will be closed by then won't it.
Atkins: I had, just my neighbor boy was just here with his dad. They left. Obviously they had
some place to go but I'm sure he'd be interested in giving some input, if you want it from kids.
Franks: If at all possible I'd like to find some way to include the users of that facility in at least
being a part of designing any solution. As much as they would be willing to participate so if we
could find some creative way to involve them as stakeholders, we'd certainly like to hear about
that too so, Jerry put your thinking cap on. Great. And you have the contact person for notifying
if it makes it on our agenda for December at the school?
Hoffman: Yes. I'm at the school almost daily.
Franks: And I do want to say that I was there for pizza on Monday and we did have...change.
Not happy. I got the chicken nuggets because I was told to avoid the other menu choice. The
wisdom of an 8 year old.
Helen Merchant: I just want to mention too, over the years I've worked with Todd and he has
been very supportive of...just part of the problem. We realize that our parking lot may not be
related to that, but I know...
Franks: Great. Thank you. Thanks for coming.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: O'Shea moved, Spizale seconded to approve the Park and
Recreation Commission Minutes dated October 22, 2002 as presented. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0.
ESTABLISHMENT OF THE 2002 PICNIC RESERVATION FEES.
Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks, rest of the commission. On an annual basis the fee
structure, fee schedule is brought up to the commission to approve for the next year. What I'm
requesting at this time is for the commission to review the 2003 picnic fees for Lake, three
locations at Lake Ann, one at Lake Susan. As you can see, we had roughly about 100 reservations
this year totally about $9,500 in revenue. That is up slightly from last year's total. What I would
like to do is keep those fees the same as what they have been, feeling again that we are on the
higher side for fees in relationship to our surrounding communities. So it's staff recommendation
that the Park and Rec Commission recommend approval of the attached fees in 2003.
Franks: Thank you Jerry. I'll just start out with the question, when was the last time, I can't
remember but I should remember, but when was the last time the reservation fees were increased?
Ruegemer: Approximately 3 years ago.
Franks: And have you received actual feedback from groups making reservations about the fees
being high?
Ruegemer: Yes.
Franks: And what's the type of feedback that you get?
Hoffman: You've seen it in the packet I think we have those.
Ruegemer: Yeah, a lot of the evaluations.
Franks: Well the evaluations, when I look at the administrative packet they all look pretty
positive.
Ruegemer: Well if you look at, they're positive but if you look at the numbering system, when
the specific question asked are you satisfied with the fee, a lot of times they're not l's. They're
3's and 4's, with being dissatisfied. A lot of people are kind of middle of the road or thinking
they're a little bit too high and I take a lot of picnic phone calls throughout the course of the year
and for a non-resident business coming in, it's $280 at Lake Ann. A lot of the companies absorb
that but there are some that I hear, and even residents that come in. You want to book a
graduation down at Lake Ann or Lake Susan, you know it's $100 fee approximately for that.
And there is still some belief that the parks should be free. You come down and use it, there
shouldn't be any picnic fees but that's what we're trying to, we certainly take in decent revenue
on those. My thought or my worry is if we raise it too high, that we'll start to drop off in
attendance.
Franks: And that would be my concern too. Always my concern. But what I'm looking at here
in your report is that actually the reservations were up. So I'm just.
Ruegemer: From 90 something, the year before. Approximately.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Franks: I guess I'm wondering, and I don't know if it exists, if there's some kind of analysis
other than just antidotal evidence about where we've come to that price point of where we are
maximizing profit. You might not be having as many reservations as we might get, but we're
actually making the most amount of money. So I.
Hoffman: Sad to say but we tend not to be that sophisticated in much of our pricing. As an
organization. And I'm not sure that that's going to change.
Franks: See I know like on me, just because the business I'm in, when I look at those rating
scales right, and you've rated l's and 2's, the goods for all the things, you're looking for that one
thing because you're wanting to maintain some sense of balance and of course when it gets to the
money, everybody's going to feel, if they paid a dollar, since they think parks should be free,
they've paid too much. You know, and so that's going to be the one thing you're going to mark
low if you're going to mark something low.
Hoffman: In comparison to other organizations.
Ruegemer: Well for example I don't think there's any reservation in Chaska that's over $30-$40.
Franks: And what are their number of res, do you have any idea of what's happening there?
Ruegemer: I couldn't comment to that tonight.
Hoffman: The Three Rivers Park District.
Ruegemer: Quite a bit lower I think than that. Quite a bit lower. Eden Prairie is not as high as
we are either.
Franks: That's all I have. Jack.
Spizale: Is there any extra work when they have these events for city employees?
Ruegemer: Certainly. I mean starting with the reservation process over the phone. We do all
that over the phone. There's time that goes into updating the menu signs at each location. On the
weekends, both Saturdays and Sundays we do have park maintenance staff. I mean well, not just
Saturdays and Sundays, 7 days a week, they're cleaned. Garbage emptied, power washed, a lot of
those type of things. Picked up before the picnic people get there so, there's quite a bit of effort
to make sure that those are in proper order for the reserving groups.
Spizale: Is them extra work afterwards too? After they're done. Does it have to be.
Ruegemer: You know that's, you know I don't know about extra work but the next day it's
cleaned again. A lot of the groups are pretty good at making sure the garbage is in the garbage
receptacles and a lot of those type of things, and it's generally picked up. We do charge a $200
damage deposit, just in case, and that typically is enough of a scare factor that the locations are
picked up.
Spizale: Okay, that's all I have.
Happe: What's the split approximately between resident and non-resident in reservations?
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Ruegemer: Probably the highest group is probably, I'm guessing probably the business. There's
a lot of non-resident businesses that come in. A lot from Edina, Bloomington, Eden Prairie. You
know I don't have a split or a hard percentage for you tonight, but we do do a lot of graduation
parties, weddings, birthday parties, and a lot of those type, a lot of family events, reunions.
Happe: We're talking about only $9,500 in revenue so the dollars, they're important dollars but
we're probably not likely to make a huge dent in the total, overall revenue but I guess if there was
a place to raise it up, I might take a look at raising it up amongst the non-resident user fees. So
that's the only comment I have.
O'Shea: Jerry, getting back to Jack's, are you covering your variable costs that are associated
with the extra work to clean these up?
Ruegemer: Well we have seasonal park maintenance workers clean those. A lower hourly rate
than normal staff so we're not paying full time staff for the most part overtime to clean those. We
have seasonal kids coming in and doing that.
Hoffman: We're making money.
O'Shea: You're making money. You know I also like setting prices with quantifiable data
because you don't want to leave money out there that you can, there is always, you know there is
a break even point of where people will not, not break even but there's a place where you'll start
losing business if you raise it too high and naturally, it'd be interesting to...companies are willing
to pay us. Out there. Would that?
Ruegemer: Systematically, is that fair practice?
O'Shea: Well if you're not going to quantify it, if you're not going to go and do research of
calling people to find out, you know what range are you willing to pay for this type of service
and, because there's always a range that people will say, well you know I won't go up that high,
but I could pay you know $20 more. So if that's not possible for the city to do, yeah it is.
Because if you really feel.
Ruegemer: There's still a lot of the residents that call up with the family reunion or a graduation
party that are very surprised that we have fees.
O'Shea: Yeah, but I'm looking more at the majority of our rentals are the business, right? I was
thinking more on that street. When I look at this, boy I don't know where else you can rent
something, that seems pretty reasonable to me. The prices that are on there. But that's one way
to do your study, your cost study without incurring a lot of expense by having someone call and
really collect data by calling individual people that book.
Happe: I guess I'm leery of trying to find the highest level of threshold of pain that a taxpayer
will pay to use one of these facilities.
O'Shea: Yeah, and I'm not necessarily saying to go to the high end but in the range. The range
that someone might be willing to pay, which we don't even know, we're guessing. Their range
might be you know 140 or 180. So we're not even in.
Ruegemer: I guess we're trying to gauge that comfort zone is by our neighboring communities.
You know again like Chaska's is well below us on resident and non-resident fees.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Franks: As well they should be for those facilities.
O'Shea: Yeah, are they comparable facilities? Comparable?
Ruegemer: I mean, well Eden Prairie's probably more comparable to what we have with Lake
Riley and some of those. They are I believe also lower.
Hoffman: We have no objection to raising them so, that's not a problem.
Franks: Go ahead and finish up.
O'Shea: No, I just would not like to see a fee stay at something where you could really elevate it
without making anybody, losing business and keep growing. That would be my only concern.
Setting a price with some knowledge of knowing what the market would bear, but again not
going to the high end but certainly being competitive in this area that they're willing to pay.
Hoffman: Well we are at the high end already.
O'Shea: Well.
Hoffman: Of the prices in the area.
O'Shea: In the area but maybe not the people that are renting from you. You know if that's the
case, if you're already at the high end and they're still coming to you, you know unless these
other, because I think too, I remember correctly, you're rented out most of the summer, the peak
times aren't you?
Ruegemer: Many times we are on both Saturdays and Sundays at the covered pavilions.
O'Shea: So you're really not, you don't have any more room to rent in the peak, right? You're
happy with the rental as it is?
Ruegemer: It could always, I mean it's not booked every, but for the most part it is, but the non-
covered areas are pretty non-existent.
O'Shea: Okay, so you're not feeling you're losing much business right now because of the
prices?
Ruegemer: You know I think to a certain degree that may be true in some cases. Once people
get the prices they choose to maybe go somewhere else.
O'Shea: The businesses do.
Ruegemer: Business or residents or whoever. People that just shop around for price.
Franks: But I guess what, if I can jump in. Amy's maybe suggesting that weekend's going to
book up anyway. Maybe somebody might walk but somebody else is going to take it. It sounds
like most of those Saturdays and Sundays are booked at the covered pavilions.
O'Shea: At the higher rate than your neighboring communities. So so far, what I'm getting at is
so far it doesn't seem to have deterred too much of your business even though you're higher, so
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
they must think that Chanhassen has some pretty nice facilities that they're willing to pay more
than they do in Eden Prairie, which is a compliment to the city that we don't know, we're
guessing that, where is that level that they're willing to pay for these amenities.
Franks: So it might be at the, if I can jump in. It might be at our range, as the city might be at the
higher end of neighboring cities but it might be at the low end of what the company's budgeted
range is, is that?
O'Shea: Right. And for the amenities that we're providing. That's all I have.
Franks: Are we turning people away on weekends? Are you having like multiple requests?
Ruegemer: Certainly. Depending on if there's certain weekends, certainly.
Franks: Have we considered having a tiered pricing structure? I guess what I'm getting at is if
we have a demand time and the market is you know, the supply and demand. We have a lower
supply of weekends and a higher demand, would it be possible to charge more on weekends.
Charge less on weekdays and try to shift people around and increase the total number of
bookings, because some people might say I'm not going to do it on a Saturday, but I'm going to
do it on this Thursday and we'll make it work because we're going to get a better deal. And then
freeing up that weekend for someone who's willing to pay a little more and really look at. Now I
know we're nickel and diming you, I know we are because I agree with Dave that you know that
it's not like a ton of revenue we're talking about here but.
Ruegemer: Certainly if the commission wishes to do that we certainly can make that work. We
just need to take a look for our computer software as well as for the reservations schedule and
how that relates to multiple fees like that for accounting purposes. But we certainly can
investigate that.
Hoffman: $10,000 is a significant amount of revenue in our system.
Franks: Yeah, but I mean after the incidental costs, after the indirect costs we take out of it.
Hoffman: Anywhere we have revenue, $10,000, $15,000, $20,000, those are, you know we want
10, 15, 20 of those programs, those type of events at $10,000 are starting to add up.
Happe: I'm not saying the revenue's insignificant. I'm just saying that the percentage gained on
an increase in the fees if we raise the fees by an arbitrary $10. We should probably take a look at
what that total dollar amount, what impact that would have because it may be $500 or $1,000 is
what we're talking about.
Franks: I'd like to have my cake and eat it too. I'd like to increase the number of bookings and
increase the amounts that we can gain from this, not just from the extra amount from having more
bookings. But, and I think the approach to do that is really look at where's our highest demand
and what is the market willing to bear for that demand, and then possibly shifting people who are
unwilling to pay that to a time that's more conducive to that. Because there's both kinds of
people that are out there. People that are looking for a date and they're going to pay almost
whatever to get what they want, and people who are looking for a bargain. And it might be
possible to appeal to both of them.
Hoffman: Rod, do you have a number or percentage drop in mind for those weekdays?
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Franks: You know I really don't right off hand. In fact the idea is forming as we were talking
today, but when you mentioned the bookings on the weekends and then wondering if you could
have other people looking to book on weekends too, you know and already being booked, like
that's the demand time so that might demand a higher value.
Hoffman: Probably at 30 to 40 percent discount on weekday.
Franks: Probably something like that. I mean it's not being used right now. I mean they're not
being booked heavily on weekdays anyway. So if you look at and you see the same price, I'd be,
I'd hold out for a weekend too, you know. And then I'm capturing a weekend that somebody
might be willing to pay more.
Hoffman: Do some companies book weekdays?
Ruegemer: Certainly. During the days.
Hoffman: Currently so you'd be losing some cash there.
Franks: Right.
Ruegemer: Companies typically go Thursday-Friday's during the day or 4:00 to dark.
Franks: Well I'm certainly willing to go ahead and approve the fee structure for this year, but I
would really, I agree with Commissioner O'Shea that I think we need to start looking a little bit
more scientifically at all these things. We've had this great little city of 10,000 people for a long
time and we've operated well on antidotal evidence and, but we're getting bigger and we are
needing to get more sophisticated as well. One of the solutions that I might have to consider is
really adding on a new question on the questionnaire. Something like, it is expected as our costs
increase that reservation fees will increase in the next year. How much would you be willing to
pay, or something like that that is at least to get, it lacks face validity I know but at least
something to gauge, you know what are, would a 10% increase fit with your companies budget or
your organization's budget for next year? Something.
Happe: Wouldn't you assume you're going to run 100% negative on that though.
Franks: Well, but how negative are you going to run? You know is it going to be all the way to
the end or are we going to be in the 2 or 3. I guess that lacks some face validity, but at least it's
something. Tom?
Kelly: I like the tiered pricing approach. Monday through Thursday one price, which I think, I
don't even know if I would agree to reduce the price Monday through Thursday. I would almost.
Franks: Look at increasing.
Kelly: We want to, right. Maintain it as it is Monday through Thursday and then maybe 20%
increase, I don't know on Friday through Sunday because if it's supply and demand, and one
person says no for Saturday and there's someone else ready to take that slot, then we don't lose.
We still come out ahead so, I mean I think tiered structure is a common pricing practice. I don't
know if it is for parks but for hotels and all that stuff, you do see some tiered pricing.
Franks: Okay.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Atkins: I'm going to leave the resident fees alone. Because I think they're highly reasonable for
groups. I'd like to think that they wouldn't change, but I think the tier thing is very well worth
exploring too. Makes sense to me.
Franks: We need to take some action, so any other questions for staff?. We need to take some
action today. One course would be to of course approve the recommendations of the fee structure
that's been proposed for the 2003 season and really direct staff to develop and alternative for the
2004 season, taking into account the recommendations we have tonight about development of the
tiered approach to pricing. The other one would be, as I see it, is to implementing that in some
form for the 2003 season so I don't know if there's any discussion on the commission as far as
any comments.
Kelly: I thought there may have been a software issue with tiered pricing.
Ruegemer: That could probably be worked out...
Happe: Rod, I do like your idea of a tiered system to encourage additional usage of the facilities
that are not fully used during the week. Trying to incentivize the additional revenue creation if
possible. I don't know what we'll lose Jerry from the customers that will come back that are
currently supporting it in the weeks. I would however like to see that as incremental revenue and
not try to go to the highest common denominator by increasing the weekend rental rates, and
keeping those weekday rates the same. I think in the spirit of trying to generate additional use of
the facilities, the best answer is to do exactly as you've proposed in terms of trying to stimulate
additional use of and additional rental of those facilities, but I'm not in favor of raising the rates
to try to find the highest common denominator for our residents.
Franks: This year.
Happe: This year.
Franks: We haven't raised rates in about 3 years so the reality is that we're going to have to raise
rates probably in the next couple years for sure.
Ruegemer: Prior to that we did approximately 10% a year for many years.
Happe: I think a question that Amy asked, we're covering our operational expenses with the
revenue that we have coming in, so we're not funding or supporting a program that currently is in
the deficit. Is that correct?
Franks: Well my understanding is we're making money.
Happe: Right. So we're making money. We're not spending to keep this program alive, in it's
current state with these current fees and the current reservations, it's a profit generating vehicle
for the city. So to look at trying to enhance that profit, I'd love to see this stay affordable for our
residents.
Spizale: I think a 10% increase, after not increasing it for 3 years, wouldn't be much of an
increase. I mean cost of living goes up. Your costs go up. My costs go up. I don't think
anybody would balk at 10%. Especially since it hasn't been raised for 3 years. That's my
feeling.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Happe: I think you're right Jack. I don't know that they would balk at it. In fact I bet our
reservation rates stay strong. I just don't, we don't have to charge the maximum amount for
services that we can get by with. I would love to figure out a way to keep it as affordable as we
possibly can. We have residents that love to use these facilities, and I don't want to increase their
costs by $10 just because I can.
Franks: Now don't confuse me commissioners. That's so unlike you. Just when I think I have it
figured you throw me a curve. It seems as though if we're not capturing potential revenue, we're
actually subsidizing through tax dollars the loss of that revenue.
Happe: I don't think so because it's a revenue, a positive...
Franks: ...on how you want to look at it.
Happe: Rod, if it was a revenue, negative service, I'd agree with what you just said. We're
making money so it's not in effect costing taxpayers money. It's generating positive cashflow.
Franks: Well it is costing their money if in fact we're capturing all of the available money.
Happe: I understand your point.
Franks: Because then that's money that was not counted as revenue that we are spending from
some other, you see that's what I'm saying.
Happe: It's somewhat of a circular argument but I see where you're going.
Franks: Right, there's a little...
O'Shea: Dave when you say resident, do you mean, are you meaning or the Chanhassen business?
Happe: I mean resident as in Dave Happe wanting to secure it for my family reunion. Again I
don't, I'm just differentiating between resident and resident business. I'm not as adamant about
not raising the non-resident user fees because they've been paid to help us build these facilities.
But the residents either...when they moved into the neighborhood and there was a park and trail
fee or whatever the fees were that were raised to build these facilities. I think the residents have
already chipped in and I just hate to ask them for another $10 bill out of their pocket.
Franks: I'd like to propose an idea more along the lines of an experiment to see if we're on the
right track or not, because really we don't have anything, as I've said before, other than antidotal
evidence to base what we're going on, and that concerns me. But I'm wondering if we couldn't
adopt an approach where for 2003, for the Friday through, or Saturday through Sunday, or Friday
through Sunday reservations, we bump them up by 10% and leaving other reservations at the
current proposed 2003 rate. And seeing what the response is, and if it turns out that at the end of
the year. Doable Jerry?
Ruegemer: We can do anything you wish Commissioner Franks. We can make that happen.
O'Shea: Can I ask one more question?
Franks: Go right ahead Amy.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
O'Shea: Jerry, I'm focusing more on the business ones. How do you set Chanhassen business is
$45 for Lake Ann for the one and then it's $130 so there's quite a spread there. And then how,
right on that same page below for the other part of Lake Ann, it's closer to the 50% discount. The
130 to 280. How did you, how do you derive the difference?
Ruegemer: The first one you're looking at is the lakeside. That's a non-covered area. And the,
you know these fees were established back from past commissions. I think back when they
established these it was more kind of what the threshold of pain is, more so than any scientific
formula. If that' s what your question is.
O'Shea: I was just wondering how you came up with the different spread between the, you know
I thought like we'd have 50% discount for Chanhassen businesses. For example across the board
but I was trying to figure out how those prices were set and you answered it. It was kind of just
thrown out without any guidelines, is that right? Okay.
Franks: I want to put you on the spot again, but do you think that these prices make sense?
Ruegemer: Why don't they make sense?
Franks: Well I mean, if what you're saying is correct, and I've been a part of this commission for
a while but if this is all just arbitrary, and you know it was done at the threshold of pain, are we at
a point now, and maybe that's what a lot of the struggle is about here is we need to maybe not for
2003, but really take a pretty solid look at the whole fees that are charged, generally speaking, to
come up with the structure you know, because I'm sure that it's occurred. If the business people
are thinking about it, they looked at this whole sheet like this, the same question would occur.
What's the deal with that?
Happe: Staff's recommendation that we adopt these fees? And what I would like, Rod I know
there's a motion on the table.
Franks: There is no motion on the table.
Happe: Oh I'm sorry, I thought there was a motion on the table. What I would like to do is
instead of hastily raising rates arbitrarily, go with staff's recommendation while we continue to
study some of the neighboring. I know we haven't seen any hard data that says raise them or
don't raise them. We have staff's recommendation, after they've spent more time than we have
studying it, to go with these rates. What I would propose is that we go with staff's
recommendation and meanwhile we have time to review 2004 and beyond. I don't see the need
because of a profit loss, to raise the rates without having further study and further discussion on
it.
Franks: Okay. Well I'm willing to accept any motions that any commissioners wish to propose
SO.
Hoffman: You have an option of tabling this for 2 weeks.
Franks: You know.
Happe: We should roll with something.
Franks: What I'd like to do Todd is I understand that but I'd like to see if we're not at a point
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
where we can take some action, if we're unable to reach any kind of consensus or develop a
motion that's acceptable, then we should consider tabling it.
Kelly: I move to maintain the rates, the current proposed rates for Monday through Friday and
then increase the rates 10% on Saturday and Sunday for the year 2003.
Franks: There is that motion. Is there a second?
Spizale: I'll second that.
Franks: Okay, it's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion as
proposed? Todd.
Hoffman: If we go to 10% and then we find next year that we actually want a large, much larger
price variation, say 20 or 30%, then we're starting to tell people well this year your price gap was
10%, but we think we can go to 20 or 30. So I don't know if we're, granted many folks, these
people return.
Ruegemer: Many do.
Hoffman: Jerry takes all these calls and deals with all these people and he spends a good amount
of time on the phone with these people and so I just want to make sure if we're going to increase
rates, that's not a problem but let's do it consistently. So that 10% is going to end up to be what,
20 bucks. Or we'll round them up, and perhaps that's enough. We wouldn't go any higher.
O'Shea: Well you'd have your feedback. Jerry would have some feedback to base it on with the
negative comments or lack of booking. It'd be a way to at least have some quantifiable data.
Hoffman: I don't disagree with the concept. Perhaps the percentage.
O'Shea: I know what you're saying too is.
Kelly: It's too low? The percentage is too low?
O'Shea: We don't know.
Kelly: We don't know.
Spizale: I think it's a good start.
Franks: You obviously have more, both of you have more experience on this than we do but, you
know what, the process for determining what that percentage would be.
Hoffman: It's a guesstimate.
Franks: It's a guesstimate, right. Educated guesstimate hopefully. Well I'm wondering if we
couldn't use the year 2003 as a data gathering year. I mean I think there's some consensus that
we like the idea of a tiered, the free structure as a way to capture any revenue that might be lost
without alienating the repeat users or residents obviously and keeping it as affordable.
Affordable doesn't mean that the rates might not go up though, so it's what people are willing to
afford so.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Hoffman: And those tiers were across the board, residents, non-residents?
Ruegemer: 10%.
Kelly: There's an opportunity to test out the price and lasticity of our fees. I don't know.
Franks: Well we do have, is there any further discussion on the motion?
Kelly: The only group I would hesitate to raise fees on is non-profit seniors. I don't know if that,
because I know right now they're getting a 20% discount but I don't know if that makes.
Hoffman: 25.
Kelly: 25% discount. I don't know if that makes things too complicated. 25, I don't know.
Franks: I think Todd brings up a good point. You bring up another one that this is, we might not
just be ready to make all the decisions that would be necessary at this time to develop, because do
we do it with seniors or not the seniors? Do we do it with residents or not? With resident ·
businesses or non-resident businesses? Any further discussion on the motion? All those in favor
of the motion. Seeing none, we'll go ahead and take a vote.
Kelly moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission maintain the
current group picnic reservation fees for Monday through Friday and increase the rates
10% on Saturday and Sunday for the year 2003. Kelly, Franks and Spizale voted in favor,
O'Shea, Happe, and Atkins voted in opposition. The motion was tied with a 3-3 vote.
Franks: Can I see the opposed? We have 3-3. In the event of a tie, this has never happened to
me. The motion fails. Thanks for giving it a try. Appreciate it. I'm wondering if Jerry, if there
couldn't be some more compulsive record keeping. How many people are actually looking for
this Saturday, this Saturday, that. How many calls did you get on that?
Ruegemer: I receive many phone calls throughout the course of the week. I mean from this point
forward I certainly could have a log of sorts if people are looking for multiple listings or multiple
requests for certain weekends, we can certainly do that.
Franks: Is it necessary that this be approved prior to January of 2003?
Ruegemer: I believe it is. After the first of the year people start to kind of think towards that
process of reserving.
O'Shea: Can I, are we still able to throw things out?
Franks: Yeah, go ahead.
O'Shea: Jerry, because you have such a good working relationship with these people, what if you
called 5 of your, the people that have booked every year and said, you do it in a way that naturally
they're going to say well no, we'd like them to lower the price instead of raise it, but if you have
a good working relationship and say you know we don't want to lose your business but we really
do, we haven't raised our prices in 3 years. I just want to hear from you what you think is fair
because we really don't want to lose you as a customer, but and throw out a price range like give
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
them 3 different price ranges. And don't even give them the old price. I probably don't even
remember what they paid anyway, and just give them 3 different price ranges of, would you still
be able to, would your company still one, be able to afford using our facility. And would you
book with us at these rates. And just feel them out. Call some long standing customers and then
come back on December.
Ruegemer: Both resident and business?
O'Shea: Sure, and I'm just, I'm more focusing on the business end of it. The Chanhassen
business and then the non-Chanhassen business. Just call 4 or 5 of them in each category of those
two.
Franks: I hope you're not going on vacation in the next couple weeks, because where this is
headed is we're going to table this until the December meeting and we're going to direct you to
develop what you consider to be a reasonable plan for implementing a tiered reservation system
considering the respective prices for the businesses and for weekends and how you're going to
define that weekend, either Saturday-Sunday or Friday through Sunday.
Ruegemer: And my probably idea right now, talking to people, I would probably be 90 to 100
percent... 10 to 15% increase, whatever. 5 to 10. I would imagine that would be absorbed by the
company.
Spizale: I have one comment to make too. All these businesses have raised their prices in 3
years. You can bet on it. I can't see where it'd be an undue, I can't see where it'd be a problem
raising a fee for the businesses at least 10%. That's really nothing.
Kelly: This may be an apples to oranges comparison but you know if raising the fees of
businesses 10 to 15% means that we can flood an additional ice rink. I'm being serious though.
If we can take money here in something that I think is an acceptable approach to gain some
revenue and move it to flooding additional neighborhood parks, or something you know that
might be a benefit to at least part of the community. I think that's a fair reallocation of our
revenue and what comes in and where it goes. I look at this as we always seem to try to spend
money, I think this is an opportunity to gain a little revenue that we can apply to some of the
other areas where we are lacking funds.
Franks: So there's some consensus, I hope you're picking up on it. Okay?
Hoffman: My response to Commissioner Kelly is that, I know the council for one is going to say
any increase revenue that you make is great, but it's going to offset current costs. No doubt about
it.
Kelly: Okay, sorry.
Hoffman: At the current conversation with budget. They want us to, in fact they talked about the
committee that you're working on on the revenue at last night's budget meeting, and today I was
directed to formalize a brainstorming session among selected staff members to talk about how
park and recreation can raise revenues across the board. So this is one way that we can raise
revenues and we'll stick it right into the formula and this goes from a program orchestrations to
rec center increases to new forms of revenue. One thing, we always have to be cognizant of in
our business is that we haven't talked about the other aspect of company picnics tonight is that,
we've all attended them and they are a wonderful form of recreation that we want to continue to
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
foster. And so we tend, when we get into these budget discussions we tend to focus on the cash
and there's a whole other reason why we're in business as an organization, as a park and rec
commission.
Franks: I want to make clear, my goal is to increase the number of bookings, okay. And if
there's a way that we can set up a pricing structure to do that by providing alternatives that appear
to be more acceptable to the more sophisticating marking and make more money, all power to us
for that.
Happe: Rod as you know too, in some cases, I'm in the hard goods industry and some cases
when we lower the price, we sell more product. And I think in terms of those weekday lack of
bookings, we may find that we can increase the revenues by making those off days more
attractive. Not necessarily raising the price of that VCR just to garner more revenue on that one
individual transaction.
Franks: And I'm suggesting we don't have quite the information available to us to make that
decision because as you're saying, there's businesses that are paying full rate to have their picnic
on Friday afternoon or whatever, so I mean that's something for you guys to consider. I think it'd
be great if you could come back with at least a pretty good idea that we could kick around in a
more concrete fashion for the December meeting. So I'm wondering if there's a commissioner
who'd be willing to entertain a motion to table this item until our December meeting and to
further direct staff to come back with what their ideas are and how to implement, what we're
calling a tiered pricing schedule for park reservations and to, also indicating what percentage
increases, if any and to what populations those increases would be targeted. Help me out.
Happe: A motion, is that this point be move to the December meeting and that as Rod has
articulated, that staff prepare some summary reports on a way to implement a tiered system, along
with some directed or targeted fees for the various user groups and help us determine a way to use
this system to generate more bookings and generate additional revenue.
Franks: This has been moved. Is there a second?
O'Shea: I second.
Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion before us? Seeing
none we'll move it to a vote then.
Happe moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table action on
the 2003 group picnic reservation fees to the December meeting. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0.
Hoffman: We'll get this to marketing first thing tomorrow.
2002/2003 ICE SKATING PROGRAM.
Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks. We did, as you all know, discussed this at length at the
October meeting. Since then we certainly have gotten calls from Pheasant Hills. Mr. Koltes is
here again tonight. Also we have had increased phone calls from the Minnewashta Heights
neighborhood as well, stating support that they would like to see their rink be flooded and
operated again for this year. I did pass out another e-mail just from last Friday from Ms.
Schaeffer, and then also I had another phone call from a Debbie Bach today from the
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Minnewashta Heights. I don't have that in the form of an e-mail. Just to, I wanted to get it on
record that she did call and request that the rink be flooded and operated again for this year. We
had kind of talked about a number of different things. Certainly the feeling or the direction I got
from the commission, it seemed last, at last October meeting, it seemed like the sentiment on the
commission was to, they were in favor of or looking at least flooding the rinks for this coming
winter. Coming up with a new kind of data collection kind of a system, and then put the
neighborhood in question on notice so to speak and have sort of a notification letter that goes out
stating that we're seriously looking at this and we need to see some increased activity or your rink
may be in jeopardy during the 2004/2005. 03-04 season I guess it would be. Going into that we
certainly had talked about that and I guess, talking to a lot of different agencies, park and rec
agencies, there wasn't really a perfect system out there, or a system in many cases to collect data
on non-attendant rinks. You know a lot of people don't keep those types of records and a lot of
people don't keep attendance records at places that they attend. So looking at our system, it may
not be perfect but it is a system to collect numbers. Another way that we certainly have talked
about is maybe we should hire somebody for the winter time to go out at various and periodic
times throughout the course of the year at these different rinks. You know maybe 4, 5, 6 times a
week, at different times to collect that sort of data that I guess we're trying to collect and making
decisions on with that, so I guess what we're trying to do now is really kind of make that decision
I guess which way we're going to go. Certainly seen before that the commission is interested in
maintaining or preserving those neighborhood rinks. Just coming up and staff is certainly
interested in hearing what the commission has to say or if there' s different ways of collecting and
have thought about it since the last time. We're certainly interested in entertaining that.
Franks: Thank you Jerry. What I'd like to do is just take any very quick questions for Jerry from
the commission.
Happe: So the main reason we held it over was to see if there was a new measurement stick or a
new way to track performance against the ultimatum essentially that we're talking about...
neighborhoods and there wasn't any different way that staff has come up with to help us figure
out if our test is going to be successful or not.
Hoffman: Other than what you proposed.
Franks: Anything else7 Is there anyone in the audience wishing to address the commission on
this topic? Come on up. And we appreciate waiting through that.
Ted Koltes: No, not at all. I enjoyed it.
Franks: Would you state your name and your address for the record please.
Ted Koltes: My name is Ted Koltes at 1731 Wood Duck Circle. That's relative to the Pheasant
Hills Park that's been kind of the key to this discussion. Since my last attending this meeting I've
had a chance to talk with my neighbors more and kind of broaden out a little bit and it's really
only 4 to 5 the position as you've received and continuing the phone calls. The more I think
about this, it's not going to save money not to flood the parks. I mean it's, as I understand it, it's
budgeted to do this. It would just reallocated to another area. So in terms of X's and O's, as it
were, it's not safe revenue, and I levy that, I weigh that out against those that have committed to
me, and my efforts so I'm not making myself to be the fool in coming here and laying on the line
that yes, this particular park is going to get used. The one, and this is my first year at our address
here. We just moved in August. My question is, as I understand it there aren't lights. Is that,
okay. So on weekdays you're going to have Monday to Friday where the majority of the parents
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
aren't getting home til after dark. And my concern, based on this testing is that you know I
myself, I'm not going to be home before it gets dark Monday through Friday, so if it's measured
based on usage Monday to Friday, I can't contribute to it's usage during those times. Now on the
weekends I can contribute like all get out, and fairly intend to do so, but for lack of a better
system, I don't have any suggestions as far as that goes. The only thing I have to rely on are the
conversations of the neighbors that I've had and the feedback that I've received from them and
that now based on this being brought to the forefront is coming out from the neighborhood and
that is yes, they want it. They feel that they'll use it. It's important to them. It was important to
me and as I understand a number of other people in this room as they were growing up. Whether
it's for themselves or for the kids and I would just ask because it's not going to be a direct
correlation to savings to the city, that we at least be given the chance to demonstrate that very
usage this winter again. I guess I don't have more to say. I want to skate. It's cold out. If you're
not skating, winter is useless. You know we don't have big hills. We can't ski. We've got to
skate so I hope we can do that at Pheasant Hills Park. Thank you for your time. If I stay here, do
you have questions?
Hoffman: Just to maintain the accuracy of our conversation when we talk about cost. It would be
a reallocation of regular hours that, if you take a look at 2001 through 2002, we have regular time
of 6,200 and overtime of 4,500 so there would be a cost savings in those overtime hours which is
not 50% but a good percentage of the money that would, we use those overtime hours because
we're flooding around the clock. During the cold periods of the day.
Franks: Is there any questions?
Happe: On the week nights will you travel and use the city ice facilities with the lights and the
warming houses?
Ted Koltes: Based on my particular schedule, I can't speak of that of my neighbors but based on
my schedule I generally don't get home til 7:00-8:00. So where I would use it would be, you
know and conversely I am home generally til noon or so during the weekdays so I guess, backing
into what I was saying before, I would have time early on in the days to use it. But I mean I'm
going to be out there like a spotter with my binoculars looking for the sky with my skates in hand
so I can be out there when he's there. But yeah, I mean it's really, it's been kind of neat to see the
interest in the neighborhood and I, so much has changed from being a kid, when I was a kid and
I'm not even that old, to now being a kid today. And this is in my mind, and I know I'm partial
because of all those years of skating and playing hockey but I mean this, I look back on my, on
being a kid and this was kind of one of the purest forms of being a kid you know for me. You
know it's exercise. It's not sitting in front of a TV playing video games. All the people that I've
spoken with are easily within walking distance, and to bring that much further away, I wouldn't
hope for that. But yeah, I'm out there in the mornings.
Franks: So no light.
Ted Koltes: Light, say 11:00 when I've got to take my little man home and get ready for work
myself. But yeah the morning times would be great. And I mean from a, you know my little
girl's at school and I was very interested in this conversation earlier about the Chan Elementary
because that affects me directly but while my little girl's at school I'm thinking of myself and I
know that this is self serving of my interest but boy this is great time for me and my 4 year old
son to be out there playing and I just very much look forward to that time. And yes, it would be
more difficult for me obviously to get in a car and go somewhere else. And I can't speak for the
rest of my neighbors. I can't speak for their situations.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Franks: Okay. Any other questions for Mr. Koltes? Thanks again.
Ted Koltes: Thank you.
Franks: Let's bring this back to the commission and let's hear what your comments are.
Atkins: Since we're reconsidering it, I'm looking at it in a different light and thinking perhaps
just eliminating 5 or 6 of the parks. The rinks might be a good idea. Specifically Sunset,
Chanhassen Hills, Rice Marsh, Meadow Green and Carver Beach. Carver Beach and Meadow
Green are both quite close to City Center. Chanhassen Hills, from what I heard gets very little
use. And Rice Marsh and Sunset, I can't speak of because I don't know for sure where they are
SO.
Franks: So what you're advocating is to keep the pleasure rinks at Minnewashta Heights and
Pheasant Hills?
Atkins: Yes.
Franks: Paula, anything else?
Atkins: No.
Franks: Commissioner Kelly.
Kelly: I am in favor of, I mean of keeping the rinks open. I would hate to, I mean the
Minnewashta Heights and Pheasant Hills, those are the only two rinks that people have come
forward with in the last few weeks and voiced opinions?
Ruegemer: Yeah, I think I've also had a call from Rice Marsh.
Kelly: I think I'm in favor of keeping them open for a year. Sending out letters to all the
surrounding neighborhoods explaining that you know, without a lot of use this year, it may be
closed the next year. I don't see the need to hire someone to go and, go to these unlighted ones
and monitor the uses. I think if the system that we're using is as good or better than any other
system that park systems in the area are using, we'd have to probably stick with that but to your
point, let's not measure them on a Wednesday morning. Let's look at things on a Sunday
moming or Monday morning just to get a better reading as to how these rinks are used during the
potential peak times as opposed to the potential down times.
Hoffman: We can split that classification for you so we'll simply have it, you know obviously
Monday mornings are going to be the time where's going to be some heavy use, but these are, if
you look at the statistics that you have, they're being flooded on weekends, on Mondays, on
Thursdays and there are still rinks, whether they're flooded on a Sunday or a Thursday, just do
not see the use and it's not recorded here. It's not that we're going to, if it's being used heavily
on a weekend, it's going to get recorded.
Ted Koltes: And again Todd, can I say something else? That's from 2 years ago?
Hoffman: Yes.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Ted Koltes: I want to reiterate the turnover at least in our neighborhood in growth, there's a lot of
kids...that are skating age.
Ruegemer: I also did receive that same type of comments from Minnewashta Heights
neighborhood that there was turnover in the neighborhood. Kids were getting older. There's new
people in the neighborhood so some residents of the Minnewashta Heights did kind of echo Ted's
comments.
Franks: Okay. Tom, anything else?
Kelly: No.
Franks: Are you suggesting then to flood all of the pleasure rinks?
Kelly: I guess I'm going to turn it back. Is that fair? Is it fair to isolate, not isolate but is it fair to
only flood the two ones where there's been a lot of support for keeping it open or maybe... I
guess at a minimum I would like to see Minnewashta Heights and Pheasant Hills open, but I'd be,
I guess I'd be more comfortable with the decision of having all them open to give all the
neighborhoods opportunity this year to skate. I'm through, thanks.
Franks: Commissioner O'Shea.
O'Shea: My feelings are the same as what we passed last meeting, other than, and I'm back to
quantifiable data. I hate to see expense added to this program to hiring. I don't know if it would
be enough of us or other people that would volunteer to pick dates, if that makes sense, and times
of the day to go and, I certainly would be willing to take these 7-8 questions and go at an
appropriate time of what we think would be heavily used times, and go around and mark it
instead of having that incur the fee of hiring somebody. So we could look at the volunteer end of
it from this commission and other avenues that we might have. But the other thing we do have is,
you know the neighborhoods are changing but we have access to the demographics of these
neighborhoods. There is a certain age that's going to be using these parks. The kids, that if we
pulled up that demographic study and looked at which parks are growing out of the age that
typically uses this type of amenity, that would help us too at the next time that we evaluate so
where I stand is, one, I don't think we should add a fee of hiring somebody if we could get
enough volunteers to pick times that make sense. We should get it gathered that way. Leave
them open like we thought. Let the neighborhoods know that we're thinking, what we're
thinking and if the usage isn't up, we're going to have to eliminate that from the following winter.
So that's what I'd do. Is to, I mean bring in the demographics along when we're making this
decision. These neighborhoods are growing up and they've changed but these neighborhoods
have had new people move in that now have younger kids, plus the data we've collected this
winter. That's where I'm at.
Franks: Dave.
Happe: I don't think we'd be hiring somebody specially to do the monitoring. I believe it's the
people that are already going to be at the rinks flooding the rinks that do the actual record
keeping, correct?
Hoffman: There's two different methods. We can always do the person in the flood truck, but if
we want to count head counts when there's actual people there, then they go during a different
time because we flood after hours. For the most part.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Happe: Okay. If there's a motion raised to keep Pheasant Hills and Minnewashta Heights, and
go with staff's recommendation on the elimination of the rest, I would vote in favor of that
because I think it's an interesting compromise. We could use 2003 then really again as a data
collection year against that type of a move to determine if there were increases in the community
parks, just to further study that but I would be in support of that as a motion. I think Tom you
mentioned your concern for not only discriminate against a few, but right now in my perception,
we're discriminating against the neighborhoods that don't have this as an amenity offered to
them. Herman Field, Curry Farms Park, Highover, Longacres, Pulte, Walnut Grove, Greenwood
Shores, Kerber Pond, Stone Creek, Bluff Creek Estates, Lake Susan Hills East, Mission Hills,
Bandimere/Springfield, Lake Riley South, and Hesse Farm are several of the major
neighborhoods that don't have this same taxpayer subsidized service provided to their
neighborhoods, so I think under equal services I think your concern is probably good but it's,
there's a whole lot more than these 7 neighborhoods that are affected by paying taxes for these
facilities and not actually having them in their approximate area. So that being said, the motion
that I would prefer is to go with staff recommendation, if the motion is raised to do a partial in
keeping Pheasant Hills and Minnewashta Heights because of their citizen activist and to be able
to use that as a measurement tool for the elimination of parts of this program. Then I would vote
in favor of that motion as well.
Franks: Okay, thank you. Commissioner Spizale.
Spizale: Okay, my feeling is, I feel we should, this year, this winter we should flood the same
rinks that we did last year. I don't think we should change it this year. Take a look at the data
after this year and then make that decision. That's my feeling.
Franks: Okay. I think I mentioned this the last time. I've the unfortunate benefit of being
through this a number of times and my personal feeling is, it's going to be very difficult without
spending money, which I don't believe we have on this to collect better data than what we've got.
I was initially in favor of staffs recommendation to close the listed pleasure rinks. But I'm also
understanding that when you show up for dinner, you usually get to eat and the Pheasant Hills
neighborhood, correct?
Ted Koltes: Shown up for dinner, fight?
Franks: They've shown up for dinner. And to me that's a little bit of putting your money where
your mouth is, in a sense, if I can work in some other clich6s during my monologue I will try.
Ted Koltes: I'm already a citizen activist so...
Franks: But that level of commitment tells me, I mean that they're willing to show up and come
and send their e-mails and make the phone calls and actually come to these meetings, indicates
that there certainly is probably some behavior and numbers that are going to follow hopefully the
use. So I would personally be in favor of maintaining the Pheasant Hills rink and deleting the
other listed pleasure rinks from the earlier recommendations of staff. And at the same time,
directing the flooding crews to, as best as are able, to get some handle on what the usage is of that
rink. And then we're going to consider it again and it will be considered again and I know, but I
don't necessarily have a problem with that process to see who wants to come to the table every
year.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Hoffman: Back to the, Chair. The question, these other people don't know...so the fact that we
have one neighbor here and one neighborhood on the e-mail and the calling list. I mean Cindy
Hansen has got a calling phone tree going that we get these calls on a daily basis.
Happe: Well to that point though Todd, I think you have 12-15 neighborhoods that aren't part of
the program that also probably aren't cognizant of the fact that their tax dollars are either directly
or indirectly subsidizing this program. So yes, some of those neighborhoods maybe aren't as
aware as Pheasant Hills, but I'd counter that there's probably an equal amount of residents that
aren't aware that this program exists that they pay for and don't really have access to use.
Franks: I mean based on, I think you know where I'm at when it comes to opening up city
services and facilities to the public. I mean I've made that pretty clear over and over, but when I
look at the numbers Todd, it just doesn't look like that many people are going to be affected...at
that point consider that as well. That's unfortunate for city staff because it may mean some tough
phone calls to handle this year. But I'm sure that you'll direct them to come and address the
commission when the time's appropriate to consider the establishment of the 2003-2004 ice
skating program Todd.
Hoffman: I guess my concern is just not good policy and tonight we do have some numbers that
the commission I know is not particularly happy with. A point that if we were going to cut rinks
it wouldn't be, it would be Pheasant Hill and it would not be some other ones that you're talking
about cutting tonight, but the fact that we have at least one "neighborhood activist", my friend
Ted, and so he's here and so we're going to give him his rink and I'm not sure that that's good
policy.
O'Shea: Yeah to be fair, the neighborhoods should have gotten a letter saying to come to this
meeting if you felt strong like that because being in the, I don't think the neighborhoods realize
they' re going to get their rinks taken away.
Hoffman: Other than the fact that it was just not included in their brochure, and some people
clued into that, some people have not.
O'Shea: Yeah. It was out of the brochure that just went out. But I do think, I also want to weigh,
and I might be alone on this but I would like some more numbers, which we don't have and that's
why I'm sticking with what we passed last month, that I fear in business when you take
something away and cause animosity, it's worst than the $30,000 we're going to spend to collect
some hard data and then make a decision. So I worry more that sure, people are going to be mad
and when we get the irate people calling and the collecting, sometimes when people go around
the neighborhood, they'll get people to sign something and it will look like they would use it, but
in fact they wouldn't so it can be misleading data then next year when we look at this, we could
have this whole room filled, and yet they wouldn't have used it this year anyway. So then we're
going to go back and re-open, which makes us look like we didn't do our homework and make a
proper decision. So that's why I'm sticking with, let's open them. Let's collect the
demographics that we need. Let's get some data collected, either through a volunteer system and
go with that, and truly we started this because of low usage and you're fight. The one that should
be closed is the one we're thinking of keeping open and I don't think that's fair to the other
neighbors because they don't know or didn't key into the brochure that they weren't going to be
open.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Hoffman: Just some history on exactly what you said. When we closed Minnewashta the f'u'st
time, people reacted. Filled these chambers at least with some sort of effort that said let's bring it
back. We brought it back and you're right, that may occur.
Happe: That's how the process works though. We can't just make a decision based on whether
or not we're going to be popular. There's a whole study that shows that it is not a good return on
your investment.
O'Shea: Well it's not a decision on being popular as much as, again I want quantifiable data to
make our decision. And then you make a rationale decision. I think in a business sense we
would never make a decision right now without more data. And that's what I'm after. Is it going
to really hurt the city if we spend this $30,000 and try another year with collection like we talked
about last time, and then let's make a decision, then we're done. Then we don't.
Happe: The collection, we have the collection. The collection is going to be measured no
differently than the data that we already have.
O'Shea: Yeah, other than if we go back to the idea that Jerry brought in of having people actually
go at peak times, but do it, and I threw out doing it on a volunteer basis, because then I do think
we might get some different data. And then Pheasant Hills might turn out to be the most used this
year, or you know I think, then again I'm relying on this, and this might be incorrect of me. I
don't feel strongly that this is the right usage. I don't think it, I don't. And that's why I'm
wanting to try another year. Let's get some hard data. Demographics of those neighborhoods
and then make a decision once and for all, and then I feel strongly as a commissioner when
people come to me to say this is why I voted to close these rinks and I'd have some hard facts.
Right now if someone came to me, well we left Pheasant Hills open because we had one
representative, but yet they really, the least used rink, to me I don't feel, and it's not popular. I
just don't feel like it's a sound business decision making process. So that's why I'm still sticking
with let's open them, gather the information we need, and once and for all, because this has been
an agenda item it sounds like every, for a few years now, and then let's just decide the next time it
comes up next season.
Hoffman: Well there's 7 commissioners. That's 7 weeks.
O'Shea: Yeah, I mean just how long, will it take that long? It might not be as fun as the 4th of
July but, I don't know.
Happe: What's your thought process to all the neighborhoods that because they're not part of this
old system of doing this have no opportunity to, I mean your concerned about the 7 existing
neighborhoods. I'm concerned about the 15 neighborhoods that pay for this that don't have the
same opportunity to get the service.
O'Shea: Well that's where you know I think, once we get the numbers and maybe then we're
looking at if we get the demographics and we see neighborhoods that have a potential, maybe we
then look at well shoot, maybe these 7 aren't open but maybe we should be looking at these other
neighborhoods that have the demographics of the age of children that use rinks. So that might
come up.
Franks: We don't even know what, I mean it could very well have nothing to do with age. It
could be user trends.
33
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Hoffman: Which are down.
Franks: Which are down, I mean we know that so I think that's why this has been coming up. Is
that we've tried to make it a numbers game about usage and I think it just, tennis. It happened
with racquetball. It happens with participant sports. That you know they're up and down and I
think what we're really experiencing now is that those neighborhood rinks just are not seeing the
use that we used them when we were kids. And we would all wish that it were that way but I just
don't think that it is. And I don't want the commissioners to forget that we're not proposing
taking out providing ice skating amenity in the city. In fact we're proposing keeping some very
nice facilities open in centrally located and easily accessible locations. My preference certainly,
as I stated in the last meeting, would be to follow staff' s initial recommendation and close all of
the listed pleasure rinks. Okay. At least for me to be honest, I can say that finding some way to
get most of what I want by...seemed prudent but if it comes down to it, I would certainly be most
in favor of following staff' s earlier recommendation.
Atkins: What if we would use Pheasant Hills and Minnewashta as more of a monitor those two
very closely rather than try and monitor all 7? And use that data.
Franks: Monitor, how?
Atkins: Usage. I don't know.
Franks: See I think.
Atkins: On a voluntary basis perhaps.
Franks: And then it's coordinating volunteers and finding volunteers and having people sign up
and then actually are they going to get there on time, when they're supposed to. I mean it
becomes very, very complicated. Well we' ve gone round and round on this so let' s.
Kelly: Is there a motion?
Franks: Yes, is there a motion? It's time for a motion. There is not a motion on the table.
Happe: I'd make the motion. I'd like to move that we support staff's initial recommendation for
the supporting of the community park ice facilities complete with warming houses and lights as
identified in their initial report to this commission. In addition I would, consistent with staff's
recommendation, propose that those resources be devoted to those community park facilities and
that the neighborhood ice sheets not be funded for the 2002-2003 calendar and fiscal year.
Franks: Okay, it's been moved. Is there a second? Is there a second? Seeing that there is no
second for the motion, the motion fails. Is there another commissioner willing to make a motion?
Kelly: I would like to make a motion on the entire other side of the spectrum. I move that we
keep the 7 neighborhood ice rinks open for 2002-2003, along with that sending out letters to all
the neighborhood residents stating that these rinks may be closed in the 2003-2004 season
pending low usage in the 2002-2003 season. To monitor the usage I would propose using the
current system of that's being implemented fight now with looking at the ice when they go to re-
surfacing, and possibly augment that with some volunteer supervision. Volunteer stuff.
O'Shea: Data collection.
34
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Kelly: Yeah, data collection to be determined but still focus the primary, the primary utilization
analysis using current methods.
Franks: It's been moved. Is there a second?
Spizale: I'll second it.
Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion?
Kelly moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission approve that the
warming house locations be maintained at the Chanhassen Recreation Center, City Center
Park, Roundhouse Park, and North Lotus Park for the 2002-2003 season. Also that the 7
neighborhood ice rinks which include Minnewashta Heights, Pheasant Hills, Carver Beach,
Meadow Green, Rice Marsh, Sunset Park and Chanhassen Hills Park remain open for
2002-2003, along with sending letters to aH the neighborhood residents stating that these
rinks may be closed in the 2003-2004 season pending low usage in the 2002-2003 season,
using the current system of record keeping for rink usage. All voted in favor, except Franks
and Happe who opposed, and the motion carried With a vote of 4 to 2.
Hoffman: We'll get commissioners out to these ice sheets on a weekend, I think that's going to
be very educational and so we'll start Dale with our volunteers and I'll go out there and count
people and we'll have that data to see to compare against the maintenance folks data and we'll
come up with a manner to collect that, what would be reporting that which tends to quantify that
data that can be a little bit more dissected. Weekends, you know Monday mornings versus the
weekday times.
Atkins: And this is just the 7, not the?
Hoffman: Yes, the 7 neighborhood rinks.
Franks: Well good work.
RECREATION PROGRAMS:
2002 HALLOWEEN PARTY EVALUATION.
Franks: Jerry, will you be taking over this one?
Ruegemer: I will be.
Franks: Because I don't see Corey here but. Can we move through the highlights and then just
save some time for comments from the commission, thanks.
Ruegemer: Certainly. Highlights. The musical entertainment was moved back per some
recommendations and that's working. We did move them all back and they did have more room
in front, and actually we fought them a little bit at the beginning of moving them back. They
wanted to be closer but at the end of the night they thought you know what, hey. This really
worked out so moving it back, so that was, I think that really worked out nice. Having candy
distributors on one side of the hallway certainly worked out very good with that. Again our
numbers were down a bit from previous years, but it seemed like the flow of the event really went
35
Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
much nicer and smoother. It wasn't just kind of a mob of people. It really made a nice event
where we could walk through the hallway. You could sit down and have something to eat. You
could go to the games' and have fun and go to the entertainment. So it really was a nice event
really all the way around. Corey had some general, we had a lot of volunteers again from the
KEY Club and Park and Rec commissioners and others commissions were represented from the
city. So that really helped us out a great deal. We don't hage a big issue or problem with
volunteers. Everybody was there early. Everybody was dressed. It really was a great event from
that aspect. And then a lot of the comments were kind of down here but it really is a fun event.
People seem to have a good time. Staff enjoys it so, any questions?
Franks: Questions or comments?
Ruegemer: Just thanks again to all the commissioners that were there that evening to help out
and came in costume and helped out with registrations and all that. It really helps us out so thank
you.
Franks: You're down about 100.
Ruegemer: Yeah, we had 215 kids pre-registered and 112 walk-in for a total of 327, which is
down. You know you figure one or two parents per so we're up in that 500 and 600 range for
people, which is down 200 to 300 maybe from previous years.
Franks: It will be up next year.
Hoffman: 4 bucks a person.
Ruegemer: 4 bucks.
Atkins: I have a comment. It was the first time I attended that and even my kids never went to it.
I think maybe they were too old or too young or whatever, but it was wonderfully run and very
impressive, I thought. I enjoyed it.
Franks: Pass that onto Corey.
Ruegemer: Yes we will certainly. He does a good job. Great job.
2002 TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY.
Ruegemer: Tree lighting's coming up December 7th at 5:00 and since we don't have a tree here
anymore, where the library is currently being constructed, for the second year in a row it will be
down by the clock tower plaza, just on the east side of the medical, Chanhassen Medical building.
Kind of down in that area. Kind of where the clock tower is. So that will be taking place at, I
believe Mayor Jansen will be there to officially throw the switch if you will on the tree. Kicking
off the holiday season and then we're also, we'll have some refreshments and a bonfire and that
sort of thing there, Santa Clause will also be there. So if everybody's in town, please attend.
Happe: Jerry, Chapel Hill Academy thinks they're a co-sponsor of the event, and I asked the
question last time and I was told it was with the Chanhassen Chamber and the City of Chan. For
some reason Chapel Hill Academy has...
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Ruegemer: I know that they have a component of the event. I believe that we are the sponsor
and the Chanhassen Chamber is a sponsor so if there was misleading information.
Hoffman: What do they do, sing?
Happe: Do they do the refreshments as well?
Ruegemer: I know they sing. Typically the refreshments are from the Chamber of Commerce
who get cookie snack from Pillsbury and that sort of thing.
Happe: Okay. I'll see if I can chase it down because I can probably clear that up if they are a
co-sponsored, I'd like to see them recognized, but if that's not the role, maybe it's just a
communication.
Ruegemer: I can direct that tomorrow morning as well.
Happe: Okay.
Franks: Thank you Jerry.
Ruegemer: You're welcome.
ADMINISTRATIVE: ROUNDHOUSE RESTORATION, ROUNDHOUSE PARK.
Hoffman: Thank you Chair Franks, members of the commission. On October 28th the City
Council received a report from Deanna Bunkelman, which was much awaited over the summer.
And upon receiving that report and hearing from Ms. Bunkelman, the City Council directed staff
to repair the roof and paint the structure under a city contract, not a neighborhood initiative and
those repairs be an amount not to exceed the $25,000 which is left on the ledger for the
improvements at Roundhouse. And that is in an effort simply to get off the dime and get
something done there and many complaints that the council members have been hearing is over
the appearance of the structure. Thereafter then the building would be turned over to the
neighborhood for additional improvement. Staff will be soliciting bids on this project over the
winter in the hopes of we can have a contractor there first thing this spring to complete those
improvements, and the neighborhood can take it from there.
Franks: What color are they going to paint it?
Hoffman: What color would you like to paint it?
Franks: Well I just don't, you know.
Hoffman: That's our decision.
Franks: Okay. In a way I'm only partly joking but is that going to come back to us? Or who's
handling those types of decisions I guess? You are?
Hoffman: So if you have direction, let me know.
Atkins: Pink.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Happe: Or green.
Franks: Well my only thought for you to consider is there's something that approximates what
that naturally stained, clear coated wood would appear. Some nice, warm earth tone color that
fits in instead of you know, light blue or green or any of the other colors.
Hoffman: Earth tone, nice shingles.
Franks: Earth tone, nice shingles. Architectural shingles would be nice.
Hoffman: The wild card here is the windows. It would be nice not to have boards in the exterior
of the building, but I'm not sure that.
Franks: But what I understood was that the neighborhood group was going to coordinate the
installation of the windows with some of the work to the exterior of the building.
Hoffman: Hopefully.
Happe: Was there a timeline that was identified for the completion of the interior of the building?
Hoffman: No. There was in the contract but this, the neighbor has not signed it. And under this
arrangement I don't believe that the contract is valid any longer. One other comment I want to
make is, that I thought about during the meeting is the City Council is currently working on the
city's budget. Last night they had a budget meeting. Two weeks ago they had a budget meeting.
Next Monday night is the Truth in Taxation hearing here in the City Council chambers, 7:00.
They will then move to what is currently scheduled as their final budget meeting on December
9th. The capital plan that you saw over the summer, you will not recognize the capital plan that is
currently before the City Council. We have, staff has worked with the administration and with
the council on taking in some of the changes that the commission talked about. Deleting the
Bandimere park shelter, and putting that money back into the replacement of these playgrounds
that have been identified. The council has accepted and endorsed that idea and will approve at
least probably 50% of what we need to do this year, with an intent or at least a suggestion that the
remaining 50% would occur next year. The other change, which is even more significant, is the
city commons library has been on a three way split budget up until recently, and now the primary
funding source as at least identified by administration for that is fund 410 park dedication. So if
it moves forward as the council is currently planned, that will be most likely a $500 to $600,000
expenditure out of fund 410, versus an original anticipated level of $200,000. So that's a big
change in fund 410.
Franks: Thank you for that good news. Alright.
Happe: When will we then be able to see what kind of the, is it January that we'll be able to see
what actually was approved on a line item basis?
Hoffman: Yes.
Happe: Okay. That's a big dollar amount for the city commons library work.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS.
Franks: We actually have one. Commissioner Happe.
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
Happe: We do have one. And Todd, maybe you can jump in onto the back of this just for
clarification of what we talked about earlier about the alternative revenues. We did have our first
meeting of the alternative revenue committee meeting. We discussed many ideas. We threw out,
basically had a good brainstorming session. It was attended by myself, Commissioner O'Shea
and Commission Spizale. We talked about a lot of ideas. We threw a lot of ideas on the board.
We then classified those ideas in terms of some high priority ideas. Tabled ideas and ideas that
we killed altogether. The intent is to, for this committee to forward back to this commission the
best of the alternative revenue ideas that we come up with in committee. The high priority ideas
were each identified and designated to one of us individually to follow up on for our next
committee meeting which will happen sometime in December. The major ideas that emerged out
of this committee meeting that were assigned as high priority include that we're going to review
further and include municipal golf course. A golf dome possibly combined with a golf course.
Some type of a municipal arena concept that could be a multi-use facility. We talked about the
potential to take a look at the development of the round house as potential program space. We
talked about some ideas for activity fee generation from the heavy users of the athletic and
recreational facilities that we have in Chan. We talked about as a high priority item, lake area
dockage rental. Potential to utilize existing city land and maybe put some enhancements onto the
lakes that could be revenue generating in terms of dock space, etc. We talked about a dog park,
which has been brought up frequently, and a few other pet related ideas that we're going to chase,-
pardon the pun, in the interest of determining additional revenue, positive revenue generation we
can create there. We'll have another report, we haven't scheduled yet that next meeting. We'll
do that at the close of the meeting this evening, but we should have another report at the next 1 to
2 meetings of our progress and of the ideas that have emerged from this committee.
Franks: Great, sounds good. Keep it up. We'll look forward to that report. Any other
commission member presentations or committee reports?
Hoffman: Focus group?
Franks: Well Paula, do you want to handle that one?
Atkins: I didn't bring the sheet.
Franks: Okay. The community center focus group has concluded it's work. It did report back to
the City Council yesterday, and do you have the top 5 amenities?
Hoffman: Top 5 amenities are indoor pool, water park outside, fitness area, ice arena and
performing arts.
Franks: So the focus group accomplished it's stated purpose of providing the city with some
feedback that the group of residents did believe some community center in some form was viable
here and that the preferred amenities are the top 5 as listed. And that the focus group also saw
that working in some form of partnership with some other as yet to be identified entities would
probably be the most viable way to bring the community center to our city.
Hoffman: Ron Laprade, he presented last night to the City Council. Was well received. The
City Council made a variety of inquiries and they also heard from Cindy 'Skack who was on the
committee. Brought forth some independent comments of her own. And discussed but did not
make a commitment, or at least a firm commitment, to continuing the process through our fee
request for proposals and so then...
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Park and Rec Commission - November 26, 2002
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
Franks: That's good. Under the Administrative Packet. Is there anything to comment on there?
Kelly: Thanks for the...paths.
Franks: They are nice.
Happe: Todd, you are a good person.
Hoffman: Well you like to see that in print occasionally.
Franks: Any other comments regarding the administrative packet?
Happe: I guess the letter to Carver County Attorney Fahey, that situation's been positively
resolved already so.
Hoffman: Great.
Franks: Okay seeing none, is there a motion to adjourn?
Happe moved, Spizale seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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