The URL can be used to link to this page

1 Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JULY 23, 2002 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Jack Spizale, Amy O' Shea, Glenn Stolar, Paula Atkins, Tom Kelly and David Happe MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director and Corey Hoen, Recreation Supervisor APPROVAL OF AGENDA: The agenda was amended to add an item number 6, discussion points for the joint meeting with the City Council and Park and Recreation Commission. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Andy Joe: Hi. My name is Andy Joe. My address is 563 Summerfield Drive, and that's in the Springfield development. And we live just on the north side of Bandimere Park. There's a drainage pond just between the soccer fields and our back yard, and so there's a couple issues I just wanted to address and bring up. First issue is, the way the soccer fields are situated, where you typically end up with, at least on an average of 2 to 3 soccer balls in our pond, you know during the course of a week. A lot of times, like let's see here. Just like last week, there was about 6 balls that ended up in the pond during one of the tournament nights. There's another incident this weekend where one of the team coaches allowed some of the players to urinate on some of the neighbor' s trees. So there' s really no delineation of where the Bandimere property line ends and where the neighborhood starts, or the homeowner's property starts. So really there's, the problem again arises because the soccer ball ends up in the neighborhood yards, in the pond, and then of course you know they've got to try to retrieve their balls. So you get strangers walking in our back yards. Over the course of the last couple of years I've seen, you know most of the soccer people are real nice, and most of them are pretty good about trying to retrieve their balls but every once in a while you tend to get people you know even some of the adults, trying to break branches off of the trees. You know trying to use them as sticks or an object to retrieve their balls. My wife has had some people come and take landscaping rocks out of our landscaping and throwing them in the pond trying to get them to splash and causing the waves to carry the soccer balls to the edge. There's other incidents. Another incident was last year a kid even stripped down to his shorts, jumped into the pond and swam to retrieve his ball. So you know like I said, I understand' that the soccer teams, they need to try to retrieve their equipment but it's also disturbing when you get strangers walking in your back yard and your children are in the back yard playing and you don't know who they are so. So that's sort of a concern that we have. The park maintenance tried an attempt at fixing it a couple times by putting up one of those like plastic snow fences along the edges there which is again 4 feet high, and that sort of resolved the problem a little bit. You know about half the balls would hit it and it would stop it. The other half would either go over it and, or to the side of it. The other problem with that too is that after every winter the plastic fencing' wo. uld get all crushed and break off and get brittley and it would end up you know with the high winds we have in Chanhassen, they end up breaking off and Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 flying off into Bandimere somewhere. So it also tends to be quite an eyesore with a fence that's all beat up and tipped apart so. I guess what we would like to see is some type of shrubbery or hedges planted along that north side there. I think that would solve the problem of most of the soccer balls going into the pond or into the neighborhood. They would also act as a natural buffer zone in keeping debris and garbage out of the pond, which is what they're' designed you know to keep..You know to keep our waters and that, the environmental hazards out of it so I think that would help. And in addition also I think it would be nice to have some private property signs put up so the people in the park are aware that this is homeowners property and they might think about not breaking off branches from the trees and so forth, you know so. The second issue I'd like to bring up is the issue of tennis courts. I read the minutes from the last, the previous two meetings, and there's some comments made about tennis courts not being very popular anymore and not being used. Well my wife went out this afternoon and decided to see how many people would sign a petition as far as wanting tennis courts in Bandimere, and she' s got a list of 25, do my math here. 32 names. This is what, in 2 ~A hours. So we would like to see the tennis courts remain. And the other thing I was looking at too is, there's some comments about the hard court, which is like a hop scotch court or something like that, because of Phase II of the playground area not having space. So my thoughts on that was, combine both the tennis court and the hop scotch court and basketball court all in one area. It's all asphalt and then you've got 3 things you can do in one area. So just a thought. But anyways, like I said, we got 32 names, or families that would like a tennis court in Bandimere Park. Third issue I'd like to bring up are the ballfield lighting. And again most of the residents in Springfield, and in our neighborhood, feel opposed to having lighting at least directly on the soccer fields. If not lighting in the whole park itself, but the immediate concern is the soccer fields because there's a bunch of homes that back up right to the soccer fields itself. Part of the problem too, once you bring in lights, it expands the amount of time that you have noise from tournaments, people yelling, shouting. You know depending on what time the lights go off at night. I've seen playing softball games at other parks in the past, you have people out in the parks until 10:00-10:30 at night. You know games going on that late at night, and depending on what kind of drinking restrictions you have or don't have, you know people tend to hang around and socialize and that too so you still get noise from the park. So again my wife went around the neighborhood and collected 29 signatures here. Neighbors from Springfield that would, are opposed to ballfield lights. A couple just other items too. One, I just wanted to touch on was the tree maintenance. There's a dead pine tree on the corner of, one of the soccer fields I just wanted to bring up. I didn't know who I should contact about that. The second thing is just more or less a comment, since you guys are the Park and Rec Commission. I've talked with a lot of other friends through baseball and that and their kids play soccer at Bandimere and they always, the one comment I always hear is, parking's a nightmare over there because of how many games and how many kids they have going on over there. The other comment I get, or I hear a lot is the entrance to the park being on top of a hill is sort of dangerous. It's sort of in a blind spot so I just thought I'd pass along those last two comments. And that's about it. Franks: Great, thank you. Andy Joe: Thank you. Franks: Is there anyone else wishing to address the commission on these same, similar issues? Maybe we'll just hear from everybody and then we'll take discussions from the commission. Ron Styrka: Yes, hello. My name is Ron Styrka and I'm at 569 Summerfield Drive also and it's the same kind of situation too. Basically there's a lot of activity that happens in the park, and it's good activity, and the neighborhood really does like it. I mean to hear the shouting on Sundays Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 and everything, it's really good. We do have a lot of fun with it, and limiting the amount of use, especially with the lights, especially on the soccer fields...would actually be a benefit because other friends of mine live in neighborhoods where they have lighting and it seems like it goes longer and longer and longer. It gets really late into the evening and it does cause a lot of noise and I did speak with, I'm not sure if it was Todd or Corey, about the possibility of something very similar to what Andy was saying. If we could have some kind of natural barrier like a sumac bush or something that grow up really tall that could prevent some of these balls from going into the lake, it really would take a lot of the pressure off the balls going into this pond. And yet it wouldn't be an eyesore like a very high fence would be, so I mean I agree with all that Andy is saying. The neighborhood feels very similar to that too so. The only other thing that I mentioned too is, in reading through the notes, I take a little bit of a conservative approach for some of the expenses being spent sometimes in Bandimere Park, and if we're looking at $25,000 being the, you know for the silo and some of those issues, I personally feel, as do other people in the neighborhood too. Maybe take some of that money and redirect it for more of the paths because Chanhassen currently is kind of a little bit broken up as far as paths. As far as bikes and that coming in from the south. I do know that there's a corridor that's being repaired to go from the south, you know to get into downtown but if we could maybe redirect some of that money towards some of these paths, a lot of people would use it. Especially when you have some of these retail shops being developed over by St. Hubert' s. I mean a lot of people are biking on the trails and actually riding bike as a family kind of coming and going out so I take the approach of maybe redirecting the money for the silo painting or something like this and maybe redirect it more. And the price of some of the lighting. Redirect some of that towards a path and I think you would have a huge benefit. Franks: For your benefit, I can just respond to a few of the arguments, and Todd I'd just request that you jump in as you feel is appropriate, but just to start with some of the Joe's, and some of the things he came with at the end. Tree maintenance I'm sure Todd has noted. He'll direct the maintenance staff to take a look at that as we're continually replacing and reforesting the trees in the parks system. Parking. It's already been identified as a problem and the Park and Rec Department, as well as the commission is taking a look at that and attempting to work with both associations to try and do what we can to rectify the parking. The entrance has been a difficulty from day one. However, that's the one spot that MnDot allows for the entrance into the park, and we' ve also attempted to make the best of that situation by creating that island so people at least have to slow down as they get to the crest of the hill and look before they make a left turn, but we have accidents from the day the park opened.., so we've been working on that continually too. The tennis courts were part of the original concept plan for Bandimere, and since that time the philosophy of this commission has been to add tennis courts as an amenity in regionally located parks instead of into neighborhood parks, and Bandimere Community Park, Bandimere would fit that designation. However, the utilization of tennis courts throughout the city has been in decline and there are a number of really nice lighted tennis facilities that are available. We drove to today at Lake Susan and City Center and there wasn't anybody playing, so that's something we are continually taking a look at. The commission is currently considering tennis courts as an issue as we look into our capital improvement program out for the next 5 years so it's good to know that people are talking about it and thinking about it too. It's good information for us to have as we engage in that process. Resident: Just the one other thing about Bandimere, it's such an easy access for all the homes in Springfield...people to walk over and play tennis as opposed to jumping in a car with all the kids. Franks: The thing to remember is that Bandimere, I'm not trying to argue. The idea, Bandimere is in a unique position as far as the Springfield neighborhood is concerned because it has the Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 ability to function as a Springfield neighborhood park, and yet at the same time it's a community park as well so what the residents of Springfield view of Bandimere Park might be slightly different than the view of this commission and how we conceptualize Bandimere Park as well, but that again is important for us to understand your perspective as well. Personally I kind of like the idea of trying to deal with the ball screening with a natural kind of screening. I don't have any idea of the effectiveness or plant varieties or how many years it would take to build up a natural screen for that pond issue. Todd, what's been the word from the sports associations on balls in the NURP pond? Hoffman: The fences that are out there were installed by the soccer association as an attempt to minimize that. In conversation with both the neighbors and the association, we budgeted I believe it was about $10,000 or $12,000 to put up what would be black netting, and so there'd be...not very visible. But then galvanized poles I belie.ve up to about 12 feet, and that was cut from the budget and so they were not installed. Vegetation of the height sufficient to stop those soccer balls from going in, do not, with the shrub area is going to be...so.you're going to have a better impact on identifying the property line. People are still going to cross to get those soccer balls, if they want to retrieve their soccer balls from the ponds, so it's a problem on both sides. The north side and the south side, and the south side they head out down into the trees and so we would like to net, put nets up on both of those sides to stop that, or reduce that situation. Resident: I don't think the problem is as bad on the soccer field as opposed to the connection. There is a berm there, as you get closer to the kind of... That side is definitely bad. I mean it slopes fight down into your pond, and I think as you get more closer to the...berm as a natural stopping point... Ron Stryka: We never see anybody go in those other yards but one thing that we did see, this one night I was...most of the balls are...they're rolling over the edge and that 4 foot height stops most of them and so we thought let's say that you started with say a sumac or something...Sumac bush and they grow, they start here so the first year you're... ' Stolar: Which homes are your's? Ron Stryka: I'm in this house and Andy's here. Franks: And can you point out the property lines actually? Ron Stryka: The property lines are right, you know mine goes behind. It comes like this and then, well it's kind of a complicated story but the next property line kind of runs right along the fence .... halfway between this trail and the actual line. The one person has the grass cut really smooth so when the balls go past a little bit... So what we're looking for is just something low cost and we're looking at something that looks good and very appealing. You know if we could do something... Franks: Are you suggesting, just one question. Are you suggesting that these bushes be planted on the property owner's property? Ron Stryka: City property. Franks: Is there enough city property there? Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Hoffman: We'll take a look at that. As a part of the 2003 budget, I'll simply bring forward a variety of alternatives for the commission to consider and...and ask the council... Franks: Are the sports associations, if you would check with them and see if they're willing to participate... Hoffman: Sure. Andy Joe: So this is something... In the near term I would hope still exists where the netting. Pam Joe: Yeah. If we could just put that fence back. Andy Joe: Yeah, in the near term because a quick solution, just rehang that...netting to stop. Pam Joe: ...it really helps. Franks: Well we'll have. Hoffman: We'll call the soccer association. Franks: Yeah, great. And then you take a look at it, staff and provide some alternatives. Hoffman: ...regarding the input from the residents. I believe all the deeds for Summerfield include a disclosure that Bandimere would be a lighted facility in the future. And then the third choice of access for Bandimere was actually through the Summerfield development, but Lundgren was not interested in cooperating with the city to provide... The original access without the median was a bad situation. Now, since the medians have been put in, we probably had a dozen accidents in half a year before the median and afterwards I know one in the past year and a half so... so that has really helped. Resident: Were lights on both the soccer fields and softball fields part of the disclosure or just softball fields? Hoffman: All the fields I believe. Resident: Because I remember the softball fields but they never mentioned the lighting on the soccer fields. We thought that they were so far removed they wouldn't affect hardly anyone in Springfield development, but the soccer lights would affect a lot of people. I remember specifically asking that question to Lundgren and getting, they may put lights on the softball fields you know in 2010. Franks: This is why I brought up the difference between Bandimere Park as a community park as opposed to a neighborhood park. We would not light the fields in neighborhood parks simply because of what a neighborhood park, and you don't use neighborhood parks for that kind of...but a community park on the other hand is designed for more intensive programming. And the idea behind creating a soccer field there, which is probably our premiere soccer facility in the city, was to maximize it's utilization and to really accomplish that, we look at lighting it as well. Pam Joe: ...the whole neighborhood or... Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: Well you know, lighting is also something that we consider when we develop our capital improvement plan and.it stretches out for a 5 year period so we haven't formalized that plan yet. It's necessary for us to work with consultants and engineers when we design a lighting plan for a field. I'm not aware if we have any current recommendations on what the lighting concept would be. Hoffman: The concept about lighting athletic fields into the future is that, as the population grows and the demand goes up, instead of having to acquire additional land...you add lighting and you gain that additional space. So until we reach that point you really don't need to go through the exercise of deciding. The progression of lighting started from the first soccer field closest to 101, but it would be some economies made in lighting those two fields because you'd have one set of lights going down the center and lighting both sides, so that would also be looked at at that time... O'Shea: I have a question with that. If they were lit, and it sounds like it's not an immediate concern but what time do they have to be turned off?. Hoffman: 10:00 p.m. O'Shea: 10:00 p.m... Stolar: In the fall you get a lot more time than in the summer... I think it's important to know...with regards to the land because this, that was the position in Eden Prairie also and it was pretty clear that the homeowners...next to a community park, it was delineated what they should expect in terms of that house of choice. I want to know what the information was that you were supposed to be given. I can't say whether Lundgren gave, or anybody gave it, but if it's in there...I think should drive our decision when we get to that. Franks: Notification before that comes up before the commisSion is provided to the residents affected so they would have the opportunity to come in. Hoffman: It's also important to note that that was a condition of approval of the Summerfield Addition that Lundgren do that. If they did not perform those disclosures, that does not prevent the city from putting those lights on those soccer fields. Stolar: I understand. Franks: That doesn't make it any better for you, but it helps at least explain the process and when it does come up, when the time arises when we need to be utilizing those fields in that way, that certainly people's input is requested and appreciated here on this commission. Since I had you make comments on the record, if you could just state your name and address so, up at the podium so we get your right name. Pam Joe: Pam Joe, 563 Summerfield Drive. And could I ask what the time frame, when do we have to worry about this? You said it wouldn't be... Hoffman: Lighting? Pam Joe: Yes. Hoffman: It's not been brought up on our 5 year capital improvement program. Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: The lighting is not...Thanks. Thank you for coming. Any comments from commission? O'Shea: Just one question. Since you're here, do you have any type of...or if the city came back and said we...to the neighbors? Did you have a certain height in mind that you would not want to exceed? Audience: No. O'Shea: So you don't care about the visibility...? Audience: No. O'Shea: Okay. So height is not a concern. As long as it's... Pam Joe: The higher the better. Andy Joe: As long as it does the objective which is to help keep the soccer kids keep their balls on that field. Happe: Rod, I had a couple quick comments. I want to thank you for doing all that legwork. Thank you for walking around and getting a sampling. As far as the tennis court question, do you have opposite, I mean was there an equal number of people that were saying don't put tennis courts in? Pam Joe: That's everybody I got to...everybody was totally... Like I said, I could probably take another day and get the rest of them. Happe: Okay. Thank you for doing that too. I like the natural screen idea. I'm wondering if a berm extending down through that actual length in front of the pond might be a cost effective option. Maybe it's a combination there. Maybe it's a berm with some brush or some trees or. Hoffman: A berm would probably..-.the original landscaping that's already there. We can look at that. Happe: Okay. As it pertains to the parking question, do we complete or has there been a parking needs analysis done on a park like this so we know at full build-out in 2025 when this park is being fully utilized, is there a needs analysis as such done to determine how many parking spaces we need to support the park? Hoffman: Prior to it's construction. Parking is, parking is available is designed appropriate to the facilities that are there during peak use hours. Then there's these overlaps and that's where we get into the, and that's a scheduling issue and to schedule the soccer association, it's important... Saturday soccer times and...and when parents bring 2 cars to the field, 4 different grandparents... Kelly: And you know on Greenview, which is the road that almost parallels the path, they do park up and down that road on Saturdays and Sundays for the soccer games. Some parents have discovered the quick access right onto the fields. I know that's aggravated some of the homeowners because people have talked to me in front of their homes. It' s not the same car all day but it's rotating in and out and that's becoming more and more of an issue as this is happening more and more. Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 · Happe: That's all the comments I have. Kelly: ...we are hopefully in the fall we're going to have a link path. Right now there's a path that goes down 101 towards Bandimere and it stops at Chanhassen Hills. 'In the late summer or fall. Actually it's going to be fall because it's late summer already. They're going to continue that path from where it stops down 101 and it's going to cross over behind and it will actually end at the entrance of Bandimere Park .... There was a neighbor who works in the library and she wasn't aware of it. I told her about the plan. It's just more paths like that, I guess... Hoffman: ...aerial I can point out the location designated for tennis courts just behind this ballfield right here. And one of the concerns with the master planning for Bandimere Park was that tennis courts were not a priority, and since they were not a priority they did not get one of the key locations adjacent to parking. And so it's quite a walk from the parking lot to this location. And so the justification of those tennis courts becomes more difficult because of that situation. Stolar: Todd, would that also be considered a temporary structure because of the pipeline? Hoffman: The tennis courts, we can build a tennis court on top of it. Likewise, our choice would not be to do it. I don't believe that... Franks: Paula? Atkins: No. Franks: Thank you again for coming. Well it appears to me there's no one else in the audience here for visitor presentation. We'll move onto our next agenda item which is approval of the minutes dated June 25, 2002. Are there any commissioners with comments with regards to the minutes? APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Spizale moved, O'Shea seconded to approve the minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated June 25, 2002 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONCEPTUAL PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT (PUD) OF 88.5 ACRES OF PROPERTY FOR 540 UNITS ZONED AGRICULTURAL ESTATE~ TONY AND LUIGI ,BERNARDI. TOWN AND COUNTRY HOMES. Hoffman: Thanks Chair Franks, members of the commission. We toured the property this evening just to get an on the site visual of the property that is being proposed for development. I call it the last flat piece of property in southern Chanhassen. It's a good piece of property for development. It connects into some properties to the east. Sever Peterson property. There also is a influence by the Bluff Creek corridor in the Bluff Creek area. It's separated by the bluff there in the 2005 area development. This is really the south half of that. South of Bluff Creek. And then we have the north half which is generally...to be the Degler property. First we will talk about that tonight or conceptually how does this particular piece of property fit into the other properties to the east. Not only the Peterson, but then the Jeurissen property there as well. So transportation is a big issue for the commission. Pedestrian transportation. Where these roadways go. How they cross the creek corridor. As we stood out there this evening it got us wondering how we're going to get people across Audubon Road. The traffic north and south in this location is a very busy street. There was a lot of talk about the recreational needs of these Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 folks. Our comprehensive plan specifies that everyone will have a neighborhood park facility within one-half mile of their front door. Obviously 540 units, we're going to have a need for some park areas. A general...75 people so we start to take a look at that compulation and we start to get an idea of the size of the facility that we'll see. Generally a public facility, we do not accept public areas any smaller than 5 acres in neighborhood parks simply because we don't want to maintain...small park locations. So we'll talk about it. Axe there going to be association amenities here or is that...public facilities on this property or on adjoining properties. Just start the conversation and then as Town and Country moves through their development process we'll get back together with them and talk more specifically about the recommendations that you would have concerning those issues. And we have Krista Flemming and ICrista Novack...and we'll let them start with their presentation. Krista Flemming: Good evening and thank you Todd for the introduction. Again my name is Krista Flemming and I'm with Town and Country Homes. I'm the Project Manager in the land development department and I have Krista Novack with me. She is the Assistant Project Manager. And Todd has really kind of wrapped it all up in a nutshell. We're here tonight to look at the Bernardi property in particular, but also the entire area because this area as I'm sure you're well aware, is going to be brought into the MUSA line in 2005 and we just happen to be the first parcel, the first group that's coming forward to kind of get everybody's suggestions and get everybody thinking about what's going to happen, not only for this area, this parcel, but for the whole area. This map represents an aerial view of showing the Berna~di parcel here. Audubon, Lyman and this red area through here represents the current alignment shown for the Highway 312/212 corridor. That would come through so you can get an idea approximately to the existing neighborhoods that are in this area, and the existing farms that are in the area, as well as the road system so it gives you a little bit of a, kind of an idea of where that' s going. At this point we have been meeting diligently with the community development staff and some of the engineering staff just to take a look at how the comprehensive plan is involved with this property, as well as the entire area. I mean had a very nice neighborhood meeting with all of these property owners put on by Kate Aanenson, and also the City Engineer was also pre~ent and just took at look at the fact that this area's going to develop sometime and what are their feelings on different connections. Different, where we actually have to put some of the sewer and water and things like that to deal with the topography out here and just starting to get thoughts and really get people thinking about it so that when 2005 comes, which is amazingly right around the corner, we're not asking those questions there. We're planning ahead. This project here, this concept plan just focusing on the Bernardi property, is a very general layout that we've put together. It identifies nodes of multi- family, living styles with main connections. Todd had actually pointed out where there's an existing connection that goes into a neighborhood here I believe in Chaska, and logically there's going to, that's going to be one of the locations where it's going to be the main access into this property. I don't know what is planned for any type of signalization or anything on this road. That's something that again the engineering staff and planning staff are working with the county to try to take a look at what needs to happen with these connections. But as you can see, there's going to need to be some type of connection that goes into this property adjacent to us, and then up into these properties. As far as the Park and Rec's concerns within the Bernardi property, what we've identified is first of all the overlay district, in these green areas here and we went out on the site and walked it with staff to take a look at those areas and make sure they're supposed to be in the bluff overlay district. And they are, and we're adhering to a lot of the different requirements of the overlay district, but we also found out that there is some high upland in some of these areas that could technically be developed. Or given a density transfer, something along those lines to preserve them as a whole. And so that's why we've designated them in green because we think with the steep slopes and the wooded areas, that those are really going to be some nice areas to preserve. There's a really nice wetland up in this area and just keeping those Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 intact. And then secondly, as far as the park concerns are addressed, we've identified as nodes of green spaces, and at this point we've just generally identified them as in some of these linkages to provide not only a nice access into the community as these connection points, but also visibility to the park area where people in this community may be wanting to use some of these areas and we really just generally identified them, and that's why we're here tonight. Just to get some more input from Park and Rec Board on trails and park areas. And then also to take a look at how, you know what preferences there are for park dedication and that type of thing. We have not specifically identified if we're going to have private or public areas. That's something we'd like to have more discussions on, and we're open to that but we also like to know how that fits with park dedication regulations and I know typically when you have private, and there's still park fees but when you have public, sometimes there's the land in lieu of fees, that type of thing. So those are just things that we need to know to go forward and bring in a more detailed plan. So with that I guess I'll open myself up to questions and just listen to your discussion. Franks: Before we start, if it's okay Todd if you just want to give the quick run down on the parkland dedication or park fee scenario. Hoffman: We split it up into park and trail fees. And so our park fees are based on a per unit and our trail fees are one-third of the cost of the individual park fees. And they're dedicated funds that go for park development and trail development individually. In this area we generally we think about 10 percent of the land could be taken as a dedication for a public park. Park surface. Or again doing the calculations in reverse, which typically comes our very close is 1 acre per 75 people so we take the calculation of the number of residents that are going to be moving into this development. Plot that out with the 75 per acre and.., calculation. Many of the folks that are doing this type of development prefer to have an association type of facility. I'm not sure if that's your preference or not for management of their property in the future. In that case the city has allowed those private facilities to be developed, but then we've also required the park and trail dedication fees on top of that for use in other facilities throughout the community. In neighborhood park or community parks and our trail system. And so there could be a combination. It's generally just needs to be an arrangement between yourselves and the city on how you would like to see those developed. If it's a public amenity, we're going to want...see that with the development. If it's a private development, you have much more discretion where you want to put it and...locate that within your property. In general the park and trail fees of this project are right around...so that's the amount of dollars that we're talking when you start to calculate 540 units... Those are the dollars that we're talking. We simply want to make sure that there are amenities available for these folks that are significant enough to handle what is going to be a very large community in here, so that's the conversation that needs to continue. You can sit down with the staff and talk about it as well once we hear the preferences from the commission. The commission members...everyone's familiar with multi-family developments in this community and other communities they' ve lived in and we'll hear their opinions and get their thoughts. Krista Flemming: I had one question after listening to your explanation. In addition to the public, or neighborhood and private parks that the city wants to see within the development to meet the 1 per 75 people, that type of thing, are there any benefits to let' s say these areas that are nice wooded area that are designated dedicated to the city as opposed to just having an easement for protection over it? Are there any benefits to doing that? Is there any credit that's given for an open space value because there are some areas that are developable, and I guess I'm just trying to see if there's aside from just parks and actual activity spaces, is there a policy that the City of Chanhassen has on open space dedication? 10 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Hoffman: Sure. Those two areas are governed by the Bluff Creek Overlay, and so they're going to be dedicated as part of the Bluff Creek Overlay, and that takes precedence. And if there are areas in there that are developable, and you'd like to take the density transfer out, then you're gaining some use from them so yep, we will, you will not get credit for those as a part of the park dedication credits. Krista Flemming: Okay. Hoffman: If there's areas in there that are developable, let's say you identify 3 acres here but you want to take the density out, then you're still going to be governed by the Bluff Creek Overlay which says this area has been identified by the city as wanting to be preserved, but there may need to be some park dedication...because even though it's identified that you would like to have it preserved, you simply can't take that value away from...and so you take the transfer, the density transfer and then... Krista Flemming: I think that's my only question. One other piece of information is that, we have this property, the Bernardi property under contract. This one we're talking about tonight. We have also now entered into a contract with the Jeurissen property over here, and if it's appropriate tonight, I mean you're going to be looking at the whole area and we're talking about. I guess what I'm looking at is if there's any regional trails or any major parks that have been planned through a park plan or anything like that that needs to go just into this area that we need to try to provide connections to also that's all valid information. Hoffman: The major regional trail is along Bluff Creek. Right through the center of the creek. Krista Flemming: Right through the creek? Hoffman: Right through the center of the creek. That trail will come all the way down through Lyman, through the creek corridor, right through the Jeurissen property and...as well and down to Pioneer Trail. And so this is a major trail corridor and we want to see trails, sidewalks and trails on these major connection streets and then aligning...so there's a trail map that we provide you that will show those corridors, and then they'll also be shown in the Bluff Creek Corridor Study. The Bluff Creek Corridor Study goes into great explanation about what the City desires to see as far as amenities in the Bluff Creek corridor. Krista Flemming: Alright. Franks: If I can just have you stay a little more comfortable at the podium in case commissioners direct questions at you...bring it back to the commission for comments and questions. Paula, do you want to start? Atkins: I don't have anything at the moment. Franks: Well you let me know. Amy? O'Shea: Just one thing, you mentioned the other property you're possibly going to build on too. Do you know what type of homes, houses would be there? If it would be this same type of development or single family? Do you have any idea? Krista Flemming: We've just started our review process on that piece of property and we've been discussing some of it with Kate Aanenson and how it relates to the comprehensive guide plan and 11 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 right now it's either going to be a low or medium density residential. We don't know exactly at this point if it will be multiple or single family, but it will fit within the guide lines of the comprehensive plan. O'Shea: How many acres is that? Krista Flemming: The Jeurissen property or the Bernardi? O'Shea: No, the Jeurissen. Krista Flemming: The Jeurissen property is I believe 23 acres. O'Shea: That's all I have for fight now. Franks: One of the comments that I might have for you is, you'll probably find that this commission is going to make sure that if you build a private amenity project for the development, that those amenities be of sufficient caliber along with the quality to meet the needs of the residents that would be there. So we'd be considering active recreation amenities that would follow from young age to older age and not, and be a sufficient amount. So we've all had the opportunity to see the kind of classic townhome developments with a very inadequate totlot. I know we don't use that word anymore so I don't know, amenities space or amenity zone. Krista Hemming: I guess if you could give me an example of what those active amenities that you're talking about. Franks: Well we'd be looking at a neighborhood of 540 units, although it's a mixed housing development, it's going to be a neighborhood in and of itself. And if you were to visit some of the neighborhood parks in our community here you get a sense for the type of active recreation equipment that goes into the neighborhoods so. Playgrounds. ' Hoffman: Play fields. Franks: Basketball court. Krista Flemming: I guess what I'm trying to get a distinction between what we are kind of looking at right now, if that's the extent, or if it's something that's a little bit less formal. More you can go out and just have a touch football game or you can have your own little soccer game. You know it's not necessarily an actual, you know it's just an open space. Field of space or, and then also have a jungle gym for kids to play on and swings and that type of thing. Franks: Our typical neighborhood park combines both of those types of facilities together in the neighborhood park so space to play, open green space and then also equipment. Playground equipment. Play field equipment. Krista Flemming: Has the Park and Rec Board, or the City for that matter had a preference on either private or public facilities? One or the other. I know that if we would have private facilities it would be maintained by a homeowners association. That type of thing. And I guess as long as the city's maintaining it, we don't have a definite preference that way. So is there a policy that you guys have followed? 12 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: My personal philosophy, and we'll get different opinions as we work as a body and as a commission, is that the amenity exists for the residents. And it exists in an appropriate fashion. How's that for a nice, vague and general answer... Kfista Flemming: Well it basically means we need to either the city or the developer needs to provide something that's adequate for the area and as long as that's the case, there isn't really a preference as long as what's provided is nice. Franks: And I'm not directly aware of the formulas...but even for play gym equipment in the playground there's formulas for like the number of children and the size of the equipment. Krista Flemming: And I'm sure staff will be reviewing this along the way and giving us even more direction on it too. Hoffman: The location is also very important. The location that you have there are very nice for x~isual things type amenities. For gathering points. They would not be good selections for a gathering point. These associations would like to probably get together for a summer gathering and it would be nice to have a large green space with a shelter to get together for their association summer picnic, and one of those two locations would not be desirable for that so people...larger green space. It's a significant population that's going to go here and in general if we were looking at a public park we would be looking at probably 5 acres of property out of there. If you do a private amenity you probably can do that on less acres than that so it might be to your benefit as you start to study this, to look at a private amenity...but we still want it to be sufficient to allow for...open space in what will be a fairly high density neighborhood so people can get out and walk around and... Franks: The other last comment that I would have is, you have the two areas set aside as part of the overlay district. I know some of the larger, the high density public developments have attempted to, at least through the use of view sheds out there. Putting in the units to create more of a contiguous feel for the separated green space areas and so here we have rows and housing kind of breaking out the~ upper and lower lands that are set aside instead of creating a corridor that connects the two. Krista Flemming: I understand what you're saying. Having a more...tries to blend both of them together. Franks: Right. And what that also gives the sense that this area is much larger than two separated green space areas you actually connect them. Krista Flemming: One of the features with this property, and I understand exactly where you're coming from in trying to keep some type of green space connection through here. These areas, when we walk the site, even though it looks really flat, it really isn't. Hoffman: You can't see one from the other. Krista Flemming: No, and I mean from the aerials and the topography we looked at, it was so different from actually walking out there and you get here and it's just, it just drops off. It's so drastic so these areas are very defined and we'll just have to take a look at how we kind of try to work with our development to see what we can do to even, if nothing else, we can't get something to go all the way across to blend into it somehow. Maybe your neighborhood park areas. We'll need to take a look at that. 13 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 . Hoffman: Yeah, your last comment about, if there is a neighborhood amenity, having this overlook that north area would be very nice. So then you get the feeling as you start in here in this little carved out area and then look out over the top of these trees so that's a nice concept. These two are so far separated that it may be difficult to make that connection in this... Any information that you have on the property that's in the center...? Krista Flemming: This one right here? No. At the neighborhood meeting they did attend and they seemed to be quite content living there and although we are attempting to try to talk to all the neighbors as well as many other developers. We have been attempting to talk to them and at this point they haven't been too interested but it would be, we feel, it would be in their best interest to not get developed around. To have something that would be more contiguous but it's ultimately up to them. We are continuing to inform them of what's happening so they know that this development will go around them, although this area will be preserved so it will probably seem larger but for their property values it's kind of comes down to what they value the most. Happe: Appreciate you coming in and getting a jump on this. I think it's going to make us, it's going to trigger us to think about Todd, maybe not only the development that they're working on but as Krista said, tying into some of those other areas too. Some of the things that we can take a look at are, if there are some ideal locations for maybe a larger community park to go in and tie everything together. I just appreciate your thought process and getting us thinking along those lines. Keeping in mind too that as you earmark those, a couple possible locations, that we'll get, you mentioned that that may be draw for some of those other areas that are yet to be developed and just as long as we remind ourselves that the basic guideline is that, that would have impact on if they're within half a mile of those additional developments or those additional houses that go in so, but I appreciate your time and I appreciate you getting a jump on this with us. Spizale: Just for general information. What are the price ranges of the townhouses and condominiums? Do they have any idea what they're going to ~ost? Krista Flemming: Well at this point in time, which is 3 years out, we've identified some general housing types as some back to back multiple family. Back to back product of a walkout, lookout. Possibly a smaller, detached single family. Empty nester type product and right now we have quite affordable products actually. We are building those products in Plymouth and Shakopee, Lakeville and the base prices of those products are starting from $150 for some of the different priced ones. $150 to $170 and then going up to whatever people choose for options. Over $200,000 easily...bumped up and improved and we hope to still maintain somewhat of affordability for 3 years from now and that' s one of our goals with our company is to keep us within that range, but we also realize that some of the cities like to see some architecture spruced up and really take a look at some more of the amenities and that type of thing which brings the cost up a little bit. So we try to provide, especially in an area this large, provide variety of housing ranges so people can not only start off with one place but they maybe can move up to another area or you get a mixture of income levels and that type of thing within an entire neighborhood. Spizale: Okay, thank you. That's all I've got. Franks: Paula? Atkins: No, that's what I was going to ask. What Jack just did. 14 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: Any other comments or questions from commissioners? Well I also appreciate you coming down at this stage in the game to let us provide you with some of our feedback initially and it's a beautiful piece of property and I think we're all going to be excited to see what you're able to make of it. So we'll probably be seeing you again... Krista Flemming: You probably will. Franks: ...look forward to doing that. Todd, is there anything else from you? Hoffman: No. Franks: Thank you. RECREATION PROGRAMS: 2002 4TM OF JULY CELEBRATION EVALUATION. Hoen: Thank you Chair Franks and the commission. First of all I'd like to thank you all for volunteering. Helping with our events. I hope you all came away with a positive experience. Just going to move down the line and kind of recap the events. Start off with the kiddie parade. We had approximately 400 to 500 kids participate in this event. Each year it keeps growing. It's amazing how many kids we get out for this. Kellie Makela is our playground direct, director of the playground staff and organized...did a great job with that. We got some assistance from the Chan Fire Department and the Carver County Sheriff' s Department. Make sure that we had a safe route for all the kids and parents that were involved. The trade fair, the Chanhassen Chamber of Commerce had 39 participants this year. Atkins: Is that down? It seemed smaller this year. Hoen: For the trade fair? Atkins: Yes. Hoen: I believe last year they had 37 or 38 so it was right in line. Atkins: Maybe it was just put together more conveniently. Hoen: Spread out a little bit more...this year so definitely a lot more room. They had 39 participants this year and they did a great job...worked out great having their own tent. Kaptain Kirby train rides once again was very popular. Lines for the Kaptain Kirby train rides once again this year so it's a very popular attraction for the kids. Senior center open house. From what I've heard that went over very well as well. Face painting was once again popular. The city retains 20 percent of the total gross incomes that they receive from that. Next to carnival games. Once again they were a huge hit this year. The playground staff brought some volunteers to help organize and run those games. They did a good job with that. Medicine Show, kind of a fun group. Kind of walks around and gets the crowd involved. The crowd definitely enjoys seeing them. Water wars once again was extremely busy on July 3rd. We may even want to look at possibly getting... 4~' of July down at Lake Ann, we weren't quite as busy for some reason. Not sure what that was. Typically they're just as busy on the 4~ of July as they are on the 3rd of July... We walk away with 15 percent of the total of their two day sales. Speedway racing. Very popular attraction as well. Lines for that, and for that we also get 15 percent of their total sales. Food and beer gardens. Overall the food vendors had a very successful night and we did actually look at adding some additional food vendors last year. Or next year, as you all saw the lines were 15 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 quite long. Some of the food vendors we do have some extra room for expansion for food vendors for next year so. The more reports I've gotten from the vendors they enjoy our events. Some of them ask that they be invited back for next year.., or any other events going on in the city throughout...participate in so it sounds like they were all happy with the event. Krush, which is a local band that warmed up and played before CBO did a great job. This year for the first year they were on the, they got to use the main stage. They just ate that up. They thought that was great so... Atkins: I heard comments from some people, residents of Chan who are my parents age, who like to hang around up there for several hours on that evening and they thought that Krush was way too loud and they could not carry on a conversation. And I love Krush. I mean they're kid's friends and I think they're great but they're really, they really were loud and they played for a long time and some people go up there to have dinner and sit around and they don't stay for Casablanca. I remember when Krush played outside last year maybe and that wasn't very pleasant for them I know. It was hot and they had no shade so it is nice that they can use the main stage but maybe they should play a little earlier and maybe shorten it up a little bit. Stolar: I think one of the other things was, you couldn't sit in the shade unless you were in the tent...If there was another tent, then you could sit next to them and not have the direct sound on you ....it's not just, with our little kids we couldn't go in the tent because it was too loud for them. Atkins: Really loud, and I know the teens enjoy it but it's hard on other people so that's something to consider. Hoen: Appreciate the input. And this year they actually got to use the staging for free, complimentary with Festival Sound Lighting agreed to let the boys use the staging for free so there was no additional cost for that. If we want to look at that again next year, there would be some fees involved with that so we'll take a look at that for next year. Tae Kwon Do demo. Jeff Engel and his staff provided our audience with an entertaining demonstration. It's a great opportunity for the city to promote our Tae Kwon Do program that we have out at the Rec Center. Jeff is the main instructor...for the Tae Kwon Do programs that we have out there. Pony rides, once again very popular. Lines for that as well .... growing we may have to possibly look at getting a second pony ring for that next year so. The basketball free throw shooting contest once again was very popular. We had more than 40 participants in that. We gave away trophies and basketballs to the winners in 5 different age groups. The playground staff ran and organized that. Did a great job with that. Chalk It Up contest was very successful. We had about 50-55 participants in that. It was kind of neat walking around and seeing some of the designs that people came up with. Did a really good job. And two categories for that. Most creative and most difficult. Susan Marek...the judge of that. She does a good job of that. Last but not least on the 3ra of July is the street dance with CBO...great performance. Everybody really enjoys the show that they put on. Move onto the 4t~ of July. Franks: Have you booked them for next year? Hoen: I have not yet. Hoffman: They want to come back... Hoen: CBO plays at other places and they don't have a tent set up for them. They just really appreciate the safety of a tent so... Moving onto July 4t~. Starting out with the adult fishing 16 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 contest. We had 44 participants this year. Entry fee for that was $10 which includes the participant going away with a door prize. I would definitely recommend holding the fishing contest again next year. It gives the adult population something to participate in. Kids fishing contest. We had a total of 75 kids participate in the festival this year, which is down a little bit from last year. All kids received a grab bag with fishing items. Also gave away trophies and other door prizes to the winners of largest fish, longest fish, smallest fish in two different age categories. Sand sculpture contest was amazing some of these, how creative some of these people are. Sculptures were amazing. The contest was run and judged by Kellie Makela and the rest of the playground staff. They did a good job judging those. It's a fun activity to add to the celebration and I would recommend holding it again next year. Treasure hunt. An adult found the medallion at approximately 11:30 after the second clue was given. I'm not sure how they found it so quickly but, it's an easy event so. Stolar: Has there been an investigation? Hoen: We may have to... Gina Carlson from our office...she does a great job with that so she does a really nice job. Hula hoop and limbo contest. With that we really had a difficult time getting people to participate in it. I think by that time of day people are kind of just hanging out on the beach. They don't want to get up and hula hoop and whatever so we really had a tough time finding people. Going up and down the beach...trying to get people to participate and we just didn't have any success with that so we ended up a lot of times going with just a couple people or have the playground leaders.., so that may be an event we want to look at next year if we want to hold it or not. Fireworks. Once again Melrose Pyrotechnics did our show for us. Did a wonderful job. My recommendation would be that we invite them back again for next year. Are there any questions that the commission has at this time? Franks: Thanks Corey. Let's just open it up for comments. Jack, do you want to start? Spizale: Ah let's see. I think I went to quite a few of these different things that you had and I enjoyed everything that was there. I agree with you. I think I brought it up before that we do need more food vendors. I think we're aware of that. I think that's a good recommendation. I thought the fireworks were fantastic, as always. Very, very good. Just one question. What does this cost us to put on and what do we make? Do we make anything on it or, I know we've got different percentages of different things. Is that totaled yet, or do we know those figures? Hoen: It' s not totaled yet but a lot of our expenses are coming through our sponsorship funds that we get from different sponsors throughout the city so, at this point I don't know exactly what are breaking point is. Spizale: So it's pretty close to a break even. Okay. The only other thing I had was on the t- shins. It seems to be a hard sell. Maybe we give some more thought to showing them better or doing something. I don't think we're selling very many t-shins that I could see, and maybe we should give some thought to some ideas of promoting them. I mean it's a little bit hard to sell them, kind of sitting folded and flat. Maybe next year, I'd volunteer to help you display them. How's that? Other than that I enjoyed it. I thought you guys did a fantastic job. Lot of fun. Hoffman: T-shin sales have gone a whole different direction with the involvement of the Chamber of this year and so we relinquished some of the control over that and they I believe...did not be as successful as they had hoped so they're going to be a whole lot of discussion between now and next year. 17 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Spizale: That's all I have. Happe: Corey, did you have an overall attendance? Was it up? Was it down? Do we know? Do we track it? Hoen: 3ra of July I'd say definitely up. I would say somewhere between 3,000-4,000 people for the 3~ of July. 4th of July, probably right around average I guess. Happe: Okay. Just one comment. It was nice, or at least I haven't heard of any negative feedback from loosing the space where the new library is going and locating to the back. I really appreciate the Park and Rec. I saw all the clean-up that went into the efforts, when was that? The night of the 3rd after the concerts. Your team really did an excellent job getting that place back in ship shape again. One of the questions that I was asked multiple times as I was working on the prize board was the proceeds that were being raised from those tickets. I assumed that they were going to help offset some of the costs that the city had to put on the event, but maybe if there was even a little sign that just said proceeds from this are going to X, it would give people a little bit more understanding of what we're doing with that. And then I know that as we take a look at what's happening next year, there's been some concept of maybe you being able to use the tent and facilities when Todd? Later on the 4~ for the fireworks. Hoffman: The 4~. After the parade. Happe: After the parade and before the fireworks and I think that would be fun to explore some great ways to keep that...activity happening. And I guess my only caution in that regard is, I wouldn't necessarily be a big fan of that including an expansion of the beer sales, just to keep the focus on the kids and the fun family excitement of that time so, those are my thoughts. Stolar: Just a couple of quick comments. Corey, I think you did a great job and I agree with Dave's comments. You have to clean up afterwards. You should be commended for that and your team and whoever else participated in that. I think that's wonderful. It was a great event my first year attending it and it was excellent. I made one comment about a little bit more shade. It was a little difficult with the kids during the early afternoon part, and maybe even shade the other side of the people standing in the lines for all of the free games and just a place to sit out there closer to their kids when they're doing that. More games are fun. This year, we used to do events like this a long time ago and we had a dunking tent, and I tell you, there's nothing better. I did it at college. There was nothing better than getting the college administrators to sit in the dunking tents, former vice president wore his suit and he auctioned off, all this for charity. We auctioned off the first ball to throw while he was in his suit, but something like that might be a fun thing to get city officials involved. Get Todd in there. Get volunteers to go in. Hoffman: We've had them before. The biggest issue is liability. Stolar: Liability, yeah. Hoffman: Yeah, so we've had them. Stolar: Those are fun though. I would sit in it... And then from the food perspective. We did walk around a little bit and we weren't all the way over by the street by Byerly's, but it didn't look like it was as much a dinner type for a kid. I think later on I found there was a hot dog thing there. I was looking at tacos and all that when you start...wider variety but it was a wonderful event. Didn't make it to the 4th because we were all tired out from the 3~. 18 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Kelly: I thought it was a lot of fun. The only comment I heard from people was about the parade. The parade was really good when...and I think I may have brought this up last time. Has anybody.., maybe having an early parade and then maybe eliminating some of the events. Maybe the fishing contest which is, you can have it not maybe the day. You may get more attendance because then people...4th of July parties in the afternoon... Hoffman: The decision on the time was based on the Delano parade and bringing the Waconia band from the Delano parade. That's the sole decision on why this parade is at 2:30. Kelly: For the band. Hoffman: So if you want to cut out the Waconia marching band, you can do that. Kelly: Does Chaska have a band? Hoffman: No. Kelly: It's just a comment that people have said. By then it's getting hot. Hoffman: It was hot and it' s been a problem for that parade in at least one of the past years. The parade is an independent function of the parade committee and so we can talk with them about that and, but they're the deciding factor in when it takes place. Kelly: That's it. Franks: Thanks. Amy. O'Shea: Again I want to reiterate the, how much everyone that I talked to appreciated the work that went into the parade. I think it's phenomenal to pull something off like that. To the public there were no glitches. I'm sure...the people that were participating weren't aware of them so, but huge thanks. It's just a phenomenal thing. I think, you know to cut down, if there's any way to cut down on the lines. If you can add more games, a few more rides. Expand the type of things you do. I think they're so well received so looking at that is one of your suggestions already. The only other thing, could you pass on, some of the comments I heard about the parade which could be passed onto the committee. It seemed just so political .... of people running for office that you know, people were sort of joking about it was a political parade. They'd love to see more bands. I don't know how easy that is or easy to do, and a bunch of people, and they don't even ride Harley's, I guess in the past you've had Harley riders. So you can, I don't know, but they loved that because...is the comments I heard about the parade so other than that, everybody who attended the 3rd and the 4th really didn't have any negative feedback. Positive and if there's a way to cut down on lines and expand, but that' s, people just love the 3ra and 4th so, thanks from everyone. That's all I have. Atkins: It was another good time this year. I had fun working. I had fun selling shirts. When they went down to 5 bucks, I sold a ton of them. Talked to lots of people and it was very successful I thought. And you heard my comments already. I spoke out of turn as to...about the Krush band, but I really think next year doing that band thing that Joe Scott was talking about really should be considered. I think it'd be a lot of fun. Yeah, on the 4th. Right after the parade. And that's all for me. Kelly: Were there name tags out there for people that were volunteering? 19 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Stolar: ...especially like we were doing the raffle, and it said maybe Park and Rec Commission to continue with the tent... Happe: Saw a bunch of people that said they were Jan Lash. Did we donate the space for the booth for the...family for the Miracles for Mitch tent that was up? That Was really neat. Hoffman: Amy, responding to your comments. The parade, that committee works very hard. They're a small committee and what their response is going to be is that this thing is it comes to us... so if your neighbors want these things, they have to inspire the people in this community to bring them out in the parade. The parade committee, more bands. They're paying these bands to come to town and so if you think of a community parade, a community parade is a community parade because of all the people that are involved in these things in town and they get them forward and so they have very little control over what the outcome is. They take what they can get because that's what they're looking for. And the food lines and the game lines. We always try to get more, but again it's difficult. It's a community event and we have very few organizations that want to participate because of scheduling and it's the 4th of July and so we end up hiring out these activities. These people want to make money and if they don't think that they're going to have a line and they're going to do business, then they don't want to show up. If they show up and the lines are too short and there's too many people, then they say...next year so it's a very fine line between servicing the people and having these vendors make money. Most of these people are doing it as a for profit, and there are some, Boy Scouts and who else was there? Girl Scouts and the Chamber did the ice cream sale, and so we need to cough up as a community, as a commission those people who would help out the festival. Get out there. Talk it up. Tell the, all the organizations in town that let's be a part of it. We've always advocated for that. The Rotary. The Lions made a mistake long ago when they split the beer and food sales and the Lions took the food and the Rotary took the beer so. The Rotary is very happy with the beer sales and so they do that and the food is, you know, it's now changed and evolved and now it's these private vendors and the Cub Scouts and those people so it's a real difficult coordination. I told Corey that he did a bang up job because this thing, it was the most successful 4th of July that I've ever experienced in the time that I've been here, and there's a letter of commendation in your packet, but there's 25 others that are not in there and you'll see the next time around. I just think our staff did a wonderful job. The commission, you were all there and you're all doing your part to make this a community celebration and that's why the people respond. It truly is the biggest night in Chanhassen and we just need to work together to continue to boost that participation and... Franks: I would agree too. Of all the celebrations that I've attended, I thought this was the most successful. I love showing off City Center Park. An event like this, it just felt great. All the planning that went into that park and to use it, the whole community there. Just perfect. A couple of comments for you from my perspective. One, is to look at the hours that the trade fair tent is open and the kiddie parade concludes. So what happens is the parents are all getting done with the kid parade and want to get to the trade fair, and it's closing up. So even shifting one event or the other in some direction I think would be really helpful because there were a lot of frustrated stroller pushers. Hoen: Is the schedule that, isn't there time for those people to get into that? Franks: Right at the end. Hoffman: It's a half hour. 20 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: But I know like most of our stuff was gone already by then and it just, some of the vendors were packing up and I heard a number of comments that hey, you know. We were at the kiddie parade and everything's shut down. Hoffman: Good suggestion. Franks: The other thing was, the economy of scale here. Exactly what you're talking about, about finding that balance between the vendors being satisfied and the customers being satisfied. And I think we need to keep working on that. My personal feeling was that, I heard comments about the food lines being long, but they seemed to move unlike other years so they were long lines but things were moving. Hoffman: We've had it twice... Franks: Yeah, and so from my perspective I thought the food issue was okay. We should look at bringing more people in. I agree about easier access. Child friendly food. Stuff you can get for your kids quickly. If we can work on that. But the thing about the lines that looked problematic to me were the kids games, pony rides, Kaptain Kirby because those poor kids were standing out there in that sun and I saw parents like come on. You know daddy will stand in line for you and like no, not going to have it. We need to for sure, if we're going to have pony rides, you've got to have 2 rings going. I mean we almost have to do these kinds of things for the kids. Like the games, you could double each game I think. The problem is finding the staff I imagine. Hoffman: Finding the people to do it. Franks: That's what I mean. Finding the people to do it. Hoffman: And we also, we can study the economics. Right now we provide them for free. If we do not pay them, an individual needs to pay $4.00 to get your kid on that horse, the lines are going to go down and so that's a study of how do you present these events to the population. Kelly: Kaptain Kirby, I know that line...that line went very quickly. Happe: 4 bucks a pony ride? Hoffman: Well if we brought it back and said you know, what do you want to charge kids to... Franks: ...rides were just great. That was cool. Had a lot of positive comments about that. Another thing. Can kids register for the fishing contest on the 4t~? Hoen: Kids, yes. Franks: Okay. Now one thing that we might want to do is that Park and Rec has a table in the trade fair tent, is considering offering registration for kids, for the fishing contest there at the table. And maybe putting a sign up, and then I don't know. Adults were already supposed to have been registered but just really for the kids because then we've got people coming through there seeing that. You know they thought they were...events and whoa, kids fishing contest. Where can I sign up? I agree with Paula about Krush being kind of loud. This is not a teen event. This is a whole family event. I think it's great that they're there playing and if you can sell them on if they come back, turn the volume down a little bit and cutting their sets a little shorter. 21 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 They'll still get the same exposure. Six. The hula hoop contest. That's always been hard to get people to participate. It's a little, bit tough. Hoffman: In the olden days there was a crowd at the beach and that crowd did everything. The park activities have grown and it's just, it's a whole different complex of group down there that's just not interested in that. Franks: And I agree about stopping turning on Audubon after the fireworks. Make them go to Powers and Galpin. Hoffman: 25 minutes the park was empty. Franks: You know that was just great. And the signs are looking a little tired. They do the job but they've just been out in the weather. I don't know if you can spruce them up or we need new ones. Hoffman: We talked about that. Franks: Oh you did, okay. Great. And the other thing Todd I'm wondering if it can be put together to the park and rec staff as well as the maintenance staff from the commission is our thanks for just a fantastic job well done... Don't give up. There's a vendor out there. Hoffman: We're going to have to take some... Franks: I don't know, we're going to do it. Hoffman: I'll say road trips to Kansas. Let's go... Wherever the carni's are, we're going to see them. We actually need to book them for 2004. Franks: I imagine, but you know if we're going to do it, at least getting on a list. My understanding is there's not a lot of availability. They're all pretty well booked up but there's got to be some kind of list you get on so when your turn' s up, at least you have a shot. Hoffman: The ones that nobody wants are available. Franks: Great. Anything else? SELF SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: FALL ADULT SOFTBALL. Franks: Alright, let's move onto a nice, quick report on the self supporting programs, fall adult softball. And I can guarantee you Corey that we've all read your very thorough memo. Hoffman: Jerry. Franks: Jerry's memo. Hoen: Chanhassen once again is going to be offering men's softball league at Lake Ann Park. The league will run for 6 weeks on Thursdays starting August 15. The league will play double headers. Each night they'll play a double header. Games will be a 55 minute time limit. The team with the best overall record will receive a fall state tournament berth. Fall league kind of offers a more relaxed atmosphere I guess than the summer. It's a little bit more, not quite as 22 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 competitive I guess as the summer league so and Jerry's already receiving phone calls in teams who are interested in playing this fall. Franks: It's great to see that there's continued interest. Any commission members with comments on the adult fall softball. Questions? E-mail them to Corey, or I mean Jerry. Sorry Jerry. Alright. Thank you. Let's move on to added number 6 under reports will be a discussion of points to go over with the joint commission/council meeting. Todd, can we have the date for that meeting again please. Hoffman: September 30t~. Franks: Do we have a time yet? Hoffman: I believe it's 8:00 or 9:00. Franks: I'd just like to open it up and hear from commissioners about some of the things that you'd like to discuss with the council. These meetings have a tendency to go much faster than you anticipate and the ability to get to all of the items that we want for discussion, it just usually doesn't happen. The council will cover some items that they wish to discuss with us as well so I can come up with four but I'd really like to make sure that we have somebody give our top couple of items that we're all going to be able to converse about at the meeting so. One that comes to my mind, again just to open the discussion is the recreation center. Hoffman: We've been titling it the community center...confusion with the existing facility. Happe: Did we complete all of our tasks that were assigned to us for their request for information? We've done everything that they've asked us to do for this item? Hoffman: Right. The responses will all be distributed. Assembled and distributed back to the City Council I believe it's on August 12th or 13th. And then they will take action from there. The people that are responding'are very enthusiastic. Talked to a variety of the people on the list already. The medical providers doing health prevention, sports medicine, are about some of the most enthusiastic. Those people would just love to be located with this facility and pay for it's construction and pay... And Lifetime is very interested. They would like to have a tour with the Park Commission and City Council of their recently opened Savage facility and they also have one in Champlin. They're two communities that are pretty similar to us. Franks: I think it'd be helpful for us, at least at that point...pass on our information obviously by then is to talk about direction for the commission on this project. It's probably the biggest project that we'll be looking at. And the second issue that comes to my mind is talking off Glenn or some of your comments at an earlier meeting about funding and priorities and placement versus acquisition and development. Developing a system for replacing equipment and the thought that the designation between park development fees and how those are used and where we place the funding for current amenities we'll call them. Happe: The Lake Ann road being a model of that discussion or? Franks: Well I think that's one of the prime examples, yeah. That'd certainly be an example that we could use to illustrate the point. 23 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Stolar: And question for Lake Ann. Do we want to have them consider that a city issue versus a park issue? Then in addition, how we do maintenance on park facilities. Franks: My feeling is that these are the types of, this type of philosophy or kind of thinking is really, does not really come directly to the consciousness of the council yet because we've not necessarily had to face these kinds of decisions and so those of us with some knowledge of the area of parks and recreation, I really think it's important that we provide the service to the council to bring this really to their attention so they can take a look at it. Offer some direction. Those are just my two. I'm sure there's a lot more. Happe: Will we talk through the entire 5 year financial plan that we're putting together at that time or? Hoffman: Separate discussion. That will take going through it item by item. They'll be talking about the general funding philosophies. This is the time for big picture. Brainstorm about, in order to do your job you want to understand where they're at on issues and so it's not unfair to ask a variety of questions just you know thumbs up, thumbs down. And council is going through a financial planning process with Ehlers and Associates and so that will be, they can touch on that during the funding priorities. It will take a year and go through that process. They're talking much more about outcome based budgeting rather than the input. Do you have a comment Rod? Franks: No. I'm going to force the issue here to my fellow commissioners anyway. What are some of the other things that are on your mind? Kelly: Talking about a high school. Is that something that would affect the commission? Franks: That's great. And the idea of a cooperative effort in the lines of Bluff Creek Elementary or joining with the school district in the creation of a high school and park amenities. Hoffman: That's a huge deal for us because as a staff we've started to take the position that this city will not build another Bandimere or Lake Ann Park in this community. The next athletic field complex will be with the school and so, I think I have the count right. Eight schools in District 112 in Chaska and two in Chanhassen, and so our citizens are paying a heavy price for not having facilities, green space athletic facilities associated with those schools not being in this city. And so in essence our tax money, our tax dollars are going to Chaska to support green space in their communities which our residents do not have access to. That's something that we should certainly all be very concerned about. Franks: And I'll request, anyone else have any other questions to e-mail Todd or if you have, do you have a current list of... Hoffman: It's going around. Franks: Now I have just a quick question on that. Does that violate any type of electronic open meeting laws to have emails and comments listed in emails from commission members? That go through the whole commission. Hoffman: I can't pose questions...forward information. You can forward information to me. You can forward information back to me I believe as long as it's approved and discussed at a future meeting. You can't discuss items... 24 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: It is appropriate then that we have some...e-mail you for distribution to the rest of us. Hoffman: Correct. As long as it's going on a future agenda. Franks: Well I'm looking at for our meeting with the Council on the 30th. And then I believe those can be presented at our August meeting. Let's do it that way then. Great. Alright, let's move on then to commission member committee reports. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. Franks: Tom, I believe you're the only one of the commission members that's on a committee. Anything to report about Dave Huffman? Kelly: September 14~. Start running. It will be a great event. The kids run now is on the... We have great entertainment lined up for the race...face painter and all that. Goody bags...so that's the issue now. Is there a route at the finish line that is safe enough for the kids to run so that's what we're tackling with right now. I'm a big proponent of the kids run but I just want everybody... Happe: Chairman Franks, are there additional committees that we should be attaching members to? Franks: Well I'm not aware. At one point we had the memorial park committee. Is that still in operation? I'm not aware. Hoffman: That's still in operation .... waiting for an appropriate time to bring that back and have a discussion on it. Franks: So at some point in the future there will be a ChanhasSen Memorial Park committee that will require representation from the commission. Hoffman: ...committees, they're created as we move along in our evolution and then people go out and volunteer for... COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Franks: Again, the park picnic feedback forms. The picnic shelter feedback forms just where they are every year? Fantastic facility. We need to get better control over the weather. Tell Jerry to work on that. Last comments about the bees so far... Hoffman: We have a new bee remedy which is a granular deterrent that goes in the bottom of the garbage cans which appears to be working. Franks: Any comments regarding the administrative packet? Kelly: I guess I want to comment on the e-mails that have been flying around about the tennis courts at the Roundhouse. It seems to me like everyone is for it except one person that wanted they money spent on renovating the round house. Did you ever respond to people individually or, 25 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 I mean what...is there money available for a tennis court? Is it even a good thing to do with the money that we do have available? Hoffman: Any person that forwards an e-mail and I let them know that I'm passing that along to the Park and Recreation Commission for your consideration and then youmake...budget conversations about the 5 year CIP. It's been out there for 2 double tennis courts. That's been in the master plan so it's just a matter of timing... Most people are not against spending money in their neighborhood park... It's up to you to decide if it's a wise investment with the resources that you have and if you want to make that recommendation to the City Council as part of the budgeting process so. It was interesting. We talked about it. We said you know, we really haven't heard about the tennis courts. The next day I received one phone call from an individual that was, called specifically on tennis courts. They were aware that they were scheduled to go in as part of the master plan. I shared with her the information...last night at the park board meeting they had talked about this and we had commented that we hadn't heard anything. Well...distributing information and so phone calls, letters, emails, they continue to come every day. I took another phone call today...here we are. We want a tennis court. And by the way what's up with the round house. That's the tag line on 75 percent of them. Franks: I think it's appropriate that we consider, at least that kind of project as we finalize our 5 year CIP. Hoffman: As far as the round house. Deanna is attempting to schedule another presentation with the City Council. Bunkelman. Neighborhood coordinator for the round house project. She was very excited. The son, the two sons of Ben Lane who is the individual that owned the property back in the late 40's when this structure was installed, they were in town for a class reunion and they stopped by the old property and they were very happy to see that the round house was still standing. They say Deanna's sign on the door and so they contacted her and they live in Florida now. They were small children, 8-10 years old when this thing went up and they remember where it came from so they have this history that they're starting to develop around the round house so she was very excited about that. I believe they've downsized the overall impact of the project to attempt to make it a little bit more affordable and then finally talking to the City Council about it. Franks: Is them a date set for that yet? Hoffman: No. Coming up probably in the next 30-45 days. Franks: Okay, thank you Todd. Any other discussion on the administrative packet? Seeing none, I'll entertain a motion to adjourn. Spizale moved, Kelly seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 26 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 27, 2002 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Amy O' Shea, Glenn Stolar, Paula Atkins, Tom Kelly and David Happe MEMBERS ABSENT: Jack Spizale STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent (The recording of this meeting was of poor quality and therefore some discussion is not complete.) APPROVAL OF AGENDA: As presented. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Happe moved, Stolar seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated July 23, 2002 as submitted. All voted in favor and the motion carried. REGIONAL TRAILS - 2002-2003 WINTER TRAIL ACTIVITIES PERMIT. Hoffman: Chair Franks, members of the commission. Each year the city has made application to utilize the South LRT as a snowmobile trail just for our section of the community. And then it does continue to the west into Chaska, but only along the ditch of State Highway 212. Many years ago Eden Prairie determined that snowmobiles were no longer going to be allowed in the city at all, and now they have what would be commonly referred to as a trailer ordinance where you need to take the snowmobile from the city and you put it on a trailer and you take it out a designated trail head or another location. In Chanhassen we still have a few minor trail connections, snowmobile trail connections. One along Highway 5. One going down south and connecting with Pioneer Trail, and then dumping down at the Pioneer bridge at the LRT and then continuing out to the west. The Snowmobile Club has always been interested in preserving that ability to snowmobile out of the city to the trails to the west as long as possible. To date this has not posed any great problems. If you think about it in the terms of once they get there, there' s really no problem. It' s getting there that causes the minor problems. If there are any existing in that area, and each year there certainly are property issues with people snowmobiling in property along the ditch line .... since '94 that this permit has been approved by Hennepin Parks, now Three Rivers Park District, and we have made application for it. The requirements are that we must sign it which the snowmobile club signs the trail and they have a list of the rules that apply to the trails as part of your packet. And then the city provides liability insurance which we do in two installs. One goes up the first...goes through the end of the season. The only other trail comment I'll make about snowmobiling and jet skiing in the city is, fortunately we live in climate that has seasons because just about the time complaints reach...snow melts, or the ice comes so Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 it's a tough issue to manage...offer that service we feel it's appropriate. With that it's recommended that the commission recommend to the City Council that they submit an application to the Hennepin Regional Park District, now Three River Park District for the use of the southern LRT trail located in Chanhassen as a designated snowmobile trail and that would be limited to 2002-2003 season. And I'll answer any questions the commission may have. Kelly: One question I've got. The connector comes on Pioneer Trail. I think last winter, that has been plowed...the snowmobiles get there. Hoffman: Probably in the opposite ditch line. The south ditch line. Kelly: Okay. Because I know I was thinking Eden Prairie either plowed that LRT trail north of Pioneer all last winter. Franks: Any other questions for staff? Stolar: What is the cost for that liability policy? Hoffman: Nothing. Stolar: Just part of the overall. Hoffman: It's a rider on the policy. O'Shea: I have one quick thing. That doesn't intersect with any trail, running or walking trail does it? Hoffman: No. O'Shea: There's no chance of a runner being. Hoffman: Well there's mixed use on there. There are certain people who choose to use it for walking. In fact there are quite a few people who choose to walk and somebody quoted the other day that it's such a great walking route because the snowmobiles pack it down. And there are some people that use it as cross country skiing, but the primary use of it, that would be walking dogs I believe. But the permit does not allow us to advertise for any other use... O'Shea: Do they know that risk? I'm just thinking that a snowmobile coming at 40 miles an hour and somebody skiing. Hoffman: They're skiing on a snowmobile trail. O'Shea: Okay. That would be my concern, even with signs there's a chance that somebody walking their dog or skiing will collide so that would be a concern. I don't know how you'd control that. Hoffman: It's been operating that way for what, 8 years now. Kelly: ...just announcing when it opens for a snowmobile trail and that will...in the paper. Hoffman: We can submit a. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Kelly: Rec notice or something. Franks: Do you include these type of things on the web site as well? Hoffman: We have the trail section on there. Franks: Yeah. On the new one. Ruegemer: This is the first winter we'll have it so. Franks: It's just something to consider if it fits in. Hoffman: I think a general observation...that this is a snowmobile trail and... Normally peak hours on there are weekends or evenings when... Franks: Any further questions for staff? Seeing that there' s no members of the audience here to address the commission on this item, we'll just bring it right back and are there any comments from commissioners? HapPe: I'm assuming that there weren't any complaints from last year that we need to be aware of as we get ready to approve this or recommend this application. Franks: We've had some comments about snowmobile usage within the city but not in accordance with this trail. Hoffman: Early on we had a lot of concern when this first was permitted and we had one property owner that had complaints, and.., were included in the packet. Franks: Any other commissioner comments? Alright, seeing none. Is there a motion? Happe: I move that the commission recommend to the City Council that they submit an application for the Suburban Hennepin Regional Park District for use of the southern LRT trail located in Chanhassen as the designated snowmobile trail for this coming winter. Franks: Is there a second? Kelly: Second. Happe moved, Kelly seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council submit an application to the Suburban Hennepin Regional Park District for use of the southern LRT trail located in Chanhassen as a designated snowmobile trail. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0. Franks: No Snowmobile Club members want to come in. Happe: Is that a pretty big club? Hoffman: Oh yeah. Happe: Who heads it up? Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Hoffman: They switch around. They meet at the.., occasionally we put it in your admin packet. REVIEW FINAL DRAFT, 2003 PARK AND TRAIL ACOUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM (CIP). Hoffman: Chair Franks, members of the commission. The report is broken into primary components, and then along with the... Just briefly what I attempted to present this evening is the results of the comments that were made at the June meeting by the commission and then making some switches. Basically one switch or some dollars that were allocated for the City Center Park for a park building, the Bandimere Park from staff' s directive is seeing a tremendous amount of use and the dollars that would be invested in such a building would be put to better use at Bandimere Park currently then at City Center Park. There is also as part of a reaching question of the final design of the road system and parking around City Hall as it has to do with the library, so putting a $275,000 structure in the middle of that plan when we're not sure what's going to happen, probably is premature at this time. The proposed 2003 park and trail CIP totals $893,000 which was an aggressive CIP for the commission. Of that amount $620,000 is proposed to be funded from park dedication fees. And then the remaining $273,000 is proposed to be part of... This allocation is...look at comparisons is $38,000 more than the funds annual income average for the past 4 years and I think the average annually $572,000 gives you one perspective. Second sense is if you want to compare this again to the current cash balance, which is about $1.8 million following the completion of the Highway 101 north trail which everyone is seeing is under construction. And the south 101 south trail, taxes earned in the park dedication...million dollars. And so you can start to do the math a variety of ways. You can take that whole million and take away the other $93,000, you're about emptying the piggy bank down to zero and then hopefully you're adding back in, in a year's income, approximately $500,000 back. So if you take a look at it in the vast, in that kind of frame, we're investing a good deal of money in park trail improvements and this year will be no exception .... park dedication fund at approximately a half a million dollars giving an average year in park dedication fund. And all the reasons are pretty basic. The 101 north trail is going to cost somewhere between a half a million and $700,000. Probably closer to a half a million dollars by the time it' s all said and done. And if you take that in one project. The 101 south trail and Highway 5 connector's our big project and a project that we're looking at this evening, a very aggressive project as well, especially the Bandimere Community Park. The other big item on the list, and then I'll go quickly through the rest is the Lake Ann Park and resurfacing of the parking lot and road. The original part of the park that you see out there today dates back to 1971 when that asphalt was put in. That's original. It's not been taken out. It's approximately 2 to 2 Va inches and it's completely failed in most areas and... alligatored to the point where it looks like it' s just chunks of asphalt put together in a random pattern. And then of course that foot path a 50/50 park dedication, 50 fund allocation for $240,000. We go back to the top and we have the Bandimere Community shelter, which would be a full service shelter of 275. The Chan Rec Center has a couple of allocations. The $15,000 carpet replacement is really untouchable. It needs to be...pulled out in the past few years and it's starting to give way at the entrance of the facility. Curry Farms Park and Meadow Green Park and the first two of what will need to be 10 playground replacements in the city of wood playgrounds. These are not wood...playgrounds, which would be redwood playgrounds which installation started in 1986 for those structures and ended at about 1994-1996. So for approximately a 10 year period of time we purchased only redwood...playground structures. And what we see in those is excessive wear in the play areas, and then what we would call...flaring where a child will get multiple small slivers in their hands or thighs generally. Sometimes in their forearms because of the wood and what we would do periodically is flip the wood over or flip the rounds over on the playground...and then sand them but it's a fairly intensive maintenance wise. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 These playgrounds also experience frost heaving where the frost grabs onto the poles and shoots them up and out of the ground in pressure ridge and come out...putting those back into the ground. Rethreading the posts and just spending a whole lot of labor on these types of playgrounds where...metal playgrounds and plastic, they are much more easily maintained. Meadow Green and Curry Farms, the reason the numbers are fairly high. Traditionally we think we can get a pretty nice playground for $30,000 but what we see today are those costs have risen closer to $40,000. And we also need to include approximately $10,000 and maybe a little more for the concrete border that we're putting around the playgrounds that you see at Bandimere. Sugarbush Park, Minnewashta Park and just an excellent way to install the border. No wood. No plastic. Plastic...frost heave out of the ground and break. For short term they're a good solution but long term they're not a good solution. We have some picnic table allocations... Skate park allocation. Two trail projects and we'll briefly go over those. Highway 41 connectors. What we have today is we've got a trail that comes down along Longacres for about a block and a half along Highway 41, and then just to the south of that Pulte Homes is...so we'll have two pieces of trail separated by about 3 blocks, 4 blocks that need to be connected so all those people can...running and walking route. It's in a state highway right-of-way. It's not on city property. It's not on Pulte property. So for you to make a connection...trail program so the city will need to pay for it .... similar to the trail we're doing right now on 101 and it will cost approximately $90,000 due to the terrain and the retaining walls that will need to go in to build these trails. The other connection are two that were not connected as a part of this year's 101 north trail. 101 noah trail will terminate at the noah end of 101 at Pleasant View Road and so I feel fairly strongly that we should take it from the noah side of Pleasant View down to the Near Mountain connection... There also is going to be continued noah... 101 down to Town Line Road to make a connection to the Minnetonka trail on Highway 101 noah and then up in the neighborhood along Town Line Road to allow for that...trail continue north. The final acquisition, a three year replacement program for trash receptacles...blue barrels to green barrels with the trash covers on them. And the tree planting, we continue to... commentary that is provided there...I would ask that the commission consider forwarding to the City Council. If you would like to make changes...discuss that prior to doing that. Franks: Thank you Todd. A couple of, I'll just start out with some of the questions that I have. First, I'm wondering why there was.., half and half on the Lake Ann parkway and what your reaction was to that? Hoffman: Well our S & L for the last, at least 3 years...solely out of the general fund has been turned away. So we've...$50,000 project which would be complete reconstruction and the installation of curbing and storm water management, down to an overlay which would most likely see a mat put over an overlay mat, and then asphalt material with no curb and gutter. One thing commissioners need to keep in mind is that I think the council is currently facing a million dollar overage without these numbers. Without, where is it? Franks: 273. Hoffman: Yep. And so they're less likely again...the testimony from staff on the budget numbers for the upcoming budget and they'll be considering sending those back...levy at their next City Council meeting. And then they're going to be wrestling with what are they going to do with the general fund. So we're going to shoot those numbers up there and ask for them. I recommend you shoot these numbers up and ask for them to be funded. I think it's...ask for the entire amount because they simply haven't been looked upon favorably in the past few years. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Franks: I can understand that. It's just that when I look at how you've broken down where you want the funds to come from, it seems pretty clear that it follows the philosophy that this commission had talked about earlier about new acquisitions being born principally out of the park dedication fund. Whereas maintenance and replacement are really looking at other funding source or like a general fund allocation for those. Hoffman: Yep. Franks: So that's why when I saw this 50/50, I was just like wondering what the sort of rationale was for that one but it sounded as if it was a big ticket item. That it may appear a little bit easier to swallow. My concern is that it be made clear that the philosophy is consistent with what we're trying to do and that it is the, if we approve this, the commission really endorsing, attempting to work in a cooperative way understanding the financial constraints that the council is under as well, and not that it's a statement about whenever these types of projects come up, that our philosophy of how they should be funded. Again following this pattern, I'm just wondering too, two things. This skate ramping, the new ramp coming out of the general fund and then going down to trash receptacles, which are new acquisitions as well for the parks, coming out of park dedication fund. Hoffman: The skate park...that should simply be park dedication... Franks: So that should be park dedication? Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I thought so too. Hoffman: And trash receptacles are, and you can go either way on that. Franks: I think that works for me anyway. Hoffman: The ones we have out there today were free. Franks: That's what I mean, the blue barrels. So this is essentially putting them in new for the first time. Okay. If you could for me just real briefly describe again how the 101 north connectors are fitting in. Hoffman: The trail plan? Franks: Yeah. How that effectively going north of Town Line. Hoffman: We're going to continue right ditch of 101 north right up to Town Line and make a connection that they have coming off of Minnetonka from...coming out of the north side. There may be a missing piece there in Minnetonka. Franks: Yeah. Right, that's what I'm, okay. Hoffman: We're not going to venture past that. We can hit the city boundary at Town Line so we can go there and work with Eden Prairie and Minnetonka to get their piece down but if you get to Town Line, 101 to get onto Town Line Road which will... Stolar: Yeah, I'm trying to think of the trail does go across...falls a little short. And then the other piece of it you said was going to go on the north side of Pleasant View. All the way to where the other trail kind of crosses the road there and goes into a connection to that. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Franks: So the idea then is that would connect the Near Mountain neighborhood to the 101 trail. Hoffman: Yep. Plus a couple of other neighborhoods feed into that. Franks: Okay, thank you. Any other commission questions for staff?. Stolar: I just wanted to run some numbers again. Beginning deficit is 1.8. And then it's like 500,000 roughly is just a projection so we'll have 2.3 and out of that, how much of the 101 trail is this year's funding in 2003? Or how much of that 2.3 is taken out for the current 101 rebuilding? Hoffman: Will be billed this year? To the fund. Stolar: Yeah. I mean does the 2.3, that doesn't take into account the funding for that trail, right? Or does it? Franks: What I think Glenn is saying is that we've got a cash balance right now of 1.8 and you're expecting. Stolar: 500 in 2003. Franks: So does this 1.8 reflect 2002's income? Hoffman: No. Franks: Okay, and that will be. Hoffman: It reflects income through about June. Franks: Through June. So about half of the year. Stolar: So we should expect another $250,000. And then we also should expect $500,000. What I'm trying to get to is what is our December 31, 2003 balance. You say just under a million is what you'd expect it to be? Hoffman: Can't put a date to it. The way I look at it is based on projects and I'm not sure when the building will occur on the 101 north trail. So the balance, they may have not built it and I can't account for how engineering is going to do the accounting. Whether they're going to pay for that fund out of, no 101 money may come out of it by December 31st of this year. Stolar: Of 2003 1 said. I'm looking if we do, we have all the projects we don't anticipate for, take our current balance and income, what's the end number that we will have available for 2004 for spending? Hoffman: Again estimated, we went through that. It's going to right around a half million to $700,000 more or less. Stolar: What was our total 101 trail contribution? Hoffman: North? Franks: It will be an estimated. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Hoffman: $500,000. Stolar: If I add that 500 to the 620 or 630 that's 1.1, out of 2.3 balance that we're going to have... Hoffman: We need to pick up the rest of this year's expenditures. $200,000 for 101 south. The other things that we have in this year's budget. Stolar: Actually that's what I was...okay. And then, in presenting this to the City Council, could we please have that balance to see what the situation is? I know they know what, but it might be good...because I am very much in support of our staying with our philosophy and so I'd be hesitant, even though you know this may be unrealistic, I still believe that we should take the Lake Ann funding and put it all in general fund. List the balance that we have at the end of the time with that, because you've already reduced the cost. Did you ever propose the 240 option to them? Or was it a full scale. So I think we take, you should take...we found a cheaper way to do it. We still have the general fund hitting this and then show what our balance is at the end and that way we're consistent with our philosophy, plus you showed a reduction in the Lake Ann resurfacing. Hoffman: I'll be glad to do that. One choice compared to how they're going to look at these kind of dollars versus what they're getting in today. Right now there's a $250,000 allocation for general fund money for road improvement, which council has been struggling with, this council has been struggling with for over a year. They' ve gone through an assessment policy where there' s going to be a certain portion of those street improvements assessed and then this is the city allocation. And they're having a very difficult time keeping that $250,000 in there. You have $250,000 is a quarter of the million that is currently up and beyond what they' ve had to deal with in the past year. So we're going to put it into the mix and then take some, the commission's going to have to talk to their council members to make sure they understand the importance of the improvements and the philosophies that it be taken out of the general fund allocation... Stolar: Are you making an analogy here though that like the city would assess a neighborhood to repair their road, this is our assessment for our park to pay for their road to be fixed? City pays part, we pay part. Is that how you're approaching it? Hoffman: No. Stolar: You're just saying you want to do whatever's realistic to try to get the money. Hoffman: What I've come down to is the Lake Ann Park is, I'm just tried of seeing the black eye on Lake Ann Park. It's a beautiful, beautiful park and we have a piece of junk road that goes into it. I want to get it repaired, and I've reminded the council in their line of progression that even, we go down to a 240, we're buying a half of a job. And so the thing will maybe be done in maybe 10 or 15 years instead of 30 years to do a complete reconstruction so we're just buying a quick fix at 240. Stolar: I know we're opening the gate, but then that's just going to open wider. Hoffman: Tonight's very...very little money's been allocated out of the general fund. The maximum that the Park and Recreation Department has received a general fund allocation for capital items has been... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Stolar: Part of the other part of my saying what' s the end balance, as we talked about before, there may be the reality that we won't have enough for what we need and we'll have to revisit that with, eventually with a bond or some other approach. And I'm worried about going against our philosophy here about repairs and maintenance without that piece of... To say all repair and maintenance you go to the citizens and ask for funding for repair and replacement. Great, then this can be thrown in there, but until that time I'd prefer approaching it with our philosophy. Franks: Thank you Glenn. Any other questions? Kelly: Yeah I was wondering, do we have to worry about City Center Park coming out of the park dedication in 2004? City Center Park has a pretty big price tag on it. That could take a majority of whatever balance is coming out of 2004, which what will leave us with almost nothing for the remainder of 2004. Hoffman: Presently it's unclear how much of that allocation will be out of 410 or how much will come out of the general fund or how much will come out of the library budget and that's an administrative project managed by the manager. But at some point they will pay the project... but it's going to go higher than that... Kelly: I was just curious. It' s something, it seems like a pretty high price tag item for 2004. Also on the Curry Park and Meadow Green, are they going to be Bandimere quality of play areas and surface? Is it going to be that foam surface that they have at Bandimere? Hoffman: No, it'd be similar to the other neighborhood parks where the new one, the concrete border and then pea gravel surface. And the play structure would be more like a Sugarbush or Roundhouse. Not the sky tower you see at Bandimere. We'd like to continue putting that rubber material in all the community parks. The problem is when you see the surfacing in concrete, it's almost equivalent to the cost of the structure, which we receive a 50 percent discount, but still it's very, it costs $40,000, equivalent to $40,000... Atkins: I have one comment on the rec center. With the fitness center currently being the major money or revenue producer, and the community center being down the road a few years, would it make sense to even buy more cardiovascular equipment? Where you take another space and maybe you have 10 or 12 even additional cardiovascular. My fear is, because it's crowded, that it's not serving the needs of people that want to work out. If you don't do that, are we going to see a slip in attendance. Hoffman: That's a philosophical question that staff has talked about since the opening of the center. Council has struggled with and what I think the best way to look at it is to remind ourselves that deriving profits at the rec center is not the primary focus. It's a balanced facility and when it was built the meeting room spaces, which are the only spaces that you could expand in, were the primary goal of the community. The city was very deficient in meeting space for a variety of community groups...and any other small fitness room... The fitness room has reached a very good equilibrium. We receive very few complaints about that it's crowded because people realize that if it doesn't fit their schedule...they've bought $20 worth of punches and they...when they're gone and that's not a huge...because it can only fit so many people.., go to Eden Prairie has private clubs, Chaska and other facilities. If we expand and take the community room out and that is, that provides...detriment to our community space needs, which are very important to the city. About the second year that the community or the recreation center opened, the City Council took a look at the balance sheet and said the facility is not making enough money. We Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 had a goal or thought that we should make more money when we Opened it compared to what we end up in each year in staffing and other costs. Today it's about a quarter million dollar operation and we make $175,000...second year of operation the council make more money. Kick those freebies out and find new paying customers, which staff did. Resulted in a huge outcry from those groups, the school groups, the community groups. Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, all those people were upset and said hey, you built a recreation center here for the community. We want access to it. We don't care if it's losing...we want to be there with our community group...it would be very easy to do but I' m not sure that' s in the best interest of the community to do that. It seems to be working. The City Manager asked the same question, and it would take some investigation to decide whether or not that would be a good idea. Atkins: Do you think it's worth investigating? Hoffman: I don't get the feel that it is because the room we struggle with most is the meeting room space. That's where we have the most need and we need more of that kind of space, and I' m sure... I' m not quite sure that is the philosophy of what the recreation center... Atkins: Yeah...general public views it that way. I think they think they paid for a rec center... join a club it costs them more money but that is...so I don't know. Hoffman: Just a punch card. That's really the best thing about the rec center, people don't pay a membership fee. They don't pay to join... The other part that goes along with that is they'll never pay back your capital investment .... $30,000 or $40,000 worth of cardio machines, at 2 bucks a piece we're not going to pay back our capital investment... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Franks: Let's bring it back to the commission for comments. Go ahead. Happe: I'll start. Highway 101 north and south I think are an excellent use of dollars that we have available. I think it' s pretty central to the mission of Park and Rec. We continue to expand the infrastructure of trails. That being said, that's not really part of these dollars we're looking at tonight. I have difficulty with the fact that we're going to propose a budget that has us spending more than our income. We're asking for, if we take the Lake Ann Park issue and set it aside, to come back to later in our dialogue, we're still asking for $653,000 in overall spending against an anticipated income over a 4 year history of $582,000 annually. So we're asking for council's approval or permission for whatever reason to spend more than our income. Bandimere park shelter ought to cost us $275,000. That would be a spectacular addition to the community but the council is going to take a look at areas or opportunities to pull back, I think it' s, when we talk about the Lake Ann issue, I think it's unrealistic. If we even put more weight on general fund's shoulders, I think it's unrealistic to expect that we're going to have our needs met with us trying to get that road built or fixed. The cuts that the council's facing one million dollar overage to that general fund before our request fully hits their desk. The max that they have allocated in years past to spend out of the general fund is $30,000 and if you take the Lake Ann Park spending that we're asking for and set that aside, we're still asking for, I don't have the calculation of what the total dollars are that we're asking to come out of the general fund. Stolar: It's like $143 if you take the 10 and move it for the park dedication. Happe: So we're asking for considerably more than has ever been approved to come out of the general fund before the Lake Ann project even hits the table. So I guess preliminarily it's my 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 opinion that we should strive to present the budget that's at least consistent with what we anticipate our income to be. I realize Todd that we're spending that savings that has been in this account for many years, and actually it increased every year for the past 10 years. It is being spent. I think it's being spent by the council in areas that are not inconsistent with park and rec, especially'the 101 trail project, but I'd just like to ask our commission to greatly consider trying to submit a budget proposal that' s at least representative of the amount of income that we expect park and trail dedication fees to generate so that we're not helping to add to a deficit or a funding problem for the council, but We can actually be part of the solution to that. That being said Chairman Franks I don't have specifics that could be brought up to start part of the conversation from the other commissioners as to what some of the areas of opportunities to look at where we could cut some of this spending money come from. I'm open to suggestions and ideas and don't have a strong feeling about any particular area or any sacred cow that I'd like to keep in the budget, but I would like to submit a budget that is a little bit more appropriate to our anticipated income. Franks: Thanks Dave. Amy, any comments? O'Shea: Yeah, I have just a couple. I think it is important to make sure that we state our philosophy on the Lake Ann. That we're not agreeing. That we would like to see these funds spent on maintaining or improving the road. So I think with that noted, I think we should also look at what has been funded. It needs to be done and I trust...if it all was proposed from the general fund so I would go with Todd's recommendation, but definitely noted that we are not changing our philosophy and that's something we should, we're talking about in September. And make sure that the council knows how strongly the commission feels on that. I see all this as a need to be done and Dave, if you're right about spending. I guess what I'd like to see is, because this is a new dilemma for this commission that that generating money...we need to look at how we can change the way we operate and how we can somehow continue to generate money. I don't have the answer but I think we need to look at that and change our thought on, we aren't going to have this stream of income coming that we have been so we can't sit back and not do anything. We definitely need to brainstorm with staff or however the procedure would work of how we can produce from another way than what's been done in the past. But I really don't see things that aren't needed on this list so those are my comments. Franks: Thanks. Todd I thought, I think it's a good list. I think that these projects that you've outlined are all necessary and important and it's a great place to start. I appreciate Dave your comment about spending within our means, and if we can have an average expected income of over $500,000, that' s kind of a target to shoot for generally speaking. Just to add a little insight to that, and you alluded to it a little bit, is that over the course of a number of years, the commission has intentionally spent less than the income that is expected to draw into the fund just for the purpose to be able to fund projects as they came up at a time when it was right and necessary. And it's really my opinion that as we are right on the cusp of this, our growth curve, that the time to really tackle these projects is now and that's the reason why the fund balance sits where it's at. To handle these types of projects and so, it's also the reason why I think we're struggling with this idea of replacement and maintenance not being funded from new park dedication dollars. Again if we look at subtracting $140,000 from the amount that you've proposed to come out of park dedication funds, the $620,000, we're back down to $500,000. Which then is within the park dedication amount within the kind of budget idea that you've set by spending within our income. And really looking at the city as a whole city and responsible to maintain the park infrastructure that we've built, which the whole city gets to utilize and enjoy as well. I am in agreement I think with Glenn that we should make a statement with the Lake Ann roadway, and really suggest that that be funded from general fund dollars. I'm also a realist, understanding that 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 the council's going to look at that and have some problems with that. But it's our, in my opinion it's this commission' s responsibility to look after the welfare of the park system and how that should be taken care of. The council' s responsibility is to see that larger picture, and if it' s a decision that they make to fund that in some different way, well then they've received the input from this body that we think it's the best way to do it. Then they've got that piece of information to use in their decision making process. I'm hesitant to begin to make those decisions for the City Council when in a sense we have some understanding of how that should, although quite possibly will not occur. I don't see also anything on the list that we should subtract at Bandimere Park. We get that shelter in, it's just going to totally increase that usage and make it a premiere sports facility in town here. Todd, when you'd talking about full shelter, we're talking sanitary sewer and water and the whole bit. Hoffman: Listed under the current picnic shelter, the amenities would include the covered picnic shelter, modern restrooms, concession space, storage space and... Sewer and water is already stubbed out right underneath where the building would be. There's that large irrigation box which is currently there. Those irrigation controls would be built right into the structure when we have... Franks: The one hit that we weren't necessarily expecting because we had no idea when it was really going to come, and this commission really didn't have in my opinion a tremendous amount of input in it's coming about was the 101 north trail...but I mean that's just a reality that needs to go in. It should have gone in a long time ago. It's a good thing, but I think that leads to that perception that wow, we're irresponsibly spending a lot of money from the fund, when in a sense it's because of the responsibility of past commissions that we're able to fund these sorts of projects all at once. So that's enough out of me. Let's move on. Tom, you're supposed to shut me up when I drone. Kelly: I don't really have much to add. I agree that these are great projects. What I...is Bandimere being so expensive but I mean there was so much activity there, there's absolutely no shade at all and it would just be great to have that shelter there .... the City Council that we aren't crazy about doing a 50/50 split on Lake Ann but if that's what needs to get done to make that parking area look better, then if we have the money, we probably should try to do it. Atkins: Well all this talk about figures is really giving me a headache because my area of expertise are all, I'm a little bit lost here. I was curious about the figure for the park dedication fund, but I gleaned that from listening to you guys that this list seems, I mean it's really been whittled down from the first list you gave us a couple months ago so obviously it's prioritized very well. The skate ramp I have a comment. Is it possible to do a fundraiser or have the kids do a fundraiser to get a skate ramp or something like that in order to trim some money off?. I don't know if things like that are possible. If the council doesn't approve this, then what happens? Do we have to trim it then ourselves? Hoffman: Well...we want you to reduce it or this is the reductions that we're going to make so... Atkins: If Bandimere, when someone holds, a group holds a tournament there, do they pay a fee for usage? Ruegemer: To rent the facility? No. Atkins: If there was a park shelter there, would there be a fee applied like there is at the other shelter? 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Hoffman: There could be. Atkins: I'm just curious. Hoffman: Similar to Lake Ann. Atkins: Yeah. And with the picnic tables and benches, are they new? Those are new acquisitions, not replacing. Or replacing old or putting more new or? Hoffman: Both. Some of both. I explained in we have maximum attrition where we get rid of the old equipment and then we also add annual growth in our park system which requires additional seating. Seating is one of the most common things that' s requested because in order to experience the park, people need a place to sit, put their picnic.. The trail systems in the park have become more popular to put these in .... picnic table and a bench, they're about 500 bucks a piece... Atkins: And the only other thing is, I'm learning all the time so this council meeting's going to be very enlightening. That's all I have. Franks: Thanks. Glenn. Stolar: Just a few things. Again I compliment staff on whittling it down is hard because everything is good. Everything helps our park system and so it's very difficult. I mentioned about what I felt about Lake Ann. I think we need to stick by our philosophy there. I don't know Todd if you have discussions when they bring it up. For example if they ask that question you at least have the opportunity to provide feedback to them. Hoffman: Typically we have one opportunity a year for that. Maybe two during the budget process. Commissioner O'Shea brought up a great comment that September 30th is coming around. That's one of your discussion topics for that evening. Give you an idea how this council, how they...and the Lake Ann Park building is sitting there today because of the general fund so that's a million dollar general fund investment in the city's park system so when I say $30,000, that...this type of work. The Lake Ann park shelter, or park maintenance program has been... paid for solely out of the general fund. It paid for a section of the Lake Ann road and the building of the maintenance structure itself so... Stolar: I also I'd like to agree with David's comments that we have a budget conscience here. The distinction here is no matter what we do, we're going to run out of money. We're not going to be able to meet it so...spend it now and let's deal with the bond issue quick. How do we pay for this in the future when the growth stops? And my experience in Eden Prairie, that's exactly how they did it. They said we're going to spend because that's our philosophy and we're going to go back and say okay, but the growth has stopped. Our source of funding has stopped. Do we need another source? And the reality is to...but I do think if we take away Lake Ann we're down to not quite under 500, with 500 the projection. If you put the projection at 510, we'd be at 510... I also think, and you and I had talked about this in a sense. If I looked at the criteria for how we should spend our money, we have some various things. We have safety issues. We have access issues, enhanced usage, and repair and replacement and I put repair and replacement different than safety. Those are things that you need to do because of safety reasons and there are those that you need to do because of longevity issues so I can't say for sure on the park benches but once they become an ugly eyesore and really need to replace them, that's repair and replacement 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 versus the playground equipment where there's a safety issue. And we mainly address the safety issue. Park dedication historically it sounded has been really focused on some of the access issues like longer trail system where we enhance the parks or create some new parks and access and safety seem to be my top priorities. Now I support this plan with the one exception of the Lake Ann project. If I have to look at anything to remove it would be enhance research because any time...I still think we have a mission to have access and we have an obligation to deal with safety. So those would be my top priorities. Franks: I'm sorry, what was that? Stolar: Our mission is to grant access and we have an obligation for safety so if any, you know we don't know what's going to come out of the City Council, so it's just personal input to the staff. If there's discussion at that point, that's how I feel we should prioritize. I think we should approve this, and once we get to that point I'll ask that the Lake Ann thing be adjusted, but I think we have to focus on access and safety. Hoffman: Were those before you... Stolar: There was a fifth one I can't remember what it was, but there was, yeah. I came here fresh from work and I realized I forgot the list but those are generally speaking the areas. And park dedication is set up for access. Hoffman: So we can run through the financials once more. I set it up just in basic dollar amounts.., so everybody gets a feel for that, and again these are estimates. Word of caution is that building permit activity is not at an all time high in the community. The multi-family is the only thing in town. Single family permits are flat. Industrial permits are going backwards so industrial has really driven a good deal of the revenue in those 582 type of numbers and that's just not happening .... in town will not go into new space... On the income side for 2003, we got down 1.8 and that would be current cash on hand. Point 2, which would be the remaining income in 2002, and then...point 4, which would be income in 2003. Is about cash balance again in 2003 is 2.4 or cash balance of income. In that same approximate time period would be .7 million in 2003 based on the plan that you have before you today. Point 3 add in in 2002 remaining, and that's not including 101, so .3 for the other things that we're doing. Point 5 for 101. And .2 for City Center, if that would be an allocation that is taken out of there for a total of 1.7, so we have a difference of approximately...in 2003. Franks: I'm sorry, what was that again? Hoffman: $700,000. 1.7 versus .4. Franks: At the end of 2003. Hoffman: 2003. That being the perspective...and this is all responsible investments and it's just a philosophy. It's what you want to do. The town has grown to 21,000 people. The community is asking for the reserves...community responded. The council has responded. Passed a referendum in '97...improvements. Continued on with that. The 101 north trail is absolutely going to be history in the making. At the same time we complete the 101 south trail, which has seen very little publicity but it's going to be a wonderful compliment to the system. We'll have a trail on 101 from Pioneer to Minnetonka. Pioneer Trail to Minnetonka. All the way down a state highway which is on the county trail plan and the city did it all by themselves so I think we have a lot to...philosophy. Do you want to continue to do that, or sit back and...you have porta 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 potties, you didn't have running water and you didn't have a place...headquarters and storage, and you put that kind of facility a $275,000 improvement into a park which to date has cost us 2 million dollars, it's another 14 percent to that investment and it just caps off the park so... We have this much and we put this much more to make it just that much better. Franks: If we approve something tonight, when would it go to be considered by the council? Hoffman: Well it will be submitted to the City Manager and the Finance Director tomorrow, and then it would be put into the budget calendar and the City Council would most likely start talking about it within the next 3 to 4 weeks. Perhaps longer than that based on their work calendar... My hope would be that they would see it before the September 30th meeting. Franks: Would they act on it? Hoffman: No they would not. Franks: So they would receive our recommendation for discussion and consideration. Hoffman: They may...city manager's office and then finance director reviews it and then... Happe: Chairman Franks, one additional comment. When you look at Bandimere, it may be perceived as low hanging fruit for a city council that is looking for opportunities to see where their checkbook spending is going. So if Bandimere Community Park is something that this commission feels very strongly needs to happen in 2003, Todd I don't know if there's any way that we can enhance our position or further define our support for not only having that park shelter built, but built in 2003. Just kind of think through if we have not articulated our reasoning or our position for why that has to happen in 2003, if that wouldn't be an easy line item for a council looking for ways to turn down our proposed $893,000 total expenditures. I just don't know if you can put any additional emphasis behind the commission's request for funds for that particular facility. I likely will not vote in support of the overall budget for the reasons that I' ve discussed, but it's just my recommendation that the commission take a look at, see if they can raise the language of the summary that Todd put together in a way that very much conveys why we believe that that project needs to move forward in the 2003 plan. Franks: I think that staff, when this is presented to council will be able to do a pretty good job of justifying the necessity or importance of that shelter. Todd, you've done a good job of communicating that to us tonight and when that comes up I feel pretty confident you'll be able to do that. I think that is good we have these discussions on the record so as a part of our recorded minutes, that these types of ideas are down that...if they wish to really have an understanding of where we are at exactly and how we arrive at the decision. We certainly provided our minutes and can look through them and see that pretty clearly so I appreciate you making those comments for the record and it's certainly one that I endorse as well. Is there any more discussion from the commission? Okay seeing none then I'd be interested in entertaining a motion. It's been talked about a little bit. I don't think we've quite reached consensus so it's my understanding concerning the funding for the Lake Ann Park roadway resurfacing, I think I made it clear how I feel about it. My personal feeling is that I think that we should submit to the City Council a budget that this commission feels is the best way to go about doing it to give the City Council that information for them in their decision making process. How to work from the time line. When is our meeting scheduled for? September 30th right? That before any specific action is taken by the council on our submitted budget, that we would certainly have an opportunity at that point to discuss with them the philosophy behind it. Hear their feedback and potentially request to make 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 any changes to better work in a cooperative effort with the council at that time, but I think at this stage in the game I think it'd be beneficial for us to really stick to what we see as the philosophy. ...that might be coming out is the idea between new development and replacement and repair, and also maintain some fiscal responsibility within the amount of income that we're likely to generate on a yearly basis. Given that I'm going to throw it out to anyone who feels... Stolar: May I suggest that we put this on the table as a motion and then you can amend the motion. Talk about how we finalize it. So I'd just like to move that we approve staff recommendation. Put it out there on the table and then you can offer a friendly amendment. Franks: I certainly go along with that. Stolar: I move that we approve staff recommendation for 2003 Park and Trail Acquisition and Development Capital Improvement Program. Franks: Thank you. Is there any discussion to the. Stolar: We need a second. Franks: Yeah, is there a second? O'Shea: I second. Franks: Okay, the motion has been moved and seconded. I'll open it up then for discussion on the motion. Hoffman: Clarification on the dollar amount. The current staff motion is park dedication $630,000...fund $263,000. The dollar amount for the thought process that all of Lake Ann should come out of the general fund would put those numbers at 510 and 33. Franks: Thank you Todd. Alright, Mr. Stolar's made a motion. It's been seconded. I've opened it up for discussion on the motion. Are you open to a friendly amendment to your motion? One that I would propose is that the entire funding for the Lake Ann Park roadway be shifted from 50 percent park dedication, 50 percent general fund to 100 percent from the general fund which would then shift the figure that's indicated by Mr. Hoffman with the total coming out of park dedication to be $510,000. The remainder from the general fund of $383,000. Stolar: I accept that amendment. And the second accepts that change? Franks: Okay, great. We do have then a motion for consideration. We'll move the previous question. Stolar moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve a 2003 Park and Trail Acquisition and Development Capital Improvement Program totally $893,000 as detailed in the attached reports. All voted in favor, except Happe who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1. Franks: 5 for, 1 against. Dave, we'll give you the opportunity to state your objection for the record to the motion. 16 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Happe: I think Rod even with putting the remainder of the Lake Ann Park allocation into the general fund, my sole opposition is that we are still submitting a total spending package to the council that exceeds our projected income. While I do believe that we still have a revenue source capable of covering park and trail objectives for 2003, I believe the proposal as moved still puts us in a negative balance situation. And for that reason I am opposed to the motion. Franks: So noted. Todd we'll indicate that the motion did carry 5 to 1. Thank you. PROGRAM REPORTS: DAVE HUFFMAN 5K MEMORIAL RACE. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks and the rest of the commission. Tom and I did meet with the rest of the 5K race committee this evening at 5:15. Going over many of the details for the race coming up the 14t~ of September. Everyone' s been kind of work around like little busy bees lately trying to accomplish their portion of the commitment they've got for the race committee. I'm going to...Todd talked about the kids fun run that was added this year. Tom is kind of chairing that component or portion of the event so I'll let him explain that here briefly. We' ve been working on that very hard and meeting, a lot of meetings with the Vikings, KFAN radio. ! don't know if anybody's heard our spot on the radio. KFAN came to us and Dan Seaman who lives in town up in the Pheasant Hills area is the General Manager KFAN and a lot of other clear channel stations in our area. He has run the race in the past and they did come to us last year with a $2,500 donation in Dave's memory from KFAN. And then also a portion of...and wanted to know if they could do some advertising for us on the radio. We gladly accepted their free spot and they were running last week, the week before. Now we're going to have a little bit of a lull period and then they' re going to start the week leading up to the event. Through that connection with KFAN we're also going to have, it looks like some type of a KFAN public, or the Vikings... Mike Morris. Superstar. It looks like he's going to lead the race...He did play with Dave kind of on the tail end of Dave' s career and early to middle of Mike Morris' career so it' s been a real jewel for us to kind of connect with those partnerships and it' s been kind of a fun experience as well so we're still hoping on right now, we've met with the Vikings several times now and cheerleaders. We just don't know if there's going to, if they will be here. It certainly is our hope. They kind of add, Ragnar's very good with the kids last year with taking pictures and it's our hope that he is there to hand out the medals to the kids as they cross the finish line. The kids portion of the event. That remains to be seen at this point. If not, we're going to go with Plan B. So we' ve been very busy ordering tents and portable rest rooms and working with our street superintendent Mike Wegler to ensure that there's safe streets out there...signs working with Dave Potts, the Carver County Sheriff's Department to ensure the same type of... We'll be putting the signals on flashing red to slow traffic within the race route. We set out notification letters to all of the residents that are affecting it along the race route and we're really hoping that this is...versus an inconvenience at this point so. It's a real brief thing. It starts at 9:00 at Lake Ann by, you know within an hour, typically everybody's out running the race so it's a real fun festive event. Kathy Huffman and the kids...are coming back again this year. We did confirm their plane tickets and they should have those. They're e tickets but they should be in their hands so to speak at this point so they should come in Friday the 13th and leaving on Sunday afternoon back to the Chicago area. So it's fun working with the race committee. Everybody seems to be doing a great job... We're okay with volunteers at this point but we certainly could use some more. Tom will ask you...but the shirts are at the printers right now and we should be getting those back hopefully by the end of the week or early part of next week. Those again are being paid for by a donation solely for the shirt cost and then we have a very generous...Screen Printing in Plymouth will do all the screening for free. So the shirts don't cost us any money and I think we have a balance in that fund, or Dave Huffman Memorial fund of about $9,300 right now so... fund balance into the next year. We're always looking for business help. We've had great 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 response from our community businesses in helping out with other donations...volunteers. It's been a very well received event for our area. Knock on wood we'll have good weather again this year so. Other than that I think we're about, I heard what 50 participants behind last year but I'm not all that concerned. Last year we had 100 some people register the day of the race and I know that we will do that again this year so we're anticipating hopefully more runners but... Einstein's will be doing bagels and...so great, great event. Any questions at all I can answer from the commission? Happe: How many volunteers does it take to pull this thing off?. Ruegemer: 40 to 60. We have Boy Scouts help with the water stations...two places around town .... with people actually yelling out times as the runners go by so they're kind of in sync with their watches. When you have between the street department park maintenance workers, Carver County Sheriff's department, and... Franks: Are you having us sign up for volunteering duties tonight? Kelly: As far as the kids run go, we are having a kids run this year. It's free. It's going to start around 10:00 a.m.. It should be about the same time as the last runners are crossing the finish line. It is a traffic friendly course. The kids will be running on sidewalks. The race will start, it's going to be the parking lot by the sidewalk that parallels 101 approaching Highway 5. And there's a trail cut-off on the right and they will run behind Houlihan's. Take that boardwalk over the pond, come out the other side of Houlihan's and make a right turn and head towards the finish line. It' s probably around a quarter to a half mile run. And as far as entertainment, New Horizons has volunteered to put on some entertainment for the... They're not intending to be a babysitting service but they are having a magician there just to keep the kids occupied. They'll hand out goody bags for the kids and the finisher will receive a medal hopefully from... cheerleaders as they cross the finish line. What I really need is volunteers. If anyone who isn't running on the 14th, we really need people to help out with the kids race and I hope we'll have people stationed at different parts throughout the route just to watch the kids and just to make sure that it's a safely run race. It shouldn't take any more than 15 to 20 minutes so if anyone wants to volunteer to come out on the 14th and help out with the kids run, it'd be very much appreciated .... Shouldn't last more than 10-15 minutes. Stolar: No, how... Kelly: Probably between a quarter and a half mile. Happe: Kids will register that day or pre-register... Kelly: ...probably around 9:45 I'll start to round up the kids in the staging area and then if we have a lot of kids, probably start them in waves. Have the older kids go first and then the younger kids and hopefully it will be a good event. Hopefully it will bring out some adults that weren't planning on running that maybe now they'll make it into a family event. Hopefully we'll get a critical mass of kids that will allow us to continue this in the future. Happe: Good idea. Hoffman: The first volunteer at Highway 5... 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Kelly: The boardwalk, I want to make sure because I don't want any of these kids slipping through so we'll have a couple people on the boardwalk. Franks: Can we get rid of the goose? Clean it off. Kelly: I think we're going to clean up and pull out the weeds... Franks: Good. Well that's a good way to get that done as well then. Well this event just keeps getting better. Hoffman: Commissions of the past have always talked about a race...and it's grown. Awesome. Great to see. Ruegemer: So if you can give your names to Tom tonight before you leave tonight. Kelly: Yeah, I'll get that sheet of paper out, or I've got a good memory. Franks: What time does the actual race start at? Ruegemer: 9:00 a.m. out at Lake Ann Park. Kelly: ... Ruegemer: From Americlnn? Kelly: Yeah. Ruegemer: Quarter to nine-ish. Franks: Please drive the last few people over. I remember the last couple years I've driven people over. Okay, sounds wonderful. So I'm going to encourage everyone if you're here to volunteer. I have had just a fantastic time volunteering at this event every year. This year I'm going to run so I plan on doing some stuff beforehand and unless I' m completely exhausted so we'll see but yeah. You can mark me down for filling in where I can afterwards. And you certainly have my permission at this time to put everyone on the spot individually and... Stolar: Is the children's going to start also at Lake Ann? Kelly: No, not Lake Ann. That's going to start at, it will start and finish at the finish line. So they'll start in the parking lot, start and end in the parking lot of Americlnn. Franks: Alright. Well thank you Jerry. Kelly: If you want to e-mail me if you can volunteer, that'd be great so I'm not panicked at... ADMINISTRATIVE: COMMUNITY CENTER FOCUS GROUP. Todd Hoffman provided the update on the Community Center Focus Group. Franks: Will this commission receive formal feedback from this focus group prior to information going to City Council? 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Hoffman: No. The council looks at this as a project...previous conversation was, they talked about should we just have the park commission do this. And they said no, they wanted a broader cross section than that... And then should they do a task force? No, they're not looking to do a full blown task force. And so they're, this report is sent back to the City Council...and the council had no problem with that last night. Stolar: This charge statement, that was drafted by. Hoffman: Drafted by staff based upon the previous conversation with the City Council at a work session. Stolar: It seems to me, by having our commission members on it, commission member committee report, that's how we should get our update. But I would think that it would be appropriate as an informational item, not necessarily an action item. I don't care if it is forwarded faster, but around the same time as the council that we get the full briefing from our... Hoffman: You bet. You' 11 also get the copy of the report in your administrative packet. Stolar: So, is this how the type of things have been done in the past when we have representation that they just present it through that. Hoffman: ...just a different task... Franks: Any other comments? Anything that keeps this moving forward is a positive step in my opinion. We certainly want to support that. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORT. None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Franks: Any comments on the administrative packet? No? Kelly: I just have one .... goose program again next year for 2003? Or is that. Hoffman: We put it in the budget. We skipped one year in the past 10 years and that resulted in some additional outcry from primarily Lotus Lake or Minnewashta folks. They... Kelly: I do think it's valuable given the dollars per goose, it's a pretty good program for the area... Hoffman: Valuable to those homeowners and so, but is it equitable, I'm not sure about that. Atkins: I have a question about rental .... if somebody rents an area... Ruegemer: ...those picnic facility sites are...6:00-7:00 in the morning on both Saturday and Sunday morning. Stolar: What about the maintenance issue? What was the situation there? 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Franks: Are you talking about having like boat docking? Happe: Yes. Franks: Instead of just. Happe: Either boat docking or even, I was just wondering if you've ever had this conversation about more significant or better dock facilities. Not necessarily boat storage or docking them but just maybe better access docks into the lake. I just didn't know if... Franks: Only as it's arisen as a maintenance item so. Hoffman: Lake Susan has never had an access dock. We could certainly budget for one. Lake Ann does not have an access dock. Happe: Well they have access ramps but not docks. It's just something that maybe doesn't need to be addressed immediately but just something that we maybe should think about at some point. Franks: You're talking about the dock after you land your boat, something to tie up to? Happe: Yeah, and or you put your dock in and you either have to catch your dock going through the water and get on your boat that way so we have the access ramps into the lake but we don't really have a means to get on the boat without jumping in the water and...so just something that we could look at at some point down the road. Franks: It's certainly an amenity that'd be worthwhile. We have them at Lotus. Hoffman: Just Lotus. It would be an embellishment I believe or. Franks: Enhancement. Hoffman: Enhancement. I like that word. Franks: Okay, if there's no further comments or discussion, I'll entertain a motion for adjoumment. Stolar moved, Happe seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 22 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002 Ruegemer: That was a unique situation. All those lights are at, this is at Lake Ann in particular and all those lights are on the timer. They come on... This was at 5:00-6:00 at night middle of summer. We had tornado sirens and stuff going on at that time. The regional softball tournament going on at the same time, so that was kind of a unique situation where we shouldn't face that very often. Hoffman: They're on a timer, not a photo cell. Ruegemer: They're on a timer. Stolar: Part of that discussion was that they tried to call someone and they couldn't get a hold of anybody. Hoffman: It's going to be tough to find somebody on a Saturday. Stolar: I guess they were under the assumption they would have the ability to get a hold of somebody. Hoffman: They kind of hoped that they could. Ruegemer: ...but I was there. It was a unique situation that we would not encounter on a normal, everyday weekend. Stolar: From a safety perspective, is there a posting there? Is there a phone or a way for them to get a hold of anybody for safety issues? Hoffman: There's a phone there if they want to call 911. Stolar: Okay. Hoffman: Then dispatch calls a deputy and then they haVe a phone list on a variety of issues... Franks: I did notice one thing on the Canadian geese, in the Figure 5 it says mean number of Canada geese, and I'm wondering if that was meant to say number of mean geese because when I'm running down by Lake Susan, they are scary sometimes and they are clogging the trail and you know. Hoffman: They want to protect their young. Franks: Okay. Anything more? Hoffman: Have you noticed the dead grass at Lake Susan? Along the trail. They've killed the grass between the trail and Lake Susan from about the beach to the fishing pier, and that's part of that planting program and Lori Haak, the Water Resource Coordinator will be approaching you as potential volunteers to plant both aquatic and then the grasses and trees and plants outside of the water, probably the end of September. It's a DNR grant management program. Some of these plants which are aquatic will be actually planted in the water... Happe: ...public launching on lakes in Chanhassen? Like the dock facilities at Lake Susan for example. 21