PRC 2011 12 13
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
DECEMBER 13, 2011
Chairman Daniel called the meeting to order at 6:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Jeff Daniel, Steve Scharfenberg, Tom Kelly, Cole Kelly, Elise Ryan, Peter
Aldritt, and Brent Caron
STAFF PRESENT:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent;
Mitch Johnson, Recreation Supervisor; Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent; Jodi Sarles, Recreation
Center Manager; and Susan Bill, Senior Center Coordinator
PUBLIC PRESENT:
Matt Chambers 7043 Highover Drive
Jill Zafke 7030 Highover Drive
John Stutzman 6901 Yuma Drive
APPROVAL OF AGENDA:Cole Kelly moved, Carron seconded to approve the agenda as
published. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
Ruegemer: Just want to, Mitch will come up here in a little bit here too but just want to introduce Mitch
Johnson, our new Recreation Supervisor. Second week on the job. Started last Monday so we’ve been
hitting the ground running pretty hard right now with rink training and rinks opening up and Feb Fest and
all that kind of stuff so Mitch, would you like to say anything to the commission?
Johnson: Well thanks Chair and Commissioners. As Jerry said my name’s Mitch Johnson. I’ve been
with the City now for about 3 1/2 years. I actually started in the summer of ’08 as an intern for the
department, so I did that for the summer. After that I worked as a Community Service Officer for the
City. Kind of worked the, you know different special events still. Worked for the street department for
about a year and kind of came full circle and you know this opportunity came up so I’m back in the
department so looking forward to it. I’ve had some other you know outside jobs from like the YMCA
and other cities as well. Experience in programming stuff so yeah I’m excited to be back and hit the
ground running.
Daniel: Well certainly welcome Mitch. Look forward to working with you. I know I can speak on
behalf of the commission for that and welcome to your new position.
Johnson: Thank you.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
Daniel: We have some guests. Todd, are they going to be covering what’s in our business?
Hoffman: I think they’re probably here for the trail item so.
Daniel: Okay, great. Then why don’t we.
Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
John Stutzman: Mr. Chair Daniels. Chair Daniels and members of the commission. After that introduce
of Mitch, as many of you well know I have moved to the City of Bloomington and I just want to take a
few minutes and thank you guys for everything over the last 4 1/2 years. It’s been a wonderful time for
me. I was very proud to be a part of such a wonderful city. I was very pleased to work with so many
wonderful staff members as well as commissioners, both past and present and I certainly appreciate all the
support, all the help and everything you guys have done over the last, or throughout my time so I just
wanted to come by. Stop and say thank you. Wish everybody a happy holidays and wish everybody the
best now that I have moved on. It was a very bitter sweet decision as I will miss time here in Chanhassen
and always look back on it fondly so thank you for making it such a wonderful time and thanks to all the
staff as well for making it such a great tenure here and I will, as I said I will always look fondly on the
years that I spent here so thank you guys very much.
Daniel: Well John we certainly appreciate the opportunity to work with you over the last several years
with your time with the City of Chanhassen and certainly appreciate your enthusiasm as well as diligent
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work at all the events that we’ve had, especially with the 4 of July. I mean if there’s one thing that
stands out each year, and I know how hard you work at that event, again it comes off as one of the top
events in the city here so congratulations on your new position and we wish you the best on your new
endeavors.
John Stutzman: Thank you very much. Thank you.
Tom Kelly: I just want to say, I really personally really enjoyed working with you for the last 4 1/2 years.
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Besides the 4 of July, which is a high profile event, but you came up with some great activities within
the city. I think the band wars has taken off because of you. A lot more youth programs are going on and
I just want to say for us it’s been great working with you for the past few years. Hopefully you give a
great time at Bloomington as well.
John Stutzman: Thank you very much. How’s the ultimate stuff going at the high school?
Tom Kelly: I’m working on trying to get in front, I’ve gotten in front of the AD. I’m now trying to drum
up the interest with the actual students.
John Stutzman: Okay. Well good luck with that.
Tom Kelly: Thanks.
Scharfenberg: Best of luck to you.
John Stutzman: Thank you very much.
Daniel: Thank you John. Good luck.
Cole Kelly: Thanks John.
John Stutzman: Thanks.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Daniel: Okay, well why don’t we go ahead and approve the minutes dated November 22, 2011 at our last
meeting. If there’s any changes, please note. If not let’s go ahead and make the.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Cole Kelly: No, I’ve got one change.
Daniel: Thank you Cole.
Cole Kelly: When I said Fortune 500, 5,000 they put a dollar sign in front of the 5,000. That should be
removed. Page 5.
Daniel: Okay. With that change noted. Are there any other changes? If not let’s go ahead and make the
approval with the change noted on page 5.
Carron: I’ll make the motion to approve the minutes.
Cole Kelly: Second.
Carron moved, Cole Kelly seconded to approve the verbatim and summary minutes of the Park
and Recreation Commission meeting dated November 22, 2011 with the change noted on page 5 of
the verbatim minutes. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0.
REVIEW PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS, HIGHWAY 41 TRAIL EXTENSION AND
STAIRWAY CONNECTOR.
Hoffman: Thank you Chair Daniels and members of the commission. It is not without anticipation that
we’re here to talk about Highway 41. This project started in 2005 in concept and here we are on the eve
of 2012 ready to put the shovel in the ground come this spring. This topic tonight is the complimentary
project to the larger County, City joint powers project. When that project was awarded the grant dollars,
the federal grant dollars, we got into the County had made the application. We got into the specifics of
the application. Where does it start? Where does it stop? And during the submittal process the County
chose to stop the northerly terminus of the main trail at the middle school. That was their destination of
choice. We need to get to the middle school. Get the kids from the middle school down to the regional
park but there’s a short gap in there from the middle school driveway to Chaska Road that is important for
Chanhassen residents and area residents to the north because without that connection you’re still walking
on the shoulder of Highway 41 in order to make that access point so early on in the process we tried add
that into the larger project. The County was not in the position to do that because of the funding
requirements, reporting requirements and so they thought it would become too cumbersome to report
those dollars spent on that portion of the trail through the reimbursement process for the federal grant so
we set out to do a separate project just to make that final connection and then we added the stairway
connection to the Highover neighborhood which was that outlot where that stairway or trail connection
was to be built was platted as a part of the neighborhood. When that plat came through, it came through
the park commission. City Council review and took at look at okay, we’re going to build a bunch of
homes up on top of this ridge. We have the regional park. We know there’s going to be some sort of a
future underpass connection so that was held out, that outlot. In many cases those type of situations are
an easement where you just have an easement between two homes. In this case it is an actual physical
outlot which is owned by the City of Chanhassen. So SRF consulting group was hired by the County to
complete the larger trail project so we retained that firm as well. Mr. Mike McGarvey who is a landscape
architect and a principal with that firm tonight is here this evening and he’ll go over the plans. These
plans will be presented to the commission for your review and comment and then we’re asking that with
any changes that you would recommend, you make a recommendation to the City Council. If they
approve these plans and specifications and they will take that up in their first meeting in January. It’s
important that we have these plans approved by both the commission and the council so we can get them
out to bid at the same time that they’re bidding the larger project sometime in February or perhaps early
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
March of next year. So with that introduction we’ll allow Mike to come up and give an overview of the
plan. What’s going on with the City portion of the project and then take questions from the commission.
We’ll also leave time for audience comments at some point after the presentation.
Daniel: Okay.
Mike McGarvey: Thanks Todd. Chair Daniel and members of the commission. As Todd mentioned this
is a complimentary project to a project that we are also doing for Carver County which is the larger trail
that runs along 41 from the school entrance drive located here and to the south making the connection to
the existing trail at Longacres Drive and then just through the, in the vicinity of where we’re going to
have the stair connection there is also a crossing underneath Highway 41. A box culvert crossing that
then provides the connection into Lake Minnewashta Regional Park. As Todd mentioned as part of the
project that is a federally funded project. A Transportation Enhancement project that was funds were
applied for that some years ago and when that project was originally identified the northern terminus that
was identified was the school entrance and because of the funding was based on that application and the
PM and so on, we needed to be consistent with the funding application so that’s why we ended up with
this short little gap between, basically between the school road and really wanted to make a connection all
the way up to 7. Excuse me, so as Todd mentioned we have been working with the City in conjunction
with the County to fill that gap that exists basically between school road and Chaska Road and ultimately
to connections to the west and along the east, or I’m sorry, the west side of 41 up to 7. We did look at, at
one point at an alignment that was entirely on the east side of the roadway of Highway 7, or Highway 41
but for a variety of reasons the crossing of the free right at the intersection of 7 and 41, some utility
conflicts and wetland issues at that same southwest or southeast quadrant of the intersection of 7 and 41.
We looked at the idea of crossing just south of Chaska Road as a more cost effective way to make that
connection, making use of the striped median there and replacing that with a raised concrete median to
allow pedestrians crossing Highway 41 a pedestrian refuge. Essentially what we are doing is taking the
existing crossing that is at the school entrance that really is disconnected from any sort of trail system and
integrating that crossing into the regional trail that runs to the south, as well as connection to Chaska
Road and trails that exist on the west side of Highway 41 and basically moving that crossing to a safer
location by providing that pedestrian refuge that would allow somebody to cross 41 in two stages and
basically have to only look for traffic either in the northbound or southbound direction and not have to be
paying attention traffic going both ways so they can cross the northbound lanes. Look for another gap
and cross the southbound lanes. Significantly safer way to deal with that. And then as I mentioned, and
Todd has mentioned, at the south end of the project the other element of this is the pedestrian connection
into the Highover neighborhood that exists there. There are a number of detail sheets that I can go
through at a later time but one just kind of quickly get to the gist of the project. You can see here again
what was largely identified in the aerial photo in just a little bit greater detail, that we are looking at a 10
foot wide trail that would extend from the northern terminus of the regional trail project at the school
entrance. Continue along the west side, or I’m sorry the east side of Highway 41 to Chaska Road. One of
the changes that we just made was adding a little spur that connects directly to Chaska Road and a
pedestrian ramp at that location that will allow for residential traffic, local traffic, foot traffic to access the
trail at that point. And then as I mentioned we will have a new concrete median within 41 in the location
that is currently striped. We will remove some of the pavement there and put in curb and gutter and a
raised median to allow pedestrians to cross that as I said in kind of a two stage crossing. And then we’ll
tie into existing trails that are on the west side of 41 adjacent to the development on that side of the
roadway. Tie into that to make our, continue our trail on north to the intersection with Highway 7. The
lower sheet you can kind of see some of the grades as we proceed along that stretch, and that’s the profile
area. The next sheet is a further detail of what this connection’s going to look like. We will be re-striping
both that painted median and putting in new crosswalk striping at the new crosswalk. There will be some
signage as well that will be modified to reflect the new median. There are some minor utility relocations
that have to be made on the west side. There’s a number of electrical and telephone boxes. A couple
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
guide wires that need to be relocated and then we make that connection to the existing trail. For the
stairway component you can see here the box culvert underneath Trunk Highway 41 that extends into
Lake Minnewashta Park. The regional trail runs along the east side of Highway 41 and then tying into
that and leading up into the Highover neighborhood is the stairway. The trail itself is a bituminous trail.
The connection into the neighborhood and the stairway will be a concrete construction to differentiate it
from the regional trail. Roughly 30 feet of grade change between the trail elevation in this area and the
roadway elevation at Highover Drive. So there a pretty significant stairway that will be constructed there.
Scharfenberg: Mike if I could interrupt. How wide is that stairway?
Mike McGarvey: That is, well if I go to the next sheet here quickly, that is, we are looking at basically a
6 foot clear stairway so the walking surface is 6 feet. The overall dimension is 7 feet with roughly a 6
inch kind of curb along each side of the stairway.
Scharfenberg: Thank you.
Mike McGarvey: So it’s a fairly substantial structure but not over sized by any means. Would allow
somebody I think to, you know if they’re walking a bike or something up or down that, they could
probably do that without any issues. Again that is concrete construction. We do have basically a series of
steps and landings to facilitate that to give plenty of space for individuals to rest in making that trip up or
down. Again given the fact that there’s 30 feet of grade change there it’s a fairly lengthy stair. One of the
other things that we will be, to note is that if we go back to the prior sheet, one of the other things that
happens to be located in this outlot is a city watermain. There’s a pump station is located up in this area
so there’s a watermain that runs along here and then runs along the Highway 41 right-of-way. The City
has requested, the City Engineer has requested that we put some, do the uneven cover that will result from
the stairs and more likely, a greater potential of frost getting to a deeper depth or encroaching on that
watermain. We are going to be placing insulation underneath the stairway to prevent that freezing from
happening. So that is generally it. One thing I did show in the details. The trail construction will
typically be a 10 foot wide trail with a, that will include a 6 inch Class V aggregate base and 3 inches of
bituminous surface so the trail itself will be a bituminous trail. And so with that I’d open it up to any
questions that you may have.
Daniel: Great, thank you Mike. Let’s open it up. Steve. Any questions?
Scharfenberg: Todd I know that we had talked about before with the median down at Chaska Road that
there was going to potentially be I think similar to what we have on Powers with the flashing lights. Is
that still going to happen or not?
Hoffman: No. That grant application was submitted by our engineering division and it was not awarded.
Scharfenberg: Okay. That’s all I have.
Daniel: Okay. Elise.
Ryan: I just have serious concerns about the location of the crossing out from Chaska Road. You know I
don’t have a solution and I don’t like to present problems without, or giving some sort of solution or
suggestion but just the way that people when they’re coming off Highway 7 and the acceleration going
down 41 and kids or people crossing there, I just think it’s a very dangerous location for people to cross
or to encourage people to cross and I don’t know if I had thought possibly closer to the intersection but I
just would like to discuss it a little more because I do have some serious concerns about that location.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Whether there’s a crosswalk or flashing lights, I just think it’s a very busy and a dangerous location I
think.
Mike McGarvey: I think as Todd mentioned it was, and was asked about earlier that I think the City is
well aware of concerns there. As I mentioned one of the things that we are doing is providing that
pedestrian refuge space which is one of the, really one of the most effective ways of minimizing conflict
by allowing, again allowing a pedestrian to cross the travel way one direction at a time so not having
somebody say looking to the south and paying attention to traffic there and then trying to get across at
that location, essentially 4 lanes of traffic with you know and still having to pay attention to traffic in both
directions so allowing them to cross the northbound lanes and then look, look for vehicles coming in the
southbound direction and crossing that single lane is a much more, much safer way to go. Certainly if we
can, funds can be found to enhance that with some sort of signal or flashing lights you know I think that
should continue to be pursued. I think there are some, if I understand correctly there was some very
specific comments, reasons why the proposal was not awarded money this time that could be addressed. I
believe the fact that the school doesn’t have a formal safe crossing to school plan was the primary
comment that came back so if the school was to initiate that, there seems to be a fairly high likelihood that
the funding would, the project would be grant, more grant ready in a next funding cycle.
Ryan: I mean can things be done to the road? Not speed bumps but you know something done in the
road to slow people down, especially if you’re coming, going south. Not only the people coming off
Highway 7 but my concern is people coming out of that, where that Walgreen’s and that you know little
strip mall. They’re looking back over their shoulder and looking to see cars coming towards them and not
looking ahead at people possibly crossing the road so I just, I have that concern with particularly the
southbound direction of that road so I don’t know, I mean it’s something to continue to work on, whether
with the school or whomever but just to make sure that that’s safe as this moves forward.
Hoffman: Can I provide some response? We absolutely share, staff shares your concern and I don’t think
it’s our position that we’re presenting this as a safe crossing but as an alternative as a crossing point for
those who choose to use it. I would think citizens in this area would agree that this is a high volume area
of our community as far as traffic, and this is, presents a choice for those who want to cross, both as
adults and then as parents who, you know they have to make a decision when they’re going to allow their
children, at what age or at what stage of maturity they’re going to allow their children to cross there to
utilize the facilities at the school or not. If you characterize, even if we had the lights, if we’re successful
in getting those lights, this is, the nature of that highway is going to be a situation where pedestrians are
not going to assume that Highway 7 traffic is going to stop, and I don’t think we’re even going to get
Highway 7 traffic to stop for pedestrians at that location, whether you have lights or not. Providing a safe
refuge I think is about, under this design without lighting, without pre-warning signals is about the best
that we can do. But all pedestrians are not going to utilize that crossing. It’s only going to be those that
select that crossing as a destination because of the recreation that they do or the jobs that they’re traveling
to and it’s not going to be a pleasant crossing. It’s going to be a high speed, high volume crossing that
people are going to have to make a choice to cross and use appropriate caution when doing so, so we
agree. Staff concurs with your concerns and we are not presenting this in any way as the safe crossing or
a safe pedestrian crossing. It is just a choice for citizens in the area. People who want to utilize that area.
It’s probably the best scenario that you could present with the current conditions. I think that safe refuge
does allow for that, but there’s no stop light there and you know, but there is the trail. The residents to the
west are coming up that trail and that’s really the reason for the location for this crossing. The pedestrian
stripe down at the school is just in response to you know past school administrators and parents saying to
the highway department, of the State of Minnesota we have to have some semblance of crossing and from
what I understand in most cases either a principal or a teacher went down there for the few kids that
would use that crossing and try to facilitate that crossing but that’s still difficult to do as an individual or
as a school administrator trying to get traffic to behave on Highway 7 is not going to be something you’re
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
going to be able to handle. The only way that the school crossed to go to the Minnewashta Regional Park
for any type of school activities was to have a highway patrol there facilitating some kind of crossing and
even that got to be precarious and they started to avoid doing that. So the trail and the pedestrian
underpass farther south is really going to be what the school is looking for to get into the regional park
but kids are going to use this trail crossing to get back into their neighborhoods but it’s going to be you
ththth
know 9 grade, 10 grade, 11 grade, or well these are middle school kids so it’s going to be middle
school kids, their parents that choose to allow them to cross there.
Scharfenberg: Todd correct me, just so I’m clear. For people to access coming north on, from Highway 7
onto 41, for them to access the park they have to cross at that intersection, right? And then.
Hoffman: Go down.
Scharfenberg: Go up on the east hand side. Is there any way to keep that trail on the west or a portion of
the trail from the park down there so people don’t have to cross?
Hoffman: I think the best alternative is going to be many people are going to use the Herman Field
connection.
Scharfenberg: Right, right.
Hoffman: And use that as a, continue to use that to get into the regional park. To build a second section
of trail, it’s a pretty long section of trail and then the regional park would have to grade another entryway
into their park system so that’s something that they were not interested in taking a look at.
Scharfenberg: Okay.
Daniel: Alright, thanks Elise. Tom.
Tom Kelly: No additional questions.
Daniel: Peter.
Aldritt: I just have a few. On the stairs, were the residents notified about these going in and they were up
to date on the plans on what was the connection? Are lots taken right now?
Hoffman: Correct. Yeah, the two lots on either side, the owner of those lots was aware. As stated in my
introductory comments, this right-of-way was taken as a part of the platting of the project so, and the
neighborhood was aware of it. At least those that were aware, take a look at what was going on. I don’t
have the picture but there was a sign on the lot, I think it said park or trail outlot. Something like that.
That was posted there from the time of the development.
Mike McGarvey: And the owner of those two, I know that one of those two properties attended at least
two if not a couple more of the public meetings and individual property owner meetings that were held for
the County project.
Aldritt: Oh okay.
Daniel: Thank you Peter.
Aldritt: Yeah.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Daniel: Brent.
Carron: I guess I’ve got a couple questions here for you just starting back down on the Chaska Road
crossing. Is there plans to have crosswalk bars through there like up on.
Mike McGarvey: Across Chaska Road?
Carron: Yeah. No, no, sorry. Across 41.
Mike McGarvey: Yes.
Carron: There will be crosswalk bars at those two areas.
Mike McGarvey: Correct.
Carron: Because I see that there’s one at the school entrance but then also going across there as well? I
didn’t see them on the plans.
Mike McGarvey: If you look at the detailed plans.
Daniel: Oh there they are.
Carron: Oh are they? Okay. Okay. That will help. I with Elise as well have concerns with funneling
our traffic across that spot, especially because that area up at, just north of there at the school entrance is
kind of like the hit point if you will. It’s at the top so there’s not a lot of reaction time for people that are
going northbound. And then like with people coming southbound, speeding up the hill, and unfortunately
the safe zone in the middle is a great idea. I don’t know if it’s going to help and I guess I don’t know if
future funds are, would future funds if we would be able to Todd get money for a pedestrian crosswalk
light or a signalized pedestrian crosswalk, would that come from park and rec fund or how would that
work?
Hoffman: The application was for State safety dollars for safe crossing and that would be the source that
we would seek out again and so Paul Oehme, our City Engineer/Public Works Director and I will
continue to work with the school. Get their safe cross the school plan in place. Get that re-application in
but you know in my mind that is going to notify you know the vehicles in another fashion but it’s still
going to be the responsibility of the pedestrian to figure out is that car going to stop just because there’s a
warning light there or not or are they going to take a look. The other thing, as a pedestrian in these type
of situations what you find is that if one car stops, the next one won’t and so again as a pedestrian you
always have to, you can’t just trust the first one in front because the next one’s coming around. We see
that in major intersections. Pedestrian vehicle intersections in our community, but we will resubmit for
that application and that’s for the warning lights and the pre-warning lights and the warning lights above
the intersection so, and if successful those will go in and be a compliment to what is being included here
in this application.
Mike McGarvey: I would just to piggy back on that a little bit, I think again the median island cuts down
in addition to providing a pedestrian refuge. It does prevent somebody from going around a stopped
vehicle if somebody chooses to stop for a pedestrian as they should. The other thing to note is that in the
evaluation that we did looking at alternatives in addition to the pedestrian refuge, the lighted signals and
we looked at a couple different alternatives in assisting the City with the development of that safe route to
school application. In all those scenarios we would still do this base work of the pedestrian median and
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
then there’s nothing that would in our current design that would preclude us coming back and doing the
sign…
Carron: Okay. Alright, if we can go to the staircase then. Todd question for you. Since the staircase
would be on City owned property, who would take care of the maintenance and would there be shoveling
during the winter or who would take care of the sod growing in the springtime? K
Hoffman: A typical scenario where we have two neighboring residents, it’s really up to their choice. If
they want to mow it to the edge of the staircase as a part of their lawn, they can do that. If not, then the
City would come out and maintain the right-of-way or the outlot. Mow it or maintain it. Weed whip it,
those type of things. In the winter, by city ordinance we would be required to come out and shovel this
walkway just as any resident would be required to shovel a walkway so that would be a requirement of
the City to come and do that. And there are, that being said there are certain sections of trail we do not
plow and maintain in the winter because of the hilly nature but in this case that would have to be
something that would be addressed by the commission or the City Council if we wanted to not maintain
that in the wintertime. By our current city code we would be required to come out and maintain that just
as a property owner would. Private property owner.
Carron: Okay. Mike, the contours out there with the recent building of the property to the north have
changed since this plan was put together.
Mike McGarvey: Correct.
Carron: Is it the goal, if when these are installed to match the contour?
Mike McGarvey: Correct.
Carron: As much as possible.
Mike McGarvey: We did go out with staff and do kind of a rough survey at the time that some of that, the
new construction was ongoing. In order to assist that property owner in making sure that they had their
grades at least relatively close to where we were going to be the stairs. We took a couple shots so that we
can get as close as we can. We’re going to have, obviously have to field verify that but the intent is with
the design that we have right now that it should match fairly, pretty closely with what’s there to minimize
the grading that we have to do.
Carron: The other question I have is the restoration for that. I know the homeowner to the north just
sodded and did some landscaping there and the restoration, what you had planned, it looks like a seed and
a disc mulch.
Mike McGarvey: We probably, you know given the fact that when we initiated that, that was a vacate lot.
I think one of the final tweaks we need to make here is probably adding an item for sod so that we can
replace that in kind.
Carron: Okay. Rail height. Must be a typo but 2 foot 10.
Mike McGarvey: Yes, that must be a typo. That would be higher than that.
Carron: Okay. And then there’s two rails? Put one on each side?
Mike McGarvey: Yes.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Carron: Okay. You’re not I guess an electrician but do you have any idea what, what were we, maybe
Todd you could say too, what was the total dollar amount of let’s say if we did get that safe zone access
where we got the funding to put in that light. What was that dollar amount for?
Hoffman: I don’t recall what the application was.
Mike McGarvey: I can’t off the top of my head, I can’t say. Yeah I’m sorry I can’t answer that but that
should be readily available to Todd.
Carron: The only reason why I’m asking is, if it’s brought up or depending upon the commission, I think
the estimate that you had given was about $65,000 for the staircase and if the $65,000 might be able to
cover that safe zone, I guess there’s money there in the park fund if not. If the staircase is a go or not a
go. Just wanted to bring that up so. That’s all I had. Thanks.
Daniel: Okay, thank you Brent. Mr. Kelly. Cole.
Cole Kelly: Todd, are the middle school administration for this crossing or what’s their feeling on it?
Hoffman: I can’t speak for an individual administrator but the school district is in favor of this project.
In favor of the crossing and they have not officially reviewed it that I’m aware of. It’s not on their
property but they’re in support of improving pedestrian connections and access in this area at any level.
They were involved in the safe route to school application. They’ll be involved in the reapplication and
it’s a challenging site due to the proximity of the highway and the speeds and the volume of traffic at that
location. Anybody that uses that intersection is aware of what goes on at that particular location and the
route off of Lake Lucy to Highway 7 is used a lot. Chaska Road is used quite a bit and so people are up
there driving in that area. They recognize the volumes but this school supports the ability to access their
students to the west and other families to the west.
Cole Kelly: Thank you.
Ryan: Todd, one more question. Was it ever looked at a crossing at, coming off of Lake Lucy? Since
that’s such a major intersection anyways, doing something more with that intersection. People coming,
turning, having that be a crosswalk or some sort of an intersection off of Lake Lucy onto 41?
Hoffman: It was not due to the fact that on the west side there was not planned improvements for
pedestrians to the west side. At this location that existing neighborhood connection is in place. The
proximity of Chaska Road is in place. The connector to Highway 7. There is a signalized crossing of
Highway 7 so many Shorewood residents are going to access the crossing at Highway 7, and again that’s
not a kind of choice that you make on a recreational walk on a daily basis but the desirability of the
school grounds, what’s going on at that campus and then also the off leash dog park in the regional park is
going to get people to cross the intersection so that’s going to be the first crossing. Then you’re going to
have to negotiate this second crossing at Chaska Road to get down to the regional park and make their
way into the underpass. Into those facilities. I’m confident people are going to do it but it’s, you know
it’s one of those choices that as a pedestrian you have to be aware of what you’re putting yourself into and
what kind of a traffic environment you’re entering each time you use that as a crossing.
Daniel: My only comment Todd is, or question excuse me is, on the island are there any other indicators,
flags or anything that either on the north side or south side, just to kind of reflective.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Hoffman: There’s signage and there’s no doubt that the presence of that is going to be a visual reminder
to motorists that this is you know a pedestrian crossing and that we have a pedestrian safe refuge so it’s
going to be, provide some of that visual identity to motorists.
Mike McGarvey: The painted, or the painted median will be restriped and then you can see here that
there will be some signage that will be added to that median to make it more visible.
Daniel: Any thoughts on fixed posts at the crosswalk points?
Mike McGarvey: Like a bollard type?
Daniel: Yep.
Mike McGarvey: We have not looked at that. I’m not sure what MnDOT would, I’m not sure that
MnDOT would bite into that idea having a kind of pretty significant obstruction there from a just day to
day safety standpoint for the vehicles but it’s something we could inquire about.
Daniel: Okay. I’m looking at it more from you know, I like the idea of having the island. I think given
the alternatives that we do have, it’s something better than nothing and you’re absolutely right. Only
having to deal with one direction at a time makes sense but I’m also trying to envision myself being a
pedestrian stuck on an island with cars zipping past me at 50 miles an hour in all reality. Having
something there besides just 6 inches of concrete or whatever the height may be, or 8 inches of concrete
puts me above, is more of a comfort feeling and I realize some of these pillars, or something like that, that
you know I guess I’d be more concerned about the safety of a pedestrian at any given point if there
happened to be something there. That gives them something, I mean I can’t expect concrete barriers all
the way across. You know that creates a true island or protection barrier but at least possibly something
that gives some level of comfort that they have, that if something does happen they’ve at least got
something there to slow them down or slow the vehicle down because like I said, I do know and I agree
with Elisa’s analysis on, at least you know coming out of southbound, coming out of 7 going southbound
on 41 that cars certainly do accelerate and there’s also a merging point right there as well. And then
during school hours gets awfully crazy between Chaska Road and the school so again I think this is,
certainly given the circumstances, a good idea but again if there’s something that we can investigate as far
as some sort of like I say a pillar or something, corner pillars at the crosswalk that, and again maybe
MnDOT may not want that just from a safety perspective for the vehicles but I just think more
importantly if they have a fighting chance if you’ve got to stand in that crosswalk don’t if something
happens. So that’d be my only comments or questions if we could take a look at. Outside of that I think
it’s certainly I think it’s going to be something well needed. My children, or at least my oldest child, as I
found out going to his friend’s house, that’s, they cut right across 41 at the school entrance and they bike
all the way down over to the school and right across and as I found that out my, you know it’s like, you
know it’s like playing frogger in my mind you know for him but they’ve done it quite often but this is
again something I’d feel a heck of a lot more comfortable with if, if they had that alternative to go visit
their friends so. With the exception of like I said a cross, an actual lighted section or crosswalk is about
as good as it’s going to get so some of that. Very good design and appreciate the work. Thank you. Any
other questions?
Hoffman: Hear from the audience members.
Daniel: Yes. Certainly if there are anybody from the audience wants to comment on the project, please
step up to the podium and state your name and your address and feel free.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Matt Chambers: Thank you very much commissioner. My name’s Matt Chambers. I live on Highover
Drive right across from where the proposed staircase is going. One question I just have and some of the
other residents in the neighborhood have is, the choice to use a staircase versus just a flat trail. Most of us
have small children. My daughter’s wheelchair bound so we’re not able to use that staircase and would
have to hence, if I understand correctly, go down to Lake Lucy Road just to come right back when this is
right across our street so just a question as to if there’s a possibility for just a flat trail, whether it’s next to
the staircase or instead of the staircase.
Daniel: And it’s been a while since I’ve seen the grade on that Todd. I think the only alternative based
off the grade and the length, the height and the length as far as what you have to deal with would be a
switchback right?
Hoffman: Yeah. If we were to build a trail that would meet you know standards for grade we would have
to have a significant switchback. It’s not that we don’t have steep trails in the community but this, do you
know the grade? The overall grade. It’s 30 feet in that period of time so it’s going to be a pretty much
straight down. It would not be accessible for, in the case of a wheelchair, it’s going to be a difficult
traverse and as a community I’m just not sure we would want to put a person in a bike or a person in a
wheeled type of piece of equipment on a steep downhill grade that’s going to end up at a T intersection at
the bottom and so it’s not that people aren’t going to walk their bikes or go along the side of this thing.
We think that’s going to happen but it’s just from a really the design is about responsibility. What is the
responsible thing to build in this particular situation and from our analysis and our work with our
consultants and with staff it’s the responsible thing to do here is to build a staircase instead of a trail just
due to the nature of the grade.
Daniel: And we have something like that similar in my neighborhood Matt, to be honest with you. Over
in Curry Farms on that west side, and you’ve probably seen it Dale. Coming off the back side of Bretton
or Teton. You go straight down and that’s before all the probably changes in ordinance. I don’t think that
would be planned nowadays. They don’t even, I don’t think you guys plow it do you Dale? Yeah, it just
turns into a sliding hill in the winter because it is such a steep grade and you can really get cooking.
Actually the best thing they ever did was clear the trees off from this landing area because it kind of
curves at the bottom so at least eliminate the possibility for somebody running into it but I mean that’s
probably about the same grade I’m going to say as far as what the steps, if not maybe even a little bit
steeper so.
Hoffman: There’s a similar situation in the next neighborhood over where that stairway that goes up to
the highline trail so that’s a similar situation. Where we got to that point, the highline trail was built and
we would have liked to have just run it down to the street and be just straight asphalt but again just isn’t
responsible and indicate to people that they’re going to be able to go down that grade. There’s no federal
money involved in the staircase but if there was you could not build a trail. They wouldn’t fund that. 5%
grade is max grade for a trail in any type of situations. This far exceeds that.
Daniel: Thank you Matt. Appreciate it. If there’s anyone else, please feel free. We welcome you.
Jill Zafke: My name is Jill Zafke, thank you. I am the new homeowner in Highover Drive and I just,
pardon me I haven’t heard all the plans and I just, I’m being inquisitive. The intent for us as homeowners
to take care, if we choose to take care of that grass, the intent of this is for Highover Drive and the
community to use it, correct?
Hoffman: Correct.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Jill Zafke: Down into the park. If it’s going to be majority families and children using it, I’m just
thinking about strollers, bikes, they’re going to be going around so the maintenance of that grass, is that
going to be our choice as well or is the City going to maintain the bikes and the strollers and everything
going down onto it?
Hoffman: Yeah, that’s yet to be seen. The volume of traffic here, you’re going to see some kind of a, it
just all depends on if the bikes go down the center or if they’re going to ride down the side. If they ride
down the side, there’s going to be some type of you know goat trail or a dirt trail that’s going to be
created but the volume of traffic here I just don’t think is going to lead to some kind of an erosion gully
situation but that’s something yet to be seen and so if you mow up to the edge, that’s your choice.
Otherwise we will come out and mow to your lot line and then meet you at that location so. It’s one of
those situations where in most cases the property owner, it’s going to be about you know 7 to 10 feet.
Most neighbors just mows right up to the trail or right up to the public improvement.
Jill Zafke: I just have one concern. If it is for the community and for our children, I don’t see it being
usable for kids and families as much as you might think it could be.
Hoffman: And again, we don’t disagree with that. Basically this is a choice. You’re either going to, a
runner’s going to run up and down this stairway. A walker’s going to walk up and down this stairway. If
you have any other type of vehicle with you, you’re either going to have to carry it or go down along the
side but basically what the stairway is, it’s preserving the public right-of-way in a way that the public can
use it. If you don’t put some type of improvement in there, either a trail, a hard surface trail if it was
appropriate, or a stairway, the public doesn’t have the ability to utilize the set aside right-of-way to make
that connection so again we don’t disagree that a stairway is not ideal. We don’t like to build stairways in
a public trail system but in this case the best choice that we have so again that’s for the commission to
decide if you want to build that. Make that recommendation, that’s what staff is recommending.
Daniel: Yeah I think Jill it’s real easy, especially given the situation that the two options are either going
far south, all the way down over to Longacres and make the trail connection there or go you know 2 1/2
blocks, 3 blocks down to Lake Lucy Road and then come all the way back if there is, and I think the
intent at the time is obviously creating a public right-of-way so that people from other areas of Longacres
can make that trail connection there.
Jill Zafke: Right.
Daniel: But yeah I mean you’re right. Given the situation, especially as a homeowner right there, it’s real
easy because I can go right in my back yard and end up in the trail but I also, we have to still look at the
bigger picture as well for people across the street.
Jill Zafke: Oh no, and I don’t mind that a trail is going in there. I just want it to be usable for everyone.
Daniel: Yes. Yeah, oh absolutely and like I said unfortunately if this were any other situation you know
it wouldn’t be, given the grade in which we have to deal with it wouldn’t be as big a concern so.
Jill Zafke: Right. Right.
Daniel: But thank you. Appreciate it.
Jill Zafke: Thank you.
Daniel: Okay, if there’s anyone else. If not.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Carron: Before we make a motion I just, my first of all talk here just to let the rest of my commissioners
know, from the feedback I’ve been getting from my neighbors and what I’ve been hearing and talking to
quite a bit of them about, it’s up to you guys what to you want to do but I’m going to vote against the
staircase portion if we can, I don’t know if you can break that up but I would much rather see the money
be spent on something that’s useful, and I don’t know if this can even work either but the intersection
down on Chaska Road rather than a staircase that could be used, could be not used and a lot of my people,
my neighbors are either against it or indifferent. Very indifferent. I don’t think I’ve heard one person
that’s completely for it so that’s my piece. I guess I’m just letting everyone else know. If it goes for the
motion it passes I’ll probably vote it down, that’s the reason.
Ryan: I would also like to add, when we decide I think it would be a great idea if we could possibly break
it up in two because I know we had this conversation when we were doing, working on the numbers
before. There was opposition with the staircase and then it go put back into our budget so that’s one piece
of it but the second part, if we, or when we make a motion in terms of the crosswalk area, I think because
we all have so many concerns I think we should clarify or specify that we would like some more work or
research done about safety lights. The things that you brought up Chair Daniels about some of the, what
were they blockades or.
Carron: Bollards.
Ryan: Yeah, just for protection so if we could add that those things should be included in it in order to be
approved, I’d like to include that in the motion as well.
Tom Kelly: So would you be able to, if I can elaborate. If we’re able to break these two would you then
be, would you prefer to table the motion on the median until more research could be done or approve the
motion and then hope that research could be, more research could be done?
Ryan: I would like more research to be done.
Tom Kelly: Okay.
Ryan: I’d like to have that be part of it. That those pieces would be included. Whether it’s getting the
grant from the State from, you know in conjunction with the school district but I think that those pieces
are critical into developing this crosswalk because even though it’s, we’re not encouraging it as a safe
place to cross, people are going to cross there and I think we should do our due diligence in making sure
that it is safe.
Scharfenberg: So Elise just to comment on what Tom said, instead of making it part of the motion are
you okay with just saying to encourage staff to continue to pursue safety grants for that intersection.
Ryan: Right.
Scharfenberg: Okay.
Daniel: That will work for me.
Tom Kelly: I had a question too about the neighborhood meetings. What kind of feedback did you get?
Did you get the same ambivalent type of attitude about the staircase at the neighborhood meetings as
well?
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Hoffman: We’ve heard from both in favor and against so there’s a variety of reasons for both. The
people that are in favor of it say that it has been identified as a community feature from the time they
purchased their lot, they were expecting that it would go in. The people that don’t want it, again that’s for
a variety of reasons as well.
Tom Kelly: Does a crushed limestone trail alleviate some of the concerns about a grade because you have
a little more friction?
Hoffman: You couldn’t maintain a crushed limestone trail in that grade.
Tom Kelly: It would just wash on down to the street.
Daniel: It would wash out. Because the alternative with nothing there is that the City still owns the
property and one way or another…the only difference is the steps.
Carron: As a visual it’s going to be tough to mow period. That’s how steep it is.
Ryan: But the concern will also be that you’re going to get, it is very steep and people will take bikes and
strollers around the side of it and then it would be a very dangerous, a dangerous path to take. ‘
Daniel: Okay.
Tom Kelly: So if I can summarize, it’s almost like we’re encouraging by building a path, we’d be
encouraging people to do something unsafe and by building a median we’re also encouraging people to
do something that’s unsafe.
Ryan: In my view, yes.
Daniel: I guess Tom to a certain extent I would disagree that we’re encouraging people to do something
unsafe because right now.
Tom Kelly: They’re doing it anyways?
Daniel: They’re doing it anyways.
Tom Kelly: Okay. Okay.
Daniel: So if anything we’re providing a safety alternative. I mean you know it’s a lesser degree of evil
in essence.
Tom Kelly: Okay.
Daniel: The alternative would be you know to, the ideal alternative would be to have some sort of
controlled intersection but that’s I don’t think feasible given the funding that’s available.
Carron: With the Carver County project that’s going on in this trail extension I think it’s a must that this
takes place just to provide that access and that concrete median in the middle is going to help huge. The
problem is that I just me personally it’s kind of like doing a project to have’s. You wish you could do
more now but we can’t and if it could all be done now as far as a, even a lit intersection for night, for
people crossing at night would be a big benefit I think.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Daniel: Not our alternative. Okay. But I do like Steve your, obviously some sort of motion needs to be
made to get this project moving forward. I mean we’re looking at essentially two components. One
being really the crosswalk from the County perspective. I mean looking at what the County really wants
from us. They’re not too concerned about the staircase. You know for all practical purposes but more
importantly the crosswalk. I do like Steve your comments that we need to, that as part of the motion we
should probably put something in there for both the, for the City to continue to pursue some sort of safety
grant or safety alternatives at that point prior to construction but I guess what the City will want from us
and what the council ideally will want from us as well is some sort of motion to get this project moving
forward to the next level. Whether or not we break this up into two different motions, one having to
pertain to specifically the steps and one has to do with the rest of the project because I don’t know if the
two necessarily have to be dependent upon each other. If there’s any disagreement on that. I’m just
trying to come up with some alternatives here so we can get something moving because like I said I
would hate to see us have any issues with regards to stairways delaying this issue, so.
Tom Kelly: Do we need a motion to break this into two?
Daniel: I would certainly recommend it because that seems the direction that we’re going because right
now as it stands I don’t want to create any other delays on this project because obviously at the end of the
day we want to make sure this is what, so the council has something to approve.
Hoffman: Commissioner Kelly you would just offer up two different motions if that’s the way you
wanted it.
Tom Kelly: Oh, okay.
Daniel: Yes.
Tom Kelly: So you wouldn’t have to make a third motion to create, okay.
Daniel: Well right now as it stands we have, I mean the proposed motion by the City is to approve the
project period. As well as under one statement, including the staircases. You know going back to the
staircases, my point being that if there is no staircase there, that is City owned property providing two
residential properties that eventually will or will not get used. And what I mean is, if it’s not used, if we
just leave it as blank, we do not pass this motion, will it get used anyways? And how safe is that and
that’s something we need to take into consideration as well because at some point or another somebody,
kids are going to figure out that that’s wide open property. The signs will stay there. It will be property,
City property and eventually they will be using it and how safe is that alternative as well? So that’s
something to take in consideration as far as you’re thinking about the staircases. So, and I’m just looking
at it from a practical standpoint.
Hoffman: And you’re making a recommendation to the City Council. What the City Council chooses to
do is up to them.
Daniel: Is up to them, exactly so. I guess why don’t we break this into two. One motion pertaining to
the staircase. The other pertaining to the proposed project for highway, Trunk Highway 41 with Carver
County including the, again some comments with regards to pursuing additional safety measures at the
safety island so, if anyone wants to try to figure that one out and put it together please. Let’s start first
with the trunk highway 41 project.
Cole Kelly: I’ll make a motion that the Park and Rec Commission recommend to the City Council that
we approve the plans and specifications for the Trunk Highway 41 trail extension and island. We also
16
Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
strongly suggest that the City move to look for more safety options to help out the pedestrians that cross
this area.
Daniel: Okay. Second?
Ryan: Second.
Cole Kelly moved, Ryan seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City
Council approve the plans and specifications for the Trunk Highway 41 trail extension and island
and strongly suggested that the City look for more safety options to help with the pedestrian
crossing. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0.
Daniel: Alright, why don‘t we go to the next motion which would be to approve the stairway connection
from Highover to the Highway 41 trailway system.
Cole Kelly: I’ll make a motion that we approve the staircase from, is it Highover Drive to, how did you
state that?
Daniel: Trunk Highway 41.
Cole Kelly: To Trunk Highway 41.
Daniel: Trail project.
Cole Kelly: To the trail project. To the City Council.
Daniel: Okay. All in favor.
Scharfenberg: How about a second?
Daniel: Oh second, thank you Steve.
Scharfenberg: Second.
Cole Kelly moved, Scharfenberg seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend
the City Council approve the staircase from Highover to the Trunk Highway 41 trail system. All
voted in favor, except for Carron and Ryan who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to
2.
RECREATION PROGRAM REPORTS.
NOVEMBER 2011 CHANJAM EVALUATION AND TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY
EVALUATION.
Ruegemer: Okay just wanted to, just wanted to, I’m not, in the interest of time tonight I’m not going to
go into all the full reports of what the ChanJam evaluation and the tree lighting ceremony evaluation so
I’ll entertain questions at this time.
Hoffman: It was a magical evening if you missed it.
Carron: Comments, it looks great out there.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Ruegemer: Yeah it does.
Hoffman: The Hollywood snow was prompted right at 3:00 as ordered.
Daniel: You couldn’t ask for it now considering most of it’s gone.
Hoffman: Yeah.
Daniel: Actually almost all of it was gone.
Hoffman: Yeah it was spectacular.
Daniel: Jerry and again, any questions or comments with regards to the tree lighting ceremony or
ChanJam?
Hoffman: The fall ChanJam and the location seemed to work great. The new high school, utilizing the
high school. The sound system. The lighting so it seems to be a great new venue for that activity and the
kids really appreciated and enjoyed it.
Daniel: And Jerry in your mind, and certainly I’ll let you go ahead and comment as well. How was the
attendance compared to when it was at?
Ruegemer: You know I’d say roughly about the same. You know we definitely have room to grow with
that. Hopefully you know with the change of venue that word will get out now that, like Todd said it was
really a phenomenal place for the students to have that opportunity to perform on that stage with the
sound system and the lighting show. Just all the amenities that go along with that particular location. It
really was a great event that we’re hoping can certainly grow and build upon the excitement of that new
venue.
Daniel: Okay. Any concerns at all trying to expand it beyond Minnetonka, Chanhassen, Chaska, Holy
Family?
Ruegemer: No, not really. I mean it just certainly is time to look to alternatives to grow the event and
whether that means going to other venues as well, we’re going to certainly take a look at those options in
the future.
Daniel: Okay. Great, are there any other questions? If not, let’s go to Jodi and talk about the recreation
center. What’s going on there?
RECREATION CENTER REPORT.
Sarles: Commissioner Daniels, I submitted a report. You have the updates on the rec center but again in
the interest of time if you want to ask questions of me on specifics, please feel free.
Hoffman: If you’ve been there you notice we have a great big bow on our wall and that’s getting on
Thursday. The kids push on the separator between the two gyms and if they get enough of them, I’m not
sure it must take at least 40 or 50 of them.
Sarles: It had to take a good amount.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Hoffman: They push it out so the school is going to repair that and then take a look at a permanent fix
where that can no longer happen in the future.
Daniel: What happened?
Hoffman: The center wall gets bowed out. A couple-3-4 feet pushed out.
Sarles: It’s a moveable wall and so.
Hoffman: They push on it and they push it out and then it kinks and then you get a big bow in your wall
so.
Sarles: And the feet dropped into the gym.
Daniel: And they think it’s fun.
Hoffman: So there’s always something to be working on.
Sarles: There’s always something.
Daniel: You know those accordion style ones like they have, you know separating the school or
separating the classrooms.
Sarles: Yes.
Hoffman: Punch card sales going well?
Sarles: Yes, very well.
Hoffman: There’s an annual December sale. Buy 40 and get a 10 punch free and patrons look forward to
that.
Sarles: They’ll save, buy them all in December and use them all the way through until next December so
it’s a big sale.
Daniel: Alright. Questions for Jodi please. If not, thank you for the report Jodi. Appreciate it.
SENIOR CENTER REPORT.
Daniel: Hi Susan.
Bill: Hi. I’ll ditto Jodi. In order to save time you know I’ll entertain questions. I will say one quick
thing. We were down. Most activities moved to the rec center during the parking lot reconstruction. So
far it’s been wonderful. We haven’t had the over crowding that summer and the library presents you
know a little more challenges but it’s been great so we’re glad to be back to normal. Busy. It’s been
really busy but a good busy so I’ll leave it at that and if you have any questions I’ll be happy to answer
them.
Hoffman: They had their last trip Friday to the.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Bill: To the casino, well to Mystic Lake to the show. No gambling. It was, we thought of that but
Chaska, we always do our trips with Chaska but we took two buses. We took 82 people and Joan and I
from Chaska just decided we don’t get paid enough to try to find 82 people in a casino so it’s a wonderful
show. If you’ve ever been to the showroom at Mystic Lake, we saw Cirque Holidazzle. It was
wonderful. Wonderful. One thing I’ll mention just quickly. We had our holiday party at the rec center.
115 people. Mayor Furlong presented a plaque to Community Bank. They’ve co-sponsored the event for
the last 6 years. The CEO and President were there. Wonderful time. We had the cast of Chaska Valley
Family Theater White Christmas presenting. We had people there selling tickets. It was wonderful so
people really enjoyed it.
Daniel: Great, thank you Susan. Questions. If not, thank you Susan.
PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE REPORT.
Daniel: Mr. Gregory, good evening.
Gregory: Good evening. Just like to add one thing along with my report. We did start flooding a week
ago Monday. We got, we actually got in 7 shifts. I mean we were able to flood the midnight shifts that
week and Thursday and Friday it was cold enough that we were actually able to run two trucks, the
evening and overnight. We weren’t looking too bad come Friday morning or Saturday morning but from
there it’s gone downhill. Right now and that I looked at the 10 day forecast and I don’t see any flooding
nd
days in the next 10 day forecast. The 22 gives us a cold of 16 degrees at night but 10 days out I don’t
believe any of that stuff that far out so like I say right now it’s not looking real good.
Daniel: Get a late start to the season.
Gregory: Yep, it’s going to be a late start this year.
Sarles: I can attest that there was a number of hockey players out enjoying the ice on Saturday. They
were right in front of the ice rinks closed sign.
Daniel: What was left of it.
Gregory: So we did get use out of it already then.
Daniel: That’s good. Are you counting that on the statistics too?
Gregory: The fellow that was flooding Friday night early and that he said he chased them off of just
about every rink and that where he was flooding in the hockey rinks there were kids out there skating
already and that so.
Daniel: I know you may not like that but I love to hear news like that. That just means the kids are eager.
Gregory: No like I say we look forward to getting the ice and that as soon as we can and that and the
guys are, we’re willing to work more for that but we need the cold weather so.
Daniel: You know quick question for you Dale. On the safety island there, obviously there’s going to be
responsibility for the City to maintain, plow during the winter. Any concerns, I mean that would take into
consideration the equipment that you guys will be using to plow as well? Because you’ll have to plow
right through there.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Gregory: We want it definitely wide enough and that so we can take a plow right through there.
Daniel: Yeah, and now is that plow with a truck?
Gregory: That’s plowed with a truck.
Daniel: And is the width wide enough to take both in account the plow all the way to the end of the truck
so there’ll be fine either end?
Hoffman: They’ll be fine with a pick-up.
Daniel: Okay. But there’s no concern on that end?
Hoffman: Or a snowblower. No. It’s designed to be maintained and we’ll be maintaining it. The State
won’t be involved in that.
Daniel: No, no but what I’m saying though is, you know you get up there and realize oh shoot the only
way we can do this is shoveling.
Hoffman: No.
Daniel: Okay. And steps, you’re volunteering for that?
Gregory: I guess I did the way it sounded.
Hoffman: Probably not Dale but one of his crew.
Gregory: The thing of it is though too and that now, like we’re talking grass up to it and that people
maintaining it. We’re probably not going to be mowing it every week and being able to maintain it in the
same manner that they do for grass. We don’t mow our trails and that stuff and that on a weekly basis
and that stuff so, like I say it’s probably not going to look like somebody’s yard or lawn.
Hoffman: No, and that’s why most homeowners choose to do it on their own schedule. It’s another 5 or
6 or 7 feet to the asphalt trail and in some cases they choose not to. It’s typically wider or more remote
destinations but if they choose not to we’ll be probably weed whipping it 4 or 5 times a year.
Daniel: Okay.
Gregory: Any questions?
Daniel: No, that should do it. Thank you Dale.
Hoffman: A previous commission has adopted a set schedule so if we don’t open the ice rinks by X date
we don’t open them at all and that’s in January.
thth
Ruegemer: Yeah, like the 13-14, somewhere in that range.
thth
Hoffman: Yeah, 13 or 14 so there is.
Daniel: A cutoff date huh.
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Hoffman: Yeah, there is cutoff dates for when we just stop and because on the other end, not only the
cold but the length of day is what helps these ice rinks and once you start gaining daylight in mid-
February, you start to lose the ability to maintain those rinks so it’s just one of those things where if it
thth
becomes really cold, let’s say it doesn’t become cold until the 10 or 15 and we hit that cutoff point
we’re just not going to go at it because it costs a lot of time and money to put those rinks into place and
then they might only last 3 weeks to 4 weeks so we’ll give you a copy of that in your next admin packet
so you can take a look at it.
Daniel: I’m fully confident we’ll be in good ice making form at that point.
Hoffman: Hopefully by New Year’s.
Daniel: Yes. Alright, anything you want to highlight?
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS.
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS.
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
Daniel: Todd, is there anything you want to highlight in the administrative packet?
Hoffman: Just excited to see Shorewood working on their trail plan and those are important connections.
Galpin Boulevard, Highway 7, Powers Boulevard. Encouraged to see that they’re working on them and
we’ll be happy to.
Daniel: How realistic is that from their perspective? I mean are they, especially with Mill Street and
Powers.
Hoffman: Yeah it’s based on their plans it’s priority one so it’s the first one they’d like to go after. The
challenge is going to be the walls once you hit Excelsior you’ve got the two steep walls on either side
with the homes on top of them. That’s going to take a significant bit of engineering to.
Daniel: Oh, right on Mill Street there?
Hoffman: Just before you hit the bridge, you’ve got the two concrete walls.
Daniel: No, that’ll be, that’ll be great. I can’t say it enough so I mean there’ll be…connected with
Chaska and Eden Prairie now and Shorewood I mean officially so, to their trail system. Alright, great.
Ryan: Before we.
Daniel: Please go ahead Elise.
Ryan: I was just going to say before we adjourn I think Jerry should come back out here and so we can
give him a round of applause for his big award that he won.
Scharfenberg: I had one question in the administrative packet. That last item with the City of Eden
Prairie. It sounds like they’re prepared then fairly soon to extend that trail underneath 212 and then go
behind the Lakeview apartments, is that how it’s going to go all the way to Lake Riley Road?
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
Hoffman: Correct.
Scharfenberg: Okay.
Hoffman: So that will be place and then they’re also prepared, once we hit our border to connect from the
bridge to our border.
Scharfenberg: Right.
Hoffman: The bridge under 212.
Scharfenberg: Okay.
Hoffman: And that’s a, their project is two steps. Two phases. They’ve already built to the 212 bridge.
Now they’re going to build south down to Lake Riley Boulevard.
Scharfenberg: Yeah, I rode my bike this last fall all the way out to that dead end and it’s a nice trail.
Hoffman: Isn’t that nice?
Scharfenberg: Yeah, it’s very nice.
Hoffman: Yeah. They were fortunate to have some, I think it was 2005 referendum money left over.
That’s a nice little funding source so.
Scharfenberg: And I don’t know if Todd, I know Tom’s a runner with that place where they mowed, you
know that’s all trail now all the way to the, to their park at that end. It’s a very nice.
Daniel: So they actually have planned for that now?
Scharfenberg: Yeah you can go all the way to Dell now, on our Rice Marsh trail, you can ride all the way
to Dell now. That’s all completely done.
Daniel: Wow.
Scharfenberg: All the way. It’s a very nice connector. I mean it’s so nice to ride along that trail now and
come in behind and then you can you know connect up to Dell and ride Dell south up to Bearpath and
then hit the LRT and take that all the way down too so it’s a wonderful loop now to have that, that Eden
Prairie has completed that and then when they get this other part done, that will be done all the way to
Lake Riley now, that will be very nice.
Hoffman: And MnDOT will sign on our portion, on our half of Rice Marsh south of the lake. They’ll
sign a limited use permit to allow us to build that trail. They’ll also sell the property to us. There’s two
of them there for about a million and a quarter for the two of them but we’d be more interested in building
the trail and just putting those on a limited use permit type of arrangement so. We have $10,000 in this
year’s CIP to start that, continue that planning effort and we have some neighbors who are supportive of
the trail project. We have some neighbors that are not supportive of that trail connection. In particular
the one is the log home that’s right at the beginning of the trail. That trail will go between their log home
and the lake so, again it’s going to be one of those situations where you’re going to have citizens standing
in front of you saying they don’t want this public trail but that easement’s been in place since the 1960’s
so it’s going to be one of those situations where as commissioners you’re individually going to have to
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Park and Recreation Commission – December 13, 2011
decide if you’re going to represent individual property owner concerns or the concerns of the larger
community and the trail plan so that’s always a difficult decision for everyone to make but you’ll be
seeing more of that planning in 2012 and then we have to find a funding source and we have to get our
side going and get it completed. Very exciting. It’s a 3 mile trail loop around Rice Marsh Lake and the
nature and the proximity and just the overall feel of that particular section of trail is like nothing else that
we have in the city currently.
Daniel: Great, thank you Todd. Alright, want to go ahead and make a motion.
Carron: Motion to adjourn.
Daniel: Second?
Aldritt: Second.
Carron moved, Aldritt seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned at
8:00 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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